Podcasts about paul oh

Inside the Gold Dome: Legislative Recap with Senator Shawn Still and Paul Oh Welcome to this episode of Voice of Business, presented by the Gwinnett Chamber! Today, we're diving into the 2025 Legislative Session with guest host Paul Oh, Vice President of Public Policy and External Affairs at the Gwinnett Chamber, and special guest Senator […] The post Episode 9: Inside the Gold Dome: Legislative Recap appeared first on Business RadioX ®.

Paul Oh, Sunday 30 March 2025

Send us a textPaul has been a dedicated public educator for over 24 years. His goal is to blend the love for education with a passion about finances to help lay out a strategic plan to assist teachers with their retirement goals.  Many financial advisors and supplemental retirement plans have both outrageously high fees mixed with limited knowledge about Ohio (or other state) pension plans. Paul believes that teachers deserve fair, specific and detailed assistance from someone who understands the profession. Listen in as Paul shares his journey from investing as a teen to now assisting his district with low cost investing options like Vanguard for his teachers.  In addition, Paul is speaking to prospective teachers at local colleges and sharing financial independence so they don't make the mistakes that most of us made starting out! CONTACT PAUL: https://www.gwteachers.com/Intelligent Investment Today - The Warren Buffett WayINTELLIGENT INVESTMENT TODAY, a Shortcast "mini-podcast" series each around ten...Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

Paul Oh, Sunday 23 March 2025

Paul Oh, Sunday 16 March 2025; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsRF-PfUIVM

Paul Oh, Sunday 9 March 2025, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBXNZf4-GhM

Paul Oh, Sunday 2 March 2025,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kfJz8jYrX4

Paul Oh, Sunday 09 February 2025https://youtube.com/live/dglvayLYaG4

Paul Oh, Sunday 26 January 2025 https://youtube.com/live/qDNaIe_Rlk8

Paul Oh, Sunday 19 January 2025 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqHgOuxAYQA

Paul Oh, Sunday 12 January 2025 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XenFNQQG9_k

Paul Oh, Sunday 5 January 2025 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHwCMUDnfz8

Paul Oh, Sunday 29 December 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjrTcAZonhY

Paul Oh, Sunday 22 December 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fdcjigcyq8

Paul Oh, Sunday 1 December 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yROLfxYYV10

Paul Oh, Sunday 24 November 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WsIwCx7wGM

Paul Oh, Sunday 10 November 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGUMbgQD3is

In this episode, Dr. Mathew Bennett sits down with Dr. Lauren Jenkinson, dietitian Anneke Hobson, and Dr. Paul Oh to explore how active transport and climate-friendly diets can enhance both patient health and environmental sustainability. Together, they dive into the science behind sustainable practices, discussing how walking, cycling, and plant-based diets benefit cardiovascular health while reducing our ecological footprint. Join us for an enlightening conversation on simple, impactful changes that make a difference—for our patients and our planet.

Paul Oh, Sunday 20 October 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IOkV-uVl1E

Paul Oh, Sunday 13 October 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOQQDJqI6lQ

Paul Oh, Sunday 6 October 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EviEIsqKCpw

Paul Oh, Sunday 22 September 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-40ugNKtSw

Paul Oh, Sunday 8 September 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxqOLM6LRA

We're back! Let's Talk about CBT has been on hiatus for a little while but now it is back with a brand-new host Helen Macdonald, the Senior Clinical Advisor for the BABCP. Each episode Helen will be talking to experts in the different fields of CBT and also to those who have experienced CBT, what it was like for them and how it helped. This episode Helen is talking to one of the BABCP's Experts by Experience, Paul Edwards. Paul experienced PTSD after working for many years in the police. He talks to Helen about the first time he went for CBT and what you can expect when you first see a CBT therapist. The conversation covers various topics, including anxiety, depression, phobias, living with a long-term health condition, and the role of measures and outcomes in therapy. In this conversation, Helen MacDonald and Paul discuss the importance of seeking help for mental health struggles and the role of CBT in managing anxiety and other conditions. They also talk about the importance of finding an accredited and registered therapy and how you can find one. If you liked this episode and want to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us at @BABCPpodcasts on X or email us at podcasts@babcp.com. Useful links: For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. I'm really delighted today to be joined by Paul Edwards, who is going to talk to us about his experience of CBT. And Paul, I would like to start by asking you to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you. Paul: Helen, thank you. I guess the first thing it probably is important to tell the listeners is how we met and why I'm talking to you now. So, we originally met about four years ago when you were at the other side of a desk at a university doing an assessment on accreditation of a CBT course, and I was sitting there as somebody who uses his own lived experience, to talk to the students, about what it's like from this side of the fence or this side of the desk or this side of the couch, I suppose, And then from that I was asked if I'd like to apply for a role that was being advertised by the BABCP, as advising as a lived experience person. And I guess my background is, is a little bit that I actually was diagnosed with PTSD back in 2009 now, as a result of work that I undertook as a police officer and unfortunately, still suffered until 2016 when I had to retire and had to reach out. to another, another psychologist because I'd already had dealings with psychologists, but, they were no longer available to me. And I actually found what was called at the time, the IAPT service, which was the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies. And after about 18 months treatment, I said, can I give something back and can I volunteer? And my life just changed. So, we met. Yeah, four years ago, probably now. Helen: thank you so much, Paul. And we're really grateful to you for sharing those experiences. And you said about having PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and how it ultimately led to you having to retire. And then you found someone who could help. Would you like to just tell us a bit about what someone might not know about being on the receiving end of CBT? Paul: I feel that actual CBT is like a physiotherapy for the brain. And it's about if you go to the doctors and they diagnose you with a calf strain, they'll send you to the physio and they'll give you a series of exercises to do in between your sessions with your physio to hopefully make your calf better. And CBT is very much, for me, like that, in as much that you have your sessions with your therapist, but it's your hard work in between those sessions to utilize the tools and exercises that you've been given, to make you better. And then when you go back to your next session, you discuss that and you see, over time that you're honing those tools to actually sometimes realising that you're not using those tools at all, but you are, you're using them on a daily basis, but they become so ingrained in changing the way you think positively and also taking out the negativity about how you can improve. And, and yeah, it works sometimes, and it doesn't work sometimes and it's bloody hard work and it is shattering, but it works for me. Helen: Thank you, Paul. And I think it's really important when you say it's hard work, the way you described it there sounds like the therapist was like the coach telling you how to or working with you to. look at how you were thinking and what you were doing and agreeing things that you could change and practice that were going to lead to a better quality of life. At the same time though, you're thinking about things that are really difficult. Paul: Yeah. Helen: And when you say it was shattering and it was really difficult, was it worth it? Paul: Oh God. Yeah, absolutely. I remember way back in about 2018, it would be, that there was, there was a fantastic person who helped me when I was coming up for retirement. And we talked about what I was going to do when I, when I left the police and I was, you know, I said, you know, well, I don't know, but maybe I've always fancied being a TV extra and, That was it. And I saw her about 18 months later, and she said, God, Paul, you look so much better. You're not grey anymore. You know, what have you done about this? And it was like, she said I was a different person. Do I still struggle? Yes. Have I got a different outlook on life? Yes. Do I still have to take care of myself? Yes. But, I've got a great life now. I'm living the dream is my, is my phrase. It is such a better place to be where I am now. Helen: I'm really pleased to hear that, Paul. So, the hard work that you put into changing things for the better has really paid off and that doesn't mean that everything's perfect or that you're just doing positive thinking in the face of difficulty, you've got a different approach to handling those difficulties and you've got a better quality of life. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, I had some great psychologists before 2016, but I concentrated on other things and we dealt with other traumas and dealt with it in other ways and using other, other ways of working. I became subjected to probably re traumatising myself because of the horrendous things I'd seen and heard. So, it was about just changing my thought processes and, and my psychologist said, Well, you know, we don't want to re traumatise you, let's look at something different. Let's look at a different part and see if we can change that. And, and that was, very difficult, but it meant that I had to look into myself again and be honest with myself and start thinking about my honesty and what I was going to tell my psychologist because I wanted to protect that psychologist because I didn't want them to hear and talk about the things that I'd had to witness because I didn't think it was fair, but I then understood that I needed to and that my psychologist would be taken care of. Which was, which was lovely. So, I became able to be honest with myself, which therefore I can be honest with my therapist. Helen: Thank you, Paul. And what I'm hearing there is that one of your instincts, if you like, in that situation was to protect the therapist from hearing difficult stuff. And actually the therapist themselves have their own opportunity to talk about what's difficult for them. So, the person who's coming for therapy can speak freely, although I'm saying that it's quite difficult to do. And certainly Post Traumatic Stress Disorder isn't the only thing that people go for CBT about, there are a number of different anxiety difficulties, depression, and also a wider range of things, including how to live well with a long term health condition and your experience could perhaps really help in terms of somebody going for their first session, not knowing what to expect. As a CBT therapist, I have never had somebody lie down on a couch. So, tell us a little bit about what you think people should know if they are thinking of going for CBT or if they think that somebody they care about might benefit from CBT. What's it like going for that first appointment? Paul: Bloody difficult. It's very difficult because by the very nature of the illnesses that we have that we want to go and speak to a psychologist, often we're either losing confidence or we're, we're anxious about going. So I have a phrase now and it's called smiley eyes and it, and it was developed because the very first time that I walked up to the, the place that I had my CBT in 2016, the receptionist opened the door and had these most amazing engaging smiley eyes and it, it drew me in. And I thought, wow. And then when I walked through the door and saw the psychologist again, it was like having a chat. It was, I feel that for me, I know now, I know now. And I've spoken to a number of psychologists who say it's not just having a chat. It is to me. And that is the gift of a very good psychologist, that they are giving you all these wonderful things. But it's got to be a collaboration. It's got to be like having a chat. We don't want to be lectured, often. I didn't want to have homework because I hated homework at school. So, it was a matter of going in and, and talking with my psychologist about how it worked for me as an individual, and that was the one thing that with the three psychologists that I saw, they all treated me as an individual, which I think is very, very important, because what works for one person doesn't work for another. Helen: So it's really important that you trust the person and you make a connection. A good therapist will make you feel at ease, make you feel as safe as you can to talk about difficult stuff. And it's important that you do get on with each other because you're working closely together. You use the word collaboration and it's definitely got to be about working together. Although you said earlier, you're not sure about the word expert, you're the expert on what's happening to you, even though the therapist will have some expertise in what might help, the kind of things to do and so there was something very important about that initial warmth and greeting from the service as well as the therapist. Paul: Oh, absolutely. And you know, as I said earlier, I'm honoured to speak at some universities to students who are learning how to be therapists. And the one thing I always say to them is think about if somebody tells you their innermost thoughts, they might never have told anybody and they might have only just realised it and accepted it themselves. So think about if you were sitting, thinking about, should I put in this thesis to my lecturer? I'm not sure about it. And how nervous you feel. Think about that person on the other side of the, you know, your therapy room or your zoom call or your telephone call, thinking about that. What they're going to be feeling. So to get through the door, we've probably been through where we've got to admit it to ourselves. We then got to admit it to somebody else. Sometimes we've then got to book the appointment. We then got to get in the car to get the appointment or turn on the computer. And then we've got to actually physically get there and walk through. And then when we're asked the question, we're going to tell you. We've been through a lot of steps every single time that we go for therapy. It's not just the first time, it's every time because things develop. So, you know, it's, it's fantastic to have the ability to want to tell someone that. So when I say it's fantastic to have the ability, I mean, in the therapist, having the ability to, to make it that you want to tell them that because you trust them. Helen: So that first appointment, it might take quite a bit of determination to turn up in spite of probably feeling nervous and not completely knowing what to expect, but a good therapist will really make the effort to connect with you and then gently try to find out what the main things are that you have come for help with and give you space to work out how you want to say what you want to say so that you both got , a shared understanding of what's going on.So your therapist really does know, or has a good sense of what might help. So, when you think about that very first session and what your expectations were and what you know now about having CBT, what would you say are the main things that are different? Paul: Oh, well, I don't actually remember my first session because I was so poorly. I found out afterwards there was three of us in the room because the psychologist had a student in there, but I was, I, I didn't know, but I still remember those smiley eyes and I remember the smiley eyes of the receptionist. And I remember the smiley eyes of my therapist. And I knew I was in the right place. I felt that this person cared for me and was interested and, you know, please don't think that the, the psychologist before I didn't feel that, you know, they were fantastic, but I was in a different place. I didn't accept it myself. I had different boundaries. I wanted to stay in the police. I, you know, I thought, well, if I, you know, if I admit this, I'm not going to have my, my job and I can't do my job. So a hundred percent of me was giving to my job. And unfortunately, that meant that the rest of my life couldn't cope, but my job and my professionalism never waned because I made sure of that, but it meant that I hadn't got the room in my head and the space in my head for family and friends. And it was at the point that I realized that. It wasn't going to be helpful for the rest of my life that I had to say, you know what, I'm going to have to, something's going to have to give now. And unfortunately, that was, you know, my career, but up until that point, I'm proud to say that I worked at the highest level and I gave a hundred percent. Now I realised that I have to have a life work balance rather than a work life balance, because I put life first. And I say that to everybody have a life work balance. It doesn't mean you can't have a good work ethic. It doesn't mean you can't work hard. It's just what's important in that. So what's the difference between the first session then and the first session now? Well, I didn't remember the first session. Now, I know that that psychologist was there to help me and there to test me and to look at my weaknesses. Look at my issues, but also look at my strengths and make me realize I'd got some because I didn't realise I had. Helen: That's really important, Paul, and thank you for sharing what that was like. I really appreciate that you've been so open and up front with me about those experiences. Paul: So let's turn this round to you then Helen as a therapist And you talked about lots of conditions, and things that people could have help with seeing a CBT therapist because obviously I have PTSD and I have the associated anxiety and depression and I still deal with that. What are the other things that people can have help with that they, some that they do have heard, have heard of, but other things that they might not know can be helped by CBT? Helen: Well, that's a really good question. And I would say that CBT is particularly good at helping people with anxiety and depression. So different kinds of anxiety, many people will have heard, for example, of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, OCD, or Generalized Anxiety Disorder where people worry a lot, and it's very ordinary to worry, but when it gets out of hand, other things like phobias, for example, where the anxiety is much more than you'd expect for the amount of danger people sometimes worry too much about getting ill or being ill, so they might have an illness anxiety. Those are very common anxiety difficulties that people have. CBT, I mean, you've already mentioned this, but CBT is also very good for depression. Whether that's a relatively short term episode of really low mood, or whether it's more severe and ongoing, then perhaps the less well known things that CBT is good for. For example, helping people live well if they have a psychotic disorder, maybe hearing voices, for example, or having beliefs that are quite extreme and unusual, and want to have help with that. It's also very good for living with a long term health condition where there isn't anything medical that can cure the condition, but for example, living well with something like diabetes or long term pain. Paul: interestingly, you spoke about phobias then, Is the work that a good therapist doing just in the, the consulting room or just over, the, this telephone or, or do you do other things? I'm thinking of somebody I knew who had a phobia of, particular escalators and heights, and they were told to go out and do that. You know, try and go on an escalator and, they managed to get up to the top floor of Selfridges in Birmingham because that's where the shoes were and that helped. But would you just, you know, would you just talk about these things, or do you go out and about or do you encourage people to, to do these with you and without? Helen: Again, that's, that's a really good point, Paul, and the psychotherapy answer is it depends. So let's think about some examples. So sometimes you will be mostly in the therapist's office or, and as you've mentioned, sometimes on the phone or it can be on a video call. but sometimes it's really, really useful to go out and do something together. And when you said about somebody who's afraid of being on an escalator, sometimes it really helps to find a way of doing that step by step and doing it together. So, whether that's together with someone else that you trust or with the therapist, you might start off by finding what's the easiest escalator that we've got locally that we can use and let's do that together. And let me walk up the stairs and wait for you and you do it on your own, but I'll be there waiting. Then you do it on your own and come back down and meet me. Then go and do it with a friend and then do it on your own. So, there's a process of doing this step by step. So you are facing the fear, you are challenging how difficult it is to do this when you're anxious. But you find a place where you can take the anxiety with you successfully, so we don't drop you in the deep end. We don't suddenly say, right, you're going all the way to the fifth floor now. We start one step at a time, but we do know that you want to get to the shoes or whatever your own personal goal and motivation is there's got to be a good reason to do it gives you something to aim towards, but also when you've done it, there's a real sense of achievement. And if I'm honest as a therapist, it's delightful for me as well as for the person I'm working with when we do achieve that. Sometimes it isn't necessarily that we're facing a phobia, but it might be that we're testing out something. Maybe, I believe that it's really harmful for me to leave something untidy or only check something once. We might do an experiment and test out what it's like to change what we're doing at the moment and see what happens. And again, it's about agreeing it together. It's not my job to tell somebody what to go and do. It's my job to work with somebody to make sure that they've got the tools they need to take their anxiety with them. And sometimes that anxiety will get less, it'll get more manageable. Sometimes it goes away altogether, but that's not something I would promise. What I would do is work my very hardest to make the anxiety so that the person can manage it successfully and live their life to the full, even if they do still have some. Paul: And, and for me, I think one of the things that I remember is that my, you know, my mental health manifested itself in physical symptoms as well. So it was like when I was thinking about things, I was feeling sick, I was feeling tearful. and that's, that's to be expected at times, isn't it? And, and even when you're facing your fears or you're talking through what you're experiencing. It's, it's, it's a normal thing. And, and even when I had pure CBT, it can be exhausting. And I said to my therapist, please. Tell people that, you know, your therapy doesn't end in the session. And it's okay to say to people, well, go and have a little walk around, make sure you can get somebody to pick you up or make sure you can get home or make sure you've got a bit of a safe space for half an hour afterwards and you haven't got to, you know, maybe pick the kids up or whatever, because that that's important time for you as well. Helen: That's a really important message. Yes, I agree with you there, Paul, is making sure that you're okay, give yourself a bit of space and processing time and trying to make it so that you don't have to dash straight off to pick up the kids or go back to work immediately, trying to arrange it so that you've got a little bit of breathing space to just make sure you're okay, maybe make a note of important things that you want to think about later, but not immediately dashing off to do something that requires all your concentration. And I agree with you, it is tiring. You said at the beginning it's just having a chat and now you've talked about all the things that you actually do in a session. It's a tiring chat and tiring to talk about how it feels, tiring to think about different ways of doing things, tiring to challenge some of the assumptions that we make about things. Yes it is having a chat, but really can be quite tiring. Paul: And I think that the one thing that you said in there as well, you know, you talk about what would you recommend. Take a pen and paper. Because often you cannot remember. everything you put it in there. So, make notes if you need to. Your therapist will be making notes, so why can't you? And also, you know, I think about some of the tasks I was given in between my sessions, rather than calling it my homework, my tasks I was given in between sessions to, I suffered particularly with, staying awake at night thinking about conversations I was going to have with the person I was going to see the next day and it manifested itself I would actually make up the conversations with every single possible answer that I could have- and guess what- 99 times out of 100 I never even saw the person let alone had the conversation. So it was about even if I'm thinking in the middle of the night, you know, what I'm going to do, just write it down, get rid of it, you know, and I guess that's, you know, coming back again, Helen to put in the, the ball in your court and saying, well, what, what techniques are there for people? Helen: Well, one of the things that you're saying there about keeping a note and writing things down can be very useful, partly to make sure that we don't forget things, but also so that it isn't going round and round in your head. The, and because it's very individual, there may be a combination of things like step by step facing something that makes you anxious, step by step changing what you're doing to improve your mood. So perhaps testing out what it's like to do something that you perhaps think you're not going to enjoy, but to see whether it actually gives you some sense of satisfaction or gives you some positive feedback, testing out whether a different way of doing something works better. So there's a combination of understanding what's going on, testing out different ways of doing things, making plans to balance what things you're doing. Sometimes there may be things about resting better. So you said about getting a better night's sleep and a lot of people will feel that they could manage everything a bit better if they slept better. So that can be important. Testing out different ways of approaching things, asking is that reasonable to say that to myself? Sometimes people are thinking quite harsh things about themselves or thinking that they can't change things. But with that approach of, well, let's see, if we test something out different and see if that works. So there's a combination of different things that the therapist might do but it should always be very much the, you're a team, you're working together, your therapist is right there alongside you. Even when you've agreed you're going to do something between sessions, it's that the therapist has agreed this with you. You've thought about what might happen if you do this and how you're going to handle it. And as you've said, sometimes it's a surprise that it goes much better than we thought it was going to. So, so we're testing our predictions and sometimes it's a surprise. It's almost like being a scientist. You're doing experiments, you're testing things out, you're seeing what happens if you do this. And the therapist will have some ideas about the kind of things that will work. but you're the one doing, doing the actual doing of it. Paul: And little things like, you know, I, I remember, I was taught a lovely technique and it's called the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, technique about when you're anxious. And it's about, I guess it's about grounding yourself in the here and now and not, trying to worry about what you're anxious about so you try and get back into what is there now. Can you just explain that? I mean, I know I know I'm really fortunate. I practice it so much. I probably call it the 2-1 So could you just explain how what that is in a more eloquent way than myself? Helen: I think you explained that really well, Paul, but what we're talking about is doing things that help you manage anxiety when it's starting to get in the way and bringing yourself back to in the here and now. And for example, it might be, can I describe things that I can see around me? Can I see five things that are green? Can I feel my feet on the floor? Tell whether it's windy and all of those things will help to make me aware of being in the here and now and that the anxiety is a feeling, but I don't have to be carried away by it. Paul: And there's another lovely one that, I, you know, when people are worrying about things and, it's basically about putting something in a box and only giving yourself a certain time during the day to worry about those things when you open the box and often when you've got that time to yourself. So give yourself a specific time where you, you know, are not worrying about the kids or in going to sport or doing whatever. So you've got yourself half an hour and that's your worry time in essence. And, you know, I use it on my phone and it's like, well, what am I worrying about? I'll put that in my worry box and then I'll only allow myself to look at that between seven and half past tonight. And by the time I've got there, I'll be done. I'm not worrying about the five things. I might be worrying slightly about one of them, but that's more manageable. And then I can deal with that. So what's the thought behind? I guess I've explained it, but what, what's the psychological thought behind that? And, and who would have devised that? I mean, who are these people who have devised CBT in the past? Because we haven't even explored that yet. Helen: Well, so firstly, the, the worry box idea, Paul, is it's a really clever psychological technique is that we can tell ourselves that we're going to worry about this properly later. Right now, we're busy doing something else, but we've made an appointment with ourselves where we can worry properly about it. And like you've said, if we reassure ourselves that actually, we are, we're going to deal with what's going on through our mind. It reassures our mind and allows it not to run away with us. And then when we do come to it, we can check, well, how much of a problem is this really? And if it's not really much of a problem, it's easier to let it go. And if it really is a problem, we've made space to actually think about, well, what can I do about it then? so that technique and so many of the other techniques that are part of Cognitive and Behavioural psychotherapies have been developed in two directions, I suppose. In one direction, it's about working with real people and seeing what happens to them, and checking what works, and then looking at lots of other people and seeing whether those sorts of things work. So, we would call that practice based evidence. So, it's from doing the actual work of working with people. From the other direction, then, there is more laboratory kind of science about understanding as much as we can about how people behave and why we do what we do, and then if that is the case, then this particular technique ought to work. Let's ask people if they're willing to test it out and see whether it works, and if it works, we can include that in our toolkit. Either way, CBT is developed from trying to work out what it is that works and doing that. So, so that's why we think that evidence is important, why it's important to be scientific about it as far as we can, even though it's also really, really important that we're working with human beings here. We're working with people and never losing sight of. That connection and collaboration and working together. So although we don't often use the word art and science, it is very much that combination Paul: And I guess that's where the measures and outcomes, you know, come into the science part and the evidence base. So, so for me, it's about just a question of if I wanted to read up on the history of CBT, which actually I have done a little. Who are the people who have probably started it and made the most influence in the last 50 years, because BABCP is 50 years old now, so I guess we're going back before that to the start of CBT maybe, but who's been influential in that last 50 years as well? Helen: Well, there are so many really incredible researchers and therapists, it's very hard to name just a few. One of the most influential though would be Professor Aaron T. Beck, who was one of the first people to really look into the way that people think has a big impact on how they feel. And so challenging, testing out whether those thoughts make sense and experimenting with doing things differently, very much influenced by his work and, and he's very, very well known in our field, from, The Behavioural side, there've been some laboratory experiments with animals a hundred years ago. And I must admit nowadays, I'm not sure that we would regard it as very ethical. Understanding from people-there was somebody called BF Skinner, who very much helped us to understand that we do things because we get a reward from them and we stop doing things because we don't or because they feel, they make us feel worse. But that's a long time ago now. And more recently in the field, we have many researchers all over the world, a combination of people in the States, in the UK, but also in the wider global network. There's some incredible work being done in Japan, in India, you name it. There's some incredible work going on in CBT and it all adds to how can we help people better with their mental health? Paul: and I think that for me as the patient and, and being part of the BABCP family, as I like to, to think I'm part of now, I've been very honoured to meet some very learned people who are members of the BABCP. And it, it astounds me that, you know, when I talk to them, although it shouldn't, they're just the most amazing people and I'm very lucky that I've got a couple of signed books as well from people that I take around, when I do my TV extra work. And one of them is a fascinating book by Helen Macdonald, believe it or not on long term conditions that, that I thoroughly recommend people, read, and another one and another area that I don't think we've touched on that. I was honoured to speak with is, a guy called, Professor Glenn Waller, who writes about eating disorders. So eating disorders. It's one of those things that people maybe don't think about when they think of CBT, but certainly Glenn Waller has been very informative in that. And how, how do you feel about the work in that area? And, and how important that may be. I know we'll probably go on in a bit about how people can access, CBT and, you know, and NHS and private, but I think for me is the certain things that maybe we need to bring into the CBT family in NHS services and eating disorders for me would be one is, you know, what are your thoughts about those areas and other areas that you'd like to see brought into more primary care? Helen: Again, thank you for bringing that up, Paul. And very much so eating disorders are important. and CBT has a really good evidence base there and eating disorders is a really good example of where somebody working in CBT in combination with a team of other professionals, can be particularly helpful. So perhaps working with occupational therapists, social workers, doctors, for example. And you mentioned our book about persistent pain, which is another example of working together with a team. So we wrote that book together with a doctor and with a physiotherapist. Paul: Yeah, yeah. Helen: And so sometimes depending on what the difficulties are, working together as a team of professionals is the best way forward. There are other areas which I haven't mentioned for example people with personality issues which again can be seen as quite severe but there is help available and at the moment there is more training available for people to be able to become therapists to help with those issues. And whether it's in primary care in the NHS or in secondary care or in hospital services, there are CBT therapists more available than they used to be and this is developing all the time. And I did notice just then, Paul, that you said about, whether you access CBT on the NHS and, and you received CBT through the NHS, but there are other ways of accessing CBT. Paul: That was going to be my very next question is how do we as patients feel, happy that the therapist we are seeing is professionally trained, has got a, a good background and for want of a phrase that I'm going to pinch off, do what it says on the tin. But do what it says on the tin because I, I am aware that CBT therapists aren't protected by title. So unfortunately, there are people who, could advertise as CBT therapist when they haven't had specific training or they don't have continual development. So, The NHS, if you're accessing through the NHS, through NHS Talking Therapies or anything, they will be accredited. So, you know, you can do that online, you can do it via your GP. More so for the protection of the public and the making sure that the public are happy. What have the BABCP done to ensure that the psychotherapists that they have within them do what they say it does on the tin. Helen: yes, that's a number of very important points you're making there, Paul. And first point, do check that your therapist is qualified. You mentioned accredited. So a CBT psychotherapist will, or should be, Accredited which means that they can be on the CBT Register UK and Ireland. That's a register which is recognised by the Professional Standards Authority, which is the nearest you can get to being on a register like doctors and nurses. But at the moment, anyone can actually call themselves a psychotherapist. So it's important to check our register at BABCP. We have CBT therapists, but we have other people who use Cognitive and Behavioural therapies. Some of those people are called Wellbeing Practitioners that are probably most well known in England. We also have people who are called Evidence Based Parent Trainers who work with the parents of children and on that register, everybody has met the qualifications, the professional development, they're having supervision, and they have to show that they work in a professional and ethical way and that covers the whole of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. So do check that your therapist is on that Register and feel free to ask your therapist any other questions about specialist areas. For example, if they have qualifications to work particularly with children, particularly with eating disorders, or particularly from, with people from different backgrounds. Do feel free to ask and a good therapist will always be happy to answer those questions and provide you with any evidence that you need to feel comfortable you're working with the right person. Paul: that's the key, isn't it? Because if it's your hard-earned money, you want to make sure that you've got the right person. And for me, I would say if they're not prepared to answer the question, look on that register and find somebody who will, because there's many fantastic therapists out there. Helen: And what we'll do is make sure that all of those links, any information about us that we've spoken in this episode will be linked to on our show page. Paul, we're just about out of time. So, what would you say are the absolute key messages that you want our listeners to take away from this episode? What the most important messages, Paul: If you're struggling, don't wait. If you're struggling, please don't wait. Don't wait until you think that you're at the end of your tether for want of a better phrase, you know, nip it in the bud if you can at the start, but even if you are further down the line, please just reach out. And like you say, Helen, there's, there's various ways you can reach out. You can reach out via the NHS. You can reach out privately. I think we could probably talk for another hour or two about a CBT from my perspective and, and how much it's, it has meant to me. But also what I will say is I wish I'd have known now what, or should I say I wish I knew then what I knew now about being able to, to, to open myself up, more than, you know, telling someone and protecting them as well, because there was stuff that I had to re-enter therapy in 2021. And it took me till then to tell my therapist something because I was like disgusted with myself for having seen and heard it so much. But actually, it was really important in my continual development, but yeah, don't wait, just, just, you know, reach out and understand that you will have to work hard yourself, but it is worth it at the end. If you want to run a marathon. You're not going to run a marathon by just doing the training sessions when you see your PT once a week. And you are going to get cramp, and you are going to get muscle sores, and you are going to get hard work in between. But when you complete that marathon, or even a half marathon, or even 5k, or even 100 meters, it's really worth it. Helen: Paul, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really grateful for you speaking with me and it's wonderful to hear all your experiences and for you to share that, to encourage people to seek help if they need it and what might work. Thank you. Paul: Pleasure. Thanks Helen.

Mike D recaps his epic weekend.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm off in San Diego this week, but don't think that I forgot about you! On today's episode, I discuss the following:Some unfair circumstances Charles Oliveira has been dealt ... again (00:52)Joe Rogan's assertion that Alexander Volkanovski is the No. 1 pound-for-pound fighter in the world (10:01)Why Michael Chandler looks more desperate with each passing day (17:00)Dillon Danis and how a win over Logan Paul could open up a world of opportunities (33:12)Plus, I tell tales about Sean Strickland's beat-up Hyundai, my time on "The Celebrity Apprentice," and my favorite hip-hop line of all time.Thank you to this episode's sponsor - VESSI - visit Vessi.com/chael & use code: CHAEL for 15% off 

I'm off in San Diego this week, but don't think that I forgot about you! On today's episode, I discuss the following:Some unfair circumstances Charles Oliveira has been dealt ... again (00:52)Joe Rogan's assertion that Alexander Volkanovski is the No. 1 pound-for-pound fighter in the world (10:01)Why Michael Chandler looks more desperate with each passing day (17:00)Dillon Danis and how a win over Logan Paul could open up a world of opportunities (33:12)Plus, I tell tales about Sean Strickland's beat-up Hyundai, my time on "The Celebrity Apprentice," and my favorite hip-hop line of all time.Thank you to this episode's sponsor - VESSI - visit Vessi.com/chael & use code: CHAEL for 15% off Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

“So what kind of ‘Christian' are you?”That's a question that many of us have probably been asked before. I remember that back in the early days when we were just getting started as a church, it seemed like I got asked that question all the time. I'd be talking with a neighbor or somebody, and I'd mentioned that we were planting a church, and naturally they'd want to know, “What kind of church? What kind of Christian are you?”That's a good question. It's obvious to everyone that there are lots of people and churches who call themselves Christians and they're all different, sometimes in major ways, sometimes in minor ways, and it can be confusing. So when we're talking to people unfamiliar with Christianity, we should be able to help them out.Where are we — where is our church — on the map of Christianity? One goal of this sermon is to answer that question — and that's because our passage today — Hebrews 8:7–13, which is mainly Jeremiah 31:31–34 — this passage, how you understand this passage, is a dividing line of minor theological differences among Christians.And you'll see what I mean when we get there, but before we do, I'd like to back way up and talk about major theological differences. What are the broadest possible differences among those who claim to be Christians? [That question starts way out here and then we're gonna funnel it down.First, let me pray:Father in heaven, thank you for your word, because your word is truth. This morning (and always) we ask, by your Holy Spirit, guide us in your truth for your glory, in Jesus's name, amen. Our Final AuthoritySo with this funnel, up here, the broadest differences among those who claim to be Christians has to do with how you order three sources of authority. Everyone who claims to be a Christian recognizes the authority of the Bible, church tradition, and human reason. That's common all across the board. The major differences emerge when it comes to which one of those authorities is the top authority. And this creates three basic categories:Here's the first: if you put church tradition on top it means that you don't deny the authority of the Bible or the role of human reasoning, but they're both subjected to church tradition. Church tradition is the final buck-stopper, which means you're highest appeal to matters of faith and practice is going to be the church itself through its counsels and history. This is the way it goes with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.The second category are those who claim to be Christians and put human reason as the top authority. They recognize that the Bible and church tradition have value, but ultimately, the most decisive factor when it comes to faith and practice is human reasoning, and the real question here is: “What makes most sense to the way the world thinks?” And the big problem with this category is that the way the world thinks is also called “the spirit of the age.” This category ends up always trying to accommodate or syncretize Christian truth with popular cultural views. This is the way it goes with liberal or progressive ‘churches.'This syncretism project really started back in the 18th century with the Enlightenment and then Darwin's evolutionary theory, and today this is mostly seen in views about anthropology and sexuality. For example, there are today whole denominations and churches who claim to be Christian but think it's okay to kill pre-born babies and mutilate children (basically they look just like the Democratic Party). How'd that happen? Because they put human reasoning (influenced by the spirit of the age) above the Bible as the top source of authority.Now the third category are those Christians who say the Bible is the top and final authority. They appreciate church tradition and human reason, but both are subjected ultimately to what the Bible says. If church tradition or human reason claim something that contradicts the Bible, the Bible wins.And sometimes that leads to Reformation, which is exactly what happened in the 16th century. There was the sell of indulgences and the false teaching of purgatory — Martin Luther was like: Where's that at in the Bible? What does the Bible say? Everything comes back to this Book!This category is largely considered Evangelical Protestant or Reformational, and what distinguishes this kind of Christian from the other categories is that they believe the Bible is the final authority for faith and practice. If somebody were to ask you what kind of church we are, a fine answer would be to say that we're this kind. This is a Bible-believing church. We are Bible-believing Christians. And I like that phrase. It's a good phrase.But now, get this: under this category of Evangelical Protestant and Bible-believing, right here in the funnel, it goes like this [spreads]. There's are lots of minor differences.Where is our church at here? Well, if you want to know in detail, you can go read our Elder Affirmation of Faith, but it's important to understand that at this point the disagreements within this category of Evangelical Protestant are good-faith disagreements about what the Bible says about secondary issues. Everyone here says the Bible is the final authority, it's just that some claim the Bible says this and the others claim the Bible says that. And Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant is the case in point. This is our passage today in Hebrews 8, and now I'd like to show you what we believe the Bible says here. Catching Up on ContextIn Chapter 8, let's start by looking at verse 6. To review the last couple weeks, remember that the writer of Hebrews has labored in Chapter 7 to show us that Jesus is our great high priest in the order of Melchizedek, and that makes him the guarantor of a better covenant. Because Jesus is our high priest we have a better salvation. The writer repeats this point again in Chapter 8, verse 6. Look at the words in verse 6: “But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.” Jesus mediates a better covenant because it's enacted on better promises — now, don't you think the writer should tell us what those better promises are?Let's keep reading. Verse 7: “For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says…” And then the writer gives us a long quote from Jeremiah 31:31–34 that describes that second covenant (called the new covenant). Here's the logic: The new covenant is enacted on better promises and what makes these promises better is how they contrast to the old covenant faults. The faults of the old covenant occasioned the need for a new covenant established on better promises (that's verse 7). But what were these faults of the old covenant that the new covenant solves? That's exactly what the writer starts to tell us in verse 8 in the Jeremiah 31 quote, but it's interesting because he doesn't say, “Here are the problems with the old covenant …” but he just states the new covenant. He gives the longest Old Testament quote in the New Testament, with basically no commentary. No milk and sugar here. This is straight black-coffee full quote — which is amazing because it implies that it should be obvious how the new covenant is better. It should be obvious to us how the old covenant faults are answered by new covenant better promises. Jeremiah 31:31–34 can stand on its own and tell us what was wrong with the old covenant and what's better about the new. There are three things to highlight here — three new covenant realities that make it better than the old covenant:1) The New Covenant targets the Old Covenant problem of unbelief and unfaithfulness.And this first point gets at the overarching difference between the new covenant and the old covenant. The main fault (the big problem) of the old covenant was the covenant unfaithfulness of Israel, God's covenant partners. That is precisely what the new covenant addresses. Look at verse 8. This is Jeremiah 31:31–32, “Behold, the days are coming, declares Yahweh,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israeland with the house of Judah,9 not like the covenant that I made with their fatherson the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.” So we know it's a new covenant, not like the old covenant. Well, how is it not like the old covenant? What's wrong with the old covenant? Verse 9: “For they [Israel] did not continue in my covenant,and so I showed no concern for them, declares Yahweh.” The problem with the old covenant was that God made the covenant with a people who were unfaithful. God's covenant partners could not keep the covenant. They broke the covenant, and they did it right away. It had only been a few months since God rescued the people from Egypt through amazing signs and wonders. It was only 40 days after they received the law. And what do they do? They start worshiping a golden calf. They right away showed themselves to be faithless.This is important, because it means we can't simply think of the old covenant as old, but also as broken. Now we know the covenant didn't just end there in the Book of Exodus, it continued on through the Old Testament, but it was broken from the start. It continued on with faults. Imagine a car that gets wrecked and beat up pretty badly, but it still runs, at least for now. It's got a couple spares tires, one headlight, the back windshield is busted out so it has a trash bag duct-taped over it. That's the old covenant basically right away. It's broken.And that fact is really the foremost reality of Israel's story as we come to the New Testament. It was super clear to the Old Testament prophets. Remember that these prophets carried out their prophetic ministry as they sat in the anticipation and ruins of God's judgment on Israel. That's where Jeremiah was when he prophesied these words. Jeremiah knew that the Babylonians were coming as God's judgment on Israel because they were covenant-breakers — and so God gave him a vision beyond that judgment to a future day when God would solve that primary problem. In one way, the entire Old Testament anticipates this. If there is one theme that's obvious in the Old Testament it's that humans are a mess — that's humans in general, and Israel in particular. And we've seen this so clearly as we've preached through Genesis, Exodus, and Leviticus. Israel is a stiff-necked, hard-hearted people. That phrase for hard-hearted or “stubbornness of heart” is used eight times by Jeremiah. In Chapter 17 of Jeremiah there's that famous verse that a lot of you have heard before, Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick.” That's the situation of the fallen, sinful heart, and there's no doubt, that is the issue. That's the problem behind the problem of covenant-breaking — and that's exactly what the new covenant addresses.The main fault (the main problem) with the old covenant is that it's made with covenant-breakers with hard hearts and that's what God is going to do something about.That's what the better promise are going after. Verses 10–12 give us the details.2) All members of the New Covenant have the instruction of Yahweh written on their hearts. Okay, so this new covenant not like the old one, here it is: “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israelafter those days, declares Yahweh:'I will put my laws [torah — God's instructions]I will put my instructions into their minds,and write them on their hearts,and I will be their God,and they shall be my people.‘“ So here's two things that sound similar to the old covenant:First, we've heard this sentence before: “I will be their God and they shall be my people.” God repeats that statement throughout the Old Testament. It's a statement about his covenant relationship with his people.Second, we know that God has law, or instruction. That's not new. As an expression of God's love for his people, he has told his people how we wants them to live as their expression of love for him and others. God has revealed his righteousness to them in this way. The ideas of covenant relationship and law are similar to the old covenant, except that now, look at this: the law, or instruction of Yahweh, is not merely a thing externally revealed that we conform to, but God's instruction goes deeper. God's put his instructions in our minds. He writes his instruction on our hearts. And that changes everything! Everything! Think about this: God's law is on our hearts!Now this isn't mentioned here in Jeremiah, but when God repeats the new covenant through the prophet Ezekiel, he explains the promise, Ezekiel 36:26: “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.” That is what God is doing when he writes his instruction on our hearts. He is actually giving us new hearts; he gives us his Spirit, in us, who causes us to believe and be faithful.Now, is that a better promise or what?It means this: The Spirit-empowered writing of God's instruction on our new hearts makes every new covenant member endure in faith. See, it's not like the old covenant! There's a transformation of the heart for every new covenant member.And then this transformation, God's instruction on our new hearts, deepens our covenant relationship with God. If you're a member of the new covenant, God is our God and we are his people, or we could also say, God is our Father and we are his sons and daughters. That's the application of the new covenant that the Apostle Paul makes in 2 Corinthians 6. There is a new closeness with God that every member of the new covenant experiences. Verse 11: “And they shall not teach, each one his neighborand each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,'for they shall all know me,from the least of them to the greatest.This is saying exactly what it sounds like it's saying.Every member of the new covenant knows God.” In the new covenant you don't have to teach or compel one another to know God because everyone already does. And this reality of the new covenant, quoted here in Hebrews 8:11, is verse 34 of Jeremiah 31 and it's actually contrasted to an earlier verse in that same chapter in Jeremiah. Right before Jeremiah announces the new covenant, in Jeremiah 31, verse 29 he says: “In those days they shall no longer say:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,and the children's teeth are set on edge.'30 But everyone shall die for his own iniquity. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.” In the old covenant, you became part of the covenant by physical birth. You became a member of the covenant community by simply physically being born into it, and one thing that meant was that the children had to bear the judgment of their father's sins. The structure of the covenant was physically, genealogically defined — which also meant that although you might be born into the covenant and part of the covenant community, you might not trust Yahweh.That was certainly the case for most of Israel's history. “Father Abraham had many sons, and many sons had Father Abraham” — but very few of them shared the faith of Abraham. There were lots of covenant members, but very few covenant-keepers, and so that meant that some members of the covenant (covenant-keepers) had to urge the other members of the covenant to know God, to believe, to keep the covenant. It meant that they'd sing that song like this:“Father Abraham had many sons, and many sons had Father Abraham, I am one of them, and so are you” — physically, but you have to believe!That's how it went in the Old Testament.And this is one way the new covenant is fundamentally different. It does not have a physical, genealogical structure. It doesn't matter what kind of grapes your momma and daddy eat. You are not simply part of the new covenant because you are physically born, but you become part of the new covenant only when you are spiritually born — which is what the Bible calls the new birth. That's when God does the heart work he promises here. To be a member of the new covenant means you have been born again — new birth — which is why we don't have to say to one another, “Know God.” To be a member of the new covenant means you do know God. The new covenant community is not a mixture of believers and unbelievers like in the old covenant, but in the new covenant all covenant members are believers and only believers are covenant members. See, it's a new and better covenant. Here's the third and final point. This is one more better-promise reality of the new covenant:3) The New Covenant declares the entire forgiveness of all the sins of every covenant member.This is verse 12. “For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,and I will remember their sins no more.” Notice the “for.” This declaration of God's mercy to the members of the new covenant is what grounds this new covenant relationship. If you wondered: what is the foundation of this whole thing? Where does it all come from? It comes from the mercy of God displayed in his forgiveness of the sins of his covenant-partners.And the forgiveness of sins is now a new thing. We know that happened in the old covenant through the sacrificial system. The forgiveness of the people's sins was repeated every year, on the Day of Atonement, but the reason it was repeated every year is because it was always insufficient. God forgave sin but he didn't forget about it. The high priest had to do it all over again the next year. And that's what makes this sentence in verse 12 astounding. God says: “I will remember their sins no more.” God says that about every member of the new covenant. It means that when you enter into the new covenant by repentance and faith in Jesus, because of the new birth, there is nothing left to be done about the penalty of your sin — there is no more action that needs to be taken for your guilt, ever. In the new covenant, being part of this covenant, means that we have the full and entire forgiveness of all our sins. How? Because Jesus says it is the new covenant in my blood … not the blood of bulls and goats, but the blood of Jesus himself. The blood of Jesus atones for our sins by his once-for-all sacrifice at the cross. Church, when Jesus died on the cross, he died for you. He was slain for you as a perfect sacrifice, and as our great high priest, he poured out his blood for you, one time, once and for all, and then he sat down. It's finished. Atonement has been made. The debt has been paid. Your sins are remembered no more!The greatest tension and fault of the old covenant is overcome by Jesus, and we rest in this:We rest in the full and entire forgiveness of all our sins. We rest in the reality of new hearts that God has given to us by his Spirit. We rest in this new deepened relationship, that God is our Father and we are his sons and daughters, and we know him. We rest here. Which means that in the new covenant we don't anticipate that God will do these things in the future, but we declare and enjoy that God has already done them in Jesus and we experience them now. To be a member of the new covenant means that you are filled with the Holy Spirit now, you are a son or daughter of God now, you are forgiven forever now.Either that's true of you or it's not. And if you're part of the new covenant, because of your faith in Jesus, it's true of you.What Baptism DeclaresSo what kind of Christians are we? The kind who, as best as we can, submits ourselves to the word of God as our top authority, and we believe that this is why the new covenant is a better covenant. And we believe that this is what baptism declares. In just a few moments, there are seven individuals who are coming to be baptized as a visible demonstration of their faith-union with Jesus and that they now belong to the new covenant. Because they've been born again and put their faith in Jesus, God has given them new hearts and he has put his Spirit within them, and they know him. They are forgiven for all their sins. They are sons and daughters of God. In baptism they're not saying that they hope God will do this one day in the future, but they're saying that he has. And we get to rejoice with them in the grace of God. Father in heaven, we can't help but say with the apostle Paul: “Oh, the depths of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!” Your judgments are unsearchable. Your ways inscrutable. Who has known your mind, Father? Who has been your counselor? Who has given a gift to you that he might be repaid?We stand in awe. To you be all glory! To you be all glory for everything you have done, and to you be all glory in the lives of these being baptized today. Thank you for calling them from death to life. Thank you for uniting them to Jesus by your Spirit and making them part of the new covenant. Father, thank you, in Jesus's name, amen.

Romans 11:33-36 — Sermon by Trevor Hoffman

Allen: All right, passive traders, we have a treat in store for you today. Many of you know about the option continuum, which is basically, you know, our levels of breakdown of where you are as an options trader, you start with level one, you don't know anything. And then you get to level 10, maybe if you want to, which is option professional. And basically a professional means that you are so good at trading options, that you are now trading and managing other people's money and you're getting paid for it. Many of you have reached out to us in the past and said, Hey, I want more information on that. And we haven't really put it out there because I am not doing it myself. Right now, as a professional, I don't I'm not measuring anybody else's money. And so, you know, I'm not the best person to talk to about that. But we keep getting people and be like, hey, you know, I want to learn, I want to learn. So one of our members, Paul Ashcraft, has volunteered to join us today. And I want to thank you, Paul, for coming and helping out. A few a couple of months ago, I think in one of our groups, I think it was a passive group, where I had put in there like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting a hedge fund. So I'm thinking about going professional, right? And he reached out and said, hey, you know, I'm already doing it if you want to, if you want to talk and I can answer your question. So we had an amazing conversation, I learned a lot. And I was like, You know what, this would be really helpful for everybody else. So I asked Paul, hey, could you do it again? And we can record it this time? It was like, Yeah, sure, no foul. And so he's here, Paul, thank you. Thank you for being on thank you for taking the time to do this. Paul: Thank you very much. Pleasure. Allen: And you're Paul is a member of our of a lot of our programs. So passive trading formula, the blank check, and now the credit spread mastery as well. So you know, it's good to see that, hey, if you're a money manager, then you're continuously getting learning and learning new things to help out your students, or your clients, I guess. So. Well, tell me, why did you get into management? What was it that drawed you through that? Paul: Well, I sort of got tricked into it. I had a, I'm a CPA by trade, and I had a client who was becoming an NFL player agent. And he trusted me and wanted me to help him manage his people's NFL players money. So I started the licensing process at that time. And so that sort of tricked me into it. So that sort of fell apart. And then he wasn't getting more leads for what he was doing. So I basically continued since then, so Allen: Okay, so were you already trading on your own? Or before that? Or did you learn as you want to? Paul: Yeah, I've been trading, you know, for quite a while. Off and on. So yeah, I've had some experience of trading. Allen: Okay. So you are comfortable, you could do it? Paul: I knew I needed to learn, I do need to learn some more. But yeah, I feel like I could I knew enough about the world to do that. Allen: Okay. And so you are known as what is a RIA, a registered independent advisor? Paul: Right. That's correct. Allen: So that's one of the ways of managing money. What exactly is an RIA? Paul: It's basically a firm that is licensed by the FINRA basically, and you are licensed to where you can manage other people's money. Allen: And all RIAs, are fiduciaries, right? Paul: That's correct. Yeah.  Allen: Right. Because a lot of people don't know the difference between a fiduciary and a non fiduciary. And so a fiduciary, if you don't know you are legally bound to do what's in the best interest of the client. A lot of these other companies that people think about when they're talking about money management, or Wealth Advisors, retirement advisors, all these words that they use, they have no license, or maybe they do have a license, but they're not a fiduciary. So they're not required to do what's best for the client. And so they can sell you a product that they get the highest commission on, even if it's not really a good thing, a good fit for you. So that's why..  Paul: Yeah one of the ways I deal with that fiduciary criteria is basically whatever I do for other people, I do for myself. Allen: Okay. Okay, interesting. So, what does it take to open an RIA? Paul: Well, if you want to legal structure and need, like, I have an LLC got a creative for that. And I have had to pass a serious 65 test, which you'd like an SEC test, and get to come up some kind of agreement you have with your clients that's approved by FINRA to sign them on as clients. Those are the basics you have to do. Allen: Okay, and like how long did it take you to go through all that? Remember? Paul: I'm gonna say, basically of six to nine months. Allen: Okay, and how long have you been? How long have you been an RIA? Paul: Since 2014, so roughly eight years. Allen: Awesome. Yep. Cool. And for those of you, you know, I'm going to repeat it later on, but Paul's business website is Businessadvisors.Pro. So if you ever or if you need a good adviser, you know, please reach out to Paul. And I'll repeat at the end, and we'll put it in the show notes. I just wanted to get that out there. Paul: And that's mainly my CPA website, just so you know. Allen: Very cool. BusinessAdvisors.Pro, there you go.  Paul: And then sort has been done about creating my Wealth Advisors website, because you're so under scrutiny when you were you advertise things, so I just sort of steered away from that a little bit. Allen: Interesting. Okay. So I guess there's certain things you can say and certain things you cannot say. Paul: Basically, anything you put out there to the public, you have to like, monitor it for five years, and they can question you about it anytime. So I just figured one way to get around that is just not to do it. Allen: Okay. So then that leads me to my next question, like, how do you find clients if you're not advertising? Paul: Well, you know, I have CPA clients, probably like half the clients, I have my Wealth Advisors from CPA side. Other thing is like, from friends, and referrals from other people who use me. Allen: Okay. So it takes time to build all that up?  Paul: Yes, yes. And I'm currently working on more. More advertising. Allen: Okay. All right. So the advertising is possible. It's not it's not like it's restricted. But you have to be careful of what you do and how you do it. Paul: Yes, yes, yeah. Allen: Now, what are your clients looking for? Because, you know, if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I'm looking to make more money, obviously, but they have so many, so many choices. They can do it themselves, it could go to like, like Fidelity and have them do it. They could go to they're really rich, they can have their own private like, you know, Bank of America, has their own private wealth, people. So when they come to you, what do they tell you? Like? What are they looking for in terms of an advisor? Paul: Well, I mean, I had someone recently come to me, and, you know, we're signing them up, or things that I'd say we, if we look, if we're here a year later, what do you want to what your criteria are saying, I did a good job. And he wanted a 10% return, which has been difficult in this market. But that's, that's one thing. Another thing? I you know, most advisors out there, these basically are, they're buying hold people, I mean, and they bid six things in a bucket, and don't look at it too often. So I, I basically say that I'm actively working in their account, and I'm not sure I'm going to just put it there and not be looking at it. Allen: So obviously, you probably tell them about your options experience and the different types of strategies you use. Paul: Yeah, a lot of times just the casual person warnings on the manager money that, that if I tried to tell them all that it would go way over their head. Because, you know, it took me like two years talking about options to actually start doing it myself, you know, so I'm trying to be a little bit of conscientious about what they can and cannot handle information wise. I'll be glad to talk about it, they want to, but I'm not gonna write too much about it. Allen: And I bet that would that would set you apart, right? You know, it's like, hey, you know, we can do plain vanilla stuff. Or we can do if you're a little bit more aggressive than we can do this, and this and this. And then if it goes over there, that's fine. But as long as they're like, whoa, this guy knows. Paul: Yeah, definitely. That's certainly part because like, my CPA, well, I deal with investment advisors. And like, no one, no one that I know of is actually managing costs. I mean, like, you know, every week or things like that, Allen: yeah, yeah, they just don't I mean, part of it is they have, depending on where they are some of these guys that I know, they have broker dealers, and the broker basically tells them what they can do and what they can't do. And trading is like, No, you're not doing it. They just they can't, they're not allowed. And so, you know, we get we get clients that are financial advisors, they come in, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a financial advisor, like, oh, they shouldn't, you know, all this stuff. And they're like, oh, I don't do any of this for my son. I don't know, they don't even teach us this stuff. In financial advisors. Cool. So it's like, once I call again, I'm like, Oh, my God. Paul: Yeah, most of them are just like, call themselves people. And it is this, they don't necessarily know that much about investing. It's more about they have relationships with people, and they train their people to be accustomed to five to 7% returns. So so don't want you to do that as that's, you know, not a hallmark. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when I go to if I go to a dinner party, or whatever, and, you know, always comes up. So what do you do? It's like, well, I teach people how to do this. And the first they're like, really, is that, you know, what do you what do you mean? And then we tell them a little bit about it, and they go, Yeah, you know, we try to aim, you know, for 5% a month, and they're like, what a month. Really? Oh, wow, I gotta learn about that. And then, you know, you explain a little bit and then they're, like, bored and then they go talk to somebody else. Because, you know, it's cool. They want, they want it. They just want to do the work. So that's cool. Now as an advisor, how do you How do you charge? Like, what do you charge? How do you do it? Paul: So I have what's called a serious 65 license. So I'm able to charge a percentage of what assets are under management. Okay, so the basic generic, charged with as generally 1% of assets under management. Okay, that if I'm doing more as a some different strategies, things like that, I'm probably going to up the field more because it's, it is active trading. Allen: It takes more time. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember way back when I had a guy at America ice, and he was my advisor. And yeah, he would charge a minimum of 1% on assets every year. Every time you put money, you gave him money, they would take 5% off the top. And then every every mutual fund and every index fund or whatever that they put you in. And most of them were, you know, Ameriprise products. Each of those things would have a separate fee every year. So I mean, I got dealing left and right. I didn't know what I was doing. At the time, I was thinking I am going to you know, I'm smart. I got an advisor. But yeah, he was the one getting rich. And so.. Paul: They made that money, whether they go down or go up it. Allen: Yeah, I mean, they take the money right up front, 5% off the top. As soon as you make a deposit, it's like, man, you haven't done anything. Even if I turn around and ask for the money back, I just love fibers. Do you have like a lot of Is There a lot of overhead for being a advisor? You need a large staff? Paul: Right now, it's just me. And so I'm already have all my setup for my CPA business. So there's not really that much more to do.  Allen: And you can run it from the same location. Yes, yes. Okay. So then who does the like the backend stuff, you know, statements, and compliance audits, all that stuff. Paul: So we use Interactive Brokers as the broker dealer. So they basically, so all my clients have their own account set up with them, and it sort of goes underneath my master account. So so they take care about the then get a statement from there anytime they want to find out what their balances. And if they need to take up money, they can contact them and get the money taken out. So they saw him. So we're doing a lot of the back office stuff. Allen: Awesome. So you really don't have to do anything. And they they opened the account themselves, the client opens the account themselves, they deposit the money themselves, they can take it out whenever they want, they can go and log in, see all the trades, see whatever is there. So you really don't have a lot of customer service issues. And so you don't have to send send out statements, because Interactive Brokers will do that. Right. Paul: And one of my strategies is if someone is, I call it high maintenance, then I probably can't handle that, you know, they probably need to find someone else because, you know, I got enough things to do is it is. Allen: Awesome, cool. And then. So you don't handle any of the money either. Because they just go straight to interactive. So you're like a hands off, okay, I'll do the trades, but I'm not touching your money. So you don't have to worry about me taking your money and running away and flying to Bermuda or something.  Paul: Yeah, just like the Bernie Madoff deal where he was. He they call it having custody of the funds, and he had custody. And so they, they talked about that when you're going through your testing and things like that, about having custody and not having custody and things like that. So yeah, it's a big red flag. Allen: Yeah. Because I mean, like, I've been looking into starting my own hedge fund, you know, using the the passive trading strategies and such. And I looked at RIA first and then I looked at, you know, hedge fund as another way, and I think from what I've been able to find so far is that if you start a hedge fund, and you don't charge any management fees, you don't need the license, you can set it up in a way where you know, you get you only take a percentage of the profit. So if there's a gain, you can get a percent, but you don't get that yearly management fee. If you want the yearly management fee, then you do have to separate a separate Ria, to do the management of the fund. Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, so I thought that was pretty cool. So we've been looking at that as well, different things. So now, what percentage of your management is active? versus, you know, index funds, mutual funds, etc? Paul: I'd say about half. Allen: Okay, and all of the clients are okay with that, or do you do client by client? Paul: I pretty much put everybody under the same model. Yeah. So Allen: And so with interactive, how does that work, you have to go into each account to put a trade on or you just put one trade on and it just trickles.. Paul: There's a master account and I can set up different  classification. So I could I could buy 1000 shares of IBM and have it spread it putting all the accounts did that.  So they have to watch out for is some of the accounts can trade certain things, some can't, like RIAs cannot do you know, futures and naked options and things like that as far as, at least on the credit side. Allen: Okay. All right. So can does that get confusing? If you want if you want like, Okay, I want like a say IBM, I want my IBM stock to be 5% of all of my everybody's portfolio. Paul: Yeah, that would be a different the different equation. So basically, like I did a trade today where I figured, you know, want to take a $10,000 risk. So divided by what that option was going for. And I bought that many contracts to take on that kind of risk. So not necessarily rebalancing everyone is usually trade by trade. So putting on a certain set of circumstances, set a step stop loss and things like that. Allen: Okay, cool. So you can do it as easy or as simple as you want. Or you can make it as complicated as you want. Yeah, up to you. Yeah. Nice. So what types of what types of trades do you do? Paul: Well, some of what you teach. So I do some swing trading. And of course, you know, credit spreads and things like that. And some, you know, some some of the dividend paying stocks and covered calls and things like that. Allen: And do you do any any oil futures options? Paul: Well, I'm not. I'm just at the point to get licensed for that. Allen: It's a separate license? Paul: That's as a separate license. Yes. So you have to you have to get licensed through the, Chicago Board of Trade, the NFA and National Futures Association. Allen: Okay. Okay. And then will you be able to do it the same as everything else through Interactive Brokers? Paul: Yes, I think so. Sometimes you don't know to actually do it. So I think it's pretty similar. Allen: Sweet. Okay. Now, as a as an RIA, do you also advise your clients on other alternative investments, you know, real estate, crypto anything else? Or is it just stocks, bonds, options? Paul: I'm always getting to ask questions, you know, because I'm in, you know, really, I'm gonna CPA world or the IRA world, I'm getting asked questions. So I will advise on that if I think I have a good opinion. You know, I'm not roll up on that rolled up on crypto Allen: Right, right. Are you still bound by the same fiduciary type rules on that or?  Paul: You could come under some scrutiny. You know, you'd like an offsetting handed comment, and then someone does something crazy. And so you got to be a little careful. Allen: Yeah. All right. And okay, so him now with the interactive account, or the broker dealer, is the software any different? Like, versus if you open a regular account by yourself? Is there anything you have to learn a new platform? Or is it basically the same thing?  Paul: It's pretty much the same platform, you just have to understand how to do the trading, like I was telling you about, like, allocating between all the accounts, but the platform itself is basically the same. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Allen: What do you see as the future of money management, because like, you know, they got these robo advisors now, and they got like Robin Hood, trying to get everybody to trade on their own. And so what do you see down the pike? You know, do you see like, your clients are like, yeah, rather just have you do it? Or are robots or whatever? Paul: Yeah, I can see, you know, some of the robot picking up. But on average, most people out there don't know, hardly anything about the investing world. My average client, so I think it's going to be still a good field you know, way up currently doing it. Allen: Okay, and who is like your average client? Paul: They're probably like 50 years old, that did 60. And probably, you know, got assets anywhere from, you know, 50 to 50,000 to over a million dollars, you know? Allen: And do you have any limits on who can invest with you? And how much? Paul: No, I mean, like, I'm not, I'm just gonna take on any account right now. It would need to be over a certain dollar amount for me to I just always have to keep that in mind about, you know, do I want to take on a five or $10,000 account? Because it's gonna be extra work. Taking that versus the capital issue at-- You don't have to be you don't have to comply with the day trading rules. You know, because because if you if you accidentally in and out three, three trades in a week, then your account gets shut down. You know, so you have to deal with that. So yeah, so I'm trying to gradually move up from like a minimum of 25,000 to 50,000, 200,000. Allen: Okay. And then you also have a certain criteria like a certain person that you want right? Certain somebody they can handle the options and that Intertek can handle that because I mean, it does swing a little bit. So if they have a 5,000 to $10,000 account, they freak out if they lose $1,000, obviously, that's not the right person for you anyway. Paul: Right. But on that same note, I had a client the other day that, you know, they have, you know, an excess a half million dollars with me. And they want to know how they could put in more money since this market was down so they could capture, capture that now mark? I love that kind of client. expecting them to call you and tell you, why is my account down? Actually, that question is dead. They're saying, How can we put more money in?  Allen: Yeah, that's a smart, that's a Smart Client. So that's, that's got to be your email, you know, going out, like, Hey, he's trying to give me more now. double down on your investments. Okay. Now, How has being a money manager improved your own trading? Or hasn't? Paul: Well, I mean, it's made me to seek out new avenues of investing. You know, because I'm looking out for my clients. By the same token, when I do that, I find things that I can use to, you know, like, I don't know, if I would have found the old future options without that, you know, seeking out new new investment strategies, you know, so I could do a better job for my clients. Allen: Okay. Now, we've had a lot of volatility lately. And you've, you've alluded to it already. When stocks down about 20% or so right now, how do you deal with the investor concerns or expectations? Paul: I'm continually learning that. The more, the more proactive you can be with that, I find that it's better. Like, if you have a bad day or a bad trade that, you know, that affects it so much, and then maybe call and talk to them about it versus waiting for them to call you later, and they get their quarterly statements. And they call you know? Allen: Right. So do you find that a large portion of your job is just talking to people and just calming them down? Or explaining certain things to them? Or educating them? Paul: In the beginning? Yes. If someone's with you for a while, and they haven't gotten, understood your ways, and why you do what you do. And it would be generally in the first year of a client relationship, you indeed do that more, but there is sort of they get to know you, you you get to know them and sort of like a training curve there. Allen: And now, most of your clients, are they either they know you or they were referred to you. Right. So there's always there's already that trust built in from the beginning. Most of them yes, yeah. So if you, you know, advertising, somebody comes in cold, they're like, oh, yeah, I like what you're doing here. You know, here's $100,000, there's gonna be a lot more back. Paul: Yeah. Allen: Okay. So how are you handling? How are you handling the volatility? Like when somebody calls up and says, Oh, my count is down. How do you? What do you do there? Paul: Well, number one, what I did when I saw when I saw the market starting to tank, I basically, was going more into cash. So like, I the client won't know why we aren't investing. I said, Well, I'm waiting for the market to give me indication has, it's found the bottom or, you know, it is headed back up. So I don't want to, I'm not a bottom picker. But I don't want to like, write it further down. You know. So that's one way of dealing with it. And they seem to appreciate that quite a bit and understand that. So I don't think that's something you get out of a typical advisor. Allen: So yeah, but what if somebody calls you and says, Oh, my God, you know, I'm down 10%? What am I going to do? I can't handle this. How do you handle that? Have you ever had that happen? Paul: Yeah. I tried to change up their strategies a little bit to get them a little more solid, or maybe not trade as much in their account. Just being a little more cautious. Allen: Okay, so Okay, so you can actually choose, like, let's say, we talked about that IBM thing. So if you're like, Hey, I'm buying IBM, you could choose and say, okay, don't put it in this account in this account, just because in all these other ones,. Yeah. All right. So you can actually tailor it because like, if somebody goes, Yeah, I just want to be long stocks, or I just want tech stocks. And I just want you know, credit spreads. So they you can, you can do that. Yeah, okay. Yep. So, do you have any shortcuts that you can share? You know, for somebody that's thinking, hey, you know, this sounds like cool, I'm gonna I'm gonna get into this. RIA business, anything that you probably didn't know, ahead of time that you would have liked to have known? Paul: This is sort of like a unknown territory. Because, I mean, when I was doing it, I couldn't get anybody to actually figure it out what like a serious 65 license would do. And I was sort of going into blindly a little bit. So I mean, I think the number one thing is maybe you know, then contact me. Shortcuts is, you know, I don't know like I had to find a place to take the take the course for that. And then I hired a guy to tutor me some. And, you know, there's, there's these firms out there wanting you to sign up with them for them to do oh, you know, like your paperwork and so forth. And I just sort of like fumbled my way through it and plagiarized another agreement online affected us. And so another thing is to know if you're in this world, you will get audited. Personally. Well, the your investment firm, right, yeah. Yeah. Like I'm in the CPA world, and I probably will never get out a different CPA world. But the investment side, I will get audited probably time and time again. So far, it's only been once one step Florida, but yeah, Allen: okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a good thing. I guess, you know, that, that the advisors and like you said, you know, the Bernie Madoff, he keeps him at bay as much as he can a little bit. So some of that, I guess, from a consumer standpoint, and that's a good thing to hear. Paul: Yeah, but a lot of a lot of us, they don't necessarily understand the world as much as you do. And it's more like them checking a box somewhere in a city. They ask this question, or I did that, but they don't really find that don't really necessarily know exactly what they're doing, you know, Allen: Yeah. So but do you mean tax audited or audited by like the audit by Paul: the state by the financial regulatory people for the state you're in Allen: The state regulatory? Okay, so every state has their own regulatory stuff that you have so far. Paul: Yeah. So just just sort of background here. Usually, as you're managing under $100 million, you're managed by the state. But then once you hit $100 million in the SEC is basically is going to your watchdog, it's gonna look over your shoulder. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And you're in Florida, right? Correct. But you can take clients from anywhere? Paul: I can. But different states have different rules, most of them allow you to take five to 15 clients, and not really be registered with them. But then once you hit over that threshold, they want you to fully registered with them. But there are a few states that require you if you get one client, they want you to be registered. And Louisiana was one of those states. Allen: So I guess, depending on how much capital the guy is gonna give you whether it's worth it to register there.. Paul: Exactly, exactly, yeah. Okay. All right. Allen: So would you knowing what you know, now, are you happy that you went this route? Paul: Ask me again, in a few years. Allen: Well, you've been doing already for like, eight years. So kind of got some kind of track record here. Paul: Yeah, it's been, you know, it's been definitely a learning curve, you know, from the regulatory side. And then from the investment side, too, so? Yes, I'm glad I did it. But it' had its rough moments. Allen: Well, give me an example. Paul: Well if you if you lose on a trade, you know, it can affect your account and other people's account. So that's probably the biggest things that has happened to me, you know? And then you got to figure out how am I gonna tell this person this?  Allen: Yeah. So how did you how did you deal with that? Paul: I prayed a lot. Basically, if I knew the fact that someone so much, I would, I call them and talk to him about it. But in a certain situation, like, because it was spread over so many accounts, it didn't really affect anyone that much. It wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, if I'm managing $5 million of money, and I lose 20,000, you know, the most Someone's probably gonna lose is maybe 2 or 3000. So the overall number is a big number. But you know, we spread between all the counts, it's not that big of a number. Allen: Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's that thing, right? There is like, the biggest thing that's kept me out of it for all these years, you know, people have been asking me from the beginning, okay, can you take my money? I'm like, nope, nope, because I don't know how I'm gonna handle the stress. I don't know if, um, we will sleep, I can lose my own money, you know, market down 20% Okay, whatever, it'll go back up, I got time, you know, but somebody else if I lose your money, and I don't know, I don't know how I'm gonna handle it. And so that's the one thing that that's really caused me to be hesitant up till now. And I agree what you said about not having that much information out there. You know, I mean, there are companies out there that will like if you want to be in RIA you type in how to be an RIA and there's a company that hey, you if you give us like 30 grand, you know, we'll do all the paperwork and we'll file everything for you. So you Okay, but what do I actually get? You know, they're like well you do the paperwork. Well what about after that? How do I get clients how do I do this how to do that they will help you at all and these two guys they had approached, they had talked that a because I'm you know Option Genius is in what's called the financial publishing space that world, so we have our own little conventions and all the Guru's come and hang out and talk marketing and stuff. And so there was there was these two guys who were speakers, and they were telling all of the financial publishers that hey, you guys need to get into the into the management business, because you guys already have all these clients? They already trust you? You know, and they probably have a lot of money because people coming to me, you know, they say, Hey, I want to learn how to trade options. Okay, cool, you know, and how large is your account? They're like, Oh, 50,000. Okay, cool. And they trading options with 50,000. But they also have like, maybe a million dollar IRA, that they're not touching, or their wife has $500,000 that is with some other financial advisor that she doesn't want her husband to touch with options. So it's like, yeah, everybody that comes in has a lot more money. So if you started an IRA or an advisor, then you know, they'll give you that money as well. And you can make all this money. And I was like, Okay, that's interesting. But, you know, what are the legalities and all that and they wanted, I don't know, obtain $1,000 plus a percentage of the company to actually teach me all this stuff. And I'm finding a there's a lot of secrecy, as you can say, you know, and Wall Street, I think puts it like that on purpose. Because they don't want everybody to know what they're doing and what they that they don't know what they're doing. Pretty much. So cool. Paul: I don't know, that's intentional, but it just got I think there's so few people who are looking to do it. And like, it's not a widespread throughout the population thing. So you don't find as much about it, you know. Allen: Maybe okay, yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. Because like, you know, even like, what is the difference between an RIA and a hedge fund? You know, I've been beating my head, like, which one? Which way? Do we go? Which way? Do we go? If we go this way? Or this? Or what are the pros? What are the cons, and there's like, no one person that can that can tell me, if you want to go to a hedge fund, they got a little hedge fund world, and, you know, you got to you got to pay the dues to get in. If you want the RA world, then it's more common, but it's, it's for the guys, you know, for people who are like, Yeah, you know, I just want to put everybody's money in an index fund, you know, so it's like, what you're doing is totally different, like, I have not met any advisors that are actually, you know, trading that actively for people. So I mean, compared to the other guy, Joe Schmo that charges 1% a year, or 2% a year, just to put their money in an index fund compared to what you're doing, you know, your value is just so much more. But it does seem like it's very similar to a hedge fund where, you know, a hedge fund is a little bit different, where all the money is pooled into one spot. And then, you know, the, the trader controls it, you're doing kind of similar, where you can look at it and be like, Okay, I got, you know, $10 million under management, how am I going to split that up into different trades? And it just happens to be in different people's accounts? So have you ever thought about increasing your rates because like a hedge fund, they can charge a percentage of the gains? An RIA can't? Can they do that? Paul: They can do that on their certains particulars criteria? I think like you have to have an investor who's has at least $2 million in investable assets. They have at least $1 million invested with you. And then you can have certain arrangements where you say, Well, if I make whatever percentage I'll make about what the s&p does, you'll split it with me, or something like that, you know? Okay, so again, it's very, it's has a lot of criteria to it can't be done, though. Okay. Yeah. Because I wouldn't say the hedge fund world is based on what you're telling me is, cuz you're basically commingling all the funds. Right? So you got to do like a statement for each person or something. Yeah. And so I think the advantage is, you can just commingle it all and then do whatever you need to do. And then at the end of the day, you somehow allocated? Allen: Right, so the thing with the hedge fund is that all the investors have to be accredited. Okay, so accredited, as you know, probably, you know, you basically you have a million dollar net worth not putting your house, or you're making upwards of 300,000 a year. So, you know, basically, so at least Paul: They have to tell you, they're accredited. Right? Allen: I think we would actually want them to be proof, you know, give me proof otherwise, we're not letting you in. Paul: That was actually in so my testing I just did is like, yeah, you want this criteria? But are you actually gonna go go check it? No. So Allen: Interesting. Okay. Because I mean, you know, the government says that the hedge funds, you know, if you're an accredited investor, you should be smarter than the average bear. And so, if you lose money, it's not that big a deal. Like you are smart enough to get into it. You know, somebody with $5,000 or $10,000. That's my life savings. No, sorry, you can't invest in this. Even though the hedge fund might be like doing 1,000,000% a year, you can't invest because you're not accredited. Ras can take basically everybody, so that was one of the things okay, somebody comes in with 50,000 as an RIA, you might just take it because it's not that much paperwork. It's not extra for you. But for a hedge fund. Yeah, no, I can't do it. Because I gotta, I gotta pay the auditing company. I gotta pay the statement company. I got to pay the customer. You know, whoever's doing customer service and answering the phone and doing all that, and salespeople and all that. So 50,000 is not going to cut it, you know, the limit is a lot higher. For sure. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that, in that sense, totally different world. But very similar from what I'm seeing is that, you know, you're doing probably what we're gonna be doing, you know, similar. Paul: So you probably can't take qualified money like IRAs and things like that. Allen: I think they can. Yeah, yeah, I think they can, as long as a person is accredited. And so there's different regulations, 5063 C, or six, C, five, or six D, they'll those tell you, you know, if you can take accredited and non accredited, and then can you advertise or not, I'm still learning all this, it's all different, because like, if you start a Real Estate Fund, different from if you're doing a hedge fund, versus a private equity fund, so some of the rules apply to everything. Some of the rules are just separate. So I'm still learning all that. But I know that the Interactive Brokers, people, they've done webinars in the past with attorneys. So if anybody wants to start a hedge fund, you can still use the Interactive Brokers platform. And they have they actually have a separate portal, I think, for hedge funds. Yeah, I've seen that. You've seen that too? Where you can actually see what other people are doing. And what are the trades that they're making? Paul: I didn't know about that. I just knew that they had some kind of hedge fund portion of what they're doing. I didn't know exactly what it meant. Allen: Yeah. So So what they said was that, you know, the attorney was like, you know, it'll take several, you know, maybe $30,000, to set up your hedge fund, you can probably do it with a smaller amount, if you want to start an incubator fund, which is like, you know, if you have your own money, and you put in and say $300,000, and you trade it as if it's a fund, and you don't maybe that that paperwork might be like 7000, and you set that up, you treat it as a fun, you build up your track record, and be like, Oh, hey, look, you know, I was trading for six months, I got this, that or not, and then you can start advertising it, and you convert it to a full fund. And then you can say, well, look at my track record, this is what I did. And then people can come in for the full fund. So that was one of the things that they were they were talking about. But so yeah, we were we were looking at an interactive, but the one thing that interacted with their software is a little bit more clunky or less user friendly than some of the most user friendly software. Yeah, it was my personal accounts. Now. So when, do you still trade on on your own on the side? Or is all of your money in the big? Paul: I have some money still in the in the huge fund? And then, you know, I have some I have an account on the side, right? Allen: So that separate account, did that change it all after you got licensed? Because they always, you know, when you open an account, they always ask you, are you licensed? And then they're I don't know why they do that. Is there to change anything on? You're not gonna recall? Paul: Yeah. So, there's, there's occasions where you can link up an account with the master fund, and you can D link the account. So I think at one time I had, it's actually my 401k account for my accounting firm attached to the IRA account, but then I detached it. One of the main reasons was for futures. Okay, because I knew I wasn't qualified to do futures for the whole fun. But I could on a mountain account. Allen: Ah, okay. So you have to keep it separate to do the futures options. Yeah. Until you get licensed by them. And is that like a lengthy process as well? The futures options? License? Yeah. Paul: I took a series three exam back a month or so ago. So I'd studied for two or three months, and again, got a tutor. Yeah. Okay. Allen: All right. How many clients do you have right now? Paul: I'd say about 20-25. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And so, from a financial standpoint, has it been worth it? Paul: Yeah, it's been really good. I might, my intention when I know that, you know, once I got into it, my intention was over the years, you know, retirement age, is at my incomes shift for my CPA business or to my investment business. So I could do that, say two hours a day and retirement versus, you know, doing tax seasons and all that. CPA visits. Allen: Okay. Is that still the plan? Yes. Still plan. Awesome. Cool. So yeah, I mean, handling managing millions of dollars of assets in two hours a day. That sounds pretty good to me. Paul: That might be a pipe dream. But that's what I had in mind.  Allen: I think you could do it your own way. You're on your way. Cool. Awesome. So is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think like, oh, yeah, people need to know this. Paul: I could probably sit here and think about a few things. Not on every call. No, no, no, no. I mean, one thing you have to like for instance, a you have to have a like an email account that you Gotta add to retain all your emails for at least like five years. That's one thing to keep in mind. And like I have to send a like a balance sheet and income statement to the state of Florida every year and get someone to notarize it. You have to upload information to the FINRA site at least once a year. And that's where you pay your like on license Louisiana along Florida and things like that. So I pay my fees for those licensing booth vendors website. Allen: And that you had told me that the fee that you charge for management that comes out Interactive Brokers basically pays you every quarter, your fixed asset if I had to build it, right, yeah. Paul: Okay. So, so they do it automatically. But when I got audited, the state wanted me to actually create invoices. So the answer your question is, I'm not sure what the real requirement is. So far, I guess I met that criteria then. So I'm not actually grading him. What's the reporter right now? Okay. Allen: Yeah, I mean, because like, I mentioned, those two consultants that I had talked to, they had told me that I would have to bill everybody invoice, everybody, every quarter. And those people would have to pay me directly. So it wouldn't be taken out of their account, it would be sent directly to me that they would have to write a check every quarter. And I'm like, that's a pain in the butt. You know, that's pretty cumbersome. Yeah, if a customer has to pay, you know, a big check every quarter for management fees. And then especially if you have a down year, he's like, What am I paying for it? I don't pay for this anymore. And you don't get paid. So I was like, Okay, that's a big red flag. But I'm glad that that's not true. Cool. Okay. Paul: One thing I have figured out there is, like, there's an account I was going to take from someone from one advisors to me, and they had all their fees, like totally hidden with all these mutual funds and things like that. And so like, you know, that account, I was gonna charge 3.3%. But we weren't able to ever get to the bottom of what the other advisor was charging. So, even though they have a lot of disclosures and things like that, I think we could have pressed the issue if we really wanted to. But, um, but you know, I ended up losing that account. Allen: So did that customer realize that, that he's being charged all these things? Paul: No, no, no clue. No, I mean, whenever I sort of parted ways, and I said, you guys at least need to figure out what they're charging you. You'd be surprised at the amount of inept that's out there and people who are actually hiring advisors, like, yeah, most people do not keep like their annual statements. They couldn't tell me how much they made last year. You know, because really, when I'm taking on an account, I want to know, what their track record has been sort of what I would need to beat to make them happy. You know, a lot of them are not that attuned to that. Allen: That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, people, they work their entire lives to save up money and invest it so they can retire. But then they don't pay any attention to the money. Oh, boy.. Paul: I think it's because they don't know that much about it. So they wouldn't know what to do if it was not what they wanted, you know? Allen: Yeah. I mean, you gotta you gotta take a little bit of time to at least read the statements and figure out where's the money going? And it could be better disclosed, you know, the statements could be easier to read that that's definitely sure. That's, yeah. But it is what it is for now. Paul: Like, I have this account right now, I'm probably going pick up another six to nine or 1000. And I asked them to get their annual statements ready. Because I wanted to see what they have been. have been doing, you know, so, you know, so they didn't know if there'll be they'll find those. So let me guess. It's like, it's weird. Allen: Okay, they just like asked her her advisor. Paul: Oh, that might be red flag fight flight to them. And they are looking so yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. seem bizarre. Allen: So if somebody was thinking about starting their own advisory firm, what would you say? They would need in terms of like, what are the minimums, okay, you should have been in the market for, you know, five years, you know, or you got to know XYZ, is there anything that you would say that, you know, if you don't, if you can't even do this, and this is not for you? Paul: Well, they're planning on doing what I'm doing, they probably need at least three to five years, you know, their own market experience. But, you know, that being said, like, I just met with someone the other day, and I could put all my funds through their strategies, and just sit and coast. You know, really, they charge an extra 1% or whatever, so I'll back off of my fee a little bit. You know, so you can you can play the game different ways. Wow. So you could do like I can see a new person and starting that and just have these other you know, because they have what's called sub managers or something like that. I don't know the exact term. Basically, you're hiring other money managers to manage the money you have for your clients. Right, like sub advisors, maybe is what it's called. Okay. So I'm not saying it will totally preclude them that they didn't have three to five years. But, you know, hopefully they're drawing on someone's experience to help hold their handle that Allen: Right. And do you know how much it costs to get it up and running? Paul: I would say three to five grand. Wow, that's not much. I mean, the hardware, these firms are brought in to charge you five times that? Allen: Yeah. Okay. So well, the sub accounts. Yeah, actually, I do remember those consultants talking to me about that. Paul: They they call it sub advisors? Allen: Yeah, I think that's what it is. And it's like, yeah, you know, if you don't want to do it yourself, you can put your money, you can put your your clients money into different buckets, and then they just do it for you, and they charge and then you split the fees or whatever, or something like that. So, and then each broker, each broker dealer has different ones. So like Fidelity or Schwab will have different sub accounts versus what you could put your stuff in. But interesting, I just Just curious the ones that you had talked to what what strategies were they were using, Paul: They're using free cash flow to is their criteria for who they're investing in. So they have like international, they call a cash cow c-o-w. So they've international domestic, and things like that. So they have a different definition of free cash flow. So they're they're fearing that's the best value, their way of determining value out there, like sort of like a value fund, but their own definition of what value is. Allen: Okay, so they're investing in stocks. Paul: Yes, international and domestic.   Allen: And they handle the ins and outs. And so you could put a portion of your client's money in there, you put it all in there. So it's like, it's like an ETF. So basically, you can say I want 20% of my money to go on this domestic one 20% International. And I might, I'm in talks with them. So I might end up doing some more money that way. But so they're coming up with different sample portfolios that I can use their funds for. Allen: Okay, interesting. And so that must be a much larger company. Paul: Yeah, I'm not sure how big they are. But they're, you know, big enough to where they had like a representative here in central Florida and some of their back office helping them out. Awesome. I'm not sure their size yet. Allen: Yeah. So I mean, this rabbit hole is pretty big. You can dive in there and spend a lot of time figuring all this stuff out. Paul: Yeah, yeah. So I can see a way I could sit and close more. But you're only doing it two hours a day anyway. Allen: Cool. All right. Paul: Well, maybe we're gonna get into my retirement years, a certain amount of years. I'll just put it there and just coast. The zero hours a day. Yep. Allen: Yeah, my, my neighbor in the office next door, he's a financial adviser. He's been doing it for, I think, 25 years now. So he's built up, you know, a sizable clientele. And so now he's at the point where he wants to retire. But he doesn't know what to do with the firm. He's like, you know, he makes probably a good 500,000 a year income from it. And he's like, I want one of my kids to take over. But the kids are not really willing, and not interested. He's like, I don't know what to do. So he's still there.  So there's been periods of times or, you know, like, I sit on the CPA world deal with other investment advisors, where it's been a quite a lucrative market to get bought your practice bought out by bigger, let's say Merrill Lynch or something like that, you know, they pay some pretty big bucks to buy those books of business. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, one of the things that the consultants told me is that once you get you get a client, that turnover, meaning the fact that they're going to leave you is not very high, they're gonna stay with you for years and years. So you can count on that money coming in, you know, that fee money coming in for a long period of time, unless you unless you totally screw it up, and then they're gonna leave. Paul: If you play the play smart. You know, if you're dealing with someone 50 years old, right now, you know, another 10 or 20 years, you're gonna pick up their kids and things like that when they need investment advice and stuff. It's, it'd be a self perpetuating thing. Allen: Yeah, yeah. And I do like the fact that there's always going to be somebody there willing to buy you, your company. You know, because a lot of times in smaller companies if you're the only person or if you got one or two employees, nobody really wants to buy the company even if it's successful. Nobody wants to buy it because they would without you there they're basically buying a job for themselves, right? It's not running on its own you're the one doing all the work in this case. Yeah, you're the one doing all the work but they don't need you. They can just, you know, have their own advisors take over. So you still get a pretty decent multiple when you sell so that's really cool too. Right? Paul: Also, I met a.. in my travels on this world. I've met the company and actually finance you if you want to buy on someone else's practice in the financial visor word world. Allen: Hmm.. So have you looked into that? Paul: I had a conversation or two with them, but I haven't really pursued it further. Yeah. Because I didn't know if I wanted to buy a larger practice. Right? Yeah. Because generally, that is a seven year payout to do that. So, you know, seven years, you'd be free and clear. Allen: That'll be interesting. Yeah. So a lot of ways to skin this cat. So you would I mean, I'm assuming that if anybody asked you, Hey, should I do this? Probably the answer is yes. Paul: Yeah, I mean, just mean, talk to people who have done it, and sort of figure out if it's a good fit for you, you know? Yeah. It's definitely can be pretty lucrative. Allen: Right? And I like the fact that it's like, for you at least it's more localized, you know, so you're not competing with somebody in California or Canada, or whatever. It's like, yeah, you guys get your clients over there. I'll have my clients over here. You know, they love me, they trust me. We hang out maybe. And sometimes. So it's not like a competitive situation. So, right. Awesome. Are you in any? Are there any, like, associations or memberships for advisors?  Paul: No, I'm not. Allen: No, but obviously, they probably have them? Paul: Yeah, I'm just not familiar. Very familiar with that. I have another advisor to hang out with suddenly sort of share some ideas. That's, that's all I have right now. Allen: And they're also private. Like on their own? Paul: Now, one of the reasons I didn't cover this in the beginning, like when I started looking into this whole thing, I didn't want to get clients and then share my fees with other people. That's why I didn't latch on to a bigger firm and start building my clients from there. So that's why I started my own Ra. So they will be my clients. And I get all the fees for them. And no one else had had rights to him. So that's, that's one of the reasons I did the way I did it. Allen: Okay. Okay. So what would be the benefits of going with a larger firm just to name recognition? Paul: Well, they have, one of the biggest things is called compliance. So like, right now, I'm my own compliance officer for my firm, okay, and larger firm like that they have whole departments that take care of compliance, for you to make sure you don't get in trouble, the regulators and so forth. So, like this other advisor, I had, he joined another firm, just so you could have that compliance piece to it. But in his firm, he can't trade options. Right? Allen: Because they're very limited. Yeah, exactly.  Paul: It's taught me to join his is up, like can't trade options. Allen: Because compliance says no. Paul: It was on the client's officer. Allen: Right. So that's why when you said you were thinking about advertising, it's the risk is on you because you're the compliance officer. So you got to know exactly what can be done and what can't be done. Right. Right. Interesting, cool. Is there anything else because  I'm out of questions. Paul: One of the things, one of the things I tell you, I looked into going with other companies, other inactive brokers when I started, okay, and like Charles Schwab wanted you to have $7 million you're managing before you could go with them. Allen: Whoa, okay. And they're the biggest right right now, I think. Paul: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one reasons with Interactive Brokers, because they didn't have the minimums like that. I didn't really check too much rather than other people. Allen: So and how's your customer service at Interactive Brokers, because they for personal accounts, they don't have a good reputation. Paul: Yeah, they have a separate line, you can call as a professional advisor. So it's, I get pretty quick attention. Usually, you know, it's not it's not perfect, but you know, it's decent. Yeah, but you're happy. Yeah, I'm not saying that. I'm sure other companies have better customer service but you know, for right now, they, you know, I might need to call him a few times, but I get what I needed if I need need to.. Allen: And how are their margins and Commissions? Paul: Commission's are pretty low. I don't have the exact numbers I just know less than like $1 per 100 shares. Allen: And who comes out of the customers account? Obviously. Paul: Each person like when you do a trade display something all the counselee they pick up their own fees. Allen: Cool. All right. Well, thank you Paul. You know, Paul's website is again BusinessAdvisors.Pro. Paul said that he could reach out you know, you guys can reach out to him if you have any questions. And Paul is also in our other memberships are other programs as well past trading formula blank check and credit spread. So if you guys are members of those, you can reach out to him there. You'll find him in the group. And he's been very gracious with his time. So I do want to thank you and And he's very active in the group and you know you've been helping a lot of newer people as well they're so appreciate you there. Interesting place, interesting world and as I dive in I'm probably going to reach out to you more. Paul: Sounds great, I appreciate it.  Allen: Thank you thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon JOIN OUR FREE PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps. Thank you!

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00:58 - Paul's Superpower: Participating in Scary Things 02:19 - EventStorming (https://www.eventstorming.com/) * Optimized For Collaboration * Visualizing Processes * Working Together * Sticky (Post-it) Notes (https://www.post-it.com/3M/en_US/post-it/products/~/Post-it-Products/Notes/?N=4327+5927575+3294529207+3294857497&rt=r3) 08:35 - Regulation: Avoiding Overspecifics * “The Happy Path” * Timeboxing * Parking Lot (https://project-management.fandom.com/wiki/Parking_lot) * Inside Pixar (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13302848/#:~:text=This%20documentary%20series%20of%20personal,culture%20of%20Pixar%20Animation%20Studios.) * Democratization * Known Unknowns 15:32 - Facilitation and Knowledge Sharing * Iteration and Refinement * Knowledge Distillation / Knowledge Crunching * Clarifying Terminology: Semantics is Meaning * Embracing & Exposing Fuzziness (Complexities) 24:20 - Key Events * Narrative Shift * Domain-Driven Design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-driven_design) * Shift in Metaphor 34:22 - Collaboration & Teamwork * Perspective * Mitigating Ambiguity 39:29 - Remote EventStorming and Facilitation * Miro (https://miro.com/) * MURAL (https://www.mural.co/) 47:38 - EventStorming vs Event Sourcing (https://martinfowler.com/eaaDev/EventSourcing.html) * Sacrificing Rigor For Collaboration 51:14 - Resources * The EventStorming Handbook (https://leanpub.com/eventstorming_handbook) * Paul's Upcoming Workshops (https://www.virtualgenius.com/events) * @thepaulrayner (https://twitter.com/thepaulrayner) Reflections: Mandy: Eventstorming and its adjacence to Technical Writing. Damien: You can do this on a small and iterative scale. Jess: Shared understanding. Paul: Being aware of the limitations of ideas you can hold in your head. With visualization, you can hold it in more easily and meaningfully. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDY: Welcome to Episode 271 of Greater Than Code. My name is Mandy Moore and I'm here today with a guest, but returning panelist. I'm happy to see Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Mandy. It's great to see you. I'm also excited to be here today with Damien Burke! DAMIEN: And I am excited to be here with both of you and our guest today, Paul Rayner. Paul Rayner is one of the leading practitioners of EventStorming and domain-driven design. He's the author of The EventStorming Handbook, co-author of Behavior-Driven Development with Cucumber, and the founder and chair of the Explore DDD conference. Welcome to the show, Paul. PAUL: Thanks, Damien. Great to be here. DAMIEN: Great to have you. And so you know, you are prepared, you are ready for our first and most famous question here on Greater Than Code? PAUL: I don't know if I'm ready, or prepared, but I can answer it, I think. [laughter] DAMIEN: I know you have prepared, so I don't know if you are prepared. PAUL: Right. DAMIEN: Either way, here it comes. [chuckles] What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? PAUL: Okay. So a couple of weeks ago, there's a lake near my house, and the neighbors organized a polar plunge. They cut a big hole in the ice and everyone lines up and you basically take turns jumping into the water and then swimming to the other side and climbing out the ladder. So my superpower is participating in a polar plunge and I acquired that by participating with my neighbors. There was barbecue, there was a hot tub, and stuff like that there, too. So it was very, very cool. It's maybe not a superpower, though because there were little kids doing this also. So it's not like it was only me doing it. JESSICA: I'll argue that your superpower is participating in scary things because you're also on this podcast today! PAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, there we go. DAMIEN: Yeah, that is very scary. Nobody had to be fished out of the water? No hospital, hypothermia, any of that? PAUL: No, there was none of that. It was actually a really good time. I mean, being in Denver, blue skies, it was actually quite a nice day to jump into frozen. MANDY: So Paul, you're here today to talk about EventStorming. I want to know what your definition of that is, what it is, and why it's a cool topic to be talking about on Greater Than Code. PAUL: Okay. Well, there's a few things there. So firstly, what is EventStorming? I've been consulting, working with teams for a long time, coaching them and a big part of what I try and do is to try and bridge the gap between what the engineers, the developers, the technical people are trying to build in terms of the software, and what the actual problem is they're trying to solve. EventStorming is a technique for just mapping out a process using sticky notes where you're trying to describe the story of what it is that you're building, how that fits into the business process, and use the sticky notes to layer in variety of information and do it in a collaborative kind of way. So it's really about trying to bridge that communication gap and uncover assumptions that people might have, expose complexity and risk through the process, and with the goal of the software that you write actually being something that solves the real problem that you're trying to solve. I think it's a good topic for Greater Than Code based on what I understand about the podcast, because it certainly impacts the code that you write, touches on that, and connects with the design. But it's really optimized for collaboration, it's optimized for people with different perspectives being able to work together and approach it as visualizing processes that people create, and then working together to be able to do that. So there's a lot of techniques out there that are very much optimized from a developer perspective—UML diagrams, flow charts, and things like that. But EventStorming really, it sacrifices some of that rigor to try and draw people in and provide a structured conversation. I think with the podcast where you're trying to move beyond just the code and dig into the people aspects of this a lot more, I think it really touches on that in a meaningful way. JESSICA: You mentioned that with a bunch of stickies, a bunch of different people, and their perspectives, EventStorming layers in different kinds of information. PAUL: Mm hm. JESSICA: Like what? PAUL: Yeah. So the way that usually approach it is, let's say, we're modeling, visualizing some kind of process like somebody registering for a certain thing, or even somebody, maybe a more common example, purchasing something online and let's say, that we have the development team that's responsible for implementing how somebody might return a product to a merchant, something like that. The way it would work is you describe that process as events where each sticky note represents something that happened in the story of returning a product and then you can layer on questions. So if people have questions, use a different colored sticky note for highlighting things that people might be unsure of, what assumptions they might be making, differences in terminology, exposing those types of unknowns and then once you've sort of laid out that timeline, you can then layer in things like key events, what you might call emergent structures. So as you look at that timeline, what might be some events that are more important than others? JESSICA: Can you make that concrete for me? Give me an example of some events in the return process and then…? PAUL: Yeah. So let's say, the customer receives a product that they want to return. You could have an event like customer receive product and then an event that is customer reported need for return. And then you would have a shift in actor, like a shift in the person doing the work where maybe the merchant has to then merchant sent return package to customer. So we're mapping out each one of these as an event in the process and then the customer receives, or maybe it's a shipping label. The customer receives the shipping label and then they put the items in the package with the shipping label and they return it. And then there would be a bunch of events that the merchant would have to take care of. So the merchant would have to receive that package and then probably have to update the system to record that it's been returned. And then, I imagine there would be processing another order, or something like that. A key event in there might be something like sending out the shipping label and the customer receiving the shipping label because that's a point where the responsibility transfers from the merchant, who is preparing the shipping label and dispatching that, to the customer that's actually receiving it and then having to do something. That's just one, I guess, small example of you can use that to divide that story up into what you might think of as chapters where there's different responsibilities and changes in the narrative. Part of that maybe layering in sticky notes that represent who's doing the work. Like who's the actor, whether it's the merchant, or the customer, and then layering in other information, like the systems that are involved in that such as maybe there's email as a system, maybe there's the actual e-commerce platform, a payment gateway, these kinds of things could be reflected and so on, like there's – [overtalk] JESSICA: Probably integration with the shipper. PAUL: Integration with the shipper, right. So potentially, if you're designing this, you would have some kind of event to go out to the shipper to then know to actually pick up the package and that type of thing. And then once the package is actually delivered back to the merchant, then there would be some kind of event letting the merchant know. It's very hard to describe because I'm trying to picture this in my mind, which is an inherently visual thing. It's probably not that interesting to hear me describing something that's usually done on some kind of either mirror board, like some kind of electronic space, or on a piece of butcher's paper, or – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Something with a lot of sticky notes. PAUL: Something with a lot of sticky notes, right. DAMIEN: Which, I believe for our American listeners, sticky notes are the little square pieces of brightly colored paper with self-adhesive strip on the back. PAUL: Yeah. The stickies. DAMIEN: Stickies. [chuckles] I have a question about this process. I've been involved in very similar processes and it sounds incredibly useful. But as you describe it, one of the concerns I have is how do you avoid getting over specific, or over described? Like you can describe systems until you're talking about the particles in the sun, how do you know when to stop? PAUL: So I think there's a couple of things. Number one is at the start of whatever kind of this activity, this EventStorming is laying out what's the goal? What are we trying to accomplish in terms of the process? With returns, for example, it would be maybe from this event to this event, we're trying to map out what that process looks like and you start with what you might call the happy path. What does it look like when everything goes well? And then you can use pink stickies to represent alternate paths, or things going wrong and capture those. If they're not tied back to this goal, then you can say, “Okay, I think we've got enough level of detail here.” The other thing is time boxing is saying, “Okay, well, we've only got half an hour, or we've only got an hour so let's see how much we can do in that time period,” and then at the end of that, if you still have a lot of questions, then you can – or you feel like, “Oh, we need to dig into some of these areas more.” Then you could schedule a follow up session to dig into that a little bit more. So it's a combination of the people that are participating in this deciding how much level of detail they want to go down to. What I find is it typically is something that as you're going through the activity, you start to see. “Oh, maybe this is too far down in the weeds versus this is the right level.” As a facilitator, I don't typically prescribe that ahead of time, because it's much easier to add sticky notes and then talk about them than it is to have a conversation when there's nothing visualized. I like to visualize it first and lay it out and then it's very easy to say, “Oh, well, this looks like too much detail. So we'll just put a placeholder for that and not worry about out it right now.” It's a little bit of the facilitation technique of having a parking lot where you can say, “Okay, this is a good topic, but maybe we don't need to get down in that right now. Maybe let's refocus back on what it is that we're trying to accomplish.” JESSICA: So there's some regulation that happens naturally during the meeting, during interactions and you can have that regulation in the context of the visual representation, which is the EventStorming, the long row of stickies from one event to the other. PAUL: Right, the timeline that you're building up. So it's a little bit in my mind, I watched last year, I think it was on Netflix. There was a documentary about Pixar and how they do their storyboarding process for their movies and it is exactly that. They storyboard out the movie and iterate over that again and again and again telling that story. What's powerful about that is it's a visual medium so you have someone that is sketching out the main beats of the story and then they're talking it through. Not to say that EventStorming is at that level of rigor, but it has that kind of feel to it of we're laying out these events to tell the story and then we're talking through the story and seeing what we've missed and where we need to add more detail, maybe where we've added too much detail. And then like you said, Jess, there's a certain amount of self-regulation in there in terms of, do we have enough time to go down into this? Is this important right now? JESSICA: And I imagine that when I have questions that go further into detail than we were able to go in the meeting, if I've been in that EventStorming session, I know who to ask. PAUL: That's the idea, yeah. So the pink stickies that we said represent questions, what I like about those is, well, several things. Number one, it democratizes the idea that it's okay to ask questions, which I think is a really powerful technique. I think there's a tendency in meetings for some people to hold back and other people to do all the talking. We've all experienced that. What this tries to do is to democratize that and actually make it not only okay and not only accepted, but encourage that you're expected to ask questions and you're expected to put these sticky notes on here when there's things that you don't understand. JESSICA: Putting the questions on a sticky note, along with the events, the actors, and the things that we do know go on sticky notes, the questions also go on sticky notes. All of these are contributions. PAUL: Exactly. They value contributions and what I love about that is that even people that are new to this process, it's a way for them to ask questions in a way that is kind of friendly to them. I've seen this work really well, for example, with onboarding new team members and also, it encourages the idea that we have different areas of expertise. So in any given process, or any business story, whatever you want to characterize it as, some people are going to know more about some parts of it than others. What typically happens is nobody knows the whole story, but when we work together, we can actually build up an approximation of that whole story and help each other fill in the gaps. So you may have the person that's more on the business, or the product side explaining some terminology. You can capture those explanations on sticky notes as a glossary that you're building up as you go. You can have engineers asking questions about the sequence of events in terms of well, does this one come before that one? And then the other thing that's nice about the questions is it actually as you're going, it's mapping out your ignorance and I see that as a positive thing. JESSICA: The known unknowns. PAUL: Known unknowns. It takes unknown unknowns, which the kind of elephant in the room, and at least gets them up as known unknowns that you can then have a conversation around. Because there's often this situation of a question that somebody's afraid to ask and maybe they're new to the team, or maybe they're just not comfortable asking that type of question. But it gives you actually a map of that ignorance so you can kind of see oh, there's this whole area here that just has a bunch of pink stickies. So that's probably not an area we're ready to work on and we should prioritize. Actually, if this is an area that we need to be working on soon, we should prioritize getting answers to these questions by maybe we need to do a proof of concept, or some UX work, or maybe some kind of prototyping around this area, or like you said, Jess, maybe the person that knows the answers to these questions is just not in this session right now and so, we need to follow up with them, get whatever answers we need, and then come back and revisit things. JESSICA: So you identify areas of risk. PAUL: Yes. Areas of risk, both from a product perspective and also from a technical perspective as well. DAMIEN: So what does it take to have one of these events, or to facilitate one of these events? How do you know when you're ready and you can do it? PAUL: So I've done EventStorming [chuckles] as a conference activity in a hallway with sticky notes and we say, “Okay, let's as a little bit of an icebreaker here –” I usually you do the story of Cinderella. “Let's pick the Disney story of Cinderella and we'll just EventStorm this out. Just everyone, here are some orange sticky notes and a Sharpie, just write down some things that you remember happening in that story,” and then everyone writes a few. We post it up on the hallway wall and then we sequence them as a timeline and then we can basically build up that story in about 5, or 10 minutes from scratch. With a business process, it's not that different. It's like, okay, we're going to do returns, or something like that and if people are already familiar with the technique, then just give them a minute, or so to think of some things that they know that would happen in that process. And then they do that individually and then we just post them up on the timeline and then sequence them as a group and it can happen really quickly. And then everything from there is refinement. Iteration and refinement over what you've put up as that initial skeleton. DAMIEN: Do you ever find that a team comes back a week, or a day, or a month later and goes, “Oh, there is this big gap in our narrative because nobody in this room understood the warehouse needed to be reordered in order to send this thing down”? PAUL: Oh, for sure. Sometimes it's big gaps. Sometimes it's a huge cluster of pink sticky notes that represents an area where there's just a lot of risk and unknowns that the team maybe hasn't thought about all that much. Like you said, it could be there's this third-party thing that it wasn't until everyone got in a room and kind of started to map it out, that they realized that there was this gap in their knowledge. JESSICA: Yeah. Although, you could completely miss it if there's nobody from the warehouse in the room and nobody has any idea that you need to tell the warehouse to expect this return. PAUL: Right and so, part of that is putting a little bit of thought into who would need to be part of this and in a certain way, playing devil's advocate in terms of what don't we know, what haven't we thought of. So it encourages that sense of curiosity with this and it's a little bit different from – Some of the listeners maybe have experienced user story mapping and other techniques like that. Those tend to be focused on understanding a process, but they're very much geared towards okay, how do we then figure out how we're going to code up this feature and how do we slice it up into stories and prioritize that. So it's similar in terms of sticky notes, but the emphasis in EventStorming is more on understanding together, the problem that we're trying to address from a business perspective. JESSICA: Knowledge pulling. PAUL: Yeah. Knowledge pulling, knowledge distillation, those types of idea years, and that kind of mindset. So not just jumping straight to code, but trying to get a little bit of a shared understanding of what all is the thing that we're trying to actually work on here. JESSICA: Eric Evans calls it knowledge crunching. PAUL: Yes, Eric called it knowledge crunching. DAMIEN: I love that phrase, that shared understanding. That's what we, as product teams, are generating is a shared understanding both, captured in our documentation, in our code, and before that, I guess on large sheets of butcher paper. [laughs] PAUL: Well, and it could be a quick exercise of okay, we're going to be working on some new feature and let's just spend 15 minutes just mapping it out to get a sense of, are we on the same page with this? JESSICA: Right, because sometimes it's not even about we think we need to know something, it's do we know enough? Let's find out. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: And is that knowledge shared among us? PAUL: Right, and maybe exposing, like it could be as simple as slightly different terminology, or slightly different understanding of terminology between people that can have a big impact in terms of that. I was teaching a workshop last night where we were talking about this, where somebody had written the event. So there was a repair process that a third-party repair company would handle and then the event that closed that process off, they called case closed. So then the question becomes well, what does case closed mean? Because the word case – [overtalk] JESSICA: [laughs] It's like what's the definition of done? PAUL: Right, exactly. [laughter] Because that word case didn't show up anywhere earlier in the process. So is this like a new concept? Because the thing that kicks off the process is repair purchase order created and at the end of the process, it's said case closed. So then the question becomes well, is case closed really, is that a new concept that we actually need to implement here? Or is this another way of saying that we are getting a copy of that repair purchase order back that and it's been updated with details about what the repair involved? Or maybe it's something like repair purchase order closed. So it's kind of forcing us to clarify terminology, which may seem a little bit pedantic, but that's what's going to end up in the code. If you can get some of those things exposed a little earlier before you actually jump to code and get people on the same page and surface any sort of differences in terminology and misunderstandings, I think that can be super helpful for everyone. JESSICA: Yeah. Some people say it's just semantics. Semantics' meaning, its only meaning, this is only about out what this step actually means because when you put it in the code, the code is crystal clear. It is going to do exactly what it does and whether that clarity matches the shared understanding that we think we have oh, that's the difference between a bug and a working system. DAMIEN: [laughs] That's beautiful. It's only meaning. [laughs] JESSICA: Right? Yeah. But this is what makes programming hard is that pedanticness. The computer is the ultimate pedant. DAMIEN: Pedant. You're going to be pedantic about it. [laughter] PAUL: I see what you did there. [laughter] DAMIEN: And that is the occupation, right? That is what we do is look at and create systems and then make them precise. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: In a way that actually well, is precise. [laughs] JESSICA: Right, and the power of our human language is that it's not precise, that it allows for ambiguity, and therefore, a much broader range of meaning. But as developers, it's our job to be precise. We have to be precise to the computers. It helps tremendously to be precise with each other. DAMIEN: Yeah, and I think that's actually the power of human cognition is that it's not precise. We are very, very fuzzy machines and anyone who tries to pretend otherwise will be greatly disappointed. Ask me how I know. [laughter] PAUL: Well, and I think what I'm trying to do with something like EventStorming is to embrace the fuzziness, is to say that that's actually an asset and we want to embrace that and expose that fuzziness, that messiness. Because the processes we have and work with are often inherently complex. We are trying to provide some visual representation of that so we can actually get our head around, or our minds around the language complexities, the meanings, and drive in a little bit to that meaning. JESSICA: So when the sticky notes pile on top of each other, that's a feature. PAUL: It is. Going back to that example I was just talking about, let's say, there's a bunch of, like we do the initial part of this for a minute, or so where people are creating sticky notes and let's say, we end up with four, or five sticky notes written by different people on top of each other that end up on the timeline that all say pretty much the same thing with slight variations. JESSICA: Let's say, case closed, request closed. PAUL: Case closed, repair purchase order closed, repair purchase order updated, repair purchase order sent. So from a meaning perspective, I look at that and I say, “That's gold in terms of information,” because that's showing us that there's a richness here. Firstly, that's a very memorable thing that's happening in the timeline – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh and it has multiple things. PAUL: That maybe means it's a key event. Right, and then what is the meaning? Are these the same things? Are they different things? Maybe we don't have enough time in that session to dig into that, but if we're going to implement something around that, or work with something around that, then we're going to at some point need some clarity around the language, the terminology, and what these concepts mean. Also, the sequence as well, because it might be that there's actually multiple events being expressed there that need to be teased apart. DAMIEN: You used this phrase a couple times, “key event,” and since you've used it a couple times, I think it might be key. [laughter] Can you tell us a little bit about what a key event is? What makes something a key event? PAUL: Yeah, the example I like to use is from the Cinderella story. So if you think about the story of Cinderella, one of the things, when people are doing that as an icebreaker, they always end up being multiple copies of the event that usually is something like shoe lost, or slipper lost, or glass slipper lost. There's something about that event that makes it memorable, firstly and then there's something about that event that makes it pivotal in the story. For those that are not familiar with the story [chuckles]—I am because I've EventStormed this thing maybe a hundred times—but there's this part. Another key event is the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic at the start and she actually describes a business policy. She says, “The magic is going to run out at midnight,” and like all business policies, it's vague [laughter] and it's unclear as to what it means because – [overtalk] JESSICA: The carriage disappears, the dress disappears, but not the slipper that fell off. PAUL: Exactly. There's this exception that for some bizarre reason, to move the plot forward, the slipper stays. But then the definition of midnight is very hazy because what she's actually describing, in software terms, is a long running process of the clock banging 12 times, which is what midnight means is the time between the first and the twelfth and during that time, the magic is slowly unraveling. JESSICA: So midnight is a duration, not an instant. PAUL: Exactly. Yes, it's a process, not an event. So coming back to the question that Damien asked about key events. That slipper being lost is a key event in that story, I think because it actually is a shift in narrative. Up until that point in the story, it's the story of Cinderella and then after that, once the slipper is lost, it becomes the story of the prince looking for Cinderella. And then at the end, you get the day tomorrow, the stuff that happens with that slipper at the end of the story. Another key event would be like the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic. DAMIEN: [chuckles] It seems like these are necessary events, right? If the slipper is not lost, if the fairy godmother doesn't do magic, you don't have the story of Cinderella. PAUL: Right. These are narrative turns, right? DAMIEN: Yeah. PAUL: These are points of the story shifts and so, key events can sometimes be a narrative shift where it's driving the story forward in a business process. Something like, let's say, you're working on an e-commerce system, like order submitted is a key event because you are adding items to a shopping cart and then at some point, you make a decision to submit the order and then at that point, it transitions from order being a draft thing that is in a state of flux to it actually becomes essentially immutable and gets passed over to fulfilment. So there's a shift in responsibility and actor between these two as well just like between Cinderella and the prince. JESSICA: A shift in who is driving the story forward. PAUL: Right. Yeah. So it's who is driving the story forward. So these key events often function as a shift in actor, a shift in who's driving the story forward, or who has responsibility. They also often indicate a handoff because of that from one group to another in an organization. Something like a sales process that terminates in contract signed. That key event is also the goal of the sales process. The goal is to get to contract signed and then once that happens, there's usually a transition to say, an onboarding group that actually onboards the new customer in the case of a sales process for a new customer, or in e-commerce, it would be the fulfillment part, the warehousing part that Jess was talking about earlier. That's actually responsible for the fulfillment piece, which is they take that order, they create a package, they put all the items in the package, create the shipping label, and ship it out to the customer. JESSICA: And in domain-driven design, you talked about the shift from order being a fluid thing that's changing as people add stuff to their cart to order being immutable. The word order has different meanings for the web site where you're buying stuff and the fulfillment system, there's a shift in that term. PAUL: Right, and that often happens around a key event, or a pivotal event is that there's a shift from one, you might think of it as context, or language over to another. So preorder submission, it's functioning as a draft order, but what it's actually typically called is a shopping cart and a shopping cart is not the same as an order. It's a great metaphor because there is no physical cart, but we all know what that means as a metaphor. A shopping cart is a completely different metaphor from an order, but we're able to understand that thread of continuity between I have this interactive process of taking items, or products, putting them in the shopping cart, or out again. And then at some point that shopping cart, which is functioning as a draft order, actually it becomes an order that has been submitted and then it gets – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Yeah, the metaphor doesn't really work until that transition. You have a shopping cart and then you click purchase and now what? [laughs] You're not going to the register and ringing it up, that doesn't make any sense. [chuckles] The metaphor kind of has to end there. JESSICA: You're not leaving the cart in the corral in the parking lot. [laughter] PAUL: Well, I think what they're trying to do is when you think about going through the purchase process at a store, you take your items up in the shopping cart and then at that point, you transition into a financial transaction that has to occur that then if you were at a big box electronic store, or something, eventually, you would make the payment. You would submit payment. That would be the key events and that payment is accepted and then you receive a receipt, which is kind of the in-person version of a record of your order that you've made because you have to bring the receipt back. DAMIEN: It sort of works if the thing you're putting in the shopping cart are those little cards. When they don't want to put things on the shelf, they have a card, you pick it up, and you take it to register. They ring it up, they give you a receipt, and hopefully, the thing shows up in the mail someday, or someone goes to the warehouse and goes gets it. PAUL: We've all done that. [chuckles] Sometimes it shows up. Sometimes it doesn't. JESSICA: That's an interesting point that at key events, there can be a shift in metaphor. PAUL: Yes. Often, there is. So for example, I mentioned earlier, a sales process ending in a contract and then once the contract is signed, the team – let's say, you're signing on a new customer, for a SaaS service, or something like that. Once they've signed the contract, the conversation isn't really about the contract anymore. It's about what do we need to do to onboard this customer. Up until that point, the emphasis is maybe on payment, legal disclosures, and things like that. But then the focus shifts after the contract is signed to more of an operational focus of how do we get the data in, how do we set up their accounts correctly, that type of thing. JESSICA: The contract is an input to that process. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Whereas, it was the output, the big goal of the sales process. PAUL: Yes, exactly. So these key events also function from a systems perspective, when you think about moving this to code that event then becomes almost like a message potentially. Could be implemented as say, a message that's being passed from the sales system through to the onboarding system, or something like that. So it functions as the integration point between those two, where the language has to be translated from one context to another. JESSICA: And it's an integration point we can define carefully so that makes it a strong boundary and a good place to divide the system. DAMIEN: Nice. PAUL: Right. So that's where it starts to connect to some of the things that people really care about these days in terms of system decomposition and things like that. Because you can start thinking about based on a process view of this, based on a behavior view of this, if we treat these key events as potential emergent boundaries in a process, like we've been describing, that we discover through mapping out the process, then that can give us some clues as to hmm maybe these boundaries don't exist in the system right now, but they could. These could be places where we start to tease things apart. JESSICA: Right. Where you start breaking out separate services and then when you get down to the user story level, the user stories expect a consistent language within themselves. You're not going to go from cart to return purchase in a case. PAUL: [laughs] Right. JESSICA: In a single user story. User stories are smaller scope and work within a single language. PAUL: Right and so, I think the connection there in my mind is user stories have to be written in some kind of language, within some language context and mapping out the process can help you understand where you are in that context and then also understand, like if you think about a process that maybe has a sales part of the process and then an onboarding part, it'll often be the case that there's different development teams that are focusing on different parts of that process. So it provides a way of them seeing what their integration point is and what might need to happen across that integration point. If they were to either integrate to different systems, or if they're trying to tease apart an existing system. To use Michael Feathers' term, what might be a “scene” that we could put in here that would allow us to start teasing these things apart. And doing it with the knowledge of the product people that are part of the visualization, too is that this isn't something typically that engineers do exclusively from a technical perspective. The idea with EventStorming is you are also bringing in other perspectives like product, business, stakeholders, and anyone that might have more of that business perspective in terms of what the goals of the process are and what the steps are in the process. MID-ROLL: And now a quick word from our sponsor. I hear people say the VPNs have a reputation for slowing down your internet speed, but not with NordVPN, because it's the fastest VPN in the world. I don't have to sacrifice internet speed for better security. With NordVPN, my internet traffic is routed through a secure encrypted tunnel, which protects my data and privacy. I can also have it on up to six devices like my laptop, phone, TV, iPad—all my devices are protected. Grab your exclusive NordVPN deal by going to nordvpn.com/gtc, or use the code GTC to get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan plus one additional month for free. Plus, a bonus gift! It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. JESSICA: As a developer, it's so important to understand what those goals are, because that lets us make good decisions when we're down in the weeds and getting super precise. PAUL: Right, I think so. I think often, I see teams that are implementing stories, but not really understanding the why behind that in terms of maybe they get here's the functionality on delivering and how that fits into the system. But like I talked about before, when you're driving a process towards a key event, that becomes the goal of that subprocess. So the question then becomes how does the functionality that I'm going to implement that's described in this user story actually move people towards that goal and maybe there's a better way of implementing it to actually get them there. DAMIEN: Yeah, it's always important to keep that in mind, because there's always going to be ambiguity until you have a running system, or ran system, honestly. JESSICA: Yeah! DAMIEN: There's always going to be ambiguity, which it is our job as people writing code to manage and we need to know. Nobody's going to tell us exactly what's going to happen because that's our job. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: It's like if the developer had a user story that Cinderella's slipper fell off, but they do didn't realize that the goal of that was that the prince picked it up, then they might be like, “Oh, slipper broke. That's fine.” PAUL: Yeah. JESSICA: It's off the foot. Check the box. PAUL: Let's create a glass slipper factory implementer object [laughter] so that we can just create more of those. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. What, you wanted a method slip off in one piece? You didn't say that. I've created crush! PAUL: Right. [laughter] Yeah. So I think sometimes there's this potential to get lost in the weeds of the everyday development work that is happening and I like to tie it back to what is the actual story that we're supporting. And then sometimes what people think of as exception cases, like an example might be going back to that merchant return example is what if they issue the shipper label, but the buyer never receives it. We may say, “Well, that's never going to happen,” or “That's unlikely.” But visualizing that case, you may say, “That's actually a strong possibility. How do we handle that case and bake that into the design so that it actually reflects what we're trying to do?” JESSICA: And then you make an event that just triggers two weeks later that says, “Check whether customer received label.” PAUL: Yes, exactly. One thing you can do as well is like – so that's one possibility of solving it. The idea what EventStorming can let you do is say, “Well, that's one way of doing it. Are there any other options in terms of how we could handle this, let's visualize.” With any exception case, or something, you could say, “Well, let's try solving this a few different ways. Just quickly come up with some different ideas and then we can pull the best of those ideas into that.” So the idea when you're modeling is to say, “Okay, well, there's probably more than one way to address this. So maybe let's get a few ideas on the table and then pick the best out of these.” JESSICA: Or address it at multiple levels. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: A fallback for the entire process is customer contact support again. PAUL: Right, and that may be the simple answer in that kind of case. What we're trying to do, though is to visualize that case as an option and then talk about it, have a structured conversation around it, say, “Well, how would we handle that?” Which I think from a product management perspective is a key thing to do is to engage the engineers in saying, “Well, what are some different ways that we could handle this and solve this?” If you have people that are doing responsibility primarily for testing in that, then having them weigh in on, well, how would we test this? What kind of test cases might we need to handle for this? So it's getting – [overtalk] JESSICA: How will we know it worked? PAUL: Different perspectives and opinions on the table earlier rather than later. JESSICA: And it's cheap. It's cheap, people. It's a couple hours and a lot of post-its. You can even buy the generic post-its. We went to Office Depot yesterday, it's $10 for 5 little Post-it pads, [laughter] or 25 Office Depot brand post-it pads. They don't have to stay on the wall very long; the cheap ones will work. PAUL: [laughs] So those all work and then it depends if you have shares in 3M, I guess, with you. [laughter] Or Office Depot, depending which road you want to go down. [laughter] JESSICA: Or if you really care about that shade of pale purple, which I do. PAUL: Right. I mean, what's been fascinating to me is in the last 2 years with switching to remote work and that is so much of, 95% of the EventStorming I do these days is on a collaborative whiteboard tool like Miro, or MURAL, which I don't know why those two product names are almost exactly the same. But then it's even cheaper because you can sign up for a free account, invite a few people, and then just start adding sticky notes to some virtual whiteboard and do it from home. There's a bunch of things that you can do on tool like that with copy pasting, moving groups of sticky notes around, rearranging things, and ordering things much – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you never run out of wall. PAUL: Yeah. The idea with the butcher's paper in a physical workshop, in-person workshop is you're trying to create a sense of unending modeling space that you can use. That you get for free when you use online collaborative whiteboarding tool. It's just there out of – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you can zoom in. PAUL: And you zoom in and out. Yeah. There's a – [overtalk] JESSICA: Stickies on your stickies on your stickies. [laughter] I'm not necessarily recommending that, but you can do it. PAUL: Right. The group I was working with last night, they'd actually gone to town using Miro emojis. They had something bad happen in the project and they've got the horror emoji [laughter] and then they've got all kinds of and then copy pasting images off the internet for things. JESSICA: Nice. PAUL: So yeah, can make it even more fun. JESSICA: Okay. So it's less physical, but in a lot of ways it can be more expressive, PAUL: I think so. More expressive and just as engaging and it can break down the geographical barriers. I've done sessions where we've had people simultaneously spread in multiple occasions across the US and Europe in the same session, all participating in real-time. If you're doing it remote, I like to keep it short. So maybe we do like a 2-hour session with a 10- or 15-minute break in the middle, because you're trying to manage people's energy and keep them focused and it's hard to do that when you just keep going. MANDY: I kind of want to talk a little bit about facilitation and how you facilitate these kind of workshops and what you do, engage people and keep them interested. PAUL: Yeah. So I think that it depends a little bit on the level of detail we're working at. If it's at the level of a few team members trying to figure out a feature, then it can be very informal. Not a lot of facilitation required. Let's just write down what the goal is and then go through the process of brainstorming a few stickies, laying it out, and then sequencing it as a timeline, adding questions. It doesn't require a lot of facilitation hand. I think the key thing is just making sure that people are writing down their questions and that it's time boxed. So quitting while people are still interested and then [laughter] at the end, before you finish, having a little bit of a conversation around what might the next steps be. Like what did we learn? You could do a couple of minutes retrospective, add a sticky note for something you learned in this session, and then what do you see as our next steps and then move on from there with whatever action items come out of that. So that one doesn't require, I think a lot of facilitation and people can get up and running with that pretty quickly. I also facilitate workshops that are a lot more involved where it's at the other end of the spectrum, where it's a big picture workshop where we're mapping out maybe an entire value stream for an organization. We may have a dozen, 20 people involved in a session like that representing different departments, different organizational silos and in that case, it requires a lot more planning, a lot more thinking through what the goal of the workshop is, who would you need to invite? Because there's a lot more detail involved and a lot more people involved, that could be four, or five multi-hour sessions spread over multiple days to be able to map out an entire value stream from soup to nuts. And then usually the goal of something like that is some kind of system modernization effort, or maybe spinning up a new project, or decomposing a legacy system, or even understanding what a legacy system does, or process improvement that will result inevitably in some software development in certain places. I did a workshop like that, I think last August and out of that, we identified a major bottleneck in the process that everyone in the workshop, I think it was just a bunch of pink stickies in one area that it got called the hot mess. [laughter] It was one area and what was happening was there were several major business concerns that were all coupled together in this system. They actually ended up spinning up a development team to focus on teasing apart the hot mess to figure out how do we decompose that down? JESSICA: Yes. PAUL: As far as I know, that effort was still ongoing as of December. I'm assuming that's still running because it was prioritized as we need to be able to decompose this part of this system to be able to grow and scale to where we want to get to. JESSICA: Yeah. That's a major business risk that they've got. They at least got clarity about where it is. PAUL: Right. Yeah, and what we did from there is I coached the developers through that process over several months. So we actually EventStormed it out at a much lower level. Once we figured out what the hot mess was, let's map it out and then they combined that with some flow charting and a bunch of other more engineering, kind of oriented visualization techniques, state machines, things like that to try and get a handle on what was going on. DAMIEN: We'll get UML in there eventually, right? PAUL: Eventually. [laughter] You can't do software development without some kind of state machine, sequence diagram. JESSICA: And it's approximating UML. You can't do it. You can't do it. [laughter] You will either use it, or you will derive a pigeon form of it. PAUL: Right. Well, I still use it for state diagrams and sequence diagrams when I'm down at that technical level. What I find is that there's a certain level of rigor that UML requires for a sequence diagram, or something like that that seems to get in the way of collaboration. So EventStorming sacrifices some of that rigor to be able to draw in everyone and have a low bar of entry to having people participate. DAMIEN: That's a huge insight. Why do you think that is? Is it the inability to hold that much information at a high level of rigor, or just people not used to working at that sort of precision and rigor? PAUL: I think that when I'm working with people that are not hands-on coders, they are in the everyday, like say, product managers, or stakeholders, to use those terms. They're in the everyday details of how the business process works and they tend to think of that process more as a series of steps that they're going through in a very specific kind of way. Like, I'm shipping a certain product, or supporting the shipping. or returning of certain types of products, those kinds of things. Whereas, as developers, we tend to think of it more in terms of the abstractions of the system and what we're trying to implement in the code. So the idea of being able to tell the story of a process in terms of the events that happen is a very natural thing, I find for people from a business perspective to do because that's how they tend to think about it. Whereas, I think as programmers, we're often taught not so much to think about behavior as a sequence of things happening, but more as the structure we've been taught to design in terms of structures and relationships rather than flow. JESSICA: Yet that's changing with event sourcing. PAUL: I think so. EventStorming and event sourcing become a very natural complement for each other and even event-driven architecture, or any event-driven messaging, whatever it happens to be. The gap between modeling using EventStorming and then designing some kind of event-driven distributed system, or even not distributed, but still event-driven is much more natural than trying to do something like an entity relationship diagram and they'd get from that to some kind of meaningful understanding of what's the story of how these functions and features are going to work. JESSICA: On the topic of sacrificing rigor for collaboration, I think you have to sacrifice rigor to work across content texts because you will find contradictions between them. The language does have different meaning before and after the order is submitted and you have to allow for that in the collaboration. It's not that you're not going to have the rigor. It's more that you're postponing it, you're scoping it as separately. This meeting is about the higher level and you need completeness over consistency. DAMIEN: Yeah. I feel like almost you have to sacrifice rigor to be effective in most roles and in that way, sacrifice is even the wrong word. Most of the things that we do as human beings do not allow for the sort of rigor of the things that we do as software engineers and things that computers do. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: And it's just, the world doesn't work that way. PAUL: Right. Well, and it's the focus in EventStorming on exploration, discovery, and urgent ideas versus rigor is more about not so much exploring and discovery, but about converging on certain things. So when someone says pedant and the other person says pedant, or vice versa, that tends to shut down the conversation because now you are trying to converge on some agreed upon term versus saying, “Well, let's explore a bunch of different ways this could be expressed and temporarily defer trying converge on.” JESSICA: Later in Slack, we'll vote. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Okay. So standardize later. PAUL: Yes. Standardize, converge later, and for now, let's kind of hold that at arm's length so that we can uncover and discover different perspectives on this in terms of how the story works and then add regulator when we go to code and then you may discover things in code where there are implicit concepts that you then need to take back to the modeling to try and figure out well, how do we express this? Coming up with some kind of term in the code and being able to go from there. JESSICA: Right. Some sort of potential return because it hasn't happened yet. PAUL: Exactly. So maybe it's a potential, maybe it's some other kind of potential return, like pending return, maybe we don't call it a return at all. JESSICA: Or disliked item because we could – or unsatisfactory item because we could intercept that and try to like, “Hey, how about we send you the screws that we're missing?” PAUL: Right. Yeah, maybe the answer is not a return at all. JESSICA: Yeah. PAUL: But maybe the case is that the customer says they want to return it, but you actually find a way to get them to buy more stuff by sending them something else that they would be happy with. So the idea is we're trying to promote discovery thinking when we are talking about how to understand certain problems and how to solve them rather than closing off options too soon. MANDY: So, Paul, I know you do give these workshops. Is there anything? Where can people find you? How can people learn more? How can people hire you to facilitate a workshop and get in touch with you? PAUL: Okay. Well, in terms of resources, Damien had mentioned at the beginning, I have an eBook up on Leanpub, The EventStorming Handbook, so if people are interested in learning more, they can get that. And then I do workshop facilitation and training through my company, Virtual Genius. They can go to virtualgenius.com and look at what training is available. It's all online these days, so they can participate from anywhere. We have some public workshops coming up in the coming months. And then they can find me, I'm @ThePaulRayner on Twitter, just to differentiate me from all the indefinite articles that are out there. [laughter] MANDY: Sounds good. Well, let's head into reflections. I can start. I just was thinking while we were talking about this episode, about how closely this ties into my background in professional writing, technical writing to be exact, and just how you have this process to lay out exactly what steps need to be taken and to differentiate when people say the same things and thinking about, “Well, they're saying the same things, but the words matter,” and to get pedantic, that can be a good thing, especially when you are writing technical documents and how-tos. I remember still, my first job being a technical writer and looking at people in a machine shop who it was like, first, you do this, then you do this, then you do this and to me, I was like, “This is so boring.” But it makes sense and it matters. So this has been a really good way for me to think about it as a newbie just likening it to technical writing. JESSICA: Yeah. Technical writing has to tell that story. DAMIEN: I'm going to be reflecting on this has been such a great conversation and I feel like I have a lot of familiarity with at least a very similar process. I brought up all my fears that come from them, which is like, what if we don't have the right person in the room? What if there's something we didn't discover? And you said something about how you can do this in 5 minutes and how you can do this in 15 minutes and I realized, “Oh, this process doesn't have to be the 6-hour things that I've participated in and facilitated in. It can also be done more smaller and more iteratively and I can bring this sort of same process and thought process into more of the daily work.” So that's super helpful for me. JESSICA: I want to reflect on a phrase that Paul said and then Damien emphasized, which is shared understanding. It's what we're trying to get to in EventStorming across teams and across functions. I think it's also like what we're constantly trying to get to as humans. We value shared understanding so much because we're trapped in our heads and my experience in my head is never going to be the same as your experience in your head. But at some point, we share the same physical world. So if we can get that visual representation, if we can be talking together about something in that visual world, we can pass ideas back and forth more meaningfully. We can achieve this shared understanding. We can build something together. And that feels so good. I think that that constant building of shared understanding is a lot of what it means to be human and I get really excited when I get to do that at work. PAUL: I think I would just add to that as well is being human, I'm very much aware of limitations in terms of how many ideas I can hold in my head at any one time. I know the times where I've been in the experience that many describe where someone's giving me a list of steps to follow and things like that, inevitably I'm like, “Well, I remember like the first two, maybe three,” and then everything after that is kind of Charlie Brown. What, what, why? [laughter] I don't remember anything they said from that point on. But when I can visualize something, then I can take it in one go. I can see it and we're building it together. So for me, it's a little bit of a mind hack in terms of getting over the limitations of how many things I can keep in my mind at one time. Also, like you said, Jess, getting those things out of my mind and out of other people's minds into a shared space where we can actually collaborate on them together, I think that's really important to be able to do that in a meaningful way. MANDY: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Paul. We really enjoyed this discussion. And if you, as listeners, would like to continue this conversation, please head over to Patreon.com/greaterthancode. We have a Slack channel. You can pledge and donate to sponsor us as little as a dollar and you can come in, hang out, talk with us about these episodes. If not, give me a DM on Twitter and let me know, and I'll let you in anyway because [laughter] that's what we do here at Greater Than Code. PAUL: Because Mandy's awesome. MANDY: [laughs] Thank you, Paul. With that, thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you again next week. Special Guest: Paul Rayner.

What you'll learn in this episode: What charnel houses and ossuaries are, and why they were an important part of people's spiritual lives Why the Catholic Church decorated hundreds of Roman skeletons with jewels in the 17th century Why 17th century nuns were some of the most skilled yet unrecognized jewelers of their day How art and jewelry can help us explore death and other touchy subjects About Paul Koudounaris Paul Koudounaris is an author and photographer based in Los Angeles. He holds a PhD in Art History from the University of California, and he has traveled around the world to document charnel houses, ossuaries, pet cemeteries, and other macabre subjects for both academic and popular journals. His books include The Empire of Death, Memento Mori, and Heavenly Bodies, which features the little-known skeletons taken from the Roman Catacombs in the seventeenth century and decorated with jewels by teams of nuns. His most recent book is A Cat's Tale: A Journey Through Feline History. Additional Resources: Instagram Photos: Rorschach upper half, chest with skull  Hergiswil stomach full shot Weyarn head with problem here due to discoloration behind skull due to back lighting through stained glass window Sonntagsberg felic chest detail Bad Schussenried head and chest Peterskirche munditia in shrine three problems, top over curtain over rope and weird candle Transcript: Today, covering a skeleton with jewels seems odd or downright morbid. In the 17th century, it was par for the course for the Catholic Church, which covered the skeletons of martyrs with jewels and lavish accessories to highlight the Church's power. Author and photographer Paul Koudounaris has spent years researching and documenting these little-known historic treasures, which he detailed in his book Heavenly Bodies: Cult Treasures & Spectacular Saints from the Catacombs. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the skeletons (and human remains generally) were an important part of people's spiritual lives; why nuns were responsible for decorating the jeweled skeletons; and why the Catholic Church's efforts to honor martyrs didn't exactly go as it intended. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Paul Koudounaris, who's an art historian, photographer and author whose publications in the field of charnel houses and ossuary research have made him a well-known figure in these areas. Today, he'll tell us about his fascinating work and what it has to do with jewelry. We'll hear about his unusual jewelry journey today. Paul, welcome to the podcast. Paul: Hi. I'm delighted to be here, and I'm delighted to talk about this topic from the perspective of jewelry. Sharon: I was so interested to hear it. Tell us about your journey. Did you get into this field because of your doctoral studies in art? How did you get into it? I don't know what charnel house means, and I didn't want to look it up until I heard your definition. Paul: Well, a charnel house is just a room full of bones. It's from an old Latin word, “caro,” that meant flesh. It's a flesh room, or it was literally a bone room. When they'd run out of room in cemeteries, they would put the bones and skulls in a separate room. They didn't want to discard the bones of their relatives, but they needed room to bury more people. I started out studying that. Of course, that has nothing to do with jewelry, at least not at first, but it does have something to do with a PhD in history.  When I finished the PhD, everyone likes to carve their own niche in life, and I was always interested in the macabre stuff. I was very familiar with the famous charnel houses, giant bone rooms, such as the Paris catacombs, which most people know about as big tourist attractions. As I traveled around Europe and looked in depth, I started to realize how many of these places there were that nobody knew about; that weren't famous but were spectacular. I started to realize how these places, these great bone rooms that were constructed in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries, had once been a very important part of people's spiritual lives. We had pushed them into the cracks because we are so uncomfortable with the topic of death, and because the churches that administered them were oftentimes embarrassed to own these rooms full of bones because it just doesn't play well in the modern world. So, I got started looking at those bone rooms. I wrote called a book called The Empire of Death that was designed to bring their meaning back into play for a modern audience. Sharon: People must flock around you at cocktail parties. I'm thinking about them being so interested in what you have to say about this. Tell us about how the jewels come into play here. Paul: I was finishing my book called Pyre of Death. It was literally about the bone rooms and the skeletons, the meaning of their décor and their place in people's spiritual lives. When I was finishing that book, I found a topic that was even more spectacular, and it had me hooked. Sometimes in Italy, they would take me into these old bone rooms. A lot of times, they were closed off from the public, so I needed permission from the church. Before I would get into the bone rooms, sometimes I would find these old skeletons that had been put into storage that were completely covered in jewels, and this is where the jewelry angle comes in. They were never part of the bone rooms per se; they were the relics of saints, these whole-body skeletons completely covered over in jewels. I started getting into that, understanding what that was. We can talk about it because it has a very profound meaning in terms of religion.  By the time I finished the first book, as it was coming out, I was in London at my publisher's office. I had taken a picture of some of these skeletons, and I had put them on the commissioning editor's desk. I pushed him the photos and said, “Here's the next book,” and he looked at the photos and was like, “Yeah, O.K., that's the next book. We'll draw up a contract. What the hell is this?” It's hard for your listeners to understand what I'm talking about. They might Google it. If they Google my name, Koudounaris— Sharon: And we will have links to everything and photos on the website when we post this. Paul: The book is called Heavenly Bodies. If they Google my name and the book, they would see pictures of what I'm talking about. They truly are spectacular. We're talking about entire human skeletons, head to toe, completely covered in jewels. It was something utterly spectacular that has apparently been blotted out, pushed aside because of our own anxiety dealing with this kind of material in the modern age. That's how the jewelry angle comes in. Sharon: How did they decide which skeletons were going to be covered in jewelry? Paul: The skeletons that were jeweled had nothing to do with the charnel houses themselves. The bone rooms were filled with people from the cemetery. The skeletons were something different. To understand why these were important, I need to talk a little bit about the historical background. I know since this is a jewelry show, people have different levels of awareness of religious history, so pardon me if some of this is a little rudimentary, but it's very important in understanding this topic.  I think we all know about the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther, in the 16th century, takes the first breakaway group from the Catholic Church and other groups start to leave. The Catholics, who thought they were inviolable and didn't think they could really be hurt by these Protestant break-away groups, by the time they take this seriously, they've lost about half of Europe and they have to respond. They have to produce something to bring people back in their church. The Protestant groups all had different viewpoints, but one thing the Protestants universally disliked was the Catholic practice of relics, relics being those little bits of bone or a lock of hair or some piece of a holy person that would be on display in a church. “Look, we have St. Peter's fingernail.” The Protestants didn't like that kind of stuff. First of all, they thought it was cultish or death-y. More importantly, they thought it was leading people into idolatry, because maybe someone's praying to a fingerbone rather than praying to God. So, the Protestants go around and destroy the relics. When the Catholics decided to rebuild their church and try to bring people back in, they said, “Well, we need new relics, and they need to be spectacular. We need to show them.” The Catholics understood propaganda, and they understood that people respond to visual symbols more than they respond to abstract ideas. So, they said, “O.K., we're going to rebuild the churches. We are going to bring in new relics, but relics that are so powerful, like nobody has ever seen before, that are really going to attract people.” And so they needed new relics. Around this time, they rediscovered the catacombs of Rome, which were early Christian burial sites. They would send people down there to look for early Christian martyrs. Because they gave their lives for God, to the church, early Christian martyrs have a status about equivalent to a saint. They would take these skeletons of these early Christian martyrs from Rome and send them to northern Europe to the battleground areas where they thought they could win people back from the Protestants. Mostly that was in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Then they would cover them over completely in jewels, and they would put them on display in these newly re-founded churches as a citadel for people to say, “Look, this is the glory. This glory you see in earthly terms, a skeleton covered over in jewels, this is a reflection of the heavenly glory, the heavenly Jerusalem, that God promises to people who are true to the faith, who will fight for the faith, who fight to reestablish the truth faith, the Catholic Church, in the face of its adversaries, much like these martyred people once fought to found the faith against heathens and pagans of the world.” Sharon: When they went back to find these early martyrs, did they have an X on them? How did they know? They just said, “This was a martyr”? Paul: That's the big problem. The Roman catacombs are famous for Christian burials, but other Romans were buried there too. You could do either of them; you could cremate or you could bury, your choice, and the Jews put their people in the catacombs, too. So, how do you go down into these 1,400, 1,500-year-old tunnels and figure out who in there is a Christian versus a Roman or a Jew, and who has actually been martyred? Of course, it's very difficult.  Again, as I said, the Catholics really understood propaganda. These people they were sending north, were they really Christian martyrs? They didn't intend it as a total fraud. They looked for certain symbols. If there was a letter M on a gravestone, they thought, “O.K., well, if there's a letter M, it might mean martyr.” Then again, the gravestones were often broken, so they might see an M, but it might have been part of a larger word. Maybe it was the word Mars; maybe it was someone who had dedicated their lives in the service of the god Mars. You really didn't know, so a lot of it was guesswork.  One of the things the Christians looked for were little vials that had been filled with blood. If there was a vial near the grave that had been filled with blood—or then, it had turned to a brown or a reddish dust—they decided, “That must be a martyr because there's a little vial that had been filled with blood. It must be that person's blood that was spilled at his martyrdom. This is definitely a martyr; take him out and send him north.” What they didn't know is the Romans also had a funerary practice that is basically the backstory for us putting flowers on a grave. The Romans would sometimes put vials of perfume near a grave, and perfume over time can also turn into this brownish power.  So, you're asking how they knew. They really didn't. A lot these people who were reborn as Christian saints may have been Roman fisherman, for all we know, and people would have been primed to venerate a fisherman. It's a wild story historically. They would pull these skeletons out and rebaptize them. They'd call it batizati because they didn't necessarily know who they were. The catacombs had been ransacked and they were not in good condition, so they'd pull these skeletons out and have a baptism. They'd rebaptize them and give them a name because they didn't know who they were. A lot of these skeletons would have names like Felix. Tons of skeletons who were named Felix who were sent forth from these catacombs. Why Felix? Names like Felix or Clemente, names like that. Why? Because they sound like proper names, but they're also the names of virtues. Felix is the base word for felicity meaning happiness. When they call a guy Felix and send him out, they're saying, “We're not really saying he's a saint by the name of Felix or a martyr by the name of Felix; we're saying he is the epitome of Christian happiness because he died for God.” Now, as I said, this was a propaganda war that these jeweled skeletons were involved in, so when they get to Germany, people didn't question, “Yeah, we have St. Felix here.” One of the most common skeletons to be sent out of the catacombs was St. Valentine. Why St. Valentine? The real St. Valentine has always been interred in Italy, but to make sure they were well received—because, again, this was propaganda to re-found the church. There is no Google to stop people from saying, “Oh, St. Valentine has just arrived in our town. Blessed be, we are graced by the God of love.” There's no Google to say, “Wait a minute, this is horrible. Valentine's interred in Italy.” They're just going to accept it for what it is. You asked a good question: how did they know? They really didn't, but these were tools to re-found a church. They were really jewels of war. These jeweled skeletons were tools of war in the battle against Protestantism.  Sharon: You said you stumbled on this, but how come people didn't know these were here? Paul: They did a little bit. It would be unfair to say no one knew. They were still around. I think most of them—it's another question you can asked: what happened to the bulk of them? A lot of them were destroyed, and a lot of them were destroyed for certain reasons. When they fell out of favor, people would rob the jewels from them and throw the skeletons away. I would say most of them, maybe two-thirds of them, have been destroyed, but a lot of them were still around; they were just only known by theologians or people who were really plugged into Catholic history in those places. When I was working in Germany photographing these, I was staying at a friend's house in Stuttgart. Every day I would come back to her house, and she would sit me down at the table and say, “O.K., show me what other crazy things you found in my country that we don't know about.” The bulk of Germans didn't even know these skeletons were there, even though they had been a big part of spiritual life.  There were several problems with those skeletons. First of all, I've already told you that a lot of them couldn't be brought. When the Enlightenment came, they decided, “We need to get a lot of the superstition out of religion.” There were actual doctrines passed in Sumer that said, “O.K., we can't have relics on display without a proven provenance, because we don't want people praying in front of a Roman fisherman's bone.” A lot of them were put into storage for that reason. A lot of them were simply removed by the churches and taken away because they didn't want the modern church to be associated with a skeleton covered in jewels. It's not a good look for the modern world. We have an incredible anxiety over death, plus the church gets accused of being a death cult, and what better proof would you have of a death cult than walking into a church and seeing a jeweled skeleton?  A lot of them got pushed away in one very strange incident. There were some skeletons they felt bad about removing because it was such an important part of local history. They said, “Well, we want him out of our church. We don't want this look anymore. We don't want a jeweled skeleton in our church, but we don't want to throw him away because he's a part of local history and local lore.” So, they cut a hole in the wall. They shoved it in the wall and plastered the wall over, so he's still technically in the church; he's just literally inside the wall trapped in plaster. So, they got rid of them.  It's funny; times change, tastes change. For me, in writing this book, of course I had to get into the theological history, but it was more of an appreciation or reinterpreting them and saying, “O.K., these may have been failed religious items, and they may not have been the skeletons of the people they thought. They may not have been the Christian martyrs, but we can still appreciate them in the modern world as incredible works of art, the finest works of art in human bone that have ever been seen, and incredible works of jeweler's art to cover them like that and make them so splendid. Let's appreciate them in those respects.” A lot of people do love the photos, not for the death aspect or the theological aspect, but for the artistic aspect.  Times do change. There's one in a church in Switzerland. There was a variance to bejeweling them. Sometimes they would put them in suits of armor. If they thought it had been a military martyr, they'd put them in a suit of armor. This one has always been on display and they've never removed it. It's still there in the modern church. I talked to the priest about it at the church in Switzerland; its name is St. Croesus. I was like, “Do you ever get any guff at the church for having this skeleton in armor there?” He was like, “It actually does us some good because the heavy metal kids think it's really cool to come to church because there's a skeleton in armor.” Times have changed. Sharon: That's really interesting. When you look at the photos in your book, Heavenly Bodies, it's just amazing the jewels and how they decorated them. Talk about works of jewelers' art, or any kind of art.   Paul: I think one very important aspect of this is the people who did the work. That is another forgotten chapter in history along with the skeletons. People are often surprised when I tell them these skeletons were mostly decorated by nuns. They weren't decorated by professional jewelers, and they weren't decorated by big-name artists. They were decorated by teams of nuns. People are sometimes surprised when I say that, but we have to understand life in a convent at that time. Remember, a convent had to have an economy. It had to support itself, and all the money didn't necessarily from donations. Nuns were very skilled in certain trades, what were then sometimes called women's arts. They didn't get the same respect as sculpture and painting, the kind of arts that have been traditionally patriarchal, but these nuns were skilled in what were called women's arts, things like textile making, jewelry work, beadwork, wirework.  Some of these nuns were probably the Michelangelo or Leonardo of working with jewelry at time; it's just that we don't know them because our history has always been a patriarchal view. Their names are signed to these skeletons, and they do incredible work. They would send skeletons undecorated up to Europe. The church would get them, and they would turn them over to teams of local nuns. The nuns might take years decorating them, a very costly process, a very time-consuming process, but nuns have the right religious temperament to deal with such an object, They can do it, they have a love for it, and very importantly, nuns had the technical and artistic skill to do this kind of jewelry work, to do this kind of textural work and to do it beautifully. That's another really important of the story. It shows the incredible, high level of skill of these female artists that had been living in these convents to do this kind of work.  Sharon: Also too, I assume that one would think they're trustworthy and not be afraid that the jewels were going to disappear. Paul: Oh, sure! Like I said, the nuns had the perfect temperament to deal with the sacred object, and the nuns obviously were not going to steal anything. Sharon: Why were these jeweled skeletons in on display? Did people parade past them in the church? How did that work? Well, I guess they were underneath in the charnel house. Paul: They were on display in the church. They were never stored in the charnel houses. That only came later when they removed them. They would set them into altars in big glass cases. It's the reason that so many of them are posed. A lot of them are posed in a resting pose, full body laid out, almost like they're waking from a sleep. The reason for that is the best place to put them was in the predella of an altar, right underneath the altar table. Of course, that's a long, thin area. They would usually put them in there, so that explains why so many of them are in that resting pose.  People would see them every time they walked into the church, but you asked about parades. When they were drilling them into the panel, the technical term for moving a relic is a translation. When they would translate the relics into town and bring them in the church, it was a religious holiday for the town. They would parade them in front of the entire town. Everybody would come out to meet their new patron saint. It was a very big event. Canons would shoot off, and there would be a military parade and an escort for them, and they'd set them into the church with much hoopla. These were very revered objects at the time, and many of the local churches would have special feast days in appreciation of the new saint that had come to them, this new, jeweled skeleton. For instance, in one instance in Germany, a town did have a skeleton they called St. Valentine, so of course they all took him to be the god of love. So, every year on Valentine's Feast Day, myriad couples and boyfriends and girlfriends would come and march and stand in front of this skeleton who, like I said, for all we know, might have been a Roman fisherman. But they'd stand in front of the skeleton they were calling St. Valentine, and they would renew their vows and renew their love for one another in front of the skeleton. The town had even commissioned an orchestral piece that would be played every year when people would stand in front of the skeleton and speak their vows. So yes, they were very much on public display and they were very much a big deal.  

Vicar Andrew Asp

We welcome guest preacher Rev. Paul Oh from Kingsway Evangelical Church! -- Date: Sunday 25th April 2021 Sermon Title: "Rahab the Prostitute" Bible Passage: Joshua 2:1-24 Preacher: Rev. Paul Oh -- ChEMistry is the English congregation of Sydney Cheil Uniting Church. We'd love to hear from you! Get in touch: admin.chemistry@gmail.com

Ecommerce has come a long way from its early days as a separate part of the company that you set up and just hope to see returns on. Now, ecommerce is pivotal for just about every organization — but there is one faction of businesses that still lags behind. There are $17 trillion dollars worth of B2B payments made every year. Yes, trillion with a T. And half of those payments are still being made manually. Clearly, there is a massive shift that still needs to happen in the B2B space, and Deloitte Digital is helping make those digital transformations a reality.Paul do Forno is the Managing Director at Deloitte Digital, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he helped us understand the struggles B2B brands are facing and how moving them into the digital space could spell a massive change in the ecommerce industry. Paul also dives into some of the major trends he’s keeping an eye on in the ecommerce world, including how ecommerce continues to scale around the globe, most notably in Latin America. Plus, he shares some tips for businesses who are overwhelmed by the amount of channels and platforms they suddenly have to play in. Spoiler: he says do less. Tune in to hear more!Main Takeaways:Massive Call And Response: Bigger brands are struggling to stay connected to their consumers in a way that scales. Today, customers are looking to have a more authentic relationship and connection with the brands they engage with and support. For enterprises, connecting one-to-one is nearly impossible, so they are investing in tools like A.I. and conversational platforms to keep up with this newer generation of customers who crave connection.Dinosaurs Still Exist: So much B2B activity is still done manually, which means that there are trillions of dollars of transactions that could be moving online if/when B2B companies finally shift their activities to the digital space. The problem is that many B2B companies are miles behind their B2C peers in terms of optimizing the digital space for their many personas. It will take a lot of tools and transformation to bring those traditional B2B companies into 2021, but it will be necessary because the next generation is not interested in manually doing business and would much rather work with companies that have effective digital tools.Do Less: Brands can get caught up in the hype and the attempts to keep up with the Joneses. Instead, they should focus on being great at one platform or marketing activity. Plus, it’s critical to never forget the basics — like making sure your email list is generating the leads and engagement it should be to power your business.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Paul de Forno, the managing direction at Deloitte Digital. Paul, welcome.Paul:Thanks. Excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you. I was looking through your background and I saw you were on a list of the hundred most influential people in ecommerce and I was like, we need him. We need Paul. Why do you think you got on that list?Paul:I think first of all, in some ways I'm the old guy who's been around carrying the ecommerce flag for a long time, so I've been doing ecommerce for 20 years. When you've been around that long, 20 years ago it was, trust me, ecommerce is going to be big, honest. Most of the big companies just looked at me and said, "Yeah, it's just a tiny percentage. We don't have the time to focus on it." I've gone through the whole lifecycle from, "Yeah, I don't think ecommerce is going to be big," to, "Oh my god. What are we going to do? Everything is ecommerce."Stephanie:Yep, what did your journey look like? What have you worked on over the years, and then what does your role at Deloitte Digital look like now?Paul:Yeah, I've had some pretty interesting projects all along. We help customers at Deloitte, we're one of the largest implementers and SIs all the way from strategy, studio design, implementation, and run ecommerce and digital platforms. Kind of soup to nuts, end to end for some of the largest Internet retailers both B2C and B2B. My background, I've worked with some of the largest retailers and brands in the world, getting them online, selling, and also supply chain and connecting up all of those things.Paul:I've had the great experience of 20 years ago working with some of the earliest big retail brands of them ... It's kind of funny, when they first started, they treated ecommerce like a store because at the size that they were, on some of them, they were like ... And literally, they would call it store number 1099 and that's the way they treated it almost like a completely separate channel over the to the side. Yeah, let's put some money over there and grow and then see what happens. That from over time, then it became more of a challenge of omnichannel.Paul:How do we make sure that the channels aren't fighting against each other because we dealt with some retailers that literally would ... They wouldn't want returns to come in to the store because those sales and we're not getting them credit, right? That came back and if they exchanged for something else, and so they would be internal fighting because the bonuses of the executives weren't aligned. We've gone kind of like it's off to the side, it's big enough to challenge, to now it's almost the reverse. Retail wants to get more love from the ecommerce side.Stephanie:Yeah, it's a funny and an interesting flip that we see. We've had some guests on the show who said the same thing, like when I started out in ecommerce, they had us in a different building, like on the campus that they were at, they're like, that's the ecommerce team, they're doing their own thing. We've had a couple people say how siloed they were and now, like you said, interesting how retail is like, come on, come give us a little love now.Paul:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:When you're looking through all these trends that are happening right now, I know that back in the day you were going to a lot of conferences, you were flying all over the world probably, and now I see and follow you on Clubhouse. Tell me a bit about how you're staying on top of the trends and what kind of things are you discussing now on Clubhouse or wherever else you're doing these virtual events?Paul:Yeah, I'll maybe separate ... Definitely right now as we're speaking it's almost a year to the day that I haven't been on a plane. In the last 20 years, over a 100,000 to 150,000 miles a year that I've been flying around.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Paul:One, my wife has gotten to know me.Stephanie:Hi, Paul, nice to meet you.Paul:But, it's given me a lot of opportunity to connect digitally and do more research and some of the new tools, like you talked about, Clubhouse, and I'll come back to that. I think what this has just done is accelerated ecommerce and how important that is and commerce everywhere and brought it forward, and there's a lot of interesting trends that have popped out. Some of the things that may not be as evident, so in the past year, one of the biggest growth areas just for convenience has been around the growth of commerce around groceries, because we had to, right? You got a lot of the biggest stores growing and anywhere from 70% to over a 100%, and so a lot of the innovation has happened in groceries because it needed to, right? The companies that invested more have done well.Paul:For example, if you look at how Target has done, right? They were able to stay open because they had groceries and so they actually grew and were more profitable and a lot of that why they grew was their investments in shipped, a number of different way they pick from their stores, and so it's amazing that not only did they grow that much but their profitability on the ecommerce channel went up which is almost unheard of in a time like this. They executed unbelievably well.Paul:Then on the other side, another interesting related to the grocery which kind of because it forced people to try something new, the largest growing segment on online grocery was actually baby boomers, and it's because they never were forced to do it. They were always used to going to the store, and so we really see that as a watershed moment of hey, to get over the hump, hey, this isn't as bad. Then as soon as you try something and you do it a couple times, it's going to change how people behave.Paul:we expect the adoption rate going forward for boomers, for example, and older will continue. It won't necessarily be at the same rate, but is an important threshold that they'll continue to embrace it.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right, so when thinking about these new consumers who are online who weren't thinking this way before, how are you advising brands to communicate and talk and do things differently? Because it is such a different generation coming online. We've had quite a few people mention you have to think very differently when it comes to customer service or even the whole unboxing experience. People want different things. What are you seeing among your biggest brands right now around what's working to connect with this brand new group of users who are not online before?Paul:Yeah, there's a whole bunch of battling trends that are in here. In fact, on Clubhouse we had a discussion around the eco considerations of delivery, and that got into we brought in a packaging expert and one of the interesting thing that we talked about is that, hey, everybody has all these cardboard boxes, right? People would love to find out opportunities to minimize what kind of packaging and we all probably had the experience of getting a huge package and having one little item in it. I think the whole consideration around eco and environmental is something that I just saw some research, that's at the top of the list of considerations.Paul:Things such as that and packaging and reducing it is a factor of when you're designing for stuff. Looking for opportunities that you can batch up or minimizing the packaging or making it recyclable and also balancing having a great opening unboxing experience, and so you have to balance those things, right? The environmental side and also the brand side, which is hey, the expectations of brands such as Apple put on, on this hey, you want this great experience in opening. There's a lot of non ... Things that you didn't have to worry about even 10 years ago because if you look at some of the studies of what gen Z and beyond are looking for, those considerations are much higher up than they were for other generations.Stephanie:It definitely seems like it can set up some of the newer based for failure though because it seems like you always have to stay ahead and be trying something new where it could kind of take you off your path of building a great product and a great company when you get too focused on some of that stuff. How do you think about the trade-off to stay focused but then also stay on top of consumer expectations that seem to have very rapidly changed in the last year where I wasn't really hearing a lot of consumers talking about eco-friendly packaging and really caring about that, and now it seems like that's a huge thing that we're hearing time and time again about this is a new expectation that you have to keep up with now.Paul:I think a little bit about it is around just the how do you be authentic brand? In many ways, some of the trends that we've been seeing is around less production, right? Some of the advertisement or even things that are helping to actually convert much higher are actually user-generated content that people in authentic ... You want to see how real people act, real people and real products, as opposed to a runway model or a runway person showing off this great ... Because of that, first thing we would say is try and be authentic to your brand and especially right now the over-production is actually a hindrance on many brands.Stephanie:For some of the larger brands you work with, I mean, I could see that being hard for them to want to keep up with the times but then also staying authentic to your brand. Like you said, I know it has gotten some companies in trouble for trying to do the cool thing, keep up with whatever that trend is, try and jump on something. When these big brands are coming to you, what are they struggling with right now and how are you working with them around this new UGC kind of content that a lot of these smaller D2C companies are like, yeah, of course, that's what we're going to do, but when it's a large company, they're like, I don't even know how to do that and how do you flag it and how do you think about the content coming in. Can I even trust it? How are you guys guiding them down that path?Paul:I think that for many larger companies in many ways it's kind of a how do you manage dealing with this on scale? Because in some of the smaller brands, dealing with a few interactions, it's somewhat easier, but when you have thousands and thousands of followers, how do you manage that on scale? What they mostly get concerned of, they want to be closer to the consumer and listen to them and interact, but being able to scale that in both a combination of AI related tools and responses, but also people responses that can do it in scale that are tailored to the brand voice, that's the challenge. We kind of work through different strategies to help them get through that.Stephanie:What are some other things that these brands are struggling with? What are you hearing right now that they're trying to work with you on?Paul:Yeah, and we work with brands both from B2C to B2B, and so I'll actually give two examples just to get a broad spectrum. On the B2C side, I think the ... And depending on the different segment. The B2C side on CPG we're seeing massive spikes because of all the purchases that we've seen especially going through stores, and that's a lot of the food, CPGs are just spiking. They're trying to figure out, okay, great. This is a great opportunity to scale. How do we now embrace and engage and maybe put out some direct to consumer feelers to learn?Paul:In many ways, a lot of the CPGs are going way more direct. Some of the largest scale CPG companies are doing record numbers of doing ecommerce, but they also partner with massive retail chains. They're trying to balance of not stepping on their channel conflicts, and so many are using ecommerce as a mechanism to explore, do special arrangements, special formulations, and learn and get data. As we see, for example, in that area is just there's been so much innovation going on, they're trying to keep up to the pace. They struggle with, well, what do I do first? How do I prioritize on some of these? Most of it is around helping to prioritize and segment some of the ideas to get them into marketplace faster.Stephanie:Trying to keep up with what's happening really quickly, I've seen a lot of them acquiring these smaller D2C companies and kind of putting them in a mini innovation hub where it's like we don't want to disrupt your process but we want to learn from you. Do you see that as a successful strategy for some of these more legacy brands to be able to learn while also keeping their brand identity or is that not really working?Paul:Yeah, I've seen some awesome acquisitions and unbelievable great talent that some of the large ... Just to stick to the CPG space, that's been probably the most aggressive of picking up new brands and learning, right? I think it's actually a brilliant ... That's why some of the premiums are getting paid. It's not just necessarily for the product and what margins, it's also from the know-how, because what ends up happening if you look, and this is something that that's probably the area that Club CPG on Clubhouse is probably one of the largest clubs and they have an amazing talent there, and there's been a number of acquisitions and they're on there talking about their story.Paul:What's really good about doing some of those acquisitions is these people have been very close to the customer, right? They've really interacted, as opposed to you're getting perhaps a new executive who's rotated around, right? These people understand the customer and had that relationship, had to build up the D2C. They really know all the different channels. They're able to provide that voice to the customer and how to go direct so much more. I've seen it be really successful and understand especially some of the early purchases that they've made. It's actually worked out really well, more from the people experience than even the product.Stephanie:It does seem like you can lose sight of that the larger you get, especially the more data you're getting. It's hard to get as informed and be able to actually find trends or themes. When you're working with a lot of these companies, what is your measurement of success when you're like, okay, we are going to transform this company. We're going to bring you guys to 2021 and what's relevant now. How do you look back and see if a digital transformation was successful?Paul:First of all, it's important that we judge success by the way companies measure their success. When we work with different companies, we try and understand what are their outcomes of success and their success can be ... The first thing you think, how much revenue did you grow? But some might not be. If it's a new brand and they want to get out there and they're trying to change their positioning, their goal might be a number of stories that got out, building brand awareness, changing the perspective, and so we always start with making sure that we understand what are their key outcomes and then provide some guidance on how do you get to those key goals.Paul:Looking at from a digital perspective, kind of like as I was saying before, it's also important to have an understanding of the voice of the customer and the sentiment. It's one thing to say what people might ... When you interview them. It's almost more important to see what they actually do, right? And using different tracking NPS scores, using different ... Looking at the data of actual purchase stories and mapping it onto example profiles. That then provides much more of a richer ... Even from compared to people say what they do is different than what they actually do and looking for actual intent in what they've done, and so making sure we're getting the right data is really important as well.Stephanie:Even if they have a lot of different outcomes, it seems like the solutions that you could bring to them could be kind of similar though. From what I've heard, there's a lot of decentralized processes going on, so you need to figure out a way to pull them all in and reduce your crazy marketing tech stack. Have you seen that on your side too that people might have very different outcomes but right now a lot of people have similar solutions or the solutions that you're presenting to them are kind of the same things?Paul:Yeah, in many ways some of our ... What we do to help customers in some ways is to help ... There's probably so many voices in the room and so many stakeholders is how do we help them bring them together and help to prioritize and to facilitate that conversation? Because that's the real hard part when you're dealing ... If you just have your own one product and your own single [sheet] you can make a decision and go.Paul:When you have hundreds of product lines and executives around the world and how do you facilitate the discussion, that's really what we help to do. Be it similar strategy to other companies or not, you need to help bring the internal alignment, and that's sometimes the hardest part because once you get to execute, many companies can do that. The harder part is how do you get agreement and prioritization with the different stakeholders.Stephanie:What kind of advice do you give for anyone who's struggling with that right now? What do you guys do to gain that alignment and have a go forward plan?Paul:Number one thing is start small and try something. You could spend forever talking about it and don't be afraid to fail. Get something in the market. We try and do agile sprints, and so from a development perspective we've been doing agile for a long time but we're also pushing into doing agile marketing so that we get into the same kind of feeding into that, so that okay, let's get something out there, let's try it, learn, and then from there go through the experiment, prove it, or make the changes and then scale, and keep that on an ongoing basis and trying to institutionalize that that it's an ongoing, you need to keep ...Paul:That's the business and how do you keep rolling that, because before when ecommerce was quote unquote more of a side business, it was more of a set it and forget it. Well, let's set it up. We'll set up the implementation, then we'll look at it, we'll make some changes every once in a while where now your core commerce business is your lifeline and some businesses it's over getting to 50, 60% of your overall business. You need to continue to change the priorities and especially as all of the changes that have come down the line from Facebook, from Google, is changing your whole marketing strategies.Stephanie:What about from a B2B perspective? I know earlier you said, okay, we got these two different viewpoints. What do you see in the B2B world? Which sometimes gets forgotten. We don't have many B2B people on the podcast very often and it'd be interesting to hear what does that side of the world look like.Paul:I've been focused more on that in the last year or two because it's such a big growing area. Just to lay the land, to understand how big B2B is, from a B2B perspective, just in the U.S. there's $17 trillion dollars of B2B payments done.Stephanie:Wow.Paul:That's just in the U.S. Right now-Stephanie:That's massive.Paul:It's completely massive and half of that is done manually. Meaning, if somebody writes a check, they send the check off, it's wired. It's not done digitally, and so when we talk about B2B commerce, again, people right away think B2C, it's just about the order, but actually when we talk about ... Or, the other myth or misconception that frustrates B2B people is, well, if just make it a cooler screen and easier to use on the web, then you'll be better, right? Then those are the myths and putting lipstick on problems.Paul:if you actually look into what the B2B challenges are, number one, many B2B purchases are very complex and there's many personas. It's not like, hey, I like this shirt, got it, they converted well, I've optimized, I buy it. Some of these deals are million dollars, half a million, and you need to go to procurement, you've got the business, you've got the people using it. It has to go through an RFP process, you have to buy versus ... Right? It's so much more complex on the number of personas, that's an important thing. There's no quick, easy, CX solution. Not to say that CX isn't important, but it's not like B2B. The first thing, if you start from that premise, that helps.Paul:Then the bigger pieces is traditionally how B2B sold was handshake over lunch, right? Traditionally, middle age guys shaking hands and "Hey, let's do this deal. There we go," and the last thing I want to do is look at the damn website, right? Well, obviously we know that's all changing and last year was the big thing in the workforce, millennials are now the largest part of the workforce. Guess what? Many of those, it's not all men. They're retiring at a very fast rate. Your expectation of your sales people are hey, where are my digital tools? When you talk about B2B commerce, it's about what are all the digital ways to interact, to be easier to do business with as you sell?Paul:In fact, what ends up happening is the top three things that people like for B2B commerce is order status, product information, and just doing a quick re-order. When you look at that, it's more about, hey, how do I make my life easier interacting with my customers? That's just important to understand the difference between B2C and traditionally on B2B side.Stephanie:What kind of opportunities do you see in the B2B world then? Do you see any new innovations coming about? Obviously having a platform that can meet the needs of the customers and to me it seems like it has to be personalized depending on what the business is and how your customers order, but what do you see right now that could be coming in the next couple years to help B2B?Paul:Well, kind of seeing where B2B is in their lifecycle, and so in many retailers, they're now onto their third iteration of a platform from B2C, and for most B2B, they're on maybe their first or they haven't really, right? Many of the B2B clients we're dealing with, oh, we put something up in 2004 and we've just been living with it and we still have to use IE to access it, and so we're dealing with web 1.0. They can't get it on their phone, and so a lot of it is just we need to make it easier for them and looking for ways to make the sales person's life easier.Paul:In the analogy of how B2C commerce is trying to be omnichannel, on the B2B side, it's helping your sales person and CRM. The lines between CRM and B2B commerce have blended together and it's really a tool to help the next generation business person to, hey, all my follow-ups, my data, you might get leads. Did you know your customers are looking at your products? You'll get that lead information, and so that you can follow-up with them or hey, have you deferred ... How many times has the business guy gotten a call? Hey, where's my order? I haven't got it.Paul:They end up spending half their time, and so the other big learning that we've got because it involves sales people so much is that you have to include them early and often during the process. For example, we had this happen one time. We had a customer come to us and say, "Man, we just spent all this money on this great new ecommerce platform for B2B, and we're just not getting the adoption." A couple lessons learned and they asked us to come in and do an assessment. We went in, we started talking to the customers and the customer said ... We ended up hearing this three different ways.Paul:The customer is like, "Oh, man. I love Joe. He's my best salesman, but he told me that if I put my sale through the B2B commerce, he's not going to get a bonus so I just called him to make sure he got his bonus." It's like, oh my god, of course you need to get the sales persons incentives align such that they don't get penalized for using the website, and that was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.Paul:Also, you want the sales people to be ... You want them to evangelize and get them to embrace leveraging it. That's such a key ... That change management in B2B and getting your sales people involved is super key for success.Stephanie:Yeah, which seems like it's a big training aspect to it too, make sure that they fully understand it to where then they can essentially sell the customers on using it and can act as customer service as well, because I'm sure their customers can be like, "I don't know how to order it on here," and if the sales person is like, "I don't know either," that's a big red flag. Are there any other hiccups like that that you've seen either in B2B or B2C where companies are like, oh, this isn't working. This new platform that we're using isn't working and you're like, well, let's talk a little bit about how you guys even thought about implementing it and you left out a big piece like this. Any other stories around that?Paul:Yeah, and number one it's always about ... It's so important getting the voice of the customer and getting representative people early on to provide input and feedback, because what ends up happening is if you don't listen to ... And we've had examples of rolling out systems trying to solve for what we thought was the problem but it wasn't really the problem. The way you bundled orders or the way products were bundled and you prioritized that and you didn't get the adoption, when actually they're focused on another set of problems or departments. That whole piece about getting user input early and often is so critical. The number one thing as you roll that out, you need the voice of the customer.Stephanie:In times like this that are changing so quickly, how do you think about separating the signal from the noise? I can see just so many companies try to keep up with other smaller brands and there's so many new things to try right now. It seems like it's hard to know what's actually going to be a lasting trend where you actually should put that as part of your processes or your platform. There's just so many tools and plugins and things. How do you all think about separating the two and being like, this one's a longer term trend and this is just something short that we see dying off in a year or two?Paul:Yeah, a couple of things that we do and obviously there's things that you want to lay out and over long-term and shorter term, but number one, look for ways ... First of all, understand what your brand promise is. Depending on your brand promise, you might prioritize things different, right? If you're a luxury item versus if you're an item at the dollar store. You have different brand promises and you want to be consistent to your brand promise, and so that's the first thing.Paul:The second thing as far as in general on commerce is continuously look for friction points. Do your tests with your customers and see what are things that are causing them to stop. As you go through all the different steps of the purchasing journey, if you're seeing friction points, how can you reduce that friction? Meaning, hey, this page seems really slow. I don't know why. Let's reduce that. Hey, this content is not connecting well. How can we use other ... For example, and I mentioned it before, hey, getting authentic content of the real users' pictures. That will help people convert higher.Paul:It's an ongoing iterative, so I think what you have is this ... And you're always plotting this, like how can you reduce friction and bang for the buck in a short-term that you can do versus a longer term investment that might then pay back, because it's easy to be like, okay great, we need a 3D VR AR strategy. We're like, well, how is that going to help your $10 item? Obviously that's an extreme example, but if you have a brand promise and you look for ways to reduce the friction to make your life easier, and similarly on the B2B side, that's why I always stress when I define B2B commerce, I like to say it's not about the purchase. It's about making your business easier to do business with, reduce the friction.Stephanie:I love that. What kind of longer term investments are you seeing being made right now that they might not see a payoff for a couple years? Because I know that Deloitte and I think Salesforce partnered on coming up with scenarios for the next three to five years, and so it'd be interesting to hear what you're seeing being implemented based on maybe the scenarios that these companies so all you get is put out there, which ranged to me from happy to very sad scenarios. I'm like, I guess it just depends how you're feeling that day which one you go with. I went with the happy ones.Paul:Especially for companies such as CPG that aren't used to having direct relationship with their customer, for example, big investments that take a while to really understand is the data, right? Getting real data direct from your customers that you then can build on. Those are things that it's not like, okay, a couple weeks, a couple months and you got it. It's something that over time you build up and you start to learn from, and so that's probably one of the biggest areas of especially getting your first party data, and especially since as you might have heard here recently, Facebook is reducing some of the data that they're sharing and how you're able to market and so is Google. Building up your first party data as a brand or building up your email list is so critical, and the benefits that you'll build definitely increase over time.Stephanie:It seems like it's an easy thing to say, yeah, obviously build up on that one-on-one connection with your customers, build up your email list, but it also seems like it's going to be very competitive because every brand is trying to do that now. It seems like every commerce company is turning to a media company that are all trying to have their blogs and newsletters and be on Tik Tok and Clubhouse and everywhere. How do you think brands can compete and build up content that actually pulls people into their community so they can have access to that first party data?Paul:Yeah, so I think the tactics on some of those platforms on core data and getting some of that primary, that's onto ... I think once you get into content and being outward brand, outward bound, I think the focus is and kind of the things that we've talked to our clients about is try and be good on one platform first. It's easy to be like, oh my god, we're so behind. We got to have a Tik Tok. We got to have Facebook, we have to have all the platforms all at once. We kind of guide them on, okay, start with one that's as close to your authentic brand as you can find, and then try and build it and iterate on it and master one before you really try and go after another because, again, there's limited resources and limited people. Trying to spread across all is a lot worse than trying to be good at least on one.Stephanie:Where do you normally find yourself suggesting brands start out at? It seems like Instagram is always a good bet for any company that has product pictures and things like that, but is that usually where you send them to or is it always very varied?Paul:Yeah, it just depends on where they're at. Some brands have ... Again, some of this stuff isn't cool, but SEO and email marketing have some of the best returns and they're super still unbelievably effective. Focusing on those and making sure those are solid, you get some of the best brand for the buck ... You get your bang for the buck. Sorry. Because it's easy to go the shiny happy route, but the core of understanding kind of the SEO and how it's connecting on all your different content and how you're coming up in search results all across and mobile related, that's still ... And again, email marketing on ecommerce, we did a study here recently and saw that some of the most successful brands are their leads are coming from up to 40 to 50% of their net new sales are coming from email related.Paul:We make sure that you have your core fundamentals ready before ... And you might do this like a portfolio, right? Like hey, maybe you're dipping your toe into ... Get a few Tik Tok videos out there and explore with a couple people, and know that you're not going hard on that but making sure that you get your fundamentals down first.Stephanie:Yeah, that's such a good reminder I think just for business in general but to stay focused and make sure that you're not getting caught up in the craziness and everything new. Make sure you have your email list good and that you actually own that and you're sending out good stuff. I don't know if this question could get you in trouble, but I'm going to ask it anyways. What is something you believe around ecommerce that many don't agree with you on?Paul:Huh. I'll have to think about that one. It's kind of funny in some ways because I've come through the whole ... I'm the old guy in ecommerce, and so I've been the one being like, ecommerce is going to be bigger than it is. I feel like in the last six months that now I'm the hey guys, retail is not going away. Retail has been here for hundreds of thousands of years. It's not going away. There's a lot of proponents out there, I won't name any names, but ecommerce is everything, and I'm the ecommerce guy and I'm like, no it's not. Understand it's too easy to say things are black or white for clicks, as opposed to understanding the nuance.Paul:If you look at in China, they just met a massive milestone. They're now over 50% of retail is via ecommerce. If you look at the states, relatively speaking, depending on which calculation you're looking at is anywhere from 17% or 22%, let's say it's somewhere in between that. Less than half of the penetration in China, and so I don't think over the long-term retail won't be 100% ecommerce, right?Paul:Over time, it might get in the U.S., because of the way we're distributed and the ease of buying at retail, you might get up to 50, 60% in the next 10 years but you're never going to get to a hundred and ecommerce is not everything and more the conversation should be retail has just many forms. I'm now pivoted to make sure that we don't forget the importance of these great real life experiences and then how you can balance and leverage commerce online.Stephanie:That's great that you've had to flip now to defend the other side. I'm assuming you think that retail is going to be changing though in some way or shape or form.Paul:Of course.Stephanie:How do you see that playing out?Paul:I talked about the grocery and that's a great example. They are now changing the way they see their line ... Because one of the biggest growth areas in this past year has been about BOPIS, buy online, pick-up in store. You probably saw, like you might have gone to a store and there's all these pickers. If you go, like half of the people in the store were employees picking for pick-ups. Just recently Walmart announced how they're going to re-jigger and automate so that parts of their stores are add-ons will be automated specifically targeted towards BOPIS.Stephanie:Wow, interesting.Paul:They're looking at maybe rolling that out over the next year or two over 200 stores. It's pretty significant. Then if you look at Kroger, they bought Ocado which is one of the largest robot ... Being able to bring together delivery in stage and they're looking for closer to the store to provide support for BOPIS as well. What you're going to see is this the way real estate is leveraged very differently than the big huge aisles with the big cart. It may be optimized slightly differently.Stephanie:Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about optimizing retail locations, and when I think about having someone go and buy my groceries, all the dry goods just get what I need, but when it comes to my fruits and veggies and things like that, I still think people sometimes they have a certain kind of avocado they want, they have a certain color banana they want. It seems like there's a way to segment the store and the stuff can just be picked out for you because you know what you want, and then there's another part of the store that you can still go in and interact with and grab the things that you want because there's actually preferences around them. I don't know what that looks like but it seems like an interesting thing to think about.Paul:Exactly. It's just going to change.Stephanie:Yep. Just a minute before we hop into the lightening round, I did have a question around Internet or ecommerce penetration. You were mentioning that and it does seem like there's a lot of opportunities all around the globe because certain areas have very lower ecommerce penetration because of a lot of reasons. Are there any regions that you're betting on right now or that Deloitte's looking into of there's some opportunities coming up here once X, Y, and Z is solved?Paul:Yeah, the area that has the biggest potential for growth right now that is behind ... If you look at just relatively speaking, to give everybody a perspective, from an ecommerce adoption, China is number one, Europe and the UK are generally a little bit ahead, and a lot of that has to do with they're smaller and it's easier from some of the delivery. The biggest growth area that we see right now in the next short-term is around Latin America.Stephanie:I was just going to say Latin America. I've heard a lot of VCs that you probably follow mentioned how they're going to be up and coming with them.Paul:Mercado Libre based out of Brazil is one of the fastest growing and there's also another shop app that's just skyrocketed out of Brazil, and so they see Latin America, because again they've been behind on the retail penetration and they've been behind, but this whole COVID just pushed that all along. I think that's the next big massive growth compared to everywhere else.Stephanie:I was just looking at them yesterday so it's funny you mentioned that. All right, well let's move over to the lightening round. The lightening round is brought you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is our awesome sponsor. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Paul? All right. First one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Paul:It might actually be how this shipper container problem right now, all the ports are behind and not clear when some of the massive packaging and shipping issues around the world get sorted out. That might be the determinant, because if you can't get the products around the world, you might not be able to deliver what you want.Stephanie:That's a good one. Do you see any resolution with that? I don't understand what the problems are there. I've not looked into the shipping container world, so what's happening there and what could solve that?Paul:It's kind of a combo of stuff, and this has happened in a number of industries. It's kind of fascinating because it also kind of effected the way we planned. When you went back to a year ago into the spring and when you went back to all the historical of what happened when you had a large change and potential recession and what the impact was, you went back to, well, the shipping container industry went back and said, well, all our historical ... We got to pull back. They pulled back. What ends up happening, because of the ecommerce shift and spike, their demand very quickly ... They pulled back and it's hard to then build it back up when you're dealing with massive ships and containers around the world.Paul:By late summer, they realized oh crap, we're way behind and we need to catch up. That was part of it. Then you have a bunch of issues of hey, people on the essential front lines are just getting COVID and they can't deliver it, right? You have a combination of conservative planning, COVID actually effecting people, to geopolitical problems of hey, we don't want to receive packages and you're looking at different areas in the world that actually impact that. That's just another part of it that contributed to it. There was an article in Detail just this past weekend in New York Times that went into a little bit more detail.Stephanie:That's an interesting one and that's a lot at play. That'd be a good field or area to watch. Next question. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Paul:Oh, man. I've actually been kicking around potentially doing ... This might be a little bit of what are the slow ways to be successful at ecommerce, right? Because it's funny because I've been on Clubhouse now for six months and you've got all of these entrepeneurs that hey, make seven figures, eight figures in a month or two, but the thing ... ecommerce seems overly easy to get into, but to scale and be successful is very hard because there's so many factors that play a part of it that you don't have full control of it. If I had a podcast that I would do, I would say the slow way to success to ecommerce.Stephanie:I like that. I've seen a lot of those people on Clubhouse, their bios of I'll scale you to a million. I'm like, nah.Paul:Yeah, right away it's like, next.Stephanie:Yeah, I just don't trust it, not for a second. What's up next on your reading list specifically around ecommerce trends? What are you reading every day to stay on top of the latest?Paul:It's something that I probably spend a couple hours a day reading lots of stuff. I actually use Feedly, I have all these keywords that kind of feed in, and I follow a lot of ... There's a lot of great podcasts out here. Of course, I got to plug my friend, even though he works at a competing company, he used to work for me, Jason Goldberg. The Jason and Scott Show is probably the best ecommerce podcast out there.Stephanie:Yep, I like theirs too.Paul:He's also a personal friend. I've known him for a long time. There's a whole crew of people out there that are passionate about it, and so I'm kind of geeky about it. It's funny, Jason as the retail geek but in some ways I'm more the ecommerce geek.Stephanie:Yep, I like it. That is a good one to stay on top of. I like that. Then the last one, what one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Paul:Oh, man. I've come more from ... I'm more on the strategy and the technical side and the implementation. While I understand the marketing side okay, I really don't have the in-depth digital marketing side of it and I'd love to be able to spend more time and really focus around that area of how to really effectively connect. That's almost like another side of the brain that I have not spent the time on there.Stephanie:Yep. That's a good one. All right. Well, Paul, thanks so much for coming on the show and giving us a glimpse into what you're working on at Deloitte Digital. Where can people find out more about you or where can they follow you at?Paul:The easiest ... I'm quite active on Twitter, on deFornoP, you can follow me, and I try and share a couple articles a day of ... I curate good stories on both B2C and B2B commerce and people can also reach out to me at Deloittedigital.com or on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much, Paul.Paul:Awesome. Thank you.

We deal with a lot of stress every day. From balancing our responsibilities to merely reading the news, stress is an inevitable part of life. But contrary to popular belief, stress isn’t always the enemy. A healthy amount of stress allows us to grow more resilient to tougher conditions. Too much stress, however, can lead to the downfall of our well-being. Especially during these exceedingly stressful times, we need to manage our stress levels and build resilience.  In this episode, Paul Taylor joins us to share how we can better respond to stress and build resilience. He explains how too much stress can damage the body and the role of genetic predispositions in our health. Paul also gives us tips on training yourself to handle stress better. Finally, we talk about reframing negative self-talk and forming good habits. If you want to learn more about how to build resilience and handle stress better, then tune in to this episode.     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? 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If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor   Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.   What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.   Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules   Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility   Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Train yourself to build resilience and handle stressful situations better.  Discover ways to deal with negative thoughts. Learn Paul’s tips on creating good habits.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 183 - Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranov‪a‬ You can also watch Episode 183 on YouTube Watch my interview with Dr Seranova on The Interplay Between Autophagy and NAD Biology.  Learn more about NMN supplements on NMN Bio.  Stopping Automatic Negative Thoughts   Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl   Connect with Paul: Website | LinkedIn The MindBodyBrain Project with Paul Taylor The Better You Program by Paul Taylor   Episode Highlights [05:13] About Paul’s PhD in Resilience Paul is studying psychophysiological resilience.  Gratitude, empathy and mindfulness are necessary. But they are not sufficient factors in  studying resilience.  Paul is looking at the interaction between resilience, mental well-being and burnout in military guys.  Paul is developing a new measure of resilience. It uses self-reports, cognitive batteries and biological measures. [07:57] What Stress Does to Your Brain Consistent exposure to stress changes the brain, both structurally and functionally.  These changes make people less able to control their emotional responses.  People suffering from anxiety, depression, PTSD or burnout were found to have significant maladaptive changes in their brains. [17:38] Daily Stressors That Damage Us Aside from life traumas, the smaller daily stressors can also be damaging for us.  Paul believes that modern life is characterised by input overload that puts us in a constant state of stress. Our resilience and responsiveness to stress depend on factors such as genetics, social support and nutrition. Listen to the full episode to learn more about how nature and nurture inform how stress is processed in the brain. [22:40] Training Yourself to Build Resilience The Goldilocks Effect proposes that for optimal performance, stress levels must be just right. Specific training and repetition can help people arrive at an automated response regardless of their genetic predispositions. Learning arousal control strategies can make you act effectively under pressure. These strategies are also used routinely in training military, police or firefighters.  Breathing is one easy arousal control strategy. Specifically, techniques like box breathing and resonant frequency breathing help manage stress.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about breathing techniques and the autonomic nervous system. [29:49] Using Attention in Stress Response Our attention tends to be internally focused if we’re anxious, depressed or stressed.  If you’re not in danger or no external threat, shifting your attention outward can help minimise your stress. You can shift your attention to your breathing or the things you can sense. Paul says that we all have an ‘inner gremlin’. It’s a character that is responsible for negative self-talk, anger, anxiety and depression. Instead of listening to it, you can shift your attention to the “inner sage” or the best version of yourself. This process of “self-distancing” has been found to reduce people’s emotional intensity. Listen to the full episode to find out how to create a character based on these figures. [35:58] Discharge, Recharge and Reframe When you’re feeling overwhelmingly anxious, first find a way to discharge your stress hormones.  Paul finds that even 30 seconds of intense activity helps in discharging.  Then you recharge by focusing on your breathing. Lastly, reframe your perception by thinking about what your best character would do. [40:44] Dealing with Automatic Negative Thoughts You are not your negative thoughts. You can choose not to listen to them. In Japanese psychology, our automatic negative thoughts are stories we tell ourselves. What matters is what story we pay attention to.   The concept of Hebbian learning suggests that every time you’re repeating a thought, you’re strengthening it.  Interrupt your maladaptive and unhelpful thought patterns and create new healthier ones.  Watch your thoughts with curiosity and remember that you have a choice over the ones you can focus on. [48:10] The Importance of Getting Outside Your Comfort Zone The small circle-big-circle analogy is used to describe comfort zones. The small circle is your comfort zone and the big circle is where growth and adaptation happens.  Since the Industrial Revolution, humans have stopped adapting to their environment. Paul thinks that learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable is key to growing stronger and building resilience.  However, you can’t go outside your comfort zone and push yourself too hard all the time. You also have to allow yourself to recover physically and mentally. [53:05] On Recovery Seeking comfort is done during recovery. Recovery isn’t the same as relaxation.  Recovery is doing stuff that energizes you. If you don’t take the time to recover, you’ll run the risk of burnout. Balancing recovery, proper nutrition, good sleep hygiene and high-intensity training drives stress adaptation. [1:01:52] How to Make Good Habits and Stick to Them As humans, we are more driven by immediate rewards. Temporal discounting is what happens when our brains ignore rewards that are far off in the future.  Temporal discounting gets in the way of making good habits and achieving our goals.  In making good habits, it is important to understand your values and connect your behaviours to those.  Breaking big goals into smaller and more manageable goals makes it easier to follow through them. Engaging in enabling behaviour also helps in priming your brain to make your habits.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘And so this is what happens when people get burnout or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress in the case of trauma, or just complaints, daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery’. ‘So that resonant frequency breathing or box breathing can be really really useful and to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just, it's basically autonomic nervous system control through breathing’. ‘So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression or just have a busy mind, you know, they've got a lot of negative self talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and I say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention’. ‘I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner sage, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about, you know, that's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best or some sort of other character that I'm consulted’. ‘If you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen’. ‘You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right’? ‘And I find that there are a lot of high achievers who are at risk of burnout because they're just on, on, on. And not enough serotonin focused stuff, just contentment, relaxation, connection with others time in nature, all of that sort of stuff’.   About Paul Paul Taylor is a former British Royal Navy Aircrew Officer. Paul is also a Neuroscientist, Exercise Physiologist and Nutritionist. He is currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology. He is developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group & The University of Tasmania. In 2010 Paul created and co-hosted the Channel ONE HD TV series Body and Brain Overhaul. And in 2010 and 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. Paul also has an extensive background in health and fitness. Additionally, he has experience in leadership, management and dealing in high-pressure situations. His former roles include Airborne Anti-submarine Warfare Officer and a Helicopter Search-And-Rescue Crew Member with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm. He has also undergone rigorous Combat Survival and Resistance-to-Interrogation Training. In 2012, he practised what he preaches about resilience training and became a professional boxer. Want to know more about Paul’s work? Visit his website or follow him on Linkedin.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn to build resilience. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. I’m your host, Lisa Tamati. Today I have the legend Paul Taylor. Now Paul is a former British Royal Navy air crew officer. He's also a neuroscientist and exercise physiologist and a nutritionist. And he's currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology, where he's developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group and the University of Tasmania. This guy is an overachiever. He's done a whole lot of stuff in his life. In 2010, Paul created and co-hosted the Channel One TV series Body & Brain Overhaul. And in 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. This guy has been there, done that, and you're going to really enjoy the conversation today—all around resilience. He has so much knowledge, and he is with us all today. So I hope you really enjoy this episode with Paul Taylor.  Now before we head over and talk to Paul, I just want to remind you, if you're wanting to check out our epigenetics, what we do with our gene testing program that we have, where you look at your genes, understand your genes and how to optimise your genes, and how they are being influenced by the environment and how to optimise your environment, then please head over to my website, lisatamati.com. Hit the Work with Us button. Then you'll see peak epigenetics, peak epigenetics and click that button and find out all about it. Every second week, we have a live webinar where we actually take you through what it's all about, what's involved and how it all works. So if you want to find out about that, just reach out to me. You can reach me at any time and the support@lisatamati.com. If you've got questions around in the episodes, if you want to know a little bit more about any other guests, or you want to find out about anything that we do, please reach out to us there.  I also want to let you know about the new anti-ageing and longevity supplement NMN that I'm importing. I had a couple of episodes with Dr. Elena Seranova, who's a molecular biologist who shares all the information about this incredible supplement and how it upregulates the sirtuin genes in the body and helps create more NAD. Lots of big words but very incredible. The information in those episodes is really incredible. And if you want to try out this longevity and anti-ageing supplement, have more energy, it helps with cardiovascular health, there's even some evidence now starting to looking into fertility. It works on a very deep level in the body and helps upregulate the sirtuin genes which are longevity genes, helps with DNA repair mitochondrial biogenesis, lots of really good stuff. You probably didn't catch all those words, but go and listen to those episodes.  The product is called Nicotinamide Mononucleotide. It’s fully natural, there’s no downside to this. Very safe to take and will slow the ageing process. If you want to find out a little bit more head on over to nmnbio.nz, that's nmnbio.nz. Right, enough for today. I'm going to send you right now over to Paul Taylor who's sitting in south of Melbourne. Lisa: Well, hi everybody, Lisa Tamati here at Pushing The Limits. Super excited to have you. I'm just jumping out of my skin for excitement because today I have the legendary, Paul Taylor with me. Paul, how are you doing? Paul Taylor: Hi, I'm bloody awesome. How the devil are you? Lisa: Very excited to meet you. Paul is sitting in south of Melbourne, he tells me, in Wine Country. Is that right? Paul: That's correct. Like any self-respecting Irishman, I moved to where they make the wine. Lisa: An Irishman who lives in Australia, who is ex-British Royal Navy e-crew, neuroscientist, nutritionist, exercise physiologist—a bit of an overachiever, Paul. Crikey, could you do a little bit more, please? You're not doing enough. Paul: Well, I’m currently doing a PhD in Applied Psychology, just to sort of finish it—round it all out. And I need to keep myself out of mischief. Lisa: Crikey. I feel very intimidated right now. But I am very excited to have you on the show. Because I have come across you from our mutual friend Craig Harper, he is awesome. And I've been listening to your lectures and your work and your learnings, and just going, ‘Wow, this guy puts everything into such a lovely way - with stories and good analogies’. And so, I wanted to share you with my world, over here with my audience. So today, I wanted to do a bit of a deep dive. But before we get into it, so you are doing a PhD in resilience. So, can you elaborate a little bit on the PhD you’re doing? Paul: Yeah, so what I'm looking at is psychophysiological resilience, because I'm just bloody sick to the back teeth, hearing that resilience is all about gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness. And that stuff, it's important. But as I say, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient. And there is a large component of resilience that has to be earned. And that's the sort of stuff that I realized from my time in the armed forces.So, the positive side stuck is important. But there is a lot more to it. And I actually wanted to explore it and do the research on it.  And I'm very lucky that one of my supervisors, Eugene, is the principal scientist at Defence Science Technology Group. So, they work a lot with the military. And I'm actually doing—I'm just finishing off my first study with the military. So, it's pretty cool for me, having left the British military 16 years ago. Now, I’m doing resilience interventions with the Australian military. Lisa: Wow, I mean, it just sounds absolutely amazing. What sort of things are you—because I agree, like, the gratitude and all that very, very important—but it is, you can't just decide. Like, positive thinking, ‘I'm going to be positive thinking’. It's like a little bit more complicated than that. We need to look at things at a deeper level. What is it that your PhD is actually researching? So, what is the study that you've just done, for example? Paul: Yeah, so the one that we're doing, we basically—it's a pilot study. So, what we call a proof of concept. So, taking a bunch of military guys, and they've gone through training, so I did a full day's workshop, 34 hours with the guys. And then they went on to my app, to be able to sort of track behaviours and log habits and interact with each other and put the tools to the test. And so they did—they've done a survey on mental well-being, another survey on resilience, and another survey on burnout. So I'm actually looking at the interaction between your resilience levels, your mental well-being and your burnout, or risk of burnout in the workplace.  And what I'm hoping to do in further research is to develop further the model or the measurement criteria of resilience. Because at the minute, in the literature, it's just measured through a questionnaire, and it's pretty poor, really. Lisa: Wow, yeah. Very subjective. Paul: Yes, it just gets very subjective. And it's also influenced by—if you're doing a resilient survey, it's influenced by who is actually going to see that right. So, if you're doing it for your employer, a lot of people will actually think, ‘Oh, I better not answer this in a certain way, because there may be ramifications’. So there are limitations with any self-reported questionnaire.  But more lately, there's been some biological measures of resilience that have come out of University of Newcastle, which I'm actually going to be working with that group. So, they've actually lived in something called an acoustic startle response, which is basically you'd be sitting with your headphones on, doing some sort of task. And every now and then there'd be this light noise going off in your headphones, and you'd be all wired up. And they'd look at your heart rate, your blood pressure, your galvanic skin response. And you see there's a spike from your autonomic nervous system, right?  And what they have actually shown is that people who have higher levels of resilience on these self-reported questionnaires, they actually—they acclimatized or they adapt quite quickly to that noise, whereas those who have got lower resilience or who maybe have PTSD or anxiety or depression, they don't habituate to it. So, they're still getting that response, right. So, and this is about what is actually going on in the brain, and particularly an area called the amygdala, that I'm sure we'll get into.  So, I'm looking at a sit back and develop a triangulated measure of resilience. We're taking that maybe acoustic startle and some of the self-reports stuff, and then performance on a cognitive battery when you're under pressure, right? So, trying to then get a triangulated measure or a new measure of resilience. That’s a very long winded—yeah, so we can measure it a bit more objectively. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, because you're working with, like, in Special Forces, I think, in the military. So these are guys that are under immense pressure situations. And looking at our military and vets and stuff, and a lot of them come back with PTSD, and all sorts of mental health issues. And these guys that are coming into this are tough characters, these are not—and then they're coming out with problems. And even not in military, but just in things like my husband's a firefighter. The stuff that they get to see every day. Like he's a really strong, resilient, resourceful human being, but I'm seeing the load, the PTSD sort of load that's coming up over years and years and years are starting to have some bigger ramifications.  Do you see that people that are like super hardcore tough, amazing, but when they are going into these repeated situations and being because usually like exposure therapy is one of the things we do to lower our stress response. If you don't like spiders, and you have to hold a spider every five minutes, you're going to get used to holding a spider, and it no longer will cause a response. By the same token, are you seeing this going flip the other way? Where you're actually getting worse from exposure? Paul: Yeah, so there's a lot of academic research in this area, looking at not just PTSD, but also burnout. So, for me, there's that, there's a continuum of workplace burnout is linked in a way to post traumatic stress disorder, right? It's just that the exposure isn't as extreme. There's not that trauma, but it's the insidious, consistent exposure to stress that actually changes the brain. It changes the brain both structurally and functionally. So what I mean by that is what we're seeing in both PTSD and anxiety and depression, by the way, and workplace burnout, with the advent of brain scanners, they're able to take a bunch of people and follow them for a long period of time—six months, a year, two years. Ask them about their stress levels, and then look and see, does the brain change over time? And what they're actually seeing in that people who are suffering from burnout or anxiety or depression or PTSD, there are significant, as I said, structural and functional changes in the brain. So what I mean by that from a structural perspective, the amygdala, the part of the brain, one of its job is to sense and respond to stress, and it actually becomes bigger. And so there's  increased cells, increased connections and hypertrophy, it's just like your muscles with hypertrophy. And I'll come back to that in a second why this is, right. But in concert with that, areas of their prefrontal cortex, that rational planning judgment part of the brain, and also, another area called the anterior cingulate cortex—they're actually shrinking. There’s damage to those neurons and there's less activity in those areas. And what this means functionally, is it means it's a less-connected brain. And it means it's a brain that is less able to control emotional responses. So basically, the amygdala is starting to hijack the brain. The neuroscientist, Antonio Damasio, he's the first to show in his lab that with that repeated— if your amygdala becomes sufficiently activated, it can actually secrete chemicals to block your frontal lobes. Basically, it says, ‘Talk to the hand. I’m in control of this brain’. Right now we all know that as losing our shit, right? Things are hijacked. But when this is happening repeatedly, what's happening is that there are neuroplastic changes in the brain. Right? And we know that this even happens in unborn children, in fetuses, that if they're exposed to chronic stress in the third trimester, the amygdala will grow bigger and more sensitive. And if we think about it, it's an amazing adaptive response. Because it's basically, they're getting inputs through the placenta and stress hormones. If we're adults, we're getting input saying, ‘This is a dangerous word’. Right? Lisa: Got to be vigilant. Paul: Yeah, the brain is all about survival first, right? It's all about survival. So, and sometimes that adaptive response is maladaptive. Right? In that there are changes that no longer serve us, right? And so this is what happens with people get burnout, or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress, in the case of trauma, or just bombardment. Daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery. And I know as a lead athlete, you know about the balance between stress and recovery and just dealing with what you’ve got. Lisa: Never got it right. Paul: And then you don’t, right? Lisa: Burnout was my best friend. Yeah, there's a huge—because I studied genetics, there’s a huge genetic component to this as well. Paul: There is, yeah. Lisa: When you're looking at how long your adrenal, your stress hormones, for example, stay in the body, your COMT gene, your—the RD2 gene, the RD2B gene. Once they actually get the adrenaline, is it going to stay here in the body very long? Or is it going to be out? And they call it like the warrior gene and the worrier. Paul: Worrier and warrior. When I say it, people go, ‘What’s the difference’? I go... Lisa: Warrior as in a Maori warrior, and the other one as in worrying, worrying yourself to death. And there’s a genetic predisposition. And then you couple that with environmental, being overwhelmed with either an event or a series of events, or like you say, the constant bombardment. Because there's a question in my head, like, you and I, there’s history, we've both been in some pretty freakin’ scary situations in life. And those are certain traumas that you've been through and you've carried. But then there is a daily shit that goes on.  Like something that I'm dealing with currently is like, I don't know, but the level of anxiety sometimes is like as high just because I feel like a computer with a million windows open. And it's got inputs coming up. And there's so many—you're trying not to drop the ball, and you're wearing so many hats on so many levels. So that's a different type of anxiety. And it's—and that one that like the big, major ones that you've been through, they sort of self-explanatory that you've got problems with those. But these little ones can be quite damaging too, daily on the mind. Paul: Absolutely. And I like your analogy about having a million windows open. And that's really modern life, is it's just input overload for a lot of people. And it's, even we know that reading the news a lot, and the negativity particularly around COVID is just bad juju, right? Particularly if you are predisposed, or you have underlying anxiety. Then we've got kids, we got that juggle, we got kids and parents, right? And we got work stresses, we got money worries, we got relationship issues. These are all things that our ancestors didn't really have to deal with. Right?  And our stress response system has evolved over the last 2 million years in our ancestors in response to certain challenges. Right, so three minutes of screaming terror on the African savanna when you're being chased by a lion—that's your fight or flight mechanism. And then longer term or really traumatic stress, but mostly longer term stress, like famine. And that's the HPA axis and cortisol. And as you rightly said, different people are different. There's genetic predispositions to which one is dominant, how quick the clearing is. But there's also that, as you rightly say, and a lot of people don't understand this, is that the interaction between nature and nurture. That just because you have a certain variant of a gene, it predisposes you—it doesn't mean you're going to develop that, there needs to be that event. And then we know that those events, when they happen early in life, tend to have a bigger impact. Right? Lisa: So children exposed to trauma are in much deeper in the shit than others Paul: Can be. Unless they have the presence of a caring, supportive adult, often, they can get through it and end up being more resilient. Or they've got a certain variant of a gene, that when they're exposed to stress as a kid, they end up more resilient as an adult. So, it's a really complicated thing. And the thing that I also talk about a lot of people don't, is it also depends on other environmental factors going on. Like what's your nutrition like? Like, what's your sleep like? What's your exercise like? All of those things are hugely, hugely important. It’s a really complicated story, as to whether someone and develop some psychopathology because of exposure to either trauma, or just that insidious day to day stress—what we call de-stress versus used stress, which I'm sure we'll get into. Lisa: Yeah, now that's absolutely exciting because I mean, I preach a lot about doing the fundamentals right. Getting a sleep—at the basis of everything is good quality sleep. And that's not easy. It's not always an easy simple thing. Paul: But check if you're under stress, right? Lisa: Yeah, yeah, because your brain won't bloody turn off. And studying the gamma and dopamine and adrenaline and norepinephrine and all these chemicals that are running out and they're actually controlling us to a large degree, or at least when we're unaware of their influence on the body. But there are things that we can actually do to actually help regulate our own physiology. So I mean, guys and girls in the armies, in the military, have to do this. Or even like I watch my husband and my brother—they’re firefighters—when they're under an emergency situation, three o'clock in the morning, called to a bloody accident, someone's trapped in a burning car type of situation. Like, my husband's just so cool and calm and collected in that moment, like he's completely present. And in daily life, he's quite a shy, introverted dude, right. But when the shit hits the fan, I've seen his like, he doesn't put on a cabbage head. When I looked at his genetics, he doesn't have that predisposition to having adrenaline much. He doesn't have much of an adrenal response. So he'll come up for a minute, and then he'll be back down very quickly, and he’ll be able to control it. And he also understands, I've taught him more about breathing and all that sort of jazz to help regulate your cortisol and all of that sort of stuff. But it is a predisposition.  My predisposition, I have a hell of a lot of adrenaline, testosterone up the wazoo, dopamine. I tend to start really responding and taking action. But I have to actually turn on the prefrontal cortex. I have to really focus on that and not just fly around like a blue ass fly going just running into the burning building without thinking about what the hell I'm doing. So, two different responses—and both are very good responses in a way, if you can learn to manage them and control them and bring them on at the right time. Paul: Yeah, and look, that's where the training element comes into, right? And so, irrespective of what your underlying genetics are, through military training or police or firefighters, they are trained in these situations routinely. And the brain sort of habituates to it and you learn strategies to be effective under that pressure, what we call arousal control strategies, right. So, whether that is—an arousal control can be both ways can be—for people who are generally low, can be getting them up to the right level of arousal. And for people who are a bit too overactive, bringing their arousal down, so they're in that peak performance zone. Let's say the neuroscientist Amy Ornstein talked about Goldilocks and the Goldilocks effect of stress in the brain. That it can't be too little, because when you're bored or you're under arousal, your performance is just not going to be optimal. But also it can’t be too much. And everybody's got a level of arousal that is too much. Lisa: Wow. That's a cool analogy. I like that, Goldilocks. Paul: It's a wonderful analogy. And she's shown, looks at the neurotransmitters that are involved in that—and particularly looking at dopamine and noradrenaline, or norepinephrine, as some people call it, how they're really important in that regulation. But as I say, training, specific training and repetition, can really help people just to get into an automated response. And no matter what their genetic predisposition. Lisa: So if someone is prone to a lot of anxiety, and maybe depression, what are some of the practical—like, if we start talking a few practical strategies now for people dealing with different issues — and let's start with anxiety and maybe depression—what are some of the things that they can do when their amygdala hijacks you? How do you get a grip on yourself and actually change the physiology? Because you feel some big noise happens, or an earthquake happens, or something and you've got that adrenaline just poured out and you’ve got all this stress cortisol and all that, how do you bring yourself down quickly, get yourself under control? So you don't end up in a panic attack, for example? Paul: Yeah, so there's both short-term strategies and there's long term adaptive strategies, right? So, and I'll go into both of those things. First of all, it's important to understand what's going on, right? So this is about the autonomic nervous system. And there are—some of your listeners will be aware of this, but there's two branches of the autonomic nervous system. There's the sympathetic nervous system, and the parasympathetic. And the sympathetic is probably badly labelled because it's not very sympathetic, right? It's the one that increases stress, right? So, and if we think about the response that's going on—so in the brain, the amygdala senses a threat, it sets off a general alarm. And then, the hypothalamus is involved in this, the sympathetic branches is fired up. And for some people, it fires up more than others. But for everybody, when that's fired up, and the vagus nerve is really quite important in this, that's the nerve that connects the brain to the heart, the lungs and all the visceral organs, right? So and the blood pressure goes up, heart rate goes up in order to pump blood to the muscles to give you the fight and runaway, right. And additionally, breathing gets faster and shallower. And then, we know your digestive system is affected and all the blood that is in your digestive system, digesting your food... Lisa: Your peristalsis. Paul: It’s shunted away. It’s shunted away to the working muscles, right, we know the immune system is temporarily switched off, the reproductive system’s temporarily switched off because there's no point in ovulating or creating sperm when you're being chased by a lion. It’s a waste of energy, right? If we think for a second about the long-term consequences when people are in a chronic state of overarousal, even if that's just low baseline overarousal. So, I have a suppressed reproductive system. This is why people who are chronically stressed, and they become infertile. Right? Boom. And this is why they develop digestive system issues like irritable bowel syndrome and stuff like that, which we know can change your microbiome. And then there's a two-way interaction, which we'll talk about later. And the immune system becomes suppressed. That's why people develop—they get sick, and they take longer to recover, whether it's from a wound, whether it's from training load, or whether it's from any type of illness or injury. And then heart damage can happen, right, and with that chronic stress. So that's over activation of the sympathetic branch, and particularly the vagus nerve, right? What we now know is it's only taken our scientists about 3,000 years to catch up with the knowledge of Yogi's, right? Yeah, exactly. Certain breathing patterns can affect your heart and your brain. And I used to think, all that breathing, I used to think it was fluffy bullshit. Until I get into the science—and Jesus, how wrong was I? Lisa: Me, too. I must admit, and now I'm doing it 100 times a day. Paul: Yeah, exactly. So, techniques like box breathing. I'm sure your listeners have probably heard you talk about it. Lisa: Repeatedly. Paul: Yeah, breathe in like the sides of a box. Breathe in for four or five seconds, hold for four or five, out for four or five, hold for four or five. And you can also do a modified box breathe, which is in for four, hold for four, out for six, hold for two. And I'll talk about that in a second. There's also something called resonant frequency breathing, which is also really, really beneficial and can actually enhance your what's called heart rate variability, which is a kind of a window into overall stress on the body.  So, reso-frequency being—you need some equipment to measure it effectively. But generally, everybody listening is probably between four and a half, five breaths and seven breaths a minute. And it's been shown that if you get within one of that, then you could. So I teach people, just generally six breaths a minute, right? So that's 10-second breath cycle, but breathe in for four and out for six. Because the longer breath out—when you breathe in, you are up regulating your sympathetic nervous branch, right? When you breathe out, you're activating the parasympathetic nervous branch. So, the long breath out is really, really key, which is why I talk about the modified box breathing as well. So that resonant frequency breathing, or box breathing can be really, really useful to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just—it's basically autonomic nervous system controlled through breathing, that’s it. Lisa: Control your physiology in seconds. Paul: And the other thing that goes in concert with that, and my wife uses a lot of this, she's qualified in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in Japanese psychology. And we're both fans of stoic philosophy. And it is about attention, and all three of these great agree that attention is key. So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression, or just have a beasty mind, they've got a lot of negative self-talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and as they say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention.  So, if you think of your attention, like a light, and when you're in that stress response, your attention, and it is very internal focused, if you're anxious or depressed, or you're stressed about something that's on that particular thing. But it's an internal experience that you're having. So just shifting your attention outward. If you're not in danger, this is—you just have an anxiety, depression, whatever, just look for the colour blue. That's one thing. Just shine the light of your attention somewhere else. Lisa: Like a naughty kid who’s having a tantrum. Just distract them. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And I call that part of the brain your inner gremlin, that’s responsible for anxiety, depression. And but also just negative self-talk and self-criticism, and anger — all of these things. And the key thing to understand is your gremlin’s like a chameleon, right? It can take many guises. But it's like, if you remember the movie Gremlins, when you feed Mogwai after midnight, it becomes energised and turns into the Gremlin. So, when you shine the light of your attention on the gremlin, it becomes energised. So this is where you just shift your attention either to where's the colour blue or what can I smell? Lisa: Or breathing. Paul: Or we like to—or your breathing—yeah, that's another great combination. And I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner siege, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about. That's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best, or some sort of other character that I'm consulting. Lisa: Ah, yes, I heard you talk about this on Craig’s show. And I was like, that analogy that you use, like there was one with your son, Oscar. And him talk, having Derek, I think it was... Paul: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Derek. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: So creating a character around these two polarizing figures. I’m always talking about the lion and the snake in my head. Or Wonder Woman in this chicken shit, who’s me. And we all have this positive, amazing self. And we have the self that's full of self-doubt and imposter syndrome, and I can't do this, and angry, and negative, and cynical. And so it's creating a character. So tell that story a little bit. Paul: Yeah. So the character thing is really, really powerful. And so I get people to—you've got to bring this character to life, right? So there's a little exercise, which I'll share with you. And you can share with your listeners where, so I call them your inner Gremlin and your inner siege, right? Or you can say whatever you want. So, what do they say first thing in the morning, right? You write that down. Generally your inner Gremlin is the one that says, ‘Press snooze’ or ‘Not another bloody day’, right? But then you go, what do they say when they're faced with a challenge? And then you write down their character strengths and particularly, you focus on your inner siege, what are the character strengths that you have when you're at your best? And then I like to do a thing called plus ones. Like what are ones that you'd like to develop or have more of? And you write down. So, if it's calm under pressure or being more empathetic, I'm going to write down that my inner siege is calm under pressure, is more empathetic, right?  And then drawing the characters is a brilliant thing because it brings it to life. And Oscar when he drew the characters, he drew Derek and he drew Flash, who has now actually being replaced with Richie. A little side story. I actually bought a book called The Real McCaw from Richie McCaw because I am a big fan of the All Blacks, and particularly Richie McCaw. And I bought his book, and I was wanting to read it, and it friggin’, it disappeared, and I couldn't find where it was. And one night, I went down to Oscar’s room. He was supposed to be asleep, and he's there reading. And he's reading that book. He'd nicked it from me, and he had a highlighter. He's 10 years old, and he's highlighting stuff what Richie McCaw said, right. So now, his inner siege is called Richie, right? But when he drew these original ones, he actually did a speech bubble for Derek and it said, ‘I will crush the good ones and I will be the king of Oscar’s head’. How cool is that? Lisa: And he’s 5 or something. Paul:  No, he was seven at a time. Lisa: 7. Oh my god. But I mean, the hard cold, maybe 6, actually. But sometimes kids are so insightful. Because that's what happens, right, is that when that negative character takes a hold of the negative self-talk, it does crush the good self-talk, kind of becomes the king of your head. If you choose to let it, right? Paul: So my inner siege is called, Jeff. So when I'm struggling, or I need to get myself up, I just go ‘What would Jeff do right now’? Right? And so this is a process in psychology called self-distancing, where you're taking yourself out of the emotional state, and you consult a character or my best friend or whatever, and it actually shows it reduces the emotional intensity. And research shows that people make better choices. They're more courageous, and they make better choices, right. And so that's one, I think, really useful way to shine the light of your attention. So, the process that I use, depending on who's around, right, if someone's having a bit of an anxiety or just a bit of negative stuff, I like discharge, recharge, reframe. So think about it, it’s stress hormones, right? If somebody’s having an anxiety, get it out. You got to discharge those stress hormones. When you run away... Lisa: Go for a run. Paul: ...you come back to homeostasis, right. And I find, even 30 seconds of intense activity is enough. So, you discharge the stress hormones, then you recharge by your breathing, right. So you're doing that breathing and you're focusing on your breathing. And then, so your amygdala hijack is gone now. Use you're focusing on the breathing, and then you reframe and you go, ‘Okay, what would Jeff do right now’? Or ‘What would my character do right now’? Or, if I've written down all my character strengths, what action do I need to take right now to display those characteristics? Right? So the Japanese psychology, Morita Therapy, there's this beautiful term called, arugamama, right? It is what it is. And then they say, ‘What needs to be done’? And the stoics are very much like that — what do we need to do right now? So it's very action focused. Right? And so that is something that I think works for me well. Lisa: Yeah. Because it sort of removes yourself so that you're looking—it's like looking down on yourself. Because this brain of ours is like a thought factory, it just keeps going and talking and chattering and go, go, go, go. And yeah, emotions take over, amygdala often is in control of our prefrontal cortex. And if we can separate ourselves and sort of hover over ourselves—and I've been looking into stuff like what happens after death because I just recently lost my dad and all those questions. ‘How do I connect to my dad on the other side’? All of that sort of jazz that nobody can bloody answer, really.  Paul: Yeah, if you get the answer, let me know. Lisa: Yeah, I’m working on it. I'm really trying to get it out. But a lot of talking about the connection to the other side and opening up those channels, and to me, it's like, okay. So just from a brain point of view, if I just separate myself out from my brain, like, if you believe that we are a spiritual being and so our brain, our body, we're just walking around in this earthly body, but we have a higher self, if you like. So, it’s this higher self looking at that brain going, ‘Oh she's running that stupid program again that she learned when she was seven. It's no longer relevant here, I need to change the recording, and I need to change up’.  So it's just giving yourself a way of separating yourself from the actual emotions that your body is feeling, your physiology is feeling like now. And for me, a lot of it is, when I get anxious and stuff, I will just go and sprint for 50 metres. Like you say, it doesn't have to be long, it might be 2 minutes. It just comes back, reset myself. Sometimes if it's a really bad situation or whatever, I'll have a little cry that discharges more energy. And then I pick myself up and we'll get on with it, and we'll do a breathing, and we'll get back into gear. And just having those little tools in your toolbox can really help you manage the day-to-day crap that comes at us. And even in the big situations, the really traumatic ones, I've used those situations regularly—just remove myself for a minute from the situation, go and get my shit together. And then come back into the situation. And that can really help if you have the luxury of doing that. So, I think these are really, really important because people often think, well, they look at someone like you and all your achievements and all stuff that you've done—or even in all the races that I've done. ‘No, never. I could never do that’. And that's your automatic negative thoughts coming in, your angst, as Dr. Daniel Amen talks about, they just pop up. And you need to realize that that isn't you, that's just your brain doing its thing. And you can choose not to believe that brain when it tells you you're not good enough, or you're not sexy enough, or you're not pretty enough, you're not strong enough, whatever the case may be. You can go, ‘No, I'm not listening to that’. And I'm diverting, and what you're saying, is divert your attention. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And those answers are automatic negative thoughts. In Morita Therapy, Japanese psychology, it's basically, it’s a story. It's a story that we tell ourselves, and there are a number of different stories. And it depends what story we pay attention to. And because when you pay attention to a particular story, when we think about what's happening in the brain, that self-concept, or that idea that ‘I'm not good enough’, is basically what we call a neural net in the brain, right? It's a bunch of neurons that are firing together for a concept or a thought or a particular line of thinking.  And the Scottish neuroscientist Donald Hebb showed in the 1950s, it's called Hebbian Learning. And it's a well-accepted way of the brain works, nerve cells that fire together, wire together. Right? So every time you're repeating that thought, or paying attention to it, you're strengthening it. And he showed that eventually, after a certain amount of repetitions—and we don't know the magic number—but that circuit becomes what's called long-term potentiation. This means that this circuit is primed for firing. And it means that then even neutral information is more likely to fire off that circuit, right? And every time you're paying attention to it, you're strengthening it.  So, the other approach is to go, ‘Thanks, Gremlin’, or ‘Thanks, brain. Thanks for that story that you're telling me. But it's not helpful right now’. Right. And that's where you focus on another story, or a particular affirmation that people might have. A different story, I've got this, whatever, it's another neural net. And every time you're focusing on it, and paying attention to it, you're strengthening it, right? So it's about interrupting the old and maladaptive, unhelpful thought patterns... Lisa: That we all have. Paul: ...and actually creating new ones. And every time you catch yourself—this is why the first part of all of this is about being the watcher. It's about being the watcher in your own brain. And for lots of people, this is a frigging revelation, that they can actually watch their thoughts, and do it with curiosity. And go, ‘Wow, there's an interesting negative thought. And that's an interesting negative’...  Lisa: Great example! Paul: Yeah. And then be curious and go, ‘Well, what would a more positive thought actually be’? Right? So you can trick yourself into having these positive thoughts and every time you're doing it, you're laying down and strengthening those networks in the brain, right? So like anything, like you didn't become awesome at what you did by doing it once and then boom, that's it. It's about repetition, repetition, repetition. So, really the first step is being the watcher, and then just repeatedly intervening, and going, ‘Actually, I have a choice’, right? And what's called in Acceptance Commitment Therapy, the choice point. And Viktor Frankl talked about it, the Jewish psychiatrist who was imprisoned in Auschwitz. And I read his book as a 17-year-old, had a pretty profound effect on me. He said, in between stimulus and response, is the space where we have the ability to choose. And he talked about the last of human freedoms, is your ability to choose how you react to your circumstances, whether they be external circumstances or circumstances in your head, we all have that ability to choose how we're reacting, right. And choosing what we actually focus on. And it's this light of attention, that I think is really, really powerful. So when we wrap it all up in those characters, and then we're repeatedly doing it, and then people are waking up in the morning, and actually spending a few minutes saying, ‘Okay, who am I going to be today? What version of me is going to interact with the world’? And every time they observe negativity going, ‘Well, I say I've got a choice right now. What would Jeff do right now’? Right? Before they walk into their office, and just before you walk in the door, just think, ‘What do I need to do to express those characteristics of my best self’? And especially when you come home, particularly if you've had a shitty day, you just spend 10 or 15 seconds going, ‘Okay, there's a choice here and what version of me, do my partner, my little kids want to see walk into the room’? Right?  And it's just that little mental rehearsal, as you'll have done hundreds of thousands of times as an athlete and every world class athlete does this mental rehearsal because that shit works. Get your game face on. Lisa: Get your game face. I have this analogy and I've told this story before on the podcast but when I was doing this race in the Himalayas and absolutely terrified, 222 K's of extreme altitude... Paul: Jesus Christ! Lisa: And I’m an asthmatic with a small set of lungs, who did mostly deserts for a particular reason. And I was absolutely packing myself, and I got my crew together like two days before and I said, ‘You have to protect me, my brain. You have to like tell me how amazing I am. Every time a negative thought comes up, I want you to sort of shout it down for me and protect me from everyone else’.  And on the day of the actual event, they did that and they really helped me get my shit under control because I was really losing it. Like I was just terrified I'd had a concussion in the build-up, I'd had to rip some ligaments, so I hadn't had a good build up. And it was the scariest thing I've done at the time. And I've done some other scary crazier shit but that was pretty up there.  And on race day, you wake up and you have that moment for a second where you go, ‘Oh shit. It’s that day’. That day you've been  preparing for, for a year and a half, but it's that day and you've got to get up and face down 222Ks in the mountains in extreme temperature, extreme altitude, and no air and things. And I'm putting on my gear, and then that person changes. When I put on my running gear... Paul: That’s your thing. Right. Lisa: It’s my thing. That's my ritual. Paul: That’s your siege. Lisa: When I put on a number, there's a different person in front of you. And that person is a freaking warrior. Paul: Machine, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, in my head. I’m not, but I am in my head, in that moment, I am Wonder Woman. I'm Gal Gadot. I can do any freaking thing and I’m telling myself the story, I'm telling myself the story in order to create the chemicals in my body that I need just to get to the freaking start line and not run the other way because I'm terrified.  And then, once you start and you're in the battle, you're in the battle. You're in it. There's no way out but through. And then you have to bring in all the guns. Over the period of the next 53 hours, I had to bring out all of the stock, sort of things, to get through every crisis that came. And these voices in your head are pretty freaking loud after 50 something hours out there. Paul: That they bloody well are, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, but when you go—because one of the other analogies that I wanted to bring up that you talked so well about in one of the interviews was the small circle and the big circle. And the small circle is your comfort zone. That's you, that's the life that you're living when you're in your comfy world and you're not pushing outside the zone. And you’re staying safe because you're too frightened to jump out into the big circle is what you can be, and your potential.  But out there, in that big circle, it's freaking scary, it's hard work, it's terrifying, there’s risk of failure, there's all sorts of things. And everybody wants to be that big person that does these, lives this full life, that reaches their—none of us will reach our full potential, but we're reaching a heck of a lot of potential. And not living in the safe, little comfortable, ‘I'm scared’ world. And pushing yourself every single today to do shit that hurts, that’s hard, scares the crap out of you. And then coming back and recovering. Paul: It’s critical, right? And I called that big circle, our scientists will refer to that as the zone of productive disequilibrium, right? Lisa: Those are scientists’ words? Paul: Yeah, exactly. So you're out of balance, you're out of whack. But it is where adaptation happens. And this is the problem. So we are by our very nature, we are comfort seekers, right. And just because all of our history has been of discomfort, and so it's pretty natural that we're comfort seekers. The problem is that we have an ancient genome in a modern world. Our genome hasn't changed in 45,000 years, right. And for the vast majority of our human history, we had lots of discomfort, life was uncomfortable, and we became the dominant species on Earth, largely because we adapted better to environmental stressors and pressures than other species right. Now, what's happened in the last 100 years since the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the last 30 years, is that we have stopped adapting to our environment, and we've started changing it. And recently, we've changed our environment to such a level that we're no longer optimally matched to it genetically, right. So when we seek comfort, we get soft, we develop a soft underbelly. And this is what a lot of the positive psychology people do not talk about, is that getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.  And you can just do this, quite simply, if you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen. And lots of people spend most of their life in that little small circle, the comfort zone, and they dip their toe into the uncomfortable zone of productive disequilibrium. They go, ‘This is uncomfortable. I'm getting right out of here’. No good shit ever happened in your comfort zone. Right? Lisa: It’s a quote from Paul Taylor, ‘No good shit ever happens in your comfort zone’. You gotta put that one on the wall. Paul: It’s like past 2am. Right?  That's the thing, no good shit happens there. So, it is about seeking discomfort. And one of my things, which you actually exemplify much better than me, but it’s that get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? Yeah, that's really key. And I think we have, as a generation, particularly in the West, we have got comfortable with being comfortable. And we are comfort seekers. Lisa: Getting cosy all the time. Paul: It's all, it's served up to us everywhere. And we're prompted to buy things and do things that make us comfortable. And it's natural to want to go there. But it's not self-serving. Lisa: But our biology isn't, our epi genome isn't suited. Paul: Absolutely not. Lisa: Getting out of that thermoneutral zone, for example, like cold showers, cold water, hot. All of these things that are outside the neutral zone are where the change happens, from a physiological point of view. If I hop into a sauna, I'm going to create heat-shock proteins, I’m gonna sweat. That's going to cause all this cascade of events in my body that will make me stronger. The next time when I go to the gym and I work out with weights, then I'm going to be sore and I'm going to be breaking down the tissues. What happens is a cascade of events that makes me stronger for next week. Paul: And here's the thing, right, that if somebody wants, if somebody goes one, if someone hasn’t been trained for ages and particularly, they’re bloke. And they go riding got to get back and then they go to a CrossFit class or F 45 hard core. And they go, ‘Jesus. That was ridiculous. I'm never doing that again’. But then you're not going to adapt, right? You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right. Now, seeking comfort, we should do that when we're in recovery, right? But a lot of people, and we should really define the difference between recovery and relaxation. Right? Recovery isn't sitting with your feet up with a bottle of wine watching Netflix, right? Recovery is stuff that is actually energising you, right? It’s doing the breathing stuff, it’s doing the meditation, doing the tai chi, the qi gong, those sorts of things, yoga. Or for some people, it's drawing, it's reading a book, it's connecting with others, it's gardening, it's spending time in nature. These are all things that really help us with that balance between stress and recovery. And when, if we get that right, the stress becomes used stress. And if we are just exposed to that too much or don't get the recovery, right, it's de stress. And then we can go into burnout/overtraining syndrome, which then when you look at the physiology between overtrained athletes and burnt out executives and depressed people, it’s almost identical. Lisa: Yeah. And like, I've had to try to get my head around this because when you're an athlete—and I grew up in a household where being tough was cool. And physical toughness and mental toughness were what was valued and what was rewarded in my family. So therefore, I have this complete construct in my head that if you're not tough, and you're not hard ass all the time, then you're useless. And I had to deconstruct that a little bit because that lead me to burnout, that broke me, that lead to hell of a lot of pain in sickness and all sorts of things. Now, as I'm hopefully older and wiser, I know that my body also has a full on and it has to have a full off. And that recovery is really important. And that recovery can be cuddling the cat, it can be going to the beach with my husband and just staring at the waves for half an hour to recover. It doesn't have to be something epic, and it can be something like the sauna

Paul Oh/Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce Paul Oh serves as the Manager of Public Policy & Community Affairs for the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce. The mission of the Gwinnett Chamber is to strengthen existing businesses, facilitate the growth of quality job opportunities, and enrich the community's quality of life. In addition, the Gwinnett Chamber is the […] The post Update on Georgia Legislative Session and Public Policy appeared first on Business RadioX ®.

Paul Oh/Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce Paul Oh serves as the Manager of Public Policy & Community Affairs for the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce. The mission of the Gwinnett Chamber is to strengthen existing businesses, facilitate the growth of quality job opportunities, and enrich the community s quality of life. In addition, the Gwinnett Chamber is the […]

Rev. Ryan Fehrmann, pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Wausau, WI joins host Rev. Brady Finnern to study Colossians 4:2-18. Paul gives his final instructions and greetings.  Continue steadfast in prayer.  Pray that the LORD would open a door for the Gospel of Christ’s full and free forgiveness to be declared and our words may be gracious, seasoned with salt.  This is a tall order, but not only will God give You His Holy Spirit and He gives you fellow believers.  Paul shows us that we need not be lone rangers.  He had Tychicus, Onesimus, Mark, Justus, Epaphras, Demas, Nympha, and Archippus, not only for encouragement to one another, but also to spread the Word around.  “Lord God, surround us with fellow Christians to serve You and love others.  Give us lips to pray, give You praise, and encourage one another as if it is seasoned with salt.  Lord have mercy.  In Christ, Amen.”

I'm Struggling Are You? It happens to us all, at some time in our lives and that is to struggle with starting, doing, or finishing those things we want to start, do or finish. I'm currently struggling with doing the things I want to be doing but something seemed to be hampering me and it just feels Ugh! I wanted to share my personal struggle and the thoughts and actions I had and took. It just might resonate with you, encourage you and share some tools and thoughts. In fact, I've come up with 5 ways, 5 options that sprung to mind. I know there are many more and we'll probably talk about them later. If you have some ways that get you over your personal struggles do let me know. You know the email So what are those 5 ways Cloughie? Well before you start to work on this the classic STOP and Pause so we can reset our state and intention. WE all know we cannot solve a problem insie the problem - you can't read the label from inside the jar. Then what? Well now you have to come with me to explore these and understand the 'hows' because this is a podcast and not a book   :O) And when you do and you get those golden nuggets I've hidden in plain sight please do share this episode and this podcast to all you know, it's your way you can pay it forward. https://personaldevelopmentunplugged.com/221-im-struggling Shine and be well Paul Oh! the ritual book 'Daily Rituals' by Mason Currey Please remember you can leave a comment or email me with questions, requests and feedback. If you have enjoyed this or any other episode please share and subscribe. Just email me feedback@personaldevelopmentunplugged.com Go to paulclough.co.uk/subscribe to learn more Or simply click here to go straight to Apple Music / iTunes to subscribe OR leave a review If you want to access my FREE HYPNOSIS tracks go to paulcloughonline.com/podcast Follow and inter-react on twitter @pcloughie Why not look for me and the podcast on > SPOTIFY AND the app Castbox I'm also in iHeart radio YouTube - copy n paste UC3BlpN4voq8aAN7ePsIMt2Q into search bar The Libsyn podcast page http://personaldevelomentunplugged.libsyn.com Stitcher, tunein, learnoutloud, Google Play Music Here is your show on RadioPublic: Listen to Personal Development Unplugged on RadioPublic I’m a therapist but not your therapist The information with this website or online work, techniques and exercises provided within these free and paid products are for educational purposes only. Do not use the techniques or exercises contained within some of these free or paid products whilst driving or operating machinery, or if you suffer from epilepsy, clinical depression or any other nervous or psychiatric conditions. The information provided is not a substitute for proper medical advice. If in doubt, please consult your doctor or licensed medical practitioner. Any decision you make having received any of Paul Clough's free or paid products are your own and you remain wholly responsible for any decisions and actions you take.  

A couple of posts ago, I talked about whether church should be thought of more as a family (or community) or as a society (or enterprise). I ended up arguing that both were important, and needed to be held together. And this got me thinking. Have you ever pondered just how many different aspects of Christian teaching are exactly like this—consisting of two truths that need to be held together at the same time? Always two there areAt the risk of opening a can of bantha fodder with all you Star Wars nerds out there, one of the very few interesting things to emerge from the otherwise execrable Episode I: The Phantom Menace was the elucidation of the ‘rule of two'. The evil Sith lords, it seems, were very much into ‘two' as a number. ‘Always two there are', croaks Yoda, ‘no more, no less; a master and an apprentice'. Which is a tad ironic coming from Yoda, because it's not just the Sith. The whole ridiculous philosophical mashup of the Star Wars universe (of which Yoda is the main spokes-jedi) also depends on a basic dualistic fight between two—between the good side and the dark side of the Force.But how are those two related? In Star Wars (as in its ancient real world ancestor, Manichaeism), the two are in constant tension and war, striving for supremacy. In other philosophies (like Buddhism and Gnosticism and all forms of mysticism), the basic two-ness of the world is resolved by downplaying, denying or demonising one side of it—the physical world and its suffering is bad, nasty and not quite real; only the spiritual, non-physical realm is real and good and worth pursuing. And in modern rational humanism (following Hegel) we are confident that we can think the two antithetical sides together, and by so doing come to some new and greater synthesis. To which I would say—two world wars, and 100 million killed in genocides? Synthesize that! However, the biblical universe has its own distinctive approach to the ‘twoness' of reality. Think, for example, about the following pairs of theological truths: * God's sovereignty and human responsibility, in our conversion and in the rest of our Christian lives; * God's providential upholding of the creation at every moment, and the rational, cause-and-effect functioning of the world day by day;* the divine authorship and human authorship of Scripture;* the full divinity of Jesus Christ and his full humanity;* God's immanent, close presence with all of us and his holy transcendent otherness, far above all of us; * the ‘vertical' element of our church gatherings (our engagement with God himself) and the ‘horizontal' element (our engagement with each other);* the fact that we are fully and completely justified by Christ's blood, and yet at the same time remain sinful in our character and behaviour (simul justus et peccator as Luther put it; ‘at the same time justified and a sinner'); * the reality of of being seated at God's right hand now, and yet remaining fully here in this present evil age—our eschatology is now but not yet; * we stand before God as individuals and grow as individuals; and yet we are unavoidably part of a corporate body as well (whether that is all of humanity in Adam, or the body of Christ). Perhaps you can think of others.It is very striking how many of the great truths of Christian revelation consist of two truths held together at the same time—neither denying one side nor the other, nor seeking to resolve the apparent tension between them. In fact, the history of Christian heresy and error could be told as the failure to hold two truths fully together, either by downplaying one truth or the other, or by thinking that the way to hold them together was by balancing them in some sort of proportion. The Christological heresies of the early church, for example, almost all ended up choosing a side—Christ's divinity or his humanity—and failed to hold both together fully, as the orthodox creeds insisted that we must. The Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heretics (who believed in salvation by works or partly by works) couldn't bring themselves to say that salvation was through faith alone by grace alone, because they felt that to do so was to sideline or eliminate human responsibility. In much the same way, Arminianism can't cope with saying that humans are fully responsible and culpable, while at the same time affirming that God is utterly sovereign in election. Likewise with eschatology—if we lean too hard on the ‘not yet' we lapse into an other-worldly quietism (there's no point doing much now, because everything is future); but if we lean too hard on the present blessings of salvation, we find ourselves on the road to the prosperity gospel, or to its less aspirational twin, the social gospel. And we could go on. In each case, the answer is not to deny one side or the other, nor to sit on the fence in between, nor to seek to balance the two sides in a certain proportion, as if God were 73% sovereign and we were 27% responsible. In each case, it's a matter of giving full weight at the same time to two propositions that are both in themselves demonstrably true, even though from some perspectives they appear to be paradoxical or even contradictory. I can't help wondering why. Why, of all the religions and philosophies of the world, does Christianity uniquely and consistently strike this note. Why does it hold together so many apparent paradoxes, and precisely by doing so, explain and account for the reality of the world in such a beautiful and compelling way? My hunch is that somewhere down deep, it goes back to the doctrine of creation—and in particular creation ex nihilo. When God made the universe, he made something that was completely distinct from himself. The creation wasn't an emanation of his own being, nor did he make himself part of the creation. The world was made from nothing, as a reality that was both completely distinct from God, and yet also completely contingent upon him for its existence and life. The world only exists because God wanted it to, and wants it to. And yet it is not part of him; it has a life that is absolutely its own. I wonder if this first and most basic duality creates a kind of pattern that is expressed in all the others. We exist in this creation, and only know God because he reveals himself to us in the creation. And in every aspect of that revelation and at every point of it—past, present and future—God acts as he did at the beginning when he made everything. He remains transcendently separate, holy and sovereign over his creation, even as he is closely, lovingly and mightily active within it. And it all climaxes in the revelation of his Son, for whom and to whom the whole creation was made—the incarnate, crucified, resurrected Son who embodies in his own person not only the transcendent holy God, but the humanity that he has chosen to draw into fellowship with himself. Well, these are very deep waters, and although (as in all things) God hovers them, and brings order and life to them, I think that the only thing left to say has already been said by the apostle Paul:Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:33-36)PSThanks for the ongoing correspondence about church as ‘family' and as ‘enterprise'. It seems to have struck a chord with a number of people, especially in relation to the struggles of their own church to be the kind of family that is also outward-looking and evangelistic in character. I wrote this back to one correspondent, and I think it captures the heart of the issue: A healthy church has the gospel of Jesus Christ (i.e. Jesus himself) as the binding, nourishing centre of the family life, and as the motivation and basis for co-ordinated action together to bring his gospel to others. This is why churches that are not outward-looking and evangelistic also often feel a bit lacking in the family dimension as well. If Jesus and his gospel is really at the centre, it will generate not only a rich and true sense of brotherhood and sisterhood, but an impetus to lay down our lives for the lost, just like our Master.Does that sound right? Like to get The Payneful Truth regularly? It's easy …  A special thanks to David Hohne for his help with today's post. When I was groping about trying to figure out how the doctrine of creation related to the proliferation of paradoxes in Christianity, a little natter on the phone with David sorted me out. Thanks DH. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.twoways.news/subscribe

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So Aimee, do you always check your emails in the morning?Aimee: Probably. Probably. Recently, I'm trying to stop using my electronic devices so much. So I think in the morning, I need to do other things but very often, I will quickly scan my phone and check because my phone is also my alarm clock, so it's right there. It's too handy.Paul: Yeah. I'm always one that wake up—I don't know, I've got this really bad habit where I think something major has happened during the night. And so I wake up and I'm checking different websites and checking Facebook to see if there's any messages or any great news over the course of the night.Yeah, it's a really bad habit, you know. It starts to kind of dominate your life. Yeah, I think it's quite addictive things, isn't it?Aimee: Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot recently. And it's something I think that doesn't need to be in the morning routine so much. It's good to just get your head ready before you—your head and your body ready before you start thinking about checking emails and stuff.Paul: I agree. I heard somebody—there was a piece of advice, I can't remember where I heard it from. But it was just to check your emails twice a day. You know, you don't need to do more than that. Check once in the morning, once in the evening, that's it. Check your news websites, maybe twice a day rather than every 30 minutes or something.Aimee: Yeah, that's—Paul: Yeah. I think it requires discipline doesn't it?Aimee: It does.Paul: Yeah.Aimee: It's good advice but I don't know if it's very practical because if you're using a smartphone, which I do, then you're using it first, it's got so many different function and you need it for—need it, I guess is a loose term. But you use it for so many different things. So it's always there, you know. Always there.However, I did start reading a book the other day, so I'm trying to stop looking at my phone and start reading a book instead.Paul: Oh, good for you. Yeah.Aimee: Thanks.Paul: That's good move. Yeah, I should perhaps do that myself.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So Aimee, do you always check your emails in the morning?Aimee: Probably. Probably. Recently, I'm trying to stop using my electronic devices so much. So I think in the morning, I need to do other things but very often, I will quickly scan my phone and check because my phone is also my alarm clock, so it's right there. It's too handy.Paul: Yeah. I'm always one that wake up—I don't know, I've got this really bad habit where I think something major has happened during the night. And so I wake up and I'm checking different websites and checking Facebook to see if there's any messages or any great news over the course of the night.Yeah, it's a really bad habit, you know. It starts to kind of dominate your life. Yeah, I think it's quite addictive things, isn't it?Aimee: Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot recently. And it's something I think that doesn't need to be in the morning routine so much. It's good to just get your head ready before you—your head and your body ready before you start thinking about checking emails and stuff.Paul: I agree. I heard somebody—there was a piece of advice, I can't remember where I heard it from. But it was just to check your emails twice a day. You know, you don't need to do more than that. Check once in the morning, once in the evening, that's it. Check your news websites, maybe twice a day rather than every 30 minutes or something.Aimee: Yeah, that's—Paul: Yeah. I think it requires discipline doesn't it?Aimee: It does.Paul: Yeah.Aimee: It's good advice but I don't know if it's very practical because if you're using a smartphone, which I do, then you're using it first, it's got so many different function and you need it for—need it, I guess is a loose term. But you use it for so many different things. So it's always there, you know. Always there.However, I did start reading a book the other day, so I'm trying to stop looking at my phone and start reading a book instead.Paul: Oh, good for you. Yeah.Aimee: Thanks.Paul: That's good move. Yeah, I should perhaps do that myself.

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush, the leading recruitment automation platform. Max: Good morning, everybody and welcome to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast with max  from Talkpush. Today I'm excited to be welcoming Paul Noone, who is CEO for HireIQ and someone who is in technology. And I've, we both focus a lot of our energy on the call center and the BPO market and service this industry, which is always hungry for automation and innovation. So we both love this industry and we can exchange our thoughts on this topic.Paul, thank you so much for joining me on my new podcast. Paul: Hey, thanks Max, I'm thrilled to be here actually. Max: So our audience, some of them will recognize HireIQ. And some of them will probably recognize you, but they probably don't know the history of how you ended up starting this business, or how you ended up with HireIQ.Perhaps you could walk us through that journey. Paul: Yeah, I'd love to. HireIQ is an interesting technology and we're very focused on the call center. And because the call center has this outsourcing process that's associated with business process outsourcers.Most of the organizations don't realize that, while Fortune 500 organizations, anybody with a product or service has a requirement to support through call centers or through service locations, they also do a lot of outsourcing. So they're organizations like BPOs, the large ones in call centers are Teleperformance and Alorica and Atento and Sutherland and 24[7].And those are the organizations that we help with  in the talent acquisition, part of this, you know, max, you and I probably talked about this before, but recruitment is the term that we use. But we're in sort of a special place in recruitment. We're in the engagement with the candidates, the acquisition of all the data that we aggregate as much data as we can in a shorter period of time.And then we provide it to the recruiters in such a way that they can quickly make a decision, because we're talking about maybe 10 interviews for every hire, we're really known for our efficiency. And then we're also known for the AI associated with how we do that. How do we tell whether a candidate it's going to be particularly good at this particular role in collections or in sales? Or in support?We do a whole lot with that. I actually got here about six years ago through the investors. So I had just, I was working with another technology company on disaster relief, and just sort of an interesting aside, Max, we had built a product around disaster resource management and that's where these large scales or, when you guys experienced the typhoons and we have the hurricane season from June through November and, being able, you know, the shift in technology, the shift to phones, being able to locate all of the things that you need when a disaster strikes is a really interesting use case.So we had gone pretty deep into that and acquired some large customers, the U.S Red Cross, but we were looking to move from the Red Cross division of emergency management and we were looking for additional investment. So I was on sort of a roadshow talking to investors and ultimately a lot of people made the decision that it, and it's a function of that market. But, without disasters, if you have a good year, meaning no disasters, you're getting no money into that particular part, the Red Cross every now and then they literally go almost to zero. So they actually need engineering, Max: Pure disasters once in a while. Paul: And oddly, when you're in that business, you start to hope for bad things to happen. So there was something wrong, but the investors didn't buy. Max: I think it's not just the disaster people. I have a feeling that a certain class of politicians also relying on a good disaster once in a while. Paul: Well, so there's politics in there, the weird thing about funding ,and how funding shifts, and things like that.I think that actually is what scared investors away, Max, and it's a shame in some ways. That what we were doing was, you know, enabling, with the Red Cross, for example, we found a billion dollars worth of resources that had been sort of lost, and it hadn't literally been lost. It was in firehouses and it was in other locations.And that sounds like an inventory management issue, but it's not when something bad happens in one part of the state. And then you realize that through a quick app, you can find it. Where everything is: shovels clubs, protective eyewear, and N95 masks, for example. Imagine that you put in an application, you find a billion dollars worth of resources, really through crowdsourcing your own people.Anyway, that app is lovely but the investors didn't think it was an investable market at the time. And so I just finished this and I had met with the investors here and I called them back and said, you know, so we'll probably shut this down. And they said, great, because we have something we'd love to share with you.And they brought me into HireIQ. I have a background in call centers. I was with Genesis as they were starting out on sort of the part of the first team. I want to say pre-revenue, but I want to say Genesis is a $2 billion organization right now, 20 years ago when I was with them we had less than $10 million in revenue. So building that to a public company and then moving on, but coming here was lovely in that the technology was solid. But it was  a function of focus. We were trying to do too much. By focusing on call centers and BPOs in particular, we ended up, turning into, from being a typical technology company where we might be losing money quarter after quarter to being one that was profitable, really understood what we were doing and then have been very zeroed in on that use case around language proficiency, around understanding our customer's needs and really, more than anything else, making sure that they're succeeding.So closing that loop and making sure that they succeed. Max: Your star product is the product called Audiolytics? Paul: Well, so Audiolytics is really the technology that underlies the audio processing that we do. So at the heart of what we're doing is, the origin story really comes around. While I submit my resume in a recruiting, in an interview process, what that does is it strips out my personality and my voice.It strips out the narrative. I moved from the disaster resource management effort into HireIQ, why did that happen? All of those things that you get to tell people in an interview process. So the origin story is really about how do we add a narrative to what's a two dimensional piece of paper that's supposed to represent me.And so with that, we started to create a platform that would say not only here's the resume and here's some qualifiers about me, but here's my voice. Max: It used to upset me so much when I started on my career and I would go and socialize, go to a bar anywhere and someone would ask me, so what do you do?And, you know, I didn't want to tell them my job title and the company I worked for, because I didn't feel like it represented anything about me. And it would always come up with some weird answer I would say, oh, what do I do? You know, I roller skate or, you know, or something, just so that I could come out and shine and that wasn't a social environment in a work and job search context.Also, what do you do? Should be the first question or rather who are you? rather than a resume. Paul: Tell me about your expense in this particular business is an open ended question that a lot of our customers ask, but asking open ended questions, which is an old interviewing technique and a valuable one really allows people to tell them more. To talk to the narrative. Tell me about your experience in this particular world. Tell me about your understanding of customer support. Tell me your understanding. Tell me about an experience that you had with your boss that may be positive or negative, but being able to do that and being able to do it asynchronously when, you know, we could collect lots and lots of those became really the most important thing.But Audiolytics is actually the parsing of that. The audio data in order to get a really good and different understanding. So Max, what it doesn't do, is it doesn't convert voice to text and then parse it that way. But, it literally is looking for tone. So it's in these frames of voice, it's saying that's a positive, that's a negative, that's a happy emotion, that's a sad emotion. We're looking for things that we know are important for a good employee, but are particularly important when you're dealing with call center agents. That they're engaged, they're alert. They're more active than passive. They're not expressing boredom. Which is really interesting when you can pick up boredom because when a recruiter gets this information, they're going to see an Audiolytics score that says, you know, this person is probably not someone you want to spend a lot of time with.And I would say more than anything else we're not dispositioning customers. What we're doing our best to do is to give them an idea of priority. Talk to Max. He's got a great score. He's good with language. He's got good scores with data entry and even chat. Max: I didn't know that your technology was able to detect boredom. That's remarkable. Would it be influenced by geography and how do you factor that in? Because you live in Atlanta, people are supposed to speak a little bit more slowly, perhaps have a drawl. You don't, but nonetheless, you know, would the software, not pick up on the intonation and think maybe somebody from the South is bored?Paul: So it's really interesting. What you're doing is, so engagement doesn't necessarily have anything to do with dialect. And in fact, the tool itself is just sort of mentioned there's no conversion. It's listening for something that would be appropriate for the cohort of folks who are taking it ,interestingly enough.It's actually self adapting, because the same tool is used for engineers and salespeople and support people — all should have a different dynamic in their voice. And so it actually has to adjust based on the people who are taking the interview. The people who are successful in expressing themselves in that interview, as well as the questions.The questions and the people are really the dynamic that you're looking for, but boredom might be expressed differently by an engineer, or by somebody from, a Latin expression. But, the cohort itself helps to define that. And so ultimately you have not only our recommendation, but you also have the answer.So what's interesting about it is how closely we track to what a good recruiter would do. In the initial testing, after we did the machine learning on it. So can we in fact pick these up at a high rate? So can we, in fact, identify that Max is more happy than sad? Can we identify that when he's taking this test he's more bored? When we do that, we match Max almost 97% against a recruiter who would be listening to those particular things. So imagine that the technology itself is so wildly accurate in a lot of ways. But you know, to that end, that's what Audiolytics does. We're really sort of the platform is HireIQ, and it's a whole series of ways to basically create a recipe of assessments to understand more about you more about whoever you're interviewing — at speed. So we're trying to get the recruiting experience to be three, three and a half minutes. So you don't spend a lot of time with these individuals unless you're really digging in on them. And then with the candidate experience should be less than 20 minutes.Max: So the questions are not picked from a standard list. Since you're working with open answers, you don't have to use the same questions with every customer. Paul: No, in fact, they're different in virtually every customer.  There are some that seem to be universal people do want, need, to understand what your experience has been with customer support.So, if you're going to be in that customer support role, you're going to have to have some experience in sales, right? That has come up. Max: Yes. For me, it's like a yes or no answer. Have you worked in this industry before? That's usually how they ask that question in a chatbot environment. Paul: So that would be a bad question for us.What we're always going to do is ask a question that asks you to elaborate on something because we do in fact, need enough content to understand the profile. We need to have enough of Max telling us about Max to understand where Max's orientation is in terms of sharing, communicating. For the question, is he too verbose? Meaning he may be struggling with answering a particular question and trying to overanswer a question, or is it too short, meaning maybe he doesn't have the skills to think through and is that enough for this particular customer? So there are all kinds of metrics, there are cohort determined, sort of thresholds. It's really fascinating. And now we've done about, you know, close to 5 million interviews with it. So we have a really good base of understanding of how effective it is when matched with outcome data.So it's really fun stuff. Max: Does it replace, let's say the first phone call? I mean, if you're going to look at the standard recruitment process to hire it replaces the first phone call. Paul: So really what it's designed to do is give you a complete understanding. So we have customers who might do it for the engaged at the front end.We have customers for who it represents the entire interview process. So  once they've engaged, they've completed it. They have the scores, they meet thresholds. Then it's appropriate literally for the recruiter when they engage with them to close them.  You've probably experienced this, particularly with BPOs is that there's a real machine, there's a supply chain and with the attrition rates that exist, what you're working your best to do is fill training classes. And what we're doing, of course, is trying to identify people who are going not only achieve the right goals, the metrics that they're looking for, but we're also looking for folks who have an orientation, which would suggest they're going to stay longer.So that's one thing that we're doing, but because there's such a speed element, to this we are really careful about, trying to do as much as we can in a shorter period of time, giving you a complete understanding so that that particular recruiter can sell when appropriate and be restrained also when appropriate.So somebody does, you know, in the U S we have to answer, we have to give everybody the same interview experience. So that means that if you answer the first question horribly, Max, I still have to give you an opportunity with the next 7 questions I'm supposed to ask in an interview. It's a fair interviewing process, even if you disqualief yourself right out of the gate.And so one of the things about being able to acquire this information, offline and, online, as opposed to in front of somebody, it gives that particular person, the ability to advance quickly through that particular candidate and prioritize who to sell and who to, again, disengage with.Max: I understand the benefit for the candidates to do a short interview and a short assessment and get through those things faster, but it sounds like it's more than just, you know, I mean are you doing it because you get dropouts when ,people are held up more than five minutes? Or is it at the request of your customers? What's the driving force behind keeping it just two or three minutes long?Paul: Oh, I'm sorry. So the interview itself for the candidate will be as much as 20 minutes, but we're trying to keep it under 20 minutes, really because there's a falloff Max. 20 is about the cutoff. If you've seen some of the older, you know, The 1950 based assessments that had a lot of triangulation, right.You're asked one question one way and then seven questions later, you're getting the same question phrased differently in order to validate that the first question was like the second question and your answer was consistent throughout. And if you know that that's going to be an hour and a half, you really start to wonder, is there an easier way to get a job? For this wage.. Max: But time is speeding up, right? People have a lot shorter attention spans. They have multiple conversations going on asynchronously with five friends at the time. And so I expect that the 20 minutes would already be beyond the comfort zone for some people who are remote.Paul: It's very, very close. And you see what we're trying to do. It answers that question: is it enough? What we're trying to do is the open ended questions seem very much like what a typical interview would be. So tell me about yourself. Tell me about an experience that you had. What would your last employer say about you?Those kinds of open ended questions are the things that seem conversational. And allow you to expand upon yourself, but in fact are dense with data for us to help make a decision. And so the tone, the tempo, and in fact, the content is even important, but only when you know that that petitioner has an alertness and an engagement that pleasantness that you're looking for now go back and listen to those questions.Is there even more data that we can mine there? And that's why on average, it's about three and a half minutes. Because some you're just going through they didn't meet any of my language proficiency thresholds or whatever. And now we can spend a little bit more time with the particular person that I want to hire.And that would extend, you know, that's when you advance candidates and things like that, but it really is. I agree with you. I think what you're asking in that question is how do you give the candidate an opportunity to advance themselves, to tell their story? And not be too efficient in the process, that would eliminate me being able to tell enough about me. And so I think this is sort of the best of both worlds. Max: Yeah. I get the sense that 20 minutes would be annoying if I'm sitting at home and I'm applying to 10 different jobs, but yeah. If I had a sense that this company could be a fit, they are interested in me, then, yeah. 20 minutes is no problem, easy. And certainly easier than traveling physically to sites. So, have you seen the same thing as we have at Talkpush over the last few months? We've seen an increase in the volume of job seekers, an increase in volume of candidates. And how has that played out for the rest of the recruitment funnel?Is it,  becoming a problem where it just means we have too many candidates and not enough jobs to offer? What kind of dynamics does that create for your business? Paul: Well, I think for both of us, what I would say is: volume is important because volume breaks process. The more, you know, we got to a point in the U.S, our unemployment rate was down to 3%, you know, at times probably lower than that in certain places.So it was in fact hard to get enough people to interview, you know, recruiters spent most of their time trying to pull people out of other companies. And then in a matter of weeks, as we all know, it went from, you know, less than 3% too, you know, a lot. And then we're talking about 52 million people at its height, out of work needing to quarantine and work from home. So all of a sudden the opportunity to interview was greater, but the importance of identifying somebody who was really looking for that job and really engaged and would do a good job with both the hard skills and the engagement that we're looking for.What everybody's looking for, to be committed to that particular role, over the long term that became even more important. So a 100%, I agree with you that the volumes changed. And I would say, you know, in the first, because of the way we're set up and because of the way people leverage boards, that we might've seen a doubling in the first month, which probably created some concern on our part. There was actually a cost every time somebody does an interview with HireIQ, rather than it being a, you know, we do a lot of processing…Max: and because we're doing processing servers, AWS, bills go off, Google bills, come up. I had all of that happen as well. Paul: Yeah. So, that sort of evened out a little bit. And while I would say we're up. We're also going into that season, which is a ramp, right? So we're looking for a lot of holiday seasonal workers right now. So I would say we're probably, closer to where we were maybe a little bit higher, but not as dramatically higher as we saw in the first quarter after the quarantining.And we're seeing some alleviation of that. I think we're seeing some go back to physical work, but, the other part, Max's you may have an opinion on this as well, is that I don't know that a lot of people were willing to let go of their jobs. So are people artificially staying where they were highly mobile in the first quarter? All of a sudden now they're thinking, you know, it may not be as easy to get a job in the next place. So, there may be a false sense of  retention taking place at the same time. Max: Well, yeah, I guess when things heat up again, we'll see whether all those new hires in the BPO sector from the last six months, are meant to stay in those industries.I guess it really depends whether they like working from home. If they like putting on a headset and getting in front of a camera, and working on Slack, maybe it'll work out and maybe they won't to go back into the field. Like, I do not have a crystal ball for that, but, I think that some companies are making a shift towards hire anywhere and opening the talent pool so much that they're going to be able to build a very unique group of people which have defining traits, which if you remove the geographical constraints and you say, now I can have such a broader group to choose from. Then you can create new constraints.You can say, I only want people that think that way, or that have this hobby or that are very meticulous or, you know, you can be very specific and that could create, you know, some very bizarre groups of people and  that could give the economy some lift perhaps.Paul: So Max, this is an interesting thing. I absolutely loved the whole train of thought. So I have  a couple of data points on this. I had a company at one point in which I did a lot. The company had lots and lots of training, and we started to do a model, which we were trained from anywhere this go to meeting in a WebEx type zoom.It was technology, but we were sharing screens. Let's configure it this way. Now this is how you do this. This is how you do that. And one of my employees came to me and said, do you mind if I do some work? So his passion, interestingly enough, was kimonos. So he did he sold, these beautiful kimonos. He invested in them. And what he wanted to do was be able to go to these shows in Asia where all of the best would be there, he'd be able to sell his kimonos. They'd also be commercial. I said, Sam, Do you think I care where you go to a meeting or a virtual training takes place, go do what you want to do.And by the way, then being skewed 13 hours is in your best interest. Now go spend a day there and carve out the two hours you need for that particular training. Just make sure that it doesn't affect your ability to do that particular piece of work, but I just so loved this and that whole concept of displacement.If we can, and  it's happening more and more in some of our customers. Assurion one of the groups that I heard speak recently, they're doing gig work now, Max, meaning you can opt in to when you're available, you know, you've got to schedule, but sometimes it's via social media, they'll say we've got surge paying.You've got a surge wage based on how much people, how much traffic we're going to have, you know, based on, on questions, we need to answer about the Assurion products. That to me, being able to opt in, to be able to do what you're passionate about and have that feed your work day is something that I think is really important.And I think that's where you get energy, you get energy by, you know, middle of the day being able to take, you know, take a swim in a pool. I get energy. I did something recently where I went out and I hit golf balls. First time since March, I used to play golf all the time. I'd say 10 years ago.I went out and, Max, doing something physical, like that, changed, I swear it changed my brain chemistry. So I think this whole concept of displacement is one of those things that's also going to enable people to do and maintain their passions. And because of that, we may be in, you know what we're doing with call centers and delivering work to location. I literally think that's the future. I don't think  the future  like I thought the future was cell phones. As soon as you don't physically have to go pick up those yellow slips, you don't have to answer a physical phone. You don't have an extension that's tied to a location. God, the world changes and in such a great way.Max: Yeah, you were telling me how you got to enjoy more time with your family in recent weeks. Somebody was telling me recently, an article about this reverse migration, which is happening, where people are leaving the cities, and going back to where they came from, to their hometown because of this pandemic and supported through the technologies of remote work. We are seeing basically these shifts happening everywhere and people spending more time with our family. So, on a bizarre way, family values, family traditions  we'll see a resurgence as a response to this crisis.Paul: Well, I don't want to be overly optimistic. Look, I think everybody's been through a trauma. And so, one of the things that I'm doing as a CEO, I'm sure you're doing it is giving people some room. Right? I want people to make sure that they... look, I have an employee who has three kids at home, all under the age of 10, who she's starting zoom meetings with, in three different rooms for children.There's a kindergarten class going on. There's a second grade craft class. There's a third grade class, all her room, she and her husband are working at the same time. It is insane what we're piling on people at the same time.Max: And the bandwidth. Paul: That's exactly right. So that's the other thing right? We didn't talk about this, but it's interesting. I read an article last night about why this is different. And this particular article was why New York city would never be the same. Because just as you said, there's an exit, maybe a million people have left New York city. The rates, the rental rates, the buildings that are empty relative to where they were.But, we saw something like this in 2001, with 911, we saw something, you know, we've had these, national crises in the U.S. 2008. And the contention was why this is different than those other times is because bandwidth exists right now. Bandwidth exists like it's never existed before.So now you have private equity guys that don't physically have to be in New York City, because it doesn't matter that you're physically there to run into somebody because that person may in fact not be there. So when people were telling me, and in fact, during this period, they said, they'd be traveling. I said, well, that's good that you're traveling. Are people willing to meet with you? Which is the other side of the equation, right? It's one thing for you to be willing. It's a second part altogether once you land in a city, are people willing  to meet with you? That will change. There's no question, but, I think some of the positive of that and believe me, I'm sure if you're a real estate magnet in New York city, you're super concerned about this. But, I think the freedoms that it provides for individuals is particularly engaging. It's an interesting thought. Let's put it that way. Max: Oh, if you're, if you're a real estate magnet in the suburbs, well, you're doing well. Anyway, we're going to a more realistic conversation because that will alienate my audience 100%. Paul: But the other part to that, but I would say, listen,  the thing that I get excited about is the options it provides. The reality is I think so you can follow those kinds of things in any direction.The reality is we need human interaction. You and I like to do what we do. I want to meet you. I want to run into you, I want to see you compete at a technology showcase. Those kinds of things stimulate me. So I don't think there's any chance that we don't go back to some more normalcy and sooner than later, more 2021.But I think taking a moment and understanding the lack of distraction. Which really is the way I described it early in this was, there was no sports. There were no, you know, the activities themselves that would typically take me off center or off of focus were gone. And so now I had family to focus on.Now I had what's next for the business. Now I had what's best. So I think the lack of distraction helps us to focus. Max: Yes. I see. I think that you were talking before we started the interview about the fact that, you're going to look for a different type of worker the call center worker working from home needs to be self motivated, autonomous and so on.If someone is now at home unemployed and is able to find, well, by force needs to find employment of that sort and then by force needs to build certain life habits around that. And then actually it gets through it and realizes, oh, this works. I can put in 5- 10 hours of uninterrupted work in a day if need be.And now you've unlocked something in him or her that they can carry for the rest of their lives, potentially that sense of autonomy and that ability to manage your day. That becomes something you can keep Paul: It's a freedom and it's magnificent. So rather than your work being dependent on your relationship with your employer or your boss in front of you, you're focused on becoming valuable, is your ticket to the next role that you have or greater responsibility or in frankly being as engaged in your passions and things outside of work could in fact, energize that in a way that we might not be able to today. I promise you, nobody's complaining about the lack of traffic.Max: Well, one thing, one thing I do complain... I still hear some people ask me, Max, you've got so much experience working with remote teams, distributed teams. How do you check on them? And like you just totally missed it. You don't. You're rethinking about what your job is as manager. But that question still comes up so often.Paul: Here's how I keep in touch with them. I engage with them on how do we make what you're working on better? How can I help? And then they'll tell me. Max: Yeah,  there are certainly a few ways.I'm sure some, some of my employees will listen in and think that's too engaging. But, it's great to see how your business has evolved over the years. I hope that we can be part of this bright future. And have more of these partnerships as we've had with some of our customers where they integrate your assessment platform with our, conversational chatbots and engagements to take care of the whole workflow.So if anybody's listening you want to match our two technologies. They work very well together and thank you very much, Paul, for joining me today. Paul: Maxm I love it. And I appreciate  your engaging in conversation with this. I love Talkpush, I always have, and I love in particular the fact that you're doing what many other people would be required to do.So being able to get out in front. Engage those people to make sure that they stay in touch and then keep that information about them. Just, you know, in a way that really becomes a system of record for employment. So, we're thrilled to be working with you. Thank you very much for your time today. And, we're partners, so anything that we can do to help you we're available.Max: Thanks. Paul, we'll both continue burning resumes and replacing them with conversation. Paul: There's a whole discussion about bias and all of the other things that we really should talk about it some time. But, I think the answer is engagement and we're both doing everything we can to enlighten people about who they're talking to and why they'd be a good fit.Okay. We've got the topic for our next interview, it will be about bias. Maybe we'll wait a few months for that one. Paul: And so we'll give people some time.Max: And the topic may be a little bit less dangerous in a few months time. Paul: Yeah. I think there'll be more light at that point.Max:  Great. Thanks Paul. TPaul: Thank you, max. That was Paul Noone from HireIQ, a company, which has figured out how to measure the empathy, warmth, and care of a voice and allows employers in the call center industry to evaluate those voices in a scalable way. If you liked the interview and you'd like to hear more about some of the movers and shakers from the high volume recruitment industry, please subscribe to our podcast and share with your friends.

Some highlights of the show include: The company's cloud native journey, which accelerated with the acquisition of Uswitch.  How the company assessed risk prior to their migration, and why they ultimately decided the task was worth the gamble. Uswitch's transformation into a profitable company resulting from their cloud native migration. The role that multidisciplinary, collaborative teams played in solving problems and moving projects forward. Paul also offers commentary on some of the tensions that resulted between different teams. Key influencing factors that caused the company to adopt containerization and Kubernetes. Paul goes into detail about their migration to Kubernetes, and the problems that it addressed.  Paul's thoughts on management and prioritization as CTO. He also explains his favorite engineering tool, which may come as a surprise.  Links: RVU Website: https://www.rvu.co.uk/ Uswitch Website: https://www.uswitch.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pingles GitHub: https://github.com/pingles TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native podcast, where we explore how end users talk and think about the transition to Kubernetes and cloud-native architectures.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm your host, Emily Omier, and today I am chatting with Paul Ingles. Paul, thank you so much for joining me.Paul: Thank you for having me.Emily: Could you just introduce yourself: where do you work? What do you do? And include, sort of, some specifics. We all have a job title, but it doesn't always reflect what our actual day-to-day is.Paul: I am the CTO at a company called RVU in London. We run a couple of reasonably big-ish price comparison, aggregator type sites. So, we help consumers figure out and compare prices on broadband products, mobile phones, energy—so in the UK, energy is something which is provided through a bunch of different private companies, so you've got a fair amount of choice on kind of that thing. So, we tried to make it easier and simpler for people to make better decisions on the household choices that they have. I've been there for about 10 years, so I've had a few different roles. So, as CTO now, I sit on the exec team and try to help inform the business and technology strategy. But I've come through a bunch of teams. So, I've worked on some of the early energy price comparison stuff, some data infrastructure work a while ago, and then some underlying DevOps type automation and Kubernetes work a couple of years ago.Emily: So, when you get in to work in the morning, what types of things are usually on your plate?Paul: So, I keep a journal. I use bullet journalling quite extensively. So, I try to track everything that I've got to keep on top of. Generally, what I would try to do each day is catch up with anybody that I specifically need to follow up with. So, at the start of the week, I make a list of every day, and then I also keep a separate column for just general priorities. So, things that are particularly important for the week, themes of work going on, like, technology changes, or things that we're trying to launch, et cetera. And then I will prioritize speaking to people based on those things. So, I'll try and make sure that I'm focusing on the most important thing. I do a weekly meeting with the team. So, we have a few directors that look after different aspects of the business, and so we do a weekly meeting to just run through everything that's going on and sharing the problems. We use the three P's model: so, sharing progress problems and plans. And we use that to try and steer on what we do. And we also look at some other team health metrics. Yeah, it's interesting actually. I think when I switched from working in one of the teams to being in the CTO role, things change quite substantially. That list of things that I had to care about increase hugely, to the point where it far exceeded how much time I had to spend on anything. So, nowadays, I find that I'm much more likely for some things to drop off. And so it's unfortunate, and you can't please everybody, so you just have to say, “I'm really sorry, but this thing is not high on the list of priorities, so I can't spend any time on it this week, but if it's still a problem in a couple of weeks time, then we'll come back to it.” But yeah, it can vary quite a lot.Emily: Hmm, interesting. I might ask you more questions about that later. For now, let's sort of dive into the cloud-native journey. What made RVU decide that containerization was a good idea and that Kubernetes was a good idea? What were the motivations and who was pushing for it?Paul: That's a really good question. So, I got involved about 10 years ago. So, I worked for a search marketing startup that was in London called Forward Internet Group, and they acquired USwitch in 2010. And prior to working at Forward, I'd worked as a consultant at ThoughtWorks in London, so I spent a lot of time working in banks on continuous delivery and things like that. And so when Uswitch came along, there were a few issues around the software release process. Although there was a ton of automation, it was still quite slow to actually get releases out. We were only doing a release every fortnight. And we also had a few issues with the scalability of data. So, it was a monolithic Windows Microsoft stack. So, there was SQL Server databases, and .NET app servers, and things like that. And our traffic can be quite spiky, so when companies are in the news, or there's policy changes and things like that, we would suddenly get an increase in traffic, and the Microsoft solution would just generally kind of fall apart as soon as we hit some kind of threshold. So, I got involved, partly to try and improve some of the automation and release practices because at the search start-up, we were releasing experiments every couple of hours, even. And so we wanted to try and take a bit of that ethos over to Uswitch, and also to try and solve some of the data scalability and system scalability problems. And when we got started doing that, a lot of it was—so that was in the early heyday of AWS, so this was about 2008, that I was at the search startup. And we were used to using EC2 to try and spin up Hadoop clusters and a few other bits and pieces that we were playing around with. And when we acquired Uswitch, we felt like it was quickest for us to just create a different environment, stick it under the load balancer so end users wouldn't realize that some requests was being served off of the AWS infrastructure instead, and then just gradually go from there. We found that that was just the fastest way to move. So, I think it was interesting, and it was both a deliberate move, but it was also I think the degree to which we followed through on it, I don't think we'd really anticipated quite how quickly we would shift everything. And so when Forward made the acquisition, I joined summer of 2010, and myself and a colleague wrote a little two-pager on, here are the problems we see, here are the things that we think we can help with and the ways that technology approach that we'd applied at Forward would carry across, and what benefits we thought it would bring. Unfortunately because Forward was a privately held business—we were relatively small but profitable—and the owner of that business was quite risk-affine. He was quite keen on playing blackjack and other stuff. So, he was pretty happy with talking about probabilities of success.And so we just said, we think there's a future in it if we can get the wheels turning a bit better. And he was up for it. He backed us and we just took it from there. And so we replaced everything from self-hosted physical infrastructure running on top of .NET to all AWS hosted, running a mix of Ruby, and Closure, and other bits and pieces in about two years. And that's just continued from there. So, the move to Kubernetes was a relatively recent one; that was only within the last—I say ‘recent.' it was about two years ago, we started moving things in earnest. And then you asked what was the rationale for switching to Kubernetes—Emily: Let me first ask you, when you were talking with the owner, what were the odds that you gave him for success?Paul: [laughs]. That's a good question. I actually don't know. I think we always knew that there was a big impact to be had. I don't think we knew the scale of the upside. So, I don't think we—I mean, at the time, Uswitch was just about breaking even, so we didn't realize that there was an opportunity to radically change that. I think we underestimated how long it would take to do. So, I think we'd originally thought that we could replace, I think maybe most of the stuff that we needed replaced within six months. We had an early prototype out within two weeks, two or three weeks because we'd always placed a big emphasis on releasing early, experimenting, iterative delivery, A/B testing, that kind of thing. So, I think it was almost like that middle term that was the harder piece. And there was definitely a point where… I don't know, I think it was this classic situation of pulling on a ball of string where it was like, what wanted to do was to focus on improving the end-user experience because our original belief was that, aside from the scalability issues, that the existing site just didn't solve the problem sufficiently well, that it needed an overhaul to simplify the journeys, and simplify the process, and improve the experience for people. We were focusing on that and we didn't want to get drawn into replacing a lot of the back office and integration type systems partly because there was a lot of complexity there. But also because you then have to engage with QA environments, and test environments, and sign-offs with the various people that we integrate with. But it was, as I said, it was this kind of tugging on a ball of string where every improvement that we made in the end-user experience—so we would increase conversion rate by 10 percent but through doing that, we would introduce downstream error in the ways that those systems would integrate, and so we gradually just ended up having to pull in slightly more and more pieces to make it work. I don't think we ever gave odds of success. I think we underestimated how long that middle piece would take. I don't think we really anticipated the degree of upside that we would get as a consequence, through nothing other than just making releases quicker, being able to test and move faster, and focusing on end-user experience was definitely the right thing to focus on.Emily: Do you think though, that everybody perceived it as a risk? I'm just asking because you mentioned the blackjack, was this a risk that could fail?Paul: Well, I think the interesting thing about it was that we knew it was the right thing to do. So, again, I think our experience as consultants at ThoughtWorks was on applying continuous delivery, what we would today call DevOps, applying those practices to software delivery. And so we'd worked on systems where there weren't continuous integration servers and where people weren't releasing every day, and then we'd worked in environments where we were releasing every couple of hours, and we were very quickly able to hone in on what worked and discard things that didn't. And so I think because we've been able to demonstrate that success within the search business, I think that carried a great deal of trust. And so when it came to talking about things we could potentially do, we were totally convinced that there were things that we could improve. I think it was a combination of, there was a ton of potential, we knew that there was a new confluence of technologies and approaches that could be successful if we were able to just start over. And then I think also probably a healthy degree of, like, naive, probably overconfidence in what we could do that we would just throw ourselves into it. So, it's hard work, but yeah, it was ultimately highly successful. So, it's something I'm exceedingly proud of today.Emily: You said something really interesting, which is that Uswitch was barely profitable. And if I understand correctly, that changed for the better. Can you talk about how this is related?Paul: Yeah, sure. I think the interesting thing about it was that we knew that there was something we could do better, but we weren't sure what it was. And so the focus was always on being able to release as frequently as we possibly could to try and understand what that was, as well as trying to just simplify and pay back some of the technical debt. Well, so, trying to overcome some of the artificial constraints that existed because of the technology choices that people have made—perfectly decent decisions on, back in the day, but platforms like AWS offered better alternatives, now. So, we just focused on being able to deliver iteratively, and just keep focusing on continual improvement, releasing, understanding what the problems were, and then getting rid of those little niggly things. The manager I had at Forward was this super—I don't know, he just had the perfect ethos, and he was driven—so we were a team that were focused on doing daily experiments. And so we would rely on data on our spend and data on our revenue. And that would come in on a daily cycle. So, a lot of the rhythm of the team was driven off of that cycle. And so as we could run experiments and measure their profitability, we could then inform what we would do on the day. And so, we have a handful of long-running technology things that we were doing, and then we would also have other tactical things that he would have ideas on, he would have some hypothesis of, well, “Maybe this is the reason that this is happening, let's come up with a test that we can use to try and figure out whether that's true.” We would build something quickly to throw it together to help us either disprove it or support it, and we would put it live, see what happened, and then move on to the next thing. And so I think a lot of the—what we wanted to do is to instill a bit of that environment in Uswitch. And so a lot of it was being able to release quickly, making sure that people had good data in front of them. I mean, even tools like Google Analytics were something which we were quite au fait with using but didn't have broad adoption at the time. And so we were using that to look at site behavior and what was going on and reason about what was happening. So, we just tried to make sure that people were directly using that, rather than just making changes on a longer cycle without data at all.Emily: And can you describe how you were working with the business side, and how you were communicating, what the sort of working relationship was like? If there was any misunderstandings on either side.Paul: Yeah, it's a good question. So, when I started at Uswitch, the organizational structure was, I guess, relatively classical. So, you had a pooled engineering team. So, it was a monolithic system, deployed onto physical infrastructure. So, there was an engineering team, there was an operations team, and then there were a handful of people that were business specific in the different markets that we operated in. So, there was a couple of people that focused on, like, the credit card market; a couple of people that focused on energy, for example. And, I used to call it the stand-up swarm: so, in the morning, we would sit on our desks and you would see almost the entire office moved from the different card walls that were based around the office. Although there was a high degree of interaction between the business stakeholders, the engineers, designers, and other people, it always felt slightly weird that you would have almost all of the company interested in almost everything that was going on, and so I think the intuition we had was that a lot of the ways that we would think about structuring software around loosely-coupled but highly cohesive, those same principles should or could apply to the organization itself. And so what we tried to do is to make sure that we had multidisciplinary teams that had the people in them to do the work. So, for the early days of the energy work, there was only a couple of us that were in it. So, we had a couple of engineers, and we had a lady called Emma, who was the product owner. She used to work in the production operations team, so she used to be focused on data entry from the products that different energy providers would send us, but she had the strongest insight into the domain problem, what problem consumers were trying to overcome, and what ways that we could react to it. And so, when we got involved, she had a couple of ideas that she'd been trying to get traction on, that she'd been unable to. And so what we—we had a, I don't know, probably a, I think a half-day session in an office. So, we took over the boardroom at the office and just said, “Look, we could really do with a separate space away from everybody to be able to focus on it. And we just want to prove something out for a couple of weeks. And we want to make sure that we've got space for people to focus.” And so we had a half-day in there, we had a conversation about, “Okay, well, what's the problem? What's the technical complexity of going after any of these things?” And there's a few nuances, too. Like, if you choose option A, then we have to get all of the historical information around it, as well as the current products and market. Whereas if we choose option B, then we can simplify it down, and we don't need to do all of that work, and we can try and experiment with something sooner. So, we wanted it to be as collaborative as possible because we knew that the way that we would be successful is by trying to execute on ideas faster than we'd been able to before. And at the same time, we also wanted to make sure that there was a feeling of momentum and that we would—I think there was probably a healthy degree of slight overconfidence, but we were also very keen to be able to show off what we could do. And so we genuinely wanted to try and improve the environment for people so that we could focus on solving problems quicker, trying out more experiments, being less hung up on whether it was absolutely the right thing to do, and instead just focus on testing it. So, were there tensions? I think there were definitely tensions; I don't think there weren't tensions so much on the technical side; we were very lucky that most of the engineers that already worked there were quite keen on doing something different, and so we would have conversations with them and just say, “Look, we'll try everything we can to try and remove as many of the constraints that exist today.” I think a lot of the disagreement or tension was whether or not it was the right problem to be going after. So, again, the search business that we worked in was doing a decent amount of money for the number of people that were there, and we knew there was a problem we could fix, but we didn't know how much runway it would have. And so there was a lot of tension on whether we should be pulling people into focusing on extending the search business, or whether we needed to focus on fixing Uswitch. So, there was a fair amount of back and forth about whether or not we needed to move people from one part of the business to another and that kind of thing.Emily: Let's talk a little bit about Kubernetes, and how Uswitch decided to use Kubernetes, what problem it solved, and who was behind the decision, who was really making the push.Paul: Yeah, interesting. So, I think containers was something that we'd been experimenting with for a little while. So, as I think a lot of the culture was, we were quite risk-affine. So, we were quite keen to be trying out new technologies, and we'd been using modern languages and platforms like Closure since the early days of them being available. We'd been playing around with containers for a while, and I think we knew there was something in it, but we weren't quite sure what it was. So, I think, although we were playing around with it quite early, I think we were quite slow to choose one platform or another. I think in the end, we—in the intervening period, I guess, between when we went from the more classical way of running Puppet across a bunch of EC2 instances that run a version of your application, the next step after that was switching over to using ECS. So, Amazon's container service. And I guess the thing that prompted a bit more curiosity into Kubernetes was that—I forgot the projects I was working on, but I was working on a team for a little while, and then I switched to go do something else. And I needed to put a new service up, and rather than just doing the thing that I knew, I thought, “Well, I'll go talk to the other teams.” I'll talk to some other people around the company, and find out what's the way that I ought to be doing this today, and there was a lot of work around standardizing the way that you would stand up an ECS cluster. But I think even then, it always felt like we were sharing things in the wrong way. So, if you were working on a team, you had to understand a great deal of Amazon to be able to make progress. And so, back when I got started at Uswitch, when I talk about doing the work about the energy migration, AWS at the time really only offered EC2, load balancers, firewalling, and then eventually relational databases, and so back then the amounts of complexity to stand up something was relatively small. And then come to a couple of years ago. You have to appreciate and understand routing tables, VPCs, the security rules that would permit traffic to flow between those, it was one of those—it was just relatively non-trivial to do something that was so core to what we needed to be able to do. And I think the thing that prompted Kubernetes was that, on the Kubernetes project side, we'd seen a gradual growth and evolution of the concepts, and abstractions, and APIs that it offered. And so there was a differentiation between ECS or—I actually forget what CoreOS's equivalent was. I think maybe it was just called CoreOS. But there are a few alternative offerings for running containerized, clustered services, and Kubernetes seems to take a slightly different approach that it was more focused on end-user abstractions. So, you had a notion of making a deployment: that would contain replicas of a container, and you would run multiple instances of your application, and then that would become a service, and you could then expose that via Ingress. So, there was a language that you could use to talk about your application and your system that was available to you in the environment that you're actually using. Whereas AWS, I think, would take the view that, “Well, we've already got these building blocks, so what we want our users to do is assemble the building blocks that already exist.” So, you still have to understand load balancers, you still have to understand security groups, you have to understand a great deal more at a slightly lower level of abstraction. And I think the thing that seemed exciting, or that seems—the potential about Kubernetes was that if we chose something that offered better concepts, then you could reasonably have a team that would run some kind of underlying platform, and then have teams build upon that platform without having to understand a great deal about what was going on inside. They could focus more on the applications and the systems that they were hoping to build. And that would be slightly harder on the alternative. So, I think at the time, again, it was one of those fortunate things where I was just coming to the end of another project and was in the fortunate position where I was just looking around at the various different things that we were doing as a business, and what opportunity there was to do something that would help push things on. And Kubernetes was one of those things which a couple of us had been talking about, and thinking, “Oh, maybe now is the time to give it a go. There's enough stability and maturity in it; we're starting to hit the problems that it's designed to address. Maybe there's a bit more appetite to do something different.” So, I think we just gave it a go. Built a proof of concept, showed that could run the most complex system that we had, and I think also did a couple of early experiments on the ways in which Kubernetes had support for horizontal scaling and other things which were slightly harder to put into practice in AWS. And so we did all that, I think gradually it just kind of growed out from there, just took the proof of concepts to other teams that were building products and services. We found a team that were struggling to keep their systems running because they were a tiny team. They only had, like, two or three engineers in. They had some stability problems over a weekend because the server ran out of hard disk space, and we just said, “Right. Well, look, if you use this, we'll take on that problem. You can just focus on the application.” It kind of just grew and grew from there.Emily: Was there anything that was a lot harder than you expected? So, I'm looking for surprises as you're adopting Kubernetes.Paul: Oh, surprises. I think there was a non-trivial amount that we had to learn about running it. And again, I think at the point at which we'd picked it up, it was, kind of, early days for automation, so there was—I think maybe Google had just launched Google Kubernetes engine on Google Cloud. Amazon certainly hadn't even announced that hosted Kubernetes would be an option. There was an early project within Kubernetes, called kops that you could use to create a cluster, but even then it didn't fit our network topology because it wouldn't work with the VPC networking that we needed and expected within our production infrastructure. So, there was a lot of that kind of work in the early days, to try and make something work, you had to understand in quite a level of detail what each component of Kubernetes was doing. As we were gradually rolling it out, I think the things that were most surprising were that, for a lot of people, it solved a lot of problems that meant they could move on, and I think people were actually slightly surprised by that. Which, [laughs], it sounds like quite a weird turn of phrase, but I think people were positively surprised at the amount of stuff that they didn't have to do for solving a fair few number of problems that they had. There was a couple of teams that were doing things that are slightly larger scale that we had to spend a bit more time on improving the performance of our setup. So, in particular, there was a team that had a reasonably strong requirement on the latency overheads of Ingress. So, they wanted their application to respond within, I don't know, I think it was maybe 200 milliseconds or something. And we, through setting up the monitoring and other bits and pieces that we had, we realized that Ingress currently was doing all right, but there was a fair amount of additional latency that was added at the tail that was a consequence of a couple of bugs or other things that existed in the infrastructure. So, there was definitely a lot of little niggly things that came up as we were going, but we were always confident that we could overcome it. And, as I said, I think that a lot of teams saw benefits very early on. And I think the other teams that were perhaps a little bit more skeptical because they got their own infrastructure already, they knew how to operate it, it was highly tested, they'd already run capacity and load tests on it, they were convinced that it was the most efficient thing that they could possibly run. I think even over the long run, I think they realized that there was more work that they needed to do than they should be focusing on, and so they were quite happy to ultimately switch over to the shared platform and infrastructure that the cloud infrastructure team run.Emily: As we wrap up, there's actually a question I want to go back to, which is how you were talking about the shifting priorities now that you've become CTO. Do you have any sort of examples of, like, what are the top three things that you will always care about, that you will always have the energy to think about? And then I'm curious to have some examples of things that you can't deal with, you can't think about. The things that tend to drop off.Paul: The top three things that I always think about. So, I think, actually, what's interesting about being CTO, that I perhaps wasn't expecting is that you're ever so slightly removed from the work, that you can't rely on the same signals or information to be able to make a decision on things, and so when I give the Kubernetes story, it's one of those, like, because I'd moved from one system to another, and I was starting a new project, I experienced some pain. It's like, “Right. Okay, I've got to go do something to fix this. I've had enough.” And I think the thing that I'm always paying attention to now, is trying to understand where that pain is next, and trying to make sure that I've got a mechanism for being able to appreciate that. So, I think a lot of the things I try to spend time on are things to help me keep track of what's going on, and then help me make decisions off the back of it. So, I think the things that I always spend time on are generally things trying to optimize some process or invest in automation. So, a good example at the moment is, we're talking about starting to do canary deployments. So, starting to automate the actual rollout of some new release, and being able to automate a comparison against the existing service, looking at latency, or some kind of transactional metrics to understand whether it's performing as well or different than something historical. So, I think the things that I tend to spend time on are process-oriented or are things to try and help us go quicker. One of the books that I read that changed my opinion of management was Andy Grove's, High Output Management. And I forget who recommended it to me, but somebody recommended it to me, and it completely altered my opinion of what value a manager can add. So, one of the lenses I try to apply to anything is of everything that's going on, what's the handful of things that are going to have the most impact or leverage across the organization, and try and spend my time on those. I think where it gets tricky is that you have to go broad and deep. So, as much as there are broad things that have a high consequence on the organization as a whole, you also need an appreciation of what's going on in the detail, and I think that's always tricky to manage. I'm sorry, I forgot what was the second part of your question.Emily: The second part was, do you have any examples of the things that you tend to not care about? That presumably someone is asking you to care about, and you don't?Paul: [laughs]. Yeah, it's a good question. I don't think it's that I don't care about it. I think it's that there are some questions that come my way that I know that I can defer, or they're things which are easy to hand off. So, I think the… that is a good question. I think one of the things that I think are always tricky to prioritize, are things which feel high consequence but are potentially also very close to bikeshedding. And I think that is something which is fair—I'd be interested to hear what other people said. So, a good example is, like, choice of tooling. And so when I was working on a team, or on a problem, we would focus on choosing the right tool for the job, and we would bias towards experimenting with tools early, and figuring out what worked, and I think now you have to view the same thing through a different lens. So, there's a degree to which you also incur an organizational cost as a consequence of having high variability in the programming languages that you choose to use. And so I don't think it's something I don't care about, but I think it's something which is interesting that I think it's something which, over the time I've been doing this role, I've gradually learned to let go of things that I would otherwise have previously thoroughly enjoyed getting involved in. And so you have to step back and say, “Well, actually I'm not the right person to be making a decision about which technology this team should be using. I should be trusting the team to make that decision.” And you have to kind of—I think that over the time I've been doing the role, you kind of learn which are the decisions that are high consequence that you should be involved in and which are the ones that you have to step back from. And you just have to say, look, I've got two hours of unblocked time this week where I can focus on something, so of the things on my priority list—the things that I've written in my journal that I want to get done this month—which of those things am I going to focus on, and which of the other things can I leave other people to get on with, and trust that things will work out all right?Emily: That's actually a very good segue into my final question, which is the same for everyone. And that is, what is an engineering tool that you can't live without—your favorite?Paul: Oh, that's a good question. So, I don't know if this is a cop-out by not mentioning something engineering-related, but I think the tool and technique which has helped me the most as I had more and more management responsibility and trying to keep track of things, is bullet journaling. So, I think, up until, I don't know, maybe five years ago, probably, I'd focus on using either iOS apps or note tools in both my laptop, and phone, and so on, and it never really stuck. And bullet journaling, through using a pen and a notepad, it forced me to go a bit slower. So, it forced me to write things down, to think through what was going on, and there is something about it being physical which makes me treat it slightly differently. So, I think bullet journaling is one of the things which has had the—yeah, it's really helped me deal with keeping track of what's going on, and then giving me the ability to then look back over the week, figure out what were the things that frustrated me, what can I change going into next week, one of the suggestions that the person that came up with bullet journaling recommended, is this idea of an end of week reflection. And so, one of the things I try to do—it's been harder doing it now that I'm working at home—is to spend just 15 minutes at the end of the week thinking of, what are the things that I'm really proud of? What are some good achievements that I should feel really good about going into next week? And so I think a lot of the activities that stem from bullet journaling have been really helpful. Yeah, it feels like a bit of a cop-out because it's not specifically technology related, but bullet journaling is something which has made a big difference to me.Emily: Not at all. That's totally fair. I think you are the first person who's had a completely non-technological answer, but I think I've had someone answer Slack, something along those lines.Paul: Yeah, I think what's interesting is there there are loads of those tools that we use all the time. Like Google Docs is something I can't live without. So, I think there's a ton of things that I use day-to-day that are hard to let go off, but I think the I think that the things that have made the most impact on my ability to deal with a stressful job, and give you the ability to manage yourself a little bit, I think yeah, it's been one of the most interesting things I've done.Emily: And where could listeners connect with you or follow you?Paul: Cool. So, I am @pingles on Twitter. My DMs are open, so if anybody wants to talk on that, I'm happy to. I'm also on GitHub under pingles, as well. So, @pingles, generally in most places will get you to me.Emily: Well, thank you so much for joining me.Paul: Thank you for talking. It's been good fun.Announcer: Thank you for listening to The Business of Cloud Native podcast. Keep up with the latest on the podcast at thebusinessofcloudnative.com and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. We'll see you next time.

1981: Prinz Charles und Lady Diana Spencer heiraten - und Bernie Paul bringt "Oh no no" heraus. Der Song wird zwar sein erfolgreichster, aber auch sein letzter großer Hit.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hey, Todd. I saw your pictures with you and some tigers. Where's that from?Todd: That was at a place in Southeast Asia. It was in Thailand, actually.Paul: All right.Todd: Yeah, it was pretty cool. I was a bit dubious of it. I mean, I saw the little advertisement of Tiger World and Tiger Zoo, or whatever it was. I went and took a tuk-tuk out there and checked it out, and it was pretty cool.Paul: How are the tigers treated within the zoo, the Tiger Land?Todd: Well, it's actually quite weird, in that it was like a zoo but you can go in and like touch the tigers -Paul: Oh, wow!Todd: --and be around the tigers. And so, they seem to have a pretty big area to roam around, and I guess they have a pretty good life. I guess the deal is that they were all raised in captivity, so they kind of give you a little spiel when you go in, and they explain that the tigers are raised in captivity, just like you would raise cows or pigs or horses or anything like that. So they're bred for the farm, and even though they're still really deadly, basically, you know, that's why they're there, because they were bred to be there.Paul: Bred to entertain.Todd: Yeah, kind of. It's a bit odd. You do feel a little strange, because you figure that they're tigers, and they should be out in the wild. But then again, you know, it's an opportunity for people to actually see these beautiful things.Paul: Yeah, it's an opportunity. I guess it's an opportunity also to learn about these creatures, which would are found in the wild.Todd: Right.Paul: Okay, wow, I mean, you're really close to those tigers, Todd. I mean, how did you feel? Were you scared?Todd: Actually, yeah. I mean, it's a little unsetting. Even with the little babies, you figure, - Wow! you know, or the young ones, that they are still quite big, you know. When they lie down on the ground, the full length of their body, even for a young tiger, is about the size of a human.Paul: Wow.Todd: And you realize that, you know, they could eat anything, so it's a bit scary.Paul: Yeah, you could have been eaten at any point.Todd: Well, it definitely crosses your mind. And you ask them about that, because naturally, everybody's worried about security, safety. And they say that, you know, their deal is that they know the tigers' behavior down cold, and that they know that as long as you feed the tigers early in the morning, and then they feed them again at night, then during the day, they just want to lay and sleep. They have no desire to go hunting or anything like that. So that's why they're actually safe to be around in the afternoon hours.Paul: Ah, they're very like placid by that point.Todd: Right. And they also say that because the tigers are born in captivity that they're used to being around humans from birth. So ever since they're little cubs, you know, they've had human handlers. They've had humans around them, so they're highly familiar and comfortable with humans touching them, being around them. So that's how they can, you know, allow people to be around them and keep it safe. But it still does cross your mind.Paul: Yeah, I'm sure it does, especially if you're a parent with a child, because obviously, you know, children will be a quite nice meal for a tiger.Todd: Actually, you know what? I think, looking back, you couldn't take children in the cage.Paul: Ah.Todd: I think it was almost like an amusement park; you had to be a certain height. So they didn't want you to be---they didn't want anything small that would just be too tempting for the tiger.Paul: Yeah.Todd: Although that seems kind of strange, because there were really small, petite women that were going in the cage.Paul: I see.Todd: So there's not that much of a difference there.Paul: No, I don't suppose so. I guess, if it's based on height.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hey, Todd. I saw your pictures with you and some tigers. Where's that from?Todd: That was at a place in Southeast Asia. It was in Thailand, actually.Paul: All right.Todd: Yeah, it was pretty cool. I was a bit dubious of it. I mean, I saw the little advertisement of Tiger World and Tiger Zoo, or whatever it was. I went and took a tuk-tuk out there and checked it out, and it was pretty cool.Paul: How are the tigers treated within the zoo, the Tiger Land?Todd: Well, it's actually quite weird, in that it was like a zoo but you can go in and like touch the tigers -Paul: Oh, wow!Todd: --and be around the tigers. And so, they seem to have a pretty big area to roam around, and I guess they have a pretty good life. I guess the deal is that they were all raised in captivity, so they kind of give you a little spiel when you go in, and they explain that the tigers are raised in captivity, just like you would raise cows or pigs or horses or anything like that. So they're bred for the farm, and even though they're still really deadly, basically, you know, that's why they're there, because they were bred to be there.Paul: Bred to entertain.Todd: Yeah, kind of. It's a bit odd. You do feel a little strange, because you figure that they're tigers, and they should be out in the wild. But then again, you know, it's an opportunity for people to actually see these beautiful things.Paul: Yeah, it's an opportunity. I guess it's an opportunity also to learn about these creatures, which would are found in the wild.Todd: Right.Paul: Okay, wow, I mean, you're really close to those tigers, Todd. I mean, how did you feel? Were you scared?Todd: Actually, yeah. I mean, it's a little unsetting. Even with the little babies, you figure, - Wow! you know, or the young ones, that they are still quite big, you know. When they lie down on the ground, the full length of their body, even for a young tiger, is about the size of a human.Paul: Wow.Todd: And you realize that, you know, they could eat anything, so it's a bit scary.Paul: Yeah, you could have been eaten at any point.Todd: Well, it definitely crosses your mind. And you ask them about that, because naturally, everybody's worried about security, safety. And they say that, you know, their deal is that they know the tigers' behavior down cold, and that they know that as long as you feed the tigers early in the morning, and then they feed them again at night, then during the day, they just want to lay and sleep. They have no desire to go hunting or anything like that. So that's why they're actually safe to be around in the afternoon hours.Paul: Ah, they're very like placid by that point.Todd: Right. And they also say that because the tigers are born in captivity that they're used to being around humans from birth. So ever since they're little cubs, you know, they've had human handlers. They've had humans around them, so they're highly familiar and comfortable with humans touching them, being around them. So that's how they can, you know, allow people to be around them and keep it safe. But it still does cross your mind.Paul: Yeah, I'm sure it does, especially if you're a parent with a child, because obviously, you know, children will be a quite nice meal for a tiger.Todd: Actually, you know what? I think, looking back, you couldn't take children in the cage.Paul: Ah.Todd: I think it was almost like an amusement park; you had to be a certain height. So they didn't want you to be---they didn't want anything small that would just be too tempting for the tiger.Paul: Yeah.Todd: Although that seems kind of strange, because there were really small, petite women that were going in the cage.Paul: I see.Todd: So there's not that much of a difference there.Paul: No, I don't suppose so. I guess, if it's based on height.

We’re living through an unprecedented time in American history. Businesses are closed, schools are shuttered, and gatherings are canceled, all because of an invisible, infectious agent that our modern world hasn’t been able to match — not yet, anyway.Marking the unique circumstances, we spent the most recent episode of the P100 Podcast discussing the effects of COVID-19 on daily life (including our own), how people and businesses can help their communities, and how they can communicate during a crisis.If you’re hitting the download button or streaming from your “office away from the office,” thank you for listening and stay safe. Full Transcript:Paul:Welcome back to a special edition of the P100 podcast, the audio companion to the Pittsburgh 100 e-zine. This episode, solely focused on COVID-19, the coronavirus. I'm Paul Furiga, your cohost along with my colleagues, Dan Stefano…Dan:Hey Paul.Paul:And Logan Armstrong.Logan:Hi Paul.Paul:And I want you all to know at home we are practicing safe social distancing. In fact, we are so far away from you while you're listening to us right now ... well, that's another story. Seriously though, given the times that we're in, we thought that we would devote this entire episode of the podcast to understanding how we, as a community can deal with this. I've never seen a situation like this in my lifetime and as Dan and Logan frequently remind me, I'm old.Dan:I think you got a point there. I mean, I've tried to think of this in context of my own life. I'm 33 and I would say the most impactful thing that has ever occurred in my lifetime was 9/11.Paul:Right.Dan:And I was in high school whenever that happened. That was a time whenever the stock market cratered. The next day all air traffic was suspended. It was severely drastic. It took a long time for American life to get back to normal then. Whatever the new normal was, I should say. But this seems like it could be something different. There's a lot of uncertainty in the air, which there was at that time in 2001 for sure, but when we're talking about a virus here, we're talking about something that we don't have a vaccine for, it's a little bit scary right now. And I feel like the streets are even ... it's weird to be walking downtown. At the WordWrite offices here, we're getting ready to practice social distancing and work from home.Paul:Work from home, yeah.Dan:I could say in some ways it feels similar to those days after 9/11 but it's very different too.Paul:Absolutely. Logan.Logan:Yeah. And I'm a little younger. So I'm only 22.Dan:Little.Logan:I was a young kid when 9/11 happened. But also especially with what we're seeing in the market right now, very reminiscent of the 2008 era, which of course this has a few different causes than in 2008. But we've seen people are going crazy at supermarkets…Paul:That's right.Logan:... and really trying to stockpile, which is good because they're themselves trying to self-quarantine but it's going to be interesting to see how the markets react and how local businesses and business owners will wade through the waters during this time. Dan:AbsolutelyPaul:So a couple of things we wanted to do, number one, we wanted to share some helpful resources, which certainly there are probably, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably a consumer of a lot of things online and you may already have some favorites, but we are at WordWrite in the business of working with reliable news organizations. So we'll share a few of our favorite go-to sources for local information here in western Pennsylvania.Paul:And then we're going to shift gears a bit and we're going to talk about our own experience because it's a crazy situation, but a lot of our clients rely on us for our crisis expertise. In any given year, we handle about 12 major crises, 10 of which you never read about because they're effectively handled. And then two of them, sadly, for whatever reason, they're all over the news. So we actually have a lot of experience in this arena and we are currently working with several of our clients on crises related to the COVID-19 outbreak.Paul:So first let's talk about some go-to sources here in western Pennsylvania. Dan and I, we share this other disease called being former journalists. Dan, some of your favorite go-tos for reliable and accurate information on what's happening.Dan:Still trying to get over that. The journalism disease. No, it's no disease. I mean, some of my good friends are journalists. So, I appreciate them.Paul:Yes, likewise.Dan:As you said, I do respect just journalism and what they put in. So I mean, your two major newspaper news sources in the area would be Post-Gazette and then triblive.com, the former Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. And now just the regular Tribune-Review set in Greensburg. That's a great place to go for it. But I'd recommend, if you're talking locally, the Allegheny County Health Department. That's got pretty consistent and good updates.Paul:They have an entire page, Allegheny County-Dan:Yes, they do.Paul:... .PA.US devoted to COVID-19.Dan:Right. Everybody's got their own page on it now. I mean it's incredible. I think everybody has been a victim of getting all these emails now. And I mean fortunately I have an email from the CEO of Banana Republic to tell me that all their stores are safe, but that's also just ... that's best practice right now. And businesses are doing their due diligence to just show everyone that they're trying to do their best.Dan:But for right now, I mean, that gets a little bit away from our question and I'm kind of drifting here, but I would follow the PG and TribLIVE. But a lot of them, they're getting their information from the government sources here. But I would really trust the County Health Department and that's some of your most current information.Paul:Absolutely.Dan:Make sure you're following their Twitter accounts and everything you can.Paul:Logan anything you'd add?Logan:I'd also say that The Incline, they're usually a little more lighthearted, but they've been doing a really good job of grouping up various articles from multiple local publications.Paul:Yes, aggregating content.Dan:Yeah.Logan:Exactly. Yeah. Aggregating that and that's getting delivered to inboxes at 6:00 a.m. every day. If you need to be up to date on the latest news in the area, I would also say check out The Incline for that.Paul:I'm going to add a few more. So in the last few years, pretty much every television station in Pittsburgh has debuted some flavor of an online presence, sometimes up to and including live streaming of events. So one of the things we've been doing at WordWrite is we've been watching live streams of Governor Wolf, the Pennsylvania governor, and his press conferences, Rich Fitzgerald, the Allegheny County executive, the County Health Department. I believe the new director's name is Dr. Bogen, so that's available.Paul:I would also add, and this has not really gotten much attention because the debut occurred during this whole crisis, but Channel 2 KDKA, which is owned by a CBS Network, has debuted essentially I believe a local version of on-air all the time local news. So CBSN is the national network and there's some local connection. I'll be honest with our listeners, I haven't had time to fully understand all of that because we've been so busy with other things. Personally, I look at all of those. I also look at WESA-FM. One of the reasons for that is with everything that's happened in newspapers in recent years, the major foundations in Pittsburgh have poured a fairly substantial amount of money into building the newsroom at WESA and they have all of the same kinds of resources in terms of online delivery of news that we've just talked about.Paul:So those for me are all good services. Most of us, I'm of a certain age, I'm 61. I hate to say that in a room with somebody in their twenties and thirties but it's the truth, I can't lie, it's on my driver's license, anyway, even somebody like me can make use of the phone and I am getting a lot of alerts. So I rely on the alerts as well to remind me. Before we shift gears here and talk about some advice for our listeners, even in our own planning for WordWrite, as Dan mentioned, on Friday we were ready, Friday the 13th of March, we were ready to implement a phased work from home process where some people would be in the office. And by the time we got to Sunday of the weekend where mandatory, non-essential businesses are asked to close or it is voluntary but strongly encouraged.Paul:So things are just moving so fast now it's worthwhile not to scare yourself, and I think that's, Logan, why it's good that you mentioned The Incline. Really good journalists can have the right touch to put an uplifting spirit into their round up of things. Right? But you don't want to be consumed by the news, but you also want to be informed and up to date. You don't want to be headed out to go to an event or something like that when it's not going to happen. And it was just cancelled. I don't know. Anything you guys would add to that?Dan:Well I think if you're talking about cancelled events, just try to look up to see what one is actually on now. Pretty much the assumption should be that it's closed. But-Logan:Yeah. And one thing I'd add is that it is a little hectic with all of these things happening so fast. But one of the hopeful benefits of that is this quick action now is really going to be the precursor to slowing it down in the long run.Paul:Absolutely. And this is something that, for our listeners, that we've been talking about here at the company in terms of working with our clients and that is that we are at this inflection point where the number of people who might be contagious in our community is at its highest point at the same time that we have the least ability to test.Paul:So if we self-isolate for the next two weeks, what we'll be able to do is keep those who might be infected from spreading the disease. National news media is saying that the United States might be 11 days behind Italy, meaning that what's happened there could happen roughly two weeks later here in the United States. God forbid, we don't want that. Other folks I've seen on the national news talk about we want to be like South Korea where there was a lot of testing, the self-isolation and they seem to have, as the medical experts call it, flattened the curve, which is to say slow the growth of the virus so that the number of people who are sick doesn't exceed the capacity of the region's healthcare providers to treat those who are sick.Dan:One thing, Paul, I'd like to bring up, open the conversation to you and Logan is what's fascinating about this is similar, like we said, I mean I hate to keep making the comparisons to 9/11 because that was a very much different type of crisis, but that was a tragedy that affected almost everyone in the U.S. at some level. Corona possibly even more. Just in terms of even if you aren't getting the disease, I mean it's probably going to disrupt your life, whether how you're working or somebody that you know. Maybe your children are off of school right now. There's quite a bit going on. And Paul, yourself, I know you've had some, personal events that are affecting you, right?Paul:Oh absolutely. So I'll give you a few. Number one, one of our two daughters is getting married, we hope, on May 31st. There's been a lot of conversations with the venue and the providers. The baker and the flowers and everything else. And we'll see how things play out. May 31st might be okay, but let's just say that we're a little concerned.Paul:Our other daughter is getting her MBA at the University of Chicago and they have extended spring break, which has pushed their, they're on a quarter system, their third quarter deeper into the year. She's supposed to have an internship this summer. It was going to start June 1st. She won't be done with school on June 1st and we don't even know if she'll have the internship.Dan:Yeah, certainly, it's amazing how this is just disrupting lives. I mean it's putting almost everything on pause. It's amazing. Myself, my wife and I, we were planning on taking a vacation to Japan, it was going to be the first week of April and we were looking forward to this trip for an entire year. It was just something we'd planned. It's kind of a bucket list type thing and just a week ago we had to cancel it. Right now as we record here, there are no travel restrictions over there, but there's just no guarantee whenever you see the massive lines that are coming for people that are coming back into the country, at least from Europe. But just something we had to be take care of.Dan:And we were even planning on maybe having a backup trip to California. And now we're really seriously kind of rethinking that one. It feels selfish to say, well hey, this thing that was just a wonderful little pleasure trip for us here we're disrupting it. How horrible is that? But we don't know when we're going to be able to take that trip again. We planned for specific dates in our lives. We mapped around that. So it's just another area that it does affect things. But Logan, I know you've even had some ...Logan:Yes. Yeah. It's a similar situation. I had a trip planned to Italy. I guess I would've left last week. Yeah. But it is unfortunate that this is such a disruptive virus. But thinking on the bigger picture of things, I mean, it's much better to have these disruptions now and really put these policies in place, especially because not only on an individual level, but on a business level, as we touched on earlier, there's really a lot of things that business owners are going to have to prepare for. And there may be some crisis communications that business owners have to take into account and that's something that we've experienced here. Yeah, Paul?Paul:Oh absolutely. Absolutely. And we want to dig into that for the remainder of our time here on the podcast, this episode. And before I do that, I just want to give a quick shout out to your point, Logan, the retail and restaurant sectors are going to be particularly hard hit and in the local economy as well as the American economy, the percentage of workers who are hourly who have, let's just say less robust benefits packages, whatever we can do as a community to keep them in mind and help to keep them employed I think is really important.Paul:One of the other sources of information that I didn't mention earlier were members of the Pittsburgh Downtown Partnership, the Partnership has articles in the Pittsburgh 100 frequently. Their weekly… they do a weekly sort of what's going on downtown email. And the one that I received just before we came in to record the podcast is all about this subject. So you can't dine in during the time that businesses are closed but you can still do take out. So there's things that we can do as a community to help our friends and our neighbors through. And I think it's something we should do.Dan:Yeah, I think before we take a deeper dive into talking about crises and crises management, what you said there kind of touches on an important point and one thing, one of the huge crises or huge problems that are coming out of this is whenever schools are closed there are a lot of students out there who might be on free or reduced lunch and these are kids who might rely on these school lunches to help themselves eat. It might be their biggest meal of the day.Dan:But one thing that you've seen is restaurants are coming out and offering free lunches to some of these kids. I believe some districts have, including I believe Pittsburgh Public, they have programs in place to help these kids to make sure that they have food, that they have resources.Dan:And that touches on your point there, Paul, about the Pittsburgh Downtown Partnership in that…do something. If you're a business owner and you feel like maybe it's a helpless time right now, maybe you have to put pause on a lot of things, you can think of something to do and that's one way I think if you make yourself a goal and you have a mission, you can help yourself get through this, right?Paul:Oh, absolutely. We're going to shift gears now folks and talk about crisis. To Dan's point, this is one of the things when we sat down and we looked at this episode of the podcast, there were other segments and other things that we had planned to do perhaps, but we agreed that one of the ways that we could be helpful was to share with people what we know about this.Paul:So I'm going to kick off this portion of the episode here and Dan and Logan will jump in. So historically, one of the things that we've done a lot of at WordWrite is crisis communication. And one of the things we've learned is that there are only really four basic kinds of crises.Paul:So there are acts of God, there are acts of man, there are acts of God made worse by man, and there are acts of man made worse by God. That's it. You can think about pretty much anything bad that's ever happened in the history of the world. And there's going to be some element of one of those four categories. So certainly-Dan:If you asked my wife I think she would say that there are also acts of God made worse by Dan. But we'll leave it to four right now.Paul:Well Dan, the last time I looked, you are a human being, so we'll put you in one of the four categories.Dan:Got you.Paul:Anyway, certainly the viruses, if you want to call it that, an act of God, it's an act of nature. What we don't know yet is whether what's happened, our acts of man, let's call it, that it made it worse. When you go back to China we're not here to judge. We don't really know exactly where the virus spread began. But certainly there's humankind and there's nature mixed together in this crisis.Paul:So one of the things that's interesting in doing so much crisis communications at our firm that is both a positive and a cause for pause, is that most crises are predictable. This is not the first time that the world's been through an epidemic, a pandemic, a virus, and perhaps it's the 21st century technology-driven, I don't know if we've become a little bit lazy or we're just lulled into a sense of complacency, but what this epidemic is demonstrating to us that this can still happen in the 21st century.Logan:Yes. Even with all the technological advances, and medical advancements, and medical capabilities, something that moves this fast is very hard to control no matter-Paul:Absolutely.Logan:... how many technological capabilities we have. And it's something that we're probably not going to have a vaccine for, for a little bit. This vaccine isn't going to be coming in the next week or the next month.Dan:Testing's an issue too right now.Logan:Exactly.Paul:18 to 24 months is what people are saying.Logan:Right. So we're really going to have to figure out what the best course of action is. And I think that's going to be something that is going to be on the fly. Because, as you've said, we've seen these kinds of crises before, but there's no real way to account for all the variants in it and it's going to be on people and on the media to portray information in as close to real time as possible and as accurately as possible to try to help mitigate that.Paul:So one of the things that I think is true about this, 1918 the Spanish flu epidemic was just a terrible worldwide crisis. So that fits into what I just said about most crises are predictable. So we can learn from that. And to your point, Logan, this is fast moving, but we can learn from what's happened in Italy. We can learn from what's happened in China, within the more restrictive immediate window. So that's critically important.Paul:One of the other things that's important, and there are going to be people who are going to be picking over this for years, I'm sure, what we tell our clients is if crises are predictable, then you need to plan for them. So theoretically the world, especially the largest economies and countries in the world should have been planning for this sort of a thing. And there had been some, let's just say missteps, fits and starts.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Now for our listeners, even though this thing is underway, you can look at history and you can look at recent events to do your own planning for the crisis. So we're already in it. So to your point Logan, there's an element of every day is different and you can't predict for sure, but one of the things we do when we work with clients is scenario planning. What's the worst case scenario? What's the best case scenario, what's the likely scenario? And then you start to develop your communications around each one of those outcomes. And that guides you on a day to day basis in terms of what you need to be doing.Dan:Right in this situation, and I would just kind of play interviewer here with you Paul, with so many different businesses it's hard to gauge, exactly what are likely outcomes. Businesses right now we might think of they might have to do some layoffs, they might have to temporarily furlough some employees and whether certain bills pass out of our Congress here they may have wages, they may not. It depends on how large a company is. One thing here though, whenever we've had this discussion is we talk about, you start from a place of truth when you're communicating these outcomes. Can you elaborate a little more on that?Paul:Sure. So in a crisis like this, obviously if you're standing in front of the forest and the forest is burning behind you, you can't tell people that that smell in the air is a candle. You have to acknowledge even the hard truths.Paul:One of the things that we see time and again is that if you're straightforward with people up front and there's tons of university research on this that validates this point, they're going to give you the benefit of the doubt. If I own a restaurant in Pittsburgh that opened two months ago – I'm in a place that's not the same as a restaurant that's been around for 25 years. Right? And I need to say to people, look guys, we just opened. I can't guarantee you that we're going to ride through this unscathed.Paul:And then what you need to do is you need to communicate process. And that's where that scenario planning comes in handy. It's like, look, we don't know where this is going to end, but here's what we're going to do today. Here's what we're going to do next week. Here's our thought process and our plan, and there's a lot of university research on this too, that when you can't communicate content, if you can communicate process it calms people's fears and gets people organized around the common goal of moving forward.Dan:I guess that speaks to control. It might be the wrong word to say controlling, but trying to manage people's emotions here. I think we have to understand how everyone is feeling because we're feeling the same way on a lot of these things. I mean we can tell a business, a B2B business, okay, hey, this is how you want to talk when you're talking to your clients or something like that. But we have the same feelings whenever we're trying to listen to the government here. Are they going to tell us the process? Are they going to describe that?Dan:So can you talk a little bit about how to be a good effective communicator to work with the community and make sure that you're delivering this information not maybe necessarily in a doom and gloom way and just being an effective storyteller essentially?Paul:Right. So one of the things that we're big on obviously at our company is the process of storytelling. We have our own process that we help companies uncover what we call their Capital S story. And I do a lot of speaking around this. In a crisis there's no more important time for you to be thinking about your Capital S story and that story is this, it answers these questions. Why would somebody work for you, buy from you, invest in you, partner with you? If you're a nonprofit, why would they donate or volunteer with your organization? And that is the story above all stories for your company, your organization. That's why we call it the Capital S story.Paul:And you think about that in times of stress, a crisis like this, which is an enormous stressor. It doesn't matter so much what you say on a daily basis. It matters what people believe you to be as an organization. And I think Dan, that's kind of what you're getting at there.Paul:And in a crisis, what we find is whatever audience you're trying to reach, employees, partners, vendors, customers, that's where they go in their minds in terms of assessing whether or not to believe you when you say don't worry about this, or I need your help to do X, Y and Z so that we can pull through this crisis.Paul:Right now, all of us are being flooded with information and this story is like cast in concrete. It's bedrock. It's the granite of who your organization is and they're going back to that hard place that they can knock on, that they can sit on, that they can lean on, and that's the truth that they're looking for. To assess whether or not your organization in this time of crisis is an organization that can be believed.Dan:Now, not every business, well whenever we think of Corona individually, I mean I'm just thinking of the restaurant that's across the street from us right now but people aren't looking necessarily for Bruegger's Bagels to answer the crisis or come up with a vaccine or explain people how to feel. But how, if you're a business that isn't necessarily adjacent to the current crisis or if you're just you have nothing to do with it, but your business maybe is closed or something like that, how do you kind of manage these crises that you're not necessarily related to but it does affect you?Paul:So I think one of the things that we're seeing, and we started the episode today by talking about the news media and some other resources who are trying to be helpful. So you want to be helpful. And there's also an element of business as usual. A lot of the companies that aren't directly affected by the crisis, and of course I'm sure many of our listeners are saying, well everybody's affected by it, and certainly when we all need to be self-isolating, we all are affected by it, but if you're not directly affected by it in the sense that you don't run a restaurant or you're not a retail store or you're not an event space where hundreds of people would be expected to gather, this is a time to be helpful.Paul:One of the reasons why we're doing this specific episode of the podcast, we see many, many institutions in the community, there is an element of what they're doing, to your point, Dan, where it is on some level still business as usual. However they have the opportunity because of things being pulled in to reduce the spread of the virus, to have some time, to have some resources to be helpful in whatever way that they can be.Dan:Paul, all that stuff is really helpful here. And so I appreciate you especially sharing your expertise here in crisis communications and we encourage anybody who's listening at home to feel free to check out wordwritepr.com. We've got some really good information. There's some good stuff on crisis communications and certainly even one of our VPs here, Jeremy Church, just wrote a really interesting blog about effective crisis communication during outbreaks.Paul:Yeah. And Dan, we'll be putting up in the show notes, I wrote one in July of last year, Storytelling in a Crisis: Why You Need Your Capital S Story. And again, we're going to be sharing a lot more of the resources that we can. This is a time when we all need to pull together as a community. And certainly we have clients whom we work for and we have a lot of experience that we've developed over the years, and we want to be able to share that with the community in the spirit of helping everybody recover from this as quickly as possible. And to your point, Dan, if there's anything that we can do as people who believe in good, strong, authentic communications, we want to do that for the community.Dan:Absolutely, 100%. And as we wrap up here just the message from us here is hopefully everybody at home can weather this as well as they can. Every business can as well. It sounds cheery and optimistic to say, but we will get through this and we'll survive.Paul:Absolutely.Dan:Yeah. 

Dr. Paul Oh discusses the importance of exercise when you live with type 2 diabetes. He provides simple steps to incorporate exercise into your life, including finding the type of exercise that will work best for you. Dr. Oh is the Medical Director, GoodLife Fitness Chair and a Senior Scientist in the Cardiovascular Disease Prevention and Rehabilitation Program at the Toronto Rehabilitation Institute.  

Dr. Paul Oh discusses the importance of exercise when you live with type 2 diabetes. He provides simple steps to incorporate exercise into your life, including finding the type of exercise that will w

This episode, we’re talking about people who are coming to Pittsburgh, whether it’s for work or just visiting.We’ll break down a report that suggests the city might be a better fit for tech workers than the mecca of the digital economy, Silicon Valley (gotta love our standard of living). We’re also talking about a recent article that probes the need for a new hotel at the convention center. (Hint: The answer isn’t very simple.)In between, we welcome the Breaking Brews Podcast’s host Jason Cercone for a chat about the business of beer and Pittsburgh’s place in the industry.This episode is sponsored by WordWrite:Centuries before cellphones and social media, human connections were made around fires, as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts, minds and inspire action.At WordWrite, Pittsburgh’s largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story – the reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented StoryCrafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S story.Logan:You are listening to the P100 podcast, the bi-weekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just isn't enough for a great story. Logan:Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the P100 podcast. You're here with myself, Logan Armstrong, and co-hosts Dan Stefano and Paul Furiga. Guys, how are you doing?Paul:Great, Logan.Dan:Emphasis on the co-host there. You're the host with the mostest there.Logan:I try to be. I do what I can, but-Paul:Yes he does and he does it well.Logan:I get my mostest from the people I'm surrounded with. On today's episode, we're going to be examining tech jobs in Pittsburgh, and there have been a few recent articles for some vying to leave and some vying to stay that you may have seen. So we're going to be talking about that and seeing how Pittsburgh ranks compared with cities and metros around the country in tech jobs.Logan:Then we're going to bring in our good friend Jason Cercone from the Breaking Brews podcast. He takes a drink from breaking, excuse me. He takes a break from drinking beer and talks about the business side of it.Paul:Wait a minute, that wasn't in this segment. There was no beer drinking?Logan:Unfortunately no.Logan:We asked him about it and he said that he'd be happy to rejoin us.Dan:Logan, let's remember we're talking to the CEO of our company within the office, so no. There's no-Paul:Well that's fine. Let's chat.Dan:We don't have a video of this, but if you could see the winking eye. No, there is no-Logan:No beer during this segment.Dan:Drinking during this segment.Paul:Of course not.Logan:Okay, and then finally we're going to wrap up with what's missing from downtown.Paul:Oh.Logan:Indeed, mysterious.Paul:Question.Logan:That's right. You'll have to stick around to see what we're talking about, but we're in for a great episode so we hope you stick around.Dan:I hope it's not my car or anything.Paul:Okay guys, time to do one of our favorite things on the podcast. Talk about Pittsburgh getting another great national ranking.Dan:Another list, right?Paul:We're on another list.Dan:Yeah.Paul:This one's a good one. Although, if you're in the Silicon Valley area, maybe not so good.Dan:Right.Paul:A couple of weeks ago, Wallet Hub, which is an online service provider that looks at financial things, very popular with millennials.Dan:They make many lists.Paul:They make many lists of many different things. Top places to live in the country for tech workers. Pittsburgh, number five. Silicon Valley, not so high, which caused the San Jose Mercury News, which San Jose's a community that's smack in the middle of Silicon Valley, to write sort of a cheeky little article. Pittsburgh is better for tech workers than Silicon Valley? Question mark. Well, yes, if you want to live affordably, apparently it actually is.Dan:That's completely accurate. Yeah. The Bay Area, it's got to be one of the highest costs of living-Paul:It is actually.Dan:In the country.Paul:It has the highest cost of living in the country. And Logan, you were looking inside some of the rankings, and Pittsburgh ranked in the top 15 in a number of categories, right?Logan:Yes. So the three categories were professional opportunities, STEM friendliness, and quality of life. And Pittsburgh ranked 13th, 14th, and 11th in those, respectively. And some of the reasons that places like San Francisco and the Bay Area didn't rank so highly is that they would rank very high in one or two of these categories. So for example, San Francisco ranked third in both professional opportunities and STEM friendliness but then ranked 63rd in quality of life for reasons we were alluding to earlier. So it's good to see that Pittsburgh ranked in these lists as being as an all around. Maybe it's not top five or the best in STEM friendliness or professional opportunities, but it's well-rounded and our quality of life here is, according to this list, far better than some of our counterparts.Paul:And certainly as the community here has continued to transform, and I'm thinking now of Uber, and Apptive, and Apple's got a good presence in the city. Facebook's virtual reality company, Oculus, is wholly sited here in the Pittsburgh region. We're trying to attract more tech workers and we've got these great university programs, CMU and Pitt at the head of the pack, but others as well, where we're building this tech community. And I guess it does still surprise people in the more traditional communities, but it's legit. There's something going on here.Dan:Right. For better or worse, Pittsburgh will always kind of bring that blue collar atmosphere, that blue collar mentality, a bit rough around the edges. I talk about it all the time, but my wife's family, who, they grew up in California, they all lived in California for a while. They came to Pittsburgh here and they said, "Wow, I had no idea it was this green." So there's always going to be a bit of a stigma that the city carries around, but I think these lists show that to that the news is catching on here. And Pittsburgh is basically known now for the meds and eds and now tech. The reputation is definitely growing here and starting to overcome that stigma.Paul:That perception.Dan:Yeah. But there's ... Well, not to be Debbie Downer or play devil's advocate here, there are still the legacies of that history here that carries on, especially in our environment.Paul:Yeah. We still have work to do, that's for sure. I can remember when I first moved back to this region from the Washington DC area. I had a job in the south side and what is now South Side Works was still a working steel mill, and as I would drive across the Birmingham Bridge every morning, the smell of burning coke was my appetizer before breakfast.Logan:Morning coffee.Dan:That'll wake you.Paul:And there's been plenty of coverage, and legitimately so, that we still have environmental problems in the region. And certainly one of the reasons why the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, is disadvantaged on a list like this, is because there's such a huge economic disparity there. It's the most expensive metropolitan area in the country. Ours is not. Part of the reason Pittsburgh's so affordable, the collapse of the steel industry and heavy industry. So there's all this housing stock and we didn't have the kind of inflation maybe that a place on the coast like San Francisco has had, but we have economic disparity too, and that's something that we have to work on too.Dan:Right. I think that's being recognized now. We talked about a couple episodes ago here, that the city is starting to take a hard look at itself, especially in terms of the racial inequalities that exist here.Paul:Yes.Dan:Again, the three of us aren't the best people to speak to this. We don't live the same experiences that a lot of people do in this city, but we can play a role by listening and being active and playing a part in recognizing that. And trying to create opportunities, being part of the solutions here. It's going to take a long time for Pittsburgh to completely shrug off some of the legacies that came from the 20th century here, some of the stuff that might be dragging down the city, but we can do it.Paul:We absolutely can. And if we can, we'll put in the show notes, there have been a couple of interesting public source articles that have dug into some of these issues, and I was reading-Dan:Quite a battle in tech, here.Paul:It was a battle in tech, and there's one written by a fellow named Noah Theriault, I believe that's how his name is pronounced, and he's at CMU. And the conclusion of this article, which you found, Dan, I thought was really interesting. He said "Here many of us who come here for opportunities in the city's universities, hospitals, and tech firms, do so in a state of willful ignorance. We take advantage of the low cost of living, we relish the walkability of the neighborhoods. We gentrify. Many of us smugly believe that we are the city's rebirth, the salvation from rust and blight. Too few of us learn about the historical and ongoing realities that make it most livable." And I think that's something that's really at the heart of what we need to remember. It's great to be on lists like this, but really there is no Nirvana -Dan:Right?Paul:That exists among places to live in this country. We have work to do too.Dan:It's hard to put a number on somebody's personal experiences here. I think that's the crux of what you were talking about there.Paul:Exactly. Exactly.Dan:All right. We're here with Jason Cercone. He's the chief brand officer at Breaking Brews, also the founder there and they're a content network and digital resource platform for people in the beer industry. Not only that, he hosts the Breaking Brews podcast, which takes a pretty unique look at the beer industry. They focus a lot on the business side of things. So Jason, thanks for being here.Jason:Thanks for having me guys.Dan:Awesome. Okay. As we mentioned, what you like to do with Breaking Brews your podcast and kind of spins off of your business. You look at a pretty different side of things in the spirits industry, in the alcohol industry there, that people don't think of all the time and that's actually selling the stuff and getting it out there, right? Yeah.Jason:Yeah. What I discovered was there are a lot of podcasts dedicated to drinking beer and reviewing and having fun and those podcasts are all great, but I wanted to bring something different to the podcast world. And I started looking at the fact that we don't have a ton of podcasts that are dedicated to the business side. Which talks about sales and marketing and distribution, all those different facets that are very important and very critical to the beer world. That was where it really started to ... or where I really started to make it take off. And I talked to a lot of industry professionals that felt the same way. They said when they're cleaning kegs and doing some of the horrible work that goes on in the brew houses that they want to put on a good podcast and listen to something that they can learn from, and that was the resource I wanted to put out there for them.Dan:Right, well the industry's really exploded as far as the craft production or the craft beer segment goes. I think ... I'm just looking at some facts here from the Brewer's Association, retail sale dollars of craft beer in 2018, I think the most recent year of stats was $27.6 billion. You said you've seen that since you started the Breaking Brews podcast yourself, you started about four years ago, or is that just your business?Jason:Breaking Brews itself started back in 2014. This is actually my third iteration of a podcast. I actually did one, like I was saying before, where we just sat around and drank beer, and that got old after a while.Dan:Why aren't we doing that right now?Jason:That's a very good question. I know. I was quizzed on that when I walked in the door, why I didn't bring beer and I'm starting to regret that.Dan:We'll just have our first kegger podcast, here.Logan:Yeah, well that'd make for some good conversation, that's for sure.Dan:That's a great idea.Jason:I'm always happy to come back for a second round if you guys want me to bring some-Dan:Right.Jason:Good drinks.Dan:Great idea. But yeah, as we were talking about the industry is just enormous right now. We're seeing that too in Pittsburgh, right?Jason:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean when I started things in 2014, there was probably maybe a dozen local craft breweries and now you look at the landscape, there's over 50 throughout the region. It's incredible. So many of them are doing great products and getting it out to bars around the area and also creating an awesome taproom experience too.Dan:Why do you think that is?Jason:Pittsburgh loves its beer, man.Dan:Yeah.Jason:But overall I think that ... I mean we haven't ... we hear the talk about the bubble a lot and has craft beer reached its saturation point. And I've always been a firm believer that we haven't even come close because we're not even close to the number that we had, or number of breweries we had before prohibition.Dan:Yeah.Jason:I mean we're creeping up, we're getting close, but the population of all these different cities and states across the country is so much higher. And when I go out to events and I do samplings and I talk to beer drinkers, a lot of folks still really aren't aware of what's going on in the craft beer industry. So there's still a lot of education that we can provide and that was one of the main drivers of Breaking Brews was putting some education out there so people can better understand what's going on in the industry and what's going on with these products.Logan:That's an interesting benchmark that you mentioned there that the number of brewers before the prohibition. Is that a common milestone in the craft beer business? And are there things that were happening back then that are happening now? The same way?Jason:I think it's, it's obviously changed a lot in regards to how beer is made. Brewers have pushed the envelope to the furthest degree possible and then a little bit more. You see a lot of crazy ingredients going into beers that probably pre-prohibition they weren't putting donuts into stouts and Twinkies-Logan:What were they doing?Jason:Breakfast cereal. I know it's like they weren't living their best life at all. However, a lot has changed. It's just the question of people's tastes have changed too and it's what do they want? And that's what these brewers are constantly trying to stay on top of, is what does the beer consumer want to drink today? And that's why I think you see such a variety out there in the market.Dan:Is it fair to say that it's easier to start a brewery round now or at least, somebody can be in their basement and actually trying to kickstart their own beer?Jason:That's probably the biggest misconception is that it's so easy to start a brewery because it's like any other business.Dan:Look, I've seen the Drew Carey show and he had a brewery in his basement. I know how this works .Jason:That's one of the big problems when you see some of these breweries that come out and their beer really isn't that great. They're standing around with their friends in a circle and all their friends are drinking their beer saying, "This is the best beer I've ever had. You need to start a brewery." And that's all well and good, but if they don't have a business sense that goes along with making a good product or even a subpar product, if they don't manage it properly, it's just not going to succeed. So it's just like anything else. I think that the barriers to entry are a little bit less because a lot of people have done it, but the smart thing to do would be go into it knowing that it's a business and you have to do all the things that you would normally do to run a business, or partner with somebody that can handle that end of your business for you.Logan:Partner with someone like Jason, Jason Cercone.Jason:I am for hire. I am here if anybody needs assistance. I'd be happy to help.Dan:Have you ever, you yourself, have you ever actually started ... Well maybe not started your own brewery, but have you ever brewed your own drafts?Jason:I've partnered and done some collaboration beers with a few different breweries across town. I did an event last year where I partnered with Yellow Bridge Brewing out in Delmont. I just went out and brewed with them for the day and I was able to say that I helped and I call that a collaboration. And I've done that with a couple of other breweries too. And that's fun. I mean that's the brewing side of it for me. I've always been more of a beer drinker and I like to obviously talk about it and promote it and market it. Brewing it just wasn't really something I wanted to do full time. It's a hard job. I think that's where a lot of people look at that like a glamorous thing and brewers will tell you, those are long days. It's very industrial and they work their asses off to put together a good product. End of the day, they are dog tired.Dan:Sure.Jason:So yeah, important. If you're going to be a brewer, know you'll be working hard.Dan:Right. We talk about hard work there. We're talking about having a good business sense. What do you see are some of the secrets to say these successful craft brewers and the people that maybe ... even some of these breweries that say are smaller, let's think about Southern Tier years ago, nobody knew who they were. Now they've got their own brewery on the North shore and what are some of the secrets to some of these businesses that have made it?Jason:I think it's understanding how to grow and being very deliberate about it and not trying to just shoot the moon right out of the gate. Obviously you have to establish a loyal fan base and make good product at the same time. But if you try to go too heavy, if you're a small local brewery and you try to make a statewide distribution, your number one priority, chances are you're not going to succeed because you don't have the liquid to supply the markets. So there's a lot of different aspects that you have to look at, but probably the most important is to use a popular phrase of our time, stay in your lane, and understand what it takes to build that brand from the ground up.Jason:Don't try to get too far ahead of yourself before you're ready. And then once the time comes where you've established that brand, then you can start looking at ... popular thing now other than distribution is looking at secondary spaces. We're starting to see some breweries in the Pittsburgh area open up secondary spots so they've proven that their brand is good enough to support it and we wish them the best in carrying that out.Dan:Who would you point to as some really good success stories in the Pittsburgh area then and what they've done successfully?Jason:Oh man, that list is long.Dan:Yep.Jason:Yeah. One of the breweries that I work with, the Spoonwood brewing in Bethel Park.Dan:I was there just this weekend.Jason:Awesome. What'd you think?Dan:I loved it. It was my second time there. I had a great time.Jason:Yeah, they're doing great beer. Great food. It's a great tap room atmosphere. You really can't ask for much more than that. They've been ... they're coming up on five years.Dan:Wow.Jason:And I've been working with them since pretty much the beginning and we've been building that brand and we don't do a ton of distribution, but a lot of the beer that we put out there ultimately was just to build that brand and give people an opportunity to taste it. To where they might say, "Wow, this is in Bethel Park. I'm going to go down there and see what else they have to offer." Another brewery I work with is Four Points Brewing out of Charleroi. They've ... just under two years old at this point, actually just about a year and a half now and they're killing it. They're doing some great beer and then you've got a lot of the names that people hear of all the time, like your Grist Houses and your Dancing Gnomes and Voodoos and Hitchhikers of the world. Again, we could sit here and do a whole podcast where I just rattle off the list because there's a lot of good beer happening.Dan:Well, you're in luck, our next segment, we're going to list breweries for the next 25 minutes. All right.Jason:Yeah. Close off with reading the phone book.Dan:Exactly.Jason:Riveting radio.Logan:Now you've learned a lot of these techniques and methods. You have over 20 years’ experience in marketing and sales. Did that start off in beer, or and if not, how did you navigate into the beer industry from that?Jason:That was ... I mean that was broken compasses for days, man, that was ... No, it did not start in beer. I've been working in the beer industry – counting what I did with starting Breaking Brews – for going on six years now. I sold cell phones right out of college, landed at Enterprise-Rent-a-Car for several years after that. Ran Hair Club for Men here in Pittsburgh for about four years. And with Breaking Brews, when I started it, it was ultimately just to build something that I felt was a good resource that could teach people how to gravitate to these beers in a very approachable way. Because as I learned, a lot of people just weren't aware of what was happening around them. So I was able to parlay my skillset from all my years in the professional world into a business that now I can help the breweries and help the different businesses that I work with do sales and marketing and create a good customer experience. All those good things, all things that are very important to building a good brand.Dan:Bring it back a little bit locally here to ... Pittsburgh I feel like is ... we've got a pretty special relationship to beer here. And it's some pretty big names in terms of, you think of Iron City, Duquesne, there's obviously Rolling Rock used to be around. How do you feel like the city's adopted and adapted to this craft brewing? I don't know if you could call it a Renaissance because it hasn't been around until right now, but this upsurge right now that people are ... they are doing with craft brewing.Jason:Yeah I think with the breweries now, I mean obviously as we spoke about earlier, we've got over 50 across the region now. It says a lot for the fact that people are going to go to a good brewery regardless of where they're at. It's become very neighborhood centric where you look like an old neighborhood pub, that's in some respects, being replaced by the local neighborhood brewery. You're seeing them essentially on every corner, quote unquote. And I think that helps with the fact that these guys are able to grow their brands so well because then it expands beyond their neighborhood as well. But yeah, we have a very rich history here in Pittsburgh with beer going back years and years back to ... I mean, Iron City was the beer.Jason:And I think now you're starting to see more of a shift towards the craft brands and many of them have been here for ... You look at East End, they've been here for 15 plus years now and they really were setting some good trends for what could happen and how people could gravitate towards a craft brand. Same with Penn Brewery. I believe 1986, was when they hit the scene. So a lot of good things have come along that have really helped push it forward. And now Pittsburgh is becoming one of those hot beds and I shouldn't say becoming it already is. And probably our closest rival in the state, just like everything else, is Philadelphia. And I think both of us have a tremendous beer scene that we can be proud of.Dan:Yeah. I think if you ever see a Penguins, Flyers game, it looks like more than a few people have beers.Jason:Well now, you see breweries have gotten in with the rivalries, like Grist House, and I'm forgetting the brewery that they partnered with out of Cleveland, they did a Browns, Steelers rivalry beer.Dan:Oh did they really?Jason:Rivertowne and Sly Fox had partnered up a couple of years ago for the stadium series. And they did a ... Glove Dropper was the name of the beer. And they worked together on that and sold it in both markets and worked out really well.Dan:All right Jason, well thanks so much for being here with us, for everybody at home. If you're listening, make sure to visit. If you're interested at all about starting a brewery and perhaps finding ways to market it and get it out to the world, you can go to breakingbrews.com. Look for Jason Cercone and also look for Breaking Brews podcast. You can find that on all the major platforms including Apple podcast, Stitcher, Google play, Spotify, iHeart, all the big ones where you can find us. And Jason, thanks so much for being here.Jason:Thanks again guys. Appreciate it.Logan:Sure thing.Dan:Great.Logan:Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires, as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story. WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest, or partner with you through our patented story crafting process, visit WordWritePR.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Paul:It's now time to talk about the biggest building that is not in the downtown skyline. We are talking about what is known in the travel trade as a headquarters hotel. In other words, if Pittsburgh were to host a very large convention, a large hotel would be designated as the headquarters hotel. In many cities, this is a large hotel that's attached to the convention center.Dan:Right.Paul:And that typically has somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand rooms.Dan:Right.Paul:Pittsburgh – yinz don't have one of those n’at.Dan:Oh, they do have a hotel connected to the convention center, right?Paul:Yes, yes. We do the Weston and actually Dan, I'm glad you mentioned that.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Because in the original plans for the convention center development, that hotel was supposed to be about twice as big as it is and if it were, it would be the size of a headquarters hotel.Dan:Sure. Well, I think that is, it's interesting that you're bringing this up and I think we rewind a little bit. The reason we're bringing this up is, on February 3rd, in the Post-Gazette, Craig Davis, who used to be the CEO of Visit Pittsburgh.Paul:Yes.Dan:Yeah. Visit Pittsburgh is the local-Paul:It's the Convention and Visitor's Bureau in part supported byPaul:Our tax funds and they promote the city to businesses like conventions.Dan:Right, yeah.Paul:But also to leisure travelers.Dan:Draw people into the city. Yeah, it's important. Yeah. This article, what it did with, again with Craig Davis here, he had a piece of parting advice for Pittsburgh is how Mark Belko, the writer introduced this and he did a really nice job with this piece. Craig wanted to build a convention center hotel.Paul:Right.Dan:And that's what we're talking about here. And there's a lot of back and forth about whether it should be done, whether ... what kind of impact it would bring on the city here. And he had some really good information about it, yourself, but a lot of people, they want to see more here. And that's what we're talking about today.Paul:Right. So in the tourism and convention industry in Pittsburgh, this is the third rail of politics. Nobody really wants to talk about it. And I look at this article in the Post-Gazette, Visit Pittsburgh, great organization. Craig Davis, very effective leader and he's been hired to run a similar organization in Dallas. Smart person. He's in Dallas now, so he can kind of say, what maybe he couldn't say before when he was in Pittsburgh. And for people in his business, his line of work, you need to have a convention center hotel. The thing is, to build that would cost about, Oh, kind of like the same amount of money to build PNC Park or Heinz Field.Dan:Right? Yeah. In this article here, they have an estimate of $350,000 to $400,000 a room to build.Paul:Or in other words-Dan:That's all.Paul:Yeah. $240 million.Dan:Right. That's for a 600-room hotel.Paul:Exactly.Dan:Yeah.Paul:It's a lot of money. And it was not easy to get PNC Park and Heinz Field built. There was actually a referendum on the ballot one year that failed. It was called the Regional Renaissance Initiative. I mean we put renaissance in the name of everything, don't we? And it was after that, that a deal was brokered. A lot of critics said behind closed doors and smoke-filled back rooms that wound up producing Heinz Field and PNC Park. There doesn't seem to be a lot of political appetite for spending that kind of money, again.Dan:Right.Paul:On something like a convention center hotel.Dan:Again here, Mark did a great job with this article here and he put it pretty succinctly here. He said, "In recent years, Davis' pitch has landed with all of the enthusiasm of a root canal."Paul:Yes.Dan:I don't know about you guys, I get too enthusiastic over root canals, but I suppose not many other people do, but the article does bring up a good point. That there's been a recent hotel building boom in the region, in the downtown area, particularly across the river. Some other smaller hotels that have cropped up here and there, the Marriotts and whatnot.Paul:Many. You could throw a rock from where we sit right now, we can hit the Monaco.Dan:Absolutely, yeah.Paul:Throw it across the way, hit the Embassy Suites. We've got the William Penn, which has been here for a long time. The Drury is in the old federal reserve building.Dan:Right and that's just a block away from the convention center. But the kind of full service hotel that, again, this is from the article here that Mr. Davis would see here, that would require huge public subsidies. And that's-Paul:Yes.Dan:I think the sticking point that it comes down to.Paul:That is the third rail part.Dan:Whether we want this here and I think it's one of those things where you balance. You say, "How much are these conventions going to be worth compared to the costs, the investments that you have to make in a city here." And it could take a while until the scales tip one way.Paul:Well, and what's very interesting about this is, there are statistics, there don't seem to be any statistics readily available to say, "Yes, Pittsburgh, you should do this." What we tend to fall back on, are a couple of really great seminal events. First was the Bassmaster Classic several years ago. And still of course people who don't know Pittsburgh want to depict it as a smoky mill town. And we had this freshwater national competition for bass fishing. And it went off really great. And that's led, as Mark Belko's article points out to Visit Pittsburgh getting into seeking sports events. And we've had, I can't believe this, I didn't even realize this number, 22 NCAA championship events have been held in Pittsburgh and we've got more coming.Dan:Yeah. Just recently they had the National Women's Volleyball championship out here.Paul:Yeah.Dan:And I think a big part of that comes down to, they now have a world-class arena to do it in.Paul:Yes.Dan:Where Civic Arena definitely showed its age after a while.Paul:Right.Dan:That plays a different part here. But certainly the downtown hotel building boom assists with that.Paul:Absolutely. Absolutely.Dan:Convention centers is ... that's a little different. And again, I think what, Craig Davis is trying to say here is, having it connected to the convention center, people love that. It's very convenient just to grab an elevator, have a little sky walk over to the convention center. It's not always a feasible immediately though, it's nice to think of these things, but it's hard to find room for it. And whether you're going to supplement what is already there or again, it takes money.Paul:Well, my point about Bassmaster, the other thing that happened of course was the G20 in 2009. Those two events put Pittsburgh, reputation-wise, on a world stage. In the article, Mark Belko talks about Milwaukee, which is a nice enough town and they have a baseball team that has a better record over the last decade of a postseason-Dan:They spend more than the Buccos, but that's a-Paul:They do.Dan:That's a whole other podcast.Paul:However, in terms of the hotel market, not quite the same size as Pittsburgh and they're getting the Democratic convention this year.Dan:Absolutely.Paul:Why does Pittsburgh not have that sort of convention? And if we did, aside from the monetary benefits of the convention itself, what would it do for the city in terms of raising the reputation even more and bringing more convention business to Pittsburgh? It's hard to say. It's also hard to argue that it was really cool to have Bassmaster or certainly the President and world leaders for the G20. That was awesome exposure for Pittsburgh. This is kind of a question of how much is the region willing to spend? And apparently it's going to have to spend something, in order to create that kind of environment.Dan:I think what's important when you look at these national conventions, particularly in the political arena, that is strategic by the parties too.Paul:Oh yes.Dan:Wisconsin's very important in this upcoming election to the Democrats. As is Pennsylvania.Paul:Right.Dan:But they were also in Philadelphia not that long ago, so do they want to spend so much more time in Pennsylvania and look, Wisconsin, the people ... whenever they do the Monday morning quarterbacking of that election, they did not spend all the time there. So it's ... they're showing ... it's a quite a statement that they are spending the time in Milwaukee for this upcoming convention. But it also shows that if Milwaukee can host something like this, then, so can Pittsburgh.Paul:Why not Pittsburgh, yeah.Dan:I think Pittsburgh actually held the very first Republican convention that was back in the 1860s or so. And we had the hotel rooms for that one, I guess. You know.Paul:We did.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Well, country was a little smaller then.Dan:Indeed. Yeah.Paul:Might be a difference, but I think this is a topic we're going to come back to again, so we wanted to put it out there for everybody. Again, props to Mark Belko and his article and the truth speaking, shall we say, of Craig Davis. We'll have to watch the skyline and see where this one goes.Dan:Well, most importantly, just as a final coda to this, and Mark's article did describe this a bit at the end, for the leaders that want to see this kind of change, that want to see a hotel down here, they have to show their work. It has to be ... You have to come to ... with studies from respected institutions, respected people, who are proving that, "Okay, hey, when Milwaukee hosted this type of thing, if they had a hotel here, this is the impact that they would have got."Dan:There are other areas here in Louisville and Columbus that are building hotels. What will those hotels do for their ability to draw conventions? Are they stealing them from Pittsburgh? You have to come up with that information. You have to present it to the leaders, not only in our government, but the community to approve ... like, "Hey, okay, some of tax dollars should go to this."Paul:Absolutely.Dan:And if you can do that, if you can convince enough people, then maybe it happens. But that stuff takes some time too.Paul:Well, and just a final thought on this since Craig Davis left Visit Pittsburgh, they are engaged in a search for a CEO. So I would expect that once a new CEO is named, one of the first things that we should be looking for, is some thinking around this topic.Dan:Absolutely.Logan:And we are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at p100podcast.com, or wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Twitter at Pittsburgh100_ for all the latest news updates and more from the Pittsburgh 100. 

Thomas, Tony, and Kendall discuss three special guys: Paul Lynde, Karl Baer, and Jack Baker.

Episode 10 kicks off with a little Nick Diaz and if he should fight again. Also covered in this episode are a few fights that should be made in the UFC, the Fighter of the Year Award so far, a boxing champion wants to try MMA, and what should be next for the UFC Moscow winners! Plus in the Final Bell, why the KSI and Logan Paul boxing match could be great for MMA! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/steve-king6/message

Daniel Lofaro’s PhD project made its public debut on an unlikely stage. His research in end-effector velocity control of non-planted robots (robotic throwing) enabled his HUBO humanoid robot subject to throw out the first pitch of the 2012 Major League Baseball season in front of 45,186 fans.Daniel is Assistant Professor in the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering at George Mason University, and the director of the laboratory Lofaro Labs Robotics which is apart of the international laboratory group called the DASL Autonomous Systems Lab Group (DASL Group).Additionally, he's a affiliate faculty at the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) in the Navy Center for Applied Research in Artificial Intelligence (NCARAI) within the Laboratory for Autonomous Systems Research (LASR). As a NSF-EAPSI and ONR-SFRP Fellow, he received his doctorate from the ECE Department at Drexel University in 2013 under the guidance of Dr. Paul Oh. He was the Research Lead of the DARPA Robotics Challenge team DRC-Hubo from 2012 to 2014.Host: Per Sjöborg, Robots in Depth is supported by Aptomica.His research focus is in the overarching field of real-world robotics. Within this his research interests include Swarm Robotics, Emergent Behaviors, Robot Design, Real-World Human/Robot Interaction, Humanoid Robotics, Complex Control Systems, Secure Robotics, Cloud Robotics, Unique Musical Instrument Design, and Real-Time Systems. Research interests include Complex Control Systems and Robotics with most recent ventures relating to Robot Design and Cloud Robotics. Daniel's dissertation title is Unified Algorithmic Framework for High Degree of Freedom Complex Systems and Humanoid Robots.This podcast is part of the Wevolver network. Wevolver is a platform & community providing engineers informative content to help them innovate.Learn more at Wevolver.com

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England speaking with Katia from Mexico. Today we are speaking about friends and money. Katia, if a friend came to you asking to borrow some money, what would your reaction be?Katia: If I have a good friend that really needs the money then, of course, if I have the money, I would probably lend it.Paul: So, in what situation would you lend your friend money?Katia: Well, for example, it's a person that is really trying their best to have money and it's in a situation that it's an emergency and needs the money then I would lend it. What about you Paul?Paul: Yeah, I would lend... I would be a little bit nervous to lend close friend money because I think that money can sometimes affect a friendship.Katia: I guess that's true. Do you have a bad experience with it?Paul: Actually, I do. Yeah. I've had a bad experience of a very close friend of mine. He was asking for money from me and at first just once and then twice and then he started asking for more money and it actually had a big effect on our friendship.Katia: Are you still friends?Paul: Oh, we're not. We're not friends anymore, but he did buy his car.Katia: Oh, wow! This was for a car.Paul: Yeah, he kind of cheated me out of a lot of money, so he was working as well and he was trying to save some money and in the end he bought his car but he lost his friend.Katia: Yeah, I guess that's very difficult to say, but what about... would you ask for money if you need it?Paul: Personally, I think before I asked a friend for money I would prefer to either ask my parents or my sister. How about you if you were in that situation?Katia: Well, if I had no choice, and not asked my family, I could ask my friend. Of course, he has to be a very good friend and for a very good reason for me to ask for money.Paul: So could you lend me some money, cause I'd like to go to Hawaii next week?Katia: Well, Paul let me think about that one.Paul: OK. Thank you.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England speaking with Katia from Mexico. Today we are speaking about friends and money. Katia, if a friend came to you asking to borrow some money, what would your reaction be?Katia: If I have a good friend that really needs the money then, of course, if I have the money, I would probably lend it.Paul: So, in what situation would you lend your friend money?Katia: Well, for example, it's a person that is really trying their best to have money and it's in a situation that it's an emergency and needs the money then I would lend it. What about you Paul?Paul: Yeah, I would lend... I would be a little bit nervous to lend close friend money because I think that money can sometimes affect a friendship.Katia: I guess that's true. Do you have a bad experience with it?Paul: Actually, I do. Yeah. I've had a bad experience of a very close friend of mine. He was asking for money from me and at first just once and then twice and then he started asking for more money and it actually had a big effect on our friendship.Katia: Are you still friends?Paul: Oh, we're not. We're not friends anymore, but he did buy his car.Katia: Oh, wow! This was for a car.Paul: Yeah, he kind of cheated me out of a lot of money, so he was working as well and he was trying to save some money and in the end he bought his car but he lost his friend.Katia: Yeah, I guess that's very difficult to say, but what about... would you ask for money if you need it?Paul: Personally, I think before I asked a friend for money I would prefer to either ask my parents or my sister. How about you if you were in that situation?Katia: Well, if I had no choice, and not asked my family, I could ask my friend. Of course, he has to be a very good friend and for a very good reason for me to ask for money.Paul: So could you lend me some money, cause I'd like to go to Hawaii next week?Katia: Well, Paul let me think about that one.Paul: OK. Thank you.

 In this episode of the P100 Podcast, our hosts Paul, Dan and Logan welcome Nicole Chynoweth from the Carnegie Science Center to discuss the center’s new exhibit on mummies. From there we move on to the science of fear, and then on to hockey with their guest, Jeremy Church. This episode wraps up with a review of some unique Pennsylvania town names. We bet you have your favorites.----more----Full transcript here:Logan: You are listening to the P100 podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news culture and more because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the P100 Podcast, we're happy to have you back for another episode. I am Dan Stefano, I'm here with Logan Armstrong. Logan.Logan: How's it going?Dan: A pleasure to have you with us and Paul Furiga will be joining us in a little bit. Today's episode we're going to be talking about mummies. Not your mothers, not like that Logan. I see you, that's what you're thinking. No, just having a pleasant thought, thinking about dear old mom. No, Okay.Dan: Now, we're actually going to be talking about the mummies that you might think of whenever you think of ancient Egypt and other parts of the world here. There's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center - Mummies of the World, and we're really excited to talk with someone from the Science Center about that.Dan: Afterward, we're going to be discussing the science of fear. Keeping with us, somewhat of a Halloween type of theme here. Then, we're going to be talking about, what everybody knows, it's the beginning of hockey season. Logan, you excited about that?Logan: No. Dan: No. You're not excited about hockey. Okay. Well, I am and some other people in the office, and we're going to be talking with one of them about the growth of youth hockey in the region, which is really something that's taken off in the past few couple of decades here in Pittsburgh. And we're going to finish up with Logan and I being just as serious we are now. We're going to talk about strange Pennsylvania town names. So if you make it to the end, you're going to be in for treat on that one.Logan: Oh yeah. Stay tuned.Dan: Okay, so let's get going. All right guys, for this segment we're going to talk about mummies. In particular, mummies of the world, the exhibition. It's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center and from the Science Center, we have Nicole Chynoweth. Nicole, thanks for being here.Nicole: Thank you for having me.Dan: Absolutely. Thanks for being with us here. And can we talk a little bit about your own role within the Science Center here. Can you tell us your position and a little bit what you do?Nicole: Sure. So, I'm the manager of marketing, public relations, and social media with a focus on exhibits and the Rangos Giants Cinema.Dan: Great. What does that entail then? I mean, that I imagine you you are working with a lot of different positions there. Right?Nicole: Yeah, it's a really fun job. I get my hands in everything from new movies that we have coming out at the Rangos, educational films to the exciting new exhibits that we're bringing to the science center, from space topics, planetarium related things, and mummies-Dan: Really cool, it seems like a fun place to work. Right?Paul: Nicole, you've had your hands in the mummies?Nicole: No.Paul: Okay. The promotion of the mummies.Dan: The promotion of the mummies. Paul: I'm sure we'll talk about some of the technical aspects, but that would seem a little gross, but...Nicole: I don't think so. I find the exhibition more fascinating than I do creepy. And I'm not a fan of scary movies or I did not watch the Brendan Fraser mummy movie.Paul: You didn't?Nicole: No interest in that.Paul: I did watch those.Dan: You're missing out on a classic from the 1990s.Paul: Yeah. Well, classic is a little strong-Dan: I think it should have won an Oscar, but that's just me.Paul: Okay, Dan. We'll talk about that another time. So Nicole, when I think of the science center, I think about some of the other things you mentioned. Space, technology, mummies?Nicole: Yes, mummies are, especially this show, the mummies featured in Mummies of the World, the exhibition is, have so much to offer in terms of scientific, anatomical, biological information that we can still learn from today. So what I find really exciting about the mummies of the world is that it focuses on both natural mummification and intentional mummification. So, you might be more familiar with intentional mummification. That's the type that was [crosstalk 00:04:15] practicing in ancient Egypt. Correct.Nicole: And we do have some examples of Egyptian mummification in the show, but this also takes a look at the natural mummification process that can happen when conditions are at such a level moisture wise, temperature-wise that is able to naturally mummify a body, be it animal or human.Dan: Right. Well, it sounds like some pretty amazing things to see...Paul: Yeah, it's fascinating.Dan: What are some examples maybe of the intended mummification that we'd see there? I mean, is there anything from, I guess everybody knows about Egyptian mummies but then, they're also South American. What else might you see?Nicole: So an interesting example of the intentional mummification process that aside from like the Egyptian mummies that are featured in the show, there is Mumab, also known as the Maryland Mummy. In the nineties, two scientists at the University of Maryland decided that they wanted to try their hand at an Egyptian mummification process. A man had donated his body to science, and so they started the process of mummifying him. So, you can see Mumab in the show.Nicole: That's just an interesting way of seeing how we are still learning thousands and thousands of years later about how this process works and the tools that they had to use to complete the process and what the body has to go through for mummification to occur.Dan: That's really cool.Paul: Did it work?Nicole: I've been told that it's still in process, it's not completely... He's not completely mummified yet.Paul: Take some time?Nicole: Yes.Paul: Wow. Something I never knew.Dan: That's pretty awesome. Can you tell us what else is in the exhibit then? I mean, are there any, you say interactive portions to it. What should people and families expect whenever they're inside here. It's not just, as you'd be at a museum taking a look. I mean one of the great things about the science center is it kind of hands-on.Paul: Hands-on. Yeah.Nicole: Yes. So in addition, to the 40 animal and human mummies and 85 rare related artifacts, visitors will also be able to look through several interactives related to different topics within mummification. I think a favorite among children will definitely be the, what does mummy feel like a station where you can touch different types of mummified materials, so there's like frog skin, fur. Mummified fur, different things like that they'll be able to touch these like textile panels that are examples of what those things feel like.Nicole: Another great interactive is there's a large map that shows where different types of mummies have been found all over the world, which I think is really important to look at from the perspective of which, like you said, we are so used to just thinking about Egyptian mummies.Paul: Yes.Nicole: And really there are mummies all over the world, [crosstalk 00:07:15].Paul: So not to be surprised?Nicole: Yeah.Paul: You never know where you might find a mummy!Nicole: Right, right.Dan: Okay. Well, people will hear, we can see Mummies of the World through April 19th that's correct, right?Nicole: Correct. Open through April 19th. It takes about 60 to 90 minutes to get through the exhibition, for parents that are maybe wondering if the exhibition is appropriate for their children. We do have a family guide available at carnegiesciencecenter.org/mummies, that might answer some of the questions parents have before they take their kids to the exhibition.Nicole: But I really believe that it is appropriate for all ages and I think people will take something away from the show, be it a new interest in archeology or anthropology or just being able to connect with the backstories of the mommies that are featured in the show. You get to know them. They're more than just a mummy in front of you. You learn their story, how they lived, the way they lived, where they were from. So, super excited to have it at the science center and to be able to offer this experience to Pittsburghers.Dan: That's great. Anything else happen at the science center lately?Nicole: Yes. So, it's Halloween season.Dan: Yes.Nicole: What better time than to experience a scary movie on Pittsburgh's largest screen?Paul: Very good.Nicole: The Rangos Strengths Cinema teamed up with Scare House, this year actually for Rangos x Scare House. We co-curated some Halloween movies together to offer Pittsburgh a really exciting lineup for the Halloween seasons. So we have coming up the Universal Studios Classic Monsters. We're showing the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Frankenstein and Dracula, on October 11th through the 13th.Nicole: We also have Dawn of the Dead 3D showing October 25th and the 26th. And that's a really exciting screening because they don't often show the 3D version. So if you've seen Dawn the Dead before, I can guarantee you have not seen it like this.Dan: This is the original one?Nicole: Yes. This is the original Dawn of the dead. Yes.Paul: In 3D.Nicole: In 3D.Paul: Have you seen it, Nicole?Nicole: I have not seen it. I'm not a huge fan of the scary movies, but I've been told that if there's one I should experience at the Rangos this year. It's probably this one.Dan: All right? Just how big again is the Rangos?Nicole: So we are a certified giant screen. The screen itself measures 72 by 38 feet.Paul: Wow.Nicole: We also have 45 surround sound speakers. Your average theater has 14.Paul: Dan, if you and I can get that past our spouses and into our basements. I think that'll be good.Dan: I might have to tear down a wall or two in my basement, but I think I can handle it.Paul: You know, it's all about the purpose, Dan.Dan: You know what, we're trying to fix more damage to begin with. So I think I could get this Rangos a screen down here. That'd be perfect.Paul: It'd be very nice.Dan: Nicole, how can people find out more about the Carnegie Science Center, both online and in social media?Nicole: Sure. Visit us at carnegiesciencecenter.org or find us on Facebook. Carnegie Science Center or Twitter and Instagram @Carnegie S-C-I-C-T-R.Dan: Okay. Thanks so much for coming on Nicole. We appreciate it.Nicole: Thank you.Paul: Yes.Dan: All right guys. We were just talking about mummies and now we're going to... mummies, if you'll look back at it, they're famous movie monsters, some of the old ones from the 30s, some of the more recent mummy movies and whatnot.Paul: Brendan Fraser.Dan: Exactly, yeah. I love those horror movies and I love being scared. I love this time of year whenever we get a chance to go out to a haunted house. Me and my wife try to do one at least once a year. She's not wild about them, but I have a great time. Even right now in a couple of days. I believe the scare house is going to be reopening the scare houses. One of the more popular attractions around the area of this third winter.Paul: Award-winning.Dan: Award-winning, correct. Yeah. They had to move from Etna and they're in the Strip District. I think they maybe even changed the name to reflect that, but I think, it's interesting that people love to go to these things and they're so well attended.Dan: You see the lines around the block just to be scared and so I've had a chance to go look at the psychology of fear here, and there's an interesting phenomenon that researchers have found called VANE. It's V-A-N-E, and it stands for Voluntary Arousing Negative Experiences. Logan or Paul, you guys ever felt anything like that? Do you have any voluntary experiences?Paul: Yes. Dan, some people call that work?Dan: No. Yes.Paul: I've absolutely. So, I mean, I'm the old guy in the room. You think back to when I was a teenager, the voluntary arousing negative experience was to take the date you really like to a scary movie.Dan: Okay.Paul: I think we're going to get into this Dan, some of the why this is in... Things that people will voluntarily do you, you might not have expected a certain level of affection from your date, but if you took her to a scary movie, there would be the involuntary reaction when something happened on the screen of-Dan: Them getting closer? There you go. That's clever.Paul: Yeah. Well, and it's all this time at least all the scary movies.Dan: I think, when you look at some of the research here, what they point at, one of the most important parts of that is that it `is voluntary and that people were making a conscious decision to go out and be scared. And a lot of that is about overcoming stress. And you might go in with another person, you're working together to try to get through this shared experience here, fighting the monsters, try not to punch the actors who are just trying to have a good time and scare you.Dan: But they get a chance to get outside of themselves, and as we said, face a fear and there's really a great quote here from a woman named Justine Musk. Her quote says, "Fear is a powerful beast, but we can learn to ride it". I think that's just a very good succinct way to put it. But our good friend Logan here, you were actually a psychology major for a couple of years at Pitt and you know a lot about fear.Logan: Yes. So, as you said, I was a psychology major for a few years. I really enjoy just kind of how humans work. But so basically what it is that you have a part of your brain and it's a little almond-shaped lobe called a medulla. But, so basically what happens is that you're, when you see emotions on people's faces or when you see something that would cause you to emote in a certain way.Logan: So, say you see you're out in the wild and you see a lion and you're like, well that's not good. So that message sends to your medulla, which then sends to your limbic system. And if you guys are aware of the limbic system, it's your fight or flight response.Dan: Yes, okay.Logan: When you experience these negative arousals, that kicks into high gear and that pumps adrenaline through your entire body, your pupils dilate, your bronchitis dilates, just you're in this hyper-aware zone, and that's where adrenaline junkies get it from.Logan: It's a similar thing to where you're experiencing fear where you might be scared, but your adrenaline is pumping so much and it's releasing so many endorphins and dopamine that you end up enjoying it.Dan: Well. Okay, now we know whenever we either go to a haunted house or if we go see the mummies exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center, none of us are going to be scared because we know all the science, and we just know what's going on in our brain.Paul: Well, I mean this is also why people like roller coasters shout out to the steel curtain at Kennywood. Because they know it's safe. Right?Dan: Right.Paul: The experience is scary, but it's safe. When you go and see a movie. Yes. You sure hope so. You see the movie, you know it's going to be an hour and 20 minutes or two hours or whatever and when it's over, you may have been scared during the movie, but you're okay. The same with the rollercoaster, three minutes and then you're back in line, right it again. Right? Because you've enjoyed that safe experience of being scared.Logan: And it's the same concept where it's going back to my earlier example. If you see a lion in the wild or you're going to be scared. But if you go to the zoo, you're going to think it's cute or whether somebody else tickles you, you get a reaction, but you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's not a threat.Dan: Well, we do see a lot of alligators on the streets of Pittsburgh these days, so I don't know. You know what I mean. Maybe we'll see a lion the next, but I don't know that's all there is to know about fear or at least a good introduction for it. So, yeah. Logan, thanks for the knowledge there.Logan: Sure thing.Dan: Yeah. Maybe you should have stayed as a psychology major.Paul: He won't be here helping us today.Dan: That's a fair point.Logan: Now he's like "you really should've stayed a psych major"Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires. As we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At Word Wright, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency. We understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: Word Wright helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process, visit wordpr.com to uncover your capitalist story.Paul: All right guys. It's a fun time of year because the penguins are back in action. We're all hoping that they can get back to the Stanley cup this year. Who better to have on our vice president Jeremy Church here at one of our vice presidents here at WordWrite. Jeremy, you're involved with hockey and can you tell us a little bit about that?Jeremy: Sure. I've been fortunate to be involved with the game for nearly 40 years now as a player and a coach. Grew up starting about eight I guess in Michigan. Then we moved here in 10 continued to play, went away to prep school and played all through prep school Junior A, was fortunate enough again to play in college and then the last 17 years at various levels. I've been able to coach.Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, Who do you coach with?Jeremy: Right now, I'm coaching my younger son. With 11 Hornets, youth hockey organization. Prior to that, I helped with the high school in Mount Lebanon for five years. Coached at Shady Side Academy for a year and again using the word fortunate was able to go back to the Prep school. I played at Culver Military Academy and coached there for six years and it's a pretty storied program.Paul: That's fair and awesome. Well, Pittsburgh's got a long history in hockey going back to the turn of the century here, pretty much and but from a lot of people, the history and hockey didn't start until Mario Lemieux got here in the early eighties and Jeremy have a fun story about Mario Lemieux actually.Jeremy: I do. There've been two big booms locally when it comes to the growth of the sport. And certainly the first one had to have been when Merrill was drafted back in 1984 so we had just moved here from outside of Detroit and moved to the South Hills and we went to South Hills village one day and the mall was still there. At the time it was Kaufman's Department Store, which is no longer there.Paul: Oh yeah, the mall's there now just no Kaufmann's.Jeremy: So we're walking through and there's a little table set up and there are two or three people sitting there, one of them towers over all the others. And as we get closer and closer, there's no line at all. Mind you, it's Mario Lemieux sitting there signing autographs before he'd ever played a game.Jeremy: So, we walked up to the table, got his autograph. He still really couldn't speak English that well. But if you could imagine today the kind of stir it would create if Mario were around talking at to anyone in any environment. It was the exact opposite back then. I still have the autograph today.Paul: What did you get autographed?Jeremy: They had little teeny pamphlets of him in his Junior A Laval and from the Quebec Major Junior League Jersey, and that's all they had to sign. I think it was him. And it might've been Paul Steigerwald because at the time he was head of showing Mario around town and Mario, for those who don't remember when he was 18 actually lived with a host family in Mount Lebanon for the first year that he was here when he was 18.Paul: Yeah. Well, like I said it, whenever he first got here, he lived with Lemieux.Jeremy: Yeah, he returned the favor.Paul: Well, since that day, whenever there was no line at Kauffman's, today there was no more Kauffman's and you would have a gigantic line. But so what can you say about just seeing the growth of hockey? Especially from a youth hockey angle here, you've been front and center with it your entire life?Jeremy: It's pretty remarkable. Doing a little research earlier and in 1975 there were basically two rinks that you could play out of indoor rinks for Youth Hockey: Rostraver Gardens, which is still around and Mount Lebanon Recreation Center, which is still around.Jeremy: By 1990, when I was in high school, there were 10 and now that figure is roughly doubled to around 20 in the region. There are 62 high school teams and there are 28 organizations in the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League. And within the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League, there are now 5,600 players. And that's for those who are around playing in the eighties or growing up in the eighties and early nineties here, that's almost hard to believe there's, you know that there are 28 organizations, but if you go down through the ranks of 18 and under 16 and under 14, 12, ten eight and under age groups, there's dozens and dozens of teams at various levels all throughout that.Jeremy: So, for last year at the ten-year level, ten-year-old level, there were 80 plus 10 new teams in PAHL, Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League League. So pretty remarkable.Paul: Right, Yeah. The majority of those kids, they're probably not going to be heading to the NHL, but a lot of kids want to at least, pretend that they're one of their heroes and get involved in the game. And I think one of the problems, maybe not a problem with hockey, but one of the issues surrounding it is there is a perception that there is a bit of a barrier to entry. You've got to have skates, you've got to have pads, you've got to have a good helmet, you've got to have a good stick. There's a lot of, there's a lot to that kit there. Jeremy, there are easier ways for kids to get involved in the game today though, right?Jeremy: Yes. Part of the Testament to the Penguins organization and certainly as Sidney Crosby has been, his emphasis and involvement with youth programs and youth hockey initiatives. And not just in Pittsburgh, but I know as well back when he returns to Canada in the summer and throughout the year, he likes to give back to the community.Jeremy: But a big initiative that started, it's now celebrating it's 10 year anniversary or 11 year anniversary is the little Penguins learn to play hockey, where Sid partnered with Dick's sporting goods to give, what is now I believe more than a thousand sets of free equipment out to kids who want to start playing the sport. So that goes hand in hand with a program that I think runs six weeks, eight weeks, in January, February to get kids introduced to hockey.Jeremy: But to your point in that, the big barrier to entry is the cost of equipment, which can be several hundred dollars even for kids that are five, six, seven years old. So that's certainly got a lot of kids involved in the game and has led to those massive increases in participation that I cited before.Paul: All right, that's awesome, Jeremy. Well, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about hockey. We're hoping for another good season from the Penguins. Maybe a longer playoff run than last year. We got a bit of a break last year. I think they earned it after winning a couple of cups. But yeah, thanks again and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.Jeremy: No problem. Thanks to you.Dan: Right. This next segment. We're going to learn a little more about our co-host Logan Armstrong. Logan is from Eighty Four, PA.Logan: That I am.Dan: Now, we got talking about this and it got us, we started, you know, going down a rabbit hole and we got discussing why 84 was actually named 84? At first, I thought it was named after the construction company the-Logan: 84 Lumber.Dan: Yeah, 84 Lumber, and it turns out I was wrong. That 84 is named after 84 PA, and there's a lot of history and a lot of different theories about how the town was named. Logan, do you want to go through some of them maybe?Logan: Yeah, sure. So there are a couple theories. 84 is quite the town. There's not much in it other than 84 Lumber, but you know, it's nice. There are a lot of theories on how it was named, the most popular of which is that it commemorated Grover Cleveland's 1884 election victory. Some other theories were that it's on mile 84 of the railway mail service. My favorite though is that it's located at 80 degrees and four minutes West longitude. This seems like the most probable to me.Dan: My favorite actually is apparently in 1869 general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton had an outfit of 84 soldiers with them and held off an attack of Outlaws. Now that just sounds fantastic. Yeah.Logan: That sounds quite heroic. If that is the case. I am proud to be from 84 PA.Dan: Maybe you're a descendant of general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton here. Is that possible?Logan: Yeah. I believe I'm Logan "Crazy Toes" Armstrong.Dan: Okay, keep your shoes on man! We don't want to see anything. Well, after this, after we talked about 84 we also started taking a look at some other weird names for towns in Pennsylvania here and if you go online, you can find quite a few of them. Logan, what were some of the interesting ones you like you?Logan: There are quite a few to choose from. A couple of my favorites were, while the all known intercourse, PA, which is actually the most stolen sign in Pennsylvania, where it says "Welcome to Intercourse" for good reason.Dan: Obvious reasons.Logan: Right. Going along that same route, a rough and ready PA was, they named it after a California Gold Rush town, so I guess they're rough and ready to get some gold out there. Can't blame them for that.Dan: I imagine that sign is also been stolen many times.Logan: Right. Okay. Then, well, let's play a game here. I'm going to give you some Pennsylvania town names and you're going to tell me how you think that those names came to be. How's that sound?Dan: Bring them on. I'm a repository of knowledge.Logan: Okay, great. Peach Bottom.Dan: Peach Bottom. This is simple. This is extremely simple. Everybody in the town of Peach Bottom is very short, and they're, but they're also Peach farmers, so they can only see the bottom of the peaches that come from the trees. It's kind of a shame because they've never seen the peach tops.Logan: That is a shame. Those peach tops are so beautiful.Dan: We have an actual reason why it's called Peach Bottom?Logan: In fact, Dan, you weren't too far off, Peach Bottom. Got its name in 1815 from a peach orchard owned by a settler named John Kirk.Dan: John Kirk was very short, as we all know.Logan: Right? Yes. Okay. Shickshinny, Pennsylvania. What do you think of that?Dan: Schickshinny. Ah, got it. Okay. Shickshinny is named after a famous dance created by the person who created Schick shaving blades. Fun fact, a few people realize that he had a dance. Whenever he would cut his face on his old rusty blades, he would do a little jig-Logan: A little jig!Dan: In a big thing because it can... to get the pain away, and so he decided I've got to create a better, more comfortable blade and so he created the Schick shaving blade.Logan: Well, I foresee-Dan: Everybody knows this.Logan: I've foreseen the future...We had the Whip, we had the Nae Nae. Next, we're going to have the Shickshinny going on in all the clubs in Pittsburgh.Dan: I think this one is actually one of those Indian words that have made a lot of Pennsylvania names here.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an Indian word that either means the land of mountains or land of the fine stream.Dan: Or land of the cutting your face on your favorite razor.Logan: Yeah, I think that's the most common translation. Yeah.Dan: Sure.Logan: We are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at P100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Twitter @Pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news updates and more, from the Pittsburgh 100.

Welcome to another episode of the P100 Podcast. Today we cover our own Port Authority. Robin Rectenwald shares with us some local getaways inside tips. Director, Dawn Keezer from the Pittsburgh Film Office talks about on location in Pittsburgh. This episode winds up with Pittsburgh Polyphony spotlight - Flower Crown.This Episode is sponsored by WordWriteCenturies before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Here is the full transcript from this episode:Logan: You're listening to the P100 Podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: All right. Welcome back to another episode of The P100 Podcast. I'm Dan Stefano. I'm here with Logan Armstrong.Logan: Good to see you again, Dan.Dan: And Paul Furiga, who'll be joining us just momentarily.Dan: Today's episode, we've got four segments for you. First, we're going to be discussing public transportation in both Pittsburgh and other American cities. We're going to talk with Dawn Keezer of the Pittsburgh Film Office, which will be a lot of fun. It was a really good chat with her. We're going to discuss quick getaways you can take outside of Pittsburgh. Sometimes you got to get away, and we'll be talking with Robin Rectenwald of WordWrite for that one, and then we'll finish it up with talking about a good local Pittsburgh band for our Pittsburgh polyphony series. Excited to hear that, so let's get to it.PORT AUTHORITYPaul: All right guys. Let's talk planes, trains, and autonomous automobiles. A little shout out there to the old John Candy movie.Dan: That's a classic movie.Paul: It is a classic movie.Dan: Steve Martin too, right?Paul: Steve Martin, that's right. Yes indeed.Logan:Much before my time.Paul:Oh, you got to see that movie.Dan: Logan, you weren't even alive.Paul: You weren't alive, but you can stream it.Dan: Is it John Hughes?Paul: Yes. I think it's a John Hughes film actually, one of the-Dan: Okay. See, I know my movie stuff.Paul: ... few he did in that era when it wasn't all about teen angst. But speaking of teen angst and public transportation, it seems like a perennial topic in the news in Pittsburgh, is how to get from point A to point B. And I just don't mean the topography. For instance, if you drew my street on a map, it would look like a lasso, you know the old cowboy thing?Dan: Sure.Paul: You can get onto Courtney Place, the street I live on, and turn left on Courtney Place and go around a circle and turn left, and you're still on Courtney Place. That's another issue. What we're talking about today is, maybe because of things like that, how difficult it is to get from point A to point B. And the importance of public transportation.Paul: And so, recently Dan, Logan, we were looking at the news about the Port Authority starting or considering some 24-hour transit routes. And Logan, I know you're an Oakland denizen, some of those routes would head out that way, that we'd start with you. Thoughts?Logan: Yeah, I'd be a big fan of that. I know that they're only considering really the heavier routes, which obviously make sense. You don't want to have empty buses going all night, but I think that would be really helpful.Logan: I know there have been a few times where, whether I'm in Oakland or elsewhere past midnight or so, I mean, it gets pretty scarce trying to get to point A to point B, and there are Uber and Lyft, but Pitt students have Pitt IDs and they get free Port Authority rides, and so, I mean, you're going to expect college students to be out pretty late, so I think they should be able to take advantage of that. So I think it's a great idea.Dan: Well, it's not only for the college students too. I believe one of the aims behind the Port Authority trying this is to help people who might work late shift. Those late shift workers who, maybe they're not done until 2:00 or 3:00, and they're working at least on some areas near these routes and it really helps them, and I think they're important to have for modern city living.Paul: You know, one of the challenges that we've had in the last several years is funding for public transportation. I think that still is a huge issue. Now we have competition for public transportation.Paul: Logan, you mentioned ride sharing, Lyft or Uber. And of course Pittsburgh is a hotbed for autonomous vehicle development, and it made a bit of news a few weeks ago when the CEO of one of the companies here in Pittsburgh that are testing autonomous vehicles, Argo AI, wrote a medium blog post in which he said that that company will never build autonomous vehicles for personal use.Paul: And I think a lot of people were figuring that, again, remember my street, it goes in a circle, that Uber and all of them were here because they were ... If you can figure out how to drive in Pittsburgh in an autonomous vehicle, you could drive anywhere in an autonomous vehicle.Paul: I don't know. Dan, what do you think? Autonomous vehicles in your garage? Yes? No?Dan: I don't know. Maybe a personal vehicle…that'd be a difficult buy-in. I think it's one of those things where just in my life I've always had a car that I drive myself. I mean, obviously if, say in the future there are babies that are born that only know autonomous vehicles and might be used to it for them.Dan: But I can say that I have been in an autonomous car. And I've had the AI driving me around. I took an Uber once that was an AI car, and obviously there were two people in the front seats, one behind the wheel who just had, was a little bit hands-off, and then another with the computer taking in all the data. It was a really cool experience.Dan: But one part that, at one moment we were driving through, I believe it was Bloomfield or somewhere along Baum Boulevard, and we came to one of those classic Pittsburgh 19-streets-meet-at-once intersections. And there was somebody coming in the opposing lane who had made a sharp cut in front of us. And the car made a really sudden stop. And so, I was talking with the operators about it and they said one of the problems that, problems or issues or minor things is, these AI, they still have to take into account other people's decisions. And that's really where I think that that's where the work has got to be done yet, in autonomous vehicles here.Dan: And so, it's going to be tough if not every car out there is going to be driven by another robot, you know?Paul: Well, and you know, Dan, we were talking about this earlier, and if you think about it, if every new vehicle after some date and time were autonomous, you would still have, what did you say? 200 million?Dan: I couldn't tell you how many-Paul: Millions.Dan: ... cars are out there, but probably hundreds of millions of cars.Paul: Non-autonomous vehicles.Dan: Right. Precisely. So it's going to take a while before this stuff is at its scale and it's the only thing available.Logan: Yeah. You can map streets all you want, but you can't really map human decision making.Paul: Well, one thing we know for sure, the topic of getting from A to B here in Pittsburgh is not going to go away anytime soon. So on some distant future podcast, look for us to update our musings on getting from here to there.Dan: You're going to keep complaining about that lasso, aren't you?Paul: I am.GETAWAYSDan: All right. For this next segment, we have Robin Rectenwald. And she's an account supervisor here at WordWrite.Dan: Robin, thanks for being here.Robin: Thanks for having me.Dan: Absolutely. We wanted to bring you in because a couple of stories recently that we had in the 100 discussed some short getaways that you can take from Pittsburgh here. And there were both some really interesting luxury type locations, and Robin, one of those places that you went to was Bedford Springs Resort in Bedford, PA. And you talked about just being your first solo trip, but also just seemed like a really cool, unique place that was a quick little drive away.Robin: Yeah. My best friend had actually told me about the Omni Bedford Springs Resort. She needed some time away, she was going through a really stressful time in her life. And so, years later I finally was able to take the trip for myself. It was on my to-do list for a while.Dan: Sure. Well, it seems like it's pretty cool to take one of these trips, and it's really just in your backyard, too. And I think maybe a lot of people don't quite realize all of these ... You don't have to go all the way to the coast. You don't have to go to California or something, Florida, to find a really great vacation. And did you find that?Robin: Yeah, that's what I loved about this trip. I actually am someone who doesn't like to drive very far distances by myself. I'm a little bit of a drowsy driver.Dan: That's really safe, to be on a Pennsylvania turnpike as a drowsy driver!Robin: Yeah. But this one was quick and easy. It was literally on the dot two hours. So yeah, just getting there was super easy. I felt comfortable going by myself.Dan: Right. And was it as relaxing as it claimed to be?Robin: It was beautiful. I really did feel like I was in paradise. The hotel itself is beautiful, it's historic, so you go in, it's these big staircases, these old elevators, this creaky floors. It was just taking a step back into time into, like the 18 hundreds.Dan: It's kind of like The Shining hotel before it became The Shining hotel. Right?Robin: Much less creepy.Dan: Right, yeah. No Jack Nicholson bursting through your door. That's good to know.Dan: Logan, you recently wrote just recently in the 100 here about some pretty cool little cabins through a company called Getaway.Logan: Yeah, quite a fitting name. I had seen one of their ads on some social media, and-Dan: Social media has ads?Logan: I know, right? It's incredible.Dan: Wow.Logan: But so, they're these cabins, they're just 45 minutes from Pittsburgh. They're in Lisbon Creek, Ohio, tucked right next to a state park out there. And yeah, I mean, they're cabins across these 59 acres of land, and I'm definitely trying to make it out there. I haven't yet, but they look beautiful and they're nice and away from wifi so you can just let yourself go. But so, I had seen one of their ads on social media and I've now been barraged with Getaway ads for the past two weeks on every single social media platform.Logan: But yeah, it's 45 minutes, something just quick and easy, you can getaway. It doesn't take too much time off work if any at all. Just go out there for the weekend and just relax.Dan: Right? Now those cabins are actually next to Beaver Creek State Park. So very close. And I edited that story, so I have a lot of ads from Getaway right now, too. It's great.Dan: I think one thing that is cool to remember here is that we can take these small trips, and it's such a great time of year to get away and be into the country. Do you guys like going out, maybe doing some hiking, going to see some fall leaves? Robin?Robin: Yeah, I'm actually going on a train ride with my mom, the end of September. It's in Elks, West Virginia, and they have these four-hour train rides. So yeah, another quick getaway.Dan: Right? When I was a kid, I took a, it was all the way up in North Central PA. We took a trip through the --Robin: Oh, Kinzua Bridge?Dan: Yeah. Which, I don't think that exists anymore. I'm pretty sure it got blown down-Robin: No, it's still there. I was just there in May.Dan: Oh. I could have sworn it got blown down in a storm. I guess I'm completely wrong.Robin: It's partially did, so you can actually go there and see a partial bridge, and you can hike underneath it. It's pretty cool.Dan: Oh wow. That's really cool. Yeah, so I remember it being very high, so that's pretty cool.Logan: Yeah. I also love going out to Ohiopyle, or Ohiopyle depending on who you ask. But that's great. It's probably a two, two and a half hours. You can go out there and see Fallingwater while you're out there. Yeah. Lots of hiking trails.Robin: Kentuck Knob.Logan: What's that?Robin: Kentuck Knob is another Frank Lloyd Wright's house right nearby Fallingwater.Logan: Oh really?Robin: Yeah.Logan: See, I did not know that. I’ve got to put that on the list.Dan: Right. Well, I think the important thing to take away from this is, everybody, we've got some really great fall weather coming up, some really awesome leaves to see and foliage, and everybody should definitely take advantage of these locations that are just a couple hours away.Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.PITTSBURGH IN FILMPaul: Well, welcome back everybody. I'm Paul Furiga, I'm publisher of the Pittsburgh 100 and President and Chief Storyteller of WordWrite. And we are pleased today to have with us Dawn Keezer, who on September 24th will celebrate 25 years of running the Pittsburgh Film Office.Paul: Logan, that's just hard to believe, isn't it?Logan: Yeah, no, it's awesome. I'm glad that we have such a great organization here in Pittsburgh. It does wonders for the city.Paul: Dawn, welcome.Dawn: Thank you.Paul: Tell us a little bit about the film office and what you folks do.Dawn: Well, the Pittsburgh Film Office is an economic development agency that focuses on marketing Southwestern Pennsylvania to the film industry. And that includes everything from feature films, television shows that you see on TV, commercials, documentaries, corporate videos. Anything, I used to say, anything rolling any kind of film. Now it's anybody using their iPhone that's doing anything on a professional level. We're helping them make that happen here in Southwestern PA. We represent all 10 counties in the region. Some people don't realize how big a reach the film office has.Logan: Tell us a little bit about your day-to-day role in the film office and what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.Dawn: Well, we have a huge staff at the film office. There's three of us that work there full time and that includes me. We all do a little bit of everything.Dawn: I've been there a really long time, so I'm the go-to both for our relationships with the government officials who really help us make everything happen when we're closing streets and closing bridges and need help getting into places like SCI Pittsburgh, but essentially the film office is a one-stop shop for the film and entertainment industry.Dawn: Whether they need permits to close streets, whether they're looking for an office supply company to give them their copier machines, for lumber for to build their sets, to find local crew. Anything that's going to involve their project moving forward, they call the film office and we're the ones that help them make that happen.Paul: When Logan and I were talking about this segment, Dawn, we were talking about the history. One of the cool things that people always talk about with Pittsburgh is that so much happens here with film and with TV, but that didn't happen by accident. Tell us how the film office got started and why.Dawn: Well, the film office got started, as I was told, I'm the second director, Robert Curran was who actually was here when they started the film office under the Greater Pittsburgh Office Of Promotion. It was all being operated, I'm showing you guys, because I like to use my hands, but it was in the bottom drawer of a person working in Mayor Sophie Masloff's office at the time. He'd pull out a drawer, go, "Okay, what do we do with this one?"Dawn: And when Silence of the Lambs decided to film in Pittsburgh, they went, "Wow, we've really got to step this up."Dawn: So the Greater Pittsburgh Office Of Promotion created the Pittsburgh Film Office. Russ Streiner, who's our current board chair, actually founded the film office with a few others, and they really started professionalizing the whole approach. By the time I got here it was an established film office, but it was really about making sure the community is protected and the clients, the film companies, are getting what they want done and accomplished.Dawn: Pittsburgh looks great, but everyone feels good about it at the end of the day.Paul: I think, and Logan, chime in here, but most people in Pittsburgh, and I'm making a generalization here, but I think they're proud to see Pittsburgh in TV and film, but we don't really have an understanding as Pittsburghers of how this all really works.Paul: An economic impact of 650 million, you said?Dawn: Well, that's how much wanted to be spent here. And it is.Paul: Wanted it to be spent.Dawn: They wanted to spend here. We're going to be lucky to retain about 200 million of it.Paul: Oh my goodness.Dawn: And this is money spent throughout the entire economy. The big spend, of course, is on our local crew, which we have some of the most experienced, amazing craftsmen that work in this, craftsmen and women, who work in this industry throughout the region.Dawn: Our crew is so good people travel them. They take them elsewhere because if they're not working at home, they leave. And in the old days they were lucky to stay. I say the old days prior to the film tax credits, they were lucky to be here for one film a year, and then they would go work in different states, in different places. They've all been able to stay home now.Paul: Well, let's talk about that for a second, because, in Pennsylvania anyway, it seems like certain legislators get upset about the size of the credit. But from what I've seen, our credit's not really that big compared to other states.Dawn: Our credit is woefully underfunded and oversubscribed. We needed $127 million dollars to retain all the work that Southwestern Pennsylvania had for this year alone. And we have to share the film tax credit with our friends over in Philly. We're one of the only states that have two production centers, meaning two places where people film.Dawn: I equate the tax credit to a 25% off coupon you get at your local store. This is money coming in. We're giving them 25 cents on every dollar they spend after they've spent 60% of their budget in the commonwealth. And they have to prove this. They fill out forms, they're audited. We know where every dime is spent on every single thing they do well before they ever get their tax credit certificate.Dawn: We just keep having the conversations and hopefully, we'll get to the point where they go, "Oh, we really do need to increase the film tax credit."Dawn: Georgia has a 30% uncapped tax credit. I told you, we had topped 1.5 billion this last year, and that's since 1990. Georgia had six billion dollars’ worth of film work last year.Paul: Wow. Now that is just amazing.Dawn: And they're looking for other places to go. If you look at the level of content that's being created right now, with the growth in all the streaming channels and everything else, they're all looking for homes. It's Netflix, it's Disney, it's Amazon. All our clients, they've all been here, they're all coming back. They're all, it just ... We have an opportunity here to really grow it, and I'm really hoping we get to capitalize on it this year.Logan: Like you said, everything you're saying makes sense. I would think that just pounding the nail and then hopefully it gets through some people's heads and realize that there are two production centers here and that that would bring so much money into our economy that otherwise goes unspent.Logan: Through your 25 years though, it sounds like people have wanted to less have Pittsburgh as a double, and actually want their film set in Pittsburgh. Would you say that's correct?Dawn: It's really interesting. It's a great question because we've really seen a growth in the number of shows that set it here. And primarily we're getting more people to write Pittsburgh into the scripts. There's more work being created. It saves them money when they set it in Pittsburgh because then they don't have to worry about, "Oh, there went a police car that's got the wrong logo on it, there goes -Paul: Re-badging, resigning things, yes.Dawn: ... everything."Dawn: We've seen a huge increase in that, which has been fun and it makes life a lot easier for everybody. And it gives us some great marketing.Dawn: Sometimes not so much. Right? Sometimes it's not a storyline that Pittsburgh would want to promote, but again, it's a movie. We're not portraying real life here, or a TV show, whatever it happens to be.Paul: That's great. So, as Pittsburghers, what can we do to help the film industry here thrive and grow?Dawn: Well, what we're really lucky about, I always tell people there are three main reasons anyone films here. It's the tax credits, it's our crew, it's the diversity of locations.Dawn: The fourth unofficial one is the film friendliness of Pittsburgh. We welcome these projects with open arms. We still are excited about it. Yeah, sometimes they block your driveway. Sometimes they're in the way, and we deal with all this usually minor inconveniences that happen throughout the region, but for the most part, we're very supportive. So we'd love for that to continue when people really get to know how friendly our region is.Dawn: Our website is pghfilm.org. We're on all of the social media channels, Facebook, Twitter, everywhere else you're supposed to be these days. It's important that you go check in on what's happening, and if you want to be an extra, we put that information up on our website. We really try to keep things up to date and current as possible.Dawn: I mentioned we have three full-time employees. I have a full staff of interns, they're amazing, from all the local major universities in the region, and they're charged with getting all that stuff updated, so they've been doing a great job. But it's really just checking in and staying supportive.Dawn: And for the legislators that are listening, are you people out there who have friends that are legislators? It's important to remind them that the film tax credit affects the entire region. Not just the people who see the direct impact, but the entire region. We're all benefiting from this economic development generator. And the goal with the tax credits was to not only have an incentive but to build an industry sector. We've done that. Now we need to start building infrastructure and getting purpose-built sound stages and getting some things moving.Dawn: Just supporting the film industry as a whole, as a real viable business in the region, it's really the key.Logan: Great. Well, thank you so much for being here, Dawn. We really appreciate you being here and giving your info and knowledge and expertise on this. This has definitely given me an expanded view of what the Pittsburgh Film Office does. And so, yeah, just thanks for being here.Logan: This is Logan Armstrong and Paul Furiga with the P100 Podcast, and thanks again.Dawn: Thank you.FLOWER CROWN MUSICLogan: Okay, Dan, coming into our next segment, I want to take a couple of minutes to spotlight a local band, Flower Crown, who is on the Crafted Sounds record label, who is a local record label which is run by my friend, Connor Murray. They're doing a lot of great things. But Flower Crown is, I would call them dream-pop, very hazy, very ambient, chill.Logan: My first introduction to them was when I heard their song Bender Szn, it landed on Spotify's Fresh Finds Six Strings playlist, which is a pretty prominent playlist in the platform. It got them a lot of good exposure. As an artist, you're always looking to get on playlists like those.Logan: But yeah, I know you had a little chance to listen to them. What did you think?Dan: Yeah, I think that dream-pop is maybe a good way to describe them. I hadn't heard that term for a genre until you brought it up to me. Until you introduced me to this band here, but I'd agree with it. They'd be nice to just have, put them on for a good mix, a good playlist for a long drive or something like that. And just a nice, kind of soothing, but they do a pretty nice job with their instrumentation. They sound good. So yeah. Excited to hear some more.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It's a five-member band. And what I like about Flower Crown is that while the music is, like you said, it's great for a long road trip. It's very just, you can kind of get into it. They create their own atmosphere. I haven't met them personally, but from what I've seen on social media and in the public, they're pretty likable guys.Logan: Their profile picture on Facebook has one of them in a big hot dog suit. One of their single covers has them taking off, the guy's in an alien suit, they're taking off his alien head, almost like a Scooby-Doo character. It's nice to be able to see bands that you're able to relate with and are still making music on that scale.Dan: That's awesome. What are we going to hear from them coming up?Logan: Yeah. As I mentioned earlier, I think a great introduction to them is Bender Szn, off their latest project called Sundries, which came out in May. It's a great little single to head out into your day. Very chill. Great for a day like this in October. So yeah, I hope you enjoy.

On tonight's show, Maureen talks about panic attacks. What they are, what they may be an indicator of, and how you can cope with them. She also speaks to Dr. Paul Oh, GoodLife Fitness Chair of the Cardiac Disease Prevention and Rehabilitation Program at the University Health Network in Toronto. Exercise is important, but how much, and how can you start? As well, Maureen chats about relationships, dynamics, and how power can dictate a lot of things.

Andy and Dave discuss Simulated Policy Learning (SimPLe), from Google Brain, which attempts to help reinforcement learning methods learn effective policies for complex tasks, such as Atari games (using the Atari Learning Environment, ALE); the method trains a policy in a simulated environment so that it achieves good performance in the original environment. From Google and Princeton University, the TossingBot learns to throw arbitrary objects into bins; research use “residual physics” to provide a baseline knowledge of the world (e.g., ballistics) to further improve tossing accuracies. Researchers at Rutgers demonstrate a probabilistic approach for reasoning the 3D shapes of unknown objects, as a robot manipulates its environment. DeepMind publishes results that use the AI itself to figure out where the AI will fail. And research from Northwestern, University of Chicago, and the Santa Fe Institute examines the dynamics of failure across science, startups, and security efforts. In clickbait-y news, scientists create an AI that can predict when a person will die (when in actual, they used machine learning methods to examine prediction of premature death, and compared with standard epidemiological approaches). Researchers create a memristor-based hybrid analog-digital computing platform to demonstrate deep-Q reinforcement learning. Microsoft demonstrates end-to-end automation of DNA data storage (21 hours to encode the word “hello”). The US Air Force is exploring AI-powered autonomous drones in its Skyborg program. Keen Security Lab of Tencent reports vulnerabilities of Telsa Autopilot, to include inducing the vehicle to switch lanes. A paper in the Springer AI Review Journal provides a survey of ML and DL frameworks and libraries for large-scale data mining. Los Alamos Labs publishes a survey of quantum algorithm implementations. Scott Cunningham publishes Causal Inference. Yaneer Bar-Yam makes a 2003 work, Dynamics of Complex Systems, available. Easley and Kleinberg publish Networks, Crowds, and Markets: Reasoning About a Highly Connected World. Andy highlights a sci-fi story from 2008 from Elizabeth Bear, Tideline. Paul Oh pens a fictional story of the Army’s C2 AI program, Project AlphaWare. The National Academies-Royal Society Public Symposium will hold a discussion on 24 May, AI: An International Dialogue. More videos appear from DARPA’s AI Colloquium. A website compiles datasets for machine learning. And Stephen Jordan provides a comprehensive catalog of quantum algorithms.  

The owner of Identified Talent Solutions, it's a talent recruitment company and this company has grown to the point where it's in the ink 500 Paul David   Stefan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. Respect the Grind with Stefan Aarnio. This is the show where we interview people who have achieved mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors, anyone who's achieved mastery and examined what it took to get there. Today on the show we have Paul David. He is the owner of Identified Talent Solutions, it's a talent recruitment company and this company has grown to the point where it's in the ink 500 of feet. Indeed Paul, welcome to the show. Respect the grind. Good to see you, my friend. Paul: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me Stefan. Stefan: Awesome. Yeah, I love having guys like you on the show because we got so many real estate people. I'm a real estate investor you know, I teach flipping houses and rental properties and stuff like that. And I love having someone from a different field and so for the people at home who don't know you that well Paul, tell us how'd you get started in the talent recruitment business? That's something that I'm sure is an awesome business. I've just never thought about it. So how did you get started? Paul: Sure. It was about 15 years ago, right out of college. I got into a firm that does third party recruiting. So basically they provide candidates, they provide employees to other companies. I did that for about six months. Very salesy position. Didn't think I was very good at it. I was really, really shy back then. But then I went into a mortgage company, they shot as a recruiter, mortgage was booming back then. I learned my whole entire trade from that particular point. After 10 years I decided, well it's about time to go on my own, utilized a lot of the relationships that I had over my 10 year career and I built the business basically in my garage. Stefan: Wow. I love stories where it starts in the garage. I think Apple started like that. All of these, I think Harley Davidson started in the garage. They all start in garages. I think Google started in a garage too. Paul: Yeah. Amazon started in the garage. Stefan: Yeah Bro. It's great. So really pertinent topic I think is recruiting. And a lot of people listening to the show, maybe they're solo preneurs or maybe they got like two employees or one employee or they want to recruit more. How does somebody effectively recruit? 'Cause I'll let the cat out of the bag here Paul. Every recruit I've done for my business has always been a referral. I've never done well with a head hunter. I've never done well with somebody recruiting for me it's always been through someone I know and I've tried agencies before. I've spent money before for whatever reason they don't stick. The talent is good if they don't know my brand or they don't know me in advance for whatever reason doesn't go. So how do you effectively recruit talent for so many companies and how does that match really work? Paul: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I think what they need and recruitment's really tough because it's not only a matter of just the skill set that they have, but it's also how do you fit that person into a culture? Even if they have the incredible skillset. I mean that person might be really successful in one company, but then they go into a different culture and then they're completely off. So it is a little bit of a difficult process, but you said that most of your hires have been referrals. That by far is the best way to hire people in your company. Is if somebody in your company or yourself or someone that you know and trust vouches for them then that's fantastic. It's almost kind of like dating. If you meet someone and they're like, yeah, they are a great person, then generally you're going to trust that. Paul: But, if you don't have that capability, it is really important to stream that person properly. Now there's no silver bullet. So I mean you've kind of seen it. There's no silver bullet in picking the right person off the bat. I mean employment's like a dating process. So what we do is one, we're very narrow in the things that we do. So we know the skill set. So if you're a generalist and you're trying to do everything for everyone, like the larger staffing firms, it's really hard to understand what kind of skills are looking for cause you have to master one particular vertical. So what we do is we're mastering one specific vertical and understanding the skillset so the candidate is an optimal candidate from a skillset perspective. Then what we need to do is really, really build that relationship with the client. What is their team like? I mean not only the culture of the company, but what's the team like? How do they operate? What are they composed of? I mean what do they like to do? So you can look at the intangibles and the tangibles and place that candidate properly. Paul: So that's kind of how we do it. We really have to, I mean it's like a dating process. We got to make sure that we know our client really well so we know exactly what kind of candidate put in there. Stefan: I like what you say about the dating and I teach people real estate investing and they'll say, "How do I get a good deal?" And I'm like, "Bro, you got a good deal in real estate just like dating." You pick the most beautiful girl at the school, the Prom Queen. And if you go ask on stage wearing her sash that says homecoming and her tiara, you're never going to get a date. But if you wait for her to break up with her boyfriend and she's under the bleachers crying, wearing some dirty sweatpants with makeup running down her face, that's the time where you go in there and go, "Hey baby, look, let's grab a cheeseburger." And she's like, "I've been hungry for years. Let's go." And so it's really interesting 'cause I think people always try to over complicate business. Stefan: We always go, "Oh man, it's different. My industry is different. This business is different. This time it's different." It never is. It really is just dating. It's relationships. And I like what you said about, it's almost like a marriage. These two people have to come together, the culture has to come in with the skill set and it has to fold together. What do you think when you're out there recruiting people Paul, what's the most important thing that you look for in any candidate? Maybe like is it grit? Is it drive? Is it just general intelligence? What's something that when you're just meeting talent that you want to see in just about everybody? Paul: For me what I'm looking for is an intangible skillset. You can have someone that has the most impressive resume, the most impressive of education, but if they don't have a personality where they can build relationships, well I mean, at the end of the day, the fundamentals of business is relationships. If you do not know how to build a relationship, then you're just going to fail, period. I mean like, you know, I don't care how much you automate things, all the click funnels I hear, if you do know how to shake hands, talk to somebody and really build that relationship, you're not going to be successful, period. So I want to make sure that one of the things that we make sure it is how do we converse with this person? Will this person be able to influence other ... I don't care if it's an individual contributor or a manager. They need to be able to interact with people regardless if they do software development or if they're a nurse. Paul: So relationship skills are very, very important. Communication skills are very, very important and that's what we look for first and foremost. It's not a complicated thing, but I think people would really want to work with other people and that they can kind of get along. And if that happens then what happens is you build trust, right? So once you build trust, because you [inaudible 00:06:37] then you can kind of work through anything else. Stefan: I love that. So is it more, would you say, are you looking for more he EQ or IQ? I guess you're more of an EQ guy. Emotional quotient. Paul: I'm an EQ guy. I mean most of the people that I have, you know what I first did this, I was looking for skills, but when I started my company, I was looking for grit. I was looking for someone that had tenacity. Someone that wanted to improve, I can teach them the skills, I can't teach them to drive. Stefan: You just got to respect the grinding bro. Yeah there go. You've got a gong already. A gong's been hit man. I like that. You know, grit is something that in the military academies, they noticed that that's the number one thing that keeps people going. And one thing I say all the time is, I fail at 80% of the stuff I do. I'm failing all the fricking time, man. I'm an entrepreneur, so it's constant failure. And then the 20% I win on is so big. It handles all the losses and then some. Now, how would you describe grit? What is grit? What is the ability to keep going? What is that? Paul: You kind of hit it on the head. It's like for me happens after my why. Why do I want to achieve something? Why do I want to, what is it that's important to me? Once I fundamentally understand why something's important to me, then it's the dedication. What I've learned about grit is grit really is the ability to embrace failure, right? And really learn from that failure. 'Cause here's the deal. I don't care what you do in life you're going to fail. I don't care if it's walking down the street. One of these days you're going to fail. 'Cause I look at things this way, you're going to fail or you're going to succeed. And those two instances for failure, I'm going to learn something. I'm going to learn something really quick so it doesn't happen again. And if I do that, then I'm going to succeed. So I try to rush into failure as much as I can. Paul: I try to embrace it as much as I can and I look at it, I think being able to have grit is you can look at that failure not as a failure itself, but an opportunity to learn. Because all of us entrepreneurs, if we don't know how to learn from our failures, we're never going to be succeeding. So I've kind of looked at it in a different perspective. I actually enjoy failure because it's like, "Oh crap, I didn't do this right. Well let's try to figure out something else." So that's how I see it. So I think grit is the ability to understand that failure is more of a learning opportunity and something that sets us back forever. Stefan: I like what John Maxwell says. He says, "You either win or you learn." Paul: Yeah. That's in his book Failing Forward. Stefan: Yeah, you win and you learn. And that's just something I started to do in my life. I had some pretty hardcore things happen to me this year is what's the meaning of this? What's the story? What am I learning here? And I don't know if you ever read the book Man's Search for Meaning. You ever read that Viktor Frankl? It's one of Tony Robbin's favorites, and it's about a man who was thrown in the Nazi death camps in World War II. And he had a book manuscript, I guess he was like a scientist or something. A book manuscript he was going to publish and the Nazis took his book and they I don't burn it or ripped it up. They took it away from him. And what he noticed when he was inside the death camps was the optimist died first. So the people who were "Oh, we'll be out by Christmas, we'll be out by Christmas, we'll be out by Christmas." Stefan: Christmas comes, they die of a broken heart. But the people who lived through the death camps were the people who had meaning and they had a child to see. They had a book to write, they had a spouse to go find after the camp. And that to me when something bad happens to you in life, it's so interesting because there's two meanings. There's the victim meaning you can have, and then there's the, what am I learning meaning. Is that something you see in some of these very successful people where they have major setbacks and kind of the bigger the setback, the higher they climb? Paul: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people that have overcome tragedy, have been very, very successful because they know how to adapt to it and they know how to get over it. I think when we first started talking, I told you I never really wanted to be an entrepreneur. I was kind of forced at it where my wife died of cancer at 36 we went through a four and a half year battle with cancer. I was left with a four year old. I had $150,000 in debt. And it's like I had to make a decision at that particular point. I had to look up my why, which was my daughter. What am I going to do? Am I going to crumble? Am I going to fall apart? I mean, that's not an alternative that I want. So I did, and I had no idea how to start this company. Paul: All I know was I needed to do it. So with that intensity and that drive, I said, I have to make this happen. And after that what's all your focus is I think from tragedy, once all your focus is pointed to one direction, then you'll start to see the opportunities that you've never seen before. So, I mean, I think people that have gone through tragedies and really decided to not let that tragedy define who they are, but let their choices make them who they are, that you see magic when that happens. Because intensity to succeeding and making sure that they're never defined by what happened to them in life so. Stefan: Bro I'm giving you a gong. I love you, man. Dude, I love you man. You know that story you have. I'm so sorry to hear your wife died. I mean that's just the most brutal thing. But I love that you picked up the pieces and I love that you saw the why in your daughter. And I love that you were able to get that emotional charge 'cause so many people would have folded like a lawn chair. It's so easy. Whenever you go downtown, you see a homeless guy on the side of the street. That's someone who folded a lawn chair, but you said, "No, I'm going to use this. I'm going to use it as fuel." And it's tremendous to see what you built. Now shifting gears a little bit, Paul- Paul: I actually wanted to kind of comment on that I don't know it's going to be ... I have colleagues and friends that have children right? And every time I hear them they say like, "Well, I can't do this. I can't do that. I can't do that because I have to take little Johnny or little Cathy or little whatever to the baseball game. I can't do that." I decided and I think people should decide that you know what? You don't make your children your reason why you can't do things. You make them your reason why you do, do things. Stefan: Oh, another gong. Bro. We're hitting today. Church of the grind is in session. Damn. Instant replay on that. I want you to say that again for the kids at home. Paul, one more time. Paul: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I have colleagues and I have friends that continuously tell me "I can't do this because I have to take little Johnny, or they have to take their children or their little Kimmy to their basketball game. Their ballet practice." But you know what? You have to be able, I mean, either you're going to choose to have your children be the reasons why you can't do something or you make them your reason why you can. So that's the different mindset. I mean, you have to make your kids a reason why you can achieve your dreams. Because that's the truth of the matter is if you don't, they're going to learn from that. Don't ever make your children your reason why you can't do something for yourself because that's not their fault. Stefan: You know, it's like the old seminar story. I don't know if you've heard this story, but there's two brothers and they're identical and they're twins. And one brother says he's living in cardboard box downtown and it's raining on this cardboard box and he's with the woman that's ugly. And they fight and they hate each other and he doesn't know where his kids and he can't hold down a job. He's got no money in his bank account. His creditors are coming after him all the time and life is horrible for this guy. And he says, "My life's a failure 'cause my dad was a drunk who beat me and my mom was a prostitute, smoked weed." And then I cross the tracks. And the nicest part of town is his identical twin brother who's in a mansion, the gorgeous wife and they have great sex and they've got lots of kids and the kids love the dad and they love the mom and they'd go on four vacations a year and they got the dream car and money in the bank and they sleep well at night. Stefan: And he says, "Man, I'm a success today 'cause my dad was a drunk who beat me. My mum was a prostitute who smoked weed every day." You know that same thing happened to those two guys. But on one side, one guy says, "This is my fuel." And the other guy says, "Oh man, this thing totally devastated me." And I love your story, man. Massive, massive props to your story because I come from a family, my dad was the son of an alcoholic and he had the dad who beat him. He says "Oh, I can't do this. I can't do that. It totally froze him." And with me, I use it as total motivation you know, my why. I think these interests are the whys, you're talking about your why's your little daughter. With whys I notice it's either people's parents that they want to save or it's their kids. Paul: Sure. Yeah. Stefan: And it's just either they want to help their parents who are screwed up or fix the parents or whatever, or they want to help their kids. And you know, how important do you think Paul to have a reason and a meaning outside of yourself to succeed? It can't be all about you. Paul: Oh, 1000%. I think if you don't have a reason outside, I think as human beings we're called to do something bigger than ourselves. And the reasons have to be more than ourselves. So I think innately, if you do not have a reason outside of your own personal gain, then it's going to be futile at the end because the drive stops. The why stops. So it's like when people are only motivated about money or cars or whatever, and they get that, then what happens after that? Right? If you have a purpose that's intangible and that can create a change for everybody else and the reason outside of yourself needs to be there. I mean it just has to. Stefan: I love that. We're going back to the Viktor Frankl Search for Meaning. You know, Man's Search for Meaning. What is the meaning of all this? And I think that one thing that's common across all of our shows, you're a very successful guy, especially in the space you're in. Is that the darker people get, the more they go into the darkness, the more they're in the light. And the worse it is and the deeper that pit of despair is, I call it the pit of despair. The deeper people go into that darkness, the higher they're able to climb after. And I think there's so many people at home that want to, they want to have it easy. They want to get a job, they don't want to go through any of the risk or the pain, they don't want to have their whys die, anything like that. But in some ways, Paul this is an interesting thing, like that event of losing your partner in some ways is that the best thing that ever happened to you? Paul: Yeah. I mean it's the worst and the best thing that happened to me. When I look back at it now, it's been about five years since she's passed away. But I look back at it now and even when we were struggling, right. And it was even before that, I mean we were homeless when my daughter was born and she was three months and we were sleeping out of our pathfinder and then a year later she got cancer. I mean we were going through a lot of crap, but I look back at it now and I think about it. If I didn't go through any of those struggles, it wouldn't have made me who I am today. Because I had to choose- Stefan: I'm going that. I'm gonging that bro. Paul: I had had to choose to be better. I had to choose. And I think seeing my wife pass away at an early age, that kind of pushed me too. 'Cause I think what happens is people don't realize how delicate their life is. Right. They can always wait until tomorrow. They can always wait till tomorrow. They can always wait till tomorrow. And you never know. You never know. Like my wife never knew she wasn't supposed to die when she was 36 so. Stefan: Right, right. Well that's super young men and like most women live till like 86 or something. So it's like 50 years too early. Paul: Yeah really early. Stefan: One word that you use and that I love those, the word choose. And the one thing that no one can ever take away from any of us, even if we're thrown in a Nazi death camp, is the choice to choose. Paul: Yes. Stefan: We can always choose the meaning of things. We can choose, what does this mean? This horrible thing. Is this going to be a wake up call? Is this going to be your fuel for the future? I had a big event in my life when I was younger and it was my parents' divorce. And it's interesting, my brother loved them to pieces. He uses it as a reason why he can't do stuff. You know, he says, I remember once he was yelling at my mom, he said, "Mom, if you guys didn't get divorced, I'd be in the NHL Right now." I'm like "Really?" I'm like "Dude, I don't know about that. You're a December baby. December babies don't make it in the NHL. You've got January, February, March, April go in." Paul: You've got a lot of Malcolm Gladwell. Stefan: Yeah man. I'm a Malcolm Gladwell reader. But it's so interesting 'cause I was with one of my girlfriends at the time and she said to me. I remember she came to one of my seminars and she said "All this stuff that you do and all this that you built, you do it for him." And I said, "Who?" She didn't know me that well and I didn't know her that well but she in two seconds as a woman with her intuition knew that the education company I've built is for my father 'cause my father never had that. And that was, yeah, there's such a deep meaning there and there's such a big why and it's so much fuel. 'Cause in life you got so much shit thrown at you all the time. They just, it's buckets and buckets of shit over and over again. And the people with a strong enough why can bear any how. What do you think about that famous quote? I think it's a Nietzsche quote. Paul: Yeah. No, I absolutely believe that. I absolutely believe that things that get you through the day. And the thing that gets you through life is why are you doing it? If you don't know why you're doing it, you're like a sailboat without a rudder. I mean, you're just kind of going endlessly through and through life, you know? And I think nowadays, I look at it nowadays with how instant everything is. Postmates, instant coffee instant, instant this, instant that. We're forgetting that the true gift of success is actually the journey that you go on. It's who you have to become, to become successful. That's what the gift is, not the actual achievement. It's who you have to become to achieve that. So like, yeah and to achieve that, you need to know your why and why you do it. I mean, so yeah, I absolutely believe in that quote. Stefan: Wow. Yeah. Now, I love what you're saying about the process and you know, this show's called Respect the Grind, right? You've got to respect that 10 years, respect the 10,000 hours. You can't cut the line. And we live in Instagram life, it's Instagram, Insta popcorn, Insta sex, Insta phone, Insta everything. Right? And I wrote about my book here Hard Times Create Strong Men. It's my fifth book I wrote. And it's interesting, right now there's like a porn and video game epidemic with young men. And I did the math. It's 10,000 hours to master let's say business or something, right? 10,000 hours. Well, you can master a video game in 500 hours. So where we give up our 10,000 hour endeavor, like maybe becoming an artist or a musician or an athlete or maybe starting a business. Stefan: Those are all like really worthy things. We go play World of Warcraft for 500 hours and we're at level 100 torrent shifting or something. What do you think about, does that translate into the workforce now with you recruiting young people? I mean, are there people out there who just don't get it and they're playing their world of Warcraft but they're not willing to put in the 10,000 hours? Paul: That's funny that you're saying that because I've visited Blizzard many times for one of our clients. Stefan: Dude, I want to work for Blizzard when I was younger, they didn't return my phone call though. Paul: Oh man. They give away like swords and shields when you hit your five and 10 year anniversary. Quite an organization but to your question about the younger generation, you know we do a lot of work with this particular segment because they're the incoming generation, they have to take over in the workforce. Right. You know what we are figuring out, it's not that they're not intelligent and it's not that they're not motivated or driven. They just want to get from A to B as fast as possible. And you and I both know it's like that's not going to work. You can't master anything. I don't know taking an online course or skipping out of school or whatever it is. You've got to learn the fundamentals and the basics. It's like building a house, right? If you're building a house and you decide that you don't really want to do and you think that the foundation, you just build it on the rock side it came on, it's got to fall down eventually. Paul: So we forget that I need to build that. But yeah, I mean I think because of how society is propagating this instantness that we're having, we're not putting in the fundamental work to make sure that not only our minds are strong, but our characters are strong, our will is strong, our drive is strong, everything is strong. So it is getting a little bit harder to recruit the younger folks just because they want things more instantaneous than before. And what they do is if they don't get it, they start moving to a different place of work or something else. I mean, I think the statistics were that the new grads, the last two years of college graduates, their average tenure at a company's eight months. So after eight months they're out. If they're truly a millennial, the average tenure at a company is 18 months. So we're seeing them just take off. So even if you get into a company, there's no level of mastery yet in that. Paul: And even if you're an entrepreneur, because it seems like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur now, but it takes a lot more than 18 months or eight months to really master a craft. You can't do that automatically. And if you do, you're probably going to lose it in the end. If you get lucky, you'll make a lot of money, but you lose it in the end because you don't have the fundamental to see it through different types of market. Stefan: Yeah. You know, those numbers are scary to me, man. I mean, I'm an employer and what happened to me last year, I came out of the jungle. I was fasting in the jungle for last year's 18 days, I'm going on a 40 day water fast actually. Yeah bro. So I came out of the jungle last year and I wrote this book, Hard Times Create Strong Men because I came out of the jungle and my young 21 year old, 22 year old millennial employees were saying like, "You're mean, I don't like you. You make me feel like a piece of shit." You know, they started complaining. And I was like "What's wrong with these guys? What's going on?" And you know it's interesting 'cause their tenure, those young millennial boy's wasn't very long. Probably right in that timeframe that you mentioned. And what happened was I went home and ... Well first I had to give these guys a talk. I gave two three hour talks one week in my office of how to be a man, which is like the most, that would never happen in the 50s. That would never happen in the 60s right? Stefan: The sixties you'd like smoking a cigar and a scotch and everyone just knew how to be a man. That was a normal thing. But I give this like six hour how to be a man talk and do your work. Being a man is about your work and that's what you do. We don't have a uterus, we don't have ovaries, we can't bear children. You're a dad by proxy, but you didn't have that thing come out of you, man. I mean you planted some seeds and walked away right? Paul: I didn't do it. I did the fun work. Stefan: You did the fun work yeah. It was like two minutes. So like- Paul: One and a half. You're being too generous to me. Stefan: One and a half minutes yeah. And I'm going to give that a gong. Bang. So these young boys, they're like, "Oh man, I want to be the leader of the company. I want this big salary. I want to make all this money." And what I found that was really interesting was these boys who were complaining like teenage girls never had fathers. And it was so interesting because you know, look at the stats 50% of the couples are divorced now, the marriages fall apart. And then I don't know what the status for dads sticking around, but dad's typically don't stick around 'cause either they don't want to stick around or the laws are so bad, the guy isn't around. And then you've got this entire generation of young men raised by young women and they don't know how to be a man and show up to work. Stefan: So I wrote this book Hard Times Create Strong Men and the cycles of history go hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. Paul: That's absolutely right. Right. Stefan: And we're in this like weak man time and it's so interesting, my sales manager Ian, he had a very strong relationship with his dad. And his dad has a farm, a goat farm out East and the we're in Canada up here. And he had a great relationship with his dad and because he had a great wish up with his dad, he has a great relationship with work. And it's so interesting cause the guy with the good dad, he's a great worker, he does great work. And then the guys with problems still at my office guess what? Have daddy issues. You ever notice this where there's like daddy issues on some of these men and then they creep in your workforce and now they're bouncing after eight months. You ever notice that? Paul: Yeah. I think there's a strong linkage between how someone grew up and what their family structure was to whether it work [inaudible 00:26:14]. When people say that there's a work life and then there's a home life there's no difference. You're going to blend your personality with both. So yeah. I see there's a strong linkage. And also there's a strong link to you what you just said about your book where like, you know, when we're looking at World War II where all these young kids were born in a battle, right? They're after depression. There was a lot of adversity. But then you look at our times now we've been going through a lot of prosperity, especially in the last 10 years. I think we're both old enough to understand. In 2007 2008 there was a crash. Nearly all of us were getting our house foreclosed on and everything. Paul: So you've got these kids that have been going through this prosperity. I mean, you can throw anything at the wall and make money nowadays. And they haven't seen that [inaudible 00:26:54] yet. And then I think it's problematic in our domestic workforce too, because like especially in the technology field, because if you think about it, we've had all this prosperity and it's been a little bit easy, but then you have these emerging countries, these emerging markets like India and China that were oppressed for a long time and they're like, "Screw this shit." You know, like I want to work. Right. They were what we were going through back in World War II and the depression and things like that. So now they're becoming the very, very strong capitalistic societies that were a little bit more weak. So, I don't know it just, you made a really good point about your book because I completely agree with you on that. Stefan: Yeah. Well, they're hungry. Right. And like immigrants in America are four times more likely to become millionaires than native born Americans. Paul: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know that 'cause I'm an immigrant, so I get it. Stefan: Where were you from, man? Paul: I'm from the Philippines. Yeah, my dad- from Manila. Stefan: Okay. Awesome. Yeah, I'm up here in Winnipeg and we got, I think 16% of the population is from the Philippines. I would flip houses and I'd sell them to the new immigrants. So I'd give him the Canadian dream for like a 100 grand or 129 grand. These houses look like little mansions. Right? And I always have these customers from Manila and they'd see it and they go, "Oh man, I got to have that house." And we actually just got a Jollibee bro. Paul: Oh my God. That's awesome. Stefan: We got some spaghetti and like a chicken leg or like a mango pie. They're pineapple pie or mango pie at Jollibee? Paul: It's a mango pie. Stefan: Oh, a mango pie. I haven't been there, dude, I haven't been to Jollibee yet, but I heard they play the song, the Jollibee song and- Paul: Yeah, you got to go, man. Stefan: Man. I'm trying to look after my health here, man. Paul: You can do it once. Stefan: Yeah go try it once man. Do they have a hot dog spaghetti at Jollibee too? Paul: Yeah they do. So the Spaghetti they put a little bit of sugar in there to sweeten it up. Stefan: Oh, of course. Of course. My dad's from Sweden, so I have an immigrant dad, and I remember going to Sweden when I was 12 and we're sitting down at the table and like Sweden is like, it's one of those countries, I looked it up, I was like, what's a racial slur for a suite? They call the Spanish people spics and they call Italian people waps and I looked up the Swedish one there isn't one because they're tall and they're beautiful and they're smart. So nobody's the Swedish people. But I'm over in Sweden and it's such a developed place. And they had these like Woodfire pizzas back in the day and they had like nice little pastries, they're so civilized. Stefan: And then we sit down at the kitchen table at my aunts or great aunts, I don't even know who these family members are. We're sitting down at the kitchen table at their house and they're making spaghetti. And I'm like, "Oh damn, I love Spaghetti." You know, my mom makes a great spaghetti back in Canada. We sit down at the table and they give us these like white boiled noodles. So it's like plain ass noodles and then you know what they do. And Paul you're going to be horrified at this man. They put the ground beef like straight up on noodles. So you got just playing ground beef, not taco meat. It's just like plain like gray brown ground beef on these plain white noodles. 'Cause like in Sweden they're not into spices. It's like salt is the white band spice over there. Salt and bill pepper. Stefan: So they put the ground beef down on the noodles and then I was horrified. They pull on a ketchup bottle and you cover it and ketchup. I know Bro. Ketchup spaghettis, you haven't ground ketchup and it wasn't just white noodles. I went to house to house to house. I was like "How are you guys eating this ketchup spaghetti 'cause you know we got like Oregano, we got basil, we've got garlic, we got all these great things written in the Ketchup Spaghetti." But I digress. I digress Paul. Now, let me ask you this. A lot of young people listening to this show, 12 years old, 15 years old, 18 years old, different ages, younger people. Do you think in 2019, it's going to be 2019 in like a week. Do you think that it's still good to get a degree today? Or do you think that no degree is the way to go and just get some skills and figure it out? Paul: That's kind of a controversial topic, but I promote education. I think you should at least get your college degree. And the reason why you should do that is, and this is just what I truly believe is that college is an opportunity for you to, it's kind of like a playground, right? You're accomplishing something. A four year degree isn't easy. So it's the first step I'm trying to accomplish something before you do anything else from the studies. I got my degree in Kinesiology, which is exercise physiology. I obviously don't use that, but what I learned from college is I communicated with a lot of people. I had to collaborate with my other students. I had to do projects with the other students. I had to get them to buy into a lot of things. I was part of a fraternity, so I understood that organization. Paul: So it's much more of an experience than anything else. And that's what I grew out of. But I look back, I mean I even got my MBA, but a lot of the reasons why I did that was because of the networking progress and the ability to build relationships during that. So I was really active in college and that's why I think it meant something to me. The stats don't lie, I don't know the stats exactly off the bat, but college graduates tend to earn twice as much as high school graduates. People with masters have by 40% more earning potential then that someone with just a high school degree. Now we have to understand that, okay, well don't go to college and then start your own business. But the failure rate of business is 99%- Stefan: I was going to say 99 bro. 90 in the first five, 90 in the second five but 99 yeah, you're going to die man. Paul: Right. So it's like go ahead and not have any education and then you have nothing to really kind of I don't know fall back on I guess. And not to say that a degree is going to help you out because I'm in recruitment, so you have a degree and you don't have skills, it doesn't really matter. But what I've noticed that every time I do interview someone, someone that has been active in college and has gotten through college, they will most all the time be better communicators and be better at being able to grip through their job. So I mean, that's my opinion for whatever it's worth, I still believe in it. I come from a very highly educated family. My Dad's a physician, so I don't know, look at the statistics. Most of the billionaires have a college degree, so I wouldn't dash it I guess. Stefan: Yeah. There's a lot of BAs actually in the billionaire club, bachelor of arts, which is interesting. I got a degree in English. So I went to school, I went to music school 'cause I want to be a rock star. So my mom says, "Oh if you want to be a rock star, get a music degree." Right? So I go and I'm studying jazz of all things, which jazz, it's funny it's all over here up in Canada, 2005 so like I don't know what is this. Like 50 years after jazz is relevant. They opened this new music called Jazz [crosstalk 00:33:23] behind. So I went and got a ... I was working in the jazz faculty there and I was a professional musician and then I realized I don't want to be a jazz musician 'cause it's a very hard and horrible life. Stefan: And then I dropped out of that and I went to the business school and I dropped out of that. Then I went into computer science, I dropped out. I was very good at computer science. I wanted to work for Blizzard bro. That was actually ... And then I ended up dropping out of computer science and I went to the registrar and I said, "Hey, can you recommend a way for me to get out of here without dropping out that won't piss my parents off." And she said, "Yeah, take two poetry class, you're going to have an English degree." So now I have an English degree with a minor in music. And I remember 2008 that was when I graduated, it was May 2008 and I went to go get a job. And the only thing I could get with an English, was a call center job in the middle of the night selling luxury hotel rooms to rich people, and you actually needed a degree. Stefan: And it was, we were making minimum wage, it was just like hardcore minimum wage. And I remember having like a post grad depression about that cause I was like, "Man, I spent my whole life, I spent 12 years plus kindergarten or whatever, plus four years of university and that degree got me here to a call center job. I could have just painted houses." But here's the bittersweet flip side of it is I'm a resourceful person. So I've written five books now, I'm 32 I've written five books. I'm sure the English degree helped with that a bit. Paul: Probably. Stefan: And then Mark Cuban, the billionaire in Texas, he says that today in today's world, an English degree is suddenly one of the most powerful degrees to have because we live in the world of content. People need more and more content. All content comes from writing. And so it's interesting, I used to totally bash on my degree. I used to totally beat on it. I still beat on it, but I kind of have to shut up about it now because I've published five books. By the end of this year I'll be up to eight books. I'm an avid blogger. On the flip side though, I wrote my first book when I was 12 before I went to school. So it's an interesting thing. I think it's a catch 22. I throw out resumes with degrees in my office. When they come in, I got a stack a degrees and it's actually kind of sad. Stefan: I get guys with PhDs, they go in the garbage. I get guys with MBAs or master's. It's pretty sad man. 'Cause a lot them are applying for entry level sales jobs. Now let me ask you this, Paul. I mean degree in school versus learning to sell. What do you think is more valuable? Someone who knows how to sell and make money on commission or somebody who has some sort of degree. We don't even know what it is. Mystery box. It could just be a mystery degree. What would you say is more valuable? Paul: Selling. Hands down. If you know how to sell, you'll beat out a degree. Stefan: So, okay. I love that answer man. I mean that's powerful stuff and I think being good at sales, it's funny like the Mormons in Utah, they all go on missions and they sell bibles door to door. So they have all these fantastic call centers up in Utah for these educated smart, street smart salespeople who speak two languages or more. With learning to sell, what are some of the best places that people can go to learn to sell? 'Cause there really isn't a degree in that there isn't a school. Nobody teaches it. Where do you think people should go and learn to sell? Paul: You know what? I'm kind of lost for like where people would want to sell. I mean, like when I'm talking to my sales guys I think the most important thing before any sales techniques is again, going back to the ability to build relationships. I don't think anyone likes to be sold to, but I think in order to be an effective salesperson, you have to be in a relationship with somebody and understand what their problems are, what their needs are, right? You can't just push it on them not knowing that there is a need. Right. I think the ability to be able to problem solve is one of the highest, well, one of the most critical abilities that there is. And the only way to do that is to be able to get into relationships. Paul: So, I mean, as far as sales techniques, I mean I don't know I guess I'm kind of lost as far as I think the best thing that you could possibly do in any kind of sales is really understand what the problem is. Or who you're dealing with and get into a relationship with them and make sure that once you do it, you can understand what their problems are and then you can fix it. Stefan: Right. Right, yeah. I love what you're saying man. I got a book I wrote here about sales called The Close: 7 Level Selling. On the back I put stop selling, start serving. That's just the main thing you said nobody wants to be sold these days. But it's funny 'cause everybody wants to buy. Paul: Yeah everybody wants to buy. Stefan: And they want to buy but they don't want to buy in some salesy way where they feel like you're manipulating them. They want to buy on their own terms. So how do you make it so that they choose you? So they decide and they want you. Coming back to dating. It's interesting like the man might choose the woman he wants to date, but he has to make the woman choose him. Paul: Yeah, I mean it's the same thing I think we're talking about. If we understand what the wires. So like let's take for instance our clients. If we get into a relationship and understand okay where their inefficiencies are, what's happening, what their troubles are with their current staff, what we can do. Once we understand what's keeping them up at night and what's keeping them desperate and what's keeping them in pain, people want to alleviate pain. So the minute you understand what their pain is and then you bring up a solution, you're not selling, they're going to be buying all day long. Stefan: Bum. You know, I heard a great quote weeks ago, I was down in San Diego at a conference and one of the speakers said "All human beings, all purchases are either avoiding or alleviating pain or elevating status." Paul: Yeah, true. I would bet it's more about pain. I think people are motivated by the carrot or the stick, but I think most people are motivated by pain. They don't want it. Why do we follow rules? Well, I don't want to get in trouble, right? Sometimes people don't understand the pain. So you have to be like, "Hey, you know what? As an expert, here's what's going to happen if you don't do that." So you've got to sometimes the pain understanding that you got to do good for them. You can't just create pain and just sell them crap. You've got to make sure that whatever you are doing is going to improve their situation. And I think that's how you have long lifelines. I'm sure you see that all day long in the real estate industry. Stefan: Yeah. Well one thing I say to my, and my sales guys, I say, "Look, do what's right for the customer.: And that gets in the ethics. I think ethics is the base, then it goes the product, then it goes sales, marketing, brand. And if you do what's right for the customer, whatever that is. If you go to chick fil a and you forget your credit card, the guy comes running out to get your credit card and hands you your food. If you do what's right for the customer, if you take care of the customer, you're always going to have food to eat. Right? Paul: Absolutely. I think in dealing with business integrity is the most. I mean that's the one thing that you cannot succeed without. You cannot succeed without integrity. Stefan: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Paul, I've got some questions I'd like to ask everybody. Here's one that I love just floating by you. Now, you see all sorts of people, man, you're in the hardcore people business. You got employees, you're recruiting, you're matching with customers. You're just like, your business is nothing but people. What do you think is the biggest cause of failure in people? Paul: They lose reasons on why they're doing it. It's always going back to the why, the problems, the challenges, the obstacles, whatever they have become bigger than the reasons why they're doing it. And once you start doing that, and a lot of it is perspective, if you start looking at, okay, I didn't get this promotion, I didn't to get this client, I didn't get this. And they start looking at all those challenges and obstacles and setbacks, that starts to vary your why. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons of failure. If you don't hold onto the reasons why you're doing things, you're going to fail nine times out of 10. So you've got to want to embrace that. But if you can't hold onto the reason why the heck you're doing something like a fitness goal, right? Paul: Like, okay, I want to lose 20 pounds. I lost 92 pounds. I was really heavy at one time and I wanted to do that because I wanted to be there for my daughter, right? And it got hard. I didn't want to wake up in the middle of the morning. I mean, it's not, the first thing that I want to do is wake up and be like, "Whoa, holy crap, I'm going to run like five miles." It's like I want to go to bed, but why am I doing that? Why am I doing this? And the reason why we fail is because we forget why we're doing things. Why was it important to begin with? So that's what I feel the biggest reason of failure is. Stefan: So it's really coming back to meaning, you know, when working out to be alive for your daughter or being healthy for your daughter's there, that's way bigger than you want to look sexy at the club and that mesh shirt you bought, right? Paul: Yeah. I mean that can be motivating to people too- Stefan: Oh yeah. Right. There's, there's some sex there, right? Paul: Yeah. There's always a why. If you don't know your why, then you're never going to be able to hold on to anything. You'll feel at everything if you don't know why you're doing it. Stefan: Right. I love that, man. I think we've had a really deep conversation here about the meaning and the why and it just translates everything. Now, Paul, if you go back in time, to let's say 15 year old Paul. And you would give yourself a piece of advice time machine here, what would you say to a 15 year old Paul? Paul: Do you. Don't think about anybody else and their opinions. Whatever's you feel is going to make you succeed, you do it. That would be my advice. Stefan: Yeah. Well everybody else is taken. You might as well do you, right. Paul: Exactly. Stefan: Awesome. Top three books that changed your life. Paul: Principles by Ray Dalio. Stefan: Damn. I'm giving that a gong. Great book. Paul: Awesome book. The Bible is one I mean just from a learning aspect and then Failing Forward by John C. Maxwell. Stefan: Those are three tasty books. Let me ask you this, the Bible and organized religions have lost a lot of ground in the last 70, 80 years in the United States, why do you think the Bible is so important? Personally, I think it's like I was born into a church and then I went to university, became an atheist communist as they manufacturer over there. And then now I'm back hardcore with the book of 5,000 years of human civilization and all the things that worked and didn't. But why do you think the Bible is so important? Paul: I think because there's a lot of great fundamentals in there. I think success books have, I mean they've originated somewhere, right? Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich is to think is great right? But then if you look back at Proverbs, it says "As a man thinketh so he is. So if it's like if you kind of go back to it, I'm not saying that I'm religious or anything, but I just actually like the content of the book. The story of Job where he was really depressed and he went through this whole entire depression and then what he did to come out of that. I mean those are all very applicable things for me in my life now. I'm not a big organized religion guy, but I mean if the Bible is the most read book in the entire world, there must be something coming out of it. So I wanted to try and get my bits and pieces out of it and I've just noticed after reading it, it's very similar to a lot of the new things that we talk about. So that's why I'm like it. Stefan: Yeah, well it's so interesting. It's incredible. I did a bit of a study on it and my book Hard Times and what it is is it's the base values of our civilization. Our laws come from those value. Our entire framework comes from there. So whether you're religious or not, it's super important. And you know what else I think is really cool about the Bible. I was lecturing my secretary the other day about how to live her life as old men like me do. And I said, "Look, the Bible, you got to study it because they've already tried everything. They tried it all for 5,000 years. 'Cause there's the Old Testament, there's the New Testament. They tried it. They tried all the bullshit we're doing now. If you look at Sodom and Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, they already did this shit. They already did it, and they move on exactly how it happened or how things went down and they wrote down all the problems. So you know in advance, if you just read that thing, you can see the future because it's 5,000 years. Stefan: And I think it's so interesting how every 70 or 80 years, we always think we're smarter than the past. You know, oh, let's try out communism this time, or let's try out something that clearly does. Try socialism out I know. Yeah. Let's try out socialism. And when you read back on that text, whether it's history or not history, it's amazing because all the answers are in there. Paul: It is. Stefan: And the Bible means the book. It's the original book so. Paul: It is, I mean, I think if we don't learn from history, we're destined to repeat it right? That's the quote, right? Stefan: Right. Yeah it's money. All right, awesome. Well next question here, Paul. Talking about the young people again. This is one of my favorite questions I ask this absolutely everybody. 100% of the people on this show get this question. Come back to the young people, the millennials. What do think is the number one thing that the young people today need to succeed in this world? Paul: We just talked about him. Grit. I mean you just need to, I mean there's always going to be challenges. You need to be able to have heart and critic and desire and quite frankly you need balls man. This world is tough. So regardless if you want them to be successful, you've got to have balls. Stefan: Big massive bowling ball balls. Paul: I mean, yeah, absolutely. If you want to be anything you got to have balls 'cause the opposition to be successful is so, so stiff. I mean you just have to have the biggest pair of balls ever so. Stefan: I'm giving you a gong for that one, boom. Yeah, some big balls, big ovaries, whatever you're running with there. Awesome. Paul, how can people get in touch with you man, if they want to know more about you? Paul: Sure. I have a personal website, paulmichaeldavid.com and my Instagram handle is Paul Michael David. Those are the two best ways you can reach out to me. Our company website is identifiedtalent.com. Stefan: Awesome. Really appreciate having you in the show Paul. Respect the Grind, man. Yeah, we'll have to have you on again. I thought we had a really great chat today and I really appreciate you and your story, man. Bless you. Paul: Yeah, bless you too, man. Happy holidays brother. Stefan: You too. Bye, bye.  

Vanessa Cabrera was let go of her corporate job, only to find out she was pregnant with her first child and within the same week became a single parent - what a way to start your own business. Her passion, hustle and good fortune of finding a great strategic partner gave her the base to rapidly grow. In this podcast Vanessa shares rich insights into social media which every corporate escapee should pay attention to.   There were lots of great takeaways in the episode, so grab that pen and notepad, and enjoy! Why is it important to focus on one or two key platforms for social media Why you should be growing your email list at the same time as growing social Why Instagram stories are so powerful How you get more speaking gigs by applying two simple but rarely used actions Why is it important to have multiple streams of income How to build your list from LinkedIn connections What are the best performing lead magnets/opt-ins? The value of day blocking   Important Links & Mentions From This Episode: Vanessa's LinkedIn profile Vanessa on Twitter Vanessa’s Website Top 10 Ways to Grow Your List & Audience Acuity St. Jude Children's Research Hospital Constant Contact Leadpages WebinarNinja Amy Porterfield Podcast   EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION: Announcer: Are you a corporate escapee and wasting valuable time attempting to figure challenges out on your own? Well, this podcast is for you. We bring you firsthand experiences of guests going through many of the struggles you face each and every day. We get real with no corporate BS, and now over to your host, Paul Higgins. Paul: Hello and welcome to corporate escapees, the podcast that takes you behind the scene of people who are successfully running their own businesses, hearing their war stories and motivations for making the jump from a corporate gig. I'm your host, Paul Higgins, and our guest today is someone who after years of working in corporate, met the perfect storm when she first started her new business, she found out she was pregnant and also her partner left her within a week, leaving her as a single mom with a new business. She talks about how she hustled her way through this. It was really inspiring. Also, she gives some really rich insights into email marketing and also social media marketing. So what I'll do now is hand you over to Vanessa Cabrera, welcome Vanessa Cabrera to the corporate escapees podcast. Brought to you by Build Live Give. So Vanessa, we're going to get to know lots about you today, but why don't we start with something your family and friends would know about you that we wouldn't. Vanessa: Oh my gosh. Okay. You hit me with a good one. All right. So let me see. I'll give you the scoop. Something funny that my friends, my close friends and family know about me that maybe others don't. Is that um, I'm. My last name is Cabrera. So I am Latina, but I oftentimes when I'm in a group of Latinos I oftentimes kind of like pretend not to understand Spanish, just to see if they're talking smack about me. True Story. Yeah. Paul: Very funny, very funny. And uh, have you ever had that situation where they were talking about you? Vanessa: I have, I have busted some. Let's just be real. Like girls can be catty. Okay. And women, we're no different. So yes, I have busted some, some people have called them out, some people I didn't. Um, but yeah, that's just something like funny I do. Paul: Yeah look I definitely, when we travel, especially at Italy, my wife's family's background is Italian, so she can't really speak it, but she can certainly understand it. And one day we've heard very, very entertaining conversations, especially when it comes to the local prices versus tourist price. It's like, hang on, I've just charged us three times the average. Vanessa: Yes Exactly, exactly. So you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. Paul: Brilliant. So what don't you tell us a little bit about your corporate escapee story? Vanessa: Yeah. Okay. So I, um, my background has been in marketing. I've been in marketing my whole career and as soon as I got out of college I was very blessed to be a marketing and communications manager for a trade association that represented the out of home entertainment industry. So think like Pacman, dartboards, jukeboxes, that kind of thing. Um, and so I loved it, loved every minute of it, and I'll be honest with you and your audience, it was, I'm second generation to that industry. So my dad totally hooked me up with that job straight out of college. And when I say Pacman paid for my college, it's true. My father's owed Pacman for like 30 years, so I loved it, loved every minute of it. Um, I was there for 10 years and was responsible for all their marketing, their website, events. I launched their email marketing program, which is when I graduated from college social media wasn't a part of what wasn't even in existence and totally dating myself, but email was launching. So that's where I really started was with email marketing. And from there I went to, um, after 10 years I loved it, but I needed something different. I needed a challenge and to be honest with you, Paul, I needed to make more money. So the gambling industry came into Chicago, which is where I'm from and let's just say we call gambling like amusements rich cousin, let's say slot machines are making much more money than Pacman is, right. So, so I got everything I wish for. I got a challenge. I got a ton more money and be careful what you wish for because I hated every minute of it. I went from loving my job to, you know, having the Sunday night blues to dreading Monday morning, and it was basically because it was a good old boys club. It was a very male-dominated industry. Right. And to be just honest with you, they just treated me not very well. They treated me like a secretary who, you know, a little girl that liked to play on Facebook, never really took me seriously, even though I was hired to be their marketing person, they treated me like a secretary. So I was like getting coffee and it just, there was other bad, bad stories that I won't even get into, but you could just imagine, you know, in a very male-dominated industry like gambling, like where really all the deals go down. It's not necessarily always in a boardroom. Right. So I was planning my escape and every night I would go home and I would work on my website and all that because I knew what I knew was valuable. I was, since the association days, people were always asking me, Vanessa, how are you doing this? How are you sending out these emails? How did you grow the Facebook page so quickly? You know, things like that. So I knew in the back of my mind that that's what I knew was valuable and so I was planning my escape, but unfortunately or fortunately the slot machine that they have for the marketplace was not the right product and I knew that. So I lost my job and about a week later I found out that I was pregnant and about a week after that, I found out that I was going to be a single mom, so my world got turned upside down within three weeks time. And I was like, how did this happen to me? Right. I did everything right, right. I went to school, I studied hard. You know, I, I'm, I'm a good worker. I pay my taxes, like, you know, all this stuff that we're supposed to do. And here I was, you know, jobless, pregnant and alone. So I don't know what to tell you, Paul. I just knew in my gut literally and figuratively, that this was gonna work. And so I didn't even touch my resume, I don't know what came over me. I'm like, you know, what, if I don't start my own business now, it's never gonna happen. So I did. I just put one foot in front of the other and just really worked my ass off for nine months straight. Obviously, I can't go out party. So I say I stayed home and continue to work on my website and you know, would speak in front of anybody who would listen. And it was just like really hustle and go time. So that's how I escaped. Paul: That's an amazing, amazing story. And, and what was it harder or easier than you expected when you, when you did finally start your own business? Vanessa: In the beginning, I think it was just, if it was somewhat easy just because I knew what I was doing when it came to marketing per se, right? Like you have to build an audience and you'd have to get your social media channels up and you know, all those things. So I think I was just in such a grind for nine months and I was like, okay, this is how I get clients. So, you know, when it's fear-based or the fact where I cannot fail, it's not just about me, it's now about my son. Um, it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be probably that first year. But to be honest with you, Paul, I was such in hustle mode because I couldn't fail. Um, that it came relatively easy to me. But that was only year one. Okay. And entrepreneurship. And now I'm, I'm proud to say I'm now in year six. I'm coming in and my sixth year, um, and it's, uh, you know, and I have a thriving consulting business. I have a waiting list of clients wanting to work with me. But if you would've told me this six years ago, I've been like, you're crazy. So it was a little easier for that first year. But again, for me specifically it was just because I knew what I had to do and I just kept pushing and grinding. But it wasn't always easy. Like, I had never worked this hard in my life. Now in your six, it's really a grind now. I love it because I love what I do, so I'm extremely blessed, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to, to sustain the business. Paul: Yeah and with you know giving birth, etcetera. How did that transition occur? Did your clients stay with you or did that sort of interrupt the business? Vanessa: So I was planning ahead. I knew I would take two months off. Um, and to be honest with your audience, your listeners, when I was let go, I was a little saver. So I did have money in the bank. I thought I was always a little saver. Um, so for those who are wanting to escape, this is one piece of advice I would say save every dime you possibly can because you're going to need it because even though I saved, you know, that money goes quick. So I knew that I was going to take two months off after my son was born. Um, and like I said, I just kept grinding. I mean, there's pictures of me where I'm like very pregnant and you know, doing a seminar about email marketing back in the day. So it was just about getting, you know, building that list and getting in front of as many people as I could before I became, you know, a mom. Paul: Great. And what sort of help did you get along the way? Vanessa: So, uh, my, my email service provider tool, the tool I use to send out my emails is constant contact and so I have been a constant contact customer since 2001. I'm totally dating myself. So I've been in email marketing a very long time. Um, and so there was always local seminars about email marketing and social media and I would always go to them on behalf of the association. WelI got very chummy with the speaker and he was the first person I turned to when I lost my job. I'm like, okay, this is what I'm planning to do. And he said, Hey, do you know that there's a partners program that constant contact has? And I'm like, what? He's like, you'd be perfect for it. So it just so happens, right, everything happens for a reason. Um, the week I found out I was going to be let go the, within two weeks there was the first constant contact partners conference that was gonna be held in Boston. So I booked my ticket. It was the first plane business plane ticket I ever bought with my own money since that. Before then it was always, you know, my, my company paid for it. So I was like, Whoa, that's a big wake up call. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't expense this. Right. So I went there and I'd say that was a huge help because they then helped me get some speaking gigs. Um, obviously I was telling constant contact that would, that's like the call to action at the end of the seminars. But to be honest with you, Paul, it's happened so organically because I was doing that anyways. Like I said, back from the association days when I first got our first email campaign where no one saw that had seen something like that before, like our board of directors and our members called me and was like, what is this? So, so I was already doing that. There are like, what, what is this? Oh, it's constant contact and I would just tell them what I was doing and how I did it. That's pretty much the monster help and I really got that really helped me in the beginning with partnering. Yeah, partnering with constant contact. Paul: Excellent. And we'll move now into the build section. So when someone says to you today, Vanessa, what do you do? How do you answer that? Vanessa: So, um, my go-to answer is I'm an online marketing consultant and I help small business owners, particularly women entrepreneurs. That kind of happened organically too, and it's probably because of my story and the style that I teach, but I helped them put together an online marketing plan. I see so many small businesses, solopreneurs and things like that on social media, but they're just posting, just to post. There's no real strategy on how to use these tools that are literally at our fingertips on how to sell, basically sell their products, sell their services. So that's, um, that's what I do. Paul: Great. And what do you know about coming up with social media plans that a few others don't? Vanessa: No, I think when I run into with all the clients I've had the pleasure of working with is that they, there's, there's so many options out there with social media that it gets overwhelming, right? It gets overwhelming for them and there's no plan. So I just like to really simplify marketing because it can be so overly complicated and if you just pick one or two social media platforms to focus on and master those because one of the things I've seen is that everyone's on every single social media platform on the planet, right? Like I have a strategy session with clients and I'm like, okay, tell me, you know where you live online. And so they're like, okay. So we have a Facebook page, we have a Facebook group, we have a LinkedIn profile, we have a LinkedIn business page where on twitter we have a YouTube channel and we are now on Instagram. Okay. How many of those can you sufficiently run effectively and putting out killer content? You can't. There's no. Unless you have a team. And I'm talking about like you know, small business owners that they're doing their own marketing. There's just no way. Right? So my first advice would be just to focus on one or two social media platforms that A, your target market is hanging out and B, that you actually enjoy. I think that's like a big myth that people think they have to be on twitter. Well if you hate twitter, right? And you know, then you have to be on there. Your audience is going to know they can smell the BS when someone doesn't like what they're doing. So I would say just to one or two social media channels, master those. And what I mean by master is that you actually bring in money with that you have a system that is actually bringing you clients and customers and then move onto another one. Paul: Look it's a great point. And I think, um, know let's use me as an example. So, you know, corporate escapees just like you is my key target audience and know that they're probably in all channels like you said, but um, if you were advising me which channels I should focus on, which, which are the key social media channels you would recommend? Vanessa: So my first question would be would be, what is your target audience? Paul: My target audience is probably slightly more male than female, but between 40 and 50 and you know, uh, either have left like you because of, you know, we'll let go. Um, because of something though, there was maybe a redundancy involved or they've just had enough and they want to spend more time with their family. So similar to you spend more time with your family and really being in control. Uh, so that's. Yeah. So they've all had a corporate background and now they're effectively running their own business. Vanessa: Yeah. So I would say just based off of that, that I, if I were you, I would stick to Linkedin, um, because when people are looking for an escape or looking for new jobs or things like that, they generally tend to go to LinkedIn if they're corporate backgrounds. And I've met several people who have seen my story and connected with me on LinkedIn. So I would focus on LinkedIn. For you, Paul, and then as well as your podcast. Paul: Great. Well, I'm glad you said that because I, uh, definitely because, you know, I had a facebook group, I had Instagram, I was the classic where I had everything. There's so many people listening right now are probably thinking, Oh gee, I'm like that as well to spread too thin. And they doubled down on LinkedIn. And I think with LinkedIn where you can also retweet, I think, you know, you don't have to that, that's quite easy. So look, that's great advice. And I really, you know, I know so many times in our community when people do double down, they get such a better improvement of being spread too thin. And, you know, other than being spread too thin, what are some of the other classic, um, mistakes that you see people make on social media? Vanessa: Well, I'd say using social media, you know, again, just to keep it simple is that, you know, it's phenomenal that we have all our social media channels. However, really what we want to use social media for is lead generating. That's it when you, when it comes down to it. Okay. And so, um, when you're first getting started or even if it's your third or fourth year in business is my advice is that you have to have an audience to sell to, right? I mean, I know it sounds, but like people get so focused on, you know, the numbers and the followers and you know, all of that where there needs to be some sort of system in place where they're continuing to grow their audience and their email list at the same time. So they actually have someone to sell stuff to you. I can't tell you how many times I have these phenomenal entrepreneurs and you know, they get a little bit disappointed because, you know, they only had about 10 people registered for the Webinar or whatnot. And then I asked them, okay, how big is your email list? And they say maybe 40 or 50, and then I'm like, okay, well how are we generating more people into that list? And they're like, well, I'm not. And so I'm like, okay, well let's just do the math. Right. So I would say like just a commonality is to use social media as a way to generate leads and by leads I mean to grow your email list at the same time. Paul: Yeah great. And we've got so many people and probably the people listening right now and say, look, you know, I've got really good connections based in LinkedIn, but I don't particularly own that and I have, I haven't converted that into my list. So what are some of the key tips you've got for getting people from LinkedIn into your list? Vanessa: Yeah. So nowadays it's all about content and providing real value to people to connect them with your expertise. Right? So you need to have some sort of opt-in, opt-in, Freebie or you know, a giveaway in exchange for their email address. Right. So you no longer can say join our newsletter, right? Just click here to join our newsletter. This is 2018. Okay. So you have to give them some sort of value in exchange for their email address. So that's it. Like a guide or a video tutorial or you know, whatever the case may be that you're an expert in. And then once you create that often right, that guide and set up your email automation, right, set up that welcome funnel. Then you'd have to put it out in the universe. Right. I've had so many clients where they have all this, but I'm like, well how many times do you post about it? And I'm like, oh well I posted about a couple months ago. Okay, well you've had new followers since then. So I'd say like post about your options and your freebies on a regular basis on LinkedIn, you know. Paul: Yeah. And just on the opt-in, is there any particular format that's working better on LinkedIn at the moment than others? Like, you know, is it video, is it a pdf, is for infographic? What's, what are you sort of seeing trending in your clients? Vanessa: Yeah. So the, I think the format, you know, you kind of have to test to know your audience on what format they like to get content from you, you know, different strokes for different folks. So, um, but one of the things that's really easy to do and, and people love to get because it's really quick like the opt-in to me should be in what I teach often actually do a whole webinar about this, but often she'd be like a snackable treat, right? That you're helping them with one problem. Okay. One problem that you can help them with. So, um, so for example, I did a guide last year for Facebook lives and I did a checklist like what to do before, during and after your live streams to prepare them. So checklists really simple to do. They're really easy to create and they're snackable, meaning like your audience can literally, you know, just kind of review it. And it won't take very long because our attention span is tiny, right? And move on. So I would say, I don't know if there's a particular format that does better than the other, just as long as you're opt-in, your Freebie, your guide is banging. I mean like don't have usher opt-in because I've had other clients that say, Oh yeah, I can just use a guide that I did last year or a couple of years ago. Your content is what's going to separate you from everybody else. So my advice is that when you create an opt-in and say someone comes back and say, wow, Vanessa, I would've paid for that information. You got yourself killer opt in. And it doesn't matter if it's a Webinar or a checklist or a guide. So long as that, that content is phenomenal and really helped them. That's what's gonna separate you. Paul: And your ideal clients. Who Do you love working with? Vanessa: Um, I mean, like I've, I worked with a lot of Solopreneurs. I work with a lot of women entrepreneurs, a lot of consultants, a lot of coaches. Um, I do have some male clients too. I don't discriminate guys. It's just, like I said, it just happened kind of organically as I, as I started to speak more and more, I'm in front of people. The women entrepreneur just naturally gravitated towards me. Maybe because I'm a single mom, maybe because you know, I had enough balls to jump and they're just saying how I did it. I don't, you know, I, I think that's the connection, the human connection with other women entrepreneurs have to me that, you know, if I can do it, you know, having lost my job newly pregnant completely alone and I did it anyways, then anybody can do it. Paul: And you know, you've had, like you said, an amazing journey over the six years. What is the future? You know, what's, what's your prediction for the next three years? Vanessa: Oh Gosh, I'd be a rockstar. Right? And I can retire and in Bali I'll come visit you in Australia. That's so. No, so I'm, I'm a professional speaker. I'm proud to say now that I actually get paid to speak where back in the day I drove two hours to speak to like two people when I was about six months pregnant. So I did the grind, um, so I would like to do like just more speaking gigs, I'm land more national conferences because, you know, this is the virtual world and obviously you and I love it, right. Um, but you know, every once in a while I like to hang out with the three dimensional people and that human interaction which will never be replaced. Um, so I say maybe from three years from now that you know, I land some bigger stages, maybe social media marketing world. I have my eye on that and I'm just traveling the world, you know, I'll go to Australia, Paul. Paul: We got great conferences here. Vanessa: I'm sure. Paul: I'm writing down a couple of names right now then will talk to them. Let's get you down here. Vanessa: Awesome. Love it. Paul: And as far as you know, improving the profitability of your business, what are some key things you've done to improve the profitability over the six years? Vanessa: Oh my gosh. Okay. So one of the things I learned early on was as an entrepreneur is that you have to have multiple streams of income coming in. I know that's kind of seems like one on one, but this is the stuff you learned, right, and during your entrepreneurial journey. So I started off with email marketing because that's what I knew best and then I started, you know, doing people's email campaigns and becoming their email marketing manager for those who didn't have the time to do it, but it was like a step above a virtual assistant. No offense, virtual assistants. I loved them. I would not be where I am without virtual assistants, but they have had an email, um, expert to their emails, but that wasn't enough. So you have to have multiple streams of income. So, you know, I created different ways for people to work with me right now, you know, paid to be a speaker in paid for one on one clients where, you know, I have VIP sessions with individual clients one on one. I have a group consulting program for those who can't afford, right. The one on one attention and I get it. I just launched an instagram membership. It's called the instagram incubator. Um, so where all we do is talk strategies on how to work instagram and like just instagram one on one for businesses who have no clue how to use it and things like that. So that, where I'd say I've learned is just creating different ways on how to help different entrepreneurs and marketers, like different strokes for different folks and in ways that they can afford it. Paul: And as far as you know, the key trends obviously I think there's been a bit of a trend from Facebook to LinkedIn and certainly for B2B. Now seeing that the organic reach that you get on LinkedIn risks as facebook is, is exceptional. But what are you seeing as some of the key trends in the social platforms you they stable at the moment or is you know, there's about to be another major change? Vanessa: Yeah, I think all eyes from just from my own experience as well is that, you know, I think we've all seen and felt that, you know, engagement is down when it comes to facebook business pages, right? I mean, this earlier this year, actually, January of this year, at the beginning, I can't break 2018 is over, but in January remember Zuckerberg himself said, right, he dropped a bomb saying that they weren't going to push out a lot of content from business pages and publishers because he was listening to his customers and his customers which is you and I saying we didn't want to see ads. We didn't want, you know, all the stuff in front of us. We go on facebook to stalk our exes, we go on facebook to socialize, right? So I've definitely seen engagement down from my facebook business page and I think as we all know, facebook has become a pay to play platform. So meaning you have to boost your own content, your own posts for your own followers to see it on your facebook business page. So I think a lot of people, that's why people are turning to instagram because instagram engagement is so much higher than facebook right now. And I think all eyes are on instagram stories. I mean, that feature is a tremendously powerful feature. Um, that businesses are really, really taking advantage of. So I would say for anyone who's interested in instagram to obviously get familiar with the basics, but um, I think my prediction for 2019 is that all eyes are going to be more on instagram stories rather than just posting to instagram. Paul: Brilliant, And what's the key that you get new clients? Vanessa: Speaking. Yeah, I'd say the seminars I do and the webinars that I've been doing. So, you know, they're both online and offline stages. Um, so that's the key way I've been able to land a clients is through my seminars that I do in person and also the webinars that I do online. Paul: Great. And it seems like you did do the hard yards, so you said you started with audiences or two and they'll probably one of them was your family members, right through to where you are now. Um, any, any tips based on your journey that you can give someone that's just at the start of trying to get a speaking gig? Vanessa: Yeah. So, um, take any gig that you can. Okay. This is where I started from, so we, I can only give advice based on where I started from. So in the beginning I took any gig that I could. Reach out to your nearest chambers, you know, find out where your target audience cares, but like, you know, reach. I reached out to chambers, I reached out to women organizations and I would said, hey, I would, I would speak for free. I have an hour seminar, you know, email marketing or I have an hour seminar on how to grow your list or something like that. So I would say buckle down and just hustle and speak for free and speak to as many people as you possibly can. And then my other advice on becoming a speaker is to be nice. Okay. And so this is something that I'm teaching my toddler, but it's 100 percent true. You will not believe the amount of other speaking gigs I got just because I was nice. Meaning like I gave them my presentation way early. I promoted the hell out of their event. I, um, you know, then when I hit the stage as it was my child to go to work, so I presented the best way I could. Um, I stayed and answered questions. I stayed and helped event producer clean up, you know, so she was all by herself. It was 8:00 at night. Everyone had gone and then she was alone cleaning up her event and I stayed and helped her and she was amazed while she had another event the following year we'll guess who she called, you know what I'm saying? So there's just so many speakers out there in my opinion, Paul, and I'm just going to be honest that like their ego is insane. They just go speak, don't answer any questions and leave. And that to me is just an ass move. So I would just say to really stand out is to just help the event producer as much as you possibly can because it's a really big job that they, it is a, it's a lot of work to put an event together and they're doing it and they're literally giving you a stage for you to speak on. The very least that you can do is just help them in any way possible that you can. And I guarantee you, if you do that, word of mouth will spread. Paul: And you mentioned before, about Virtual assistants. Just tell me a little bit about your team. Who helps and supports you? Vanessa: Oh my gosh. Okay. So I have to give a shout out to Jessica. Jessica. I have four different VAs. They're not full time too, so I don't think I'm fancy because I have four. I use them for different times for different things. Um, but right now Jessica is my VA and she is my right hand woman in my instagram membership. So you know, anyone that has a question and it's like a techie question. She goes in and answers it right away because she knows instagram, like the back of her hand and she posts all of my instagram posts for me and things like that. That's one VA use. I'll use another VA here locally. Um, because sometimes when I do these speaking events and I don't have the attendees, right, you need the attendee list to grow your emails to grow your email lists. Sometimes they like give me a stack of business cards. Well, I have another, a VA that, you know, I give her the stack of business cards. She got enters them into my list, sends out, you know, all my followup emails, books, all my strategy sessions with them. She calls them on the phone and says, Hey, what did you think about Vanessa's seminar? You know, did you want to book a strategy session with her? And things like that. So, um, I also have a phenomenal bookkeeper. She's not a VA, but you know, she does my books. And so yeah, you need help. As you get bigger, you get, you're definitely going to need help to free free up time for you to just focus on your content and selling. Paul: Great. And you know, as I said. What are some of the biggest challenges you face today for your business? Vanessa: The biggest challenges I face today. Um, I mean it's always, you know, a financial goals. I always have financial goals and reaching them. I would say that's a challenge, but, you know, sometimes you just don't always reach those. And let's see, financial challenges. I'm not quite sure. I'm like, I'm pretty good where I'm at. I'll be honest with you. It's been a good year, you know, I mean like besides like maybe not getting, um, you know, the 10k stages that I want because I've submitted myself and they said no, not this year, maybe next year. So stuff like that, that's, that's a challenge. Um, I guess maybe just like in general, and I think everybody can kind of attest to this, is just to stand out from all the noise that's out there. You know, that gets into my head too, but I, I, as I tell a lot of my clients where they're like, well, you know, I did a whole facebook live about this in my group and I, it was called facebook envy, right? Where you look at somebody else and they're like, well how did she grow her group? So asked her how did she land that speaking Gig or why didn't you know all that and I call it facebook envy and I struggled with that too. So, um, but you just have to like put your, you know, your blinders on and just focus on your work and don't worry about what other people are doing. Paul: Excellent. Well look, before we go onto the next section, I'd like to mention our YouTube channel called Build Live Give. You get tips to help corporate escapees just like Vanessa to rapidly grow your business. So if you would like to subscribe, just go to build live, give and please, if you love the content and you get value, share it with other corporate escapees as well. So we can all have a great lifestyle and also financial freedom. So the next section is the live section. So tell us about a couple of daily habits that help you be successful. Vanessa. Vanessa: Okay. Um, one of the things I start my day as because I used to like just rush and hurry and start my day and you know, I have to drop off my son and you know, I have a consult and all that. Now I've learned to breathe as soon as I get up and like just lay with my son where we just cuddle in like we talked. That's a big, big start to my day. Um, and that's a regular that I've been doing for the past four months and it's helped me tremendously because I'm like, why the hell am I busting my ass so much if I'm just rushing through these little moments? So that's why I love to kickbox I'm an avid kickboxer so I'm actually working out is super important to me. It's just a way to like, you know, get rid of the beer, I'm a beer chick, work off the beer, work off the stress and like the clutter. Um, so that's definitely important in my life. If it's not on my calendar, Paul, it's not gonna happen, so it's just always on there, you know, Tuesday night kickbox class. Um, so that's a regular. Um, I do. And then one thing that really works for me is just really managing my time. Well, it took a while for me to, to figure that out, but there's so many people say, Vanessa, how are you able to put out so much content or you know, you're everywhere. Well, it's just because I've learned to manage my time, so my calendar I live and die by. If it's not on my calendar, it's not gonna happen. So I'd say those, those three things are really funny. Paul: Great. And do you use the scheduling tool for your calendar? Vanessa: Yes. You talked about on Linkedin, of course. Yeah, I use acuity. Paul: Yeah. Greatl Vanessa: Love it! Paul: Brilliant. And the next section is the give section. So what's a cause or a charity that you're passionate about? Why? Vanessa: Yeah. So, um, I had been giving, um, I've always donated to St. Jude for many. Oh my God, for many, many years now. Um, and it'd be honest, it's just because my mother has, she supported it for so long and you know, it's completely devastating when you talk about, you know, kids who have cancer, um, and so it's just very near and dear. And so the fact that St Jude is an incredible organization that takes care of families and more importantly takes care of these kids who beyond me, medical attention beyond the love and support in the family, don't have to worry about this financially. All they have to do is love and support their children and help them get through these unimaginable treatments. I can't even imagine my son going through something like this. Um, so, uh, so yeah, so my mom has always been to St. Jude and she's all in love with the charity, so I have to. Paul: Well, look, the last section is the action section and I'll just ask you some questions and get some rapid fire responses. So the first one is, what are your top three productivity tips? Vanessa: Top three productivity tips. Okay. Um, I would day block. Okay. So, uh, that's how I get so much done is that instead of like time blocking, where from like nine to 11, I'm going to work on this and the 11 to 12, I actually day block. So like say on Mondays I scheduled no consults. It's specifically just my creative days. Okay. So that's one way I am able to be so creative and so productive is through day blocking. Um, the other thing is scheduling tools like we talked about on your linkedin post that has saved me a monster time. You know, you no longer have to email someone and say, when are you available? Right. I can meet Monday and then that is gone, right. Um, and then the third, uh, productivity is to outsource. Oh yeah. Outsource anything that you don't want to do, you don't want me doing your books. So that was the first thing. Okay. I am not whatever they want. I'm not right brain. I'm left brain, I'm more creative and you don't want me to do numbers. And so that was the first thing I did was hire a bookkeeper and a tax guy because yeah, no, that is not my forte. So outsource. Paul: Great. And what are some favorite apps or software that you use to run your business? Vanessa: Um, obviously constant contact for my emails and my autoresponders. I love lead pages. I've been using lead pages for ever. Um, so I don't have to be, you know, a web designer. They, the templates they have making it look very, very professional. So I love lead pages. And then what's an Oh um, my webinar tool for sure. Um, Webinarninja have used for webinars this year, which is actually probably the number one way I grew my email list this year. So webinar tool. Paul: Brilliant. Then what, what are some podcasts or books that you love and why? Vanessa: Well, one of my favorite podcasts is Amy Porterfield, so I've been listening to her since day one. She actually is the one that pushed me, to be honest with you, to start my own business when I was planning my escape at the end of my nine to five Gig, I would, um, I, I think she's was, hers was the first Webinar I actually took and was like, I could do this. I could teach this. I think so, yeah. So I'm, I'm a big fan of, but Amy Porterfield's podcast. Paul: Brilliant. So what's some parting advice you'd love to leave people listening now? Vanessa: You know, I would just say, you know, if you're planning on escaping again, save every dime that you can for sure now. And I mean like, you know, live like you would live like a broke entrepreneur. Okay. Like it's worth it. So I would say save every dime that you can. And I know it's scary. The Lord knows, I know it's scary. Um, but life is just too damn short not to love what you do and you know, regret is going to be a son of a b****. Just, you know, picture yourself at like 80 or 90 where, you know, it's kind of just too late to think about starting that Gig or I wish I would have quit my job back then because I was just so miserable. And if and when you are miserable in your life, I think about it. We spend the majority of our life at our job doing, you know, are working and so to be in a miserable job that has got to affect your health, that has got to affect your, your family and I just, and I know it's, you know, maybe it's the pay or the insurance, you know, that you need or things like that. But I really believe that we all have something very, very unique to offer every single person and you just don't know where it'll take you after you jump. So like I said, if I can certainly do it, uh, I think anybody can do. Paul: Oh, that's great advice. And it was such a lovely interview, Vanessa, like you've given so much value. I've once again, filled my page of notes. So we'll have all the comments, all the links, etcetera in the show notes, and also Vanessa has been very kind to give us a brilliant gift as well. So if you go to Vanessa-Cabrera and I'll put that in the show notes, dot com forward slash top 10 ways. There's a brilliant, um, gift that Vanessa's given on why is it you can grow your audience and you know, what I love about you, Vanessa, is that you've got lots of practical experience and obviously started in email marketing, then you've made the shift into social. But I also love what was on your website where you've got, you know, um, first you help people understand it. Second, you help people make it easy to implement. The third thing is you get results and I just liked the fact that you are making it simple in a world where social media can be so complex, but brilliant having you on the show today and thanks for coming. Vanessa: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Paul. This is awesome. Paul: All right, brilliant. Thanks Vanessa. Bye. Vanessa: Bye. Paul: That was a really wonderful interview with Vanessa. My top three take outs are, first one is the power of instagram stories, so in 2019, it's where it's at and what I love that she said off off camera that you can actually do both personal and business with instagram stories. The second is to always be nice and professional, which helps you get additional gigs, so if you're a speaker or that for anything for that matter, people will always bring back the people that are professional and nice. Leave your ego at the door and the last one is around checklists to get people from your linkedin connections onto your email list. So they're my top three take outs. I'd love to hear yours. So why don't you email me at Paul@buildlivegive.com where I'd love to get your insights from this podcast. Also, if you love this podcast and you know other corporate escapees, please share it with them. Thank you. Announcer: Thank you for listening to the corporate escapees podcast brought to you by Build Live Give. If you would like to join a community of like minded peers, please visit www.buildlivegive.com. Until next time. Thanks for listening and be brave.

Join Erica Hodgin, author of “Educating Youth for Online Civic and Political Dialogue: A Conceptual Framework for the Digital Age,” for a conversation about ways educators can support youth in critically engaging online civic and political dialogue in this age of digital media and online communication. Hodgin is joined by educators Jason Muniz and Paul Oh and the co-founders of Marginal Syllabus, Remi Kalir and Joe Dillon, for a discussion of the text, which is April’s featured article for Writing Our Civic Futures, which explores a range of scholarship on civic engagement and supports their web annotation at Educator Innovator.

Series: Getting to Know You! * Paul Oh (because we can't really spell Olzcheski) tells us what it takes to be the youth pastor at Keltys, and his past life as a minister with Campus Crusade.

Wear a cape! No way - Yes way! Are you feeling thee way you don't like or want? Well here's a quick and easy way to change that and yes it's different (some may say silly) but the best of it is that it WORKS! Trust me I'm a hypnotist ;0) AND................. it only takes 5 minutes to listen and do Please enjoy and shine brightly - feel the way you want to feel Paul Oh! as usual please share with your friends, subscribe and if you feeling nice please leave a nice review in iTunes

New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Running a brick and mortar store has its challenges. Today's guest has figured out how to create both an open and warm store environment with an innovative and successful online presence. For this episode, Andrew heads down the street from his office to sit down with Paul Decker of Musicvilla who's at the helm of a musical institution here in Bozeman, MT. He shares how he navigates the challenges of keeping a brick and mortar business running, his approach to managing an effective team, and how Musicvilla leverages an eCommerce site to generate additional income. Subscribe:  iTunes | Stitcher (With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Paul Decker of Musicvilla.com) Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. I'm Andrew Youderian. Today on the show, I wanna bring you a company that's been on my radar for a long time. I live in Bozeman, Montana as you may know, and actually went to college here, and in college when I was playing a lot more guitar, I was a frequent visitor of the store called Music Villa right on Main Street. I spent way more than I probably should have on guitar equipment, and over the years, I've just kind of followed them and they've really impressed me, especially as I kinda get more into e-commerce, because they've built out, not just a great eCommerce presence online, which they have done well but, the way in which they've built the business. Paul specifically the owner, who I'll be chatting with, created such a interesting, fun, dynamic, open culture for his company. A lot of people talk about building company culture, but most of the time, it's just that, just talk. But what he's been able to do in Music Villa, both in the brick and mortar store, the feeling you get when you go in there, as well as the presence online with their videos that are funny, they're interesting, they've got a lot of uniqueness and character to them, it's just really...It's really impressive. So, I wanted to sit down with Paul, and understand how he was able to do that. So, left my office, walked down the street a block or two, and had a chance to sit down with Paul over a beer, and find out exactly how he did it. In our bed fast asleep. Andrew: Paul, thanks for coming on. Paul: Any time. No problem. Thank you. Andrew: We got the 87 mic, the beer that you graciously offered me. Paul: We're doing good. Paul's Background in Music Andrew: You've had the store since '97, right? Paul: Yes, '97 is when I came back. I was living out in Seattle, and I kind of moved back. My dad had the store, and so I kind of came back and started there. He was done and I walked in and took it from there. Andrew: Perfect. And so were you doing the music thing in Seattle or what were you doing there? Paul: I was, yes, I was playing in bands, and just left high school in '89. Right after high school, traveled with some bands for a while, ended up in Seattle. And one day, I'm like, "I think I'm ready to go home." So, I came back to Bozeman. Andrew: And what was the name of the band that you were playing at when you were in Seattle? Paul: Oh, gosh. Many bands, who knows. I got to play with the Jimi Hendrix cover band, and, you know, all kinds of stuff, but yeah. Andrew: And did you...You didn't have a business background coming in to run the store, did you? Paul: No, I didn't. I had... After high school and I never went to college and I didn't have any business background necessarily, but I did work for a corporate company, Musicland Group which was CD's and, you know, and that definitely taught me a lot about some business stuff. And then I just remember before I left Seattle, I went to a guitar center grand opening, and it was pretty eye opening too. I was like, "Wow." So, you know, I always kind of was in this marketing, you know, that... I enjoyed that aspect of it,

Link to audio file (40:39)In this episode, Sabine Hauert interviews Paul Oh, the Director of the Drexel Autonomous Systems Lab at Drexel University. His team, spanning 10 universities, is competing in the DARPA Robotics Challenge (DRC) with the HUBO hu...

Classroom 2.0 LIVE webinar, June 15, 2013, Summer of Making and Connecting.. Presenters: Christina Cantrill, Paul Oh, Paul Allison, Karen Fasimpaur Description: This summer, we will be making and connecting through a series of events linked by a powerful shared interest. Learn about Summer of Making and Connecting events, supported by National Writing Project's Educator Innovator initiative, including the Making Learning Connected MOOC (#clmooc) and the Youth Voices Summer Program. The Summer of Making and Connecting organizes hundreds of events, projects and programs in communities across the nation, around the world, and online to help youth connect learning to their interests and to enable teachers to learn from and network with their innovative peers. Come join us to explore and put Connected Learning into practice.

Classroom 2.0 LIVE webinar, June 15, 2013, Summer of Making and Connecting.. Presenters: Christina Cantrill, Paul Oh, Paul Allison, Karen Fasimpaur Description: This summer, we will be making and connecting through a series of events linked by a powerful shared interest. Learn about Summer of Making and Connecting events, supported by National Writing Project's Educator Innovator initiative, including the Making Learning Connected MOOC (#clmooc) and the Youth Voices Summer Program. The Summer of Making and Connecting organizes hundreds of events, projects and programs in communities across the nation, around the world, and online to help youth connect learning to their interests and to enable teachers to learn from and network with their innovative peers. Come join us to explore and put Connected Learning into practice.

The National Writing Project’s Paul Oh took some time to sit down at the DML Conference in Chicago to discuss his work on bringing student voice forward toward a more democratic education.