Podcasts about i mark

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, Sarah speaks with Marc Winn about how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and support meaningful connections when used with the right intentions. They explore the impact of AI on marketing and the workforce, reflecting on how businesses can shift from manipulation to empowerment. Together, they discuss the ethical implications of AI, the role of marketers in creating positive and healing stories, and how heart-centered entrepreneurs can embrace technology to build community, foster trust, and stay present amidst rapid change. This episode is a thoughtful guide for those looking to partner with AI in a human(e) way. Here's what they talked about in today's episode: How AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing, and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections. The impact of social media, AI, and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for a reevaluation of what we sell and how we find meaning in our work. The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing, and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious drivers to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI. How businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes. The importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections, rather than amplifying attention-seeking behavior. -- Parterning with AI in a Human(e) Way Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Sarah: Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with AI. Yes. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane [00:03:00] Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Before I introduce my guest today, just another reminder that if you're playing with the idea of writing a business book about change, you might want to consider looking at my Business Book Alchemist program. I'm only running this once per year, and not sure if I'll run it again next year unless I'll write a fourth book. I'm finishing my third book with this cohort, and in the eight weeks that we have together, we'll refine your big message. Get clear on your ideal reader. Then build a solid outline for your book and also create a marketing plan for it. The program starts on [00:04:00] November 14th and lasts officially for 8 weeks. I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing. It comes with recorded video lessons, so homework, a workbook as well, But also live calls where we connect and have time to really exchange on our big message and the book writing. So check out the details. If you're interested at humane. marketing forward slash BBA and book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. All right, back to today's episode. So my guest today, Mark Nguyen, is a dedicated guide and mentor, helping individuals and organizations navigate the complexities of our modern world. With a focus on fostering innovation, [00:05:00] building social capital, and nurturing a sense of togetherness, Mark's work is transforming communities and inspiring countless people to reach their full potential. I Mark is the co founder of the Dandelion Foundation, an initiative aimed at creating a better future by leveraging the unique strengths of small island states. He is also the mind behind the 50 Coffee Adventure, a project that encourages meaningful connections and conversations to drive social change. So join us as we dive into Mark's insight on human centered AI adoption and his vision for a more connected and innovative world. Here's a summary of what we talked about in this episode, how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing. and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections, the impact of social [00:06:00] media, AI and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for re evaluation of what will sell and how we find meaning in our work. The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI, how businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes, the importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections rather than [00:07:00] amplifying attention seeking behavior. What's funny is that it is only after the episode finished recording that we found out how to apply AI in the form of a background noise cancellation on Mark's Zoom account. I did my best and used all the AI tools I know to make the sound experience as pleasant as possible. But if you do hear some background noise, just appreciate the humanness of this episode. Let's dive in. video1863576471: Hey, Mark, so good to see you again. You already had a good laugh, Off, off recording. So I'm sure this is going to be a, a fun and hopefully also inspiring conversation for, for people listening. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thanks Sarah: for having me. Yeah, it's a delight. Always a delight talking to you and, and like Rachel shout out to Rachel if she's listening, cause she's the one who introduced you having me. The other way around and, and I [00:08:00] really, she, she told me like, Oh, every time I talk to Mark, it's like blows my mind. I'm like, Oh, cool. I want to talk to him. So we did. And now here we are talking about AI and human and whether that, you know, there's anything ethical about that. So yeah, let's dive right in. If you're. open to that? Marc: Yeah, I suppose probably the place to start is kind of what really the moment of realization for me that, that we needed to start having deeper conversations about it. Think I, I ended up in Silicon Valley maybe 11 years ago at a place called Singularity University, which was a place that teaches people about all of the crazy technology that's now arriving and the fact that it was going to arrive far faster than we realize. And so I learned about all of these crazy, fabulous, amazing tools. And it blew my mind. And it took me seven days to get to sleep [00:09:00] again after kind of hearing about the craziness that's arriving. And I was getting the plane home and I stayed in San Francisco the night before, after doing it. I, I I was walking past the Twitter head office. And or near in that area. And I just was thinking that there were tens of millions of dollars being raised to deliver food to that building. 10 minutes faster or three minutes faster or something like that. But meanwhile, there were people homeless outside for drug addiction and things like that. And I started to really question and this is at the forefront of innovation and technology and things like that. And yet, and all of this money going into stuff, but right outside, there was stuff that really mattered that Was being left behind and so I think for the past decade a lot of my focus has really been around how do we bring together this very kind of human world with this [00:10:00] extraordinarily incredible possibility in a way that we don't get some of the unintended consequences of our actions and how does governance itself. Do you know, how do we regulate all of that? And how do we realize that the, the solutions may be arriving in different silos to the ones where we're currently managing for them. And there's, you know, there's some very, very smart people doing some unwise actions. Things in the world. And so in this world of artificial intelligence you know, there's a deeper call for artificial wisdom, maybe, or birth of wisdom. And so, you know, a lot of my work in the last decade is really about, you know, the intersection of where humanity meets technology. And this idea of something new feels like it's being born and and many of our old systems are [00:11:00] collapsing under the scaling complexity of, of, of the era we're in and and, you know, deep down, we all feel like something isn't right. And, you know, I used to be a marketer myself you know, I know this is a marketing community and a direct marketer, you know, really focused on data driven insight and conversion and all the kind of standard of marketing stuff, but, but essentially underneath it all, we were kind of using people's subconscious to, drivers and fears to manipulate them into our desired outcomes. And I started to realize, well, you add AI to that, infinite power and superhuman persuasion. And at the time, 11 years ago, I saw things like Cambridge Analytica. I saw things like Trumpism arriving before Trump even arrived. And ultimately that's the whole world trying to manipulate other people. To do what they want to do rather than what is in our [00:12:00] individual best interests, you know, be it The amount of time we're on screen time having all these amazing behavioral scientists and neuroscientists leveraging Ever more powerful tools to get to do things that aren't necessarily Thriving be it the newspapers pulling us in with huge headlines or clickbait or all of this kind of thing and so I felt that my own gifts were part of the problem When I started to think about the amplification of of what what I know. So many ways. I started to move away from. You know, manipulating others into empowering others to to. To be in their own wisdom and to do things in their individual and collective best interests. And then how do you actually build a mode of governing ourselves from that place? So yeah, I'm 10, 11 years into that process and I probably have more questions than answers. But these are incredible, amazing tools that do we have the wisdom to use? To use them wisely. [00:13:00] Sarah: Yeah. I think that, that really is the big question, right? Because like you, I'm fascinated by the intersection of the human versus the artificial intelligence and people are sometimes quite surprised because I talk about all things human marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human. I'm writing my third book business, like we're human. And, and yet. To me, artificial intelligence is an integral part. That new paradigm that I love to talk about because in my view, it actually helps us to be, or to go back to be more human. And so I guess I would like to have your perspective on that as well, because right now there's two opinions. The one that says, well, AI or chat GPT in marketing is, is just there to dehumanize. everything and [00:14:00] it dehumanizes the interactions and it dehumanizes the, the, the, the messages. So is that true or is there another way to use AI to actually, you know, make that humanness come out in a different way? Marc: So it's all about intention for me. Like the same tool used with misaligned intention. Can deliver vastly different outcomes. And so it's like, it's not really the tool that's the problem. So if I'm using it, I need to create more time that I can pay, spend time with another human being in deep care and deep love, and that is a tool being used to support my humanness, just like zoom is being used right now to have this conversation. It's like, you know, this is the one that says this is an artificial conversation because we brought two humans together. Together that otherwise wouldn't have the time to be able to reach each other and so You know [00:15:00] like like all things it could be used to separate or to connect. It can And so and really it's around what is the intention that these tools are being used for so, you know Say we've got this we've got airline here in my community. It's under Lots of stuff. It's kind of breaking because planes are not going right and the customer service is really Bad because they can't scale to a crisis. And so you couldn't employ enough humans to be human, right? And well actually if you've got systems that can expand and scale and And communicate in a human like way that can support people When they need it in an emergency when you can't provide humans And the current alternative is to be a robot and not available then And people being struggling at airports and all of this Kind of stuff and in crisis and not knowing what to do and all of this kind of stuff but if you've got an Intelligence system that can solve every problem rather than if you press button five And then button three and then about two you [00:16:00] can solve this particular problem, which isn't the problem. I'm really wanting a It's an act of care to provide a tool that meets people's needs. It's an act of love to design a system that cares, even though you're using technology. You know, so for me, I have this I'm a huge proponent of using systems from a place of love, care, and connection. And you know, AI is like magic. If used in the right way with the right kind of, you know, Emotion. Sarah: It leads me automatically to the next question, which is, well, are humans ready for that tool? You know, because if we're saying it's a great tool with the right intention, then maybe what we need to work on is the intention because the tool is already smart enough. So it's the intention that we actually need to work on. And so how [00:17:00] do we, how do we work on that? How do we get humans ready to use the tool with the right intention? Marc: Well, it's not only using it, but it's also about how susceptible are you to manipulation? You know, so like if you have loads of subconscious fears or stories and things like that, it opens you up to people using superhuman persuasion to, to, you know, if you have a fear of death, you're much more likely to be sold health products and all this kind of stuff. So in many ways the inoculation is, you know, what I always say, you should actually teach kids. about marketing and behavioral science, not because to get them to manipulate other people with it is so that they become more aware of what's driving the bus when most messaging is subconscious. And. Yeah, and so, you know, there's this, I think most of us have been through that aging process where we get wiser as we get older. [00:18:00] And that's kind of the shift in consciousness we go through as we evolve during, you know, our lives and humanity has to go through. a real shift for it to Be able to build systems in a way that don't have those consequences So you look at something like facebook or smartphones and things like that We can see all around us that this death of a thousand cuts has happened where everybody's just living in this kind of screen Like every single one of the thousands and thousands of decisions that went into that was probably made sense Logically and smartly but somehow we've ended up in a place where we're All in the same room but disconnected from each other. And so it's like you know, we've accidentally lost ourselves and we can see that with climate change or like with something like that you know, like can you really solve a problem like climate change without Without understanding that over consumption [00:19:00] Is a maybe a self worth issue like, you know, am I enough, you know? Or do I need more to To be someone and recognizing that, you know, these tools are manipulating that Sense of not enough and then how do you how do you how do you market pay a bill? when Your whole business model requires people to consume more even though it may not be in their best interest And so that interesting gap between wants and needs You and how do we, how do we, how do we get technology to support us what we really need rather than what we can be manipulating to wanting and I, you know, I kind of always look at what, say, how billionaires operate. Themselves, you know they'll a lot of them have an amazing assistant that is like the world's best ad blocker, you know You know what I mean? They don't really need to use the internet themselves or anything like that because it'll be facilitated and [00:20:00] so we kind of you know need to look at those kind of tools and stuff that we can build which are you know, the wise owl that sits on people's shoulder and and supports people, to choose the higher selves in moments of You of kind of manipulation. So I think it's an extraordinarily interesting time to be a builder that cares. I think there's never been a better time to you, to develop kind of technology with wisdom and technology that can bring us together and technology that can create magic and wonder and all of these kinds of things. But also there's, there's never been a better time to create lots of unintended, Consequences. Sarah: Yeah, I think that's the issue that I have is that we don't have enough examples of good people using AI right now. And that's why there's so much fear because people look at the. Not so good examples, [00:21:00] you know, the, the, the, the LinkedIn bots putting, you know, AI chat, GPT messages and spamming people and things like that. And so they're like, you see, you know, that's what AI is going to do. It's going to dehumanize everything because the good people, I'm just putting the two of us in the good people side, you know, there's not, you haven't seen Marc: me on a bad day. Sarah: But I'm just saying, there's not enough people who, who talk about doing business for good, who are also saying, yeah, but AI can be actually really good if we use it with the right intention. That's what I'm seeing. Marc: So a LinkedIn bot, I'm like, why wouldn't you use a LinkedIn bot to spread delight and wonder and mischief? You know, I was thinking about developing a belly laugh app the other day, just to, just to send belly laughs to people and things like that. You'd [00:22:00] be really good at that. Yeah. Record yours. Yeah. And it's just like, well, why would you automate something that would bring joy, laughter, and kindness? So, you know I think a friend of mine, Nipun Mehta, who does a lot of stuff around AI and wisdom, highly recommended stuff, and he's like, what about the seven viral virtues, you know, and how do you actually get to that? technologies to support the virality. I, you know, again, it's, it's like, I love the idea of a LinkedIn bot that just makes people laugh and, and, and it's about value, right? Yeah, you see a lot of these LinkedIn bots and it's all about what can I get? What can I get? And then sometimes it's a bit lazy and and it's like, Literally, it's like, I'm a human being. Why would I even respond to that? It's not even clever. Exactly. Well, that's what I Sarah: mean by bad examples, right? But it doesn't Marc: mean you can't be, you can't use the same technology and genuinely be clever and funny. [00:23:00] And well, but humor is my Brand essence and things like that mischief and playfulness. I'm not going to design something using these tools I'm not afraid of using these tools which kind of but I I would use them that really spread the essence of me to find That kind of deep resonance with other people, but you've also got to say well look if everybody used those tools which is increasingly getting easier and easier to do. We just break every social platform. There's so much noise, like the information overload right now is, is getting exponentially worse. And so, you know, to even get connection, you know, the depth of connection that has two people trust each other enough to work together. You know, that isn't going to come from the scaling the shallow, right? You know, that's, there's, you know, there's a reason why I kind of wrote a book on having coffee and, and teaching people to have coffee was, I think, in a world of ever increasing shallowness and scale, the ability to go deeper is kind [00:24:00] of the social network raster class. So, you know, I've had 10, 000 coffees in the last decade because I didn't think the other stuff would, would work that well as the noise did. You know, because everyone's like me, me, me, me, me, me, me with all this technology and amplifying the need for attention when, you know, and, and what we really want is the need for connection. And then when you, if you start with the premise on, okay, how do we use technology to support depth and trust an emotional connection. I think we build very different things. And that's the paradox Sarah: for me, that that really is the paradox. And that's why I believe that AI is actually helping us to create more spaciousness, to have time for those coffee chats. Yeah. Because right now people don't have the time. They're like, I don't have the time to talk to someone for 45 minutes. I have all these things to do. We have all these, this busy work [00:25:00] that we keep doing. Especially as entrepreneurs, often it's not even paid work, right? It's just like all these marketing messages and content plans and all of these things. And that's where AI is actually really good at helping us create that, if we even need to create that. I'm all about questioning our assumptions as well. Like, do we even need to create all that love? So yeah, people want depth more, right? And so that's what AI helps us create. create this more spaciousness to then spend time on a thousand coffee chats. And that's where the humanness comes back. Marc: And we're also going to realize that the world we're moving into is very different. You know, the idea of free intelligence, free energy, free labor, if we And like making money is something, you know, capitalism itself starts to break down in the next [00:26:00] decade or two as a result of if you draw the line of where all of this is going, because we're automating parts of our process today. But you know, you add a humanoid robot to that kind of thing and like everything can be done All needs can be provided and things like that with that kind of technology that's arriving And so it's like what are we selling when there's nothing to sell and how do we make? We have no needs that can't be met by you know The robots and the ais and all of that and the free energy Around us, right? And so Yeah Sarah: Yeah, that's huge. Like, yeah, what do we sell anymore? How Marc: do we find meaning in that process? Which, you know, I'm kind of the global conversation around meaning is, you know, around me since that WikiGuide diagram went around the world and things like that, that are responsible. There's a crisis of meaning.[00:27:00] Happening in the world right now. In in many age groups as people are trying to reconcile where, where do they fit in, you know, as the world is changing very rapidly and the old stories of who we are are moving in. And so, how do you find. Intrinsic motivation to when your old identities kind of dissolve, you know because, you know, we are more than our jobs or who we are with something deeper, but that process of discovery of who we are and what we find joy in when the workplace is going to radically change, it is changing. And how do we, yeah it's just like a. It's a very kind of strange time to be alive, you know, we're all kind of going through a process of death and rebirth, whether we like it or not. And it's like yeah, the need for attention to pay the bills is a kind of temporary state that I think we'll have to raise questions about whether we need to do that. To do that anymore. And [00:28:00] then, and I always kind of say to my wife and it's like, vague, it's like, when the robots come out, you know, our marriage is what's left. Let's work on that bit, you know, rather than understanding the importance of all of these tasks that need to be done in everyday family life. And and likewise, you know, when the robots come and, and who you are, And AI comes, who you are is what's left out of all of this stuff is done. It's like, what would you do when nobody is looking just for the sake of the joy of doing it? That's, that's Sarah: really interesting. Cause it in the, in this new book Business Like We're Human, I basically feel that we have to work on our relationship with work right now. Yeah. I think that is for the next five or so years. That is our main thing because also of you know what's going to come but for [00:29:00] me also because if we want to run businesses like we're human well right now we're working all the time and that that's not human or humane. But then also to To tie back into climate, the climate crisis and all these other crisis we have right now, we cannot solve those if we're constantly working to pay our bills. So we need to free our time for creative thinking, for just, you know, being human again so that we can tackle those and, and probably AI will help us with that as well. But I do believe that as humans, we need to redefine who we are. When we're not working, that is kind of like the question of the of the decade. I feel like, like, who are we if, if we're not working, if we're not defined by our work, because I, yeah, I didn't take it as far as the robots coming, but yeah, that's where we're going, right? Marc: Yeah. Whether it's Sarah: robots or AI or [00:30:00] whatever it is. Marc: Yeah. And it's like, what are we, what painting do we paint with that? We've kind of grown up with many kind of dystopian views of, Of what the world can be with that and I'm I'm more hopeful than that. But also recognizing that in in business terms I think about capital flows during that kind of period. And, you know, if we think about, you know, say the Holy Grail is in 10, 20 years or whatever, or 30 years, depending on your understanding at 40, 50, a hundred years or whatever, and you say, okay like how much money needs to flow to create a world of human thriving within planetary boundaries, you know So the energy system needs to change the health system needs to change all of these kind of things And so huge amounts of money Needs to move to facilitate that transformation. So I you know, I don't really like we need money to end money I kind of always say and it's like [00:31:00] I think it requires the best marketers the the best businesses the to You you know, to shift all of the resources from this kind of extracted deficit, extractive deficit based world that is around human coping to you know, this regenerative asset based world around human thriving that will unlock more wealth than we can ever imagine. Imagine to the point that wealth becomes pointless. So I don't really necessarily think it's an either or Thing it's not something we need to create time with our jobs to then have something else I think we'll see exploding industries and businesses that come from people who care that want to build something human with all these great tools That actually are unafraid to make money in the process of doing it because they, they're willing to inspire people to be hopeful and to move to another world. And and you, you see all sorts of brands starting to emerge that, that, that [00:32:00] attract lots of resources because, you know, I, it's not an either or thing. Like there's, you know but it's, it's messy, you know, going from caterpillar to butterfly and I, I don't necessarily have all the answers myself, but I, I don't you know, the idea, you know, I think there'll be an explosion of wealth but because we have all of these machines and potential, and we'd be able to create more circular ways of doing things, more regenerative ways of doing things, and like, you know, really well, people are better. And people who are below the poverty line, you know, create income and and money for businesses. And you get a load of struggling people behind the poverty line, that's not good for anyone. Or people with chronic disease or all of these kinds of things, that's not good for anyone. And I think once we start lining up kind of these entrepreneurial desires with what the world really needs and what we all need, and we get into creating a much, much bigger pie for everyone. Then, you know, we'll all do much better than we did before [00:33:00] monetarily as well as. And, you know, these tools can help us do that, but we need to all kind of learn to line with our own best interests and humanity's best interest heart, but, you know, part of that is how do we learn to get along enough to find out enough about each other to be able to collaborate to find out what really matters to us individually and collectively. And I think we're struggling as a, as a human race. With that right now, Sarah: yeah, that's, that's the main thing. It's like, yeah, the outer stuff is all lining up for us, but are we ready in terms of the inner job? Are we doing our inner job? And Marc: yeah, I mean, I can't even create agreement in my own family, you know, how do you create agreement in the world? And it's like, man, this feels like the tension, you know, it's like we have all of this limitless possibility arriving, but can we get out of our own way? to, to to manifest it. And I think this is the, I think this is the real role that marketers play which is [00:34:00] telling these really positive, hopeful stories that not just for people to consume, but to inspire people, you know, to be the best selves and, and to create the thing that they're, they're born to create and to be okay to do that perfectly. And in a human way and to create that kind of, you know, viral deep connection that comes with people. being alive. Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That's kind of a a good place to to come full circle. I love how you did that It's like, oh, yeah, it's all about the marketers Marc: I did start off as a marketer So, yeah, I can spin a story I can't do much but spinning a story Sarah: That's great. No exactly and I think that's really You What, [00:35:00] what we're working on is like, you know, marketing has been taught as an outside job for so many years. What I'm trying to do with humane marketing and some friends and colleagues are, you know, they're calling it differently conscious marketing and Claudia and other people. It's like, well, What if we start from the inside? What if market, a marketer is actually a healer, right? That's, that's what this is about. And it's, it's, you can call it a marketer or you can, whatever, a facilitator, whatever it is, right? If, if more people heal themselves and then help others heal, that's, that's. Marc: Yeah. I mean, I tend to, cause I work right across community and I knew the language of consciousness and healing and stuff really resonates and connects with a certain part of the community. And be at whatever stage and kind of the adoption curve that is, although that's rapidly changing. But to me, it's just good marketing. Like, let's not cloud [00:36:00] it with its own form of words. Bureaucracy and stuff like that. It's like, you know, the whole point of marketing is to emotionally connect with people to create a mutually beneficial outcome, right? That's just good marketing. Let's not dress it up. And like, we're just, we're just learning in this era that there are ways of marketing better and deep connection and trust is one of the core aspects of, you know, Marketing for as long as I've known it and it's just like we're we're learning our craft collectively. We're getting better at doing that and let's See it something else or them and us. It's just It's just good marketing. Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. I always ask now that I'm working on this book the final question is like, what does business like we're human mean to you? Like when you hear this term business, like we're human, what comes up for you? Like, what, what does that make you [00:37:00] think of? Marc: Yeah, for me, it's like this idea of mutual exchange. Yeah. You know, I think in the consciousness community, there's a lot of fear of receiving, I think, and You know, I kind of always had these visions of like, kind of the Italian markets and things like that, where there's this great flow of abundance and handing over the money and fruit and beautiful stuff coming the other way. And there's all this kind of love and conversation and things like that. So that, but there's still trade because, you know, it's, it's. It's a, it's a pain in the ass to do barter, you know, it's exhausting to like find the right person who's got the bits, you know, so there's, there's something magical in as a technology [00:38:00] commerce itself that, that allows previously impossible exchanges to place. And I think there's beauty in that. You know, the market was a place of conversation and connection and wonder and beauty and care. and you know, that to me, and it can take all forms, but the essence of that, that it's something done together from a place of, but there's still this kind of exchange going on. That's, for what that means in a modern context. You know, it's not sitting at home, pressing one click on Amazon, watching Netflix for three hours a night. Not speaking to anyone, not going anywhere that to me isn't human business, it's business. But Sarah: Yeah. It's also, it's like buying from not a human, but this giant mega list of company, right? Where on the market you see the person that you're buying from. So you [00:39:00] like, there's this establishment of trust as well. Marc: But it's not to say that I haven't had amazing things from Amazon or amazing things from Netflix. And that there is an art and wonder and love that's been put into all of these things. And, you know, we've just got to hold it lightly and say, well, okay, how do we just tweak these things a little and then be a little wiser about how we're using them and then try and build these systems in a way that bring us together rather than drive us apart. And and I think that'll be good for business, you know maybe, you know, Netflix becomes the world's greatest party planner or something, you know, like that brings people together. I'd pay a subscription for that, you know, took all the effort by meeting and, you know, Amazon was creating pop up markets all over the world to create kind of wonder. I think these things will end up being massive. Businesses that will create more commerce than the current kind of disconnected way of doing things and it's just these are really complex, complex problems is, you know, working [00:40:00] globally, but the bringing us all back to each other. Whereas I think, you know, globalization is has driven a lot of convenience, but it's also driven a lot of disconnection. And I think. You know, the businesses of the future will be much more fractal that allow us to be human and in villages and at Dunbar kind of scale of connection, but still provide us with that kind of convenience and wonder. But I think that's where things like AI are really interesting because they can hold all that complexity that I kind of hunter gatherer localized minds can't hold. And when those 2 things work in unison that work in our individual and collective best interest, then I think we'll, we'll create. Wonderful, inspiring, connecting businesses that will not be the same as the Italian markets that drove that, but will be even better. Even Sarah: better. Even better. I don't know about that one. Marc: What if that was possible? How magical would the world be? I like to, you know, see the, I [00:41:00] like your Sarah: optimism. Yeah. Well, as I Marc: say to my dystopian friends the day we all die, at least I would have enjoyed myself on the way there. What's the downside for hope, right? You know, that's the, and so, yeah, I, I, I, I'd like to think we could live in the world where the wonders of the past and the wonders of the future meet together to create something better than we can even imagine today. I don't think we have a choice. Sarah: Yeah, we don't want to be stuck where we are, so Well, we Marc: can't. We can't unify unless we honor the past and bring forward the magic of the future and do it in a way that honors us all, in a way that inspires us all and connects us all. I don't think we have a choice about that because everything else leads to, you know, a huge kind of dissatisfaction and disconnection of one society, part of society over another. So, you know, it's [00:42:00] a time for the hopeful imagineers to, you know, that COVID phrase, you know, build back better. I don't think we And you know, this is about society turning from a caterpillar into a butterfly and and you know, we're in the messy bit it's hard for a caterpillar to see what a butterfly looks like from that perspective, right? So like we it's hard to imagine from where we are going into the liquidation Liquidation that there could be a mutable butterfly the other side I don't want to you know, spend hours and hours of my life fearing for the future Yeah I want to be part of building the butterfly and not to say I don't spend hours and hours of my life figuring for the future, but like when I remember, that's pretty pointless. I get back to the, you know, the everyday wonder of spending time with amazing people, building amazing things as you do, right? And that's always what turns me to hope is when I'm in a conversation with someone like you, realizing that there are people like you all over the world in all sorts of different ways doing amazing things. And [00:43:00] that whilst it's not always easy to see on the news feeds and the social media feeds, like if you spend enough time out in the world, you, you can feel, you can feel all over every day. And whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed by the future, I just go and have coffee with someone wonderful. And it reminds me that I'm not alone in this And There are people building technology from care. There are people Bringing the markets back. There are people like doing all sorts of but you know with thumb up machines and all of these kind of other other bits and pieces that that will you know, yeah But we'll find our way. Sarah: We're just Marc: a little lost right now. Sarah: Yeah, well, I, yeah, I definitely want to talk again to you because every time I speak to you it's like, oh, you see, there's so much no, no, I'm usually a very optimistic person as well, and I still am. Surround myself by, yeah, content and, and ideas and inspiration. But yeah, talking to you, [00:44:00] it's, it just confirms all of that. It's like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm working towards. So it's been a, it's been a delight to refresh my memory with your wisdom. So so much for coming on today. You spend a Marc: day with me when I'm in family life, you'll see. See, I'm not that wise, you know, there's no pedestal here. I spent time thinking and feeling about certain things. I have some gifts, but I also have many, many weaknesses. And so I don't want to cover this space. I'm good. You know, this is my gift. But please don't get the wrong idea that I don't spend lots of time in my struggle as well. How British of you to Sarah: be so humble. Marc: Self deprecating, I think it's Sarah: the Marc: culture of birching ourselves. Sarah: And I'll just have to mention that I'll have to use the best AI possible out there to clean up the audio from all [00:45:00] the mic sounds and stuff. Marc: Do our best. Sarah: I hope it wasn't too terrible Marc: to listen to. Yeah, and the builders started hammering half way through it, but I think that's the best. The magic. Although I, although I, I invite you to put out an imperfect live offering that shows the humanism. Yeah, we'll do a mix of Sarah: humanness. We can't, you Marc: know, polishing everything also loses some of its. Some of it's magic. It's like romantic almost. As long as you put a good story on it, it's fine. Sarah: Good. Well, delightful to hang out with you, Mark. Thanks so much for being here. Marc: Take care. Sarah: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Mark's work at markwin. com or [00:46:00] connect with him on LinkedIn. And if you're looking for others who think like you, who are wanting to create this new paradigm of marketing and business, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash M 1 9 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:47:00] [00:48:00] soon.

 In today's episode of Locked On UConn, we delve into the inspiring mindset of a UConn player who epitomizes the team's spirit with the quote, “Whatever the team needs, I'm here to do it. I don't care how many points I score; I'm here to hoop and help the team win.” We introduce you to Solo Ball, a promising new recruit, discuss his journey and potential impact on the team, and explore the legacy of hiring within versus outside the family for future leadership. Tune in for insights, player highlights, and discussions on UConn's winning culture.“Whatever the team needs, i'm here too do it, idc how many pts I score, i'm here to hoop and help the team win” UConn culture, we'll tell you who this was…..You're locked on Uconn.. Thanks for making Locked On UCONN your first listen every day. We are free and available wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube as part of the Locked On Podcast Network—Your Team, Every Day.  Little houskeeping, MY YouTube support……. amazing, I'd love to have all my subscribers downloading the audio version wherever you get your podcasts its equally as important for helping the channel and the Locked ON UConn Audience grow. . So, if you can do me two quick favors: first, click that little subscribe button at the bottom of your screen, and then head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and hit that follow button. This way, you'll never miss a moment of Locked On UCONN. I can't tell you how much your support means to me—it's everything. If you're tuning in from your car, once you finish the show, please drop us a 5-star review. Good reviews, trigger referrals for similar shows where we could get some new audience members who are interested in more UConn content. Today's episode is brought to you by FanDuel. Make Every Moment More. With the playoffs over, the sports stop sporting like we want them to. But this summer, FanDuel is hooking up ALL CUSTOMERS with a boost or a bonus, DAILY! That's right, there's something for everyone, every day, all summer long! Visit FanDuel.com to get started! Lets go back to the future: a lefty combo guard out of Sharpsburg Maryland, announced his commitment to the Huskies on Friday afternoon. He's the third commit lined up for the class of 2023, and the second in the last week.Solo Ball — already in the running for best name in college sports — chose UConn over DePaul, USC, Miami, and some school in Rhode Island. He's the 69th-ranked player in 247's Composite Top 150 and the third-ranked player out of Maryland.Ball plays at Brewster Academy in New Hampshire, the same school that produced Jalen Adams. This past spring, Ball was teammates with newest UConn commit Jayden Ross on Team Melo, Carmelo Anthony's grassroots program.Ball's performance on the Nike EYBL Indianapolis session sent his stock skyrocketing to start the summer, after averaging 17.8 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists and 1.0 steals, all while shooting 57 percent from the field.  BIG GAME POTENTIAL 9 pts off the bench against Indiana 7 pts off the bench against Texas  both games he played 26 and 29 minutes respectively His best game came against another fellow 1 seed in last years tournament, North Carolina, 13pts 50 pct from 3 in 29 minutes Wax poetic about SOLO, I went back int eh archives to Sept 5 of last year, He's a tough kid, Both of his parents are from Baltimore, my favorite recruiting quote, Solo still plays like a 5 ft 5 guard, ,which he was till his sophomore year in highschool. Bred for toughness. “Whatever the team needs, i'm here too do it, idc how many pts I score, i'm here to hoop and help the team win” If that doesn't sound like a Dan Hurley guy, I don't know what is.  Lets talk-legacy, SHould blue bloods follow the UConn way and hire outside of the family, that coming up after this..,FAN DUEL  Passion, drive, and patience— the formula for winning championships is also what keeps your ride-or-die alive. eBay Motors has everything you need to maintain your vehicle and level it up to peak performance. Superchargers, roof racks, exhaust kits, LED headlights, and more—whether you're into speed, power, or style, eBay Motors has you covered. With over 122 million parts for your #1 ride-or-die, you'll always find exactly what you're looking for. And with eBay Guaranteed Fit, your part is guaranteed to fit your ride, every time, or your money back. Because with eBay Motors, you're burning rubber, not cash. With all the parts you need at the prices you want, it's easy to make your car the MVP and bring home huge wins. Keep your ride-or-die alive at Ebay Motors dot com. Eligible items only. Exclusions apply. eBay Guaranteed Fit only available to US customers. Green button: Did you know that the same things that fuel the best athletes in the world can still help the rest of us? Just ask Cam Spencer, who does every little thing he can to dial in his wellness, reduce inflammation in his body and make sure he's eating foods that fuel him - and he does that with the help of one of Connecticut's best wellness brands. Here's what he has to say about it: “I chose to partner with The Feel Good Lab because I wanted to elevate my performance, improve my health, and become more educated on my nutrition. Since we started working together, all of those goals have been reached. Now, I am continuing to find new ways to get better with the Feel Good team and am very grateful for our partnership!” In fact, that exactly why I (Mark) wanted to partner with Ryan and The Feel Good Lab. Plant-based pain relief and recovery tools, the highest quality supplements, and an at home diagnostic test, that measures what foods in MY body actually trigger inflammation. Plus, they are an official partner of UConn Basketball.  I'm on week 5 of my wellness journey and so far I feel like i'm in my 20s again. So check out the feel good lab, .  Use code “CAMSPENCER” for 12% off your order and a 10% donation to Bleeding Blue For Good.        Had a rare respectful conversation with Duke fans last night aton Twitter. about Jon Scheyer. ANd i started thinking about this when i listed to Dan on Jim Rome talking his journey. It almost sounded, and i know this isn't his intention, he was pointing out that in todays society we take shortcuts, That he took the traditional route to being the top of his profession and I wanted to talk about that but that's what prompted me to talk about this today briefly. THere isn't a more compelling use case for hiring internally vs going outside of the family than Uconn with Kevin Ollie and Dan Hurley. The beautiful thing for UConn fans is, even with K.O.'s faults we still won a title in his 2nd year which is such an outlier it's amazing in itself. And it' snot just duke, it's other blue bloods like carolina. Hubert davis, long time assitant took over for Roy Williams. Made a final four in his 2nd year lost int he title game to Kansas. So it's jus tsoemthing to think about husky fans. If Dan Was to leave, do we do what We did in the past and hire Kimani or Luke… or do we go outside the family?   Goign to chat  TBT, comign up after this:  Fan duel: I love sports. I love them so much I never want them to stop. But as the playoffs wind down, we get fewer games. And the sports aren't sportsing like I want them to. But FanDuel lets me keep the sports going whenever I want. All I have to do is open the app and dream up bets any time I'm in the mood.And this summer, FanDuel is hooking up ALL CUSTOMERS with a boost or a bonus, DAILY! That's right, there's something for everyone, every day, all summer long!So, head over to FanDuel.com and start making the most out of your summer.     Elam Ending: SOOOO TBT and the Stars fo Storrs: first tell the fans about it, because for a hoops head like me, I've wanted Uconn to get involved for the past 10 years, so how did this come about?      Are you watching Fox Sports or ESPN on your TV all day? Have to turn down the volume with all that shouting? Make the switch to Locked On Sports Today. A FREE 24/7 sports streaming channel programed for you every day to bring you the biggest stories without all the screaming. Locked On Sports Today brings you can't miss analysis, opinions and news, Streaming 24/7 on YouTube or the free Amazon Fire TV Channels App., part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team, every day.     TBT ROSTER Get ready to witness the Stars of Storrs shine once more as they take center stage in TBT. Hailing from the halls of UConn, this talented alumni team brings a blend of tenacity, talent, and a hunger for victory to the hardwood. With a storied collegiate history behind them, these former Huskies are poised to light up TBT, showcasing their skills and passion for the game as they strive to reclaim glory on the national stage and win $1 million. Jeff Adrien, Ryan Boatright, Rodney Purvis, Joey Calcaterra, Ater Majok, Jerome Dyson, DeAndre Daniels, RJ Cole, and maybe more!    Locked On has launched the first-ever national sports 24/7 streaming channel on YouTube and now it's also available on Amazon Fire TV in the free Fire TV Channels app. Locked On Sports Today is here for you 24-7 covering the top sports stories of the day with the local experts of Locked On plus our national shows covering every league. Find Locked On Sports Today now available on the free Fire TV Channels app.  This has been another episode of Locked On Uconn, I'm your host Mark Zanetto, asking you to  Stay locked in, stay connected, make sure your toughness meter is always rising, and as always Go Huskies! 

In The episode we talked to Mike Jeffers about the recent Union Despair reunion show that happened here in Buffalo on 12/30/23. We talked to Mike about the inspiration for the reunion amongst other pertinent topics.. It was a cool buffalo 90s buffalo hardcore show in 2023. Despair was the reunion show that I (Mark) always wanted and the Union reunion was the one I didnt know I needed. Epsiode music is Union playing Wither live on 12/30/23. Co host Mark went up and helped on the vocals. Thanks to Lakeeriemonster for capturing!

In The episode we talked to Mike Jeffers about the recent Union Despair reunion show that happened here in Buffalo on 12/30/23. We talked to Mike about the inspiration for the reunion amongst other pertinent topics.. It was a cool buffalo 90s buffalo hardcore show in 2023. Despair was the reunion show that I (Mark) always wanted and the Union reunion was the one I didnt know I needed. Epsiode music is Union playing Wither live on 12/30/23. Co host Mark went up and helped on the vocals. Thanks to Lakeeriemonster for capturing!

Oct 15/23 I The King's Confrontation (con't) I Mark 12:13 - 27 I Meldon Lutzer by Hope Bible Church

On this episode of the podcast Derek and I (Mark) interviewed "superfan" of the podcast Ryan Ross. Ryans been coming around to shows for a bit so we decided to ask him about his experiences. Itr was a cool fun little interview and we hope you all enjoy the interview! Episode music is "A Minute To Pray" by Smash N Grab Episode photo is by Jeff Barnes

On this episode of the podcast Derek and I (Mark) interviewed "superfan" of the podcast Ryan Ross. Ryans been coming around to shows for a bit so we decided to ask him about his experiences. Itr was a cool fun little interview and we hope you all enjoy the interview! Episode music is "A Minute To Pray" by Smash N Grab Episode photo is by Jeff Barnes

Mark Kenney is a President and Chief Executive Officer at CAPREIT   Mark Kenney joined Canadian Apartment Properties Real Estate Investment Trust (CAPREIT), a TSX listed company, in 1998. In 2019, Mark was appointed President and Chief Executive Officer. 
 
As Canada's largest publicly traded provider of quality rental housing, CAPREIT currently owns or has interests in approximately 67,000 residential apartment suites, townhomes and manufactured housing community sites well-located across Canada,  the Netherlands and Ireland. In 2020, CAPREIT was included in the S&P/TSX 60 Index. 
 
With over 30 years of experience in the multi-family sector and as President and Chief Executive Officer, Mark is actively involved in creating and implementing the strategic vision for the organization through the direction of company policy and oversight of the crucial divisions within CAPREIT, including property management operations, marketing, procurement, development, and acquisitions. A frequent contributor to BNN Bloomberg and other media, Mark is a passionate advocate for the role of Real Estate investor 

In this episode we talked about: * Mark's Background and How he Got into Real Estate * The Comparison of the Commercial Real Estate World of the 80s-90s and nowadays * Difference between Commercial Real Estate and Residential Real Estate * Pricing and Valuations of Industrial Multi-Residential * Supply in Real Estate  * Real Estate Deals in Suburban and Rural Areas * Development Costs and Charges * Areas of Investment into Manufacturing Housing * CAPREIT Focus in terms of Real Estate Projects * 2023-2024 Interest Rates Environment * Advice to Newcomers Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the Working Capital Real Estate Podcast. My name's Jessica Galley, and on this show we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica Gallen. You're listening to Working Capital, the Real Estate Podcast. My guest today is Mark Heney, president and Chief Executive Officer at Capri.   Mark joined Canadian Apartment Properties real estate investment trust, a TSX listed company in 1998. In 2019, mark was appointed president and chief executive officer as Canada's largest publicly traded provider of quality rental housing. Capri currently owns or has interest in approximately 67,000 residential apartment suites, town homes, and manufactured housing community sites. Well located across Canada, the Netherlands, and Ireland in 2020. Capri was included in the S N P and TSX 60 index.   Mark, how you doing today?   Mark (1m 3s): Great, Jesse, thanks for having me.   Jesse (1m 4s): Yeah, pleasure to have you on. You know, wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the current environment that we're in right now, you know, your background in the industry and, and Capri in general. But I guess, you know, maybe we could start with you have over 30 years experience in multifamily in that sector, and I was just curious to kind of get a little bit of a background of guests that we have on. It's always interesting to see how they got into the wild West. We called real estate.   Mark (1m 32s): Yeah, so I, I don't know, like, because I go back in time here to when I was growing up, I think it was very normal for young people to be interested in cars and real estate. It was, so, it wasn't anything that special about being drawn to real estate. I think like a lot of people I would daydream about real estate and back then it was probably just what it would be like to have a pool and a, and a big yard and, and a bit of a fascination how people got there, which kind of always stuck with me, but I didn't want to be a salesperson in real estate.   I was obviously just fascinated. Again, nothing unusual about that. And, and I found my, my way into, into real estate primarily because I probably wasn't the best student in the world and I, I really wanted to do this. So the thing I maybe haven't talked about a lot in the past was, it was an incredible opportunity because nobody, there was no competition. So a lot of my friends coming outta school we're lawyers and accountants and, and, and I, I was not the academic overachiever.   I really was always focused on just working. I didn't really understand why people went to school unless you're gonna become a doctor. I thought this isn't really helping me. And, and so I went into a field where there wasn't a lot of competition. I was one of the first people to get involved that, that had a degree and I stood out. And so the, the pool of people even today who you're competing with for a great career in real estate, especially on the property management side, I don't think it's fully understood by a lot of people.   Young people wanna go into tech, a lot of people wanna go into crypto or sales or something glitzy. But the cautionary tale is like, you know, who are you gonna be competing with in there and where can you really, you know, stand out.   Jesse (3m 37s): Yeah, fair enough. I tried to ask every time I have somebody with your amount of experience in the industry, I find I find the late eighties and early nineties commercial real estate world kind of fascinating. Not just in in North America, but specifically in the, in the kind of Toronto environment. And I find that, you know, younger people in, in the industry, I consider myself included in that. I think it's important for us to understand the history of, of some of the times that we've gone through in real estate, whether that's the early nineties, 2000, 2008 and, and what we're currently doing today.   But I'd like to just get your perspective. Obviously you're working in the industry during that time. Do you see any, any applications or do you see anything that you know, was happening back then that are reminiscent of, of what we're going through today?   Mark (4m 26s): Well, very different back then. Just to touch on what I said a minute ago, apartments in the eighties were the dirty cousin of all real estate sectors. Like nobody wanted to be involved in apartments. So that again, was a reason to go there. And I, I'd like to say I was a visionary and saw that the truth is, I, I got a raise every six months and that's why I stayed in it and by a raise, I mean, all they had to do was throw 500 bucks a year at me and I was there to stay.   Most people my age that had gotten into multifamily and it was starting to happen early nineties, would be lured into commercial immediately. Like if a commercial job was to present itself, you'd leave multifamily, go into commercial, and, and that was the general trend as you aspired to get into commercial in some form, especially office in Toronto at the time. So, so for me, I guess partially because I was, you know, excited to get a raise every once in a while I dragged into the sector longer and the longer I stayed, the more experience I had and the more sought after I became.   Jesse (5m 41s): So in terms of the kind of the history that you had with, with Kareed in, in the career in general, like I come from the, the office world and you know, I, I find it still kind of amazing today that, you know, we're very specific about when we're talking about real estate, whether it's rentable, square feet, everything's per square foot, and I talked to our apartment team and you know, we're going by either the door if it's, you know, by the unit or by the bed if it's student housing. But how, how have you seen that evolve over the last, even, even 10 years in terms of how it's, I feel like it's, you guys have now kind of been more formulaic than you may have been in the past, but it's, there still seems to be a difference between the pure commercial stuff and an apartment world.   Mark (6m 24s): So apartments, I'll give you an idea. Like in 1996, I worked for a company by, by the name of Real start. And one again, one of my career benefits with Real Start is I was hired as one of Canada's first multi province property managers. I was a district manager with Real start, but I was overseeing property in three different provinces. I, I think I was the only one in the country at the time. Okay. So the reason that's important is that the consolidation hadn't even started then.   There was the consolidation of big ownership pools in multifamily has only really happened in the last 15 years if at at most. And that's where all the career opportunities come from. So you've got for the first time a handful of big companies that you can have a, you know, a a traditional career of promotion if you're gonna be an employee, but most of the sector is still private. Most of it still is. And, and it's a great ownership path.   It's a great investment path. It's not necessarily a career path. And, and I think that now in multifamily there are institutional owners like Capri and Starlight Hazel View. You've got all these different companies that are large or, and you can have a progressive career from the entry level right to the right to the top kind of thing. But imagine a, a sector that's as old as real estate and multi-family in particular, where that opportunity's a new one. Still new, very, very few people when we're looking to hire, I, I can't find people with 10 years experience in the industry for senior jobs.   If they have 10 years of experience, they can pretty much name their own price.   Jesse (8m 11s): Yeah. And in terms of the last couple years, it's not, it's no surprise industrial multi-res, there's been some key sectors that have been red hot in terms of the demand, the the actual availability of the space. Why don't you give us a sense in terms of the, the last few years for multi-res, the pricing right now, the valuations that, that we saw. Were we just at a frothy time where the valuations were getting a bit disconnected from, from the actual real environment in terms of the rent?   Or do you have, do you take a different view on that?   Mark (8m 45s): No, I don't think so. I think my view is the institutions called cap rate or others that talk about cap rates, that's our game. The private market looks at price per door. They look at different whole set of different metrics, how much leverage they can get, is there yield spread? They don't care about yields, they just care about paying off their debt and, and they get security when they look at price per door. So when you look at our sector in general, the older assets, like we will say the, the plus 20 year assets are, are even with low capri today, trading at 30% of replacement costs.   In some cases it's basically 30 to 50 across the country. So when 97% of the market is private, like the rates are less than 3% of the market. Just to give you an idea, the apartment reach, now there's other institutional owners, but the REIT sector, all of us combined are less than 3%. Well then we'd be fool hearted to pay attention to just cap rates when the market is valuing apartments differently. So today, when you have the kind of housing crisis you have in Canada, this was, this is not gonna get solved overnight.   This is a a 10 year journey and we might have a chance of seeing some balance, but as the, as we continue to up our immigration numbers and don't outpace our development, we end up with a more and more pronounced problem. And, and so the fundamentals for multifamily are off the charts positive. The only, the only headwind we have is the potential government regulation and additional regulation which doesn't build homes that will not attract capital.   So we're in very, very interesting times right now.   Jesse (10m 31s): So I want to touch on that point. We recently had, Richard a Epstein is a professor of nyu and we were kind of talking about the regulatory environment in the US and Canada, the impact of some of these, the different policies that are being put in place. You were, you were on B N N a little earlier in 2022 discussing this, you know, this regulatory environment. We see this constant headline of affordable housing, the way we get to affordable housing, various pres prescriptive type of policies. But like you said, not necessarily addressing the supply constraints.   What is your view on that? Where, where do we get to a place where we actually can make an impact on, on housing? You know, the affordability aspect and just actually, like you said, building   Mark (11m 14s): Supply is you have to start with supply. Okay, in Canada, we have an affordability crisis and we have a supply crisis. They're, they're siblings, they're not the same thing, but they're absolutely family members. So when it comes to what needs to be done, well supply has to be addressed. So then you go affordability, well that's more of a government decision to help provide supports. Okay. Whether it be building all the housing requirements of Canada, like CMHC puts it at close to $3 trillion of investment that's required.   So the government can choose in a country where our, our debt is now our total lifelong country history debt is at a trillion, are we really gonna go 3 trillion further into the hole for the housing problem or are we gonna turn to the housing private sector to say help? So, I don't know, I've never, there's no example on the, on the history of the planet Earth and no example where the Hubble's telescope is ever seen a planet anywhere where taxes build homes, taxes do not build homes, taxes keep capital aside, uncertainty keeps capital at bay.   A clear path of investment will bring capital to work. So I think instead of like pointing fingers at who, who the boogeyman is, I think that as a country, if we do not awaken to, to the reality that the private sector has to be a big part of this, then, then the country just stays in, in the washing machine and the problem gets worse. You just can't continue to bring people into the country without, without a housing solution.   And we already don't have one for our own people. So we've gotta get focused on supply and, and I've got a lot of different views on, on why that supply problem exists.   Jesse (13m 8s): So I'd like to get into a couple of those, those views in terms of the supply, cuz you know, you hear, you hear a number of different reasons that we believe that the, this is the case. Whether it is the regulatory environment not being able to, to build, not be able to build certain asset classes. What do you see, you know, what's, what's your view on that? If you could name a couple on the supply end,   Mark (13m 30s): I'll give you one that nobody's talking about and hopefully this is interesting. Sure. Taxes, whatever, we gotta get through that gate. But then it's like, why don't we have affordability in housing in Canada? Well the number one distinguishing factor between Canada and the US is the cost of land. But why is land so expensive? We have a lot of empty land. We have a lot more empty land than the US has.   And, and so why? Well, the answer is in part that in Canada, if you need multifamily, it has to be on municipal services. Okay? If it's on municipal services, then you can put multi-family. Now, if you ever thought of it, when you drive in the countryside, you never see an apartment building. Why? Cuz it's not a municipal services. It's not because nobody wants a a sixplex there. It's cuz it's not a municipal services. Okay? So municipal services drives up the cost of land.   Cause municipals are doing nothing. Like they're slow, they're bureaucratic. There's a finite amount of land in our municipalities. Okay? So they have to expand hyper fast so that we can get things. So that's the land price issue. Then you have development fees. So before you even break ground, you in Toronto, you got $250,000 of land cost and $200,000 of, of development fees. Why? Because it has to be on municipal services. Okay. So then you go, well what do you do by that mark?   Well, if you look at the us you know, they, what, think of a, a very robustly built market, Dallas, Texas. Okay? In Dallas, Texas, they have what, what are called muni municipal utility districts muds. And in Dallas, Texas, there's 58 of them right now. And what those are is private sector building, municipal service hyper fast. So the private sector can do it more efficiently than municipalities can and they can do it faster and they can attract capital to do it.   Municipalities are capital constrained, they're efficiency constrained, they're ability constrained. So number one thing we can do is embrace a different way of getting more land to build more. In Canada, we got lots of land. There's no excuse for this. We've got a planning act that makes us put multifamily on municipal services. This is, nobody's talking about this. This is at the core of the affordability issue. Now interest rate Sure. And supply chain issues, sure.   But we, we, we, we can solve those problems. The one problem no one's been able to solve in Canada is land costs.   Jesse (16m 16s): So I'm thinking about some of these more, you know, suburban or rural areas where you actually don't have services. What does that structure look like in terms of actually getting that paid for in terms of, you know, is that something that you give credits to landowners that are there to have it built, but somebody's ultimately gotta pay for these services to, to get built? So you mentioned mud, so a private sector solution. How would something like that work in, in kind of our, our environment, our environment, let's say Ontario. Okay.   Mark (16m 44s): Have you ever been to a cottage? Sure. Have you ever been to a house in the country?   Jesse (16m 49s): Yeah.   Mark (16m 50s): Every single one of those properties is on a well and a septic, every single one without exception. Maybe it's a holding take, maybe it's a weeping bed, but they're all on wells. Okay. So it can be done. You look at manufactured home communities, they're all on, on their own water system. They all have their own private waste treatment. Okay. I love to talk about the example, the piece of land in Berry Ontario, a building lot in Berry Ontario cost about six to $700,000. That's on municipal services.   That exact same size piece of land five minutes away is about $15,000. You can't convince me that it, we know that it costs about $50,000 to private service a lot. Okay. And we know the province overseas, this, this is why I'm such a loud advocate for manufactured housing as part of the solution. It's not the urban solution, but it's part of the solution. We've told government you can have home ownership in Canada for under $200,000. That's the, the cost of a 1300 square foot manufactured home.   Sure it's not the traditional home, but people can get into the home ownership market and they're blocking them out of it right now by not permitting the zoning of these kind of communities. So when you think about it, 30 over 30 million Americans live in a manufactured home. It's been used to treat affordability for decades in Canada. We shut down the sector about 30 years ago and said no more. His multifamily needs to be on municipal services.   Jesse (18m 21s): So if there's such, like take that example, if that delta is that large between 600,000 and and 15,000, wouldn't there be, I'm thinking for just from an economic standpoint, once you have developers coming in and literally paying for those municipal services specifically per project, or is that just, isn't   Mark (18m 37s): That a good idea? That sounds like a good idea.   Jesse (18m 39s): You like that one? I just, I just made it up now I   Mark (18m 41s): Like he's listening to me. But I think it's a great idea.   Jesse (18m 44s): So that, okay, I just on the the other point there, you mentioned development, development cost. So the land cost piece, there's one, they're municipal services on the development cost. I mean, it's just from our, from my point of view, it's so expensive to build in when you hear these stats of how much development cost costs are as a percentage of the project. I don't know how we got to where we got today, but for listeners that don't know, can you talk a little bit about the development charges and costs for doing, you know, any given project, you know, in your portfolio and, and how onerous that is on the, on the developers?   Mark (19m 18s): Well, on the big cities it's over 200,000 a unit. 200 to $250,000 a unit. The land is 200 to 250,000 a unit. We haven't built anything yet. Like, so yeah, reduce those costs and then you've got the hard costs. But if we could knock 30, 35% out the cost of home ownership by being efficient, that's a good start. That helps things out. And then, and then overly supplied market will just bring balance into developer profits. That's a good idea.   So like, we've got answers here. There's a hundred percent answers. It's just sad that we're not embracing these, these solutions. It's, it's, it's instead, you know, on the manufactured home front, I call them tiny eco homes, like 1300 square feet is not actually tiny. It's a pretty decent size livable space, but they're stigmatized. People like to call trailer parks and all this, but forget that if you saw these new homes, you would, you would really have a hard time convincing anybody that they're, you know, a stigmatized way of living. It's dignified living.   Jesse (20m 18s): So we have a, we have a few guests that have come on, just investors in the states, different companies. And manufactured housing is, you know, big topic for a lot of the, a lot of different states for those, you know, when you talk to Canadians about it, it's just something that the average person I find they're not as familiar with and don't even know where it is in Canada. If we even have any you guys have invested in, in manufactured housing, what, what areas are these? You know, are guys everywhere?   Mark (20m 45s): Everywhere. They're, they're, they're, they're ideally saluted suited in remote locations where you can't get a carpenter, you can't get a brick builder, you can't get a whatever. They're built in a controlled environment and moved. So they're perfect for those locations. They're also perfect for rural locations. Like I, we have three communities outside of Aurelia and Barry. Okay, perfect locations, they're affordable. The people don't have to buy that $600,000 piece of land. They can rent that land, okay for two or $300 and they can buy a new home for $200,000.   This is extreme affordability. They don't have the capital outlay for the land and they do for the home, but they have a serviceable amount of debt less than the cost of rent. So, so why not give people the option? It's regulated by the province. There's with brand new infrastructure, you don't have the risk of aging infrastructure communities. And, and, and it's, it's kind of like there's no excuse quite frankly that we're not doing this and to say, oh, we don't know about it. Well, Canada was doing this for decades until planning acts were changed.   So that multi-family had to be on municipal services.   Jesse (21m 55s): And when did   Mark (21m 56s): All this, all this untapped land,   Jesse (21m 58s): When did that, that, sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, when did that happen? Were we, were, we basically mandated that it had to be on municipal   Mark (22m 5s): In the eighties when housing was affordable. Hmm. Don't remember in Canada, like immigration was never a topic because we had affordable housing. We've, we've hit the tipping point here, you know, probably 20 years ago and nobody woke up and now we're in a catastrophe and we're making it worse by, by putting more people in ho in homeless situation.   Jesse (22m 26s): So what do you see Mark, as the kind of going forward, if, if something isn't done here, is, is it the political will that's, that's kind of inh hindering this is, is it other factors that, that are really stopping us from being able to kind of push forward with some of these prescriptions?   Mark (22m 42s): I think, I think the narrative of blaming REITs or blaming parties is failing fast. I think nimbyism is quickly disappearing because the, the, the situation has become dire. So I'm hopeful that it takes a good reset to get, get people thinking I am, I'm frustrated by personality type, but I, I find it hard to believe that when we've got like such obvious examples that we can duplicate like municipal unit utility districts and manufactured homes as a, a solution and, and the whole host of things that we can do.   And we're not doing any of it. Not in event like we're talking, but problem. And I think I hopefully we're getting beyond the finger pointing and getting onto solution phase. But anybody in real estate I think owes Canada the obligation of speaking up. And I keep saying this, like we've gotta stop being polite about it. Like people need to start asking hard questions in public about why we're not pursuing solutions. So there are, there, there are, like the province of Ontario has, has, has, has taken action.   And, and that's, that's a, a decent step, but I think it, it it's, it's all hands on deck. Like as the, the REIT community, for example, REIT sector in Canada has 230,000 units planned of new, new apartment development. Now that's not just the apartment REITs, that's the, the diversify its as well that's in the pipeline and the government's talking about taxing REITs. So, so that's gonna disappear. So we got a pipeline and a and a and a and a and a solution.   But we've got, we've got a narrative around, I don't even know what it's around anymore that REITs are destroying affordability. Like if that's the case, then what's going on in Canada right now?   Jesse (24m 29s): When you say tax rates, you're talking about losing the kind of the flow through status that they were pretty much created for.   Mark (24m 35s): I think, I think there's a narrative that REITs don't pay tax and that's not true. Our unit holders pay income tax, those income tax rates are higher than corporate tax. Yep. So it's a narrative around big is bad, but we're tiny and, and, and we're not bad. So instead of like picking on big, I think pick on bad behavior is what I'm an advocate for. Like if there is bad behavior by actors out there, then those actors should be, should be corrected. But you can't, you can't chase someone because they're perceived as being a large entity.   You need to chase someone cuz their behavior is bad. So I'll give you an example. Cabret is only doing new construction apartments now. That's all we do. We're not buying the value add assets anymore, we're selling them. So how is this bad for Canada at a time when we're like, I don't understand, I'm lost.   Jesse (25m 25s): Yeah. Can't have it both ways.   Mark (25m 27s): You can't have it both ways.   Jesse (25m 29s): So Murray, I wanna be mindful of the time here, but I do want to talk a little bit on a positive note in terms of the, the projects that Capri is working on. Anything exciting in the pipeline that you'd, you'd wanna mention and you know, maybe even touch a little bit? I've know, I know that you're in Ireland in the Netherlands, which is kind of cool. I don't think we hear enough about that locally. So I'll Yeah, I'll let you go there.   Mark (25m 52s): Well our focus is really on Canada cuz the crisis is here and, and we have to contribute in any way we can here. So what I get very excited about is that we are still, we're doing quite a bit of disposition work, selling some of the older assets. I'm a big advocate for putting those assets in nonprofit hands. If you want to solve affordability, why not go to a targeted neighborhood that has affordability pro problems? Why not? Why not help those people?   And, and, and you can do it now and fast. I don't understand why you build something for a hundred cents on the dollar when you buy for something for 30 cents on the dollar now in a neighborhood that needs help. So I'm excited about that, that conversation and we're getting great, great traction with government finally understanding that this is a, a part of the solution. It's not, not not gonna solve affordability crisis, but it'll help some folks that are distressed potentially. And it's better than building new, I think I'm very excited about.   There's been a bit of a move away from Nimbyism and more into getting good entitlement and we're getting that on our land. So I'm very hopeful that those entitlements will, will obviously help the supply scenario whether we build on it or someone else does. We're doing our part in getting it ready for the market. And I feel very, very good about just, you know, always being a Canadian in the fundamentals of Canada. So I think that we're in, you know, living in one of the world's greatest countries and you know, the, the prospects and the fundamentals for real estate in this country are, are best in the world probably.   And everybody wants to live here. I think that, you know, as Canadians we are, we, we have proven that we can wake up from time to time and I think we're in that awakening stage right now of really getting serious to solve the problem.   Jesse (27m 41s): Fair enough. One thing I'd, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about the, the current interest rate environment and kind of, you know, the feds just announced the 25 basis point raised recently. You mentioned, I I've, I've read an article, either an article or there was something that you were talking about last year where Capri is, if not the leader, one of the longest debt companies. In terms of, in terms of your capital structure on the debt side, what do you see 20 23, 20 24, how do you see this environment playing out in terms of interest rates?   Mark (28m 15s): Well, our, we always do 10 year money when we buy. We always model that. We always do that on renewal. We're always inclined to do 10 or 15 year debt. So our ladder is long and our leverage is low. We have the lowest leverage of our peers and we have the longest debt ladder of our peers. That's great. We also have a very active disposition program in the affordable market. We're seeing lots of private buyers. Oddly enough, it's not in the core apartment market, it's in the affordable apartment market.   It's a very strange phenomenon and in part it's because a lot of these private guys were never invited to bid in the past and they're just anxious to be able to get their hands on some of this property and they love the price per unit. So as we're selling out of the, of the lowest here rent wise of the market, we are able to defer even further our, our refinancing requirements. So we're staying out of the debt market with the bet that things will improve in, in 2024 and beyond.   But it's all, it's all a matter of inflation data. You just gotta watch that inflation data inflation's coming down, then hopefully we see a return to, to more normalized rates. But I think that, you know, we're not gonna settle where we were. I I I see, you know, the return of 10 year high 3% rate money for multifamily.   Jesse (29m 41s): That makes sense. So Mark, we always wrap up with a couple quick questions for our guests. I'll, I'll start off here. What would you tell somebody that is getting into our industry, whether it's in multi-res or commercial real estate in general, you know, what advice would you give them?   Mark (29m 59s): Stick. Stick. If you love it, stick with it. You know, the advice I had way back in the day was that, you know, points of my career, I love my job and I didn't like my boss. That doesn't mean leave the sector, okay? It means get a new boss. So you do have control of that, but if you don't love what you do, don't do it. You got it's okay to make change and find, find what you love to do. If you do love what you do, don't give up. Stick with it. I, I have without exception, a group of friends go back to high school that have all achieved success.   Well, the ones that achieved success and the ones that stuck with, with, with what they like doing and if they stayed in the area, the, the market finds that, that enthusiasm, the market finds the talent. You have a responsibility to go seek out your best option. But don't seek it out too often cuz you had a bad Thursday afternoon. You know, don't be afraid to, to build some grit. But when you have to make those strategic changes, when, when, when it's just not working. If you don't like your boss, change, change your boss.   Jesse (31m 4s): What is a book, podcast newsletter that you'd recommend to listeners?   Mark (31m 8s): Too busy working. I, I don't, I don't know. This one seems pretty good.   Jesse (31m 12s): My guest today has been Mark Kenny. Mark, thanks for being part of Working Capital.   Mark (31m 15s): Thanks for having me.   Jesse (31m 24s): Thank you so much for listening to Working Capital, the Real Estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for Galley. If you like the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media. It really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R A G A L E. Have a good one. Take care.  

We did it! Knocking out episodes of the Pink Fox Podcast like we use to. Rev and I (Mark here, btw) talk about a couple of topics. It felt like a fun episode to chat about. I am hoping it is a fun episode to listen to. From everyone here at Pink Fox - we are wishing you and your family a happy and safe holiday season!

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E40 TRANSCRIPT:----more----     Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca,  Mark: and I'm the other one Mark.  Yucca: And today is very exciting cuz we are actually going to be interviewing you, mark, about a project that you've been working pretty hard on and has just passed a a  Mark: m. Right. I've been writing the, the second atheo paganism book. And, or, or, well, I'll get into details about exactly what it is, but I've been writing that for a year and I just completed the manuscript and I'm ready to submit to Llewellyn the publisher. Mm-hmm. . Which is good cuz it's due on November 30th, so it needed to happen pretty soon. Hey, you're. Yeah, a little bit. Yucca: That's, that's impressive. Yeah. . So let's start with you know what, well, first of all, this is your second book, right? It's  Mark: actually my third. Your third, okay. I have a collection of poetry that I published in 2020 called A Red Kiss. Mm-hmm. . But this is my second nonfiction.  Yucca: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about what it is? Does it have a set title?  Mark: It has a working title. Okay. I, I hope that Llewellyn will find that to be an acceptable title. It's called “Round We Dance: Joyous Living Around the Year and Throughout Life.” Mm. Okay. And so it's a little bit different than the first AOP Paganism book. In the first book, there were essentially two sections, and the first one was kind of about my exploration of what a religion is and what it does for us and the science behind that and kind of leads up to. Leads up to the question of, okay, well if we were gonna create a a religion tomorrow, what would that look like? How would we incorporate all scientific knowledge and critical thinking and still have those beneficial effects, those good feelings that come from rituals and celebrations and community and all that stuff? So that's the first section of the first. And then the second section is about an implementation of those ideas, which is atheism. Mm-hmm. . So it explains about the principles and the four sacred pillars and the wheel of the year, and a ritual format and all that kind of stuff. So that's the first book, the one that's already out and that I'm sure a number of our listeners have this book is a little bit more general in its audience. Okay. The i, the idea here is that, You know, there's this flood of people who are leaving institutional religions. Mm-hmm. , the, the number is just climbing with every passing year. The number of people that self identify as Christian in the United States plummeted by 12% over the last 10 years. Wow. So, and, and what most of those people are becoming is not some other religion. They're becoming what are known as nuns, n o n E S. Mm-hmm. , not, not nuns, like Catholic nuns, , nuns. Like, I'll have none that, yeah. Right. And. The nuns subdivide into several categories, some of whom are kind of hardcore anti theists. Many of them feel very burned by their religious experience and angry and heard about that. You have other people who are just disinterested and feel like the values of institutional religions like Christianity don't resonate with themselves. They don't, they're not into the, the biases and the mm-hmm. . Shaming and all that kind of stuff, and many of those folks are looking for something else. They're looking for something that adds meaning to their life, that builds community that they can share with. That's something that they can share with their families. That gives them a sense of purpose and focus and the kind of pleasure that comes from having rituals in your life. Right? Mm. and Atheopagan is an answer to that, but this book is more about, the book talks about Atheopagan is a lot, but, and it explains the Atheopagan ritual format and the Wheel of the Year. Mm-hmm. . But it's really meant for that broader category of people who. Feel something's missing and are working to find something that will infuse their life with more of that sense of meaning and specialness and wonder.  Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Okay. So do you feel that it would be something valuable to people who do identify as Aio Pagans as well? Mark: I do, because it's a much more how to kind of book. Mm. The the first book was much more theoretical. This book has sections on, you know, examples of different kinds of healing rituals and different kinds of rites of passage and different kinds of ways to celebrate the holidays of the Wheel of the year. And A, a section on ritual arts, which includes things like making siles and talismans and spell jars and handle magic and all those kinds of things as well. So there's a lot more sort of practical roll your sleeves up stuff in this book that I think will really be of use to people in the Atheopagan community. Hmm.  Yucca: That sounds like so much fun to write.  Mark: It was, it was, and that section that I just mentioned was particularly fun. Mm-hmm. , all the, the different, you know, the, the different sorts of witchy, ritual arts that people use in the course of implementing their, their ritual practice. Right. Because they're fun even when they're even when. Meant to observe something very solemn. There is a pleasure in implementing those kinds of practices. Mm-hmm. , which is part of why we do them right, and why I offer them to people that don't have a ritual practice now as an example of things that they could do. Mm-hmm. .  Yucca: Hmm. So you mentioned that Atheopagan is mentioned quite a bit in the book. Yes. But do think this is a book. Somebody could give to a relative or a friend who has a religious practice that isn't necessarily agonism, but still benefit from your  Mark: book. Sure. So long as that person's religious path isn't one that is exclusive mm-hmm. , there are a lot of religious paths out there that say, you have to follow our path and no other path, but that, right. Mm-hmm. and, you know, it's sinful or wrong, or, Erroneous or whatever it is. If you do anything else. I think there's a lot of activities in here and a lot of ideas in this book that can add to people's enjoyment of life. Mm-hmm. , and I think anybody who is interested in kind of a deeper inquiry in living as a human. Could enjoy this book.  Yucca: Mm. Okay. So maybe the, the friend that is a Pagan, but you know, they're kind of into the God thing or the fairies or that sort of thing. They still have a lot to to get out of your book. I  Mark: think so. Yeah. You know, there may be a couple of parts where they kind of bristle a little bit because I talk about critical thinking and, you know, I have my own position on that. Right. But but by and large, you know, The, the tutorial on how to make a si that'll work for anybody. Whatever they believe about Gods. So, yeah. You know, I, I think all that stuff could, it, it, it'll still be a, a helpful compendium of information for people, I think, to kind of a one stop place to go and look at how to do these things. Yucca: Hmm. Okay. And so was there a favorite section of  your.  Mark: You know, I have to say that ritual arts section was really fun to write. Just all the different cool witchy things that we like to do, you know, making potions and working with You know, with written messages and ceiling them with ceiling wax and, you know, or burning them in a cauldron, cauldron, magic, things like that. That you don't have to believe in anything supernatural about. And I'm very clear, like in the section on divination, I, I say at the outset, we have no evidence that fortune telling really exists. Right. But we do know that our subconscious minds exist. Mm-hmm. , and we can learn a lot more about the current situation, the present by using complex symbol systems to sort of tease out what the thinking underneath our thinking is through the process of using these divination tools. And once again, it's a really cool, evocative aesthetic thing to do. But it also can have a. A real emotional and spiritual value. Mm. So writing that section was a lot of fun.  Yucca: Nice. Well, it seems like a pretty, a pretty big process to write. Not just that section, but all of the sections. Was there, were there any insights that really ended up surprising you that you had in your process of creating this  Mark: book? Yeah, I'm, I'm wondering about that. One of the things that I realized is that in talking about the Wheel of the Year mm-hmm. , you know, there's a, there's a little section at the bottom of the discussion of the Wheel of the Year for people in the Southern Hemisphere mm-hmm. , because everything's flipped by six months. Right. Their winter solstice is in June. Right. And what occurred to me is that in the course of describing the names that I've given to the stations on the Wheel of the Year for, if you're in the Southern hemisphere, it really doesn't make any sense to call the 31st of October Mayday. Yeah, that's, that doesn't work very well. So, so I renamed it Summer Tide for the Southern Hemisphere Summer Tide. Okay. Which I think can work a lot better. Yeah. and I also renamed in, in the first Atheopagan book and in, in the writings on the blog and all that kind of stuff, I've referred to the winter solstice as u mm-hmm. , which is a no word meaning wheel. Mm-hmm. and I decided that, you know, I already made this decision that I'm not gonna draw stuff forward from other various cultures. Maybe it would just be better to call that mid-winter. Mm. In this book, I've called it Mid-Winter instead of ull. It's a small chain. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's not, there's brief descriptions of the principles and the four pillars, just so that people understand what Athe Paganism is. But this is really a book about rituals and so it's much more, you know, implementation. How do you do this stuff? How do you get yourself in the right mood? What is the ritual state? How can you cultivate the ritual state? What are the various phases that we go through in implementing a ritual? How do you prepare yourself before and, you know, ground and, and reestablish yourself after a ritual? , lots of, of those kinds of things. It's a very practical book.  Yucca: Mm. And what was your process like writing it? Did you, did you use any ritual to write or create the book?  Mark: Well, it, it's, it's kind of funny. We were talking about this in the Saturday Zoom mixer this morning we're recording on Saturdays. We usually do. What I ended up doing is I have a drop front desk an old antique secretary that you, you drop the, that you lift it down? Yeah. That, yeah. You just, you lower that down and then it becomes the shelf that you write on. Mm-hmm. and I was writing there with my laptop on the shelf. So what ended up happening was that opening, that desk became the ritual beginning of my writing periods. There were times it was very hard to make myself, you know, barricade myself in my room for four hours at a pop and just write right? But that was what was required. The book is currently at something over 56,000 words and the specs for. Turning the manuscript in were between 55 and 60,000. So getting there required a lot of effort. Right. A lot of just sitting for hours and writing things, and then editing and editing and editing and editing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , tens of thousands of words. I mean that's,  Mark: yeah, that's a lot of words. It's a lot of words. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. I mean, this, this is, this is a book so that that ritual opening of the desk became the, the symbolic moment when I clicked into, okay, now I'm a writer, now I'm writing mm-hmm. mode. Now that the, now that the work is done, I haven't opened the desk since . I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to recalculate my my thinking. About what opening the desk means.  Yucca: No. Now you haven't worked with this particular editor before, right? So you don't really know, you know how much they're going to revisions they're gonna want, or, or things like that. Mark: I have no idea and I'm nervous. You know, for all I know, I'm gonna get back, you know, 300 edits and I'm gonna have to read through everyone, decide if I agree with them or not. Fight over the ones that I'm really willing to fight for and so forth. Yeah. I, I honestly, I just have no idea of what that process is gonna be like, but the book is projected to come out in the second half of 2023. Mm-hmm. , so there is plenty of time yet, which. I mean, that sounds like a lot of time, but it's really not that much time when you consider, you know, that we've gotta get cover art together and finalize the whole manuscript, get it all laid out properly and then start the marketing process. You know, because promotion starts before the book actually gets published. There's pre. Re release sales and all that kind of stuff. Right. And because I self-published the first book, I'm really not familiar with those parts of the process at all. I'm really interested in finding out how that all works.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. So that's exciting cuz it's a very different process than, than what you've done before. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. ,  Mark: yeah. Mm-hmm. . I, I think I've talked about this maybe, maybe on the podcast before. I'm not sure. I will probably not make as much money on this book as I did on my self-published book. Sure. And the reason for that is that I actually get eight bucks for every copy of my book that gets of my first book that gets bought. I'll probably get something like 80 cents . Mm-hmm. , from these, but hopefully the, the promotion and marketing and all that kind of stuff that the publisher will do will mean that a lot more copies get sold. Right. I made a deliberate decision that I wanted my ideas to get a lot broader distribution. This. And,  Yucca: and there's a prestige that goes along with being published through a traditional publish.  Mark: Yes. Right. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And now I'm kinda locked into them because in my contract is that they have right of first refusal of my next book. So , they'll, they'll get to decide whether they wanna publish that one too. I can't get myself out quite that easily.  Yucca: do you, so that was gonna be one of my questions was what's next? Do you have another book on the.  Mark: Do not have any idea about another book? Can  Yucca: you even think about it right now?  Mark: I mean mm-hmm. No, I mean, my guess is that if I were gonna write another book, because this one has been really exhaustively practical. Mm-hmm. probably be much more of a mythopoetic book. Mm-hmm. that would be poems and stories and you know, kind of. Kind of a walk into an atheopagan world. Mm-hmm. of wonder and joy and experience and meaning. But that's a long way off. And I'm, I'm certainly not going to open my desk now and start working on that I'm I'm taking a break for a while and, you know, dealing with these edits, I, my work is by no means finished. I'm still gonna have a lot of work to do, but this phase at least has been completed, so that's exciting. Yeah. I'm so, I appreciate that you were willing to, Do this kind of prequel, promotional thing on the podcast. Yeah, it's I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about the book again as it comes closer to publication time. Yucca: We will, it will let everybody know, you know, when that, when that's happening and you know where to, where to pick it up when it happens. Do you know if there will be an audio component? Was that part of your discussion or contract?  Mark: I know Luellen does do audio books, and I think it's probably a function of how many copies they sell. Of a given book to see whether they would do an audio version or not. I know that they do that for some of their other better known authors. Right. I don't know. I, I think they have the option to do it in my contract, but it's not guaranteed.  Yucca: Would this be a format that would work very well with audiobook since you have a lot of instructions? Kind of recipe type  Mark: things. Yeah. And actually there are a bunch of recipes. There's a whole section in the appendices on, you know, with recipes for the different seasonal holidays. Mm-hmm. , you know, things. Would go well at that time of year. Yeah, I'm not sure. I, I don't know that that's necessarily the, the best way to absorb this information because listening to someone reading recipes is probably not the best  Yucca: well, I ask most motivating kind of time. I love books and I suspect a lot of our listeners are on a podcast right now, you know, may enjoy that as well. So it's always interesting to see if that's, If that's a possibility, if that's standard, you know how that works. Right,  Mark: right. Yeah. I would still very much like to get my first book in audio book form. Mm-hmm. . I don't know how I can do that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's my next project. Maybe it's just I. You know, me, me sitting with Audacity reading my first book and getting that into shape where it can be released as an audio book. I do know that there will be digital versions of this book released as well for the Nook and the Kindle  Yucca: and all that. It's available as an ebook then. Okay. Yes. So people don't have to get the physical book. They can just. That's right. Get it on whatever device they're more most comfortable with. Uhhuh. That's great.  Mark: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm pretty excited. Two months ago I was sick of it, , I was just, oh, I was so ready to be done with the writing, but I, I got another spurt behind me and And now it's done. So I'm pretty excited about that.  Yucca: Well, congratulations, mark.  Mark: That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. And I want to thank everybody who's encouraged me to write it too. You know, a lot of folks from the community have really urged me to write a followup that's more hands on. Mm-hmm. . And that's this book. So I'm, I'm excited about that.  Yucca: So, so the book is no book on the, no book on the immediate horizon. No. Fourth book. But what else? Cuz you're, you're a busy person.  Mark: What's, I have a job, which is kind of scary because when I do get a job and it is a, when it's not an if the Then I'm, I'm really gonna have to be very careful about my time management in order to juggle everything that I've taken on. And of course, you know, in the Atheopagan community we welcome volunteers to help with stuff. You know, the volunteers we have are wonderful people and they're really, really helping things. Sort of blossom in our, in our community. What we, what we're doing on the Ethiopia Pagan Society Council coming up in January cuz we meet quarterly, is we're going to do a strategic plan for the organization for the next three years or so. Years. Mm-hmm. . And I think that's really gonna focus down the priorities. I need to work on and what other people need to work on. In order to advance the goals that we set. Yeah. And I don't know what those goals will be yet. I imagine a lot of it will be about, you know, reinforcing various kinds of support for the existing community rather than a lot of focus on expansion. Mm-hmm. ,  Yucca: We've done a lot of expanding in the last few years. We really grown so  Mark: much. Yeah. Yes. And I wanna make sure that people have. The training, the classes, the materials, the resources, the the stuff Yeah. All that support. Yeah. That, that will help support them as they develop their practices. So, so that, that's my idea of a, of a main goal. But we'll talk about it in January and see what we all come up with. Yeah.  Yucca: Which is just, Just around the corner.  Mark: It it is. Yeah. I sent out an outline about how the strategic planning process works to the members of the council maybe 10 days ago. Mm-hmm. , something like that. Yeah. And hoping everybody gets a chance to take a look at that before we start in, so we don't have a five hour meeting. Yucca: Yeah. And so here on the podcast, we have a few more interviews coming up, and then we're right into the solstice season, so we'll have a lot right about that.  Mark: We're gonna have interviews with members of the a Pagan Society Council, sort of, they'll be interspersed amongst. Episodes. Mm-hmm. . Next week we're talking with Michael Hallon, which should be a great conversation. I'm really looking forward to that. There are other folks who are too busy until after the holidays, and so, you know, we'll be talking with them probably in January. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, stay tuned. We'll, we'll, we'll get around to, to most of the council members at one point or another. Just give it a wait. Yucca: Yeah. And of course, along with all of the seasonal and holiday and Yeah. Yeah. Dark and cold themes of the year and all of that Good stuff. So, Uhhuh.  Mark: Yeah, so the book is called Round We Dance. I always, I, I changed it. Early on, joyous living around the year and throughout life. So round we dance, joyous living around the year and throughout life. A book about spirituality and rituals by Mark Green. That's, that's what the book will be. Beautiful. . Yeah. I'm, I'm excited. It's I can't believe it's my third book. Yeah, that's  Yucca: just, that's in a very short period of time you've been. Right. Yeah,  it's  Mark: true. I started in on the first book in 2018. Mm-hmm. . So, yeah, not so long. I mean, the poetry book was easy to pull together cuz I'd already written all the poems. Nemea had already taken all of the photographs that we used to illustrate the book. Mm-hmm. . So it was basically just a matter of doing the layout and then the self-publish. But the other two have been quite a lot of work and yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to working with Luellen and seeing how that process goes. Yeah. So, shorter episode this week, folks. But thanks for listening and I hope that you're sufficiently interested to, to anticipate this book being released. And we'll be back next year with no, next year. We'll be back next week. It feels like .  Yucca: And it does . Yeah. , we'll be back next week. Yeah. To talk with you more. So thank you every. Thank you, mark.  Mark: Thank you.  

In this episode Derek and Mark interviewed Travis Johnson from the band Grain Assault (and others) . Travis has been around forever but I (Mark) didnt know him until his band Grain Assault (who is the episode music) Travis is a a pretty prolific guitarist who seems to almways be working on some project (pandemic be damned!) We talked to Travis abou getting into the scence and his life in it. We also talk to Travise about what he has to do with Big City Greens. Check it out and enjoy this conversation with Travis Johnson. Episode Music is "Wake Up Call" by Grain Assault https://grainassault716.bandcamp.com/

In this episode Derek and Mark interviewed Travis Johnson from the band Grain Assault (and others) . Travis has been around forever but I (Mark) didnt know him until his band Grain Assault (who is the episode music) Travis is a a pretty prolific guitarist who seems to almways be working on some project (pandemic be damned!) We talked to Travis abou getting into the scence and his life in it. We also talk to Travise about what he has to do with Big City Greens. Check it out and enjoy this conversation with Travis Johnson. Episode Music is "Wake Up Call" by Grain Assault https://grainassault716.bandcamp.com/

This week we are on a Spanish Caravan. Mina Walkure from the awesome band from Spain, Kramp is here pounding out some killer sword and sorcery metal! Athena is back with a new segment of Metal Mischief. This week she and I (Mark) are discussing Brighton, UK's instrumental doom band BODING, their new album just released on 8/16/2022. Then we pay homage to the metal masters that aren't really considered metal, but totally are! KRAMP Linktree: https://linktr.ee/kramp?fbclid=IwAR0Jt00NqrS87-fEgYEyrzXkUkJu9QRdFPQQMc22ycC1r7i_t5zSaN2v3mw Athena Prychodka's Metal Mischief: BODING - http://www.bodinguk.bandcamp.com Links to our Sponsors & Partners: Ageless Art Tattoo & Piercing - Clarksville/New Albany: http://www.agelessartclarksville.com http://www.agelessartna.com Mom's Music/Maxwell's House of Music: http://www.momsmusic.com http://www.maxwellshouseofmusic.com IG: @momsmusicstore IG: @maxwellshouseofmusic SHURE: https://shure.pxf.io/c/3325323/879980/12212?prod=aonic50&source=facebook Record Labels: Unchained Tapes: http://www.unchainedtapes.bigcartel.com and use PROMO CODE: "METALFORGE10" at check out for a 10% Discount! Mercenary Press: http://www.mercenarypress.bigcartel.com and use PROMO CODE: "METALFORGE" at check out for a 10% Discount! Metal Assault Records: http://metalassault.com/ Other shows you can listen to: The Wrestling Steve Show: http://www.facebook.com/wrestlingsteve Night Demon Heavy Metal Podcast: http://www.nightdemon.net https://open.spotify.com/show/2ozLCAGQ4LdqJwMmeBYJ7k?si=OvvfZsNYRPqywwb86SzrVA It's Gonna Get Weird Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7axYoFJfUKM4TggZpcilAw?si=uhDUYcVERkuu-tPGzdro1w YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx9Quuw8LjUrc6FdTEv22GQ Zines: Soulgrinder Zine: http://www.facebook.com/soulgrinder.zine OFFICAL LINKS OF THE METAL FORGE® http://www.metalforgeradio.com http://www.patreon.com/metalforgeradio FB/IG/TW/TikTok - @metalforgeradio Athena Prychodko's Metal Mischief and Thrashers & Destroyers: https://www.facebook.com/ThrashersandDestroyers Jason Gardner's Heavy Metal Wasteland: Links coming soon! YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn4AA2mVNEFAyVeXRAE8u1A The Metal Forge® Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0XCBtgJeTpfZ7c60xjIUkF The Metal Forge® Playlist #2 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7tjWRTGs728xyp6IUHsjtW Go to: https://officialoverload.bandcamp.com/merch/the-metal-forge-patch and use PROMO CODE: "ANVIL" at check out for a 10% Discount! All Rights Reserved. Any unauthorized reproduction/duplication is expressly forbidden without prior written consent and is punishable by law. Metal Forge Intro copyright 2020 The Metal Forge® Published by UNTIL I GET IT RIGHT MUSIC/ASCAP. The Metal Forge®, please contact metalforgeradio@gmail.com for any and all other info. All other music is owned by writers/publishers respectively and is used with permission for means of promotion. ©2019-2022 The Metal Forge® --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/metalforgeradio/support

Kvällspredikan av Filip Boork. Tro kan uppstå på oväntade platser. Och människan med en uppriktig tro kommer alltid oförställd, helt beroende av Guds nåd och förbarmande. I Mark 7:24-37 tar Jesus vägen genom hedningarnas område och möter platser och människor som förmodligen skulle ha ansetts högst orena och ovärdiga. Men Jesus kommer nära, bringar renhet, helande och upprättelse. På samma sätt kan vi idag få se uppriktig tro växa fram på oväntade platser och också själva få uppleva Jesu närhet och omsorg om oss.

"Thou shalt not cut and paste the client brief." "No brief is an island." "Show the tension in the strategy." "Share it with the creatives." In today's Sweathead episode, Will Humphrey talks about 20 pieces of no-nonsense advice on how to write, sharpen, and present a creative brief. Will Humphrey is an integrated planner of 15 years' experience, having worked at a huge variety of agencies (Advertising, PR, CRM, Digital) on many different clients - from telco to charity, to FS and beer. He's taught APG courses, judged the Effies, written the odd award paper, and won a pitch or two. He likes good writing, tea, pub quizzes, and taxidermy. One of those is a lie. Connect with him at http://twitter.com/will_humphrey or https://will-humphrey.com/. P.S. I (Mark) managed to skip words in parts of this interview. As in, I introduce Will as "strategy", which is pretty good for Will but makes no sense. Sometimes my brain misfires but, luckily, Will is fully coherent. ** Find out about our strategy classes at http://www.sweathead.com Follow the fun on Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/sweathead Subscribe to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/dscjW5

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com Suntree Retreat: https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/news-and-events/suntree-retreat-2022/ ----more---- S2E34 TRANSCRIPT and Recipe: Reconstituted Yule Metheglin Recipe Ingredients Montrachet yeast (1 packet) Yeast nutrient, 1 oz. 12 lbs. high-quality honey (thyme, thistle, or wildflower honeys are nice for this recipe) Zest of four large or eight small oranges 5 cinnamon sticks, broken into pieces 12 cloves, broken 10 large slices fresh ginger, bruised with a hammer to release flavor 5 gallons water   Equipment Large cooking kettle Candy thermometer Jar Muslin Rubber band Food-grade five-gallon fermenting bucket Brewing airlock Glass carboy, 5 gallon Champagne bottles Caps and capping press Method Start the yeast 2 days ahead. Take a sterilized jar and add a tablespoon of honey. Pour on a ¼ pint to ½ pint of boiling water and stir to mix. When cooled to 20°C or below, add the yeast and yeast nutrient. Keep covered but not airtight, a muslin cover affixed with a rubber band or string is ideal. Put the spices, zest and ginger into a large cooking kettle. Add about 2 gallons of water. Bring to a boil and simmer for 20 minutes, covered. Put all but 2/3 cup of the honey into a food-grade fermenting bucket and strain the herb liquid through muslin cloth onto it whilst still hot. Stir the honey until dissolved. Top up with water to four gallons total. Allow to cool to 20°C and then add the prepared yeast starter A fierce fermentation should begin quickly. After a few days to a week the rate will have slowed and the must can be poured into a carboy and topped up to five gallons with cooled boiled water prior to fitting the air-lock. Keep in a warm place until fermentation stops. Move the carboy into a cool place and when ready to bottle, stir in 2/3 cup additional honey. Rack off into champagne bottles, and cap.   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark.  Yucca:  And I'm Yucca.  Mark: And it has rolled around to this time of year. Once again, we are at the autumnal Equinox.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Which is sometimes called Mabon, although there's great debate. And in some cases scorn about that term. And I prefer to call harvest. Yucca: Mm. So it's for me, at least it's amazing that here we are all around. It's this year has flown by, but also just seasonally what's happening doesn't quite feel like we're there yet. It's still, the summer has just been really, really dragging. We're still having our hot days. The nights are, you know, you need sweaters and whatnot, but there's that chills just not there yet. And we wonderfully, still got some rains recently. I just haven't quite turned that corner. Although I suspect in the next few weeks, it'll be like the snap of a finger and it'll all of a sudden it'll be autumn, but it just really isn't here yet.  Mark: You know, here in California, where I am coastal Northern California we're in really kind of a Mediterranean climate cycle. And. I agree with you this year, that the things that I look forward to kind of signal the change into autumn are still not really happening. There's a particular kind of hard blue that the sky becomes because the angle of the light is different. And I know the angle of the light is still different, but I'm not seeing that blue. And it may be because of smoke in the air or something else, but could be, yeah, could be. Moisture as well. But I'm just, I'm not seeing the signals. People's gardens are still pouring out tons and tons of vegetables. And although the nights are coming sooner, it's still feels as though summer really has kind of got its talons in and it's holding on. Yucca: Yeah. So of course it's, it's going to be different everywhere, but that's interesting that that's happening and in both of our climates,  Mark: Right because they are so very different.  Yucca: they are Yeah. so it's always fun to see where we line up and where we're very different. Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Tom.  Mark: So let's talk about this holiday that has a controversial name and all that good kind of stuff. Yucca: Luckily it is one. We can just simply call the Equinox, right. So the in-between ones are a little bit trickier, but this one is easy. We can say it's the Equinox. And everybody knows what we're talking about. And of course mentioning that the two hemispheres are different. So for those of us in the Northern hemisphere, we're moving into the dark part of the year. And those in the Southern hemisphere are moving out of it Right. Going into their spring. Or of course, anyone in there. The tropical areas is having their wet and rainy, rainy, and dry cycle instead of the temperate four seasons. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah, so it's getting to be time to celebrate again. And before we started recording, we talked about whether to save this episode for next week with when this episode would be released on the Equinox. But it seems like it's a better idea to talk about the Equinox this week, so that if there are any ideas that you have for how to celebrate you can plan for those and, and be ready for it coming up next month. Yucca: It's kind of get  Mark: Monday. Yeah, Monday is the is the actual Equinox and that may not be true worldwide. I think it's Tuesday in Australia and Japan and the far east.  Yucca: To check what the actual time is,  Mark: yeah. Yucca: there abouts usually ranging from the 20th to 22nd. They're around in the month is usually when we have the, the Equinox.  Mark: Right. Right. So, when we talk about celebrating the the solstices and equinoxes and the points between on the wheel of the year we, we talk about what's actually happening, happening. Our natural environment. And we also talk about the metaphorical meanings that these holidays can have for us. So maybe we should start with the first one. Yucca: Do you want to cover that or should I  Mark: why don't you go ahead  Yucca: oh, Okay. Yeah. So  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: we have, we've inherited the, the view of the world or the frame of reference of the world with where we think of earth being. Circled by these other objects. Right. And it makes it a lot of sense. You go outside, you look at the sky and it looks like the sun rises and goes around the earth. It looks like the moon rises. It goes around that case. It does, but it looks like the stars. Right. And so a lot of hours. When we talk about solstices equinoxes, it's based on that former geocentric view. We now know though that we are on a planet, that's orbiting a star, not the star orbiting us. And so sometimes our language is still a little bit confusing about that, but what's happening is. Earth is going around the sun and it's going around the sun on a plane, which we called the ecliptic. And this is confusing because the path that the earth is taking is the ecliptic, but also the apparent path of the sun and the sky is the ecliptic as well. But then we have earth is tilting. It's not straight up and down in that plane. That's our 23 and a half degree tilt, which changes over very, very long time period. Not within the human time period or the individual lifetime. So for us, we can just think, Okay. it's to say that's not changing, but we have basically, you can think of the, the plane coming out from the equator, the equatorial plane, or the celestial equator. And. We have earth going around the sun and then we have that plane and twice a year, those two planes, there's a node where it appears to us that they're crossing over each other. These are both imaginary lines. They're not really there, but that's what the Equinox is, is when the planet is passing through that plane. Now what that ends up doing for the equator is on the equator. It seems like there's equal night and day length. That's not the case for the rest of the world, though. It's pretty close. The closer you are to the equator, but that's where Equinox equal night. That word actually comes in.  Mark: Right. And so as you get farther from the equator, The proportion of day and night shifts. And so you will have a slightly, somewhat longer day than night or a somewhat longer night than day, depending on whether you're in the north or in the south.  Yucca: And if you happen to be at the south pole station, then it's a you have your six months of day, six months of night.  Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, that's what's happening in the natural world. That's, that's, what's causing this apparent effect of having these roughly equal days and equal nights and metaphorically speaking, what that often inspires people to think of this holiday as being about, is about balance is about. The, you know, looking at our lives and understanding the need for, you know, the, the proper proportionality of the different things that we are doing in our lives, whether it's our relationship with ourself, our relationship with a partner or partners, our relationship with our family, our relationship with work, our relationship. Friends and with creative endeavors and so forth. I find this a really useful time to take a look at my life and say, well, okay. What am I not putting enough time into right now? That is That's working to my detriment. And because I am unemployed at the moment, the obvious answer this year is I'm not putting enough time into work. Although I'm putting a lot of time into trying to get work. But that said, I've also noticed some other patterns. You know, I, I want to invest a little more time in my relationship now than I have been. I think I've been neglecting that a little bit and so forth. So, that's an exercise that you can do for this time of the year. You know, really kind of try to get the 20,000 foot view of your life and see where's the energy going and ask yourself. Is that really what I want is that, does that feel balanced to me? Yucca: Yeah.  And so, because Equinox has happened twice a year. There's a really nice opportunity to return to that. It's just, it's not just once a year, but it's a Ooh, every half, half year, right. We have the, the fall or the autumn, and then also the spring time for looking at that balance. Although it's a good practice to do it anytime of the year, but it's nice to have a place on the calendar that reminds us to do that.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And another layer of metaphor that I use in thinking about the, the wheel of the year around the, the course of the calendar is mapping the human life span onto that calendar. So for example, well, the spring Equinox becomes a time to focus on the very young on. Toddlers and children that are maybe up to 10 or 11 years old. I'm not preteens that comes a little later or teenagers comes a little later. But yeah, pre-teens and young children time to celebrate them and really kind of do some activities that are really focused on them. This time of year I considered to be about the elders. The, the matriarchs and patriarchs and other arcs, I haven't heard a gender fluid term yet for, for what that would be. But if somebody does, please email us@thewonderpodcastqueuesatgmail.com and let us know, because I I'd like to be using the right terminology. Yucca: And it's just fun to learn new words like that, too.  Mark: Yeah, you  Yucca: we could. If there isn't a word, there should be.  Mark: Right? Right. So you know, those folks who have lived the, the great, the greatest proportion of their lives are coming towards the end of their life. And. One would hope they have learned something. They have gained wisdom in the course of passing through their lives because this is after all a harvest festival. This is a time when in, in the Northern hemisphere anyway. Gardens and so forth are pouring out. Tremendous agriculture is just producing tremendous amounts of food right now. And it's very traditional to have a kind of late September. Harvest feast of some kind celebrating the end of the harvest and there's and there are many ways and traditions of people doing that all over Europe, certainly. And I'm sure here in the Americas as well among indigenous people. So. It's a time to understand the harvest of your life in a way as well too, to celebrate those people who have lived long lives. And our experience who's experienced brings us a harvest of memories and lore and knowledge and wisdom and to celebrate them for that, that they bring to us. Yucca: Hm, that's really beautiful. I love hearing your take and perspective on the holidays and the wheel of fear  Mark: Thank you Jaco. So you have a a different way of, of mapping the wheel of the year. Yucca: We do. Yeah. So instead of mapping the lifetime of an, of an individual human, we look at the wheel of the year, more on a what's happening on an ecosystem scale. Right. So what are the different components of ecosystems? What are the different roles and also the whole biosphere. So not just an individual specific biome, but, but the whole thing. Right. And we then relate that a little bit to, Okay. What's going on in our own environment. So here, although it's running a little bit late this year, this is the time when the shift between. The warm and the cold part of the year is happening even though with the light and the length of days. Yeah. That happened at the solstice. But really it's not until now that that we're going to start leaving summer. And for us summer is the that's. When we have moisture, it's a very dry climate, but that's when the moisture comes. And so if one's to go out and take a walk and look around, that's when you might notice. There are in fact mushrooms that grow here, but they only come up when there is that moisture. They only come up when the temperature is shifting. So we have those cool evenings, the days aren't so blazing and what's happening is that the, the phase of decomposition. Is starting to really get going. That's always happening, but in the temperate regions and whether a year in an arid or a humid temperate region,  Mark: Hmm. Yucca: The decomposition really takes over during the cold part of the year, especially in the forests, in deciduous forests, underneath all of that litter of that organic matter. And underneath the snow and the ice that's when the fungus is working away, breaking down, the soil is alive. The soil is an incredible system and everything. Might look dormant and asleep, but underneath it's active and it's, you know, fun guy are like, some people say that they're all mouth, cause they really are. They're digesting on the outside, eating up, eating up. And it's not just the fun guy, but it's also many other organisms. The bacteria. Of course, not all bacteria, not all, all fungi are decomposers, but many of them are, and there are decomposers who partner with our microbes and fungi, like the termites and other insects that are animals, but really there's this whole other part to nature that we don't notice because they aren't happening on our scale. It's the normal scale. We're weird. We are abnormally giant compared to most life. And what that life is doing is it's breaking things down. It's taking it apart. It's eating and we think of it as death, Right, When something's decomposing, when it's rotting, we go, oh, it's dying and death and all of that, but it's actually feeding its life. It's both at the same time.  Mark: right. Yucca: So this is the time that we really are looking at compost. We're looking at the decomposition and seeing that happening in the natural world, but also thinking about how that can apply to our own life. So I think this connects in a little bit with what you're talking about with the balance, where we can look at our lives and go, what's serving me. What's not, what can I put in the compost? All Right. What is not working that needs to be, take that energy, take that focus and use it as feed to transform into something new. So that's, that's what this whole kind of autumn. Transitioning towards the cold. That's what it really feels like along with, of course. Wow. Look at all the food that's coming in, look at all of the bounty, but what happens to the scraps that zucchini Bush that you have, you're getting loads and loads of the zucchini is that you have no idea what to do with, and you're sick of zucchini, bread and Columbus cheetahs, or whatever else you're making of it. But that plan. Is eventually dying down. And what happens to that? The plant that bore those fruits, it's going to get eaten, consumed. It's going to become part of the soil and on and on that cycle goes,  Mark: Right, right. We would certainly notice it if it didn't because we would be buried in leaves. The, when you consider the sheer volume of, of vegetable detritus, that's consumed by the decomposers every year. It, it allows us to live really because.  Yucca: vegetable, but animal as well, the flesh and Yeah,  Mark: Absolutely. And you know, we consider it kind of normal while you go to a forest and it's got a few leaves on the ground and you walk around and you enjoy it. And then when you go there the next year, Has a similar amount of leaves around there, on the ground? Well, if it wasn't for the decomposers, there might be six feet of leaf accumulated there and you wouldn't be going anywhere in the forest. Yucca: Yeah. Well, we had a really interesting period during earth history where plants figured out this strategy called trees and they started making these compounds, which were much more difficult to break down. And the decomposers at the time. Hadn't figured it out yet. So breaking down those ligaments and things like that, and it took fun guy a while. They've they? They got it eventually, but we have this big period of time where we had this buildup of lots and lots and lots of Woody material, which eventually what caused huge fires. But a lot of it ended up getting buried and that's where our coal today come.  Mark: Hmm. And that's why coal is full of fossils. It's full of leaf fossils and insect fossils, and all kinds of, you know, imprinted remnants from all of that detritus that was then compressed and fossilized into the call that we have today. Yucca: Yeah. So just unimaginable amounts of. Vegetable matter. Right, Just huge. So we call that the Carboniferous because there's so much carbon during that time period. Yeah.  Mark: right. The, when, when you were talking about thinking about your life and what needs, what needs composting? You know, what. What harvest can we take from what we've been doing? And then what do we kind of give up on and fold back into the earth and hope will bring up something else. That's very much like my approach to to the harvest season as well, because, you know, we make plans early in the year. We start new initiatives, at least I do kind of. Annual schedule where during the deep of winter, it's, it's less, it's less a doing time and more of a kind of planning and getting ready to do time. But by the time the Equinox, the autumnal Equinox rolls around. I know pretty well whether a project has succeeded or not. And in some cases, you know, you plant stuff and it just doesn't. It's the nature of cultivating a garden. There, there are things that just fail. They either don't thrive in the conditions that you've given them or the seeds were defunked or something. Yucca: Or you realize that that's not what you want growing there. Mark: Right,  Yucca: Right, And you know, that's, that's great. Mint is delicious, but maybe you don't want it right. there where it's going to take over everything.  Mark: Right. Yucca: Okay. Maybe it's time to pull that up and put it and put it in a pot or just say, sorry, man.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Maybe a different garden, maybe a different time. But right now this isn't, this isn't what I want to be working on.  Mark: Right. So that's a, that's a place where our approaches kind of overlap in terms of the decomposers. Because I do think about, you know, With the metaphorical harvest of the year, what is it that needs to go onto the compost pile?  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: What is it that didn't work out or that maybe did work out and turned out? Not to be what I wanted. All those kinds of things. So that's, that's another, another exercise that you can do at around this time of year, as you're looking at your life and thinking about, you know, how's the energy balance working there in terms of the energy that you invest in different activities, you can also be thinking about, you know, what what am I. What am I pouring any energy into that is not thriving. And maybe I need to pull the plug or maybe I need to put in even more energy, but you gotta sort of figure it out. If it's not working now, Yucca: Yeah. And, and one thing that you could do is actually physically compost. While making those decisions and there's, you know, there's a million, one different ways to compost that are going to be appropriate in different situations. If you're in a, an apartment you might think of like a little worm bin underneath the kitchen sink, or if you've got more space, you might do a traditional pile in the backyard. Or if you've got lots and lots of land, of course, there's always the trench and trench and, and. Let the existing soil, microbes and worms And all of those get at it. But, but it's the sort of thing that you could be physically doing and having that, that metaphoric meaning as you're doing it. Mark: And then the last thing that I think of when I think of. Holiday is just the straight-up harvest feast.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: It's a thing that I really liked to do with friends at this time of year. And of course COVID has pulled the plug on all of that recently, although we did, we did have a gathering at our house of a small group of people yesterday, which felt like an early harvest celebration. They were the people who helped us to move. You know, loaning us trucks and helping us pack and helping us move stuff over and all that kind of stuff. And everybody was vaccinated. So we, you know, it was, it was reasonably safe and it just reminded me of how much I really enjoy being around other people and sharing their company and having conversations and all that good kind of stuff. If you're in a place where you. No of people who are your friends and loved ones who are vaccinated  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and, you know, can gather a small group for a harvest feast. It might be really good for your, for yourself at this point, because we've been so isolated for so long. If, if that's something that works for you and you feel comfortable with doing it you know, even, even just a group of like six people for a dinner party can be awfully nice. And it'll give you a chance to get rid of some of that zucchini. Yucca: Yes. And depending on what your climate and what the weather is like this year for you, this can be a really lovely time to still be outside. Right. So have that back porch or park gathering, or, you know, let's go to the national forest or something like that. And, you know, it's still a time that you could do a, kind of a, more of a picnic feel. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: but you know, the, the idea. Of sitting around a table in the backyard, or even a campfire or with friends and a good cider or, you know, just that, that nice atmosphere is, that's one of my favorite things about autumn. I just, that all that kind of cozy,  Mark: right. Yeah. And it's it's, I mean, we know that at least, you know, where we are, we know that the elements are going to get more. In hospitable soon. Right. But there is this sort of last hurrah that happens in September into early October sometimes where you can, you can just really enjoy being outside and Celebrating with, with friends. So I, I really commend that to you. If you can. I know we've been protecting ourselves, protecting our health for so long that people have kind of developed this kind of knee jerk, get away from me, impulse because of COVID. But if you know people who are vaccinated and you know that they're safe, then that can be a great thing to do. Yucca: Yeah. And, you know, I don't know how it is for you, but there's also something about this time of year, which has that kind of excitement and anticipation for being done with the summer, done with the heat done with that part of the year and ready for the like, Ooh, I'm ready for the chill chilly. I'm ready for the sweaters. I'm ready for the, you know, whatever it is. The Halloween. Yes. Halloween. please. The pumpkin's  Mark: The month long Sabbath. Yucca: Yes. Yeah. this, the pumpkins and the cloves and cinnamon and all of that. Just, yeah, we're getting there Mark: Yeah. Yucca: It's going to, Ooh.  Mark: There's another thing that I used to do. And I'm, I'm thinking about doing it again this year, which is that I would brew a , which is a spice to Meade around this time of year, so that it would be ready in bottles to give us gifts that you'll.  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: And I think, you know, we can probably put this recipe in the. Yucca: Yeah, we could  Mark: In the notes. Yeah. In the show notes, it's really, it's not very difficult. The most important thing to recognize about it is first of all, sanitize everything, because that's how you, you know, you don't get weird bacterial infections in your in your liquid and you must use champagne bottles. This, this is sparkling need. It is high pressure. The bottles will explode if they're not champagne bottles and it'll make a big sticky mess and it can hurt people if they're around when the bottle goes up.  Yucca: I can,  Mark: please use champagne bottles. Yucca: I'm laughing right now because do you know what a Winogradsky column is?  Mark: No. Yucca: So, really beautiful, but if you live anywhere near a salt marsh or something like that, there are these bacteria. A lot of them are actually Kia that, that live in these different kinds of mud and all kinds of. Environments. That would be very difficult for us as large aerobic creatures, but you can get the mud and put them into jars and they, and, you know, maybe give them some hard-boiled eggs or some, you know, their sulfur eaters and that sort of thing. So, over time, these, these columns or these jars develop these unbelievably beautiful colors because you're looking at. These colonies of microbes? Well, I have several of those and we also moved recently and someone helping us move, tightened the lids onto some of my  Mark: Oh, no. Yucca: And luckily it, this only happened to one of them, but. They are of course releasing carbon dioxide. And when you have that inside of a glass bottle and we heard from the other room and. Mud and sticky bacterial colonies all over the walls and the, you know, and it was just like, oh, good thing. Nobody was there because that was shards of glass. And that's the same thing which is going to happen with with your, when you're brewing. Right.  Mark: right, right. Yeah. I had a direct experience of this once. I used to do two batches of Mead every year. I would do this spice champagne. that we're going to provide the recipe for. And then I did a straight, dry Mead that would come out around Mayday or bell team. And I was at a belting celebration weekend and I brought this need out to donate that I had put it in 22 ounce beer bottles because it was supposed to be a dry need. It apparently got a little fuzzy. Apparently there was enough sugar to do a secondary fermentation in the bottle. And one woman grabbed a bottle of this and started to run up a hill with it, to her campsite. And it exploded in her hand.  Yucca: Oh, wow. Was she okay?  Mark: She got some cuts, but nothing very serious, but it was really a reminder to me that you just don't want to take a chance with this. Even, even if what you're doing is supposedly going to turn out still, rather than sparkling, it's just so much safer to use champagne bottles. Yucca: Okay. Now I should say we're, we're talking about. The dangerous part of it. But for people who are interested in getting started, the means insiders are. really great places to start. They're much. They're very simple in comparison to beer, right? You really, a lot of times it's well clean all your equipment and put your ingredients, but the Easton, you know, you've got your special lid on it and that's and wait. Right.  Mark: Yeah, pretty much. So, I mean, and the equipment that you need is not all that much. This, as I said, is a spice needs, so it has, you know, orange zest and ginger slices and cloves and cinnamon sticks and things like that. And it  Yucca: give us the recipe, but do you put those in later on or do you  Mark: No, I start,  Yucca: with them? Okay.  Mark: well at first I do a yeast starter just to, you know, get the yeast population up so that when I pitch it's it's really raring to go. But other than that, what I do is I simmer all of those ingredients with a little bit of honey in the bottom of a big. Like a four gallon or three gallon kettle. And then I taught that all with the remainder of the honey and water, and then stir that all up and then rack it over into a five gallon carboy and top it off with water so that it comes up to five gallons. So this is this is a a recipe for five gallons of need. Which is enough to keep you for awhile. Yucca: That's a lot. Yeah.  Mark: it is it's enough to, you know, give away his presence and have some for yourself. And it's, it's, it's  Yucca: It depends on how many adults are in your household, right? Yeah. But That's still five gallons is a lot. Mark: That's a lot. It is. It's a lot. And for those of you who don't know, for some reason, meat is just honey wine. It's wine that's made where the fermenting sugar is from honey, instead of. Typically grapes in the case of most wine. And it's good. It's very good. And it, at least if it's made well, it's good.  Yucca: It's, it's one of those that I've found that most of the inexpensive stuff at the stores is not very cheap. Cheap meat is not.  Mark: really  Yucca: find cheap beers that are good. You can find cheap ciders, but cheat, Mead tip meat is like cough, syrupy  Mark: Yeah, it's the, the problem is that both the yeasts and the honey are somewhat more expensive if you want to get good quality stuff. And so if the meat is cheap, that means they went cheap with the ingredients. And so it doesn't taste very good. Yucca: Yeah, but there are some really, you know, it's, it's worth spending just a little bit more to get the better meat when you are buying it. And then of course, when you're making it yourself, it's, it's one of the much easier ones to make.  Mark: Yes. And it's, you know, it's a wonderful sort of out chemical process. It's, you know, it's life bubbling away in there making the, the alcohol and the CO2 and it's. It's a science project as much as anything else. And and then you have this product at the end of it. It's actually nice to drink. Yucca: And if you're going for that witchy aesthetic, It fits in real nice there. Mark: It does it absolutely does. You've  Yucca: got your, own BS even better, right. You get your BS and make it with your own. yeah,  Mark: yeah, yeah. That, that, that would be really exciting. I've I've never kept bees, but I have friends who have in there. I, in fact, I, I have a friend who used to keep bees. He doesn't anymore, and we did exchanges. You know, he, he would give me the bees, the honey that I needed to do a batch of meat. And then I'd give him half of the need that I made. So pretty.  Yucca: like a great deal.  Mark: Pretty good deal all the way around. Yeah. So anyway, today's tangent is about is about Mead making and brewing. And if you're, if you're interested in getting into that and you haven't been doing it so far this, this is a, an easy recipe that is really delicious. So it's, it's well worth giving it a shot. And the good news is that once you have the equipment to do it, then that's, that's the expense. Right? Other than the honey, that's really the expense. Yucca: Okay. And that, and for the most part, you can use all of that for your site or two, so yeah.  Mark: Yep. Yeah. Basically anything with romantic sugar, you can make wine that way too. It's just that wine. I mean, modern wine generally tends to be blends of several different vintages that are all kind of made to balance together and adjusted for flavor. And so.  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: I've never gotten into winemaking cause I live in the wine country and I can get a really good bottle of wine for 10 bucks. So it never struck me as making much sense to try to get 30 years of experience so that I could get as good as the guy that made the wine that costs 10 bucks. Yucca: Oh, you did mention, did we, did we talk about this while recording that that's another association that you have for this time of year?  Mark: I did mention that briefly, but yes. This is the time of the grape harvest in my area, which is called the crush. And when you drive the rural roads in the Western part of the county, everything smells like. Fermenting grape juice. It just everywhere you go, it just smells, it fermented grape juice. And there are giant trucks on the roads that are overflowing with bunches of grapes. It's really a pretty dramatic thing. It's a huge industry here. Yucca: How has the harvest deer to Sierra heard? It was a little bit of a rough year.  Mark: Yeah, because of the lack of rain. I know that there are actually a number of vineyards that have been taken out of production because. I mean, ordinarily what, the good thing about a vineyard, there are a lot of bad things about vineyards in terms of diversity and stuff. But the good thing about a vineyard is that once it's established, you generally don't have to water it. You can dry farm.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: In our, in our local environment, there's enough ambient moisture in the air and enough moisture in the soil that the grapevines will persist, but they have to be established for a couple of years with irrigation first. And we're in the middle of a drought now. So I know that there are some vineyards that have been abandoned and aren't because they, they won't be able to survive without irrigation. And there's no water. Yucca: Yeah, you have to have water to put out. So.  Mark: The, the other factor though, is that the very best wine grapes are highly concentrated in flavor because they grow on hillsides. And so they have access to less water. So it may very well be that some of the flat land grapes are similarly high in quality this year, because with less water, they've grown berries that are smaller, but much more concentrated. Yucca: And it works that way with the with Chili's too.  Mark: Does it? Yucca: Yeah. So there, there's all, there's a whole art to when you withhold water and when you give water to get the, to really get that wonderful spice and the flavor and all of that.  Mark: Hmm. Yucca: But unfortunately chilies are annuals, whereas grapes are perennials. And so when you're mono cropping, annuals you're destroying the soil  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: single year. Whereas your grapes mono crops of any kind is a, is a big problem, but less so than that happened to till every year.  Mark: Right. And we do have more and more people here who are trying to do integrated agriculture, where they'll grow other kinds of crops in the rows between the, the rows of grapes or you know, minimal pesticide use that kind of stuff that are trying to be more in balance with the natural world. Yucca: Yeah, it seems like there'd be a lot of opportunity for that with a vineyard.  Mark: Yeah, there is. It's just that there's a lot of expense involved and some of the things that you really need to do in order to be friendly to your local environment, welcome the birds to come and eat all your grapes. Yucca: Yes. Well, and sometimes your trouble with, if you're growing things between then you're harvesting becomes challenging and yeah. So it's, you know, it's, it's great in principle and I think we need to work there. You know, it's things haven't shifted for a reason. There's there are challenges that we have to work through to be able to make those shifts.  Mark: Yes. Yes. So that was your second tangent an exploration of the environmental impacts and opportunities for improvement of the wine industry.  Yucca: Yes.  Mark: And with that, I think we probably want to go into our final piece of discussion for you, which is that the atheopagan community is holding an in-person event. Next year. We've mentioned this before. It's called the century retreat and it's going to be from May 13th through 16th. Of 2022 in Colorado Springs, Colorado at a retreat center.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: And we are trying to get a handle on how many people are coming. So we're going to put a link in the notes. In the episode notes where you can go and you can register. If you're, if you're planning on going you, what you do is the, the event itself for the three days cost $215, and then you select your lodging choice. And that's an additional amount, which can be anything from 15 bucks. If you're camping too, if you want a private room in a cabin, it can be quite a bit more than that. Yucca: Or not if you're local, Right. If you're in the area, Mark: If you're local then. Yeah,  Yucca: It's great. Yeah.  Mark: It's going to be a wonderful event with workshops and rituals and socializing and just all kinds of great stuff and Yucca and I are both going to be there  Yucca: Who knows. Maybe we'll record an episode there.  Mark: we might very well. W yeah,  Yucca: In person.  Mark: wouldn't that be amazing? Yucca: Yeah. At the same table.  Mark: So. You know, if you, if you really want to hang out with some, you know, non-ferrous pagans and do some non theist pagan stuff really consider coming and joining us, we would love to have you be a part of that event. And as I said, we'll put a link to the the registration page with all the information in the episode notes. So we hope we'll see you there. Yucca: And it, it feels like a long time away, but it's really not. So, and that's why we're trying to get that handle on the numbers and see how many people are coming, because it's going to be here before we know it. Mark: that's right. That's right. Well, happy Equinox, Yucca. Yucca: Likewise, mark. And thank you for another wonderful discussion. So I can't believe we've we're already, already at the Equinox yet. Another one.  Mark: yeah. In fact that makes, that means we've been going here for more than a year and a half yeah. Something like six weeks, more than a year and a half. So it's kind of amazing.  Yucca: it is.  Mark: Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much and we'll see you next week.  Yucca: All right.

MauLr on Radio Tracklist #577 Mixed by DJ MauLr Don Diablo & AR CO - Hot Air Balloon Alan Walker · Georgia Ku - Don't You Hold Me Down Audien & Cate Downey - Wish It Was You Loud Luxury - Holiday Hills Voster & Gallardo feat. OMZ - No More Sadness Doja Cat x The Weeknd - You Right (Jyye Remix) Dastic - Perfect Lullaby Small ToK - Club 9 Yves Larock x Steff Da Campo feat. Jaba - Rise Up 2021 GRYM - You and I (Mark's Special) BYOR & VINNE - Downtown KAAZE - Legend Of Zelda Sunlike Brothers & MAD SNAX - Wind Me Up Wildhearts & Charles Sebastian - No More MATTN & Maurice West - Funky Town NWYR - Year Of The Dragon Armin van Buuren & Timmy Trumpet - Anita

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E24 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark.  And today we're going to talk about relationships, big topic, lots to say about it. We expect this will only be kind of a first. Crack at what could be ongoing conversations on this subject, but particularly because relationships in the pagan community can be significantly different than mainstream kind of over culture driven relationships. We wanted to talk about that and what the differences are and some of the things to watch for. Yucca: Right. And also since we do enjoy talking about seasonal topics for many people, we're going into what's sometimes called wedding season. And this year there are a lot more than there were last year. There's people are still kind of holding off, but you might be going to a wedding or you might be having one yourself or.  Mark: You might be officiating at one. Yucca: exactly. Right. So not only for that seasonal reason, but also because this is such a human thing, relationships, whether it's a marriage or a partnership or a, I don't know what you would call a, a relationship with, not a partnership, but a  Mark: Well, because social  Yucca: social. Yeah.  Mark: you know, it's a sort of a social circle of friends, right. You know, we're, we are social animals. We evolved in packs and we rely heavily on the fact of the existence of other fellow people around us. And of course there are exceptions people who. You know, who are antisocial and don't really want to be very connected with other people. Humans are very diverse, but as a species, we did evolve that way. And so. And we're the way that we're built. When we reproduce, we have what is essentially a larval human, which is completely incapable of taking care of itself. And that requires ongoing relationships in order to support that child until they can care for themselves. And that requires many years of those relationships being attacked. Yucca: Yeah. So, so when we talk about relationships, We have many different levels, right? We can be talking about our romantic sexual relationships, but we also have the relationship between parents and children, friends, extended family work, all of those things. And the word relationship encompasses all of that.  Mark: Yeah, we have lousy terminology in English. I think I've talked about this before. We've got this one word love, which is supposed to encompass the emotional experience of all these different kinds of relationships. And then we have one word relationship, which is used to fill in the, the explained connection between people who are friends, people who are coworkers, people who are family, people who are lovers, people who are. Siblings, it just goes on. Yucca: so let's get into that. And let's also talk a little bit about. Why we wanted to talk about this topic, because this is a podcast about non theist paganism, specifically science-based non theist paganism. And sometimes it might seem like our topics are a little far off from that, but they're not right. This is all really connected. So, so let's get into that a little bit. Why this is so important.  Mark: Sure. Well, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, one of the things that I think about a lot, when I think about relationships with. Within the pagan sphere, is that fine? No, mentally we are a different kind of religious tradition and then the Abrahamic, right. Religions that drive the over culture, Christianity, Judaism, Islam. Those are authoritarian religions. They're hierarchical in nature with God at the top of the pyramid and they are filled with. Inherited rules revealed dogma doctrine, which is told to you for how you're supposed to behave. And that includes in your relationships. There's all kinds of stuff about, you know, first of all, there's very, very kind of siloed gender roles. So there's men and there's women and that's it. And then. There's a set of rules for how men are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to do, and a set of rules for how women are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to do, which is usually worse. And all of that is sort of handed to you and built into the assumptions that you have as you develop relationships with people at any level. Paganism is fundamentally different than that because it's not an authoritarian framework. It's a framework that's built around agency and empowerment. So relationships can become partnerships of discovery and evolution over time, and they have the opportunity to be negotiated in any terms. You know, the, the insulin. In a given relationship. Dad wants to be the caregiver and the, the, you know, house husband and do that and, well, great. No problem. It doesn't give anybody the willies the way that it does in, you know, some corners of, of the overall culture. The The things that people can choose to do can be much better adapted to who they are as individuals, rather than dictated to them because they are expected to behave a certain way. Yucca: Yes. Yep. And, and as always, this comes up in a lot of topics. When we talk about the over culture and pig and approaches, we are still steeped in the overall culture. And it's in so many ways that it's usually completely unconscious. And even though we may be coming from a different perspective, sometimes. We don't even realize what we're, what expectations we're bringing with us from society about gender roles or relationships, or, you know, what, what the, the expectations within a relationship, what those expectations even are and right. So, so think about. What constitutes cheating. So thinking about a romantic relationship, what's cheating and what's not cheating. Well, there's an answer on a societal level of what's cheating and what's not, but if your rules are slightly different than the expected rules, then it may or may not be, but that might not even be a framework that exists within your relationship. Mark: right. Exactly. So, because by definition, cheating means to break the rules, but if you invent your own rules, That are different than the over cultures rules. Then you can do things which the over culture might consider cheating. You don't because that's the agreement that you have with your partner. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That's, that's the big difference. And so, for example, in pagan circles, we see a lot of polyamory. A lot of people who are having either open relationships or relationships with more than one partner and that means forming family units. You know, raising children together, the whole nine yards which on the face of it has a lot to be said for it in terms of attention to children and just the sheer available number of hands to do the work of a household, earning potential, lot of things like that. But the over culture will tell you that that's wrong. It can't tell you why it's wrong. It just tells you that it's wrong because it's sinful. It violates that that revealed dogma, that doctrine that was handed down and now suffuses our culture. Yucca: Yeah. So I think it's, it's really interesting to look at where we have those discomforts. Right. Like if you were listening to this and you had that discomfort of oh, oh multiple right. And examining where's that from is that leftover from the one man and one woman and they have to look the part and all of that, or, you know, perhaps there's somewhere else, perhaps you had a negative experience in your, or something like that, but, but often it comes from that from the Abrahamic religions. Being government.  Mark: Yes. And it's, it's challenging to conduct a relationship based on negotiated agreement. many ways, it's much easier to sort of lie back and kind of go with the model that everybody else is doing or nearly everybody else is doing. And the reality of course, is that as with all so-called normals, People are doing all kinds of stuff that isn't particularly normal, but they aren't admitting it. And they, and they are still, you know, keeping themselves looking respectable for their fellow  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yes. Whoever's observers.  Yucca: Facebook friends and mother-in-laws and all of them.  Mark: exactly. So, but when you're in a situation where you don't subscribe to that, Revealed handed down doctrine instead where you say, well, okay, you know, I wanna, I want to connect with you and now let's talk about how that's gonna work and everything can be on the table. Now, some people run screaming from the prospect of that. I find it to be very engaging, interesting, and much more Much more acknowledging of me as a person in the relationship, because it says, okay, I'm willing to look at you. You yourself, you're a real person hood. Rather than I'm going to look at you as an example of this role model, and I'm going to relate to the role model. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. So it, it takes more vulnerability. It takes that communication, that the true communication. It's vulnerable because you have to, you have to be looking at the actual person and looking at your ex at you too, not just looking at the role, looking at your partner or the other person as whatever role they're supposed to be filling, but looking at yourself, not just the role you're supposed to be filling and supposed tos with these big quotes around them. Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yeah. And so it. Sometimes it can be painful to be, to really look at, have that presence and self-reflection to be able to really come to the table with that authenticity in that honesty and what you need, what you want and the difference between those and.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Where you messed up. Right. Being able to go, Okay. Yeah, I messed up, Mark: Okay. Yucca: right?  Mark: we, we agreed on this and I didn't do it. And whoops.  Yucca: Yeah. Or I, I put a little knife in the end of that statement and I really I'm sorry that wasn't okay. On my part.  Mark: yeah. Yeah. So, So we're, we're talking, w what we're really talking about now is kind of the, the beginning part of a relationship, which, and it evolves over time because you can renegotiate agreements, but what tends to happen when people first become connected with one another in, in some way, there are all these implicit agreements that they make about how they're going to engage with one another. And some of that has to do with sort of. Category of relationship. You're we're lumping the person into, right. It's like my friend, Gary is a dear dear friend of mine. I'm not having sex with him. I'm having beer with him. And we get together on about a monthly basis and enjoy one another's company and talk about things that matter to us in the world. And that is kind of our understanding of what we're going to do, you know, together with one another. It can be. Very helpful and healthy early on in a relationship, especially a deeper, more intimate relationship to really explicitly have that conversation about what the agreements are. In fact, you can even write them down. It can be very helpful to say, okay, we agreed that we're going to relate to one another this way. And of course, then you're kind of accountable. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: and it may be helpful to have that over several conversations. Right to, to not be putting yourself on the spot and let yourself feel through some of those things, because you might be talking about, okay, well in a romantic relationship, how okay you are with, you know, how open in terms of being able to see other people or not, or, you know, feel through what that really is for you, because what's happening in a conversation. In the moment, there's all the social contracts and the, you know, agreeing with the other person and not upsetting them or those sorts of things that when you step aside and really feel through it, it might feel different than what it did at that moment. And making sure that you have a way to come back to that and go, okay, so this is what we talked about and you know, I've been really reflecting on it and these have, this is what's come up.  Mark: this is.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And I think that it cuts both ways. I think that on the one hand, it's important to step back and reflect on your own so that you understand what your, your true feelings are about, what has been suggested or proposed or asked for by a person who you're connected with. And, but the flip side of that is that sometimes, you know, you hear something and just go. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And then have this terrible reaction and the reaction can be loud and explosive and inconsiderate. And and I, and I don't mean you podcast person listener that I'm talking to, or even myself necessarily. But a person, you know, sometimes when, when people feel very threat. They will, they will swell up and bark as that's what primates do when they feel threatened. They, they make themselves large and they bark and Part of the trick of maintaining an ongoing relationship is the ability to come back to that table and have a calm conversation afterwards about the thing that's really scary. And some people are more able to do that than others. But it's a really valuable skill to cultivate the ability to disconnect behaviourally from. A strong emotion that you're feeling.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and you can say, you know, I'm feeling really scared and really angry right now, but I'm going to talk in a calm tone of voice. And I, I, I want to know more about this and I want to know what you're asking for. Okay. Yucca: I think it's, it's really valuable. You mentioned that it's a skill to cultivate  Mark: Hm. Yucca: this. Isn't something that. For born with this is this is practiced. It's, it's something that, that we stumble with and that we can get better over time. But just because it's hard now, doesn't mean that it's always going to be that way. Right.  Mark: Right. Right. And. You may find is that it gets easier with time because the outcomes end up not being the scary picture that your mind has presented to you when, when it was scared, the outcome turns out to be something that's more benign. It's, it's something that you can either embrace or at least you can live with. And that's just what, when you have those experiences a few times, it makes you less likely to go into that panic because you're not, your experience has been that when that triggered, since happens to you, It doesn't necessarily result in the disaster, the catastrophe that you've you've imagined it might. Yucca: Okay.  Mark: So a lot of what we're talking about here is we've been talking about agreements and one kind of agreement that people make implicitly or explicitly is about boundaries. Boundaries are really important in relationships because when we violate them, people feel violated. They, they feel that they've been treated badly in some way, and that can be. I mean, it can, it can be small things. It doesn't have to be big things. It can be small things. But if someone finds, you know, a turn of phrase, a tone of voice, something to be threatening or off putting to them, then they're going to feel like, Hey, you know, you crossed a line that I didn't want you to cross. Yucca: Yeah, well, and, and remembering that what is small to one person. Can be huge to another and vice versa that we are all different with very different experiences. And so our boundaries are going to be different as well. There may be some that are fairly universal, you know, don't hit. me with a car guessing that that's pretty universal  Mark: Don't hit me with anything  Yucca: No hit me with anything. Yeah. And then even then let's, let's have some very specific understandings around that.  Mark: Yes. Yes. Yucca: But yeah. So, so, but, but beyond something like that, there can be things like you were, you're saying the tone of voice or the type of language used the, you know, is it okay to follow someone? If they leave the room during an argument, things like that can be really, really key to work out because if we aren't emotionally and physically safe and our bodies don't really know the difference between those two things,  Mark: That's Right.  Yucca: we respond the same way. It's. I mean, it comes back to, what's the point of the relationship for you? If the point of the relationship is to be mutually nurturing? Well, that's not going to be a nurturing situation for any party involved, Right,  Mark: right. And once again, when we talk about boundaries, there's this whole template that gets provided to us by the over culture. And Yeah. Some of it is really pretty toxic. Like the idea that an angry man doesn't have to follow any boundaries that the fact that he's angry gives him justification and authority to do whatever strikes his fancy is as an action. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That is, that is a subliminal rule in our existing culture. And it leads to a lot of violence, particularly against women also against children. And it's, it's a problem.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So those inherited templates around, you know, how to be, you know, for women, you know, do you just swallow it all in and not say anything about how you're unhappy because you're afraid of,  Yucca: Or internalize it as your fault.  Mark: yes, yes. Very much.  Yucca: shouldn't have made a mad.  Mark: Right. Yeah. And that's, that's a whole other episode right there of, you know, just the, the terrible mind games that people can get into with themselves to rationalize abusive behavior towards the in the context of a relationship where you are freely negotiating your boundaries, there are opportunities. There are great opportunities to get your needs met. I mean, one of mine is I don't like to be yelled at, I do not want to be talked with in a really, you know, sharp, critical tone. And I just don't. It shuts me down. I don't want to listen to it. And this is a challenge between myself and Amanda, my partner, because her impulse is to yell when she feels upset about something. So, having a, a conversation about, you know, how, what kind of communication style are we going to agree on? That's going to make everybody's needs. Is a really powerful thing. And in the context of a pagan framework where it's about agency and self-empowerment rather than following the rules, we can develop agreements for ourselves around what those boundaries are and how we're going to treat one another. Yucca: Yeah. And again, it's going to look different for every, group.  Mark: Right, right. It is. It's going to look very different. And of course, one of the things that, that, that does, as we said, you know, you can put everything out on the table. And discuss what we're agreeing to, what we, you know, what we reserve to ourselves as individuals, what we see as a part of the relationship, what we you know, how we're going to support one another in, in having that relationship. And, but some of those things can be very scary for people. You know, the idea of sexual openness in relationships is terrifying to a lot of people because they're convinced that it means that they're going to lose the person that they love.  Yucca: Or that it's a reflection upon their value or worth,  Mark: yes. Yucca: Right, That, oh, somehow if my partner is looking at or attracted to, or has feelings for someone else that that somehow means that I'm not enough. And that's something that we really get taught from, from a tiny age.  Mark: Yes. Yes. The whole idea of the one, the soulmate is a terribly toxic toxic idea. For one thing, there are a lot of people out there that can be compatible with anybody else in there. There is nobody on earth for whom there aren't multiple possible compatible partners.  Yucca: And if there were, if there really was only one, that's quite depressing. Because your chances of inner of there's a lot of humans, your chances of encountering that one. I mean, they're what 8 billion, I  Mark: Yes, exactly. You know, here, here I am looking for the one and unfortunately she was born in Thailand and I will need her. That's the end of the story. So that whole thing, that whole. And, you know, mostly what people mean when they talk about a soulmate is somebody that they really feel that deep resonance with a deep connection of shared commonalities as well as real appreciation for the beauty of the person, for who they are. And that's a wonderful thing, but the idea that that person therefore has to be all of the things that we want in our lives. Pernicious. I mean, if you have someone who, as a partner is everything you want in your life. Good for you. Great. Terrific. But if not then in a pagan framework, it's possible to have a conversation and say, well, these are needs that I have, that aren't getting met. And I'd like to talk about how I can get them in. Yucca: Yeah. I think it's an awful lot of pressure to put on one person,  Mark: It is,  Yucca: right?  Mark: it's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on one person and people break under it. And what you w w but you end up with is a lot of divorce, which is what we have a lot of divorce. Yucca: Yeah. Or just unhappiness  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: And  Mark: a lot of people who are unhappy. Yucca: And an acceptance of that, that well, that's just the way it is, right? Well, of course you're, you know, that's just what marriage is. That's just what a partnership is. Or, you know, those sorts of things.  Mark: oh, in that whole awful genre of jokes about wives and husbands and you know, those sort of, you know, denigrating, you know, the old ball and chain kind of, They're just terrible. And it starts from the very beginning in the, in the over culture. I mean like the whole idea of stag parties, you know, is the idea is okay, you get to be sexy with, with other people for the last time before we close the gate on you forever. It's, it's silly and it's kind of gross and desperate and really unconscious.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And what I, I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it, but the fact that bachelorette parties are becoming more and more like that I think is on the one hand, a good thing in that women are being able to own their sexuality more, but on another it's like, but it's a crappy model. Why would you know, why would you want to emulate men? Men are some of the most unhappy. You know, be knighted creatures in our, in our culture. They're only allowed to experience one emotion, which is anger and  Yucca: But even then Only sort of,  Mark: right. Only sort Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. Not really. It only in very certain circumstances. Yeah.  Mark: So, you know, the, the turning, turning, the available roles of women into the available roles of men is not necessarily a step forward. In my opinion, in all cases certainly the entrance of women into the workplace and into professional spheres and, you know, all that kind of stuff is really a tremendous step forward. Feminism ultimately was about choice. It's always been about choice. It's about women's abilities to make decisions for themselves about how they want to live their lives. And  Yucca: right.  Mark: well, yes,  Yucca: just right, because if it isn't everyone. then it's going to be no one  Mark: Right? Yucca: fundamentally. Right, And, and it's, and it. off on a tangent again, but it's one of the areas where I think that there's some times some missed understanding that people have that it's not just, we call it feminism because that's where the big problem was and how women and femininity and females and all of that is related to, but it's not the only challenge in society. right.  Mark: No, Yucca: You know, it's not, it's not, it's not saying that that's the only thing that matters and men don't matter and males don't matter. And all of that, like, no, no, no, no, no, No, no, this is less, but we've got a problem here. Let's take a look at this problem. And if it upsets you, that people are talking about the importance of women that's might not. be part of the problem.  Mark: Yes, you might want to, you might want to take a look at that, Yucca: yeah. Why is, why is that, So why is that? So triggering.  Mark: right?  Yucca: And, you know, we can tie that to, to stuff happening today with, you know, racial tensions and things like that. It's, you know, it's the same idea.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: But, but it sounds like you were talking about the, the roles that many of the roles that we have are very limited and toxic  Mark: Yes. Yucca: that it's on the one hand it's, it's a positive thing. That more people are able to be in different roles, but that maybe we also need to start breaking down some of the toxic roles that, and opening up  Mark: That's. Yucca: for people to be what they want without it being poisonous.  Mark: Right. That's really what I mean. And that ranges everything from being a sexual and a romantic all the way, you know, to being hyper-sexualized and, you know, highly, you know, I don't like this word because it's got a, you know, it's got a negative connotation to it, but highly promiscuous or, you know, relating with other people. Yucca: Can be highly engaged,  Mark: yes.  Yucca: might be.  Mark: Hi, highly having a highly diversified portfolio of, of, of humans.  Yucca: Oh, yes.  Mark: So, and, and once again, it comes back to agency and choice, and I really do think that this is the profound difference in terms of understanding human relating between the over culture and the pagan framework. At least as I've seen it practiced in the United and states Yucca: Well, cause we're doing it in other places too. So I think it's easier for us to. To look at everything that way, right. We're already kind of going against the grain when it comes to what our thoughts about nature and what are thoughts about divinity and all of these things.  Mark: right, right. Yeah. And. It seems pretty clear that the rise of the Neo pagan movement in the United States, because it was rooted, it was definitely bound in with the sixties counterculture. It was a movement of people who were going against that grain of people who were rejecting institutional doctrine, who were questioning Sort of Axiom of how the culture looks at the world. Certainly, you know, pulling up the floorboards and looking at all the bigotry that underpinned everything. So the pagan project has, has been one fundamentally of giving people. Personal autonomy and authority and agency to make their own decisions and then supporting them in, in doing that, at least in its idealized sense. That's what it's been now. Pagans are human. Like everybody else, people get scared. People have negative reactions, people, you know, discover that they really don't like the wife's boyfriend. They. They don't like him and it's not because he's the wife's boyfriend. They just don't like this guy. He's not, you know, he's just not the kind of guy that they like. So now what do you do, right.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And that requires a lot of work and it requires a lot of processing and maybe things work out and maybe they don't. But the point is you got to make those decisions for yourself rather than just being told you can't even experiment in this realm because it's not allowed. Yucca: Yeah. It's not whatever, it's not natural. It's not moral. It's not legal, you know?  Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: Now one interesting area that I personally don't have very much experience with within the pagan community is that there. And I think this is, is somewhat falling out of fashion. But in, if we go back several decades, when there was much more focus on the God and the goddess duality, especially within WCA in particular, I think some of that did have influence on the, the communities that we're practicing in that and how relationships should look. But in a lot of ways, though, some of those representations of the God and the goddess were really. Based in the preexisting gender  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: constructs, right? Those gender roles.  Mark: Yeah, very much so. And that's why there is so much controversy now. And there are so many people working within WCA to, to dissolve that gender polarity and look at divinity as much more fluid. And as we do, as science-based pagans, understanding that gender and sexuality exist on spectrum. That that can be very, very nuanced and that's true throughout nature. And it's true for humans too. And that that's all great. Yucca: And it's only a tiny minority of nature that even does that.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: right. It's pretty new, very, very new. And, and it's, you know,  Mark: We're still ironing the bugs out. Yucca: oh yeah. And we'll see you in a million years, what happens with, well, we won't humans. We'll see you in a few million years. If we're still around, what happens with us? See how that goes.  Mark: Right. Yucca: So,  Mark: I we're, we're getting towards the end of the podcast now, but I'm I'd really like to invite people who are experiencing what they feel are actualized kinds of relationships, you know, where you have a good. Communicative. Negotiating collaborating kind of relationship with your partner or partners be really interested to hear about your experience with that in a pagan context and how your paganism informs you know, Your relationship. It's a whole other thing to talk about relating to family that aren't pagan when you are, we did an episode on that a while back. But I'll at least touch on the issue here just to, you know, so, so you can see that there's representation. Yes, we see you. We know that that's a challenge. It's really hard. Yucca: Yeah. I see the topic come up quite frequently about having a spouse with a very different religious view.  Mark: Yes. Yeah. That can be really hard. I would think. I, I don't know. Yucca: I would imagine much more so than having parents or children with different views.  Mark: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's a really tough one and, you know, For me where I am, my spirituality is important enough to me that I don't know that I could do that.  Yucca: I think for me, it's so entwined with my world view, right. That I don't know if that could the person that I'm with that. Our worldview. Have to match enough, at least that we are able to, to interact and have that, that we can come to the table and work out whatever's happening with us after week after week, because it's not like it ever stops. We've we, we keep growing, we keep changing. The world keeps changing way faster than we can keep track of. right. And so, I, don't know if, if. I don't even know how to separate out my religion and spirituality from the rest of me. It's so I don't see it as these separate boxes. He doesn't know who to talk about the physical, emotional, spiritual, like, no, no, no, that's all, that's all just part of me. That's all related and that's part of my relationship. Right.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: So it's, it would be. Yeah. There's just so much to, every relationship has so much to navigate because it's not just every single person does, but then when It becomes a relationship, the emphasis so much it's exponentially more complex. Mark: It is, it's a multiplier effect. It's not additional, it's a multiplier. And where people you add, the more of a multiplier it is. I mean the Emirates are famous for lots of processing, lots and lots and lots and lots of processing. And Yucca: And in that case, I would imagine that, and this is a topic to come back to at another point, but that some sort of formal structure for conflict resolution might be incredibly valuable. In a case like that, again, depending on the group, but, but even having a structure for two people for conflict resolution. But once you're starting to add more people in and then adding on layers of, of, if they're a household together, there's finances there's, there may be children. There may be all kinds of levels that get added on to that.  Mark: sure. There's just scheduling time for people to be together.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Which I mean, if you add children into the mix and everything, it can just get all very, very, very complicated. And then what time is available, you may end up, spend up end up spending processing instead of like enjoying the presence of your partner. So it, yeah, it it's, it's challenging, but the people that practice it find it very rewarding. And what I want to say is, I'm not advocating any particular style of relationship. What I'm advocating is that people have the styles of relationships that they want.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And if that is a very traditional look, getting men and women in a household with children, that's terrific if that's what you want, but there's a range of what people can want and they should have what they want. Yucca: Yeah, exactly. And that, if that is what you want. that's what works for you. There doesn't need to be the shame around it. Right,  Mark: right.  Yucca: and, and there's, and my personal opinion, we got way too much shame going on. Right. You're it's always the damned if you do damned, if you don't, you know, you, you wanna. Be a homemaker and shame on you for doing those old fashioned, you know, not sticking up for your gender or whatever you want to be out in the world then. Oh, shame on you for not spending enough time with your partner or children or, you know, and none of that is helpful.  Mark: No. Yucca: Right. And It's hard to get rid of. Right. I feel it, everybody deals with it. Mark: It's been the primary enforcement weapon for the over culture for centuries, you know, the, the, the use of, of shame and not, not just like social shame, like the Scarlet letter, but internalized shame the sense of doing wrong because you're violating that doctrine that has been, you know, kind of. Beaten into you by the fact that you live in this culture, that you've seen it over and over. You've seen it in a million movies Noumea and I have a joke that polyamory would destroy most movies.  Yucca: Yes.  Mark: Because all the tension, all the conflict, you know, all the, all the love triangles, all the, it would just destroy the plot of many dramas, almost all the romantic comedies. It just,  Yucca: just, honest communication. Just say what you're feeling, you know, or common sense. Right. You know, put a drop of common sense in there. And that whole thing dissolves  Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: we have. Well, it, and the shame about the shame thing is that it doesn't serve anyone.  Mark: No. Yucca: It's not like there's someone winning. So to say out of any of it, we're all just suffering from it.  Mark: Right. Well, I mean, if you really buy into the, the mainstream framework, then the idea is that the shame is driving you to walk the straight and narrow so that you can go to that. But we don't buy any of that at, we just, you know, we don't buy any, any single part of that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and if you do well power to you enjoy that. If that's the path you want to walk, but what we're doing here is really key that happiness. Here in this world, but that we know that is here and Yucca: I personally doubt that there's anything after words. Right? I  Mark: yeah. Yucca: that we are a beautiful, wonderful collection of atoms that. Breaks apart and becomes part of another beautiful, wonderful collection of atoms at some point. But I could be wrong. I highly doubt that there is something, but I don't. But what I do know is that there is now  Mark: This is  Yucca: me. I'm here. This is all I know that I get. And I don't even know if I get tomorrow.  Mark: Right. So pursuit of practices and and values that foster happiness become very important because what else are we doing here? And it's not just our own happiness, it's the happiness of those around us. It's the happiness of the ecosystem. It's the happiness of the future, as well as our own Honestly, if this is all there is what other possible value set would make any sense, because accumulating lots of stuff, you're still gonna die. Accumulating a lot of power you're still gonna die. If you accumulate power and you use it for good, well, I can see some rationale for that. So, you know, I have a couple of friends who were in Congress and they're good people and they're doing good work and I'm glad that they're there. But I don't know. I just it's. Unfathomable to me, why people would clean to the guilt and the shame around their desire and around their wish to connect with other people and around their doing the things that they love.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: it's just, it's not helping anybody.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: It's certainly not helping the people that are feeling. Yucca: And this, this relationship. I again, everybody's going to come into it with a different approach, different hopes from it. For me, it really just always comes back to it's about nurturing each other and supporting each other in that beautiful, happy, meaningful, joyous life. That's that's what it comes down to. And it's, it's not easy all the time. And the whole, the love will carry you through happily ever after. I don't really believe in that. I think that it takes work. It takes commitment. You're going to be pissed off. Right.  Mark: Right. Yucca: gonna do something that is just, what the hell were they thinking? And frankly, you're going to too, because we're humans.  Mark: Hm. Yucca: Right. And, and everything changes and, and being, being able to come back just to always being able to come back to that table with that honesty and that self-reflection and re evaluation is what lets us. Take this journey together, then help each other through it.  Mark: Right. Right. And not be alone  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: to feel truly seen and connected and valued. Over a long period of time, which, which will be an evolutionary journey. It will not be the same as when you started. So if you do decide to write down some agreements, I suggest you revisit them every few years, tear them up and start over because people change. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And, you know, one of the things that we've seen with the Abrahamic religions is that once you write things down, they don't change their, you might reinterpret them, but they're really locked in on the page and you don't want to be locked in. You want to be having agreements that fulfill who you are at this time. Yucca: Yeah. They keep growing and changing like that river, Right. It's the same river or is it love that? Right. And you keep, it keeps readjusting itself. Okay.  Mark: Yeah. One of the really cool archeological. Fines in the American south is a steamship, a, a river steamer that sank with all of its cargo and was rediscovered in an Arkansas cornfield, something like a mile and a half from the Mississippi river, because that's where the river used to be.  Yucca: That's great.  Mark: It is really cool. They. Th all the stuff was there. And so there's now a museum and, but yeah, the river moved Yucca: So we'll come back to this topic again, but this was our kind of our intro, our thinking about relationships. Wedding season or reevals or all of that stuff.  Mark: And if you're doing those things, our fondest wishes to you and best of luck, and we hope you have a beautiful day. Yucca: Thanks, Mark.  Mark: Thank you. Thank you.

In this episode, we look at the big talking points from the world of cricket. We talk about our experience of visiting an overcast Southampton for the WTC Final where I (Mark) was asked for ID to get a beer! We look ahead to the jam-packed summer of cricket fixtures and discuss how England can use the India series to get ready for the Ashes.

Markéta Puzrlová se zabývá obchodem. Má pro něj veliký zápal. Ráda se setkává s lidmi a vyjednává. Přesto před krátkým časem uzavřela prodejnu, kterou roky úspěšně budovala. Ukončení byznysu nemile překvapilo její zákazníky. I Markéta sama se musela se svým rozhodnutím poprat. Tehdy ještě nic netušila o blížící se epidemii. Jen si dovedla dobře spočítat, že i malá krize by pro její obchod molha být nebezpečná. Zvítězilo pragmatické uvažování a to Markétě ušetřilo spoustu starostí. Že by vedení Prozřetelnosti?

Hey listener, It is addressed right at the top of the show, but our dear friend and co host and business partner and overall GREAT person Keo is sick and unable to join us for this episode. Please keep her in your thoughts, prayers, and/or vibes. We greatly appreciate it and hope she is able to rejoin us ASAP!Now for episode 178 - Rev and I (Mark) talk all sorts of shit about movies, Star Wars, Will Smith, and so much more. Please enjoy this episode of The Pink Fox Podcast!

So, you've interviewed over 300 strategists from around the world and spoken with thousands more... what aren't we talking about enough? In this episode published on the third anniversary of the Sweathead podcast, I (Mark) run you through a stream-of-consciousness list of fifteen points that I feel are true but not in a science way. They're true in a "we need to pay more attention to this" way. You can find this podcast episode as a post on Instagram http://www.instagram.com/markpollard and on LinkedIn if you'd like to share it with colleagues: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/markpollardstrategist_300-strategist-interviews-activity-6770700692966526976-vj-s Thank you for listening to the podcast and for being part of the Sweathead world. ** Favor: If you have enjoyed the pod, could you drop a kind review or rating? I haven't asked many times before but it's time to step up what I'm doing. Thank you.

Me, myself and I - Mark 10:35-42 - Past John Shipman - 25 Oct 20 by Pastor. John Shipman

A bestselling author, and professional editor, joins the Am Writing Fantasy podcast to give you advice on how to edit your first draft. What do you need to pay attention to? What are some of the common errors writers make over and over again. Kristina Stanley, the CEO of Fictionary, share lots and lots of information in episode 79.  Learn about Fictionary here: https://fictionary.co/ Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). Narrator (2s): You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from riding Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now on to the show with your hosts. Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Jesper (30s): Hello. I am Jesper. And this is episode 79 of The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. And as you can hear, Autumn is taking a break today. And instead I'm joined by Kristina Stanley who is the CEO of Fictionary. Fictionary is a platform run by Kristina and her husband. Kristina is a best selling author and a fiction editor. And we are going to talk about editing today. So welcome to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, Kristina Kristina (1m 1s): Thank you for having me it's pleasure to be here. Jesper (1m 5s): So I actually did check on the Fictionary website earlier today. Kristina and I saw you're actually had quite a nice description of how and why Fictionary start it. And I was thinking that that might be a good place to start if you could retell a bit of that story. So our listeners as well, get to know you a little better here. Kristina (1m 25s): Sure. I'd love to, I mean, who doesn't like talking about their story. Exactly. Yeah. So, umm, Fictionary came to be from my writing career and I started that in around 2009 and I started writing the stone mountain series and I started writing that because I just left living in a ski resort and I missed it and I wanted to write about it. And what I found after I had three novels in the series written and I was having trouble editing it and keeping track of everything. Kristina (1m 59s): And I had this massive, massive spreadsheet organized. And my husband actually walked by and looked at my computer and said, what are you doing? And I said, Oh, I Writing is like an Excel when I said, Oh, well, okay, I'm actually editing and I need to keep track. And this is how I do it. And he said, Oh, there's gotta be a better way. I'll find you something. And so he went on this search of course, for a product that would help me. And they're just, wasn't anything that focused on story editing, you know, there's lots for copy editing and proofreading, but really nothing on the structure of a story. Kristina (2m 31s): And the two of us decided together that we would build a product and that was kind of the beginning of it. You know, it was just sort of idea of it. Well, lets make an app and see what happens. Jesper (2m 46s): So is it more like an... an app that keeps track of everything or how does it work? Kristina (2m 53s): So it's how it works. So we like to focus on people who have a draft written and you can right from scratch and Fictionary, but that's not really our thing. Our thing is if you have a draft written, you import it into Fictionary and Fictionary scan's it. And when it's scanning it, it draws the story arc and it compares it to a commercially successful book of around the same length. And it gives the rider right away, a look at, you know, where their key plot points are for exciting incident excetera and are they in the right place? Kristina (3m 26s): It does that word count per seen and shows you in a visual way. So here's your work comp foreseen. And so you can see what your pacing is doing and do you have any outliers that are just too long or too short or something? And it pulls out using natural language processing. It pulls out all of the character names and links them to Saenz and then chose a writer. You know, how many characters are need seen. And when they come in, who's got the point of view and how many point of view characters or are and stuff. And so it's a very visual way for a writer to look at their story. Kristina (4m 0s): And then, because it's all broken out and organized and just seeing and chapters, we push scene by scene editing and we have 38 story elements there that help the writer know what to look at when they're evaluating their own story. Jesper (4m 18s): Yeah. That, that's very interesting. Actually, I don't, as you said in the beginning of that, I can't think of any other product like exactly like that. I mean, I know of other products where you can use it to sort of structure well character's, you can connect them together visually as well. And you can, well, the whole world of building part that comes with Fantasy, for example, you can connect all the places together and in the visual fashion, I know tool's like that, but not really tools where I think I can think of where you can upload your draft like that. Kristina (4m 50s): Yeah. And it, I mean, part of historically this happened because I have a degree in computer mathematics and my husband has a degree in computer science. And so even though I'm a writer, I have a very techie background. And so I was naturally drawn to this side of it and to figure out how this would all work and how would you draw a story arc and, and, and make these things happen. So it really, really entertained both sides of my brain to, to work on this and build it. Jesper (5m 22s): Yeah. I can certainly see that. Okay. Well that's actually pretty cool. And maybe we can a at the end of the episode, we can just to make sure that we give people a link so they can go and check that out. She, is there any like M is there any like a trial version, stuff like that or a demo versions of people can use? Kristina (5m 40s): Yeah, absolutely. So we have a two week free trial. So you just pop in your manuscript and have a look around, we have online chats, so people could ask us questions on how to use it. And when people sign up to the free trial, they also get a 14 lesson online course that goes with it, that teaches all of the story elements and why they're important and how to use them and what it means to you as a writer. And so there's a whole educational piece that goes with it to help people as they work through Fictionary and are kind of a dream, is that once you go through it once, then the next time you write a novel, it's much easier because you have all of this in your head and you know how to start a scene and is seen all over. Kristina (6m 24s): These are things that, especially newer writer's, you have to learn how to do. Jesper (6m 29s): Yeah. And the whole structure of a novel, I mean, they're is a formulaic approach to structuring a novel. And while we, as authors needs to understand how that formula works and how to put all those different milestones, that the right places in a novel, you know, that the reader don't really understand those, but they intuitively know. So if it's off, they will intuitively sort of feel like there's something wrong with the structure of the story, but they won't be able to pinpoint what it is. But a, we as authors really need to understand that Kristina (7m 1s): It's a super important point because what we're trying to do with Fictionary is make the Author aware of it. And so if you do decide to break the rules, know why you're doing it. And then you're making an educated decision on, well, that doesn't work from my story and I have a reason for it. And that's great as opposed to just getting it wrong. And then you don't know why your story's not working. Jesper (7m 21s): Yeah, indeed. Okay. That, that's a very good, but I also know, based on the whole thing that you have developed here at Kristina that you really liked editing isn't that right? Kristina (7m 32s): Yeah, I do. I do. It's kind of funny that I, I had no idea when I started writing that really my true passion is editing. I love working with writers. We developed a, an Editor product to go along with our Writing product, just for our editors to do structural edits in it with the dream that we can make editors really strong editor's. And so I edit maybe one, one novel a month just to keep my skillset up, but it's not, it's not, my main focus were really focus now on pushing Fictionary Editor version out to editor's and which we call it a story coach. Kristina (8m 9s): And it's really meant to help an editor do a comprehensive story, edit without being biased. So it makes it really objective and they have to cover everything and it ends up being a really good edit for the writer. Jesper (8m 23s): Yeah. So it sounds like you've actually come quite a long way from when you were first sitting with that Excel sheet, then this is how I'm editing two now, where, where are you both built this up here, but also teaching other Editor other people how to get it. Kristina (8m 40s): Yeah. And so we've got 'em we have a Fictionary certified story coach editing program that we bring editors through to teach them how to do a proper structural edit and then certify them so that when a rider hires and Editor, they know what they are getting, and they know that person really understands story versus hiring an editor that may be thinks they do or have certain biases have how they edit and, and were trying to push editors to get a little bit away from that. Jesper (9m 8s): Yeah. But you see, this is the second Why. I want you to come on the podcast today because you have the excellent, an excellent approach here and a very strong background in educating us, hear on the podcast a bit about how do we go about editing. And especially also when authors are self-editing down the work, you know, maybe a good place to start would be just so when you start editing a new manuscript, what is the first thing you do? Jesper (9m 37s): Do, do you just start from page one and then you start editing or do you read through it in a high level pass first? Or what do you do? Kristina (9m 44s): Yeah, so we like to first thing for, for newer authors, I mean, authors who are more experienced they're a little bit farther along, but for newer Author of the most important thing is to understand what a scene is and look through their manuscript and make sure that they have their scene structure done right first. And so when I encourage riders to do, if they are already broken out into scenes and chapters, that's great. Then I'll, I'll tell her, I'll tell you a bit where you would start at that point, but there are many newer writer writers who have written their novel and it's not properly structured into stories and oriented scenes. Kristina (10m 22s): And so what I recommend is first going through and looking for logical places to start seeing them without thinking about word account that can come later, but just to look through and go, okay, so the point of view has changed or at the point of view, character has changed. That's a good place to start a new scene, or the location has changed, or the timing has changed. These are three key areas where a rider can go through and, and read their manuscript, not don't focus on words and copyediting or anything like that. Kristina (10m 56s): Just go through and look for the points where you would break out a scene. And once you've done that, it's amazing how you can see the structure of your story just by having it broken into scene's and its a big eye opener. When you do that for the first time, it's really kind of fun and you can see how many scenes you have and once you've done that, then you can start looking at all of the other things you need to do for a story at it. Does that make sense? Jesper (11m 23s): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes it can be confusing and then in, for a new author, when, when you stop doing the editing because they're is there's a tendency to, well, okay. I stopped on page one and then I will stop looking at commerce or spelling errors or making the sentences sound a bit better. But I think there's a very good point in looking at the overall structure first. And even if you don't have something like Fictionary help you then at least educate yourself by, you know, reading, maybe nonfiction books about how to plot a novel and understand the structure of it and this out there and see when you're off. Kristina (12m 5s): And it is it's super important not to waste time on making a sentence or beautiful. I mean, in some people do it in actually some people really struggled. You have to spend a lot of time and not to spend time on the commas and typos and all of those things until you have a story because what's going to happen once you've broken out everything in the scenes, you're gonna realize that, okay, you have a lot of revisions to do. And if you spend hours making everything perfect at this sentence level, but your story is off, you have to rewrite it anyway and then you have to copy it all over again. Kristina (12m 37s): And I certainly don't recommend paying for a copy at it or proofreading until you've done your own story at it that you will have to do it again. And it's kind of a waste of money if you do it too early. Jesper (12m 49s): Yeah. So, so what your view on this revision past as you know, how many should, is there any recommendation you would give to say, okay, you can do one past in the high level story elements, you know, and one pass in looking at the copy, edit, and then you do a third pass proof reading and then you hand it off to copyedit or something. Or do I, do we have like a work permit methodology? Did you follow the customer that right? Kristina (13m 20s): Yeah. So again, it depends on the level of the, where the author is in their career and how many books they've written because the more books you write, obviously the easier it becomes, you know how to structure so you can start and different places. But the basic thing is once, once everything is broken out into scenes, then I like to recommend that they Author Now goes through and names each scene in three words or less. And the reason I say this is if you can't name a scene, you don't know what it's about. Kristina (13m 51s): So you should be able to name names every scene in your story. And by doing that, it tells you, does it have a place in this story? So it does it have a purpose in my story and everybody gets carried away writing and your right, this fantastic seen, and you will love it, but it was nothing to do with your story. It's just a great scene about the character. Right? Okay. So if you can't define the name and the purpose of that scene, then perhaps it shouldn't be in the story. And so it's a good place to start looking at high level. Kristina (14m 23s): Do you, as an author understand why you put every scene in your story, Jesper (14m 28s): Right? Yeah. Fully agree with that for sure. So that's right. Kristina (14m 33s): It's a big step. I mean it takes time, right? You have to really think hard when your doing it. Yes, Jesper (14m 39s): Indeed. But it's still like something that you would say. So when you have edited tons of manuscripts, so is, is there something that you would say maybe we could put them into buckets here? So it's sort of seeing the bucket, one being The fletching rider who is just starting out and maybe another bucket with the more experienced Ryder, but is there some common issues that you see that is very in both buckets? Because I, I think that they will be different, but it still like a common issue is that you see popping up over and over again from, from the stuff that you edit. Kristina (15m 16s): Yeah. So the big, the big things that show up the thing that I see most often as people don't know when to start an indices. So even if they're story is broken into the scenes, they are starting a scene at the wrong place or ending at, at the wrong place. And what I mean by that is if, if, when you think about as a reader, when you're reading a book and you're kind of getting tired and you want to, you're you kind of peak at the next seen to see if you wanna keep reading you going to read three or four sentences and if it captures you right away, okay, I'm going to keep reading, I'll get one more seen and all fuel, all accomplished. Kristina (15m 50s): It's great. Write if you look at anything, it kind of boring. If you put the book down in, he might not pick it back up or would you pick it back up your eyes? You're a little bit out of the flow. So having an entry hook, there's a lot of stuff written about the first first sentence of your novel has to be the best in your opening hook. Have your novel has to be the best, but I believe the opening hook of your every scene has to be strong because every time you start, a new scene has a chance for the reader to put that book down, they finish a scene and if they are not engaged in the next scene. Kristina (16m 25s): And so I often look right away to see how is the author doing their entry hooks. And then at the end of the scene, I want to see how are they leaving the scene and do they leave it at the right point? And often you can just cut off the last two paragraphs and there's the right point to leave it. So you leave it with an unanswered question or someone just built a big secret that they shouldn't have, or a cliff hanger, you know, there's really intriguing piece of dialog or a revelation or a part of a revelation or something like that. So that the end of the scene, the reader is feeling okay. Kristina (16m 58s): I just... I have to keep reading and you'll notice really good books, all have a great entry and exit hook for every single seat and as hard to do because you try and fill in with description and, and have a lot of ambiance around it. And if your skillset isn't quite there yet on how to make that suspenseful, it's tricky to do it. Jesper (17m 19s): Yeah. Autumn and Aye, we, we plot our novels in quite a lot of detail, but that's also of course, because we are co writing. So we need to know where things are going. So we have quite a lot of details, but I would say, especially with what you just mentioned here at the beginning of each chapter, and also at the end of each chapter, we spent quite a lot of time in the plotting phase detailing out, how has this kind of start on how it's just going to end? And we, we try to be a bit creative as well, so that every chapter doesn't enter the same way. You know, it shouldn't that every time a chapter in the monster appears or whatever, you know? Jesper (17m 52s): Right. So, but, but I think if it doesn't come natural to you, to, or for the writer to, to find the right place to stop the scene or whatever, a lot of it can be gained by just planning out ahead, you know, figuring out a head, how do you want this one to end and find a good cliffhanger or something to add on it. Kristina (18m 14s): And it really just comes down to thinking about it, like, and to know that you need to think about it as a writer. And once you have that in your head, even when your writing and you write on an unplanned scene is if it's there and your head, you know it. And so you write that way and it's really the first time going through it, really learning. This is how you do it. And of course experienced all authors make mistakes too. And you put too much in, and then you're Editor comes and goes, Hey, take all that out. And you know, if you cringe any to take it all out. Yeah. Jesper (18m 41s): Yes, that's absolutely true. But I also think when were talking about seeing some chapters or However, or somebody wants to whatever they want to call it, but when were talking about that, and we were talking about starting points and points, I think that there is also something that I could imagine, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I couldn't imagine what you would also see quite often as an issue is that there is not enough variation on high conflict versus low conflict chapter's so that if you can read several chapters with high conflict and a, in a row does not really a problem, but if you read 15 of them in road and you're gonna get tired, you no, you need a break and read, it needs to break once in a while. Kristina (19m 23s): Yup. Yeah. And the tricky part comes. So when you give the reader a brake, you want to go maybe into a contemplate of seeing where your character is reacting to something. And those are hard scenes too, right. Because you wanted to get the characters feeling's out and, and how is it changing them and what decisions or are they gonna make based on it. And so it's a really great time to connect your readers two, your character's when you get to those contemplate of scenes and if they are placed right within exactly what you're saying, that you've got action. Kristina (19m 55s): Action, action, action, action. A bit of a SQL. Okay. It gives you gives your reader a, a, a breath, and then they also feel it along with the character. So it's very important. Jesper (20m 5s): Yeah. And I feel a lot of the time, those bit of a break chapter, or if we call it that those are excellent tools to use For for the character arc to basically build upon the character arc and how they change throughout the novel. You can use those a, if you have like five of the slow chapters throughout the entire novel, those are excellent five different points where you can show that the character is, is going through the character arc because they are reflective seems so. Jesper (20m 36s): So they are good. They put to good use there. Kristina (20m 38s): Well, and you know, whose book has really good on this is Sasha Black's book that just came out, that's called anatomy of pros. And she has super examples in their, of exactly what were talking about Andy. She gives a new way of writing out that goes to, this is good. And then she rewrites it and you can say, this is great. And it's exactly what you're saying about the character arc can, it's it, it's a great book. So anyone who is working on not as highly recommend that book. Jesper (21m 4s): Yes, absolutely. And the, also for the listener, if you forgot, we actually have Sasha black on this podcast as well. I don't recall the episode number on the top of my head here, but if you go back through the archive, you can certainly find it a, when we talked to a Sasha blacks, so she knows what she's talking about. So, so that's a very good as well. What I was also wondering, and this is sort of something that pops up over and over and over again, you know, Autumn, and I also do courses for authors and stuff like that. So we also are heavily into the teachings. Jesper (21m 35s): So we here a lot of the common questions. I think this has probably a good one to two cover here as well, because it is something a lot of people are wondering about and I have my key of you on it, but I'm curious, curious to hear he was the first time, but it basically goes to something like this. So when you're writing, is it best to edit as you go? Because then when you reach the end of the manuscript, you are sort of done. Why is it better to just write out the entire manuscript, not worrying about any of the editing or any of the grammar errors you might be making along the way, and then edit one only once you have the full first draft complete. Jesper (22m 17s): Yeah. Kristina (22m 18s): Okay. I'm going to give you a big caveat on this one. Okay. So I think it's good to get your story down and right. Your whole story, but sometimes your, your brain is tired, but you wanted to do something productive. And so maybe you want to do some copy, editing, have stuff that you've written when you don't have your whole story written. And I actually think it's not a bad thing to do because then you practice it and you can start to see where your weaknesses are and what you need to fix in what you might wanna look at when your doing a full copy at it. Kristina (22m 51s): So, I mean, I have author friends who are perfect each seen, but they've done a very serious outline. Kind of, it sounds like what you do to see the outline has written. They know what the story is. They know what's going on in every seen and they know how to write a story. And so they right there seen, and then they prefect it and they go to the next one, four other people who are, you know, what are called pastors, you know, writing by the seat of your pants, like to get the whole story out. And so there's a lot of personal preference. Kristina (23m 22s): I believe that there should be a lot of joy in writing. And so to force yourself to do it one way or another, if it makes you unhappy, it's not the right way. For for you as an author, you know, I'm a big proponent of finish your story and then do all your, your copy editing and proofreading. However, if it's not what works best for you and your process don't change it because somebody else told to Jesper (23m 47s): Right now, I think that's actually a fair and good answer in my view. Normally I would say, Oh, as well, that it, it sort of depends a bit. I think a lot of the people who doing the edit S they go, they also use the editing as a bit of procrastination tool. So it was like, yeah, I don't quite know where two right. Two I'll keep editing my previous chapters. So we don't really move ahead. And if that's the case that, and I think it's an issue. Jesper (24m 18s): Yes. And then you, you need to, you need to press forward because as you also said, I'm also usually advocating. It's more important to get to the end of the draft and it is to make it sound nice. So as you go, yup. But when I say that, I also have to say that for some people, it is just incredibly annoying to know that there was a spelling error on page 45 and they almost can't get it out of their head. So if, if, if it really annoys you that much, then you know, correct those small spelling errors as you go, if you really can't see past it, that that's better than getting annoyed about it. Kristina (24m 53s): And I think as you write more books, your process changes as you go because your strengths change and your interests change and the technology changes. And so you don't need to get stuck in one way. You try one, if it doesn't work for you to try something else and don't be afraid to try something else. Jesper (25m 12s): Yeah. And I think it also ties back into how much you're actually plotting that novel in advanced, because a as you alluded to before, if you really know everything that needs to happen already, then basically Autumn, and Aye, we can sort of edit it as you go. I can write the draft first chapter, and then she can edit it while I write chapter too. And that's possible because we know exactly what's going to happen. And, and we have been around the Bush enough to know how to do it. And so, but yeah, I think, I think as well that it is something that evolves over time, but, but it is just, and if you don't get too, the end of the first draft before eight years have passed, well, I guess that's okay. Jesper (25m 52s): But on the other hand, it's not going to help you at least earn any income from WRITING. If it takes me that long to do it. So you also need to sort of push yourself forward Kristina (26m 1s): And that's hard, you know, they're, at some point you have to let somebody else read your story in that first time you do that. It's really difficult. It's a, it's a kind of a frightening moment because you've spent, you know, maybe at least a year on it, and then someone else is going to have comments after they spend a few hours reading it. Right. The hard moment Jesper (26m 20s): It is, it is very hard. I still remember when I gave my first first book too, a critique partner. And he was just like, no, let's just, Oh my God, I spend so much time a lot of them. And he just said, no, this doesn't work. Kristina (26m 36s): I know it's hard. And, and as an editor, you have to be very careful with writers to make sure I point out here, the places that your really good to you, you know, they're our strengths here. And here's why I'm saying maybe you want to change something that its from an editor prospective, it's really important not to demotivate a writer and make them feel like they're not good at writing a story because everybody can be. And it just takes a bit of hard work in some time. Jesper (27m 2s): Yeah. And don't you think as well, that one of the problems or challenges we have, he is also, I mean of course you can take like, what is it called an MFA or whatever is called a, you know, a degree in Writing. But even without a degree in the only way you learn how to write is by writing it, it's not like a carpenter who will go to carpenter school and he'll be at Prentice for a while and then he will know how to do carpeting. It's not like that with writing. Right? Of course. In some sense, in what way you could say that it is like that because you keep riding and, and you get editing and then you get better, but it is different in the way that it's not like you go to a school and then you get some grades and, and you will know if you are good or bad is we spent two years writing something and then you put it, you give it to the Editor who knows what they are doing. Jesper (27m 48s): And then you could hear the hard truth. Right? So yeah, it is, it is tough, but I fully agree with you that it's important as well. On one hand, of course I would expect from an editor who knows what they're doing and who are good at it, that they also know how to give feedback and a good manner. So you don't scare people off because it's a vulnerable process. Right. But on the other hand, if you want a, if you want to seriously get into writing and also write to for commercial purposes to earn money from it, you also have to take it, you know, because if the end of that might be nice and professional in the way that the word things, but the review is on Amazon or not, but I'm just going to slam here. Jesper (28m 32s): So it's do you just have to learn it? Kristina (28m 35s): Yup. It's true. You do, you know, I just went through a process. I had 13 editors edit the same manuscript and it's a manuscript that I wrote with some holes in as a bit of a test. And it was very interesting to see that the breadth of the way people pointed out issues and right, most of the editors caught all the same issues and, and there were sort of the w the one end of super positive feedback that's. Kristina (29m 10s): So while you're dealing with the issues, you've felt good about, Oh, that works great. You know, you feel really good to the other end of that didn't work because you have whatever reason. And that was quite hard when you think ouch, that's just too hard. And as a, if that had been my experience as a new Author is quite frightening, right? So that's not good vs. The other ones who is super important to point out why something works and that an author is particularly good at whatever, you know, maybe entry hooks or whatever it is. Kristina (29m 40s): So it was kind of an interesting experiment to go through, to see how that many people would edit the exact same story. Jesper (29m 50s): Yeah. And they're is, well, at least as good to hear that they sort of caught the same things. And then of course, to feedback element, it's more like the, how do you treat other humans and in terms of giving them feedback and that's, I mean, I've, I've worked in management for many, many, many years and it's, it's one of the things you have to learn. You're, you know, if you have an employee who's not performing it, it doesn't help to shout them in the face. Right. It's much better. If you can find a motivational way of telling them that, that there's things that we could do in a bit smarter way, they will also help you and then help them along the way, rather than putting them down. Kristina (30m 24s): And, and I love it when you could see an author grow and change in their story, it just keeps getting better in its it's really fun when that happens. Yeah. Jesper (30m 33s): But I'm curious as well. Kristina so when you were say, when you just said Anne Author growth, because I'm also curious, have you a process for editing changed over time? You know, editor to editor is also grow in their skills of editing. So it, is there something that you do differently nowadays compared to what you used to do when editing, right. Kristina (30m 52s): Yeah. So when I used to edit it, I mean I would read a story and go through it and ms. Word and, you know, edit based on the knowledge in my head. And now I use my own product story coach because all of this story elements or are there and it makes me look at every scene for the writer and go, okay, what's the conflict in this scene? What's the tension in this scene? What's the backstory. Is there a flashback you can't get away with? You know, you read to see anything, Oh, it was pretty good to move on or you can find a lot more. Kristina (31m 25s): And when you're looking at key story elements to see, are they in every seen and you can get really in depth feedback. And now when I write a summary letter to an editor or to write, or it will be somewhere around 5,000 words, have high level comments for their story. And then I do for every scene Aye I have notes on that particular scene of what worked or it needs improvement. And then I Mark up all the story elements and give them a nice big check Mark, if it's awesome. Kristina (31m 59s): And they did a great, or I get a specific feedback too, you know, maybe I can't figure out what the purpose of a scene is. And so I'll put a note. I don't know what the purpose is sometimes when you read the whole book and go, Oh, I got the purpose of, of that sea now. But when you first read it, you can't quite figure it out. And so for example, if I say a book has 70 scenes and you know, 15 of them, I don't know what the purpose is that tells me the writer's a little bit lost and it gives me a way to really focus and be specific and say, you know, you have 17 scenes and 15 of them don't have a purpose. Kristina (32m 34s): So we need to work on that piece of, of why that is in there and what we want to do it. Jesper (32m 41s): Yeah. Touch. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I was just why you were saying that it was just thinking about how it must be you sometimes as well when your editing fantasy novels. Because one of the really tricky part that I, I guess may, well, maybe we have it in common with cipher authors, but in general, the FANTASY and see if I, at least we always have to walk that really careful balance between the info dumping versus a given the information through the narrative. But you also have to give some information just like here it is, this is explain it now. Jesper (33m 16s): And hopefully the only in one sense, and so that it's a quick and done an over with, but it is an incredibly difficult line to walk some times Kristina (33m 24s): It is because you do need the information there. And then of course the talented Author is put out a lot of that information. They can give through action by what the character touches or feels or a CS. You know, I can do it through the point of view description so that they're feeling something while they're seeing something. And, and that makes it a little bit, umm, it's more engaging for that for the reader. And then, you know, it has an author when you've got it, you just have to say Jesper (33m 54s): Right. Kristina (33m 55s): Something very specific about the setting or some magic capability or whatever Because I just have to say it and as long as you know that and when you place it in, you want to make it as smooth as possible. Jesper (34m 6s): Yeah. But do you see, so when you were working with a lot of different editors, do you see that it's Editor or you also have their own view on how is too much info dumping, for example, versus when that this is, this is okay. OK. Because at least when I, if I look at written fantasy novels, even from some of the very, very popular Fantasy, Author am not going to name any names yet, but I have red fantasy novels as a well written by, you know, massive global best seller authors. Jesper (34m 43s): And I don't quite like it. It's just not, not my cup of tea. And I have a feeling that I think that this is very much, I fully agree with the fact I should back up and say, I fully agree with the fact that there is a right way on a long way, to some extent and doing it. You, you can't feel the one and a half page with info dumping about a culture, just because you want to tell the reader about it. That's not, that's not what I'm saying here for what our more thing is that I think there is a in, in terms of how to do it they're is sort of have a degree in or how much is too much versus how much is too little. Jesper (35m 18s): That kind of thing might be a bit on a personal preference, but I don't know what your view is because you can edit it hundreds and hundreds of novels. So, but yeah. How many of you that Kristina (35m 29s): I'll give a tip to writers? If you use beta readers, it's a specific question you can ask or a beta readers. But so first from an editors point of view, what, what I tell Editor is the second you start to skim, there's something wrong. And if you think it's the info dump thing, because there's too much there and you are starting to skim through it, you got to Mark that and then look at that and go, why am I skimming here? Well, maybe it's because there's too much information on this new city setting and there's no character interaction with that setting. Kristina (36m 3s): It's just a two and a half page description of some Citi and you don't know why it relates to the plot or the character. So skimming is a big tip to, to an editor to, to right away go, Oh, okay, what's happening here in this story. And the other thing for info dump two little. If that's an editor, you get confused calling not enough information in there and the writer could put more in and you know, editors read very carefully and they pay attention to story. Kristina (36m 34s): And so if an editor gets confused, the writer should listen to that and should go, okay. I confuse the editor and they don't know what's happening here or they don't understand why this was possible. He needs to pay attention to it because they are reading very carefully. Now also as an editor have to caution that if you start to skim, make sure it's not just because you're tired and you've been editing for too long. So, you know, an hour is good. And then after that, for me personally, I've got a step up and do something else because then I can't pay attention as hard as I'm paying attention when I'm fresh. Kristina (37m 8s): And so skimming doesn't automatically mean there's to much of an info them. It could just mean like tired, but its it's a big trigger. And what I wanted to say for, for readers, when you have beta readers, sometimes especially if they're friends and family, they don't wanna tell you what they don't like. But if you just ask them, please just Mark. Every place you start to skim, you can't hurt my feelings. I just need to know this. You can then as a writer, look at that and go, huh, is that an, an, an info dump or is this boring? What's going on here? And if you have two or three beta readers who are at the same passage as their skimming than, you know, for sure there's something wrong with it. Jesper (37m 45s): Yeah. I quite liked that approach that you were mentioning there. Kristina and I must say, because what I normally say is that if you add, at least if you are starting out, I normally caution authors are very, very much on using beta readers because in my view is a hundred times better to either hide the higher and Editor who knows what they are doing and who can help you or find a critique partner who also know what they're doing and listen to one person. Because especially when you're starting out, you're getting, let's say the 30 beta readers and they will give you 30 different points that they like or dislike. Jesper (38m 19s): And they will also be contradictory to each other. So when you were starting out, it's more confusing than helpful because you don't know either what it's right or wrong. So you were hoping that you are going to get 30 pieces of feedback that is all aligned and will help you understand. Oh, okay. I see. And then you can move out for it. That's not the reality of it. You're going to get 30 strange topics popping off all over the place and it's not helpful at all. So, but I like the approach about it. If you only say what you just said, you know, just highlight that the places where, where your eyes are glazing over the text or something, or at least that's helpful. Kristina (38m 52s): Yeah. Or your confused as to the other one. And I also asked my beta readers when you put the book down because you don't read at one setting, Please just mark, "I put the book down". Don't tell me why. Like, you know, you put it down because you wanted to have dinner or it doesn't matter. Do you want to see the break points where a beta readers are putting your book down? Because it means that it wasn't quite enough to get them to that next scene. And again, if you have multiple ones that pick the same spot that gives you something to look at and evaluate yourself as a writer, without relying on biased information from your beta reader. Kristina (39m 24s): So I wrote a blog a while back and I'm trying to think of what else I put in there, but very specific questions to beta readers of what you want from them. And then they do a great job for you because they're not afraid to hurt your feelings. Cause you've asked specifically, I need to know these things. Jesper (39m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. And, but not normally, at least when you're starting out, I, I really prefer to work with an edit who knows it because editor's know what they're doing and, and you can listen to them. And as you also said, they are very methodical. And if they pay attention to all the details and is like, normally I say, you know, we, we basically approve 90% of what the Editor comes back to us when they are editing our novels, because normally they are right. And know what they're doing, Kristina (40m 9s): But not always right. That's the other caution that I try and tell, even everybody I end up, I say, you know, to the writer that they are the artist and it is there a story in my job was to make them think about their story, but not dictate what they should do or not do with it. Right? No, absolutely. No, you won't hurt my feelings as an editor. If you just go, Nope. Not making that change and stand up your self as a writer. That it's your story. Right. And the editors, one person in the world giving you an opinion on it. Jesper (40m 40s): Yes, indeed. I agree with that. But under the same, at the same time, it also has to be set that the person giving you opinion on it is somebody who has edited hundreds of novels. Right. So it's, it, it's, it's different from a beater reader or a family member who thinks something. Kristina (40m 54s): Right. Of course it is. And you should take it seriously in think hard about why you're saying no, that, and that's why hopefully you hired an editor because they know what they're doing and you want their feedback on it. But you know, it's, it's also okay. To be a believer in your own story. Jesper (41m 14s): Oh yeah, for sure. I fully agree with that, but I'm wondering maybe I'm if, if this is possible for Christina, but I am going to ask it anyways, but I'm thinking, wow, we covered a lot of ground here. And I think there's a lot of good input for listeners, but I'm thinking, would it be possible if you, if I told you that you only give three concrete and tangible advice that our listeners could take away from this podcast episode and go and implement in their own editing process, like right here and right now, what would you be able to give us free things? Kristina (41m 47s): In fact, I'm very opinionated on that have, so this works. If you were, if you write the stories from multiple points of view, my first recommendation is to go and look at who has the point of view for every seen and what's their goal for that scene? Because if they don't have a goal, they are not doing anything. And so you should go through every single scene. Count up. Your point of view is how many do you have, does your protagonist have the most point of views? Kristina (42m 21s): Does, do you have too many points of view, have one character only in, it should be in a different point of view. So study your point of views and use it to your best. So every scene look at it and ask yourself, is this the best point of view for the seen, and I've actually found authors who have changed the protagonist because most of their point of view scenes where from a different character and they are actually writing somebody else's story. And then it became a great story because they flipped it on that one piece. Right? Right. And the goal is very important. They have to have a goal and the goal has to relate to the story. Kristina (42m 55s): So it can't be a goal to get a cup of coffee. It has to be some goal that relates to the story. And there's a consequence that your reader is going to care if they achieve that goal or not. So that's my number one thing for you when you're looking at your, when your first looking at your character's go and get your point of view straight. And then the second thing I recommend is look at the purpose of each scene, ask yourself why is it in this story? Kristina (43m 26s): The same question does the purpose of the scene relate to the overall story. So that same as goes for character. And you want to look at each scene and if one scene has to many purposes in it, are you trying to do too much? You might want to split it into two, quiet it down a little bit. So look for scenes that are bit chaotic, where there's to many reasons for it to be in this story, it could just be overwhelming too, the reader. So that's the number two. And number three is choosing the location of each scene. Kristina (43m 59s): And the important thing there is to ask yourself, what's the emotional impact you want either that character or the reader to feel. And so, for example, if you pick a couple sitting on a Hill and there's a thunderstorm off on the distance, that could be quite romantic. So maybe that's the feeling you want their, but what if that couples on a sailboat in the middle of the ocean, it's not so romantic anymore. It's frightening. And quite often in an a, in a newer storey or an early draft. Kristina (44m 30s): And I'll see that This, it's just in somebody home or this scene takes, plays in a coffee shop are in a car or some very standard thing. And so my, my pushback to the reader is what do you want your character to feel? Do you want them frightened? Well, what's in your story where you could place them in a location where they are frightened more than if they're in their home and their family is there and it's not frightening at all for them. So those are my three. So I'll just backtrack on that. It's, who's got the point of view and what's their goal it's kind of to, but I'm really that into one, the purpose of the scene. Kristina (45m 4s): And what's the emotional impact you want either the characters or your reader to feel Jesper (45m 12s): This was so excellent. Kristina I, I have thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and talk about all this stuff and give all these are excellent advice for us. Author's here. So if listeners want to learn more about you and what you do with Fictionary and all that stuff, well, where can they find you? Kristina (45m 36s): Yes. Or a website is fictionary.ceo. So not.com is.ceo. And if you're a writer than you want to look at our storyteller side of things, and if you're an editor, then it story coach. So I mean, everything about us is, is on the website. I'm we have obviously an email list where we have a really great ebook that we wrote all about the editing journey. And we wrote it together with pro WRITING ADE and with the editing company called first editing, who does professional editing. Kristina (46m 10s): And so the three companies got together and we wrote this book on one or all the different phases of editing a novel when to do them, when to do self at it, when and why you might want to hire a professional and how they will help you. So it's, it's a really great book. If you, if you're looking for just learning what our, all the different types of editing, so what structural, what substantive what's copy editing what's proofreading, et cetera, and how to use it in your own stuff. Jesper (46m 41s): Okay. That's that's really good. If, and Kristina, if you send me the links to different things, then I we'll make sure that your listener to put them in the show notes. So you can just to go and check it out from, from their, so thank you so much again for coming on today. Kristina Kristina (46m 56s): Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure. I love talking about stories, Jesper (47m 1s): All right. So next week Autumn is back and we are going to go back to the beginning and actually talk about story ideas. Narrator (47m 13s): If you like what you've just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on Patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going to stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

4.søndag i treenighetstiden I Mark.10:17-27 I Kristian Gangstø I Gudstjeneste I Betlehem I 28.6.20 by Bergens Indremisjon

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

We have a GREAT show today including Andrew Shikiar, the Executive Director and CMO of the FIDO Alliance, who will provide details on a brand new initiative from FIDO that is focused on establishing a consumer logo – the I-Mark - for sites that are replacing passwords with simpler and safer means of user logins.The timing of our next guest, Dr. George Antoniou is amazing because just LAST WEEK he was awarded a U.S. Patent for a breakthrough innovation in identity access management utilizing the blockchain ecosystem to improve cybersecurity.We'll begin by hearing our guest's "origin stories" and learn about their "missions". Then, we'll cover the rationale to re-imagine passwords and identity management and share real-life stories of cybercrime answering three questions:1. What happened?2. What were the consequences?3. What were the lessons learned?We'll discuss the best practices regarding identity management and how to keep yourself safe while online.All of that and more on today's episode...  

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

 I recently spent time with my friend and songwriting partner Mark Irwin.  Mark is a hit country music songwriter in Nashville. He co-wrote Alan Jackson’s Here In The Real World which was nominated twice for Song of the Year by he Country Music Association. Mark also wrote the hit song Highway Don’t Care for Tim McGraw featuring Taylor Swift and Keith Urban among many others. Mark has been signed to multiple publishing deals throughout his songwriting career. Today we are talking about how to network and make a name for yourself and how to make connections as a songwriter in a music town.  We also talk about music publishers and the process of getting your foot in the door to get your songs heard so you can land a publishing deal if that is what you are looking for.Sponsors: Edenbrooke Productions - We offer consulting services and are offering listeners a 1-hour introductory special. To request more info on consulting services, email Marty at contact@johnmartinkeith.com.Mark Irwin - Show NotesNetworked by getting a job in a music venue and building relationships.I knew the songwriting business was in Nashville so I packed up and moved here.NSAI - Nashville Songwriter's Association International. They help connect songwriters with people in the industry.Networking and going to writer's shows and meeting people who are doing what you're doing is important.It takes time of focusing and writing everyday to build up the writing muscle.This is a relationship driven business. You find out about a lot of opportunities by building relationships with people.People blow opportunities and relationships because of ego or arroganceThe process of connecting with a publisher:Some people say take your best 2 or 3 songs and make elaborate demos. I think if you make a really good clean guitar or piano / vocal, then the song will sell itself. Then call places on your own. Find publishers willing to listen to outside (unsolicited) songs. Publishers will connect you with other writers and artists to write with and that helps build connections and is how I met Alan Jackson and co- wrote his first hit song "Here In The Real World." It takes a while to build this up, it's not overnight.You still have to work a job even if you get signed to a publisher at least for a while.Discipline yourself to make sure you are writing everyday and know why you moved to town to do music.I was still working when my first hit single was out.What's the purpose of moving from one publisher to another?Some publishers don't have the kind of money that is needed to support a writer where they can stop working a normal job. Having a song that is a hit helps open doors to meet with other publishers. Bigger publishers can sometimes pay a draw against future royalties that you can live on while you write for that publisher.When the person who signs you to a deal leaves and new people take over and you don't have a cut for a while then you get dropped from the roster. It's still a business.Usually when you're at a publisher and you have a decent relationship with them, you're going to stay as long as you can because it's hard to talk away from a catalog (Collection of songs you've written for the publisher). Usually if you leave a publisher it's because you got dropped.How long are you typically contracted to be with a publisher?They can be different but my first one was 18 months, then the company has the option to pick you up for another year or dropping you. Usually after that it's every year. They look at what they are paying you and any money coming in and decide if they want to keep going.How many songs do you have to write per year?Average is 12 songs by yourself or 24 if it's a 2 way co-write. But if your doing it every day you're going to write more than that.A publisher will usually give you 2 or 2 1/2 years to get something going.These days it's more writing with artists. It's harder to get outside songs cut meaning a song that the artist hasn't written. If you're aligned with an artist before they sign a deal you can get a publishing deal because you are writing with them when they sign a record deal.Putting a song "on hold" means an artist is seriously considering recording it and they ask you not to pitch it to anyone else during that time.What do you tell new songwriters that are coming into town trying to get their feet wet?Coming into town cold is a tough hill to climb but there's a lot of opportunities and people here willing to steer you. NSAI is a great organization for new artists. They set up meetings to play your songs for publishers. Join a (PRO) Performing Rights Organization - ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and meet songwriters at workshops, etc.Don't have a meeting with a publisher and present yourself until you have your best. You only have one chance to make a first impression. It really help if you have someone recommend you to get connected with a publisher.Someone at ASCAP made a couple of calls on my (Mark’s) behalf years ago and got me in to meet a publisher and I got a publishing deal because of that.There are a lot of ways to find champions in this town. Again it's about relationships.Taking meetings with a PRO helps and going to writer's rounds and try to get up there and play as much as possible and if you see somebody doing something that really gets to you, try to start up a relationship and ask about writing.No one's going to knock on your door and ask if you want to be a hit songwriter. You have to go out and make it happen. You have to be proactive.There are still opportunities and everyone wants to discover the next great songwriter.What happens to your song catalog when you leave one publisher and go to a new one?I still have the option to pitch the songs and the old publisher can as well. Or, if you can negotiate to own a portion of your publishing, then you can sell off you portion.When first starting out you will not get to co-own your publishing. They pay you a monthly draw to live on and the way you get paid if you have a single is through the PRO for performance (radio, tv, etc.) There is also mechanical (sales). Usually a publisher will re coup that draw through the mechanical (sales) and leave your PRO alone. At that point they own 100% of your publishing and you own 100% of your writer's share. So you split it 50/50.If you have hits and are doing well you can renegotiate and sign a new deal. You have the clout to ask for a co-pub deal, not just your writer's share. That has real value and another publisher will want to purchase that from you.It was 22 years between my (Mark’s) first number one and my second number one song.Then it was 5 weeks between my second and my third.It's in a publisher's best interests to keep pitching your catalog even if you're gone. But when they sign a new writer, that is their focus and it's hard to look back even if they're sitting on a great catalog of songs.You can hire an independent song plugger to pitch your songs for you and you pay them a percentage of your share of the song or you can pay them out of pocket.I (Mark) would rather give them a percentage (maybe 10% of the publishing and a cash bonus for every song you get cut.)The song plugger might ask for an upfront draw to go out an pitch on your behalf. Each one is different but you can negotiate the deal, especially if they really believe in your songs.Even if you're an independent writer and don't have a publishing deal and you own your publishing, you can hire somebody to pitch it. But you do need to register with a PRO (BMI, ASCAP or SESAC) because they are the ones collecting the money for you if you have a single out or on tv or performing live, etc.These days it's hard to get an outside song cut. There are a few writers still doing it but most of what you're hearing on country radio, the artist or the producer is connected to the song in some way.Sony Music Publishing has the clout to hook me up with young artists who are either signed to labels or they believe will be signed and trying to develop those relationships.Large publishers have more access to artists that are on a label than some smaller publishers do.Advice for writers:Don't get discouraged.Write and much as you can.The more you write, the better you get at it.Find an hour a day to write. Even to come up with a couple of lines.Wait until you really feel like you have something special before you take a meeting, especially with a publisher.You only have one chance to make a first impression.Don't just pitch one song. Anybody can get lucky with one song.For someone just starting out, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on elaborate demos. A clean guitar/vocal or piano/vocal is enough if you can perform it well.If you write more pop music where the track has to do with the feel, that's different.Listen and try to meet as many people possible who are writing. Inspiration comes from being impressed with somebody else's work.Get someone who is a great singer who is going to sell the song to record your demo and sound like the genre you’re in.As long the melody and lyric can be heard, I think that's the most important part.Don't be afraid to ask people if they want to write or if you can come in and play them songs because if you want to get things out of this world, you have to ask for them.No one’s going to give it to you. You have to ask.Don't be shy, make your presence known.  

It’s a real barn-burner tonight as we talk about Cats, Hogs, mobile games - good AND bad, the ongoing free sausage saga, cosplay, Try guys live and MUCH MUCH MORE! This may be our last show for a little bit and I (Mark) would love to thank both our very nice listeners and Whitney for what has been an incredible experience. A THING MARK HASN'T SEEN: Dragon Quest A THING WHITNEY HASN'T SEEN: Dragon Quest

Today’s MessageToday is a great day because we celebrate a transition in leadership that we believe reflects the promise and shepherding hand of God for our community. Today we shift the responsibilities of the pastoral team that I (Mark) have led. Today our District Supervisor (think bishop) will appoint pastors Vince and Lorissa to be the lead pastors at Faith and I will now serve as a member of their team.Therefore, today’s podcast is a bonus — 3 messages for the price of 1! There will be a general message from our District Supervisor, Fernando Castillo. Then there will be a personal charge to Vince and Lorissa (Pat and Mindy Crowder) and a charge to Faith Community (Pastor Mark)… Don’t skip today’s messages— they are not just for our community. The principles discussed today are relevant for everyone!Today’s Scriptures | Philippians 1.3-193 Every time I think of you, I give thanks to my God. 4 Whenever I pray, I make my requests for all of you with joy, 5 for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now. 6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.7 So it is right that I should feel as I do about all of you, for you have a special place in my heart. You share with me the special favor of God, both in my imprisonment and in defending and confirming the truth of the Good News. 8 God knows how much I love you and long for you with the tender compassion of Christ Jesus.9 I pray that your love will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in knowledge and understanding. 10 For I want you to understand what really matters, so that you may live pure and blameless lives until the day of Christ’s return. 11 May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation—the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ—for this will bring much glory and praise to God.12 And I want you to know, my dear brothers and sisters, that everything that has happened to me here has helped to spread the Good News. 13 For everyone here, including the whole palace guard, knows that I am in chains because of Christ. 14 And because of my imprisonment, most of the believers here have gained confidence and boldly speak God’s message without fear.15 It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. 16 They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. 17 Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. 18 But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice. 19 For I know that as you pray for me and the Spirit of Jesus Christ helps me, this will lead to my deliverance.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Dru Fess I Mark 1:16-20 I Mark 3:13-15 I John 14:15-21 I John 15:1-17 In week 2 of Discover Praxis, Dru shares our first core value as a community: Life With God. This teaching asks the question: why would these first century disciples give up their lives to follow Jesus? It also looks at four life postures that are disoriented when it comes to God: 1)life from God 2) life over God 3)life under God and life 4) life for God. In the end God through Jesus, by the Spirit, offers us life WITH him. For more information visit http://mypraxis.church

Dru Fess I Mark 1:16-20 I Mark 3:13-15 I John 14:15-21 I John 15:1-17 In week 2 of Discover Praxis, Dru shares our first core value as a community: Life With God. This teaching asks the question: why would these first century disciples give up their lives to follow Jesus? It also looks at four life postures that are disoriented when it comes to God: 1)life from God 2) life over God 3)life under God and life 4) life for God. In the end God through Jesus, by the Spirit, offers us life WITH him. For more information visit http://mypraxis.church

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Andy Couchman on Protection Review and the launch of the I Mark - MAF197 On the show this week, I talk Andy Couchman, co-founder of Protection Review. We chat about, how the Protection Review Conference, Dinner and Awards has grown to become one of the premiere financial services events of the year, and the new "I Mark" which seeks to recognise true innovation. Welcome to episode 197 of the Marketing and Finance Podcast. We chat about: How Andy started Protection Review with another financial services luminary, Peter Le Beau The process Andy goes through to write product reviews and how he scores them What innovation really means in financial services The reasoning behind the launch of the I Mark What companies will have to do to receive the I Mark. Who is Andy Couchman? Andy started his career in product marketing roles in various large UK financial services companies. After leaving corporate life he made a success writing about financial services topics. Together with Peter Le Beau he started Protection Review back in 2003. What started as a paper publication and an annual dinner has turned into a prestigious annual Conference, Dinner and Awards event and a popular website. Although he has retired from the day to day running of Protection Review, Andy still writes the reviews published each month. Links and Show Notes. For links to the books and apps mentioned, please visit http://rogeredwards.co.uk/MAF for the show notes. What is the Marketing and Finance (MAF) Podcast? The podcast for ideas and inspiration on marketing your business and growing your business, and for discussing topics on all things finance. I’m Roger Edwards, a marketing guy and keynote speaker from Edinburgh. Talk to me if you want to cut the BS and complexity from your marketing strategy. The MAF Podcast is a 30-minute radio show you download from http://rogeredwards.co.uk/MAF, iTunes or Spotify. Each week you'll hear interviews with business experts, marketers, entrepreneurs and journalists. Interviews to listen to in the car, on the train or on the treadmill. Or even in the bath! We talk about: How you can grow your business using content marketing and social media How you can keep your Marketing strategy and communications simple Topics, issues, products and business models from the world of finance You’ll take away one or two big ideas that you can apply to your business. So, you can keep marketing your business to keep growing your business. Please subscribe to the Podcast on iTunes and I’d be grateful if you would leave a review. http://rogeredwards.co.uk/itunes Fancy Appearing on the Show? Would you be interested in appearing on the MAF Podcast? Have you an exciting marketing or finance story to tell? Do you fancy drawing out some inspirational ideas that MAF listeners can take away to use in their own businesses? Do please contact me if you want to get involved. http://rogeredwards.co.uk

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

The Rebel, pt I - Mark 2.1-22 by Redeemer Church Podcast

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Matt Jones and Ray Daniel of Beam Suntory join the podcast to talk about Kentucky, Scotland, and Japanese whisky! Matt Jones recently took on the global whisky brand ambassador role for Beam Suntory in Canada, and Ran Daniel joins the bourbon portfolio that Matt Jones used to represent. We talk whisky: Note: Apologies for some of the audio issues. I (Mark) didn't notice a mic wasn't working.

Matt Jones and Ray Daniel of Beam Suntory join the podcast to talk about Kentucky, Scotland, and Japanese whisky! Matt Jones recently took on the global whisky brand ambassador role for Beam Suntory in Canada, and Ran Daniel joins the bourbon portfolio that Matt Jones used to represent. We talk whisky: Note: Apologies for some of the audio issues. I (Mark) didn't notice a mic wasn't working. Buy Mark's book - The Whisky Cabinet Special thanks to our sponsor: The State of Logic Podcast Follow Matt Jones on Instagram Follow Ray Daniels on Instagram This podcast was edited and mixed by Bryan Goman. The theme song is licensed in thanks to Alan Doyle! It's available on iTunes. Follow Jamie on Twitter and Instagram Follow Mark on Twitter and Instagram

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

After the success of discovering that Highlander was a much deeper movie than most people would expect, Bernardo, Gonzo, and I (Mark) decided to delve into the world of Legend for our next 80s Swordporn movie.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I Mark och Jonas podd delar Mark Levengood och Jonas Gardell med sig av stort och smått, roligt och allvarligt, aktuellt och hopplöst förlegat från sin värld och vardag. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I MARK 4, ETANT DONNES / MICHAEL GIRA

Mark continues with Part 2 of “Why I'm not a Jew, or am I?” Mark continues with principle number 5 of Maimonides' 13 principles of the Jewish faith. Listen to the explanation of each one and the Old and New Testament Scripture that verifies them.

Garbage Collection Language/Compiler design Function Types A discussion on whether a functions signature is a type, or not. During this discussion we talked about the implicit currying of haskell functions and how this could lead to run-time errors rather than compile errors, however whilst I (Mark) knew what I was talking about, I missed a fundamental part of the equation - function types include the return type, so a partially applied function that doesn’t fit a high-order function is a compile time error. So given two functions: someHof :: (String -> String) -> String take3StringsReturningString :: String -> String -> String -> String The first function someHof takes a function String -> String and returns a String, if we partially apply take3StringsReturningString "test" the resulting function is String -> String -> String which doesn’t match the required syntax of someHof so wouldn’t even compile.

Join Mark, Greg, and new co-host Peter as we discuss Language Productivity and Estimation. Productivity Using Scala will make you less productive - Is Productivity King? There are many more things in “development” which will lower your productivity than the language you eventually implement the solution in. I (Mark) think I made the comment I've never seen scala as being "a more productive language", but a more flexible, adaptable, etc. language which may lead to more productivity, but productivity is WAY more the sum of intangible parts of development How do you measure productivity in a language, and when should you expect to get results, e.g. 6 months, 1 year, 2 years - 5 years? Is there a correlation between small, modular, artifacts and static typing? does having a contract get better with smaller service ( even if generic type contracts ) Is static typing a fractal cost on your code base. The better you write your code the more cost you incur? Static typing suits large method and class as you pay the tax less times? How do you determine the productivity of a new language? Statically typed javascript (typescript) Estimation How does switching languages affect how you handle time estimates? How do you handle time estimates in general? (Mark) I’ve often seen it said rather than just estimate how long it will take, estimate how long it will take Person X to do it ( if they’re doing the work, taking into account things you know about their productivity/skill level/work load etc.) - you may know Clojure/Scala well, but with DevY is to do the work and not yet fully up to skill with the toolset..... Development estimates are only accurate if you are maintaining velocity. What error margin and corrective multiplier is reasonable? What methods of estimate generation are good? Planning poker can be slow, but can be a great method of generating estimates. Function Point Calculations as a confirmation guideline How far out do you estimate, and how does YAGNI play into this.

Matt and I were arguing about who would write this, but I (Mark) won…HA!  Its mine… All mine!  (I am doing the final edit … it’s mine (Matt)) Sibling rivalry is not simply when your children are competitive, it is when they bug each other senselessly and thus argue and thus annoying you, the parent.  We listened […]

Hey All, What if Jesus was Irish?  Guiness as the blood of Christ?  Ok so we got a bit irreverent… Matt talks about baby names.  Mark talks about ‘letting kids be kids’ and John did a combined topic/rant about takers/givers.  There were laughs all around in this Easter episode.  I (Mark) was actually visiting EF […]

After the longest time, were back. I (Mark) am now hosting it at my house which means that the podcast will actually go up within the next few days of it being made. /Lots of fun on this podcast topped off with a new segment, Roan Reads Things.