Podcasts about just economy

As a journalist, Nick Romeo has interviewed people doing remarkable things, from running worker-owned companies to redesigning gig work as public infrastructure. These experiences shaped his new book, The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, and led him to one big insight: a better economy isn't just possible—it's already here. In this episode, Nick and Dart talk about the difference between market wages and living wages, why mainstream economics underestimates people, and how everything from co-ops to experiments in building gig work platforms as public utilities are reimagining the role of work in society right now.Nick Romeo is a journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and The New York Times. He writes about policy, power, and the systems that shape how we live and work.In this episode, Dart and Nick discuss:- Why we need a new definition of a “living wage”- The power of co-ops, trusts, and employee ownership- How gig work can be redesigned to serve workers- What it means to design an economy around fairness- How ownership models shape the future of work- Why traditional economics misses what really matters- And other topics…Nick Romeo is a journalist and author who covers bold ideas in economics, policy, and philosophy. He's reported for The New Yorker on everything from Austria's job guarantee experiment to Spain's Mondragon cooperative and Nicholas Humphrey's theory of consciousness. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Rolling Stone, and Scientific American. He teaches at UC Berkeley's Graduate School of Journalism. His latest book, The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, offers a roadmap for a fairer, more sustainable economy. Praised by The Guardian as “enlightening and inspiring” and called “brisk and sensible” by The Washington Post, it showcases real-world models that are already changing how we think about work, wages, and ownership.Resources Mentioned:The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, by Nick Romeo: https://www.amazon.com/Alternative-How-Build-Just-Economy/dp/1541701593CORE Economics Project: https://www.core-econ.orgMIT Living Wage Calculator: https://livingwage.mit.edu/Well-Paid Maids: https://www.wellpaidmaids.com/Tax Justice Network: https://taxjustice.net/Connect with Nick:Website: https://www.nickromeowriter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-romeo-b4486393/ Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what's most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Banks can be a force for good. It's an idea that's greeted with skepticism in some circles, given the endless list of inequities and disasters perpetuated by our country's leading financial institutions. But if you're a Next City reader, the idea that financial institutions can be part of the solution isn't foreign, given our senior economic justice correspondent Oscar Perry Abello's in-depth coverage of community development financial institutions, credit unions, alternative lending practice and mission-driven banking.In his debut book, “The Banks We Deserve: Reclaiming Community Banking for a Just Economy,” Abello makes the case that it's time to shake up America's highly-concentrated banking system by shifting banking's power back to local institutions – thereby putting power back in the hands of local communities.“If we want to close the racial wealth gap, if we want to make these investments in clean energy and energy efficiency, if we want to make the investments in housing that people can actually afford, we cannot and should not be expecting big banks to come and do that,” he says. “They're not built to do it. We should go to the community-based model.”Listen to this episode to hear how Abello's new book demonstrates ways banks' money-creation power can be democratized. Helping communities tap into that power could address our climate, housing and economic crises.

Women in this country lag behind men according to most economic measures. Why this is and how to change it is the subject of the recent book "Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy" by Naomi Cahn, June Carbone, and Nancy Levit.

This week, we are joined once more by Astrid and Sarah from the Courage Campaign to discuss the book Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy. Listen to the first part of our discussion of this book as we discuss key takeaways, including the challenges of women in finance, the lack of unionization in STEM, and key case studies in pay equity and gender discrimination. Get in touch! Email us at podcast@womeninsciencepdx.org or follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or X.

In this episode, we dive into the systems, structures, and practices that are working against us. Because my goal isn't just that women (and I do mean all women) get a fair shake, but that we expect it. That we require it. Our guest is June Carbone, the Robina chair of law, science, and technology at the University of Minnesota Law School. Previously she served as the Edward A. Smith/Missouri chair of law, the constitution, and society at the University of Missouri at Kansas City; and as the associate dean for professional development and presidential professor of ethics and the common good at Santa Clara University School of Law. Basically, she's wicked smart and very well-researched. She has just released her new book Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy which she co-authored with two other incredible women. My call to action: consider, in addition to what you care most about and what you believe is best, what will move policy and opportunity forward for all women. It's time for us to think beyond just our own best interests. Buy June's Book: Fair Shake  https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Fair-Shake/Naomi-Cahn/9781982115128  Like what you heard? Please rate and review

I really think art is one of the most important things to help tackle issues and create social change. There's that quote from Maya Angelou that goes something like ‘people will forget what you say or do, but they'll never forget how you make them feel'. The power of art is to evoke feelings that stick with people and that's often what inspires people as well.Maggie Chang is a poet, writer, and artist whose environmental journey started in first grade when she learned about deforestation of the Amazon in school. Since then, Maggie has led campus secondhand clothing sales for sustainable fashion, organized a UN Sustainable Development Goal training, and helped establish EcoSchools Canada's Youth Advisory Council, leading her to be named one of the first WWF Canada Living Planet Leaders and a Top 25 Under 25 Environmentalist in Canada. With a Bachelor of Environmental Studies, Maggie served on the Natural Resources Canada Youth Council and practiced international solidarity with fairtrade, organic coffee communities with Café Femenino, Peru. Currently she works on building an intersectional environmental movement through art and activism and as co-chair of the City of Toronto Climate Advisory Group. I first met Maggie at the Trajectories for a Just Economy event organized by Foundation for Leadership, Imagination and Place (FLIP) where she was presenting her an exhibit of portraits of her peer BIPOC environmentalists, building on the work she did at the University of Waterloo on her undergraduate thesis, where her focus was on better racial inclusivity in the environmental field. I was impressed by her vitality and by that series of striking photographs of fellow IBPOC environmentalists and so wanted to know more about her views on art and science and life as a Gen Z eco-art activist:In terms of what this generation is feeling around environmental stuff, I heard from a sustainability intersectional environmentalism influencer who kind of coined the term, ‘green girl Leah' on Instagram, she said that studies have have shown that like millennials feel sort of a climate pessimism, but Gen Z feels climate doomism so that's definitely a really big challenge.Our conversation took place in a media studio of the Toronto Public Library, which Maggie kindly set up for us. It was good to be in a shared publicly accessible media studio while we spoke about the role of art and its relationship with environmental studies and other cross-sections. We also spoke about managing eco-grief: In the last maybe year or two, I had some very interesting reflections and experiences where I realized that I had a lot of grief within myself around that rupture of connection to land due to migration. When we think about it, everybody has a rupture in connection to land. So for me, it was because of migration, but for indigenous folks, it was because of the genocidal things that the Canadian government did.I was uplifted and energized by our conversation.Maggie is very hard working and a gifted environmentalist and artist. The world needs more art and science bridge builders like Maggie. I liked the way she weaves networks and considers them as a form of biodiversity. This type of resilience and vision is critical to our collective future, which is in the hands of Maggie and her peers:It's just like biodiversity. When you have a more biodiverse ecosystem, you have more redundancy that's built into it and so even when certain aspects of it are not as strong, you have these networks that can still fill into those spaces and it's just like with our community, when we strengthen our community and we create more connections between us, even when certain parts of the community maybe have a bad season or they have to slow down for a little bit, we can still create wonderful things because we have enough connections to fill in those gaps. Just like biodiversity, right?With thanks to the Toronto Public Library for use of the studio and to Maggie for her time. Maggies recommends the following publications and accounts:Green Dreamer (podcast) Green Girl Leah (Instagram)On Canada (Instagram)Art House TO (Instagram)Climate Justice TO (Instagram) *END NOTES FOR ALL EPISODESI've been producing the conscient podcast as a learning and unlearning journey since May 2020 on un-ceded Anishinaabe Algonquin territory (Ottawa). It's my way to give back and be present.In parallel with the production of the conscient podcast and it's francophone counterpart, balado conscient, I publish a Substack newsletter called ‘a calm presence' which are 'short, practical essays about collapse acceptance, adaptation, response and art'. To subscribe (free of charge) see https://acalmpresence.substack.com. You'll also find a podcast version of each a calm presence posting on Substack or one your favorite podcast player.Also, please note that a complete transcript of conscient podcast and balado conscient episodes from season 1 to 4 is available on the web version of this site (not available on podcast apps) here: https://conscient-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes.Your feedback is always welcome at claude@conscient.ca and/or on conscient podcast social media: Facebook, X, Instagram or Linkedin. I am grateful and accountable to the earth and the human labour that provided me with the privilege of producing this podcast, including the toxic materials and extractive processes behind the computers, recorders, transportation systems and infrastructure that made this production possible. Claude SchryerLatest update on July 20, 2024

Scientific Sense ® by Gill Eapen: Prof. Sharon Block is a Professor of Practice and Executive Director of the Center for Labor and a Just Economy at Harvard Law School. She has held key labor policy positions across the legislative and executive branches in both Obama and Biden administrations. Please subscribe to this channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/ScientificSense?sub_confirmation=1 --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scientificsense/support

Welcome to an interview with the authors of Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy, Naomi Cahn, June Carbone, and Nancy Levit. This book explains that the system that governs our economy—a winner-take-all economy—is the root cause of these myriad problems. The WTA economy self-selects for aggressive, cutthroat business tactics, which creates a feedback loop that sidelines women. The authors, three legal scholars, call this feedback loop “the triple bind”: if women don't compete on the same terms as men, they lose; if women do compete on the same terms as men, they're punished more harshly for their sharp elbows or actual misdeeds; and when women see that they can't win on the same terms as men, they take themselves out of the game (if they haven't been pushed out already). With odds like these stacked against them, it's no wonder women feel like, no matter how hard they work, they can't get ahead.   Naomi Cahn is the Justice Anthony M. Kennedy Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of Virginia School of Law, as well as the Co-Director of the Family Law Center. Cahn is the author or editor of numerous books written for both academic and trade publishers, including Red Families v. Blue Families and Homeward Bound. In 2017, Cahn received the Harry Krause Lifetime Achievement in Family Law Award from the University of Illinois College of Law and in 2024 she was inducted into the Clayton Alumni Hall of Fame.    June Carbone is the Robina Chair of Law, Science and Technology at the University of Minnesota Law School. Previously she has served as the Edward A. Smith/Missouri Chair of Law, the Constitution and Society at the University of Missouri at Kansas City; and as the Associate Dean for Professional Development and Presidential Professor of Ethics and the Common Good at Santa Clara University School of Law. She has written From Partners to Parents and co-written Red Families v. Blue Families; Marriage Markets; and Family Law. She is a co-editor of the International Survey of Family Law.   Nancy Levit is the Associate Dean for Faculty and holds a Curator's Professorship at the University of Missouri–Kansas City School of Law. Professor Levit has been voted Outstanding Professor of the Year five times by students and was profiled in Dean Michael Hunter Schwartz's book, What the Best Law Teachers Do. She has received the N.T. Veatch Award for Distinguished Research and Creative Activity and the Missouri Governor's Award for Teaching Excellence. She is the author of The Gender Line and co-author of Feminist Legal Theory; The Happy Lawyer; The Good Lawyer; and Jurisprudence—Classical and Contemporary.   Get Fair Shake here: https://rb.gy/r2q7rw   Here are some free gifts for you: Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies free download: www.firmsconsulting.com/OverallApproach   McKinsey & BCG winning resume free download: www.firmsconsulting.com/resumepdf   Enjoying this episode? Get access to sample advanced training episodes here: www.firmsconsulting.com/promo

Welcome to Strategy Skills episode 453, featuring an interview with the authors of Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy, Naomi Cahn, June Carbone, and Nancy Levit. This book explains that the system that governs our economy—a winner-take-all economy—is the root cause of these myriad problems. The WTA economy self-selects for aggressive, cutthroat business tactics, which creates a feedback loop that sidelines women. The authors, three legal scholars, call this feedback loop “the triple bind”: if women don't compete on the same terms as men, they lose; if women do compete on the same terms as men, they're punished more harshly for their sharp elbows or actual misdeeds; and when women see that they can't win on the same terms as men, they take themselves out of the game (if they haven't been pushed out already). With odds like these stacked against them, it's no wonder women feel like, no matter how hard they work, they can't get ahead.   Naomi Cahn is the Justice Anthony M. Kennedy Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of Virginia School of Law, as well as the Co-Director of the Family Law Center. Cahn is the author or editor of numerous books written for both academic and trade publishers, including Red Families v. Blue Families and Homeward Bound. In 2017, Cahn received the Harry Krause Lifetime Achievement in Family Law Award from the University of Illinois College of Law and in 2024 she was inducted into the Clayton Alumni Hall of Fame.    June Carbone is the Robina Chair of Law, Science and Technology at the University of Minnesota Law School. Previously she has served as the Edward A. Smith/Missouri Chair of Law, the Constitution and Society at the University of Missouri at Kansas City; and as the Associate Dean for Professional Development and Presidential Professor of Ethics and the Common Good at Santa Clara University School of Law. She has written From Partners to Parents and co-written Red Families v. Blue Families; Marriage Markets; and Family Law. She is a co-editor of the International Survey of Family Law.   Nancy Levit is the Associate Dean for Faculty and holds a Curator's Professorship at the University of Missouri–Kansas City School of Law. Professor Levit has been voted Outstanding Professor of the Year five times by students and was profiled in Dean Michael Hunter Schwartz's book, What the Best Law Teachers Do. She has received the N.T. Veatch Award for Distinguished Research and Creative Activity and the Missouri Governor's Award for Teaching Excellence. She is the author of The Gender Line and co-author of Feminist Legal Theory; The Happy Lawyer; The Good Lawyer; and Jurisprudence—Classical and Contemporary.   Get Fair Shake here: https://rb.gy/r2q7rw   Here are some free gifts for you: Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies free download: www.firmsconsulting.com/OverallApproach   McKinsey & BCG winning resume free download: www.firmsconsulting.com/resumepdf   Enjoying this episode? Get access to sample advanced training episodes here: www.firmsconsulting.com/promo

In this captivating FUTUREPROOF. episode, Jeremy dives deep with legal scholars Naomi Cahn, June Carbone, and Nancy Levit, authors of Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy.They discuss the systemic issues causing the stagnation of progress for women in the workforce, challenging old-fashioned sexism with a fresh perspective on workplace redesigns that inadvertently favor men. The conversation covers a wide array of topics including corporate policies, the impact of gender roles on career advancement, and innovative legal and societal strategies to combat these ingrained inequities. Through engaging dialogue and powerful insights, this episode sheds light on the necessity for systemic change to achieve gender parity in the workplace.

When June Carbone, Naomi Cahn and Nancy Levit set out to write a book about women in the workforce, they initially thought it would be a story all about women's march towards workplace equality. But when they looked at the data, they found something more disturbing: of the ways in which women's push toward workplace equality has actually been stalled for years. In today's episode, law professor June Carbone argues that the root of the problem lies in something they call the "winner take all" approach to business. That's the thesis of their new book, "Fair Shake: Women & the Fight to Build a Just Economy". Related episodes:What would it take to fix retirement? (Apple / Spotify) For sponsor-free episodes of The Indicator from Planet Money, subscribe to Planet Money+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Music by Drop Electric. Find us: TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Journalist Nick Romeo joins us to discuss his new book "The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy." Romeo argues that the conventional economic wisdom has fostered political and economic instability, resulting in widening inequality, environmental degradation, and the exploitation of workers. He also highlights innovative solutions and success stories—including worker cooperatives, public-option marketplaces, and job guarantee programs— that paint a picture of how we can design systems in a market economy that truly work for everyone. Nick Romeo is a journalist, critic, and essayist who has spent years covering policy and ideas for The New Yorker magazine. He also teaches at the Graduate School of Journalism at UC Berkeley. The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy The New Yorker: Nick Romeo Website: http://pitchforkeconomics.com Twitter: @PitchforkEcon Instagram: @pitchforkeconomics Nick's twitter: @NickHanauer

We're in the midst of unprecedented times, where corporations prioritize short-term profits over the long-term health of their organizations, clients, and employees. Wage and wealth gaps grow ever-larger, and a few billionaires hoard an obscene amount of money while more and more people struggle just to get by. The upcoming book Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy, which my guest June Carbone co-authored with Naomi Cahn and Nancy Levit, explores the history, politics, and legality of how we got to where we are today, the impact this system has on women and the quest for gender equality, and the efforts being made to reverse these trends. Explore what past and present corporate research can teach us about where we're headed:Where did our winner-take-all economy come from?How does this profits-first, people-last approach impact women?What is the triple bind befalling women leaders today?How do we start rebuilding a positive-sum economic culture of collectivism?Related Links:Pre-order ‘Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy' - https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fair-shake-naomi-cahn/1141652296?ean=9781982115128Banks with More Women on Their Boards Commit Less Fraud - https://hbr.org/2021/05/banks-with-more-women-on-their-boards-commit-less-fraudThe Nasdaq Stock Market LLC; Notice of Filing of Proposed Rule Change to AdoptListing Rules Related to Board Diversity - https://www.sec.gov/comments/sr-nasdaq-2020-081/srnasdaq2020081-8186013-227180.pdfConnect with June online - https://law.umn.edu/profiles/june-carboneEpisode 440: The Problem with Self-Help - https://www.bossedup.org/podcast/episode440Episode 444: Are Pay Transparency Laws Working? - https://www.bossedup.org/podcast/episode444Take Action with Bossed Up - https://www.bossedup.org/takeactionBossed Up Courage Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/927776673968737/Bossed Up LinkedIn Group - https://www.linkedin.com/groups/7071888/

Join Mark Erlich, the Wertheim Fellow at The Center for Labor and a Just Economy at Harvard Law School, for a thought-provoking episode as we discuss strategies for safeguarding worker integrity. We will explore what constitutes cheating, why it matters, and how roadblocks have made unethical practices less viable. Mark, author of The Way We Build: Restoring Dignity to Construction Work, will address open shop contractors' concerns about wage scales and explore the alliance of responsible contractors.

Join Nick Romeo on a deep dive into the transformative ideas shaping our economic future in this eye-opening episode. Explore the revolutionary concepts from his book, 'The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy,' discussing everything from the pitfalls of modern economic practices to innovative solutions like true pricing and participatory budgeting. Learn how integrating philosophy with economics can lead to more equitable and sustainable practices that benefit everyone. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersections of economy, justice, and sustainability. Subscribe for ad-free interviews and bonus episodes https://plus.acast.com/s/the-unmistakable-creative-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A stirring, comprehensive look at the state of women in the workforce--why women's progress has stalled, how our economy fosters unproductive competition, and how we can fix the system that holds women back. In an era of supposed great equality, women are still falling behind in the workplace. Even with more women in the workforce than in decades past, wage gaps continue to increase. It is the most educated women who have fallen the furthest behind. Blue-collar women hold the most insecure and badly paid jobs in our economy. And even as we celebrate high-profile representation--women on the board of Fortune 500 companies and our first female vice president--women have limited recourse when they experience harassment and discrimination. Fair Shake: Women and the Fight to Build a Just Economy (Simon & Schuster, 2023) explains that the system that governs our economy--a winner-take-all economy--is the root cause of these myriad problems. The WTA economy self-selects for aggressive, cutthroat business tactics, which creates a feedback loop that sidelines women. The authors, three legal scholars, call this feedback loop "the triple bind" if women don't compete on the same terms as men, they lose; if women do compete on the same terms as men, they're punished more harshly for their sharp elbows or actual misdeeds; and when women see that they can't win on the same terms as men, they take themselves out of the game (if they haven't been pushed out already). With odds like these stacked against them, it's no wonder women feel like, no matter how hard they work, they can't get ahead. Fair Shake is not a "fix the woman" book; it's a "fix the system" book. It not only diagnoses the problem of what's wrong with the modern economy, but shows how, with awareness and collective action, we can build a truly just economy for all. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/politics-and-polemics

Our current growth-based economic systems do not take into account their human cost, argues journalist Nick Romeo. And while there are economic initiatives and programs around the world that have been shown to improve local citizens' lives, these are few and far between. Yet they provide models, like “true price” initiatives — price tags that account for human labor costs and environmental impacts. Or job guarantee programs, which ensure every member of a community has access to employment. In Romeo's new book, “The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy,” he calls for the return of ethics into economics and offers examples around the world — as well as some in California. We'll talk to him about what works, what doesn't and what we have to gain if economists take an alternative approach to structuring, teaching and thinking about our economy. Guests: Nick Romeo, journalist, The New Yorker; lecturer, UC Berkeley

Scott Ferguson and Billy Saas speak with New Yorker writer Nick Romeo about his exciting new book, The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, released in January 2024 with Public Affairs. Romeo's The Alternative rebukes Margaret Thatcher's infamous axiom that “there is no alternative” to neoliberal capitalism. In doing so, the book inventories the most promising experiments in radical economic democracy underway across the world today. Such experiments include, but are not limited to: a publicly-owned and -run gig work platform in Long Beach, California; a True Price system in Amsterdam; a public budgeting project in Cascais, Portugal; and a public Job Guarantee in Gramatneusiedl, Austria. (See our previous episode on the Austrian Job Guarantee for a deeper dive into that topic) Taken together, these and other initiatives profiled in the book “share a vision of the economy as a place of moral action and accountability,” as Romeo puts it, while modeling the kind of radical political economic imagination that is so utterly and urgently needed to meet our dire ecological moment. For Romeo, then, it remains insufficient to simply deny Thatcher's quip that there is no alternative. The crucial task is to actively imagine and create the alternative.Visit our Patreon page here: https://www.patreon.com/MoLsuperstructureMusic by Nahneen Kula: www.nahneenkula.com

This week, a pair of studio conversations with the authors of recently published books. First, New Yorker writer Nick Romeo talks about his new book "The Alternative: How To Build a Just Economy" with Courtney Martin. It examines how people around the world are reshaping economies and businesses to be more equitable and ethical. Then, poet Kaveh Akbar talks with Corey Antonio Rose about his debut novel "Martyr". It centers around a young Iranian-born American coping with grief, addiction, and family drama.

Journalist and author Nick Romeo examines a portfolio of practical solutions to urgent economic problems, from decreasing wealth inequality to addressing the climate crisis and creating meaningful jobs highlighted in his new book "The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy." (00:09)Journalist Katherine Gammon shares why sand is being called “the new gold,” and how it's become the second most exploited natural resource in the world after fresh water. (21:13)Parker Norstrand and Abby Flack highlight how athletes can complete a day's worth of race training in 20 minutes at a new local business — Sim.Sports Arena. (34:41)

Our current economic structure is not working, and more people seem to be realizing it with each passing year. Nick Romeo, New Yorker writer and UC Berkley professor, has a new book out now entitled The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy. Danielle spoke with him about what a "just economy" means, and the imagination and shared sense of responsibility it will take to accomplish it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As the world continues to confront inhumane levels of poverty, widening inequality, and environmental degradation, a growing number of individuals, including academics, business owners, and policy entrepreneurs, are calling for a new moral economy. These leaders are rejecting the conventional economic myths that free markets are more efficient and that enormous inequalities are unavoidable; instead, they're embracing ethical and socially responsible economic models that prioritize moral action and accountability. In his new book, “The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy,” author and academic Nick Romeo explores this paradigm shift in economic thinking, challenging prevailing notions perpetuated by some economists and business leaders. He shares compelling stories of these new innovative approaches, including businesses organized as purpose trusts, venture capital funds addressing wealth inequality and climate change, Oslo's successful climate budgeting program, Portugal's democratic budget decisions, worker-owned cooperatives fostering innovation, and public-sector initiatives providing protections for gig workers. “The Alternative” presents a vision of economies that are more equal, just, and livable, showcasing real-world examples of success. Ultimately, it challenges the prevailing narrative and offers a glimpse into a viable alternative economic system. In this conversation — which took place on January 24, 2024 — we hear Nick Romeo and moderator Maureen Conway (Vice President, The Aspen Institute; Executive Director, Economic Opportunities Program) discuss his new book and invite guests to imagine what a more humane economy could be. For more information about this event — including video, audio, photos, speaker bios, and additional resources — visit: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/events/the-alternative-how-to-build-a-just-economy-a-book-talk-with-nick-romeo/ To purchase “The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy,” visit: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/nick-romeo/the-alternative/9781541701618/

Subscribe to The Realignment to access our exclusive Q&A episodes and support the show: https://realignment.supercast.com/REALIGNMENT NEWSLETTER: https://therealignment.substack.com/PURCHASE BOOKS AT OUR BOOKSHOP: https://bookshop.org/shop/therealignmentEmail Us: realignmentpod@gmail.comFoundation for American Innovation: https://www.thefai.org/posts/lincoln-becomes-faiNick Romeo, New Yorker writer and author of The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, joins The Realignment. Marshall and Nick discuss the outdated nature of many of the dogmas preached by modern economists, the growing number of new approaches aimed at reshaping economic outcomes, the importance of "political economy," and the opportunity to provide an alternative to a stagnating status quo. 

EPISODE 1931: In this KEEN ON show, Andrew talks to Nick Romeo, author of THE ALTERNATIVE, about how to build a just economyNick Romeo is a journalist, critic, and essayist. His new book, The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy (forthcoming January 2024 from PublicAffairs and Basic Books), uses extensive original reporting to provide a road map for a sustainable and survivable twenty-first-century economy. He has spent years covering policy and ideas for The New Yorker magazine, where he has explored the neuropsychologist Nicholas Humphrey's novel theory of consciousness, reported on the world's largest worker-owned cooperative in Mondragon, Spain, and examined a job guarantee experiment outside of Vienna, Austria. Nick has contributed front page breaking news stories, profiles, and essays to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Scientific American, The Atlantic, Rolling Stone, The New Republic, and many other venues. His work ranges from reports on the refugee crisis in Greece to the privatization of archaeological resources in the American southwest to a profile of the Nobel laureate Kazuo Ishiguro. He has reviewed dozens of books and has published on the history of the novel, Plato and behavioral economics, and the purpose of education. Nick holds a BA from Northwestern University, as well as an MFA in fiction and an MA in ancient Greek philosophy from the University of Colorado, Boulder. He teaches in the Graduate School of Journalism at UC Berkeley. Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting KEEN ON, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy show. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.

Dr. Sisi Hu is a labor economist with a Ph.D. from the University of Oxford and postdoctoral training at Harvard Law School's Center for Labor and a Just Economy and the National Bureau of Economic Research. She specializes in modeling disruption and risks in labor markets, and is passionate about protecting the welfare of workers in the healthcare industry.  In her spare time, Sisi loves traveling, painting and salsa dancing.sisi@atalantech.comTiffany Chan, MA managed an engineering and applied sciences research center at Harvard University for years prior to attending Yale University for graduate studies in policy. She has additional experience consulting with the World Bank and Microsoft. She hopes to move the needle on this urgent issue of clinician well-being and retention through innovation-led policy changes. In her spare time, Tiffany loves training for triathlons and cooking for her family and friends.tiffany@atalantech.comNational Bureau of Economic Research paper “Beyond Burnout: from Measuring to Forecasting" co-authored with Harvard Prof. Richard B Freeman that's referenced in the show: https://www.nber.org/papers/w30895 Learn more about Atalan Tech on LinkedIn or visit www.atalantech.com.Thanks for tuning in! Check out more episodes of The Well-Being Connector Podcast at www.forphysicianwellbeing.org/podcast.

o The title• Hebrew: Vay-yikra, "and he called" or torat kohanim, "instructions for the priests" or "instructions of/by thepriests"• Greek: exodus Levitikon, which is related to the Hebrew Levi, the tribe of the priestso Outline• The Lord's instructions for the priests (chaps. 1–16)• The priests' instructions to the people (chaps. 17–27)THE LORD'S INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE PRIESTS (CHAPS. 1–16) o The Sacrifices (chaps.1–7)Ø burnt offering ('olah) (ch 1)Ø grain offering (minhah) (ch 2) Ø peace offering (shelamim) (ch 3) Ø sin offering (hatta't) (ch 4)Ø guilt offering ('asham) (ch 5)o The Priesthood (chaps.8–10)o Duties of Purification (chaps.11–15) o The Day of Atonement (chap.16)THE PRIESTS' INSTRUCTIONS TO THE PEOPLE (CHAPS. 19–24) o Holy Worship (chap.17)o Holy Sexual & Family Relationships (chaps.18 & 20) o Holy Laws (chap.19)o Holy Priests & Sacrifices (chaps.21–22)o Holy Times (chap.23o Holy Lampstand & Holy Bread in the Holy Place (chap.24) o Holy (&Just) Economy (chap.25)o Obedience & Disobedience (chap.26)o Holy Vows (chap.27)

Vonda leads the Global Capital Strategies initiative, at the Center for Labor & a Just Economy at Harvard Law School, focusing on financial strategies in service of labor and human rights, and a just transition to a low carbon economy. She also supports the Capital Strategies for a Common Good initiative, researching ties between movements for workers' rights, environmental justice, and racial justice. Prior to joining CLJE, she led the Just Transition project and co-founded the Trustee Leadership Forum for Retirement Security (TLF) at the Initiative for Responsible Investment at the Harvard Kennedy School. Before her work at Harvard, Vonda was the Director of the Capital Stewardship Program at Service Employees International Union (SEIU), which was created to engage the capital markets and financial institutions in innovative ways. Prior to her time with SEIU, Vonda worked as a community organizer in Chicago, New York, and Boston with the Industrial Areas Foundation. She earned her B.A. from Calvin College and A.M. in Public Policy from the University of Chicago.

Bloomberg Washington Correspondent Joe Mathieu delivers insight and analysis on the latest headlines from the White House and Capitol Hill, including conversations with influential lawmakers and key figures in politics and policy.On this edition, Joe speaks with: Democrat Rep. from Michigan's 8th district & Chief Deputy Whip Dan Kildee discusses the President's visit to the UAW picket line and efforts to avoid a government shutdown. Bloomberg Politics Contributor Rick Davis and Rokk Solutions Vice President Alvin Jordan on the optics of a sitting president visiting a picket line and the pressure being put on Senator Bob Menendez to resign. Center for Labor and a Just Economy at Harvard Law Professor of Practice, Executive Director, & former member of the National Labor Relations Board Sharon Block says President Biden supports both the UAW and automakers. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Terri Gerstein, fellow at the Center for Labor and a Just Economy at Harvard Law School and the Economic Policy Institute, talks about the recent changes to child labor laws around the country and why a loosening of those laws may be harmful to children.

Amicus is sponsored by Betterhelp. The Supreme Court of the United States got back into the swing of things its first week back after New Years, with a case about cement workers and the rights of organized labor. The “swing” the court was getting “back into” with this case was potential precedent-busting. Dahlia Lithwick is joined on this week's show by Terri Gerstein, director of Harvard Law School's Center for Labor and a Just Economy, to discuss what this case could mean for worker's rights, and for democracy more broadly.  Next, Dahlia is joined by Brad Meltzer, a serial best selling author of so many kinds of books. This week Brad has two books coming out, I Am John Lewis for the kids, and The Nazi Conspiracy - The Secret Plot to Kill Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill. Brad and Dahlia discuss legal writing, book bans, and what these two seemingly very different books have in common.  In this week's Amicus Plus segment, Dahlia is joined by Slate's Mark Joseph Stern for an update on abortion legislation at the state and national level. They discuss the smoke and mirrors of the new republican house majority's “Born Alive” Bill, and the devastating fallout if Virginia's 15 week ban gets passed.  Sign up for Slate Plus now to listen and support our show.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Amicus is sponsored by Betterhelp. The Supreme Court of the United States got back into the swing of things its first week back after New Years, with a case about cement workers and the rights of organized labor. The “swing” the court was getting “back into” with this case was potential precedent-busting. Dahlia Lithwick is joined on this week's show by Terri Gerstein, director of Harvard Law School's Center for Labor and a Just Economy, to discuss what this case could mean for worker's rights, and for democracy more broadly.  Next, Dahlia is joined by Brad Meltzer, a serial best selling author of so many kinds of books. This week Brad has two books coming out, I Am John Lewis for the kids, and The Nazi Conspiracy - The Secret Plot to Kill Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill. Brad and Dahlia discuss legal writing, book bans, and what these two seemingly very different books have in common.  In this week's Amicus Plus segment, Dahlia is joined by Slate's Mark Joseph Stern for an update on abortion legislation at the state and national level. They discuss the smoke and mirrors of the new republican house majority's “Born Alive” Bill, and the devastating fallout if Virginia's 15 week ban gets passed.  Sign up for Slate Plus now to listen and support our show.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Amicus is sponsored by Betterhelp. The Supreme Court of the United States got back into the swing of things its first week back after New Years, with a case about cement workers and the rights of organized labor. The “swing” the court was getting “back into” with this case was potential precedent-busting. Dahlia Lithwick is joined on this week's show by Terri Gerstein, director of Harvard Law School's Center for Labor and a Just Economy, to discuss what this case could mean for worker's rights, and for democracy more broadly.  Next, Dahlia is joined by Brad Meltzer, a serial best selling author of so many kinds of books. This week Brad has two books coming out, I Am John Lewis for the kids, and The Nazi Conspiracy - The Secret Plot to Kill Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill. Brad and Dahlia discuss legal writing, book bans, and what these two seemingly very different books have in common.  In this week's Amicus Plus segment, Dahlia is joined by Slate's Mark Joseph Stern for an update on abortion legislation at the state and national level. They discuss the smoke and mirrors of the new republican house majority's “Born Alive” Bill, and the devastating fallout if Virginia's 15 week ban gets passed.  Sign up for Slate Plus now to listen and support our show.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Who has the power to end homelessness in Los Angeles? You do – by voting for Measure ULA on the November ballot. We discuss 5 Ways ULA Will Help End Homelessness” on this week's edition of What's Next, Los Angeles?My guests are Laura Raymond, co-chair of the ULA campaign and is executive director of ACT-LA, and Maria Patiño Gutierrez, director of Policy and Research/Equitable Development for SAJE-Strategic Actions for a Just Economy.United to House LA website: https://unitedtohousela.com//LA Times endorsement of ULA: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-10-04/endorsement-yes-on-proposition-ula

Charlice Hurst, Ph.D. is an assistant professor at the University of Notre Dame's Mendoza College of Business. Dr. Hurst teaches social entrepreneurship and social innovation. Her current research focuses on how to build an equitable workplace in the context of rapid changes to the economy and workplace. Dr. Hurt is also a co-developer of the Just Wage Framework and Tool, which consists of a set of seven criteria for determining the justness of a wage. The tool and framework are designed to encourage robust, cross-sector conversations about what truly constitutes a fair wage and how to extend fair wages to all workers. This talk was from our 2021 Fall Symposium where we discussed the area of work-life challenges and integration in the context of COVID. Dr. Hurst spoke on the important topic, "Designing Flexible Work to Create a Just Economy for Black and Latinx Women." Resources: Just Wage Framework and Tool: https://socialconcerns.nd.edu/higgins-labor-program/just-wage-tool#:~:text=The%20Just%20Wage%20Framework%20%26%20Tool,more%20just%20economy%20for%20all. All of our Fall Symposium talks are available at: https://www.ohsu.edu/oregon-institute-occupational-health-sciences/work-life-challenges-and-integration-context-covid Save-the-date for our 2022 Spring Symposium on Friday, June 3rd "From the Great Resignation to the Great Reconfiguration: Connecting research and practice." Visit: https://www.ohsu.edu/oregon-institute-occupational-health-sciences/training-and-symposia --- Episode information: What's Work Got to Do With Designing Flexible Work and Pay Equity for Black and Latinx Women? Guest: Dr. Charlice Hurst, PhD Introductions: Helen Schuckers, MPH and Leslie Hammer, PhD Produced and edited by: Helen Schuckers, MPH Music by: Sam Greenspan, MPH Connect with us Oregon Institute of Occupational Health Sciences and Oregon Healthy Workforce Center on social media: Twitter: twitter.com/OHSUOccHealth Facebook: www.facebook.com/occhealthsci.ohsu LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/occhealthsci Blog: blogs.ohsu.edu/occupational-health-sciences/ Community feedback is important to us. If you love our podcast and want to further support our podcast, please consider leaving us a 5 star review. Thank you!

We go to India and Thailand to talk about intimate personal care services that take place in people's homes. Advocates and researchers explain how technology is affecting personal care workers who are already low wage, precarious and exploited. Clients expect 'emotional labor' from these women but there are big risks of gender-based violence that platforms may exacerbate. Guests:  Kriangsak Teerawitkajorn, Just Economy and Labour Institute (JELI); Khawla Zainab, IT for Change About The Gig is about the women and men who work in the so-called 'gig economy' worldwide. They find work through online platforms, and will tell us why we all need to be concerned about the real future of work. Following The Gig Podcast's successful launch of Season 1, host and executive producer Bama Athreya is back with Season 2 focusing on gig workers in the care economy. For Season 2, The Gig Podcast is partnering with fellow Labor Radio Podcast Network member Evan Papp of Empathy Media Lab to support the production of the new series. Learn more at: https://www.empathymedialab.com/thegigpodcast #LaborRadioPod #EmpathyMediaLab #1U #UnionStrong #Labor #Union

We discuss the "9 Commandments for a Just Economy" recently out of Rome., with author and scholar John Horvat II. We discuss the strange things in there and what is missing. “9 Commandments for a Just Economy” Forgets the First One Reclaiming Catholic Social Teaching Return to Order Rerum Novarum

SUMMARY Recovery from COVID-19 provides remarkable opportunities for transition to a just and green economy that would ultimately boost universal mental health. Policy professionals Trish Hennessy (Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives) and Arden Henley (Green Technology Education Centre) talk about transformative concepts such as ‘doughnut economics', ‘well-being budget', ‘inclusive economy', and the ‘three-sided coin'. They also explore how lessons learned about mental health during the pandemic, can guide economic reform while informing solutions to other global challenges, such as systemic racism and climate change. TAKEAWAYS This podcast will help you understand: Role of policy in economic reform that supports social, environmental, and economic well-being Link between policy and mental health Role of all levels of government in the move toward a just and green economy that fosters mental health at all scales Alternative Federal Budget (Recovery Plan 2020) Rebuilding BC: A Portfolio of Possibilities Social solutions within a green economy; environmental solutions within a just economy Challenges such as systemic racism, poverty, and inequality in a market economy vs. solutions in a just and green economy Potential for positive change using emerging concepts such as ‘doughnut economics', ‘well-being budget', ‘inclusive economy', and the ‘three-sided coin' Economic reform and the World Health Organization Sustainable Development Goals How lessons learned about mental health during the pandemic can guide economic reform while informing solutions to other global challenges such as systemic racism and climate change Upstream approach to economic reform that supports universal mental health   SPONSOR The Social Planning & Research Council of British Columbia (SPARC BC) is a leader in applied social research, social policy analysis, and community development approaches to social justice. Lorraine Copas and her great team support the council's 16,000 members, and work with communities to build a just and healthy society for all. THANK YOU for supporting the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Summit and the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Podcast.   RESOURCES Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives Think Upstream Seth Klein (The Good War) The Leap Well-Being Budget Rebuilding BC The Spiritual Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett A Roadmap to a Renaissance Amsterdam City Doughnut   GUESTS  Trish Hennessy Trish Hennessy is a senior communications strategist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA) and director of Think Upstream, a project dedicated to policy solutions that foster a healthy society and community well-being. She is focused on the social determinants of health, sustainable development goals, income inequality, decent work, and an inclusive economy. Trish was the founding director of the CCPA Ontario, a progressive think tank that focuses on provincial and municipal social justice and economic issues. She co-founded the Ontario Living Wage Network. She was the founding director of the CCPA national office's growing gap project, which began in 2006. Trish was a former newspaper journalist, originally from Saskatchewan but now lives in Toronto. She has a B.A. Sociology from Queen's University, a B.S.W. from Carleton University, and an M.A. in Sociology from OISE/University of Toronto.  Email: trish@policyalternatives.ca Website: www.thinkupstream.ca Phone: 613-563-1341 (323) Facebook:  www.facebook.com/upstreamAction Twitter: www.twitter.com/UpstreamAction Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/trish-hennessy-25b9395/   Arden Henley Arden Henley is founding board chair of British Columbia's Green Technology Education Centre. He is a former Vice President of City University in Canada, and one of the founders of its Masters of Counselling program. He has a BA from McMaster, an MA from Duquesne in Pittsburgh, and a Doctorate in Education Leadership from SFU. Arden is also an Honorary Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine. Well known for his innovative leadership style and thought-provoking presentations, Arden consulted broadly with community and government agencies, and practiced family therapy and organizational development for more than 40 years. These experiences are outlined in his book, entitled Social Architecture: Notes & Essays.  Website: www.gteccanada.ca  Email: nwpses@gmail.com  Phone: 604.317.4128 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rc-arden-henley-977752122/?originalSubdomain=ca   HOST Jo de Vries is a community education and engagement specialist with 30 years of experience helping local governments in British Columbia connect with their citizens about important sustainability issues. In 2006, she established the Fresh Outlook Foundation (FOF) to “inspire community conversations for sustainable change.” FOF's highly acclaimed events include Building SustainABLE Communities conferences, Reel Change SustainAbility Film Fest, Eco-Blast Kids' Camps, CommUnity Innovation Lab, Breakfast of Champions, and Women 4 SustainAbility. FOF's newest ventures are the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Summit and HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Podcast. Website: Fresh Outlook Foundation Phone: 250-300-8797   PLAY IT FORWARD The move toward a just and green recovery economy becomes possible as more people learn about its social, cultural, spiritual, environmental, and economic benefits. To that end, please share this podcast with anyone who has an interest or stake in the future of mental health for individuals, families, workplaces, or communities. FOLLOW US For more information about the Fresh Outlook Foundation (FOF) and our programs and events, visit our website, sign up for our newsletter, and like us on Facebook and Twitter.   HELP US As a charity, FOF relies on support from grants, sponsors, and donors to continue its valuable work. If you benefited from the podcast, please help fund future episodes by making a one-time or monthly donation. Trish Hennessy, Arden Henley Interview Transcript You can download a pdf of the transcript here. The entire transcript is also found below: RICK  0:10 Welcome to the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Podcast. Join our host Jo de Vries with the Fresh Outlook Foundation, as she combines science with storytelling to explore a variety of mental health issues with people from all walks of life. Stay tuned! JO  0:32 Hey, Jo here! Thanks for joining me with my two guests as we explore the emerging economics of mental health, prompted by COVID-19, and how we can mobilize a just and green recovery that enhances well-being for all Canadians. But first, a huge shout out to a major podcast sponsor, the Social Planning and Research Council of British Columbia. SPARC BC is a leader in applied social research, social policy analysis, and community development approaches to social justice, and works with communities of all sizes to build, a just and healthy society for all. Thank you for supporting the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Podcast and the HEADS UP! Community Mental Health Summit. For more info about the summit, visit us at freshoutlookfoundation.org. Our guests today are both passionate big-picture thinkers with innovative insights and ideas about the need for economic reform as we adjust to our post-pandemic reality. Trish Hennessy is director of Think Upstream, an initiative of the Canadian Center for Policy alternatives. A former journalist, Trish earned a bachelor's degree in social work, and bachelor's and master's degrees in sociology. Her work focuses on the social determinants of health, sustainable development goals, decent work and income, equality, an inclusive economy, and well-being budgeting. Welcome, Trish, it's so great to have you here. TRISH  2:09 Great to be here. JO  2:10 Before we get into the discussion about the link between mental health and economy, can you tell us a little bit about the Canadian Centre for Policy alternatives?  TRISH  2:22 Absolutely. We're an independent, nonpartisan think tank that has been advancing policy solutions to promote greater equality, social inclusion, as well as social and economic resilience and sustainability. I work out of the national office, which is based in Ottawa, and the national office is actually celebrating its 40th anniversary this year…we're one of the older think tanks. We also have offices in BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, and Ontario… I founded the Ontario office in 2012. Those offices focus on provincial and municipal issues, whereas the national office tends to focus on national issues. Sometimes we go into sub-national as well. JO  3:06 So how much of the work you do relates to mental health? TRISH  3:09 I think mental health and physical health are deeply intertwined, and the pathways toward improved mental and physical health include access to adequate income, to decent work, to an inclusive economy, to an economy that leaves no one behind and that protects the health and well-being of both our people and our planet. So, all of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternative's work intersects on that front... is kind of like the hip bone's connected to the leg bone. If you leave one of those things out, you have worsening mental and physical health outcomes. So, we look at those social determinants of physical and mental health. JO  3:50 When we spoke to prepare for this podcast, you said that policy is "behind everything that shapes our world." Now, I'm sure that, as a policy wonk, you can elaborate on that. First, what is policy? And why is it important for us moving forward toward better mental health? TRISH  4:11 Year in and year out, governments at every jurisdictional level... whether it's local, provincial, or federal... make decisions and policies that affect our lives, for good and for bad. [In 2020], for example, [we saw] the federal government make a series of rapid policy decisions in the face of COVID-19 to create income security programs to try to soften the blow for the millions of workers who lost their job or their working hours due to the necessary economic lockdown in the spring [of 2020]. The government quickly realized that its previous policy for unemployed workers... the unemployment insurance system... wasn't designed for a moment of mass unemployment like we experienced at that beginning of the global pandemic. And we're still experiencing a lot of unemployment when you compare it historically. So, the federal government created CERB, the Canadian Emergency Response Benefit, and it's like a form of income guarantee for those who couldn't work at the start of the economic pause, so that we could all shelter down and give public health officials a chance to implement policies to try to get ahead of the virus, and limit the spread, and make sure that our hospitals weren't surged to beyond capacity. And that is about as dramatic an example as you can get for how governments make policies that, in this case, save millions of people's lives in Canada. And it's so important because the number-one job of any government at any jurisdictional level is to protect public well-being. And governments don't always live up to that task, but governments who succeed use wise and strategic policies to get there. JO  5:53 What types of policies affect public health in general, and mental health in particular? TRISH  5:59 Public health is like this great invisible infrastructure of experts and health care experts, whose number-one job is prevention. They promote vaccines to prevent people from getting the chicken pox or the flu. They promote safe consumption sites to prevent even more deaths in the opioid crisis that's rippled across Canada. Because we are living in the age of a global pandemic, they promote policies to protect the public. Public health officials are usually rarely visible, but now they're hugely visible. We see them on the daily news advising us to physically distance, to wear masks when we can't physically distance, to wash your hands, to protect ourselves against COVID-19. But the meat and potatoes of their work in a pandemic still kind of remains invisible. They're tracking the epidemiology of the virus, they're contact tracing, they're following up with those who are infected with COVID-19… and a lot of that isn't in front of the public eye. And yet that invisible work is what saves lives and what guides government policies to either reopen the economy or, like what's happening in Toronto where I live, to return to a modified stage two. We can't eat indoors in restaurants, the bars are closing, the gyms are closing, all to avoid swamping our hospital system, because there's a disconcerting rise in COVID cases here and in other places in Ontario, as well. And so that's public health, quietly in the background, trying to keep the wheels on the bus. JO  7:35 What about the mental health meat in all of that? TRISH  7:38 In terms of mental health policies, I think we have a long way to go to get to that preventative phase of mental health issues. Most of the policies that are in place are there to help you after you've developed a mental health issue, and even then those policies are inadequate to the task... we treat the symptoms downstream. A lot of people don't have access to mental health services. Many people can't afford them. They can't afford to go to the private market, and the public sector has not created a robust plan here. I'm actually hoping that the pandemic is the push that our governments need to invest in a national mental health plan. It's something that the federal government has promised to do in its recent throne speech. It's a long time coming. And I think with COVID-19, we're going to see a rise in mental health issues and anxieties, depression, agoraphobia for people who are going to be afraid to go out after staying sheltered for so long. And so, we're still at the baby stages of a mental health system that is more upstream in nature and that prevents things that get to the root of mental health issues. JO  8:52 I know we don't have any details, or either a firm commitment for a national mental health plan, but what might that look like to you? TRISH  9:01 A national mental health plan for me would look like what a national dental plan should look like, too, because it's in the same boat. We don't have a holistic, universal public health system right now. You can get treated if you break a bone in your arm or your leg... you can walk right into a hospital and they'll fix you up. But you can't necessarily get treated if you've got something wrong with your teeth, or if you're in emotional distress. And so, it would be a coherent, coordinated plan, where just like I can walk into my family doctor to talk about an infection that I have, I would be able to walk into a mental health facility and immediately access counseling. But that's still addressing an [existing] mental health issue. A really upstream mental health national plan would look at those social determinants of health. There's just tons of research that shows that if people have adequate access to safe and clean and affordable housing, if they have food security, if parents have access to affordable, high-quality childcare... all of these are supports that take a lot of the pressure off of a household. And they can influence the amount of mental health issues that are out there. When we think about mental health, we tend to think about what you personally can do to work through a depression or through anxiety. But it's so interrelated with everything else, like how we live, and whether we're poor, whether we're scrounging to earn next month's rent and worried about getting evicted, which many people in the middle of this pandemic are worried about. So, thinking about health in all policies, not just a mental health plan, but every federal ministry, every provincial ministry, would look across all of their departments and ask what investments would actually fuel greater mental health? And it's a holistic approach. It's big. JO  11:03 Are there any countries actually doing this kind of massive policy change and implementation of great programs like what you're discussing? TRISH  11:14 I'm really inspired these days by New Zealand. The Prime Minister of New Zealand has basically said GDP growth isn't your measure of success, because if you don't have public well-being, then it's failure. And so, in New Zealand, they're investing in well-being budgeting, and that includes investing in mental health initiatives, investing in inclusion and empowerment of indigenous communities, investing in climate change interventions, because if you don't have a healthy climate, you can't even have a healthy economy. So, she's kind of flipping the conversation where I think, for far too long and certainly in Canada, we have politicians who look at the job growth [and say] we're doing great. But the questions I asked are: Is that job growth part-time, crappy wages, where you don't even earn a living wage? Is every job that we're creating a good job that has a living wage that is not precarious, where you can actually plan for a future where you might have benefits at work in case you get sick… if you need prescription drugs? Those sort of things. That is a worldview that is counter to just looking at GDP growth and job growth. It's not asking how big is the growth, what's the percentage? It's asking about who's impacted by that? And are we lifting everyone up? JO  12:44 For each of the past 25 years, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives has released an Alternative Federal Budget. These what-if exercises outline what the federal government could do differently to ensure and integrate social, environmental, and economic well-being. This year's Alternative Federal Budget is called ‘A Recovery Plan' that closes the chapter on the old normal, because it says the status quo after COVID-19 is no longer an option. "This is our chance to bend the curve of public policy toward justice, well-being, solidarity, equity, resilience, and sustainability." The plan goes on to say that economic issues can't be disconnected from everything else, and promotes a health-in-all-policies approach, "because if this pandemic has taught us anything, it's that public health is the requirement for economic health." So, Trish, in keeping with these quotes, tell us about the key principles and recommendations outlined in your recovery plan. TRISH  13:56 As we were writing that recovery plan, it wasn't lost on us that it's the 25th anniversary of the Alternative Federal Budget that we've been putting out every year that the federal government could take up to reduce income inequality, to battle climate change, etc. So, our recovery plan, it's like a weighty document… it's 200 pages long. We work with civil society organizations from across Canada, they help inform this document. So, obviously, I can't tell you everything in it because it's quite a commitment. But the key principles are we're advancing income security, and that to me is the core role of public policy. It's to ensure that those who are getting left behind by an economy that has been growing, but the benefits of economic growth have been growing disproportionately to those who are at the highest end of the income ladder, while more and more people are getting left behind. We promote income security for the unemployed, for people who can't get into the labour market, and we promote ideas of income adequacy as well. And if you look provincially, anyone on social assistance is trapped in poverty. Social assistance is hugely inadequate, and we think that has to be addressed. We look for income security and income adequacy, but we also look at four supports for households and individuals. I was just saying earlier about the social determinants of health, affordable housing, food security, and affordable, universal public childcare. All of these are key to helping people not only survive, but to thrive, and no full economic recovery is possible without these things, and especially with childcare, since right now, in the middle of this pandemic, too many women are actually stepping out of the paid labor market because of the lack of childcare. We're seeking an explicit equity-seeking agenda to address anti-black, anti-Asian, and anti-Indigenous racism and discrimination. And we know that COVID-19 has disproportionately affected these communities in terms of work, their ability to safely quarantine, and we've seen a rise in anti-Asian racist incidents during COVID-19. And there are higher incidences of COVID-19 among black communities, especially being tracked in Toronto and Montreal. So, we're taking a racial and gender equity strategy. And last but not least, we're also promoting a caring economy and a public health agenda. This includes investments in long-term care. We've seen far too many vulnerable seniors who have been impacted by COVID-19 outbreaks in long-term care facilities, as well as personal support workers who were not protected in the workplace from COVID-19. We're promoting investments in home care. We do think it's time for a universal pharmacare plan and the throne speech, once again, promises that there's one around the corner. And then the creation of a universal mental health care plan, as we've already discussed. We address climate change. We address trade issues, taxation, how we pay for it all. You name it, there's a chapter on it. JO  17:15 What's the URL if people want to get more information about the plan? TRISH  17:20 www.policyalternatives.ca. JO  17:23 For this plan to work, we'll need political and administrative buy-in from all levels of government, I assume. TRISH  17:31 Over 25 years, let me tell you, it's been a long uphill climb. We've had our victories, and particularly, it's kind of notable to me, particularly in moments of economic crisis, we've noticed governments are a little bit more ready to act on some of our recommendations. In the 2008-2009 global recession, we wrote an Alternative Federal Budget plan to get through the worst of that. Surprisingly, the Stephen Harper government implemented a number of our recommendations at that time, which kind of surprised us, but we were happy to see it happen. And then, again, now we're in the middle of a crisis, and we're seeing the federal government, now it's a Liberal government, and we're seeing them implement a number of the policies that we're advocating for, partly because what we're advocating for, it just makes sense. It's like we suddenly noticed public health, it's suddenly visible in the middle of a pandemic. Problems that need to be fixed, like employment insurance, suddenly become glaringly obvious in the middle of a pandemic, or a global economic crisis. The sad thing is, had more governments taken up these policy recommendations over the years, we would have been more prepared for all of this because it wasn't a surprise that employment insurance wasn't up to the task. We've known for more than a decade, that far too many unemployed workers didn't even qualify for employment insurance. And if they did qualify, it still isn't adequate. Because, remember, I was talking earlier about the importance of income adequacy. It's one thing to provide income benefits to Canadians, but if you're trapping them in poverty, you're actually just perpetuating cycles of poverty. And that's bad policy decision-making. So, long story short, we've had our moments. We do feel like there's greater receptivity to our just recovery plan because these are just obvious solutions. But I would just submit that they shouldn't just be obvious in the middle of a crisis or an emergency. If we'd had investments in these policies decades ago, we would be fighting a pandemic from upstream instead of downstream. JO  19:53 To talk more about the provinces' role in recovery and some options that are being explored in British Columbia, I welcome our next guest. Arden Hanley is Board Chair of the Green Technology Education Centre in BC, which has recently established the Council for the Green New Economy. With a Doctorate of Education, Arden is former vice-president of City University in Seattle. His recently published book, entitled Social Architecture: Notes and Essays, summarizes his 35 years experience as both a family therapist and organizational development consultant. Hello, Arden. And thanks for joining us. ARDEN  20:36 Hi there Joanne, and hi Trish. I'm delighted to have this opportunity to have this conversation with you both. JO  20:44 So, why don't you start by telling us what we need to know about the Green Technology Education Centre. ARDEN  20:50 GTech, as we like to call it, will celebrate its fourth year in the spring of 2021. It's a nonprofit and its mission is to inform, support, and activate communities in responding to the climate crisis. JO  21:09 You recently released a report called Rebuilding BC: A Portfolio of Possibilities. Can you summarize the principles and recommendations in that document, and how they mirror the model outlined in Kate Raworth's book, Doughnut Economics? ARDEN  21:29 Let me give you a bit of background first. At the time COVID struck, we were delivering a community-based program called the Neighborhood Environmental Education Project in conjunction with Vancouver's Association of Neighborhood Houses. And basically, the objective of the program was to deliver education at a community level. We had 14 different environmental organizations make presentations at the neighborhood houses. We also held town halls to listen to the community and where they were standing in relation to the climate crisis. Then along came COVID, and we pivoted at that point and formed the Council for a Green New Economy based on some of the thinking that Trish has already shared. It was very clear to us that when COVID was said and done, there was no way we can or should return to business as usual. What's the alternative? That was our question in terms of economic recovery. What a social justice and green environment and recovery looked like was the mission of the council. The council consisted of a core seven people of economists, environmentalists, lawyers, social workers, and we then surrounded ourselves with a circle of subject matter experts in areas ranging from building retrofits to corporate social responsibility. The report, as you know, is based on what we might call ‘doughnut economy' principles, and the doughnut economy suggests that in shaping the economy, we should consider not just how much money the society is making... what the GDP is... but we should also consider the social and mental health of the society, the education of the society. We should also consider its relationship to its environment or its ecology. So, if you picture the doughnut, then it has these three major layers, the 'social foundation', including mental health, education, and also social justice issues like income, equity, childcare, housing, and so forth. The inner layer is a social foundation. The next level is the relationship with the environment. If we destroy our environment, of course, our economy isn't going to function at all. And then finally, the outer layer is the economy. JO  24:16 So, Arden, what are the specific recommendations outlined in the report? ARDEN  24:23 First of all, the overall recommendation is to take the opportunity of reconstructing the BC economy, post-COVID, in terms of sustainable rather than extractive principles. And within that, then we make four key recommendations. First of all, to generate employment through the construction of new affordable housing, including modular construction for the homeless. And this would be done by an expanded and more effective nonprofit sector. We go on to say, number two, create jobs and reduce carbon emissions through programs that support large scale retrofitting of buildings. Interestingly, buildings are one of the major sources of carbon emissions up to 60% in cities. There's a tremendous carbon payoff from this, as well as great opportunities for employment. The third recommendation addresses our food supply by encouraging BC to secure its food supply by supporting farm employment and increasing land use. And finally, here, there's a tremendous convergence with mental health. As you know, we encourage the government to employ up to 30,000 young people as Recovery Rangers to help with BC's economic recovery. And in the report, we spell out a number of areas where youth employment could be particularly an asset, such as the restoration of environments such as wetlands, the further enhancement of walkability in cities... we identified several areas like that as employment opportunities for young people that would also result in a more green environment for us all. JO  26:26 We heard from Tricia about the federal government's role in policy change. Ideally, what is the province's role in achieving your recommendations? ARDEN  26:36 Well, as you know, the province has very many key domains, such as energy, mines and petroleum; municipal affairs; social development; and poverty reduction… all of those areas fall under the auspices of the provincial government. Provincial government does also have a lot to say about the environment and climate change strategy and has a ministry with that title. The provincial government is also responsible for forest lands and natural resources and rural development. So, all those domains, then there's tremendous steps forward that provincial governments can take to complement the broader strategy of the federal government. JO  27:23 I know that you released this report a number of months ago, and I'm just wondering where you're at with that. Are you having discussions with the provincial government? And if so, how are they unfolding? ARDEN  27:36 Jo, we've had three very productive conversations with government at the cabinet level. We've been very encouraged by their response and also by the inclusion of some of our recommendations in their first economic recovery strategy. But most importantly, we've opened channels for ongoing dialogue. The report has also been a springboard for some further definitive action on the GTech board's part, which we're very excited about. JO  28:09 I know that you've also had discussions with a number of different organizations throughout the province, what has come of those? ARDEN  28:19 In the construction of the report, we had a lot of great feedback from environmentally concerned organizations and environmental organizations. And we incorporated that in the report. But from our point of view, and it also enabled us to build on the relationships that we'd begun to establish through the Neighborhood Environmental Education Project, with a range of the many environmental organizations in BC. And through that, we also began to see a picture of not only tremendous industry and accomplishments, but also continued fragmentation, and a lack of consolidation of effort, which is really been a part of a new strategic plan that the board has been working on, in which GTech has a role in addressing this issue of fragmentation or, in more positive terms, consolidating our efforts. JO  29:20 You've mentioned numerous times that a prime focus of this is enriched employment opportunities, especially for younger people. Have you had any input from organizations like the BC Federation of Labor, for example? ARDEN  29:38 Yes, we have actually built a very positive relationship with the Fed, and we're engaged in ongoing discussions with them. Of course, they have tremendous sensitivities on behalf of their members about where employment takes place, and what government policy supports. I think what's very unique, and I think they would say that as well… that we have not taken a proselytizing stance. With the Fed, we've taken a stance that says let's find common ground, and they certainly do have environmental concerns. And they also have social justice concerns, which we share. JO  30:22 Looking again a little deeper into the employment aspect of this, I know Arden that you have been long involved in counseling and social development and those kinds of things. Why do you think these kinds of green tech opportunities will be embraced by younger potential employees? ARDEN  30:45 While there's no question that the next generations from Gen Z and on are already deeply concerned about the climate crisis. I recall vividly marching across the Cambie Street Bridge with nine- and ten-year-olds, along with parents, teachers, and people of all ages, carrying signs clearly very concerned and aware about environmental issues. There's no question that young people are aware of the climate crisis, its implications, and feel a tremendous urgency, understandably, about this issue being addressed. JO  31:27 And they're also looking to make a contribution to their communities, aren't they? ARDEN  31:32 Definitely. We have a great pilot project going right now, by the way, with Gen Z via two BC high schools, and we're doing an education project about electrified transportation, using an AI mediated application. It's so much fun, and they have so much concern, but also a really sophisticated understanding of these issues. JO  31:57 That's great. It sounds like you're doing amazing work. ARDEN  32:00 I hope that's the case... I certainly feel good about it. The other thing I wanted to mention to you is that Rebuilding BC has also inspired the GTech board of directors to take GTech in a much more definitively educational direction, with the ultimate goal of creating an educational institute in a much more formal way than it is now, including, eventually, degree granting. So, we're quite excited about that development. And I want to assure you, by the way, that as we began to design what this center will look like, that mental health, providing support through counseling and community development initiatives, in relation to mental health has a key role to play in our view. JO  32:48 Well, we'll have to have another discussion once that is all set and ready to go. ARDEN  32:53 For sure... be delighted to. JO  32:55 So, we talked about federal and provincial roles in the move toward a more sustainable economy that also supports mental health. What about the role of local governments in that transition? Arden, do you think local governments have any clout here? Or are they at the whim of senior government policies? ARDEN  33:18 Well, I think Trish was very right in saying that municipal governments, city governments, right now are really struggling. They've lost enormous tax revenue, and at the same time, have had to provide additional services. But Vancouver, for example, does have a plan. And they've put a great deal of energy and attention into it. So, I think cities can play a very important role. JO  33:43 Trish, any more thoughts on that? TRISH  33:46 I agree, they've got one hand tied behind their back, for sure, because they don't have the fiscal tools that provincial and federal government have. But also, I think sometimes local governments have more weight, and some of them think they do, because all of those downstream problems have an economy that's not sustainable in terms of income inequality and climate emergencies. Those present themselves as major problems at the doorsteps of our municipal governments and our health units. So, municipalities are on the front lines, sending word back to senior levels of government to hopefully inform policy and fiscal transfers from those governments. So, I think sometimes municipalities don't have the strength. But especially when they get together and make demands of senior levels of government, real change can happen. JO  34:39 We did a podcast about the role of local government in community mental health, and the big takeaway for me there was that it's not only important for local government to work with senior governments but also with people within their own communities. Groups like businesses, universities, colleges, schools at all levels, and particularly community groups, who not only have ideas about how things can be improved, but also they have the manpower and the passion to get these things on the ground. So, I think that's something else that's really worth noting. TRISH  35:23 Absolutely. Whether it's city council, or provincial or federal, governments cannot make policy in a vacuum. It has to be shaped by the lived experience of people on the ground.  JO  35:34 Exactly. Both of your documents… Trish, your Alternative Federal Budget recovery plan… and Arden, your Rebuilding BC document, they both outline the need for a just and green economy. Let's dig a little deeper here, starting with a just economy. Trish, how would you define that? TRISH  36:00 I talked a little bit about that earlier. And so really, to me, the core of a just economy ensures that economic growth isn't the only measure of success, because then you're leaving a lot of suffering out of that frame. A just economy operates on key principles of income, security, greater equality on all fronts... that caring economy that I talked about earlier. And it also understands that a green economy has to be embedded in the just economy, because if we can't save our planet, if the next 40 years is more trying to deal with climate emergencies, then the people in the communities who will be hardest impacted by that by climate change and those climate emergencies, will be people on the lower end of the income spectrum. We see it with every kind of crisis, and we're seeing it with COVID-19. It impacts lower income communities more… it impacts racialized communities more. So, a just economy really is focused more on like that doughnut economy that Arden was talking about. JO  37:11 Arden… additional thoughts? ARDEN  37:13 Let me start with a story. I teach a course called the Psychology of Aging. And one of the exercises I ask students to do is imagine themselves as 72 years old, and looking back over their lives, to ask questions like: What were the most significant turning points in your life journey? And are some of those ones that you would decide differently? Looking back, are there others that you're absolutely delighted with? I have them do it in triads. So, if you can picture that situation, and then following that, the class's debriefing their experience of the exercise, by the way, this exercise, speaking of social justice, has the effect of getting younger people under the ages of barrier. That's one of the intentions. In any case, we're debriefing this exercise, and suddenly, one of the students in the class, it's a graduate class, she's probably around 28, and she suddenly started sobbing. It was so powerful. And she and I talked, and what she said was, "I can't be sure that I'll be even alive when I'm 72. I don't know whether I want to get married. I don't know whether I want to have children. The future of the planet, the environment, but also the social world is so uncertain." It really broke my heart. And there you begin to see that connection between the climate crisis and mental health. It's very evident. JO  38:54 Can you give us some examples as to how a just economy would support better mental health outcomes? Trish... TRISH  39:04 Let me try to loop it in with a just economy and a green economy, and how that could foster better mental health. And just thinking about Arden's exercise... I wish everybody would go through that thought exercise and really think about the future that faces them if we continue with the status quo. There's this term called 'eco-grief'. It describes the deep sense of angst and dread that many people feel, and especially young people, when they realize that our economic activities are compromising the health of our planet. And that time is really running out quickly. And it describes the despair that many people feel over the lack of concerted government efforts to treat climate change like the emergency that it is. Arden mentioned Seth Klein, earlier in his comments, and Seth Klein has a new book called 'A Good War', and it draws on the lessons from previous war time in Canada, where governments treated things like an emergency and made incredible policy advances, and how we need to treat climate change like that emergency. And that's why it's called 'A Good War'... it's definitely a book worth reading. I think that if you address climate change, like the emergency that it is, you would be addressing some of that eco-grief that's out there. And eco-grief isn't just when you think about your future and you wonder, "Am I going to have a future, because are we going to have a healthy planet?" But eco grief is already happening to people whose communities have been ravaged by wildfires, by flooding, by other community-related emergencies. And so, dealing a plan that anticipates more of this, and supports people through these climate emergencies, would also be part of addressing eco-grief. Human beings are deeply connected with our natural environment. We live in a built environment, but we have a deep connection with that natural environment. And if that natural environment isn't doing well, we aren't either… physically or mentally. JO  41:11 Before we move on to a rather complex question. Arden, I'd love for you to just very briefly explain what a green economy is. ARDEN  41:21 I think the major criteria of the green economy is its environmental sustainability. Are we relating to our environment in a way that will result in future generations having the same abundance that we've experienced? And clearly, our current economy does not meet that key criterion. If we continue to use fossil fuels at the level that we currently use them, we will fundamentally destroy environment of the planet. So that's, to me, the first criteria. And the second is how can we relate to the environment in a way that also supports our resilience as communities, families, and individuals. And this whole idea of connection is so important. When I asked Jody Wilson-Raybould, who represents our riding [federally], and is also a colleague, what was the most important thing that Indigenous people had to say about a green economy, she talked, as Trish did earlier, about connection. We need to foster, embrace, and celebrate our connection to the natural world. JO  42:36 So, ideally, we need policies and practices at all levels of government that foster a just economy, and that support a green economy as well. Now, let's talk specifics about how those can best intersect. In your two documents, there are areas of focus that overlap. And I'd like to explore those one at a time and their impacts on mental health. Let's start with climate change. How can what we know about green technology enable not only environmental outcomes, but social sustainability as well? ARDEN  43:17 Well, I think New Zealand, Norway, Finland, are showing us a lot about how to create a healthy society. Let's take for example, how business operates. In all of those countries, government is requiring that corporations…  businesses… address environmental and social justice issues in their business planning and operations. So, that requirement is one way to bring the commercial sector of the economy on board with creating not only a more sustainable, but a more compassionate, supportive, and respectful society. JO  43:58 Trish, any comments on that integration regarding climate change? TRISH  44:03 I totally agree with Arden... I would just add one thing. There's this nascent but growing movement in Canada around inclusive economy initiatives. And here they're looking at what public anchor institutions can do in any community across Canada to foster a just economy that's inclusive, sustainable, and that is also a green economy. So, with public anchor institutions... your city council, your hospitals, your universities... these are examples of public institutions that make spending decisions every day, whether it's for procurement, they're putting out RFPs for work that has to get done. And so, with regard to procurement, they're saying, why not make your criteria for procurement social procurement criteria. Instead of just putting out an RFP, and the criteria is we're going to give the RFP to the lowest bidder... how are you the lowest bidder, well, you're  paying your employees low wages. And some government policies and spending decisions are actually reinforcing the low-wage precarious economy. If you actually make an inclusive economy, an element and a goal out of your procurement policies would be to look at RFPs from companies in our community who show a commitment to green sustainable practices, who hire and/or offer training opportunities and apprentice opportunities for people from marginalized and historically disadvantaged communities. You think of all the money that gets spent from all these public anchor institutions, and we forget the social and the sustainability question within it. So, ideally, they would intersect by saying, we're not putting out RFPs, or making contracting-out decisions based on cheap. We're making those decisions based on inclusion and resilience and sustainability. And by the way, if public anchor institutions did this, this would be good for their local economies, because they would be less dependent on these external multinational corporations [that] are only interested in your community if you're a low tax jurisdiction, if they can actually get away with a low-paying workforce so that they can extract more profits that don't stay in the community. So, an inclusive economic approach, if you're building a bridge, you would have a community benefit agreement, so that the general contractor who's building the bridge would be hiring people from the community who are on the sidelines of the labour market. They want in, but they don't have access to those opportunities. So, there's a lot more power that our public anchor institutions have, I think that they could be exercising, that we have to change the frame from cheap and low bidder, to social and sustainable. JO  47:02 Trish talked in detail about inclusive economy, and both of your reports talked about equality. Are those the same thing? TRISH  47:12 They're interconnected, for sure. I co-founded the National Income Inequality Project in 2006. Actually, since then, we've been tracking the growth of income inequality in Canada, and the storyline is the same today as it was in 2006. As we've grown the economy, the benefits of that economic growth haven't been redistributed.... that more and more, if you're well off, you're even more better off. Corporations and CEOs, the CEO pay gap compared to the average income, keeps going through the roof. So, if you actually want to attack income inequality, and protect the middle class and the working class, and eliminate poverty, then you have to change how you do your economy. And you have to make sure that the economy isn't simply extractive. That economy has to have social goals that say, we want to be a Canada that leaves no one behind, and we're one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, we actually have the resources to do it. The pandemic is forcing us to spend some resources to do some of this stuff, but it can't stop there. We can't go back to an old model because it wasn't working in the first place. JO  48:32 Arden, any comments about inclusivity or equality? ARDEN  48:37 Absolutely. Let me channel first Bernie Sanders a little bit… and looking at the example of the United States… three billionaires... Bezos, Gates, and Buffet... command as much wealth as the lower 50% or 150 million people in the US. This is income disparity. Now, let me link it directly to mental health through a book that I found so informative and fascinating, The Spiritual Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett. And what that book does, and their subsequent research does, is report on the social and mental health impact of income disparity. It turns out that there's a very direct relationship between income disparity and a whole range of societal wellness and mental health issues, ranging from infant mortality to longevity, including teenage pregnancies and delinquency. There's just a remarkable connection. And this research was enabled, of course, because over the last 50 years, the developing countries have kept very comprehensive statistics of the social dimensions or determinants of societies. So, let's talk about taxation and banks. If we want to have a healthier society, we need to adjust the tax system so that it redistributes income much more equitably. And we also need to provide sources of funding that recognize, explicitly, wellness and sustainability. We need instruments like social banks. JO  50:24 Both of your reports also included information about affordable housing. So, Trish, starting with you, what is the link between that and both a just and green economy? TRISH  50:38 Here, I'm just gonna give you an example. The City of Medicine Hat [Alberta] became the first city in Canada to eliminate chronic homelessness. And how did they do that? They gave people housing... they gave them access to housing. And once they had access to housing, they offered other income and community support to help the homeless integrate back into the community. This is a model of how you actually look at solutions that aren't just one dimensional. Yes, the homeless need housing, but they also benefit from wraparound services so that they can get back on their feet and integrate into the community again. Unfortunately, I think too many times when we think about affordable housing, we think about it in commodified private market-sector terms. We think about affordable housing as the housing market is too expensive. Say, can we do something to lower my mortgage rate? And, [with] that focus on the private sector… can I buy my own home and afford to?" [This] pushes a lot of people out of the window... the homeless number one, but also people who will never be able to afford to carry a mortgage, people who will always be in the rental market or rental market that is squeezing more people is increasingly unaffordable, and not regulated to protect renters and tenants. I think that you have to look at all of these things in an integrated way. And not just in that commodified private sector market. What can a government do to make it easier for you to buy a house or a second home... the well off? We have to think about who's missing from this frame? JO  52:28 Arden, what about the impact of education on a just and green economy? ARDEN  52:34 Let me just say one thing about housing if I can, Jo. One of the things we recommend is the support and further development of nonprofit housing providers, which can really make a substantial difference in the availability of housing to minorities and the economically disadvantaged. The other thing… I just want to highlight what Trish was saying about once you have people housed, then you can wrap services around them much more easily than if they're on the street or moving from place to place. Education's my bias, one of the fundamental predictors of sustainability and health in a society. And there's so much that we can do with education. Let's just take the example of assuring that we're educating girls and young women. The level of education of women in the society is one of the most vibrant predictors of the society's wellness and its economic development. JO  53:36 This last one is really near and dear to my heart as a communication specialist to all levels of government with regard to public outreach and engagement. What is the link between public engagement, a just economy, and a green economy? TRISH  53:53 In researching what some communities across North America and in the UK are doing to foster an inclusive economy, I was struck by what the City of Seattle has done. They've actually set up a table where all of the representatives from frontline service workers in those most marginalized and disadvantaged communities, they have a table to inform the city policies and budget decisions. In Canada, often there'll be consultations, and there might be a brief mayor's table that's created. And you might be able to come in and weigh in at that one time, and then you're gone. This table is a permanent table. The people who are actually seeing the devastation of public policies and an economy that leaves too many behind have a permanent place influencing the city's budget and policy decision-making. And those are frontline leaders who are deeply connected in their communities and they're bringing back the information, the stories. and the recommendations from their communities. I think that's a powerful model. JO  55:06 It's very progressive. Arden? ARDEN  55:09 I was just thinking of in terms of an inclusive economy. And I'm sure that an inclusive economy contributes to the mental health of the society and its members. It's about the availability of money. And this is another strength of public banking, which is very well developed in Europe, for example, public banking is much more inclined to make money available to disadvantage groups. JO  55:38 So, you're talking about public investment, then? ARDEN  55:41 Yes, absolutely. Public banks are generally owned by government. It's an instrument that government can use to generate a more just and more fair economy. TRISH  55:54 And imagine if we had that here, and that if you were very low income and needed cash quickly, that your option wasn't solely to go to payday lenders who are charging exorbitant, I would say criminal, amounts of interest that can just keep you stuck in poverty forever. Imagine if we actually delegitimize the payday lender sector and said, there's a role for government here. ARDEN  56:22 Thanks so much for getting there, Trisha. That's where I was going to go next. Yes, let's get rid of a loan outfit. TRISH  56:29 Exactly. JO  56:30 I know you both agree that social justice, resilience, and sustainability are three sides of the same coin. So, have we already covered that? Or are there other things that you'd like to add here? Arden? ARDEN  56:45 COVID made it very clear, I think Trish was saying that earlier. The people who are suffering most, let's even say dying, or frequently are the disadvantaged members of our society. So, you can begin to see there... the sides of the coin relate to one another. Or if you look at climate change... the communities and the countries in the world who are already suffering the impact of climate change, most dramatically, are the countries who are in poverty with disintegrating societies, and so forth. We need to approach these issues from all three sides of the coin, that is including social justice and resilience along with sustainability. JO  57:30 So, that triples the complexity then of the challenges and the opportunities? ARDEN  57:36 It also amplifies the benefits of making significant progress, and any side of the coin, because it's likely to influence the other sides in a positive way. TRISH  57:48 I think it acknowledges the complexity… it acknowledges that all of these things are interconnected, that the Minister of Health doesn't just look at doctors and nurses and hospitals. If the Minister of Health really wants to promote healthy societies, that Minister of Health is working with the Minister of Education is working with the Minister of Labour, to create decent work, to create educational opportunities, skills, training, lifelong skills, an economy that keeps changing and demands more and more of us. So, it's like what I said earlier about the leg bone being connected to the hip bone. Sometimes public policy acts as though they're not connected at all. But if you acknowledge that complexity, and how interconnected all of these things are, then you're actually not putting good money after bad money, you're actually investing in solutions that can lead to a healthier, more cohesive society. And also more inclusive economies that give people hope and make them feel like they have a chance in life. And all of that is deeply interconnected with the health and vibrancy of our democracies, because I've long said that democracies can't run on autopilot... it requires a deeply engaged citizenry. And you can't do that if you're just fighting to keep a roof over your head. If you're fighting to get some kind of food, any kind of food into your home, you can't feel like you're actually engaged. You've got this other full-time job and it's trying to stay alive and keep your family going. So, acknowledging those complexities would be a very upstream approach to government policymaking. JO  59:33 How do both your organization's recommendations for a just and green economy stack up against the World Health Organization's sustainable development goals? Arden? ARDEN  59:46 We know that Rebuilding BC is fundamentally aligned with the sustainability goals of the United Nations and was something that we took into consideration and were aware of. And the amazing thing is, so many of these documents, these reports, these policy recommendations, are aligned with one another. And my hope for the future is that we'll work more closely together and have more dialogue.  TRISH  1:00:14 If we embraced well-being budgeting and inclusive economy initiatives, we would make far more progress on those Sustainable Development Goals than we're making today. As I said earlier, Canada is one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. The only thing preventing Canada from achieving those Sustainable Development Goals has been political will, at every jurisdictional level. And so, I'm hoping that if one good thing can happen from a pandemic, that will snap us out of the status quo approach, because the status quo hasn't been the option. Both of our documents that we're talking about today give us a pathway to achieving those goals. JO  1:00:53 Talking about what we've learned from the pandemic, what have you learned about each of the following? First of all, the potential for rapid policy change and financial support? Trish? TRISH  1:01:05 Everything is possible. Everything's on the table, and everything is possible. And like I said about Seth Klein, what he has to say... treat it like an emergency... and the solutions present themselves. ARDEN  1:01:16 Governments can pivot enormously quickly when they have to, and they can command more resources than they've allowed us to know. JO  1:01:27 How about the drawbacks of bipartisan politics and their impact on our ability to move toward better mental health? TRISH  1:01:37 I think we've seen less performative politics... performative, partisan jostling during the pandemic. I mean, there's still some of it, but there hasn't been a huge public appetite for that sort of thing. JO  1:01:48 Not in Canada, anyway.  TRISH  1:01:50 That's right. Watching the US news can feel very defeating some days. So, there's been more cooperation than I think we're used to seeing in recent years. And I think that you're seeing how things can work when provinces and municipalities and the federal government work in common cause. And I just want to see more of it over the long haul. JO  1:02:10 What about the role of innovation? TRISH  1:02:13 We've seen huge innovation from the public service to create federal programs to support those workers and businesses that were sidelined at the start of the pandemic. There were public servants who were writing new policy overnight, and doing very innovative work under duress, often from their homes with children under foot at the beginning of the economic lockdown. It's not just in this moment that we see it. Economist Mariana Mazzucato, she's written about the history of the public sector, and how governments have historically led the way on innovations that later get picked up by the private sector. And so, governments and the public sector often get short shrift when it comes to appreciating the power that they have to create innovative new solutions to the problems that are before us. But I actually hope that this pandemic is fostering a renewed appreciation for the role and the responsibility that governments have not only to protect the public good, but to spur the innovations required to meet that goal, to protect and support the public good. ARDEN  1:03:23 On the ground level, my local coffee shop has been so innovative in continuing to connect with, reach out, and serve the local community. And also, I think the business sector of the economy has been incredibly innovative, and shifting a great deal of their transactions, meetings, and work online to lower the risk of transmission through face-to-face encounters.  JO  1:03:52 This next one is really key to me in that the Fresh Outlook Foundation has really focused on increasing communication and collaboration. So, what have you learned about the importance of collaboration during the pandemic? That could be across geographies, governments, businesses, NGOs, academics, demographics, etc. We could go on. Trish, what's your takeaway there?  TRISH  1:04:23 This is a big one. But I'll just focus on how we have seen public health experts and epidemiologists from around the world collaborating on learning in real time about this virus, sharing that information so that other countries can be better prepared to deal with outbreaks, working collaboratively to try to develop in real time vaccines that can sometimes take decades to create. And so, I'm seeing a level of cooperation for all around the public good that is not just national in scope. You're seeing it across Canada, but you're also seeing it globally as well. And that is very heartening to me. ARDEN  1:05:08 I think the level of collaboration, level of action, and hot networks has increased quite dramatically. And it's really heartening. And it's really a lot of fun. So, let's reach out, listen, connect, learn, and then take action together. JO  1:05:28 When we talk about these revelations for rapid policy change, financial support, the role of innovation, the importance of collaboration, how can we use these revelations to best inform response to other very big societal challenges such as loneliness and systemic racism, for example? TRISH  1:05:53 I'm going to go back to Seth Klein's findings from his book, The Good War. Treat it like an emergency. Treat loneliness and depression like it's an emergency, instead of putting people on six-month waiting lists that they may or may not ever be [able to] afford or to have access to help from. Treating homelessness like an emergency. Before this pandemic, we just really became complacent, and I'm really hoping that this pandemic jolts us out of that. ARDEN  1:06:24 I think we need to work together on the fundamentals. And to me, the fundamentals are building communities and supporting families. That's the cornerstone of our society. JO  1:06:36 Given the tenure of existing free-market economic policies and practices, how can we make the break to a more just and green economy? TRISH  1:06:49 We might be reaching the tipping point with this global pandemic. It broke down supply chains. It's illustrated the power of governments to act. It's reduced many private-sector actors to businesses begging for government help, and we can't unsee that. That is something that's happening, and it's affecting how we view who acts and where the leadership needs to come from. ARDEN  1:07:12 To go back to Trish's point, I think the fundamental flaw is prioritizing material gain over the public good. And I think that we need to prioritize the public good, and all of our thinking, and especially our thinking about economies. And yes, COVID has helped us to make that transition. The great majority of people are very aware of the imperative to take care of one another during this period, to wear masks to keep appropriate distance, to limit our social contact, at the same time finding new ways to be connected with one another. JO  1:07:54 Exactly. And I hear over and over again amongst my family and friends and professional networks that people are really thinking about what really matters. And I think that's just a hugely important shift. Let's say that we do hop on that path to a more just and green economy. How long would it take before we start seeing positive impacts of that? TRISH  1:08:22 I think almost immediately… you put the inputs in, and the outputs will start presenting themselves almost immediately. It will take as long as required, but not a second more, and change can happen swiftly. ARDEN  1:08:35 I live near a very busy street called King Edward. It's an east-west thoroughfare in Vancouver, not quite as dramatic as the Gardiner Expressway in Toronto, but a very busy street. For two weeks, during the height of the pandemic, King Edward went quiet. There were occasional vehicles rather than herds of vehicles. And those vehicles were driving very slowly. There w