Podcast appearances and mentions of larry all

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, Well-Being friends, welcome to The Path to Well-Being in Law Podcast, an initiative of The Institute for Well-Being in Law. I'm your co-host, Chris Newbold, Executive Vice President of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. And, boy, how exciting is it that we're actually moving into the summer months? I always feel like well-being takes a natural elevated state in the summer months. We're also coming off of a really exciting Well-Being in Law week, and I'm joined by my co-host, Bree Buchanan. Bree, I'd just love to hear your reflections on, again, a May event that's really become a foundational element in the well-being horizon, as we think about bringing people together and shining a light on well-being. What were your reflections on this year's Well-Being Week in Law? BREE BUCHANAN: Good morning. Hey, Chris. So that was just... It's such an amazing event, and it's really become a signature event for The Institute for Well-Being in Law. This is our second year to do it. We didn't necessarily have people sign up, but we were able to look at things like the analytics, the people coming to our website, all of that doubled over last year. We had so much energy and excitement around that, and many people involved. We had the actual... the whole week for the Well-Being Week in Law, every day programming. And then this year, we added the after-party, which two weeks later, we did another full week of programming around the different dimensions of well-being for the professionals in this space, the people who are tasked with law firms, with... coming up with well-being programming. That's really an area that the institute is focused on, and supporting the movement and all the people that are out there that are part of this movement. So, it was a great event. What did you think? CHRIS: Yeah, I thought was fantastic, again. One of our goals on the podcast is to build and nurture a national network of well-being advocates. I think one of the great results of the week was just, again, a mobilization an army of folks who are really interested in this particular issue. We would be remiss without recognizing one of our colleagues, Bree, Anne Bradford, and all of the work that she did to really both initiate, and has really been building some significant momentum in building this community through events like Well-Being Week in Law. BREE: Absolutely. The community and just the partnerships that she's helping us create, really valuable. CHRIS: I think the folks interested in receiving mailings and communications from the institute, I think went up to like 1,400. Again, just a testament to the number of folks who are really passionate about this issue and want to see it remain at the forefront as we look to improve the profession. So that's awesome. Let's move into our podcast today. We're, again, super excited. We've taken a little bit of a pivot. In our first 10 to 12, 15 podcasts, we really focused on some individuals in the movement. We've been moving to a little bit of a mini series format. We started with law schools, and now we're really excited to delve into the intersection of well-being and research, and research into the well-being cause. There's been, in a lot of professions, probably a lot more empirical research. We certainly are moving into that space in terms of specifically looking at lawyers, research, well-being, happiness. I know, Bree, we are super excited about our guest today, who's going to kick off our research miniseries, Larry Krieger from Florida State University. Bree, I know that you've known Larry for a lot of years, I'm going to give you the honors of introducing Larry. But we are really excited about our podcast today in the intersection of well-being and the happiness of lawyers, which is, again, something I've been really excited to get into. BREE: Right. I am delighted Larry is somebody I've looked up to and look to as such a real expert in this space ever since I started working in this area, which was 2009. So, let me just give everybody an introduction. Professor Larry Krieger is a widely-recognized expert in lawyer well-being, and particularly, I think, he's known for his study and work around What Makes Lawyers Happy? And we'll get to hear more about that. That study, in particular, was research on 6,200 lawyers, and identified the specific factors that are required for lawyer wellness and satisfaction and basically, happiness. The New York Times report article on that study was the most shared article in The Times for the following two days. So a lot of buzz about that when it came out in 2015. Larry was the founding Chair of the section on balance and legal education for the Association of American Law Schools. He was a litigator for 11 years, so he knows what it's like to be in the trenches. Part of that was Chief Trial Counsel for the Florida Controller, and he now teaches litigation skills and professionalism at the Florida State University College of Law. He is rightly-so recognized as one of the 25 teachers in the Harvard Press Book, entitled, What the Best Law Teachers Do. Finally, I got to meet Larry in person when I presented to him in 2018 at CoLAP Meritorious Service Award, which is given, really, for a lifetime distinction in the work that addresses mental health and substance abuse issues in the profession. That is a small introduction to all that Larry has done in this space. So, Larry, welcome. We're so glad you're here. I want to ask you a question of what we ask for all of our guests. We start off with asking, what brought you to the well-being movement? We have found that just about for all of our guests, and certainly for all of us who are involved in the institute, there's some sort of personal life experience, something that drives our passion for this work. So, what can you tell us about your experience? And welcome, Larry. LARRY KRIEGER: Well, first, thank you so much. It really is a pleasure and an honor to get to talk to you both, and thank you for the amazing work that you both are doing them and all the people out there. Funny story. So what brought me to it was my first wife, who... way back then, she had actually been dating Mike Love, the lead singer for the Beach Boys, when the Beach Boys learned meditation. BREE: Okay. LARRY: Remember [inaudible 00:07:27] back in the late '60s or something. So we're going back a little ways here. I've been around. So I was in law school at the time, actually, I was miserable, and we heard that this meditation teacher, Transcendental Meditation, at the time, was coming to town. And she said, "Oh, let's go." And I said [inaudible 00:07:50]. And so she dragged me in there. I thought it was the stupidest thing I ever heard. We walked out, she was glowing. Like, this is fabulous, thought [inaudible 00:07:59], brother. They wanted 35 bucks for you to learn this technique, I thought this is for the birds. So she learned it, and she changed within two weeks. She was a different person. BREE: Wow. LARRY: So I said, "Okay, I want to learn it, too." Then it took me months to get into it, because the teacher didn't come back for three months. So it was just really good luck. It transcended my own ignorance, honestly. And then I was unhappy in law school, and actually quit law school. It took me eight years to get through law school, which I love telling students when they're discouraged. BREE: Right. LARRY: I just didn't like it. The reason I didn't like it is everybody there was so unhappy. I had already been in the Air Force through the Vietnam War, and I was a little older and stuff going to law school, and I thought, everybody is so serious. Oh, my God. Nobody's got their leg shot off. BREE: Right. LARRY: I just kept quitting law school, because I just didn't like being around. It was so serious and negative. So yeah, that was on me. I've learned to have better boundaries. But that's how I got involved. Then when I finally became a lawyer, I noticed how unhappy the lawyers were. BREE: Right. LARRY: [inaudible 00:09:14]. Come on, guys. Even the super successful ones were just ramped up, tense, pushy, on edge all the time. Of course, by then I had been meditating for a while, and so I it was keeping me chilled out. I was prosecuting in West Palm. We had the sixth highest crime rate in the country at the time. So it's not like it was... I was dodging the bullets and avoiding the trenches, like you say. But just, do your job and then go home and have a nice life. So what got me involved was good luck, certainly not my own intelligence, and then just seeing what was going on in front of me. BREE: Right, right. Absolutely. CHRIS: Well, Larry, you've... Certainly, when you look back on your research and scholarship, it now goes back almost 20 years. I know that you've been thinking about it even longer than that. In some respects, you've been a disruptor in our space before it was even a thing. If you look back on some of your titles, I just I marvel at the fact that you saw so much of this so early, that even though the movement is where it is today, again, you were talking about a two decades ago. Some of your titles included Institutional Denial About the Dark Side of Law, and I think that was published in 2002. Understanding the Negative Effects of Legal Education on Law Students, again, 2002. Does Legal Education Have Undermining Effects on Law Students? 2004. What were you seeing among your students that brought you to engage in this type of research and scholarship? LARRY: Yeah, thanks. Let me just say [inaudible 00:10:55] just like me starting meditation and getting a bigger picture on life than what I had up to that point. I got lucky and got this job. I wasn't looking for a job, I had a marvelous job of chasing Ponzi schemes out of the State of Florida for the state comptroller, like Bree already mentioned. But I just got lucky and got into this job through happenstance, and it gave me time to start thinking. What I saw immediately was... I think I started this job in '91. I just passed 30 years. Yay. Had a little lunch with the dean, and it was really sweet. So it was a good ways after I had been in law school all those years, and seeing all the unhappiness there. When I got into teaching, I realized nothing has changed. Nothing. And I thought, "Okay, well, I've got some time here. I'm going to try to write about it." Actually, the first article I wrote was in '99. I'm not on tenure track, so writing all that negative stuff is a little tricky for me, but I figured, honestly, what the hell? I wouldn't mind going back to being a prosecutor or a lawyer. If they don't like me, they can just get rid of me, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut. But the first one I wrote was in '99, and it was called What We're Not Telling Law Students - And Lawyers - That They Really Need to Know. In that article, I was just going from my experience, but I was saying we really need to research this. And then shortly after that, just, again, through happenstance, I ran into a fabulous empirical psychologist who was willing to work with me, Ken Sheldon. So, off we went. BREE: There you go. I really relate to what you're saying. I graduated from law school in 1989, and then had the opportunity, about 15 years later, to go back and lead a clinical program there, and it was the same thing. I saw students were still unhappy, stressed out, everything happened around a keg, alcohol flowed through every event. And then actually, when I got to the lawyers Assistance Program and went back to law schools talking, 10 or so years later, it was the same thing, there just hadn't been any shift. I want to talk to you a little bit. My experience with you, my first Larry Krieger encounter... When I started working at the Texas Lawyers Assistance Program in 2009, I came across your booklet that spoke to me so loudly, it was The Hidden Sources of Law School Stress, in which you openly wrote about the dark side of the law school experience, and it just rang so true for me. I was so impacted by that. Tell me what it was like during that period of time to write about these things. It's like sort of the emperor has no clothes, you were going out proclaiming. Just the same truth at the heart of the matter in the profession. How was that received? LARRY: Well, good question. That book's been a thrill for me and me. It turned out that half the law schools in the country and also in Australia and Canada, more than half of them have used the book with their students in bulk. So, that was a thrill. I'm writing a new one now. I'll explain why I decided to take a new tack. But hopefully, that'll be out at the end of the summer for fall students, if I'm lucky. The first thing I started doing before I wrote that is I started talking to clinical conferences, because I'm a clinical teacher, I teach litigation skills. And every time I would give a talk on this well-being, I never saw any other talks on it. It's so wonderful to see the movement now. When I started doing this, it was weird. But rooms would always fill up. There were so many teachers that would say, "This is so important. I wish I'd heard this when I was in law school." And I would say, "I wish I'd heard it law school." BREE: Me too. LARRY: Right. So somebody needed to start saying it. So that was really good. And then our dean of student asked me to give a talk to an early orientation group one summer here, that came pre [inaudible 00:15:49] law school, and I gave this little talk, and it really went well. What I did is I... This is where the booklet came from. I asked them, "So what are you worried about? Let's list everything you're worried about on the board, everything you're afraid of." And then we're going to shoot it all down, one at a time. So they listed it on the board, I explained why they shouldn't stress about it, and then I woke up the next morning [inaudible 00:16:14] you know that was really a lot of good things. And it all came from them, I thought I had to write this down. So I sent out a little summary to this listserv that I had started by then on humanizing legal education, and people wrote back and said, "Oh, can I use it? Can I use it? Can I use it?" And I said, "Okay, I got to put this into a publication." So I was already getting a lot of positive feedback from my community, which was the community of people who actually care about the well-being and happiness of... and sanity, really, of law students and lawyers. I've learned to focus on the people that are supportive, I just don't focus on the other people. [crosstalk 00:16:56]. BREE: Words of wisdom. CHRIS: Well, Larry, obviously, we're shifting a little bit in the podcast here to a three-part series focusing on research, and we just would really enjoy focusing now on your 2015 seminal work that really helped set the stage for the entire well-being movement. Your work, What Makes Lawyers Happy? A Data-Driven Prescription to Redefine Professional Success Redefine Professional Success was really at the forefront. It was a large research project that you conducted with Ken Sheldon. Tell us about the survey, what inspired you to do it, who you surveyed, just setting the stage for what you ultimately found. LARRY: Sure, Thanks, Chris. That came out so well, too. I was shocked at how well... After we publish that, I had a lot of people from different journals and the press [inaudible 00:17:54] and they asked me if there are any surprises in there. Really, the main surprise was that we were right. Everything we predicted came out, and even stronger than I would have imagined. I really encourage folks who are listening to this, take a look at this study, because there's a graph in there of the results, and you can see it in a picture. It's so striking. It's on SSRN, Social Science Research Network, ssrn.com, and it's called What Makes Lawyers Happy?. But what came out of it was that success does not make lawyers happy. That's why The New York Times had such a buzz with it. BREE: Right. LARRY: We were actually able to quantify exactly what's making lawyers happy, and we were able to show, with numbers, it's not the money, it's not the partnership, the junior partners were not any happier than the senior associates in the big firms, not even a bit. Even though they were making 70% more money, and they were partners now, nothing changed. The idea came from because we started researching law students before that, and we were in some of those journals you mentioned with the institutional denial and understanding the negative effects, all that business. I wanted to be sure that what we found in law students actually was going in the direction that the studies predicted, and that lawyers were suffering from the same exact problems. So it really took seven years to get that study done, because I had to get bar associations. Five state bar associations agreed to participate and put their bar members through this survey. I got CLE credit assigned to the lawyers- BREE: Wow. LARRY: ... who were willing do it because it was a long survey. And then one of the states backed out at the last minute, a really big one. So otherwise, we'd have had 10,000 lawyers instead of 6,000, but results would have been identical. But I think they thought it's going to be too hot politically. BREE: Right. LARRY: I think they were afraid that we were going to show what we ended up showing, which is everything that the profession thinks is important, actually isn't important, other than helping clients, and everything that the profession thinks isn't important, like spending time with your family and taking care of yourself, actually is important, and those are the things that's going to make you happy. So, it took years to get that research in but, but we pulled it off. BREE: I see it was just sort of... The findings are just bombshell findings for me. I actually printed out, and I'm looking right now at that graph, and it is so incredibly demonstrative. When you're looking at what really moves the dial on subjective well-being or happiness, are things like autonomy, relatedness, internal motivation, the intrinsic values. So those are long bars on the graph. And then you get to income, class rank, making partner, Law Review, and the bars on that graph drop by like 75% or something. It is just striking visually to see this. Can you talk just briefly a little bit about this divide between the extrinsic and intrinsic values, sort of digging into the secret of happiness? LARRY: Yeah, great point. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm actually looking at it. I did a follow-up booklet to that, Hidden Sources of Law School Stress, that extended out to lawyers too, after this study came out. I have a few of those left. I'm trying not to sell them much anymore, and I'll tell you why at the end here. But it also has that chart in it. It's called The Hidden Stresses of Law School and Law Practice, because they really are hidden stresses. They're mis-assumptions. What these bars mean, is basically, that the human connections that we make, if I could put it in a nutshell, the human connections that we make are everything for the happiness of a lawyer or a judge. They are everything. What these buyers stand for is our connection to ourself, autonomy. Really, the way we measure it is integrity or authenticity. Are you a whole person? Are you true to what you say? Do you follow your own values, or are you two-faced? The negative stereotype of lawyers would be anti-autonomy and anti-integrity. So that's the number one factor, are you well-connected with yourself? And who is, in modern society? What is ourself, even? [inaudible 00:23:00]. And then the next one's obvious, relatedness to other people. Are you closely connected with other people? Not are you around them? Not, do you tell them what to do? But do you feel a close intimate connection with them? The third one and the fourth one have to do with work, do you feel competent at your work, and are you motivated to do your work because you care about it? In other words, is- BREE: Right. LARRY: ... are you connected to it? Not just, are you doing it to pay the bills, but does it give you meaning and purpose in your life? Does it give you joy? So those are the top four, and then autonomy, support, relationship to supervisor. So those are the things. They're way up there as far as predicting well-being. If you don't have those, you're not going to be happy. BREE: Right. LARRY: These numbers are so huge. And then when you get down to made partner, like I said, it's .00. It had no effect on the lawyers, at all, being on Law Review, what all the law students get the most depressed about. .00 and for the layers, it had no effect. Income is very modest, it's .19. These others are .65. BREE: I mean, you just turned it all on its head, Larry. First, when I would see these, I would think I... I would question the validity of the study, almost, because it's so striking against what we're taught and inculcated to believe. But it's a huge set of people that you surveyed, so I'm a believer. It also resonates with me. There's what we've been told, but it resonates with me because it's my lived experience. I believe it, because that's... what I experienced is true, what you found. So, anyway. LARRY: Yeah, thanks for that. If you look at scriptures since time began, in any culture, whatever, they all say the same thing. BREE: Right. LARRY: Right? BREE: Yeah. LARRY: All the music that sells tons and all the movies that are so popular, it's all about love, not money. We actually did a factor analysis. Again, I got lucky. My brother's a math genius, PhD type neuroscience person, and when he saw these results, he said, "Oh, you should do a factor analysis." I said, "What's a factor analysis?" He said, "Well, tell Ken Sheldon. He'll know." You can see I've been led by the nose all the way through my life in this. So we did a factor analysis, [inaudible 00:25:35] in a nutshell, looks at all these top factors for well-being and what my brother said, and it turned out to be true. So those are so big and so close in numbers, that it's going to turn out that they're really saying the same thing. They're not actually five different things, they're going to be one. One thing that's more fundamental. So Sheldon, it took them five minutes when I emailed him, and he said, "Yeah, he's right. There is one thing that's accounting for most of this variability in all of them." He said, "Good luck. Now you have to figure out what it is. I'm just a psychologist, you're the lawyer, because Matthew won't tell you that." Over the years, I did, I think, figure it out, and I've already explained it to you, it's the feeling of connectedness. I tried to think, what is it that makes me feel good when I tell the truth, or when I do what I think is important to me, or when I hug someone, or when I do work that matters, or when I look at a sunset and I feel joy? What is it that they all have in common? It's feeling connected to life. More or life? So I think that's the key to everything going forward, is how do we get lawyers to think bigger, make the box bigger. Because the box we grew up with, that we assumed was going to work does not work. This research shows it so clearly with numbers. We have to get outside that box and think bigger for ourselves. CHRIS: Larry, you've obviously studied this in the context of lawyers, but I just... It's hard not to think about this and say what you've learned about lawyers is really the fact that we are human beings before we are lawyers, and if we take care of ourselves and the relationship and the connectedness... In your study, you talk about what a profile of a happy lawyer is. You could probably replace that with a profile of what a happy person is, and it's going to be equally applicable. LARRY: No question. Actually, that's how we set up the study, is we had all these hypotheses based on research on "normal people", or regular people, not lawyers. That's how we had set up our studies of law students to start with, is using self-determination theory, which had never really been tested on lawyers. That's what I meant when I said, I was just surprised how well it all bore out. These numbers are enormous. Correlations with happiness for each of these factors is like two thirds of a perfect correlation. If you have any one of those five, you're way up there already. But if you're missing any one of the five, you're really missing a lot. So, yeah. Actually, toward the end of the study itself, again, on ssrn.com, I talk about how lawyers are normal people. This is exactly what we would get with normal people. I got to say, I'm a little bit proud about this study because I don't think there's another one that quantifies it like this. This was a another bold step. Once we were getting these results, I asked Ken, I said, "Sir, is there any way we can actually measure these out, not just with P values, which is a probability?" Because they were all highly significant, so they all looked the same. But to show which ones are the strongest. He said, "Yeah, there's these Pearson correlations, these standardized correlation." So he sent me some articles to read about that. And I said, "Let's do that." That's how you actually get these numbers. Because you can't really compare... Bree, you mentioned, you can't really compare how much money you make with how close you feel to your children. They're on two different scales, one's in dollars, and one is in subjective warm and fuzzy feelings. So we were able to do those comparisons and show, for example, that earning more money is a .19 correlation with happiness, whereas having integrity, what we're always pushing lawyers about, is a .66. It's three and a half times as strong. We had to do that with the mathematical conversion into standard. So he was able to do that. Like you said, Bree, I expected to get just hammered once this study came out by people saying, this is garbage, and your methodology is garbage and this and that. Haven't had a single complaint about it, I think partly because every single thing we looked at in the study... And there's probably 50 or 60 correlations in here that people will be interested in like, what about having children? What about being married or a long term relationship? What about how many vacation days you take? What about how big a city you live in? What about the rank of your law school? We were able to compare all those, and everything came out consistently. So each of the findings confirmed each of the other findings. BREE: Right. CHRIS: Larry, first of all, you should be proud of your study. Again, I think it was more, ultimately, reaffirming than anything else, what many of us suspected. So, hey, let's take time to take a quick break. We certainly want to come back after the break and talk about implications of the study, some advice that you have, and then where you're going on the research front from here. So let's take a short break, and we'll be right back. — ADVERTISEMENT: Your law firm is worth protecting, and so is your time. ALPS has the quickest online application for legal malpractice insurance out there. Apply, see rates, and find coverage, all in about 20 minutes. Being a lawyer is hard, our new online app is easy. Apply now at applyonline.alpsnet.com. — CHRIS: Okay. Welcome back to the podcast. We have Larry Krieger here, who published a seminal study, What Makes Lawyers Happy?. Larry, I'm curious, if you had an audience of a group of big law CEOs, HR officers, based on what you've learned, what words of advice would you give to them about having and nurturing successful lawyers? Because obviously, successful lawyers are the key to a successful firm and are, I think, the foundation of, ultimately, serving society as problem solvers. What advice would you have? LARRY: It'd probably be what I'm telling you two. You're CEOs of your organization. [inaudible 00:32:42] being proud of the study. I'm really smiling here so big while I'm talking to you all, because I'm really happy that it came out the way it did. It's wonderful, because I think it's helpful for people, if they take a look at it. I've already intimated what I would want to tell people, is we have to think bigger. Look, when I went to law school, this all started for me. I guess I was somewhat instrumental in getting it going in other circles and in legal education in particular. It started for me because I came with a different perspective. I came from outside the legal perspective. I had gone to college, I'd gone into the military, I'd seen some serious life-threatening situations, and some soldiers who didn't make it that I was transporting here and there. I lived in different countries. I not only took meditation, but I actually taught meditation. So I came with an outside-the-box perspective. And then when I came to law school, I said, "Oh, this box is too small. We have to think bigger. People are not coming to law school expecting to be happy. You've got to think bigger about your life." It was like a merit badge to be so stressed and stay up and be studying and having big circles on your eyes. I don't even want to be around this. This is just bad thinking. The more powerful you are, the more you know what it takes to be happy, usually. Now, that may not be true in our political system anymore. Those people are not happy, I don't care what party you're in. But as you become more successful, you should be becoming more happy. If you're not happy, you're not successful. There are great quotes from great philosophers that happiness is the highest form of success, and that has to be true. So first of all, I would tell CEOs, and I also tell law students the same thing, the highest form of success you can have is to really be deeply, consistently happy. If something sad happens, be sad, be in touch with your feelings. Everything you're doing, you went to law school, why? To become happy. You're making money. Why? To make you happy. You got married. Why? So you'd be happy. You had children. Why? Right? You're going to retire. Why? You'll be happier. Everything is for that, but we put it aside and get lost in the details. BREE: I want to ask you about your current research, and we'll make sure we have time to talk about that. It sounds like you're doing a bit of a pivot in your focus. Tell us about that. LARRY: I think is that the research is so helpful, it will challenge people. Because they may think, "Oh, my gosh, I've spent all my time doing this, and now I need to shift." You just need to make an internal shift, keep doing what you're doing, because you're good at it, but stop thinking that winning or being the greatest is going to make you happy. Just keep doing it because you're good at it and you're competent at it, and you can help people. That will make you happy. So it's this connectedness to self, to others, and to purpose that shows up in the study as being so strong for making people happy. If you don't have it, you're simply not going to be happy. That's what these numbers mean. So once we get there and we accept that, then I started thinking, "Well, how can I really teach my litigation students? Because they're stressed out, they're trying to learn this high pressure stuff, and they're going to lose lots of cases, just like I did. And I need to get them ready for that." So I started thinking, "Well, what's the most important connection that we could have?" And it comes right from that factor analysis, it's really our connection to life. Our connection to life. When we first got this research, and then the analysis, I thought, "Well, what's the difference between me feeling well-connected to you and caring about you guys, and the difference with me making lots of money and feeling well-connected to my money?" Why isn't that so satisfying? The answer is, there's no life in it. There's no life in it. I mentioned this to my minister, my little church I go to, and he told me this great quote from Thomas Merton, that love is an intensification of life. Love is an intensification of life, a wholeness. I looked it up. And I realized, yeah, that's what's making these lawyers happy. They're connecting with their own self, which is life, they're connecting with the life of other people that they care about. So life is connecting to life and reverberating back and forth. In my slideshows, in my PowerPoints, I use an image of a power cord that's plugging in at both ends, and you see electricity going. That's our life. So the more you plug into life and connect to it, the happier you're going to be. So that's one big piece of it. I'm trying to actually get Ken to do another study with me on spirituality and religion, showing that people who feel connected to whatever they believe, might be God or a higher authority, or this or that, if they feel connected and close to it, they're happier people than if they feel a fear of it, or like it's judgmental and this and that. So far I haven't got him there, but I will. I'll keep after him. But I think there's another area of science now that's so important for lawyers, which is the old power of positive thinking from the 1950s, Norman Vincent Peale. But it's turning out to be scientifically really true. Epigenetics, neuroscience, neurobiology, biochemistry. There's a huge body of science now that when you think positively, you feel good, and when you think negatively or you have a negative belief, you feel bad. You can think of the optimism and pessimism research. Same thing. Optimist is just somebody with a mindset that everything is good, even if it sucks. "I got a flat tire. Well, that sucks, but I'll go have a cup of coffee. I got AAA. I'm lucky, I'll call AAA. I'll call and tell them I'm going to be late," and they're fine. Whereas a pessimist has the same flat tire, but has a different mindset and decides now life sucks. Not just this sucks, but life sucks, I suck, and it's never going to get better. BREE: Right. LARRY: So it's the exact same flat tire, it's the exact same client that got convicted of a DUI or got custody, whatever it is, but people frame it in different ways. The way they frame it makes about a 2,000-point difference in your biochemistry. 2,000 different chemicals in your brain and your body, depending on if you have a positive thought or a negative thought. And then that structures how you feel, how you work, how much inflammation you have, whether you're depressed, whether you age, or stay young, and whether you get the raise and the promotion or not, because people actually like being around you, and so forth. So really pushing that now, that people, we need to basically... We have two big things we need to do. First of all, we need to locate our life, and we need to connect to it. Of course, this is a lot of mindfulness and meditation stuff. But that first research shows how important it is to find life in what you're doing. If it doesn't have life, don't do it. [inaudible 00:41:01]. And then both inside and outside. And then the second thing is manage your thoughts proactively. We're so smart, but we have a tendency to think negatively. [inaudible 00:41:16] pessimistic way of thinking what can go wrong? BREE: Right. LARRY: So I'm really coming around, and I'm going to write a paper on this, it's coming pretty soon, about, first of all, work-life balance, real quick. I'll spend just a minute on each of these, because I know we're getting close on our time. Work-life balance is great. I don't think it's worked. The reason it hasn't worked is because nobody's finding life. We're saying we shouldn't be working all the time, let's have more life, but nobody really understands what life is. It's not going out on the golf course and getting aggravated. BREE: Wow. LARRY: It's not spending lots of time drinking. That's not life. It's like, you have to find your life, and then you have to express it to other people, and you have to find it in them, and let them express it to you. So it really involves going deeper inside taking care of your health, and being mindful and finding life. So I've been teaching law students and others, taking just simple meditation practices to do that. And then the second key thing is manage your thoughts proactively. The other sort of talisman we have besides work-life balance that I think is not working well is stress management. Stress management is way better than stress mismanagement, or unmanagement. But stress management, as a talisman, presumes we're going to be stressed. Why do we have to be stressed? To me, that's dumb thinking. You've got to think bigger than that. I actually just did a survey, it was just a random one, no IRB approval, but it's not going to be published, just to prove the point. I want Ken to research this with me, as well. I sampled a bunch of law students, one, two and three hours, just asking them, what did you think law school would be like? That's all. Give me one word. What did you think law school would be like before you started, and what do you think law practice will be like now? One or two words. So they had no bias [inaudible 00:43:34]. 70% of them said stress, burnout, anxiety. That's the mindset, even coming into law school. BREE: Right. LARRY: What this new research says, if that's what you expect, that is what you'll get. In other words, when you get a big assignment, now it's all about, I'm so stressed. I was telling my wife this morning, and then I'll close here, I'm going to get to talk to Bree and Chris today, and hopefully, some lawyers. I could be all stressed about this. I have so much work to do, I don't have time [inaudible 00:44:06]. Or I can say, this is a wonderful opportunity. It's going to be the same talk, either way. What you think it's going to be determines those 1,000 positive or 1,000 negative chemicals flushing through your body and your brain for the rest of the day. So we have to learn to be positive about it, and so we got to get rid of stress management. I would call it thought management, belief management. Just stop looking at the hours of stress. One other quick note. We do have a study that's going to probably be published in about six months, we're just submitting it in the next week or so, that shows that it's not actually the long hours that's making lawyers unhappy. It's not the long hours, it's the wrong work. People who like their work, they work more hours, they actually enjoy it. And the people don't like their work, when they... they're just as unhappy whether they're working long hours or not. So, we need to shift our focus on to find life inside yourself, embrace it, be grateful for it, connect to others, share your life, and think bigger, expect to be happy. Don't expect to be stressed. Because if you expect to be happy and start every day like that, you're going to be happy. Is garbage going to come up? Sure. People come to you because you're a lawyer, they have problems, if you're in that practice. Well, okay. So, let's help them with their problems as much as we can, and then let's go home happy. If we didn't fix them, it wasn't our problem, it was their problem. So we have to have that boundary there and appreciate ourselves. BREE: Larry, thank you so much. It's such a joy to hear you speak, and your point of view when you're thinking about these things. Again, going back to... really just confirms, I think, what I know and what we all know in our gut, in our heart about what makes life worth living. So thank you for that. It's a bit revolutionary, and we need you right now, we need thought leaders like you, and so I'm really excited to hear and read your studies that are coming out. I commend everybody, and I'm going to... We'll make sure that there's a link in the transcript of our podcast. But do take a look at the study, What Makes Lawyers Happy?: A Data-Driven Prescription to Redefine Professional Success. Again, it is really the work that kicked the current well-being movement off, and launched many other research projects that came from that. I've always thought that it is not... I think our listeners can hear that you are not ego-based, you're humble man. So there was not a lot of promotion of this study. I've really felt passionate about... In kicking off this series on research in this area, we had to start with you, because you are the Godfather of this area, Larry. So thank you so much, and we will be back in the next couple of weeks with other researchers to shed light on, what is the cutting edge thinking in this area? Chris, thank you too, for being here today, and take care everyone. We'll talk to you very soon. CHRIS: Thank you.  

Rachel McConnell In Rachel McConnell's world, if content strategy is the engine, then content operations is the oil that keeps it running smoothly. Rachel leads one of the biggest content operations in the world, a team of 100 content designers and editors at BT, a large communications services company in the UK. Her team is a mix of content professionals from both UX and publishing backgrounds who work across a variety of products. This gives her plenty of opportunities to optimize their internal systems and plenty of ideas for both formal training programs and informal knowledge sharing. As her team increases its capabilities and design maturity, they also help raise the digital maturity of the whole company. Rachel's bio Rachel McConnell is a content designer, strategist and consultant who's used to building and leading content teams. She's worked with brands such as Deliveroo, M&S, John Lewis and Virgin Holidays and also trains UX professionals in UX writing. She's currently content strategist at BT and was the content strategy lead for Clearleft. Rachel is the author of "Why You Need A Content Team." Follow Rachel online LinkedIn Twitter Medium RachelMcConnell.me Video Here's the video version of our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBIBwhWwiYA Podcast intro transcript This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 93. Rachel McConnell leads a big team of content designers and editors at BT, the huge British communications services company. Her content operations include about 100 folks, spanning UX practice, editorial publishing, and content management. She focuses on creating and optimizing efficient business systems and helps her team members execute on BT's content strategy with regular trainings as well as structured opportunities for team members to learn from each other. Interview transcript Larry Swanson: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 93 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I'm really happy today to have with us Rachel McConnell. Rachel is a content design manager at BT, and a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. and BT would be like the British version of Cox or Xfinity or any of those big... What is it, like phone, internet? Whatever the batch of services that you provide. Rachel McConnell: Yeah, telecoms and broadband. Yeah. Cable, that kind of thing. Larry: All that kind of stuff. Welcome, Rachel. Tell the folks a little bit more about what being a content design manager entails. Rachel: Thanks, Larry. Yeah. Hi, everybody. I am a content design manager at BT. That means I'm responsible for the content designers within a specific alliance. My alliance, which is a group of triads and squads, they have a particular focus on capability. My role is I specialize in content operations, which means I'm essentially responsible for looking at how the whole of the content team is operating from always a working point of view and also from a process point of view, capability point of view, and helping improve how everybody's working and how they're delivering work essentially and improving efficiency and effectivity. Larry: Right, and that implies a large organization. How many folks are you... How many content designers do you have there? Rachel: Our team is quite big. I'm pretty sure it might be one of the largest content design teams in the UK actually. We have about 99, 100 content people. About 60% of that is content designers and the other 30% are content editors. They're more like traditional content managers working within the content management system. Larry: Great. Content design is one of those fields where... In content strategy in general it seems like everybody comes from some kind of publishing or media background, but in content design you're as likely to have design-oriented people as you are editorial folks. Are there different considerations when you're managing a hybrid team like that?

Rachel McConnell In Rachel McConnell's world, if content strategy is the engine, then content operations is the oil that keeps it running smoothly. Rachel leads one of the biggest content operations in the world, a team of 100 content designers and editors at BT, a large communications services company in the UK. Her team is a mix of content professionals from both UX and publishing backgrounds who work across a variety of products. This gives her plenty of opportunities to optimize their internal systems and plenty of ideas for both formal training programs and informal knowledge sharing. As her team increases its capabilities and design maturity, they also help raise the digital maturity of the whole company. Rachel's bio Rachel McConnell is a content designer, strategist and consultant who’s used to building and leading content teams. She’s worked with brands such as Deliveroo, M&S, John Lewis and Virgin Holidays and also trains UX professionals in UX writing. She’s currently content strategist at BT and was the content strategy lead for Clearleft. Rachel is the author of "Why You Need A Content Team." Follow Rachel online LinkedIn Twitter Medium RachelMcConnell.me Video Here’s the video version of our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBIBwhWwiYA Podcast intro transcript This is the Content Strategy Insights podcast, episode number 93. Rachel McConnell leads a big team of content designers and editors at BT, the huge British communications services company. Her content operations include about 100 folks, spanning UX practice, editorial publishing, and content management. She focuses on creating and optimizing efficient business systems and helps her team members execute on BT's content strategy with regular trainings as well as structured opportunities for team members to learn from each other. Interview transcript Larry Swanson: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 93 of the Content Strategy Insights podcast. I'm really happy today to have with us Rachel McConnell. Rachel is a content design manager at BT, and a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. and BT would be like the British version of Cox or Xfinity or any of those big... What is it, like phone, internet? Whatever the batch of services that you provide. Rachel McConnell: Yeah, telecoms and broadband. Yeah. Cable, that kind of thing. Larry: All that kind of stuff. Welcome, Rachel. Tell the folks a little bit more about what being a content design manager entails. Rachel: Thanks, Larry. Yeah. Hi, everybody. I am a content design manager at BT. That means I'm responsible for the content designers within a specific alliance. My alliance, which is a group of triads and squads, they have a particular focus on capability. My role is I specialize in content operations, which means I'm essentially responsible for looking at how the whole of the content team is operating from always a working point of view and also from a process point of view, capability point of view, and helping improve how everybody's working and how they're delivering work essentially and improving efficiency and effectivity. Larry: Right, and that implies a large organization. How many folks are you... How many content designers do you have there? Rachel: Our team is quite big. I'm pretty sure it might be one of the largest content design teams in the UK actually. We have about 99, 100 content people. About 60% of that is content designers and the other 30% are content editors. They're more like traditional content managers working within the content management system. Larry: Great. Content design is one of those fields where... In content strategy in general it seems like everybody comes from some kind of publishing or media background, but in content design you're as likely to have design-oriented people as you are editorial folks. Are there different considerations when you're managing a hybrid team like that?

grip: grasp on an object. kind of stuff: things of a similar type. lots of: a lot of, many. pay as you go: a plan where you pay only for what you use. schedule: make an appointment. stay in shape: maintain a healthy body through diet and exercise. stuff: things. throw in: add something for free. treadmills: exercise machines. whole bunch of, lots of: many. work out: exercise. workout: an exercise sessoin. dialogue ______________________________________________________ Larry: Hi, Fitness World gym. Larry speaking. How can I help you? Lia: yes, I'd like some information on your gym memberships, please. Larry: sure. We have two different types of member: You can pay as you go, where you pay $5 every time you want to use the facilities and $5 for every class you attend. Then there's the monthly plan where you pay a flat rate of $45 per month. With the monthly plan, you can come in as often as you want and go to as many classes as you want. Both plans require an annual fee. Lia: sounds good. What equipment do you ahve? Larry: All the usual stuff. We have a cardio room with treadmills, ellipticals, all that kind of stuff; a weight room with all sorts of weight machines and free weights. Lia: What classes can I take? We have yoga, pilates, aerobics...there's a hole bunch of them. Check out our website for information on the class schedules. Lia: is there a pool? Alan: No, but we do have a sauna, cafe, and babysitting facilities. Lia: Thats great! What about the hours? Larry: We're open every day from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. Would you like me to scedule a tour for you? Lia: Hey great. Can you throw in a free day pass too? Larry: Sure. Drop in anytime, and I'll give you day pass. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/taylor1673/support

Words Commies use to control you ♦ Why danger is better than safety ♦ The greatest fish story is about BIRDS ♦ Death by selfie ♦ The war on men/boys ♦ The war on strip joints ♦ ChiComs on Mexican radio ♦ Under Armour’s punk CEO and his war on fun ♦ Hollywood’s Walk of Feces ♦ The vintage T-Bird driving, pointy desert femme who ensorcelled Larry ♦ Warping time with Larry ♦ All this and more, in The Best of Larry, 2018.

Shelley Keith Shelley Keith is a digital strategist with Modern Tribe. Her pragmatic approach to content governance aligns stakeholders on the "why" behind content decisions and uses techniques like "guerrilla governance" to get the content outcomes that executives demand. Shelley and I talked about: her work on the web since 1994 and her role at Modern Tribe her definition of content governance her pragmatic approach to working with organizations that don't have the resources to do formal governance plans how she ties governance training to accessibility, SEO, and other outcomes that stakeholders care about how focusing on accessibility can work as a "magical ticket" by linking with concerns like SEO and web writing style the importance of focusing on the "why" - why issues are important- before the "how" of implementing them in the CMS the components of a pragmatic and functional governance program how workflows can become an obstacle in understaffed content programs how considering culture, pulling together key stakeholders, and having a plan can help content teams overcome obstacles the importance of transparency in her work how she uses "guerrilla governance" techniques (like stealth A/B testing) to deal with line-in-the-sand issues like accessibility how content governance fits into overall governance in an organization the importance of their website to any organization nowadays - "Your content is who you are" - perhaps the most important conversation starter getting beyond policy and procedures and using storytelling to get at the real issues that underlie governance the importance of building baselines and showing success: "If you can't show success, then everybody else's opinion is as good as yours." Shelley's Bio Shelley Keith's career has taken her from a passion for technology to passionately advocating for the people who use technology. Spending many years working in higher education digital communications and marketing made her hyper-aware of the challenges at the intersection of successful web content and practices and the "other duties as assigned" quagmire. Today she's a digital strategist for Modern Tribe tackling enterprise content strategy and technology projects. Her web governance work is focused on higher education and non-profits with some enterprise lessons mixed in for good measure. She's made her Web Governance Through On-Demand Online Training program scripts & slides freely available and regularly posts her latest slide decks in a moderated Facebook group you're welcome to join. Video Here's the video version of our conversation: https://youtu.be/RKNtvLJFjHM Transcript Larry: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 31 of the Content Strategy Interviews podcast. I'm really happy, today, to have with us Shelley Keith. Shelley's a digital strategist at Modern Tribe, a digital agency that helps people put their websites and other stuff together. So I'll have Shelley tell you just a little bit more about herself. Shelley: Thanks, Larry. So my role at Modern Tribe is digital strategist, which essentially means I'm a professional generalist. I work with a really amazing team of developers, project managers, designers, to build enterprise WordPress implementations. That's pretty much where our focus is. And my background, I came, I've been working on the web since like 1994. I came out of hosting and development and I worked in higher ed for about 15 years before I moved to Modern Tribe. Larry: All right. Shelley: I've done this my entire professional career. Larry: 94, that's going back there. I remember that was just, I think Mosaic came out the year before or something. Shelley: I have very fond Netscape Navigator memories. Larry: Okay, that's right. Yeah, the good old days. I want to talk today about content governance. You do that in the context of your overall digital strategy role at Modern Tribe.

Shelley Keith Shelley Keith is a digital strategist with Modern Tribe. Her pragmatic approach to content governance aligns stakeholders on the "why" behind content decisions and uses techniques like "guerrilla governance" to get the content outcomes that executives demand. Shelley and I talked about: her work on the web since 1994 and her role at Modern Tribe her definition of content governance her pragmatic approach to working with organizations that don't have the resources to do formal governance plans how she ties governance training to accessibility, SEO, and other outcomes that stakeholders care about how focusing on accessibility can work as a "magical ticket" by linking with concerns like SEO and web writing style the importance of focusing on the "why" - why issues are important- before the "how" of implementing them in the CMS the components of a pragmatic and functional governance program how workflows can become an obstacle in understaffed content programs how considering culture, pulling together key stakeholders, and having a plan can help content teams overcome obstacles the importance of transparency in her work how she uses "guerrilla governance" techniques (like stealth A/B testing) to deal with line-in-the-sand issues like accessibility how content governance fits into overall governance in an organization the importance of their website to any organization nowadays - "Your content is who you are" - perhaps the most important conversation starter getting beyond policy and procedures and using storytelling to get at the real issues that underlie governance the importance of building baselines and showing success: "If you can't show success, then everybody else's opinion is as good as yours." Shelley's Bio Shelley Keith's career has taken her from a passion for technology to passionately advocating for the people who use technology. Spending many years working in higher education digital communications and marketing made her hyper-aware of the challenges at the intersection of successful web content and practices and the "other duties as assigned" quagmire. Today she's a digital strategist for Modern Tribe tackling enterprise content strategy and technology projects. Her web governance work is focused on higher education and non-profits with some enterprise lessons mixed in for good measure. She's made her Web Governance Through On-Demand Online Training program scripts & slides freely available and regularly posts her latest slide decks in a moderated Facebook group you're welcome to join. Video Here's the video version of our conversation: https://youtu.be/RKNtvLJFjHM Transcript Larry: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 31 of the Content Strategy Interviews podcast. I'm really happy, today, to have with us Shelley Keith. Shelley's a digital strategist at Modern Tribe, a digital agency that helps people put their websites and other stuff together. So I'll have Shelley tell you just a little bit more about herself. Shelley: Thanks, Larry. So my role at Modern Tribe is digital strategist, which essentially means I'm a professional generalist. I work with a really amazing team of developers, project managers, designers, to build enterprise WordPress implementations. That's pretty much where our focus is. And my background, I came, I've been working on the web since like 1994. I came out of hosting and development and I worked in higher ed for about 15 years before I moved to Modern Tribe. Larry: All right. Shelley: I've done this my entire professional career. Larry: 94, that's going back there. I remember that was just, I think Mosaic came out the year before or something. Shelley: I have very fond Netscape Navigator memories. Larry: Okay, that's right. Yeah, the good old days. I want to talk today about content governance. You do that in the context of your overall digital strategy role at Modern Tribe.

How to ID a secret psycho ● Where to meet psychos ● The 2,600 hidden sidewalk toilets in Hollywood ● The dead star all living stars hate ● Where does YOUR state rank, psycho-wise? ● Are you a psycho ready to snap? ● Why Silence of the Lambs is the dumbest movie ever ● Who describes Hollywood better, Hunter Thompson or Larry? ● All this and more in this all-psycho, all-the-time episode.

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Sandy Jen Co-founder and CTO, Meebo Date: January 16, 2012 [Intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT, and with me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Larry, hi. Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm so happy to be here. This is a great series. It has a tremendous impact on young women, parents, bosses, and we're very excited. Lucy: We're not going to disappoint listeners. We're going to have a great interview today with Sandy Jen, who's the co-founder and CTO, that's chief technology officer of Meebo. Meebo is a great company and we have interviewed somebody from there before, Eileen Wherry. We had just a great time talking with her so we needed to go back around and catch up with Sandy. Here's this great tag line that I've heard used with Meebo. It's "together is better." That's a great tag line because Meebo integrates all social networks and communication channels into a very simple single solution so that it makes all those different channels a whole lot easier to use. I was poking around on Tech Crunch, Larry, and found out that-- probably these numbers have gotten even higher since I did it in November-- you have 250 million Unique's a month. Wow! That's astonishing growth. Here's some other stats: now delivering 5.4 billion page views a month, up from 2.8 billion a year ago. Larry: That's a "B"? Lucy: A "B". Larry: Wow! Sandy Jen: That's a "B". [laughs] Lucy: That's a "B". Sandy leads engineering as the CTO, of course, and builds the team responsible for all these great products and solutions, organizing the technology and the innovation and thinking very creatively about how you scale Meebo's architecture. Welcome Sandy, we're really happy to have you here. Sandy: Really great to be here and thank you for calling. Lucy: So why don't you tell us a little bit, other than those astonishing growth statistics, what else is going on at Meebo? Sandy: Let's see. We launched in 2005 so we're about six years old, which I guess is a pretty long time for a startup. We still consider ourselves a startup even though we're roughly 200 people now. We started with three, so it's also been a big growth in terms of just the number of heads we have on staff. Our goal, from day one we started out as a web instant messaging client and we wanted to connect people with other people that were important to them. Back in 2005 a really cool way to do that was chatting and instant messaging. We think as the web got a lot more big and a lot more complex and people are a lot more savvy now on how they use the web. Their expectations are a lot higher on how they connect with people and generally just consume content. So now what we're doing at Meebo, six years later, is connecting people with other people, but also people with content that's important to them. It's been an interesting journey for us. We started out as a web IM client, like I said, and now we're this distributed social bar. You mentioned our growth, which we're really proud of. The growth is now primarily due to this bar that I mentioned. We're on over 8,000 sites around the Internet that you see today and we reach about half the US Internet population, which is pretty cool as well. It's a really cool technology platform to play with to bring great consumer products and experiences to everybody that can touch the bar and see the bar. That goes beyond IM. So, we're experimenting with a bunch of ideas and how to really create a cool user experience using our distribution. Just to give you guys a little bit of a teaser we expect them to come out relatively quickly, in the next month or so. So keep an eye out. Larry: Oh good. We will. Lucy: Early in 2012. We love asking questions about entrepreneurship, as everybody who listens to these now, and we're about ready to get started with that. But I wanted to read a quote from Sandy from a recent entrepreneurship panel, because I think it's going to set up how great an interview this is going to be. "You may not feel as if you are qualified or confident enough. The biggest insight in this entrepreneurial journey of mine was when I realized that someone I knew, who was not super smart,"- I love this- "who failed the same tests I did had started a company, and I realized I could do it too." I loved it. I just love that quote, so I had to start with that. So, off we go. Sandy, we love talking to technologists, and especially CTOs. Share with us how you first got into technology and you've already told us a bit about cool technologies, but any other crystal ball you've got, technologies, on the horizon? We'd love to hear them. Sandy: I was lucky enough to grow up in a household where both my parents were engineers. It wasn't like a foreign thing growing up to be surrounded by engineering concepts like computers and physics and things like that. Getting started, I started pretty early in high school. Again, I was lucky enough to go to a high school that had actually four years of computer science classes offered. Lucy: That is amazing. Sandy: Yeah. [laughs] I started programming as a freshman in high school. Obviously, it wasn't the only thing that I did. I really enjoyed art as well, and English and a bunch of other topics. After I finished high school I was lucky enough to get into Stanford, they offered a couple of choices in Integral Computer Science classes. The first of which was if you've programmed before you could take an accelerated course and squish two quarters into one. Or you could take the two- quarter class that that would introduce you to the concept. So, I was like, "Well, I've done the programming, I'll go and take the accelerated course." Little did I know that those you take that course have the reputation of just doing computer science throughout their career. So, I took that course and here we are today. [laughter] Lucy: Here you are. Sandy: Exactly. I think that he quote that you mentioned was a really, really important one for me, where, going from a suburb high school to a big university like Stanford, one of the thing that's really eye-opening is that there are a lot of smart people in this world, and when you first meet a lot of these smart people, you're like wow, I don't know if I'm really that smart. When you go through your classes, and you may have gotten straight As in high school, but you may have gotten some Bs and Cs in college, it's a little bit of a hmm, like how good am I, right? I think for a lot of women in particular, that question tends to be maybe not explicit, but it does run strongly in the actions and the behaviors that they exude. For me, the biggest light bulb moment, like you said, was seeing someone who I thought, quote, was "as dumb" as I was do something extraordinary, and that was very inspiring. In my logical computer science brain, I was like, there's not a lot of difference between me and him, what made him do that? I think that was the biggest insight for me. So fast-forward six years now, when I talk to young entrepreneurs, a lot of them are like, "Oh, I have this great idea, I want to do this thing, I need to get the time, I need to do the business plan, I need to get the technology in place," and they keep putting up these road blocks. These are self-imposed road blocks. The difference today in terms of technology is that it's so easy to get started, like you have all these Cloud services that are really free and really cheap, you have all these resources available. You could get something launched, a mobile app, in like a week. That is extraordinarily powerful for a young, very ambitious entrepreneur who has an idea. In terms of crystal ball stuff, it's really hard for me to say, but the web is where everything is going, and whether that be mobile web apps or, websites that you get transferred to mobile, like all the things that people are doing these days, there's no concept of sort of a download or an application or even something that you sort of have to buy and pay for, there's all these services and online Cloud things. All those things are very, very interesting, and they're very powerful, and they're so easy to set up that I feel like that's where you'll see a lot of young people innovate, because it's so easy. That's really exciting for me. Larry: Boy. Lucy: It is really exciting. I can remember, I asked for my first promotion at work when somebody who I thought was a stupid... [laughter] Lucy: I really appreciate that. Larry: Yeah. Well, there you have parents that are engineers going through high school and enjoying a lot of different topics; why are you an entrepreneur? Maybe the second part is, what about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Sandy: I want to go back a little bit. I went to an entrepreneurial organization at Yale called YEI, and I spoke with some of their students there, and one of them said, the interesting thing that I've found was that a lot of young people, especially young women, do entrepreneurial-type things, but they don't self-identify as an entrepreneur. They do things like, "Oh, I started a social club," or, "I started this meetup," or, "I gathered all these really cool people and they got to talk to each other, and now we do this on a regular basis," or, " Hey, I've started this event-planning thing that gets like all these really young people together." Those types of actions are actually very entrepreneurial. I would identify them as entrepreneurs, but they don't, and so they don't seek out help to take the next step. For me, I fell into entrepreneurship. I had the opportunity and I was like, "Wow. This is a really big risk." I'm generally more risk averse, and then I'm thinking, "Why the hell not?" Putting roadblocks in front of yourself like, "Oh. I'm not smart enough." "Oh, I need to do this." Or, "Oh. I didn't go to business school." Or, "Oh. I didn't do X, Y, Z." There's always excuses. I think that once I actually identified myself as an entrepreneur, and I took off with that, the most important thing that helped make me to continue to tick is that self confidence. It's the ability to think, "Oh, wow. I can really do this, and I can learn from this, and I can be respected for this, and the fact that I did this." Even if I have a team around me, the fact that you put yourself out there and were willing to take the risk to do that is amazing. Even today, six years later after we launched, I'm sometimes like, "Wow. Holy crap. I'm an entrepreneur." Or, "Oh my God. I'm the CTO." Because when you take a step back, it's like, "Wow. I was able to take a risk." Or, "I was able to put myself out there more than I would have before, and it really paid off." Even if the payoff is in monetary terms or the success of the company, the fact I overcame this self doubt, and, "Oh my God. I'm so stupid," or, "Oh. I'm not good enough." That in itself is very rewarding on a day to day basis. I think that's the thing that really makes me tick. Lucy: That's pretty interesting. The things we tell ourselves, right? I know. We had a person who we interviewed a couple of months ago, who said, her piece of advice was, I hope I get this right, "Never compare yourself on the inside to what you see on the outside of others." It's the way you feel. It's all about that same thing. Along the way, your career path so far, you've obviously had people influence you. Maybe your parents, the people at your high school. I'm still blown away by four years of computer science, by the way. Who are your role models now? The types of people who have influenced you. Any thoughts on that? Sandy: I was asked the same question at a panel a few weeks ago. My first answer was there's probably two types of people. The first, obviously, would be my parents. My mom was actually an engineer. A funny story, she actually helped me with my computer science classes in college when I had a bug. That's cool. People were like, "Wow. Your mom did that?" I'm like, "Yeah. Totally." Then, facetiously, but I really did mean it were, I called them my stupid goofy friends. Those friends are the one that I mentioned who, also sucked at physics like I did, and also failed that particular test like I did, and had trouble with that problem just like I did. They started companies, and they did it at a time when there was no money going around and the VCs were very wary of startups, given what had happened in the boom. They got funded, and they started a company. They worked really hard, and persevered, and were able to create a company that got somewhere. Them telling me that of course you can do it, like why wouldn't you do that? Or, hey, when I was feeling depressed or really unhappy with my job, because I was thinking, I'm coming out of school and I'm really happy about what I did in school, but now I'm in the working world, and I don't know what I want to do, they're like, "You should just pick something that you're passionate about and actually just go for it." Like there's no reason why you can't. Inspiration comes in many forms, and I think for me personally, the strongest was just the support to say yes, you can do it, and belief in me even when I didn't believe in myself. I think that's extremely important, I think, for anybody to have that kind of support network, because you can be successful and you can be rich, have all sorts of accomplishments in the world, but it's really lonely to celebrate them by yourself. Like to have someone else or a team or friends to celebrate with, and had said, "Oh," you know, "I believed in you from day one, and look what happened," is so much more valuable to me than anything else, so... Larry: All right, now, with all these wonderful things that you've been through, what is the toughest thing that you've experienced in your career? Sandy: Oh, man. [laughs] I probably would say hiring. When you start a company and you get all this money, people actually expect you to do something with it. [laughter] Larry: Yeah. Lucy: That's true. Sandy: You can't just have the money in the bank and be like oh, I got funded, and now it's just sitting there all nice and pretty. You have to build a team, and you're like OK, I'm 20, when I started, maybe I was like, you know, 23, and, you know, you're a 23-year-old who was a sophomore engineer for two and a half years, you've never managed anybody, you've never hired anybody, you've barely interviewed anybody at your old company, and now you have to build a top-notch tech team to support a product that you kind of hobbled together in your spare time and got funded for, and now they're giving you millions of dollars to go and make it big. You're like holy crap, what am I supposed to do with this? The toughest thing was actually figuring out how to hire, how to evaluate people, how to build a culture for the first 12 people in the company, and also getting over the fact that you're interviewing people who have been in the industry for 20 more years than you have, and they're expected to report to you, because you're the founder and you're the boss. So getting over that was huge and very challenging. I think, as you move more towards your career, like it's six years later at Meebo and I've interviewed hundreds of people now, sometimes there's still that little part of you that when you meet someone with a lot more industry experience, you're like, how do I really make you respect me? Because I may not come off as being like the big hotshot, you know, CTO kind of person. That's probably been the toughest, because evaluating other people is actually really, really hard. Lucy: Yeah. That was a very interesting answer. I don't believe we've gotten that answer to this question before. But I think it's very interesting. A plug for an organization we work, Women 2.0...writing a book on certain things like this. Like, hiring or interviewing. I chose the question, "How do you let somebody go?" Larry: Yeah. Lucy: I figured no one would answer that one. [laughter] Lucy: I figured nobody would. But I did it, I wrote it. If you were sitting here giving advice to a young person about entrepreneurship, in addition to some of the advice that we've filtered out of this interview so far around, "Don't make artificial excuses, have confidence in yourself," what are the kinds of things you would say to them? Sandy: One is, to be confident in your own idea. A lot of people have this notion that they have this really cool idea and they're like, "It's really neat, I should really act on it." Then they start to protect it. They baby it, they hide it, they keep it secret, they don't tell anybody. They hide it in the closet and they try to work on it on their own. It seems counter-intuitive but one piece of advice I would give people with ideas, with wanting to start something, is to share the idea as much as you can. Get it out there and get feedback because if you work in a vacuum you're not going to understand how to adapt quickly. I guarantee you, and I've said this many, many times to people, if you have an idea, idea's are never formed in a vacuum, and 20 other people have the same idea and they're already working on it. So, everybody has a different take on an idea, they have a different slant, they have a different perspective, they work on it in a very different way. But the more the idea is out there and the more you can iterate on it the better the idea gets. The more attuned to your audience it can be, whether that be, like I said, an ice-cream store, to a consumer Internet web company, having people give you honest feedback is so critical to creating a really big part. When I tell this to people, they're like, "Really?" I'm like, "Yes. Absolutely. Don't hide the idea." It seems really weird but it's a really good piece of advice that we got early on that helped immensely. Lucy: That's interesting too. Even if you have a good idea and you hide it. You get out there and as soon as you put it out there someone with more money, they're going to do it too, they're going to copy you. Sandy: People are always afraid of people copying them. I'm like, "It's OK." One of the early lessons we had was, if you make five or six changes to your UI, let's say I change the button shape or I move the position of a particular radio button or something like that, there were reasons why I did that. The reasons were for a number of user issues or feedback or A/B tests that we did. So, we moved the button over there. But if someone else went straight ahead and copied those pixels they don't understand why we moved that button. So, they don't get the learnings of why we did that. Without the deeper understandings of the decisions that you make a straight copy can work for a certain period of time but it won't work ultimately. That's the counterargument I give to people who say, "Oh, people will copy me." I say, "Well, generally it's the shallow copy, it's not really deep copy." Larry : Based on all the other things you've said during this interview it should be obvious, but from your perspective what characteristics do you think have given you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Sandy: Hardworking. You can have as much influence and networking and friends in high places as you can, but if you don't work hard you can't really get there. Also, I didn't have this in the beginning but I think it developed a lot, would be self-confidence, but a sense of humbleness, in a way. Being OK with your decisions and not regretting the decision that you make. But at the same time being open to learning from mistakes, learning from other people who have different opinions and put that into your own system of beliefs. But being able to take a step back and evaluate that from a very non-judgmental perspective is important as well. It's a really long answer but, basically, always listening and asking the right questions, sometimes can be much more powerful than knowing all the answers. Having that perspective as you go from venture to venture or interview to interview is really important. A lot of people that I meet, who I have issues with just working with, like, some entrepreneurs can come off really cocky. I think that's to their detriment, because they may be really smart and really brilliant but if they don't take a step back and think about, "How am I perceived by others? How can I better myself to make other people want to work with me and share knowledge?" I think they're missing that. For me, I've really, really focused on doing that well. That goes into not being just an entrepreneur but as a good manager, as a good leader of the company. I don't have to have all the answers. But as long as I can ask the right questions and get the right issues surfaced, that is extremely effective. Lucy: Really important. This thing around listening and sometimes I say it's around, even, intuitive listening, because when you're listening really well you actually hear things that people didn't say but actually imply. Larry: Yeah. Between the lines. Lucy: Between the lines. There's a lot of value and there's a lot of mischief between the lines. You mentioned, Sandy, about hardworking. Of course, then we all have things we like to do outside of work, I'll put quotes on that. You mentioned your friends and people to celebrate things with. How do you strike that balance there? Sandy: It's really important. In the beginning of Meebo, I was like, "Work, work, work. Work is awesome, Meebo is great." All I would do is work, work, work. Then at a certain point you're like, "Wow, I'm really tired." [laughter] Sandy: The tiredness may not actually come from the lack of enthusiasm or lack of passion for the idea, but you're just physically and mentally very, very tired. If you're really tired you can't be productive. One of the things that I focus really hard in Meebo is work-life balance. I rock-climb, I do yoga, I play Ultimate Frisbee, I run, and those to me are just as important as the work I do at Meebo. So, I have this thing, you work hard play hard, and they're equally important. Because if you don't play hard and balance the "work hard" part you're going to tether one way or the other. Burning out is painful. You see it in an engineer, you see it in people who work all the time. You get cranky, you get demotivated and this spiral that keeps going and feeding on itself. You want the spiral to go the other way. The happier you are and the more balanced you are, the happier, more productive you can be and the more imaginative you can be with the work that you do and you can get more ideas that way. Again, super, super important. I will kick my employees out sometimes from work early and force them on vacation if I have to to get them to have more of that balance. Lucy: It is really important. We heard of some new research, the listeners might find interesting, that there is research that shows, especially in this space, in tech space, and I'm sure it's true in any creative space, that you really can't work longer than eight hours on something without starting to make the crossover mistakes that make it unproductive. Sandy: I can do that. [laughs] Lucy: Yeah. Which is pretty interesting. Larry: Sandy, I love that thought. Yes. Sandy, with all the things you've done, the billions of page views and millions of users and everything, you've already achieved a great deal. What is next for you? Sandy: That's a good question. My personal goal for Meebo has always been, I should be able to go to any city in the world and say the word "Meebo" and people's eyes should light up and they should know exactly what I'm talking about. People are doing that with Facebook a little but they don't do that with Meebo and I'd love for that to happen. Personally, that's self-interesting too. I started out as a software engineer and then you learn how to manage, you learn how to be a leader. Now, as a CTO my role is divided now where I do a lot of internal management. So, team building and hiring and personal development of the people that work for me. But also, the external part of that. So, reaching out to other folks, going to industry events, speaking on panels. As someone who does both, you can't really do both really, really well if you're pulled in two directions. So, I've been learning to really love the external part. This interview, for example, is really fun for me. I really like going to meet young people outside and encouraging them to start their own ventures. I really like mentoring young people, I like going to these entrepreneurial conferences and inspiring young folks. I really love that part and so I'd love to see more of that in my career and my personal development. Obviously, my commitments and my heart is at Meebo. So, trying to find a good balance there is something that I'm trying to do right now, it's a personal goal of mine. To be honest, I don't know what I'll be doing in five or six years. Hopefully, Meebo will be wildly successful and we'll be looking at trillions of page views instead of billions. But once you start your own venture it's hard to go back to work with somebody else. So, either starting something else or seeing where Meebo goes, I don't know. I really don't know. Larry: Well, we're going to track you and follow you. Lucy: Thank you very much for your passion around inspiring more young people to pursue entrepreneurship, technical endeavors, young women to pursue computer science. You're an awesome role model. That's exactly what NCWIT is really trying to do. It's so important. So, thank you for that. Sandy: No worries. This is really fun. Lucy: OK. Well, great. We enjoyed talking to you. I want to remind listeners that they can find this and other interviews at w3w3.com and ncwit.org See you around, Sandy. Sandy: OK. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Sandy JenInterview Summary: Meebo’s Co-founder and CTO, Sandy Jen recently discussed gaining the self-assurance to start a new company: “You may not feel as if you are qualified or confident enough…The biggest insight in this entrepreneurial journey of mine was when I realized that someone I knew who was not super smart, who failed same tests I did, had started a company, I realized I could do that too.” Release Date: January 16, 2012Interview Subject: Sandy JenInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 24:55

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Shanna Tellerman Product Line Manager, Autodesk Date: October 3, 2011 [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of NCWIT, National Center for Women & Information Technology. We're working hard to encourage more girls and women to pursue computing, education and career paths. This interview series with women who have started great technology companies is very inspirational. and to be having great advice for all entrepreneurs in terms of starting companies. With me Larry Nelson, w3w3. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson: Oh boy! It's a pleasure to be here. This is a great, great series. I know your listeners want to pass this interview along to others and you know would be interested and they can listen to it at couple of different places that we'll give you at the end of the show 24/7. Lucy: Today, we have another great person to interview. The talent just keeps coming. Today, we're talking to Shanna Tellerman who is currently at Autodesk, Cloud Services and Applications, but before that she was Founder and CEO of Wild Pockets. Shanna is in a post- acquisition mode. That's a very exciting thing to have a company that you are the founder of, be acquired. Wild Pockets is an end-to -end open source solution that supports creators through the life cycle of 3D game development. I can't wait to hear more about it. It was Shanna's first technology company out of graduate school, but she attended Carnegie Mellon University, which is just a great, great school. She attended the Entertainment Technology Center. Doesn't that sound like great deal of fun? Shanna welcome. We're really happy to talk to you today. Shanna Tellerman: Thank you, glad to be here. Lucy: Tell us a little bit about Wild Pockets/Autodesk and what's happening. Shanna: My company was Wild Pockets. We were building out a 3D game engine that you could access in a web browser. What we were trying to do is make the ability to build games, 3D games specifically, easier and more broadly accessible to anybody. When my company first met with Autodesk, Autodesk is the creator of 3D tools and all kinds of products for the media world, the entertainment world, architecture, manufacturing, engineering. They saw what we were doing and saw that we had an idea that could be applicable to a lot of their different tools and products here at Autodesk. There was a lot of synergy between our teams and the company. Ultimately they decided that we should join them. Now I work at Autodesk. I'm the Product Line Manager for our new Autodesk cloud product line, something that's coming out this fall. It has been started through the summer last year. It's a really exciting new space for Autodesk. We're doing some awesome new things. Lucy: Well, that's pretty exciting. We don't often talk to people who are in that post-acquisition mode, so maybe a sentence or two about what that was all like. Shanna: This Autodesk acquisition of our company was a pretty quick experience. We had been talking to them and working with them a bit over the course of two years. Then, when I met with one of their directors of engineering, he was really an exciting person to talk to and visionary here at Autodesk. Then I would think up on what we were doing and what he was doing on a fairly regular basis. We did that a couple of times over the course of two years. Finally, they said, "We really want to move forward. We want to make their team part of our company." Once they said that, the process went really quickly. It was really about working together, figuring out the right terms, making sure investors were happy, et cetera, but we all had the end goal in mind. Within a couple of months, the whole deal was closed. Our team in Pittsburgh can move into an Autodesk office in Pittsburgh. I was in San Francisco. I had moved into their San Francisco Office. Before I knew it, I was completely part of the Autodesk Company. Lucy: Surprised. That's very good. Congratulations. Shanna: Thank you. Lucy: Shanna, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about how you first got into technology? Everybody is always curious to know what was it that first sparked your interest. Shanna: I first got into technology during college actually. I had gone into college for fine arts, of all things. I was painting and drawing and doing very traditional art, but Carnegie Mellon is an extremely practical and tech-heavy school. It's one of the number one computer science schools across the country and a great engineering program. They have a lot of interdisciplinary programs. Even though I was in the art school, it didn't take very long before I was introduced to all of the amazing things going on in the computer science program. Specifically, I had seen this one presentation from this course called "Building Virtual Worlds." They did a big presentation for the whole school at the end of their semester. It was really like a show they put on. People were standing on stage, wearing these 3D virtual reality glasses, and taking you through like video games that were being projected live. They were playing through it in real time. I looked at that. I was like, "This is the coolest thing I have ever seen. I have to go to that class. I have to take that class, because they combine artists with computer scientists, so I would get to build these worlds, but I didn't have to know how to program them." That was really what drew me in to technology. I had played around with some of the different editing programs, Photoshop, and other kinds of programs, Director, and a little bit of the 3D tools, but it was the end result. It was looking at the incredible things that could be produced. They were both visual, but also interactive that drew me in. Lucy: Well, Carnegie Mellon does that so well. They are so well known for interdisciplinary curriculum and computing, a great place to be drawn in, I must say. One more technology question for you. When you look out, your purview of the technology landscape, what technologies do you think are particularly interesting or up-and- comer? Shanna: Well, I'm going to have to say it's really all about the cloud right now. That's what I'm excited about working on it at this very moment. It's about not having to be tied to one particular device or your laptop or your computer or your phone, but it's about being able to take the thing you're doing anywhere that you want to be. You're working on a document. You can access it from or your phone or your iPad even, you're playing a game and you log in here and then log out and then you log back in from your TV. It's in the same place and remember who you are. The cloud is providing incredible opportunities for us to be super- connected and also things that people don't really usually think about, which is it can process in compute intense data at a rate that a single machine can't. Some of the really cool things we're doing here at Autodesk includes rendering in the cloud. Rendering when you take like a 3D model and you create a photorealistic version of that 3D model with all of the perfect lighting and the materials that were just like they do in the real world. Usually you'd be an artist and you'd be sitting at your computer and maybe building a model of a house. If you want to do a rendering a bit to show the client what that house is looked like, then you had clicked the render button and then you would probably log out for the evening and let it run for hours while it creates that photorealistic rendering. When you send that to the cloud, you can scale up. You can do renderings in minutes or they can take a few hours, but you keep working on your machine, because it's not processing locally anymore. That to me is just the tip of the iceberg of the incredible things that the cloud can do. Lucy: Speaking of rendering, too, I remember about eight or nine years ago watching something I thought was pretty simple get rendered, and it did, it took forever. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Speeding this stuff up is good. Larry: I'm more empathetic than I want. Lucy: Yes. Larry: Shanna, can you hear me? You came out of Carnegie Mellon and you formed a company. Why did you become that entrepreneur and what is that about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Shanna: I became an entrepreneur totally accidentally. I came out of Carnegie Mellon. Actually well I was still within Carnegie Mellon. I was working on a project in graduate school that to me felt like a really had legs. It was something that we had prototyped and we had shown to our end users. They were excited about it and they wanted to start using it in the real world. I said, "Oh! How can we make that happen?" The university was not planning to continue to develop it into a commercial product. They build prototypes, they build samples, but they don't commercially distribute software. I started looking at can we get grants to the university to commercialize this or is there another path? Before I knew it, I started talking to local business people and investors. They said, "I think there is a commercial opportunity here." At which point, I said, "OK. Well, let's see if we can make this happen." Really it was my eagerness to try to get something from prototype to reality that drove me into entrepreneurship. Larry: Wow! Lucy: Well, I suppose that the accidental entrepreneur is may be more common than we think. Larry: Yes. Lucy: You know for sure. Who influenced or supported you to take that path? It sounds like people, perhaps at CMU or in the local community who you had talked to, were encouraging you to take that technology outside the university. Who else influenced you? Shanna: I had a bunch of great mentors along the way. The very first one was somebody named Randy Pausch, which perhaps you've heard. He is famous for the book he wrote and the talk he gave called "The Last Lecture." He was actually the person who ran that class that I talked about Building Virtual Worlds. He was the reason I got into technology. He was influential through my whole course into starting a company and supporter all along the way for everything I was doing. He was one of my first mentors and I recommend seeing "The Last Lecture" if you've not seen that, because he unfortunately passed away from cancer a few years ago. But before he got sick, he was an incredible teacher. Another mentor for me was someone named Jesse Schell, very well- known in the game industry. He's done a bunch of talks on something called "Gamification" and he worked at Disney Imagineering and he's now a professor at the Entertainment Technology Center, he has a game studio. He was one of my early advisers, an adviser/co-founder when we started this company. He was somebody who really was there in the early days supporting me and encouraging me and helping me figure out how to get this company up and running. Very quickly after that, I met somebody name Jake Witherell. He had been a former entrepreneur who was a local person. He was just an informal adviser and guided me through all kinds of the bumps and chaos of starting a company in the early days. Then in the later days of the company, I moved from Pittsburgh where I started the company in the area of Carnegie Mellon. I moved out to San Francisco where I started working with venture capitalists and investors in Silicon Valley. There was one woman that I met out here who was actually a Carnegie Mellon grad as well. She was an accomplished entrepreneur as well as an accomplished venture capitalist. Her name is Cindy Padnos. She was an amazing mentor for me. She helped me establish myself out here. She connected me to people to invest in the company. She also connected me with lots of partners and lots of opportunities. A really incredible woman. Lucy: She is incredible. She has a venture fund that she's forming called Illuminate Ventures. She's just a fabulous person. Larry: All of these different things that you've done, graduating and starting your own business and getting acquired. What is the toughest thing that you've had to do? Shanna Tellerman: There's a lot of tough things when you're an entrepreneur. Stacking them up and saying the toughest one is a hard thing to pick, but I would say that actually it had to be letting people go. One of the toughest things that you have to do is manage a team. A team of people works best together when the culture and the environment is right. Oftentimes you'll hire somebody and they may be really talented or really smart or really good in some way, but they just aren't fitting. They aren't fitting the team or they aren't doing the work they need to do. To have to make the call that that person doesn't belong in the company anymore is the hardest call that I've ever had to make in my life. We've had that happen a few times. I really liked and respected the people, but the fit wasn't right. I just knew that that kind of a bad seed on your team can disrupt your progress. Lucy: I think too that generally the people themselves know that they're not a fit. They're going to be happier someplace else. That's what I always used to tell myself. "I'm doing them a favor." Shanna: You do think that. You think after the fact, I hope that their next opportunity really makes them look back at this and say, I'm glad that things ended and I'm glad I was able to move on, but in the moment it is such a difficult thing when the person is unhappy. I'm one of those people who really thrives on energizing people and getting them excited and making them motivated and happy. To deliver a message that's the total opposite is really difficult. Lucy: It is difficult. I think almost everybody that I had to let go ended up being the better for it and came back and told me so. Larry: There you go. Lucy: I can tell so far in listening to you that you have a great deal of passion about the technology and about energizing people and having a great team. What other kind of advice would you give a young person about entrepreneurship? What other kinds of things do you think are really important? Shanna: The first thing that's really important is just doing it. I think that most people stumble on the idea that they're not ready, that they're not prepared, that there's one more thing that they need to do first, the time isn't right, etc., etc. My personal feeling is if you've got an idea, you're motivated to make something happen of it, the best thing in the world you can do is go for it. You're going to definitely make mistakes. You're definitely going to fumble. It may not work out, but that's not the end of the world. It's really that journey and the learning experience that you get from it that's the most meaningful. The worst thing you can do is sit around and wait until everything feels like it's perfectly ready to go. Getting yourself out there and getting something started is the best thing that you can make happen. The other thing that I would say is surround yourself with incredible people. It's the people who have been around me that have made me who I am and have made these opportunities possible. I never could've done this on my own. I've always looked to a great team of people to work with, to a great team of people to advise me, to a great team of professionals to work with whether that be legal or whether that be HR or accounting, you look for people that you trust and that you know are going to be partners through what will hopefully be a long and very fruitful adventure, but could also be difficult and strenuous at times. Larry: Once again, you've been through a number of different things. I'm very fascinated by it, as well as your company. What are the personal characteristics that you have that makes you an entrepreneur? Shanna: I think entrepreneurs are generally curious people. They are people who get excited by the world and are excited by the possibilities of what they can do to change the world. They believe in themselves that they might have the opportunity to make that happen. I think there's a bit of confidence you have to build as an entrepreneur. There's a bit of fear of nothing. You have to believe that anything is possible and that your wildest dreams could come true. I also think you have to be extremely dedicated and extremely motivated because it's a lot of hard work. You need to focus and you need to get a lot done. You're probably the kind of person, if you're an entrepreneur, who has always over-committed or overdone everything that they've tried to do because that's just the personality that you have. But number one is really that curiosity or you're the kind of person who wants to explore and wants to try to make things happen. Lucy: I think that reminds me of the word "invention," too. You're curious. You take it one step. You see what happens. You take it another step and you just keep pushing forward with that relentlessness to really get it to move. You mentioned hard work and being dedicated. That gets us to our next question around having both a work life and a personal life. How would you integrate the two? Some people would even say balance, although I think we've come to realize that there is no such thing as balance in entrepreneurship. How do you address that in your own life? Shanna: Well I think the first thing is you have to love your work, because if you're an entrepreneur you're working a lot more than most people work. It does seep into every area of your life. If you don't like what you're doing you're not going to be very happy. That's the first thing I recommend. On top of that, I do think it's important to structure in balance. My first year or two I found that I was always on, I was always stressed, I was always anxious. I didn't really take time off for myself. It had a negative result. It made me more tired. It made me less focused at times when I needed to be focused. Eventually, by the 3rd or 4th year of my company, I started realizing on the weekends I need to take a good day or so where I'm not checking email and I'm not working, maybe even two days, which for an entrepreneur is a lot, but you need that time to rest and to get your mind off of everything going on. For me, I'm pretty active. I do that through sports. I've done triathlons. I've made a lot of friends out in the Bay area who also do triathlons. It's such a beautiful place to live in, the Bay area. There's so many places to explore that I just found being outside and being around people really rejuvenated me and put a lot of balance into my life. Larry: Wow, I could get tired just watching you, I think. Lucy: I think you might be an extrovert. Larry: Lucy, she does a lot of running too. Lucy: And I'm an extrovert: Larry: You have achieved a great deal for such a young person. I have to say that while you talked about the cloud and the things that you're doing with the company right now. What do you see is next for you? Shanna: I'd like to start something again at some point in my life. Right now I'm at Autodesk. I'm loving what I'm doing here at Autodesk. If it keeps going as it is today there's a good chance I will stay here because we're getting to start all kinds of things within the structure of a big company. I could also see an opportunity where something comes along and starting another company just makes sense and I dive into that and grow something from the ground up again. I'm pretty open. I usually let things come to me and roll in as they happen. I take the opportunity when something feels right to jump on it and try it out. Larry: Wow. I love it. Lucy: I think that's great. One thing I wanted to mention when you said that Shanna has accomplished a lot. I just have to give her a shout out for being named "Business Week's" best young entrepreneurs in 2009. That must have felt real good. Shanna: Maybe. Lucy: Yeah. One other thing too that I want to thank you for is your participation in organizations around women and computing and thank you for that. Great organizations like Astia, Women 2.0, Girl Geeks, etc. Thank you for your participation with those groups. They are most excellent. Thank you Shanna. We really enjoyed talking with you. Larry, do you want to remind listeners where they can find this interview? Larry: Absolutely. A couple of really neat places, ncwit.org, up there for sure, also at w3w3.com. You can listen to both 24/7. You'll see it in our podcast as well as our blog. Lucy: Shanna, thank you very much. Shanna: Thank you very much. This is definitely the area of passion for me. I hope that more girls do get into technology. I love opportunities like this. Thank you for having me. Lucy: Thank you. Larry: Thanks for being here. Shanna: OK. Thank you. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Shanna TellermanInterview Summary: Shanna Tellerman describes herself as an “accidental-entrepreneur” who turned a course project from Carnegie Mellon University into reality in the form of her first tech company, Wildpockets. The company focused on democratizing access to game development by providing a cloud hosted game engine. It was later acquired by Autodesk Cloud Services and Applications, where Shanna currently works as the Product Line Manager. Release Date: October 3, 2011Interview Subject: Shanna TellermanInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 20:42

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Niniane Wang CTO, Minted Date: September 6, 2011 [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of the National Center for Women in Information Technology, or NCWIT and with me is Larry Nelson from W3W3. Hi, Larry. How are you? Larry Nelson: Oh, I'm magnificent and very excited about being here. Lucy: Well we're doing another interview today as part of the NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes series with great women entrepreneurs, people who have started companies and all types of technology sectors and have told us fabulous sectors. I think today is going to be especially good because we have the pleasure of interviewing a Chief Technology Officer... Larry: Yes. Lucy: ...which we always like to do. Today we're interviewing Niniane Wang, the CTO of Minted, and it's a great site. I went there last night to take a look at it and immediately sent the URL to two people who I know are in the world of design. Minted is a start-up out of San Francisco and it uses technology to crowd source graphic design for a global community. It's really a great site. You can go there and discover the work of great designers from all over the world. They have design challenges. People who achieve a popular vote have their designs on stationery and invitations. It's just a really interesting process for getting great new designs out there. Niniane, super cool and fun. What a great site. She's got a great track record at Google and Microsoft and she's now the CTO. Niniane, tell us a little bit about Minted and what's going on there. Niniane Wang: Thank you for that intro. I'm really glad that you enjoy our site. I thought you did a great job of explaining our mission. I t's great to hear that. I joined Minted about a year ago and I've been so happy. I lead the technology team including the engineering and technical operations. As you described Minted is a growing community of graphic designers from all over the world. We crowdsource designs for them in contests. The top ones are then sold on our site as templates where other people can customize and purchase anywhere from business cards, calendars, notebooks, wedding invitations, holiday cards, stationery, anything that has a design and is printed. I'm just very happy to be working with the amazing team here. It's a group of super-capable people who are very passionate. I feel lucky to come in to work every day. Lucy: Well some of our listeners might not know what a CTO or a Chief Technology Officer does. Why don't you say a couple words about that? Niniane: Basically the Chief Technology Officer manages the strategy and execution of technology within the company. For us, it is web software as well as operational software, in terms of keeping the website experience very usable, making sure that the [indecipherable 00:02:57] graphic designers that we service, as well as our customers, will have a world-class experience that is fast and able to help them achieve their goals. Then after orders are placed making sure that the software that lets each order be reviewed by a graphic designer will work smoothly, and then the technical operations of keeping our servers running on our site and internally. Lucy: That's a great job.  Larry: Yes. Niniane: For all of those things I lead the day-to-day operations as well as setting long-term strategy and vision. Lucy: Well, and that gets us to our first question around your experiences as an entrepreneur. How did you first get into technology? A follow-on question which I'll ask just right now, as you look out on the landscape today at technology, which ones do you see on the horizon that are particularly interesting? Niniane: OK. I got into technology by programming in BASIC when I was 5. It was very serendipitous. My parents had immigrated to the US so that my dad could get a Ph.D. in math. They didn't have a lot of time or money and they bought this game console from Radio Shack because we couldn't afford like a Nintendo. We just bought this Radio Shack game console, but it happened to have a BASIC interpreter on it. If you didn't have any game cartridges you could write BASIC programs. They came with a book of BASIC programs. I would just start copying in the programs. It was very visual, so all the programs basically looked like screen savers. They would be lines or triangles, some of the times the triangles move around the screen. I just amused myself this way. I think that learning has to be fun. It was very rewarding and a lot of instant gratification to type in something. I couldn't type yet, so I would just peck and take a really long time to tap in the program, but then getting the visual result was so wonderful. Actually, when I was eight, I went and took this beginner programming class. Then I discovered that I already knew how to program from typing in these BASIC programs, but I didn't know that that was what I was doing. Then once I had learned that throughout growing up, we encountered various people like grad students that my parents knew who thought it was fun to teach me other programming languages. In their spare time, they taught me LISP and I would play around with programming. I think most passionate programmers that I know started doing it because it was so fun. Lucy: You know, I wonder how many programmers got their start out of Radio Shack. [laughter] Lucy: I remember going to the Radio Shack. Larry: At five to eight years old, yes. Lucy: Yeah. What's your crystal ball reading on the technologies of the future. Niniane: Well I'm really excited by the Kindle, for one. I think it's changed the world of books and of publishing and made it accessible to people instantaneously. I've bought ten times as many books because of the Kindle. I carry my Kindle everywhere. I'm excited by disruptive technologies like that. Also for me personally, I like more artistic technologies, things that are very beautiful. I like a lot of these photo apps that have come out recently and a lot of the ways to use technology to create beautiful movies, beautiful modifications to peoples' existing videos and photos and being able to share that easily. Larry: Mm-hmm. Lucy: I like the Kindle too. I just got to hold one for the first time. I'm a little behind. Larry: Mm. Lucy: They're really excellent machines. Larry: She's always on top of things. [laughter] Niniane: Yeah. I guess in this vein I think human-generated content is becoming more and more critical. First we saw user-generated web pages. Then we saw proliferation of user-generated social information, updates of what people are doing. Then photos, statically, and videos, and now I think we are seeing more proliferation of people creating art. I see that as one of the most personally exciting movements that is coming up, of people creating... On Minted, they create these beautiful graphic designs, and I think, all forms of art, like the Kindle, allowing people to publish beautiful novels and works in writing, programs like Instagram, allowing people to share their beautiful photography with each other. A lot of interesting sites cropping up that now that we have passed the survival mode of people sharing functional information with each other, now we're going into, you could say the Golden Age of people sharing beautiful art with each other. Larry: Now I know you're a CTO, but what is it about the entrepreneurial spirit that makes you tick? Niniane: I really like being able to make fast progress. We sometimes have ideas that we then execute within a day, or even a few hours, we can start making progress on those ideas. This time between having an idea and to when it's live in our sight can be very short. I find that very rewarding. Larry: Mm-hmm. Niniane: There's a lot to do. The whole company is rowing one boat together, so people's interests are aligned. It's all about making fast progress toward a really passionate vision that everyone shares. Larry: That's great. That is super. Lucy: Well I think the thing about fast progress is really, we hear that a lot. It's the ability to decide and move I think that a lot of people really like about the startup companies. Niniane: Totally. Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Niniane, who supported you or led you into this entrepreneurial career path? I know you had experience with larger corporations and you chose to then come to a smaller company and help it get its footing. Why? Niniane: Well I was surrounded by many people who have chosen to join a startup or create a startup. Many of my ex-Google friends have started their own startups and were able to talk pretty candidly with each other. I think that many people, too many to list, have really benefitted me by being honest with their own experiences and by showing with their own example how fulfilled they feel by being able to turn their vision into reality and to have a large impact on their startups. Larry: All right. I've got another tough question for you. Lucy: [laughs] With the word tough in it. Larry: With the word tough in it, yeah. Lucy: [laughs] Larry: What is the toughest thing that you've had to do in your career? Niniane: There are actually a couple of things that I would say have both been very tough, both around projects ending in a way that was less successful than I would like. When you work in large corporations, sometimes projects will get cancelled. I would say that project cancellations would be the toughest things that I've experienced, both in my own having to come to terms with accepting that certain visions will not be carried out, and sometimes then having to be the extension of carrying that out even though it's very painful for me having to then carry out the ramifications of that decision. I think that the cases that I can see how events led and my own actions contributed as well. I can see the responsibility that I and the circumstances and other people combined to lead to these projects ending prematurely, but it's always a very painful thing because I tend to really put my heart into the project and fall in love with it. Having something end is like divorce or like your spouse dying. [laughs] It's a very painful process, but I think that that's what happens when you take risks. Overall, I recognize the necessity and I can self-reflect and think about what I can do better in the future. But at the time it's always a very challenging experience. Lucy: I just so resonate with that. My background is in R&D at Bell Labs. That was a very painful part of being on leading-edge projects because they technically could be wonderful, but also ahead of their time or people didn't know how to sell them or the population not ready or perhaps technically they just didn't come together. But, really great technologists do fall in love with their projects. T,hat's what makes them great. Niniane: Yeah, except the fact that then have to tell other people that have also fallen in love with it either users or other team members who are equally in love and who are pleading to have it go on, to be the person to tell them that it cannot, when I myself am also grieving. I think that is also very challenging, but it is a learning experience. Lucy: It is an essential component of leadership, unfortunately, for sure. Well, if we had a young person on the phone and pre-career and you were giving them advice about entrepreneurship, what advice would you give them? Niniane: I would give two pieces of advice. The first advice is a quote that says "Never compare your insides with someone else's outsides." [laughter] Lucy: Say that one more time. That's great. Niniane: The quote is "Never compare your insides with someone else's outside." Lucy: OK. Niniane: The idea is that inside we're all feeling bad or nervousness, or we might be having some tension with someone we're working with that we're working through, but it's causing us stress. From the outside, we all seem perfect and completely on top of everything. If you are looking at somebody from a distance, if you are basically looking at their PR around them, you're not going to see all of their human foibles that they share just like everyone else. What can happen is that, especially as an entrepreneur, you're going through so many challenges and taking risks. If you just look at other people from a distance you won't see they're going through the same thing and you'll feel isolated. It helps if you have some close friends who are going through similar experiences that you can talk to and talk candidly. If you just talk to distant acquaintances, they'll always say things are going perfectly and everything is wonderful. It's important to have close friends you can talk candidly with to feel more supported. The second piece of advice I have is go read a book that I recently read. It's called Touch the Top of the World. It's by a man named Erik Weihenmayer. It's an autobiography. He had an eye disease as a child, and he went blind by age twelve. At first he really struggled and felt victimized and felt, "why me?" That it's so much harder for him to do something basic like walk down the hall. But, then he started to be action-oriented and to learn how to triumph despite this adversity. He started doing wrestling because it's a close contact sport. Then he started doing rock climbing. He then went on to climb mount McKinley. Then he summitted Everest. Now he has become the first blind person to climb the seven summits which is the tallest mountain on each of the seven continents, including Antarctica. Lucy: Wow. Niniane: I read this book and I felt so inspired that this guy went blind and instead of, "Oh I'm going to wallow in feeling disadvantaged in feeling that it's so easy for other people to see the path up a mountain and walk up it," whereas he has to use poles and he has to devise these systems to use sound and to have his climbing partners wear bells and all these complicated procedures, he chose to triumph through them and be action-oriented. I felt really inspired because I think all of us feel disadvantaged in some way. You can either be a victim, I've heard women say, "Oh it's so much harder for women and men do this they get away with it, it's so much more difficult." Or people will say, "I'm so much younger people won't take my seriously," or "I'm much older people think I'm obsolete." Everyone has some way that they feel that it's so much harder for them than for most other people. We could either allow it to paralyze us or decide that we will take the actions necessary to deal with that. That is so fulfilling and inspiring to other people. I think that for me, reading this book and seeing how he actually... All these examples of the painful but fulfilling challenges he went through. I see a very interesting parallel to entrepreneurship. I highly recommend it. Lucy: Wow. Fabulous. Larry: That's great. Now, you've been with huge companies. You're now CTO at Minted. What do you think your personal characteristics that given you the advantage of this entrepreneurial spirit? Niniane: A couple of things come to mind. One thing is a tend to do thing because I love them. Not because I think it would be best for my career or because it will impress other people or it will great in five years, something like that. I think that I really follow my heart. Sometimes nervously. [laughter] . But, I really fall in love with my work. It's very hard for me to do work that I'm not in love with. I think that it actually makes a lot of things easier. Because your gut will help guide you. I really believe in Minted's mission. I think we are helping graphic designers all over the world find an outlet for their talents and be able to get community and make money from it. We are helping consumers find excellent unique designs. Being in love with that mission and with the missions of previous projects that I'm working on really make things easier. It makes it possible to travail all through the inevitable bumps that come along the road because you're in love with what you're doing. Just like when you're in love with your child, it's much easier when your child gets sick. I think that has helped. I would say that the second thing that I have found helpful is the throughout my life there were incidents where people told me certain things were impossible or that I would regret doing them and I'd did them anyway and then they were great. [laughter] Lucy: [laughter] Good for you. Niniane: I skipped three grades when I was growing up. I graduated high school at fourteen and I went to CalTech and graduated CalTech in Computer Science when I was eighteen. A lot of people told me it was going to be bad in so many ways and that I'd be socially outcast or I would romantically have trouble or various gloom and doom predictions. Even along the way, as I wanted to take more advanced courses or start taking college courses when I was in junior high or whatnot, people had all sorts of predictions about how it'd be so bad for me. I felt like they all were not true. They did not come to pass. Seeing so many people say that things were impossible or they would have these bad repercussions and then have them turn out totally false makes me skeptical when people say now that something is not going to work. I think being a woman in a predominantly male industry there are sometimes people who will say similar doubting statements but to me know I'm used to ignoring that tone of prediction because, in my experience, it tends to not come to pass. Lucy: The thoughts are just a downer, right? I mean [laughter] , it just like go away and keep those remarks to yourself. Larry: I have four daughters and they say the same thing. Niniane: Yeah. Lucy: You've mentioned a few times about being in love with your work and it really comes across in how you speak about your projects and about Minted. On the other side of it though, we often have to, should be blending at least a little of our personal time in with work. How do you handle that? The demands of a startup with really being able to hang out with the friends and the family that mean a lot to you. Niniane: I think it's actually a similar philosophy which is do what you love as much of the time as possible. It doesn't necessarily mean you won't do grunt work, because just like with my analogy with the child, if you love your child you will be doing things you don't particularly enjoy like driving them long distances. But, my philosophy is to spend as much time as possible doing things that I really love, whether that is work or picking up a hobby or reading. I love reading on my Kindle. [indecipherable 00:19:51] whatever that is, I think it is good to spend as much time as possible on it. I've actually seen some research that if you focus on what you like to do, what you really feel passionate about doing that you will then become more successful at it because your mind is focused on it a lot. You will gravitate towards things that you are strong at. I think it's actually when you do what you love, it becomes much easier to blend personal life with professional life because you're not gritting your teeth doing something you don't love and then finally being able to go and do other things that you do love. Or trying to stuff down your instincts to stop doing something that you don't enjoy. I think that when you love the things you're doing, it actually becomes much easier to switch between them or to decide how to allocate time between them. Lucy: That's true. Larry: That is absolutely true. You know, Niniane, you have accomplished so much. You've done a great deal with the big companies, which you're doing now. What is it you think you're going to be doing next? Niniane: Well I was intending to keep doing, just keep following my heart and doing what I love. For the foreseeable future we are doing some really exciting things as Minted and making, building off the successes the site has already had to be able to expand this vision and enable more graphic designers and get our designs out to more consumers in various methods. I know some people like to have a five-year plan, a 10-year plan but I actually feel like the best opportunities of my life have come by being open. I wasn't really looking to switch from Microsoft to Google, but I felt that joining Google would be a good experience. I try to just stay open and listen carefully to my gut and then keep doing things that I enjoy. Lucy: Well we can't wait to see what those things will be. Larry: Nope. Lucy: I just think that Minted is such a great thing. Niniane: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this interview. Lucy: Well we enjoyed having you. I want to remind listeners where this is. Although they're listening to us I guess they'd know where it is, but they could pass it along to others. Www.ncwit.org and Larry: W3w3.com. Lucy: Thank you very much Niniane we really enjoyed that. Larry: Thank you. Niniane: Thank you so much. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Niniane WangInterview Summary: Niniane Wang began programming in basic on a game console from Radio Shack when she was just five years old. Now serving as the CTO of Minted, Niniane has come a long way in her technological pursuits. Release Date: September 6, 2011Interview Subject: Niniane WangInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 22:24

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Cathy Edwards CTO and Co-founder, Chomp Date: April 11, 2011 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes: Interview with Cathy Edwards [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of NCWIT, the National Center for Women in Information Technology and we have today another great interview with a wonderful entrepreneur. I'm very eager for this interview because not only is she a co-founder of a technical company but she's also the Chief Technology Officer. I think our listeners understand how much we at NCWIT care about technical women. Very eager to get to this interview. With me is Larry Nelson from W3W3. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm happy to be here, of course. You know one of the interesting things is that we've found over this past few years now is that we have many different people that listen to these shows, business leaders and parents as well as many younger girls who are looking into technology. Lucy: Well, they're definitely going to be interested in listening to this interview with Cathy Edwards. As I mentioned before she's the CTO and co-founder. It's at Chomp, which is a great company. I went and looked at it again today. I just love it. It's a search engine for mobile applications, which if you're like me it's pretty difficult to find all the applications that you can have on your mobile device today. Cathy created Chomp's proprietary algorithm that understands the function of each app so you actually get to search for applications, not just on what they are called but what they do. For example you can search for puzzles, you can search for games, I was searching for gardening, and search for fitness, et cetera. It's a great site. It's a great company. Cathy we're really happy to have you here. Welcome. Cathy: Thank you. I'm really really pleased to be on the line. Lucy: So what's going on with Chomp? Tell us all the latest news. I know that you launched in January of 2010 with a platform for the iPhone and just recently for Android. Give us the latest. Cathy: Yeah. Things are going really really well and the app market, as I'm sure everyone is aware, is really taking off right now. It's kind of interesting. If you look at the stats, the rate at which apps are growing both in terms of the number of apps available and the rate of adoption is very, very similar to the early days of the web. This is really looking like being something that's going to be very very big. And of course as it gets really big people are going to need ways to find those apps, just like maybe in the early days you browsed around Yahoo's directory of websites and saw all the gardening websites on the Internet in one place. After a little while it just becomes too many. You need to start searching for them. We think the same thing's going to happen with apps. Lucy: I think that's absolutely true and I have to say this factoid. My husband has an early Yellow Pages of every web site on the Internet. [laughter] Cathy: That is priceless. That's fantastic. You should hang on to that. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: I know. It's one of our family heirlooms. Cathy: [laughs] Lucy: So I mentioned that Cathy's a CTO and she also has a great technical background. She has worked in industry at Friendster and Telstra working in areas of research related to natural learning and language processing. Cathy, why don't you tell us, based on your technical background, how you first got interested in technology. Cathy: Yeah. I was actually extremely lucky. I'm really grateful that I had these experiences when I was young. I was lucky enough to go to two separate primary schools that both really had a lot of opportunities to actually begin programming. I remember doing my first programming when I was quite young using a program called Logo where you could basically draw pictures, program a little turtle around the screen and draw pictures. I just loved it from day one. Really there was no distinction about "Oh, you're a girl so you can't program." I was really encouraged to get into it. Everything just really grew from there. I continued doing programming throughout high school and did Computer Science as one of my majors at University. I've always kind of been technical the whole way through, but I really do think that it was because I was given some of these opportunities when I was young that I really got into it like I did. Lucy: That's one of the things I'd say we're trying to do here, you know? Larry: Mm-hmm. Lucy: To get girls interested. Larry: That's right. Cathy: Yeah. I just think it's so important, and particularly in contexts that they can really connect with. When I was about 12 years old, I did this competition with the Lego Mindstorms robots, which was this, you had to program this robot to pick up an egg and take it from one side of a track to another. Things like that, particularly when you've got robots and it's fun and you're with your friends, it takes it away from being a nerdy, geeky dungeon thing, if that makes sense. Larry: [laughs] Lucy: Well, based on your technology background, we also like to ask people we interview what's your view of the future of technology? What do you think is going to be particularly interesting, perhaps even over and above what you're doing at Chomp? Cathy: Yeah, well I was going to say it's pretty obvious that apps are going to be a pretty big thing. But I think in general, this kind of post-PC world that we're moving into, computing moving away from a single device that sits on a desktop and into every little object, computing becomes a part of everything that we do. Now we have running shoes that can track how far we've run or a wine rack in our house that can track our inventory of wine. To me, that is a really really interesting future to contemplate. Larry: Mm-hmm. Lucy: Ubiquitous computing. Larry: You betcha. Lucy, you mentioned when you went to Chomp.com that one of the things you looked up was gardening. Lucy: Mm-hmm. Larry: Now I understand why you carried in a shovel to your office this morning. [laughter] Larry: Anyhow... Lucy: No way. [laughter] Larry: Cathy, this is either a tough or an easy question. Why is it you are an entrepreneur? What is it about entrepreneurship today that makes you tick? Cathy: I feel really really privileged to do what it is that I do. I love getting up and going to work each morning. I really think that very few people in the world are in a position where they can genuinely say, "I spend a lot of time working and I love every minute of it." To me being an entrepreneur is about really two things. The first is about creating and building really amazing products. The things that people use and that people love. It's almost like, I don't know, being a carpenter and building a table or something. There's this kind of tangible "I built that" feeling that goes along with being an entrepreneur that maybe you don't get at a bigger company. Then the second piece is about creating and building an amazing team of people and I really love working with people. I have the most amazing team at Chomp. It's just that process of bringing people together for a higher purpose to build this thing. It's really an amazing feeling. Lucy: It's very creative. Larry: Yes. Lucy: Just a very creative process. Along that path of becoming an entrepreneur, who particularly influenced or supported you? Cathy: My parents have just been amazing my entire life. They've been very supportive of my career. They're actually both entrepreneurs, although they're back in Australia and they do entirely different things from what it is that I do. But all through my life I have grown up around this idea of entrepreneurship, and being involved with the family business and just this idea of making stuff happen on your own. I really think it was their influence that has helped me get to where I am today. Lucy: Well,you know, you see them taking notes, risks, and creating something from nothing. That's got to be a very valuable childhood experience. Larry: Yes Cathy: Absolutely Larry: For sure, Now Cathy, just as a little sidebar here. My family and I lived in Australia for three years. Met an amazing number of people there. I just wanted to say welcome. Cathy: Oh, thank you. I love it over here. The start up community is really growing, in Australia. And it's really exciting to see what's coming out of there. But definitely exciting to be in a much more established start up community, here in silicone valley. Larry: All right now, with all the things you have done and the support you have had, and the amazing team that you have been able to put together, what is the toughest thing that you have had to do in your career? Cathy: I actually think that that comes back to managing people again, and the pain. I think learning to manage and lead people effectively, is an extremely difficult thing to do. I think it's actually particularly difficult thing for young intelligent people, who are really used to being in control of what they are achieving, and doing everything themselves. I definitely made a lot of management mistakes, when I first started managing people. Learning to overcome that end, to be good at building a team, is something that I had to focus on. Obviously I still focus on it today. There's obviously a long way to go there. That is probably the toughest thing I had to do. Lucy: Wow, I think there is some hidden advice around what you said, about building great teams, as being necessary in entrepreneurship. What other advice would you give a young person about becoming an entrepreneur, if they were on the phone with us today. Cathy: This is actually a really difficult thing to do, but I think if at all possible, please try and find one person that you can trust to start a business with. My co-founder, Ben Kieghran, has been the most amazing partner, as we have gone through this kind of wild, crazy startup ride together. It definitely has made a big difference, just to have somebody that you can talk through problems with, somebody that you can trust and brainstorm with, and somebody you can have a little freakout to when it all gets a little too much. Not doing it alone I think is very important. Lucy: That's what they do down under. They have a little freakout. Larry: I think I remember those, yes. Lucy: I didn't know what to call them, but now I have words for them. Larry: Now, with everything you've been through, the things that you've been developing, and knowing where your going to grow. What personal characteristics do you have that give you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Cathy: I think I have this interesting combination of extreme impatience on the one hand, but also focus on the other hand. That means I have this bias towards getting things done, I just want to make progress, make progress, get things done. Execution is just so important when your an entrepreneur, that first few months when you just got ideas, and you're out networking, and there's so many things you could do just starting a company. That just like coming back to, "What am I building? Is there evidence that people actually like this?" All of that is just so critically important, that I think that kind of impatience helps me get through that Larry: I love it. Lucy: Yeah, really. Turning to a slightly different topic for a moment, being an entrepreneur is, of course, hard work, all the time seven by twenty four, yet we all are people and have our personal lives as well. How do you either balance or integrate the two. How does that work for you? Cathy: This is a really difficult question, obviously. I think it's something everybody struggles with. My take on it is, work life balance is something that is measured more on a span of years, more then a span of kind of weeks or months. Paul Graham actually has this really great essay where he talks about how economically you can really think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into like kind of five years. I feel in that context there's really no way to work a forty-hour week, and go to yoga every night. Really I see that this is the time in my life where I'm really dedicated on the work side of things, but I also expect there will be other times in my life where I will be more dedicated on the family side of things. Having said that, my New Years resolution was not to work a six-day work week every week. I'm working hard on that at the moment. Lucy: I had that resolution, too, and I haven't done it. Cathy: Very difficult Larry: It is tough. When we lived in Australia, we would escape every now and then to Mullewa, and that was a great escape. Cathy: Lovely, I've never actually been there, but I've heard wonderful things. Larry: Oh yeah. Now you know you've already achieved a great deal. You started out working with your programs of iPods, and just recently launched for the Android. Are there other things that you plan on doing. Cathy: We are really just very focused on building the best possible search experience for apps, and app search and web search are really quite different. This is a really difficult problem that hasn't been solved yet. We expect it's going to take us awhile to really get that to be amazing, so that's just what we are working hard on right now. Lucy: Although this question isn't on our official list I just now have to ask it for sure. Based on what you found out so far, with your search for apps, are there any missing areas, where we could all go write apps and get really, really rich. Cathy: You know, everybody asks me that. Well actually we produce an app search analytics support each month. That goes through what people are searching for and that sort of thing. I believe that we are planning on focusing on unfilled areas of app interest in one of those reports in the future. I don't have an answer for you right now, but stay tuned. Larry: I will Lucy: I will, we can write apps, to fund NCWIT. Larry: There you go, I like it. Lucy: Wow, Cathy, Thanks so much for joining us we really enjoyed talking to you. I want to remind listeners that they can find this at w3w3.com, and also ncwith.org. Larry: We'll put up chomp.com on the website also. Lucy: Well, Thank you Cathy. Larry: Thank You. Cathy: Thank you very much. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Cathy EdwardsInterview Summary: Cathy Edwards is the CTO and co-founder at Chomp, a search engine for mobile apps. She created Chomp's proprietary algorithm that understands the function of each app, allowing you to search for apps based on what they do rather than just what they're called. Release Date: April 11, 2011Interview Subject: Cathy EdwardsInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 14:39

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Alicia Morga Founder of GottaFeeling, Consorte Media Date: February 21, 2011 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes: Interview with Alicia Morga [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders and I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT. We've got just another great interview coming up. I can hardly wait to talk to the person we are talking to today. With me is Larry Nelson, w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi and I am so happy to be here. This is going to be an extremely interesting interview. The listeners out there, make sure that you get yourself ready to take a few notes here, too. Lucy: Absolutely. Lee Kennedy who is founder of Bolder Search and she is also a serial entrepreneur and probably most importantly, she is on the board of directors at NCWIT. Welcome, Lee. Lee Kennedy: Thanks and I love being here and part of NCWIT. Larry: All right. Lucy: Today, we are interviewing Alicia Morga who is currently the creator of gottaFeeling. This is an iPhone application that we must all go get. It basically tracks and shares your feelings. I went and look at the interface and it's just so cool. To think that all the places where I'm happy could be tracked over time and that I could learn something from that. It's just a wonderful application. But, before that, she was the founder and CEO of Consorte Media and it's a digital media in marketing company that is focused on the Hispanic market. Ultimately sold to Audience Science in April 2010. I was intrigued by Alicia's bio and I went to her site to learn more and she has the most wonderful video bio, I think I've ever seen. I really want to encourage all our listeners who want to be inspired to be entrepreneurs and to really get out there to go and listen to Alicia's video bio on her site. I know today we are going to hear some great advice. Here is my personal favorite and my husband was listening as well. Alicia, I'm ratting on you now but you said like "I do things to scare myself on a regular basis." [laughter] Lucy: It was just great. Welcome, Alicia. We are really glad to have you here. Why don't you tell listeners what have been going on with you lately before we go on to our interview questions. Alicia Morga: Well, thank you for having me first off. I have continued to do things that scare me. One of those is actually building a mobile application. I've never done that before. I actually didn't own an iPhone, or an iTouch and decided this is something I don't know anything about. Why don't I just jumped in and see what I can create. That is when I created the gottaFeeling application. As you said before, that's an App that helps people identify, express and manage their emotions. As you all some intend, you can track where and when you've been having those emotions. You got a better sense of what in your life is actually making you happy or not. Lucy: See, isn't that good? Larry: Yes, I'm happy. Lucy: If I plot my iPhone when I'm around you and I press annoying, annoying, annoying... Larry: Be careful, be careful, be careful, be gentle. Lee: That's how I kind of look at it. Not when I was happy but when I was sad. [laughter] Alicia: Just an beneficial. Serve you when you are unhappy, as well. Lucy: And so, Alicia, why don't you tell the listeners how you first got interested in technology. Alicia: Absolutely. It was a security's route. That was for sure. I did not grow up thinking I was going to be an entrepreneur nor anybody who knew me think I was going to be an entrepreneur. But when I look at it back now, I realized I have all the entrepreneurial traits that are usually necessary to become an entrepreneur. I was very curious and adventurous. The first time I got into technology was when I was in high school. There was a basic programming language course that I ended up taking and I built a baseball game in basic and thought wow, this was fun. You can build anything that you want in this thing called the computer. I had absolutely no concept beyond that I would use technology. But I ended up going to Stanford University and that of course, just plunked me down in the middle of Silicon Valley. I started to hear drips and drabs about technology and entrepreneurship but really didn't connect the dots until I became a corporate lawyer after law school off at Stanford University. At that point starting to work with technology companies and venture capital firms. That's when I just started to really dwell. There's this business here and this is how people here make money. I want to understand it more. I started just digging in. At that point, the Internet was more evolved and I was able to go online and see how other people were using technology and that was very inspiring. Lucy: Well, as you look at then on the technical landscape today. Are there any technologies that you find particularly exciting? Alicia: What was so eye opening to me about learning technology. We are not really as far long we think we are or we would hope to be. And so, the uses of technology right now are pretty basic. And so, I'm actually excited about pushing the technologies a little bit further. One of the things that I really like about this mobile application and the next company that I'm going to be starting is how do we push the technology to do more than just read newspaper accounts or play a game. But actually use it more in our everyday life. Some in extremely motivated by the quantified self movement, I don't know. You guys are familiar with that. But in essence, it is using the device, the technology device that are out there today like the mobile phone. In some cases, devices that are actually created for specific uses like Fit Fit or Nike's iPad tracker. To give you more feedback about who you are as a human being and to use the data that you produce by yourself to make better decisions and improve your life. I'm really excited about technology that is going to actually make a fundamental difference as opposed to just highlighting the symptoms. Lucy: Gosh, I love these interviews. It's like I always learn so much from. Thanks. That's really cool. I mean I have to check that out. Alicia, you have started to talk about the characteristics of why you are an entrepreneur, you're curious and adventurous. Can you expand on that? We'd love to hear about why you are an entrepreneur and what it is that makes you tick about being an entrepreneur. Alicia: I basically started my own company because at that time, I was working at The Carlyle Group, a private equity firm, and really... Was also at my beginning 30s, and really started to ask myself where did I really want to be in 10 years and whose path did I want to be own. I thought the task at the Carlyle Group, a very fine firm, but it was going to be a long tap and arduous one to become partner. I wasn't necessarily sure that's exactly what I wanted for myself. I started looking around. I had this friend who start his own business and that was very influential because up until that point, I've never known anybody to be an entrepreneur. Because I am a curious person, I started asking him about what his day was like and I went over to his house. We lived in the same neighborhood and he was making hotdogs. I remember in his pajamas one day. [laughs] I start wow, is this what being an entrepreneur is like? ? [laughter] Lucy: Yeah. [laughter] Alicia: That was eye opening. But what I got out of that interaction was you get control over your destiny in a way that you don't necessarily as an employee when you are the employer, when you are somebody who has the vision and is getting the team together and pushing forward towards that vision. There is just a whole level of control that you get and also, responsibility. But that was very, very intriguing to me. I get a lot the question: Are entrepreneurs born or made? I think that is a tricky question because I think it's a little bit of both. I think there are folks who have the personality traits that will help them to be successful entrepreneurs. But they may or may not have ever been put in a context that makes it available to them, that gives them the exposure and access they might need to become an entrepreneur. And without that context, you can have some very limiting belief about what's possible for you which was definitely the case for me earlier on. It took me... I've gone into my 30s before I felt safe enough before I felt more confident in who I was as a person to actually explore entrepreneurship. Larry: Wow. Lucy: And now, you make hotdogs in your pajamas? [laughter] Alicia: Sadly, that's true. [laughter] Lee: All right.  Larry: OK. That's another session, OK? [laughter] Larry: Alicia, along the way, you've worked with so many different people. Who are some of the people that you would say supported you in your career path whether they are mentors or role models? Alicia: When I was younger, I had a feeling this question would come up. And so, I was thinking about this. I was thinking who were my mentors when I was younger and I actually didn't have mentors. By virtue of where I grew up, I was in a socio-economic community. Most of the people I knew didn't have college degrees, didn't have any college degrees, were not in any sort of professional industry. I then had to turn to popular media basically, to provide me with a sense of what else was out there and available. I had a mind that wanted to know what else was out there. I have to say, some of my mentors are actually PBS. [laughs] I found the PBS channel, and I used to watch "Nova" religiously. Especially when I was 12, for some reason, I went through a whole "Nova" period. [laughs] I was also fortunate that there was "The Cosby Show" at the time. That was the first time I had ever seen a doctor and a lawyer who were married. Growing up popular media actually had a very huge influence on me and were my mentors, until I got much older. Then in the process of being entrepreneur, becoming one, living as one, one of my greatest mentors is a woman named Carol Robbin. She's actually a professor here at the Stanford Business School. She was my CEO coach. There came a time in my entrepreneurship experience where I felt very overwhelmed and I needed help. I was referred to her, and she has just been fabulous. She used to be fabulous in my life, but somebody who I really look to for not only how to be an entrepreneur, but also how to be as a person. Lucy: Alicia, you've done a wonderful job describing to listeners the path you've taken as an entrepreneur. What's the toughest thing you've ever had to do? Alicia: Hmm. [laughs] There's been a lot of tough things I've had to do. There have been tough experiences in my life. The number one toughest experience, I think, in my life, was when I graduated from high school. I had been accepted by Stanford University, but I didn't have the financial resources to make it work. I actually had to spend two years working full time and going to school at the same time, saving money in order to transfer into Stanford at the beginning of my junior year. It was the first time I was confronted with the fact or the reality that you can do everything right and it still not work out. It was a hard lesson to learn, but it only solidified my persistence muscle, which is, if you really want something, you just keep going at it and eventually you'll get there. You can't take the early signs as signs that you shouldn't be doing it. Then later in my career as an entrepreneur, I think the hardest moment was in essentially my former company at Consorte Media always had to do with people. There came a time when we had to lay off a few folks, and that was extremely difficult. Especially in a small company, when you know people well, you know exactly what's going on in their personal life. It's the last thing you want to have to do. Very, very difficult. Lucy: That seems to be so many of the woman that we've interviewed in this series, is having to lay off someone, and having to reorganize. Alicia: Absolutely. People are the joys, but they're also the greatest challenge, as well. Lucy: Looking at a more positive note, if you were sitting here with us, and you were going to explain to somebody that was thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Alicia: That's a great question. I would first tell them to listen to their body. I know that sounds really strange, but I have found that entrepreneurs are the people who do. There's a great big mix of people who talk about doing, but entrepreneurs are the ones who actually get out of their chair, off their sofa, and start trying to make it happen. It may not happen in the way that they want it to, but they're the ones who take the first step. You have to start to notice, as you think about entrepreneurship or what you might want to do next in your life, what your body does. If you find yourself searching online in the subject area that you're interested in starting a business, that's a great sign. If you find yourself thinking about but you never actually get up to go start doing some research or asking people some questions, that's a sign that you're probably not going to end up doing it, or the time is not right for you to become an entrepreneur. Woman: So you've got to move. Larry: Got to move. Now, I think maybe there's a little bit of a hint about that, because I want to ask you, what are the personal characteristics that you have that has given you the advantage of being an an entrepreneur? Alicia: Absolutely. I'm a mover. As you probably also might have noted in the video, I'm a runner. [laughs] I like to run. I'm a very physical person, just first and foremost. But mentally I am what's called a quick start. There's actually a test out there that people may or may not know about that is particularly interesting. I have found it interesting in assessing who I am and what I'm good at. It's called the Kolbe Index. It tells you what your conative style is, which is how you actually go about doing things, as opposed to just thinking about things. I am somebody who just dives in, and then tries to figure it out as I go along. I tend to get in over my head and then swim my way out. I think that's actually a great trait for entrepreneurs, because it's never going to be perfect. The stars aren't going to all align and the doors are just going to open up, and there's going to be sounding angels saying, "It's ready, it's time for you to start your company!" It just never happens that way. I analogize it a lot to having a baby. There's really no good time. But those people who jump in and do it are really, at the end of the day, entrepreneurs. I think that's a really key trait. Lucy: Absolutely it is. Alicia, in terms of balance between your personal and your professional life, you mentioned you're a runner. That certainly helps bring balance. It certainly relieves some stress. What other things do you do that help put balance into your life? Alicia: I have to admit, during my time at Consorte Media, I was terrible at balance. I really was. When you're brand new and it's your first thing, you're just so engulfed by what you're trying to accomplish that you think about it all the time. It's really hard to set up boundaries. This time around, I'm much more aware of how necessary it is to take a break and go for a run, or see your family, or hang out with friends, or just do something completely different. Play the guitar for a while to give yourself a mental, physical, emotional break from what you're trying to do. That's basically what I do to maintain balance. I see my family. I see my friends. We talk about things that are completely unrelated to what I'm doing on the business side. That helps. Lucy: Definitely helps. Larry: You got it. Lucy: Well, Alicia, your life is really interesting, and I can't wait to go watch your video. Tell us what's down the road for you. What are you excited about? Alicia: I'm really excited about where this mobile application is taking me. I'm very excited the concept of self awareness. One of the key things that I had to learn in becoming an entrepreneur is understanding who I was, which sounds so wishy-washy or touchy-feely, but turned out to be an incredibly important thing, because you can't be a leader without understanding your weaknesses and your strengths. That means really taking the time to understand who you are. I find a lot of people really don't do that, particularly young people. You get pigeon-holed really quickly into a track. You go down that track and not enough people, I think, stop to ask themselves if they're happy. Is there something that actually is working for them? I don't think happiness is necessarily the end all, be all. It's actually quite a fleeting thing, and it sort of happens every once in a while, and that's great. But is your life or what you're doing in life really congruent with who you are so that you're getting the best out of it? To do all that, you have to go back to some basic skills that we all started to learn in kindergarten, in the first grade, when we learned how to identify our feelings and to express our feelings. But it's a skill, and it's not something that's actually practiced on a regular basis. It's not something you can learn once and then hope to have for the rest of your life. I think it's extremely important that people continue to focus in on, "Who am I, and how do I get myself to a place of peace?" To do that, I think there are ways technology can help. So while "Got a Feeling," the mobile application, is one part of what I'm trying to create. I'm working on a second part, a company that's in stealth mode, but it's called Regmeta which is actually a Portuguese word for "reflect." It will help individuals to see themselves through the information they share about themselves online, and also through their relationships with others. Lucy: That's really interesting. Larry: Sounds interesting. Wow. Alicia: Good. Lucy: Yeah, it definitely does. You know, "Got a Feeling," I was just sitting here thinking of that song, "I'm Hooked on a Feeling." [laughter] [singing] Larry: We got them going. [laughter] Lucy: Alicia, it sounds like you've just got some wonderful things that you're working on. We really do appreciate your taking time to talk to us. Alicia: Thank you. Lucy: Good luck with those products. We'll be watching you, and hopefully connect again in the future. Alicia: Sounds good. Lucy: I want to remind listeners where they can find this interview, at w3w3.com, and also at mcweb.org. Man: All right. Lucy: Thank you, Alicia! Alicia: Bye. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Alicia Morga Interview Summary: Stanford, Goldman Sachs, Hummer Winblad: Alicia Morga may look like your typical success story, but don't let that fool you. This driven woman has worked her way up the ladder from extremely humble beginnings. Now, as an entrepreneur, she's figured out the difference between how to survive and how to thrive. Release Date: February 21, 2011Interview Subject: Alicia MorgaInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 19:13

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes Lee Kennedy: Hi, this is Lee Kennedy. I'm the CEO of Bolder Search and a board member for the National Center for Women & Information Technology or NCWIT. This is part of a series of interviews that we are having with fabulous entrepreneurs. They're women who have started IT companies in a variety of sectors, all of whom have just fabulous stories to tell us about being entrepreneurs. With me today is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hey, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hey, I'm excited about this interview, certainly a person with a tremendous amount of experience. Wow, I can't wait to get into this and we know we have lot of firm executives and young people that are looking into becoming an entrepreneur and getting into the high tech arena who are listeners. So, I'm really looking forward to this interview. Lee: Super. So, today we are interviewing Sukhinder Singh Cassidy. She is a leading Internet and media executive with a touch over 18 years of leadership in working with early stage companies including Google, Amazon, Yodlee and Polyvore, which is a leading global fashion community site. So, why don't I go ahead and interview Sukhinder. We are so happy to have you today. Sukhinder Singh Cassidy: Thank you. Lee: Larry, I think we'll just jump into things. Larry: All right. I'm going to ask you a question that Lucy Sanders always likes us to ask and that is how did you first get involved in the technology business and what technologies do you think are cool today? Sukhinder: I actually first got involved in the technology business probably 13 or 14 years ago in 1997, actually, late '96, early '97. Prior to that, I had been working in New York, in London in media and that investment banking. I stayed in Merrill Lynch for several years and then I went on to market BSkyB, which is the leading satellite broadcast at that time. So, actually, kind of a technology company but more of a media company. I moved to the Bay area on fundamentally I guess on thesis that I wanted to be close to entrepreneurs and one day be an entrepreneur myself. I did not know what I wanted to do but I did know there were smart motivated people in the Bay area. I had traveled out to San Francisco to visit friends and fell in love with the Bay area. So, I took a leap of faith. I moved from London, sold everything I had in London. Bought a car for $10, 000 in LA and drove up the Coast to San Francisco and found my first job. Larry: Wow. Lee: I have to say it is not too dissimilar to my background. I moved out to the Bay area and it's kind of hard not to get into technology. Sukhinder: Absolutely. So, I did not want to be an entrepreneur. But it was that classic, I didn't have an idea. So I thought the next best thing was to put myself close to smart people, working on interesting problems and being entrepreneurs themselves, somehow that path would be a positive one. Larry: Of all the different things that you've been involved with the technology, which ones do you think are cool today? Sukhinder: There are some I had been lucky enough to be involved with and some less so that I just admire from afar a bit. Probably, two of my favorites I'll say as consumer there's something you got to see these businesses built at Google. One, I mean the technology I just to love today, are anything that you would of think as geo or location based. So, my first job at Google was helping to launch Google maps and Google logo and the idea that your location is a pretty important indicator. Where you are relative to your friends in the case of Foursquare or where you are on a map and where you are trying to get to go and having driving directions on your iPhone, forgoing the traditional, heavy-duty MAPS systems that are sitting in cars or something; lightweight but just as revolutionary. So, I love anything geo where as a user my location has something to do and some relevance to play in what I want to do next. And I think we see geo now as a layer on top of many technologies. The second thing I love is of course cloud-based applications. For me, it is actually very simple. As a consumer, the idea that I no longer have to be stuck to one PC to access my contact list, to access my emails, to access documents. I mean today we have apps of every kind based on the cloud; business apps, enterprise apps, consumer apps. But I think of Google really as introducing that concept in a pretty revolutionary way with Gmail and now of course its very standard. I just love cloud based apps because they truly make me mobile. And the last thing, it's hard not to love the iPhone, now the iPad but if you think about the iPhone as just an incredible tool but more importantly an incredible statement instead of just ability to use that hardware and software. To have a pretty revolutionary consumer design and that the integration of hardware and software still matters. And owning both, which was Apple's proprietary focus and goal. And long after people forgot about hardware, Apple believed that innovation was still possible in hardware, right? And the group did this to all by fundamentally changing the way we communicate with the iPhone. Lee: I'll have to have an offline discussion about the iPhone versus Android GP and you being a former Google employee. Sukhinder: Yes and it means like I said like the Android OS and then the non proprietary system and that is amazing being able to boot application development to many different phone and the fundamental thesis for Google creating an OS and then integrating with third party hardware and redesigning hardware. Instead of working a new age phone that showcase the power software. So, I guess my point is that long after people have forgotten about hard ware and all the software, lo and behold Apple app and hardware. Lee: I know that's the jobs. Sukhinder: Application development layer and in Droid continues on that screen stream.  Larry: Well, I just want to let you know that I have something in common with you. We moved from Copenhagen to the Bay area a number of years ago. Lee: Are you trying to warn me up Larry? OK. All that said about your background and the technologies you think are cool. Tell us why entrepreneurship turns you on? What are you an entrepreneur? Sukhinder: I think there are probably three things I just love about it. Number one is obviously the building that create an author and that is every level. Yes, you are creating a business model on a product but also to go and author your team. Who you get to work with, how you want to work, the culture you want to create. I think that there are people who love to build stuff. I happen to love to build stuff. I think authorship and creation except for some people is a drag and I think I really enjoy the process. I think the second think is I'm sort of a gratification junkie. I like to put in work and get back feedback quickly and then iterate like progress to me is best measure in those increments and that is also how I motivate myself and I think entrepreneurship is really suited to this iteration cycles, right? You get to put out something out there, see the results, see what works, see what doesn't, try it, try something else. And I think that fast cycle times really feels and considers me and probably my own kind of cycle which I work and I think that is fundamentally one of the reasons that it gives me so much excitement. So, I think authorship and the ability to create the kind of quick iteration and feedback loop in entrepreneurship those are things that resonates really, really highly with me. Larry: Sukhinder, with all the things that you done in the different organizations, it's really phenomenal. But let me ask you this, along the way, who supported you in your career path or your role model or your mentor? Sukhinder: Well, first of all, it is interesting. I don't believe in a single role model. I feel like for different parts of my career, depending on the things I have to learn, there were different mentors to me and role models along the way. First and foremost, my father. He was a doctor and loves to be a doctor. He loves running the practice like the business of running the practice. My first job was doing tax returns when I was 15 years old. My father taught me balance sheets and income statements because he was fascinated and he was thinking of different ways to optimize his business and he share the same with me. My second job was in his office as secretary but he was clearly passionate about the job he was doing. The content of his job which was medicine and also entrepreneurship and running the business. He was from very young age clears want to work for yourself. I would say more recently, I think my role models and mentors have really been at some point of time very relevant to what I have to learn to ramp sure ramp, Google and obviously very notable angel come valley. Before that was the CEO of Jungly, my first copy in the Valley that was acquired by Amazon and I had a pleasure to work with the man. And he was an investor in Yodeli, the company that I joined as a co-founder and then ultimately was also involved with Google where I joined next. From Rome, I learned great skills and I also just learned how important it is to match a great business team with a great product team and Rome as an angel has been very successful in helping to find and integrate entrepreneurs. Rome was certainly one. I think Henry Ryan, one of the founders of Jungali, first company that I joined in the Valley. He is a serial entrepreneur. He is in a company five and he has calm, stability, successful exit, diversity and experience and it turned operating CEO so when I have current issues, I call him and I think about my route in Google. Certainly my boss Kurt Estani who was the chief revenue officer at Google and he was probably employed 13 or something like that build Google's revenue from zero to 23 billion. For me, certainly, I just add what I learn, the skill associated with being a great relationship daughter and a great manager not to say I was but I think I learned from him the important of their skills and he is just the ultimate consistent builder and relationship manager. And also, someday he was able to hire greatly skilled people and let them run. Stan Standberg is now running Facebook, Armstrong is running AOL. These people are on the team and I give credit for figuring out how to hire us, mentor us, harness us and still let us run and build. So, I think the different people are the different points of my career to some of them. Lee: Sukhinder, you have been super fortunate at least from my viewpoint to have such phenomenal mentors. That is really exciting. Sukhinder: Yeah, I certainly felt privilege to get to work with these people. So, I guess my point is it is not just one mentor but there are people you learn different skills and I think at different point of my career, I feel like I had the opportunity to work with these people and certainly some of them go and instilled to them. I go for different type of advice when I think there is something they have to offer me. Lee: So, on to something a little more tough, what is the toughest thing you've had to do in your career? Sukhinder: I think of very tough business challenges, but then I think of the challenges that take their toll on you emotionally. This is often a question I ask others when I'm interviewing them, when I'm interviewing executives to join my team. I often just say, "What's the biggest career mistake you've made?" Which is another way of asking the same question. But I think the things that take the hardest emotional toll on you are not the decision or strategy vantage point perspective you called wrong, because you can two or three or four different paths in a different strategy, and maybe you chose the wrong path, but smart people can have different answers. But the ones that're really tough, honestly, are the ones that surround people, right? Awful, making a decision that someone's not a fit. I think those are the most personally taxing and tough things to do in my career. You know, at Yodelly, certainly, we went through to Boston , we had to lay off people, and it was my first time laying off people. You dissolve a relationship with people, you feel a huge amount of responsibility for people's career and career choices when you bring them into a company, I do. Lee: Yeah. Larry: Oh, sure. Sukhinder: Some of that was recession-driven, but there're other times where it's actually not a function of the recession. Often in cases outside of those extraordinary circumstances, like the Boston 2002, the Internet dark days. It's really actually just about culture set, because the people you hire are, by and large, exceptionally competent. It's whether or not they're a fit with the organization, and it's a place that allows them to thrive. When you see that for whatever reason it's not working, learning to make that decision or call quickly or expediently, expeditiously, is important. Because the cost of not doing it well or quickly is high for everyone. It's high for the organization, it's hard for the person who feels like they're, for whatever reason, not able to get it done. They're feeling frustrated. But it's very hard to bring that conversation to a head, and I've been on both sides of it, right? I've certainly had to make the call when someone wasn't a fit, so I just think that whenever you have people decisions, your own decision to move on from something, or managing someone for whom you need to negotiate whether or not they're going to move on. Those are always the most difficult decisions, because they involve people's lives and careers and you want to do them with the right amount of diligence and care and conscientiousness, but also in a way that is expeditious for everyone. So everybody can move on. Larry: All right, well let's move on, and we're going to lighten this one up a little bit. Let's pretend, right now, you are sitting at your desk or around a table. You had a young person who thinking about becoming an entrepreneur. What advice would you give them? Sukhinder: Well let's see, I think there're tons of bits of advice you can give to young entrepreneurs, and I'm sure you have, in all of these interviews you've done, many greater nuggets than what I have to offer, but...I think if there were two things, and one may be obvious but I don't know if people truly accept it. So clearly one of the key things is to iterate in very quick cycles. I think a lot of times I spent, like, perfecting the business idea in PowerPoint. But the reality is, it's not substitute for customer feedback. As quickly as possible, and as cheaply as possible. So I think before you go out and raise money or create too many PowerPoints, you want to find a quick way to test and iterate on your idea at low cost. And keep trying until you find the nugget that seems to resonate with the consumer. Particularly true in Internet business, right? We're consumer Internet businesses. We can't quite predict how the online consumer is going to react, and what they're going to love, and what they're not going to love. It's not always just rational, right? Some of the web stuff companies weren't built of rational need. They just were launched and tested and iterated on, and they found some resonance with the consumer. So that's one, and it's probably fairly obvious. I think the second one, I think a lot of people say they're self-aware. But honestly, I think as an entrepreneur, you have to become incredible self-aware, and I think that's for a couple reasons. First of all, I think self-awareness revolves around understanding what's your own trademark strength, and what do you excel at, right? And part of building a great company, obviously, is figuring out how you fit and how to do what you're great at. If you can build an entire company around it, around your trademark strength, that's amazing. But quite often, building a great company is bringing into the building and, bringing in a diverse set of experiences. Often that means self-awareness about what you're also not great at, right? Where can you attract and surround yourself with people who have other strong skills that are complementary to your own. If you really want to win, and you really want to grow a company of some scale, I think it starts with self-awareness. Playing to your own trademark strength, and then being very quick. I would say in some ways open to building a company of great, strong, diverse talent that helps complement the skills you have. But it takes both parts, right? Playing to your own strengths, but also being, being pretty clear on your weaknesses, and certainly if you want to scale a company beyond a certain size. It is about recruiting incredible talent to your vision, but with complementary skills. Lee: I have to totally agree with you on that. Larry: Mm-hmm. Lee: I'm going to follow along and ask you, what do you excel at that's made you a fabulous entrepreneur? Sukhinder: Well I think first of all, I think most people who know me would consider me high energy and intensity. I think an entrepreneur for many years, it's about being your own best evangelist, right? Not for you, but for your company's vision. I think that requires a lot of energy. Then you have to be able to do that, and have a surplus of energy, if possible, to give to your team, right? To motivate and bolster them, and let them know it's possible. Again, most entrepreneurs, there's not always a rational need for what they're doing. They're often thinking to where the market is going, right. That requires evangelism. It requires a certain energy and intensity to come to work every day, and when the market's not yet there, or investors don't believe, that you believe, and you're able to convey that belief and conviction to others, with energy. So I think that's one piece. You know, I know how to sell. I spent most of my early career in sales. My college jobs, were summer jobs, were in sales. Then when I arrived in the valley, my functional specialty, if you could call it that, was business development. Business development in every company I've ever worked at correlated with sales. It was revenue-producing. As an entrepreneur, you kind of have to sell. And so I think having core skills that are functional set in sales and being very comfortable with that, has been helpful. And then roughly, I mean, I would circle back to the self-awareness piece. I'm certainly very, very flawed. But I think over the years, being in a variety of leadership situations and having to scale through both successful and failed experiences, I have the benefit of a lot of feedback. And I know what I'm good at and I know what I'm not good at. While I work at what I'm not good at, I try to play to my strengths and find a place where they can be accelerants, to a business or a team, and where they're not, I don't, I guess, pretend to believe that I'm going to become perfect. But I think I'm pretty clear on the areas I need to surround myself with to actually have a fully embodied and diverse team that's capable of getting it done. And so I think years and years, instead of repeated feedback on the same issues has yielded a lot of self-awareness. I think at this stage that what am I good at, and where is it that I need to bring in a strong and talented team to really create, and as I said, some things a team together can win. Larry: Well I like that. Let me throw a little curve ball at you. Now, with all that stuff that you're doing, you've mentioned everything from high-energy and intensity, how to sell, being self-aware, and everything else, how do you bring balance into your personal and professional lives? Sukhinder: Well, first of all, I guess let me start by saying I'm not a believer in balance in the typical way that people talk about it, which is just this ... I have this thesis that people imagine this perfect day, right, where you wake up at six, and you work out for an hour, and then you play with your kids. And then you have a great breakfast filled with protein and carbs, and you work perfectly from nine to six, and you come home and you feed your children and you have wonderful family time, and then you do two hours of email, and you get ... early, this is thesis of what balance looks like and I just don't believe it. I don't believe it, at least for me. I think balance has to be measured in cycles that are far longer than a day, often months and years. Because I think that to do anything well requires a certain amount of energy and focus. To be a great parent requires energy and focus and intensity. To be a great manager requires it, to be great manager requires it. To be a great entrepreneur. To be great at sports. And so, when you think about trying to do things well simultaneously, I'm a believer that kind of the best it gets is that there are going to be periods of your life which are all about work. There are going to be periods which may be all about family. And I measure balance in my life by cycles, there are cycles of time, often measured in months or years, where I know I'm going to have to give a lot of focus or priority to something. And then the best you can do in that situation, is really trying to manage very clearly expectations, which I think of as the multiple shareholders in your life, right. Your husband expects something from you. Your children expect something from you. Your team expects something from you. Inside constituencies. Boards you serve on expect something from you. And the most you can do is actually manage expectations very clearly, like hey, I'm going into a period that's going to require a lot of travel. What are we going to do about it. In the case of managing expectations, what I would say instead of negotiating with your family. There would be other times that you negotiate with work. And you say I'm about to have my third child. I'm going out on maternity leave, but I know we're trying to close a big deal. How are we going to get it done. And so, I guess I don't believe in balance, as by the standard definition. I believe instead, of cycles in your life. And managing expectations with an increasing number of constituencies as your life goes on. And hoping that when you look back on your life, as measured in months or years, maybe it was equally divided between all the things that are important to you, or at least divided between the one or two things that are important to you, in a way that you feel good about. But it's measured in a much longer cycle. And in between, you manage expectations, and you learn to live with a lot of guilt. Lee: Well, thank you for that honest answer. Suhkinder, it's clear you've achieved a lot. And we have thoroughly enjoyed hearing your answers to our questions, and last but not least, we're curious what's next for you. Sukhinder: It's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I think in the spirit of what we chatted about, which is, you want to play to your trademark strengths. For me, it's about working with great teams at high intensity and high RPMs, and feeling honestly that I could move to a place where I could make my maximum impact, and that's about finding a place where my skills are a great fit. And I think it could be pure entrepreneurship, and founding something, or it could be operating at significant scale and complexity. But where the trajectory for a company is high, and navigating it with a smart group of people is important. Both to them and to me. Lee: Well, we wish you great success in your next. Larry: Yes, and we're going to follow up on you too. Lee: So thank you so much for spending this time with us. Larry: You listeners out there, pass this interview along to others that you know would be interested, you can listen to it at w3.w3.com and ncwit.org 24/7, look at our blog, it will be in our podcast directory too. Lee: Thank you so much. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Sukhinder Singh CassidyInterview Summary: Sukhinder Singh Cassidy has worked at companies large and small in their early stages, including Google, News Corp., Amazon, Polyvore, and Yodlee. But before she got into the tech industry, she did the taxes for her father, a doctor. In this interview she gives some great advice about the energy and intensity she thinks are vital to being a successful entrepreneur, as well as the importance of knowing how to sell, and how to be self-aware. Release Date: January 30, 2011Interview Subject: Sukhinder Singh CassidyInterviewer(s): Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 22:10

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Leila Boujnane CEO, Idee, Inc. Date: January 4, 2011 Interview with Leila Boujnane Lee Kennedy: Hi, this is Lee Kennedy. I'm the CEO of Boulder Search, and a board member for NCWIT, the National Center for Women & Information Technology. This is part of a series of interviews that we're having with just fabulous entrepreneurs. These are women who have started IT companies in a variety of sectors, and all who have just fabulous stories to tell us about being entrepreneurs. With me today is Larry Nelson, from W3W3.com. Hey Larry. How are you? Larry Nelson: Oh, I'm magnificent. I'm excited about this interview. This whole series has been just terrific. We get all kinds of people from the entrepreneurs to the executives, and many young people who are looking into getting into this kind of business. Lee: Great. Today we're interviewing Leila Boujnane, the CEO of Idee. That's French for "idea." Hi Leila. Welcome. Leila Boujnane: Hello. Hello. Lee: Now did I get your last name right? Leila: That is correct. Leila Boujnane. It's too many Ns, but yes, that is correct. Lee: Great. Idee's goal is to make images searchable. Idee develops advanced image identification and visual search software. The technology looks at patterns and pixels of images and videos to make each image or frame searchable by color, similarity, or exact duplicates. Did I get that pretty close? Leila: That is very close. That's pretty much exactly what we do. Everything that we do is based on actually looking at what we call an asset. That could be an image or a video. But we'll look at it differently. Instead of looking at a text file or looking at a keyword, or looking at what describes that image, we actually look at what makes that image, so all the pixels that are actually making that image or the frame in a video that you're looking at. Lee: That is so interesting. Larry: That really is. Lee: Tell us a little bit about what happening at Idee lately. Leila: Well, we launched, I would say, the world's most awesome reverse image search engine. I think it is still the largest reverse image search engine out there. It's called Pineye. So basically what you do is you give it an image and it indexes that image on the fly. By indexing, we mean it actually creates a unique fingerprint for that image based on what it sees in the image. Then it compares it to our image index, and it tells you in real time where that image is actually appearing on the web. Lee: Wow. Leila: It does that very seamlessly. If you've played with it, it's as simple as, drop your file here and get results there. It's doing that using image recognition, with a pretty, pretty large index. Our current image index, and these are the images that we've crawled from the web and indexed, is actually close to two billion. We haven't gotten to two billion, but it's very, very close. Lee: Wow. Larry: That's with a B? Leila: Yes... Larry: Wow. Leila: ...With a B, with a big B. Upper-case B. It's been a really, really exciting undertaking for us, because it really brought what we call image recognition-based search to everyone. Anyone that is used to actually going online and searching for an image has been doing that using keywords. When you have this in your head and you say, "Where did this appear?" or, "Who created this?" or, "Where can I get more of this image than I already have?" There wasn't really a mechanism to do that. This was a very good way to actually put image recognition out there and have it solve problems daily for people. Larry: Wow, that's fantastic. One of the questions, of course, that Lucy Sanders likes us to always ask is, how did you first get into technology? If I could couple that with another question, is, what technologies, in addition to the wonderful things you're doing, that you think are real cool? Leila: Well, how I got into technology was completely by accident. I tell people all the time, you can't underestimate the power of luck or accidents, or just what makes you do something when it's not really what you planned. If you had told me more than a decade ago that I would be in technology, I would have just looked at you and laughed and said you didn't know what you were talking about. Lee: Wow. Leila: Because I actually was in med school studying medicine, in Bordeaux, in France, to become a doctor. Lee: Oh my gosh. Leila: I was curious about technology and computers and so on, but I was more of a science-mathematics mind rather than an actual engineering or software type of person. Much to the dismay of my family and parents, I decided that medicine was not for me. I just completely out of the blue stopped my studies and decided to take a year off to figure out what was it that I was really going to be doing, after having grown up... I thought my entire life that when I grew up, I want to be a doctor. I actually never questioned that. Nothing besides medicine ever entered my mind. But when I was studying it, I just realized that it just was not for me. When I took a year off, I actually moved from France to Canada, and completely by accident, met a group of individuals who were starting a software company here in Toronto. They were looking at an addition to their team. I turned out to be a good fit. I just decided to try it and see what happens. If I like it, then that's great. I just needed a bit of a change. After that, I've actually never looked back. I'm amazed that I didn't do that early on in my life. But it was really, really completely accidental. Lee: That's a very cool story. Larry: Yeah. Leila: And scary at the same time, because if you think about how one decides what to do and what career to enter, like this was a fluke. If I hadn't met the individuals that started Algorithmics in Toronto, and if I wasn't talking about being interested in exploring other things, this really would not have happened. Perhaps it would have happened later, but it wouldn't have happened the way most people enter technology or move into working in software. Larry: Yes. What technologies outside of what you're doing do you think are cool today? Leila: You know, it's a bit funny to be asked that question, because in the field that I'm in, I'm in search. I always think all technologies are awesome. Everything that I see out there, you look at it and you think, "Oh my God, this is exciting, it's going to change A, B, or C." But I'm very focused on search. When I look at what I find really, really exciting that's outside of search, I have a tendency to look at any type of technology that allows us humans to analyze really, really, really large sets of information. Like, anything that allows us to visualize that. If you were able to get access to, I don't know, all the war, conflicts in the entire world for the past hundred years. If you had that kind of information, what tool could you use to visualize it? Tools for visualizing information, and also any type of tool that actually allows us to stay in touch and communicate better. When I think about that, and I think, tools like Twitter. But it's not the only thing. But I just think that communications and tools that facilitate communications are really, really transformational tools, for all kinds of purposes, whether it's a mobile device that allows you to sell goods or to stay in touch with family or to book an appointment or confirm something, those are pretty transformational technologies. At least, when I look outside of search, that's what I see. Lee: I totally agree. It seems like with the ubiquitous use of cell phones that all have cameras, it's amazing what's going to images. People are taking pictures of coupons and the little scan codes... Leila: Of everything. Lee: Yeah. Leila: Absolutely everything. Lee: It's really exciting. Leila: Yeah, we find that exciting and strange at the same time. But the reality is that our brains are actually wired to work with images. An image has far more impact on us than a word. If you look at an image and you see something in that, the impact of it is far greater than a word that's displayed to you. If I put a word in front of you and it says "famine" and I show you a photograph, they have very, very distinct and separate impacts. Larry: It is worth a thousand words. Lee: Yeah. Leila: Just about, I think, yes. I think there is some truth to that, that's true. Lee: Leila, I'm curious. You went from your plan to be a doctor, scientist mode, to a technologist. But why are you an entrepreneur? What is it about entrepreneurship that really excites you, makes you tick? Leila: Well, that's something that I've always had. Like from the day I was born, I think, much to the dismay of my mom, I had this thing where I really wanted to do things on my own. I wanted to set my pace. I wanted to do things in particular ways. I didn't want to have anyone else dictate how this should be done, even if the way they are asking for something to be done is actually the correct way to do it. But I have this thing about wanting to figure things out on my own and then set a pace and then run to that pace. That was always there. Even when I was in med school, it was there, which was also a bit of a challenge in that kind of environment. For me, that was very, very critical. So when I started working in a software company and I realized that that's a fantastic environment, or technology is actually a fantastic industry for that, it just confirmed exactly what I always had, which was the desire to do something by myself and build the road and travel on that road. That's always been there. I didn't find it surprising when it materialized into building a firm, but it just took longer to get there. Larry: After you get into the technology part, Leila, who are some of the people that maybe influenced you, supported you in your career path? Sometimes the word "mentors" is used. Leila: Well, for me, it's a bit different, because as I said, I accidentally fell into technology. But once I was there, I figured that this is really something that I'm very, very interested in, so I wasn't really looking so much for encouragement or someone to facilitate that entry. It was pretty much like, roll up your sleeves and figure out what you need to get done, and figure out how to do it. Learn and learn as much as possible. Stay curious about what's happening around you and ask questions. But I couldn't really have done anything that I'm doing today if it wasn't for one single thing, and that to me has been very critical my entire life. That was really, really my mom's desire to make sure, and I'm not sure it's a desire, but the way she brought us up. It was this philosophy of, it didn't matter what you wanted to do. You just go ahead and do it. You might succeed, you might fail. But you shouldn't be questioning, "Can I do this? Will I be good at doing it?" It was like, today I call it overconfidence-building, because it went beyond just making sure that your children have the confidence to undertake or try anything. It was more about, don't let anything stop you from doing something. Actually, don't even ask what that could be. Just go and do it. And that was critical. That was very important. If I were to say, what can be encouraged or what people should have more of in their lives, it would be that. It would be really someone who completely encourages them to try pretty much anything that they want to try, and figure out the other pieces afterwards. There are, of course, a lot of people that you look at and then you think, "My goodness, these people are incredible." You really admire them. Like for me for example, Cheryl Sandburg, the CEO of Facebook. She would be a hero. She would be in my book somebody that I really admire. I'm sure everyone is familiar with, Takushi, who started as a biomedical engineer, but became, at least for me, because I was in the medical field, somebody who actually transformed the batteries used in defibrillators. In the time, and even today, to me, that was just fantastic. That was just incredible. Not necessarily individuals that I related to my field, but just people whose work I admire and who have accomplished so much. Lee Kennedy: Wow. The takeaways I get is your mother basically gave you the confidence and courage that you could do anything. Then you're inspired by some of these other women that have just done really, really exciting things with their career. That's great. Leila: My goodness, yes. You look at what they have accomplished and you just think, "wow. How can they have done all of that in such a limited time? That's so brilliant!" Lee: Every time I do one of these interviews with Larry and Lucy, I get so excited and motivated. I leave that day just feeling like I could conquer the world. Thank you. Well, speaking of all that exciting stuff, I guess on the flip side of the coin, what's been the toughest thing you've had to do in your career so far? Leila: Well, that would have been early in my career. When I started Idee, we actually didn't start as a pure software company. We did a lot of consulting work. We took on a lot of clients that had nothing to do, necessarily, with the world of image search and search technologies overall. That's simply because the company was not VC- backed. It was completely organic. Profits and revenues actually built the company, not outside financing. But at the time, we were taking on a tremendous number of consulting projects, and a tremendous number of new outside clients, a little bit away from our field. There were, generally, I think, great revenues, but it was going to, how do you say that, just keep us from releasing search products because we would be busy solving problems for customers, which was great at generating revenues, but not really working on search problems. I have to say that one of the toughest decisions was to sit down and simply say that we can no longer do that. We are not going to do that. We are going to bite the bullet and restructure the firm to move from a service company to an actual product company. When we did that, it was my decision as well to lay off a number of people that just didn't fit the vision of where the company needed to go. I have to say, reflecting back, that was one of the hardest decisions I had to make. Larry: I'll say. Now if you were sitting down right now, across the table, across the desk, with a young person who is thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Leila: Well, I would say, don't do what I have done, which is sometimes, try to figure things as you are trying to solve a problem. Like, something I have lacked in the beginning of my career was looking at how other people have done things and learning from that. That's something that I've become much better at doing with our board, so figuring out, what is it that I'm good at, and what is it that I'm lacking? Is what I'm lacking something that I can learn, or is it something that I can get by talking to a number of people that have done that, and have done it very, very, very well. It's doing a little bit of an assessment early on, as you decide to become an entrepreneur and to build the company, just figure out what are the few things that you need to do better or learn, and figure out where to get that, and not wait until you are actually battling something to know or to figure out and reach out and try to get that expertise. That would be one thing. The second thing I would say, and I see that happening a lot, don't wait until tomorrow to start something. Lee: That's great advice. It's always easy to think, "Oh, I'll get to that." Leila: Yeah, exactly. Or you know what, this is a really great idea. Let me think about it a little bit longer. Then before you know it, a whole year has gone. Just do it. Lee: Well, along that same vein, you had spoken earlier about how you've always felt this entrepreneurial spirit. What would you say are the personal characteristics you have that have given you an advantage as an entrepreneur? Leila: I think about it as a great characteristic to have. Other people might think about it as something that's pretty awful. It's just one of these things. It's just like, giving up, to be honest, is just absolutely not part of my DNA. It's not part of my vocabulary. It's just like, it's not there. Lee: That's probably the most important thing, because being an entrepreneur, you face so many roadblocks. Yeah, that's awesome. Leila: But sometimes you have to, and I still haven't learned that. I'm sure I need another 10 years. Sometimes you have to stand down and then just give up because something is not going to work. But I have to say, the one saving grace is just exactly that, like, no desire to give up. It's not part of my makeup or who I am. It doesn't even exist. Larry: Yeah, I'm going to have to look up the word "give up" in the dictionary. I don't know what it means either. Leila: There you go, exactly. That's what I should be saying. Exactly. Larry: All right, Leila, I have to ask this. With all the things that you're doing and working on and starting up, how do you do bring balance in your personal and professional lives? Leila: Oh my goodness, Larry. You guys had to ask that question. I don't. I have to be honest. I don't. I don't even try. I know things will fall apart when they do. Then I'll deal with that then. I don't even try. Lee: Well, good for you. You sound like you know yourself. Leila: Exactly. I just like my life, and I know this. I'm a workaholic. My life is very chaotic. It's very fast. It's at times a bit disorganized. At times it's difficult for other people to deal, because I have a lot of balls in the air, and that doesn't change. But I would be lying if I actually said that I look at trying to introduce balance in my life or figure out how to lead a balanced life, because it's just not my personality. I look at things that I'm interested in, and I'm interested in doing them, and I just do them. If it ends up being too much, then I adjust as I'm doing things. But yeah, it's probably something I will have to learn. Lee: Well, good for you. So far it sounds like it's worked. Larry: You bet. If we have a class on that, we'll let you know. Leila: Awesome, yes. I'll attend. Lee: Well, last question we have for you. You've achieved so much in your career. What do you see as next? What's down the road for you? Leila: Well, I'm not very good at looking at the future and predicting, thank God, actually, what may or may not happen. But I know one thing. I will speak again from a business point of view and from what I'm doing currently that is work-related, because that's a very, very big focus. We're just in the very, very early days of search. Everyone has spent the last decade typing keywords into a field to basically get search results. That is actually being enhanced by image searching, by mobile searching, by augmented reality. We are just getting better and better tools to find the needle in the haystack. For me, at least when I think about it, from a research perspective and a software development perspective, these are incredibly early days. My work's not done. I could be working on this for the next couple of decades. This is not really something that I would consider as, "Hey, achieved check mark, and let's move on to something else." It is really the early days of that. Short answer, I'm looking forward to more of the same. Larry: We're going to follow you, too. Leila: That would be great. Lee: That's great. Larry: You betcha. Leila, I want to thank you for joining us today. You listeners out there, pass this interview along to others that you know would be interested. They can listen to it at w3w3.com, and ncwit.org 24-7. Download it as a podcast and we'll have it on the blog also. Leila: I will, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Larry: Thank you. Lee: Thank you, Leila. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Leila BoujnaneInterview Summary: A decade ago Leila Boujnane was in medical school in France, studying to become a doctor. If you'd told her then that she would be involved with technology, she would have laughed and would have said you didn't know what you were talking about. Release Date: January 4, 2011Interview Subject: Leila BoujnaneInterviewer(s): Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 21:50

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Katie Hall Chief Technology Officer, WiTricity Date: July 16, 2010 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women & Information Technology or NCWIT, and this is the next in a series of interviews with women who have started IT companies, just wonderful entrepreneurs who have a lot to tell us about their success in entrepreneurship, a lot of great advice. With me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson: Hello. I'm so happy to be here. This is a great organization, NCWIT, and the interviews that you've been doing with all these wonderful women, sharp women, it's fantastic. Lucy: Well we're getting a lot of uptick on these interviews, a lot of good remarks from people, so thanks for that, and thanks for w3w3's partnership with us. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Awesome. Also, Lee Kennedy is here, a serial entrepreneur and founder of Boulder Search who's also on the NCWIT Board of Directors. Hi Lee. Lee Kennedy: Hi, it's great to be here, I'm looking forward to this interview. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: I'm very excited about this interview. First of all, the person we're interviewing worked at Bell Labs. Yay! Lee: Yay! Larry: Yay! Lucy: We always like those Bell Labs people. She's a very impressive technologist. She's an expert in photonics, and she holds 11 patents, so I think easily one of the top technical talents that we've interviewed. She's a serial entrepreneur and her latest company is especially exciting, called WiTricity. They transfer, get this, electrical energy or power over distance without wires. Larry: Wow! Lucy: So imagine all the cables in a room-size space, all the cables disappearing. I personally think that would be just fabulous, considering all the cables I have right here in my office. I'm sure that we'll hear more about the technology, but I watched a YouTube video on WiTricity which I thought was hilarious, and people who are listening to this interview should go and pull it up and look at it, because the tag line that I wrote down was, "Being stuck in with a bad power cable is like being stuck in a bad relationship." [laughter] Lucy: That really describes their mission, and I'm very eager to get on with this interview with Katie Hall. Hi Katie, how are you? Katie Hall: I'm fine, thanks. Thanks very much for having me. Lucy: We really are looking forward to interviewing you. Why don't you tell me a bit about WiTricity? I should tell listeners that Katy is the CTO of the company, and we're very eager to hear... First of all, the name is interesting, so you might want to say why you chose it, but also what the latest happenings at the company are. Katie: OK great, thanks. WiTricity actually is a small start-up company that was founded at the end of 2007. It's a spin-out, really, from MIT and some technology that was developed there by a professor Marin Soljacic, who has a great story of how this technology came to be. Which is that he was woken up in the middle of the night a couple of times because he had a cell phone that, when it started to run out of charge, would beep. The only way he could get it to stop beeping was either to plug it in, or to actually take the battery out. You couldn't just turn the phone off. It was really annoying. You'd have to not only get up to have to deal with the phone, you'd have to find the cord, and maybe it was the fifth or sixth time in a row he'd been woken up and he finds himself standing in the kitchen holding the phone in his hand and looking at the outlet on the wall and saying, "Why can't this thing take care of its own charging? How come I can't just get the power from the outlet to the phone?" It really motivated him to start thinking about how could he get that power wirelessly to his cell phone. So, he did some looking around, being an MIT professor, you go off and you try to see what's already out there, is there a solution to the problem. But he couldn't find anything that could be used in a house that would be very efficient. There are things like radio waves that are used to transmit information from cell phone towers and for TV broadcasts and things like that. There are inductive systems where, if you have an electric toothbrush in your bathroom you might know that if you put it in the cradle it'll recharge itself. Those kinds of systems only work over very short distances. He wanted to be able to go actually a couple of feet. So he came up with this idea that he should be able to use resonance as a way to transfer the power, and the nice thing about resonance is that power is transferred between two resonant objects very efficiently, but it doesn't transfer power to anything else that is off-resonance. For something like a home application, you can transfer power from the outlet to the phone, but you're not going to put that power anywhere else, it's not going to be going into people or plants or any of the objects around it. So it's this great technology. He came up with it, demonstrated it, and the amount of interest from people when they saw the first demonstration, which was lighting a light bulb over about six or seven feet... Actually, the team was sitting in between the source coil and the receiver coil and then they were lighting a light bulb, and it just captured people's imaginations in a way that was amazing. Marin started to receive all kinds of calls and emails from people saying, "This is fantastic. Could I use it for this application, or that application?" We realized that this is the kind of thing that you start a company around. I'd known Marin for many years and had worked with him on other projects to do with photonics and, like you mentioned at the beginning, some of the stuff I had done originally at Bell Labs. He said, "We're going to start this company and we're looking for people who know how to do start-ups, would you be interested?" I absolutely jumped at the chance, because both the technology and the people involved in it were, to my mind, top-notch. The company has been around now for two years and we've been really doing the engineering that it takes to start to put this kind of technology into real-world products. We're looking at ways to recharge consumer electronics like cell phones and cameras and iPods and things like that, which are relatively low-power applications. We're also looking at things as different as charging electric vehicles. So, imagine you have an electric car and you can drive it into your driveway and then get out and go in the house and the car just takes care of its own charging. You don't actually have to plug it in. So, this is wide range of applications that the technology can address and we are developing all kinds of systems now to prove it out. Larry: Wow, that's fantastic. Lee: Can I be one of your pilot users? Lucy: Yeah. Larry: There you go. Wow. Lee: Awesome. Larry: Katie, we know prior to WiTricity, you were the founder of Wide Net Technologies but how did you exactly get into technology period? And then the other part of it is what technology do you find today that's very cool? Katie: Well, I was trying to think about how did I first get started, and I think for me really when I got the most interested in it, at least in science was in college. And oddly enough, I had no thought of being, spending my life or my career in science. When I entered college, I was really thinking more about being a politician because I really just... There were lots of things I felt there like the way they work and I thought just... You can make the world better and I can do that by being politician. That was really what my goal was when I first started. But I wanted to get my science requirement out of the way. So, I signed up for physics course when I was a freshman and it was a web course. Those introductory physics classes that you take where you roll a card stone and incline and you shoot balls out of pens and some things like that. And I just love it. It was so much fun. It was fun to actually do the work. It was fun to see there were equations that people understood the laws of motion and you could write down equations and predict how things are going to happen. And I just got absolutely hooked by the technology and especially by having my hands on something, working in the lab. And so then really, it only took me one semester before I switch my major with physics from there and on out that was really how I got interested in it. In terms of technology that I think is cool is I like the simplest things. I want to find something in the store that is a solution to some problem you have around the house. For example, one of the things I like to collect are these bicycle cups. I don't know if you have really seen those but they are sort of concentric rings and you can extend them and it forms a cup and then you can push them back down, pack it up and use it to carry in your back pocket. So, lot of the technologies that I like are very simple design that solve some kind of a fundamental problem. I really just like that something you look at it, you get it right away. And you do just think it's cool. I mean anybody who loves technology loves to see something well done like that well designed. Lucy: So, Katie, it's clear that you've been a serial entrepreneur and it sounds like from what you are just saying that it started off in college wanting to change the world. Tell us about what it is about entrepreneurship that really excite you and why you continue to work with new start-ups. Katie: Oh, it's funny. I think it is actually the same motivation which is that you want to make the world better. We can have an idea. You think you can see the way things are being done and you think they are not being done the best way they can be done and that you have a better solution and you want to go out and you want to prove it to people and you want to make it available to people. I think it's just so exciting to do a start up. You find a team of people. I love team work. I've always played sports all of my life. So, I really do enjoy being part of the team. It's kind of alarming when you work on your own and I think this is... When you get the right group of people together, what's the expression about the whole is more than the full its parts. When you can find something that comes together like that and all of a sudden your efforts are being amplified by the people around you and you are making real progress and you are able to change things. WiTricity is a great example. When we saw the excitement to everybody had for us to be able to eliminate wires and all kinds of applications. Some of them are medical for example. If you want to recharge and imprint device. Some of them are industrial. You can just really hopefully make the way people live, make their lives better with the technology and being able to be part of the team that developed that is really exciting. Lee: I say it's exciting. I'm sitting here and thinking can I come and help? It's very exciting. Lucy: I mean this is like a breakthrough technology. Katie: We love all the help we can get. Lee: Well, and so, it is a case I think that in your technologies, you are improving the world. I mean that's one of the goals that drive great technologists. Along the entrepreneurial past, who influenced you? Your mentors or who encourage you? We are always eager to hear that because it is very insightful. Katie: Yeah. It's interesting and I think it's important to recognize the people that helped you along the way because I certainly know I wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for people that really helped me out every step of the way. And I think for me it started even when I was just a little kid. My grandfather was a bit of a tinker-er and an inventor. He was always coming up with things around the house. He made special kinds of carts that we could drive around in the driveway and built an automatic rebound machine. And he was only doing a little workshop down in the basement and he always includes us on that. Come on down and let's take this thing apart and figure out how it works. So, he was definitely a guy who was always curious and interested and because being around that note kind of sunk in. And of course, I also have to credit my mom as well who just was really... She just believed in all of us. All of her children so strongly that she would say, you've got to find what it is that you are good at and you have to do it well because the world needs people like that. And about that specifically saying go into science or that sort of thing but just find out what it is that you can do and try to make the world a better place. When I got to college, I had a great professor who actually taught that first class that I talked about. And really encourage me to stay in science. Especially when you're a freshman, if someone takes the time to find out who you are and what you're thinking, what you're interested in... In the case of Liz, she watched out for me all through college and told me, "These are the classes you should be taking." Before I finished up I actually worked in her lab on campus, just sitting around and talking, and finding out what her life had been like. You know, people who will stand by you. You have good weeks and bad weeks, you have good tests and bad test. Having somebody encourage you all along, so you keep that chin up and keep moving. Those kinds of people in your life are absolutely essential. When I went to Bell Labs I worked with a guy, his name is Bob Jopson, and he also gave me a lot of responsibility, but also a lot of help, in a really nice way. He'd give you really fun things to work on, but made sure that you had the resources that you needed to be successful. I actually went to Bell Labs before I went to graduate school. When I went to graduate school, I was lucky in the sense that I had spent a lot of time already working in the lab, and I was quite familiar with it and was able to fit right in. I had a professor at MIT, his name is Eric. He's very famous in the field of optics that he's working in, but he's a very down to earth guy. He was always there for his students, and taught us a lot about how to be professionals, how to review papers, how to participate in societies. I think I've also been especially lucky in that the people I've worked for have always been really upstanding people. They really care about doing things the right way and being ethical, and all of those things that are so important to science, and that get taught not in a class, but by working with people. I've really been blessed to have people that taught me those important lessons all the way along. Larry: That's great. With all the support that you've had over the years, and the successes that you've had over the years, what is the toughest thing that you ever had to do professionally? Katie: One of the things I love about what I do... I always think one of the most important things you can do when you're choosing a job is to consider the people that you're going to be working with. This is actually advise that Liz gave me when I was in college. She said, "Care a lot more about who you work with than what you work on." There are so many interesting problems in the world that you know you're going to be able to find good ones, but there's nothing that's really worth working on if you don't really like or trust the people that you're working with. The hardest times, when I look back on them, are times of change where maybe somebody was leaving some place to go take another position. And even though you might have been wishing them well, it's always hard when you lose a teammate, or if you had to cut down the size of a team because of the various things that were going on with the business or the economy. I think at work those are some of the hardest situations that you face. Lucy: Yeah, I think we've heard that consistently in the interviews we've done. Katie, you've had a lot of great advice, it sounds like, in your career, and we have a lot of young people that listen to our podcast. If you were sitting here today with a group of young people, what advice would you give them about entrepreneurship? Katie: That's a good question. I guess I think about the things that I've learned, and I think sometimes it's really important to try to take a risk and not be afraid to fail, because chances are you are going to fail at something along the way. You're going to certainly make mistakes, everybody does. Sometimes people can very clearly think about all the things that could go wrong down a path, but they forget to remember all the things that could go right, or how great it would be if it went right. Just because you don't know how to get to the end point, it doesn't mean you should not step off and start. Most people, if they tell you the truth about how their careers have gone or how their companies have gone, they tell you things in retrospect, "Here I am now, let me tell you how I got here, " and it can sound like such a straight path. It maybe even sounds like they knew from the very beginning how they were going to get here, when in reality, if you look back, it probably was very zig-zaggy. They might have had some completely different idea in mind, and something, in the process of solving one problem, came up that took you in a totally different direction and turned out to be your life's work. So, I'd say to take a risk and to be brave, and don't be afraid to fail, and don't take yourself out of the game. I think a lot of people are very hard on themselves, and they say, "Oh, I'm not good enough to do this, " or, "I'm not smart enough." Whatever thing they can think about themselves where they think it's a reason not to take a chance. But being an entrepreneur is very much about being part of a team, and you never know which pieces are going to come together to make that great puzzle. Not everybody is going to score a basket, and not everybody's going to be the best re-bounder. You need all different kinds of skill sets and personalities and passions, to come together in a mix that's going to make the whole enterprise work. I would just really encourage people. If you think you're interested, and you're enthusiastic and you're passionate, and you want to work hard, you should definitely take the leap, because it's just so much fun to be an entrepreneur and to be working in a start-up. Lee: That's really great advice, it's not a straight line. Sometimes you have to take the first step to see what the second step's even going to be. Katie: Oh, absolutely. Lee: I think once you understand that, you kind of go, "Yeah!" But it does take... it's a little scary sometimes. Katie: Sometimes you figure it out as you go, right? Lee: Yeah, exactly. We're really interested in understanding personal characteristics of entrepreneurs as well, Katie. We're curious about personal characteristics that you have that you think make you a successful entrepreneur. Katie: Well, one thing is I don't like to be told no. Lee: God, OK. [laughs] Katie: And in fact, when somebody tells me no, it makes me mad and I just think, "Oh, yeah? Well, let's see." Maybe that is not actually very flattering. [laughs] Larry: We want the truth. Lee: We want the truth. I mean I had an employee one time lean over to another new employee and say, "Don't say no." Whatever you do, she is not good with that word. Katie: I mean whenever you see something or somebody will say, "Oh, you can't do that. That can't be done." Well, come on. I mean there are some things fundamentally that cannot be done, but there are actually very few things that are like that. Most things are just really hard and I just love that some are very stubborn about that. If some... If I decide I think something can be done, boy, I just hard headed about it and I'll try and try and try very persistent manner. I think that is actually can be a very good quality when you have to be knocking down barriers. Most are pretty competitive like I said before, I like teamwork and I always played on teams. But I like to... You work hard to try to be the best and being part of a company is really no different. You work as a team and you want to make the best product that is out there. You want to find the best solution to a problem and you really won't take no for an answer, right? You are going to run into all kinds of problems that you can't predict. You have to be optimistic because you have to be able to sort of keep at it and keep at it and maybe it is the second time you try something you saw that maybe is the hundred time. But if you really believe that the solution is there somewhere then you find it. Lee: I changed my phraseology when I worked at Bell Labs. I never said no again when somebody asked me something. I hated it so much so I changed it to I don't know how to do that. Katie: Yet. Lee: Yet. Larry: All right, now, Katie with everything that you do and you're involved with everything else. How do you bring a balance into your personal and professional life? Katie: Oh, boy, I hope I bring a balance. [laughs] That's one of the hardest things that you have to do. I think because I have a family. I have kids and they are absolutely the most important thing in the world to me. But being a working mom or being a working parent means that you are spending a lot of time away from your kids and so finding that balance is hard. And especially I think in a start-up company, the hours are long and sometimes it's very unpredictable. As hard as you try to say, "Oh, I'm going to always make sure to map out X amount of time for home and X amount for work." It never really holds that way. I think thing about balancing is you are always tipping one way or another, right? There's always a correction that's in process. I think I try to be sensitive to that so that you make sure that you're keeping your priorities straight because sometimes, suck has the young people especially when they get started. It's like you are a lot more likely to get complaints at work if you don't show up, then you are going to get them at home if you don't show up. But that doesn't mean that you should always be giving into those. You really do have to work hard to keep that balance. I wish there was an easy answer and I wish I knew it but I seem to just sort of constantly befalling one way or the other and then trying to correct that and get it right. Larry: Just keep it up. Lee: Yeah. Yeah, we want that wireless stuff. Lucy: Yeah and speaking of that wireless stuff, you have achieved so much and your company has been going at this for a few years now. What's next for you? Where do you see Katie going? Katie: Oh, boy. Since I've already admitted that I didn't know, that I can only work back and tell you what my past is, I don't know. Right now, we are right in the middle of getting more WiTricity going. And so, my thoughts about the future for my career are... I mean I'm just all consumed right now with what I'm working on and part of the reason that is so exciting is because the technology can be applied so many places. I mean one of the things we say to people is think about it as replacing disposable batteries or extension cords. And if you think of all the places where those things are used, you can see that the applications are limitless and so we are just having so much fun learning about all the different areas where the technology could apply and building commercial systems. Even though, we've been at it for a couple of years now. The company, it's still really young in its life cycle and there are just so many exciting things happening. Right now, as far as I can see into the future, I will be working on this but we have to check in on a couple of years I guess and see. Lee: Well, so, I have a career path for you. Katie: OK. Lee: I do because I think we should have more computer sciences on Capitol Hill. So, just check back in a few years and we'll manage your campaign for when you run for Congress. Katie: I have to say I still get the urge every now and then when I see something going on. And I'd say, oh, I really wish I could do that but you only have so many hours in the day. There are only so many things you can tackle at once. Lee: Well, you will be really wealthy after this exit and then you can run for office. So, see? Larry: I love the idea. Lucy: So, Katie before we finish, I'm sure our listeners are dying to know when is the projected date for the first commercial application? Katie: Oh, yes. So, we are actually expecting that people will start to see this technology in commercial products by the end of this year beginning in next. Lee: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Lucy: Awesome. Lee: Shock beam. Awesome. Lucy: Well, Katie, thank you so much for talking with us. We really enjoyed this interview. I want to remind the listeners that they can find this at w3w3.com and NCWIT.org. Thanks so much. Please pass this on to other listeners who might be interested. Lee: Thanks Katie. Larry: Bye. Katie: Thank you very much guys. This has been really fun. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Katie HallInterview Summary: WiTricity is working on transferring electric power over distance, without wires. This groundbreaking technology, first invented at MIT, could soon power cell phones, game controllers, laptop computers, mobile robots, even electric vehicles, without ever plugging in a cord. Release Date: July 16, 2010Interview Subject: Katie HallInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 23:50

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Lisa Rau Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer, Confluence Date: April 27, 2009 Lisa Rau: Confluence Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO for the National Center for Women in Information Technology, or NCWIT. Today we're interviewing Lisa Rau, the CEO of Confluence Corp., as part of our NCWIT series "The Entrepreneurial Toolbox," and Lisa's going to talk to us today about everything you want to know about working with non-profits. We thought it would be especially interesting for this series to take advantage of Lisa's extensive experience working with non-profits and how they use technology and how it applies to social entrepreneurship. So, welcome, Lisa! Lisa Rau: Thank you! I'm glad to be here. Lucy: And with me today is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hello, I'm happy to be here. This is going to be an exciting interview for us because while our Internet radio show is strictly business, we do integrate various things where we help support non-profits and do interviews and provide links and so on, and so I can't wait to talk to Lisa. Lucy: Well, Lisa is a real role model in computer science. She has a Ph.D. in computer science and undergraduate degrees in EE and also has been in the IT industry for over 20 years. And she has extensive experience, as I mentioned, working with non-profits and I recently had the experience to chat with Lisa about this. So, very excited to talk to you about the non-profit space! Lisa: Great! Lucy: So, Lisa, tell us a bit about Confluence. What do you do? Lisa: Well, our mission is to provide information technology support and focus, of course, on the non-profit sector, and that's a wide variety of different kinds of things that's really based on what the non-profits have been asking us to do. Lucy: How did you come to focus on non-profits? What led you into that type of business? Lisa: Well, that's a good question. Many years ago, I had met a friend and a colleague who told me about his work providing technical support to non-profits and he was describing the wonderful people and the organizations and their mission that he interacted with and how rewarding he found the work was, and so when I next found myself in between jobs, a bunch of things all came together and that's where we came up with the name "Confluence." It was a "no time like the present" kind of thing and wanting to work for myself as an entrepreneur after 15, 20 years of working for someone else, wanting to create something of value, and then I had one of my close friends and colleagues, Jeff Sullivan, agree to come on board with me. We just jumped in. Larry: That's interesting. You've got to be certainly following your heart with a bunch of passion at that same time. Lisa: Absolutely. Well, of course we did our due diligence to make sure that there was a sound business model and that there really was a need for what we were thinking of offering, but since we couldn't be the do-gooders, we thought the next best thing was to help the do-gooders do better. Larry: Well, you know, they say there's quite a movement, almost a groundswell, of people really wanting to give back to the community. Of course, they've got to make a living and everything. So, for our listeners out there, could you explain the difference between working for a non-profit versus a for-profit? Lisa: Well, it ended up being different than I expected it would be coming from the for-profit world as I did. Of course, the non-profits are really focussed on their mission, and my experience has been that they tend to be less able or interested in investing in technology. I've been doing this for over eight years now. Most non-profits are really small, also. I think 90% are under a million dollars in revenue, so the majority of these organizations are just very small, so their use of technology is more limited and they also tend to have less in-house expertise. And they don't have, for example, a CTO, so they're going to turn to other outside organizations like ours for strategic support. And tech support providers in the for-profit world, there's a role for a CTO, but we as providers to non-profits have to be more versatile and strategic to provide a wide range of advice to them. Lucy: I have a follow up question to that. I also now run into more people now who are doing what I would consider non-profit work in a for-profit business model. So, do you see much of that, Lisa, sort of like "doing well by doing good for others." Do you see that type of business model very often? Lisa: Well, there's two types of business models that I've seen, and one is the classic, more social entrepreneurship where the idea is to use the profits for social benefit, or to leverage profits made in a for-profit business for philanthropy as in the Google Foundation and the Gates Foundation and so on. But I see a real role for traditional for-profit firms to support the non-profit sector. It's a very hard business because they don't have a lot of money and they are so small, but it does allow you to both come up with a sustainable business model, because that is a requirement for for-profit businesses, which I think is a better way to address the technology needs than having non-profit technology providers that may not have to provide a sustainable service. Lucy: Listeners to our podcast series will remember that we interviewed two non-profits, Witness and Kiva and their founders, and were really excited about their use of technology in a non-profit delivery. In Witness's case, it's the use of video to expose social atrocities around the world, and Kiva is microfinance. So, Lisa, where do you see the most innovative use of IT in the non-profit space? Lisa: Well, I think those are both really good examples of innovative use of technology, but from a bang-for-the-buck perspective, I think that what those systems really do is just get into more of the cultural mainstream and raise awareness for social causes and the potential for technology to assist with social causes, rather than the bottom line amount of money, for example, that's going to go through Kiva, or the real change that's going to happen just one by one. So, I think that the opportunity for social change is much more to create an environment as part of our culture that non-profits and social-oriented ventures are worth supporting and whether it's Green or whatever your passion may be. We have seen some other innovative uses, the Kiva and Witness that you cite are certainly very well-known ones. We've done a bunch of really fun things, like one of my favorites is for the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We created a little application where you send a nugget through on a Google Maps kind of integration across 50 states and whoever gets their little chicken nugget across the 50 states wins, which was kind of a fun use of technology. Lucy: Cute. That's cool. Larry: Right. Have you ever done anything with Ashoka? Lisa: I have interacted with Ashoka. I haven't worked for them. Our company hasn't worked for them. I know a number of people who work there, actually one of my clients is from Samaritan Inns went over there to work for them. They're wonderful leaders. Larry: Yeah. All right, now what are some of the challenges, Lisa, that non-profits should be looking out for as it relates to IT? Lisa: Well, the main one is that a lot of people offer non-profits free or a low-cost donations. Sometimes the organizations think that because it's free they should try to use the technology, and it's very much a buyer beware. The other challenge is just that they don't really have as much internal expert advise, the smaller organizations, in selecting the right technical approach or managing technical projects. So, because these are often outside the organization's expertise they can be risky. We see a lot of overpaying, simply due to a lack of technical expertise or a lack of real experienced managing technology projects. So, I think a little bit of real expertise can go a very long way, and would be a good investment for organizations trying to think strategically. Lucy: So, the biggest mistake a non-profit can make in IT is? Lisa: Well, I think probably not spending enough, being "penny wise and pound foolish," I'd think, the most common mistake. I don't know if that counts as biggest. The biggest in terms of dollars is probably choosing the wrong software system. Lucy: Probably worse is having some money and spending it poorly. Lisa: Exactly. That's a lot of that "penny wise and pound foolish" mentality. I also think not understanding the strategic importance of technology, and how with the right investments you can save money for your mission just fearing technology and not trying. Lucy: Absolutely, the case. Well, now you've worked with lots of non-profits, and now I want you to put yourself in the seat of somebody starting a non-profit. What would you do first? Lisa: Well, the first thing I'd do would be really look around to see who was doing what else. I've noticed independent of our technology focus that there's just a lot of duplication out there. A lot of people startup non-profits because they want to do something that they love, and they don't really care if someone else is already doing that. So, it's a fairly inefficient delivery system. So, I would want to make sure that my non-profit was addressing a real gap in service and dealing with real needs. I would also want to outreach to other partners, and really try to work collaboratively with the other members of the environment. Larry: Boy! Lisa, this has been a great interview, and it's really a pleasure. Since you're the expert, what is the question or so that we haven't asked that we should have asked? Lisa: Well, certainly starting a business is very, very scary. I think it was the best decision I ever made. I certainly have never regretted choosing to do something with the potential for meaning. It's been extremely gratifying from that perspective, but very scary. Even though the non-profits are a very difficult business to work for, because again they are small, it's incredibly rewarding to see what they're doing, and being a part of the wonderful works that they're doing. Lucy: So tell us, in closing, where is Confluence heading? What's the future for you? Lisa: Well, we're still growing, which is good news in this economic downturn. We're always looking for good people. We've been forming a lot more partnerships this year with other for-profit companies to provide complimentary services. The main thing from a technology end that we've been doing recently is we've been implementing a bunch of new Websites, a lot of focus on the social networking, what's the so-called web 2.0 technology? That's been a big part of what we've been doing recently. Of course, just as any business grows, we've been changing and we're looking at internal reorganization. It doesn't sound too sexy, but that's the reality of businesses as they grow. They have to change. Lucy: So, say a bit about the social networking and how non-profits can and should take advantage of that new channel. Lisa: Well, it's another one of those kind of buyer beware areas, because there is so much buzz. A lot of what we do is just explain to our clients what that really means and what their options are. A lot of them want to dive right in and have a lot of little widgets on their Website to interact with their audience, but there's no one there to monitor that or to feed it to make it a vibrant community. So, it ends up kind of a detraction. So, we're very much interested in ensuring that what gets deployed is appropriate for the environment and not a field of dreams. We have seen a lot of movement towards that. It's been a little slower, but non-profits are all about building community outreach, advocacy, education. These are all things that social networking can be very instrumental in. Larry: So, if I understood you right, it's better to have one or two widgets that you can really work with, rather than the whole group of 7-10? Lisa: Absolutely. I've even seen organizations try to start small with just say a blog, and they're not able to keep that up, because they don't realize that the technology is the easy part. It's the organizational part, where someone actually has to write the blog, and post it, and review comments, and so on, that has to be on there to keep it fresh and worthwhile. Lucy: Well, that's really true for us at NCWIT. We find that we have lots of distribution channels, and keeping the content supplied to those channels is really quite tough. It's more than a full-time job. Lisa: That's exactly what I'm talking about, and building things smartly so that they're not overrun with spam, and not insecure, and so on. Lucy: Well, so maybe in closing, let me ask this; so I'm the CEO of a non-profit, and in advising me, where would you tell me to start in technology? What would be the first thing to look at or the second thing to look at? What kinds of things do you often say to people like me, as it relates to this example? Lisa: Well, I'm a very big fan of a process that we do, not just self-serving there, but it's a strategic technology assessment that comes in and interviews all of the stakeholders and inventories all of the assets. That process can give the organization a complete understanding of where the opportunities are, so they that can then prioritize them and come up with a specific plan for the next couple of years. That really helps a new organization to get started. Lucy: That sounds like a good process. Larry: Yeah. It sure does. By the way, starting in March 2001, it's kind of like starting in March 2009, economic wise. Lisa: Exactly. Lucy: Oh, starting over. Yeah. I got it. It took my brain a little while, but I did finally get that. Well, Lisa thanks very much. It was great talking to you. Lisa: Thank you. It was wonderful! Larry: It was a pleasure. Once again, Lucy, I don't know how you and your team line up all these magnificent people, but NCWIT.org, you've got some wonderful connections and interviews, but lots of information. I must say that it's a pleasure for w3w3.com to host, and also to have a special channel for all of these interviews where you can tune-in 24/7. Make sure you tell your friends about it, and by the way, Tweet about it if you would like. Lisa: Tweet about it, only if Lisa says it's OK. Man 1: Is it OK, Lisa? Lisa: Sure. Larry: All right. Lucy: OK. Thank you very much, Lisa. Lisa: OK. Thank you both. Lucy: That was great. We really do appreciate it, and I'll be in touch. Larry: All Right. Lisa: OK. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Lisa RauInterview Summary: Lisa Rau wanted to create something rewarding, something of her own, something of value when she created Confluence. As she discusses here, entrepreneurship is scary but incredibly satisfying: "with the risks come the rewards." Release Date: April 27, 2009Interview Subject: Lisa RauInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 15:53

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Jessica Jackley Co-Founder, kiva.org Date: September 29, 2008 Jessica Jackley: Kiva Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO for the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT. This is one in a continuing series of interviews that we are doing with women who have started either IT companies or organizations that are based on information technology. We are very excited that we have Jessica Flannery here today from Kiva to talk to us. Also with me is Larry Nelson, from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: It's really a pleasure to be here and I must say we are getting tremendous feedback from not only adults who are having their children listen to some of these interviews, but some of the employers that are looking for more women and more technical people to get into the business which is sometimes a very good step to becoming an entrepreneur. Lucy: Also with me today is Lee Kennedy who is a Director of NCWIT and a serial entrepreneur herself. Right now, her current company is called Tricalix. Hi Lee. How are you? Lee Kennedy: Hi Lucy. Hi Larry. It is so good to be here. Larry: It is. We are the three L's, right? Lucy, Lee and Larry or something. Lucy: Or something. Welcome Jessica. We are very happy to have you with us today and the topic that we are going to talk about, I mean, you're fabulous social entrepreneur, and I think that this whole area of micro-finance and what Kiva is doing is just fascinating. And as part of this interview, we all went and spent time on the Kiva site and just really got lost in all the wonderful stories that are our there. So welcome. Jessica Flannery: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Lucy: Well, for our listeners, I'm sure everybody knows but it bears repeating that Kiva is the first peer to peer micro loan website. It really demonstrates how the Internet can be used to facilitate these meaningful types of connections between people who want to lend money and entrepreneurs all over the world especially in developing countries, how we can all help each other really move the economies ahead. It's a really fascinating website. So Jessica, why don't you just spend a minute and tell us a bit about Kiva. Jessica: Sure. You said it very, very well and very concisely. We are the world's first person to person micro lending website so anybody in the world can go onto the site, browse business profiles and entrepreneur profiles really I should say. Whether that person is a farmer or selling small goods in their village or a seamstress or a restaurant owner, there are all different kinds of small business. And you can lend as little as $25 to that entrepreneur and over time you get updates on that business and then you get paid back. Larry: Wow! Lucy: Well, and Kiva is a fairly young organization. I read someplace that you started a bit of a hobby website and it just exploded. Jessica: Yeah. It's been a very, very busy last four years. Four years ago, I learned about micro-finance and decided that's what I want to do. I quit another job and I went to East Africa for a few months to see it up close and personal. While I was there it was impossible not to be deeply moved by the stories of success of people that I was meeting. People who had used often just a $100 to change their lives and lifted their families out of poverty. So, I became really excited about these stories and wanted to share them with my own friends and family. And as I did that, my husband Matt and I kept asking not just "Oh, this is great. Micro-finance works, but wow, how do we, and our friends and family, how do we enable people to lend money directly to these individuals we're meeting?" So, it started out with a very specific way, very specific context with individuals who we had met face to face in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda who we wanted to help. We wanted to participate in their amazing stories, and we wanted to see them get to the next level. So what we did was basically Matt came to visit me during his time in East Africa, and then he went back home, built our website. We emailed our friends and family and said "Hey, we have seven businesses in Uganda that we'd like to lend a total of $3,000 to. Do you want to pitch in?" Then overnight that money came in and we sent that along to Uganda. We had a six month kind of beta round with these seven entrepreneurs in Uganda. After the six months they had repaid, we took the word beta off of our website and that launched us. And that was just in October of '05, so not even quite three years ago. Our first year was $500,000 a month, the second year was $13.5 million more, and today we're just around $45 million, and we haven't even finished our third year. So it's grown very rapidly. Lucy: And you have an incredible payback on the loans, incredible payback percent. Jessica: Yeah, it's in a high 90 percentage. That's representative of a micro finance alone, not just our site. Lucy: But wow, that's just and incredible history and such a good cause as well. One of the things that I noticed there was a Soft-tech video on YouTube that I watched that I thought was very interesting. Where you mentioned that you all created the tool that Kiva uses really to match lenders and entrepreneurs without really knowing how the world would use it to your previous story. This gets us to our first question which is around technology, and I thought you would have a really interesting spin on this. You know, how in general do you see technology helping missions like those of Kiva? Slightly different than potentially a four-profit business but you have incredibly interesting uses of technology. So what do you see in the future? Jessica: Kiva does a lot of different things, but our mission is to connect people through lending to alleviate poverty. The real key there is to connect people. The money transfer is very interesting, and technology obviously helps that happened, but what really we care about is this connectivity. Loans happen to be a great tool for poverty alleviation as well as connectivity. I mean, if you lend me something and I have it and I'm fully giving it back to you, you're going to pay a little bit more attention usually, than if you just donate something and I tell you how that's going forever and ever. That back and forth communication is obviously free or a lot less expensive. It's quick. It's real time. You can see on the other side of the planet how this person is waiting right now today for that $200 that's going to allow them to start their business. So there are all these elements, but then technology makes it faster, more efficient, less expensive and just overall easier to have that human connection happen. Very specifically while I said the money is not the point, it's a great tool for a lot of things. For example, we've had a lot of help from great technology leaders out there that we've been able to leverage. So PayPal, we're the first non-profit to have PayPal generously agree to provide free payment transactions. So we have literally zero variable costs for sending these little bits of money back and forth all around the planet every day. Lucy: Well, one thing too, I'm a technologist so I'll get off this question in just a minute. I know Larry and Lee are looking at me like "Let's move off the technology." But I do have one more thing to observe here, because this is a different kind of interview than we've done. There is a whole growing area called ICT for D which is Information and Communication Technology for Developing World and one of the things that I have read that you either have done or will do is you make an offline browser so that people can conserve power on their computer, sort of a low energy kind of browser so they don't have to be always plugged in. That's an example of the type of technology around ICT for D that you have to start thinking about the climates and the situation and the resources that people have all around the world. Jessica: It's been very, very interesting for us to see, even how sometimes we'll have really wonderful generous lenders say, "Hey, I also want to donate financially or otherwise." And let's say they send a great batch of brand new video cameras for us to send out to the field. Well, sometimes actually a lower tech solution is better, because of the technology that's available in the field. So maybe we don't need the highest quality photos, the highest res photos, maybe a lower tech solution is better. That's been interesting to watch, just figuring out really what's the best and what's the most appropriate tools to get the job done. Lee: That's exactly right. Lucy: So, we normally ask what it is that you love about being an entrepreneur, but since you're working with entrepreneurs it would be great to hear about the stories from the entrepreneurs out of Kiva, as well as what it is that love about this whole environment and the entrepreneurship. Jessica: OK. This is a really good question. What I found is the idea of being an entrepreneur, I think that's really attractive to a lot of people. I think there are some, I don't want to put value judgments on it, good or bad, better or worse, but I think sometimes it has to do with freedom or this idea of being your own boss, or something like that. For me, my introduction to business and my entrepreneurship at all was in Africa seeing people who were gold hunters, or subsistence farmers, or fishermen, or people who were basically entrepreneurship to them was doing what they needed to do every day to survive. It was definitely not an option. They had to do the next thing, figure out the next step to get closer and closer to their goal to find food, and they could survive that day. It was very hand-to-mouth sort of entrepreneurship. It wasn't what we usually think of in Silicon Valley as entrepreneurship being super innovated perhaps or anything like that, but in context it was as innovative as anything else in Silicon Valley would have been, and as much entrepreneurship as anything else that you would see in other places of the world. For me, it's funny. I guess yet that it's true, when you look back at what we've done in Kiva the last four years, great! We have been social entrepreneurs, but we didn't go out thinking, I definitely thought over the years, over the last few years, "Oh, social entrepreneurship. How great! I want to do something like that." Then what happened is you have to get specific. You have to start with something specific. So, we started to do Kiva, a very, very specific mission of Kiva, and then retroactively we're like, "Oh, yeah. I guess that's what we're doing. It's pretty entrepreneurial, isn't it?" It came down to, "We have this mission, and we're going to do whatever we need to do everyday to make it happen. We're going to be scrappy if we need to. We're going to iterate. We're going to put things out there that maybe aren't even perfect. We're going to keep moving, and everyday say, 'What can we do next to meet our goals?'" That's what it felt like to me to be entrepreneurial. I think it's really been informed by the people that originally inspired us in the first place, and these micro-entrepreneurs all over the world. Lucy: You know what? That's just what entrepreneurs do. Everyday they're looking around, trying to figure out what they can do better. Do you have a story or two that you can share with some of the entrepreneurs that have taken loans and been successful, and then paid the loans off? Jessica: Sure. I mean there are so, so many. It's actually one of the hardest questions I get, because really I mean every one of them is amazing. If you want an amazing success story, I can tell you for example there was a woman that really was one of the very first people I ever met in East Africa. She did such amazing stuff. She had started one business, like a charcoal selling business. She had gotten them $800. For that initial business, she did like the equivalent of what a multi-national corporation would do, like all the principals were there. She started the one business, and then she diversified. Then she expanded, not from her local market, she went to markets in other trading centers and other villages. She extended beyond her geographic region. She started five other small businesses of all different types. I mean really things that you really wouldn't think would be related. What she did was she got practice, and then she got very good at seeing market needs and seeing opportunities. So, she had the capitol after time, and she was able to say, "Huh." I think of a very small caring business that you could start with $200 or $300. I think that's what made it. So she did that, and she did the next thing, and the next thing. She just blew me away, because you knew that had she just been dealing in another environment with bigger numbers, she would be the head of a huge multi-national corporation that was doing all sorts of different things really well. So, people like that just always blow me away. I would say truly, it sounds like a bit of a cheesy answer, but the real truth is any story that you read on the Kiva site, there's something to learn, there's something to appreciate, and there's something good. I think say, "Hey! Good job there, " to the entrepreneurs for doing it, because each person is taking a risk even just in accepting a loan, and putting themselves out there and saying, "I'm going to try. I'm going to try to do things differently. I'm going to try and make my life better, and life for my family better." Just taking advantage of that opportunity is something I think should really be applauded, and in and of itself is really a triumph and a great thing, a great thing to see happen. So, that's the hardest question to answer, because all of the entrepreneurs that you can see, I truly find inspirational in something. Lucy: Well, thank you for sharing that. That really is inspirational. Lee: Well, the other thing, and I'm sure somebody has already tumbled to this, there's a business book in this. When you said that she was making all the right entrepreneurial business moves, there's got to be a lot of nuggets of wisdom in there. Larry: You had mentioned offline Jessica, that you are involved with Ashoka? Jessica: Well, yes. I mean, I have found a lot of inspiration in Ashoka over the years, and sort of been introducing the idea of social entrepreneurship through Ashoka. Additionally, he has been honored with the Ashoka Fellowship very recently. We're really excited to be part of that community. Larry: Congratulations! Let me get on with another question here. Who has been either a role model or a mentor in your career, in your life? Jessica: Oh, my goodness! Now, that's the hardest question. I feel like I have been so blessed and so surrounded by encouragers. I mean, can I say like my top five? Larry: OK. Jessica: My parents first and foremost have always given me... Actually, it was really funny. I watched the Emmys last night. I actually don't have a television, but I was with and brother and sister-in-law in L.A., and we were watching the Emmys a little bit. She was saying something funny. She was like, "Thanks to my mom and dad for giving me confidence, that was to the portion that was my looks and ability." It was like "that's what my parents said." My parents first and foremost made it without question an obvious thing, that I could do anything I wanted to in the world. So, that was kind of the foundational piece in a very supportive family. There's been a few others. When I heard Dr. Hamadias speak, his story spoke to me like no others had at that point. That's what propelled me to quit my job and go off and try to figure out micro-finance for myself, and try to do something like what he did, like walk around meet people, listen to their needs, and help. So, he gave me a huge inspiration. Then I guess, the other person I'll mention is Brian Reynolds actually gave me that opportunity to go. He is the Founder and Executive Director of a really great organization called "Village Enterprise Fund." They give $100 grants to entrepreneurs for business creation. They really start people on the very first string of the economic ladder. These are actually folks who are doing such risky things like their systems filing that "If it doesn't rain, everything is lost." Really, really small businesses, who their commissioners wouldn't take a loan probably because they would be not in the right position to do so. Their organization is amazing. I basically met with Brian right around the time I decided I was going to figure out a way to work in micro-finance. He really gave me that opportunity. He listened to me, kind of met me where I was and said, "Hey." Even though I had no skills that I could really name. I had studied philosophy and poetry undergrad. I had done event planning, and administrative things in my job. I really didn't have a lot to go on to say "look, this is why you should hire me, and let me go do micro-finance," but he gave me that chance. On that trip. out to East Africa with Village Enterprise Fund, that's what changed my life, and that's where we had the ideas for Kiva. So, I am absolutely grateful for him, among many, many other in my life over the last decade. There's a lot of people. Lee: Well, that's the good thing about entrepreneurship as well that there are lots of other good people around to encourage you, and to offer wisdom. One piece of wisdom that we've been getting lots of interesting answers too on this particular interview series is the toughest thing you've ever had to do. So, we're curious. What is the toughest thing so far, that you've had to do in your career? Jessica: That is a really good question. I would say without a doubt that it has been...really tough to... you know when you do something that you care about so much, and also something that is like with the social mission I think, it becomes your baby. It becomes like your...I don't know there all these analogies, your right arm, you just feel so attached. It has been a challenge I think to do the work life balance thing in any way because you just feel so driven, so consumed by it, and you want to spend all your waking hours on it, but that can be unhealthy and actually lead to burn out and that sort of thing. So finding the right balance has been probably the biggest challenge and also being removed enough to make objective decisions. You know, it's always a challenge when you are so in love with the work that you get to do. Lee: So speaking of personal and professional balance what do you do to bring balance with all the entrepreneurs you're trying to help, and the changes on the website, how do you manage that? Jessica: Well, I think it's just about kind of knowing what your priorities are and knowing what your boundaries are of what you can control and what you can't and then just working away. I think it is just a daily reminding and daily recalibration saying, "OK, here is what we are about. Here's what we can do. Here's what we can't do and let's just keep moving forward." I think another trick too is just checking yourself often to make sure you are not making decisions others fear or panic in any way. We haven't really... we're an interesting state where we haven't had a competitors per se really, and we don't even think that way. But if we were forced to look at other kind of collaborative organizations out there as competitors, even if we saw them as such, I think it would be the wrong move to be driven to make any sort of decisions, or move to out of the place of fear. Just like it is in life, just kind of knowing who you are, and what you're about, knowing who you're not and just doing that, like the trying to respond to what else is out there or what someone else is doing. I think staying true and pure to your own mission is what it is about. It will make you stay sane. Larry: You have actually kind of covered part of the question I was going to ask you and that is, you've done so many things Jessica and you work with all kinds of people around the world but if you were right now sitting down in front of a young potential entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Jessica: OK, I have the privilege of getting to do this quite a bit. This is the number one thing I would say, two things. Follow whatever you are really passionate about. It can be something that doesn't make a lot of sense like what do you do when we were passionate about the stories, how do you follow that? We loved them, we celebrated them, we read them ourselves, we laughed, we cried, we just got into those stories and then by sharing those stories, the thing that we are passionate about with the people that we were passionate about, our friends and family, that led to some really great stuff. So just follow as best you can, the stuff that you are passionate about would be number one. Two, if you're going to do something and start something and you really believe that's kind of what you were meant to do next, I would say don't be afraid to start small. In fact, that is really the only way to begin. I just finished my MBA at Stanford. I can't say enough good things about that place and that community. It was amazing. Additionally, it's a place where it is easy to think big very quickly and say "let's go change the world in these huge huge ways and let's have..." you know you don't want to start something unless it's scalable and unless it is going to touch three million people in its first two years or whatever. Easy to say think big or go home and what's your plan for scalability? You need to know that right now. I would say to a budding entrepreneur, don't be afraid, to be very, very specific about what you want to do, and how you want to begin. You should definitely think long term, too. But goodness, it's not a bad thing to start small, and in fact I really really believe that is kind of the way you have to do it and just do a little plug. There's a wonderful man who I would consider a mentor and certainly someone I have looked up to and learned a lot from. His name is Paul Polak, and he wrote a book called "Out of Poverty." He really talks a lot about being in contact like designing whatever you are designing, particularly if it's a program, or a service, or a product to serve the poor, go be with the people that you want to serve. Go get to know them as individuals and design things for individuals not this group of statistic of statistics or the masses. Go meet real people, design for them, start with the, serve them, and then see how you can grow things. That would be my recommendation, don't be afraid to start small and be really passionate about what you are doing because that's the way good things happen. Lucy: Dare I say that that I am old and wizened woman but you know your advice about starting small and don't be afraid to do that, it feels a lot like something I've come to view as being true. You just often don't know what the next turn is going to be. You have to live it a while, and see how things change and mature, and then be opportunistic about which way things are going to go because you often don't see the end. Jessica: Oh, yes and you can't. Lucy: You can't. Jessica: You actually probably sometimes cannot see the next step. It is totally impossible until you make the first one. Lucy: That's fine and that's actually part of the fun, isn't it? Larry: It is part of the fun. It's also by the way a big part of the book that I'm just finishing. Lucy: Oh, you had to plug your book. Larry: "Master and change," yes. Lucy: You had to plug your book. Larry: Oh well. Lucy: Well so I think we have a book here. So I have to ask you though, is there such a big about entrepreneurism and Kiva about teaching the basic elements of entrepreneurship? Jessica: No, not yet, but I think there are about 20 books we can write with them, different angles, different experiences, Web 2.0, the power of connecting people, what have we learned about business from the entrepreneurs out there? There's a lot of potential. Lucy: Oh, absolutely. I look forward to it. Jessica: Yeah, me too. Lucy: You've already really achieved a lot. It's quite inspirational to talk to you and kiva is just such a great organization. What's next for you? We just talked about how sometimes you can't see around the corner, do you have any long term vision that you want to share with our listeners about what's next? Jessica: No, I don't, but I will say that something that's been crazy is just this feeling that... I mean this is like my life dream. You read my favorite business school. I would say it was from three years ago. I would say it was basically someday maybe maybe I will get to be a part of something like this. I feel like the luckiest person in the world and to think that there could be other things in the future just blows my mind. I feel overwhelmed even thinking about it but overall in the most positive way because I already feel like this is my life. If my life ended tomorrow, I would be very a really thankful, happy person because I feel like I've gotten to see my dream kind of come true. Everything else is icing on the cake. What I am trying to do is to stay open to possibility, and learn, and read, and talk to people, and stay open to observing what is going on out there. I am thankful for kiva, and I am thankful for whatever the future hold, but yeah I'll let you know when I know. Larry: All right. Lucy: That has to be the most inspirational thing I have ever heard. I mean just to hear the passion in your voice and the excitement, it gives me goose bumps. I'm happy for you. I hope other people benefit from all the work that you are doing. Jessica: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I just feel very very lucky. Larry: Wow, Jessica I want to thank you for joining us today. This was marvelous plus. Jessica: Thank you. Man 1: By the way you listeners out there, would you pass this interview along to others who you think would be interested. We will make sure that we have a website link to kiva. Say your website. Jessica: It's www.kiva.org. Larry: Sounds wonderful. This has just been great here we are with the National Center for Women and Information Technology. You are doing some great stuff by bringing these messages out for people who are doing wonderful things. Thanks. Lucy: Well thanks and listeners can find these interviews at www.ncwit.org and at w3w3.com. Larry: You bet. Lucy: So thank you very much. Larry: Thank you. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Jessica JackleyInterview Summary: Jessica is a remarkable social entrepreneur who is Co-Founder and Chief Marketing Officer of www.kiva.org -- the first peer-to-peer micro-lending website. Kiva connects lenders with entrepreneurs from the developing world, empowering them to rise out of poverty. Release Date: September 29, 2008Interview Subject: Jessica JackleyInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 25:02

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Anousheh Ansari Chairman and Co-founder, Prodea Systems, Inc. Date: October 12, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Anousheh Ansari BIO: Anousheh Ansari earned a place in history in 2006 as the fourth private explorer, the first woman private explorer, and the first astronaut of Iranian descent to visit space. Back on Earth, Anousheh returned to her job as co-founder and chairman of Prodea Systems, a company that hopes to dramatically alter and simplify consumers' digital living experience. Prior to founding Prodea Systems, Anousheh served as co-founder, chief executive officer and chairman of the board for telecom technologies, inc. The company successfully merged with Sonus Networks, Inc., a provider of IP-based voice infrastructure products in a deal worth approximately $750M. To help drive commercialization of the space industry, Anousheh and her family provided title sponsorship for the Ansari X Prize, a $10 million cash award for the first non-governmental organization to launch a reusable manned spacecraft into space twice within two weeks. This feat was accomplished in 2004 by legendary aerospace designer Burt Rutan. A living example of the American dream, Anousheh immigrated to the United States as a teenager who did not speak English. She immersed herself in education, earning a bachelor’s degree in electronics and computer engineering from George Mason University, followed by a master's degree in electrical engineering from George Washington University. She has an honorary doctorate from the International Space University which she was honored with while she was on board the International Space Station. She is currently working toward a master's degree in astronomy from Swinburne University. Anousheh is a member of the Association of Space Explorers and is on the advisory board of the Teachers in Space project. She has received multiple honors, including the World Economic Forum Young Global Leader, DFW International Community Alliance Hall of Fame award, the Working Woman’s National Entrepreneurial Excellence Award, George Mason University’s Entrepreneurial Excellence Award, George Washington University's Distinguished Alumni Achievement Award, and the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award for Southwest Region. While under her leadership, Telecom Technologies earned recognition as one of Inc. magazine's 500 fastest-growing companies and Deloitte & Touche’s Fast 500 technology companies. She currently works to enable social entrepreneurs to bring about radical change globally, with organizations such as X Prize, ASHOKA and the PARSA Community Foundation. Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT. And this is one of a series of interviews we are doing with women who have started IT companies. We've heard some wonderful stories from some very fabulous women, and we have another great interview in this series today. With me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Larry, why don't you tell us a little bit about w3w3? Larry Nelson: My wife, Pat, and I started the Internet radio show, w3w3.com, in 1998. We archive everything from photos to articles and all of the interviews. And this NCWIT hero series, I tell you, is one of the most exciting projects ‑‑ period ‑‑ that we've ever worked on. And it's getting a great deal of response from both business and government, as well as education. Lucy: Well and we're really happy to have you here today, and we're also very grateful that you are syndicating this series on your site as well. Also with us is Lee Kennedy, NCWIT board director and serial entrepreneur herself, having just started a new company called Tricalyx - helping all of us use the web better for our businesses. So, welcome, Lee. Lee Kennedy: Thanks, Lucy. These are really fun to participate in. Lucy: Well today, we have a great interview with Anousheh Ansari, the chairman and cofounder of Prodea Systems. I took a look at the website of Prodea Systems, and it's just got the coolest mission. It's a new company. It's focused on the home, on the digital environment within the home. Everything from voice services and networking services in the home to parental control and maybe child control. That would be all right, too. And home automation. Anousheh has the coolest title, Larry and Lee, I have to tell you. Because not only is she chairman and cofounder of Prodea Systems, but she also has the title of "first private female space explorer." Larry: All right! Lucy: So Anousheh, we are really happy to have you here. Welcome. Anousheh: Thank you. I'm happy to be on the show. Lucy: With that, we'll just get right to the interview. We have a lot of questions to ask you about entrepreneurship and technology. Lee: So Anuosheh, one of my favorite questions is to hear how you first got into technology. Was it something through your childhood, or there was a moment in time that it all started being so interesting? And then we'd also love to know, what do you think are cool today, as far as the technologies that are out? Anousheh: I always loved science and math growing up. I was born in Iran; I grew up there and then came to the United States when I was about 16 years old. And I thought that this was my opportunity to get involved with something really cool and great. And that's why... When I graduated from high school, at that time the field of telecommunication and electrical engineering was the hottest field, and it was growing and a lot of technology was being developed back then. And that's why I chose electrical engineering as my career and ended up getting a bachelor degree and a master's degree in electrical engineering - and basically built a career in telecommunication dealing with planning and developing the future networks that would allow communication technologies to be enhanced. This is what we see today. And I think that's one of the coolest things today with the Internet, the use of Internet by the entire population ‑ as part of education and just on a daily basis for communication. I think that has been one of the coolest technologies that has been developed, and it has in the past decade. Lucy: Anousheh, you cofounded Telecom Technologies in the early 90s, when you were doing some of the early work on voice over IP and soft switches. Anousheh: Exactly, yes. Lucy: That was a pretty exciting time. We were working on that in Bell Labs, and so we followed your company. So it was a great effort and very entrepreneurial. Anousheh: Yes. One of the things that really gets me excited and makes me start up companies is the fact that you can basically build something new, try to introduce a change in a way that people are used to doing certain activities, and basically create something out of scratch that doesn't exist and would revolutionize whatever it is that you are trying to do with it. So that's part of the reason I love being able to be a technologist and being in this field, and also being able to start up companies that introduce these types of new gadgets into the market. Larry: That's a great segue into a question I've got. Here you are, Anousheh. You're the first female private space explorer. All kinds of opportunities. A wonderful background. And there's always the risk, as well as the adrenaline rush about being an entrepreneur. What is it... You were just beginning to talk about some of the reasons why you are an entrepreneur. And what about being an entrepreneur makes you tick? Anousheh: Well, being an entrepreneur means that you are sort of inventing something new. You're giving birth to a company. You're giving birth to a new product, a new service. And that's always exciting. And to me, I don't like to just have a repetitive life where I do the same thing over and over. I love to be able to learn something new, explore something new. I'm an explorer by nature, and being an entrepreneur allows me to explore new opportunities and technologies. And that's the best part of it. But also, being an entrepreneur I love to help people, and I think through the products that we develop in my company, we will be able to help a lot of people. Whether it's help them to get over the difficulties of a technology and use it. This is what we do with my new company at Prodea. Or helping employees, creating new jobs, new opportunities for people that work in my company. So all along, whether it's creating something or just building a company and giving others the opportunity to build a career, I think it's exciting to be at the helm of these types of activities and that's what makes being an entrepreneur really exciting for me. Lucy: Well and your new company is in a great niche, I have to say. We're shopping for a new washer and dryer now, and we can actually put it on the network in our house. Larry: Oh, wow. Lucy: I'm not sure what I'm going to say to the washer and dryer. But Anousheh, maybe you can help me out with that. Anousheh: The technology we're developing is geared toward taking advantage of all these new smart devices that are being built for the home. But one thing we realized was that we wanted everyone to be able to take advantage of this new technology and use it. But it is sometimes complicated. A lot of things are based on PC, and some of our parents, for example, are not really excited about using PCs, and it's a drag for them. So, it doesn't have to be that way. Technology doesn't have to be difficult to use or complicated. We feel technology is something that's there to make your life easier not more difficult. So what we've done is we've decided to make all these technologies very simple and easy to use. And as much as possible let you use your TV and your remote control to interface with everything smart in your house and manage everything versus having to deal with a computer. Lucy: Well, it really does sound like a great company. And like I said, it really does fill a great niche for people, especially some of the things like data backup and other things that people put a lot of time and effort into their computers and then they lose it all, for example if it crashes. So it's a great value proposition. In this series, we are very interested in asking people about their role models or people who really encouraged them on this path toward entrepreneurship. Can you tell us a bit about who influenced you? Anousheh: I have to say the biggest influence in my life has been by husband, who is also my partner in the business. We started our companies together, and he's always been there encouraging me to take on new challenges in my life. And when I do take them on, he's right beside me supporting and helping me through all the difficult time. So having a really good partner, whether it's a good friend, someone in your family or a spouse, is always the greatest thing to have when you have a new challenge that you're facing. Lucy: That's great. There's not many of us that have a partner that's right along in our career. Anousheh: That's true. I've been very fortunate, because sometimes it's difficult to work with your spouse. But in our case, it's a great working relationship, and we have complementary skills which makes it easy to work together. So I've been very fortunate in that regard. Lucy: So on the flip side of that, when you think about your career, what's been the toughest thing you've had to do? Anousheh: Being an entrepreneur and starting new companies require a lot of sacrifice. Sacrifice that you have to make. Because in order to be really successful, your company becomes your life. And then you have to really dedicate your time and energy fully to this endeavor that you start. And doing anything less than that means that you're doing yourself and your employees a disservice. So, it does require a lot of sacrifice of your personal time and personal hobbies and things that you enjoy. At least for the period of high growth that you experience at the beginning of a company's life cycle, you have to be ready to make a lot of time sacrifices and personal sacrifice. Lucy: I think that that is really good advice that you would give to a young person who is considering entrepreneuship: that you be prepared for those type of time sacrifices and be prepared for the amount of dedication it takes to be an entrepreneur. If you were sitting with a room of young people and giving them any further advice about entrepreneurship, what else would you tell them? Anousheh: Maybe just continue on! I don't want to make it sound like it's really bad or difficult to be an entrepreneur. It does require commitment. It is hard work, but it is also highly rewarding. So when you can look back and see yourself building a successful company. When you see your employees happy and excited about the success of the company. When you introduce something new, a product in the world that gets really high marks and everyone loves using it and raves about it. It is very rewarding, and you will feel very good about it. So my advice to everyone is find something that you love to do and you are passionate about ‑ you enjoy. Because if you're not passionate about something, it's very difficult to be dedicated to it. So find something you enjoy and love and you're passionate about. And then dedicate all you've got to make it a success. And if you have those two things, I think with your passion and dedication, there is nothing that you cannot accomplish. Lucy: So when you think about yourself and your personal characteristics, what do you think has given you the advantage to be an entrepreneur? Anousheh: I think one thing that has helped me maybe is being an immigrant and coming to the United States. I had to basically build a new life for myself, and adjust very quickly to a new environment, new culture, learn a new language. So I think a lot of the fears and risk averseness that people may have develop living in a comfortable lifestyle and having everything be provided to them as they grow up. That sort of went away from me and made me sort of a person that would be willing to take risks and face the challenges and not be afraid of failure. Because being an immigrant and staring life over, you learn to be a survivor and how to face your challenges and basically overcome them. And that has been a great skill set that I've developed and has helped me in my career. Larry: I have a lot of empathy ‑‑ Pat and I both do ‑‑ for you moving into a new country. I understand you did not know English before you moved here. Is that true? Anousheh: Yes, that's true. Larry: And we've owned businesses and lived in five different countries. And other than Australia, the other countries didn't speak English. So I really had quite a learning lesson to go through. Pat and I, we've owned our own business together for 35‑plus years. So I just want to let you know, there's hope down the road. Larry: So with that, this is my litte segue into... How do you balance your busy, busy professional life along with your personal life and your family and everything else? Anousheh: It's difficult to balance it, but you find little things that basically take the stress away and help you refocus and get energy you need to face your new challenges on a daily basis. Of course, spending time with family is always good. I love the outdoors, so if I get a chance to go out and hike or bike around, that's always great. If I don't have time to leave, just listening to some music that I love reenergizes me and gives me that break I need to go back to whatever it is I'm doing. You have to find things that are accessible and doable in your busy life and try to fit some time in your schedule to just have time to yourself and be able to recoup and refocus. Larry: It's amazing, some of the things that you pointed out remind me of Lucy's favorite way of calling it ‑‑ not balance, but integrating. Anousheh: Absolutely. You have to find ways of integrating what you like into your business life. And it's difficult at times, but I think over time with experience, you learn how to do it. Lucy: I want to maybe inject a ninth question, even though we promised we'd only have eight. I think our listeners would probably love to hear a few comments from you about your insights from your space travel, especially since it's very relevant to the topic of adventure and entrepreneurship and technology. Anousheh: Just to give you a little bit of background. Even though my career was in telecommunications, one of my greatest passions since I was a little girl was to fly to space. And when I came to the United States, there were difficulties that I was facing because I was an immigrant, didn't have citizenship. So I couldn't become an astronaut, but I never gave up on that dream. And I told myself, and I believed, that one day I would be able to fulfill that dream. And my career in electrical engineering and being an entrepreneur is what ultimately helped me realize that dream. And it was a wonderful thing to be able to realize it while I had just celebrated my 40th birthday. It was a great sense of accomplishment and an experience that has changed my life and will be with me forever. It's given me a new perspective on life. And it helps me every day. For me, one of the things I do ‑‑ when you were talking about balancing your personal life and doing things you love ‑‑ when I'm very stressed out and I can't get out and I need to do something, I just close my eyes and try to remember what it was like to be in space and to float around. And that sort of brings back all of those good sensations and good memories, and it helps me to get through the day. Lucy: Well I know, for one, I'll be watching you, probably in your next company, doing something with space. Anousheh: I hope so too, because it's one of those things that when you do it once, it's sort of like an addiction. You want to be able to fly again, and I hope that I'll get a chance to fly again to space someday. And I'll let you know. Maybe the next company. Lucy: Maybe then they could take a 53 year old woman with her. Anousheh: There's no age limit. As long as you're young at heart, you can fly to space. Lucy: That would be so cool. Well Anousheh, you've really achieved a lot in your career. What's next for you? We know space travel is next. Anything else? Anousheh: There's a lot of things happening in my life. Of course, our company is in the very early stages and growing very rapidly, so that takes up a lot of my time. But I have also a personal passion for space and making sure that the space industry ‑ or the private side of the space industry ‑ grows and provides opportunity for people like myself who love to fly to space to do it. That's why I'm involved with the X PRIZE Foundation and creating opportunities to expand the whole private sector in the space industry. Also, global education is something that is important for me. Because I believe that our future is going to be built by our young generation. And being able to give them the best opportunity to gain all the knowledge they need, and to be able to use their imagination, and be able to maintain that imaginative mind they have when they're four or five years old and carry that imagination throughout their life. And be able to use the knowledge they gain from their environment and create something better ‑ something new and a world that's really peaceful and safe. That's something that I dream of, and I'm trying to do my part in making sure that environment is available to our young generation. Larry: Anousheh, I would like to just personally thank you, and I'm sure this is from all of us. The inspiration that came along with not only you being the first female private space explorer, but the idea of what you had to all go through behind it. From not understanding English, and working in a new country, and really exploring your passions between math and IT. And it's just been a great story that we will continue to carry that flag for. You're super. Anousheh: Thank you. It was a pleasure to talk to you guys today. Larry: By the way, you listeners out there, first of all, this will be on the NCWIT.org website. That's www.ncwit.org. And of course, we'll also have it on our blog and our podcast at w3w3.com, where you can download it 24/7. And Lee and Lucy and Larry ‑ the three Ls ‑ we want to thank you so much, Anousheh, for joining us today. Anousheh: Thank you. Larry: Thank you so much. Lucy: Thank you. Bye bye. Larry: See you soon. Anousheh: Bye. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Anousheh AnsariInterview Summary: On September 18, 2006, Anousheh Ansari captured headlines around the world as the first female private space explorer. Release Date: October 12, 2007Interview Subject: Anousheh AnsariInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 19:45

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Judy Estrin President and CEO, Packet Design, LLC Date: September 13, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Judy Estrin BIO: Judy Estrin, CEO, JLABS, LLC. and author, Closing the Innovation Gap is a networking technology pioneer and Silicon Valley leader. Since 1981, she has co-founded eight technology companies and served as CTO of Cisco Systems. As CEO of JLABS, LLC, she is an advisor and speaker in the areas of entrepreneurship, leadership and innovation. In May 2000 she co-founded Packet Design, LLC, a network technology company. Prior to co-founding Packet Design, LLC, Estrin was Chief Technology Officer for Cisco Systems. Beginning in 1981 Estrin co-founded three other successful technology companies with Bill Carrico. Bridge Communications, founded in 1981, was a vendor of internetwork routers and bridges that went public in 1985 and merged with 3Com Corp. in 1987; Estrin served as Engineering Vice President and Executive Vice President of Bridge, and later ran the Bridge Communications Division at 3Com. Network Computing Devices, a maker of X terminals and PC-UNIX integration software, was founded in 1988 and went public in 1992; Estrin started with NCD as Executive Vice President and became CEO in 1993. Estrin served as CEO of Precept Software from the company's 1995 founding as a maker of streaming video software until Cisco Systems acquired Precept in 1998, and she became Cisco's Chief Technology Officer until April 2000. Estrin has been named three times to Fortune Magazine's list of the 50 most powerful women in American business. She sits on the boards of directors of The Walt Disney Company and The Federal Express Corporation as well as two private company boards -- Packet Design, Inc. and Arch Rock. She also sits on the advisory councils of Stanford's School of Engineering and Stanford's Bio-X initiative. She holds a B.S. degree in math and computer science from UCLA, and an M.S. in electrical engineering from Stanford University. Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT. Today we have another great interview with a fabulous woman entrepreneur. And with me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hello, I'm so excited to be here. Lucy: Why don't you tell us a little bit about w3w3.com, since the podcast series will be also syndicated on your site? Larry: Yes, and we've started already, and it's really popular so far. At w3w3.com, have it all set it where they can download it as a podcast, they can listen to it on their computer, and it's having great reception. Lucy: That's great! Also here is Lee Kennedy who is an NCWIT director and also, in an exciting new twist of events, is starting yet another new company called Tricallex. Welcome, Lee. Lee Kennedy: Thanks, I'm so glad to be here. Lucy: Well, and today we're interviewing somebody who is just somebody I'm thrilled to talk to because she loves data networking. Now you guys don't get on my case about this. I'm sure that she loves lots of other things, but I know she gets network congestion, and TCIP, and all those great packet protocols. Judy Estrin, welcome. Judy Estrin: It's nice to be here. Lucy: Judy is the co‑founder and chairman of Packets Design. And she sits on the board of the Walt Disney Company and also Federal Express. So, Judy, you know you certainly have done a lot in the area of networking, and not just networking but route analytics and all the different algorithms. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Packet Design first, and then we'll get into the interview? Judy: OK, Packet Design has actually evolved over the last five years. It started out in 2000 as a company that we started to target what we called medium term innovation. So we didn't want to just focus on one product area. We started a number of projects, and the idea was to either license technology or spin out companies. Now, we all know what happened in 2001 and 2002 in the networking market; actually and in the technology market, in general. So it was an interesting time to start a company like that. But we did spinout three companies: Verneer Network, Packet Design, Inc., and Precision IO. A couple of years ago, we changed the business model and stopped doing new projects and just focused our time on the spinouts that existed. So Packet Design, itself, is really somewhat of a shell company at this point. Packet Design, Inc., which I'm chairman of the board of (but not CEO), is in the route analytics business. Verneer is in the network security business. And Precision IO, unfortunately, ended up getting shut down because of, I would say, running out of patience in the eccentric community. Lucy: When you mention route analytics, tell us a little bit about what that entails. Judy: The products that Packet Design, Inc., which is really the spin off that most of the people from Packet Design, LLC went to, the products they provide, probably the easiest way to describe it, is allow you to get more information about an IP network, so that you can manage, diagnose, and plan more effectively. And it gives you information about the routing itself, which is why it is called route analytics, as well as the products that give you information about the traffic that goes on the network and correlates that traffic with the routing. And previously there'd not been products that understood the routing the way this product did. Lucy: Well, and that maybe gets us to our first question around technology because, certainly, I know enough about networking protocols to know that route analytics is an extremely difficult technology. How did you first get into technology? And as you look out into the future, what technologies do you think are going to be especially important? Judy: So, this is kind of a funny answer to have to how did I first get into technology, I would say I was born into it. And today it's common to have second‑generation computer scientists. But when I was growing up, it was not so common. But my father worked with Flid Noiman at the Institute for Advanced Studies, and they started the Computer Science Department at UCLA. My mother is also a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, and was one of the very early biomedical engineers. So I grew up in an environment filled with science and technology. I had a very strong aptitude toward math. And I used to joke that if computers hadn't been invented, I might have ended up being a statistician. So I'm very lucky that computers were invented. When I think of myself and what I really like to do, it's solving problems. And if you think of about technology and computer science, specifically, it really is about solving problems. And I, very early in my career, moved from being a dedicated engineer into management. And I was, in essence, an individual contributor for probably a couple of years before I started managing. And what I found is the same problem solving techniques that I learned in computer science worked very well in the world of solving overall problems, whether it was organizational or people or technological. So I was exposed to technology very early, and I loved it. When you ask me what technologies I think are cool today, as I look forward, some of the most interesting technologies I think are the ones that are, what I would call, interdisciplinary, essentially applying information technology to different things. So whether it's to the consumer market, when you look at entertainment or social networking or any of the other problems that technology is solving in that arena. The increase of mobility, so looking at the problems of trying to take everything we've done that runs so well on personal computers and make that information available on mobile devices. One of the areas that I'm very interested in, my sister happens to run this center at UCLA in this area, and I'm on a board of a startup, is something called sensor‑nets, which is the area of bringing the physical world, or being able to monitor the physical world, and bring information about the physical world into your information systems. Because you now can combine processors, sensors, and wireless together in a very small device that can be sprinkled around, and allow you to get information about the physical world that might be used for environmental needs, or energy, in data centers, in monitoring the elderly at home. There's a whole range of applications. So I think that is another interesting application. I think the application of information technology to healthcare and education will be very important areas, because both of those are areas we have big problems in. And I believe technology can really help solve them. And then last, it's a broad area, but anything having to do with what people call clean techs. So the whole area of energy efficiency as well as new forms of energy I think are going to be very interesting. And technology, information technology will play a role in solving those problems. Lee: Well, the area of sensors is also particularly interesting to me and us at NCWIT. Just a plug for a future NCWIT summit we're going to have at the University of Illinois, Urbana Champagne will be exactly, Judy, what you were just talking about. And we're talking about the future of computing and how it's driven from multiple disciplines. Judy: Great. Lucy: And Judy you may have already answered our next question when you talked about your love to solve problems. But the question is: why are you an entrepreneur? And what is it about it that makes you tick? Judy: You know it's interesting, a lot of entrepreneurs will tell you stories about how when they were kids they had a lemonade stand or they started a business, and I don't have any stories like that. When I was growing up, I don't think I ever imagined that I would become an entrepreneur. But when I graduated with my master's from Stanford, I had offers from a number of different technology companies. I was interviewing at Intel, at HP, Xerox, the classic large companies. But I also interviewed at a very small company with 50 people called XLog, which was a spinout of Intel. And I decided to go there, because a friend of my parents told me that the smartest people that he knew worked at that company. So I started off my career at a small company. And just became very passionate about what you could do in small groups. And how quickly we were able to move. And how innovative the environment was. And I realized, also, how much I enjoyed building my own culture, developing groups, developing an organization. So out of that XLog experience, I think, was probably what made me start to think that, you know, maybe I'd like to start something on my own. And the other thing is, because I went to a small company, I was able to move into management much more quickly than I think if I'd gone to a larger, more hierarchical company. And I found I loved managing and so the non‑technical side. I always stayed deep in the technology. But the business side of entrepreneurship, I've found that I really enjoyed. One benefit of being an entrepreneur: when you're building a company, you get a choice to stay involved in the technology and do the higher level executive functions. And you have a very broad scope. And I found that that was something that interested me. When you end up at a large company, you end up having to make a decision of either being at the top, and being very far away from the technology, or staying technical, and not being able to necessarily exercise the management side as much. So I think what about entrepreneurship makes me tick. It's a passion for an idea. Every company we started was because we were passionate about an idea and about solving a problem in the marketplace. Most of the companies were pretty ahead of their time. So we tended to look forward a lot in what we were doing. And I keep saying we. The companies that I was involved in, I co‑founded with my ex‑husband Bill Carrico. So that's the "we" that I'm saying there. Larry: Judy, you know I thought it's interesting that it was obvious since the very beginning of time for you, IT was going to be part of your life. But it wasn't until after you got your master's degree that you really started thinking about the possibility of being an entrepreneur. And by the way, this is Lucy's favorite question, having to do with: Who were the people in your life that shepherded you through this career path? And who were your mentors? Judy: Early on, as I was growing up, my parents were really my role models. And that is what led me toward science and to become a computer scientist. But both of them are academics. And so I was not at all exposed early on to the business world. And it really was at XLog that I first became exposed to the business world. And I would say my first mentor was Bill, my ex‑husband, because he came to XLog and was the one who promoted me into a management position. So I would say, if I had to pick an early mentor, it was Bill. But the reason I don't like the question is: I think as I have gone through my career, there are so many people that have influenced me. I watched everybody, whether it's people who have worked for me who have taught me things. I have people I have worked for. I sit on the boards of directors of some incredible companies with just terrific leaders. And watching them and how they lead influenced me. Watching people who I don't like the way they lead at times influences me, saying I don't want to be like that. So I would say that I really can't identify a small set, or a set of role models. I think I've pretty much built my career and have always taken a strategy of just learning from everyone around me. Again, from those people who have worked for me and those people I have worked for. Larry: I think you answered that question quite well. Lucy: Right. Judy: You know, I'm asked these days... People often ask will I mentor, get together and ask for help. And one of the things I like to tell people is that when you're looking around, and when you're looking to someone who has experience, and hearing about hearing about their experiences, don't listen to what they say and just say, "OK, I have to do it that way." What you need to do is listen to other people's experiences and then filter. And decide which of those things feel right for you. Because in the end, and I think this is probably the most important thing about mentoring and role models, one is most successful when you're being yourself and developing your own capabilities. That doesn't mean you don't learn along the way. But when you try to act like somebody else, and if it's not natural to your own personality and skills, it always backfires. Lucy: Well, and I think that's really well said as well. We certainly do learn from everybody around us. And I think you had a brilliant answer for that. The next question we have for you is maybe on the other end of your experiences, in terms of the tough times in your career and the challenges you've had. What was the toughest thing that you've had to face in your career so far? Judy: I'm going to say two things. They were kind of tied together. The Packet Design Model involved spinning out these companies, and then hiring executives to run them and getting back your investment for them. And it involved then me learning how to let go. Because if you spinout a company, the company has to become independent. The CEO of that company has to run the company. You can't have two CEOs. So one of the very interesting things for me was one: I learned how hard it is to find good executives, to find good leadership and that process of learning how to let go, which I think I have developed as a board member and is one of the things that makes me more effective as a board member today, is that I have learned when to suggest, when it's my business to poke in, and when not. And how to question in a way that helps the CEO think, and helps hold them accountable without meddling in their business or trying to do their job. So that's number one. But I would say, by far, the hardest thing that I had to do was being involved in the shutting down of Precision IO. It was the first time that one of the companies that I helped start had to outright fail. And we couldn't navigate an exit strategy for it. Every other time when there was something that didn't go exactly the way we wanted, we were able to navigate an exit. And whether it is acquisition or partnership or changing strategy, here, because of the timing, because of execution, leadership, the venture dynamic, we ended up just shutting it down. And having to let people go that I've been involved in hiring was just very tough for me. Lucy: It really is tough, I think, for anybody. And it's tough for the people on the receiving end. It's interesting how a lot of times; those are the changes in people's lives where they go off to do wonderful, exciting things. Judy: Right. And I'm happy to say that the core team that got let go, those that I have continued to touch base with, are all in great places. They were all terrific people and very employable. But it doesn't make it any easier to make that decision. Lucy: So, Judy, one of the reasons we are doing these interviews with women like you is we're hoping that a number of young people will listen to these, and learn, and get inspired to go off and, potentially, be entrepreneurs in their career. So if you were sitting there, what would be some of the best advice you would give them? Judy: Well, I guess a couple of things. One is: do it for passion, not for money. So it's wonderful to make money if you're successful. But if you're doing it for the money, and the money is what you're doing it for first, I guarantee you won't come up with as good an idea or be as successful. So every entrepreneur I've seen that is doing whatever they're doing (a new product, a new service), because they are passionate about solving a problem with a new type of technology, those are the ones that are most successful. I'm not going to say that having a company go public, or get bought, and making money from it is not great. And that has to also be a motivator, because the venture guys want you to want to make money, because they want to make money. But the passion has to be there. And that should be the number one. So I guess that's one piece. The second is: you have to be ready to fail. You have to be ready to fail, pick yourself up, and try again. I think that sometimes we get confused because it was such a long time of growth and opportunity in the IT business, that so many companies were so successful, that people forget how hard it is to really build a successful company. And more companies fail than succeed. And so you really have to be ready to fail. And everybody says it, but you have to be ready to do it and pick yourself up and try again. The third thing is: that when I think about what it takes to be an entrepreneur, I already talked about the passion. It takes flexibility and persistence. You really have to be willing to keep going and plow through obstacles. But you also have to have a sense of judgment and flexibility to know when that obstacle... Sometimes you need to push through the obstacle. Sometimes that obstacle is telling you something. And what it's telling you is: you need to be flexible enough to change your strategy a little bit. And so this balance between persistence that just has you pushing forward, ignoring the naysayers and just knowing that your vision is right, but the flexibility and the open mindedness, to be able to say to yourself, "You know what? Maybe it's not 100 percent right. And maybe I just learned something new that I have to change slightly or change dramatically." So that balance between persistence and flexibility. And then last, there are lots of people out of school that want to go right from school to being the CEO of a company. My advice is get experience first because it will make you a better entrepreneur. Again, I think everybody thinks it's easier to build a company that it really is. Now that experience might be at another entrepreneurial company where you go work somewhere and watch someone else do it. It doesn't have to be 10 years of experience but getting some experience first I think will make you a much better entrepreneur. I think the trend of get your degree and start a company is actually not a good one. Some people can do it but I think it's better to be able to watch others a little bit first. Lucy: I can really echo this notion of passion. Last night I listened to the three‑minute pitches of 10 young entrepreneurial teams here in Boulder. I got to be the judge. The ones that really were in love with their idea and passionate about it ‑ and you could really see that there was a subset that was and then a subset if I would have said, "Why don't you make black white?" they would have said OK. [laughs] Larry: Hmm. Lucy: So it was just kind of an interesting experience. You have given us a lot of, I think, great characteristics of entrepreneurs. I know that they are your personal characteristics as well in terms of flexibility and persistence and having good judgment. Do you have any other personal characteristics that you haven't shared with us so far that you think have given you an advantage as an entrepreneur? Judy: I work very hard. [laughs] So that's part of that persistence. I'm really willing to roll up my sleeves and work very hard. We have talked about passion. Communication skills ‑ I think that one thing that I have always been able to do is communicate my passion and my vision to a broad range of people, so whether it is to the customer, to the marketplace, to employees. It's not enough just to have the passion and vision. You have to be able to communicate it and get other people excited about it also, for instance, raising money. So, I think my communication skills probably have helped me. The other is that I tend to be very forward‑looking. I am always willing to question. I'm very open‑minded. So in terms of when you try to think about, "Well, how did you decide to start a company in this area?" that whole notion of being able to look at what is available and what isn't and how can you take technologies that exist and maybe do something different with them. So the whole arena of being able to question what is out there, question myself, be honest, and do kind of a self‑assessment about where I or the company is at any certain time, I think has helped. There are some entrepreneurs that go in one direction until they hit a wall. The ability to self assess and question oneself and what you're doing without becoming wishy‑washy, but just a healthy amount of it, I think is important. Then last I would say leadership. I love building teams of people and leading teams of people. I think the teams of people that have worked for me appreciate the relationship and the environment or the culture that we created. So I would say leadership is probably the last. Lucy: That's great. I sense you have learned a ton through all the startups you have built. Judy: I have. I would say leadership style is really what I am talking about. Lucy: So, one of the things about which we are always curious is, being an entrepreneur, especially with the phenomenally successful companies you have built or as an executive at Cisco, how have you brought balance into your personal and professional life. Judy: I would say that until I had my son, which was in 1990, in our second company, I didn't. All I did was work. I had no balance in my personal/professional life. The only reason it worked is Bill and I cofounded the companies together. So our personal and professional lives just melded into one. We didn't do anything except work. Having a child forced me to have balance because my son became my number one priority. It doesn't mean the companies weren't important. But there was no question in my mind about what my number one priority was. Then I had to begin to juggle. I think that what I always tell people is that you can do it but the first thing you have to realize this is really hard to acknowledge to yourself because you can't do everything. So you have to prioritize and figure out what you are not going to do. You know, I couldn't be at every event at his school. I could pick the ones I wanted to be at. I had to make trade‑offs and establish routines where I would leave work at 5:30 in order to be able to spend time with my son. But then I, at 8:30 or 9:00 would go back to email and work some more. So an analogy I like to give people is when you're juggling, good jugglers know how many balls they can juggle. They don't ever pick up any more than that. I think the mistake people make is at each stage of your life, if you have children at each stage of their lives, the number of balls you can juggle changes because the balls change in size. The different phases of the company take different amounts of attention. So in six month increments in my life, I have always said, "OK. How many balls can I be juggling?" because if you pick up one more than you know how to juggle, they all fall down. So you're much better off putting one down so that you can continue to juggle than having the whole thing fall apart. The other thing is learning to ask for help. That was very hard for me to learn how to do. Whether it's getting help in your personal life or getting help at work and delegating and getting other people to do things that maybe inside you know or think you could do better, usually it's just that you think you could do better and other people can do them just as well and you need to learn how to do it. Now that I am older and I'm in a different phase of my life, I try to more consciously balance personal and professional. I think for 25 years when I was running companies it was coping. Now I'm spending more time consciously saying I need to make sure that I pay attention to myself as well as others. Lucy: So, I think juggling is a wonderful way to describe it. It's a wonderful analogy. We have talked with a number of people who have also talked about integration and we have had other words. I think juggling is terrific. So you have really achieved a lot. There is a lot about your career at that we haven't even touched on in this interview. But we always like to ask our interviewees what's next for them. What is next for Judy Estrin? Judy: It's been an interesting couple of years in terms of changes in my life. For the first time I'm not running a company. A couple of years ago, I picked up my head and said, "What's next?" and decided that I wanted what's next to be something very different, that I do not want to start another company at this point in time. I do have my Board seats, which I spend a lot of time on and love. But I decided to write a book. I started about a year and a half ago and hope to have it in bookstores in the August timeframe, August '08. That is a very, very different type of endeavor than running a company. But the reason I did it was the same reason. It was passion for a topic. The book has to do with innovation. But it has not specifically targeted it as 'here is how to make your business more innovative', which is what most of the innovation books are about. It more looks at how you create cultures of innovation for science and technology and where we are as a country and the fact that we have lost some of the elements that made us so successful have eroded. So it's really a little bit of a broader perspective on not just businesses but the country and what we need to do to cultivate sustainable innovation looking forward. Lucy: Well, I've had the pleasure of seeing some of your early remarks that you gave a group a couple of months ago. I'm very much looking forward to the book because you have had very thoughtful ideas. So hurry up and finish it. Judy: I'm working as fast as I can. Larry: All right. Lucy: Really, thanks a lot, Judy for your time. I know you're really busy and we really appreciate you taking time out to talk to us. Larry: I want to thank you so much. You echoed one of my feelings that over the years we have learned more from our mistakes and failings than we have from our successes. Judy: No question. One of the big things in my book is that you need to failure as a step to success and not an end in itself. So if you're not willing to fail then you never try anything. Larry: That's right. Judy, I want to thank you for joining us today. By the way, you listeners out there, would you please pass this interview along to people that you know, that would be interested and maybe even should be interested. It's an excellent story. Just go to www.ncwit.org and that's where you can see all of the different interviews along with w3w3.com. Thank you much. Lucy: Thanks Judy. Judy: Bye‑bye. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Judy EstrinInterview Summary: For Judy Estrin, an interest in science and technology is in the blood: her older sister is an MD; her younger sister is a professor of computer science; and her parents both have PhDs in electrical engineering. Release Date: September 13, 2007Interview Subject: Judy EstrinInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 27:36

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Heidi Roizen Managing Director, Mobius Venture Capital Date: August 15, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Heidi Roizen BIO: Heidi Roizen has spent her entire life in the entrepreneurial ecosystem of Silicon Valley, first as an entrepreneur and ultimately as a venture capitalist helping other entrepreneurs build the great companies of tomorrow. She is currently a Managing Director of Mobius Venture Capital, a venture fund with over $2 billion under management. In that capacity, Heidi serves on the Boards of Directors of Reactrix, Ecast, Perpetual Entertainment and AuctionDrop. Heidi began her career in 1983 by co-founding T/Maker Company, a software publisher and developer for early personal computers including the IBM PC and the original Macintosh. As CEO, Heidi led the company for over a decade, raised two rounds of venture capital and ultimately consummated a successful acquisition of T/Maker by Deluxe Corporation. In 1996, she joined Apple Computer as VP of Worldwide Developer Relations. After one year at Apple, Heidi decided to return to her entrepreneurial roots, this time as a Mentor Capitalist and ultimately a Venture Capitalist. Heidi has also been actively involved in the trade associations critical to the Valley. She is a past president of the Software Publishers Association and served on its board from 1987 to 1994. She also represented the venture industry as a member of the Board of Directors of the National Venture Capital Association from 2003 to 2007. She also served on the board of Great Plains Software from 1997 until its acquisition by Microsoft in 2001, and is a past Public Governor of the Pacific Exchange. She is also a frequent guest lecturer at Stanford as well as a speaker at conferences for technologists, entrepreneurs, or women executives. Heidi holds a BA and an MBA from Stanford University. She is married to orthopedic surgeon David Mohler and has two daughters. Lee Kennedy: Hi. This is Lee Kennedy, board member of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT. And this is part of a series of interviews that we're having with fabulous entrepreneurs, women who have started IT companies in a variety of sectors, all of whom had insightful stories to tell us about being entrepreneurs. With me, I have Larry Nelson, from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. How are you doing? Larry Nelson: Oh, great. It's wonderful to be here again. And one of the things that is so exciting for us at w3w3.com is that we are helping support, I think, the most fabulous program that we've experienced since we got in the radio business in '98, and the idea that we're helping inspire young women, girls, getting into IT, looking into that, as well as being an entrepreneur. But now, we're also getting phone calls from business leaders, people in schools, who say, "This is such a great program. We'd like to help promote it, too." Lee: Well, that's wonderful. Larry: One of the interesting things that we have here that's a little bit of a twist is that we're interviewing an entrepreneur who became a venture capitalist, and also, of course, then, therefore works and helps support entrepreneurs. And we're very pleased that we're interviewing Heidi Roizen, who is a managing director of Mobius Venture Capital. And we've got a little bit of a twist here. Lee and I are here in Colorado, and Lucy Sanders, the CEO and founder of NCWIT, is in California, at Heidi's home base. So, Lucy, let's get started. Lucy Sanders: All right. Hi, everyone. I'm sitting here with Heidi in her beautiful home in Atherton. I've been here a few times, and I just think it's so much fun to be here and interview you here in your office. Heidi Roizen: Well, thank you. I hope the dogs don't participate. Lucy: Or they might. They might have something profound to say. Heidi: They often do. Lucy: One of the things that makes it so exciting to interview you is that when I think, about Silicon Valley, I think, about you. And I think that you're synonymous with Silicon Valley. You've done a lot, as Larry mentioned. You've started companies. You're in venture capital. You were educated here at Stanford. You're a part of the community... Heidi: I was actually born at the Stanford Hospital, which I think, I'm probably the only one in Silicon Valley... Lucy: And why don't you spend a minute or two bringing us up to speed about what you've been doing lately? Heidi: Well, I am currently serving on four boards. They keep me very busy. They are all companies that are definitely not in their "two guys and a dog and a laptop" stage any longer, but they're all still companies that aren't through to the end of the road yet. So, lots of interesting challenges in terms of recruiting, customer acquisition, strategic business development, and all the normal things one goes through in startup land. So, I'm working on those companies, and then I'm working on a few entrepreneurial ventures on the side, helping out some friends. I always love having my fingers in the very, very early stages, and so I like having a few of those to work on as well. Lucy: Well, and I happen to know you're very generous with your time for nonprofits and for Stanford students. Heidi: Yeah. Lucy: The last time I was here, we had a great dinner, where you brought them back to your home. And I think, you're going to have some great advice for us, so why don't we just get right to the interview? Heidi: OK. Lee: Well, Heidi, I'll jump in and ask our first question, and that's: how did you first get into technology? Was it when you were a child or in college? And then, what technologies do you think are really cool today? Heidi: OK. Well, the first question is one that I think, if you're born and raised in Silicon Valley, at this time ‑ born in 1958, graduated from Stanford, undergrad in 1980 ‑ you couldn't help but apply for a job and end up at a tech company. So, even though I was not a technologist ‑ in fact, my undergraduate degree is in creative writing ‑ I ended up as the editor of the company newsletter for a little startup called Tandem Computers. Lee: Wow. Heidi: And that's really where I got my first inkling that there was something really exciting about the computer industry. What I realized, at that time, was I kind of looked around, and everybody getting ahead either had an engineering degree or an MBA. And it was a little late for me to go get an engineering degree, I thought, but I figured the MBA thing looked like a pretty good idea. So, I went back to Stanford and got that, and really fell in love with personal computing at the time. It's hard for people... I mean, I sound like such an old geezer when I say this. But, I was the class of 1983, and there were only three people ‑ I was one of them ‑ who owned their own personal computer at school. And now, can you imagine being a graduate student and not having a personal computer? You'd be hopeless. So, started my company right out of school and just never looked back. I had the good fortune to have a brilliant programmer as a brother, who really didn't like the business side, and I loved the business side. And the thing I like to tell people, often, who are non‑technologists, who wonder about being in the technology field, I tell them, "You know, need a mix of people." I don't have to know how to build a car to drive one. And in fact, I'd say, particularly in my early times working with my brother, who was the genius programmer, sometimes he'd build features that were so genius that only he could use them, and they weren't very practical. So, I think, sometimes it's good to be the petunia in the onion patch, as I used to call it in the development hall. Lucy: Tell us a little bit about the technology that you're thinking about as being the next wave of technical, cool gadgets. Heidi: I think, gadgets is always a slippery slope, because there are gadgets that I just love. I mean, we're investors in Sidekick and Sling, so we definitely have some gadgets companies out there. If any of you have seen a Reatrix system in the malls and in the theaters, and the Reactive television systems, or an Ecast jukebox ‑ we've got tons of portfolio companies I can tell you about that all have exciting gadgets and technologies. To me, where I'm focused right now is I've been thinking a lot about the demographic that is me ‑ the woman who still wants to look good and feel good, who has more free time, who has more money, who, however, still has family obligations, has a career. We're hitting 50, and when our parents hit 50, we thought they were pretty much close to death... Heidi: Now, we are shocked to find that we are 50. And I think, what's interesting is that the Silicon Valley ‑ and it's a little bit like Hollywood ‑ get so focused on youth and the youth culture and the spending money that youths have and advertising to youths. And while I've got nothing against young people, I think that the people my age and women my age have been an underserved demographic, when it comes to utilizing the web as a medium for exchange, as a community, as an outlet for all sorts of things and a place to go learn about things. And I'm seeing more and more activities around that, and I can't tell you how many times... this is probably hitting all of my same‑age brethren entrepreneurs, but we're all sort of getting up and saying, "I don't really want to start the next teen cell phone. I really want to start something that my friends and I could use." And so I'm seeing a lot of really interesting companies come about, a lot that combine community with some of the really innovative things that can be done online. Lucy: Give it some time. Heidi: Yeah. Lucy: Give it some time. Larry: Yeah, you bet. I'm not that old yet. But, anyhow... Lee: That's right, Larry. Larry: They're laughing... Heidi: Somebody once asked me to predict the future of venture investing, and I said, "Just about the time we finally invest in the ultimate weight‑loss pill and the instant‑tan pill, culture will change so that it's not cool to be thin and it's not cool to be tan, and we'll lose again." Larry: Oh, boy. My personal friend, Mark Twain, said, "Youth is wasted on the young." Heidi: That's right. Larry: Anyhow. I can't help but ask this, Heidi. Many people don't look at venture capitalists as entrepreneurs, but anybody who is a managing director, believe me, they are entrepreneur. But, of course, Heidi has the background and experience of being an entrepreneur. She's now continuing to support and work with entrepreneurs. What is it about you that makes this all happen? And what makes it tick, in terms of an entrepreneur? Heidi: Well, there are so many answers. And I've had the pleasure to listen to many of your wonderful speakers on this series before myself, and I think, a lot of things have been mentioned about tenacity and creativity and mission and a passion about what you're doing. There are so many things that I can think of. And of course, if you look me up on LinkedIn, I refer to myself as a "recovering entrepreneur," which is a little bit of an inside joke at Mobius. We're recovering entrepreneurs. Heidi: I think, what I had to learn, going from being an entrepreneur to being a venture capitalist, is it's like being the quarterback and then being the coach. When you're a venture capitalist, you do work behind the scene, you do help a lot. But, they're sort of not your losses, and they're not your victories. And if you're doing your job right, the entrepreneur is on the cover of "Time" magazine, not you. When you're an entrepreneur, the buck stops here. It's funny. I just went on a walk with a fellow entrepreneur of mine, and he was talking about a friend who used to be a vice president of a big company and is now the CEO of a small company, and one of the things he was saying to her is, "Now you understand how the buck really stops here." Heidi: And I think, for me, what really defines an entrepreneur is something that somebody said to me once. When I was running T/Maker, we had this product line called ClickArt, which is still around today, and it's basically electronic clip art. But, you have to remember, when we did that product in 1984, there were no scanners; there was no PostScript; there was no anything. We were literally sitting artists down, at 128K max. We didn't even have a stylus. They were drawing with the mouse in 72 DPI to create electronic clip art. I mean, that's as basic as it was. And when we shipped that product, I remember staying at a trade show, and I can't remember how many people came up to me and said, "Wow! You know, I thought of that, too." Right? And in the back of my mind, I thought, "Yeah, you thought of it. But, we did it." Heidi: And I think, for most of these things, it's that "one percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration." There are so many ideas that just die on the vine because a person doesn't go out and try to actually do them. They think they're a cool idea, but other things get in the way and they don't really work hard at it. And not only do they not work hard at the creative process, but the process I'll loosely call is the destructive process. With entrepreneurs, one of the things I respect the most is, when you come up with an idea, that instead of working on it for the first five days about how you're going to accomplish it, you spend five days trying to prove that it's already been done or it's not doable ‑ not because you're being pessimistic, but before you engage in the creative process, sometimes you have to go and say, "What else is already out there?" And one of my pet peeves as a venture capitalist is when somebody comes and pitches me an idea, and I say, "Have you ever heard about blahblah.com?" And they go, "What's that?" And I get on and I show them, and it's the exact company they were talking about building, but it already exists. My feeling is, today, particularly with Google and other search engines and the Internet, you can find a lot of this stuff out there, and you need to go out and look. But, I do think, ultimately, a long and winding answer, but the short answer is it's like Nike, man. It's "just do it." If you just do it, that's the only way to be an entrepreneur. If you're not willing to just do it, you're never going to be an entrepreneur. Lee: That is such great advice, Heidi, because so many people, even when they just go out and do it, it's not that first idea that they even end up doing sometimes. It's just having the guts to get out there and start the business and get in that industry and figure out what it is. Heidi: That's right. And ask a lot of questions and meet a lot of people and kiss a lot of frogs. Larry: Yeah. Heidi: It's always easy, in retrospect, to say, "Why did I take that meeting with that person?" But you don't know because, just as likely, you could take a meeting with another person. And I just had something happen this weekend, where I was helping someone on a music project. And we were talking to someone who was totally unrelated, and they just said, "Oh, what are you up to?" Totally unrelated to the music industry. And we told him what we were doing, and he said, "Hey, I'm good friends with..." And I won't name the names because it's all proprietary, but let's just say one of the most Grammy‑winning artists in the world. And he said, "I'll give him a call tomorrow and see if he's interested in helping you with this." So, it's like one of those random, like that's not what we were even there to talk about. But, that's how the conversation ended up going, and it could take us in a really exciting direction. You just never know when that kind of serendipitous stuff is going to occur. Lucy: Your remark about 1984, when you were doing T/Maker and you had to have the ClickArt, I just have to go back to that for a moment and say, in 1984, we were trying to draw things in P‑Roth inside... Lucy: That's not revolutionary. Heidi: Yeah, yeah. I remember the first time I showed my husband QuickTime, whenever it came out ‑ 1989, whatever. And I'd bring home my file, because we were under nondisclosure with Apple. And I'd show him this postage‑sized, grainy thing, and he goes, "Wow. I am really underwhelmed." Heidi: For me, as a computer geek, it was so exciting to see television on a computer. And for him, he was like, "Uh, honey? Have you looked at our TV set? It's like a lot better than this." Lucy: Because I know you, I think that one of the things that makes you a great entrepreneur is, in fact, you see potential, and you're willing to take the risk to develop the potential. Heidi: Yeah. It does make one quite dangerous. It's that joke about the person who buys houses because they see the good in every house. And I tend to be a person who sees the upside in things. Which I think, again, in order to be an entrepreneur, you have to be an optimist. You have to believe things are going to work out your way. But, you have to be realistic. And that's where I, again, for lack of a better word, call it the destructive process ‑ testing your idea, going out and thinking about the boundary cases: "What's the worse that could happen here? What's the worse that could happen here? How am I going to prepare for it?" And also going out and really combing the markets to make sure that what you're doing is unique, or, if not unique, that you're going to be the best somehow. Lucy: Well, along the way ‑ you've been here in Silicon Valley. You were born here. Heidi: Yeah. Lucy: And you've got a great network. And we are really curious to also understand who helped you the most. Who would you look to as being your mentor? Heidi: I was very fortunate to be born into a family where entrepreneurship was not a bad thing. I think, it's one of the things that makes California such a great place and will play a continuing role in the world economy is because we are just a culture, for 150‑plus years, of people striking out and doing something on their own, and failure not meaning social failure. You can be a business failure and still hold your head up and go to your kids' school and not be embarrassed about it. Lucy: "I failed today." Heidi: "I failed today." It's part of the process. I think that, for me, my father was a great role model for me because he was an entrepreneur. He was always thinking. He would say things to me like, "Today is the best day of my life because I have every day before today that I can draw on what I learned to apply to today." So, he was just that kind of person. And he wasn't like Mr. Rogers. I mean, he was just a great role model about how one could look for the opportunity in everything. And he was a very poor immigrant. I think, he graduated from high school. I'm not really sure. His dad died when he was 12, and he had to make money for the family to make ends meet. I mean, he had one of those really hard upbringings that made him very grateful and thankful, and very creative and resourceful. And he treated me like one of the boys. He never said to me, "Oh, you're a girl. You shouldn't do this," or "You can't go to graduate school," or "You can't do anything." In fact, if I said I couldn't do something because of being a woman, he would scoff at me. And my brothers joke that I'm the most like him... Heidi: So, he actually made me in his image, not my brothers. But, I was very lucky about that. I was very lucky, also, just to be in the computer industry in the late '70s and early '80s, because I really did get to grow up with the people who are the leaders in the industry. And so somebody said to me, "Wow! How did you get to be friends with Bill Gates?" And it's like, "Well, started 25 years ago." [laughs] Heidi: He was easier to get to then. But, it's things like that, that I think, I just had the great fortune to have a front‑row seat and be a participant in an industry that I really believe has changed the world. So, it gave me a lot of opportunities to learn from other people and have mentors and role models. Lee: So, Heidi, when you think about all you've done in your career ‑ building your own companies, being an investor ‑ what has been the toughest thing you've had to do in your career? Heidi: You know, you face so many tough challenges when you are the CEO and "the buck stops here." Someone once said to me, "Gosh, you're so lucky. You're the CEO. You have so much freedom." And I laughed, and I said, "You don't understand that when you're the CEO, you have the least freedom, because you can't just quit." I raised that money. I hired every one of these people. I gave those venture capitalists my commitment that I was going to bring it home for them. I'm not just going to walk out the door. I remember walking into my company every day. We had about 100 employees. And I would count the cars in the parking lot, and I would think about the car payments and the mortgage payments... Heidi: Everything that was dependent on this company. And so I would say, still, to this day, that the hardest thing you have to do is lay people off. I mean, the hardest thing you have to do is downsize your firm. It's not as hard to fire someone. This is an interesting thing. I would much rather terminate somebody for cause than lay people off because we can't afford it. When you terminate someone for cause ‑ and "for cause" is a real legal term. I don't want to use the legal definition of that. But, what I really mean is, when somebody's not a good fit for the job they're in, I find that it's really in their best interest to tell them and get them to move on to something else. And while that is sometimes hard, I think, it's the right thing to do, and I think, it's the right thing to do for the person. And I've often found that you check in with them a couple years later, they're better off where they are, even though this can be very difficult. I do think, going through the dot‑com bust and having to lay people off, knowing that there wasn't going to be another job they could just waltz into, was a really, really hard thing to do. To me, those were the hardest things I ever had to do. In fact, my T/Maker employees still joke about this time where we had our first loss ever and we had to lay off some people, and it was Christmas. I was about four‑months pregnant. I said to my husband, "I've got to do it myself. I hired all these people. I'm going to do it myself. I'm going to give each one of them the news." So I'm in my office, and they're coming in, or I'm going to their offices. And I'm pregnant, and so the hormones coursing through my veins. So, I am sobbing through these terminations, and they are comforting me. Heidi: They feel sorry for me. But, I have to lay them off. Sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. And I say to my husband, "This is the worst business day of my life, where I'm terminating some people who've been with me five, six years, and I just feel terrible. And it's Christmas, and I had to tell them, 'No bonuses for you guys, and you're getting laid off.'" I said, "Please go to Blockbuster and rent a funny movie so that when I get home, I can take my mind off of it." So, I come home, and what had he rented, but Chevy Chase's "Christmas Vacation." Heidi: And I don't know if you guys have seen this, but of course, the whole story is about a guy who believes he's getting a Christmas bonus and builds a swimming pool or something, and then he doesn't get the bonus, and he ends up kidnapping his boss. Heidi: It was just one of those moments: I just didn't know whether to laugh. I'll never forget that moment. I still cry when I see that show. It was on TV last Christmas, and I'm like crying through it. My kids are looking at me. They're like, "Mom, it's a comedy." Not for me. Lucy: Not for me. In fact, my answer to this question is the same. I think that laying people off is clearly one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do. Heidi: Absolutely. Lucy: We've heard a lot of great advice so far in this interview from you about entrepreneurship, and the Nike "just do it," and who cares if you've thought about it? Just get it done. Heidi: Yeah. Lucy: And other types of advice around doing your homework and seeing the potential. If you were sitting right here with a young person and you were giving them advice about entrepreneurship, what else would you tell them? And one of the things that comes to mind is a conversation we had sometime about networking. Heidi: Yeah. Lucy: And I thought you had some of the best advice about networking that I've ever heard. Heidi: Well, I have a ton of advice about networking. I'm a little typecast as a networking speaker because Harvard did a case on me a number of years ago that really is about my philosophy of networking. And when they approached me to do the case, I said, "Why would anyone want a case on this? It's all just common sense." It's kind of like that book: "Everything I needed to know about networking, I learned in the second grade." But, it's just commonsense and practical and courtesy. And so, they did do this case, and I do speak on the case a lot. And my fundamental belief is that it's very rare that anything happens as a singular effort. Yeah, you can go climb ‑ well, even climbing Mount Everest, it's a team, right? And entrepreneurship is a team sport with very many lonely moments. So, you have to be the one. I'm working on this project with someone. I got up at four o'clock in the morning a couple of days ago because I thought of something, and I knew if I waited till morning, it wasn't going to be the same. So, I had to get up and come down here and sit at the computer for an hour and write up my thoughts while they were fresh. I think, there are a lot of times when you're just singularly approaching something, but I think, you have to know how to ask for help, and how to give help. Students say this to me all the time, they say, "Well, I don't have anything to give." You always have something to give, everyone has something to give. Good lord, you can come and talk to me and baby‑sit my children while you're talking me. I had one guy who traded me, I would talk to him about his business and he was a personal trainer, so he would train me while I was talking to him about his business. Heidi: And I think that one of the errors that people make in networking is they try to hard to gather business cards, and they don't think about "What is my connection with this other person, and what do I have to give them? What in return am I going to ask them for?" Again, I will bring it back to this other comment, a lot of times you don't know how the other person is going to help you, and you're not quite sure always how you're going to help them. Sometimes, it's quite surprising, but if you put yourself open to that, and you use some of the modern tools ‑ like I've become a real LinkedIn convert, because I love being able to get on LinkedIn and see who my friends know that I might want to talk to about industries completely foreign to me and vice versa. If somebody has a good friend from college who now wants to do something in the out of home advertising market and sees I'm on the board of Aventure and would like to talk to me. I don't mind doing that stuff because I sort of feel like there's this great, you know, we all help each other in this community and I'm a little bit of a believer in that kind of pay it forward. It's interesting right now because in Aventure I'm working closely on, I have to reach out and ask for a lot of favors, and I've been very aware that for a lot of my current roles in life I'm the one that asks for the favors than asked. Now that I'm doing the asking it's interesting, I'm uncomfortable. I'd much rather do a favor for someone else than ask somebody for a favor. It's my nature, and it's the nature of many people. But, I think that you have to get good at understanding "What am I asking for? Is it appropriate for me to ask it? Is the person capable of delivering it? Is it an appropriate amount of time for them to send and do something for me? And what could I possibly do for them?" I always try to make sure that people know I'm quite open to doing something for you in exchange, and by the way, no is a perfectly good answer, too. If I ask you a favor and the answer is no, just tell me no. I'm very comfortable with that. Lucy: That's great advice because so many people they really are either afraid to network, or don't know how to network, and that just makes it really clear. Heidi: Networking is also very awkward; somebody from Stanford called me up once and said, "Can I network with you?" What is that is that like my pen pal or something? Lucy: Just network. Heidi: Let's say you want to meet someone, and I guess, with the powers of Google and the Internet and all that, you might want to meet some important person. If you have no context, it's going to be a very fruitless conversation. But, every one of them, their kids go to school, they are on a charitable board, they may enjoy a certain kind of athletic activity. I'm not saying become a stalker, but generally, for example, if you want to get to know a person and they happen to be on the board of a charitable organization go find out what the annual fundraiser is on that charitable organization and volunteer to work at it. Chances are you're going to be able to meet that person over time if you get involved in something like that. And, by the way, you're doing something good too. That's again, one of the powers of Silicon Valley ‑ both good and bad ‑ you've got to be careful, you've got to find out if other moms and dads on the soccer sidelines have MBAs because everybody's kind of in this business. Heidi: It is interesting that you have so many different places where you meet and run into people, and so many people I do business with are friends of mine in other context. Lucy: So Heidi, you had talked earlier in the interview about different characteristics that you thought were really important to help entrepreneurs grow and build companies, but when you think about yourself, what are some of your personal characteristics that you have that have helped you to be successful as an entrepreneur? Heidi: Certainly tenacity. I mean, I'm very tenacious about... you put me on something I'm on a mission and I'm not going to let it go. I like to learn new things, so I like to push myself and try to learn something new. I think, when you're constantly learning it helps you get a better job, [laughs] and in so many areas. I'm definitely a people person, I love talking with people, I love meeting people. I'm very comfortable asking people for their opinions and I think, I'm a pretty good listener. So, I think that that also helps me be an entrepreneur, because you learn from other people, you gather opinions, you mold what you're doing. Frankly, it helps you in terms of going back to asking for favors, giving favors, recruiting people. People generally want to work with people they like and people they respect, which is another thing. My belief is that I'm going to be in this world for, I hope, a pretty long time. One thing I've learned being almost 50 and being in the Valley all this time is that you run into the same people over and over and over again. So, don't burn a bridge unless you've decided that's the best course of action. I like to sleep at night. I don't like to do bad deals, and I don't like to squeeze the last nickel out of somebody just because I have the upper hand. I like to live that way. While there's always different opinions about anything you do, I try to test everything. Does this match my ethics? Can I sleep at night? If my husband or my kids knew I did this, would they think less of me as a person? I like to live that way. I think, an entrepreneurship is not a zero sum game. Your gain doesn't have to come out of somebody else's loss. Larry: Boy, I'll say. You know, Heidi, one thing I've learned to do is that I'm going to call you "Coach" from now on. I just want to clarify one little thing. You said something earlier about kissing the frogs, or was it kissing your dogs? Heidi: Yeah, kissing frogs. Although frogs wish it was kissing dogs. Larry: Yeah. And you also just mentioned that you should ask for help. Do you want to introduce me to Bill Gates? Heidi: No. Larry: No. OK. Heidi: That's a good one you bring up, because it is one of those, how do you manage a relationship towards a person who's very important or famous? One thing I had to decide early on is, I just set certain rules. And I've gotten very comfortable saying "No" to people. So, people will say to me, "Can you introduce me to Bill Gates?" And the answer is, "No, I can't," because if I did that for everybody, they would.... And the hardest part is people thinking, "I have the best charity in the world. I have something that would be so interesting to the Foundation. Please help me get to the right person. Can you please send this to Bill and Melinda?" And I say no. One of the things that gives me comfort in saying no is that I say, "Look my own husband runs a charitable organization called Refugee Relief that does medical assistance in countries under conflict. He'd be a perfect candidate, and he hasn't even asked Bill and Melinda for money." One of the things I try to do is live by my own rules. The other thing I try to do is, for example, when I sold a company from my portfolio to Microsoft I didn't even talk to Bill about it. I'm not going to mention, "Hey, I'm selling one of my portfolio companies" to him. It's not relevant. I really try to respect that, particularly people who are in positions like Bill where everyone's approaching you all of the time, you need to be respectful of the pressures on that person's time. I think, that's one of the reasons why Bill and Melinda and I have a good and long‑standing relationship. They know that I respect that there needs to be boundaries there, because they don't have the luxury of living normal lives. Larry: Yeah, that's fact. By the way, of course, you know I was just saying that to.... Heidi: Oh, I know. Larry: However, last week we interviewed Brad Feld and he did say, "Hi to Heidi." Heidi: Oh, that's so sweet. I adore Brad. Larry: All right. Let me ask you this question. In your approach to your professional life, you do so many things. How do you bring about balance? Heidi: That's an excellent question. If you'd like I can bring my 12 and 14 year olds in here right now to continue the counterpoint to that. Larry: oh. Heidi: I do try to set limits. In my house, although we have wireless access, I'm not the person who walks around with my laptop and uses it everywhere. We certainly have a "no laptop in the bedroom" rule. I don't tend to watch TV and do email at the same time. I have a home office that I come in to do my work and then I try to leave it. I also try to have a commitment with my kids. If I say, "I'm going to stop working at seven," then I'm going to stop working at seven. I mix business and pleasure a lot. I have a lot of social engagements with people. I have a lot of people over for dinner. I try to engage my kids in some of that, because luckily at their ages they find some of that very interesting. In one of the projects I'm working on right now, I ask them for advice a lot. I've been able to pick their brains a lot about it. And they've been really great. I tell them, you know, if I'm having a bad day, you know I had a bad day about a legal contract I was working on. And because it didn't get done I missed a window of production for something. And I said to them, they said you know, "Why are you in such a bad mood?" And instead of saying something like, "Well, I had a bad day at work." I said, "Well, let me explain to you. This company needs a piece of paperwork before we can contract this production facility. We didn't get the piece of paperwork. Now because this production facility can only do things in, you know, they have another client the next three weeks that pushed me out a month. So, here's a one day delay on a contract that's going to cost me a three week delay on the production. And that's why I'm so mad about this today." And so that what is the thing? A teachable moment right? You know, I try to bring them in to the things that I'm doing. But, it is important sometimes to just close the door and say, "I'm sorry I'm not going to do this." I try very hard not to schedule meetings on the weekends. I try very hard not to schedule meetings at night. I try to really limit my travel because it is very disruptive to my family when I travel. And so, I try to make accommodations. Lucy: Well, and your daughters are wonderful. And having seen them at a couple of dinners. I mean the integration works really well. Heidi: They're pretty cute. Yeah. Lucy: They're pretty cute. It works really well because they get to see a lot of different people over here. Heidi: Yes they do. Lucy: That they wouldn't ordinarily see. They lead unusual lives. Heidi: We had a nice conversation about Norwegian and other things this morning. So, it was very good. Lucy: They were very funny. Heidi: And they do provide very funny moments. One time actually, Bill and Melinda were coming over for dinner. And Nicky was playing on her Xbox. And she knew Bill was coming over and said like "Can I have him sign my Xbox?" "Oh, I guess, you can ask him to sign your Xbox." Which she didn't ultimately do when he came over because she was too embarrassed. But, she said to me, "Microsoft, yeah, they make the Xbox. Do they make any other products?" And I just had to laugh. Heidi: You know, the eyes of a thirteen year old is like all they make is the Xbox. Lucy: Well you really have achieved a lot. And you have front row seats to a lot. And I have no doubt, fifty or not, that you are going to be on the front row for many, many years. Heidi: Not done yet. Lucy: Not done yet. So, tell us what's next for you. Heidi: Oh, I'm so excited about what I'm doing. But, I can't tell you. Sorry. Lucy: I'm going to jump across the desk and strangle her. Heidi: I know. I know. I am. You know I'm continuing to do my work with Mobee and then a company that we work on. And Brad and Jake my partners there. I mean, you know, we have a great relationship and I'm enjoying that. But, I am definitely an entrepreneur at heart. In fact I've been thinking, at some point on my link and profile. Right now, it says venture capitalist and recovering entrepreneur. And someday soon it's going to say "Relapsed entrepreneur and venture capitalist" because I just can't help myself. Heidi: So, I just started a little company. I actually funded it yesterday. I'm fortunate enough to have provided my own seed capital. I joke to my husband. I said, "It's very important tonight because we're having cocktails with my lead investor," which of course was me. [laughter] So, we laughed about that. So, I have a little start up that I'm working on, which I will hope to tell you all about really soon. But, it's not quite baked enough yet. So, you'll just have to wait. Lucy: I just hope it's about fifty year old women. Heidi: You will, you will buy one of these products. Well, I'm going to give you one. And Lucy. Larry Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Heidi RoizenInterview Summary: Born and raised in Silicon Valley, Heidi spent the first part of her career founding and growing tech companies. Now she enjoys helping entrepreneurs build companies as a coach instead of a player. Release Date: August 15, 2007Interview Subject: Heidi RoizenInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 34:33

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Sangita Verma Founder and CEO, TAG Networks Date: July 3, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Sangita Verma BIO: Sangita Verma leveraged 13 years of executive experience in the videogame industry to found the world’s preeminent interactive games-on-demand network in May 2003 -- TAG Television. Providing a full service, turnkey solution, TAG Networks provides the nation’s first massively deployable games channel for cable and IPTV television. TAG TV lets players enjoy the timeless appeal of popular and brand-name games including Tetris®, Battleship®, Risk®, Barney™, and Thomas the Tank Engine™, as well as popular online games including Bejeweled™, Diner Dash™, and Bookworm™, and Texas Hold 'Em Poker. In her role as CEO, Ms. Verma has secured $20 in funding from private equity investors, established exclusive content agreements with leading game suppliers and global brands, and filed eight patents covering key proprietary technologies for delivering interactive content for cable and IPTV. A strategic planner, veteran marketer, and business visionary, she taps skills gleaned from a varied yet focused career to lead TAG Networks' management team of seasoned game, licensing, video-on-demand, interactive television, technology and consumer entertainment product specialists. Prior to founding TAG Networks, Ms. Verma worked with Midway Games, starting with the company in 2000 as director of worldwide syndication. Previously, she had her own online marketing company, Craig New Media, working with Panasonic and Psygnosis (a Sony Company) among others. Before that she was group marketing director for Panasonic Interactive Media Co. Her videogame career started at Data East Corp., where she managed the U.S. marketing activities and then moved on to establish and manage Data East’s European office. Sangita Verma is a member of the Entrepreneurs Foundation's CEO Council and was voted one of the Top 50 Most Powerful Women In Cable Technology by CableWorld magazine in 2006. She is also a member of the Women in Cable and Telecommunications (WICT) "Tech It Out" mentoring programming which encourages girls to consider technical career paths. She is a graduate of UC Davis, having earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics. Ms. Verma lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband and two sons. Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, and this is another interview in a series of interviews with IT entrepreneurial women. And today, we're talking to the CEO and founder of TAG Networks, Sangita Verma. Hi, Sangita. How are you? Sangita Verma: Hi, Lucy. I'm great. Thanks for having me on your show. Lucy: Wonderful. With me today is Larry Nelson, from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm happy to be here, as you know. This is exciting. Lucy: Well, why don't you tell us a bit about w3w3.com, since these podcasts will be hosted on your site as well as the NCWIT site. Larry: Well, the short story is that we're an online business radio show. We started in '98, and we archive everything with pictures and audio, blogs, and podcasts. So that's us. Lucy: That's pretty exciting. Well, and we are excited to have you here today, Sangita. You have an awesome company. And I have to tell you, it must be every computer scientist's dream to work with a company that is so involved with gaming. And in fact, just to throw a little factoid in here, they did a survey recently of young men and women who decided they want to go into information technology, and in fact, many of them want to go in because of gaming. So, why don't you tell us a little bit about TAG Networks? It's a very exciting, on‑demand network for games. Sangita: Thanks, Lucy. You're right. Games are a lot of fun. They really are. I think that when it comes to technology, there's so many aspects that are very interesting, but I've never found anything as pure fun as the games part is. But, what we're doing at TAG Networks is we're creating the first games‑on‑demand television network. And so, as a consumer, you turn on your TV and you tune to a channel, just like you would HBO or MTV or BBC. The difference is that you can start playing games right there with your remote control that's already in your hand. The types of games that we offer are considered casual games, so we're not competing against consoles like Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3. I think, our games experience is more similar to what you would find on the Internet, at sites like Pogo or MSN Zone or AOL Games. So, it's puzzle games, card games, kids' games ‑ things like that. Lucy: It's a great concept, and I'm sure it's going to be extremely popular. And these are exciting times for you. I hear your company just raised a Series B on funding, and you're doing a scale‑up of your technology. Sangita: Yes. This is actually a very exciting time for us. When I describe it to people, I like to think that this is 1981 and we're MTV. We feel like we're just sort of right on the verge of taking off, and in a huge way. The trials that we've had at market with our cable operator partners so far have been phenomenal. It truly shows that consumers love games. They want to play games. They want to play them on a big screen. And if you make it easy right there for them, it's staggering the number of hours that they play and how frequently they play. So, we're very excited about that. And we're very excited that we've created some proprietary, amazing technology that is enabling us to be able to go to what I consider the next generation of TV networks. Lucy: Well, and maybe one more sort of incidental before we get into the interview. I have to say that NCWIT is having a reception pretty soon at the football stadium at the University of Colorado, and we have access to the JumboTron. Sangita: Oh, yeah. Lucy: And so, maybe, we could put a few games up there. It's on an IP network. It might all work. Sangita: That would be great. It's so funny you mentioned that, because when you think about one of the really popular things at a baseball game, as silly as it is, it's the little dot race game. Lucy: It surely is. Everybody loves it at the CU football games. Sangita: Right. Exactly. And so, there's a very, very simple application of a game, yet everyone loves it. I think, it just goes back to showing how people love games. Lucy: Well, and that gets us, maybe, into the interview, in terms of asking some questions about technology. I know TAG Networks has a lot of interesting technology that you have to use to deploy this type of game‑on‑demand network. But, other technologies that you see out there, Sangita, what are you seeing on the horizon that you think is especially cool? Sangita: I think that just the whole social networking phenomenon is very cool, and the technologies that are enabled by that. I think that it'll become even more interesting when it is tied across platforms and across devices. Right now, social networking is very big on the Internet, but it's growing on other platforms. For example, I had just read ‑ in fact, yesterday ‑ that Microsoft has the largest social network connected to the TV, via their Xbox Live service. And I think that as you start seeing these devices connecting people, and it's not limited anymore to a platform or device, that's where it becomes even more exciting. Larry: By the way, could we back up? I've just got one interesting question. How did you first get into technology? And then, tie that in with why are you an entrepreneur? Sangita: Oh, OK. Well, it's funny, because I don't think of myself as getting into technology. So, I kind of fell into the games industry. I was doing investor relations when I first got out of college. And I did that for a couple of years and decided that I wanted to do something that was a little more creative and a little more fun, and at a variety of different places, found a games company that sounded like a lot of fun. I didn't know anything about games at the time. This was back, gosh, 16, 17 years ago now. Nintendo was considered a kids' toy, was just taking off at that point. I started working for this games company called Data East and just fell in love with the industry. And I've watched how I think technology has progressed just amazingly across just about everything. I mean, the rate of acceleration of invention is incredible. But, in the games world, you really saw it, because you would see these eight‑bit games back in 1990, to what they're doing now on the Xbox 360. And that's all technology. That's all enabling entertainment. And so, as I got more into the games industry, I really started getting more into the technology that enables you to have a better games experience, to have a better consumer experience. So, it's funny, because I think when people think about technology, or certainly when most young women think about technology, which is where I was at that age, it didn't sound that fun. It didn't sound that glamorous. It sounded kind of nerdy. You had to know math. I think, all the aspects of technology that people really were harping on weren't necessarily the really fun things that technology can be, which is creating amazing user experiences and entertainment and platforms to be able to enable people to do the things that they want to do. And that's the part that hooked me and really got me into the technology aspect, as opposed to "I want to be a technologist." Larry: What about that leap to becoming an entrepreneur? Sangita: Oh. Gosh. You know? I don't know. I think, I just have always been one. It wasn't a conscious effort. It was just, I had an idea, I didn't see anyone doing it the way that I thought it should be done, and I just said, "You know what? I'm just going to do it." And I did it. There really was not a lot of thought. There wasn't a lot of pros and cons listed. It was just the thing to do. And I did it. Lucy: That's wonderful. I mean, I'm sitting here listening to your description of why you like technology, thinking that we need to have you come to our NCWIT meetings and carry that message, because that's exactly what we're up to is really trying to convey that sense of energy and passion and what makes technology so much fun. S Sangita: Yeah. And I was thinking about this, in preparation of us talking. When people think about becoming a doctor, for example, they just think about becoming a doctor and saving lives and what other aspects of it is it that really turns them on. They don't think about, "Oh, I've got to know physics. I've got to go to medical school for this." They don't think about all the little details that get involved in it. They just have the vision of what they want to be. And I think that, with technology in particular, we kind of miss that because, at least when I was in school, the dwelling was always on, "Well, you've got to do this. You've got to do this kind of math. This is what you've got to like to do." And the vision of what you can truly create wasn't ever shown as an end goal. Lucy: That's right. And I think that that's a really important message to get out there. So, Larry was asking a little bit about being an entrepreneur and what makes you tick in terms of being an entrepreneur. Who was it that influenced you along the way? Who, perhaps, is your greatest role model? Who's helped you along in this career path? Sangita: I think, it's a combination of things. I think, one, I've been very fortunate to work with just some fantastic people throughout my career. But, probably, the bigger driver was, when I started working with the games company back in 1990, they had a fantastic management team on board. I was 25 at the time, and I was excited that I would be able to learn from these people that were really good at what they did. Well, the company went through a series of changes, and, within a year, the whole management team was gone. And the next thing I knew, I was running all of North American marketing. Larry: [laughs] Lucy: [laughs] I'm not laughing because they were gone. It's just one of those moments in life, you know? Sangita: Yeah. I know. I joined the company in order to learn from these people, and then they disappeared, and I learned. It was trial by fire. It truly was. "You're in charge of North America. Now, go." And so, in hindsight, I think, maybe, that helped really instill my entrepreneurial spirit even more, because I didn't have a choice. I just had to learn. I had to do it. And it was very exciting. And of course, you make mistakes as you go, but you learn from them. And I think everything that I did up until I started TAG Networks kind of led to a culmination of where I am with TAG Networks and why we think we're going to be really successful. Larry: Let me ask this. It sounds like you've had an exciting and very fun career all this time. You've accomplished a great deal; you're on the road to accomplishing even more. What is something that maybe you've had to put up with a little that maybe you didn't get to overcome, you had to learn to live with, along the way? Sangita: Oh, that's a great question. I think, the only thing that I can say ‑ I'm kind of living it right now, frankly ‑ is you can only control what you can control, and everything else you just have to kind of roll with. That's a tough lesson. And it's tough for, I think, probably any entrepreneur, but it certainly is for me, because an old boss once called me I'm a steamroller. I just go and I get things done. And so, when you get stopped by things out of your control, it's difficult. Certainly, TAG Networks, our distributors are cable operators like Comcast and Time Warner, and IPTV companies like Verizon and AT&T. And anyone who has worked with those operators knows that they have their own timelines, and they're not necessarily your timelines. And so, I think that has been a challenge. It's just learning to become more patient. And that's hard to do. And it's really hard to do given the environment that TAG Networks is located in. We are literally across the street from Google. And so, we're right here in the midst of the Silicon Valley, where things happen so quickly, and it's hard to be working with industries where their speed is not the same as what is around you. Lucy: I hate it when I can't control things. Don't you? [laughter] Larry: Put your hand down now. Put your hand down. [laughter] Sangita: I'm getting better about it. But, it is hard. I mean, that's probably one of my hardest... Lucy: I think, it's hard, too. Hate it. I think that that's great advice, to sort of sit back sometimes and be patient and see which way things are going to kind of land, right? And I think, you probably have some other really great advice, that if you were giving advice to a young person today about entrepreneurship, what other things would you say to them? Sangita: Probably, the biggest thing ‑ and maybe it's a cliché ‑ is really, you need to be passionate about what you're doing. If you believe in your idea, then follow it. And then, the second part of that is, keep following it. Don't let people talk you out of it. Because it is amazing to me how many people either don't understand your vision, don't believe in your vision, or just don't think it'll work. They will get in the way. And if you let them talk you out of it, it's a mistake, because I find that when things are right, they all fall together in just the most interesting ways that you could not have planned for. Larry: Sangita, let me ask this. This is no time to be humble. I want you just to be straightforward about this. What characteristics do you have that make you a successful entrepreneur? Sangita: Oh, this is actually really easy for me to answer. I am tenacious. I do not give up. Larry: [laughs] Sangita: I don't take no for an answer. Frankly, I'm just a pain in the ass. [laughter] Lucy: We're kind of laughing because, in this series of interviews, this characteristic shows up over and over, maybe, slightly differently said ‑ relentless, persistent. I think, you said "steamroller." Larry: I think we ought to have an award called the "pain in the..." You know what I mean. [laughter] Sangita: It makes sense to me that that would be a strong characteristic of an entrepreneur, just given the obstacles that you run into. If you just gave up, you wouldn't get anywhere. And so, I think, it's the people that are willing to stick it out. And when I say stick it out, of course, you may need to make course correction, and you may decide an idea that you had wasn't quite right and it needs to be refined here or there. But, if you believe in a vision and keep going, and don't let things get in the way and deter you, at the end of the day I think you'll be successful. Lucy: I think, that's well said. And being an entrepreneur is just so much work, and you do have to be relentless and take risks and get out there. And yet, we recognize, too, that people have personal lives. They have causes they believe in. They do things with families and friends. So, we were just wondering, in your particular case, how do you personally bring balance into your professional and personal life? Sangita: That is probably the ultimate question. I went to a Women in Cable conference in New York, a couple of months ago now, and it was really refreshing for me because up on the stage were some very high‑powered women in cable speaking: Gerry Laybourne, who is, I believe, the chairman of Oxygen, and a few others. And the one comment that they made, which I think resonated with everyone, including myself, is, "There's no such thing as balance. You just can't do it, so don't even try." And I think, that's right. I think, you need to pick what is important, and you just can't do everything. So, for me personally, at this stage of my life, it's a business. It's TAG Network, and it's my family. I've got two little boys. I'm married. I've got a husband and two little boys, who are four and nine. And so, my life really is my family and my work. And what I've had to sacrifice are things like having a clean house and getting together with friends as much as I used to ‑ I don't do that anymore. And that's OK. I mean, I know that that'll change. It's just sort of a stage that I'm in at right now. And I think that when women try and do everything, where they try and have the cleanest house and the best‑behaved children and run a company and throw parties like Martha Stewart, that's where you get into trouble, because you just can't do it. It's crazy to try. Lucy: I don't want you coming over and seeing my house. [laughs] It doesn't look very good either. Sangita: Trust me. Then, I'll feel right at home. Lucy: [laughs] It doesn't look very good either. Larry: That wasn't a slip of the tongue when you said "trouble" and "Martha Stewart" in the same sentence, was it? Lucy: I don't think Martha gets to come over to our house either. Sangita: But, it's a matter of figuring out what the priorities are and realizing that something's got to give, and being comfortable with just saying, "OK. Let's let that part go for now. I'll come back to it when I can." Larry: Now, I'm going to put you on the spot. Sangita: OK. Larry: All right. You've already achieved a great deal. Thank you for sharing your personal, and professional, aspects of your life this past number of years. And I'd like to ask, what's next for you, above and beyond TAG Networks? Sangita: Gosh. That's a great question. Again, I am so focused, again, just on TAG and my family that I rarely poke my head up to see what else is going on. I do know one of the things that is important to me ‑ and as well to my husband, to us, I think, as a family ‑ is figuring out: how do we give back to the community? We've been so lucky that the next stage, that hopefully TAG is very successful and we'll sell it for millions of dollars and we'll have some time on our hands. What can we do then, to give back to the community? And so, we've got some ideas of different things that we'd like to do. So, I think, perhaps taking some time off to do, for lack of a better word, social venture work, or enabling other people to get to where they want to be, would be fantastic. Larry: Oh. A person after your own heart. Lucy: A person after my own heart. Well, thank you very much, Sangita. This has really been interesting. I think, you're very inspirational, and I know our listeners will get a lot out of hearing your advice and some of your experiences. And I just want to remind everybody to share this podcast with a friend. And I'd like to remind listeners where you can find these podcasts. You can find them at www.ncwit.org, as well as w3w3.com. And don't forget to share this podcast with a friend. Thanks very much, Sangita. Sangita: Thank you. Larry: Thank you. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Sangita VermaInterview Summary: Sangita Verma saw a void in the marketplace: games on TV, piped directly through your cable line. Release Date: July 3, 2007Interview Subject: Sangita VermaInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 17:17

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Donna Auguste Founder, Leave a Little Room Foundation Date: June 26, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Donna Auguste BIO: Donna Auguste founded Freshwater Software, Inc. in 1996 to provide companies with tools that would help them monitor and enhance their presence on the Internet. She served as CEO of Freshwater until she sold it in 2000 for $147 million. She went on to found the Leave a Little Room Foundation, LLC, a philanthropic organization that helps to provide housing, electricity, and vaccinations to poor communities around the world. Even as a young girl Donna's interest in technology and engineering was clear; she used to take apart household appliances just to see how they worked. With support from her family she attended the University of California at Berkeley, where some male students refused to work with her on project teams and one professor told her that she had been allowed into Berkeley only because the admissions standards had been waived. However, Donna earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and computer science from Cal and went on to become the first African American woman in the PhD program at Carnegie Mellon University. Prior to founding Freshwater, Auguste was senior director for US West Advanced Technologies, where she met Freshwater co-founder, John Meier. Together they developed Freshwater from a tiny start-up into a multi-million-dollar company with Fortune 500 clients and a suite of recognized products such as SiteScope, SiteSeer, and Global Site Reliance. Early in her career Donna worked at Xerox and was part of the engineering team at IntelliCorp that introduced some of the world's first commercial artificial intelligence knowledge. She also spent several years at Apple Computer, where she was awarded four patents for her innovative engineering work on the Apple Newton Personal Digital Assistant. Although project-development teams often are made up of people who share similar backgrounds, Donna has always sought to create diverse teams for her projects. She says her style comes from her Creole background and from growing up in Louisiana and Berkeley, where diversity was an important part of the culture. Lucy Sanders: Hi, I'm Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO for the National Center for Women in Information Technology, or NCWIT, and this interview is part of the series of interviews that we're doing with wonderful IT entrepreneurs, people who have fabulous stories to tell. We are going to talk to them about their lives, their work, their passions, everything. We want to get inside of their brains and understand what makes them tick. Larry Nelson is here with me today from W3W3, as we interview Donna Auguste. We are very thrilled to be here in Donna's home with this interview. She lives in a very lovely neighborhood in Denver. I think, as many of you know, she's not only a wonderful entrepreneur but also a social activist. So Donna, welcome. Donna Auguste: Thank you, thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Lucy: Larry, good to see you again... Larry Nelson: It is always a pleasure, and we are so fortunate just to be able to meet, let alone talk to and interview, some of the sharp people from all over the country. You just happen to be in our backyard. Donna: Yeah. Larry: This is really super. At W3W3.com, we call ourselves the voice of the Colorado technology community, so you fit right in. Donna: Well, thank you. Lucy: So Donna, you have a really diverse background. You are a serial entrepreneur, having started Freshwater Software. You also have worked in large corporations as an entrepreneur, at Xerox PARC, at Apple, and even at Bell Labs. And you've also started a foundation called the Leave a Little Room Foundation, which really emphasizes giving back and global outreach. So, you've done a little bit of everything. I'm really excited to talk to you about entrepreneurship. I think maybe with that our first question will be: how did you first get into technology? You have an extensive technology background. And what technology do you really look at as being cool today? Donna: I first started out interested in technology when I was a kid and the Apollo space missions were broadcast on television. Lucy: Ah. Donna: I was just riveted. When they would show the mission control room, I'd get close to the TV as you could get just checking out all of the details. From that point forward I knew I wanted to be involved in computers and technology and emerging science. Lucy: Well, I think space exploration is fascinating. In fact, some people have said today that that type of grand challenge in computing could spark a whole new revolution of computer scientists and technology innovation. Larry: Yeah, that's absolutely right. You know, one of the things that you brought up that really motivated you to look into it and then really get all revved up about it, we don't seem to have that out in society today for the young people to get to. I don't think we could call electronic games the answer to that. Lucy: It's an excellent challenge. Larry: That's right. Donna: There are some cool technologies out there. You're right— they are different in terms of the degree or intensity of inspiration. For example, renewable energy is an area I'm very interested in. That's an area where I think the coolest solutions will come with the generations who are coming behind us. They are going to be looking at the use of solar, the use of wind, and the use of hydrogen in ways that we haven't even thought of yet. Larry: That's a fact. Now, with all this as a backdrop, what is it that ever compelled you to become an entrepreneur. Donna: To become an entrepreneur... Well, I like inventing solutions to problems. That's something I've always been very curious about ‑ not necessarily looking for obvious solutions, but looking for effective solutions. And I like lateral thinking. I like to do lateral thinking puzzles. I like to do lateral thinking just when walking around visiting businesses or parks or other places. I'm always thinking about how things could be done differently. How could something be looked at in a different way? Since I do that for fun, I thought it would be great to do that for business. Larry: Isn't that a fact? Of course, over the years we've seen you on different occasions get some neat awards. I know that's always nice. It's nice for you and it's nice for your team. But what is it about entrepreneurship that really makes you tick? What's that push? Is it the other answers, or is it something else? Donna: I would say what makes me tick is the lateral thinking. Because there's always something new to discover, a new way to think about it that may not be obvious from the start. Once that starts ticking in my brain, I usually can't shut it off. Lucy: I wanted to follow up on that because the entrepreneurship we often think about is starting new companies, which you've done. But I also think there's entrepreneurship inside of large companies. Looking back, say, at your experience at Apple, what can you say about differences between entrepreneurship in a large company or outside of a large company? Donna: They're very similar. The problem solving techniques are very similar. In fact, the entrepreneurship is almost a day‑to‑day kind of experience. I'll give you an example from the Freshwater days, which was a small company environment. The particular problem that we were looking at one point was something that could come up in a lot of different situations. We were moving into a new building, and the move date was fast approaching. Talking with the local telephone company, the T1 line we would need in order to run the business was not going to be turned on in time. They had promised us that day, we had set up our move, but it wasn't going to happen. Lucy: Those darn people with those T1 lines. Larry: Yeah, right. Donna: And we were running an Internet business. We had to have a T1 line or we weren't going to be in business. Lucy: Nope, you sure weren't. Donna: So, we were stuck. It happened that across the parking lot from our new building was another building. In that building was a small business that was going to be shutting down. Unfortunately they were going out of business. I walked over and I talked with the person who was closing up shop over there. I said, "Do you all have a T1?" He said, "Yeah, we do, but we're going to be turning it off in a couple days." I said, "OK, hang on a second!" Larry: So, he got you a deal. Donna: Right. I said, "How about if we hook up to your T1 and then we'll pay the bill until our T1 comes on." He said, "Well, we're across the parking lot. How are you going to do that?" I said, "Well, you have a ceiling and we have a ceiling." We actually ended up wiring through their ceiling and through their roof, and with the permission of our landlord, across the parking lot. We dropped it down into our roof and our ceiling. We hooked ourselves up to their T1, and that's what we ran on until ours came through. Lucy: So, it's that same kind of problem solving. You have to really scrap and look for solutions to all kinds of issues. Donna: That's right. Lucy: Along those lines, we were interested in understanding who influenced you or supported you on this career path. Most people have role models, or at least either people they know or people they don't know who they admire from afar that really influenced them. Perhaps you could share some of that for us. Donna: The strongest influence in my life, as you've heard me say at awards ceremonies and other events, is God. When I receive an award or any recognition, I always try and make it a point to have people understand that this is for the glory and honor of God. Everything I do is only for the glory and honor of God, and only through the grace of God. So, the credit is not mine and the influence is not my own. It's the influence of God, my family, my church community ‑ all of those shaped me from my earliest days and continue to shape me all the time now. Larry: I want to congratulate you. Now, with all the different things that you've been through, some of them very exciting like the T1 line that you were talking about, what is one of the greatest challenges that you've faced as an entrepreneur? Donna: I'd say the single greatest challenge has been learning to trust my intuition, especially when the stakes are high. During the years when I was growing up, I learned to pay attention to my intuition and to factor my intuition in my decision making process along with other sources. Learning to trust my intuition when the stakes were really high was much harder. When my business was on the line, my payroll was on the line, and my customers were on the line, I was more inclined to just grab onto other people's advice instead of listening to my own heart. I'll give you an example, and this is one that got a little heated. In Freshwater's earliest days, my board of directors advised me ‑ and these were investors in my business, so I needed to listen to these folks ‑ to really focus on building brand. I wasn't nearly as interested in building brand as I was in building a revenue. I was thinking that we needed customers and we needed money coming through the door. They were saying, "No, we've cultivated many, many, many businesses in the past. What you need is to get your brand in position and to get yourself established as a leader in your space." Well, I didn't do that because it didn't feel right. It seemed to me that although the priorities for Internet companies at the time were not emphasizing revenue, I thought our priorities should emphasize revenue. So, we decided that we had better get busy generating revenue and getting some customers in the door. And it's a good thing we did that, because a little while later the rules changed. Fortunately, we were profitable by then. Larry: Very good. Lucy: Wow, listening to your intuition is an important thing. Do not get away from that. I think that's great advice for sure. Larry: Yes. Lucy: And speaking of advice, one of the things that we really hope to do with this series is influence people to think about entrepreneurial careers. If you were sitting here with a young person, what kind of advice would you give them about entrepreneurship? Donna: I would suggest three things. There are three things that I keep in mind, so I would share those with others to keep in mind. The short version of those three is first passion, second is self‑discipline, and the third is tenacity. I'll tell you what I mean by each of those. In terms of passion, it's important for each of us to know the source of our passion. It's important to know the source of our strength, the source of our intuition, the source of our values and our faith. And to be able to turn to that source, especially when we need direction and we need to make tough decisions, because self‑discipline comes in. Do the homework. You have to do the homework. You have to do preparation. You have to sit down and figure out and study and examine the areas that require analysis, so that you could make an informed decision when you need to. And the third, in terms of tenacity, is being persistent. If the door you need to get through is closed and locked, scout around until you find an open window. Just figure out a way to keep moving forward. And sometimes two solutions merge in the most unlikeliest of ways. Lucy: Well, Larry and I hear this theme of persistence a lot. Larry: All the time. Lucy: A lot. And sometimes it's persistence. Other people put words like relentlessness on the table. Donna: I find that there's a very thin line between being persistent and being a pest. It's OK. Sometimes you have to drift back and forth across that line. Lucy: Well, I certainly find now as a nonprofit CEO, that frequent reminders really pay off with people. It works pretty well. Larry: One of the things that you had mentioned (your little checklist of three: passion, self‑discipline‑‑doing the homework, tenacity or persistence) and I think one of our past presidents, Calvin Coolidge said, "Persistence is omnipotent." So, I think that there's a little bit of power there. But what would be your three characteristics that made you a successful entrepreneur? Donna: I would say those three. I'm passionate myself. And if I'm going to do it, I'm going to all out. And because the source of my strength is my relationship with God, I tend to that relationship. It's very important; I give it a lot of priority. I give it my time. I give it my attention. Prayer is very important to me, and taking the time for prayer is something that rates high on my list. It comes before many other things that can fill up a day. Prayer is where I start. So, that passion is a big part of me. Self‑discipline is part of it. As you know, I'm a musician. I'm a church musician, and I play bass guitar primarily. Practicing my bass guitar, practicing fundamentals, practicing the new and cool and fun songs, it's all fun. It's all enjoyable. And all of that is necessary to lay the groundwork before you go and play an instrument, for example, for the congregation. In terms of tenacity, all of my performance reviews and all those big companies you've listed that I've worked at, year after year after year, my performance reviews, my manager would always say, "very tenacious." I don't know if that's good, or if that's bad. But she's very tenacious. Lucy: I think that's good. Larry: Yeah, I do too. And I've talked to some other business leaders around the area who know you. And they use words like that, "she's tenacious." Yeah. Lucy: I think that's wonderful. Larry: In fact, I think, Lucy, I think you said, "She was relentless." Maybe not. Lucy: No, no. Not me. Not me. Although I am curious to understand more about your foundation, the Leave a Little Room Foundation, because I know that's where a lot of your passion is right now. So can you give us a little bit about what your foundation does? Donna: Absolutely. I'd be happy to. The Leave a Little Room Foundation is based on a very simple premise, that it's a good idea for people to come together and share the different ways in which we've been blessed. One person might have one talent. Another person might have a different talent. Another might have a resource. And if we come together and share our blessings and leave room for God to do what God can do in the midst of all that, then amazing things happen as a result. So, the concrete ways in Leave a Little Room, we do work in Tanzania, Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Uganda. We do different kinds of projects in those countries in East Africa. We've built schools. We've helped to staff and supply hospital clinics. We've put up solar electricity systems, solar powered vaccine refrigerators. In Mexico, we've also tried... It's a little closer to home, where we build houses for people who were living in shacks. And their families, who are doing their best, in terms of working and surviving, but the housing they have available is made of tarp and plywood and, maybe, car parts. And so we go in and over the course of a few days, we build them a new house from the ground up. And it's a wonderful transforming experience each time you do it. Lucy: And did I read that you were also doing some work along the Gulf coast, post‑Katrina? Donna: Yes, we have. And we will continue doing that work there as folks there rebuild. We've been down to Pasqualla, Mississippi as well as to the New Orleans area to help folks scrape out their housing, scrape out rotting wood, floors, walls, and put in brand new components in their house. Lucy: I'm sure that the people are most appreciative of it. I mean, having been from Louisiana myself, we've taken some students down there to do some work in the Ninth Ward ourselves. And this is kind of a transition for our next question, although it sounds like you're very busy person... Larry: Boy, is that a fact. Lucy: We are curious to know how such successful people really do balance their work and their personal lives. Do you have any advice on that? Donna: Well, a couple of things that comes to mind. One is because I'm a technologist on the one hand and a musician on the other, those two activities in my life, which I invest a lot of time in, balance each other in a lot of ways. A left‑brain, right‑brain kind of balance. But also working diligently and attentively head‑down on technology is very different than practicing music as a part of a band and a choir and being out with our community at church, administering to people through gospel music. Those two balance each other. And then the other aspect for me is prayer. Prayer calms me, and recharges me, and pulls me away from the busy activities of day‑to‑day life. To take a walk and view and think about what's important. Larry: You know, Donna, you've done so much and these are nowhere near even your most important highlights, but from Apple to Freshwater Technologies, A Month Ago Labs... Lucy: A Month Ago Labs? Larry: Yeah...and all the other important things. And here you've got this wonderful foundation, Leave a Little Room. You've done so much, and I know you're going to be doing more work here. But what's next for Donna Auguste? Donna: Well, next is everyday and each day that follows. Whatever the Lord puts before me, that's what I do. And one of the cool things about it is God doesn't have any limitations in terms of interesting and exciting things going on in the world. So, what I've called to do from one time to the other can be new and different in each case. The challenge for me is when I'm getting involved in something where there is an area that's unfamiliar to me then that self‑discipline comes back in. I sit down and I do my studying and I do my research. I do my homework so that I can understand enough to ask lots of questions, listen to people, and learn from others. And then move ahead and get it done. Figure out how to get it done. Larry: Fantastic. Lucy: So, you may start another technology company. Larry: Let's start that rumor. We're good. I'll sign up. Lucy: I'll sign up, too. Donna: Actually, there is a very specific project that I'm working on, and it brings together a number of different facets of projects I'm involved in. And it is called Skills 24/7 dot com. It is an Internet video‑oriented type of project. And the idea is that within this environment of Skills 24/7, anyone that is looking to learn in a certain topic area, or a certain subject matter can visit this website and look for video clips that teach on that topic. Larry: Oh, wow! Donna: And the video clips are between five and 15‑minutes in length. And they cover a very specific area of each topic. And when you put them all together in a broad sweep, they'll cover a wide range in each topic. Lucy: Fascinating. Donna: There is another company. Larry: I knew it. Lucy: I knew it. I could tell. Larry: There's no doubt about it. Lucy: Well, thank you very much. I know all the listeners really appreciate hearing this interview, and we should probably remind people where it's going to be hosted. You can find it at the NCWIT website at www.ncwit.org, also at w3w3.com. And can you give people the URL for the Leave a Little Room Foundation in case they want to hear more? Donna: Absolutely. It's www.leavealittleroom.org. Lucy: Well, thank you. This was wonderful. We enjoyed coming to Denver to see you. Thank you, very much. Larry: That's right. By the way, we should also include Skills 24/7 dot com. Lucy: Absolutely. Larry: That's lovely. Alright, and by the way, you listeners out there, would you pass this interview along to others that you think would learn from it, and benefit in some fashion? And they can tune in and listen 24/7 and download it as a podcast. Lucy: Thank you. Larry: All right. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Donna AugusteInterview Summary: Donna Auguste has had an interest in technology and engineering since she was just a girl. She used to take apart household appliances just to see how they worked. Release Date: June 26, 2007Interview Subject: Donna AugusteInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 17:51