Podcasts about openview

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Episode Summary In this episode of OnBase, Kyle Lacy discusses strategies for achieving cross-functional alignment between sales, marketing, and other teams. He identifies the main B2B marketing challenge as aligning these groups around common metrics and goals, emphasizing the need for documented processes and a shared revenue model. Kyle stresses the importance of marketing demonstrating its contribution to sales outcomes, not just brand-building. He also shares insights on leveraging AI tools while cautioning against replacing human sales roles. Overall, Kyle provides practical advice for B2B marketers seeking to improve cross-functional alignment and drive business growth. About the guest Kyle has spent the last 17 years building, scaling, failing, and winning in high-growth software. He's currently serving the Jellyfish team as their CMO, and before joining the Jellyfish “bloom,” he had the pleasure of building a company called Lessonly. He has also been fortunate to lead teams at Seismic, OpenView, Salesforce, and ExactTarget. But most importantly, he is the father to two wonderful boys, an energetic dog, and one too many books on World War II. Connect with Kyle Lacy Key takeaways - Cross-functional alignment: Success in sales and marketing hinges on aligning around shared performance metrics e.g., pipeline, revenue) and fostering collaboration across teams. - Focus on key numbers: Misalignment often occurs when sales and marketing teams aren't tracking the same metrics. Agreement on crucial numbers is vital for achieving alignment. - Sales and marketing collaboration: Understanding the sales model, including pipeline coverage and quota attainment, is critical for marketers to contribute effectively to revenue. - Importance of brand: While brand building is essential, it must always tie back to measurable business results like pipeline and bookings. - AI in marketing: AI is useful as an assistant for research, content creation, and data analysis, but it's not yet capable of fully replacing human tasks, especially in prospecting. - Engaging content: Effective case studies and white papers should focus on clear ROI data rather than just promotional content, making them more engaging and useful for prospects. - Documentation and process: Having a well-documented process and alignment on definitions like MQLs) helps prevent confusion and misalignment between teams. - Marketing's goal: The ultimate purpose of marketing is to help sales close deals, and success is determined by contributions to pipeline and quota. Quotes "Nobody cares about your brand campaign if your sales team hits 40% quota attainment." "If you're not aligned with the sales leader and not looking at the same numbers, eventually it's going to break." Recommended Resource Books "Elon Musk" by Walter Isaacson: Kyle recommends this biography for its insights into the mindset of innovators with extreme urgency and ambition. Newsletters Ultra Successful by Dr. Julie Gurner: A paid newsletter Kyle highly recommends. He praises Dr. Gurner for her brilliant insights, noting that it's one of the few newsletters he subscribes to. ⁠Connect with Kyle Lacy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow us on LinkedIn ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're back with the first episode of our second season of Shifting Priorities. This time, we're talking to Margaret Kelsey. Margaret is the Founder of TatCo and Co-host of Don't Say Content.Previously, she worked for companies like OpenView, Appcues, and InVision.In this week's episode, Margaret and I tackle important topics, including...Starting your own business and prioritizing working less but taking on more impactful projectsThe importance of being authentic and relatable with your team while still holding strong emotional boundariesHow to price out your services to ensure you're making more than enough to live comfortablyWhy more women need to remember to be gentle with themselves, and how to do soPlus, there's a little update from me about what I've been up to these last seven months. 

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Kyle Lacy is the Chief Marketing Officer of Jellyfish—a platform that helps developers make data-backed decisions on resource investments. Across two decades he has built companies like Lessonly, Openview, Salesforce and ExactTarget. He's also a husband and the father of two kids. In our conversation today we discussed:* Managing work, life and parenting appropriately* Handling stress across the different facets of your life* Dispelling the myth about separation of ‘church and state' between family and work* Learning how to put your kids before yourself* The role of nature vs. nurture in parenting* The most important invention ever - the pee pee teepee* How most parenting advice is complete crap—Where to find Kyle Lacy* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylelacy* X: https://x.com/kyleplacyWhere to find Adam Fishman* FishmanAF Newsletter: www.FishmanAFNewsletter.com* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamjfishman/* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/startupdadpod/—In this episode, we cover:[1:33] Welcome[2:10] Kyle's Professional background[4:26] What life was like growing up[6:12] Siblings[6:24] Do your siblings have give you parenting advice?[6:53] His family now and how he met his wife?[9:06] Are his kids back to school?[10:59] Decision to start a family[12:34] Work/life balance[15:27] Support network[17:23] Separation of “church and state”[19:58] Earliest memory after becoming a father?[22:43] Dads and emotions[24:11] Putting kids before yourself[26:37] Surprising aspect of fatherhood[28:18] Advice for younger Kyle?[29:55] Advice to ignore?[31:29] Fav book to read to kids[32:14] Nature vs. Nurture[33:27] Parenting frameworks[35:29] How Kyle's parenting style evolved[38:02] Did parenting change you as a manager?[40:53] When do he and his partner not align[44:02] Kid's relationship to tech[47:42] Mistake as a father?[48:33] Follow along[50:11] Rapid fire—Show references:Jellyfish:https://jellyfish.co/ExactTarget (now Salesforce): https://www.salesforce.com/Lessonly (now Seismic): https://seismic.com/lessonly/OpenView: https://openviewpartners.com/Sam Richard LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-crowell-richard/Sam Richar Twitter: @SamCRichardSpokane, Washington: https://www.visittheusa.com/destination/spokaneIndianapolis, Indiana: https://www.visittheusa.com/destination/indianapolisAnderson University: https://andersonuniversity.edu/Twitter Marketing for Dummies: https://www.amazon.com/Twitter-Marketing-Dummies-Kyle-Lacy/dp/0470930578Branding Yourself: How to Use Social Media to Invent or Reinvent Yourselfby Erik Deckers & Kyle Lacy: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-Yourself-Social-Reinvent-Biz-Tech/dp/0789749726CodeSweep (now HCL Software): https://www.hcl-software.com/appscan/products/appscan-codesweepFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/Orange Theory: https://www.orangetheory.com/en-usGreenlight: https://greenlight.com/Linda Flanagan Episode: youtube.com/watch?v=YLqEX8lZeFIPee pee tee pee: https://www.amazon.com/Peepee-Teepee-Sprinkling-WeeWee-Cellophane/dp/B000NM3DFYWhat to Expect When You're Expecting: https://www.amazon.com/What-Expect-When-Youre-Expecting/dp/0761187480Boston, MA: https://www.boston.gov/Calvin & Hobbes: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Calvin-Hobbes-Bill-Watterson/dp/1449433251Dogman: https://pilkey.com/series/dog-manGemstone Dragons: https://www.samanthamclark.com/gemstone-dragons/Diary of a Wimpy Kid: https://wimpykid.com/Big Nate: https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Popularity-Nothing-Possibly-Strikes/dp/0062968610Crocs: https://www.crocs.com/Jibbitz: https://www.crocs.com/c/jibbitzJosh & Carla's Episode: youtube.com/watch?v=YiaE6ZmaOIQNew Balance white shoes: https://www.newbalance.com/men/shoes/all-shoes/Nike: https://www.nike.com/Bush's beans: https://www.bushbeans.com/en_US/The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt: https://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Generation-Rewiring-Childhood-Epidemic/dp/B0C9N2L56X/Apple Vision pro: https://www.apple.com/apple-vision-pro/Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/iPad: https://www.apple.com/ipad/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/Diaper Genie: https://diapergenie.com/Colts: https://www.colts.com/Corvette: https://www.chevrolet.com/upcoming-vehicles/2025-corvette-zr1Pink Fong: https://www.pinkfong.com/en/Baby Shark: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNVE4szbMrOZk9IheX8vHbQHome Alone: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099785/Gettysburg: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107007/—For sponsorship inquiries email: podcast@fishmana.com.For Startup Dad Merch: www.startupdadshop.com Production support for Startup Dad is provided by Tommy Harron at http://www.armaziproductions.com/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit startupdadpod.substack.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On this episode, Kyle Poyar, Operating Partner at OpenView, delves into the transformative power of community-led growth and its impact on businesses. Kyle shares his expertise on how companies can effectively engage with their users to drive sustainable growth and build strong brands.Specifically, Kyle discusses:- The importance of understanding the needs and pain points of your audience.- How to leverage existing communities for faster results.- The role of community in creating a new category, as demonstrated by HubSpot's inbound marketing.- The significance of connecting users with peers to share best practices.- Strategies for amplifying the voices of thought leaders within the community.- The benefits of community-driven support for user activation and value realization.- How community engagement can drive top-of-funnel growth and reduce customer acquisition costs.- The dual role of community members in sharing experiences and learning from others.- The impact of community on overall business metrics and functions.- Effective ways to build a trusted voice within existing communities.Resources Mentioned:Kyle Poyar's Growth Unhinged Community - https://www.growthunhinged.com/Kyle Poyar - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/OpenView - https://openviewpartners.com/Lloyed Lobo's Book: “From Grassroots to Greatness” - https://FromGrassrootsToGreatness.comThis episode is brought to you by:Leverage community-led growth to skyrocket your business. “From Grassroots to Greatness” by author Lloyed Lobo will help you master 13 game-changing rules from some of the most iconic brands in the world — like Apple, Atlassian, CrossFit, Harley-Davidson, HubSpot, Red Bull and many more — to attract superfans of your own that will propel you to new heights. Grab your copy today at FromGrassrootsToGreatness.com.Each year the US and Canadian governments provide more than $20 billion in R&D tax credits and innovation incentives to fund businesses. But the application process is cumbersome, prone to costly audits, and receiving the money can take as long as 16 months. Boast automates this process, enabling companies to get more money faster without the paperwork and audit risk. We don't get paid until you do! Find out if you qualify today at https://Boast.AI.Launch Academy is one of the top global tech hubs for international entrepreneurs and a designated organization for Canada's Startup Visa. Since 2012, Launch has worked with more than 6,000 entrepreneurs from over 100 countries, of which 300 have grown their startups to seed and Series A stage and raised over $2 billion in funding. To learn more about Launch's programs or the Canadian Startup Visa, visit https://LaunchAcademy.ca.Content Allies helps B2B companies build revenue-generating podcasts. We recommend them to any B2B company that is looking to launch or streamline its podcast production. Learn more at https://contentallies.com.#product #marketing #innovation #startup #generativeai #AI

Partho Ghosh is a customer-centered, data-informed product executive and GM who specializes in B2B SaaS, MarTech, product-led growth, and creating measurable product processes that lead to efficient growth and market fit. He is the VP and Product & General Manager at SecurityScoreCard, the global leader in cybersecurity ratings, response, and resilience. He also serves as an advisor for OpenView, through which he advises on product-led growth. Before working at SecurityScoreCard, Partho served as a general manager for Hootsuite. Partho holds a Bachelor's of Business Administration, Business Management from British Columbia Institute of Technology. Partho joins me today to explore the “feature factory” trap and how having a clear product management lifecycle can help avoid it. He emphasizes the importance of future thinking in product management decisions, even when dealing with short-term revenue goals. He outlines his philosophy on product management and the “Build, Measure, Learn” principle. Partho also highlights the value of having a data-informed mindset and offers advice to product managers seeking leadership support.   “I've always used ‘feature factory' in a negative connotation, but that might be unfair if you're a scaling start-up. Founders need revenue growth, profitability, and to make ends meet.” - Partho Ghosh This week on Innovation Talks: ●     Partho's background as a business analyst, his transition into product management, and diving into B2B SaaS ●     The challenges of testing and validating the effectiveness of a free-to-sales motion in the self-serve space ●     The importance of future-thinking in product management decisions ●     Navigating organizational changes and cultural shifts ●     Careers as marathons and the evolving nature of the professional journey ●     The need for continuous learning in product management ●     Embracing generative AI and how customer expectations around AI have changed ●     The transformative nature of technological advancements ●     Partho's product development process and lifecycle ●     The “Build, Measure, and Learn” philosophy ●     The value of rooting decisions in data and why companies need to invest in analytics capabilities ●     Experimentation beyond split testing ●     Overcoming challenges in measurement and learning ●     Allocating resources to data analysis and promoting a data-informed mindset ●     The crucial role and challenges of collaboration within a product team Resources Mentioned: ●     Miro (https://miro.com/) ●     Figma (https://www.figma.com/downloads/) ●     Book: Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation (The Strategyzer Series) (https://www.amazon.com/Rapid-Testing-Business-Ideas-Customer/dp/1119551447/ref=sr_1_2?crid=32ZCY4ZR9BKM4&keywords=Testing+Business+Ideas&qid=1700008593&sprefix=testing+business+ideas%2Caps%2C261&sr=8-2) by David J. Bland and Alexander Osterwalder Connect with Partho Ghosh: ●     SecurityScorecard (https://securityscorecard.com/) ●     SecurityScorecard on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/security-scorecard/) ●     SecurityScorecard on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/securityscorecard) ●     SecurityScorecard on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/SecScorecard/) ●     SecurityScorecard on Twitter (https://twitter.com/security_score) ●     Partho Ghosh on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/productpartho/) This Podcast is brought to you by Sopheon   Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Innovation Talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts.   Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/innovation-talks/id1555857396) | TuneIn (https://tunein.com/podcasts/Technology-Podcasts/Innovation-Talks-p1412337/) | GooglePlay (https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ibHVicnJ5LmNvbS9mZWVkcy8xNDY1ODg1LnhtbA) | Stitcher (https://www.stitcher.com/s?fid=614195) | Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/1dX5b8tWI29YbgeMwZF5Uh) | iHeart (https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-innovation-talks-82985745/) | Amazon (https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6e12f112-fdc6-499e-be27-bcdd18505859/innovation-talks)   Be sure to connect with us on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/SopheonCorp/) , Twitter (https://twitter.com/sopheon) , and LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sopheon/) , and share your favorite episodes on social media to help us reach more listeners, like you.   For additional information around new product development or corporate innovation, sign up for Sopheon's newsletter where we share news and industry best practices monthly! The fastest way to do this is to go to sopheon.com (https://www.sopheon.com/) and click here (https://info.sopheon.com/subscribe) .

Bio Dr. Jeff Sutherland is the inventor and co-creator of Scrum, the most widely used Agile framework across the globe.  Originally used for software development, Jeff has also pioneered the application of the framework to multiple industries and disciplines. Today, Scrum is applied to solve complex projects in start-ups and Fortune 100 companies. Scrum companies consistently respond to market demand, to get results and drive performance at speeds they never thought possible. Jeff is committed to developing the Agile leadership practices that allow Scrum to scale across an enterprise.   Dr. Sutherland is the chairman and founder of Scrum Inc. He is a signatory of the Agile manifesto and coauthor of the Scrum Guide and the creator Scrum@Scale. Jeff continues to teach, create new curriculum in the Agile Education Program and share best practices with organizations around the globe. He is the founder of Scrum Inc. and coauthor of, Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time, that has sold over 100,000 copies worldwide.    Social Media:                 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeffsutherland                 Twitter: @jeffsutherland Website: Scrum Inc https://scruminc.com               Books/ Articles: The Scrum Guide by Jeff Sutherland and Ken Schwaber http://www.scrumguides.org/index.html Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time by Jeff Sutherland The Scrum Fieldbook by JJ Sutherland Agile Competitors and Virtual Organisations by Steven Goldman, Roger Nagel and Kenneth Preiss https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agile-Competitors-Virtual-Organizations-Engineering/dp/0471286508 Accelerate: Building Strategic Agility for a Faster Moving World by John P. Kotter Leading Change by John P. Kotter Process Dynamics, Modeling and Control by Babatunde A. Ogunnaike and Harmon W. Ray A Scrum Book: The Spirit of the Game by Jeff Sutherland, James Coplien, Mark den Hollander, et al    Interview Transcript Ula Ojiaku: Hello everyone, my guest today is Dr Jeff Sutherland. He is the inventor and co-creator of Scrum, the most widely used Agile Framework across the globe. Originally used for Software Development, Jeff has also pioneered the application of the framework to multiple industries and disciplines. Today, Scrum is applied to deliver complex projects in startups and Fortune 100 companies. Dr Jeff Sutherland is the Chairman and Founder of Scrum Inc. He is a signatory of the Agile Manifesto and co-author of the Scrum Guide and the creator of Scrum at Scale. Jeff continues to teach, create new curriculum in the Agile education programme and share best practices with organisations around the globe. He has authored and co-authored a number of books which include Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time – which has sold over 100,000 copies worldwide. In this episode, Dr Sutherland shares the backstory of how he and Ken Schwaber developed the Scrum framework. I was pleasantly surprised and proud to learn that one of the inspirations behind the current Scrum framework we now have was the work of Prof Babatunde Ogunnike, given my Nigerian heritage. Dr Sutherland also talked about the importance of Agile Leadership and his current focus on helping organisations fix bad Scrum implementations. I'm sure you'll uncover some useful nuggets in this episode. Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, my conversation with Dr Sutherland.   Ula Ojiaku: Thank you, Dr. Sutherland, for joining us on the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. It's a great pleasure to have you here. Jeff Sutherland: Glad to be here. Looking forward to it. Ula Ojiaku: Fantastic. So could you tell us about yourself? Jeff Sutherland: Well, I grew up in a small town in Massachusetts. And I always felt that I would go to West Point of the United States Military Academy, even at a very young age. And I finally made it there. I spent four years there. And I went on to a program where a certain number of cadets could join the Air Force. And I told the Air Force, if they made me a fighter pilot, I would move into the Air Force, which I did. I spent 11 years as a fighter pilot in the Air Force. And most of the operational aspects of Scrum actually come from that training. My last tour in the Air Force was actually at the US Air Force Academy, I was a professor of mathematics. And I had gone to Stanford University in preparation for that position. And I had worked closely with the, at the time he was Head of the Department of Psychiatry, became the Dean of Stanford who had studied under my father-in-law, he had become an MD under my father-in-law, who was a brilliant physician. And I was working on research papers with him, both at Stanford and at the Air Force Academy. And I asked him for guidance. And I said, I'm thinking about, given all the work we've done in the medical area. Starting in Stanford, I'm thinking maybe becoming a doctor - become an MD. And he strongly recommended against that he said, ‘you'll just go backwards in your career, what you need to do is you build on everything you've done so far. And what you have is your fighter pilot experience, your experience as a statistician, and a mathematician, you want to build on that.' So, I had already started into a doctoral program at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, which was not far from the Air Force Academy. And so, I talked to my department Chairman there who offered me a position in the department running a large research grant, funded by the National Cancer Institute and so, I decided to exit the Airforce and join the medical school. While I was finishing up my doctoral degree. And as soon as my doctorate was finished, I became a professor of Radiology, preventive medicine and biometrics. I was a joint across multiple departments. And I was doing mathematical research on modeling, particularly the human cell on a supercomputer, (to) determine what caused cancer. And to do that required extensive mathematical research as well as the medical research. But at the end of the day, what we found was for any complex adaptive system, like a human cell, or a person or a team, they go through different states. And they're moved from one state to the next by some kind of intervention. And so, if you understand what causes those changes… turned out in the case of cancer, there were four different states that led to a tumor. And in every state, there were certain interventions, and if you knew what they were, you could prevent them and prevent cancer. Or you could even, to my surprise, take a cancer cell and make it go backward into a normal cell. So, this fundamental understanding is the theory behind Scrum. So, while I'm doing this all at the medical school, a large banking company came by and said, ‘you know, over the medical school, you guys have all the knowledge about the technologies; the new technology, we're using (for) banking, you're using for research.' And they said, ‘you guys have all the knowledge but we have all the money and they made me an offer to come join the bank'    Ula Ojiaku: [Laughs]You couldn't refuse Jeff Sutherland: Not just me, it was my family. So, I wind up as Vice President for Advanced Systems, which was effectively was the CTO for 150 banks that we were running across North America.   Each was, you know, a dozen, 50, 100 branches. And of course, we were mainly doing the software, installation and support to run the banking operation, which is largely computer stuff – (this) is what banks run off. And as we're building these systems with hundreds and hundreds of developers, one of the first things I noticed is that all the projects were late. And I look at what they're doing. And they're using this process where they spend, you know, six months defining requirements, and then they put all the requirements into a Gantt chart. And then they, they plan on taking six months to build something, but it's never done. Because as soon as they start testing that they find there's all kinds of things that are broken. So, virtually every single project of the bank is late. So, as a head of technology, one day I walked into the CEO's office and I said, ‘Ron,  have you noticed all your projects are late?' He said, ‘Yes'. He says, ‘Every morning at least five CIOs or CEOs of the banks, they call me up.' And he says, ‘they scream at me.' I said, ‘wow', I said, ‘You know, it's going to get worse, not better. Because these guys are using this, these Gantt Charts.' And I showed him one. And then being a mathematician, I mathematically proved that every project would be late at the bank. And he was stunned. And he said, ‘what should I do?' I said, ‘we need a completely different operating system in the bank.' This is back in 1983. ‘Let's take one business unit. Let's take the one that's losing the most money, okay, the worst business unit' Ula Ojiaku: They have nothing to lose then. Jeff Sutherland: And it was the automated teller division that was rolling out cash machines all over North America. It was a new technology and they had a ton of problems. So, I said, ‘let's take that unit and every one, sales, market, support, installation, we're going to split them down into small teams. And we're going to have Product Marketing come in on Monday with a backlog prioritized by business value. And at the end of the week, on Friday, we're going to deploy to 150 banks.' ‘And I'm going to train them how to land a project every week, just like I trained fighter pilots to land aircraft. I'm going to give them a burndown chart, we're going to throw away the Gantt Chart, I'm going to give them a burndown chart to show them how to land the project.' So, he said, ‘Well, that's gonna be a big headache.' I said, ‘look, the bank needs to be fixed.' He said, ‘Okay, you got it.' So, I took that unit. I told them, ‘I know it's gonna take several weeks,' today we call them sprints, ‘for you to be successful.' Because as new pilots, trained to land, these high-performance jets, they tend to come in high and then they have to come around and try to land again, they over and over, they practice until they can nail it. And it took them six weeks, six sprints to actually nail the end of the week (and) deploy (to) 150 banks. But within six months, it became… it went from the worst business unit in the bank to the most profitable business unit in the bank. And the senior management said, ‘you know, Jeff, here's another 20 million dollars to throw at whatever that thing you're doing  it's the most profitable thing in the bank, we're gonna put more money in that. So that was the first prototype of what we call today Scrum at Scale. Now, I've been CTO of 11, or CTO or CEO of 11 different companies. And for the next 10 years, I prototyped that model and advanced technology teams until in 1993, at a company called Easel Corporation, we found that because of the tooling we were building and selling to customers, we needed to build the tool with what today we call Agile Practice. Ula Ojiaku: Yes Jeff Sutherland: And we need to train the customer to use the tool by having teams do an agile practice. So, in order to train our customers properly in 1993, we actually had to formalize what I've been prototyping for 10 years. And we wrote it down and at the time we were reading this paper, we're going through 1000 papers in the journals I, you know, I had done many new technology. And, in every one of them, you have to read everything that's ever been done so that you can go beyond. You can use everything that's been done, but then you go beyond, okay? Ula Ojiaku: Yeah Jeff Sutherland:  So, it's a tremendous amount of research to launch new technology. And at about the 300th paper in our file, it was a paper out of the Harvard Business Review, which really surprised me, by two Japanese Business School professors, Professors Takeuchi and Nonaka. And in there, they described the best teams in the world. They were lean hardware teams that reminded them of a game of rugby, they said, ‘we're going to call what they're doing Scrum Project Management.' So, I said to the team, ‘we need a name for this thing that we're going to train our customers in, and let's call it Scrum.' And off we went. So, for the next two years, we were actually using Scrum within Easel deploying products. But it was not public, to the general industry. And Easel got acquired by a larger company. And at that time, I felt that this needed to be rolled out into the industry because we had benchmarked it with the best tooling in the world from the leading productivity company, and showed that it was… that (it) went 10 times faster. The quality was 10 times better, which is what you need for a new technology innovation. And so, I felt it was ready to go to the industry as a whole. So, I called up an old friend, Ken Schwaber. And he was a CEO of a traditional Project Management software company, a waterfall (methodology). He sold these methodologies with 303 ring binders, a software package that would make Gantt Charts. So, I said, ‘Ken, I want you to come up and see the Scrum, because it actually works and that stuff you're selling doesn't work – it makes projects late.' And he agreed to come in, he actually came up, he met with me. He stayed for two weeks inside the company, working, observing the Scrum team. And at the end of those two weeks, he said, ‘Jeff, you're right. This really works - it's pretty much the way I run my company.' He said, ‘if I ran my company with a Gantt Chart, we would have been bankrupt a long time ago.' So, I said, ‘well, why don't you sell something to work that works instead of inflicting more damage on the industry?' So, he said so we said ‘okay, how (do) we do it?' I said, ‘it needs to be open source, it needs to be free.' Ken felt we needed to take the engineering practices, many of which appear today in extreme programming… Ula Ojiaku: Yes Jeff Sutherland: …and let Kent Beck (creator of eXtreme Programming, XP) run with them because Kent had been sending me emails, ‘Jeff, send me every...', he had been following the development of Scrum, ‘…send me everything on Scrum, I'm building a new process. I want to use anything that you've done before and not try to reinvent anything.' So, he (Ken Schwaber) said, ‘let Kent take the engineering practices, we'll focus on the team process itself.' And we agreed to write the first paper on this to present at a big conference later that year. And writing that paper was quite interesting. Ken visited DuPont Chemical Corporation, the leading Chemical Process Engineers there that they had hired out of academia to stop chemical plants from blowing up. And when Ken met with them, they said, describe what we were doing in the software domain. They said, ‘you know, well, that process that traditional project management is a Predictive Process Control System. We have that in the chemical industry.' ‘But it's only useful if the variation in the process running is less than 4%.' They said, ‘do you have less than 4% change in requirements while you're building software?' Ken says, ‘no, of course not! It's over 50%!' And they started laughing at him. They said, ‘your project's going to be exploding all over the place.' ‘Because every chemical plant that has blown up has been somebody applying a predictive control system to a system that has high variability. You need to completely retrain industry to use Empirical Process Control, which will stop your projects from blowing up. And they said, here it is, here's the book, they had the standard reference book for Chemical Process Engineering. And in there, there's a chapter on Empirical Process Control, which is based on transparency, inspection, and adapting to what's happening in real time. Okay, so those are the three pillars of Scrum that are today at the base of the Scrum guide. Ula Ojiaku: Do you still remember the title of the book that the chemical engineers recommended to Mr. Schwaber by any chance? Jeff Sutherland: Yeah, so I have a, when I do training, I have a slide that has a picture of the book (Process Dynamics, Modelling and Control). It's written by Ogunnaike and Ray. But that is the root of the change that's gone on in the industry. And so then from 1995, forward, Ken and I started working together, I was still CTO of companies. And I would get him to come in as a consultant and work with me. And we'd implement and enhance the Scrum implementations in company after company after company. Until 2001, of course, Scrum was expanding but Extreme Programming in 2001, was actually the most widely deployed. They were only two widely-deployed agile processes at the time of Scrum and Extreme Programming. Extreme Programming was the biggest. And so, the Agile Manifesto meeting was convened. And it had 17 people there, but three of them were Scrum guys - that had started up Scrum, implemented it in companies, four of them were the founders of Extreme Programming. And the other 10 were experts who have written books on adaptive software development or, you know, lightweight processes, so, industry experts. And we, we talked for a day and everybody explained what they were doing and there was a lot of arguments and debate. And at the end of the day, we agreed because of this book, Agile Competitors, a book about 100 hardware companies - lean hardware companies, that have taken Lean to the next level, by involving the customer in the creation of the product. And we said, ‘we think that we all need to run under one umbrella. And we should call that Agile.' Ula Ojiaku: So, did you actually use the word umbrella in your (statement)? Oh, okay. Jeff Sutherland: Often, people use that right? Ula Ojiaku: Yes, yes Jeff Sutherland: Because at the time, we had Agile and Extreme Programming, and now everybody's trying to come up with their own flavor, right?  All under the same umbrella of ‘Agile'. And that caused the both Scrum and Extreme Programming started to expand even more, and then other kinds of processes also. But Scrum rapidly began to take dominant market share, Scrum today is about 80% of what people call Agile. The reason being, number one, it was a technology that was invented and created to be 10 times better. So, it was a traditional new technology developed based on massive amounts of research. So, it worked. But number two, it also scaled it worked very well for many teams. I mean, there are many companies today like Amazon that have thousands of Scrum teams. And Extreme Programming was really more towards one team. And (reason number) three, you could distribute it across the world. So, some of the highest performing teams are actually dozens of teams or hundreds across multiple continents. And because of those three characteristics, it's (Scrum has) dominated the market. So that brings us to in 2006, I was asked by a Venture Capital firm to help them implement Scrum in their companies, they felt that Scrum was a strategic advantage for investment. And not only that, they figured out that it should be implemented everywhere they implemented it within the venture group, everybody doing Scrum. And their goal was to double their return on investment compared to any other venture capital firm. They pretty much have done that by using Scrum, but then they said, ‘Jeff, you know, we're hiring you as a consultant into our companies. And you're a CTO of a healthcare company right now. And we don't want to build a healthcare company, we want to build a Scrum company.' ‘So, why don't you create Scrum Inc. right here in the venture group? We'll support it, we'll do the administrative support. We'll write you a check - whatever you want.' So, I said, ‘well, I'm not going to take any money because I don't need it. I understand how that works. If the venture capital firm owns your company, then (in the) long term, you're essentially their slave for several years. So, I'm not taking any money. But I will create the company within the venture group. If you provide the administrative support, I'll give you 10% of the revenue and you can do all the finances and all that kind of stuff. So, that's the way Scrum Inc. was started to enable an investment firm to launch or support or invest in many dozens of Scrum companies. Ula Ojiaku: That's awesome Jeff Sutherland: And today, we're on the sixth round of investment at OpenView Venture Partners, which was the company the six round is 525 million. There's a spin out from OpenView that I'm working with, that has around this year, 25 million. And over the years, just co-investing with the venture group I have my own investment fund of 50 million. So, we have $570 million, right this year 2021 that we're putting into Scrum companies. Agile companies, preferably Scrum. Ula Ojiaku: Now when you say Scrum companies is it that they facilitate the (Scrum) training and offer consulting services in Scrum or is it that those companies operate and you know, do what they do by adopting Scrum processes? Jeff Sutherland: Today, Scrum Inc sometimes help some of those companies, but in general, those companies are independently implementing Scrum in their organizations.   Ula Ojiaku: Right Jeff Sutherland: And okay, some of them may come to Scrum training, maybe not. But since Scrum is so widely deployed in the industry, Scrum Inc, is only one of 1000 companies doing Scrum training and that sort of stuff. So, they have a wide variety, wide area of where they can get training and also many of the startups, they already know Scrum before they started the company. They are already Agile. So, what we're interested in is to find the company that understands Agile and has the right team players, particularly at the executive level, to actually execute on it. Ula Ojiaku: No matter what the product or services (are)… Jeff Sutherland: Products or services, a lot of them are software tooling companies, but some of them are way beyond that, right? So, turns out that during COVID… COVID was a watershed. The companies that were not agile, they either went bankrupt, or they were crippled. That meant all the Agile companies that could really do this, started grabbing all the market share. And so, many of our companies, their stock price was headed for the moon during COVID. While the non-agile companies were flatlined, or are going out of business, and so the year of COVID was the best business year in the history of venture capital because of Agility. So, as a result, I'm spending half my time really working, investing in companies, and half of my time, working with Scrum (Inc.) and supporting them, helping them move forward. Ula Ojiaku: That's a very impressive resume and career story really Dr. Sutherland. I have a few questions: as you were speaking, you've called Scrum in this conversation, a process, a tooling, the technology. And you know, so for some hardcore Agilists, some people will say, you know, Agile is all about the mindset for you, what would you say that Scrum is it all of these things you've called it or would it be, you know, or it's something (else)...? Jeff Sutherland: So, certainly the (Agile) mindset is important. But from an investment point of view, if the organization can't deliver real value, quickly, agile is just a bunch of nonsense. And we have a huge amount of nonsense out there. In fact, the Standish group has been publishing for decades. 58% of Agile teams are late over budget with unhappy customers. So, when you get these hardcore Agilist, that are talking about mindset, you have to figure out ‘are they in the 42% that actually can do it or are they in the 58% that are crippled?' My major work with Scrum Inc. today is to try to get to fix the bad Scrum out there. That is the biggest problem in the Agile community. People picking up pieces of things, people picking up ideas, and then putting together and then it doesn't work. That is going to that's going to be really bad for agile in the future. If 58% of it continues not to work. So, what we found, I mean, it was really interesting. Several years ago, the senior executive (of) one of the biggest Japanese companies flew to Boston wanted meet with me. And he said to me, ‘the training is not working in Japan for Scrum.' He said, ‘I spent 10 years with Google, in Silicon Valley. So, I know what it looks like what actually works. And I can tell you, it's not working in Japan, because the training is… it's not the training of the Scrum that is high performing. And in fact, our company is 20% owned by Toyota, and we are going to be the trainers of Toyota. And we cannot deliver the training that's currently being given to Toyota, it will not work, it will not fly. And we want to create a company called Scrum Inc. Japan. And we're a multibillion-dollar company, we're ready to invest whatever it takes to make that happen.' To give them the kind of training that will produce the teams that Takeuchi and Nonaka were writing about in the first paper on Scrum. And as we work with them to figure out what needs to be in that training, we found that the Scrum Guide was only 25% of the training. Another 25% was basic Lean concepts and tooling, right? Because the original Scrum paper was all about Lean hardware companies. So Lean is fundamental to Scrum. If you don't understand it, you can't do it. And then third, there are certain patterns of performance that we've developed over the years, we spent 10 years writing a book on patterns - Scrum patterns. And there's about a dozen of those patterns that have to be implemented to get a high performing team. And finally, scaling to multiple teams. It turns out, right about this time I started working with the Japanese, I was at a conference with the Agile Leadership from Intel. And they told me that they'd introduced Scaling Frameworks into Intel division, some of which had more than 500 Scrum teams in the divisions and the Scaling Frameworks had slowed them down. And it made the senior executives furious and they threw them all out and they said, we did not want to hear the word Scrum at Intel anymore. But you guys need to go twice as fast as you're going now. So, they came to me, they said, ‘we're desperate. We have to go twice as fast. We can't even use the word “Scrum”. What should we do?' And they blamed me, they said, ‘Sutherland you're responsible you caused problem, you need to fix it.' So, I started writing down how to do what today we call Scrum at Scale. And everybody, you know, most of those people in the industry were implementing IT scaling frameworks. They were all upset. ‘Why are you writing down another framework?' Well, it's because those IT frameworks do not enable the organization to show Business Agility, and win in the market. And in the best companies in the world, they're being thrown out. So, I've had to write down how do you add, how do you go to hundreds and thousands of Scrum teams - and never slow down as you're adding more and more teams. You know, every team you add is as fast as the first team when you start. Yeah, that's what Scrum at Scale is all about. So, there's two primary things that I'm focused on today. One is to fix all this bad Scrum. Second is to fix the scaling problem. Because it turns out that if you look at the latest surveys from Forbes magazine, and the Scrum Alliance on successful Agile transformations - I learned recently, that almost every company in the world of any significance is going through an Agile transformation or continuing transformation they'd already started years ago. And 53% of them do not meet management expectations. And the MIT Sloan Business Review did an analysis of what happens if an agile transformation fails, and 67% of those companies go out of business. So, this is becoming really serious, right? To be successful today, if you're competing in any significant way, you have to be agile. And number two, if you try to be agile and fail, you have a 67% chance going out of business. And the failure rate is 53%. So, this is the problem that we're wrestling with. And half of that 53% failure is due to the bad Scrum we talked about, but the other half is due because of the leadership not being Agile. Ula Ojiaku: I was just going to say, as you said something about the leadership not being agile. In my experience, you know, as an agile coach in some organizations whilst the teams would embrace you know, Scrum and embrace Agility - the practices and the processes and everything. There's a limit to, you know, how much they can get done… Jeff Sutherland: Absolutely… Ula Ojiaku: …if the leadership are not on board. So… Jeff Sutherland: …you hit this glass ceiling. So, I've been, you know, giving presentations on Agile Transformations around the world. And I can remember multiple times I've had 300 people in the room, say, and I say okay, ‘How many of you are agile, in Agile transformations or continuing the ones you'd started?' Of course, everybody raises their hand. ‘How many of you have waterfall traditional management that expects you to deliver all the old Gantt Chart reports that we always got, and don't understand what you're doing?' There's 300 people in the room and 297 people raised their hand. I said, ‘you need to give your leadership the book by Professor Kotter called Accelerate.' Professor Kotter is one of the leading change experts of the world. Ula Ojiaku: And he also, yeah, He also wrote ‘Leading Change' as well - the book, yes. Jeff Sutherland: And in that book, he says, if the leadership of the Agile part of the organization is traditional in their mindset and requirements, the Agile Transformation will eventually fail 100% of the time. Ula Ojiaku: Those are sobering statistics in terms of, you know, the failure rate and how much of you know the success hinges on business agility and the leadership being agile as well and taking the time to know and care what it means. Yeah. Jeff Sutherland: And what's happening is that the Agile Leadership today, if you look at some of the companies that have been most successful during COVID, one of them is John Deere Corporation, the biggest farm equipment manufacturer in the world, probably the oldest. Their stock price went up more than Amazon during COVID. And the board of directors gave their Agile Leadership, the Agile Coaches, Scrum Masters, the highest award in the Corporation for producing that result. So that's another reason I'm trying to communicate to Agile people. The success and survival of your company depends on you. You think your management's going to save you but no, if they are old-style people, they are going to run that company out of business. And you need to either save it before it goes out of business or run to another company before bad things happen. Ula Ojiaku: It's impressive that, you know, John Deere being a farm equipment manufacturer… I think they were ahead of the curve you know, (compared to some of their contemporaries in that industry as well) and embraced agile ways of working. Do you know how their Agile Leadership were able to quantify their contributions to the company? Jeff Sutherland: John Deere started to get Agile more than 10 years ago. So, they've been at it a long time. But in recent years, they really started to build… build internally… Agile leadership, you know, based on my work and they started applying that across the company. I mean, the major focus has not been software actually – it's been in other parts of the company. What has to happen to run a company that's building tractors? Well, there's all kinds of things that have to happen, you know - purchasing, there's legal, there's acquiring all the pieces, it's putting them together at the assembly line, you know, software is a piece of it. You know, that's probably the easiest piece to fix with Agile, it's the rest of the company that's the challenge. They have started doing that really well which is reflected in their stock price. Ula Ojiaku: Amazing. So, you said something about you know, you're out to fix a couple of things, the problem with bad Scrum out there. And, you know, the problem with scaling agile. Jeff Sutherland: Right Ula Ojiaku: So, with respect to the first one, the point about bad Scrum, what in your experience would be the root cause of bad Scrum implementations in organizations? Jeff Sutherland: There're about 11 things, that if you fix them, the team will go twice as fast. And it's multiplicative. So, you know, we have extensive data on, you know, really big companies. What's the difference between the fastest team and the slowest teams? The fastest teams are 2000 times faster than the slowest teams. So why is that? Well, first, the team has to be small. The optimal team size is four or five people. If you have a 10-person team, that's going to take at least 50% longer to get anything done. If you go out, look at the team size, you'll see companies have even not only ten-people teams, they have 15 people in a team, 25 people in a team, okay? Those teams are never gonna meet Agile performance. Second, the backlog needs to be really ready in a sense of small, it's clearly understood, it's properly prioritized. So, you need somebody managing that backlog that can get it right, because we have extensive data for multiple case studies showing the team's production doubles immediately. As soon as you get that backlog right. So you go into many companies, you'll see, there's still arguing about what's the top priority, right? Or everything's top priority. That's just gonna create a massive mess. Third, teams are constantly interrupted. You know, the only teams I know that aren't interrupted are people… these teams and defense contractors working on top secret stuff. And they work in a locked room, the door, it says ‘no managers can enter' and they don't get interrupted. But for the rest of us, there's always somebody coming in wanting something else done. And there's a way to manage that using a pattern we call the interrupt buffer. And if you don't have that pattern implemented properly, you're gonna go half as fast. If you're lucky, you might go half as fast. Ula Ojiaku: And what do you say the Scrum Master has a part to play in making sure the interrupt buffer is there and it's enforced? Jeff Sutherland: The scrum master needs to set this all up. Fifth, in high performing teams, we see this pattern called swarming, where multiple people are working on a story together. That increases the process efficiency, which doubles the performance of the team. So, if people are specialists working independently, that team is going to be really slow. So I'm up to number five, there are six more things, but you probably want to go through them. It's very clear, what makes agile teams suck, we know exactly why. And it needs to be fixed. So, I appeal to anyone listening to this help fix bad agile, it's hurting us all. Ula Ojiaku: Thank you for sharing that. Would this be in any of any of your books or in any of your articles that you've written? Jeff Sutherland: Yeah, it's everywhere and (in) everything I've written, but the best summary, it's the red book Scrum … Scrum, The Art of Doing Twice the Work and Half the Time And we've had people pick, pick this up. A CEO in Kenya came to New York to one of my courses, he said, ‘Jeff, I just read your book. And I'm CEO with three new energy startups in Kenya. And my teams implemented that, and they're going… they're doing three times the work and a third of the time. So, your book is too conservative.' He says to me, this guy, he only read the book, he had no training. So, this book is enough to really get off on the right foot. And if you're having problems, it's enough to fix things. In fact, recently before COVID when we could get everybody together, we had an Apple employee in the class and she said, Jeff, do you know why Apple always meet its states? I said, no, you know, Apple is really secretive. They don't tell anybody anything. She says ‘it's because they do Scrum by the book.' So, I said, ‘What book?' She says, ‘The Red Book - Scrum, The Art of Doing Twice the Work and Half the Time - they do it exactly by the book.' So, again, my message to the Agilists out there: Apple is winning. They are the most valuable company in the world. And it's because they do Scrum exactly by that book. So, you probably should read it. Ula Ojiaku: Definitely. So going by the book, would you say there's any wriggle room for adapting to one's context, or is it about you know, going, ‘check- we've done page 123…' Jeff Sutherland: Well, the whole thing about adapting is fundamental to Scrum. So, one of the things I'm constantly doing in my talks, training, is I'm going back to before Scrum and reading a paper from the leading researchers on complex adaptive systems, in which they mathematically proved, you model things on the computer, that systems evolve more quickly, if they have more degrees of freedom, up until you hit a boundary where the system goes into a chaotic state. So, from the very beginning in Scrum, maximizing the freedom and the decision capability of the team has been fundamental. And we talked about this as self-organization. Now, unfortunately, that term has been so misused, misunderstood that we had to take self-organization out of the Scrum guide. And what we inserted was self-managing. And we put next to it goals, okay, the theme is self-managing to achieve a goal. And to make that happen, they need a commitment to do that. And so, this is one of the fundamental things for Agile teams that work that they have that self-managing commitment to achieve a goal. And the teams that are not working, they're fuzzy about that, right. So, we want the maximum degree of adaptation, the thing that they don't want to change is the basic structure that's in the red book, if they change that, it has the control mechanisms to allow the maximum degree of self-organization - not to go off the rails. Ula Ojiaku: Right. Jeff Sutherland: So, we see a lot of Agilists, ‘oh, you know, let's just tweak the framework this way or that way.' And then the self-organization takes a team off the rails, and then they fall into that 58% that can't deliver, they're late, they're over budget, the customers aren't happy. And so, this is the really one of the hardest things to communicate to people. There're certain things that you absolutely have to be disciplined about. You have to be more disciplined to get a great Agile team than in all ways of working. And that discipline is what allows the maximum degree of self-organization and self-determination, right? So, understanding those two things together, you know, it makes it makes people's brain explode, right? It's hard. Ula Ojiaku: But it works. Jeff Sutherland: But it works right.  Ula Ojiaku: You've already mentioned a lot of books in the course of this interview session, and these would be in the show notes. So, would there be anything any final word of advice you'd have for the leaders that would be listening to this podcast in terms of their transformation journey? Jeff Sutherland: So, one of the things we did to Scrum at Scale is that the difference between that and most of the other scaling frameworks is that it's all about the leadership. So, we need an operating leadership team, that is a Scrum team that needs a Scrum Master, a Product Owner, backlog. And its objective is to improve the Agile implementation of the organization. On the prioritization side, we need a leadership team that, led by a Chief Product Owner, that is prioritizing backlog across the organization. So, you know, I've had the Chief Product Owner of Hewlett Packard in my course, he had a $200 billion portfolio. He learned from that class. Says this class is pretty good.' He said, ‘In just one slide I figured out how to get $20 billion more a year with no additional resources'. Just by understanding how to work the framework right? At the $200 billion level. Ula Ojiaku: And you're talking about the Scrum at Scale course, right? Jeff Sutherland: No, this was a product owner course. Product Owner course. He came to it. We're now doing a Scrum at Scale… we're actually doing a Chief Product Owner course. So, a Product Owners at Scale course which it has been really well received by the leading Agile Practitioners. (They) really like that because they need to work more in the large than in the small often. Ula Ojiaku: Definitely. That means this available on the Scrum Inc site? Jeff Sutherland: Yes. Ula Ojiaku: Okay. Jeff Sutherland: So, one of the things I would recommend I would really recommend is the Scrum Field Book. It's a bunch of case studies for organizations, large and small, that have tried to take the whole organization to Scrum. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Sutherland - it's been a great pleasure having you and hopefully we could have a you know, follow up conversation sometime. Jeff Sutherland: Yes. Thanks for inviting me and glad to do it again. Ula Ojiaku: That's all we have for now. Thanks for listening. If you liked this show, do subscribe at www.agileinnovationleaders.com. Also share with friends and leave a review. This would help others find the show. I'd also love to hear from you, so please drop me an email at ula@agileinnovationleaders.com. Till next time, take care and God bless!    

Duncan McLeod, the founder and editor of Techcentral, joins host Bruce Whitfield to examine the interim relief granted to eMedia by the Competition Tribunal in its dispute with MultiChoice regarding sublicensed sports on Openview.   The Constitutional Court's pivotal ruling in favour of Capitec Bank on VAT recovery from irrecoverable loans clarifies the VAT act's interpretation, providing banking sector certainty. This decision's implications will ripple through tax authorities and vendors as they adapt to the court's principles. Charles De Wet, Tax Executive at ENSAfrica explains the nuances…   Watch enthusiast Adriaan Rootman, talks about his love for timepieces and how he makes a living from selling them. Rootman's fascination with watches began as a child witnessing how his father treated his own wristwatch. He details how he was able to turn his passion into a business…See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Duncan McLeod, the Founder and Editor of Techcentral, joins host Bruce Whitfield to examine the interim relief granted to eMedia by the Competition Tribunal in its dispute with MultiChoice regarding sublicensed sports on Openview.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“You have to give without the expectation of return…you can be pointing your time in the right direction, but it is not a give and take. So much of what is asked of you, or where you choose to give, should be done without any expectations.” Liz Christo is a Partner at Stage 2 Capital where she partners with Dan Heck to back early stage entrepreneurs in their journey to build generational software businesses. Liz spent the last 6 years at OpenView Venture Partners. She joined OpenView in 2016 to lead the Expansion Platform and build out the post-investment consulting team, was elevated to Partner and joined the Investment Committee in 2017, and ultimately led the Investment team with a focus on developing the systems, processes and team to identify and win the best expansion stage software deals. Prior to joining OpenView, Liz spent a decade as an operator. Her experience spans sales operations, account management and inside sales. As the AVP of Worldwide Business Development at NetSuite, she launched and scaled NetSuite's BDR team to a 170-person global organization. Liz is an avid reader, amateur chef and spends as much time as she can outside in Vermont with her husband Drew and dog Bear. R.O.G. Takeaway Tips: The treasure of time and how are we investing that treasure?  Be generous with your time and have boundaries.  Invest in self-care. Think about the culture you're creating and what is the value of working here? How are we attracting talent and retaining talent?  Have clarity of your values and how they are celebrated.  Give without the expectation of return. Resources: Liz Christo, Stage 2  Liz Christo of Stage 2 Capital shares how your go-to-market strategy should shift during a recession How to build and scale your RevOps team with Liz Christo Sales Nerds Live! From IC to VC: Getting Ahead as a Woman In Sales Where to find R.O.G. Podcast: R.O.G on YouTube R.O.G on Apple Podcasts R.O.G on Spotify How diverse is your network?  N.D.I. Network Diversity Index What is your Generosity Style?  Generosity Quiz Credits: Liz Christo, Sheep Jam Productions, Host Shannon Cassidy, Bridge Between, Inc. Coming Next: Please join us next week, Episode 176, with Shannon Cassidy for a Generous Leadership Coaching Tip.

Director Christopher Nolan once said:“You have to do something that really excites you. It's the things that you can bring to what you're doing that maybe not everyone else is doing. That's what's going to distinguish the thing.”That's the energy we're taking into this episode of Remarkable. Guided by our guest this week, Jellyfish CMO Kyle Lacy, we're taking marketing lessons from the Oscar-winning director, Christopher Nolan. Together, we talk about mastering each channel, building the day-to-day life of your buyer into your content, and much more.About our guest, Kyle LacyKyle Lacy is CMO at engineering management platform Jellyfish, the pioneer Engineering Management Platform that enables engineering leaders to align engineering work with strategic business objectives. There, he helps engineering leaders translate and maximize the business impact of their teams. Kyle has 17 years of experience in high-growth software. Prior to joining Jellyfish in November 2022, Kyle served as CMO of Lessonly. He has also led marketing at Seismic, OpenView, Salesforce and ExactTarget. He is a published author of three books: Twitter Marketing for Dummies, Branding Yourself, and Social CRM for Dummies. He is a marketing and digital trends speaker, having spoken at marketing and technology industry events around the world on content marketing, collaborative consumption, email marketing, technology trends, and more. He has been recognized as one of Indiana's Forty-under-40 by the Indianapolis Business Journal, Anderson University's Young Alumni of the Year and TechPoint's Young Professional of the Year. But most importantly, he says, he's the father of two boys, an energetic dog, and one too many books on World War II.What B2B Companies Can Learn From Christopher Nolan:Master each channel. Reach a deep understanding of what your audience wants and needs from each channel and create content for it. Kyle says once you've mastered the channels, “you can start creating brand content that is more creative and entertainment oriented and more about the human that's buying the product, not necessarily the product itself.” It's like how Christopher Nolan has mastered fiction with Memento and Inception and non-fiction with Dunkirk and Oppenheimer. He understands what viewers of each genre are looking for and creates content specifically for them.Build the day-to-day life of the buyer into your marketing. Include different storylines and details in your content so that it shows an understanding of your audience and their lived experience. The more your content clicks with them, the more they'll remember your brand when they're ready to buy. Kyle says, “We sell to an engineering leader. There are 500 other things that that engineering leader is dealing with on a day to day basis that might not necessarily pertain to our product, but does lead to exuberance, stress, productivity…the Amazon package being late for his daughter's birthday present. So how do we build more of the day in the life of the buyer into our content? It's the human element that's the most interesting part of marketing.”Quotes*”When you've mastered your craft and you understand the minute technical details that make it enjoyable, whether that's marketing or producing a movie, you can make decisions and take risks because you understand what the impact will be because you've spent so much time obsessing over it. ” - Kyle Lacy*”Christopher Nolan got very lucky that he has a brother that's a very good screenwriter. But he also understands how to surround himself with people that are very good at what they do. And I think part of being a manager - and it doesn't even have to be marketing - is that you have to find the people that truly love their craft and are good at what they do so that the end product, no matter what it is, is the best that you could possibly do.” - Kyle Lacy*”Anybody can tune into a podcast about leadership values. And what does it take to be a great manager? Like there's 500 of them because it's easier to do. It's harder to do what we're doing right now. Y'all prepped for a Christopher Nolan-slash-CMO interview. But it's interesting, right? And that's why people like to be on it. That's why people listen to it. And that's, I think, this idea of illogical marketing, right? Like the more illogical you can be, the more creative it is and the more people enjoy it. It's just hard to grasp for a lot of marketers.” - Kyle Lacy*”I think the nuance Is how you balance the extremely illogical podcast, weird direct mails, lego building sets, all the stuff that I think surprises and delights people with the other things that might not be as fun and creative but drive business value. And that's where I would love to tell you that there's a framework you should follow. But it's, what is enjoyable to the customer? How do you understand that they like it, whether that's an increase in listeners or shares, or you got more people wanting to be interviewed? And then it's that you're hitting the numbers that you put in front of the board, and that's ultimately the value.” - Kyle Lacy*”You kill creativity when you try to apply too much ROI to a project. Doesn't mean you shouldn't track it, doesn't mean there shouldn't be ROI. But you sit down with a creative team and say, ‘Hey, let's think about how many downloads we can get or how much pipeline this thing is going to drive. And they just glaze over. Good creatives glaze over because you're not starting with the most important thing, which is the experience that thing is driving. You can work back, you can figure out the business impact of the thing. And it really depends on the piece of content, right? Like a playbook is going to be different than a podcast.  But I'd like to start with the experience and then back into the business impact because I think it just has more value and people are more creative when you start with the experience.” - Kyle LacyTime Stamps[0:55] Meet Kyle Lacy, CMO at Jellyfish[2:51] Exploring Christopher Nolan's Storytelling Techniques[4:45] The Art of Making Complex Narratives Work[7:31] Christopher Nolan's Unique Approach to Filmmaking[10:14] Applying Nolan's Strategies to B2B Marketing[17:47] Drawing Parallels Between Nolan's Work and Marketing[18:52] Mastering Different Storytelling Formats[21:32] The Human Element in Marketing and Filmmaking[23:51] Exploring the Camera as a Character in Marketing[24:59] The Human Element: The Core of Marketing and Storytelling[26:26] Christopher Nolan's Mastery of Objects in Storytelling[28:04] Marketing Lessons from Nolan's Use of Totems[29:32] The Power of Mascots and Brand Identity[31:33] Creative Choices in Filmmaking: The Case of Bane's Voice[39:17] The Challenge of Balancing Creativity and Business Goals[43:58] Advice for other CMOsLinksConnect with Kyle on LinkedInLearn more about JellyfishAbout Remarkable!Remarkable! is created by the team at Caspian Studios, the premier B2B Podcast-as-a-Service company. Caspian creates both non-fiction and fiction series for B2B companies. If you want a fiction series check out our new offering - The Business Thriller - Hollywood style storytelling for B2B. Learn more at CaspianStudios.com. In today's episode, you heard from Ian Faison (CEO of Caspian Studios) and Meredith Gooderham (Senior Producer). Remarkable was produced this week by Jess Avellino, mixed by Scott Goodrich, and our theme song is “Solomon” by FALAK. Create something remarkable. Rise above the noise.

Today I am thrilled to welcome to the show Steven Forth, Co-Founder and CEO of Ibbaka. At Ibbaka, their focus is on helping SaaS companies set pricing models that align with the true value they deliver, helping drive increased revenue, profitability and customer retention in the process. Through both the Ibbaka Valio Platform and through consulting that is informed by research and data, Steven and his team are helping SaaS companies “achieve greatness” in the subscription economy.And few people are more qualified than Steven to help steer this effort. His  journey as an entrepreneur has seen him lead innovative businesses in both the US and Canada, while he's consulted on go-to-market strategies, value management and pricing for a wide breadth of exciting products and services. He's even been identified as one of the leading experts in B2B pricing by Openview, combining design and decision making frameworks with value management and pricing strategy to help SaaS businesses grow.It's an impressive and exciting mission, and I couldn't be happier to have Steven join us to discuss his takes on the innovation economy, what it takes to succeed in today's market, and what's in store for Ibbaka in 2024.Boast AI accelerates the success of innovative businesses globally with software that integrates financial, payroll, and engineering data into a single platform of R&D intelligence. Visit Boast.ai, sign up for our Blog newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn for weekly #InnovatorsLive sessions and the latest news to fuel your growth. Intro and Outro music provided by Dennis Ma whose mixes you can find on Soundcloud at DJ DennyDex.

This is our Wednesday show, focused on startup and venture capital news that matters. If you are a founder or an investor, this one is for you!Here's the day's rundown:OpenAI fires back at Musk: In the wake of a lawsuit from former backer Elon Musk, OpenAI is bringing receipts and an argument that Musk wanted to run the company's for-profit arm. Hard to argue against something that you wanted to run, yeah?Monzo raises megaround: Monzo's latest round is proof that the worst of the fintech slump is behind us.All eyes on Ema: With $25 million and a launch from stealth, Ema's work to bring AI to the enterprise is notable. But in such a crowded market, are many startups aiming too high on the stack?Accenture buys Udacity: The former unicorn's final resting place is not what it had dreamed of before, but this deal does bring welcome liquidity to at least one venture-backed startup.A climate boost? An upcoming regulatory choice could unlock a massive wave of demand for carbon-tracking startups.And the latest from OpenView: The Information reports that OpenView is returning most of its latest fund to backers. A weird and slightly sad final chapter for the firm.For episode transcripts and more, head to Equity's Simplecast website.Equity drops at 7 a.m. PT every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, so subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. TechCrunch also has a great show on crypto, a show that interviews founders and more! Credits: Equity is hosted by TechCrunch's Alex Wilhelm and Mary Ann Azevedo. We are produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator. We'd also like to thank the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch audio products.

On today's news round up, Alex, Mary Ann and Karyne are looking at:Deals of the Week: Rasa's $30 million Series C had our tongues wagging. The startup is building finservice-focused conversational AI tools. Karyne wanted to talk about the latest round at the intersection of AI and crypto, while Alex wanted to riff on Hippo Harvest's $21 million round for indoor robot farming.Venture capital's year of transition: After OpenView called it quits, and Countdown Capital returned funds to LPs it became clear that venture is evolving. New news that Foundry is not going to raise another fund after its current $500 million vehicle added another name to our roster of venture firms that are taking a different direction in the future.YC's new call for startups: Well-known startup accelerator Y Combinator has a new request for startup list. Given the weight that YC carries in startup-land, we had to dig into what it's proposing. Though we're a little skeptical of the near-term impact of spatial computing, the other updates made good sense to our minds.We'll be back on Monday!For episode transcripts and more, head to Equity's Simplecast website.Equity drops at 7 a.m. PT every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, so subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. TechCrunch also has a great show on crypto, a show that interviews founders and more! Credits: Equity is hosted by TechCrunch's Alex Wilhelm and Mary Ann Azevedo. We are produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator. We'd also like to thank the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch audio products.

Josh Crickmay, a young man on the autism spectrum who had really struggled within the traditional schooling system. Pippa chats to him about his new TV series launching next week on DSTV and Openview.  It's called City Beasts – Cape of Chaos. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Margaret has spent the last decade building scalable, effective marketing programs—and teams—for B2B SaaS companies like OpenView, Appcues, and InVision. She now advises founders on how to do the same. She also co-hosts a weekly podcast called "Don't Say Content" with Devin Bramhall.  Questions and topics we covered include: Why Margaret took the plunge to become a soloprenuer?  Her recommendations for where to upskill as a marketer The characteristics of high-performing marketing teams?  Why marketing teams need to have fun to thrive.  The importance of knowing the differences between “Shared Language” and Institutional Knowledge… The key questions individual contributors should be asking their bosses to get a better understanding of company strategy… The skills Margaret would be learning this year if she had to start her career now… Why founder-led marketing still works, regardless of company size… How to think about “playbooks”… What are the major pitfalls that arise within the Head of Marketing and CEO relationship? Why is it important to have a focus on longer timelines as you move up the management ladder? Why strategy is supposed to take into account triaging “urgent” tasks… And more! Connect with Margaret on Linkedin- https://www.linkedin.com/in/margaret-kelsey-104abba/  Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennysoto/ Here's Margaret's podcast if you want to get even more of her knowledge - https://www.dontsaycontent.com Want to learn the best ways you can produce and grow an effective podcast for your business in 2024? Check out https://www.brandpodcastsummit.com!  On January 24th we're hosting The Brand Podcast Summit, a free-to-attend virtual event designed exclusively for marketers and comms people to succeed in podcasting in 2024. Speakers include Ann Handley, Rand Fishkin, podcast producers from NPR, the BBC, podcast growth pros, AI and automation experts…One attendee also has the chance to get $500's worth of podcast equipment! Shoutout to a previous guest of the show, Harry Morton, for sharing this. Past guests of The People of Digital Marketing include April Dunford, Amanda Goetz, Melissa Rosenthal, Bill Macaitis, Miruna Dragomir, Andrew Capland, Erik Newton, Andy Crestodina, Sarah Bedrick, Michael Wieder, Dan McGaw, Kathleen Booth, Foti Panagiotakopoulos, Tommy Walker, Lea Pica, Maya Grossman, Sara Pion, and more. Music for this podcast comes from www.davidcuttermusic.com

What's the right way to think about pricing your product? This is a difficult challenge for executives to nail down, and can make or break your company—that's why we brought on Kyle Poyar, Operating Partner at OpenView, to distill how to think about pricing the right way. If you're looking for an ERP platform, check out our sponsor, NetSuite: https://netsuite.com/metrics --- SPONSORS: NetSuite provides financial software for all your business needs. More than thirty-six thousand companies have already upgraded to NetSuite, gaining visibility and control over their financials, inventory, HR, eCommerce, and more. If you're looking for an ERP platform ✅ NetSuite: https://netsuite.com/metrics and defer payments of a FULL NetSuite implementation for six months. Tropic is the next-generation Procurement Platform that's helping modern CFOs take control of their budgets and bottom line. By combining approval workflows, supplier management, and pricing benchmarks all in one place, Tropic makes savings opportunities easy to find and act on.

It's time to brush the dust off of an Equity tradition that stretches back into the years: our predictions episode.As we try to do every year, we brought in a number of voices to ensure that we covered a good amount of ground. And, we went back and vetted our predictions from last year as well, in case you wanted to see how off we were!Who took part? Alex Wilhelm, Mary Ann Azevedo, Kirsten Korosec, and Becca Szkutak. The voices you heard the most on the podcast this year! (A big thanks to Theresa Loconsolo for getting the whole gang together!)We bucketed our predictions into a few categories, including startup trends, media, proptech, AI, and transport. Mary Ann expects venture to continue contracting in personnel terms, Alex wanted to talk about AI at the OS level, Becca had notes on media, and more.There are other themes mixed in as well, but find your headphones and get ready for some Hot Takes, yeah?That is a wrap on Equity in 2023. We recorded something around 150 episodes, racked up seven-figures worth of downloads, oodles of streams, and more. But most importantly, we got to spend time with you. Thank you, for being you. Hugs, and more soon!Connect with Equity on X and Threads @EquityPod, and keep up with all of TechCrunch's podcasts @TechCrunchPods on TikTok.For episode transcripts and more, head to Equity's Simplecast website.Equity drops at 7 a.m. PT every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, so subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. TechCrunch also has a great show on crypto, a show that interviews founders and more! Credits: Equity is hosted by Editor in Chief of TechCrunch+ Alex Wilhelm and TechCrunch Senior Reporter Mary Ann Azevedo. We are produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator. We'd also like to thank the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch audio products.

It's stating the obvious but leadership is tricky. You've got to find a balance between creating space for open dialogue while also filtering how much you actually share.Margaret Kelsey, Founder and Marketing Advisor at TatCo, was forced to take a step back and look closely at her team culture when she got some very disheartening feedback during her time at Appcues. She quickly came to realize she'd created a toxic mini culture in her team by expressing frustration with the organization in an unproductive way.In this episode, Margaret shares some of her struggles in aligning her team with the larger company and getting buy-in from higher ups on their strategies. She also discusses how she's learning how to detangle her personal and work identities. Listen to discover how you can become more self-aware as a leader to lead teams effectively and continue being satisfied with your work.In this episode, you'll learn:1. As a leader, you need to be responsible about what messages you filter through to your team2. Every piece of feedback you receive is optional3. It's better to think of your company as a sports team rather than a familyThings to listen for:[11:14] Rethinking hustle culture[15:25] Filtering frustrations and leadership messages to your team[18:22] Navigating the challenge of misaligned values at work[28:49] Detangling your work and personal identity[32:01] Dealing with “Executive thrashing”[37:13] Leaning into your feelings rather than judging them[40:04] Building self-awareness as a leader[41:13] Setting boundaries and choosing what feedback to acceptResources:- Connect with Margaret on LinkedIn- Check out Margaret's podcast- Connect with Andrew on LinkedIn or Twitter- Learn more about Navattic- Learn more about Appcues

“When I heard the news, I was stunned … Absolutely, it is going to be happening in Canada.” CMD Capital's Matt Roberts joins for an emergency podcast on the sudden demise of OpenView Venture Partners, what caused it, and the likelihood that Canadian tech will see similar zombie funds north of the border. Sponsored by Float, Finance on auto-pilot.

Capital formation, aka fundraising, is the unglamorous side of venture capital. Building a strategy and executing it is the reality for both emerging managers and established brands. Our guest today is Ashton Rosin, an Operating Partner and Head of Capital Formation at Lowercarbon Capital.Ashton shares her amazing journey working in the non-profit and NGO space in Washington DC before making a complete 180 and joining the fast-paced world of hedge funds as an IR manager. Ashton explains how her time working in investor relations at a hedge fund opened her eyes to how other asset classes were so far behind when it came to managing investor relationships and how the role at Lower Carbon came to be.Lastly, we get some tips and tricks for other emerging managers struggling to raise capital and how narrowing down your target list of LPs when fundraising is a better approach than spraying and praying. And John Ruffolo is back to dissect the week's news.About Ashton Rosin:Ashton Rosin is an Operating Partner and the Head of Capital Formation at Lowercarbon Capital where she leads the firm's partnerships with existing and future investors.Prior to Lowercarbon, Ashton was the Head of Investor Relations at Obvious Ventures where she led capital-raising efforts and built solutions for relationship management, including the ESG considerations of limited partners. She started her career in financial services leading investor relations at Clocktower Group, helping the firm to conceptualize and scale new offerings across the hedge fund and venture capital landscapes. Before her financial services career, Ashton spent her time advocating for international disability rights through her academic, policy, and direct service pursuits around the world. Ashton holds a BA in International Development and a minor in Disability Studies from UCLA. In this episode, we discuss:(1:22) Cohen and Ruffolo delve into Openview's unexpected pause in new investments and its potential causes.(2:26) Exploring the impact of possible key man clauses and layoffs at Openview.(4:10) Predictions about LPs' reactions to Openview's investment suspension.(5:37) The implications for founders backed by Openview are questioned.(7:18) Skepticism about Elon Musk's involvement in multiple businesses.(10:32) Ruffolo shares his views on Bitcoin and Ethereum's roles in investment.(14:00) Ashton recounts her journey from South Africa to the U.S. and her career shift to venture capital.(19:31) Describing her role evolution at Clocktower Group and learning in asset management.(25:10) Ashton discusses the significance of building strategic investor relationships in a climate-focused fund.(30:15) Challenges faced by emerging managers in diversifying their investor base.(36:49) The importance of personal branding for GPs in capital formation and engaging LPs.(40:56) Strategies for maintaining communication with LPs during fundraising gaps.(43:39) Insights on hiring a dedicated head of capital and the use of placement agents.(48:46) Emphasizing research for targeting prospective LPs and the benefits of networking in capital formation.Fast Favorites:*

Featured Guests: Michael Cortez, partner, YL Ventures | Chase Roberts, principal, Vertex Ventures Half of all 23andMe accounts, nearly 7 million, were affected by a hack back in October, venture investments are growing rapidly in middle America, and Boston venture firm OpenView may be shutting down as reports of large layoffs spread. Read our newsletter: https://venture-daily.beehiiv.com/subscribe

Partho Ghosh is a customer-centered, data-informed product executive and GM who specializes in B2B SaaS, MarTech, product-led growth, and creating measurable product processes that lead to efficient growth and market fit. He is the VP and Product & General Manager at SecurityScoreCard, the global leader in cybersecurity ratings, response, and resilience. He also serves as an advisor for OpenView, through which he advises on product-led growth. Before working at SecurityScoreCard, Partho served as a general manager for Hootsuite. Partho holds a Bachelor's of Business Administration, Business Management from British Columbia Institute of Technology.Partho joins me today to explore the “feature factory” trap and how having a clear product management lifecycle can help avoid it. He emphasizes the importance of future thinking in product management decisions, even when dealing with short-term revenue goals. He outlines his philosophy on product management and the “Build, Measure, Learn” principle. Partho also highlights the value of having a data-informed mindset and offers advice to product managers seeking leadership support. “I've always used ‘feature factory' in a negative connotation, but that might be unfair if you're a scaling start-up. Founders need revenue growth, profitability, and to make ends meet.” - Partho Ghosh This week on Innovation Talks:●     Partho's background as a business analyst, his transition into product management, and diving into B2B SaaS●     The challenges of testing and validating the effectiveness of a free-to-sales motion in the self-serve space●     The importance of future-thinking in product management decisions●     Navigating organizational changes and cultural shifts●     Careers as marathons and the evolving nature of the professional journey●     The need for continuous learning in product management●     Embracing generative AI and how customer expectations around AI have changed●     The transformative nature of technological advancements●     Partho's product development process and lifecycle●     The “Build, Measure, and Learn” philosophy●     The value of rooting decisions in data and why companies need to invest in analytics capabilities●     Experimentation beyond split testing●     Overcoming challenges in measurement and learning●     Allocating resources to data analysis and promoting a data-informed mindset●     The crucial role and challenges of collaboration within a product team Resources Mentioned:●     Miro●     Figma●     Book: Testing Business Ideas: A Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation (The Strategyzer Series) by David J. Bland and Alexander Osterwalder Connect with Partho Ghosh:●     SecurityScorecard●     SecurityScorecard on LinkedIn●     SecurityScorecard on Instagram●     SecurityScorecard on Facebook●     SecurityScorecard on Twitter●     Partho Ghosh on LinkedIn This Podcast is brought to you by Sopheon Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Innovation Talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts | TuneIn | GooglePlay | Stitcher | Spotify | iHeart | Amazon Be sure to connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and share your favorite episodes on social media to help us reach more listeners, like you. For additional information around new product development or corporate innovation, sign up for Sopheon's newsletter where we share news and industry best practices monthly! The fastest way to do this is to go to sopheon.com and click here.

Rachel Dines, Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss why creating a cloud-native observability strategy is so critical, and the challenges that come with both defining and accomplishing that strategy to fit your current and future observability needs. Rachel explains how Chronosphere is taking an open-source approach to observability, and why it's more important than ever to acknowledge that the stakes and costs are much higher when it comes to observability in the cloud. About RachelRachel leads product and technical marketing for Chronosphere. Previously, Rachel wore lots of marketing hats at CloudHealth (acquired by VMware), and before that, she led product marketing for cloud-integrated storage at NetApp. She also spent many years as an analyst at Forrester Research. Outside of work, Rachel tries to keep up with her young son and hyper-active dog, and when she has time, enjoys crafting and eating out at local restaurants in Boston where she's based.Links Referenced: Chronosphere: https://chronosphere.io/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rdines/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today's featured guest episode is brought to us by our friends at Chronosphere, and they have also brought us Rachel Dines, their Head of Product and Solutions Marketing. Rachel, great to talk to you again.Rachel: Hi, Corey. Yeah, great to talk to you, too.Corey: Watching your trajectory has been really interesting, just because starting off, when we first started, I guess, learning who each other were, you were working at CloudHealth which has since become VMware. And I was trying to figure out, huh, the cloud runs on money. How about that? It feels like it was a thousand years ago, but neither one of us is quite that old.Rachel: It does feel like several lifetimes ago. You were just this snarky guy with a few followers on Twitter, and I was trying to figure out what you were doing mucking around with my customers [laugh]. Then [laugh] we kind of both figured out what we're doing, right?Corey: So, speaking of that iterative process, today, you are at Chronosphere, which is an observability company. We would have called it a monitoring company five years ago, but now that's become an insult after the observability war dust has settled. So, I want to talk to you about something that I've been kicking around for a while because I feel like there's a gap somewhere. Let's say that I build a crappy web app—because all of my web apps inherently are crappy—and it makes money through some mystical form of alchemy. And I have a bunch of users, and I eventually realize, huh, I should probably have a better observability story than waiting for the phone to ring and a customer telling me it's broken.So, I start instrumenting various aspects of it that seem to make sense. Maybe I go too low level, like looking at all the discs on every server to tell me if they're getting full or not, like their ancient servers. Maybe I just have a Pingdom equivalent of is the website up enough to respond to a packet? And as I wind up experiencing different failure modes and getting yelled at by different constituencies—in my own career trajectory, my own boss—you start instrumenting for all those different kinds of breakages, you start aggregating the logs somewhere and the volume gets bigger and bigger with time. But it feels like it's sort of a reactive process as you stumble through that entire environment.And I know it's not just me because I've seen this unfold in similar ways in a bunch of different companies. It feels to me, very strongly, like it is something that happens to you, rather than something you set about from day one with a strategy in mind. What's your take on an effective way to think about strategy when it comes to observability?Rachel: You just nailed it. That's exactly the kind of progression that we so often see. And that's what I really was excited to talk with you about today—Corey: Oh, thank God. I was worried for a minute there that you'd be like, “What the hell are you talking about? Are you just, like, some sort of crap engineer?” And, “Yes, but it's mean of you to say it.” But yeah, what I'm trying to figure out is there some magic that I just was never connecting? Because it always feels like you're in trouble because the site's always broken, and oh, like, if the disk fills up, yeah, oh, now we're going to start monitoring to make sure the disk doesn't fill up. Then you wind up getting barraged with alerts, and no one wins, and it's an uncomfortable period of time.Rachel: Uncomfortable period of time. That is one very polite way to put it. I mean, I will say, it is very rare to find a company that actually sits down and thinks, “This is our observability strategy. This is what we want to get out of observability.” Like, you can think about a strategy and, like, the old school sense, and you know, as an industry analyst, so I'm going to have to go back to, like, my roots at Forrester with thinking about, like, the people, and the process, and the technology.But really what the bigger component here is like, what's the business impact? What do you want to get out of your observability platform? What are you trying to achieve? And a lot of the time, people have thought, “Oh, observability strategy. Great, I'm just going to buy a tool. That's it. Like, that's my strategy.”And I hate to bring it to you, but buying tools is not a strategy. I'm not going to say, like, buy this tool. I'm not even going to say, “Buy Chronosphere.” That's not a strategy. Well, you should buy Chronosphere. But that's not a strategy.Corey: Of course. I'm going to throw the money by the wheelbarrow at various observability vendors, and hope it solves my problem. But if that solved the problem—I've got to be direct—I've never spoken to those customers.Rachel: Exactly. I mean, that's why this space is such a great one to come in and be very disruptive in. And I think, back in the days when we were running in data centers, maybe even before virtual machines, you could probably get away with not having a monitoring strategy—I'm not going to call it observability; it's not we call the back then—you could get away with not having a strategy because what was the worst that was going to happen, right? It wasn't like there was a finite amount that your monitoring bill could be, there was a finite amount that your customer impact could be. Like, you're paying the penny slots, right?We're not on the penny slots anymore. We're in the $50 craps table, and it's Las Vegas, and if you lose the game, you're going to have to run down the street without your shirt. Like, the game and the stakes have changed, and we're still pretending like we're playing penny slots, and we're not anymore.Corey: That's a good way of framing it. I mean, I still remember some of my biggest observability challenges were building highly available rsyslog clusters so that you could bounce a member and not lose any log data because some of that was transactionally important. And we've gone beyond that to a stupendous degree, but it still feels like you don't wind up building this into the application from day one. More's the pity because if you did, and did that intelligently, that opens up a whole world of possibilities. I dream of that changing where one day, whenever you start to build an app, oh, and we just push the button and automatically instrument with OTel, so you instrument the thing once everywhere it makes sense to do it, and then you can do your vendor selection and what you said were decisions later in time. But these days, we're not there.Rachel: Well, I mean, and there's also the question of just the legacy environment and the tech debt. Even if you wanted to, the—actually I was having a beer yesterday with a friend who's a VP of Engineering, and he's got his new environment that they're building with observability instrumented from the start. How beautiful. They've got OTel, they're going to have tracing. And then he's got his legacy environment, which is a hot mess.So, you know, there's always going to be this bridge of the old and the new. But this was where it comes back to no matter where you're at, you can stop and think, like, “What are we doing and why?” What is the cost of this? And not just cost in dollars, which I know you and I could talk about very deeply for a long period of time, but like, the opportunity costs. Developers are working on stuff that they could be working on something that's more valuable.Or like the cost of making people work round the clock, trying to troubleshoot issues when there could be an easier way. So, I think it's like stepping back and thinking about cost in terms of dollar sense, time, opportunity, and then also impact, and starting to make some decisions about what you're going to do in the future that's different. Once again, you might be stuck with some legacy stuff that you can't really change that much, but [laugh] you got to be realistic about where you're at.Corey: I think that that is a… it's a hard lesson to be very direct, in that, companies need to learn it the hard way, for better or worse. Honestly, this is one of the things that I always noticed in startup land, where you had a whole bunch of, frankly, relatively early-career engineers in their early-20s, if not younger. But then the ops person was always significantly older because the thing you actually want to hear from your ops person, regardless of how you slice it, is, “Oh, yeah, I've seen this kind of problem before. Here's how we fixed it.” Or even better, “Here's the thing we're doing, and I know how that's going to become a problem. Let's fix it before it does.” It's the, “What are you buying by bringing that person in?” “Experience, mostly.”Rachel: Yeah, that's an interesting point you make, and it kind of leads me down this little bit of a side note, but a really interesting antipattern that I've been seeing in a lot of companies is that more seasoned ops person, they're the one who everyone calls when something goes wrong. Like, they're the one who, like, “Oh, my God, I don't know how to fix it. This is a big hairy problem,” I call that one ops person, or I call that very experienced person. That experience person then becomes this huge bottleneck into solving problems that people don't really—they might even be the only one who knows how to use the observability tool. So, if we can't find a way to democratize our observability tooling a little bit more so, like, just day-to-day engineers, like, more junior engineers, newer ones, people who are still ramping, can actually use the tool and be successful, we're going to have a big problem when these ops people walk out the door, maybe they retire, maybe they just get sick of it. We have these massive bottlenecks in organizations, whether it's ops or DevOps or whatever, that I see often exacerbated by observability tools. Just a side note.Corey: Yeah. On some level, it feels like a lot of these things can be fixed with tooling. And I'm not going to say that tools aren't important. You ever tried to implement observability by hand? It doesn't work. There have to be computers somewhere in the loop, if nothing else.And then it just seems to devolve into a giant swamp of different companies, doing different things, taking different approaches. And, on some level, whenever you read the marketing or hear the stories any of these companies tell you also to normalize it from translating from whatever marketing language they've got into something that comports with the reality of your own environment and seeing if they align. And that feels like it is so much easier said than done.Rachel: This is a noisy space, that is for sure. And you know, I think we could go out to ten people right now and ask those ten people to define observability, and we would come back with ten different definitions. And then if you throw a marketing person in the mix, right—guilty as charged, and I know you're a marketing person, too, Corey, so you got to take some of the blame—it gets mucky, right? But like I said a minute ago, the answer is not tools. Tools can be part of the strategy, but if you're just thinking, “I'm going to buy a tool and that's going to solve my problem,” you're going to end up like this company I was talking to recently that has 25 different observability tools.And not only do they have 25 different observability tools, what's worse is they have 25 different definitions for their SLOs and 25 different names for the same metric. And to be honest, it's just a mess. I'm not saying, like, go be Draconian and, you know, tell all the engineers, like, “You can only use this tool [unintelligible 00:10:34] use that tool,” you got to figure out this kind of balance of, like, hands-on, hands-off, you know? How much do you centralize, how much do you push and standardize? Otherwise, you end up with just a huge mess.Corey: On some level, it feels like it was easier back in the days of building it yourself with Nagios because there's only one answer, and it sucks, unless you want to start going down the world of HP OpenView. Which step one: hire a 50-person team to manage OpenView. Okay, that's not going to solve my problem either. So, let's get a little more specific. How does Chronosphere approach this?Because historically, when I've spoken to folks at Chronosphere, there isn't that much of a day one story, in that, “I'm going to build a crappy web app. Let's instrument it for Chronosphere.” There's a certain, “You must be at least this tall to ride,” implicit expectation built into the product just based upon its origins. And I'm not saying that doesn't make sense, but it also means there's really no such thing as a greenfield build out for you either.Rachel: Well, yes and no. I mean, I think there's no green fields out there because everyone's doing something for observability, or monitoring, or whatever you want to call it, right? Whether they've got Nagios, whether they've got the Dog, whether they've got something else in there, they have some way of introspecting their systems, right? So, one of the things that Chronosphere is built on, that I actually think this is part of something—a way you might think about building out an observability strategy as well, is this concept of control and open-source compatibility. So, we only can collect data via open-source standards. You have to send this data via Prometheus, via Open Telemetry, it could be older standards, like, you know, statsd, Graphite, but we don't have any proprietary instrumentation.And if I was making a recommendation to somebody building out their observability strategy right now, I would say open, open, open, all day long because that gives you a huge amount of flexibility in the future. Because guess what? You know, you might put together an observability strategy that seems like it makes sense for right now—actually, I was talking to a B2B SaaS company that told me that they made a choice a couple of years ago on an observability tool. It seemed like the right choice at the time. They were growing so fast, they very quickly realized it was a terrible choice.But now, it's going to be really hard for them to migrate because it's all based on proprietary standards. Now, of course, a few years ago, they didn't have the luxury of Open Telemetry and all of these, but now that we have this, we can use these to kind of future-proof our mistakes. So, that's one big area that, once again, both my recommendation and happens to be our approach at Chronosphere.Corey: I think that that's a fair way of viewing it. It's a constant challenge, too, just because increasingly—you mentioned the Dog earlier, for example—I will say that for years, I have been asked whether or not at The Duckbill Group, we look at Azure bills or GCP bills. Nope, we are pure AWS. Recently, we started to hear that same inquiry specifically around Datadog, to the point where it has become a board-level concern at very large companies. And that is a challenge, on some level.I don't deviate from my typical path of I fix AWS bills, and that's enough impossible problems for one lifetime, but there is a strong sense of you want to record as much as possible for a variety of excellent reasons, but there's an implicit cost to doing that, and in many cases, the cost of observability becomes a massive contributor to the overall cost. Netflix has said in talks before that they're effectively an observability company that also happens to stream movies, just because it takes so much effort, engineering, and raw computing resources in order to get that data do something actionable with it. It's a hard problem.Rachel: It's a huge problem, and it's a big part of why I work at Chronosphere, to be honest. Because when I was—you know, towards the tail end at my previous company in cloud cost management, I had a lot of customers coming to me saying, “Hey, when are you going to tackle our Dog or our New Relic or whatever?” Similar to the experience you're having now, Corey, this was happening to me three, four years ago. And I noticed that there is definitely a correlation between people who are having these really big challenges with their observability bills and people that were adopting, like Kubernetes, and microservices and cloud-native. And it was around that time that I met the Chronosphere team, which is exactly what we do, right? We focus on observability for these cloud-native environments where observability data just goes, like, wild.We see 10X 20X as much observability data and that's what's driving up these costs. And yeah, it is becoming a board-level concern. I mean, and coming back to the concept of strategy, like if observability is the second or third most expensive item in your engineering bill—like, obviously, cloud infrastructure, number one—number two and number three is probably observability. How can you not have a strategy for that? How can this be something the board asks you about, and you're like, “What are we trying to get out of this? What's our purpose?” “Uhhhh… troubleshooting?”Corey: Right because it turns into business metrics as well. It's not just about is the site up or not. There's a—like, one of the things that always drove me nuts not just in the observability space, but even in cloud costing is where, okay, your costs have gone up this week so you get a frowny face, or it's in red, like traffic light coloring. Cool, but for a lot of architectures and a lot of customers, that's because you're doing a lot more volume. That translates directly into increased revenues, increased things you care about. You don't have the position or the context to say, “That's good,” or, “That's bad.” It simply is. And you can start deriving business insight from that. And I think that is the real observability story that I think has largely gone untold at tech conferences, at least.Rachel: It's so right. I mean, spending more on something is not inherently bad if you're getting more value out of it. And it definitely a challenge on the cloud cost management side. “My costs are going up, but my revenue is going up a lot faster, so I'm okay.” And I think some of the plays, like you know, we put observability in this box of, like, it's for low-level troubleshooting, but really, if you step back and think about it, there's a lot of larger, bigger picture initiatives that observability can contribute to in an org, like digital transformation. I know that's a buzzword, but, like that is a legit thing that a lot of CTOs are out there thinking about. Like, how do we, you know, get out of the tech debt world, and how do we get into cloud-native?Maybe it's developer efficiency. God, there's a lot of people talking about developer efficiency. Last week at KubeCon, that was one of the big, big topics. I mean, and yeah, what [laugh] what about cost savings? To me, we've put observability in a smaller box, and it needs to bust out.And I see this also in our customer base, you know? Customers like DoorDash use observability, not just to look at their infrastructure and their applications, but also look at their business. At any given minute, they know how many Dashers are on the road, how many orders are being placed, cut by geos, down to the—actually down to the second, and they can use that to make decisions.Corey: This is one of those things that I always found a little strange coming from the world of running systems in large [unintelligible 00:17:28] environments to fixing AWS bills. There's nothing that even resembles a fast, reactive response in the world of AWS billing. You wind up with a runaway bill, they're going to resolve that over a period of weeks, on Seattle business hours. If you wind up spinning something up that creates a whole bunch of very expensive drivers behind your bill, it's going to take three days, in most cases, before that starts showing up anywhere that you can reasonably expect to get at it. The idea of near real time is a lie unless you want to start instrumenting everything that you're doing to trap the calls and then run cost extrapolation from there. That's hard to do.Observability is a very different story, where latencies start to matter, where being able to get leading indicators of certain events—be a technical or business—start to be very important. But it seems like it's so hard to wind up getting there from where most people are. Because I know we like to talk dismissively about the past, but let's face it, conference-ware is the stuff we're the proudest of. The reality is the burning dumpster of regret in our data centers that still also drives giant piles of revenue, so you can't turn it off, nor would you want to, but you feel bad about it as a result. It just feels like it's such a big leap.Rachel: It is a big leap. And I think the very first step I would say is trying to get to this point of clarity and being honest with yourself about where you're at and where you want to be. And sometimes not making a choice is a choice, right, as well. So, sticking with the status quo is making a choice. And so, like, as we get into things like the holiday season right now, and I know there's going to be people that are on-call 24/7 during the holidays, potentially, to keep something that's just duct-taped together barely up and running, I'm making a choice; you're make a choice to do that. So, I think that's like the first step is the kind of… at least acknowledging where you're at, where you want to be, and if you're not going to make a change, just understanding the cost and being realistic about it.Corey: Yeah, being realistic, I think, is one of the hardest challenges because it's easy to wind up going for the aspirational story of, “In the future when everything's great.” Like, “Okay, cool. I appreciate the need to plant that flag on the hill somewhere. What's the next step? What can we get done by the end of this week that materially improves us from where we started the week?” And I think that with the aspirational conference-ware stories, it's hard to break that down into things that are actionable, that don't feel like they're going to be an interminable slog across your entire existing environment.Rachel: No, I get it. And for things like, you know, instrumenting and adding tracing and adding OTEL, a lot of the time, the return that you get on that investment is… it's not quite like, “I put a dollar in, I get a dollar out,” I mean, something like tracing, you can't get to 60% instrumentation and get 60% of the value. You need to be able to get to, like, 80, 90%, and then you'll get a huge amount of value. So, it's sort of like you're trudging up this hill, you're charging up this hill, and then finally you get to the plateau, and it's beautiful. But that hill is steep, and it's long, and it's not pretty. And I don't know what to say other than there's a plateau near the top. And those companies that do this well really get a ton of value out of it. And that's the dream, that we want to help customers get up that hill. But yeah, I'm not going to lie, the hill can be steep.Corey: One thing that I find interesting is there's almost a bimodal distribution in companies that I talk to. On the one side, you have companies like, I don't know, a Chronosphere is a good example of this. Presumably you have a cloud bill somewhere and the majority of your cloud spend will be on what amounts to a single application, probably in your case called, I don't know, Chronosphere. It shares the name of the company. The other side of that distribution is the large enterprise conglomerates where they're spending, I don't know, $400 million a year on cloud, but their largest workload is 3 million bucks, and it's just a very long tail of a whole bunch of different workloads, applications, teams, et cetera.So, what I'm curious about from the Chronosphere perspective—or the product you have, not the ‘you' in this metaphor, which gets confusing—is, it feels easier to instrument a Chronosphere-like company that has a primary workload that is the massive driver of most things and get that instrumented and start getting an observability story around that than it does to try and go to a giant company and, “Okay, 1500 teams need to all implement this thing that are all going in different directions.” How do you see it playing out among your customer base, if that bimodal distribution holds up in your world?Rachel: It does and it doesn't. So, first of all, for a lot of our customers, we often start with metrics. And starting with metrics means Prometheus. And Prometheus has hundreds of exporters. It is basically built into Kubernetes. So, if you're running Kubernetes, getting Prometheus metrics out, actually not a very big lift. So, we find that we start with Prometheus, we start with getting metrics in, and we can get a lot—I mean, customers—we have a lot of customers that use us just for metrics, and they get a massive amount of value.But then once they're ready, they can start instrumenting for OTEL and start getting traces in as well. And yeah, in large organizations, it does tend to be one team, one application, one service, one department that kind of goes at it and gets all that instrumented. But I've even seen very large organizations, when they get their act together and decide, like, “No, we're doing this,” they can get OTel instrumented fairly quickly. So, I guess it's, like, a lining up. It's more of a people issue than a technical issue a lot of the time.Like, getting everyone lined up and making sure that like, yes, we all agree. We're on board. We're going to do this. But it's usually, like, it's a start small, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. We also just recently added the ability to ingest events, which is actually a really beautiful thing, and it's very, very straightforward.It basically just—we connect to your existing other DevOps tools, so whether it's, like, a Buildkite, or a GitHub, or, like, a LaunchDarkly, and then anytime something happens in one of those tools, that gets registered as an event in Chronosphere. And then we overlay those events over your alerts. So, when an alert fires, then first thing I do is I go look at the alert page, and it says, “Hey, someone did a deploy five minutes ago,” or, “There was a feature flag flipped three minutes ago,” I solved the problem right then. I don't think of this as—there's not an all or nothing nature to any of this stuff. Yes, tracing is a little bit of a—you know, like I said, it's one of those things where you have to make a lot of investment before you get a big reward, but that's not the case in all areas of observability.Corey: Yeah. I would agree. Do you find that there's a significant easy, early win when customers start adopting Chronosphere? Because one of the problems that I've found, especially with things that are holistic, and as you talk about tracing, well, you need to get to a certain point of coverage before you see value. But human psychology being what it is, you kind of want to be able to demonstrate, oh, see, the Meantime To Dopamine needs to come down, to borrow an old phrase. Do you find that some of there's some easy wins that start to help people to see the light? Because otherwise, it just feels like a whole bunch of work for no discernible benefit to them.Rachel: Yeah, at least for the Chronosphere customer base, one of the areas where we're seeing a lot of traction this year is in optimizing the costs, like, coming back to the cost story of their overall observability bill. So, we have this concept of the control plane in our product where all the data that we ingest hits the control plane. At that point, that customer can look at the data, analyze it, and decide this is useful, this is not useful. And actually, not just decide that, but we show them what's useful, what's not useful. What's being used, what's high cardinality, but—and high cost, but maybe no one's touched it.And then we can make decisions around aggregating it, dropping it, combining it, doing all sorts of fancy things, changing the—you know, downsampling it. We can do this, on the trace side, we can do it both head based and tail based. On the metrics side, it's as it hits the control plane and then streams out. And then they only pay for the data that we store. So typically, customers are—they come on board and immediately reduce their observability dataset by 60%. Like, that's just straight up, that's the average.And we've seen some customers get really aggressive, get up to, like, in the 90s, where they realize we're only using 10% of this data. Let's get rid of the rest of it. We're not going to pay for it. So, paying a lot less helps in a lot of ways. It also helps companies get more coverage of their observability. It also helps customers get more coverage of their overall stack. So, I was talking recently with an autonomous vehicle driving company that recently came to us from the Dog, and they had made some really tough choices and were no longer monitoring their pre-prod environments at all because they just couldn't afford to do it anymore. It's like, well, now they can, and we're still saving the money.Corey: I think that there's also the downstream effect of the money saving to that, for example, I don't fix observability bills directly. But, “Huh, why is your CloudWatch bill through the roof?” Or data egress charges in some cases? It's oh because your observability vendor is pounding the crap out of those endpoints and pulling all your log data across the internet, et cetera. And that tends to mean, oh, yeah, it's not just the first-order effect; it's the second and third and fourth-order effects this winds up having. It becomes almost a holistic challenge. I think that trying to put observability in its own bucket, on some level—when you're looking at it from a cost perspective—starts to be a, I guess, a structure that makes less and less sense in the fullness of time.Rachel: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that just looking at the bill from your vendor is one very small piece of the overall cost you're incurring. I mean, all of the things you mentioned, the egress, the CloudWatch, the other services, it's impacting, what about the people?Corey: Yeah, it sure is great that your team works for free.Rachel: [laugh]. Exactly, right? I know, and it makes me think a little bit about that viral story about that particular company with a certain vendor that had a $65 million per year observability bill. And that impacted not just them, but, like, it showed up in both vendors' financial filings. Like, how did you get there? How did you get to that point? And I think this all comes back to the value in the ROI equation. Yes, we can all sit in our armchairs and be like, “Well, that was dumb,” but I know there are very smart people out there that just got into a bad situation by kicking the can down the road on not thinking about the strategy.Corey: Absolutely. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me about, I guess, the bigger picture questions rather than the nuts and bolts of a product. I like understanding the overall view that drives a lot of these things. I don't feel I get to have enough of those conversations some weeks, so thank you for humoring me. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go?Rachel: So, they should definitely check out the Chronosphere website. Brand new beautiful spankin' new website: chronosphere.io. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm not really on the Twitters so much anymore, but I'd love to chat with you on LinkedIn and hear what you have to say.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to all of that in the [show notes 00:28:26]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. It's appreciated.Rachel: Thank you, Corey. Always fun.Corey: Rachel Dines, Head of Product and Solutions Marketing at Chronosphere. This has been a featured guest episode brought to us by our friends at Chronosphere, and I'm Corey Quinn. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry and insulting comment that I will one day read once I finished building my highly available rsyslog system to consume it with.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business, and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike analyze the recently published OpenView Partners 2023 Benchmark Report which was conducted in partnership with Paddle. Interesting insights into the declining growth rates and increased customer churn trends.Key metrics and the associated benchmarks segmented by company ARR analyzed include:Growth RateRule of 40Net Revenue RetentionGross Revenue RetentionCAC Payback PeriodHeadcountRevenue/FTEThe OpenView 2023 Benchmark Report is at: openviewpartners.com/2023-saas-benchmarks-report/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Lots of succesfull companies were built on OK customers, an OK team and with an OK infrastructure. Today, that's not enough.We cover the latest benchmarks from OpenView, and discuss what it means.(00:00) - Introduction (01:49) - New benchmarks out - Execution is the problem (05:00) - CAC:PB and ARR per FTE (07:33) - Easy days are gone (14:57) - Churn and burn (22:38) - Teh People (30:32) - Infrastructure

SummaryDive into the SaaS world with Sean as he unpacks OpenView's latest report. Discover why growth rates are plummeting and which outliers are defying the trend. Is it all about AI and vertical specialization? Tune in for insights on the evolving SaaS landscape amidst a shifting economic climate.Key Points SaaS growth rates decline sharply Economic climate impacts SaaS Outliers defy downward trends AI-native SaaS sees success Specialization boosts SaaS growth Resourceshttps://openviewpartners.com/2023-saas-benchmarks-reportQuotes "Some, I would say a third is not all that uncommon based on the data that I'm looking at. Some of them are down by half or more than half, which is a pretty dramatic fall off from where we were previously just a year ago." "There's been a pretty dramatic shift in the macro economic climate that's predominantly been the catalyst of which I would say has been the steep increase in interest rates." "However, the remaining category, the outliers that I mentioned that makes up the balance, which is about 27%, those companies are growing faster than last year." "Now in the report, and I'm gonna dive into this in greater detail in future episodes, but they categorize anyone that's falling into this category that's growing faster than last year as, which probably won't become a surprise to many those companies that are AI native." "So the more specialized your SaaS product is, the higher growth rate those companies have seen as well." Free Email Course How to Build a Profitable AI-Powered B2B SaaS Business for Less Than $750 - https://nxtstep.io/b2bsaasConnect with Sean Subscribe to my YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@nxtstepsean Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-boyce/ Notes generated by Podcast Show Notes  (podcastshownotes.ai)

On this week's episode of Topline, we cover a range of subjects. We give 2024 market predictions as core CPI is the lowest it has been since March 2021, gain clarity on areas like CAC payback averages with data from OpenView, and share our thoughts on OpenAI's Demo Day. Want more TOPLINE? Read the recaps.  

In this episode of Confessions of a B2B Marketer, Tom Hunt interviews Margaret Kelsey of TatCo as she discusses how marketers can leverage their understanding of human behavior to become effective managers.

What's the right way to think about pricing your product? This is a difficult challenge for executives to nail down, and can make or break your company—that's why we brought on Kyle Poyar, Operating Partner at OpenView, to distill how to think about pricing the right way. If you're looking for an ERP platform, check out our sponsor, NetSuite: https://netsuite.com/metrics --- SPONSORS: NetSuite provides financial software for all your business needs. More than thirty-six thousand companies have already upgraded to NetSuite, gaining visibility and control over their financials, inventory, HR, eCommerce, and more. If you're looking for an ERP platform ✅ NetSuite: https://netsuite.com/metrics and defer payments of a FULL NetSuite implementation for six months. Tropic is the next-generation Procurement Platform that's helping modern CFOs take control of their budgets and bottom line. By combining approval workflows, supplier management, and pricing benchmarks all in one place, Tropic makes savings opportunities easy to find and act on.

There's a growth lever you should know about: Pricing.We geeked out on pricing with Kyle Poyar, Operating Partner at OpenView to lay out how you can grow through pricing.In the episode, we got into

In this bonus episode, Bonnie Evangelista discusses the inefficiencies in government contracting and how we can leverage the power of AI and LLMs to reduce workflows from 3 months to 30 minutes. She shares insights on defining requirements, using the Tradewinds Solutions Marketplace, and getting clear on your value proposition. Tune in to this special crossover episode with Andrew Camel, VP of OpenView and host of Closing the Loop podcast, as they dive into the challenges of procurement workflows and the future of defense contracting. TIMESTAMPS: (2:15) How does government contracting work (6:45) Opportunities to accelerate contracting timelines (9:37) Why we need to stop defining requirements (10:46) How to use the Tradewinds Solutions Marketplace (20:05) Reducing workflows from months to minutes (31:49) Advice for entrepreneurs wanting to sell to the government LINKS: Follow Andrew: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewcamel/ Follow Bonnie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bonnie-evangelista-520747231/ Closing the Loop: https://ctlresearch.com/ CDAO: https://www.ai.mil/ Tradewinds AI: https://www.tradewindai.com/