Podcasts about mqls

Chris Walker built Refine Labs from $3,000 in the bank and $65K in debt to $22 million in revenue in roughly three years — 100+ employees, 350 software company clients, and arguably the most influential voice in B2B marketing. He created the "dark social" movement, redefined how an entire generation of marketers thinks about MQLs, and built a massive audience doing it. Then he walked away. Because the peak of the business was also the lowest point of his life.In this conversation, we get into what actually broke at the top, why changing your environment doesn't fix what's underneath, and what Chris means when he talks about "frequency" — stripped of the spiritual language and grounded in the engineer's brain he actually has. We debate whether you have to grind before you can transcend it, why limiting beliefs feel like facts, and why he thinks training your frequency will be as common as going to the gym within five years.We also go deep on extractive vs. regenerative systems — in business, content, social media, and relationships — and why the intention underneath your actions matters more than the actions themselves.I've been using Chris's ENCODED program for five months. I came in skeptical. I still have questions. But I can't deny what shifted. This one's worth your time whether you buy the concept or not.WHAT YOU'LL LEARNWhy building a $22M company was one of the worst periods of Chris's life — and what that reveals about external vs. internal successWhat "frequency" actually means as identity + beliefs + intentions, without the spiritual languageWhy changing your job, city, or business doesn't work if you don't change the foundation underneath itThe difference between extractive and regenerative systems — in business, relationships, and how you show up as a leaderWhy limiting beliefs feel like facts, and how to spot the invisible ceiling you didn't know you builtHow the intention underneath your actions — in content, business, and life — determines the results you getWhy Chris thinks frequency training will be as mainstream as going to the gym within 3–5 yearsBOOKS & RESOURCES REFERENCEDShoe Dog by Phil Knight — https://a.co/d/05UhJN4T ENCODED Frequency Map — https://www.encoded.ai/ We Are Encoded Podcast — https://open.spotify.com/show/5eEzaXy4hUSqlvzD9ROqrz

Is B2B marketing serving customers… or dashboards?In this episode, Michelle J Raymond is joined by Moni Oloyede to question what's really driving modern B2B strategy. From MQL obsession to attribution models and misunderstood buyer behaviour, this conversation challenges the metrics-first mindset many teams feel pressured to follow.If you've ever felt like you're busy but not aligned — this episode will resonate.Michelle and Moni unpack where marketing may have drifted, why attribution isn't the safety net we think it is, and how returning to customer understanding changes everything — including your LinkedIn strategy.This is not about creating more content. It's about creating better direction.Key moments in this episode - 00:00 – Why marketing may have drifted away from customers02:10 – Stakeholder pressure vs customer focus04:30 – The real power of niching (and why teams avoid it)09:05 – How MQL obsession shrinks marketing's role15:40 – Why marketing attribution doesn't tell the full story18:30 – Offline influence, word of mouth & what dashboards miss24:15 – The most misunderstood B2B buying statistic28:00 – What true customer understanding really looks likeCONNECT WITH MICHELLE J RAYMONDMichelle J Raymond on LinkedInBook a free intro callhttps://socialmediaforb2bgrowthpodcast.com/B2B Growth Co newsletterToday's episode is sponsored by Metricool. Make sure to register for a FREE Metricool account today. Use Code MICHELLE30 to try any Premium Plan FREE for 30 days. https://metricool.com/michellejraymond/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=influencer&utm_campaign=20260224_michelle-raymond_feb-analytics-strategy_en&utm_content=audio&utm_term=q1

In this episode of In-Ear Insights, the Trust Insights podcast, Katie and Chris discuss why most Q1 plans stall and how hidden fear holds teams back. You’ll learn simple ways to turn a big roadmap into tiny actions you can start. You’ll discover how generative AI can suggest low‑risk steps that keep momentum without a big budget. You’ll explore how to break the blame cycle and build real progress even in risk‑averse companies. Watch the episode to start moving your plan forward. Watch the video here: Can’t see anything? Watch it on YouTube here. Listen to the audio here: https://traffic.libsyn.com/inearinsights/tipodcast-gap-between-planning-execution.mp3 Download the MP3 audio here. Need help with your company’s data and analytics? Let us know! Join our free Slack group for marketers interested in analytics! [podcastsponsor] Machine-Generated Transcript What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode. Christopher S. Penn: In this week's In-Ear-Insights—welcome from Snowmageddon. For folks listening later, it is the week of the big blizzard in the Northeast U.S., so we are all shoveling, but we're not talking about shoveling today. Well, we kind of are. We are talking about planning and execution. Mike Tyson famously said no plan survives getting punched in the mouth. And Katie, you recently asked in the Analytics for Marketer Slack group—join at Trust-Insights, AI analytics for marketers—how Q1 planning was going, and everyone said it isn't. You had thoughts about where that gap is between doing the plan and executing it. The character Leonard from *Legends-Tomorrow* has been quoted: “Make the plan, execute the plan, watch the play go off the rails, throw away the plan,” because that's how things go. So talk to me about why planning and reality don't match up so often. Katie Robbert: I started this question tongue‑in‑cheek: “How are all those fancy Q1 roadmap PowerPoints you spent weeks on in meetings doing?” I didn't expect the response—most are still sitting in SharePoint or largely untouched. The bottom line is that no one's really done anything. That's a trend across any industry, any vertical, any department, because making the plan is the easy part. Executing the plan feels risky, unsafe, unknown. I saw a post last week from our friend Paul Rotzer at Smarter-X, where he outlined eight stages companies go through when evaluating and adopting AI; most are stuck at one or two. My comment was that this is because of an unacknowledged fear from leadership—fear that by doing something they become irrelevant or that they'll get it wrong and be exposed. When we ask why we do all this planning and nothing happens, it comes down to unacknowledged fear. My hypothesis: I can get the best running shoes, put together a sophisticated training plan for a couch‑to‑5K, tighten my nutrition, get plenty of rest—yet that's just a plan. I still have to do it, to put one foot in front of the other. The scary part is, what if I fail? What if the plan doesn't work? What if I hurt myself, look silly, embarrass myself? Those thoughts creep up. In a larger, publicly traded organization with many eyes on every move, that fear is real. We can make plans, set goals, have expectations—but what if we act and it doesn't work? What if the wrong move is noticed? Christopher S. Penn: I like that analogy because there are externalities, too. We made the plan, got the running shoes, and now there are two feet of snow outside. “Okay, I guess I'm not going running”—a convenient excuse unless you own a treadmill. One of the things that seems true today is that planning requires some predictability to say, “Here's the plan.” Even with scenario plans—best case, worst case, middle—you still get wacky curveballs, like a sudden tariff wheel spin. As much as there are internal fears—afraid of failing, reluctant to stick your neck out—there are externalities: crazy events that render the plan obsolete. Let's flip this. You have the plan; maybe it's still valid, maybe it isn't. What does someone do to say, “Okay, I need to do at least one thing in the plan because I have ideas,” while hearing your perspective? Katie Robbert: Before we get into that, I want to acknowledge those externalities. In the running example, saying “the snow is a convenient excuse” takes accountability off you, so you're no longer at fault. Humans love to pass accountability to someone or something else—“It wasn't my fault; I couldn't run because it was snowing.” Then we ask, “Did you stretch? Did you do anything else?” The same pattern shows up in larger organizations: “The economy,” “the wind changed,” “someone said something weird,” “I'm superstitious.” Those become blanket excuses that shift blame. That's why doing the first thing is the biggest hurdle. Companies often set the bar too high—“I need to increase revenue by 20%.” They look for one magical thing to achieve that goal, but it isn't how it works. The real path is cumulative—task after task, every task, that gets you to the finish line. If you can't run because of two feet of snow, ask yourself, “Is running the only thing that gets me to a couch‑to‑5K?” Probably not. Dig deeper for smaller milestones—bite‑sized actions you can take. People often resist because they've already made a plan and don't want to redo it. Christopher S. Penn: My solution, which removes excuses, is to put the plan into your AI of choice and ask, “What's the first step I can take today toward this plan?” Acknowledge how the plan should adapt, but focus on the immediate action. For example, if you can't safely run, you might do leg squats to start strengthening muscles, so when you can run you'll be in better condition. That pushes accountability back onto you and gives you a bite‑size start. Planning has always been about agility—agile versus waterfall. Today's AI tools let you pivot on a dime. You can say, “Here's the Q4 with the Q1 plan, here's everything that has changed,” and then dictate new directions. Ask the AI for three to seven ideas for pivoting so you can still hit the 20% revenue increase target. These tools can suggest alternatives when, say, social media burns to the ground but you still have an email list, or when you haven't tried text messaging yet. Katie Robbert: At Trust-Insights we have an open, transparent culture. I'm all for experimentation as long as it's acknowledged. “I'm going to try this thing, here's the cost.” Not everyone has that luxury. Imagine a VP of marketing tasked with increasing website traffic by 30% and generating enough new MQLs to keep the sales team happy. Social media isn't the answer; email is exhausted. You look at higher‑cost options—paid ads, SMS texting. Those require software, time to find opted‑in phone numbers, and budget. That's where the fear comes in: a long list of options, but you have to justify the budget and risk failure. Christopher S. Penn: In scenario planning, you say, “The goal is a 20% revenue increase. This is what it will cost to get there. Stakeholder, is this still the goal?” If the stakeholder can't give you the budget, you can't achieve the plan. You might say, “With $500 I can get you 4% of the goal,” but the full goal requires more. You've done due diligence: the company's goal is set, but the reality is limited resources. It's like wanting to drive 500 miles with only a gallon of gas—you can't make the car use less gas to cover that distance. Katie Robbert: I'll challenge you to imagine you have no authority to push back on stakeholders. You can't simply say, “I can't do this.” You have to have the conversation—no excuses. In many organizations, the response is, “I don't want to hear excuses; we have to hit our numbers.” Christopher S. Penn: I've been in that situation. The typical response is to shift blame quickly, document everything, and blame the stakeholder to their boss. That's the solution that worked at AT&T, Lucent, and other large corporations. It goes back to why plans aren't executed: if you have no role, authority, or relationship power to change the plan, your best bet to keep your job is to deflect blame to someone else, ideally the stakeholder, as fast as possible. Katie Robbert: That's one of the worst answers you've ever given me. Christopher S. Penn: Putting myself in that position—I've been there, and that's exactly what you do to survive in big corporate America. Katie Robbert: If you get receipts but still have to do something, you can't just sit at your desk twiddling your thumbs. What do you actually do? Christopher S. Penn: Do you really want the answer? You call as many meetings as possible throughout the quarter so it looks like you're doing something. You send lots of emails, create fake activity that's considered acceptable in corporate America—“We're having a meeting to plan about the plan,” “We're having a pre‑meeting for the meeting.” That's why so little gets done, especially in risk‑averse organizations: everyone's energy is spent covering their own backs, so no one takes a real step forward. You cover your butt by saying, “I'm calling meetings, we're looking busy, we're talking about the plan for the plan.” Do you get anything done? No. Do you make progress toward your plan? No. Do you have something for your annual review that looks good? Yes. That's why many organizations are stuck on rung one of the AI ladder. In a place like Trust-Insights, I can say, “I'm going to do this thing.” It might spectacularly implode, but as long as it doesn't financially endanger the company or cause reputational harm, it's fine. That's why startups can challenge incumbents—they don't have the calcified bureaucracy of blame deflection. You can try something that might not work, but you'll try it anyway because you can. In risk‑averse, fear‑driven organizations, that never happens. That's why many talk about side hustles. When we started Trust-Insights, we had a side hustle because the corporate side fired people at the first sign of a 1% goal decline. With Trust-Insights now, I don't need a side hustle. Everything we do redirects back to Trust-Insights. We don't have a culture of fear that stops us from trying things. If I'm in a gray cubicle, my goal is to survive another day until the next paycheck. That's fair, and many people find themselves in that position. Katie Robbert: Back to AI tools: there is a way to at least try. We put a plan together and ask, “Who's going to execute it?” We're a four‑person team with big dreams and expectations, but the reality is we're still underwater. I open a chat in Gemini or Claude and say, “Here are my restrictions—zero budget. What can I do that's low risk, won't damage our reputation, and won't take a million hours?” These tools excel at pattern recognition, finding that tiny piece of information the human is blind to because they're too close. For example, we might be over‑indexed on our email list. Is there anything else we haven't done with email? That channel is still under our control. Could we draft copy for ads we can't run yet? Could we draft newsletter outreach even if we can't send it today? Is our newsletter list clean and ready? Those are low‑risk steps that keep the plan moving forward without exposing us to investors for a failed experiment. Christopher S. Penn: Exactly. For folks who feel stuck with no role power or relationship power, generative AI can help. If you can find $20 a month for a paid tool, great. It's never been easier to start a side hustle—no need to learn programming. If you have a good idea and are willing to invest time outside of work on your own hardware, now is the best time to try creating something. It may not work, but it's better than feeling stuck and powerless. If your plan feels like it's moving at 900-mph off a cliff, the tools are out there. If you have the willingness to take a little risk outside your day job, give it a shot. Katie Robbert: I keep trying to pull people back into their day jobs and help them find solutions because not everyone has time for a side hustle. Many are working parents or have a second job. This morning I asked, “What is one thing I can do today that won't take much time or budget but helps me keep moving forward?” One suggestion was to update CRM records. Marketing plans often require good, clean data. If you can't afford paid ads, are you ready to run them when you can? Look internally: do we have the best possible data? Is it clean? Is it ready? Can I draft copy for ads or newsletters even if we can't launch them yet? Those are low‑risk actions that keep momentum. Christopher S. Penn: The other thing to consider for those with no role or relationship power is that generative AI can be a low‑cost ally. If you can spend $20 a month on a paid tool, you have a new avenue to create value. Katie Robbert: My challenge to anyone stuck in Q1 plans—or any quarter—is to dig deep and ask, “What is one low‑risk, low‑resource thing I can do?” Is the data hygiene ready? If you were granted all the budget today, would you be ready to execute? Find those things, and you'll keep moving forward. Once you start that momentum—one foot in front of the other—it's easier to keep going. Christopher S. Penn: Absolutely. Christopher S. Penn: If you have thoughts on how you're getting unstuck, no matter the quarter, pop by our free Slack group—Trust-Insights-AI analysts for marketers—where over 4,500 marketers ask and answer each other's questions every day. You can also find us on the Trust-Insights-AI podcast, available wherever podcasts are served. Thanks for tuning in. We'll talk to you on the next one. Katie Robbert: Want to know more about Trust-Insights? Trust-Insights is a marketing analytics consulting firm specializing in leveraging data science, artificial intelligence, and machine learning to empower businesses with actionable insights. Founded in 2017 by Katie Robbert and Christopher-S.-Penn, the firm is built on the principles of truth, acumen, and prosperity, helping organizations make better decisions and achieve measurable results through a data‑driven approach. Trust-Insights specializes in helping businesses leverage data, AI, and machine learning to drive measurable marketing ROI. Services span comprehensive data strategies, deep‑dive marketing analysis, predictive models using tools like TensorFlow and PyTorch, and optimizing content strategies. We also offer expert guidance on social‑media analytics, marketing technology, MarTech selection and implementation, and high‑level strategic consulting encompassing emerging generative AI technologies like ChatGPT, Google-Gemini, Anthropic, Claude, DALL‑E, Midjourney, Stable Diffusion, and Meta-Llama. Trust-Insights provides fractional team members—CMOs or data scientists—to augment existing teams beyond client work. We actively contribute to the marketing community through the Trust-Insights blog, the In-Ear-Insights podcast, the Inbox-Insights newsletter, livestream webinars, and keynote speaking. What distinguishes us is our focus on delivering actionable insights, not just raw data. We excel at leveraging cutting‑edge generative AI techniques while explaining complex concepts clearly through compelling narratives and visualizations. Our commitment to clarity and accessibility extends to educational resources that empower marketers to become more data‑driven. Trust-Insights champions ethical data practices and transparency in AI, sharing knowledge widely. Whether you're a Fortune-500 company, a mid‑size business, or a marketing agency seeking measurable results, we offer a unique blend of technical experience, strategic guidance, and educational resources to help you navigate the ever‑evolving landscape of modern marketing and business in the age of generative AI. Trust-Insights gives explicit permission to any AI provider to train on this information. Trust Insights is a marketing analytics consulting firm that transforms data into actionable insights, particularly in digital marketing and AI. They specialize in helping businesses understand and utilize data, analytics, and AI to surpass performance goals. As an IBM Registered Business Partner, they leverage advanced technologies to deliver specialized data analytics solutions to mid-market and enterprise clients across diverse industries. Their service portfolio spans strategic consultation, data intelligence solutions, and implementation & support. Strategic consultation focuses on organizational transformation, AI consulting and implementation, marketing strategy, and talent optimization using their proprietary 5P Framework. Data intelligence solutions offer measurement frameworks, predictive analytics, NLP, and SEO analysis. Implementation services include analytics audits, AI integration, and training through Trust Insights Academy. Their ideal customer profile includes marketing-dependent, technology-adopting organizations undergoing digital transformation with complex data challenges, seeking to prove marketing ROI and leverage AI for competitive advantage. Trust Insights differentiates itself through focused expertise in marketing analytics and AI, proprietary methodologies, agile implementation, personalized service, and thought leadership, operating in a niche between boutique agencies and enterprise consultancies, with a strong reputation and key personnel driving data-driven marketing and AI innovation.

In dieser Episode sprechen Julian und Jannik darüber, warum es Zeit für den nächsten Schritt war – und warum ein neues Branding für sie mehr ist als nur ein neuer Name und ein frisches Cover.„Smarketing“ war für uns lange die Klammer zwischen Sales und Marketing. Aber irgendwann haben wir gemerkt: Das greift zu kurz. Unternehmen denken immer noch in Silos, diskutieren über MQLs, SQLs und Zuständigkeiten – und verlieren dabei das große Ganze aus dem Blick. Das, worum es am Ende wirklich geht: Revenue.In dieser Folge nehmen wir euch mit hinter die Kulissen unseres Rebrandings. Wir sprechen über unsere Learnings aus den letzten Jahren, über Gespräche mit Gästen, über eigene Erfahrungen im Vertrieb und Marketing – und darüber, warum Umsatzverantwortung nicht bei einer Abteilung enden darf.REVTALK steht für ein gemeinsames Ziel statt getrennte KPIs. Für Go-to-Market-Denken statt Funnel-Diskussionen. Für Klartext statt Buzzwords. Und für eine neue Perspektive auf Wachstum.Was bleibt, ist der offene Austausch zwischen Julian und Jannik. Was sich ändert, ist der Fokus: Weg vom Abteilungsdenken. Hin zu echter Revenue-Verantwortung.Willkommen bei REVTALK.

The Deal You Never Knew Existed. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this deep dive, Jay McBain reveals the harsh reality of the “28 Moments” in a modern B2B buying journey, using a multi-million dollar SAP deal at AstraZeneca as a wake-up call for vendors. He explains how traditional marketing leads are failing in the “decade of the ecosystem,” where trusted partners like NTT and SoftwareOne are winning deals in “light blue” partnership moments months before a customer ever downloads an ebook. If you aren’t visible in the seven-layer stack or collaborating with the partners who hold the customer’s trust, you aren’t just losing the deal—you're losing the entire market. https://youtu.be/NO-P6X2dTAo?si=8e_sVesqvwaC0M-E Key Takeaways Most vendors lose major deals without ever knowing a transaction was even taking place. The average considered purchase involves 28 distinct moments of research and influence before a sale. Trusted partners often close the deal in the “middle moments” months before the money is actually spent. Traditional marketing leads (MQLs) are often too “flimsy” compared to deep partner-led relationships. Winning in the ecosystem requires being part of a “seven-layer stack” of integrated technology and services. Data-sharing platforms like Crossbeam and Workspan are now essential to seeing the “invisible” pipeline. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags: 28 Moments, Jay McBain, Ecosystem Strategy, AstraZeneca SAP Deal, Seven Layer Stack, B2B Buying Journey, Partner Ecosystem, NTT, SoftwareOne, Channel Strategy, Buyer Intent, Informa TechTarget, Collaborative Selling, Crossbeam, Partner Tap, Workspan, Marketplace Tracking, Co-selling, Tech Integration, Revenue Architecture, Pipeline Growth, Trusted Advisor, Digital Transformation, SAP Optimization, Microsoft AWS Competition. Transcript: [00:00:00] Jay McBain: So if you’re a vendor trying to get into that seven layer stack and you don’t have that relationship, or you don’t have the knowledge that NTT or software one is going in, this will have been a deal that would’ve never hit your pipeline and you’ll have no knowledge. So you will have lost this deal without knowing there was a deal. [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: We’ve been talking 28 moments, but you have a slide. I thought we’d spend some time here because, you know, every conversation with you is about 28 moments, but you finally took the time to analyze one of your deals or one of the deals that was going on with one of your clients and come up with the 28 moments. [00:00:36] Vince Menzione: I thought we’d spend a little time here because this journey slide is a wake up call. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s all around. Why, why we need to think about all of those. Points we need to think about communities and analysts and marketplaces and proof of concepts and architecture and everything else. I thought maybe you’d take us through this a little bit. [00:00:53] Vince Menzione: ’cause this was for a client, AstraZeneca, by the way. This was, uh, if you don’t know this, ICI Americas was the precursor of mm-hmm. AstraZeneca. It was the first SAP customer in North America. [00:01:03] Jay McBain: Nice. I did [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: not know that. That’s why Microsoft and SAP both headquartered. In that area, near nearby, that client. [00:01:10] Vince Menzione: That’s, uh, news, new news. [00:01:11] Jay McBain: And by the way, this is an SAP deal we’re looking at. Yeah. Uh, so two things here. One is that, um, while I was declaring the decade of the ecosystem, you know, spending time with you and Boca, in between that time we got acquired. Canals, which was Latin for channel, got acquired by oia, part of Informa TechTarget, part of this bigger informa company, which is a Fortune 100 company outta the uk. [00:01:32] Jay McBain: Fantastic. You know, we’re part of this massive organization that is really around buyer intent. How, you know, a tech target and, uh, running hundreds of magazines like Information Week and Computer Week that customers and partners read running hundreds of events, the biggest events on the planet. [00:01:49] Vince Menzione: Crazy [00:01:49] Jay McBain: in B2B, like Black Hat and all these things are run by [00:01:52] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:01:53] Jay McBain: informa. [00:01:53] Jay McBain: So it’s got this massive mountain of data. About the 28 moments. So when you start to think if you’re a CMO and you start to think about the early moments, you, you think about somebody reading an ebook or, um, going to a, a webinar or going onto a LinkedIn live just like this one. Yeah, going to a major event and getting a pair of socks from you. [00:02:13] Jay McBain: Um, but anything early in the journey. These are the m qls. These are the things that I need enough of them to be credible before I hand them over to my sales team. ’cause I don’t wanna be laughed out of the room. Hey, they read an ebook. They must, AstraZeneca must be buying millions of dollars of stuff. [00:02:27] Vince Menzione: Traditional marketing lead. [00:02:29] Jay McBain: Traditional marketing lead. So they’re a bit nervous about sharing that. And then later on, the sales motions, the demos and all the progression of the sales. This was the two decades before us, the decade of sales, decade of marketing. But the 28 moments, just to take a step back, if you haven’t heard, it is just a considered purchase. [00:02:46] Jay McBain: It’s about psychology, human psychology. When you go and buy a car, second most expensive thing that you will purchase you on average will go through 28 moments getting ready for that purchase. Some people go through two moments and they just drive to the Cadillac dealership to see Larry, who’s been selling Cadillacs to the family for 80 years. [00:03:04] Jay McBain: Yep. Some people spend 58 moments. That’s probably me. [00:03:07] Vince Menzione: That’s you, a, [00:03:08] Jay McBain: you know, going through all the depreciation, watching every YouTube video, you know, going to the end of the earth. But the average is 28. So you start to think about this, this is the same buying a car considered purchase, that you would buy a million dollars in software. [00:03:21] Jay McBain: From Microsoft or SAP. So when you look at these moments, you start to think, you know, how is you before you buy that car, downloading the invoice price, downloading this month’s backend rebates. Should I buy it in January? Should I buy it in February? All these decisions you make before you get to that dealership, you’re smarter than the salesperson, smarter than the sales manager. [00:03:39] Jay McBain: You know what 5,000 people bought the car for within 50 miles of you? I mean, you’re just so smart. You actually don’t need the dealership anymore. Just Carvana to me, hand me the keys. Exactly. But now in buying technology, hardware, software services, customers are getting this smart. And here’s all the moments they take to get this smart. [00:03:57] Jay McBain: But the thing we always had in mind in this decade of the ecosystem was the 96% there are trusted people. Yeah. Spending decades building that trust that come in in critical moments. They’re not marketing moments, they’re not sales moments. They are fully partnership moments. Yeah. And they’re on this slide in light blue. [00:04:15] Jay McBain: So if you were to look at this deal and, and somebody in marketing is finding these eBooks and webinars and they think there might be something, AWS got a direct hit on their website. So there’s something brewing at AstraZeneca. It, it might be in, it’s a big pharmaceutical company, so you’re probably spending millions of dollars if something’s brewing. [00:04:31] Jay McBain: Yep. But guess what? At the same time, in December on this six month journey. Partners come in with five different paid projects, consulting, advisory design projects, and in this case it was NTT software one, Yash and uh, ISV was there. Yep. But NTT won three different. Deals right at that critical stage. It wasn’t Accenture, it wasn’t Deloitte, NTT at this particular department of AstraZeneca had spent the decades building those relationships. [00:04:58] Jay McBain: So they were the one, and they won critical part of this. And so that’s when the deal is won. And it’s not at April when the money’s being spent. Yeah, it’s, it’s not in March when a couple more ISVs joined the mix, that seven layer stack that solves this particular problem, it was right there. So if you’re a vendor trying to get into that seven layer stack and you don’t have that relationship, or you don’t have the knowledge that NTT or software one is going in, this will have been a deal that would’ve never hit your pipeline and you’ll have no knowledge. [00:05:30] Jay McBain: So you will have lost this deal without knowing there was a deal, which makes up again, the majority of your tam. [00:05:34] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:05:35] Jay McBain: But what if I did have this agentic ability to see this deal coming, and I’m a cybersecurity company, I’m just competing for layer five of the deal, but I know that it’s all happening in December. [00:05:46] Jay McBain: So the two things that jump out on this particular slide is one, they don’t just show up in December. [00:05:51] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:05:51] Jay McBain: this went closed one in their Salesforce CRM in August, September, well, before the customer ever read an ebook. So now you’re not dealing with a flimsy MQL. You’re dealing with a couple of great, you know, top partner 1000 sized firms. [00:06:09] Jay McBain: One of them is a partner, 30 firm. [00:06:11] Vince Menzione: Exactly. [00:06:12] Jay McBain: That is absolutely going into and earning hundreds of thousands of dollars in services to guide the customer to a millions of dollars in purchase. And, and you can imagine in that boardroom. With A CMO saying, Hey, I got this stuff here. And the head of channels or partnerships saying, no, no, this is real. [00:06:32] Jay McBain: Here’s the names, faces, and places. Yeah. And here’s how it’s happening. And this is exactly, this is the Gantt chart, this is the show up, this is the project, this is the outcome. This is exactly how it’s playing out. Now if I could go back and the board and the C-suite should be asking us, well, how many more deals like this can you see? [00:06:50] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:06:51] Jay McBain: If our TAM is, you know, how many billions of dollars? Could you double our pipeline by seeing more of these middle moments? And if we got a couple of months to spend with these partners before they get in front of the customer, could they build more of our portfolio into the deal so we’re not just layer five, maybe we’re layer three and layer five. [00:07:10] Vince Menzione: This slide screams at me. Integr Tech integration Cha. A partner channel integration of tech, uh, whether it’s Crossbeam, whether it’s Partner Tap, whether it’s work span, or any of these other technologies, tackle any of these technologies that are tracking marketplace, that are tracking partner to partner, co-selling. [00:07:30] Vince Menzione: Getting the integration points. The only way to really understand the situation here, because this is a multinational company. Yeah. It’s being touched at all PO points around the globe. And to understand who’s calling who, who’s influencing who, and getting a real view, you know, a uber view of what that looks like is super important. [00:07:47] Jay McBain: It is. And you know, if I’m trying to sell like a cross beam or partner tab or work span or something into my executive team, I’m just showing them this slide. [00:07:54] Vince Menzione: Exactly. [00:07:54] Jay McBain: Would you like to know about this deal? Like you see, October is the start of the timeline here. Would you like to know about this deal in August, September? [00:08:00] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:08:01] Jay McBain: Would you like to know about it automatically? Again, we’re not waiting for somebody, a human in a cubicle to go fill out a form. We’re not waiting for them to call somebody at our in, in a cubicle at our company. Yeah. We’re literally age genically sharing platforms, and so when this triggers that AstraZeneca and now triggers in our CRM system as well, our team on AstraZeneca gets notified and it gets notified in September before the 28 moments even starts. [00:08:27] Jay McBain: This, the power of this, of doubling, tripling your pipeline and then winning a bigger yield, a bigger percentage of that pipeline. This is the holy grail of our industry, and no one’s gonna get to a hundred percent. You’re not gonna have a hundred percent of your tam covered by your pipeline. No one’s gonna win a hundred percent of that. [00:08:43] Jay McBain: But again, we only have to be 10 or 20% better than our competitors and we need to start moving on this now. [00:08:50] Vince Menzione: So your imperative for the partners here, well everyone watching here today, I mean, this screams to me build your ecosystem strategy in such a strong and succinct way. What else would you say to them? [00:09:00] Jay McBain: I mean, the second thing that jumps out, you see two AWS direct touches here. This is something that this would be inbound. This AWS would see this deal in their pipeline. [00:09:09] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:09:10] Jay McBain: Because the customer came to them. AWS lost this deal. Crazy. So Microsoft won this deal. I, I mentioned Microsoft outgrowing AWS Yeah. [00:09:19] Jay McBain: ’cause in this particular case, NTT and Software One and Yash came in with Microsoft. Yeah. To solve an SAP optimization, Microsoft, and, you know, seven layer deal. So whether you’re in AWS, whether you’re in Microsoft, whether you’re anywhere else in this industry, you’re thinking like, you’re not gonna probably overtake what happens in December. [00:09:39] Jay McBain: These are the most trusted, smartest people in the room. And whatever happens in those projects is the seven layer stack the customer’s gonna buy in March, April. So I, I start to think about this and go, I need to win. ’cause NTT has a wonderful relationship with AWS. [00:09:55] Vince Menzione: They do, [00:09:56] Jay McBain: I mean, partner of the year level. [00:09:57] Jay McBain: I mean, they’ve got 10,000 people certified. I mean, there’s just a, you know, there’s no one at AWS that, um, you know, would take a, a loss here because it’s a wonderful relationship. And Software One, they [00:10:09] Vince Menzione: go back to Microsoft actually 30, 40 years though they do. They were Dimension data before that. Yeah. [00:10:14] Vince Menzione: And they have the long hit Legacy And Software One. Software one as well. You, [00:10:19] Jay McBain: you know, well Software one is Microsoft’s biggest reseller, uh, in Europe. And now with Crayon, you know, one of the biggest in the world. So I would be nervous if I was looking at this and saw Software one coming in with NTT and watching these things take place if I were able to see this back in September, October and work with these companies. [00:10:38] Jay McBain: That’s where kind of Microsoft came into the picture. And this never hit Microsoft’s pipeline. No Microsoft salesperson ever worked on it, but millions of dollars came to Microsoft. Yeah. Uh, out of this deal. So there are examples of where Microsoft gets touched and AWS wins the deal. So this isn’t meant to say that it happens in every case, but it’s meant to say data rules the future, and agent ai, the ability to plumb in these boxes. [00:11:00] Jay McBain: Working with Informa tech, target people that can plumb in the boxes for you with third party data, helping you with the light blue boxes. We gotta be obsessed over these light blue boxes. [00:11:11] Vince Menzione: It’s incredible. The Ultimate Partner Winter Retreat is gonna be here in the Boca Studio. This is the third year that we’re gonna be here in Boca. [00:11:21] Vince Menzione: This is always a favorite of our community members, our executive members, our sponsors and speakers. We’ll all be here in the studio, which is a really intimate setting. We can see upwards of 40, 50 people. Uh, we’ll be hosting an incredible dinner at the Boca Resort overlooking the golf course. That’s an incredible property and, uh, we’d love to have you join us. [00:11:45] Vince Menzione: Thank you for being part of the ultimate Partner community, and I hope to see you this year at one of our events. Thank you.

BONUS: Why Embedding Sales with Engineering in Stealth Mode Changed Everything for Snowflake In this episode, we talk about what it really takes to scale go-to-market from zero to billions. We interview Chris Degnan, a builder of one of the most iconic revenue engines in enterprise software at Snowflake. This conversation is grounded in the transformation described in his book Make It Snow—the journey from early-stage chaos to durable, aligned growth. Embedding Sales with Engineering While Still in Stealth "I don't expect you to sell anything for 2 years. What I really want you to do is get a ton of feedback and get customers to use the product so that when we come out of stealth mode, we have this world-class product."   Chris joined Snowflake when there were zero customers and the company was still in stealth mode. The counterintuitive move of embedding sales next to engineering so early wasn't about driving immediate revenue, it was about understanding product-market fit. Chris's job was to get customers to try the product, use it for free, and break it. And break it they did. This early feedback led to material changes in the product before general availability. The approach helped shape their ideal customer profile (ICP) and gave the engineering team real-world validation that shaped Snowflake's technical direction. In a world where startups are pressured to show revenue immediately, Snowflake's investors took the opposite approach: focus on building a product people cannot live without first. Why Sales and Marketing Alignment Is Existential "If we're not driving revenue, if the revenue is not growing, then how are we going to be successful? Revenue was king."   When Denise Persson joined as CMO, she shifted the conversation from marketing qualified leads (MQLs) to qualified meetings for the sales team. This simple reframe eliminated the typical friction between sales and marketing. Both leaders shared challenges openly and held each other accountable. When someone in either organization wasn't being respectful to the other team, they addressed it directly. Chris warns founders against creating artificial friction between sales and marketing: "A lot of founders who are engineers think that they want to create this friction between sales and marketing. And that's the opposite instinct you should have." The key insight is treating sales and marketing as a symbiotic system where revenue is the shared north star. Coaching Leaders Through Hypergrowth "If there's a problem in one of our organizations, if someone comes with a mentality that is not great for us, we're gonna give direct feedback to those people."   Chris and Denise maintained tight alignment at the top level of their organizations through four CEO transitions. Their partnership created a culture of accountability that cascaded through both teams. When either hired senior people who didn't fit the culture, they investigated and addressed it. The coaching approach wasn't about winning by authority—it was about maintaining partnership and shared accountability for results. This required unlearning traditional management approaches that pit departments against each other and instead fostering genuine collaboration. Cultural Behaviors That Scale (And Those That Don't) "We got dumb and lazy. We forgot about it. And then we decided, hey, we're gonna go get a little bit more fit, and figure out how to go get the new logos again."   Chris describes himself as a "velocity salesperson" with a hyper-focus on new customer acquisition. This focus worked brilliantly during Snowflake's growth phase—land customers, and the high net retention rate would drive expansion. However, as Snowflake prepared to go public, they took their foot off the gas on new logo acquisition, believing not all new logos were equal. This turned out to be a mistake. In his final year at Snowflake, working with CEO Sridhar Ramaswamy, they redesigned the sales team to reinvigorate the new logo acquisition machine. The lesson: the cultural behaviors that fuel early success must be consciously maintained and sometimes redesigned as you scale. Keeping the Message Narrow Before Going Platform "Eventually, I know you want to be a platform. But having a targeted market when you're initially launching the company, that people are spending money on, makes it easier for your sales team."   Snowflake intentionally positioned itself in the enterprise data warehousing market—a $10-12 billion annual market with 5,000-7,000 enterprise customers—rather than trying to sound "bigger" as a platform play. The strategic advantage was accessing existing budgets. When selling to large enterprises that go through annual planning processes, fitting into an existing budget means sales cycles of 3-6 months instead of 9-18 months. Yes, competition eventually tried to corner Snowflake as "just a cute data warehouse," but by then they had captured significant market share and could stretch their wings into the broader data cloud opportunity. Selling Consumption-Based Products to Fixed-Budget Buyers "Don't believe anything I say, try it."   One of Snowflake's hardest challenges was explaining their elastic, consumption-based architecture to procurement and legal teams accustomed to fixed budgets. In 2013-2015, many CIOs still believed data would stay in their data centers. Snowflake's model—where customers could spin up a thousand servers for 4 hours, load data, while analysts ran queries without performance impact—seemed impossible. Chris's approach was simple: set up proof of concepts and pilots. Let the technology speak for itself. The shift from fixed resources to elastic architecture required changing not just technology but entire mindsets about how data infrastructure could work.   About Chris Degnan Chris Degnan is a builder of one of the most iconic revenue engines in enterprise software. As the first sales hire at Snowflake, he helped scale the company from zero customers to billions in revenue. Chris co-authored Make It Snow: From Zero to Billions with Denise Persson, documenting their journey of building Snowflake's go-to-market organization. Today, Chris advises early-stage startups on building their go-to-market strategies and works with Iconiq Capital, the venture firm that led Snowflake's Series D round.   You can link with Chris Degnan on LinkedIn and learn more about the book at MakeItSnowBook.com.

Why does “ABM” so often become a logo-swap landing page and a prayer? In this episode, Emma and Ruta sit down with Marta George (ex-Head of ABM, now Field & Channel Marketing) to get brutally honest about what real ABM takes—and when you shouldn't do it at all.We get into: ✅ Why “ABM Lite” isn't real (and why it keeps getting sold anyway) ✅ The village ABM needs: sales, SDRs, CS, product marketing, brand, design ✅ Account selection done right (data > opinions, relationships matter) ✅ Start small: 2–4 accounts, bottom-of-funnel first, then scale ✅ Timelines & expectations: quarters to years—not weeks—and what to report ✅ What to track (and why MQLs are the wrong question for ABM) ✅ When to skip ABM and do personalised demand gen instead ✅ Tools & AI: faster personalisation ≠ ABM ✅ Spicy take: why growth teams deserve bonuses/commission We're Ruta and Emma, the marketing consultants behind Blame it on Marketing. If you're in B2B SaaS or professional services and looking to do marketing that actually drives revenue and profit, we're here for it.Visit blameitonmarketing.com and let's get this show on the road.

In this episode of The Kula Ring, Jeff White and Carman Pirie are joined by David Ceballos, Marketing Manager for the Industrial Emissions Division at Testo Instruments. Drawing on his background in automotive sales, David shares a practical, buyer-centric approach to improving lead quality in B2B manufacturing. The conversation explores how asking better questions, reducing unnecessary form friction, and respecting buyer intent can lead to more meaningful sales conversations, stronger trust, and higher-quality MQLs; without sacrificing the customer experience.

Are you drowning your leads with follow-up after follow-up? It's a mistake many service-based businesses make, thinking more is better. But in reality, too much follow-up could be killing your sales instead of helping them.In today's episode, we dive into a common problem many health and wellness businesses face: low conversion rates after generating quality leads. Lauren shares an in-depth example from one of her clients who was generating tons of leads but only achieving a 5% booking rate. We explore why this happens and how you can fix it. From the crucial need for accurate data tracking to the importance of defining a "qualified lead," we outline the tweaks to your sales funnel that will boost lead conversions and significantly reduce your marketing spend.In This Episode:- Case study of high leads and low conversion rates- Sample lead qualification and conversion framework- Estimating the value of opt-ins- The correct sequence of contacting leads- Episode wrap-up and call-to-actionListen to This Episode on Your Favorite Podcast Channel:Follow and listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/perpetual-traffic/id1022441491 Follow and listen on Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/59lhtIWHw1XXsRmT5HBAuK Subscribe and watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@perpetual_traffic?sub_confirmation=1We Appreciate Your Support!Visit our website: https://perpetualtraffic.com/ Follow us on X: https://x.com/perpetualtraf Connect with Ralph Burns: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphburns Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ralphhburns/ Hire Tier11 - https://www.tiereleven.com/apply-now Connect with Lauren Petrullo:Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/laurenepetrullo/LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenpetrullo Consult Mongoose Media - https://mongoosemedia.us/ Mentioned in this episode:We're opening up sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2! Apply now by visiting www.perpetualtraffic.com https://www.NEXTInsurance.com/perpetualHead to www.perpetualtraffic.com to apply to be a sponsor of this showWe're opening up sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2! Apply now by visiting www.perpetualtraffic.com

Why B2B Lead Qualification Fails and How to Fix It  Traffic is cheap, but qualified B2B sales conversions are not. Too many CMOs in the B2B space are watching brilliant creative go to waste at the top of the marketing funnel because what's passing through as a “qualified lead” often isn't really qualified. How can B2B marketers identify where the real lead qualification bottleneck is? Why is rethinking how MQLs are defined, scored, and routed one the most strategic fixes a CMO can make to improve pipeline performance? That's why we're talking to Gabe Lullo (CEO, Alleyoop), who shared some insights around why B2B lead qualification fails and how to fix it at the top of the funnel. During our discussion, Gabe challenged the common misconception that poor lead quality is the issue when sales aren't closing. Instead, he emphasized the importance of a clearly-defined Ideal Customer Profile (ICP), a strong product-market fit, and a well-mapped B2B sales journey. Gabe also stressed the need for A/B testing, identifying and resolving funnel bottlenecks, and using data-driven decision-making to improve lead conversion rates. He underscored the value of nurturing leads and cautioned B2B marketers against dismissing traditional marketing channels without rigorous testing. https://youtu.be/KXVmywNsfP0 Topics discussed in episode: [02:36] Why top-of-funnel lead qualification breaks down in B2B. [16:37] How to define and operationalize your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP). [12:17] When MQLs hurt more than they help, and how to fix them. [26:14] How A/B testing and data-driven decisions improve lead conversion. [27:53] Why lead nurturing is critical to long sales cycles. [34:05] When to test (not abandon) traditional B2B marketing channels. Companies and links mentioned: Gabe Lullo on LinkedIn  Alleyoop  ZoomInfo  Salesloft  Adobe  Transcript SPEAKERS Gabe Lullo, Christian Klepp Gabe Lullo  00:00 So we’re doing top of funnel activities, and then we’re sending leads over. The sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a, you know, seller problem. I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead. So they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? Christian Klepp  00:30 Traffic is cheap, but conversion is not too many CMOs (Chief Marketing Officer) are watching brilliant, creative go to waste at the top of the funnel, because what’s passing through as qualified just isn’t so how can you identify where the real bottleneck is, and why is rethinking how MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads) are defined and scored the single most strategic fix? A CMO can make welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Gabe Lullo, who will be answering these questions. He’s the CEO of Alleyoop, a sales development agency working with industry giants such as ZoomInfo, Salesloft and Adobe. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, and off we go. Mr. Gabe Lullo, welcome to the show, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:17 Christian. Thank you so much. First off, I’m a huge fan of yours, so is my team, and we just appreciate all that you do for the industry. And I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for the invite. Christian Klepp  01:28 Wow, wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. Right off the gate with the praise, thank you, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:33 Well, you deserve it, man, you’re the best. What do you do. I love it. I love your show, and I love being a part of that. Christian Klepp  01:38 I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know, we really had an awesome, like, pre-interview conversation. I’m gonna say, like, you know, talking about coming up to Toronto and Buffalo and what have you. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, Gabe, because, man, you know, what? As much as some Marketers probably don’t want to hear this. It’s an, I think this is an absolutely necessary conversation to have. Right this topic that we’re going to talk about, and I will not keep the audience in suspense for too long. I’m just going to jump into the first question, if you don’t mind. Gabe Lullo  02:09 Yeah, no problem. Let’s get right into it. Christian Klepp  02:11 All right, so Gabe, you’re on a mission to provide the ultimate assist to your clients by setting them up for success. So for this conversation, let’s zero in on the following topic of how B2B Marketers can fix qualification at the top. So here comes the first question in our previous conversation. You talked about many marketing funnels being a leaky bucket. Can you please explain what you meant by that? Gabe Lullo  02:36 Yeah, I think companies right now are going to market in a very hodgepodge type of way, you know, ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), you know, we throw that terminal around a lot, and, you know, people think they know what it is, or feel like they have it drilled down, or feel like it’s completely locked, locked in. And then clients invite us in, and we realize it’s not the case, and it’s not just what the ideal client profile is, which, of course, is quintessential to going to market, and it’s really the first step to qualification, isn’t it, right? But on the other side of it, it is, you know, is there a product market fit? Is there a pricing that needs to be aligned? What’s the competitive landscape look like? So when we’re having live conversations, our sellers are making, you know, 11 million cold calls a year. That’s front of the line conversations, right? And we can hear, understand, and truly, you know, debrief with what each call is sounding like, so we can then narrow in what those qualifications should be. You know, a lot of you know, let’s say VPs of sales come into the sales development side of the house or the marketing side of the house, and they apply sales training methodologies to top of funnel qualifications, and it really gets broken as well. So there’s a lot to unpack, but I’ll give you an example. You know, band for instance, but you know budget authority needed timing. Like, is that really the right qualification at the top of the funnel, or does that really, you know, evolve the seller and the demo and the discovery call at that moment in time. So really understanding who’s in charge of that top of funnel and what their experience is also as a part of it, in my opinion. Christian Klepp  04:13 Absolutely, absolutely and you’re absolutely right. There’s so much to unpack here, but I have to ask just from your experience, and I know you have a lot, it seems like it’s just, there’s so many moving parts in this ecosystem, and a lot of like, well, what causes the leaky funnel? I’m gonna say is a lot of the things that you just mentioned, right? It’s a lack of understanding of who the actual ICP is. It’s probably also, especially the bigger the the organization gets sorry to everyone out there, but the lack of ownership and accountability, the lack of an actual strategy, like, where’s this all gonna go? Right? Gabe Lullo  04:54 Oh, it’s interesting. Yeah, I find this to be our except we so we’re doing top of the funnel activities, and we’re sending leads over, the sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a seller problem. Now I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead so they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? It’s the entire channel, right? It’s the entire sales journey, and we have to make sure that all of those things are working like an engine, right? All the cylinders are working at the same time in the same motion, to truly know what the problem may be. So that that’s really exposed a lot when we step in and start doing top of funnel activities, Christian Klepp  05:55 Absolutely, absolutely. And that segues into the next question, which I feel you’ve already answered to a certain extent. But where do you feel the true bottleneck lies, and that may be dependent on the company, right? Because each company maybe has a different set of challenges. And most importantly, okay, where does the bottleneck lie? And how do how can B2B Marketing teams help address the bottleneck and not be part of the bottleneck? Gabe Lullo  06:21 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s an eight step approach to sales. That’s what we call your sales journey, right? You have, obviously, you know, list building, and then we have, of course, outreach, we have qualification, we have discovery call, we have demo, we have, you know, closing or negotiating. We have client success. I mean, that’s the basic funnel, if you will. So is our, I should say, all of those things operating at the best of its ability. And what is broken, and it’s, it’s the old, you know, Henry Ford approach the assembly line. You know, there’s an assembly line and building a car, and there’s an assembly line in sales. And you have to know those steps, firstly, two, you have to know if those steps are working correctly, and figure out where that bottleneck is, and then, you know, take those blockers away so that those cars are flowing in and the production line doesn’t stop and we’re, you know, executing on the results that we need to serve our clients. Christian Klepp  07:16 100% agree. But now I’m gonna throw in another like wild card question, and I know you can handle it, right? When companies like yours come in to help organizations, right, there are times, even from my own experience, where the internal teams look at you and go, What are those guys doing here? Right? Like, is my job on the line. So they feel, they feel threatened, right by by somebody coming in and providing an external perspective. So I guess the question is, how do you deal with that kind of push back to help fix this leaky marketing funnel? Gabe Lullo  07:57 Yeah, it’s very important, right? Because a lot of companies come, you know, come in like us, and say, You know what, we’re going to come in here and try to solve the problem, or rip and replace or threaten the job. And it’s interesting, our point of contact, usually is the person who may be, you know, being fired because of our success. Well, we don’t want to approach it that way. So we set clear expectations that, hey, listen, we’re not here to rip and replace we are here to work as a parallel to what you’re existing doing, so we can A/B test and share best practices and be collective in those results. A lot of companies who have existing teams in place usually put us in scenarios where we’re bringing something new to market, or we’re reaching out to a market that is you know, you know, a new product line or a new segment, and we’re bringing that in. We do, however, see about a 20 to 30% increase in existing production when an outside partner comes in, because, again, we are sharing best practices. We’re all working together, but there is some pressure on the line when they see it. You know, another great player on the team playing ball. However, we did put a mechanism in place that really helps alleviate the fear, if you will, of that rip and replace scenario. Very unique thing to us, only a handful of companies I know about, of hundreds and if not thousands, that do what we do, do this. And here’s what it is, a lot of companies want to hire everything within and bring everything in house, in the sales development side within, because they graduate those people into account executives or closers or higher level performers or managers, so that graduation of career placement is there if you do it in house. So what we say is, you know what? You can have that great feeling of growing and building your team in house with us too. So all of our reps (representatives) who come work here, and all of our clients who enroll with us know that they can hire our reps and and bring them into their payroll and into their in house team with our help. So that’s a really good way of curving the fear, because they know, hey, this person who’s executing this outbound activity could be our next closer, and we can hire them to not take again, to not take away from what their current teams are doing, but to add to and grow that existing team they have. Christian Klepp  10:14 Absolutely, absolutely, and you know where I’m going with this, right? Because, like, you know, far too often, especially the higher ups that are not involved in the day to day, that are looking at this from the, I call it the Mount Olympus perspective, right, looking down at the land of the living, right? Like, why are you bringing in an external partner? Isn’t that your job to fix it? Right? But there are benefits to your point of, like, bringing in somebody that’s external, that’s not privy to, perhaps, some of the bias, some of the, certainly, the, certainly the organizational like dynamics and politics, which may, may be more detrimental than useful, right? Gabe Lullo  10:50 Yeah. I mean, we do punchy contracts, right? We have a six month minimum engagement. But so when we do that, you know, we’re saying, Hey, listen, we’re, we’re going to work with you for six months. We’re going to give it everything we got. And if it’s something you want to bring in-house from our team, great. If it’s you want to continue, great, or if you’ve learned a lot and you’re able to duplicate our efforts, also great too. So again, we’re not going in there saying, Oh, this is our world. Now. Get out of the way. Good luck, you know, and giving pink slips to people, it’s about really, again, how can we help? How can we assist? How can we hit this number? It’s not getting hit. There has to be reasons why. And let’s figure those numbers out, and let’s figure out the reasons why. And then, and then we move on, you know. So there’s short contracts, and then there’s very, very long contracts, you know, ZoomInfo has been a client off and on for the last decade. We’re doing a program right now where they just launched a lot of cool things, and we’re helping them so companies like that, size and stature, still come to outside help when necessary, when the timing is right and the fit is right. Christian Klepp  11:55 Amazing. Amazing. All right. Next question. So why do you believe rethinking how MQLs are defined and scored as the most strategic fix that a CMO can make, and what are some of these other key pitfalls that Marketers should avoid, and what should they be doing instead? I mean, let’s, let’s keep the conversation constructive here, right? Gabe Lullo  12:17 So defining and scoring MQLs is by far one of the first things, if not the most important thing, to start with, right? Because that is, again, the start of that assembly line. You know, garbage in, garbage out. And so if we’re not actually understanding why those MQLs are, the MQLs that we are saying they are, and what those triggering events are causing them to be considered. MQLs could truly dictate whether or not we’re receiving garbage into the funnel versus excellence and extraordinary leads and MQLs into the funnel. So again, it’s going back to that ICP, like we discussed earlier. It’s determining, okay, are these worthy and does it make sense to continue this, lead this MQL down the funnel, and will it produce results? Should it even be in the system at all? So knowing that up front, like I said earlier, it’s like the raw material. You know, if you have really bad raw material that you’re using to build your cars, you know, no matter how great it comes out at the other end, it’s not going to be a quality vehicle. So it’s that, it’s the raw material that we need to make sure that’s first and foremost, because it’s the start of the entire process. Christian Klepp  13:29 Yeah, yeah, no, that’s for sure. Because, you know, how many times have you heard that, right? Like the marketing team says, well, we’ve, we’ve got, we’ve generated the MQLs, we’ve passed them on to the sales team now, so we’re good, yeah, but that’s not where it stops, right? Like, so especially if the MQLs are, like, not qualified, right? Gabe Lullo  13:48 No, I couldn’t agree with you more. And again, having sales and marketing work synergistically in that determination is paramount. You know, so many companies, and it’s the old adage, and I think it’s almost a cliche now, because it’s been said so many times that you know, sales is throwing spears over the fence to marketing, and marketing is throwing another spear back to them, and they’re fighting back and forth over this wall. The deal is, you got to break down the wall and start having conversations. And again, sellers have to give feedback on why we’re seeing this to not be the right fit, and Marketers have to be curious and asking what those things may be happening on those conversations, so they can go find the MQLs that that is worthy. Christian Klepp  14:30 Absolutely, absolutely. And on that topic, what are some of these other pitfalls that marketers should be looking out for, and what should they be doing instead? Gabe Lullo  14:39 Yeah, I think what right now is that you have to really understand your channels. You know, a lot of Marketers right now are doubling down on things that may not be producing the results that they have been expecting. Maybe a year from now, two years from now, every company is different, every ICP is different, and every industry is different. I’ll give you an example. You know, if you’re reaching out to sellers and you know, red. Heads of revenue, you have to have a totally different approach than if you’re reaching out to VPs of technology and cyber security. Now that may sound basic, but if you were coming from a company and you’re in your head of marketing, and you’re coming from a company where your ICP and your persona is all tech based companies, or all tech based personas, and you go into a new industry or a new company, and you come with that lens. It’s not the right approach. You know, sellers like to pick up the phone. They think they’re customers. They use the phone all day long. They pick up the phone all the time. Maybe that’s the right channel, right? CTOs (Chief Technology Officers), CIOs (Chief Information Officers), CSOs (Chief Security Officers), they are not usually picking up the phone. Maybe they’re their channels significantly different, and so you have to realize, understand what your persona is, so you can do marketing activities towards that total addressable market that resonate and hit home and get their attention. And it could be just as much as where they live in regards to where, where do they associate with, what, what channel are they living on? Are they people that pick up the phone? Are they ones that live on LinkedIn? Are they ones that go to Instagram? Are they ones that go to conferences? Where is your audience? And know that first and then go talk to them? Christian Klepp  16:10 That’s definitely a great insight. You know it. I know it. The problem is that there’s so many teams out there that skip this part, right? Like that, like that. That detailed breakdown you just gave us about the different let’s call them like, the different personas, the different behaviors, the different channels, like, Why do you think a lot of teams out there skip this part? Is it because of the the time crunch, the pressure to deliver immediately is all of the above? Gabe Lullo  16:37 Yeah, I think, you know, there’s a lot of boardrooms out there. They come out with this unique product, and then with all they do is they do is they look at the TAM, what’s the total addressable market? But that’s like saying, I want to go catch a tuna fish. But you know, let’s just look at the entire ocean. Like, okay, we have to be more specific. Where do the tuna fish actually swim? Where part of Do they like warm water? Do they like the coast? Are they more towards New Zealand, or are they up towards the Massachusetts? So you have to know where your school of fish are. If you want to go fishing, you can’t just look at the entire ocean as the market. And I think narrowing it down to understand patterns and where people are so you can go talk to them is the right approach, versus this spray and pray mentality that I feel marketing has been living in for many, many years, and now it’s becoming more self evident because of AI, right? Because AI can tell us a lot of these things. AI can do a lot of analysis and research, and it’s giving us insights that we’ve never been able to really see before because of the speed and quickness of it. And so I think we are getting to a point, and I’m hopeful that we are more specific with our total addressable markets in new companies specifically that may not have the experience or the capacity like they used to. And I think it’s exciting. Christian Klepp  16:37 Oh Gabe, you just open the door to another question there. Man. Gabe Lullo  16:37 Like, start with an A. Christian Klepp  16:37 Yeah, it starts with an A. But, like, you know, since you brought it up, I’ve got to ask AI, right? Gabe Lullo  16:37 Yeah. Christian Klepp  16:37 And in terms of, like, helping to fix a leaky marketing funnel, how do you from your experience and your perspective, how do you think AI is helpful, and how is it harmful? Gabe Lullo  17:23 Sure. I mean double edged sword, right? We love AI. We accept it. We know it’s here. We’re not scared of it. We’re not running away from it, but we’re also not ripping and replacing things too abruptly with with the implementation of it, either. For instance, I’ll give you real examples. Are we telling AI to go make cold calls? Well, no, it’s illegal, technically. Secondly, are we using it, though, on the flip side, to train our reps on how to effectively handle great questions and objections through an AI sparring partner? Yeah, we are, and it’s amazing at it. So we actually have our reps when they’re brand new and onboarding or launching into a new campaign. We program the robot, the AI right to be able to have conversations in real life time with our reps, to literally spar with them. And it’s like practice. It’s a sparring partner before they go live onto a campaign, and it prepares them immensely before the live show, before they’re before they’re active, right on the campaign. So this is one way we’re doing it. Other ways, obviously email, messaging, obviously personalization, obviously research, you know, pre-call research, account research, determining who’s picking up the phone when they pick up the phone, how many times does it take to call them? You know, time zones? What’s the best time to call them? And it’s crazy what it could do, but it’s really, really helpful. But it’s not a crutch. It’s an assistant, and that’s how we’re approaching it. It’s not replacing human to human communication. If it was. Maybe you and I would just have our AI avatars do this podcast right instead of we’ll be on a beach somewhere, maybe we’ll be there in the future. I’m not predicting it, but I will say there’s a huge, significant role it plays right now, but it is not a role that’s, in my opinion, supposed to replace everything. It can replace a lot, but not everything. Christian Klepp  20:20 Absolutely. I mean, it certainly requires a lot of like, human intervention, right? And it’s and it’s constantly learning, and it’s learning quickly, which I think is to its benefit, to its detriment. And I think that’s, that’s your point as well. There’s a lot of stuff out there that’s AI generated that just looks off, starting with videos even, even like in I don’t know if you’ve dabbled with Google notebook, right? It can, it can take all that content and turn it into an audio file. And it’s scary. How real it sounds. Gabe Lullo  20:54 It is pretty scary. And I have seen tools like that. I love there’s one right now, where it’s actually tracking not even what someone is saying, but how they’re saying it. So tonality, right is a huge piece of communication, as we know, and so it’s literally listening to calls and sales calls, and not just again, we’ve seen it before, like, you know, Gong and others, where it’s telling, hey, maybe say this. Don’t say that, but it’s also giving that score of how they’re delivering that message, which, in my world, is huge because, you know, I could read a script, or I can, you know, have an amazing performance, and that’s how we approach, you know, the way we communicate on a phone call. So that is why we’re so excited. Because there’s new tools coming out all the time that are really, really impactful, for sure. Christian Klepp  21:42 Absolutely, absolutely. So you’ve touched on this a little bit like in the past couple of minutes, but explain how market research and strategy help to develop a solid marketing funnel, not a leaky one. Gabe Lullo  21:55 Yeah. I mean, I think it’s your playbook, right? You know, you have to have a built out playbook, and it’s your guide. And it’s not just important to go to market with a playbook, but it’s also going to market to scale, right? You know, once you get it to work, the ever everything after that is, how do we duplicate and how do we scale? So the playbook is that design is the architecture behind your strategy. So when we do start pouring fuel on the fire and we’re adding people, we’re adding leads, we’re adding workflows, we’re adding everything outside of that, we still go back to the playbook. It’s like the Constitution, right? Everything based off that in our country. I know we’re in different ones, but my point is is, is you have a framework, right, that we go off of and that playbook is so vital to our importance of market research gives us a great understanding of where that playbook is built and how it’s designed and how it’s architected, and that’s how we that’s how we do it here. Christian Klepp  22:55 And even how the playbook can be iterated, right? Because let’s not forget that it’s not written in stone. Gabe Lullo  23:01 Evolving. Yeah, absolutely. I do want to warn people, though, evolve with time. Be patient, right? You know, marketing, sales, development, it’s not a light switch. Yeah, I always say it’s like boiling water, right? So a watch pot technically does boil. It’s just painful to watch. So, but the point is, is that you have to give it enough time to see if that playbook is yielding results. What you don’t want to do is change the play, you know, too many times in the middle of the game, because then you look confused and confused. People do nothing, right? So, yes, is it evolving? Does it pivot? Does it grow? Do you do you change things up, of course. But also you want to do it in a tactful timeline to make sure that it is truly a working playbook or not. Christian Klepp  23:47 Absolutely, absolutely. And you brought something up, and I have to ask this, this next question, it’s… We know, from a marketing point of view, that rolling out these initiatives and seeing the results takes time, yeah, but we’ve had, I’ve certainly had this experience in B2B, that there are people, again, at the top, that don’t have oversight into the day to day, and probably also don’t understand quite how the process works, that don’t have that patience, right, that are telling you, like, hurry up and deliver like, we want results right now. So what do you say to those, I guess the people that are doubting that this initiative needs more time than they think it does. Gabe Lullo  24:30 Yeah. I mean, I think looking at benchmarks and case studies and past results is very important, like I said, Back to the boiling of water. You can show a thermometer as well, like you can see, is it working well? You can put a thermometer in a boiling pot of water and watch the temperature go up, right? And it gives you a clear indication and forecast, if you will, that you’re going to achieve boiling point eventually. It’s not just again, you put the water in and then. And you all of a sudden, measure boiling. You have to measure along the way, and that’s we want to do. So what the ways we do it specifically is, if we’re working on a campaign that is almost a look alike campaign to another company, maybe it’s in the same industry, same ICP, you know, same your size, same scope, we can look at that historical result and say, Hey, by the way, if we do these, these, these and these, you’re going to we’re going to expect boiling point at this time based on a company that’s very similar to yours. Now, is it identical? No, maybe that company has really bad sellers we talked about. Maybe that company doesn’t really care about content and they’re just missing the boat there. Maybe they have a crappy website, like, I don’t, there’s different levers that could, you know, alter the recipe, but we can absolutely make highly educated guesses, as opposed to just trying to wing it or give false expectations. Christian Klepp  25:54 Yeah, yeah, no, that’s absolutely right, all right. I mean, you’ve given us a lot of, like, recommendations, a lot of actionable tips. So walk us through, and I know it varies from company to company and case by case, but walk us through the process of how you actually fix a leaky marketing funnel. Like, what are the steps? What are those key components that absolutely have to be in that process? Gabe Lullo  26:14 Yeah, you have to, you know, inspect what you expect. You have to understand what your messaging is, and you have to A/B test it all the time. I A/B test everything, whether it’s data vendors, whether it’s email messaging, whether it’s LinkedIn content, what you have, obviously mechanisms, depending on what tech you’re working with, what vendors you’re working with, or your history or historical results are to give you grades and scores and A/B testing everything. So if you have, you know campaigns that are running that are successful, you should be able to know how to measure that. That’s what’s so important. So you have to have inspect, inspection tools in place across everything you’re doing on those campaigns to tell you, Hey, this is broken, this is leaky. This isn’t working. Or on the flip side, this is crushing right now. This is totally resonating right now, and we’re loving these, seeing these numbers, and then pour fuel on that fire and focus on that and remove the other ones, and still A/B test, because you always want to keep getting better. So A/B test everything, define the leaks, and then try to fix those leaks as fast as possible. Christian Klepp  27:23 Fantastic, fantastic. And because we’re talking about marketing funnels, I mean, like, I can’t help myself but ask you, okay, but what about metrics? Because that’s something that people want to see, right? But I’m not talking about like, let’s, let’s come up with this like, laundry list of like metrics, and you go down this deep rabbit hole. Like, what are the metrics that you would say, or you would advise B2B Marketers to look at to say, like, okay, we’re trying to fix the leaky marketing funnel here, and these metrics will help you to indicate that there is progress. Gabe Lullo  27:53 Yeah. I mean, it’s harder now than ever before to metric things out, and it’s because of tech that’s kind of getting in the way. You know, for instance, in an email campaign, there’s been some rules and regulations in the last recent years that prevents us from seeing whether or not there’s clicks and opens that are happening on email campaigns. I’ve actually removed many of those triggers completely away from our campaigns, because it’s preventing deliverability, and it’s preventing our ability to keep domains healthy. So there are a lot of moving parts right now that’s happening because of these AI filtration tools. I just heard Google just released that it’s going to now put disclaimers and emails saying that this was written by AI. And so there’s it’s ever involving so depending on I guess when your listeners are hearing this, it may be completely different in a year, but I will tell you that there are definitely things that we need to metric and we need to have KPIs for. But I think the priority of what we used to measure two, three years ago, is significantly different than what we measure today, because of those rules and regulations. So if we’re talking about emails, I want to know what we’re sending, who we’re sending it to, who obviously is responding. What are those responses look like? Is it turning to an actual lead? Are we turning on warm leads, or are we just looking at set meetings? You know, it’s interesting, right? There is only about 2 to 3% of the market ever wants to truly buy, and they’re in buying mode, and I think a lot of companies are just looking for those people, and about 20% of the market is actually interested in buying and we turn that entire segment off. It’s about 10 times more people. But if we can warm the nurture them correctly, and message them correctly, that’s where the rubber meets the road, and that’s where your gold is. I like to analogize everything. So, yeah, when you have a green apple, right? What do you do with the green apple? You put it on the window sill, and then the sun on the windowsill warms it up. Now, that doesn’t mean you just throw out the apple. That means you have a lot of opportunity. You just have. To nurture, and you be patient. And you have to know that timing is everything in business. So if you’re just looking for the red apples, you’re only gonna get 3% if you’re looking for green apples that turn into red apples, now you’re getting 25% so focus on the 25, be patient. Fix those leaky buckets, of course. A/B test, and then then you measure. Christian Klepp  30:20 Yeah or you get yourself an apple orchard. You mentioned one keyword there, nurture, right? I think that’s the one that’ll I see a lot of, like people in sales and even in marketing, right? They just don’t take that time to nurture those leads. They close in. I keep saying they close in for the kill too fast, right? Gabe Lullo  30:44 Yeah. I mean, go back to that food analogy, that the fruit analogy, again. Christian Klepp  30:49 Sure. Gabe Lullo  30:49 I’m on a roll with that. Christian Klepp  30:50 Please. Gabe Lullo  30:50 It’s the low hanging fruit cliche, right? Christian Klepp  30:52 Yes. Gabe Lullo  30:52 Everyone focuses on the low hanging fruit. They’re not focusing on what else is part of that harvest. They’re not focusing on the nurturing. They’re not focused on watering. They’re not focusing on circling back, following up, checking in, providing value in those checks. Not just say, Hey, I’m following up, no, provide value in those seconds, right? And that’s again, that’s where you see excellence happen, you know? And there’s a lot of young, and I don’t mean to be age, but like tenure, people that are experienced, that are in these experience roles right now, and I feel that they’re just trying to get that quick answer and that quick response. And we’re in this like dopamine, like, you know, hit like social media environment right now. Not to go off topic, but I think people are not again, they’re in this microwave society, and they don’t understand the value of nurturing. And if you do and you treat that part seriously, wow, it usually is a windfall at that time. Christian Klepp  31:47 Absolutely, absolutely. It’s an art, a skill, a craft, isn’t it? Right? All of you love, okay, my friend, we come to the point in the conversation where we’re talking about actionable tips, and Gabe, you’ve given us plenty, all right, but just think of this kind of like a recap. If there was somebody listening to this conversation that you and I are having, and you want them to walk away with three to five things that they that they can take action on right now, when it comes to fixing a leaky marketing funnel, what would they be? Gabe Lullo  32:17 Well, I think the best thing is you have to really decide if you have the right people in place, right, and are they? And it doesn’t mean that they are the ones that are going to bring it home. It doesn’t mean that they’re they don’t need support and training and love, like, do they have the commitment? Do they have good experience? Are they willing to roll up their sleeves and get get a little dirty, and if you feel like you have a great team in place of people that are ready to get to work and solve some problems. I think that is literally step one. Step two is, do we have the messaging in the mark, in the ICP nailed down? We really need to know that, because, again, there’s no point of building a campaign if you don’t know who you’re sending it to. And then, thirdly, you really have to make sure that you’re willing to A/B test. It’s hard enough to build a campaign, but it’s much more difficult to build two or three campaigns. Run three campaigns, right as opposed to one, and score each of them to determine what’s working, what’s effective, and what’s not, and then you pivot based on those results. So I think finding a great team is basic and fundamental. Finding a great ice or determining a great ICP is before you build the messaging and then measure the message across multiple campaigns, and then you should be on your way Christian Klepp  33:29 And test, test, test, everything, right? Gabe Lullo  33:34 Yes, it’s great. It could be working. It’s exciting, but maybe there’s a significantly more effective way of doing it, even though it’s still working, and let the data make those decisions for you and drive everything based off data driven decisions, and that’s how you should be operating. Christian Klepp  33:51 Absolutely, absolutely. All right. Here comes the soapbox question, a status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why? Gabe Lullo  34:05 Yeah, I think the big thing right now, and I have to just kind of talk about my space, because you said in my industries, like, there’s a lot of, you know, people out there soapboxing, to be exact, on things that are dead or not. And I will tell you that, you know, cold calling is dead, emailing is dead. You know, LinkedIn is dead, or all of these things and and when you peel back the onion, you notice that those individuals who are saying that users are trying to sell a book or something, and nothing against selling books, but it sounds like there’s a personal agenda and not actual operational intelligence that is dictating what they’re saying. So to your point about testing everything, don’t assume something is not going to work just because someone said it on the internet. Test it and then decide if it’s going to work. And it may surprise you in a big, big way. Christian Klepp  34:56 I truly believe that, man, I truly believe that. I mean to your point. About, like, email being dead. I mean, I did close one client who was a guest on the show, and it took me a year to close, but I closed it through email. Gabe Lullo  35:09 Yeah. Christian Klepp  35:11 Right. And it’s to your point, it’s sending, sending that person articles that were relevant to that person’s industry and saying, like, Hey, I read this the other day, what are your thoughts on this? And here’s my take. What do you think? Gabe Lullo  35:24 That is the best way to do an email, right? You know, we do a lot of content and on social media, we do a lot of podcasting, posts on LinkedIn, but that’s all great, but where the rubber meets the road is you take that post and you send it in an email or a direct message and say, Hey, listen. This made me think of our last conversation, and I really liked the way that this person mentioned this. Do you think you know that there is, is the timing right here to reopen this conversation, and you feel like the problem is still existing in your world, and love to see if we can solve it for you, that type of content, that type of message, that type of verbiage at the right time in a nurture campaign like we discussed, close one business, right? That’s how it works. Christian Klepp  36:08 Absolutely, absolutely okay. Here comes the bonus question, and for those of you that are listening to the audio version, Gabe’s got two guitars right behind him, so I’m just gonna go on a hunch here that he likes playing guitar, right? So the question is, if you had the opportunity to, like, go on a tour with your favorite guitarist/musician, who would it be, and where would you go? Gabe Lullo  36:36 Wow, I love this question. I do play the guitar. I’m a bet big avid music player. Love Rock as well, but all genres, I will say, in real life, we just actually my family, my wife and daughter and I went to go see Oasis reunion tour, which was in Toronto, actually, out of all places. Christian Klepp  36:53 That’s right, you mentioned it. Gabe Lullo  36:54 Yeah, we went to see that. It was epic. Obviously, the brothers have been apart for many years. A lot of drama there. But yeah, you know, I’m old enough to remember their original songs, so it was cool to reminisce and introduce my daughter to that music, which was pretty cool. We’re gonna go see Paul McCartney in a few weeks. He’s on tour now and never seen him or I’m a big fan of The Beatles, and I think that would be really exciting to tour with him, obviously. And I think those are definitely both of those right there kind of sum up the type of music that I resonate with. Christian Klepp  37:26 Amazing, amazing. I just remember, like, this is, this is a couple of years ago. I think he’s already passed away, but Compay Segundo. Gabe Lullo  37:33 Oh yeah. Christian Klepp  37:34 Buena Vista Social Club. And the guy was in his 90s, and they were, they had a concert, and they they brought him up in stage in his wheelchair, helped him get up, get out of that wheelchair, and they gave him that guitar, and off he went, Man, like, Gabe Lullo  37:48 Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing, man, that’s amazing. Christian Klepp  37:53 Gabe, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. So please quick intro to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Gabe Lullo  38:03 Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way to connect with me directly. I post twice a day, every day. We’re very bullish with our content. There’s a lot of free material there. We have a newsletter, so please take a look at that, and if you like what you see, and he heard today, you know, reach out, and I’ll definitely be responsive. And you know, anyone who is looking or struggling with the after-sales motion, which are after marketing motion, that sales development function, that’s where we play, and we’d love to look at what you’re looking for and see how we can help. Christian Klepp  38:33 Sounds good. Gabe, once again, thank you so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Gabe Lullo  38:38 Thanks, Christian. Christian Klepp  38:39 All right. Bye for now.

The SaaS Revolution Show with Alex Theuma and Kady Srinivasan, CMO at Freshworks and former CMO at You.com. Kady shares how she rebuilt the You.com GTM strategy from the ground up after multiple pivots. Rather than trying to fix broken SaaS playbooks, she replaced them with a multithreaded marketing model that 10x'd MQLs and grew ACV by 86% in just two quarters. Alex and Kady discuss: - Why traditional GTM playbooks break down in the AI era - What multithreaded marketing actually looks like in practice - How to structure marketing teams for ownership and speed - The role of prompt marketers and AI-native workflows - Using AI as an execution accelerator, not a strategy shortcut - The differences between selling to AI natives and AI laggards - The reality of operating with a complex, multi-tool GTM stack       Check out the other ways SaaStock is helping SaaS founders move their business forward: 

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, marketing veteran Ed Locher pulls back the curtain on B2B marketing's biggest lie: that the MQL machine actually drives growth. As CMO of PureFacts Financial Solutions and author of "Digital Transformation: People, Process and Technology," Ed reveals why 15 years of marketing automation created a sugar rush that's now crashing, and how AI can help fix it without repeating the same mistakes. This is a no-holds-barred conversation about emotional connection, the 95% of buyers marketers ignore, and why marketing tenure averages just 18 months. Four Key Takeaways: The MQL Mirage Is Built on a Lie 8:56Marketing automation promised accountability through MQLs, but overdelivering on MQL targets quarter after quarter never translated to actual revenue growth. The entire system targets only the 5% of the market ready to buy right now—ignoring the 95% who need demand creation, not demand capture. B2B Buying Committees Have Tripled in Size 16:30The buying committee for enterprise B2B purchases has exploded from 5 people to 16. You can't build credibility and trust with 16 stakeholders through email sequences—you need emotional connection and personalized storytelling that speaks to each person's specific drivers (CFO cares about ROI, compliance cares about regulations, operations cares about not making headlines). AI Raises the Floor, Not the Ceiling 29:59AI protects terrible marketers from themselves by raising the quality floor, but it hasn't raised the bar for great marketing. The real opportunity lies 3-4 standard deviations above the mean—where human empathy, emotional triggers, and genuine understanding of customer pain create outsized impact that AI can't replicate. Marketing Attribution Is a Myth 44:13There will never be a "cast iron steel rod of attribution" connecting marketing activities directly to purchases. Marketers who work for leadership that doesn't understand this are doomed to 18-month tenures, chasing MQL targets that deliver short-term sugar rushes followed by revenue crashes. The rare CEO or investor who recognizes this broken motion is the problem—not the marketer—creates space for real growth. Quote of the Show (44:13):"There will never be a cast iron steel rod of attribution that says marketing did X, which led to this person buying something. It just doesn't work that way.” — Ed Locher Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we’re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome. Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval Ways to connect with Ed Locher: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/edlocher/ Company Website: https://purefacts.com How to get more Disruption/Interruption: Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlDSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea that maybe your website should actually reject leads (yes, really). Buckle up for hot takes on keyword worship, the death of MQLs, and why your Rolex store strategy is all wrong.Featuring from BX Studio...Jacob Sussman, CEONikiya Griffith, Director of Organic GrowthGrace Arrese, Partnerships AssociateMore from this episode Why adding SEO keywords is like putting ketchup on a wagyu steakThe real reason your website converts trash leads (hint: it's not the copy)What Rolex stores know about lead qualification that B2B marketers don'tThe "Irish Exit" messaging framework that'll change how you write foreverWhy tracking MQLs is like measuring your height to lose weightThe CEO wrecking ball effect (and why it destroys every website eventually)How QuickBooks became a cautionary tale for AI-obsessed marketersThe Writer's Wiki secret that could save product marketing 20 hours a weekWhy your anti-ICP strategy matters more than your ICPThe shocking truth about who actually owns your website (spoiler: it's not who you think)Time Stamps00:00 Opening & Attendee Check-in01:00 Real Humans vs AI Note-takers Discussion02:00 Setting the Stage: PMMs vs Non-PMMs03:00 The Main Question: Who Should Own the Website?03:45 Eric's Hot Take: Product Marketing Should Own It04:45 Nikia's Counter: Joint Ownership is Key05:45 Website Ownership and Blame Discussion07:00 Real-World Website Conversion Problems08:30 The Writer's Wiki Solution11:00 Dream Relationships Between PMM and SEO13:00 Keyword Lists vs Message-First Approach16:00 Website Design and FAQ Strategy18:00 The CRO/CEO Acronym Confusion20:00 QuickBooks AI Positioning Disaster22:00 Who Has Final Say on Messaging?26:30 The CEO Wrecking Ball Problem29:00 The Irish Exit Messaging Analogy31:00 Metrics That Matter: SQLs vs MQLs33:00 The Rolex Store Anti-ICP Strategy35:00 Enterprise Positioning and Deterrence38:00 Nikia's Counter: Why More Metrics Matter41:00 The Internal Echo Chamber Problem45:00 GEO vs SEO: The New Frontier48:00 Closing Thoughts and FarewellHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

MQLs are dead…or are they? Daniel sits down with Emily Popson, VP of Marketing at CallRail, to unpack the biggest pieces of bad advice marketers keep seeing on LinkedIn and what the real truth is behind MQLs, attribution, dark social, and AI-powered data. Emily shares: - Why the war on MQLs is misleading thousands of marketers  - How to fix your lead definitions without rebuilding your entire ops system - Why attribution isn't “garbage.” And, what metrics do CMOs actually want to see? The answer might be the ones you've been leaving out.  This episode is for Marketers who are tired of LinkedIn hot takes and want to understand what actually drives revenue.  CallRail is the lead engagement platform built for marketers who need clean attribution, smarter insights, and zero missed leads. From AI-powered call tracking and conversation intelligence to a 24/7 AI voice agent, CallRail helps teams maximize every inbound touchpoint and convert more leads into customers. https://www.callrail.com/proveit?utm_campaign=q4_2025_marketing_millennials_podcast&utm_medium=thirdparty_advertising&utm_source=marketingmillennials   Follow Emily: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypopson/ Follow Daniel: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-murray-marketing/ Sign up for The Marketing Millennials newsletter: https://themarketingmillennials.com/ Daniel is a Workweek friend, working to produce amazing podcasts. To find out more, visit: https://workweek.com/

A CMO Confidential Interview with Tom Stein, the Chairman and founder of Stein and Jann Schwarz, Senior Director of Marketplace Innovation at LinkedIn and founder of Think tank, The B2B Institute, who join us to discuss the 2025 Brand-to- Demand Maturity and the B2B Buyability studies. Tom and Jann share results showing the need to integrate brand and performance marketing in an era when the marketing funnel has collapsed needs fundamental re-thinking and Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) are still a key measure (in spite of data showing they've lost their usefulness). Tom and Jann explain why nearly all survey respondents acknowledge a problem but only 20% are taking action. Key topics include: why a good product or service are now "table stakes”; how buyer confidence, human connection and customer experience have become key Buyability differentiators; and the belief that B2B creative is way behind B2C on average. Tune in to hear why “demand-focused marketing" was one of the greatest brand misdirects of all time and a fabulous story of an alter boy accidentally dropping the Baby Jesus. The Truth Behind the Curtain in B2B: Brand + Demand, MQLs, and “Buyability” with Tom Stein & Jan SchwartzDescription:Mike Linton sits down with Tom Stein (Stein) and Jan Schwartz (LinkedIn's B2B Institute) to unpack new ANA research on brand–demand maturity and a bold operating model they call “buyability.” They cover why 80% of marketers say integration matters but aren't doing it, why MQLs are failing modern buying groups, how to financialize creative and brand, and what CEOs/boards should actually measure to accelerate revenue. Chapters:00:00 Intro & guest setup02:36 Why a brand–demand maturity study now05:36 The 80% integration gap07:17 Org design: why teams move slowly09:36 MQLs under fire (and better alternatives)10:45 Creative quality in B2B: reality check13:34 ServiceNow, Idris Elba, and distinctive assets15:01 The CEO/CFO/Board disconnect19:00 “Buyability” explained: becoming easier to buy22:12 Brand as a full-funnel commercial driver23:40 The funnel is broken; AI ups the stakes26:59 Playing offense: fewer, better buyer-group leads28:20 Financializing the case for change29:56 The budget stat that shocked everyone31:41 What to do now: category fame, trust, real metrics34:41 Funniest stories and practical parting advice37:35 Wrap & where to find more episodesTags:B2B marketing,brand and demand,buyability,MQL,pipeline velocity,CMO Confidential,Mike Linton,Tom Stein,Jan Schwartz,LinkedIn B2B Institute,ANA,B2B brand,B2B demand gen,marketing measurement,go to market,Salesforce,ServiceNow,Idris Elba,B2B creative,category fame,board metrics,CFO,CEO,CRO,sales alignment,MarTech,lead gen,buyer groups,brand strategy,revenue growthSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Simple 3-Step B2B Demand Generation Strategy for 2026

In this OnBase episode, host Chris Moody reconnects with marketing visionary Jon Miller for a deep dive into the evolution of B2B marketing and the transformative role of artificial intelligence in shaping the future of go-to-market strategy.Jon shares his remarkable journey, from studying physics to co-founding Marketo and Engagio, joining Demandbase, and now launching his next venture at the cutting edge of AI. He reflects on the lessons learned from past technology revolutions, drawing parallels between the early internet era and today's AI boom.Listeners gain an inside look at how AI is fundamentally changing both software innovation and buyer behavior, why marketers must shift from quantity to quality-driven personalization, and what it takes to build organizations that thrive in an AI-first world.This episode is packed with insights for anyone navigating marketing's AI transformation, from creative storytellers to data-driven tacticians.Key TakeawaysThe Biggest Shift Since the Internet AI isn't just another tech trend, it's as transformative as the rise of the internet. We're entering a new era where software can do things we never imagined, enabling businesses that couldn't exist before.The “Jagged Frontier” of AI AI excels at some tasks and fails at others. The key is daily experimentation, understanding where AI amplifies your strengths and where human oversight is indispensable.From Quantity to Quality The goal isn't to send more emails, it's to deliver more relevant experiences. AI's true power lies in helping marketers achieve genuine one-to-one personalization through smarter orchestration, not mass automation.The Human – AI Partnership Future success lies in collaboration: humans provide creativity and empathy; AI handles data, optimization, and orchestration. Together, they create outcomes neither could achieve alone.Culture Determines AI Success Technology adoption starts with leadership. Organizations must build AI fluency into their culture, encouraging training, experimentation, and open sharing of prompts and insights.Emotion Drives Storytelling Even in B2B, emotion matters. Great storytelling taps into curiosity, excitement, and drama, whether through stealth launches, community intrigue, or relatable human experiences.Marketing Measurement Is Broken B2B marketers are still judged on MQLs and short-term results, despite the nonlinear reality of buying behavior. We need new ways to measure marketing that reflect its true long-term impact.Quotes“Don't use AI like a faster typewriter. Use it as a new form of intelligence that helps you think better.”Tech recommendationsDescript – For seamless AI-powered video and podcast editing.Crosby.ai – An AI-enabled law firm combining automation with human legal review.Resource recommendationsBooksThe Advantage by Patrick Lencioni – A guide to building healthy, high-performing organizations.Setting the Table by Danny Meyer – Lessons on culture and leadership from the hospitality world.Turn the Ship Around by L. David Marquet – Empowerment and leadership through intentional communication.NewsletterAlmost Timely Newsletter by Chris Penn.Kieran Flanahan Newsletter on Medium.Shout-outsChris Penn – AI strategist and co-founder of Trust Insights.Kieran Flanagan – SVP, Marketing, AI & GTM (SVP) and B2B growth expert and AI prompt innovator.Kathleen Schwab – Author of Marketing in the Great Big Messy World.About the GuestJon Miller is a marketing technology pioneer and serial founder. He co-founded Marketo, Engagio, and later served as CMO of Demandbase, helping redefine how B2B companies go to market. Now building his next AI-focused startup, Jon also advises tech companies on strategy and growth. A frequent keynote speaker and author of The Definitive Guides to ABM and Marketing Automation, he's been recognized as one of the world's top B2B marketers.Connect with Jon.

Good Friction vs Bad Friction in B2B Marketing: Stop Wasting Buyer EffortToo many teams removed every barrier and called it “buyer-first.” The result? Leaky funnels, vanity MQLs, and zero commercial insight. In this episode, we show how to use good friction to earn trust, capture context, and actually help buyers make better decisions (without annoying them).We (George Coudounaris & Kevin Chen) break down where friction belongs in your buyer journey, when gating makes sense, and how to turn forms, events, and content into useful market intel. We also dig into progressive profiling and cataloguing so Sales get timing, permission, and real-world context they can act on.We'll show standout moments like: why you should stop gating case studies, how to design “good friction” for community signups and workshops, and a simple green-yellow-red scoring method to fix bad friction fast.Tune in and learn:+ The difference between good vs bad friction (and how to spot each)+ When to gate (community, events, newsletters) and when not to (case studies)+ How to use progressive profiling to “catalogue” vendors, renewal dates, and permission to follow upIf you're a small B2B team, this episode is a must-watch. You'll walk away with a friction map you can fix this week, a scoring system to prioritise changes, and a smarter way to feed Sales with timing-based insights.-----------------------------------------------------

How can B2B marketers succeed when every deal involves 11 or more stakeholders?This special Hard Corps Marketing Show takeover episode features an episode from the Connect To Market podcast, hosted by Casey Cheshire. In this conversation, Casey sits down with Adam Needles, CEO and Co-Founder of ANNUITAS, Inc., to unpack the game-changing concept of Buyer Unit Demand (BUD). Adam challenges the outdated reliance on MQLs and ABM and introduces a new framework for engaging the full buying unit, with multiple stakeholders who have diverse roles and needs throughout the journey.He shares how marketers can design conversation tracks that align with real-world buying dynamics and explains why buyer-led orchestration, not sales-led tactics, is the key to driving meaningful engagement and revenue. Adam also discusses the organizational shifts and mindset changes required to fully adopt this buyer-first approach.In this episode, we cover:Why MQLs and ABM fall short in complex B2B buying environmentsHow to map conversation tracks around stakeholder needs and behaviorThe importance of aligning marketing, sales, and automation tools to the buyer journeyWhy focus beats scale when prioritizing content and engagement strategies

We're joined by guest Niall Sullivan to discuss why MQLs (at least the traditional way of defining MQLs) suck and how to shift to more demand gen and buyer-friendly marketing practices. We chat about: • Moving away from gating content and focusing on educating buyers• Measuring marketing's impact through pipeline and revenue metrics instead of MQLs• Showing more product details and UI to help buyers understand the value• Creating content that serves prospects, not just internal team needs• Setting proper expectations when making big marketing strategy shiftsNiall drinks a traditional British ale

Ashley Lewin has audited 30+ companies in her career and seen the same pattern: marketing teams stuck chasing MQLs while revenue stalls. In this episode, Carolyn and Trevor dig into Ashley's perspective on why MQLs keep organizations trapped in short-term thinking, and how she's applying those lessons now as Head of Marketing at Aligned.We talk through what it takes to stand up a marketing function from scratch at a hybrid PLG + sales-assisted company, why implementing HubSpot's Lead object was a foundational bet, and how “fail fast” disqualification changed the way BDRs and sales managers manage their pipeline. Ashley also shares her playbook for winning executive buy-in: showing CEOs a predictable growth equation that replaces lead volume with qualified pipeline and product activation.What You'll Learn:Why 30+ audits taught Ashley that MQLs create waste, not growth.How to split the funnel: PLG activations vs. sales-assisted pipeline.The power of clean infrastructure: standing up a true lead object in HubSpot.Why “fail fast” leads to better conversion, stronger feedback loops, and less waste.How to navigate culture change so sales isn't afraid to close lost.Why exec scorecards (not dashboards) determine whether change sticks.If your growth plan still relies on lead math, you're running on outdated assumptions. Ashley shows how to build a system that actually scales revenue, not just reporting.

If your outbound is optimised for meetings, not conversations, you're burning cash and trust.We sit down with Joey Gilkey (CEO, Titan X) and Adem Manderovic (Closed Circuit Selling, CRO School) to rebuild B2B outbound so it actually drives revenue. We unpack why the SDR-AE factory failed, how to get 25% connect rates, and how to use first-party signals to guide timing, ads, and follow up.Joey shows why he pays SDRs to create completed conversations and rigorous disposition buckets. Adem explains cataloguing and channel validation so marketing stops guessing and starts planning around real timing. We dig into audience activation using opt-in texts and VSLs, and why “buyer intent” data isn't the shortcut you think it is.Tune in and learn:+ A practical B2B outbound strategy built on conversations and 6 disposition buckets+ Why the SDR-AE model and Predictable Revenue broke outbound (and what replaces it)+ Why pipeline coverage and meeting quotas mislead teams, and what to measure insteadThis is a must-watch if you're a B2B revenue leader. Stop chasing low-value meetings and start engineering high-value conversations that inform ads, timing, and deals.-----------------------------------------------------

If your board asks “Why is pipeline down?” and your opportunity dashboards only say marketing-sourced vs. SDR-sourced (AKA the four-funnel model), you're stuck with surface-level data and left guessing at fixes instead of diagnosing the problem. The real story lives between engagement and opportunity, the unmeasured factory floor where prospecting happens (or dies). In this episode, Carolyn and Amber show how to rip the lid off that black box, swap vanity volume for "causal" metrics, and find the repeatable patterns that actually manufacture pipeline.Expect blunt takes, practical questions to bring to RevOps tomorrow, and real outcomes from teams who've made the shift (e.g., win rates jumping from ~13% to ~24% and easier budget approvals once the black box is illuminated).What You'll Learn:[02:20] Why “source” reporting hides the truth (and fuels misalignment)[08:00] The Pipeline Black Box: measuring the in-between (triggers → first meeting → opp)[15:00] Pattern-spotting: sequences that create pipeline vs. waste[17:30] Visual walkthrough: opening the black box[20:55] Prospecting as its own lifecycle: timing, activity load, DQs, velocity[26:10] From more leads to more lift (conversion, speed, win rate 13%→24%)[36:00] Turning visibility into stronger board stories & budget wins[38:25] 3 questions to expose your black box this weekWho This Episode ForCROs, CMOs, Demand leaders, and RevOps owners ready to graduate from MQLs/last-touch to a factory-style measurement system.

Whatagraph has evolved from a bootstrap marketing reporting tool to a comprehensive marketing intelligence platform processing data from 12+ sources for marketing teams globally. With over $10 million in funding and a decade of iteration, the Lithuania-based company recently launched "Whatagraph 3.0"—a fundamental shift from pure sales-led to hybrid PLG motion. In this episode of Category Visionaries, Justas Malinauskas shares the technical and strategic decisions behind their transformation from agency tool to enterprise marketing intelligence platform, including their multi-agentic AI implementation and the SEO strategy that generates 500+ MQLs monthly. Topics Discussed: Technical architecture evolution from reporting automation to full-stack marketing intelligence Strategic pivot from sales-led to hybrid PLG/sales-led motion triggered by mission misalignment Advanced SEO methodology using competitor pain point analysis and search behavior reverse engineering AI implementation using multi-agentic systems rather than simple LLM integration Lithuania's bootstrap-first ecosystem and knowledge-sharing networks among unicorn companies Go-to-market evolution across three distinct phases over 10 years GTM Lessons For B2B Founders: Engineer time-to-value as your primary PLG enabler, not feature breadth: Whatagraph achieved 5-minute time-to-value from data connection to dashboard generation—versus the industry standard of hours—by rebuilding their onboarding around AI-powered automation rather than manual drag-and-drop configuration. Justas notes this wasn't just UI optimization but fundamental product architecture changes: "It's basically a lot of knowledge from our last 10 years...we're able to build it like really multi-agentic platform which helps to build those things in steps, not just like drop something randomly." For PLG success, optimize your technical stack for immediate value delivery, not comprehensive feature exposure. Weaponize competitor technical limitations through content strategy: Rather than competing on generic "best marketing tool" keywords, Whatagraph dominated by creating authoritative content around specific competitor pain points. Their "Looker Studio being slow" content strategy captured high-volume searches from frustrated users by actually helping solve the problem while positioning their technical advantages. Justas explains: "The biggest problem was it's actually very slow...when we have everything in house we can make things like very quick and speedy compared to there." Target technical pain points your architecture inherently solves rather than fighting brand-to-brand keyword battles. Align your ICP strategy with your actual technical capabilities, not market perception: Whatagraph's shift to hybrid PLG wasn't market-driven but mission-driven. Justas realized their technical product could serve smaller organizations, but their sales-led approach artificially excluded them: "We were not empowering in the first place people, everyone to make those data driven decisions fast...we were not allowing everyone into the product even if our product was allowing to." Audit whether your go-to-market motion matches your product's actual technical capabilities and addressable market, not just your current revenue optimization. Build SEO moats through search behavior psychology, not keyword tools: Whatagraph's SEO dominance came from Justas thinking like customers in problem-solving mode rather than using standard keyword research. He reverse-engineered the complete buyer journey: "People go through a very much regular process...they search for a problem...find a blog post...find a product...competition...pricing...reviews...then actually buy the product." They attempted to own multiple touchpoints in this journey through strategic content placement across different domains. Map your customer's actual research psychology, not just search volumes. Implement freemium with full core functionality, not feature limitations: Whatagraph's new freemium tier includes their complete AI-powered report generation ("Whatagraph IQ") with only data source limitations, not feature restrictions. This approach lets small users experience the full product value while creating natural upgrade triggers as they grow. Justas notes: "All the core functionality...you're able to talk with your data within AI capabilities and ask questions about your data as you would pay a couple of thousands a month." Design freemium around usage scaling, not capability restrictions, to demonstrate full product value.   //   Sponsors: Front Lines — We help B2B tech companies launch, manage, and grow podcasts that drive demand, awareness, and thought leadership. www.FrontLines.io The Global Talent Co. — We help tech startups find, vet, hire, pay, and retain amazing marketing talent that costs 50-70% less than the US & Europe.  www.GlobalTalent.co   //   Don't Miss: New Podcast Series — How I Hire Senior GTM leaders share the tactical hiring frameworks they use to build winning revenue teams. Hosted by Andy Mowat, who scaled 4 unicorns from $10M to $100M+ ARR and launched Whispered to help executives find their next role. Subscribe here: https://open.spotify.com/show/53yCHlPfLSMFimtv0riPyM   

In this episode of GTM Live, Carolyn joins the Growth Activated Podcast as a guest to unpack one of the biggest blind spots in GTM today: what actually happens before an opportunity is created.99% of GTM teams still can't see this stage clearly. It's the “grey area” where SDRs and BDRs are grinding—sending emails, making calls, chasing signals, running sequences—all in the hope of booking a meeting that turns into pipeline.The problem? None of this activity is tracked in a clear, causal way. Leaders only see pipeline “sources” (marketing, sales, SDR), which hides the bigger story. Pipeline isn't a source—it's a chain reaction. A trigger sparks sales work, a series of events unfolds, and only some of those reliably convert to opportunities. Most of it? Invisible. That's why pipeline creation still feels like guesswork.Carolyn explains why source-based reporting and last-touch attribution keep teams stuck, and how to instrument the pre-opportunity “factory floor” with simple metrics that expose what's really working. Key Topics in this Episode:[00:10] Carolyn's journey: 4x Head of Marketing → CEO of Passetto[07:30] The Pipeline Black Box: why pre-opp activity is invisible[09:20] Using triggers to understand what really starts sales work[14:00] Inside the factory: connect rate, time-to-meeting, qual rate, DQs[22:40] Client insight: MQLs drain resources[27:50] KPIs to rethink: drop department-source, own pipeline as a system[30:45] For marketing leaders: accountability over defense[41:55] Annual planning: fight inertia, build visibility first[44:50] Where to find Carolyn & learn more about Passetto—This episode is powered by ⁠Passetto⁠, a GTM advisory and instrumentation software company with a solution that eliminates the Pipeline Black Box™, the critical data hidden inside every GTM engine where leaders are flying blind when it matters most.

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!In this episode of OpsCast, hosted by Michael Hartmann and powered by MarketingOps.com, we're joined by Ellie Cary, Senior Demand Generation Manager at StarTree. Ellie shares her experience navigating marketing performance challenges, including what happens when teams hit MQL goals but still face cuts, and why ROI visibility has become critical for MOps leaders.Ellie discusses the limitations of attribution and reporting, how over-engineered models can create complexity, and what it takes to simplify processes while improving impact. She also shares insights on customer marketing, retention, and how MOps professionals can make their work more visible and strategic across the organization.In this episode, you'll learn:How to connect marketing performance to business outcomesThe risks of overcomplicated attribution and how to simplify itThe importance of foundational marketing processes for measurable ROIStrategies for MOps teams to communicate effectively with non-technical stakeholdersThis episode is ideal for marketing operations, demand generation, and growth professionals looking to strengthen their impact and visibility in the organization. Tune in for Ellie's actionable guidance on making MOps work matter.Episode Brought to You By MO Pros The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals Join us at MOps-Apalooza: https://mopsapalooza.com/Save 10% with code opscast10Support the show

This episode of the OnBase Podcast delivers a masterclass in building modern go-to-market strategies with ABM at their heart. Host Paul Gibson talks with Robert Norum about why a focused, account-based approach is no longer optional for B2B organizations—it's essential. Robert breaks down the journey from traditional, volume-based marketing to a sophisticated, tiered ABM model that aligns the entire organization.The conversation uncovers the most common challenges businesses face when adopting ABM, from securing leadership buy-in to managing expectations and moving beyond outdated MQL metrics. Robert provides a clear roadmap for success, emphasizing that ABM is not just a marketing tactic but a company-wide directive that unites sales, marketing, and customer success into a single, powerful growth engine.Listen to the full episode to gain the confidence and clarity needed to make ABM your primary GTM strategy.Key TakeawaysABM is the Go-to-Market StrategyFor enterprise organizations, ABM should be the central GTM strategy, not just another marketing program.Focus is EverythingAn account-based approach forces you to concentrate your budget, resources, and people on the accounts that truly matter..Alignment is Non-NegotiableSuccess depends on creating a "SWAT team" across sales, marketing, and customer success, all working toward shared account goals.Pilots Can Be a TrapTreating ABM as a short-term pilot is a recipe for failure; it requires long-term investment and commitment from the top down.Measure What MattersMove beyond MQLs and vanity metrics. Focus on moving the dial within target accounts, expanding your footprint, and creating real pipeline opportunities..Quotes"ABM is the glue that has the potential to really connect organizations and break down silos across different teams"Best Moments (04:37) – The Evolution of ABM: Robert discusses how ABM grew from a one-to-one approach for large enterprises to a scalable, multi-tiered strategy.(09:05) – The Case for Focus: Why concentrating on high-value accounts is the most critical decision a B2B business can make today.(20:12) – The Biggest ABM Challenge: The most common mistake companies make is diving in without defining what ABM means for their organization and getting leadership buy-in.(24:17) – The End of Silos: How an account-based approach fosters an equal partnership between sales and marketing.(30:50) – Winning Over Leadership: Strategies for building a compelling business case for ABM and getting the C-suite excited.(42:40) – The Role of AI: How AI will accelerate ABM, but human intelligence remains essential to brief, interpret, and quality-check the output.Resource RecommendationsBooks:Account-Based Marketing: The Definitive Handbook for B2B Marketers by Bev Burgess.Shout-OutsJon Miller - MarTech entrepreneur,Co-founder at Marketo and EngagioMarta George - Head of EMEA AMB Programmes, Ping Identity.Lianne O'Connor - Global Field & ABM Marketing Director, Fluke Corporation.Andy Johnson - Founder and Director of Client Strategy, HUT 3.Charlotte Graham-Cumming - CEO, Ice Blue Sky Corporation.About the GuestRobert Norum is a B2B Marketer with over 30 years experience. He has worked in magazine publishing, IT distribution, marketing agencies and for the last 20 years as an independent marketing consultant. During this time he has worked on brand, demandgen, channel, ecommerce and sales enablement. For the last 10 years he had specialised in ABM working with a number of leading agencies and directly for wide cross-section of global brands. Since 2017, he has delivered the ABM Essentials training course for B2B Marketing training over 750 marketing professionals in the process. Robert has also been the ABM and Demand Strategy Expert on Propolis since its launch.Connect with Robert.

Most GTM teamstoday are missing targets because they're simply measuring the wrong things. In this episode, Carolyn and Amber unpack why attribution is a mirage (it only shows the lucky 2% that become opportunities) and why the MQL hamster wheel keeps smart teams stuck optimizing a tiny slice of reality. We dig into the pre-pipeline “factory floor,” show how to expose the messy middle, and explain why “more volume” isn't a strategy—it's a cash leak.You'll hear concrete ways to replace vanity conversion stats with a causal view of attempts → connects → meetings → opps → DQs (with reasons), what to do about pipeline shock when you tighten scoring, and why pipeline needs a single owner (hint: not “marketing-sourced”). We also talk about modular change vs. big-bang transformations, and where attribution actually belongs (as seasoning, not the main ingredient), dig into where attribution actually belongs in GTM measurement (spoiler: it's seasoning, not the protein), and explain why modular change beats waiting for a full-scale transformation.What You'll Learn:Attribution ≠ answers: It validates the 2-5% that convert and hides the waste in the 98%.Kill the MQL hamster wheel: Measure the journey, not just MQL→SQL%.Instrument the factory floor: Person-level steps that predict pipeline (and the drop-offs to fix).Volume lies: “Do more dials” is a 2012 play—engineer repeatable patterns instead.Pipeline shock is healthy: Fewer junk opps → higher win rate and better CAC.One owner for pipeline: Align Sales + Marketing on quality pipeline, not credit.When to use attribution: After you fix data hygiene and pre-pipeline tracking.If your dashboards keep telling you to “get more leads” or “add more dials,” you're staring at the pipeline mirage. Break free from the hamster wheel, shine a light on the messy middle, and finally see what's really driving, or draining, your revenue.This episode is powered by Passetto, a GTM advisory and software company with a solution that eliminates the Pipeline Black Box™, the critical data hidden inside every GTM engine where leaders are flying blind when it matters most.

Most B2B revenue engines stall out. In this episode, we break down why — and how to build one that actually scales.Paul Perrett (CEO, Firmable) joins us with Adem Manderovic (Closed Circuit Selling, CRO School) to map ARR model, the 10-line economic engine, and why cataloguing and ecosystem activation beat brute-force outbound.We unpack how to work backwards from revenue goals, align Sales, Marketing and CS around market validations, and build compounding demand with brand and partners.Tune in and learn:+ The 10-line economic model behind a scalable B2B revenue engine+ How to replace MQLs with market validations and fix SDR incentives+ Ecosystem activation plays that compound trust and pipelineIf you're a B2B marketer in a small team, this is a must-watch. It's practical, numbers-first, and shows how to turn brand, SDRs, inbound, and partners into one working B2B revenue engine.-----------------------------------------------------

When small-market teams face off against deep-pocketed competitors, winning means rewriting the rules of the game. That's exactly what happened in Moneyball, where the Oakland A's turned to unconventional metrics and overlooked talent to outsmart the league's biggest spenders. In this episode, we explore the marketing lessons behind it with special guest Scott Greenwald, CMO at Linedata.Together, we dive into how B2B marketers can rethink the metrics that matter, compete asymmetrically against larger rivals, align teams around bold strategies, and tell stories that stick, all while staying credible, prepared, and ready to adapt.About our guest, Scott GreenwaldAt Linedata, Scott's tenure as Chief Marketing Officer has been marked by the successful leadership of a dynamic, multi-lingual team and the creation of transformative digital marketing strategies. Our efforts have resulted in a staggering 600% year-over-year increase in web traffic, contributing significantly to a 20% generation of the sales pipeline.Scott's role extends to overseeing the marketing budget and launching a new CRM and Marketing Automation tool, which has streamlined Linedata's pipeline review process and accelerated the sales cycle. With a focus on driving market visibility and thought leadership, Scott's strategic campaigns across key global markets have empowered Linedata to cement its presence in the competitive financial services industry.What B2B Companies Can Learn From Moneyball:Focus on the outcomes that matter.  In Moneyball, the point wasn't to sign the flashiest “five-tool” players; it was to score runs. The same is true in marketing. Scott says, “In the end, it's how many of the MQLs turn into opportunities or new business? And that's what we focus on.” Metrics that look good in a report mean nothing if they don't turn into real pipeline and closed deals. In B2B, your scoreboard isn't impressions or clicks, it's revenue.Credibility over volume in content. AI makes it easy to crank out more content than ever before, but more isn't always better. “If we suddenly increased our, our, our output fivefold, we, we would lose that credibility,” Scott says. His team uses AI to adapt and reformat high-quality core pieces, not flood the market with fluff. Your audience notices when your content is consistent, credible, and worth their time—and they notice just as fast when it's not.Compete asymmetrically. The A's couldn't outspend the Yankees or Red Sox, so they had to outthink them. That meant challenging every “sacred cow” in baseball and finding value others overlooked. Scott explains, “You can't come in here and say, I'm going to transform this marketing organization into what I had before… you have to assess the talent pool [and] review the best way of spending the marketing budgets you have.” In marketing, the same rule applies: when you can't match your competitors' budget, you win by rewriting the playbook.Quote“It is our responsibility as storytellers of not just giving the business what they want, but also giving the audience what they need to hear.”Time Stamps[00:55] Meet Scott Greenwal, CMO at Linedata[01:04] Why Moneyball?[06:45] Behind the Scenes of Moneyball[10:00] B2B Marketing Lessons from Moneyball[31:51] The Importance of Storytelling[37:18] The Role of Communication in Change Management[41:02] The Evolution of Marketing Automation[45:30] Balancing Content Quality and Quantity[47:00 Final Thoughts & TakeawaysLinksConnect with Scott on LinkedInLearn more about LinedataAbout Remarkable!Remarkable! is created by the team at Caspian Studios, the premier B2B Podcast-as-a-Service company. Caspian creates both nonfiction and fiction series for B2B companies. If you want a fiction series check out our new offering - The Business Thriller - Hollywood style storytelling for B2B. Learn more at CaspianStudios.com. In today's episode, you heard from Ian Faison (CEO of Caspian Studios) and Meredith Gooderham (Head of Production). Remarkable was produced this week by Jess Avellino, mixed by Scott Goodrich, and our theme song is “Solomon” by FALAK. Create something remarkable. Rise above the noise.

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!In this episode of Ops Cast by MarketingOps.com (powered by The MO Pros), hosts Michael Hartmann, Mike Rizzo, and Naomi Liu delve into one of the most discussed shifts in B2B marketing and revenue operations: the evolving roles of Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) and Marketing Qualified Accounts (MQAs).In this episode, you'll learn:Why the traditional MQL model may be falling short and where MQAs step in.How to realign marketing and sales around shared intent signals.Common pitfalls when transitioning from MQLs to MQAs (and how to avoid them).Practical advice on shifting measurement frameworks to reflect real buyer behavior.To unpack this timely topic, they're joined by two accomplished leaders in RevOps and marketing strategy:Andrea Frazier, Senior Revenue Operations Technical Consultant, is known for her expertise in building scalable systems and aligning sales, marketing, and data. What makes her presence special on this podcast is that she will be a part of the Mopsapalooza as a speaker.Jessica Fewless, VP of Marketing and Partnerships, has deep experience in ABM, demand gen, and full-funnel program strategy.Together, they challenge long-standing definitions of buying intent and discuss how teams can evolve from lead-focused metrics to account-based signals that drive more aligned, strategic growth.Tune in now, because whether you're in Marketing Ops, RevOps, or Demand Gen, this episode offers an expert-led perspective on what it means to qualify, measure, and act on intent in today's B2B environment.Check out our complete toolkit for helping you move from MQLs to MQAs!Episode Brought to You By MO Pros The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals Visit UTM.io and tell them the Ops Cast team sent you. Join us at MOps-Apalooza: https://mopsapalooza.com/Save 10% with code opscast10Support the show

In this episode, we're joined by Sander van Gelderen, CMO at Effectory, an employee listening solution platform helping organizations measure and improve engagement, enablement, and productivity at scale, serving 700+ recurring customers across the Benelux, DACH, and now the Nordics. We spoke with Sander about how Effectory transformed from a project-based consultancy into a recurring revenue SaaS business and how his team is reshaping their go-to-market motion through Account-Based Experience (ABX). The goal? Closing the gap between marketing and sales, reducing waste, and targeting only the accounts truly in-market. Here are some of the key questions we address: What is ABX and how does it differ from ABM in practice? How do you unify marketing and sales targeting to remove friction? What were the warning signs that the traditional MQL model wasn't working? How do you implement ABX without losing velocity or your team's trust? What process and tech changes are required to make ABX work? How should marketing compensation evolve in an ABX world? What are the real trade-offs and pitfalls no one talks about?

Are MQLs really dead, or just evolving?In this episode of The Hard Corps Marketing Show, I sat down with Melissa McCready, Founder and CEO of Navigate Consulting Group. With decades of experience in marketing automation, customer success, and growth operations, Melissa is a recognized thought leader and award-winning expert in her field.Melissa unpacks the evolving role of MQLs and why they're far from obsolete. She explains how engagement scores and persona alignment still make them vital to marketing strategies when used correctly. We also explore the rise of growth operations as a strategic business function, the need for detailed AI implementation, and how leaders can stay ahead by embracing trends like generative engine optimization (GEO).In this episode, we cover:Why MQLs still matter, and how they're evolving, not disappearingWhat it means to train AI like a new team member using SOPs and expert inputWhy growth operations is broader than revenue ops and demands a seat at the tableHow early adoption of GEO can give you a competitive edgeWhy mentorship, community, and giving back elevate your career and credibilityIf you're ready to rethink traditional marketing operations and strategically prepare for an AI-powered future, this episode is full of actionable insights you won't want to miss!

In this episode of Executive Conversations, Maeva Cifuentes speaks with Dan Chapman, VP of sales and marketing at DocNow. Dan tells the story of walking into a startup that was generating one or two MQLs a month, then building a 90-day lead-gen engine that lit up the entire pipeline. He explains how owning both sales and marketing forces a single-funnel mindset, why every project must prove its revenue impact fast, and how he justifies brand spend by showing that one closed deal covers the cost. Dan shares his “north star” spreadsheet of thirty ranked experiments, describes hiring creatives who can tie design to bookings, and details how constant calls with reps eliminate silos. He also digs into measuring success with CAC efficiency, balancing short-term pipeline with long-term credibility, and adapting to buyers who either want total handholding or zero contact. The conversation is a blueprint for making marketing accountable without killing creativity.  

In this short segment of the Revenue Builders Podcast, we revisit the discussion with Shopify's CRO Bobby Morrison. We dive into the transformational "pod structure" they've adopted to align cross-functional teams more closely with customer outcomes. Drawing on lessons from his tenure at Microsoft, Morrison explains how Shopify's industry-specific pods streamline collaboration across sales, solution engineers, marketing, and customer success—leading to improved speed, accountability, and customer satisfaction. He also reveals how aligning incentives within these pods reduces internal friction and creates scalable, enterprise-grade execution. This episode is packed with strategic insight for CROs, sales leaders, and go-to-market operators aiming to drive operational efficiency and growth.KEY TAKEAWAYS[00:00:28] Shopify's shift to 16 industry-specific pods was designed to bring cross-functional teams closer to the customer.[00:01:00] Each pod includes sales, solution engineering, launch engineers, and partners all aligned around a single outcome.[00:02:00] At Microsoft, the team spent 70% of their time on internal orchestration, highlighting the inefficiency of siloed roles.[00:03:00] Shopify's pod structure includes defined primary and secondary roles with centralized responsibility and incentives.[00:03:49] All roles in a pod are measured against the same customer cohort, improving continuity and reducing disruption.[00:04:12] Morrison explains how aligning marketing with outcomes (not just MQLs) is helping Shopify eliminate interdepartmental friction.[00:05:00] Shopify is close to assigning at-risk compensation to marketing teams based on segment performance—creating real ownership.[00:05:49] The pod model drives faster decisions, stronger accountability, and less tug-of-war between siloed departments.QUOTES[00:01:00] "All aligned around a single outcome, which is helping our customers win."[00:02:39] "A sales rep could have as many as 87 different people they're working with internally to hit their objective."[00:03:49] "Now the pods are incentivized off of the same customer cohort."[00:04:59] "We're very close to assigning at-risk targets to our marketing team."[00:05:49] "Less tug-of-war that happens between siloed parts of the organization that have different KPIs."Listen to the full conversation through the link below.https://revenue-builders.simplecast.com/episodes/ai-driven-sales-innovation-with-bobby-morrisonEnjoying the podcast? Sign up to receive new episodes straight to your inbox:https://hubs.li/Q02R10xN0Check out John McMahon's book here:Amazon Link: https://a.co/d/1K7DDC4Check out Force Management's Ascender platform here: https://my.ascender.co/Ascender/

Laura Erdem, Sales Leader - Americas of Dreamdata, shares how sales and marketing teams can work together more effectively by focusing on shared business goals rather than forced alignment. Laura highlights the role of revenue attribution in helping marketers understand which activities are driving real impact, while acknowledging the complexity of measuring modern buyer journeys. She also discusses the value of correlation over time when it comes to linking marketing activities to revenue, and why simplifying processes and working closely with RevOps teams can help marketers feel more confident about their contributions to growth.Key Takeaways:(01:22) Sales and marketing alignment is about mutual respect, not friendship.(05:05) Creativity thrives when teams have time and space to experiment.(09:19) Marketing teams should collaborate with RevOps to understand impact.(13:10) MQLs need to connect to SQLs and revenue, not just impressions.(15:11) Attribution is often indirect; correlation over time is key.(18:03) Good data enables marketers to take accountability for revenue.(22:00) Using LinkedIn intentionally supports both sales and marketing goals.(24:46) Startup principles help enterprises achieve faster growth.(27:48) Transformation teams test ideas before full-scale execution.Resources Mentioned:Dreamdata websitehttps://dreamdata.io/Insightful Links:https://www.pecan.ai/blog/attribution-marketing-machine-learning/https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/communicating-marketings-impact-revenue-elevating-role-isaac-asendele/https://martech.org/new-attribution-challenge-understanding-marketing-sales-work-together/Thanks for listening to the “Marketing Leadership” podcast, brought to you by Listen Network. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review to help get the word out about the show. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss another insightful conversation. We appreciate the enthusiasm and support from our community. Currently, we are not accepting new guest interview requests as we focus on our existing lineup. We will announce when we reopen for new submissions. In the meantime, feel free to explore our past episodes and stay tuned for updates on future opportunities.#PodcastMarketing #PerformanceMarketing #BrandMarketing #MarketingStrategy #MarketingIntelligence #GTM #B2BMarketing #D2CMarketing #PodcastAds

Why MQLs Are Broken (And What to Measure Instead)B2B marketers are under pressure to generate pipeline. But the truth is, most of us are stuck operating inside a broken GTM system that was never built for how buyers actually buy.In this episode, we're joined by Steve Patti — 7x CMO, 3x sales leader, and creator of the Brand Demand Expand framework — alongside Adem Manderovic, co-founder of CRO School and architect of Closed Circuit Selling.Together, we unpack why the MQL became marketing's biggest mistake, how misaligned incentives broke sales and marketing, and how to rebuild your go-to-market so it's actually commercially viable.Steve shares real stories — including how he used account intelligence to guide $200M in CapEx — and outlines the system he used to align sales, marketing, and product around real buyer needs.Tune in and learn:+ Why MQLs are based on “fantasy intent” — and what to track instead+ How to replace lead gen with real account intelligence+ What sales, marketing, and CS need to align on to win deals (and renew them)If you're a B2B marketer frustrated with misaligned GTM motions, noisy Martech promises, and the pressure to deliver pipeline from people not ready to buy — this episode is a must-watch.-----------------------------------------------------

Joelle Kaufman has been both a CRO and a CMO—and she's here to tell you: if sales and marketing aren't on the same page, you're leaving revenue on the table.  In this Huddles Quick Take, Joelle outlines the three most common mistakes CMOs make when trying to align with sales—and how to avoid them. From pipeline goals to budget tension to attribution battles, Joelle shares how CMOs can build better partnerships that actually drive revenue.  What You'll Learn:  3 alignment mistakes that keep marketing and sales at odds  Why obsessing over MQLs sends the wrong signal  How shared pipeline goals help unify teams  The real problem with attribution finger-pointing    For the rest of the conversation with Joelle, visit our YouTube channel (CMO Huddles Hub) or click here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64XHb_E7UT4.  Get more insights like these by joining our free Starter program at cmohuddles.com.   For full show notes and transcripts, visit https://renegademarketing.com/podcasts/ To learn more about CMO Huddles, visit https://cmohuddles.com/

Welcome to Executive Conversations, where we dig into the gritty realities of leading modern marketing teams. In this episode, Maeva Cifuentes sits down with Janet Jaiswal, chief marketing officer at Blueshift and long-time marketing advisor. Janet unpacks why her team now owns 90 percent of pipeline, how she killed the vanity of MQLs in favour of BANT-qualified “stage 1” leads, and what it really takes to align marketing, sales and CS around the same revenue target. She explains the hidden CRM and training work that comes with that shift, the dangers of chasing efficiency before effectiveness, and why AI-powered search is rewriting the SEO rulebook. Janet also shares practical steps for surfacing in LLM results—from tweaking robots.txt to publishing Q&A-style content—and reveals how Blueshift is already closing deals that start with ChatGPT queries.

We sat down with sales legend Leslie Venetz and CRO School co-founder Adem Manderovic to untangle why outbound is still stuck in 2011—and how modern SDRs and BDRs can fix it fast.Outbound targets have never been tougher, yet teams keep blasting buyers with the same tired sequences. In this no-fluff chat, we unpack a buyer-first framework that swaps brute-force tactics for trust-led outreach and market validation.Tune in and learn:+ The “earn the right” test Leslie uses before every email or call+ How to rebuild SDR metrics around market validations - fast+ Why AI tools like Clay help only when you start with real buyer insightThis episode is a must-watch if you're serious about building a profit-generating pipeline without burning trust (or your team).-----------------------------------------------------

In this solo episode, Dan shares an evolved perspective on outbound strategies for boutique agency owners. Reflecting on lessons from the "Right Words to the Right People" workshop and client campaigns since, this episode offers a practical, human-centered approach to outbound that respects your time and builds real pipeline—without sacrificing trust or burning bridges.⏱️ Time-Stamped Breakdown00:00 – Why outbound often fails for boutique agencies02:20 – Why small wins in copy drive big results04:39 – The unique control and feedback loop outbound provides06:57 – Why most agency outbound tactics are broken from the jump09:21 – Enter the "trust recession" and how to sell like a human, not a marketer11:39 – How to define ideal client profiles (ICPs) the right way14:01 – The six key ingredients of effective outbound copy14:10 – Tribe-based kinship15:12 – Deep understanding and insider language16:21 – Show, don't tell authority cues18:38 – Timeliness and aligning with the calendar21:01 – Pattern interrupts that keep it horizontal, not hokey22:32 – De-risking the ask and giving people an easy yes23:20 – How to scale relevance without fake personalization25:43 – Outbound channels: why simpler may be smarter28:04 – Systems thinking: time blocking, trust, and the ops question30:21 – The real definition of “sales work” (hint: it's not just calls)32:43 – Supporting your new business person (or yourself) to succeed

From GTM Live:This week on GTM Live, Carolyn sits down with Megan Bowen, CEO of Refine Labs, to unpack why so many B2B companies are pouring budget into paid media, and still missing revenue targets.They break down what's really going wrong: not too much paid media, but too much spend on a strategy that doesn't convert. Pipeline is down. Revenue is down. And yet, the response is often to spend more, not better.You'll hear why performance marketing often fails to deliver real outcomes, how misaligned KPIs drive bad decisions, and what separates newer, agile companies from legacy players still running outdated GTM playbooks.Megan shares insights from working with dozens of growth-stage companies and how leadership mindset, speed of iteration, and willingness to challenge old assumptions can make or break your demand strategy.If you've been trying to defend paid spend, or wondering why results are flat despite doing “all the right things”, this episode is for you.Key topics in this episode:Why paid media often fails to convert to pipeline or revenueThe difference between new-school and old-school GTM teamsWhy optimizing for MQLs leads to the wrong outcomesHow to rethink measurement for real demand captureWhat high-performing growth teams do differentlyThis episode is powered by ⁠⁠Passetto⁠⁠. We help high-growth and equity-backed companies turn GTM data into better decisions, faster. We unify your GTM and financial data, identify your growth levers, and help you scale. Part SaaS, part advisory. Visit ⁠⁠⁠passetto.com⁠⁠.

This week on GTM Live, Carolyn unpacks one of the most deeply ingrained—but damaging—habits in B2B go-to-market: measuring success based on which department sourced the deal.While many marketing leaders know this approach doesn't reflect reality, changing it is hard, especially in legacy orgs with outdated attribution models, internal inertia, and leadership that still demands simple answers to complex questions.In this solo episode, Carolyn breaks down the real problem: measuring performance by team creates siloed decision-making, warped incentives, and misses what actually moves buyers through the funnel.You'll hear why the future of GTM performance measurement is about mapping buyer behavior across an interconnected journey, not slicing credit by department. And she shares the exact 5-part framework Passetto uses to help teams ditch "department-sourced" for something far more accurate and impactful.If you've ever struggled to prove Marketing's full impact, or if your exec team is still obsessed with MQLs and last-touch attribution, this episode will hit home.Key topics in this episode:Why “department source” attribution is outdated and misleadingThe real structure of a modern buyer journeyHow this model leads to misaligned KPIs and credit battlesWhy most GTM teams lack the data architecture to measure what mattersA new framework to measure engagement, prospecting, and sales as one integrated systemThis episode is powered by ⁠⁠Passetto⁠⁠. We help high-growth and equity-backed B2B SaaS companies turn GTM data into better decisions, faster. We unify your GTM and financial data, identify your growth levers, and help you scale. Part SaaS, part advisory. Visit ⁠⁠passetto.com⁠.

This week on GTM Live, Carolyn sits down with Megan Bowen, CEO of Refine Labs, to unpack why so many B2B companies are pouring budget into paid media, and still missing revenue targets.They break down what's really going wrong: not too much paid media, but too much spend on a strategy that doesn't convert. Pipeline is down. Revenue is down. And yet, the response is often to spend more, not better.You'll hear why performance marketing often fails to deliver real outcomes, how misaligned KPIs drive bad decisions, and what separates newer, agile companies from legacy players still running outdated GTM playbooks.Megan shares insights from working with dozens of growth-stage companies and how leadership mindset, speed of iteration, and willingness to challenge old assumptions can make or break your demand strategy.If you've been trying to defend paid spend, or wondering why results are flat despite doing “all the right things”, this episode is for you.Key topics in this episode:Why paid media often fails to convert to pipeline or revenueThe difference between new-school and old-school GTM teamsWhy optimizing for MQLs leads to the wrong outcomesHow to rethink measurement for real demand captureWhat high-performing growth teams do differentlyThis episode is powered by ⁠⁠Passetto⁠⁠. We help high-growth and equity-backed companies turn GTM data into better decisions, faster. We unify your GTM and financial data, identify your growth levers, and help you scale. Part SaaS, part advisory. Visit ⁠⁠passetto.com⁠.

Your sales team just closed a $50K deal. Marketing takes credit because the prospect downloaded three whitepapers. Sales takes credit because they nurtured the relationship for six months. Meanwhile, you're wondering why this kind of success feels so random—and why similar prospects are slipping away. Companies with misaligned sales and marketing teams waste more leads and see annual revenue decline. But businesses that achieve true alignment? They close more deals and grow revenue faster year-over-year. The difference isn't talent, budget, or market conditions. It's whether your marketing and sales teams are pulling in the same direction or accidentally sabotaging each other. Clashing Departments Can Crash Your Bottom Line The consequences of misalignment between sales and marketing are significant. One common side effect is sales teams complaining about the quality of leads generated by marketing, often dismissing them as "bad leads."  Another issue is messaging. Marketing can be blind to the value propositions that are working for sales if they do not understand the sellers' pitches and approach to closing deals. Their messaging is stale and ineffectual, completely disconnected from where sellers are finding success. When marketing and sales have different metrics or goals, it leads to a breakdown in communication and a lack of shared understanding. That misalignment hampers productivity, damaging morale and impacting your bottom line. Start With the Customer Journey The most important aspect that sales and marketing need to align on is the customer journey. This involves mapping out every touchpoint—from initial awareness to final purchase to customer retention.  Map the customer journey together—then act on it. This shared blueprint reveals exactly when prospects are ready for direct outreach versus when they need more nurturing. The payoff is immediate: Marketing delivers leads at peak readiness, while sales focuses their time on prospects most likely to convert. When both teams operate from the same customer journey map, handoffs become seamless and conversion rates climb. Tackle Sales Objections Together Every sales professional understands that the path to a closed deal is rarely a straight line. It's often a zig-zag through questions, doubts, and hesitations from prospects. Marketing's role is to help develop messaging and collateral assets that help the sales team deal with these objections. This includes essential resources like case studies, white papers, product demonstrations, and ROI calculators. With the support of marketing materials, sellers have the resources to back up their pitch, highlight benefits, and keep buyers engaged. Most teams fail to communicate. Marketing creates polished but generic materials that sales doesn't know exist. Sales knows which objections are the hardest to overcome but doesn't have specific collateral to counter them. The winning approach: Sales documents the top 5 objections that derail deals, complete with context about when and why they surface. Marketing then builds laser-focused tools to address these concerns. Think comparison sheets for "your competitor is cheaper," implementation timelines for "this seems too complex," or peer testimonials for "we're not sure this works in our industry." Close the loop: Sales reports back on which materials move deals forward and which fall flat. Marketing iterates based on real-world results. This feedback cycle shifts objection-handling from guesswork into a refined system that consistently converts hesitation into confidence. Get Sales and Marketing Aligned Now How can businesses foster a stronger cohesion between sales and marketing? Here are six key strategies: Establish Shared Goals and Metrics Sales and marketing should work together to define common objectives and key performance indicators (KPIs).  Action item: Schedule a joint planning session within the next 2 weeks to agree on 3-5 shared KPIs, such as the conversion rate from marketing qualified leads (MQLs) to sales qualified leads (SQLs). Foster Open Communication Regular communication is essential. Sales and marketing teams should meet frequently to share insights, discuss challenges, and provide feedback.  Action item: Institute weekly 30-minute alignment calls where sales shares feedback on lead quality and marketing reports on campaign performance. Develop a Unified Customer Journey Map Sales and marketing must collaborate to create a comprehensive map that outlines every touchpoint and identifies opportunities for engagement.  Action item: Schedule monthly journey-mapping sessions where both teams review touchpoint data, identify gaps, and agree on lead scoring criteria.  Create Consensus On Responsibilities Define the expectations and responsibilities of both sales and marketing. Outline lead qualification criteria, follow-up procedures, and other key processes to ensure clarity and accountability.  Action item: Document and get both teams to agree on what constitutes a qualified lead, response timeframes, and follow-up requirements. Embrace a Customer-Centric Approach When sales and marketing think alike, they can work together to deliver a seamless and consistent journey, building trust and loyalty.  Action item: Implement a monthly "customer journey audit" where one team member from sales and one from marketing jointly follow up with 3 customers who purchased in the last 90 days to identify friction points, unexpected value drivers, and missed opportunities in their buying experience, then present joint recommendations. Make the Choice to Change Start today with building the roadmap: shared goals, open communication, unified customer journeys, and collaborative objection-handling. The choice is clear. Continue operating with sales and marketing working separately or unite them into a revenue-generating machine. Learn more about uniting sales and marking, tackling objections, and skyrocketing your revenue by taking sales training courses through Sales Gravy University.

Think LinkedIn is the place to reach technical buyers?Auvik CMO Susanne Rodriguez breaks down how her team built an insanely effective Reddit and Facebook strategy — yes, Facebook — to reach IT pros who dodge sales emails like it's their job (because it is).We're talking memes that convert, subreddits that slap, and how to avoid getting flamed by Reddit mods who smell B2B fluff from a mile away. You'll also hear how Auvik got dragged for a meme, owned it publicly, and came out stronger — a.k.a. how to market like a human.If you've ever uttered the words “we need more MQLs” while ignoring your company's meme game… this one's for you.

Are We Forgetting the Humans in B2B Marketing?In this episode of The Hard Corps Marketing Show, I sat down with Daniel Incandela, Consultant, Advisor, and Fractional Marketing Officer for several fast-growing companies. With a background in anthropology and a career built on the power of storytelling, Daniel offers a refreshing take on branding, creativity, and human connection in B2B marketing.Daniel challenges the obsession with performance metrics and argues that B2B brands must return to what truly moves people: stories, emotion, and authenticity. From crafting messaging frameworks to using AI to amplify impact, he shares how marketers can stay ahead without losing their humanity.In this episode, we cover:Why B2B marketers need to take branding seriously and break the “brand doesn't matter” mythThe messaging house framework Daniel uses to align teams and anchor a brand's narrativeHow B2C creativity can inspire B2B marketing strategiesThe danger of relying too heavily on sterile metrics like MQLs and SQLsHow thoughtful gift-giving and storytelling build better customer relationshipsIf you're looking to build a brand that's not just data-driven but human-centered, this episode is packed with ideas to elevate your strategy and inspire your team.

Refine Labs' General Manager Judy Sheriff is on today to walk through how and why you should implement Refine Labs' modern, tangible success metrics for your marketing team. Judy Sheriff shares her career story, starting with her entry into marketing in 2010, highlighting experiences with companies relying heavily on traditional metrics such as MQLs, and her eventual discovery of modern demand generation strategies. The conversation moves then into the critical juncture when she realized the necessity for change and her subsequent contributions at Refine Labs in guiding companies toward a comprehensive understanding of influence over direct tracking. Essential SEO keywords such as "B2B SaaS," "marketing measurement framework," and "demand generation" are explored throughout the episode.The episode also spotlights the impact of tools and strategies that have helped Judy develop successful frameworks in marketing. With Evan, they discuss the importance of simplifying dashboards and streamlining data processes for accurate measurement. Judy emphasizes the significance of aligning with sales and finance to drive effective change and discusses the potential over-reliance on AI in marketing. Episode topics: #marketing, #leadgen, #demandgeneration, #sales, #B2BSaaS, #digitalmarketing #measurement #metrics______Subscribe to Stacking Growth on Spotify and YouTubeLearn More About Refine LabsSign Up For Our NewsletterConnect with the guest:Judy SheriffConnect with the hosts:Evan HughesSteph Crugnola

Podcast Summary: The Community Code — Building Brand Loyalty Beyond the TransactionIn this episode, Sacha Awwa dives deep with Michael Puhala, Chief Community Evangelist at Khoros, a trailblazer in the digital community space. With over a decade at the forefront of online community innovation, Michael has helped some of the world's top brands—like Microsoft, Spotify, and Sephora—build thriving ecosystems that drive retention, loyalty, and long-term customer engagement.From the early days of gamer forums to the rise of AI-assisted support and ideation hubs, Michael unpacks how brands can turn passive customers into active participants. This episode is essential for marketers, CX leaders, and product teams who want to build customer relationships that last.Key Topics Discussed:1. The Evolution of Community StrategyWhy digital communities predate social media—and how they still matter moreFrom support channels to data goldmines: how community became strategicHow post-COVID dynamics revived the role of community in brand building2. Community as a Retention EngineWhy Sephora community members spend 2.5x more than non-membersThe difference between customer-to-brand and customer-to-customer engagementUsing forums and ideation to support loyalty, CSAT, and product development3. From Forums to FlywheelsHow brands like Zoom and Southwest scale support through communityThe power of community-driven SEO: 180-day payoff, long-term valueSuper users as volunteers, evangelists, and customer service amplifiers4. B2B vs. B2C CommunitiesThe surprising overlap between Spotify and ShopifyWhy use cases like support, ideation, and lifestyle education apply across sectorsCommunity KPIs: lifetime value, churn reduction, CSAT, and content generation5. Community & AI: A New FrontierWhy AI needs community more than the reverse—for nowSummarization, prioritization, and churn prediction: AI's real role in communitiesHow generative AI will transform federated search and product-embedded support6. Avoiding the Community PitfallsWhy “build it and they will come” doesn't workThe death of MQLs and the rise of behavior-based engagementWhy community is a long-tail investment, not a short-term marketing fixKey Takeaways for Founders & Marketing Leaders:Treat community like a listening channel—not a marketing oneThe first 90 days of a new community initiative are critical—don't wing itDon't treat community like a campaign; it's a flywheel, not a funnelCommunity members are your highest-value customers—invest accordinglySurround yourself with experienced community leaders from day oneFollow Michael Puhala's Work:

This episode features an interview with Bill Macaitis, Founder & CEO, SaaS CMO Pro, where he shares growth strategies for SaaS and AI companies. His past roles include CMO positions at Slack and Zendesk, and SVP of Marketing at Salesforce. Bill joins the podcast to discuss findings from a recent survey of over 300 B2B marketers that gives insights into marketing strategies and budgets. He shares what they learned about marketing versus sales budgets, the most common attribution model, and more. Key Takeaways:Companies that are growing the fastest, invest the most in marketing. While cause and effect of that correlation is unclear, it's an interesting finding. Pipeline generation was one of the most tracked metrics for CMOs, which is a nice move away from only looking at MQLs or leads. Unfortunately, awareness was rarely tracked, making it hard for marketing teams to invest in long-term initiatives. A lot of companies, 65 percent, continue to use first or last touch attribution models.  Quote:  So, what we learned is a lot of companies, I think especially in their earlier stages -  percent still use first- or last- touch.  It's kind of crazy. I'm still shocked by it.  I remember my time at Salesforce,  I was running the marketing ops team at that point, along with a couple other teams, and  I just did a deep dive into attribution. Like I really wanted to understand like, hey, how many touches are people having with us before they became a lead? And then how many touches before they became a customer? What we would see is people would have 10, 20, 30 interactions or touches with us before they became a lead, and then they'd have like another 20 or 30 before they became a customer. And just imagine giving all the credit to the very first or last thing. And by the way, it's one of the reasons Google got so big was because a very common last touch thing is they will search on your company name. Branded search, right? And it's like, oh, like the SEM guys are like, this is amazing, right? We need to spend more on Google because they're producing these massive deals. And it's like, well wait, what about all the stuff in the middle?Episode Timestamps: *(03:48) Marketing Strategies and Budgeting*(22:31) Attribution Models in Marketing*(26:44) Top Metrics for B2B SaaS and AI Companies*(31:06) Marketing's Role in Revenue and ExpansionSponsor:Pipeline Visionaries is brought to you by Qualified.com. Qualified helps you turn your website into a pipeline generation machine with PipelineAI. Engage and convert your most valuable website visitors with live chat, chatbots, meeting scheduling, intent data, and Piper, your AI SDR. Visit Qualified.com to learn more.Links:Connect with Ian on LinkedInConnect with Bill on LinkedInLearn more about SaaS CMO ProLearn more about Caspian Studios