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Paul Frazee is the CTO of Bluesky. He previously worked on the Beaker browser and the peer-to-peer social media protocol Secure Scuttlebutt. Paul discusses how Bluesky and ATProto got started, scaling up a social media site, what makes ATProto decentralized, lessons ATProto learned from previous peer-to-peer projects, and the challenges of content moderation. Episode transcript available here. My Bluesky profile. -- Related Links Bluesky ATProtocol ATProto for distributed systems engineers Bluesky and the AT Protocol: Usable Decentralized Social Media Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) ActivityPub Webfinger Beaker web browser Secure Scuttlebutt -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I am talking to Paul Frazee. He's the current CTO of bluesky, and he previously worked on other decentralized applications like Beaker and Secure Scuttlebutt. [00:00:15] Paul: Thanks for having me. What's bluesky [00:00:16] Jeremy: For people who aren't familiar with bluesky, what is it? [00:00:20] Paul: So bluesky is an open social network, simplest way to put it, designed in particular for high scale. That's kind of one of the big requirements that we had when we were moving into it. and it is really geared towards making sure that the operation of the social network is open amongst multiple different organizations. [00:00:44] So we're one of the operators, but other folks can come in, spin up the software, all the open source software, and essentially have a full node with a full copy of the network active users and have their users join into our network. And they all work functionally as one shared application. [00:01:03] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like it's similar to Twitter but instead of there being one Twitter, there could be any number and there is part of the underlying protocol that allows them to all connect to one another and act as one system. [00:01:21] Paul: That's exactly right. And there's a metaphor we use a lot, which is comparing to the web and search engines, which actually kind of matches really well. Like when you use Bing or Google, you're searching the same web. So on the AT protocol on bluesky, you use bluesky, you use some alternative client or application, all the same, what we're we call it, the atmosphere, all one shared network, [00:01:41] Jeremy: And more than just the, the client. 'cause I think sometimes when people think of a client, they'll think of, I use a web browser. I could use Chrome or Firefox, but ultimately I'm connecting to the same thing. But it's not just people running alternate clients, right? [00:01:57] Paul: Their own full backend to it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. The anchoring point on that being the fire hose of data that runs the entire thing is open as well. And so you start up your own application, you spin up a service that just pipes into that fire hose and taps into all the activity. History of AT Protocol [00:02:18] Jeremy: Talking about this underlying protocol maybe we could start where this all began so people get some context for where this all came from. [00:02:28] Paul: For sure. All right, so let's wind the clock back here in my brain. We started out 2022, right at the beginning of the year. We were formed as a, essentially a consulting company outside of Twitter with a contract with Twitter. And, uh, our goal was to build a protocol that could run, uh, Twitter, much like the way that we just described, which set us up with a couple of pretty specific requirements. [00:02:55] For one, we had to make sure that it could scale. And so that ended up being a really important first requirement. and we wanted to make sure that there was a strong kind of guarantees that the network doesn't ever get captured by any one operator. The idea was that Twitter would become the first, uh, adopter of the technology. [00:03:19] Other applications, other services would begin to take advantage of it and users would be able to smoothly migrate their accounts in between one or the other at any time. Um, and it's really, really anchored in a particular goal of just deconstructing monopolies. Getting rid of those moats that make it so that there's a kind of a lack of competition, uh, between these things. [00:03:44] And making sure that, if there was some kind of reason that you decided you're just not happy with what direction this service has been going, you move over to another one. You're still in touch with all the folks you were in touch with before. You don't lose your data. You don't lose your, your your follows. Those were the kind of initial requirements that we set out with. The team by and large came from, the decentralized web, movement, which is actually a pretty, large community that's been around since, I wanna say around 2012 is when we first kind of started to form. It got really made more specifically into a community somewhere around 2015 or 16, I wanna say. [00:04:23] When the internet archives started to host conferences for us. And so that gave us kind of a meeting point where all started to meet up there's kind of three schools of thought within that movement. There was the blockchain community, the, federation community, and the peer-to-peer community. [00:04:43] And so blockchain, you don't need to explain that one. You got Federation, which was largely ActivityPub Mastodon. And then peer-to-peer was IPFS, DAT protocol, um, secure scuttlebutt. But, those kinds of BitTorrent style of technologies really they were all kind of inspired by that. [00:05:02] So these three different kind of sub communities we're all working, independently on different ways to attack how to make these open applications. How do you get something that's a high scale web application without one corporation being the only operator? When this team came together in 2022, we largely sourced from the peer-to-peer group of the decentralized community. Scaling limitations of peer-to-peer [00:05:30] Paul: Personally, I've been working in the space and on those kinds of technologies for about 10 years at that stage. And, the other folks that were in there, you know, 5-10 each respectively. So we all had a fair amount of time working on that. And we had really kind of hit some of the limitations of doing things entirely using client devices. We were running into challenges about reliability of connections. Punching holes to the individual device is very hard. Synchronizing keys between the devices is very hard. Maintaining strong availability of the data because people's devices are going off and on, things like that. Even when you're using the kind of BitTorrent style of shared distribution, that becomes a challenge. [00:06:15] But probably the worst challenge was quite simply scale. You need to be able to create aggregations of a lot of behavior even when you're trying to model your application as largely peer wise interactions like messaging. You might need an aggregation of accounts that even exist, how do you do notifications reliably? [00:06:37] Things like that. Really challenging. And what I was starting to say to myself by the end of that kind of pure peer-to-peer stent was that it can't be rocket science to do a comment section. You know, like at some point you just ask yourself like, how, how hard are we willing to work to, to make these ideas work? [00:06:56] But, there were some pretty good pieces of tech that did come out of the peer-to-peer world. A lot of it had to do with what I might call a cryptographic structure. things like Merkel trees and advances within Merkel Trees. Ways to take data sets and reduce them down to hashes so that you can then create nice signatures and have signed data sets at rest at larger scales. [00:07:22] And so our basic thought was, well, all right, we got some pretty good tech out of this, but let's drop that requirement that it all run off of devices. And let's get some servers in there. And instead think of the entire network as a peer-to-peer mesh of servers. That's gonna solve your scale problem. [00:07:38] 'cause you can throw big databases at it. It's gonna solve your availability problems, it's gonna solve your device sync problems. But you get a lot of the same properties of being able to move data sets between services. Much like you could move them between devices in the peer-to-peer network without losing their identifiers because you're doing this in direction of, cryptographic identifiers to the current host. [00:08:02] That's what peer-to-peer is always doing. You're taking like a public key or hash and then you're asking the network, Hey, who has this? Well, if you just move that into the server, you get the same thing, that dynamic resolution of who's your active host. So you're getting that portability that we wanted real bad. [00:08:17] And then you're also getting that kind of in meshing of the different services where each of them is producing these data sets that they can sink from each other. So take peer-to-peer and apply it to the server stack. And that was our kind of initial thought of like, Hey, you know what? This might work. [00:08:31] This might solve the problems that we have. And a lot of the design fell out from that basic mentality. Crytographic identifiers and domain names [00:08:37] Jeremy: When you talk about these cryptographic identifiers, is the idea that anybody could have data about a person, like a message or a comment, and that could be hosted different places, but you would still know which person that originally came from. Is that, is that the goal there? [00:08:57] Paul: That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna create identification that supersedes servers, right? So when you think about like, if I'm using Twitter and I wanna know what your posts are, I go to twitter.com/jeremy, right? I'm asking Twitter and your ID is consequently always bound to Twitter. You're always kind of a second class identifier. [00:09:21] We wanted to boost up the user identifier to be kind of a thing freestanding on its own. I wanna just know what Jeremy's posts are. And then once you get into the technical system it'll be designed to figure out, okay, who knows that, who can answer that for you? And we use cryptographic identifiers internally. [00:09:41] So like all the data sets use these kind of long URLs to identify things. But in the application, the user facing part, we used domain names for people. Which I think gives the picture of how this all operates. It really moves the user accounts up into a free standing first class identifier within the system. [00:10:04] And then consequently, any application, whatever application you're using, it's really about whatever data is getting put into your account. And then that just exchanges between any application that anybody else is using. [00:10:14] Jeremy: So in this case, it sounds like the identifier is some long string that, I'm not sure if it's necessarily human readable or not. You're shaking your head no. [00:10:25] Paul: No. [00:10:26] Jeremy: But if you have that string, you know it's for a specific person. And since it's not really human readable, what you do is you put a layer on top of it which in this case is a domain that somebody can use to look up and find the identifier. [00:10:45] Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we just use DNS. Put a TXT record in there, map into that long string, or you could do a .well-known file on a web server if that's more convenient for you. And then the ID that's behind that, the non-human readable one, those are called DIDs which is actually a W3C spec. Those then map to a kind of a certificate. What you call a DID document that kind of confirms the binding by declaring what that domain name should be. So you get this bi-directional binding. And then that certificate also includes signing keys and active servers. So you pull down that certificate and that's how the discovery of the active server happens is through the DID system. What's stored on a PDS [00:11:29] Jeremy: So when you refer to an active server what is that server and what is that server storing? [00:11:35] Paul: It's kinda like a web server, but instead of hosting HTML, it's hosting a bunch of JSON records. Every user has their own document store of JSON documents. It's bucketed into collections. Whenever you're looking up somebody on the network you're gonna get access to that repository of data, jump into a collection. [00:11:58] This collection is their post collection. Get the rkey (Record Key), and then you're pulling out JSON at the end of it, which is just a structured piece of stuff saying here's the CreatedAt, here's the text, here's the type, things like that. One way you could look at the whole system is it's a giant, giant database network. Servers can change, signing keys change, but not DID [00:12:18] Jeremy: So if someone's going to look up someone's identifier, let's say they have the user's domain they have to go to some source, right? To find the user's data. You've mentioned, I think before, the idea that this is decentralized and by default I would, I would picture some kind of centralized resource where I send somebody a domain and then they give me back the identifier and the links to the servers. [00:12:46] So, so how does that work in practice where it actually can be decentralized? [00:12:51] Paul: I mentioned that your DID that non-human readable identifier, and that has that certificate attached to it that lists servers and signing keys and things like that. [00:13:00] So you're just gonna look up inside that DID document what that server is your data repository host. And then you contact that guy and say, all right, I'm told you're hosting this thing. Here's the person I'm looking for, hand over the hand over the data. It's really, you know, pretty straightforward. [00:13:18] The way that gets decentralized is by then to the fact that I could swap out that active server that's in my certificate and probably wanna rotate the signing keys 'cause I've just changed the, you know. I don't want to keep using the same signing keys as I was using previously because I just changed the authority. [00:13:36] So that's the migration change, change the hosting server, change out the signing keys. Somebody that's looking for me now, they're gonna load up my document, my DID document. They're gonna say, okay, new server, new keys. Pull down the data. Looks good, right? Matches up with the DID doc. [00:13:50] So that's how you get that level of portability. But when those changes happen, the DID doesn't change, right? The DID document changes. So there's the level of indirection there and that's pretty important because if you don't have a persistent identifier whenever you're trying to change out servers, all those backlinks are gonna break. [00:14:09] That's the kind of stuff that stops you from being able to do clean migrations on things like web-based services. the only real option is to go out and ask everybody to update their data. And when you're talking about like interactions on the social network, like people replying to each other, there's no chance, right? [00:14:25] Every time somebody moves you're gonna go back and modify all those records. You don't even control all the records from the top down 'cause they're hosted all over the web. So it's just, you can't do it. Generally we call this account portability, that you're kinda like phone number portability that you can change your host, but, so that part's portable, but the ID stays the same. [00:14:45] And keeping that ID the same is the real key to making sure that this can happen without breaking the whole system. [00:14:52] Jeremy: And so it, it sounds like there's the decentralized id, then there's the decentralized ID document that's associated with that points you to where the actual location of your, your data, your posts, your pictures and whatnot. but then you also mentioned that they could change servers. [00:15:13] So let's say somebody changes where their data is, is stored, that would change the servers, I guess, in their document. But [00:15:23] then how do all of these systems. Know okay. I need to change all these references to your old server, to these new servers, [00:15:32] Paul: Yeah. Well, the good news is that you only have to, you, you got the public data set of all the user's activity, and then you have like internal caches of where the current server is. You just gotta update those internal caches when you're trying to contact their server. Um, so it's actually a pretty minimal thing to just like update like, oh, they moved, just start talking to update my, my table, my Redis, that's holding onto that kind of temporary information, put it on ttl, that sort of thing. Most communication won't be between servers, it will be from event streams [00:16:01] Paul: And, honestly, in practice, a fair amount of the system for scalability reasons doesn't necessarily work by servers directly contacting each other. It's actually a little bit more like how, I told you before, I'm gonna use this metaphor a lot, the search engines with the web, right? What we do is we actually end up crawling the repositories that are out in the world and funneling them into event streams like a Kafka. And that allows the entire system to act like a data processing pipeline where you're just tapping into these event streams and then pushing those logs into databases that produce these large scale aggregations. [00:16:47] So a lot of the application behavior ends up working off of these event logs. If I reply to somebody, for instance, I don't necessarily, it's not, my server has to like talk to your server and say, Hey, I'm replying to you. What I do is I just publish a reply in my repository that gets shot out into the event logs, and then these aggregators pick up that the reply got created and just update their database with it. [00:17:11] So it's not that our hosting servers are constantly having to send messages with each other, you actually use these aggregators to pull together the picture of what's happening on the network. [00:17:22] Jeremy: Okay, so like you were saying, it's an event stream model where everybody publishes the events the things that they're doing, whether that's making a new post, making a reply, that's all being posted to this event stream. And then everybody who provides, I'm not sure if instances is the right term, but an implementation of the atmosphere protocol (Authenticated Transfer protocol). [00:17:53] They are listening for all those changes and they don't necessarily have to know that you moved servers because they're just listening for the events and you still have the same identifier. [00:18:10] Paul: Generally speaking. Yeah. 'cause like if you're listening to one of these event streams what you end up looking for is just the signature on it and making sure that the signature matches up. Because you're not actually having to talk to their live server. You're just listening to this relay that's doing this aggregation for you. [00:18:27] But I think actually to kind of give a little more clarity to what you're talking about, it might be a good idea to refocus how we're talking about the system here. I mentioned before that our goal was to make a high scale system, right? We need to handle a lot of data. If you're thinking about this in the way that Mastodon does it, the ActivityPub model, that's actually gonna give you the wrong intuition. Designing the protocol to match distributed systems practices (Event sourcing / Stream processing) [00:18:45] Paul: 'cause we chose a dramatically different system. What we did instead was we picked up, essentially the same practices you're gonna use for a data center, a high scale application data center, and said, all right, how do you tend to build these sorts of things? Well, what you're gonna do is you're gonna have, multiple different services running different purposes. [00:19:04] It gets pretty close to a microservices approach. You're gonna have a set of databases, and then you're going to, generally speaking for high scale, you're gonna have some kind of a kafka, some kind of a event log that you are tossing changes about the state of these databases into. And then you have a bunch of secondary systems that are tapping into the event log and processing that into, the large scale, databases like your search index, your, nice postgres of user profiles. [00:19:35] And that makes sure that you can get each of these different systems to perform really well at their particular task, and then you can detach them in their design. for instance, your primary storage can be just a key value store that scales horizontally. And then on the event log, you, you're using a Kafka that's designed to handle. [00:19:58] Particular semantics of making sure that the messages don't get dropped, that they come through at a particular throughput. And then you're using, for us, we're using like ScyllaDB for the big scale indexes that scales horizontally really well. So it's just different kind of profiles for different pieces. [00:20:13] If you read Martin Kleppman's book, data Intensive applications I think it's called or yeah. A lot of it gets captured there. He talks a lot about this kind of thing and it's sometimes called a kappa architecture is one way this is described, event sourcing is a similar term for it as well. [00:20:30] Stream processing. That's pretty standard practices for how you would build a traditional high scale service. so if you take, take this, this kind of microservice architecture and essentially say, okay, now imagine that each of the services that are a part of your data center could be hosted by anybody, not just within our data center, but outside of our data center as well and should be able to all work together. [00:20:57] Basically how the AT Proto is designed. We were talking about the data repository hosts. Those are just the primary data stores that they hold onto the user keys and they hold onto those JSON records. And then we have another service category we call Relay that just crawls those data repositories and sucks that in that fire hose of data we were talking about that event log. App views pull data from relay and produces indexes and threads [00:21:21] Paul: And then we have what we call app views that sit there and tail the index and tail the log, excuse me, and produce indexes off of it, they're listening to those events and then like, making threads like okay, that guy posted, that guy replied, that guy replied. [00:21:37] That's a thread. They assemble it into that form. So when you're running an application, you're talking to the AppView to read the network, and you're talking to the hosts to write to the network, and each of these different pieces sync up together in this open mesh. So we really took a traditional sort of data center model and just turned it inside out where each piece is a part of the protocol and communicate it with each other and therefore anybody can join into that mesh. [00:22:07] Jeremy: And to just make sure I am tracking the data repository is the data about the user. So it has your decentralized identifier, it has your replies, your posts, And then you have a relay, which is, its responsibility, is to somehow find all of those data repositories and collect them as they happen so that it can publish them to some kind of event stream. [00:22:41] And then you have the AppView which it's receiving messages from the relay as they happen, and then it can have its own store and index that for search. It can collect them in a way so that it can present them onto a UI. That's sort of thing that's the user facing part I suppose. [00:23:00] Paul: Yeah, that's exactly it. And again, it's, it's actually quite similar to how the web works. If you combine together the relay and the app view, you got all these different, you know, the web works where you got all these different websites, they're hosting their stuff, and then the search engine is going around, aggregating all that data and turning it into a search experience. [00:23:19] Totally the same model. It's just being applied to, more varieties of data, like structured data, like posts and, and replies, follows, likes, all that kinda stuff. And then instead of producing a search application at the end. I mean, it does that too, but it also produces a, uh, you know, timelines and threads and, um, people's profiles and stuff like that. [00:23:41] So it's actually a pretty bog standard way of doing, that's one of the models that we've seen work for large scale decentralized systems. And so we're just transposing it onto something that kind of is more focused towards social applications [00:23:58] Jeremy: So I think I'm tracking that the data repository itself, since it has your decentralized identifier and because the data is cryptographically signed, you know, it's from a specific user. I think the part that I am still not quite sure about is the relays. I, I understand if you run all the data repositories, you know where they are, so you know how to collect the data from them. [00:24:22] But if someone's running another system outside of your organization, how do they find, your data repositories? Or do they have to connect to your relay? What's the intention for that? Data hosts request relays to pull their data [00:24:35] Paul: That logic runs, again, really similar to how search engines find out about websites. So there is actually a way for, one of these, data hosts to contact Relay and say, Hey, I exist. You know, go ahead and get my stuff. And then it'll be up to the relay to decide like if they want it or not. [00:24:52] Right now, generally we're just like, yeah, you know, we, we want it. But as you can imagine, as the thing matures and gets to higher scale, there might be some trust kind of things to worry about, you know? So that's kind of the naive operation that currently exists. But over time as the network gets bigger and bigger, it'll probably involve some more traditional kind of spiraling behaviors because as more relays come into the system, each of these hosts, they're not gonna know who to talk to. Relays can bootstrap who they know about by talking to other relays [00:25:22] Paul: You're trying to start a new relay. What they're gonna do is they're going to discover all of the different users that exist in the system by looking at what data they have to start with. Probably involve a little bit of a manual feeding in at first, whenever I'm starting up a relay, like, okay, there's bluesky's relay. [00:25:39] Lemme just pull what they know. And then I go from there. And then anytime you discover a new user you don't have, you're like, oh, I wanna look them up. Pull them into the relay too. Right. So there's a, pretty straightforward, discovery process that you'll just have to bake into a relay to, to make sure you're calling as much the network as possible. ActivityPub federation vs AT Proto [00:25:57] Jeremy: And so I don't think we've defined the term federation, but maybe you could explain what that is and if that is what this is. [00:26:07] Paul: We are so unsure. [00:26:10] Jeremy: Okay. [00:26:11] Paul: Yeah. This has jammed is up pretty bad. Um, because I think everybody can, everybody pretty strongly agrees that ActivityPub is federation, right? and ActivityPub kind of models itself pretty similarly to email in a way, like the metaphors they use is that there's inboxes and outboxes and, and every ActivityPub server they're standing up the full vertical stack. [00:26:37] They set up, the primary hosting, the views of the data that's happening there. the interface for the application, all of it, pretty traditional, like close service, but then they're kind of using the perimeter. they're making that permeable by sending, exchanging, essentially mailing records to each other, right? [00:26:54] That's their kind of logic of how that works. And that's pretty much in line with, I think, what most people think of with Federation. Whereas what we're doing isn't like that we've cut, instead of having a bunch of vertical stacks communicating horizontally with each other, we kind of sliced in the other direction. [00:27:09] We sliced horizontally into, this microservices mesh and have all the different, like a total mix and match of different microservices between different operators. Is that federation? I don't know. Right. we tried to invent a term, didn't really work, you know, At the moment, we just kind of don't worry about it that much, see what happens, see what the world sort of has to say to us about it. [00:27:36] and beyond that, I don't know. [00:27:42] Jeremy: I think people probably are thinking of something like, say, a Mastodon instance when you're, when you're talking about everything being included, The webpage where you view the posts, the Postgres database that's keeping the messages. [00:28:00] And that same instance it's responsible for basically everything. [00:28:06] Paul: mm-Hmm [00:28:06] Jeremy: And I believe what you're saying is that the difference with, the authenticated transfer protocol, is that the [00:28:15] Paul: AT Protocol, Yep. [00:28:17] Jeremy: And the difference there is that you've, at the protocol level, you've split it up into the data itself, which can be validated completely separately from other parts of the system. [00:28:31] You could have the JSON files on your hard drive and somebody else can have that same JSON file and they would know that who the user is and that these are real things that user posted. That's like a separate part. And then the relay component that looks for all these different repositories that has people's data, that can also be its own independent thing where its job is just to output events. [00:29:04] And that can exist just by itself. It doesn't need the application part, the, the user facing part, it can just be this event stream on itself. and that's the part where it sounds like you can make decisions on who to, um, collect data from. I guess you have to agree that somebody can connect to you and get the users from your data repositories. [00:29:32] And likewise, other people that run relays, they also have to agree to let you pull the users from theirs. [00:29:38] Paul: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [00:29:41] Jeremy: And so I think the Mastodon example makes sense. And, but I wonder if the underlying ActivityPub protocol forces you to use it in that way, in like a whole full application that talks to another full application. [00:29:55] Or is it more like that's just how people tend to use it and it's not necessarily a characteristic of the protocol. [00:30:02] Paul: Yeah, that's a good question actually. so, you know, generally what I would say is pretty core to the protocol is the expectations about how the services interact with each other. So the mailbox metaphor that's used in ActivityPub, that design, if I reply to you, I'll update my, local database with what I did, and then I'll send a message over to your server saying, Hey, by the way, add this reply. [00:30:34] I did this. And that's how they find out about things. That's how they find out about activity outside of their network. that's the part that as long as you're doing ActivityPub, I suspect you're gonna see reliably happening. That's that, I can say for sure that's a pretty tight requirement. [00:30:50] That's ActivityPub. If you wanted to split it up the way we're talking about, you could, I don't know, I don't know if you necessarily would want to. Because I don't know. That's actually, I think I'd have to dig into their stack a little bit more to see how meaningful that would be. I do know that there's some talk of introducing a similar kind of an aggregation method into the ActivityPub world which I believe they're also calling a relay and to make things even more complicated. [00:31:23] And NOSTR has a concept of a relay. So these are three different protocols that are using this term. I think you could do essentially what a search engine does on any of these things. You could go crawling around for the data, pull them into a fire hose, and then, tap into that aggregation to produce, bigger views of the network. [00:31:41] So that principle can certainly apply anywhere. AT Protocol, I think it's a little bit, we, we focused in so hard from that on that from the get go, we focus really hard on making sure that this, the data is, signed at rest. That's why it's called the authenticated transfer protocol. And that's a nice advantage to have when you're running a relay like this because it means that you don't have to trust the relay. [00:32:08] Like generally speaking, when I look at results from Google, you know, I'm trusting pretty well that they're accurately reflecting what's on the website, which is fine. You know, there's, that's not actually a huge risk or anything. But whenever you're trying to build entire applications and you're using somebody else's relay, you could really run into things where they say like, oh, you know what Paul tweeted the other day, you know, I hate dogs. [00:32:28] They're like, no, I didn't. That's a lie, right? You just sneak in Little lies like that over a while, it becomes a problem. So having the signatures on the data is pretty important. You know, if you're gonna be trying to get people to cooperate, uh, you gotta manage the trust model. I know that ActivityPub does have mechanisms for signed records. Issuers with ActivityPub identifiers [00:32:44] Paul: I don't know how deep they go if they could fully replace that, that utility. and then Mastodon ActivityPub, they also use a different identifier system that they're actually taking a look at DIDs um, right now, I don't know what's gonna happen there. We're, we're totally on board to, you know, give any kind of insight that we got working on 'em. [00:33:06] But at, at the moment, they use I think it's WebFinger based identifiers they look like emails. So you got host names in there and those identifiers are being used in the data records. So you don't get that continuous identifier. They actually do have to do that hey, I moved update your records sort of thing. [00:33:28] And that causes it to, I mean, it works like decently well, but not as well as it could. They got us to the point where it moves your profile over and you update all the folks that were following you so they can update their follow records, but your posts, they're not coming right, because that's too far into that mesh of interlinking records. [00:33:48] There's just no chance. So that's kind of the upper limit on that, it's a different set of choices and trade-offs. You're always kind of asking like, how important is the migration? Does that work out? Anyway, now I'm just kind of digging into differences between the two here. Issues with an identifier that changes and updating old records [00:34:07] Jeremy: So you were saying that with ActivityPub, all of the instances need to be notified that you've changed your identifier but then all of the messages that they had already received. They don't point to the new identifier somehow. [00:34:24] Paul: Yeah. You run into basically just the practicalities of actual engineering with that is what happens, right? Because if you imagine you got a multimillion user social network. They got all their posts. Maybe the user has like, let's say a thousand posts and 10,000 likes. And that, activity can range back three years. [00:34:48] Let's say they changed their identifier, and now you need to change the identifier of all those records. If you're in a traditional system that's already a tall order, you're going back and rewriting a ton of indexes, Anytime somebody replied to you, they have these links to your posts, they're now, you've gotta update the identifiers on all of those things. [00:35:11] You could end up with a pretty significant explosion of rewrites that would have to occur. Now that's, that's tough. If you're in a centralized model. If you're in a decentralized one, it's pretty much impossible because you're now, when you notify all the other servers like, Hey, this, this changed. How successful are all of them at actually updating that, that those, those pointers, it's a good chance that there's things are gonna fall out of correctness. that's just a reality of it. And if, so, if you've got a, if you've got a mutable identifier, you're in trouble for migrations. So the DID is meant to keep it permanent and that ends up being the anchoring point. If you lose control of your DID well, that's it. Managing signing keys by server, paper key reset [00:35:52] Paul: Your, your account's done. We took some pretty traditional approaches to that, uh, where the signing keys get managed by your hosting server instead of like trying to, this may seem like really obvious, but if you're from the decentralization community, we spend a lot of time with blockchains, like, Hey, how do we have the users hold onto their keys? [00:36:15] You know, and the tooling on that is getting better for what it's worth. We're starting to see a lot better key pair management in like Apple's ecosystem and Google's ecosystem, but it's still in the range of like, nah, people lose their keys, you know? So having the servers manage those is important. [00:36:33] Then we have ways of exporting paper keys so that you could kind of adversarially migrate if you wanted to. That was in the early spec we wanted to make sure that this portability idea works, that you can always migrate your accounts so you can export a paper key that can override. [00:36:48] And that was how we figured that out. Like, okay, yeah, we don't have to have everything getting signed by keys that are on the user's devices. We just need these master backup keys that can say, you know what? I'm done with that host. No matter what they say, I'm overriding what they, what they think. and that's how we squared that one. [00:37:06] Jeremy: So it seems like one of the big differences with account migration is that with ActivityPub, when you move to another instance, you have to actually change your identifier. [00:37:20] And with the AT protocol you're actually not allowed to ever change that identifier. And maybe what you're changing is just you have say, some kind of a lookup, like you were saying, you could use a domain name to look that up, get a reference to your decentralized identifier, but your decentralized identifier it can never change. [00:37:47] Paul: It, it, it can't change. Yeah. And it shouldn't need to, you know what I mean? It's really a total disaster kind of situation if that happens. So, you know that it's designed to make sure that doesn't happen in the applications. We use these domain name handles to, to identify folks. And you can change those anytime you want because that's really just a user facing thing. [00:38:09] You know, then in practice what you see pretty often is that you may, if you change hosts, if you're using, we, we give some domains to folks, you know, 'cause like not everybody has their own domain. A lot of people do actually, to our surprise, people actually kind of enjoy doing that. But, a lot of folks are just using like paul.bsky.social as their handle. [00:38:29] And so if you migrated off of that, you probably lose that. Like your, so your handle's gonna change, but you're not losing the followers and stuff. 'cause the internal system isn't using paul.bsky.social, it's using that DID and that DID stays the same. Benefits of domain names, trust signal [00:38:42] Jeremy: Yeah. I thought that was interesting about using the domain names, because when you like you have a lot of users, everybody's got their own sub-domain. You could have however many millions of users. Does that become, does that become an issue at some point? [00:39:00] Paul: Well, it's a funny thing. I mean like the number of users, like that's not really a problem 'cause you run into the same kind of namespace crowding problem that any service is gonna have, right? Like if you just take the subdomain part of it, like the name Paul, like yeah, only, you only get to have one paul.bsky.social. [00:39:15] so that part of like, in terms of the number of users, that part's fine I guess. Uh, as fine as ever. where gets more interesting, of course is like, really kind of around the usability questions. For one, it's, it's not exactly the prettiest to always have that B sky.social in there. If we, if we thought we, if we had some kind of solution to that, we would use it. [00:39:35] But like the reality is that, you know, now we're, we've committed to the domain name approach and some folks, you know, they kind of like, ah, that's a little bit ugly. And we're like, yeah that's life. I guess the plus side though is that you can actually use like TLD the domain. It's like on pfrazee.com. [00:39:53] that starts to get more fun. it can actually act as a pretty good trust signal in certain scenarios. for instance, well-known domain names like nytimes.com, strong authentication right there, we don't even need a blue check for it. Uh, similarly the .gov, domain name space is tightly regulated. [00:40:14] So you actually get a really strong signal out of that. Senator Wyden is one of our users and so he's, I think it's wyden.senate.gov and same thing, strong, you know, strong identity signal right there. So that's actually a really nice upside. So that's like positives, negatives. [00:40:32] That trust signal only works so far. If somebody were to make pfrazee.net, then that can be a bit confusing. People may not be paying attention to .com vs .net, so it's not, I don't wanna give the impression that, ah, we've solved blue checks. It's a complicated and multifaceted situation, but, it's got some juice. [00:40:54] It's also kinda nice too, 'cause a lot of folks that are doing social, they're, they've got other stuff that they're trying to promote, you know? I'm pretty sure that, uh, nytimes would love it if you went to their website. And so tying it to their online presence so directly like that is a really nice kind of feature of it. [00:41:15] And tells a I think a good story about what we're trying to do with an open internet where, yeah, everybody has their space on the internet where they can do whatever they want on that. And that's, and then thethese social profiles, it's that presence showing up in a shared space. It's all kind of part of the same thing. [00:41:34] And that that feels like a nice kind of thing to be chasing, you know? And it also kind of speaks well to the naming worked out for us. We chose AT Protocol as a name. You know, we back acronymed our way into that one. 'cause it was a @ simple sort of thing. But like, it actually ended up really reflecting the biggest part of it, which is that it's about putting people's identities at the front, you know, and make kind of promoting everybody from a second class identity that's underneath Twitter or Facebook or something like that. [00:42:03] Up into. Nope, you're freestanding. You exist as a person independently. Which is what a lot of it's about. [00:42:12] Jeremy: Yeah, I think just in general, not necessarily just for bluesky, if people had more of an interest in getting their own domain, that would be pretty cool if people could tie more of that to something you basically own, right? [00:42:29] I mean, I guess you're leasing it from ICANN or whatever, but, [00:42:33] yeah, rather than everybody having an @Gmail, Outlook or whatever they could actually have something unique that they control more or less. [00:42:43] Paul: Yeah. And we, we actually have a little experimental service for registering domain names that we haven't integrated into the app yet because we just kind of wanted to test it out and, and kind of see what that appetite is for folks to register domain names way higher than you'd think we did that early on. [00:43:01] You know, it's funny when you're coming from decentralization is like an activist space, right? Like it's a group of people trying to change how this tech works. And sometimes you're trying to parse between what might come off as a fascination of technologists compared to what people actually care about. [00:43:20] And it varies, you know, the domain name thing to a surprising degree, folks really got into that. We saw people picking that up almost straight away. More so than certainly we ever predicted. And I think that's just 'cause I guess it speaks to something that people really get about the internet at this point. [00:43:39] Which is great. We did a couple of other things that are similar and we saw varied levels of adoption on them. We had similar kinds of user facing, opening up of the system with algorithms and with moderation. And those have both been pretty interesting in and of themselves. Custom feed algorithms [00:43:58] Paul: So with algorithms, what we did was we set that up so that anybody can create a new feed algorithm. And this was kind of one of the big things that you run into whenever you use the app. If you wanted to create a new kind of for you feed you can set up a service somewhere that's gonna tap into that fire hose, right? [00:44:18] And then all it needs to do is serve a JSON endpoint. That's just a list of URLs, but like, here's what should be in that feed. And then the bluesky app will pick that up and, and send that, hydrate in the content of the posts and show that to folks. I wanna say this is a bit of a misleading number and I'll explain why but I think there's about 35,000 of these feeds that have been created. [00:44:42] Now, the reason it's little misleading is that, I mean, not significantly, but it's not everybody went, sat down in their IDE and wrote these things. Essentially one of our users created, actually multiple of our users made little platforms for building these feeds, which is awesome. That's the kinda thing you wanna see because we haven't gotten around to it. [00:44:57] Our app still doesn't give you a way to make these things. But they did. And so lots of, you know, there it is. Cool. Like, one, one person made a kind of a combinatorial logic thing that's like visual almost like scratch, it's like, so if it has this hashtag and includes these users, but not those users, and you're kind of arranging these blocks and that constructs the feed and then probably publish it on your profile and then folks can use it, you know? [00:45:18] And um, so that has been I would say fairly successful. Except, we had one group of hackers do put in a real effort to make a replacement for you feed, like magic algorithmic feed kind of thing. And then they kind of kept up going for a while and then ended up giving up on it. Most of what we see are actually kind of weird niche use cases for feeds. [00:45:44] You get straightforward ones, like content oriented ones like a cat feed, politics feed, things like that. It's great, some of those are using ML detection, so like the cat feed is ML detection, so sometimes you get like a beaver in there, but most of the time it's a cat. And then we got some ones that are kind of a funny, like change in the dynamic of freshness. [00:46:05] So, uh, or or selection criteria, things that you wouldn't normally see. Um, but because they can do whatever they want, you know, they try it out. So like the quiet posters ended up being a pretty successful one. And that one just shows people you're following that don't post that often when they do just those folks. [00:46:21] It ended up being, I use that one all the time because yeah, like they get lost in the noise. So it's like a way to keep up with them. Custom moderation and labeling [00:46:29] Paul: The moderation one, that one's a a real interesting situation. What we did there essentially we wanted to make sure that the moderation system was capable of operating across different apps so that they can share their work, so to speak. [00:46:43] And so we created what we call labeling. And labeling is a metadata layer that exists over the network. Doesn't actually live in the normal data repositories. It uses a completely different synchronization because a lot of these labels are getting produced. It's just one of those things where the engineering characteristics of the labels is just too different from the rest of the system. [00:47:02] So we created a separate synchronization for this, and it's really kind of straightforward. It's, here's a URL and here's a string saying something like NSFW or Gore, or you know, whatever. then those get merged onto the records brought down by the client and then the client, you know, based on the user's preferences. [00:47:21] We'll put like warning screens up, hide it, stuff like that. So yeah, these label streams can then, you know, anybody that's running a moderation service can, you know, are publishing these things and so anybody can subscribe to 'em. And you get that kind of collaborative thing we're always trying to do with this. [00:47:34] And we had some users set up moderation services and so then as an end user you find it, it looks like a profile in the app and you subscribe to it and you configure it and off you go. That one has had probably the least amount of adoption throughout all of 'em. It's you know, moderation. [00:47:53] It's a sticky topic as you can imagine, challenging for folks. These moderation services, they do receive reports, you know, like whenever I'm reporting a post, I choose from all my moderation services who I wanna report this to. what has ended up happening more than being used to actually filter out like subjective stuff is more kind of like either algorithmic systems or what you might call informational. [00:48:21] So the algorithmic ones are like, one of the more popular ones is a thing that's looking for, posts from other social networks. Like this screenshot of a Reddit post or a Twitter post or a Facebook post. Because, which you're kinda like, why, you know, but the thing is some folks just get really tired of seeing screenshots from the other networks. [00:48:40] 'cause often it's like, look what this person said. Can you believe it? You know, it's like, ah. Okay, I've had enough. So one of our users aendra made a moderate service that just runs an ML that detects it, labels it, and then folks that are tired of it, they subscribe to it and they're just hide it, you know? [00:48:57] And so it's like a smart filter kind of thing that they're doing. you know, hypothetically you could do that for things like spiders, you know, like you've got arachniphobia, things like that. that's like a pretty straightforward, kind of automated way of doing it. Which takes a lot of the spice, you know, outta out of running moderation. [00:49:15] So that users have been like, yeah, yeah, okay, we can do that. [00:49:20] Those are user facing ways that we tried to surface the. Decentralized principle, right? And make take advantage of how this whole architecture can have this kind of a pluggability into it. Users can self host now [00:49:33] Paul: But then really at the end of the day, kind of the important core part of it is those pieces we were talking about before, the hosting, the relay and the, the applications themselves, having those be swappable in completely. so we tend to think of those as kind of ranges of infrastructure into application and then into particular client side stuff. [00:49:56] So a lot of folks right now, for instance, they're making their own clients to the application and those clients are able to do customizations, add features, things like that, as you might expect, [00:50:05] but most of them are not running their own backend. They're just using our backend. But at any point, it's right there for you. You know, you can go ahead and, and clone that software and start running the backend. If you wanted to run your own relay, you could go ahead and go all the way to that point. [00:50:19] You know, if you wanna do your own hosting, you can go ahead and do that. Um, it's all there. It's really just kind of a how much effort your project really wants to take. That's the kind of systemically important part. That's the part that makes sure that the overall mission of de monopolizing, social media online, that's where that really gets enforced. [00:50:40] Jeremy: And so someone has their own data repository with their own users and their own relay. they can request that your relay collect the information from their own data repositories. And that's, that's how these connections get made. [00:50:58] Paul: Yeah. And, and we have a fair number of those already. Fair number of, we call those the self hosters right? And we got I wanna say 75 self hoster going right now, which is, you know, love to see that be more, but it's, really the folks that if you're running a service, you probably would end up doing that. [00:51:20] But the folks that are just doing it for themselves, it's kind of the, the nerdiest of the nerds over there doing that. 'cause it doesn't end up showing itself in the, in the application at all. Right? It's totally abstracted away. So it, that, that one's really about like, uh, measure your paranoia kind of thing. [00:51:36] Or if you're just proud of the self-hosting or, or curious, you know, that that's kind of where that sits at the moment. AT Protocol beyond bluesky [00:51:42] Jeremy: We haven't really touched on the fact that there's this underlying protocol and everything we've been discussing has been centered around the bluesky social network where you run your own, instance of the relay and the data repositories with the purpose of talking to bluesky, but the protocol itself is also intended to be used for other uses, right? [00:52:06] Paul: Yeah. It's generic. The data types are set up in a way that anybody can build new data types in the system. there's a couple that have already begun, uh, front page, which is kind of a hacker news clone. There's Smoke Signals, which is a events app. There's Blue Cast, which is like a Twitter spaces, clubhouse kind of thing. [00:52:29] Those are the folks that are kind of willing to trudge into the bleeding edge and deal with some of the rough edges there for pretty I think, obvious reasons. A lot of our work gets focused in on making sure that the bluesky app and that use case is working correctly. [00:52:43] But we are starting to round the corner on getting to a full kind of how to make alternative applications state. If you go to the atproto.com, there's a kind of a introductory tutorial where that actually shows that whole stack and how it's done. So it's getting pretty close. There's a couple of still things that we wanna finish up. [00:53:04] jeremy so in a way you can almost think of it as having an eventually consistent data store on the network, You can make a traditional web application with a relational database, and the source of truth can actually be wherever that data repository is stored on the network. [00:53:24] paul Yeah, that's exactly, it is an eventually consistent system. That's exactly right. The source of truth is there, is their data repo. And that relational database that you might be using, I think the best way to think about it is like secondary indexes or computed indexes, right? They, reflect the source of truth. [00:53:43] Paul: This is getting kind of grandiose. I don't tend to poses in these terms, but it is almost like we're trying to have an OS layer at a protocol level. It's like having your own [00:53:54] Network wide database or network-wide file system, you know, these are the kind of facilities you expect out of a platform like an os And so the hope would be that this ends up getting that usage outside of just the initial social, uh, app, like what we're doing here. [00:54:12] If it doesn't end up working out that way, if this ends up, you know, good for the Twitter style use case, the other one's not so much, and that's fine too. You know, that's, that's our initial goal, but we, we wanted to make sure to build it in a way that like, yeah, there's evolve ability to, it keeps, it, keeps it, make sure that you're getting kinda the most utility you can out of it. Peer-to-peer and the difficulty of federated queries [00:54:30] Jeremy: Yeah, I can see some of the parallels to some of the decentralized stuff that I, I suppose people are still working on, but more on the peer-to-peer side, where the idea was that I can have a network host this data. but, and in this case it's a network of maybe larger providers where they could host a bunch of people's data versus just straight peer to peer where everybody has to have a piece of it. [00:54:57] And it seems like your angle there was really the scalability part. [00:55:02] Paul: It was the scalability part. And there's great work happening in peer-to-peer. There's a lot of advances on it that are still happening. I think really the limiter that you run into is running queries against aggregations of data. Because you can get the network, you know, BitTorrent sort of proved that you can do distributed open horizontal scaling of hosting. [00:55:29] You know, that basic idea of, hey, everybody's got a piece and you sync it from all these different places. We know you can do things like that. What nobody's been able to really get into a good place is running, queries across large data sets. In the model like that, there's been some research in what is, what's called federated queries, which is where you're sending a query to multiple different nodes and asking them to fulfill as much of it as they can and then collating the results back. But it didn't work that well. That's still kind of an open question and until that is in a place where it can like reliably work and at very large scales, you're just gonna need a big database somewhere that does give the properties that you need. You need these big indexes. And once we were pretty sure of that requirement, then from there you start asking, all right, what else about the system [00:56:29] Could we make easier if we just apply some more traditional techniques and merge that in with the peer-to-peer ideas? And so key hosting, that's an obvious one. You know, availability, let's just have a server. It's no big deal. But you're trying to, you're trying to make as much of them dumb as possible. [00:56:47] So that they have that easy replaceability. Moderation challenges [00:56:51] Jeremy: Earlier you were talking a a little bit about the moderation tools that people could build themselves. There was some process where people could label posts and then build their own software to determine what a feed should show per a person. [00:57:07] Paul: Mm-Hmm [00:57:07] Jeremy: But, but I think before that layer for the platform itself, there's a base level of moderation that has to happen. [00:57:19] Paul: yeah. [00:57:20] Jeremy: And I wonder if you could speak to, as the app has grown, how that's handled. [00:57:26] Paul: Yeah. the, you gotta take some requirements in moderation pretty seriously to start. And with decentralization. It sometimes that gets a little bit dropped. You need to have systems that can deal with questions about CSAM. So you got those big questions you gotta answer and then you got stuff that's more in the line of like, alright, what makes a good platform? [00:57:54] What kind of guarantees are we trying to give there? So just not legal concerns, but you know, good product experience concerns. That's something we're in the realm of like spam and and abusive behavior and things like that. And then you get into even more fine grain of like what is a person's subjective preference and how can they kind of make their thing better? [00:58:15] And so you get a kind of a telescoping level of concerns from the really big, the legal sort of concerns. And then the really small subjective preference kind of concerns. And that actually that telescoping maps really closely to the design of the system as well. Where the further you get up in the kind of the, in that legal concern territory, you're now in core infrastructure. [00:58:39] And then you go from infrastructure, which is the relay down into the application, which is kind of a platform and then down into the client. And that's where we're having those labelers apply. And each of them, as you kind of move closer to infrastructure, the importance of the decision gets bigger too. [00:58:56] So you're trying to do just legal concerns with the relay right? Stuff that you objectively can, everybody's in agreement like Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, no bigs don't include that. The reason is that at the relay level, you're anybody that's using your relay, they depend on the decisions you're making, that sort of selection you're doing, any filtering you're doing, they don't get a choice after that. [00:59:19] So you wanna try to keep that focus really on legal concerns and doing that well. so that applications that are downstream of it can, can make their choices. The applications themselves, you know, somebody can run a parallel I guess you could call it like a parallel platform, so we got bluesky doing the microblogging use case, other people can make an application doing the microblogging use case. So there's, there's choice that users can easily switch, easily enough switch between, it's still a big choice. [00:59:50] So we're operating that in many ways. Like any other app nowadays might do it. You've got policies, you know, for what's acceptable on the network. you're still trying to keep that to be as, you know, objective as possible, make it fair, things like that. You want folks to trust your T&S team. Uh, but from the kind of systemic decentralization question, you get to be a little bit more opinionated. [01:00:13] Down all the way into the client with that labeling system where you can, you know, this is individuals turning on and off preferences. You can be as opinionated as you want on that letter. And that's how we have basically approached this. And in a lot of ways, it really just comes down to, in the day to day, you're the moderation, the volume of moderation tasks is huge. [01:00:40] You don't actually have high stakes moderation decisions most of the time. Most of 'em are you know pretty straightforward. Shouldn't have done that. That's gotta go. You get a couple every once in a while that are a little spicier or a policy that's a little spicier. And it probably feels pretty common to end users, but that just speaks to how much moderation challenges how the volume of reports and problems that come through. [01:01:12] And we don't wanna make it so that the system is seized up, trying to decentralize itself. You know, it needs to be able to operate day to day. What you wanna make is, you know, back pressure, you know, uh, checks on that power so that if an application or a platform does really start to go down the wrong direction on moderation, then people can have this credible exit. [01:01:36] This way of saying, you know what, that's a problem. We're moving from here. And somebody else can come in with different policies that better fit people's people's expectations about what should be done at, at these levels. So yeah, it's not about taking away authority, it's about checking authority, you know, kind of a checks and balances mentality. [01:01:56] Jeremy: And high level, 'cause you saying how there's such a high volume of, of things that you know what it is, you'd know you wanna remove it, but there's just so much of it. So is there, do you have automated tools to label these things? Do you have a team of moderators? Do they have to understand all the different languages that are coming through your network? [01:02:20] Yes, yes, yes and yes. Yeah. You use every tool at your disposal to, to stay on top of it. cause you're trying to move as fast as you can, folks. The problems showing up, you know, the slower you are to respond to it, the, the more irritating it is to folks. Likewise, if you make a, a missed call, if somebody misunderstands what's happening, which believe me, is sometimes just figuring out what the heck is going on is hard. [01:02:52] Paul: People's beefs definitely surface up to the moderation misunderstanding or wrong application. Moderators make mistakes so you're trying to maintain a pretty quick turnaround on this stuff. That's tough. And you, especially when to move fast on some really upsetting content that can make its way through, again, illegal stuff, for instance, but more videos, stuff like that, you know, it's a real problem. [01:03:20] So yeah, you're gotta be using some automated systems as well. Clamping down on bot rings and spam. You know, you can imagine that's gotten a lot harder thanks to LLMs just doing text analysis by dumb statistics of what they're talking about that doesn't even work anymore. [01:03:41] 'cause the, the LLMs are capable of producing consistently varied responses while still achieving the same goal of plugging a online betting site of some kind, you know? So we do use kind of dumb heuristic systems for when it works, but boy, that won't work for much longer. [01:04:03] And we've already got cases where it's, oh boy, so the moderation's in a dynamic place to say the least right now with, with LLMs coming in, it was tough before and

Thursday, 28 November 2024   Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, Matthew 5:23   “If, therefore, you might offer your gift upon the altar, and there you might remember that your brother – he has something against you” (CG).   The previous verse conveyed Jesus' words about the strictness of God's judgment in matters such as anger and reviling others with words like Raca and moronic. With that remembered, Jesus continues with, “If, therefore, you might offer your gift upon the altar.”   Everything about this conveys the idea of interacting with God. First, the word prospheró is a word generally used when referring to the offering of gifts, sacrifices, etc. In this case, it is an offering of a dóron, a gift. More often than not, the word is used when referring to gifts or offerings presented to God. Finally, the offering is offered “upon the altar.” This is specifically referring to an altar for sacrifice.   As such, the meaning is that a person is bringing an offering to God at the temple. The purpose of the offering depends on the type of offering. It could be for atonement, fellowship, as a freewill gift (an expression of honor), etc.   Regardless of the type, the person is coming before God. In such an instance, he is to be right with God. However, Jesus next says, “and there you might remember that your brother – he has something against you.”   There in the temple, while about to offer to the Lord, a person is taking a moment for self-examination. One can think of the words of Paul concerning the taking of the Lord's Supper –   “Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” 1 Corinthians 11:27-29   The Christian is now coming before the Lord to symbolically partake in the offering of Christ as his means of reconciliation with God. In essence, he is about to fellowship with God through the remembrance of Christ's death. Although Jesus' words in Matthew 5 are dealing with Jews under the Law of Moses, the parallel is valid.   Both are coming before God in anticipation of a friendly meeting. However, God is there searching the hearts and minds of His people. The Jew, coming to the altar, realizes that he has something wrong between him and his brother (meaning another Jew or even another human in general).   Rather than presumptuously continue with his offering, he will need to get the matter with his brother settled first. This will be seen in the coming verse. Likewise, when a Christian comes before the Lord, he needs to be in a right standing with the Lord and with those he interacts with. To not do so would then be to come forward in “an unworthy manner.” In such an instance, he would then “be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”   Before taking the Lord's Supper, there should be a time of reflection and even confession between the person and the Lord. To not have such an attitude would be presumptuous. The result of such an attitude is explained by Paul –   “For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.” 1 Corinthians 11:30-32   We are to “judge ourselves” and acknowledge that we are unworthy of the great favor of partaking in the Lord's Supper. This does not mean, however, that we might lose our salvation. This is a matter of fellowshipping with the Lord in a right standing. When our attitude is not proper, our fellowshipping is tainted. Paul noted that in such a state, many were sick and “many sleep,” meaning they had died.   Life application: Remember what precipitated Jesus' words of this verse. He has been talking about righteousness before the Lord. The scribes and Pharisees trusted in their own righteousness before God because of their adherence to the law. Jesus never told Israel that the law was unimportant or could be disobeyed.   However, He noted that unless a person's righteousness exceeded that of the scribes and Pharisees, they would not enter the kingdom of the heavens. He then gave an example of past teachings on the issue of murder. He then showed that hating one's brother or maligning him with caustic words was like murdering him in God's eyes.   Now, Jesus is telling them that if their hearts are in a bad state with their brother, it is affecting their fellowship or right standing with the Lord. In bringing an offering at such a time, the offering would not be accepted by God. John explains this type of situation for us to understand how God views such things –   “If someone says, ‘I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.” 1 John 4:20, 21   Lord God, You are looking at our hearts, searching us out, and finding out where our failings are. And yes, our hearts can be deep, dark places of hatred, enmity, and iniquity. Help us, O God, to search ourselves out, cleanse the impurities of our hearts, and come before You, acknowledging that only through Jesus are we worthy of fellowship with You. How thankful we are that You have sent Jesus. Amen.  

Episode 500 – I Am Here, I Am Whole   Today we have Brady. He is 43 years old from Denver, CO and took his last drink on July 18th, 2023.   Whatever day you are on, we want to hear it, see it and support you. On Sundays, head on over to RE on Instagram and post on our Roll Call. Let the world know where you are at.   There are still a few spots open on our next Alcohol-Free travel trip to Vietnam. This upcoming January 9th-20th, 2025, we're heading to this incredible Southeast Asia paradise for 10 days and 11 nights with 25 travelers who are done nursing hangovers.   Starting Monday September 16th, all new registration for Café RE will be added to our community, which is no longer on Facebook. We have found a place that allows us to make these connections better. Beginning October 1st, all current members will start shifting over there as well.   Sponsors mentioned in this episode:   Better Help  - code ELEVATOR   [03:57] Thoughts from Paul:   For 500 straight Mondays, Recovery Elevator has released an episode with someone sharing how they quit drinking. We do this to help, to serve, and also selfishly since Paul and all members of the team are also on this AF journey.   Paul started this podcast in 2015 and just celebrated 10 years since his last drink. He shares how he started the Recovery Elevator Sobriety Tracker. He also shares that since starting, we now have Café RE, have done five international sober travel trips, have had 15 official RE retreats, and over 1500 people have signed up for our courses. Paul shares what he is most happy about are the gains in his personal life. He is married and has a three-month-old son and is well into a creating a life that no longer requires alcohol.   The lyrics to the new intro song: “I am here, I am whole” remind us that there is nothing wrong with us, we are not fractured, and we can correct the imbalance in our lives. And we don't have to do it alone.   [11:00] Paul introduces Brady:   At the time of recording, Brady just celebrated one year alcohol free!   Paul and Brady have been friends for a very long time, and both acknowledge that it's good be on the other side of their drinking times to now sharing sobriety with one another.   Brady and lives in the suburbs of Denver, he is 43 years old and is a realtor and formerly a high school teacher. Brady is married and they have a five-year-old son.   Brady says he drank more than the average high school student. He thinks his drinking in college was on par with normal for that time of life. It wasn't until his late thirties that he started to realize that his relationship with alcohol wasn't good. He feels that the time during COVID just normalized drinking at home for him. It became an everyday thing, and he slowly stopped having any interest in anything other than drinking.   An acute panic attack one night found him feeling empty. When he talked to his mom about it, she asked if he had been drinking. It was then that he started to connect the dots and was on the road to exploring the role alcohol had in his life. He never considered himself an alcoholic, but knew he was not living the life he wanted to.   Since quitting drinking, Brady has lost 20 pounds, is says he is more aware of what he is doing and it's more purposeful. Brady has discovered that everything is clearer now. He mentions listening to The Huberman Lab podcast about alcohol really helped him in addition to Alan Carr's book about quitting drinking. Learning what alcohol really does to us has been an important tool for Brady. He has not attended AA but had a lot of support from people around him and was comfortable sharing with them. Brady has shifted his identity to no longer being a dude that drinks.   Brady's parting piece of guidance: just do it, find those resources that will help you.     Recovery Elevator You took the elevator down, you got to take the stairs back up. We can do this.      

Friends,For your listening enjoyment, we cover several subjects on this podcast: Governor Newsom's proposed redo of San Quentin; Qatar, and its influence peddling in our universities; the DEI's “greeters” at IU Health (an eyewitness account!); the decline of Broadway shows; culminating in Eli Steele's wise words concerning “…the Claudine Gays of the world.”It's a lively show you won't want to miss.Enjoy this beautiful winter season,* even if you live in comfy, albeit chilly, California.As always, thanks for sharing the podcast and…Thank YOU for Joining Us!Philip and D. Paul* For those in the “snow belt,” don't forget your boots! Here's Indianapolis, Indiana, this morning, January 6, 2024. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit enteringstageright.substack.com

DISCLAIMER STATEMENT: **This episode is not meant to glorify any of the Serial Killers discussed in this interview, it is a look at the works of the guest.  My heart goes out to the families of the victims and the survivors of these horrific events.  -Paul- **  For the 12th Horror-fying Day of Christmas, we take a break from the world of make believe, and dive into real horror with Author and Filmmaker, John Borowski.  In this episode, we talk about what fascinates the human mind with Serial killers, and why True Crime is so popular. We look at what goes into researching each project, how he tries to separate his work from others, and so much more.   Links To Mention: https://www.facebook.com/johnborowskiart http://www.johnborowski.com/ https://twitter.com/johnborowskiart https://www.instagram.com/johnborowskifilmmaker/ https://twitter.com/MooseMediainc https://www.facebook.com/groups/moosemediainc https://electronicmediacollective.com/moose/  

Episode 407 – A Message to Big Alcohol   Today we have Jeff, 48, from Joplin Missouri with 13 days of sobriety at time of recording   Registration for Restore opens December 1. https://www.recoveryelevator.com/restore/   Exact Nature: https://exactnature.com/RE20   Highlights from Paul   For the first time in this podcast, Paul speaks to Big Alcohol. Why now? We have a limited time together on each episode he has felt that discussing how to live a better life without the stuff is better use of our time.   He addresses the fact that Big Alcohol's greatest customers are the alcoholic/problem drinkers and not the “normal” drinker that has one or two beers and the rest sits in the fridge for months.  They are also responsible for perpetuating the myth that alcohol consumption is good for you.  Spoiler alert:  it's not.  The Huberman Lab Podcast has an episode that dives deep into the effects alcohol has on the brain/body. (https://hubermanlab.com/what-alcohol-does-to-your-body-brain-health)   The amount of trash that can be found on the sides of the road is about a 10/1 ratio alcohol related vs. non-alcohol related.  Paul asks if Big Alcohol is ok with the remnants of their product being strewn all over the planet via human wreckage and excessive trash.   Paul clarifies that his goal is to not fight with Big Alcohol. His battle with alcohol and alcoholism made him who he is today, and he appreciates that. But maybe they would be willing to share just a half of a percentage point of their marketing budget to help us clean up the mess their product has created both on humans and on our planet. We'd be interested to collaborate on our next service project.  You can reach us at info@recoveryelevator.com   Better Help:  www.betterhelp.com/elevator - 10% off your first month. #sponsored   [10:59] Jeff lives in Joplin, MO currently, but grew up in NC.  He has a wife and three children aged 6, 4 and 8 months.  He recently started his own business and enjoys golf, reading, creative writing and poetry, and writing and playing music.   Jeff took his first drink with a friend at home when he was 17.  He remembers the occasional drink at a party in high school but didn't really start drinking until he turned 21.  Through his 20's drinking was part of life.  He was able to cut back or quit drinking whenever he felt it was getting to be too much.    Jeff says he didn't have a true rock bottom moment but after an incident that found him ramping up his drinking, he chose to seek some counseling for PTSD.  He started to realize that the way he had been drinking and handling life was becoming unsustainable.  He wants to be present for his family and didn't feel that he was able to enjoy life while drinking.   Jeff found himself going to his first AA meeting in many years 13 days ago, has found a sponsor and attends meetings daily.  He has been staying busy with home projects and acts of service and feels that working with his hands relieves stress and helps him avoid getting lost in negative thought patterns.    Jeff doesn't have a long-term goal in sobriety, he is just taking it day by day.  Right now, he just wants to be sober and process his emotions without alcohol and enjoy his family and the life he has built.   [47:57] Paul's Summary   Socrates said the secret to change is to focus all your energy not on fighting the old but on building the new.  Mother Teresa said she would not participate in wars on hunger or on terrorism because there is an equal amount of disproportionate energy on the other side.  Much like we have seen with the war on drugs: trillions of dollars wasted to learn that you cannot punish addiction out of people.  If someone from Big Alcohol is listening, please don't feel attacked, we want to work together in cleaning up the planet.   Resources Connect with Cafe RE - Use the promo code OPPORTUNITY to waive the set-up fee. Recovery Elevator YouTube - Subscribe here! Sobriety Tracker iTunes    Recovery Elevator This isn't a no to alcohol, but a yes to a better life. I love you guys  

Thank you for listening. In categorizing episodes for the new website, we should revisit some past episodes with the editing I now use. Today's episode is the beginning of those presentations. Today we reprise our very first devotional episode. Early devotionals were not numbered in the beginning. Therefore this episode is not Devotional 001, but 093. How do you like them apples? (lol out loud.) Two special features: 1. We edited the episode with our new processes, which left out comments now out of time, and some of the miscues we made before we edited at all! (You are welcome.) 2. We have added this to www.frponprayer.com episode, edited for the written word as a blog of the same name. As the podcast's principal, I am working on the sound (as is our wont). Forgive, I pray, the uneven sound quality. That said, we received excellent feedback from this episode over the last four years, and we pray from our closet that it remains edifying to all who listen. Our goal in our efforts for a growing, Biblical, dynamic, sincere, soul-satisfying, God-glorifying prayer life is to be able to say with Paul… For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. 2 Timothy 2:12 Not to know about Him, or what is said of Him, or even what we have seen Him do, but to be so intimate with Him that He is our only confidence. "What a man is on his knees before God, that he is and nothing more." Robert Murray M'Cheyne Assistant Editor: Seven Jefferson Gossard www.frponprayer.com freerangeprayer@gmail.com Facebook - Free Range Preacher Ministries Instagram: freerangeministries All our Scripture quotes are drawn from the NASB 1977 edition. For access to the Voice Over services of Richard Durrington, please visit RichardDurrington.com or email him at Durringtonr@gmail.com Our podcast art was designed by @sammmmmmmmm23 Instagram Season 005 Episode 034

The Close Shave - (B&B Investigations, #3) The latest case involves one of Donna's old classmates - wed to a mysterious stranger, left destitute... now her life is in danger! Written and produced by Julie Hoverson  Cast List Paul Bette  - Joel Harvey Donna Bella  - Julie Hoverson Goldy Tailor  - Crystal Thomson Captain OftheGuard - Reynaud LeBoeuf Rumplestiltskin  - Philomen Vanderbeck Mrs. Edwina Beard - Rhys TM Mr. Beard - Benjamin Lind Mr. Rexmusson - H. Keith Lyons Mulva - Katharine D. Clark Frederick - Cary Ayers Thug - Danar Hoverson Music by  Somewhere off Jazz Street Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's 1940s detective agency... with a twist, can't you tell?" *********************************************** The Close Shave Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Paul Bette Donna Bella Goldy Tailor Captain OftheGuard Mrs. Edwina Beard Mr. Beard Mr. Rexmusson, Edwina's father Rumplestiltskin thug Frederick, the butler Mulva, the new wife OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's the office of a private eye, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may I --[cuts off in disgust]  Sorry.  We don't need no cleaning staff. EDWINA    [very posh sounding, correcting her]  Any cleaning staff. GOLDY    [puzzled] Any cleaning staff, what? EDWINA    [dismissive mutter] I'm surprised you don't rhyme.  [up] I am here to hire a private investigator.  I have heard that this firm is very.... discreet. SOUND    DOOR OPENS GOLDY    Discreet yes.  Cheap no.  You better have-- DONNA    Edwina?  Edwina Rexmusson? EDWINA    [cussing]  Oh, goblins.  [up, false gushy]  Donna!  It's been simply ages! DONNA    What are you doing here?  And what's with the getup? EDWINA    [trying to keep composure] Oh... Donna!  Are you ...here to hire an investigator as well?  DONNA    Um, no.  I... am the investigator. EDWINA    [snooty] Oh? DONNA    [sharp] Dressed like THAT, I wouldn't sneer, sweetheart.  [nicer]  Besides, whatever's wrong, I'm probably the only investigator in town who could truly understand.  Come along.  [to Goldy] Do we have any cocoa? EDWINA    [breaking into tears] Oh!  You remembered! DONNA    [stage whisper]  And a box of tissues.  [to Edwina]  My office is right over here. MUSIC    VOICEOVER DONNA    Edwina was one of those snooty girls I'd gone to school with, back before my family's fortunes fell.  [losing track] Funny.  Failed to figure on fff-- [thinks, sighs] alliteration.  [back]  From what I could recall, though I hadn't really paid attention, she'd dropped out of sight about a year back.  Her current state, dressed in - well let's face it - rags, haggard and undernourished, was shocking.  GOLDY    Flabbergasting, even. DONNA    Shh! PAUL    Do you need me? DONNA    Not yet.  You're still on that breach of contract, aren't you? PAUL    I've just about got it wrapped up.  Found three crickets and a snail that will swear to witnessing the ball retrieval.  [confident] He'll get what's coming to him.  I'll just listen in?  If you don't mind?  Nothing more boring than a stakeout. DONNA    Gotcha.  [clears throat] I waited for Edwina to calm down enough to talk. MUSIC    FADES OUT EDWINA    [blows nose excessively into handkerchief]  DONNA    Try some cocoa.  You'll feel better.  Now take your time and tell me what's wrong. EDWINA    [sips, sighs]  Oh... It's my husband. DONNA    Oh?  I guess I didn't know you were married.  Not that I've been much in society recently. EDWINA    Oh! yes.  Maybe you are the one person who can understand.  My father was absolutely set on my marrying, but I wanted... well... DONNA    A career? EDWINA    No. DONNA    Romance? EDWINA    No. DONNA    A Pony?  What? EDWINA    [painful admission] I just wanted... my own way.  More than anything else, I didn't want to give in and do what father wanted. DONNA    I take it he was not amused? EDWINA    [mirthless laugh]  He kept parading eligible bachelors around, and I... I kept shooting them down.  This one was too fat, that one too thin, that one too hairy-- DONNA    There's something cuddly about "hairy". EDWINA    Oh, don't even go there!!!  Why my husband-- DONNA    Sorry!  EDWINA    So father, exasperated, said I would be married before my birthday, like it or not.  And if I wouldn't take any of the suitable men, I would end up [sniffles] wed to the first man to come to the door.  [sobs, then wails]  Even if he was a pattycake!!! DONNA    What's wrong with--? EDWINA    [wails]  Waaahhhh! DONNA    Yowtch.  And this was last year? EDWINA    [sniffs, then tries to calm] Almost exactly a year ago.  How can I forget?  The day before my 21st birthday, my father tossed me at this.... "person", ran the paperwork through, and threw me out of the house.  Since then... Well, you see how I am. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    For all her suffering, Edwina was holding up pretty well.  She had gone from pampered princess to long-suffering housewife in one fell swoop.  Had to learn to cook, clean, and even run her husband's little china shop.  She'd been tempered in the fire.  And she used to be nothing BUT temper. GOLDY    There's plenty like that. DONNA    I am ignoring you.  MUSIC     CUTS OUT SUDDENLY EDWINA    Me? DONNA    Sorry.  Nothing.  So what exactly do you need help with?  EDWINA    Oh, that!  Someone is trying to kill me. DONNA    Really? MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    Suddenly a simple domestic case had turned very interesting indeed.  DONNA    Edwina said that on two different occasions, there had been "accidents" that might have killed her, if not for this "strange man".  MUSIC FADES SOUND    IN CAR PAUL    Did she say what he looked like? DONNA    She said he looked vaguely familiar, but had a scarf covering the lower half his face.  PAUL    And these "accidents?" DONNA    Nothing she could take to the cops.  She felt a hand push her on a street corner, and would have gone right out into traffic.  Except... PAUL    Except for this stranger? DONNA    Yes.  He grabbed her and pulled her back.  That was the first time.  She wrote it off, figuring someone just lost their balance. PAUL    But... then? DONNA    Yeah.  She'd just shut up shop for the night, was heading home, and a piano fell on her. PAUL    You're kidding?!? DONNA    Nope.  It was being lifted to an upstairs apartment, and the ropes just... gave way.  PAUL    And the guy? DONNA    Swooped in on a motorcycle and pushed her out of the way. PAUL    At best, he's been following her everywhere.  DONNA    At worst, he's part of it. PAUL    So she wants us to-- DONNA    First, find out who might be trying to kill her.  Second find this guy.  And [sigh] If we find out anything about her husband along the way.... PAUL    [grr]  I hate matrimony cases.  [backpedaling] not that I hate matrimony, though!  [a moment, musing/hinting]  Cuddly? DONNA    What? PAUL    [too quick] Nothing. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER PAUL    I figured I'd start with a trip to the delivery company, see who might have ordered that piano-- DONNA    Or who inquired about it.  PAUL    Yes.  Was this accident a spur of the moment crime, or something much more sinister? DONNA    I decided to look into who might want Edwina dead, and why.  I had a few contacts at the hall of records who liked nothing better than rooting out such juicy tidbits of gossip. PAUL    What are you thinking? DONNA    There's only a couple of possible motives for murder - money and passion being the best possibilities in this case.  DONNA    And since Edwina's father cut her off without a simolean to her name, there either had to be money she didn't know about-- PAUL    Long lost heirs?  That's a stretch. DONNA    [a bit annoyed] OR it had to do with her husband, the aptly named Mr. Beard. PAUL    First name? DONNA    Apparently they're not that familiar. PAUL    [flabbergasted!] What? MUSIC CUTS OUT SUDDENLY PAUL    Seriously?  She doesn't know his first name? DONNA    He doesn't talk to her much, except to give orders. PAUL    Even... um... when...? DONNA    [hinting] They sleep in separate rooms. PAUL    [stunned] Oh.  Who IS this guy? DONNA    That's what I plan to find out.  Ah!  Hall of records.  My stop. PAUL    Right.  Meet for dinner? DONNA    Of course. MUSIC    VOICEOVER PAUL    I watched her walk away, a red-haired slither of pure lusciousness.  [grr] At least until the car behind me started to honk. SOUND    HONK ENDS VOICEOVER MUSIC SOUND    CAR STARTS SOUND    PHONE RINGS, PICKS UP GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may I direct-- EDWINA    [on filter] It happened again! GOLDY    What happened? EDWINA    Just tell Donna!  Get her to come to my place.  She has the address.  Quickly! Before my husband gets home! GOLDY    I'll see what I can do. EDWINA    It's a matter of life and death! SOUND    PHONE HANGS UP, IS SET DOWN GOLDY    Hmm.  Now let's see - How do they DO that? MUSIC    FOR VOICEOVER GOLDY    Well, that was easy.  [speaking loudly, as if trying to be noticed]  I was trying desperately to figure out how to get a message to my boss, Donna Bella. DONNA    You don't have to yell! GOLDY    [normal tone] The client called. DONNA    Edwina. GOLDY    We ain't been formally introduced.  Besides, I'm trying to be all professional here. DONNA    OK, just tell me what you got. GOLDY    She needs you over there lickety split. DONNA    Did she actually say--? GOLDY    I'm paraphrasing.  DONNA    Fine.  Now leave the voiceover to me.  [beat]  Ok.  I caught a cab and raced to Edwina's fifth floor walkup.  It was as old and careworn as her dress.  I really started to sympathize.  MUSIC    OUT SOUND    KNOCKING ON THE DOOR EDWINA    [shriek] Who is it? DONNA    It's me! SOUND    HEAVY FOOTSTEP, DOWN THE HALL DONNA    [gasp]  Hello? SOUND    LOTS OF LOCKS UNLOCKING DONNA    [whispered to the door] I'll be right back! EDWINA    No! DONNA    Shh! SOUND    QUIET STEPS MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    I was pretty sure I'd seen movement down around the dimly lit corner.  I'm not usually the physical type - I leave all that to Paul-- PAUL    [distant] [laughing hysterically] DONNA    [grim and determined] --BUT I wanted to at least get a glimpse of whoever it was that was spying on Edwina's door.  MUSIC OUT SOUND    QUICK STEPS DONNA    Hah! SOUND    DOOR SHUTS QUICKLY MUSIC IN DONNA    I rushed up, but the series of locks - a strangely familiar series of locks - was already being thrown.  I waited a moment, then peered through the keyhole, straining for any glimpse of the perpetrator. GOLDY    What did you see? DONNA    Out! MUSIC OUT DONNA    Not you, her! MUSIC IN GOLDY    Fine.  PAUL    What did you see? DONNA    Let me talk to Edwina first. MUSIC OUT SOUND    TAP ON DOOR, DOOR WRENCHED OPEN EDWINA    What happened? DONNA    Nothing.  Thought I heard something. EDWINA    It was probably a mouse.  They're in half the apartments here. DONNA    Can't they get rid of them? EDWINA    [shrug] Not unless they get behind on the rent. MUSIC IN PAUL    Let me take this and give you ladies some privacy. DONNA    Sounds good.  I might be a little late. PAUL    No problem.  [voiceover]  I had had a frustrating day.  The moving company was paid in cash, and the apartment they were delivering to had been rented under a false name.  GOLDY    Back at the office, a pile of official looking papers that Donna had messengered, arrived.  If you're bored or anything. PAUL    I still have leads to follow up. GOLDY    I'm shutting up for the day.  You have fun. PAUL    [sigh]  Some days you wonder why you even need a secretary-- GOLDY    [distant] I heard that! PAUL    [thinking quick] And then you recall how much time you haveta spend away from the office, and it all becomes clear.  [waits a second]  Phew!  She does come in handy.  [narrating]  I walked into the bar where the lowest denizens of the city hung out, and lowest among them-- MUSIC OUT PAUL    Hey, Rump.  RUMPY    Not tonight, Bette.  I got lady trouble. PAUL    Really?  You? RUMPY    You don't have to sound so.... so... PAUL    Sorry. RUMPY    Take it from me, don't ever let one of them find out your real name.  [drinks deep]  So you here for a social call?  PAUL    You know better. SOUND    CLINK OF COINS ON COUNTER PAUL    But I can make it worth your while. RUMPY    I'll drink that in the next 10 minutes. PAUL    Give me something good, and you'll get another half hour's worth. RUMPY    What's the question? PAUL    Mr. Rexmussen and his daughter Edwina.  Anything you know. RUMPY    Off the top of my head?  And drunk?  Nothing.  SOUND    COINS BEING DRAGGED AWAY PAUL    Oh. RUMPY    Except-- SOUND    COINS STOP MOVING PAUL    Go on. RUMPY    I do know that just about a year ago, daddy dearest said he was gonna hitch her to the first dude to come to the door, and there was a virtual stampede to get there - but this mug Beard was already at the head of the line. PAUL    Like he... knew in advance? RUMPY    Could be...  or... [trails off suggestively, drinks] SOUND    TWO MORE COINS SET DOWN RUMPY    More like he kind of appeared out of nowhere.  No one knew him before.  No one knows when he came to town.  Nothing. PAUL    Hmm... SOUND    COUPLE MORE COINS RUMPY    That's all I got.  SOUND    SHOVES COINS RUMPY    Now leave me to my misery. PAUL    Nah.  Keep it.  MUSIC in PAUL    So a Beard with no roots.  But who could have known that Edwina's dad was going to go ballistic? GOLDY    Daddy probably set it all up with the mug.  To teach her a lesson.  Sounds like she was a holy terror. PAUL    I thought you went home. GOLDY     They ain't nothing good on the radio. PAUL    While I could consult an oracle or two about the mysterious Mr. Beard, the price would be a bit too high for a charity case-- GOLDY    What about who might want to kill her? PAUL    I had no leads as yet-- GOLDY    Oh, yes you do. PAUL    I do? GOLDY    These papers - I took em home, just in case someone might come looking. PAUL    Are you really worried about that? GOLDY    Nah.  But they ain't nothing good on the radio.  Anyway, you wanted to know about money motives, and there's some interesting stuff in here. PAUL    This should really be on the phone.  Voiceovers aren't made for conversations. GOLDY    You two do it all the time! PAUL    [abashed] We try not to. GOLDY    Fine.  [ahem] After going through the stack of papers - a thankless task, by the way - I realized that Edwina happened to have a birthday coming up. PAUL    [dismissive] She already mentioned that. GOLDY    AND that this would be her 22nd birthday.  When she would just happen to come into a huge trust fund.  UNLESS she weren't married yet, then she don't get her mitts on the cash til she's 30. PAUL    [interested] Really? GOLDY    UNLESS again - she was to happen to kick off before she made it to 22.  PAUL    Hmm...  Who-- GOLDY    IN WHICH CASE the money would revert to... ta-da!  her father. PAUL    Rexmussen?  But he's rich. GOLDY    Interesting, innit? DONNA    Whew.  I had just spent the longest evening of my life, and-- GOLDY    We're already on this line. DONNA    What? PAUL    But we're pretty much done. DONNA    What? GOLDY    Besides, I'm already clocked out for the evening. DONNA    [growl] what? PAUL    Goldy took the time to sort through all the paperwork we hadn't yet got around to... DONNA    [back to normal] Oh.  Anything? PAUL    Tell you at dinner. DONNA    About time! MUSIC OUT SOUND    RESTAURANT PAUL    --which doesn't make any sense, because he's rolling in dough. DONNA    Nothing in this case makes sense, and we've only got one more day before Edwina's birthday.  PAUL    We better stay with her.  DONNA    I had this little idea... PAUL    Yeah? DONNA    This mystery man appears every time she looks to be in danger, so... PAUL    ["getting it"] Mmm. DONNA    Let skip ahead. PAUL    Get some rest. DONNA    Mwa! PAUL    [appreciative growl] MUSIC IN DONNA    Morning came, and I was back with Edwina.  Her husband hadn't even come home, but had phoned to insist she still open the store as usual.  She was frantic. MUSIC OUT SOUND    STREET, FOOTSTEPS EDWINA    [controlled] Thank you so much for coming with me.  I'm simply frantic. DONNA    Don't worry about it.  We'll get to the bottom of all this. SOUND    RUSHING FEET PAUL    [roar] EDWINA    [scream!] SOUND    SCUFFLE BEARD    [oof!] DONNA    You got him?  Calm down, Eddie! EDWINA    [gasp] What?  Who is it?  Oh!  That's him!  That's the guy! PAUL    Let's get inside.  Come on.  EDWINA    [whisper] Who's that? DONNA    My partner.  He's good people. EDWINA    He's hardly "people", wouldn't you say? DONNA    Don't knock it, sister! SOUND    DOOR SHUTS PAUL    Okay, pal, you better start talking. EDWINA    Don't hurt him!  He's the one who's been saving me! PAUL    [tough sounding]  No one needs to get hurt - but someone DOES need to talk. BEARD    [mutters something] PAUL    What's that? BEARD    [low whisper] Just you.  I'll talk to you.  Not the ladies. PAUL    You all right with that?  We'll catch up. SOUND    SNAP FINGERS MUSIC In SUDDENLY DONNA    Edwina and I went on to the shop, careful to avoid any potentially life threatening situations. MUSIC OUT SOUND    SHOP DOOR, WITH BELL EDWINA    He's not going to hurt him, is he? DONNA    I don't think it will come to that. EDWINA    Good.  I-- I think I'm in love. DONNA    [stunned] What?  With that-- EDWINA    Handsome stranger who keeps saving my life? DONNA    You've got a point.  But what about your husband? EDWINA    I hardly ever see him.  He doesn't care. DONNA    And how do you know this guy is handsome?  His face was all covered in that scarf. EDWINA    [deep excited breath]  Oh!  His piercing eyes!  So mysterious.  T think--  [almost something]  I think he's shy. DONNA    While it's nice to see some color in your cheeks again, I think we need to shelve this until we solve the death-related part of the mystery. EDWINA    [sigh] All right. DONNA    Last night, I asked about the suitors you turned down.  Did you have a chance to make a list? EDWINA    Oh!  I forgot.  So sorry. DONNA    We've got some time now. EDWINA    Oh, all right. Um... There was Bob Porthos-- DONNA    The entrepreneur?  [whistles] EDWINA    He was really fat.  And Fred Crotchety, are you taking these down? DONNA    Mind like a steel trap.  Crotchety? EWINA    Old.  And don't even get me started on King Cole. DONNA    The Merry old - ah! "Old"? EDWINA    [duh!] Pattycake. DONNA    Hmm.  Let me guess, there was something wrong with every single one of them. EDWINA    Pretty much.  And if it wasn't something obvious, like being really short, or having terrible halitosis, I'd just pick on whatever was handy. DONNA    Bet you regret that now. EDWINA    You said it.  I might have spent the last year in the lap of luxury with my old, fat or smelly husband.  [thinks]  Hmm.  I guess I'm actually rather lucky. DONNA    Really? EDWINA    My husband is standoffish and emotionally unavailable, but at least he's not fat, old or smelly. DONNA    [slightly sarcastic] And doesn't talk in rhyme. EDWINA    [the horror!] Heaven forbid!!  SOUND    DOOR SLAMS OPEN DONNA    Paul? THUG    Both of you, hands up! EDWINA    [scream!] THUG    Shut up! EDWINA    [cuts out suddenly with a hiccup] DONNA    Let me guess - you're the next "accident"? THUG    Shut up! DONNA    Why should I listen to you? EDWINA    [hissed] Because he's got a gun! THUG    I see she's the smart one. DONNA    What? THUG    Though you got the looks, babe. DONNA    What? EDWINA    Don't anger the thug! DONNA    Just watch.  WHAT? THUG    Now, lets see...  [muses] an accident... SOUND    HEAVY TIPPING NOISE, CROCKERY GOES EVERYWHERE EDWINA    [quick shriek, muffled] THUG    [telling himself a story] So someone broke in, and-- [sudden surprised gasp of pain] MUSIC IN PAUL    The mystery man had only half satisfied my curiosity when we heard screams from the vicinity of Edwina's pottery shop. THUG    [screams like a girl] MUSIC OUT BEARD    Something's happening! PAUL    [chuckles] They'll be fine.  Finish what you were saying. BEARD    [melodramatic] I'll tell you whatever you want - AFTER we save her! PAUL    [sigh] All right. MUSIC IN PAUL    He had it so bad it was almost cute.  How could I refuse, being a fellow sufferer of that aeons-old disease called love? MUSIC OUT SOUND    DOOR CREAKS OPEN, CRASH OF PLATE DONNA    Hah! PAUL    See? BEARD    [surprised] Oh.  You're all right! EDWINA    Yes! DONNA    This guy-- SOUND    RUSTLE AS SHE KICKS HIM THUG    [groan] DONNA    Broke in.  He won't talk.  [sweetly] I told him my partner is the really scary one. PAUL    Don't worry about it.  I think I know where this is all leading. DONNA    Really? PAUL    Yes.  Shh. EDWINA    [melodramatic, to Beard] It can never be. BEARD    What? EDWINA    I'm... I'm married.  No matter that it wasn't my choice.  It-- BEARD    It's all right. EDWINA    No, it's not!  You keep saving me, and making me love - uh - like - uh - appreciate you.  It's not fair.  To you. BEARD    You wouldn't consider... running off with me? EDWINA    A year ago, I might have said yes.  In a heartbeat.  But I'm not that same shallow girl any more.  I simply can't break a solemn vow.  You should go. DONNA    [sad] Ohhh! PAUL    [reassuring] Shh. EDWINA    Just know this.  I love you! BEARD    I've waited so long to hear you say that. EDWINA    [confused] You ...have? PAUL    [whispered] Now for the big reveal. SOUND    RUSTLE OF FABRIC EDWINA    You! DONNA    Who? PAUL    Guess. DONNA    I don't know anyone with a beard that thick. BEARD    I'm so sorry I had to do it this way, but-- SOUND    THUMP, HISS PAUL    Really?  A grenade?  [grunt of effort] SOUND    HISSING FLIES OFF SOUND    DISTANT EXPLOSION, SHRIEK OF PAIN & SURPRISE PAUL    Now that that's sorted out, I think it's time. DONNA    Time? PAUL    For the big denouement.  And... I think a police presence is in order. DONNA    Where's a phone? EDWINA    What's going on?  BEARD    Don't worry, my darling.  I'll still always protect you. MUSIC IN PAUL    We did a quick gathering of the suspects and arrived at Mr. Rexmussen's sumptuous estates with only half an hour to spare. DONNA    Before what? PAUL    The birthday. GOLDY    I'm the one that caught that! DONNA AND PAUL    Shut up! GOLDY    Hmph.  Keep me posted. PAUL    Rexmussen's estate was a sprawling mass of putting green and ornamental garden, all surrounding a palatial sort of ... palace. DONNA    Evocative. PAUL    I've been studying Old Possum's word a day column in the Times. DONNA    [chuckles] GOLDY    uh-uh-uh!  Conversation! DONNA    Fine!  SOUND    MUSIC OUT SOUND    KNOCKING ON DOOR SOUND    TEENSY WINDOW OPENS BUTLER    Please good folks!  This is not right!  Banging on the door all night! PAUL    [grr] Pattycakes. EDWINA    [Imperious]  Rouse my father, Frederick. BUTLER    The master sleeps, he will not wake.  I beg you now, your leave to take. SOUND    WINDOW SHUTS DONNA    Blast.  If only-- SOUND    POLICE SIRENS BURP, THEN CUT OUT PAUL    [concerned] Ohhh boy. DONNA    Captain Oftheguard!  So glad you came!  Wait - I didn't - did you? PAUL    [grrrr]  No. OFTHEGUARD    Your secretary called, said you're having some kind of ...denouement... at this here address? PAUL    [muttered] She'll never let us live this one down. DONNA    [wheedling] We need to get inside, Bruce, and talk to Edwina's father!  Right now, before there's a murder! OFTHEGUARD    We'll see about that. SOUND    OFFICIAL POUNDING BEARD    No one's going to murder you! EDWINA    Oh, [falters] OH!  [whispers]  You never told me your first name. BEARD    Oh...  uh...  [horrible admission] Van dyke. EDWINA    Really?  I would have pegged you as a garibaldi, or maybe a franz-josef with a side order of Z-Z. BEARD    [surprised] So you know my brothers? SOUND    DOOR OPENS OFTHEGUARD    Hey!  Mother goose.  Get your boss out here.  This is the police. FREDERICK    You needn't speak in such a tone.  My job is to see he's left alone. OFTHEGUARD    hmph.  My job trumps your boss's orders - now let us through your fancy borders. DONNA    Oh, Bruce!  I never knew you were bilingual! PAUL    [growl] Enough!  I'll get us in. SOUND    MUSIC IN PAUL    It wasn't long before we were all sitting in Rexmussen's main sitting room. MUSIC OUT PAUL    So there. EDWINA    Not to be confused with the informal withdrawing room, or the salon. REXMUSSEN    [cold] So nice to have you home again dear. EDWINA    [cold] Papa.  [kiss kiss] OFTHEGUARD    I believe there was a denouement in the offing?  Or are we here for pinochle? REXMUSSUN    A Denouement?  Surely you don't mean--? SOUND    LIGHT FEET ENTER MULVA    [sexy little number] Rex, Honey?  I miss my bunny? EDWINA    [horrified] Papa! REXMUSSUN     [covering, stiff] Go back to bed, Mulva.  We'll talk in the morning. EDWINA    Papa!?  What is ... that?  [disgust] Her? DONNA    That's a whole nother denouement!  Quick, music! SOUND    MUSIC IN, SOUND OF EDWINA AND REXMUSSUN ARGUING UNDER REXMUSSUN    I knew you would never be able to accept-- EDWINA    A pattycake?  Father!  How could you! MULVA    Love is blind to age or youth.  We knew you wouldn't like the truth. REXMUSSUN    You don't need to be here, dearest, to take this abuse. EDWINA    I'm glad mother's dead!  This sort of ...perversion - it would have killed her to know. [now the voiceover] PAUL    Could this have been another motive?  Or part of the answer we already had? DONNA    We knew we had to sort it out quickly, or lose what might be our only chance to resolve this issue. PAUL    The money in the trust goes back to dear old dad if she dies in the next 15 minutes, right? DONNA    I think-- GOLDY    [snide] That's what the papers said.  DONNA    Fine.  Thanx.  What else did they say. GOLDY    Oh, so now you need me-- PAUL    Get on with it!  We're in the denouement! GOLDY    Dad's loaded.  The entire trust wouldn't make pocket change for him. DONNA    And his new wife? GOLDY    Oh, that took a couple of very tricky phone calls.  Seems they went out of state for a nice quiet little ceremony - the day AFTER dear daughter was whisked away to be wed. PAUL    So maybe this had nothing to do with the money at all? DONNA    What are we left with? EVERYONE     GASPS PAUL    That sounds like something.  Quick! SOUND    MUSIC OUT EDWINA    The lights! OFTHEGUARD    Everyone stay where you are.  BEARD    I'm here. SOUND    RUSTLE, THEN FOOTSTEPS PAUL    Was anyone near the lights when they went out? EDWINA    We were a bit...um... involved in a family ... discussion. DONNA    Where are the -- SOUND    GUNSHOT EDWINA    [QUICK scream] BEARD    Oh no! DONNA    Quick!  Paul! SOUND    HEAVY FOOTSTEPS PAUL    [growl] FREDERICK    Off, you beast!  Get off of me!  I'm no prey for such as thee! PAUL    Just for that! [unh!] SOUND    SMACK SOUND    CLICK OF LIGHTS BACK ON OFTHEGUARD    Him!? EDWINA    A servant? REXMUSSUN    Frederick? DONNA    [whispered] Paul?  But why?  Do you think he was paid? PAUL    [muttered] Hmm.  No.  [up]  Oftheguard, I'll hand him over.  OFTHEGUARD    What's the charge?  Or at least the motive? EDWINA    Yes!  What could he possibly get out of killing me?  He's not in any position to inherit. DONNA    No one is - now.  PAUL    Except your husband.  BEARD    I've got plenty of my own, thanks. DONNA    Your birthday came and went 8 minutes ago.  So this attempt ... [quizzical] must be unrelated? PAUL    But something else is.  DONNA    Is what? PAUL    Related.  [sharp] Rexmusson!  This young lady may be your second wife, but I wager she's not the first pattycake that you've... um... DONNA    Played pattycake with? PAUL    I was trying for something a bit more pithy, but yes. REXMUSSON    [warning] I'm a very wealthy and powerful man!  [shrug] And everyone needs a hobby. EDWINA    Papa! MULVA    But now I am your one and only?  You'll never have to be so lonely. REXMUSSON    [not quite convincing] Of course, dear. EDWINA    This is just disgusting.  I don't need to hear any more of this-- PAUL    Just a bit more.  Frederick?  How long have you worked here? EDWINA    He's been here his entire life.  Since we both [getting it] were children... DONNA    Ahhh.  And his mother?  She worked here, too? EDWINA    [revolted] Oh, now I am definitely leaving. BEARD    Hold on a bit longer.  EDWINA    Hold me! DONNA    So you think that he did it out of revenge?  For her being the pampered one and him getting.... a menial job? PAUL    Perhaps he felt that if there were no longer a legitimate heir to the Rexmusson estate, that his father would have to acknowledge him at last. DONNA    That's a huge bucket full of wishful thinking, you do realize that? REXMUSSON    Even if Edwina was killed, and that would never be my wish, dear, even if we don't see eye to eye on some things-- EDWINA    [conciliatory]  Oh, I should hope not. REXMUSSON    There's still going to be more legit heirs.  Right my little pumpkiny-wumpkiny? MULVA    You'll have a little sister soon.  We've counted down to the end of June. EDWINA    [no longer amused] We're leaving.  Now. BEARD    There's no more danger? OFTHEGUARD    Not from this guy, there ain't. BEARD    Good.  [leaving]  Edwina?  Darling? FREDERICK    Ouch!  Ouch!  Stop that, you!  You hurt my-- OFTHEGUARD    [cutting in] Everloving shoe.  I know, I know.  I've heard it all before.  Now - "Come along quiet, you epic fail.  You're taking a little trip to jail." MUSIC IN PAUL    [snort, then annoyed]  Progressive AND bilingual.  How do you compete with that? DONNA    Hmm? PAUL    Nothing.  [clears throat]  So the case was closed, and for once we could say-- DONNA    With a completely straight face-- PAUL    uh...  [whispered] You want to say it? DONNA    [sultry whisper] Let's do it together? PAUL    [grrrrow!]  Count of three, then.  One Two-- PAUL AND DONNA    The butler did it.  [both laugh] PAUL    You would never leave me, um, I mean the agency, I mean, detective work, for a ... a pattycake, wouldja? DONNA    Never fear, oh hairy one / the job, and you, are much more fun. PAUL    [growl!!]  I do love it when she talks foreign!    

Fr. Steve begins his preaching series on The Family. This week he explores the understanding of a family prepared and the importance of praying new hearts into our Children.  He used the following Scripture verse as a backdrop to how to prepare your family for the world:  Ephesians 3:14-19—Pray for your family like St. Paul For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that he may grant you, in accord with the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner self, 17 and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, be rooted and grounded in love, 18 and may have strength to comprehend with all the holy ones what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ecommerce has come a long way from its early days as a separate part of the company that you set up and just hope to see returns on. Now, ecommerce is pivotal for just about every organization — but there is one faction of businesses that still lags behind. There are $17 trillion dollars worth of B2B payments made every year. Yes, trillion with a T. And half of those payments are still being made manually. Clearly, there is a massive shift that still needs to happen in the B2B space, and Deloitte Digital is helping make those digital transformations a reality.Paul do Forno is the Managing Director at Deloitte Digital, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he helped us understand the struggles B2B brands are facing and how moving them into the digital space could spell a massive change in the ecommerce industry. Paul also dives into some of the major trends he’s keeping an eye on in the ecommerce world, including how ecommerce continues to scale around the globe, most notably in Latin America. Plus, he shares some tips for businesses who are overwhelmed by the amount of channels and platforms they suddenly have to play in. Spoiler: he says do less. Tune in to hear more!Main Takeaways:Massive Call And Response: Bigger brands are struggling to stay connected to their consumers in a way that scales. Today, customers are looking to have a more authentic relationship and connection with the brands they engage with and support. For enterprises, connecting one-to-one is nearly impossible, so they are investing in tools like A.I. and conversational platforms to keep up with this newer generation of customers who crave connection.Dinosaurs Still Exist: So much B2B activity is still done manually, which means that there are trillions of dollars of transactions that could be moving online if/when B2B companies finally shift their activities to the digital space. The problem is that many B2B companies are miles behind their B2C peers in terms of optimizing the digital space for their many personas. It will take a lot of tools and transformation to bring those traditional B2B companies into 2021, but it will be necessary because the next generation is not interested in manually doing business and would much rather work with companies that have effective digital tools.Do Less: Brands can get caught up in the hype and the attempts to keep up with the Joneses. Instead, they should focus on being great at one platform or marketing activity. Plus, it’s critical to never forget the basics — like making sure your email list is generating the leads and engagement it should be to power your business.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Paul de Forno, the managing direction at Deloitte Digital. Paul, welcome.Paul:Thanks. Excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you. I was looking through your background and I saw you were on a list of the hundred most influential people in ecommerce and I was like, we need him. We need Paul. Why do you think you got on that list?Paul:I think first of all, in some ways I'm the old guy who's been around carrying the ecommerce flag for a long time, so I've been doing ecommerce for 20 years. When you've been around that long, 20 years ago it was, trust me, ecommerce is going to be big, honest. Most of the big companies just looked at me and said, "Yeah, it's just a tiny percentage. We don't have the time to focus on it." I've gone through the whole lifecycle from, "Yeah, I don't think ecommerce is going to be big," to, "Oh my god. What are we going to do? Everything is ecommerce."Stephanie:Yep, what did your journey look like? What have you worked on over the years, and then what does your role at Deloitte Digital look like now?Paul:Yeah, I've had some pretty interesting projects all along. We help customers at Deloitte, we're one of the largest implementers and SIs all the way from strategy, studio design, implementation, and run ecommerce and digital platforms. Kind of soup to nuts, end to end for some of the largest Internet retailers both B2C and B2B. My background, I've worked with some of the largest retailers and brands in the world, getting them online, selling, and also supply chain and connecting up all of those things.Paul:I've had the great experience of 20 years ago working with some of the earliest big retail brands of them ... It's kind of funny, when they first started, they treated ecommerce like a store because at the size that they were, on some of them, they were like ... And literally, they would call it store number 1099 and that's the way they treated it almost like a completely separate channel over the to the side. Yeah, let's put some money over there and grow and then see what happens. That from over time, then it became more of a challenge of omnichannel.Paul:How do we make sure that the channels aren't fighting against each other because we dealt with some retailers that literally would ... They wouldn't want returns to come in to the store because those sales and we're not getting them credit, right? That came back and if they exchanged for something else, and so they would be internal fighting because the bonuses of the executives weren't aligned. We've gone kind of like it's off to the side, it's big enough to challenge, to now it's almost the reverse. Retail wants to get more love from the ecommerce side.Stephanie:Yeah, it's a funny and an interesting flip that we see. We've had some guests on the show who said the same thing, like when I started out in ecommerce, they had us in a different building, like on the campus that they were at, they're like, that's the ecommerce team, they're doing their own thing. We've had a couple people say how siloed they were and now, like you said, interesting how retail is like, come on, come give us a little love now.Paul:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:When you're looking through all these trends that are happening right now, I know that back in the day you were going to a lot of conferences, you were flying all over the world probably, and now I see and follow you on Clubhouse. Tell me a bit about how you're staying on top of the trends and what kind of things are you discussing now on Clubhouse or wherever else you're doing these virtual events?Paul:Yeah, I'll maybe separate ... Definitely right now as we're speaking it's almost a year to the day that I haven't been on a plane. In the last 20 years, over a 100,000 to 150,000 miles a year that I've been flying around.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Paul:One, my wife has gotten to know me.Stephanie:Hi, Paul, nice to meet you.Paul:But, it's given me a lot of opportunity to connect digitally and do more research and some of the new tools, like you talked about, Clubhouse, and I'll come back to that. I think what this has just done is accelerated ecommerce and how important that is and commerce everywhere and brought it forward, and there's a lot of interesting trends that have popped out. Some of the things that may not be as evident, so in the past year, one of the biggest growth areas just for convenience has been around the growth of commerce around groceries, because we had to, right? You got a lot of the biggest stores growing and anywhere from 70% to over a 100%, and so a lot of the innovation has happened in groceries because it needed to, right? The companies that invested more have done well.Paul:For example, if you look at how Target has done, right? They were able to stay open because they had groceries and so they actually grew and were more profitable and a lot of that why they grew was their investments in shipped, a number of different way they pick from their stores, and so it's amazing that not only did they grow that much but their profitability on the ecommerce channel went up which is almost unheard of in a time like this. They executed unbelievably well.Paul:Then on the other side, another interesting related to the grocery which kind of because it forced people to try something new, the largest growing segment on online grocery was actually baby boomers, and it's because they never were forced to do it. They were always used to going to the store, and so we really see that as a watershed moment of hey, to get over the hump, hey, this isn't as bad. Then as soon as you try something and you do it a couple times, it's going to change how people behave.Paul:we expect the adoption rate going forward for boomers, for example, and older will continue. It won't necessarily be at the same rate, but is an important threshold that they'll continue to embrace it.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right, so when thinking about these new consumers who are online who weren't thinking this way before, how are you advising brands to communicate and talk and do things differently? Because it is such a different generation coming online. We've had quite a few people mention you have to think very differently when it comes to customer service or even the whole unboxing experience. People want different things. What are you seeing among your biggest brands right now around what's working to connect with this brand new group of users who are not online before?Paul:Yeah, there's a whole bunch of battling trends that are in here. In fact, on Clubhouse we had a discussion around the eco considerations of delivery, and that got into we brought in a packaging expert and one of the interesting thing that we talked about is that, hey, everybody has all these cardboard boxes, right? People would love to find out opportunities to minimize what kind of packaging and we all probably had the experience of getting a huge package and having one little item in it. I think the whole consideration around eco and environmental is something that I just saw some research, that's at the top of the list of considerations.Paul:Things such as that and packaging and reducing it is a factor of when you're designing for stuff. Looking for opportunities that you can batch up or minimizing the packaging or making it recyclable and also balancing having a great opening unboxing experience, and so you have to balance those things, right? The environmental side and also the brand side, which is hey, the expectations of brands such as Apple put on, on this hey, you want this great experience in opening. There's a lot of non ... Things that you didn't have to worry about even 10 years ago because if you look at some of the studies of what gen Z and beyond are looking for, those considerations are much higher up than they were for other generations.Stephanie:It definitely seems like it can set up some of the newer based for failure though because it seems like you always have to stay ahead and be trying something new where it could kind of take you off your path of building a great product and a great company when you get too focused on some of that stuff. How do you think about the trade-off to stay focused but then also stay on top of consumer expectations that seem to have very rapidly changed in the last year where I wasn't really hearing a lot of consumers talking about eco-friendly packaging and really caring about that, and now it seems like that's a huge thing that we're hearing time and time again about this is a new expectation that you have to keep up with now.Paul:I think a little bit about it is around just the how do you be authentic brand? In many ways, some of the trends that we've been seeing is around less production, right? Some of the advertisement or even things that are helping to actually convert much higher are actually user-generated content that people in authentic ... You want to see how real people act, real people and real products, as opposed to a runway model or a runway person showing off this great ... Because of that, first thing we would say is try and be authentic to your brand and especially right now the over-production is actually a hindrance on many brands.Stephanie:For some of the larger brands you work with, I mean, I could see that being hard for them to want to keep up with the times but then also staying authentic to your brand. Like you said, I know it has gotten some companies in trouble for trying to do the cool thing, keep up with whatever that trend is, try and jump on something. When these big brands are coming to you, what are they struggling with right now and how are you working with them around this new UGC kind of content that a lot of these smaller D2C companies are like, yeah, of course, that's what we're going to do, but when it's a large company, they're like, I don't even know how to do that and how do you flag it and how do you think about the content coming in. Can I even trust it? How are you guys guiding them down that path?Paul:I think that for many larger companies in many ways it's kind of a how do you manage dealing with this on scale? Because in some of the smaller brands, dealing with a few interactions, it's somewhat easier, but when you have thousands and thousands of followers, how do you manage that on scale? What they mostly get concerned of, they want to be closer to the consumer and listen to them and interact, but being able to scale that in both a combination of AI related tools and responses, but also people responses that can do it in scale that are tailored to the brand voice, that's the challenge. We kind of work through different strategies to help them get through that.Stephanie:What are some other things that these brands are struggling with? What are you hearing right now that they're trying to work with you on?Paul:Yeah, and we work with brands both from B2C to B2B, and so I'll actually give two examples just to get a broad spectrum. On the B2C side, I think the ... And depending on the different segment. The B2C side on CPG we're seeing massive spikes because of all the purchases that we've seen especially going through stores, and that's a lot of the food, CPGs are just spiking. They're trying to figure out, okay, great. This is a great opportunity to scale. How do we now embrace and engage and maybe put out some direct to consumer feelers to learn?Paul:In many ways, a lot of the CPGs are going way more direct. Some of the largest scale CPG companies are doing record numbers of doing ecommerce, but they also partner with massive retail chains. They're trying to balance of not stepping on their channel conflicts, and so many are using ecommerce as a mechanism to explore, do special arrangements, special formulations, and learn and get data. As we see, for example, in that area is just there's been so much innovation going on, they're trying to keep up to the pace. They struggle with, well, what do I do first? How do I prioritize on some of these? Most of it is around helping to prioritize and segment some of the ideas to get them into marketplace faster.Stephanie:Trying to keep up with what's happening really quickly, I've seen a lot of them acquiring these smaller D2C companies and kind of putting them in a mini innovation hub where it's like we don't want to disrupt your process but we want to learn from you. Do you see that as a successful strategy for some of these more legacy brands to be able to learn while also keeping their brand identity or is that not really working?Paul:Yeah, I've seen some awesome acquisitions and unbelievable great talent that some of the large ... Just to stick to the CPG space, that's been probably the most aggressive of picking up new brands and learning, right? I think it's actually a brilliant ... That's why some of the premiums are getting paid. It's not just necessarily for the product and what margins, it's also from the know-how, because what ends up happening if you look, and this is something that that's probably the area that Club CPG on Clubhouse is probably one of the largest clubs and they have an amazing talent there, and there's been a number of acquisitions and they're on there talking about their story.Paul:What's really good about doing some of those acquisitions is these people have been very close to the customer, right? They've really interacted, as opposed to you're getting perhaps a new executive who's rotated around, right? These people understand the customer and had that relationship, had to build up the D2C. They really know all the different channels. They're able to provide that voice to the customer and how to go direct so much more. I've seen it be really successful and understand especially some of the early purchases that they've made. It's actually worked out really well, more from the people experience than even the product.Stephanie:It does seem like you can lose sight of that the larger you get, especially the more data you're getting. It's hard to get as informed and be able to actually find trends or themes. When you're working with a lot of these companies, what is your measurement of success when you're like, okay, we are going to transform this company. We're going to bring you guys to 2021 and what's relevant now. How do you look back and see if a digital transformation was successful?Paul:First of all, it's important that we judge success by the way companies measure their success. When we work with different companies, we try and understand what are their outcomes of success and their success can be ... The first thing you think, how much revenue did you grow? But some might not be. If it's a new brand and they want to get out there and they're trying to change their positioning, their goal might be a number of stories that got out, building brand awareness, changing the perspective, and so we always start with making sure that we understand what are their key outcomes and then provide some guidance on how do you get to those key goals.Paul:Looking at from a digital perspective, kind of like as I was saying before, it's also important to have an understanding of the voice of the customer and the sentiment. It's one thing to say what people might ... When you interview them. It's almost more important to see what they actually do, right? And using different tracking NPS scores, using different ... Looking at the data of actual purchase stories and mapping it onto example profiles. That then provides much more of a richer ... Even from compared to people say what they do is different than what they actually do and looking for actual intent in what they've done, and so making sure we're getting the right data is really important as well.Stephanie:Even if they have a lot of different outcomes, it seems like the solutions that you could bring to them could be kind of similar though. From what I've heard, there's a lot of decentralized processes going on, so you need to figure out a way to pull them all in and reduce your crazy marketing tech stack. Have you seen that on your side too that people might have very different outcomes but right now a lot of people have similar solutions or the solutions that you're presenting to them are kind of the same things?Paul:Yeah, in many ways some of our ... What we do to help customers in some ways is to help ... There's probably so many voices in the room and so many stakeholders is how do we help them bring them together and help to prioritize and to facilitate that conversation? Because that's the real hard part when you're dealing ... If you just have your own one product and your own single [sheet] you can make a decision and go.Paul:When you have hundreds of product lines and executives around the world and how do you facilitate the discussion, that's really what we help to do. Be it similar strategy to other companies or not, you need to help bring the internal alignment, and that's sometimes the hardest part because once you get to execute, many companies can do that. The harder part is how do you get agreement and prioritization with the different stakeholders.Stephanie:What kind of advice do you give for anyone who's struggling with that right now? What do you guys do to gain that alignment and have a go forward plan?Paul:Number one thing is start small and try something. You could spend forever talking about it and don't be afraid to fail. Get something in the market. We try and do agile sprints, and so from a development perspective we've been doing agile for a long time but we're also pushing into doing agile marketing so that we get into the same kind of feeding into that, so that okay, let's get something out there, let's try it, learn, and then from there go through the experiment, prove it, or make the changes and then scale, and keep that on an ongoing basis and trying to institutionalize that that it's an ongoing, you need to keep ...Paul:That's the business and how do you keep rolling that, because before when ecommerce was quote unquote more of a side business, it was more of a set it and forget it. Well, let's set it up. We'll set up the implementation, then we'll look at it, we'll make some changes every once in a while where now your core commerce business is your lifeline and some businesses it's over getting to 50, 60% of your overall business. You need to continue to change the priorities and especially as all of the changes that have come down the line from Facebook, from Google, is changing your whole marketing strategies.Stephanie:What about from a B2B perspective? I know earlier you said, okay, we got these two different viewpoints. What do you see in the B2B world? Which sometimes gets forgotten. We don't have many B2B people on the podcast very often and it'd be interesting to hear what does that side of the world look like.Paul:I've been focused more on that in the last year or two because it's such a big growing area. Just to lay the land, to understand how big B2B is, from a B2B perspective, just in the U.S. there's $17 trillion dollars of B2B payments done.Stephanie:Wow.Paul:That's just in the U.S. Right now-Stephanie:That's massive.Paul:It's completely massive and half of that is done manually. Meaning, if somebody writes a check, they send the check off, it's wired. It's not done digitally, and so when we talk about B2B commerce, again, people right away think B2C, it's just about the order, but actually when we talk about ... Or, the other myth or misconception that frustrates B2B people is, well, if just make it a cooler screen and easier to use on the web, then you'll be better, right? Then those are the myths and putting lipstick on problems.Paul:if you actually look into what the B2B challenges are, number one, many B2B purchases are very complex and there's many personas. It's not like, hey, I like this shirt, got it, they converted well, I've optimized, I buy it. Some of these deals are million dollars, half a million, and you need to go to procurement, you've got the business, you've got the people using it. It has to go through an RFP process, you have to buy versus ... Right? It's so much more complex on the number of personas, that's an important thing. There's no quick, easy, CX solution. Not to say that CX isn't important, but it's not like B2B. The first thing, if you start from that premise, that helps.Paul:Then the bigger pieces is traditionally how B2B sold was handshake over lunch, right? Traditionally, middle age guys shaking hands and "Hey, let's do this deal. There we go," and the last thing I want to do is look at the damn website, right? Well, obviously we know that's all changing and last year was the big thing in the workforce, millennials are now the largest part of the workforce. Guess what? Many of those, it's not all men. They're retiring at a very fast rate. Your expectation of your sales people are hey, where are my digital tools? When you talk about B2B commerce, it's about what are all the digital ways to interact, to be easier to do business with as you sell?Paul:In fact, what ends up happening is the top three things that people like for B2B commerce is order status, product information, and just doing a quick re-order. When you look at that, it's more about, hey, how do I make my life easier interacting with my customers? That's just important to understand the difference between B2C and traditionally on B2B side.Stephanie:What kind of opportunities do you see in the B2B world then? Do you see any new innovations coming about? Obviously having a platform that can meet the needs of the customers and to me it seems like it has to be personalized depending on what the business is and how your customers order, but what do you see right now that could be coming in the next couple years to help B2B?Paul:Well, kind of seeing where B2B is in their lifecycle, and so in many retailers, they're now onto their third iteration of a platform from B2C, and for most B2B, they're on maybe their first or they haven't really, right? Many of the B2B clients we're dealing with, oh, we put something up in 2004 and we've just been living with it and we still have to use IE to access it, and so we're dealing with web 1.0. They can't get it on their phone, and so a lot of it is just we need to make it easier for them and looking for ways to make the sales person's life easier.Paul:In the analogy of how B2C commerce is trying to be omnichannel, on the B2B side, it's helping your sales person and CRM. The lines between CRM and B2B commerce have blended together and it's really a tool to help the next generation business person to, hey, all my follow-ups, my data, you might get leads. Did you know your customers are looking at your products? You'll get that lead information, and so that you can follow-up with them or hey, have you deferred ... How many times has the business guy gotten a call? Hey, where's my order? I haven't got it.Paul:They end up spending half their time, and so the other big learning that we've got because it involves sales people so much is that you have to include them early and often during the process. For example, we had this happen one time. We had a customer come to us and say, "Man, we just spent all this money on this great new ecommerce platform for B2B, and we're just not getting the adoption." A couple lessons learned and they asked us to come in and do an assessment. We went in, we started talking to the customers and the customer said ... We ended up hearing this three different ways.Paul:The customer is like, "Oh, man. I love Joe. He's my best salesman, but he told me that if I put my sale through the B2B commerce, he's not going to get a bonus so I just called him to make sure he got his bonus." It's like, oh my god, of course you need to get the sales persons incentives align such that they don't get penalized for using the website, and that was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.Paul:Also, you want the sales people to be ... You want them to evangelize and get them to embrace leveraging it. That's such a key ... That change management in B2B and getting your sales people involved is super key for success.Stephanie:Yeah, which seems like it's a big training aspect to it too, make sure that they fully understand it to where then they can essentially sell the customers on using it and can act as customer service as well, because I'm sure their customers can be like, "I don't know how to order it on here," and if the sales person is like, "I don't know either," that's a big red flag. Are there any other hiccups like that that you've seen either in B2B or B2C where companies are like, oh, this isn't working. This new platform that we're using isn't working and you're like, well, let's talk a little bit about how you guys even thought about implementing it and you left out a big piece like this. Any other stories around that?Paul:Yeah, and number one it's always about ... It's so important getting the voice of the customer and getting representative people early on to provide input and feedback, because what ends up happening is if you don't listen to ... And we've had examples of rolling out systems trying to solve for what we thought was the problem but it wasn't really the problem. The way you bundled orders or the way products were bundled and you prioritized that and you didn't get the adoption, when actually they're focused on another set of problems or departments. That whole piece about getting user input early and often is so critical. The number one thing as you roll that out, you need the voice of the customer.Stephanie:In times like this that are changing so quickly, how do you think about separating the signal from the noise? I can see just so many companies try to keep up with other smaller brands and there's so many new things to try right now. It seems like it's hard to know what's actually going to be a lasting trend where you actually should put that as part of your processes or your platform. There's just so many tools and plugins and things. How do you all think about separating the two and being like, this one's a longer term trend and this is just something short that we see dying off in a year or two?Paul:Yeah, a couple of things that we do and obviously there's things that you want to lay out and over long-term and shorter term, but number one, look for ways ... First of all, understand what your brand promise is. Depending on your brand promise, you might prioritize things different, right? If you're a luxury item versus if you're an item at the dollar store. You have different brand promises and you want to be consistent to your brand promise, and so that's the first thing.Paul:The second thing as far as in general on commerce is continuously look for friction points. Do your tests with your customers and see what are things that are causing them to stop. As you go through all the different steps of the purchasing journey, if you're seeing friction points, how can you reduce that friction? Meaning, hey, this page seems really slow. I don't know why. Let's reduce that. Hey, this content is not connecting well. How can we use other ... For example, and I mentioned it before, hey, getting authentic content of the real users' pictures. That will help people convert higher.Paul:It's an ongoing iterative, so I think what you have is this ... And you're always plotting this, like how can you reduce friction and bang for the buck in a short-term that you can do versus a longer term investment that might then pay back, because it's easy to be like, okay great, we need a 3D VR AR strategy. We're like, well, how is that going to help your $10 item? Obviously that's an extreme example, but if you have a brand promise and you look for ways to reduce the friction to make your life easier, and similarly on the B2B side, that's why I always stress when I define B2B commerce, I like to say it's not about the purchase. It's about making your business easier to do business with, reduce the friction.Stephanie:I love that. What kind of longer term investments are you seeing being made right now that they might not see a payoff for a couple years? Because I know that Deloitte and I think Salesforce partnered on coming up with scenarios for the next three to five years, and so it'd be interesting to hear what you're seeing being implemented based on maybe the scenarios that these companies so all you get is put out there, which ranged to me from happy to very sad scenarios. I'm like, I guess it just depends how you're feeling that day which one you go with. I went with the happy ones.Paul:Especially for companies such as CPG that aren't used to having direct relationship with their customer, for example, big investments that take a while to really understand is the data, right? Getting real data direct from your customers that you then can build on. Those are things that it's not like, okay, a couple weeks, a couple months and you got it. It's something that over time you build up and you start to learn from, and so that's probably one of the biggest areas of especially getting your first party data, and especially since as you might have heard here recently, Facebook is reducing some of the data that they're sharing and how you're able to market and so is Google. Building up your first party data as a brand or building up your email list is so critical, and the benefits that you'll build definitely increase over time.Stephanie:It seems like it's an easy thing to say, yeah, obviously build up on that one-on-one connection with your customers, build up your email list, but it also seems like it's going to be very competitive because every brand is trying to do that now. It seems like every commerce company is turning to a media company that are all trying to have their blogs and newsletters and be on Tik Tok and Clubhouse and everywhere. How do you think brands can compete and build up content that actually pulls people into their community so they can have access to that first party data?Paul:Yeah, so I think the tactics on some of those platforms on core data and getting some of that primary, that's onto ... I think once you get into content and being outward brand, outward bound, I think the focus is and kind of the things that we've talked to our clients about is try and be good on one platform first. It's easy to be like, oh my god, we're so behind. We got to have a Tik Tok. We got to have Facebook, we have to have all the platforms all at once. We kind of guide them on, okay, start with one that's as close to your authentic brand as you can find, and then try and build it and iterate on it and master one before you really try and go after another because, again, there's limited resources and limited people. Trying to spread across all is a lot worse than trying to be good at least on one.Stephanie:Where do you normally find yourself suggesting brands start out at? It seems like Instagram is always a good bet for any company that has product pictures and things like that, but is that usually where you send them to or is it always very varied?Paul:Yeah, it just depends on where they're at. Some brands have ... Again, some of this stuff isn't cool, but SEO and email marketing have some of the best returns and they're super still unbelievably effective. Focusing on those and making sure those are solid, you get some of the best brand for the buck ... You get your bang for the buck. Sorry. Because it's easy to go the shiny happy route, but the core of understanding kind of the SEO and how it's connecting on all your different content and how you're coming up in search results all across and mobile related, that's still ... And again, email marketing on ecommerce, we did a study here recently and saw that some of the most successful brands are their leads are coming from up to 40 to 50% of their net new sales are coming from email related.Paul:We make sure that you have your core fundamentals ready before ... And you might do this like a portfolio, right? Like hey, maybe you're dipping your toe into ... Get a few Tik Tok videos out there and explore with a couple people, and know that you're not going hard on that but making sure that you get your fundamentals down first.Stephanie:Yeah, that's such a good reminder I think just for business in general but to stay focused and make sure that you're not getting caught up in the craziness and everything new. Make sure you have your email list good and that you actually own that and you're sending out good stuff. I don't know if this question could get you in trouble, but I'm going to ask it anyways. What is something you believe around ecommerce that many don't agree with you on?Paul:Huh. I'll have to think about that one. It's kind of funny in some ways because I've come through the whole ... I'm the old guy in ecommerce, and so I've been the one being like, ecommerce is going to be bigger than it is. I feel like in the last six months that now I'm the hey guys, retail is not going away. Retail has been here for hundreds of thousands of years. It's not going away. There's a lot of proponents out there, I won't name any names, but ecommerce is everything, and I'm the ecommerce guy and I'm like, no it's not. Understand it's too easy to say things are black or white for clicks, as opposed to understanding the nuance.Paul:If you look at in China, they just met a massive milestone. They're now over 50% of retail is via ecommerce. If you look at the states, relatively speaking, depending on which calculation you're looking at is anywhere from 17% or 22%, let's say it's somewhere in between that. Less than half of the penetration in China, and so I don't think over the long-term retail won't be 100% ecommerce, right?Paul:Over time, it might get in the U.S., because of the way we're distributed and the ease of buying at retail, you might get up to 50, 60% in the next 10 years but you're never going to get to a hundred and ecommerce is not everything and more the conversation should be retail has just many forms. I'm now pivoted to make sure that we don't forget the importance of these great real life experiences and then how you can balance and leverage commerce online.Stephanie:That's great that you've had to flip now to defend the other side. I'm assuming you think that retail is going to be changing though in some way or shape or form.Paul:Of course.Stephanie:How do you see that playing out?Paul:I talked about the grocery and that's a great example. They are now changing the way they see their line ... Because one of the biggest growth areas in this past year has been about BOPIS, buy online, pick-up in store. You probably saw, like you might have gone to a store and there's all these pickers. If you go, like half of the people in the store were employees picking for pick-ups. Just recently Walmart announced how they're going to re-jigger and automate so that parts of their stores are add-ons will be automated specifically targeted towards BOPIS.Stephanie:Wow, interesting.Paul:They're looking at maybe rolling that out over the next year or two over 200 stores. It's pretty significant. Then if you look at Kroger, they bought Ocado which is one of the largest robot ... Being able to bring together delivery in stage and they're looking for closer to the store to provide support for BOPIS as well. What you're going to see is this the way real estate is leveraged very differently than the big huge aisles with the big cart. It may be optimized slightly differently.Stephanie:Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about optimizing retail locations, and when I think about having someone go and buy my groceries, all the dry goods just get what I need, but when it comes to my fruits and veggies and things like that, I still think people sometimes they have a certain kind of avocado they want, they have a certain color banana they want. It seems like there's a way to segment the store and the stuff can just be picked out for you because you know what you want, and then there's another part of the store that you can still go in and interact with and grab the things that you want because there's actually preferences around them. I don't know what that looks like but it seems like an interesting thing to think about.Paul:Exactly. It's just going to change.Stephanie:Yep. Just a minute before we hop into the lightening round, I did have a question around Internet or ecommerce penetration. You were mentioning that and it does seem like there's a lot of opportunities all around the globe because certain areas have very lower ecommerce penetration because of a lot of reasons. Are there any regions that you're betting on right now or that Deloitte's looking into of there's some opportunities coming up here once X, Y, and Z is solved?Paul:Yeah, the area that has the biggest potential for growth right now that is behind ... If you look at just relatively speaking, to give everybody a perspective, from an ecommerce adoption, China is number one, Europe and the UK are generally a little bit ahead, and a lot of that has to do with they're smaller and it's easier from some of the delivery. The biggest growth area that we see right now in the next short-term is around Latin America.Stephanie:I was just going to say Latin America. I've heard a lot of VCs that you probably follow mentioned how they're going to be up and coming with them.Paul:Mercado Libre based out of Brazil is one of the fastest growing and there's also another shop app that's just skyrocketed out of Brazil, and so they see Latin America, because again they've been behind on the retail penetration and they've been behind, but this whole COVID just pushed that all along. I think that's the next big massive growth compared to everywhere else.Stephanie:I was just looking at them yesterday so it's funny you mentioned that. All right, well let's move over to the lightening round. The lightening round is brought you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is our awesome sponsor. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Paul? All right. First one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Paul:It might actually be how this shipper container problem right now, all the ports are behind and not clear when some of the massive packaging and shipping issues around the world get sorted out. That might be the determinant, because if you can't get the products around the world, you might not be able to deliver what you want.Stephanie:That's a good one. Do you see any resolution with that? I don't understand what the problems are there. I've not looked into the shipping container world, so what's happening there and what could solve that?Paul:It's kind of a combo of stuff, and this has happened in a number of industries. It's kind of fascinating because it also kind of effected the way we planned. When you went back to a year ago into the spring and when you went back to all the historical of what happened when you had a large change and potential recession and what the impact was, you went back to, well, the shipping container industry went back and said, well, all our historical ... We got to pull back. They pulled back. What ends up happening, because of the ecommerce shift and spike, their demand very quickly ... They pulled back and it's hard to then build it back up when you're dealing with massive ships and containers around the world.Paul:By late summer, they realized oh crap, we're way behind and we need to catch up. That was part of it. Then you have a bunch of issues of hey, people on the essential front lines are just getting COVID and they can't deliver it, right? You have a combination of conservative planning, COVID actually effecting people, to geopolitical problems of hey, we don't want to receive packages and you're looking at different areas in the world that actually impact that. That's just another part of it that contributed to it. There was an article in Detail just this past weekend in New York Times that went into a little bit more detail.Stephanie:That's an interesting one and that's a lot at play. That'd be a good field or area to watch. Next question. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Paul:Oh, man. I've actually been kicking around potentially doing ... This might be a little bit of what are the slow ways to be successful at ecommerce, right? Because it's funny because I've been on Clubhouse now for six months and you've got all of these entrepeneurs that hey, make seven figures, eight figures in a month or two, but the thing ... ecommerce seems overly easy to get into, but to scale and be successful is very hard because there's so many factors that play a part of it that you don't have full control of it. If I had a podcast that I would do, I would say the slow way to success to ecommerce.Stephanie:I like that. I've seen a lot of those people on Clubhouse, their bios of I'll scale you to a million. I'm like, nah.Paul:Yeah, right away it's like, next.Stephanie:Yeah, I just don't trust it, not for a second. What's up next on your reading list specifically around ecommerce trends? What are you reading every day to stay on top of the latest?Paul:It's something that I probably spend a couple hours a day reading lots of stuff. I actually use Feedly, I have all these keywords that kind of feed in, and I follow a lot of ... There's a lot of great podcasts out here. Of course, I got to plug my friend, even though he works at a competing company, he used to work for me, Jason Goldberg. The Jason and Scott Show is probably the best ecommerce podcast out there.Stephanie:Yep, I like theirs too.Paul:He's also a personal friend. I've known him for a long time. There's a whole crew of people out there that are passionate about it, and so I'm kind of geeky about it. It's funny, Jason as the retail geek but in some ways I'm more the ecommerce geek.Stephanie:Yep, I like it. That is a good one to stay on top of. I like that. Then the last one, what one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Paul:Oh, man. I've come more from ... I'm more on the strategy and the technical side and the implementation. While I understand the marketing side okay, I really don't have the in-depth digital marketing side of it and I'd love to be able to spend more time and really focus around that area of how to really effectively connect. That's almost like another side of the brain that I have not spent the time on there.Stephanie:Yep. That's a good one. All right. Well, Paul, thanks so much for coming on the show and giving us a glimpse into what you're working on at Deloitte Digital. Where can people find out more about you or where can they follow you at?Paul:The easiest ... I'm quite active on Twitter, on deFornoP, you can follow me, and I try and share a couple articles a day of ... I curate good stories on both B2C and B2B commerce and people can also reach out to me at Deloittedigital.com or on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much, Paul.Paul:Awesome. Thank you.

Paul: A Picture of Solid Spiritual Leadership (Romans 1:8-15) Outline: I. The Thankful Spirit of Paul II. The Concerned Spirit of Paul III. The Willing and Submissive Spirit of Paul IV. The Humble & Loving Spirit of Paul V. The Fruitful Spirit of Paul For more information, go to: http://www.belmorbaptist.org https://www.facebook.com/Belmor-Baptist-Church-192899944067845/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKnBfnSnJwUCj81k_uyhhVA #Sermon #BelmorBaptistChurch #BookofRomans

Connect with Praemo on the Azure Marketplace: https://bit.ly/2VqJg91 Paul Boris is the Executive Vice President and Chief Revenue Officer of Praemo, a company that fills the critical gap in industrial productivity by leveraging analytics to transform under-utilized data into operation-critical insights. As part of this discussion, we shared how their partnership with Microsoft, their use of Azure, and the Azure Marketplace have empowered them to scale and grow their business. Connect with Paul: Web: https://praemo.com/ Twitter: @PraemoAI @PaulBorisPraemo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/praemo/ Microsoft partnership opportunities for manufacturing partners: mfgmarketplace@microsoft.com Contact Avrohom: Web: https://asktheceo.biz Facebook: AvrohomGottheil Twitter: @avrohomg Instagram: @avrohomg INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS: [00:48] IoT deployments have gone up, year over year, with a projected number of 20.4 billion devices installed by the end of this year. While many device manufacturers like to paint a picture of customers using only their products in the customer’s environment, the reality is that many manufacturing facilities have all kinds of IoT devices installed in there. As we know, one of the benefits of having an Industrial IoT solution is the ability to obtain actionable analytics from your devices. That is hard enough to attain on a single manufacturer’s platform, let alone a hodgepodge of hundreds of thousands of disparate devices across an industrial manufacturing facility. What are the challenges industrial operations run into when trying to convert IoT-collected data into useful insights? [01:48] Everyone is in a rush to drive more data and IoT devices into the operation. [01:59] The biggest challenge is that people don’t think they have data at all. The data they have is incomplete. [02:35] Another challenge in manufacturing is securely transferring data from IoT devices. With the prevalence of the cloud, this is no longer a major issue. [03:05] Businesses spend too much time normalizing the data versus getting things done. Then, when something changes, they have to start all over again. [04:24] Getting things done is better than trying to get things done perfectly. [05:23] What can manufacturing facilities do to overcome the challenge of generating useful insights from their IoT data? [05:50] Start with what you have and work your way up from there. [06:17] Don’t lose “good” on behalf of pursuing great. [06:29] Begin by creating some insights. Those insights will guide you to what the next best action is, and how you may drive your process forward. [08:50] Praemo recently launched a new offering on the Microsoft Azure marketplace, called Razor. Tell us about it and how it addresses some of the challenges we just discussed. [08:50] How manufacturing facilities can leverage AI and Machine Learning to optimize their operations. [11:48] Paul shares an analogy for the right way to leverage analytics from an airline’s in-flight emergency. [14:12] How would a manufacturing facility use your solution with Azure? [15:13] How can customers find out more about Razor, and procure it through the Azure Marketplace? [16:03] How has partnering with Microsoft helped Praemo scale and grow your business? Paul: Microsoft really understands how to work with small companies. [17:23] How can people find out more about Microsoft partnership opportunities for manufacturing partners? Paul: For more information, you can send an email to mfgmarketplace@microsoft.com and get started with the Microsoft Manufacturing group and Marketplace Rewards. [17:52] How do people connect with you? Paul: You can visit our website at https://praemo.com/. You can also follow us on Twitter at @PraemoAI or look us up on LinkedIn. My personal Twitter account is: @PaulBorisPraemo. [18:17] Do you have any parting words of wisdom that you’d like to share with the audience? #AskTheCEO with Paul Boris

This message was presented using Zoom Teleconferencing as the 3rd of our "Worship from a Distance" during the COVID-19 Pandemic. Last week, we began focusing on the next section of Paul's 2nd letter to the Corinthians. Throughout the letter, Paul has built his exhortations and encouragements around the central theme of believers living their lives within an atmosphere of afflictions. He began his letter discussing the purpose of afflictions and then sharing from his own life. He then provided encouragement, by reminding the believers of their new standing in Christ and how they are being continually changed from glory to glory. God, as the Master Sculptor, is chiseling away on us - His new creations! He who began the good work in us IS CONTINUING to perform it ... UNTIL the day of Christ! He is molding us and conforming us to the image of His blessed Son - according to His promise and plan! As that work is being accomplished, there will be opposition in the spiritual realm. As we considered the "Weapons of our Warfare" last week, we saw that, again, that God's primary desire is for ALL people to come to the knowledge of the truth. Hence, He has given us this word of truth in the Scriptures, has given a charge to the church to be the pillar and foundation of that truth, and has challenged believers to see it as the first element of the armor which He has given to us to use in the spiritual war. There has been opposition to the truth of the Word of God from the beginning. Just as Eve was deceived by the serpent, so also do many individuals fall to the wiles of the devil as he attacks the validity and sufficiency of the Word of God. His goal is to get us to detract from ... or add to ... God's Word, in order that we might not live in obedience to it. Today, we begin considering how we are to utilize the "Weapons of our Warfare" ... for they ARE to be used! Today, we want to examine the first of the four areas listed by Paul - "For pulling down strongholds." This message was presented on April 5, 2020 by Bob Corbin.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England speaking with Katia from Mexico. First question is do you give money to charity?Katia: Well, Paul, it's a difficult question because you really want to help people, but I always question myself where if the money really gets to where it's supposed to go, so personally I rarely do give money to charities. I'd rather give my time, so I know if it's actually something happening. What about you?Paul: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If it's a registered charity then I don't see there's a problem really with giving a donation.Katia: Yeah, I guess so, but really I wonder. There are so many charities in the world, and you wonder really how much money do the people actually get, so it's difficult to really know.Paul: How about if you're walking down the street and you see a homeless person asking for money?Katia: Homeless people! That's also difficult because you can see they need money or they need food. Sometimes I feel if you give money, you are supporting their way of life so I would rather give some food so they can eat, but maybe if it's a disabled person, I am more willing to give, rather than just the homeless.Paul: Yeah, I'd agree with you. It's difficult to know what they're gonna use the money for, so usually I never give money to men but if it's like an elderly woman, I'm happy to give a small donation.Katia: Why not men and only women?Paul: Well, going back to what you said about supporting their way of life, I mean, not in every case, but I think that often it can just be man's choice to be homeless on the street and he does have a chance to get a job I think.Katia: So you think the woman really doesn't have a choice, and the man...Paul: I think it's more difficult for a woman.Katia: Possibly. Possibly. That's a difficult question.Paul: For sure. Do you give money if you see children on the street?Katia: Well, it depends, because that's also giving money to children so they can continue asking for money, so I avoid it. I also avoid it. What about you?Paul: I'm a little bit reluctant to give money. I heard in a lot of poor countries that it can actually even be a business, like parents will send their children onto the street.Katia: Unfortunately, that's true.Paul: OK, so maybe you like what you said before: it's better to donate your time than to donate money.Katia: Possibly. And hopefully things will change.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England speaking with Katia from Mexico. First question is do you give money to charity?Katia: Well, Paul, it's a difficult question because you really want to help people, but I always question myself where if the money really gets to where it's supposed to go, so personally I rarely do give money to charities. I'd rather give my time, so I know if it's actually something happening. What about you?Paul: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If it's a registered charity then I don't see there's a problem really with giving a donation.Katia: Yeah, I guess so, but really I wonder. There are so many charities in the world, and you wonder really how much money do the people actually get, so it's difficult to really know.Paul: How about if you're walking down the street and you see a homeless person asking for money?Katia: Homeless people! That's also difficult because you can see they need money or they need food. Sometimes I feel if you give money, you are supporting their way of life so I would rather give some food so they can eat, but maybe if it's a disabled person, I am more willing to give, rather than just the homeless.Paul: Yeah, I'd agree with you. It's difficult to know what they're gonna use the money for, so usually I never give money to men but if it's like an elderly woman, I'm happy to give a small donation.Katia: Why not men and only women?Paul: Well, going back to what you said about supporting their way of life, I mean, not in every case, but I think that often it can just be man's choice to be homeless on the street and he does have a chance to get a job I think.Katia: So you think the woman really doesn't have a choice, and the man...Paul: I think it's more difficult for a woman.Katia: Possibly. Possibly. That's a difficult question.Paul: For sure. Do you give money if you see children on the street?Katia: Well, it depends, because that's also giving money to children so they can continue asking for money, so I avoid it. I also avoid it. What about you?Paul: I'm a little bit reluctant to give money. I heard in a lot of poor countries that it can actually even be a business, like parents will send their children onto the street.Katia: Unfortunately, that's true.Paul: OK, so maybe you like what you said before: it's better to donate your time than to donate money.Katia: Possibly. And hopefully things will change.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England and I'm here with Katia from Mexico. Today we're gonna speak about being a woman. I can't imagine what it's like to be a woman. It must be really difficult.Katia: Well, I wouldn't say difficult, difficult. I think it's great, but it comes with some difficult things I guess. Maybe I can think of make-up and it takes us so long to get ready and it's something that we really need to do, so maybe that's one thing that we have to get used to it.Paul: Come on. It can't be so difficult: make-up. Putting on make-up on every day.Katia: Well, you get used to it, but just imagine, we need to look for the right colors, the right brand, the right price. It really gets tough.Paul: Sounds tough. Anything else difficult about being a woman?Katia: Well, some people say that it might not be so difficult but maybe giving birth might be something that woman have to face that is difficult, but perhaps for some women it's not so difficult but I think that's one other thing.Paul: Yeah, for sure. I'll never know about that. How about good things, positive things about being a woman?Katia: Well, there are many positive things. I actually can say I'm happy being a woman. Maybe one thing is, well we have in a sense... we're able to choose if we... once we marry, if we go to work or not, in general. I think that's one good thing. Don't you agree?Paul: Yeah, I would agree with that. For sure. Anything else that's positive for you?Katia: Well, since I'm not married yet, going on dates I think it's great the man has to pay. So that's a positive thing of being a woman.Paul: Great. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. OK, and finally is there one last thing. What's your favorite thing about being a woman?Katia: My favorite thing? Maybe having a sixth sense.Paul: Could you tell me more?Katia: Well, as a woman we sense certain things that men are not able to sense, so I think that's a very positive thing.Paul: For example?Katia: Well, for example, Paul, as a woman we sense people's feelings even though, for example, a man will not say anything. We can see, or we can feel what the person is feeling. The same with children, or the same with other women.Paul: I would agree with that. Women have to be more sensitive to these issues I think.Katia: Yeah, sensitive. You can call it sensitive. I call it a sixth sense.Paul: OK, it was nice talking to you.Katia: Thank you, Paul.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England and I'm here with Katia from Mexico. Today we're gonna speak about being a woman. I can't imagine what it's like to be a woman. It must be really difficult.Katia: Well, I wouldn't say difficult, difficult. I think it's great, but it comes with some difficult things I guess. Maybe I can think of make-up and it takes us so long to get ready and it's something that we really need to do, so maybe that's one thing that we have to get used to it.Paul: Come on. It can't be so difficult: make-up. Putting on make-up on every day.Katia: Well, you get used to it, but just imagine, we need to look for the right colors, the right brand, the right price. It really gets tough.Paul: Sounds tough. Anything else difficult about being a woman?Katia: Well, some people say that it might not be so difficult but maybe giving birth might be something that woman have to face that is difficult, but perhaps for some women it's not so difficult but I think that's one other thing.Paul: Yeah, for sure. I'll never know about that. How about good things, positive things about being a woman?Katia: Well, there are many positive things. I actually can say I'm happy being a woman. Maybe one thing is, well we have in a sense... we're able to choose if we... once we marry, if we go to work or not, in general. I think that's one good thing. Don't you agree?Paul: Yeah, I would agree with that. For sure. Anything else that's positive for you?Katia: Well, since I'm not married yet, going on dates I think it's great the man has to pay. So that's a positive thing of being a woman.Paul: Great. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. OK, and finally is there one last thing. What's your favorite thing about being a woman?Katia: My favorite thing? Maybe having a sixth sense.Paul: Could you tell me more?Katia: Well, as a woman we sense certain things that men are not able to sense, so I think that's a very positive thing.Paul: For example?Katia: Well, for example, Paul, as a woman we sense people's feelings even though, for example, a man will not say anything. We can see, or we can feel what the person is feeling. The same with children, or the same with other women.Paul: I would agree with that. Women have to be more sensitive to these issues I think.Katia: Yeah, sensitive. You can call it sensitive. I call it a sixth sense.Paul: OK, it was nice talking to you.Katia: Thank you, Paul.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Katia: Hello, everyone, this is Katia from Mexico and we are here with Paul from England, and today we're gonna have a very interesting conversation about men. What's difficult about being a man and what are the good things about being a man, so we have the right candidate for this. Paul, what are the bad things about being a man?Paul: What's difficult about being a man? Well, I think... the hardest thing I think is working. The man is under a lot of pressure to go to work and to earn money for the family.Katia: But I thought men like to work.Paul: Yeah, men do like to work of course. Like most men want to have a career but along with the work, there's a lot of pressure. They have pressure from their wife, from their kids, from their family, from the bank manager.Katia: Yeah, I guess so. That can be stressful. What else? What else are one of the bad thing of being a man?Paul: Well, I guess, if a man's... has a good job or a job that's taking up a lot of his time, this can sometimes lead to problems with his relationship, especially with his his kids, I think. For example, if the kids are spending a lot of time with their mother, usually they form a closer relationship with their mom, so the father, I think, misses out on his kids growing up sometimes.Katia: Yeah, that is true and now I can that clearly unfortunately it seems that it's a lot of bad things with the job, but I am sure they're very good things about being a man.Paul: For sure, there are a lot of advantages I think. For example, appearance. I think, for a man, he doesn't really... when he's not working, he doesn't really need to worry about his appearance. He can wear whatever clothes he wants to wear. He doesn't brush is hair or he can wear scruffy shoes for example.Katia: Mmm, are you sure about that one?Paul: Would you disagree? Yeah, I think usually that appearance is not so important for a man.Katia: Possibly.I guess women spend more time in appearances but there must be more things than this about good things about being a man.Paul: Good things? I think men usually can have more fun than women. Like in their free time, they get to play sport and do a lot more fun things I think than women.Katia: Well, Paul, I'm gonna have to disagree with that one, but tell me why. Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Maybe I'm just thinking from a man's point of view, but to me shopping sounds very boring.Katia: OK, well, I do agree with that one, but still you haven't answered my question.Paul: What was your question again?Katia: Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Just I think that men have a lot more freedom to do fun things and travel. For example, safety and traveling alone. A man can just go traveling by himself, where a woman, she has to think, where am I going, is it safe. For example, this kind of think.Katia: OK. I can understand a little bit. You were getting a little bit nervous, Paul.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Katia: Hello, everyone, this is Katia from Mexico and we are here with Paul from England, and today we're gonna have a very interesting conversation about men. What's difficult about being a man and what are the good things about being a man, so we have the right candidate for this. Paul, what are the bad things about being a man?Paul: What's difficult about being a man? Well, I think... the hardest thing I think is working. The man is under a lot of pressure to go to work and to earn money for the family.Katia: But I thought men like to work.Paul: Yeah, men do like to work of course. Like most men want to have a career but along with the work, there's a lot of pressure. They have pressure from their wife, from their kids, from their family, from the bank manager.Katia: Yeah, I guess so. That can be stressful. What else? What else are one of the bad thing of being a man?Paul: Well, I guess, if a man's... has a good job or a job that's taking up a lot of his time, this can sometimes lead to problems with his relationship, especially with his his kids, I think. For example, if the kids are spending a lot of time with their mother, usually they form a closer relationship with their mom, so the father, I think, misses out on his kids growing up sometimes.Katia: Yeah, that is true and now I can that clearly unfortunately it seems that it's a lot of bad things with the job, but I am sure they're very good things about being a man.Paul: For sure, there are a lot of advantages I think. For example, appearance. I think, for a man, he doesn't really... when he's not working, he doesn't really need to worry about his appearance. He can wear whatever clothes he wants to wear. He doesn't brush is hair or he can wear scruffy shoes for example.Katia: Mmm, are you sure about that one?Paul: Would you disagree? Yeah, I think usually that appearance is not so important for a man.Katia: Possibly.I guess women spend more time in appearances but there must be more things than this about good things about being a man.Paul: Good things? I think men usually can have more fun than women. Like in their free time, they get to play sport and do a lot more fun things I think than women.Katia: Well, Paul, I'm gonna have to disagree with that one, but tell me why. Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Maybe I'm just thinking from a man's point of view, but to me shopping sounds very boring.Katia: OK, well, I do agree with that one, but still you haven't answered my question.Paul: What was your question again?Katia: Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Just I think that men have a lot more freedom to do fun things and travel. For example, safety and traveling alone. A man can just go traveling by himself, where a woman, she has to think, where am I going, is it safe. For example, this kind of think.Katia: OK. I can understand a little bit. You were getting a little bit nervous, Paul.

Paul Mattal is the Director of Network Systems at Akamai, one of the largest content delivery networks in the U.S. Akamai is a major part of the backbone of the internet and on today’s episode, Paul is going to talk about the massive amount of telemetry that comes into Akamai and the various decision support tools his group is in charge of providing to internal customers. On top of the analytics aspect of our chat, we also discussed how Paul is approaching his team’s work being relatively new at Akamai. Additionally, we covered: How does Paul access and use internal customer knowledge to improve the quality of applications they make? When to build a custom decision support tool vs. using a BI tool like Tableau? How does Akamai measure if their analytics are creating customer value? The process Paul uses with the customer to design a new data product MVP How Paul decides which of the many analytics applications and services “get love” when resources are constrained Paul’s closing advice about taking the time to design and plan before you code Resources and Links: Akamai Twitter @pjmattal Paul Mattal on LinkedIn Paul Mattal on Facebook Quotes from Today’s Episode “I would say we have a lot of engagement with [customers] here. People jump to answering questions with data and they’re quick. They know how to do that and they have very good ideas about how to make sure that the approaches they take are backed by data and backed by evidence.” — Paul Mattal “There’s actually a very mature culture here at Akamai of helping each other. Not necessarily taking on an enormous project if you don’t have the time for it, but opening your door and helping somebody solve a problem, if you have expertise that can help them.” — Paul Mattal “I’m always curious about feedback cycles because there’s a lot of places that they start with telemetry and data, then they put technology on top of it, they build a bunch of software, and look at releases and outputs as the final part. It’s actually not. It’s the outcomes that come from the stuff we built that matter. If you don’t know what outcomes those look like, then you don’t know if you actually created anything meaningful.” — Brian O’Neill “We’ve talked a little bit about the MVP approach, which is about doing that minimal amount of work, which may or may not be working code, but you did a minimum amount of stuff to figure out whether or not it’s meeting a need that your customer has. You’re going through some type of observation process to fuel the first thing, asset or output that you create. It’s fueled by some kind of observation or research upfront so that when you go up to bat and take a swing with something real, there’s a better chance of at least a base hit.” — Brian O’Neill “Pretend to be the new guy for as long as you can. Go ask [about their needs/challenges] again and get to really understand what that person [customer] is experiencing, because I know you’re going to able to meet the need much better.” — Paul Mattal Episode Transcript Brian: Hi. We’re back with Experiencing Data here and I have Paul Mattal on the line who is currently the Director of Network Systems at Akamai. How’s going, Paul? Paul: It’s going great. Thanks, Brian. Brian: I’m glad to have you on the show and you’re working at one of these companies that I think of as kind of like oxygen in the internet. It’s everywhere but you don’t really see it because it’s all invisible and that’s actually this big thing behind the scenes. You’re swimming around the internet as all these data and Akamai’s in the middle of all of a lot of that, largely responsible for making sure it’s moving quickly and is available at the right time and in the right places. As I understand it, you’re in a new position, you’ve changed domains, previously you were working in the space of legal patent work, digital forensics, and you built some tools that your previous company makes. You can tell us a little bit about those. Now, you’re moving more into the bits and bytes of the internet and you’re responsible for creating data products like decision support tools for people that keep the Akamai network going and running smoothly and anticipating demand? Did I get all that right? Paul: That’s exactly right. At Akamai, we like to think of it as we’re the ones that make the internet work. There’s a notion that the way things work on the internet is you just simply put your content up on a server and the rest is history. But these days, there’s a lot of complexity. There are many, many users who want access to the same content at the same time. Akamai makes that content all available to everyone when they need it and how they need it. In my past job, as you mentioned, was quite a bit different, although it had some similar qualities. I was helping to develop systems and tools for lawyers and for consultants for lawyers, in some cases to analyze patents, to help them better understand their subject matter of patents, so we’ve created some applications there. Here at Akamai, I’m also creating applications and tools to be used by the members of the network’s team who are responsible for deploying and maintaining the whole Akamai network. That breaks down roughly into tools that help us manage our work, tools that helps us with analytics and planning, and also tools that help us visualize data. It is somewhat of a shift. A lot of the domain knowledge is different, but it’s interesting that so many of the problems end up being similar. Brian: Tell us a bit about who the end-customer is. How many internal customers do you have? Do they break up into personas or segments? Like you have network administrators and you have whatever people. Tell us a bit about who those people are that you’re designing these tools for or you’re helping deploy these tools for. Paul: There are a couple of groups. The infrastructure group which is responsible for really deploying all of the servers and maintaining all of the servers. That’s a set of one class of user who is mostly using our tools in a logistical fashion to coordinate and organize their work. There’s a planning team who is thinking about the capacity of our network: Do we have enough for what’s coming down the pike? Do we have the right capacity in the right places? We also have users who are thinking about the architecture of the network and thinking about how we build and optimize our hardware and our network, to continue to be cutting edge and to continue to meet the needs of our customers. So, different people looking at different tools and different data for different purposes. Brian: Cool. Just a little fun question here. This is probably because I don’t know the domain very well. When there’s a big event coming on the internet, let’s take something like the Super Bowl, or the World Cup, or the new Game of Thrones, or whatever, are there literally changes that you guys go and make to facilitate a major event? Or are those actually more like a blip in terms of internet traffic and all of that? Paul: It depends. Certainly, some of those events have been some of the largest data traffic we’ve seen move across our network. Often, there are considerations especially depending on where exactly we expect the viewers to be for those events. We may deploy additional capacity in one geographic area or another. Brian: Going back to the people that are the end of these tools—again, these are decision support tools—how do you know if your team is doing a good job? How do you measure that the end-customers are getting the right information and they believe it, that they’re willing to take action on it? Do you a regular feedback cycle or interaction with these different personas that you talked about? Paul: Yes, That’s one of the most important aspects of what we do is trying to figure out how to measure, how exactly to measure how we’re doing, especially in the analytics space, right in the productivity tool space is a little simpler. We can tell pretty much where the pain points are. People come to us and say, “This interface isn’t working for me or these five things are in five different places,” and they’re going to use them as one. Those are a little bit more straightforward kinds of feedback. With analytics, we find it goes a lot to how successful were we predicting, how much excess capacity did we end up within a place we didn’t need it, for example, and all those kinds of questions. We meet with our customers pretty regularly and we also have some metrics that we compute to give us an idea of how we’re doing. Brian: Are those quantitative then? Those are all quantitative metrics or do you have any type of qualitative conversations that go deeper than like, “I wish there was a filter for the date on this chart,” or stuff like that. Those things do matter and it’s the sum of all those little, tiny details that add up into good experiences typically, but I’m curious if you have any deeper qualitative type of interaction with these end-users. Paul: A lot of what we’re discussing these days, for example, is there’s a tremendous amount of telemetry available that comes off the platform. Numbers about what’s going on in the network that could measure and we could capture. In many cases, a lot of the conversations are about, “Hey, can we capture more of this data? Is there’s somewhere we can get sample more frequently?” or, “Can we get access to this kind of data that we don’t have right now, so that we could be able to optimize more effectively on the things that actually matter, where the actual bottlenecks are in the network,” versus more simplified models based on less data. We’re finding that’s one of the very common kinds of feedback we’re getting is for more data and differently sampled data. Brian: We talked about this a little bit when we did our pre-call on whatever about topics and you mentioned that you have different classes of users in terms of who’s capable of designing an effective tool for themselves. I think you said you’ve got a mix of tools that are custom-built which might have two-way interaction, where data’s being put back in through forms or whatever in the tool. Then you have Tableau and some kind of rear-view mirror type historical reporting interfaces which, as I understand it, those start with the user a blank slate? Is that correct? Then they put together the views that they want and the reporting that they want? Kind of curious just for you to talk about how many people are using custom tools that you built versus the ones that they designed for themselves. Are people doing a good job creating the tools they need for themselves? Do you have a sense of that feedback that they’re looking at the right data, that they know how to interpret it, they know how to visualize it? Can you talk a little bit about that? Paul: Sure. Our organization has hundreds of people in it and I would say at least probably 50%–75% of those users are highly technical, which is very helpful, actually. They often come to us with a better idea of what they need. In some cases, we can give them good interfaces to go build their own tools. The historic approach to that here has been to give them pretty decent access to the data in our databases and even the engines themselves. Many of them are comfortable writing their own queries. But we also have a very mature ecosystem of query exchange. We have this tool that allows people to write their own queries and share them with others, and then others can manipulate those queries further and customize them to their own needs. They’re very familiar with that. The piece we’re bringing in next is this idea of really making visualization also of a self-serve kind of area where, with a tool like Tableau, you can point Tableau at the same data that might be the out part of these queries but then have powerful visualizations on top of that. The other piece of this is how much of it do we do and how much of it do customers create from old cloth. It’s kind of a balance. Some people come to us and say, “Here’s what I need but I don’t know how to do it,” and then they ask us to do it. Sometimes a customer actually originate it and will say, “Here’s the report or this query that I think is interesting,” and we’ll say, “Oh yeah, that’s interesting. Why don’t we bake that into something more sophisticated?” It’s kind of a mixed bag but I would say most people come in to us, there’s usually something that we already have that they can use as a basis and then they can usually modify that further. That’s been a pretty successful model for us because it really lets people get what they want, get the very detailed, precise view that meets their needs, but benefit from all of the other work that we’ve put into to making those views and those approaches effective and mature over many years. Brian: It sounds like you don’t struggle as much with engagement with the analytics. You actually have plenty of that? Or would you say that’s not necessarily entirely true? Paul: Yes. I would say we have a lot of engagement with that here. People jump to answering questions with data and they’re quick. They know how to do that and they have very good ideas about how to make sure that the approaches they take are backed by data and backed by evidence. Very mature in that sense people. Brian: Since you have this mix of these custom tools that you guys are building and how slick, how do you decide which wheel is going to get the most oil? You’ve got these custom tools, you’ve got some Tableau stuff, you’ve got people coming in, maybe they are using Tableau, but they don’t know how to build the reporting they need. Is it based on a business driver? If we get problem X wrong, this cost a lot of money, so we’re going to put our team on this problem and sorry, Jane, you’re going to have to take that Tableau tutorial and figure it out yourself. How do you resource like that? Paul: As with any place, there’s certainly scarcity. Everybody wishes they had choice in people they had and twice them. Maybe even the computing resources and everything else that they wished they had. At a high level, a lot of it is driven by a strategic plan, by an idea for what we as an organization are trying to accomplish. That determines which things get the most people and the most priority. There’s actually a very mature culture here at Akamai of helping each other. Not necessarily taking on an enormous project if you don’t have the time for it, but opening your door and helping somebody solve a problem if you have expertise that can help them. We find that it’s a balance of those things. We work on major roadmaps, large projects or tools for strategic and efficiency. Particularly efficiency reasons that we’re wishing to achieve as an organization. We spend a lot of us of the time helping the folks who need it, to get where they need to get. Brian: That makes sense to me. Is the feedback loop in place such that there’s some point in the future which you look backwards on these projects, or products, or tools that you’ve built and say, “Did we make a dent? What were the success criteria for those? What’s that three month or six month rear-view look like?” Do you guys talk about what that is, so you know whether or not you hit your objectives? “And since project X got four times the resourcing, did we get four times the value or whatever the value was that was determined?” I’m always curious about these feedback cycles because there’s a lot of places that they start with this telemetry and data, then they put technology on top of it, they build a bunch of software, and a lot of times the releases and the platforms are looked at as the outputs and the final part of this and it’s actually not. It’s the outcomes that come from the stuff we built that matter. If you don’t know what outcomes those look like, then you don’t know if you actually created anything meaningful. So, I’m curious, that feedback cycle, does your business know? Like, “We have to see. We can’t get predictions wrong or we don’t want to have a little more than 12% server waste from the wrong prediction, whatever.” I don’t know what those metrics are. Can you talk about that feedback loop from a business and a value perspective? Paul: Sure. Some of the things we’re doing are very tied to specific business goals for certain kinds of […]. These are targets for dollars saved in terms of operating the network at a lower cost. In those areas, we are very acutely being measured pretty much on a yearly basis along those lines. We’re working towards getting better at what happens in between and the rest of the year. You can often go off-track a little bit somewhere in one month and that can cost you down the road. We’ve been focused on trying to get to more of a monthly evaluation where we can break things down, try to deliver a value on a monthly basis, then get feedback from customers, and also to see how they’re affecting the numbers in real world application of this data to actually optimize. They never to learn. Are we consistently on track? Or are we moving in the right direction? I say that it’s definitely an element of what we do. Right now, we’re doing it more like every six months or a year. At a granular level, we’d like to move that to be a much shorter term and focus on constantly delivering smaller chunks of value. Brian: That’s good to hear. My understanding from when we talked to that you be almost what I would call a product manager, even though you’re not developing commercial products but you’re overseeing the creation of these different tools. I’m curious. Do you have the equivalent of a product manager role where one person’s job is to make sure that whatever analytics and/or custom tools you guys build for the network operations team or the team that deploys the servers, they live and breathe that world and they’re totally responsible to service those staff that work on those technical problems? Is that how it’s shaped or is everyone’s touching all of the different parts of Akamai? I’m just wondering how you get into that world. What’s it like to be the server administrator and predicting where to deploy servers? How is that structured? Maybe you don’t have enough staff to break it down that way and I’m asking a leading question, but I’m curious if you could talk about that a little bit. Paul: We actually do have four teams within our group and they are divided up with focus on the different stakeholder groups within the network’s organization. There is definitely some division. There’s also some who sort of cross responsibility but there are definitely folks who know specific subject matter areas very well and who are critical in those areas to anything more than the simple bug fix in an area is going to involve somebody managing that area. Now, for our largest projects of all, we do have product managers as well as project managers involved in the creation of the larger ones. I’d say about two or three are major systems and the other several hundred tools or various pieces that we manage, care and feeding over the years. That stuff is either being taken cared of by one of these SME areas or it’s sort of rolling out to me especially if it’s something new. A large part of my role is helping to at the outset to say, “Let’s define what this tool looks like. What it’s doing? Who is going to use it? What those people need? What are the processes at play here at Akamai that this is a part of? Do we understand those processes? Have we optimized those processes?” That’s a lot of what I end up doing with the rest of my team, to define those new products so that they’ll be the most successful as we build them and get off in the right direction. Brian: That sounds awfully like design to me. Paul: It is. Brian: Is that traditionally how things have been done in this group or is this something that’s new? How’s that being received? Are you getting like, “Just give us the data and we’ll put it together,” and you’re like, “No. Help me understand what are you going to do with it at the end.” It’s just like, “Well, I’ll know when I see it.” Is it that kind of thing or are they like, “Great, let’s get it right.” What’s that process like? Paul: The history of our group is that we have probably not put enough focus on planning and design, but I think it’s an area where people realize that we need to spend more. They really are now focused on that as a goal and understanding that it’s important in many context. That’s not to say that there aren’t sometimes when people will say, “Here’s what I need and I need it tomorrow,” and you know that comes up. It’s a balancing act that is always a challenge, but I think there is an increasing sense and increasing support across the network’s organization and maybe beyond that using some sort of platform organization, other parts of engineering at Akamai. It’s really a much better result if you make a plan upfront, you understand the context into which you’re creating this new thing, and you understand how it’s going to impact processes and flow that occur once you’ve built it. Brian: Maybe you haven’t been there because I know you’re somewhat new in this position but if you’ve been there long enough to go through a full cycle with that where you’ve taken someone through like, “Let’s hold on. Let’s figure out what’s actually needed. What the real problem’s face is like,” and then you’ve gone all the way through maybe building a product or a prototype or something. Have you gone through a full cycle yet? Or are you still in the design phase on some of these? Paul: For a couple of smaller projects, we’ve definitely done that. It’s been posted where people have come and said, “Hey, could you do X?” and we’ve said, “Well, we could do X but that actually requires more code and more effort. We have this other thing over here that actually can accomplish that and then it puts you more in the driver’s seat because you can help maintain it later. How’s that?” Often, the results are very positive. If we can actually get things implemented faster, people are happier in the end, it’s less maintenance for us overall in the long-haul. So, yes on the small things. On the bigger things, those are in progress and we’re excited about those design phases that’s going on now. They’re larger and more productive than they’ve been in the past. We’re excited to see probably by the middle of this year or later in the year that there is also an output of that. Brian: Can you tell us about what some of those activities are? I think some of the people listening to this are not coming from digital-native companies. The whole product design process is maybe foreign to them. Can you tell us about like, “What are you doing during this time? Why aren’t you writing code? You have the data. Put Tableau there and build some reports.” What are you doing that’s not that during this phase? Paul: Usually, the first thing we’re doing is trying to find out who are all the people that interact with this data, or these kinds of systems, or these particular business objects, or aspects of Akamai’s network. Often at the start, we find there’s common problems. There’s people and other parts of the organizations who may already have a tool that allows them to do this. Now we also want to go and observe those users. We want to go find out are they satisfied with the tool and is the tool meeting their needs, which are actually two different questions. Really seeing whether what they’re doing is a process that’s optimal and seeing whether we can create a solution to this new problem or borrow a solution to this new problem and change it in some way that helps everybody. That’s one of the interesting aspects of design here is that there are many groups that interact with the same data in so many different ways. I think a lot of that design phase is about, “Hey, one of the tools out there, how do we integrate them so that they’re the least work for us? How do we make sure that we’re choosing a good solution and we’re actually meeting the user’s needs?” Probably the last part of that, especially in our group is, and not getting stuck on not meeting 100% of any single tool, because in some cases, you’ll get 80% of the use cases for five groups and you have to say, “Okay, that’s fine. For this other case, they’ll do it this way.” That’s a lot what goes into the design process. Really just understanding what the users are looking for, how does that match up with stuff we already have, and then how do we integrate that use case into what we maintain, in a way that is streamlined and effective for them and also streamlined and effective for us. Brian: When you talk about getting to know what they’re going to do with this information and how they want to use it, is that through them self-reporting through, like talking to you in a meeting? Is it through you observing them doing what they’re doing now without the tool? Is this largely like, “Right now I can’t do any of this. I need this tool so I can enable this new thing that I currently don’t do,” or is it more like, “I have this long, convoluted process I have to do in order to achieve X. Can you help me build the tools so I can do it in less time?” One of those there is like a recipe for something already and you’re trying to optimize it and the other one is more like, “This is a new thing I’ve never been able to do but maybe I could with your help.” Do you put it into those buckets and then if it’s the former, how do you figure it out? Is it observation or just them talking to you about how they’re going to use it? How do you figure that out? Paul: There definitely are both of those scenarios come up. We often get requests about processes that already exist. At some point, there’s some tool in there already, sometimes it’s a highly manual process. In that scenario, one of the great assets of this particular group is that we have whole standards, documentation, and work co-optimization group here within network, which is a true treader to have. Usually, when that kind of problem comes up, the first thing we do is say, “Okay, let’s work with the [worker?]group and let’s get a really good map of what this process looks like end-to-end and let’s look at what the steps are, what tools are now, where the pain points are, and then once we have drawn this out so that we understand the context, let’s actually first look and see whether there’s any way we can optimize the process, because the last thing we want to do is to spend a lot of time implementing automation steps for a process that shouldn’t be that way in the first place.” We look at that process and we say, “Okay, how do we simplify it? How can we bring automation to bear, to make the process more straightforward, take less time, take less human effort.” Then, we usually at that point, sit down and actually design the automation solution around that. That’s one kind of problem and that process of workflow [analysis…] does involve what we call business process performers in each step. These are not the people who manage those areas. These are the people who are actually doing the work. We want to know what are they actually doing, we talk to them whenever we can, and we actually go [observe.] them because we can learn at least this much and probably more by watching what they’re doing and what they’re struggling with. That’s one side of it. The less well-described problems, those are the ones where nobody knows yet. This is something brand new. There, I think we tend to sit down and try to understand what these users are trying to accomplish, what problems they had in the past that this addresses, because so often, something that’s new is really some way connected to something old. We did this before. It didn’t really work or we have a gap here, there’s something that we’re not doing as well as we should or we’re not doing at all, and how do we get that better? A lot of it is about understanding what they’re looking for and I think the big element of that that’s key is breaking it down into manageable phases so we can deliver quickly and iterate quickly. The last thing you want to do is sit down and say, “Okay, we think we understand exactly what you need. Now, we’re going to go off for a year-and-a-half and build it.” That’s always a recipe for disaster. So, what we want to do is sit down and say, “Let’s take the most important crux of what you’re trying to get at here. Let’s implement something in a few weeks or a month. Then, let’s sit down and get it in your hands, get your feet back on it, and then figure out the next piece.” This doesn’t mean we can’t have a plan for like, “Here’s really roughly what we think the phases are going to be and how they’re going to be laid out. But let’s have these checkpoints along the way and let’s iterate based on what we actually are able to learn, what we actually to benefit from.” That’s what we found is the key to those kinds of new projects is the fast iteration cycle. Brian: We’ve talked a little bit about the MVP approach, which is about doing that minimal amount of work, which may or may not be working code, but you did a minimum amount of stuff to figure out whether or not it’s meeting a need that your customer has. You’re going through some type of observation process to fuel the first thing, the first asset or output that you create. It’s fueled by some kind of observation or research upfront so that when you go up to bat and take the swing, there’s a better chance of at least to base hit and not a strikeout or something. I fully support that type of effort instead of me going off, “We all have the data. We’ll send you back a kit and then you can put it together yourself. It will take a year, you’re going to dump everything into the data warehouse, and then you fall into the Gartner 85% of ‘Big Data Projects That Failed’ category, which nobody wants to be in that whole thing. I think that that’s really great you’re doing some of that. Earlier, you said you have a lot of different products and you said two to three of them are large. I’m just curious. Large by number of users? What justifies putting a dedicated product manager on it and what’s the extra love that is received because you’re one of those two or three? Is it they have a dedicated designer and dedicated engineers? It is more research time? Tell us about your big ones. Paul: I would say that the largest projects usually have someone who’s effectively an architect for the project, who may also be part of the development team. They usually have a development team. It’s usually several people. At least in an ideal world, three or four is probably typical for larger projects. Then there’s a project manager who is managing the project and also how that reports up into our overall program of initiatives for that organization. Usually, those projects, to get substantial research, are going to be priorities for the organization at some higher level. The last [piece] probably the most important piece is that there’s a product owner, who may or may not be the architect, in some cases the architect plus feedback from the stakeholders is enough to make it work, but most of the time, it’s usually somebody who is also the project owner or the product manager who’s really responsible for shaping the design of that product. For example, one of the big tools we’re working on has to do with increased virtualization that we’re rolling out within the Akamai network. This is a big project because it’s a company-wide initiative. We have somebody working on designing the interface and working to figure out how the interface to provisioning works within the context of all the processes we have here at Akamai. Another example, one of our key analysis or databases for analytics and for planning. There, the ownership is essentially a data team who is responsible for this database, the universe of this data, and roughly how it’s visualized. That team has responsibility for that database for its schema, how we got that data, where it comes from, its cleanliness, but also for the visualization aspect of it, and then it’s now also inheriting this ‘how do we use Tableau as part of that ecosystem?’ Just to give you some idea how these projects are organized and then what the roles are. Brian: Got it. Your large projects fall both into maybe a database that’s sitting behind Tableau as the interface and then you have another one, the server provisioning one, which sounds like a custom web-based application or something? Paul: That’s right. Brian: So then, for that one, to me that’s the decision support. The provisioning action would be the decision the human takes theoretically, upon some analytics or insight, that made them decide, “I need to push the button to deploy X servers in Y region or whatever it may be.” Is that decision support part of that custom product as well? Or is this a balance between two or three different Tableau instances that are behind different databases, and then you co-authored the provisioning tool and just do the action, you make the decision in that tool, but the insight about when and how and where to make the decision is not part of the tool? Or is that actually in that tool as well, where it’s like, “Hey we predict that you should do this,” or “Here are the stats. You come and make the decision on provisioning based on what’s in this tool.” How much is that wrapped together versus a series of different URLs you’re going to bounce through and piece together yourself with eyeball analysis? Paul: There’s some separation of systems and we’re actually moving into a more integrated direction. For example, a lot of us begin with a customer demand. Either we determine or the customer gives this information that helps us determine that they need capacity in a certain area. That drives the process but that also factors in to a lot of decision-making that goes on, right about exactly what gets deployed, where, and when. There’s elements of this that are integrated in a sense that the deployments that we’re planning to make to expand a network or to choose a network in some way, are inputs into this great big optimization model where you say, “Here’s what we know we think is coming, here’s what we know we think is going to happen, here’s the moves we’re planning to make when and where we will run out of capacity. I think we’re moving towards a more integrated feedback model for that where less of the work has to be sort of connect the dots by a human being and more to saying, “Okay, all the systems have this data and if they can exchange it with each other, then we have all the data in the places we need it.” Brian: You’re talking about this feedback cycle annually, then you might look back and say, “How well did we arrange for these optimizations? We planned for these predictive resource allocation or whatever it may be,” you look back and see how accurate that was by looking at the utilization rates or something? Paul: Exactly. Is there a customer demand we failed to meet? On the flip side, were there servers sitting around underutilized? Brian: Got it. When we talk about Akamai going out and deploying servers, are you talking about deploying physical hardware in a datacenter or are you just talking about provisioning up virtual servers on the cloud somewhere? I’m just curious because you guys are a network that sits on top of the internet. Does this involve lots of humans and you’re rolling out hardware and all that or are we really talking about virtual deployments? Paul: Some of each, but one of Akamai’s hallmarks, actually, is the breadth of the network. We have some servers in pretty remote locations. These are physical servers. These are places in some cases where there isn’t a lot of good cloud providers or anything like that. Brian: Johnny’s going to the Arctic to install some Dell servers. Paul: That’s right. I’ll tell you there’s a datacenter in Antarctica and it’s possible we have a server there. Brian: Someone’s got to go rewire it once in a while. Oh, we’re out of a storage. There’s still disk drives in that cloud up there. They might be flash, but they’re still a piece of hardware. Paul: One of the things that really differentiates Akamai is that we have this extensive edge network which really is pretty unparalleled to the industry. Brian: When there’s a report back then, do they look at the travel cost for Johnny going to the Arctic on an ice clipper or whatever it’s called, and then was it worth going there to deploy these servers? Paul: Sure. Increasingly, that is the kind of analysis that we’re doing. [and] we manage the network according to some of that. When there’s servers that are sitting somewhere and just not getting used or they’re there but they were extremely expensive to put there, then maybe that’s not a place to cover in the future. But in some cases, it makes sense to keep our coverage really good even if in one area where we’re sacrificing a little bit of cost to keep the coverage up over all and that might be worth it. Brian: Right. I’m curious. Now that you’ve been here awhile and through all these, do you have any stories or anecdotes about a particular user experience, a customer/internal user that found an approach that’s useful, or you’ve got some feedback or maybe it was negative, but you learned something not to do it again, or any type of anecdotes that you can think about that were insightful for you? Paul: Yes. We had a number of tools that we use for manipulating all the business data around what’s deployed in our network. I would say that I guess the best [anchor??] I had about them is that we’ve found there are tools that are very commonly used because of their flexibility. But if you actually look at the tool itself and you look at the complexity of the tool, it’s not that complex. It’s the default way of using things and people have used it continually because it has always been the way of using it, when in fact, there’s nothing particularly special about it. We’ve seen in certain circumstances where you give somebody a new tool that just works faster, it provides very similar interface, or you found some tweak to that workflow that really can save them tons and tons of time, and you just watch their eye pop out. They realized that you just probably saved them two hours a day. It’s interesting that that can happen in pockets and corners. There are many tools that have been built already to help with that but there are still plenty of opportunity for it. Brian: That’s great. That’s one of the things I think I love about being a designer. A lot of times, the big picture rewards like, “Was this product valuable or profitable?” There’s these lagging indicators which take a while and they don’t have the same hit as those small wins which were like, “I just saved this guy two hours a day doing a task that has nothing to do with his skill set. It’s just labor. He’s not using his brain. He just has to download these logs, put them in Excel, run a lookup, and then blah-blah-blah. And now it’s just bam.” I love that and that’s part of it for me, at least the joy of doing design work and stuff. I totally relate to the way you’re saying about helping someone. It is so much about helping people and you also feel like, “Man, I’m also helping the company because I’m helping this person use his brain to do much more important things than maybe he was doing with tool time, like downloading crap and uploading into a tool, sorting it, changing this, and blah-blah-blah.” Most of that is tool time. That’s not the, “Should we put more servers in Antarctica?” It’s not the thinking time and the valuable business time. Paul: It’s one of the very fulfilling aspects of the job like this where you’re building tools for internal stakeholders. In many software industries, you build product but your users might not be accessible for you or hardly at all. “I see that they’re right down the hall.” It’s a great fulfillment I think in building something that meets a person’s need and having that feedback and knowing that [did.] and having the satisfaction of that. Brian: Yeah, that’s awesome. This has been great. I’m curious. Do you have any closing advice for other product owners or data product leaders, analytics practitioners in your space, maybe about changing domain, you’re in a new domain? Any kind of insights looking back in this six months or however long that’s been that you’ve been there? Paul: I would say above all, my advice would be take the time to plan. Nobody ever thinks they have the time to design or to plan. To some extent, you just have to say, “If we don’t do this, [you know] the thing we build is not going to be worth nearly a much as the thing we could build.” You’re much better off figuring out the right design for something before you build it. Even when you think you don’t have the time, ask your managers and then your management chain for that space you need to get that pipeline started the right way because once you actually design things, you’re going to find that the number of people you’re helping and the degree at which you’re helping them is much greater. Brian: I can totally get behind that. That closing statement, I agree. First of all, you’re putting that anchor in place to do good things down the road. You’re probably reducing you’re technical debt and you’re maximizing your ability to change, especially when you’re doing small deployments. You’re probably going to need to change stuff, so a little bit of designing and planning upfront can do a lot for both the engineering part of it but also most importantly the customer experience getting that right. So, amen to that. Paul: Maybe the last part of that, just to add, is sometimes we take for granted the job we’ve been at for a long time. We actually take for granted that we think we know what everybody needs already. Sometimes, actually, it’s a blessing when you come to something brand new, because you’re not to assume you already know what that person across the hall really needs. You say, “I’m going to ask that person because I have no idea.” I would say these problems are the same everywhere. Whether you’re in a place, in a domain you’ve been for a while, there’s still going to be some aspect to that problem and you don’t understand what that person is living with. Pretend being the new guy for as long as you can. Go ask again and get to really understand what that person is experiencing because I know you’re going to able to meet the need much better. Brian: Yeah, I think that’s great advice. You don’t have that bias from your own knowledge about the domain or your assumptions there and that’s just a good design technique in general is being able to compartmentalize. We all come to the table with bias but if you can try to put that aside. For me, a lot of times it’s like leaving with new stuff with clients. It’s explain it to me like a five year old and I tell my clients sometimes this like, “What does it mean to deploy a server? What is he literally going to do and how does he know when to push the button to go do that,” and sometimes they look at you like, “What do you mean? You don’t know what a server is?” It’s like, “Well, I know what a server is, but literally I want to see every step it takes to know to go put one there. Is the guy going to walk out there with a box and rack it up? Or is this a virtual thing? Literally tell me what that’s like, that whole process.” Even though I know something about how that works, you’re going with that clean slate because you want to be open to those things you don’t know to ask about, and that the more you can come in with removing as much of that bias is possible, you might find those nuggets and stuff that just pop out to you that the customer doesn’t know to tell you about, but that they’re just going through their process. They’ll often ping you. You have these moments where you’ll learned something you didn’t go in there to ask about and sometimes it can be a really big thing like, “Wow. That’s really what the gap here is. It’s not this. It’s this another thing.” Having that really childlike innocence about the way you inquire can help enable that. Paul: Absolutely. Brian: Where can people find out about you? LinkedIn? Twitter? Are you out there in the internet? Paul: I’m on LinkedIn, for sure. I’m on Twitter. I’m on Facebook. Brian: Where are you on LinkedIn? What’s your Twitter handle? I’ll put the links in the notes, too. Paul: I think I’m @pjmattal everywhere. Brian: @pjmattal on Twitter. Okay, great. I’ll put your information up there. Thanks for coming on the show. It’s been great to hear about what you’re doing in Akamai and good luck as you guys charge forward. Paul: All right. Thanks.

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The owner of Identified Talent Solutions, it's a talent recruitment company and this company has grown to the point where it's in the ink 500 Paul David   Stefan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. Respect the Grind with Stefan Aarnio. This is the show where we interview people who have achieved mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors, anyone who's achieved mastery and examined what it took to get there. Today on the show we have Paul David. He is the owner of Identified Talent Solutions, it's a talent recruitment company and this company has grown to the point where it's in the ink 500 of feet. Indeed Paul, welcome to the show. Respect the grind. Good to see you, my friend. Paul: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me Stefan. Stefan: Awesome. Yeah, I love having guys like you on the show because we got so many real estate people. I'm a real estate investor you know, I teach flipping houses and rental properties and stuff like that. And I love having someone from a different field and so for the people at home who don't know you that well Paul, tell us how'd you get started in the talent recruitment business? That's something that I'm sure is an awesome business. I've just never thought about it. So how did you get started? Paul: Sure. It was about 15 years ago, right out of college. I got into a firm that does third party recruiting. So basically they provide candidates, they provide employees to other companies. I did that for about six months. Very salesy position. Didn't think I was very good at it. I was really, really shy back then. But then I went into a mortgage company, they shot as a recruiter, mortgage was booming back then. I learned my whole entire trade from that particular point. After 10 years I decided, well it's about time to go on my own, utilized a lot of the relationships that I had over my 10 year career and I built the business basically in my garage. Stefan: Wow. I love stories where it starts in the garage. I think Apple started like that. All of these, I think Harley Davidson started in the garage. They all start in garages. I think Google started in a garage too. Paul: Yeah. Amazon started in the garage. Stefan: Yeah Bro. It's great. So really pertinent topic I think is recruiting. And a lot of people listening to the show, maybe they're solo preneurs or maybe they got like two employees or one employee or they want to recruit more. How does somebody effectively recruit? 'Cause I'll let the cat out of the bag here Paul. Every recruit I've done for my business has always been a referral. I've never done well with a head hunter. I've never done well with somebody recruiting for me it's always been through someone I know and I've tried agencies before. I've spent money before for whatever reason they don't stick. The talent is good if they don't know my brand or they don't know me in advance for whatever reason doesn't go. So how do you effectively recruit talent for so many companies and how does that match really work? Paul: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I think what they need and recruitment's really tough because it's not only a matter of just the skill set that they have, but it's also how do you fit that person into a culture? Even if they have the incredible skillset. I mean that person might be really successful in one company, but then they go into a different culture and then they're completely off. So it is a little bit of a difficult process, but you said that most of your hires have been referrals. That by far is the best way to hire people in your company. Is if somebody in your company or yourself or someone that you know and trust vouches for them then that's fantastic. It's almost kind of like dating. If you meet someone and they're like, yeah, they are a great person, then generally you're going to trust that. Paul: But, if you don't have that capability, it is really important to stream that person properly. Now there's no silver bullet. So I mean you've kind of seen it. There's no silver bullet in picking the right person off the bat. I mean employment's like a dating process. So what we do is one, we're very narrow in the things that we do. So we know the skill set. So if you're a generalist and you're trying to do everything for everyone, like the larger staffing firms, it's really hard to understand what kind of skills are looking for cause you have to master one particular vertical. So what we do is we're mastering one specific vertical and understanding the skillset so the candidate is an optimal candidate from a skillset perspective. Then what we need to do is really, really build that relationship with the client. What is their team like? I mean not only the culture of the company, but what's the team like? How do they operate? What are they composed of? I mean what do they like to do? So you can look at the intangibles and the tangibles and place that candidate properly. Paul: So that's kind of how we do it. We really have to, I mean it's like a dating process. We got to make sure that we know our client really well so we know exactly what kind of candidate put in there. Stefan: I like what you say about the dating and I teach people real estate investing and they'll say, "How do I get a good deal?" And I'm like, "Bro, you got a good deal in real estate just like dating." You pick the most beautiful girl at the school, the Prom Queen. And if you go ask on stage wearing her sash that says homecoming and her tiara, you're never going to get a date. But if you wait for her to break up with her boyfriend and she's under the bleachers crying, wearing some dirty sweatpants with makeup running down her face, that's the time where you go in there and go, "Hey baby, look, let's grab a cheeseburger." And she's like, "I've been hungry for years. Let's go." And so it's really interesting 'cause I think people always try to over complicate business. Stefan: We always go, "Oh man, it's different. My industry is different. This business is different. This time it's different." It never is. It really is just dating. It's relationships. And I like what you said about, it's almost like a marriage. These two people have to come together, the culture has to come in with the skill set and it has to fold together. What do you think when you're out there recruiting people Paul, what's the most important thing that you look for in any candidate? Maybe like is it grit? Is it drive? Is it just general intelligence? What's something that when you're just meeting talent that you want to see in just about everybody? Paul: For me what I'm looking for is an intangible skillset. You can have someone that has the most impressive resume, the most impressive of education, but if they don't have a personality where they can build relationships, well I mean, at the end of the day, the fundamentals of business is relationships. If you do not know how to build a relationship, then you're just going to fail, period. I mean like, you know, I don't care how much you automate things, all the click funnels I hear, if you do know how to shake hands, talk to somebody and really build that relationship, you're not going to be successful, period. So I want to make sure that one of the things that we make sure it is how do we converse with this person? Will this person be able to influence other ... I don't care if it's an individual contributor or a manager. They need to be able to interact with people regardless if they do software development or if they're a nurse. Paul: So relationship skills are very, very important. Communication skills are very, very important and that's what we look for first and foremost. It's not a complicated thing, but I think people would really want to work with other people and that they can kind of get along. And if that happens then what happens is you build trust, right? So once you build trust, because you [inaudible 00:06:37] then you can kind of work through anything else. Stefan: I love that. So is it more, would you say, are you looking for more he EQ or IQ? I guess you're more of an EQ guy. Emotional quotient. Paul: I'm an EQ guy. I mean most of the people that I have, you know what I first did this, I was looking for skills, but when I started my company, I was looking for grit. I was looking for someone that had tenacity. Someone that wanted to improve, I can teach them the skills, I can't teach them to drive. Stefan: You just got to respect the grinding bro. Yeah there go. You've got a gong already. A gong's been hit man. I like that. You know, grit is something that in the military academies, they noticed that that's the number one thing that keeps people going. And one thing I say all the time is, I fail at 80% of the stuff I do. I'm failing all the fricking time, man. I'm an entrepreneur, so it's constant failure. And then the 20% I win on is so big. It handles all the losses and then some. Now, how would you describe grit? What is grit? What is the ability to keep going? What is that? Paul: You kind of hit it on the head. It's like for me happens after my why. Why do I want to achieve something? Why do I want to, what is it that's important to me? Once I fundamentally understand why something's important to me, then it's the dedication. What I've learned about grit is grit really is the ability to embrace failure, right? And really learn from that failure. 'Cause here's the deal. I don't care what you do in life you're going to fail. I don't care if it's walking down the street. One of these days you're going to fail. 'Cause I look at things this way, you're going to fail or you're going to succeed. And those two instances for failure, I'm going to learn something. I'm going to learn something really quick so it doesn't happen again. And if I do that, then I'm going to succeed. So I try to rush into failure as much as I can. Paul: I try to embrace it as much as I can and I look at it, I think being able to have grit is you can look at that failure not as a failure itself, but an opportunity to learn. Because all of us entrepreneurs, if we don't know how to learn from our failures, we're never going to be succeeding. So I've kind of looked at it in a different perspective. I actually enjoy failure because it's like, "Oh crap, I didn't do this right. Well let's try to figure out something else." So that's how I see it. So I think grit is the ability to understand that failure is more of a learning opportunity and something that sets us back forever. Stefan: I like what John Maxwell says. He says, "You either win or you learn." Paul: Yeah. That's in his book Failing Forward. Stefan: Yeah, you win and you learn. And that's just something I started to do in my life. I had some pretty hardcore things happen to me this year is what's the meaning of this? What's the story? What am I learning here? And I don't know if you ever read the book Man's Search for Meaning. You ever read that Viktor Frankl? It's one of Tony Robbin's favorites, and it's about a man who was thrown in the Nazi death camps in World War II. And he had a book manuscript, I guess he was like a scientist or something. A book manuscript he was going to publish and the Nazis took his book and they I don't burn it or ripped it up. They took it away from him. And what he noticed when he was inside the death camps was the optimist died first. So the people who were "Oh, we'll be out by Christmas, we'll be out by Christmas, we'll be out by Christmas." Stefan: Christmas comes, they die of a broken heart. But the people who lived through the death camps were the people who had meaning and they had a child to see. They had a book to write, they had a spouse to go find after the camp. And that to me when something bad happens to you in life, it's so interesting because there's two meanings. There's the victim meaning you can have, and then there's the, what am I learning meaning. Is that something you see in some of these very successful people where they have major setbacks and kind of the bigger the setback, the higher they climb? Paul: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people that have overcome tragedy, have been very, very successful because they know how to adapt to it and they know how to get over it. I think when we first started talking, I told you I never really wanted to be an entrepreneur. I was kind of forced at it where my wife died of cancer at 36 we went through a four and a half year battle with cancer. I was left with a four year old. I had $150,000 in debt. And it's like I had to make a decision at that particular point. I had to look up my why, which was my daughter. What am I going to do? Am I going to crumble? Am I going to fall apart? I mean, that's not an alternative that I want. So I did, and I had no idea how to start this company. Paul: All I know was I needed to do it. So with that intensity and that drive, I said, I have to make this happen. And after that what's all your focus is I think from tragedy, once all your focus is pointed to one direction, then you'll start to see the opportunities that you've never seen before. So, I mean, I think people that have gone through tragedies and really decided to not let that tragedy define who they are, but let their choices make them who they are, that you see magic when that happens. Because intensity to succeeding and making sure that they're never defined by what happened to them in life so. Stefan: Bro I'm giving you a gong. I love you, man. Dude, I love you man. You know that story you have. I'm so sorry to hear your wife died. I mean that's just the most brutal thing. But I love that you picked up the pieces and I love that you saw the why in your daughter. And I love that you were able to get that emotional charge 'cause so many people would have folded like a lawn chair. It's so easy. Whenever you go downtown, you see a homeless guy on the side of the street. That's someone who folded a lawn chair, but you said, "No, I'm going to use this. I'm going to use it as fuel." And it's tremendous to see what you built. Now shifting gears a little bit, Paul- Paul: I actually wanted to kind of comment on that I don't know it's going to be ... I have colleagues and friends that have children right? And every time I hear them they say like, "Well, I can't do this. I can't do that. I can't do that because I have to take little Johnny or little Cathy or little whatever to the baseball game. I can't do that." I decided and I think people should decide that you know what? You don't make your children your reason why you can't do things. You make them your reason why you do, do things. Stefan: Oh, another gong. Bro. We're hitting today. Church of the grind is in session. Damn. Instant replay on that. I want you to say that again for the kids at home. Paul, one more time. Paul: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I have colleagues and I have friends that continuously tell me "I can't do this because I have to take little Johnny, or they have to take their children or their little Kimmy to their basketball game. Their ballet practice." But you know what? You have to be able, I mean, either you're going to choose to have your children be the reasons why you can't do something or you make them your reason why you can. So that's the different mindset. I mean, you have to make your kids a reason why you can achieve your dreams. Because that's the truth of the matter is if you don't, they're going to learn from that. Don't ever make your children your reason why you can't do something for yourself because that's not their fault. Stefan: You know, it's like the old seminar story. I don't know if you've heard this story, but there's two brothers and they're identical and they're twins. And one brother says he's living in cardboard box downtown and it's raining on this cardboard box and he's with the woman that's ugly. And they fight and they hate each other and he doesn't know where his kids and he can't hold down a job. He's got no money in his bank account. His creditors are coming after him all the time and life is horrible for this guy. And he says, "My life's a failure 'cause my dad was a drunk who beat me and my mom was a prostitute, smoked weed." And then I cross the tracks. And the nicest part of town is his identical twin brother who's in a mansion, the gorgeous wife and they have great sex and they've got lots of kids and the kids love the dad and they love the mom and they'd go on four vacations a year and they got the dream car and money in the bank and they sleep well at night. Stefan: And he says, "Man, I'm a success today 'cause my dad was a drunk who beat me. My mum was a prostitute who smoked weed every day." You know that same thing happened to those two guys. But on one side, one guy says, "This is my fuel." And the other guy says, "Oh man, this thing totally devastated me." And I love your story, man. Massive, massive props to your story because I come from a family, my dad was the son of an alcoholic and he had the dad who beat him. He says "Oh, I can't do this. I can't do that. It totally froze him." And with me, I use it as total motivation you know, my why. I think these interests are the whys, you're talking about your why's your little daughter. With whys I notice it's either people's parents that they want to save or it's their kids. Paul: Sure. Yeah. Stefan: And it's just either they want to help their parents who are screwed up or fix the parents or whatever, or they want to help their kids. And you know, how important do you think Paul to have a reason and a meaning outside of yourself to succeed? It can't be all about you. Paul: Oh, 1000%. I think if you don't have a reason outside, I think as human beings we're called to do something bigger than ourselves. And the reasons have to be more than ourselves. So I think innately, if you do not have a reason outside of your own personal gain, then it's going to be futile at the end because the drive stops. The why stops. So it's like when people are only motivated about money or cars or whatever, and they get that, then what happens after that? Right? If you have a purpose that's intangible and that can create a change for everybody else and the reason outside of yourself needs to be there. I mean it just has to. Stefan: I love that. We're going back to the Viktor Frankl Search for Meaning. You know, Man's Search for Meaning. What is the meaning of all this? And I think that one thing that's common across all of our shows, you're a very successful guy, especially in the space you're in. Is that the darker people get, the more they go into the darkness, the more they're in the light. And the worse it is and the deeper that pit of despair is, I call it the pit of despair. The deeper people go into that darkness, the higher they're able to climb after. And I think there's so many people at home that want to, they want to have it easy. They want to get a job, they don't want to go through any of the risk or the pain, they don't want to have their whys die, anything like that. But in some ways, Paul this is an interesting thing, like that event of losing your partner in some ways is that the best thing that ever happened to you? Paul: Yeah. I mean it's the worst and the best thing that happened to me. When I look back at it now, it's been about five years since she's passed away. But I look back at it now and even when we were struggling, right. And it was even before that, I mean we were homeless when my daughter was born and she was three months and we were sleeping out of our pathfinder and then a year later she got cancer. I mean we were going through a lot of crap, but I look back at it now and I think about it. If I didn't go through any of those struggles, it wouldn't have made me who I am today. Because I had to choose- Stefan: I'm going that. I'm gonging that bro. Paul: I had had to choose to be better. I had to choose. And I think seeing my wife pass away at an early age, that kind of pushed me too. 'Cause I think what happens is people don't realize how delicate their life is. Right. They can always wait until tomorrow. They can always wait till tomorrow. They can always wait till tomorrow. And you never know. You never know. Like my wife never knew she wasn't supposed to die when she was 36 so. Stefan: Right, right. Well that's super young men and like most women live till like 86 or something. So it's like 50 years too early. Paul: Yeah really early. Stefan: One word that you use and that I love those, the word choose. And the one thing that no one can ever take away from any of us, even if we're thrown in a Nazi death camp, is the choice to choose. Paul: Yes. Stefan: We can always choose the meaning of things. We can choose, what does this mean? This horrible thing. Is this going to be a wake up call? Is this going to be your fuel for the future? I had a big event in my life when I was younger and it was my parents' divorce. And it's interesting, my brother loved them to pieces. He uses it as a reason why he can't do stuff. You know, he says, I remember once he was yelling at my mom, he said, "Mom, if you guys didn't get divorced, I'd be in the NHL Right now." I'm like "Really?" I'm like "Dude, I don't know about that. You're a December baby. December babies don't make it in the NHL. You've got January, February, March, April go in." Paul: You've got a lot of Malcolm Gladwell. Stefan: Yeah man. I'm a Malcolm Gladwell reader. But it's so interesting 'cause I was with one of my girlfriends at the time and she said to me. I remember she came to one of my seminars and she said "All this stuff that you do and all this that you built, you do it for him." And I said, "Who?" She didn't know me that well and I didn't know her that well but she in two seconds as a woman with her intuition knew that the education company I've built is for my father 'cause my father never had that. And that was, yeah, there's such a deep meaning there and there's such a big why and it's so much fuel. 'Cause in life you got so much shit thrown at you all the time. They just, it's buckets and buckets of shit over and over again. And the people with a strong enough why can bear any how. What do you think about that famous quote? I think it's a Nietzsche quote. Paul: Yeah. No, I absolutely believe that. I absolutely believe that things that get you through the day. And the thing that gets you through life is why are you doing it? If you don't know why you're doing it, you're like a sailboat without a rudder. I mean, you're just kind of going endlessly through and through life, you know? And I think nowadays, I look at it nowadays with how instant everything is. Postmates, instant coffee instant, instant this, instant that. We're forgetting that the true gift of success is actually the journey that you go on. It's who you have to become, to become successful. That's what the gift is, not the actual achievement. It's who you have to become to achieve that. So like, yeah and to achieve that, you need to know your why and why you do it. I mean, so yeah, I absolutely believe in that quote. Stefan: Wow. Yeah. Now, I love what you're saying about the process and you know, this show's called Respect the Grind, right? You've got to respect that 10 years, respect the 10,000 hours. You can't cut the line. And we live in Instagram life, it's Instagram, Insta popcorn, Insta sex, Insta phone, Insta everything. Right? And I wrote about my book here Hard Times Create Strong Men. It's my fifth book I wrote. And it's interesting, right now there's like a porn and video game epidemic with young men. And I did the math. It's 10,000 hours to master let's say business or something, right? 10,000 hours. Well, you can master a video game in 500 hours. So where we give up our 10,000 hour endeavor, like maybe becoming an artist or a musician or an athlete or maybe starting a business. Stefan: Those are all like really worthy things. We go play World of Warcraft for 500 hours and we're at level 100 torrent shifting or something. What do you think about, does that translate into the workforce now with you recruiting young people? I mean, are there people out there who just don't get it and they're playing their world of Warcraft but they're not willing to put in the 10,000 hours? Paul: That's funny that you're saying that because I've visited Blizzard many times for one of our clients. Stefan: Dude, I want to work for Blizzard when I was younger, they didn't return my phone call though. Paul: Oh man. They give away like swords and shields when you hit your five and 10 year anniversary. Quite an organization but to your question about the younger generation, you know we do a lot of work with this particular segment because they're the incoming generation, they have to take over in the workforce. Right. You know what we are figuring out, it's not that they're not intelligent and it's not that they're not motivated or driven. They just want to get from A to B as fast as possible. And you and I both know it's like that's not going to work. You can't master anything. I don't know taking an online course or skipping out of school or whatever it is. You've got to learn the fundamentals and the basics. It's like building a house, right? If you're building a house and you decide that you don't really want to do and you think that the foundation, you just build it on the rock side it came on, it's got to fall down eventually. Paul: So we forget that I need to build that. But yeah, I mean I think because of how society is propagating this instantness that we're having, we're not putting in the fundamental work to make sure that not only our minds are strong, but our characters are strong, our will is strong, our drive is strong, everything is strong. So it is getting a little bit harder to recruit the younger folks just because they want things more instantaneous than before. And what they do is if they don't get it, they start moving to a different place of work or something else. I mean, I think the statistics were that the new grads, the last two years of college graduates, their average tenure at a company's eight months. So after eight months they're out. If they're truly a millennial, the average tenure at a company is 18 months. So we're seeing them just take off. So even if you get into a company, there's no level of mastery yet in that. Paul: And even if you're an entrepreneur, because it seems like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur now, but it takes a lot more than 18 months or eight months to really master a craft. You can't do that automatically. And if you do, you're probably going to lose it in the end. If you get lucky, you'll make a lot of money, but you lose it in the end because you don't have the fundamental to see it through different types of market. Stefan: Yeah. You know, those numbers are scary to me, man. I mean, I'm an employer and what happened to me last year, I came out of the jungle. I was fasting in the jungle for last year's 18 days, I'm going on a 40 day water fast actually. Yeah bro. So I came out of the jungle last year and I wrote this book, Hard Times Create Strong Men because I came out of the jungle and my young 21 year old, 22 year old millennial employees were saying like, "You're mean, I don't like you. You make me feel like a piece of shit." You know, they started complaining. And I was like "What's wrong with these guys? What's going on?" And you know it's interesting 'cause their tenure, those young millennial boy's wasn't very long. Probably right in that timeframe that you mentioned. And what happened was I went home and ... Well first I had to give these guys a talk. I gave two three hour talks one week in my office of how to be a man, which is like the most, that would never happen in the 50s. That would never happen in the 60s right? Stefan: The sixties you'd like smoking a cigar and a scotch and everyone just knew how to be a man. That was a normal thing. But I give this like six hour how to be a man talk and do your work. Being a man is about your work and that's what you do. We don't have a uterus, we don't have ovaries, we can't bear children. You're a dad by proxy, but you didn't have that thing come out of you, man. I mean you planted some seeds and walked away right? Paul: I didn't do it. I did the fun work. Stefan: You did the fun work yeah. It was like two minutes. So like- Paul: One and a half. You're being too generous to me. Stefan: One and a half minutes yeah. And I'm going to give that a gong. Bang. So these young boys, they're like, "Oh man, I want to be the leader of the company. I want this big salary. I want to make all this money." And what I found that was really interesting was these boys who were complaining like teenage girls never had fathers. And it was so interesting because you know, look at the stats 50% of the couples are divorced now, the marriages fall apart. And then I don't know what the status for dads sticking around, but dad's typically don't stick around 'cause either they don't want to stick around or the laws are so bad, the guy isn't around. And then you've got this entire generation of young men raised by young women and they don't know how to be a man and show up to work. Stefan: So I wrote this book Hard Times Create Strong Men and the cycles of history go hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. Paul: That's absolutely right. Right. Stefan: And we're in this like weak man time and it's so interesting, my sales manager Ian, he had a very strong relationship with his dad. And his dad has a farm, a goat farm out East and the we're in Canada up here. And he had a great relationship with his dad and because he had a great wish up with his dad, he has a great relationship with work. And it's so interesting cause the guy with the good dad, he's a great worker, he does great work. And then the guys with problems still at my office guess what? Have daddy issues. You ever notice this where there's like daddy issues on some of these men and then they creep in your workforce and now they're bouncing after eight months. You ever notice that? Paul: Yeah. I think there's a strong linkage between how someone grew up and what their family structure was to whether it work [inaudible 00:26:14]. When people say that there's a work life and then there's a home life there's no difference. You're going to blend your personality with both. So yeah. I see there's a strong linkage. And also there's a strong link to you what you just said about your book where like, you know, when we're looking at World War II where all these young kids were born in a battle, right? They're after depression. There was a lot of adversity. But then you look at our times now we've been going through a lot of prosperity, especially in the last 10 years. I think we're both old enough to understand. In 2007 2008 there was a crash. Nearly all of us were getting our house foreclosed on and everything. Paul: So you've got these kids that have been going through this prosperity. I mean, you can throw anything at the wall and make money nowadays. And they haven't seen that [inaudible 00:26:54] yet. And then I think it's problematic in our domestic workforce too, because like especially in the technology field, because if you think about it, we've had all this prosperity and it's been a little bit easy, but then you have these emerging countries, these emerging markets like India and China that were oppressed for a long time and they're like, "Screw this shit." You know, like I want to work. Right. They were what we were going through back in World War II and the depression and things like that. So now they're becoming the very, very strong capitalistic societies that were a little bit more weak. So, I don't know it just, you made a really good point about your book because I completely agree with you on that. Stefan: Yeah. Well, they're hungry. Right. And like immigrants in America are four times more likely to become millionaires than native born Americans. Paul: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know that 'cause I'm an immigrant, so I get it. Stefan: Where were you from, man? Paul: I'm from the Philippines. Yeah, my dad- from Manila. Stefan: Okay. Awesome. Yeah, I'm up here in Winnipeg and we got, I think 16% of the population is from the Philippines. I would flip houses and I'd sell them to the new immigrants. So I'd give him the Canadian dream for like a 100 grand or 129 grand. These houses look like little mansions. Right? And I always have these customers from Manila and they'd see it and they go, "Oh man, I got to have that house." And we actually just got a Jollibee bro. Paul: Oh my God. That's awesome. Stefan: We got some spaghetti and like a chicken leg or like a mango pie. They're pineapple pie or mango pie at Jollibee? Paul: It's a mango pie. Stefan: Oh, a mango pie. I haven't been there, dude, I haven't been to Jollibee yet, but I heard they play the song, the Jollibee song and- Paul: Yeah, you got to go, man. Stefan: Man. I'm trying to look after my health here, man. Paul: You can do it once. Stefan: Yeah go try it once man. Do they have a hot dog spaghetti at Jollibee too? Paul: Yeah they do. So the Spaghetti they put a little bit of sugar in there to sweeten it up. Stefan: Oh, of course. Of course. My dad's from Sweden, so I have an immigrant dad, and I remember going to Sweden when I was 12 and we're sitting down at the table and like Sweden is like, it's one of those countries, I looked it up, I was like, what's a racial slur for a suite? They call the Spanish people spics and they call Italian people waps and I looked up the Swedish one there isn't one because they're tall and they're beautiful and they're smart. So nobody's the Swedish people. But I'm over in Sweden and it's such a developed place. And they had these like Woodfire pizzas back in the day and they had like nice little pastries, they're so civilized. Stefan: And then we sit down at the kitchen table at my aunts or great aunts, I don't even know who these family members are. We're sitting down at the kitchen table at their house and they're making spaghetti. And I'm like, "Oh damn, I love Spaghetti." You know, my mom makes a great spaghetti back in Canada. We sit down at the table and they give us these like white boiled noodles. So it's like plain ass noodles and then you know what they do. And Paul you're going to be horrified at this man. They put the ground beef like straight up on noodles. So you got just playing ground beef, not taco meat. It's just like plain like gray brown ground beef on these plain white noodles. 'Cause like in Sweden they're not into spices. It's like salt is the white band spice over there. Salt and bill pepper. Stefan: So they put the ground beef down on the noodles and then I was horrified. They pull on a ketchup bottle and you cover it and ketchup. I know Bro. Ketchup spaghettis, you haven't ground ketchup and it wasn't just white noodles. I went to house to house to house. I was like "How are you guys eating this ketchup spaghetti 'cause you know we got like Oregano, we got basil, we've got garlic, we got all these great things written in the Ketchup Spaghetti." But I digress. I digress Paul. Now, let me ask you this. A lot of young people listening to this show, 12 years old, 15 years old, 18 years old, different ages, younger people. Do you think in 2019, it's going to be 2019 in like a week. Do you think that it's still good to get a degree today? Or do you think that no degree is the way to go and just get some skills and figure it out? Paul: That's kind of a controversial topic, but I promote education. I think you should at least get your college degree. And the reason why you should do that is, and this is just what I truly believe is that college is an opportunity for you to, it's kind of like a playground, right? You're accomplishing something. A four year degree isn't easy. So it's the first step I'm trying to accomplish something before you do anything else from the studies. I got my degree in Kinesiology, which is exercise physiology. I obviously don't use that, but what I learned from college is I communicated with a lot of people. I had to collaborate with my other students. I had to do projects with the other students. I had to get them to buy into a lot of things. I was part of a fraternity, so I understood that organization. Paul: So it's much more of an experience than anything else. And that's what I grew out of. But I look back, I mean I even got my MBA, but a lot of the reasons why I did that was because of the networking progress and the ability to build relationships during that. So I was really active in college and that's why I think it meant something to me. The stats don't lie, I don't know the stats exactly off the bat, but college graduates tend to earn twice as much as high school graduates. People with masters have by 40% more earning potential then that someone with just a high school degree. Now we have to understand that, okay, well don't go to college and then start your own business. But the failure rate of business is 99%- Stefan: I was going to say 99 bro. 90 in the first five, 90 in the second five but 99 yeah, you're going to die man. Paul: Right. So it's like go ahead and not have any education and then you have nothing to really kind of I don't know fall back on I guess. And not to say that a degree is going to help you out because I'm in recruitment, so you have a degree and you don't have skills, it doesn't really matter. But what I've noticed that every time I do interview someone, someone that has been active in college and has gotten through college, they will most all the time be better communicators and be better at being able to grip through their job. So I mean, that's my opinion for whatever it's worth, I still believe in it. I come from a very highly educated family. My Dad's a physician, so I don't know, look at the statistics. Most of the billionaires have a college degree, so I wouldn't dash it I guess. Stefan: Yeah. There's a lot of BAs actually in the billionaire club, bachelor of arts, which is interesting. I got a degree in English. So I went to school, I went to music school 'cause I want to be a rock star. So my mom says, "Oh if you want to be a rock star, get a music degree." Right? So I go and I'm studying jazz of all things, which jazz, it's funny it's all over here up in Canada, 2005 so like I don't know what is this. Like 50 years after jazz is relevant. They opened this new music called Jazz [crosstalk 00:33:23] behind. So I went and got a ... I was working in the jazz faculty there and I was a professional musician and then I realized I don't want to be a jazz musician 'cause it's a very hard and horrible life. Stefan: And then I dropped out of that and I went to the business school and I dropped out of that. Then I went into computer science, I dropped out. I was very good at computer science. I wanted to work for Blizzard bro. That was actually ... And then I ended up dropping out of computer science and I went to the registrar and I said, "Hey, can you recommend a way for me to get out of here without dropping out that won't piss my parents off." And she said, "Yeah, take two poetry class, you're going to have an English degree." So now I have an English degree with a minor in music. And I remember 2008 that was when I graduated, it was May 2008 and I went to go get a job. And the only thing I could get with an English, was a call center job in the middle of the night selling luxury hotel rooms to rich people, and you actually needed a degree. Stefan: And it was, we were making minimum wage, it was just like hardcore minimum wage. And I remember having like a post grad depression about that cause I was like, "Man, I spent my whole life, I spent 12 years plus kindergarten or whatever, plus four years of university and that degree got me here to a call center job. I could have just painted houses." But here's the bittersweet flip side of it is I'm a resourceful person. So I've written five books now, I'm 32 I've written five books. I'm sure the English degree helped with that a bit. Paul: Probably. Stefan: And then Mark Cuban, the billionaire in Texas, he says that today in today's world, an English degree is suddenly one of the most powerful degrees to have because we live in the world of content. People need more and more content. All content comes from writing. And so it's interesting, I used to totally bash on my degree. I used to totally beat on it. I still beat on it, but I kind of have to shut up about it now because I've published five books. By the end of this year I'll be up to eight books. I'm an avid blogger. On the flip side though, I wrote my first book when I was 12 before I went to school. So it's an interesting thing. I think it's a catch 22. I throw out resumes with degrees in my office. When they come in, I got a stack a degrees and it's actually kind of sad. Stefan: I get guys with PhDs, they go in the garbage. I get guys with MBAs or master's. It's pretty sad man. 'Cause a lot them are applying for entry level sales jobs. Now let me ask you this, Paul. I mean degree in school versus learning to sell. What do you think is more valuable? Someone who knows how to sell and make money on commission or somebody who has some sort of degree. We don't even know what it is. Mystery box. It could just be a mystery degree. What would you say is more valuable? Paul: Selling. Hands down. If you know how to sell, you'll beat out a degree. Stefan: So, okay. I love that answer man. I mean that's powerful stuff and I think being good at sales, it's funny like the Mormons in Utah, they all go on missions and they sell bibles door to door. So they have all these fantastic call centers up in Utah for these educated smart, street smart salespeople who speak two languages or more. With learning to sell, what are some of the best places that people can go to learn to sell? 'Cause there really isn't a degree in that there isn't a school. Nobody teaches it. Where do you think people should go and learn to sell? Paul: You know what? I'm kind of lost for like where people would want to sell. I mean, like when I'm talking to my sales guys I think the most important thing before any sales techniques is again, going back to the ability to build relationships. I don't think anyone likes to be sold to, but I think in order to be an effective salesperson, you have to be in a relationship with somebody and understand what their problems are, what their needs are, right? You can't just push it on them not knowing that there is a need. Right. I think the ability to be able to problem solve is one of the highest, well, one of the most critical abilities that there is. And the only way to do that is to be able to get into relationships. Paul: So, I mean, as far as sales techniques, I mean I don't know I guess I'm kind of lost as far as I think the best thing that you could possibly do in any kind of sales is really understand what the problem is. Or who you're dealing with and get into a relationship with them and make sure that once you do it, you can understand what their problems are and then you can fix it. Stefan: Right. Right, yeah. I love what you're saying man. I got a book I wrote here about sales called The Close: 7 Level Selling. On the back I put stop selling, start serving. That's just the main thing you said nobody wants to be sold these days. But it's funny 'cause everybody wants to buy. Paul: Yeah everybody wants to buy. Stefan: And they want to buy but they don't want to buy in some salesy way where they feel like you're manipulating them. They want to buy on their own terms. So how do you make it so that they choose you? So they decide and they want you. Coming back to dating. It's interesting like the man might choose the woman he wants to date, but he has to make the woman choose him. Paul: Yeah, I mean it's the same thing I think we're talking about. If we understand what the wires. So like let's take for instance our clients. If we get into a relationship and understand okay where their inefficiencies are, what's happening, what their troubles are with their current staff, what we can do. Once we understand what's keeping them up at night and what's keeping them desperate and what's keeping them in pain, people want to alleviate pain. So the minute you understand what their pain is and then you bring up a solution, you're not selling, they're going to be buying all day long. Stefan: Bum. You know, I heard a great quote weeks ago, I was down in San Diego at a conference and one of the speakers said "All human beings, all purchases are either avoiding or alleviating pain or elevating status." Paul: Yeah, true. I would bet it's more about pain. I think people are motivated by the carrot or the stick, but I think most people are motivated by pain. They don't want it. Why do we follow rules? Well, I don't want to get in trouble, right? Sometimes people don't understand the pain. So you have to be like, "Hey, you know what? As an expert, here's what's going to happen if you don't do that." So you've got to sometimes the pain understanding that you got to do good for them. You can't just create pain and just sell them crap. You've got to make sure that whatever you are doing is going to improve their situation. And I think that's how you have long lifelines. I'm sure you see that all day long in the real estate industry. Stefan: Yeah. Well one thing I say to my, and my sales guys, I say, "Look, do what's right for the customer.: And that gets in the ethics. I think ethics is the base, then it goes the product, then it goes sales, marketing, brand. And if you do what's right for the customer, whatever that is. If you go to chick fil a and you forget your credit card, the guy comes running out to get your credit card and hands you your food. If you do what's right for the customer, if you take care of the customer, you're always going to have food to eat. Right? Paul: Absolutely. I think in dealing with business integrity is the most. I mean that's the one thing that you cannot succeed without. You cannot succeed without integrity. Stefan: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Paul, I've got some questions I'd like to ask everybody. Here's one that I love just floating by you. Now, you see all sorts of people, man, you're in the hardcore people business. You got employees, you're recruiting, you're matching with customers. You're just like, your business is nothing but people. What do you think is the biggest cause of failure in people? Paul: They lose reasons on why they're doing it. It's always going back to the why, the problems, the challenges, the obstacles, whatever they have become bigger than the reasons why they're doing it. And once you start doing that, and a lot of it is perspective, if you start looking at, okay, I didn't get this promotion, I didn't to get this client, I didn't get this. And they start looking at all those challenges and obstacles and setbacks, that starts to vary your why. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons of failure. If you don't hold onto the reasons why you're doing things, you're going to fail nine times out of 10. So you've got to want to embrace that. But if you can't hold onto the reason why the heck you're doing something like a fitness goal, right? Paul: Like, okay, I want to lose 20 pounds. I lost 92 pounds. I was really heavy at one time and I wanted to do that because I wanted to be there for my daughter, right? And it got hard. I didn't want to wake up in the middle of the morning. I mean, it's not, the first thing that I want to do is wake up and be like, "Whoa, holy crap, I'm going to run like five miles." It's like I want to go to bed, but why am I doing that? Why am I doing this? And the reason why we fail is because we forget why we're doing things. Why was it important to begin with? So that's what I feel the biggest reason of failure is. Stefan: So it's really coming back to meaning, you know, when working out to be alive for your daughter or being healthy for your daughter's there, that's way bigger than you want to look sexy at the club and that mesh shirt you bought, right? Paul: Yeah. I mean that can be motivating to people too- Stefan: Oh yeah. Right. There's, there's some sex there, right? Paul: Yeah. There's always a why. If you don't know your why, then you're never going to be able to hold on to anything. You'll feel at everything if you don't know why you're doing it. Stefan: Right. I love that, man. I think we've had a really deep conversation here about the meaning and the why and it just translates everything. Now, Paul, if you go back in time, to let's say 15 year old Paul. And you would give yourself a piece of advice time machine here, what would you say to a 15 year old Paul? Paul: Do you. Don't think about anybody else and their opinions. Whatever's you feel is going to make you succeed, you do it. That would be my advice. Stefan: Yeah. Well everybody else is taken. You might as well do you, right. Paul: Exactly. Stefan: Awesome. Top three books that changed your life. Paul: Principles by Ray Dalio. Stefan: Damn. I'm giving that a gong. Great book. Paul: Awesome book. The Bible is one I mean just from a learning aspect and then Failing Forward by John C. Maxwell. Stefan: Those are three tasty books. Let me ask you this, the Bible and organized religions have lost a lot of ground in the last 70, 80 years in the United States, why do you think the Bible is so important? Personally, I think it's like I was born into a church and then I went to university, became an atheist communist as they manufacturer over there. And then now I'm back hardcore with the book of 5,000 years of human civilization and all the things that worked and didn't. But why do you think the Bible is so important? Paul: I think because there's a lot of great fundamentals in there. I think success books have, I mean they've originated somewhere, right? Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich is to think is great right? But then if you look back at Proverbs, it says "As a man thinketh so he is. So if it's like if you kind of go back to it, I'm not saying that I'm religious or anything, but I just actually like the content of the book. The story of Job where he was really depressed and he went through this whole entire depression and then what he did to come out of that. I mean those are all very applicable things for me in my life now. I'm not a big organized religion guy, but I mean if the Bible is the most read book in the entire world, there must be something coming out of it. So I wanted to try and get my bits and pieces out of it and I've just noticed after reading it, it's very similar to a lot of the new things that we talk about. So that's why I'm like it. Stefan: Yeah, well it's so interesting. It's incredible. I did a bit of a study on it and my book Hard Times and what it is is it's the base values of our civilization. Our laws come from those value. Our entire framework comes from there. So whether you're religious or not, it's super important. And you know what else I think is really cool about the Bible. I was lecturing my secretary the other day about how to live her life as old men like me do. And I said, "Look, the Bible, you got to study it because they've already tried everything. They tried it all for 5,000 years. 'Cause there's the Old Testament, there's the New Testament. They tried it. They tried all the bullshit we're doing now. If you look at Sodom and Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, they already did this shit. They already did it, and they move on exactly how it happened or how things went down and they wrote down all the problems. So you know in advance, if you just read that thing, you can see the future because it's 5,000 years. Stefan: And I think it's so interesting how every 70 or 80 years, we always think we're smarter than the past. You know, oh, let's try out communism this time, or let's try out something that clearly does. Try socialism out I know. Yeah. Let's try out socialism. And when you read back on that text, whether it's history or not history, it's amazing because all the answers are in there. Paul: It is. Stefan: And the Bible means the book. It's the original book so. Paul: It is, I mean, I think if we don't learn from history, we're destined to repeat it right? That's the quote, right? Stefan: Right. Yeah it's money. All right, awesome. Well next question here, Paul. Talking about the young people again. This is one of my favorite questions I ask this absolutely everybody. 100% of the people on this show get this question. Come back to the young people, the millennials. What do think is the number one thing that the young people today need to succeed in this world? Paul: We just talked about him. Grit. I mean you just need to, I mean there's always going to be challenges. You need to be able to have heart and critic and desire and quite frankly you need balls man. This world is tough. So regardless if you want them to be successful, you've got to have balls. Stefan: Big massive bowling ball balls. Paul: I mean, yeah, absolutely. If you want to be anything you got to have balls 'cause the opposition to be successful is so, so stiff. I mean you just have to have the biggest pair of balls ever so. Stefan: I'm giving you a gong for that one, boom. Yeah, some big balls, big ovaries, whatever you're running with there. Awesome. Paul, how can people get in touch with you man, if they want to know more about you? Paul: Sure. I have a personal website, paulmichaeldavid.com and my Instagram handle is Paul Michael David. Those are the two best ways you can reach out to me. Our company website is identifiedtalent.com. Stefan: Awesome. Really appreciate having you in the show Paul. Respect the Grind, man. Yeah, we'll have to have you on again. I thought we had a really great chat today and I really appreciate you and your story, man. Bless you. Paul: Yeah, bless you too, man. Happy holidays brother. Stefan: You too. Bye, bye.  

In the series debut, Dan Zappulla (our narrator) tells us about the story behind his father-in-law Dr. John Parker's mysterious death. On July 3, 2015, Dr. Parker was found dead at his desk in Mashpee, Massachusetts. The police immediately ruled it a suicide...but why? Dan thinks there's more to the story, and he needs your help. Website: www.parkerpodcast.com Twitter: www.twitter.com/parkerpodcast Facebook: www.facebook.com/parkerpodcast MAIN CAST Dan Zappulla as Himself Jen Zappulla as Rachel Keith Morris as Dr. John Parker Erika Sanderson as Nora Kyle Akers as Reporters 1 & 2 Barbara Zappulla as Jean Frank Zappulla as Paul For more information on our cast members, please visit www.parkerpodcast.com. 

Faith acts on the invisible. II Corinthians 5:7 declares of Christians like minded with the apostle Paul: “For we walk by faith, not by sight.” later in the same section he notes: “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” This second reality: The fact of final judgement, is the “invisible”, yet controlling factor in the believer's life, that moves/motivates him in a unique way. Hebrews also affirms faith in these terms as we have summarized by the phrase: “believing in and acting on the power and promises of God.” In the example of Moses in Hebrews 11, our author declares of him (27), that Moses acted... “as seeing Him who is invisible.” The promises and power of God are not always immediately obvious or tangible to us. They are in many ways “invisible”, yet to be fulfilled, or yet to be demonstrated in their fullest measure. Heb 11 exhorts us to live in light of them just the same, following in the footsteps of the great saints of old who looked to Jesus Christ, the – as yet to be revealed in the flesh – Messiah and Savior of His people...