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In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Brian Schwam to discuss how Interest Charge Domestic International Sales Corporations (IC-DISCs) can help businesses save on taxes. With over 35 years of experience, Brian shares how IC-DISC has evolved since 1972 and why it remains a valuable tool for U.S. exporters. He explains how businesses, particularly in the aerospace industry's Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) sector, can take advantage of this incentive to improve their financial position. We walk through a hypothetical example to illustrate how an exporting business could benefit from IC-DISC. Brian explains how companies involved in manufacturing, repairing, or trading parts can qualify and why many eligible businesses overlook this opportunity. We also discuss the annual MRO conference in Atlanta, where industry professionals gather to share insights and best practices. This event highlights the ongoing impact of IC-DISC within the aerospace sector and beyond. Despite the clear benefits, many businesses hesitate to implement IC-DISC due to a lack of awareness or expertise. Brian talks about how our firm partners with CPA firms to integrate IC-DISCs into existing tax processes, making it easier for businesses to take advantage of these savings. He also highlights the underutilization of IC-DISC and why more companies should consider it as part of their tax strategy. We wrap up by discussing the upcoming MRO America's Conference in Atlanta, where exporting aviation maintenance companies can connect and learn more about IC-DISC applications. Whether you're new to IC-DISC or looking to refine your approach, this conversation provides useful insights for businesses considering this tax-saving opportunity.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I discuss the intricacies and benefits of Interest Charge Domestic International Sales Corporations (IC-DISC) with tax attorney Brian Schwam, who has over 35 years of experience in the field. We explore the historical context of IC-DISC, including its origins in 1972 and the significant changes it underwent following international scrutiny and U.S. tax reforms, such as the 2003 Bush tax cuts and the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Brian provides insights into how IC-DISC can serve as a valuable tax incentive for U.S. exporters, particularly those in the aerospace industry's Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) sector. Through a detailed hypothetical example, we illustrate how companies can leverage IC-DISC to maximize export profits, highlighting specific benefits for pass-through entities and closely held C corporations. We address common apprehensions businesses face regarding IC-DISC implementation and discuss how collaboration with CPA firms can facilitate a seamless integration into existing tax processes. Despite the clear benefits, IC-DISC remains underutilized, and we emphasize the potential missed opportunities for businesses not taking advantage of this tax-saving strategy. The episode also covers upcoming industry events, such as the annual MRO conference in Atlanta and the ICDISC Alliance Conference, which offer valuable networking and professional growth opportunities.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Brian Schwam (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-schwam-b6026a3/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About WTP Advisors GUEST Brian SchwamAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, brian, welcome to the podcast. Brian: Thanks, dave, good to be here. Dave: So where on planet Earth are you calling in from today? It's hard to tell by looking at your background. Brian: Outer space. I am in the sunny South Florida. Dave: Okay. Brian: Breezy, south Florida, okay. Dave: Now are you a native of Florida. Brian: I am not a native of Florida. I spent 50 years of my life in the upper Midwest in Wisconsin. Okay, I had to move to Sunbelt. Dave: Okay, Now were you educated in the Midwest then too. Brian: I was. I'm a proud alum of the University of Wisconsin, both for an undergraduate degree in accounting and also my JD from the law school Okay. Dave: So you've and I take it and I've known you a while, so I think that's been several decades ago that your career was started. Is that about right? Brian: Several would be a good good approximation. Yes, I've been at this for 38 years. I know it doesn't look like it, right, okay? Dave: And so, and how long have you been involved in ICDISC? Then Most of that time 38 years, oh, 38 years in ICDISC. Then most of that time, 38 years, oh, 38 years in the disc, wow, yeah. So how does that do you know? Do you have any way to quantify that? Like how many you know ICDISC returns you've, you know, signed or reviewed or prepared, or Boy, it's a big number, dave. Brian: It's probably five figures. Okay, probably, so you know, somewhere north of 10,000 for sure. Okay, over that time period. Dave: Well, and that is why I'm glad that you are one of the founding members of the IC Disc Alliance with me that when I had a chance to partner up with you and some of your team when we created the IC Disc Alliance, I was really excited because in my book I pretty much knew all the players in the IC Disc space and once the famous Neil Block retired after 50 years to me you were without peer in the IC Disc space. Brian: So I really enjoyed collaborating with you through the years here in the ICDISC space, so I really enjoyed collaborating with you through the years. Dave: Thank, you for that, Dave. I hope to be able to follow Neil into that 50-year stratosphere. Yeah, that's big shoes to follow. So let's just talk a bit about the ICDISC. What the heck is it? Why does everyone use that silly acronym? Brian: Because what it really stands for is a mouthful. Dave: Okay. Brian: Discharged Domestic International Sales Corporation and that is what the ICDISC stands for, short right ICDISC. And I don't know if we'll get into. I'll get into what the IC stands for and everything. But basically this is an export incentive that's been in the Internal Revenue Code since 1972. Okay, in various forms. Initially it was an export incentive that just about any company could use, that was exporting goods that were manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US. It came under some fire from our trading partners and in 1984, it was transformed into the ICDISC. It started out just as the DISC in 1972 for the Boston International Sales Corporation and it, like I said, came under scrutiny. Our trading partners said hey, you're a, you can't have an exemption from income because you're not. You know you tax things differently in your country. This flies in the face of the other incentives you give your taxpayers. So they changed it into the ICDIS, which made it into, instead of a permanent tax savings, at least on its face, into a temporary savings where, to the extent a taxpayer saved tax and deferred income from tax, they were required to pay an interest charge to the IRS on that deferred tax. Hence the IC. Dave: Okay, okay. Brian: That rate changes every year. It's based on the one-year average TBLO rate as of September 30th annually. And at the same time they instituted something called the Foreign Sales Corporation, which was widely used by thousands of companies, and that came under attack and eventually became the extraterritorial income exclusion which was immediately attacked and eventually, a couple of years later, it just went away. In the meantime, the disk floundered for quite a number of years. In fact, in the year 2000 there were only 787 disks in existence. Dave: Wow, it seems like a shockingly small number. Brian: Well, the tax laws weren't real conducive to benefiting from the disk at that time. Then, in 2003, the Bush tax cuts brought in the concept of qualified dividend income and it took the disk off of life support and really put it on robust territory for pass-through entities, because they could now, to the extent that they could qualify and we'll get into that, to the extent they could qualify and to the extent that they could benefit it provided a 20% rate benefit between ordinary income and qualified dividend income, so it was a significant savings. Now that's been whittled away over time, where it's been reduced here and there. Various tax law changes and probably the largest or the next biggest reduction came in in 2017 with the Trump tax bill, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which reduced the rate on qualified income on non-qualified income. So it reduced the rate on S-corp income partnership income in an individual's tax return to a 29.6% level, and so now the spread between the qualified dividend rate and the ordinary rate just isn't as great as it used to be. It's approaching 6%. So where it used to be 20, then it went to 15, and now it's 6. But it's still a permanent savings for these past three entities and it's not something that they should ignore, because it can save significant taxes, depending upon the level of export activity. Dave: Okay, and now to be clear, depending on a company-specific fact pattern, that spread could be greater. Right For a pass-through. It could be as high as what like? Brian: 13% or so For a pass-through it could be as high as what like, 13% or so For a pass-through business. Dave: It could be as high as 13.2%, okay, but in general we see that it and it could even be somewhere between that, depending on. Brian: Anywhere in between 5.8 and 13.2. Dave: And our experience has been that most companies tend to gravitate more toward the lower end of the savings than the higher end. Brian: Yes. Dave: Yes, okay. Now what about for a C-Corp? Brian: C-Corp is a different animal. Okay, a C-Corp can't use an disc to pay deductible dividends to its owners if it's a closely held C corp. This is not something that a public company can benefit from. But if a closely held business C corp is paying dividends to its shareholders and would like to be able to deduct those payments, rather than not being able to deduct those payments, using an ICDIS can transform the dividend into a deductible dividend. Now, it doesn't save the shareholders any tax, because they're paying tax on the dividend regardless of where it comes from, but it would eliminate the corporate level tax on the C corporation, so that benefit could be as high as 21%. Dave: Okay. Brian: Okay, another manner in which certain C corporations use the disc is to fund bonuses for shareholders and key employees, and then that saves the shareholders 17% tax the difference between a tax on a wage and a tax on a dividend, qualified dividend. So that's a 17% savings for the shareholder. In that case the C-Corp doesn't save any tax. They're getting a deduction either way wages or commission to the disk. And now that I've mentioned the word commission, that's probably a good segue into how does a disk earn income? Yeah, and what is its income? So most discs are what we call commission discs. They earn a commission when a operating business that's related to that disc makes an export sale of qualified export property. So let's dig down into that first. What's qualified export property? Well, that's property that has been manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US. So if I'm manufacturing in Mexico or Canada or China and I'm simply selling what I've made in those other countries, you know the disc is not something that's going to benefit that type of a business. Dave: Okay. Brian: It is there to spur US manufacturing, create US jobs, right in line with the America First proposition that's headlining Washington in 2025. Dave: Okay. Brian: So it should be on safe ground, everything that's going on there. So if a company has property that's been manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US and they sell it for export outside the United States and not to a US possession, then that sale can potentially generate an ICDIS commission that would be paid to the ICDIS. And keep in mind this ICDISC is not an entity that the outside world sees or understands or knows about. It's simply an entity that does business, if you will, internally with the operating company, so customers don't know about it. It's really transparent to the world. It's just there to help US exporters save tax. Dave: Okay, it's just there to help US exporters save tax. Okay, and the logistics of it. Like say a company has just for simple math, let's say they have $10 million of export, of qualified export revenue, and the ICDIS commission that's calculated to say 10% of that. Brian: Okay. Dave: So 10% of that would be a million dollars, and so walk me through kind of the that's correct and it accrues the deduction, assuming it's not a cash basis taxpayer. Brian: It accrues that deduction at the end of the year, the DISC accrues the income at the end of the year and then by statute the DISC does not pay income tax. So now we've gotten a deduction on one side, we have non-taxable income on the other side and then when the disc pays a dividend to its owners, that becomes a qualified dividend and is taxed at a lower rate. Dave: Okay, so then, effectively, that million dollars gets reclassified from being taxed at ordinary dividend rates to qualified dividend rates. Brian: From ordinary income rates to qualified dividend rates. Dave: yes, Yep, thank you for that. And where that shows up for a pass-through is going to be on the individual shareholders, k-1, right. That box up near the top that shows ordinary taxable income would basically go down. Let's say there was one shareholder, that number goes down by a million dollars. And then there's a box further down on the K-1 for qualified dividend income and that's where the number's being shifted to right. Brian: Right. Assuming the disc is owned by the operating company, which most of the time it is in the pass-through business context, then the ordinary income gets reduced on the K-1 and the dividend income will increase on the K-1, not necessarily in the same year, but that will be the result over time. Dave: And then that tax savings then will show up on the individual shareholders. 1040, right, because their ordinary income line is a million dollars less. The qualified dividend income line is a million dollars more, and that's where that arbitrage. Brian: They pay less tax if they're getting a distribution from the company to cover their taxes, which is often the case, the company doesn't have to distribute as much cash, therefore increasing the working capital of the business. Dave: Okay, well, thank you. Thank you for that. Now, what I want to drill down into a little more today is looking at the aerospace industry, specifically what's called the MRO space in aerospace. Do you know what MRO stands for? Brian: I believe, I do, I believe maintenance, repair and overhaul. Dave: That's my understanding as well. Brian: That's a significant area in the aviation space. Dave: yes, Okay, and I believe that there's a big conference in Atlanta in April with like something like 17,000 expected attendees. Brian: Yeah, just a small gathering. Dave: A small gathering. Brian: For sure. Yes, that's my understanding as well. In fact, I'll be there. Dave: Yeah, I believe we'll both be there, yeah we'll both be there A few of our colleagues. Brian: Yeah, so it's a one a year significant gathering of companies that operate in this MRO space, supporting airlines and other aviation companies, and basically MRO is important because it keeps planes able to fly. Yeah, and we actually have a booth there. Dave: Yeah, and we actually have a booth there. 1818 BC and it makes it sound like it's a date from a long time ago. But yeah, we'll be there and this will be our first year in attendance or exhibiting. And this has come from, in recent years, I'd say, a big ramp up in the number of MRO companies who we are helping with their IC disk. Is that right? Brian: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, one of the sponsors of the conference was a company I was doing some work with and I asked them if he thought it would be a good idea for us to attend, and it was a resounding absolutely that he thought that we could meet a lot of companies that could benefit from this ICDISC similar to his company. Dave: Okay. What are the elements in the MRO space or the characteristics of the companies that make them a good fit for the ICDISC, because my understanding is it's probably only one out of a hundred of like all the registered corporations in the US are really a fit for the disc. Brian: Yeah, so it takes a specific fact pattern to really benefit. So the companies in the service side of the business so let's say they're carpet cleaners or something to that nature they're not going to be able to benefit from the disk. But let's say it's a repair center and airlines will ship in parts to the repair center because they've worn out and they need it. They need a replacement part so that they can fly this plane. So what happens is maybe the repair center takes their part and repairs it, but they previously repaired another part that's identical and then to the customer and that plane gets back in the air right away. So in that scenario, even though it's a different part that's going back out versus what was coming in, that type of activity qualifies as long as what they're doing qualifies as manufacturing and that repair is occurring in the US. Dave: Okay. Brian: Then that type of a company could definitely benefit Other companies. I don't want to use this term, but it's kind of like horse trading. Sometimes companies will buy a surplus of parts, knowing that eventually they're going to be used by somebody and they hang on to these parts, or they find them from somebody who says I don't want these parts anymore, I haven't been able to sell them. So they take a flyer, they take a risk and they buy these parts and they hang on to them and maybe they sell them at a significant profit and maybe they don't. But there's that space as well that can benefit from the disc, and there's some misconception out there that some of the companies that are similar to what I just described can't benefit from a disc, and so, for example, if parts are obtained outside the US, they stay outside the US. They stay outside the US and they're repaired, recertified and resold. Those aren't going to qualify for the ICBITS. But sometimes parts are acquired outside the US and they're brought into the US, they're repaired, put it back into inventory in the US and then sold for export, and that activity does qualify for the ICs, and so it's very important to know where this refurbishment or remanufacturing is taking place. Dave: Okay and yeah, and there's a US content piece to it, right, like if they buy a part from China and all they do is they just put a little lubricant on it and throw it in a box. Brian: that may not qualify and then they export it. The test is what's the customer's value when that part comes into the US. So if it's a burned out hot engine part, for example, yeah there's no value or very little value and it comes into the US, its customers value is close to zero. It gets repaired, it's going to easily meet the content test and it's easily going to be considered manufactured in the US. It's rare, I think, that we'll find that somebody will buy a new part from outside the US just to inventory it here for export. Dave: Okay, yeah, because there's that it's a 50% US content test, right which? Is also, I think confusing on the surface if you don't really dive down into the rules, right, I mean, the layperson may find it. Brian: How do you know what's 50% US content? Well, the cost of good, I mean. Think of it the other way. The foreign content can't be more than 50%. And the foreign content is the cost, the customs value when it was imported. So if I'm selling something for $100, I imported it for as much as $49.99. That's going to qualify as long as I did something, you know, remanufactured it once it got to the US and once it got to the plus, more often than not, I think the value of those things coming in because they're used and worn and damaged parts, they're going to have a low customs valuation where there'll be no problem meeting that content. Dave: Okay, I can see that. Well, I find and my listeners tell me they really like kind of case studies, little mini of case studies, little mini, you know, client case studies On an anonymous basis. Do you have an example or two of some of the types of companies we've worked with, just to give people a flavor of them and, again, you know, being anonymous to you know? What company it is, but just a sense of like the sense of the size of the company, what the benefit might have been. Brian: The size is sort of across the board, right. So some of them are someone on the smaller side. They might have export sales between $5 and $10 million, and then some of them might have export sales of $100 million. It all depends on the size of their business and the benefits are kind of all over the map. Because we don't just do a simple calculation of the benefits. And the reason we don't is because in this industry what we find is there's a lot of margin variability in the companies that are exporting, and then a transaction-by-transaction analysis of the disk commission is what makes the most sense. That allows us to benefit from the margin variability, allows them to benefit from a higher disk commission and obviously then they're going to save more tax. And in some cases the commission grows by 10x by using the T by T. Sometimes it's two or three x, sometimes it's. You know, I've seen you know where it would have been zero because there was an overall loss in the company, but we were able to get a significant discommission with a T by T approach. So it's hard to pinpoint an exact number, but generally speaking it's 15 to 20, you know the commission ends up being 15 to 20% of sales. And if you look at the statutes, one of the statutes says oh, the commission can be 4% of sales, and another implies that it could be anywhere from 4% to 10%, but we generally see in this industry at least 15% on average. It's significantly higher. Dave: Yeah, and I'd like to drill down into that because I tell, and based on my understanding, we may manage more IC disks than any other organization of the country. I mean we I think our number is somewhere north of 500 companies now that we're helping out, and when I'm having these conversations, you know. So I'm, as you know, I'm more focused on the sales side. You know, and you and your team are more focused kind of on the technical aspect of producing these returns, and what I tell people is that our real value isn't being able to produce an IC disk return. Our value is the incremental benefit that the transaction by transaction calculation yields. That the transaction by transaction calculation yields. Because you know just about any any cpa firm you know most of them their software includes the ic disk return. You know, if they just go do a four percent calculation, it's a, you know, reasonably straightforward calculation. But we find that you know they're capturing only a fraction of the total benefit. Brian: That's true, and while I've seen a good number of interesting looking disc returns, I tend to agree that if you follow the directions, anybody can probably prepare a disc return. We do that as well. That's not where we add the most value. Where we add the most value, adding the value comes in unlocking the highest commission possible so that the tax savings are as great as possible. Yeah, and a lot of businesses that are high margin I'm sorry, low margin high volume businesses. When you look at the disc, on its face it looks like oh, there's not much benefit here, we're only making 2% or 3% of sales on our bottom line. So our disc commission would be 2% or 3% of sales. But, like I said, with the transactional approach, if the commission approach is 15%, well now we've taken the company into a tax loss which could potentially save additional taxes for the owners over and above that 5.8%, because now we're offsetting that loss against other income wages, interest, et cetera and being taxed just on the qualified dividend income of the disc. And so you can't just look at the overall margin or overall profitability of the company and project what that, what it's going to look like, Because they vary all over the place. Dave: Based on this transactional approach, yeah, and I would like to talk a bit about. Oftentimes, when I'm talking to a company that's considering a disk, oftentimes they've never even heard of it. Their CPA firm may not have even mentioned the idea. And they'll say, and they'll ask me hey, does this mean my CPA, you know, screwed up by not telling me about it. In my response, you know I try to be generous and I explain it that, look, you know, in our experience only about one out of 100 companies are a candidate. And so let's just say you have a large local CPA firm and they have 100, you know midsize corporate clients. Statistically we find that only one of them, you know, would be a fit for the disk. And your experience may be a little different, you know, feel free to correct me. And so when you think about it from the CPA's perspective, if there's a special part of the tax code and they only have one client that benefits, it's a difficult economic dynamic for the CPA firm to invest in a whole team and expertise to serve one client, right? Isn't that like part of the challenge that the and I know you've worked at a number of large CPA firms Is my understanding correct? That's part of the problem is just their clientele. There aren't enough of them. That makes it worth doing yeah. Brian: Yeah, I think that's a fair characterization. I might phrase it a little bit differently. I mean, there are thousands of CPA firms and they're all excellent generalists. This is not an area where you can be a generalist. Cpa firms often outsource R&D, tax credit work, cost segregation work. This, to me, falls right in that same category. You don't want to dabble in this, and if you're not sure what you're doing, you can get you and your client in trouble. Have good intentions, but if you don't execute it properly, it can be more of a headache than it's worth. And so, like most people, I think people gravitate towards what they know and understand, and things that they don't know and understand can look and sound scary. Dave: Yeah. Brian: So it's like, oh my God, an IC disc. I've never heard of that. I'm not sure I can bring that to my client because I don't really know what I'm doing. Well, I wish I knew somebody I could call to him. He's not a competitor right who could help me through this and help my client through this, and so that's really one of the reasons why we exist, because, as you stated, you don't want it to be a competitor that you call, and so, because we are so hyper focused on what we do and we don't do the things that I'll call the cpa's generalists, that the generalists do, we're an excellent partner because we're not looking to take away anybody's tax return or any of the other type of work that the CPA might be doing for that client. We just want to play in our space. Dave: Yeah, sometimes I'm sorry. Sometimes you know clients or potential clients will say, yeah, but you know our CPA firm does. You know all of our work. It's a one-stop shop thing and I'm afraid having you do the disc return and then doing the corporate return yeah, but our CPA firm does all of our work, it's a one-stop shop thing and I'm afraid having you do the disc return and then doing the corporate return it's just going to be a nightmare for you all to coordinate your efforts. It just sounds like too much trouble. What would your response be to that? Brian: My response is I work with over 500 companies. Generally we do the disk work for those companies. The regular mainstream CPA does everything else. We coordinate our work with that CPA and it's never a problem. We say, look, we're going to need X number of days to turn this around, so please have a draft of the operating company return by a particular date, and then they work towards that date. They give us the return, we get data from the company and we turn the number around so they can finish their tax return and then we go ahead and finish the disc return and I would say 99.9% of the time it works like we're all part of the same thing. Dave: Yeah, because really the CPA they prepare that final draft corporate return. They then pull two numbers from the disk return that goes into the corporate return and then they're done, basically right. Brian: And they're done and they can go ahead and finish up their disk return, I mean their operating company return and their state returns and everything. And then we just have to get the disc return done. And sometimes you know they file their tax return in april and you know the disc returns aren't due till september. So one might say, oh, you could just sit on them until september. But you know, we try to get them done at the same time. Sure sure Everybody can rest easy. But I mean we think of ourselves as a bolt-on resource to that CPA firm while we're working with that and we work with probably 50 to 75 CPA firms around the country in that role- yeah. It works well. I mean, you can talk to any one of them about what it's like to work with us, and I'm sure you'd get a glowing recommendation for how we work with them and for their clients. Dave: Yeah, no, I'm with you. So, as we're nearing the end here, the other thing that people find interesting you'd mentioned in 2003, there were 700 IC disks under 1,000. Yeah, 787. And then, according, if my recollection is correct, the most recent IRS stats that updated that were published, I think, in 2010. And I believe in 2010, there were like 2000 disks. Brian: Yeah, something like 1926. Okay, To be exact, and that number I'm sure has grown dramatically since then. I would guess there's somewhere between eight and 10,000 disks out there now. Okay, yeah. Dave: Yeah, now what's interesting? This is what people find interesting. I believe there's about 50 million business organization, you know business entities in the country, and so let's just assume that's the number, 50 million. Brian: I mean it's tens of millions. Dave: I'm certain of that. For some reason, I think it's 50 million. Does that sound reasonable? Brian: It does so let's think it's 50 million, does that? Dave: sound reasonable. It does. So let's say it's 50 million and on your average, you know we find around one out of a hundred. You know, maybe one out of 200 companies are fit for the disc. So if we run through the math, you know one percent of 50 million, I believe, is 500, 000. You know approximate companies that we think would benefit from a disc. Yet most recent stats, there's only 2000, you know, and maybe it's 4,000, 6,000, you know. Even, let's say it's 10,000 that exists now. So if you divide 10,000 by 500,000, what is that? Like 2%, I think, of the projected eligible company actually have a disc yeah, and people can't. They always are surprised by that and I usually tell them it might. And tell me if your numbers are consistent. I say about 100. One out of 100 benefit or could benefit. The ones who could benefit 90 percent of them have never heard of the disc, maybe 95%, and the 5% of the 1% who have heard of it, even once they hear about it, they usually haven't implemented it. Brian: Right. Then there's a percent that have implemented it. They're not getting out of it what they can. Dave: Right right. Brian: So it's so. There's a lot of missed opportunities by taxpayers and everyone's always trying to save some taxes. It helps fun, you know. It might help hire another employee might help, you know, if the savings are moderate and it's 50, 6070, 1000 of tax savings that still could pay for an employee to come work at the company. Why do? Dave: you think that utilization is so low? I mean because it'd be shocking if only 2% of the companies who did research and development took advantage of the RMD tax credit. Brian: I think it's just not well known. I mean it's very esoteric, it's been in the tax code for ages and ages and it just doesn't you. You know, there were so many years where it just wasn't relevant when you think that it's not something people think about. And then if you know, if you're a small exporter and you're exporting a half a million dollars a year a million dollars a year unfortunately it probably doesn't benefit you to have a disc and so maybe someone will look at it whether that size and they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't benefit you to have a disk and so maybe someone will look at it whether that size and they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't work. And then they grow and they forget that it might work once they've grown. So once a company hits about three million of export sales really should look at it again, because that's where it starts to have economic relevance that's where it starts to have economic relevance. Dave: Do you think some of it could be that? I mean, in general, public companies don't use disks, right? Brian: They just simply don't. Dave: Okay, and so I've found that oftentimes small to mid-sized privately held companies receive a lot of their sophisticated business knowledge from their Fortune 500 suppliers or clients. You know they'll hear from them about something and you know, like the payroll protection program during COVID, you know I suspect some of those might have heard about that from you know some of their large customers. Maybe that's not a good example, but you know that could be another reason. Right, there's just a dearth of knowledge that the CPAs aren't focused on it because the economics don't make sense. The large sophisticated public suppliers and clients don't use it, so they don't hear about it from them. Right, it's not really in the news, it's just. It just kind of flies below the radar screen, doesn't it? Brian: It definitely does, and that's certainly a reason why it's not as utilized as it probably could be. Dave: Yeah, and it seems like you know most of our, you know virtually all of our clients come as a referral from either an existing client or an advisor who we've worked with other clients you know, like a CPA or attorney or banker. So yeah, it's just a yeah, even though you know the podcast is called the Icy Disc Show. I don't get the sense that I'm ever going to. You know, reach Joe Rogan's audience size. It just seems to kind of fly below the radar screen. Brian: Yeah, and the potential audience is probably a little smaller than Joe's. Dave: Probably Well. So the last thing, the other thing people tell me they're surprised about the first year of the disk return. When they set up a disk is to get everything done. And we tell them the disk return's ready and they say, super good, and e-file it for me, like the CPA does the corporate and personal returns. And what is our response when they tell us to go e-file it for them? Brian: The response is unfortunately, the IRS doesn't provide for e-filing of disk returns and we'll need to send you a paper return. You're going to need to sign it and file it with the IRS and the unfortunate thing there is gosh, I don't know what percent of the time, but it's a growing percentage of the time the IRS loses the return Right and then sends a notice saying, hey, we never filed or whatever. And some of these disk returns are quite large. The fact that they because when you do the transaction by transaction analysis, there's a lot of paper that gets produced and filed and it's shocking to me that the IRS would lose those what they do. Dave: So it's interesting what they do. So it's interesting. I like to say that not only does the ICDISC fly under the radar screen of most everything, it even, in some ways, it's almost like it flies under the radar screen of the IRS itself. Brian: Yeah, and they put some things in place with regard to the ICDISC in 1984 and have never changed it. For example, if you're in the situation where you have to pay interest on deferred tax, which often occurs. First of all, a lot of times taxpayers don't realize it and they don't do it. Secondly, if they do it. It's so antiquated that the instructions to the form where you calculate the interest it says please staple a check to this form and mail it in. I mean, who does that in 2020, right? Nobody. People, businesses prefer to do things electronically to avoid checks being stolen, fraudulent activity, so on and so forth. But here the IRS is saying staple a check to this form and mail it to Kansas City, missouri. Dave: Yeah, and I guess it kind of makes sense that you know if there's only a few thousand of these disks in existence. In the same way, you can't expect the CPA firms to make it a heavy focus, I suppose even the IRS. You know there's a hundred other tax incentives or a thousand other tax incentives that are more highly utilized that you know they maybe are spending their time on. Brian: Yeah, as I like to say, the people at the IRS that understood the disc were working there in the 70s and 80s, OK, and they're long retired. Yeah, and they're long retired. There's really not a lot of bodies at the IRS that understand the DISC and certainly when you're doing a transaction by transaction study and calculating the commission on each individual transaction, there's nobody there that understands that. Dave: Nobody Well, and it's kind of the same thing outside the IRS, right? Nobody Well, and it's kind of the same thing outside the IRS, right? I mean I have this joke that nobody makes partner at a big four firm being the IC disk expert. Oh, that's true, so it even especially nowadays. Yeah, and so it seems like like the average age of IC disks experts is about the same as the average age of the average Fortran computer language programmer. It just seems like you know new people are not coming into the disk and there's just a dearth of knowledge all around. Brian: Right, right. And I myself learned COBOL, which is a choice between Fortran and COBOL, when I was in business school, both equally non-usable. Dave: Is it part of that? Because since the disk came on in 1972, it seems like since 1973, people have been talking about the IC disk going away. So is that maybe part of it? People think, well, why should I learn something if it's going away? Brian: Maybe part of it. People think, well, why should I learn something if it's going away? There's always been a fear that it's either going to go away or that there's a technical correction coming that the disk dividend is not a qualified dividend. But the bottom line is politically, I just don't see that happening. Dave: It stands for too many things that are positive for the US Job creation export sales for too many things that are positive for the US Job creation, export sales, us companies being more competitive in the global market. Brian: So it doesn't really lend itself to be repealed. What can be repealed are some of the tax rates. Some of the tax rates can change and that can change the benefits of the disc. The concept of the disc itself and what it stands for really is very consistent with our country. Dave: Yeah, wow, I can't believe how the time has flown by, brian. Is there anything else that you want to mention about the IC disc or the MRO industry? Brian: No, I can't think of anything specifically other than I'm looking forward to being there and meeting many of the attendees and other exhibitors that are there and spending some time with you and our colleagues in Atlanta. Dave: Yeah, it will be fun. So it's the ICDISC Alliance. If you want to look us up on the website for the conference or stop by 1818BC. We also have a LinkedIn page for the ICDISC Alliance, and so I'd love to meet with any of you who are going to be at the conference. Awesome, well, thank you very much for your time, Brian. This has been really useful. Brian: You're welcome. You're very welcome. Special Guest: Brian Schwam.

Due to overwhelming demand (>15x applications:slots), we are closing CFPs for AI Engineer Summit NYC today. Last call! Thanks, we'll be reaching out to all shortly!The world's top AI blogger and friend of every pod, Simon Willison, dropped a monster 2024 recap: Things we learned about LLMs in 2024. Brian of the excellent TechMeme Ride Home pinged us for a connection and a special crossover episode, our first in 2025. The target audience for this podcast is a tech-literate, but non-technical one. You can see Simon's notes for AI Engineers in his World's Fair Keynote.Timestamp* 00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome* 01:06 State of AI in 2025* 01:43 Advancements in AI Models* 03:59 Cost Efficiency in AI* 06:16 Challenges and Competition in AI* 17:15 AI Agents and Their Limitations* 26:12 Multimodal AI and Future Prospects* 35:29 Exploring Video Avatar Companies* 36:24 AI Influencers and Their Future* 37:12 Simplifying Content Creation with AI* 38:30 The Importance of Credibility in AI* 41:36 The Future of LLM User Interfaces* 48:58 Local LLMs: A Growing Interest* 01:07:22 AI Wearables: The Next Big Thing* 01:10:16 Wrapping Up and Final ThoughtsTranscript[00:00:00] Introduction and Guest Welcome[00:00:00] Brian: Welcome to the first bonus episode of the Tech Meme Write Home for the year 2025. I'm your host as always, Brian McCullough. Listeners to the pod over the last year know that I have made a habit of quoting from Simon Willison when new stuff happens in AI from his blog. Simon has been, become a go to for many folks in terms of, you know, Analyzing things, criticizing things in the AI space.[00:00:33] Brian: I've wanted to talk to you for a long time, Simon. So thank you for coming on the show. No, it's a privilege to be here. And the person that made this connection happen is our friend Swyx, who has been on the show back, even going back to the, the Twitter Spaces days but also an AI guru in, in their own right Swyx, thanks for coming on the show also.[00:00:54] swyx (2): Thanks. I'm happy to be on and have been a regular listener, so just happy to [00:01:00] contribute as well.[00:01:00] Brian: And a good friend of the pod, as they say. Alright, let's go right into it.[00:01:06] State of AI in 2025[00:01:06] Brian: Simon, I'm going to do the most unfair, broad question first, so let's get it out of the way. The year 2025. Broadly, what is the state of AI as we begin this year?[00:01:20] Brian: Whatever you want to say, I don't want to lead the witness.[00:01:22] Simon: Wow. So many things, right? I mean, the big thing is everything's got really good and fast and cheap. Like, that was the trend throughout all of 2024. The good models got so much cheaper, they got so much faster, they got multimodal, right? The image stuff isn't even a surprise anymore.[00:01:39] Simon: They're growing video, all of that kind of stuff. So that's all really exciting.[00:01:43] Advancements in AI Models[00:01:43] Simon: At the same time, they didn't get massively better than GPT 4, which was a bit of a surprise. So that's sort of one of the open questions is, are we going to see huge, but I kind of feel like that's a bit of a distraction because GPT 4, but way cheaper, much larger context lengths, and it [00:02:00] can do multimodal.[00:02:01] Simon: is better, right? That's a better model, even if it's not.[00:02:05] Brian: What people were expecting or hoping, maybe not expecting is not the right word, but hoping that we would see another step change, right? Right. From like GPT 2 to 3 to 4, we were expecting or hoping that maybe we were going to see the next evolution in that sort of, yeah.[00:02:21] Brian: We[00:02:21] Simon: did see that, but not in the way we expected. We thought the model was just going to get smarter, and instead we got. Massive drops in, drops in price. We got all of these new capabilities. You can talk to the things now, right? They can do simulated audio input, all of that kind of stuff. And so it's kind of, it's interesting to me that the models improved in all of these ways we weren't necessarily expecting.[00:02:43] Simon: I didn't know it would be able to do an impersonation of Santa Claus, like a, you know, Talked to it through my phone and show it what I was seeing by the end of 2024. But yeah, we didn't get that GPT 5 step. And that's one of the big open questions is, is that actually just around the corner and we'll have a bunch of GPT 5 class models drop in the [00:03:00] next few months?[00:03:00] Simon: Or is there a limit?[00:03:03] Brian: If you were a betting man and wanted to put money on it, do you expect to see a phase change, step change in 2025?[00:03:11] Simon: I don't particularly for that, like, the models, but smarter. I think all of the trends we're seeing right now are going to keep on going, especially the inference time compute, right?[00:03:21] Simon: The trick that O1 and O3 are doing, which means that you can solve harder problems, but they cost more and it churns away for longer. I think that's going to happen because that's already proven to work. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe there will be a step change to a GPT 5 level, but honestly, I'd be completely happy if we got what we've got right now.[00:03:41] Simon: But cheaper and faster and more capabilities and longer contexts and so forth. That would be thrilling to me.[00:03:46] Brian: Digging into what you've just said one of the things that, by the way, I hope to link in the show notes to Simon's year end post about what, what things we learned about LLMs in 2024. Look for that in the show notes.[00:03:59] Cost Efficiency in AI[00:03:59] Brian: One of the things that you [00:04:00] did say that you alluded to even right there was that in the last year, you felt like the GPT 4 barrier was broken, like IE. Other models, even open source ones are now regularly matching sort of the state of the art.[00:04:13] Simon: Well, it's interesting, right? So the GPT 4 barrier was a year ago, the best available model was OpenAI's GPT 4 and nobody else had even come close to it.[00:04:22] Simon: And they'd been at the, in the lead for like nine months, right? That thing came out in what, February, March of, of 2023. And for the rest of 2023, nobody else came close. And so at the start of last year, like a year ago, the big question was, Why has nobody beaten them yet? Like, what do they know that the rest of the industry doesn't know?[00:04:40] Simon: And today, that I've counted 18 organizations other than GPT 4 who've put out a model which clearly beats that GPT 4 from a year ago thing. Like, maybe they're not better than GPT 4. 0, but that's, that, that, that barrier got completely smashed. And yeah, a few of those I've run on my laptop, which is wild to me.[00:04:59] Simon: Like, [00:05:00] it was very, very wild. It felt very clear to me a year ago that if you want GPT 4, you need a rack of 40, 000 GPUs just to run the thing. And that turned out not to be true. Like the, the, this is that big trend from last year of the models getting more efficient, cheaper to run, just as capable with smaller weights and so forth.[00:05:20] Simon: And I ran another GPT 4 model on my laptop this morning, right? Microsoft 5. 4 just came out. And that, if you look at the benchmarks, it's definitely, it's up there with GPT 4. 0. It's probably not as good when you actually get into the vibes of the thing, but it, it runs on my, it's a 14 gigabyte download and I can run it on a MacBook Pro.[00:05:38] Simon: Like who saw that coming? The most exciting, like the close of the year on Christmas day, just a few weeks ago, was when DeepSeek dropped their DeepSeek v3 model on Hugging Face without even a readme file. It was just like a giant binary blob that I can't run on my laptop. It's too big. But in all of the benchmarks, it's now by far the best available [00:06:00] open, open weights model.[00:06:01] Simon: Like it's, it's, it's beating the, the metalamas and so forth. And that was trained for five and a half million dollars, which is a tenth of the price that people thought it costs to train these things. So everything's trending smaller and faster and more efficient.[00:06:15] Brian: Well, okay.[00:06:16] Challenges and Competition in AI[00:06:16] Brian: I, I kind of was going to get to that later, but let's, let's combine this with what I was going to ask you next, which is, you know, you're talking, you know, Also in the piece about the LLM prices crashing, which I've even seen in projects that I'm working on, but explain Explain that to a general audience, because we hear all the time that LLMs are eye wateringly expensive to run, but what we're suggesting, and we'll come back to the cheap Chinese LLM, but first of all, for the end user, what you're suggesting is that we're starting to see the cost come down sort of in the traditional technology way of Of costs coming down over time,[00:06:49] Simon: yes, but very aggressively.[00:06:51] Simon: I mean, my favorite thing, the example here is if you look at GPT-3, so open AI's g, PT three, which was the best, a developed model in [00:07:00] 2022 and through most of 20 2023. That, the models that we have today, the OpenAI models are a hundred times cheaper. So there was a 100x drop in price for OpenAI from their best available model, like two and a half years ago to today.[00:07:13] Simon: And[00:07:14] Brian: just to be clear, not to train the model, but for the use of tokens and things. Exactly,[00:07:20] Simon: for running prompts through them. And then When you look at the, the really, the top tier model providers right now, I think, are OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta. And there are a bunch of others that I could list there as well.[00:07:32] Simon: Mistral are very good. The, the DeepSeq and Quen models have got great. There's a whole bunch of providers serving really good models. But even if you just look at the sort of big brand name providers, they all offer models now that are A fraction of the price of the, the, of the models we were using last year.[00:07:49] Simon: I think I've got some numbers that I threw into my blog entry here. Yeah. Like Gemini 1. 5 flash, that's Google's fast high quality model is [00:08:00] how much is that? It's 0. 075 dollars per million tokens. Like these numbers are getting, So we just do cents per million now,[00:08:09] swyx (2): cents per million,[00:08:10] Simon: cents per million makes, makes a lot more sense.[00:08:12] Simon: Yeah they have one model 1. 5 flash 8B, the absolute cheapest of the Google models, is 27 times cheaper than GPT 3. 5 turbo was a year ago. That's it. And GPT 3. 5 turbo, that was the cheap model, right? Now we've got something 27 times cheaper, and the Google, this Google one can do image recognition, it can do million token context, all of those tricks.[00:08:36] Simon: But it's, it's, it's very, it's, it really is startling how inexpensive some of this stuff has got.[00:08:41] Brian: Now, are we assuming that this, that happening is directly the result of competition? Because again, you know, OpenAI, and probably they're doing this for their own almost political reasons, strategic reasons, keeps saying, we're losing money on everything, even the 200.[00:08:56] Brian: So they probably wouldn't, the prices wouldn't be [00:09:00] coming down if there wasn't intense competition in this space.[00:09:04] Simon: The competition is absolutely part of it, but I have it on good authority from sources I trust that Google Gemini is not operating at a loss. Like, the amount of electricity to run a prompt is less than they charge you.[00:09:16] Simon: And the same thing for Amazon Nova. Like, somebody found an Amazon executive and got them to say, Yeah, we're not losing money on this. I don't know about Anthropic and OpenAI, but clearly that demonstrates it is possible to run these things at these ludicrously low prices and still not be running at a loss if you discount the Army of PhDs and the, the training costs and all of that kind of stuff.[00:09:36] Brian: One, one more for me before I let Swyx jump in here. To, to come back to DeepSeek and this idea that you could train, you know, a cutting edge model for 6 million. I, I was saying on the show, like six months ago, that if we are getting to the point where each new model It would cost a billion, ten billion, a hundred billion to train that.[00:09:54] Brian: At some point it would almost, only nation states would be able to train the new models. Do you [00:10:00] expect what DeepSeek and maybe others are proving to sort of blow that up? Or is there like some sort of a parallel track here that maybe I'm not technically, I don't have the mouse to understand the difference.[00:10:11] Brian: Is the model, are the models going to go, you know, Up to a hundred billion dollars or can we get them down? Sort of like DeepSeek has proven[00:10:18] Simon: so I'm the wrong person to answer that because I don't work in the lab training these models. So I can give you my completely uninformed opinion, which is, I felt like the DeepSeek thing.[00:10:27] Simon: That was a bomb shell. That was an absolute bombshell when they came out and said, Hey, look, we've trained. One of the best available models and it cost us six, five and a half million dollars to do it. I feel, and they, the reason, one of the reasons it's so efficient is that we put all of these export controls in to stop Chinese companies from giant buying GPUs.[00:10:44] Simon: So they've, were forced to be, go as efficient as possible. And yet the fact that they've demonstrated that that's possible to do. I think it does completely tear apart this, this, this mental model we had before that yeah, the training runs just keep on getting more and more expensive and the number of [00:11:00] organizations that can afford to run these training runs keeps on shrinking.[00:11:03] Simon: That, that's been blown out of the water. So yeah, that's, again, this was our Christmas gift. This was the thing they dropped on Christmas day. Yeah, it makes me really optimistic that we can, there are, It feels like there was so much low hanging fruit in terms of the efficiency of both inference and training and we spent a whole bunch of last year exploring that and getting results from it.[00:11:22] Simon: I think there's probably a lot left. I think there's probably, well, I would not be surprised to see even better models trained spending even less money over the next six months.[00:11:31] swyx (2): Yeah. So I, I think there's a unspoken angle here on what exactly the Chinese labs are trying to do because DeepSea made a lot of noise.[00:11:41] swyx (2): so much for joining us for around the fact that they train their model for six million dollars and nobody quite quite believes them. Like it's very, very rare for a lab to trumpet the fact that they're doing it for so cheap. They're not trying to get anyone to buy them. So why [00:12:00] are they doing this? They make it very, very obvious.[00:12:05] swyx (2): Deepseek is about 150 employees. It's an order of magnitude smaller than at least Anthropic and maybe, maybe more so for OpenAI. And so what's, what's the end game here? Are they, are they just trying to show that the Chinese are better than us?[00:12:21] Simon: So Deepseek, it's the arm of a hedge, it's a, it's a quant fund, right?[00:12:25] Simon: It's an algorithmic quant trading thing. So I, I, I would love to get more insight into how that organization works. My assumption from what I've seen is it looks like they're basically just flexing. They're like, hey, look at how utterly brilliant we are with this amazing thing that we've done. And it's, it's working, right?[00:12:43] Simon: They but, and so is that it? Are they, is this just their kind of like, this is, this is why our company is so amazing. Look at this thing that we've done, or? I don't know. I'd, I'd love to get Some insight from, from within that industry as to, as to how that's all playing out.[00:12:57] swyx (2): The, the prevailing theory among the Local Llama [00:13:00] crew and the Twitter crew that I indexed for my newsletter is that there is some amount of copying going on.[00:13:06] swyx (2): It's like Sam Altman you know, tweet, tweeting about how they're being copied. And then also there's this, there, there are other sort of opening eye employees that have said, Stuff that is similar that DeepSeek's rate of progress is how U. S. intelligence estimates the number of foreign spies embedded in top labs.[00:13:22] swyx (2): Because a lot of these ideas do spread around, but they surprisingly have a very high density of them in the DeepSeek v3 technical report. So it's, it's interesting. We don't know how much, how many, how much tokens. I think that, you know, people have run analysis on how often DeepSeek thinks it is cloud or thinks it is opening GPC 4.[00:13:40] swyx (2): Thanks for watching! And we don't, we don't know. We don't know. I think for me, like, yeah, we'll, we'll, we basically will never know as, as external commentators. I think what's interesting is how, where does this go? Is there a logical floor or bottom by my estimations for the same amount of ELO started last year to the end of last year cost went down by a thousand X for the [00:14:00] GPT, for, for GPT 4 intelligence.[00:14:02] swyx (2): Would, do they go down a thousand X this year?[00:14:04] Simon: That's a fascinating question. Yeah.[00:14:06] swyx (2): Is there a Moore's law going on, or did we just get a one off benefit last year for some weird reason?[00:14:14] Simon: My uninformed hunch is low hanging fruit. I feel like up until a year ago, people haven't been focusing on efficiency at all. You know, it was all about, what can we get these weird shaped things to do?[00:14:24] Simon: And now once we've sort of hit that, okay, we know that we can get them to do what GPT 4 can do, When thousands of researchers around the world all focus on, okay, how do we make this more efficient? What are the most important, like, how do we strip out all of the weights that have stuff in that doesn't really matter?[00:14:39] Simon: All of that kind of thing. So yeah, maybe that was it. Maybe 2024 was a freak year of all of the low hanging fruit coming out at once. And we'll actually see a reduction in the, in that rate of improvement in terms of efficiency. I wonder, I mean, I think we'll know for sure in about three months time if that trend's going to continue or not.[00:14:58] swyx (2): I agree. You know, I [00:15:00] think the other thing that you mentioned that DeepSeq v3 was the gift that was given from DeepSeq over Christmas, but I feel like the other thing that might be underrated was DeepSeq R1,[00:15:11] Speaker 4: which is[00:15:13] swyx (2): a reasoning model you can run on your laptop. And I think that's something that a lot of people are looking ahead to this year.[00:15:18] swyx (2): Oh, did they[00:15:18] Simon: release the weights for that one?[00:15:20] swyx (2): Yeah.[00:15:21] Simon: Oh my goodness, I missed that. I've been playing with the quen. So the other great, the other big Chinese AI app is Alibaba's quen. Actually, yeah, I, sorry, R1 is an API available. Yeah. Exactly. When that's really cool. So Alibaba's Quen have released two reasoning models that I've run on my laptop.[00:15:38] Simon: Now there was, the first one was Q, Q, WQ. And then the second one was QVQ because the second one's a vision model. So you can like give it vision puzzles and a prompt that these things, they are so much fun to run. Because they think out loud. It's like the OpenAR 01 sort of hides its thinking process. The Query ones don't.[00:15:59] Simon: They just, they [00:16:00] just churn away. And so you'll give it a problem and it will output literally dozens of paragraphs of text about how it's thinking. My favorite thing that happened with QWQ is I asked it to draw me a pelican on a bicycle in SVG. That's like my standard stupid prompt. And for some reason it thought in Chinese.[00:16:18] Simon: It spat out a whole bunch of like Chinese text onto my terminal on my laptop, and then at the end it gave me quite a good sort of artistic pelican on a bicycle. And I ran it all through Google Translate, and yeah, it was like, it was contemplating the nature of SVG files as a starting point. And the fact that my laptop can think in Chinese now is so delightful.[00:16:40] Simon: It's so much fun watching you do that.[00:16:43] swyx (2): Yeah, I think Andrej Karpathy was saying, you know, we, we know that we have achieved proper reasoning inside of these models when they stop thinking in English, and perhaps the best form of thought is in Chinese. But yeah, for listeners who don't know Simon's blog he always, whenever a new model comes out, you, I don't know how you do it, but [00:17:00] you're always the first to run Pelican Bench on these models.[00:17:02] swyx (2): I just did it for 5.[00:17:05] Simon: Yeah.[00:17:07] swyx (2): So I really appreciate that. You should check it out. These are not theoretical. Simon's blog actually shows them.[00:17:12] Brian: Let me put on the investor hat for a second.[00:17:15] AI Agents and Their Limitations[00:17:15] Brian: Because from the investor side of things, a lot of the, the VCs that I know are really hot on agents, and this is the year of agents, but last year was supposed to be the year of agents as well. Lots of money flowing towards, And Gentic startups.[00:17:32] Brian: But in in your piece that again, we're hopefully going to have linked in the show notes, you sort of suggest there's a fundamental flaw in AI agents as they exist right now. Let me let me quote you. And then I'd love to dive into this. You said, I remain skeptical as to their ability based once again, on the Challenge of gullibility.[00:17:49] Brian: LLMs believe anything you tell them, any systems that attempt to make meaningful decisions on your behalf, will run into the same roadblock. How good is a travel agent, or a digital assistant, or even a research tool, if it [00:18:00] can't distinguish truth from fiction? So, essentially, what you're suggesting is that the state of the art now that allows agents is still, it's still that sort of 90 percent problem, the edge problem, getting to the Or, or, or is there a deeper flaw?[00:18:14] Brian: What are you, what are you saying there?[00:18:16] Simon: So this is the fundamental challenge here and honestly my frustration with agents is mainly around definitions Like any if you ask anyone who says they're working on agents to define agents You will get a subtly different definition from each person But everyone always assumes that their definition is the one true one that everyone else understands So I feel like a lot of these agent conversations, people talking past each other because one person's talking about the, the sort of travel agent idea of something that books things on your behalf.[00:18:41] Simon: Somebody else is talking about LLMs with tools running in a loop with a cron job somewhere and all of these different things. You, you ask academics and they'll laugh at you because they've been debating what agents mean for over 30 years at this point. It's like this, this long running, almost sort of an in joke in that community.[00:18:57] Simon: But if we assume that for this purpose of this conversation, an [00:19:00] agent is something that, Which you can give a job and it goes off and it does that thing for you like, like booking travel or things like that. The fundamental challenge is, it's the reliability thing, which comes from this gullibility problem.[00:19:12] Simon: And a lot of my, my interest in this originally came from when I was thinking about prompt injections as a source of this form of attack against LLM systems where you deliberately lay traps out there for this LLM to stumble across,[00:19:24] Brian: and which I should say you have been banging this drum that no one's gotten any far, at least on solving this, that I'm aware of, right.[00:19:31] Brian: Like that's still an open problem. The two years.[00:19:33] Simon: Yeah. Right. We've been talking about this problem and like, a great illustration of this was Claude so Anthropic released Claude computer use a few months ago. Fantastic demo. You could fire up a Docker container and you could literally tell it to do something and watch it open a web browser and navigate to a webpage and click around and so forth.[00:19:51] Simon: Really, really, really interesting and fun to play with. And then, um. One of the first demos somebody tried was, what if you give it a web page that says download and run this [00:20:00] executable, and it did, and the executable was malware that added it to a botnet. So the, the very first most obvious dumb trick that you could play on this thing just worked, right?[00:20:10] Simon: So that's obviously a really big problem. If I'm going to send something out to book travel on my behalf, I mean, it's hard enough for me to figure out which airlines are trying to scam me and which ones aren't. Do I really trust a language model that believes the literal truth of anything that's presented to it to go out and do those things?[00:20:29] swyx (2): Yeah I definitely think there's, it's interesting to see Anthropic doing this because they used to be the safety arm of OpenAI that split out and said, you know, we're worried about letting this thing out in the wild and here they are enabling computer use for agents. Thanks. The, it feels like things have merged.[00:20:49] swyx (2): You know, I'm, I'm also fairly skeptical about, you know, this always being the, the year of Linux on the desktop. And this is the equivalent of this being the year of agents that people [00:21:00] are not predicting so much as wishfully thinking and hoping and praying for their companies and agents to work.[00:21:05] swyx (2): But I, I feel like things are. Coming along a little bit. It's to me, it's kind of like self driving. I remember in 2014 saying that self driving was just around the corner. And I mean, it kind of is, you know, like in, in, in the Bay area. You[00:21:17] Simon: get in a Waymo and you're like, Oh, this works. Yeah, but it's a slow[00:21:21] swyx (2): cook.[00:21:21] swyx (2): It's a slow cook over the next 10 years. We're going to hammer out these things and the cynical people can just point to all the flaws, but like, there are measurable or concrete progress steps that are being made by these builders.[00:21:33] Simon: There is one form of agent that I believe in. I believe, mostly believe in the research assistant form of agents.[00:21:39] Simon: The thing where you've got a difficult problem and, and I've got like, I'm, I'm on the beta for the, the Google Gemini 1. 5 pro with deep research. I think it's called like these names, these names. Right. But. I've been using that. It's good, right? You can give it a difficult problem and it tells you, okay, I'm going to look at 56 different websites [00:22:00] and it goes away and it dumps everything to its context and it comes up with a report for you.[00:22:04] Simon: And it's not, it won't work against adversarial websites, right? If there are websites with deliberate lies in them, it might well get caught out. Most things don't have that as a problem. And so I've had some answers from that which were genuinely really valuable to me. And that feels to me like, I can see how given existing LLM tech, especially with Google Gemini with its like million token contacts and Google with their crawl of the entire web and their, they've got like search, they've got search and cache, they've got a cache of every page and so forth.[00:22:35] Simon: That makes sense to me. And that what they've got right now, I don't think it's, it's not as good as it can be, obviously, but it's, it's, it's, it's a real useful thing, which they're going to start rolling out. So, you know, Perplexity have been building the same thing for a couple of years. That, that I believe in.[00:22:50] Simon: You know, if you tell me that you're going to have an agent that's a research assistant agent, great. The coding agents I mean, chat gpt code interpreter, Nearly two years [00:23:00] ago, that thing started writing Python code, executing the code, getting errors, rewriting it to fix the errors. That pattern obviously works.[00:23:07] Simon: That works really, really well. So, yeah, coding agents that do that sort of error message loop thing, those are proven to work. And they're going to keep on getting better, and that's going to be great. The research assistant agents are just beginning to get there. The things I'm critical of are the ones where you trust, you trust this thing to go out and act autonomously on your behalf, and make decisions on your behalf, especially involving spending money, like that.[00:23:31] Simon: I don't see that working for a very long time. That feels to me like an AGI level problem.[00:23:37] swyx (2): It's it's funny because I think Stripe actually released an agent toolkit which is one of the, the things I featured that is trying to enable these agents each to have a wallet that they can go and spend and have, basically, it's a virtual card.[00:23:49] swyx (2): It's not that, not that difficult with modern infrastructure. can[00:23:51] Simon: stick a 50 cap on it, then at least it's an honor. Can't lose more than 50.[00:23:56] Brian: You know I don't, I don't know if either of you know Rafat Ali [00:24:00] he runs Skift, which is a, a travel news vertical. And he, he, he constantly laughs at the fact that every agent thing is, we're gonna get rid of booking a, a plane flight for you, you know?[00:24:11] Brian: And, and I would point out that, like, historically, when the web started, the first thing everyone talked about is, You can go online and book a trip, right? So it's funny for each generation of like technological advance. The thing they always want to kill is the travel agent. And now they want to kill the webpage travel agent.[00:24:29] Simon: Like it's like I use Google flight search. It's great, right? If you gave me an agent to do that for me, it would save me, I mean, maybe 15 seconds of typing in my things, but I still want to see what my options are and go, yeah, I'm not flying on that airline, no matter how cheap they are.[00:24:44] swyx (2): Yeah. For listeners, go ahead.[00:24:47] swyx (2): For listeners, I think, you know, I think both of you are pretty positive on NotebookLM. And you know, we, we actually interviewed the NotebookLM creators, and there are actually two internal agents going on internally. The reason it takes so long is because they're running an agent loop [00:25:00] inside that is fairly autonomous, which is kind of interesting.[00:25:01] swyx (2): For one,[00:25:02] Simon: for a definition of agent loop, if you picked that particularly well. For one definition. And you're talking about the podcast side of this, right?[00:25:07] swyx (2): Yeah, the podcast side of things. They have a there's, there's going to be a new version coming out that, that we'll be featuring at our, at our conference.[00:25:14] Simon: That one's fascinating to me. Like NotebookLM, I think it's two products, right? On the one hand, it's actually a very good rag product, right? You dump a bunch of things in, you can run searches, that, that, it does a good job of. And then, and then they added the, the podcast thing. It's a bit of a, it's a total gimmick, right?[00:25:30] Simon: But that gimmick got them attention, because they had a great product that nobody paid any attention to at all. And then you add the unfeasibly good voice synthesis of the podcast. Like, it's just, it's, it's, it's the lesson.[00:25:43] Brian: It's the lesson of mid journey and stuff like that. If you can create something that people can post on socials, you don't have to lift a finger again to do any marketing for what you're doing.[00:25:53] Brian: Let me dig into Notebook LLM just for a second as a podcaster. As a [00:26:00] gimmick, it makes sense, and then obviously, you know, you dig into it, it sort of has problems around the edges. It's like, it does the thing that all sort of LLMs kind of do, where it's like, oh, we want to Wrap up with a conclusion.[00:26:12] Multimodal AI and Future Prospects[00:26:12] Brian: I always call that like the the eighth grade book report paper problem where it has to have an intro and then, you know But that's sort of a thing where because I think you spoke about this again in your piece at the year end About how things are going multimodal and how things are that you didn't expect like, you know vision and especially audio I think So that's another thing where, at least over the last year, there's been progress made that maybe you, you didn't think was coming as quick as it came.[00:26:43] Simon: I don't know. I mean, a year ago, we had one really good vision model. We had GPT 4 vision, was, was, was very impressive. And Google Gemini had just dropped Gemini 1. 0, which had vision, but nobody had really played with it yet. Like Google hadn't. People weren't taking Gemini [00:27:00] seriously at that point. I feel like it was 1.[00:27:02] Simon: 5 Pro when it became apparent that actually they were, they, they got over their hump and they were building really good models. And yeah, and they, to be honest, the video models are mostly still using the same trick. The thing where you divide the video up into one image per second and you dump that all into the context.[00:27:16] Simon: So maybe it shouldn't have been so surprising to us that long context models plus vision meant that the video was, was starting to be solved. Of course, it didn't. Not being, you, what you really want with videos, you want to be able to do the audio and the images at the same time. And I think the models are beginning to do that now.[00:27:33] Simon: Like, originally, Gemini 1. 5 Pro originally ignored the audio. It just did the, the, like, one frame per second video trick. As far as I can tell, the most recent ones are actually doing pure multimodal. But the things that opens up are just extraordinary. Like, the the ChatGPT iPhone app feature that they shipped as one of their 12 days of, of OpenAI, I really can be having a conversation and just turn on my video camera and go, Hey, what kind of tree is [00:28:00] this?[00:28:00] Simon: And so forth. And it works. And for all I know, that's just snapping a like picture once a second and feeding it into the model. The, the, the things that you can do with that as an end user are extraordinary. Like that, that to me, I don't think most people have cottoned onto the fact that you can now stream video directly into a model because it, it's only a few weeks old.[00:28:22] Simon: Wow. That's a, that's a, that's a, that's Big boost in terms of what kinds of things you can do with this stuff. Yeah. For[00:28:30] swyx (2): people who are not that close I think Gemini Flashes free tier allows you to do something like capture a photo, one photo every second or a minute and leave it on 24, seven, and you can prompt it to do whatever.[00:28:45] swyx (2): And so you can effectively have your own camera app or monitoring app that that you just prompt and it detects where it changes. It detects for, you know, alerts or anything like that, or describes your day. You know, and, and, and the fact that this is free I think [00:29:00] it's also leads into the previous point of it being the prices haven't come down a lot.[00:29:05] Simon: And even if you're paying for this stuff, like a thing that I put in my blog entry is I ran a calculation on what it would cost to process 68, 000 photographs in my photo collection, and for each one just generate a caption, and using Gemini 1. 5 Flash 8B, it would cost me 1. 68 to process 68, 000 images, which is, I mean, that, that doesn't make sense.[00:29:28] Simon: None of that makes sense. Like it's, it's a, for one four hundredth of a cent per image to generate captions now. So you can see why feeding in a day's worth of video just isn't even very expensive to process.[00:29:40] swyx (2): Yeah, I'll tell you what is expensive. It's the other direction. So we're here, we're talking about consuming video.[00:29:46] swyx (2): And this year, we also had a lot of progress, like probably one of the most excited, excited, anticipated launches of the year was Sora. We actually got Sora. And less exciting.[00:29:55] Simon: We did, and then VO2, Google's Sora, came out like three [00:30:00] days later and upstaged it. Like, Sora was exciting until VO2 landed, which was just better.[00:30:05] swyx (2): In general, I feel the media, or the social media, has been very unfair to Sora. Because what was released to the world, generally available, was Sora Lite. It's the distilled version of Sora, right? So you're, I did not[00:30:16] Simon: realize that you're absolutely comparing[00:30:18] swyx (2): the, the most cherry picked version of VO two, the one that they published on the marketing page to the, the most embarrassing version of the soa.[00:30:25] swyx (2): So of course it's gonna look bad, so, well, I got[00:30:27] Simon: access to the VO two I'm in the VO two beta and I've been poking around with it and. Getting it to generate pelicans on bicycles and stuff. I would absolutely[00:30:34] swyx (2): believe that[00:30:35] Simon: VL2 is actually better. Is Sora, so is full fat Sora coming soon? Do you know, when, when do we get to play with that one?[00:30:42] Simon: No one's[00:30:43] swyx (2): mentioned anything. I think basically the strategy is let people play around with Sora Lite and get info there. But the, the, keep developing Sora with the Hollywood studios. That's what they actually care about. Gotcha. Like the rest of us. Don't really know what to do with the video anyway. Right.[00:30:59] Simon: I mean, [00:31:00] that's my thing is I realized that for generative images and images and video like images We've had for a few years and I don't feel like they've broken out into the talented artist community yet Like lots of people are having fun with them and doing and producing stuff. That's kind of cool to look at but what I want you know that that movie everything everywhere all at once, right?[00:31:20] Simon: One, one ton of Oscars, utterly amazing film. The VFX team for that were five people, some of whom were watching YouTube videos to figure out what to do. My big question for, for Sora and and and Midjourney and stuff, what happens when a creative team like that starts using these tools? I want the creative geniuses behind everything, everywhere all at once.[00:31:40] Simon: What are they going to be able to do with this stuff in like a few years time? Because that's really exciting to me. That's where you take artists who are at the very peak of their game. Give them these new capabilities and see, see what they can do with them.[00:31:52] swyx (2): I should, I know a little bit here. So it should mention that, that team actually used RunwayML.[00:31:57] swyx (2): So there was, there was,[00:31:57] Simon: yeah.[00:31:59] swyx (2): I don't know how [00:32:00] much I don't. So, you know, it's possible to overstate this, but there are people integrating it. Generated video within their workflow, even pre SORA. Right, because[00:32:09] Brian: it's not, it's not the thing where it's like, okay, tomorrow we'll be able to do a full two hour movie that you prompt with three sentences.[00:32:15] Brian: It is like, for the very first part of, of, you know video effects in film, it's like, if you can get that three second clip, if you can get that 20 second thing that they did in the matrix that blew everyone's minds and took a million dollars or whatever to do, like, it's the, it's the little bits and pieces that they can fill in now that it's probably already there.[00:32:34] swyx (2): Yeah, it's like, I think actually having a layered view of what assets people need and letting AI fill in the low value assets. Right, like the background video, the background music and, you know, sometimes the sound effects. That, that maybe, maybe more palatable maybe also changes the, the way that you evaluate the stuff that's coming out.[00:32:57] swyx (2): Because people tend to, in social media, try to [00:33:00] emphasize foreground stuff, main character stuff. So you really care about consistency, and you, you really are bothered when, like, for example, Sorad. Botch's image generation of a gymnast doing flips, which is horrible. It's horrible. But for background crowds, like, who cares?[00:33:18] Brian: And by the way, again, I was, I was a film major way, way back in the day, like, that's how it started. Like things like Braveheart, where they filmed 10 people on a field, and then the computer could turn it into 1000 people on a field. Like, that's always been the way it's around the margins and in the background that first comes in.[00:33:36] Brian: The[00:33:36] Simon: Lord of the Rings movies were over 20 years ago. Although they have those giant battle sequences, which were very early, like, I mean, you could almost call it a generative AI approach, right? They were using very sophisticated, like, algorithms to model out those different battles and all of that kind of stuff.[00:33:52] Simon: Yeah, I know very little. I know basically nothing about film production, so I try not to commentate on it. But I am fascinated to [00:34:00] see what happens when, when these tools start being used by the real, the people at the top of their game.[00:34:05] swyx (2): I would say like there's a cultural war that is more that being fought here than a technology war.[00:34:11] swyx (2): Most of the Hollywood people are against any form of AI anyway, so they're busy Fighting that battle instead of thinking about how to adopt it and it's, it's very fringe. I participated here in San Francisco, one generative AI video creative hackathon where the AI positive artists actually met with technologists like myself and then we collaborated together to build short films and that was really nice and I think, you know, I'll be hosting some of those in my events going forward.[00:34:38] swyx (2): One thing that I think like I want to leave it. Give people a sense of it's like this is a recap of last year But then sometimes it's useful to walk away as well with like what can we expect in the future? I don't know if you got anything. I would also call out that the Chinese models here have made a lot of progress Hyde Law and Kling and God knows who like who else in the video arena [00:35:00] Also making a lot of progress like surprising him like I think maybe actually Chinese China is surprisingly ahead with regards to Open8 at least, but also just like specific forms of video generation.[00:35:12] Simon: Wouldn't it be interesting if a film industry sprung up in a country that we don't normally think of having a really strong film industry that was using these tools? Like, that would be a fascinating sort of angle on this. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.[00:35:25] swyx (2): Agreed. I, I, I Oh, sorry. Go ahead.[00:35:29] Exploring Video Avatar Companies[00:35:29] swyx (2): Just for people's Just to put it on people's radar as well, Hey Jen, there's like there's a category of video avatar companies that don't specifically, don't specialize in general video.[00:35:41] swyx (2): They only do talking heads, let's just say. And HeyGen sings very well.[00:35:45] Brian: Swyx, you know that that's what I've been using, right? Like, have, have I, yeah, right. So, if you see some of my recent YouTube videos and things like that, where, because the beauty part of the HeyGen thing is, I, I, I don't want to use the robot voice, so [00:36:00] I record the mp3 file for my computer, And then I put that into HeyGen with the avatar that I've trained it on, and all it does is the lip sync.[00:36:09] Brian: So it looks, it's not 100 percent uncanny valley beatable, but it's good enough that if you weren't looking for it, it's just me sitting there doing one of my clips from the show. And, yeah, so, by the way, HeyGen. Shout out to them.[00:36:24] AI Influencers and Their Future[00:36:24] swyx (2): So I would, you know, in terms of like the look ahead going, like, looking, reviewing 2024, looking at trends for 2025, I would, they basically call this out.[00:36:33] swyx (2): Meta tried to introduce AI influencers and failed horribly because they were just bad at it. But at some point that there will be more and more basically AI influencers Not in a way that Simon is but in a way that they are not human.[00:36:50] Simon: Like the few of those that have done well, I always feel like they're doing well because it's a gimmick, right?[00:36:54] Simon: It's a it's it's novel and fun to like Like that, the AI Seinfeld thing [00:37:00] from last year, the Twitch stream, you know, like those, if you're the only one or one of just a few doing that, you'll get, you'll attract an audience because it's an interesting new thing. But I just, I don't know if that's going to be sustainable longer term or not.[00:37:11] Simon: Like,[00:37:12] Simplifying Content Creation with AI[00:37:12] Brian: I'm going to tell you, Because I've had discussions, I can't name the companies or whatever, but, so think about the workflow for this, like, now we all know that on TikTok and Instagram, like, holding up a phone to your face, and doing like, in my car video, or walking, a walk and talk, you know, that's, that's very common, but also, if you want to do a professional sort of talking head video, you still have to sit in front of a camera, you still have to do the lighting, you still have to do the video editing, versus, if you can just record, what I'm saying right now, the last 30 seconds, If you clip that out as an mp3 and you have a good enough avatar, then you can put that avatar in front of Times Square, on a beach, or whatever.[00:37:50] Brian: So, like, again for creators, the reason I think Simon, we're on the verge of something, it, it just, it's not going to, I think it's not, oh, we're going to have [00:38:00] AI avatars take over, it'll be one of those things where it takes another piece of the workflow out and simplifies it. I'm all[00:38:07] Simon: for that. I, I always love this stuff.[00:38:08] Simon: I like tools. Tools that help human beings do more. Do more ambitious things. I'm always in favor of, like, that, that, that's what excites me about this entire field.[00:38:17] swyx (2): Yeah. We're, we're looking into basically creating one for my podcast. We have this guy Charlie, he's Australian. He's, he's not real, but he pre, he opens every show and we are gonna have him present all the shorts.[00:38:29] Simon: Yeah, go ahead.[00:38:30] The Importance of Credibility in AI[00:38:30] Simon: The thing that I keep coming back to is this idea of credibility like in a world that is full of like AI generated everything and so forth It becomes even more important that people find the sources of information that they trust and find people and find Sources that are credible and I feel like that's the one thing that LLMs and AI can never have is credibility, right?[00:38:49] Simon: ChatGPT can never stake its reputation on telling you something useful and interesting because That means nothing, right? It's a matrix multiplication. It depends on who prompted it and so forth. So [00:39:00] I'm always, and this is when I'm blogging as well, I'm always looking for, okay, who are the reliable people who will tell me useful, interesting information who aren't just going to tell me whatever somebody's paying them to tell, tell them, who aren't going to, like, type a one sentence prompt into an LLM and spit out an essay and stick it online.[00:39:16] Simon: And that, that to me, Like, earning that credibility is really important. That's why a lot of my ethics around the way that I publish are based on the idea that I want people to trust me. I want to do things that, that gain credibility in people's eyes so they will come to me for information as a trustworthy source.[00:39:32] Simon: And it's the same for the sources that I'm, I'm consulting as well. So that's something I've, I've been thinking a lot about that sort of credibility focus on this thing for a while now.[00:39:40] swyx (2): Yeah, you can layer or structure credibility or decompose it like so one thing I would put in front of you I'm not saying that you should Agree with this or accept this at all is that you can use AI to generate different Variations and then and you pick you as the final sort of last mile person that you pick The last output and [00:40:00] you put your stamp of credibility behind that like that everything's human reviewed instead of human origin[00:40:04] Simon: Yeah, if you publish something you need to be able to put it on the ground Publishing it.[00:40:08] Simon: You need to say, I will put my name to this. I will attach my credibility to this thing. And if you're willing to do that, then, then that's great.[00:40:16] swyx (2): For creators, this is huge because there's a fundamental asymmetry between starting with a blank slate versus choosing from five different variations.[00:40:23] Brian: Right.[00:40:24] Brian: And also the key thing that you just said is like, if everything that I do, if all of the words were generated by an LLM, if the voice is generated by an LLM. If the video is also generated by the LLM, then I haven't done anything, right? But if, if one or two of those, you take a shortcut, but it's still, I'm willing to sign off on it.[00:40:47] Brian: Like, I feel like that's where I feel like people are coming around to like, this is maybe acceptable, sort of.[00:40:53] Simon: This is where I've been pushing the definition. I love the term slop. Where I've been pushing the definition of slop as AI generated [00:41:00] content that is both unrequested and unreviewed and the unreviewed thing is really important like that's the thing that elevates something from slop to not slop is if A human being has reviewed it and said, you know what, this is actually worth other people's time.[00:41:12] Simon: And again, I'm willing to attach my credibility to it and say, hey, this is worthwhile.[00:41:16] Brian: It's, it's, it's the cura curational, curatorial and editorial part of it that no matter what the tools are to do shortcuts, to do, as, as Swyx is saying choose between different edits or different cuts, but in the end, if there's a curatorial mind, Or editorial mind behind it.[00:41:32] Brian: Let me I want to wedge this in before we start to close.[00:41:36] The Future of LLM User Interfaces[00:41:36] Brian: One of the things coming back to your year end piece that has been a something that I've been banging the drum about is when you're talking about LLMs. Getting harder to use. You said most users are thrown in at the deep end.[00:41:48] Brian: The default LLM chat UI is like taking brand new computer users, dropping them into a Linux terminal and expecting them to figure it all out. I mean, it's, it's literally going back to the command line. The command line was defeated [00:42:00] by the GUI interface. And this is what I've been banging the drum about is like, this cannot be.[00:42:05] Brian: The user interface, what we have now cannot be the end result. Do you see any hints or seeds of a GUI moment for LLM interfaces?[00:42:17] Simon: I mean, it has to happen. It absolutely has to happen. The the, the, the, the usability of these things is turning into a bit of a crisis. And we are at least seeing some really interesting innovation in little directions.[00:42:28] Simon: Just like OpenAI's chat GPT canvas thing that they just launched. That is at least. Going a little bit more interesting than just chat, chats and responses. You know, you can, they're exploring that space where you're collaborating with an LLM. You're both working in the, on the same document. That makes a lot of sense to me.[00:42:44] Simon: Like that, that feels really smart. The one of the best things is still who was it who did the, the UI where you could, they had a drawing UI where you draw an interface and click a button. TL draw would then make it real thing. That was spectacular, [00:43:00] absolutely spectacular, like, alternative vision of how you'd interact with these models.[00:43:05] Simon: Because yeah, the and that's, you know, so I feel like there is so much scope for innovation there and it is beginning to happen. Like, like, I, I feel like most people do understand that we need to do better in terms of interfaces that both help explain what's going on and give people better tools for working with models.[00:43:23] Simon: I was going to say, I want to[00:43:25] Brian: dig a little deeper into this because think of the conceptual idea behind the GUI, which is instead of typing into a command line open word. exe, it's, you, you click an icon, right? So that's abstracting away sort of the, again, the programming stuff that like, you know, it's, it's a, a, a child can tap on an iPad and, and make a program open, right?[00:43:47] Brian: The problem it seems to me right now with how we're interacting with LLMs is it's sort of like you know a dumb robot where it's like you poke it and it goes over here, but no, I want it, I want to go over here so you poke it this way and you can't get it exactly [00:44:00] right, like, what can we abstract away from the From the current, what's going on that, that makes it more fine tuned and easier to get more precise.[00:44:12] Brian: You see what I'm saying?[00:44:13] Simon: Yes. And the this is the other trend that I've been following from the last year, which I think is super interesting. It's the, the prompt driven UI development thing. Basically, this is the pattern where Claude Artifacts was the first thing to do this really well. You type in a prompt and it goes, Oh, I should answer that by writing a custom HTML and JavaScript application for you that does a certain thing.[00:44:35] Simon: And when you think about that take and since then it turns out This is easy, right? Every decent LLM can produce HTML and JavaScript that does something useful. So we've actually got this alternative way of interacting where they can respond to your prompt with an interactive custom interface that you can work with.[00:44:54] Simon: People haven't quite wired those back up again. Like, ideally, I'd want the LLM ask me a [00:45:00] question where it builds me a custom little UI, For that question, and then it gets to see how I interacted with that. I don't know why, but that's like just such a small step from where we are right now. But that feels like such an obvious next step.[00:45:12] Simon: Like an LLM, why should it, why should you just be communicating with, with text when it can build interfaces on the fly that let you select a point on a map or or move like sliders up and down. It's gonna create knobs and dials. I keep saying knobs and dials. right. We can do that. And the LLMs can build, and Claude artifacts will build you a knobs and dials interface.[00:45:34] Simon: But at the moment they haven't closed the loop. When you twiddle those knobs, Claude doesn't see what you were doing. They're going to close that loop. I'm, I'm shocked that they haven't done it yet. So yeah, I think there's so much scope for innovation and there's so much scope for doing interesting stuff with that model where the LLM, anything you can represent in SVG, which is almost everything, can now be part of that ongoing conversation.[00:45:59] swyx (2): Yeah, [00:46:00] I would say the best executed version of this I've seen so far is Bolt where you can literally type in, make a Spotify clone, make an Airbnb clone, and it actually just does that for you zero shot with a nice design.[00:46:14] Simon: There's a benchmark for that now. The LMRena people now have a benchmark that is zero shot app, app generation, because all of the models can do it.[00:46:22] Simon: Like it's, it's, I've started figuring out. I'm building my own version of this for my own project, because I think within six months. I think it'll just be an expected feature. Like if you have a web application, why don't you have a thing where, oh, look, the, you can add a custom, like, so for my dataset data exploration project, I want you to be able to do things like conjure up a dashboard, just via a prompt.[00:46:43] Simon: You say, oh, I need a pie chart and a bar chart and put them next to each other, and then have a form where submitting the form inserts a row into my database table. And this is all suddenly feasible. It's, it's, it's not even particularly difficult to do, which is great. Utterly bizarre that these things are now easy.[00:47:00][00:47:00] swyx (2): I think for a general audience, that is what I would highlight, that software creation is becoming easier and easier. Gemini is now available in Gmail and Google Sheets. I don't write my own Google Sheets formulas anymore, I just tell Gemini to do it. And so I think those are, I almost wanted to basically somewhat disagree with, with your assertion that LMS got harder to use.[00:47:22] swyx (2): Like, yes, we, we expose more capabilities, but they're, they're in minor forms, like using canvas, like web search in, in in chat GPT and like Gemini being in, in Excel sheets or in Google sheets, like, yeah, we're getting, no,[00:47:37] Simon: no, no, no. Those are the things that make it harder, because the problem is that for each of those features, they're amazing.[00:47:43] Simon: If you understand the edges of the feature, if you're like, okay, so in Google, Gemini, Excel formulas, I can get it to do a certain amount of things, but I can't get it to go and read a web. You probably can't get it to read a webpage, right? But you know, there are, there are things that it can do and things that it can't do, which are completely undocumented.[00:47:58] Simon: If you ask it what it [00:48:00] can and can't do, they're terrible at answering questions about that. So like my favorite example is Claude artifacts. You can't build a Claude artifact that can hit an API somewhere else. Because the cause headers on that iframe prevents accessing anything outside of CDNJS. So, good luck learning cause headers as an end user in order to understand why Like, I've seen people saying, oh, this is rubbish.[00:48:26] Simon: I tried building an artifact that would run a prompt and it couldn't because Claude didn't expose an API with cause headers that all of this stuff is so weird and complicated. And yeah, like that, that, the more that with the more tools we add, the more expertise you need to really, To understand the full scope of what you can do.[00:48:44] Simon: And so it's, it's, I wouldn't say it's, it's, it's, it's like, the question really comes down to what does it take to understand the full extent of what's possible? And honestly, that, that's just getting more and more involved over time.[00:48:58] Local LLMs: A Growing Interest[00:48:58] swyx (2): I have one more topic that I, I [00:49:00] think you, you're kind of a champion of and we've touched on it a little bit, which is local LLMs.[00:49:05] swyx (2): And running AI applications on your desktop, I feel like you are an early adopter of many, many things.[00:49:12] Simon: I had an interesting experience with that over the past year. Six months ago, I almost completely lost interest. And the reason is that six months ago, the best local models you could run, There was no point in using them at all, because the best hosted models were so much better.[00:49:26] Simon: Like, there was no point at which I'd choose to run a model on my laptop if I had API access to Cloud 3. 5 SONNET. They just, they weren't even comparable. And that changed, basically, in the past three months, as the local models had this step changing capability, where now I can run some of these local models, and they're not as good as Cloud 3.[00:49:45] Simon: 5 SONNET, but they're not so far away that It's not worth me even using them. The other, the, the, the, the continuing problem is I've only got 64 gigabytes of RAM, and if you run, like, LLAMA370B, it's not going to work. Most of my RAM is gone. So now I have to shut down my Firefox tabs [00:50:00] and, and my Chrome and my VS Code windows in order to run it.[00:50:03] Simon: But it's got me interested again. Like, like the, the efficiency improvements are such that now, if you were to like stick me on a desert island with my laptop, I'd be very productive using those local models. And that's, that's pretty exciting. And if those trends continue, and also, like, I think my next laptop, if when I buy one is going to have twice the amount of RAM, At which point, maybe I can run the, almost the top tier, like open weights models and still be able to use it as a computer as well.[00:50:32] Simon: NVIDIA just announced their 3, 000 128 gigabyte monstrosity. That's pretty good price. You know, that's that's, if you're going to buy it,[00:50:42] swyx (2): custom OS and all.[00:50:46] Simon: If I get a job, if I, if, if, if I have enough of an income that I can justify blowing $3,000 on it, then yes.[00:50:52] swyx (2): Okay, let's do a GoFundMe to get Simon one it.[00:50:54] swyx (2): Come on. You know, you can get a job anytime you want. Is this, this is just purely discretionary .[00:50:59] Simon: I want, [00:51:00] I want a job that pays me to do exactly what I'm doing already and doesn't tell me what else to do. That's, thats the challenge.[00:51:06] swyx (2): I think Ethan Molik does pretty well. Whatever, whatever it is he's doing.[00:51:11] swyx (2): But yeah, basically I was trying to bring in also, you know, not just local models, but Apple intelligence is on every Mac machine. You're, you're, you seem skeptical. It's rubbish.[00:51:21] Simon: Apple intelligence is so bad. It's like, it does one thing well.[00:51:25] swyx (2): Oh yeah, what's that? It summarizes notifications. And sometimes it's humorous.[00:51:29] Brian: Are you sure it does that well? And also, by the way, the other, again, from a sort of a normie point of view. There's no indication from Apple of when to use it. Like, everybody upgrades their thing and it's like, okay, now you have Apple Intelligence, and you never know when to use it ever again.[00:51:47] swyx (2): Oh, yeah, you consult the Apple docs, which is MKBHD.[00:51:49] swyx (2): The[00:51:51] Simon: one thing, the one thing I'll say about Apple Intelligence is, One of the reasons it's so disappointing is that the models are just weak, but now, like, Llama 3b [00:52:00] is Such a good model in a 2 gigabyte file I think give Apple six months and hopefully they'll catch up to the state of the art on the small models And then maybe it'll start being a lot more interesting.[00:52:10] swyx (2): Yeah. Anyway, I like This was year one And and you know just like our first year of iPhone maybe maybe not that much of a hit and then year three They had the App Store so Hey I would say give it some time, and you know, I think Chrome also shipping Gemini Nano I think this year in Chrome, which means that every app, every web app will have for free access to a local model that just ships in the browser, which is kind of interesting.[00:52:38] swyx (2): And then I, I think I also wanted to just open the floor for any, like, you know, any of us what are the apps that, you know, AI applications that we've adopted that have, that we really recommend because these are all, you know, apps that are running on our browser that like, or apps that are running locally that we should be, that, that other people should be trying.[00:52:55] swyx (2): Right? Like, I, I feel like that's, that's one always one thing that is helpful at the start of the [00:53:00] year.[00:53:00] Simon: Okay. So for running local models. My top picks, firstly, on the iPhone, there's this thing called MLC Chat, which works, and it's easy to install, and it runs Llama 3B, and it's so much fun. Like, it's not necessarily a capable enough novel that I use it for real things, but my party trick right now is I get my phone to write a Netflix Christmas movie plot outline where, like, a bunch of Jeweller falls in love with the King of Sweden or whatever.[00:53:25] Simon: And it does a good job and it comes up with pun names for the movies. And that's, that's deeply entertaining. On my laptop, most recently, I've been getting heavy into, into Olama because the Olama team are very, very good at finding the good models and patching them up and making them work well. It gives you an API.[00:53:42] Simon: My little LLM command line tool that has a plugin that talks to Olama, which works really well. So that's my, my Olama is. I think the easiest on ramp to to running models locally, if you want a nice user interface, LMStudio is, I think, the best user interface [00:54:00] thing at that. It's not open source. It's good.[00:54:02] Simon: It's worth playing with. The other one that I've been trying with recently, there's a thing called, what's it called? Open web UI or something. Yeah. The UI is fantastic. It, if you've got Olama running and you fire this thing up, it spots Olama and it gives you an interface onto your Olama models. And t

Dive into the vibrant world of startup marketing with Rebecca Fulton from Kliken. Discover the agility of startup culture, the art of crafting a brand's identity, and the intricacies of channel partnerships in this episode that's packed with insider insights and strategies for fostering business growth.Here are a few topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.Flexibility in startup marketing.Crafting a brand's identity.Tackling channel partnership growth.Overcoming marketing challenges.Insights on content strategy.Resources:KlikenPodcast ChefConnect with Rebecca Fulton:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:08:42 - Our CEO has been really instrumental in fostering those channel relationships and the partnerships throughout the years. So he's really kind of the frontline for that conversation. But we also, we have meetings or emails either weekly, monthly, quarterly with a lot of our business partners and say, okay, well what are you hearing that your customers need? How can we help that solution? Are you hearing that they need something we're not providing? And so we honestly are very interactive and we communicate a lot with our partners to make sure that what we're offering is solving a problem versus just assuming that everything is good as is.20:47 - And the third thing is not to spread yourself too thin. Again, there are a thousand different ways to market something. Don't try and do every shiny new platform that's out there. Don't try and make every type of content that is possible. I'm personally more of a content marketer than anything else, and I've learned that trying to create content that is more spread thin than, you know, very helpful, is kind of the downfall. So know where you want it, know who your audience is, know the type of content that they want and don't, and don't be everything to everyone.04:36 - And I found that if you go to the employees or the executives and say, okay, this is what I found. This is the trend that I see. These are the issues that I think that we can solve for, very easily. And this is kind of our low hanging fruit. It's very simple to get them all on board. The question, the more taxing problem, I suppose is that sometimes it's how we message it after that. So it's not as hard to get people on board with saying, okay, yeah, I agree that these are our problems or these are the things we can work on, or these are the things that are our strong suits.11:31 - I would say that a majority of our business comes direct from those channel partnerships. And that's again, because we built our business working with channels. We built our business working with partners and making sure that we had a solution that they could use for their customers. So that is why a majority of what we've always done has been part of channel. Now the direct-to-market stuff is growing. As I mentioned, click and ads is a newer product. It's only been out on the market for less than a year. And so I expect that that will grow significantly over time.05:32 - Rebecca: It's more of how do we then move forward and kind of adjust messaging or, you know, shift if we need to.Brian: So now you're working at Kliken and so what makes that business kind of hard to market?Rebecca: So Kliken is an online marketing platform. The thing that makes it hard to market is that it's an online marketing platform. There are a lot of them out there. People are often very confused as to who to choose, should they go with an agency? What's the difference between agency and a DIY platform, which is essentially what we are. Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the marketing mind of Garrett Hammonds! From teacher aspirations to a marketing maestro, Garrett unravels his journey and spills secrets about standing out in digital marketing. Discover B2B success, conference ROI, and crafting relationships that convert. Get your notepads ready!Here are a few topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.From teaching to marketing guru.Niche focus in digital marketing.ROI tracking in corporate events.Relationship building in B2B.Tools & insights for marketing success.Resources:Nomadic Marketing + SoftwarePodcast ChefConnect with Garrett Hammonds:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:08:38 - We didn't need something as large scale like a Salesforce or you know, a larger plan on something like a HubSpot. So ActiveCampaign helps us be able to automate what we need to keep people flowing through the pipeline. And that's where we keep up with the lifetime value as well. Other things that we use as tracking measures, we do use Zoom Info as a tool. So we know if companies that we have been keeping up with have visited our website, connects up perfect to GA IV and actually passes those parameters into the reports that we can have there. And then we also use Mixpanel. That one's gonna be just kind of a secondary backup to some of our other tracking. So if something ever goes down, we have mixed panel that can, you know, kind of act as a act as another system to pull in.11:47 -  Being a digital marketing agency, we have some different ways in which, you know, we've pulled in clients through free Google Ads audits and you know, there's all kinds of different pathways that we employ. But I think at the heart of all of that, even when looking at any kind of digital piece, it's always gonna need to come back to a core objective of how can I connect with these businesses, these business owners, the people, the humans on the other side, and really listen to the needs that they have and are we a good fit for helping them? And that's where that relationship piece comes in.10:14 - Garrett: Most of the ones we've gone to have been a big success though. But we've gone to specific industry conferences for the verticals that we serve. So staying away from more general professional conferences and going to very, very specific industry vertical conferences.Brian: So you're using those conferences to nurture relationships, you're continuing to grow the referrals you already had and you're increasing your lifetime value for your current client base. And I think that's like,as a three-legged stool, that's a really a great approach.17:45 - Other clients, people are just searching for very, very specific things on search engines you know, finding a very specific industry publication, we've crossed over at times with traditional marketing and magazine things. It really just depends and it's really important for anybody who's trying to market their business to know your market and what it looks like and know your audience. And it's gonna be one of my, one of my big themes that you may hear from me that, that relationship that links back to knowing your audience.20:22 - It's central because the audience at the end of the day, drives demand and their needs, whether they are always initially aware of them or not, their needs are the thing that is going to make it to where you can actually provide solutions for them. Not make sales, but offer solutions. And I think that's key as well, knowing your skills and your tools. One of the most foundational things that have helped me grow in my career has been this one, knowing tools. I didn't of course graduate with a marketing degree Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the realm of digital marketing mastery with Kevin Daisey, Founder and CMO of Array Digital. This episode of the Hard to Market podcast peels back the layers on harnessing podcasting for organic leads, the power of niching down, and leadership in marketing. Get the inside scoop as Kevin unravels how to cultivate lucrative relationships and elevate your brand!Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.Podcasting is a key to organic leads.Importance of niching down.The art of lifting leaders.Building real connections through podcasting.Integration of AI in podcasting.Resources:Array DigitalPodcast ChefConnect with Kevin Daisey:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:18:51 - But you know, you could take an audio of yourself that you don't have a video of and create a video with AI so you can take some of the content you've created and use an AI, produce it as articles, social content, all kinds of stuff. And so we have such a library of topics and recordings that we've already done the work on, and now you can take that and repurpose and do things with it. But AI could be a huge part there to leverage.17:35 - That is, you know, AI-generated, or I saw a podcast between two AIs the other day, role-playing as like Einstein and Jean-Paul Sartre or something, and it was like, holy crap. So, I think it's important to understand that there's some meaningful distinctions there between the work that you do, the work that I do, and podcasting at large, particularly the entertainment style stuff.14:47 - Brian: So what I guess, what I want to hear next is a little bit more about what's next, right? So you talked about the amount of opportunity that is created and where it's going. What's next for your podcast? How do you view that integrating with the business even further? And where does it go from here?Kevin: Yeah, yeah, good point. Well, you know, I'd like to, you know, we're about to put some more energy and money behind promotion of the podcast to get it out to other, more people. Probably polish up some things. You can look at my background right now. It's, you know, so we're gonna put a little bit more spit shine on it, I guess.26:35 - But I think applying pieces of it and actually doing it over time, and there's no secret, there's a lot of little things you gotta get, right? So if you're running a business, there's lots of people that have done it. Talk to them, get mentors, talk to people, get a group mastermind, and just immerse yourself. But there's a lot of little things you gotta do. It's either hire people to do 'em or you gotta do 'em yourself. And that's what it takes. That's just it. There's no secret sauce here. That's a big lesson there.30:54 - We want things to be different. I mean, they said it in Age of Ultra, right? The Marvel movie, I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. They say it like, you want things to change, you want things to be different, but you don't want them to change. It's that, it's perfect, right? You keep thinking like, oh yeah, I definitely want this outcome, but you don't want to, you don't want the discomfort of change required to make that outcome occur. So do you really, you know, is it a wish at that point or is it a reality that you're willing to make happen? And I think you've encapsulated it very well. Like all of the stuff is out there. Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the world of Out-of-Home media with Rick Robinson! Learn how PJX Media brings stories to life, from bustling billboards to engaging campaigns. Get insider know-how on attracting clients, navigating industry complexities, and the art of grabbing consumer attention. All in this fascinating, info-packed session!Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.Understanding out-of-home media.The strategy behind client engagement.Impress with award-winning campaigns.Data-driven decisions in advertising.Growth-driving tips for marketers.Resources:PJX MediaPodcast ChefConnect with Rick Robinson:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:15:55 - Rick: And we have the best success. Once you start investing further and start rising the tide, so to speak, you'll need help. And that's where complexity comes in and where our value proposition really makes a difference. Brian: Yeah, you have, I mean obviously when you go from a local to a larger market, you have differentiation. You've gotta deal with, you've got all sorts of, you know, the attribution problems, like we discussed the attention mechanics. And I think it really makes a ton of sense to start to get help at the very least in that context, minimally prior to that, you're suggesting that the kinds of services you would provide at a national or large regional level would be best delivered by a local distributor.03:35 - Rick: So on the attraction side, it's, you know, doing great work for the clients. We already have nurturing and creating opportunity for those clients. So they stay with us, we can retain the business. And when they move to other agencies or brands, they're very likely to use this. So that's a very nurture, create mindset.Brian: Referral side. Yeah.Rick: And that's key. That's really the core and the foundation. And then on the promotion side, we're very active on LinkedIn with thought leadership, with expressions of work we do, examples of work we do calling out where we've been recognized for award-winning work and things like that. And then we have a new business team that's very aggressive with an email marketing formula and a lot of cold and slightly cold, barely warm outreach15:55 -  Rick: I think in both cases it'll give you a good sense of the lay of the land. If you're a smaller local advertiser, it just wants to buy one billboard at a time, you know, you can work with your local billboard companies, right? And we have the best success. Once you start investing further and start rising the tide, so to speak, you'll need help. And that's where complexity comes in and where our value proposition really makes a difference.Brian: Yeah, you have, I mean obviously when you go from a local to a larger market, you have differentiation. You've gotta deal with.02:49 - Rick: You make sure you get the production organized and you get it up on, whether it's the printed panel or the screen.Brian: So you're in the middle of that doing the strategic sort of maneuvering and the project planning. Is that what I'm hearing?Rick: Yeah. Our clients come to us for really two things for expertise. 'cause as you noted, it's a very fragmented, diverse supply side and bandwidth, the energy time to organize all of it and make it happen.06:32 - And what you try to do along the way is create value. When you reach out to these folks in a more or less cold manner, you want to make sure that what you're bringing them is of interest and you've done some homework and you're providing a reward for their attention. And so that gives you a chance to engage. And then once you do, you can transform that relationship. It can, it can become a consultative relationship as opposed to a transactional moment. Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

Jump into the vibrant journey of Shoppable's creation with Founder Heather Udo. Unveil the strategies behind securing powerhouse clients like the Wall Street Journal, fostering advisory networks, and scaling a unique three-sided marketplace. Dive in for the savvy insights on profit, sales, and team-building that propelled her start-up to thrive against all odds.Here are a few topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.Wall Street Journal as the first client.Advisory board game-changer.Tech for anything shoppable.Network effect boosts growth.Importance of focusing on profit and sales.Resources:ShoppablePodcast ChefConnect with Heather Marie Udo:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:1:43 - So one, I brought on incredible advisors onto to Shoppable advisory board to help open up doors. So for a little bit of context, Shoppable is a three-sided marketplace. So something that is incredibly difficult to do and a lot of venture capitalists will say, oh, it's not possible2:56 - So anyway, so we had to, we had the challenge of having to solve both sides of that marketplace and solved that by building out an incredible advisory board. So one of the advisors we brought on had a very, very extensive background in the publishing space, working with the top publishers in the country and bringing her on board. She was able to open up doors and help me get meetings and credibility with these top-name publishers out of the gate.1:42 - Brian: How did you get your first customer with Shoppable?Heather: So, great question. My first customer was our launch partner was the Wall Street Journal, and we were very, very fortunate to be able to have them as our launch partner in order to secure that, that partnership or any great launch partner. We did a couple things that really changed the game for us.2:46 - Heather: But then we also needed publisher customers that could utilize the technology on their sites to sell it to the end consumer. So anyway, we had to, we had the challenge of having to solve both sides of that marketplace and solved that by building out an incredible advisory board. So one of the advisors we brought on had a very, very extensive background in the publishing space, working with the top publishers in the country and bringing her on board. She was able to open up doors and help me get meetings and credibility with these top-name publishers out of the gate. So we actually almost had another launch partner that also wanted to be our launch partner. They ended up not being able to move forward in it as fast as the Wall Street Journal did, but that's really how we were able to first get our foot, you know, get our foot in the door was through our advisory network.Brian: So you networked your way, into your great first client.3:51 -  Brian: So you networked your way, into your great first client. How, how are you managing to scale? I mean, are you still using that networking strategy to get to the next level as it were?Heather: Yeah, the networking strategy has worked really well for us on both sides of the marketplace. So we also used the advisory board to, help unlock doors at, within our first retail partners so that we had their products to sell within Shoppable platform. Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

Brian Lee, from Through Cohort and Broken to Beloved Summit interviews Tears of Eden's Founder Katherine Spearing about the Church's harmful teachings on marriage that can result in very real trauma—for single and married people. Transcript (Unedited for Typos and Misspellings)Brian: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome to our session. I'm here with Katherine Spearing. Katherine is the founder of Tears of Eden, a non profit supporting survivors of spiritual abuse, and the host of Tears affiliate podcast Uncertain. She also hosts the podcast Trauma and Pop Culture, and is a certified trauma recovery coach, working primarily with clients who have survived cults, High control environments, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse.She also provides specialized trauma informed career coaching, as folks with trauma often need extra support for interviewing and networking, which I can attest to. Catherine is the author of a historical romantic comedy, which we talked about last year, Hartford's, a novel that challenges gender roles in a patriarchal society that will appeal to fans of Jane Austen.And she's been a guest on a number of podcasts. including indoctrination, and that's so effed up. She's the author of several non fiction articles and writes regularly at katherinespearing. com and tearsofeden. org. Welcome back, welcome back. [00:01:00] Very excited, Katherine: very excited. Me too. Brian: So we're here to talk today about being single within the context of faith communities, which is a big I don't know anywhere else that I really hear about this talked about, so I'm excited to dive into it.What is it like for a single person within these communities? Katherine: Right, yeah, and I think on the subject of it not being talked about very much, I definitely looked, obviously, that's who I am. So I have looked for books on this particular topic, and they all tend to have this, like, this like, consolation prize flair to it.Like You're a single, but you didn't want this. So here's some tips for being happy despite the situation that you find yourself in as if it's like. So so sad. And so haven't haven't read a lot where I was just like, Oh, like I'm empowered. I'm inspired. I'm [00:02:00] encouraged very, very rarely. And then also just within this topic that I'm very, I'm very passionate about just living a thriving life wherever you are and being very present wherever you are, no matter.Single or not, and I think 1 of the things that I have discovered through just the work that I do with religious trauma and spiritual abuse survivors is that to say, hey, like, it's, you know, really important to live a thriving life here. Here are tools to live a thriving life to then. Ignore the systemic issues that then make it difficult to have a thriving life.It's kind of, it's just half of the story. And so there's a lot of. Messaging towards singles of just like be content and be happy within faith communities without acknowledging the things that then make it difficult to be happy. And one example is [00:03:00] I learned very, very young that it was okay for me to be single, but it was okay for me to be single only.If I was unhappy about being single and only I was actively seeking to change that status and at the same time be happy being single and so rejoice in this lot that God has given you, but then also actively seek to change it and actively. Date and actively ask for prayer for your future husband. So, it's very, very stark cognitive dissonance happening within these communities.I also, my, my vocation was ministry and the perspective that I'm coming from for this conversation is. The even growing up in the evangelical church and being in that evangelical perspective, also choosing a vocation of ministry and and being in that for almost a decade. [00:04:00] And and so I think I experienced some of this a little bit more acutely because.I was in ministry and, and happened to be in denominations that were just much more male friendly. And so having being a woman and then also being a single woman some of the stuff I experienced a little bit more acutely. So that's, that's the example that I'm, the perspective that I'm coming from and, and then we'll occasionally use just some stories and examples from clients and, and friends of mine who've also experienced this as well.And. But, yeah, so 1st of full time vocational ministry experience was on the mission field in Mexico. I'm 28 years old. I am the only single woman on this fairly large missions team. I went down. To help plant a church that was like my specific reason for going and the, there was a [00:05:00] headquarters office that I went to every day as part of my work and and, and pretty much right away things like they would have a team meeting for.The church plant, and I was not invited and I, I, I was actively a part of the missions team and would like, go to the office and work in the mission field. All the other women missionaries were. worked at home and were, you know, took care of their children and took care of their homes. They were not actively coming into the offices.They were invited to this missions team. And so right off the bat, I was like different here. Exactly. Just instantly. And in Mexico, the. The that's hierarchy of, of marriage and marital status is even more extreme, I would say, than [00:06:00] than in the, like the South, which is also pretty extreme and.And yet nobody was like, Hmm, it's weird that you're not there. It was like, there was no, and I decided not to make an issue about it, that particular thing. But I was still expected to show up, you know, to church an hour early and help set up and put the coffee on. So I was still a part of this team and help lead the Bible studies and all that sort of stuff, but not part of the planning, not offered a seat at the table.And, and it wasn't a gender thing. It was. The only thing I can think of. A singleness thing. I'm not married. And I think that that was something that I experienced constantly throughout my faith community experience was like, we not a, there's something wrong with you so much, but as a, but a, we don't know what to do with you.Like, we don't know [00:07:00] what category to put you in. Another example was, I was volunteering. Very actively, this is before I went to Mexico in the youth ministry, and I was very, very actively involved in the youth ministry again, like late 20s, considering youth ministry as a potential avenue for ministry.If I did go into full time ministry, and the church that I attended did not have like, singles groups and young marrieds and it was just kind of all adult classes and they were topical, which I think is great and. There was a parenting class, and I thought I'm gonna work. I'm working with youth. 50 percent of that is working with parents and.And then it was targeting like young marriage. Who are my peers? Like some of them are the same age as me. Mm-Hmm. . Some of them are a little bit older, some of them are a little younger. And so it made perfect sense to me that I would go [00:08:00] to this class, which I did, and a week class, I had friends who were leading this class.A married couple that was leading the class, leading the class. And so I knew them and then there was an older couple in the class who had already raised their children and they were there because they wanted to connect to younger families. And they were the only people that talked to me, nobody else talked to me.And it was so. obvious that as soon as there would be like a break or the class would end they would like huddle like so fast it was like like very very quickly just just like ah we don't don't leave us alone yeah with that one we don't Brian: we don't know what to do with her Katherine: we don't know what to do with her and so i'll always feeling that Experience and, and many years later, I worked in [00:09:00] California, which is a very different culture and and I had a very good experience as a single person in California.And I started to wonder after a few years being there, did I make that up? Was that my imagination? Like, like, maybe it wasn't as bad. Maybe it was my insecurity. Like, maybe, you know, I, I felt weird. And so that's why I thought these people were ignoring me or whatever. And then I was in in LA during the biggest part of COVID.So didn't really interact with many people and thought, Oh, maybe I just made it up. Maybe if I go into the spaces and I'm just like super confident, like, they'll be fine. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought. And, and yet, even now, when I go into certain communities, and I would say probably the biggest one right now is as extended family that is in the South.And it is a much more just like, Nuclear family focused. [00:10:00] Everything is focused on that and you get married and you have kids and then you raise the kids and they go to college and then they get married and they have kids and then they raise their kids and their kids go to college and then they get married and they have kids and that's just a cycle and rinse and repeat and I would go, go to, go to events, go to weddings, go to funerals, be around this, this community of people and It, I was like, it's still here.It's, it's still real. And, and after like three hours of talking about feeding schedules and potty training, I'm sitting there like, okay, I have a pretty cool life. A lot of cities. I started this nonprofit. I have a book out. I have a podcast. Like I'm a pretty interesting person. No questions, zero interest in my life outside of how much I can engage with their life.And so it's very, it was [00:11:00] very, it's very, very obvious in those. In certain contexts that there's this otherness and this marginalization and just like you're different and rather in engaging with that difference, we're just going to draw a distance and at best you're ignored at worst, they're actively trying to get you to change who you are and change your marital status and try to figure out what's wrong with you that you're not married.Right, that is how that is. Brian: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. And I'm, I'm sorry that happened to you and that's not at all alienating. Right? My goodness. Well, and I remember working at a church as a young single man. And I was the worship leader at the time, but it was just. It is a lot of that alienating feeling of, well, who can we hook you up with?When are you going to [00:12:00] get married? Let's pray for your future wife. And all these things, it's like, and there was a big part of me that wanted to get married, but there was also a big part of me. It's like, but this is kind of, I'm fine with this right now. This is the season of life I'm in. And why is there always this need to rush?People through these stages of life that may not be for them at all, because even once you're married, then it's the whole train of, oh, well, when are you going to have kids? And then once you have another one, and then it's like, some people are just never satisfied, right? There's this, there's this weird hierarchy of.Having arrived as a human and it's, I can't even imagine cause I'm not one, but I, it's so much worse for women because not only do you have to get married, but then once you are someday a wife, if you don't become a mother, then you're not really a whole woman and all these other things that I've heard that are just so harmful in these faith communities.Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then the difference, there is a different flavor, but I think between like a male [00:13:00] experience and a female experience. And I remember going to seminary and, and the church planting, there's like a church planting portion of the seminary that I went to and I loved church planting and I thought it was really cool.Well, I was told. You know, you'd be a really good church planter if you were a man. The men were told, don't church plant unless you're married. Like, don't do that. Like, that's, I would not advise doing that. Like, you can't do it unless you're bound to another person or you have a wife to do 50 percent of your free labor.So the pressure, like you're not fully Incubated yet. Brian: Yeah, unlike, you know, Paul or Jesus or so, you know, for all this stuff that's going on in the churches in different faith communities. Why does this stuff happening Katherine: matter? I think the biggest reason why it matters is [00:14:00] it can result in very real trauma to, to constantly feel like you don't fit.Yep. And constantly feel like You are not enough all by yourself. Mm-Hmm. . And that, that that can result in, you know, when you're, you know, supposed to, trying to embrace your life and, and be confident. And be secure and, and love who you are, where you are. And then you're surrounded by people who are looking at you like you're really strange or just like.Saying things like, well, do you even want to get married or accusing you of being too picky or, or constantly receiving this message of you're not fully. You haven't fully arrived yet. You're not a full, complete human. And, and then as you mentioned, I think that this can have just like [00:15:00] implications for just like the wider community as well, of, of people getting married when they're not ready to get married and I, it happens.I am so grateful and honored. That enough people have shared with me that they got married too soon. And enough people have shared with me that the reason they got married was because they were dating someone who wanted to marry them and they were afraid someone else wasn't going to come along. And so they locked it down and, and enough people who have admitted that, which means there's probably a lot of more people who have never.Admitted that because of how much pressure there is like a man saying, hey, you can't plan a church unless you're married. Okay. Let me just find someone to marry me. Oh, maybe in an ideal world. That would never happen. Well, it does happen. And, and there is so much [00:16:00] pressure to, and people end up in these relationships that are Not necessarily healthy because they haven't had a chance to differentiate.And the messaging around marriage and the nuclear family can lead to a lot of enmeshment in marriage and, and people who aren't able to, to create individual identities because they're so wrapped up in, in that, in that partnership for women. It results in a lot of them just surrendering their power and surrendering their agency the minute that they're in that relationship.And, and I have friends now who are in their forties and fifties who are learning about their, themselves and their identity as an individual for the very first time, because they just got married so young, they never had an opportunity to figure out who they were and what they really [00:17:00] liked and. I have friends who have told me, and this makes me very sad, that their predominant emotion once they got married Wasn't joy and wasn't excitement.It was relief. That makes me so sad that it's like, it's over like, so, so sad. And speak so loudly of the amount of pressure and the, and the. Miseries to some extent of being single in these faith communities that isn't self inflicted. A lot of times parts of it. Sure. But, but a lot of it is, is the community itself of not not having.And I have a dozen stories similar to the Mexico story of just like not having a seat at the table simply because well, part of its gender and part of it was marital status and and not being Treated as if I didn't have anything to [00:18:00] offer because, because I wasn't married. And if you are in those communities all the time, you have no other reference.You'll start to believe it. It's really hard to not believe when you're getting that inundated with that messaging, that there's something wrong with me and I don't have anything to offer. Why? Why would I want to be at the church planting meeting? I'm not married. I don't have anything to offer that that type of experience.And it's very, it doesn't just impact single people. I believe very firmly that this. This mentality impacts the wider faith community as well. And as you mentioned, just like, you know, you get married and then it's like when you're going to have kids and the same thing for child free people. Like, you're allowed to be child free, but only if you're actively seeking to change it.Right? Yet also be content with your child freeness, but also be trying to change it. And then my sister, first baby. Baby wasn't [00:19:00] even barely out of the womb and people are asking her when her second child is coming. Yeah, when's the next one? When's the next one? It's like never enough, it's never enough, never enough, never Brian: enough.Yeah, man. It just speaks to how broken these systems are and how flawed the theology is of identity, of wholeness, like you're talking about, of, of, like you're saying, the whole individuation and differentiation piece. It's like, I, you know, you tell your, that story about all the things about Mexico and all these other places.And it's like, and you know, joining these different small groups or Sunday school classes I think of that quote from Walt Whitman or Ted Lasso or whoever you want to say it's from about being curious, not judgmental, right? And so often people in these faith communities default to a position of judgment or assumption, [00:20:00] right?Oh, this poor single person, they must be miserable. Let's adopt them and then try to find every eligible. Whatever, to pair them up with. Parade them, parade them across. Yeah. Well, and then by doing that, you turn them into a thing instead of a person, right? Because they become, you become their project, which never feels good.Never. And then you, you add on the layer of what harm purity culture has done to the church through the 80s and 90s. And all these people, like you're saying, get married young out of a sense of relief to escape the trap of singleness. And then, or they just get married so they finally have sex. Which is awful because they've known nothing about it and weren't ready for it, right?And then, you know, in the 80s and 90s, there was so much vitriol and defense against divorce. And nowadays, Christians are the exact same statistic as everyone else. It's so, so Katherine: common. Yeah, and I mean, and that is one of the [00:21:00] ways that it impacts the wider community as well, is because there are so many divorced people, widowed people, they're single.And, and they're back in that, you know, phase after being married. And it's again, like, what do we do with you? Yeah. Like. Let's find you someone else to marry, like, let's say the cycle starts again and, and it's not, it's not that, it's not a guarantee that marriage A will happen or B will last and, and, and that, and that ability, as you said, to have that curiosity.A kind curiosity. Not a what's wrong with you, but a tell me about your life. Tell me how you feel about this. And, and giving, giving that space [00:22:00] for people to be different and willingness and that judgment tends to come from a place of fear. We, we fear the thing we don't understand. If someone gets married at 22.And has never known a life of singleness, they're not going to know what it's like and so it's going to be very different. It's going to be an anomaly and it's so much, it's easier to just not engage and like, and it's safer. To not engage to some extent of just, you know, I'll let her talk to her people and I'll talk to my people and, and it's very sad to me because it's a very, it can be very isolating, I think, and, and very.What's the word? Yeah, just like, just very kind of, kind of stagnant and, and [00:23:00] oppressive to, to surround ourselves with people who are just like us and in the same stage as us and can talk about all of the things that we talk about. And, and there it's, I think that it's challenging to grow when, when you are.Surrounded by people who are just like you doing all of the things that you do and and how much more vibrant and colorful life is when we can engage with people who are different than us and single people are forced to do that. Because we're often alone or marginalized in these communities. And so we're constantly seeing things from the perspective of the married person, the people with the family, we're able to engage in those conversations about feedings and, and potty training because everyone's doing it [00:24:00] and, and it does take a little more effort from that parent who has, you From that world and, and look around and see there are other people out there and there are other, there are other stories in the world.And I, I mean, I was raised in a very fundamentalist world that was very isolating and very much like feared the outside world and feared people who were different than us and didn't believe the same things that we believed. So it was not because of nurture. Unless it was rebellion, potentially that I love.Encountering people who are different than me. Like I love encountering different cultures. I love encountering people who have, you know, jobs that I've never had different, different lifestyles, different cities, country. Like I just, I love engaging with people who are different and I [00:25:00] find it to be such a fulfilling experience to have so many people that are so different from me.in my life. It's amazing. And I'm sad for extended family and in the South who cannot engage with conversation outside of their bubble. That makes me sad, you know, personally, but then also just like, you don't get to know me. Yeah. Brian: Well, and you know, microcosms of. These echo chambers where this tiny little community's behaviors become normalized and then you view everyone else like you're saying as the outsider as the other and like, well, that's weird when really it's like, actually, it's your little group that you can't see outside of right?So, so how do we break out of that? Like, what can, what can be done? Katherine: Right? Well, I would say just. Speaking to two different audiences and I would say for, I mean, I mean, really for anyone, but for [00:26:00] a single person, I would say, and I've had to do this, actively surround yourself with people who are for you and not for you, but They would prefer that something about you change specifically your marital status.And, and, and they're not constantly trying to set you up or find someone for you. There's nothing wrong with that. And I, I mean, and setups happen within the single community too. Like I. A friend of mine the other day, like, showed me two people in a dating app who are in my community. And and I just, you know, gave her my opinion.Like, this person, they are great, but I really don't think that you would enjoy them. But this person, the little that I know about them, I think that it could be a good fit. And we're not, like, hoarding all the single people. Like, I'm like, I know these two people aren't a good fit for me. They might be a good fit.I've, you know, connect friends in other [00:27:00] cities. Like, Hey, so and so lives in your city. Y'all should get coffee. Brian: Well, and I imagine the big difference is that it's invited, right? Instead of imposed. Katherine: Yes. She showed me the people on her dating app. I'm like. Asked my opinion. 100%, 100 percent that the invitation has been given.And it also within the context of actually knowing the person, not just, Hey, this person is single. Yes. That's good. Together. Yeah. You actually know what would be good for them. And, and so surrounding yourself with people who Campioning you excited for you excited for your life, and I, I have actively had to do that and have had to seek out people and fill my life with people who are on my team and cheering me on and there are some people in my life who still find it a little strange, you know, [00:28:00] my.Marital status, but they're, they, they have kind of moved to being more of a, an acquaintance simply because of, of, of that particular part of it is that it's not, I'm not fully accepted in their eyes and they're not fully able to engage with my life right now. And so that might happen. And it's challenging, but it's also absolutely 100 percent worth it to be surrounded by people who are for you.And then for just like the wider community, I think just cultivating, as you have already stated, curiosity and a interest and people who are different, and that will serve. across the board for any marginalized community of just being willing to engage and ask questions and not treat like a [00:29:00] project as you, as you mentioned, as someone that I need to fix or my token single friend.Yay! I have one. Well, the Brian: other thought I just had is like, or what I often see in churches or faith communities is that the single people get treated as free labor. Because they're single. So you must have all the free time in the world to go volunteer for this thing or take care of this thing. And it's like, can we also stop doing that, please?Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't mention this at the top of the conversation, but in that same church planting experience in Mexico, usually when you start a church, first thing you need is a pastor. And then the next thing you need is a worship leader. And then the next thing you need is a children's minister.And I saw it coming. I saw it coming. I was like, no, I was like, I drew, I was like, I don't care if I get fired. No . Yeah. I will not be in charge. Yep. Of Brian: children's mission. Well, and I've heard horror stories from missionaries on the field who, [00:30:00] for their team meetings or staff meetings, same kind of a thing for the single people who were there as part of the team.Fully part of the team. Mm-Hmm. don't get invited to meetings because they are expected to stay behind and babysit for all the married couples kids, it's like. What, you know, what is that Katherine: I did during the team meeting? What is Brian: that? Exactly. Yeah. And it's just, you know, and you know, you're a trauma recovery coach night.I don't think either of us are actually therapists or counselors, but, you know, when I think of not just trauma, but complex trauma, like the CPTSD part, it's, it's when these little traumas are drip by drip happening over and over and over again, over an extended period of time. And so it makes sense why.We get indoctrinated with these ideas or why it's so hard to break out of those kinds of systems or Find and surround ourselves with these people who are curious about us and for us and all those things who? Want a real identity? for our single friends [00:31:00] Or single people that we don't know that we want to become friends with.And it's like, I just want to know who you are. I don't care that you're single or not single or a wife or not a mother yet, or any of these things, like it applies to pretty much every stage of life. If we would allow people to just be people and not projects. We would go a long way. I Katherine: think. Absolutely.Yeah. Just let what? Yeah. And that just simple curiosity of just letting someone be who they are. And, and maybe they will share that they really do want to get married and, and they are sad and hold space for them in their sadness as you would hold space for anyone grieving. Yeah. And, and not necessarily, Yeah.Okay, let's fix this. Let's find someone for you. Like that's grief like any other kind of grief. Yeah. And, and let's let, let's grieve together rather than. Yeah. Seek to find [00:32:00] the thing that will take this pain away because it's, it's not going to take the pain away really. It's, there's going to be something else, you know, like we're never.We're never, and I think I learned that recently from the the speaker at the retreat con for Tours de Vida in our first in person event. And she just, she talked about thriving and she gave us this, this grid of all these different like seasons of life and stages of life and your career and then your family and then your relationships and then your friends and then your church community and like all these different, you know, bubbles of our.You know, acquaintances and, and spheres of our lives. And, and she was like, you're never going to be thriving in every single one. Yeah, and that doesn't mean you're not thriving. Yeah. Just to have a few that are not going well does not mean you're not thriving. And it was really, really helpful because I felt like I was always searching for the state of equilibrium and which [00:33:00] everything was going well.All the time. We're never going to be in that place, whether we are married or single or otherwise. And so, so being willing to hold that space for someone wherever they are in that and not try to fix it just as we would for anything else. And not treat it like it's this other thing, like we don't, this disease to some extent.So let's stay Brian: away and yeah, well, and you briefly touched on it earlier, but the idea of singleness is not just about I've never been married before or been on a date or any of those things, but it's it's also people who have been divorced or widowed or whatever those things are. And it's like when we allow them to just be people.And grieve with them in that process, if they are grieving, right? And then not jump to try to solve their problem of, Oh no, you're single and alone again. How do we set you up with someone else? It's like, no, that's not the answer. It's like, be curious, ask, like, Has anyone asked what they actually want? [00:34:00] Or are looking for?Or are they perfectly happy being single? Or is it a married couple completely happy never having kids? Yes, whatever the situation is, right? And I think there's so much that can be said for Meeting people where they are and on allowing them to be where they are in the season that Katherine: they're in. Yeah.And then I think just to kind of wrap it up of in order to be willing to accept someone where we are, we, I think we have to acknowledge some of that theology that has been ingrained into us that dictates this mentality that marriage singleness and parenthood is more ideal than. Being trialed free and, and the people who have been told that they're selfish for not wanting children or you're not a full complete human being until you're married and joined to another person those, those messages are very damaging and, and that is where that trauma comes from.So some of it's [00:35:00] just. It's cultural. I'm like just swimming in it and that's just the way it is. But some of it actually comes from really damaging messaging about deep things. And that might be something that people need to wrestle with before they can even get to that place. Of accepting someone who's different because if it's like, you're not just different.There's actually something wrong with you and you're actually doing something wrong by not having kids or you're actually doing something wrong by getting divorced or, or, or something like that, then it's going to be hard to engage. So that might be something that folks just need to. Wrestle with and yeah, figure out what they Brian: believe.Yeah, that's really good as we wrap up you mentioned your retreat con. Would you tell us more about Katherine: it? Woohoo. Yes. So tears of eden is As mentioned earlier is the non profit for survivors of spiritual abuse and from folks from the evangelical Community primarily. We had our [00:36:00] first in person event in October.And one of the things that Tears of Eden does is we do provide resources to sort of name that experience. But we do seek to be trauma informed. And one of the things that is helpful for healing trauma is, is integration between our minds and our bodies and engaging our bodies in that healing process.And so we had a speaker and she was. A phenomenal, wonderful person. And then and then we also had just very embodied workshops when normally you would go to, you know, maybe a small group and like, sit and listen again in a workshop all of these workshops are very active embodied workshops. We had yoga.We had improv. We had dance. We had a story jam, which is this live storytelling event and that Opportunity for people to tell stories and have an audience engage with them. Just a very embodied event and it was so cool. It was so fun. It was I hope everyone who is a survivor gets [00:37:00] that experience of being in person.With someone who's also had that experience. There's something extremely special about just like meeting someone and knowing instantly that they get it. It's just, there's nothing like it. It's, it's really, really cool. So yeah, everyone gets to do it Brian: sometimes. I love it. Congratulations on getting to do that.Yes, it was great. It was very exciting. Where can people find you or RetreatCon Katherine: online? So my personal website is katherinespearing. com and my main social media presence is on Instagram at katherinespearing. And Tears of Eden is tearsofeden. org. We also have a podcast and the main social media presence for Tears of Eden is the Uncertain Podcast at, at Uncertain Podcast on Instagram as well.So check it out. Brian: Awesome. We'll provide the links for everyone down in the session notes. Catherine, thank you so much for participating again and helping move toward healing Katherine: and [00:38:00] wholeness. Wonderful. Thanks for having me.

Several property managers find themselves feeling alone in their difficult market. It might feel impossible to grow after being stagnant for so long. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with DoorGrow client Brian Bean to talk about how he grew his property management business despite the challenges he faced. You'll Learn [01:55] Getting started in property management [06:20] Making business partnerships work [09:47] Shifting from real estate to property management [18:21] What's next for your property management business? Tweetables “It's really difficult for partnerships to be successful because for most people, the ego is getting in the way.” “What you focus on is what you get.” “Until we learn how to get and find people that we feel safe with, I don't think we're supposed to trust.” “When you get really great people, it's not hard to trust them.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Brian: After 10 years of just being flat from 30 to 35 units. And then now literally doubled it last week. And that's been from following your instruction, your philosophies and you know, focusing on building this business.  [00:00:15] Jason: Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower, property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:58] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, Build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:18] So our guest today we're hanging out with Brian Bean, who is one of our clients and Brian your company is Dream Big Property Management.  [00:01:28] Brian: That's right. We're in Merced, California.  [00:01:30] Jason: All right. In Merced, California. So Brian welcome to the show. Oh, Riverside. You said Riverside. [00:01:37] Okay. Got it. I know this area. So yeah, I grew up in Rancho Cucamonga. So just a little bit near there. So Brian tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got into property management and then eventually how you stumbled across DoorGrow, I guess.  [00:01:55] Brian: Right, so, I was a newspaper editor and reporter and I got a job, grew up in the Pacific Northwest, got a journalism degree, got a job in Palm Springs on the Daily Newspaper, and moved to California in the 80s. [00:02:11] And so I did that for 13 or 14 years toward the end I, you know, coming from an entrepreneurial background, my uncle gave me my first, second, third job when I was a kid he owned a, like, old style service station. So I grew up in that small business atmosphere. And when I went to work in newspapers, you know, I had these lofty aspirations, these utopian ideas, you know, you're getting your twenties about doing something to change the world or, you know, to have an impact. And I found out after about 10 years, that was just, it's just another corporate job. And so I was looking around for something else and I looked at a lot of different businesses. [00:02:55] And I ended up coming upon real estate and I was able to, while I was a newspaper editor, I was able to buy five, two five unit apartment buildings in Palm Spring. Nice. And that was my introduction to property management. I was pretty much doing that during the day. We were putting out newspapers in a, from like three in the afternoon to midnight, you know, the press would roll at midnight and and I did it all, you know, I, from everything from dealing with the tenants face to, you know, patch and drywall to whatever collecting rents, chasing rents, made all the mistakes. [00:03:33] And I was, it was self education trial by fire. And then a few years later, I went into real estate full time and sales. I had a partner in the apartments who was actually the listing agent on those apartments at the time, but he invited me into real estate full time in 2001. [00:03:49] And then we were off on a, and it was a run. And so I, I did property management for a while from on our own properties. And then I've just morphed into sales and we were pretty successful and very busy and then the market crashed, and you know, we just kind of moved with the market.  [00:04:08] Jason: And when was that? [00:04:09] Like 2006,  [00:04:11] Brian: maybe, or?  [00:04:11] Yeah. So 2006 at least in our area, it was August, 2006 when we peaked sales wise. And in 2007, we had, I don't know, a dozen listings and nobody, you couldn't buy a showing, you know? And so 2007, it was the real estate market was, you know, dead man walking. It was, there was nobody really knew what was happening? Well, the masses, right? Some people knew, right? There was stuff going on obviously on wall street, but, the masses didn't know what was happening. Prices stayed up for awhile and they were, it was just like that, that hovering just before the, you know, you throw a ball in the air and it just kind of floats at the apex for a moment right before 2008 and then wow. [00:04:54] Right. Who knew? Yeah. So, You we just kind of morphed with it. I've worked, I did a lot of, I helped a lot of people with short sales, we worked in foreclosures and. And then I met my current business partner in sales working in an REO house as a buyer's agent. And we started our own company, Dream Big Real Estate, and that was 2008, 2009. [00:05:15] So from there, a couple of years later I just happened to say to my partner, you know, even though we were very busy, I said, "I really think we should launch a property management division" because at that time, my mentality was, it's a place where we can create sales listings, right? [00:05:35] And so we did that for a few years. And, you know, the interesting thing about it was that we didn't do any marketing. It was just really word of mouth, but. The day that I mentioned that to my partner, Tim, he just said, "yeah, cool, whatever." Right. he knew I was going to probably be working on it because I had the background in it, but I didn't tell anybody. [00:05:55] And the next day the phone rang and our first property management client just was calling out of the blue. Still have them, still work with them. [00:06:03] And then a week later, somebody else called. And it was the same thing, and that was our second client. Still working with them as well. And the, you know, I'm not into rubbing crystals or sleeping under pyramids, but you know, you ask the universe and the universe will provide. [00:06:19] Jason: One of the things that you mentioned, Brian, that I think's really interest is, it sounds like part of your journey, like there's this importance you've probably realized in partnerships. [00:06:28] because you've mentioned multiple times, you know, you partner with the listing agent and then eventually you partner with Tim. And so how is finding the right partners been instrumental in your growth and your progress? [00:06:41] Brian: Well, I will say this is that later on more recently, this year, they have broken out the property management business that was running as part of our real estate sales business. I've broken that out separately, and I'm now solo doing that. Right. Have had partners in the past, and I have found working with partners to be that there's advantages and disadvantages. Totally. It's hard to find, it's really difficult for partnerships to be successful because most people, the ego is getting in the way or, you know, there becomes a battle about, you know, who's doing what, who deserves this, who deserves that. [00:07:24] Yeah. Personality wise, I'm kind of roll with it person, you know? I'm more of a solution oriented person. Just what we need to get from point A to point B, what's the best way to do that? What for the good of the company, not necessarily for what's best for me personally. Yeah. So I've gone through a couple of partnerships with different people, I have been able to make that work from my point of view, because. [00:07:49] Because of my personality type, I think, but it is not for the the weak hearted, you know, I mean, it is some days are a lot harder than others.  [00:07:58] Jason: I've seen some of the most successful I've seen have really healthy partnerships in some of the worst situations I've seen where they couldn't grow because one was like an anchor, not willing to move and they had just as much decision making power and until they were able to get that partner out of the business, they weren't able to progress. So it can be a boost in the positive, but it's really difficult to find a really good match. [00:08:24] Brian: Yeah, and that's the thing is like, I'm more of a behind the scenes person, just in general, I'm more like I can implement. I generally will have the ideas as well, but I'm the one that I'm kind of a control freak, quite frankly, and so one of my character flaws is right now that I'm trying to work on is feeling like I need to touch everything, you know, because that's that is a throttle in the business. [00:08:48] Jason: Well, I think we all start there. Every entrepreneur starts there, so everybody listening should be able to empathize with that because you know we want to do a good job because we care. We want to look good. We care about how we look right like whatever it is. The challenge with being a control freak is trust and until we learn how to get and find people that we feel safe with, I don't think we're supposed to trust, you know. We're not supposed to just trust blindly. We need to find people that deserve to be trusted and know how to build that team. And that's probably kind of the next level, right? Is for you maybe is to build that team of people that you trust because when you get really great people, it's not hard to trust them. [00:09:30] Yeah. But they need to match you. Like they need to be a good coach. And then it's a lot easier to trust them. And so in this journey, you split out your business and then you have a property management business. It's all yours. You're still doing real estate stuff also? You still connected to that? [00:09:47] Brian: I am, but my mentality has shifted. It's probably been more than two years since the first time I talked to someone from your company and yet we didn't start with your company until, when was it, March this year? It was a two year lag of wrapping my mind around the philosophy of, Just making the shift, right? [00:10:06] Because property management always for us was a, just a holding place for future sales listings. And now, it's the business. Property management's the business and sales is ancillary benefit.  [00:10:21] Jason: So what prompted that shift? How did your brain work that out eventually?  [00:10:25] Brian: I think it's a combination of a variety of things. Having now 20 plus years in the business, I've been through an up and a down and an up and a flat, right? Who knows what the next one looks like. Is it eighties, nineties, or is it two thousands downturn? Yeah. And where I am in life, right. And I mean, do I want to work forever? Just slinging, right? Do I want to be out there, you know, showing, opening doors at, you know, 68 years old? [00:10:57] Jason: And chasing deals? Yeah.  [00:10:59] Brian: So mailbox money, right. Building a business that's sellable. Right now, or up until this point, I should say, it has been 100 percent every dollar that comes into our house is product of my labor, and that is a train coming down the track. [00:11:19] Right. So I needed to make some changes now that would have dramatic impacts on my future. If I wanted to change what I was doing, you know. [00:11:27] Jason: Yeah. Got it. Yeah. That switch from kind of recognizing you're kind of trading time for dollars to realizing, "Hey maybe I want to build something." [00:11:36] I mean, it's really tempting because you close one real estate deal, that can be a lot of money, but eventually I think there's a lot of real estate agents that wake up to this, that they're like, "Hey, if real estate kind of takes a nosedive or do I want to do this forever?" Maybe not. [00:11:52] Property management might be a really great business model.  [00:11:55] Brian: Like I said, we did our sales under under Better Homes and Gardens now, and I don't know, did I say that? Maybe in my own head. So the property management is under my own brokerage. The sales that we do, we work under Better Homes and Gardens. [00:12:10] I, you know, Tim and I as sales agents here until this year, we've been the number one agent, like since we came here. So seven, eight years, however long it's been. I do see the changes. I have seen the changes come in and perhaps it's a little bit of you just mental scar tissue from the crash of, you know, '8, '9, '10, ' 11. Yeah. It's just, you know, because the cracks have been forming in the foundation of this real estate sales market for a few years. Right. And it's been propped up artificially by government policies. Yeah. For three, four years. Right. And so, I've been waiting for a shoe to drop quite frankly. [00:12:51] And so two years ago a guy used to work for you, Jon. I called Jon back in like February this year. "Hey, Jon, you still working over at DoorGrow?" Jon was actually the one who said to me two years ago, two and a half years ago now, " if you do this, our expectation is that you're going to change your philosophy. You're going to be a property manager who doesn't do sales." What? That took me a while to embrace.  [00:13:17] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Jon's a good friend of mine. We just went out to lunch recently. He's really sharp, dude. So, you know, I'm really curious, Brian, this journey from being a reporter for a while to real estate, to now shifting your identity into being a property manager, and that's the focus. How do you feel the reporter in you helps the property manager?  [00:13:44] Brian: Yeah, perfect proving ground. It's who I am is based on education, information gathering, being an advocate for consumers, right? [00:13:56] That's what I was trained to be as a reporter and editor, as a journalist, and that just morphs perfectly into what I do now, which is to look after my client's financial well being, right? And it doesn't hurt that I tend to over explain things, right? Because that's what I do, right? Is my job is to go out and gather information and then provide it in an objective way so that people can then make the best decisions for them and their family, right? So that's being a reporter, right? It is to shine a light on the facts so that people can decide. I mean, sometimes you got to take them by the hand and lead them down the path, right, educating them along the way. Yeah, for sure.  [00:14:37] Sarah: So what was the thing that made you go, "all right, I'm finally going to do this. Like I'm going to jump on board, get involved with DoorGrow and start really focusing on this property management thing? [00:14:49] Brian: Yeah. So earlier this year I had been kicking around, you know, you're looking at numbers, right? Kicking around the idea of "how much more time do I want to do this?" [00:14:59] And there were some personal things that got into it too, because you start looking at relationships and your family and looking at the things that are most important in your life. And priority wise, where have they been on your list? And so I decided I wanted to make some changes and then I lost some friends and family members just in the past year. [00:15:25] And so, one of the things that I picked up in the newspaper was Spending too much time in the office and and spending the less time seeing family and, you know, coming out of COVID and just, it's just like a combination of a lot of things all crashing together at one time.  [00:15:41] Sarah: We are under attack in our house right now. [00:15:43] We have groceries being delivered.  [00:15:45] Jason: Dogs are going nuts. [00:15:49] Our professional podcast, everybody, so.  [00:15:53] Brian: Anyway, so that was you know, some personal stuff came up and I decided to reevaluate. Now, in the past 10 plus years, I've been doing property management. [00:16:04] providing a supply of say two to six listings a year and making that shift. I don't know, it was a conversation with my wife and you know, running numbers and trying to figure out like, is it even possible? And there's a transition period because what you focus on is what you get. Right. So if I start focusing a hundred percent on property management, and how is that going to affect my income for people? You know, because what I do today in sales, that's not income for 90 days. Right. So at some point you have to be able to make that transition. And so, you know, it was a bit of a leap of faith. [00:16:42] And so, like I said, when I called Jon to ask if he was still working with you guys, then he said, no. He called me back though, but he said no, but he then referred me over to somebody. So, but making that switch, it wasn't an overnight decision by any means. [00:16:58] I agonized over it. It was sleepless nights, some nights. But I knew that I had to do something.  [00:17:04] Jason: So, well, you took a big risk then this leap of faith and then jumped on board with DoorGrow, decided to focus on property management. You feel like you made a good choice? [00:17:14] Brian: Yes. You don't know what you don't know. And so, I've been on a journey of learning what other people are doing, best practices, ancillary services to go along, you know, support type pieces of everything from other streams of income that are related that are, you know, not just management fees and placement fees, right? [00:17:37] I mean, there's a variety, but it's crazy what I've implemented just in the past six months, it's just been an insane pace and now I'm like eight days away from moving to a new, property management portal, and that will be the cherry on top, really. Most of the footwork of putting the foundation together will be mostly done, and then it's digging into processes. [00:18:02] Jason: Awesome. Yeah. So. Yeah. So you've made a lot of changes to your business and you said you've been learning it at an insane pace. So hopefully we're not making you bored with all this stuff. We've got plenty of stuff, right? It can be a bit overwhelming. We give the feedback on. So Brian, well, what's what's next for you in the future? [00:18:25] Brian: Right now I'm just trying to continue to learn from you and I'm just focusing on growing the number of doors that we manage and creating a business that will have sustainable and continuous growth and then part of the process has been, yes, putting the tools in place and doing the things that you know, I've been advised to do to create this and grow this business. [00:18:53] But when you start, you don't necessarily believe it, right? It truly is that leap of faith. And over time, my belief is starting to catch up with my activity. And so, you know, to go like when last week we literally hit the doubling point of when we started with you and after 10 years of just being flat from 30 to 35 units. And then now literally doubled it last week. And that's been from following your instruction, your philosophies and you know, focusing on building this business.  [00:19:30] Jason: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that the next 30 doors didn't take 10 years. That's awesome. Doubling in four months and I think things will speed up from here. So, well, I think that's a good place to end on. I think that's really awesome. So we appreciate you as a client. It's been great seeing your progress. You know, I think there's a lot of property managers out there that are like you, they come from the real estate industry. They want to get out of the hunt and the chase. Maybe they've been doing property management for even a decade, but you know, they haven't really made progress in their growth significantly in the last year or two or three or 10, you know, and and now maybe it's time, maybe it's time. [00:20:10] So maybe some parting words, Brian, what would you say to those that like they've been watching DoorGrow for a while? What would you say to them?  [00:20:17] Brian: Don't wait. You know, where would I be if I'd started two years ago? . I think about that occasionally, and then I have to stop myself because that just takes me off track. [00:20:26] And you get into that regret, you know, loop in your head. Like, no, I don't have time for that. I am where I'm now. And everybody is where they are now, right? And so you can either take action today or not, your results will reflect that. Yeah.  [00:20:42] Sarah: And you're exactly where you're supposed to be in that moment. I can do that to myself too. I can go back and go, "Oh, what if I did this sooner? It could be so much farther." Right. But I think that things just tend to work out the way that they're supposed to work out and things kind of line up. And I think you were prepped, right? [00:20:59] You knew about DoorGrow. You were kind of checking it out. You weren't sure if you were going to make that jump and you did when you were ready and it paid off.  [00:21:06] Jason: Yeah. So, there's a cool book called the gap and the gain. And the idea is that it's so easy for us as entrepreneurs to focus on the gap between where we should be by now. Where our dream or what we could have done. And that's not really an effective comparison psychologically. Like that, like doesn't make us feel super great about ourselves. But what is effective though, is to look at the gain. How far have we come? And I mean, four months. You've come a long way. [00:21:34] And so the next year, I think it's going to be really awesome for you. So I'm excited to see what you do, Brian. So thank you. All right. Thanks for coming on the DoorGrow show.  [00:21:44] Brian: Glad to be here. Thanks.  [00:21:46] Jason: Thanks again. All right. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow your business. [00:21:51] Maybe you've been sitting stagnant for a while. You haven't had significant progress in the last year, maybe the year before that you might even be a really large company and you're not making progress. I've talked to several with thousands of doors in just the last week. We just got one of them on as a client and they've been struggling to figure out how to grow and they cannot even spend any more money on ads to get any more clients.  [00:22:13] It's not working. If you want to figure out how to start moving your business forward significantly, we can easily help you add 100, 200, maybe even 300 doors in a year. And it's without wasting money or spending money on advertising. And that might sound ridiculous, but Brian's going to do it. [00:22:29] Like we're seeing people do it all the time. So reach out, you can check us out at doorgrow. com. We would love to help you grow your business. Talk to you soon. Bye everyone. [00:22:39] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:23:06] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join host Brian Mattocks in an exhilarating deep dive with Jordi Negre on Dantex Group's ambitious transition from Europe to the US. Jordi unpacks the strategic gamble of relocating headquarters, embracing a SaaS model, and gearing up for an aggressive expansion. Expect insider insights on scaling a business amidst cultural shifts, fundraising, and the art of finding the right talent.Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.Dantex Group's brave HQ relocation.Navigating a fragmented European market.Switching to a lucrative SaaS model.Strategy for acquiring US clients.Attracting talent for growth in the US.Resources:Dantex GroupPodcast ChefConnect with Jordi Negre:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailQuotables:00:49 - Europe seems like a very consolidated marketplace but in fact it's very fragmented different languages different regions different even currencies because with the Brexit you have the pound and then you have the Euro so the path to growth, it's pretty difficult. It seems like a homogeneous market but it's not that homogeneous and with our limited resources and dedication we decided that the US market was much bigger and the culture of adoption of our products services the platform that we have it's much more understood and the venture capital ecosystem makes it also like the best place to grow to scale and eventually make an exit plan. So a part of that decision to move was the decision to raise as well right?16:52 - Second is adapting which is not exactly pivoting but it's like pivoting geographically to adapt that pitch or let's say cultural evangelization about what you do to another culture. And third, it's that although all the signs confirm that we have done the right decision in wearing the right track the conclusion is that this is going to be tougher but bigger at the end.16:52 - Well in the B2B segment in which we are we could confirm that if you have done business in Germany you could do business in the US. I mean the requirements of those corporations are more or less similar but then the second conclusion would be that the go-to market it's very different like we discussed and nobody teaches you how to do it because the world has very different let's say geographical areas and every geographical area behaves very differently so one it's confirming that the product makes sense.1:37 - Brian: So tell me a little bit more about that what are you thinking there? Jordi: Yeah I mean I'm a firm believer that we do have to be successful with organic growth but if you want to put your company in a different level at some point you're going to need external funding, although we're not in the best years of fundraising and I've been reviewing and reading some articles recently that do not create a cool expectation for 2024, this might change in the future and we will you know be in a different situation. And once we need let's say big money to make a like a potential growth and and and and and and and aggressive expansion.06:34 - Yeah, it was, we could say a risky decision to move our headquarters to the US and changing models because we had to disconnect from one geographic and region and connect one other. That's not something that happens from one day to the other so you have to be aware that you're gonna cross the desert for a few months. Luckily we had some cash from our own operations that allowed us to transit that desert and right now we're in the middle of let's say getting traction in the US through industry leaders. Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:LinkedInEmailSchedule a Free Podcast Consult

When you are creating a team in your property management business, the culture that you create will make or break your business and your ability to grow and scale. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with property management entrepreneur and DoorGrow client Brian Mullins to talk about hiring, culture, and processes. You'll Learn [05:33] Why culture is important in a business [12:07] Importance of humility and showing gratitude as a business owner [19:48] Having processes makes everything easier! [24:18] Setting goals in your business Tweetables “If I could just clone myself, then all my hopes and dreams would come true because I would make that clone of me do all the stuff I don't want to do. Guess what? They wouldn't want to do it either.” “People that can do everything do not make great team members. They make great business owners.” “Don't be the property manager, be the property management business owner. Hire the property manager.” “Whatever we focus on with our team and are grateful for, they get better at that.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They say pride cometh before the fall. So if you're not humble in business, usually you get your ass handed to you at some point, and then you are forced to be humbled. And so you either humble yourself or you get forced to be humbled.  [00:00:12] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners, and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, co-owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:19] And our guest today is Brian Mullins. Brian, welcome to the show.  [00:01:24] Brian: Thanks for having me.  [00:01:25] Jason: Cool. So Brian, give us a little bit of background on you for those listening, how you got into property management, why you decided to do that crazy thing, and yeah, share a little bit about your journey in entrepreneurism. [00:01:39] Brian: Okay. Well, it goes back a long ways. I I'd always had an interest in real estate. I grew up in high school during the ramp up to the great recession and was fascinated by it, and graduated high school, wasn't sure exactly where I wanted to go. I was leaning towards technology or entrepreneurship, finance business, and started computer science, said, "Oh, hell no, I'm not doing this," and then switched over to finance. And in that time, I was also working for a collection law firm as my college job. So I switched to finance, fell in love with that, and then I got an opportunity to take some electives in finance, and real estate was actually one of the departments under finance. [00:02:20] And so, like, well, I can get a minor and fulfill my electives in real estate, or in finance. And so I took my first real estate class, and that was the point which I decided that this is where I wanted to be, and this would have been in 07, 08, and I set myself as a goal to go through college, graduate college, work five years for somebody else, and then start essentially a investment brokerage, doing property management acquisitions, the whole nine yards. So I went all the way through school, graduated in 2010, which is a really crappy time to find a job and I said, "I'm not going to go do some of these jobs that are actually available," and I went and got my MBA instead, graduated in 2012, worked 5 years for a regional automotive group, and I was in charge of all their real properties, and so I was doing a lot of commercial real estate at that point, building buildings, and also managing the various assets that they owned. And then after one week, should I have my five year anniversary? I quit, made a little bit of a shift. In hindsight, probably wasn't the best idea. I went more towards retail brokerage, and ran with that, never had a ton of success, survived made a decent chunk of change, but I was never super satisfied with it, recruiting agents is not my jam.  [00:03:32] And so during COVID, I saw the handwriting on the wall, I knew that the market was going to collapse, you know, you can't live with interest rates as low as they were, and it's a pendulum that's going to swing the other way, and so we made the conscious shift at that point, and I took a few key members of my retail brokerage and said, we're going to go into property management, and this was in early 2021. So, at that point, I had, I owned like 17, 15, 17 doors, something like that myself. I managed a couple others, so we're at about 20 doors. And then we quickly expanded, we got up to our peak was about 150 doors that we got up to, and then that was about the time that we joined DoorGrow and we ended up firing our largest client. [00:04:14] It was an apartment complex, but it was just an absolute nightmare, and then we've been rolling ever since. And then also during this. I actually had an investor reach out to me and say, we want to grow a real estate portfolio, and so we shifted from when we originally signed on with DoorGrow to really looking for clients to more, we need the process and the culture so we can grow this business because we've got essentially, you know, a big portfolio of properties coming on and we need to be able to scale it. So that's the short story of how I got into it. I've always loved it. All my work history has led up to this. Working collections for 10 years through high school and college is a really good transition into property management because it's the same thing. [00:04:54] Yeah, it is. You're dealing with the people who don't pay their debts are a lot of mostly tenants, you know, to somebody. And so you have to deal with that type of clientele, and it's that balance. And I really appreciate my lawyer that I work for. He really taught me a lot of like, how do we balance being compassionate, but also being firm because that you can be a jerk, right? Or you can be a, you know, somebody just gets rolled over. It's like, you need to find that in between. So I learned a lot from that and working real estate from five years and then even doing, I learned a lot being on the retail brokerage side. [00:05:27] Jason: Awesome. Yeah. So it sounds like you have a lot of experience that you really can leverage to benefit your clients. So the topic we are discussing today's how process and culture can make or break your organization. So what what have you learned about process or culture related to this? What conclusions have you been arriving at? [00:05:47] Brian: So, yeah, so for me, I'm an only child. I was always raised, you know, very independent, and I can do it myself. The problem is I can't grow an organization like that. Yeah. The kind of my first real inclination of this was like when I read the book Good to Great, right? It's, you know, and then that's even on a big scale, but like, how can I be a leader to grow an organization because I can't do it all myself? I could, but I'm never going to be able to scale to where I want to. I'm always going to be capped out and I'm going to have a job and not a business. And so, you know, whenever this investor came on and we were really starting to grow, like we were at 150, we were feeling the growing pains and we noticed this like with the retail brokerage, like keeping people was harder. Like I could recruit, I'm a good salesperson. Whatever I want to do, I can get somebody in the door. But then keeping them long term because people are looking for something different than what I would be. That's one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that not everybody's like me. If I'm an employee, I don't care as much about culture. Even though I do in the background, but like, that's not my main thing. Like I'm very goal oriented enough. I'm going to get my job done, but that's not what the majority of people are looking for. And so we need to be able to set that culture. [00:06:59] And so that was the first piece that we were noticing, but we didn't really realize it. And so like when we came to DoorGrow and especially when I got this investor, it was processes too, because I, like you said, I have so much experience and all of this, and I've done this for so long. I'm a hell of a property manager. I can manage all day long. I don't like doing it necessarily, but I can't grow, I could probably manage a hundred 150 doors on my own. But then I'm tapped out. And so how do I take what I'm doing and make it a process so I can replicate it? And once I replicate it, you know, even here in this market, how it should be something I can replicate in other markets as well. [00:07:39] So that's where we've been going and we've been working really hard at getting those processes documented, getting as much automated as possible. So that way we don't have to worry about it. The system just runs on its own and, you know, and we're getting to that point now, and once we fully execute everything and we feel really confident in that, it's just going to be plug and play on grip. [00:08:01] Jason: Yeah, yeah. I think it's a big mistake that entrepreneurs make early in their journey. And it's super common to assume that people are like them, right? We all start there. A lot of times that's our goal with hiring in the beginning, I call it the clone myth. [00:08:15] It's this belief, maybe those of you listening right now are thinking this, "if I could just clone myself, then all my hopes and dreams would come true because I would make that clone of me do all the stuff I don't want to do." Guess what? They wouldn't want to do it either. [00:08:27] And so they go out hunting for a clone. They're like, "I need to find somebody like me because I can do everything. If I just had somebody amazing like me, they could do everything..." and then leave and go start their own business is the reality, right? And so, but everybody thinks this and you can wear every hat in the business. [00:08:44] Entrepreneurs generally can do that. We're very adaptable. But people that can do everything do not make great team members. They make great business owners and you don't love doing everything right? Like you just said, I don't like being a property manager, which for those listening could mean two different things, right? Your clients would probably not want to hear that, right? But when you say that, you like having a property management business. I like dealing with the owner. In which you're a property manager, but then for some, being the property manager means doing the actual property management work, which is the property manager you hire as a property management business owner. [00:09:18] Yep. Well, those are two different statements, right? And so we encourage everybody listening, like don't be the property manager, be the property management business owner. Hire the property manager. So you've gone through this journey. You started working with us and defining your culture, getting your culture materials defined, and in the beginning, you're like most entrepreneurs. They're like, "what's this culture stuff? This sounds like fluffy woo woo BS. Like I don't need this. I just, I want results. Get the job done. I pay you. Just do the effing work." So, yeah. So what conclusions have you come to then with your team and with culture? [00:09:52] How does this shift your team and, or how does this shift who you hire? Like, what have you realized?  [00:09:56] Brian: So, we've been working really hard on that hiring piece. And so whenever we're looking to hire, like we've got to make sure we hire the right person. And, you know, we've had like some team players that, you know, maybe aren't the best team players. [00:10:10] And then you try to hire someone that can put up with them. Well, that's not a good option because you end up hiring somebody just like that. And then you've got two people that are like that. And you're like, we can't do this. You know, that doesn't really work in the organization and it's going to completely destroy stuff. [00:10:23] So, you know, we have to look for people who are willing to be team players. And so there's a book that I read The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni, and he mentions in the book three virtues. And I think it's a really good summation of what we're looking for when we hire. And those three are humble, hungry, and smart. We'll start at the bottom. So smart is not intelligence. It's emotional intelligence, right? It's can you handle yourself with clients? Can you handle yourself with the coworkers? Do you know how to make a smart response to things? And hunger obviously drive. You know, we don't want people that are just here to get a paycheck and go home because that's not going to succeed. [00:11:00] We're not an assembly line and this business is a 24/7 business. So I don't need someone at 5 o'clock that they fall off the face of the earth and maybe they're the only ones with an answer that we need to get ahold of. And then humble is the hardest thing to hire for and humble is where I struggle the most because naturally I am not a humble person my wife likes to make fun of me about that. But it's true. I'm not. I've always known that I'm decent at what I do and I walk and talk like it. So those three things is what we're looking for. And so we're very intentional when we're hiring now at looking for these aspects because you're right. When I first started hiring, I wanted to hire people like me, but all that would do is create tension, and they would eventually leave and start their own business and that's not a way to grow the business. I need people that fit in their role, who know their role, but also there's only so many people that can be the entrepreneurs only some people that can be the leader, right, of the organization. That's just the way the world turns. And so, like, we're hiring people on culture. We're also hiring people for the right position that fits their personality.  [00:12:07] Jason: So let's talk about humility. Let's talk about this. because I think this is a challenge and there's benefits to being humble. There's significant benefits to being humble. [00:12:16] Humble means that you are teachable. It means that you are able to get new information. They say pride cometh before the fall. So if you're not humble in business, usually you get your ass handed to you at some point, and then you are forced to be humbled. And so you either humble yourself or you get forced to be humbled. [00:12:34] And so the advantage, and a lot of people think humility is debasing yourself or putting yourself down or saying that you're not great. And I don't think that's what real humility is. That's like false humility maybe. I don't think that's what humility is. I think my definition or how I define humility is that you have the ability to recognize others hand in your own success, whether it's God, whether it's your team, whether it's your mentors, just being able to recognize that other people played a part in your success is the key to humility and it's also what opens the door to you being able to be more successful because if you think it's all you, you always are limiting your ability to have more success.  [00:13:20] Brian: Yeah. It's the people that are around you and that's why whenever I hire somebody, like if they think they're all that and that no one can touch them, they will never work because they lose their hunger too, right? Because they think it's all them and they lose their smart communication. They think they're all that and that they're always right with how they communicate. And that's not true. Everybody makes mistakes. I make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. And you have to be able to admit that humbly. And, you know, one of the things that we've always done, even from day one is I want to make sure the client's taken care of, and that is being willing to admit when we've effed up and take the hit, there have been real estate deals in retail time, there's been, you know, there was a tenant that we placed recently that just went completely downhill real fast and within like a month and we took the hit on that, but that's not my client's fault, right? Should we have done that? I don't know. It's a really good client but you know, we need to make it right to the client and we need to say, "hey, we shouldn't have placed this tenant in here," and I told the client that, and I told him "we'll make sure you're taken care of so and that's what we do.  [00:14:32] Jason: Being transparent. I think you know, I put a lot of research into this a long time ago because, you know, I grew up in this religious culture in which you were always taught to be humble. But I was like, how do you humble yourself? Like, how do you become humble? And eventually, I had this epiphany if humility is recognizing other's hand in your success, the secret key to unlock humility and all the juicy benefits that everybody talks about that humility gives you true humility is gratitude. And so just learning to be grateful. And the way I think we can facilitate that with our team is to recognize their hand and to be grateful. So one of the things we do in almost all of our team meetings, especially our daily huddle, we do 'caught being awesome' or gratitude and like, 'what are you grateful for?' [00:15:16] And in our daily planning that we give the clients to do, we're like, what can you appreciate? And there's a double entendre there or meaning right of increasing in value, but also recognizing gratitude. And whatever we focus on with our team and are grateful for, they get better at that. [00:15:33] Brian: And for me, like it was, it's not my natural instinct to say, "Hey, you did a good job." I have forced myself to be like, "Hey, you've done a good job," and then I make sure my management team below me does the same thing with their people. We're not big enough that I don't see it, right? Like they're pulling around the office and I hear it and I will call the manager out and say, "Hey, you know, you should talk to your people and make sure they know that, you know, that they did a good job." [00:16:01] Sarah: That's one of the things we do in our team review meetings. Well, I run them. But like, I talk about like, "hey, you know, what's going well. And then are there any challenges?" And then I always just leave space at the end. Like, "do you have just any ideas?" Because maybe every day you do this thing and you're like, "Oh, it would be so much better if we could do it like this," or "it would be easier if we could do it like this." [00:16:23] Well, tell me that. And then I always want to make sure that I'm bringing out. Like, the opportunity just to be thankful for what they do. And especially because I don't have to do it. So if I didn't have you on my team, it would be me, it'd be me and Jason. So like I'm appreciative, you know, for the team members that we have and for the care that they really show our clients. [00:16:45] And that to me is big. But our team members consistently, like they just go above and beyond like all of them and they'll be like, "oh no, I already handled this" or, "oh, well, hey, I found this problem, and then I figured this, and then I just took care of it" and we're like, " okay, we weren't even involved in that. Thank you for doing that." And I think that's a really good, like the daily huddles are great. And then that one on one too is also really really important for them to just to hear that because it's always nice to hear "thank you," and especially in an industry like property management, where your tenants are not calling you going, "Hey, Brian, I just wanted to tell you how amazing you are. Thank you so much for being so great. I really appreciate everything you do. I've never had a property manager that really cares like this." They're like, " why wasn't this done? And I'm angry about this and rah!" Right? Like this is what we deal with. And this is what our front end staff deals with. So having something to counterbalance the like ball of hatred that's presented to us every day is huge in this industry. [00:17:46] Jason: Yeah. I think what's really cool when Sarah's running our meetings, what we'll see because we've led it by example, and Sarah's much better at this. She points out every team member that like, "thank you for doing this" and this sort of thing. The team now do it for each other. So when we have our little stage in our morning huddle that we do, it's, you know, caught being awesome or, you know, anyone do anything praiseworthy? Then, you know, team members now are calling out other team members. [00:18:17] "Hey, thank you for Adam getting answers to me so quickly. He's always so responsive," things like this. And so the good in that in being grateful, you're magnifying all the good. And so all my team members want to do more. They're getting rewarded. And what I find most team members want more than money. Most team members want recognition more than money once their basic needs are met. And that's weird for us. That's weird for us because we like money, right? We like money probably more than recognition. We're like, "well, let's get paid. You know, cool. I have some accolades. Get me paid, right?" Salespeople may be like that. The rest of your team probably really would just like to be recognized, but everybody likes being recognized. [00:18:58] So I'll recognize her. She runs our meetings and does an amazing job and I would not be nearly as good at this. And she facilitates this and gets everybody talking. Sometimes I don't even talk like the whole huddle was like, "Hey, everyone," you know, and I'm not as connected to a lot of the team sometimes. [00:19:16] So I can't even think of things sometimes to call people out for being awesome because I'm probably mostly interacting only with my assistant or sometimes with Sarah. And so, you know, that's it. And so my team members calling each other out creates this sort of culture of gratitude and appreciation, which increases the positivity and the positive results and that work environment, it becomes this almost like a feedback loop, a positive feedback loop. It grows my team members' skill and ability.  [00:19:48] Brian: And I think with this, like, because yeah you have to have your team and you will retain your team more, but then that also goes ties into the process side of things, because if you do lose a team member, if you have your processes lined out. [00:20:00] It's not as stressful if somebody were to leave because it's plug and play, right? Like, "okay, this is your job." And we've been working on recording videos of how you do certain things. And they're short. We try not to make them, you know, an hour long videos. And that way it's like, you know, you can go find that little piece that you need instead of having to like watch hour long video, but you find that and then now it's plug and play. And so that way you can easily hire somebody that maybe they're not, they don't have the perfect skill set, but they have the humility, they have the hunger, they have the smarts, they have the right culture for your organization. [00:20:35] And then the process is there. Where if they have that culture piece, they can be trained pretty easily in the process if it's documented properly.  [00:20:44] Jason: Very cool. So what's next for you in systems, process, developing your culture? What do you see on the horizon for your team?  [00:20:52] Brian: So, right now, what we're working on is finalizing everything that we have been working on. I've got an intern who's been incredibly helpful and getting everything set up. And so here in the next month or so, I'm going to have him sit down and go over everything that he's built in the process. And we're going to tweak it. But we've got everything written down on paper, and we've gotten most of it into the computer systems. [00:21:14] And then we're going to have a team meeting and make sure everything is running like it should. And then from there, we're going to make sure all those videos are up and going. And then we're going to work on expanding the team. So the thing is like with my investor who wants to really push this, like he wants to get in multiple markets. [00:21:31] And so what we're going to be doing is expanding with him. And so what we're doing is we're going to be looking for acquisitions. So we're hopefully we'll start with an acquisition and somewhere in our market. Because that way it's a little easier. I don't care how huge it is, even if it's 30 to 50 doors. [00:21:48] That would be stellar because it gives us an opportunity to learn the acquisitions piece. And then the next thing is we're going to go, because we're in Oklahoma City, next thing we're going to go up to Turnpike and start looking for acquisitions in Tulsa. And then we'll essentially set up a separate base in Tulsa. [00:22:03] But once we have all of our systems here and our cultures here. You know, it's going to be pretty easy to set. It's a 90 minute drive up there. So it's not the end of the world to have to run up there. And then from there, we're going to be going into other markets out of state. And that becomes more of an issue because we have different brokerage laws and I don't sit for my broker's exam or someone who would in another state. [00:22:23] So that's where we're continuing to grow is to go regional with this. And, you know, and the side that doesn't, isn't directly related to property management is like. We're tasked with bringing on doors. And so these things, the same pieces, the culture and the process follow with any business, it's not just property management. [00:22:42] And so like me and Mallory, my operator, we are having a meeting this morning. It's like, "okay, we've got this ball rolling. We need to start looking at the next thing, which is how do we increase our acquisitions of properties?" Not of actual real estate acquisitions. And so we're taking these exact same pieces and say, "okay, we need to line out the process," and then we can hire people to do it because the two of us can do it. [00:23:06] We don't have the time to do it. We need to get the processes lined out so we can put the right person in the seat and make it happen.  [00:23:12] Jason: Yeah. So we've touched on the three systems that are really needed to make the business infinitely scalable, as I say. So you need really good people. You need a good people system, need a good process system, and then the next big piece is a really good planning system. Sounds like you have a plan and getting that plan built out in DoorGrow OS so that it's no longer just your vision and you have the entire team helping you move this forward will take a lot of weight off your shoulders and allow your operator to make sure that this all happens. [00:23:44] And then you have a predictable future, which is really amazing. It's like, you can see the future and you can see the future growth of the business and your team helped make it all a reality.  [00:23:54] Brian: So one of the things that I really took away from the regional automotive group that I worked for the founder of it he passed a few years ago, but I got to know him. He was essentially retired, but I got to know him. And one thing he always did, and this is obviously before computers, because this was in the 70s, or what we have today, he wrote, I think it was three to five goals, and he wrote it on a piece of paper, and those were his goals for the next year. [00:24:18] And he would accomplish them and it's easier to accomplish what you have set. I had a teacher in junior high and she told me, and it's always stuck with me. You will get further if you set your goals high and don't reach them versus setting your goals low and easily reach them. And so that's the philosophy I've taken with my whole life. [00:24:40] Like, I'm going to set these goals, and whether I get there or not, you know, I'm sure going to try, but I know I've made it further than if I set my goals really low.  [00:24:48] Jason: Yeah, it's like the old quote, it's better to aim for the stars and miss than a pile of manure and hit, right? I love this idea for entrepreneurs. [00:24:58] The challenge though, a lot of times with team members, one of the things we coach on is that can sometimes demoralize the team because they have to be winning. And so I say entrepreneurs set your big hairy ass goal, keep it a private from your team. And then with your team set a goal that there's zero chance they can not hit by the end of the year, zero chance that they don't hit by the end of the quarter. [00:25:19] And that they're very likely hit by the end of the month. And it's because you want to teach them to be winning constantly. And this gives them you the ability to recognize them. And they actually increase their results because they're winning. And if they learn to lose, teams get very comfortable with losing very quickly, right? [00:25:38] They don't hit a sales goal that month. "Well, we'll get them next time," you know, and then they just get worse and worse. And so really big, I'm making sure like hit those goals, but back the goals down low enough that you'll hit it for sure by the end of the year and then see as a team, can you hit it sooner? [00:25:55] Then. Winning bigger.  [00:25:56] Brian: Yeah, I think that comes to knowing your people too, because there's some people that are going to be more ambitious, right? And so you can maybe knock circles up a little bit more than you would somebody that needs that fulfillment that, "hey, I've accomplished my goal." [00:26:08] And so that all comes with knowing your people and pushing that down the line as, you know, for me as entrepreneur and owner, pushing that down the line to the rest of my team members and my management team, and they push it down.  [00:26:20] Jason: Cool. Well, Brian, we appreciate you being in the program. Do you want anyone to reach out to you from this or get in touch with you or..? [00:26:27] Brian: Yeah we're in Oklahoma City Metro. If you have anybody that is looking to expand their real estate portfolio, feel free to give us a holler. You can find us in 1907investments.com and, or you can find me online. I'm all over the place. And you know, we really take pride and take care of our tenants, treat our tenants as clients, because then you're going to have a more successful business. [00:26:47] Because if you want your real clients, your owners should succeed. You got to make sure the tenants stay in and are happy.  [00:26:53] Jason: Awesome. Well, Brian, you're a sharp guy. We appreciate you being in the program. Thanks for coming on the DoorGrow show.  [00:26:58] Brian: Appreciate y'all.  [00:26:59] Sarah: Thanks, Brian.  [00:27:00] Jason: Thanks. See you. All right. [00:27:01] So if you are a property management business owner, and you are at the place where you are stressed out, you're struggling, you're frustrated, maybe you're thinking like, "what's my business worth?" Keeps coming up in your head because you're like, "maybe I should exit this." You want to get out of it. Maybe in the next two to three years is your plan because you don't really see a light at the end of the tunnel, then reach out to us at DoorGrow. We can help you get out of that, out of a business that you don't enjoy and turn it into the business of your dreams, a business that you do enjoy. Help you get the right systems installed so that it becomes easy, comfortable, and maybe even fun, right? Let's have a little fun. [00:27:39] And if you would like that, reach out to us at doorgrow, you can check us out at doorgrow.com. Bye everyone. [00:27:44] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:28:11] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

MDJ Script/ Top Stories for Jan 4th          Publish Date:  Jan 3rd      Commercial: Henssler :15   From the Henssler Financial Studio, Welcome to the Marietta Daily Journal Podcast.  Today is Thursday, January 4th, and Happy heavenly Birthday to NFL coach Don Shula. ***1.04.24 – BIRTHDAY – DON SHULA I'm Dan Radcliffe and here are the stories Cobb is talking about, presented by Credit Union of Georgia.  Fatal Multi-Vehicle Collision on I-75 Near Cumberland Claims One Life in Early Morning Incident' A Legacy Remembered': Beloved Marietta Football Icon Passes Away at 81 Anticipated Expansion and Community Involvement Mark Mableton's Inaugural Year, Says Mayor Plus, Bruce Jenkins sits down with Leah McGrath from Ingles Markets to discuss budget-friendly snack options for kids. All of this and more is coming up on the Marietta Daily Journal Podcast, and if you are looking for community news, we encourage you to listen and subscribe!  BREAK: CU of GA  STORY 1: 1 Dead in Early Morning Multi-Vehicle Crash on I-75 in Cumberland In a multi-vehicle crash on Interstate 75 North near Cumberland Mall, a 23-year-old man, Steven Slaymaker of Marietta, died early Tuesday morning. The crash involved at least five vehicles, with Slaymaker's 2016 Volkswagen Tiguan colliding with a 2012 Honda Civic driven by Anthony Taylor. After the collision, Slaymaker exited his vehicle to check on Taylor and was struck by a 2022 Kia K5 driven by Tekila Glass. A 2017 Toyota Highlander driven by Joseph McWilliams then collided with the rear of the Volkswagen. Taylor sustained serious injuries, while Joseph and Tina McWilliams had minor injuries. The crash is under investigation. STORY 2: 'A Long Shadow': Marietta Football Legend Dies at 81 Howard Jesse Simpson III, a prominent figure in Marietta known for his athletic achievements, local business, and strong faith, passed away at the age of 81. Born in Lancaster, South Carolina, Simpson played football at Marietta High School before earning a scholarship to Auburn University. He had a brief NFL career with the Minnesota Vikings and Buffalo Bills. Simpson was also known for his contributions to the community through his successful construction business. Described as a "gentle giant," he leaves behind a legacy of kindness and respect. STORY 3: Mayor Expects Growth and Engagement in Mableton's First Full Year The city of Mableton, formed in June 2022, faces challenges and opportunities in its first six months. Despite a pending lawsuit alleging the city's formation was unconstitutional, leaders are working on building blocks, including tax filings and service agreements. The city plans to offer code enforcement, planning and zoning, sanitation, and parks and recreation services. Community engagement is the next phase, with the establishment of boards and commissions. Despite opposition, Mayor Michael Owens remains committed to the city's trajectory. The city also aims to be a leader in technological innovation for municipal governments. Growth management is a priority, considering Mableton's proximity to Atlanta. We have opportunities for sponsors to get great engagement on these shows. Call 770.799.6810 for more info.  We'll be right back  Break: ESOG STORY 4: Stoner Says He Will Not Run in Redrawn Smyrna District State Rep. Doug Stoner, a Democrat from Smyrna, will not seek re-election due to redistricting placing him and state Rep. Teri Anulewicz into the same district. The redrawn district maps followed a federal judge's ruling that the previous GOP-drawn congressional maps violated the Voting Rights Act. Stoner plans to serve out his term until December 2024. This eliminates the possibility of a primary battle between the two Democrats, but Anulewicz faces a challenge from first-time candidate Gabriel Sanchez. Stoner's decision allows him to continue his advocacy for Smyrna and Cobb County, focusing on issues like emergency treatment for students with Type 1 diabetes. STORY 5: Korean Restaurant to Open on Church Street led by Local Chef Bōm, a casual Korean eatery, is set to open in the upcoming Bridger Properties development on Church Street in Marietta. The restaurant, slated to open this summer, will be led by Chef Brian So, who also manages the kitchen at Spring, a New American style restaurant on Marietta Square. Bōm aims to bring a unique culinary experience to Marietta Square, offering traditional Korean cuisine in a casual setting. The restaurant will be part of the 17,000 square feet of retail space in the Bridger development, which emphasizes supporting local businesses. The Church Street development has received approval with less controversy compared to Bridger's earlier apartment proposal. We'll be back in a moment  Break: DRAKE – INGLES 9 STORY 6: LEAH MCGRATH And now here is Bruce Jenkins' conversation with Leah McGrath from Ingles Markets to discuss budget-friendly snack options for kids. STORY 7: LEAH INTERVIEW Break: Henssler :60  Signoff-   Thanks again for hanging out with us on today's Marietta Daily Journal podcast. If you enjoy these shows, we encourage you to check out our other offerings, like the Cherokee Tribune Ledger Podcast, the Gwinnett Daily Post, the Community Podcast for Rockdale Newton and Morgan Counties, or the Paulding County News Podcast. Read more about all our stories and get other great content at MDJonline.com.   Did you know over 50% of Americans listen to podcasts weekly? Giving you important news about our community and telling great stories are what we do. Make sure you join us for our next episode and be sure to share this podcast on social media with your friends and family. Add us to your Alexa Flash Briefing or your Google Home Briefing and be sure to like, follow, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.   Produced by the BG Podcast Network   Show Sponsors: henssler.com ingles-markets.com cuofga.org drakerealty.com esogrepair.com   #NewsPodcast #CurrentEvents #TopHeadlines #BreakingNews #PodcastDiscussion #PodcastNews #InDepthAnalysis #NewsAnalysis #PodcastTrending #WorldNews #LocalNews #GlobalNews #PodcastInsights #NewsBrief #PodcastUpdate #NewsRoundup #WeeklyNews #DailyNews #PodcastInterviews #HotTopics #PodcastOpinions #InvestigativeJournalism #BehindTheHeadlines #PodcastMedia #NewsStories #PodcastReports #JournalismMatters #PodcastPerspectives #NewsCommentary #PodcastListeners #NewsPodcastCommunity #NewsSource #PodcastCuration #WorldAffairs #PodcastUpdates #AudioNews #PodcastJournalism #EmergingStories #NewsFlash #PodcastConversations See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Attorney Brian Labovick is a Florida Personal Injury Attorney with an outstanding referral program called the "Family of Warriors". Brian began getting referrals before we had cell phones by passing out business cards. As of 2023, he now receives thousands of leads and hundreds of cases every year from their referral program. In this podcast, Brian offers up some priceless tips for firms big and small. Learn more about the Family of Warriors here: https://www.labovick.com/family-of-warriors/. See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/. Transcription: Lindsey: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield. With very few exceptions, all of the lawyers we speak with want to grow their practices. They're looking to gain a competitive edge in the legal market in order to attract more clients. While competition is a big part of the puzzle, collaboration can also help you grow your firm. Brian LaBovick of LaBovick Law Group joins us today to share how building a referral network that they call their family of warriors has contributed to the successful growth of their firm. Thank you so much for joining us. Brian: Super happy to be here. Thank you. How the LaBovick Law Group was Started: Lindsey: So tell us a little bit about your firm and how you got started. Brian: So I got started, I came out of law school. I went directly to the Honors Graduate Program at the Department of Justice, and I thought for sure I went to college and law school with a thought I wanted to be a prosecutor. And I did that for a couple of years and I realized that I really just loved being in trial, but I didn't want to work for the government my whole life. I got a job working for a guy who was afraid to go to court. He was a solo practitioner and he didn't want to go to court, so he wanted to hire a young prosecutor to basically go to court for him. So I did that and I did that for a couple of years. It was awesome. It was a great job, but he made me start my own firm to do that. So I was getting a 1099 instead of being a wage employee. And that just kind of inspired me, that, "Well, if I could do it with one client, then I could do it with many clients," and I went out on my own after a little bit. So it was awesome. It was a really good experience. But yeah, that's how I got my start. Presently, my firm is about 77 full-time employees and then about 25, 26 overseas teammates, which virtual assistant type teammates that are paralegals or workers for the firm in one capacity or another. So we're about 102 or 103 people total, and that's the firm right now. We practice in four major areas, so four divisions, personal injury, workers' compensation, Social Security disability, and the last one is called PIP, which is Personal Injury Protection. It's a collection for doctors and hospitals. And so we do that as kind of the business side of the practice. How Attorney Brian Labovick Got Started with Referrals: Lindsey: And so you're based in Florida, and Florida can be a really great place to practice law and to bring on those types of clients, but it can also be incredibly competitive. You have some really fierce big competitors in your area, and so you have built out a referral model to help bring on additional clients as you're competing in that market. So can you tell me a little bit about how that referral model works? Brian: So yeah, that's a really great point. Number one, you're 100% right. I guess everywhere is very competitive in the PI market, but Florida seems to be really swimming with sharks. It's a really tough market. It's the land of John Morgan, he started here. And so we have a lot of people that have learned to compete with him, and thus I think it's super heavy duty competitive. We've succeeded, I think,

In this episode, Edmund Zaloga from Responsify discusses their content creation and marketing journey. Responsify helps businesses bridge the gap between customer pains and solutions through engaging and informative content. The interview explores the importance of setting expectations and maintaining relationships with clients, different types of clients, and how their agency and software provide value and gamify the marketing and sales process. Listeners also learn about empathizing with the audience, creating resonating content, and the role of AI in generating impactful titles.Introducing Edmund Zaloga, the Founder and CEO of Responsify, a trailblazing growth content marketing strategy and production service based in Brooklyn, New York. With over a decade of expertise, Edmund specializes in crafting organic content that attracts, converts, and closes new customers. He's also contributed his creative wisdom as a Part-Time Professor at Pratt Institute and lent his strategic prowess to global brands like HubSpot and BBMG. Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market: Content plays a crucial role in connecting businesses with their target audience. Setting clear expectations and being honest with clients helps maintain healthy and productive relationships. Clients who see the agency as a partner are easier and more enjoyable to work with. The agency is exploring options to expand their services, potentially targeting startups who need assistance with content creation. Understand your audience's pain points and use SEO to find relevant keywords. Leverage social media, particularly LinkedIn, to strengthen connections and interactions. Seek support from a marketing partner who can help relieve the burden and provide expertise. Resources: Responsify Podcast Chef Connect with Edmund Zaloga:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks: LinkedIn Email Quotable: 02:22 - “You know, ultimately we're human beings. We like people and companies have websites. They're all, we all have something to give to the world. The websites are, you know, is meant to represent that and to ultimately, you know, help connect people. And what I found was after interviewing a lot of great CEOs that I had just hounded and, and tried to really get a hold of, they just, they sort of told me the same thing, which is like, Hey, we have a website, you know, we've got this really innovative product or service, you know, we're having a hard time getting people to even find us.” 18:22 - “How do we work with somebody who's going to help us make it, you know, do this better, faster, and cheaper than we could do on our own? And that's the sort of golden is they say it's a utopia. I say, you know, it's somewhere in between. It might not be, you know, it for every case, you know, people could definitely try to do things cheaper than us, but, you know, there's always that compromise the quality, and then it's going to take longer. You're going to have to deal with the headaches of managing all those freelancers. And so we were just sort of trying to find the sweet spot so that people can, clients can get an amazing value.” 12:01 - “And so for us, it's like, for me, I'd rather be blunt and honest and occasionally lose a client who is over demanding and unrealistic and just, I mean, we lay it all out and block it in white, here's exactly what we're going to do. Here's how much of it we're going to do, here's how much time it's going to take. And so when they're asking for things that are outside of that, I'll oftentimes say, well, let's, let's go back to totally understand and respect what you know, and then let's go back to the agreement. Let's look at what we have. And so that's, that's helpful for the people who are, you know, fair and reasonable.” 08:09 - Brian: “So as an outsource sort of content creation marketing function, one of the things I'm sure you experience all the time is your clients asking for content that may or may not actually move their, you know, business forward. Yeah. It doesn't move the needle. Then what's the point? How do you, how a, how often does that happen and what's the consultative process you go through? And then B, a follow-up question, how do you help them get from, get through that transition?”Edmund: “So I think a lot of that comes down to when you don't, if it, you know, if you, if you don't have a goal, it's difficult to score, right? So the, the way we look at it, or maybe the way that I've forced everybody to, to look at it is, you know, if you don't have a plan, you plan to fail.” 19:35 - Brian: “And as you've kind of embraced the sort of SEO nature and all of the kind of things that come out, I mean, it's quite clear that that's a data-driven sort of activity. How do you balance that creative sort of interest and background that you started with, with today's heavily data-driven approach to solving some of these problems?”Edmund: “So I think the, I think the, the, the way to do that, and I think it's, you know, I think it's a matter of balancing art and science. I think people generally are either really good. You have, you know, they, there's another metaphor. It's like you're, you're head in the clouds or feet on the, on the ground. I think that we try to do both. Like that's the thing is like, we're trying to…”Brian: “Sounds like a long stretch.”Edmund: “I can kind of, you know, I've got some, some cloud cover, but it's, it's that, it's the balance.”

In this episode, Sara Mannix, the founder of successful marketing agency Mannix Marketing Inc., discusses the evolution of SEO and the changing landscape of digital marketing. She highlights the key factors that have remained constant, such as the power of focus and niche expertise. Sara also talks about the shift towards a holistic approach to marketing and shares strategies used to market hard-to-reach industries, including the challenges faced in the hospitality industry.Sara Mannix is the Founder and President of Mannix Marketing Inc., an award-winning digital marketing agency specializing in SEO, PPC, and web design. With over 27 years of experience in marketing and tourism, she leads Mannix Tourism, a destination marketing agency focused on helping communities thrive, and tourism businesses achieve their goals. Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market: SEO has evolved from “search engine positioning” to a holistic approach focused on success metrics. The success of SEO depends on understanding the lifetime value of customers and targeting the right audience. Niche industries can utilize thought leadership and targeted marketing to generate conversions. Cross-functional learning enables the application of successful strategies from one industry to another. Niche expertise in the hospitality industry provides a deep understanding of specific challenges and solutions. Having a niche helps in clearly defining goals and delivering a guaranteed return on investment. Agencies struggling with their pipeline can benefit greatly from partnering with niche digital marketing experts. Resources: Mannix Marketing Inc. Podcast Chef Connect with Sara Mannix:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks: LinkedIn Email Quotables: 02:39 -  “I said, well, at the bottom of every website that we do, I put website design and development by Mannix Marketing, and it links back to us. And I think that makes a difference. So the links have changed. It's not just about having a link on any website, it's about having, you know, relevant content on relevant sites. That was true even before Google. Because Google really made it much more about the quality of the link.” 04:45 - “So I think the businesses that lend themselves to paid search and SEO and that type of lead gen are typically businesses with shorter turnaround times. I need this item, or I need this expertise, and I'm gonna search for it. Right. Where can I find it? Right. And that has a shorter span. And a lot of experts think, well, it's only word of mouth for my business, or it's this or that. And I always tell people, if it's a big purchase, and they are the type of people who want it within the next three months, they're going to research it on the internet as well.” 20:10 -  “I think it's one of those paradoxical things, like what is the saying about attorneys, like someone who represents themselves in court as a fool for a client. I think in many ways you almost can't do your own marketing. The blind spots are just too big. Yeah. Which is probably an unpopular opinion.” 06:29 - Brian: “So how do you deal with some of those hard to market kind of items or how to hard to market services with the clients that you represent?”.. Sara: “Yeah, so we actually have a client very similar. They do massive heating, heating and cooling systems that go on top of billion buildings that are worth millions of dollars. Right. And those numbers are very low for somebody who doesn't know who they are and who are searching for it. But when you're selling something that's a million dollars, and you're number one in search, they actually do SEO, and they have such great ROI because if there's 50 people a year searching for it, and they find them, and they sell a million dollar cooling refrigerant building Right, right. Solution, they've paid for their SEO, and their paid search for the next seven years.” 12:41 - Brian: “So what I'm hearing is that anyone willing to pay or anyone with a pulse and a checkbook is not a sufficient information for you to target them for SEO. Is that right?”.. Sara: “That's true.”.. Brian: “I have the number of clients that I've worked with in the marketing space where I'm like, so who's a great client for you? And they're like, ah, anybody will pay.”.. Sara: “We like, we have specific industries that we do really well, but we have really narrowed down on, and we have been in business for 30, 26 years, so we have done many industries. So, but if I were only a five-year-old agency, I would not recommend that, it's a nightmare. And it's just too much. You can't do everything. Well, you can't, right. We don't say we do everything well, we say we do SEO well, right. And we can do SEO well for anybody, but do we want to do it for everybody? No, no.”.. Brian: “You can go horizontal, or you can go vertical, but you can't really go both. Right.”

In this episode, Willy Kuo from Coohom explains how their software solutions for interior design are marketed to B2B clients such as Lowe's and Ashley Furniture through creating credibility and good content to build trust with prospects. Meanwhile, a B2B marketing director offers insights on managing a strong sales pipeline by maintaining 150 leads per salesperson, practicing credibility, staying true to purpose, and using the right terminology to communicate effectively with potential clients.Willy Kuo is a globally passionate marketer with over 7 years of experience in B2B and B2C marketing. Specializing in technological marketing areas, branding, SEO, SEM, CRO, CRM, and more, Willy is a versatile creator of appealing content. With a background in Electronic Engineering and a multifaceted artistic side, Willy brings a unique blend of creativity and rationality to his marketing approach, aiming to create impactful content that elevates brand awareness to a global scale. Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market: Create good content and demonstrate the right marketing approach Referrals are vital for establishing word-of-mouth marketing B2B companies sometimes move at different speeds, but it typically takes about one to three months to close a deal in the US market. Managing a full pipeline requires keeping about 150 leads per salesperson at any good time. Credibility is the key to building relationships with potential clients. It's essential for marketers to stay true to their purpose and not get lost in the market. Learning the right terminology is crucial to appeal to potential clients and close deals. Resources: Coohom Willy Kuo Music Podcast Chef Connecting with Willy Kuo:LinkedInConnecting with Brian Mattocks: LinkedIn Email Quotables: 04:33 - You need to create good content and also the good credibility. So these big players, this business, would trust your brand. You know, it's not like you're just doing a lot of online advertising. So they would know just, oh, you're a good brand, and why should I trust you? Why should I spend over 10,000 U s d, you know, at your company for a year? So I think the most important thing to do B2B marketing is credibility. 05:14 - The first thing, you need to spend a little bit, a little bit of time to figure out what is the right content for your target audience. And if you can create good content and the right approach, I mean, normally they would like to talk to you and when they, when you got a chance to talk to them, that's the chance. That's the, I mean, that's your platform, that's your stage to show how your marketing ability can attract these players. 08:00 - Brian: So when you started this approach to try and get to these players in Ashley or Lowe's, your entire approach was find people just like you in that organization and talk to them and see if they can't move you laterally. Was that the idea?.. Willy: Yes, yes. But the thing is that I wouldn't just, you know, I wouldn't just like approach them either on LinkedIn or email. I wouldn't just talk to them and say “Hey, I'm Willy, I'm behalf of cool home and blah, blah blah. But we do, you know, because normally if I am the one getting this kind of message, I would just ignore, you know? So in terms of the first approach is very important. You need to, you know, it's like dating, you need to make a good impression at first. 11:26 - Brian: But that referral then kicks off the next relationship and the next relationship and the next relationship. And that's the way it's… Willy: Yes. Because you know, in marketing the ultimate goal is called word-of-mouth marketing. If you don't do anything and then people will do the marketing for you, you know? 

In this episode, Brian Mattocks and Sean Boyce discuss the impact of AI on podcasting and marketing and share the latest trends in SEO and content creation. They emphasize the importance of relationship-based marketing and explore strategies for identifying keywords and creating compelling content. Additionally, they discuss how keyword research can benefit podcasting by providing guidance for topics and guest relationships and improving search rankings. Sean Boyce has run his consultancy firm NxtStep Consulting for over 10 years but found he wasn't able to grow his network effectively and efficiently through in-person marketing or lead generation services. To solve this, Sean founded Podcast Chef, a full-service podcast management platform that helped him grow his network while making awesome content at the same time.Seeing the effectiveness of podcasting at reaching new people, Sean opened it up to others, helping people to start a podcast and delegating the management from post-production to booking guests. Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market: SEO is evolving, but creating organic content remains important, even if AI is used to present search results. Keyword research is a critical part of content creation and is an area where AI tools can be helpful. Keyword research can be used to produce better results with minimal changes, leading to exponential improvement. Focus on relevant keywords to extract a variety of topics that will be relevant for the show. The audio and video components are only one aspect of the podcast, other components like show notes and transcripts can also benefit from keyword-based approaches. Understand one's ideal customer profile before using keyword research tools to solve problems. Resources: NxtStep Consulting Podcast Chef Connecting with Sean Boyce:LinkedInConnecting with Brian Mattocks: LinkedIn Email Quotables: 01:08 - I've spent about two weeks now studying whatever the latest is at the moment in terms of what's happening with s e o search engine optimization. How is content being created and produced? What tools and resources are people using and even all the way to who's creating it, is it still organic, human-written for the most part? Is it largely being AI generated. 01:48 - New tools and resources are coming to market every day. And obviously, with what we do at Podcast Chef, we help people create organic content through podcasting. So you're interviewing people, you're asking questions. That's almost exclusively done by people, at least for now. But in some of these other formats, some of that stuff is starting to change. 14:34 -  I think it's really important as well to understand that if you're using your podcast well the, the audio and video components are only one aspect of the podcast, right? You have the show notes, you have the transcripts, these are all things that benefit from that keyword-based approach. You have then the articles that you can spin out a podcast and all of that. 17:20 - But it is absolutely vital that if you have no idea who your ideal client profile is, you better figure that out. Or all of these tools actually get more dangerous. The risk of you using them incorrectly to solve your problem is outrageous.  03:56 Brian: So how do you know people like us who are out there trying to get, you know, new clients and attract the right kind of folks, deal with the fact that search is changing now super quick, and what can we do to keep up?.. Sean: Great question and this is part of what I kind of set out to answer for us as we figure out how our process evolves. So long story short here, the abbreviation first I think is that basically don't panic is my first suggestion because.. Brian: The Hitchhiker's Guide will always save you, right?.. Sean: Yes. Like I'm having conversations with people, and they're like, websites aren't going to be a thing anymore. Writing content's not going to be a thing anymore. I don't really think any of that is true to a large extent. I think like anything else in technology, it's going to evolve, right?

Brian Feretic is the Founder of Blossm, a community marketplace to buy, sell, and trade plants. Victoria talks to Brian about how coming up with the concept happened, getting started in a very scrappy way and then filling in gaps, and opening up the app to have full marketplace functionality with buying, selling, and trading capabilities. Blossm (https://blossm.garden/) Follow Blossm on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/blossm-plant-marketplace/), Twitter (https://twitter.com/blossmllc), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/blossmplantswap/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/blossmplantswap) or TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@blossmplantswap). Follow Brian Feretic on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-feretic-3b2b337a/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido or Tori. And with me today is Brian Feretic, Founder of Blossm, a community marketplace to buy, sell, and trade plants. Brian, thank you for joining us. BRIAN: Hey, it's great to be here, Tori. VICTORIA: Great. I'm excited to hear more about Blossm. Why don't you just tell me a little bit more about the concept? BRIAN: The concept actually happened at the end of 2019, and I'd already been a plant enthusiast for a couple of years. I was actually just going on my way to surf in my town of Ocean Beach, San Diego, and I stopped by this garage sale. And when I came back to pay my neighbor, I brought this rubber plant that are propagated just as a neighborly gift. She flipped out. She was ecstatic. She's like, "Oh my God, I'm such a huge plant person. Thank you so much. Why don't you come into my backyard, and I'll give you a plant tour, and you can pick something out." And what was cool about this was it wasn't just like a simple exchange. It was like this hour-long interaction with someone that lived four blocks from me that happened to be this big plant nerd like me. And I got her whole story. She went through all these different species I didn't know about. And then, she helped me pick one out, which I still have to this day. It's this crassula succulent. When I was walking home with my new plant, I was like, oh wow, I got to go download the app for this. I would have never known this person that lives four houses away was a big plant person like me. And when I got home, I searched the App Store. I did a Google search. I just couldn't find what I was looking for, which was basically this plant-swapping plant-connecting platform where I could find fellow plant nerds in my neighborhood. And so that kind of set me off on this path. I did some more research and decided...I was like, you know what? I'm going to commit to this and make this happen for myself and for my community. VICTORIA: Well, what do you think makes someone a plant person [laughs] or like a...how did you describe yourself? A plant nerd? What sets that user apart? BRIAN: We'll say it's like on a spectrum where people can shift along the spectrum. But I'd say when people start treating their plants more than objects and more what they are. They are these living things. They're beautiful. They bring people joy. I find it therapeutic to take care of them. And then the beautiful thing about it is that these plants grow, and you can propagate them and share them with your friends. And I think that is a critical aspect of this whole plant person thing. VICTORIA: So the plants have become a little more like pets, and you can grow them in a way that creates a community around your friendship and your local area. BRIAN: Yeah, exactly. That was actually the early signal about this whole plant world is that I saw people creating plant-dedicated Instagram accounts as if it was your dog or cat. And that was something that I realized this is a different type of person. This is a very passionate person willing to, like, they're so proud of their plant babies, we call them. [laughter] VICTORIA: Right. And it's funny, you say, plant babies. When I think of people I know who I would consider plant people, they do talk to their plants like their babies. They're like, "Oh, it's so cute." [laughs] Or they're like, "Oh, he's not feeling so well." So I think that's great. And so you started to do some research into this community, into this group. What surprised you about your early findings? BRIAN: This was actually something that I didn't realize until I dug deeper was that I thought that it was only going to be a local thing. People wanted to experience what I did with Sondra, who's the neighbor I swapped with, this in-person connection, swapping, checking each other's gardens out and houseplants. But I learned very quickly that people ship plants to each other not only within your own state but across the country, and this is global. And I was just like, how do people ship plants? Turns out I do it all the time, almost weekly now, for years. That aspect was critical to realize, all right; this plant community doesn't necessarily have to be bound by physical in-person distance. It can connect online, and people share all over via shipping. VICTORIA: That's really cool. So you decided that there's a whole international community. So is that when you decided to really start building something like an application to help people? BRIAN: I remember just throwing this idea out to a lot of different friends, like, various backgrounds. And I was like, "Hey, what do you think of this idea about connecting people through this shared love?" And there is not one person who thought it was a terrible idea. And then I remember talking about it with a roommate at the time, and basically the same thing. I was like, "Hey, man, imagine people connecting through the shared passion. Who knows? Maybe even love can blossom." And he was like, "Dude, that's what you should call it." I was like, oh, that's a great name. It's about three and a half years now, and it's stuck ever since. VICTORIA: I love that, [laughter] about sharing love, and how the name came about, and just starting with your friends and people you knew and bouncing ideas off of them. But your background is not specifically in technology. So what about your background applied? And what did you have to learn new to take along this journey? BRIAN: So my whole career, I've been involved within the science sector. I actually moved to San Diego to pursue graduate school in neuroscience. I was very curious about kind of full neural networks and how those contribute to behavior. Actually, the Ph.D. program I wanted to get into at UCSD, there's a specific lab doing this really cool research with this new innovative imaging technique. And I applied twice, and I didn't get in. And so I went into biotech. But I would say probably two things helped me. I realize now going through this entrepreneur path, things that helped train me for this, was definitely a graduate school where you're pretty much broke the whole time. My lab didn't have too much funding, so you had to be really resourceful and creative to figure stuff out with minimal resources. And that's perfectly summed up the last couple of years, just like figuring stuff out. We have no money. How do we get awareness of our product when we can't spend, you know, we don't have ad spend or marketing budget? And it just kind of requires you to get creative and think outside the box and just really think, all right, what do I do here? And I came up with some hacky-type strategies that have been very effective. [laughs] VICTORIA: Well, very cool. It sounds like you found your team now to start working with you on this in a very scrappy way. So how did you fill in those gaps, maybe in your knowledge or your background on how to get this done by the people that you grew around you? BRIAN: For me, it wasn't too difficult. Well, one, my background. I was very naive with tech at the time and just programming in general. So my first task, I laid out three options. It was like, one, I can learn how to code. I dabbled in it for a week, and I was like, man, there's no way. [laughter] Two, I was like, I can outsource it, maybe somewhat cheaply, but I don't want to spend all my savings on it. But more, I knew that, you know, say you come out of MVP product, the product always is growing, adapting, evolving, or you encounter bugs. And I could just see how full of friction the process would be if I had to, like, all right, we have found a bug, send the contract out. They have to accept the contract. And I just knew progress would be too slow to operate in that fashion. And the third option was, like, find a technical co-founder and pursue this dream with, you know, a buddy. I was like, all right, who do I know that is in the computer stuff? And that was my thought. And my first guy I pitched it to was a friend I went to college with at Bucknell University. And he was like, I think, "This is a good idea." But he's like, "I'm going to retire probably in five years, and this is going to be a very lengthy thing." He's like, "I'm not interested." The second guy was extremely down for it, but it turns out he didn't know how to do any mobile app development. He uses a consultant. [laughs] And so the third and who I ended up working with was my surfing and climbing buddy Nick Mitchell. I just knew he did computer-type stuff. I pitched him the idea, and he was like, "What's up with this plant thing?" VICTORIA: [laughs] BRIAN: And I was like, "Oh, dude, this is a rapidly growing market. I know the ins and outs really well. I know this audience. I'm one of them." He wasn't sold until he heard an NPR piece talking about the houseplant boom. And then his father sent him an article from the New York Times saying how millennials are embracing houseplants and driving this new houseplant market. And so I think this was maybe end of December, now in 2019. And he hit me up, and of course, he's like, "Oh, dude, I want in. Let's do it." But I also wanted to make sure I knew he could actually do what was the task at hand. [laughter] So I had my other first friend vet his GitHub and stuff just to make sure. [laughs] VICTORIA: Oh, cool. [laughs] BRIAN: And he was like, "Yeah, you know, he looks good. Worth a shot." And it turns out Nick is excellent. He did all the front end, back end. He built this whole app basically from scratch. It's pretty amazing what he's capable of. So I got it right on the third try. [laughs] VICTORIA: That's funny. And I'm not surprised it came from networking in the climbing community, either. BRIAN: Right. There's a lot of smart...definitely a lot of smart people in the climbing community. And those are like my closest friends now. So it was kind of cool to find someone in that place. VICTORIA: And I've been climbing with friends before, and you're talking about work or whatever. And they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm also like an Azure architect," [laughs] like some specific skill that's related to what you need. And I think it's a similar cultural mindset of people you want to be working with too. Maybe that's just me. So, okay, so you found your partner. You had someone who had all the skills that you needed to make this happen. How long did it take until you really had something you were proud of? BRIAN: So, for me, I was laid off in August of 2019. I was working at Celgene, and they got acquired by Bristol Myers Squibb for like 72 billion, so massive merger. And I was kind of getting over the field. And so I was already basically unemployed. Nick, when we started actually working together in...we'll just call it January 2020. We started working on it casually, and then the pandemic happened. And then he got laid off. And he did about a three-month stint before he got another job at ServiceNow. But within those three months, he really cranked out like a full MVP. And then I had about probably at least 60 or 70 people I knew beta test the product for feedback and just initial thoughts. And so that was like a very critical time where we were all locked down. We have this cool idea. Let's just crank this out. So we had an MVP pretty quick. And then we actually launched it in June 2020. And I was already very stoked about the product. As long as it did its core thing, which is connecting people through this shared love, I knew it was like a proper test, a good enough test to see if this is a worthy endeavor. VICTORIA: That's really cool. So was there any surprising feedback that you got from that initial beta testing? BRIAN: Yeah. [laughs] So the initial concept was essentially like a Tinder for plants. [laughter] And I was just thinking about this idea, like, if people could just swipe on plants they've uploaded, and then if both people liked a particular plant and they swiped on each other, and they matched, it would open up a chat that would connect them. And it took the...one of the issues with bartering, in general, is people are like, "Oh, I'd love to swap that with you." And they're like, "Oh, what do you want to swap? What do you have?" And a lot of times, people don't align with what they have and what they want to swap. So I figured that would get this kind of friction out of there, but still, the core was connecting people. And then, very quickly, people found it fun. And this is still a feature right now on Blossm, which we've moved to the homepage. And it got a lot of engagement and interactions on it. But one of the simple changes was like, all right, maybe this is not the optimal way to present these plants people are uploading. Nick actually drew a lot of inspiration from OfferUp. And he was like, "Oh, this is very simple. This is a very clean way to present these things." So we started getting inspiration from OfferUp, and we changed that kind of swipe card functionality just to a scrollable grid. And that was a great insight on his part, and some of that has been core to the product from that point on. VICTORIA: That's so cool. So I can just go in the app and see a whole list of plants that people are willing to trade. BRIAN: Right. Actually, I would say another thing that happened very early on, too, was, once again, bartering is not the most efficient way to exchange things with each other. And within weeks, we're seeing people being like, "Oh, well, what do you want to swap?" And then people are like, "Oh, well, I don't want to swap for that. I already have that." And then other people are like, "Hey, I don't want to swap anything. I just want to buy it." And then other people are like, "Hey, I don't have anything. but how do I get stuff for you?" So right away, we opened it up to full marketplace kind of functionality with buying, selling, and trading. And we didn't have necessarily any payment system to facilitate that. We would just connect people. And then they would use Venmo, or Paypal, or Cash App, or things like that. VICTORIA: That makes sense. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: Now you kind of got your core features figured out, and you see people engaging with the app. What are you the most excited about on the horizon in your roadmap? BRIAN: We're about to actually finish the TechStars accelerator next week. Next week is our demo day. It's been such a great experience, and I feel blessed. But during this time, we're really figuring out, like, what's our big vision with Blossm? And we kind of went back to really harp on, like, we're more than just an e-commerce or marketplace. We're like this special passionate community where people can do this buying, and selling, and trading. One of the things that's been the trend for years now is instead of just photos; we're about to integrate some video functionality. This is a lead in to the bigger goal. And the idea is creating this...we're calling this full plant experience focused around live video where people can engage with each other on this totally different intimate level and can really showcase their plant collection and give each other a plant tour. How do you take care of this plant? Is another big topic that always comes up. It's just hard to really decipher what's wrong with something just from ecstatic images. And we imagine we could have live plant help. And then people can just show their plant up to the camera and showing a really holistic view of what's going on. And so this vision of live with video and creating a more complete plant experience centered around really using the community as this way to promote that and really build that even further. VICTORIA: That's very cool. I think I've talked to you a little bit before about this giant fiddle fig I have in my office. [laughs] It's going to the ceiling. And I got it from Home Depot, so it may not be the highest quality. And I've asked you about, like, is it alive? It keeps dropping leaves. So if I had a video and I could just show you around and show you where the leaves are browning a little bit and where it's not growing, I could see the value in having that interaction like that. BRIAN: Yeah, exactly. No one's doing that. And definitely, we want to keep innovating the space. We were first to market many years ago. And then, actually, we have some direct competitors that are blatantly just copying us, like copying email templates, features. And on one hand, it's flattering, but also we realize we have to be careful about positioning and making sure we stay ahead of the curve. And we think this is going to be the future and something that delivers really extreme value to this demographic. VICTORIA: Absolutely. And you mentioned you're a part of a tech accelerator. Could you tell me a little bit more about choosing which program you went to and how that's affected your overall approach to your app? BRIAN: Yeah. So last year, we added two more team members, so actually Nick's younger brother, Calvin, we poached from Amazon, which felt really good. [laughter] And then we had another friend, Ari Olmos, who we knew had experience in the startup world. He started, or I think he was, co-founder or CEO of a few other social mission startups. So he understood just the fundraising process was probably the most critical trait we're looking for, just someone that can help refine our systems, our processes, things like that. So now we're a team of four. And we were like, all right; we need money if we want to keep this alive. And I've been full-time since the idea conception. Ari joined full-time. Nick and Calvin both had jobs. But we just knew it's critical for a high-potential startup like ours to really grow; we needed some sort of fundraising. And it seemed logical. We gave our shot at proper fundraising with some angels and VCs last year. There were very encouraging signs, but didn't necessarily translate to any checks being written for us. And then we applied to a bunch of accelerators; Y Combinator and TechStars were our top two. We got a few rounds of interviews from TechStars, and the director, Ryan Kuder, who's great; he's actually based in San Diego. And I credit him to definitely being a key component here because I knew he really liked us. He saw the really good complementary team we built. We had a pretty mature product with traction and an active user base. And we accepted, and it did a lot of things for us. It was our first proper fundraising beyond a Kickstarter. So Nick and Calvin became full-time once we got in. And then we just had this, like, you have access to this massive network and get this really detailed one on one mentorship. We had almost six or seven mentors that we met with weekly. They're always available to help. And probably the coolest thing about it is they're just there to help you. There's no two-sided, like, I'll help you if you can help me. We are here to help you build, grow, accelerate your business. And they gave us really good insights on direction, really formalizing how to build in systems that will last much longer than the three month-program that essentially just mimicked a lot of stuff we've done on the program within our own team, like hosting little daily stand-ups every day. We've always done weekly meetings but using that time more efficiently, knowing how to test and measure more effectively. They've really just refined our company to be a proper business instead of four dudes trying to make this cool plant app. VICTORIA: That's really cool. And I wonder now, like, after you've had this experience, what advice would you give yourself if you could go back in time to when this all started? BRIAN: First thing that popped in my head was...and I kind of knew this going into it, like, this is a big project that needs time. Things that prevent startups usually is, one, you don't execute, or you just don't start it at all, or you give up too soon. And I guess I would tell myself, hey, things are going to be all right. Like, just keep sticking with it. And you're getting all the signals; this is something substantial and worthwhile. Just be patient, stick with it. Survive those valleys, and there are peaks on the way. And getting into TechStars was the ultimate validation. Yeah, I feel extremely blessed to be in it. And I think we're poised to do big things this year. VICTORIA: That's very cool. So you've mentioned those peaks and valleys and how much time you have to spend on this type of starting a company [laughs] and building an app. How do you balance that with also having a regular life and going surfing and climbing? BRIAN: It's tough to find your specific balance and especially during the accelerator where I didn't want to waste any opportunity. So there were a lot of times...I think January was a month straight no days off. And actually, I was injured so I couldn't surf, climb, or even play piano, so all my outlets. But just be okay with setting aside time to where you don't think about work at all. And it took me a few months to reach that point. And I found that as long as I have one activity or some exercise per day, either I surf or climb, I'm good. I don't mind working 12-plus hour days if I do one of those. And then just to allocate one day of the week where I am like, I do a couple of hours in the morning. But one mostly day of don't think about work, just enjoy life. And that has been enough for me to feel refreshed going into next week. And so I think I got a good rhythm, and I got a good formula for what works for me. It might be different for other people, but it's important to set aside time where you don't think about it. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, just to turn off your brain. Sometimes I find, like, you know, you mentioned surfing and climbing helps you do that because you really just can't be on your phone [laughs] when you're out there sometimes. BRIAN: Right. It's kind of funny because I'll almost say it's a catch-22. But sometimes, those things can be distracting, but they're also necessary for you to be focused if that makes sense. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, totally. Let me bring it back to plants. What is your favorite house plant that you have right now? BRIAN: Man, it's changed over the years, but I do have one. It's like the most popular high-in-demand one; it's the Monstera albo. Its common counterpart is the Monstera deliciosa, which is all green. This one has white variegation on the leaves. They're just inherently beautiful plants. And anyone that sees it can be like, "Wow, that is gorgeous." But I have one specific one, and why it's my favorite is that years ago, I was telling a climbing friend about the app, and I guess the app is out by now, but telling her about it. And she's like, "Oh, my grandmother was a huge plant person. My mom now takes care of them. I think she has one of those Monstera plants with the white on it. It was my grandma's though." And I was like, no way. I have to see this. And when I get there, she has this massive one, incredibly mature and old. I think she said it was almost 50 years old. I can't even believe this. VICTORIA: Wow. BRIAN: And then I asked her. I was like, "Hey," [laughs] I was like, "Can I have a little bit of that?" [laughs] And she was like, "Oh yeah, just go ahead. This is a plant. I'll grow it back." And I felt a little bad because I took a nice big cutting like multiple leave cutting. And she absolutely did not care and just was so happy. Turns out she had three of these like big mother plants. There's one cutting that had very low variegation, so it showed barely any white on it. Over time, I grew it out. Every subsequent leaf kept showing more and more white. And now it's just so beautiful. I check up on it every day, and every new leaf is just more beautiful than the next. And it's a special one. And it was gifted to me by my friend's mother. It started off like you can say a lowly variegated plant, and now it's just thriving and beautiful. So it has some history, and it came from a friend. So without a doubt, that's my favorite one. [laughs] VICTORIA: That's very cool. Yeah, I know those Monsteras that you're talking about. They're really interesting-looking plants. I kept one alive for a short time, and I'm very proud of myself for it. [laughs] So I'm interested in using Blossm to keep my plants alive possibly. But that's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. What else can I ask you? Is there anything that I should ask you that I haven't yet? BRIAN: Well, we could actually segue from what you just said. This is an interesting thing. So I think everybody who's been through this has gone through this exact process. So they have a couple of plants. They're like, what's wrong with my plant? How do I take care of this? And they go down the Google rabbit hole, or they happen to buy one of these plant ID plant care apps. Usually, they're like freemium. You get a couple of free tries, and then you have to buy a subscription or whatever. I also did this. And I was like, you know what? These apps suck. They just don't work, or they're too general. The best plant advice you can get is from other plant people because there are so many variables. Like, which growing zone are you in? What kind of light do you have? What's your ambient humidity, temperature? All these factors come into play on how to properly care for your plant and what could be wrong. And the best advice I've gotten was from other plant people. And so we have, like, beyond the marketplace grid, we have this fully functioning community forum essentially like a Facebook group in a way where people can post questions about what's wrong with my plant, or what plant is this? Or share memes and just nerd out. And it's been such a critical component I think of Blossm to cultivate this community. But it's also just very functional and effective because really the only way to get that advice and care information is by interacting with other people. That's something we want to build upon in the future too with that whole live and video capabilities. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Just a funny story, sometimes I'll call my mom who's a big plant person, and ask her questions, and she's like, "Well, you should go check that book I got you." [laughter] It's like, it's not helpful at all. [laughs] But yeah, no, I think that's right. I think people get excited about AI and image recognition. But sometimes it's still easier to get a real effective answer from a human. BRIAN: Yeah, I'd be curious with the whole AI getting its spotlight right now. And without a doubt, I could see applications there for it. Right now, I don't think that exists, but I'm very curious and excited to see what happens with all of it. It's going to be cool. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And I am excited that what Blossm does is really create this community around plants and learning about them and with the people around you. Do you have any final takeaways for our listeners? BRIAN: Hmm, final takeaways, you know, shameless self-promotion; if you love plants or you're getting into plants, Blossm is tailored for the plant person, which is what I think makes it special. And more general, I never intended to be the entrepreneur. I never intended for Blossm to be like, oh, this big tech company. I just had something I was super passionate about and wanted to see come alive for myself and for other people. Without a doubt, that passion paired with perseverance, I think, are critical attributes to follow any idea to the end or to some level of success. So don't be afraid to take that leap. By no means has it been easy. It's been the most difficult thing I've ever done but also the most rewarding. It's been really fun too. So if you got a cool idea, maybe try to build it out, find a good co-founder, a good team. Give it a go and create something for everyone. VICTORIA: Well, I really loved your story, Brian. I think you've found your niche. You built something. You took advantage of the time you had when you had it, and look where you are now. [laughs] I'm very excited to see what comes next. BRIAN: Cool. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been lovely, and yeah, stoked to listen to the next episodes too. VICTORIA: Excellent. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Brian Feretic.

In todays episode Amy and Brian discuss boundaries. Do you have boundaries for yourself? Are your boundaries healthy, plyable or strong. Do they help you reach your goals, are they too rigid? Are they all things good?[00:02:56] Brian: it's a great, great time to do that because of everything you just said, of course, but we're, we're just kicking off with the New Year theme too, and it's a great time right now to reevaluate your boundaries. And, and I don't mean just at a superficial level, I mean at a deep, deep level to really look at are your boundaries in line with your values and your beliefs?[00:30:10] Brian: So therefore, like if you have to shift, because we already said boundaries are pliable, boundaries can shift, boundaries can change. So is your boundary that you're moving, is it, is it a, again, helping, is it moving in a growing kind of way that's helping you grow and evolve because it's important to, to move in that direction[00:56:40] Amy: Well, and I think, yeah, you're saying the right things. Like no matter what, if you're feeling resistance or anger or frustration, that that draw of energy be willing to be honest and real with yourself. You have to look at what if, what are your habits and what are your reactions? Where did you learn these behavior from?One way to build boundaries is to understand that they are there to protect your life's values and your vision for your life,

This week we sit down with Lizard Skin founder, Brian Fruit to learn the original story of the brand founded in 1993. From cycling bar tape and accessories now to baseball, hockey and lacrosse, the brand has had an interesting journey making its products in the United States. Lizard Skins Episode Sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (code: TheGravelRide for free HRM strap) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Lizard Skins [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show. We welcome Brian fruit, the founder of lizard skins. Was there a skin spin part of the cycling industry since 1993. It's been quite an incredible journey for the company. Y'all know how much I love the business side stories behind the brands we know and love. So I was super excited to get into it with Brian and just learn more about the journey. With respect to their bar tape. What I find is interesting is that the material they have is definitely. Sort of on the gummy air side and you'll hear Brian, describe a bit about that product. But also it's worth noting. They offer four different sizes of kind of the diameter. Of the bar tape, which really changes the feel you can go from super thin. I E a lot of bar feel all the way out to kind of pair Ruby style, super cush. Which I think is an interesting option that you don't see across the board. A lot of times when you go into your local bike shop, You see only one diameter tape that's available. So it's an interesting thing to play around with and something I've enjoyed while testing out some of the lizard skin tape. Just before we jump in, I need to thank this week sponsor the hammerhead crew to. I am literally in Spain as you're listening to this, I'm recording this intro just before I'm boarding my flight and definitely thinking about all the adventures I'm going to have on the roads of Jarana. I thought about borrowing a computer from the group that I'm going with, but it was from another brand that I had a little bit of a bad experience with back way back when. I've come to love many things about my hammerhead computer. And I am convinced it's the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. It's got industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options. Free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsites. Mean that my riding in Gerona. I won't be without information. I'll have everything at my fingertips. As I'm saying all this, I'm literally reminding myself that I should go download the country maps. So I've got everything on hand. In my hammerhead crew to device. Hammerhead gives bi-weekly software updates. So the features are always up to date. And they're always listening. You can provide feedback to the team in hammerhead and potentially it's going to end up in a software update. You're not locked to a particular software package because they're always upgrading it. I really look for the climber feature. That's one of my favorite features these days. It was particularly poignant for me when I was riding in, uh, Bentonville Arkansas, a few weeks back at the big sugar gravel event, all those punchy climbs. I was really on the limit. I'm much more of a sit and grind on the coastal range here in California. So this punchy climbs or something I wasn't used to. So understanding exactly how far I was to the top and how many candles I could burn staying with the groups I was desperate to stay with really came in handy. So very much recommend the hammerhead crew to it's my exclusive computer. For gosh, probably over a year now. I'm not the only one singing its praises. It was named bicycling magazines, editors choice in GPS, cycling computers. For the past two years. Take a look on their websites for a limited time offer our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of a hammerhead crew to just visit hammerhead IO right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. Remember it's an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride for that free heart rate monitor strap. Would that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Brian. Hey Brian, welcome to the show. [00:04:27] Brian Fruit: Awesome. Super glad to be beyond today. [00:04:30] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm excited to dig into Lizard Skins a little bit, but I'd love to start out, as we always do, by a little bit about your history and how you ultimately got into cycling, and let's talk about the origin story of lizard skin. [00:04:44] Brian Fruit: Well, that's a, that's a good one. Yeah, it's been. Three decades ago now dating myself a little bit I was a college student at BYU and I got my first mountain bike. I worked, you know, most of the summer and saved up some money and got a mountain bike and, and thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. Not just for the awesome writing that we were able to do in the mountains. Just as a way to get around campus and commute. It was just so much more liberating than fighting the parking spots. So I just fell in love with cycling. I think I'd, you know, from a very small age, I've always loved everything with wheels on it. And then this mountain bike was, that was a revelation. So fast forward a few more years and I'm a senior about to graduate and there's a company. Called Reflex bikes. [00:05:35] Craig Dalton: I remembered them. [00:05:36] Brian Fruit: yeah, they made these cool lugged frames. You know, some of them were aluminum tubes, some of 'em were carbon tubes, and they sold to another company. Look, that makes, you know, pedals and things like that. [00:05:49] Craig Dalton: And did Reflex have some sort of Utah connection or were you just familiar? [00:05:54] Brian Fruit: they were making 'em here in Utah, [00:05:56] Craig Dalton: I, Wow, I didn't know that. I had a girlfriend who had that one of those bikes in the very early nineties. [00:06:02] Brian Fruit: Did it creak? [00:06:03] Craig Dalton: It creeped. And the one thing I remembered too about it was that there was some really challenging cable routing. So when it came time to build it up, it was like a nightmare. Getting something through the bottom bracket, I think was what I struggled with. [00:06:17] Brian Fruit: Yeah. So it was a cool bike and it had a great designer and, and he had sold the business. And, and moved over to Europe actually to, to work on design there. And, and apparently there was a, a trademark issue on the name reflex. And the people that owned it were no longer willing to allow that name to be used. And so, Look just said, I think we're just done with this, but this doesn't make sense for us to be involved with. So they decided to liquidate everything. So rims and cranks and headsets, and you name it, bottom brackets, shifters, handlebar. And, and so they sent out these postcards to all these stores, and my friend worked as a bike patrol at Sundance Ski Resort, brought the. Postcard home. And I'm like, that's kind of interesting. So I drove up there the next day and I bought $300 worth of bike parts. Didn't have any money. I was just a college student and all the way home like, Oh, what am I doing? I don't have 300 bucks is the worst decision ever. And I sold all those parts that night to just random people in the apartment complex and friends that I rode with. It's cuz there was no social media back then. This is, you know, early 90. 92, I believe. And and the next day I went up there again, like, you know, being drawn to the, you know, bike parts, like the bug to the blue light zapper, and bought like $300 of the parts again and all the way home. Like, Oh, what am I doing? This is the worst decision ever. Sold all those parts again. And that was it. You know, over the next six weeks I was buying and selling parts and I sold them to bike stores and I sold them to individuals and I, I sold about $30,000 worth of parts, made a decent amount of money on that, bought my wife a wedding ring and saved up a little money for us to get married. And, and that's kind of how how my life got started. You know, in the bike world, I just kind of fell in love with the whole, the whole scene and, and not the people, but even like the smells when you walk into a bike store, I just like the smell of a bike store. It just, I know that sounds weird, but it just feels right in bike stores. I, even, when I'm on vacation, I like to go try to find a bike store to pop my head in and look around, so, [00:08:49] Craig Dalton: What an, that's an amazing kind of origin story, and I love the name dropping of reflex. It brings back very, very fond memories for me. So did you continue sort of pursuing kind of like a distribution type business model? [00:09:04] Brian Fruit: So, that lasted for about six weeks. You know, they were selling all those parts at this big discount and that just kind of made me think, man, something in the bike industry would be really fun. And we looked at two or three ideas and, and. None of 'em actually worked out. And then a friend introduced me to another friend and that guy's name was Lance Larson. And Lance had this idea of making neoprene and Velcro accessories for bicycles and calling 'em lizard skin. and but Lance wasn't a, a writer and he wasn't really familiar with the space. So he and I connected and, and in the simplest terms, the original, you know, premise was that he would make the products and I would sell 'em. It, it didn't really work out exactly like that. There was a lot more crossing over, back and forth, but Lance and I got to work together for eight and a half years. And, and built the company from nothing. The very first month we did $350 of annual sales. [00:10:09] Craig Dalton: Do you remember what the first product was that you came out with? [00:10:12] Brian Fruit: Yeah, yeah, it was the little neoprine and Velcro chainstay protector and man, they were small back then. It was like a really small length and really small diameter. And now, you know, they make the tubes so much larger. You know, the, the old one wouldn't even fit on a bike today. [00:10:29] Craig Dalton: Yep. Yeah. If you think about those old steel tube change stays that used to wrap, they were tiny, like the, like the size of your pink. [00:10:36] Brian Fruit: Yeah, so small. Exactly. And we made all kinds of fun colors and, and we made these little headset seals that would keep the dirt and grim out of the headset. And then eventually we started making fork boots, which would keep the dirt out of the front fork because the seals back then weren't very good. And then we made a same kind of a boot for the rear shock. And eventually started making rubber injection molded grips. And then we added in some BMX products. We made BMX pad sets and BMX plates and BMX shin guards and elbow guards. And and then, you know, I bought my partner out and, and that, that took several years and there wasn't a lot of extra cash, you know, cuz. Everything just seemed to go to him to, to buy him out. And, and eventually we got that all done. And, and then we were able to really kind of move forward more dramatically because we had, you know, some money to work with. [00:11:34] Craig Dalton: Right, Right, right. Yeah, I, I think back across that period that you're describing, and I do remember those original lizard skin chain guards, but I probably, I remember more. Like the arrival of color, cuz back in the early nineties, certainly on the mountain bike scene, that was the heyday of anize parts and finding any, any way to make your bike a little bit more colorful and have a little flare to it. [00:11:59] Brian Fruit: Oh, people were putting on Coca Cranks and Cook Brothers and, and you know, Paul components and everything was purple and red and yellow and, you know, green and yeah, you could buy a, a Chris King headset and it was all Rastafari and [00:12:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was, it was like there was so much innovation going on back then in the world of mountain bikes, and I mean, I think that's what I've enjoyed about the last several years in the gravel bike world is you just see that kind of innovation. No one knows exactly what's right. The bike designers have been given a lot of freedom to design bikes that, you know, range from a road plus bike to a full on bike packing bike, and they're all in this, this quote unquote new genre of gravel cycling. [00:12:49] Brian Fruit: It is fun. I rode a friend of mine's you know, bike packing bike just earlier this week, and. It was super fun, you know, it just had a, a cool geometry to it. And, and he had, he had outfitted mountain bike breaks onto his, you know, drop bar controls, and it had some significant breaks. You know, he's a bike store guy and he figured out how to do it. It was awesome. [00:13:16] Craig Dalton: at what year did you sort of transition your business partner out and start to think really like what new products could you innovate? [00:13:24] Brian Fruit: Yeah, so I bought him out in 2001 you know, early part of 2001. And you know, we, the philosophy then was like, turn over every rock just. If nothing else to see what was under underneath. And you know, we bought different equipment to do our manufacturing with. We, we just really tightened up to try to make everything more frankly more profitable and more efficient. [00:13:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I meant to ask earlier, did you, at what point did you bring manufacturing in-house and what does that look like from an equipment perspective? [00:13:59] Brian Fruit: So we were making these little neoprine and Velcro accessories in the United States from day one and, and still do 30 years later. So what it takes is, I mean, we did it differently. You know, in the old days, the equipment we used wasn't very efficient. We've got. Good stuff now. And so it's a dye press with a still rule dye and then that allows you to cut the fabric out in these perfect shapes. And anybody that's working on the dye press the first day, you know, you have to make sure and tell 'em, you know, if, if you're dropping the dye or if the dye is slipping outta your hands, just let it hit the ground. Like don't try to catch it, you know, cuz it's [00:14:45] Craig Dalton: Sharp all over. Yep. [00:14:47] Brian Fruit: we can, we can fix the, we can fix the dye. It's [00:14:50] Craig Dalton: And then after you, after you're dye cutting the neo printer, are you then going into a sewing process? [00:14:57] Brian Fruit: We have really nice commercial sewing machines. We use a zigzag stitch on it and we sew that in-house with different sizes of Velcro on each side. And then kind of do some trimming to make it look. And then we package it up all, you know, done in the us. So, you know, that was a good thing and we were able to make a super high quality product and, and we sold a lot of those. Eventually a lot of the brands started adding some type of a. Chain protector or you know, chain stay guard to the bikes and it, and definitely impacted our sales. But we added these other products, you know, injection molded grips, and eventually we created a great relationship with odi where they made a. a significant line of lock on grips for us under their, under their patent and technology, but sold by us, under our name and, and to our customers. [00:15:53] Craig Dalton: With ODI manufacturing in the US as well. [00:15:56] Brian Fruit: That's correct. Yep. They're out in California actually, so, you know, it's like, double hard in the United States and California , but great product and they, they have great tooling and they could make these grips just so crisp and clean and, and the technology they have just, and still have is, is second to none. So we teamed up with them on, on lock, on grips. And then eventually we really wanted to come up with a lightweight mountain by grip that was just different. And so we checked into another industry and we made some appointments and we started visiting factories, hoping to get this lightweight grip you know, maybe for cross country racing. And, and unfortunately we weren't successful in finding, you know, that. You know, through maybe another industry. But on that trip we figured out that we found a company that could make tape for us. And it was literally my, my general manager, Brad Barker. And he and I were on this trip together, and as we were about to walk out the, the the building, the business, he kind of turned around and asked them. It was like, Hey, could you guys make tape for. And they're like, Oh yeah, we could totally do that. He says, Great. I'll, I'll, I'll be in touch. So, you know, he says, Brian, I really wanna try this. I really wanna, you know, sink my teeth into it. So, you know, he was working with the factory back and forth about nine months and making samples for handlebar tape for road bikes. The first sample was like, what, 12 or 18 inches long? And we're like, Well, this is not gonna work. And then the next sample was, you know, really long, but the product didn't stretch. Well, that's not gonna work. And so we went through rendition, after rendition after rendition, frankly, not knowing how to create the proper tech kit to speed the process along, but just trial and error and. [00:18:01] Craig Dalton: was there something in the road bike market that you felt was missing like some type of performance out of the grip that you guys saw as an opportunity? [00:18:09] Brian Fruit: Yeah, that's a great a great question. We, we did feel like that there could be something different. Most of the tape that was available at that time was the synthetic cork and you know, gets dirty and it kind of slippery and it wasn't really any. as to it or any technical, anything. So when we came out with ours, it was completely different and had a much different texture and feel. It, it actually felt softer even though it was the same thickness and way more grippy and it was cleanable. You could just take a little alcohol and a, and a clean, you know, white rag or something. You could clean it right up and, and it wasn't stained and dirty. So we ended up finding a product that was gonna work and we were really proud of, of the product we had designed. And then the factory told us how much it was gonna cost and it was like one of those, you know, stressful moments and we're like, Ugh, how's this ever gonna work? Cuz Bar Tape at that time sold for 15 to $20 for, you know, the common synthetic co. [00:19:18] Craig Dalton: Yep. [00:19:19] Brian Fruit: Ours was gonna be $35. . And so we're just like, Oh, this is gonna be tough. But everybody that touched our tape loved it. And so we're like, Well, we just gotta get people to touch it, you know? Cuz once they do, they'll love it. And that's the phrase, Touch it, feel it, love it came from [00:19:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I, you know, it's so, it is poignant when you put your hands on some lizard skin tape, it feels different. You know, I'm riding it on my, my bike right now and. Everything you've just described is what I've felt about it, like it feels When I'm barehanded I often ride barehanded and I, I feel much more connected to the grip because of the sort of, I dunno, stickiness is the right word, but this kind of sticky quality that I feel when riding it that's quite different than court grip. [00:20:12] Brian Fruit: Yeah, it's, it's grippy, you know, and it's from this patented, you know, technology and material that that our partner supplier created in tandem with us. And and it's just been absolutely wonderful. [00:20:28] Craig Dalton: So it's, so, it's so interesting to me as, Sorry to interrupt Brian. Just as like a business journey, you sort of realize, hey, we've got something unique here, but I can't tell you about it. You've gotta feel it and touch it to believe and see. I can imagine, like in the bike industry, that's a challenge, right? To kind of just translate that into the hands of enough people to develop a passionate following to say, I'm willing to pay this premium price for this performance now that I know about it. [00:20:59] Brian Fruit: So I happened to be on a, a family trip, and again, I love bike stores, right? So we have a distributor in Guatemala that, that was selling our product and they had a bike store. So I went and visited that store while we were on this family trip. And there was a customer that came in and he had a road bike, I think it was a tri bike actually. And the handlebar tape was all falling off and, and I just happened to hand him my handlebar sample that I had and he just fell in love with it. And he told the, the manager owner of the store there, he's like, I want this. And and we told him kind of what the price was, and that's a lot of money in Guatemala. and he's like, No, no, I want that tape. Like, so give me that tape. And, and that's kind of how it's worked. Like we pay a ton more for our tape. It's not that we make a lot of money on it. We actually have a pretty tight margin on it, but the manufacturing cost is just a lot more because of what the product is and the, the materials that are, that are used. But once you feel it, it's like, . Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna splurge and I'm, I'm, This is what I want. [00:22:12] Craig Dalton: So are you still using the same manufacturing partner [00:22:15] Brian Fruit: We are, Yeah. And they've come up with, you know, new technology and, and you know, improvements to the polymer to make it, you know, even more grippy and even more durable. So it's been nice. You know, we did a complete redesign on the tape a couple years ago, two or three years ago now. And the new tape actually has a pattern on it. And if you looked at that pattern with like a, a jeweler's loop or a magnifying glass, you would see that the pattern is like, It, it's multi depth. So some of the little bumps are really deep, some are less deep, some are really shallow, just to maximize the feel and control on the bike you know, with, with these different dimensions into the pattern. So pretty technical. [00:23:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think as as riders, we benefit from your obsession over this one little part of the bike. Say, how can we make it the best it can be? [00:23:15] Brian Fruit: I mean down that same conversation, and this is not a, This is me telling a bad story about myself. Unfortunately, not a good business story, but our plug that we had was really cool looking and was shiny and, and had the little lizard on it, but it did have a tendency to fall out. You know, if you didn't leave enough tape tucked in. So some people, it worked great and it never fell out, but other people, it fell out. So I wanted to get a new screw in plug and, and unfortunately we allowed ourselves to run out of plugs during that process. And probably lost a million dollars of sales just because we didn't. The actual plug that I wanted and I didn't want to go back to the old plug, cuz in my mind it already moved on to the new plug and the supplier for the new plug was being a Turkey and not making a for us. And, and we had to actually switch, you know, suppliers and, and but honestly now we have an amazing screw and plug which is a super simple thing and like, it shouldn't even be like a big thought, but. It probably cost me a ton of money making that transition, just cuz we didn't, we didn't wanna continue on with the old one and we didn't have our ducks in a row on the new one we thought we did. But but [00:24:32] Craig Dalton: I think anybody who's ever manufactured anything can commiserate with that story, myself included. [00:24:39] Brian Fruit: So, but now we got a great plug and the supplier's good and, and everything's, everything's functioning well. [00:24:46] Craig Dalton: You know, one of the, one of the things when you visit the lizards in skin site as a customer is that the first thing you see is an array of colors. And you're like, Great, if I wanna create some accent color, like you just have so many different unique colors available for the bar tape. But when you select your color and you get into it, you also then realize there's this secondary, probably much more important from a performance perspective, opportunity to choose your thick. Of color. For most riders, you probably buy bar tape and you don't even think about it. I don't know what the average is. Maybe it's a two and a half millimeter, but on your site you've got, I think it's 1.8 millimeter, 2.5, 3.2, and 4.6 millimeter bar tape, which is a pretty wide array. [00:25:35] Brian Fruit: So when we started this journey on making Hbar tape And we really tried to figure out what everybody else was doing and trying to get understanding. So we were out there with a micrometer trying to measure it and, and kind of the normal standard tape out there was about 2.5 millimeters, but nobody ever called that out. There was never any technical data. It was just a box and it. You know, Hbar tape with no detail. So we came out originally with the 2.5, which is still our very best seller and it's kind of the most common that you would see. But we had a request for some thinner tape, and there were some customers that said, Oh man, you know, you need to make it a little thinner. So then we came out with a 1.8 in limited colors. And, and we found that certain people in, in certain, you know, applications really like the thinner product and especially people with a little bit smaller hand because they just couldn't get their hand comfortably around, you know, this big fat bar. Big fat tape. Then we had a lot of people was like, Oh, why don't you make a thicker tape? You know? And I think they were like, Man, if you're gonna make a thinner one, why don't you make a thicker one? So then we came out with a 3.2 and you know, the packaging was bigger. Everything about the, the thing is just bigger. And people loved it. Like, man, it, it quickly became a great seller for us. Not better than the 2.5, but it was better than the one eight in fact. And so we've done real well with the three, two, and it lays down nice. And then we just had certain customers you know, wanting to do gravel rides, you know, cobbles, maybe they just have hands that hurt. You know, they have, could be an injury, just could be the way they are on the bike. But their hands just go numb and get sore. They. They wanted more cued. And so some people would like double wrap their bars. You know, but that, that has some challenges to it. So it came out with this 4.6 and it's a beast. It is a big, old fat role. But super comfortable when you get it on. It is a little harder to lay it down, you know? And. In all honesty, if you're wrapping 2.5, that's pretty easy. 3.2 takes a little more finesse and 4.6, it takes a decent amount of experience to make it lay nice and flat, but. [00:28:07] Craig Dalton: interesting to layer in those op those options for gravel cyclists. Obviously, like on this podcast we've got had lots of discussions around, you know, how do you create suspension? You start with your body, then the tires. Then grip tape's gonna play. Play a role in there. And again, for all the reasons you're just talking about, for some people, they're really taking a lot of abuse in their hands for one reason or another. Maybe they've got an injury and I, I could see having that option available to them, even if it's for a special purpose, a special event, wrapping your bars in a separate way. I remember back in the Perry Ru Bay classic days. When you're talking about people doing double wrap bar tape, everybody was consorting themselves in the prop peloton to find some way to make their bikes more comfortable. For days like Perry rba. [00:28:57] Brian Fruit: Yeah, and there's been a few different products made, you know, like, little gel packs and little foam pieces and stuff to put underneath there, and. And, and they work to some degree, but you know, the gel packs are break or they'll get kind of wiggly and the handlebar tape doesn't work well with it. And by doing this nice 4.6 and the 3.2, like, it just fits. It's just there. It's solid. You don't have to worry about a bump or a weird spot on there. And it, and it's been successful. [00:29:30] Craig Dalton: And as I understand things, you've been also getting feedback from a couple pro tour teams for the bar tape. [00:29:36] Brian Fruit: We were very fortunate to get a pro tour team to use the HA Bar tape many, many years ago. That first team was the con and this was kind of like a Forest Gump moment. But they were using our tape and one of their writers Johnny Hoer. Always being indebted to him. He was leading the polka dot jersey competition, the mountain mountain points in the tour, Frances, and it was a flat part of the beginning of the, of the tour. So ultimately he was doing breakaways and getting these points and on one of those days that he was in a breakaway, you know, getting a, a handful of mountain. A press car bumped him and another rider. And they went off the road and into a Bob wire fence. They hit that fence so hard that it actually pulled the P wood post outta the ground. And as just hardcore professionals, they got back on the bike, all cut up and dazed and, and jerseys and shorts all ripped up from the Bob wire. And, you know, their team gives 'em a push and off they go. You. At the end of the race, you know, Johnny gets off and he had been bandaged by the medical car and you know, they're trying to bandage him as he was riding his bike. So by the time he finished the race, you know, most of the bandages were falling off. It was a mess. And they interviewed him afterward and his attitude was like, this was an accident. I wished it wouldn't happened. This is gonna really mess up my opportunities at the tour, but it could have been worse. Let's move on. The other gentleman, writer that got hit had a very different take. His team was trying to find out who was responsible, who was gonna pay. It was just very bitter and, and interestingly enough, everyone fell in love with Johnny. And they started looking at his bike and once those chain rings he used and what kind of bike it was and what was his saddle and what kind of handlebar tape he used. Oh my goodness. Our handlebar tape started selling like crazy. [00:31:55] Brian: So all the distributors started having a run on the product and they ran out of, you know, lizards, skins, bar tape, and and boom. That was it. That was our four Gump moment. Handlebar tape became the most popular aftermarket tape in the world. And it was because, you know, one guy was was cool, you know, [00:32:17] Craig: And thrown into and thrown into a barb wire fence. I remember those images. [00:32:22] Brian: Oh. But you know, he just handled it right. You know, I think a lot of times in life we all have bad things that happen to us that are out of our control, but it's how we handle those things that kind of impact, you know. How we interact with the rest of the world [00:32:42] Craig: Yeah, as you remind me of that story, I remember very viscerally thinking about, gosh, this is gonna be another Primadonna roadie that has a tantrum. And I remember how you describe like the other team, the other writer. It was just this big to do and you know, who's gonna pay for this and how do we replace how he would've done throughout this tour juxtaposed to how Johnny handled it and how their team handled it. [00:33:10] Brian: Yeah, it was it was, it was pretty crazy. So, taught me, you know, a great lesson, right, of, you know, it's important to manage how we react you know, to, to potentially bad things, you know, happening to. So, you know, how we behave can really, you know, change overall how something goes down. [00:33:34] Craig: Yeah. Such, such an amazing journey and so cool that you've been able to do it using us manufacturing all this time. I love that part of the story. Before I let you go, Brian, I did wanna touch on one other thing because I think it's interesting. I mean, the gravel cyclist should go to your site and check out the different dimensions of bar tape and all those cool colors. You have great product. It definitely delivers that kind of grippiness and unique feel that we were talking about earlier. But I was also bemused to learn that you're also into several different sports, and I think the listeners would kind of dig hearing just a little bit about your journey into those other sports. [00:34:13] Brian: Y. So Hannah Bar tape was, was doing extremely well. And one of the guys from work Brad Barker that helped design the tape. Originally, he loved baseball. He had boys that were playing on baseball teams. Had another friend from college that, that gave me that little postcard for the sale at at Reflex actually. He. He was one of the guys that helped me feed my mountain bike passion. He had three boys that loved baseball and they were all putting this tape on baseball bats, bicycle tape on baseball bats. So it, it, it was like, Huh, is there something there? So we started making two thicknesses of baseball grip. We made a 1.1. Which is kind of the traditional thickness for baseball. And we made a 1.8, which is a little thicker. You know, think of the 3.2 in cycling, that kind of thing. And we put it out there. We won best of show for the first trade show we went to, and, and you know, nothing really happened. But when we sold the stuff into a store, it, it, it did. . So we figured out, it's like, well, we just have to increase the amount of stores. So we eventually got a bunch of stores selling it, and then there was a local probe by the name of John Buck. He connected up with us and wanted to go to a trade show and we said, That'd be great. You can share our booth and you can show your product in our booth and it, and it'll be fun. So we start that and at that show, . He brings his bats and we wrap 'em for him. And the whole time he's like feeling the bat, you know, while talking to customers about his products. And at the end of the show he's like, you know, if you made this thinner, I would use it in the pros and I would get other people to use it in the pros and I think have something. So Brad came back from that show and we talked and he says, this is, this is the convers. and we both looked at each other like 130 years of history with people using like sticky stuff, pine tar on baseball bats. Like, how in the world are we gonna change that tradition? Like, that's never gonna happen. And they were like, Yeah, probably not. And they were like, What? What should we do? And we both agreed it's a pro player, we should probably make it. So we did, we made a, a thinner version, one or a 0.5, really, really. and John started using it. Hunter Penn started using it. Big Poppy started using it like, you know, Miguel Cabret, I mean, just tons of these great players and they were sluggers and and eventually we got invited to go to the Equipment Manager show for Major League Baseball, which then led to us getting a license of Major League Baseball where we became the official bat grip on field license. for Major League Baseball and, and it was amazing and our sales grew, grew, grew, which allowed us to hire more people and get into a bigger, you know, better facility and you know, hire more designers and then continue to make more products and and grow the company. [00:37:33] Craig: Yeah, cuz now you're in baseball, hockey, lacrosse as well as cycling. [00:37:39] Brian: and recently we just added pickle. [00:37:42] Craig: Of course, the rise of pickleball, that is the moment in time we're in [00:37:48] Brian: So it and each of these sports, the product is different. So we're not just repackaging, we're actually redesigning the product each time. So you know how long it needs to be, what's the thickness, what type of a backing do we use? For cycling, we use an EVA backing, but for baseball we use afil. [00:38:09] Craig: Yeah. [00:38:10] Brian: you know, different patterns and the gripping qualities on the patterns are very different. So, we've, we've replicated ourself effectively in all these different sports. [00:38:23] Craig: When you, when you think about the business now, what percentage is cycling versus everything else? [00:38:29] Brian: Wow. I mean, in 2020, you know, there was a surge and cycling was the biggest part of the. 2021, it was still great. 2022. You know, cycling sales have, have slowed a little bit because there's a lot of inventory that's been shipped out there. So baseball is now the biggest part of the, of the business. Cycling is second, and then hockey would be third. [00:38:52] Craig: Gotcha. [00:38:53] Brian: So, [00:38:55] Craig: Yeah, super interesting story. Totally appreciate you sharing the journey with me. I enjoyed the conversation. [00:39:02] Brian: Oh, you bet. It, it's been a lot of fun. You know, I look back I, I wouldn't have wanted to go a different route, you know, I've loved the cycling industry and I actually started lizard scans and then several years later I, I started a bike store and then a couple years later I bought another bike store and, and I still have those bike stores. They're, they're great. I love 'em. And, and it, it just, it feels like walking into the Cheers bar, you know, from, from that sitcom. So when you go in the bike store, that's what it feels like, you know, it's just like, it, it's just, it's another home, right? [00:39:42] Craig: absolutely. Yeah. We all, I I hope that many of the listeners out there have that kind of relationship with their local bike shop, cuz I certainly do in my town. I love going there, I love seeing all the team that works there and, and just saying hi and having that familiar, you know, love of the sport that you can share. [00:40:00] Brian: Yeah, it's just, you know, fun getting to have friends continue to come in and get to see 'em. I mean, it's almost like a little mini fan family reunion, like every day that you go in the store. So [00:40:12] Craig: Yeah, absolutely. Well, have a great weekend, Brian, and we'll talk again soon. [00:40:17] Brian: appreciate it. Take. [00:40:19] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Brian from lizard skin for joining I hope you enjoyed learning a little bit about his journey and are intrigued by some of the other product categories that they've found themselves in over the years. Definitely go check them out@lizardskins.com. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, that bar tape's been, it's been interesting trying out the different diameters. I'm still in the 2.4 camp, But I am curious about that 1.8 thickness bar tape as well. If you're interested in connecting with me, please join the ridership. That's w w w dot the ridership.com. That's a free global cycling community. It's hosted on slack. So it's basically a slack channel that you can communicate with other gravel, cyclists. From all around the world. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated until next time. Here's the finding some dirt under your wheels

Episode SummaryWelcome to Dr. Brian's Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's TikTok video which poses questions centered on Creatine, working out and BLANK. What is Creatine? How does it impact your muscles? What are the potential side effects of Creatine? Is Creatine safe for teenagers? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap) Key Takeaways01:05 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic, Is Creatine Safe for Teens? 02:30 – What is Creatine? 04:50 – What does Creatine do to your muscles? 05:57 – Creatine in adults 09:30 – An interesting story about Popeye and spinach 12:02 – The best way to use Creatine 13:06 – Creatine in teens 15:02 – Side effects of Creatine 18:17 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap of today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap) Tweetable Quotes“Creatine is a substance that is naturally occurring in muscles. So, when you're doing intense exercise for example, you're lifting weights or doing sprints, it's Creatine that is providing energy to your muscles.” (02:46) (Dr. Brian) “What a lot of people don't realize is Creatine is also in your brain. So, Creatine is good for brain health.” (03:43) (Dr. Brian) “Creatine also – and this may be of real interest to you – can increase hormones, specifically growth hormone.” (05:39) (Dr. Brian) “So it's pretty clear, I think we can establish, that Creatine does amazing things for muscles, not only in strength but also in their growth and bulking too.” (09:18) (Dr. Brian) “Let's talk about side effects. There is no evidence that Creatine harms the liver or harms the kidneys in healthy people who take normal healthy doses.” (15:01) (Dr. Brian) “If you are losing your hair and you're taking Creatine, it may not be a bad idea to talk to your doctor and ask to get a simple blood test to see what your DHT level is. DHT stands for Dihydrotestosterone.” (17:41) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDr. Brian's amazing new book on social media, INFLUENCED, featuring his incredible insights and experiences along with many of your favorite influencers. Endorsed by many influencers including Rob “Gronk” Gronkowski - https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/ (https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/) DM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

Episode SummaryWelcome to The Dr. Brian's Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his analysis on today's topic: Confessions of a Social Media Influencer. What inspired Dr. Brian to write INFLUENCED ? How can a rush of dopamine impact your judgment or decision-making skills? What can happen when a successful doctor goes viral on TikTok? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap) Key Takeaways01:12 – Dr. Brian makes an exciting announcement about his upcoming book at https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com (https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com) and introduces today's topic: Confessions of a Social Media Influencer 02:02 – Dr. Brian takes a moment to thank the other influencers who helped make his book possible, including Dr. Tony Youn, Dr. Fayez Ajib, and many more 03:07 – The inspiration to write, INFLUENCED 04:11 – Three confessions of a TikTok influencer 05:15 – Dr. Brian's journey to becoming an influencer 08:53 – TikTok Purgatory and Dr. Brian's first viral video 10:52 – A dopamine rush unlike any other 12:54 – One Million Followers and ‘Learned Helplessness' 16:03 – Dr. Brian provides a quick recap of today's episode and provides sage advice on social media and the impact it can have on all of our lives Tweetable Quotes“I came up with three reasons for testing my chops on TikTok. It might be a good way to dispel misinformation being spread. I could gain a more comprehensive perspective as part of my research for the book. And, as I will explain in full subsequent chapters, I thought it showed some promise of providing me with fun and a pleasurable dopamine rush.” (05:40) (Dr. Brian) “There were also occasions when I misstepped and accidentally violated the TikTok community guidelines. Here's an invaluable hint for every TikTok influencer wannabe. Never post a video of eye surgery on TikTok Live. If you do not heed my advice, welcome to TikTok purgatory.” (08:53) (Dr. Brian) “I cannot do justice to describing the elated feeling that enveloped me on my drive home. I had earned my share of accomplishments throughout my career as a medical professional and surgeon, but had never felt anything like this before. The dopamine swarming in my brain made me feel higher than a coffee addict breaking into a Starbucks coffee shop in the envelope of darkness to swipe all the espresso beans and manically knock back one shot after the other.” (10:52) (Dr. Brian) “Once the viral videos resumed, I approached being an Influencer from an entirely different perspective, one that was grounded and healthy. I had to control my dopamine balance and always put my family first. They are far more important to me than my millions of followers.” (15:42) (Dr. Brian) “So there you have it. My confession. I am a recovered TikTok-aholic. Being an influencer has the potential to be addictive and destructive. Mine is a cautionary tale. But at least I can say I safely made it to the other side with my sanity and family intact.” (16:03) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDr. Brian's amazing new book on social media, INFLUENCED, featuring his incredible insights and experiences along with many of your favorite influencers. Endorsed by many influencers including Rob “Gronk” Gronkowski - https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/ (https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/) DM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please...

Brian T. Bradley, Esq. is a nationally recognized Asset Protection Attorney. He has been interviewed and a featured guest on many top shows such as: Bigger Pockets Rookie, Flipping America Podcast with Roger Blankenship the “Flipping America Guy” and member of the Forbes Magazine Real Estate Council. Brian was selected to the Best Attorney's of America's List 2020, Lawyers of Distinction List three years in a row (2018, 2019, 2020,) Super Lawyers Rising Star List 2015, nominated to America's Top 100 High Stake Litigators List, nominated to the 2017 Law Firm 500 Award. Brian also writes on high-end asset protection. Ownership of real estate has many benefits from an investment and tax standpoint. There is downside risk, however, since the value of real estate holdings may be significant and can be used to cover damages awarded in a lawsuit. Therefore, it's important to consider asset protection strategies relating to real estate holdings in order to minimize such risk. In today's episode, Brian lays out how asset protection really works from a legal standpoint and dispels some common myths that are thrown around in the industry. Episode Link: https://btblegal.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by Brian Bradley, asset protection attorney and he's going to be dropping some knowledge about all the things we should be aware of as real estate investors when it comes to protecting our assets. So let's get into it.   Brian, what's going on, man? Thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with me today. I really appreciate it.   Brian: No, absolutely Michael, thanks for having me on. It's going to be an important topic, a fun topic, I'm gonna try to keep it fun and not legally dense and you know, just like I'm not anyone's, you know, Attorney here legal guru. So we're just gonna be talking generalities, right? We're gonna learn a lot in this, you know, it's gonna be a lot of fun and as you're building scale and making more money, you know, you're getting a bigger red button on you and so like this world of where we're gonna be talking about asset protection is kind of a big deal. There's just a lot of ways to skin a cat, different layers, different strategies for where you're at in your life. So, you know, I think as we break these down, hopefully I can, you know, make this will make a little bit more sense for you and your listeners.   Michael: Yes, it will. Thank you. I am super excited to learn a lot because before we hit record here, you and I were chatting about some of the topics that we'll be covering today and I was like, what is that totally brand new. So I'm really excited from a self-serving perspective. So give everyone that quick and dirty background who doesn't know Brian Bradley, who you are, where you come from, and what is it you're doing in real estate today?   Brian: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I'm an asset protection attorney, you know, we're talking about it off recording, like from Lake Tahoe, so you know, big snowboard ski, you know, ski bum, you know, Lake bum, I got into asset protection from the litigation side of the law, I was selected to America's best attorney list 2021-2020 Super Lawyers rising star 2021-2015.   Michael: My guess is that no, that's not like an online survey, you filled out to get that…   Brian: Oh, no, and another do with me, that's really just people that you work their butt up in court, and then they recommend you or judges recommend you and I have nothing to do with it and it's actually pretty, you know, I appreciate even just the nomination, let alone winning it, you know, to where I think they only say 1% of all attorneys in the nation even get nominated for those awards, let alone then, you know, 1% of those even gets picked to as a as a winner and so…   Michael: Congratulations…   Brian: Thanks, yeah and for me getting into, you know, asset protection, which will define what that is, you know, in a minute, like, that'll be like our think our base starting point. I just, I just got into this weird area of law, because when I like money, I like investing, I like, you know, not paying as much taxes as you know, as I can and as you grow, you got to be smart with your money, right and who can take it from you and so as a trial lawyer starting out, I just had so many clients who were being sued and their lives just turned completely upside down coming to me after they're already being sued and at that point, you know, you're just too far down the rabbit hole, you know, it's like going to get a car insurance after you already got in an accident or, you know, home insurance after your house already, you know, caught on fire, it's just, it's not gonna happen and so I see a lot of people thinking that they don't need to do anything is another misconception. You know, it's kind of human nature, right? You know, like, I'm just gonna ride lady luck. I'll deal with it when I when, you know, it hits me later on and that's just not how anything that needs to be proactive in the legal sense is going to work like insurance or asset protection. Wishful thinking is not a protection tool. You know, that's how everything you know, like, go to Vegas, go to breaks and hit the roulette table and see how long your wishful thinking is gonna last for you, right? You know or, you know, as you're leveling up, people forget about this. Like, as your wealth is leveling up, you're leveling up, you don't level up your protection, you don't level up your insurance. Yeah, people go buy an umbrella policy, but they don't realize what an umbrella policy is just like everything else, right? You know, it just provides more access and money to, you know, for coverage, but it doesn't, it's not the same escape clauses, you know, like, there's no insurance in the world that's gonna say, okay, hey, if I go punch you in the face, are you gonna cover it for me? No, like, they don't cover you for intentional wrongdoings or allegations of fraud and intentional wrongs and so that's how they have their escape clauses out especially for very big cases. You know, if you're talking about like a million dollar or more lawsuit. A couple other big misconceptions that we need to address as we lay this landscape is just, you know, the revocable living trust, if people think like, oh, yeah, I have a trust, right, that you know, they don't realize trust. There's a lot of different types of trust. Your family estate plan, your revocable living trust are not designed to protect you while you're living in they don't have the lead have teeth to be able to. So once you pass, they're only designed to avoid probate not protect you while you're living from lawsuits and then over the last five years, I've noticed this massive misconception about the use of limited liability companies. LLCs and they just think that they're like, you know, Silver Bullet Dracula slayers and you guys miss, like, first word first letter, like limited, I tell you. Whereas, whereas this happened, where's this come from? Like, they're not hiding the fact they tell you like they titled it telling you limited liability. So like, now we have to reeducate people on this, like, yeah, don't put everything in the world under one LLC. Otherwise, if it gets pierced, you're gonna lose it on like, What are you talking about, which we'll break that down, you know, in a little bit. And then the sad thing is like, and I think it's worth explaining is this, if you just look around, and you look at, you know, our legal system and the world we live in, it's just broken, it's a broken system, you know, and we're so happy nirvana and just to like, kind of lay this framework down a little bit more. We're no longer about justice. We're about redistributing wealth from the haves, which is you, your listeners, people trying to grow and accumulate more to the have nots and over the last 40-50 years, things that didn't happen in the past, or that weren't allowed to happen in the past like contingency fee lawyers or law from advertising their common place. and then this created a cultural shift of a predatory legal system that's no longer about justice. So it's about profits now and then when you get on the road of high net worth, in affluent families and wealth, this level of protection, now we have to deal with taking a macroeconomic, more of like a global look about what's going on and the big picture here is really that we have a global financial system that has structurally deep rooted issues. You know, we have government backed fiat currencies that are now in question. This is also including the US dollar. So don't think like, just because we're in the US, we're exempt from all of this, you know, monetary policy today, you know, the one that exists is, you know, inflate or die and then you got governments looking for a deep and accessible pools of financing and meaning our money, you know, the hard workers, the people who are investing, along with financial repression, monetary economic manipulation. So this just adds all the challenges that we have to deal with when we're looking to protect your assets and so asset protection is that modern best bet to level this playing field by using a lot of the tools and the combination of the tools that we're going to talk about today to make it very hard for you to be collected on and so what this is really about is just like a talk about giving you peace of mind, lifestyle preservation, and you know, really just how collectible are you at the end of the day…   Michael: Love it. But well, I am all about doing things to help peace of mind and insulate ourselves from the world at large. This you happy world at large. So help us understand Brian, like, what are some of the things when someone says asset protection to you like, Brian, I gotta protect my assets? What does that mean to you? What alarm bells are going off in your head?   Brian: Yeah, absolutely. One is like, do you understand the difference between tax mitigation and asset protection and I've been getting this a lot, you know, especially this last year, obviously, as we see what's going on, you know, within inflation, taxes and everything right now, asset protection is not tax mitigation, like that's your CPE and wealth managers job. If creating an asset protection plan or an asset protection, trust or going offshore, you know, where to create tax havens like one that's illegal, it's fraud, you know, so system won't work, and then you go to jail for that type of stuff.   Michael: So don't do that is what you're saying.   Brian: That's not what this is about. So people always like, oh, I want to protect my assets and I don't want to pay taxes, completely two different things. The asset protection plan is to protect your assets from predatory lawsuits and litigation, not saying I want to not pay taxes, that's tax mitigation, talk to your CPA and wealth managers. First, lock down your assets from lawsuits because if you get sued and lose everything, what's your miracle working CPA going to be able to do for you if you have nothing for them to work on, so order of operation, protect your assets, then let them work through the system that's created to actually like mitigate, you know, forced depreciation, all those wonderful things that they do cost segue analysis…   Michael: Yeah but Brian, to that, to that point, really quick. I'm just curious, like, do you work with a lot of CPAs because I can see, I can envision a scenario in which the legal side of things is super buttoned up super tight, but maybe isn't very tax efficient and so my guess is there's probably a happy medium, or some input that a CPA or wealth manager can inject into the situation to help make both things as tight as possible.   Brian: Correct. You got to, you know, the issue generally is people don't involve their lawyers until later on down the line and it creates a lot of problems. So for example, a lot of CPAs will set up S Corps for investors, especially real estate investors for some reason, and great for tax purposes, horrible for litigation and I get this call a lot, you know, and most of my clients are calling with like 50 $100 million of real estate all stuffed in one S Corp. Okay, great again, for tax mitigation, horrible for let's say you get sued and now you're S Corp and all the shares get frozen and cease, there is nothing I can do for you. At that point, I can't move assets out and then even if I want it and you realize like, oh my god, I have so many pieces of property under one corporation like this is very risky, I need to start diversifying and employing these assets out, you're stuck, you're not going to be able to and I just had this call yesterday with a potential client. The reason is, when you're all the benefits of the S Corp, right? You know, deferred taxation and all this stuff, you're kicking the can down the road, once you start taking the assets out, you have to pay the money back and so people don't generally have millions of dollars sitting in their bank account saying like, okay, hey, I feel like you know, taking all the assets out of my S Corp now and now I'm going to go and pay the piper and the IRS. So because you don't have that money sitting around to pay the IRS and the taxes, we can move the assets for you and I'm not going to force you to go, you know, and have the IRS coming after you to collect on you and move the assets out anyways, because now you're just creating a bad situation for the client. So the lesson here to learn is if you're thinking of investing, you need to talk to both the lawyer and the CPA, because a lot of CPAs, they shouldn't be giving you legal advice. They're not lawyers, and they're not going to understand the aspect of what happens actually in court with s corpse and C corpse, when it comes to litigation, and why we don't want to use those to protect your assets. So we have to all talk together. The problem is I get this all I get the mess after the fact right, and then I have to start supporting afterwards and so when done, right, really, the modern, you know, estate planning is asset protection, what we're doing is creating legal barriers between your assets, and your potential creditor, the person suing you, the person trying to come after your money before it's needed and that's it, you know, it's like a safe for your gold or your guns or your valuables. Anything of value, you know, you want to put behind the legal barrier and out of your personal name so that it's not easily attached with a lien or reached and so I just like the rich, I really liked the Tony Robbins saying success leaves clues. The rich don't own things in their personal names their businesses do their trust, do they just get the beneficial use and enjoyment out of them while separating out that legal liability and we do that through just like different tools and mechanisms that we have kind of like key concepts and roadmaps like LLC is limited partnerships and trust.   Michael: Got it. Okay and so when real estate investor comes to you, they're just getting started. They are moist clay, you can totally mold them, they don't already have a bunch of issues. What is your go to, like ideal scenario for asset protection?   Brian: Yeah, so there, I mean, you're just starting out your green horn, like really just going to be an LLC and insurance and that's where you're gonna go, okay and as you think about how to use these systems and how to grow within them, okay, I want you and your listeners to think about winter, okay, like we were talking about this before we started recording like I'm from Lake Tahoe, snow, cold snowboarding skiing, I lived in Michigan, freezing cold arctic, you know, minus 40 degree weather for a while, well, I'm in Portland damp cold, you got to really layer you and so the first entry layer is as your base layer, when you're getting dressed, it's going to sit on your skin. This is the equivalent of an LLC and insurance. This is you know, when you're just starting out investing in you have zero to three units, or you know, zero to three properties, you're exposed net worth generally is like 250,000, net or below and then as you grow, and you add more assets, and you hit around that four unit or four property mark, you could be starting to invest in a couple different states as well, you know, you have now around like 500, to 700,000 exposed nets, what you need is a mid-layer, which is usually a little bit thicker, that's going to be made out of like a merino wool sweater, or for you ladies a car and again, this is your management company, like a limited partnership and I can break down that later on if we have time and then when you hit around that 1 million net worth mark, you know, you're gonna want to water shell waterproof layer. This keeps you nice and dry and warm when the weather's really bad. You know, this is your doomsday lawsuit protection layer is going to be an asset protection trust and specifically for our clients, we use a hybrid trust, which is combining an offshore trust and domesticating it through the IRS. So when a client comes to me, I receive it I realistically, you want four things you know, you want you're going to want an effective plan to have, you're going to want to control your plan. Three, you want a reasonable and sustainable cost, you know, depending on what layer you're at, is going to be individual for the for the client profile and then four you want a plan that's going to be easy to maintain compliance on what the IRS like I can create the strongest thing in the world for you. But if you're not going to be maintaining it and you don't want to do the IRS compliance with it, eventually you're just going to stop doing it and the whole system falls apart. So as you go through the valuation process and you're talking to different attorneys and you're vetting the process, just remember the acronym ECCC effectiveness, control cost and compliance and as long as you can start checking off all those boxes, you know you're gonna have a really good system. If you want to I can break down the first layer if you want to Trying to kinda go there like LLCs, or just really wherever you feel like directing this.   Michael: Yeah, so I think our listeners probably have a good handle on LLCs. But I would love if you would walk us through what this hybrid trust is because it's not something that I'm familiar with, I've never heard of before.     Brian: So yeah, and I think the reason why is like not many people focus on asset protection at a high level, you know, I think events like insurance, a lot of people wonder not only purely asset protection attorneys, right, they're generally business attorneys who do some asset protection or their real estate, you know, attorneys who do a little bit and they take continuing legal education course, learn about LLCs, and the kind of stops there and like insurance, they kind of tried to cast a large net nationwide, what was one thing you can cast nationwide and LLC and so I kind of think that's why like, the base layer, knowledge kind of stops there, because not many people just focus on, you know, very, very strong protection. This comes with the asset protection trust. So it's this final layer, the bad weather, you know, the outer shell waterproof layer, is this asset protection trust, it's going to be really the heart and soul of the system, especially when you have over 1 million exposed and that wealth and what I mean exposed is like your 401 K is exempt. So I don't include that in a net worth evaluation, because it's already a reset protecting some states, like if you're a Florida resident, we have a very strong homestead exemption of 100% of your of your primary residence. So I will take that out of the equation too, depending on the state you're in and the homestead. So what we're looking at is exposed unprotected, and that, you know, equity and wealth, all right. The great thing about trust is that they can be sculpted, to fit how you need them and they can morph as you need them without dealing with funding issues that you're going to fall into an LLC and other business entities that get their protection pierced, meaning now you're going to be held personally liable. So I just love trust and having a trust at the very top of the planning is very powerful and this is where picking the proper jurisdiction for a trust really comes into play. The standard 101 trust that I'm sure like everybody's familiar with, you know, kind of started in the 60s is the family revocable living trust. So you know, like when trust, you know, trust don't die. So then when you do, you act, and you fund your trust, which a lot of people forget to do, like, oh, I created my estate plan, and then they never transfer title into it. Remember, fund that fund the trust, if it's just, you know, your revocable living trust, the benefit of it is when you pass you don't have to go through probate, you can just skip the court system and probate and it changed the landscape of estate planning. Then you have what are called land trusts for real estate, you know, you hold your land, and then you connect them to an LLC. But land trusts don't have any protection in and of themselves. They're only as strong as the LLC that they're connected to, you know, so they're just a privacy mechanism, not a protection mechanism. Okay from there, you have higher levels of trust. They're called asset protection trust and I really want to spend the time, you know, with this and break down the three different types, you know, and after this, I think you and probably 99% of your listeners are going to know more than 99% of all the attorneys out there about asset protection, trust, they came, yeah, they came about in the early 1980s. You know, and so an asset protection trust is what's called a self-settled spendthrift trust. All sell settled means is that you created it for yourself, you know, they're for you, by you, as your own beneficiary, and they have very important spendthrift provisions in them. So this lets you protect your assets while you're actually living, you know, from creditors trying to sue you from not having to relinquish control of your assets. The difference is that they allow you to protect your assets, not just for your grandkids, but for yourself, which you weren't allowed to do in the past and then like I said, you're probably familiar with another type of self-settled trust the revocable living trust. They're the same and that they're self-settled created for you by you. The difference is that with an asset protection version of this trust, it includes these critical provisions called spendthrift provisions and what spendthrift provisions are is they are provisions that allow you to protect your assets from the creditors, they're the actual teeth behind it and for those to work, the trust them has to be not revocable, but it will revocable. So it's a very different type of trust, you know, just like chocolate or vanilla, both ice cream, just different types of ice cream.   Michael: Yeah…   Brian: You know, this is where the fun really starts to actually happen. There's two major school of thoughts here you can go international meaning offshore, another country jurisdiction, you know, you hear about Cook Islands, Cayman Islands, Belize, in the Bahamas, or domestically here in the US, you know, Nevada, Delaware, Wyoming, Texas, um, so you can set them up here in the United States and you know, if you don't mind, I think a great way to talk about it, just kind of talking about it through historical context, because I think if you understand the foundations of both offshore and domestic then you understand the principles of how we combine them together and why you want to   Michael: Yeah, let's do it.   Brian: Alright, cool. So again, you really have these three options, right, you can establish them offshore, you're going establish them domestically, and then we can hybrid them out like a hybrid car, take the best of both worlds put them together. So from the historical concept, the offshore trust actually came first, in 1984, when the famous Cook Islands, they created the first asset protection trust. I like and choose the Cook Islands if and when it's applicable, just because it literally offers the best home court advantage and why it's the best is because asset protection is just what these trusts in the Cook Islands were specifically drafted for and the power here is they have this wonderful word called statutory non recognition of any other jurisdictional court orders in the world, including the United States and so what this means is that if you have a judgment against you, in the United States, and you took it down to the Cook Islands, your US judgment is literally worthless, it literally has no value whatsoever. statutorily the Cook Islands they prohibited from recognizing it even from their own constitution and so if somebody wants to sue your trust, and it has a Cook Islands, you know, clause in it. So as a Cook Islands trust, they will have to start their case all over from scratch, the person who's suing you, they're going to have to prove their case beyond the reasonable doubt. This is the murder standard, the highest legal standard in the world that 99% sure standard. Not that you know, 51%, preponderance of the evidence, I'm not sure we don't know what happened. But we don't like the way they look right now. So let's just let's just give it to them. You know, you can't get a contingency fee attorney to represent you, because they're just not allowed down there. It's an ethical in the Cook Islands, just like it used to be unethical here in the United States. But then that got changed in the 60s, the claim meaning the lawsuit, you know, it's not amendable. So what this means is that it can't be changed or amended after the discovery process starts like we can do here in the United States. Like we can literally just say, okay, I'm suing you for this, dig around start discovery, then completely change what We're suing you for, because we started using as a fishing expedition. The person suing you, yeah, no, I mean, this is just like standard trial tactics is like, okay, hey, let me just flood you with discovery and like, start poking around and say, oh, hey, we didn't even know this was right here. Now I'm gonna add this to the complaint and sue you now, for this looks like a better cause of action anyways, I can't do that down there. But we can do it here all the time in the US.   Michael: So it sounds like I need to go move to the Cook Islands.   Brian: Now. Well, here and maybe not right, because you know, there's, there's cons to things, we'll get to the cons in a minute. So the person suing you, they're gonna have to front the entire court costs by the judge from New Zealand and if you lose your pay, you know, and I honestly think this is one of the worst things that we don't have here in the United States, though, like the loser doesn't need to pay the legal fees and the cost of the winner. So if you get sued for something completely bogus, I mean, a frivolous lawsuit, and you spend $200,000, defending yourself on legal fees, then the judge finally is like, this is ridiculous. I'm throwing this case out, you're still out 200,000 bucks, you know, the person who sued you, they're not going to be getting the bill for that because our legal system in the United States, they just that will discourage lawsuits and our legal system is run by trial lawyers who don't want to discourage lawsuits and there's only a one year statute of limitations. So if you go back to those four things I mentioned, right, remember, like effectiveness, cost, control, compliance, I mean, effectiveness, five out of five stars, nothing really nothing beats statutory nonrecognition. So what about the other ones, right, you know, control costs and compliance. This is kind of his kryptonite, you know, these are the drawbacks. If you're going to be purely foreign, like a purely foreign trust, you have a lot more IRS reporting, compliance and disclosure. So you have these things called IRS forms 3520 3520 A's. What this is, is a full balance sheet disclosure of everything that trust owns, and sometimes even the entire trust agreement to be disclosed and submitted to the IRS and it is expensive for this IRS forms to be done every year. Also, you're going to have factor compliance, because you're going to have a foreign bank account at that time.   And of course, we're these trusts to work, you're going to be out of control of the trust. That's why they work so good. That's why they're the creme de la crème and clients are just not comfortable with this. So while we literally have the most effective trust in the world, by far, it's not something that I generally start with, I probably only say like 1% of my clients, I will go to a purely foreign trust with which then brings us right to the second option. Okay, we're not going to be going forward and what about these domestic trust? Yeah, they came about 10 years later down the road of all places, Alaska started it out and then not to be outdone, obviously, you're gonna be like, Well, hey, we're Wyoming and Nevada and Delaware like this is what we're known for. So we're jumping on the gravy train, right and then now about 19 other states now have created some form of asset protection, self-settled trust statutes. So we're seeing as a state starting to jump on board seeing yeah, our legal system is a threat and things have to get done to protect your assets and so as to protection the United States is very is very important to understand this ballot on It's just the concepts like how you go about doing it is very important. The issue with a purely foreign under the purely domestic asset protection trust is that, you know, we live in the United States of America, we have a Constitution, Article four section one for Faith and Credit Clause. What this provides and means is that every state has to grant the full faith and credit to the judicial proceedings of every other state. What this is means what it's telling you is that, for example, Nevada can pass and has passed an asset protection statute, okay, but it cannot ignore a California or Washington or like another states court orders. So where the Cook Islands can literally just throw that California judgment in the trash. Nevada can't do that. Nevada has to respect it constitutionally and even litigate it and then you have courts that are just simply ignoring the choice of law clause. So I mean, like literally, like bait levers more dissent in re Hubber, cucumber Steelman, Dover still all great facts, all great cases, they should have one of those cases, and judges literally just use their superpower public policy, we're ignoring the you know, choice of law clause, trust is breach means loss of assets, that's just completely unacceptable and so because of the case law that we're seeing, I'm not a big fan of a purely domestic asset protection, trust or anything purely domestic without something offshore built into it. This is why I prefer the hybrid version called like, we just call it a bridge trust, but it's really just like a hybrid, hybrid trust, think of them like a hybrid cars, okay? What we're doing just combining the best of both, and then making a better product and so these trusts have been around for almost three decades. So they're not, you know, the new lady to the dance, they've been around for about 30 years now and at the end of the day, what you're doing is taking a fully registered foreign Cook Island, offshore asset protection, trust, what all that for two years of solid case law, again, so it's fully registered offshore from the day we created with the offshore trustee, they're there in standby just in case you need them and then we build a bridge back to the IRS for IRS classification. So the IRS is literally taking this foreign trust and then they're classifying it as a domestic US trust, by complying with USC Section 7701. It's called the court test control test and so because of that bridge, as long as we have our compliance in place, we stay classified domestically and what this does is that the trust is now going to be cheaper to create. So generally, a purely foreign trust is going to cost like 4550, even $60,000 plus $12,000, a year to maintain very expensive, a hybrid trust is going to be cheaper, you're generally gonna be talking about, you know, 23 to 30,000, to set up a hybrid trust, plus no IRS tax filings whatsoever, while you're domestic because it's classified as a domestic US grantor trust, so you have no more IRS tax filings, unless God forbid, we have to break that bridge and now you also get the power of the offshore trust. If and when we need it. It's in our toolbox now, just like a contractor who says like, okay, hey, I don't need to use all my tools today. But I'm going to need them possibly at some point. So now I can use them as I need them. Versus coming to me later on after the fact oh, my God, Brian, I mow somebody over with my car, like, can you help me? You know, like, I want that foreign trust? Well, no, sorry, it's after the fact I can't do it now. But if we have the hybrid, I could have engaged it. So that would be like during the State of duress, we would break the bridge, stop being an IRS compliance, you are what you are a foreign trust. Until that point, you want to be classified domestically. So that hybrid trust is very, very effective, you may control of your assets, you may take control the trust, right up until that doomsday scenario where you don't want to be in control of it anymore. You know, maintenance and compliance with the IRS. Very simple. So at that point, you've now checked off all the boxes, effectiveness, cost control and compliance check, check, check, check, check and so this is where you know, for our clients, we generally are starting with these hybrid trust.   Michael: Wow, this is wild, is super cool and so are you thinking that most folks that are in that kind of million dollars of expose net worth, this is where that starts to make sense.   Brian: That's exactly like, so our main client profile that comes in you would think they'd be like, you know, 10s of millions of dollars for us, like realistically, I would say 75% of our clients generally around that 1.2 million, exposing that. Some high risk, probably like a doctor or surgeon lawyer, or just straight real estate investors. I have some of my favorite clients, nurses, firefighters, cops who self-funded their retirement through cash flowing properties, and now they're about to retire and they realize like, I can't lose all of this now because this is literally my nest egg and my legacy. Yeah, they need to lock it down and so you generally see the average client profiles like 1.2 to 2 million of exposed net with some risk, and it makes sense at that point. Yeah, get the LLC get the limited partnership get the trust for like 30,000 dollars locked down a million plus, and then sleep well at night. That's when the investment kind of makes sense for this type of protection.   Michael: Yeah, that makes total sense and what would you say because I would imagine, after listening to this folks might go to other attorneys they work with mentioned this type of hybrid trust and they might be told now you don't need an LLC is good enough. I mean, what's the I know, we've talked about kind of a counter argument, but how does that conversation get ahead?   Brian: Most of the time, I was, say, like the one the estate planning attorney, they will know about this, because their knowledge base, you know, is just not going to be around, let alone foreign trust. I mean, there's not that many people who even know like that much detail about how a foreign trust works, let alone using the incorrect domestic asset protection trust, you know, how many times I have California residents, using the Nevada asset protection trust, and the person who set it up for them, like the lawyer has no idea like, okay, what about this case? We're still in 2012, California case that said, hey, you're a California resident, we don't recognize asset protection trust, because we don't have the statutes here. So your Nevada asset protection, trust, and sorry, it's worthless, it's not gonna it's not gonna work, you know, so unless you go to an actual specialist and say, hey, here's the case law, here's what's going to happen down the run. Most people don't have that level of education, because they're not in that world. They don't exist in in it. So I feel bad for the clients because where's the knowledge come from? You think you're going to an attorney who was specialized in this, but you're not taught this in law school, you're not taught this for the bar exam, so how you develop this level of knowledge is really just did you get into the right group of people and were you passionate about it enough to like transition your practice into it… That's why I do these talks is just to educate people and you know, just the base thing, like, why not just an LLC, they're disregarded entities for tax purposes. So they're disregarded for taxes. That means it's disregarded to you for lawsuits and liability, meaning you're pierced. If you're using them for real estate. They're not businesses, they're holding companies, which means the number one argument that will win and pierce that every time is well, Your Honor, this is an actual business. It's an extension of Michael is just a holding company. Boom, you're pierced funding issues, bad accounting systems, like there's four ways to pierce that veil right there and I don't even have to think part about it. Charging, charging order protection mean, like what state do I go set these things up in? You know, how many times I hear people like, oh, just go create a Wyoming LLC? Are you a resident of Wyoming? Is the asset in Wyoming and the answer is no to either one of those, you just tried to buy another state's jurisdiction, that you have no connection to try bringing another state's laws to like California and other state that you're not connected to, and there's no reason to, you're gonna get laughed out of court. Like, it's just you can't go by other states more beneficial laws and bring them, you know, to another state that, you know, that has no jurisdictional connection to it and anonymity is the other like, really, like, flavor of the last like, two years is like, oh, create this anonymous, Delaware or Wyoming? Trust and Ghost the lawsuits, right? Yeah, well, that's not how these that's not how it works but that's how it's being sold by, you know, law firm salesmen and promoters. Yeah, create this and get a really crazy operating agreement and then next thing, you know, like, you're never gonna have to show up in court. I'm sorry, you have a personal agent of service for these out of state law firms their sole job, like, let's say, Mike here is my, you know, personal agent of service, he's gonna get my service and he's gonna say, hey, Brian, here's your service. That's why dude, you just…   Michael: Got to show up in court…   Brian: Court now and amenities done at that point. So the only way that an amenity works is you show up the court, a judge is gonna say, Hey, you're getting sued for a million bucks. Here's your you know, asset disclosure list. Tell me everything that you own, because we didn't know what can be collected on or not, at that point, and amenity or a quote, unquote, air quotes, Secrecy is now up to you. So you're gonna decide, am I gonna lie under oath and hope to god, I don't get you know, my operating agreement will hold up and commit perjury in court, or do I just disclose it. So like, you're the weak link at that point and then if you lie and commit perjury, under oath, you're going to jail on top of losing your assets. So it makes more sense just to say, hey, create a proper asset protection plan, LLC in the state that is layered up into a management company, once you hit the net worth put in the trust, and then sleep well at night because at the end of the day, I don't care if you lose your lawsuit. I care about it for your collectible or not, you know, like you can lose the 10 $50 million case. I just if the asset protection trusts setup strong and in the right jurisdictions with a proper exit strategies, does it mean that you can be collected on and then it lets me settle a case for pennies on the dollar…   Michael: Dang this is nuts, Brian… This is like or this is earth shattering stuff. We got to have you back on to talk more about this. But I want to be very respectful of your time get you out here for people that have a similar response and you're like, holy crap, I gotta call this guy Brian, immediately. Learn more about this, reach out for your services. What's the best way for folks to get in touch get a hold of you?   Brian: Yeah, one great resources, jump on my website, www.btbegal.com , I use it more as an educational resource with a lot of case law client studies. I just want you to be educated at the end of the day like, listen this here's the case law. Like, that's what lawyers should know about, especially trial lawyers. That's why I'm a good trial lawyer. I tell stories through case law and then another great way is through my email, you know, Brian: B R A I N @btblegal.com. I do you know, free 30 minute consultation, whether we're a great fit or not, like we'll figure that out over the phone. I would just rather how people have an educated decision, and then they can like go shop around.   Michael: Love it, love it. Well, hey, man, thanks again for coming on. Really appreciate the time and we'll definitely be in touch.   Brian: Yeah, for sure. Thanks brother…   Michael: All right, everyone. That was our episode, a big thank you to Brian for coming on talking about a lot of things that we've never heard before on the show and definitely bring up some excellent counterpoints to be thinking about as always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is to get your episodes and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing…

Episode SummaryWelcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light- hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's topic: 4 Signs You're Heading for Burnout. What is burnout? What are some of the contributing factors behind burnout? How can you reduce stress and anxiety in order to avoid burnout? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Key Takeaways01:11 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic: 4 Signs You're Heading for Burnout 02:42 – Dr. Brian makes an exciting announcement about his upcoming book at https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com (https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com) 05:24 – The many signs and stages of burnout 07:34 – Four key ways to prevent burnout 10:17 – Dr. Brian stresses the importance of exercise and its many benefits 11:08 – Dr. Brian teases next week's topic, promotes his latest book and reminds listeners to Subscribe, Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap) Tweetable Quotes“A lot of times you may not even realize that you are perhaps flirting or in the throes of burnout.” (02:02) (Dr. Brian) “What is the definition of burnout? So, burnout is usually what we consider when we're just so fatigued and don't want to do anything and we're just feeling overwhelmed. And we all have times where stress can get to us.” (04:28) (Dr. Brian) “There's actually different stages of burnout. Recognizing if perhaps you're in the early part of these stages and the interventions we go through can be very helpful.” (06:11) (Dr. Brian) “Number one is exercise. It can just be anything that you enjoy doing that gives you physical activity. If you like to jog, or swim, or do weight lifting, anything that gets your body moving has been shown to reduce stress and anxiety. And coupling that with having a well-rounded diet.” (07:53) (Dr. Brian) “So, just remember those four key things: exercise, eating a well-rounded diet, having good sleep hygiene, and, number four, asking for help.” (09:58) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDr. Brian's amazing new book on social media, INFLUENCED, featuring his incredible insights and experiences along with many of your favorite influencers. Endorsed by many influencers including Rob “Gronk” Gronkowski - https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/ (https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/) DM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3lrbi018n1nnpk1/NCHS065%20-%20Does%20Eating%20Cooled%20then%20Reheated%20Rice%20Lower%20Blood%20Sugar_%20Part%20Two.pdf?dl=0 (Click here) to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode SummaryWelcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on Part Two of today's topic: Does Eating Cooled then Reheated Rice Lower Blood Sugar? What are some of the health risks associated with blood sugar spikes? What does the immune system have to do with cancer? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Key Takeaways01:07 – Dr. Brian continues his discussion on all things Blood Sugar 04:00 – The risks associated with having your blood sugar spike 06:02 – Cancer and the immune system 08:15 – Dr. Brian provides the Cap/No Cap Recap of today's episode, teases next week's topic, and reminds listeners to Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Tweetable Quotes“I'm laughing because I love to mispronounce this word. I always grew up mispronouncing it and I still do kind of on purpose because it's the way I used to pronounce it. ‘Quinoa,' but I like to call it ‘KEN-O-WAH'.”(02:28) (Dr. Brian) “So one of the main issues why high sugar - unintended, so to speak - is that it causes something called AGES, or Advanced Glycation End Products. Now, these are fairly toxic. They're caused by reactions between sugar and other types of proteins in your body and they are really high on the suspect list for causing some of these problems.”(04:48) (Dr. Brian) “I do want to make one comment about cancer. A lot of people aren't aware of this. Cancer is also regulated by the immune system.”(06:09) (Dr. Brian) “Just to recap about the rice. If you cool the rice overnight and heat it up the next day and you're concerned about your blood sugar, then that does help blunt the spike in your blood sugar.”(08:15) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDr. Brian's amazing new book on social media, INFLUENCED, featuring his incredible insights and experiences along with many of your favorite influencers. Endorsed by many influencers including Rob “Gronk” Gronkowski - https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/ (https://www.influencedsocialmedia.com/) DM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/er7l4bpf11pzj0t/NCHS063%20-%20REBROADCAST%20-%20How%20to%20Sleep%20Better%20Part%202.pdf?dl=0 (Click here) to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode SummaryWelcome to The No Cap Health Show, a podcast inspired by Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler's extremely popular TikTok channel with over 3 million followers. Every week, Dr. Brian uses a light-hearted approach and shares health trends popular on the app. Using his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher he confirms (No Cap) or debunks (Cap) the topic and shares best practices with listeners. New episodes will be released every Wednesday. In this episode, Dr. Brian continues his discussion with Part Two of How to Sleep Better. Dr. Brian breaks down the many supplements that can aid in improving sleep, including c melatonin and tryptophan. He details a number of factors that have been proven to effect sleep. Finally, Dr. Brian speaks to how our diet can impact sleep and provides tips on sleep preparation that can help lead to healthier sleep. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Key Takeaways03:29 – Dr. Brian recaps last week's episode, How to Sleep Better, Part One and introduces Part Two 05:12 – Dr. Brian discusses the impact lettuce water can have on sleep 06:21 – Dr. Brian lists supplements that can help improve sleep, including melatonin magnesium and tryptophan 09:42 – Dr. Brian provides a list of sleep techniques that can effect sleep 11:54 – Dr. Brian shares with the audience a reason not to make your bed 13:16 – Dr. Brian speaks to how dinner can help or hinder your sleep 14:22 – Dr. Brian lists a number of sleep preparation steps that can be beneficial to getting a good night's sleep 20:19 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap for today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Tweetable Quotes“Another one is tryptophan. Now, you may not be thinking tryptophan and you have any relationship, but I guarantee you probably do because tryptophan is in turkey. And there's a reason people get into a ‘food coma' at Thanksgiving, because turkey has a lot of tryptophan.”(09:02) (Dr. Brian) “So, I'm gonna tell you something that's a very sobering reason to not make your bed. Do I have your attention now? There are these little critters called dust mites and they live better when your sheets are on your bed than when they are off. And the reason is because when your bed sheets are on it locks in moisture.”(12:03) (Dr. Brian) “How can dinner help you sleep or actually even hinder your sleep? Well, studies have shown that a high carb and low fat meal can actually worsen sleep versus a low carb, high fat meal.”(13:20) (Dr. Brian) “A warm bedroom is nice and cozy, I admit. But the heat is not neat for your sleep. I like the bedroom around sixty-eight degrees, which is about twenty degrees Celsius. And studies show that people tend to sleep better when it's cooler.”(16:07) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

"Last year is when NFT started taking off and more of that aspect of things, that's the part that actually really drew me in because that to me from a technologist perspective, from a software developer perspective, that is where it connects to our world. And I can see the value in digital ownership and things like that."- Ian Landsman Watch this episode on YouTubeIan Landsman:Ian's Company: HelpspotIan on Twitter: @ianlandsmanBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today's sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 1:Brian: I'm still learning and I'm still trying to figure out what I think about all that. I do think that there seems to be an opportunity in what people are calling Web3 and like "tokenization" and...  Ian: Right.  Brian: And and it does like there are like to me, there are like glimpses of, of potential possibilities of what this stuff could mean, like, you know, in terms of like smart contracts and how something can, like, grow in value. I like to think back to like an artist, especially like a musician. But I guess this can go for any kind of art where the original creator can be paid as their art continues to be bought and sold over time, which is like fundamentally not possible with like physical paintings. Right, right, right. That seems interesting.And then I'm then I wonder how that can make you adapt to other use cases.Ian: You know, I sort of see I mean, the three main areas I'm interested in and there are lots of other edge cases and people have all kinds of things they're attempting to do. Right. But the three main ones are I guess you have like the what is the most visible aspect is like the art, right? And you know, you have the one side that loves that.You have other many people who make fun of it like you monkeys and dragons and whatever, right? Like digital art. And you have people who are very mainstream, but he's making still pretty weird art, Elon Musk naked and whatever. All kinds of stuff that he does not.Brian: Even know about. These people are probably the most famous.Ian: Right, right. Yeah. He's done he does one every day. And anyway, so it's like the pure there's the pure art aspect of like artists doing one of art. There are artists doing these collections like bored apes and things like that that people are probably heard of. And yet so what you're referencing there is and when you resell this art, the royalty a percentage of the sale goes just automatically to the.And there are some details around that, whatever. But ultimately a percentage of that goes to the artist. So that's not just like when the artist is dead, maybe it becomes worth something or like whatever. Or they're forced to keep creating stuff because that's the only way to live. Like you could create a couple of things that are huge hits and make a lot of money, you know, ongoing because people are reselling them.Quote 2:Brian: If a software startup is going to become like Web3 enabled or whatever like associated with Web3, it means that they are at some point going to offer a token like from their brand.Ian: Potentially.Brian: And users of their tool. Like the more they use it or the more they help grow the tool and its user base, they gain ownership of this token. And I guess externally the token could be bought and sold just like any other token. A Bitcoin or Etherium or Solana. Mm-hmm. And that's the idea is like you're building it's almost like like the only parallel I can think of is like a publicly-traded company. Right? Like. Right. Like, I use an Apple Computer, but I could also own Apple stock. And but I guess the idea for this...Is that you're it's more intertwined where, like, the more you use it, the more stock you gain in this equity that you gain.Ian: Right, earning it for it. And like, it. Yeah, exactly.Brian: So it's which in turn, like raises the value of that coin or that. Right?Ian: Right. So I think there's this example of like you, you know, the way it works now is you go and get investment from rich people, but you're literally limited to people who make more than $200,000 a year or $3,000 a year. We can invest in private companies essentially as like an angel or things like that or VC. And so you get a handful of those you raise some money, then you start your software business and your customers have nothing to do with any of it.They don't your first customers get none out of it other than being the first customers. Which is great. If they like your product, that's fine. But we all know that the first customers are actually super important. Like they giving you the most important feedback. They're taking the biggest risk because you're probably going to go out of business is the reality.So like they're taking the risk, putting their time and effort into participating in your software product at very early stages. So they're not, you know, compensate for any of this. They can't even buy shares in your company because you are not a publicly-traded company. Yes, with Apple, I could buy shares but I can't buy shares in your early startup.It's literally impossible. Right. And so like against the law, like you can't even offer its not offer-able. So I think that's where it's interesting because, with the coins, you do have this at least potential. I think there are not a lot of places that have realized that potentially it's still super early. But the potential idea of like both raising money for more people and then also rewarding early customers in tokens so that it's almost like growth participation.Brian:Yes, I think it's like a user activation play, marketing play for on the user side and then on the company side, it's like financing.Quote 3:Brian: What about getting back to basics of like you have to solve a problem that people actually care about? How does tokenization even help solve that problem or make it easier or, you know, aside from just giving users equity or giving them more of a stake in the early part of a company by using the product?Is there anything else like functionally that a token could potentially do, you know? Ian: Well, some yeah, there is like and so like in the horse racing game, I'm involved in. The token is going to be like how you buy and sell things in the game. There are two tokens actually, and one of them is the transactional token. So it allows things like super low-cost transactions like there's no 3% stripe involved there. Now all the in-game transactions are basically free, even though there's real money moving back and forth between them. So like that would be like one example of like in the application, there's some benefit. So yeah. Oh, I don't think in this way always has to.To me, like it's still interesting just in the like, is this a way to do equity that's better, which is where what I was saying before like I think you could just as they could just change the laws and make it so I could just issue stock to all my early customers like that could be a thing, right? Like it's not a thing.I can't actually do that. But it could be a thing if we change the laws to make it a thing and then that would be a thing. And I think that would be you know, it's not a path for everybody. Just like this Web3 stuff wouldn't be a path for everybody, but it might be a path for certain kinds of businesses to raise money.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ems4x0debxejuvc/NCHS060%20-%20Four%20Tips%20to%20Beat%20the%20Heat%20This%20Summer.pdf?dl=0 (Click here) to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode SummaryWelcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's topic: Four Tips to Beat the Heat This Summer. Can you cool yourself down by running your wrists under cold water? Does drinking cold peppermint tea do anything to cool you down? What about closing your curtains or putting a bowl of ice water in front of a fan? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://my.captivate.fm/RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap.) Key Takeaways01:11 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic: Four Tips to Beat the Heat This Summer 02:07 – Can you cool yourself down by running your wrists under cold water? 04:38 – Does drinking cold peppermint tea do anything to cool you down? 05:47 – Can closing your curtains or windows help you beat the heat? 06:29 – How effective is a fan with a bowl of ice water in front of it? 07:22 – Dr. Brian provides the Cap/No Cap Recap of today's episode, teases next week's topic, and reminds listeners to Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Tweetable Quotes“So what I would do is I would literally take with me a bucket and I would always have ice in there from the hotel with water and at the end of a race I would actually soak my hands in this icy cold water. And let me tell you, that really cooled down my body temperature.”(03:42) (Dr. Brian) “So, just remember that if you want to cool yourself down just run your hands or your wrists under cold water.”(04:11) (Dr. Brian) “The peppermint has no magical cooling abilities. It's just refreshing. But literally you can drink just plain cold water. I mean you could even drink iced coffee and it will have the same effect. It's the coldness of the beverage or the drink.”(05:19) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/detm6gfqonwfz7p/NCHS055%20-%20Cellulite%20Solutions.pdf?dl=0 (Click here) to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode SummaryWelcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light- hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's topic: Cellulite Solutions. What is cellulite? Can anything be done to prevent cellulite? What do procedures like Cool Sculpting and Vacuum Assisted Precise Tissue Release entail? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Key Takeaways01:09 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic: Cellulite Solutions 04:26 – What can you do to help prevent cellulite 05:14 – Cryolipolysis, ultrasounds and Cellfina 07:17 – Dr. Brian provides the Cap/No Cap Recap of today's episode, teases next week's topic, and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Tweetable Quotes“Cellulite is fat that has a little bit of an uneven distribution or uneven surface. Cellulite is actually caused from different formations of fat underneath the skin.” (03:24) (Dr. Brian) “I hate to use the word ‘issue' because I know some people are really concerned about it. There's nothing health-wise [wrong with cellulite]. Like nobody dies of cellulite right? On the coroner's report, you've never seen, ‘Cause of death: Cellulite.'” (03:55) (Dr. Brian) “So there's a procedure out there that's quite effective that's called ‘Cool Sculpting.' It's actually noninvasive. It uses something called cryolipolysis, which is just a fancy way of saying really really cold temperatures can break down and dissolve some fat.” (05:14) (Dr. Brian) “There's another procedure called Vacuum Assisted Precise Tissue Release where this device with little tiny blades can cut these bands of collagen and fat to help smooth things out.” (06:33) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

Jennifer is joined by chef Brian So of Spring restaurant in Marietta, Georgia. For more of Jennifer's work, visit: www.jenniferzyman.com.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cyg1q7obdlt1t6/NCHS050%20-%20Powerful%20Tea%20with%20Cinnamon%20and%20Ginger.pdf?dl=0 (Click here) to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode SummaryWelcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light- hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian is provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's topic: Powerful Tea with Cinnamon and Ginger. Does cinnamon and ginger help to boost your metabolism? Can they help with weight loss or menstrual cramps? What are ghrelin and leptin hormones and what do they do? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Key Takeaways01:18 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic: Powerful Tea with Cinnamon and Ginger 02:22 – What are the health benefits of cinnamon and ginger? 04:09 – Two keys to help with weight loss 06:19 – Leptin and Ghrelin hormones 08:24 – Other tips for helping to increase your metabolism 09:41 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap of today's episode, teases next week's topic, and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on https://ratethispodcast.com/NoCap (RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap). Tweetable Quotes“Cinnamon and ginger, will it boost your metabolism? Technically it will boost your metabolism, so that technically is Not Cap.” (02:23) (Dr. Brian) “It is Not Cap that it can help with menstrual cramps. Research does show that cinnamon and ginger can help when people are suffering from menstrual cramps.” (03:57) (Dr. Brian) “This is a good entry to talk about a childhood story that I don't think you know. My best friend grew up across the street from Arnold Schwarzenegger; it was in Santa Monica. And, when we were in school we used to go over to his house all the time and wash his motorcycle and his cars. You don't have to get big and bulky like Arnold, but you can still lift weights and not get big and still have more metabolic activity coming from muscles that are stronger and somewhat more developed.” (04:54) (Dr. Brian) “One important thing to know is that if you're not getting enough sleep, it's been shown that sleep deprivation increases that hunger hormone and makes you more hungry. That's why people eat more when they're sleep deprived and they gain weight. So, getting enough sleep is definitely underrated.” (06:19) (Dr. Brian) “There is a combination of a tea which research shows that consuming these two components, a hibiscus tea bag and a lemon verbena tea bag, very likely you will not have the same hunger for the rest of the day and you'll eat less.” (06:55) (Dr. Brian) “So, taking cinnamon and ginger can boost your metabolism a little bit. It can possibly lead to weight loss. It can help with menstrual cramps. The proven, stand-by techniques for losing weight are increasing your metabolism through exercise and getting enough sleep.” (09:46) (Dr. Brian) Resources MentionedDM Dr. Brian your questions and we will respond back with answers - https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb (https://v.cameo.com/F5MH0Hglnmb) https://www.boxerwachler.com/ (Dr. Brian's Website) https://www.tiktok.com/@brianboxerwachlermd? (Dr. Brian's TikTok) https://www.instagram.com/drboxerwachler/ (Dr. Brian's Instagram) Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See https://omnystudio.com/listener (omnystudio.com/listener) for privacy information.

Jim White is the creator of Fishnure, located in Charlotte, North Carolina. Fishnure manufactures and markets organic fertilizer including both solid fertilizer and liquid. Checkout more about Fishnure's quality products and daily updates, please checkout their website and active twitter account, as listed below! Website - https://www.fishnure.com/ Twitter - @fishnure Show Notes Agricultural Background: Beginning of Fishnure Finding Our First Customers Natural vs. Chemical Fertilizer Different Types of Products We Offer Solid vs. Liquid Fertilizer How COVID Impacted Our Business Importance of Sustainability Why Just Labeling Fertilizer As “Organic” Doesn't Mean It's Good Fishnure's Future: Heading In The Right Direction Jim's Business Advice to Those Starting A Business Full Transcription Jim: We had a pepper grower up in Minnesota who grew his entire crop with Fishnure. And then he set up a control between one of the biggest sellers, Miracle-Gro and Fishnure. So we had one batch of plants that were fed Miracle-Gro the other batch was Fishnure. Miracle-Gro got two treatments during the year, Fishnure only one. Fishnure came out with 8% production. Podcast Intro: If you're someone who refuses to go along to get along, if you question whether the status quo was good enough for you and your family. If you want to leave this world better off than you found it and you consider independence a sacred thing. You may be a prepper, a gardener, a homesteader, a survivalist, or a farmer or rancher, an environmentalist or a rugged outdoorsman. We are here to celebrate you whether you're looking to improve your maverick business or to find out more about the latest products and services available to the weekend rebel. From selling chicken eggs online, to building up your food storage or collecting handmade soap.This show is for those who choose the road less traveled the road to self-reliance for those that are living a daring adventure, life off the grid. Brian: Jim White is the creator of Fishnure, located in Charlotte, North Carolina. Fishnure manufactures and markets organic fertilizer including both solid fertilizer and liquid. Fishnure is made by composting solid fish manure is filtered to get solid manure free from unwanted materials and combined with the carbon source clay inoculants and then decomposed to form a humus compost. Jim is a serial entrepreneur who has created numerous computer software production management businesses. He also has a significant background in statistics and agriculture. Jim White, welcome to The Off-the-Grid Biz Podcast. Jim: Hey, thank you. Brian: So how did you get into Fishnure, tell us that story? Jim: Well, I created a company that monitors agricultural production. In other words, in the delta, catfish production is big and a farmer may have 100 ponds. And we developed a wireless solar power monitoring and control system that will control the environment and every pond. So that's how Fishnure came because I was interested in some of the customers were using the connection from the fish production to growing plants, which is what aquaponics is, and that's what started it. Brian: Oh, wow. So how did you find your first customers? Jim: We advertised I think it was on Craigslist. And that started then we sold a lot on our website, and then move to Amazon, which is the main seller right now. Brian: How long ago was that, when did you first start the whole process? Jim: It's been seven years. Brian: Excellent. Where are you finding most of your customers right now or via Amazon? Jim: Right. Brian: Great. Do you do any other sort of outreach or marketing to bring in? Jim: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we use Twitter. We tweet several 100 tweets a day. The website, I write a lot of articles and publish those and email marketing the whole bit.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a podcast inspired by Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler's extremely popular TikTok channel with over 3 million followers. Every week, Dr. Brian uses a light-hearted approach and shares health trends popular on the app. Using his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher he confirms (No Cap) or debunks (Cap) the topic and shares best practices with listeners. New episodes will be released every Wednesday. In this episode, Dr. Brian breaks down a video on TikTok that explores three distinct topics: teeth whitening, bruises and creativity. Dr. Brian debunks some common myths about these topics and shares a fascinating study on the influence color can have on our emotions and our creativity. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Key Takeaways: 01:18 – Dr. Brian introduces the topics of today's episode, teeth whitening, bruises and creativity boosters 03:13 – Dr. Brian provides some tips that may help to whiten teeth 06:56 – Dr. Brian debunks the myth that using toothpaste can help with bruises 08:08 – Dr. Brian provides general advice to help reduce bruising 09:35 – Dr. Brian breaks down the science of creativity 10:50 – How different colors can affect our mood and emotions in different ways 13:27 – Dr. Brian shares a fascinating study on color 16:08 – Dr. Brian teases a special guest that will be joining the next episode 16:28 – Dr. Brian encourages listeners to Rate and Review this podcast on RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Tweetable Quotes: “If people want to try this – of course consult with a dentist first before trying this – take some baking soda, put it with some water, mix it up and just use the toothbrush to brush the teeth. It can help whiten teeth; it's been shown to do that. It could take a few weeks to a few months to do it.” (03:36) (Dr. Brian) “So you might remember a little while back there were people using nail files on TikTok to help to straighten their teeth. And that was really bad because it's eroding the enamel with the nail file and people can get into the nerves and get sensitivity. I was doing some videos last year about that like ‘No, don't do that. Bad idea, bad idea.” (05:20) (Dr. Brian) “Taking some pineapple and eating it can help reduce bruising and make the bruising go away faster. But also, there's a chemical in pineapple called bromelain and bromelain is the key part of why the pineapple helps. You can get bromelain cream as well and put it directly on the skin.” (09:01) (Dr. Brian) “Science has shown that the color green actually increases creativity with people. So if you are feeling like you've run into a block, if you've hit that wall and you just can't come up with any ideas for something, maybe look at a green apple, maybe pull up a green box on your computer.” (09:54) (Dr. Brian) “Yellow is a very effective color for boosting your mood. It's bright, it's happy, it has that effect on people. And yellow even has an association with comedy.” (12:26) (Dr. Brian) Links Mentioned: Dr. Brian responds to each and every DM question or comment on his OnlyFans page–https://onlyfans.com/brianboxerwachlermd Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram   Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

About BrianI lead the Google Cloud Product and Industry Marketing team. We're focused on accelerating the growth of Google Cloud by establishing thought leadership, increasing demand and usage, enabling our sales teams and partners to tell our product stories with excellence, and helping our customers be the best advocates for us.Before joining Google, I spent over 25 years in product marketing or engineering in different forms. I started my career at Microsoft and had a very non-traditional path for 20 years. I worked in every product division except for cloud. I did marketing, product management, and engineering roles. And, early on, I was the first speech writer for Steve Ballmer and worked on Bill Gates' speeches too. My last role was building up the Microsoft Surface business from scratch and as VP of the hardware businesses. After Microsoft, I spent a year as CEO at a hardware startup called Doppler Labs, where we made a run at transforming hearing, and then two years as VP at Amazon Web Services leading product marketing, developer advocacy, and a bunch more marketing teams. I have three kids still at home, Barty, Noli, and Alder, who are all named after trees in different ways. My wife Edie and I met right at the beginning of our first year at Yale University, where I studied math, econ, and philosophy and was the captain of the Swim and Dive team my senior year. Edie has a PhD in forestry and runs a sustainability and forestry consulting firm she started, that is aptly named “Three Trees Consulting”. We love the outdoors, tennis, running, and adventures in my 1986 Volkswagen Van, which is my first and only car, that I can't bring myself to get rid of.Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/IsForAt LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brhall/ Episode 10: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/episode-10-education-is-not-ready-for-teacherless/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. Set up a meeting with a Redis expert during re:Invent, and you'll not only learn how you can become a Redis hero, but also have a chance to win some fun and exciting prizes. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Writing ad copy to fit into a 30 second slot is hard, but if anyone can do it the folks at Quali can. Just like their Torque infrastructure automation platform can deliver complex application environments anytime, anywhere, in just seconds instead of hours, days or weeks. Visit Qtorque.io today and learn how you can spin up application environments in about the same amount of time it took you to listen to this ad.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined today by a special guest that I've been, honestly, antagonizing for years now. Once upon a time, he spent 20 years at Microsoft, then he wound up leaving—as occasionally people do, I'm told—and going to AWS, where according to an incredibly ill-considered affidavit filed in a court case, he mostly focused on working on PowerPoint slides. AWS is famously not a PowerPoint company, and apparently, you can't change culture. Now, he's the VP of Product and Industry Marketing at Google Cloud. Brian Hall, thank you for joining me.Brian: Hi, Corey. It's good to be here.Corey: I hope you're thinking that after we're done with our conversation. Now, unlike most conversations that I tend to have with folks who are, honestly, VP level at large cloud companies that I enjoy needling, we're not going to talk about that today because instead, I'd rather focus on a minor disagreement we got into on Twitter—and I mean that in the truest sense of disagreement, as opposed to the loud, angry, mutual blocking, threatening to bomb people's houses, et cetera, nonsense that appears to be what substitutes for modern discourse—about, oh, a month or so ago from the time we're recording this. Specifically, we talked about, I'm in favor of job-hopping to advance people's career, and you, as we just mentioned, spent 20 years at Microsoft and take something of the opposite position. Let's talk about that. Where do you stand on the idea?Brian: I stand in the position that people should optimize for where they are going to grow the most. And frankly, the disagreement was less about job-hopping because I'm going to explain how I job-hopped at Microsoft effectively.Corey: Excellent. That is the reason I'm asking you rather than poorly stating your position and stuffing you like some sort of Christmas turkey straw-man thing.Brian: And I would argue that for many people, changing jobs is the best thing that you can do, and I'm often an advocate for changing jobs even before sometimes people think they should do it. What I mostly disagreed with you on is simply following the money on your next job. What you said is if a—and I'm going to get it somewhat wrong—but if a company is willing to pay you $40,000 more, or some percentage more, you should take that job now.Corey: Gotcha.Brian: And I don't think that's always the case, and that's what we're talking about.Corey: This is the inherent problem with Twitter is that first, I tend to write my Twitter threads extemporaneously without a whole lot of thought being put into things—kind of like I live my entire life, but that's neither here nor there—Brian: I was going to say, that comes across quite clearly.Corey: Excellent. And 280 characters lacks nuance. And I definitely want to have this discussion; this is not just a story where you and I beat heads and not come to an agreement on this. I think it's that we fundamentally do agree on the vast majority of this, I just want to make sure that we have this conversation in a way, in a forum that doesn't lend itself to basically empowering the worst aspects of my own nature. Read as, not Twitter.Brian: Great. Let's do that.Corey: So, my position is, and I was contextualizing this from someone who had reached out who was early in their career, they had spent a couple of years at AWS and they were entertaining an offer elsewhere for significantly more money. And this person, I believe I can—I believe it's okay for me to say this: she—was very concerned that, “I don't want to look like I'm job-hopping, and I don't dislike my team. My manager is great. I feel disloyal for leaving. What should I do?”Which first, I just want to say how touched I am that someone who is early in their career and not from a wildly overrepresented demographic like you and I felt a sense of safety and security in reaching out to ask me that question. I really wish more people would take that kind of initiative. It's hard to inspire, but here we are. And my take to her was, “Oh, my God. Take the money.” That was where this thread started because when I have conversations with people about those things, it becomes top of mind, and I think, “Hmm, maybe there's a one-to-many story that becomes something that is actionable and useful.”Brian: Okay, so I'm going to give two takes on this. I'll start with my career because I was in a similar position as she was, at one point in my career. My background, I lucked into a job at Microsoft as an intern in 1995, and then did another internship in '96 and then started full time on the Internet Explorer team. And about a year-and-a-half into that job, I—we had merged with the Windows '98 team and I got the opportunity to work on Bill Gates's speech for the Windows '98 launch event. And I—after that was right when Steve Ballmer became president of Microsoft and he started doing a lot more speeches and asked to have someone to help him with speeches.And Chris Capossela, who's now the CMO at Microsoft, said, “Hey, Brian. You interested in doing this for Steve?” And my first reaction was, well, even inside Microsoft, if I move, it will be disloyal. Because my manager's manager, they've given me great opportunities, they're continuing to challenge me, I'm learning a bunch, and they advised not doing it.Corey: It seems to me like you were in a—how to put this?—not to besmirch the career you have wrought with the sweat of your brow and the toil of your back, but in many ways, you were—in a lot of ways—you were in the right place at the right time, riding a rocket ship, and built opportunities internally and talked to folks there, and built the relationships that enabled you to thrive inside of a company's ecosystem. Is that directionally correct?Brian: For sure. Yet, there's also, big companies are teams of teams, and loyalty is more often with the team and the people that you work with than the 401k plan. And in this case, you know, I was getting this pressure that says, “Hey, Brian. You're going to get all these opportunities. You're doing great doing what you're doing.”And I eventually had the luck to ask the question, “Hey, if I go there and do this role”—and by the way, nobody had done it before, and so part of their argument was, “You're young, Steve's… Steve. Like, you could be a fantastic ball of flames.” And I said, “Okay, if [laugh] let's say that happens. Can I come back? Can I come back to the job I was doing before?”And they were like, “Yeah, of course. You're good at what you do.” To me, which was, “Okay, great. Then I'm gone. I might as well go try this.” And of course, when I started at Microsoft, I was 20, 21, and I thought I'd be there for two or three years and then I'd end up going back to school or somewhere else. But inside Microsoft, what kept happening as I just kept getting new opportunities to do something else that I'd learned a bunch from, and I ultimately kind of created this mentality for how I thought about next job of, “Am I going to get more opportunities if I am able to be successful in this new job?” Really focused on optionality and the ability to do work that I want to do and have more choices to do that.Corey: You are also on a I almost want to call it a meteoric trajectory. In some ways. You effectively went from—what was your first role there? It was—Brian: The lowest level of college hire you can do at Microsoft, effectively.Corey: Yeah. All the way on up to at the end of it the Corporate VP for Microsoft Devices. It seems to me that despite the fact that you spent 20 years there, you wound up having a bunch of different jobs and an entire career trajectory internal to the organization, which is, let's be clear, markedly different from some of the folks I've interviewed at various times, in my career as an employer and as a technical interviewer at a consulting company, where they'd been somewhere for 15 years, and they had one year of experience that they repeated 15 times. And it was one of the more difficult things that I encountered is that some folks did not take ownership of their career and focus on driving it forward.Brian: Yeah, that, I had the opposite experience, and that is what kept me there that long. After I would finish a job, I would say, “Okay, what do I want to learn how to do next, and what is a challenge that would be most interesting?” And initially, I had to get really lucky, honestly, to be able to get these. And I did the work, but I had to have the opportunity, and that took luck. But after I had a track record of saying, “Hey, I can jump from being a product marketer to being a speechwriter; I can do speechwriting and then go do product management; I can move from product management into engineering management.”I can do that between different businesses and product types, you build the ability to say, “Hey, I can learn that if you give me the chance.” And it, frankly, was the unique combination of experiences I had by having tried to do these other things that gave me the opportunity to have a fast trajectory within the company.Corey: I think it's also probably fair to say that Microsoft was a company that, in its dealings with you, is operating in good faith. And that is a great thing to find when you see it, but I'm cynical; I admit that. I see a lot of stories where people give and sacrifice for the good of the company, but that sacrifice is never reciprocated. And we've all heard the story of folks who will put their nose to the grindstone to ship something on time, only to be rewarded with a layoff at the end, and stories like that resonate.And my argument has always been that you can't love a company because the company can't love you back. And when you're looking at do I make a career move or do I stay, my argument is that is the best time to be self-interested.Brian: Yeah, I don't think—companies are there for the company, and certainly having a culture that supports people that wants to create opportunity, having a manager that is there truly to make you better and to give you opportunity, that all can happen, but it's within a company and you have to do the work in order to try and get into that environment. Like, I worked hard to have managers who would support my growth, would give me the bandwidth and leash early on to not be perfect at what I'm doing, and that always helped me. But you get to go pick them in a company like that, or in the industry in general, you get—just like when a manager is hiring you, you also get to understand, hey, is this a person I want to work for?But I want to come back to the main point that I wanted to make. When I changed jobs, I did it because I wanted to learn something new and I thought that would have value for me in the medium-term and long-term, versus how do I go max cash in what I'm already good at?Corey: Yes.Brian: And that's the root of what we were disagreeing with on Twitter. I have seen many people who are good at something, and then another company says, “Hey, I want you to do that same thing in a worse environment, and we'll pay you more.”Corey: Excellence is always situational. Someone who is showered in accolades at one company gets fired at a different company. And it's not because they suddenly started sucking; it's because the tools and resources that they needed to succeed were present in one environment and not the other. And that varies from person to person; when someone doesn't work out of the company, I don't have a default assumption that there's something inherently wrong with them.Of course, I look at my own career and the sheer, staggeringly high number of times I got fired, and I'm starting to think, “Huh. The only consistent factor in all of these things is me. Nah, couldn't be my problem. I just worked for terrible places, for terrible people. That's got to be the way it works.” My own peace of mind. I get it. That is how it feels sometimes and it's easy to dismiss that in different ways. I don't want to let my own bias color this too heavily.Brian: So, here are the mistakes that I've seen made: “I'm really good at something; this other company will pay me to do just that.” You move to do it, you get paid more, but you have less impact, you don't work with as strong of people, and you don't have a next step to learn more. Was that a good decision? Maybe. If you need the money now, yes, but you're a little bit trading short-term money for medium-and long-term money where you're paid for what you know; that's the best thing in this industry. We're paid for what we know, which means as you're doing a job, you can build the ability to get paid more by knowing more, by learning more, by doing things that stretch you in ways that you don't already know.Corey: In 2006, I bluffed my way through a technical interview and got a job as a Unix systems administrator for a university that was paying $65,000 a year, and I had no idea what I was going to do with all of that money. It was more money than I could imagine at that point. My previous high watermark, working for an ethically challenged company in a sales role at a target comp of 55, and I was nowhere near it. So okay, let's go somewhere else and see what happens. And after I'd been there a month or two, my boss sits me down and said, “So”—it's our annual compensation adjustment time—“Congratulations. You now make $68,000.”And it's just, “Oh, my God. This is great. Why would I ever leave?” So, I stayed there a year and I was relatively happy, insofar as I'm ever happy in a job. And then a corporate company came calling and said, “Hey, would you consider working here?”“Well, I'm happy here and I'm reasonably well compensated. Why on earth would I do that?” And the answer was, “Well, we'll pay you $90,000 if you do.” It's like, “All right. I guess I'm going to go and see what the world holds.”And six weeks later, they let me go. And then I got another job that also paid $90,000 and I stayed there for two years. And I started the process of seeing what my engagement with the work world look like. And it was a story of getting let go periodically, of continuing to claw my way up and, credit where due, in my 20s I was in crippling credit card debt because I made a bunch of poor decisions, so I biased early on for more money at almost any cost. At some point that has to stop because there's always a bigger paycheck somewhere if you're willing to go and do something else.And I'm not begrudging anyone who pursues that, but at some point, it ceases to make a difference. Getting a raise from $68,000 to $90,000 was life-changing for me. Now, getting a $30,000 raise? Sure, it'd be nice; I'm not turning my nose up at it, don't get me wrong, but it's also not something that moves the needle on my lifestyle.Brian: Yeah. And there are a lot of those dimensions. There's the lifestyle dimension, there's the learning dimension, there's the guaranteed pay dimension, there's the potential paid dimension, there is the who I get to work with, just pure enjoyment dimension, and they all matter. And people should recognize that job moves should consider all of these.And you don't have to have the same framework over time as well. I've had times where I really just wanted to bear down and figure something out. And I did one job at Microsoft for basically six years. It changed in terms of scope of things that I was marketing, and which division I was in, and then which division I was in, and then which division I was in—because Microsoft loves a good reorg—but I basically did the same job for six years at one point, and it was very conscious. I was trying to get really good at how do I manage a team system at scale. And I didn't want to leave that until I had figured that out. I look back and I think that's one of the best career decisions I ever made, but it was for reasons that would have been really hard to explain to a lot of people.Corey: Let's also be very clear here that you and I are well-off white dudes in tech. Our failure mode is pretty much a board seat and a book deal. In fact, if—Brian: [laugh].Corey: —I'm not mistaken, you are on the board of something relatively recently. What was that?Brian: United Way of King County. It's a wonderful nonprofit in the Seattle area.Corey: Excellent. And I look forward to reading your book, whenever that winds up dropping. I'm sure it'll be only the very spiciest of takes. For folks who are earlier in their career and who also don't have the winds of privilege at their backs the way that you and I do, this also presents radically differently. And I've spoken to a number of folks who are not wildly over-represented about this topic, in the wake of that Twitter explosion.And what I heard was interesting in that having a manager who has your back counts for an awful lot and is something that is going to absolutely hold you to a particular company, even when it might make sense on paper for you to leave. And I think that there's something strong there. My counterargument is okay, so you turn down the offer, a month goes past and your manager gives notice because they're going to go somewhere else. What then? It's one of those things where you owe your employer a duty of confidentiality, you owe them a responsibility to do your best work, to conduct yourself in an ethical manner, but I don't believe you owe them loyalty in the sense of advancing their interests ahead of what's best for you and your career arc.And what's right for any given person is, of course, a nuanced and challenging thing. For some folks, yeah, going out somewhere else for more money doesn't really change anything and is not what they should optimize for. For other folks, it's everything. And I don't think either of those takes is necessarily wrong. I think it comes down to it depends on who you are, and what your situation is, and what's right for you.Brian: Yeah. I totally agree. For early in career, in particular, I have been a part of—I grew up in the early versions of the campus hiring program at Microsoft, and then hired 500-plus, probably, people into my teams who were from that.Corey: You also do the same thing at AWS if I'm not mistaken. You launched their first college hiring program that I recall seeing, or at least that's what scuttlebutt has it.Brian: Yes. You're well-connected, Corey. We started something called the Product Marketing Leadership Development Program when I was in AWS marketing. And then one year, we hired 20 people out of college into my organization. And it was not easy to do because it meant using, quote-unquote, “Tenured headcount” in order to do it. There wasn't some special dispensation because they were less paid or anything, and in a world where headcount is a unit of work, effectively.And then I'm at Google now, in the Google Cloud division, and we have a wonderful program that I think is really well done, called the Associate Product Marketing Manager Program, APMM. And what I'd say is for the people early in career, if you get the opportunity to have a manager who's super supportive, in a system that is built to try and grow you, it's a wonderful opportunity. And by ‘system built to grow you,' it really is, do you have the support to get taught what you need to get taught on the job? Are you getting new opportunities to learn new things and do new things at a rapid clip? Are you shipping things into the market such that you can see the response and learn from that response, versus just getting people's internal opinions, and then are people stretching roles in order to make them amenable for someone early in career?And if you're in a system that gives you that opportunity—like let's take your example earlier. A person who has a manager who's greatly supportive of them and they feel like they're learning a lot, that manager leaves, if that system is right, there's another manager, or there's an opportunity to put your hand up and say, “Hey, I think I need a new place,” and that will be supported.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking, databases, observability, management, and security. 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Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: I have a history of mostly working in small companies, to the point where I consider a big company to be one that has more than 200 employees, so, the idea of radically transitioning and changing teams has never really been much on the table as I look at my career trajectory and my career arc. I have seen that I've gotten significant 30% raises by changing jobs. I am hard-pressed to identify almost anyone who has gotten that kind of raise in a single year by remaining at a company.Brian: One hundred percent. Like, I know of people who have, but it—Corey: It happens, but it's—Brian: —is very rare.Corey: —it's very rare.Brian: It's, it's, it's almost the, the, um, the example that proves the point. I getting that totally wrong. But yes, it's very rare, but it does happen. And I think if you get that far out of whack, yes. You should… you should go reset, especially if the other attributes are fine and you don't feel like you're just going to get mercenary pay.What I always try and advise people is, in the bigger companies, you want to be a good deal. You don't want to be a great deal or a bad deal. Where a great deal is you're getting significantly underpaid, a bad deal is, “Uh oh. We hired this person to [laugh] senior,” or, “We promoted them too early,” because then the system is not there to help you, honestly, in the grand scheme of things. A good deal means, “Hey, I feel like I'm getting better work from this person for what we are giving them than what the next clear alternative would be. Let's support them and help them grow.” Because at some level, part of your compensation is getting your company to create opportunities for you to grow. And part of the reason people go to a manager is they know they'll give them that compensation.Corey: I am learning this the interesting way, as we wind up hiring and building out our, currently, nine-person company. It's challenging for us to build those opportunities while bootstrapped, but it is incumbent upon us, you're right. That is a role of management is how do you identify growth opportunities for people, ideally, while remaining at the company, but sometimes that means that helping them land somewhere else is the right path for their next growth step.Brian: Well, that brings up a word for managers. What you pay your employees—and I'm talking big company here, not people like yourself, Corey, where you have to decide whether you reinvesting money or putting in an individual.Corey: Oh, yes—Brian: But at big companies—Corey: —a lot of things that apply when you own a company are radically departed from—Brian: Totally.Corey: —what is—Brian: Totally.Corey: —common guidance.Brian: Totally. At a big company, managers, you get zero credit for how much your employees get paid, what their raise is, whether they get promoted or not in the grand scheme of things. That is the company running their system. Yes, you helped and the like, but it's—like, when people tell me, “Hey, Brian, thank you for supporting my promotion.” My answer is always, “Thank you for having earned it. It's my job to go get credit where credit is due.” And that's not a big part of my job, and I honestly believe that.Where you do get credit with people, where you do show that you're a good manager is when you have the conversations with them that are harder for other people to have, but actually make them better; when you encourage them in the right way so that they grow faster; when you treat them fairly as a human being, and mostly when you do the thing that seems like it's against your own interest.Corey: That resonates. The moments of my career as a manager that I'm proud of stuff are the ones that I would call borderline subversive: telling a candidate to take the competing offer because they're going to have a better time somewhere else is one of those. But my philosophy ties back to the idea of job-hopping, where I'm going to know these people for longer than either of us are going to remain in our current role, on some level. I am curious what your approach is, given that you are now at the, I guess, other end for folks who are just starting out. How do you go about getting people into Cloud marketing? And, on some level, wouldn't you consider that being a form of abuse?Brian: [laugh]. It depends on whether they get to work with you or not, Corey.Corey: There is that.Brian: I won't tell you which one's abuse or not. So first, getting people into cloud marketing is getting people who do not have deeply technical backgrounds in most cases, oftentimes fantastic—people who are fantastic at understanding other people and communicating really well, and it gives them an opportunity to be in tech in one of the fastest-growing, fastest-changing spaces in the world. And so to go to a psych major, a marketing major, an American studies major, a history major, who can understand complex things and then communicate really well, and say, “Hey, I have an opportunity for you to join the fastest growing space in technology,” is often compelling.But their question kind of is, “Hey, will I be able to do it?” And the answer has to be, “Hey, we have a program that helps you learn, and we have a set of managers who know how to teach, and we create opportunities for you to learn on the job, and we're invested in you for more than a short period of time.” With that case, I've been able to hire and grow and work with, in some cases, people for over 15 years now that I worked with at Microsoft. I'm still in touch with many of the people from the Product Marketing Leadership Development Program at AWS. And we have a fantastic set of APMMs at Google, and it creates a wonderful opportunity for them.Increasingly, we're also seeing that it is one of the best ways to find people from many backgrounds. We don't just show up at the big CompSci schools. We're getting some wonderful, wonderful people from all the states in the nation, from the historically black colleges and universities, from majors that tend to represent very different groups than the traditional tech audiences. And so it's been a great source of broadening our talent pool, too.Corey: There's a lot to be said for having people who've been down this path and seeing the failure modes, reaching out to make so that the next generation—for lack of a better term—has an easier time than we did. The term I've heard for the concept is ‘send the elevator back down,' which is important. I think it's—otherwise we wind up with a whole industry that looks an awful lot like it did 20 years ago, and that's not ideal for anyone. The paths that you and I walked are closed, so sitting here telling people they should do what we did has very strong, ‘Okay, Boomer' energy to it.Brian: [laugh].Corey: There are different paths, and the world and industry are changing radically.Brian: Absolutely. And my—like, the biggest thing that I'd say here is—and again, just coming back to the one thing we disagreed on—look at the bigger picture and own your career. I would never say that isn't the case, but the bigger picture means not just what you're getting paid tomorrow, but are you learning more? What new options is it creating for you? And when I speak options, I mean, will you have more jobs that you can do that excite you after you do that job? And those things matter in addition to the pay.Corey: I would agree with that. Money is not everything, but it's also not nothing.Brian: Absolutely.Corey: I will say though you spent 20 years at Microsoft. I have no doubt that you are incredibly adept at managing your career, at managing corporate politics, at advancing your career and your objectives and your goals and your aspirations within Microsoft, but how does that translate to companies that have radically different corporate cultures? We see this all the time with founders who are ex-Google or ex-Microsoft, and suddenly it turns out that the things that empower them to thrive in the large corporate environment doesn't really work when you're a five-person startup, and you don't have an entire team devoted to that one thing that needs to get done.Brian: So, after Microsoft, I went to a company called Doppler Labs for a year. It was a pretty well-funded startup that made smart earbuds—this was before AirPods had even come out—and I was really nervous about the going from big company to startup thing, and I actually found that move pretty easy. I've always been kind of a hands-on, do-it-yourself, get down in the details manager, and that's served me well. And so getting into a startup and saying, “Hey, I get to just do stuff,” was almost more fun. And so after that—we ended up folding, but it was a wonderful ride; that's a much longer conversation—when I got to Amazon and I was in AWS—and by the way, the one division I never worked at Microsoft was Azure or its predecessor server and tools—and so part of the allure of AWS was not only was it another trillion-dollar company in my backwater hometown, but it was also cloud computing, was the space that I didn't know well.And they knew that I knew the discipline of product marketing and a bunch of other things quite well, and so I got that opportunity. But I did realize about four months in, “Oh, crap. Part of the reason that I was really successful at Microsoft is I knew how everything worked.” I knew where things have been tried and failed, I knew who to go ask about how to do things, and I knew none of that at Amazon. And it is a—a lot of what allows you to move fast, make good decisions, and frankly, be politically accepted, is understanding all that context that nobody can just tell you. So, I will say there is a cost in terms of your productivity and what you're able to get done when you move from a place that you're good at to a place that you're not good at yet.Corey: Way back in episode 10 of this podcast—as we get suspiciously close to 300 as best I can tell—I had Lynn Langit get on as a guest. And she was in the Microsoft MVP program, the AWS Hero program, and the Google Expert program. All three at once—Brian: Lynn is fantastic.Corey: It really is.Brian: Lynn is fantastic.Corey: I can only assume that you listened to that podcast and decided, huh, all three, huh? I can beat that. And decided that—Brian: [laugh].Corey: —instead of being in the volunteer to do work for enormous multinational companies group, you said, “No, no, no. I'm going to be a VP in all three of those.” And here we are. Now that you are at Google, you have checked all three boxes. What is the next mountain to climb for you?Brian: I have no clue. I have no clue. And honestly—again, I don't know how much of this is privilege versus by being forward-looking. I've honestly never known where the heck I was going to go in my career. I've just said, “Hey, let's have a journey, and let's optimize for doing something you want to do that is going to create more opportunities for you to do something you want to do.”And so even when I left Microsoft, I was in a great position. I ran the Surface business, and HoloLens, and a whole bunch of other stuff that was really fun, but I also woke up one day and realized, “Oh, my gosh. I've been at Microsoft for 20 years. If I stay here for the next job, I'm earning the right to get another job at Microsoft, more so than anything else, and there's a big world out there that I want to explore a bit.” And so I did the startup; it was fun, I then thought I'd do another startup, but I didn't want to commute to San Francisco, which I had done.And then I found most of the really, really interesting startups in Seattle were cloud-related and I had this opportunity to learn about cloud from, arguably, one of the best with AWS. And then when I left AWS, I left not knowing what I was going to do, and I kind of thought, “Okay, now I'm going to do another cloud-oriented startup.” And Google came, and I realized I had this opportunity to learn from another company. But I don't know what's next. And what I'm going to do is try and do this job as best I can, get it to the point where I feel like I've done a job, and then I'll look at what excites me looking forward.Corey: And we will, of course, hold on to this so we can use it for your performance review, whenever that day comes.Brian: [laugh].Corey: I want to thank you for taking so much time to speak with me today. If people care more about what you have to say, perhaps you're hiring, et cetera, et cetera, where can they find you?Brian: Twitter, IsForAt: I-S-F-O-R-A-T. I'm certainly on Twitter. And if you want to connect professionally, I'm happy to do that on LinkedIn.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to those things in the [show notes 00:36:03]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it. I know you have a busy week of, presumably, attempting to give terrible names to various cloud services.Brian: Thank you, Corey. Appreciate you having me.Corey: Indeed. Brian Hall, VP of Product and Industry Marketing at Google Cloud. I am Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment in the form of a PowerPoint deck.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's topic: What Your Eye Color Means. Does eye color correlate to vision? Does eye color correlate to reaction time? What eye color and attractiveness? Can your eye color impact your health or contribute to health risks? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Episode Sponsor Tafah Oil - https://tafahoil.com/ Key Takeaways 01:18 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic, What Your Eye Color Means 03:07 – Eye color and vision? 04:26 – Eye color and reaction time 05:30 – A deeper dive into eye color 07:09 – Eye color and attractiveness 10:00 – How eye color can impact your health 13:34 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap of today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap.   Tweetable Quotes “This is something that I observe a lot out there is there are websites that will be reporting information but they will be reporting false information. And then they keep perpetuating this because someone else writes an article about it and they look at that website, accept it as fact. And then there's another article on another website and it just keeps multiplying. Unfortunately, Brightside has fallen prey to the misinformation that's going on out there.” (03:44) (Dr. Brian) “Studies back up that darker eyes – brown-colored eyes for example – people tend to have better reaction times than people with blue eyes.” (04:46) (Dr. Brian) “So, if you have blue eyes, great. If you have brown eyes, great. If you have any other color eyes, great. But just know that your color eye does not make you any more or less attractive.” (07:09) (Dr. Brian) “People who have blue or green or grey colored eyes have an increased risk of getting melanoma. Also, people with blue eyes and light skin have an increased risk of getting Type One Diabetes.” (10:07) (Dr. Brian) “People with brown eyes have less risk of losing their hearing.” (10:39) (Dr. Brian) “If you ever notice that you ever develop a little whitish or yellow ring around the edge of your pupil, that is correlated with increased cholesterol. So that's a good reason to ask your doctor if you start to notice that in yourself or someone else.” (14:22) (Dr. Brian) Links Mentioned Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram   Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's TikTok video which poses questions centered on Creatine, working out and BLANK. What is Creatine? How does it impact your muscles? What are the potential side effects of Creatine? Is Creatine safe for teenagers? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Key Takeaways 01:05 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic, Is Creatine Safe for Teens? 02:30 – What is Creatine? 04:50 – What does Creatine do to your muscles? 05:57 – Creatine in adults 09:30 – An interesting story about Popeye and spinach 12:02 – The best way to use Creatine 13:06 – Creatine in teens 15:02 – Side effects of Creatine 18:17 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap of today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap.   Tweetable Quotes “Creatine is a substance that is naturally occurring in muscles. So, when you're doing intense exercise for example, you're lifting weights or doing sprints, it's Creatine that is providing energy to your muscles.” (02:46) (Dr. Brian) “What a lot of people don't realize is Creatine is also in your brain. So, Creatine is good for brain health.” (03:43) (Dr. Brian) “Creatine also – and this may be of real interest to you – can increase hormones, specifically growth hormone.” (05:39) (Dr. Brian) “So it's pretty clear, I think we can establish, that Creatine does amazing things for muscles, not only in strength but also in their growth and bulking too.” (09:18) (Dr. Brian) “Let's talk about side effects. There is no evidence that Creatine harms the liver or harms the kidneys in healthy people who take normal healthy doses.” (15:01) (Dr. Brian) “If you are losing your hair and you're taking Creatine, it may not be a bad idea to talk to your doctor and ask to get a simple blood test to see what your DHT level is. DHT stands for Dihydrotestosterone.” (17:41) (Dr. Brian) Links Mentioned Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram   Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Joy Hiler - Epicure Leader Think you're ready for Joy Hiler? No...you're not. But what the heck, it's time to buckle up for a fun conversation with one of the more passionate, enthusiastic people we've had on this show! And wouldn't you know it, she done went and added an opportunity for us all to help a good cause for the area. Hit play, and let's get started down that dusty trail for another adventure to hear Joy talk about how tasty yet healthy meals from Epicure can help our local community raise money for a Mobile Spay and Neuter Clinic, and more! :) Support Joy, her friend Candy Morasch and others raise money for a county Mobile Spay and Neuter Clinic by reaching out at the contact information below! Contact Joy and pickup an Epic Life Collection today – JoyHiler.Epicure.com Or Call - 541-659-1125 Show Notes Epicure Fundraiser for a Local Spay & Neuter Clinic for Josephine County Why We Moved to Josephine County A Ground Floor Opportunity Beyond Pot Lady: What Led Me Into the Self-Employed / Direct Sales Line of Work Lifetime Cookware | Arbonne | Epicure Amazing! Getting to Know Epicure's Quality Food Line Holy Bubbly Cauldron of Extraordinary Cheese Dip! The Epic Life Collection – It's All About Fresh Virtual vs In Home Meetups: How COVID-19 Has Effected Direct Sales Companies No Risk It, No Biscuit: Swinging for Global Director in the Next 12-months I'm a Helpaholic Believe in Your Dreams – The Stories of the Founders of Dutch Bros, Epicure and Arbonne Transcription Joy: Let's be a success story together. That's our inspiration for our family is Travis and Dane because I mean, they had a dream and they didn't let anything stop them. Walt Disney, same thing. Colonel Sanders, same thing. Babe Ruth held the world record for home runs. And what people don't know about Babe Ruth, and he probably still holds the world record for strikeouts because he swung and everything that came down the plate. That's what I do. I swing and everything. You know, what's the worst that could happen? Intro: There's a place in Southern Oregon, filled with gorgeous natural beauty, friendly yet independent people and a mild, comfortable climate. That place is called Grants Pass. These are the stories of the people that live and work Josephine County. These are the movers and shakers that make this place of the best. This is Grants Pass VIP. Brian: Joy Hiler has been with Epicure for two months is partnering with Once Upon a Horse to fundraise for a mobile spay and neuter clinic because they believe in helping with the pet population. Joy Hiler, welcome to Grants Pass VIP. Joy: Thank you. Brian: So why don't you let us know a little bit about who you are and how people might know you. Joy: People might know me because I've been in the community between scouting. We raised our children here we have a bunch of kids here that went through North Valley High School, and I've been a member of the Chamber of Commerce for about 21 years. I sold cookware here in the valley, and I've sold Arbonne here in the valley for 21 years and recently I came across this Epicure. Epicure has become the mainstay for me in passion. I'm so passionate about sharing Epicure with everybody. So my girlfriend Candy, she's sells Arbonne, we've known each other for years, and our friend Audrey, we are talking to Audrey about it too. Epicure has a fundraising program and I was so brand new to Epicure and Audrey is just a couple of weeks in further than me. So Candy said, there's a fundraiser. And we said yeah. So Audrey and Candy and I are partnering and doing this fundraiser and we're dragging other people in with us because we cannot do it by ourselves. The fundraiser is through Epicure. They have boxes pre-made little boxes of it's like a meal plan for a week. And so you get six pouches, five meal pouches, and in the dessert pouch.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian provides his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's TikTok video which poses questions centered on how to lose weight. Can watching a scary movie or eating hot peppers really help you burn calories? What foods can help to curb hunger? How does sleep impact weight loss? Find out in today's episode. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Episode Sponsor RevitalVision - https://www.revitalvision.com/ Key Takeaways 01:35 – Dr. Brian opens the show by thanking today's sponsor, RevitalVision 03:01 – Dr. Brian introduces today's topic, How to Lose Weight 04:59 – How does weight loss even occur and what's caloric deficit? 08:01 – Does age impact weight gain? 10:17 – A couple of fun ways to lose some extra calories 11:50 – Getting enough sleep 13:28 – The antidote for feeling hungry 14:55 – How Kimchi (Korean Fermented Spicy Cabbage) and ginger can impact weight loss? 16:55 – Can hearts of palm and chia seeds help curb hunger? 18:06 – Dr. Brian shares his experience with both Veganism and Pescetarianism 21:00 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap of today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap.   Tweetable Quotes “Eating small frequent meals while it sounds like it could be helpful for weight loss, studies have shown that it's actually no different than gorging one's self.” (04:11) (Dr. Brian) “So in my early thirties I had been eating pretty much the same volume of food that I had all through my twenties. And unbeknownst to me, I can't believe this, my body didn't even let me know. I didn't even get an email, text, DM, nothing. My metabolism started slowing down.” (08:22) (Dr. Brian) “If you don't get enough sleep, leptin is reduced but ghrelin is increased. So now you're going to have this sense that you want to eat more.” (13:01) (Dr. Brian) “Ginger, in fact, has been shown to help people lose weight.” (16:18) (Dr. Brian) “Exercise helps your body burn more calories, especially adding a weight lifting regiment to your exercise routine. And don't forget to look at the labels just to be aware of the amount of calories that you're putting in.” (21:17) (Dr. Brian) Links Mentioned Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram   Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Results Coaching Model with Brian Lovegrove Brian Lovegrove has been on his journey of personal growth and professional development since the age of 17. Inspired by Tony Robbins, he has created not only a catalyst but a unique approach and process to helping others, like you, achieve their goals. He believes in providing & building upon the knowledge most coaches provide by practicing these lessons and building a HABIT! Using his "5 Keys of Success" in his coaching, he is a firm believer that if these keys are used, failure is all but eliminated. In this episode, we learn about all the tactics Brian uses and has honed over the years of being a coach and we did into a few of these methods during our conversation. As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Brian Lovegrove Leadership Developer and Results Coach Website: https://brianlovegrovecoaching.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brianslovegrove LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlovegrove/ Live Masterclass: https://www.becomeunstoppable.info 5 Keys to Success Podcast: https://5-keys-of-success.simplecast.com/ Unleash Your Fear eBook: https://www.unleashyourfear.com/freebook Email: lovegrove@lovegroveltd.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hi Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm looking forward to having you on so many things I have to ask you, because you hit a core thing here with training, personal development courses, all of these things that I read about. And it's going to be interesting to find out your answers to these burning questions I asked. Brian: All right, Joe, I'm looking forward to it. Let's get rocking and rolling here. Joe: Awesome. OK, so you have to bear with me, because I literally do this with every single person on my podcast, is that I think it's important for my audience, who I believe is mostly entrepreneurs, whether they're currently doing their thing or they want to do their thing or they're struggling, doing their thing or whatever it might be. I think it's important for them to know the back story of the person that is on, because it's important to understand the development of where you came from and how you got to where you are today. And I think a lot of those things that you talk about actually people listening, going, oh, yeah, I've been there. I did that. I remember that. So I always leave this open to saying you can go back as far as you want, because if something in elementary school created who you are today, I want the audience to know about it so you can start wherever you want. Brian: Well, people ask me how I got introduced to personal development in the first place, and I actually go back to junior high. My dad was a commercial real estate broker and I grew up in Montana. And any time we would leave town, we would go on a long trip. And so he would pull out these tapes from work. And this was, of course, back before the iPods. The noise canceling headphones in that great, wonderful device that many of us grew up with, the Sony Walkman, Joe: Near Brian: Whatever Joe: And dear to my Brian: He Joe: Heart. Brian: Put into that. Yes. Yes. And so I got stuck listening to whatever was in the tape deck. And so I got introduced to guys like Earl Nightingale, Jim Roan and my favorite Zig Ziglar. And listening to those guys, Dennis Wailea, on and on and on and on, they taught me what it was to be an entrepreneur. And I remember Ziggs saying, treat every job as if you were the owner of the business and those HAQQ series that I listened to through junior high and high school shaped me in my choices in college. I actually got a degree in professional sales because of a I was originally going for a management degree my first year. My sister was two years ahead of me and she told me after my freshman year and says, you know what, Brian, you might want to consider changing majors because the people that I know that are graduating with management degrees are struggling to find jobs. And I went back and that that prompted me to ask a really good deep question at all. I don't know, 18. I asked myself, what career, what major, what level of information do I need to get while you're at college that would regardless of what happens to the industry, because I knew, you know, it's going to be out here in the marketplace for over 50 years. What degree do I need to go get that will? Regardless of what's going to happen, the ups and downs of the industry, whether we end up in another recession, we end up in another depression, that I would always have an opportunity to have a job if I wanted one. Brian: And that always brought me back to the sales aspect that Zig always mentioned, because, again, he did a lot of his sales around the Depression area and that that aspect of life where it's like how do you survive? How do you keep going in those areas? And it's really the salespeople that make the world go round. And so that's what led me to a sales degree. The other decision that I made when I was 17 was I got introduced to a guy named Tony Robbins and I bought his first tape series. Imagine a freshman in college spending probably a month of his earnings on a tape series. And I bought Tony's unlimited power. I still have the tapes are used today, actually gone and bought a second set because I wore out one of those tapes so that because I listened to it so much and I followed Tony ever since, I actually helped promote and put on his seminars for one of his franchises. And along the way, I've always been doing personal development, personal growth, and, you know, a lot I loved it. I just ate it up. But one of the big challenges that I ran into, I turned 40. Brian: It was like, why am I not far enough along? I've been doing this for 20 years. Why am I just here? Because at the time I was struggling to pay the bills. I was struggling to get by. My wife was working. We had two small kids. And I thought by the time I turned 40, I would have been much farther along by now. And so in this process, I realized it wasn't until much later that learning is not enough to make lasting change. I was actively learning. I was seeking the puzzle pieces, the pieces of information that was missing in my life. And I figured once I learned that then life would be easy and I'd be making all this money. But that never happened because I never did. The one thing that I learned all the way back in the beginning from XG is you have to do it until you get good enough at it, till it becomes your new normal. And only then, once you've applied and implement those strategies in your life, will they actually work for you. And you've got to do it long enough to get good enough at it and then continue to stick with it to where you can actually allow the compounding effect to, you know, you slowly creep and then you kind of turn that corner and it goes straight up. And it took me 50 years to hit that. Joe: So I'm going to go back real quick because I want to know what triggered you to buy that Tony Robbins course. You know, I know you were listening to this stuff in the car with your father on the Walkman or whatever else you were doing it. I mean, a kid at 17 doesn't do that. So what triggered it? Brian: Well, I had read the book, his book had come out and I had read the book and I really loved he had such a different style and he was talking about different things and he was talking about the things in the mind and he was talking about he and the different aspects there. And a lot of that was like, oh, my gosh, this stuff makes so much sense. And I was applying some of those strategies and I was seeing specific results. And I was like, and that's really what made me buy in. In fact, that's probably one of the few programs that I really started implementing strategy on. One of the big strategies you talked about was marketing Meeri, and it was one that I specifically used as I got into my initial first jobs and sales career. But I used on a consistent basis to help me actually get as far as long as I did. Joe: Ok, I'm still going to ask the question, because I'm not sure if you answered it yet. Why would a 17 year old buy the book like 17 year olds don't don't get into this stuff. So and I think it's important to figure out what triggered it for you. Brian: Well, again, I think it has to do with that was the next step, I the company that was putting those out was Nightingale Conant Joe: Yeah. Brian: And my dad would get those and I probably was home. I don't remember where I was when I got it. I might have gone home for Thanksgiving or Christmas. And I grabbed the magazine I love looking at because again, I've been doing this for a number of years now. And I was like, what? What's the new stuff they got? You know, Wayne Dyer was there and you know, you know who who are who's the new people? And there was this new one from this guy named Tony Robbins. And I don't know, I guess it just resonated with me. And I think it was seventy five bucks. And it was like and to be honest with you, I really can't say what prompted me to go. I want that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But I think it was more of the sales pitch in the description of what it promised me. Joe: Got it. Brian: More than anything, that's what I would say it was based upon the results that were promised, based upon the description of the tape series. Joe: Ok, so you've been around that sort of thing for a long time, right? And if correct me if I'm wrong at any point, because I want to make sure this is super clear to the listeners, is that from what I get of what we're going to go still back, I still have other stuff to do, but I want to kind of set the stage of your expertise or what you believe is, is how you can help people. As you said, you can buy all the courses and attend all the conferences and do all of this stuff. You've said it here. You set it on your website. The enthusiasm kind of goes away when life gets in the way. Right. It's basically that simple. You come back from the high of of being at a conference or are listening to something and then life literally just gets in the way and you don't get the things done that you promised yourself that you would. So my understanding is that you are basically this coach that is going to keep you on track. Whether life gets in the way or not, you're basically going to be this person that is going to bring people along through all of this and keep them accountable to what they promise themselves that they would do and make sure that they do all of the things that are needed without shelving anything because life got in the way. Is that fair? Brian: Right, it is because, again, you know, Tony is great if you've ever been to one of his big events, you P.W. he he can talk nine thousand people into walking across twelve hundred degree recalls in a day. Joe: Yeah. Brian: By the end of day one, he's got you walking across Coles. But again, how do you can't maintain that energy and that excitement and the momentum of that event for weeks, months, years to get to where you want to go? And Tony has admitted that this is an area that he struggles with, is how do I get people to keep going? Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Which is one of the reasons why he has his coaching program that you can go and pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a coach for a year, and it's one of the reasons why he actually created the pyramids, Madonna's training group, to train people like me to be coaches that help people implement his strategies. And that's really what it comes down to, is how do you take the strategies that, you know, you need to be doing and implement them? One of the biggest challenges in society today is we don't teach people discipline for the most part. There's a few places that that happens. But outside of that, it's not encouraged. In fact, it's almost especially in today's society, you're not responsible, you know, being responsible for yourself, being accountable. That goes out the window. And yet that's how you are going to be successful. That's how you're going to get to where you want to go. Unfortunately, society is teaching people to be cheap and to live in mediocrity. That is not how you're going to get to where you want to go, because I'm assuming that most people here are entrepreneurs. Joe: Mm Brian: They're Joe: Hmm. Brian: Entrepreneurs for a reason because they are sick and tired of working for somebody else's dreams. And so they want to pursue their own dreams or they think they can do it better. And so they're out there trying to do it on their own. But there's a myth that goes with that is the fact that they have to do it on their own, they have to try to figure it out all by themselves. And some of my best clients are the people that have gone to school to learn how to do what they want to do, a chiropractor or a massage therapist, the tradesperson, they know how to either pound nails Turner Ranch, adjust somebody's back, but they don't necessarily know how to do this thing called run a business. And so there's certain aspects that come into play because my my ideal market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional who's out there wanting to make a difference in their world, in their communities and their lives to make a bigger impact. But they're struggling to do that because they're trying to deal with all of the distractions and all the stuff that's coming at us. And it's like, how do I get a hold of that? How do I how do I focus on those things that truly matter that are going to move the needle for me and my business? And that's really where I come alongside them. Brian: And I say that specifically because I can't take the journey for you, but I'm happy to take the journey with you. And see, that's where the big challenge is, is a lot of people feel like they go to the seminar, which is, OK, here's how you go climb a mountain. Here's the equipment you're going to need and what happens to the trainer. They get all loaded up. They load them up and they say, go have fun. And they go walking down the path. And the river that they were told was a small creek is now this raging river, the bridge that they were supposed to be able to go across was washed out. And it's not like, what the heck am I supposed to do now? They weren't prepared for what they're going to experience or they didn't get enough information. That's one of the things that I always felt in the training classes and seminars I went to. I always felt like there was a piece of information missing. And there's only so much that somebody can teach you. You actually have to go experience it for yourself in order to develop those nuances that are really going to make a difference for you. Joe: Yeah, and I think that there are very, very, very few people in the world that can and you hit it on the head, the discipline that they will actually take, what they've learned, whether it's in a chorus, it's at a seminar or whatever, and actually implement it and be accountable to themselves. I think that's a really, really small pool of people. And so Brian: It is. Joe: Because the Olympics just happened, if we even made an analogy of like you went to class to become a gymnast and you said in a week long seminar to learn all of the different moves and tricks and flips and things, and then you just don't go and show up and start doing that. You have a coach that's watching you Brian: Right. Joe: And and helping you understand all of those things and the mechanics of it. So to me, that's what you're that's really where you help, is that you are there to, like I said earlier, to to to to push them, keep them on track, assist them with when they Brian: The. Joe: Hit roadblocks. You're by their side throughout the whole process. Right. Brian: Right, and I think so many times we have this misunderstanding because we've been taught that learning is going and sitting in class. And that's not necessarily true, but unfortunately, the self development industry has taken this model of let's bring them in, sit them down, overwhelm them with information, make them feel like they're drinking from a firehose so they feel like we've given them a tremendous amount of value and then send them on their way. And so the more people we can pack into that room, the better we make more money that way. Yeah, we actually end up doing a disservice to the customer, to the client, because at the end there is no support. And so how do you make sure somebody has what they need in order to actually achieve the results they want? And that is challenging along the way. And we've created several ways for people to do that because, again, money gets in the way. I mean, if you have enough money, you can find somebody that's going to come alongside and help you get to where you want to go. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But we actually started one hundred bucks a month. We've got programs where you can get that at least some help along the way to get you to where you want to go. And we grow from there. But it comes down to this process of how do we get you to take the actions you know you need to take? How do we get you to move forward consistently? And it's just like the example you used is great. The one that I love to use is the example of going to get into shape. You don't go to the gym for three days straight and be done. That doesn't cut Joe: It's. Brian: It. You know, usually you go once for a few hours and you're like, oh my God, you wake Joe: Yeah. Brian: Up the next day and you can't move. And so it's like, why would you expect you to be able to do that in the other areas of your life? Joe: Yeah, I go to the gym five days a week and I still am like, why don't I look better? So you're really in a great position to do this, because how many years did you spend in that whole seminar course kind of world? And I know you're still involved in some of it, but you helped run Brian: Well, Joe: Some Brian: I Joe: Of these. Brian: Yeah, I help promote Joe: Yep. Brian: To put them on the grand scheme of things, I didn't do that a lot. I was probably with them for maybe about a year before the franchise partnership broke up and therefore the franchise collapsed. But it was a great opportunity and I learned a lot going through that process. Back in starting in 2003, I joined Toastmasters and worked myself up over the number of years to become a semi-professional speaker when I wrote my first book and got kind of started in that. But I never really got traction and got that off the ground in this process. One of the things that happened was I shifted from Toastmasters into a leadership role in nonprofit organizations, specifically to the Boy Scouts. But one of the things I saw was because, again, I was focusing on the teaching aspect because I love watching that light bulb go off. But what I didn't realize was because I didn't see it in my life at the moment, at the time yet was that, again, teaching them was good. But coaching them is better because, again, it's about growth and it's part of my all the exercises and things I've done. I mean, I have done it easily. Quarter of a million dollars on personal development. I have bookcases and bookcases of books and tape series that are, you know, this is the pretty self I have, you know, boxes on wooden shelves and storage units full of books and stuff that I've consumed. And it's actually one of my coaching partners mentioned to me and from one of the coaching programs I was in, he says she said, Brian, you have a vault of ideas and strategies to help somebody to move forward. Brian: And so when they need it, you can provide it for them. And so really, it's about getting people to move. It's not about trying to teach you something new. It's about how can I get you to move forward and understanding how to motivate somebody to move. And he talks about the pleasure and pain principles. We move away from pain a lot easier than we do towards pleasure. But many times we only use pleasure as the incentive for us to do something. And a lot of times I'm working with some basic activities with somebody. One of the things that you can see it here in the video, if you're watching it, is my incredible results, 928 Challenge Journal, which is basically spending about 20 minutes each evening documenting what happened today, well, as planning tomorrow. And the first challenge that people come up with is doing it every day. So far, nobody has done ninety one days straight. There's a few that have come close. But on average, it takes people a good month to get into the habit of consistently writing in their journal. And so, again, it's about understanding what it takes to get people to move in the direction they have said they want to go and using those two buttons and pushing them at the right point to get things to to happen. And again, once we start getting that ball rolling and we start developing momentum, that's when it gets fun. Joe: So we are in the age of so many, like self education, know so many programs and classes and courses and all of this stuff on the Internet, right. You can find it everywhere. So and you might even admit to this yourself, because based on what you just said about having a shelf full of tapes and all of this stuff, what would you say to the there are people out there that are professional seminar attendees right there, their professional course. So, Brian: We call them seminar junkies. Joe: Ok, so Brian: Yeah, Joe: We Brian: I've been there. Joe: Ok, so this is good because you're coming from the understanding that Brian: Oh, yeah. Joe: One more seminar, a one more class or one more course is not going to make the difference. It's that you have to start implementing what you've already learned and actually admit to yourself that you haven't done the work or this is the work you need to do and actually come up with a plan. Right. It's just like we hear it a million times. It's just so hard for people to understand, myself included. I'm not I'm not preaching from a soapbox here that, you know, you have to have a roadmap. Right. Because if you wanted to get hop in your car today and drive somewhere, you need to know where you're going. Right. You would get lost. Brian: Yes. Joe: It's no different Brian: Yes. Joe: With our life. Right. So what would you say to those people that are listening to that do continue to just think that that next breakthrough is around the corner by buying yet another course are going to some sort of seminar or conference? Brian: Put down the Kool-Aid because you have drunk the Kool-Aid, Joe: Right. Brian: What they're actually doing is they're pursuing the feeling, the positive feelings they get when they go to the seminar. They're enjoying that high and over time that wears off and they want to change the way they feel. They get frustrated and they go, oh, I want to feel better. Their subconscious then says, OK, well, how do we make ourselves feel? How we do that? Let's go to another seminar. I talk about this in the master class. That is, we get stuck on this learning loop and we go and we learn some information. We get all excited and we go try it and we fail. And usually when we fail once or twice, we quit. It gets hard. It gets uncomfortable. And we don't like to stay there. We don't like we don't we want to don't want to go through that process of learning how to do it and do it long enough to get good enough at it that we actually get to the other side of. OK, I got this. You know, it's like learning to ride a bike. You're going to fall and the only way to get better is to have somebody let go in and you fall down. You got to go through that process. You've got to learn to you have to make the mistakes. You have to, quote, fail, because, again, it depends on how you define the word failure, because at the end of the day, we get to choose what things mean. My definition of failure is different than most people's. My definition of failure is you only fail when you quit or give up. Joe: Hmm, agreed. Brian: Or you don't even try. Joe: Yeah, so it's almost better that if someone had that itch, they should stop for a moment and say, OK, let's do this, let's just try something completely different that we've never done before. Let's actually hire a coach and spend the same amount of money that we would have spent on a course. But we have a coach with us by our side for however many months or a year or whatever, however long that is. That same amount of money could be spread out to have someone keep you accountable and help you to come up with a plan and stay on track and implement all the ideas. Right. Brian: Absolutely. Joe: It would be worth a try for anybody who's one of these. You could Digicom junkies to seminar junkies. Brian: Yeah, the seminar junkies, Joe: Yeah, Brian: Yes. Joe: Right. So it would be a change? Brian: What's Joe: Of course Brian: The Joe: It would Brian: Right Joe: Be. Brian: If what's your outcome? What do you want? Why are you going to that seminar? And there were several times where people said, well, what are you what do you expect from this? What do you want to learn from this? And people are sitting there throwing out answers. And I would be sitting in the background going, I really don't know. I don't I don't have an answer for that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And that was kind of the clue is like, wait a minute, why am I here? Because I want to learn. That's not good enough. I want you to know I started getting specifics is I want to learn how to do such and such and such, and I want to be able to, you know, be successful at doing that. And, you know, whether that was real estate investing or personal development becoming a coach, a lot of those things was, OK, how do you do it? Because, again, we're learning about doing and we learn through doing much more powerfully. There's a difference between head understanding and gut level understanding. And so, first off, a coach, if you haven't had a coach before. I'll share a good story with you, because this is how I got introduced to coaching was I actually bought the up sell of a seminar program that actually included six monthly coaching sessions with one of the coaches that's kind of designed to help you do it. And my experience was I actually got more done in those six months than I had in the previous five years. I did more stuff. I made more progress. And as I went back and analyzed the even deeper, I did more the week before that phone call that I had the previous three weeks combined because I knew I was going to have to get on the phone with him. And again, we're leveraging fear and that pain to our advantage. That's one of the reasons why I wrote my last book on Leisure Fear. One of the strategies that I teach is how to make your friend and how you make sure your friend, as you turn fear around, it's pulling you forward instead of holding you back. Brian: And one of the ways that we do that, as we make it more painful to stay where you are than where you want to go and having to get on the phone call with me or on the Zoom call with me. And we sit in there and says, OK, Joe, you said last week you were going to accomplish these three things. How how far did you get on number one, how far did you get on number two? How far did you get on number three? Now, I don't beat you up if you don't get them done. What I'm doing is I'm wanting to get under neath it and understand the root cause of what's holding you back, because when I when we're able to do that, you see hole that was fear of criticism. That's what prevented me from making those sales calls. I needed to make up for the fear of rejection or whatever it was. And we talk about that. And then we because again, we get to choose what things mean. And so what does it mean to make a cold call? Most people hate cold calls. What if you could turn things around to where you loved cold calls? Because, again, you get to choose what things mean. You can love cold calls. And so, again, it's basically going in there and playing in the mind and shifting away the what the beliefs are, because that's what it comes down to it. That's what our life is all about, is how we feel and what we believe. And when we understand that we do everything in life to change the way we feel. It's really interesting on where things go from there. Joe: Yeah, and I think either I think I read something from your website, I believe, but something you said, I think that's where it was, but it was something about the moment we actually tell the world what it is that we want to do. We're accountable for it. Right then we everyone that that was in earshot of that or reads it somewhere on our website that we're now responsible to do it. And that's why so many people don't actually put that out there, because then they're like, oh, crap, I actually have to do that now. I said it. Brian: Right, Joe: I told Brian: Yeah. Joe: Everyone I was going to do this. Brian: But you're right, it comes down to we are afraid to put ourselves out there Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Because we're afraid of being criticized now, we do have different types of people in our lives. We have people that I refer to as Krabs, and they're usually in your left hand. For those people who haven't heard the story, I'm sure you have. Is it if you put a crab in a five gallon bucket without a lid on it, it'll crawl out right Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Easily. But if you put two crabs into that five gallon bucket without a lid, they won't crawl out. The more actually, the more crabs that are in there, the less likelihood that the crab is going to get away, because as that crab, they're programming mental instinct programming that we have within us is that to stay part of the group to follow the herd. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And if somebody is trying to climb out, they're going away. And so the rest of the group will pull them back down. And if he continues to do that time and time again, they will actually kill him. Joe: Oh, I didn't know that part of the story. Brian: Yes, well, the same thing is true with other people in our lives. We have people that are on the same level that we are or below us and we're wanting to grow. Now, that doesn't mean that they have negative intentions. They're actually doing it for a positive reason because, one, they don't want you to leave them, but they also don't want to see you get hurt. This is where our family comes in. Parents say, oh, you just sit still, Johnny, because you're not ready for that yet, or they don't want you to go pursue this thing that they perceive as scary, risky, and you're likely to get hurt. And so they're going to try to talk you out of going in, pursuing your great dream. But then there's other people that, again, they're just going to knock you down, they're going to pull you down. And if you've ever listened to Lester Brown, he talks about that and his family, he'd show up for Thanksgiving. And his brother goes, Hey, Les, how's that seminar speaking gig going? And it was almost I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. But we also have people that want to support us and help us. And so it's who are you going to listen to and who are you going to spend time with? And so but it's also important to be in that group of people. Brian: Your support people are in your right hand, your crabs are in your left hand. It's important to know who the person you're across the table with and who you're talking with on the phone. Is this person a crab or is this a supporter and then interact with them appropriately? Because if you're talking with a crab, you stay in the shallow end. You don't talk about your dreams. You talk about the weather, you talk about sports, you talk about whatever that is dull and boring at the time and not really enlightening to us, but allows us to maintain the relationship because there's times in our life when, yes, we can eliminate some of those crabs because other times they're related to us and we can't get rid of them. And so what do you do? So in part of it is, one, you reduce the amount of time, and then two, you understand who you're having the conversation with and understand they're coming to you with a positive intent. They're trying to keep you safe. They're trying to they want you to be happy and they want you to stay well and they don't want you to get hurt. But the same thing is true with our subconscious, which is why our biggest enemy is right up here Joe: Yep. Brian: Is the robot that runs the show 80 to 90 percent of the time. And that's where I spend a lot of time, is helping people reprogram the robot, their subconscious, because unfortunately, it was a program with a lot of crappy code and trying to reprogram it is not as easy as copy, delete and then copy and paste. It's not that easy. It's like the biggest, ugliest ball of spaghetti you've ever seen and trying to figure out where that thing goes. And it's a mess. It's just a mess in there. And but we do have the ability to go in there and change it. And the more we actively pursue that and focus on that and pursue growth, the faster we can get to where we want to go. Joe: So we're going to talk about the services you offer, but you touched upon something that in a previous episode that I had put out, I got a lot of comments about it. And so I want to talk about it as it relates to you personally. And then we can talk about how you use it with your clients. But you spoke about journaling. And the more and more I hear, either I have guest on or I hear people talk about it, the more and more I feel like it's almost got the same benefits as when people talk about meditating, how you can quiet the mind. It was all this fufu stuff many years ago and now it's becoming more the norm. Right? It's something that you need that quiet time. So tell me more about what you think journaling does for people and the importance of journaling Brian: Ok, well, Joe: And Brian: Actually. Joe: Whether or not you actually do it nightly or daily or I'd be Brian: Yes, Joe: Interested to know. Brian: Yes, the the if you can see it there, it says, a life worth living as a life worth recording. And so, Tony, he's inspired me to consistently journal. I have journals from my first in fact, in my latest move, I was going through a lot of them. And I came across the journal that I had right after college. And I was actually really interested to go back and see the progress of my first sales job that I bombed out. I lasted like three months. My experience was the story I was telling myself was different than the story that I was reading. And so, one, it's a great way to document your journey in life. But the way that I teach people to journal No. One is it leverages the power of evaluated experience because you stop and think about it. You probably have heard that experience is the best teacher. Yes and no, because unless we learn the lessons from that experience, then it was pointless. If we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, we keep doing the same thing and expect different results. We're not learning. We're not growing. And so journaling is a great way for you to document your journey, but also to stop and evaluate what happened today. What did I get done? Because many times we get to the end of the week, we get to the end of the month. Man, I feel like I didn't get anything done. And you can go back to the daily journal process and go, oh, yeah, well, I did that and I did that and I did that and I did that. Brian: But it also allows you to say, OK, what am I actually getting done? And is what I'm getting done, moving me in the direction I want to go? Because, again, we've talked about the journey that we're on. We have a goal we want to achieve. And in order to get there, we like you said, we have to have a plan. Many people don't put together the plan. In fact, many go study programs. And I listen to rarely was there any planning process involved. And so I actually stepped somebody through this. Exactly. And the incredible results on what they challenge is Ugo's. We set our big yearly goal and we break that down into what are we going to accomplish in the next ninety one days and then we break that down. This is OK. What's going to be month one? What's going to be month two? What's going to be month three? And then we break that down. OK, what's going to be week one of month one. What's going to be in week two. Week three, week four. Because again, the only way to get to complete the ninety one day journey is to each day make forward progress. And how do you make sure you're making forward progress if you never look at the map and compare your results, what you're getting to see if you're moving in the right direction. Brian: It's like a airplane taking off from New York to L.A. without a GPS system, without a method for them to course. Correct. You know, there's a reason why there's a compass in the airplane. There's a reason why there's a GPS in there that's consistently every moment checking in and saying, am I on track? Am I on track and making those little minor adjustments along the way? Because if you actually look at a slight wiggle from L.A. to New York, because there's turbulence up there, there's wind currents up there, lots of different things depending on which way you're flying. Are you flying with the jet stream or against the jet stream? All of these things are impacting that flight. The same thing is true in our life. How do we make sure we are on target? And journalese is one of the ways to do that. But we also encourage people. The way that the journal is set up is to do that evaluation experience where you document what you got done, you documents your lessons along the way, and you also document the changes that you want to make, the adjustments that are going to make tomorrow a better day. How can I be better tomorrow? And then you plan tomorrow. One of the biggest challenges we have is making sure we get the right stuff done. How do you make sure you make time to get those important but not urgent activities into your schedule? Because if you do not intentionally plan them and schedule them into your calendar, rarely, very rarely are they going to actually happen, which means you're never going to really make the progress you want to make, because stop and think about it, your goals require a lot of time and energy doing those things that are important but not urgent, which is another reason why having the accountability is a big factor in that. Brian: It's like, OK, it's it's not urgent, but oh, my coach is going to be asking about it. What do we just do? We created the needed urgency. Give you a perfect example. I had one of my clients. She wanted to raise her rates and so she'd been talking about it for months. And so we were working on the programming in her head so that she felt like she was worthy of that price increase, putting it off and putting it off. And this is OK, put and says, OK, what's the plan? And so we specifically detailed walk through the plan. OK, I need to put a sign up on the door and I need to send out a notification of my. People and I got an email and, you know, here's an opportunity for people to come in and sign up for a plan where they can lock in the current pricing. And I says, OK, when I come see you next week, I want to see the sign on the door. When you think you put the sign on the door right after that call, Joe: Ten minutes Brian: 15 Joe: Before Brian: Minutes Joe: You showed Brian: Before Joe: Up. Brian: I 15 minutes before I walked in the door. Exactly. And it wouldn't have happened if I had not pushed her to make that commitment. As a mom, what are we going to do? Are we just going to keep going down this road? Because that's one of things that we do, is we look at it, says, OK, what happens if you don't change? If you keep doing the same thing you're doing today over and over again, you're going to get the same results. Are you happy with that? Are you satisfied with it? If you're not, then what are you going to do differently tomorrow? That's going to change. The trajectory that you're going internally is a big piece of that is to help make sure that you are documenting your journey and you're evaluating the experiences that you're getting and making sure that they're taking you in the direction you want to go and if it's not making those adjustments along the way. Joe: Is the majority of the time it happens is at night, just before you go to bed sort of thing. Brian: One of the things that we designed the system to be very flexible. There's actually a place for people to write in their schedule and there's no numbers on it because I've got clients. It's wake up at five o'clock in the morning and then there's guys like me who don't start their day until seven, but I'm usually up till midnight. So, again, it just comes down to fitting it into your system. And that's actually one of the things we do within the group coaching calls is we're saying, how do I take this system that Brian has created and apply it to my life? How does this fit into my life? And we teach people how to do that. And I've got one client who does restoration work. So he's very much like a firefighter. The phone rings and it's like the alarm bell going off. He's got to go fix somebody's problem. So how does he schedule his day? And so we came up with a system on how to use the system because what happens if the alarm doesn't go off? What are you going to do? So we had a plan, a system and a Plan B system Joe: Mm Brian: For Joe: Hmm. Brian: It. We recommend the Evening Times for a couple of reasons. Number one, when you're planning tomorrow, you don't have to remember it. Actually, you get a better night's sleep. Joe: I get it off your brain. Brian: Right, and so your brain, is it trying to remember all the things you've got to do tomorrow? We also encourage now I have some people completed at their end of their workday. So at four thirty, when they go home at 5:00, I've got one woman who does it at three thirty before she go pick up her kid at school at 4:00 and she's basically document what did I get done? And she's also there's still some things potentially that she's going to do because we incorporate not just your business, but your life in the journal. And so it's like, OK, what am I going to be doing for all 16 hours? And I'm awake and relax and let go because so many times we struggle with constantly running. And there's a reason why there's a pad of paper and a pen on my bedside is because there's a lot of times I wake up in this ideas and I got to sit there and I get to write it down because I will not remember when I wake up in the morning. And so it just comes down. We try to get the system to fit the person, not the person to fit the system Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Like so many of them do. But at the end of the day, it comes down to what works for you. We recommend in the evening because of the benefits there. There are some people that do it first thing in the morning. If that's the case, as long as you're doing the system, great. Joe: I just hear about it all the time, and I said I was going to start it after the last episode, that someone who was heavily into it, I even publicly said, all right, I got to start doing it and I still haven't done it. Brian: Well, let's have a conversation about that, Joe, because, again, at the end of the day, it's what is it going to take to get you to move? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And that's actually something that because, again, I've got numerous stories that I can tell you about people that because one of the one of the most common mistakes that people make when they're doing the journal is the fact that they only do it Monday through Friday. They don't do it Saturday, Sunday, because, again, like the woman who does it at the end of the workday, my question to them is, OK, that's good. But what are you going to do, come on Saturday, Sunday when you're not going to the office? What are you going to do then? And so we create a plan on how and then we got to you got to figure out how to make it work. And so I actually challenged several of the people to do it, says, OK, if you don't in. The other thing is, is not getting the journal done. The night before it was OK. If you don't do the journal the night before, you have to spend two minutes on a cold shower in the morning. I don't know about you, but yes, they talk about cold showers being this great, wonderful thing. But I don't want that in the morning. No, thank you. And so, again, we move away from paying much better than the the perceived pleasure. OK, and so it's creating the pain. So it was like, OK, you don't do the journal, not before you're going to take a cold shower or I mean, really what I would do is I give them a choice. I says you can either a take the cold shower or B, you have to text me that says I didn't do my journal last night. Which one do you think people chose? And I said, OK, those are your two choices. You have to choose the greater pain. Which one do you think they chose as the greater pain? Joe: I would think having the texture would be more of the pain. Brian: Yes, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Because that is admitting Joe: Yeah, Brian: That they failed, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Which just goes to show you the level of programming we have around failure. And so, again, it's using fear and pain to move you in the direction you want to go. Joe: All right, a lot to unpack there. So we only have a little bit of time left and I want to honor your time. So let's do this first. Let's talk about I have for services written down that you offer. And you might have added one. You might have taken one away. But I have your one on one coaching. I have the ninety one day challenge. I have the mastermind and then I have your weekly accountability coaching. And so can you just briefly give us an explanation of those. And if I missed one at it and if you're not doing one of them, take it away. Brian: Ok, well, as a coach, I need I don't know where you are, so I don't know which service to offer you or which one is the right fit for you, Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: You or your listener. And so I really start with what I refer to as a discovery session where we sit down and talk about where you are and where you want to go. And then based upon that conversation, we determine how to best help you. Now, where do people usually start? But most people start with the incredible results, starting with their challenge, because it is the one skill that helps people take the action they know they need to be taking that will help them reach their goals. And they see tremendous immediate results, positive results and benefits from participating in the program. And it's one that it's only one hundred and ninety seven dollars if somebody wanted to participate in it. But you got to come through me and do that discovery session in order to determine whether or not that's the good right fit for you. The other thing that is like rocket boosters on the on any one day challenge is the weekly accountability coaching calls and the incredible results. And what a challenge. We do a group coaching call where we are sitting down and we are we're talking how to help use the system, how to get the system to work and fit into your life, and how to help you consistently take action on it. But we also help you with your plan on accomplishing your ninety one day goal. So if your goal is to get 50 new clients, this is OK. What are you doing this week that's going to make you more clients? And we're talking about those different activities in those different ideas and strategies. Brian: So the problem is, is there's anywhere from five to 15 people on that call, depending on how many people are actually in the group at one time. And so it comes down to how do you get enough of my time to where we can truly focus on that programming piece that we've talked about, which is such a big, ugly mess that gets in the way all the time. That is where that one on one time comes in to, where we actually spend 30 minutes specifically talking. We it's a very specifically designed program, says, OK, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I got done. Here's what I learned. And here's the changes I'm going to make so we can review that in eight to ten minutes pretty quickly. And then we spend the next twenty minutes digging into what got in the way. What's the challenge and struggle you're dealing with right now? That's either the bitch that you're in, the roadblock you're facing, or what's holding you back from moving forward. And that right there is tremendously powerful and makes the ninety one day challenge much more successful. And people who are participating in both their results that they get in and I know they challenge is heads and shoulders above the people that are just in the program by itself. Joe: Yep, and I have to ask this, because I'm sure if I was listening to this, it would be driving me nuts the entire time. It's like, why ninety one days? It's not 60, 30, 90, 120. Brian: It's seven times 13 is 91, seven days for 13 weeks. Joe: Steamworks got it. Brian: So because, again, one quarter is three months, which is four point three weeks, and so it's to get a full 13 weeks is ninety one days. Joe: Perfect. So we covered that and the Brian: Ok, Joe: Weekly accountability and then Brian: Right. Joe: The one on one coaching is. Brian: The one on one coaching I refer to I refer to as my general coaching, and that's where somebody is really wanting to grow and make changes. And a lot of times people will start off there. And again, they're wanting to do a lot of growth and unpacking and deal with the programming issues that are going on. And they're wanting to make some significant changes. Those are one hour sessions and those are usually each week as well where we're digging in and we're trying to figure out again, we're making some serious shifts in there. And then a lot of times it's like, OK, we got them straightened out and we got them on a path. We've created the plan. We've got the momentum going now and it's starting to move forward. And a lot of those people will roll into the accountability coaching so that they have the regular check ins that are getting done what they want to get done, but they don't need to necessarily. OK, let's dive in deep in there and start digging around. Those are wonderful sections. I love doing them, but they take a lot of energy on both myself as well as the person because we're going deep. Know, one of the things that you probably have learned by now listen to this is I don't like to play in the shallow end. I like to dive deep and I like to go under the covers. And if people aren't, that's the other thing is if you've got to be comfortable in playing in the deep end and there's a lot of times when my role as a coach is not to tell somebody what to do, I almost never do that because who's an expert on Joe and Joe's business, Joe is right. So my role is to ask you the questions that is going to help you come up with the answers and solutions to the problems that you're faced with that external perspective and to help you come up with the solution that is within yourself and that the mastermind is more Joe: That's Brian: At the upper Joe: Ok. Brian: Level Joe: Ok. Brian: And that right now is closed. So people are not available into that. And usually what happens is we start people off in the 90s when they challenge and there's those people are rolling up into that mastermind as they complete the 91 day challenge. Joe: Scott. Brian: But we start people off with where they are and what they can afford of what they need to do. And so we have programs that start, like I said, at one hundred dollars a month, up to twenty five to five thousand dollars a month, depending upon which program you're involved with. And there are other things that I do. I have mentioned Tony Robbins, but I have not mentioned John Maxwell, most certified coach, trainer and speaker of the John Maxwell team, which means for those people who are not familiar with John Maxwell, he's a world renowned leadership expert. And that was one of the big challenges that I saw was there was a lack of quality leadership in our world today. And because my target market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional, they have never really had much experience with leadership training. But again, I'm not a leadership trainer. I'm a leadership developer. And so we have leadership programs using John's world class material that over a period of 90 days, we teach you the strategies and you practice them for ninety one days so that you develop those skill sets along the way. And so, again, it depends upon where you are and what you need and what tool is necessary to help you fix the problem that you're up against. Because again, I use Stephen Covey, I use Joe Mitali. I will pick from anybody I need to and I will claim that everything that I share didn't originate with me. Brian: I'm standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before me as far as you know, all the way back to the Greeks, Aristotle and and some of those, because they had it first. They they mentioned it. And again, everybody since then is really just repackaging it from there. And if somebody wants to do a DIY version of it, pick a great book. Napoleon Hill's was probably the the godfather of personal development or at least modern person development with they can grow rich. And one of my mentors actually went and read the book and studied it over and over and over again. You probably have heard the suggestion that you should go read a book a week or so, go read 50 bucks a year. Right. I challenge you. That's not the right strategy if you're wanting to grow. It's a great way to learn information. But if you're wanting to make changes in your life. Yeah, one great book and read it 50 times, study it, do the exercises at the end of the chapter, implement the strategies. Another great one is Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That that book still to date. That's one book I try to read at least once a year. And I'm usually listening to it because I'm taking advantage of the windshield time that I have. And it seems like there's always something more in there. Brian: That book is so deep and there's so many different levels that you can get into it as you grow. There's another level. There's another level. There's another level, which is how I spend a lot of my time. Yes, I have three different coaches and I'm constantly consuming more and more material. But there are there's about ten different books that I try to spend time reading consistently because they're the road maps, they're the foundational skills. And it's going to take for me to get to where I want to go. And it's only through consistently coming back to it. You don't become a master blackbelt by learning how to do the form and doing it perfectly. One time I believe it was Berklee that said, I don't fear the man that knows ten thousand ticks. I fear the man that is practiced one kick ten thousand times in the story that got you the story and the rest of the story was the example of that was he says will show me. And and basically what it was is because that person had practice that kicks so well. It doesn't matter if even if you know it's coming, you can't block it, you can't stop it. He has mastered how to do it regardless of what you do to counteract that. The only way to not get kicked is to not get into the fight. Joe: So. We're over a little bit, we have a few more minutes. Brian: Oh, yeah, I'm good. Joe: Ok, cool. So I want to ask you about because you mentioned since we're on the subject of books and you mentioned Joe Vitale and you were you are part of a book called The Abundance Factor. Brian: Yep. Joe: Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that came about and. Brian: Well, I was on the short list as Joe was looking to write his next compilation book, and I had been following him, been a fan of him, read a number of his books. I still practice one of one of the big things that sticks for me from Joe is the story of Hopital Pono. If you have not read the book Zero Factor, I highly recommend it. It's a very fascinating book. The mantra that that book teaches is something that actually helps me go to sleep at night because my brain has a hard time shutting down. And by saying that for phrase mantra helps my it's kind of a signal to my brain to stop thinking and go from into my head and into my body. And so it's really helpful there. And so I was on the short list of authors that Joe asked to help participate in that book. It's called The Abundance Factor. I knew the group of people that were pulling together. And so my chapter is called The Unpleasant Truth, because, again, there's a lot of people out there teaching because we're talking about the mindset of abundance, which is something that a lot of people struggle with. But it's hard for people to actually do it and practice it consistently. And that's really what my chapter was about. It was about taking the actions that the book is encouraging you to take. And so that's what my chapter is in that book. April of the year that it came out, we did hit the Amazon bestseller list with that book at the time. And it's been a great book. And I use it more of a as a calling card and as an introduction to myself when I'm meeting new people. Joe: And then you mentioned earlier about a book that you wrote that I did not actually see in my notes. So can you tell me about that? Right. Was Brian: Ok, Joe: There. Brian: I've written three books. Joe: Ok. Brian: The first book is called Ready, Set Succeed, which is a self published book. Again, it was another compilation with a series of different authors. And I've got several boxes of those still today that, again, I use them as is handouts. And it's, again, about taking action because again, that's what I saw people struggle with and implementation because again, at the end of the day, it's ready, set, succeed, go. You've got to get moving. And so we were all writing the chapter based upon that. It was a self published book. The only way that you can get that is to go through me to get that I'm aware of. And I actually did have a client come to me through that book for one of the other offers. They got it. They called me up and that chapter resonated with them. And it was an opportunity for me to help them out. Then we wrote The Abundance Factor, and then after that we wrote a book called Unleash Your Fear. And that book is available right now. You can go to unleash your fear dot com and get a copy of that. Right now, at this point in time, it is about a 40 page e-book. You can get a copy were actually read it to you for in about an hour. Brian: But that's one of our projects for the rest of this year, is to work on rewriting that book and expanding it to where it's around a hundred pages and we turn it into a physical book and using that as a methodology to share that message. Because as we've gone back and we've we've shared that message, we teach in a very powerful concept in that book about the relationship that people have with fear, because right now most people have a lousy relationship with fear. But fear is just a tool that's used by our subconscious. And our subconscious causes us problems because it's designed not to make us happy. It's not designed to make us successful. It's designed to make us survive. Problem is, when we do go out there, when we want to grow, when we want to succeed and we want more, it sees that as not surviving. That's risky. There's pain out there if we pursue those things. So how do we how do we change that? How do we work on that? That's what I've understood from the people that have read the book, that a lot of people enjoyed it and you can actually still get it for free for a little bit longer. Brian: We're in the process of getting that changed. You can go to unleash your fear Dotcom and get a copy of that book there. And once we get the expanded version, we will still be using that. You are all along the way. And so in this process, we've got a lot of great tools that are available to you. And we've talked about a lot. Joe, you're actually one of the longer podcasts that I've gone on and we've talked about a lot of different things. But one thing we haven't talked about is one of the foundations that I used for my coaching, which I refer to as the Five Keys of Success. And that's actually a podcast that I do called the Five Keys of Success podcast. And you can go out there to wherever you get your podcasts and Google five Keys successor Brian Lovegrove, and you'll be able to find it. And I talk about those five keys, because at the end of the day, because, again, I've been doing personal development for decades now. And so I boiled down all of that stuff to what is the true fundamental foundational skills and tools you need. And I came up with those five keys. You want to know what those five keys Joe: I Brian: Are? Joe: Do, I have actually you were not going to get off this podcast without talking about it, so I have them here. I still have other stuff. That's why I like that. Yes. So please, I totally want to these this is like one of the things that really triggered it. When I wanted to have you on as a guest, I'm like, man, I want to know what those are. Brian: Well, the five keys of success, the first key is clarity, and I refer to it as get clear because without clarity, you're lost, you're wandering around in a fog. If you don't have a destination, you're never going to be able to get there. And if you don't know where you are, how do you know how you're going to go from where you are to where you want to go? And we talked about the plan. If you are not clear on the plan on how to achieve your goal, you're not going to get there now. But there's some also challenges with that piece because, again, a lot of people may not necessarily know how to get to that point, but do you know how to get started? Because that's the key. Do you know what the next step is? How many people get bogged down with steps? Nine hundred and eighty seven through steps. Twelve hundred and eighty four. Well, what steps do you want? I'm on step five. What step six. I don't know. Focus on step six, seven, eight, nine. OK, focus on what's in front of you and these other steps you will figure out by the time you get to that point. The second key is commitment because without commitment we cave in to the fear. We don't have the motivation, the energy and the power to keep going when things get. And the analogy that I love to use is the story about Cortez. When he landed in The New World, he burned his boats. His men woke up the next morning and they went in. He addresses many gentlemen. There is no way home that we do not create for ourselves. And so his small band took on and conquered much larger nations and groups of people in South America because they were committed to making it happen because it was either do or die. Joe: I'm a big fan of burning the boats, by the way. Brian: Absolutely, that's one of the podcasts that we did, is, OK, how do you burn the boats? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And we kind of walk through that exercise and that's that can be a whole coaching process. My story around that was I used to weigh two hundred and sixty pounds and I went on a diet and I lost thirty five pounds in the first month and a half. It was a radical diet. And one of the things that I did on the back deck in the fire pit is I burn my fat jeans and I actually have a picture of you. It's it's at night. You can all you can really see the flames. You can barely make out the jeans as part of the picture. But I vividly remember that process. And I promised myself I would never buy that size pair of clothes ever again. Now, have I been able to keep off all the weight that I lost? No. But when my pants get tight, that option is not there. Joe: Yeah. Brian: It's like, OK, we got to do something, we got to turn this around because we are not buying a bigger sized pair of pants. And so, again, that's where that burning the boats actually comes in, which leads us to step three, which is get crankin or get busy taking action. Money talks about taking massive action. And, you know, how many times have I you know, I've tried everything. Really? How many times have you tried? What have you tried? A hundred things.

Part 2, of our five-part interview with Ari Galper of Unlock The Sales Game. Topics covered in this episode Building Trust to Create an Open, Comfortable Sales EnvironmentWhy Most Sales Are Lost at the Beginning of the Process, Not at the EndWhy Sales is so Much More Than Just a “Numbers Game”1 The Power of Trust-Based LanguagingNever “Chase Ghosts” AgainHow to Remove the Pressure from a Sales Call https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toDxvWynhmg Full Convo ➡️ https://brianjpombo.com/bjpchats/ Transcription Brian: Wow. So you talked about running into that brick wall of, you know, just seeing reality for what it was. How did you get from that point, to figuring all this out, how did you come across that? Ari: Actually that was my trial and error right there. I had enough. I was like, I'm done with this, I'm not gonna treat myself like this ever again. I felt asthought I was mentally abused. I felt like disgusted. I quit my job and I said to myself, enough is enough. If this has happened to me right now, it's probably happened to 1,000s of people all over the world, millions of people who don't even recognize they're being treated this way. And I literally sat down and came up with my approach that basically became a bomb in the industry and revolutionize everything, and really helped people see the truth. That's why I created my, Unlocking Game System, which we could talk about today and share with you insights and ideas and help people who are also experiencing this every single day losing tons of money, because they don't know any other way of doing it. Brian: So tell us more about, Unlocking The Game. Ari: Sure, there's sort of like three core principles behind the system. And I want to clean out the mental harddrive that your listeners probably have right now, right? What they believe selling is, so I can pour in some new ideas, because it is a mindset shift. And the first core sales method is why I'm sure you heard this one before that sales is a numbers game. That's a pretty common myth. Where the more contacts you make, the more sales you're supposed to make. That's the concept, right? Because the more people you meet, the more phone calls you made, the more demos you have, will miraculously somehow it'll trigger out more results. Well, we discover in this day and age now in this economy, it's not about how many contacts you make anymore. It's about how deep you go on each conversation, how good you are trust building, not how good you are, how many contacts you make, or how many meetings you have, or how many demos you have is the opposite of how people view the process. Number two, is kind of a big one that the sale is lost at the end of the process. I'm sure you've had deals pending before. Where it all looked good, all positive and at the end it just like, fell through, right? Brian: Yeah. Ari: So we discovered in our research that the sale is not lost anymore at the end of the process, it's now lost at the beginning of the process, even at hello. I'll prove it to you right now come and find a way, if someone calls your office tomorrow morning, you pick up the phone and you hear, hi, my name is, I'm with, we are, what goes through your mind in about three seconds? Brian: It's a salesperson. Ari: It's over at hello, isn't it? Your guard goes up, you pull back, and now you're in the game. So I'll make the case today that most of your listeners or viewers are most likely losing their sale, not at the end of the process, they're most likely losing it at the beginning. Now that they're always doing outbound calls, but I won't explain today why they're losing their opportunities in the beginning and not the end, which is so, so contrarian. I mean, every sales guru in the world teaches people to focus on getting the what? Brian: The End. Ari: The end. Turns out, it was lost at the beginning, they got it all wrong.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a podcast inspired by Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler's extremely popular TikTok channel with over 2.5 million followers. Every week, Dr. Brian uses a light-hearted approach and shares health trends popular on the app. Using his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher he confirms (No Cap) or debunks (Cap) the topic and shares best practices with listeners. New episodes will be released every Wednesday. In this episode, Dr. Brian continues his discussion with Part Two of How to Sleep Better. Dr. Brian breaks down the many supplements that can aid in improving sleep, including melatonin and tryptophan. He details a number of factors that have been proven to effect sleep. Finally, Dr. Brian speaks to how our diet can impact sleep and provides tips on sleep preparation that can help lead to healthier sleep. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Episode Sponsor RevitalVision - https://www.revitalvision.com/ Key Takeaways 01:21 – Dr. Brian opens the show by reading a listener review and thanking today's sponsor, RevitalVision 03:29 – Dr. Brian recaps last week's episode, How to Sleep Better, Part One and introduces Part Two 05:12 – Dr. Brian discusses the impact lettuce water can have on sleep 06:21 – Dr. Brian lists supplements that can help improve sleep, including melatonin magnesium and tryptophan 09:42 – Dr. Brian provides a list of sleep techniques that can effect sleep 11:54 – Dr. Brian shares with the audience a reason not to make your bed 13:16 – Dr. Brian speaks to how dinner can help or hinder your sleep 14:22 – Dr. Brian lists a number of sleep preparation steps that can be beneficial to getting a good night's sleep 20:19 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap for today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap.   Tweetable Quotes “Another one is tryptophan. Now, you may not be thinking tryptophan and you have any relationship, but I guarantee you probably do because tryptophan is in turkey. And there's a reason people get into a ‘food coma' at Thanksgiving, because turkey has a lot of tryptophan.” (09:02) (Dr. Brian) “So, I'm gonna tell you something that's a very sobering reason to not make your bed. Do I have your attention now? There are these little critters called dust mites and they live better when your sheets are on your bed than when they are off. And the reason is because when your bed sheets are on it locks in moisture.” (12:03) (Dr. Brian) “How can dinner help you sleep or actually even hinder your sleep? Well, studies have shown that a high carb and low fat meal can actually worsen sleep versus a low carb, high fat meal.” (13:20) (Dr. Brian) “A warm bedroom is nice and cozy, I admit. But the heat is not neat for your sleep. I like the bedroom around sixty-eight degrees, which is about twenty degrees Celsius. And studies show that people tend to sleep better when it's cooler.” (16:07) (Dr. Brian) Links Mentioned Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram   Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a podcast inspired by Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler's extremely popular TikTok channel with over 2 million followers. Every week, Dr. Brian uses a light-hearted approach and shares health trends popular on the app. Using his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher he confirms (No Cap) or debunks (Cap) the topic and shares best practices with listeners. New episodes will be released every Wednesday. In this episode, Dr. Brian breaks down a video on TikTok that explores three distinct topics: teeth whitening, bruises and creativity. Dr. Brian debunks some common myths about these topics and shares a fascinating study on the influence color can have on our emotions and our creativity. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Episode Sponsor Tafah Oil - https://tafahoil.com/ Key Takeaways 01:18 – Dr. Brian introduces the topics of today's episode, teeth whitening, bruises and creativity boosters 03:13 – Dr. Brian provides some tips that may help to whiten teeth 06:56 – Dr. Brian debunks the myth that using toothpaste can help with bruises 08:08 – Dr. Brian provides general advice to help reduce bruising 09:35 – Dr. Brian breaks down the science of creativity 10:50 – How different colors can affect our mood and emotions in different ways 13:27 – Dr. Brian shares a fascinating study on color 16:08 – Dr. Brian teases a special guest that will be joining the next episode 16:28 – Dr. Brian encourages listeners to Rate and Review this podcast on RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap    Tweetable Quotes “If people want to try this – of course consult with a dentist first before trying this – take some baking soda, put it with some water, mix it up and just use the toothbrush to brush the teeth. It can help whiten teeth; it's been shown to do that. It could take a few weeks to a few months to do it.” (03:36) (Dr. Brian) “So you might remember a little while back there were people using nail files on TikTok to help to straighten their teeth. And that was really bad because it's eroding the enamel with the nail file and people can get into the nerves and get sensitivity. I was doing some videos last year about that like ‘No, don't do that. Bad idea, bad idea.” (05:20) (Dr. Brian) “Taking some pineapple and eating it can help reduce bruising and make the bruising go away faster. But also, there's a chemical in pineapple called bromelain and bromelain is the key part of why the pineapple helps. You can get bromelain cream as well and put it directly on the skin.” (09:01) (Dr. Brian) “Science has shown that the color green actually increases creativity with people. So if you are feeling like you've run into a block, if you've hit that wall and you just can't come up with any ideas for something, maybe look at a green apple, maybe pull up a green box on your computer.” (09:54) (Dr. Brian) “Yellow is a very effective color for boosting your mood. It's bright, it's happy, it has that effect on people. And yellow even has an association with comedy.” (12:26) (Dr. Brian)  Links Mentioned Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram   Please remember, Doctor Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Brian's son Tyler jumps in on tonight's episode to share his love for Nintendo Lego Super Mario in our talk about the power of combining interests. Brian also shares how combining interest of gardening and chickens has worked for a recent company he interviewed named, Roost and Root. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDL74CVn5FM Transcription Brian: Combine interests for extra attention. Hi I'm Brian Pombo, welcome back to Brian J. Pombo Live. And with me is… Tyler: Hello my name is Tyler. I'm his son, Brian J. Pombo. Brian: This is Tyler Pombo here. And he is How old are you? Tyler: I'm 7 years old, and I have a Mario I'm going to show, it's actually Lego Mario. Brian: Lego Mario, okay. What about it do you like? Tyler: Yeah, like, if you put them on green Legos. It shows like, green, and it's electronic. Brian: And so you could play games with them? Tyler: Yeah, like there's a little pipe that you put them in, and that's just like the Mario, you have a time and you have to go really fast. You only have one minute to delay. Brian: So it acts like the Super Mario games. Tyler: Yeah. Brian: So what what do you like, Do you like Legos, or do you like Mario? Tyler: Both. Brain: Okay, so both Legos and Mario. So they took Mario which which came first, Legos or Mario? Tyler: Legos. Brian: Legos came first. You're right. And then Mario came out. Tyler: So how you turn them on is, this a little button that's down here. Then there's a little app, and that's one of my favorite parts. Brian: An app for a phone? Tyler: Yeah. And then you push this one that's up above it, then it actually connects to it. Brian: It'll connect to the app? Tyler: Yeah, yeah. Brian: Was that Bluetooth or something? Tyler: Yeah. It's Bluetooth. It's awesome! Brian: So do you think do you like that better than a lot of your other Legos? Tyler: I used to build a lot of Legos that I changed to a bunch of stuff with Lego Mario. Brian: Yeah, and you but that's your favorite Lego piece is the Lego Mario ones. Tyler: Yeah. Brian: Do you think it's because they that combines two things that you really like? Tyler: Yeah, it's like super super cool. You guys can like get it. I bought this at like, Fred Meyer I think. Brian: We're not doing a commercial just for Mario. We have we have stores in this area called, Fred Meyer. That's what he's talking about. Tyler: Yeah. Brian: But, I think they got the point that you like Super Mario and you like Super Mario Legos. But the idea is, is that if you can combine…if you can combine two different interests, two different areas, two different things that people love. For example, on my podcast, the Off The Grid Biz Podcast, we had Roost and Root and that website, it actually combines the idea of raising chickens with gardening. Who someone that you know, that raises chickens and has a garden? Tyler: Mama. Brian: Mom does that. So it's common to have two things that go good together. You know, the old Reese's Peanut Butter Cup concept to two things that are good alone, but also are good together. So think about how you combine products, combine interests of your marketplace, and you'll be able to get a lot more attention. So don't forget about my book, 9 Ways to Amazon-Proof Your Business. You can get a free copy at AmazonProofBook.com and you can find out more ways to be able to make a huge difference in your business in the long run. It's a quick book, it's tiny. It's real thin. You get a hard copy or you get a free one AmazonProofBook.com and we'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for being on Tyler. Tyler: Yes. So there's like, so like you can also buy expensive and expand on Lego Mario. Brain: Oh yeah it goes on and on with all the Lego Mario stuff that you can. Tyler: Also you can take off his pants. Brian: Oh, yeah, which is always a good feature.

Who is behind the voice of our podcast introduction? Who edits The VBAC Link podcast episodes? Meet Brian Albers, The VBAC Link's secret weapon! Listen to this episode to find out why Brian has earned this title time and time again. We also learn some fun secrets and ask him some of your burning questions. But in all seriousness, we are SO grateful for all Brian does for us. He is a quality, genuine guy that they just don't make these days anymore!   Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookThe VBAC Link ShopFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: All right, you guys. Guess what? This is an episode that I know you guys have all been waiting for since we posted a picture of our secret weapon wearing, “Don't be all up in my perineum.” If you haven't seen the post, go scroll back in our Instagram. We have Brian, who is our secret weapon. Julie started calling him that, I don't know, forever ago.Julie: Because he is.Meagan: He really is. He has proven it. So we today are going to be recording an episode about Brian. Brian is the voice of our intro on our podcast. Review of the WeekMeagan: We have a review, and Julie is the best review reader. We all know this. I can't read.Julie: Oh my gosh.Meagan: She can. So Julie, go ahead and read your review. I hope you picked a big one. I think strategically, you probably pick the big ones knowing that I can't read them.Julie: Yeah. That's exactly what I do, actually. I pick the bigger ones and leave the smaller ones for you.Meagan: I always hope. I always hope.Julie: We have so many. I don't even think we are going to get through them all, so I am trying to pick more recent ones because I know that you pick older ones and so I feel like maybe we have a little bit of both worlds in our review reading. All right. This review is from Apple Podcasts and it's from carrie.vic so we can totally Facebook stalk her if necessary.Her title is, “OMG, the best VBAC resource out there” and then she says, “Thank you so much to Julie and Meagan for this podcast! I began listening to it right after my C-section in August 2018. Then, when I found out I was pregnant in June 2020, I re-listened to every episode. So. Much. Information. So much positivity and hope. I had my VBAC on 02/11”That was just this year.“and I don't think I could have done it without The VBAC Link. This podcast helped me ensure I had the most supportive birth team and provider, provided so much useful information, and all of these mamas made me truly believe in my capability to do this!“Thank you, thank you, thank you a million! Sending so much love to all you mamas out there! ❤️”I love the heart emojis. I love the reviews. I love carrie.vic from Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much and congratulations on your VBAC.Meagan: Yay. Congrats, congrats. I love when we hear the reviews and we don't have to go stalk them. So if you leave a review or if you have left us a review and then gone on to have your baby, let us know how things are going because we kind of stalk you on Facebook, not on Facebook Facebook but on our Facebook community to see because we love following up and hearing about the stories. So leave us a review and if you have already had your baby, drop us an email or tag us on Facebook and let us know.Julie: Yeah, because we really need closure on these things. Like the ones from last year that you read, I'm like, “Oh my gosh, they had their baby eight months ago. I don't know what happened.” Closure is always good.Meagan: Okay, without further ado, we are going to have Brian give us the intro.Brian: All right, here comes the music. You are tuned into The VBAC Link podcast with Julie Francom and Meagan Heaton, VBAC moms, doulas, and educators here to help you get inspired for birth after having had a C-section. Together they have created a robust VBAC preparation course, along with this uplifting podcast, for women who are preparing for their VBAC. Although these episodes are VBAC specific, they encourage expectant moms to listen and educate themselves on how to avoid a Cesarean from the get-go. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. It is not meant to replace advice from any other qualified medical professional. Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan after we hear from today's sponsor.Julie: “Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan”Meagan: Yay. I love it.Julie: I love it. Brian is amazing. I call him “our secret weapon” because he is our very first person that we ever paid to do anything from The VBAC Link. He literally saved my life because when we first started, I was editing our podcast episodes using a free program that I downloaded, and every Tuesday night I would be in a rush trying to get-- I'd spend two hours editing, and trying to crop out “um's” everywhere, and putting the intro and the exit there, and get it in the right spot, and get it uploaded, and get everything posted in time for our Wednesday podcast runs, and then Meagan connected us with Brian.Meagan, you're going to have to tell the story because I don't even remember how you guys met. But then he literally saved two hours of my week and that's why he is our secret weapon. But not only that, he is our video guy. He records the videos for our courses and we also give him a whole bunch of random audio/video stuff to do here and there for us. So he is called “our secret weapon” because he saved our lives and we want to keep him nice, quietly tucked away in our own little package so nobody else can use him because he is ours.Meagan: Brian, you belong to us.Brian: Yep.Julie: We will lock you in a dungeon with a computer and some audio equipment just in case you ever decide you want to stop editing.Brian: And honestly Julie, what you described Julie, just cutting out the um's-- that's pretty much what I do. That's the bulk of it because there are so many, really.Julie: Yeah, because me and Meagan don't know how to not say “um.”Brian: Well, I mean, everybody says “um”.Julie: I know.Brian: It's just a natural, normal part of speaking, but when you're trying to present it as a podcast, you want to sound as pro as you can. And cutting out those “um's” is working towards that goal.Meagan: Yes.Julie: Yeah, and then not saying “um” is another step.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah.Julie: Maybe when we are grown up we will stop saying “um”.Meagan: It's seriously one of the most, it's one of the hardest things for me. What's funny though is I don't recognize myself saying “um” or “uhh” but I totally recognize anybody else saying “um”. I'm like, “Oh my gosh that person says--” like I recognize “um's” more, but in myself, I don't. I don't know why that's a problem.Julie: Until Brian sends us a message that says, “You guys are saying ‘um' a lot more than usual. Just pay attention.”Meagan: “Can you guys drop the ‘um's?”Julie: And then we are texting each other during podcast episodes and saying, “Oh my gosh I am saying ‘um' so much.” No, but I have learned that I replace that with “so”.Brian: Uh-huh, or “and”.Julie: Yeah. And “and”. Yeah, and “so”. That's awesome.Brian: And that's okay. That's okay too.Julie: Yeah. So let's get going. Um, we-- see? There I did. Oh my gosh, I just said it.Brian: Yep.Julie: You'll probably have to edit that out.Brian: I'll leave that one in.Julie: Yeah, you can leave that one in because, um-- oh my gosh. Now I am going to be so hyperaware. Oh, this is not going to go well.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay, so I was just reflecting back on how I got a hold of Brian and I feel like-- okay. So I had a client who, crazy enough, yeah. Anyway. So I had a client and he does video and then his wife does sound. I asked her, I sent her a text or something. I was like, “Hey, do you know about anybody or do you know anybody?” And she was like, “Yeah.” I can't remember if she sent Brian to me directly or if she sent me to someone else, but I'm pretty sure she sent--Brian: You're talking about Michaela, right?Meagan: Michaela, yeah.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: Michaela knew you, right? I thought she sent me directly to you. She was like, “Yeah. I know someone.”Brian: Yeah, because I work at the NPR station here in Salt Lake City and Michaela does as well. She is a weekender and that's how I know her. She still does work there and I still do work there so we still do know each other.Meagan: Yes, yes.Brian: And so she approached me and she asked me if I was interested in helping out some friends of hers start a podcast or do a podcast or something. I don't know if she just didn't have the details or just didn't give me the details, but I had no idea what anything was about. I just knew it was something about audio editing and a podcast and I said, “Yeah, sure.” I love doing audio and I love helping people if I can pursue what they want to pursue. If I can help out, I will help out. Especially when it comes out to audio stuff because I've been doing audio forever. And so I said, “Yeah. Throw them at me. Give them my email. Whatever happens, happens.” And that just got the ball rolling.Julie: And then you became our secret weapon.Meagan: Yeah. She sent me your email. That's right. I was like, “I was pretty sure it was direct.” And then I sent it to you. I remember emailing you and it was such a big step for Julie and I because Julie was our editor before and she did a wonderful job, but she was tired of it. And we are not professional. We are not professional. It's not easy.Julie: It was so much work. Oh, well and Brian can edit a podcast episode in 30 minutes that takes me two hours to do.Meagan: Unless we say “um” all the time and then it's two hours. But yeah. But no, it was just such, I don't know. The stars aligned so perfectly. I will forever be grateful for her and we are forever grateful for you, Brian, and we are so excited that you are with us.Brian: And that was when? That was the fall of 2018?Meagan: Two years, mhmm.Julie: Yeah. Right about that.Brian: And you hadn't done too many episodes before I came on board, right?Julie: I think we were 30 episodes in.Meagan: I was going to say, I think it was 30 or 40.Brian: Wow.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: We really hadn't done that many and they were a mess.Julie: Brian was like, “You guys really need to find a studio and I actually know one that might be available.”Meagan: Yeah. He's like, “You need to have better audio.” So it's just been so awesome and then we were like, “Oh, we are going to do this online course. Hey Brian, do you know how-to video?” “Yeah.”Brian: “Yeah.”Meagan: And you guys, he spent an entire Sunday--Julie: It was like, 10 hours.Meagan: Yeah. With us in an empty duplex sitting there as we were just talking about-- like seriously, yeah. It was amazing and yeah. I am so grateful for you.Brian: And actually, videoing is the easy part. It's all the editing and post-production that takes forever.Julie: And so you know so much about birth, and Cesareans, and VBAC--Brian: And do you want to know? The funny thing is when I started editing the podcast, I, first of all, didn't know it was a birth thing.(Meagan and Julie laughing)It was just a podcast. Seriously, I had no idea--Meagan: He didn't know.Brian: --what it was about until I heard the first audio. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a doula was. I had to look that stuff up.Julie: And now you know way more than you ever thought you would know about birth.Brian: Oh, I know way more than I thought I would ever know.Julie: Probably way more than you would ever care to know.Meagan: You could be a doula, Brian.Julie: I want to read your bio really fast.Brian: Oh, go for it.Julie: You wrote out a really well-thought-out bio and I want to read it because I think it is transitioning to what we are talking about right now, but I want you guys to know a little bit more about Brian and then we can talk some more, and share some really embarrassing stories, and all that fun stuff.But Brian is a SoCal native which-- I did not know that about you. Meagan probably did. Meagan is a bigger people person than I am. But you moved to Salt Lake City in the summer of 2015. You are a lifelong musician and we have seen some of your stuff on YouTube. It's pretty amazing. You have been an audio engineer since the early 90s. You worked in radio, big-time nationally syndicated stuff as well as small-time local stuff as an engineer and on-air host since the mid-90s. He is currently an on-air host at 90.1 KUER NPR Utah, headquartered in Salt Lake City, heard throughout Utah, and video editor in marketing at Salt Lake community college. I did not know that either.You run Humorless Productions. That's his business name. Remote audio, video recording, and post-production, primarily concert recordings, primarily noisy undergroundy, aggressive, electronic music. Obviously, not recording too many concerts these days. You are an avid skier. I did know that. Avid road bicyclist-- also knew that, and hard-core introvert. Also knew that.And let me tell you, people, Brian‘s never married and has no kids. Brian is such-- this is why I call him “our secret weapon”, right? He literally edits a birth podcast. He has never had kids. He has never seen somebody or helped somebody have a baby, but he is sitting over here being the biggest trooper for us. He came to our first birthday party and took pictures with us in our little made-up photo booth. He is just always so willing to help out and is just so-- I don't know. I just think you are a good-quality, genuine guy. They just don't make people like you anymore. I don't know if that makes sense.Brian: Well, if you think about it though, if you put yourself in my position, I mean, I don't really have to know anything about birth specifically. I'm just doing the audio.Julie: That's true.Brian: You know? I just pull it up on my computer and put it in my editing program and start editing. At that point it's not about birth, it's about audio and it's about making the people sound good.Julie: Which you do a great job of.Brian: So the podcast could be about anything and I'm still going to do the same process.Meagan: Right.Julie: Yes.Meagan: But at the same time, you are so willing to go the extra mile to do so many other things. In fact, even wearing your “Don't get all up in my perineum” shirt.Julie: “Don't be all up in my perineum.”Brian: The perineum shirt.Julie: Actually, can we talk about that shirt? I'm going to have that available in our VBAC Link shop. So if you go to thevbaclink.com/shop, you can see exactly what we are talking about and buy your own. “Don't be all up in my perineum” shirt straight from our VBAC shop. So by the time this episode airs, I will have it up there and live for you. I am pretty sure we can include a picture of Brian rocking it. In fact, that might just be our main product image.Meagan: Yes. Yes. I love it. Okay so, Brian. What got you into-- I mean, you've been doing this for such a long time. What sparked your interest in this? Like as a kid, what did you do as a kid? Did you want to do stuff like this as a kid? Like in editing and audio and video and all that?Brian: No, I mean, as a kid, like as a teenager, I would ride my bike around the neighborhood or ride my bike just as much as I could, so that's always been a lifelong thing. I started playing guitar at 12 or 13 years old and that pretty much instantly became my main focus forever. I wasn't good at it instantly. I wasn't a prodigy, but I got fairly good at it in some short amount of time. I was sort of a natural musician. It was just a language that I understood.Meagan: Yeah, it just came to you.Brian: It just kept going and going from there. I was in bands back in the 80s which-- we didn't go anywhere. We didn't record anything. But I was always playing and I was always getting better. Eventually, the first thing I did out of high school was, I went to a guitar school in Hollywood. It's the premier West Coast guitar school via Musicians Institute and the Guitar Institute of Technology. I graduated in 1990 and from there, that's what got me interested in audio. In playing guitar, and playing with bands, and playing with other people and recording as well, I was interested to know how exactly. You know, you mic up a guitar and why does it sound different if you put the mic here or if you put the mic here? Or if you use this microphone or that microphone? I was interested in that sort of stuff. I just dove into it headfirst while all along being a musician, but also being interested in audio.Once I eventually went to proper college, I was a music major at first, but then I switched to audio engineering and graduated as an audio engineering major. That was in the mid-90s. That's when I started in radio. I eventually did my own music shows in LA and I was an engineer for some big radio shows in LA. It all just came together and that's how it's been since then.Meagan: That's awesome. I didn't know that about you.Julie: Yeah. You're pretty good at it. You've got a natural talent.Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh.Julie: Alright.Brian: Isn't that what they say about kids? Because I'm a middle kid. I have an older brother and a younger brother.Julie: Aw, that makes sense too.Brian: Isn't the middle kid supposed to be the artsy one?Meagan: You know, my middle kid is. She is very artsy. I mean she seriously, she was 18 months old and I remember we were in this group of people and there were some coloring books. She sat down and started coloring and this lady was like, “Oh my gosh” because she was color blending and coloring in the lines so perfectly. She was like, “What in the deal?” And then now, she can just look at something and she just draws it. And she's like, “Look, this is--”. The other day, she brought home-- it was Cat in the Hat, Dr. Seuss's birthday, or whatever, and she brings me this Cat in the Hat picture. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” She is so good that way, and then she is really good in the arts like dance, and music, and things like that. She is really good at the piano and she is six. So, yeah. I would say my middle kid is good at it.Brian: Cool.Julie: I have two middle kids and I would say my third is definitely the more artsy one. But again, they are three, four, six, and seven. My seven-year-old has really mild cerebral palsy so he has always hated handwriting. He's always hated coloring because it's hard for him because of his right hand. It's his right side that is affected. He's not severely disabled or anything. It's really, really mild cerebral palsy, but it affects his right extremities and so he is forced to be left-handed when his brain operates in a right-handed way. He's never been good at that type of thing. I wonder if that's true. I don't know. We will see. We will see as my kids get older I suppose.Meagan: So tell us something else unique that no one would know about you that we don't even know.Julie: Yeah. Behind the scenes.Brian: About me?Meagan: Yeah, because you are. Like we said, you are just like this secret weapon. You just have all of these hidden talents. What is something that you-- I don't know. What is something secret?Brian: Well, I have a good one. I don't know if I have told you before, but I lived-- so I am from Southern California. That's what I say. That is the short answer. But the long answer is I was born in San Diego and I grew up in San Diego. But I lived all of my adult life in LA and so LA feels more like my home, which sounds sort of weird than San Diego, but if you press me, if you asked me where my home city is, I will say LA. But then, I also moved to Austria twice.Julie: What?Brian: Yeah. I lived there for most of 2005 and then I moved back to LA, and then I moved back to Austria from late 2009 to late 2010, so another year there for no reason. It wasn't a work thing. It wasn't for anything, I just wanted to live there. So twice, I sold all my stuff and quit all my jobs, and moved.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Julie: Oh, to be free.Meagan: That's amazing. That's amazing.Brian: Yeah. I didn't really know the language too much. I mean, I took some classes beforehand just so I was a little bit familiar, but I went over there and that's actually where Humorless Productions started my mobile audio/video recording system. That's where I really cut my teeth because there were so many more shows over there at that time that I could record as opposed to LA, at least for the music that I was interested in recording. And so I went over there, and I brought some equipment, and I would record all sorts of shows every month. It wasn't easy, but I worked out a system. It's evolved over the years and now I have a really good system.Actually, the first time I lived in Austria was in Vienna. The second time I lived there was Linz, which is a smaller town about an hour and a half west of Vienna. But if you really asked me if there's anywhere in the world that feels more like home than anything else, I would say it's Austria.Meagan: Really?Brian: Yeah. I have five more friends even today in Austria than I do in the States.Meagan: Wow.Julie: That is super cool.Brian: Yeah.Julie: Gosh, I used to travel so much when I was single. I guess maybe it was because I was in the military. I lived in a couple of different places and then once or twice a year before I got married, I would just travel somewhere on a plane. I was just talking to Nick the other night about this and I just miss that so much. You know, you get married, and you have kids, and you're just stuck forever until your kids get old enough to travel with you. I love that.Brian: And actually when I was over there, I wasn't really intent on traveling or going around, but that just ended up where the shows were that I would record. Vienna is fairly centrally located, so I would hop on a train and go up to Prague, or Budapest, or to Venice, or to Zurich, or to Munich, or to Berlin, or wherever. So it was all sorts of fun.Meagan: That's awesome. So cool. Yep. I did not know that.Julie: Yeah. I did not know that either.Q&AMeagan: So I posted on our Instagram what questions people have for you and a couple have come in. Can I ask them to you?Julie: Yeah.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: One, what is the most interesting thing you have learned from this podcast?Brian: I've learned all sorts of stuff. What's the most interesting thing? I don't know the most interesting thing.Meagan: What's something that stands out to you that you've learned? Obviously, you learned what a VBAC is in general.Brian: Yes, in general.Julie: Maybe if somebody asked you, what is The VBAC Link? What would you say?Brian: Well, here's the thing. For anybody listening, Julie and Meagan don't necessarily want you to have a VBAC. They want you to have the birth that you want. If you want a Cesarean, that's super great. More power to you. The thing is, you're going to learn stuff. Even if you do a Cesarean, you will learn stuff for your pregnancy that will benefit you if you listen to this podcast. If you are a first-time mother, you will benefit. You will learn stuff from this podcast. It doesn't matter if you have never had a Cesarean, doesn't matter if you have never had a vaginal birth. There is just so much good information that you will learn in this podcast.Meagan: I would agree. So another question is, do you share what you have learned with any expectant parents in your life?Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. Thanks for that Brian. That was really nice of you to say. I really like that.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: That really was.Julie: Thank you.Meagan: So to me, Brian, you just answered it a little bit, right? Because that's one of the most interesting things you have maybe learned, right? We're pro VBAC, obviously. That's why we are here and that's why we created the course, and the podcast, and the blogs, and all of that jazz, but you nailed it. It's not that we want you to have your VBAC. It's that we want you to have the birth experience that you want, whether that be a VBAC or not. So I totally love that so much and that seems like the answer to me too. Maybe it's not the most interesting, but it is something that you have definitely taken away and realized that through editing our podcast, that's what we are here for. That is exactly what we are here for is to help these people get the birth that they desire no matter what that may look like to them.Brian: And one other thing, it might sound like not the best way to say this, but a lot of these women who come on the podcast have learned lessons the hard way. They want to share their experiences of learning things the hard way so that other women don't have to learn the hard way themselves. You know? You never ever want to say, “Well, I told you so I told you so,” but I think that's one of the best things about this show is that women don't have to go through all the trauma and all the pain that these other women have gone through, not unnecessarily. You know how birth goes. You never can plan it out 100%.Julie: You know how birth goes now.Brian: Yeah, more than I used to.Meagan: Yeah, and I love that. Yeah. I don't think it was saying it like that or anything. It's true. We have all learned things in hard ways a lot of the time and that for sure was me with my second provider. I didn't switch and I learned the hard way to follow my gut. I didn't follow it the first time. I had to follow it the second time. I am glad that I did so I had the outcome and the experience that I had. So, yeah. I love that.Do you share what you have learned through this podcast with expectant parents in your life? Do you have many expectant parents in your life?Brian: Yeah, I would in a heartbeat. I have only had one friend who had a kid last year sometime in 2020 and I definitely recommended it to her when she was pregnant. I said, “Hey if you want to learn some stuff, listen to this podcast.” I don't know what her plans were as far as her birth plans, but yeah. I said, “There is all sorts of stuff that you will learn listening to this podcast.”Meagan: That's awesome.Brian: And she was a first-time mom.Meagan: Yeah. I know, I think that's something that is so interesting. A lot of the times it's like, “Oh, I have had a VBAC so I don't need to listen to that,” but really like you said, the first-time parents can almost learn just as much, if not more, than the people who have had Cesareans. Right?Brian: I mean, how many episodes do you have on the pelvic floor? That is something that every first-time mother can use.Julie: Yeah. At least four I think.Meagan: Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah. And chiropractic care and working through your fear.Brian: Yep.Julie: And big babies.Meagan: Oh yeah and big babies. Things like that and learning what is evidence-based. You know, we really focus on a lot of evidence-based. So yeah. I love that. I love that you referred us. Thank you for referring us. Do you know how her birth turned out?Brian: I don't know.Meagan: Did she talk to you about that? Most people, probably not.Brian: She hasn't talked to me about it. I've seen pictures of the baby on Facebook and everything looks like it's rolling just perfectly.Meagan: Going really well. That's awesome.Brian: Yep.Meagan: So you said you have two siblings. You are the middle child. Did you say, two brothers?Brian: Yes.Meagan: Are they married?Brian: Both of them are. Older brother has no kids. Younger brother has two kids.Meagan: Oh awesome. Do you know how his wife's experiences went?Brian: I don't know. I haven't asked her.Meagan: Right. It's not really something you probably would. I was just so curious if now--Brian: I mean, I don't think she'd hesitate to tell me if I asked because she's an adult. I'm an adult. Yeah. But I just haven't asked.Meagan: Yeah. Okay, what other questions do you have, Julie? Or what else do you want to tell us, Brian?Julie: I mean, I guess unless you want to embarrass us or roast us, I am so disappointed that there is not going to be any roasting. Throw us under the bus. What kind of dirt do you got on us? Tell the whole world.Brian: I don't have anything embarrassing about you. I have something embarrassing about me.Julie: Okay sure.Meagan: That's the thing is, I want to know more about you. I want this episode to be about you. So tell everyone about you.Brian: Well, here's one thing. First of all, I said in my bio there that I am a hard-core introvert and that's 100% true. This story sort of reflects that a little bit. It was when I first started the podcast. I think I had met Julie and I had met Meagan maybe once. I forget. Maybe not at all at this point, but one of you called me. I forget who it was. One of you called me on some afternoon and just wanted to say, “Hi. I just wanted to chat on the phone for a little bit.”Julie: That was definitely Meagan. I don't do things like that.Meagan: Probably me.Brian: I felt so bad because when you called me, I was at the main library and I couldn't really take a call. I couldn't really talk but I was totally whispering. I felt bad because I wanted to talk. I wanted to say “hi” but I was just not in a position where I could do any of that because there were people all around, and I was in the middle of something, and you can't make a whole lot of noise in the library. And so the call ended up being 30 seconds. It was like, “Yeah, hi. Thanks. Okay. That's cool. Okay, bye.” That was more impersonal than I usually am. You know, in the first place, I really am not the most personable person. I am not friendly at first.Meagan: Really? I think you were. You were friendly.Brian: But I felt bad about that call. But now we all hang out and we are all cool.Meagan: Yes. Now it's like, “Brian!”Julie: COVID has put a serious cramp in our style. We don't get to see you anymore.Meagan: I know.Brian: Yeah.Julie: One day. One day, maybe.Meagan: I know. COVID. Darn COVID. How've you been during COVID Brian? What have you been up to during it?Brian: It's been pretty great for me. I call it “working from home”, but at the same time I have been an essential worker at both of my jobs, and so I have really not changed my schedule at all too much. But it's been great for me as an introvert because everybody else in the office doesn't show up. They are all working from home.Julie: So you get to be all alone and enjoy being an introvert.Brian: So at both of my jobs, I pretty much have the whole building to myself. I can work at my own pace and I can play music as loud as I want. So it's been okay.Meagan: That's good. Have you taken on any side projects or anything other than everything that we send you?Julie: Everything that we send you?Brian: Everything you throw at me? No, not really. I mean, I have all my regular stuff. I have about a dozen blogs and a dozen side projects. I have always a thousand music projects at home which don't really have a deadline, so I have a mountain of stuff I can always work on. Sometimes I get to it. Sometimes I don't. Right now it is ski season, so I am skiing every Saturday and every Sunday for months on end. I am working both my jobs quite a lot these days so I don't have much time to do much of anything.Meagan: Where do you like to ski, Brian?Brian: Well, living here in Salt Lake City is pretty much the center of the universe. We have all sorts of good skiing here. I have one of those multi-resort passes so I have gone to Big Sky Montana this year. I've gone to Steamboat Springs this year. I actually have weekends coming up for both of those coming up shortly. I don't think I will hit Jackson Hole this year. I don't think I will hit Sun Valley this year. I don't think I will hit Aspen this year, but I have skied all over the West Coast.Meagan: What's your favorite resort here in Utah? What resort would you suggest of someone to come to Utah and try out?Julie: Megan is our skier. She probably wants to go catch you on the slopes one day.Meagan: Yeah.Brian: It's probably not the one that most people would come up with as the number one resort here in Salt Lake City at least, but I go to Snow Basin.Meagan: Snow Basin is awesome.Julie: I like Snow Basin.Meagan: That's the first place I go.Brian: At least for me. I was going to say, Snow Basin is better than any of the four here close to town. We have Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude. But Snow Basin is the one I prefer. Just got the best terrain for me. I am an advanced skier. I've been skiing my whole life.↔Julie: You got a lot of that in SoCal huh? Just kidding. I'm sure the slopes were amazing in Austria.Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I went skiing at St, Anton in the alps for a week. I skied Kitzbühel.Julie: Aw, what a dream.Brian: I skied the racecourse. The Hahnenkamm racecourse at Kitzbühel a week before the race. It was the day before they actually shut down the course for the race, which was totally cool. So I skied the Hahnenkamm in Austria.Julie: That's pretty cool.Meagan: That's super cool. I just started skiing this year.Brian: Really?Julie: Did you? For some reason, I thought you've been skiing for a while. I used to snowboard back in the day when I was cool and now I'm just a boring mom. I still have my snowboarding boots. I used to go to Brighton because it was the cheapest one. You could buy a half-day pass for only three of the lifts and it was only $40 instead of having to pay $90 for a full resort pass and so me and my friend would go up almost every weekend. We would go boarding and then we would go to the Porcupine Grill at the face of the canyon afterward and have nachos and hot chocolate which you wouldn't think go together but after you go snowboarding, they definitely do go together.Meagan: Oh wow. That's in my neighborhood. Yeah. No, I actually begged to snowboard as a kid. I begged my mom every year. “Mom, I want to snowboard. I want to snowboard” and she was like, “Nope, nope, nope. Too dangerous. Too dangerous” and refused. And so this year for Christmas, my husband surprised us with also a multi-pass and said, “We are--” because you guys probably know I hate winter. I hate it. I hate it. I hate being cold. I like being at the pool feeling the sun and going outside on hikes, and sports, and obviously, as of last year I really took up cycling, and so I just like to be on my bike. So yeah. “We are going to make your winter better.” I will just tell you right now, if you haven't ever skied before and you have snow In your area and you are listening, go skiing. It has changed my winter life completely. So I love that you ski, Brian. I always remember we would always try to get the podcast recorded at the end of December, or really November, so we weren't driving in the winter and we would try to get enough through February because we were like, “We don't want to drive to the studio in winter.”Julie: The studio is an hour away from my house. In some of the snowstorms, it took me two hours to get home, and then there was that one time Meagan made me run out of gas on the freeway.Meagan: Yes.Julie: That was at midnight. It was awful.Meagan: Yeah. We were recording with Brian. This is how much of a champ Brian is. He would literally stay with us at the studio until 11:30 PM. It's insane what this man does for us. So we just are overly grateful for you. But I always remember he was telling me-- I swear there was two years or something that you were like, “Yeah. I'm going to Jackson this week.” And you would go and ski in Jackson. It's one of my dreams to go and ski because we have a cabin there and now that I ski, I want to go skiing there because I have heard it's amazing. I've also heard it's pretty steep though. Is it steep?Brian: Great one. Yeah. They have something for everybody.Meagan: Good, because I am still not as advanced or confident. My husband says I am a really really good skier. I just lack confidence.Julie: We need to get your confidence for skiing just like we want people to have their confidence for birth.Meagan: I know. Okay, one last thing. What advice would you give to parents listening to the podcast? What do you feel is one of the most important takeaways from listening to all of the stories?Brian: The biggest takeaway, and it's the most obvious thing in the world. Birth is not easy. It is a monumental challenge. You can only be as prepared as you can. You could write down every single thing that you think is going to be a part of your birth plan and both Julie and Meagan will tell you there is not a single birth plan in the existence of the history of the universe that didn't go 100% according to that birth plan. There's always going to be some curveball in there that you were not prepared for. It's impossible to prepare. You can't prepare for absolutely everything. You can make a birth plan. You can make a backup plan. You can make a backup backup plan. The best thing you can do is just learn, research as much as you can, listen to the podcast, I don't know what else to tell you. You can't be prepared for everything but you can just try.Julie: And trust your intuition.Brian: Yeah. And the other thing is that-- I'm sure you've said this Meagan or Julie in the past on one of your episodes and I know it's easy for me to say, “Well, keep this in mind.” But keep in mind that you are the mother. You are in charge. All the nurses, doctors, the providers-- they can tell you, “Okay. We need to do this,” and if that doesn't line up with your birth plan, you say, “No, wait a second. I am doing it this way.”Julie: Boom.Brian: “I'm doing it this way.” You say it twice. You say it loud if you need to. “I'm doing it this way.” And if they say, “Okay. We'll work with this.” It might get to a point where they say, “You know what? This is medically unsafe or medically unwise.” At that point, you say, “Okay. I will listen to what you have to say.” Otherwise, you are saying, “I'm doing it this way. I'm doing it my way.”Meagan: Yeah. And it's okay to say, “Why is this medically unwise?” It's okay to question that.Brian: Yeah. You are in charge. Not them.Julie: Love it.Meagan: Okay. You're awesome, Brian. We love you. We love you so much.Julie: Yep. Don't ever go anywhere. We are going to keep you forever as our secret weapon. Our not-so-secret weapon anymore but I am still going to call you our secret weapon.Brian: Awesome. Okay.Meagan: If you ever decide to go back to Austria, are you still going to stay with us, or are you going to be like, “Peace out Meagan and Julie?”Brian: Well I mean, we haven't actually ever been in the same building for a year now.Julie: Yeah, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter where he lives.Brian: And we're still making a podcast, so whether I'm in Salt Lake City or in Vienna, we can still work it out.Julie: Boom.Meagan: Perfect. All right, okay. Well, if you guys want to know more about Brian after this episode, message us and we will get your answers. And Brian, seriously, you are just a miracle in our lives. So, we love you. We appreciate you. Thanks for joining us today and telling us more that we didn't know about you. And for the ski trips.Brian: Totally awesome.Julie: Wonderful.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

I had the honor to interview Brian Bogert who for me, is a real life superhero in a sense. He has dealt with his share of adversity and he continues to brush himself off while continuing to bust through barriers to create his best self. I admire all that he has accomplished in his life and he's here to help other accomplish the same and more. He goal to impact over a billion people is lofty yet if there is anyone who can do, I'm putting my money on Brian. This was a special episode as Brian was so gracious and share so much and sometimes the conversation gave me a lump in my throat as we went deep. I sure hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did creating it with Brian. Thanks for listening! Much love, Joe Brian Bogert: Human Behavior and Performance Coach, Keynote Speaker, YouTuber, Podcaster and Course Creator Founder - Brian Bogert Companies Website: https://brianbogert.com/ No Limits: https://brianbogert.com/no-limits/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bogertbrian/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bogertbrian YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmhaMgY8q-tMMCj0rpGg7iw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-brian-bogert-companies/ Email: info@brianbogert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, I want to welcome my guests, Mr. Brian Boger. Brian, welcome.   Brian: What's up, Joe, I love I love that shirt you're rockin no limits, soldier, right there. I   Joe: Hey,   Brian: Love it.   Joe: There you go. You know what? So since we're talking about the shirt, we've brought it up. Explain to me the purpose behind this shirt. I know that you give all the money away to   Brian: One hundred   Joe: Charity.   Brian: Percent of the proceeds, huh? Yeah, so I'll first describe kind of what no limits is just high level and then we'll talk about kind of where this is. No limits is is part of our branding. And it's this belief that I genuinely feel like we all can live with no limits. It's not that we're unlimited and we can do anything we want. It's that we can live significantly beyond the limits we place on ourselves and certainly be on the way the world has placed limits on us. And so that infinity sign, there's a lot of intentionality around it, which is really about awareness and intentionality and how those weave together to help us find who we are so we can live with no limits with our life in alignment. And so as we've been building this brand, there's always been this altruistic philanthropic side of me. Everything I do and desire for me to be financially successful is also for my ability to distribute that wealth back out into the community. So when we had an opportunity that people started to really attach to the brand and what they were doing were like, you know what, let's make some apparel. And we've got, I think, five different t shirt designs, both in men and women. We actually also have a dog design, too. I'll explain that in a second.   Brian: But the reason we did it is one hundred percent just to allow people to attach to it. You see, there's not Brian Bogot companies and stuff written all over it. Right? It's really the infinity in no limits and embedding people in that. And one hundred percent of the proceeds are going to nonprofits that we're going to rotate on a quarterly basis. And so, you know, it's just another cool way. You know, I'm not gonna make a bunch of money off t shirts. That wasn't something that needed to move the needle. But, you know, people can attach to the brand and feel like they're doing something better. Their investments also helping more lives. And a big part of who I am, I'm on a mission to impact a billion lives by twenty, forty five. This is just another way to perpetuate that. The dog shirts are that we're an animal family and my wife is like obsessed with them. And she's like, we can't have apparel without matching dog apparel, which just saw me die laughing because I still think it's so ridiculous. But I love my wife to death and every time my animals wear clothing, it just makes me laugh. But it's been cool because, yeah, those are those who go to support our local Humane Society and ASPCA as well. So some of the proceeds.   Joe: That's great. Yeah, and it's a beautiful shirt. I'm always nervous about when you can't you can't feel it first, but when I took it out, I was like, I don't know. I've been in the gym a lot lately. I might be a little a little too big for him. It's like fit perfect. It makes me actually look better than I should look. So I   Brian: Well,   Joe: Appreciate   Brian: You know,   Joe: It.   Brian: I'm super anal about t shirts as well, so I'm actually happy that he said that because I before we ever posted them, before we started selling them, we actually tested a bunch of shirts. And I wanted to make sure that they fit and they felt like I like shirts to fit. Not that that means everybody else needs to like what I like. But I've had so many other t shirts and different apparel that they just don't fit right in. You never wear it. And I'm like, if I if I'm going to buy something for my own brand or have something for somebody else, I want something that people feel comfortable in.   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: So   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: I'm   Joe: So   Brian: Happy that you feel that way.   Joe: Yeah, and besides wearing it out like normal, like this with her jeans and whatever, I definitely am going to get some more because I think it's cool and it'll be a gym shirt for me. And then I think people will come to me and go, that's cool, what is that? And then send more people your way. So that's my goal.   Brian: I'm so grateful, yeah, for the gym one, you're going to get one of those embrace pain to avoid suffering shirts. That's   Joe: There you go. That's   Brian: That's   Joe: Right,   Brian: That's that's the motto in the gym that's   Joe: That's   Brian: Going to help push you, man.   Joe: Right. All right, deal. So I always I know you've told your story a zillion times, I'm sure. And I want you to tell as much or as little as you want to bring us up to today. So however, you can kind of let the audience   Brian: All   Joe: Know. Yeah.   Brian: Hold it a million times, so I feel like I know the points I want to hit, so I'll just I'll just run with it. I'm going to ask you and anybody who's listening, unless they're driving to just close your eyes for just one second. And I want you to imagine going to a store, having a successful shopping trip, heading back out to your car. And it's a beautiful day. And you think you're just going on with the rest of your life like it was just any other normal shopping trip. And then you get to your car and you turn your head and you see a truck barreling 40 miles an hour right at you with no time to react. Go and open your eyes. That's where this portion of my story begins. My mom, my brother and I went to our local Wal-Mart to get a one inch paint brush. And anybody who's known me followed me or even in the few minutes we've been talking can probably tell. I've always had a lot of energy. It's the first one of the car and not a surprise to my mom because I want to get home and put that paint brush to use. You know, this is back in the days, though, before they had key fobs. So I had to literally wait for my mom and brother to close the gap of those four or five feet, catch up, stick the key in the door and unlock it to get on the other way.   Brian: And as it happened, the truck pulls up in front of the store and a driver, a middle passenger, get out. And the passenger all the way to the right felt the truck moving backwards. So he did what any one of us would do, Joe, and he screwed up and put his foot on the brake instead of the gas combination of shock and forced Zoom up onto the steering wheel, up onto the dashboard. And before you know it, he's catapulting across the parking lot 40 miles an hour right at us with no time to react. Now, we were in that spot, so we went up into the median, went up to the car in the median, ultimately knocked me to the ground, ran over me diagonally, tore my spleen, left the tire tracks, scar on my stomach and continued on to completely sever my left arm from my body. So there I am laying on the parking lot on one hundred and fifty three day in Phoenix, Arizona, my mom and brother just watched the whole thing happen and they look up and they see my arm 10 feet away. Fortunately for me, so did my guardian angel. She saw the whole thing take place, she was a nurse that walked out of the store right when this happened.   Brian: She saw the literal life and limb scenario in front of her and she rushed immediately into action. She focused on life. First, she came over and stopped the bleeding and she saved my life. And then she instructed some innocent bystanders to run inside, grab a cooler filled with ice and get my detached limb on ice within minutes. Had she not done one or both of those things, I either wouldn't be here with you today or I'd be here with you today with the cleaned up stop. That's just the facts, right? So I will expedite a whole lot of the rest of that particular story. We can dig deeper if you want to. But as you can imagine, there was years of recovery that came from this. Twenty four surgeries and a whole lot of lessons and observations. What I've definitely learned is that I have an extremely unique story. I'm sure that your listeners weren't expecting it to go there today. But what I've also realized is that we actually all have unique stories. And what's important is that we pause and become aware of the lessons we can extract from those stories and then become intentional. How do we apply to our lives? And we all have the ability to do that. We also all have the ability to tap into the collective wisdom of other people's stories, to shorten our own curve, to learn something to share with you two primary ones.   Brian: And then we'll just see where the conversation goes. The first is I learned not to get stuck by what has happened to me, but instead get moved by what I can do with it, and the second I didn't realize until far later. I was a kid. I was seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old when I was going through the meat of all of this. Yes, I was the one doing the the therapy. Yes, I was the one having the surgeries done to me. But I was also being guided through the process. So I was a little bit in a fog. My parents, however, were not they were intimately aware of the unceasing medical treatments, years of therapy and the idea of seeing their son grow up without the use of his left arm was a source of great potential suffering for them. So they willed themselves day in and day out to do what was necessary. It was tough to embrace the pains required to ultimately strengthen and heal me. So whether it was intentional or not, what they did was they ingrained in me a philosophy and a way of living which I embody and everything I do now, which was to embrace pain, to avoid suffering. And I believe when that's done right, that's also where we gain freedom.   Brian: So it's these concepts that I use to not only become this unique injury, but how my business partners and I scaled our last business to 15 million with the span of a decade. And now how is a human behavior performance coach and entrepreneur? I flip that on its head. You will have individuals and organizations just like you, just like the people listening, become more aware, more intentional, and who they already are, their most authentic selves. You see, I believe that's when magic starts to happen and the door starts to crack to perspective, motivation and direction. And that's when people have the opportunity to have joy, freedom and fulfillment and to back into their lives. And those are the reasons I'm spending the next twenty five years of my life committed to trying to impact a billion lives on this planet. Because if we can reduce the level of suffering that people experience, which there's a lot, and we give them the chance to experience joy, freedom and resentment, we give them the permission to be exactly who they are and know the world will embrace them and love them for exactly who they are. And we can bring vulnerability and authenticity into everything we do, which are the glue that binds human connection. Then we can come together and leave this world a lot more. Beautiful place for my kids, my grandkids.   Joe: Well, let me start here first. Do you still are you still in contact with that nurse?   Brian: You know, I am actually on a mission to find her right now. I've never spoken with her. And so part of the reason I also talk about that role in that process on so many platforms is I want there to be a lot of exposure and hopefully the world is going to help me track her down because I just want to say thank you.   Joe: Sure, that time that I've heard the story, it was like, I need to ask him that question, I'm just wondering if they're in connection with each other.   Brian: We're not I'm actively looking for her right now.   Joe: Got it during the time you were going to school. How did you handle I would assume you were treated differently, right,   Brian: Of   Joe: By   Brian: Course.   Joe: Your by your friends and teachers and they always whatever the case might be. How did you handle that?   Brian: Yes, so I think I handled it from a place to survive and protect myself, although I didn't realize that's what I was doing until far later. I didn't I didn't like being the center of attention and I didn't like. Being defined. By boundaries that were placed upon other people's view of what they'd be capable of in my scenario, and so I got this really adamant approach to I'm not going to be defined by those boundaries and I'm going to break beyond boundaries for my entire life, because why not? If I want to do something, the limitation is inside. Right. I need it. And there may be a physical limitation in some ways, but like I can always overcome the physical limitation. If I have a will and desire, that's great enough. But what happened right to protect myself is I created this intellectual narrative, which was I'm good, I'm strong, I'm capable. I don't need anybody's help. And it served me really well for a long time during that period of time, I was able to really hone my emotional intelligence because I got so good at wanting to divert attention from me that I got very strong in my ability to read people, read environments, read situations so that I could almost ensure that that attention wasn't on me. And so it honed those skill sets. And it also honed my mental toughness, which, again, I'm a huge believer is a big part of the equation to be kind of successful. That intellectual narrative ended up biting me later in life. And when I was 20 years old, I broke my arm in a snowboarding injury.   Brian: Compound fracture almost lost it again. And that was the moment that I realized the power of our narratives because the world bought into mine. I had I had sung that preached that narrative so strong. I never even said those words right. That's just the message that I was sending with my energy and how I showed up and how I interacted. And now all of a sudden, I'm in my most vulnerable period ever as an adult, not having the same infrastructure and support system that I had at home that I probably took for granted up until that point, how much support I had. Now, sitting in this vulnerable position, I didn't have the courage to ask for help. So I had a lot of friends, a lot of family. Nobody showed up and they didn't show because they didn't love me or didn't care about me. And they showed up because they just believe Brian's goody strong is capable. He doesn't need anybody else. And so that's kind of the during that whole school adolescent period. Right. It was really about me proving that I could overcome the physical limitations, that I could protect myself, that I could get myself there. But what I really downplayed the importance of was the importance of human connection. So that whole next year of my life, I shifted to vulnerability and authenticity and how do I hone the relationships that I was developing so strongly through emotional intelligence to be able to focus on a true connection.   Joe: So it sounds like your parents were super special. Did they go out of their way and whatever normal way for them to handle it, to not limit you from doing anything like when somebody knocked on your door and said, hey, can Brian come out and play and we're going to play football? Did they say, Brian, go have fun? Like, is   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That the approach they took?   Brian: You know, nobody's ever asked me that question, you just gave me chills when you asked that. I think it's a blend, honestly. They did. They never wanted to be the reason that I didn't do something. But as you would expect, all parents have a protection mechanism that kicks in. So immediately after the accident, I was I was in slings and during surgeries for a few years. And so that first year after the accident, no, I wasn't going out and playing at the level that I would have right between seven and eight. But it wasn't long after that that it was it opened up. We started having good friends in the neighborhood. We played football in the street. We played basketball on the street. We rode bikes nonstop. And so they were never going to tell me that I couldn't do those things. Now, what they didn't want me to do, they didn't want me to join a football team where we were playing tackle because for obvious reasons, I get hit really hard on that arm. Even though the doctor said the bone wasn't strong, we don't know. Right. So so they would limit it in terms of like, exactly the application. But at the same time, they got so used to me doing what I was doing that whenever the phone rang and it was somebody a number that my mom didn't know back then, she was expecting insert branded something again because I needed I think they appreciated the fact that that's who I was when I was born.   Brian: I mean, I was always the guy that was pushing the limits even before this. This gave me perspective in humility that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And so they at least were aware enough to recognize, like Brian's got a higher risk threshold and probably has an even higher one after the accident than he would have had anyway. And they they knew that they needed to give me those outlets to be able to spread my wings and be free. So they always encouraged. Right. Like, if I wanted to go mountain bike and do jumps, they'd be like, OK, you're going to get hurt. And then if I got hurt, we'd figure it out. Right? I mean, within reason, they gave me the freedom. I think they made the right decision to not let me play tackle football. Who knows what could have happened, but did I play on other sports teams? Absolutely. So, yeah, I think my parents really did encourage and they still do to this day, despite the fact that they know you know, I think my mom has just gotten used to constantly being on edge, like expecting that Brian is going to do something crazy and get hurt. That's how we find our limits in this world, is we've got to push them.   Joe: Well, tell her to not follow your Instagram account so she doesn't have to see you squatting. Four hundred pounds. I saw that. I saw the photo of you sitting there. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't watch this. This is killing me.   Brian: Well, I mean, and that's one of those things I had to learn, right? I mean, my biggest limitation for some of those things is my hand strength. And so I have to get creative and I figure out how to do things. And when I first started deadlifting, I mean, I knew I couldn't deadlift with a normal bar because of the imbalance in my body already, but I could deadlift with a bar and protect myself for the most part. Well, that worked really well until the one time that my strap broke   Joe: Oh.   Brian: While I was lifting. And this was like early on. So I had to, like, learn these things. Well, my instinct wasn't to just let go of the bar on the other side. And I think so what you saw the other day, I wasn't 400 pounds. I think it was two hundred and   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: Forty.   Joe: I know, I just I couldn't remember,   Brian: But   Joe: But.   Brian: But I but I have I have reps significantly above 300 pounds. I don't say that to impress. I rest to the point I was doing that in this one scenario when the strap broke and I didn't let go on my right hand because it wasn't instinct, because I wasn't expecting the strap to break. And this was a learning experience because it tweaked me really bad. And I mean, I didn't deadlift for a few months after that. I had to recover. But once I started getting back into it, it changed my form. It changed my focus, it changed my attention. And now I'm like intimately aware of, like every movement on the strap. And I'm like ready at any moment to just drop so that I don't tweak my back. But my core strength is a big part of my ability to not be in debilitating pain every single day. Those deadlifts keeping my upper thoracic, keeping my shoulders, keeping my back because I don't have a lot on the left side of my back, keeping them strong is essential for me to not be literally in debilitating pain every day.   Brian: And so those are the those are the pains I have to embrace. I've got to embrace the pain of figuring out how do I lift in a way that pushes my body, gets the hip hinge in there, gets the movement, my back and my core strength and all that stuff engaged in a way that's going to allow me to maintain a livable amount of pain in my back because the imbalance versus debilitating suffering. So it's funny that you mention that. But yeah, I think my mom is just used to it. My wife is too. I mean, my wife is incredible. She literally is like I know that if you set your mind to something, you're just going to go do it. And there's a high degree. At some point you going to get hurt. She's like, but what am I going to, like, box you in and continue? Like, you're just going to go do it anyway. I was like, yeah, see, like, I love that, right? It's like just let people let people spread their wings.   Joe: That's right. Well, that's great before we get off of this subject and move on. I know that you and Blake do mountain biking,   Brian: Yeah, we do,   Joe: Right?   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: And that's like a big thing he loves to do with you and you with him. And so that's got to be at least I mean, I've done it and that's a lot on the arms.   Brian: Yes, so what's funny is I have no other perspective because I didn't learn how to mountain bike until after my injury, I didn't I didn't learn how to mountain bike when my when my son did at five and six and seven. So, yeah. It isn't in balance. Yeah, it is difficult. And I did it for almost. Let's see, I did it for probably 20 years before I actually started adapting my bike. And so there's no tricep, so Tricep and Laerte are the two muscles that you absorb, all of it, all of the impact with when you're mountain biking outside of the suspension. So I don't have a lot of tricep. So there's an automatic imbalance in my body, but I've learned how to balance it because I didn't know any other way and I was motivated and wanted to do it. Mountain biking is one of the few places that I'm absolutely free. And the reason I'm absolutely free there is I don't have the ability to think about anything else. Almost any other workout I do, almost anything I do like there's time to think. Mountain biking, you've done it right. You know, like you've got to be on your game.   Brian: One hundred percent focused on what's ahead of you. And so because of that, I've learned how to how to modify my body, my weight distribution, the way that I actually handle the handlebars. But two years ago about I started researching modifications for people with upper extremity injuries. And I landed with this company in the UK that they're actually right now building a product for me that I think is going to take my mountain biking to the next level, which is cool. But what I did is I got a steering stabilizer almost like the ones they have on their bikes. There's a company in the US called Hoby and they make these steering stabilizers for for mountain bikes. So I ended up getting that which what it essentially does is it's a spring unit which snaps the bars back to being straight. I thought it was going to help me more going downhill than uphill. What's crazy is it's actually helped my climbing more than anything because I can pick a line and put all the power I need to in the pedals and not worry about the imbalance in the handles, because it'll it'll keep my lane pure   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: And with slight, rigid and then downhill. It just gives me more confidence as well, because if I were to hit a bump and it goes on the left side, your weight goes forward, the handlebars collapse. Right. And just like twist the bars, this steering stabilizer stabilizer allows me to balance it with the muscle structure having the right arm and how I can balance my body on the left and then hope, hope he breaks is also another brand that I actually found out they just released this last year, a brake unit that has two master cylinders in one unit so you can have your front and your rear brake both on the same side. I've always never used the front brake in mountain biking   Joe: Sure,   Brian: Because my right   Joe: All that   Brian: Side   Joe: Pressure.   Brian: Is always   Joe: Yes.   Brian: What you want to be able to use primarily anyway, right? Whereas road biking, which I do a lot of the front brake is more important. Mountain biking, the rear one's more important. So I was always able to get around the corners, but I never had the confidence that I could actually stop and modulate my brakes effectively. So I would take things a little more cautiously now that I have these brakes on both sides and I can truly modulate, like just with, like little twitches in my fingers and the steering stabilizer and it's changed my mountain biking game. I can go out there and rip at a level that I've never been able to with confidence. And then there's like I said, these are these two other products that I'm really excited about. But, you know, one of the things I never knew any different, I wanted to do it and I figured it out. And I think that, again, that's one of those things that I could have just told myself, like, nope, you can't do it. You don't have tricep, you don't have a lot. But I genuinely believe if you want something badly enough and you take the time to think, plan and put things into trial and error, you start to realize you can do a lot more than what the world conditions us to believe we're capable of. Mountain biking is just another example for me on many things that I've been able to break those boundaries and expectations. I see I go mountain biking. People are like, how do you do it? I'm like, how do you do it? I mean, you could you could explain to me with a fully abled body how you do it, but I wouldn't understand because that's not my experience.   Joe: Yeah, that's crazy. So, Blake, is your son Addisons, your beautiful redheaded little daughter? With what happened to you, do you believe that certain people on this earth are have the power to get through some of these things where I just think about what you've gone through? I think about even my own brother, who, when he was young, why they were there at my parents house, they were splitting wood with one of those hydraulic splitters. That goes really slow. Right. But the   Brian: Oh,   Joe: Log   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Slipped and he had like these two fingers crushed   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Then, you know, reconstructed but not usable in a sense. Then he lost his son at 21 years old in a car accident. And I think about this and I go, God, I. I am not I don't have the capacity to handle something like that. And I guess when it happens, it's different. Right? You figure it out. But I almost feel like certain people I don't know if they just they're born to be able to handle these things. And if this is more for the audience   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That might hear this and go, oh, God, there's all of these things that come into people's lives that they're they're given to deal with whatever that might be. And is it just the chosen ones that can handle it? That's why they've it just doesn't make any sense to me. So that's.   Brian: Yeah, so. I really appreciate the direction your questions are going. By the way, I just have to compliment you on that. You're asking a depth of questions that don't often get contemplated. And I think that there's a lot of truth behind even what you said. You know, it's interesting if you even think about what you just said when you were talking about your brother, you say, I look at him and I'm not sure that I could have handled it. And the reason I pay attention to that is because that is what I truly believe in, how the world has viewed me, they have viewed my limits through their own lens of what they believe they're capable of. I don't think that people truly know what they're capable of until they're tested. And that can be done either intentionally or externally, right? Sometimes we get tested not by our choice. Clearly getting run over by a truck was not by my choice, but it was a test. And I could show my strength to myself into the world by how I stood back up and what I've now done with it. Why I say I have a unique story is it doesn't matter the trauma that I experienced because it's unique solely to me. The trauma that your brother experienced, the trauma that other people experience with divorce or loss of a loved one or financial despair or like you name it, we all have our own unique challenges that we face. And I don't care who you are, if you're still on this planet and you're still standing. You are a survivor. None of us get through this world unscathed.   Brian: None of us. Perspective allows us to really pay attention to what other people are going through, but what perspective is really doing is allowing us the opportunity to get in someone else's world to gain perspective, to apply to our own. So it's not necessarily about what each one of us are inherently able to handle. It's that I think we're all dealt a unique set of cards and it's how we play those cards that matter. So the thing about pain, and I'm just going to speak to that, because my experience was pain, your brother's experience was pain. He had physical pain, probably emotional and spiritual pain with the loss of two fingers and a deep emotional, mental, spiritual, and probably manifested as physical pain with the loss of his son. Pain, that's what it is. Now, pain can't be measured independent of the person experiencing it. But the one thing we know is that it's a universal human experience, we all experience pain. And so what's important is not to question can I or could I have handled that? But just to say I've handled everything that's ever been thrown my way and I'm still standing here today. So what that tells me is you're probably capable of handling a lot more than you thought you were capable of at a prior period in your life. And if something were to happen that's devastating, right in that moment, you have to choose, is this going to define me and keep me stuck or am I going to use this as fuel to who I'm capable of becoming because of what I've gone through? That's why I said earlier I learned not to get stuck by what's happened to me, but I get moved by what I can do with it.   Brian: I realize I have a gift not just in my own natural abilities and gifts and intuition and emotional intelligence and all the things. But this has given me perspective that I couldn't I couldn't have gained any other way. I can put myself in other people's shoes and know what it feels like to not be seen, to know what it feels like, to feel like nobody understands me, to know what it feels like, to have people question everything I'm capable of for my entire life, even if it has nothing to do with my physical ability, even if it's one hundred percent mental, one hundred percent job and application, they view me. As not capable of doing I know what that feels like and I've had to battle that my whole life, I don't know a single person on this planet who has never felt that way. We all feel that we all experience and it's real to each one of us uniquely so I know it's probably a lot longer of an answer than you were hoping for, but the depth of the question, I think, required that approach because it's not about what you believe you could handle based on other people's circumstances. It's about what you already have handled and what you're very capable of handling if you change the way you think and feel about what you're capable of, which, again, is typically limiting in our own belief system.   Joe: So because we're doing this recording and you and I have not talked about what we could talk about or what we couldn't talk about, I want to ask this and obviously I can always edit it out. And you   Brian: Free   Joe: Know   Brian: Game, buddy, go ahead, go ahead.   Joe: What? So when does someone say, like, did you ever have these dark moments? And this is not the part of the question that I'm going to ask. This is just in front of it. And you ever have a moment that you said, why me? Like, did you ever   Brian: Absolutely.   Joe: Ok?   Brian: Absolutely, and I have those moments still today when I get when I get hit with certain things. The reason I was able to shift out of that so quickly, I remember being seven years old and that was the first thing I remember when I woke up, one feeling like it was a dream. And then I was like in this hazy state of like what this altered reality felt like, it didn't feel real. And then it was probably a day or two before I really came to and was like awake, awake, not just like in that dazed awake. At least this is from memory, I don't know the exact timeline. This is just how I feel it. And I literally remember. That question. Weiming. What is the rest of my life going to look like, like this sucks. I felt sorry for myself. I was given the opportunity to snap out of that quickly because the uniqueness of my story drew a lot of attention to it and there was a lot of families in the ICU with us who were coming up to us saying, we're so sorry for what happened to you. This is so horrible. We can't believe how hard this must be for you as a family. Let us know whatever we can do to help. Just getting wrapped with love and support from strangers to strangers saved my life. Right. That's crazy to think about. A stranger went into action and saved my life. Had she not chosen to do that, I wouldn't be here.   Brian: So I don't take that lightly, but what's happening in the ICU with these families is we start to realize that these families that are giving us just unfiltered support. Are also questioning whether or not their kid is going to survive another 30 days from the terminal illness that they're in the ICU with. Only immediate threat to my life and not at that moment knowing whether or not I'd be able to use my arm. I knew I'd be alive and over the course of the next ten years, being with those kids and all of us who wanted to rally around this cause to help more people, to bring perspective, motivation, direction to an organization that helped us so holistically in a healing process, either physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Right. I lost multiple of them to their terminal illnesses over the course of the next ten years. And so although I don't think about them every day, when I'm asked questions like that, it really centers me on grounds me because I'm here happy, healthy and productive, living a life that many would dream of. And those kids didn't have the opportunity to do so. And so I have to just know and honor that it was me for a lot of reasons, I might not know all those reasons in this lifetime, I believe I know a lot of them at this point, but I still ask that question. I mean, last week was an unbelievably challenging week for me.   Joe: I saw the story and, yeah, that's part of where,   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: You know, this   Brian: I mean,   Joe: Is   Brian: Last   Joe: Going.   Brian: Week   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Was an unbelievably challenging week for me, for a variety of reasons. One was around this fabricated reality, around a date that in some ways is very significant, in other ways is not significant. But coincidentally or coincidentally, I got kicked in the stomach multiple times last week. And yet it didn't really totally faze me in a way that brought me down to the deepest, darkest moments, because every time I face those things, every time I start to ask the question, why me? It starts to reveal itself faster and faster the more I go through the pain. And and and so I now have this element of trust in surrender where the literally last week I was like, why do I always have this stuff happening? Why am I the one that has to deal with this? Literally? I mean, I said to my wife last week and then in the same breath, I'm like, I know why. And so for those that did ask that question still. I would just encourage you to recognize that there absolutely is a resum. Nothing happens by accident. You could call this my accident, but this was for a purpose, it wasn't on purpose, but it was for a purpose. And I realize that now more holistically than I have in my entire life, but it's the same thing for everybody else. I mean, I guarantee that your brother has learned from his experiences and having to adapt and do things with the loss of two fingers. He's had to learn and adapt. What does it mean to be a parent? And there's so many are out there who live on their lives without their child. Still a part of it. Parents aren't meant to outlive their kids.   Joe: Correct. What's   Brian: Right,   Joe: The what   Brian: And.   Joe: The worst car I could think of?   Brian: And by the way, there was this pending doom around this date last week that was connected to that for me, as well as from a parent's lens now. And the data is reference to a couple times I didn't I didn't say specifically on the show, but this last Saturday, March 6th, was the day that my son, who's my little clone, my little mini me, my my only boy and my oldest. Was the exact same age to the day that I was on the day of my injury. Twenty nine years separated. And. There was a lot to that most of what happened in the 10 days leading up to it had nothing to do with my son. But they were absolutely clarifying moments that needed to take place in that window. And Saturday was kind of a new start for me and a whole variety of ways, which was just unbelievably cleansing and freeing and purifying. And so even the questions last week, why me? Why does this always happen to me? Why do I have to be the one to do this? We're very clear. I know, and I think all of us do we just fight and we resist because it's not in alignment with what the world tells us. It's not in alignment with what the narrative is externally. Right. But it's not about being the victim. It's about recognizing that if we have ownership and accountability with everything we do, we recognize that there's always a reason, there's always a cause, and there's always a way through it if we desire it enough. That's when we start to become free.   Joe: Ok, so here's the the part where I want to talk about Blake and Addison really quickly, I don't want to stay because, you know, I know you're super productive, positive guy. And I don't want this episode to be like the Debbie Downer episode. But you went through a lot in your life up to this   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Point. Right.   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: A lot.   Joe: Then, Blake, I remember you talking about this, so I'm only bringing this up because I think you've talked about   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: It and.   Brian: I've shared publicly on stuff, I'm sure I know where you're going,   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: But go ahead.   Joe: So so you said it is is on the spectrum, right, and so you there's an extra amount of attention that has to happen   Brian: Of course,   Joe: There. Right.   Brian: Of course.   Joe: So then you deal with that another moment where you said, why me? Like, I haven't I haven't. I gone through enough. Why me? Right. And then now you have yet a third time now with with Adderson with her here. Right. And I could be another time we go. What is it going to stop. Like why me. Right. I'm sure there's people out there that do not handle this anywhere near as well as you do. And I'm hoping your words of wisdom, if they run across this episode, that it will help them understand how you I mean, you can look at their beautiful faces and go, oh, it doesn't matter. You know, they're amazing. It just it's a it's a small little blip on the radar. But it's still some people can't even handle the bullet. So   Brian: They   Joe: That's,   Brian: Can't.   Joe: You   Brian: They   Joe: Know.   Brian: Can't. And by the way, there's a lot more depth and truth to that statement than than you probably even realized, I mean, to the point that when we found out about our daughter's hearing loss. The audiologist actually said to us she does have loss and she could benefit from hearing devices. And I paused and I said. She could benefit, like are you saying she needs hearing aids, like is her hearing profound enough that it's not like she would benefit? She she needs it to restore it to what we would expect are going to be? And she said, yeah. I said, why didn't you just say that? And she said, because most parents don't want to hear it. And she said that even when they do want to hear it, she said, because of the reports that we get when we plug in hearing aids, even if they go through the process of getting hearing aids, even if they go through the process of doing these things, she said. Most kids, the hearing aids live in a drawer. Because of some reason, right, that either the parents don't think it's important they're embarrassed by their kid or whatever, like there's a whole slew of things. You're exactly right. And in both those moments, by the way, when we found out about our son's diagnosis on the autism spectrum and we found out about our daughter.   Brian: It was it was challenging, right? It was absolutely challenging for both my wife and I and we both we both grieved in different ways. And why I choose the word grieve is any time we have a vision for our lives. And that reality that we've created gets stolen from us, we experience loss. We literally go through the grieving process, the multiple steps of grieving, sometimes it's anger that manifest first, sometimes it's just like absolute depression. But but recognize it for what it is like having something happen to your kid and realizing that they might have an altered future from what you always desired and hoped for them. You have to process that, but then once you process that and you start to realize like this doesn't define the kid, just like a mine accident didn't define me right. What this really does is it's a gift because what getting both of their diagnosis is as early as we did, what allows us to do is wrap them with services, wrap them with all the support they need to close the gap between whatever their diagnosis limits them from doing to what a typical kid might be capable of doing. It shortens that gap early in those foundational early development years so that it won't really ever hurt them.   Brian: Plus, the more that we talk about it not as an ailment, but just a part of who they are, right. It's no longer a label. It becomes a term of empowerment because they recognize that like they have superpowers as a result of what their diagnoses are. So the answer is yes. There's there was absolute grieving for both my wife and I, for both children. We're well beyond that at this point. But it hung with us for a while. And and there are still moments where the difficulty and complexity of our household that most people will never understand and ours is light compared to what some other people's situations are. Right. So we keep that in perspective, too. Is it harder than most parents and most households might have to be? We believe so, but it's not about like we have got it more difficult than what they have. It's just this is the cards were dealt, so we're going to play them as best we can for both of our kids. We know how lucky they are to have us. My wife is brilliant. My wife is brilliant and what she has done to allow our kids to feel authentically who they are in safe, despite all of these things, despite the fact that they know they're different in certain ways and honoring and cherishing, encouraging them to just make do the things that make their hearts happy and stand up for what is right and know that they're worthy of receiving love like exponentially.   Brian: And all these things, like my wife and I were partners, but our kids are lucky to have us at the counter to that is we also feel extremely privileged to have our kids because they have challenged me to go to depths of myself, my soul, my emotions that allow me to be more effective in the world. That had I not recognized those scenarios for what they were, which is we can handle them and let's figure out the plan forward. It probably would have made me feel stuck longer than it did. And so for those parents that are listening out there that might have kids like this or even if there's not a diagnosis, but you just have a challenging time or there's an injury or there's something like, again, nothing happens by accident. And so the only way through it is through it, and if you if you desire something on the other side, then you've got to go through and that's really what it comes down to.   Joe: Really powerful and I appreciate you sharing leading up to this interview, I wanted to talk about those things and I was just like, I know he's talked about it, but I I didn't know how to actually go after it and   Brian: You did it beautifully, my friend, it was   Joe: Think   Brian: Great.   Joe: I'm grateful that you shared. And so, OK, so now you and I know this is a big jump, but I just want to I know we   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Have limited   Brian: No, let's go. We got it, yeah.   Joe: We have limited time and I don't and I want to get to where you are today. So then you get into the insurance business. Correct. So you're in that for you grew a company. I think it was from like.   Brian: Quarter million to 15 million over the span of a decade.   Joe: You just picked that that was just a career that you pick at one point and.   Brian: Yeah, you know what's funny, I saw depicted it sort of picked me up, I was my junior year in college, was deciding that I needed to go get an internship. And so I started looking at a whole bunch different places. And I actually ended up getting into insurance because my one of my childhood friends and my childhood girlfriend, in fact, that we grew up together. And a lot of ways I always had her parents were like second parents to me for a lot of years. And I always had a great lot of respect. But I always viewed her dad as this very successful man. But I knew nothing about what he did. And I reached out to him as a mentor, frankly, and just said, hey, I'm going out. I'm doing these interviews and I have these things. And I talked to my own parents and they're successful. They've done these things as well. But I wanted extra perspectives. And he ultimately was like, I'm going to pass on your resume to so-and-so. And if you don't get a call in three days, call me. I was like, OK, not a clue what it was. It was the only one that was in insurance. Right. Very, very amazing opportunity. And it just took off from there. And nobody grows up wanting to be an insurance, right? I mean, and if they do and if you're listening to this, I apologize if you always had a desire to be an insurance. I know there's some people who love it. I never loved it. It was a great vehicle for me. And it was a great testing ground for me to grow and develop who I was as a professional, who I was as a man. I kind of grew up in it, but yeah, no, I didn't seek out insurance. I kind of fell into it and it just it fit.   Joe: Right. So while you were there with your inner voice saying there's more out there for me, I want to do more, whatever it might be. I mean, how did you make the jump then when you left   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: There to now what you're doing, which is the coaching and the speaking and and the podcast. And I mean, I, I look at your website and I get tired just looking at all the all the different menus that I could take a look at stuff. And then I went into the podcast when I was like, wait, is he doing actually three podcasts? Like, how is he doing all this? So how did you decide how did you decide you were going to leave insurance and then pursue the Brian Bogot we know today?   Brian: Yes, so I'm going to start with the first question you asked, which was, did I always know? I knew for a long time I've always had this gut feeling that like there was something meaningful that I was meant to do. No idea what that meant. OK. And then I conditioned that out of myself, and when I first got out of college, it was like bright eyed and bushy tailed, I was going to go take over the world and make a ton of money. Right. I'm going I'm literally going to be running the company. I'm going to climb the corporate ladder. I mean, it was all external. And, you know, this is one of the things I talk about now is I chased the what like so many of us did. Right? I chased what house, what car, what amount of money, what amount of success, what image do I want to portray? What, what, what, what, what. And I lost the who along the way. And I woke up one day after having accomplished all the words that I ever desired, way earlier than I thought I would have, in a way bigger level than I ever thought I would. And I realized, like, what have I been doing all this for? The more money I made, the less I cared about money, the more I got into a successful career, the more I was like, why am I doing to myself? And then I'm running in circles with people making six, seven, eight figures who all were having high of success and they were all miserable to.   Brian: And so those were the turning turning point moments over the probably the last seven to eight years, maybe six, seven years, if I'm being real honest, because when I first started coaching, it was because I had my son and I always said that I'm going to do everything for the benefit of my family always. And I did. But then six months went by when my son like that and I realized I missed all of it except the first week because I was burning the candle at both ends, I was still living the life that I was to create this abundant amount of external success and validation that I needed to prove to myself I could do it and I never recalibrated my life. So part of providing everything for my family is with finances and security and opportunity and safety and all those things. But but but it's also love and leadership and presence and connection. And I don't want to be that guy that did everything for his family, then woke up twenty five years later and never had a relationship with any of them.   Brian: They decided that I didn't serve a role for them outside of money. It's not all about money. It never was all about money. And so it was the first in my life. I didn't have the people in my life, the mentors, the experience or the intellect myself to figure out how to fix it. So I hired my first coach. And he said to me, a month of working together, because you're going to be doing this, like, what are you talking about? He said you need to be coaching and speaking. So you've been on stages since you were seven because you've got a unique ability or a unique story and you have an ability that you're not afraid in front of groups. And he's like, you're all about building people and building businesses. Like you're always helping. You're always finding ways to level people up. You're always helping them connect dots. And I was like, yeah, whatever. I was like, I'm paying you a lot of money. Not that's how great I have to figure out this stuff. And I completely threw it out the window. And then it just kept trickling. It kept trickling in every single month for about nine months.   Brian: And then this crazy experience happened, which again, nothing happens by accident. But the universe gave me the sign that I needed, which was he told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. And that's when I started to desire a little bit more and started to feel like maybe I wasn't in alignment. But I had to ask the question if I'm going to jump in being in coaching, is this complementary or conflicting to everything else I had because I was so significantly invested mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually and monetarily. Right. In this other business that we built, that was the fruits of its labor were just starting to pay off. And it's like, let's let's make sure that we forge ahead on what we're doing here. So I started coaching and speaking and I did it alongside for about five years and then summer of twenty nineteen comes around. And again, I told you, I'm running in circles with people that are miserable. And I realized my relationship with my clients started shifting to more coaching relationships. We were placing multi million, hundreds of millions, tens of millions of dollars of insurance for people. And my conversations had nothing to do with insurance with the people that I was actually interacting   Joe: Right.   Brian: With at the C Suite.   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Right. I was coaching them on how to be better people, how to be better leaders, how to change the culture of their business, think through and problem solve on things that really had nothing to do with insurance. But the insurance was how we were in the door. And so the more that started to migrate, we have this connection moment summer twenty nineteen with my wife and I. We go away for a weekend and it was one of those that like mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally, like brother, like our souls were bonded like we were one and we're driving back to pick up our kids and she looks, everybody goes, how would you feel if you did have to go to the office on Monday morning? And I was like, that's a pretty loaded question.   Joe: No.   Brian: Why don't you tell me more? Well, I had some other I had some other health stuff that impacted me pretty significantly a few years back. I'm good now. It's all all squared away. But she said, I think you let some of this stuff allow fear to enter into your world in a way I've never seen you operate. She said, I feel like you've convinced yourself that we need the money, the status, the prestige, the security, the all of the above, what's been built. She said, I'm here to tell you we don't I don't care if we live in a cardboard box. What we need is one hundred percent of you. And she said, I don't know if you see it or not, but I see you dying a little bit inside every single day. You live in insurance. And and so she said, I think you're barely scraping the surface of your potential, nor do I think you have any impact on the world that you want. And then she said, you know, there's nobody on this planet I'd rather take a bet on than you. We took a big bet on you once and it paid off. Why don't we double down on that bet and see what you can do? And so, you know, this was one of those moments where I was flooded with fear, flooded with a whole bunch of emotions. And I had to spend three months really unpacking it with complete awareness, complete intentionality, understanding where my blocks were and ultimately came to the decision that I needed to embrace the pain of walking away from the easy button, from the sure thing, to avoid the suffering of not ever knowing what I could become or what I'd be capable of doing from an impact perspective.   Brian: So you fast forward to today and you know, I spent 10 months unpacking that business left at the time, the best year ever in that industry, the year I left and was simultaneously building the foundation for where we could go. And, you know, I'm not sure if I said it or not yet on this show. I think I did. Yeah, but but that's that's now where I'm so clear and convicted on this billion lives. I genuinely believe, like we've got an opportunity to to change the world and make people feel at a level that they've never felt and feel free. And so I know what that miserable, dark place looks like. I've spent a lot of my life in moments like that. No one deserves to feel that way, but a lot of people do. And right now, I feel more free, more fulfilled, happier and more like myself than I have in my entire life. Everybody deserves to feel how I'm feeling right now. And so when I started to get the curiosity, I didn't even lean into it. My wife pushed me. And she, along with my other coach, told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear, and it's not lost on me, the courage it took in my wife to take that leap of faith with me and give me the push knowing it could upset her entire lifestyle. And so that's what I had to honor because my kids are watching, I don't want my kids to see me do what I want my kids to see me do what's right.   Joe: Incredible. I love it, so your podcast, what are there, is there are there three, is that   Brian: You   Joe: Right   Brian: Know what, I actually   Joe: Or.   Brian: Don't even have my own yet,   Joe: Ok.   Brian: I I'm in the process of developing a few. What you've probably seen as I have Bogarts Bullets, which is a regular consistent thing, but and it's going to be repurposed into a podcast. But right now it's just on YouTube and it goes on all my social channels. We have a marriage hack's string that we've started that my wife and I, we've now done we've only done one episode, but we repurpose it into three. And then my content team and strategist's decided that there are a whole lot of thought leaders, influencers, speakers in the world that create intellectual content similar to what I have for years, Bogarts, bullets putting things out, podcasts, other pieces of content to get distributed. And then there's bloggers that are much more niche, but there's nobody that's doing both. And so he's like. If you talk about how you live, you talk about these philosophies, you talk about these guiding principles, these lessons, these things that you do. Why don't we pull the curtain back and show people behind the scenes that that's actually how you operate. And so those are the three things that you've probably found is bogus bullets, the marriage tax and then the No Limits blog. And all three of those, although they're not currently set up as podcasts, one of them will be repurposed that way. And then I'm actually in the process right now. I'll be a co-host on at least two podcasts. We're going to be launching here soon, likely three if this other concept takes off. The podcasting world has kind of changed my world in a lot of ways, in a way I never saw coming. And I've been on over one hundred and fifty other people shows in the last seven, eight months, and it's allowed me to have opportunities to meet people like you. Right. And the connection with Ken Joslyn and Steve Sams. Right. Which both were people that I was on their platforms, on their shows. Like it's allowed me to align myself with incredible individuals on this planet so that we can truly have collective impact. So those are the three shows that currently exist. But they're not podcast currently.   Joe: Got it. OK, so you have things coming up, I know that you're doing the Ken Joslin's   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Boot camp, right?   Brian: Yep, yep, I'm doing his boot camp in April, I've done two of his I've got some other speaking events coming up. And then we've also got a few things launching that I'm really excited about. So we're still doing all of our work with no limits university, which is really like the concepts and the philosophies to help people understand who they are, leading them on intrinsic journey. But we also have another entity in a movement that's called Who before what that's launching as we speak, which is really an attempt to help us change the language and narrative in society about putting more emphasis on what we do versus who we are. And it's not that one or both don't matter. It's that they both matter. But one needs to lead, which is who. And so we're going to change the narrative because it's this whole idea that you go to a networking event. And the first question everybody asks is, what do you do? And even if you asked who you are, like, tell me who you are. Ninety eight percent of people answer with what they do, not who they are.   Joe: So   Brian: Part of the   Joe: True.   Brian: Pain and suffering that exists on this planet, as so many people don't know who they are. And so a lot of the core of the work with everything we do with our coaching and the No Limits university and those things are all about that. But we're actually creating a specific movement to bring into conscious awareness this idea of who needs to be before what.   Joe: I love that is the university and the who before. What are they separate from your actual coaching piece   Brian: They're   Joe: That you   Brian: All   Joe: Do   Brian: There, it's all kind of integrated,   Joe: Ok?   Brian: So, yeah, my my I would say my one to one coaching is the only thing that's kind of outside of that umbrella. It all fits on the same coaching philosophies. But just with the people I work with one to one, it's it's just inherently different than the other structure that we have. But it's the same philosophies, what you'll know about me and a lot of what we do with the no limits you and everything is this idea that we truly have the ability, if we are aware enough and influential enough to build a life of alignment that can become self-regulating. So for me, I'm very clear on who I am. I'm very clear on where I'm headed. I'm very clear on the impact I want to have, as well as the hierarchy of importance in my life. Family being first. Right. After that, because I'm so clear, everything I do is in alignment with where I'm headed. So when you ask the question, are they all, yeah, they're integrated because they're all holistically apart and in alignment of where we're going to impact a billion lives. How those are translated look a little bit different. But they are all towards the same intent, which is to impact a billion lives.   Joe: So it's the YouTube channel, it's eventually some podcasts on their way. It's but no limits university. There's the Who before what portion of that? There's the coaching, which is one on one with you. Correct. Speaking engagements. When when? I mean, obviously, you still do it virtually, but you're actually going to be live at that bootcamp coming   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Up in   Brian: Yep.   Joe: April. So as that opens up again, I mean, when I watched you on the Growth Now summit, which I attended, your portion of, it was brilliant. I   Brian: Oh,   Joe: You   Brian: Thank   Joe: Know, I   Brian: You.   Joe: Just said, I mean, you're an amazing speaker.   Brian: Thank you.   Joe: You're just not talking to us. But you bring people in to the story.   Brian: Thank   Joe: And   Brian: You.   Joe: I just   Brian: Thank   Joe: Sat   Brian: You.   Joe: There and I was like, oh, this is unbelievable. Like, I would have paid thousands of dollars to   Brian: Thank   Joe: Watch.   Brian: You.   Joe: So it   Brian: Thank   Joe: Was amazing.   Brian: You.   Joe: Did I miss somewhere on your website? Because it's just so much on there. I can't figure out.   Brian: No,   Joe: But   Brian: You   Joe: Is   Brian: Didn't miss you didn't   Joe: It.   Brian: Miss anything. There's going to be new sections actually built on the website, Zoom. Let's put it this way. You listed a lo

My guest today is Brian Breslin. Brian is a tech entrepreneur, educator, and community builder based in Miami. He's the director of The Launch Pad, the entrepreneurship center at the University of Miami, and founder of Refresh Miami, a non-profit organization dedicated to growing South Florida's tech and startup ecosystem. In this conversation, we focus on community-building, especially during this time when geographic boundaries are becoming blurred. Listen to the show Download episode 50   Show notes Brian Breslin @BrianBreslin on Twitter Refresh Miami Google Groups LISTSERV Meetup Mailchimp Constant Contact Miami Herald Magic Leap REEF Technology Airtable Zapier Tony Hsieh Wealthfront Venmo Metcalfe's law Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commissions for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Episode 50: Brian Breslin Jorge: So, Brian, welcome to the show. Brian: Thanks for having me. Jorge: Well, it's great to have you here. For folks who might not know who you are, could you please introduce yourself? About Brian Brian: Sure. My name is Brian Breslin, I'm a Miami-native tech-entrepreneur and community builder and educator. I've been working on the internet since 1995 — since I was a teenager — and I've been building different products and companies and helping other people with their stuff for the last 20-plus years. Jorge: I've been aware of your work, I think from fairly early on, and I've seen you create what seems to me like a pretty thriving community in Miami. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Brian: Sure. About almost 15 years ago, coming up in the spring, I started an organization called Refresh Miami. Refresh Miami is one of my sort of proudest achievements at this point in my career. It's the largest tech and startup community nonprofit in the Southeast United States. It's got a little over 11,000 members, who come together to share ideas and to network and to learn about the entrepreneurial ecosystem and how to start a startup, how to bring their ideas to life, how to grow their businesses and their professional careers and all that. And, pre-pandemic, the format was a monthly meetup where we'd have speakers and guests talk about different topics related to building their businesses and things like that. And we had around two to three hundred people every month from the greater Miami metropolitan area coming to sort of break bread and have a drink and meet someone new. The origins of Refresh Miami Jorge: When you started it, it just started from scratch? Brian: I was inspired by Refresh Dallas and Refresh Phoenix, which both had popped up a few months earlier. I had heard about them actually through the web accessibility community, which was more prominent back then in 2005, 2006. And there were sort of ad hoc , no central organization. But the idea was, how do we advance the local tech communities? And a lot of it was just people searching for their own tribes, you know, and trying to find like-minded individuals. And that was what inspired me. I was a solo entrepreneur in Miami having returned from University just a year and a half earlier, and I was looking for people who I could talk to about tech, and learn from, and collaborate with. That community didn't exist in Miami at the time. There had been some during the first dot com boom, but then that all fizzled out in the early 2000s. And this was a lull in the market and a lull in the community where there wasn't anywhere for people who wanted to learn about emerging technologies and where they could meet other people. And so this was as much me wanting to make friends as it was me hoping to coalesce a tribe. Jorge: So, it sounds like there were precedents, but there wasn't a community already in place in Miami. What did you do to get things kicked off there? Brian: I think all I did in the beginning was I had set up a basic website and I put a little newsletter signup form where people could sign up for our Google group, which was like a LISTSERV-type tool that existed back in the early- to-mid 2000s. I posted a message saying, “who wants to go grab coffee and talk about tech?” And we had like twenty five people respond, randomly find me through the internet. And then the first meetup we had was five or six people at a Starbucks on South Beach, and we talked about everything from like MySpace to Friendster to HTML, CSS… JavaScript was starting to take off back then, and it was sort of a very nerdy meetup. But that was the first one. And then everyone had fun and they were like, “let's do this next month!” And the next month, everyone brought a friend, and it went from five to eight or nine and then to twelve to twenty. And soon it became this sort of regular thing where we quickly outgrew the Starbuckses and had to find people's offices to hang out in. And people would bring their own beer, their own pizzas, you know, and the idea was very, very ad hoc and everyone was there to share, you know? So, you brought enough beer for you and other people that have some. You brought enough wine for you and other people that have some. And same for food and things like that. Eventually I just started buying pizzas for everybody. I looked at it like this was my contribution-slash-marketing budget that I otherwise would have spent on my business. And, you know, it worked out. It became this sort of, regularly scheduled meeting point for people to find their underground community. And we continued that for years and years. And I think now we've done well over 150 events at this point. Jorge: As someone who has been posting stuff to the internet for a long time, I have experienced the frustration that comes from putting something out there and not having anyone respond or look at it. And it seems to me that your first message that you posted got traction. And I'm wondering what about it drew people's attention? Brian: I think there's a couple of factors. One was, there was no real expectation of people, so the risk level was super low. Like, what's the worst that can happen? If you buy a cup of coffee, you don't get along with everyone, you just leave. And there was no financial commitment, there was no expectation of you showing off your expertise or anything like that. And on top of that, you have to think about the context of the time. So back in 2005-6, there wasn't as much stuff going on online and there wasn't as much content being created on such a rapid clip as there is now. Now you're competing with Facebook newsfeeds and Twitter timelines and all these things that everything is almost ephemeral. And so, if you don't get the right person in the right location at the right time, it's like hitting a target from very far away, you know? If you don't hit that right target, then you miss them forever. And so, I think we benefited from that luck. And I like to think that we succeeded despite ourselves, because we didn't really have an intention of saying, “we need to make this bigger.” It was just, we need to make this enjoyable for the people who are coming and make this something they can depend on and count on and make it welcoming. Because a lot of this was also in response to… I had experienced the local chamber of commerce at the time. And as a young 22-year-old entrepreneur trying to get his business off the ground and being basically told, “well, you're not working at Microsoft? Why am I talking to you?” You know, type of attitude over and over from people. And feeling dismissed, right? And basically, made to feel like I wasn't part of that community. And so, this was the flavor that worked for me and I was solving my own itch and it just so happened there were other people who had that same itch to scratch. Focus, topics, and geography Jorge: And it sounds like the itch has to do with the intersection between technology and entrepreneurship and location, right? One of the things that I'm hearing implicit in what you're saying is that having focus is important to attract the people who are going to be interested in the same things that you're interested in, is that fair? Brian: I think so. I think a lot of it has to do with consistency, with carving out your niche in the broader sense. Miami's got three, four million people in it, and so at the time you could have said, “we're a community for business owners,” and that starts with too broad of a net, you're casting too wide of a net in order to bring in too many people, and it doesn't have the high enough signal-to-noise ratio than if you start with saying, “we're really only catering to other techies or other nerds.” And that I think helped us, because we were self-selecting down to a smaller community of people that are geographically bound and are, career-bound in the sense that like they have the same interests and the same locations. And so, basically saying those are the two variables that we're playing off of makes a lot of sense. I've studied a lot of community-building patterns and trends over the years, and most of it's been after the fact, not preemptively, as we grow our business or as we grow our organization, because it's a nonprofit organization. But there's so much more information out there now versus 15 years ago, as far as how to do this correctly versus what are the steps that one could make? And so, on many fronts, we lucked out along the way, and then in many senses we also could have done better if we'd had more mentorship, if we'd had more guidance as far as what's the right way to do this. It could have been that Refresh Miami, would be at 25,000 or 45,000 people by now. But I'm happy with the levels of growth and the sustainability of it all. The fact that we're going to be on our year 15 in this organization, which is remarkable as far as how long these things usually last, because we've seen so many organizations come and go and attempts at community building in other communities, and even in our own, over the years. Online community infrastructure Jorge: You mentioned the events, these monthly gatherings. I'm wondering if there is an online component to the community as well, where people come together. How does that aspect of it work? Brian: So, over the years, we've played around with different sort of types of online engagement for people. Our main tool for broadcasting and outreach has been email the whole time, because that's been surprisingly effective giving us the control we need in order to keep in touch with our community and also not being platform dependent. Because imagine if we had started off with being a MySpace page, right? That wouldn't have lasted very long. Or if we had focused only on the Facebook group or things like that. So, we do have a Facebook group, and that has about 4,000 people in it. And then we also have a Slack community, which has another three or 4,000 people. And I don't know what the overlap is between the two, as far as who's in which one, if it's a hundred percent overlap or not. And then we engage with people a lot on Twitter as well. But one of the things that we're working on actively right now is actually building out better tools in order to support peer-to-peer direct connections and also to give people the tools in order to allow them to communicate around their own interests. We used Meetup for a long time and we still do, but we use it mostly as casting another net because they have their own audience and their own ability to attract potential new members that we don't necessarily have. Because people who search for “Miami tech meetup,” they will find us on there. But we use that as a funnel to bring people to our other channels. But meetup.com as a tool has gone through its own ups and downs, as far as, the software being maintained properly and then their ownership by WeWork, and then, later spun out by WeWork. And so, we're building our own technology in order to effectively replace that function for our community so that people can start their own micro-communities and have our audience to feed from. That'll allow people with very obscure interests, like, “The Font Designers of Miami,” you know, there might be 10 of them, right? But it'd be impossible for them to find each other without our preexisting community to feed from. And so, that's one of our next things that we're working on and helping to launch in Q1 of 2021, to make that something that makes it easier for these types of groups to form and for them to sustain as well. Jorge: And that would manifest as a web-based tool? Brian: Yeah. So that would be a web and mobile based tool that lives on inside the refreshmiami.com domain. Jorge: You talked about using email as the primary means of communication. How are you managing that? Are you using a mass emailing platform? Brian: We use MailChimp as our email service provider, and we've been using them for probably about 10 years. And we jumped around from different platforms before that. We used Constant Contact for a while. We used a handful of others and the honest answer as far as why we shifted from one to another was cost. It wasn't a matter of, was one a better tool than the other? There was some learning curve at each sort of change, but it was really like, this was the right balance of cost-to-features that we liked. And they also gave us the ability to have portability in that we could take our list, export it, and then import it into the next provider. And so, we weren't locked in and we weren't at the sort of beck and call or at the will of say like Facebook, right? So, Facebook doesn't give us the ability to outreach to all of our members of our Facebook fan page or a group directly. We'd have to pay every single time to run ads at those people because it's such a small percentage that get engaged with otherwise. Whereas on our email platforms, we're regularly averaging… 30 to 35% of our list is opening every single email that we send out. And so that ends up being a much more cost-effective and effective platform and sort of channel for us. Jorge: Are these emails mostly announcing upcoming events? What type of content goes out? Brian: For the last two years, we've been doing news coverage. We hired a reporter from The Miami Herald to spearhead this, and we've been basically the sole source of news coverage in the local startup ecosystem. We felt that it was important to have these stories be told because The Miami Herald was the main news source in Miami, but it was basically scaling back on how much coverage it would give to entrepreneurial endeavors and startups and the tech ecosystem. So, if it wasn't for our coverage, no one locally would be talking about the billions of dollars that Magic Leap raised, or the $1.2 billion that REEF, formerly known as ParkJockey, raised to build cloud kitchens and things like that. We felt it was important for those stories to be told because one of the big challenges when you're building a community is people aren't necessarily aware that there's other people like them around. We want the people who are building interesting stuff to know that there's other people that are building interesting stuff near them in the broader geographic area as well. That helps on several fronts, one being inspirational to people to see that people are trying big things, and the other on making it easier for job creation and job placement. Because a lot of the talent that comes to our community comes from outside of our community or would otherwise leave our community because they don't know that there's second or third options in case of the one job that they come to Miami for fails, they don't have to leave. And so, the fact that you can come get a job at REEF and know that if that company were to fail, there's a half a dozen other well-funded startups that are doing interesting sort of global scale projects that you could go work on. You don't immediately have to leave to go to San Francisco or New York or Austin or Seattle to get another tech job. Jorge: Hearing you describe this just makes me think how complex such an ecosystem can be. You said you have over 11,000 members. Are you using any kind of system to keep track of those relationships? Like a CRM or something like that? Brian: So, we haven't used a CRM. What we've been doing though on some fronts… I'm a huge advocate of Airtable. And so, I've been diving heavily into Airtable over the last six to nine months. COVID has given me an extra time to work from home and dabble on these things. So, we do a lot of Airtable and Zapier. Zapier, I'm also another power user of. I have so many zaps built to automate things and stuff like that, that, if it wasn't for their like pretty interface, I'd have a hard time keeping track of them. But yeah. So, we use Airtable to track all the companies, all the investors, and then a subset of the members that are doing interesting things that we know about. because the idea is that if we can keep somewhat tabs on what these people are doing, we can suggest those people to others or invite them to give talks or speak or share their stories. And having that in an organized fashion has helped us immensely in being able to manage this stuff because Refresh is run by an all-volunteer community. There's no full-time staff for it at the moment. We have a few interns here and there and we have one person who's the executive director who splits her time between her actual full-time job and Refresh. The impact of COVID on regional communities Jorge: You mentioned COVID, and one of the effects of the current situation is that, like you said, those of us who can work from home or working from home. And I've experienced local groups who have meetups and who have regular events for their members, recruit speakers from further afield. Over the last year, I've been invited to speak for a group, for example, in Argentina. I spoke with folks in Peru. Tomorrow I'm speaking at a conference in Amsterdam. And I'm doing it all from the very place where I'm sitting now. And I'm wondering, how has the pandemic changed the geographic nature of Refresh? Brian: So, that's an interesting thread that you bring up. On one hand, one of the things that we were known for before the pandemic was, we were the only group that flew in speakers from around the country to come and give talks and workshops in Miami. And occasionally, we would do a live stream back then to an in-person audience here. And we haven't replaced those events with just purely virtual events. Other groups here in Miami have been doing virtual events with local speakers. But one of our thoughts on this was: there are so many people doing online webinars and Zoom-style video conferences. And they know that model and they know how to monetize that model and make it sustainable. So, we decided we're going to defer for six to eight months or however long, to other groups, because you're no longer competing with your other local geographic groups for online content. You're competing with the whole world, right? And so, if we didn't have a way to enable the peer-to-peer networking that was the icing on top of the cake from our local communities, it didn't make sense for us to go to all the effort to coordinate and organize an online event where it was no more engaging than watching a YouTube video. And so, as a result, we scaled back and it hurt us from a financial standpoint because our revenue came from event sponsorships beforehand, and that went towards covering the cost of flying people in and renting space and catering and things like that. We haven't found a tool that makes it easy to replicate the social aspect of the events. We're still figuring that out. We think that maybe on our new platform, once that goes live, we'll be able to replicate that in that you are watching with your peers, and you're able to interact with them and discover who they are and hopefully get to that sort of serendipitous collision factor that Tony Hsieh from Zappos loves to focus on. Getting that right is more important than having a continuous stream of content, because we could just as easily say, “well, we're going to run whatever New York tech meetup is broadcasting,” and make that our content for the month. Unless we have the social aspect, all our members could find that on their own, you know? They don't need us to curate that, or to produce that for them. Because low quality, unedited and unpolished video conferences and stuff like that are painfully hard to watch for extended periods of time compared to high quality, production-level stuff that's been edited and polished and has all the onscreen effects and things like that. On top of the fact that you're competing with other things geographically, you're also competing with other things on the person's computer. So, people will shift their attention to their emails that come in or back to their work that they were working on and things like that. So it's not a one-to-one substitute to what existed before. Jorge: You talked about the peer-to-peer connections as the icing, but it almost sounds to me like that's the cake and the content is there to give the community a reason to come together. Brian: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And you know, the other… I guess you could say it's sort of the sprinkles were the fact that you could meet the person who came in as the expert before, right? You know, and the 30 seconds of email or business card exchanges with that person or asking them a question specific to your business. You know, like so-and-so grew Wealthfront, so how does his experience relate to my business doing something else — the new Venmo or whatever it is. That's often more valuable than hearing the person's biography, or their pre-cooked-up slides or whatever it is. And so, I think that's a big challenge that's still yet to be solved though for most of these in-person meetups and stuff like that. Networks Jorge: When I reached out to you about being on the show, I mentioned that I believe that we're heading into a period where community building is going to be very important. I feel like we need to find ways of coming together as a society and we are having to do so online especially now, because of the pandemic, and I'm wondering if you have any advice for folks who might be inspired by our conversation and wanting to bring their local community closer together. Brian: So, I think there's a number of layers to this conversation, and it depends on whether it's a macro-level or a micro-level that you're focused on and also whether it's a commercial versus non-commercial. My thesis is that companies that are trying to build brands, all of these D2C companies, the ones that are going to be really successful long-term are the ones that build communities around their products. Because for many products and services, there isn't much of a moat that defends your business from the next competitor that's slightly shinier or slightly cheaper or has better manufacturing or whatever the case may be. And so, community is such a great way to build loyalty in your product and your consumers. And that's also I think important for physical communities too. I think the analog is like you see companies that build strong bonds between their employees end up having higher retention rates, lower churn, and things like that because people feel like the company is connected to them. In cases of geographic communities like Miami, one of our underlying theses here with Refresh is that the more bonds and the more connections that people can make, the less likely they are to leave physically. And if they do leave physically, they'll at least maintain connections with the local community. I guess it's like Metcalfe's law, right? The more nodes there are in the network, the stronger the network becomes. The more individual connections you can create amongst your customers or amongst your constituents, depending on what type of community it is, you know, the stronger the bond can be. You see this in small ethnic and religious and other communities where the communities are super tight because everybody knows each other, and everybody knows who knows each other and who's the right person to introduce to if you need something, or to call. And so I think that's becoming more and more relevant in whether it's technology communities or design communities or different areas of focus, you know? These tribes, the more tight-knit the tribes can be, the higher likelihood they are to survive, and to thrive. Closing Jorge: I'm glad you brought up Metcalfe's law. I think this sounds like a good place to wrap the conversation, this notion of stronger bonds. Thank you for bringing it up. Where can folks find you, Brian? Brian: I usually point people to my Twitter, which is Brian Breslin, @BrianBreslin on Twitter. Or you can find my website, brianbreslin.com, which has links to my Twitter and all these other things, and my occasional blog posts whenever I feel like it. Jorge: Well, thank you very much. I'm going to include the links to both in our show notes. Brian: Perfect. Jorge, thank you so much for having me. Jorge: Oh, thank you for being here. Brian: My pleasure.

 Discover how to create the best virtual experience for you and your clients especially in the midst of COVID and the slow degradation of offline events Learn how to move your offline event online and discover the limitless features that lies behind it Find out how technology can help you make a deeper connection and understanding with your team or clients through a dynamic virtual experience Resources/Links: Check out Brian's Website: brianfanzo.com/virtualevents Summary In the midst of this pandemic, are you looking for a way to host your events? Do you want to change and bring the offline to the online world? Do you want to know how you could still host your event while making it a more dynamic experience for your clients or team, virtually? Are you ready to create a dynamic virtual experience? Brian Fanzo is a digital futurist, virtual keynote speaker and podcaster helping brands and leaders find synergy between tech and humanity. In this episode, Brian shares his insights on how you could make your offline events online. He also shares how virtual events are the future and how it can be limitless and can provide a better and more dynamic experience to you, your clients, and team, virtually, especially in the midst of COVID. Check out these episode highlights: 02:02 - Brian's ideal client: “Ideal client is anyone trying to leverage virtual to reach their, you know, new audience in this new way. So, it's either moving at an offline event online or reinventing, you know, a way to connect with your online audience.” 02:20 - Problem Brian helps solve: “The problem I solve is really helping reinvent what a virtual experience is. We take something from offline and put it online. You're competing with YouTube, Netflix, and all the other tools that are out there. I really try to help really shift their focus and have a new perspective on what's possible and creating a virtual experience.” 03:09 - Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Brian: “So before COVID, this was an interesting one, because, before COVID, it was usually there was a disconnect between brands or their clients or customers that they interacted with offline, and then a real disconnect online on the relationship building, the scale, the marketing.” 05:15 - Common mistakes that people make before they find Brian's solution: “One of the biggest mistakes is that we try to take what we do offline, and just repurpose it online.” 06:11 - Brian's Valuable Free Action (VFA): “A big step is to think about how you can create a participatory element. And what I mean by that is, rather than talking at your audience, virtually, how can I allow them to participate in the conversation and even direct where you're going with your content?” 07:02 - Brian's Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Check out Brian's Website: brianfanzo.com/virtualevents 07:54 - Q: What is the future of virtual events? A: When we've talked webinars, we talked virtual, I think virtual is going to be around forever. I think we are having a newfound focus on virtual. I mean, webinars have been successful and very valuable for 10 plus years. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “I don't believe everything needs to be interactive, but I do believe we can make everything feel participatory.” -Brian FanzoClick To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)

 Discover how to create the best virtual experience for you and your clients especially in the midst of COVID and the slow degradation of offline events Learn how to move your offline event online and discover the limitless features that lies behind it Find out how technology can help you make a deeper connection and understanding with your team or clients through a dynamic virtual experience Resources/Links: Check out Brian’s Website: brianfanzo.com/virtualevents Summary In the midst of this pandemic, are you looking for a way to host your events? Do you want to change and bring the offline to the online world? Do you want to know how you could still host your event while making it a more dynamic experience for your clients or team, virtually? Are you ready to create a dynamic virtual experience? Brian Fanzo is a digital futurist, virtual keynote speaker and podcaster helping brands and leaders find synergy between tech and humanity. In this episode, Brian shares his insights on how you could make your offline events online. He also shares how virtual events are the future and how it can be limitless and can provide a better and more dynamic experience to you, your clients, and team, virtually, especially in the midst of COVID. Check out these episode highlights: 02:02 - Brian’s ideal client: “Ideal client is anyone trying to leverage virtual to reach their, you know, new audience in this new way. So, it's either moving at an offline event online or reinventing, you know, a way to connect with your online audience.” 02:20 - Problem Brian helps solve: “The problem I solve is really helping reinvent what a virtual experience is. We take something from offline and put it online. You're competing with YouTube, Netflix, and all the other tools that are out there. I really try to help really shift their focus and have a new perspective on what's possible and creating a virtual experience.” 03:09 - Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Brian: “So before COVID, this was an interesting one, because, before COVID, it was usually there was a disconnect between brands or their clients or customers that they interacted with offline, and then a real disconnect online on the relationship building, the scale, the marketing.” 05:15 - Common mistakes that people make before they find Brian’s solution: “One of the biggest mistakes is that we try to take what we do offline, and just repurpose it online.” 06:11 - Brian’s Valuable Free Action (VFA): “A big step is to think about how you can create a participatory element. And what I mean by that is, rather than talking at your audience, virtually, how can I allow them to participate in the conversation and even direct where you're going with your content?” 07:02 - Brian’s Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Check out Brian’s Website: brianfanzo.com/virtualevents 07:54 - Q: What is the future of virtual events? A: When we've talked webinars, we talked virtual, I think virtual is going to be around forever. I think we are having a newfound focus on virtual. I mean, webinars have been successful and very valuable for 10 plus years. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “I don't believe everything needs to be interactive, but I do believe we can make everything feel participatory.” -Brian FanzoClick To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland 00:09 Greetings everyone and another very warm welcome to yet another edition of Marketing The Invisible. My name is Tom Poland, joined today by Brian Fanzo. Brian, good day from down under. A very warm welcome, sir. Where are you hanging out? Brian Fanzo 00:22 Thanks so much for having me. I'm hanging out just outside Washington DC in Northern Virg...

Darin Fowler - Josephine County Commissioner Josephine County Commissioner Darin Fowler has been a Grants Pass native for nearly all of his life. Join us as Darin talks about his life and times in Southern Oregon, to leaving his successful electrical business to run for office. As well as current events such as COVID-19 and the importance of getting kids back to school. Transcription Brian: Darin Fowler has lived in Josephine county for 47 years. Starting a successful business and raising his family here. For 25 years he has volunteered as a coach, Sunday school teacher and in local government. Darin Fowler, welcome to Grants Pass VIP. Darin: Good morning. How are you? Brian: Doing good, doing good. Really appreciate being here, just so the rest of you know, we're in the end of July of 2020, still dealing with the effects of the COVID crisis. Besides that, let's get straight into who you are and what you're all about. Where would everybody know you from Darin? Darin: Well, I've lived here almost my whole life. My parents moved here when I was four in 1970. A lot of people I know from school, found my wife at the schools here. And then my kids went to the same schools. I bought the house across the street from the one I grew up in. My kids ended up with the same school, same teachers. And now my grandson lives six blocks away and he goes to the same school so it's been really fun. So you might know me as a soccer coach or a soccer referee, along the way I did a lot of that. Basketball coach for kids. And then I've been electrician for 33 years. So most people would know me from my electrician profession. And I still have that business. I like to put in a few plugs on the weekend. But then 12 years ago, I started getting involved in local politics. So some people know me because of that. I was on the city council, right after they recalled five city councilors, you know, around '08 or '09, right in there. My two fellow Commissioners in this county office, were part of this group that got in on that five recalled city councilors, and we got in and I spent 10 years over at the city three as a city councilor, and six and a half as mayor. Now I have this full time job as Josephine County Commission. Now I've met new people that just know me as a county commissioner. It's been interesting staying in the same community, find a way to make a living, and then serving my community as a public servant. It's been really fun. Brian: So ever since originally moving here, have you lived here the whole time? Darin: Almost. Yep. After high school here, you kind of get that itch, I wonder what it's like outside of Grants Pass? And I got to get the heck out of here. I was fortunate enough to friend was going to San Diego. So I moved in with him in San Diego and learn how to be an electrician down there in San Diego was a pretty fun place to be 18 to 21. We did have some fun, but when it's time to have a family and settle into the normal family unit like I did, I found out they were actually paying more for electricians in Grants Pass and they weren't San Diego, because there's a very restrictive licensing law in Oregon that California didn't have. I came up here and was making good money for a young man. And it's been a really excellent trade. It's fun to know something. Brian: other than the career, what other reasons is there to come to Grants Pass and stay in Grants Pass? Darin: Well and I always say that if you could find a way to make a living here. Who wouldn't want to live here? It's just beautiful. The weather, it's the climate. The coast is close. Mountains and rivers are all around you. If you can find a way to make a living here, you would love to live here and I have enjoyed it because your kids feel safe out in the street in front of your house. There's the Boys and Girls Club in the basketball and the soccer and baseball and all those sports.

Born in Grants Pass, Lowell Gibson has run NiceBadge in town for the past 20 years. An active member in the local community, Lowell took sometime this summer to talk with our host Brian Pombo about the challenges NiceBadge has faced since the start of COVID-19 and how they've adjusted. A big thank you to Lowell for being on the show and for being our first interview on the podcast. Checkout NiceBadge ➡️https://www.nicebadge.com/ Transcription Brian: Lowell Gibson is president of NiceBadge. A 5th generation Southern Oregonian. A missionary kid raised in Japan 14 years. The chair of BR&E, VP of Gospel Rescue Mission Foundation Board. Treasurer of the SOREDI Board. He loves Southern Oregon and his community. Loves riding his Harley, fly fishing on the Rogue, golfing, floating the Rogue. He's also extremely pro business. I'm very happy to have him here today on the Grants Pass VIP podcast. Thanks for coming on Lowell. Lowell: Thanks Brian. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Brian: So who are you and where would people know you from? Lowell: Lol. I don't think I've been on the wanted posters in the post office lately, so that's good. I bought the business here in 2000. I was born here, then I raised in Japan, came back for a while, left to go to college. Finally came back in 2000, bought the business and I've been here since. I think the community that it is we all get to know each other in different circles. Within the business community. I've been involved with the chamber with a lot of pro business and economic development organizations, of course, Rotary and a few other places like that. Brian: Why Grants Pass of all places in the world? You moved back here in 2000, why here? Lowell: The simple answer is, I like Grants Pass. It's my hometown. It's a good place to raise a family. I was up in the Salem area, and just the weather up there is a little bit gray. It may not necessarily rain, but you know, down here, it's either going to rain on you or the sun shines out and I kind of like that. And like I said, it was a great place to raise my kids. And it's a small community so you get to know a lot of people. You know, there's a lot of good in that. Brian: Tell me a little bit about why you bought this business? Lowell: Yeah, I used to be in the restaurant business. I own the restaurant and heating and cooling, I sold insurance for a while. This business was owned by my mom. She had bought it in 85. And by 2000, she had grown it to a business that had about 13 employees and she was wanting to retire. I was looking for something different to do at the time. She said, "why don't you to take a look at it, see if it's something you'd like." So I did and of course, moving back to Grants Pass really appealed to me. So I bought the business, moved my family back down here and my mom retired. Here it is, you know, 20 years later still here. Brian: You've been doing this for 20 years. Is it an industry or a position that you recommend to others at all? Lowell: Wow. So when I bought the business is much smaller, the company was, and we make name badges. It's bulk of our business, but we do other things like promotional products and signage and sandblasting. There is definitely a lot of that being done around the country. With the internet, we were able to start selling nationally a little bit easier with our website and you know, using SEO. To grow it, you have to have a lot of customers because what we're selling is smaller items. So we have over 40,000 business customers across the country. And it takes that many just to do the volume we do and keep 27 people employed. It's doable. I think the hardest part is to grow it from nothing….like my mom, she took it from nothing, you know, one employee, part time employee to 16 employees. That was probably the hardest part of the company, that initial growth phase. For me,

Imagine how different you’d be financially during the economic hardship if you had a Safe Tank. What’s a Safe Tank? Basically, it’s a place you can put your money that is protected, has guaranteed growth, even when you need to use funds for it, and you can use those funds anytime, guaranteed, for any purpose, without incurring taxes or penalties. In this episode of a WTR Discussion, we talk about the current economic turmoil (characteristics of which are similar to other times of economic hardships). We also talk about what a Safe Tank is and why and how to use it. Also, we take you through 5 different, economic scenario stories, any of which could be you during these, or any, uncertain times. Have Questions about what a Safe Tank is? How to use it? How to set one up for yourself?Contact us anytime for your questions. Currently you can reach me, the host, Kevin Dumont at the following email: kevin@wealthtacticrebels.comNOTES: [00:25] Kevin: Today, we have our co-host Brian Dumont. Today, we're going to be talking about how to survive financial turmoil with a safe tank. [01:22] We're going to touch on the market volatility and how it affects your accounts, define what a safe tank is and why you'd want one, and you'll learn about how 5 different common financial tools and situations affect you during financial hardships and how you can begin to start building your safe tank today, which will put you in better financial control the next time there's turmoil [01:46] Let's start with talking a little about the market volatility and what's going on with our listeners today [02:20] Brian: There have been tremendous swings on a daily basis and we just don't know what's coming next and uncertainty is the worst thing for the market[03:13] If you're getting close to retirement or are already in it, you know that you can't rely on what your projections were just a few weeks ago. Things have changed dramatically [04:10] Kevin: Wealth Tactic Rebels, we're trying to help you out today with our talk about the volatility in the world and how you can financially survive it. Reach out to us on whatever the platform is that you listen to this on, give us a rate and review and let us know what you found inspirational. What resonated with you about today's discussion? [04:32] So we have what we call a personal economic model that we use as the model for how money flows. In there, we have what we call a two tank system, and the part of that that's today's discussion is the safe tank. Brian, can we expand talking about those tanks? [04:50] Brian: So the easy one to talk about first of all is the investment tank. Most people have investments[04:57] We put money somewhere with the expectation that it will grow overtime (that's why we're willing to take risk and put the money in there because we want some kind of reward) [05:13] There are two types of primary risk: market risk (the ability for your balance to decrease due to the market) and tax risk (government is in control of this) [06:02] By contrast, and this is where the safe tank comes in, is that we have done our best to position your money in a place where we have eliminated market risk to as little as possible if not any, so that we know that your account can only grow linearly (has to grow better than the inflation rate) [07:40] The main point of having a safe tank is it can only grow, and it must be liquid [07:50] Kevin: Great, so now we have defined what an investment tank is and what a safe tank is. Now comes the fun part. We're going to have a "Zoom dinner meeting with 5 friends". The subject of how they're dealing with this financial storm comes up in our talk with our 5 friends[08:18] Jim: I am one of those guys who likes to put his money in the market, I'm a stocks and bond kind of guy. I follow it every day and it's been painful to see how much I've lost in the last few weeks. I'm mostly sitting in cash waiting for things to...

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Brian: Hey Fanny.Fanny: Hey.Brian: So we're asking each other questions about our countries, and I have a couple of questions about China for you.Fanny: Sure, go ahead.Brian: So the first thing I was looking to know was, what's the best time to visit China? what time of year?Fanny: Oh yeah, I think ... you know because China has four seasons ... it's really cold in the winter for, I mean because I come from the north part of China. So if you wanna go to China I think the best season should be summer.Brian: Summertime.Fanny: Summertime.Brian: OK, so maybe like June or July is a good time?Fanny: I think July is the best time to go, because August there will be a lot of tourists there ... so July will be the best time because you can see the best view and there will not be that crowded.Brian: Now does it rain a lot in July? I've heard there's, like, rainy seasons?Fanny: In the north part ... it doesn't rain that much but in the south part it does.Brian: So I should probably bring an umbrella and a raincoat?Fanny: Oh yeah, I think so.Brian: OK.Fanny: Which city do you want to visit?Brian: Well that's actually a good question. You know I've never been to China and I don't know so much about it. What would be the most interesting place that you can recommend?Fanny: It depends on what kind of view you want to see, what kind of ... you know, especially in the north part, there are a lot of historical cities like Beijing, Xian you can visit. You can see the old China because there are other ... for example there is the Summer Palace. Have you ever heard of that?Brian: I've heard of it but I don't actually know what it is.Fanny: Yeah, it's just a palace which the old Chinese king lived there. It's a very good place to visit because you can see the long history you know because China has a long history, so you can see that kind of thing.Brian: So this is a pretty popular tourist place ...Fanny: Very popular. And also there is the Great Wall in BeijingBrian: Ah, I do know the Great Wall, I've heard of that one.Fanny: Yeah, so I think a lot of foreigners are very interested in the Great Wall, so maybe you can go there and see ...Brian: OK, that sounds pretty good ...Fanny: .. then maybe you don't need the umbrella thenBrian: Fair enough.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Brian: Hey Fanny.Fanny: Hey.Brian: So we're asking each other questions about our countries, and I have a couple of questions about China for you.Fanny: Sure, go ahead.Brian: So the first thing I was looking to know was, what's the best time to visit China? what time of year?Fanny: Oh yeah, I think ... you know because China has four seasons ... it's really cold in the winter for, I mean because I come from the north part of China. So if you wanna go to China I think the best season should be summer.Brian: Summertime.Fanny: Summertime.Brian: OK, so maybe like June or July is a good time?Fanny: I think July is the best time to go, because August there will be a lot of tourists there ... so July will be the best time because you can see the best view and there will not be that crowded.Brian: Now does it rain a lot in July? I've heard there's, like, rainy seasons?Fanny: In the north part ... it doesn't rain that much but in the south part it does.Brian: So I should probably bring an umbrella and a raincoat?Fanny: Oh yeah, I think so.Brian: OK.Fanny: Which city do you want to visit?Brian: Well that's actually a good question. You know I've never been to China and I don't know so much about it. What would be the most interesting place that you can recommend?Fanny: It depends on what kind of view you want to see, what kind of ... you know, especially in the north part, there are a lot of historical cities like Beijing, Xian you can visit. You can see the old China because there are other ... for example there is the Summer Palace. Have you ever heard of that?Brian: I've heard of it but I don't actually know what it is.Fanny: Yeah, it's just a palace which the old Chinese king lived there. It's a very good place to visit because you can see the long history you know because China has a long history, so you can see that kind of thing.Brian: So this is a pretty popular tourist place ...Fanny: Very popular. And also there is the Great Wall in BeijingBrian: Ah, I do know the Great Wall, I've heard of that one.Fanny: Yeah, so I think a lot of foreigners are very interested in the Great Wall, so maybe you can go there and see ...Brian: OK, that sounds pretty good ...Fanny: .. then maybe you don't need the umbrella thenBrian: Fair enough.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast where we focus a lot on value-add, commercial real estate investing and we usually talk to commercial real estate operators who have been very active buying deals nowadays.  Today, I have Brian Murray. So if you have not heard about Brian Murray, he's the author of the best-selling and award-winning book: Crushing It in Apartments and Commercial Real Estate. And he owns almost 700 units right now on his own and I think out of 700, 600 of it is apartments and 100 units are on office sites. Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: I'm really happy to be here, James. Thanks for having me. James: Really happy to have you here. And so tell me about, how did you go from 0 to 600 multifamily 0 to 700 asset classes on your own without syndication?   Brian: Yeah, well, you know, I started 12 years ago and I'm located in Upstate New York. That's quite a bit different market than New York City. But my first property was an office building and it was a distressed office building and from that very first deal, I did a lot of value-adds. Frankly, I really didn't know what I was doing, I was kind of figuring stuff out as I went along but I progressively made that property perform better over a couple of years and added a ton of value. On that deal, I assumed the mortgage and on my second deal, I did an owner/finance situation. It was another property that was half full, I filled it up and refinanced out of both of those and bought three more properties and followed that path the entire way. Which is find well-located properties that were not well managed or had some other large value-add component, exercise that value add and then refinance, take cash out and buy more properties. And that's the exact path that I followed to get to where I'm at today. James: That's crazy, which is good. I mean, that's the model that, I mean, it's an absolute value-add model, which is basically the theme of this podcast. And so did you buy and then improve it and then refinance the money out or did you sell it and I didn't get that far, can you clarify that? Brian: Yeah. So I refinance the money out. I am primarily buying hold, still to this day. But especially in the first 10 years, I think I sold one or two properties, smaller properties, for the most part, during that time. I am selling some of my smaller properties right now to redeploy those funds into larger properties, but my strategy has really been buying hold. James: Awesome. Awesome. So before we go further, I want to clarify about your book, Crushing It. I mean, I remember asking this question to you when we met face-to-face. So did Gary take the 'Crushing' name from you or you took it from him? Which one is that?  Brian: You know, so his book, Crushing It, came out about a year after mine but he launched a book called Crush It prior to when mine came out. But he took the Crushing It and you know, but that's fine. It doesn't matter. It's all good.  James: Well, it must be a good name because both of you are like a best seller, you know, in your own domain. So awesome. So right now what's your plan? I mean you own this many units on your own and what's your plan right now?  Brian: So right now, I'm really focused on diversifying. I was really excited to do my first Mastermind, which was last year, which is how you and I met and I met some great people at that Mastermind and highly recommend that to other people; surround yourself with other folks that are doing what you're doing. But when I went off to this Mastermind, it was really eye-opening for me because pretty much everybody there was doing syndication and it was a model that was really new for me and I just learned a ton about what people were doing.  And my model has worked great for me up to this point, but I've reached a size, we're growing purely organically. It's becoming more challenging to maintain that pace of growth. I think also with valuations at a higher point, it's more and more challenging each year to pull that much value-add out with refis. I think another factor that's come into play is I've been very, very dedicated to putting every dollar that I've earned back into my real estate. That's been a been a big part of how I've done what I've done is to continuously reinvest back in. As a result of that, to this point, I've been living fairly frugally and you know at a certain point, you want to not have to put every dollar back in but you know, to maintain that growth rate, I've got to look at other options. I also want to diversify geographically because most of my properties are in one location. And so I'm in the middle of my first syndication right now and I've met so many good people that now, I'm developing partners and looking at new markets and it's very exciting for me. I love to learn, I love to try new things and getting into these other markets and, you know, meeting accomplished people like yourself, it's very motivating. So I'm just super excited about it.  James: Yeah, it's eye-opening when you go and talk to different people who are doing the same level as you are doing much more higher level because you can see a lot of different thought processes and how people do things. So why are you moving towards syndication? I mean, you own like so many units on your own, can you go into a bit more detail on why do you think syndication is going to be beneficial for you right now in this market cycle as well or on your investment side?  Brian: Well, you know syndication, it does open up a lot more opportunities in terms of size. So for example, right now, I'm looking very closely at an apartment complex that's approximately 300 units. It's in a market that's new for me that I've been doing a lot of research on and that would be a real challenge to try to pull off on my own. It really wouldn't be possible right now. So the property that I've purchased strictly on my own, without raising any outside money, I did last year, it was 126 units and you know to try to purchase something that's 300 plus units that wouldn't be possible for me right now. So it's pretty exciting and I think another thing is I really enjoy working with the idea of doing some projects with partners and getting into some of these new markets. So, there's another piece of it that's kind of exciting is, I've reached a point where I've done pretty well for myself and the idea of helping other investors who want to put their money to work to achieve their goals, I think that's going to be rewarding too. That if a project does really well that, it's all those limited partners that come in that can then improve their lives through their investment as well. And if I can be a part of that, I think I'll find that very rewarding.  James: Okay, that's awesome. So scalability is important and you think of helping others as well to make money, especially I think other investors or other GPs who needs your skills, I would say? Brian:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's one of the things that's great too is I've found that it's meeting these other people that are doing it, I've got a different experience. So just like I'm learning from people like you, I'm finding that partners I can bring some different perspectives and value to the table as well. So you always want to partner with people that have strengths in areas that are different from you and that's what makes a strong team. James: Absolutely, especially in commercial real estate because the number of knobs that you can tune, there are so many knobs and especially like in multifamily because it's very management intensive compared to the triple net, other commercial properties. Multi-family is very management intensive and it gives a lot of ways to make more money or to scale down or to scale up. Even though you'd be really, really skilled at that but it just gives you a lot more opportunity. And the lease is one year term or six months term; you can quickly raise or reduce rents, it gives you a lot more fungibility, I would say. I mean, you have like SAS, we talked, in the beginning. You have like 600 units multifamily and 100 office space? Brian: Yes.  James: So can we go a bit more detail into the office? What kind of office is it and how did you strategically balance within the 600 and 100 office? Is it optimistic or what did you see and why did you do it?  Brian: So I started off with the office and actually, my second property was retail and so, starting on that commercial side was really interesting. I think one of the things that did for me is really emphasized my focus on customer service and customer care with tenants. And when I tried my first multifamily, I think that there were differences but they're also a lot of similarities. So the value-added approach that I was taking to office retail worked just as well with multifamily. And our focus on really taking care of our tenants as our customers really served us really well in that area also. Over time, as recently as two or three years ago, we had reached a point where up to that point we had more office and Retail and then about two years ago, I would say, we were 50/50 and now we're closer to two thirds, maybe even 70% multifamily with the rest commercial in terms of the makeup of our portfolio. So as time went by, we've really gravitated toward multifamily and that's our 100% focus right now. I think the biggest thing is that there's a number of things we like about multi-family. From our experience with commercial, you've always got a little bit more risk because you tend to have, not always, but you often will have tenants that comprise a disproportionately large percentage of your income and that can leave you really vulnerable if somebody leaves. So, on more than one occasion, we've had a commercial property where someone that takes up more than half of the space in that property, leaves unexpectedly. And then you've got with one tenant leaving, you have a property that is negative cash flow. And if you don't have a portfolio in place to support that, that can be devastating and it's really not fun even if you have a portfolio to perform it. And then when you go to backfill that space, it's more challenging in commercial properties because you oftentimes have to find the exact right tenant for that space, for that location, for the tenant mix and the property, for the configuration of the floor plan. There's a lot of things that you know, different commercial tenants are looking for.  If you just adjust the rents up and down or maybe offer some concessions, a lot of times, the market doesn't immediately react to that. So turning that dial like you do in multifamily, you have less control. So if you're looking for a particular type of commercial tenant, it could be, it's not unusual for us to sit on a vacant space for one two or more years before the right tenant comes along and fits in and takes that space. With multifamily, you've got those dials that you can turn and say, Hey, you know, we're going to run a special. We're going to bump rents, we're going to drop rents and you usually will see a pretty quick reaction from the market to the changes that you make and from my perspective, that's better.  You always want to have more control and the ability to adjust with your market, adjust to combat your competition and different things like that. And frankly, we've enjoyed working with the tenants. I think there's a perception out there that a lot of people would love to invest in commercial because they think they have this idea that working with white collar tenants would be much better, wouldn't have the problems but in our experience, they can be more challenging. They can be more demanding and sometimes even unreasonable with what they're looking for and you don't usually find that as much with the residential tenants in multifamily. We do primarily workforce housing and the people that we deal with there, tend to be good down to earth people and reasonable. So we appreciate that.  James: And when you talk about office, this is the normal office tenants, I guess?  Brian: Yeah full-spectrum, mostly professional tenants. We've got plenty of medical tenants. We have lawyers, accountants, all types, we've got not-for-profit offices, engineers and architects that would pretty much any type of white-collar professionals. James: Got it. That's very interesting. So when was the aha moment that, hey, I should do multifamily because you are focusing a lot on office, what was that triggering moment where you say, okay, I may need to look at this multi-family? Brian:  Well, I don't know if there was a specific moment. I think it happened gradually over time. When we had about 50/50 multifamily and Commercial, I think one of the big things was watching the performance of the two halves of the portfolio and seeing which half was performing better and part of it had to do with the types of value-add projects we were finding and I thought we were better able to execute on the value-adds on the multifamily side. And that portion of our portfolio just kept outperforming the commercial side and I just saw in the market that we're in, more opportunity there and I felt like it was more stable income based. So, I think I think it just happened gradually over time and you kind of tend to slowly move in the direction that's performing well and where the needs are in your Marketplace. James:  Got it. So all the deals that you have done on multifamily, how did you choose? I mean all these deals are in Upstate, New York, is that right? Brian: Yes. James: So you may not choose the city because that's where you live, the area. But how did you select the submarket? Okay, this deal is good in this submarket, what are the parameters that you looked at When you look at a deal in multi-family? Brian: So, we have a really close familiarity with the subtleties of the market and so it's fairly nuanced like there's not one overarching thing. One of the primary drivers of the market where we are is not that far away is a fairly large military base. And so one of the factors that we look at is, well, we definitely welcome military tenants, we have shied away from the properties that are closer to the military base and tend to have a really high percentage of military population. That's just because there's so much turnover, lenders are less excited about lending those properties because they know that long-term, there could be downsizing. A base could close, there's exposure with that. So we have gravitated within our region to the areas that are maybe we will have some military but not be all military and into the communities where people want to live, in the parts of the city that we feel are strong and good safe locations and convenient locations for the major employers in the area. James: Got it. Got it. And on average right now, what is the price per door in that market? Because I never talk to anybody from New York who's buying multifamily. I mean, Upstate, New York,  New York City, but in general, can you give us some guideline on price per door? What cap rated stabilize deals are being bought right now? Brian: Yes, absolutely. So it's a really, really wide range. So that's what I would say at first. The most recent stabilized property that we purchased we paid about 60,000 a door. There are properties selling in the area, 80,000 plus per door, not that often but a lot of the properties we've got, we've purchased a couple of decent sized properties at auction. We've purchased a lot of distressed properties.  The 126 units that we purchased last year, we paid in the 40s per door and that's pretty low for this area actually, but also the occupancy was below 60% when we bought it and it had a lot of deferred maintenance. So I do feel like we got a fair deal and a good deal on that because there was so much upside but there was a reason that it was priced that low. And so you can come along properties in this area that have low price point sometimes even down into the 30s per door, but usually, there's a reason why they might be in severe distress. But for stabilized properties, I think you're mostly looking at maybe 50 to 70 a door.  James: Okay. You also mentioned that you're looking at other markets now?  Brian: Yes. James: And why is that and what're your criteria to look for in other markets?  Brian: So the number one reason is really a risk management type of approach. Where anybody who's come in and taken a close look at our business and one point even a few years back, I had some graduate students come in and they analyzed it and everybody said, hey, you're kind of crazy. You've got all your properties concentrated right here in this one city and now they're all within maybe half an hour drive of that City and there's a lot of risks involved to that.   So if that City that I focused on starts to decline or say that military base that's not that far away, if they downsize then that all affects my portfolio. So I've known for a long time that it would be wise to diversify geographically and it's time to do that. Another factor is frankly, this is not a huge City. It's not a big area that I'm in and we've got limited opportunities for growth here. There's a limited number of properties that come onto the market and realistically, it's time for us to look to other places. So it's a variety of things. James: So let's say you're looking at a new city, a city A and a city B, what do you look for in that city that you think is going to be appealing to you?  Brian: Well, I think there's a variety of different factors. Probably the number one thing that makes the city appealing is job growth, job creation. Being located in Upstate New York, it's not a strong area for job growth. There are pros and cons to being in a market that's undesirable. So I have less competition. I can buy things at much higher cap rates and I can get properties to cash flow better if I have less competition and higher cap rates. So, there's sometimes you can look at it and say, hey, if you're in a market that's less desirable, sometimes you're getting properties at a great deal and there's something to be said for that. But as I look to new markets, I'm trying to find something where cap rates haven't dropped too far and you can get a reasonable return but you've got that benefit of healthy growth in population and jobs. But I think because I'm looking for more geographic to looking for a market that's going to show more stability, it's on an uptrend and just like any other place, no matter what market I'm looking at, I've realized over time just how critical the specific location with any city is.  So almost any City has their good parts and the bad parts and so you could take any market that you choose and break it down into all different, more and less appealing locations. And so, I wouldn't just throw and say, hey, this one city is great, even though the population is growing and you and I talked about a property not that long ago that you are familiar with the location and you very wisely were like, oh, that's not the right deal. It might be a good city, but that's not the right part of the city. James: Correct. So, I mean, you are sitting in Upstate New York, you looked at the entire nation. Can you give us the top three cities that you think that you want to delve in?   James: Brian, so you are sitting in Upstate New York, and you looked at the entire nation, you know how multifamily works because you own 600 on your own. So you just briefly outline what are the things that you look for in a city. So can you name like top three cities that you think that you want to be involved in that you think has a strong growth story?  Brian: Well, it's a work in progress for sure. And what I would say is sort of the candidates that I've narrowed it down to the commonality would be they tend to be the places that people are migrating to and being in Upstate New York where a lot of people are leaving the area, I want to look toward the places they're going.           And so, primarily in the Southeast, pretty much our candidates or everything from starting in probably North Carolina going down to Florida and you know all the way over to maybe the little bit in Texas, but I think Georgia is an interesting market that a lot of people are pursuing. I'm partnering on a project in Kentucky right now and we're looking at North Carolina and there are some very attractive markets in Florida as well.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Before I want to go into the deal level analysis that you do, I want to quickly ask this question because you know, it's very unique to you because you had your own deals and now you're going into syndication, right? So what do you think are the skills needed from yourself when you are having your own deals, where you can skip a distribution or whatever happened to the deal is your own problem. So now you're going into syndication, where it involves a lot more people. What do you think is a few skills that syndicators need to be successful in syndication? Brian: Sure. I mean I would say start a start with one of the big ones which is something that I don't have, which is an investor base and that's a whole job unto itself. Over the years doing what I've been doing and getting some acknowledgments for that, I had a lot of people approach me over the years and say, hey, you know, can I invest and I never took them up on that and now I'm doing that. But what I've realized is in getting to know all these folks that are out there that there's a lot of people who are interested in partnering with me who already have those investor bases and have that skill set of managing those investors and taking care of all aspects of that.  So at this point, I'm primarily thinking that I bring more value in the weighing on the underwriting and the property and identifying all the value-add opportunities and making sure that people look at it as more than a spreadsheet because there's so much more. I toured a property last week and was able to uncover quite a few things. The broker that was there. I was one of the last people, they had about 40 tours and I came through and identified some significant value-add opportunities that the broker said no one else picked up on. And I think that that's something I didn't discuss but we've managed all of our own properties that whole time and so, the knowledge that you get from that just brings so much better of analysis to a deal to make sure you're vetting it properly, you're not overpaying, you're also not underpaying and that there might be value there that you're not realizing. That some of the assumptions that you're making for rent growth are real and can actually be feasible for implementation. And so, you know, those are some of the things that I bring and the experience and having the portfolio I have may give lenders a lot of comfort. And so, I'm recognizing that, hey, I could focus on my strengths and bring some things to a partnership and take those areas that I don't have and other people might and partner up. So if someone's going to do it on their own, they've got to have a pretty broad skill set and that's a challenge, to have the operational knowledge and bring that side and also have the people skills and the investor relationships, it's not easy. I have a lot of respect for people that are doing it all. James: Absolutely. So you are two operators, where you underwrite deals, you understand the operation and you're doing your own asset management. You're missing the investor base creation side of it, which I think you are either partnering or slowly building that up so which is awesome. For me, the operators are at the top of the food chain because they are the backbone of the whole deal. They know what's happening in terms of the rents, how many percents of rent increase is happening on each unit? How many units are being turned? What is the make ready period, what's the delinquency? What is the idling unit period? That's a lot of parameters in the multi-family operation which can be optimized and if you know that very well, your underwriting can be very, very solid, I would say.  Brian: And I think you also bring a reality check. I think that the folks that are operating in the syndication space that don't have as much operating experience, it's easy to look at numbers and assumptions in a spreadsheet and it's challenging to actually recognize what that means in terms of the actual human beings who are there living in the apartments, what it means for the contractors and the property managers and whether what you're assuming is even practical. I look at a spreadsheet and I'm looking at it realizing, hey, you know, I looked at it once a day and I told somebody I'm like, do you understand how much drama will be involved in this? So if you haven't done that you don't know. And sometimes that translates into you might need to maybe tone back your rent growth or you might need to say, hey, maybe we implement something like this over time so that we don't have an all-out rebellion on our hands. So, you know, it's a challenge to bring all those things to the table. James: Yeah, I've seen people who come to me, you know, first few deals and say, oh, this is all bills paid, I'm just going to change it to tenant pay bills. I say, well, that's easy. We can see the value. Well, you do not know how much drama you're going to have there and you might not able to do that on a specific property, a specific location. And they say they want to do them; Utility Bill back, they want to increase the rent, they want to charge covered parking, they want to do laundry increase. So many things they want to do at the same time and I can tell you, they don't have the experience actually. But the thing is, a lot of people have been making money even without all the skills. And I always tell them everybody's a champion in a bull market.  Brian: Exactly, yes. A rising tide lifts all ships, right?  James: Correct. So, people may not look at that skill more in detail or give due consideration to that type of skills where the operation is important, but I think it's important if you want to sustain good rent growth across different market cycles. So coming back to underwriting. So right now you are looking at deals, how many percents of deals do you reject immediately by just looking at it?  Brian: Wow, I would say well over 90%.  James: Okay. So the 10% that you have or what do you look for in that 10%? What do you do? What are the steps that you take to look at that 10%? Brian: You know, I think the very, very first thing I do is I look at the T12. I want to start my analysis of a property by looking at actuals. And then I'm going to base the current situation and the actuals, going to kind of weigh that against my own experience. So, how does the target asking price or the whisper price or whatever they have, how does that compare to the actuals?           And then based on my experience looking through those actuals, what do I see that jumps out at me that might create value? And if you look down through and start looking at the comps and really piecing together this puzzle about, what opportunity is really here? Is the valuation based on something that's completely unrealistic? A lot of times, you'll recognize that some brokers are way better than others at doing a realistic model and pro forma and that's much appreciated. Because you see too many where they'll say, oh, you know, the labor is going to be whatever, $300 a door, and you know, hey, that's crazy. Like it should be 1100 a door or 1000 a door in that market and you know, you'll find out that well, it's been managed by the owner and they don't track the labor. But if you see that it's based on the labor is $2000 a door and you know, hey, we could get that to 900 realistically and still do a good job of maintaining that property, then you start to see an opportunity. It's a combination of running numbers and logical analysis based on experience, is really what I would say it boils down to. James: So in a new market, how would you determine payroll and [12:09unintelligible] on property taxes because this differs by market? Brian: Sure. So all those things are going to vary by market, although many of them will fall within a range. So you're going to say, well, in that market it's going to tend to be higher or lower and I will use my best judgment but if it passes a certain level of scrutiny, that's when you want to really get an established reputable local property manager involved who could look at it and say, okay, for this market specifically, these assumptions you've made are realistic or not realistic. The same thing goes with construction costs they could vary and I can look at it and say, I think that new flooring should be this much but hey, maybe in that market, flooring is much more expensive or maybe it's a lot cheaper. So, you know it's going to be within a certain range, but you just need to figure out how you need to tweak it to get to that market.  James: Got it Got it. Got it. I mean since you have your own property management in your own backyard and now I presume you looking at third partying your property management in this new market, is that correct?  Brian: That's correct.  James: So, what would you think is the most important factor to look at that third party property management company? Brian: Well, at this point, I would say yes, we're relying on third-party property managers. We may eventually consider expanding into new markets or operations, but not doing that right now and evaluating the property managers, it's been a very interesting process. I think you need to look at the full picture. I don't think there's any one thing you can look at. For a project that we're underwriting right now, in evaluating the various property managers, of course, we weigh referrals, you know, that's always good to hear referrals but I think one of the things that are appealing about the property manager that we ended up selecting for this project that we're pursuing is they actually specialize in this specific type of property that we're looking at. So, they have a track record and experience of nearly 10,000 units that are specifically C-Class properties that they've done value-add and executed those successfully. And a fair percentage of those are in the specific market that we're looking at and so there's a lot of things that just lined up. I think if I had to pick the one thing from my interaction with this firm because they toured the property with me as well, but I actually was very impressed with their analysis of our underwriting. They actually went through our assumptions and they toured the property on their own before I got there and gave us their own analysis and without us asking, they also toured the comps and gave us some feedback on that. I was impressed. You could tell that they went out of their way to look at the right things. They looked at the types of things that I would look at and they identified things and based on that write-up, I just said, hey, this is a firm that's experienced. They get it. They did a thorough job. They were professional, they were responsive and you know, it really checked a lot of boxes in terms of giving us an overall sense of comfort with the possibility of working with them. James: Awesome. Awesome. Let's go to a bit more on the value-add side because you have done a lot of value-adds because you buy refi and keep it more long-term. So what is the most valuable value-add multifamily from your experience?  Brian: I would say that the most valuable is it's different for almost every property. If I had to pick, you know, I think that sort of the Big Bang low-hanging fruit tends to be the, I'd say, clean paint landscape, kind of like the surface stuff. If a property is dirty and not well kept and then you make it clean and you put a fresh coat of paint and you landscape it, it can change the entire image of property of fairly modest cost and that can have a huge impact. The rent adjustment is sort of obvious, I think everybody looks at that. I guess big picture if the landlord is way undercharging, of course, you know, that's an obvious big easy one, but one thing that we've ended up doing in a number of cases that is less obvious that people almost never talk about is lowering rents. And in the 126 unit that I mentioned earlier, that's under distress, that's the first thing that we did is we went in and by our assessment, they were trying to charge too much which was a major factor in why the occupancy was so low.  So we immediately went in and cut all the rents and that might seem counterintuitive for a value-add person but over the last six months, we've raised the occupancy 25% and one of the big reasons is we lower the rents and so the net change in terms of the net operating income of that property it skyrocketed by lowering rents. So that also further demonstrates that it really varies, you kind of have to you know. It's sort of like if you look at five different people and say, you know, what change would you make in each person to improve their overall wellness? For some people, they might say stop smoking and some people might say, well, that one needs to eat better so you can't kind of really say well, what's the one thing overall?  James: How did you decide to lower the rent? What was the data that you looked at and decide, okay, I just need to reduce the rent here?  Brian: Well, you know, that's one of the fantastic things when you've got so many properties in one market. You know immediately that based on your other operations that something's off. You know when it's low, you know when it's high, you know when the fees don't match what's present in that market or the concessions don't match.  It becomes very simple. If you're going into a new market, you've got to study those comps and do the best you can and hopefully, tour those comps and do your own homework. But it's one of many advantages of having a concentration of properties in one area. In addition to all the many operational efficiencies that you can have is that you have that market specific knowledge that is there's no substitute for.  James: Got it. Got it. So when you decide to lower the rent, I mean it is a counter-intuitive but I think it makes sense in value-add, especially when you go with that kind of low occupancy. You need to do something to bring up the occupancy because once you bring up the occupancy, you can do a lot of other things. Brian: Exactly. James: You can't do it when the occupancy is low and you're adamant about pushing up the rent. So was your thought process, rather than I leave this unit vacant, that's the biggest loss compared to giving [19:48inaudible] $25 or $30 increase that doesn't make sense.  Brian: Yes. That's right. So, you know that's been one of the strategies that I've adhered to and has worked well; you lower the rents and lease it up and then you make improvements as you go and then you raise rents from there. Nothing more expensive than vacant space. The other piece of that which is an advantage of not syndicating is that I have been able in many cases to fund many of the improvements out of cash flow. So with this particular property, we did lower the rents, but the occupancy has been brought way up. So we've just crossed a threshold where now this property is cash flowing again and all that cash flow is going to be directed right back into making improvements, probably, for the next few years at least. And so, that's a perfect example of well, if you're going to syndicate and you need to pay investors, you really can't be investing all of your cash flow back into a property.  So what do you need to do? You need to raise some money up front to pay for those improvements and not count on cash flow so that you can achieve your investor returns and start to get them their money back.  James: Yeah. That's the one thing different with syndicated deal versus owning your own deals. You don't have to raise so much money so you can take your cash flow and just put it back. With a syndication [21:27crosstalk/inaudible] and you may lose deals because you're competing with somebody who has a lot of money versus somebody who is syndicating.  Brian: That's right. James: It's very interesting. So in terms of, I'm going to your personal side, is there a proud moment in your life or not in your life, toward your real estate career, that you think, I would remember that moment throughout my life until the end; can you describe that moment?  Brian: Oh, wow, you know there's been so many moments, but not all good.  James: No, no, the proudest moment where you think you really made a big impact on something.  Brian: I never really expected this but some of the proudest moments that I've had has been since my book came out and I would have never guessed that that would lead to that but some of the feedback that I've gotten from readers that they've shared with me that it's changed their lives that they started into investing and have already built portfolios. And to see the direct link between the book and people, you know, really making improvements in their lives has been extremely rewarding. So I think one of the great things is that I really went into the idea of writing the book just because I wanted to share what I've learned, the mistakes I've made and to help other people, but I never really thought that it would sell very many copies or that people would have that kind of effect and the fact that it did. When I get a letter, a note from somebody, it's been extremely rewarding. So now I kind of remember that I think that's been a big impact.  James: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I get a lot of notes from my books as well and sometimes you don't really take it seriously because for us it's just common knowledge from what we have learned. But some notes do make us think, oh, I really really made an impact on someone. I mean, it's mind-blowing in how many lives can be changed with the things that you share in a book.  Brian: Right, right. Yeah. Absolutely.  James: Yeah. So the next second question is why do you do what you're doing? Brian: Well. You know and it's interesting. I mean actually, in the book I share at one point, this was a few years back, I had somebody come up to me and they said you know, how much is enough? Like you are so greedy, why do you keep going? And I just realized that this person doesn't understand, they missed the whole point that it's just rewarding to take a property that's not performing, that's in distress, that's maybe even a bad thing in a community and to turn it around and make it a better place for people to live. You help the tenants and you help the community and to do that and start to get involved. Like I do meetups now and I met new people and threw those in the book to help other investors, and so, you know, I look forward to going to work every day. I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of finding and executing on properties that aren't achieving up to their potential and making a better place for people to live and more profitable at the same time. So I just think it's fun. Like I enjoy what I do.  James: Yeah, it's like a discovery, you're trying to discover these from your paper to the real stuff. Especially when you are underwriting because you're assuming a lot of things and how does that whole assumption become a reality? You know, it's very interesting to see the output of that become [25:42inaudible] people's lives, which is just... Brian: Absolutely. James: So we really had a really good knowledge box from you, Brian. So can you tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, you know, your listeners can find me on Facebook. You can find me on LinkedIn, you know, you can find the book on amazon.com or on the book website is crushingit.info and my company's website is Washingtonstreetproperties.com  And if anybody is interested in reaching out, I'd be glad to hear from them.  James: Awesome, Brian. Thank you for coming and joining us. I think that's it. Thank you.  Brian: Thanks, James, was an honor.

James:  Hi listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, we have Brian Hamrick. Brian owns 370 units which 2/3 of it is syndicated, the remaining is owned by him. He's from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He does multifamily, self-storage and also non-performing notes and Brian is also the past president of Rental Properties Owner Association.  Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: Hey, James, great to be here. Thanks for having me.  James: I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, you have been podcasting for the past three years. You have a really good audience because I remember after showing up on your podcast, a lot of people did contact me. So I'm sure a lot of people love your podcast as well.  Brian: That's fantastic. I'm glad to hear that.  James: Yes. So can we go a bit more detailed into what is this Rental Properties Owners Association, how do they add value to syndicators or landlords or tenants? Can you describe a bit more on that? Brian: Sure, the Rental Property Owners Association, which I'm a past president of, I'm currently on the executive committee and I sit on a number of different committees, they are a landlord representation organization.  So we also work a lot with Real Estate Investors and provide all kinds of training for both landlords and Real Estate Investors. Every year, we have an annual conference where we have National Speakers come in and talk about all different types of investing asset classes and whatnot. And really I got involved with it because when I moved here to Grand Rapids, 15 years ago, I was looking for a professional organization that I could become part of that would help me network with other professionals in the industry. People who own rental properties and knew how to profit from it and also just an organization that would help teach best practices so I could learn the ropes how to do it and certainly through the Rental Property Owners Association and the people I've met there, I've learned a lot.  We provide a lot of training but probably what I consider most important of all is we have a legislative committee that works with lawmakers, both local and at the state level, to help push through bills that help rental property owners and also help prevent bills from becoming a reality that would hurt us; anything that has to do with like rent control or some of those hot button issues that as landlords and rental property owners would like to avoid.  James: Yeah, very interesting. So like New York and I think, Oregon now is rent control states, if I'm not mistaken, so they probably have similar Association like yours in that city, I guess. Brian: I would hope so. It sounds like they're fighting a losing battle as you and I both know as rental property owners, you know, I believe you invest out of state, out of your area, is that correct?  James: No. No, I'm from Austin. I invest everything in Austin and San Antonio. Brian: Okay. So would you even consider investing in a city or a state that has rent control?  James: No. Of course not.  Brian: Yeah. It's really detrimental to the market and I think it's going to cause a lot of problems. I used to live in Santa Monica, California where they had rent control and you can see the negative results of that. James: Oh, Santa Monica in California, did they have rent control in the past?  Brian: Yeah, a lot of the Los Angeles counties, you know, it's kind of county by county, city by city, area by area, but there is rent control in Los Angeles in certain areas and you can just see how rental property owners, who own buildings in rent control areas, have no incentive to put money back into them. They're not putting the capital expenditures back into their property to keep them in good shape because there's no incentive to do so. They can't raise rents beyond a certain amount each year and you know, so why would you invest $100,000 back into your building if you're not going to get that out in value? James: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make sense for a business. So you may not run it as a business, you may be just run it as cash flow, I don't know, it's like a cash flow investment. I guess you don't have to spend any capital on it.  Brian: I can see how if you've owned the property for a long time and you bought it at the right price at the right time, you could probably be doing well with cash flow. But in these markets where you see a lot of rent control, they're expensive markets. So I'm not really sure once rent control is instituted in these markets what's going to incentivize new investors to come in and bring fresh money into the market. James: Interesting interesting. So coming back to your portfolio, can you tell me in terms of your holdings, how much is multifamily, how much is self-storage? How many percents of each one of these and how much is non-performing notes?  Brian: Sure. Sure. So multi-family is my bread and butter. I've been doing that since 2008. I moved to Grand Rapids in 2005 and 2008 the bubble burst, you know, we entered the Great Recession, it was a buyers' market. I bought my first 12 unit, I was using my own money in the beginning, started using other people's money and then started syndicating.  We currently have about 370 units here in the Grand Rapids area, Grand Rapids, Michigan and that's multi-family residential. In 2018 we purchased a self-storage facility, it's about 28,000 square foot, we're currently adding another 15,000 square foot to it and that's been a fantastic investment, I really love self-storage. And then, as you mentioned, I host a podcast - The Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast - and one of my guests over two years ago was a gentleman by the name of Gene Chandler and he was investing in non-performing notes and I really liked his strategy so much that I ended up investing well over 300,000 dollars with them and the results have just been fantastic.  James: So, you now do multifamily and now you're doing two other asset class. So can you tell me what does multifamily did not offer that these two other asset class offers? Brian: Well, I like you, I'm investing in my own backyard for when it comes to multifamily. Even though I've bought and sold over 450 units, in 2015, I stopped buying multifamily altogether because the values had gone to a point where I could no longer justify syndication. I couldn't get the returns that I needed for my investors to be able to to pay the prices that people were asking. The last two deals I found - one was off-market, one was kind of in between market - and I can go into details on that but anything that I saw after that point just, I was so spoiled by the prices I was getting between 2008-2014, that I started looking for other asset classes.  And there were probably about 3 years where I just sat on the fence, waiting to see if the market would change or something else would come along. And at some point, one of the people who I met through the podcast, brought me a self-storage deal that he had found off-market. I looked at it, I like the numbers. His underwriting was very conservative, but the numbers were very compelling and we ended up buying that in 2018. And just in one year of basically bringing the rents up to market value and switching to a virtual online web-based management system, we were able to add over $700,000 in value to that property. So I like the simplicity of managing and owning self-storage more so than multifamily because in multifamily, you have tenants and plumbing issues... James: So it's very Property Management intensive, right? Brian:  It definitely is and the self-storage, it's not. When you have turn-over, you're basically sweeping out a metal shed, you know, so it's a lot easier to manage and own and operate self-storage, especially when you're in a good market and I think we bought in an excellent market. It's just north of Lansing, Michigan. And then with the non-performing notes, I found a strategic partner who handled a lot of the nuts and bolts of that and I was able to invest with him somewhat passively so I enjoyed that aspect of investing there and the returns we were getting were very good.  James: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned in my book, commercial asset classes go in cycles. I mean, I know I'm a multi-family guy and your bread and butter is multifamily but if you find the right operators in other asset classes, you can make a lot more money or equal amount of money as what you're making with multi-family. So, would you think so? Brian: Absolutely. Finding the right strategic partners in other asset classes that's one of the things I set my mind to when I realize I'm just not seeing the returns I want to see in multifamily and apartments in my area where I'm comfortable investing. Now, have you looked at other asset classes? James: I did look at a few asset class. I mean the asset class that I looked at is also like, you know, self-storage or mobile home parks but it's also in demand. I'm surprised to see here that you found something in 2018 because I thought self-storage is a hot asset class as well, I will risk going after that. Brian: Yeah, it was a lucky strike and we've been looking for similar opportunities. But yeah, we're not finding them. What we're doing instead is building ground-up construction in self-storage, finding locations where the demographics are right and the need for more square footage of self-storage space is there and then we go in and fill that need. James: Yeah, but I'm happy that you are looking at multifamily is not like the only asset class throughout the whole real estate cycle. I mean you felt like in 2015, things picked up and you really can't find the prices that you want and you have changed strategy which is how an investor should be. You always want to look at what's available out there, the deal flow because the economy is still doing very well. There's a lot of capital out there and it's just harder to find a great really-making-sense deal. I wouldn't say deals, making sense deals in multi-family, something that makes sense. It's just so hard to find out nowadays. Brian: Absolutely. As an investor, you have to stay nimble and flexible and be open to other opportunities. Now, I know a lot of people in our field, our asset class of multifamily and apartments will find strategic partners outside of their area like in Texas or Georgia or wherever and partner with strategic partners who are able to find better value and better yields in their Investments. But I've had some bad experiences early on with some single-families that I owned out of state so I've always been very hesitant since then to own rental property, residential rental property, out of state. James: So you like to have any property within your own backyard, but you like to diversify within asset classes. Some people have one asset class, but they go across the nation. Like some people like to buy multi-family across the nation, wherever make sense but you are doing it the other way around. Brian: Yeah. Since I've branched out into self-storage and non-performing notes, I'm comfortable switching up asset classes. James: Awesome. So on self-storage, are you the operator, are you the primary guy?  Brian: No, my strategic partner is. He's the one who found the deal off-market, he negotiated it. I basically came in and raised the money; we syndicated that and raise the funds to be able to acquire it. James: Got it. Very interesting. And on the performing notes, you have a strategic partner, I would say, right? Brian: Yeah, I have a strategic partner on that. He's the one who knows that world. He's been doing it for well over six years now and really knows how to negotiate with the lender who we're purchasing a non-performing note from. He works with the homeowners to try to keep them in the home and figure out if that's even possible and then knows who the title company is that he should work with to get the right due diligence done and he's got the different scenarios in his head of how we can profit off of these notes. If we keep the homeowner in the home, what are the strategies there for us to maximize our profit or if we have to go through the foreclosure process. How do we go about that and maximize our returns in those cases as well. James: Interesting. Interesting. So if you get a multi-family deal today, would you still do it? Brian: If I found a deal that made sense and my underwriting shows that I could get the returns to my investors that they're accustomed to, I'd do it in a second, absolutely.  James: Okay. Okay. So let's talk about the market and submarket selection. So why did you move from California to Grand Rapids, Michigan?  Everybody's heading to Texas and Florida from California.  Brian: I'm from Michigan, originally. James: Oh, you're from Michigan? Okay, that makes a lot of sense.  Brian: Yeah, my wife is from here as well. So we met in California but decided okay, if we get married, start a family we didn't want to do it in Los Angeles, it's just too busy there.  James: Makes sense. Yeah, I mean just based on data that 50% of the population move to Texas And I think there's a lot more but Texas and Florida is the favorite destination for people from California. That's why I was asking the question. And how do you select the submarket in Grand Rapids, Michigan? Like how do you select which submarket to really do the deal? Brian:  Well eyes because I live here, I am looking within a half hour to an hour of where I live. Grand Rapids is very strong, has very strong demographics. It's one of the few Midwest cities that really bounce back strong from the Great Recession. A lot of diversified manufacturing industry. Furniture, Amway is here, we've got a lot of different industries and employment based here. So when I look at submarkets, I'm looking more at the neighborhoods, what's the crime rate in that neighborhood? What's the income level in that? What kind of rents can we command and by the way, I'll buy B properties and C properties or you know, C minus properties that we can push into that C plus B minus range. But I will avoid the The D areas and I've seen a lot of opportunities in the D areas. And by D, I mean where you have a lot higher crime rate, where you have a lot more evictions and tenant turnover and problems.  So I'm just very careful about and I work with the property management company that has a good grasp of these areas. So when we look at a property, we can really get a sense of if we buy this, is there an upside value, can we improve it and get higher rents, get better residents in here or is it going to be bound by the neighborhood it's in, that where it is now is what just where it's going to be? James:  Got it. Got it. Interesting. What about underwriting? I mean, when you look at a deal like I mean when you are buying multifamily, right? So how would you select the deal? Let's say a hundred deals been sent to you, do you know how many percents of it you would reject? Brian: Right now 100%. I'm not even looking right now, but what I'll do is I'll do a quick rule of thumb. Okay, what's the net operating income? What's the cap rate that they're asking? Is there upside potential? And of course, if it's listed by a broker, they'll always tell you the market the rents are way under market. you can raise the rent. No problem. That's sometimes true, sometimes not true.  But this area is so strong that any seller right now knows that they can get top dollar and while there's a lot of Institutions and out-of-state investors and even International investors who are willing to pay top dollar, the yields that they are willing to accept are much lower than what I'm willing to pay, which is why I'm not even looking at the moment.  James: Very interesting. Now I see it's happening across the country. I thought it was only happening in Texas and Florida but looks like across the country, that's what's happening. It's just so hard to find deals that used to make sense to us long time ago, right? So it's crazy out there.  Brian: Yeah, and it could just be that I'm spoiled because I was buying during a period when I could buy it at eight nine ten caps. And now, when I see things at five six, six and a half caps, I don't even want to consider them. But had I bought it at those cap rates between 2015 and 2017, I would have made a lot of money. So maybe I'm just a little too stringent in my criteria right now.  James: Yeah. That could be it as well.  Brian: Are you buying right now? James: Well, I mean, well, I'm still buying if I find the right deal. It's just so hard to find the deal that makes sense for my criteria, and I'm sure that's the same thing as your criteria. I'm still buying if I find the right deal but I'm not underwriting a hundred deals, you know, in one month. You know, whatever deal comes to me, I usually know that within the quick look, I know whether it makes sense for me to underwrite or not. And sometimes brokers will call me if they know that a certain deal is something that I would do. That's the only deal that I look at.  Brian: What's your quick back of the napkin way of determining whether or not you want to invest in something? James: If it's an email blast, I probably wouldn't look at it.  Brian: Yeah. Yeah, you kind of eliminate the ones that go out to everybody.  James: Yeah, it's already got everybody on his shop date and coming on an email blast. You know, you have to go on a best and final and best and best and final and then this ultimate best and final offer, which is you're shooting in the dark, right? You're basically bidding against yourself. [20:45 inaudible] I'm not really in a desperate mode to buy deals that go through that kind of process. So when I look for value-add if there's a true value-add deal, I mean, minus the crime rate area, I definitely know the area that has high crime rate, I can check it out quickly Class B and C, but need to have true value-add that we can go and add value. I don't really look at the entry cap rate, but I look for the spread of the cap rate from the time I buy to in the next two years kind of thing without any rent increases.  Brian: I think part of part of my problem, one of the reasons that I've just been on the fence is because we bought a value-add property back in 2015. It was an older building, built in 1920 and it was such an exhaustive process to go in and add value to that property. I was over there like every day. James: It is very tiring to do those value-add deals. To do deep value-adds, I would say.   Brian: Deep, deep value-add. And so my bandwidth for more opportunities was just completely limited because I was so exhausted by working on this one particular project. Now, luckily, we got it to a point where we added tremendous value to it and we're very proud of the work we did but you have to weigh the opportunity cost when you do those value-adds because sometimes they're so intensive that some of the lower hanging fruits, you bypassed that. James: Correct. Yeah. I see some syndicators doing deals every month and they're not doing a deep value-add or they're just doing the lighter value-add. Maybe they're just doing a yield play. [22:30inaudible] they can buy every month. They can claim 5,000 units or 3,000 years versus deep value-add to be like 100 and 200 and 300. It's a really really deep value-add. You probably make a lot more money than the guy who owns 3,000 to 4,000 units, but it's a lot of work.  Brian: It's more than just asset managing. You kind of become a de facto developer. James: Developer, a huge project manager. Yes, so many things but the deep value-add gives you a sense of accomplishment. Brian: It does.  I'm very proud of the work we did on this particular property and more so than any of my other properties because I didn't have to put nearly as much work into them.  James: Yeah, and the deep value-add it becomes a case study, right? Because it truly shows your skills to turn around property.  And people who have done deep value-add it's going to be easier for them to do the lighter [23:30inaudible]   Brian: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent point.  James: So that's very interesting. So can you name like 2 or 3 secret sauces to your success? Brian: The two or three secret sauces to my success. I'm sorry if you hear that printer going in the background there.  James: It's okay. No worries.  Brian: Hopefully that ends soon. Secret sauces to my success; I think doing the underwriting, running my numbers. I always like to say, I like to see my numbers in bullet time. To see all the Matrix, you know, everything slows down and you can see it coming at you. I want to know what are the real expense is going to be after we've acquired the property. One particular mistake that I see a lot of investors making is they assume that the property tax is going to be the same as what the previous owner was paying and that's just not the case. So right there that's one of the main factors that I look at right away, is what is the property tax going to become once I buy this property and that eliminates 50% of the deals that I would even consider. So number one secret sauce is just really understanding the numbers. Not just where they are today, but where they will be once we acquire the property. Number two is having the right team. I am all about partnering with strategic partners who add value because they understand inside and out the asset class that you're investing in. The reason I was able to expand my multifamily portfolio was that I partnered with someone who owned his own property management company and managed the type of properties that I wanted to acquire. That without his assistance and without his team that really knew how to go in and do the due diligence and help me assess upfront, what are the capital expense costs going to be? What are the true costs going to be when we acquire this property? Without that, I would have made a lot of mistakes. The same with self-storage. I partnered with someone who even though he's young and new, somewhat new to the business, he had really studied it, talked to a lot of professionals, been mentored by people and really understood inside and out how we could add value to that self-storage facility. And everything that he put in his pro forma ended up becoming a reality. With my non-performing note partner, I mean he knows that world inside and out. So when we acquire a note, the first 12 that I bought with him, we only had one that we lost money on and that was about $1,700.  James: Out of how many notes?  Brian: We bought 12 notes to start with because I like to test before I bring other investors in so I bought 12 notes with my partner, I JV with him. Five of the notes our average return was over 80%.  James: Wow. What timeline? Brian: A year and a half.  Well, actually, each note is kind of on its own timeline. So I'll tell you that of the twelve notes that he and I purchased together, five of them are closed and paid off like we've made our profit. Our average return on investment, before we split 50/50, our average return was 81% and that included the one note that we lost $1,700 on. Some of the returns that we're getting are phenomenal. Five of the notes are re-performing, which means that we were able to keep the homeowners in their homes, which is fantastic. That's our number one goal. Our average return on those notes as we collect the monthly income is 30%. And then two of them are in some form of foreclosure. In fact, we're about to sell one. We just listed it today actually, so we should make a decent return on that. We always try to work with the homeowner and keep them in the home. Half the time we're able to do that, half the time it just doesn't work out. But you asked me the timeline so, of those five notes that we closed, our average return was 81%, the average number of days that we were in each of those notes was 163 days so that took less than half a year.   James: I mean, those are good great numbers. I mean, I mentioned in my book, find the right operator in that asset class and partner with them or invest with them for passive investors. So as I said in every asset class, there's always good operators. So the numbers you're telling me in non-performing notes in self-storage are huge, right? I mean, I know multifamily you can make money if the market went up and you have a really good operator that can handle that. On average, not everybody is making what you just told me right now on self-storage. So why is multifamily more popular than other asset classes?   Brian: There are more people teaching it.  James: That's absolutely my point. Brian: Yeah, I mean like there are some excellent instructors out there in multifamily and you and I are both the part of a group with one of them. I mean great top-notch training material. Okay. Yeah, there's just fewer people out there. Whereas you have between 10 to 20 people out there teaching multifamily, you could count on one hand the number of people teaching self-storage and it's even less teaching the non-performing note.  James: I understand. Yeah, it is it is true. There's a lot more people teaching multifamily, a lot more boot camps, a lot more 2 days weekend seminars on multifamily compared to self-storage or non-performing notes. And I think multi-family is also very simple to understand, it's a house. Not many people understand what is non-performing notes.  Brian: Yeah, there's all that educational like just understanding and wrapping your head around the concept. I got into multifamily because I understood the economy of scale and I understood people have to have a place to live. So if you can get them to pay their rent and that rent pays all your expenses plus the mortgage, well, you can make a lot of money that way. And then once I understood the next level of value, which is the income valuation method, how commercial multifamily is valued based on the income method and you can increase your returns exponentially if you understand that. The relationship between cap rate and your net operating income and value that was very compelling to me. And I think that still is very compelling when it comes to investing in commercial real estate whether it be multifamily or self-storage. I think non-performing notes, there's a lot more perceived risk in that because it's not valued based on any  - it's hard to understand how that's valued because there are so many different scenarios in which you can profit from non-performing notes. That you can't just say well we value it this way and if you buy this note, this is what you're going to make, it's kind of a crapshoot. But if you do it right and you partner with someone who knows how to avoid the dogs, you can actually make a lot of money doing it.  James: So what is the most valuable value-add in non-performing notes? Brian: You mean an example of one of our...? James: No, not an example. I'm talking about what is the one thing that if you do the most of the time or the frequency of things that you do in non-performing notes that you get the most value out of? Brian: Well, yeah, it differs note by note. I'll give you two examples. One is a property that was pretty much a teardown property that we bought the note on in Middlebury, Indiana. We paid $5,000 for this note and I asked my partner, I mean it's $5,000, this property is a teardown. How are we going to make money on this? And he said, well, we're not buying this for this property for the house that's on it. We're buying it for the land because it's right next door to a farm and this farm is owned by this Amish family. So he sent a realtor over to the Amish family and they ended up paying $35,000 for that note. So after closing costs and paying the realtor and getting our initial $5,000 investment back, our profit was over $24,000 that represented a 245% return and we did that in less than two months. James: Yeah, but you need to identify that opportunity. I mean, it's not like you can go and buy any deals right now. Okay, very interesting. Brian: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Another quick example of how you can profit on notes and I don't want it to lead you to believe that your best profit is always going to be a few foreclose or take possession of the property because you can still make a lot of money if you can work with the homeowners. We bought a note on a property in northern Michigan, probably about 9 or 10 months ago now. And I believe the numbers were in the line of we paid $20,000 for this note, got the homeowners re-performing, the unpaid balance on this note is $41,000. Once we have them season for 12 months, meaning that they're paying on time for 12 months - we've been working with them with a mortgage loan originator, where they can go and get new financing, permanent financing of FHA or Fannie Mae type loan in place with much better interest rate much better payments. Well, when they go do that, they're going to pay off that unpaid balance. So our $19,000 investment, now that I'm thinking about it was $19,000, our $19,000 investment, we're going to get paid that $41,000 of the unpaid balance on their note, plus the money that they've been paying each year. So our return on that is going to be 100%, it's actually over a hundred percent.   James: Across how many years?  Brian: We'll be out of that in under 15 months. James: Okay, interesting. Brian: Because they're going to refinance and when they refinance, we get paid that unpaid balance. James: Got it. Got it. What about on the multifamily properties that you own before 2015? What do you think is the most valuable value-add that you really like?  Brian: Well, they're all great because just anything I bought between 2008 and 2012, I've achieved an infinite return on those.  James: Okay. So refied it by and you kept it? Brian: Yeah. Yeah, we've refinanced, pulled our initial investment out. We have no money in the properties and we're collecting cash flow every month. So you can't calculate a return on that. Probably one of the best examples is a 37 unit that we purchased. We bought it at a short sale in 2009, was about 600,000 is what we paid for it. We put a $200,000 into it right away to replace roofs, windows. It was a hodgepodge of heating systems. There's electric baseboard heat and hot water boiler heat and then gas forced-air furnace heat. It just depended on which unit you were looking at. So we replaced a lot of the mechanicals, made it as much of a new property as we could, as far as just the mechanicals and the roof and the windows. And we refinanced it once it had over 1.1 million dollar value, pulled all of our initial investment out plus some extra cash flow and then we just refinanced it again, put a tenure fixed loan on it through the Freddie Mac. small apartment loan. So we got great terms on it, 30-year amortization. At that point, it valued over two million dollars. So we've added a lot of value to it and the compression of cap rates didn't hurt either.  James: Yeah. Yeah. Those are the awesome deals, the deep value-adds. That's where you can go and refi and make it infinite written because you pulled out all your cost basis. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the goal to achieve infinite return. Whenever we can do that, that's what we do.  James: Absolutely. Aren't you worried about the state of the market right now in real estate in general?  Brian: You know, gosh, I was more worried about it two years ago than I am now probably. James: What has changed? Brian: Probably because two years ago, I was thinking, oh, it's going to turn any minute now and then it only got better and better. You and I both know Neil Bala and we talked to him at the last event we were at together and he made a very good case for the continuation of this market. And it basically rests on the fact that the United States, it's one of the few, if not the only places in the world where you can go to get real yield on your investment. We're seeing a lot of international money coming into the United States because in their countries, they're seeing negative yield or 0 yield. Here even if you can still get three or four percent yield on your investment, that's a lot of money. It's bringing a lot of money into this country and that's going to prop up our values for quite a long time. On top of that, I've always fought or believe that interest rates were going to rise and I've been believing that since 2000 and they keep going down. And even now, as we're speaking, they're talking about lowering the rate again by the end of the year. So that interest rate risk, I know we're playing with fire here and eventually, we're going to have to pay the piper but our government seems to keep coming up with ways to prolong this growth and the increase in prices. So am I worried? Not in the short term. No. No. The Economists I listen to are saying, oh, it's going to be a roaring 20s for us. Things are really going to hit the fan and. 2027, 2028, 29. James: Interesting. Yeah, because I think I don't know, maybe my thoughts are similar to yours somehow the Fed has figured out how to do quantitative easing and quantitative tightening. Somehow they're able to contract the economy and bring it down. So they could have found some new mechanism to keep the economy going even though our thought process always has been real estate goes in cycles. But at some point, you will hit an affordability issue, it can't [40:13unintelligible]  go up all the time, right?  Brian: Yes.  James: The prices can go up because the interest rate is coming down because now you can get more cash flow. But at the same time, you can't keep on increasing rent because our wages are not going up so much. I mean, I'm not an economist but at some point, you will hit some roadblock, but I'm not sure where is it and how is going to come.  Brian: Yeah, well, we're seeing a plateauing I think right now in just the rents that we're able to charge, the prices that people are willing to pay but it's still a very strong market. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going out there and just buying stuff like crazy because I am very conservative and like I said if I can't get the returns that I need to bring investors into my deals, I'm just not even looking at it. I don't anticipate that the market is going to have a huge correction, there might be a bump, I think if you're in a good market, like Grand Rapids, that bump won't be nearly as severe as some other places.  I'm keeping my eye on the market but at the same time, investing conservatively in asset classes that I think will be able to withstand the next correction.  James: Awesome. So let's go back to a personal side of things, right? So is there a proud moment throughout your career in real estate that you will remember for your whole life, one proud moment? Brian: One for a moment to put on my tombstone. James: Yeah, absolutely. That you really think that hard, I'm really proud I did that.  Brian: Yeah. So a couple of answers. I mean any time we're able to go in and improve a property and improving neighborhoods, that always makes me proud, you know, that we're adding value to a neighborhood and community. The older building that I told you about here in Grand Rapids, it was built in 1920. When we bought that it was very tired, kind of poorly managed, it was losing money. We were able to turn that around so I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of the fact that we also fought very hard and work very closely with the city to be able to put a restaurant in that building. So the fact that when we bought it it was 96 apartment units and about 6,000 square foot of vacant commercial space. Now we had to work with the city to get it rezoned because it had been vacant for so long, it had to be reverted to being zoned residential. So we spent over a year trying to get it rezoned so we could add commercial in there, but we filled up all 6,000 square foot including a restaurant and that took about two or three years to do.  So when I think about what I'm proud of I think I'm definitely proud of that.  James: Awesome. That there is hard work  because you're turning the zoning from residential to mixed use.  Brian: Yeah, mixed-use residential commercial, just dealing with parking, number of parking spots and green space and tree canopies. I mean, it was a massive undertaking.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting that kind of work. I did one that was borderline and we merged it with an apartment and we did so many things. It was a very unique value-add that we recently refinance.  Brian: What was it, a lot of work for you? James: It was a lot of work because you have to go through, you know, buying the deal - you had to buy two deals at the same time. One is the apartment and one is the land and then we have to go to the city to merge these two plots. Then you had to rezone it, then you had to - I mean replot it, rezone it And then after you do a tree survey, you have to do so many different surveys have to do to get that. It's not normal in a residential, you know, where you buy today and increase rent, reduce expense kind of deal. But it's very interesting and people got 80% of our money within 15 months, which is huge, just by doing this creatively.  Brian: That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, you talk about its zoning and tree, you know.  James: Yeah, zoning and tree and all those. Brian: So it's a whole new world and it definitely is costly and time-consuming because you have to have experts on your team. You got to bring experts like architects.  James: Yeah, we brought in architects, engineers.  Brian: Yeah, engineers who even understand what it is that the city is asking for because if you were trying to do that yourself, you just would be a mess. James: Yeah. I mean the good thing about what you said about what I'm proud of this kind of process and 99% of the syndicators don't have that kind of experience. Brian: Yeah. I didn't have that kind of experience but now I do.  James: Most of the time, you just buy buildings and, you know, look at increasing income and reducing expenses and after that, at some point you sell but you don't do different contracts buying land and doing kind of things. So another question for you, Brian, why do you do what you do?  Brian: I love it. I love what I do. I feel very entrepreneurial about it because I've been an employee up until about five or six years ago. Whatever it was I was doing, whatever job, I always embraced it and did the best I could. But what I love about being an entrepreneur, being a full-time real estate investor, now syndicator/asset manager is that it's all very self-motivated. I'm the one who decides what needs to happen, what I need to pay attention to on a day-by-day basis. I don't have a boss or anyone else telling me, 'Hey, Brian, go do this' when I'm like, 'no, I want to go do this instead.' I get to call the shots. So that's what I love about it. I get to call the shots, I get to take time off if I need to take time off and I get to kind of fill my day with activities that I want to be doing. James: Awesome. Hey Brian, you want to tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, James. First of all, you can go to my website, which is higinvestor.com. That's HIG is Hamrick Investment Group. You can also listen to my podcast and James you've been a guest on there so you can definitely listen to me interview James. It's the Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast and it's sponsored by the RPOA, which we begin this conversation talking about. And if you want to get in touch with me, you can also email me Brian@higinvestor.com.   James: Awesome, Brian. Thanks for coming in and adding value to my listeners and audience and to myself as well in the kind of things from our discussion here. I think that's it. Thank you very much.  Brian: All right. Thanks, James. It's been a pleasure. It's a lot of fun. James: Lot of fun, thank you.  

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Fanny: Hey, Brian, what's the most popular sports in Canada?Brian: The most popular sport is definitely ice hockey.Fanny: Ice hockey! So do you play hockey by yourself?Brian: I don't actually. When I was a kid, I wanted to play ice hockey, and I was always like begging my dad and asking him but he always said 'NO'.Fanny: Why?Brian: I think the big reason is that... Well, he told me it was too expensive.Fanny: Is it?Brian: It's not cheap. You know, it costs quite a bit to get all the gear but the big reason I think is the practice was always very early in the morning.Fanny: Oh, I see.Brian: Like five a.m. is when the practice is, and I think he was too lazy to wake up and take me to the practice.Fanny: Oh, I see.Brian: He told me it was too expensive. Deep down I think he was.... he didn't want to drive me.Fanny: So are there many people playing hockey?Brian: There are. It's a great sport. It's very popular with many children, and maybe high schools and universities all have hockey teams.Fanny: Oh, nice. That means you're a lot of rich people in Canada, then.Brian: Or maybe they spend all of their money on hockey gear. Have you ever played hockey?Fanny: No, no, not really. It's not that popular in China.Brian: What kind of sports are more common in China?Fanny: People always play soccer...Brian: Ah, soccer.Fanny: And table tennis. Table tennis is very popular.Brian: You're country is very strong at table tennis I think.Fanny: We always get all the medals in the big, you know, big eventsBrian: Why is table tennis so popular now do you think?Fanny: I think the first reason is that everybody can play it because it's very easy to get the, you know, the... to get ready for the sports. It's not expensive.Brian: No, I guess you just need the ball and the paddle.Fanny: The paddle. The ball and the paddle. Yes, and a partner.Brian: Right. Right. So have you played it then?Fanny: Yeah, I'm quite good at it.Brian: Oh, really.Fanny: Because my mother plays very well and so I always played with my mom, so I got better now.Brian: OK. So she taught you how to play table tennis?Fanny: Actually she didn't teach me but we always played together.Brian: Right.Fanny: Practice makes perfect.Brian: So they sayFanny: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Fanny: Hey, Brian, what's the most popular sports in Canada?Brian: The most popular sport is definitely ice hockey.Fanny: Ice hockey! So do you play hockey by yourself?Brian: I don't actually. When I was a kid, I wanted to play ice hockey, and I was always like begging my dad and asking him but he always said 'NO'.Fanny: Why?Brian: I think the big reason is that... Well, he told me it was too expensive.Fanny: Is it?Brian: It's not cheap. You know, it costs quite a bit to get all the gear but the big reason I think is the practice was always very early in the morning.Fanny: Oh, I see.Brian: Like five a.m. is when the practice is, and I think he was too lazy to wake up and take me to the practice.Fanny: Oh, I see.Brian: He told me it was too expensive. Deep down I think he was.... he didn't want to drive me.Fanny: So are there many people playing hockey?Brian: There are. It's a great sport. It's very popular with many children, and maybe high schools and universities all have hockey teams.Fanny: Oh, nice. That means you're a lot of rich people in Canada, then.Brian: Or maybe they spend all of their money on hockey gear. Have you ever played hockey?Fanny: No, no, not really. It's not that popular in China.Brian: What kind of sports are more common in China?Fanny: People always play soccer...Brian: Ah, soccer.Fanny: And table tennis. Table tennis is very popular.Brian: You're country is very strong at table tennis I think.Fanny: We always get all the medals in the big, you know, big eventsBrian: Why is table tennis so popular now do you think?Fanny: I think the first reason is that everybody can play it because it's very easy to get the, you know, the... to get ready for the sports. It's not expensive.Brian: No, I guess you just need the ball and the paddle.Fanny: The paddle. The ball and the paddle. Yes, and a partner.Brian: Right. Right. So have you played it then?Fanny: Yeah, I'm quite good at it.Brian: Oh, really.Fanny: Because my mother plays very well and so I always played with my mom, so I got better now.Brian: OK. So she taught you how to play table tennis?Fanny: Actually she didn't teach me but we always played together.Brian: Right.Fanny: Practice makes perfect.Brian: So they sayFanny: Yeah.

How can we make real changes within the practice of law to lessen the impact of stress on individuals in this profession? In this episode of the ALPS In Brief Podcast, Chris Newbold checks in with Dallas attorney and advocate for wellbeing, Brian Cuban, to discuss the state of lawyer wellbeing now, the lifesaving impact one lawyer can have upon another, and our ethical responsibility to step up for one another.  CHRIS NEWBOLD:             Good afternoon. This is Chris Newbold, guest hosting today for the ALPS In Brief Podcast. And I'm here in our offices in Missoula, Montana with attorney and advocate for wellbeing, Brian Cuban, who's in here from the Dallas area. I just spoke at our ALPS bar leaders retreat, and we thought this would be a great opportunity for us to have ... We have a similar passion in terms of seeing our profession improve on the wellbeing side, and so I thought this would be a great opportunity for us to just kind of have a conversation about where the profession's at. Where do we need to go? And Brian, you're obviously out on the speakers' network, kind of talking about this particular issue, your personal experience, and so forth. I think I'd like to start with just you kind of putting into your own frame of reference. What is the state of the profession right now when it comes to attorney wellbeing? BRIAN CUBAN:                  It's a state that is a lot better than it was a few years ago. We have much more awareness. We have many more engaged professionals from the bottom up, the lawyers, the bar professionals, the local bar professionals, the state bar professionals. And we have awareness in big law. We have awareness within the boutique and the solo practitioner. There are areas that we can certainly do better, and we can certainly be more impactful, but we are definitely light years ahead of we were just three years ago. CHRIS:                                   And what do you think has driven that improvement in such a short period of time? BRIAN:                                  I think you have to give a lot of the credit to the ABA and the Betty Ford Hazelden Report, and that would also be Patrick Krill, who authored that report, in bringing the issue to the forefront with the staggering statistics, because I think that was a catalyst in really changing the conversation. Whatever people think of the ABA, you have different opinions, but you can't deny that that report was a seminal moment. CHRIS:                                   And why do you think that the issue right now is capturing a lot of attention in the legal community in legal circles? BRIAN:                                  Well, because of that report and because of the cumulative awareness, now we are looking around us and actually noticing what's going on. We may have been aware of what's going on, we may have seen what's going on. When someone dies by suicide, we are aware of it and we grieve it. But we are now much better in taking a look at that, and deciding where things could've been done differently. And three years ago, four years ago, it was more about just grieving and handing out, in the issue of suicide, handing out the 1-800 hotlines. Now we are moving beyond that, and really look at how we can make systemic changes to at least lessen the odds of those things occurring. CHRIS:                                   You talk a lot about kind of the impact that one lawyer can have on another lawyer. Right? And the responsibility that we have to not be kind of casual observers in this. Talk about that a little bit more as it relates to how we looked at, engineer a culture shift in the profession, and how every lawyer can make a difference one by one. BRIAN:                                  Sure. I talk a lot about not minding your own business. We have to create a culture where we are comfortable, or even if we're not comfortable. Let me step back from that because that's not comfortable. It's okay to be uncomfortable not minding your own business. That's a human emotion. But we have to get comfortable understanding that for what it is and taking that step anyways. When we see someone struggling, when we think we might be able to, or we are wondering, you just don't know. Is there a drinking problem? Is there a mental health struggle? Maybe the person's just having a bad day. To be able to not mind our own business for one moment, step outside of our struggles, step outside of our busy day, our billing, the things we have going on, and say, "How are you doing? Are you doing okay? Do you know that if you're not, you can come to me, and we can talk?" That doesn't require anything but empathy. And every lawyer, every person has that ability. CHRIS:                                   Is that a tough conversation for an associate to have with a partner? BRIAN:                                  Absolutely. And we have to follow protocols. Law firms need to establish protocols for when people are struggling. That is not realistic to expect an associate to confront a partner. But big law all have EAPs, so there's that. We all have lawyers assistance programs. Do you know as an associate, you can call lawyers assistance program, and you can let someone know what's going on? And they're not going to out you. I know that is a tough pill to swallow, and I know you don't believe that. But you can make that call. You do not have to identify yourself in any lawyers assistance program in this country, and you can say, "I'm in this firm, and I think this guy is struggling." And they will take it from there, so you can do that. BRIAN:                                  Within big law, we can talk about big law and then move on to something. Go down, go down. Within big law, it's important to establish protocols that are nonjudgmental, where everyone has a path. Everyone in the firm has a nonjudgmental path, a path that they feel safe voicing their concern if they see someone they think is struggling. So I can't tell them what that path is, but there should be multiple paths based on where someone is in the chain, right down to the clerk. CHRIS:                                   Talk about your opinions on ... There's an increasing body of work out there that says that the economics of wellbeing are conducive to a stronger bottom line. Right? And as we think about talent acquisition, talent retention, I know you work a lot in kind of big law firms. Right? BRIAN:                                  Mm-hmm (affirmative). CHRIS:                                   I think there's a really interesting play on the horizon for those who lead our profession from a big law perspective to be thinking about a commitment to this issue that could translate economically for the firm. Talk about that. BRIAN:                                  Absolutely. And I think, I doubt there are any managing partners, senior partners, firm CEOs are the real big ones that are not aware of that issue. It is the messaging is consistent just in general in society about the impact of addiction and mental health issues on the workplace and the economic cost. So the challenge becomes: How do we translate that into risk management? And I think they are starting to do that. That is not what I do. I'm a storyteller, I'm not a risk manager. But I think we are starting to see an industry, and people who do that, to go to a firm and say, "This is how we translate this into risk management to increase value to you," save you money. That saves the client money because on the most basic level, and we talked about the Peter Principle of Recovery. Right? How your level of competence keeps decreasing, and you keep trying to adjust your mindset to stay within that, you tell yourself you're at a high level when you're struggling. BRIAN:                                  That can be, in a general sense, stealing money from a client because you were not effectively representing the client. That is affecting the firm's bottom line, and that is the most basic level. When a lawyer is struggling, and not functioning at the non-struggling level, he may not even, or she may not even understand what that level is because they've been in the middle of it, lacking self-awareness for so long. That is affecting the firm's bottom line. That can affect client retention because there are lawyers out there who are not struggling. Everyone's trying to get the business. Right? So you have to maximize the ... You have to minimize the risk by putting lawyers in a position to succeed and to hit the top level of competence and move beyond that if possible. Keep raising that level. And it's hard to do that when someone's struggling with addiction, problem drinking, depression. BRIAN:                                  And I see lawyers all the time that talk about, well, I'm struggling with depression, but I was killing it, doing this. And I can't judge that. I don't know their situation. But I can say anecdotally, and what I see in the data, that I don't see how a person can look at the big picture, step back, and say, "I was going through all that and giving a dollar for a dollar." So I think all firms are aware of that, and I think that is achieved through a risk management model. CHRIS:                                   Again, it's going to be interesting too as big law tries to recruit talent out of the law schools, how much top talented students are actually looking for a wellness play in terms of the life, work balance that I think, generationally, I think is becoming more common. BRIAN:                                  That's a good question. I forget what the study was. Was it Am Law? Did the Am Law survey just come out? CHRIS:                                   Mm-hmm (affirmative). BRIAN:                                  And I couldn't find it. I think it may have been subsumed in one of the questions. But I reached out to Patrick Krill, who does a lot of the risk management stuff, and who authored the ABA Betty Ford Study, and asked him if he knew if we are surveying firms on wellbeing, if that is part of the survey. And I don't know that he had. I'll have to look and see if he responded, or he had an answer. But I think that may be not so much as a conscious play, but as a lifestyle play. It's just part of an overall lifestyle. Looking at the overall lifestyle, can we say that someone's going to say, "What's their drinking culture? I'm not going there"? There's no way to know that. But in the overall lifestyle play, I think lifestyle and wellness will become major factors, as Millennials and Generation Z, who have different priorities on what they want their life to look at as lawyers and as human beings. CHRIS:                                   Yeah. Talk more about, it's an interesting time in our profession given the fact that we have four separate generations all operating at the same time. Right? BRIAN:                                  Mm-hmm (affirmative). CHRIS:                                   But there are also studies out there, particularly those that have been done within the law schools, that say some of these behaviors and substance abuse and so forth are starting earlier, and are becoming more prevalent for those who have been in practice, particularly in private practice, for less than 10 years. As you think about that dynamic, and Millennials and so forth, that's soon going to be the largest chunk of lawyers in the profession. And as you think about the generational aspects of wellbeing, what's your take on that? BRIAN:                                  I think Millennials definitely have a different vision of what wellness looks like than ... I'm a baby boomer. The baby boomers, I come from, my lawyers' culture was a drinking culture. And I think when we look at things like the Sober Curious Movement, and what the Sober Curious Movement is, is not looking at drinking in terms of whether someone is a problem drinker, is an alcoholic, but what it looks like as a lifestyle, and as part of a healthy lifestyle, and whether you want it to be part of the healthy lifestyle without being judged on whether you're abstinent or not abstinent, and what that means to you, whether you're an alcoholic or you're not an alcoholic. I think Millennials and Generation Z are going to look at this differently in terms of just, I want to do the things that make me feel good, and that may not involve drinking. And I don't want to be judged for that. I don't want to have to explain myself. BRIAN:                                  And I think that is going to be a much easier transition and a much easier conversation than it is for my generation because it's beginning. It is beginning. The Sober Curious Movement is out there. We have bars within New York. There aren't any in Dallas and Austin. And you see a lot of the progressive towns, where you have bars, they just serve mocktails. And they revolve the fun around other things besides getting drunk. You go out and you're drinking fake pina coladas without alcohol. And they revolve everything around those, around the mocktails. The mocktail generation, they may be that. CHRIS:                                   That's an interesting one. If you had to assess right now, wellbeing in the legal profession, one being it's at an all-time low, 10 being, I think lawyers are both healthy, happy, engaged, where you put that on the spectrum? BRIAN:                                  I would put we're at a three or four, three or four. And that's great, and that's great. CHRIS:                                   A lot of room for improvement. BRIAN:                                  A lot of room for improvement. Four is opportunity. Right? CHRIS:                                   Yep. BRIAN:                                  Four is opportunity. Yes. And one of the biggest challenges I think we have, and if you look at big law, we with the ABA, and this isn't a criticism of the ABA at all. I think with the Wellness Task Force and everything, they have laid out the groundwork for all levels to participate, all stakeholders, solo, medium, boutique, the bar associations, all the way up to big law, corporate. I think they are laying out that groundwork. But I think when we get further down into the stakeholders, the solo practitioner, the small firm, we have a lot more work to do. And I think in that chunk is where we have the most improvement to do in our messaging, and the most opportunity because we have other challenges when we get down there. BRIAN:                                  If you work at big law, you have health insurance. And I knew big law lawyers who have health insurance, and still can't find a reasonable psychiatrist or therapist. They've complained to me about it. We have this health insurance crisis on so many different levels. And big law within the spectrum, you have privilege. You have health insurance privilege because you're going to have it. And you're going to have the EAP, and you're going to have this, and you're going to have that. BRIAN:                                  I don't know what the stats are, but I know anecdotally that a lot of the solos cannot afford health insurance. So when you can't afford health insurance, what are your options? You're going to 12 step. You are going to county. A lawyer don't want to go to county and get free treatment, that's very shameful. Right? If you even have that option as a reasonable option in your city. A lot of cities have terrible county free health services. And so we have that stigma of a solo practitioner and the medium, I don't have health insurance. I'm a lawyer, I'm not taking advantage of free. I can't. So they don't tell anyone. It's shameful. So how do we solve that? CHRIS:                                   Obviously, in our book of business with ALPS, we specialize in small firms and solo practitioners. And 65% of the policies that we issue are to solos. And they're generally a higher malpractice risk because they don't have a support network around them. BRIAN:                                  Absolutely. CHRIS:                                   You can't stop into Brian's office and say, "Hey. Let's have a conversation about this particular case." You have to build networks. You have to build connections in very different ways, which makes it I think, much more challenging. BRIAN:                                  And it does. And it's a challenge where you're struggling. It's going to be dependent on the particular situation. But you're making what would be decent money, you have a family. You can barely, after everything, then you care barely support your family. And you're more able to speak to this. You have a deductible that you can't meet anyways, even though you have health insurance. That's as almost as being uninsured. So we have all of those issues, and I don't know what the solution is to that. But that is one of the things that is a huge barrier to wellness within the profession, health insurance and the ability to pay for getting well, the ability to find people to get us well. We are becoming a cash only society in terms of wellness. BRIAN:                                  I consider myself very lucky because I have a psychiatrist, I've been seeing for 15 years, and he treats. I have one of the few treating psychiatrists out there with his therapy. But we also have the ghost networks that you may be familiar with. And I'm getting off on tangents, where you can't, even if you have health insurance, you can't find a treatment provider because they don't take insurance. CHRIS:                                   Where do we go? A lot of good activity now happening. You've got Pledge. You've got some state task forces going. Got a lot of discussion. Societally, we're seeing more vulnerability to talk about these issues, whether it's Hollywood stars, or sports stars, there's just more discussion, which I think is healthy. If we're a three or four right now, how do we get to a six or seven? How do we start to move the needle? Culture shifts in any society- BRIAN:                                  It's one person at a time. It's one person at a time. If you're talking, there's no magic pill to culture shift. We talked about this. It is one person at a time. There's one bar association at a time. There's one law firm at a time. And you hope, you hope, that the Malcolm Gladwell theories kick in, and you hit a tipping point. But it is much more, again, it is much more on different levels societal. If I can't afford treatment, what's the difference what the path is if I can't get there? Why should I tell anyone if I can't afford to get there? In Texas, we have a fund where if you go to them, a lawyer can get treatment. I believe it's an endowed fund privately. And maybe someone will correct me on this when they listen to it. But we have to find different ways to ... It's more than just laying the path. People have to be able to walk on it. BRIAN:                                  And if you can't afford to get the help, other than 12 step, and 12 step is great, Smart Recovery's great, Refuge Recovery is great, but they're all mutual aid. Mutual aid is not treatment. Mutual aid is maintaining connection, which is important. If you can't afford the treatment, and you have no way through that path, that's a huge problem that goes beyond the legal profession. When we talk about the legal profession, what we can do, I think we have to have a more societal view of that. How do we correct that? CHRIS:                                   Yeah. There's an interconnectedness to a lot of different- BRIAN:                                  You can't sever this. You can't sever out health insurance accessibility from all the other issues within the profession because most of the profession is solo and small. CHRIS:                                   And even on a tangent, one of the reasons I got involved in the wellbeing movement was I feel like there is a gap in expectations for what people think practicing law will be like, and ultimately what they find that it's going to be like, whether that happens in law school, or whether that happens because of law school debt. That again, to be a good lawyer, one has to be a healthy lawyer. And more and more, people are finding themselves boxed into a spot where they're actually doing something that they're not finding professional satisfaction in, which is then causing ... It can cause other things to kind of spin off from there. BRIAN:                                  I agree. I agree. Every lawyer is a story. Every lawyer is more than just the person under stress. Every lawyer brings their entire history of trauma, of however they grew up, family. CHRIS:                                   Family. BRIAN:                                  They bring it all through the door of that firm. They bring it all to the courthouse. So whatever that stress is may not just be the product of what's going on at that moment, the case, fulfilled expectations, unfulfilled expectations. It may be the product of a life story that has shaped someone that made them more susceptible to those issues. Does that make sense? CHRIS:                                   It does. BRIAN:                                  So we have to address the story and not just the moment that the lawyer is in. CHRIS:                                   Yeah. Anything else that you want to kind of relay as we talk to our policy holders and other interested listeners about just kind of the current state of attorney wellbeing? BRIAN:                                  If we want to change the paradigm of attorney wellbeing, for me personally, I think the most powerful tool is continue to encourage people to tell their stories. Keep telling the stories. Everyone identifies with aspects of other people's lives. There's going to be something to identify with. The connections, stories bring connection. Keep bringing people in to tell stories. Just encourage that. And I think through the power of storytelling, we will start to see more and more people tell their stories, and then they'll tell their stories. And I think that is how. CHRIS:                                   That reduces stigma. That reduces vulnerability. BRIAN:                                  That's right. I think as we reduce stigma, we will better empower lawyers to seek recovery. CHRIS:                                   Yeah. Brian, thank you. BRIAN:                                  Thank you. CHRIS:                                   We appreciate your time, and we appreciate your perspectives. And obviously, you're doing wonderful work in the storytelling side of the ledger because it's important that through the experiences of you and telling your personal story that it makes a difference. BRIAN:                                  I think law firms need to realize, and I think big firms are starting to do this, is creating a wellness program has different levels. There's storytelling. There is risk management. There is- CHRIS:                                   Scientific studies. BRIAN:                                  Yes. And there is the pure wellness aspect. How do we reduce stress? How do we become happier? What can we do to allow our lawyers, within the framework of our representation of clients, to feel better about themselves and what they do? Law firms are in a business. This is a business, and they are not yogis. We have to be realistic. Law firms are there to represent clients at the highest level possible. What holes do we need to fill to make that happen? Because that is what we do. We represent clients. And so we have to fill all these different gaps, the storytelling gap, the risk management gap, the wellness gap. CHRIS:                                   Got it. Again, thank you so much. And I hope you enjoyed listening to this podcast. As you know, ALPS is committed to being a leader in the wellbeing issues of the day affecting the legal profession. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. If you have any other ideas for topics on the wellbeing, please let us know. Thank you.   Brian Cuban, the younger brother of Dallas Mavericks owner and entrepreneur Mark Cuban, is a Dallas based attorney, author and addiction recovery advocate. He is graduate of Penn State University and The University of Pittsburgh School of Law. Brian has been in long term recovery from alcohol, cocaine and bulimia since April of 2007. His first book, Shattered Image: My Triumph Over Body Dysmorphic Disorder,” chronicles his first-hand experiences living with, and recovering from, twenty-seven years of eating disorders, and Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD). Brian's most recent, best-selling book, The Addicted Lawyer, Tales of The Bar, Booze, Blow, & Redemption is an un-flinching look back at how addiction and other mental health issues destroyed his career as a once successful lawyer and how he and others in the profession redefined their lives in recovery and found redemption. Brian has spoken at colleges, universities, conferences, non-profit and legal events across the United States and in Canada. Brian has appeared on prestigious talks shows such as the Katie Couric Show as well as numerous media outlets around the country. He also writes extensively on these subjects. His columns have appeared and he has been quoted on these topics on CNN.com, Foxnews.com, The Huffington Post, Above The Law, The New York Times, and in online and print newspapers around the world. Learn more at www.briancuban.com.

Carthage, Nauvoo, and Warsaw, Illinois form a bit of an anti-Mormon Triangle.  Most Mormons know about the first 2 cities, but what do you know about the third?  In our next conversation, we'll get acquainted with both Brian Stutzman and Warsaw, Illinois, once a hotbed of anti-Mormon sentiment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkRwGiO2RFU Brian:  Before the Saints came to Nauvoo and before Warsaw was even started, there were some tracts of land on both sides of Mississippi. It doesn't sound politically correct, but on the Iowa side, (Iowa was a territory,) the government set up what was called the Half-breed Tract. Basically, it was for people that would be given land if they had one parent that was Native American, and another one that was a white person. That's why it was called Half-breed Tract. Well, the government gave this land away. And these Indians, half-Indians, half-breeds, whatever the term was in that time period, they didn't want it. So land speculators, like I said, Isaac Galland came, and would give them pennies on the dollar. He and his land development company had thousands of acres over on the Iowa side by Montrose, which became later the Zarahemla Stake. Well on the other side of the river by Commerce and Hotchkiss which became Nauvoo... GT:  Yeah, Commerce became Nauvoo. Brian:  So the United States government had 3.5 million acres. They had three different tracts. They called them military tracts, or bounty tracts, and basically, after the War of 1812, the United States government owed soldiers back pay. They didn't have any money, but they had all this land on the western frontier. That's what this military tract was. Essentially, if you were a soldier in the War of 1812, you would get 160 acres in one of these three military tracts. One of them came through western Illinois.  It covered 12 counties. Like I said, it's 3.5 million acres, so it's sizable. Well, the soldiers up in New England didn't want to move. Some of them didn't want to move, at least to Western Illinois, so they would sell their land for pennies on the dollar. So Isaac Galland and other land speculators had land on both sides of the Mississippi and they heard about Joseph Smith being in Liberty Jail, and he wrote him and said, "If you're looking for a place for your people, I'll make you a deal--nothing down...."  That's one reason I think the saints moved to Quincy and then on up as soon as Joseph escaped from Liberty to go up to Nauvoo. Brian is the first person to write a history of Warsaw, and we'll learn more about the dynamics that led to people of that city to storm the Carthage Jail and kill Joseph Smith, Jr.  Brian also had an interesting experience! Brian: I later became really good friends with the mayor, Tiffany Murphy and her husband Chris Bass. They had me over for dinner multiple times, took me out on the river. It was really cool. My experience with Warsaw not only on my multiple trips back because I was doing research for this book, but an apex of it was spending two nights in the bedroom of Thomas Sharp. GT:  There you go. GT:  Oh wow. Brian:  Now my wife says, “Is kind of like staying in the bedroom of Hitler or something?  Was it dark? Was it positive?” Thomas Sharp was editor of the newspaper and leader of the mob that stormed the jail in Carthage.  We'll talk about him quite a bit over the next few weeks.  We'll also talk about the events that led to a big rivalry between Nauvoo and Warsaw.  Check out our conversation…. Carthage, Nauvoo, and Warsaw formed an anti-Mormon triangle that led to the prophet Joseph Smith's death. Brian Stutzman has written the first history of Warsaw, Illinois. If you're interested in Joseph Smith, don't miss our conversations about the First Vision! 292: First Vision Conflicts (Vogel) 291: 1835 Account of First Vision (Vogel) 290: Making a Case for Melchizedek Priesthood in 1831? (Vogel) 289: Methodist Visions (Vogel)

Innovation. We love to talk about it, everyone wants it. Innovation is critical for people and organizations to grow. But we all mean different things when we say it. Today I have a conversation about how innovation is a conversation with Brian Ardinger. He's the director of Innovation at Nenet (which owns my student debt! Hi Nelnet!) and the host of InsideOutside.io, a community for innovators and entrepreneurs that produces a great podcast and a conference that brings together startup and enterprise organizations to talk innovation. There are three key conversations worth designing that we discuss and I want you to have your ears perked up for each as you listen to this episode. Each conversation can help you navigate the innovation process inside or outside your organization.  These three are the pre-conversation, the conversation about where to look for innovation and the conversation about patience. Brian specializes in a unique perspective on where to look for innovation. More on that in a moment. The Pre-Innovation Conversation Before you even start to talk about ideas or technology, it's essential to start with the end in mind. What kind of innovation is the company really looking for? Skip the pre-conversation and you have no idea of where you're heading. As Brian points out “without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with...the process itself of level setting... I don't think it takes a long time.” Brian and I didn't dive into tools to help with that conversation, so I put a few into the show notes. Mapping the innovation conversation can be done in lots of ways. One is thinking about evolutionary vs revolutionary change, another is about tangible vs intangible change, like rethinking policies or business models vs remaking product or space design.  I *just* did a webinar on this topic with my partner in the Innovation Leadership Accelerator, Jay Melone, hosted by the amazing people at Mural. Templates of the two innovation leadership frameworks we outlined are there in Mural for you to download and use, along with the webinar video to help you along. Also check out Mapping Innovation, by Greg Satell. You can download his playbook free in the show notes.  Where to look for innovation Brian's Inside/outside perspective is that innovation can be a conversation between the inside of a company and the outside world. Some innovation will happen internally, and some innovation can be brought from the outside in: the exchange and acquisition of ideas and technology from outside your organization is an important conversation for enterprise organizations to be having. When you're trying to innovate, it can be tempting to look in familiar places. If you're a financial technology firm, it can be tempting to look to fintech startups for what's next and to try to innovate through acquisition. But you'll also be looking were your competitors will be looking. Try an innovation approach based on Horizontal Evolution - look to the sides and edges of the landscape. Brian describes this approach as “playing a different ball game”.  The conversation about patience Innovation does not happen overnight. Real change takes time and that takes real patience. Brian also points out that organizations need to be having a bigger conversation, about what else needs to change to make real innovation flourish inside the organization. Hint: it's generally more than you bargained for.  As he says “Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model...And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins.” Often people think innovation is about the idea, but it's a much, much longer conversation. That is, in fact, the first “Myth of Innovation” from Scott Berkun's excellent book: The Myth that innovation is about an epiphany, not hard work. It was a real treat to have a conversation with Brian about some of these key issues...I hope you enjoy the episode and happy innovating! Brian on the Web: https://insideoutside.io/ https://twitter.com/ardinger https://www.nxxt.co/ Innovation Leadership Models from the Mural Webinar https://blog.mural.co/innovation-leadership Mapping Innovation by Greg Satell https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook-Navigating-Disruptive/dp/1259862259 Download the Playbook for Free: https://www.gregsatell.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook.pdf Horizontal Evolution https://evolutionnews.org/2015/08/horizontal_gene/ An amazing summary from Scott Berkun about his solid book, Myths of Innovation: https://scottberkun.com/2013/ten-myths-of-innnovation/ A few more gems from Greg Satell on the Rules and questions central to innovation: https://medium.com/@digitaltonto/on-december-9th-1968-a-research-project-funded-by-the-us-department-of-defense-launched-a-ee063b7585f0 https://hbr.org/2013/02/before-you-innovate-ask-the-ri Transcription: Daniel: Welcome to the conversation factory. Brian, I'm glad we made the time to make this happen. Um, the reason I'm excited to talk to you is, is that not everybody is, is open or interested in the, the analogy that a company has to have a conversation with the outside world that they can't just, you know, put up some walls and just figure everything out inside those four walls that they have to go outside and have a dialogue with the world in lots of different ways. And the way you do that is, is through helping companies think about inside innovation versus outside innovation, which is my way of like teeing up the how you, how do you talk about what you do with people when you, when you meet people, like how do you contextualize what it is that you do? Brian: Well, I think a lot of things, uh, Daniel around this particular topic, it's this whole inside/ outside innovation. It's kind of come to us over the years of working first on the outside with startups and trying to understand how do they develop new ideas and, and build things. And then, uh, you know, as I was having conversations with startups and helping them navigate that, I kept having conversations with corporations and bigger companies saying, you know, how are you doing this? How are you taking these early stage companies and through an accelerator program and that, and, and kind of getting them traction in that faster than we can do in our own walls. And so that started to have conversations with the corporations and the people inside organizations and saying, hey, how can we interact with the outside world and, and think and move and act more like a startup or, uh, become a little bit more adaptive in how we do that. So I think it was an evolution of just having conversations and figuring out what's working, what's not working in this world of change and disruption that we're living in. Daniel: Yeah. So like there's two layers here, which I think are interesting to unpack. I've learned this new term, the idea of an accelerated work environment and this idea of like, let's speed up the conversation about innovation and let's not just put our feet up and look into space and hope a great idea comes to us. Like, let's structure it and let's do it faster. And so can you talk a little bit about like how you structure an accelerator? Like what does it mean to accelerate people through the innovation process from your approach? Brian: Yeah, so I think a lot of it, like when I go in and talk to bigger companies, first thing I like to do is kind of do a level set of what does innovation even mean to the people in the room. Uh, because innovation has become such a word that's, you know, so limp, so to speak. It can mean anything to anybody. Uh, and so kind of understanding that level set of what does innovation mean to the company? How do they define it? Um, is it transformational innovation where it's, you know, we've got to become the next Uber and disrupt our industry? Or is it a innovation from the standpoint of value creation where we're looking at ways to optimize and incrementally improve what we're building? And so from that perspective, you know, it's, once you have that level set, then you can start thinking about, well, how, what are the particular tactics that you can work through depending on what kind of objectives you want to have and, and what you're trying to accomplish. Brian: So I think that's the first place we start. And then how we do that. Um, again, I think a lot of is trying to help them understand that you've got to place a lot of bets on innovation and innovation is not, um, you know, it's by default working in the new, it's working in this area of gray and this area of uncertainty, Daniel: which means there's got to be failure, right? Like there's going to have to be failure. Brian: Yeah. So, yeah, this uncertainty by default, requires you to figure out and make assumptions and, work through this... Areas of the unknown. And that's very difficult for, a lot of folks to work through. You know, especially at companies and people who are used to having a plan or having an execution model that, that they just execute on. Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model… Brian: And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins. Daniel: So...I'm comfortable with taking this seemingly simple question of like, we want to innovate more and turning it into this, really stretching it out into a much more complicated conversation. Like I'm wondering if people you deal with ever get frustrated with, (you): "well, Brian, you're just making this complicated. Like, we just want to innovate. Just teach us how to innovate. Let's get started." Versus like, let's talk about your strategic goals. Like I can see how some people might get a little impatient with the, with the bigger picture, with the strategic thinking approach. Brian: Sure. Yeah. And I think, and I think it doesn't have to take a long time on to go through that particular process, but I think if you don't start off on that common definition, then you run the risk later on. And you know, why are we doing this? Why is it not working? You know, we said that, uh, you know, we need to have x, Y, z outcome and these brand new bets that you're putting on the table are not getting us an outcome that we want. Um, but you know, without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with. So I think, so the, the process itself of level setting I don't think takes a long time to, to make that happen. And I think, but I do think in general, to change a culture or to move the company towards having that innovation mindset set or innovation as a competency to so to speak, does take a long time. Um, but you can do that through a variety of tactics and in ways that doesn't, um, change, change it all overnight. You know, it doesn't have to be something where, um, you know, you're basically creating something brand new and, and throwing out everything that you've done in the past and, and hoping that the new thing works. Uh, it's really a series of iterative bets that you kind of de-risked these new ideas as you're, as you're approaching them into the world and seeing what happens. Daniel: Yeah. Now, now here's the, the piece that I think that, that we were talking about that's interesting is that companies can innovate through outside acquisitions or through outside collaborations, like through working with startups. And maybe that makes it seem "like, wow, that's neat, there is an easier way to do this". we don't have to do it all ourselves. We can, we can turn outwards and see, uh, not just learn from other people, but actually like bring that outside innovation inside. Like, and that seems to me like, uh, a complicated process to navigate. Like how do you facilitate, how do you facilitate that conversation and make it smooth for people? Brian: Yeah. So I think, at least for a lot of folks, you know, the idea of looking outside is not become, it's not a novel concept anymore. You know, maybe five or six years ago it was like, oh, what's one of these things called startups out there? And you know, we're, we're seeing more and more hearing more and more about it. So it's, it's not a novel concept that, hey, the ability for two women in the garage or in a dorm room to spin up something and get some traction and create something of huge value in the world...that's, that's there and that's not going away. And that's speeding up. And so I think, uh, that, uh, first part of the conversation happening, having people understand that, people have the power and tools and capabilities and access to markets and cheap technology, et Cetera, to really disrupt things is there. Brian: So if we understand that, then what can we do to kind of help navigate that? And, and I think the first thing is just, you know, raise your hand and say, Hey, there are things going on outside. Let's, uh, let's take an inventory or a map on discover what's going on...and one of the, pitfalls I see a lot of companies jump into is let's look in our industry. You know, what's happening in our industry. And that's great, and that you should do that of course. But, um, that's also probably where 99% of your competitors are also playing in that same field. And so I find a lot of times it helps to look at adjacent industries or industries far and away, uh, different from your own to see what's going on, and look for clues or models or technologies or, or talent that may give you a different advantage, if you put those pieces together differently than playing, in the same ball game as your competitors are playing. So, you know, I, I see a lot of people going to these conferences and looking for startups in the fintech space and all you have are corporations in the Fintech area looking at Fintech startups where a lot of times I think, it's better to maybe go to a more of a horizontal conference and looking at AI or uh, you know, different types of data conferences and that would give you a different perspective on how those technologies could be used in your industry or in somebody else's, industry, for example. Daniel: Do you have a story like, cause it's funny as you're telling me the story, like I'm realizing this is, this is the classic innovators trick, right? Which is, yeah, it's, and it's a classic trick from nature, right? Which is, people don't realize that evolution isn't just, um, vertical where you adapt and survive. But there's horizontal transfer of, of genes in nature. Like literally the reason we have mitochondria is because we ate them, you know, a billion years ago. And all of the energy in our bodies is made by an alien organism that has its own DNA, which I find a very, it's always just like an extraordinary fact. Um, but you know, and I've been telling my clients this for a long time too. Like what do you, do you have, uh, a story to share of a surprising transfer of, of innovation from industry to industry in case there's any doubters in the world. Brian: Yeah, it's, let, I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head, but I know I've seen it on the reverse side. For example, we've seen, because I run a conference called inside, outside/innovation. And, one of the things we do is we, uh, go out and find startups in a variety of different markets, bring them to a showcase and then bring corporations around to kind of see what they're building and why and hopefully make some connections for that. And where I've seen it happen is a lot of times where, a startup will be working in a particular vertical market, early stage, uh, and they think they've got a solution in, you know, retail or whatever, and a corporation conversation will come around and they'll say, hey, I love your technology, but you're looking in the retail space. Did you know that you could apply this to insurance? Brian: And the light bulb will kind of go off in the entrepreneur's mind. It's like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to potentially go into a different market or get traction with an early customer that I didn't have before. And so I need to happen that way. Um, and I'm sure the reverse could happen as well where a corporation, uh, is, you know, looking at a variety of startups out there and say, hey, that startup's, not in our industry, but we could definitely apply that technology to what we're doing and leverage it in some way. Daniel: So that actually sparks, I mean, I definitely, I want to make sure we talk about the conference before we, before we leave, but in a way, like you said, this thing that was really interesting about startups, you know, they're, they're trying to, uh, you know, iterate and build their own, um, you know, their own growth engine. Right? Um, I would imagine that some of them are not necessarily open to this idea of like, well look, we're, we've got our roadmap and we're trying to build our own flywheel and move it, get that moving. This, they may not be open to this, this pivot or this expansion. Uh, there's like, oh, you know, well, we're just focusing on market X and like, do you want me to also like expand our, our code base so that we can also take advantage of, of why and collaborate with these guys. Like I how do you sort of, I know you've done a lot of work on building community through, through the conference. Like how do you find startups are expanding their perspectives to being open to this collaborative conversation versus like, nope, we're just doing our thing. Brian: Yeah. And I think a lot of it depends on where the startup is in their lifecycle. A lot of the folks that we bring in are probably seed stage and so they, they haven't figured out their business model. They haven't figured out the exact markets sometimes. Uh, and they're looking for that early traction. And you know, one of the reasons we hold this in the Midwest is because, you know, venture capital and the traditional ways of kind of scaling a business in Silicon Valley don't exist out here. And so you've got to find customers. You've got to find ways to, um, to, to get that early traction. And a lot of that means, you know, getting out and finding those early customers. And so having conversations with customers, uh, real people out there and trying to define what problems are out there in the marketplace and then create a solution, uh, to meet those problems and then meet the market where it's at, I think is more effective way a lot of times in the Midwest here or in places outside of your core tech hubs that don't have the, the against the, um, the advantage of getting a venture capital and being able to have a year or two young, two year runway to figure out, uh, how, where that market is. Brian: So I think, I think so part of that is that, um, I think when I'm talking to start ups, you know, I put my "accelerate" hat on and working as a person who is helping startups through that process, a lot of times I'll quite frankly tell them to stay away from corporates until they, until they figured out some of that stuff. Cause it's very easy to go down the rabbit hole of um, hey, if we just get this one big customer on our plate, we'll be good to go. But a lot of times you know that the timing of the two types of organizations don't match up and it can very, very easily kill start up really pretty quickly. Daniel: Yeah. And it can kill them in that what they're, they're focusing, they'd lose their focus or their, they spread themselves too thin. You know, so like what, what sort of, I think beautiful about what you do is that there's this symmetry in a way you have a community driven approach to innovation through the conference you do building community, but building community so that you have a group of startups who are interested in this type of thinking so that companies can have an innovation community. So they're not just going it alone, that they have a view to what's, what's open in the world for them. I mean, I guess my question is like, have you always been so community driven? Like how did you come to value community as an approach, as in a solution to, to these challenges that you're seeing? Brian: So, I mean, I guess I've always felt community is, is a way to accelerate your learning. Uh, and I think early stage ideas, no matter what they are, whether they're inside a startup or inside a corporation, the key to a lot of those taking place in actually taking hold is that the speed of learning. How fast can you, um, take your assumptions and navigate those and understand where you're on the right track or not, and, um, get to that next stage that you need to get to. So, um, community's always been away from me, uh, personally and otherwise to help accelerate those learnings, whether it's, you know, again, connecting somebody to somebody else who can, uh, an expert in a different field or, um, someone who can help me navigate to something else that I didn't know I needed. Um, and so I think it started from that perspective and it started because, uh, you know, quite frankly, when I started a lot of this stuff seven, eight years ago, uh, the, you know, entrepreneurship and startups were, were smaller, uh, both, you know, nationally as well as in our own backyard. Brian: And so part of it was like, well, if we're going to do this, we're going to, we can't do it all are ourselves. So how do we create a community that allows startups to raise their hand and first say, Hey, I want to be entrepreneurial. I want to try some things. I want to build something. In my backyard. Yeah. And then what do I need and what am I missing and how do I then can be that catalyst to help, um, folks figure that out. Uh, and so it was an evolution of just having conversations, going to different cities, uh, meeting different people, starting a podcast, you know, telling stories, um, you know, starting a new newsletter and then, uh, eventually a conference and everything else around it. Um, and then all the while, you know, consulting and helping companies kind of figure it out on both sides. Brian: And, um, it's been fun. It's been fun to see that journey and continue to figure out what the, what the next phase is as we build it out. Daniel: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I'd begs the question, what is, what's the next phase? Can you talk about it? Is it Secret? Brian: Yeah, no! Um, so yeah, so inside, outside innovation, you know, we started four years ago actually with the podcast and the original idea was it was called inside, outside, and it was an inside look at startups outside the valley with the idea that their stories, outside the tech hubs that need to be told and how can we help our entrepreneurs, uh, figure that stuff out. And so that's where it started. And again, it'll happen with further conversations as, as we built that particular audience and had conversations around those particular topics, we kept getting asked by innovators in bigger companies, you know, it's like, how are we doing this? Brian: How, how's this working? We want to be connected to startups. We want to understand this new way of innovating things like design thinking and lean startup in that work, uh, becoming methodologies and tactics that could apply to, you know, start ups outside of a big corporation or, or startups within a corporation that were trying to spin up new ideas. So through that we started the inside outside innovation podcast as the, as the way to have those conversations and talk about corporate innovation and how we're corporate matching with startups and how corporate venture play out differently and how we're internal innovation accelerators popping up all around. And what were the different tactics that folks were using through that. We've kind of created this weird community. It's almost like two communities, but the, the advantages by bringing them together, they both learned from each other. So that's kind of how, that's how it's kind of evolved. What's next? We're trying to figure out the third year of the insight off the innovation summit. Uh, we haven't got the dates and, and that solidify, but it's looking like we're probably going to do it sometime in the end of October. I'm in the process, I'm looking at writing a book around this concept of collaborative and innovation and this innovation as a competency. And then, um, we'll just continue with the podcast and the newsletter and keep growing our conversations with great people out there. Daniel: You know, Brian, it's really, it's, I mean it's, it's lovely to talk to you about this stuff because, you know, the, the ecological approach you have to this, to this processes, you know, it's, it's clearly organic. Like, like anything else, it's starting a conversation and then you've gotten feedback from the world and over time you've, you've built more than you've added to it. Like it's, it's a, it's just guy. It's a wave that is sort of, it has its ups and downs clearly. But you're just continuing to, to ride that wave, which was really awesome. Brian: What the, it comes back to, you know, my feeling is that obviously with the world changing in the, in the speed of change that's happening out there, everybody is going to have to take on some of the skillsets of, of the early innovator. You know, again, a startup entrepreneur or, um, or innovator are going to have to have kind of core capabilities or characteristics that allow you to adapt and be nimble and, and, uh, execute. Daniel: Unless you want a robot to do your job! Brian: Yeah. That's executing different ways that, that you didn't have or that were different in the way that you could execute in the past. So things like, you know, curiosity having a bias towards learning characteristics like having a, an a customer focus and this bias towards problem solving for that customer. You know, the, the skill of collaboration and you know, knowing that you can't build everything yourself. Brian: There's bias towards team, um, you know, some of the characteristics of just speed, you know, how can you have this bias towards action and experimentation. And then finally having kind of the reverse of that you are having patience and that bias towards that long term value creation. You know, I think those are some of the core concepts that make up, um, this new world that we're living in. And the more individuals, whether you're, you know, a traditional manager or a entrepreneurial founder, those are the skillsets that are going to take you to the next level in the world that we're living in. Daniel: It sounds like a good book already, Brian. I don't know. I like it. Brian: I'm still outlining. Daniel: It sounds like a pretty good proposal to me. Um, so listen, I, I, we're, we're up against our, our, our time together. Uh, is there anything I haven't asked you about that I should, that we should talk about? Any, any, any final thoughts? Brian: Yeah, I'm curious for, you've obviously been in the space of helping people have conversations and that I'm always curious to understand what have you learned from helping companies and people kind of navigate a, this world of change, uh, and in this world of innovation, what are some of the things that are obstacles or things that stand out that, uh, I could take back to my audience as well? Well, Daniel: I mean, do you have a hard stop in the next three minutes because, no, go ahead. We can go over a little bit. Well, I mean, for me, what really resonated in what you were talking about is the necessity for patients. And I think this is one thing that's really, really hard, um, for people because we want to go fast and we want to have results. Um, but we also need to slow things down. So one of the things that like I'm becoming more aware of in my own work is psychological safety, which people, you know, Google identified as like the main characteristic of effective teams. The ability, the willingness, the openness to saying what's happening, to be able to speak your mind, to say what's right or to say what's wrong. And that, I don't know, that stuff doesn't really come for free. Uh, it's a really, you have to cultivate that environment. Daniel: And so for me, you know, my angle and entry point is always that somebody, somebody has to design that conversation. Um, if a group of, you know, if a group of people is gonna talk about what we're going to do next and how to innovate, we can either contribute content or we can contribute process. Um, if the, to me, the most important and precious conversation is when a group of people is coming together, the fact that you're willing to, that you have a framework, I'm guessing, to stretch out the conversation about what's our innovation roadmap and where are we placing our bets allows people to say like, okay, what's my holistic view of this? It creates, it creates safety, right? It creates a moment where, where we can have the conversation about innovation, we can have the conversation about how we're gonna brainstorm. Daniel: We can have the conversation about how we're going to, uh, evaluate ideas and how we know if they're good or not. Um, and so for me, I think, um, I feel like I'm ranting now, but I was at a problem framing workshop, uh, with my, my friend Jay Malone, who has a company called new haircut. They do a lot of design sprint training and he was teaching a problem framing workshop. And at the end of the workshop, he presented, uh, you know, on one hand, a very straightforward, like, here, this is what problem framing is in the essence. Like, uh, who has the problem, uh, why does it matter? Um, when does it happen? Uh, like, you know, think about like, where to play and how to win. And this one woman said like, well, yeah, what about, uh, uh, how do we know when it's been solved? You know, how do we know if it's working? And this is, I think one of the biggest challenges with, with companies is we don't know like what good looks like. We don't know when to start. We don't know how to stop working and grinding it out. Um, well, and the metrics Brian: are so different from existing business model versus a new business model that you don't even know who the customers are and the value proposition you're creating at the beginning. Daniel: Yeah. So I mean, for me, like I find the, one of the biggest challenges of innovation is that people bring me in to say like, okay, let's help this team coach through this process. Meanwhile, they've already got a job that takes 100% of their time. Um, and they look at me and they're like, this guy has just given us extra work to do. You know, the workshop that I come in is taking them away from their quote unquote real job. The, the work that I asked them to do to go out and do the interviews and to, to get customer contact looks like it's taking away time for them. And so this idea that that innovation's like something you can buy or pay someone else to do. To me, I want people to be earning their own innovation. But the problem is that most people are at 110% capacity. Daniel: And You bring in somebody like me who says, okay, let's do some design thinking stuff. Let's do a, you know, even if it's a week long sprint, which doesn't give you everything you need, you know, if it's a six week process, it's people are like, Oh man, that was great, but oh, that was hard and I never want to do that again. It's like, it's really, really challenging to get people to find time to innovate. And that's frustrating to me. Brian: Absolutely. Daniel: As a person who just really wants people to get their hands dirty with it so that they value it and, and participated in it. So, I don't know. I don't know what the balance is there. That's... I don't know. I don't know if that's a question with an answer, but Brian: I don't know if there's a clear answer for that one. No, no. Daniel: that, oh, so, yeah, I mean that, that's, that's, that's my perspective. I don't know if that, if that's helpful to you at all, but that's, that's… Brian: Very much so, very much so. Daniel: Is there, is there anything else we should I this, this is definitely the shortest episode. You know, I'm, I'm sort of enjoying or slash you know, floundering in the, in the 30 minute time zone. So I just want to make sure that we've covered everything that you want to cover … Brian: No, it's been great, thanks for having me on the show and the opportunity to talk about insideoutside.io and everything we're doing. Daniel: Yeah. So like that's the, that's the final question. Like where, uh, where can people find all things insideoutside and Brian Ardinger on the Internet. Brian: Yeah. Thanks Daniel. Yeah. So, uh, obviously you can go to the website insideoutside.io that has our podcast, our newsletters sign up for that. Um, and obviously I'm very, um, out there on Twitter and Linkedin in that happy to have conversations. So reach out and say hi. Daniel: Well we will do that. Um, Brian, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's really, it's always interesting to have some patience and just slow down and have some of these conversations about this stuff, that's I think really, really important. Like you said, the future is unwritten and uncertain and all of us need to have skills of adaptability, the inside and I think both sides of the ecosystem that you're a co-creating - the innovator, the startups need to learn from big companies how to scale and big companies need to learn from startups, how to be more nimble. So I think it's really a really important dialogue that you're facilitating. It's really cool. Brian: Thanks for having me on the show!

Paul Mattal is the Director of Network Systems at Akamai, one of the largest content delivery networks in the U.S. Akamai is a major part of the backbone of the internet and on today’s episode, Paul is going to talk about the massive amount of telemetry that comes into Akamai and the various decision support tools his group is in charge of providing to internal customers. On top of the analytics aspect of our chat, we also discussed how Paul is approaching his team’s work being relatively new at Akamai. Additionally, we covered: How does Paul access and use internal customer knowledge to improve the quality of applications they make? When to build a custom decision support tool vs. using a BI tool like Tableau? How does Akamai measure if their analytics are creating customer value? The process Paul uses with the customer to design a new data product MVP How Paul decides which of the many analytics applications and services “get love” when resources are constrained Paul’s closing advice about taking the time to design and plan before you code Resources and Links: Akamai Twitter @pjmattal Paul Mattal on LinkedIn Paul Mattal on Facebook Quotes from Today’s Episode “I would say we have a lot of engagement with [customers] here. People jump to answering questions with data and they’re quick. They know how to do that and they have very good ideas about how to make sure that the approaches they take are backed by data and backed by evidence.” — Paul Mattal “There’s actually a very mature culture here at Akamai of helping each other. Not necessarily taking on an enormous project if you don’t have the time for it, but opening your door and helping somebody solve a problem, if you have expertise that can help them.” — Paul Mattal “I’m always curious about feedback cycles because there’s a lot of places that they start with telemetry and data, then they put technology on top of it, they build a bunch of software, and look at releases and outputs as the final part. It’s actually not. It’s the outcomes that come from the stuff we built that matter. If you don’t know what outcomes those look like, then you don’t know if you actually created anything meaningful.” — Brian O’Neill “We’ve talked a little bit about the MVP approach, which is about doing that minimal amount of work, which may or may not be working code, but you did a minimum amount of stuff to figure out whether or not it’s meeting a need that your customer has. You’re going through some type of observation process to fuel the first thing, asset or output that you create. It’s fueled by some kind of observation or research upfront so that when you go up to bat and take a swing with something real, there’s a better chance of at least a base hit.” — Brian O’Neill “Pretend to be the new guy for as long as you can. Go ask [about their needs/challenges] again and get to really understand what that person [customer] is experiencing, because I know you’re going to able to meet the need much better.” — Paul Mattal Episode Transcript Brian: Hi. We’re back with Experiencing Data here and I have Paul Mattal on the line who is currently the Director of Network Systems at Akamai. How’s going, Paul? Paul: It’s going great. Thanks, Brian. Brian: I’m glad to have you on the show and you’re working at one of these companies that I think of as kind of like oxygen in the internet. It’s everywhere but you don’t really see it because it’s all invisible and that’s actually this big thing behind the scenes. You’re swimming around the internet as all these data and Akamai’s in the middle of all of a lot of that, largely responsible for making sure it’s moving quickly and is available at the right time and in the right places. As I understand it, you’re in a new position, you’ve changed domains, previously you were working in the space of legal patent work, digital forensics, and you built some tools that your previous company makes. You can tell us a little bit about those. Now, you’re moving more into the bits and bytes of the internet and you’re responsible for creating data products like decision support tools for people that keep the Akamai network going and running smoothly and anticipating demand? Did I get all that right? Paul: That’s exactly right. At Akamai, we like to think of it as we’re the ones that make the internet work. There’s a notion that the way things work on the internet is you just simply put your content up on a server and the rest is history. But these days, there’s a lot of complexity. There are many, many users who want access to the same content at the same time. Akamai makes that content all available to everyone when they need it and how they need it. In my past job, as you mentioned, was quite a bit different, although it had some similar qualities. I was helping to develop systems and tools for lawyers and for consultants for lawyers, in some cases to analyze patents, to help them better understand their subject matter of patents, so we’ve created some applications there. Here at Akamai, I’m also creating applications and tools to be used by the members of the network’s team who are responsible for deploying and maintaining the whole Akamai network. That breaks down roughly into tools that help us manage our work, tools that helps us with analytics and planning, and also tools that help us visualize data. It is somewhat of a shift. A lot of the domain knowledge is different, but it’s interesting that so many of the problems end up being similar. Brian: Tell us a bit about who the end-customer is. How many internal customers do you have? Do they break up into personas or segments? Like you have network administrators and you have whatever people. Tell us a bit about who those people are that you’re designing these tools for or you’re helping deploy these tools for. Paul: There are a couple of groups. The infrastructure group which is responsible for really deploying all of the servers and maintaining all of the servers. That’s a set of one class of user who is mostly using our tools in a logistical fashion to coordinate and organize their work. There’s a planning team who is thinking about the capacity of our network: Do we have enough for what’s coming down the pike? Do we have the right capacity in the right places? We also have users who are thinking about the architecture of the network and thinking about how we build and optimize our hardware and our network, to continue to be cutting edge and to continue to meet the needs of our customers. So, different people looking at different tools and different data for different purposes. Brian: Cool. Just a little fun question here. This is probably because I don’t know the domain very well. When there’s a big event coming on the internet, let’s take something like the Super Bowl, or the World Cup, or the new Game of Thrones, or whatever, are there literally changes that you guys go and make to facilitate a major event? Or are those actually more like a blip in terms of internet traffic and all of that? Paul: It depends. Certainly, some of those events have been some of the largest data traffic we’ve seen move across our network. Often, there are considerations especially depending on where exactly we expect the viewers to be for those events. We may deploy additional capacity in one geographic area or another. Brian: Going back to the people that are the end of these tools—again, these are decision support tools—how do you know if your team is doing a good job? How do you measure that the end-customers are getting the right information and they believe it, that they’re willing to take action on it? Do you a regular feedback cycle or interaction with these different personas that you talked about? Paul: Yes, That’s one of the most important aspects of what we do is trying to figure out how to measure, how exactly to measure how we’re doing, especially in the analytics space, right in the productivity tool space is a little simpler. We can tell pretty much where the pain points are. People come to us and say, “This interface isn’t working for me or these five things are in five different places,” and they’re going to use them as one. Those are a little bit more straightforward kinds of feedback. With analytics, we find it goes a lot to how successful were we predicting, how much excess capacity did we end up within a place we didn’t need it, for example, and all those kinds of questions. We meet with our customers pretty regularly and we also have some metrics that we compute to give us an idea of how we’re doing. Brian: Are those quantitative then? Those are all quantitative metrics or do you have any type of qualitative conversations that go deeper than like, “I wish there was a filter for the date on this chart,” or stuff like that. Those things do matter and it’s the sum of all those little, tiny details that add up into good experiences typically, but I’m curious if you have any deeper qualitative type of interaction with these end-users. Paul: A lot of what we’re discussing these days, for example, is there’s a tremendous amount of telemetry available that comes off the platform. Numbers about what’s going on in the network that could measure and we could capture. In many cases, a lot of the conversations are about, “Hey, can we capture more of this data? Is there’s somewhere we can get sample more frequently?” or, “Can we get access to this kind of data that we don’t have right now, so that we could be able to optimize more effectively on the things that actually matter, where the actual bottlenecks are in the network,” versus more simplified models based on less data. We’re finding that’s one of the very common kinds of feedback we’re getting is for more data and differently sampled data. Brian: We talked about this a little bit when we did our pre-call on whatever about topics and you mentioned that you have different classes of users in terms of who’s capable of designing an effective tool for themselves. I think you said you’ve got a mix of tools that are custom-built which might have two-way interaction, where data’s being put back in through forms or whatever in the tool. Then you have Tableau and some kind of rear-view mirror type historical reporting interfaces which, as I understand it, those start with the user a blank slate? Is that correct? Then they put together the views that they want and the reporting that they want? Kind of curious just for you to talk about how many people are using custom tools that you built versus the ones that they designed for themselves. Are people doing a good job creating the tools they need for themselves? Do you have a sense of that feedback that they’re looking at the right data, that they know how to interpret it, they know how to visualize it? Can you talk a little bit about that? Paul: Sure. Our organization has hundreds of people in it and I would say at least probably 50%–75% of those users are highly technical, which is very helpful, actually. They often come to us with a better idea of what they need. In some cases, we can give them good interfaces to go build their own tools. The historic approach to that here has been to give them pretty decent access to the data in our databases and even the engines themselves. Many of them are comfortable writing their own queries. But we also have a very mature ecosystem of query exchange. We have this tool that allows people to write their own queries and share them with others, and then others can manipulate those queries further and customize them to their own needs. They’re very familiar with that. The piece we’re bringing in next is this idea of really making visualization also of a self-serve kind of area where, with a tool like Tableau, you can point Tableau at the same data that might be the out part of these queries but then have powerful visualizations on top of that. The other piece of this is how much of it do we do and how much of it do customers create from old cloth. It’s kind of a balance. Some people come to us and say, “Here’s what I need but I don’t know how to do it,” and then they ask us to do it. Sometimes a customer actually originate it and will say, “Here’s the report or this query that I think is interesting,” and we’ll say, “Oh yeah, that’s interesting. Why don’t we bake that into something more sophisticated?” It’s kind of a mixed bag but I would say most people come in to us, there’s usually something that we already have that they can use as a basis and then they can usually modify that further. That’s been a pretty successful model for us because it really lets people get what they want, get the very detailed, precise view that meets their needs, but benefit from all of the other work that we’ve put into to making those views and those approaches effective and mature over many years. Brian: It sounds like you don’t struggle as much with engagement with the analytics. You actually have plenty of that? Or would you say that’s not necessarily entirely true? Paul: Yes. I would say we have a lot of engagement with that here. People jump to answering questions with data and they’re quick. They know how to do that and they have very good ideas about how to make sure that the approaches they take are backed by data and backed by evidence. Very mature in that sense people. Brian: Since you have this mix of these custom tools that you guys are building and how slick, how do you decide which wheel is going to get the most oil? You’ve got these custom tools, you’ve got some Tableau stuff, you’ve got people coming in, maybe they are using Tableau, but they don’t know how to build the reporting they need. Is it based on a business driver? If we get problem X wrong, this cost a lot of money, so we’re going to put our team on this problem and sorry, Jane, you’re going to have to take that Tableau tutorial and figure it out yourself. How do you resource like that? Paul: As with any place, there’s certainly scarcity. Everybody wishes they had choice in people they had and twice them. Maybe even the computing resources and everything else that they wished they had. At a high level, a lot of it is driven by a strategic plan, by an idea for what we as an organization are trying to accomplish. That determines which things get the most people and the most priority. There’s actually a very mature culture here at Akamai of helping each other. Not necessarily taking on an enormous project if you don’t have the time for it, but opening your door and helping somebody solve a problem if you have expertise that can help them. We find that it’s a balance of those things. We work on major roadmaps, large projects or tools for strategic and efficiency. Particularly efficiency reasons that we’re wishing to achieve as an organization. We spend a lot of us of the time helping the folks who need it, to get where they need to get. Brian: That makes sense to me. Is the feedback loop in place such that there’s some point in the future which you look backwards on these projects, or products, or tools that you’ve built and say, “Did we make a dent? What were the success criteria for those? What’s that three month or six month rear-view look like?” Do you guys talk about what that is, so you know whether or not you hit your objectives? “And since project X got four times the resourcing, did we get four times the value or whatever the value was that was determined?” I’m always curious about these feedback cycles because there’s a lot of places that they start with this telemetry and data, then they put technology on top of it, they build a bunch of software, and a lot of times the releases and the platforms are looked at as the outputs and the final part of this and it’s actually not. It’s the outcomes that come from the stuff we built that matter. If you don’t know what outcomes those look like, then you don’t know if you actually created anything meaningful. So, I’m curious, that feedback cycle, does your business know? Like, “We have to see. We can’t get predictions wrong or we don’t want to have a little more than 12% server waste from the wrong prediction, whatever.” I don’t know what those metrics are. Can you talk about that feedback loop from a business and a value perspective? Paul: Sure. Some of the things we’re doing are very tied to specific business goals for certain kinds of […]. These are targets for dollars saved in terms of operating the network at a lower cost. In those areas, we are very acutely being measured pretty much on a yearly basis along those lines. We’re working towards getting better at what happens in between and the rest of the year. You can often go off-track a little bit somewhere in one month and that can cost you down the road. We’ve been focused on trying to get to more of a monthly evaluation where we can break things down, try to deliver a value on a monthly basis, then get feedback from customers, and also to see how they’re affecting the numbers in real world application of this data to actually optimize. They never to learn. Are we consistently on track? Or are we moving in the right direction? I say that it’s definitely an element of what we do. Right now, we’re doing it more like every six months or a year. At a granular level, we’d like to move that to be a much shorter term and focus on constantly delivering smaller chunks of value. Brian: That’s good to hear. My understanding from when we talked to that you be almost what I would call a product manager, even though you’re not developing commercial products but you’re overseeing the creation of these different tools. I’m curious. Do you have the equivalent of a product manager role where one person’s job is to make sure that whatever analytics and/or custom tools you guys build for the network operations team or the team that deploys the servers, they live and breathe that world and they’re totally responsible to service those staff that work on those technical problems? Is that how it’s shaped or is everyone’s touching all of the different parts of Akamai? I’m just wondering how you get into that world. What’s it like to be the server administrator and predicting where to deploy servers? How is that structured? Maybe you don’t have enough staff to break it down that way and I’m asking a leading question, but I’m curious if you could talk about that a little bit. Paul: We actually do have four teams within our group and they are divided up with focus on the different stakeholder groups within the network’s organization. There is definitely some division. There’s also some who sort of cross responsibility but there are definitely folks who know specific subject matter areas very well and who are critical in those areas to anything more than the simple bug fix in an area is going to involve somebody managing that area. Now, for our largest projects of all, we do have product managers as well as project managers involved in the creation of the larger ones. I’d say about two or three are major systems and the other several hundred tools or various pieces that we manage, care and feeding over the years. That stuff is either being taken cared of by one of these SME areas or it’s sort of rolling out to me especially if it’s something new. A large part of my role is helping to at the outset to say, “Let’s define what this tool looks like. What it’s doing? Who is going to use it? What those people need? What are the processes at play here at Akamai that this is a part of? Do we understand those processes? Have we optimized those processes?” That’s a lot of what I end up doing with the rest of my team, to define those new products so that they’ll be the most successful as we build them and get off in the right direction. Brian: That sounds awfully like design to me. Paul: It is. Brian: Is that traditionally how things have been done in this group or is this something that’s new? How’s that being received? Are you getting like, “Just give us the data and we’ll put it together,” and you’re like, “No. Help me understand what are you going to do with it at the end.” It’s just like, “Well, I’ll know when I see it.” Is it that kind of thing or are they like, “Great, let’s get it right.” What’s that process like? Paul: The history of our group is that we have probably not put enough focus on planning and design, but I think it’s an area where people realize that we need to spend more. They really are now focused on that as a goal and understanding that it’s important in many context. That’s not to say that there aren’t sometimes when people will say, “Here’s what I need and I need it tomorrow,” and you know that comes up. It’s a balancing act that is always a challenge, but I think there is an increasing sense and increasing support across the network’s organization and maybe beyond that using some sort of platform organization, other parts of engineering at Akamai. It’s really a much better result if you make a plan upfront, you understand the context into which you’re creating this new thing, and you understand how it’s going to impact processes and flow that occur once you’ve built it. Brian: Maybe you haven’t been there because I know you’re somewhat new in this position but if you’ve been there long enough to go through a full cycle with that where you’ve taken someone through like, “Let’s hold on. Let’s figure out what’s actually needed. What the real problem’s face is like,” and then you’ve gone all the way through maybe building a product or a prototype or something. Have you gone through a full cycle yet? Or are you still in the design phase on some of these? Paul: For a couple of smaller projects, we’ve definitely done that. It’s been posted where people have come and said, “Hey, could you do X?” and we’ve said, “Well, we could do X but that actually requires more code and more effort. We have this other thing over here that actually can accomplish that and then it puts you more in the driver’s seat because you can help maintain it later. How’s that?” Often, the results are very positive. If we can actually get things implemented faster, people are happier in the end, it’s less maintenance for us overall in the long-haul. So, yes on the small things. On the bigger things, those are in progress and we’re excited about those design phases that’s going on now. They’re larger and more productive than they’ve been in the past. We’re excited to see probably by the middle of this year or later in the year that there is also an output of that. Brian: Can you tell us about what some of those activities are? I think some of the people listening to this are not coming from digital-native companies. The whole product design process is maybe foreign to them. Can you tell us about like, “What are you doing during this time? Why aren’t you writing code? You have the data. Put Tableau there and build some reports.” What are you doing that’s not that during this phase? Paul: Usually, the first thing we’re doing is trying to find out who are all the people that interact with this data, or these kinds of systems, or these particular business objects, or aspects of Akamai’s network. Often at the start, we find there’s common problems. There’s people and other parts of the organizations who may already have a tool that allows them to do this. Now we also want to go and observe those users. We want to go find out are they satisfied with the tool and is the tool meeting their needs, which are actually two different questions. Really seeing whether what they’re doing is a process that’s optimal and seeing whether we can create a solution to this new problem or borrow a solution to this new problem and change it in some way that helps everybody. That’s one of the interesting aspects of design here is that there are many groups that interact with the same data in so many different ways. I think a lot of that design phase is about, “Hey, one of the tools out there, how do we integrate them so that they’re the least work for us? How do we make sure that we’re choosing a good solution and we’re actually meeting the user’s needs?” Probably the last part of that, especially in our group is, and not getting stuck on not meeting 100% of any single tool, because in some cases, you’ll get 80% of the use cases for five groups and you have to say, “Okay, that’s fine. For this other case, they’ll do it this way.” That’s a lot what goes into the design process. Really just understanding what the users are looking for, how does that match up with stuff we already have, and then how do we integrate that use case into what we maintain, in a way that is streamlined and effective for them and also streamlined and effective for us. Brian: When you talk about getting to know what they’re going to do with this information and how they want to use it, is that through them self-reporting through, like talking to you in a meeting? Is it through you observing them doing what they’re doing now without the tool? Is this largely like, “Right now I can’t do any of this. I need this tool so I can enable this new thing that I currently don’t do,” or is it more like, “I have this long, convoluted process I have to do in order to achieve X. Can you help me build the tools so I can do it in less time?” One of those there is like a recipe for something already and you’re trying to optimize it and the other one is more like, “This is a new thing I’ve never been able to do but maybe I could with your help.” Do you put it into those buckets and then if it’s the former, how do you figure it out? Is it observation or just them talking to you about how they’re going to use it? How do you figure that out? Paul: There definitely are both of those scenarios come up. We often get requests about processes that already exist. At some point, there’s some tool in there already, sometimes it’s a highly manual process. In that scenario, one of the great assets of this particular group is that we have whole standards, documentation, and work co-optimization group here within network, which is a true treader to have. Usually, when that kind of problem comes up, the first thing we do is say, “Okay, let’s work with the [worker?]group and let’s get a really good map of what this process looks like end-to-end and let’s look at what the steps are, what tools are now, where the pain points are, and then once we have drawn this out so that we understand the context, let’s actually first look and see whether there’s any way we can optimize the process, because the last thing we want to do is to spend a lot of time implementing automation steps for a process that shouldn’t be that way in the first place.” We look at that process and we say, “Okay, how do we simplify it? How can we bring automation to bear, to make the process more straightforward, take less time, take less human effort.” Then, we usually at that point, sit down and actually design the automation solution around that. That’s one kind of problem and that process of workflow [analysis…] does involve what we call business process performers in each step. These are not the people who manage those areas. These are the people who are actually doing the work. We want to know what are they actually doing, we talk to them whenever we can, and we actually go [observe.] them because we can learn at least this much and probably more by watching what they’re doing and what they’re struggling with. That’s one side of it. The less well-described problems, those are the ones where nobody knows yet. This is something brand new. There, I think we tend to sit down and try to understand what these users are trying to accomplish, what problems they had in the past that this addresses, because so often, something that’s new is really some way connected to something old. We did this before. It didn’t really work or we have a gap here, there’s something that we’re not doing as well as we should or we’re not doing at all, and how do we get that better? A lot of it is about understanding what they’re looking for and I think the big element of that that’s key is breaking it down into manageable phases so we can deliver quickly and iterate quickly. The last thing you want to do is sit down and say, “Okay, we think we understand exactly what you need. Now, we’re going to go off for a year-and-a-half and build it.” That’s always a recipe for disaster. So, what we want to do is sit down and say, “Let’s take the most important crux of what you’re trying to get at here. Let’s implement something in a few weeks or a month. Then, let’s sit down and get it in your hands, get your feet back on it, and then figure out the next piece.” This doesn’t mean we can’t have a plan for like, “Here’s really roughly what we think the phases are going to be and how they’re going to be laid out. But let’s have these checkpoints along the way and let’s iterate based on what we actually are able to learn, what we actually to benefit from.” That’s what we found is the key to those kinds of new projects is the fast iteration cycle. Brian: We’ve talked a little bit about the MVP approach, which is about doing that minimal amount of work, which may or may not be working code, but you did a minimum amount of stuff to figure out whether or not it’s meeting a need that your customer has. You’re going through some type of observation process to fuel the first thing, the first asset or output that you create. It’s fueled by some kind of observation or research upfront so that when you go up to bat and take the swing, there’s a better chance of at least to base hit and not a strikeout or something. I fully support that type of effort instead of me going off, “We all have the data. We’ll send you back a kit and then you can put it together yourself. It will take a year, you’re going to dump everything into the data warehouse, and then you fall into the Gartner 85% of ‘Big Data Projects That Failed’ category, which nobody wants to be in that whole thing. I think that that’s really great you’re doing some of that. Earlier, you said you have a lot of different products and you said two to three of them are large. I’m just curious. Large by number of users? What justifies putting a dedicated product manager on it and what’s the extra love that is received because you’re one of those two or three? Is it they have a dedicated designer and dedicated engineers? It is more research time? Tell us about your big ones. Paul: I would say that the largest projects usually have someone who’s effectively an architect for the project, who may also be part of the development team. They usually have a development team. It’s usually several people. At least in an ideal world, three or four is probably typical for larger projects. Then there’s a project manager who is managing the project and also how that reports up into our overall program of initiatives for that organization. Usually, those projects, to get substantial research, are going to be priorities for the organization at some higher level. The last [piece] probably the most important piece is that there’s a product owner, who may or may not be the architect, in some cases the architect plus feedback from the stakeholders is enough to make it work, but most of the time, it’s usually somebody who is also the project owner or the product manager who’s really responsible for shaping the design of that product. For example, one of the big tools we’re working on has to do with increased virtualization that we’re rolling out within the Akamai network. This is a big project because it’s a company-wide initiative. We have somebody working on designing the interface and working to figure out how the interface to provisioning works within the context of all the processes we have here at Akamai. Another example, one of our key analysis or databases for analytics and for planning. There, the ownership is essentially a data team who is responsible for this database, the universe of this data, and roughly how it’s visualized. That team has responsibility for that database for its schema, how we got that data, where it comes from, its cleanliness, but also for the visualization aspect of it, and then it’s now also inheriting this ‘how do we use Tableau as part of that ecosystem?’ Just to give you some idea how these projects are organized and then what the roles are. Brian: Got it. Your large projects fall both into maybe a database that’s sitting behind Tableau as the interface and then you have another one, the server provisioning one, which sounds like a custom web-based application or something? Paul: That’s right. Brian: So then, for that one, to me that’s the decision support. The provisioning action would be the decision the human takes theoretically, upon some analytics or insight, that made them decide, “I need to push the button to deploy X servers in Y region or whatever it may be.” Is that decision support part of that custom product as well? Or is this a balance between two or three different Tableau instances that are behind different databases, and then you co-authored the provisioning tool and just do the action, you make the decision in that tool, but the insight about when and how and where to make the decision is not part of the tool? Or is that actually in that tool as well, where it’s like, “Hey we predict that you should do this,” or “Here are the stats. You come and make the decision on provisioning based on what’s in this tool.” How much is that wrapped together versus a series of different URLs you’re going to bounce through and piece together yourself with eyeball analysis? Paul: There’s some separation of systems and we’re actually moving into a more integrated direction. For example, a lot of us begin with a customer demand. Either we determine or the customer gives this information that helps us determine that they need capacity in a certain area. That drives the process but that also factors in to a lot of decision-making that goes on, right about exactly what gets deployed, where, and when. There’s elements of this that are integrated in a sense that the deployments that we’re planning to make to expand a network or to choose a network in some way, are inputs into this great big optimization model where you say, “Here’s what we know we think is coming, here’s what we know we think is going to happen, here’s the moves we’re planning to make when and where we will run out of capacity. I think we’re moving towards a more integrated feedback model for that where less of the work has to be sort of connect the dots by a human being and more to saying, “Okay, all the systems have this data and if they can exchange it with each other, then we have all the data in the places we need it.” Brian: You’re talking about this feedback cycle annually, then you might look back and say, “How well did we arrange for these optimizations? We planned for these predictive resource allocation or whatever it may be,” you look back and see how accurate that was by looking at the utilization rates or something? Paul: Exactly. Is there a customer demand we failed to meet? On the flip side, were there servers sitting around underutilized? Brian: Got it. When we talk about Akamai going out and deploying servers, are you talking about deploying physical hardware in a datacenter or are you just talking about provisioning up virtual servers on the cloud somewhere? I’m just curious because you guys are a network that sits on top of the internet. Does this involve lots of humans and you’re rolling out hardware and all that or are we really talking about virtual deployments? Paul: Some of each, but one of Akamai’s hallmarks, actually, is the breadth of the network. We have some servers in pretty remote locations. These are physical servers. These are places in some cases where there isn’t a lot of good cloud providers or anything like that. Brian: Johnny’s going to the Arctic to install some Dell servers. Paul: That’s right. I’ll tell you there’s a datacenter in Antarctica and it’s possible we have a server there. Brian: Someone’s got to go rewire it once in a while. Oh, we’re out of a storage. There’s still disk drives in that cloud up there. They might be flash, but they’re still a piece of hardware. Paul: One of the things that really differentiates Akamai is that we have this extensive edge network which really is pretty unparalleled to the industry. Brian: When there’s a report back then, do they look at the travel cost for Johnny going to the Arctic on an ice clipper or whatever it’s called, and then was it worth going there to deploy these servers? Paul: Sure. Increasingly, that is the kind of analysis that we’re doing. [and] we manage the network according to some of that. When there’s servers that are sitting somewhere and just not getting used or they’re there but they were extremely expensive to put there, then maybe that’s not a place to cover in the future. But in some cases, it makes sense to keep our coverage really good even if in one area where we’re sacrificing a little bit of cost to keep the coverage up over all and that might be worth it. Brian: Right. I’m curious. Now that you’ve been here awhile and through all these, do you have any stories or anecdotes about a particular user experience, a customer/internal user that found an approach that’s useful, or you’ve got some feedback or maybe it was negative, but you learned something not to do it again, or any type of anecdotes that you can think about that were insightful for you? Paul: Yes. We had a number of tools that we use for manipulating all the business data around what’s deployed in our network. I would say that I guess the best [anchor??] I had about them is that we’ve found there are tools that are very commonly used because of their flexibility. But if you actually look at the tool itself and you look at the complexity of the tool, it’s not that complex. It’s the default way of using things and people have used it continually because it has always been the way of using it, when in fact, there’s nothing particularly special about it. We’ve seen in certain circumstances where you give somebody a new tool that just works faster, it provides very similar interface, or you found some tweak to that workflow that really can save them tons and tons of time, and you just watch their eye pop out. They realized that you just probably saved them two hours a day. It’s interesting that that can happen in pockets and corners. There are many tools that have been built already to help with that but there are still plenty of opportunity for it. Brian: That’s great. That’s one of the things I think I love about being a designer. A lot of times, the big picture rewards like, “Was this product valuable or profitable?” There’s these lagging indicators which take a while and they don’t have the same hit as those small wins which were like, “I just saved this guy two hours a day doing a task that has nothing to do with his skill set. It’s just labor. He’s not using his brain. He just has to download these logs, put them in Excel, run a lookup, and then blah-blah-blah. And now it’s just bam.” I love that and that’s part of it for me, at least the joy of doing design work and stuff. I totally relate to the way you’re saying about helping someone. It is so much about helping people and you also feel like, “Man, I’m also helping the company because I’m helping this person use his brain to do much more important things than maybe he was doing with tool time, like downloading crap and uploading into a tool, sorting it, changing this, and blah-blah-blah.” Most of that is tool time. That’s not the, “Should we put more servers in Antarctica?” It’s not the thinking time and the valuable business time. Paul: It’s one of the very fulfilling aspects of the job like this where you’re building tools for internal stakeholders. In many software industries, you build product but your users might not be accessible for you or hardly at all. “I see that they’re right down the hall.” It’s a great fulfillment I think in building something that meets a person’s need and having that feedback and knowing that [did.] and having the satisfaction of that. Brian: Yeah, that’s awesome. This has been great. I’m curious. Do you have any closing advice for other product owners or data product leaders, analytics practitioners in your space, maybe about changing domain, you’re in a new domain? Any kind of insights looking back in this six months or however long that’s been that you’ve been there? Paul: I would say above all, my advice would be take the time to plan. Nobody ever thinks they have the time to design or to plan. To some extent, you just have to say, “If we don’t do this, [you know] the thing we build is not going to be worth nearly a much as the thing we could build.” You’re much better off figuring out the right design for something before you build it. Even when you think you don’t have the time, ask your managers and then your management chain for that space you need to get that pipeline started the right way because once you actually design things, you’re going to find that the number of people you’re helping and the degree at which you’re helping them is much greater. Brian: I can totally get behind that. That closing statement, I agree. First of all, you’re putting that anchor in place to do good things down the road. You’re probably reducing you’re technical debt and you’re maximizing your ability to change, especially when you’re doing small deployments. You’re probably going to need to change stuff, so a little bit of designing and planning upfront can do a lot for both the engineering part of it but also most importantly the customer experience getting that right. So, amen to that. Paul: Maybe the last part of that, just to add, is sometimes we take for granted the job we’ve been at for a long time. We actually take for granted that we think we know what everybody needs already. Sometimes, actually, it’s a blessing when you come to something brand new, because you’re not to assume you already know what that person across the hall really needs. You say, “I’m going to ask that person because I have no idea.” I would say these problems are the same everywhere. Whether you’re in a place, in a domain you’ve been for a while, there’s still going to be some aspect to that problem and you don’t understand what that person is living with. Pretend being the new guy for as long as you can. Go ask again and get to really understand what that person is experiencing because I know you’re going to able to meet the need much better. Brian: Yeah, I think that’s great advice. You don’t have that bias from your own knowledge about the domain or your assumptions there and that’s just a good design technique in general is being able to compartmentalize. We all come to the table with bias but if you can try to put that aside. For me, a lot of times it’s like leaving with new stuff with clients. It’s explain it to me like a five year old and I tell my clients sometimes this like, “What does it mean to deploy a server? What is he literally going to do and how does he know when to push the button to go do that,” and sometimes they look at you like, “What do you mean? You don’t know what a server is?” It’s like, “Well, I know what a server is, but literally I want to see every step it takes to know to go put one there. Is the guy going to walk out there with a box and rack it up? Or is this a virtual thing? Literally tell me what that’s like, that whole process.” Even though I know something about how that works, you’re going with that clean slate because you want to be open to those things you don’t know to ask about, and that the more you can come in with removing as much of that bias is possible, you might find those nuggets and stuff that just pop out to you that the customer doesn’t know to tell you about, but that they’re just going through their process. They’ll often ping you. You have these moments where you’ll learned something you didn’t go in there to ask about and sometimes it can be a really big thing like, “Wow. That’s really what the gap here is. It’s not this. It’s this another thing.” Having that really childlike innocence about the way you inquire can help enable that. Paul: Absolutely. Brian: Where can people find out about you? LinkedIn? Twitter? Are you out there in the internet? Paul: I’m on LinkedIn, for sure. I’m on Twitter. I’m on Facebook. Brian: Where are you on LinkedIn? What’s your Twitter handle? I’ll put the links in the notes, too. Paul: I think I’m @pjmattal everywhere. Brian: @pjmattal on Twitter. Okay, great. I’ll put your information up there. Thanks for coming on the show. It’s been great to hear about what you’re doing in Akamai and good luck as you guys charge forward. Paul: All right. Thanks.

My guest today is Carl Hoffman, the CEO of Basis Technology, and a specialist in text analytics. Carl founded Basis Technology in 1995, and in 1999, the company shipped its first products for website internationalization, enabling Lycos and Google to become the first search engines capable of cataloging the web in both Asian and European languages. In 2003, the company shipped its first Arabic analyzer and began development of a comprehensive text analytics platform. Today, Basis Technology is recognized as the leading provider of components for information retrieval, entity extraction, and entity resolution in many languages. Carl has been directly involved with the company’s activities in support of U.S. national security missions and works closely with analysts in the U.S. intelligence community. Many of you work all day in the world of analytics: numbers, charts, metrics, data visualization, etc. But, today we’re going to talk about one of the other ingredients in designing good data products: text! As an amateur polyglot myself (I speak decent Portuguese, Spanish, and am attempting to learn Polish), I really enjoyed this discussion with Carl. If you are interested in languages, text analytics, search interfaces, entity resolution, and are curious to learn what any of this has to do with offline events such as the Boston Marathon Bombing, you’re going to enjoy my chat with Carl. We covered: How text analytics software is used by Border patrol agencies and its limitations. The role of humans in the loop, even with good text analytics in play What actually happened in the case of the Boston Marathon Bombing? Carl’s article“Exact Match” Isn’t Just Stupid. It’s Deadly. The 2 lessons Carl has learned regarding working with native tongue source material. Why Carl encourages Unicode Compliance when working with text, why having a global perspective is important, and how Carl actually implements this at his company Carl’s parting words on why hybrid architectures are a core foundation to building better data products involving text analytics Resources and Links: Basis Technology Carl’s article: “Exact Match” isn’t Just Stupid. It’s Deadly. Carl Hoffman on LinkedIn Quotes from Today’s Episode “One of the practices that I’ve always liked is actually getting people that aren’t like you, that don’t think like you, in order to intentionally tease out what you don’t know. You know that you’re not going to look at the problem the same way they do…” — Brian O’Neill “Bias is incredibly important in any system that tries to respond to human behavior. We have our own innate cultural biases that we’re sometimes not even aware of. As you [Brian] point out, it’s impossible to separate human language from the underlying culture and, in some cases, geography and the lifestyle of the people who speak that language…” — Carl Hoffman “What I can tell you is that context and nuance are equally important in both spoken and written human communication…Capturing all of the context means that you can do a much better job of the analytics.” — Carl Hoffman “It’s sad when you have these gaps like what happened in this border crossing case where a name spelling is responsible for not flagging down [the right] people. I mean, we put people on the moon and we get something like a name spelling [entity resolution] wrong. It’s shocking in a way.” — Brian O’Neill “We live in a world which is constantly shades of gray and the challenge is getting as close to yes or no as we can.”– Carl Hoffman Episode Transcript Brian: Hey everyone, it’s Brian here and we have a special edition of Experiencing Data today. Today, we are going to be talking to Carl Hoffman who’s the CEO of Basis Technology. Carl is not necessarily a traditional what I would call Data Product Manager or someone working in the field of creating custom decision support tools. He is an expert in text analytics and specifically Basis Technology focuses on entity resolution and resolving entities across different languages. If your product, or service, or your software tool that you’re using is going to be dealing with inputs and outputs or search with multiple languages, I think your going to find my chat with Carl really informative. Without further ado here’s my chat Mr. Carl Hoffman. All right. Welcome back to Experiencing Data. Today, I’m happy to have Carl Hoffman on the line, the CEO of Basis Technology, based out of Cambridge, Massachusetts. How’s it going, Carl? Carl: Great. Good to talk to you, Brian. Brian: Yeah, me too. I’m excited. This episode’s a little but different. Basis Tech primarily focuses on providing text analytics more as a service as opposed to a data product. There are obviously some user experience ramifications on the downstream side of companies, software, and services that are leveraging some of your technology. Can you tell people a little bit about the technology of Basis and what you guys do? Carl: There are many companies who are in the business of extracting actionable information from large amounts of dirty, unstructured data and we are one of them. But what makes us unique is our ability to extract what we believe is one of the most difficult forms of big data, which is text in many different languages from a wide range of sources. You mentioned text analytics as a service, which is a big part of our business, but we actually provide text analytics in almost every conceivable form. As a service, as an on-prem cloud offering, as a conventional enterprise software, and also as the data fuel to power your in-house text analytics. There’s another half of our business as well which is focused specifically on one of the most important sources of data, which is what we call digital forensics or cyber forensics. That’s the challenge of getting data off of digital media that maybe either still in use or dead. Brian: Talk to me about dead. Can you go unpack that a little bit? Carl: Yes. Dead basically means powered off or disabled. The primary application there is for corporate investigators or for law enforcement who are investigating captured devices or digital media. Brian: Got it. Just to help people understand some of the use cases that someone would be leveraging some of the capabilities of your platforms, especially the stuff around entity resolution, can you talk a little bit about like my understanding, for example, one use case for your software is obviously border crossings, where your information, your name is going to be looked up to make sure that you should be crossing whatever particular border that you’re at. Can you talk to us a little bit about what’s happening there and what’s going on behind the scenes with your software? Like what is that agent doing and what’s happening behind the scenes? What kind of value are you providing to the government at that instance? Carl: Border crossings or the software used by border control authorities is a very important application of our software. From a data representational challenge, it’s actually not that difficult because for the most part, border authorities work with linear databases of known individuals or partially known individuals and queries. Queries may be the form manually typed by an officer or maybe scan of a passport. The complexity comes in when a match must be scored, where a decision must be rendered as to whether a particular query or a particular passport scan matches any of the names present on a watch list. Those watch list can be in many different formats. They can come from many different sources. Our software excels at performing that match at very high accuracy, regardless of the nature of the query and regardless of the source of the underlying watch list. Brian: I assume those watch lists may vary in the level of detail around for example, aliases, spelling, which alphabet they were being printed in. Part of the value of what your services is doing is helping to say, “At the end of the day, entity number seven on the list is one human being who may have many ways of being represented with words on a page or a screen,” so the goal obviously is to make sure that you have the full story of that one individual. Am I correct that you may get that in various formats and different levels of detail? And part of what your system is doing is actually trying to match up that person or give it what you say a non-binary response but a match score or something that’s more of a gray response that says, “This person may also be this person.” Can you compact that a little bit for us? Carl: Your remarks are exactly correct. First, what you said about gray is very important. These decisions are rarely 100% yes or no. We live in a world which is constantly shades of gray and the challenge is getting us close to yes or no as we can. But the quality of the data in watch lists can vary pretty wildly, based on the prominence and the number of sources. The US border authorities must compile information from many different sources, from UN, from Treasury Department, from National Counterterrorism Center, from various states, and so on. The amount of detail and the degree of our certainty regarding that data can vary from name to name. Brian: We talked about this when we first were chatting about this episode. Am I correct when I think about one of the overall values you’re doing is obviously we’re offloading some of the labor of doing this kind of entity resolution or analysis onto software and then picking up the last mile with human, to say, “Hey, are these recommendations correct? Maybe I’ll go in and do some manual labor.” Is that how you see it, that we do some of the initial grunt work and you present an almost finished story, and then the human comes in and needs to really provide that final decision at the endpoint? Are we doing enough of the help with the software? At what point should we say, “That’s no longer a software job to give you a better score about this person. We think that really requires a human analysis at this point.” Is there a way to evaluate or is that what you think about like, “Hey, we don’t want to go past up that point. We want to stop here because the technology is not good enough or the data coming in will never be accurate enough and we don’t want to go past that point.” I don’t know if that makes sense. Carl: It does makes sense. I can’t speak for all countries but I can say that in the US, the decision to deny an individual entry or certainly the decision to apprehend an individual is always made by a human. We designed our software to assume a human in the loop for the most critical decisions. Our software is designed to maximize the value of the information that is presented to the human so that nothing is overlooked. Really, the two biggest threats to our national security are one, having very valuable information overlooked, which is exactly what happened in the case of the Boston Marathon bombing. We had a great deal of information about Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, yet that information was overlooked because the search engines failed to surface it in response to queries by a number of officials. And secondly, detaining or apprehending innocent individuals, which hurts our security as much as allowing dangerous individuals to pass. Brian: This has been in the news somewhat but talk about the “glitch” and what happened in that Boston Marathon bombing in terms of maybe some of these tools and what might have happened or not what might have happened, but what you understand was going on there such that there was a gap in this information. Carl: I am always very suspicious when anyone uses the word ‘glitch’ with regard to any type of digital equipment because if that equipment is executing its algorithm as it has been programmed to do, then you will get identical results for identical inputs. In this case, the software that was in use at the time by US Customs and Border Protection was executing a very naive name-matching algorithm, which failed to match two different variant spellings of the name Tsarnaev. If you look at the two variations for any human, it would seem almost obvious that the two variations are related and are in fact connected to the same name that’s natively written in Cyrillic. What really happened was a failure on the part of the architects of that name mentioning system to innovate by employing the latest technology in name-matching, which is what my company provides. In the aftermath of that disaster, our software was integrated into the border control workflow, first with the goal of redacting false-positives, and then later with the secondary goal of identifying false negatives. We’ve been very successful on both of those challenges. Brian: What were the two variants? Are you talking about the fact that one was spelled in Cyrillic and one was spelled in a Latin alphabet? They didn’t bring back data point A and B because they look like separate individuals? What was it, a transliteration? Carl: They were two different transliterations of the name Tsarnaev. In one instance, the final letters in the names are spelled -naev and the second instance it’s spelled -nayev. The presence or absence of that letter y was the only difference between the two. That’s a relatively simple case but there are many similar stories for more complex names. For instance, the 2009 Christmas bomber who successfully boarded a Northwest Delta flight with a bomb in his underwear, again because of a failure to match two different transliterations of his name. But in his case, his name is Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab. There was much more opportunity for divergent transliterations. Brian: On this kind of topic, you wrote an interesting article called “Exact Match” Isn’t Just Stupid. It’s Deadly. You’ve talked a little bit about this particular example with the Boston Marathon bombing. You mentioned that they’re thinking globally about building a product out. Can you talk to us a little about what it means to think globally? Carl: Sure. Thinking globally is really a mindset and an architectural philosophy in which systems are built to accommodate multiple languages and cultures. This is an issue not just with the spelling of names but with support for multiple writing systems, different ways of rendering and formatting personal names, different ways of rendering, formatting, and parsing postal addresses, telephone numbers, dates, times, and so on. The format of a questionnaire in Japanese is quite different from the format of a questionnaire in English. If you will get any complex global software product, there’s a great deal of work that must be done to accommodate the needs of a worldwide user base. Brian: Sure and you’re a big fan of Unicode-compliant software, am I correct? Carl: Yes. Building Unicode compliance is equivalent to building a solid stable foundation for an office tower. It only gets you to the ground floor, but without it, the rest of the tower starts to lean like the one that’s happening in San Francisco right now. Brian: I haven’t heard about that. Carl: There’s a whole tower that’s tipping over. You should read it. It’s a great story. Brian: Foundation’s not so solid. Carl: Big lawsuit’s going on right now. Brian: Not the place you want to have a sagging tower either. Carl: Not the place but frankly, it’s really quite comparable because I’ve seen some large systems that will go unnamed, where there’s legacy technology and people are unaware perhaps why it’s so important to move from Python version 2 to Python version 3. One of the key differences is Unicode compliance. So if I hear about a large-scale enterprise system that’s based on Python version 2, I’m immediately suspicious that it’s going to be suitable for a global audience. Brian: I think about, from an experience standpoint, inputs, when you’re providing inputs into forms and understanding what people are typing in. If it’s a query form, obviously giving people back what they wanted and not necessarily what they typed in. We all take for granted things like this spelling correction, and not just the spelling correction, but in Google when you type in something, it sometimes give you something that’s beyond a spelling thing, “Did you mean X, Y, and Z?” I would think that being in the form about what people are typing into your form fields and mining your query logs, this is something I do sometimes with clients when they’re trying to learn something. I actually just read an article today about dell.com and the top query term on dell.com is ‘Google,’ which is a very interesting thing. I would be curious to know why people are typing that in. Is it really like people are actually trying to access Google or are they trying to get some information? But the point is to understand the input side and to try to return some kind of logical output. Whether it’s text analytics that’s providing that or it’s name-matching, it’s being aware of that and it’s sad when you have these gaps like what happened in this border crossing case where a name spelling is responsible for not flagging down these people. I mean, we put people on the moon and we get something like a name spelling wrong. It’s shocking in a way. I guess for those who are working in tech, we can understand how it might happen, but it’s scary that that’s still going on today. You’ve probably seen many other. Are you able to talk about it? Obviously, you have some in the intelligence field and probably government where you can’t talk about some of your clients, but are there other examples of learning that’s happened that, even if it’s not necessarily entity resolution where you’ve put dots together with some of your platform? Carl: I’ll say the biggest lesson that I’ve learned from nearly two decades of working on government applications involving multi-lingual data is the importance of retaining as much of the information in its native form as possible. For example, there is a very large division of the CIA which is focused on collecting open source intelligence in the form of newspapers, magazines, the digital equivalent of those, radio broadcast, TV broadcasts and so one. It’s a unit which used to be known as the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, going back to Word War II time, and today it’s called the Open Source Enterprise. They have a very large collection apparatus and they produce some extremely high quality products which are summaries and translations from sources in other languages. In their workflow, previously they would collect information, say in Chinese or in Russian, and then do a translation or summary into English, but then would discard the original or the original would be hidden from their enterprise architecture for query purposes. I believe that is no longer the case, but retaining the pre-translation original, whether it’s open source, closed source, commercial, enterprise information, government-related information, is really very important. That’s one lesson. The other lesson is appreciating the limits of machine translation. We’re increasingly seeing machine translation integrated into all kinds of information systems, but there needs to be a very sober appreciation of what is and what is not achievable and scalable by employing machine translation in your architecture. Brian: Can you talk at all about the translation? We have so much power now with NLP and what’s possible with the technology today. As I understand it, when we talk about translation, we’re talking about documents and things that are in written word that are being translated from one language to another. But in terms of spoken word, and we’re communicating right now, I’m going to ask you two questions. What do you know about NLP and what do you know about NLP? The first one I had a little bit of attitude which assumes that you don’t know too much about it, and the second one, I was treating you as an expert. When this gets translated into text, it loses that context. Where are we with that ability to look at the context, the tone, the sentiment that’s behind that? I would imagine that’s partly why you’re talking about saving the original source. It might provide some context like, “What are the headlines were in the paper?” and, “Which paper wrote it?” and, “Is there a bias with that paper?” whatever, having some context of the full article that that report came from can provide additional context. Humans are probably better at doing some of that initial eyeball analysis or having some idea of historically where this article’s coming from such that they can put it in some context as opposed to just seeing the words in a native language on a computer screen. Can you talk a little bit about that or where we are with that? And am I incorrect that we’re not able to look at that sentiment? I don’t even know how that would translate necessarily unless you had a playing back of a recording of someone saying the words. You have translation on top of the sentiment. Now you’ve got two factors of difficulty right there and getting it accurate. Carl: My knowledge of voice and speech analysis is very naive. I do know there’s an area of huge investment and the technology is progressing very rapidly. I suspect that voice models are already being built that can distinguish between the two different intonations you used in asking that question and are able to match those against knowledge bases separately. What I can tell you is that context and nuance are equally important in both spoken and written human communication. My knowledge is stronger when it comes to its written form. Capturing all of the context means that you can do a much better job of the analytics. That’s why, say, when we’re analyzing a document, we’re looking not only the individual word but the sentence, the paragraph, where does the text appear? Is it in the body? Is it in a heading? Is it in a caption? Is it in a footnote? Or if we’re looking at, say, human-typed input—I think this is where your audience would care if you’re designing forms or search boxes—there’s a lot that can be determined in terms of how the input is typed. Again, especially when you’re thinking globally. We’re familiar with typing English and typing queries or completing forms with the letters A through Z and the numbers 0 through 9, but the fastest-growing new orthography today is emoticons and emoji offer a lot of very valuable information about the mindset of the author. Say that we look at Chinese or Japanese, which are basically written with thousand-year-old emoji, where an individual must type a sequence of keys in order to create each of the Kanji or Hanzu that appears. There’s a great deal of information we can capture. For instance, if I’m typing a form in Japanese, saying I’m filling out my last name, and then my last name is Tanaka. Well, I’m going to type phonetically some characters that represent Tanaka, either in Latin letters or one of the Japanese phonetic writing systems, then I’m going to pick from a menu or the system is going to automatically pick for me the Japanese characters that represent Tanaka. But any really capable input system is going to keep both whatever I typed phonetically and the Kanji that I selected because both of those have value and the association between the two is not always obvious. There are similar ways of capturing context and meaning in other writing systems. For instance, let’s say I’m typing Arabic not in Arabic script but I’m typing with Roman letters. How I translate from those Roman letters into the Arabic alphabet may vary, depending upon if I’m using Gulf Arabic, or Levantine Arabic, or Cairene Arabic, and say the IP address of the person doing the typing may factor into how I do that transformation and how I interpret those letters. There’s examples for many other writing systems other than the Latin alphabet. Brian: I meant to ask you. Do you speak any other languages or do you study any other languages? Carl: I studied Japanese for a few years in high school. That’s really what got me into using computers to facilitate language understanding. I just never had the ability to really quickly memorize all of the Japanese characters, the radical components, and the variant pronunciations. After spending countless hours combing through paper dictionaries, I got very interested in building electronic dictionaries. My interest in electronic dictionaries eventually led to search engines and to lexicons, algorithms powered by lexicons, and then ultimately to machine learning and deep learning. Brian: I’m curious. I assume you need to employ either a linguist or at least people that speak multiple languages. One concern with advanced analytics right now and especially anything with prediction, is bias. I speak a couple of different languages and I think one of the coolest things about learning another language is seeing the world through another context. Right now, I’m learning Polish and there’s the concept of case and it doesn’t just come down to learning the prefixes and suffixes that are added to words. Effectively, that’s what the output is but it’s even understanding the nuance of when you would use that and what you’re trying to convey, and then when you relay it back to your own language, we don’t even have an equivalent between this. We would never divide this verb into two different sentiments. So you start to learn what you don’t even know to think about. I guess what I’m asking here is how do you capture those things? Say, in our case where I assume you’re an American and I am to, so we have our English that we grew up with and our context for that. How do you avoid bias? Do you think about bias? How do you build these systems in terms of approaching it from a single language? Ultimately, this code is probably written in English, I assume. Not to say that the code would be written in a different language but just the approach when you’re thinking about all these systems that have to do with language, where does that come in having integrating other people that speaks other languages? Can you talk about that a little bit? Carl: Bias is incredibly important in any system that tries to respond to human behavior. We have our own innate cultural biases that we’re sometimes not even aware of. As you point out, it’s impossible to separate human language from the underlying culture and, in some cases, geography and the lifestyle of the people who speak that language. Yes, this is something that we think about. I disagree with your remark about code being written in English. The most important pieces of code today are the frameworks for implementing various machine learning and deep learning architectures. These architectures for the most part are language or domain-agnostic. The language bias tends to creep in as an artifact of the data that we collect. If I were to, say, harvest a million pages randomly on the internet, a very large percentage of those pages would be in English, out of proportion to the proportion of the population of the planet who speaks English, just because English is common language for commerce, science, and so on. The bias comes in from the data or it comes in from the mindset of the architect, who may do something as simple-minded as allocating only eight bits per character or deciding that Python version 2 is an acceptable development platform. Brian: Sure. I should say, I wasn’t so much speaking about the script, the code, as much as I was thinking more about the humans behind it, their background, and their language that they speak, or these kinds of choices that you’re talking about because they’re informed by that person’s perspective. But thank you for clarifying. Carl: I agree with that observation as well. You’re certainly right. Brian: Do you have a way? You’re experts in this area and you’re obviously heavily invested in this area. Are there things that you have to do to prevent that bias, in terms of like, “We know what we don’t know about it, or we know enough about it but we don’t know if about, so we have a checklist or we have something that we go through to make sure that we’re checking ourselves to avoid these things”? Or is it more in the data collection phase that you’re worried about more so than the code or whatever that’s actually going to be taking the data and generating the software value at the other end? Is it more on the collection side that you’re thinking about? How do you prevent it? How do you check yourself or tell a client or customer, “Here’s how we’ve tried to make sure that the quality of what we’re giving you is good. We did A, B, C, and D.” Maybe I’m making a bigger issue out of this than it is. I’m not sure. Carl: No, it is a big issue. The best way to minimize that cultural bias is by building global teams. That’s something that we’ve done from the very beginning days of our company. We have a company in which collectively the team speaks over 20 languages, originate from many different countries around the world, and we do business in native countries around the world. That’s just been an absolute necessity because we produce products that are proficient in 40 different human languages. If you’re a large enterprise, more than 500 people, and you’re targeting markets globally, then you need to build a global team. That applies to all the different parts of the organization, including the executive team. It’s rare that you will see individuals who are, say, American culture with no meaningful international experience being successful in any kind of global expansion. Brian: That’s pretty awesome that you have that many languages going in the staff that you have working at the company. That’s cool and I think it does provide a different perspective on it. We talk about it even in the design firm. Sometimes, early managers in the design will want to go hire a lot of people that look like they do. Not necessarily physically but in terms of skill set. One of the practices that I’ve always liked is actually getting people that aren’t like you, that don’t think like you, in order to intentionally tease out what you don’t know, you know that you’re not going to look at the problem the same way they are, and you don’t necessarily know what the output is, but you can learn that there’s other perspectives to have, so too many like-minded individuals doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s better. I think that’s cool. Can you talk to me a little bit about one of the fun little nuggets that stuck in my head and I think you’ve attributed to somebody else, but was the word about getting insights from medium data. Can you talk to us about that? Carl: Sure. I should first start by crediting the individual who planted that idea in my head, which is Dr. Catherine Havasi of the MIT Media Lab, who’s also a cofounder of a company called Luminoso, which is a partner of ours. They do common sense understanding. The challenge with building truly capable text analytics from large amounts of unstructured text is obtaining sufficient volume. If you are a company on the scale of Facebook or Google, you have access to truly enormous amount of text. I can’t quantify it in petabytes or exabytes, but it is a scale that is much greater than the typical global enterprise or Fortune 2000 company, who themselves may have very massive data lakes. But still, those data lakes are probably three to five orders of magnitudes smaller than what Google or Facebook may have under their control. That intermediate-sized data, which is sloppily referred to as big data, we think of it as medium data. We think about the challenge of allowing companies with medium data assets to obtain big data quality results, or business intelligence that’s comparable to something that Google or Facebook might be able to obtain. We do that by building models that are hybrid, that combine knowledge graphs or semantic graphs, derived from very large open sources with the information that they can extract from their proprietary data lakes, and using the open sources and the models that we build as amplifiers for their own data. Brian: I believe when we were talking, you have mentioned a couple of companies that are building products on top of you. Difio, I think, was one, and Tamr, and Luminoso. So is that related to what these companies are doing? Carl: Yes, it absolutely is related. Luminoso, in particular, is using this process of synthesizing results from their customers, proprietary data with their own models. The Luminoso team grew out of the team at MIT that built something called Constant Net, which is a very large net of graph in multiple languages. But actually, Difio as well is also using this approach of federating both open and closed source repositories by integrating a large number of connectors into their architecture. They have access to web content. They have access to various social media fire hoses. They have access to proprietary data feeds from financial news providers. But then, they fuse that with internal sources of information that may come from sources like SharePoint, or Dropbox, or Google Drive, or OneDrive, your local file servers, and then give you a single view into all of this data. Brian: Awesome. I don’t want to keep you too long. This has been super informational for me, learning about your space that you’re in. Can you tell us any closing thoughts, advice for product managers, analytics practitioners? We talked a little about obviously thinking globally and some of those areas. Any other closing thoughts about delivering good experiences, leveraging text analytics, other things to watch out for? Any general thoughts? Carl: Sure. I’ll close with a few thoughts. One is repeating what I’ve said before about Unicode compliance. The fact that I again have to state that is somewhat depressing yet it’s still isn’t taken as an absolute requirement, which is today, and yet continues to be overlooked. Secondly, just thinking globally, anything that you’re building, you got to think about a global audience. I’ll share with you an anecdote. My company gives a lot of business to Eventbrite, who I would expect by now would have a fully globalized platform, but it turns out their utility for sending an email to everybody who signed-up for an event doesn’t work in Japanese. I found that out the hard way when I needed to send an email to everybody that was signed up for our conference in Tokyo. That was very disturbing and I’m not afraid to say that live on a podcast. They need to fix it. You really don’t want customers finding out about that during a time of high stress and high pressure, and there’s just no excuse for that. Then my third point with regard to natural language understanding. This is a really incredibly exciting time to be involved with natural language, with human language because the technology is changing so rapidly and the space of what is achievable is expanding so rapidly. My final point of advice is that hybrid architectures have been the best and continue to be the best. There’s a real temptation to say, “Just grow all of my text into a deep neural net and magic is going to happen.” That can be true if you have sufficiently large amounts of data, but most people don’t. Therefore, you’re going to get better results by using hybrids of algorithmic simpler machine learning architectures together with deep neural nets. Brian: That last tip, can you take that down one more notch? I assume you’re talking about a level of quality on the tail-end of the technology implementation, there’s going to be some higher quality output. Can you translate what a hybrid architecture means in terms of a better product at the other end? What would be an example of that? Carl: Sure. It’s hard to do without getting too technical, but I’ll try and I’ll try to use some examples in English. I think the traditional way of approaching deep nets has very much been take a very simple, potentially deep and recursive neural network architecture and just throw data at it, especially images or audio waveforms. I throw my images in and I want to classify which ones were taken outdoors and which ones were taken indoors with no traditional signal processing or image processing added before or after. In the image domain, my understanding is that, that kind of purist approach is delivered the best results and that’s what I’ve heard. I don’t have first-hand information about that. However, when it comes to human language in its written form, there’s a great deal of traditional processing of that text that boosts the effectiveness of the deep learning. That falls into a number of layers that I won’t go into, but to just give you one example, let’s talk about what we called Orthography. The English language is relatively simple and that the orthography is generally quite simple. We’ve got the letters A through Z, an uppercase and lowercase, and that’s about it. But if you look inside, say a PDF of English text, you’ll sometimes encounter things like ligatures, like a lowercase F followed by a lowercase I, or two lowercase Fs together, will be replaced with single glyph to make it look good in that particular typeface. If I think those glyphs and I just throw them in with all the rest of my text, that actually complicates the job of the deep learning. If I take that FI ligature and convert it back to separate F followed by I, or the FF ligature and convert it back to FF, my deep learning doesn’t have to figure out what those ligatures are about. Now that seems pretty obscure in English but in other writing systems, especially Arabic, for instance, in which there’s an enormous number of ligatures, or Korean or languages that have diacritical marks, processing those diacritical marks, those ligatures, those orthographic variations using conventional means will make your deep learning run much faster and give you better results with less data. That’s just one example but there’s a whole range or other text-processing steps using algorithms that have been developed over many years, that simply makes the deep learning work better and that results in what we call a hybrid architecture. Brian: So it sounds like taking, as opposed to throw it all in a pot and stir, there’s the, “Well, maybe I’m going to cut the carrots neatly into the right size and then throw them in the soup.” Carl: Exactly. Brian: You’re kind of helping the system do a better job at its work. Carl: That’s right and it’s really about thinking about your data and understanding something about it before you throw it into the big brain. Brian: Exactly. Cool. Where can people follow you? I’ll put a link up to the Basis in the show notes but are you on Twitter or LinkedIn somewhere? Where can people find you? Carl: LinkedIn tends to be my preferred social network. I just was never really good at summarizing complex thoughts into 140 characters, so that’s the best place to connect with me. Basically, we’ll tell you all about Basis Technology and rosette.com is our text analytics platform, which is free for anybody to explore, and to the best of my knowledge, it is the most capable text analytics platform with the largest number of languages that you will find anywhere on the public internet. Brian: All right, I will definitely put those up in the show notes. This has been fantastic, I’ve learned a ton, and thanks for coming on Experiencing Data. Carl: Great talking with you, Brian. Brian: All right. Cheers. Carl: Cheers.

We’re back with a special music-related analytics episode! Following Next Big Sound’s acquisition by Pandora, Julien Benatar moved from engineering into product management and is now responsible for the company’s analytics applications in the Creator Tools division. He and his team of engineers, data scientists and designers provide insights on how artists are performing on Pandora and how they can effectively grow their audience. This was a particularly fun interview for me since I have music playing on Pandora and occasionally use Next Big Sound’s analytics myself. Julien and I discussed: How Julien’s team accounts for designing for a huge range of customers (artists) that have wildly different popularity, song plays, and followers How the service generates benchmark values in order to make analytics more useful to artists How email notifications can be useful or counter-productive in analytics services How Julien thinks about the Data Pyramid when building out their platform Having a “North Star” and driving analytics toward customer action The types of predictive analytics Next Big Sound is doing Resources and Links: Julien Benatar on Twitter Next Big Sound website Next Big Sound blog The Data Pyramid model Quotes from Julien Benatar "I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data." "People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions." "One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks" “The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists.” “I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today.” Episode Transcript Brian: I’m really excited today for this episode. We have Julien Benatar on the show and he’s from a company that I’m sure a lot of people here know. You probably have had headphones on at your desk, at home, or wherever you are listening to Pandora for music. Julien , correct me if I’m wrong, you were the product manager for artist tools and insights at Next Big Sound, which is a type of data product that provides information on music listening stats to, I assume, artists’ labels as well to help them understand where their fans are and social media engagement. I love this topic. I’m also a musician, I have a profile on Next Big Sound and I feel music’s a fun way to talk about analytics and design as well because everybody can relate to the content and the domain. Welcome to the show. Did I get all that correct? Julien: Yeah, it was perfect. Brian: Cool. Tell us a little about your background. You’re from France originally? Julien: Yes, exactly. I grew up next to Paris, in Versailles more specifically, and moved to New York in 2014 to join Next Big Sound. Brian: Cool, nice. You’ve been there for about four years, something like that. You have a software engineering background and then now you’re on the product side, is that right? Julien: Exactly yes. I joined the company back when we were a startup. Software engineering was perfect, there was so much to do. To our move to Pandora, I moved to a product manager role around a year ago. Brian: Next Big Sound was independent and then they were acquired by Pandora. I assume there is good stuff about your data. Why did Pandora acquire you and how did they see you guys improving their service? Julien: We got acquired in 2015. The thing is, Next Big Sound was already really involved in the music industry. We already had clients like the three major labels and a lot of artists were using us to get access to their social data. I think it was a very natural move for Pandora as they wanted to get closer to creators and provide better analytics tools. Brian: For people that aren’t on the service, I always like to know who are the actual end users, the people logging in, not necessarily the management, but who sits down and what are some of the things that they would do? Who would log in to Next Big Sound and why? Julien: Honestly, it’s really anyone having any involvement into the music industry, so that can be an artist, obviously, try looking to try their socials and their audience on Pandora. But you can also be a booker trying to book artists in their town. We have a product that can really be used by many different user personas. But our core right now is really artists and labels, having contents on Pandora and trying to tell them the most compelling story about what they’re doing on the platform. Brian: When you think about designs, it’s hard to design and we talk about this on the mailing list sometimes but it’s really hard to design one great thing that’s perfect for everybody so usually you have to make some choices. Do you guys favor the artist, or the label, or as you call them,the bookers or whom I know as presenters,in the performing arts industry? Do you have a sweet spot, like you favor one of those in terms of experience? Julien: I think it’s something we’re moving towards, but it hasn’t always been this way. Like I told you, we used to be a startup or grow us to make a product that could work for as many people as possible. What is funny is we used to have an entity on Next Big Sound called Next Big Book where we used to provide the same type of service for the book industry. If anything, it’s been great to join Pandora because then we could really refocus on creators and it really allowed us to, I believe, create much better and more targeted analytics tools to really fulfill needs for specific people like artists and labels. Brian: I would assume individual artists are your biggest audience or is it really heavily used by the labels or who tends to... Julien: I think it’s pretty much the same honestly. I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today. I think that everyone has reasons to look at their dashboards and especially for a platform like Pandora with millions of users every month. Our goal is really just telling them a story about what does it mean to be spinning on the platform and the opportunities it opens. Brian: You talked about opportunities, do you have any stories about a particular artist or a label that may have learned something from your data and maybe they wrote to you or you found out like in an interview how they reacted like, “Hey, we changed our tool routing,” or, “Hey, we decided to focus on this area instead of that area.” Do you know anything about how it’s been put into use in the wild? Julien: Yeah, it’s used for so many different reasons. For the people who don’t use Pandora, something I really like about the platform is it’s really about quality. As you use Pandora, you have the opportunity to thumb up or thumb down songs and as you do, you’re going to get recommended more songs like the ones you like. It’s really about making sure that you get the best songs at all times. The reality then is that for artists, their top songs on Pandora can be pretty different than their top songs on other platforms because sometimes their friends are going to be just reacting more to some part of their catalog than another one. I’ve heard many times of artists changing their playlists in looking at which songs where their fans thumbing up the most on Pandora. Brian: Could you go through that again? How would they adjust their playlist? Julien: Usually, people use Pandora as a radio service. While we already have internet today, most people are listening to the radio because they’re usually are very targeted and it just works really well. The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists. We tell them, “This are your most thumbed songs on Pandora. These are the songs that people engage with the most on the platform.” Looking at this data, you can actually inform them songs that they believe they should be playing more on the store. Brian: I see. A lot of it has to do with the favoriting aspect to give them idea what’s resonating with their audiences. Julien: Qualitative feedback, yes. Brian: Got it. Actually, it’s funny you mentioned the qualitative feedback. In preparation for this, I was reading an article that you guys put out back in March about a new feature called weekly performance insights, which is really cool and this actually reminds me of something that I talked about in the Designing for Analytics mailing list, which is the act of providing qualitative guides with your analytics. A lot of times they analyze for turnout quantitative data and whenever there’s an opportunity to put stuff into context or provide qualifiers, I think that’s a really good thing and you guys look like you’ve have done some really nice things here. I’ll paraphrase it and then you can jump in and maybe give us some backstory on it. One of the things that I think is really cool is there're concepts of normalcy in here so that, if I’m an artist and I look at my numbers, I have an idea. For your Twitter mentions, for example, you say, “For artists with 26,000 followers, we expect you to get around 44 mentions.” When you show me that I have 146 mentions, I can tell that I’m substantially higher than what my social group would be. I think that’s a really fantastic concept that people not in music could try to apply as well which is, are there normalcy bans where you’d want to sit? Is there some other type of group, maybe, an industry, or apparent group, or another business unit, whatever it may be to provide some context for what these out of the blue numbers mean that don’t have any context? How did you guys come up with that and can you tell us a bit about the design process of going from maybe just showing, “You’re at 826 apples,” as compared to what? How did you move from just a number into this these kind of logical groupings where you provide the comparisons? Julien: I think what’s really fascinating is, we really live in an age of data. As an artist, you need to be on social media for the most part. There still a lot of artists I listen to but just decide not to. It’s part of things but at the same time, real big success in the music industry didn’t change. It’s still being on the Billboard chart, getting a Grammy and all these things. But as we see this, we have millions of artists looking at their data every day and just are not able to understand, like is it good or is it not good. Everyone starts at zero. We have a strong belief that data can only be useful when put in context. Looking at the number on its own can give you a sense of how things are doing but that can also be dismissive. An example is, a very common way to look at data is to look at a number and look at the percent changing comparison to the previous week. You’ve got a bunch of tables and you look at, am I growing or am I not growing. The reality is it’s actually impossible to always have a positive percent change. There’s no artist in the world that always does better week by week. Even Beyonce, I can assure you that the week she released Lemonade, she had more engagement on Twitter than the week after. With that in mind, we really try to give a way for artists to understand how are they doing for who they are and where they are currently in their career. Next Big Sound started in 2009. One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks. For an artist, like the example you said, for instance an artist with a thousand Twitter mentions in a week, is it good or bad in comparison to their audience size? This feature comes because that’s just the question we’re asked. Artists want to know is it any good? What does this number actually mean for me? That’s why we really wanted to, in some ways, get out of being a content aggregator platform and really be a data analytics platform. How can we actually give information that can help artist make better decisions? Brian: I remember the first time I got what I would call an anomaly detection email from your service and it was about some spike in YouTube views or something like that. I thought it’s fantastic in two reasons. First of all, you identify an anomalous change and I think in this case it’s a positive anomalous change. That tells me that I should log in the tool. Secondly, you proactively delivered that to me. On the Designing for Analytics mailing list, we talk about is that user experience does not necessarily live inside your web browser interface or your hard client or whatever you’re using to show your analytics. Email and notifications are a big part of that. Can you tell me about how you guys also arrived at when you pushed these things out and maybe talk about this little anomaly detection service that you have? Julien: It all started when we got acquired by Pandora. We decided to just invite a bunch of users and just talk to them, understand how to use our product and what did they think about it. We had artists, managers, and label people come over and we just talk to them and basically they all said, “We love it.” But then, by looking at their actual usage, they don’t use it that much. I guess one of their questions was when should I be looking at my data? Everyone is very busy. As you’re an artist, you need to perform, you need to write music, you need to engage with your fans and same goes with everyone. When should I look at data? The reality is by being a data company, we do get all the data, we have all the numbers. We have ways to know when things are supposed to be known, when artists should be acting on something. We just turn this into this email notifications. Anytime we notice that an artist is doing better than expected, we just let them know right away. Brian: That’s great. Do you do it on the opposite end too? If there’s an unexpected drop or maybe like, “Oh, you put a new track out and your socials dropped,” or something like that, do you look at the negative side too or do you tend to only promote the positive changes? Julien: As far as pushes, we decided to only do push for positive. But as you mentioned weekly performance, weekly performance can give you some negative insights, like, “You’re not doing as well as artists with the same size of audience as yours.” The reason we didn’t do it for our notification is, anomalies are really hard to completely control. A reason, for instance, is Twitter removing bots. Basically, every single artist would have had an email telling them, “You lost Twitter followers this week.” It was a lot of work to really tune our anomaly factor to actually only send emails when something legitimate happens. That’s the reason we only decided so far to do it for positive but we actually have been thinking about doing the same for negative but that’s another type of work. Brian: Yeah, you’re right. You have to mature these things over time. You don’t want to be a noise generator. Julien: Exactly. Brian: Too many, then people start to ignore you. I’ve seen that with other data products I’ve worked on which just have really dumb alerting mechanisms that are very binary or they’re set at a hard threshold and just shootout noise and people just tune it out. Julien: I’m glad you mentioned this because this feature was in beta for a year for that specific reason. Brian: Got it. Julien: We had to learn the hard way. We had like a hundred beta users. We’ve got way too many emails because anytime there were an anomaly anywhere, they would just get an email. For the most part, it was things that were supposed to help them. If a notification becomes noise, then that’s absolutely against its purpose. Brian: I don’t know if everybody knows how the music business works, at least from the popular music side, but just to summarize. You have individual artists that are actually performers. They may or may not have an artist manager which takes care of their business affairs, represents them like negotiations with people that book shows. Then you have labels which are sort of like an artist manager except they’re really focused on the recording assets that the artist makes and they actually tend to own the recordings outright at the beginning and then over time, the artist may recoup through sales they make it the ownership act and the sound recordings they make. Of those kinds of three major groups, is there a one that’s particularly hungry or you’re the squeaky wheel that is most interested in what you’re doing? Julien: I really think that into these three groups, we have a subset of users that are really into the data and into the actionability of it. I don’t think it’s one specific group of user. It could be all around the industry like we have the data-savvy, they really want to know. We have some users that actually would rather get more notifications even if they need to on their end to figure what is right from what is wrong. But since we have such a wide user base of different type of people, we decided to go on the conservative side and make sure to only share things that we thoroughly validated through all of our filters. Brian: I assume that your group reports into some division of Pandora, I’m not sure of that. Are you reporting into a technology, like an IT, or a business unit, or marketing? Where do you guys fit in the Pandora world? Julien: We’re part of the creator’s tools. I don’t really have a perfect answer to this. Brian: Okay. I guess my main question being, because when we talk about designing services, we talk about both user experience, which is the end user thing and about business success or organization success. I’m curious, how does Pandora measure that Next Big Sound as delivering value? I can understand, I’m sure our artist can understand how the artists value it through understanding how is my music moving my audiences, et cetera. Is there a way that Pandora looks at it? Are they interested in just time spent? The analytics on the analytics, so to speak, is what I’m asking about. How do you guys look at it like, “Hey, this is really doing a good job,” or whatever? Do you know how that’s looked at? Julien: To be honest, I think you said it right. Our goal is to help artists make their decisions through data and having artists use the platform is currently the way Pandora sees us doing a good job. Actually, it hasn’t changed that much since our acquisition. One of our main KPI for the past and couple of years is something I would call insights consumes. Just making sure that our users, artists, anyone using Next Big Sound are consuming data. That can be them logging into the website or that can be them opening one of our notifications. But so far that was our main KPI. We’re trying to work on some more targeted KPI, potentially like actions taken, that would be the North Star, but we're still working on how to do that right. Brian: Do you guys facilitate actions, so to speak, directly in the tool or are there things people can do with those actions really take place outside of the context of Next Big Sound? Julien: There are actions that artists can take to the other creator’s tools provided by Pandora. For instance, artists have the ability to send audio messages to anyone listening to them. If they go on tour into the US, they can have targeted messages in every single song they’re going to play. If anyone listens to them there, they can just click and buy a ticket. We’re working to make sure that artists are aware of these tools because they are free and they’re generally helping them grow at their careers. But regarding external actions, so far we don’t have any one-click way to tweet at the right time to the right people or with the right content or anything like this. Brian: Sure and that’s understood. Not every analytics product is going to have a direct actionable insight that comes right out of it. You guys may be feeling a longer term picture about trending and maybe for a certain artist to get an idea if they’re releasing music fairly frequently, what stuff is working and resonating, and what stuff is not. I can understand that. There may not be a button to click as a result immediately. Julien: That’s the goal though. Everything we do right now is going towards this objective. Maybe I can tell you a little about the way we think about data and that can give more sense to it. In order to work on any new feature, we follow this concept called the data pyramid. It’s something that you can Google. There’s a Wikipedia page for it. Let me explain to you how it works. The data pyramid, it’s a pyramid formed of four layers. It could be upon each other and each representing an exquisitely useful application of data. At the bottom of the pyramid we have the data layer. Any sort of data that we may have. For our case, Android data, Twitter, Facebook just getting the numbers, getting the raw data. On top of it, we have the information layer. The information layer is going to be ways you have to visualize this data. I guess it’s like the very broad sense of analytics. We’re going to give you tables, graphs, pie charts, you name it. We’re giving you ways to craft stories about this data but it’s on you to figure it out. Then on top of it we have what we call the knowledge layer. That’s where things start to get interesting. The knowledge layer is the contextual part of it. It’s like, “What do this number actually mean?” It has industry expertise. For instance, the way we’re going to work about it for musicians and their true data may be different than any other industry. The knowledge layer goes like a weekly performance. It’s a perfect answer to it. It’s what does it mean for me as a musician with a hundred fans to get two mentions this week. Same for notifications. It’s telling you that you should be looking at your data right now because something is happening. That’s how we get to the North Star and the last part of the data pyramid which is intelligence. The goal of intelligence is actionability. Now that I get to understand what does this number mean to the specific context, what should I be doing? Following your question, everything we’re trying to do here is to get to a point where we can just send an email to an artist and tell them, “Hey, you should be doing this right now because, with all the data that we have, we believe that this is going to have the highest impact for you.” Brian: It‘s really fascinating that you just outlined this data pyramid. I actually haven’t heard of this before. It made me think of one of the kind of, it’s not a joke but in the music community, I’m also a composer and when we write stuff, the kind of running joke is like nothing is new. Your ideas for this new song or this new melody I’m composing, it probably came before you. You heard it there before. I wrote a post on my list that was pretty much exactly the same thing except the knowledge layer. I was calling that insight. Data have been this raw format and information being the first human-readable format that’s like say going from raw data to a chart, a histogram. Now I have a line on a chart and then the insight layer being, I have a line on the chart and another line comparing it to like you said, average, or my social group, or a parent group, or some taxonomy, or an index. Then the action or the prescription for what to do or the prediction those that kind of lead you in about action which would be that fourth state. You’re like, “Oh, is this really a new concept?” It’s like, “Nope. Someone else already thought of that.” I totally want to go read about this data pyramid. Julien: That’s amazing. Brian: I’ll find that link to the data pyramid and I’ll put that in the show notes for sure. I thought that was really funny. Julien: It’s funny that you called it insight because that’s the way we call a lot of our features are working out. The way we define insight is bite-size, noteworthy, sharable content. How can we get into the noise of all of the data that only gives you exactly what you should be looking at. That’s how we got into notification and weekly performances. This is the one thing you should be looking at. Brian: I understand what you’re getting at there. The insights are, like you said, bite-size chunks of interesting stats that someone can put some kind of context around. That’s great and it’s good. One of the things I liked, too, that you talked about was you said, “Oh we got like a hundred users, like a beta group and that kind of inspired some of this.” Your product response to how do we help people know when to come and look at our service. I think this is really good because one of the problems that I see with clients and people on the list, I think is low engagement. This is especially true for internal analytics companies. Low engagement can be a symptom of a difficult product, it doesn’t provide the right information at the right time, it may not have a lot of utility, or it’s a resistance to change. People have done something the old way and they don't want to do it the new way. One of the recipes you can follow if you’re trying to do a redesign or increase engagement is to involve the people that are going to use the service in the design process, both the stakeholders as well as the end customers. This is especially true again for the internal analytics people. Your customers or other employees and your colleagues. By engaging them in the design process, they’re much more likely to want to change whatever they’re doing now. I loved how you guys did some research. Now I want to ask, do you frequently do either usability testing or interviews? Is that an ongoing thing at your company or is it really just in front of a big feature release or something like that? How do you guys do this research? Can you tell me about that? Julien: Of course. It’s consent. We haven’t released any major feature without doing some heavy user testing. I’m very lucky to be working with two designers, Justin and Anabelle who are very user-focused. Honestly, if you come to our office, at least every week we’re going to have some user interview and just talking to them, showing them prototypes, and just see how do they play with it. Brian: So you’re doing a lot of testing it sounds like. That’s fantastic. Julien: At the same time it’s always to find the right balance because you could be overtesting things too. We really are focusing on user testing for new things and make sure that the future that we are working on actually answers their user story that we intended. Brian: I don’t know how involved you get participating in these, but do you have any interesting stories or anecdotes that you got from one of those that you could share? Julien: Let me think. I do participate into a lot of them but I’m not sure I have an example right now. Brian: Are most of the people you interview, are they current users of Next Big Sound or do you tend to focus on maybe artists that haven’t experienced the service yet or you mix it up? Julien: We mix it up. We mostly engage with users that we already have but then we can decide to go with users that haven’t used the platform for a while, or more active users if you want to understand how we’re useful into their day to day. What I would say is that, surprisingly, it’s very easy to get users to chat about their experience with the product. I didn’t assume that we would get so many responses when we tried to have people come over or just hop on the zoom to check a new feature. Brian: I’m glad you actually mentioned that because I think in some places, recruiting is perceived to be difficult and it probably isn’t. Maybe you haven’t done it before but as I tell a lot of my clients, a lot of people love to have someone listen to them talk, tell them all about their life and what’s wrong with it, and how it could be better with their tools. They love having someone listen to them and especially if they know that their feedback is going to influence a tool or a service that they’re using. They tend to be pretty engaged with it. I find it’s really rare that I do an interview with a client’s customer and they don’t want to be included in the future round like, “Hey, when we redesign the service, can we come back to you and show you what we’ve done?” “Oh, I love to do that!” Everybody wants to get engaged with it. There are places where recruiting can be difficult when it’s hard to access the users, some of the enterprise software space that can be an issue sometimes. But generally, if you can get access to them, they tend to be pretty willing to participate. I’m glad you mentioned that. Julien: I think the great part about testing with current users on the platform is to actually show them prototypes with real data, not just show them an abstract idea that we want to work on. As soon as they can see what we’re working on apply to their own career as musicians, for instance, that can lead to fascinating discussions. Brian: You made a really good point on the real data thing. I remember as far back as 10 years ago or whenever, I use to work at Fidelity Investments, we would see this issue when we’re working on the retail site for investors. When you show a portfolio that, for example, has Apple stock trading at $22 in it, you’re not really there to test what is the price of Apple stock but you might be testing something entirely different and the customer cannot bear what is going on? They’re so stuck on this thing. It’s all fake seed data in the prototype. The story here being if you’re a listener, when you test it’s important to have at least realistic data. You don’t want to have noise in the test or whatever your studying or else you can end up on this tangent. Try to make the numbers looks somewhat realistic if you’re using quantitative data. In some cases, people can be taught to roleplay. Pretend you’re Drake or pretend you’re some big artist and then they can get their head around why they have billions of streams instead of thousands which they’re used to. Julien: Absolutely. That also helps us just build better products because the reality is we have a lot of artists with maybe 10 plays in a month. As we build visualizations like something that we built a line of looking at Drake’s data, it’s not going to work as intended for a smaller artist sometimes. Having real data involved as soon as possible into the design process has been such a game changer for us. We really have a multidisciplinary team involved into the research and design of everything we do. I’m working with a data scientist, data engineer, a web engineer, and designer on a daily basis. Obviously, we all have our things to do. But as we get into creating something new, we just make sure to have someone helping us get the real data, interview the right user, and just create prototypes as soon as possible. Working with prototypes is essential into building useful data analytics tools. Brian: Yes, you do learn a lot more with a working prototype. It’s not to say you can’t test with lower fidelity goods, especially early on but for a service like yours when the range of possible use both the personas and also you’ve got the Drakes of the world, big major label artist and then down to really small independents, it’s really important to have an idea how your charts are going to scale, and what’s going to happen with data. Even just small stuff like how many decimal points should you be showing on a mobile device, some of the numbers might cram up. Julien: Exactly. Brian: All this stuff that you never think, if you only look at one version of everything, you can end up with a mess. I’m glad that you brought that up. Julien: I couldn’t say better. The decimal is actually something that we’ve had to discover through real data. Brian: To all of you in the technical people out there, I will say this. If I’ve seen one trend with engineers, is they love precision and there’s a lot of times when there’s very unnecessary precision being added to numbers. Such as charts and histograms. Histograms are usually about the trend, they’re not about identifying what was the precise value on this date at this time. It’s about the change over time. Showing what’s my portfolio worth down to three digits of micro-cents or something like that is just unnecessary detail. You can probably just round up to the dollar or even hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars in some cases. It actually is worse. The reason it’s worse is that adds unnecessary noise to the interface, you’re providing all these inks that someone has to mentally process, and it’s actually not really meaningful ink because the change is what’s important. Think about precision when you’re printing values. Julien: This concept of noise is so essential today for any data analytics tools. There is so much data today. There is data for everything. I think it’s our responsibility as a data analytics company to make sure what are we actually trying to help our user with this data set is not just about adding new metrics. Adding new metrics usually is just going to add noise and not be helpful in comparison to fairing what do they need to make the right decision. Brian: Right. Complexity obviously goes up. The single verb, ‘add,’ as soon as you do that, you’re generally adding complexity. One of the design tools that is not used a lot, and this is something I try to help clients with is, what can we take away? If we're not going to cut it out entirely, can we move this feature, maybe this comparison to a different level of detail? Maybe it’s hidden behind a button click, or it’s not the default. But removing some stuff is a way to obviously simplify as well, especially if you do need to add new things. Your only weapon is not the pencil, you’ve got the eraser as well in the battle so to speak. Julien: I couldn’t agree more. On Next Big Sound we have this concept of artist stages. It’s a way for us to put artist into buckets and by looking at their social instrument data. It goes from undiscovered to epic. We do that by looking at all of the data we have and looking at it in context. I don’t have the numbers right now because they update on a daily basis but every artist starts undiscovered. For instance, as they get 1000 Facebook likes, maybe they’re going to get to a promising stage. We have all of these thresholds moving everyday looking at trends among social services. But what is interesting is that for instance, for a booker, a booker doesn’t need to look at the exact number of Twitter followers for an artist. He needs to know that he’s booking for a midsized venue in the city he’s in and he’s probably going to be looking for promising to established artists and not looking for the mainstream to epic artists. It’s always about figuring a way to use the numbers to tell the story. Brian: I’m totally selfishly asking for myself here, but I was immediately curious. I live in Cambridge which is in the Boston area, and I am curious who are the big artists in our area and what is the concentration? I’m in a niche. I’m more in the performing arts market, in the jazz, in world music, and classical music but I’m just curious. Is there a way to look at it by the city and know what your artist community looks like? You guys do anything like that? Julien: We don’t currently. But I think YouTube has actually a C-level chart available. It’s not part of something we do because I think the users it would benefit are not the users we specifically try to work on new features. It’s more something for bookers than artists ,specifically ,but it’s exactly the type of thing that we need to think about when we prioritize new features. Brian: I’m curious just because the topic’s fairly hot. Everybody is trying to do machine learning projects these days. I don’t like the term AI because it tends to be a little bit overloaded but are you guys using machine learning to accomplish any particular problems or add any new value to your service right now? Is that on your horizon? Julien: How do you think about machine learning? Brian: A lot of times I associate it with predictive analytics or understanding where you might be running instead of just using statistics. I don’t know what kind of data you might have for your learning that you can feed in but maybe there’s aspects about artists that can predict. Especially, I would think like in the pop music world where there tends to be more commercialization of the music, I would say, where it’s like we need a two-minute dance track at this tempo specifically because DJs are going to play it. It’s a very commercial thing. It’s very different than what I’m used to. So I’m curious if there’s a way to predict out how an artist may do or what kinds of tracks are performing well. Like these tempo songs, we predict over the next six months that tech house music at 160 beats for a minute is going to do really well based on the trending. I don’t know. I’m throwing stuff out there. The goal, obviously, is not to try to use like, “Oh Home Depot has this new hammer, let’s run out and get it. We don’t even know what it’s for but everyone else is buying it.” That’s how I joke about machine learning. It’s like you need to have a problem that necessitates that particular tool. I don’t ask such that, “Oh there should be some.” I’m more curious as to whether or not it’s a tool that you guys are leveraging at this time. Julien: The Next Big Sound team doesn’t worked on features following the musical aspects of things. We really are focused on the user data. Brian: Engagement and social. Julien: Engagement data mostly, yes. But at the same time, I’m sure teams have worked on this because of the way that genome works. We have a lot of data about the way songs are made. Regarding machine learning, on the Next Big Song team, we actually have something that is called the prediction chart. You said predictions. We have this chart that is available every week. Basically, it really goes back to having data for a long time. The fact that we’ve had data since 2009, we’ve been able to see artists actually get from starting to charting on the Billboard 200. By having all of these data, we’ve been able to see some trends, some things that usually happen for artists at specific times in their career up until they get into the Billboard 200. We actually do have some algorithms that allow us to apply this learning to all of the artists on Next Big Sound right now and have a list every week of artist that we believe are most likely to appear on the Billboard 200 chart next year. Brian: I see. Got it. Do you track your accuracy rate on that internally and change it over time? Do you adjust the model? Julien: Yeah, we do. Brian: Cool That’s really neat. Tell me, this chat has been super fun. I’ve selfishly got a little indulgent because being a musician, it’s fun to talk about these two worlds that I’m really passionate about so I could go on forever with you about this. But I’m curious. Do you have any advice for other product managers or analytics practitioners about how to design good data products and services? How to make either your own organization happy or your customers happy? Do you have any advice to them? Julien: Yeah, of course. I guess it’s all about asking questions, honestly. What is very good with working at Next Big Sound is that it all started in 2009. Maybe actually I can go back and tell you the story about how it started and why it’s so different today. It started in 2009. It was actually a project, a university project by the three co-founders. Basically, they were wondering about one thing. How many plays does a major artist get on the biggest music platform in the world? At that time, it was MySpace. The artist they picked was Akon. Basically, they just built a crawler, went to bed, woke up, and discovered that an artist like Akon was getting 500,000 plays on MySpace in one night in 2009. The challenge in 2009 was to get the data. That’s why for the most part in Next Big Sound as it started was, I really think a data aggregation tool. Our goal was to get as many sources as possible and just make them easily accessible into the same place. We really are much into the information layer here. We’re giving you all the numbers and you can compare Tumblr to Vimeo, to YouTube, to Twitter, to Facebook, to Vine, to you name it into a table or a graph that you want to. The reality is, today things change. We don't need to fight to get data anymore. We don’t need to hike our way into getting the numbers. Now, data is accessible to everyone in a very easy way. It’s kind of a contract. You, by being an artist, you know you’re going to get access to your Spotify, YouTube, Pandora, Apple Music or any other platform data very easily just by signing up and authenticating as an artist. That’s where our goal changes. Thankfully, we don’t need to convince people to care about data, we know they do already. But now the challenge is different. Now, the challenge is to make them understand what does their data mean and how can they turn it into getting even more data, getting into having even more engagement, and having even more plays. I think that’s something that is very interesting because it really resonates into the question we’ve been asked in the past few years like, “What does my data mean and when should I be looking at my data?” If anything, these two things correlated pretty well. People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions. That’s the core of what we’re trying to achieve today. We couldn’t be there if we didn’t have users that ask us the right questions. Brian: Cool that’s really insightful. Just to maybe tie it off at the end and maybe you can’t share this but what’s your home run? What is your holy grail look like? Is there a place you guys know you want to get? Maybe it’s the lack of data or you don’t have access to the data in order to provide that service. Do you guys have kind of a picture of where it is you want to take the service? Julien: What is very noble about our goal at Next Big Sound specifically is we’re here to help artists. The North Star would be to make sure that any artist at any time in their career is doing everything they can do to play more shows, to reach to more people, and to make sure their music is heard. Brian: Nice. I guess it’s like you’re already there, just maybe the level of quality and improving that experience over time, that’s your goal. It’s not so much that there’s so much unobtainable thing at this moment. Is that kind of how you see it? Julien: I think the more we don’t feel just a data analytics tool, the more we’re getting to that goal. I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data. We’re always going to provide a very customizable tool for the data-savvy because they know what they need more than we can ever do it for them. We want to make sure that for everyone else, we can just make it very easy and as simple as a click for them to do something that’s going to impact them positively. Brian: Cool, man. This has been really exciting to have you on the show. Julien, can you tell the listeners where can they find you on the interwebs? Are you on Twitter or LinkedIn? How do they find you? Julien: For sure. @julienbenatar on Twitter, nextbigsound.com is free for everyone. Actually, we made our data public recently, so if you ever want to learn more about what we do, please check it out. We try to post on our blog about what we learn through data science, through design, and share more about why we build what we build. I recommend to just check blog and do some commitment to learn more about what we do. Brian: I definitely recommend people check out the site. The fun thing is again, as you said, it’s public. If there’s a band you like or whatever, you can type in any group that you like to listen to and you can get access to those insights. Just kind of get a flavor of what the service does. I’ll put those links in the show notes as well as the data pyramid. Julien, cool. Thanks for coming on. Is there anything else do you like to add before we wrap it up? Julien: No, thank you so much. I love reading your newsletters and I’m very happy to be here. Brian: Cool. Thank you so much. Let’s do it again. Julien: Cool. Brian: Cool. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Experiencing Data with Brian O’Neill. If you did enjoy it, please consider sharing it with #experiencingdata. To get future podcast updates or to subscribe to Brian’s mailing list where he shares his insights on designing valuable enterprise data products and applications, visit designingforanalytics.com/podcast. 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We’re back with a special music-related analytics episode! Following Next Big Sound’s acquisition by Pandora, Julien Benatar moved from engineering into product management and is now responsible for the company’s analytics applications in the Creator Tools division. He and his team of engineers, data scientists and designers provide insights on how artists are performing on Pandora and how they can effectively grow their audience. This was a particularly fun interview for me since I have music playing on Pandora and occasionally use Next Big Sound’s analytics myself. Julien and I discussed: How Julien’s team accounts for designing for a huge range of customers (artists) that have wildly different popularity, song plays, and followers How the service generates benchmark values in order to make analytics more useful to artists How email notifications can be useful or counter-productive in analytics services How Julien thinks about the Data Pyramid when building out their platform Having a “North Star” and driving analytics toward customer action The types of predictive analytics Next Big Sound is doing Resources and Links: Julien Benatar on Twitter Next Big Sound website Next Big Sound blog The Data Pyramid model Quotes from Julien Benatar “I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data.” “People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions.” “One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks” “The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists.” “I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today.” Episode Transcript Brian: I’m really excited today for this episode. We have Julien Benatar on the show and he’s from a company that I’m sure a lot of people here know. You probably have had headphones on at your desk, at home, or wherever you are listening to Pandora for music. Julien , correct me if I’m wrong, you were the product manager for artist tools and insights at Next Big Sound, which is a type of data product that provides information on music listening stats to, I assume, artists’ labels as well to help them understand where their fans are and social media engagement. I love this topic. I’m also a musician, I have a profile on Next Big Sound and I feel music’s a fun way to talk about analytics and design as well because everybody can relate to the content and the domain. Welcome to the show. Did I get all that correct? Julien: Yeah, it was perfect. Brian: Cool. Tell us a little about your background. You’re from France originally? Julien: Yes, exactly. I grew up next to Paris, in Versailles more specifically, and moved to New York in 2014 to join Next Big Sound. Brian: Cool, nice. You’ve been there for about four years, something like that. You have a software engineering background and then now you’re on the product side, is that right? Julien: Exactly yes. I joined the company back when we were a startup. Software engineering was perfect, there was so much to do. To our move to Pandora, I moved to a product manager role around a year ago. Brian: Next Big Sound was independent and then they were acquired by Pandora. I assume there is good stuff about your data. Why did Pandora acquire you and how did they see you guys improving their service? Julien: We got acquired in 2015. The thing is, Next Big Sound was already really involved in the music industry. We already had clients like the three major labels and a lot of artists were using us to get access to their social data. I think it was a very natural move for Pandora as they wanted to get closer to creators and provide better analytics tools. Brian: For people that aren’t on the service, I always like to know who are the actual end users, the people logging in, not necessarily the management, but who sits down and what are some of the things that they would do? Who would log in to Next Big Sound and why? Julien: Honestly, it’s really anyone having any involvement into the music industry, so that can be an artist, obviously, try looking to try their socials and their audience on Pandora. But you can also be a booker trying to book artists in their town. We have a product that can really be used by many different user personas. But our core right now is really artists and labels, having contents on Pandora and trying to tell them the most compelling story about what they’re doing on the platform. Brian: When you think about designs, it’s hard to design and we talk about this on the mailing list sometimes but it’s really hard to design one great thing that’s perfect for everybody so usually you have to make some choices. Do you guys favor the artist, or the label, or as you call them,the bookers or whom I know as presenters,in the performing arts industry? Do you have a sweet spot, like you favor one of those in terms of experience? Julien: I think it’s something we’re moving towards, but it hasn’t always been this way. Like I told you, we used to be a startup or grow us to make a product that could work for as many people as possible. What is funny is we used to have an entity on Next Big Sound called Next Big Book where we used to provide the same type of service for the book industry. If anything, it’s been great to join Pandora because then we could really refocus on creators and it really allowed us to, I believe, create much better and more targeted analytics tools to really fulfill needs for specific people like artists and labels. Brian: I would assume individual artists are your biggest audience or is it really heavily used by the labels or who tends to… Julien: I think it’s pretty much the same honestly. I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today. I think that everyone has reasons to look at their dashboards and especially for a platform like Pandora with millions of users every month. Our goal is really just telling them a story about what does it mean to be spinning on the platform and the opportunities it opens. Brian: You talked about opportunities, do you have any stories about a particular artist or a label that may have learned something from your data and maybe they wrote to you or you found out like in an interview how they reacted like, “Hey, we changed our tool routing,” or, “Hey, we decided to focus on this area instead of that area.” Do you know anything about how it’s been put into use in the wild? Julien: Yeah, it’s used for so many different reasons. For the people who don’t use Pandora, something I really like about the platform is it’s really about quality. As you use Pandora, you have the opportunity to thumb up or thumb down songs and as you do, you’re going to get recommended more songs like the ones you like. It’s really about making sure that you get the best songs at all times. The reality then is that for artists, their top songs on Pandora can be pretty different than their top songs on other platforms because sometimes their friends are going to be just reacting more to some part of their catalog than another one. I’ve heard many times of artists changing their playlists in looking at which songs where their fans thumbing up the most on Pandora. Brian: Could you go through that again? How would they adjust their playlist? Julien: Usually, people use Pandora as a radio service. While we already have internet today, most people are listening to the radio because they’re usually are very targeted and it just works really well. The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists. We tell them, “This are your most thumbed songs on Pandora. These are the songs that people engage with the most on the platform.” Looking at this data, you can actually inform them songs that they believe they should be playing more on the store. Brian: I see. A lot of it has to do with the favoriting aspect to give them idea what’s resonating with their audiences. Julien: Qualitative feedback, yes. Brian: Got it. Actually, it’s funny you mentioned the qualitative feedback. In preparation for this, I was reading an article that you guys put out back in March about a new feature called weekly performance insights, which is really cool and this actually reminds me of something that I talked about in the Designing for Analytics mailing list, which is the act of providing qualitative guides with your analytics. A lot of times they analyze for turnout quantitative data and whenever there’s an opportunity to put stuff into context or provide qualifiers, I think that’s a really good thing and you guys look like you’ve have done some really nice things here. I’ll paraphrase it and then you can jump in and maybe give us some backstory on it. One of the things that I think is really cool is there’re concepts of normalcy in here so that, if I’m an artist and I look at my numbers, I have an idea. For your Twitter mentions, for example, you say, “For artists with 26,000 followers, we expect you to get around 44 mentions.” When you show me that I have 146 mentions, I can tell that I’m substantially higher than what my social group would be. I think that’s a really fantastic concept that people not in music could try to apply as well which is, are there normalcy bans where you’d want to sit? Is there some other type of group, maybe, an industry, or apparent group, or another business unit, whatever it may be to provide some context for what these out of the blue numbers mean that don’t have any context? How did you guys come up with that and can you tell us a bit about the design process of going from maybe just showing, “You’re at 826 apples,” as compared to what? How did you move from just a number into this these kind of logical groupings where you provide the comparisons? Julien: I think what’s really fascinating is, we really live in an age of data. As an artist, you need to be on social media for the most part. There still a lot of artists I listen to but just decide not to. It’s part of things but at the same time, real big success in the music industry didn’t change. It’s still being on the Billboard chart, getting a Grammy and all these things. But as we see this, we have millions of artists looking at their data every day and just are not able to understand, like is it good or is it not good. Everyone starts at zero. We have a strong belief that data can only be useful when put in context. Looking at the number on its own can give you a sense of how things are doing but that can also be dismissive. An example is, a very common way to look at data is to look at a number and look at the percent changing comparison to the previous week. You’ve got a bunch of tables and you look at, am I growing or am I not growing. The reality is it’s actually impossible to always have a positive percent change. There’s no artist in the world that always does better week by week. Even Beyonce, I can assure you that the week she released Lemonade, she had more engagement on Twitter than the week after. With that in mind, we really try to give a way for artists to understand how are they doing for who they are and where they are currently in their career. Next Big Sound started in 2009. One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks. For an artist, like the example you said, for instance an artist with a thousand Twitter mentions in a week, is it good or bad in comparison to their audience size? This feature comes because that’s just the question we’re asked. Artists want to know is it any good? What does this number actually mean for me? That’s why we really wanted to, in some ways, get out of being a content aggregator platform and really be a data analytics platform. How can we actually give information that can help artist make better decisions? Brian: I remember the first time I got what I would call an anomaly detection email from your service and it was about some spike in YouTube views or something like that. I thought it’s fantastic in two reasons. First of all, you identify an anomalous change and I think in this case it’s a positive anomalous change. That tells me that I should log in the tool. Secondly, you proactively delivered that to me. On the Designing for Analytics mailing list, we talk about is that user experience does not necessarily live inside your web browser interface or your hard client or whatever you’re using to show your analytics. Email and notifications are a big part of that. Can you tell me about how you guys also arrived at when you pushed these things out and maybe talk about this little anomaly detection service that you have? Julien: It all started when we got acquired by Pandora. We decided to just invite a bunch of users and just talk to them, understand how to use our product and what did they think about it. We had artists, managers, and label people come over and we just talk to them and basically they all said, “We love it.” But then, by looking at their actual usage, they don’t use it that much. I guess one of their questions was when should I be looking at my data? Everyone is very busy. As you’re an artist, you need to perform, you need to write music, you need to engage with your fans and same goes with everyone. When should I look at data? The reality is by being a data company, we do get all the data, we have all the numbers. We have ways to know when things are supposed to be known, when artists should be acting on something. We just turn this into this email notifications. Anytime we notice that an artist is doing better than expected, we just let them know right away. Brian: That’s great. Do you do it on the opposite end too? If there’s an unexpected drop or maybe like, “Oh, you put a new track out and your socials dropped,” or something like that, do you look at the negative side too or do you tend to only promote the positive changes? Julien: As far as pushes, we decided to only do push for positive. But as you mentioned weekly performance, weekly performance can give you some negative insights, like, “You’re not doing as well as artists with the same size of audience as yours.” The reason we didn’t do it for our notification is, anomalies are really hard to completely control. A reason, for instance, is Twitter removing bots. Basically, every single artist would have had an email telling them, “You lost Twitter followers this week.” It was a lot of work to really tune our anomaly factor to actually only send emails when something legitimate happens. That’s the reason we only decided so far to do it for positive but we actually have been thinking about doing the same for negative but that’s another type of work. Brian: Yeah, you’re right. You have to mature these things over time. You don’t want to be a noise generator. Julien: Exactly. Brian: Too many, then people start to ignore you. I’ve seen that with other data products I’ve worked on which just have really dumb alerting mechanisms that are very binary or they’re set at a hard threshold and just shootout noise and people just tune it out. Julien: I’m glad you mentioned this because this feature was in beta for a year for that specific reason. Brian: Got it. Julien: We had to learn the hard way. We had like a hundred beta users. We’ve got way too many emails because anytime there were an anomaly anywhere, they would just get an email. For the most part, it was things that were supposed to help them. If a notification becomes noise, then that’s absolutely against its purpose. Brian: I don’t know if everybody knows how the music business works, at least from the popular music side, but just to summarize. You have individual artists that are actually performers. They may or may not have an artist manager which takes care of their business affairs, represents them like negotiations with people that book shows. Then you have labels which are sort of like an artist manager except they’re really focused on the recording assets that the artist makes and they actually tend to own the recordings outright at the beginning and then over time, the artist may recoup through sales they make it the ownership act and the sound recordings they make. Of those kinds of three major groups, is there a one that’s particularly hungry or you’re the squeaky wheel that is most interested in what you’re doing? Julien: I really think that into these three groups, we have a subset of users that are really into the data and into the actionability of it. I don’t think it’s one specific group of user. It could be all around the industry like we have the data-savvy, they really want to know. We have some users that actually would rather get more notifications even if they need to on their end to figure what is right from what is wrong. But since we have such a wide user base of different type of people, we decided to go on the conservative side and make sure to only share things that we thoroughly validated through all of our filters. Brian: I assume that your group reports into some division of Pandora, I’m not sure of that. Are you reporting into a technology, like an IT, or a business unit, or marketing? Where do you guys fit in the Pandora world? Julien: We’re part of the creator’s tools. I don’t really have a perfect answer to this. Brian: Okay. I guess my main question being, because when we talk about designing services, we talk about both user experience, which is the end user thing and about business success or organization success. I’m curious, how does Pandora measure that Next Big Sound as delivering value? I can understand, I’m sure our artist can understand how the artists value it through understanding how is my music moving my audiences, et cetera. Is there a way that Pandora looks at it? Are they interested in just time spent? The analytics on the analytics, so to speak, is what I’m asking about. How do you guys look at it like, “Hey, this is really doing a good job,” or whatever? Do you know how that’s looked at? Julien: To be honest, I think you said it right. Our goal is to help artists make their decisions through data and having artists use the platform is currently the way Pandora sees us doing a good job. Actually, it hasn’t changed that much since our acquisition. One of our main KPI for the past and couple of years is something I would call insights consumes. Just making sure that our users, artists, anyone using Next Big Sound are consuming data. That can be them logging into the website or that can be them opening one of our notifications. But so far that was our main KPI. We’re trying to work on some more targeted KPI, potentially like actions taken, that would be the North Star, but we’re still working on how to do that right. Brian: Do you guys facilitate actions, so to speak, directly in the tool or are there things people can do with those actions really take place outside of the context of Next Big Sound? Julien: There are actions that artists can take to the other creator’s tools provided by Pandora. For instance, artists have the ability to send audio messages to anyone listening to them. If they go on tour into the US, they can have targeted messages in every single song they’re going to play. If anyone listens to them there, they can just click and buy a ticket. We’re working to make sure that artists are aware of these tools because they are free and they’re generally helping them grow at their careers. But regarding external actions, so far we don’t have any one-click way to tweet at the right time to the right people or with the right content or anything like this. Brian: Sure and that’s understood. Not every analytics product is going to have a direct actionable insight that comes right out of it. You guys may be feeling a longer term picture about trending and maybe for a certain artist to get an idea if they’re releasing music fairly frequently, what stuff is working and resonating, and what stuff is not. I can understand that. There may not be a button to click as a result immediately. Julien: That’s the goal though. Everything we do right now is going towards this objective. Maybe I can tell you a little about the way we think about data and that can give more sense to it. In order to work on any new feature, we follow this concept called the data pyramid. It’s something that you can Google. There’s a Wikipedia page for it. Let me explain to you how it works. The data pyramid, it’s a pyramid formed of four layers. It could be upon each other and each representing an exquisitely useful application of data. At the bottom of the pyramid we have the data layer. Any sort of data that we may have. For our case, Android data, Twitter, Facebook just getting the numbers, getting the raw data. On top of it, we have the information layer. The information layer is going to be ways you have to visualize this data. I guess it’s like the very broad sense of analytics. We’re going to give you tables, graphs, pie charts, you name it. We’re giving you ways to craft stories about this data but it’s on you to figure it out. Then on top of it we have what we call the knowledge layer. That’s where things start to get interesting. The knowledge layer is the contextual part of it. It’s like, “What do this number actually mean?” It has industry expertise. For instance, the way we’re going to work about it for musicians and their true data may be different than any other industry. The knowledge layer goes like a weekly performance. It’s a perfect answer to it. It’s what does it mean for me as a musician with a hundred fans to get two mentions this week. Same for notifications. It’s telling you that you should be looking at your data right now because something is happening. That’s how we get to the North Star and the last part of the data pyramid which is intelligence. The goal of intelligence is actionability. Now that I get to understand what does this number mean to the specific context, what should I be doing? Following your question, everything we’re trying to do here is to get to a point where we can just send an email to an artist and tell them, “Hey, you should be doing this right now because, with all the data that we have, we believe that this is going to have the highest impact for you.” Brian: It‘s really fascinating that you just outlined this data pyramid. I actually haven’t heard of this before. It made me think of one of the kind of, it’s not a joke but in the music community, I’m also a composer and when we write stuff, the kind of running joke is like nothing is new. Your ideas for this new song or this new melody I’m composing, it probably came before you. You heard it there before. I wrote a post on my list that was pretty much exactly the same thing except the knowledge layer. I was calling that insight. Data have been this raw format and information being the first human-readable format that’s like say going from raw data to a chart, a histogram. Now I have a line on a chart and then the insight layer being, I have a line on the chart and another line comparing it to like you said, average, or my social group, or a parent group, or some taxonomy, or an index. Then the action or the prescription for what to do or the prediction those that kind of lead you in about action which would be that fourth state. You’re like, “Oh, is this really a new concept?” It’s like, “Nope. Someone else already thought of that.” I totally want to go read about this data pyramid. Julien: That’s amazing. Brian: I’ll find that link to the data pyramid and I’ll put that in the show notes for sure. I thought that was really funny. Julien: It’s funny that you called it insight because that’s the way we call a lot of our features are working out. The way we define insight is bite-size, noteworthy, sharable content. How can we get into the noise of all of the data that only gives you exactly what you should be looking at. That’s how we got into notification and weekly performances. This is the one thing you should be looking at. Brian: I understand what you’re getting at there. The insights are, like you said, bite-size chunks of interesting stats that someone can put some kind of context around. That’s great and it’s good. One of the things I liked, too, that you talked about was you said, “Oh we got like a hundred users, like a beta group and that kind of inspired some of this.” Your product response to how do we help people know when to come and look at our service. I think this is really good because one of the problems that I see with clients and people on the list, I think is low engagement. This is especially true for internal analytics companies. Low engagement can be a symptom of a difficult product, it doesn’t provide the right information at the right time, it may not have a lot of utility, or it’s a resistance to change. People have done something the old way and they don’t want to do it the new way. One of the recipes you can follow if you’re trying to do a redesign or increase engagement is to involve the people that are going to use the service in the design process, both the stakeholders as well as the end customers. This is especially true again for the internal analytics people. Your customers or other employees and your colleagues. By engaging them in the design process, they’re much more likely to want to change whatever they’re doing now. I loved how you guys did some research. Now I want to ask, do you frequently do either usability testing or interviews? Is that an ongoing thing at your company or is it really just in front of a big feature release or something like that? How do you guys do this research? Can you tell me about that? Julien: Of course. It’s consent. We haven’t released any major feature without doing some heavy user testing. I’m very lucky to be working with two designers, Justin and Anabelle who are very user-focused. Honestly, if you come to our office, at least every week we’re going to have some user interview and just talking to them, showing them prototypes, and just see how do they play with it. Brian: So you’re doing a lot of testing it sounds like. That’s fantastic. Julien: At the same time it’s always to find the right balance because you could be overtesting things too. We really are focusing on user testing for new things and make sure that the future that we are working on actually answers their user story that we intended. Brian: I don’t know how involved you get participating in these, but do you have any interesting stories or anecdotes that you got from one of those that you could share? Julien: Let me think. I do participate into a lot of them but I’m not sure I have an example right now. Brian: Are most of the people you interview, are they current users of Next Big Sound or do you tend to focus on maybe artists that haven’t experienced the service yet or you mix it up? Julien: We mix it up. We mostly engage with users that we already have but then we can decide to go with users that haven’t used the platform for a while, or more active users if you want to understand how we’re useful into their day to day. What I would say is that, surprisingly, it’s very easy to get users to chat about their experience with the product. I didn’t assume that we would get so many responses when we tried to have people come over or just hop on the zoom to check a new feature. Brian: I’m glad you actually mentioned that because I think in some places, recruiting is perceived to be difficult and it probably isn’t. Maybe you haven’t done it before but as I tell a lot of my clients, a lot of people love to have someone listen to them talk, tell them all about their life and what’s wrong with it, and how it could be better with their tools. They love having someone listen to them and especially if they know that their feedback is going to influence a tool or a service that they’re using. They tend to be pretty engaged with it. I find it’s really rare that I do an interview with a client’s customer and they don’t want to be included in the future round like, “Hey, when we redesign the service, can we come back to you and show you what we’ve done?” “Oh, I love to do that!” Everybody wants to get engaged with it. There are places where recruiting can be difficult when it’s hard to access the users, some of the enterprise software space that can be an issue sometimes. But generally, if you can get access to them, they tend to be pretty willing to participate. I’m glad you mentioned that. Julien: I think the great part about testing with current users on the platform is to actually show them prototypes with real data, not just show them an abstract idea that we want to work on. As soon as they can see what we’re working on apply to their own career as musicians, for instance, that can lead to fascinating discussions. Brian: You made a really good point on the real data thing. I remember as far back as 10 years ago or whenever, I use to work at Fidelity Investments, we would see this issue when we’re working on the retail site for investors. When you show a portfolio that, for example, has Apple stock trading at $22 in it, you’re not really there to test what is the price of Apple stock but you might be testing something entirely different and the customer cannot bear what is going on? They’re so stuck on this thing. It’s all fake seed data in the prototype. The story here being if you’re a listener, when you test it’s important to have at least realistic data. You don’t want to have noise in the test or whatever your studying or else you can end up on this tangent. Try to make the numbers looks somewhat realistic if you’re using quantitative data. In some cases, people can be taught to roleplay. Pretend you’re Drake or pretend you’re some big artist and then they can get their head around why they have billions of streams instead of thousands which they’re used to. Julien: Absolutely. That also helps us just build better products because the reality is we have a lot of artists with maybe 10 plays in a month. As we build visualizations like something that we built a line of looking at Drake’s data, it’s not going to work as intended for a smaller artist sometimes. Having real data involved as soon as possible into the design process has been such a game changer for us. We really have a multidisciplinary team involved into the research and design of everything we do. I’m working with a data scientist, data engineer, a web engineer, and designer on a daily basis. Obviously, we all have our things to do. But as we get into creating something new, we just make sure to have someone helping us get the real data, interview the right user, and just create prototypes as soon as possible. Working with prototypes is essential into building useful data analytics tools. Brian: Yes, you do learn a lot more with a working prototype. It’s not to say you can’t test with lower fidelity goods, especially early on but for a service like yours when the range of possible use both the personas and also you’ve got the Drakes of the world, big major label artist and then down to really small independents, it’s really important to have an idea how your charts are going to scale, and what’s going to happen with data. Even just small stuff like how many decimal points should you be showing on a mobile device, some of the numbers might cram up. Julien: Exactly. Brian: All this stuff that you never think, if you only look at one version of everything, you can end up with a mess. I’m glad that you brought that up. Julien: I couldn’t say better. The decimal is actually something that we’ve had to discover through real data. Brian: To all of you in the technical people out there, I will say this. If I’ve seen one trend with engineers, is they love precision and there’s a lot of times when there’s very unnecessary precision being added to numbers. Such as charts and histograms. Histograms are usually about the trend, they’re not about identifying what was the precise value on this date at this time. It’s about the change over time. Showing what’s my portfolio worth down to three digits of micro-cents or something like that is just unnecessary detail. You can probably just round up to the dollar or even hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars in some cases. It actually is worse. The reason it’s worse is that adds unnecessary noise to the interface, you’re providing all these inks that someone has to mentally process, and it’s actually not really meaningful ink because the change is what’s important. Think about precision when you’re printing values. Julien: This concept of noise is so essential today for any data analytics tools. There is so much data today. There is data for everything. I think it’s our responsibility as a data analytics company to make sure what are we actually trying to help our user with this data set is not just about adding new metrics. Adding new metrics usually is just going to add noise and not be helpful in comparison to fairing what do they need to make the right decision. Brian: Right. Complexity obviously goes up. The single verb, ‘add,’ as soon as you do that, you’re generally adding complexity. One of the design tools that is not used a lot, and this is something I try to help clients with is, what can we take away? If we’re not going to cut it out entirely, can we move this feature, maybe this comparison to a different level of detail? Maybe it’s hidden behind a button click, or it’s not the default. But removing some stuff is a way to obviously simplify as well, especially if you do need to add new things. Your only weapon is not the pencil, you’ve got the eraser as well in the battle so to speak. Julien: I couldn’t agree more. On Next Big Sound we have this concept of artist stages. It’s a way for us to put artist into buckets and by looking at their social instrument data. It goes from undiscovered to epic. We do that by looking at all of the data we have and looking at it in context. I don’t have the numbers right now because they update on a daily basis but every artist starts undiscovered. For instance, as they get 1000 Facebook likes, maybe they’re going to get to a promising stage. We have all of these thresholds moving everyday looking at trends among social services. But what is interesting is that for instance, for a booker, a booker doesn’t need to look at the exact number of Twitter followers for an artist. He needs to know that he’s booking for a midsized venue in the city he’s in and he’s probably going to be looking for promising to established artists and not looking for the mainstream to epic artists. It’s always about figuring a way to use the numbers to tell the story. Brian: I’m totally selfishly asking for myself here, but I was immediately curious. I live in Cambridge which is in the Boston area, and I am curious who are the big artists in our area and what is the concentration? I’m in a niche. I’m more in the performing arts market, in the jazz, in world music, and classical music but I’m just curious. Is there a way to look at it by the city and know what your artist community looks like? You guys do anything like that? Julien: We don’t currently. But I think YouTube has actually a C-level chart available. It’s not part of something we do because I think the users it would benefit are not the users we specifically try to work on new features. It’s more something for bookers than artists ,specifically ,but it’s exactly the type of thing that we need to think about when we prioritize new features. Brian: I’m curious just because the topic’s fairly hot. Everybody is trying to do machine learning projects these days. I don’t like the term AI because it tends to be a little bit overloaded but are you guys using machine learning to accomplish any particular problems or add any new value to your service right now? Is that on your horizon? Julien: How do you think about machine learning? Brian: A lot of times I associate it with predictive analytics or understanding where you might be running instead of just using statistics. I don’t know what kind of data you might have for your learning that you can feed in but maybe there’s aspects about artists that can predict. Especially, I would think like in the pop music world where there tends to be more commercialization of the music, I would say, where it’s like we need a two-minute dance track at this tempo specifically because DJs are going to play it. It’s a very commercial thing. It’s very different than what I’m used to. So I’m curious if there’s a way to predict out how an artist may do or what kinds of tracks are performing well. Like these tempo songs, we predict over the next six months that tech house music at 160 beats for a minute is going to do really well based on the trending. I don’t know. I’m throwing stuff out there. The goal, obviously, is not to try to use like, “Oh Home Depot has this new hammer, let’s run out and get it. We don’t even know what it’s for but everyone else is buying it.” That’s how I joke about machine learning. It’s like you need to have a problem that necessitates that particular tool. I don’t ask such that, “Oh there should be some.” I’m more curious as to whether or not it’s a tool that you guys are leveraging at this time. Julien: The Next Big Sound team doesn’t worked on features following the musical aspects of things. We really are focused on the user data. Brian: Engagement and social. Julien: Engagement data mostly, yes. But at the same time, I’m sure teams have worked on this because of the way that genome works. We have a lot of data about the way songs are made. Regarding machine learning, on the Next Big Song team, we actually have something that is called the prediction chart. You said predictions. We have this chart that is available every week. Basically, it really goes back to having data for a long time. The fact that we’ve had data since 2009, we’ve been able to see artists actually get from starting to charting on the Billboard 200. By having all of these data, we’ve been able to see some trends, some things that usually happen for artists at specific times in their career up until they get into the Billboard 200. We actually do have some algorithms that allow us to apply this learning to all of the artists on Next Big Sound right now and have a list every week of artist that we believe are most likely to appear on the Billboard 200 chart next year. Brian: I see. Got it. Do you track your accuracy rate on that internally and change it over time? Do you adjust the model? Julien: Yeah, we do. Brian: Cool That’s really neat. Tell me, this chat has been super fun. I’ve selfishly got a little indulgent because being a musician, it’s fun to talk about these two worlds that I’m really passionate about so I could go on forever with you about this. But I’m curious. Do you have any advice for other product managers or analytics practitioners about how to design good data products and services? How to make either your own organization happy or your customers happy? Do you have any advice to them? Julien: Yeah, of course. I guess it’s all about asking questions, honestly. What is very good with working at Next Big Sound is that it all started in 2009. Maybe actually I can go back and tell you the story about how it started and why it’s so different today. It started in 2009. It was actually a project, a university project by the three co-founders. Basically, they were wondering about one thing. How many plays does a major artist get on the biggest music platform in the world? At that time, it was MySpace. The artist they picked was Akon. Basically, they just built a crawler, went to bed, woke up, and discovered that an artist like Akon was getting 500,000 plays on MySpace in one night in 2009. The challenge in 2009 was to get the data. That’s why for the most part in Next Big Sound as it started was, I really think a data aggregation tool. Our goal was to get as many sources as possible and just make them easily accessible into the same place. We really are much into the information layer here. We’re giving you all the numbers and you can compare Tumblr to Vimeo, to YouTube, to Twitter, to Facebook, to Vine, to you name it into a table or a graph that you want to. The reality is, today things change. We don’t need to fight to get data anymore. We don’t need to hike our way into getting the numbers. Now, data is accessible to everyone in a very easy way. It’s kind of a contract. You, by being an artist, you know you’re going to get access to your Spotify, YouTube, Pandora, Apple Music or any other platform data very easily just by signing up and authenticating as an artist. That’s where our goal changes. Thankfully, we don’t need to convince people to care about data, we know they do already. But now the challenge is different. Now, the challenge is to make them understand what does their data mean and how can they turn it into getting even more data, getting into having even more engagement, and having even more plays. I think that’s something that is very interesting because it really resonates into the question we’ve been asked in the past few years like, “What does my data mean and when should I be looking at my data?” If anything, these two things correlated pretty well. People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions. That’s the core of what we’re trying to achieve today. We couldn’t be there if we didn’t have users that ask us the right questions. Brian: Cool that’s really insightful. Just to maybe tie it off at the end and maybe you can’t share this but what’s your home run? What is your holy grail look like? Is there a place you guys know you want to get? Maybe it’s the lack of data or you don’t have access to the data in order to provide that service. Do you guys have kind of a picture of where it is you want to take the service? Julien: What is very noble about our goal at Next Big Sound specifically is we’re here to help artists. The North Star would be to make sure that any artist at any time in their career is doing everything they can do to play more shows, to reach to more people, and to make sure their music is heard. Brian: Nice. I guess it’s like you’re already there, just maybe the level of quality and improving that experience over time, that’s your goal. It’s not so much that there’s so much unobtainable thing at this moment. Is that kind of how you see it? Julien: I think the more we don’t feel just a data analytics tool, the more we’re getting to that goal. I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data. We’re always going to provide a very customizable tool for the data-savvy because they know what they need more than we can ever do it for them. We want to make sure that for everyone else, we can just make it very easy and as simple as a click for them to do something that’s going to impact them positively. Brian: Cool, man. This has been really exciting to have you on the show. Julien, can you tell the listeners where can they find you on the interwebs? Are you on Twitter or LinkedIn? How do they find you? Julien: For sure. @julienbenatar on Twitter, nextbigsound.com is free for everyone. Actually, we made our data public recently, so if you ever want to learn more about what we do, please check it out. We try to post on our blog about what we learn through data science, through design, and share more about why we build what we build. I recommend to just check blog and do some commitment to learn more about what we do. Brian: I definitely recommend people check out the site. The fun thing is again, as you said, it’s public. If there’s a band you like or whatever, you can type in any group that you like to listen to and you can get access to those insights. Just kind of get a flavor of what the service does. I’ll put those links in the show notes as well as the data pyramid. Julien, cool. Thanks for coming on. Is there anything else do you like to add before we wrap it up? Julien: No, thank you so much. I love reading your newsletters and I’m very happy to be here. Brian: Cool. Thank you so much. Let’s do it again. Julien: Cool. Brian: Cool. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Experiencing Data with Brian O’Neill. If you did enjoy it, please consider sharing it with #experiencingdata. To get future podcast updates or to subscribe to Brian’s mailing list where he shares his insights on designing valuable enterprise data products and applications, visit designingforanalytics.com/podcast.

Julie Yoo is the co-founder of Kyruus, a medical technology company that is the developer of ProviderMatch. One of the most frustrating things about the healthcare system is the tendency for patients to be sent to the wrong type of doctor for their health issue. The industry term for this problem is patient access paradox. ProviderMatch is software that directs patients to the proper medical specialist for their specific needs. During today’s episode, Julie and I discuss the components that make ProviderMatch an effective tool. Some of the topics we touch on are: How ProviderMatch has changed the customer service side of healthcare. How ProviderMatch helps combat physician burnout. The 3 major user bases served by the application. The 3 types of tests Kyruus uses to test new and upgraded product features. The 3 levels of analytics that Kyruus uses to measure RIO and value. Resources and Links: Kyruus Kyruus on Facebook Kyruus on LinkedIn Kyruus on Twitter Julie Yoo on Twitter Julie Yoo on LinkedIn Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of Experiencing Data. Keep coming back for more episodes with great conversations about the world through the lens of analytics and design. Episode Transcript Brian: All right so we have Julie Yoo on the podcast today from Kyruus which is based out of Boston. Julie, welcome to the podcast. How’s it going? Julie: Good, thanks Brian. Thank you so much for having me. Brian: I’m excited for you to share some of your backgrounds with our listeners. You’re currently chief product officer at Kyruus. We did some work together several years back as I recall. This is actually news to me, I don’t know this—you’re in the healthcare space and you oversee product and strategy for the company and hospitals. When we all call and we want to schedule an appointment with a doctor, a lot of us get a referral from a friend or whatever and we call them and it’s difficult to get an appointment. Reality, the hospitals often have tons of supply on their end that’s not getting used and those doctors or service providers may be fully qualified to help out those patients if only the people on the scheduling side could help match the patients up with the service provider. Is that basically what your main software, the ProviderMatch software, does? Julie: Yeah absolutely. We’re solving what we’ve coined as the patient access paradox which is that fundamental mismatch between patient demands being told to wait multiple weeks or even months to get an appointment. We all assume that that’s because every slot is booked up solid in whatever market we’re in. But it turns out that on the hospital side of things and the whole system side of things, that typically our customers are operating at anywhere from as low as 70% to 80% capacity utilization. One thing I’ll qualify there, it’s not necessarily just empty slots that are going out completely unused which is certainly an issue. But what we also focus on in best utilizing your resources for the unique expertise and skills that they bring to the table. What we also focus on is are you getting to the right doctor the first time, and that’s from a clinical lens. There’s tons of subspecialties in medicine and we want to make sure you’re getting to the right specialist. Or subspecialist or even within primary care there can be variants in terms of what people focus on. Also level of care which is if you have certain types of conditions, oftentimes part of the reason why you have to wait so long is that you’re sent immediately to a very scarce specialist resource who tends to be harder to book with, has more limited time. Whereas that condition may actually be treatable by a lower acuity provider. Anything from a generalist to primary care provider, maybe even a nurse practitioner, or even a walk-in clinic. This day and age, we see a lot more activity in terms of retail clinics and walk-in care. We look across that entire spectrum of possible options to interpretation and ensure that the patient is getting routed to the most effective place in the most efficient and possible way. Brian: That’s pretty cool. I didn’t realize there is so much missed—I mean obviously the specialists wants to see them. I have any arm problem, I need to go to the best arm doctor in the world kind of thing. We didn’t know that there was so tax, like 70% to 80% under utilization rate is pretty interesting. So why don’t you tell me about your background. I know you studied pre medicine at MIT and you have an MBA from Harvard, is that correct? And you went to MIT Sloan. You have quite a background. What do you do at Kyruus yourself, and can you tell us about your background a little bit? Julie: Yeah, absolutely. It’s blasphemy that you just said that I went to Harvard MBA. I went to MIT for my MBA. Actually, I came to MIT as an undergrad thinking that I wanted to be a doctor when I grew up. I started out as a biology major doing pre med. I’m happy to be in school during the initial original dot-com boom back in the late ’90s and actually got influenced to get computer science and fell in love with it. Just the problem solving aspects of it, and I love coding and building things from nothing. I ended up actually majoring in computer science while also finishing up my premed exam requirement. My first job out of college was actually as a software engineer so I totally focused on the technical side of that track. Always, however, maintaining my personal interests in the intersection of healthcare and technology. The first several years of my career was software engineering. I worked at a company called Endeca Technologies here in Boston which I think is pretty well-known locally. They were an enterprise search technology initially focused and I think probably best known for their work in the ecommerce space. We powered the online search catalog for the major ecommerce companies across the country and even the world. I cut my fuse there and then ultimately figured out that I love being customer facing, I was kind of intrigued by the business side of things. I migrated more into product and eventually now today, I’m more of a product manager is kind of where I would identify myself. Also at the same time about six years since my career at Endeca, that was really when the federal government started pouring resources into the digitization of healthcare and that was really when I had a lightbulb moment myself around the opportunity within healthcare to apply software and technology and data to improve efficiencies as we were talking about earlier but also […] simple outcomes, of course. And so I actually made a career change by way of grad school which is how I ended up at MIT Sloan. The Harvard component is that I did a dual degree program that was a collaboration between Harvard and MIT. By way of that, I got exposure to both the business side as well as the clinical side. The Harvard-MIT HST program is the collaboration between Harvard Medical School and MIT Proper. I did my masters with that program. I initially actually focused on personalized medicine, something that’s completely unrelated to what we do here at Kyruus but it was intuitively an area where I can apply my data analytics and software expertise given that […] where software was being applied at scale in the healthcare and life sciences area. The first couple of companies that I did were in that area of genomics and genetic sequencing and personalized medicine. I had a couple of companies that I worked with there, especially the first employee of both companies on the product side, and both of those companies eventually got acquired. The second company was acquired in 2010, that was when myself and my current cofounder Graham Gardner decided to get together and go after the opportunity that Kyruus has focused on around patient access. I was the founding chief product officer at Kyruus. I wrote the first version of the product with my own two hands and have shaped the road map, user engagement, definitely own design as part of the product management function and have now as the company has scaled moved into more of a strategy role. Really focused on three to five years direction of the business, new market segment, how do we fit into the broader technology ecosystem within the digital health space but really have my anchoring and foundation in product. Brian: Cool. Thanks for sharing that background. You mentioned in there that you own the design as part of your role in product at Kyruus. If I recall correctly with ProviderMatch, the primary end users tend to be people that are scheduling appointments which may include some people with medical background like the nurse managers I believe and you’re trying to provide them with the tool that lets them take in patient requests or things like language of the provider, gender of the provider, location of the provider and obviously dates of availability. Then they are able to type in a condition like skin rash or something and then the scheduler is able to provide them with a response like, “We have these four people available on Tuesday from 11:00 to 3:00, they’re all great, here’s where they went to school.” Is that still what it is and can you tell me about how do you go about designing that experience and how do you guys know if you’re doing a good job besides the fact that the checks clear and they keep renewing. How do you guys evaluate and design for that? Julie: Yeah. You do remember correctly that one of our major user bases is the patient after call center agent who is a front line staff member whose job is to answer the phone all day every day and help patients get matched to the right doctor and then book an appointment. That was our flagship product called ProviderMatch for access centers that we launched over five years ago at this point. That remains a major user constituent that we serve. Since then, we’ve expanded our product portfolio just to make it a little bit more complicated. We actually now I would say have three major users that we serve in addition to that. One being the call center agent that you described, another actually being the patient or the consumer, him or herself. We actually have launched a patient facing product called ProviderMatch for Consumers several years ago at this point, but the idea there is to enable us consumers to self-serve. We have a white label product that our customers will embed in their websites or their mobile apps. They’re kind of public facing digital storefront, so to speak. That allows for us to do our own research on who might be the best provider for me based on my preferences and my criteria. And then also facilitate on my scheduling, being able to actually book an appointment physically online. That’s the second user-base that we serve. Then a third major user-base is actually the physicians and the providers themselves and this has become a very powerful leverage point for us to be able to engage these organizations at scale and really provide a strong value proposition back to the physicians who I would say, traditionally in the digital health world, are sometimes viewed as optical. A lot of companies struggle to really engage with those providers and expect the value proposition that’s big enough to get those individuals to buy in, let alone to actually use product. You may recall originally my philosophy around ProviderMatch was we need to design a product that can be deployed and go live and drive value without any reliance on physicians doing anything in our product. The primary reason for that is that physicians are extremely busy. I think the strategy to depend on the physician to come out of whatever their core workflow is, take away from the time that they’re spending with a patient to learn a new thing and/or using a different app than what is core to their clinical mission through observing the patient. We actually started with that philosophy, but as we matured and as we were demonstrating great outcomes, we were able to kind of pivot into a much more explicit physician engagement approach. Today, they are actually the majority of our users, technically speaking, in terms of the number of users who are accessing our products, that’s another dimension to it. As you can imagine, each of those user bases is extremely different. We could go on and on and I’m happy to go in whatever direction would make sense but we have a pretty distinct framework that we use for each one of those user-bases. Yes, we serve them all through the same uniform platform and there are certain elements of consistencies that we want to drive across user experience across those three user-bases. But as you can imagine, the use cases, the stories, the scenarios that we’re addressing within each of those products can be quite […]. Brian: Can you tell us a little bit about how you design for these different constituencies, if you have like a recent anecdote about maybe a project you guys did and how do you keep all this simple and keep the scheduling time as minimal as possible which I assume would be the goal here, so that the maximum time is spent on patient care? How do you design for those experiences? How do you move through that? Julie: I think just the basic thing we start is just a crisp definition of the actual user personas and certainly each of those user sets is using our product for a very different purpose. Take the call center agent for instance, when they answer the phone, the person on the other end of the phone clearly already has some intention of taking some action because they’ve gone through the work of dialing the member, waiting for someone to answer, and clearly are looking to get served. A lot of message that around that user base is efficiency. You’ve got only a few seconds to capture the attention of that customer and essentially convert them. One of the ways that we define the job of the call center agent that might be distinct from the other users is their primary goal is conversion. They need to drive yields from every 10 calls that come in with a patient looking to get an appointment. We want the number of booked appointments that come out of that to actually be 10. Some of the sort of sad state of affairs in the healthcare industry is that many of the organizations that we engage with are starting at conversion rates as low as 20% meaning every 10 patient that call in, trying to get an appointment, maybe only 2 of them will leave that call with an actual booked appointment in hand. There’s a ton of sort of depth around how do we drive that use case for that user base, which is distinct from the consumer. The consumer, I may just be doing research and I might be early in my funnel, in my patient journey and not yet ready to book an appointment when I’m engaging with ProviderMatch. It might not even be me, I might be doing some research on behalf of someone else or certainly I might be coming with an intention to book. I would say a big challenge that we’re still chipping away at and have tons to learn is how do you effectively segment those user stories and scenarios and serve all those user sets and narrative through a single product. That is a different set of problems. Whereas physicians, on the other hand, the primary goal for them to come into our solution is to optimize the configuration of rules engines that determine which patients get referred or scheduled with them. That’s much more of a personal experience in a lot of ways because the physician is looking to us, our products, to help describe to the world what it is that they do and under what circumstances should a patient be sent to me. That sort of elicits a whole different emotional experience in some ways that relies heavily on an empathy for the perspective of that physician and really a kind of, I would say, caution around making too many assumptions about what that individual is looking to accomplish or how they want to express their clinical expertise through our product. There’s a whole, again, another set of narratives around that piece Just that mere definition, hopefully it paints the picture of just the complexity that results from having to serve such user set. We do have different team that focus on different user experiences as well and that ability to have individuals specialize in certain areas just gives us a lot of depth around how we’re able focus and describe a lot of insight into those varied populations versus kind of diluting it by having teams spread across those areas. Those are some of the types of framework that we use to be able to effectively address those user populations. Brian: Do you have either your designers and/or the product managers, it sounds like you have them assigned to each of the different products that focus on the different personas, do they do any type of interviews or any type of research activities with these, I’m curious, you can like learn anything, have any cool nuggets of stuff that maybe you would have found out through the design process about talking to a doctor, like, “I would never type in that I’m an expert at this even though I totally am because X,” or… Julie: Yeah. Brian: …did you find any nuggets that are kind of interesting? Julie: Yeah, absolutely we do, I would say, three major types of testing. One is we actually are privileged to have lots of folks who are either physicians or ex-hospital administrators at our company, so we have in house team that can serve as sort of test users for a lot of our new concepts, where we do kind of an internal testing when we’re developing new ideas or get designs. That’s one way we do it. We also obviously use external testers as well, whether it be sites like usertesting.com or other service that allow you to recruit ad hoc users and test various concepts. We’ve got a lot of that kind of work as well. We also go observe our users at our customer site and we’ve done a combination of both observation of actual call center agent-type users within their dedicated setting, but also direct consumer research, we’ll giveaway Starbucks cards to regular people off the street who are willing to kind of sit down and give us feedback. All of that is a source of data into our process. So many stories of things were just completely eye opening. Everything from, I mentioned earlier, the emotion that gets elicited when you are working with a physician to try to define what their referral protocols are. Imagine sitting down with an engineer and designing a routing protocol for determining what project they get assigned to and just how personal of an experience that would be. That’s kind of the same lens that we observe and experience with the physician in a period of time where you may have read this or heard this, but certainly in healthcare, one of the major topics and stories that has a lot of buzz right now is physician burnout. We live and breathe it every single day with our users where physicians are really burned out and their job has become less about direct patient care and much more about administrative tasks and tracking of data and submission of billing information, things of that sort. Part of the line that we have to navigate is how do we introduce our solution which we believe has such a strong correlation with less burn out sensation and the ability to actually focus on the types of cases that you want to focus on and leverage your many years of training for the thing that you’re uniquely qualified to do. How do we do that in this context where people have no mental space and energy left to take on new products and new applications in the workforce, a new task. I think the emotional aspect of the finishing engagement piece is definitely something that I distinctly remember from so many of those conversations. And then I think it’s also form a consumer lens, when I think about the patients, I think we’re doing a big role. A part of our role at Kyruus I believe is to really educate market about how to think about doctor appointment booking. I think too often, consumers think that whatever appointment they can get soonest is the best option for them. Obviously, they don’t necessarily realize the downstream negative impact of making a choice to go see one kind of doctor who is available tomorrow versus waiting maybe a few days or maybe a couple of weeks to see the doctor who might be better qualified for you from a clinical end. That’s part of what our product is about, the core philosophy of our solution is, yes, get the patient in efficiently and quickly as possible but never at the expense of getting them to the right clinical provider. That’s another piece that I see come out in droves when we’re doing user-testing is, “Why can’t I just book this one that is the soonest,” before in the workflow two steps ago and just kind of explaining, how do we present that in the user experience has been a big challenge for us. But certainly something that is a primary goal for our product. Brian: Do you find with the service that you provide that’s more doctor facing especially on where they—it sounds like they have to input a bunch of preferences which then enables them to receive more qualified bookings into their calendar so to speak. Is it hard? One of the things I talk about in my list a lot is the need to go out and have direct one-on-one conversations with the people that are going to use your solutions. Especially with analytics products where lots of data—as the data grows, the complexity tends to go up. What one of the problems that enterprise that companies have is access to the actual, not the buyers of these platforms, maybe you’re selling into a CTO or something like that in a hospital network but they’re probably not the ones that are going to be using the interfaces and it’s hard to get access. Do you have that problem and do you have any ways that you’ve worked around to entice them to participate in research? Julie: Absolutely, that is absolutely a challenge for any company in our space with positions in particular at the audience. Even frankly with our call center agents because they have such a real time job that any interruption during the day while they’re on call to answer the phone can be viewed as engagement. Yes, we absolutely deal with that. We have the benefit of a—my cofounder’s position, our CEO, we happen to have a very rich network of physicians who are friendly to Kyruus and are certainly willing to take time out of their day to come tell us what it’s like on the other side and obviously their feedback on our product. We are very careful always to balance the types of physicians. There are physicians who work in organizations like Mass General here in Boston that are highly specialized, highly academic focused, probably have a big focus on research and are really on the leading edge of novel innovative medical treatment paradigm versus many of our clients who are not that and who are just regular old community based hospitals that kind of deal with the general population and are not necessarily seeing the most […] but have to serve millions of consumers and patients who have very basic needs. We’re always careful to balance the type of physicians that we talk to and get feedback from across those various settings. We also, over time I would say, have taken a much more prescriptive approach with our customers around physician engagement. Certainly has to be the case from the first launch that we were tip-toeing around the clinical leadership and didn’t want to bother the folks who were kind of on the clinical frontline. That became a challenge for us to really configure and validate the data within our platform to make sure that we’re driving the right outcome. Now, fast forward many years later, we actually have as part of our implementation playbook a requirement to engage with the clinical side of the business. That was a hard cultural transition to make both internally and with our customers. But now that we have so much data which we can probably talk about but, we have data that shows the benefit of doing that. Not only just data but oftentimes qualitative narrative plays a big role and just getting people to buy into that paradigm. We pretty explicitly sort of I wouldn’t say forcefully but you know, it’s highly recommend to our customers that Kyruus is employed as part of the acquisition process and directly talks to physicians. We’ve taken a pretty hard line on that and it certainly benefited us. Brian: So like when they sign a deal, there’s actually something in the agreement about your right to access their providers to make the service work and that type of thing? Julie: Not contractual at all, it’s part of our implementation playbook is what I’ll call it. Where we lay out here are the four tracks of implementation that we need to accomplish and X number of months. One of them is just purely technical data integration, things of that sort. One might be how do we design our workflow, one might be around analytics and then one is actually physician engagement. It’s really just part of our implementation methodology. Just like almost kind of a consulting mindset. When you hire a consulting firm, they’ve got their recommended way of doing things and you sort of assume that in order to get the best outcomes, you want to follow their playbook. That’s kind of the approach that we’ve used with our acquisition process. Brian: I see. That’s really interesting. I like that idea of encouraging it from the outset as part of a product company. I think that’s a really great idea to bake into your product if you’re on premise deployment type of situation where there’s some kind of set up process and you guys obviously have to go through some level of customization probably with every new hospital network that you guys bring onboard. Julie: We like to say configuration, not customization. But yes, absolutely. Brian: Oh okay. And you mentioned analytics at the end. I actually did want to jump into that. So obviously if you guys are selling this product on—you’re almost like a market maker. You’re bringing supply and demand, you’re optimizing supply and demand. What type of data, or interfaces, or maybe it’s APIs of the hospital. But I imagine they want to know what their ROI is for purchasing these systems. Do you have some type of reporting or analytics dashboard that helps the administrator? Who would be those users and tell me what some of their use cases might be if you indeed have something like that. Julie: Absolutely. Analytics is critical to the value narrative and ROI of our products. We actually do have a webpage in our analytics product, provide and match analytics that comes with our platform. There’s a number of ways by which we deploy it. So first of all, a user, an end user who has the appropriate level of authorization can just log into their browser window and see the analytics dashboard at any point of any day. We’ve obviously optimized it. We have a set of canned reports that we offer out of the box to represent the KPIs that we’ve designed as the leading indicator for the different products that we have. That’s one major component of it. We have a framework where we think about three levels of analytics. One is what I call reflective analytic which is kind of the most basic reporting where we’re sort of almost leading back to the organization what kinds of activity are flowing through our products. It is literally demand and supply. Meaning how many requests for this kind of appointment came in in the last week and then bumping that up against your provider network supply side so to speak saying did you have a sufficient supply to serve that need and what kinds of gaps do you have in that network. That’s kind of the most basic reflective analytics. One level up from that is what we call impact metrics that say okay, of the 1,000 calls that you got for interpolation related services last week, what percentage of them converted into an actual booked appointment? What percentage didn’t convert and what was the outcome of those calls, why weren’t you able to serve those needs? How many new patients were you able to acquire through your web based find a physician application that’s powered by ProviderMatch and how many accomplished customers returns to you, were loyal to you by coming back to you and booking a follow-up appointment. So those are some of the types of impact metrics that are kind of a level up from that requested data but demonstrates some kind of business outcome that our product is associated with. And then the third tier is ROI, true ROI, financial ROI that says, okay, so relative to baseline historically before you can click ProviderMatch, you were able to utilize X percent of your scheduled resources. You had X number patient appointment that were booked in an X period of time of this distribution across primary care and specialty care. There’s actually a benchmark dollar amount that are out there that are well accepted that represents the top line value of each booked appointment. So maybe your specialist cases are worth $2,000 and your primary care is worth $1,000 multiply out the volume that have come through ProviderMatch relative to baseline and determine what did you get for the money that you invested in our product. That obviously is a bit of a holy grail where you’re able to demonstrate what did you get back for how much you spent on Kyruus and obviously if you are willing to invest more. Those are kind of the three levels that we describe. The first two tend to be really self service. You can log in to that web page dashboard, see it, believe it, move on. We have an account management team that has a more of a high touch engagement model with that third tier where we go to the C-level executive team essentially and present that back in an actual face to face meeting on a quarterly basis because there’s a tremendous amount of depth, obviously a tremendous amount of assumption and business context that you need to be wrapped around the presentation of that kind of data. We make sure that we’re doing that in a fairly high touch way versus some of our more self service analytics report. Brian: That’s really interesting about how you called it reflective analytics and kind of moves up the value chain almost in terms of being able to quantify ROI for the investment. Is there a way to tell whether or not any ends that… I totally get hospitals there’s a financial side to healthcare. Obviously it’s a huge financial part of healthcare but in terms of improving patient lives and quality of healthcare and all of that, is there any way to quantify or measure from your service that healthcare is improving or it is that kind of implied from assuming more booked appointments with more qualified. We assume they got better. Is there any way to that you guys can provide that insight or is it too difficult? Julie: Yeah, we have a couple of ways to think about it. First of all, clinical quality measurement is something that we as a society have yet to crack fully. There is no silver bullet. If anything, there are way too many quality standards out there and not yet what I would call a systematic standard for measuring the impact of a good intervention from a clinical quality lens. We look at it from one of two ways. One is definitely a derivative by way of getting you two different doctors at first time in a timely fashion, we’re avoiding A, just making sure that you’re getting the care that you need, first of all and B, if you were to not get that care at a timely manner typically […] the delayed care can have a very detrimental impact in terms of the overall health of the patient. That’s more kind of a derivative way of qualitative learning, one way to think about it. The actual thing that we are looking to quantify and measure and we actually have a couple of academic studies that we published on this topic that were a proof of concept of sorts, what needles we can move. A big part of what we focus on is focus. If you are an orthopedic surgeon and yes you’ve been trained in 40 different type of things and could technically see a lot of different type of patients, you actually might be best to see a certain handful of those things. Maybe five types of procedures that you’re sort of more uniquely qualified to focus on. If you’re not using a system like ProviderMatch, let’s say that you’ll get referred something from that bigger bucket is pretty hard because you booked the orthopedic surgeon. They assume that you can see any of these type of cases and they end up getting pretty varied spectrum of a type of referral. By way of using ProviderMatch, we’re able to deterministically narrow the focus of what gets sent to that physician. There are many studies that show two things. One is if a physician has more experience around a certain procedure type, then they tend to be better in terms of outcome, mortality and morbidity than physicians with less experience, kind of the Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 iteration type rule. So lots of studies show that. The second thing is let’s say you and I, Brian, are both orthopedic surgeons and I do 50 hip replacement surgeries a year. That’s my practice but you do 80 hip replacement surgeries a year but you also do 30 knee replacements and 20 of some other type of procedure. Even though you do more hip replacements than me, the data shows that I’m still going to be the higher quality surgeon because I’m focused on just that procedure. That’s what is our clinical holy grail we call it where through the use of ProviderMatch, we demonstrate that we are allowing physicians to not only drive volume around certain areas but also focus more specifically on the areas that they are uniquely qualified to serve and therefore drive better outcomes. Brian: I could see how you guys could derive that. Someone’s spending all of their time doing their kind of specialization area obviously. They’re probably building more expertise on that. Do you have any advice for other product managers of data products or analytics practitioners in terms of leveraging design to bring more value to your own business, your organization, your customers. Have you seen any positive change that’s come out of a particular design activity that you might have done that you’re like, “I would fully recommend doing this,” or, “I think that’s a really good fit for the product.” Any comments on that? Julie: Sure. I think there’s obviously tons of topics like the ones that I described that you can certainly use on a day-to-day to do design and kind of execute the process. But I think the more global statement I would make is that your focus on design has to be genuine and the only thing […] as the founding head of product, I’ve always looked at design as a critical element of why our product is going to be differentiated and more successful in the market. Part of how I know that that worked out and then played out is that our customers, we do an NPS survey with our customers periodically. The number of comments that we get back that say, “Your solution is the easiest to use that we’ve ever used in this area.” “The design is so simple. That’s what gets us to use the product and stay using the product.” We get that kind of feedback every day. I think oftentimes, I talk to a bunch of product leaders so technically there’s other companies. If that’s not coming from the top, if that’s not a genuine thing and a belief that the person at the top of the totem pole doesn’t have, then I think oftentimes design becomes something that […] and it’s harder in that scenario to make design not just an element of what’s being done but really a core part of the engineering process. That’s kind of the advice I would give. Design shouldn’t be another thing, it should be part of the actual engineering process. Easier said than done but literally, if we think about our teams and how we design some teams in addition to having obviously your engineers, your POs, your project managers, your medreps, a design lead is a required element at each of those teams. That makes it a sticky and fundamental part of the day-to-day process versus someone who calls in as a consultant. Oftentimes after the fact which is kind of the […] after a lot of the fundamental thinking has already been done versus having that person be just part of that core team that’s doing the thinking from day one. That’s kind of how it’s played out with that. That said, I would say it’s a constant struggle when you’re an organization that’s growing rapidly, that has limited resources that has 100 priorities, making sure that you are always emphasizing the value of design which is sometimes very hard to measure in quantitative terms. It’s always a challenge. But I think if you do have a leader who believes in the power of design and that you have properties that make it a core component of how you execute, that you’re much better set up to do that than otherwise. Brian: Yeah. I think there’s some good stuff there. Most of the clients that I work with, you can usually tell from the investment and enthusiasm and importance that’s placed on the discipline at the top how well it’s going to impact, or how much if at all it’s going to impact even if they have a large amount of staff if those staff aren’t properly engaged in the process, they’re not inserted at the right time, they’re not working upstream with business stakeholders to kind of… I always see this, helping to visualize and put the right experience in to reflect the intent of the product manager and the business. It’s the execution, even though it’s a strategic role in a way, it’s executing that vision for engineering so that they build the right stuff. If they’re not deployed properly, then at best, you’re back to maybe painting the pick or doing kind of surface level changes and that can then obviously trick all the way down to your downstream stakeholder like the data that comes out the other end and how useful are those analytics about ROI and stuff at the end. I think some people in the analytics space are still kind of learning. I kind of get this feeling in the data and analytics industry that we talk about data visualization a lot but not necessarily about user experience and what the ROI that good design can bring. You tend to talk about just UI level details but not necessarily the strategic side of aligning the products from the needs of the users and the business to kind of get both of those positive outcomes. Because obviously, if the business is successful, you can then pump more money back into investing in a better product and experience. It’s kind of a win-win for everyone if you have that buy in from the top. Julie: Yeah, exactly. We have the benefit of selling into typically what’s labeled as patient experience budget. More and more health systems these days are realizing that historically they’ve been super optimized for physicians. If you look at the example that I always use is if you go to any traditional hospital website that’s not using a product like ProviderMatch, the first question that they typically ask you as a patient is what department do you need to see and how are you as a consumer supposed to know whether or not you’re supposed to go to cardiology versus pulmonology versus neurology. It’s kind of ridiculous that we put that burden on the patient. Now, organizations are really thinking we can’t do that anymore. We can’t get away with that, consumers expect more because of the bar that has been raised during their experiences in other industries. For better or for worse we always say, “Why is it so easy to book a multi-leg international complex flight using just my thumb and 30 seconds on a mobile app, but it’s so hard to get a primary care doctor appointment in healthcare? “That’s something that our customers are recognizing. Because of that, everyone in our company has had some experience with that. We all have empathy with what difficulty and challenge exist around historical software booking process. That’s really where… it’s not coming out of like what are the pixels and what color are the buttons and what does the UI look like but what does that entire experience that can be emotional and you might have some diagnosis and some crazy disease and be fearful and anxious while you’re going through the experience. We always try to coach our team to remember what it’s like to be on the outside of the table when you’re […] your workflow and whatnot. But yeah, we again have the benefit of being in a space that I think everyone understands and has to some extent experience. You know the bad side of what does it feel like if it’s done poorly so that there’s a lot more kind of fundamental motivation at a higher level than just the UI. Brian: Yeah. You guys have that benefit. I think a lot of people probably don’t get that as much where it’s almost like you’re developing a consumer product in that sense where you can relate them. Like what movie should I go see and checkout and what theatres do I pick and all of that with the whole staff. Everyone at some point is going to go see a doctor so you can empathize with the scheduling process. For listeners that aren’t in that situation where maybe you’re working on something very esoteric or maybe it’s a complete B2B thing where your staff haven’t worked in that industry and don’t know that pain, it’s even more important to go get that one-on-one face time. Especially getting your engineers and designers to talk to these people and kind of start to develop that empathy. It really can change the way they approach their work. That’s cool that you guys are in that space where everyone can probably relate to the pain of the hassle around picking […]. I hate that stuff when it’s like, “Go talk to this department.” I don’t care what department it’s in, I just need to get this thing done and I want to know what the results were of this test and I don’t know who to call, it’s your problem. Julie: Exactly. Brian: Well, cool. This has been super fun. It’s been great to catch up with you and hear what you guys are doing at Kyruus. Can you tell people where they can learn more about you and what you guys are doing? Julie: Absolutely. We’ve got a great website with a ton of resources and videos and white papers and case studies and what not around what we do as a company, kyruus.com. We have a pretty big presence on social, on Twitter, on Facebook, on LinkedIn. Follow us there. And then me personally, I think Twitter is probably the best place for folks to follow along with what I’m up to. I’m @julesyoo on Twitter. Brian: All right, I’ll put that in the show notes, the link to your Twitter account and also over to Kyruus. Julie, thanks for coming on the show. It’s been great to catch up with you and I hope we get to cross paths soon. Julie: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Brian. It was good to chat.

Hello and welcome to episode 35 of HCS Pro Talk! This week, we got a LOT of rosters to go over, Will and I played through Fireteam Raven, and there a plenty of news stories to cover. Along with the Gamebattles 2K tournaments, the Pro Battle League season 3 keeps going strong as we have a ton of series to cover. For the main topic of this episode, we discuss why organizations are leaving competitive Halo. Oh yeah, and you get a little Josh ranty rant somewhere in this episode. Thank you for the listening and as always, links to everything that is talked about in the episode is below for your viewing pleasure, along with timestamps for the first time! Jacksonville https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4YcrVmPTcE Timestamps RosterMainia 2:05 Wills Adventures within the Haloverse/Fireteam Raven 12:14 News 25:03 News (competitive) 31:38 News (PBL) 33:44 Scrims 43:37 Tournaments 46:47 Main Topic 56:53 Shoutouts and more 1:22:04 Roster Mania! LATAM Mini Magics Noble Scyler MagicButtons Atzo CL Esports Bullet Desecrates BMXCARLOGAMBINO Legolaz New Team Method Vystrel Proxxys Member XX Angsuka LilSayayin Lofty Deidara Tactical V2 MyName Carpe RDEspace Murder Nexus New Roster Lord Plancarte Endels Dybala Express ExcessiveNinja Liiah Iraul Kanade Assassins of Gods Cabo Tola LaloSaulHudson Loqi Australia/New Zealand Esto Reaver Kill Switch Venom Inferno TeaEssDub YungWilcox Jimbob Monza Bald Yes Daddy Deth Square OhGraham Alejo Colt Mafoka AtzoQ Matron KillerDad Jingle EU WeVicious Censure Dezire Outkaste DeadeyeFred Niel the Doctor Alexeer Ninjaaaaaaaa TheWarriorONiel Rudimentary North America LuxGaming (IS FUCKING BACK!) SickStory Boamx Valkyrie Ryno Pro Battle League St. Louis Sentinels Information coming next week Columbus Origin Information coming next week Nashville Outlaws Gold Star BR Vetra Josue BobettaFetta Dream Rival Kansas City Lightning Bunnies Waddles Vulcan Hclic PopeBum Austin Royals Rammy Munoz Galaxy SnxwNinja Dallas Stampede In Reality Mist Ninjitsu Dynamics Just Improve Spinks Jinx Article Boamx Orlando Force Swish Dallay Common Pilez New York Titans Danoxide Eccentrikk Rob The Turtle Obnoxiuz Toronto Sabres Kourages Primacy Stress Xman San Jose Edge Dark Scorch LD50 Negative PeanutButter Philadelphia Forge Jesse Siao Slinky Sorrell SuperCC Denver Rangers Cratos Naded Not a Monk Suspector Houston Vipers Claytron Mauler Knedlz Mynx Titann DMV Knights Agent Menke Jaxx Ryno Cortex Minnesota Predators Floppie HerSideGuysBack MKoski88 Veronikuhhh Anaheim Pirates Str8 Sick TuSick Commonly Steady Might Alberta Bears Haloette SilosTheVillain Chilled Zai7sev Wills Adventures Within the Haloverse Time to see if Will played more Halo?!?!? Halo: Fireteam Raven thoughts and impressions Trevor’s Thoughts First of all, had a lot of fun. I enjoyed the action, non stop, the visuals, and the moments with master Chief. I wish the music was a little louder, or there was a way to drown out the exterior noise. Gameplay wise,  my gun and reticle we're very unsynced, felt way behind, not sure if everyone else had that problem. Also, sometimes hard to tell which character is attacking you, especially with banshees. The turrets and rocket parts were my favorite, reloading wasn't that fun or intuitive imo. It was a good length, and not terribly expensive. Though I haven't played an arcade game in a long time. I enjoyed it overall, just a few issues, but a lot of fun overall. Too bad the link to waypoint account didn't work. Dom’s Thoughts I wish the QR code reader would've worked to track stats and wished the sound was a bit better as I couldn't hear the dialog much. Could've been due to being in a Dave and Busters, but I haven't had that issue playing something like Time Crisis. Time Crisis isn't even in a capsule either! Speaking of odd things, why they chose purple as a character color is beyond me. It was hard to spot my reticle at times when your fighting the purple covenant. Minor complaint, but still an odd choice considering all the colors they could've chose. Gameplay wise, the plasma pistol section of the game was puzzling. Nobody wants to nor enjoys maining with that gun and it's not really a gun meant for arcade shooters. I only use it to be a dbag online for easy kills and even then, I got a BR to use to get the kill. Otherwise I used it in Halo 2 Legendary campaign a lot. I was fine with the rest of the guns in all honesty. Game got repetitive and dull I'd say between the 3rd and 4th mission. Yes it's a rail shooter, but that's why you put in some good boss battles.This games big boss battles were big hunters, big flood, and a scarab at the end. Meh, meh, yay. And the yay part I've done many times in the other halo games. I mean, I have a rocket launcher with unlimited ammo and a shotgun that shoots like the Spas-12, couldn't we come up with some cooler things to fight too? Weapons were great aside from the plasma pistol. Rocket Launcher made me feel like a bad ass, shotgun was great, and then that turreted, grenade launcher thing at the end as awesome too. Grenades didn't really feel like grenades though. They feel more like a grenade launcher. I say that as it didn't really arc at all and they threw out very quickly as if it shot from a grenade launcher. Master Chief should've learned from Raven Team on how to throw a grenade. Oh and the grunts were way too spongey Congratulations to OG on their TI8 win! News The Making of Halo: Fireteam Raven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynacIJU2h_w Halo MCC Xbox One X Enhancement Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdCKXQ3R3d0 Halo: Silent Storm Excerpt - By Steve Downes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL8tRXQWlTw Forerunner Slayer Out Now Within Halo 5 https://twitter.com/Halo/status/1032679534670143488 Halo Community Spotlight https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/spotlight-august-23-2018 Official Halo Discord Out Now http://discord.gg/Halo Halo MCC Coming to Game Pass on September 1st Including New Update https://twitter.com/Halo/status/1031932355584245760 Halo MCC Update Out Now https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/mcc-update News (Competitive) HCS London 2018 Qualified Teams NA Splyce TOX Renegades Reciprocity Trifecta Excelerate Gaming EU Lucid Invictus Radiant Esports Mock-It ANZ Athletico LATAM Berserker Esports HCS London Pool Draw Scheduled for September 4th https://twitter.com/HCS/status/1032724502235369472 Microsoft Store 4v4 Tournaments Scheduled for September 9th https://twitter.com/HCS/status/1032764924236312587 Saint Boswell H3 MLG Settings 2v2 Tournament Announcement - September 2nd https://twitter.com/SaintBoswell/status/1032014824870424576 KMadiffy H3 2v2 Tournament Announcement - September 16th https://twitter.com/Sundaaayz/status/1032156370642984960 Pro Battle League News Roster Lock Set for September 2nd Controversy - Some ‘Pro’ players allowed and what that means for other competitors? Scrim Recap Tuesday, August 21st TOX VS Renegades Series Score 8-7 - TOX Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11898 TOX had one more kill Renegades had 15 more assists TOX had 9 less deaths TOX had 8 more power kills Renegades had 17 more precision kills Renegades had 14 more magnum kills Wednesday, August 22nd Reciprocity VS Excelerate Gaming Series Score 11-3 - Reciprocity Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11899 Thursday, August 23rd Renegades VS Trifecta Series Score 7-0 - Renegades Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11900 Invictus VS Radiant Esports Series Score 12-2 - Invictus Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11902 TOX VS Reciprocity Series Score 9-6 - TOX Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11904 TOX had 12 more kills Reciprocity had 10 more assists TOX had 14 less deaths TOX had 3 more power kills Reciprocity had 10 more precision kills Reciprocity had 14 more magnum kills Friday, August 24th Excelerate Gaming VS Veggies Series Score 10-5 - Excelerate Gaming Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11905 Veggies had 7 more kills Veggies had 41 more assists Veggies had 7 less deaths Excelerate had 26 more power kills Veggies had 13 more precision kills Veggies had 36 more magnum kills Every game was very close but it just appears as though Excelerate were able to close out more than Veggies. TOX VS Elevate Series Score 14-1 - TOX Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11906 Monday, August 27th Invictus VS Mock-it Series Score 10-5 - Invictus Stats - http://halodatahive.com/Scrim/Summary/11915 Tournament Recap Nadestraight Sunday Showdown Halo 5 2v2 Tournament Recap 1st Place Sonny LG SLG Frager 2nd Place Connection ShabbyDagger Shaadyzer Bracket https://bit.ly/2NlCHhC VOD https://www.twitch.tv/nadestraight/video/302150478 The Beach LAN 7 Halo: CE 2v2 Tournament Recap 1st Place JoDick 2nd Place Goats 3rd Place WordBoy Bracket https://challonge.com/dvdyz39u VOD’s https://www.twitch.tv/beachlan Pro Battle League Season 3 Week 1 Results Toronto Sabres VS St. Louis Sentinels Information coming next week Chicago United VS Columbus Origin Information coming next week Nashville Outlaws VS Kansas City Lightning Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-32 - Nashville Game 2 - CTF on Truth 3-0 - Nashville Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-17 - Nashville Series Score 3-0 - Nashville VOD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA0L6RwUwQw Austin Royals VS Dallas Stampede Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-46 - Dallas Game 2 - CTF on Truth 2-1 - Dallas Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-36 - Austin Game 4 - Oddball on Eden 150-139 - Dallas Series Score 3-1 - Dallas VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=50931027 Orlando Force VS New York Titans Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-39 - New York Game 2 - CTF on Truth 3-1 - Orlando Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-55 - New York Game 4 - Oddball on Eden 150-80 - New York Series Score 3-1 - New York VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=50931027 San Jose Edge VS Anaheim Pirates Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-44 - Anaheim Game 2 - CTF on Truth 2-1 - Anaheim Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-16 - San Jose Game 4 - Oddball on Eden (after two resets) 150-121 - Anaheim Series Score 3-1 - Anaheim VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=50952777 Philadelphia Forge VS Orlando Force Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-32 - Philadelphia Game 2 - CTF on Truth 3-1 - Philadelphia Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-96 - Orlando Game 4 - Oddball on Eden (after two resets) 150-124 - Orlando Game 5 - Slayer on Coliseum 46-45 - Philadelphia Series Score 3-2 - Philadelphia VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51299175 Denver Rangers VS Dallas Stampede Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-45 - Denver Game 2 - CTF on Truth 3-1 - Denver Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-82 - Denver Series Score 3-0 - Denver VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51299175 https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51307854 Dallas Stampede VS Houston Vipers Game 1 - Slayer on The Rig 50-38 - Dallas Game 2 - CTF on Truth 3-0 - Dallas Game 3 - Strongholds on Empire 100-17 - Dallas Series Score 3-0 - Dallas VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51307854 Pro Battle League Season 3 Week 2 Results DMV Knights VS Philadelphia Forge Game 1 - CTF on Coliseum 3-1 - DMV Game 2 - Slayer on Plaza 50-32 - DMV Game 3 - Strongholds on The Rig 100-45 - DMV Series Score 3-0 - DMV VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51929397 Denver Rangers VS Nashville Outlaws Game 1 - CTF on Coliseum 3-0 - Denver Game 2 - Slayer on Plaza 50-48 - Nashville Game 3 - Strongholds on The Rig 100-37 - Denver Game 4 - CTF on Truth 3-0 - Denver Series Score 3-1 - Denver VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51929397 Minnesota Predators VS Toronto Sabres Game 1 - CTF on Coliseum 3-1 - Toronto Game 2 - Slayer on Plaza 50-40 - Toronto Game 3 - Strongholds on The Rig 100-99 - Toronto Series Score 3-0 - Toronto VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51929397 Alberta Bears VS Anaheim Pirates Game 1 - CTF on Coliseum 3-0 - Anaheim Game 2 - Slayer on Plaza 50-19 - Anaheim Game 3 - Strongholds on The Rig 100-3 - Anaheim Series Score 3-0 - Anaheim VOD https://mixer.com/PBLHalo?vod=51929397 LATAM Gamebattles 2K Tournament Recap 1st Place Mini Magics $350 2000 Points 2nd Place CL Esports $150 1200 Points 3rd/4th New Team XX 800 Points 5th/6th/7th/8th Tactical V2 Nexus New Roster Express Assassins of Gods 600 Points Bracket - https://bit.ly/2P9pWHs ANZ Gamebattles 2K Tournament Recap 1st Place Athletico $500 2000 Points 2nd Place CentreLink Gaming $250 1200 Points 3rd/4th TeaEssDub Yes Daddy 800 Points 5th/6th Esto Osprey Gaming Colt Mafoka 600 Points Bracket - https://bit.ly/2wosyJV EU Gamebattles 2K Tournament Recap 1st Place Sigh - Halo 5 (Lucid Gaming) $750 2000 Points 2nd Place SSSQ $250 1200 Points 3rd/4th MockIt Radiant 800 Points 5th/6th/7th/8th Niel The Doctor Invalid Esports WeVicious SkitLite 600 Points Bracket - https://bit.ly/2PAhi5M NA Gamebattles 2K Tournament Recap 1st Place Reciprocity $1,500 2000 Points 2nd Place TOX $500 1200 Points 3rd/4th Renegades Excelerate 800 Points 5th/6th/7th/8th Trifecta Elevate Str8 Rippin Mentality 600 Points Bracket - https://bit.ly/2wpBnD7 Why Are Orgs Leaving Halo? - The Results Community Thoughts Sander I think Halo esports could be big if it was played on pc. Viewership should be a lot higher, I think Halo 5 is very fun to watch and the money is also not to bad. Not enough events, online and offline, look at COD for example, that’s way more interesting. And nobody’s knows what’s happing next year. TS LocoElephante I wish it was halo 2/3 days. but ever since reach, the franchise has been going downhill. with 343 not outwardly seeming to be all in with their commitment to the community and past balancing issues, I can't see why any org would want to take the risk/part in an unknown. Alejandro Pena Sadly Halo doesn't have the reach *pun not intended* it had before. Orgs are there because of advertising money Night Fox Major orgs: The payout/amount of good teams are hard to break into because of buyouts. Plus viewership is pretty low compared to the other big Esports. Minor orgs: They are mostly “orgs” by name and therefore don’t have a lot of money backing them in the first place Also to note: some orgs that leave were fraudulent orgs TLock It just baffles me. Halo had the 2nd biggest payout of money last year for console eSports. Only behind CoD. Halo is now 3rd behind CoD and FIFA. Using this tweet for the info. It also doesn’t help that there’s no “regular season” and barely anything mentioning tournament updates and/or roster announcements from each org on the HCS Twitter. It’s like they reluctantly tweet out out stuff if they get called out. I know Tashi’s heart is in it but can’t same for the other organizers. Seems like every other weekend there’s a cod tourney. Takes 2 months for “consecutive” Halo tourneys. https://twitter.com/Moses_FPS/status/1019733397059588097 ScudPuddle My opinion, I really don’t pay attention to the orgs. Players are constantly changing and it’s hard to have loyalty to an org if your watching from the fringe. I like players, and they just happen to be playing for the same org most of the time. Look at TOX for example, people loved them when they were CLG. When Optic took them over, people didn’t stop cheering for them because they had loyalty to CLG. And people who liked the old optic roster didn’t stop cheering for LOL who eventually became Str8.Then again when Optic left Halo, fans didn’t stop liking the roster.It’s hard to have a loyalty whenever things aren’t regionalized. I like what the PBL is doing with that. But unfortunately, it’s for a game that’s going on 3 years with little innovation from the developer. Brian aka BrianMakesGames I'd be curious to know if Gears of War and Call of Duty see the same situation happening with orgs in their spheres. It'd be cool if we could reach out to a representative from the gears community (maybe a caster?) for comment on this. Also if someone from an org would comment too. Instead of speculation (though the discussion is great) we could maybe get some actual answers. Conversation between Brian and Maze (CEO of Noble Esports) Maze is the CEO of Noble eSports. They currently sponsor teams/players in Rainbow 6: Siege, PUBG, H1Z1, Forza, Madden, Injustice 2, Smash Wii-U, and mroe. They also sponsor a "twitch stream team."  Here is their halo eSports page: https://halo.esportspedia.com/Noble_eSports Maze: "Our owner started Noble with a Halo team so he was always connected to the scene. But as an org, there are a bunch of scenes that aren't marketable or valuable business-wise. Halo is a thing of the past to most sponsors/investors eyes so they rather explore new options. Viewership was at a critical state for the new game and it was due to the "optic" effect. That's meaning once optic gaming was out of the tourney then viewers dropped dramatically." Brian: "So despite Halo 5 having $1.4m in prize money across 16 tournaments for only 82 players in 2018 (2nd highest prize pool for console eSports only behind FIFA with $1.7m and nearly 3x the players), there's not enough viewership to justify things for an org?" Maze: "Yeah and another reason is that the player base is not ideal to work with, demanding large salaries without a good ROI%, they have comparatively minimal streaming metrics, social media impressions, etc. Halo adapted the COD mentality unfortunately. Expect the world but don't look at it as a business opportunity through both sides. It's been gimme gimme instead of something that makes sense for the player and the org." Brian: "Meaning that halo and players expect too much of the orgs without helping? What's an example of a game/company that does this well?" Maze: "Halo players want salary without giving back a return of prize winnings, but they don't create content [Youtube, twitter, twitch, etc.] and barely support sponsors of brands. Also fucking roster changes lol." Brian: "Yeah...roster changes seem like a nightmare from a business perspective." Maze: "We almost went back into Halo 8 months ago. But were like, it doesn't make sense for us to. My opinion on how to make that scene better: less events will bring higher viewership and minimize roster changes. For example, Madden this year has only 4 offline open events and the rest are online ladders to qualify to play offline. Same prize money as Halo with minimal risk for orgs plus NFL exposure for brands/sponsors/orgs. Now a days it is about metrics more than placements -- that's how sponsors gauge their interests. Winning is great but only one team wins." Our Thoughts Shoutouts Everyone at Pro Battle League for having to deal with a lot of negativity in the space and for handling it in spades. Everyone who shines a positive light out there. Be good to one another. Community Creations Marty O’Donnell - Halo 2 Soundtrack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUUa112HA78&feature=youtu.be Meme Monday https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/ Vetoed Stream Highlights #5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_H-GaRc-c8 Cyberpunk Gameplay Demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euqbMkM-QQk Plugs Podcast Services (just search for HCS Pro Talk) iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hcs-pro-talk/id1330849607?mt=2) Leave us a review and let others know about the show! 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If you own a tablet or iPad, you've probably shopped for a case for it. And if you bought a case for it, did you ever run across beautiful leather cases that looked like books? If so, you and I have the same taste. Pad & Quill makes those luxurious cases. Our guest today is Brian Holmes, President, and owner of Pad & Quill. He started the business in 2010 with his wife, Kari. It was a desire to create exceptionally crafted luxury accessories (rather than profits) that motivated Holmes when he chose to start the business with a budget of just over $1,000. Pad and Quill is the tale of a shop formed with bookbinders, carpenters, a painter and a working mom coming together to create beautiful handmade iPad/iPhone cases, leather bags, and other dry goods. In this episode, we dive into his seven-year journey in ecommerce and discover what he's learned along the way. — Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast via Email Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast on iTunes Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast on Stitcher Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast via RSS Join The Unofficial Shopify Podcast Facebook Group Work with Kurt — Learn: How Pad & Quill got started Their direct approach to launching the brand Why you should embrace your passion The advantage of lifetime warranties How to Brian pitches the press The golden rule that governs Brian's marketing Why he moved from Magento to Shopify Plus And his advice for entrepreneurs Links Mentioned: PadAndQuill - Use coupon code BHAPPY10 to get 10% off any product Shopify Plus Free Guide I want to send you a sample chapter of Ecommerce Bootcamp, absolutely free. Tell me where to send your sample at ecommerce-bootcamp.com Transcript Kurt: Hello, and welcome back to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast. I'm your host, Kurt Elster, recording from Ethercycle headquarters; about 10 minutes from O'Hare Airport, if you're familiar. And today I'm talking to a wonderful, seven year-old eCommerce store owner. Well, the store is seven years old. The owner is not seven years old, I should say, I should be specific. But we've got this app called Crowdfunder, and it's not the easiest thing to install if you're not familiar with HTML. So people ask me, "Hey Kurt, can you install this thing for me?" And I say, "Yes, of course." And in doing that, I always get to check out some interesting stores. And in this case, I said, gee this seems ... I was looking at a store, it was called Pad & Quill, and I thought, this seems awfully familiar. So I went and I searched through my email, and sure enough, I had bought an iPad case from Pad & Quill in 2011. So I reached out, and I acted like, this seemed familiar because it is familiar; I used to have your case on my first gen iPad, and I would love to hear your story. This looks like a fascinating brand, they were in the process of moving to Shopify Plus. So I wanted to hear that story. So joining me today, is Brian Holmes, who is the President/Owner of Pad & Quill. He started in 2010 with his wife, Kari. Prior to running Pad & Quill, he's a Tradesman for over 16 years; we'll find out in what. He and Kari have been married for almost 27 years. Congratulations! It is so much easier to do this with a supportive family, and doing it with family helps. But Brian, thank you for joining us. Brian: Kurt, thank you for having us on. I appreciate it, having me on. My only question is, you've only boughten one case since 2011, Kurt. What's goin on? Kurt: (laughs) Let's see, I had- Brian: (laughs) Kurt: So for the longest time I just had the standard iPad case on there. And then one of my kids dropped it on the kitchen tile floor like two or three years ago, and we have not had an iPad since. Someday. Brian: Ah. Kurt: Someday I'll get around to buying another iPad. Brian: Yes. Well, you're right I'm not seven years old, I'm almost 50, but I've been doing this for seven years. That is correct. Kurt: Very good. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: For our listeners, what is Pad & Quill? Brian: So, Pad & Quill is a, we are a luxury accessory maker. So we design and craft luxury goods for tech and play. That's kinda what we like to say. They're durable goods. They're artisan made. Those four words are very important to us. We don't wanna make anything that is going to fade away within a year and breakdown, et cetera. So all of our products come with longer warranties, and we want them to be very well made, as far as what we call good art. So when we make a product, to us, it should be both beautiful and functional. Cause you can have a lot of products out there that are really nice to look at, but they don't last, or they're really, really functional, but they're just ugly. So what we're trying to do is create these kind of beautiful leather bags, iPad cases, MacBook cases, things like that, that are unique, but also provide a function, provide a utility and are durable. They last a long time. So that's kinda been our focus. We're a typical company, that when we started, we started one place, and ended up somewhere else. That's very common in startup stories, that the products you started with aren't always the products you end up making five years later. Kurt: So somewhere along your line you had to pivot. Going back to the beginning, how did you start Pad & Quill? Brian: Yeah. Kurt: And what was your first product? Brian: Yeah. So we started with $1,200, and I- Kurt: Very good. Brian: I painted my web designer's deck. Kurt: (laughs) Brian: She painted it ... She still works with us, she's still a consultant, Kathy. She made our website. She coded it on ... I can't even remember where it was coded, what platform; think it was WordPress. And we started an original ... She built it all, all I knew is that I had seen a product out in San Francisco by a company called DODOcase. Kurt: DODOcase, another Shopify store. Brian: Yeah, they made a wood and book case, and I saw what they were doing. And I thought, my word, we could do this, but we could more than what they're doing. We could do, like, MacBook cases, and iPhone cases, and all kinds of stuff. So that kinda was the inspiration. So we took the $1,200, I paid a photographer far less than he deserved; he still works with me today. Now he's making money, but he knew we didn't have a lot so he gave me a deal. We built four prototypes, and we put up the site, it was in late June of 2010, and just started reaching out to the press saying, "Hey, we've got these products. They're on pre-order, they'll deliver in six weeks." You know, basically, help us fund this, in many ways. Reached out to everyone you could think of. Some Wired, I was talking to Walt Mossberg at The Wall Street Journal, who turned me down, of course. Kurt: (laughs) Brian: But what happened was, we got picked up by a couple people. So Gadget Lab picked us up at Wired, and then someone at Gizmodo wrote about us; and it started to pick up. Sales started coming in, and what had happened is, it was really born of not an idea that I had been thinking about. It was born out of a passion of a product I already saw, that I liked, which was the iPad and then the book bindery style case. And it just, kinda like, came together one evening. I was just like, "Wait a minute, we could do this. And we could do this better." You know, cause typical entrepreneurs think they can always do it better. So I was thinking, we can do this better, or different. Kurt: So when you saw that original DODOcase- Brian: Yeah. Kurt: You saw an iPad, [inaudible 00:05:50] and you saw ... And at that time, that was very early; I don't know if that was the first gen or second gen iPad at that point. Brian: First gen, first gen. Kurt: First gen, okay. So very early on. When you first held an iPad, it did have kind of a magical quality to it, where it's like, it's just this big, solid glass display that I can poke at. Brian: Right. Kurt: And at that time, apps had really ... Like, a lot of them had these very novel interfaces; it was pretty exciting. Brian: It was. Kurt: Back six years ago, it seems like forever ago, and now we don't think twice about it. But it was exciting. And then you had seen, you're right, DODOcase in San Francisco who was using traditional book ... Really, I mean, they were making cases using just traditional book binding- Brian: Techniques, yeah. Kurt: Techniques. Brian: Yep. Kurt: And you're right, in the typical, the entrepreneurial mindset, you said, "I love both of these. Why can't I do this? Why not me?" Brian: Yeah. Kurt: That's often how businesses start. Why not me? Brian: Yeah, and it didn't have, necessarily, a logic behind it. It had an opportunity, is what was seen. But here's the interesting thing, what happened was, is that as Kari and I started working on these products, all of a sudden there was something that connected for both of us; which was, these devices by Apple are beautifully designed, made of aluminum and glass, steel, gorgeous, gorgeous finishes, but they lacked warmth. Kurt: Yeah, they're ultra modern, which- Brian: Yeah, they're ultra modern Kurt: Can often make them feel cold. Brian: Which is fine, but we love, and that's a huge passion of ours, is that we love traditional materials. So it wasn't just book bindery, and that's why after the first two years of selling I ... I mean, we shipped about 3,000 iPad cases out of my basement window- Kurt: Hmm Brian: In the first nine months of the business. So what we were doing is we were having a bindery in Minneapolis make the books. And we were having a CNC Maker make the wood, and they were putting it together for us. And then we would take it to our basement and do some finishing touches, and ship them. So, we continued our press push. We constantly were reaching out to the press, coming out with new products. So we were in a never-ending cycle of creating new things. So we created a book-style case for a MacBook Air, which was very unique to the market, and that got us a lot of pickup. We just kept working through all these different products. We did stuff for the Kindle, at that time. This again, back in 2010 when the Kindle was pretty popular. Yeah, and then after about 3,000 or 4,000 products, my wife was like, "I want the basement back." Kurt: (laughs) Brian: So that's pretty much what happened. So we found a spot in Northeast Minneapolis, which is kind of an arts community area of Minneapolis, in downtown. We found a little spot there, and that's where we've been since. So, we've been there since I think May of 2011. Kurt: Did you, at all, have a background in business, entrepreneurship, manufacturing? Did you have any unfair advantage or skills that you think played a part in the success? Or at least, did you just have so much hubris you said, "You know, I think I could do this and then figure it out." Brian: Yeah, it's interesting you said unfair, cause that's an interesting term; that it's unfair. I mean, I know what you mean, like did I have something that I could leverage, that other people wouldn't typically have. Here's the thing, I had been a painting contractor. So I had done wall painting, like, house painting. I'd done that for 16 years. We had four kids. I didn't wanna be a painter for the rest of my life. And then the last five years of my trades work, and this was my own company, and I had a couple guys working for me, we were pretty small. In the last five years, I got into more artistic designs. So I was doing a lot of artisan finishes on walls and design work. Kurt: Like French plaster, and that kinda thing. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: Okay. Brian: Exactly. Kurt: Cool. Brian: And Venetian plasters, all that stuff. And what was interesting was, I really enjoyed that part of it. I, then, got my four year degree. In those last five years, I got my four year degree at night, in Psychology, ironically. I had never finished my four year. I went and got it, never used it. Think I decided at the end of my Psychology degree that I couldn't listen to people that long. Kurt: (laughs) Brian: So I ended up not doing anything with that, but I took a job with a small tech startup; cause I wanted to get out of painting. I didn't feel like I was using my skills the way I wanted to. So I took a risk and jumped into a small startup, which failed. It failed in about 18 months. It was a tech startup with a guy here locally, he was an inventor. It went poorly. What happened was, is that, the idea for Pad & Quill, the idea for me ... Like, I didn't have any manufacturing background. But my time, those 18 months in that startup, taught me almost a Master's level about here's how you'd operationalize a product; here's all the things you would need to make a product happen. And so, I think Pad & Quill was kinda like, a culmination of multiple life experience; running a painting company, being part of a small startup. It just kinda all came together, and I thought I could do this, and here's how I'd do it. And as I've moved further away, I'm realizing I love design. You know, I have no background in actual design. I have no background in product design. It was very much self-taught, but it's following ... I'm good at reading what people want to see in the markets, and then kind of taking it and putting my own flavor to it. Kurt: Okay. So early on you started with, it starts with your passion, and it sounds like you have a passion for product design, which is great. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: It's so much easier to run a business when it's exciting to you, versus I'm just going to do this because it will sell. That's such a struggle; and some people have the discipline to do it. I think it just makes life harder. Brian: It does. Kurt: Certainly easier if you enjoy the product. So you created this ... How many products did you launch with, like, within the first 12 months? Brian: Two. Oh, in 12 months, probably- Kurt: So you started with two. Brian: Started with two, and then we added some Kindle, and then some MacBook products. So they- Kurt: And they're all variations on ... They're essentially the same product in different form factors. Brian: Exactly. It was the same product on the same theme. So then, in 2011, the iPad 2 came out, so that was a big lift for us; and we became a competitor to DODOcase. And there was another company, I believe called Portenzo, out there at the time; and Treegloo. There was a few other competitors doing what we were doing. But here's what happened, and this was a huge shift for us, in 2012, so I'm a good two years in, I was noticing that these books were falling apart. So what was happening is, these books were made in traditional book bindery techniques, using really good book material; but they were falling apart. And I was like, they look beautiful, but they don't last. And I was realizing this is a ... You know, people love our product, they love our design, but I don't love that they don't last. And if you're cynical you could say, well that just means people will come back and buy another one. And my comment to that is, no, it means people will be disaffected by your brand. Kurt: I agree. Brian: They'll say your stuff isn't gonna last. Kurt: The brands I've seen where the product is incredibly durable, where they're comfortable in giving, like, really outlandish warranties on it because it's so durable; those are the brands where people, they don't have to worry about it falling apart and someone buying another one because people like it so much, they recommend it and they often will buy multiples. Brian: Right. Kurt: A good example would be, oh there's a Reddit group, I think, called Buy It For Life, where people just recommend products that they think will last a lifetime. Brian: Oh, funny. Kurt: Yeah. Off the top of my head ... And some are leather goods. But often times we see Saddleback Leather's bags mentioned, Beltman leather gun belts, which a gun belt- Brian: Okay. Kurt: Just turns out, it's a very stiff belt. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: I'm wearing one right now; it's a client. Brian: (laughs) Kurt: Yeah, those are great. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: What's the other one? Another good example. Oh, we use Everest bands as an example; they make watch straps for Rolex, but out of this unreal durable rubber. We had a review where someone said that they run it through an autoclave on a weekly basis, and the thing's fine. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Kurt: And it doesn't hurt their sales, people buy multiple products. So, no, I'm with you. Brian: And so what happened is, in 2011, I said that's it. It was late 2011, I said we have gotta shift to leather. We've just gotta shift, cause this is not a sustainable ... We're doing the eCommerce thing well. You know, by the way, we're not buying any ads from Google for the first three years. We are existing purely on reaching out to the press with new products. Any press that'll listen to us, and you know, if you have something kind of sexy, they'll write about it. Kurt: So that's a- Brian: And that would bring in sales. Kurt: Alright, that is an excellent point. But it's so difficult. Brian: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Kurt: Early on, the only marketing you were doing were two things, PR and these continuous launch cycles. Brian: Yep. Kurt: So you're coming out. You end up, kinda trapped in a thing where you're always launching new products; and that could be good, or it can be a struggle. Brian: Yeah, it's a little of both. Kurt: It's a little of both. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: But it gives you a reason to keep reaching out to the press. And once, I think, you've gotten over that initial hurdle where they're interested in you, and you start developing relationships, it helps. Brian: Right. Kurt: But what do you think goes into, like, what makes a good press pitch? Cause this is so difficult. Brian: Yeah. This is a good question. This is a good question. Two things, be real. You know, don't sit there and try to ... Don't talk to a press person like you're not pitching them; you are pitching them. But, with that said, be brief. Okay. Brevity is the soul of wit, is a famous saying. I love that saying; it's very true. Be very brief in your communication. Send a big fat image to the press. Make sure you're taking some photography of your product that looks nice. Pay a photographer friend, if you're just starting out, to maybe give you a hand. Because good imagery goes a long ways in a writer's mind, because in the end, what they're looking for is, are you offering me something my readers would care about? Is this interesting to my readers? Cause if it's interesting, yeah I'll write about it. I'll mention it. I'll tweet about it. So, be brief, be very real, just be open. Say, "Hey we're just starting out. We're a family business." That's what we used to say. Our pitch was, "Hey this is Brian from Pad & Quill. We're a small family business here, in Minneapolis. We've got these beautiful new iPad cases we're just releasing. Here's some images. Thanks for any considerations, if you'd cover us." I still say that same email, what I just said to you just now, today. Kurt: Hmm. Brian: I still email that exact same way, today, when I'm emailing Wired. Kurt: I'm sure it works. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: I am on the receiving end of so many awful pitch emails, and outreach emails. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: That when one comes through where it's like, alright, it's not a giant wall of text. It's concise, it's to the point, it tells me what the advantage to me and my audience is, and it's not trying to trick me, or in any way mislead me. It's saying, hey, this is who I am, this is what I can offer you or your audience, and if you wanna know more information, here's next ups. Brian: Right. Kurt: And it's genuine and real. Brian: It is, and I think that, that has a huge benefit. Again, it's that whole idea of, are you serving people? So I come from the place of serving my customers. I serve my customers, then I'll be able to create an income for myself and my family. If I serve my vendors by creating a customer base, then my vendors will be loyal to me, and continue to make products on time; because they know that I have a loyal customer base. If I'm going to the press, am I operating from a place of service? How am I serving the press person? Not using, serving. There's a huge difference between those two. Because in serving someone, you're saying, how can I help your column to be more interesting? Would this be a way to do it? And the press person may say, "No, this is not of interest to me right now," and that's fine. But it's better to come from that perspective, more of humility, than to come from, "You know, you should cover this. We have a lot of customers. You should cover our products, they last forever." Kurt: (laughs) Brian: That doesn't go very far with the press. It's funny, I wanna finish that pivot because you brought up a company I wanna kinda tie you into. So, in 2012, we wanted to move to leather goods. I wanted to get into more leather cases. I wanted to make an iPhone case. We were making them, at the time, out of traditional book bindery material. They'd last, honestly, about nine months. We were charging, like, $50, and I'm thinking, that's too much money for somethin that falls apart. You know? How do we do this? So I started reaching out to leather manufacturing companies, and I came across a company called Saddleback Leather Company. Kurt: Very good. Brian: And I hit up their PR guy, and I said, "Hey, I wanna do manufacturing." And they said no. And on the third time, I kept coming back, they gave in. So, all of our, the majority, I shouldn't say all, but the majority of our leather goods are made by Saddleback's manufacturing. So, Dave Munson's a good friend of mine, that developed over the last four years from all this. So it's funny you brought up Saddleback, cause I was like, "Yep, that's our people." Kurt: Right. Brian: And that's the thing is that, what I knew I needed, I don't wanna make just a beautiful item, I have to make something that lasts and is durable. And we have been so thrilled to be working with Saddleback's team. They have a plant in Mexico that we use, and it's just phenomenal, they treat their people really well. I've been there, I've seen what they do. It's just a fantastic company to work with. Yeah, so that's who we use for all our leather. So that happened in 2012, and we launched this little leather wallet case with them; and it was partly made here, actually. Some of it was made here, some of it was made in Mexico. It was all brought to St. Paul and assembled, and that took off in 2012. We had a huge, huge sales cycle, our biggest year ever in 2012; at that time. Kurt: This is just a leather wallet? This was your- Brian: Yeah, it was basically, like, a leather wallet case with our wood frame. We had our unique wood frame attached to all leather, so it was really durable. And that started in 2012, it was featured in the New York Times in 2013. We had a big year in 2013 and 14 because of it. Yeah, iPhone cases were real good to us in the first three years. And then, in 2013, 14 is when we started developing our lifestyle line. That's when we started bringing in bags, we started creating ... Our first bag launch was in late 2013. Kurt: I'm admiring your Classic Journeyman leather wallet on your website. I gotta- Brian: Oh yeah. Kurt: Pick up one of these. Oh, and it even comes in different colors. Brian: Oh yeah. Kurt: Oh that chest- Brian: Yeah, if that Chestnut looks familiar, you've seen it at Saddleback Leather. And I have no problem promoting Saddleback, cause honestly, it's a great company. Dave and I are different designer styles, definitely, but he makes great bags. He makes great bags. Kurt: Yeah, I see right on here. It says, "30 day, money back promise, and 10 year leather guarantee." Brian: Yeah. Kurt: So tell me, was it scary to offer this kind of warranty? Brian: Yeah. Yeah, it always is. It was funny cause I had a guy from inc.com, I was doing an interview two years ago, and he asked me, "Why not lifetime warranty? Why 25?" And I thought, it was a good question, and I thought, because lifetime is so cliched; everyone says lifetime. But by putting 25 years, what I'm trying to say is, it's gonna last two and half decades. You're gonna get a lot of use out of it. And by the time they last two and half decades, you're probably gonna want another one anyhow. You know, we'll have new stuff by then. Kurt: Right. Brian: I think we put a year around it because it gives it a definitive, like, wow this is built to really last. Yes, it's built to last. Is it scary? Yeah, it is, because you do have things break. Hardware breaks, stitching fails; it happens from time to time. We repair it and take care of it, but yeah. Put it this way, I don't feel nervous about the quality we're putting out, though. Does that make sense? We got a lot of confidence behind what we're doing. Kurt: Right, if you're confident in it, it shouldn't be scary. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: If you believe in your product, you shouldn't be afraid of it. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: I mean, really, your only fear is will people abuse it? And you're always gonna get someone who does. Brian: Yeah. I mean, we started coming out with ... We found a book bindery material that lasts more than six months. We found one that lasts for years. Now, we put a one year warranty on it, but it'll last. We tell customers, it's a one year warranty, but you'll have it for years. Because we found this really tough buckram, that's really beautiful; it's used in the library of Congress. That's what we wrap our iPad cases in. Kurt: Hmm. Brian: So for us, it's all about the materials. Will they last? So I guess I'm ... No, to answer the question, I'm not too worried because we're trying to use the materials that will last. Kurt: Right. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: So you've got, you're in the process ... Well, probably by the time this airs, maybe, your Shopify store will have launched. Brian: Hard to say. Kurt: Hard to say. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Brian: We actually see a delay coming because of, and you can edit this out if you want, or keep it in, I don't care. We may be unable to switch for at least a month or two because of a new iPad coming out in a few weeks. Kurt: (laughs) Cool. Brian: Because of that, we're gonna have so much lift on the site, we are very hesitant to shift platforms until the sales calm down. Kurt: So what platform are you on now? Brian: Magento. Kurt: And you're switching to Shopify Plus. Tell me- Brian: Thank God. Kurt: (laughs) Alright, so what happened? Why are you doing that? Brian: We were told early on, I had talked to a consulting group, and they said, "Oh, you should be on Magento, it's scalable, you can customize." All true, all true. I call Magento, kinda like, the PC, and Shopify is kinda like a Mac. Kurt: Hmm. Brian: That's how I see the two. I mean, you can do a lot of customization on Shopify, but it's very plug and play friendly. And for the entrepreneur who wants to start a company, the last thing you want, is to be figuring out how many hours you can pay a $150 an hour developer. Because if you have a Magento site, that's what you're doing all the time. You're paying a developer, constantly, for the smallest changes. Kurt: Right. Brian: Whereas, on Shopify, you have app store, you have plugins. We're, of course, with what we're doing, we're paying developers to help us with small projects here and there. But for the most part, it's really a lot easier to assemble a Shopify site. Magento is definitely customizable, but boy, you better have Magento Pro engineers, who are doing all your coding. They have to do all your maintenance, manage all your plugins. If you have conflicts with your plugins, that's up to you to figure it out. Shopify does all that for you. They do that thinking for you. Kurt: Right. Brian: That's something that is a huge benefit to us. We were debating Magento 2.0, last year, or Shopify, and came down on Shopify. Kurt: What was the straw that broke the camel's back, where you said, alright it's time to make the switch? Cause it is not an easy task to change platforms when you've got an existing, running business. Brian: It's not. I think, a couple things. One, we designed this site about three to four years ago, it was starting to feel three to four years old. The current site at padandquill.com if you go there right now, it's three to four years old design. And we're kinda, you know what, we need to make this a little cleaner. We've moved more into a luxury lifestyle brand. We wanna even display more large imagery about our lifestyle and what we do, and what we love. So, that was kinda the impetus to go, okay, what platform do we want it? We were thinking, originally, Magento 2.0, and then we started considering just how much technical work was required; and that's when we reached out to Shopify, and it was a pretty easy sale. Cause we were like, "Sounds good!" I mean, we'd pay a certain fee. We're on Shopify, what's it called? Shopify Plus? Kurt: Shopify Plus. Brian: Yeah, so we're paying a fee, but that's like, I already pay that fee with a developer right now to guarantee 99.9% uptime. Kurt: Right, yeah. Brian: I have to pay someone that right now. Kurt: Yeah. The thing you're trading ... It's interesting to sell, trying to explain the benefits and the value proposition of Shopify Plus to an existing Shopify store owner. They're like, "Alright." You have to figure out, like, what's the problem you're facing, and the Shopify Plus will solve it. Versus when someone is on Magento and they're looking at switching and you go, well you don't worry about, you know, for one flat fee, someone else is gonna manage and you never worry about hosting uptime, updates, security, all of that goes away, and support. Brian: Right. Kurt: And it just becomes a no brainer. Brian: And we've had security issues, just being open with you. We've had some security issues pop up because of outdated plugins. Kurt: Right, and those- Brian: And all kinds of stuff. And it was, like, an outdated plugin in a blog. Kurt: Yeah. Brian: On our Magento site. And someone had gotten in through the back door, and we caught it, fixed it. But it was one of these things where we're like, okay Shopify does all that for us. Kurt: Yeah. I have, literally, never seen a security vulnerability like that happen on Shopify. Whereas, previously we did a lot of WordPress development work, and that was like a constant, constant battle trying to keep those things locked down. Brian: Right. That's the last thing you need to be worrying about. Right? Kurt: Yeah, that's just such an unnecessary- Brian: I mean, that's the last thing. When you're designing products, you're trying to ... Cause what am I? I'm a designer. I'm a salesman. I'm a community developer. Like, we have a family of customers, that's where our focus needs to be. You know? Not on security issues on the site. Cause 98% of our revenue comes from eCommerce, our store. Kurt: Hmm. That's excellent. Brian: Yeah, we are not in wholesale. We're very much like Saddleback; we're eCommerce only. Kurt: So, we're coming to the end of our time together. You have had a long, successful, and wonderful journey over the last seven years. What are some of the things you've learned, that you would go back tell yourself when you were starting out? Brian: Oh, that's a great question. Did I tell you to ask me that question? That's a good one. Kurt: (laughs) No, no. You said what three things have you learned building a brand? Brian: Yeah. I would say this, if you have a product you're making that's starting to sell, and it's selling pretty well and you love making that product, and other products like it ... Whatever the field is, whatever you do, be very careful to not listen to consultants too much. There is wisdom in a host of counselors, there really is. But in the end, your passion has to be from you about what you wanna sell and bring to your customers. So be careful how much you listen to consult ... I did a lot of consultant listening early on, that I wouldn't do now. I would just be who I am. And the more that Kari and I have just been who we are as a couple in this business, the more success we've seen. The more we have followed what other people have told us, "Well, you're getting big now. You really need to think about strategic changes." Those are big disasters. Not disasters, that's a heavy word. Those have not been fruitful. So, be who you are. To the degree that you can do something you love, is a huge blessing, it really is. Not everyone gets that opportunity. Like I said, I was painting for 17 years. I was thankful I was able to bring in an income, but I didn't really enjoy painting. So, where you can match a passion or a desire to income, it's awesome. But it's not ... I don't think it's something you can always do. Does that make sense? Kurt: No, absolutely. Brian: I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture here, because it's pretty hard to do that. Kurt: I think it comes down to having an authentic voice, being true to yourself, being true to your brand. Brian: Yep. Kurt: The hard part is figuring out what that voice and brand are, and then letting that show through. Every time I've been scared to include more of my personality in my marketing and my work, it has always paid off. You know, people like having that authentic voice; and that's what part of the podcast is. Brian: Right. Kurt: I'm myself on the show, and then by the time someone says, "Hey Kurt, could we work together on this?" And we get on the phone, they go, "I feel like I already know you." Yeah, because the whole time, I've been myself, and that's so important. Brian: Right. That is so important. It is so important. Plus, you'll just be happier with yourself, at the end of the day. Cause you've been true to yourself, even if the business doesn't work out. You just don't guarantee that any of these businesses will succeed, right? Kurt: No, absolutely not. It's always a risk. Brian: But in the end of day, if they fail, were you yourself? Were you trying to be yourself? Yeah. Kurt: So, Brian- Brian: A good entrepreneur gets back up and says, "Okay, what can I do next?" Kurt: Yeah, you learn from it, you move on. Brian: Yep. Kurt: And try the next thing. Brian: Yep. Kurt: So Brian, where can people go to learn more about you? Brian: Yeah, so, the best place to learn about us is at www.padandquill.com. So that's our website, click on About Us if you wanna see our story in more detail; that's at the bottom of the page, About Us. You'll see a picture of Kari and I, and there's kind of our story, and kinda what drives us, our passion is very interesting as well. Also, coupon code. We have a coupon code for your listeners. Kurt: Wonderful. Brian: So bhappy. So the letter B, and then happy, H-A-P-P-Y, number 10, just one zero. That's 10% off anything, any product, including bags, leather bags as well. Kurt: And they are beautiful bags. 10%. Brian: Thank you! Thank you. Kurt: Alright, I wrote that down, I will include it in the show notes for folks. Brian: Cool. Kurt: Brian, thank you for everything. I appreciate it. Brian: Yeah, Kurt, thanks so much for having us on, and wish you best with your success on your podcast. Kurt: Thank you. That's all for us today at The Unofficial Shopify Podcast, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. So please, join our Facebook group, The Unofficial Shopify Podcast Insiders, and let me know. Or sign up for my newsletter, kurtelster.com, shoot me an email. Either way, you'll be notified whenever a new episode goes live. And of course, if you'd like to work with me on your next Shopify project, you can apply at Ethercycle. Com. As always, thanks for listening, and we'll be back next week.