Podcast appearances and mentions of john gaspard

Wow! That's about all I can say. Wow! It is amazing what Artificial Intelligence (AI) can do. In this week's episode we touch on AI and have a few things generated for us. First of all, we get a photo retouch in the photos below. Next we get a little new music generated for this podcast. And finally, we actually have a podcast episode generated by AI. Wow! View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize The AI generated podcast was based on the November 2021 M.U.M. cover article that was written by Tom Vorjohan. The website that generated it was https://notebooklm.google/ My friend, John Gaspard, linked it in his “Behind the Page” podcast (about the Eli Marks book series) and it piqued my interest. The music was generated by AI using https://suno.com/ and the photos by https://www.photoleapapp.com/ and https://newprofilepic.com/ Download this podcast in an MP3 file by Clicking Here and then right click to save the file. You can also subscribe to the RSS feed by Clicking Here. You can download or listen to the podcast through Pandora and SiriusXM (formerly Stitcher) by Clicking Here or through FeedPress by Clicking Here or through Tunein.com by Clicking Here or through iHeart Radio by Clicking Here. If you have a Spotify account, then you can also hear us through that app, too. You can also listen through your Amazon Alexa and Google Home devices. Remember, you can download it through the iTunes store, too. See the preview page by Clicking Here.

Join hosts J.D. Barker, Christine Daigle, and Jena Brown as they discuss the week's entertainment news, including why publishers try skinnier books, how the Authors Guild reached an agreement with TouchPoint Press, and Simon & Schuster Children's new deal. Then, stick around for a chat with John Gaspard! John Gaspard is author of the Eli Marks mystery series and the Como Lake Players mystery series. He also has several other stand-alone novels, including “The Greyhound of the Baskervilles,” “A Christmas Carl,” “The Sword & Mr. Stone” and “The Ripperologists.” He hosts two podcasts: "Behind the Page: The Eli Marks Podcast," and "The Occasional Film Podcast." In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less - that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, those books made more than the films. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several greyhounds, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/writersink/support

Eli Marks was expecting to only have the one customer who stepped into "Chicago Magic" just prior to closing, but moments later in steps a kid with a simple request: making a tuba disappear, Eli tries to help the boy, while keeping an eye on the other customer and hoping he doesn't get upset about their interruption. John Gaspard's short story, an addition to his series of novels which follow the character of Eli Marks, is performed by Brandon Schenk. After the performance we speak with John and ask him to sell us on him, "The Last Customer," and some other projects he has going on. Find the author: John Gaspard elimarksmysteries.com albertsbridgebooks.com Find the voice actor: Brandon Schenk Instagram: @baschenk

In this week's episode, we're talking about the writing process. Specifically, we're talking with screenwriter and novelist John Gaspard about the similarities between the movie-making process and the novelist's journey. They have a lot in common! From pre-production story planning to writing productivity, then editing and distribution, it's a complementary system. And lucky for us, John is willing to share some of his best “popcorn principles” with us.John is author of the Eli Marks mystery series and the Como Lake Players mystery series. He also has four other stand-alone novels, including two greyhound inspired pastiches: The Greyhound of the Baskervilles and A Christmas Carl.John has directed six low-budget features and has written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. In addition, he wrote two books for novelists: The Popcorn Principles and More Popcorn Principles: The Sequel.His most recent fiction book is a prequel to his Eli Marks series, “The Curious Mysteries of Eli Marks.” The Middle Grade book introduces us to thirteen-year-old Eli and explores how he came to the world of magic and magicians.Question of the week:  What's your purpose for writing? Or have you ever even thought about it? Join our new Facebook group and let's chat!Follow Us! John GaspardWebsite: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/and: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/The Author Wheel:Website: www.AuthorWheel.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/AuthorWheelGreta Boris:Website: www.GretaBoris.comFacebook: @GretaBorisAuthorInstagram: @GretaBorisMegan Haskell:Website: www.MeganHaskell.comFacebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthorSupport the show Support the showFREE Mini Email CourseHave you ever struggled to explain to others exactly what you write? Or wondered which of the many fiction ideas running through your brain you should tackle? If so, The Author Wheel's new mini-course might be your solution. 7 Days to Clarity: Uncover Your Author Purpose will help you uncover your core writing motivations, avoid shiny-thing syndrome, and create clear marketing language. Each daily email will lead you step by step in defining your author brand, crafting a mission statement, and distilling that statement into a pithy tagline. And, best of all, it's free. Click here to learn more!

In this episode, we spoke with John Gaspard, author of The Popcorn Principles: A Novelist's Guide to Learning from the Movies, an indispensable guide to implementing tips and tricks learned from film directors and film in general into your fiction writing. John is also the author of several mystery novels across two series, as well as multiple standalone novels and non-fiction titles. He also hosts two podcasts and has directed six low-budget feature films! We chatted with John about his new non-fiction title, his filmmaking experience, the times he spent interviewing well-known film directors, crafting a compelling mystery, what writers can learn from filmmakers, and so much more. Be sure to check out the "sequel" to The Popcorn Principles; John's latest, More Popcorn Principles: Further Cinematic Storytelling Strategies for Novelists is out now! Learn more about John by visiting his website.

Interview with writer John Gaspard, author of the book The Popcorn Principles: A Novelist's Guide To Learning From Movies.I interviewed Gaspard, author of the Eli Marks mystery series before on the podcast. Click here to listen to John's previous interview.You can support the podcast today by buying me a coffee, or you can subscribe to the podcast via Apple iTunes for ad-free episodes.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/reading-and-writing-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

How can you exploit the unique in your stories, as well as amp up the conflict? John Gaspard gives writing and creative business tips based on movies and TV. In the intro, Meta launches Threads, the new Twitter-like app — you can follow me @jfpennauthor; Possible Podcast episode with Ethan Mollick; Moonshots and Mindsets podcast […] The post Writing Tips From The Movies With John Gaspard first appeared on The Creative Penn.

This week Ashley Scott Meyers talks with writer and author John Gaspard. They talk about indie filmmaking on a budget and use examples such as Kevin Smith's Clerks, Darren Aronofsky's Pi and the work of Roger Corman. These examples are from John Gaspard's book, Fast Cheap and Written That Way and Fast Cheap and Under […]

Episode 164 / We delve into writing craft this week with mystery author and podcaster John Gaspard, who shares how to use filmmaking techniques in novel writing. We also discuss finding unique aspects of our lives and using them in our books. We also cover some practical tips like the importance of eliminating unnecessary details between scenes and chapters, as well as cutting the last sentence or two of a scene, a technique recommended by Aaron Sorkin.John also shared how he uses existing content to create podcasts for readers. Links: Save the date: Written Word Media series: What We Wish We'd Known About Publishing With Sara Rosett and Jami Albright (April 27th, 2023 at 12:00pm ET): https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/speaker-series/Show notes: Timestamps:[00:00:52] Writing Veteran Transitions to Fiction Novelist[00:09:04] Don't encourage friends and family to buy[00:11:32] Author Buys Back Rights From Publisher: Success Story[00:19:17] Shifting Perceptions of Traditional Publishing vs Self-Publishing[00:21:27] The Popcorn Principles: Filmmaking Techniques for Writing"[00:23:33] Exploit Your Unique Perspective in Filmmaking[00:27:12] Maximize Impact: Lessons on Scene Structure[00:32:44] Leveling up: Revealing Character and Backstory through Dialog[00:36:38] Podcasting Chapters of Your Novel[00:42:31] The Timeless Podcast: Evergreen Content Author website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com

Matty Dalrymple talks with John Gaspard about THE TOP 6 LESSONS NOVELISTS CAN LEARN FROM MOVIES, including the importance of staying in your lane, being completely committed, coming in late and leaving early, callbacks (or reaping what you've sown), getting notes (or working with beta readers), and not hesitating to hesitate. If one of those topics piques your interest, you can easily jump to that section of the interview by going to The Indy Author on YouTube and clicking on the flagged timestamps in the video description. https://www.youtube.com/c/TheIndyAuthorPodcast Show notes at https://bit.ly/TIAP180  Did you find the information in this video useful? Please consider supporting The Indy Author! https://www.patreon.com/theindyauthor https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattydalrymple John Gaspard is author of the Eli Marks mystery series, the Como Lake Players mystery series, and four stand-alone novels. He hosts two podcasts: "Behind the Page: The Eli Marks Podcast," and "The Occasional Film Podcast.” John has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less. John's latest book is “The Popcorn Principles: A Novelists Guide to Learning from Movies.”   John was previously a guest in: Episode 145 - Speech to Text and Back Again with John Gaspard Episode 128 - Lessons from Filmmaking for the Indy Author with John Gaspard (focused on the business side of authorship)

Having interviewed Hollywood filmmakers on the secrets of storytelling, John Gaspard passes those tips onto novelists.

Matty Dalrymple talks with Clarissa Gosling about THE IMPORTANCE OF GOOD HABITS AND HOW ACCOUNTABILITY GROUPS CAN HELP, including the importance of consistency, giving yourself time to rest, the challenge of measuring creative productivity, and the value both of finding what you're comfortable with AND of changing up your approach. Matty got so inspired by the topic of good habits, she solicited input from previous podcast guests on: • What is a good habit that supports your creative work? • What is a bad habit that undermines your creative work? You'll get to hear perspectives from Douglas Smith, Kelly Simmons, Lee Savino, J. W. Judge, Ran Walker, Julie Duffy, Michael La Ronn, Roland Denzel, Bruce Robert Coffin, Tiffany Yates Martin, John Gaspard, and Frank Zafiro. Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out 2 MINUTES OF INDY https://bit.ly/2MinutesOfIndy, where over the week following the airing of the episode, you'll find brief video clips from the interview on each of those topics. You can also catch up on some highlights of previous episodes there. Show notes at https://bit.ly/TIAP167 Did you find the information in this video useful? Please consider supporting The Indy Author! https://www.patreon.com/theindyauthor https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattydalrymple Clarissa's work explores purpose and belonging across worlds. Having never found an actual portal to faeryland, she creates her own fantastical worlds where dragons, fae and other magical creatures rule. She is an admin for the 365 Writing Challenge, an international group that supports people to build the habit of writing. And she is one of the co-hosts of the Reading Queens podcast, which discusses mainly young adult fantasy books and their major tropes. She lives in the Netherlands.

This week, I am joined by author and fellow podcaster, John Gaspard. We talk about the books he's written, both fiction and nonfiction, the occasional film podcast he has and he introduces me to one of the best movies I've seen in a while, Harold and Maude! Follow the show at linktr.ee/ynfmoviepod.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with filmmaker Eric Mendelsohn, who revisits the lessons he learned while making his debut feature film, “Judy Berlin.”LINKSJudy Berlin Trailer: https://youtu.be/23PlEaTy9WAEdie Falco Interview about Judy Berlin: https://youtu.be/AoC5q5N-6kYA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast***TRANSCRIPT -EPISODE 106Eric Mendelson Interview [JUDY BERLIN SOUNDBITE] JohnThat was a soundbite from “Judy Berlin,” which was written and directed by today's guest, Eric Mendelsohn. Hello and welcome to episode 106 of The Occasional Film podcast -- the occasional companion podcast to the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. I'm the blog's editor, John Gaspard. Judy Berlin, starring Edie Falco, as well as Madeline Kahn, Bob Dishy, Barbara Barrie and Julie Kavner, was Eric Mendelsohn's feature film debut. The film was an Official Selection of the Cannes Film Festival … won Best Director at Sundance … Best Independent Film at the Hamptons Film Festival … and was nominated for three Independent Spirit Awards. Eric is currently the Professor of Professional Practice, Film, at Columbia University. I first spoke to Eric about Judy Berlin years and years ago, for my book, Fast Cheap and Under Control: Lessons Learned from the Greatest Low-Budget Movies of All Time. In the course of that interview, Eric laid out a handful of really smart filmmaking lessons – lessons that, if followed, might be the difference between making a successful film … or making no film at all. I was curious: What did Eric think about those lessons, all these years later? Before we got into that, though, we talked about the origins of Judy Berlin … [MUSIC TRANSTION] John What was the impetus that made Judy Berlin happen? Eric It's answerable in a more general way. When I get interested in making a script or making a film, it's because a group of feelings and images almost in a synesthesia kind of way, come together and I get a feeling and I say, oh, yeah, that would be fun. And for Judy Berlin, the set of feelings were definitely having to do with melancholy, hopefulness, the suburbs and my intimate feelings about them being a fresh place that I hadn't seen, represented in the way I experienced them. Things as abstract as how everyone feels in autumn time, I guess, maybe everyone does. I don't know. Maybe there are some people who are just blissfully unaware of all those sad feelings of you know, autumn, but I felt like they were worth reproducing if maybe they hadn't been in that particular locale. I think this is a funny thing to say but against all of that sadness, and kind of hope against hope, being hopeful against hopelessness, I had this sound of a score to a Marvin Hamlisch score to Take the Money and Run. And I actually asked him to do the music and he said he didn't understand such sadness that was in the movies that this isn't something I do. Which is really true and I didn't get it and I wanted to persist and say no, but that score for Take the Money and Run, that has such like almost like a little kids hopefulness about it. That's what I wanted. It was like a river running underneath the ground of the place that I had grown up with. And I think the other inspiration for the movie was pretty, I don't know, maybe it's called plagiarism. Maybe it's called inspiration, the collected feeling that you can distill from the entire works of Jacques Demy, and I loved Jacques Demy 's films. They gave me a license. I saw them and said, Well, if you can mythologize your own little town in the northwest of France that maybe seems like romantic to Eric Mendelsohn from old Bethpage, Long Island, New York but truly is a kind of a unremarkable place at the time it was made, that I can do it with my town. I can mythologize everybody, and love them and hate them and talk about them and so those are some of the feelings that went into it. John But they all came through. So, what I want to do is just go through the handful of lessons that you told me X number of years ago, and let's see what you think about them now. So, one of the big ones that turns up again and again, when I talked to filmmakers was the idea of write to your resources. And in the case of Judy Berlin, you told me that that's a great idea and you thought you were: It takes place over one day with a bunch of characters in one town. When in fact you were really making things quite difficult for yourself by having middle aged people with homes and cars and businesses and professional actors who all had other things going on. Eric 03:35And multiple storylines is a terrible idea for low budget movie making. Each actor thought oh, I'm in a little short film. I, however, was making a $300,000 movie about 19 characters. What a stupid guy I was. John 03:53Do you really think it was stupid? Eric 03:54It was. You know, everyone says this after you have graduated from that kind of mistake or once you've done it, you look back and say I would only have done that because I didn't know any better. I know you haven't finished your question. But I also want to say that writing or creating from ones' resources also includes what you are able to do, what you are able to manufacture. In other words, I didn't have enough writing skill to concentrate on two characters or one character in house, like Polanski, in his first endeavors. I didn't I had small ideas for many characters. It's much more difficult to write a sustained feature film with two people. So, I was writing to my resources in a number of ways, not just production, but in my ability as a writer at that point. John 04:53Yeah, you're right. It is really hard. I don't know why they always say if you're gonna make a low budget movie, have it be two people in a room. That's really hard to do. The idea of let's just tell a bunch of stories does seem easier and I've done that myself a couple times and it is for low budget easier in many respects. My stuff is super low budget, no one's getting paid. We're doing it on weekends, and you can get some really good actors to come over for a couple days and be really great in their part of the movie and then you put it all together. Another advantage is if you have multiple stories, I learned this from John Sayles in Returns of the Secaucus Seven, he said I couldn't move the camera. So, I just kept moving the story. It allowed him to just, I can't move the camera, but I can move to the next scene, I can move to these people, or I can move to those people there. And it also allows you an editing a lot of freedom, because you can shift and move and do things. So, the downside you had of course was on just a strictly production shooting day level, very hard to do what you were doing. But it did allow you to grow a bit as a writer because you're able to write a lot of different kinds of characters and different kinds of scenes. Eric 05:57Remember, I always say this, you know, you sit in your room, and I believe you need to do this as a writer, you sit in your room and you say to yourself, she slams a car door harder than usual. And then you realize later she drives a car, where am I going to get a car from? She enters her house. How am I going to get a house and if I have seven characters, and they all have cars, that's a job in itself. One person could spend their summer looking for seven cars. But that's the least of your problems. When it's houses, cars, clothing, handbags, all of it. John 06:30Yeah, when you're starting out, you don't necessarily realize that every time you say cut to something in your script, that's a thing. You've got to get it. I did a feature once that had four different stories and there are four different writers and a writer came to me with his finished script, which was brilliant, but it was like 14, 15 locations that I had to shoot over two days. So, how do you do that? Well, you end up spending four days on it. But the other hand, another writer who understood screenwriting, handed me a script that was four locations, but brilliantly combined and figured out. So, in two days, you could shoot them all because he knew what he was doing. And that's something you don't necessarily learn until you're standing there at six in the morning with a crew going, I don't know what I'm doing right now, because I screwed myself up and I wrote it and that's sometimes the only way you can learn it. Eric 07:16I think it's the only way. The only way. Look, you can be precautious, you can, it's no different than life, your parents can warn you about terrible, ruinous, stupid, love affairs that are going to wreck you for a year. Are you really going to just not get into them because of what smart older people said? You throw yourself at a film in the way that hopefully you throw yourself at love affairs. You're cautious and then you've just got to experience it. And I think the difference obviously is in film, you're using lots of people's time, effort money, and you do want to go into it with smarts and planning. I still say that you should plan 160%. Over plan in other words. And then the erosion that naturally happens during production, this crew member stinks and had to be fired a day before. This location was lost. This actress can't perform the scene in one take because of memory problems. All of that is going to impact your film. Let's say it impacts it 90%. Well, if you plan to 160%, you're still in good shape in the footage that you get at the end of the production. John 08:29Yeah, I'm smiling, because you're saying a lot of the things you said last time, which means it's still very true. Alright, the next lesson was, and this is one that I've embraced forever: No money equals more control. You spoke quite eloquently about the fact that people wanted to give you more money to make Judy Berlin if you would make the following changes. Looking back on it did you make the right decisions on that one? Eric 08:51Yes. I'll tell you something interesting. Maybe I didn't say this last time. But I remember my agent at the time saying to me, we could get you a lot of money. Why don't you halt production? We'll get you so much money that will get you--and this is the line that always stuck in my head-- all the bells and whistles you want. Now, I'm going to be honest with you what he said scared me for two reasons. One, I had worked in production for a long time in my life and I knew that if you stall anything, it just doesn't happen. It just doesn't. That the energy of rolling downhill is better than sitting on the hill, potential energy and trying to amass funds. But another thing and I was scared privately because I said to myself, I don't even know what the bells and whistles are. I'm afraid to tell him that I don't know what they are. And I'd rather I think that's those bells and whistles are for some other savvy filmmaker that I'll maybe become later. But right now I have the benefit of not knowing enough and I'm going to throw myself and my planning and my rigorous militaristic marshalling of people and props and costume names and locations and script. I'm gonna throw that all at the void and do it my cuckoo way because once I learned how to make a movie better, I'll have lost a really precious thing, which is my really, really raw, naive, hopeful, abstract sense of what this could be. And that thing that I just said with all those words was not just a concept. I didn't know what I was making, in the best sense possible. I was shooting for something, shooting it for an emotional goal, or a visual goal for a dramatic goal but I didn't put a name on it. I didn't put a genre to it. So much so that by the time I got to the Sundance Film Festival, and I read the first line of a capsule review, and it said, A serio-comic suburban. I almost cried, I felt so bad that I didn't know what I was making in an objective sense. In a subjective sense, obviously, I knew exactly what I was trying to do. But objectively, I didn't know it could be summed up by a review. And it hurt me so badly to think I was so mockable and now I'm going to embarrass myself by telling you what I thought I was making. I didn't think I was making something that could have a boldface thing that said, serio comic, multi character, suburban fairy tale. I didn't know that. I really thought I was like writing in glitter on black velvet or I don't know, I didn't even know that it could just be summed up so easily. And I think I've written a lot of scripts since that one, and many haven't gotten made, but each time I reject and issue an objective determination of what the thing is that I'm working on, prior to sitting down. Is that the best way to work? It is a painful way to work. My friends will tell you that. I have my great friend and filmmaker Rebecca Dreyfus always says that I have creative vertigo, that I don't know what I'm doing for months and years on end and then I looked down and I say, Oh, God, I think it's a horror film. Or I think I've rewritten a Dickens story. And I get a nauseated kind of, you know, dolly in rack, focus thing. It's not, I'm telling you, I'm not describing a creative process that is painful for me to realize, always later on what I'm doing. And I still hold, that's the only way I can do it. I will not go into a screenplay and then a film saying this is a serio comic black and white, multi character, suburban, who wants that? I go in thinking, I'm making something that I don't know, that no one's seen before and then we'll see what they think. John 12:54You know, we were very similar, you and I in that regard. In addition to low budget, filmmaking, as I've gotten older, I've gotten into novel writing and mystery writing, which I enjoy. And the parallels between independent publishing and independent filmmaking are really close. One of the things that people say all the time in independent publishing that I back away from is you have to write to market. You have to know who your audience is, what they like, and write a book for them. And I can't do that. I can write a book for me that, you know, if I slip into dementia in 20 years and read it, I won't remember writing it, but I would enjoy it because all the jokes are for me and all the references are for me... Eric 13:32I think you and me, doing the exact right thing, according to me. And you'll be happy to know, because I teach at Columbia Columbia's film grad school, we have an unbelievable group of alumni people, you know, like, you know, Jennifer Lee, who created Frozen and the people behind Making of a Murderer and Zootopia. And all they ever say when they come back to speak to our students is nobody wants a writer who is writing to the industry. They want something they haven't seen before that is new, fresh, odd, and still steaming be you know, out of the birth canal. John 14:14Yep. The corollary to that, that I tell people who are writing and also people who are filmmakers who want to work that way is the more you can take economics out of the process, the more you're able to not need to make money from what you're doing, the happier you're going to be. Because every movie I've ever made has never made money and it didn't matter. It wasn't the purpose. The purpose was, oh, this is interesting idea. Let's explore this with these 12 actors and see what happens. But if you can take economics out of it, you completely free. Eric 14:41You free and I'll tell you what, I know. Again, it's just a perspective, one person's perspective. But everyone, you know, you want to leave on the earth some things that you felt good about, whether they're children or ethics or some civic thing you did for your town, or a movie. And all the people I know who made tons of money always are talking about coming back to their roots because they're so unhappy. Like, I get it. I get it. And all these actors who want to do work for no money, it's because they feel like well, I sure I made a ton of money, but I didn't get to do any of the stuff I really care about. I remember in my first real attempt at filmmaking after film school, a short half hour film that starred the late Anne Meara and Cynthia Nixon in an early film role and F Murray Abraham did the voiceover. And I was 20 something years old, and the film did very well and it was just a half hour movie and we showed it at the Museum of Modern Art. And after the screening, a woman came up to me and I don't remember what language she was speaking. She was Asian, and she tried to explain to her to me, what the movie meant to her, but she spoke no English and she kept tapping her heart and looking at me. Anne Meara was standing next to me and she kept pointing like and then making a fist and pounding her chest and pointing to like a screen in the air, as if she was referencing the movie. And then she went away. Anne Meara said, listen to me now, it will never get better than that. I understand completely. For the movie I made after Judy Berlin, which is called Three Backyards and a movie I produced and cowrote after that, called Love After Love. I didn't read the reviews. Who cares? John 16:27Yeah, that's a pretty special experience and good for her to point that out to you. Eric 16:31Her husband in a bar after a production of The Three Sisters told me that--this is pretty common. This is Jerry Stiller, the late great comedian said to me, I was about to tell him what the New York Times had said about his performance. He said, no, no, no, don't. Because if you believe the good ones, then you have to believe the bad ones. And I've since known that that is something that's said a lot. But if a review isn't going to help you make your next movie, then don't read it. Marlena Dietrich, in my favorite last line, paraphrased from any movie, gets at why criticism is unimportant for the artist. In the end of Touch of Evil, she says, “what does it matter what you say about other people.” It's just, you either do or they did to you or you experience all that garbage of what people say it goes in the trash, no one except for maybe James Agee's book, there's very few film criticism books that people are desperate to get to, you know, in 50 years. But you take a bad movie, I watched some summer camp killer movie the other night, and I thought I'd rather watch this than read what somebody said about this movie. I'd rather watch somebody's earnest attempt to fling themselves at the universe than a critics commentary upon it. Yeah. Anyone who gets up at five in the morning to go make a movie has my respect and I don't even you know, on the New York Times comments online commentary site, I refused when it's about artwork to come in even anonymously. Nope! John 18:05Okay. You did touch on this. But it's so important and people forget it. I phrased it as time is on your side. You talked about being prepared 160% and having Judy Berlin, every day, there were two backups in case for some reason, something didn't happen and the advantage you had was you had no money. But you had time and you could spend the time necessary doing months of pre-production, which is the certainly the least sexy part of filmmaking, but is maybe the most important and is never really talked about that much. How much you can benefit from just sitting down and putting the schedule down? I mean, we used to, I'm sure with Judy Berlin, you're using strips and you're moving them around and when we did our 16-millimeter features, we didn't even spend the money on the board. We made our own little strips, and we cut them out and did all that. You can do it now on computers, it's much easier, but it's having that backup and that backup to the backup. You don't really need it until you need it and then you can't get it unless you've put it in place already. Eric 19:06Well, I'll say this, I have to disabuse some of my students at Columbia by telling them that there is no like effete artist who walks onto a set-in filmmaking with no idea about scheduling. That character fails in filmmaking. That every single director is a producer, and you cannot be stupid about money, and you cannot be stupid about planning and in fact, Cass Donovan who is an amazing AD and one of my good friends. She and I sometimes used to do a seminar for young filmmakers about scheduling your movie and I always used to say, you know, a good schedule is a beautiful expression of your movie, where you put your emphasis. And it comes out in the same way that people say like oh, I just like dialogue and characters. I'm not good at structure. There's no such things. You need at least to understand that a good structure for your story can be a beautiful, not restrictive, rigorous device that's applied to your artistry, a structure and a story is a beautiful can be a beautiful thing and the expression of the story and the same thing is true with the schedule. The schedule is an expression of your story's emphases. If your story and your resources are about actors, and you've got an amazing group of people who are only doing the project and lending their experience and talent, because they thought this was a chance to act and not be hurried. Well, that expresses itself in how many days and how many shots you're going to schedule them in. And I love how a schedule expresses itself into an amount of days and amount of money and allocation of funding. I love it. There is no better way to find out what your priorities were and I love it. And in terms of planning, one of the reasons I don't understand or have an inkling to investigate theater is I don't want something that goes on every evening without my control, where the actors sort of do new things or try stuff out and the carefully plotted direction that you created can get wobbly and deformed over time. Instead, I like the planning of a script and now I'm not talking about pre-production. I'm talking about I like that, with screenwriting, you go down in your basement for as long as you need. So, maybe I'm afraid of shame and I don't like to present stuff that is so obviously wrong to whole groups of people. I like to go down in the basement for both the writing and the pre-production and get the thing right. You know, there are so many ways to make a movie that I'll also I want to place myself in a specific school of filmmaking. To this point in my directing life, I've created scripts that are meant to be executed in the sense that not as disciplined in execution as what Hitchcock or David Lean, we're shooting for, but not as loose an experiment as Cassavetes, or let's say, Maurice Pilar. We're going for, everyone has to find their own expression. In other words, if you are Maurice Pilar or Cassavetes, or Lucrecia Martel, you have to find your own equation, you have to find your own pre-production/production equation where the room for experimentation. I haven't really wanted to experiment on set, I know what shots I want, and I get them. The next film I make may be different. But everyone has a different equation and every script and every director are going to find their own priorities that are expressed in the project and then the execution. The fun thing was, the last movie I worked on, was something I've produced and co-wrote ,called Love After Love. And that was directed and co-written by Russ, and Russ and I spent years writing a script that we knew that was intended to be elastic, and to be a jumping off ground for the kind of impromptu directing he does. Now, a lot of what we wrote ended up in the movie, but sometimes he would call me from the set and say, this isn't working and that was exciting, because we knew that would happen. And he told the cast and the crew before they went into the project, before they went into the short film he made before that called Rolling on the Floor Laughing. This is intended to be a porous experiment ,with a firm spine of drama that is not porous. So, we've created a drama and interrelations in that script that then he went off, and those couldn't budge. Those were fixed the dramatic principles and dynamics. But he worked as a director in a completely different way than me and I was very happy to loosen my own way of working and then as a producer, make sure that he had what he needed on the set, and that the pre-production, production and even editing--we took a year to edit that film--was based in an idiosyncratic methodology of his particular artistry, not mine. John 24:34And why I think is so interesting about that is that you know, you made sure that everybody involved knew going in we're doing this kind of movie and this kind of movie has … I remember talking to Henry Jaglom, about I don't know which movie it was, you know, Henry has a very loose style of what he does. But it's still a movie, and he was talking about, he was shooting a scene and an actress either jumped into a swimming pool or push somebody into a swimming pool. And he said, Why did you do that? She said, I was in the moment. Yeah, and he said, yes, this is a movie and now I have to dry these people off and I have to do the coverage on the other side. So, you need to know where the lines are, how improvised is this really. Eric 25:15And everyone has different lines, and you make movies to find out how you make movies. You write screenplays to find out what that feeling is and whether or not you can interest an audience in it. You don't write a screenplay to execute Syd Fields, ideas about story or the hero's journey. I'm not a hero. I don't have a hero's journey. I have my journey. The task, the obligation is to see if I can take that and still make it dramatic and interesting to a group of hostile strangers, normally called an audience, John 25:52As Harry Anderson used to say, if you have a bunch of people all seated facing the same direction, do you owe them something. Eric 25:58Yeah, it's unbelievable. A friend of mine who works in theater saw a terrible show and he works on Broadway, and he works on all the big shows that you have heard of. So, I can't give the title of this one particular production. And he said, you know, I feel like telling these people because he works in lighting. He said, I feel like telling these people who create these shows that every single audience member who comes to see the show at eight o'clock that night, woke up at seven in the morning, and they're tired, and they worked and you better provide something at eight that night. John 26:33Exactly. I remember talking to Stuart Gordon, the guy who made Reanimator, and he was big in theater before he got into horror films. And he said we had one patron who always brought her husband, and I'll say his name was Sheldon, I forget what the name was. And he would consistently fall asleep during the shows. And my mandate to the cast was our only job is to keep Sheldon awake. Yeah, that's what we're there to do is to keep Sheldon alert and awake. And I think at all the time as you're watching something on film, you're going is that going to keep Sheldon awake, or is that just me having fun? Eric 27:01No, he didn't ask this question, so it's probably not. But a lot of students are not a lot, actually but some students will say to me like, well, what I have to know the history of movies? Why do I have to know that when I'm going to create something new? And I just think because you're not. Because there is a respect for a craft. Forget the art of people who have been doing this for ages. And to not know it puts you in the position of the only person on set who doesn't realize that. Every single crew member is a dramatist: the script supervisor is a dramatist, the set decorator is a dramatist, the costume designer, the cinematographer, the producer. So sometimes my students in directing will say to me, well, I thought this shot was interesting and I said, Okay, you may think that's interesting. But I'm going to tell you something scary right now: your producer, and your editor will know immediately that you don't know what you're doing and that that won't cut. It is not a secret this thing you are doing, this skill. Learn what other people, what the expectations of the art form are, please, and then build from them and break rules and expand but don't do it naively. John 28:06Yeah. When I wrote the first book, it was because I had done an interview with a couple guys who made a movie called The Last Broadcast, which came out right before Blair Witch, which had a similar project process to it. And one of them said to me, he said in talking to film students, one thing I keep seeing is everyone wants to reinvent the wheel. And so I put the book together, because here's all the different lessons, you can you're going to end up learning in one way or another, you might as well read them now and like you say, not find out that that won't cut because it won't cut. It just won't cut. Alright, you did touch on this lesson earlier just in passing, but it's a good one and it's sometimes a tough one. I just called it Fixed Problems Quickly and it was about if there's a crew member who's not part of the team, it's easier to get rid of them two weeks out, then two hours into the shoot. Eric 28:54Yep, it still holds, and it happened on the film I made after Judy Berlin as well. Someone who had worked on Judy Berlin came on to the new production of Three Backyards, and I tried my best to keep this untenable relationship working. But like a rotten root on a plant, it started to rot everything around it, and everyone would like to be the well-liked captain of the ship. But that also means firing crew members sometimes. We had a very, very big key position on that film, and we had to lose them a week before we shot. I'll tell you something else about Three Backyards. It was a week before we shot it. Is it okay that I talked about that? John 29:39Absolutely. We're talking about what you've learned. Eric 29:42Yeah. So, after Judy Berlin I made a film called Three Backyards with Edie Falco and Elias Kotes and host of other people. A very strange movie it was, I am not joking. I haven't said this. So, not that this is some big reveal that anyone gives a shit about but before, a week before we shot it was called Four Backyards. I've never told that because I didn't want anyone to watch it with that mindset and start to say, and we even kept the crew quiet and said, please, we don't want this to get out that it's you know. And I cut out an entire storyline a week before shooting. Now, when I tell you that it was an actor, a very amazing actor in that storyline, the fourth backyard, who I had to call, who was already doing driving around on his motorcycle in the location, going to visit places that had to do with his storyline, costume fittings, everything had been done locations we had gotten, I had to call them and say we're cutting, that your character and that storyline. It was still to this day unbearable. I don't expect you know, the guy is very well known and successful, and you know, has done far more important things than my little movie. But I still feel guilty to this day. I feel nauseous to this day that I did that, that I had to do it. We got to a point where it was clear, the expression of the film called Four Backyards would be running through one take per shot, per setup and running through with no time to work on the characters, no time to give these amazing actors, you know what they wanted. We'd be run and gun and I just said, I'm not this old, you know, to making this movie so that I can re-learn terrible lessons and put these actors through that kind of experience. So, I cut an entire storyline that was dragging down this buoy, let's say in the water and then once we cut it off, and I of course I don't mean the actor or the performance, the potential performance. I mean, the production. Once that fell to the bottom of the sea, the buoy lifted and bounced and righted itself. And I lived with that decision knowing I did the right thing, but that it was hard. We also lost one of the key, we lost our production designer I would say about 15 days before shooting, and that was another one of those kinds of decisions where I said get it done now. I will say this offline on Three Backyards. There was a crew member who had, the minute I shook hands with them, I knew this is that kind of poisonous sniping inconsolable person. But I leave those decisions to department heads and that's not my job to get in and say this person seems awful to me. But that's my feeling. They worked for about, let me say this carefully, they worked and it and became exactly the problem that I had predicted. They initiated a work stoppage that was uncalled for, unprofessional, and everyone was aware. They pretended not to know what location we were going to next and didn't show up. We were delayed I think 40 minutes. On a low budget movie, 40 minutes is unsustainable. And I will just say this, I had to make the decision because we were so deep into the film, whether or not firing that person would cause such bad feelings in the remaining crew or free us up in a way that was similar to what I described earlier. I decided to keep the person and it was I believe the right decision because we were close enough to finishing the film that I believed I would no longer reap benefits from firing them and that leads me to a sentence that I probably told you when I was 20 or whatever how old I was when I spoke to you. I'm now 57. On a movie, you want to be effective not right. In other words, a decision that is morally right on a film which is a temporary, collapsible circus tent where people strangers get together and work for a month, being morally right can hit the main pole of that circus tent really hard and collapse. You want to be effective not right. The right decision in a movie. It is the one that gets forward motion. In that particular case, I took my revenge out later, I kept the person, I bit my tongue and swallowed my pride and said I'm so sorry, let's negotiate. How can we make you happier? However, after we finished production, my more powerful friends in the industry never hired that person again. That person was fired from large TV productions that they were on and given no reason and I felt absolutely thrilled with that. John 34:48Well, it does catch up with you. The next one is one that I use all the time and you just put it very succinctly you said, Fewer Takes, More Shots. Eric 34:57So, I can talk about that. I want to be specific though, that it's for my kind of filmmaking. If you're shooting every scene in one shot, this cannot apply. But in the edit room generally, is a very broad stroke comment, generally, if you're a more conventional visual director who tells stories with shots, you get stuck on one shot in one setup, especially if it's a master and you're trying to get it right. You have no other storytelling ability. You don't have the move in. You don't have the overhead shot. You don't have the insert shot of the finger of the character touching a teaspoon nervously. You don't have any other storytelling ability if you get stuck in one setup. So, a lot of people always say, you know, remember, your first take is probably your best take. That's a good truism. There's an energy that you get from nervous actors, nervous camera operators in a first take. So, sometimes your first take has a great spontaneity about it. Sometimes it lingers for a second or third take. The idea that you are going to beat that dead horse into the ground with subsequent takes going up through 13, 15, 19 to get something perfect flies in the face of the actuality, which is that editing, performance, the rhythm of the eventual scene through shots and takes creates what the audience experiences. That the idea of perfection is a great way to flatten your actors, kill your dialogue, ruin your scene. It's like when I first made a pie ever in my life, nobody taught me and I didn't really look at a book. I was preparing a meal for a woman who was coming up to her country house and I was upstate using the house. And I thought to myself as I carefully cut the butter into the flour and created a little pebbly, beautiful texture, and then gently gathered those pebbles of flour and butter and sugar together into a ball. I mistakenly thought that if I took the rolling pin and roll the life out of it, I would be making the best crust possible. And it tasted it was inedible. It tasted like shoe leather. And I said what did I do wrong? And they said, the object she said to me when she arrived, the object is to gather those delicate, beautiful pebbles together and lightly make it into a crust that retains the little particles, the delicate interstitial hollows. Not to flatten the life out of it. And the same is true about shots. The more angles you have, if that's the way you shoot, create a sense of life. That's about as good as I can say it. John 37:49Well, you know, I want to add just a couple of things. When I did the book, originally, I talked, had a wonderful long conversation with Edie, Falco about Judy Berlin. She was trying to get her brand-new baby to go to sleep while we talk and so it's very quiet recording of her talking. Eric 38:04That's my godson Anderson. John 38:05Oh, that's so sweet. She said about multiple takes. She said there's a perception sometimes with filmmakers that actors are this endless well. And she said, I'm not, I'm just not. Unless you're giving me direction to change something, it's going to be the same or worse. Again, and again. And so you know, of all the lessons from the book that I tell people when I'm making presentations, fewer takes more shots. The thing, a corollary of attitude, is if you're going to do another take, tell them to do it faster, because you're gonna want a faster version of it. You don't realize that right now, but you're gonna want one. Eric 38:38Here's a great way of saying it. I feel people mistake, directors mistakenly think that they are making the film on set. The filming of a movie is a shopping expedition for, drumroll please, ingredients. If you are shooting one take per scene, sure, get it right, you have your own methodology. But if you're going to be telling a story in the traditional narrative way, where a bunch of angles and performances in those shots, setups angles, will eventually tell the story of a scene that let's say for example, goes from pedestrian quotidian to life threatening, remember that you need the ingredients to then cook in the edit room of quotidian, seemingly boring escalating into life threatening. Making a movie on set in production is shopping for the ingredients and you come home and then you forget the recipe and say, what did I get? What was available? What was fresh? What does that mean if you're not talking about food? Well, this actor was amazing, and I lingered on them and I worked on their performance because it's going to be great. That's one of the ingredients you have to work on. In the edit room, this actor was less experienced, and I had to do more setups because they couldn't carry a scene in one shot. That's what I have to work with now in the edit room. When you're in the edit room, you're cooking with the ingredients you got in the fishing expedition called shooting. That's why my students say to me, well, why am I going to get extra footage? Why am I going to get anything but the bare minimum? Why am I going to overlap in terms of, well, you think you're only going to use that angle for two lines, we'll get a line on either side of the dialog, so that you have it in case. And they say, that's not being professional. That's not being precise and accurate. And I'd say it's a fishing expedition, especially if you're starting to learn film. You don't go shopping for a party and say, I think everyone will have about 13 M&Ms. You're buy in bulk, because you're getting like, oh, it's a Halloween party, I'll need a lot of this, a lot of that and a lot of this, and then you cook it later. John 41:04You know, one of the best examples of that is connected to Judy Berlin, because as I remember, you edited that movie on the same flatbed that Annie Hall was edited on... Eric 41:18I still have it, because the contract I made with Woody Allen was that if no one ever contacted me for it, and I bore the expense of having to store it, I would keep it. And so I got it and nobody ever asked for it. Nobody uses it anymore. John 41:34But the making of that movie is exactly that. They had a lot of ingredients and they kept pulling things away to what was going to taste the best and all of a sudden, this massive thing … You know, I was just talking to another editor last weekend, o, I pulled out this, the Ralph Rosenblum's book, but... Eric 41:49Oh, yeah, I was just gonna mention that. The best book on editing ever. John 41:51Although Walter Murch's book was quite good. But this is much more nuts and bolts. Eric 41:56And much more about slapping stuff together to make art. John 42:00That one lesson of: don't spend all day on that one take over and over and over. Let's get some other angles is … Eric 42:06I'll tell you what happens. I may have said this in our first interview, but I will tell you from the inside, what happens. It's terrifying and if you start with a master, a director can get terrified, because to move on means more questions about what's next. Was it good? And you can get paralyzed in your master shot if you're shooting in that manner. And then the actors aren't doing their best work in the master, especially if it's a huge master, where there's tons of stuff going on. They're going to give you some better performance, if you intend to go in for coverage and you by the time you do that you may have lost, you know, their natural resource. They might have expended it already. I've been in that situation where I got lost in my master and you almost have to take a pin on set and hit your own thigh with it and say, wake up, wake up, move on, move on. John 42:58Yeah. All right, I got one more lesson for you, because I'm keeping you way too long. It's a really interesting one, because it's when I talked to Edie about it, she didn't know you had done it and she thought, well, maybe it helped. But Barbara Barrie played her mother in Judy Berlin, they had never met as actors, as people. And you kept them apart until they shot, because you wanted a certain stiffness between them. I just call that Using Reality to Your Advantage. What do you think about that idea now? Eric 43:25Edie isn't someone who requires it, you know, she's one of the best actresses in the world. John 43:30And Barbara Barrie wouldn't have needed it either. I'm sure. Eric 43:32She wouldn't have but I do think there's a … look. This is a funny thing about me and my evolution from Through an Open Window, which is the half hour film, to what I'm writing today. I always thought that film was interesting in the same way that I thought military psyops were interesting: that you could control or guide or influence an audience's experience of the story in ways they were unaware of. So, I always liked those hidden influencers. Even in advertising, I thought they were interesting. You see how this company only uses red and blue and suddenly you feel like, oh, this is a very, this is an American staple this product. I love that shit and after I'm done with a script, I know what I'm intending the audience's experience to be I want to find anything to help me to augment that and if you're a fan of that kind of filmmaking, would the shots have a power outside of the audience's ability to see them? They know that the story is working on them and they think the audience thinks, oh, I was just affected by the story in that great performance. They have no idea that the director has employed a multitude of tricks, depth of field to pop certain actor's faces out as opposed to wider shots that exclude are identifying with other characters, moving shots that for some reason, quote unquote some reason meaning every director is aware of how these techniques influence an audience, suddenly make you feel as if that moment in the story of the character are moving or have power have influence while other moments have nothing. In Three Backyards, funnily enough with Edie, I had a scene where Edie was, the whole, Edie's whole storyline was about her desperate, unconscious attempt to connect with this other woman who was a stranger to her. And I refused to show them in a good two shot throughout the entire film. I separated them. I made unequal singles. When their singles cut, they were unequal singles tighter and wider, until the moment that I had convinced the audience now they're going to become best friends. And I put them into their first good, easy going two shot. And that kind of manipulation is done every moment by every filmmaker directing. In one aspect it is a mute, meaning silent in an unobtrusive, persuasive visual strategy for enhancing the story. So, whether you're keeping two actors away from each other during the course of the day before their first scene, because the scene requires tension, or whether you're separating them visually until a moment late in the movie, where they come together, and they're coming together will suddenly have tension because they're in the same shot. Those kinds of persuasive manipulations are what visual storytelling, otherwise known as directing is about. John 43:33Yep, and there's a lot of tools. You just got to know about them because a lot of them you're not going to see, you won't recognize, though until somebody points out, do you realize that those two women were never really in the same shot together? Eric 47:06Every well directed movie has a strategy. Sometimes they're unconscious, but you don't want to be unconscious. As the director, you want to be smart. You want to be informed about your own process, and I think smart directors … Here's what I always say to my students: learn a lot, know a lot, then feel a lot. So, what does that mean? It's just my way of distilling a whole bunch of education down into a simple sentence. Understand what has been done and what you can do, and what are the various modes of directing and storytelling. And then when you get into your own script, feel a lot. What do I want? Why isn't it working? Add a lot of questions marks to the end of sentences. Why can't this character be more likeable? Why isn't this appealing? Why haven't I? How could I? And it's a combination of knowing a lot and being rigorously intellectual about the art form that you want to bow down before you want to bow down before what works and what doesn't work. I would say that you want to bow down before the gods of what works and what doesn't work. You know, you don't want to look them in the eye and say, screw you, I'm doing what I want. You bow down and say, I don't even understand why that didn't work. But I'll take that lesson. You want to feel a lot. You want to be open on the set. One of the hardest things to learn is how to be open on the set. You want to be open when you're writing. You want to be open when you're editing. It's a real juggling act of roles that you have to play, of being naive, being smart, being a businessperson, being a general, being a very, very wounded flower. You know, I remember reading, as a high school student, Gloria Swanson's autobiography. And then it's so many years since I read it that I might be wrong. But I remember they said what are you proudest of in your career. And she said without hesitation that I'm still vulnerable. And I didn't even know if I understood it at the time, but I get it now. You want to be smart. You want to be experienced. You want to have a lot of tools and know the tools of other directors and still be naive and vulnerable and hearable and have your emotional interior in tech. Those are hard things to ask of anyone, but if you want to be in this industry, an art form that so many greats have invested their life's work toiling in, then you owe it to yourself to be all of those things. [MUSIC TRANSTION] JohnThanks to Eric Mendelsohn for chatting with me about the lessons he learned from his debut feature, Judy Berlin. If you enjoyed this interview, you can find lots more just like it on the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. Plus, more interviews can be found in my books -- Fast, Cheap and Under Control -- Lessons Learned from the greatest low-budget movies of all time ... and its companion book of interviews with screenwriters, called Fast, Cheap and Written that Way. Both books can be found on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Google and Apple Books. And while you're there, check out my mystery series of novels about magician Eli Marks and the scrapes he gets into. The entire series, staring with The Ambitious Card, can be found on those same online retailers in paperback, hardcover, ebook and audiobook formats. And if you haven't already, check out the companion to the books: Behind the Page: The Eli Marks podcast … available wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for episode 106 of The Occasional Film Podcast, which was p roduced at Grass Lake Studios. Original music by Andy Morantz. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you … occasionally!

John Gaspard is author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as four other stand-alone novels, "The Greyhound of the Baskervilles," "A Christmas Carl," "The Sword & Mr. Stone" and "The Ripperologists." He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series, under the pen name Bobbie Raymond.  In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films. Those books ("Fast, Cheap and Under Control" and "Fast, Cheap and Written That Way") are available in eBook, Paperback and audiobook formats.

John Gaspard who is a Minneapolis, MN filmmaker joins us on the show today. Once we get past discussing Kubrick, Carpenter, and the movie Dark Star, we talk about his filmmaking journey, some of his feature films including Beyond Bob and Ghost Light, the Minneapolis film scene, and the book on filmmaking that he wrote called Fast, Cheap and Under Control as well as the follow up book called Fast, Cheap and Written That Way. We also touch upon his own podcast, The Occasional Film Podcast.As mentioned in this episode here is the link to the Until the Music Fades IndieGoGo campaign. https://igg.me/at/utmf/x/27030702#/

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with filmmaker Matthew G. Anderson about his hit web series, “Theater People.” LINKSTheater People Website: https://www.theaterpeoplewebseries.com/Theater People on SeekaTV: https://watch.seeka.tv/en/theater-peopleNo Context Theater People on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nocontexttheaterpeople/A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTranscript — Episode 105 [Film Clip 0:00 to 0:32] John Gaspard 00:33That was a soundbite from the Theater People Web series, which was created, written, directed, edited and occasional photographed by today's guest, Matt Anderson. Hello and welcome to episode 105 of The Occasional Film podcast -- the occasional companion podcast to the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. I'm the blog's editor, John Gaspard. I've known Matt Anderson for too many years to calculate -- certainly as a screenwriter and filmmaker, but occasionally as an actor. He even shows up as a waiter in my digital feature, Grown Men.[Film Clip 1:09 to 1:28] In our conversation today, Matt talks about the origins of the Theatre People web series and takes us through the unique challenges he and his team faced bringing each of the four seasons to life. Where did theater people come from? Matt Anderson 01:44Desperation. Don't they all come from desperation? John Gaspard 01:48I guess so. What was your desperate situation? Matt Anderson 01:52I had just not been working, or, more specifically, I'd been working for a really long time writing. I was out in LA, and was doing that thing where you write for free, and nothing ever actually gets made. And I got to a point where I just kind of got tired of that, you know? After a while you kind of would like to see something actually reach fruition. I just kind of hit this point where I felt like, even if it was something just completely do-it-yourself, I just needed to see something I was writing actually get made without needing to, you know, pass through 1000, gatekeepers and sell to a studio in order to see it happen. So, that was pretty much it. I just felt like I wanted to make something truly independently and I hooked up with a producer named Lydia Bolder, who was just getting out of stage management and was looking for a new kind of project and the two of us just kind of started it up. And we brought Crist Ballas on to produce with us and the three of us just kind of made Season One happen without any real sense of whether it would work or not. John Gaspard 03:08All that being said, why did you land on the idea of theater people as your subject matter? Matt Anderson 03:14Just because it seemed like subject matter that would never exhaust itself. I'd been acting for 10 years prior to moving out to LA and I felt like the material was inexhaustible. You know, if you've spent any time in theater, as you know, you have the story, it is just coming fast and furious, like you couldn't, forget enough to not have just a goldmine of good stories and good characters and experiences to draw from. And so that was kind of the idea behind why that world. And then the practical reason was I really just wanted to work with a lot of the people that I'd used to act with. I knew that I knew a ton of really good actors and I felt like this this kind of story would lend itself to a really large cast which would allow me to work with a lot of actors, which was another thing that I wanted to do. Get as many people involved as possible and I knew I had a lot of resources. I knew that, you know, if I was going to be trying to do this completely out of pocket and as inexpensively as possible, playing to the fact that I knew a lot of people with theater spaces and knew a lot of people that would be willing to help me out and let us shoot in them for free. And all of that logistical stuff just made it seem like it was a really economical choice of story, as opposed to doing something like an office set, you know, or a restaurant or any of the other kinds of locations that are just absolute nightmares to line up. I felt like theaters were the ones that were going to be my best shot and this was something that could be primarily shot in theaters. John Gaspard 05:11I had that exact same thought when we did Ghost Light, when I was hanging out at Theater in the Round and realized that the building was only actually in use, really, Friday, Saturday night, Sunday afternoon. The rehearsal room was used in the evening, but there were more than 30 other rooms in that building that were genuinely never used and were kind of interesting. Matt Anderson 05:33Being able to have that kind of access is just, you know, when you can't pay to close a place down, finding a restaurant or a store or an office. And me being me, I still wrote in plenty of restaurants and stores and offices and then we just had to problem solve that. But at least we were able to, for the majority of what we needed, rely on friendly locations that were available to us for cheap. John Gaspard 05:57So, as you were doing that, I remember that in addition to the episodes for Season One you also did I don't know what you would play call them. They were Theater People Minute, a Minute. Matt Anderson 06:10Yeah, the Promo Minutes. John Gaspard 06:12Why did you think to do that? And they were all very funny but if I'm remembering right, aren't they really completely divorced from your main stories? Matt Anderson 06:22Yeah, character-wise, there's no continuity. We just did that because we knew that we needed to, this was my first, I had never done a web series before. I came from a background where I had done a bunch of shorts, and I had done a feature and I had kind of done that sort of those modes. I'd never done something that I was going to need to be able to market and promote and find an audience for and raise awareness of and build a brand and all that kind of stuff. And it was really sort of a learning as we were going sort of thing. So, I knew that we somehow needed to get the idea that we were making a show out there, to start building an audience and bringing people to our Facebook page, even though we didn't have a show yet and you know, getting people interested in when the show was going to launch. And so the Minutes were just a way for us to do something that was in the same spirit of the show, you know. They were silent. So, they were things that we could shoot without needing sync sound, they were short, they were a minute long, set to like old times silent movie music, and they kind of had that feel to them. So, we could shoot them in three hours, and edit them pretty quickly and just put them out there as something that people could watch in a minute and get a sense of what the sense of humor of the show was going to be. The first season was 10 episodes, of eight to 10 minutes a piece. And once we launched, we released one a week, every Friday for two and a half months. And people liked them and we got, you know, a few 100 views every time we'd launch one. And then more people would find them as we released further episodes, and we'd go back and catch up and, and it was good. It was really warm. What was most important to me was when we started it, you know, we didn't have any money and literally nobody got paid and everything was out of pocket and everybody was basically signing on to this big question mark. When I approached them, I think I told everybody, you know, I have no idea how this is going to turn out. I just want to work. Lydia, I and Crist just want to work and so we're going to do this thing and I have no idea if it's going to be any good. I think it's going to be good because it's resting on good writing and great performances and I feel like we can do that but, I said two things. · I said, one, it'll get done. Because that's a big thing, you know, a lot of projects, a lot of independent projects, that actors sign on to, they work on them really hard for you know, sometimes months int the end, and they never see the light of day, you know. You're checking in with the producers like a year later and they're like, our editors trying to fit it in between the other projects, and we're not sure when it's gonna get done and you know, a lot of them just don't get finished. So, I said, this will get finished. · The other thing I said was, you're gonna like your work. I said it'll get finished and you'll like you in the final product and that's really all I can offer. And we had a ton of actors that were willing to come on for this big question mark and just see what happened and, and it worked out well. I think I probably also said, I think it's going to be fun, and I think it has been. I think people have had a good time working on it, which is, as you know, with an independent project always, again, a question mark because, these productions are not cushy, you know. They're a lot of work and it's a lot of scrambling around and I mean, making any kind of film is a ton of work and then for a web series, especially one like this, where I mean, we ended up shooting 35 days, I think over the course of a year. We started in September, and I think we finished in May or June. And it was a really long process and we had all these great actors that were willing to come on for free and just kind of roll with it. And, you know, take the gamble. John Gaspard 10:34Okay, so Series One is a success. What pushed you into, hey, let's do Series Two, and along with that, let's try to raise money via Kickstarter? Matt Anderson 10:46When we finished Season One, there were a lot of questions about what we were going to do next. Because it had turned out well, and people liked it, and people liked working on it, and it definitely did have that sense of, you know, we could go anywhere with it next. And I always had the same answer, which was we'll do another season, if we're able to pay people. Because for me, I think it's perfectly legitimate to ask actors to work for free for a project that you think is going to end up being a good project. And I think actors are used to that and you know, they can always say no, if they're not in a position to do it, which is totally fine. It's no different from theater that way. But my personal philosophy is you get to ask them to work for free once and if you're gonna ask them again, you have to be able to add something to the equation. Like that's just how I wanted to operate. I always said, you know, if we can find a way to put some money together and actually pay people even if it's just a stipend, then we would do a Season Two, or look at doing a Season Two. About a year after we finished Season One we've been doing well, like, we'd still see, I would say probably, like 15 to 20 Episode views a day, I think if I'm remembering correctly. Like just organically, like it was just kind of out there, people would hear about it and, you know, check it out and that was day to day for a year. So, I mean, that was nice, you know. It's just small, grassroots organic growth. And then, about a year after we launched, American Theater Magazine put our link on their Facebook page. I still don't know, I think it was somebody local, specifically who got it to them, I've never really heard what the provenance of it was. And they didn't editorialize it. They weren't like, hey, here's a great show. It was literally just the link, if I recall correctly. And within a week, we had, like, hundreds, if not 1000s of views on top of the, you know, probably couple or 1000 that we've had to that point. My numbers might be wrong. It was a long time ago, but it was huge. It was a huge bump. A lot of people were checking us out because of that American Theater push. And so we were getting all this feedback from all over the place and we were seeing our numbers go up and it was really exciting and totally unexpected. And that was the point where I said, you know, maybe if we're going to look at doing crowdsourcing, which we knew would have to be the next step, if we were going to try and raise money, this would be the time to do it. And so, Lydia and Crist and I kind of put together a Kickstarter campaign to try and raise a budget for a second season. The first season was about independent theater, the second season was going to be about corporate theater. And so we put together a budget for that and put together a Kickstarter and ran the Kickstarter for a month and it was absolutely, unexpectedly exhausting. I had no idea. I had talked to some people about Kickstarter, to get ideas about, like how to run it. I talked to people who had run successful campaigns. I was so completely unprepared for how difficult it was. It was, so much more than a full-time job, but it was successful and, in the end, we had actually a decent amount of money over the amount that we were planning to raise, which was great. It was all worth it, but it was a real learning experience. John Gaspard 14:12What would you say to someone thinking of starting a Kickstarter campaign now, even though it is a couple of years later, and things might be a little different? But what were the big takeaways you got from that exhausting experience? Because I remember watching just how exhausting it was from the sidelines. Matt Anderson 14:29Well, you know, part of it was the way that we approached it, for sure. Like, I don't think every campaign has to be this way, but the way that we approached it, you know, you know me. My strong suit is not going around and asking people to give me money. That's just not anywhere near my comfort zone. And the only way I could really get comfortable with it was I said if we're going to ask for money, I kind of want to sing for our supper. I only going to be comfortable doing this if we are giving something as well, during the campaign. And so what we planned out was we released three videos a week, for the month of the Kickstarter campaign. So, every week, I think it was probably Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we would release a new video. We'd release one video that was like sourced from Season One. So, it'd be like an outtakes reel, or it would be a supercut of every one of the dozens, I think we had 50 some speaking parts in Season One: every one of those actors saying one line or one word from one line, just fun stuff like that. And then on another day, in the week, we'd released what we call our help us pay videos where we introduced a member of our crew and kind of showed what they did. So, help us pay Katie Driscoll, she's our production assistant, these are all the things she does. Help us pay our composer, this is Mike, you know, get to know him a little bit. And they were all just these little one minute videos and again, you know, all of them had the same spirit of the show. I mean, that was kind of the idea, you know, everything was sort of a piece of the project. So, every time we released something, it was like another piece of Theater People. And then, the last video each week would be something sort of more ambitious. So, for one of them, it was another Theater People minute. For one of them, it was a scene between two of our Seasons One characters. One of them had gone to prison at the end of Season One, because really, if you're going to try and do a really easy, quick shoot, what you should do is write it to take place in a prison. That is just smart producing. John Gaspard 16:37Can I suggest something? Why don't you do it out of state, certainly a long way away from your base? Matt Anderson 16:43You know, luckily, we came up with that idea on our own and ended up in Iowa. John Gaspard 16:48Yeah, that makes sense. Matt Anderson 16:51No, this is the thing. I mean, I'll tell you like, I was gonna say the unsung hero, but I think I'm still singing about her. So, hopefully she's the sung hero, but Lydia Bolder and her production magic, like literally, I would just write this stuff, and then say, hey, Lydia, I need a prison. And then she would give me that look and then she'd go get a prison. So, the last video was always something like that, sort of a bigger piece of the puzzle. And so we were releasing videos, like every other day during the week, and obviously, you know, producing anything is exhausting. So, producing at that pace was really difficult and that's on top of the fact that you have to be constantly shepherding your campaign, you know. We were Facebook based, because the Twin Cities, social media wise, is primarily Facebook based. So, we were always on Facebook, you know, we were always, tracking where we were getting the word out, spreading the news about new videos. That was actually a real upside to how we operated. You know, it allowed us to have something new to talk about all the time. So, it wasn't a month of, hey, we're doing this thing, give us some money, and then two days later, having to go back and be like, hey, we're still doing this thing, give us some money. Like, we were able to have a conversation about each video, you know. Instead, it was like, hey, come meet Katie Driscoll, a one minute video just hit our page, you know, and then we can focus on that and then the ask for the campaign was in that video. So, we didn't have to kind of be walking around hat in hand all the time. John Gaspard 18:43You gave them a reason to keep coming back. Matt Anderson 18:46Exactly. John Gaspard 18:47Just the hardest thing to do. Matt Anderson 18:49It was absolutely exhausting and then honestly. And this was advice that was given to me by somebody, who had done a successful campaign, you're emailing literally everyone that you've ever had an email address for. And you're Facebook messaging every single Facebook friend you have, that you can bring yourself, to ask for money from. And, you know, that's just kind of how it works and it's hugely uncomfortable if you're not sort of constitutionally built for that, which I'm really, really not. But really effective, because if people know, especially with a personal ask, and you know me surprise, surprise, I couldn't just send a form letter, like I needed to make a personal reach, check in and, it was really rare, frankly, once you reached out to somebody for somebody not to contribute. I mean, it might not have been much, it might have been five bucks. But that's kind of what we wanted, we weren't angling for big ticket donors. We didn't feel like that's how our show operated. You know, the show for us was really about community and showing that if you make something out of a community, that the community will be there to support it. And so in the end, I think our average donation was something around 20 bucks, which meant we had a lot of people who gave five bucks and we had a lot of people who gave more. And it averaged out to a really nice, manageable reasonable average, which I was really pleased with. John Gaspard 20:25So, you exceeded your goal and with the leftover money thought, what the heck, rather than do Season Two, let's do Season Twoand Three. Matt Anderson 20:33Yeah, well, that was a surprise that came out of the campaign. So, midway through the campaign, I got contacted by Graydon Royce, who was the Minneapolis Star Tribune, theater critic, who I'd met, I think, in passing. He just sent me an email, I think, via Facebook and said, hey, I really love the show, I saw that you're doing the Kickstarter, I hope it's going well. I had an idea for Season Two, if you'd be interested to talk about it. And I said, well, I think I know what Season Twois going to be. But you know, I'm never going to turn down an idea. Let's get together and talk. And we met for coffee, and I just loved his idea. It was just this really fantastic idea. He said, I have this house that my brother and I are renovating. It's our old family home and it's in Mound, Minnesota, about 40 minutes west of the cities. And we were out there working last weekend and it just occurred to me that it might be really funny to have Jamie, the ridiculous Avant Garde director from Season One, if he decided to do a site-specific show. You know, sort of crazy, rundown farmhouse in the middle of nowhere. And then we started spit balling ideas and I was like, yeah, maybe, what if he plans it in the fall, but by the time they do the show, it's winter and so now it's winter in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota, and nobody is aware of what they're getting into, and it just kind of spirals out of control. And I just fell in love with the idea. And so we took a look at the numbers and the money that we'd raised and you know, we'd plan for a month-long shoot for our big season for our corporate season. I said I feel like we could shoot Season Two, if we really scale it back, and I shoot it myself. So, we don't have to worry about bringing in a bunch of crew to do it. Similar to Season One, we did bring in a godsend, Mickey Richardson, who did sound and lights for us, which was beyond I mean, it wouldn't have happened without Mickey. But otherwise, we shot it pretty much like we shot Season One, except it was all in one location. So, we could go out there on a Friday night and basically shoot Friday night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday for three weekends. And we ended up shooting in, you know, what is that seven and a half days. What was originally going to be a shorter season and ended up just being a fewer number of episodes, but the episodes were longer. So, it still ended up being I think about a 90-minute season. So, basically, it's one story as opposed to the A story and the B story. It's basically like a feature film cut up into, you know, six episodes. The first thought was a well maybe that'll be Season Three. But I knew that this one was going to have to play differently. I knew it wasn't going to have the A story and the B story. I'd had this idea about doing it in black and white, because Jaime our director character is very much the sort of person who would think of himself as being Ingmar Bergman, and this season would sort of be from his perspective. And so it allowed us to shoot in black and white, which gave us a lot of leeway because you can shoot faster in black and white than you can when you're shooting in colors. It can speed up and you know, winter in Minnesota and black and white. Like, if you're trying to make something look stark, desolate and foreboding, black and white is the way to go. And so I said if we're going to do it that way, it's got to be Season Two. Because if we have a Season One that's in color, and there's A story and a B story and it's 10 episodes long, and then we have Season Twoand it's in color and there's an a story and a B story and it's 10 episodes long. That's the show, we've established our format for the show. But I said if we sneak this one in between as a six episode thing in black and white, that's kind of the weird offshoot, I said then it kind of opens up the possibilities for the show. Then we've built ourselves some flexibility then, we can kind of do anything. If we really liked that prison location and want to do an entire season in a prison, that could be Season Four. We did not do that because that would have been a terrible idea. But it gave us the flexibility. It just opened up the format to have it be the second season. So we actually did shoot Season Three first. And then while we were wrapping up Season Three, we started the weekend shoots on Season Two. So, I think we shot Season Three in December of that year and started and shot Season Twoon the weekends in January. We were done with everything pretty much by the end of January. John Gaspard 25:01Okay, so you finished Season Two, finished Season Three, what was it that happened that made Season Four happen? Matt Anderson 25:07So, we did Season Two. Season Two was a really interesting experience. Honestly, I have so much love for all of the seasons of the show. Season Two is the is season that if I were to stumble on it, just by accident online, it's the season that I would like the most. I'm a film guy so, like the Bergman thing and the like, ridiculous fake British director. And there's a Fawlty Towers aspect to it like, it really speaks very directly to the stuff that I enjoy. But it was a huge break from our format, and it really threw a lot of people. And we saw our views go down, like from where we were in Season One, it wasn't the same level of enthusiasm. The people who liked it, the people who really responded to it, liked it better, absolutely, like the passion index was much higher for it. But they were also longer episodes and as with anything on the internet, as you increase your episode length, you're going to reduce the number of people who are just going to click in and then watch on a whim, you know, instead of 7 to 10 minutes. Now, our episodes were 12 to 17 minutes, which sounds like not a ton more, but it's like 50% longer. And so like that was a dissuading factor for a portion of our audience. And we definitely had people come up to us and say, hey, I saw Season Two, that's really weird. Season Three is going to be like Season One, though, right? Like, you're gonna go back to that. There were definitely some people who really missed the sitcom format of it and that was, I don't know, it wasn't surprising, I guess, but it was a little disappointing to me. Just because I loved it so much and I felt like it was such an interesting step forward for the show. But I say, I understand why it happened and it made a lot of sense to me. But what was really great was because of the nature of it, because I felt like it was something unique. I felt like it might have some legs on the film festival circuit, which I'd never really considered doing, with the show. I'd been burnt out on the film festival circuit pretty badly, just doing short films. Like my experience was pretty much always you spend a lot of time submitting it to a film festival, your work, whatever it is. And you pay your 50 bucks and then two months later, you get a letter saying how happy they are that you paid your 50 bucks, but they just didn't have a place for you. And then you do it all over again. And so I'd kind of moved past that, you know, it was not something I had anticipated. But I started looking around and I started seeing that more film festivals were having sidebars for web series. And I thought, you know, there's not going to be a lot of black and white Bergman-esque comedy web series out there, I might as well you know, throw our hat into the ring. And so I submitted to a few festivals, and was really surprised that we really started doing well. Like we got into a really high percentage of the festivals that we applied to. I mean, I feel like on average, if you apply to if you're applying to film festivals, I feel like you've got a really good hit to miss ratio if you're getting into 10 to 20%, right? And we got into probably two thirds or more of the festivals that we applied to, which was really great, because it meant that first of all, the show was getting out there, you know, it was finding audiences in a different way than I'd ever expected it to. And also it was just really validating, you know, because when you do see your numbers drop like that, you know that it's not really playing for everybody, you start to kind of second guess yourself a little bit. And it was really validating to have, a curated festival come along and say, we really want to show your show. And then we won some awards and our cast was nominated for Best Ensemble Cast at the New York City Web Fest, which is one of the biggest web fests in the country, if not the biggest. And so like, we started having that reaction, it made a lot more people aware of the show. And it's always difficult to get people to hit the play button and having that kind of legitimacy bestowed on you by people who aren't friends of yours, who aren't people who are in the show, really helped us build an audience. So, that was kind of step one toward raising the profile of the show. And then we did Season Three, we released Season Three later that year, once I was done editing it, obviously. And right before Season Three launched, Minnesota Public Radio, Marianne Combs, did a piece on the show, a really great piece, which by the way, I was completely unprepared for. I thought that was going to be a train wreck. I met with her thinking that we were going to meet to talk about doing a piece and then we sat down and she pulled out a microphone and like, I hadn't been doing any PR for the show for like six months, because I'd been editing. I had no talking points like, I was totally unprepared and that woman is a genius and the piece that she put together was fantastic. Like it was this really great piece, like she integrated some fantastic clips from it and it played on NPR one morning, right around the time, we were launching Season Three. And that same day, I got a Facebook message from a local guy in town named George, who said, I heard the piece on the radio this morning and I'm working with a couple of guys to put together a new social media content platform. And it's going to be geared specifically toward independent web content and it sounds like we should sit down and talk. So, we did we sat down and had a cup of coffee and kind of talked about what their plans were. And over the course of a few months, we talked about--because I'd had the same response to, after we were done with Seasons Two and Three, again--people would start asking, are you gonna do a season four and I had the same response. I said, yeah, we'll do it. If we can pay people more, because we were finally able to pay people for Seasons Two and Three. But I mean, it was a pittance. I think everybody, all the actors in Seasons Two and Three made $100 for the project, you know, whether it was people who were shooting for a month on Season Three, or people who were living in a freezing farmhouse for three weekends for Season Two. 100 bucks for the project, not a lot. And I said if we're going to move forward, same situation, we'll do it if we can pay people more. If we can actually pay a day rate instead of a stipend. And so in talking with, with these guys, who were putting together this platform that's called SeekATV, they said, you know, we're going to be acquiring a lot of shows, like dozens of shows, but we also are interested in producing a handful of original seasons of shows. And Theater People was the first one that they asked, I believe. And they said, would you be interested in, if we could license the first three seasons for our site, we could produce, we can help finance a fourth season. And, you know, it's one of those things that comes up, and you never think it's actually going to pay off because you hear you know, these ideas floating around all the time. And most of the time they don't come through. nd these guys absolutely came through and you know, by June or July, we had a deal in place for them to produce the fourth season of Theater People with a budget of about five times what we had made, Season Two and Season Three for. So, a significant step up in terms of what we were able to work with for a budget. John Gaspard 32:55So, with Season Four, though you're going with longer episodes. Matt Anderson 32:59Yeah, they were looking for something more around the 15-minute mark, like the 15-to-20-minute mark, and most of our episodes for Season Four are about 15. John Gaspard 33:07Which is closer to the traditional 22 minutes of standard sitcom? Matt Anderson 33:11Yeah, and that was actually the appeal for me, like when we got our deal put down, and they said, we'd like your episodes to be somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes, there was sort of a moment of creative, well, it turned out to be hubris on my part. Because I went, hey, we get to make a sitcom, that's great, that's really exciting. Like, this is a terrific creative challenge. That was really short sighted of me. It meant that now we were going to be dealing with, instead of 150 pages of content, 200 pages of content, which is a lot more content. John Gaspard 33:53Now, let's just back up and do the math on that. You're saying 200 pages of content is more content than 150 pages of content? Matt Anderson 34:01I don't have the numbers in front of me. But we worked it out and 200 It turns out is a significant percentage more than 150. And we had budgeted for, you know, more or less the Season Three model, like a 10-to-15-minute episode. And so, we had budgeted in terms of both money and in terms of schedule for that kind of a production. And now, as excited as I was about it, I very quickly realized, we signed on for suddenly 25% more show. And that then became the challenge for Season Four, was how do we develop it in such a way from a production point of view that we can with this budget that we've got. Which was primarily Seeka put up the lion's share of the budget and then we raised the rest of it from individual investors. And then it was figuring out okay, well, how do we do this show right? How do we do this show in a way that we are compensating people the way that we'd like to be compensating them and we're getting done the work that we need to get done and the show is a legitimate step up from what we've done before. Like, if we do a show, at this new budget level, ends up looking like what we did for 20% of this budget previously, that's going to kind of be a failure. It should look better, it should look like a marked step up from what we've been doing before. Like this is our chance to show what we can do with more resources. And so that was the goal with this one was to make a show that really represents an advance on what we've been able to do previously. John Gaspard 35:49How did you do that? What were the key things you focused on to make that happen? Matt Anderson 35:53From a development point of view, the real key was embracing it as a sitcom and by that, I mean, the show had always been sort of arranged in a way that I really liked. But if you watch an episode of Theater People, aside from Season Two, which was its own beast. From Seasons One or Three, we're all over the place. Like an episode will hop from an apartment to a theater to a street to another theater to an office. We needed to find a way to embrace the idea of sort of a single set sitcom, you know. It was never going to be a single set, but, if you watch a sitcom and especially like, the shows that I really love, like I'm a huge fan of Community. Community is a little rangy, but the majority of an episode of Community takes place in the study room. Cheers is in the bar, most of Seinfeld is in Seinfeld's apartment. It's not that you never go outside, it's just that the majority of what you're doing takes place in one location. And we've never done that before. And so for Season Four, what we decided was we are going to embrace this idea of being a real sitcom and as with the other seasons, we wanted to look at a different kind of theater. So, Season One had been independent theater, Season Two was site specific theater, Season Three was corporate theater. And for Season Four, I felt like, because we were looking at being on a new platform that I felt was probably going to want to be appealing to like college kids like 20 somethings like a younger audience than we had necessarily been skewing toward in our previous seasons, I felt like Youth Outreach Theater was the way to go. I had been a member of a Youth Outreach Theater in high school for a year and a half and it was a huge part of my sort of getting into theater. And I knew that the material was there as well. And it put us in a position where we could be dealing with a younger cast than we'd had before. You know, a lot of 20 somethings. Our youngest principal cast member literally started college the day of our readthrough. And it also meant that we could base out of basically their headquarters, their homeroom, which is this, you know, supposed to be a room in this college and it turns out to be the costume locker in the basement. But it allowed us to shoot probably 80% of what we were doing in this one controlled room, which really was the only way that we were going to be able to crank out the amount of material we needed to on the schedule that we had there. John Gaspard 38:22So, you had a different aesthetic designed for Season Four, tell me a little bit about that. Matt Anderson 38:26Yeah, well, the aesthetic was kind of… I would have brought Amber back on if I could have to shoot Season Four as well. But logistically, knowing that we were going to have to be moving as fast as we were with a nine person principal cast, which meant scheduling was already going to be really difficult, and she is a busy shooter and it just seemed like it was going to be logistically impossible. And on top of that, most of our shooting was going to be taking place in this little tiny room where every extra body really makes a difference. And so we kind of were in a position where we had to run lean again, which is what we're used to. We've never had a crew of more than four or five people. But we had to keep to that again and it just made sense for me to operate. I was feeling comfortable enough, I was pleased with how Season Two looked, having somebody who was lighting it for me in particular being important and Mickey was back. He actually produced Season Four and he was also our gaffer, and our lighter are all around go to tech equipment guy. And again, like this season wouldn't have happened without him being there. You have to have somebody on set, John, who knows what they're doing. This is what I found, you might only need one, no, you need two because you also need a sound guy and we had Nathaniel who did the sound for Season Three for us. But you have to have those two people who know what they're doing as Kevin Costner, I think, would tell you. As long as you've got people around you who know what they're doing, you can do a pretty good job. And that was the situation. I felt comfortable enough shooting it myself, because we were going to adopt this aesthetic of having it be handheld, everything that's down in the room is handheld. And that was, you know, largely born out of just necessity. Like we traditionally, I get absolutely nothing usable from the first day of shooting, this has just always been my experience, I should plan on it and I still never do. John Gaspard 40:27You should start on day two then. Matt Anderson 40:30Right, give everybody a day off. Now, Season Two, we had to be up and running on day one. But usually there's a bit of a learning curve going into it. And the learning curve with Season Four was we were going to shoot, I was planning on having everything locked down just because it takes a little bit of the responsibility off of me to be able to actually operate the camera. But we tried shooting in that room on a tripod, and it was just not going to be tenable. We just weren't gonna be able to move fast enough. Like, every time we moved, it required a different lighting setup. And there frankly, wasn't enough room in the room to have a full tripod setup. I mean, for a lot of different reasons, it just really quickly made sense that, okay, we're gonna do sort of a, you know. I've been watching a lot of Veep, so like, when I sat down to write Season Four, I was looking for good inspiration. I had already stolen everything I could from Community for Seasons Two and Three. So, I needed something new. So, I sat down, and I watched Veep and Silicon Valley, both of which are fantastic. And the Veep aesthetic, the sort of run and gun, let that be part of it, you know, that sort of fly on the wall feeling. And you know, we were able to emulate that. We didn't go so far into it that it ever feels documentary. But it does definitely have a looseness, it definitely had, it gave us the flexibility to have less of a restrictive lighting setup. So, we could sort of light the room and just let the camera go where the camera needed to go as much as possible. And that just meant that we were able to shoot a lot faster than we would be able to do. And because it was looser like that, I felt more comfortable operating because it didn't need to look composed and perfect. It needed to just have the right energy, and basically be pointing at the right people at the right time. And as long as I knew who I needed on camera, when I needed them on camera, it allowed me to operate pretty quickly, it worked out really well. And you know, the upside to having a good director of photography is that you have a good director of photography. The downside of having another a separate director of photography is that that's another layer of communication and well, I would say on most productions, it's absolutely worth that. On this one, because we were going to need to be moving as quickly as we were, it was really helpful for me to just be able to know what I needed to get and get it, as opposed to having to try and effectively convey that information to somebody else who was going to have to execute it. And then probably have to go and watch it myself on a monitor to make sure that it was what I wanted. You know what I mean? It's in order to move fast and when we needed to move fast. It just made more sense for me to do it and I'm pleased with the results. If we had a better director of photography, I have no doubt that they would have brought another level of production quality to it. Like, it would have been another step up on that front, but we'd still be shooting. John Gaspard 43:30Well, then you wouldn't be able to talk to me right now. Matt Anderson 43:31That's true, I'd be in the middle of a shoot and dealing with mass mutiny on the part of all of my cast and crew, I have no doubt. John Gaspard 43:38Most likely. So, you've pretty much covered most of the pro side of when it comes to you being the writer, director, shooter, editor. Matt Anderson 43:47Yeah, the pro is if you're doing it all, you know that you're going to be there, and you can prioritize the work in a way that you're not going to be able to afford to have other people prioritize the work. You know, I do always bring on the most important crew position in a lot of ways is your sound recordist. I remember, did you ever see, In The Company of Men? John Gaspard 44:12Yeah. Matt Anderson 44:13Got that movie, I remember watching the DVD of it, so that was Neil LaBute's first movie. And I will always remember this: he was talking about how his sets don't look very good, which they don't. Like if you look at a shot in that movie, it looks like what it is, it looks pretty amateur. But he said his belief--and I don't know where he picked it up or whatever it stuck with me forever--he said people will accept a movie that looks like crap, as being an aesthetic. As long as it's consistent, they will absolutely watch a movie no matter what it looks like and just assume that that's an intentional choice. No one will watch a movie with bad sound because that's never a choice, it's always a deal breaker. And so, I use the guy that I uses name is Nathaniel and Nathaniel is fantastic. Nathaniel recorded a lot of Season Three for us and that was really important to have a sound recordist and then he also mixes for us, which is great because, he can record in such a way that he knows what he needs when he gets to the mixing part of the process. But yeah, then you're in a position where you know, Nathaniel's got a job, you know, he's got other projects, other things that potentially are going to be prioritized over this. He does a really great job of prioritizing us and of hitting the deadlines that we need and I'm not really sure how he does it? But it's really difficult to ask that of people when you're not able to pay them something commensurate to what they're making on a corporate project, or on their day job doing this. So, the nice thing about doing it yourself is you're personally driven to get it done and to do it as well as it can be done, and you are able to prioritize it ahead of kind of everything else because that's just your role. You know, your job is to kind of make it the most important thing in your world while you're doing it. John Gaspard 46:03That's all well and good. But what's the downside of wearing all those hats? Matt Anderson 46:08It'll kill you. I'm not done yet, John, which is why we're able to have this conversation. It's way too much. I mean, honestly, like, I have overreached, which is good. That's how much you can reach, you overreach, and then you go, I won't do that that way again. But that is the position that I've put myself in, it was just, it was a lot, it was shooting, you know, like I say, 200-page script over the course of we started in the middle of September, I was still doing pickup shoots in February. So, again, I'm not a math guy, but that's, you know, at least two or three months. John Gaspard 46:52How do they tell, them how they can seek out Seeka? Matt Anderson 46:55Seeka is amazing. And this is what I loved about Seeka: from the first time I heard about what they were trying to do, when I started making a web series, I had never seen a web series, I might have stumbled across something. But it was probably something pretty high profile, like Funny or Die. The problem is with web series, they're just out there. But unless you know that they're out there, it's like a cool club, you know, you only know it's there, if you already know it's there. Which is neat for a cool club, but not neat for a web series that you would actually like people to find. And what Seeka's whole mission was, let's make a hub for quality, independent web content, so that people can just go to one place and find 50, 60, 70, 100 shows and find what they like, you know. There's no more searching around. And when I started, Season One of Theater People, it was hard to figure out even what to watch, to know what to emulate, you know, because unless you knew what to Google like, and you could Google like best web series out there, but you're gonna get like five or six different shows. And there's 100 shows, at the time, there was probably already hundreds of shows out there. So, Seeka's whole model was, let's make a place where you can find a lot of great shows, of a lot of different types from all over the world in one place. Watch them easily, it's free, it's subscription free, there's the opportunity to contribute to a show, you can tip the show, after you watch an episode, there's a little button if you want to kick in a buck, or three bucks, or however much you want to kick in. And that money goes largely like generously, largely to the content creators. I forget what the actual split is. But it is a generous split in favor of content creators, because they want content creators to want to be on Seeka. The only way this works for them as if they've got people who want to have their stuff on the platform and so they have to make it attractive. Also, they're just really great guys and I don't think they want to screw anybody over. But like, they need to have a good platform in place in order to have the kind of content that's going to make their platform successful. And I have found some fantastic stuff on there. Like I feel very privileged to be airing alongside some of the stuff that they have on there. And I know that as they move forward, you know, the goal is going to be to continue to find that really high quality stuff. And they're going out to festivals, and they're getting the stuff that's winning the awards at festivals, and they're really doing a great job of finding the kind of content that is sort of ready for primetime, in the web series landscape and it's great. John Gaspard 49:37So, I'm going to wrap this up with a closest thing to a Barbara Walters question that I would ever ask anybody, which is, I don't remember how many years ago, young Matt Anderson drove home from Los Angeles with his new Rebel camera with the idea of creating theater people or something like that? Matt Anderson 49:56Pretty close to that. John Gaspard 49:57What would you want to say to him? If you could just give him a call, because you've been through quite a bit here, what have you walked away with, that would be helpful for him or anybody else starting something that turns out to be quite this massive. Matt Anderson 50:10You know, honestly, I would say this: I've been really fortunate. A lot of it would be validation of the ideas that I had coming into it, there have absolutely been discoveries, there have been so many discoveries. I'm actually teaching a course called web series one on one right now. There is so much knowledge that I have just had to find via trial and error over the last five years that it's absolutely, I'm still learning all the time, you know. You learn how to make the show, you learn how to put the show out there, you learn how to find an audience, you learn how to promote it, you learn how Facebook works, if you want to get the word out to more people, you know, like all of that stuff. But honestly, I think the most important thing that I would say would be the general idea that I had, which was that, if you've got good material, and great actors, that is all you need, like I really and direct them, that's what you have to do, you have to direct them. That actually is also super important, because actors are supposed to be working with the director, you know, the director is the one who knows how everything fits together. And I think part of the reason that I'm as proud of our casts and all of our casts, like, every season, including Season Four, which has a ton of young actors and a ton of actors. For the first time, I'm dealing with a cast where I haven't worked with most of the principal actors before, because I've been working with actors that I used to act with 10, 15 years ago, and a bunch of them are still around, and a bunch of them are still in the show. But for this, you know, Youth Outreach Theater, we needed people who could pass as college students. And so we had to go out and find them. And this cast is as fantastic as any we've had and that's why the show works. Like it really is, and you know, different shows are different, some shows are effects driven, some shows are, you know, location driven. So, I'm sure you know, there's lots of things that draw people into a show. But for this show, the key has always been having a really great ensemble, you know, having an ensemble that doesn't seem like they're doing an amateur project, you know, having an ensemble that is delivering work that is on par with something that you would see on broadcast television. I really believe that is why the show has traveled as well as it has. I believe that's why it's played, the festivals, that attract, that it has, I think that's why Seeka wanted to come on and produce a fourth season. And that was always the idea was the Twin Cities have this amazing pool of actors. And now you know, specifically I'm talking about, where I'm making stuff in Minneapolis, like what we have is this fantastic, deep pool of acting talent. And so I built a show around it. And the show works because that's the engine and these guys are fantastic and that's what I would say would be just continue to have faith in the idea that if you've got good writing and great actors, you don't need to be a great camera person. You don't need to have all the technical stuff down, you don't need to have a jib arm, you don't need the equipment that you don't know how to use, you don't need a 10 person crew. Like this show is about really good actors delivering hopefully really good dialogue in a way that is compelling and that tells a story from start to finish. And I think that has borne itself out as being a really viable method. And the nice thing is you don't need to do that in a studio, you know what I mean? You don't need to do that with a million dollars behind you. You can do it effectively on the scale that we've been doing it. That's the best thing that I could say like if I was whether I was talking to myself or anybody else, especially in Minneapolis,making stuff that would be what I would say was find really great actors and then work with them and trust them because that's the goal. That's why I like watching the show. [Film Clip 54:24 to 54:38]. John Gaspard 54:38Thanks to Matt Anderson for chatting with me about creating the Theater People webs series, which you can find online at SeekTV.com – check the show notes for a direct link to all four seasons. If you liked this interview, you can find lots more just like it on the Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. Plus, more interviews can be found in my books -- Fast, Cheap and Under Control -- Lessons Learned from the greatest low-budget movies of all time ... and its companion book of interviews with screenwriters, called Fast, Cheap and Written that Way. Both books can be found on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Google and Apple Books. And while you're there, check out my mystery series of novels about magician Eli Marks and the scrapes he gets into. The entire series, staring with The Ambitious Card, can be found on Amazon in paperback, hardcover, ebook and audiobook formats. That's it for episode 105 of The Occasional Film Podcast. Produced at Grass Lake Studios. Original music by Andy Morantz. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you … occasionally!

John Gaspard talks about SPEECH TO TEXT AND BACK AGAIN. He discusses writing while walking (and how you'll never get your best ideas on a treadmill); tips for easing the process; expectations of the content you'll produce; opportunities for repurposing content; and the indy ability to experiment. Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out 2 MINUTES OF INDY https://bit.ly/2MinutesOfIndy, where over the week following the airing of the episode, you'll find brief video clips from the interview on each of those topics. You can also catch up on some highlights of previous episodes there. Transcript and show notes at https://www.theindyauthor.com/podcast.html Did you find this information useful? Please consider supporting The Indy Author! https://www.patreon.com/theindyauthor https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattydalrymple John Gaspard is author of the Eli Marks mystery series, the Como Lake Players mystery series, and four stand-alone novels. He hosts two podcasts: "Behind the Page: The Eli Marks Podcast," and "The Occasional Film Podcast.” John has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking, and ironically, those books made more than the films. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several greyhounds, a few cats, and a handful of pet allergies.

Interview with John Gaspard, author of the Eli Marks mystery series.You can support the podcast today by buying me a coffee.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/reading-and-writing-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

John is author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as four other stand-alone novels, "The Greyhound of the Baskervilles," "A Christmas Carl," "The Sword & Mr. Stone" and "The Ripperologists." He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series, under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films.Those books ("Fast, Cheap and Under Control" and "Fast, Cheap and Written That Way") are available in eBook, Paperback and audiobook formats. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. Eli Marks Website:  http://www.elimarksmysteries.comEli Marks Podcast: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/eli-marks-podcastAll Other Books:  https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com Today's episode is brought to you by John's full series of crime thrillers available right now. You can get them through Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/John-A.-Hoda/e/B00BGPXBMM%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share  You can also sign up for the newsletter at http://www.JohnHoda.com to get a free copy of John's new novella Liberty City Nights. Thank you for listening. If you have a moment to spare please leave a rating or comment on Apple Podcasts as that will help us expand the circle around our campfire. If you have any questions please feel to reach out to me via my website http://www.johnhoda.com

Today we welcome John Gaspard to our show! John is a writer, filmmaker and podcaster with 40 years experience in the world of indie film. From his early beginnings on Super 8 to the now digital age, John has traveled the roads of this industry in its many forms and has managed to examine the art in all its facets! With his novels, "Fast, Cheap and Under Control & Fast, Cheap and Written That Way, John dives into what some of the top indie filmmakers and writers have to say about making it in this industry! We also discuss the advantages filmmakers have when they don't have a budget and how that can actually help them creatively! From cutting your films to distribution. We go through a ton of valuable information for filmmakers! Take a seat and enjoy our conversation with Mr. John Gaspard!https://www.amazon.com/John-Gaspard/e/B001JOXRZ6%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_sharehttps://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Entrepreneur Swag Shop! Get your swag! Identity is about being who you are meant to be! Use coupon code AROUNDTHEREEL & save 15%! Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched! Start for FREESupport the show

Director Lee Wilkof talks about the production of his film, “No Pay, Nudity” (starring Gabriel Byrne and Nathan Lane), as well as his work as an actor on the musicals “Little Shop of Horrors” and “Assassins.”LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast“No Pay, Nudity” trailer: https://youtu.be/toO8g8fgtP4Lee Wilkof revisits “Suddenly Seymour”: https://youtu.be/x7DNEts0yQQ“Suddenly Seymour” from MDA Telethon: https://youtu.be/b4tddRw6JVU“Little Shop” TV spot: https://youtu.be/itYxORbajScTRANSCRIPTThe Occasional Film Podcast - Episode 103NATHAN LANE 0:00I had one of the best times I've ever had making a movie doing this, this little teeny-tiny film. One could say it's a niche film. And yet I think everyone can relate to the notion dreams lost or shattered and you think it's going to turn out one way and it doesn't. And how do you come to terms with that? JOHN GASPARDThat was the one and only Nathan Lane talking about his experiences making Lee Wilkof's lovely film, “No Pay, Nudity.” Hello, and welcome to episode 103 of the Occasional Film Podcast, the occasional companion podcast to the Fast Cheap Movie Thoughts blog. I'm the blog's editor, John Gaspard. Today we're talking with long time actor and first-time director Lee Wilkof about his film “No Pay, Nudity.” It's the story of Lester Rose, a mid-career actor in crisis about show business in particular, and life in general. It stars Gabriel Byrne, Frances Conroy, Boyd Gaines, Donna Murphy, and Nathan Lane. [AUDIO EXCERPT FROM THE FILM'S TRAILER]When I saw the name Lee Wilkof listed as director during the film's credits, I thought where do I know that name from? I racked my brain and then it came to me. Suddenly.[LEE WILKOF SINGING “SUDDENLY, SEYMOUR”]Lee originated the role of Seymour Krellborn in the Off Broadway production of a little musical called “Little Shop of Horrors,” and went on to originate the role of Samuel Bick in Stephen Sondheim's “Assassins.” He talked about those two memorable roles at the end of our conversation. But first we talked about “No Pay, Nudity”, which was his first time as a film director. Tell me what it was that made you decide, hey, at this point after stage and TV and movies, I want to direct.LEE WILKOF 3:20 It was something that was gnawing at me for the last 10 years, just something that I always wished I had done. I never said I wish I wasn't an actor, and I wish I had been a director. But it was something that I just felt that I thought I could do. And I would say oh, maybe nine years ago, I was in a kind of a fallow period and I had been friendly with this young man, Ethan Sandler, we had met at this theatre festival, the Williamstown Theatre Festival. We've done a play together. He was a young, in his 20s, maybe, maybe early 30s. And I decided, I said I think we should I have this idea for a story. Let's write it together. And let's direct it together and then we'll write it for me. As it shook down, you know, I'm not, it wasn't for me, I decided it was not something that I didn't want to direct it and be in it. And then I realised the character was I was not really, the right character for it. And then as it turned out, we didn't end up co-directing it and he got the screenplay credit. And that was kind of how it played out. But it took it took and we wrote it I think together eight years ago and then it sat in my on my computer for at least five years and then I dusted it off when I was doing a play in Chicago, and I was free during the days and I looked at it and I said, this is good. I happen to be working with Nathan Lane. And we were doing a play at the Goodman “The Iceman Cometh.” And I said, I said, would you read this, this screenplay that I wrote. And I was hoping he'd get back to me eventually. And he got back to me the next day. And he said, This is really good. And I said, would you play Herschel, if I got this made? And he said, Yes. And that's really when the ball started to roll. JOHN GASPARD 5:35 Why did you decide you weren't right to play the part? Because it kind of feels like you would be. I mean, was just you didn't want to direct and act? LEE WILKOF 5:42 I didn't want to direct and act. To say that I wasn't right for it, I think, didn't mean, as it turned out, I wanted more of a leading man. But it would have worked, I think with a character actor, but I didn't want me directing my first film. I just couldn't do double duty. I admire those people that can, but I just I just couldn't. I couldn't multitask to that level. And maybe this had a little to do with it. Although I think I'd already made the decision by the time the investors came on, and they wanted a name, and I was certainly not a sufficient name. I was not. I was not and I'm not a name. So, we started making some inquiries about some names. JOHN GASPARD 6:34 So, what was your process for that? I mean, you already had one name, who had said yes.. LEE WILKOF 6:39 I had Nathan, and that was they wanted for the lead, they wanted a name. But we made some offers to some prominent names. And one was one was very interested, but his wife was ill. Several didn't get back to me. One other prominent name just was on the fence and decided no, and then I got a casting director, involved and gave me a list of a number of names. And Gabriel was on it, Gabriel Byrne, and it, sent it to him. And he responded immediately. And he wanted, he wanted to do it. He understood it, he got it. And I couldn't be more fortunate that it worked out that way. If you would have said to me when I started the process, and we were going to make this film, that Gabriel Byrne would be playing Lester Rosenthal, it was not something I would have not believed it possible. I would have said to you, I don't I'm not really positive that he's right for it. And you know, these kinds of accidents happen. And it was so fortuitous that we got Gabriel, I think he's just fantastic in the role. JOHN GASPARD 7:52 Did you find that once you had everyone in place, did you tweak the script at all to fit? LEE WILKOF 8:00 Yes, to some extent, although the Gabriel, the fact that Gabriel is you know, there's a line that when you first, when he runs into the girl from high school, she said when you first got here, your accent was so fascinating. That's the only reference to the fact that he has a not necessarily an American accent. It's not quite fish or fowl. And we didn't find that it was a problem. When he first called me. Our first phone conversation was I was at the Jazz Fest in New Orleans with music blaring. And he was in Norway, shooting I think it's called the Vikings. And we spoke, I could barely hear him. But he said I think I'm going to keep my accent. And I didn't quite know what to say. I didn't know him. I didn't want to say no, I don't want you to but by the time we started shooting, it was kind of vague, and it never seemed to be an issue. So, we didn't necessarily tweak for the particular person. Now, some of the actors wrote some things for themselves. Nathan contributed a fair amount of his dialogue, which I encouraged. And then there was an incident where somebody brought in dialogue for themselves and I did not care for it. And it created the only real conflict during shooting. And I insisted, with the help of my producer, insisted that the actor speak the words written and it I think it enhanced the performance because the actor was so upset. And the actor didn't speak to me for a couple of days.But there was tweaking all along. The role Nathan plays was originally written for actually another actor, an actor friend of mine who had passed away in between the time it was written and we shot it. It was written with, I wrote it with Maury Chaykin. You know, Maury… JOHN GASPARDYes indeed. LEE WILKOF Maury Chaykin. He and I did our first play in New York together like 44 years ago. And he was just physically and such a, such a wonderful actor that Herschel was I just wrote it, we wrote it for him. But as I said, he passed away. And Nathan stepped into it brilliantly, I think. JOHN GASPARD 10:44 I agree. So, with all your time on the other side of the camera, what was it like to step behind it? And how easy a transition was that for you? I mean, you probably know how to talk to actors, or at least how not to talk to actors… LEE WILKOF 10:59 I had spent many years in Hollywood on TV and film sets. And I probably would have paid way more attention if I knew someday I was going to be directing. But I always was paying attention. I wasn't like going up to the DP and saying, You know what size lens you're using? But I was I was like, I watched and I listened. And I also had the I had the great pleasure and the great fortune of working with Sidney Lumet twice. And I didn't do a movie with him, but I'd worked with Bob Fosse. I mean, I've been around some, some very amazing people, and I observed them as closely as I could without being in their way. So being on the set itself, physically, was not was not intimidating at all. Speaking to the actors. No one was with the exception of that one little set-to with the actor that rewrote their lines, the actors were very, I didn't have to give many notes. But when I gave notes, I was surprised that not only were they well received, but they were well understood. Because I've been directed. I'm an I'm an actor that needs as strong a good hand as possible by a director. So, I've had many directors have to talk to me to get me to what they need to do. And there was like, just like maybe two or three times. Gabriel had so much to do, there were times where I had to, like, maybe guide him and another just a little nudge, and he liked to talk things out. He probably would have wanted to talk things out longer, but we just didn't have the time. That's just how he works. One of my actors would call me up at night, and just need to be stroked. And he's a good friend of mine. And I was able to do that. I had worked with him in a play and knew that that was something that he needed. And I was sincerely telling him how wonderful he was because he was and that was useful. The first scene in the movie with the veterinarian's assistant, I cast this woman I love this actress. Her name is Janine Serralles. I don't think she'd be embarrassed by this story. She was a student of my wife, my wife used to teach at Yale Drama School. And she was somebody that I was aware of her, and my wife cast her in a lot of plays. She came in with an interpretation that was completely and it was completely valid, but it was not what I wanted her to do. And I think I like said maybe two sentences to her. And she's such a great actress, she made the adjustment. And I surprised myself by being able to communicate that to her. But luckily, I had an actress that could take it, you know, take it in and make that quick adjustment. So, I cast the film with such fine actors, that I didn't have to tell them too much. But when I did, they got it. JOHN GASPARD 14:20 Right. Did you have rehearsal time away from the set? Or was it just like, like a TV show where you just show up and block and rehearse? LEE WILKOF 14:28 We did read through the movie for about four hours, I think a couple days before we started shooting. And we talked it through and we would rehearse on the set. But my DP, my wonderful young DP, named Brian Lannon. He was he was 26 years old. I met him I had done a couple episodes of a show called High Maintenance. And he was the DP and I loved what I saw. And I hired him and he and his crew were a little, I have to say this, and I think he knows is they were a little slow. Andnd they were slow because they were, you know, immaculate with, with their setting up. But we had a little more time sometimes than I wanted. So, we were able to rehearse. And the actors, all the actors, the first nine days of the shoot, were in the lounge set that we built the Actors Equity lounge, and the actors would be in a holding area, and they would work on the stuff while I was on the set, you know, getting things set up. JOHN GASPARD 15:40 Was that the only set you built? LEE WILKOF 15:41 We built I think we built another set. I believe you are required to build a set on certain sound stages that are designated by the state in order to get your tax credit. So, we were required to build a set. It was one of the plays that was getting done. We could have found a theatre to do it at, but it was the one that was most easy to build. So, we built that, we had some raw space down in Wall Street. And that's where we built the Actors Equity lounge. And then we built one other set for the two-hander play that Lester attends. JOHN GASPARD 16:35 The lounge set is terrific. It looks, I thought oh, yeah, it's you're actually on location. LEE WILKOF 16:41 Yeah, we wanted to use the real Actors Equity lounge, but it was in a state of transition, it was finally being renovated. And it just timewise we couldn't use it. But luckily, I had a friend of mine is one of the, I think I know most of the officers there. My friend is a vice president and they were really helpful. But I had a young production designer Maki Takenouchi. And she put that together in three days. It was the last location that we found. It was the most crucial location, it was driving us insane, that we couldn't find the space we liked. But we finally settled on this. And they threw it together. And I don't mean throw it together. They put it together in three days, her and her crew. And it really was effective. JOHN GASPARD 17:35 How many days did you have to shoot overall? You said you spent nine days in the lounge? LEE WILKOF 17:40 I believe it was either 24 or 25 days. And I wanted to read I had a scene that I wanted to end the film with that I wanted to add, and we would have had to have a day of shooting but we just didn't have it in the budget. There's nothing that I miss. JOHN GASPARD 18:04 Okay. Was it always planned that the character of Herschel would narrate the story? LEE WILKOF 18:11 No. JOHN GASPARD 18:12 At what point did you decide to include that? LEE WILKOF 18:15 When certain people thought it would be a good idea. JOHN GASPARD 18:19 Okay. I'll move on. LEE WILKOF 18:25 Some people weren't as comfortable with silence as I was. So, some compromises were made to be perfectly blunt. I'm assuming you wisely got it that it was added on. I believe film works with it. And I believe the film would have worked without it. JOHN GASPARD 18:41 And that's exactly what I'm feeling to it. It certainly didn't hurt, it kind of it filled in some gaps. But it didn't feel to me like when you sat down to write at the very first thing you thought was, okay, I'm going to have this character narrate it LEE WILKOF 18:58 No. But it was I've had people that watch the film like it, and people go, Yeah, you don't need it. Okay, I'm glad you know, I feel fine about it either way. It is. It's what we have. JOHN GASPARD 19:13 Yeah. Do you want to talk about the Kickstarter campaign and... LEE WILKOF 19:18 It was not successful. I'm assuming you know that. It was very highly, highly ambitious. I think it was, uh, if memory serves me, it was like $450,000, which is a ton of money for a Kickstarter campaign. And we did nicely, but we didn't succeed. I think we got close to $200,000, which is very, I was, I was, I was touched by all the generosity, but it didn't work out. But because of the Kickstarter campaign, certain people became aware of the film. And then were able to communicate their knowledge of the film to some other people that came aboard and invested in the film. So, the Kickstarter campaign had value. Also, I did circle back to some people on the Kickstarter that had that had committed money to the Kickstarter campaign and said to them, would you still be willing to, to help me out? I'm not going to give the same kind of perks. But if you can give me, if you can help, a couple people got associate producer credits, everybody got their name in the credits, everybody got a video, no matter what the level, so that was helpful. But it was not the amount of money that, I didn't go to back to everybody. I just was like, at that point, I had had my hand out for so long, I couldn't go, like with my hand out to every single person. That was more stressful than making the movie. JOHN GASPARD 21:04 So, I was going to ask, what advice would you give to someone who is considering Kickstarter now that you've tried to get that and then end up going with more traditional investors? LEE WILKOF 21:14 I would say don't ask for so much money. But don't go nuts with the, with the perks. People are really, I don't believe, giving you, being generous for little rewards. Or I don't mean to belittle the rewards, but they're doing it out of the kindness of their, you know, belief in you. Some guys I know, did a Kickstarter campaign to do in a documentary film about something to do about my hometown. And they did I think, a 40-day campaign, and I said, Don't do it, it's too long, and you'll have like a nervous breakdown. And they did it and they raised the money. So, what the hell do I know? JOHN GASPARD 21:58 I noticed that you had Ann Roth credited for a special custom consultant. What? What way did she help you guys out? LEE WILKOF 22:08 Ann Roth is as to me, she's, you know, the premier costume designer of the second part of the 20th century, Edith Head and then Ann Roth into the 21st century. I had worked with Anne on a couple plays. I did The Odd Couple with Nathan Lane on Broadway and Ann designed that. But we had a very nice, warm relationship. And I told her, someday I'm going to direct a film and I want you to be the costume designer, and then she would if she could. And then as it turned out, she agreed to and then she got busy. And another lovely woman that works in her with her, became the costume designer. Michelle Matlin who did a great job. But Ann specifically worked with, because she's done so many shows with Nathan, they work together on his look, and Gabriel's look. And I said to her, I hope you know, I hope this is not a diss to Michelle and I don't believe it was, but I would like I would like you and to give you some sort of credit. You're Ann Roth. I mean, it's and she said whatever you want to give me. So, we gave her that title. JOHN GASPARD 23:41 As you were editing the movie, I know you've you were very in from the beginning on the writing and then I've obviously there for the directing. What was your process for finding the movie in the editing? How, how precious were things to you? How willing were you to move things around or change? LEE WILKOF 23:58 That is a very, we're opening. We're opening a very interesting can of worms. Editing was the most difficult part of the process for me. I'd never been in an editing room. My editor and I, I think sometimes we didn't see eye to eye. And I didn't really sometimes know how to communicate what I wanted. The producers got involved in the editing room. I mean, the you know, the money people, were not thrilled with the editing. And we brought on another supervising editor. And it got a little more complicated. And I was doing a play at the time. And the editor was the supervising editor was doing some editing out in California while I was in New York. And there were some ideas that were had, that I did not agree with. And there are some things in the film... Boy, I'm just opening a can of worms. JOHN GASPARD 25:12 There's open it as far as willing to open it. LEE WILKOF 25:18 There are some things in the film that it was it was suggested that we edit it a different way. And I was adamant not to. And, and those things are in the film. And there's a few things that were not my idea. And that I learned to live with. Ultimately, we ended up with I think, a pretty damn well edited film. It was a somewhat of a difficult journey, the post production, I think, where we got in, I think, I probably got us into a little bit of a little bit of jams, because I didn't do the sometimes the coverage I should have done. Yeah, if I had the opportunity, if I get the opportunity to do it again, I will. I've learned I learned a ton from that. That's where I learned the most, what I needed for the editing room. JOHN GASPARD 26:22 So, there's two questions I always ask at the end, do with these what you will. The first question is two part: what's the smartest thing you did during production? And what was the dumbest thing you think you did? LEE WILKOF 26:36 The smartest thing I did was getting Nathan and Gabriel on board, deciding when Maury wasn't available to get Nathan, and not saying, I don't think Gabriel Byrne. And the stupidest thing I'm not going to say. I won't. JOHN GASPARD 27:00 But you learned from it. LEE WILKOF 27:01 I learned from it. I learned from it. And that's all I can say. JOHN GASPARD 27:07 So, are you going to do this again? LEE WILKOF 27:10 I'm really getting itchy to do it. There's another script that I wrote with the same young man, it's called Teenage Waistband. And it's about growing up in Canton, Ohio my junior, sophomore year high school. Was at a junior? In late 60s in Canton, Ohio, it's period and it would cost a fair amount of money. I'd love to do it. But I wouldn't want to do it under the certain same circumstances. I don't want to do it. I don't want to put my hat in my hand and have to go ask a zillion people for, you know, $1,000 here and there. So, I don't know. But I hope to do it again. I'm trying to figure out what to do next. JOHN GASPARD 27:59 Before I could let him go. Lee was kind enough to spend a few minutes talking about two early-stage successes, Sondheim's Assassins, and the original off-Broadway production of Little Shop of Horrors. So, I had a couple questions for you about just that whole experience, because having talked to Roger Corman about the movie, the original movie. LEE WILKOF 28:18 Yeah, I did it in Los Angeles and met him That was thrilling. Actually, opening night in Los Angeles, Roger came, Jackie Joseph came who played Audrey, and I forget the guy's name. Yes. I forget his name. Anyhow, anyhow, what do you want to know? JOHN GASPARD 28:38 Well, Corman was so, I tell the story all the time to filmmakers, because he was he's a great interview. He's an engineer, and he speaks like an engineer and perfect sentences. And I had 20 minutes and I had to talk about five movies with him, because I was doing five different. And I asked him, I said, So you shot a little shop in three days? And he said, Well, technically, yes. But there was some pickups. I had the actors for five days, and we rehearsed for three and shot for two. And that's what I tell people all the time is you think you think rehearsal is not important? The cheapest man in the world, spent three days rehearsing. And then he said, I shot it with two cameras. He said it really was more of a stunt. I've never do that sort of thing again. But how did you get involved in that project? LEE WILKOF 29:25 I could go on for hours. Anyway, I grew up in Cleveland. I grew up in Canton, Ohio. This is a little background because you just talked about the film, grew up in Canton, Ohio, on Friday nights. In the late 50s. Early 60s There was a guy that did the horror movies. His name was Ghoulardi his name, Ernie Anderson. His son is Paul Thomas Anderson. If you see Paul Thomas Anderson's films called Ghoulardi films. And he showed horror movies. One of our favourites, we would have like sleepovers with you know, 12 year old boys and we'd stay up late and watch. And one of our favourites was always Little Shop of Horrors, the original Little Shop of Horrors. So, I grew up knowing it, loving it, being, just thinking it was amazing. Didn't know when I was a kid that it was shot in three days, but it was primitive. You know, it was great. It's crazy. It's one of those movies. It's so bad that it's great. It's brilliant. It's not bad movie. It's just production values when you look at it now, of course, two days, you know, the scene with Jack Nicholson, this that fell over and they stopped shooting this. So anyway, okay, I was familiar with it. I did a play in New York. The play with Maury Chaykin and I met our stage manager, who had a girlfriend who was a casting director. And I knew them personally. I moved to California a few years after doing that first play in New York, and I was pursuing my Hollywood, that pursuit, working sporadically and playing nerds on TV. And I got a call from this woman. The woman who was the girlfriend of my stage manager. We're doing a musical written by Alan Menken and Howard Ashman, and I knew Alan Menken from a revue I did in in New York before I moved to California. And it's called Little Shop of Horrors. I said, I know this, I know Little Shop of Horrors. I grew up watching it, somebody's turned it in to a musical. That's amazing. So, I was very excited. I flew myself into New York. And I was auditioning for the role of the dentist for some reason or another and I , in those days, when I was in California, I was I was I was wearing I was trying to get jobs with wearing a toupee. I was bald when I was 17. And I walked into the audition. And Alan Menken knew me from this revue that I did as bald and he started laughing, and I got so embarrassed, I tore off my toupee. And Howard Ashman said, You are not a dentist, you're Seymour, you're you know, you're a potential Seymour. So, I auditioned for the role. And it, I got a call back the next day. And it was between me—this is a story I've heard years later—but the story was it came down to me and another actor. Nathan Lane, between me and Nathan and Howard Ashman had an assistant, a young woman who suggested to him that I was probably a better fit, for one reason or another. And she is my wife. I married her, I met her on the show, and married her. Her name Connie Grappo. She subsequently directed it all over the world. And so, I played Seymour. We opened it in New York, it was this tiny little show, I would take the flyers for it to people. And they would like, you know, look at me, like what the hell was this. And then, a month later, they were begging me for tickets, because it was such a huge hit. It was the hottest ticket in New York. And it was in a little 99 seat theatre, and then it moved off Broadway ran for five years, but I didn't do it for five years. I did it for like six months, and then six months in Los Angeles, where it didn't do so well. And then I fille in over the years for different Seymour's that would go on vacations. So that was that. My wife directed it all over the world. And then there was a production in Florida that was Broadway bound about 12 or 15 years ago, and I played Mr. Mushnik in that. So I have played Mr. Mushnik. But I did not come. It came to Broadway but I did not come in with it for all sorts of different reasons. But I would like to play this. I'm certainly old enough. JOHN GASPARD 34:38 Yes. It's finally time. LEE WILKOF 34:44 It was 35 years ago, it was just about now. We were in rehearsal. 35 years ago, we opened the end of April or the beginning of May in 1982. And it was you know very, it was very profound for my career. Because it was a huge hit. And it got me. You know, people came to see it. And I met my wife on it. So it was it was very significant. You know, people say to me, what's your favourite thing you've ever done? And they all think I'm going to say Little Shop of Horrors. And it's Assassins. Assassins is, is the greatest experience I ever had. It was not a huge smash hit. But I was, you know, I was in A Sondheim musical, which is a gift that I got. And the cast. I loved the cast. And for me a lot of doing it any show is who I'm doing it with. Of course, you know, the material is really important, but I, it was just a great cast. And the part was really challenging. I think that was a show like the director didn't know what the hell to help me do and I was kind of on my own and I kind of, thank God, found my way.I don't have a lot of stories except we did the album. Nowadays you do a cast album, you do it in like, you get one take. On Assassins, we had three days. And the first number up was the number that I had the most singing. My character really did monologues and didn't sing. I played this guy Sam Bick, who tried to kill Richard Nixon by crashing an airplane into the White House. He was shot in the cockpit. But anyhow, he did these like rants. He did these taped rants. But I had the song that I had to sing and it was the first number up and I was nervous and I was tight. And Steve Sondheim had a broken ankle so he couldn't come in like to the studio. He was in the in the control room. And I was I was just struggling with it. I came in during a break to hear it and Steve Sondheim said to me, yeah, it's tough for you guys that can't sing. And, you know, I wanted to disappear. But we finally got it. They told me to try to sound like Jack Nicholson. And I think it's who I tried to sound like.And then years later I did another thing with Steve Sondheim, this workshop of thing called The Frogs. And I did have a number and I sang. And he forgot that he told me I couldn't sing and he was very complimentary. So, in the presence of him was just like, the most intimidating, the most. It was, it was thrilling, but he's very intense. It was just a great experience. My greatest joy and the thing that I cherish the most. [SOUND CLIP FROM LITTLE SHOP] JOHN GASPARD 38:20 Thanks to Lee Wilkof—heard here performing my favourite song from Little Shop of Horrors, Mushnik and Son—for taking the time to talk to me about his movie, “No Pay Nudity,” which is available now for home viewing. I recommend that you track it down. If you liked this interview, you can find lots more just like it on the Fast Cheap Movie Thoughts blog. Plus more interviews can be found in my books, Fast, Cheap And Under Control:Lessons Learned From The Greatest Low Budget Movies Of All Time, and its companion book of interviews with screenwriters, called Fast, Cheap And Written That Way. Both books can be found on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Google, and Apple books. And while you're there, check out my mystery series of novels about magician Eli Marks and the scrapes he gets into. The entire series starting with The Ambitious Card can be found in paperback hardcover eBook and audiobook formats. Well, that's it for episode 103 of the occasional film podcast. Produced at Grass Lake Studios. Original Music by Andy Morantz. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you occasionally.

Writer/Director Jonathan Lynn talks about his work on the classic films “Clue” and “My Cousin Vinny,” as well as his comically dark novel, “Samaritans.”LINKS A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast“Clue” Trailer: https://youtu.be/KEXdWfsKZ1k“My Cousin Vinny” Trailer: https://youtu.be/HrfXTjYyenE“Yes, Minister” Clip: https://youtu.be/KgUemV4brDUThe Occasional Film Podcast - Episode 102 Transcript[SOUNDBITE FROM “MY COUSIN VINNY”] John Gaspard 00:32That was Joe Pesci and Fred Gwynne in a much-quoted scene from the much-loved film, My Cousin Vinny. Hello, and welcome to episode 102 of The Occasional Film Podcast, the occasional companion podcast to the Fast Cheap Movie Thoughts Blog. I'm that blog's editor, John Gaspard. In this episode, we're talking to Jonathan Lynn, the director of My Cousin Vinny. But Jonathan Lynn is much more than that. He studied Law at Cambridge, appeared in the Cambridge follies, went with that show to Broadway and the Ed Sullivan Show, and played Motel the Tailor in the original West End production of Fiddler on the Roof. [SOUNDBITE FROM FIDDLER ON THE ROOF]He wrote for television and—with Anthony Jay—created Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister, two classic British situation comedies. [SOUNDBITE FROM YES, MINISTER]Lynn came to America and wrote and then ended up directing the classic movie comedy Clue. And he did all this by the age of 42. As the satirist Tom Lehrer said, Tom Lehrer 01:54It's people like that will make you realize how little you've accomplished. It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years. John Gaspard 02:39In my conversation with Mr. Lynn, we talked about what he learned from shooting Clue and went into detail about the making of My Cousin Vinny. But we started our conversation talking about his new novel Samaritans, a caustic look at the American Health System, viewed through the eyes of one hospital, and its staff in Washington DC. What was it about this story that made you think this should be expressed as a novel? Jonathan Lynn 03:05I played around with it as a in other forms, because mostly I haven't written—I mean, I've written four or five prose books. I wrote The Complete Yes, Minister and The Complete Yes, Prime Minister, which were enormous bestsellers. But mostly I've written, as you say, in script form, either plays, TV or film scripts. The more I played around with this, the bigger the subject seemed to get. There was no way I could explore the characters of all of these people in a two-hour script, which is actually not very long. A screenplay is 120 pages, that's a pretty well-spaced out. Stage plays, you know, are a similar length we're talking about, you know, usually no more than an hour and a half, especially for comedy. You can make dramas last longer, because you're not asking to be so on the ball and get every joke. But with a comedy you don't want it to go on too long. The famous comedian's rule, you know, leave them wanting more. And as I kept writing. I found more and more to write about, and it seemed to expand, and it seemed to me that expanding it was good. So, in the end, it seemed to me that its best form would be a novel. John Gaspard 04:27As I was reading it, I began to think at first, oh, this is going to be a farce. It's going to be absurd. It's going to be like, Catch 22. It's just going to take an idea and take it to its illogical endpoint. But then as I got into it, I realized, no, this is completely grounded in reality and every bizarre thing that happens seems to have an analogue in the real world and it isn't absurd. I mean, it is absurd. It's kind of like reality. Was that your intention? Jonathan Lynn 05:03Well, yes, you're right. It is absurd and it is reality. It's the absurd reality of the healthcare system in the United States, not just in the United States. I mean, I come from Britain where the National Health Service is in a state of collapse, for similar reasons. Because everything is viewed as a business model. And patients are viewed not as patients, but as consumers. And hospitals and healthcare is viewed as something that has to in some way make money. It's worse here, because healthcare in America costs approximately 1/3, more than in any other developed country in the world. In every other developed country, health care is regarded as a right, not a privilege. So, the absurdity here is greater than anywhere else. So, when you mentioned compared to Catch 22, which, by the way, is a very generous compliment that is such a wonderful book. But that's only a little exaggerated too. I mean, that really is what the military was like and World War Two. When you write comedy, you heightened things to exaggerate on the comic effect. But essentially, if they're not true, the reader, or the audience, recognizes that they're not true, and doesn't think it's funny anymore. And so, the balance is always to keep it truthfully observed so that people recognize it and slightly exaggerate it so that people laugh at it. John Gaspard 06:36And it is a very funny book. I don't want to talk about it and make it sound like it's dour or serious. I mean, the subject matter is serious, and it is, in many cases, literally life and death. I mean, I just jotted down a couple of quotes that I loved. Referring to healthcare as the ultimate lottery. A student loan, like a diamond, is forever and then I know you put this in for those of us who are fans of your other work to find when Blanche says, I feel you know what I feel flames on the side of my face. Jonathan Lynn 07:08Yes, that's a little indulgence for people who are fans of Clue. People really love Clue and that seems to be everybody's favorite moment in the movie.Madeline KahnI hated her soooo much, it, it, flame, flames on the side of my face, breath, breathing, heaving breaths. Jonathan Lynn 07:08Because I always saw Blanche. I mean, in God's production, you know, sadly, Madeline Kahn is no longer with us. But if she was, and if we did of production of Samaritans, you know, Madeline Kahn would be the perfect Blanche. John Gaspard 07:47She'd be ideal. Jonathan Lynn 07:49So, you know, it just sort of came to mind that maybe that's what Blanche say and why not have a little in joke for the benefit of fans of Clue. John Gaspard 08:02Absolutely. It's a weird thing to say about a novel, but it's really well researched. At least it appears to be really well researched, which isn't something you think about with a novel. I have written a couple of mystery novels that involve a magician, and it does for me—not being a magician—involve a lot of research to understand that process for me. What was the process for you? Was it research first and then writing or writing leading you down rabbit holes of research? Jonathan Lynn 08:29It goes hand in hand to me. The idea comes first. The idea, that the funny idea that hospital beset with raising costs and poor management should decide that they need the head of a Vegas casino as their new CEO, because he understands about check out and check in, beds occupied, and dinners, and has no interest in healthcare. That struck me as a really fun idea as that truthful about the way the health care system is operating here. Then, when I was writing it, I discovered, I read a story in a paper. That said I think it's Aetna, it was one with the big insurance companies, had hired a new CEO, the CEO of Caesars Palace. So, I discovered that life was imitating art in that case. But what happens is that as you can see, when if I got an idea, I started researching simultaneous. So, then I had to find out about hospitals. I knew a bit about hospitals because, well partly I've been a patient more than once, partly my wife taught in two major London teaching hospitals, partly because I have friends who are doctors, and they were very unhappy with the way the situation, the system works here. And you start researching and you start talking to friends and acquaintances or people that you get in touch with and gradually, you discover things that are actually both more appalling and funnier in real life than you would probably ever have thought of as you sat at home trying to make it all up. I've always found that research led me to greater comic possibilities than I ever thought were there, in anything I've ever written. I think humor is about dark subjects, because it's about serious subjects and I know we're also going to talk about My Cousin Vinny in a few minutes. But you know, that's a perfect example. I mean, that is funny, only because of its terrifying implications that those two kids would have been electrocuted, would have been killed by the state, if they hadn't had a peculiarly argumentative lawyer in Vinny. And you know, so what makes that film both funny and compulsive viewing for people is that it is about something terribly serious. It is finally about life and death. It's a film about capital punishment, although people never talk about it in those terms, but that's at the root of it. So, the answer to your question is yes, I think the more serious the subject, the better the comic possibilities. John Gaspard 11:16What special pleasure does novel writing give you that you're not getting as a playwright, or a screenwriter, or a director or an actor? Jonathan Lynn 11:25The pleasure is that I only have to please myself. I don't have to worry about, you know, is there some actors who would like this part, or will somebody demand that this character has made more likeable before they'll play it. How can we raise, you know, millions of millions of dollars, in order to get this out before the public. There are all kinds of ways of putting you in a straitjacket when you're creating a play or a film or TV series. That are all to do with the fact that they cost so much money and that, therefore, you need the approval of producers, directors, executives, star actors and everybody else about everything and if you're not very careful, they get compromised out of existence and that often happens. As you know. That doesn't happen if you're writing a book. All I have to do is please myself, and then hopefully find someone who will publish it. [SOUNDBITE FROM MY COUSIN VINNY TRAILER] John Gaspard 12:26The other reason for the call now was, this is the 25th anniversary this year of My Cousin Vinny and I'm sure you've been involved in other interviews and events about that, and those will continue. But I thought it'd be kind of fun to revisit this, you were kind enough to talk to me, I actually don't know how many years ago, but there were some of the questions wanted to ask you about it now that it's 25 years later. But to back up a little bit: So, your first movie, as a director was Clue, which you'd written.[SOUNDBITE FROM CLUE TRAILER]And I know you have had before that a lot of experience on stage, both as a director and an actor, but it's a really self-assured directing debut. It's a big movie, although it's in one house, but it's still a big movie with a big cast and a lot going on. What was the biggest lesson you took away from that directing experience? Jonathan Lynn 13:33The biggest lesson I took away, although I don't always manage to stick to it, it to trust my own judgments and don't, don't be overly impressed by what I'm told by studio executives. There are things in Clue that I regret, that I should have changed, and I didn't because I was persuaded by the studio that's what I should do, and as a first-time director, I assumed they knew what they were talking about. There are various examples of that. But perhaps the most obvious example is the multiple endings, which was a great mistake to release them in separate movie theaters. Because the whole point about the multiple endings is the ingenuity of the fact that the story could lead to three different outcomes, all of which made sense, and all of which were funny. The film wasn't a success until I put them all together for the video version and they started being seen on TV. I mean, I also learned all kinds of other things that I haven't found about how to use camera, because directing on stage is completely different, especially directing a farce, which Clue is, a broad comedy. Because on stage, you see all the characters and your eye takes in all different sorts of actions. The camera has to focus on little pieces of action one moment at a time. You can't have too many wide shots with eight or nine people in them because they all become too small. You can have some. So, for me it was a big lesson in learning how to photograph comedy as opposed to stage comedy. Staging it was not a problem for me, making sure that I had photographed it exactly right. So, and it was complicated because there were so many people in every scene, that the geography of the scene always had to be clear. You know, the audience needs to know where people are and in the case of Clue, they need to know where people are not, because that of course meant somebody was missing, they could be the murderer. And whenever I've been left alone by the studio, or by the producers to do my thing, my films have been better than when I've been subjected to too much pressure from the parent company. John Gaspard 13:41And then we get into My Cousin Vinny. Now, my, some of my questions are going to be based on having re-looked at your book, Comedy Rules. Because there's some stuff in Comedy Rules, although it doesn't refer specifically to Vinny, it feels like it sort of tendentially does. And one of the things you write about there a couple times, and this is I think, first in reference to Yes, Minister, is the idea of the hideous dilemma. Can you just define that for me? Jonathan Lynn 16:07Well, yes, I think there has to be. I think all comedy needs a hideous dilemma. And, you know, in, in my book, Comedy Rules, I talked about it in connection with, Yes, Minister, and Yes, Prime Minister, because the politician Jim Hacker, in those series and books, is like all politicians torn between doing the right thing and doing the thing that will either advance his career, or make him look better to the public, or go down better with the press. And these things are nearly always fighting each other. Doing the right thing is often not the safest thing and politicians are always scared of being exposed. Being in government or being in politics is essentially about having two faces, about hypocrisy, and you never want it to be revealed that you said one thing one day and then did something else another day. Now that rule has slightly changed since the advent of Donald Trump, who doesn't seem to care that he's caught out in the lie every day of his life or maybe 10 lies. But it matters to most politicians, and it kills their careers. Sir Humphrey, the senior civil servant, was also always caught in a dilemma. That was some of the nature. Now in My Cousin Vinny, the hideous dilemma is obvious. The two boys are charged with murder that we the audience know they didn't commit, and they have to make a choice. They have to hire Vinny, who has never had conducted a trial. He's only been qualified at the bar for six weeks and he's never done a murder case.[SOUNDBITE FROM MY COUSIN VINNY TRAILER]Jonathan Lynn 18:09They have to hire him. They have nobody else. This is a hideous dilemma for them. The hideous dilemma for Vinny is that he knows that if he fails, his cousin will be executed. I mean, what worse situation could he be in? The hideous dilemma Mona Lisa Vito, Marisa Tomei, is that she's living with this guy who means well, but just can't get it right. All of this is what makes it funny. John Gaspard 18:38You know, it could have been played as a completely straight drama right out of John Grisham, because all the elements would be the same. Jonathan Lynn 18:44It's a trial movie. It's just that comedic choices are made instead of dramatic choices. But you're right. That's why it works. Because most trial movies—I mean, I didn't know there was another trial movie that's a comedy from start to finish. There are comedies with trial scenes, but most of them are rather treated rather frivolously. In Vinny, I treated the situation with the utmost seriousness. And I think that's why it's funny, because it's so frightening. John Gaspard 19:16Exactly. Another thing you mentioned in the book Comedy Rules that I think applies really nicely here is the concept that it helps to be an outsider, which Vinny clearly is. And that gives you a great way into the story. Did your experience sort of as an outsider, a British director working in America, was that also helpful? Jonathan Lynn 19:39When I look at the history of Hollywood movies, one has to assume that that is helpful. If you look at the extraordinary number of really good directors who came from Europe mainly but also from other cultures to Hollywood and one of the best things about Hollywood that has to be said, that's good about Hollywood, that it is not at all xenophobia. It welcomes anyone from anywhere. But if you look, I mean, Billy Wilder is my favorite comedy director. He was Viennese, Fred Zimmerman was from Vienna, Milos Forman is from Czechoslovakia. Michael Curtiz is from Hungary, and you could go on all day. I mean, a colossal number of the greatest Hollywood directors of—Alfred Hitchcock from Britain—are from somewhere else. And I think it helps. I think as an outsider, you see it maybe more clearly. People always talk to me about the fact that the South is presented differently in My Cousin Vinny than in most American films. That's because I think most American films are directed by northerners and they see the South as some strange, foreign place. To me, the South and the North they're all just America. I mean, the differences, there are obvious differences, but they're still part of American culture, all of which is, or was that time, foreign to me. John Gaspard 21:01I don't know, I'm one of those people who I'm sure you're running this all the time, who say if you're flipping channels, and My Cousin Vinny is on, that's it. You're gonna watch the rest of the movie. Jonathan Lynn 21:10That's really nice. I feel like that about some movies. I feel like The Godfather Part One and Two and you know, some other movies. I mean, if I see the Godfather on TV, if I happen to stumble across it, I have to keep watching. And, you know, there are some other movies. It's very nice to that people feel like that about Vinny. John Gaspard 21:32Yeah, everything came together in that movie, the script is very strong the way you directed it. And I don't mean just where you put the camera, or how you cast it. All those are great and you have a really very clean, non-intrusive visual style, which allows comedy to play really, really well. But between the script and the directing, and the way it's edited, all the pieces are there as a mystery, which it is sort of. It is completely fair. All the clues are given, and they're given so subtly, the how long does it take to cook grits, which is an important thing, is almost a throwaway line. You don't even think about it, it's perfectly in character for that conversation to happen. Just even the shot of the boys pulling away from the store at the beginning, where the curb can be seen on the left side of the screen, and you don't make a point of the fact that they don't go over the curb, because we don't know that's a fact. But when we see the photos later, we—if we had any doubts at all—knowthat wasn't their car, because they didn't go over that curb. I mean, it's that sort of attention to detail, you wouldn't necessarily see in a quote unquote, light comedy. But I think it's what makes it a perennial favorite. Jonathan Lynn 22:44Perhaps it's because I have a degree in law and I wanted it to be legally good. And perhaps because I've seen a number of trial movies that I really, really liked, like The Verdict and Absence of Malice and of course, To Kill a Mockingbird, there's a lot of great, Anatomy of a Murder. One of those are films that I think are full of tension and suspense and hold the audience's attention and I think I felt that was important. You can't make the whole movie about a trial unless the trial is dramatically effective from start to finish. So, yes, I approached it as a drama, except that we made comedic choices all the way through. John Gaspard 23:24What was your rehearsal process like? Did you have time for rehearsal? Jonathan Lynn 23:27No, there was no rehearsal. I discussed it with Joe Pesci and Joe said he hated rehearsal. He felt it took away his spontaneity and of course, he liked to rehearse a scene on the morning that we were shooting it, but he didn't want any advance rehearsal. Now, one of the jobs of the director, maybe the main job of the director is just to get the best work out of all the people in the movie. If you're leading actor doesn't want to rehearse, there's no point in trying to make them rehearse. It won't improve the result. So, we didn't have any rehearsal and all the rehearsals were just on the day of each scene. John Gaspard 24:06Well, that sort of jumps us right to my next question, which is going back to Comedy Rules again. This is rule number 140, which was remember the old English proverb you don't buy a dog and bark yourself. Talk to me about how that applies to your work as a director, because you are also an actor, and you're also a writer. Jonathan Lynn 24:28I never demonstrate how everything should be done. I never say play it like this. I never say, say it this way. I assume that the actors that I've got are high level, skilled professionals. And what I want them to do is bring what they can bring to something that I already have in mind and that the writer—which may or may not have been me—has already written. You know, with really good actors, with leading actors you know, you don't tell the movie star, this is how you play the scene and then demonstrate, because they would, you know, rightly send for their limo and go home. That's not what they're there for. They're there to bring what they can bring to the proceedings. And what you have to do as a director is have what know what you have in mind and meld it with what your actors bring. And that's why casting is so absolutely critical, because if you miscast a part, you know, it will never work, or will certainly never work the way you intended it to. John Gaspard 25:37You mentioned Billy Wilder, and I'm going to mention another rule from Comedy Rules, because there's a lot of good ones in there. Rule 149 is the last part of every film and play is a race to the finish between the show and the audience. Which I think is something Wilder would have agreed with. And you went on to add, the show must get there first. One of the things that makes, I think, Vinny so successful is that when the end is there, it's there. We zip right to the end. You don't hang around, there's not a lot of extraneous stuff. It's like the movie is over and we're out. How hard was that to achieve? Jonathan Lynn 26:17Well, it was interesting, because of course, that was done in the production rewrite. Dale wrote a wonderful script, but there were things that still needed sorting out and Fox hired me to do the production rewrite. And in the original draft that I was given, we never knew who committed the murders. You never knew what the real story was. So, that was a problem. For me, that was a problem. You can't have a trial movie without knowing what actually happened. Now, obviously, we didn't want to see what actually happened, because that would have been time consuming and boring. That's the problem with a Who Done It. That's why Hitchcock never made a Who Done It, because in a Who Done It, there's always a scene at the end, when the detective explains what really happens and that's always really dull. I made fun of that in Clue, with the butler's ludicrous explanation of everything. But I made it into a joke, because that film was a parody of a murder mystery. But in this case, we didn't need to see it all on camera. But we did need to know that the real murderers had been found and had been caught and that it all made sense. The other thing is that we didn't want to have the jury. Once it was clear that the two boys have not committed the murder, we have to get out of that trial as fast as possible. So, that meant it didn't have to it couldn't go to the jury. We couldn't have a boring scene when they came back and the judge said, you know, have you reached a verdict? Yes, Your Honor and reading out the verdicts and all that stuff that you see on television every week. So, it meant that we had to have the prosecutor do the right thing, which was very good anyway, because for me, there's no bad guy. The one most interesting thing about film, I think, is there is no villain. The court system, the justice system is the antagonist. So, we have to get out of that fast. So, it meant that the prosecutor did the right thing and simply withdrew the case. He just said, you know, we're not proceeding with this. So, that was the end of the trial. And that meant we could get out of that trial, in terms of screen time, probably five minutes sooner then if we'd gone through the whole thing of it going to the jury. John Gaspard 28:27Now, is there anything looking back in the movie that you wish you would have done differently? Jonathan Lynn 28:30Well actually, no. When I see the movie now, which I don't very often, but I you know, I have seen it occasionally. I'm really pleased with it. I have to say, most of my films, I see plenty of things I would like to change and that one, I think, you know, was a lot of luck. We made all the right choices, I think. I don't see anything I would want to change. John Gaspard 28:53I would agree. Is there anything any consistent thing you hear from fans about that movie that if someone mentions it, you know, they're gonna say this or that? Jonathan Lynn 29:04No, I get a lot of terrific response from judges and attorneys, who will say that it's legally the most accurate film that's ever been produced by Hollywood. I've met a number of federal judges who use it in their teaching at law schools, especially in the teaching of evidence. That's very gratifying. I was asked to speak at a couple of legal conventions to federal judges and others, not about the law, of course, which they know more about than I do, about how Hollywood treats trials and legal firms. So, they're very gratifying group of people. And then of course, they're just favorite moments that people refer to, which always happens in films, just like we were talking about in Clue, like Mrs. White's lines about the flames on the side of my face. It seems that a large number of people quote Vinny's line ‘Two Youts,” and there are a number of other moments in the film which people refer to with the great affection. [SOUNDBITE: MORE FROM THE MY COUSIN VINNY TRAILER] John Gaspard 30:23Thanks to Jonathan Lynn for taking the time to talk to me about his new book Samaritans, as well as Clue and My Cousin Vinny. If you liked this interview, you can find lots more just like it, including the transcript of an earlier interview with Mr. Lynn, covering other facets of My Cousin Vinny on the Fast Cheap Movie Thoughts blog. Plus, more interviews can be found in my books: Fast, Cheap And Under Control: Lessons Learned From The Greatest Low Budget Movies Of All Time, and its companion book of interviews with screenwriters, called Fast, Cheap And Written That Way. Both books can be found on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Google Play and Apple books. And while you're there, check out my mystery series of novels about magician Eli Marks and the scrapes he gets into. The entire series, starting with The Ambitious Card, can be found on all those online retailers I just mentioned in paperback hardcover eBook and audiobook formats. You can find information on those books and all the other books at Albertsbridgebooks.com. That's Albertsbridgebooks.com. And that's it for episode 102 of The Occasional Film Podcast, produced at Grass Lake studios. Original Music by Andy Morantz. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time.

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, John Gaspard discusses LESSONS FROM FILMMAKING FOR THE INDY AUTHOR. He talks about Weighing the Financial Risk ... Taking Your Time and Getting Some Distance ... Assessing Your Audience's Reactions ... Assessing What You Really Need ... Fixing It Later ... and Building Out the Story. Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out my YouTube playlist, 2 Minutes of Indy (https://bit.ly/2MinutesOfIndy), where you can find a brief video clip from the interview on each of those topics! For a transcript of this interview and links to more information, go to https://www.theindyauthor.com/podcast.html. Did you find the information in this video useful? Please consider supporting my work at The Indy Author via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/theindyauthor) or Buy Me a Coffee (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattydalrymple). John Gaspard is author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as four other stand-alone novels, "The Greyhound of the Baskervilles,” “A Christmas Carl,” "The Sword & Mr. Stone," and "The Ripperologists." He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series, under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies.

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While at the 2022 Magifest in Columbus, Ohio, we sat down with one of the presenters, Jason England. Although he has sporadically been on this podcast in convention updates, this is the first time we had time to chat without interruption. Jason lives in Las Vegas and is renown for his collection of gambling materials, interest in cons, and his expertise on the author of “Expert at the Card Table”, S.W. Erdnase. View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize In this episode, Jason England tells a few stories about the legendary con-man, Titanic Thompson, plus some stories about consulting for casinos, how he thinks about possible scams and illegal gambling equipment, plus a discussion about printing “Expert at the Card Table” and who Erdnase may have been. Download this podcast in an MP3 file by Clicking Here and then right click to save the file. You can also subscribe to the RSS feed by Clicking Here. You can download or listen to the podcast through Stitcher by Clicking Here or through FeedPress by Clicking Here or through Tunein.com by Clicking Here or through iHeart Radio by Clicking Here..If you have a Spotify account, then you can also hear us through that app, too. You can also listen through your Amazon Alexa and Google Home devices. Remember, you can download it through the iTunes store, too. See the preview page by Clicking Here Enter for a Chance to Win one of THREE copies of the eBook, "The Self Working Trick" by John Gaspard The book is a collection of a dozen Eli Marks short stories, ten of which have never been published before. First Name Last Name Email Address Enter now This contest is open wherever permitted by law to anyone in the world. There will be three prize winners. One entry per person, please. Winners will select their preferred method of eBook format (Kindle, Nook, Kobo, Apple or GooglePlay).We respect your privacy. Your email address will not be sold nor shared and only used for this contest. Thank you for entering. If your name is selected, then you will be sent an email notification asking what format you would desire (Kindle, Nook, Kobo, Apple or GooglePlay) and the author, John Gaspard, will send you the link.

Rob Zabrecky is a quirky, offbeat performer and the medium for the seances at the Magic Castle which makes him the perfect guest for our rather devilish episode #666. In both 2008 and 2009, Rob was selected as one of five top performers in the Parlour of Prestidigitation in the Magic Castle. His background as a musician transitioned into his success as a magician. He is also the founder of the Brookledge Follies that is held regularly at the Larsen home in Beverly Hills.If you are more of a visual person, you can watch a YouTube video of our chat recorded over Zoom. View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize This week, Rob talks about his experience as the resident medium for the Magic Castle seances, his association with the Brookledge Follies, and a great story about performing at a birthday party for Michael Jackson's son, Blanket. Download this podcast in an MP3 file by Clicking Here and then right click to save the file. You can also subscribe to the RSS feed by Clicking Here. You can download or listen to the podcast through Stitcher by Clicking Here or through FeedPress by Clicking Here or through Tunein.com by Clicking Here or through iHeart Radio by Clicking Here..If you have a Spotify account, then you can also hear us through that app, too. You can also listen through your Amazon Alexa and Google Home devices. Remember, you can download it through the iTunes store, too. See the preview page by Clicking Here Enter for a Chance to Win one of THREE copies of the eBook, "The Self Working Trick" by John Gaspard The book is a collection of a dozen Eli Marks short stories, ten of which have never been published before. First Name Last Name Email Address Enter now This contest is open wherever permitted by law to anyone in the world. There will be three prize winners. One entry per person, please. Winners will select their preferred method of eBook format (Kindle, Nook, Kobo, Apple or GooglePlay).We respect your privacy. Your email address will not be sold nor shared and only used for this contest. Thank you for entering. If your name is selected, then you will be sent an email notification asking what format you would desire (Kindle, Nook, Kobo, Apple or GooglePlay) and the author, John Gaspard, will send you the link.

Today I'm talking to the best selling author of Fast, Cheap & Under Control: Lessons Learned from the Greatest Low-Budget Movies of All Time (Fast, Cheap Filmmaking Books) John GaspardSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/thejhorton)

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer John Gaspard. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I'm a Blubrry affiliate, but that's not the only reason I'm telling you this. I've been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you're in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it's a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn't require a long-term contract, and it's just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn't that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I've included an affiliate link on this blog. Here's a link to a PDF copy of the interview. Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series. He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. Bobbie Raymond. I believe I have that right. In addition to three standalone novels, he has written several books about low budget filmmaking. Now that's an interesting subject. Coming to us from Minnesota, my guest today is John Gaspard. Hi, John, did I pronounce that correctly? John: You did. You pronounced it one of the two ways that is acceptable. My wife is more persistent about Ronnie Gaspard, but I've always had Gaspard so I answer to either one. Debbi: Gaspard. Very French. John: Yes. Oh yes. It's like Smith in the phone book over there. Debbi: All right. Okay. By the way, I love the short story that you provided for your guest post. John: Great! Thank you. Debbi: I just want to say that if you out there have not read it, any listeners have not read it, I would highly recommend you go to my blog and take a look at it. It's fun and it even comes with an animated video, which I loved. it's on my blog on my website and it's a great way to sample John's writing and Eli Marks. What prompted you to write this particular series about this kind of protagonist? John: Well, boy, that's a really good question. I had written a standalone suspense novel called The Ripperologists about people who are experts on Jack the Ripper who have to solve a current day recreation of the crimes, and I liked the process, but that particular story didn't have what I thought were a lot of legs. I was a big fan of the writer Lawrence Block and the different series that he had. His Matthew Scudder series, which is pretty hardboiled, and then his Bernie Rhodenbarr burglar series which is more lighthearted and a little goofier, and I really liked that. I'd liked something in that mold and was looking for a hero. In The Ripperologists, there had been a dynamic of a crotchety old expert and a younger whippersnapper guy, and I liked that so I created Eli Marks, the magician who's in his thirties and his uncle Harry, who had essentially raised him who's in his eighties. Harry is a master magician. He has worked in all forms of professional stage magic, close up magic, kids' magic,

Mark shares three short audio excerpts from the November 2021 20BooksVegas conference. 20Books Vegas 2021 is by far the biggest and best of the 20Books shows (there have been ten so far). It is the biggest show in the world focused on self-publishing although there is something for every author, traditional or indie. The 20Books mentality is that everyone deserves a chance to succeed if they take the knowledge and experience and apply it to their author business. With up to 20 authors making seven figures a year and hundreds making a full-time living, there will be something for everyone. Be warned, no one is going to carry you and make you an overnight sensation. You have to do that for yourself by applying what over 100 guest speakers have to offer. Are you ready to excel, reap the rewards of your good work? Then take control of your author career.   Prior to the main content, Mark shares recent comments, a personal update, thanks new patron Michael Howell and shares a word about this episode's sponsor. You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway. The three clips (each approximately 10 minutes) are: Mal Cooper - Finding and Keeping Fans https://youtu.be/qlqdlrgGXCQ (Full video) Caroline Peckham - Starting and Growing Your TikTok Platform https://youtu.be/dBiIPaeYUmk (Full video) Kevin McLaughlin - The Five Pillars of Indie Publishing https://youtu.be/yFXZAoi02sk (Full video)     Links of Interest: 20BooksVegas Website 2021 Video Playlist of 144 Videos (YouTube) Findaway Voices Findaway Voices Blog - Spotify EP 218 - John Gaspard on Business, Magic, and Writing The 2021 NaNoWriMo Writing Tools Storybundle Patreon for Stark Reflections The Relaxed Author Buy eBook Direct Buy Audiobook Direct Publishing Pitfalls for Authors An Author's Guide to Working with Libraries & Bookstores Wide for the Win Mark's Canadian Werewolf Books This Time Around (Short Story) A Canadian Werewolf in New York Stowe Away (Novella) Fear and Longing in Los Angeles Fright Nights, Big City   The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0  

Mark interviews John Gaspard about his mystery novels, his decision to move from traditional publishing to indie publishing, and other behind the scenes business decisions about his life in writing. Prior to the interview, Mark shares comments from recent episodes, a brief personal update and a word about this episode's sponsor. You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway. In their conversation Mark and John talk about: John's journey to traditional publishing and the process of getting his rights back and checking out indie publishing Working with an agent Some of the research John has done to find a publisher What a "right of first refusal" clause in a contract is Offering his publisher money to get out of the contract he was in The writing John was doing as full time work that was NOT writing novels Writing a mystery in novel form compared to writing it for the screen John's early introduction to film making that led to film-making projects through high school The two $30K feature films John worked on in the late 80s The combo book/behind-the-curtains podcast John has created and the plan behind wanting to launch it And more... After the interview Mark reflects on the business decision and investment John made in himself.   Links of Interest: Eli Marks Website Eli Marks Podcast John's Books Film Books All of John's Books Findaway Voices Universal Book Links Now Include Print (Announcement) Haunted Hospitals The Relaxed Author SelfPubCon 2021: The Writing Craft Conference (ALLI) - The Craft of Writing Short Books The 2021 NaNoWriMo Writing Tools Storybundle Patreon for Stark Reflections The Relaxed Author Buy eBook Direct Buy Audiobook Direct Publishing Pitfalls for Authors An Author's Guide to Working with Libraries & Bookstores Wide for the Win Mark's Canadian Werewolf Books This Time Around (Short Story) A Canadian Werewolf in New York Stowe Away (Novella) Fear and Longing in Los Angeles Fright Nights, Big City   John Gaspard is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as four other stand-alone novels, "The Greyhound of the Baskervilles,” “A Christmas Carl,” "The Sword & Mr. Stone," and "The Ripperologists." He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series, under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

John Gaspard is an author, director and producer based in Minnesota. In this episode we talk about:Being a local and independent filmmaker rather than pursuing Hollywood.Harsh realities of Amazon Video algorithms.Taking economics out of filmmaking. The journey of an indie filmmaker; small steps to success.Advice on things to avoid during production.Using star power to market your film without deceiving your audience. The importance of rehearsal and picking up the pace when shooting scenes.Ensuring the right people are viewing your film for algorithm purposes.Important things to remember before you leave set.!!!Giveaway!!! Get a FREE copy of Fast, Cheap & Under Control: Lessons Learned From the Greatest Low-Budget Movies of All TimeIf you'd like to get a free copy, let us know your favourite low budget movie in the comments on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook of this episode's launch post. We will randomly pick the winners 10 days after the episode's came out.Follow and Subscribe to the Filmmaker's Stories:FacebookYoutube TikTokInstagram TwitterYou can find John Gaspard on -  Twitter: @johngaspardInstagram: @johngaspardFacebook: @JohnGaspardAuthorPageWeb: https://www.fastcheapfilm.comAbout Podcast Host:Podcast provided by: JB Audio Post ProductionInstagram: @filmmakersstories @jbaudioposptproduction, @mrsupersonicFacebook: @jbaudiopostproductionEmail: podcast@filmmakersstories.comMust watch films recommended by John - Harold and Maude (1971) - https://imdb.to/3BAaKf5 Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948) -https://imdb.to/3lsarNR    What's Up, Doc? (1972) - https://imdb.to/3BuYywg     The Conversation (1974) - https://imdb.to/3lwxaIK The Usual Suspects (1995) - https://imdb.to/3BvayO8     

This episode features the mystery short story The Last Customer written by John Gaspard. It is read by local actor Parker Forrest Lewis. The Last Customer was first published in 2018, in the Blood Work anthology published by Down & Out Books. A comic book version of the story will be released by Albert's Bridge Books later this year. Learn more about the author and his writing on his website. In each episode, we share with you mystery short stories and mystery novel first chapters read by actors from the San Joaquin Valley. Our theme song was written and performed by Kevin Memley. If you enjoyed this episode please review or rate it as that helps more people be able to find us! Also, consider subscribing so you never miss an episode-both to this podcast and to our podcast newsletter. If you would like to help support this podcast and Kings River Life financially, and get some fun rewards, check out our Patreon Page. You can also make a one time donation through Paypal and you can purchase some fun Mysteryrat's Maze merchandise on Redbubble. You can find more mystery fun on our websites Kings River Life Magazine and KRL News and Reviews.

Nothing up my sleeve except an exciting new interview with mystery author, John Gaspard! Listen in as we discuss his love of mysteries and stage magic, where the titles of his books come from, how he learns about the magic without being a magician himself and so much more! John Gaspard website John Gaspard Amazon page Behind the Page, The Eli Marks Podcast Scrivener (use coupon code CHAPTER at checkout for 20% off!) Writer's Block Coffee (use coupon code SampleChapter for 10% off your order!) Grab some show swag at our TeePublic store during a big sale this weekend  9/24-9/26! Pop Goes the Culture Network Monster Attack!!! Podcast Contact the show via email at samplechapterpodcast@gmail.com or leave me a voicemail by calling 1-660-851-1146.

Jake sits down with John Gaspard to discuss The Eli Marks Mysteries Series and what he has learned about magic from an “outsiders” perspective   If you have any further questions, suggestions, or want to make a donation to keep the podcast going please email jake@jakestrongmagic.com for more information! If you can, please leave a review on the podcast to let me know how you like it!

Image Credit: Luis Noble John Gaspard's Latest Book Other Books by John Gaspard Show Notes and Resources Other books and author mentions: Jeffrey Deaver. Nevada Barr. Lawrence Block. Louise Penny. John's podcast: The Eli Marks Podcast. Wriiting tools: John writes on Word. Vellum to format books for publishing. The post MTTA 164: John Gaspard appeared first on Meet the Thriller Author.

Image Credit: Luis Noble John Gaspard's Latest Book Other Books by John Gaspard Show Notes and Resources Other books and author mentions: Jeffrey Deaver. Nevada Barr. Lawrence Block. Louise Penny. John's podcast: The Eli Marks Podcast. Wriiting tools: John writes on Word. Vellum to format books for publishing. The post MTTA 164: John Gaspard appeared first on Meet the Thriller Author.

John Gaspard is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series which features a magician as the protagonist.  While John is by no means a professional magician, I think it's safe to safe he's OBSESSED with magic by way of an occupational hazard.  This was an amazing podcast, as we love both magic and literature--and John combines the two perfectly. Check out his books and podcast here: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/  

This week Jonah connects with John Gaspard and Jim Cunningham, the minds behind Sunday Night Magic and the Eli Marks series of mystery novels The post Creating Magic Adjacent Content with John Gaspard and Jim Cunningham appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

This episode of Cozy Ink Podcast will feature an interview with cozy mystery author John Gaspard. We will discuss his Eli Marks Cozy Mystery series.For more information and links to John's books, click here.Support the show (https://paypal.me/cozyinkpodcast?locale.x=en_US)

The stage is set...for murder. Today's guest has been on the show before, way back in 2017. John Gaspard writes the Eli Marks mysteries, but today he's here to talk about his new series the Como Lake Players mysteries. In the interview, John explains why he's writing under the pseudonym Bobbie Raymond, what called him to write these books, and why he chose community theatre for his setting. (Hint: he's got experience with theatre and film.) John himself has a podcast where he talks to magicians about their work and also reads a chapter from an Eli Marks book. You can find that here. Today's show is supported by my patrons at Patreon. Thank you! When you become a patron for as little as $1 a month you receive a short mystery story each and every month. And the rewards for those who love mystery stories go up from there! Learn more and become a part of my community of readers at www.Patreon.com/alexandraamor This week's mystery author John is author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as four other stand-alone novels, The Greyhound of the Baskervilles, The Sword & Mr. Stone, A Christmas Carl, and The Ripperologists. He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series, under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less - that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films.  John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. To learn more about Bobbie Raymond / John Gaspard and all his books visit AlbertsBridgeBooks.com Press play (above) to listen to the show, or read the transcript below. Remember you can also subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. And listen on Stitcher, Android, Google Podcasts, TuneIn, and Spotify. Excerpt from Acting Can Be Murder Chapter One “How embarrassing would it be if we got lost down here? I mean, here I am in charge of the theater and then I go and get us lost while giving a tour. Nutty, right?”  Leah turned to see how her witticism had landed, recognizing immediately that the wisecrack had fallen on the far side of flat. The young man stared back at her blankly, and on that unlined, expressionless face she read nothing but judgment. And not positive judgment. This was a decidedly negative   assessment concerning her, her abilities as a tour guide and was probably inspiring a rising conviction that she was unqualified on all levels. In short, the tour was not going well. And they were only five minutes into it. Leah wished, not for the first time, that she had dragged Betsy along. The long-time administrative assistant had been a godsend on the last two theater tours Leah had spearheaded. And now she was questioning her decision to handle this one on her own. However, as the recently-hired Executive Director of the Como Lake Players, Leah felt the time had come to dispense with the handholding and conduct an actual tour on her own. The interview portion with this candidate had gone fine, although she sensed that he was underwhelmed with the prospect of directing at the theater and was just going through the motions. To be fair, she was a little underwhelmed with him as well. The appointment of a director for the last show of the season—a production of The Importance of Being Earnest—wasn’t exactly near the top of her ever-expanding To-Do list, but it had felt like something she could knock off quickly to give herself an easy—and early–win. This was the third interview she had conducted to fill the position. The first one had been with a cheerful, middle-aged woman named Nancy, who had a long list of children’s theater credits on her resume. Leah had barely needed to ask even one question, as the woman had started talking as soon as she walked in the do...

Today I'm chatting with John Gaspard about his Magic themes cozy mystery books, writing, and all things cozy. To follow John and his writing gow to www.Elimarksmysteries.com and follow his podcast Behind The Page. To help keep The Cozy Sleuth commercial free join us on Patreon.com/TheCozySleuth and on Ko-fi.com/thecozysleuth

Author John Gaspard on the trick to successfully switching from trad to indie  with his magic-themed thrillers.

John Gaspard is not a magician. He is a magic groupie who writes The Eli Marks Mysteries. What is amazing is that he gets all the magic correct. He discusses how he wrote these stories and his take on the art of magic. Is it is worth learning all the secrets? Is it hard to write a mystery? Eli Marks Mysteries are available as a softcover book, an e-book, and an audiobook on Amazon. Support the podcast by joining the Society of American Magicians at www.magicsam.com Have an idea for an episode? Let us know at podcast@magicsam.com Order your S.A.M. merchandise at www.magicsam.com/store 

John Gaspard is author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as two other stand-alone novels, "The Greyhound of the Baskervilles" and "The Ripperologists." He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series, under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less - that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films. Those books ("Fast, Cheap and Under Control" and "Fast, Cheap and Written That Way") are available in eBook, Paperback and audiobook formats. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. elimarksmysteries.com Free Eli Marks Short Story - The Invisible Assistant Ebook version:  https://BookHip.com/RLJQGX Audiobook version:  https://BookHip.com/GGHJVS Free Eli Marks Short Story - The Last Customer Ebook version:  https://BookHip.com/TXSQS Audiobook version:  https://BookHip.com/NCPKGD Jim Cunningham is an actor, writer, producer, and director. He spent three years in Dudley Riggs Brave New Workshop’s Resident Improv Company and has done numerous television commercials—including the Carsoup Guy—and voiceovers for TV and animated series.​ He hosted Mall of America, the Show, Explore Minnesota, Golf Nut for WCCO TV, “Minnesota Fun” for the Twins and Minnesota Wild, and has been the host of the Renaissance Festival’s Feast of Fantasy for almost 30 years.​ Last but not least, Jim spent three years hosting his own radio show on sports and entertainment. John's Readings: The Ambitious Card (Eli Marks Mysteries) – 10:11 Acting Can Be Murder (Como Lake Players) – 21:57 Greyhound of the Baskervilles – 38:10 Michael’s Beer Pairings: Schell's Hefeweizen, August Schell Brewing Company (paired to The Ambitious Card) – 7:15 Triumphant Session IPA, Summit Brewing Company (paired to Acting Can Be Murder) – 19:51 Ellie's Brown Ale, Avery Brewing Company, Boulder Colorado (paired to Greyhound of the Baskervilles) – 7:04 Interview Highlights: Writing novels vs. writing screenplays – 15:38 Writing novels inspired by magic tricks – 18:08 On planting clues and red herrings – 26:06 Murder mystery theater – 28:54 Making audio books – 29:56 Sunday Night Magic! – 32:10 Jim's years doing voice-overs and narration – 47:39 COMING NEXT MONTH: Poet and boxer Mark Connor. Our theme music is from www.bensound.com. UPCOMING EVENTS: Gabriel's Horn is accepting submissions for its anthology

Fiction Author, Judith Granahan of Minnesota writes books about strong, intelligent, inventive women who get in trouble. The question is who will survive, who won't? Women have always been described as super human to sniveling child, intelligent to incompetent, collaborator to cut throat; it goes on and on. With such varied attributes in mind, Granahan creates novels full of compelling characters dealing with mystery, danger, thrills, romance, horror, and difficult choices. Someday she may even write science fiction, fantasy or historical novels. www.judithgranahanbooks.com Judy's Readings: Rose Teaches her Sons to Hate (See That House) – 10:48 Hailey Goes Off the Mountain (See That House) – 23:47 Anna Mae Shoots Her Husband's Grave (Dancers of the Third Age) – 41:25 Michael’s Beer Pairings: Obsidian Stout, Deschutes Brewery (paired to Rose Teaches her Sons to Hate) – 6:54 Zombie Dust, 3 Floyd's Brewing Company (paired to Hailey Goes Off the Mountain) – 21:10 BOMB!, Prairie Artisan Ales (paired to Anna Mae Shoots Her Husband’s Grave) – 36:58 Interview Highlights: Starting the Night Writers group – 12:23 What kind of research goes into writing about corporate financial shenanigans? – 19:16 How do you get inside the head of characters completely unlike yourself? – 25:26 Writing people who are despicable in many ways--but not two dimensional bad guys. – 31:37 Revenge is not the answer to evil--what is? – 34:02 Your characters do a lot of shooting! What's your background with guns? – 45:46 What drew you to writing about an abused woman? – 47:40 Why do some people get the strength to leave abusive situations? – 50:54 COMING NEXT MONTH: Film maker and novelist John Gaspard. Our theme music is from www.bensound.com.  

Sleight of hand, illusion, and murder. John Gaspard, author of the Eli Marks Mysteries, joins me to chat about card tricks, the world of the working magician, and the newest book in the Eli Marks series, The Zombie Ball. As a special treat for podcast listeners, John's giving away a copy of an Eli Marks short story, "The Invisible Assistant." Here’s the link to the eBook version: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/jj1r1yaavj If you prefer an audiobook version of the story, here’s the link: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/ddaauus80l Find out more about Eli and his creator at http://www.elimarksmysteries.com Read John's other series, The Como Lake Players Mysteries, written under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. The first book in the series is Acting Can Be Murder. You can find the book here: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com Like John on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/JohnGaspardAuthorPage/ If you're in the Minneapolis, MN area, go see a magic show https://www.facebook.com/sundaynightmagic/ Feel like you're inside an Eli Marks mystery. Minus the dead body. Probably. The podcast is on social media now. Follow @podcast_cozy on Instagram and Twitter. On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecozycornerpodcast/ And sign up for my author newsletter, POC to POV, for news about my books, the podcast, spotlight authors and organizations, and for chances to win stuff https://mailchi.mp/alexiagordon/poc2pov

Sleight of hand, illusion, and murder. John Gaspard, author of the Eli Marks Mysteries, joins me to chat about card tricks, the world of the working magician, and the newest book in the Eli Marks series, The Zombie Ball. As a special treat for podcast listeners, John's giving away a copy of an Eli Marks short story, "The Invisible Assistant." Here’s the link to the eBook version: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/jj1r1yaavj If you prefer an audiobook version of the story, here’s the link: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/ddaauus80l Find out more about Eli and his creator at http://www.elimarksmysteries.com Read John's other series, The Como Lake Players Mysteries, written under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. The first book in the series is Acting Can Be Murder. You can find the book here: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com Like John on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/JohnGaspardAuthorPage/ If you're in the Minneapolis, MN area, go see a magic show https://www.facebook.com/sundaynightmagic/ Feel like you're inside an Eli Marks mystery. Minus the dead body. Probably. The podcast is on social media now. Follow @podcast_cozy on Instagram and Twitter. On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecozycornerpodcast/ And sign up for my author newsletter, POC to POV, for news about my books, the podcast, spotlight authors and organizations, and for chances to win stuff https://mailchi.mp/alexiagordon/poc2pov

This week we chat with a couple fiction authors who have magicians as the central character in their stories. Greg Koren is up first who talks about his newest book, “The Memory Trap”. The book is directed towards young readers and also for parents to read to their children. The premise of the book is that the central character, Henry Dunne, is about to be suspended from his new middle school for something he didn't do, and the principal's old but beloved car is about to disappear for the last time. Henry and the principal agree to help each other, but these unlikely friends don't realize the deck has been stacked against them, and time is running out. Henry must confront his fears and figure out whom to trust before the sinister force making their lives miserable steps from the shadows to deal the final, crushing blow. In helping to solve this mystery, Henry uses his knowledge of Tamariz’s “Mnemonica” card stack for his “memory palace”.Greg is a recipient of the Maryland State Teachers Association’s School Bell Award for excellence in education writing, the Associated Press’s Mark Twain award for his feature writing, and six awards from the MDDC Press Association. He is the author of the critically acclaimed one-act play An Arrangement of Convenience, a winner of the Maryland Playwrights Festival, which was produced by the Vagabond Theater in Baltimore in 1989.Koren fell in love with the imaginative world of middle-grade fiction after becoming a homeschooler and stay-at-home dad for his two children. Currently, he lives with his wife in Baltimore and works as a professional magician and mentalist.John Gaspard is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series as well as two other stand-alone novels, "The Greyhound of the Baskervilles" and "The Ripperologists." He just completed “The Zombie Ball” as the sixth in the Eli Marks mystery series, which he discusses in this week’s podcast. “The Zombie Ball” opens with Eli being asked to perform his magic act at a swanky charity gala, The Zombie Ball– a former zombie pub crawl which has grown into an annual high-class social event. What begins as a typical stage show for Eli turns deadly when two of the evening’s sponsors are found murdered under truly unusual circumstances. Compounding this drama is the presence of Eli’s ex-wife and her new husband, Homicide Detective Fred Hutton. Under pressure to solve the crime before the 800 guests depart, Eli and his detective nemesis go head-to-head to uncover the bizarre clues that will unravel this macabre mystery.In real life, John Gaspard is not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – that’s no small trick. He’s also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget film making. Ironically, they’ve made more than the films. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize View fullsize Time Stamps for this podcast:00:03:35 - Greg Koren talks about his newest book, “The Memory Trap” about a young man who solves a mystery in his school by using his knowledge of “Mnemonica”, a stacked deck.00:26:43 - John Gaspard tells us about “Sunday Night Magic”, a live, monthly magic show in Minneapolis. He also talks about his newest, sixth book in the Eli Marks magic detective novel series, “The Zombie Ball”.00:49:05 - an audio book that is an exclusive available here only for listeners of The Magic Word Podcast. You will only hear it here and it’s absolutely free! Enjoy “The Last Customer” in this 20 minute audio book you will not get anywhere else. Download this podcast in an MP3 file by Clicking Here and then right click to save the file. You can also subscribe to the RSS feed by Clicking Here. You can download or listen to the podcast through Stitcher by Clicking Here or through FeedPress by Clicking Here or through Tunein.com by Clicking Here or through iHeart Radio by Clicking Here..If you have a Spotify account, then you can also hear us through that app, too. You can also listen through your Amazon Alexa and Google Home devices. Remember, you can download it through the iTunes store, too. See the preview page by Clicking Here Congratulations to the winners of this week’s contest. Don’t miss out on the opportunity to enter our next contest. Watch for it in the pod-letter. Subscribe today! Order your copy through this link to help both the author and The Magic Word Podcast. Order your Kindle copy by using this link and help the author anThe Magic Word Podcast at the same time!

John Gaspard is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series The Ambitious Card, The Bullet Catch, The Miser’s Dream and The Linking Rings), from Henery Press. He has also written two popular books on low-budget filmmaking: Fast Cheap and Under Control and Fast, Cheap and Written That Way. In real life, John is not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – no small trick. His blog, “Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts” has been named “One of the 50 Best Blogs for Moviemakers” and “One of The 100 Best Blogs For Film and Theater Students.” He’s also written for TV and the stage. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies. How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you'll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

"I find it puzzling, don't you? The rabbit, I mean. Very puzzling." As a magician, I am accustomed to people asking me about rabbits... As a writer, John Gaspard is accustomed to people asking him about magic. His wonderful Eli Marks Mystery Series features magician and reluctant amateur sleuth, Eli Marks, and his cranky Uncle Harry, also a magician and a debunker of magic scams.  Soft-boiled, humorous, and taking place in the -- dare I say? -- enchanting world of professional magicians, this series is a treat.  Let's do the important stuff first. Poof! -- John has pulled a free short story for you out of his hat! You can download it here, or listen to the incomparable Jim Cunningham read it here. John also makes movies! Check out his film blog, Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts, which riffs off the name of one of his own books on movie making, Fast, Cheap and Under Control. In the interview, he recommends a book by William Bayer, Breaking Through, Selling Out, Dropping Dead and other notes on Film Making. You can keep abreast of Johns' many activities on Facebook. John gives a shout-out to fellow Minnesota writer Judith Guest (of Ordinary People fame, but also the writer of suspense novel, The Tarnished Eye) as well as mystery writer Lawrence Block, a long-time favorite of mine as well. He also talks about the great work The Amazing Randi has done in debunking frauds. Other magicians mentioned in this conversation: Dai Vernon, Lance Burton and Eugene Burger, and of course Harry Houdini. And I want to give a shout-out myself to Henery Press, which is doing a great job of publishing soft-boiled and cozy series, especially ones that are a little outside the lines, at a time when other publishers are ending many long-time series. They also publish Gigi Pandian's Jaya Jones series, another favorite of mine. If you missed my conversation with her, you can check it out here. This was such a fun conversation. Enjoy! -- Laura Transcript of Interview with John Gaspard Laura Brennan: My guest today may not be a professional magician, but he certainly creates magic on the page. John Gaspard’s novels are clever, funny and satisfying mysteries, with a flourish of stage magic. John, thank you for joining me. John Gaspard: Happy to be here. LB: Before we start talking about your novels, I'd like to talk a little bit about you. You also have a career in film and television, is that right? JG: Well, career might be a strong word. I have sold things to television and I have produced a number of low-budget feature films on my own. I started out as a teenager making films and I was directing them, so I was just always the director. LB: Well, I love that. I love that you take what you have and instead of letting it languish in a drawer somewhere, you actually went out and made it. And you started doing this when you were a teenager? JG: I did! I am one of the first people in the country or maybe even the world to make a feature-length Super 8 single sound system film. Which meant that the sound was right there on the film when you recorded it, as opposed to double system, where it is recorded separately. I did a couple of 16mm films in the '90s, they were all features, and then three digital features since around 2001. LB: So you have always wanted to write? JG: I always wanted to make movies, and since no one was handing me scripts I sort of fell into the writing part. LB: I like that because when you're writing a novel, you are both a writer and the director. JG: Yes. Yes, there's a lot more control going on in writing a novel. LB: So let's move into novels. How did you get started then, moving away from writing and directing features and into novels? JG: Well, I'd always figured that as I got a little bit older, I'd be doing less schlepping of film equipment and low-budget filmmaking. And I had read a book in my teens by William Bayer called, Breaking Through, Selling Out,

John Gaspard is the Author of the Eli Mark's Mysteries and he joins It's A Mystery to Me with Stacy Verdick Case to discuss the audio book release of Book 1 in the series The Ambitious Card. In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less – that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, they've made more than the films. His blog, "Fast, Cheap Movie Thoughts,” (http://fastcheapmoviethoughts.blogspo...) has been named "One of the 50 Best Blogs for Moviemakers" and "One of The 100 Best Blogs For Film and Theater Students.” He's also written for TV and the stage. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several dogs, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies.