Podcast appearances and mentions of john yes

Ever wonder what other people talk about with their financial advisors? A new survey of nearly 400 experienced advisors reveals the biggest concerns, challenges, and financial goals their clients are facing today. From retirement planning to healthcare costs to working longer than expected, we're breaking down the key takeaways and how they compare to what we see in our own client conversations.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Marc: Ever wonder what people are talking about with their financial advisors? Well this week on the show we're going to discuss a new survey of nearly 400 experienced advisors revealing the biggest concerns, challenges, and financial goals that their clients are facing. We'll see how that compares with what the guys see here on the show. Let's get into it this week on Retirement Planning - Redefined.   Welcome to the podcast, everybody. Thanks for hanging out with John and Nick and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And guys, we're going to share this survey. We'll put a link into the show descriptions as well for folks that want to check it out, but want to run some of this information past you guys and see does that correlate with what you're seeing, do you think it's accurate, not accurate, and just spitball and talk a little bit about some of the stuff out here.   The survey was done of nearly 400 experienced advisors all with around 20 years or more of a business, practicing business, so interesting. They didn't really say exactly the age bracket of all the people they were talking to, so there could be some folks that are not necessarily retirement age. They could be younger as well as older, but I want to run down some of this stuff and just get your guys' take on it.   How you doing this week, John?   John: I'm doing well. Daylight savings is messing with me a little bit, but I'm adjusting pretty well. And one of my kids, actually both my kids, they're testing for an honor belt in karate.   Marc: Oh, nice.   John: So they're excited.   Marc: They're going to whoop on you. Be careful.   John: It's funny you say that. They're running around the house kicking me now. It's like I wanted to get them into some self-defense stuff, but now I'm getting kicked.   Marc: So now you got to walk around with some pads on.   John: Pretty much.   Marc: Make sure you're not getting beat up too much. Very cool. Well watch the shins, man. They'll get you in the shins.   Nick, how you doing, buddy?   Nick: Good. We're staying busy.   Marc: He's like, "Good." Well, let's break this down a little bit, guys.   John: That's the sound of a guy that's in the middle of planning a wedding.   Marc: Right? That's what I was just thinking. He's like, "I got to make another decision. I don't want to make a decision." Let's jump into this and we'll see if we can make this easy for you this week, Nick.   So seeking out a financial advisor, the first part of this survey, advisors in the survey said 52% of their clients have sought out financial advisors to help with the retirement planning. About 34% surveyed were just looking for somebody to build wealth with. And in an era where everybody can call themselves a financial advisor, does that strike you as interesting? What do you guys think about that, 52% looking for retirement planning versus 34 just looking for some sort of wealth building, whoever wants to start?   John: Yeah, those numbers seem accurate to me. Well, I guess I'm a little surprised it's not more looking for help with retirement planning.   Marc: Okay.   John: I'd say the majority of our clients are retirement planning based, "Hey, I want to make sure my plan's good. I want to make sure I don't outlive my money." As far as building wealth, that does come up quite a bit, and Nick will jump in as well, but I'd say most of our clients are looking for retirement planning and just making sure they're on track and making sure that they're making the right decisions.   Marc: And it's two different mindsets too, right, Nick? I mean, so you need to decide what it is that you're looking for. I mean, not to say that you couldn't work with a retirement planner who also can help you with some of the wealth building, but it is a different skillset as well. If you're just looking for someone only to help you build the wealth, that's a little bit easier, I would think.   Nick: Yeah, and I would almost, if I were to say maybe put that in other words, we talk with people at the three phases of money as far as their life goes are accumulation or growth, distribution, taking their money in retirement and then transfer when they leave money. And so I would say from that initial, that wealth building, that's most likely accumulation focused. And because so many people accumulate their money while working in their 401(k)s and that kind of thing, I think it tends to be a little bit of a different conversation and it's those people that as you get closer to retirement. So without having ages, it does make it, the numbers are interesting, and I agree with John, I would've thought maybe it'd be a little bit higher from the standpoint of the retirement planning side, but-   Marc: Well, I mean, if you're just trying to grow the money, again the market's been, obviously we haven't had a prolonged downturn, and it's been choppy here lately, but we haven't had a prolonged downturn since '08, '09, so there's a lot of information out there about saying it's a little bit easier to build the wealth. But the preservation stage, which retirement is a little bit more complicated. There's more things going on than just the portfolio.   But with that in mind, check this out. Over half of the survey of financial advisors said the average client asset minimum was 760,000. I found that to be good. I know different areas are going to be more or less depending on the economic state of the area, but when you often hear that people aren't doing a very good job saving for their retirement future, three quarters of a million dollars is not bad.   Nick: It's definitely interesting to see the numbers and how they've changed over the last five to seven years where, and you mentioned it earlier where we've had a long prolonged period of time with the market going up, and so there's quite a bit of people meeting with us or ending up with more money than they had thought that they would or that sort of thing. There's a little bit of concern with that that only lasts for so long and that there's some correction and all that kind of stuff to happen. But absolutely, definitely that puts most people in the wheelhouse of where they need to be to have a successful retirement.   Marc: I mean, it's not bad. John, do you guys have a minimum? I mean, I know different advisor firms do different things. You can't service everybody. There's only so many hours in a day. So you'll hear something where somebody says, "Well, we work with people with 250,000 who have saved or more in assets," or some or a million or whatever. Do you guys have a breakdown?   Nick: We don't have a set minimum that we advertise or market.   Marc: Okay.   Nick: I would say that the majority of the people that meet with us tend to have what many institutions have as their minimum. So in other words, a lot of places will tell people, like you referred to that, they're looking to work with clients that have 250,000 or more just from an efficiency standpoint of trying to make sure that they can service their clients and that sort of thing, and so we end up above that with most clients. But the reality is, is that the conversations that we have with clients are really we don't keep that rule set in stone because for us, it's more of a relationship-based.   Marc: Individually based kind of thing? Okay.   Nick: Yeah, and really it's something we're looking for people that are serious about planning. I would say if you were to draw a line between what we were talking about earlier where a growth or retirement planning in a more broadly focused strategy, so they're focused on that. They're serious about it. We reference like, "Hey, we don't want to convince you that you needed an advisor. We want you to know that you need one and we want to interview for the job," kind of concept.   Marc: No, that makes sense because I mean if you're giving suggestions and someone's not willing to take them, you're just wasting each other's time versus... Yeah.   Nick: Exactly, and we found that that'll waste more time than in theory working with somebody that maybe isn't where they're going to be yet. And also-   Marc: It needs to be a reciprocal relationship.   Nick: For sure. Communication's super important for us because we've also found that we've had people come in that maybe are under that 250, but their parents are wealthy and they ended up being a teacher or something that maybe didn't allow them to save as much money as some sorts of jobs, and they're going to inherit money and they need assistance that way. So I'd say we're pretty comfortable with our process and how we approach that sort of thing and really look for it on a relationship basis, communication basis, and how we all get along.   Marc: That makes sense. And it's got to be a two-way street. I mean, when we do the podcast, it's not designed to turn every listener into a client if they're not already a client, but it is designed to say, "Hey, if it's the right relationship field going both ways, then we're happy to help if we can." That's pretty cool. So that's a good way of looking at that.   John, check out some of these top concerns. Let me know what you think here. So no surprise, number one, outliving their assets, 38% of the people surveyed. That's pretty much always number one, right? Outliving your money.   John: Yeah.   Marc: 31%, generating reliable income streams, a pretty high number as well.   John: Yes.   Marc: Okay. Then it drops off to a pretty stark, down to 12% for a future stock market crash. Now with some context here, this survey was completed at the end of last year, so it was December of '24. Do you think that number's gone up recently?   John: I would willing to bet that number's gone up. I think we were talking about the market, the last real big downturn was '08, and I think in the last 10 years, we've only had two years of the market being down, the S&P 500. I think it was, what, '22 and 2014, I believe.   Nick: I'd almost say that's a leading indicator that there's going to be, it's one of those things. Once people get that comfortable, that's usually when it comes.   Marc: I mean, it's been a while, right? So because nobody's worried about it whenever it's riding high. We only seem to worry about it whenever we're in the middle of it falling a little bit. But the one that really surprises me is all the way down to 8% for healthcare costs. Now if you guys are focused more on helping people with retirement planning and strategies, that to me, again depending on the ages of the people that answered this survey, healthcare costs at 8% seems awfully low because it's pretty costly, and we need to be having those conversations when we're, especially as we're getting older.   John: Yeah, for sure. This one, it is very important, and I think it's same thing we're talking about the stock market where it's been doing well. And when you're healthy-   Marc: It's great.   John: ...you think you're going to be healthy for a long time.   Marc: You don't think about it. Right, exactly.   John: You don't think about it all. It's back of your mind. I'll tell you where we see a lot of people concerned about it is if they had to do some care for their parents. Then it becomes top of mind of like, "Hey, this was a lot that I just went through." And taking care of them or seeing, whatever, if they have to go into a facility, and then in turn that's where we see the most of our clients that are concerned about healthcare costs is if they had to take care of a loved one.   Marc: Nick, according to the survey on that topic, advisors that were surveyed in this, were saying that clients should be more concerned about healthcare costs at around 54% unanticipated healthcare cost. Will you agree with that as well? Because I mean, obviously it comes out of the blue, it can totally derail the whole strategy.   Nick: Yeah, I think part of that is, from an advisor perspective, the whole concept of long-term care, obviously I'd say many advisors have a good grasp on long-term care, but I think it's become increasingly difficult for advisors to help clients plan for that with insurance or certain products that are out there. If we went back 10 years and from, let's just call it 2015 back through maybe 2005, that was the golden era per se for clients to be able to secure a reasonably priced policy from a long-term care perspective. So I think maybe that ties into the concern that advisors have is that at the end of the day it's a really expensive problem that clients can have, but it's also an expensive solution that a lot of clients are reticent to spend on something that may not be an issue, especially in a state like Florida where all of the insurance, people have serious insurance fatigue here.   Marc: Oh, I'm sure.   Nick: So it's a funny thing. The one time I actually answered a soliciting call earlier this morning was from State Farm calling me to, and they asked me if they could shop my car insurance for me, and I said, "Sure, let's try it." And sure enough, it was going to be $1,400 a year more than what I'm currently paying.   Marc: Thanks for the help.   Nick: And she laughed too, and she's like, "Well, can I call you in six months?" I was like, "You can try."   Marc: You can try.   Nick: I don't think you guys are going to come down that much. And so it's just crazy with what people are paying here. And so I think, long story short, I think that really ties into it as well for advisors.   Marc: And I'll hit you with this last one, John. I'll let you start and then I'll let Nick jump in if he wants to. And again, this survey was completed at the end of last year, so you can't take the current market downturn into this conversation. But according to the survey, an average of 63% of clients age 55 or older intended to work to 65 and beyond. 63% of people wanted to continue working up to 65 or beyond, yet only 30% of those clients are actually still doing it. So I guess my question is, does this surprise you that people want to keep working longer? And if so, what are some of the main reasons why you guys are seeing people want to work into their older ages?   John: It doesn't surprise me. I think with the shift really since COVID of being able to work remote, I've seen a lot of people that sit there now thinking like, hey, I work from home. I can travel still and log in. And it's given them a comfort of just saying, yeah, I'm making good money. I can continue to do this.   Marc: Feather than nest some more, right?   John: Yeah, so it's just building up the nest egg and allows them maybe to feel comfortable doing some more travel that they otherwise maybe wouldn't have felt so comfortable doing. We talked about the fears of outliving your assets, so I've seen a lot of that. And then there's a lot of studies out there saying, just keeping sharp of mind. So I've seen that where people are like, "Hey, I don't want to retire because I want to stay active. I want to have a purpose and continue to do things." So I think I'm not surprised by that number.   Marc: Interesting.   John: Because we're having more conversations of people wanting to work longer because they enjoy what they're doing. And with Zoom, it's become very easy to continue to work longer.   Marc: Well Nick, I'll give you this last piece here. 48% of those people feel like they don't have enough saved to live on through retirement. I mean, you're talking about half. So half of the people surveyed don't think they have enough, so that sounds like it just comes back to just not truly having a plan or even really knowing what it is that you've got. They've probably never sat down and really pulled this stuff together so they don't feel confident.   Nick: Correct. I think you nailed it there. The uncertainty of not having a plan and not knowing and understanding what things look like really oftentimes causes procrastination, and then all of a sudden it's 5, 7, 10 years later and there could have been a couple of small tweaks or a couple of small adjustments. I mean, in reality, there's been so many times when within 30 minutes if John and I meeting with somebody the initial time, we can tell three to five things that they could do that wouldn't have a significant impact on their life, but would have a significant impact from a positive perspective on their overall planning. And so whether it's informing themselves and holding themselves accountable or working with an advisor, which we have found, and there's been a ton of studies that have found that having that partner to help guide them through the decision-making process, that there's significant value there and the average rates of return and all that kind of stuff show that because of the decision-making.   Marc: Well, think about what you're going through with the wedding planning stuff. So there was a thing a couple years ago we were talking about, some of the most stressful events we can do in life, one of them was planning for a wedding. One of them was planning for retirement, right?   Nick: Yeah.   Marc: There's a lot of decisions to be made. And so having somebody to lean on I think goes a long way into removing some of that stress because it does get overwhelming. And at some points you're just like, ah, screw it. I don't even know what to do anymore. So being able to talk with guys like yourselves and say, "Okay, look. Here's some thoughts we had," or, "Here's what we were afraid of," or whatever the case is, it gives you that sounding board to bounce some ideas off of and maybe get some reassurance.   Nick: Yep, fully agree.   Marc: Yeah, and so are you having that same problem from the wedding standpoint?   Nick: Right now we're interviewing planners-   Marc: There you go.   Nick: ...and the prices have gone up, so it's-   Marc: But you're looking for help, right, because it's a lot.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.   Marc: John, you don't want to be the wedding planner?   John: No, no. I did that 12 years ago-   Marc: I got you.   John: ...and I want no part of that.   Marc: I got you. Well, all right, guys, good conversation as always. Thanks so much for hanging out. So at the end of the day, I mean you find these surveys are pretty interesting. And I think a lot of this stuff comes back fairly similar each time, is that people are looking for some assurance. They're looking for some clarity in some of these situations, so that's the point of running through the planning process is finding out what do you got, where do you stand and how's it working for you, and do you need to make some changes?   Often people feel like we're going to have to do some major overhaul, and it scares them. But a lot of times when you run through the planning process, many people are in better shape than they realize. You just need some tweaks here and there. So if you want to have those conversations for yourself, reach out to John and Nick and get started today at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Get yourself onto the calendar for a consultation and a conversation.   And don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify, whatever podcasting app you like using. Retirement Planning - Redefined is the name of the show with John and Nick, and we'll see you next time here on the program. Thanks, guys. Take care of yourself.

In this explainer episode, we've asked John Pullinger, Senior Bio Sample Operations Manager at Genomics England, to explain what it means to go on a diagnostic odyssey. You can also find a series of short videos explaining some of the common terms you might encounter about genomics on our YouTube channel. If you've got any questions, or have any other topics you'd like us to explain, feel free to contact us on info@genomicsengland.co.uk. The episodes mentioned in the conversation are linked below. Hope for those with no primary findings The impact of a genetic diagnosis on mental health You can download the transcript or read it below. Florence: What does it mean to go on a diagnostic odyssey? I'm joined by John Pullinger, Senior Bio Sample Operations Manager for Genomics England to find out more. So, John, first of all, can you explain what we mean by diagnostic odyssey?   John: Yes, of course. The diagnostic odyssey is a term used to describe the journey that many people with rare conditions and their families undertake to receive an accurate diagnosis, a journey that takes on average over five and a half years.  The rarity of the condition means that there are few, if any, other people affected by it, for doctors to draw their experience from. Some individuals might never receive a diagnosis.  My job involves making sure that samples sent through the Genomics England processes can travel smoothly from the NHS hospitals to be sequenced and the results be reported back to the individual. We try and minimise the amount of time that samples and associated data is in our care.   Florence: And for people listening who might not know, could you explain why it sometimes takes a long time for people to receive a diagnosis?  John: There are estimated to be over 7,000 rare conditions.  This means that healthcare professionals may not be familiar with all of them and so may not recognise them or know how to test for them. In addition to this, some conditions affect multiple parts of the body. For example, skin, the heart, and the lungs. In these cases, there will be a need to visit specialists from multiple departments, and each will be looking specifically at their own area.  This could lead to referral loops where the patient needs to consult multiple healthcare professionals, all of which contributes to the time taken to receive a diagnosis. Since, for the majority of rare conditions, there is an underlying genetic cause. This means that most individuals who get a diagnosis will receive one through genomic testing, whether that be whole genome sequencing as offered here at Genomics England, or more targeted panel testing.  Typically testing will identify a particular gene, which is known to be linked to a specific condition. For certain conditions, it requires a real expert in the condition to even think about testing for it. Sometimes a condition will present in a way that is different to most other people who have it. So they may have symptoms that others don't. This also adds to the buildup of time taken to receive the diagnosis.  Florence: So, you mentioned earlier, John, that the diagnostic odyssey lasts an average of five and a half years. Can you explain what kind of effect this long waiting time has on individuals and their families?  John: Absolutely. One aspect of the diagnostic odyssey that is important to recognise is the physical effect of the as yet undiagnosed condition that's present and affecting the individual and their family on a daily basis. Those with rare conditions may be affected by a range of emotions connected to the ongoing journey that they're on, including feelings of isolation.  Also stress and anxiety. The fear of unknown can have a massive knock-on effect on the mental health of the individual and their family. And it's important to recognise the signs of this so that people can take steps to manage their mental health. Many rare conditions first present themselves in children and young adults, so considering the effects on their day-to-day lives is especially important.  Florence: If you'd like to learn more about how the diagnostic odyssey can affect someone, listen to our previous podcast, “Hope for those with no primary findings”, where Participant Panel member Lisa Beaton, shares her experience of awaiting a diagnosis for her daughter. And so, John, can we talk now about what happens at the end of a diagnostic odyssey?  John: A section of the odyssey that is essential to understand is potentially getting a diagnosis. It may come as a surprise to think that the diagnosis can sometimes be scary as well as a potential relief to the family and also the individual involved. But this reason the work of genetic counsellors is crucial to help those with rare conditions, understand and adapt to the medical, psychological, and potential reproductive implications of their new diagnosis.   Florence: Our previous podcast, “The impact of a genetic diagnosis on mental health” covers this topic in much more detail. So for my final question today, I wanted to ask whether there are ways that families or individuals affected by rare conditions can access support.  John: We would recommend that anyone who might be going through a diagnostic odyssey who wants to know more about their care to contact their doctor or other healthcare professionals in their genetics team, additional resources are also available online, including the NHS website and charities such as Genetic Alliance UK and SWAN UK.  There are also lots of brilliant patient communities and groups that you can get support from.   Florence: That was John Pullinger explaining what it means to go on a diagnostic odyssey. If you'd like to hear more explainer episodes like this, you can find them on our website at www.genomicsengland.co.uk.  Thank you for listening.

Allen   Welcome passive traders. Welcome to another edition of the Option Genius Podcast. Today, I am here with someone that's going to blow your mind. I'll give you his name, you probably haven't heard from him. But what he says is going to make a big difference for you. So John S. Pennington Jr. in 2008, co founded a family of private investment funds that by 2021 had over $28 billion of assets under management and completed a successful IPO on the New York Stock Exchange. John then retired that same year but remains a significant stakeholder and is now partner Emeritus at the company. He has been married 38 years with three sons, five grandchildren, and he recently wrote a book which we're going to be talking about called Dollars, Gold, and Bitcoin. It's right here, I could not put it down, you can find it on Amazon and Audible. You guys need to get a copy of this book, because we are not going to be able to talk about everything in this book on this interview. John, thank you so much for being here. John   Allen, so good to be here. Thanks for having me. Allen   So now I have done. I have heard you speak in the past. And so a few podcasts, I don't should have looked at the episode, but it's one of the past episodes called billionaire lessons. I have talked a little bit and gone over some of the things that you presented on which were covered in your book as well. So it was one of our most popular episodes, really happy that you're here. I just want to get into it. So the book is titled dollars gold and Bitcoin. Now I've already you know, talked about your successful guy you're doing well. Why did you write this book?  John   When I retired, some people asked me to speak on stage. And I, you know, I didn't charge them. And I just went to these masterminds and I thought, What do I want to talk about? And, you know, I just I looked at what everyone else talks about. And I thought, well, I got to talk about something different. So I started talking about economics and the Federal Reserve and the strength of the dollar and how, you know, the dollar is just a fantastic product worldwide. And I actually, you know, followed the Federal Reserve and how they promoted the US dollar over the years, and how they nudged people to make their product more acceptable around the world. And I kind of used that formula. In my company, or me and my partner's company, as we grew, we kind of use the same type of tactics that the Federal Reserve and the US government has used over the years to promote their number one product, which is the US dollar.  And so so it's kind of a, it's kind of reflection of my business history. But it's also a reflection of how I studied and watched the the greatest product ever become the greatest product ever. How did it get there, and then I just kind of wanted to learn from the best. So I just kind of use those tactics with me and my partners to kind of push our business kind of the same way. So that's why I kind of wrote it.  Allen   Cool. Now, you know, the first time I heard you speak, I've heard you speak twice. And the first time and second time, I'm listening to you, and you are taking these what seemed to be very random events around the world. Yes. It's like, Oh, this guy said this, made this comment. And then this person visited this country, and then nothing happened. And then that happened. And then you took all of these to me, they were just random, you know, like watching the news. You story after story. But you took them and you whoa, this intricate, detailed story that linked them all together. And I'm like, Whoa, how does this guy think like this? how do you how do you come up with this? , John   I don't I don't know. I just I just I think as an entrepreneur my whole life, I started my, well, my career, but when I was a young man, I just was really slow reader. I wasn't a good, I wasn't a good student. And I knew that I could not survive in corporate America. I just knew it would eat me alive. It didn't I just wouldn't fit there. And so I knew I had to be my own boss. And that means I probably need to just start my own companies. And so I remember looking in the mirror and this is I think I was 17 or 18. And I said to myself, these words and and I I've repeated this in the mirror, every year, 10 times a year, whatever, I don't know how many for 30 something 40 years, but I said this to myself in the mirror of John, you're not afraid of being poor. And John, you're not afraid of being old, you're just afraid of being old and poor at the same time. And that is stuck with me to push myself in the areas of, I have to start my own business, I have to save money to take risk, right. And so I started 14 businesses in my lifetime ish. And three, I've made a lot of money on obviously, the one I did with the funds and still in it made a lot of money, I three I've lost money on and the rest of them in the middle, you know, I made some money on them, they were pretty good for a while. But you know, so over those periods of time, when you'd make good money on one, you have to save the money and live beneath your means. So that when the next opportunity comes up, you have a war chest to go and try again. Because if you try a business, and it doesn't work, you lose the time and money. And sometimes I might, I've had a couple of businesses in a row not work. So you spend 910 months getting a business launched, and then you wait six, seven months, it doesn't work, and you go on men 18 months later, and now you're kind of out of money if you didn't save, and then you have another idea come up, and then you try that idea. And that's going to take a year, year and a half to figure out and spend all the money. So you always I always live below my means way below my means so that I would always have a war chest to take risk until I really, really, really made it. And when I first started my first fund in 2004, and then my second fund in 2007. And my third fund in 2008. You know, I didn't really know if it was going to work, work, work work work until about 2013. And up until that time, I was driving a car with 200,000 miles on it, you know, so but once I got there, then I got a Mercedes, you know, a small number, say a used Mercedes kind of thing. And so, but I was always I always lived beneath my means because I just knew I had to be a entrepreneur. So what I'm getting at was my business antennas, my business antennas my whole life since I was 17. I had been up trying to read listen to receive things, right? And when I graduated college in 8898, with an economics degree which if you have an economics degree, there's not a lot of really, you're not trying to do much right unless you go on to get a masters or PhD trained. Well, what do you I'm saying, right? I didn't matter I had a degree in and I wanted to start my business. My first business that I started right at night, not my first business but but my first successful business right out of college is in 1989 Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev, they took down the wall in Germany, there used to be a wall right down the middle of Berlin, a physical wall, and they took it down. And before that time, kids in Eastern Europe could not get American products. They can watch American TV or watch American movies, but they couldn't get made in USA products. And when that wall came down, there was a flood demand because the US was like this golden child. And everyone loved the US for about 99 About 95 They just love love, love anything made the USA was the best. And they wanted American huge Levi's. Or they want American Levi's jeans because Mr. Levi Strauss in San Francisco was the first guy to ever make denim jeans. And he did him with a button flying and the original was the button fly 501. Well, all over the all over the world. These were being sold for hundreds of dollars. They were a fashion gene but in the Western United States, we'd had them for 100 years they were worth jeans. We grew up with them in high school, right but so anyway, two of my partner's eventually moved to Southern Germany and I stayed in in Utah, and I collected us Levi fiber ones all over the United States, mainly the Western United States, cleaned them up, sewed them had seamstresses, scrubbing them, cleaning them up taking the stains off of them sewing, and it shipped to my partners in Germany, and they sell them to Prague and all over the western eastern states. So I could buy new fiber ones on sale for 1499 in Utah, and they would go for 100 $120 in profit. So I had my antennas up. And so when I found out early on in Ada or early on at nine that we had a friend over there in Europe saying that people were at you know, walking up to him on the street trying to buy his jeans on down for $100 100 US dollars. And we could buy them used at a thrift store over here for $6. What's the probability I can make a business so we I ran this business for nine years From 89 to about 1988 1998. We ran this was my first real big, huge business. And it was booming. I mean, we were doing a lot of jeans. I think our best year total sales was $8.5 million. US Levi's, I think that was 9094, maybe 95. Somewhere in there. But it was the fast business. And I had, you know, seems so what I'm trying to say is, you asked me the question, how do I think this way, right? If you have your business antenna up, always trying to receive some information, and someone tells you, hey, people in Austria are paying $100 For usually buy 501 jeans, and you live in a place where you can buy them for $10. You have to think of how do I make that into a business? What's the probability? Not the prediction? What's the probability I can make that into a business? And that was my first real run into business employees in Germany employees here. It was really a fantastic, great, like classic arbitrage. Yep. Just yeah, that's right. We were value adding we were cleaning them up, right. We were selling them. We were repairing them. But yeah, it was it was a kind of arbitrage. Take a product. That's a  in Nevada, or California or Utah. Move it to a place where it's a fashion gene and charge what the going rate is. Yeah.  Allen   Cool. Awesome. All right. So let's get into the book. Now. I think that correct me if I'm wrong, but the big topic or the big overwhelming subject matter of the book is how the Fed operates and how they boxed in Bitcoin, John   or the US dollar no sorry, or gold or US dollar or the Chinese yuan. The basic point of the book is, I use the example of trying to box Bitcoin in because it appears to be an a competitor to the US dollar. Right. Gold. One point is your was a part of the US dollar and competitive US dollar. And I go in the book, I dip into the Chinese yuan that has become trying to become a competitive US dollar and the Fed, Federal Reserve's  number, the US government's number one product, it sells better than hotcakes, people say it's selling like hotcakes. Well, they should start saying it's selling like the US dollar. So Allen, if I gave you $1 a second, right, like 123456. And I never stopped, never slept Neverland the restroom, it would take me 31.7 years to give you $1 billion. In other words, if you wanted to count to 1 billion, you would still be on the Zoom call this podcast 31 years from now. Right? So I tell them that on stage a lot because a lot of people misrepresent the word 1 billion they misinterpret it. They'll say John, I was just outside. And I saw this huge flock of birds, there must have been a billion birds. And I was gonna know there wasn't, you know how I know. I did the math. You know why I did the math. When my fund hit $1 billion. We started with managing $1 billion. It was like, holy cow, how much is a billion I started calculating it. 31.7 years of seconds. So when we talk about big numbers, I always do that on stage. So people really getting getting their head, how big $1 billion is and how erroneous that a lot of people use the term billion over time. So let me just do a little history for you. Okay. So, in 1914-ish, the Federal Reserve was created because there was a stock market crash in 1907, not not 2007 1907, the stock market crash. So they created the Federal Reserve. And then in 1929, we know there was a huge stock market crash again. So 1929, the country's really, really, really hurting. And then in 1933, two things happen. The SEC was created so that we would never have a crash again, okay. And in May 1933, now get this in May 1933, the president, FDR, he signed an executive order that made it illegal for your grandfather and my grandfather to own gold. So you had to sell all of your gold to the Federal Reserve. Or if you had a gold note, because it used to be that dollars were backed by gold, you had to sell your gold note your gold coin or your gold bars to the Federal Reserve. And they would give you a paper dollar for it. And then they would take that gold and put it in Fort Knox, and that gold would backup the US dollar and help us get out of the recession or the depression. And so if your grandfather, my grandfather was caught with five gold coins in their pocket, they could go to jail. This is United States of America. Okay, but it was patriotic, I think I think if you go back it was kind of patriotic. Like, we're all doing this together. We're all in together. We all have To support our number one product, the US dollar. Okay, so, so in that that was 1933. Okay. And so how long did that last year? 41? Obviously, so 1971 ish. Oh, wow. I'll get there in just a second. Okay. Yeah. So in 1944, we knew we were going to win the war. Why? Well, we were making 96,000 planes a year, and Germany was making 38,000 planes a year. We were making, I don't know if the numbers were making 21,000 tanks, they were making 4000 tanks. We just knew by math, we were gonna win the war. So 1944 44 countries sent 1000 people to a little place called Bretton Woods, New Hampshire. And they went there to reset the dollar. So the dollar was reset by the Federal Reserve in 2019 14. Then it was reset again in 1933, by the gold confiscation, and then in 1944, it was reset again. So what happened was at 1944, everyone agreed all the countries Listen, the French franc is no longer going to be backed by gold. The French franc is going to be backed by the US dollar. And the US dollar is going to be backed by gold. Why? Because this is a crazy Alan, this is a craziest This is in 1944, the United States had 66% of all gold bullion in the world. We had it here. And there are a couple of reasons. In the first part of World War Two, we didn't get involved. We were just selling our tanks, our steel, we're selling steel to Russia, they're paying us in gold. We're selling whatever to France, they're paying a single in a world war, one synth kind of same thing happened, you know, so, and we had a gold confiscation in 1933. It was illegal for a US citizen to own gold, but it wasn't in 1944. Say 1946. Okay, my granddad had a $100 bill. He couldn't turn that in for gold. But if you were a US, if you were a French citizen, and you had a $100 bill, you could turn it in for gold. Okay, so we have like we always do, we abused this thing called the world reserve currency. Okay, we abused it. And by 1971, President de Gaulle of France knew we had been printing too many paper dollars, okay. Too many paper dollars. So he sent two ships across the Atlantic with all of their US dollars. Okay. So he sends the two ships over, and he demands here's my US dollars, give me my goal. And on. It was a Sunday night, August 15 1971, President Nixon came on live TV and announced to the world. He said basically, this, market manipulators around the world are trying to hurt our US dollar. And so he said temporarily, we're going to stop having the dollar backed by gold right now. Right? So he just told to tape your show. You're not getting your gold, right. And that was a temporary fiat currency. And that has lasted till today. So it's 5354 years old ish, right? Our dollars 5354 years old. Okay. So, and it was Allen   supposed to be temporary? It was that it was supposed to be temporary?  John   That's what he said. He said, This is a temporary pause,  Allen   just like like income tax? John   Yes, exactly. So, but in 1990, am I gonna get my dates wrong? I was gonna do a cheat sheet because I don't want to mess my dates up. The 1960. The world reserve currency, the dollar was about 45% of all world reserve currency. Okay. In 2001, it was about 70 plus percent, maybe 78% of all world reserve currency is US dollars. And 19. In 2023. Just last year, my last statistics were 58%. Okay, so in 2023, US dollar is 58% of all the world reserve currency. The euro is 20%. Okay, the Chinese yuan is 2.7% of world reserve currency. Right? So we have a huge huge Headstart and a dominance with with our number one product across the world. And so we we mean you and everyone listening to this in the United States that use US dollars, we have an advantage where we we can go anywhere in the world and just throw our US dollars around and people will love them. Yeah, that's not true for other countries, right? You have to live in other countries. You just can't walk around and use your your fiat currency and just pay for things. And so we have a huge advantage. And so my question in my book is, how did that happen? How did we are the beneficiaries how do we become the beneficiaries of having most of the world use US dollars and In one way, in 1944, the Bretton Woods Agreement. No, it doesn't doesn't say this, okay. But this is kind of what happened. After World War One. Everyone's Navy is gone. China's Navy's gone. Japan's Navy's gone. Germany's Navy's gone, Italy's need is gone, France Navy's gone, everyone rushes Navy's got everyone's Navy is gone, the US has their navy intact, and Britain had some Navy still intact. Okay. And so basically what happened was we basically said, listen, navies are one of the most expensive things for a country to have. And if you just kind of agree to buy and sell your oil in US dollars, you don't even need anymore, we the United States will protect your shipping lanes. And so a little country anywhere in the world, if they buy and sell in oil in US dollars, then you don't need a navy anymore. And that allows us little countries sell their goods all over the world and take take their citizens from poverty levels up to you know, middle class. And so this is a phenomenon that's happened since 1944. Now, in 1971, when President Nixon did this, that's when our dollar became what's called the petro dollar. And that's when it really kind of heated up. And, you know, Saudi Arabia. So let's, let's just go to 1974. Okay, you live in Germany, and you want to buy a container of oil for Germany? You can't, you know, wire your Deutsche Marks from Germany down to Saudi Arabia. No, no, no, no, you have to wire your Deutsche Marks, using the SWIFT system, which will get back into the SWIFT system to the New York Fed, the New York Fed will then change your Deutsche Mark into US dollars, then you can wire US dollars to Saudi Arabia, then Saudi Arabia will send you oil, this creates insatiable demand for US dollars, right. And so to have a the number one product on the planet, by definition, you have to have insatiable demand, right? That's by definition, you have to have huge demand, right? So and the reason I know this, because we will make off the assembly line, we'll make a trillion dollars of our product, we'll make a trillion of them. And you and I will work 80 hours a week to get them more. The other people will lie, cheat and steal to get them right. They'll risk their lives on, you know, some crab ship in north north Pacific, you know, trying to get crabs and almost die trying to get more of these dollars. And then they'll will make another trillion and you Emil work 80 hours a week. Other people lie, cheat and steal. It's an insatiable demand for this product. And how did it get that way? And so to have insatiable demand, there's, I've outlined four ways in my book, one way is you tax your citizens in US dollars. So this year, I have to get us dollars to pay my taxes, I can't pay in cows, I can't pay in gold, I can't pay in Bitcoin. So that creates insatiable demand. Secondly, most countries around the world have to get us dollars to buy oil, because Saudi Arabia is the kingpin. Okay? That's it. That's the second way. A third way that you can attack a great is you create a worldwide Swift, bank to bank transfer system worldwide, where you transfer money back and forth. And it's a huge system, it's guaranteed, you know, bank to bank, and it's $1 based system. So if you want to transfer big large money from bank to bank worldwide, you have to have US dollars. And the fourth way to create insatiable demand is you can flood the world with low interest rate US dollar loans, that everyone has to pay you back for 30 years. So for 30 If you take one of these loans, for 30 years, you're gonna have to find us dollars to pay this loan back. Does that make sense? Now I'm going to stop there for questions. I got a few more things to say on that. But But do you want to any questions there Allen   that yeah, no, I'm totally with you. I mean, the SWIFT system is it's like basically, you know, you're forcing everybody to use your product, because you don't have a choice. I'm giving you money, and you have to use my system. And that's why, you know, when when they put all the sanctions on Russia a couple years ago, it was you know, supposedly, okay, we're gonna take you off the SWIFT system. Yeah. That was a mistake, big mistake. But it's like, oh, that was supposed to be the end of Russia as we know it.  John   But yeah, so I'm gonna get back to that in a minute. But that was definitely a mistake of the United States of America, because that hurt the glorification of their number one product, the US dollar, so let's go back to loans. Okay. Okay. All right. So the date is December 2018. Okay. The Federal Reserve says the economy is doing fantastic. Unemployment rate is low. You know, we're going to do next year in 2019. We're going to increase interest rates three times. Okay, great. Then less than 45 days later in December 2019, this is 45 days, they say, Oops, we made a mistake. We're not going to raise interest rates three times next year. We're going to lower interest rates three times next year. And I went, what just happened? I have an economics degree, right? Something huge just happened. I didn't know what it was. But I knew something big just happened. So I'm reading I got my antennas up trying to read everything I can. So March, a few months later, I read this report that says in Europe, there are $3 trillion $3 trillion of sovereign bonds, trading at negative interest rates. I have an economics degree. I've never read a book. I've never read a paragraph. I don't even know what a negative interest rate is. It's a bond that if you buy it, you're guaranteed mathematically to lose money. Why does that? Why would that even exist? Not in a couple billion, but 3 trillion? Why? That doesn't make any sense. Okay. And then a few months later in July, this is the summer 219, I read a new report. It's no, it's no, it's no longer 3 trillion, it's 14 trillion. What? There's $14 trillion. Okay, so then I think, okay, now I kind of know why the Federal Reserve lowered their interest rates almost to zero really fast. Because they're like, Listen, if you're going to borrow money around the world, you can borrow in Germany at zero. Or you can borrow US dollars at just a little above zero. So we're going to lower interest rates to compete, because we're trying to create insatiable demand for our number and product. And for the next three or four years, if you're just borrowing borrowing German and Spain dollars, right? That means you're not borrowing US dollars, right? And that's, that's not creating  in the future. So what did the Federal Reserve they lower interest rates, but that doesn't just do it, you have to actually go into the market. So think about what I'm about to say here. They lowered interest rates, plus the Federal Reserve went out, and they purchased bonds, $120 billion per month for over 30 months. Because when you buy bonds, buy bonds, buy bonds, buy bonds, buy bonds, the price of bonds goes up. And that means the yields go down. Right. So if every month I'm purchasing 100 billion $120 billion for the bonds, I'm keeping interest rates low, plus the Federal Reserve as interest rates low. So they keep it low for years and years and years, a few years. So that when you borrow money, you're least not borrowing someone else's money, you're borrowing our number one product, and that creates insatiable demand for their number one product. Does that make sense? Any questions? Yep. Yep. So my antennas again, back to your original question my antennas, how do I like this? My antennas are always looking for things that don't make sense. And then I try to read, how does it make sense? And when I keep putting the US dollar in the middle of things that don't make sense? It kind of makes sense. So I tell people, my book, I said, my book look, guys, ladies, I don't know if I'm right. I just I don't really run my life trying to predict the future because I don't think anyone can predict the future, right? I run my life on probabilities. And so I'm just saying the probability of me being right about the US dollar and being the number one product, Federal Reserve, and either US government and the Navy and whatever, I have a high probability of being correct, but I'm not I'm don't think I'm right. I might have a 20% probability I'm wrong. 80% that I'm right. If you don't agree with me that i Okay, fine. I agree. I might be 20% wrong, but just probability, right. So that's, that's where the essence of the book comes from. Allen   Right. Okay. Now, since you brought up the Fed, that was one of my other questions. It was in the book, you mentioned that, you know, the Fed is been out there talking a lot lately about oh, we want you know, our inflation rate to be 2%. We want unemployment to be a certain number, blah, blah, blah. But you're you've basically said that, that's what they're saying. But what they're doing is something opposite, and they actually wanted it to be much higher.  John   Yeah, so this is what happened a few years ago after the financial crisis. 2008 9, 10,  11 Okay. The world realize that the world is a lot more fragile than you think it is. So Germany, not in Germany, sorry, Russia and China started buying gold. And every year they bought more gold and we're going to 1013 they bought more gold 2014 They kept buying gold. And I was watching this going okay. You know it listen, if I if I ran China, I was president of China. I would not like the fact that I have to get us dollars to buy Oil, that. And so I'm not blaming China, I'm not blaming Russia, I'm just saying, I'm on this side of the negotiating table there on that side, I'm just explaining their side. So they might have got together and said, Listen, in the future, we think the US dollar is going to have some cracks in it. And if it ever has a big crack, we can introduce the Russian ruble and the Chinese yuan as alternative currencies. And therefore, then we can start buying oil in our own currency that they're planning in the future. I see US presidents are kind of like temporary employees. They're 40 years, Putin has been president for what 27-28 years, they'll probably be president for another 20 years. We don't know. Xi Jinping is usually I've said his name, right. He changed the Constitution, and allows him the option to be president for Life for life. Yeah, yeah. So these guys are long term strategist, our president has to get reelected. He's a temporary employee, so they have an advantage over us. Okay. So anyway, so then a few years back, China and Russia, say, you know, we should do let's start $1 called the BRICS dollar, we'll call it Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. And these countries will come together and have their own dollar called the BRICS dollar that is going to be backed by commodities. So if you have a barrel of oil, you get so many bricks dollars, if you have a bushel of wheat, you get so many bricks, if you have gold, you get so many bricks dollars, and they've been trying to launch this for years. Okay, so, so obviously, the Fed seeing this, and that's a competitor to the US dollar, and it's going to be a competitor to US dollar. So the Fed is strategically trying to move around to to make sure that doesn't happen. And that might explain why, you know, Putin, one of the reasons Putin took over Ukraine, Ukraine has a lot of oil and a lot of wheat. And he's like, the BRICS dollars going to be real in a couple of years. If I have all this, we know I get more brickstone That might be one of the reasons, okay. So. So the Fed trying to in this last year and a half just or two years, raising interest rates, the Fed to protect their number one product, and this is this theory. And again, I know your some of your listeners are gonna say, John, you're just you're being way too conspiracy. But when there's a lot of money on the table, a lot of crazy things happen because people coordinate a lot of things. Anyway, I think it's coordinate because the US dollar is the waterline in the table. So a few years back, China started to try to buy oil from Saudi Arabia using the yuan, because China is a big oil importer. Okay. And so far, I think we so far, I don't think Saudi Arabia has done it yet. But and not just to convince Saudi Arabia not to do it. The Fed i Okay, let's, let's just hypothecate the Fed wants to hurt China wants to lower their acceptance of the yuan around the world, and you want only accepted by 2.7% of world currency. So it's not that big a threat yet, but it could be in the future. Okay. So China does it to themselves. They have a big huge that in the last two years, they have a big, huge real estate collapse. They have a big huge employment collapse. Hundreds of companies have moved out of China to Germany have hundreds of companies from Germany, Japan and the United States have moved out of China. They've gone to India, they've gone to Thailand, they've gone to South Korea, all countries that purchase their oil in US dollars. China has been trying to purchase oil, not using US dollars. So we got to hurt that we have to hurt that country, because Okay, so how can I hurt that country? Well, one, China has said they're going to de dollarized the world. China said we're going to start selling our US Treasuries. Okay. Okay. So what we can do so let's just say, the Federal Reserve to make sure every time China sells US Treasuries, they lose a lot of money, because they bought US Treasuries back when bond prices were low. So let's just say if the Fed wanted to get interest rates to five and a half 6%. Okay, I thought it was gonna go six and a half, but it went to five and a quarter, five and a half. Okay. They can't tell you and me, Alan, hey, you a US citizens. We're just gonna raise interest rates to 2% because inflation is 2%. And we'd go Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. But if inflation is 2%, they could never convince us that they can raise to five and a half percent. That'd be egregious, right? But wait, if inflation is 9%, then you and I would accept 5% interest rates. Right, right. We don't like it, but we realize everyone has. Okay, so how do I get it? How do I get inflation to 9% when it's been almost zero for years and years and years and years and years? You print a lot of money. You see inflation come along, and it goes from zero to 2%. And you tell everyone with your mouth, on a microphone, it's transitory. It's just transfer Everyone calm down. Then a few months later, it goes to 3% inflation. Now, we're not going to move rates, we're going to keep rates low, at a quarter percent, we're not going to raise them because transitory it goes to 4%. And they let it run, it goes to five, it goes to six. And then they say, Well, maybe it's not transitory, maybe we need to raise interest rates, then it goes to seven, they started raising interest rates, and it goes to nine, and they're able to raise interest rates to five and a quarter percent, the fastest rate in history. And they lit they stopped, they stopped them there. Why? Because if they every time, they have interest rates sitting at five and five and a quarter percent, every time China goes to sell their US Treasuries, they get killed financially, it kills them. So my conspiracy theory is, hey, if the number one job of the Federal Reserve is to protect and promote the US dollar, they have ancillary jobs, low unemployment, high GDP, I get it, but their number one job, their baseline job is to predict or promote the US dollar, then, if they have a competitor to the US dollar, China coming around, we need to crush China's dollar. And right now, China prints more money than we do. Because they're huge depression right now, because of all the things that happened to him. And so they're selling all this, you know, US Treasuries, because they have to, because they don't want to because they're losing money on it. Why? Because they're trying to keep their economy afloat. Now, the Fed is sending a message to Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia, aren't you so glad? That a few years back, you didn't start selling your oil in yuan? Because you would have billions of you want in your bank right now? And the yuan is tanking. Right. So people say now, five or six years ago, if you told me, I agreed China was going to take over the world, China was going to be a superpower with us now. I don't believe that anymore. Clearly. Okay. China has had 40 years of the fastest economy growth ever, right? No society has ever grown faster than China has last 40 years. And they're only 2.7% of the world reserve currency. So are you telling me if they have the same growth for next 40 years? They would be 7%? No, I'm saying. Allen   I have to interrupt this message. Because I am super excited. I haven't been this excited about something in trading since I first discovered trading options. Okay, it is that important. Now, look, this is a new strategy that I've discovered recently, that is just out there, kicking butt and taking names. I can't give you all the details here. But if you go to market power method.com and get all the information again, that's market power. method.com. Trust me, you want to know what this is. Now back to the show. John   And so when someone says we're going to replace the US dollar, I give them this example. And I love people in Arizona. I love Arizona, but I'm just gonna give this example. Okay, it's not it's just a hypothetical. Let's just say you and me agree that all the water in Arizona is bad. Okay, we both agree. What do you want to do? Well, we want to, we want to, we want to replace it with Gatorade, okay, so we searched the whole world for all the Gatorade in the world, and we bring it back. And it's not even a drop. We can't even, we can't even begin. So if you want to replace the US dollar, you have to replace it with something, you just can't not have it anymore. You have to replace the water with something. And there's not enough of anything that none of you want in the world, none of euros. There's nothing in the world big enough to replace the US dollar for years and decades to come. So the US dollar in the dominance is going to be around for a long time. Now the BRICS dollar, they're going to chip away at it right. So China, you know, is a net importer of oil, and they're a net importer of food. The United States is a net exporter of oil and an exporter of food. We have a geographic advantage over most countries on the planet. We can have a bad precedent, bad precedent, bad precedent, bad precedent, bad precedent. And we still kind of survived because we have things that other people don't have. The Mississippi Valley is two thirds of the country. Although arbitrary rivers, you can it's a slow moving river, you can put grain on that barge and floated anywhere. A lot of countries don't have that. And we produce a lot of oil and a lot of everything. And we just have a kind of an advantage over most countries. So China has got to, you know, build pipelines as quick as possible to Russia. They have to solve their oil problem, because without solving their oil problem, supply they You can't attack Taiwan. Because our aircraft carriers, our Navy could cut off most of their oil within 120 days. It all comes mostly over the water until China gets that pipeline. Right. And they know it. They know that they are. They're not ready. They have an Achilles heel. So let me give you a crazy thing that happened in in the news just last year. I'm reading the report watching the news. China brokered a peace deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Why? Doesn't even make any sense. But if you put the US dollar in there, it makes sense. So China is trying to de dollarized the world. They go to Iran, they say Iran, listen, who do you hate more? United States or Saudi Arabia? Oh, we hate the United States. Okay, fine. Okay, listen, if you want to really, really hurt United States, we have to de dollarized the world. Okay, how we're gonna do that? Well, one way is you can stop attacking Saudi Arabia, because the United States has an aircraft carrier off the side of Saudi Arabia to protect Saudi Arabia against you. And Saudi Arabia needs the aircraft carrier, and the F 30. Fives on their bases and 5000 troops in Saudi Arabia, they need all that. That's why they can't sell oil from Saudi Arabia to China and the yuan, because they have to keep being in good graces with the United States. Because Saudi needs that military protection. But Iran if you stop attacking Saudi Arabia, maybe this year, next year, Saudi Arabia goes You don't want we don't need military protection anymore. So we're going to start selling our oil to shock to China in the yuan. And then the the domino effect, the US dollar comes crumbling down over years, and the United States power around the world gets demolished. So again, back to my probabilities. The Alan, I don't know if I'm wrong. It just seems when I put the US dollar in crazy situations. It makes total sense. Now, a few months later, President Biden realized he was losing the battle in the the, you know, the whatever battle you want to call it in the Middle East. What does he do? He takes his number one product, the US dollar, and he sends I think about $6 billion to Iran in humanitarian aid. That's his number. I'm proud to say I ran I ran And we're still your friends. If you're gonna trade around the world, here's some US dollars to trade in. Right, Allen   right. Yeah, that came out of nowhere. It was like, what, what's going on? John   Why, why? Why? Why do you do that? Because a few months earlier, there was a peace agreement between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Why? Because they want to de dollarized. They want to convince Saudi Arabia. They don't need us, Doc, but but the Fed is now still sending. There's two messages, right. And so about a year ago, year and a half ago, President Biden flew to Saudi Arabia. The thing about this, President states flies to see the prince. The prince didn't come to see him. He went to see the prince. Now we don't know what he said. Allen   And everybody made fun of him. Everybody, ever they funded media was all I got. I John   gotta give President Biden kudos. Right? Because I think I know what he was doing. I think he was over there convincing the Saudi prince not to sell oil in anything but US dollars. He creates because Allen   they had made an announcement. Before that happened. They had made an announcement that we're going to we're going to switch and we're going to do both or something that I remember something's right. Yeah. John   So if you ever take a negotiation class, okay. There is there's a lot of different ways to negotiate. But one of the ways one of the tricks in negotiation is you ask a question to your opponent, and then you let them try to answer it. So we I don't know what I don't know what President Biden said. But he could have said this. Okay. Mr. Saudi prince, if you start selling your oil to China in the yuan, all right. How am I as the US President going to convince the US Congress to pay for aircraft carriers off your coast 5000 troops on your soil, sell you f 30 fives, and then also give you satellite information from our secret satellites? How are we going to pay for all that? If you start selling your oil in you want then what you do in negotiation? You zip your lip, you shut up, you say no more and you sit back. And you you allow your opponent to try to very uncomfortably answer your question. And they sit there and go. Well, you can no you could you Oh, you know what? You know what, Mr. President, you can't convince Congress to pay for all that. Exactly. So therefore don't sell your oil to China in year one. And then a few years later, guess what? The Yuan is crashing because they're spending so much money. because we got interest rates up to five, because we want to win because we got the inflation to nine. So we five and now the Chinese economy look China did to themselves, we just poured gas on. Okay, one more example. That is. So we know of two people that sold a lot of oil not using US dollars. And that was Moammar Qaddafi of Libya, and Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Both of these gentlemen, I don't know how else to say it a few years after they did this large sales of oil without using US dollars. Both of these gentlemen were killed. They left the planet. And I'm not saying the US killed them. What I am saying is the US backed away from them, and let other people get them all the way, you know, take them out, right. So the last person that we know of that is doing oil and gas, not using is Putin. Putin said less Jaffa the war, he says, you know, after we took him off the SWIFT system, which we shouldn't have done, we should have left them on SWIFT system to keep them using US dollars. We took them on SWIFT system, we weaponize the US dollar. And that allowed China and Brazil go wait a minute. If the government the United States can seize my US Dollars anytime they want, then the US dollar really isn't a store of value. It's that yeah, that woke the world up a little bit. And we shouldn't have done it. Right, because our number one product is now damaged a little bit. Okay. But anyway, so Putin says, hey, you know, we're going to do so Putin goes into Ukraine and button think about the rhetoric. Biden says, We think Putin, you're a bad guy you gotta get out of Ukraine. Then Putin says, we're no longer selling our oil and gas, we're only going to take rubles and gold. Then Biden changed his rhetoric. Biden said, we now need a regime change in Russia. That's way different than saying we need you out of Ukraine. When you say I need a regime change, I think about Moammar Qaddafi, and Saddam Hussein. Right. That's a big difference. Okay. So what happened was a few months after that, after Putin says we're not selling, we're not selling oil and gas. With us dollars anymore. There's there's a pipeline, there's two pipelines that go under this was this was hilarious, isn't it? Yeah. There are two pipelines. They go from Russia under the Baltic Sea to Germany, and they sell Germany natural gas. Well, a few months after this happened that Putin said, I'm not going to take us dollars anymore. Someone with a submarine blew up. Nord Stream one and Nord Stream to Allen   someone we don't know who know, they claim responsibility, John   no responsibility. And I'm sure I'm sure that you know, President Biden, when he talks to the Saudi prince goes, Hey, Saudi prince, we're so glad you're still you know, selling all of your oil in US dollars. No one by the way. Did you hear about Nord Stream? One Nord Stream two? Yeah, crazy, right? We live in a crazy, crazy world. It's just I'm sure he reminds everyone this right? That you don't mess with the number one product the United States, you just don't mess with it. Right? So this is all these are all chapters in my book, at least the first half of the book, you know, a lot of economics that I'm trying to about. I'm just trying to get people to think on a different level. And a different thing that kids these days like to play these video games all weekend long, they'll go on three day weekend, you know, never go to sleep. Well, this what I've explained to you is the biggest game ever invented. Yep, there is no bigger game. And when I'm explaining to it's the biggest risk game, the biggest global game. It's the biggest game ever. And I'm studying it and watching it. And it is fascinating to me. And I don't even know if I'm right. But man when I keep doing probabilities, and it just seems I'm right.  

Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 8 – It's a Story, Not a Checklist! Guest: Dr. John Staley Mike Wallus: There's something magical about getting lost in a great story. Whether you're reading a book, watching a movie, or listening to a friend, stories impart meaning, and they capture our imagination. Dr. John Staley thinks a lot about stories. On this episode of Rounding Up, we'll talk with John about the ways that he thinks that the concept of story can impact our approach to the content we teach and the practices we engage in to support our students.  Well, John, welcome to the podcast. We're really excited to talk with you today. John Staley: I'm glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation, and thank you for having me. Mike: So when we spoke earlier this year, you were sharing a story with me that I think really sets up the whole interview. And it was the story of how you and your kids had engaged with the themes and the ideas that lived in the Harry Potter universe. And I'm wondering if you could just start by sharing that story again, this time with the audience. John: OK. When I was preparing to present for a set of students over at Towson University and talking to them about the importance of teaching and it being a story. So the story of Harry Potter really began for me with our family—my wife, Karen, and our three children—back in '97 when the first book came out. Our son Jonathan was nine at that time and being a reader and us being a reading family, we came together. He would read some, myself and my wife would read some, and our daughter Alexis was five, our daughter Mariah was three. So we began reading Harry Potter. And so that really began our journey into Harry Potter. Then when the movies came out, of course we went to see the movies and watch some of those on TV, and then sometimes we listened to the audio books. And then as our children grew, because Harry Potter took, what, 10 years to develop the actual book series itself, he's 19 now, finally reading the final book. By then our three-year-old has picked them up and she's begun reading them and we're reading. So we're through the cycle of reading with them.  But what they actually did with Harry Potter, when you think about it, is really branch it out from just books to more than books. And that right there had me thinking. I was going in to talk to teachers about the importance of the story in the mathematics classroom and what you do there. So that's how Harry Potter came into the math world for me, [chuckles] I guess you can say. Mike: There's a ton about this that I think is going to become clear as we talk a little bit more.  One of the things that really struck me was how this experience shaped your thinking about the ways that educators can understand their role when it comes to math content and also instructional practice and then creating equitable systems and structures. I'm wondering if we can start with the way that you think this experience can inform an educator's understanding for content. So in this case, the concepts and ideas in mathematics. Can you talk about that, John? John: Yeah, let's really talk about the idea of what happens in a math classroom being a story. The teaching and learning of mathematics is a story that, what we want to do is connect lesson to lesson and chapter to chapter and year to year.  So when you think about students' stories, and let's start pre-K. When students start coming in pre-K and learning pre-K math, and they're engaging in the work they do in math with counting and cardinality initially, and as they grow across the years, especially in elementary, and they're getting the foundation, it's still about a story. And so how do we help the topics that we're taught, the grade level content become a story? And so that's the connection to Harry Potter for me, and that's what helped me elevate and think about Harry Potter because when you think about what Harry Potter and the whole series did, they've got the written books. So that's one mode of learning for people for engaging in Harry Potter.  Then they went from written books to audiobooks, and then they went from audiobooks to movies. And so some of them start to overlap, right? So you got written books, you got audiobooks, you got movies—three modes of input for a learner or for an audience or for me, the individual interested in Harry Potter, that could be interested in it. And then they went to additional podcasts, Harry Potter and the Sacred Text and things like that. And then they went to this one big place called Universal Studios where they have Harry Potter World. That's immersive. That I can step in; I can put on the robes; I can put the wand in my hand. I can ride on, I can taste, so my senses can really come to play because I'm interactive and engaged in this story. When you take that into the math classroom, how do we help that story come to life for our students? Let's talk one grade. So it feels like the content that I'm learning in a grade, especially around number, around algebraic thinking, around geometry, and around measurement and data. Those topics are connected within the grade, how they connect across the grade and how it grows. So the parallel to Harry Potter's story—there's, what, seven books there? And so you have seven books, and they start off with this little young guy called Harry, and he's age 11. By the time the story ends, he's seven years later, 18 years old. So just think about what he has learned across the years and how what they did there at Hogwarts and the educators and all that kind of stuff has some consistency to it. Common courses across grade levels, thinking, in my mind, common sets of core ideas in math: number, algebra, thinking, geometry, measurement of data. They grow across each year. We just keep adding on.  So think about number. You're thinking with base ten. You then think about how fractions show up as numbers, and you're thinking about operations with whole numbers, base ten, and fractions. You think about decimals and then in some cases going into, depending if you're K–8 or K–5, you might even think about how this plays into integers. But you think about how that's all connected going across and the idea of, “What's the story that I need to tell you so that you understand how math is a story that's connected?” It's not these individual little pieces that don't connect to each other, but they connect somehow in some manner and build off of each other. Mike: So there are a couple of things I want to pick up on here that are interesting. When you first started talking about this, one of the things that jumped out for me is this idea that there's a story, but we're not necessarily constrained to a particular medium. The story was first articulated via book, but there are all of these ways that you can engage with the story. And you talked about the immersive experience that led to a level of engagement. John: Mm-hmm. Mike: And I think that is helping me make sense of this analogy—that there's not necessarily one mode of building students' understanding. We actually need to think about multiple modes. Am I picking up on that right? John: That's exactly right. So what do I put in my tool kit as an educator that allows me to help tap into my students' strengths, to help them understand the content that they need to understand that I'm presenting that day, that week, that month, that I'm helping build their learning around? And in the sense of thinking about the different ways Harry Potter can come at you—with movies, with audio, with video—I think about that from the math perspective. What do I need to have in my tool kit when it comes to my instructional practices, the types of routines I establish in the classroom?  Just think about the idea of the mathematical tools you might use. How do the tools that you use play themselves out across the years? So students working with the different manipulatives that they might be using, the different mathematical tools, a tool that they use in first grade, where does that tool go in second grade, third grade, fourth grade, as they continue to work with whole numbers, especially with doing operations, with whatever the tool might be? Then what do you use with fractions? What tools do you use with decimals? We need to think about what we bring into the classroom to help our students understand the story of the mathematics that they're learning and see it as a story. Is my student in a more concrete stage? Do they need to touch it, feel it, move it around? Are they okay visually? They need to see it now, they're at that stage. They're more representational so they can work with it in a different manner or they're more abstract. Hmm. Oh, OK. And so how do we help put all of that into the setting? And how are we prepared as classroom teachers to have the instructional practices to meet a diverse set of students that are sitting in our classrooms? Mike: You know, the other thing you're making me think about, John, is this idea of concepts and content as a story. And what I'm struck by is how different that is than the way I was taught to think about what I was doing in my classroom, where it felt more like a checklist or a list of things that I was tracking. And oftentimes those things felt disconnected even within the span of a year.  But I have to admit, I didn't find myself thinking a lot about what was happening to grade levels beyond mine or really thinking about how what I was doing around building kindergartners' understanding of the structure of number or ten-ness. John: Mm-hmm. Mike: How that was going to play out in, say, fifth grade or high school or what have you. You're really causing me to think how different it is to think about this work we're doing as story rather than a discrete set of things that are kind of within a grade level. John: When you say that, it also gets me thinking of how we quite often see our content as being this mile-wide set of content that we have to teach for a grade level. And what I would offer in the space is that when you think about the big ideas of what you really need to teach this year, let's just work with number. Number base ten, or, if you're in the upper elementary, number base ten and fractions. If you think about the big ideas that you want students to walk away with that year, those big ideas continue to cycle around, and those are the ones that you're going to spend a chunk of your time on. Those are the ones you're going to keep bringing back. Those are the ones you're going to keep exposing students to in multiple ways to have them make sense of what they're doing. And the key part of all of that is the understanding, the importance of the vertical nature as to what is it I want all of my students sitting in my classroom to know and be able to do, have confidence in, have their sense of agency. Like, “Man, I can show you. I can do it, I can do it.” What do we want them to walk away with that year? So that idea of the vertical nature of it, and understanding your learning progressions, and understanding how number grows for students across the years is important. Why do I build student understanding with a number line early? So that when we get the fractions, they can see fractions as numbers. So later on when we get the decimals, they can see decimals as numbers, and I can work with it. So the vertical nature of where the math is going, the learning progression that sits behind it, helps us tell the story so that students, when they begin and you are thinking about their prior knowledge, activate that prior knowledge and build it, but build it as part of the story.  The story piece also helps us think about how we elevate and value our students in the classroom themselves. So that idea of seeing our students as little beings, little people, really, versus just us teaching content. When you think about the story of Harry Potter, I believe he survived across his time at Hogwarts because of relationships. Our students make it through the math journey from year to year to year to year because of relationships. And where they have strong relationships from year to year to year to year, their journey is a whole lot better. Mike: Let's make a small shift in our conversation and talk a little bit about this idea of instructional practice. John: OK.  Mike: I'm wondering how this lived experience with your family around the Harry Potter universe, how you think that would inform the way that an educator would think about their own practice? John: I think about it in this way. As I think about myself being in the classroom—and I taught middle school, then high school—I'm always thinking about what's in my tool kit. I think about the tools that I use and the various manipulatives, the various visual representations that I need to have at my fingertips. So part of what my question would be, and I think about it, is what are those instructional strategies that I will be using and how do I fine-tune those? What are my practices I'm using in my routines to help it feel like, “OK, I'm entering into a story”?  Harry Potter, when you look at those books, across the books, they had some instructional routines happening, some things that happen every single year. You knew there was going to be a quidditch match. You knew they were going to have some kind of holiday type of gathering or party or something like that. You knew there was going to be some kind of competition that happened within each book that really, that competition required them to apply the knowledge and skills from their various courses that they learned. They had a set of core courses that they took, and so it wasn't like in each individual course that they really got to apply. They did in some cases, they would try it out, they'd mess up and somebody's nose would get big, ears would get big, you know, change a different color. But really, when they went into some of those competitions, that's when the collection of what they were learning from their different courses, that's when the collection of the content. So how do we think about providing space for students to show what they know in new settings, new types of problems? Especially in elementary, maybe it's science application type problems, maybe they're doing something with their social studies and they're learning a little bit about that. As an educator, I'm also thinking about, “Where am I when it comes to my procedural, the conceptual development, and the ability to think through and apply the applications?” And so I say that part because I have to think about students coming in, and how do I really build this? How do I strike this balance of conceptual and procedural? When do I go conceptual? When do I go procedural? How do I value both of them? How do I elevate that? And how do I come to understand it myself? Because quite often the default becomes procedural when my confidence as a teacher is not real deep with building it conceptually. I'm not comfortable, maybe, or I don't have the set of questions that go around the lesson and everything. So I've got to really think through how I go about building that out. Mike: That is interesting, John, because I think you put your finger on something. I know there have been points in time during my career when I was teaching even young children where we'd get to a particular idea or concept, and my perception was, “Something's going on here and the kids aren't getting it.” But what you're causing me to think is often in those moments, the thing that had changed is that I didn't have a depth of understanding of what I was trying to do. Not to say that I didn't understand the concept myself or the mathematics, but I didn't have the right questions to draw out the big ideas, or I didn't have a sense of, “How might students initially think about this and how might their thinking progress over time?” So you're making me think about this idea that if I'm having that moment where I'm feeling frustrated, kids aren't understanding, it might be a point in time where I need to think to myself, “OK, where am I in this? How much of this is me wanting to think back and say, what are the big ideas that I'm trying to accomplish? What are the questions that I might need to ask?” And those might be things that I can discover through reflection or trying to make more sense of the mathematics or the concept. But it also might be an opportunity for me to say, “What do my colleagues know? Are there ways that my colleagues are thinking about this that I can draw on rather than feeling like I'm on an island by myself?” John: You just said the key point there. I would encourage you to get connected to someone somehow. As you go through this journey together, there are other teachers out there that are walking through what they're walking through, teaching the grade level content. And that's when you are able to talk deeply about math. Mike: The other thing you're making me think about is that you're suggesting that educators just step back from whether kids are succeeding or partially succeeding or struggling with a task and really step back and saying, like, “OK, what's the larger set of mathematics that we're trying to build here? What are the big ideas?” And then analyzing what's happening through that lens rather than trying to think about, “How do I get kids to success on this particular thing?” Does that make sense? Tell me more about what you're thinking. John: So when I think about that one little thing, I have to step back and ask myself the question, “How and where does that one thing fit in the whole story of the unit?" The whole story of the grade level. And when I say the grade level, I'm thinking about those big ideas that sit into the big content domains, the big idea number. How does this one thing fit into that content domain? Mike: That was lovely. And it really does help me have a clearer picture of the way in which concepts and ideas mirror the structures of stories in that, like, there are threads and connections that I can draw on from my previous experience to understand what's happening now. You're starting to go there.  So let's just talk about where you see parallels to equitable systems and structures in the experience that you had with Harry Potter when you were in that world with your family. John: First, let's think about this idea of grouping structures. And so when you think about the idea of groups and the way groups are used within the classroom, and you think about the equitable nature of homogeneous, heterogeneous, random groupings, truly really thinking about that collectively. And I say collectively in this sense, when you think about the parallel to the Harry Potter story, they had a grouping structure in place. They had a random sorting. Now who knows how random it was sometimes, right? But they had a random sorting the minute the students stepped into the school. And they got put into one of the four houses. But even though they had that random sorting then, and they had the houses structured, those groups, those students still had opportunities as they did a variety of things—other than the quidditch tournaments and some other tournaments—they had the opportunity where as a collection of students coming from the various houses, if they didn't come together, they might not have survived that challenge, that competition, whatever it was. So the idea of grouping and grouping structures and how we as educators need to think about, “What is it really doing for our students when we put them in fixed groups? And how is that not of a benefit to our students? And how can we really go about using the more random grouping?”  One of the books that I'm reading is Building Thinking Classrooms [in Mathematics: Grades K–12: 14 Teaching Practices for Enhancing Learning]. And so I'm reading Peter [Liljedahl]'s book and I'm thinking through it in the chapter when he talks about grouping. I think I read that chapter and highlighted and tapped every single page in it multiple times because it really made me think about what's really happening for our students when we think about grouping. So one structure and one part to think about is, “What's happening when we think we're doing our grouping that's not really getting students engaged in the lesson, keeping them engaged, and benefiting them from learning?” Another part, and I don't know if this is a part of equitable systems and structures or just when I think about equity work: One of the courses that they had to take at Hogwarts was about the history of wizarding. I bring that up in this space because they learned about the history of what went on with wizards and what went on with people. And to me, in my mindset, that's setting up and showing the importance of us sharing the history and bringing the history of our students—their culture, their backgrounds, in some cases their lived experiences—into the classroom. So that's us connecting with our students' culture and being culturally responsive and bringing that into the classroom. So as far as an equitable structure, the question I would ask you to think about is, “Do my students see themselves in my mathematics classroom?”  And I say it that way versus “in the mathematics,” because some people will look at the problems in the math book and say, “Oh, I don't see them there. I don't see, oh, their names, their culture, their type of foods.” Some of those things aren't in the written work in front of you. But what I would offer is the ability for me as the educator to use visuals in my classroom, the ability for me to connect with the families in my classroom and learn some of their stories, learn some of their backgrounds—not necessarily learn their stories, but learn about them and bring that in to the space—that's for me to do. I don't need a textbook series that will do that for me. And as a matter of fact, I'm not sure if a textbook series can do that for you, for all the students that you have in your classroom or for the variety of students that you have in your classroom, when we think about their backgrounds, their culture, where they might come from. So thinking about that idea of cultural responsiveness, and really, if you think about the parallel in the Harry Potter series, the history of wizarding and the interaction, when you think about the interaction piece between wizards and what they call Muggles, right? That's the interactions between our students, learning about other students, learning about other cultures, learning about diverse voices. That's teaching students how to engage with and understand others and learn about others and come to value that others have voice also. Mike: I was just thinking, John, if I were to critique Hogwarts, I do wonder about the houses. Because in my head, there is a single story that the reader comes to think about anyone who is in Harry's house versus, say, like Slytherin house. John: Yes. Mike: And it flattens anyone who's in Slytherin house into bad guys, right? John: Mm-hmm. Mike: And so it makes me think there's that element of grouping where as an educator, I might tell a single story about a particular group, especially if that group is fixed and it doesn't change. But there's also, like, what does that do internally to the student who's in that group? What does that signal to them about their own identity? Does that make sense? John: That does make sense. And so when you think about the idea of grouping there at Hogwarts, and you think about these four fixed groups, because they were living in these houses, and once you got in that house, I don't think anybody moved houses. Think about the impact on students. If you put them in a group and they stay in that group and they never change groups, you will have students who realize that the way you did your groups and the way you named your groups and the way they see others in other groups getting more, doing different, and things like that. That's a nice caution to say the labels we put on our groups. Our kids come to internalize them and they come to, in some cases, live up to the level of expectations that we set for “just that group.” So if you're using fixed groups or thinking about fixed groups, really I'd offer that you really get into some of the research around groups and think, “What does it do for students?” And not only what does it do for students in your grade, but how does that play out for students across grades? If that student was in the group that you identified as the “low group” in grade 2, [exhales] what group did they show up in grade 3? How did that play with their mindset? Because you might not have said those words in front of students, but our students pick up on being in a fixed group and watching and seeing what their peers can do and what their peers can't do, what their group members can do and what their group can't do. As our students grow from grades 2 to 3, 4, 5, that really has an impact. There's somewhere between grade 3 and 5 where students' confidence starts to really shake. And I wonder how much of it is because of the grouping and types of grouping that is being used in the classroom that has me in a group of, “Oh, I am a strong doer [of mathematics]” or, “Oh, I'm not a good doer of mathematics.” And that, how much of that just starts to resonate with students, and they start to pick that up and carry that with them, an unexpected consequence because we thought we were doing a good thing when we put 'em in this group. Because I can pull them together, small group them, this and that. I can target what I need to do with them in that moment. Yeah, target what you need to do in that moment, but mix them up in groups. Mike: Just to go back and touch on the point that you started with. Building Thinking Classrooms has a lot to say about that particular topic among others, and it's definitely a book that, for my money, has really caused me to think about a lot of the practices that I used to engage in because I believed that they were the right thing to do. It's a powerful read. For anyone who hasn't read that yet, I would absolutely recommend it. John: And one last structure that I think we can speak to. I've already spoken to supports for students, but the idea of a coherent curriculum is I think an equitable structure that systems put in place that we need to put in place that you need to have in place for your students. And when I say a coherent curriculum, I'm thinking not just your one grade, but how does that grow across the grades? It's something for me, the teacher, to say, “I need to do it my way, this way…”. But it's more to say, “Here's the role I play in their pre-K to 12 journey.” Here's the chapter I'm going to read to them this year to help them get their deep understanding of whichever chapter it was, whichever book it happened to be of.  In the case of the parallel of Harry Potter, here's the chapter I'm doing. I'm the third grade chapter, I'm the fourth grade chapter, I'm the fifth grade chapter. And the idea of that coherent curriculum allows the handoff to the next and the entry from the prior to be smoother. Many of the curriculums, when you look at them, a K–5 curriculum series will have those coherent pieces designed in it—similar types of tools, similar types of manipulatives, similar types of question prompts, similar types of routines—and that helps students build their confidence as they grow from year to year. And so to that point, it's about this idea of really thinking about how a coherent curriculum helps support equity because you know your students are getting the benefit of a teacher who is building from their prior knowledge because they've paid attention to what came before in this curriculum series and preparing them for where they're going. And that's quite often what the power of a coherent curriculum will do.  The parallel in the Harry Potter series, they had about five to seven core courses they had to take. I think about the development of those courses. Boom. If I think about those courses as a strand of becoming a wizard, [laughs] how did I grow from year to year to year to year in those strands that I was moving across? Mike: Okay, I have two thoughts. One, I fully expect that when this podcast comes out, there's going to be a large bump in whoever is tracking the sale of the Harry Potter series on Amazon or wherever it is.  John: [laughs] Mike: But the other question I wanted to ask you is what are some books outside of the Harry Potter universe that you feel like you'd recommend to an educator who's wanting to think about their practice in terms of content or instructional practices or the ways that they build equitable structure? John: When I think about the works around equitable structure, I think about The Impact of Identity and K–8 Mathematics: Rethinking Equity-Based Practices by Julia Aguirre, Karen Mayfield-Ingram, and Danny Martin as being one to help step back and think about how am I thinking about what I do and how it shows up in the classroom with my students.  Another book that I just finished reading: Humanizing Disability in Mathematics Education[: Forging New Paths]. And my reason for reading it was I continue to think about what else can we do to help our students who are identified, who receive special education services? Why do we see so many of our students who sit in an inclusive environment—they're in the classroom on a regular basis; they don't have an IEP that has a math disability listed or anything along those lines—but they significantly underperform or they don't perform as well as their peers that don't receive special education services. So that's a book that got me just thinking and reading in that space.  Another book that I'm reading now, or rereading, and I'll probably reread this one at least once a year, is Motivated[: Designing Mathematics Classrooms Where Students Want to Join In] by Ilana [Seidel] Horn. And the reason for this one is the book itself, when you read it, is written with middle schools' case stories. Part of what this book is tackling is what happens to students as they transition into middle school. And the reason why I mentioned this, especially if you're elementary, is somewhere between third grade and fifth grade, that process of students' self-confidence decreasing their beliefs in themselves as doers of math starts to fall apart. They start to take the chips in the armor. And so this book, Motivated itself, really does not speak to this idea of intrinsic motivation. “Oh, my students are motivated.” It speaks to this idea of by the time the students get to a certain age, that upper fifth grade, sixth grade timeframe, what shifts is their K, 1, 2, 3, “I'm doing everything to please my teacher.” By [grades] 4 or 5, I'm realizing, “I need to be able to show up for my peers. I need to be able to look like I can do for my peers.” And so if I can't, I'm backing out. I'm not sharing, I'm not volunteering, I'm not “engaging.”  So that's why I bring it into this elementary space because it talks about five pieces of a motivational framework that you can really push in on, and not that you push in on all five at one time. [chuckles] But you pick one, like meaningfulness, and you push in on that one, and you really go at, “How do I make the mathematics more meaningful for my students, and what does it look like? How do I create that safe space for them?” That's what you got to think about. Mike: Thanks. That's a great place to stop. John Staley, thank you so much for joining us. It's really been a pleasure. John: Thank you for having me. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. ©2023 The Math Learning Center - www.mathlearningcenter.org

Money can't buy love, but it can certainly start some spicy debates between you and your better half. In this episode, we're digging into the financial face-offs that make Monopoly fights look like child's play and exploring some money minefields that can test even the most solid relationships. Listen in as we explore how to resolve some of the most common financial sources of tension between couples.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com if you've got questions or concerns about your retirement strategy or lack thereof.   This week we're going to be talking about 'til debt do us part, resolving potential financial sources of tension between couples, because let's be honest, married couples fight, and often it's about money. That's usually the number one reason that we get into arguments. So we've got five that we want to identify and talk through a little bit and try to hopefully shine some light on some places where we can talk about some of these things and maybe get onto the same page and not have these arguments. Because a lot of times these things happen in front of advisors the very first time.   Guys, not too long ago, I was just chatting with another advisor, who said he was sitting down with a married couple, they were talking, they were going over the stuff, and they were pleasantly surprised about some extra money that they were going to have. The husband says, "Great, we're going to buy an RV and travel the country," and the wife looked at him and said, "Since when? You've never ever brought this up before." So it was the first time she had ever heard it. So we want to make sure that that's not happening. We want to try to have these conversations, ideally with each other before we sit down with an advisor, but certainly that's going to happen as well, because you guys, as you know, often wind up having to be a little bit of marriage counselors sometimes when it comes to dealing with finance in front of folks. That's going to be the topic this week. We're going to get into it.   Nick, how you doing buddy?   Nick: Doing well. Doing well, thanks.   Marc: Yeah. You ever run into that situation where a couple said something in front of you and you could tell the other one was completely caught off guard?   Nick: Oh yeah. Yep. Yep. It's-   Marc: Par for the course?   Nick: Yeah, that's when the couple's therapy hat goes on.   Marc: That's right.   Nick: Probably a lot of advisors don't work in teams like John and I do, oftentimes, and I would say one of the things that it helps with the most is just being able to pick up on the social cues a little bit easier from both people, just because people, depending upon their personality, they may show you a lot with their expression.   Marc: Yeah. Little tandem action there. John, you're married. I'm married. Married couples argue, right? And money's usually the big deal.   John: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Speak for yourself, Mark. [inaudible 00:02:15] aware of it. It's all roses over here.   Marc: Your wife's listening, that's right. Make sure you don't say anything, yeah. But it does happen, right? And money's the number one argument point. So, let's talk about these five that we've identified here that people tend to run into in y'all's industry.   Risk tolerance, if I start that first one, risk tolerance in investments. This is pretty simple. If you're talking about two people, there's a good chance one feels one way about something and the other one feels the other way, especially when it comes to being married couples. So one person may be more aggressive with the portfolio and one's not, right? That simple.   John: Yeah. This does happen quite a bit because everyone has different risk tolerances, personalities, and how they react to the market. What we typically do in this situation is each person will fill out their own risk tolerance questionnaire, and that gives us understanding of how to invest each portfolio. And if it's a joint account, we usually have a discussion of, "Hey, how does this fit in the overall plan and the strategy?" So, again, hate to sound like a broken record, but we really try to have the plan dictate how much risk we should be taking, and then obviously the risk tolerance comes into play. But what we do in this situation is we take account both risks' levels, and then we'll try to incorporate that into the plan and make sure that it's in line with what we're showing for numbers.   Marc: Yeah. This is pretty basic one here, but we want to make sure that both parties are feeling comfortable with the risk that they're taking. It's just that simple. So to not have the argument, you don't want to have the portfolio 90% in the market, for example, just as throwing numbers out there, if the other person's tolerance is only going to be comfortable with half of that or less than that. So you want to have those conversations. It's also good to work with an advisor who can help you go through. And this is why another piece of the importance of both parties being involved with the financial planning process, so that they both are getting their needs met, as well as understanding what's happening and knowing what their plan is. So that's the first one.   Nick, let's talk about the second one, retirement age. My wife and I are five years apart, and she jokes all the time, and I don't think she's joking, but all the time she's like, "You're going to retire five years before me and I don't think I like that," because she just doesn't want to see me goofing off and having fun while she's going to work. Understandable, but something you got to talk about.   Nick: Yeah. It's definitely something that comes up quite a bit. It's interesting, honestly, it varies quite a bit from couple to couple. I've seen it go from anything from one person really enjoys their job more than another and they plan to work longer and they're comfortable and happy with that. In the last few years, we've had people shift to working from home and that has kept them in the job longer. They don't have to do the commute anymore. We've even had clients move maybe a little further out into the burbs because of it and start their adjustment to retirement by being in a quieter area, that sort of thing.   Also, in a funny way, sometimes couples are like, "We need to ease into this whole spending all this extra time together sort of thing. So us doing it at the same time may not be best for us as well." Then purely from a financial standpoint, there could be a significant age gap or maybe at least three to five years where the cost of health insurance, those sorts of things for the younger one, could make a significantly negative impact on the overall plan if they were to retire early. And so they just do it. They continue to work just for that reason alone.   Marc: Yeah. So you've got to have those conversations to sort that out a little bit so that you don't have that argument or that fight over what's going on, things of that nature. Again, this could be an easy one, but it also may not be depending on the age disparity, or even just from the financial standpoint of figuring out the ideal way to do this.   John, let's go to number three for you here on legacy for the family, for heirs or whatever the case is. I joke with my daughter all the time, we only have the one, but I joke with her, I'm like, "I'm not leaving you anything but a credit card statement." So she's expecting to get nadda. She knows that's not true, but for folks who have multiple kids like yourself, it could be simple, where one party wants to leave them a whole bunch and the other party doesn't, right? "We worked hard for this. We want to enjoy our retirement with the money that we put together. The kids are doing fine, so I don't want to leave as much." And that's certainly the source of tension between a married couple, if one's wanting to give a lot and one's wanting to give a little.   John: Yeah, this is probably, I would say, my planning career here, the biggest tension one I've seen actually, because if you're setting aside money to leave for a legacy and you're not spending it, that can make a big impact to what you do in retirement. So, again, the planning does help this out where you start to kind of see it. But this is definitely one where I would say it's a conversation to have in making sure that everyone is on the same page as far as what is the goal for leaving a legacy to kids or grandkids?   Marc: Yeah. And the grandkids can certainly be another whole equation in that too. Although the funny thing is, is couples tend to get on the same page about the grandkids. It's like, "The heck with the kids, just give it all to the grandkids." But, again, you've got to really talk about how you're going to separate that out.   Nick, do you see that as the biggest one as well? As John's mentioned, that's the thing he's seen the most in his career. Do you see that quite often as well?   Nick: Yeah, I would agree with him on that. That's definitely the case for me as well.   Marc: Yeah. It's, again, "Let's leave them as much as we can. No, they're doing just fine. We've given them everything throughout their life. I'm not leaving them that much." That's what my wife and I joke about with our kid. We're like, "I'm not leaving her nothing. We've given her tons of stuff. She's doing well on her own. She doesn't need any of the stuff that we have. We're going to enjoy our retirement ourself." So, we don't have big fights about it, but you could.   John: Mark, actually, one thing that I've seen at work is a kind of in-between, if this debt does become a sticky point, is I've seen some clients that instead of leaving money, it's, "Hey, let's do some things that we enjoy with the family." So instead of just saying, "Hey, we're going to leave you this nest egg," maybe it's, "We go on a vacation and we pay for everybody to come, so we create memories versus just passing away and just leaving them a chunk of money." So that's kind of an in-between, where it's, "Hey, I want to enjoy my retirement. We'll leave it for the kids. Let's do both."   Marc: Gotcha. That's a great point. Yeah, for sure. So maybe trying to enjoy that while everybody's around is a good way of looking at that.   Let's do number four here, housing and retirement, probably the second biggest one, more than likely. "Do we downsize, do we not? Well, we raised the kids here. I want to stay here and raise the grandkids here," kind of thing. Like, "Have the grandkids come here for those great memories, but financially it makes more sense to downsize," or whatever. So there's a whole plethora of arguments that can pop up around the housing issue, Nick.   Nick: Yeah, the housing issue, from almost like a hyperlocal standpoint here, has really become quite interesting, and, to a certain extent, in other areas as well. In our area here we've had really home values post-COVID double, and then interest rates go up. So there's this stuck factor, where in theory somebody may look to downsize their home, but for what they would get for the money, the change in taxes, if there was financing involved, it's one thing if they'd be able to pay cash, but if there'd be financing involved, a lot of times that cuts into any sort of gain that they would get. So unless they're shifting out to an area that's substantially less expensive or that sort of thing, people are a little bit more stuck than they had been previously, which we see that from the standpoint and the perspective of low inventory and that sort of thing.   So we're in an interesting cycle, and it's going to be pretty interesting to see how that ages in the next few years, because we've already had some clients that had looked into downsizing but wanted to stay local, and with the pricing where it's at, it just didn't end up making financial sense. The downside of that is that there's more maintenance and the house is harder to keep up. So instead, they're spending money on maybe some services related to the home that they hadn't before. It's pretty interesting.   Some clients that have relocated from other areas of the country where the housing markets are higher, they've been able to have that be a downsize that's worked out well for them. But that gap used to be much more substantial. What they would sell a house for in maybe the Eastern Seaboard versus what they could buy something for here now, the gap is much smaller than it used to be. Although for some areas it's still a better value, it's changed.   Marc: Yeah, it's easy enough to get into these arguments about different things, and certainly anything that's emotionally attached, like leaving money to the kids or raising the grandkid... I keep saying raising, but spending time with the grandkids in the same home where you raised your children can certainly carry a lot of emotional weight to that. But if the finance or the math bears out in a different direction and one party's leaning towards math and finance and the other one's leaning toward emotion, can certainly lead to arguments. And also, not having the conversations until you sit down with the advisor, probably not the best way to go about that either. "We're going to sell the house." "No, we're not. We're going to stay in the house," and you guys are left sitting there going, "Oh boy, this is going to be fun." So definitely something you want to have a conversation about.   Then the last one guys, is also a pretty big one as well, which is just retirement lifestyle in general. Again, what do you want to do? I used my wife and I as an example a minute ago, I'm going to retire before she does, and she travels a lot for work. Well, she doesn't want to travel that much in retirement. She wants to be at home and enjoy her garden and so on and so forth. And I'm like, well, I'm always working from home, especially while she's traveling now, so I want to get out and do things once we retire. So we're in two different spaces. We've got to find a way to make that work as we get there. And many couples face that same kind of analogy.   John: Yeah, this happens quite a bit in understanding and getting that aligned. I think with all these topics, I'll say that just sitting down and starting a financial plan will answer a lot of these questions and making it come to light. And once you see the plan, you'll really start to determine, "Hey, should we downsize? What can we leave to the kids?" Retirement age, et cetera. And then also, "What are the things we can do in retirement?" It really opens up the conversation.   Just kind of give you scenarios here. I just had a client that, she, herself, her goal was to hike the Appalachian Trail. She just did about half of it, and the husband didn't want to do that. She did it, and then he would actually meet her at certain spots in the trail and they would hang out and then he'd fly back home. But those are things that she wanted to do, and she's not the only one. I have some other people like that as well. If it's that drastically of a difference, some people might do things solo off their bucket list. But the majority of the time, I'll say, maybe we've been fortunate that we've worked with people that will actually compromise and work with each other, even if they have different bucket lists in retirement.   Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Nick, you want to chime in on this one?   Nick: Yeah, it's really an interesting dynamic. I see it now more with my parents who both retired during COVID. The caveat with them is that my grandmother lives with them so that puts some restrictions on what they can do. We have a lot of clients who have that same sort of situation, which is also another reason for people to be strategic about the things that they want to do, and be able to plan around that sort of thing.   As an example, for my parents, I have an uncle that's going to fly down and stay with my grandmother for a week, and they're going to go travel a little bit, go out west for a wedding, and be able to enjoy that time. So, people that tend to be homebodies too, I think I've seen maybe struggle a little bit more than others. I would just say that any sort of engagement, hobbies, things to get you out of the house, all those sorts of things, we've seen have a very positive impact on people's energy levels and how much they're able to actually enjoy retirement.   Marc: Yeah. Well, and again, these are five big places where we can certainly argue about money when it comes to our finances, sources of tension. Whether it's arguing over how aggressive or not we are with our portfolio, whether it's what kind of age we want to retire at, the legacy to leave behind, where we're going to live, or just what overall retirement's going to look like, why have this be a source of tension when we can have a conversation with each other? Hopefully we've done this already, but again, many times couples, they know they're going to fight, so they try to avoid, or maybe they're not as truthful, guys, as they might be with their partner when it's just them. But sitting down in front of advisors like yourselves, now they're a little bit more comfortable because they feel like they've got this mediator who doesn't have a vested interest in the fight. They're just there to help provide the financial information. Is that fair?   John: Yes.   Nick: Yeah, I would say so.   John: Yeah, I would definitely agree with that.   Marc: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel better about doing that in front of an advisor, but again, try not to catch your partner off guard by never having this conversation with them and just springing something on them. Talk about it, and work your way through it, and hopefully maybe use this podcast as a catalyst if you need that, if you're having trouble with your spouse, and just say, "Hey, listen to this." Maybe this will get you guys talking or whatever. And then sit down with a qualified pro like John and Nick to go through the process and see what it is that you need to do to tackle these items and get onto the same page. So reach out to them, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's where you can find them online. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, pfgprivatewealth.com.   You can find Retirement Planning Redefined on Apple, Google, or Spotify. Whatever podcasting platform app you like to use, just type that into search box, or again, stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. Guys, thanks for hanging out and breaking this down a little bit for us this week. I always appreciate your time. For John and Nick, I'm your host, Mark, we'll see you next time here on the show.

Do you need help with technical problems during Zoom calls? In this episode, we'll cover common tech problems in Zoom meetings and how to handle them using helpful phrases. And you'll practice your speaking with a fun mini-story. Get the transcript on my website: Speakenglishpodcast.com/podcast/ Zoom has become a crucial tool for remote work and communication. But, as you may have experienced, technical problems can pop up during a Zoom call. As an English learner, it's important to feel comfortable using the app and handling any problems that may come up. Don't worry if you're not a tech expert. Learning the basics of Zoom will help you communicate better with your coworkers and clients. It's a good idea to practice using Zoom's simple features, like sharing your screen, using the chat, and muting your microphone. These features can make your Zoom meetings run more smoothly. To help you tackle these issues, I've prepared an example conversation on Zoom addressing common technical problems. Participants: John from the United States; Maria from Brazil, and Yuna from South Korea John: Hello, everyone. Can you hear me clearly? Maria: Yes, I can hear you, John.  Yuna: Sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you. I may have a problem with the connection. John: No problem, Yuna. Can you check your internet connection or try refreshing your browser? Yuna: Sorry to interrupt, but my screen is blank. Is anyone else having this issue? Maria: No, my screen is working fine. John: Yuna, can you try exiting and then rejoining the meeting? Yuna: Okay, let me try that. Maria: John, I think you're frozen. I mean, your screen is frozen. Can you hear me?  John: Oh, sorry about that, Maria. I need to figure out what's going on. Let me turn off my camera and then turn it back on. Maria: I'm also having some issues. The image and sound are out of sync on my end. Yuna: I agree, Maria; I noticed the same thing. John: Hmm, that's strange. Let me check my internet connection to see if that's the issue.  Maria: You're breaking up a little bit, Yuna. Can you repeat what you just said? Yuna: Sorry about that. I said we needed to discuss the marketing strategy for the new product launch. Maria: There's an echo on the line. Can someone please mute themselves if they're not speaking? John: That's a good point, Maria. I am having trouble hearing you, Yuna. I think you're on mute.  Yuna: Oh, sorry about that. Can you hear me now? John: Yes, we can hear you now, Yuna. Let's continue with the meeting.   Get the transcript on my website: Speakenglishpodcast.com/podcast/

شكرا لمتابعتكم وتشجيعكم الرجاء العودة للدروس من البداية للدراسة بالتدرج الدروس تدريب على المفردات وتركيب الجمل الدرس هنا متابعة محادثة : John: Hi, I want to travel to Paris. Can you help me? Sarah: Of course! Do you know when you want to go? John: Yes, I want to go next month. Sarah: Alright, let me check the flights for you.  جون: مرحبا، أريد السفر إلى باريس. هل يمكنك مساعدتي؟ سارة: بالتأكيد! هل تعرف متى تريد الذهاب؟ جون: نعم، أريد الذهاب الشهر القادم. سارة: حسناً، دعني أتحقق من الرحلات لك. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thana-j2/support

جون: مرحبا، أريد السفر إلى باريس. هل يمكنك مساعدتي؟ سارة: بالتأكيد! هل تعرف متى تريد الذهاب؟ جون: نعم، أريد الذهاب الشهر القادم. John: Hi, I want to travel to Paris. Can you help me? Sarah: Of course! Do you know when you want to go? John: Yes, I want to go next month. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thana-j2/support

INTRODUCTION: I hold a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Exposition, with an interdisciplinary in Literature, from Moody Bible Institute. I was one of two recipients of the MBI Homiletical Jury Award for outstanding preaching in 2016. I have experience as a youth pastor, pastoral intern, academic journal editor, and guest speaker. I used to be a part of the largest cult in the United States. In 2019, I published my first book, The Cult of Christianity, as a first step in addressing the subtle issues of this complex system. In 2021, I continued my work with this podcast!   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      How Christianity Is A Cult·      A Look Into TCOC Book's Cover Art·      How The Church Exploits Vulnerabilities ·      Civil Rights Movement Implications·      Explained: Control – Contain – Convert·      Refusing Cake To The Gays! – But Why Though?·      The “Karen-ness” Of Christians ·      Fake Oppression·      Getting Over Self-Condemnation For Falling For The Church·      The Honor In Self-Deprecation  CONNECT WITH JOHN: Website, Social Media & Books: https://linktr.ee/thecultofchristianity  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: John Verner [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: John m is back with us again to go harder into his very provocative book, the Cult of Christianity. Join us today as we discuss the ways in which the church mind fucks us, violates us, and exploits people's vulnerabilities. Also, I hope that through this episode you begin to find a sense of healing in knowing that if you or your loved one has been devastated by the.[00:01:00]You are not alone, honey. We are in this together. John and I are with you,and we will walk with you every step of the way.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your hostess with the mostest, Devon Huber. And I have with me the lovely, the handsome, the talented, the smart, intelligent, brave, bold, and in touch with his emotions. John er, he is the John: host, John De'Vannon: er mm-hmm. , John er. He is the host of The Cult of Christianity podcast.And the author of the book titled the same. He was on my show before to talk about, well, the book, but then we got so deep into his history in the podcast. We didn't get a chance to talk about the [00:02:00] book, so I had to have the motherfucker back on so we can dive into this shit. How the fuck is you? John: I is fine.20, 20, 23 feels like a little bit of a reset. And so I'm, I'm kind of living in that head space of like, all right, what's next? Since we last spoke, I went, I can't, I don't think I had started back working on my master's in journalism. And so that's been taking up a lot of time. I'm, I'm, it's all online, but I'm studying at N Y U mm-hmm.And that's been awesome. I've been, been doing some religious reporting stuff, which is, is fun. I'm excited to kinda move towards that, doing religious reporting. It's pretty fun. De'Vannon: Well, congratulations. Congratulations. And all of it was a good thing. . So you're religious reporting like say for, for like, for like the university's press John: or like where Yeah.For right [00:03:00] now. Yeah. And then yeah, I'm already, I'm hopefully gonna sell my first, I'm actually right after we record this, I'm gonna have a meeting to hopefully sell my first story of a church investigation I did. Cuz that's what I wanna do. I want to, not just Christian churches, but I want to go into churches and colts and investigate them and figure out what's really going on De'Vannon: as someone should.Have you heard of the Trinity Foundation in Texas? John: Yeah. You mentioned that last time we talked. I didn't, I didn't look too far into them, but I know there's, there's several. This is a relatively new thing that's popping up that's actually really, really important work. De'Vannon: So what you're telling me is there's organizations who investigate churches more than that one.This is becoming like a trend. Well, John: religious reporting has been around for, for decades, but it's been done in a very kind of general way. And I think there's being a small push to be like, let's actually look at individual, like if someone is whistle blowing on their [00:04:00] church or is like giving us leads about a specific church, that it should be fair game and we should investigate them like we would any other business.De'Vannon: Right. Well, I wish you success with that as you get going and keep going, be sure to let me know if there's anything that I can do for you because, you know, I don't give a fuck about churches, but I give all the fucks. I give all the fucks about Christ as I always say. Mm-hmm. , but the church. Yay Jesus. And that's the way that, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.Now, before we get too much into this, I want you to tell me about that coffee mug in your hand. Can you hold it up the camera so that we can see Yeah. What it says. Apostate coffee roasters. You mind giving us a little bit of history on what the fuck apostate means and where you got that from? Yeah.John: Apostates just a derogatory term that different cults and religions have thrown at people who, typically it's someone who, like me, who used to be a part of the faith and is no longer [00:05:00] but it's, it's more broadly a pro. A similar word would be something like heretic. But the, yeah, so prostate coffee roasters, they're this coffee company that is run by ex Mormons and Mormons are not allowed to drink coffee.So it's a very like, empowering thing for them to roast their own coffee and make it so they're awesome. Love 'em to death. They're great. Make good coffee. So their De'Vannon: whole show is one big clap back. Not the whole show. Their whole fucking concept is one big clap back. Mm-hmm. . So do you have any idea why Mormons think coffee is Satan?Why do they think coffee is of the devil? John: Yeah. I don't know personally too much. You know, I didn't grow up Mormon or anything. I do know that just in my studies of Colts , what they do is one move to do is to control what people eat and drink. You know, in Southern Baptist culture that looks like alcohol [00:06:00] you know, in, in certain pockets of Christianity, historically there was only certain kinds of bread you could use for communion.Anytime you're trying to regulate what people are eat, eating, you're regulating what they're putting into their body. That's just a, that's just a very like kind of you've mentioned stuff like hypnosis. It's, it's a very like, Kind of mind numbing way to control a person is to control what they eat and drink.The other big one I talk about a lot is controlling what you wear. That's like a, that's a big thing that pops up in different cults. You'll see usually a distinction between how clergy dress and the followers and how people dress on Sunday versus the rest of the days is common in Christian circles.So basically if you can control what someone expresses and you can control what someone intakes, it's very easy to control their mind cuz you're already controlling their body. . [00:07:00] Mm. So that would be my, my, my spin on it. I don't know the theo, I don't know what theological reason they made up for coffee.Like I, I'm sure there's some, I'm sure somebody said it was you know, too addicting at some point is probably the modern version, I would assume. De'Vannon: Well, if that was the case, at least those bastards were even across the board, you know, unlike say the Pentecostals who were like, that was show not drinketh of the vine, but they're gross in a fucking gallon of coffee in the back every Sunday and like that.But that's all good, right? . John: Yeah. Well that's also, yeah, especially, especially if they go the grape juice route too, because even grape juice is from a vine. So that's kind of. , De'Vannon: it's all silly. The marijuana, the L s D mm-hmm , the shrooms, the coffee beans, the grapes, and any of their derivatives is something that is of the Lord.And it is not for humans to tell us what the fuck. We can't do really with [00:08:00] anything, but it's certainly not anything that grew up out the fucking dirt. Hmm. So, speaking of artistic expressions, cuz you're also fucking artistic. I mentioned the, the cover for your podcast the last time, but I wanted to talk about that again because I feel like it's just so enigmatic and so polarized and you have this big, huge fucker standing on like a pedestal and his little minions bowing before them for him sucking his dick or whatever the case may be, paying HOK in some way.And the interesting thing is you can't tell whether or not that's supposed to be a preacher, a rabbi, a pope, a pastor that's supposed to be God, you know, or Jesus or some like sort of deity. , and I know you said it before, but I'd like you to just tell us again why you went with this cover art, because I think it's so true.John: Well, this is a, every so humans like categories we like [00:09:00] to find a group. We like to label things as good and bad. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. That's just kind of how our brains work. And the problem is we've got kind of this weird concept of good guys and bad guys, and the church is pretending to be the good guys while they're being the bad guys.But you end up having to label specific things that are wrong because there's so many goodhearted people in. . And so a lot of times when I critique Christianity, people wanna spend the conversation of, well, you're not critiquing Christianity. You're critiquing this version of Christianity, which isn't necessarily wrong, I am way more focused on White American evangelicalism than the rest of it.But White American evangelicalism was not a term when there were slavery in the us. There it existed, but we hadn't [00:10:00] labeled it that yet. The Crusades, the was not only white people, was not American people and was certainly not evangelicals, but the Crusades were bad . And it stemmed from their beliefs their Christian beliefs.So I can't say everything all at once. , but what I hope the art communicates is the, the problem that I've spotted, the category that I think everything else falls from is the idea of leaders and followers of other people submitting to someone else. I don't really, I, I think it's worth bringing up white supremacy.I think it's worth bringing up patriarchy. I think all those things are very much worth talking about, but I don't think it's the only thing going on. I think we have a we're, we're sometimes scared, and I think we've been made to be scared of pointing out that what's really going on in churches is that cult structure of one man with [00:11:00] other people having the knee bow to him either literally or metaphorically.So again, the art is, is purposely vague because I think unless there's some fundamental changes 40 years from now when evangelicalism won't exist, it will be gone. We won't be calling anyone an evangelical anymore. The same problems, the same structure, the same issues will still be present unless there's foundational changes.Chow, I'm De'Vannon: getting Game of Thrones flashbacks. Okay. Like, how many season is it gonna take to get you to bend the knee? John Snow, get on down there. Boy. and motherfucking service. Yo, queen God damnit. And so . John: Yeah. Well seasons is an interesting way of thinking about it. Both television and, and you know, weather or whatever.But it's true. Like there's seasons of Christianity that that kind of come and go. But what seems to remain is that structure of one person being in charge of others or [00:12:00] multiple people being in charge of multiple others. But there's always that hierarchy. So again, I, I have tried to update the art before, but I think it, I think it's just the, it, it's, it's about what I'm talking about most specifically.You know, that my art. on that is in line with the problem I'm trying to point to. There's many other people who are doing great work to dismantle white Evangelicalism and I support all those people. But to me, that's not my niche. That's not what I'm trying to talk about. Hmm. Then De'Vannon: tell us like it, you know, and make it official here.What, what are you trying to talk about? What is your mission in this world? Hmm. John: I'm not just against Christianity, I'm against cults. I just know how much of a cult Christianity is. Hmm. And the reason I'm against cults is it's an erase. It erases people's identity. It makes their vulnerabilities their whole personhood.It [00:13:00] it, it limits them to a very narrow way of. , and I think there's cult speak outside of, you know, there's a lot of cult speak in the business world. There's a lot of cult speaking, just American culture when it comes to politics. So I'm against all of it across the board, the one I'm just super familiar with, and can get very detailed and very like you know, just kind of a prime example.And unfortunately a very big example in the US is Christianity. And one of the ways, it's the biggest example is it's absurd that the largest cult is the most protected class of people in the country. Like, that's concerning to me. We have an organiza a loosely organized group of people that are protected by constitutional rights and legal rights more than anyone.and they're not oppressed, but they're that protected and that's a very dangerous, as we've seen, very dangerous combination. So they're worth talking about the most, and it's the one I can [00:14:00] talk about the most, but I'm against cults across the board. I'm not just bitter about my church hurt, I'm not just upset because of this, that, and the other.This is a real problem that really needs to be talked about in real ways and real solutions need to happen. De'Vannon: That's interesting you say like the, these ultimate people's vulnerabilities, their whole personality. I've never heard it stated like that before. So from from the people who've reached out to you in response to your book or your show or the work that you're doing, do you have any sort of, I don't know if we would call it a testimony, any kind of bullshit somebody shared with you that a, a church or a cult put them through that was particularly scary or moving to you that you can recall?John: Yes. To me. So I, I have two thi things that I think of with that question. One is, nothing surprises [00:15:00] me anymore. Nothing . It, it can still hurt. It can still shock me. It never surprises me. It only makes me feel like, yeah, that makes sense. And frankly, I only feel like I was five clicks away from being the victim or perpetrator of whatever bad thing happened, because that's what the system breeds.It, it breeds perpetrators and victims . I mean, that's just what it does. There's, there's many horrifying stories. Sometimes I avoid telling them because, When you tell like a really I guess salacious, for lack of a better word story, like someone who, like, you know, I have an episode of my podcast where I interview a guy who was kidnapped by Christians, right?About as extreme as it can get. What people do is go, well, those Christians were crazy. Those were the crazy ones. [00:16:00] Or like, if someone talks about, you know, this is unfortunately becoming, we're all becoming aware how common this is. When someone was sexually harassed or abused by someone in the church they, they go, well, that, that guy needs to leave.Like he's, you know, he's bad. And, and the church would, that church was bad, but you should come to my church. You should do this, you should do that. It, it just gets a little exhausting for me to kind of engage and. Let me tell you this horrible story because frankly, the horrible story doesn't change anyone's mind because the cult won't let it change your mind because your empathy has been pressure washed out of you.You, you don't, you don't ha the story doesn't tug at you because the thing that tugs at you more is you've been told how ashamed you are and how shameful your existence is. And the only hope for reming that shame is believing in Jesus Christ. And so that belief that's so firmly held is actually gonna [00:17:00] trump your ability to be empathetic towards someone's story.So yeah, I could sit here and I could, off the top of my head at least tell you three stories that would make a lot of people who are unfamiliar with churches that would make their jaw drop, but it wouldn't change anything. And it's very sad because we want to believe that people's horrifying stories change stuff.And I think it does and to, and I think it can. . But I think a lot of the times it actually ends up being counterproductive because the cults, the cult leaders are anticipating that they've already done a lot of work to build a firewall against that particular human thing of storytelling to promote change.You know, I no better example than like Martin Luther King Jr. Right. You know, told amazing stories, was a great orator. Not the per, not a perfect person, but someone who told a lot of great stories and who was, showed the impact. And we like to [00:18:00] pretend that that changed the church and up more positive direction.But did it, I mean, I, I mean, what, what tangible, measurable things can we point to that were changed within church culture? I'm not talking about American culture in general. There was great things that came outta the Civil Rights Movement. What did the church really change? Not a lot. It just changed their verbiage, which they always changed their verbiage.But, but systemically what really changed. So if you want horrible stories, I can give them, but that's why I'm hesitant to a lot of the time is cuz I'm not sure it's actually that helpful. De'Vannon: What you said is, look, you said what you said . Okay. Did I accept that when I think of Martin Luther King or any of the civil rights, I never, ever think about the church, you know, except for the fact that the church stood silently by why people were murdered in the streets and stuff like that, you know?You know. [00:19:00] How's it say that? Well, John: and, and I mean, I mean, even Evangelicals hated Martin Luther King Jr. They called him a thug. They. There, there's a letter from the guy who wrote the Left Behind books. There's a letter from him to Wheaton College because they had a memorial service after King was shot.And he said, how could you celebrate the life of this man? They didn't just passively like, not like m l K, they hated him. Jerry Falwell hated Martin Luther King Jr. Because he was for segregation. So like, and again, like I, I, you know, I know this is an intense topic to go to right off the bat, , but, but I just think, I think we, I think sometimes those of us who have left the church think if we just tell enough stories of how bad we've been hurt, Christians will change.They don't give a shit. They don't, and it's, and some of it's not even their fault. A lot of the followers have been brainwashed to not give a shit. And [00:20:00] so the, the best hope is we can, with our stories, what we can do is help people who have already left know that they're not alone. Which is huge and that's really important work and people who are looking for a way out might find the way out.But if you're talking about systemically changing what cult leaders are gonna do it, it ain't gonna do shit. De'Vannon: Right. I concur. So, you know, that's why like in my ministry, man, I am preaching not to church people, but the people who have already been hurt or people who, who know people and love people who have been hurt because people don't go to church for the betterment of humanity.People go to church for entirely selfish reasons, to keep themselves outta hell, to work out their own self, soul, salvation, whatever it is. They're going there to get their blessing, their miracle. They're come up, they're not going there cuz they give a fuck about you. And then so yeah, I concur. There is no talking to them hardheaded people.Like if they're setting up there every god damn Sunday or whatever, they're not gonna be able to hear us [00:21:00] because they're constantly being re indoctrinated and re hypnotized by the big man up on stage or we god damn week. or the woman or the who of the fuck ever twirling about. So yeah, they're a lost cause shot of a miracle.John: Yeah. I, or also just explaining systemically what happens, you know, if you, if you're able to generalize it more than just a specific person, like one person's story and you can show them the patterns. You know, I used to be a cult leader, you know, I studied to be a pastor. I got out, I was hardheaded then.But the reason I got out was not because I heard a story that was finally, you know, enough, it was cuz I kept seeing the same thing over and over again. And I was like, this is just how a cult operates. And I was in denial about it. So I think cult leaders, the way you do reach them is say, don't you know what you're doing?Like, you know? Right. And if you actually focus the conversation on that and not just the extreme cases of bad things that happen, but actually point [00:22:00] to like the pattern. Like, okay, so do you have control over your congregation? . Like, that's a great question to ask a pastor because they'll, they'll struggle.They cannot give a yes or no que answer to it. But just be like, do you have control over your congregation? And you'll it then watch how they react. Cuz you'll see some interesting things. . You De'Vannon: can also ask 'em to apologize for something and get that same reaction cuz those bastards won't say they're sorry.And so, so now that you're speaking about control, I wanted to talk about, so y'all, his book, the called of Christianity is broken down into three succulent sections. The first one is called control. The section one is the sexual, the sec, second one is called Contained. Clearly I need to gimme some dick.Where the fuck did that come from? And the third one is called Convert. And you'll always, whenever you hear John's talk, he'll always say, control, contain, convert, control, contain, convert. And so, and that's how his book is broken down. And if I may, I'm gonna [00:23:00] read a little sniff it. That kind of echoes what you were just saying.And Howard, I had already taken down in my notes. Now, this is John speaking y'all, and he's saying, I don't recant anything in this letter. I said, holding back tears. I was feeling tired, dressed down, confused and hurt, yet unwilling to go again. So what I knew to be true, the truth was I had spent three hours in a boardroom that reminded me of the one I had seen in The Apprentice.I want you to tell us what the hell was going on here and why were you crying. . John: So yeah, so this is the first chapter of the book, and this is kind of, I, I, you know, my, my rose bud, my whatever, my my or villain or hero origin story, depending on how you look at it. So I was 16 years old going to a pretty stuffy church Presbyterian church, p c a for whoever that means [00:24:00]something to suit and tie church.And I was, I was angsty, you know, at the same time I was also in a punk band. I had grown out my hair. I was still very Christian, like, very conservative Christian, in fact. But I, you know, was around people who, you know, I, I, I was ex, I was becoming an adult, right? Like in as much as a teenager does.And the church was just ridiculous. And so, like, I, I had this whole rigamarole of, of beef with the, the leadership of the church. So I sent a letter. to email. I emailed the pastor and said, here are my problems with this church. And I had broken it into four sections of just like, they don't respect the youth of this church.They have a bad view of music. That was important to me cuz they were like, they had this whole, like, contemporary music is evil. They were like one of those. And [00:25:00] then they there were a couple other things. Oh, they, the way they hated Catholics actually really bothered me. The way they talked about Catholics was very not okay in my opinion.And then basically I'd told them I would never invite a friend to church here. Like I would never, like, do y'all want to actually save people? Because I would never invite. Yeah. So I wrote this whole long letter, sent it to the pastor. He forwarded it to the elders. I told my dad afterwards about it and my dad and dad was like, can I read it?And I was like, sure. I signed it to him. He is like, all right, proud of you. This is good stuff. . And so I told my parents that I wanted to face the elders alone. So we would go to their session room, which was a long wooden table, had like chairs on all around it. And then on the wall it had pictures of Martin Luther.It had Swingley and it had John Calvin. And then it had like these bookshelves that [00:26:00] were just like full of like reformation propaganda. And so it's me and the three elders I knew the most. And then for, for three hours they talked to me about how my long hair was sinful, which was the first time like, I thought, only crazy churches believe that, right?And they were like, no, you're trying to look like the world with your hair. And I was like, what? And then they talked about my best friend who dressed in all black, like how, you know, they're dressing in all black. Same friend was in the band with me and was just like, said, they look like the world.Talk to me about how I was the one who was disrespecting them. They weren't disrespectful of you, of youth. I was disrespectful to them and that yeah, that basically I, and, and I didn't confront them correctly. I shouldn't have written a letter. When you have a problem with someone, you go and confront them, and then if they don't listen, you bring another, you [00:27:00] know, the whole Matthew 18 dumb ass shit.And so I just, I, I was a wreck and so I cried. Eventually my dad came in, and that's the cool part of the story. My dad comes in and he goes, what happened? And, well, no, my dad comes in and actually the first things outta his mouth was who was yelling at my son. And it was a, it was a good moment for me and my dad.Our, our relationship only got stronger after that moment. then they started talking about the hair and stuff. Then my dad goes, look behind you. And there's like, you know, his wingy with his long beard and stuff, and he is like, and my dad goes, the person who sh what? I can't even remember the terminology anymore.The person who led me to the Lord, that's how they talk. The person who led me to the Lord had long hair. Like, what are you talking about? You know? and so it kind of got tense and then yeah, at the end I say I don't recant, which was a paraphrase of what [00:28:00] Martin Luther said when he was brought before, Catholics and, and excommunicated.cuz I thought that would be an extra sting of, since they idolize this man so much. that was the first time I switched from being a blind follower. I stayed a Christian for many years after that, but I stopped blindly following what church leaders say that day. De'Vannon: I like that whole recant thing.Like I was saying earlier that you said what? You said , I'm might, I might hit a bitch with that one day I recant, not it. John: Lost the fuck out. Yeah. It, it's a little dramatic. Well, because they, well, one of the elders said like, do you, do you have like, I want to give you the last word. Is there anything you wanna say?Because I could tell by the look on their face, they felt like they did something good. They felt like they did a good job of putting me back on the right path. [00:29:00] And I was like, guys, y'all just proved everything I said. Like, I, why would I recant anything? and they were, they were mad frankly. They were mad.De'Vannon: They always are. They, they were that way with Lakewood, you know, you know, when they, when the ki when the, when the kids choir director and the adult choir director were firing me from all aspects of volunteering for not being straight. Despite the, despite, aside from the fact they would call me in the office and question who I'm dating and stuff like that, trying to get all into who I'm fucking and whatnot.Well, I mean, we can't even fuck even doing all that. Just, you know, or hold hands or shit, I guess, whatever their rules were, you know? Mm-hmm. , when they offered me their conversion therapy package in order to stay and to be demoted, quote unquote, to an usher from being on, you know, camera and television and stuff in the more public ministries, and I got up to walk the fuck out, they were so confused, you know, that I didn't accept their conversion [00:30:00] therapy package.And they, when they were talking to me, they felt like they, they, they, they felt like I had hurt them and offended them. You know? Like, how could you, how could you hang out with gay people when you're not here, ? John: Yeah. I mean, when you, when you think, when you, you, when you think you're divinely appointed by God people aren't supposed to argue with you.And if they do, they're spo. If someone argues with you, they're arguing with the Lord. I mean, there's some who would never say, no, no, no, no, no. Like it's, it's, I don't, I don't have that kind of authority, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, but in practice, like, I mean, this is what we keep agreeing to by showing up to church is that you're divinely appointed by God to do whatever the hell you wanna do, frankly And so, I, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, but it's so sad, right? It's so sad that it happens to not only, you know, [00:31:00] adults or like people who've put a lot of work into the church. it happens to very vulnerable people. It happens like in my case, to a child. I mean, I was 16 years old and I had grown ass men ripping me a new one because I just challenged their bad behavior.I mean, this is what we were working with. Imagine if I was like a woman when I did that, or like, You know, or, or like, you know, not, not white, you know? yeah, like, I, I, I mean, it's just horrifying, right? It's, it's all about once you deviate from, the, the program, I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna experience some, some shaming at minimum.De'Vannon: Hmm. Some shaming in some shade. Yeah. Especially white men, they don't like to be told what to do and, and that they're wrong. They're accustomed to stepping on all the little brown people and stuff like that. But for the record, my brother, I think you got plenty of soul. You are always invited for the motherfucking cookout.any damn [00:32:00] day about to be crawfish season down here. Come stay with me. I got room in my house. I'll get you some soul food and fattening you up a little bit. , John: man, I miss soul food. You know, there's obviously a lot of great stuff here in Atlanta, but now I'm vegan, so like, so much of it is like off the table for me now.It's very sad. De'Vannon: So that means no crawfishes for you. Well, vegan is not. Yeah. There's no dairy in that, right? There's no dairy in, yeah, video1579991175: but John: it's a, it, it's an animal though. De'Vannon: You can't eat any animals either. John: Okay. I'm gonna have no animal, no dairy, some vegan De'Vannon: seafood shit for you. John: So some collards though. I can have some collards, which is good.You know, I De'Vannon: grow mustard greens. I got them in the backyard right now. Ooh. Okay. I cut you a pot. John: Let's goDe'Vannon: So the section called contain mm-hmm. march. Stuck out to me. In, in, in here. So I have long loathed Christian people for this fake oppression and things like that. Like what you mentioned earlier. We're gonna talk about [00:33:00] the myth of Chris and Daria. Mm-hmm. , after we talk about this whole people not wanting to make cake for the gaze.Bullshit. I like the way you said it. I'm gonna read a little ex sweeped as bugs bunnies, , sometimes racist ass would. Say he can't help how Disney dressed him. Sometimes he was in drag, sometimes he was talking to people in blackface. But there's a whole thing out there on YouTube about, you know, Disney and the different cartoons, racism.Go look it up cuz unfortunately Bugsy was in there too. So Romans 12 versus 20 through 21. This is from the book, says to the contrary, if your enemy is hangry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink For Baso doing, he will heap pointing cold on his head. So do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.John goes on to say, perceiving gay folks as enemies is [00:34:00] problematic in and of itself, but even if you do, I fail to see how refusing to give people some cake. Cake, cake, cake, cake scores you any brownie points for the God.John: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it is wild, right? Like that's, it's, it's, it's just, and it shows the contrary, like there's an evangelical message of we need to serve all people. And then there's another message that they're saying at the same time is like, but not if, I'm like, well, if there's a but not if, then the first thing doesn't make any sense.De'Vannon: And Jesus is saying, it is your most basic bitch Christian level. You gotta feed a bitch. You know, two people can be in a relationship and on the verge of divorce. I mean, if a pot of food is cooking, you, you can at least share that. I mean, yeah. Nevertheless, you've been commanded to do so. You're not supposed to leave people starving and without clothing.No matter how much you [00:35:00] disdain them, you're supposed to piss on them if they're on fire. It's stuff like that, no matter how much you don't want to mm-hmm. . So you conservative assholes out there when you don't wanna make me a cake because I walked in with eyeshadow on, just know. You're written of in the scriptures.You hateful ho. Yeah. Now then this myth of oppression, like you talked about earlier. Christians are a bunch of big fucking Karens running around something like. The God the world is against them. The moment they can't stop. I don't know, a trans athlete from participating in sports, then, oh my God, I'm being silenced.My rights are not being heard. I'm being so persecuted. Bitch, no one's coming after you. You just got told no for trying to come after somebody else. No one actually attacked you. . Mm-hmm. . I can't say anything more about this. So tell us who the hell, Chris. Chris and Aria . John: If, if memory serves me, I was telling you before we started recording, I, I wrote this [00:36:00]book a while ago, so I'm like, I don't actually remember all, everything, but the, that's the, the couple that supposedly got saved early on and, and really it was all about Chastity.Like they were like this couple that was, you know, like, oh, chastity is so great. and then because they're seeking to convert others. I think according to the story, it's Rome supposedly who throws a, i I think one gets fed to a lion, the other gets fed, burned at the stake, whatever. It's a pretty classic version of just early church persecution.There's a million different stories like this of just like different Christian heroes who were early Christians who, you know got converted and, and then they, you know like start, started bolstering the movement and Rome doesn't like it, so they killed them. 90% of those stories aren't true. They never happened.They were made up. It was just, it was just made [00:37:00] up. I mean, I really don't know what else to say about it. It's just, it's unverified. There were a few that happened and there was also some early Jewish persecution in that same time. That was absolutely happening. , but Jewish Christians, which was what they were at first did that kind of lumped their Jewish Christ Christendom beliefs with other sex of Judaism that were actually being persecuted.And so it just became this kind of whole glob of like of myth of saying that like, oh, if the people find out you're Christian, they'll wanna kill you for it. And that bread, like this whole martyrdom complex which is very similar obviously to a Messiah complex. And so yeah, it's just, it just, there's a lot of stories like that that, you know, you, you're free to fact check.Never happened. But they're told from the pulpit they're, you know, they're told the old, you'll hear a mirror million [00:38:00] different versions of basically like they were singing songs while they were being burned alive. They were reciting scripture while they were being burned alive. Didn't happen.It just wasn't very common. Occasionally there was some mob violence that was killing Christians, but it just wasn't a common thing. De'Vannon: I can't believe that the band was really playing as the Titanic ship went down either . But if that's what might not have, well, if that's what Rose wanna say, then we'll have to believe Rose or what the fuck ever.I want that diamond bitch, you know? . Okay, . So basically the Christian Church is a bunch of drama queens and stuff like that. And I, I, I don't know, you know what I want you to talk about, like, people who leave the [00:39:00] church and like blame themselves or haven't been duped by them because I went through that for like a really long time. , you know, it's like I was mad at myself, as they say, for buying this bullshit. True. I, looking back on it now, with a healthy mind, I was vulnerable.They took advantage of me, but I did not think that way for a many, many years. It's like, why was I so stupid? Why did I let them do that? You know, there's a grieving that happened in some, some self-loathing that came in there on me.John: Well, let me tell you a story. Yesterday I was driving to the grocery store and I saw someone on the side of the road that had a sign that said, Jesus saves. And I got outta my car and I went and talked to them. After about 30 minutes, I realized this was the most beautiful person I ever met. And guess what?The story I just told you is not. [00:40:00] So no . Not that I've just made that up. I didn't go to the grocery store yesterday. Oh. So the thing got me yo , I got, I got everybody. And that's why you shouldn't feel duped. We trust, that's what we do as humans. When someone's put, when something's put in a story form, we're compelled by what they're saying.That doesn't make anyone stupid. That makes us have empathy. That makes us like beautiful people. We don't need to blame ourselves. We need to blame people who take advantage of that. Now, I was able to just tell you I was lying and no harm is really done right. , we gotta now, but there might be a listener who goes, oh, I can't trust this guy.If he's able to lie that good, you know, fine. Don't. But the thing is, churches have built an entire system that took the storytelling, the beautiful storytelling of Judaism and just wrecked it for their own purposes. and added, took away, changed, edited [00:41:00] the story. You are not stupid for wanting to believe in a story that, that, that, that's just the thing you have to know.There's no, there's no stupidity. It's all on them . It's all on them to bear the responsibility of, of having power, of having and kind of a monopoly on redemption narratives. I mean, they've kind of created this universe literally where the, they, they have a redemptive narrative that is attributed to them.They should wield that power carefully, and they don't. So no. Anyone who gets caught up in believing it, don't blame yourself for that. That's, you're a human being. Don't blame yourself for very normal human things to do. And don't blame other people who are still believing it. understand where they're coming from.It does take work. It's not easy. I don't have a [00:42:00] magic bullet solution, but I just think being aware of why you fell for it is important. Cuz most people didn't fall for it for evil reasons. They usually fell for it for really, really good, important reasons. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: So a another quote that you say from your book, it's concerning these foolish people.You say, John says, y'all the claim that they are in a relationship with Christ, that their churches are their families and that they love sinners, but hate sin and that divine beauty is interwoven through all of it. John says, cool story bro. Doesn't mean you're on a cult. . John: Yeah. Well, and it's true. It's just like there's, there's a, there's an element of family that, that they pretend to provide.and that's fine. And sometimes it, it's not all pretend. Sometimes they do some really important things for each other. I don't see why that's intention with the idea that they're a [00:43:00] cult though. I, I, I think, I think you can do good things while being in a cult. I just think cults are bad things. De'Vannon: Just don't drink the Kool-Aid bitches.I'm just saying. Pour it upon the ground and run the fuck away. So then the final run, run, run, run for is run. So the final section called Convert. Hmm. I thought this was such a confident statement for you, for you to write, and I just, I'm just like reading it cause we wanna talk about hell and whether or not you believe it's real, because one of his chapters is I believe it's called a, a yeah, it's called a made up thing called Hell.Y'all. John is the most titillating, tantalizing, thought provoking. This makes you wanna dive into them like some good pussy or some good pussy. Chapter titles. I mean, the, the, the, the, the, I'm gonna read some of 'em. Slave Segregation, sorry. Faux wait. Merit faux [00:44:00] Meritocracy with a side of the Theocratic Tyranny.Selective History, the Myth of Oppression. Made of thing. Call held superficial and super fiscal. You know, the, the, the, just the Fuckings chapter Titles are art. You know what it's gonna be about. And, you know, shit's gonna be edgy and fresh and everything that, that, you know, that we need right now. And so, whew, chapter ta fucking chapter titles gave me life.So, so from, from, yeah. The John: chapter titles are better than the book. So , De'Vannon: that right there is exactly what I'm gonna read now. You exude so much fucking confidence because of the way you're able to slay yourself and kind of make fun of yourself, but then not really, you know, you have to have like the biggest pp or just not even care because you, you just, you're just so like authentically you and you're so like, relaxed about it.Y'all, this is what John says about himself growing up. He says, I doubt [00:45:00] I am the only one to have grown up dabbling in mature discussion topic. It is way too. Wait, what the fuck? Wait, wait. Lemme say that again. I doubt I'm the only one that have grown up dabbling, mature discussion topics way too young to remember being younger than 10 and debating with my cousins over suspicion about who goes to hell.Young is honestly, I'm sure of any philosophers, theologians, our professional commentators, communicators have been around or had been around for this adolescent think tank vomit, would escape from their mouths quicker than corrections even. So good for us for trying to figure out life's deepest questions.And I thought, how, how? Just confident, you know, just to, just to be able to look back on yourself and laugh without being negatively critical. You know, like, I can't believe I thought or did that way. Ha ha ha, ha ha. But here I [00:46:00] am today, so. Can you speak to us about that sort of self-confidence? Where did you get that from?How are you able to look back and say, my God, you know, I was a mess, but not attack yourself. You know, just appreciate where you were then while taking in where you are now. Make jokes about it and just go on swinging your big dick through life, . John: So how do you Well, I was gonna say, I was gonna say the large penis is most of itBut I, no, I think it's so here's the thing. Truth be told, most of my friends would not describe me as confident. Writing provides a, allows me to be the best version of myself. And so what comes across in my writing as confidence is probably what I want to be. It's not always what I am. [00:47:00] The other answer I'll give is therapy.I, I punish and it used to be worse. So I've come a long way, but I punish myself for some of who I was. But I had a therapist. Tell me once how many years is enough to punish you for what you did? On very different things, you know? I mean, I have a, I have a lot of shame about all sorts of things I wish I had done differently in life.But what's, but what's my sentence, right? Like, what, what, what, how long do I have to negatively talk about who I was before? It's enough, before enough time has passed, before I've given myself enough lashes, so to speak. Like, what's the number? Put a number to it. And when she said that to me, it kind of, just reshaped how I thought about things.I'm like, there really isn't anything [00:48:00] stopping me from being the person who I want to be. So that's a little deeper answer than that little anecdote about me talking to my cousins about hell . It was. But I think I, I appreciate you seeing that that that is something actively working on as we speak, and something I want to get better at is, and it's not so much self-confidence, although I, I, I, I, I know I'm witty and I, you know, I, there's just certain personality traits I know about myself.But I wanna love myself and I haven't figured it out yet, but I used to not even want to. And that's the, the biggest change that happened in my life is when I, not, not when I woke up one day and started loving myself, but when I woke up one day and said, loving myself should be a goal. because for a long time it wasn't even a goal, and I was indoctrinated to believe that it would actually steer me away from heaven or my loved ones, or [00:49:00] love in general.If I tried to love myself, I would become selfish. I would become sinful. I would become self-serving because the only way, proper way to love yourself would be to love God. I don't agree with that anymore. I, I think that I th first off, there's a trope going around that's been going around for a while, that you have to love yourself before you can love other people.Bullshit. I'm calling bullshit on it. You can love people so deeply while you hate yourself. You can, you can have all sorts of love. The, the, the, the truth behind that trope is it will not be sustained. You can't sustain love for other people if you're not actively practicing love with yourself.Because love is a practice. It's not just like a thing, you can't help. It takes work, it takes choices. It does take feelings, but it takes controlled [00:50:00] feelings. It takes managed feelings. And for most people it takes some therapy. And therapy can look different for different people. It doesn't have to be sitting on a couch.You know, I, I used to do activity therapy with my therapist going on walks. You know there's all sorts of things you can do for you, and no one's gonna know what you need more than you. But yeah, I, when I look back at my past self, I do feel a lot of shame. But the fact that my goal is to not makes all the difference in the.De'Vannon: Well, I hope you overcome all of that. And I just, there no, remember Jesus being on the cross where I think he had a murder on one hand and a thief on the other? And you know, the Lord says the only sin he won't forgive you for is if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost, which is not something really easy to do.I don't think most people even know what the fuck that means. And so that doesn't mean that as a human we don't have to work through, you know, shame and [00:51:00] guilt. But, you know, I just always like to remind people, you know, and you of that, you know, all things are forgiven no matter what, you know, you know, according to the word of, of Jesus and his work on the cross.So this means a murdering people, oh God, fuck y'all. I'm not saying go out and slice people down, just thinking, go run to the church and ask for forgiveness. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying like, if you're sitting in jail somewhere and you done done it and it's been 20 years and you killed whatever person, Okay, that's over.Now, you know, you have a path forward, but Jesus does require us to tell the truth about everything, you know, to make whatever amends we can to people realistically, you know, and safely, you know, if the person's around, he wants us to as, as, as he says, leave our gift at the altar and go get right with the person.And not to let the sun go down on our anger. But there is always redemption. There is always grace, is grace is sufficient for us. No matter what you have done, you just don't blast being the Holy Ghost. Everything else. It's fine. I regret having sold so many god damn narcotics to people who I [00:52:00]could tell were too, were so weak-willed that I could bend them, you know, to, to my, to my desire.You know, sometimes I think about that, but you know what? It's over. I don't sell drugs anymore. I hate the fact that I prayed on them in their vulnerabilities. You know, to make myself feel good. That's John: such a big one. Can, can I focus on two things real quick? Whatever the hell you want. Okay. Okay. Because pr preying on vulnerabilities is a big part of my shame too.Hmm. And it's really hard because I grew up in a cult that taught me how to pray on people's vulnerabilities. Subtly, not like explicitly, but just being in that environment and all of that. So that's a hard, hard thing. So good on ya. For, for, you're correct. I mean, it's something you can't change.It's not, you know, the damage is done. And you do have to accept that that was a u that [00:53:00]doesn't exist anymore or even more accurately. That's a u that you've done work to and make sure that you're not prey on vulnerable people anymore. And whatever small bit of you that was either naturally good at it or indoctrinated to be good at preying on other people, if you're able to change that about yourself, you are so much better off than so many people who are in the cult who cannot turn that off and have no mechanism to turn that off.The second thing is I don't think you need Jesus for that forgiveness and grace personally. I don't wanna take it away from anyone . That's not, that's not my personality. I'm like, if that, if that, but I just, I would, I would be amiss and offbrand if I didn't if I didn't say you do not need Jesus to have grace.You need yourself to give grace to yourself. Forgiveness is something you can offer yourself to. And [00:54:00] so I, I just, I, I have to get that in there of like, Jesus is a cool archetype, is a cool story, is a cool whatever for it, but you don't need it. And if it's too triggering for you, walk the fuck away.Get the fuck out of there. You don't need it. De'Vannon: I say both because even with Jesus offering all, even when Jesus offering all the forgiveness in the world, if a person cannot accept it or cannot conceptualize that as a reality, then it, it'll never, even though they have it, it won't be in their reality. So to them it won't exist.And so I, I hear you on the self-work part of it. I throw Jesus in there. John doesn't, why, why don't you, why don't you feel like, so do you think, do you, do you think Jesus is more of like a story if he was like a cool guy, do you not believe that he is the son of God? Oh, he is not John: Well, and I'll say why he is not First off, Jesus is only as much God as you and I are.In my [00:55:00] opinion is how I would spin that if I wanted to. Son of God was coined by Paul. Jesus never said he was a son of God. He does make that like illusion where in, in John where he says like I am the father or whatever. Son of God is specifically a Greek term that Paul was using because that was a more familiar Greek idea.Judaism did not have the idea of a son of God. The Jewish understanding of Messiah was not supposed to be a God. It was supposed to be an enlightened human being. So those are just things that developed later. So I just, that terminology doesn't resonate in my worldview. Again, I'm not here to necessarily dog on people's personal beliefs, at least of all yours.But, but I, I more just want to make that clear distinction that it's like what I like about Jesus. Is what's reported about him through a very biased lens, , and through like a very [00:56:00] like developed and evolved narrative, the redemption narrative that we've landed on with Jesus is incredibly powerful, and I think a beautiful story that is probably more beautiful than any other story in literature I can think of.And there might be some sort of value that you can attach to it. I just don't think you need to worship Jesus to get anything De'Vannon: interesting. Oh, I don't take any of this personal, I'm always one thing about Christianity in the, in the, in the, the pursuit of spirituality. In my humility, I guess it might not be too humble for me to call myself humble, but you know, like , that my fucking humility, my fucking god damn humility, I, I understand that not everything is known about the approach to God, the approach to the trinity.You know, I don't believe that I have all the answers and I have enough sense to know anything that I think could be wrong, except for in the case that I've had, like [00:57:00] something miraculous happen, like a dream, a vision, an angelic appearance, you know, a touch by the Holy Ghost, you know, or something like that, you know?Mm-hmm. , my personal experiences, you know, you know, are non-negotiable to me, but my understanding of word of, of what's written absolutely negoti because you know, as I've gotten more into it in trying to learn the original Bible languages and the way they were written in the cultural influence and stuff like that, I've had something like, wow moments.Like, what the fuck? Now, when I was over in the Middle East last year, you know, I was shocked to learn that, you know, where was I at? I was in the United Arab Emirates. You had an Egyptian tour guide and stuff like that, and he was all like taking us all these moss and stuff. He was like, , we don't believe that Messiah has come, you know?Mm-hmm. at all. They're, they're like, Jesus was cool, and they're all about worshiping God. They believe Allah and God are like the same to them, but they're like, N Jesus just one of the other enlightened ones, but they're very dedicated to their, to [00:58:00] God and everything like that. I feel like more dedicated than Christians are, and they're more real about it and shit like that.You know, if I, you know, I could, I could easily fit into, into, you know, the Arabic culture over there. So I'm not surprised to hear you say that you don't necessarily think Jesus is the son of God, because those people don't either. I, I choose to believe that they're massive prosperity comes from their devotion to who they believe in and the way that they treat each other.Mm-hmm. so, so So, so what you're saying is based on what you read and researched Son of God, and Jesus always called himself the son of man according to what I read. You know, but, but I've never, I've never what considered what you've said before, that someone else called him Son of God, you know, he never called himself a Christian.You know, anything like that. Or as you put it, John, you say, every man before Jesus came up with rules, Jesus got rid of him. And then every man after [00:59:00] him added more rules. Mm-hmm. . So people, yeah, people tend to like to add shit. I quote you on that from time to time on my show, I'll be like, John Vanier said this, and soJohn: Yeah. Well, and to be very clear, I, I, I admire and even dare say I'm am inspired by Jesus. But I just, I just, the only, the only thing when it comes to the practical side of things is just anytime my, like my alarm bells go off, when there's a direct tie between, you need Jesus. . That's just like a big red flag to me.Not because some people might need Jesus actually, like personally in their own personal life, it might enrich it, it might give them a spirituality. I like to think of it as a template. It gives them like a template for their spirituality. That's great. But the second it's pe all people need Jesus.Then I'm like, fuck no. I'm like, , get, get that, get that outta my face. Because that is, [01:00:00] in my opinion, going back to the artwork. That's what can create that like hierarchy is just creating that need for Jesus. De'Vannon: Yeah, and that's another thing. I have enough goddamn fucking humility to, to realize that not everybody's going to be a follower of.I know that, you know, as I, as I say, from time to time, I'll hang out with somebody who, who sucks Satan's dick, as long as they're not trying to personally hurt me, because not everybody's gonna be a Christian. Mm-hmm. or be a follower. I hate, I hate the word Christian. So do you feel the same way about like God and the Holy Spirit?Like in terms of non deifying them? John: Woo. Man, once you open up the Trinity, that's a whole freaking new, that's a universe. I'll know if you, if you read that after, after the prologue of, of my book. But I, I believe it's cut off into three sections. Jesus was awesome. God might be [01:01:00] great, and the Holy Spirit haunts me.And the, the God might be great is kind of a, a nod to Christopher Hitchens, who's one of my favorite authors who wrote God is Not Great. Because my, my answer to him is, well, he might be. , but probably not. You know, it's kind of like, yeah, the, I, I, I know what you're saying, but you know, I also understand that most people, for most of history, I think it's a very arrogant stance to to act like the idea of God is silly.I think that's a pretty arrogant stance to have. So it's not one I take when I say the Holy Spirit haunts me. There are spiritual experiences, like you said, for you, they're non-negotiable, right? Like you have these experiences that define your life. I've had those myself. Here's the thing, they are negotiable for me.And I would love to just say this was all in my head. I [01:02:00] can't, I can't know that , but I would love to be able to say that. So for me, I, it's a little different because Jesus, the character of Jesus is the one that's especially in evangelicalism, but in Christianity as a whole, is the one who's dare I say, name has been taken in vain.The most you know, as far as like using him as a character, using him in a very manipulative way. When you get to the Holy Spirit, like you can get really culty really quick when you start talking about like Pentecostals and like, you know, just some of the hooping and the hollering and God told me this, so it must be true that that stuff is yikes.But the concept of God is kind of, has no meaning because the word God means so many different things to so many, to the, to each individual we imagine him that that's like in the, in the proper sense, we imagine him. So maybe less dangerous than, [01:03:00] than. You know, saying you need God is probably less dangerous than saying you need Jesus, but I'd prefer you to say neither, you know and you need the Holy Spirit might be even more dangerous, but it's just probably rarer, you know?But yeah, I don't know if those are just initial thoughts. Again, because, because I'm not an atheist. I don't, I don't claim to be, but I think atheists get a lot of shit because people think they're crazy. And I'm like, well, they're certainly not crazy. I mean, they're the most rational of all of us.They, they're just, you know, I, I just, I just don't identify with it. But I, all of that to say I just love all people and I don't want people to feel like they have to go through a very narrow lens in order to receive love, forgiveness, whatever they want to receive in life. They don't need Jesus for that.They don't need God for that. They don't need the Holy Spirit for. De'Vannon: why.you say you feel like you're, like, what I would call a, like an indisputable encounter with God that I [01:04:00] had. I find it non-negotiable. You said you would like yours to be negotiable. Mm-hmm. , why do you say you would like to be, or you like still fighting against your, the church or your experience?So if God approached you personally, what you're, what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, it's really not negotiable, but you would like it to be. John: Why? I know it's not negotiable for you and I know it's not negotiable for most people. It is negotiable for me. How do you the, the, the thing? Yeah. Well, I don't, most of the time cuz I, I got other shit I gotta doThink about it. But no, I, I, you know, I, I had, I had a, I have a conversion story. I, I felt the presence of God or Jesus or whatever I, I assume as much as anyone. I mean, right? Like I went and studied to be a pastor, like clearly it meant something. I don't think I was just a full on narcissist who was like, oh, I'm gonna be the voice of God, like, da da da da da.Like, I don't, I really don't think, I think it was motivated. [01:05:00] Pretty hol wholesomely and like . I thought it was a, I prayed a lot. I prayed more than anybody I knew, you know? Like, I'm like, surely this was all real, right? I don't know. I was 11. What the fuck do you know, at 11? Like, I'm, I'm like, there, there's, and what do you know when you've been indoctrinated for over a decade?That when you feel certain things, it's definitely this. Oh, like, I'm like, you know, there's like, there's placebos, there's, there's all sorts of things we know about what we can do with our own brain. Then I'm like, I'm not gonna say it was definitely this, or definitely that. I don't know, and I probably never will know, but I'm not gonna live my life based on those experiences because that is that's cheating myself out of a very full life.De'Vannon: Okay, I see what you're saying. What you're saying is due to, you haven't been such a young Impressional age when you went through everything, you don't know if that's like some sort of P t s D, some sort John: of, or, [01:06:00] or even in adult life, you know, like there, I had spiritual moments, if you wanna call 'em that, like an adult life, you know, I was a worship leader.I, I remember very vividly sometimes I was leading worship and like, would be struck with something that felt otherworldly. The whole g the whole gauntlet, whatever a Christian can tell you about their experiences with Jesus, I'll see you one and I'll raise you one, you know, but but I just, I'm just like, but I'm not gonna pretend that because I felt like it was something and I was told to feel like it was something that, it definitely was that thing.I, I just, I wanna, I wanna have a little more humility than that and have a little more understanding of alternative worldviews. De'Vannon: I think churches should start paying all of us reparation checks, s for all this motherfucking mental health shit that we have. So yeah, the checks need to start. The money needs to start flowing the other fucking way away from these churches and

Patty's Picks - NFL Picks from John (yes, Raiders included) then Rob Dauster on Hoops/Bruce Pearl & WWE in Memphis tonight

Welcome to December 27, 2022 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate starting something new and being nutty as a fruitcake.  Anna: You probably didn't notice this Marlo, but December is Learn a Foreign Language Month. Marlo: You know, I didn't notice it obviously. I can't even say "Mario" correctly. Anna: You were too busy giving out calendars and hanging out with Santa Claus. John, didn't you learn Spanish or Portuguese? John: Si, si; uh, espagnol y un petit peu de français. Anna: Wow, I'm impressed. It's because you took a trip. John: Yes, and I learned no Croatian or Greek while I was there. Anna: Well, you know it's not too late. I mean, I know we have like four days, but you can start learning a new language today and it wouldn't be a bad call. What language would you pick Marlo? Marlo: I would probably pick Italian. Anna/John: "Eh, it's a me, it's a Mario." Anna: During Learn A Foreign Language Month don't be afraid to start something new. Your tree may be losing its needles, but one holiday item is still holding onto its cheer, the fruitcake. That's because they are built to last. In the early 1700s these dense cakes were baked during harvest time and loaded with nuts and fruits. They were then saved until the following year to ensure the next season's bounty. Perhaps your fruitcake has become a holiday joke that gets tossed or re-gifted. Don't forget that National Fruitcake Toss Day is just around the corner. On this day fruitcakes are launched in creative ways and last year's cake becomes this year's ammunition. On National Fruitcake Day, celebrate your own favorite tradition, even if you're labeled nutty as a fruitcake.   I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After a brief hiatus, WE ARE BACK! Where have we been you ask? We catch you right up, in full entertainment mode of course. Our return hits you with a TIMELESS number. 1970. Neither of us even born, and most likely you were not either listener, and this classic song graces our ears (and hearts) at its age of 52. This song -"Your Song"-was written from the naive POV of a 17 year old boy and here we are in awe of them. These are seriously some of the best lyrics we have broken down to date and the song itself has yet to become old or annoying to us! He was so certain of its release to the world that he literally wrote "it's for people like you that keep it turned on" and while we are certain it was written about one individual someone...we are equally certain it was written FOR every one. "Your Song" is one we seek out, we love, and we both give a worthy 10! We are so happy to be back...hoped ya missed us :)

John Ridd is the Co-Founder and CEO of Greenpixie, which is building solutions to reveal and reduce cloud emissions. Chad and Will talk to John about giving a clearer view of AWS emissions down to the service level, why cloud emissions are a much bigger sustainability issue than most people realize, and how this will be the next big issue of the climate crisis. Greenpixie (https://greenpixie.com/) Follow Greenpixie on Twitter (https://twitter.com/greenpixiehq), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/greenpixiehq/), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/greenpixie/). Follow John on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-c-ridd/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is John Ridd, the Co-Founder, and CEO of Greenpixie, which is building solutions to reveal and reduce the emissions of the cloud. CHAD: John, thank you so much for joining us. I have to admit that as a developer, this is something that I've been thinking a lot about recently. We practice test-driven development. We run continuous integration, even the things that we have running in the cloud in terms of the websites that we run and that kind of thing. I'm also just really becoming aware of when I make a new branch in everything that I run, and I'm making a code change and pushing that up to GitHub; it then kicks off a build every single time any team member is doing that. And I can just see the impact that even just a single software product can have potentially on our environment. And I've started to become more and more guilty about that. So I'm excited to talk to you about how [laughs] we might be able to fix that problem. JOHN: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the big reasons that we've really seen the opportunity in the cloud emissions space is this disconnect really between how developers are incentivized to think, and rightfully so. They need to build and innovate at all costs; that's what drives the innovation in any tech company or any company. But the sustainability way of thinking and thinking, what am I building? What servers am I using and turning on? Just hasn't been in the conversation with developers. And they're the ones who are making these decisions using cloud providers to build out the products that the company needs. So it's great to hear that you're now aware of this impending issue from development. CHAD: So I'm excited to dig more into the product. But I'm curious, you were doing digital marketing before starting Greenpixie, right? JOHN: Yeah, I ran my own marketing consultancy, worked with a number of companies, big and small. And where I found my knack was sort of demand generation; really, starting off projects from nothing is what I've always done. It's clear now that...so Greenpixie was a bootstrap startup. Really using that ability to at least come up with an idea and take it from zero to one, bring demand to an issue, that's how Greenpixie started. And it actually started with the head of engineering, Chris, who I met at my co-working space, and really we traded ideas through a hackathon on the weekend. And I had this idea when it came to website emissions and just knew that there was a software and a product play there. And what we do is connect into Google Analytics, put it through some carbon algorithms, and give them the ability to see how much digital carbon the website is producing. And from my marketing background, we've developed our own marketing, internal marketing software, which is a combination of we've built our own email servers with a high inbox. And we do semantic web scraping to find relevant prospects in the sustainability space. So we built the MVP and put this idea for Greenpixie out to the world, and the overwhelming response that we got was people being shocked at the idea of digital carbon and how their digital operations do have a sustainability impact. It really gave us the confidence to think there's demand for this idea of emissions. And since then, we've now moved into carbon emissions down the carbon rabbit hole. But my marketing experience explains how it started in the first place. CHAD: So how does...sometimes when faced with, I think, all kinds of climate issues, people can feel overwhelmed or helpless or feeling like what do I do as an individual to have an impact? So what does Greenpixie and Cloud NetZero enable an individual, team, or company, or developer to actually see and do? JOHN: Cloud NetZero connects into the leading cloud providers. So at this stage, we can give a clearer view of your AWS emissions down to the service level. And this is a key first step. So we take a you can't affect what you can't measure philosophy. And that was a big, big step for us. And by cutting into the cost and usage reports and putting it through our carbon algorithms, we can then get visibility to engineers. So everything you're building up in the cloud, we then give a full transparent view of the associated emissions that are being created from that by using our algorithms and methodology to convert the electricity used from the computation and storage and take into account the geographic location of the data centers of which you're using. As you can imagine, there are different carbon intensities in different countries during different times of the day. So we actually hook up into an API that gives us this carbon intensity data down to the hour. So we give a really comprehensive view of your carbon emissions footprint, which is what we consider the gold standard in sustainability. Because what makes the digital vertical so unique within sustainability is we've got data coming out of our ears. [chuckles] The data is there to connect into the software, so we can give this crystal clear picture. Whereas in other branches of sustainability, if you're into supply chains, et cetera, you've got real-world problems that you have to put real-time into. So that's the first step that we do is giving you this clear picture of your emissions. And from that, we then proceed to suggest reduction strategies to reduce those emissions. WILL: John, I'll be honest. Before getting on the podcast with you, I never thought about my cloud emissions as a developer. Now I'm seeing, wow, there is a lot there with that. On your Twitter, I saw this stat: imagine driving 1.3 billion miles all the way to Saturn. The carbon you would release would be about the same as the amount from all of these streams of Netflix's top 10 shows in the month that were released, 6 billion hours of viewing. I'm just mind-blown just thinking about that. For someone who is just now thinking about my cloud emissions, what would you tell me as a developer or any CEO that's listening to the podcast? JOHN: So yeah, you're right. This is a much bigger sustainability issue than most people realize. Currently, it's estimated around 2% of global emissions are from the cloud and data centers use, which puts it near the level of the aviation industry. And because the cloud is so esoteric and it's called the cloud, you think it's light and fluffy, and you're like, okay, it's over there; it's fine. But there's a hard infrastructure that makes up the digital world that we enjoy, and that's thousands of racks of servers. That's so much gallons, like, millions of gallons of water used to cool these data centers. And because of this, there are countries such as Ireland and Singapore that have now begun to ban further construction of data centers. Because in Ireland, over 10% of the grid is taken up by these, well, I believe there was an article in The Telegraph that referred to these data centers as vampires, [laughs] vampires on the grid sucking all this energy up. And the reason that this exists is it comes down to a company level or to a developer level. You're renting these data centers in order to grow your operations. And this aggregate demand goes straight into why these data centers exist and how much electricity they're using. But what you can do for a certain output...because we're a tech company and we love tech. And that makes us different to maybe some sustainability, really hardline sustainability environmental point of view because we actually think you can achieve the same output for 40% less energy use. So there's waste that is pretty rife across the cloud space, and that also comes with the amount of money spent on the cloud. There can be servers that have been left turned on that are no longer used. There can be non-essential computation that could be moved to low carbon intensity hours of the day. And there's so much that can be done and still basically enjoy and build the tech that we all aspire to build. CHAD: I'm going to resist taking a tangent into What We Do in the Shadows and the energy vampire, or we can call them Colin, I guess, instead of vampires. JOHN: Yeah, yeah. [laughter] CHAD: So I used the calculator that you have on the website on our website, thoughtbot.com. I was pleased to see that it produces less carbon than 95% of websites. What goes into that calculation, though? JOHN: So what we do on the estimator, on the webpage, the calculator, so we take into account whether your server being used is green or standard based on requesting that homepage. And then, really, there's a lot of overlap with PageSpeed optimization, rightfully, so the heavier the web pages, the more images. And if it's been coded lazily and it's heavy, which it hasn't been in your case, which I'm sure you're really happy about, that basically does have an effect on the electricity used in order to serve the website. And we also provide a website carbon report, which goes a step further and takes into account your Google Analytics, which goes for all your pageviews and takes into account some other factors too. CHAD: When you're looking at the carbon footprint of a website, am I understanding that you're also taking into account the carbon footprint of the people viewing what it takes to view the website on the client too? JOHN: It's very interesting, and we are going into the client side of emissions. That is definitely something that we're looking into and continue to do so. But now we focus more on the cloud. We stuck with websites as our main priority, that would mean the next step was going into client side, and it can, and that logic does go up. And it shows the ability of measuring sustainability impact when it comes to digital because, of course, you can get device information from Google Analytics, and that can then be used to give an accurate prediction. But that is something that we would definitely consider doing in the future. But you see the potential. It can go in all these different directions. CHAD: A little bit of a meta question, then, so the calculator is running on people's websites. What is the carbon footprint of running the calculator on the site? [laughs] JOHN: Well, that's the thing; we do have transparency of our own operations. So we're a seed-stage startup, and our operations might get a lot bigger. But for now, and given the sustainable approach, we take with how we run our cloud and run these tools, around two tons of CO2 we produce in a month from operations. But looking into other tech companies, you can imagine how AWS can get when it comes to the bigger companies and everything in between. It can really be hundreds or tens of tons. That has been currently unaccounted for and not addressed, which put into perspective, it's acting on your carbon emissions as an individual. And let's say you're a developer who has the power to do this. You can have the effect of like ten times going vegan or not using air travel. So it's just really we really love the idea of combating carbon emissions, and developers, particularly combating carbon emissions is, using your unique skills in order to fight the climate crisis in a way that a non-technical person couldn't. CHAD: So what are some of the things that you're doing as a company to solve that for yourself? Are there particular cloud hosting providers that are actually better than others? JOHN: Yes, it does vary. So there are the big cloud providers, and we are on AWS due to the startup credit scheme, which, as you can imagine, that's very beneficial when you're starting from a bootstrapped model. And within AWS, you can actually...so choosing the geographic location of where you're spinning up the servers is one way you can reduce that. So our servers are in Ireland. So we're part of that issue actually, now that I think about it, because they have a relatively low carbon intensity. And that's one way that we ensure the carbon we're using is minimized. But there's a whole spectrum. So if you wanted to go at all costs and convenience and costs are out the window, there are niche carbon fighters, which actually are off-grid renewable power data centers. If you have the means, that is the optimum you can go in terms of the carbon intensity. But in terms of how we build, so just the typical making sure that we're turning off products, features, and servers that we don't use and being mindful of that, putting non-essential compute to low-carbon intensity periods in the day and just minimizing costs and using computation for a certain output is how we take that philosophy. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. WILL: On your website, I see that 127 billion is wasted in idle cloud spend, so obviously, one of your goals is to reduce that amount. What other goals is your company looking forward to solving? JOHN: I would say our main goal is to reduce millions of tons of needless cloud emissions using scalable software. That is our guiding light. But within that, it correlates largely with cost savings for companies. So we could actually save companies millions of pounds as well or millions of dollars. So I'm from the UK; [laughter] I went for pounds. Yeah, that's the big push; that's our guiding light. And we really want to be the torchbearers for digital sustainability as an idea. So having the awareness, we take responsibility for driving awareness for the issue also. As a team, we have a great combination of technical minds but also creative and marketing, getting the message out there and demystifying carbon emissions. So it's a technical issue because there's a technical issue when you dig into it. But we want to put it in a way that a non-technical decision maker in the C-suite would understand the issue in terms of the effects that you can have as a company in a sustainability drive. CHAD: So you mentioned you got started from that original hackathon idea. And how did things progress for you from there? You now have a team of people working. Did you end up taking some investment in order to continue on? JOHN: We did. We actually started it...so we started it as a passion project from that hackathon, saw the potential. I saw a small business opportunity through the website measuring. And we saw there was demand out there, so we started there. Then we saw it as a side project and continued to see potential and made the call to basically...the initial team was three of us. We went full-time and said let's see what we can do with this. Then I came from a marketing consultancy...I self-funded it to the means that I could for the first six months. It's an interesting experience when you get possessed by an idea, and it's just I need to see this through. I see the potential. It's for a great cause. I think there's a big business opportunity here. And then, really, it came to that point, and we did start going down the investment route. We were part of an incubator associated with the University of Cambridge called Carbon13. It's a really interesting program where they put together experts in climate science, the developers. And you come together to try and come up with these big ideas to basically reduce millions of tons of emissions as a startup. And there was plenty. There was, for example, there was offsetting companies, there was carbon credit startups, everything you can imagine. And it was there that we got put on the investment journey because at the end of the program, you get what was an £80,000 investment to then move on and then go down the VC route. Turns out we didn't get the investment despite us being one of the favorites. It didn't work out for various reasons. And then we were in a situation where I was like, okay, we need to get this investment in order to keep going and scaling the team. And we ended up being VC-backed for our pre-seed from a company in London called Ascension. So we did a £250,000 pre-seed round to get things going. And that's why we have a team who is now working on this full-time. And it's been a bit of a journey, but the trials and tribulations of startups is just the game. And now we're looking to get our seed round. We're hoping to be closing by the end of the year. CHAD: Congratulations on the progress so far. Why do you think Ascension was interested in investing in you? JOHN: So, really, at pre-seed stage, I've talked to VCs and said market, founder, co-founders, anything else is just too early to really know with any certainty. So I think they saw that we were committed, enthusiastic about the idea. Will, the other co-founder, and CTO, is a full-stack developer. It's his second startup. And with my demand generation background, we thought we were a good fit. But really, I think a lot of time and thinking, and commitment has gone into (blood, sweat, and tears) has gone into thinking how we can create a product or software company that addresses carbon emissions. And I think investors have a good radar of when people are really committed, and that's what we were. WILL: You've recently done a soft launch of Cloud NetZero. Can you give me more information around that? JOHN: Yeah, absolutely. We did our soft launch, so this is after the pre-seed investment. We got the 250,000. And we built the product that we laid out in that pitch, which was a software that integrates to AWS and gives you this granular breakdown of your emissions by service. And that was what we presented on our soft launch. We did an in-person event, which we just got a small room and managed to...so around 50 people turned up, which we're pretty proud of. And people do seem to be attracted to this idea. We use my marketing background [laughs] to kind of bolster those numbers. But it was a really great experience. So it was actually on the side of our co-working space where we did a hackathon originally. And it was a bit of an experience, quite a heartwarming experience that everyone has come together. I'm just like, oh, it was in that room that it started as an idea, and now 50 people coming from VC backgrounds, from sustainability, from tech are all coming together. And considering we started in COVID times, to have everyone in the room was just great. So it was great. Yeah, thanks for highlighting it. I really have good memories of that soft launch. CHAD: So people can get a demo and sign up now. JOHN: Yeah, absolutely. So the product is up and running. It went from idea to reality which we're very, very proud of the product team for hitting it on time as well. So we did a 100-day push, and on the 100th day, it was ready for us. And we actually got a big update Monday next week, which is going to be the V 1.1. I call it V2, and then my CTO says, "No, it's V 1.1." [laughter] CHAD: Oh, you need to make your CTO understand that for marketing purposes, you need to make your version numbers bigger. JOHN: Yeah, yeah, he's just like, "If you think that's V2, you don't know what you're saying." [laughter] You can contact us, and we can basically show you the onboarding to get you closer to your cloud provider. And you can have a crystal clear picture of your carbon emissions. And the companies we're talking to now so software companies, so pretty well-known brands. We're now in conversation with as well as just your heavy-duty tech companies. And they're really our ideal client we're looking to now because they have a large amount of carbon emissions, and they want to be really measuring them for their sustainability initiatives. They are actually going to be required to...from the beginning of next year, there's regulation creeping in that's going to make companies measure their Scope 3 emissions, and we have the product to do that. And once we go over that first stage of measurement, then the next step is giving you recommendations to reduce it ultimately, and that will be both in cloud emissions and costs. So we actually are a cost-saving software ultimately because we can highlight wasted cloud spend, and there's a lot of it in these tech companies. CHAD: So you've launched. It sounds like you're focused on getting customers and making sales. How does the pricing work for the product? JOHN: At the moment, we are charging 10K a year to use the software. This is for...so it would be your mid-sized tech company is really who that's aimed for. Anything that goes into really heavy-duty cloud emissions analysis would be probably just down the road just because the complication gets considerably...there's a lot more computing that we need to do on our end, which there are costs associated with that. And there's a lot more, as you can imagine, a lot more hand-holding in order to get integrated and that type of thing. So the pricing would be larger for those more developed companies who have huge AWS accounts. CHAD: A lot of companies' pricing is one of the things that they struggle with early on. I assume you'll learn, and your pricing model will change. But is there something that particularly you weren't sure about when it came to the pricing? JOHN: So the pricing it's really what we're seeing from other parallel softwares on the market more towards the cost reduction side of the cloud. They don't focus on emissions. It's...we'll plug the right place for that. And I think given the opportunity cost, especially from the sustainability and measurement perspective, the alternative is companies are spending a lot of money on sustainability consultants to try and figure out these emissions for the reporting means, and our software does the heavy lifting for you, as any good product does. And with the cost savings on top of that, it's about right for now. But as we improve the product and can accommodate these bigger enterprise clients, the price model will evolve and probably get more expensive. But not to overcomplicate; it is the logic at this point. And once we do have the ability to take on these more complex arrangements, the pricing would reflect that. Yeah, so that's the plan. WILL: Well, John, I thank you for coming on the podcast and being a part of it. Is there anything else that you would like our audience to know? JOHN: We're shouting from the rooftops about carbon emissions. This is going to be the next big issue of the climate crisis. So I truly believe that there are estimates that digital emissions will rise past 10% of global emissions by 2030. Our thirst for data isn't going anywhere. And there's a real chance that computing principles such as Moore's Law that have allowed these improvements in hardware to keep up with the demand for data won't necessarily last forever. And from that, we need to really wake up to the fact that the digital world, despite it being, yeah, it seems like it happens by magic, there is real sustainability impact. But the good news is we think that using the scalability of software...because the scalability of software that has seen so much success for companies can be used to have an equally positive impact on the planet and prevent this issue of digital emissions by using the inherent scalability of digital and availability of data. So that's really what I'm preaching at the moment. And we believe the best first step for that would be a product called NetZero because it gives transparency over these emissions. You can see it in front of your eyes, and then decisions can be made in order to reduce them. That's what I chose to be my soapbox moment. [laughter] CHAD: That's great. John, if folks want to find out more, see that demo, get in touch with you; where are all the different places that they can do that? JOHN: greenpixie.com is where you can just contact us, and we'll be straight on the phone with you. Another place to see what we're really up to and get more ideas of digital sustainability the best place is probably our LinkedIn company page. We're quite active on there. If you want to take your first steps into digital sustainability, start there. And if you think your company is ready to act on their carbon emissions or you just want to find out a little bit more, then yeah, just contact us through our website, and we'll have a chat. CHAD: Awesome. Everything that John just mentioned is going to be linked in the show notes, along with a complete transcript for this episode. You can subscribe to the show and find all of that at giantrobots.fm. WILL: If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. CHAD: You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHAD: Thanks for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: John Ridd.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with Dawn Brodey and Brian Forrest, talking about the various film versions of “Frankenstein” and “Dracula.”Dawn gave me 4.5 films to revisit: The 1931 version of Frankenstein, Frankenweenie (the feature and the short), Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and Young Frankenstein.Meanwhile, Brian assigned me the original Nosferatu, the 1931 Dracula, Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein, Horror of Dracula, Dracula in Istanbul and Bram Stoker's Dracula. LINKSDawn's podcast (HILF): http://dawnbrodey.com/ - showsBrian's Blog and Vlog, Toothpickings: https://toothpickings.medium.com/ A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Frankenstein (1931) Trailer: https://youtu.be/BN8K-4osNb0Frankenweenie Trailer: https://youtu.be/29vIJQohUWEMary Shelley's Frankenstein (Trailer): https://youtu.be/GFaY7r73BIsYoung Frankenstein (Trailer): https://youtu.be/mOPTriLG5cUNosferatu (Complete Film): https://youtu.be/dCT1YUtNOA8Dracula (1931) Trailer: https://youtu.be/VoaMw91MC9kAbbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein (Trailer): https://youtu.be/j6l8auIACycHorror of Dracula (Trailer): https://youtu.be/ZTbY0BgIRMkBram Stoker's Dracula (Trailer): https://youtu.be/fgFPIh5mvNcDracula In Istanbul: https://youtu.be/G7tAWcm3EX0Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastDawn and Brian TRANSCRIPT John: [00:00:00] Before we dive into the assignment you gave me—which was to watch stuff I hadn't seen and also rewatch stuff I had seen to get a better idea of who's done a good job of adapting these books—let's just jump in and talk a little bit about your area of expertise and why you have it. So, I'm going to start with you, Brian. I was very surprised after working with you a while to find out that you had a whole vampire subset in your life. Brian: A problem, you can call it a problem. It's fine. John: Okay. What is the problem and where did it come from? Brian: I was just vaguely interested in vampires for a while. When I was in my screenwriting days, someone had encouraged me to do a feature length comedy about vampires, and that led me to do a lot of reading. And then I just kind of put it aside for a while. And then I was, I had just finished a documentary for Committee Films and they said, do you have any other pitches? And I thought, and I said, you know, there's still people who believe in vampires even today, that could be really interesting. And I put together a pitch package. Then, the guy in charge of development said, [00:01:00]this is what we need to be doing. And then it stalled out. Nothing ever happened with it. And I said, what the hell. I could do this on my own. I could fly around and interview these people. And I did, I spent a couple years interviewing academics and some writers. And along the way, I started finding all these very intriguing moments in the history of either vampire lore or fiction or even just people who consider themselves vampires today. And all these things would connect to each other. It was a lattice work of vampires going back hundreds of years. It didn't fit the documentary, unfortunately, but I found it way too interesting. And I said, I need some kind of outlet for this. And so I started writing about it on Tooth Pickings. And that eventually put me in touch with people who were more scholarly, and it opened up a lot more conversations. And now I can't get out. I'm trapped. John: Well, the first sign is recognizing there's a problem. [00:02:00] Okay. Now, Dawn, you had a different entryway into Frankenstein. Dawn: Yeah, well, I was a theater major and a history minor at the University of Minnesota. Go Gophers. And, this was in the late nineties, early two thousands, when there were still a lot of jobs for people who had degrees and things like this. Or at least there was a theory that this was a reasonable thing to get educated in. And then I graduated in 2001, which was months after 9/11, when all those jobs went away. And so, I had this education so specific and what was I gonna do? And gratefully the Twin Cities is a great place for finding that kind of stuff. And one of my very first jobs out of college was at the Bakkan museum. So, the Bakkan museum was founded by Earl Bakkan, who is the inventor of the battery-operated pacemaker. And he has always, since childhood, been obsessed with the Frankenstein movie that came out in 1931. And he attributes [00:03:00]his great scientific invention and many others to a science fiction in general. And to the spark of the idea that comes from sources like this. So, when he opened the museum, he insisted that there'd be a grand Frankenstein exhibit. And that means going back to the book, and that meant going back to the author, Mary Shelley, who wrote the novel Frankenstein, she started writing it when she was 16.And so, I was hired because—boom, look at me—my degree is suddenly colliding, right? So, I was hired by the Bakkan museum to create a one-woman show about the life of Mary Shelley, where I would play Mary Shelley and would perform it within the museum and elsewhere. And through the course of that research, I read the novel for the second time, but then I read it for my third, fourth, fifth onwards and upwards. Because the show was about 45 minutes long, I referenced, you know, the novel, the books, the popular culture, the science behind it. And the deep dive just never stopped. And so long after I was required to do the research and the show was done and up, I just kept reading. [00:04:00] And it gave me the opportunity to meet experts in this field and the peripheral field, as I would sort of travel with this show and be an ambassador for the museum and stuff like that. And, yeah, it still curls my toes. John: All right, so with that background. I'm going to just be honest right here and say, I've read Dracula once, I've read Frankenstein once. So that's where I'm coming from, and both a while ago. I remember Frankenstein was a little tougher to get through. Dracula had a bit more of an adventure feel to it, but something I don't think has really been captured particularly well in all the movies. But they both have lasted and lasted and lasted.Why do you think those books are still, those ideas are still as popular today? Dawn: I will say that I think Frankenstein, it depends on what you mean by the idea. Because on the surface, just the idea of bringing the dead to life, is, I mean, the Walking Dead franchise is right now one of the most popular franchises. I mean, I think we are really pivot on this idea. And I remember saying to a friend once that the part in [00:05:00]Revelation where the dead rise is like the only part of the Bible that I don't question. It's like, oh, the dead will get up. You know, we always just seem to be real sure that at some damned point, they're getting up. And so I think that that is part of why that it sticks in our brains. But then the story around Frankenstein—especially as it was written in 1818—has so many universal and timeless themes, like ambition and what is right and wrong. And the question that Jurassic Park posed in 1995 and continues to—1993 around there—and continues to pose, which is: just because science is capable of doing something, should it do something? And how do we define progress? Surely the very idea of being able to beat death and not die seems to be kind of the ultimate goal. And here is someone saying, okay, so let's just say, yeah. We beat death and everyone goes, oh shit, that'd be terrible. [00:06:00] You know? And then also, I always love the idea of the creature, the monster, Frankenstein's creature himself, who has a lot of characteristics with which people have identified throughout history. Some people say, for example, that Mary Shelley's whole purpose for writing Frankenstein was a question of: didn't God do this to us, make us these ugly creatures that are imperfect and bumbling around and horrifying? And then once he realized that we weren't perfect, he fled from us in fear or fled. He just keeps going and every generation has a new media that tells the story a little bit better, a little bit different, and yeah, there we are. John: I will say that for me, the most memorable part of the book was the section where the monster is the narrator and is learning. And I think with the exception of Kenneth Branagh's film, it it's something that isn't really touched on that much. There's a little bit in Bride of Frankenstein, of him going around and learning stuff. But the sort of moral questions that he [00:07:00] raises as he's learning—what it is to be human—are very interesting in the book. And I wish they were in more of the movies, but they're not. So, Brian on Dracula, again, we have dead coming to life. Why do we love that so much? Brian: Well, it's one of the questions that made me want to make a film about it myself: why has the vampire been so fascinating for hundreds of years? Why does it keep coming back? You know, it ebbs and flows in popularity, but it never leaves. And it keeps seeming to have Renaissance after Renaissance. Dracula specifically, I think one of the interesting things about that novel is how many different lenses you can look at it through and not be wrong.People have looked at it through the lens of, is this thing an imperialist story? Is it an anti-imperialist story? Is it a feminist story? Is it an anti-feminist story? And you can find support for any of those views reading Dracula. And I think that some of it might be accidental; there's times where Dracula is catching up to whatever the cultural zeitgeist [00:08:00] is right now. And we look at Dracula and we say, oh, he was thinking about this back then. Or maybe Bram Stoker was just very confused and he had a lot of different ideas. John: All right, let's explore that a little deeper. You each gave me an assignment of some movies to watch or to re-watch that you felt were worth talking about, in relation to your subject of Frankenstein or Dracula. I'm going to start with Frankenweenie, just because I had not seen it. And in going through it, I was reminded—of course, as one would be—of watching Frankenweenie, I was reminded of Love, Actually. Because I came to the realization after years of Love, Actually being around that it—Love, Actually—is not a romantic comedy. It is all romantic comedies, all put into one movie. And Frankenweenie is all horror films. Condensed, beautifully and cleverly into one very tasty souffle. [Frankenweenie Soundbite] John: I stopped at a certain point making note of the references to other horror films. Just because there are so many of them. But the idea that it references everything from Bride of Frankenstein to Gremlins. They do a rat transformation that's right out of American Werewolf in London. The fact that they have a science teacher played by Martin Landau doing the voice he did as Bela [00:10:00] Lugosi in Ed Wood. I mean, it's a really good story that they just layered and layered and layered and layered. What was it about that movie that so captivated you? Dawn: Well, so much of what you just said. And also it seems to me the epitome of the accessibility of the story of Frankenstein. The idea that if anyone can think of any moment in which if I could bring someone back to life. But what I love about it too, is that the novel Frankenstein that is not Victor Frankenstein's motivation. It generally tends to be the motivation of almost every character, including the Kenneth Branagh character--at some point, he, when Elizabeth dies, his wife dies for the second time, he says, yes, I'm going to try to bring her back. But it is so not the motivation of the scientist in the book. It is just ambition. He just wants to do something no one else has done. And lots of people die around him and he really never, ever says to himself at any point in the novel, I wish I could bring them back, I'm going to bring them back. That's never, that's never part of it. He just wants to be impressive. And so, I love [00:11:00] that it starts with that pure motivation of wanting to bring the dead to life; just wanting to bring your dog back, so that it's so accessible for everyone watching it. Who wouldn't wanna try this? But then, even in that scene with the teacher, when he shows the frog. And he's demonstrating that if you touch a dead frog with electricity, its legs shoot up, which give the kid the first idea of bringing his dog back. Which is like a deep cut in, in the sense that that's nothing -- Mary Shelley herself and her friends were watching experiments exactly like that before she wrote the book: galvanism and animal magnetism were these really popular public demonstrations happening in London and elsewhere where they would do just that. But because electricity itself was so new, I mean, it blew people's hair back you know, that these dead frogs were flopping around. It was the craziest thing. And a lot of them were thinking to themselves, surely it is only a matter of time before we can, we're gonna have our dead walking around all the time. So, it was so circulating and so forward. [00:12:00] So it's not just movie references and it's not just Frankenstein references. That movie really includes source deep source references for how Frankenstein came to be. And I just love it. John: Which brings me to Frankenstein, the 1931 version, in which Colin Clive has a similar point of view to what you were talking about from the book. He just wants, you know, he wants to be God. [Frankenstein soundbite] John: What I was most impressed with about that movie or a couple things was: it starts, it's like, boom. We're in it. First scene. There there's no preamble. There's no going to college. There's no talking about it, right? It's like, they're starting in the middle of act two. And I think a lot of what we think of when it comes to Frankenstein comes from that movie, [00:13:00] that the stuff that James Whale and his cinematographer came up with and the way they made things look, and that's sort of what people think of when they think of Frankenstein. Now, as you look back on that movie, what are your thoughts on the, what we'll call the original Frankenstein? Dawn: Yeah. Well, I love it. You'll find with me and Frankenstein that I'm not a purist. Like I love everything. Like I have no boundaries. I think this is great. One of the things that 1931 movie did was answer—because it had to, anytime you take a novel and make it a movie, you take a literary medium and make it a visual medium, there's obviously going to be things that you just have to interpret that the author left for you to make for yourself individual. And in this instance, that individual is the cinematographer. So, we're gonna get their take on this. And one of the real ambiguous things that Mary Shelley leaves for you in the novel is the spark of life. What is the spark of life? She does not in any [00:14:00]detail describe lightning or static or any of the recognizable or, or future developments of how electricity would've been. Brian: I was shocked when I first read that book and saw how little space was devoted to that, that lab scene. It's blink of an eye and it's over. Dawn: “I gathered the instruments of life around me that I may infuse a spark of being into the lifeless thing that lay at my.” Period. I just, what I love is what I love about film in general is that they went, oh, spark being all right, girl, it's a dark and stormy night and you know, and there's chains and there's bubblers and there's a thing. And the sky opens. I mean, God bless you, like way to just take that thought. Make it vivid, make it, build a set, make us believe it. And it's so, so pervasive that in Frankenweinie, you know, which of course is about Frankensein. [00:15:00] Like that is one that they do: he's got the white robe that ties in the back and the gloves. And in Young Frankenstein, it's the, you know, that lab scene. And so I love that. And the other thing that they had to do was describe the look of the creature, make the creature—Frankenstein's monster himself—look so like something. Because she, similarly in the novel, says that he is taller than a regular man, has dark hair and yellow watery eyes. That's all we know about what the Frankenstein looks like. And so, in 1931, Boris Karloff with the bolts. And it's black and white, remember, we don't think his skin is green. That he turned green at some point is kind of exciting, but of course he was just gray, but just dead flesh, you know, rotten, dead walking flesh is what's frightening. And, I just thought that the movie did that so well, John: I think the makeup was kind of a green/gray, and that when color photos came out of it, that's why someone went, oh, [00:16:00] it's green, but it wasn't green. Brian: I thought I saw a museum piece of, you know, an actual makeup bit that Jack Pierce did and I thought it was greenish. Dawn: Yeah. Greenish/gray. I think, yeah, the rots, just kind of trying to capture the sort of rotten flesh. Brian: It's just like the bride's hair was red. Dawn: That's right. That's right. My day job here in Los Angeles is as a street improviser at Universal Studios, Hollywood. And two of their most treasured characters of course are Frankenstein and Dracula. So, while most people might separate them, John, they are usually arm and arm where I work every day. And the bride has recently come back to the theme park as a walking character, and they gave her red hair. We don't mess around. John: That's excellent. But you mentioned Dracula, let's jump into the 1931 Dracula. There's a connection point between the two that I want to mention, which is the amazing Dwight Frye, who is Fritz, I believe in Frankenstein. And I'm not the first one to mention his naturalistic [00:17:00] acting kind of putting him above everybody else in that movie. Famously, when he's running up the stairs, stopping to pull his socks up at one point. He's just really, really good in that. And then you see him in Dracula as the, essentially the Harker character. I think he was called Harker -- Brian: Yeah. Well, he's Renfield in Dracula. They merged those two characters. I thought it was a smart move for a first attempt at the film. Yeah. And Dwight Frye, he's in a lot of other Universal horrors, too. Dwight Frye often doesn't get the credit. He somehow was not the leading man he should have been. John: I don't know why that is. He turns up again as an assistant in Bride of Frankenstein. He's a towns person in Frankenstein meets the Wolfman. And then he tragically died on a bus ride to an auto parts job that he took because he wasn't getting any acting work, which was too bad. A really, really good actor. Brian: There is another intersection besides the fact that they were both produced by Junior. Lugosi was put into the [00:18:00] short, the trial film they shot for Frankenstein. I can't call it a short film, because it was never intended for release. But they shot a cinematic test reel and they had Lugosi play the monster, but he was under a sheet the whole time. I think he may have been able to pull the sheet off. It's a lost film. We don't know for sure. We just have kind of the recollections of a few crew people. John: I've never heard of that. I would love to see that. Brian: I would too. I think a lot of people would really love to see it, but it was as much a kind of a testing ground for Lugosi— whether they wanted him to be the monster—as it was for some of the techniques, the things they wanted to try in the film. And what I understand is the producer saw the test reel and they said, yes, we love this look, this is the look we want you to give us. And then it's whatever version of Lugosi not getting that part you want to believe: whether Lugosi turned it down or the producers didn't like him or something. But he ended up not taking that part. John: But he is of course always known as Dracula. So, what are your thoughts on their adaptation? Which [00:19:00]again is not the first adaptation but is the kind of first official? Brian: Yeah. The first to bear the name Dracula, although, well, I'll back up a second. Because some releases of Nosferatu called it Dracula. He would be named as Dracula in the subtitles, you know, because that's an easy thing to do in silent film, you can just swap that out however you want to. But yes, it's the first authorized official film adaptation. John: Well, let's back up to Nosferatu, just for a second. Am I wrong in remembering that the Bram Stoker estate—Mrs. Stoker—sued Nosferatu and asked that all prints be destroyed? And they were except one print remained somewhere? Brian: Close. That is the popular story that she sued Prana Films. She won the lawsuit. All films were set to be destroyed. Now there's a guy named Locke Heiss and a few others who've been doing some research on this. And they will tell you that there's no proof that a single print was ever destroyed. It's a more fun story to say that, you know, this one was snuck away and now we have the film. But there was no real enforcement mechanism for having all the theaters [00:20:00]destroy the film. Who was going to go around and check and see if they actually destroyed this film or not? Nobody, right? So maybe some people destroyed it. Maybe Prana Films destroyed their remaining copies. But the exhibitors kept all of theirs and there's different versions and different cuts that have been found. So, we know that some of these reels went out in different formats or with different subtitles or even different edits. And some of them have made their way back to us. John: There's some really iconic striking imagery in that movie. That haunts me still. Brian: What I always tell people is see the film with a good live accompaniment, because that still makes it hold up as a scary film. If you see a good orchestra playing something really intense when Orlok comes through that door. It feels scary. You can feel yourself being teleported back to 1922 and being one of those audience people seeing that and being struck by it. John: What do you think it would be like to have [00:21:00] seen that or Dawn to have seen the original Frankenstein? I can't really imagine, given all that we've seen in our lives. If you put yourself back into 1931, and Boris Karloff walks backwards into the lab. I would just love to know what that felt like the first time. Dawn: You know, what is so great is I was fortunate enough to know Earl Bakkan who saw the movie in the theater in Columbia Heights, Minnesota when he was 10 years old.And he went, he had to sneak in. People would run outta this, out of the theater, screaming. I mean, when they would do the close up of Frankenstein's Monster's face, you know, women would faint. And of course that was publicized and much circulated, but it was also true. People were freaking out. And for Earl Bakkan—this young kid—the fear was overwhelming, as you said. And also in this theater, I was lucky enough, I did my show in that theater for Earl and his friends on his 81st birthday. So, I got to hear a [00:22:00] lot of these stories. And they played the organ in the front of the curtain. Brian: Is this the Heights theater? Dawn: Yes, the Heights. Brian: Oh, that's an amazing space. Dawn: So, they played the organ in there and it was like, oh my God. And it was so overwhelming. So, I'm glad you asked that question because I was really fortunate to have a moment to be able to sort of immerse myself in that question: What would it have been like to be in this theater? And it was moving and it was scary, man. And yeah, to your point, Brian, the music and the score. I mean, it was overwhelming. Also, I think there's something that we still benefit from today, which is when people tell you going in this might be way too much for you, this might scare you to death. So just be super, super careful. And your heart's already, you know… John: And it does have that warning right at the beginning. Dawn: Yeah. Versus now when people sit you down, they're like, I'm not gonna be scared by this black and white movie from 1931. And then you find yourself shuffling out of the bathroom at top speed in the middle of the night. And you're like, well, look at that. It got me. Brian: That reminds me, there [00:23:00] was a deleted scene from the 1931 Dracula that was a holdover from the stage play. Van Helsing comes out and he breaks the fourth wall and he speaks directly to the audience. And he says something to the effect of—I'm very much paraphrasing—about how we hope you haven't been too frightened by what you've seen tonight, but just remember these things are real. And then black out. And they cut that because they were afraid that they were really going to freak out their audience. Dawn: It's like a war of the world's thing, man. It's oh, that's so great. I love that. [Dracula Soundbite] John: So, Brian, what is your assessment of the 1931 version? As a movie itself and as an adaptation of Stoker's work? Brian: The things they had to do to try to adapt it to film, which they borrowed a lot of that from the stage play. They used the stage play as their guide point, and I think they made the best choices they could have been expected to make. You know, there's a lot of things that get lost and that's unfortunate, but I think they did a decent job. I don't find the 1931 version scary. I like Bela Lugosi. I think he's a great Dracula. I think he set the standard. With the possible [00:25:00]exception of the scene where the brides are stalking Harker slash Renfield, I don't think the imagery is particularly frightening. The Spanish version, I think does a little bit better job. And you know the story with the Spanish version and the English version? Dawn: We actually talk about it on the back lot tour of Universal Studios. Because they shot on the same sets in some cases. Brian: Yeah. My understanding is that Dracula shot during the day, Spanish Dracula would shoot at night. So, they got to benefit maybe a little bit by seeing, okay, how is this gonna be shot? How did Todd Browning do it? Okay. We're gonna do it a little bit differently. It's a little bit of a cheat to say they move the camera. They do move the camera a lot more in the Spanish version, but the performances are a little bit different. I'm going to, I can't get her name out. The actress who plays the ingenue in the Spanish Dracula, I'm not going to try it, but you can see her kind of getting more and more crazed as time goes on and her head is more infected by Dracula. You see these push-ins that you don't see in the English version. There's blocking [00:26:00] that's different. I put together a short course where I was just talking about how they blocked the staircases scene. The welcome to my house, the walking through spider web. And how it's blocked very differently in the two versions. And what does that say? What are these two directors communicating differently to us? In one, Harker slash Renfield is next to Dracula. In one, he's trailing behind him. In one, we cut away from the spider web before he goes through. And in the other one, we see him wrestle with it. That's not really what you asked, John. Sorry, I got off on a tear there. John: I agree with you on all points on the differences between the two films. Although I do think that all the Transylvania stuff in the English version is terrific: With the coach and the brides. The Spanish version, the biggest problem I have is that their Dracula looks ridiculous. Brian: He's not Bela Lugosi. You're right. John: He looks like Steve Carell doing Dracula and there is no moment, literally no moment [00:27:00] where he is scary, whereas Lugosi is able to pull that off. Brian: There's a lot of people who have observed that the Spanish Dracula would be a superior film were it not for Bela Lugosi being such an amazing Dracula in the English version. John: He really, really nailed it. Brian: And since he learned his lines phonetically, he could have done the Spanish Dracula. Just write it out for him phonetically, because he didn't speak English very well. John: If we could just go back, you know, cause a lot of things in history we could change, but if we could just be at that meeting and go, Hey, why not have Bela do it? Okay. So then let's jump ahead, still in Dracula form, to Horror of Dracula. From 1958. With Christopher Lee as Dracula and Peter Cushing as Van Helsing. [Soundbite from Horror of Dracula] Brian: For some people, Lee is the ultimate Dracula, and I think that's a generational thing. I think he's great. He's got the stage presence and I love Peter Cushing as Van Helsing. I don't like the film as a whole. It feels like I'm watching a play with a camera set back. It doesn't work for me the way it works for other people. That is personal taste. Don't come after me. John: It does, however, have one of the greatest, ‘Hey, we're gonna kill Dracula' scenes ever, with Peter Cushing running down the table and jumping up and pulling down the drapes and the sun. Brian: Oh, right. Interesting. Because in Dracula, the book, the sun is not deadly, remotely really. But that's [00:29:00]the influence of Nosferatu being pasted onto the Dracula cannon, that the sunlight is deadly to Dracula. Dawn: I remember having this fight very enthusiastically in the nineties when Bram Stoker's/Winona Ryder's Dracula came out and I was already sort of a literary nerd. And they were like, hey, they have a scene with him walking around during the day. And I was like, yeah, nerds. That's right. That's cuz vampires can walk around during the day.I was very already, like, you don't know anything, go back to history. Brian: And there's a seventies version where he's out on a cloudy day, but he is not hurt either. There suggestions in the book that he's more powerful at night. Dawn: He's a creature of the night. I always understood he had to wear sunglasses. He was sort of like a wolf. Like they show him as a wolf during the day; it can happen, but it's not great. Brian: I like the way they did it in the Gary Oldman version. He's suited up. He's got the sunglasses on. There's not a whole lot of skin exposed. But he's not [00:30:00] going to turn into smoke. John: Well, okay. Let's talk about that version and Kenneth Branagh's version of Frankenstein. Dawn: Ug. John: I'm not going to spoil anything here, when I say it doesn't sound like Dawn cared it. Dawn: You open this, you opened this can of worms. John, sit down for a second. Listen. He calls it: Mary Shelly's fucking Frankenstein. I inserted the fucking. I'm sorry, I wasn't supposed to say that. He calls it. He calls it. How dare you, Kenneth, Brannagh, call this Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. So that was A-number one. But I went into it all excited: It's Kenneth Brannagh. Love him. He calls it Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and he starts with the ship captain out at sea, just like the book. And so I pull up my little, you know, security blanket and I'm like, oh, Kenneth Brannagh, do this to me, buddy. Do it to me buddy. Show me Mary Shelley Frankenstein as a movie. [00:31:00] And then he just fucks it up, John. And he doesn't actually do that at all. It's a total lie. He screws up every monologue. He makes up motivations and then heightens them. And it's dad. The acting is capital B, capital A, capital D across the board. Everybody sucks in this movie. It looks bad. The direction is bad, and it has nothing to do. He tries to bring Elizabeth back to life. This is a huge departure from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Thank you very much, Mr. Brannagh, that's all I have to say for now. John: All right, I was fooled by the fact that he started at, at the north pole. Dawn: That's because he's tricking us, John. That's because it's the whole movie is a lie. John: Okay with that same mindset, what do we think of Bram Stoker's Dracula by Francis Ford Coppola? Dawn: I love that one. Brian: I'm afraid that I don't have, I can't match Dawn's intensity in either respect. Um, except I thought Robert DeNiro [00:32:00] was really good in Frankenstein. Dawn: But that's no, he's not. you're wrong. Your opinion is valid and wrong. Yeah, I'm kidding for listeners who don't know me. I am, I am kidding. Of course. Everybody's opinion is valid except for that one. Yeah. The movie, everything about that movie is bad. John: He is, I think, miscast. Dawn: And Helen Bonan Carter is one of the finest actresses of not just our generation, but of all time. And she sucks in this movie. John: Right. So. Bram Stoker's Dracula. Brian: Bram Stoker's Dracula. [Soundbite: Bram Stoker's Dracula] Brian: Also produced by Branagh. And I assume that is the connection, why they both start with the author's name. I always call it Coppola's Dracula because it gets too confusing to make that distinction. I thought it was a decent movie, but it didn't feel like Dracula. It felt like someone who had heard of Dracula and wrote a good script based on what they had heard. So many divergences that bothered me, although I think it's aged better than it felt the first time. I remember seeing it when it first came out in the nineties and not thinking much of it. And I think audiences agreed with me and it seems like it's been kinder, that audiences have been kinder to it as it's gotten older. John: Okay. Dawn, you love it. Dawn: I loved it. I loved it. It, you know what though? That was one of [00:34:00] those movies that unlike, unlike Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, I can't look at with like an adult critical eye because I, what year did it come out? Was it like 90, 92? I'm like middle school getting into high school and like Winona Ryder was everything. Vampires are everything. I mean, Gary Oldman is the, is a great actor and it's so sexy, very sexy. The sex is Primo. And so I remember loving it, very moving. I don't remember comparing it as certainly not as viciously to the novel because I read Dracula after I had seen the movie. And so there's always that inherent casting where Nina is always going to be Winona Ryder. But I do remember really loving the Gothic convention of the letter and that the movie did seem to utilize and to great effect how letter writing can build suspense and give us different perspectives in a, in a unique cinematic way. Brian: [00:35:00] The two or three biggest stakes that film puts in the ground are not to be found in the book. So there's no love story in the book. There's no Vlad in the book. John: Can I interject there? Isn't that basically, didn't they just rip that off of Dark Shadows, The idea of my long lost love is reincarnated in this woman. I must connect with her. Brian: That is a good question, John. I'm glad you asked that because I call it the doppelganger love interest. Right? We first see that, the first time I know of it happening, I'm sure there's an earlier precedent, is in The Mummy, but then Dark Shadows does it. But that's not where Stoker, I mean, that's not where Coppola and a screenwriter claimed to have gotten the idea. They claimed to have gotten it from Dan Curtis's Dracula in 74. John: Dan Curtis, who produced Dark Shadows, with Barnabas Collins, falling in love with his reincarnated love. Brian: But Dan Curtis's Dracula comes out two years after Blacula. That has a reincarnated love interest. John: Not only does the Blaclua [00:36:00] have a reincarnated love interest, but if I'm remembering movie correctly at the end, when she says I don't want to go with you. He goes, okay. And he's ready to go home. It's like, sorry to bother you. Brian: No, uh, in Blacula, he commits suicide John: Oh, that's it? Yeah. He walks out into the sun. Brian: He goes home in a different way. John: Yes. He's one of my favorite Draculas, the very stately William Marshall. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. That is a favorite of mine. John: Anyway, you were saying stakes in the ground from Coppola's Dracula. Brian: Well, the, the love story, the equating Dracula with Vlad the Impaler. And I felt like they did Lucy really bad in that movie. They had her turn into a wanton harlot, which is not in keeping with the book. Some things are okay, but they really said these are the building blocks of our story and that bugged me. But Anthony Hopkins I liked, so, all right. Dawn: Alright, but see, this [00:37:00] the itch that still that still makes me wanna scratch though: why say Bram Stoker's Dracula? Why say Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? I mean, because I think you heard the venom, obviously. If they took Mary Shelley's name off that thing, you can make Frankenweenie. And I will love, like, I love Frankenweenie. Do your Frankenstein homage all day, all the time. But when you call, when you say it's Bram Stoker's, I think that this is what has been frustrating historians like me and getting high school students Ds in English class ever since. Because it just creates the false perception that you've basically read the book. Right. Or that you, if you know the thing you know the book and it's just a cheap ploy. And I don't like it. Brian: I think, somebody correct me on this, that there, there had been a plan to do a reboot of the Universal monster franchise, and these two movies were supposed to be the reboot of it. [00:38:00] And then they would've then done HG Wells' Invisible Man. John: The Mummy killed it. They've tried to reboot it several times. And that was the first attempt. Brian: Yeah, I've heard that called the dark universe. They were trying to do their own MCU. Dawn: Yeah. Well, at Universal Studios, there is of course in, in LA, in general, there's the property wars, you know? What what's, who has what? And sometimes those get really blurred. Like why does Universal Studios have Harry Potter? When we can see Warner Brothers from the top of our wall/ And that's obviously, you know, those things happen. But when it comes to like the IP or intellectual property, those original monsters are so valuable and they always are at Halloween. And then it's like, sort of, how can we capitalize on this? And yeah. And it's cross generational. Brian: All they really own right now is the look right? They own Jack Pierce's makeup job from Frankenstein. Dawn: But I think that that's exactly the point; [00:39:00] the delusion of what is it that you own if you own, you know, Frankenstein, whatever. But yes, there was definitely an interest to sort of revamp all of the original Universal Monsters they call them and it's the Mummy, Frankenstein, Dracula, and the Invisible Man. John: It's everybody who shows up in Mad Monster Party. Dawn: Exactly. [Soundbite: Mad Monster Party] Dawn: But yeah, The Mummy, starring Tom Cruise, was a tremendous flop. And I think that sort of took the wind out of everybody's sails. John: Let me ask you this, Dawn. If Mel Brooks had titled his movie, Mary Shelley's Young Frankenstein, instead of Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein, would you have a problem with that? Dawn: Yeah, no, but no, I would not have had a problem, because that would've been irony and juxtaposition. Not just a straight lie. John: So that brings us to some comedies. Young Frankenstein and Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, which I was very surprised and a little unnerved to [00:40:00] realize a few years back, Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein was made a mere 10 years before I was born. And I had always assumed it was way back then. And it's like, no, it wasn't all that way back then. It was pretty, pretty recently. Brian: That happened to me when I realized that Woodstock was only six years before my birth. And it always seemed like ancient history. John: Is that the common thing, Madame Historian? That people kind of forget how recent things were? Dawn: Oh yeah. Remember Roe V. Wade. Sorry, too soon. Brian: We're recording this on that day. Dawn: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it happens to everybody so much faster than you think it's going to. I remember looking around in the nineties feeling, well, surely the seventies was ancient history, you know, because they had That Seventies Show, which debuted as like a period piece. I am still very young and hip and happening and [00:41:00] they are in production for That Nineties Show right now. And I said to my husband, That Nineties Show. I was like, Jesus, I guess that's 20 years because I was in the nineties they did That Seventies Show. And he goes, no baby that's 30 years. And I was like, I'm sorry. I said, I'm sorry, what? He goes, the nineties was 30 years ago. And I just had to sit down and put my bunion corrector back on because these feet are killing me. John: All right. Well, let's just talk about these two comedies and then there's a couple other things I wanna quickly hit on. What are our thoughts on, let's start with Young Frankenstein? [Soundbite: Young Frankenstein] Dawn: I told you I'm not an idealist and we're not a purist about Frankenstein, but I am an enthusiast. So that is why I told you to watch Kenneth Branagh's movie, even though I hate it so much. And that is also why I love Young Frankenstein, because I think that it is often what brings people into the story. For many, many people, it introduces them to the creature. They may know literally nothing about Frankenstein except for Young Frankenstein. And that's actually fine with me because I'm a comedian myself. And I believe that parody is high honor. And often when you parody and satirize something, especially when you do it well, it's because you went to the heart of it. Because you got right in there into the nuggets and the creases of it. And there is something about Young [00:43:00] Frankenstein as ridiculous as it is that has some of that wildness and the hilarity and The Putting on the Ritz. I did find out from my Universal Studios movie history stuff, that that scene was very nearly cut out. Mel Brooks did not like it. And he just didn't like that they were doing it. And of course it's the one, I feel like I'm not the only one who still has to make sure that my beverage is not only out of my esophagus, but like aside, when they start doing it. [Soundbite: Young Frankenstein] Brian: And I understand they were about to throw away the sets from the 1931 Frankenstein when Mel Brooks or his production designer came up and said, Stop stop. We want to use these and they were able to get the original sets or at least the set pieces. John: I believe what it [00:44:00] was, was they got Kenneth Strickfaden's original machines. Ken Strickfaden created all that stuff for the 1931 version and had been used on and off, you know, through all the Frankenstein films. And it was all sitting in his garage and the production designer, Dale Hennessy went out to look at it because they were thinking they had to recreate it. And he said, I think it still works. And they plugged them in and they all still worked. Brian: Oh, wow. Dawn: Oh man. It's alive. John: Those are the original machines. Dawn: I didn't know that. That's fantastic. John: At the time when I was a young kid, I was one of the few kids in my neighborhood who knew the name Kenneth Strickfaden, which opened doors for me. Let me tell you when people find out, oh, you know of the guy who designed and built all those? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I know all that. One of my favorite stories from Young Frankenstein is when they sold the script. I forget which studio had said yes. And as they were walking out of the meeting, Mel Brooks turned back and said, oh, by the way, it's gonna be in black and white, and kept going. And they followed him down the hall and said, no, it can't be in black and white. And he said, no, it's not gonna work unless it's in [00:45:00] black and white. And they said, well, we're not gonna do it. And they had a deal, they were ready to go. And he said, no, it's gonna stay black and white. And he called up Alan Ladd Jr. that night, who was a friend of his, and said, they won't do it. And he said, I'll do it. And so it ended up going, I think, to Fox, who was more than happy to, to spend the money on that. And even though Mel didn't like Putting on the Ritz, it's weird, because he has almost always had musical numbers in his films. Virtually every movie he's done, he's either written a song for it, or there's a song in it. So, it's weird to me. I've heard Gene Wilder on YouTube talk about no, no, he didn't want that scene at all, which is so odd because it seems so-- Brian: I never thought about that, but you're right. I'm going in my head through all the Mel Brooks films I can remember. And there is at least a short musical interlude in all of them that I can think of. John: But let's talk then about what's considered one of the best mixes of horror and comedy, Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein [00:46:00] [Soundbite: Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein] Brian: As with comedies of that age, it, it starts off slow, but then it starts to get very funny as time goes on. And all the comedy is because of Abbot and Costello. They are the, [00:47:00] the chemistry they have on screen. I don't know how much of that was actually scripted and how much of it was just how they rolled with each other. But it works really well. Not much of the comedy is provided by the monsters or the supporting cast or even there's maybe a cute, a few sight gags. But wouldn't you say most of the comedy is just the dynamics between them? John: It is. The scary stuff is scary and it's balanced beautifully at the end where they're being chased through the castle. The monsters stayed pretty focused on being monsters and Abbot and Costello's reactions are what's funny. Dawn: If I may, as someone who has already admitted I haven't seen much of the movie, it's feels to me like it may be something like Shaun of the Dead, in the sense that you get genuinely scared if zombie movies scare, then you'll have that same adrenaline rush and the monsters stay scary. They don't have to get silly. Or be a part of the comedy for your two very opposing one's skinny, one's fat, you know, and the way that their friendship is both aligning and [00:48:00]coinciding is the humor. Brian: I believe there is one brief shot in there where you get to see Dracula, Frankenstein's monster and the Wolfman all in the same shot. And I think that might be the only time that ever happens in the Universal Franchise. During the lab scene, does that sound right John? John: I think you really only have Dracula and the Wolfman. I'll have to look it up because the monster is over on another table-- Brian: Isn't he underneath the blanket? John: Nope, that's Lou Costello, because it's his brain that they want. And so they're fighting over that table. And then just a little, I have nothing but stupid fun facts. There's a point in it, in that scene where the monster gets off the table and picks up someone and throws them through a window. And Glenn Strange, who was playing the monster at that point -- and who is one of my favorite portrayers of the monster, oddly enough -- had broken his ankle, I believe. And so Lon, Chaney, Jr. put the makeup on and did that one stunt for him, cuz he was there. Brian: He did that as Frankenstein's monster? John: Yes. Frankenstein. Brian: I didn't know that. Yes, I [00:49:00] did not know that. So he plays both of those roles in that movie? John: Yes. Let me just take a moment to defend Glenn Strange, who played the monster three times: House of Dracula, House of Frankenstein, and Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein. In House of Frankenstein, he is following up the film before that, which was Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman, in which, in this very convoluted universe, Lugosi is playing the monster, even though he didn't wanna do it in 31. Because his brain in Ghost of Frankenstein had been put into the Monster's body. So, in Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman, it is Lugosi as the Frankenstein monster. It is Lon Chaney Jr., who had played the monster in Ghost of Frankenstein, now back to playing Larry Talbot. So, it is Wolfman versus Frankenstein. And the premise of the script was he's got Ygor's brain and it's not connecting properly. He's gone blind. They shot that. They had tons of dialogue between the two characters of Larry Talbot pre-wolfman, and the monster, Bela Lugosi. And the executives thought it sounded silly. So they went in and they cut [00:50:00] out all of Lugosi's dialogue out of the movie. So now you have a blind monster stumbling around with his arms in front of him, but he doesn't talk. And if you look at the movie, you can see where he's supposed to be talking and they cut away quickly. And it's really convoluted. Glenn Strange who then has to play the monster next, looks at that and goes well, all right, I guess I'm still blind. I guess I'm still stumbling around with my arms in front of him. Which is the image most people have of the Frankenstein monster, which was never done by Boris in his three turns as the monster. So with, in that regard, I just think Glenn Strange did a great job of picking up what had come before him and making it work moving forward. Anyway, a couple other ones I wanna just hit on very quickly. Brian asked me to watch Dracula in Istanbul. Under the circumstances, a fairly straightforward retelling of the Dracula story. I would recommend it--it is on YouTube--for a couple of reasons. One, I believe it's the first time that Dracula has actual canine teeth. Brian: Yes. John: Which is important. But the other is there's the scene where he's talking to Harker about, I want [00:51:00] you to write three letters. And I want you to post date the letters. It's so convoluted, because he goes into explaining how the Turkish post office system works in such a way that the letters aren't gonna get there. It's just this long scene of explaining why he needs to write these three letters, and poor Harker's doing his best to keep up with that. That was the only reason I recommend it. Brian: That movie is based on a book called Kazıklı Voyvoda, which means The Warrior Prince and it was written in, I wanna say the 1920s or thirties, I wanna say thirties. It's the first book to equate Dracula and Vlad the Impaler, which I've come back to a couple times now, but that's significant because it was a Turkish book and the Turks got that right away. They immediately saw the name Dracula like, oh, we know who we're talking about. We're talking about that a-hole. It was not until the seventies, both the [00:52:00] fifties and the seventies, that Western critics and scholars started to equate the two. And then later when other scholars said, no, there, there's not really a connection there, but it's a fun story. And it's part of cannon now, so we can all play around with it. John: But that wasn't what Bram Stoker was thinking of? Is that what you're saying? Brian: No. No, he, he wasn't, he wasn't making Dracula into Vlad the Impaler. He got the name from Vlad the Impaler surely, but not the deeds. He wasn't supposed to be Vlad the Impaler brought back to life. John: All right. I'm going to ask you both to do one final thing and then we'll wrap it up for today. Although I could talk to you about monsters all day long, and the fact that I'd forgotten Dawn, that you were back on the Universal lot makes this even more perfect. If listeners are going to watch one Dracula movie and one Frankenstein movie, what do you recommend? Dawn, you go first. Dawn: They're only watching one, then it's gotta be the 1931 Frankenstein, with Boris. Karloff, of course. I think it has captured [00:53:00] the story of Frankenstein that keeps one toe sort of beautifully over the novel and the kind of original source material that I am so in love with, but also keeps the other foot firmly in a great film tradition. It is genuinely spooky and it holds so much of the imagery of any of the subsequent movies that you're only watching one, so that's the one you get. But if you do watch any more, you've got this fantastic foundation for what is this story and who is this creature? John: Got it. And Brian, for Dracula? Brian: I was tossing around in my head here, whether to recommend Nosferatu or the 1931 Dracula. And I think I'm going to have to agree with Dawn and say the 1931 for both of them, because it would help a viewer who was new to the monsters, understand where we got the archetypes we have. Now, why, when you type an emoji into your phone for Vampire, you get someone with a tuxedo in the slick back hair or, I think, is there a Frankenstein emoji? Dawn: There is, and he's green with bolts in his neck. [00:54:00] Brian: Yeah, it would. It will help you understand why we have that image permanently implanted in our heads, even though maybe that's not the source material. We now understand the origins of it. Dawn: And if I may too, there's, there's something about having the lore as founded in these movies is necessary, frankly, to almost understand what happens later. I mean, I get very frustrated in 2022, if there is a movie about vampires that takes any time at all to explain to me what a vampire is, unless you're breaking the rules of the vampire. For example, you know, like in Twilight the vampire sparkles, like a diamond when it's out in the sunshine and is the hottest thing ever. That's really great to know. I didn't know that about vampires. That wasn't necessarily true before, you know, but you don't need to take a lot of time. In fact, when you do read Dracula, one of the things for me that I found very frustrating was the suspense of what is it with this guy? They were like: He said we couldn't bring [00:55:00] garlic and they take all this time. And you're kind of as a modern reader being like, cuz he is a fucking vampire. Move on. Like we know this, we got this one. It's shorthand Brian: That's one snide thing I could say about the book is that there are times where Dracula's powers seem to be whatever his powers need to be to make this next scene creepy and move on to the next chapter. John: He was making it up as he went along. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

INTRODUCTION: I hold a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Exposition, with an interdisciplinary in Literature, from Moody Bible Institute. I was one of two recipients of the MBI Homiletical Jury Award for outstanding preaching in 2016. I have experience as a youth pastor, pastoral intern, academic journal editor, and guest speaker.  I used to be a part of the largest cult in the United States. In 2019, I published my first book as a first step in addressing the subtle issues of this complex system. In 2021, I continued my work with this podcast!  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      The Cult That Is Christianity ·      Control – Containment - Conversion·      How Sermons Are Put Together·      Toxic Positivity ·      Churches' Role In Divorce·      Religious/Church Trauma·      How The Church Likes To Be Like The World·      Different Rules For Leaders Vs. Followers In Church·      Why We Have Trust Issues With The Church·      Where Did All These Rules Come From?·      An Interesting Explanation Of Narcissism ·      Religious Discrimination  CONNECT WITH JOHN: Website, Social Media & Books: https://linktr.ee/thecultofchristianity CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00] You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hey, y'all and welcome back to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. I love having you every week. I, so look forward to it and this week is no different and we're coming in hot and heavy with episode 67. As we talk about some religious and church trauma. Y'all John Verner is my guess. And this man is a smart motherfucker.He is well educated. He is well learned, well traveled and well studied. He's the author of the book [00:01:00] called the cult of Christianity. He hosts a podcast after the same title. And in the days episode, we're discussing his very hurtful history with churches as he opens up about his very, very, very personal experiences while he's giving us at the same time, a very inside look at how churches work, because he's been on staff at churches and things like that before.I hope you're delighted about everything. John has to say take a listen.Hello? Are you beautiful bitches? I would like to welcome you right back here to the sex drugs and motherfucking Jesus podcast. I have with me a delicious that nutritious man by the name of John M I'm gonna pronounce his name as VAE because John: VAE, I love that.That's so no one's ever done that. That's good. That's my name from now on. I love that De'Vannon: he is the host of the coat of Christie Andy podcast, and he is [00:02:00] a, the author of a delicious and nutritious book titled the same. And everyone knows my history, my chaotic and turbulent history with the church. And so when I discovered this son of a bitch, I decided, Hey, John: hi.Hi. Hi, how you doing today? I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me on I love the, the title of your pod. I was laughing cuz haven't had a ton of sex. I've only done a little bit of drugs, but boy, I've done a lot of Jesus. So I'm, I'm happy to be on. De'Vannon: Oh, the way Jesus is packaged by these churches makes him just as much of a narcotic as anything.John: absolutely. Absolutely. De'Vannon: So you've had all the drugs and so. In your own words, tell us your history and everything. Before I open my cock holster and do it for you. John: all right. Sounds great. Yeah. So I grew up very religious [00:03:00] very Christian. I had what you might call like a, a reformed upbringing, which is kind of a more conservative and formal version of evangelicalism.And my dad was in leadership in the church. Church was a part of life. We went to Sunday morning and evening service. We went, you know, a couple times during the week. And so all my social life was at church. I was homeschooled. So church was kind of the world to me. But I was always a pretty skeptical child.Things didn't quite add up to me. So it wasn't until age 11, where I officially converted after asking a lot of questions about how we could trust the Bible and what if we're all questions? And so I was really good. Other than that, though, I was a goody two shoes, you know, never did nothing [00:04:00]wrong.But then after I converted to Christianity officially, I yeah. Decided to take it very seriously to the point where at 17 years old, I felt the call to be a pastor. And so started looking at college options and. There weren't a ton for undergrad. And so I was like, well, I want to, I wanna get going now I'm on fire now.Praise Jesus. So wanted to, I wanted to go be a pastor and I didn't want to have to wait eight years to do it. And so I found a good at the time reputable college where I could study biblical exposition. So I went and got that degree. I have a bachelor of arts and biblical exposition with an interdisciplinary literature and got that, got married, got hitched.And by the time I graduated, [00:05:00] I was a little burned out. I thought it was just normal ministry burn. And so I figured I'll take a little time off from this church stuff. I'll still go to church regularly. I was still a youth pastor. That's what taking it taking time off. Looks like when you're a Christian is just doing less, but still being very active.And so. Then I went through a very, very messy divorce that kind of drove me into a downward spiral. Had a bit of a, a flirtatious dance with alcoholism. I like to say where you know, I, and nothing really mattered anymore. And I was trying to reconcile all the problems I had had with Christianity my whole life that I just kept kind of putting on the back burner.And I got burned by the church. My ex-spouse got burned by the church as well through the process of our divorce. And I was like, you know, I'm not sure, I'm not sure if all of this [00:06:00] is true. Fast forwarding through a lot of funny stories. You get to me living in a van, traveling with my cat across the country where I started to write my book, the cult of Christianity, how church's control, contain, and convert.So I wrote that book was expecting a lot of backlash, got some . But not as much as I was expecting, I suppose. So that was nice and refreshing. And then in early 20, 21 I was thinking of different ways to promote the book. And I was like, oh, a lot of authors have podcasts to promote their books.So let me do it that way. And I was like, but you know, probably only six people will listen or whatever, it'll be nothing. And then the podcast did way better than the book did and so I got to start interviewing people. I was very interested in interviewing, including Christians that's. Some of my favorite stuff to do is get into interviews with [00:07:00] Christians.And so that's kind of what I do now. And currently I'm between seasons, but it's really been rewarding to be able to talk about from both my experience and my expertise. How Christianity, especially white American evangelicalism functions as a cult. That's me. De'Vannon: Hallelujah, tabernacle and praiseSo we're gonna dig deep into everything that you just said. I wanted to get into your podcast artwork though. Mm-hmm cause it there's this huge guy standing on a pedestal platform or a chair or something like that. And then three minions surrounding him and bowing. And I couldn't tell, is that supposed to be God or is that supposed to be the church or a preacher?What does that, what does this artwork mean John: to you? Wow, this is FA nobody's ever asked me this. This is a great question. So I've gone through different iterations of artwork have even consulted with other people to update the artwork, cuz it's pretty [00:08:00] old at this point and I haven't been able to get away from it.And one of the main reasons is I love the non-descript nature of it. There it's it's for, for your audience, it's basically clip art and it looks you can't tell if it's. The gender, the race you can't tell if it's God or if it's a preacher. And I like that because I think that's a lot of what goes on at church who, who is being worshiped.Who's the one bowing, the knee, who's the one on the pedestal. So every time I've tried to make the artwork more grabby or more interesting, I end up saying more with it than I mean to but the, the, the, the way I interpret it and other people can interpret it. Other ways is cults have hierarchies.There's always leaders and followers. There's always one person or several people on pedestals, and then other people just basically having to [00:09:00] submit to their authority and in any environment where that is demanded, I think it can qualify as a cult. My three alliterative words are control containment, conversion.And so I hope that the art communicates like that's, if you were able to zoom out and take away all the social constructs, that's kind of what Christianity actually is concur. De'Vannon: Yeah. I appreciate the, I appreciate the the ambiguity of the huge figure. And I I've said the same thing myself and I've, and I've been, I've done this in the past, you know, worship to pastors without really realizing it.I worship the building, the worship leaders you know, anybody up on a stage and yeah. And, you know, so, and I learned in, in my hypnotherapy training, you know, when a person is on a stage, we subconsciously bow them in a way, you know, before we even realize that just by virtue of them being on a stage.And [00:10:00] we're not really as critical of people as we should be, just because they're on a stage. So you said your Bible college was credible at the time. Did they fall into some scandal or anything since you grew? Oh John: A handful it's moody Bible Institute. You can just Google moody Bible Institute, controversy, moody Bible Institute, title nine moody Bible Institute you know abuse, whatever while, while I was there, I mean about just while I was a student there were about.I would say at least two or three, pretty like nationally recognizable scandals. The thing is, it's such a small school that people forget about it very quickly. The campus I went to doesn't even exist anymore. It's it's shut down. They only have one campus now in Chicago and I believe they're struggling pretty hard.But yeah, the, the [00:11:00] what's funny though, is the education I received at the secondary campus, I would say was, was shockingly solid. It was, it was pretty good. But the culture was brutal. It was bad toxic from the top down. De'Vannon: Lie, scandals and John: deceptions. Yeah, the fun. So De'Vannon: a gondola , but you were pretty good.I read where you, you were one of two recipients of the, the moody Bible Institute, home tical jury award for outstanding ING in the year 20 scene. So does that mean you can hoop and holler or John: what? Yeah, I, I won preaching. So yeah, it was silly. It's it's so every graduating senior at moody Bible Institute, I believe on both campuses faces a Holi jury homily, just meaning sermons a jury, meaning people who judge youAnd so [00:12:00] you stand before, it's usually a panel. I think it's four judges, usually a preacher from the local community, the preaching prof. An administrator and another professor and yeah, scored almost perfect on my sermon. So it was fun. But can you imagine anything more boring than a bunch of 22 year olds preaching 30 minutes sermons for three to five hours over two days and sitting through them and marking them on how good their gestures are, their use of visual aids.Did I get the big idea of their sermon? That kind of thing. But I'm apparently I was really good at it, so I don't know what that says about me, but you, De'Vannon: you preached for three or to five hours straight for three John: days. Oh, I just preached 30 minutes, but there was the students rotate through. Okay.For hours. Yeah. Okay. So what De'Vannon: I'm curious about. You, you, you, you, you just said like a few of the things that they critique you on. [00:13:00] I wanna know exactly how they analyze a sermon for quality, because this is my gripe I have with, with this new culture where these churches, the, they pre-write the sermon, they gotta get previewed by the board or whatever, you know, before it's put out to the church, I feel like they're doing that so they can be sure they have certain keywords and phrases and everything.So they can effectively, still mind fuck the congregation. to me, it feels like it's not as authentic. You know, it as how, when you read, like, you know, the Hebrew Bible and everything like that, when those people preach, they just got up and spoke. It was the same thing were the preachers who raised me.There was none of this. I need to write it down shit. And so, yeah. What, what rubric, what are they checking for? John: Wow. This is a huge, I mean, this is worth a whole episode. I, I, I particularly enjoy deconstructing how servants work, because I think a lot of people don't [00:14:00] even know the process and there are a million different styles.So the camp I was trained in would be called big idea, preach. There are literally books about different styles and structures of sermons. But the I guess philosophy or, or ministry style I, I was trained in is called big idea preaching. Big idea. Preaching just means there's one big idea you're trying to get across throughout the whole sermon.It's you repeat one phrase? The sermon I won on the big idea was God lets us be lonely so that we will know he is our only which boy, is that a problematic statement? But, but it won. And so, so, so many things, one in, in the camp I'm trained in, you memorize your sermon, meaning you manuscript it, you type every single word you're going to [00:15:00] say, and you memorize it.You have no notes. And I'm very thankful for that, cuz it makes you an effective speaker. But when. I'm most cynical about my degree. I joke that I have a degree in Ted talks because that's kind of what sermons, at least in the more trendy churches are now. Some of the more old school, if you're in a traditional Protestant church, you might hear three point sermons that was very common.They'll usually have an alliteration or something like that, you know, three CS or, you know, four DS or whatever. Mm-hmm, kind of a point by point sermon that's pretty common. Most sermons are gonna have a, basically like a, a three part structure, a hook, you know, where you get people interested in listening to you.It could be a personal story or an anecdote from history or something like that. Then it's got the meat of the content that can look like reading through the Bible and commentary style, you know, where you're just commenting on the verses as you're going through, or it can [00:16:00] be principles you've drawn out.You might, this is where you would do word studies or talk about the original context and then application, or what, why is this relevant? Is usually the third part in the style I was trained in. And that third part is where you relate it back to Jesus and the gospel story. So sermons are very ordered and structured now in different eras of history, they have been different things.And even in the us, I mean, during the great awakening, they were very you know, fire in brimstone. We joke about that, but, but they were oftentimes off the top of the head and very impassioned different cultures worldwide have viewed sermons very differently. Sermons, in my opinion, didn't even really exist back in ancient Judaism they, they were more storytellers and, and so there might have been parables, but what we would think of [00:17:00] now as a sermon, I, I don't think quite existed until probably the apostolic era.Probably I don't even personally think Jesus preached sermons which is not a popular belief, but I think he was just speaking and people were following him. And some of it got written down. So, so sermons mean different things to different people. But if we're talking about the word preach and Greek, I mean, it really just means proclaiming or talking.It, it's not a thing that a special person ordained by a committee reviewed by peers is supposed to speak about, it's not an academic thing or at least it wasn't originally. So it's definitely turned into something quite different than it used to be.What do De'Vannon: you think about Joel Ostein? John: I love him. De'Vannon: wait. I bring him up. I know. I, I get to sarcasm in your toes. Yeah. I, I [00:18:00] bring him up because that's the church that I was at before I got kicked out. And mm-hmm, I talk about, I talk about Lakewood church a lot because that's where my greatest church trauma happened at.Had it been at beque church of God in Christ or Sally's church, or the way that I would talking about beque or Sally and not Joe Ostein, but that's just where the shit went down. And it just happens to be the largest church in America. And but it's convenient for my task. Since he is, since he does own the largest church in America, other churches look up to him and they try to emulate the things that they do.And so, and that's why I like to dissect them all the time, because you have a lot of people, there's people who even like stream and broadcast their service into like their gym auditorium. And that is their service. Right. At least the case when I still went there. So their influences is global mm-hmm what, what do you, what, what, just tell me what you think [00:19:00] about them.John: So I have a, probably the strangest X evangelical non-Christian anymore relationship with Joel Ostein in that everyone wants to talk about him. And they did when I was at Bible college too, like in, in a negative light. And he deserves a lot of it. Don't get me wrong. I mean, he is, he is very like outwardly Almost unapologetically in it for the money.I mean, you don't have to be a super like analytical person to just look at his church and go something doesn't add up here. The problem with him is he is a great scapegoat for more local churches and people who think they're better than Joel Ostein. And they're not doing the exact same things that Joel Ostein does.He's a great scapegoat for them to say, yeah, you gotta watch out for wolves and sheeps closing, like Joel Ostein instead of facing how they operate Colts in very similar ways. So [00:20:00] that's kind of the angle I come at it from don't get me wrong. Everything negative anyone's ever said about Joel Ostein is probably true.But he does not scare me as much as the local churches do. Primarily because local churches don't have a national audience. They're not under the same kind of microscope. They can get away with a lot more. So those are just my initial thoughts, but I'm happy to dig into more De'Vannon: dissect the preaching style.So when I was there, people used to, you know, criticize him for being too happy. They would say people would jump up in the middle of a sermon and holler and stuff before security and their asses out of the building and stuff like that. I'd show up the church and there'd be protestors and everything like that.I thought all of that was a bit extreme. Mm-hmm but, but I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I [00:21:00] was like, I'm happy to hear something happy instead of the fire in the Bri me Stoney. But since after I got kicked out of there, I went through so much bad stuff. The person I am now like a message, like his would be too, like Milky, like it wouldn't sustain.Like it, it doesn't really speak to deep shit. John: Yeah. Well, so the it's kind of like the concept of toxic positivity, right. He, and, and in Christian circles, they'll call it the prosperity gospel. So yeah, I think that's bad. I think it's bad not to be able to admit that life is tough and hard and like has bad things in it.And when you're unable to articulate that it's suspicious. I because the background I came from was never positive and toxically cynical. Again, Joel Ostein doesn't trigger me as much. I'm like, oh look, someone being a nice person. Who's a Christian. That's refreshing. [00:22:00] So, so that's kind of what I, I think, but I will say, so I read, I read your best life now.And I, you know, I was in a culture that thought Joel Ostein was the devil. And so I always kind of was more charitable towards him than a lot of other people. But as far as the preaching style, he's a great speaker and people who emulate him are gonna be great speakers. Why? Because it's the same formula Ted talks do.You can watch a Ted talk and think it's the most amazing thing you've ever heard. And then you sit back for another five minutes and you're like, I have no idea what they actually. Like, I, I don't, I don't know if they said anything of value at all, or if they just have such a good speaking style that it was engaging, regardless of whether the material was actually relevant to anythingSo I think the same thing goes on with Joel Ostein. I think it's nice to listen to 'em it feels good. And then you sit back and you go, you didn't really say anything like nothing, [00:23:00] nothing profound was said, I De'Vannon: concur. And y'all when he says your best life. Now he's talking about Joel's first book. And I read that one too.And I agree with you. I was like, and even as I was going to church there for all those years, it got to a point, well, the sermons started being repeated from time to right. And then I would kind of be like and especially now that I'm away from it, I'm like the fuck that you really just say , but you know, that's a part of the whole.Hypnosis aspect of it, you know, by the time you're done with all the laser lights and the worship and the smoke fog and everything like that, your critical mind is blasted. Like you don't have any yeah. You're just open to whatever the fuck is going to be said. And and what you said about it being a formula, it's true.Like I see the same shit replicated in all the OST stings, the way they preach. Mm-hmm, be it, the ones there at Lakewood or their extended family to have other churches in Texas and stuff like that. [00:24:00] And the way they all crank out these books and everything, you know, it finally collected me when, like, this is not it's like, so like rare and special.This is not necessarily God saying thou shall preach this. Or thou she write this book, right. Bitch has got an ABC 1 23 algorithm. And you're just repeating the same shit over again. Mm-hmm and then my problem is with that is that they don't share it to the whole world. Like they're only giving it to like their select few people.Yeah, John: well, any good business model, you don't give away all your content for free, right? And churches are no different. You know, they, they claim everything is free. But it's not, it's, it's a, it's an MLM. It's you know, the, and, and that comes in my opinion, from their theological perspective, that all you need to have a good life is to just believe Jesus was God.I mean, that's a crazy formula to assume, and it comes with a million asterisk because you can [00:25:00] believe Jesus is God, but then all of a sudden you have to serve in the church. You have to have these kind of sexual practices. You have to raise this kind of family. You there's a lot of strings attached the further in you goDe'Vannon: hallelujah, tabernacle and praise. So I wanna go back to this divorce, so sure. How do you identify sexually? John: I don't no, I I I, for, for the sake of my queer friends, I will say that I am SISs head to society. SISs head SISs head SISs head as I'm a cisgender man heterosexual. Sure. Yeah, we'll just go with that.Personally. My, my personal feelings about sexuality is everybody's on a spectrum. The labels are helpful sometimes, but for broad stroke purposes, but if [00:26:00] you actually wanted to get to know me, a simple conversation with a simple label will never do the trick. Oh. De'Vannon: So I might get to have my way with you yet.John: gotta keep the hope alive. De'Vannon: Hercules Hercules. And so, yeah, so, so. I wanna know just how nasty it got with this divorce. Cause I've talked to people like I was kicked out cause they found out I wasn't straight. And they were like, basically you're pedophile will give you conversion therapy if you want it.Other than that, you can't stay. Yeah. So when, and I, but I I've heard of churches treating people who get divorced the same way. Like I don't think getting divorced is I have a lot of opinions on that, but just tell me what happened. I wanna know just, just how nasty did they get? John: Yeah. So I I'll mention, you know, there's obviously parts that I'll omit just outta respect for my expo.But what I will say is it, it came about suddenly it wasn't directly related to any [00:27:00] spiritual issues. We were both, I mean we met at Bible college. So, you know, there, there were expectations that went along with that that I think. Both of us had expectations that changed as we got older, but had no tools to communicate them because we were so indoctrinated to do it a Christian way, but the Christian way did not fit what we wanted to be in our life.So and I wish I was as mature as I am now to, I, I would never have been able to articulate that while it was happening. And, and I was a pretty bad husband. I, I do take 99, if not a hundred percent of the responsibility for that marriage ending. But as far as how it related to the church, they wanted to be so involved and basically micromanage the process of us getting [00:28:00] back together, which initially was both of our goals.When we first separated, we did, we didn't do a clean break. You know, we were. She they had moved out and we were trying to you know, figure out if there was a path forward. And we were, you know, seeing a relationship coach we were actually communicating better than we ever had, but the church was concerned that our relationship coach wasn't, you know, a biblical counselor or whatever.And every time they would meet with us, which we met with them a lot both the head pastor and associate pastor it was like a very mob like, or mafia, like where, you know, well, what are you, are you doing it this way? You know, what, what kind of do, are you interested in our community? I, we would sometimes skip church, right?Because we were exhausted cuz it was an exhausting time and every time we skip church, they would say, even if it's too triggering for y'all to come to ours, you'd need to be going somewhere. [00:29:00]You should never skip church basically. And so it, it, it. It really hurt because by this point I had been burned by churches in big ways, at least two times prior.And so this was definitely a final straw moment for me because I knew what to expect and it happened. And it was just kind of like the, the two previous experiences had really led me to believe that churches can be really toxic, but they're not supposed to be. And the third one was kind of the, the, you know, what do they say in comedy?Two is a suggestion, three confirms the pattern. It was a confirming the pattern that, oh, this is what churches do. This isn't like exception to the rule anymore. They make people feel like crap if they don't do things their way. And it hurt really bad. So that was all kind of vague. I can get [00:30:00]into some more of the details, but, but in general, the idea was.If I did not follow a very specific pass path, I was not going to be welcome regardless of the fact that I had more religious education than most of the congregation, regardless of the fact that I had been a pastoral intern and youth pastor with them, regardless of the fact that I had written some of their policies to protect their children because they had none, regardless of all this effort I had put in, it didn't matter.I was still under their control. De'Vannon: What do you think gives churches the this, this notion that they can poke their nose and the people's personalized? Why do John: they're they're divinely appointed to do so in their head? I mean, that's, that's why they're there. God has put them there to watch over the F.I mean, this is, it is it's from top to bottom, their mentality. [00:31:00] There's there's leaders and followers at church. There always will be because that's, that's the structure that has, has come about. And Catholicism it's stark, right? Like it's, it's obvious, like you have the Pope, you have priests. It's a very, like, you know, they'll even be like you know what clergy is supposed to be abstinent depending on who you ask, but most would say are supposed to be abstinent.I mean, there's like these hu and dressed differently. I mean, these are huge markers, the same things present in evangelicalism and Protestantism. It's just more secretive. It's not as out to the public. They dress different, they talk different, they look different, they eat different. They have different schedules.Everything is different between leaders and follow. Because De'Vannon: when I was and all, all of those activities reinforces the hypnosis and the mind. Fuck. Yeah. Cause it was, I was at Lakewood. They would bring me into the office and ask me if I had a girlfriend. Yeah. You know, see what I'm John: like. It [00:32:00] matters like yeah.De'Vannon: You know, like and that's a huge problem I have with Joel because when he gets on camera, he's all like, everyone's welcome, you know, case sirrah. Yeah. But then he has these policies going on behind closed door that are very discriminatory. Some people have even alleged, possibly legal, you know, and stuff like that.And and so it's just really like a trip. And so you said that you wrote policies to protect children, protect them from. John: Well, just like with any church, you should have policies about you know, relationships with youth ministers and, and kids and, and policies about you know, if, if you're gonna do like any kind of field trips with kids, that kind of stuff, you should just have policies things for parents to sign, just to protect you legally.It's, it's honestly as much to protect the church as anything else from, from lawsuits. But in my opinion, you should also just wanna protect kids from [00:33:00] abuse. And they just didn't have, I mean, they were a pretty young church plant and they just didn't have any after I was pretty much shown the door at that church, I learned they, the policies, they said they weren't gonna use that.I had written, they ended up using them anyways and plagiarizing and saying someone else had written them, not my biggest the biggest crime anyone's ever done against me. So I'm like, I'm happy those policies are there. so it's fine. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's just, it was kind of the, the toxicity of that environment, De'Vannon: because I was wondering.Like when I signed up the volunteering in the kids department at Lakewood, they had like a clause on their saying specifically that they did not want any homosexual serving around their children. Wow. John: That's specific. Dang, because De'Vannon: they hold a they're, they're the type of people who are like, you're either straight or a pedophile and that's wild and that's just where they're at on that.There is no spectrum for them. And so and so when you said you wrote policies to protect children, I was wondering if it was that same sort of anti LGBTQ thing? No, [00:34:00]John: no, I I've I at my most evangelical and at my most bigoted, which I, I would say I was still bigoted. I still never believed in othering.Queer people. It just never, it never got in at that indoctrination. She never sat in there. it just didn't work. My best friend she's trans and we grew up in the same church together. Same churches actually, when I switched changed churches in high school her family did as well. And so when, when sh I, I, even before she came out, like, I, I wasn't super gung-ho about being bigoted.I always thought Westboro was evil, even at my most evangelical, like, you know, that kind of vitriol hate. I never understood, but I would still say, you know, the bigoted things of like, it's not the best way to please God or some bullshit like that. But but yeah, a after she came out and I started reading [00:35:00] more I kind of took the opinion.I was like, even if it is a sin, which I probably did still think it was. I just was like, it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. like, I, and it's also someone else's business and it probably didn't help at the time that I had my own hatred towards my own sexuality. You know, even just like masturbating felt like, you know, very shameful to me.So I probably thought it was all garbage. So like who cares which is not necessarily the health healthiest mindset. So no, by the time I was, I was writing church policy. I was not I was not like, yeah. And make sure they're not gay, that, that wasn't in my head at all.Hallelujah. De'Vannon: Tabernacle and praise. What, what for you, do you feel like is the deepest, the deepest [00:36:00] religious or church trauma that you received from your time? I agree with you. It really, really sucks when you've served at a church for a while and you have this history and stuff like that, and it all gets discarded right along with you, because in their opinion, you have fallen from grace.You've done any, you know, you've, you've, you know, none of it, none of it matters. You know, the years that I was at Lakewood and the, the 10, the 10, 12 hours you know, the 10 to 12 hours that I was there every week and stuff like that, you know, it's all great. And we can't replace you. We can't do it without you, until they find the blemish.Then suddenly, you know what, we have a new person coming in today and your services are like, you know, no longer need you're fired from everything. Goodbye. Unless of course you do our conversion therapy package. For me it felt like a [00:37:00] bad breakup. It can, yeah, terrible breakup and It was like the end of a relationship.And, and that is my deepest church or religious trauma that I have ever experienced anywhere. So I'm wondering what it is for you. John: Yeah, it's really hard to rank trauma because it all kind of compounds and turns into the same, cuz you know, even if it's not religious trauma, even if it's any kind of trauma, typically you're going to experience similar kinds of trauma throughout your life.Just based on your personality type, your ways of thinking, how you develop as a child, those kind of factors. So it's hard for me to just like pick a, like a silo, like, oh, this one is the, is the kick. I like to talk about my first one, which is it's a very first chapter in my book. I talk about [00:38:00] being I had written a letter to the pastor and elders at 16 years old at the church I was attending. And I I felt that they were not treating the, the youth, the young, young adults and teenagers very well at that church. They weren't being very respectful towards youth and they had different problematic teachings that I was identifying at 16 years old.And so when I'd written this letter, they said, well, let's talk about it. And so they called me into the church into this horrible, like boardroom meeting. And it really did, like, I don't know if you ever watched the apprentice I did. And like that kind of boardroom, it was just very daunting.And they, they, it was three, the three elders I knew the best. And my parents and I and [00:39:00] I actually asked to do it alone. I was like, this is my deal. I wrote the letter. My parents don't need to be here. And so my parents asked if they'd be comfortable with that. So so they asked, they asked my parents, if it was okay, if I faced them alone, they said, yes. And They just ripped into me for like two to three hours. They called my long hair sinful. That was the big, the big thing I took with me, which is why to this day I still have long hair.And they, you know, said the way we dressed was like the world. They said we hugged the female youth too long, me and my, my best friend and just all this crazy stuff. And it was the first time. And, and what was so crazy about it? They were using scripture so wrongly to justify all their shitty opinions, like clearly like no sane person knowing the context or what the [00:40:00] verses even said themselves would use it.There's that verse that says, let no one despise you for your youth. They use that to say, and that means you shouldn't be worthy of SPR of despise. like, it literally communicates the opposite of that. And so that was the first moment. So I think. I obviously experienced in my opinion, probably worse trauma later related to churches.But I think that was of the aha moment of, oh, even if I'm gonna remain a Christian, I really need to pay attention to what they're actually saying and why they're saying it. So that's the one that sticks with me and probably is responsible for some of my current trust issues. My current anxieties that kind of thing.De'Vannon: It's funny to me how, when it's convenient, these preachers wanna be like, Hey, don't be like the world. Don't, don't fuck with be Zub, you know, and don't [00:41:00] do all that. But when it comes time, you know, time for something that is going to to benefit them, Then they want to be like the world. And so I see this when it comes time to the way they structure the church business models.Yeah. When they pay out salaries and shit like that when they organize the churches behind the scenes and form them mezz like LLCs and shit like that, you know, they don't pay taxes and stuff like that. That's one of my biggest gripes against Lakewood because my friend Barry Bowen, who works with the Trinity foundation in Texas, which investigates churches and stuff like that did, did, did some digging and found out that Lakewood church only has like one actual member on file.You know, it's run by the whole, the whole family is on the board. It's just a bunch of, EENs making all the decisions, but, you know, Which is a very like worldwide thing, you know, there's no voting happening. There's no [00:42:00] congregation, no involvement in decisions and stuff like that. So on the one hand, it's like, Hey, you all are a member, but not really.you know, it's just like in word indeed. So we're gonna pay everyone at church corporate salaries, like the world, we're gonna go business model, like the world, we in a structure, our goddamn sermons, like the motherfucking world, but we don't want y'all to hug too much cuz that would be too worldly and don't drink and for God's sake, cause don't go to a gay bar cause we can't have you looking like the world?No, can we John: yeah. Well and, and again, no notice that pattern. Who can look like the world and who can't, the leaders can look like the world, the followers cannot. The leaders, the, the same rules do not apply to both leaders and followers in church. And what's funny is they would teach with, with their words.They would say, because leaders are held to a higher standard, but time and time. And again, we find they're held to a much lower standard than [00:43:00] followers are. De'Vannon: These are the hypocrites that Jesus warned us about. John: Yeah, Jesus doesn't seem like he was that big of a fan of religious leaders. So no, De'Vannon: he really wasn't though.And, and I wanna give a shout out to my homeboy, Steven, from the book of acts who also threw all the shade at the religious leaders too. He got his ass stoned for it, but you know what? A great honor that Jesus stood up from his position, seated at the right hand of God to receive him at his death. So I'm hashtag team Steven all the way.Fuck the preachers. Fuck the Pope. Fuck every goddamn damn body, but yay God. And so, so I'm gonna switch gears now to your, particularly to your podcast up until now. We just kind of like been talking yeah. About you. So your podcast are called Christianity. I wanna read just some of the titles. I think the titles are just like really titillating [00:44:00] mm-hmm Conversion therapy, Catholicism and Protestant Protestantism.There's so much history between Catholicism and protest Protestantism because my friend Jeffrey Crans runs a website called overview bible.com and he get, he has these really colorful pictures that breaks down like the Bible and shit like that, and is really super fantastic. And I cannot wait to have them on my show, but, you know, from him, I learned, you know, originally like the Catholics had like said like 73 books of the Bible and the Protestants had like 66 and it was like this whole thing and shit like that.And I really don't like the Catholic church. Let's see mental health too narcissism marketing divorce, faith versus works afterlife. And then religious freedom, which is one that I pulled a few questions from. Okay. So [00:45:00] So you talk about like what, what, what, what we've been lied to about. And I was happy to listen to your podcast and hear your own words, echo some of my greatest gripes bitches, moans legitimate complaints against the church.And I don't know if they all meant well, if they were just trying to give us their versions of the truth. So they didn't trust us to make up our own damn minds. But I think about how, like when I was raised and they told me don't drink any alcohol at all, because it's all terrible and bad, don't do any drugs at all because they're all terrible and bad.Don't masturbate. Don't look at porn, don't dance, secular music. Don't go to the bar. And as I've gotten older, now, I realize there's actually therapeutic uses for drugs. And the Lord said not to get drunk, but not to have it, you know, not to not have any of it at all. So if you lied about this, then now I don't trust anything else you have to say.Mm-hmm . And so what do you think about that? John: Yeah, well, alcohol is the drug I have the most experience with. So [00:46:00] you know, and so Christianity, especially the American variety has a really strange relationship with alcohol. There's certainly like subcultures kind of like Baptist are, are the ones that come to mind that take a very anti alcohol stance which is odd since if what's reported about Jesus is to be believed.He definitely drank and enabled people to drink. So it's weird to be a complete tea total, but I would also guess that among Christian cultures, alcohol's probably the most abused drug among them because they're, it's not seen as taboo in the us as some of the other drugs. So, so either way, in my opinion, with alcohol, it's kind of one of those things where if they're prohibiting it it's for the sake of their control, if they're abusing it, it's for the sake of control or containment or coping with [00:47:00]what they're dealing with, you know, so to me, it, it always will just go back to the controlling containment and conversion.So yeah, as far as like how they present that and lie and, and make it, you know, either add rules that aren't present in, in scripture or early Christianity. So my perspective probably goes like this, I think. I think Jesus was the first to reduce a lot of rules. And then ever since him, every Christian has added rules, I think Paul added rules, I think actually most of the apostles added rules personally.I think that a lot of the early church was trying to figure out what it was like to not have as many rules as the previous versions of Judaism. I think that Constantine made all these religious rules now have a relationship with [00:48:00] the, the state and with governments, you know, I think after the east west schism, there were, you.At the, the east Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church had arguments about how you interpreted the nice creed and, and created more rules out of one creed. I mean, it just, it, it snowballs to the point where you're in the United States and your average church is just going to say things that are, that don't have a source in the Bible that don't have a source in historical understandings of Judaism that don't have historical understandings of what's reported about Jesus.So the lies, whether they're intentional or not don't really matter. It's just, it's so distant. It's hard to even comprehend or trust much of any of it, in my opinion. Mm-hmm De'Vannon: and you were saying like on this particular episode about religious freedoms, how [00:49:00] you feel like the religious freedoms most often protect.Like already established religions. Yeah. As opposed to individual people's religious freedoms. And you give a really nice history of how there used to be all these Christian mandates at different states. And they used to have to recite belief in the Trinity or stuff like that. I think like in Massachusetts.So speak to us about how the religious freedom in this country is really more for organized religion and not John: the person. Well, it's, it's, it's not very much freedom or religion, right? Like it's, , it's it's it's politics more or less. I mean, freedom. The word freedom means very little in Christianity across the board.In my opinion, I the only freedom that I ever resonated with was this idea of freedom in Christ. And now looking back, I'm not sure how much I even resonated with that idea. There's this whole problem of free will of like, does God control everything or are we. Just kind of robots following a script [00:50:00] or are we just doing whatever we want and God judges us based on it.I mean, it's, it's very confusing when you start getting into the idea of freedom and Christianity specifically, but true religious freedom would look like I can practice my religion in any way that doesn't harm others or myself. That's, that's pretty simple. I don't know what that has to do with abortion.I don't know what that has to do with marriage. I don't, I, I don't understand what the disconnect is there. From a rational perspective, I really didn't understand it that much when I was a Christian, even when I thought that gay marriage was sinful, whatever, I thought that meant, I thought it should be legal, cuz it didn't make any sense.Right? It's like, well, marriage is a legal process in the country. It's it's the same word. Clearly means something different to Christians than it does to non-Christian. So why should we be regulating what other people do? Again, that, that [00:51:00] controlling that cult-like mentality of thing, everyone needs to do it our way or get out.That's present in this, this idea of religious freedom which really, again, it's just a, it's just, , it's just a lie. I mean, it, it really just means Christian exceptionalism. I mean, that's probably the, the best term for what it's actually describing De'Vannon: hall, tabernacle and praise. And you also were saying like how the religious rules, the people, and now this is all.White men making up all these rules and shit like that. One of my biggest gripes is that when all this shit was done, when king James, who, according to the book of queer documentary on the discovery channel king, James himself, the author of the king James Bible was a big old queer honey, if you haven't seen it, you need to watch it.You know, all these people, these are all just like white homies. [00:52:00] They didn't have women at the table. They didn't have indigenous people at the table. They didn't have other racists. And certainly not black people, not in this country. We were only three fourths of a person for fuck's sake, you know, for so long, they didn't give a shit about what any of us had to say.And so, so it is impossible that the Bible was interpreted, translated and put together and all of this with everybody in mind, this was written white perspective, you know, Sounds about white. Let me see here. Mm-hmm so, so you said that, you know, religious, the religious rules were designed though by some white man who had some God sense because not every white, white boy is a fucking fool.You actually have some John: good one. We mostly are though. just to be very clear. We're mostly fools. I was gonna say De'Vannon: it. And so if you were saying like the, the few good white men actually put these religious rules in place to protect the church from hurting people, you were saying really didn't originate from within the church.The church had their own way. They would've spun out all [00:53:00] Willy nilly. So talk about how the, the rules are really designed to, to, to stop the church from becoming a monster, even though it did anyway. John: Yes. You're talking about some of the founding fathers at the beginning of the, yeah, so, so the, so first of all, not only were they white guys, they were white young guys, the worst kind you know, at the, at the founding of our country and like.It's there's there was so much religious tension at the founding of our, you almost never hear this, but like it's, you don't have to look far. You can just read what these guys wrote. They like, some of them thought Christianity was the worst thing that has ever happened in history and wrote explicitly saying that, I mean, I'm paraphrasing slightly.I might be paraphrasing in a nicer way than what they were saying. And then there were some who thought it should be a theocracy straight. Puritans very much had this mentality that we just need to be [00:54:00] completely different from the church of England. That's what we need to be. Then you had you know, like you had clashing of cultures at the beginning that state to state the religious culture was different in the original 13 colonies.You know, the north was much more well, I'll start with the south. The south was much more like Calvinist and like formal. The, the middle colonies had much more of this kind of quakes, like approach to spirituality. And then the north was creating something new entirely. I mean, it was, we've always been divided.There's never been like a Christian nationalist foundation. There's never been a Christian nation in that sense. And there's also never been like a completely anti-religion vein through what was written. History's complicated. and sometimes we're just too dumb or too lazy to actually take a look and read about all the different things that are going on in an era and just read what the winners said.And that's really [00:55:00] irresponsible in my opinion. So yes, there were some rules that were trying to protect people. The first amendment was supposed, was never supposed to be. Churches can do whatever they want. It was always supposed to be we'll keep the church under the law. As long as the church understands, they are not above the law, they can do whatever they want.That was what the first amendment was supposed to be. Now it means churches are above the law. They can have those tax exemptions. They can abuse people and deal with it internally, unlike businesses or other organizations, they can exempt themselves from title IX stuff, which is what protects people from being sexually abused on college campuses.They can exempt themselves from that. This is the kind of craziness we're dealing with now. And you can only do that if you're master manipulators, who are the, the largest cult that's ever existed, goddamn. De'Vannon: Okay. [00:56:00] So John: In my opinion, I should always say that just after everything, say De'Vannon: child, it is what it is.You know, I pray for people to take their own look at stuff. And it's hard cause you know, people are raised as kids into this cult, you know? And so trying to unwind, fuck somebody, you know, as bad as it is. I thank God for all of the knowledge that's also available. Yeah. Because it's not like you have to go dig up a, a thick ass concordance.Like what I had when I was in, you know, learning and shit, right. That you can like Google shit. You can watch documentaries. You can listen to podcasts. There's so many books about the fuckery of the church. And so a person is only going to stay ignorant if they kinda wanna stay ignorant in this day time.So it's like the worst it gets. I feel like God is also still giving us a way out of it or a reprieve, you know, to some people. John: Yeah. Well, I, I agree. I would say the unfortunate thing about the information age. It is great. It is great that you can [00:57:00] access. I, I I'm partial to books. I think articles are fine, but really to get to know history, especially read a whole book.But I will say what's unfortunate about that is as equal to the truth as we have in the information age, just as much propaganda is out there and Christians are propaganda making machines. They've been doing it for a long time. They're better at it than anybody. So I, I want to hope, oh, with all this information, a kid who's struggling with church will be able to, you know, watch a TikTok video, go down an internet rabbit hole and find out all this good stuff.The problem is they can also go down a rabbit hole and become a school shooter. They can go down a rabbit hole and become a Christian nationalist just as easy. So that's quite frightening to me.So true. So true. De'Vannon: Well, well, people better get close to God and gain spiritual understanding, you know? Yeah. That way you can have some discernment about what it is that's [00:58:00] being presented to you and be able to detect whether or not it's good or bad. John: Discernment's very important spiritual or not, but yes, having a discerning mind and, and I'm not anti spiritual personally.So I think there's definitely a a route that, of spirituality that can be very positive and good for both your own soul and for other people.De'Vannon: Should I throw a touch of shade? Do it. I'm just going to say, say, and I'm talking about Paula white mm-hmm and again, Jolo thing just because why not? I just think it's really, really fucked up when as separated church and state is supposed to be, you see people like Paul White.Hanging out with Donald Trump, you know, of course he was surrounded by evangelicals anyway. And I just, I really, it just really bugs me. You know, I got kicked out of Lakewood for hanging out in S in the gay district, you know, when I wasn't at church. And then Joe [00:59:00] Osen was on stage with Kanye west, you know, who is the last time I checked.Isn't exactly like, you want your kids to grow up and be like that guy, you know, John: he went off the rails. Holy cow. Which time . Yeah, exactly. De'Vannon: do you mean when he was on stage with Joel or some? Just in general. John: Oh, he is just author. Yeah. I mean, just post-Trump era, just post Trump, era Kanye. I mean, he's always been a little bit narcissistic and crazy, but like, man, he really took it to 11 after, after that.And De'Vannon: so it just, it just baffles me, but I guess it doesn't. We don't really know these preachers. We just know the face that put on. When they're in front of the camera, we don't really know them motherfuckers, you know, for you to think that it is a high moral ground to break bread with Kanye west on stage.You know, [01:00:00] I don't get that, you know, and then to be like, Donald Trump is the greatest person. He's the savior of God he's sent, I don't get this. So John: yeah. Unfortunately I feel like I do get it. I feel like it fits perfectly only because from my understanding of the development of Christianity it narcissists are rewarded.I mean, that's just what it does. It rewards an narcissism. And so yes, I, I think it's very sad and upsetting when yeah. Jesus who might have been, I'm really gonna say something controversial. Jesus, who was probably queer himself. Would've definitely Spent more time with, in a, in a gay community than he would've with a, a president.I mean that, I think that's a it's it would be crazy to characterize Jesus any other way. That De'Vannon: do be facts though, because when he was here, he did hang [01:01:00] out with the unpopular people. You know, it was him who defended the, the town who, you know, with him hanging out the John: ma the majority of Christians, even after Jesus died for the first hundred years, war prostitutes, criminals and tax collectors, the outcast of society, those for the first hundred years.And, and probably a little bit after that, but definitely those first a hundred that's who wanted to be Christians, there was a version of Judaism that now accepted those people. Whereas before there was a version of Judaism that would never accept those kinds of people.De'Vannon: So you're saying you believe like Paula white, Joel Ostein, and a lot of these religious people are straight up narcissists. John: Well, you have to be to being right. I mean, to, to do, to have the kind of image they do. I mean, I find, I have to fight narcissism with a small podcast, right? Like, I can't imagine having that many people looking at you.You said something earlier where you said we, we see these preachers, but we [01:02:00] don't really know who they are. I don't think they know who they are because the the religion messes with your head when I was just preaching to a youth group or getting paid to, you know, go across state lines to give a sermon or whatever.I, I didn't have time for introspection. I was a narcissist as much as anyone. It's part of why I was such a bad husband. I, I, you get in your head about these things automatically. It's a, it's a toxic system from the top down and no one is exempt from the, the horrible mindsets it can instill in you. De'Vannon: Give me more of this.Give me an example of a narcissistic thought, a narcissistic thing that you did than you feel like is common among preachers. John: Well, yeah, it's hard for, it's harder to think. It's not like a thought it's like your, okay, so this is gonna, might be long winded. So I apologize if it [01:03:00] is. If you narcissism is primarily bred when it's not like an actual mental disorder, but when it comes about later in life, it's primarily bred from an apathetic mindset, meaning you don't care about anything when you don't care about anything.The only thing that grounds you to reality is yourself. That's it. That's all you've got because you have to live in your body. You have to wake up, you have to go to sleep, you have to eat, you have to do these things. So the only real reality is yourself. So. It rather than having thoughts people treat the word narcissism, like it just means like abusing people or something.Narcissism is unfortunately way deeper rooted than that. It's an inability to get outside yourself in the way it ends up coming out in a more so sociopathic way, meaning you don't care about right or wrong, you [01:04:00] end up just living your life, devoid of taking into account other people's feelings. So for me, one of the biggest regrets of my life is how, when I was married, I just did not give a shit about my spouse's feelings.I just didn't care. My feelings mattered more than theirs. It wasn't like a conscious decision where I was like, woke up and was like, well, what I want matters and what they want. Doesn't that wasn't my mentality. It was bred in, it was a state of mind where I would want to do something that they, and they would want to do something else.And I won because I cared more about what I wanted to do than what they wanted to do. It applies in church culture, too. Pastors, you see it all the time as a pastoral intern, I, I had another pastoral intern with me. We had a great, I idea for a homeless ministry that would've been so great. It was basically like make a little, I, I lived in Spokane Washington at the time, huge homeless community.I was like, [01:05:00] why don't we make little kits? Like just, you know, protein bars, socks, like, you know, just, just something to lift their day. We can get the whole church together to put the together these boxes and then distribute them. Then we're meeting people and we're serving people and it's great. And everyone's involved and it's cool.The pastor was resistant to it for bullshit reasons. What size socks is would we get, would we be competing with other homeless ministries in the area? What are we talking about? at this point? And so it ended up not coming to fruition because I think two things, one, I think he thought his thoughts were more valuable than ours.And two, I think he was scared because if I'm able to do ministry better than he is, that's a threat, you know? And, and, and I don't think he was like the most narcissistic person I've ever met in my life. I just think it's bred into the culture. A preacher is gonna be either De'Vannon: really, really, really strong or really, [01:06:00] really, really, really weak mm-hmm okay.And that's just the way it is that the problem is you can't just look at them and tell on which side of the fence they're falling. Right. You will rarely ever hear a preacher say, they're sorry. About anything. John: And when they, without a million caveats, at least at least a De'Vannon: million, and when they change their, I hear them say some shit like this.When they, when they find out they've been wrong about something, they'll say like a, I don't preach that the way I used to, or my, my thinking is evolving. So basically bitch, you're saying you were wrong. And then, so you're not gonna apologize to the people who you misinformed for the past years before your mind changed.Nope. John: Well, and even if they do, this is where the narcissism comes in. Even if there's apology, the apology, isn't about the people hurt. The apology is about them and their growth. And you know how, oh, I, you know, when I was a young preacher, when I was preaching at 24, I was wrong about this, this and this, but now listen to how great I am.Like you're saying, who cares about all those people? He hurt [01:07:00] it's about him or, or she now be progressive there's evil women pastors now too. Gotta be, gotta be progressive progress at that. De'Vannon: Yeah, you're right. They have a lot of eye statements and stuff like that, and they don't care. And, and it's in the book of Jeremiah, I think 21 where the Lord has a gripe against these preachers who, who scatter his sheep and is flock and they don't turn around and go and look for them.And you know, all of us who've been kicked out discarded and everything like that. Like when I got kicked out, no one called no one wrote, no one did anything. Right. You know, I don't know if I was just classified as a heretic and just, just gone. But I mean, the PA the priest, the priest was supposed to put a concerted effort into getting anybody who they lose instead of just charging along trucking along and just writing more books and selling out more arenas and filling, you know, getting more money, you know, you know, fuck a next book, bitch.You lost a member. You're supposed to stop everything to go and find them. [01:08:00]John: Yeah, that that mentality has honestly never been a as, as long as churches have existed. That's never been the attitude of church leadership. Even if it was supposedly commanded by Jesus it's it's, it's never been present in history.Oh, well, De'Vannon: shit. So then the last thing that we're going to talk about and we're gonna have to have you back on and really dig into your book. Mm-hmm ca

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What you'll learn in this episode:   Why we often have more information about gold than any other decorative object The difference between material culture and material studies, and how these fields shaped the study of art and jewelry What John wants visitors to take away from “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory and Power” Why history is much more global than we may think What it really means to curate, and why it's an essential job   About John Stuart Gordon   John Stuart Gordon is the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. He grew up among the redwoods of Northern California before venturing East and receiving a B.A. from Vassar College, an M.A. from the Bard Graduate Center for Studies in the Decorative Arts, Design, and Culture, and a PH.D. from Boston University. He works on all aspects of American design and has written on glass, American modernism, studio ceramics, and postmodernism. His exhibition projects have explored postwar American architecture, turned wood, and industrial design. In addition, he supervises the Furniture Study, the Gallery's expansive study collection of American furniture and wooden objects. Additional Resources: Yale University Art Gallery Website Yale University Art Gallery Instagram John Stuart Gordon Instagram Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   Perhaps more than any other metal or gem, gold brings out strong reactions in people (and has for all of recorded history). That's what curator John Stuart Gordon wanted to explore with “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power,” a featured exhibition now on view at the Yale University Art Gallery. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why people have always been enchanted by gold; what he discovered while creating the exhibit; and why curation is more that just selecting a group of objects. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is John Stuart Gordon, the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. Welcome back.    I'm curious; I know you recently had a group from Christie's studying jewelry that came to visit your exhibit. I'm curious if they asked different questions, or if there's something that stood out in what they were asking that might have been different from a group studying something else.    John: Every group is different. I love them all, and I learn so much from taking groups of visitors through because you start looking at objects through their lens. Recently a group of makers came through and, wow, that was a wonderful experience, because I could make a reference to, “Oh, look at the decoration on this,” and then, “Is it chaste or is it gadroon?” “What kind of anvil are they working with?” We have to answer these questions. There are some things I can't answer but a maker can identify easily, so I'm learning things.    Maybe someone who's a collector or an appraiser is thinking about objects in a very different way, wanting to know how rare it is, if there are only a handful, where they are, how many are still in private collections, what's in the museum collection. One of my favorite tours was with a small group of young children who had a completely different set of preconceived notions. I had to explain what an 18th century whistle and bells would have been used for because they'd never seen one before. I had to talk about what kinds of child's toys they remembered from when they were kids, trying to relate. Every group has a slightly different lens, and you can never anticipate the questions they're going to ask.   Sharon: Yes, they're coming at you from the weirdest angles. In putting this together, what surprised you most about gold in America? What surprised you most about putting this exhibit together? What made you say, “Gosh, I never knew that,” or “I never thought about that”? There's a lot, but what's the overriding question, let's say.    John: It's such a nerdy answer, and I apologize for being such a nerd, but what surprised me the most was an archival discovery. Mind you, this all takes place against the background of lockdown and having way too much time on our hands and looking for distractions. I pulled a historical newspaper database that the library subscribes to, and I typed in the word “gold” and pushed enter. There were about three million responses that came back, and I just started reading my way through. Not all of them were interesting, but I was struck by the frequency with which people were discussing gold, and I was struck by the global knowledge at a very early period. I would find articles written in the 1720s in colonial Boston talking about the Spanish fleets leaving Havana Harbor with amounts of silver and gold onboard. They would describe how much gold, how much silver, was it coins, was it bars, was it unrefined. There was a newspaper report coming out of New York in the 1750s talking about a new gold strike at a mine in Central Europe. That was truly unexpected: to realize that this material was of such importance that people were talking about it on a daily basis, and that it was newsworthy on this global scale. People weren't just talking about what was going on in colonial Boston or colonial Philadelphia. They were talking about what was going on in Prussia and Bogota. I think we often think of early history as very insular, and we think of our present day as global. History has always been global, and it was a lovely reminder of how global our culture always has been.   Sharon: That's interesting, especially talking about global. I just reread Hamilton. They're talking about Jefferson and Madison and everybody going over to France and coming back. I think about the boats, and I think, “Oh, my god.” I think of everybody as staying in place. You couldn't get me on one of those boats. What a voyage. But that was global. Everybody was communicating with everybody else. So, yes, it always has been that way, but it's very surprising, the movement that has been there for so long. We could go on and on about that.    Let me ask you this: Yale Art Gallery just received a donation from Susan Grant Lewin of modern jewelry, art jewelry, on the cutting edge. At the museum and gallery, is the emphasis more on jewelry as part of material culture and decorative arts? Not every museum or art gallery would have been open to it. What's the philosophy there?   John: Yes, we just received a gift of about two dozen pieces of contemporary jewelry from Susan Grant Lewin, who is a collector and scholar. We've also received a gift from the Enamel Arts Foundation, which is a foundation that collects and promotes enamel objects and jewelry. We have a long history of collecting jewelry, and it's based on historic collections. The core of the American decorative arts collection is the Mabel Brady Garvan Collection. It started coming to the art gallery in 1930. It's this rather storied collection. It covers everything you can imagine: furniture, glass, ceramics, textiles, you name it.    It was assembled by a man named Francis P. Garvan, who was a Yalee. He graduated in the late 19th century and he gave it in honor of his wife. His main love, after his wife and his family, was silver, and the collection at Yale is probably the most important collection of early American silver in any museum. Silversmiths and goldsmiths, the names are interchangeable, and it is mostly men at that period who were making silver objects and gold objects. They're also making jewelry. As you take the story forward, it doesn't change a lot. People who are trained as metalsmiths often will make holloware and/or jewelry. The fields are very closely allied, and the techniques are very closely allied. So for us, it makes complete sense to have this very important historical collection of metalwork go all the way up to the present.   We have a lot of 20th century jewelry, now 21st century jewelry. We also have contemporary holloware because we like being able to tell a story in a very long arc. The way someone like Paul Revere is thinking about making an object and thinking about marketing himself is related to how someone graduating from SUNY New Paltz or RISD are thinking about how to make an object and how to market themselves. Often it's the same material, the same hammers, the same anvils. So, it's nice to show those continuities and then to bring in how every generation treats this material slightly differently. They have their own ideas and their own technologies.    So, the Susan Grant Lewis Collection is a very experimental work. She has said she doesn't like stones, so you're not going to see a lot of gem setting and a lot of diamonds and rubies set in gold. There's nothing wrong with them, but she's more interested in people who are more out there, thinking about how you turn 3D printing into art or how you use found materials and construct narratives and make things that are more unexpected.   Sharon: I just want to interrupt you a minute.  SUNY New Paltz is the New York State University at New Paltz?   John: State University of New York at New Paltz. Sorry, I gave you the shorthand.   Sharon: I know RISD is the Rhode Island Institute—   John: We're going to have to submit an index on how to understand all my acronyms. Yes, RISD is the Rhode Island School of Design. There are a handful of institutions that have really strong jewelry departments and really strong metalworking departments, among them Rhode Island School of Design, State University of New York at New Paltz. You can add Cranbrook, which is outside of Detroit. There's a whole group of them that are producing wonderful things.   Sharon: So, you studied decorative arts. What was your master's in?   John: I was an art historian. I was very lucky in college to have a professor who believed in material culture, and I asked, “Do I have to write about paintings?” and she said, “No, you don't.” I was very lucky to find that in college. Then I went to the Bard Graduate Center in New York. It was a much longer title, the Graduate Center for Material Culture and Design. It changes its name every two years. My master's was in kind of a history of design and material culture. Then to get a Ph.D., there are very few programs that allow people to focus on material culture. Luckily, there are more with every passing year. When I was going to school, Yale is one that's always focused on decorative arts and material culture. Boston University, their American studies program is a historically strong program that allows you to look at anything in the world as long as you can justify it. So, that's where I went.   Sharon: Was jewelry like, “Oh yeah, and there's jewelry also,” or was jewelry part of the story, part of the material culture, the material objects that you might look at? Was it part of any of this?   John: It was. I am at core a metals person. My master's thesis was written on the 1939 New York World's Fair, looking at one pavilion where Tiffany, Cartier and a few others had their big exhibition of silver, gold and, of course, jewelry. My entry into it was silver, but I had to learn all the jewelry as well. So, jewelry has always been part of my intellectual DNA, but it didn't really flourish until I got to Yale, and that would be because of my colleague, Patricia Kane. She has a deep knowledge and interest in jewelry. We have done a few jewelry exhibitions in the past, and she has seen it as part of the collection that should grow. I arrived at Yale as a scrappy, young curator seeing what was going on in the landscape, and the jewelry is amazing. One of my first conferences I went to was a craft conference. I met jewelers and metalsmiths, and it's a really approachable group. They're very friendly. They like talking about their ideas. They like talking about their work, which is really rewarding.   Sharon: What were your ideas when you started as a curator? Did you have the idea, “Oh, I'd love to do exhibition work”? Curate has become such a word today. Everybody is curating something.   John: Yes, my head is in my hands right now. One of my pet peeves is that people talk about curating their lunches. The word curate actually means to care for, so I think about the religious role of a curate. It's the same role. Our job is really to care for collections. If you care for your lunch, you can curate it, but if you're just selecting it, please use a different word.    That idea of caring for objects, that's what really excited me as a curator; the idea that so much of what we do is getting to know a collection, to research it, to make sure it's being treated well, that things are stable when they go on loan, that when things need treatment, you work with a conservator or a scientist. I was really excited by that.    Over the course of my career, I've become much broader in my thinking. When you come out of graduate school, you've spent years focusing down deeper and deeper on one small, little subject. I was still very focused on a very narrow subject when I became a curator. That was early 20th century design. I love it dearly, but over the years my blinders have come off. I love American modernism. I also love 17th century metalwork. I love 21st century glass. You realize you love everything in the world around you.   Sharon: Would you say your definition of curate is still to care for? I'm thinking about when I polish my silver. I guess it's part of curating in a sense, taking care of things.    John: Polishing your silver or your jewelry is actually one of the best ways to get to know it. We're one of the few collections where it's the curators who polish the silver. We hold onto that task because we don't do it very often, because it's better to leave things unpolished if you don't have to. But when it comes time to polish something, the opportunity to pick something up, to turn it over, to feel the weight of it, to look closely at the marks and the details, that's a really special thing, to get to know your objects so well by doing it. I give a hearty endorsement of silver polishing. It's also a great emotional therapy if you've had a tough day. But to your question, I even more strongly believe that the role of a curator is someone to care for their collections.   Sharon: I really like that. It gives me a different perspective.   John: Yeah, because what we're doing is not just physical care; it's emotional care. In today's culture we talk so much about self-care and these kinds of tropes, but that's a lot of what we're doing. We're understanding history through our objects. We're understanding the objects better to have something preserved for posterity, so it can tell future generations stories.   Sharon: That's interesting. John, thank you so much. By the way, the exhibit ends in July, but the Susan Grant Lewin Collection is open through September. You'll be busy, it sounds like.   John: “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power” closes July 10. The Susan Grant Lewin Collection of American Jewelry will be up through the fall. If you miss both of those or you're in a place where you can't get to New Haven, our collections are all online. All you have to do is go to our website, and you can just click through and spend a day looking at objects from the comfort of your living room.   Sharon: Yes, and very nice photos. As I said, I was looking at them before we started. I was very interested. What was that used for? Where did it come from? I guess being in Los Angeles, I'll have to do that. I'll be doing that from my living room. John, thank you so much. This is very, very interesting. I learned a lot and you have given me a lot to think about, so thank you so much.   John: Thank you for having me.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why we often have more information about gold than any other decorative object The difference between material culture and material studies, and how these fields shaped the study of art and jewelry What John wants visitors to take away from “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory and Power” Why history is much more global than we may think What it really means to curate, and why it's an essential job   About John Stuart Gordon   John Stuart Gordon is the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. He grew up among the redwoods of Northern California before venturing East and receiving a B.A. from Vassar College, an M.A. from the Bard Graduate Center for Studies in the Decorative Arts, Design, and Culture, and a PH.D. from Boston University. He works on all aspects of American design and has written on glass, American modernism, studio ceramics, and postmodernism. His exhibition projects have explored postwar American architecture, turned wood, and industrial design. In addition, he supervises the Furniture Study, the Gallery's expansive study collection of American furniture and wooden objects. Additional Resources: Yale University Art Gallery Website Yale University Art Gallery Instagram John Stuart Gordon Instagram Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   Perhaps more than any other metal or gem, gold brings out strong reactions in people (and has for all of recorded history). That's what curator John Stuart Gordon wanted to explore with “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power,” a featured exhibition now on view at the Yale University Art Gallery. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why people have always been enchanted by gold; what he discovered while creating the exhibit; and why curation is more that just selecting a group of objects. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.    Today, my guest is John Stuart Gordon, the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. The Yale University Museum and Gallery is the oldest art museum in the western hemisphere associated with the university. John is going to be telling us today about one of the gallery's current feature exhibitions, “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power.” We'll hear all about the exhibit and John's journey today. John, welcome to the program.   John: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I apologize; my endowed title is a total mouthful.   Sharon: No, no. Who is Benjamin Attmore Hewitt?   John: Benjamin Attmore Hewitt was a clinical psychologist who helped bring the idea of statistical study to psychology, and he was also a collector. He was an avid collector of federal furniture, and he was associated with the art gallery. He, in the early 80s, was a guest curator on an exhibit on card tables that we did called “The Work of Many Hands.” In the incredibly small world department, I'm joining you from my living room, where if I turn and look out my window, I'm looking at the house that he used to live in across the street from me.   Sharon: Wow! Was that an old house that was built on federal plans or is it a modern house, the one he built or that that he has?   John: It is a beautiful, Georgian-style house. It's quite gorgeous, and you can imagine it was perfect for his federal period collection.   Sharon: It sounds gorgeous.   John: It's just one of those small-world things, right? I ended up moving across the street from person who endowed my job.   Sharon: Sounds gorgeous. So, tell us about your career path. Tell us how you ended up at the Yale University Art Gallery.   John: Yes, it was a dream job for me. I grew up in San Francisco. I grew up in a household that loved art, so I'm one of those lucky people that grew up from childhood thinking art isn't scary; art isn't strange; art is something to be enjoyed. I always knew I wanted to be in the art world somehow. I went to Vassar College in Poughkeepsie for the history of art program. When I graduated, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but my first job was at Christie's auction house, and that was an amazing experience. You see everything when you work in an auction house. It's the fabulous things that get the headlines in the paper, but it's everything else that gives you an education. That was an incredible training for my eye.    I'm a slow thinker. I like taking my time. I like spending time with objects. The constant hustle and bustle of the auction world was a little too much for me, so I went to grad school. I went to the Bard Graduate Center in New York and got my master's. Then I had an internship at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. One of my colleagues there, the curator Amelia Peck, once said that if you would like a job at one of the great collections, you need a Ph.D. So, I said, “O.K.,” and I went to Boston University for a Ph.D. in American Studies.    The whole time I was thinking, “I want to get a Ph.D. so I can get a job at a place like the Yale University Art Gallery,” because its collection is legendary. It was the collection that so many of my professors used when they were teaching their survey courses. It was a collection I knew, and it was my aspirational job. One day while I was studying for my orals, my college professor called me and said, “A job has opened up at the Yale University Art Gallery. You need to apply for it.” Being a grad student, I was like, “Oh, I'm a little busy right now. Maybe next week,” and she was like, “John, don't be stupid. These jobs don't come up very often. You really need to apply.” I was very lucky. I got the job. That was 15 years ago, and I have been there ever since.   The collection is extraordinary. The museum was founded in 1832. It was one of the oldest museums in the country. Its American decorative arts collection formed very early on but really got going in 1930, so it's also a very old collection. In the 1970s, one of the former curators, Charles Montgomery, felt it needed to go clear up to the present. So, our collection really spans centuries, and with that kind of span, you never get tired.    Sharon: It does. I was looking at your exhibit of gold online and I'm going, “Oh my god, this is going back.” I was looking at the gold collar you have and I thought, “This is really old.” What was that? The 3rd or 5th century or something like that? I can't even remember.   John: The museum's collections are encyclopedic. It goes from ancient Babylon up to the present day. Luckily, my slice of it is just the American, which is enough of a handful. There are two of us in our department, Patricia Kane and myself, and between the two of us, we need to cover pre-contact to the present in every medium. So, it's enough to make your head spin some days.   Sharon: What is it about the decorative arts that attracted you as opposed to another area of history that you could also go into museums for?   John: That's a great question. I loved the idea that decorative arts are like a lens into our world. Everything we make and own is a lens, but decorative arts have a way of telling you stories about the way we used the technology that went into making them, what a particular culture or a time period found important, as you make objects to fulfill needs and to fulfill aspirations. I loved the idea that you could take anything from a necklace or a teapot or a chair, and if you look at it enough ways, you could know a lot about the goals and dreams and technologies and resources of a given time period. I loved that idea, reverse-engineering culture through objects.   Sharon: That's interesting, yes. How did the gold exhibit come about? Was that something you and Patricia had been thinking about, or was that a directive from on high? How did that come about?   John: The gold exhibition came about because of the pandemic, to be completely honest. Two years ago, the museum closed down, like many museums did at the beginning of the pandemic, and our exhibition calendar went out the window. Loans were cancelled, exhibitions were cancelled, and the director of the Yale University Art Gallery, Stephanie Wiles, put out a call for in-house exhibitions, exhibitions we could work on in our spare time. We didn't know how long this was going to last. We thought we were going be home for a few weeks, and she wanted exhibitions that would be easy to slot into the calendar when the museum reopened and that would really shine a light on our collections, because those would be easier for the curators to research.    When I arrived at Yale in 2006, sitting on the shelf above my desk was a slim, little catalogue to an exhibition called “American Gold” that was done in 1963. I loved that little catalogue. I read it many times. I loved the material. Much of the material was drawn from Yale's collections because Yale has one of the strongest collections of early American gold. I thought, “Someday, maybe I'll revisit this.” It seemed amazing that no one had revisited this idea of gold since the 1960s because so much had changed about we think about the world, how we think about objects, what kind of theoretical models we use, and I thought I would do that exhibition at some point in the distant future. Then when our director said, “Are there are any ideas out there?” I said, “O.K., maybe I could do this now.” I suggested it, and it was a real treat. So, it was something that grew out of a spontaneous need but became a wonderful, wonderful research project.   Sharon: So, the objects for the most part are taken from your collection as opposed to loans, O.K. Tell us about the exhibit “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power.” Tell us more about the whole exhibit. What do you want people to learn from it?   John: I was fascinated by the idea that gold is so compelling and so entrancing. There is something about this material that has been fascinating to humans for millennia. You think about the Egyptian pharaohs with their coffins covered in gold. Gold is the reason for so many wars and invasions, and all this is a sign of status. What is it about this material that has so much weight? I started talking to many of my colleagues, asking about the gold in their department, and we realized we could do a global show. It could be gigantic. It started getting away from me, and I realized, “O.K., let's just focus on one very narrow portion of this global story. We'll just focus on colonial American experience.”    As I started looking at those objects, I was struck by something rather uncanny. In the history of decorative arts, most objects are anonymous. We don't know who made them. We don't know who owned them. We don't know how they traveled through time. With metalwork, we do tend to know a bit more because there are makers' marks. There's a whole history of guild systems that are looking at the purity of metals, and with gold we know even more information. I think probably more than almost any other material, we know who made gold objects and who owned them, and it's because they often are inscribed or engraved somehow, or family histories come down with them. I found that so fascinating. That became the structure for the show, really thinking about these objects that have histories and why they were owned, why they were made, why they were cherished, thinking about this important material and how it intersects with human life over the span of a few centuries. That's what I want visitors to take away.    Most people think—well, we can actually do this right now. Sharon and everyone listening, just to yourself, think of three words that come to mind immediately when I say gold. Free associate. What are those words that come to mind? Sharon, I'm going to put you on the spot. What three words come to mind?   Sharon: It's like a blue elephant. What do I think? Shiny, valuable and decorative. In terms of jewelry, I think decorative. Those are the words that come to mind.   John: Shiny, valuable, decorative. I asked this question of a lot of people. Everyone I met for a while got that question, and value came up a lot. Then there were a lot of judgment terms, things like beauty or tacky. They were either positive or negative terms. People have an emotional, visceral reaction to gold. What I want people who visit the show to do is to move beyond those initial associations. We're drawn to it because it's valuable and we think it's beautiful, or we're skeptical of it because we think it might be gaudy. But I want them to really look at the objects and learn why someone might own something or why someone might want an object made out of this material. It's to move beyond those initial words into words about legacy and heritage or patriotism or pride, to get to that second layer. It's to let people know O.K., I'm going to think twice about what a gold ring might symbolize because I've looked at a gold ring that was all about mourning and commemorating the dead, or I've looked at something like a gold spoon that seemed a little flashy, but we know it was made by a Huguenot craftsman escaping religious persecution in New York, yet it was owned by someone who made their money selling slaves. Ideas of freedom and persecution are wrapped up in this material. There are so many stories that, once you start asking the objects, the stories come back to you in a way that I hope makes people pause when they leave the museum and see something else in their life. “Oh, that's an interesting idea.”   Sharon: I think what strikes me is the fact that when you're talking about gold, artistry, memory and power over the years, the wars that have been fought, I think of the Aztecs and Incas, where it was so cherished. We talked a little about this. Material culture, material studies. You'll have to explain the difference. That sounds like something I didn't grow up hearing. Maybe because you're in that world, it's something you've heard about for a long time. But what is material culture and material studies, and how does it relate to this?   John: That is such a big question. I'll try to do some honor to it. The idea of material culture as an academic field—and I'm sorry; I have to put on my dorky academic for a second—but the idea of material culture really came out in the 1960s and 1970s with this larger idea of a new history, a way of looking at the reinterpretation of historical sources, historical stories, questioning who has the right to tell history. It was a way to get away from just looking at the histories of wars and rulers, documenting dead white men written by more dead white men. Material culture is a way of looking holistically at the objects that are produced by a civilization and thinking about the everyday person or the person not on the throne. What can be learned from the things that are not just the dates of rules and wars? That field really transformed art history, history, American studies, anthropology, archaeology. It opened up various fields of study so that you could write an entire book about the development of the Coke bottle and have a valid historical discussion about everyday objects.    What's been fascinating—I grew up in this world. To me, material culture is my language. I grew up being taught by people who were on the front wave of this, so I'm totally indoctrinated. In recent years, I've seen a subfield emerge just called material studies. It makes chuckle a bit because it's like material culture with the culture taken out, which is probably not true, but it's really just going into the actual “thinginess” of objects: thinking about the marble that a statue was carved from, or thinking about the wood used to make a chair and diving deep into this elemental level of what the material of our world is, where it comes from and what stories it tells.    In terms of gold, your mentioning the Incas is, I think, a rather important reference, because where was the gold coming from? If we take an Inca material studies approach to this, we think about how, for many years, the Mediterranean in Europe, they weren't reusing and melting down and recycling the gold that was coming out of a very limited number of mines. Then suddenly, the Spanish discover or stumble across the New World, and they see these cities with temples filled with gold and palaces filled with gold, and they start looting them. As the conquistadors are conquering Central and South America, they're stripping the gold out, and then that gold is being melted down and being sent back to Europe. What does it mean to have this material that's so inherently fraught with conflict?    What does it mean for a silversmith in Boston in the 18th century? He's sitting on the edge of an empire working a small amount of gold that's incredibly valuable because he has to get it from London. He's aware that the Spanish have all this access to gold through the New World, and it's circulating around him. Then how does all of this change when gold is discovered at Sutter's Mill in California in 1849, and suddenly there's a whole new and incredibly large source of gold? It's augmented by further strikes in Colorado, and the West begins creating more gold. Think about this material, how its rarity is tied to conquest and imperial control.   There are some scientists who have been thinking, “Can we do tests on material to find out if there are little isotopes in the metal that can tell you whether the ring you're wearing today is gold that was from Northern California or from Afghanistan? Can we begin to map out the world and map out trade routes all based on scientific inquiry and matching scientific testing with archival research?” Your very quick dive into material culture versus material studies, it's endlessly fascinating.   Sharon: I know people get their doctorates in material studies around things like that. I should have asked you this at the beginning. Did you consider yourself an artist when you grew up with all this art? Before art history, were you creative? Were your parents in the creative end of the arts or were they teaching?   John: Being an artist was option number one, and I pursued that. Making art was a really important part of my childhood and developing a sense of identity. Then I learned about art history. I just loved art history, and I had to make that decision: would I go to art school or would I go to a liberal arts college? For me, art history won. I loved being able to parse out these stories and to look at objects and paintings and sculptures and think about all the different references. But having that history of making, I think, is very important. I have a lot of empathy for the skill and the creativity that goes into making.

When we listen to a missionary it often causes us to reflect. Does my life have a larger meaning like there's? Do I see God at work as they do? Listen in to today's show where we hear the story of a couple who changed the trajectory of their lives by leaving the business world to become missionaries. Why this topic at this time? Today's episode is in response to a podcast listener by the name of Patty who said she'd like to hear more interviews with missionaries. I can see why. They are some of the most interesting people around. To talk with a missionary is almost always an interesting conversation. And more than interesting, whenever we truly hear the story of another person, whether they're a missionary or not, it can't help but cause us to reflect upon our own story. For today's show, I interviewed two of my friends, Billy and Laura Borkenhagen, to learn from them and their life-changing missionary story. One thing that's different about today's episode is that I have a word-for-word transcript of my interview in the show notes. It was done using AI - artificial intelligence software. I have been wanting to experiment with this for a while. And if actual transcripts are something you'd like to see more of, please let me know. Okay. Let's get on with it. Interview transcript John: So Laura and Billy, tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming missionaries. I mean, you both had pretty great careers and you left all of that to become missionaries in a camping ministry. Laura, why don't we start with you first? Laura: Sure. So yeah, Billy and I met in college and Billy became an architect and I began working in marketing. We both worked at the Kohler Company for our careers. I even traveled internationally for, a bit of time, which was really fun and fixed up a house. And I, I ran, I started my own photo business and Billy started working downtown in Milwaukee. We had three kids and life was, you know, kind of how I had it planned in my Excel spreadsheet of how I wanted my life to be. Yeah. And so we had taken our family with our three kids up to camp just to attend a winter camp and, just really had a great time. And so the next year we decided to go back and while we were there, I was reading in the dining hall. They have all the missionaries, like a little bio about each one of them and I was reading them. And at the end there was a job posting. I wasn't looking for a job, but I just, in that moment, I knew that that was my job. And that kind of just started a journey of us asking questions. And yeah, it was a bit of a story, but we, we ended up both joining as missionaries at, at Fort wilderness. And now we're here in the north woods. John: Well, tell us a little bit about what camping is at Fort wilderness and what your role is there. Laura: Sure. Fort wilderness is a camping ministry it's in Northern Wisconsin and it really aims to do, do four things. They get people out in God's creation in the outdoors just immersed, in what God's created, gives people God's word. So at all the different camps and retreats, there's always a speaker or, or way for you to hear, hear God's word. And then they use adventure programming. So things like horses and water slides and tubing Hills, and swimming and all sorts of adventure things. And then the fourth one is community. And so, so you're, you're always in Christian community. So it uses those four things and it's year round, summer, winter fall. And then there's camps for families. There are things just for youth where they get dropped off for, for a week or so there's a college age program. And then there's adult programs where it's like, just adults, like a men's retreat or women's retreat. John: So you're doing, you're doing your marketing thing, part-time from your home and Billy's still working in the Milwaukee area as an architect, correct? Laura: Yeah. That's how it started. I, I saw this job posting and I said, Hey, would you consider someone working part-time remote because I'm not moving that was my quote. And funny how, how God, every time I've said I would not do something, I feel like I've done it. John: Yeah. Laura: Yeah. So the, they were like, well, maybe like why? And I was like, well, I'm not interested in moving, but oh, I'd love to like work for Fort. And so they entertained the idea. They're like, sure, like think about it, pray about it. So I applied, I interviewed and I became the first ever remote employee. Working from the Milwaukee area while Billy was working in Milwaukee and the plan, I was willing to raise support as a missionary, but they said, well, we've never had anyone working remotely. So they offered me a six month contract where they paid me and they said at six months, if it works out, then we'll talk about raising support said, okay. So the six month mark comes and, and COVID had hit. And so I, I was not the only remote employee anymore cuz lots of people were working remote at that point. Laura: But the six month mark came and we were up at camp helping out and I was supposed to have this meeting about raising support. But before that meeting Billy's boss approached him and said, Hey,, there's really no job available, but I really need an architect. And you're married to Laura. Like, would you guys consider moving up here and, joining staff. And we were like, um maybe I'm not sure. And so the short story, they sent us home and said pray about it for the next 30 days. And we said yes, after that 30 days, cuz we really felt, felt the Lord every, there was a hundred instances where we felt like, wow, the Lord is just really showing us and opening this door. John: Yeah. And Billy, that was quite a, I mean it was big change for Laura, but, but you actually gave up a pretty great job as an architect. How did, how did that, how did God work in your life to, to do such a thing? Billy: Yeah. I really thought that I would retire at HGA cuz it was a really good firm and my opportunity to work there was pretty unique and through one of my college professors, so I had a good job and I liked it. I think the shortest way I can answer that. The short story is that by a combination of the opportunities at Fort wilderness, the special needs that they had and then some things that God was doing, not only in my life, but in Laura's life, separately, but at the same time. And each of us made it pretty clear to us that this is something that, we should step into. And that was kind of the answer to the prayer that we got. So that's the very short version of that story. I think the longer version is that God had showed me very clearly that we weren't in total control of our lives. Billy: As much as you think you are, as much as you think the way you live or the job you have or the community you're in is giving you some sense of control God had shown us in personal ways that we're actually not in control. And so that put our minds in a place where I think we were willing to consider leaving all of the stuff that we've built up over the years and taking a risk of stepping in, into sort of this unknown role and fulfilling this, what was a, a clear need, but an unknown role for us. And so the timing of that sensation with the open doors and the opportunities and all of that is really what compelled us to seriously pray about it and determined this is where God was leading us. John: Mm yeah. So it's not like you were, you were running away from something that, you know, things are going along pretty well. And, but here is something that was better that God was leading you to. Billy: Yeah,Absolutely. I mean, it's still to be honest, you know, sometimes at our worst we're tempted to think like, man, did we, you know, you get to this point where can't go back and you're like, did we make a mistake? You know, going forward. And yeah. And I think a lot of that is just the enemy tempting us and trying to, you know, keep us from what God's called us into. But yeah, absolutely. It wasn't certainly wasn't running away. In fact it was quite when we came to Fort wilderness, for me personally, I had a lot of support and encouragement from peers and coworkers and even my own supervisor when I left and broke the news to him that I was, you know, gonna be resigning in the next month and talked to him. He this was God's grace. Billy: He had offered that, you know, he is like, he's like, I, I'm not gonna ask you to stay and offer you more money cuz I understand why you're doing this, he's like, but if things don't work out in spring and your support raising, isn't going well, he's like just call me, you know, I could throw some work your way and you could work remotely. Everybody was working remotely at that time. Anyway. So things like that were super helpful and leaving on leaving with good rapport and on good terms is, you know, something you still think about, especially in those moments when you're doubting and you know, wondering, and life is seeming more complicated than it probably should be. John: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting, you know, one definition of a missionary is someone who goes from one culture to another culture to, in some ways spread the good news of Jesus Christ. Now you move from one part of Wisconsin to another part of Wisconsin, but did you notice any cultural differences between where you were living in, in an urban setting compared to ....your smiling ... Um compared to living in the north woods? Tell us about the change in culture. Laura: Yeah, yeah. That's such a good, good question. You know, I think, I think I know that I downplayed this. I was like, and we've, we've had this whole discussion of what is the definition of a missionary and, and there's different ones. You know, at Fort we raise, we raise our support, meaning that our salaries paid to us. We had to talk to our church and friends and family and they support us monthly and that money pays our salary. So you know, that, that was one thought I had and because we were doing that support raising, I was like, yeah, I'm mean, and there isn't really the cultural thing because we're in Wisconsin and we're still gonna be in Wisconsin. And I, I should have, have thought about that more. It's been a drastic cultural change, both from just living in the city to living in the north woods, but also just not being on the corporate world schedule economy. Laura.: It's been challenging. I think mainly because I downplayed it. It was like, it's no, no big deal. We're just moving four hours away. It's no big deal.... And it, it has been a big deal. Mm. And I, you know, John, you told us, you have a lot of people that listen to your podcasts that are missionaries. And so I don't want that to come across as we did something as, as hard as moving to another country. In fact, I'm saying, wow, this has been a struggle. And we moved four hours and I can't imagine someone moved actually to a different our country. Yeah. we, you know didn't have language barriers or, or any of, of those things. So I don't, I don't wanna diminish, I mean yeah. Mm-Hmm, even more strength it must take to, to go to another country. John: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How about for you, Billy? What, how has the cultural change, affected you or did it,? Billy: Yeah, certainly I think, especially cuz we moved from a pretty tight knit community and we had a lot of overlap between our church community and our living community mm-hmm . And so the people that we'd see and bump into at church on Sunday were also people that we'd see and bump into, you know, walking around sidewalks and we're just kind of doing life together. And that's, so it's a little, it's much more spread out up here just physically and logistically to overlap and to kind of get insights into people's lives or invite people into your lives is just logistically more challenging. So that was a, that's a big thing. I think that just drives sort of a different culture in the way. Probably that people are just and this is, I don't like to make general statements, but are just less accustomed to always being around mm-hmm you and other of people, you know, it's just, it's just kind of, there's a different vibe to it. Billy: But I think to add to what Laura was saying one of the challenges, and maybe this is less about culture is just being, feeling unestablished. I think when you go from a place where you feel established or you built a home and a life and you go to another place, whether that's 30 minutes away or on the other side of the world, there's a part of you. I think that I felt that where we feel like foreigners a little bit, like we're not, we, we didn't grow up here. You know, we haven't, our kids weren't raised here. We don't have the history, we don't know the places. We don't know the landmarks, all the, all the things that make you kind of have this sense of home and establishment, we're trying to piece together and, you know, get a grip on a little bit. So in that sense, maybe that amplifies the, what we perceive as like a difference in cultures from one to the other. But I think, that's a big part of it. John: Mm. Yeah. You know, one of those things that, we talk a lot about on the podcast is relationships. Have you noticed any differences in relationships where you're living now compared to where you were living, where you came from? Are they, are they different? Are they the same? How has your move affected the relationship between the two of you and, you know, your children, your parents? Has that been affected in any way? Billy: Yeah, I think , sometimes there might be the sense that if God's calling you to something and you understand that call and you accept that call, that you've arrived and you've, you've kind of done it and accomplished, you know, like the rest of this story is, and they lived happily ever after, you know, and I think that one of the things I've come to recognize, especially with relationships is that God doesn't, you know, call the equipped, but that he calls everybody, especially us to come here to grow. And so we've, I think that Laura and I, you know, between the two of us have had growth in our relationship, even in the past weeks. And some of that, I contribute to God, specifically pushing us and growing us in areas together as a married couple. And a lot of it has to do with, you know, that whole being established thing. I think that maybe he hasn't let us get too established yet because he does want us to not be too dependent on things. He loves us too much to let us get established in maybe bad routines or things like that. Mm-Hmm so he's working on us and you know, would he have done that? Had we not slipped into this fall? I don't probably, I don't know, but it seems like as we're here specifically, you know, making our work, his work, he's been pretty intentional in growing us as a married couple. John: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Laura: I think yeah, our relationships have, have definitely every single one has changed. One thing we were talking about just tonight was so we had this great community where we lived and with our church and our neighborhood and Bible studies, we were in, like, we just, we had this great, great community. Right. And like, lots of people knew we were Christians, but yet we become a missionary. Right. And, so now all these friends know that we did this big thing and moved, right. And like Billy said, like, somehow you can feel like you've arrived. And, and cuz people would say that to you like, oh, I could never do that, but I'm so glad you're doing it. Like as if we're all of sudden somehow elevated, which is just not true, God comes to us in our brokenness. But, the really surprising, you know, the sad change is like, of course, like you don't keep in touch as much as you want because we're here now. Laura: And a lot of our relationships where we lived, like everyone walked places, we only had one car and we almost never used it. Like, so you would just run into people and connect with them. And so that's gone, like, you know, you still can text people and call people, but like that daily interaction it's not there. And so that, that was a great, great loss, but this beautiful thing that's come is people, whether they support us financially or not, we'll text us prayer requests. And it's like, I used to talk to you every day and you never asked me to pray for you. but now I'm a missionary. And like, I get the honor of people reaching out and being like, Hey, this is going on. I know you said that we could reach out for prayer you prayed for this. And I was like, wow, like, so that's been a beautiful change in, in the relationship. Mm-Hmm. That I wasn't expecting to be honest, like I was not expecting that at all. So, yeah. John: Cool. And, tell us about your, kids. You got three young kids. What about your relationship with them and their own individual relationships? Can you comment on that? Laura: You know, it was, it was a really big change for them too. And, and for context, our kids, when we moved were, seven, five and three, when we moved and, and I thought, you know, yeah, they've got friends, but they're super young. You know, they're not gonna, I, I didn't think it would be a huge deal, but there was a lot of factors. They were in public school, COVID hit. Then they were home. Then we decided to homeschool. Then we decided to become missionaries. And so they had like major change after major change, after, or major change. So I, I think there's been highs and lows mm-hmm and I think, I think something God's taught me in it is you can plan all you want and pick out, oh, this community is gonna be best for my kids, or this school is gonna be best, or this church home is gonna be best. But at the end of the day, there's not one perfect place to raise kids. And it's gonna be hard whether we're missionaries in the Northwood of Wisconsin or we're in this perfect picked out community. Mm-Hmm because we had picked out, you know, where we lived was because of the schools and the church and the community and, and there's pros and cons to any place you live. And at the end of the day, you have to put the time into parenting and you've got to rely on the Lord. John: Mm-Hmm Laura: I think the Lord's for sure. Been teaching me that since we've been here. John: Yeah. Yeah. Were there any surprises when you started, when you moved? Laura: Was that a yes, no question? The answer is yes. John: . Can you share one ? Billy: Yeah, I don't want, I don't mean this to sound critical or anything. But I think that for some reason, I thought that I worked in the secular world and that the secular world was very secular. And then you come and where I was going to work , you know, is kind of the church and the ministry. And so I had sort of this ideal in my mind about how that would look and function, and honestly you get into it and you start to discover like, oh, wait a minute. There's actually like, people are still people even here. And there's brokenness mm-hmm and there's challenges. And there's, you know, places where maturity is needed or places where maturity is really strong. And so one surprises that I found myself in moments, like looking back and thinking like, wow, actually in some ways I found my, my company that I worked for to be, you know, in moments could be more empathetic and in moments could be more concerning about, you know, like work life balance or stuff like that. Billy: And, again, I don't mean that to sound like a criticism, especially Fort wilderness is an amazing organization. And, you know, I think we're super blessed and impressed with it, but there's just a, you know, a reckoning of the ideals that we sometimes falsely build up in our mind about how, how ministry is gonna be this perfect place. Everyone's gonna be working hand in hand in community. But like, in fact it is work and , it's called work for a reason because it is difficult and people aren't perfect and we aren't perfect. And, but yet by God's grace we all, you know, so somehow come together and do something. John: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. For each of you, what have you found to be some of the more rewarding things about what you do? Billy: Do you wanna go, Laura: You can go first. Billy: Well, I think it's really cool being like I'm, so I'm a registered architect and I'm an architect by trade and been doing that for years. And I came from a firm of, you know, there are 110 people in it and like 80 architects, people who think and work like I do. And we, you know, we understand the craft that we come together around to do. So being, being the only architect now has on one hand challenges, because you don't have the depth of resources you had and you know, you're always kind of comparing yourself to your, your past or your peers, in the industry. But on the other hand it's really cool cuz you feel like, man, I really matter here. Like I really like I'm bringing the skillset that's unique and prepared us for it. And I matter in this role and I, I really feel like I belong here. And so I think that's been rewarding as we've seen projects come together and as we kind of solidify with our teams and you know, work together really well and actually see stuff get done, it's, it's kind of a cool feeling. You feel like you really had a big impact on it. John: Mm-hmm great. Laura: Yeah. And I'd, I'd say I think our unique area of ministry of, what Fort does, family camps in general, the people coming are all Christians to the family camp. Like you come to family camp to have a certain experience and you likely wouldn't sign up to attend a Christian family camp if you're not Christian in general. Right. So, so that part of the ministry people come and they are expecting and willing to talk about deep things because you're the missionary staff. And so, you know, I worked years at the Kohler company and had maybe one spiritual top discussion with a colleague because it's like taboo in the workplace to talk about anything. Right. Spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. And so if to get on that level with someone took years of working with them and it's like, we're up here at camp. And like our first summer I'm like, I just had this incredible conversation and this camper was talking to me about that. Laura: Right. And it's just like happening all over. And so that was like super encouraging. And then the youth camps and all winter, the youth groups come up all winter and, and so that you've got just all sorts of people. Like they're not, not all Christians and they're seeking and so yeah, I've just been, just touched the whole, the whole year. And I, I guess maybe it, it, after working corporate world for a long time, I hope that I never lose that this first year joy that every time campers are there, there's an opportunity for an incredible conversation. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the flip side of that, honestly, though, John is like, there are days when I'm doing my marketing stuff that I just feel like I'm doing marketing stuff. Right. And, and I think as someone who, this is our first time working in ministry and I, I cringe at that term because you work as a Christian, I think you're always working in ministry. You're just not always being paid. Right. Like, yeah. So I guess I think, you know, we're one year in living up here and, and I'm still, I'm still wrestling through, I think a lot of that of am I, am I doing ministry when I'm plugging away at my computer? Mm-Hmm you know, or is it only when I'm talking with campers? Billy: Yeah. Laura: And there's a guilt in that right. Of like, and then you have camp is fun. So it's like, I never wanna leave because I might miss out on some incredible conversation. And then I'm like, but wait, like this isn't about me. Like God is actually doing the work. So I can go home like, , I can go rest. Right. Billy: It's a bit of an identity crisis at times, because it's like on one hand, I'm, I'm a professional who came from the corporate world and I'm, for me, I'm an architect and I do architect and we drive projects and I know what to do as an architect. So I've got that title. But on the other hand, I'm sort of this, I guess, cliche, missionary title too, you know, it's like, and so I feel like, like you're saying, if I'm doing my architecture stuff really well, it takes a lot of, you know, time and dedication. And I feel like, okay, I'm, I'm being a good architect, but now I'm not being a good mission area because I'm not doing ministry with people and you know, and so then it's like, all right, now, what is mission? What is ministry then? Billy: Is it designing the projects and, you know, making them successful or is it serving lunch with a camper or having the spiritual conversation or preaching, or, you know, where, when I'm an architect one minute, and the next minute i'm a missionary and, you know, maybe, you know, why doe it gotta be so complicated? but, but there's a bit of that where you feel like you're doing one well, and you're neglecting the other, or you're doing the other well, and you're neglecting the first and mm. It's kind of a strange gray area. Cause you're, yeah. You know, you're compared to professionals on one hand, but also this definition of a missionary on the other hand. John: Yeah. That was interesting. What have you learned about yourself? You've been there now? What a year and a half, two years, is it Billy: Deep questions. You know, I think, I think one thing that I've learned is I didn't think that where I lived and the house I had mattered to me as much as it apparently did. I Billy: Hmm. You know, and I think that we were talking a little bit earlier about, you know, this idea of being established and all that, and it's, it's more uncomfortable than I probably thought it would be. You know, I kind of had this idea that I could live. We could live anywhere. You know, we're pretty flexible. We're nimble all this stuff, but it's just weird how these silly thoughts come to you. You like the neighborhood we live in now, demographically is, is much poor, very different, mostly all rentals. Like, so you have, you know, it's, it's not hard to see that there's like a lot of brokenness and the families and things around here. And, you know, in Wauwatosa I think we lived across the street where our next neighbor's house was a $600,000 house. And now , I think the house across the street from us is probably worth $60,000, you know? Billy: So it's like Uh, starkly different. And so you have these dumb thoughts of like, man, my kids, like, what are they gonna grow up understanding of it? You know, like how is this gonna affect them and all this stuff. So I think God has used our living situation to expose idols in our hearts and in his grace has pushed us to deal with those things and to really understand what, you know, what is, what is important. And so I think that's a way that I've seen, I know I've been growing in that. I think we've both been growing in that. Mm. Laura: Yeah. I think the biggest thing I've learned about myself is that I had a lot of deep rooted pride in, in money and my own achievements. Like, like I went to college and, you know, I was a straight A student. And so then you, you get the job and your paycheck comes and you're like, yeah, I deserve that money. In fact, I probably should be paid more because mm-hmm. , I've worked for this and I'm a hard worker and right. Like it, you can just, I mean, I never said those words out loud, but I definitely thought them in my head. And then the Lord leads us to this thing that we have to raise support. Right. And every time, so how it works when we get a paycheck, every paycheck there, we get a sheet in it with all these names and the amount that that person gave in that two week pay period. Laura: Mm. And it's really hard to be prideful when you get a sheet like that every week. And you're like, no, like the reason I get to do this work is because all these people believed that this ministry was worth it and believed that Billy and I were being called to it and are willing to give the funds so that, so I can get paid. And every time I open those little envelopes, I'm like, oh, it's not about me. Like it, like, I just it's. I mean, we've been getting them for a year. Like, and I still can just feel like I need that reminder every two weeks to not be prideful. And I'm like, wow, I had a way bigger pride issue than I thought I had. John: Mm-Hmm. Laura: Like, like, okay, like, you know, and so it gets back to this like dual purpose. It's like, has the Lord called us here because we're, we have skill sets and we have something to offer that Fort needs. Yes. But has he equally called us here because he's working in us and, and through us, like, because we're broken sinful people, like yes. Like both those things are true. Billy: Yeah. Laura: And, I think that's a good place to be, to have both those being true. John: Yeah. What advice would you have for someone who is where you were a year and a half, two years ago? What advice would you have for someone who would be considering leaving a secular job to be, to become a missionary? Billy: I would say that if, if God is really calling you to that, then you can't go wrong and he, he's not calling you because you're equipped and you may, and you may be, and maybe you have a skillset to offer, but it's like, Laura was just saying, he's calling you to equip you. He will equip you. And in ways that are far reaching beyond the actual work that he's calling you to do, mm-hmm,, he's deeply concerned with you. He's deeply concerned with the condition of your heart and he loves you. And that's why he's calling you into it. So if he's, yeah, if you, if he's calling you then do it, but it doesn't mean that the rest of the story is, and they lived happily ever after mm-hmm John: Yes. Billy: He calls us to grow us. Laura: Yeah. I'd echo that. And, and I would also say if you feel the Lord's leading, you, you know, you need to get on your hands and knees and, and make sure that he's, he's the one leading that it's not something in your own mind. And, and I think you do that in prayer. I think you do that in, in his word, you do that by reaching out to, to some really trusted friends, which, you know, John, that, we did that when we were in our, our discernment time period. And for us, all three of those areas in our individual prayer in our time spent in the word and the trusted friends we met with all three pointed to, to going. And at that point we said, yes, we didn't, we didn't ask about the money. Or we were like, well, we can't say no. Now, like, if God has said yes, in all three of those areas, like, I mean, that that's, I that's how we discerned our decision. And so I, I put that time in that discernment process, for sure. John: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great. It's getting going longer than I told you it would go. So I appreciate your appreciate your time. If people wanted to find out more about Fort wilderness, how could they do that? What's the website and all of that. And I'll have it in the show notes too. Laura: Yeah. So it's, it's fortwilderness.com. It's a new website that I had the privilege of working on. So thanks for asking about that, John. John: That's right. I forgot. Yeah. That's a great website. Laura: That's been my big work for the last like eight months. It's not perfect, but, but we did launch the new website and you can find out about the ministry there. You can see the missionaries that are serving there and many are still raising support. Yeah. And you can, you can get in touch with us. We love praying for people and getting to know people so, yeah, that'd be great. John: Mm-Hmm. Good. Well, thanks again. We love you guys and we, we miss you, but we're just really, really excited to see how God is using you for his glory in Northern Wisconsin and all the people that come from all over to learn more about Jesus and you are important parts of that ministry, important parts of facilitating that kind of activity and advancing God's kingdom. So we applaud what you do, that's for sure. So again, thanks for your time. And we will stay in touch. So what does all this mean for YOU? Some of the questions I asked Billy and Laura I found helpful for all of us to ask ourselves How has God led us to what we are doing now? How are relationships impacting our lives? What are the rewarding things about our jobs, or if we're not employed, what's rewarding in the ways we spend our time? What have we learned about ourselves in the last year or two? Here's the main takeaway I hope you remember from today's episode Taking the time to listen to a missionary, to hear their story of how God has led them and is growing them, can inspire us to listen more deeply to God so that we can grow too. I'd love to hear any thoughts you have about today's episode. Closing In closing, I hope your thinking was stimulated by today's show to think about how you can listen to a missionary, or even your friends, to hear their story of how they got to where they are today. For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God intends for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This. Well, that's it for today. In the meantime, create a little joy for the people you meet this week. Spread some relational sunshine. And I'll see you next time. To check out Fort Wilderness, go to fortwilderness.com Related episodes you may want to listen to 139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast? 143: Initiate with People to Enrich Our Life - Part 1 144: Initiate with People to Enrich Our Life - Part 2 Our Sponsor You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. We are supported by the generosity of people like you to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.

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John Burns co-authored Big Shifts Ahead: Demographic Clarity for Businesses, a book written to help make demographic trends easier to understand, quantify, and anticipate. Before founding John Burns Real Estate Consulting in 2001, John worked for 10 years at KPMG Peat Marwick—2 as a CPA and 8 in their Real Estate Consulting practice. John Burns founded the company to help business executives make informed housing industry investment decisions. The company's research subscribers receive the most accurate analysis possible to inform their macro investment decisions, the company's consulting clients receive specific property and portfolio investment advice designed to maximize profits. Gary Beasley is CEO and Co-Founder of Roofstock, the leading online marketplace for buying, selling and owning single-family rental investment homes. Recognized as a leader in the future of real estate, Roofstock was featured on Forbes' 2019 Fintech 50 list. Gary has spent most of his career building businesses in the real estate, hospitality and tech sectors. After earning his BA in economics from Northwestern, Gary ventured west to earn his MBA from Stanford, where he caught the entrepreneurial bug and still serves as a regular guest lecturer. Immediately before starting Roofstock, Gary led one of the largest single-family rental platforms in the U.S. through its IPO as co-CEO of Starwood Waypoint Residential Trust, now part of Colony Starwood Homes. In this episode, we discuss the current state of the real estate market and the economy more broadly. Gary and John share their thoughts on what has been happening year over year in the housing market; what 40-year highs of inflation, rising interest rates, and geopolitical unrest mean for real estate investors; and highlight some of the risks that investors are faced with today.    Episode Links: https://www.realestateconsulting.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/john-burns-real-estate-consulting/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-beasley-956647/ https://www.roofstock.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today with me I have two very heavy hitters in the real estate space. John Burns, CEO of John Burn's real estate consulting, and Gary Beasley, co-founder and CEO of Roofstock. So without further ado, let's jump into hearing their thoughts and opinions around what's been going on in today's real estate market.   John Burns and Gary Beasley so happy and excited to have you both back on the podcast. Thank you for taking the time to hang out with me today.   John: You bet.   Gary: Hey, Michael, great to see you.   Michael: So I of course, know a little bit about both of your backgrounds and who you are. But for those of our listeners that might not be familiar with who you both are, if you could give us a quick two minute, two second intro of who you are, where you come from, and what it is you're doing in real estate and John, if you want to go ahead and start, that'd be great.   John: Okay, I'm the CEO of John Burn's real estate consulting, I founded it back in 2001, to figure out what's going on the housing market for a lot of people, mostly big companies and that's what we do.   Michael: Love it and Gary?   Gary: Sure, I am Gary Beasley, I'm the co-founder and CEO of Roofstock and we've been at this for about six and a half years now. Building out really the complete ecosystem for single family rental investors and I've known John now, I think, John, since about when you started the company, it feels like we've known each other for a while we when we I think when we met we we both had dark hair. Remember that?   John: It's been a very long time.   Michael: That's great. Well, I wanted to chat with you both around a lot of things that I've been getting questions about, and I'm sure that the two of you have as well and that's just kind of what's been going on with the housing, market and economy over the last couple years since the pandemic started. So I would love to just jump into things get into the meat and potatoes and get both of your thoughts on really year over year, what's been going on at the macro level in the housing market.   John: Well, I guess I go first, if you let me go back maybe three years, so but pre the pandemic because I think it's relevant. The housing market was extremely hot. We have a different view than a lot of people on on how undersupplied the market was, we don't think it was I just applied at all actually until about 2019, then it started to be under supplied and with interest rates. So damn low everywhere in the world, people had figured out that single family rental housing was a great investment just to get some yield and we were seeing a lot of investors come in to the market, then COVID hit so you know investors are very volatile. They stopped for a few months, and then they came back very strong and probably the biggest difference in the last year is the fear of inflation has piled in on top of the need for yield and it's double the reason to invest in rental homes. So we're seeing money from all over the world focused on housing in America.   Gary: I would agree that clearly the residential market has been booming and I would say despite a number of factors that you would have thought might have slowed it down. We went through a global pandemic, and housing chugged right on through and we could talk later perhaps about why some of those things happen. But the reality is really kind of across price points and geographies. You've seen robust demand for housing and if you look at price increases year over year, John, I know you track the SFR space really closely and it kind of mirrors what's been going on even if you look at owner occupied sales, but home prices have been going up call it 15 plus percent, year over year, pretty consistently. That's a big number, when you think about historically, it's been about 4%. If you go back 40 years on a compounded basis. That's how it had been up until fairly recently.   So a lot of you know in rents have lagged that a bit but you've seen high single digit to low double digit rent increases as well in a lot of these markets and so in oftentimes, I feel rents are a little bit of a lagging metric because especially a lot of the mom and pop owners don't raise rents every year don't raise them, really even to market so we're seeing a lot of homes come to market today that have rents that are 10 or 20%, below where the markets are today. So, so you've got just a lot of demand for the product and, you know, we're at an interesting time now, and I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, some of the current dynamics in the market, interest rates have moved up quite a bit in the last, you know, month to six weeks, we've got a lot of interesting things going on geopolitically, we're not yet seeing that impact, demand or pricing. One would think that those factors should that have an impact over time. But for now, I think just the supply demand dynamics very, very much in the favor of demand over supply.   Michael: Okay. Interesting and I'm curious to get both of your opinions on this, I mean, we are at such a unique time, kind of in history and curious to know your guys's thoughts on do you think that real estate investing fundamentals have it all shifted because of where we find ourselves today? John, I'll let you go first on this one.   John: I don't know if the fundamentals have shifted, because I've seen this game before. But what is different is that by investing in rental homes has become a very easy thing to do, thanks to Roofstock and others. I mean, prior to 2012, you couldn't get on your computer and figure out exactly how much a home was worth and how much it could rent it for in about five minutes, you can now there's all sorts of vehicles where you can invest in funds and completely passively invest in housing and I think it's become an asset class that really was very illiquid, and pretty lumpy before that now has become more liquid and I think that is a permanent change in the market, doesn't mean things can't go down. But I think it's actually had a permanent positive increase permanently on home prices.   Gary: I would agree with John, I don't think the fundamentals, I don't think the fundamentals of real estate investing have changed. But I would say perhaps some of our maybe preconceptions or assumptions about how it would perform is I kind of mentioned earlier, or maybe a little bit challenged, and that there's just so much demand for the product and in the pandemic. You know, it was almost counterintuitive that home prices would go up and rents would go up. But when you think about the fact that people really demanded shelter, safe shelter, and there was an exodus of from a lot of the coastal cities to secondary and tertiary markets drove a lot of that demand. So but I think still, the fundamentals of real estate are very much about location and supply and demand. Those things, those fundamentals I think are true. I think one of the things we're seeing though is perhaps there are different things get that can drive, demand and pricing for different types of real estate assets. So if you look at for example, housing, and industrial, which have done quite well, throughout the throughout the pandemic and the aftermath, and then you had some real estate asset classes that really suffered, because you look at office and retail and and REIT in hotels, things like that. So it's it. I think real estate broadly can be influenced by different things. The fundamentals of each have to be examined, but certainly for housing. It's been it's been very strong, despite what might you might have considered some some headwinds.   Michael: Okay, interesting and you both touched on inflation in the conversation thus far and so I'm curious to know, how much of the demand do you think is being really driven by inflation? And do you think that folks are right or wrong to be considering real estate investing as a hedge or as a defense against inflation?   John: People's expenses are going up and your investments should beat inflation and nothing in the treasury market does it in fact, nothing in the high yield bond market pretty much does it now too, I don't know how you earn returns. But this was going on pre COVID and that's why I mean that there was a surge of money coming into the market pre COVID. We at our conference at the end of 2019, we had Bruce flat, the CEO of Brookfield asset management, who at the time manage more than $500 billion was fundraising all over the world and he literally said that this is the most significant thing he seen in the last 15 years, is everything that produces cash is gonna go up in value, and that was pre COVID and so that this this has just got even more accelerated because inflation wasn't even part of the equation. Now if you're now if you need to beat inflation in your return and inflation is right now the latest print is seven 8% where you're going to get seven or 8%? And so housing, if wages go up which they are, you can raise rents, if the cost of the structure going up is going up, which it definitely is, every single component in the house has gone up, their cost of construction has gone up at least 10% in the last year. That's an inflation hedge too, because nobody's gonna replicate what you own for the same amount of money. It's very much an inflation hedge.   Gary: Everything points toward continued inflation, in my view in the housing market. Now, that being said, interest rates going up, you would think should moderate that. That's an offsetting influence, but the cost of the inputs, the labor and the materials, clearly upward pressure, everything that's going on in the world, disrupting the global supply chain, and the cost of transport and all that putting upward pressure, Pete wage inflation to keep people in their seats, and to hire people. That's allowing people to have more and more money to spend on housing that's also pulling pricing up. It's hard to see how much that's going to, in an absolute basis reduce the price of housing, I do think that we will see some moderating of the rate of inflation of homes over the upcoming quarters and years, I think that 15% is gonna come down naturally. But I don't see, I don't see it coming down to the point where it actually reverses and you see absolute price declines, like we saw in that really unusual time in the Great Recession, which was, arguably a once in a generation adjustment to housing prices there. I think, a lot of fundamental differences between what we're seeing today and and what we saw back then this is not a credit bubble.   John: So I agree with everything you said until this is not a credit bubble. I mean, maybe you meant a credit bubble on housing, because I agree with you.   Gary: That's what I mean, I mean that there's a lot of embedded equity, as opposed to people, you know, having 3% or less equity in their homes, they've got 20 plus percent equity. Now, you can talk about the I wasn't speaking to the global kind of free money, credit bubble, but…   John: Well, that's a I think there's a credit bubble going on in the world on pretty much everything else. I mean, Dodd Frank, made it impossible to do it on a mortgage going through a bank. But people are lending against crypto, it's the highest borrowing and stock prices ever. We're seeing deals even in single family rental that well, I would say are being done with pretty much no due diligence, because it's a mess piece. So there's a little bit of equity in front of me and what I worry about is a recession caused by a credit bubble outside of the housing market, which impacts housing demand and you know, that's when housing was struggle, but I think everything else in the world would struggle at the same time, maybe even more, so. So I'm not, I'm not saying get into stocks or bonds, because it's just that, that that's what caused the great financial crisis, and it was housing last time. I think it's other stuff this time. We were seeing flip flipper loans are being securitized on Wall Street. I mean, there's, you know, I see that in my business, one of my clients is lending against crypto balances. You know, I think another famous person just came out and said, if you've got if you can put up crypto, I'll give you the value of your crypto to make a down payment for a house, that there's some different stuff going on. That concerns me but not on buying rental homes or Roofstock more concerning on the economy.   Michael: Okay and so curious, John, just, you know, personal thoughts. What's a good defense?   John: You know, normally it would be cash, but holding on to cash it goes down 7% in a year. So I think Howard Marks who's a famous investors calls this an everything bubble. We're in an everything bubble right now and how do you invest in an everything bubble? I have no idea. That's why I run it…   Gary: Maybe maybe negative interest rate German bonds don't seem so crazy.   Michael: Yeah.   John: Well, no, exactly. So, so if you're, if you know, in the coming world, losing 3% is probably a good deal relative to everybody else if that's if that's how that plays out.   Michael: All right, well, keep both you keeping your eyes and ears peeled and let me know if you hear something great for hedge against the everything bubble, I'd appreciate it.   John: Well, it's it's still specific. I mean, that that's what the smart people aren't doing. They're just, they aren't going to do just a sector. They're looking at everything carefully and in this industry, if you don't have a lot of competition going around where you're making investments, that's a far safer place to be if there's some great job growth in your conference. In a job growth because those employers are profitable and making money and going to be there all the time, that's a different story than the job growth being in a sector that's currently losing money, for example.   Michael: That makes total sense, that makes total sense. I'm curious if we could take a step back and understanding that neither of you work for the Federal Reserve, but I'm curious to know your thoughts and kind of get some insight into? I mean, you talked about the wage growth going up, and then the cost of goods and services going up? How do we not get into this upward death spiral? And I know, Gary, you mentioned, you know, raising interest rates could curtail that, but it seems like there's just so much money out there how to, how do we kind of ease down from this?   Gary: Yeah, well, I think there's it I don't know, if there's been a tougher, it's never easy being involved with setting Fed policy, but you have a lot of things to balance here. This is a tightrope act. So you want to slow the economy here, enough to curtail inflation, yet, not necessarily throw it into a big recession, you've got a lot of things going on overseas, that should you could argue are already going to cause things maybe to slow a bit because of what's going on over there. So do they need to pump the brakes as much here. So maybe that means that the Fed doesn't raise as aggressively here and what that may mean is, you know, rates grow a little bit more slowly and maybe the economy tends to overheat despite the global weakness. So it's a really, really challenging balancing act, I think that the Fed is under enormous pressure to curtail inflation and so I think, despite that, we'll probably err on the side of pumping the brakes a little bit heavier, even though that may mean we're risking recession. That would be I'd be curious, John, if you have a view. But if I had to, like on the continuum of what they're more worried about right now, normally, they're, you know, I would say that they've been historically more worried about not wanting to put us in the recession. But we've never, in a long time had these sort of inflationary pressures and in particular, where I think people feel it, it seems to be at the gas pump, right? We're always talking about fuel prices people feel that very deeply and there's a lot of political pressure, even though the feds, in theory, a political, political pressures tend to work their way into those decisions.   John: Yeah and my 30 plus years of paying attention to this, I've never seen the Fed more politically tied than they are right now. They frankly, they seem to me to be puppets of elected officials. I mean, the fact that Powell had to announce for months and months and months, they were going to raise rates, but never raised them once until he got reappointed will tell you something. So I mean, I always honestly think it seems to me like elected officials are calling the shots right now and I think the ultimate fear is a recession or we want to get inflation down, because inflation isn't good either and then, you know, the way I think about this, too, is there's, if you really talk about people's true costs, there's a huge variation in inflation. So if you're a homeowner who owns your car, you know, your your housing costs haven't gone up at all, maybe you got a little bit of a property tax reassessment, you haven't had to go back and purchase a car or release a car and if you are close to work or working from home, frankly, your cost of living might be down over the last year or two.   If you're somebody who's commuting to work, Rance had to you know, really your lease was up had to get another car. I mean, your cost of living can be up to 15 to 20% and the Fed seems to be focused on those people, rightly or wrongly. But that that's how I'm thinking about this is it's a huge difference in what's actually happening depending on what you are, and then the wage growth. You know, if you're in the hospitality sector, you haven't seen anything. But if you're a construction worker or a truck driver, your wages are up dramatically. So and those are the ones I that we're seeing that are buying homes, renting homes, people that are affluent, able to work from home, hey, I can I can now go out to the suburbs and rent a really nice house and my housing costs are gonna go down, not up because my boss says I only need to come into work twice a week. So it's it's very complicated story on picture painting here, but that's exactly I think how the Fed is looking at it.   Gary: Yeah. And then you also have, obviously those who own assets versus not I mean, this is similar to what John was talking about, but not only can you have the cost of living impacted a lot, a lot less if you own your assets. But in fact, John, you may know this figure I read it, I think last week, some fairly sizable percentage of the US population made more off of their homes this year than they did from their jobs. The power, the power in an inflationary environment of owning assets, it's kind of hard to overstate it. That I think one of the reasons, I think we're seeing more and more kind of first timers wanting to own their first investment property, even if they aren't in a position to own the home they're living in right now. Going to some of these lower price markets, and getting on the ownership bandwagon and just writing that asset appreciation. It's, you know, it's a powerful force.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely.   John: I think you were going to say, it's a powerful drug.   Gary: Well, some people do become addicted to it…   John: We're starting to see that. So people are taking the $200,000 in price appreciation of their house with a refi out of their investment, and then using it to buy three or four more homes, right, that that's what's going on right now. So it is it is addictive.   Michael: Yeah. That makes total sense.   Gary: Yeah. Well, it's been it's been a, a tried and true, a tried and true way for real estate investors to make money, right is to buy that first property, refinance it, take that money, buy more properties and build. But I think, John, to your point, what's happening is, a lot of people are doing that with their primary home equity to get started, as opposed to being more of the intentional investor who just started to do that, I think more and more people are doing it with, you know, equity in their homes, which I think in many ways makes a lot of sense from a diversification standpoint, rather than having so much of your wealth, personally tied up in a single property address, where you happen to live, where you're really subject to the vagaries of your local real estate market, local job market, all that kind of stuff, because that's where you tend to work to diversify into other markets and other assets, I think does make a lot of sense.   Michael: John, would you agree?   John: Yeah, no, diversification makes a lot of sense. I just, I also think it makes a lot of sense to watch how much leverage you've got and to make sure you've got the cash flow, you know, just in case something bad goes wrong. And I think people that are investing like that, and doing exactly what you're saying, are going to be great. But last time, what we saw was, people just were ignoring that and then you lose your job, and then you lose your tenant, and you're your host. So you got you got to be careful here and I think the more I'm a generalized a little bit here, but the more mature people that have seen this before doing that, and I'm sensing the younger people only think home prices only go up and I are more willing to take more risk than I would recommend.   Michael: John, kind of to that point. I'm curious to get both your guys' thoughts if someone is taking out equity their home, because interest rates are so low, and they've seen the value go through the roof and they're going to go buy investment properties. What's the harm? What's the risk there? I mean, and how does someone know if they are over leveraged? If their cash flow is covering their mortgage payments? I mean, if the value dips, nothing really changes for them from a payment standpoint. So how should people think be thinking about being over leveraged or how much risk is too much?   John: I mean, that's a very personal decision for folks. You know, confidence in your employment situation is probably the most important thing and depends on what you do.   Gary: Yeah, I think, Michael, I mean, to your point, as long as they think it is an important point, in a rental home portfolio. Yeah, even if prices drop of that home and you've got a fixed mortgage, your payments don't change, right and unless rents come down, which they traditionally have not, they tend to be more sticky in single family rentals than say in apartments. We followed a lot of that data over time. So you should be okay. Even if on paper, the value of your home, your rental home has gone down. But I think in the primary residence, which is where John I think was going is if you let's say you have you know, 60% equity in your home and you lever it up to 90 through various means, then all of a sudden, you may be at a point where if you lose your job, and you don't have the reserves, you may be in a little bit of a tougher spot because you don't have that home equity to tap, which historically has just been a really nice thing to have as as a safety net and so when that if that were to happen you might have to sell some of your other properties or you have your equity elsewhere and it's not like you can't necessarily get at it.   But I do think in times where you do have some uncertainty, some global uncertainty and some things like that, having some reserves, make sense, not being over levered, make sense, play the long game, I think that's one of the things that we talk to people a lot about is, this is not a, you know, get rich, quick fix and flip, you know, strategy when you're buying investment properties?   Michael: Are you serious?     Gary: So over the long run, Michael, you're going to do just fine. But you have to be patient. So no, but there's plenty of there's plenty of ways you could make bats to win quickly win or lose quickly. But that's generally not what people are doing with us and I think there's times when people are more risk on is a lot of confidence to maybe lever up and things like that, I think this is a time to be more a little bit more thoughtful about all about leverage ratios and so yes, you give up some levered return, potentially. But if you're in a, I would argue if you're in a place where home prices are going up at such an extraordinary rate, you don't need as much leverage to get a phenomenal return. Even if you're only 50% levered, and your home's going up seven or 8% a year, that asset level, you know, obviously, you're doing much better than that, and the return on equity level, so I would say just don't get greedy. It's a long game and you know, make sure you're, you're around to, you know, fight another day, in case there's any sort of corrections.   Michael: To play the end of the game.   John: I mean, that that's the perfect, that's how I see it, too, is cut the long game. And that's how everybody who's been doing this for decades will all tell you that that's exactly the way to play it. I am I am seeing and hearing and running into 20 somethings who aren't listening to Gary's advice and I have no idea if that's 1% of the market or 40. But they're out there and fortunately, they're not getting loans from banks that 90% LTV, at least that I can find, so that's, that's good.   Gary: I mean, Michael, you talk to a lot of people all the time, what is what is your assessment are people do you think people are thoughtful about this? Do you think that is? Do you agree with John, that people who might not have seen a down cycle might be overly optimistic or do you think that they're better informed?   Michael: Yeah, you know, I think it's really a mix of the two, I think that there are two big camps. One camp says this is going to go on forever and that tends to be the folks that haven't seen a recession before and then there's the folks that say, you know, we're it's got to come down at some point and so let's just kind of see what happens and those tend to be the more seasoned folks. So I'm curious, I'm curious to get your guys's thoughts on for those two camps and someone who's just trying to get started trying to get their foot in the door? How should they be thinking about that, is this something that they can kind of catch on the upswing or is do they really need to be a bit more timid and reserved and say things are maybe a little bit too hot right, now let me let me just take a seat on the sidelines and see how this all plays out?   John: So we've been calling this the high risk high reward the part of the cycle now for 13 months. So I would have told you 13 months ago to be cautious and the person who would have taken a lot of risk what I made far more money than the person who listened to me so but that's how these things play out at the end at the end of the cycle. When you take a lot of risk you should make a lot of reward right? But you know, you also need to know when to take some chips off the table you know, unless you believe we're never going to have a recession again which I don't believe that and then also what Gary said has been very true for single family rental rents. The rents have been very stable over time compared to apartments because there's basically been very little construction of rental homes forever and there's always been a ton of construction in apartments and that's when you get hurt killed is when you know three huge apartment complexes open up down the store down the street totally empty and have to lease up 500 units you're done that even though billed for rent is growing pretty significantly in Phoenix right now it's still a lot smaller level of supply than apartments. So this is a more stable investment than comparative some other rental classes for sure.   Gary: Yeah, it's it's really we like to say it's a lot easier to go up then sideways because if you could you go vertical with apartments and it takes a lot more land and it's typically much more difficult to add the single family rental supply and then over time, you also have more than one on exit on the on the rental homes because you could you could exit to a yield investor or ultimately, an owner occupant. So that's I think one of the things that I've always liked about single family rentals is you've got built in optionality. It's very rare in a real estate investment, to have two very distinct buyer sets on the back end, right. You have an office building, you're going to sell it to an office investor. Same with a hotel, they would, but so this is, you know, I think a unique aspect of single family rentals, which gives, you know, it kind of gives investors a bit of a of a hedge.   Michael: Yeah, that makes total sense. Curious, what do you tell investors who come to you and say, John, Gary, you know, I can't seem to break in, all my offers are getting outbid by all cash offers that are 10 to 15% above asking, I can't go that hi, how can I get my foot in the door? What should I be doing? What tactics should I be using?   John: I mean, I might be the wrong person to ask because my clients tend to be very large companies, and this is for their capital partners, this is less than 10%, or maybe of what they're investing in the spectrum of certainly less than 20%. So they may be all in in this industry. But it's it's not, what you're alluding to, is maybe somebody with 100% of their net worth or 80% of their net worth getting in. That's, I don't advise on that, I mean, people are building rental homes, with the appropriate amount of leverage in good locations. That's where we're coaching people to go, there's also people building rental homes, with a lot of leverage in tertiary locations, right, where there's a lot of other construction going on and that that would be to me a higher risk scenario. I think I think there's room for 100 unit rental community, brand new built in every city in America of size, because you can pull it there's 1000s of people that rent ratty old homes with lousy landlords, and there's a percentage of them that would really love to rent something new. Well, and what's your biggest fear is the tenant that said, they're going to sell the house you live in it, you're gonna have to move out? Well, you know, if you're in a rental community that's owned by a public REIT, they're not selling the house, you know that that fear is gone. They may charge you a little more, because it comes with better service and other things. But I think that's a tremendous long term opportunities to build rental homes.   Michael: Interesting perspective, Gary?   Gary: Yeah, well, I would say, people should do their research, and be patient, be opportunistic, but but not be afraid to act with conviction when they find things that make sense for them and so I think, what we find is, on Roofstock, a lot of times people will come and they will look at properties for months and months and months and talk to people and kind of develop their strategy and eventually, something is going to hit your radar, that's going to check most of the boxes and in this market when that happens, as long as you've done enough work to kind of know this, then be ready to act, you know, I wouldn't recommend somebody come and buy the first home they see because then you're not you just don't have enough data. But when you see where these things are trading and all that, and so that's why I say you know, be disciplined, but also act with conviction, when you find something that does work if you do want to get exposure.   Otherwise, you could sit back and just sort of watch things. But you can also wait a lot of times with stock market, also people want to buy on a dip and just wait, maybe there is a little bit of a correction and that could be a time for people to want to wade back in. The challenge with waiting for a dip is, as John pointed out, there just hasn't been even throughout COVID there's been no dip, it's just, you know, been up into the right and, and so, you know, I don't recommend people just, you just buy because of the momentum, right? You want to, again, you want to feel good about the markets you're buying in and the home that you're buying. But also, it's really hard to time a market. It's just it's almost impossible. So heard that that's why overtime, we recommend people not, you know, even if you're only in a position to buy a home now once but, you know, have a design to own a portfolio of them over time and buy them at different points in the cycle and over time you get that market exposure. It's just, it's hard to time your ins and outs perfectly.   Michael: Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Well, I'm curious now to get your guys' thoughts and opinions looking forward, which I know is always a dangerous thing to do, but I'm going to ask you both take out your crystal ball and in talking, John, you mentioned about new newly built homes built to rent communities and so I'm curious to hear your opinions around, if the housing starts that we're seeing, since COVID, are going to have an impact, you know, several years down the road 8-10, you know, 5-10, eight years down the road, kind of like we're seeing now, as a result from the 2008, lack of home starts.   John: Yeah, we've done more research on that than anybody else. There's a couple people with some very simple analysis that says we're short, about five to 6 million homes. I think we're short about 1,000,007, which is still a lot of homes and that's not the same shortage in Buffalo as it is in Dallas. So you know, this is we've got the numbers by market. But at a high level, if we're short, 1,000,007 homes, there's 1,000,007 homes that have brand new homes that have paid for our permit that haven't been finished yet. So we've got all of that under construction and it's taking about nine weeks longer to build a house for the best production builders in the country. So this is taking a very long time, so it's going to be at least a year before we satisfy that, because there will be some growth along the way, too. So I'm not what is different about this cycle is the lack of construction. But what I want to point out is there's this notion that the low level of supply just means that this is almost a sure thing and I think the most important thing for housing has always been job growth always, even rates can go up dramatically. But if everybody's got their job, okay, we're, you know, maybe prices will be flat for a while, but we'll be fine. It's when you see massive job losses that we cycle down hard.   So that's why I was I was bringing up earlier the whole credit cycle issues. You know, know, if we if we knew exactly how much debt every company had in every industry had and how much they could cover their cash flow, I think I'd have more certainty. Some analysis I've seen is there's quite a few publicly traded companies that aren't currently generating enough cash to pay their debt service. That makes me concern they're not in the housing industry. In fact, the homebuilders have never been better capitalized like, they're amazing. They have the lowest debt levels ever and the bonds that oh, yeah, and the bonds they borrowed, they don't mature for like four or five or six years. So I mean, the homebuilt talk about a safe play, in terms of going through the cycle, I think it's the builders. I'm not recommending stocks, because I don't do that for a living, because I think all of this is priced in. But I'm telling you, publicly traded home builders are very, very strong, right now.   Gary: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, because John does such good research. So I have no reason to doubt the million seven. But I have seen, you know, estimates between four and 6 million homes deficit in in. So I don't know what the right number is and I'm sure that the method, there's methodologies that but but it's still, it's a couple of at least a couple million homes. The question is what, you know, what does that mean, going forward? Do we catch up as quickly? Can we catch up in a year or two?   That's, I think, optimistic. I think it'll be interesting to see if we do. One of the things that John mentioned was job growth, and that historically has been a real driver. What I think is so interesting now is jobs are so distributed and because companies are adding jobs doesn't mean the jobs are going to be where the companies are located and that kind of makes everyone's head explode. If you're trying to forecast, what's the impact of job growth, it really comes down, arguably, more to population growth. So local jobs are one thing and some things have to be localized, right? If you're going to work at a hotel, the hotel is in a particular place, if you're going to be a software engineer, working for Apple, you know, maybe you could be anywhere or any of these other places and so it's a it's a different calculus than I think it was 10 years ago of treatment, trying to forecast job growth from companies and then okay, well, people are going to need to live within a 30 minute commute or 45 minute commute it that's all upside down. So I think it does bode well for some of these secondary and tertiary places that have seen disproportionate growth. But then you also have these places like in Austin that continue to explode and arguably housings no longer very affordable but they keep building more houses and people keep buying them and keep renting them and there's plenty of land in a place like Austin and so I think almost looking at where taxes are low, and people can still get relatively affordable housing almost seems to be more powerful than local job growth. But I'd be curious about, you know, John's view of that.     John: No, he's right. There's a there's a large sector of the economy where you can live wherever you want and I mean, we, we've been doing this since before COVID, as I was never, never believed that all the best people to hire on the world, we're always within commuting distance in my office. So we've been hiring in good locations, and but you got to get the right person who can do that and companies have figured that out now. So your it is about a great location, it is about where I can get a lot of house for my money if I'm a tenant, or if I'm a homebuyer or I can pay lower income taxes, or I can have better weather. So it's really the same place as people were moving pre COVID. It's just more people have been given the permission to move. So you're right, the job growth. It's pretty correlated to the metro area. But I would say the more outlying areas should see more price appreciation, and they are seeing more price appreciation right now, because more people are being allowed to go there.   Michael: Okay.   Gary: Yeah and it's almost interesting. It's a little bit like the job, the jobs are almost coming with the people. So you think of a place like Boise, Idaho, where people move there not for jobs, necessarily, but because they could bring their jobs with them and they all had all this embedded equity in their homes for more expensive markets. So now you have all these people moving into a market like Boise, and you get incredible growth in the prices of homes in Boise. But now people are working from Boise. So are those jobs created in Boise are there jobs that now exist in Boise because it was inexpensive, and it's a nice place to live?   Michael: Yeah, I was gonna ask John, does that make it kind of squirrely to nail down that job growth metric because of this new phenomenon?   John: Yes and no, so there's two jobs surveys, there's one where they call the employer and said, how many people did you hire this month? That's based on where the employer is located. But the one where they call people and say, are you looking for work or not, that comes up with the unemployment number, that's where you live. So actually, we always triangulate the two. So I'll use my example. So we perfect example, I'm in Orange County, California, we hired somebody in Boise, but she could live anywhere. She's showing up on my here in Orange County on one survey, and she's showing up in Boise and the other, so you just you need to look at both the sample size on where the company's located is higher and better and the unemployment number at the Metro levels more volatile. So you got to look at a trend over time and not just overreact to a month or two.   Michael: That's super interesting. Okay, and great to know, too. So, the last question I have for you both, and I think I already know the answer. But for everyone listening, I'm gonna ask on their behalf and your guys' opinions, have there been asset classes that have become more valuable and less valuable as a result of the pandemic and if so, what, in your opinion, are they?   John: You can handle crypto, Gary. I am not going to touch that one.   Gary: Why don't you start then?   John: As I as I said earlier, I think new technology which was not around prior to 2012, has allowed the single family rental business to just blossom permanently And it's, it's now gonna be a permanent part of people's portfolio passively investing in real estate And that has already pushed up prices more than it would have been going forward. Whatever price appreciation would have been otherwise, it'll probably push it up a little bit more. The only thing you have to concern to certain yourself where there is, you know, the government doesn't like that And they tend to be pro homeownership. So you gotta watch regulation. I am seeing a lot of our clients tend to avoid California because they're afraid of rent control. So and there was just a Bloomberg article that 12 Different states have had rent control proposed because of all of this. So you just got to keep your antenna up on on that side. But the rent control is being proposed seems to be more reasonable. It's at the rate of inflation or maybe 1% higher than that, that you can raise rents. It's not, you know, zero or something ridiculous.   Michael: Okay and what in your opinion has been devalued or become less valuable, if anything?   John: Um, I can't think of anything that's become a …Cash!   Gary: It's it makes sense, right? I mean, you're you're losing. I mean, John, John mentioned, if you're literally if you have money sitting in your checking account, right now it's point 001% and we've got 678 percent inflation, that's how much you're losing by sitting in cash and so that does create a risk incentive to put it somewhere. And you know, I would say, Michael, I mentioned this earlier, but I think housing and industrial, which is driven a lot by distribution for E commerce, a lot of those have been really darlings of, of, for investors, they've become very much in favor and I do think you're still seeing some challenges with in some questions about office space demand and you know, not that there aren't always office investors, and there are always going to be people in offices, but there's probably structurally some percentage of less space that companies are going to utilize and so that puts maybe some uncertainty into the minds of investors, if there's another I think, I think a lens people investors are looking at today is okay, there's going to be another pandemic someday, what are the likely implications of this and, you know, office, retail, traditional retail was hurt by the pandemic, but it was also being crushed just by Amazon, right, and so you, so that's, I think, got its own challenges. And then hospitalities is very cyclical anyway, if people stopped traveling, you know, they didn't travel for a while.   So those those I think are, you know, maybe a little slightly more challenged than housing, which is, which has proven to be much more resilient than, than I think most people thought and, as a consequence, you have a lot of a lot of investors, not just, you know, traditional or not just individual investors or institutions from here. But yet people from all over the world saying, well, US housing looks pretty interesting, relative to other places that they could invest.   Michael: Yeah.   John: There's something we take for granted here called Title laws that don't exist in other countries. I mean, people in other countries don't want to buy real estate there, because the government could take it away from them. You know, and I hear that from foreign investors. That's one of the things that they love about investing in America.   Michael: Pretty scary notion if you had to be overseas   John: …Or get I should have mentioned everything that Gary said to I mean, there's a lot of huge funds, pension funds, who like to put a percentage of their assets a 10% in real estate all the time, and it would traditionally go into retail and office and hotel. Do you think they're ever going to go back to the same percentage of retail hotel and office? Probably not, it's going to be far more in this business. Because retail is now industrial. I mean, it's a warehouse and in line, you know, the best retail centers are all going to be fine in the best locations, but they're in line space is dead. So, so you're right, that's gonna push more money into our business.   Michael: Okay, well, guys, this was super informative. I know I had a lot of fun. Hopefully our listeners did, too. If people want to learn a little bit more about each of you, where's the best place for them to do that?   John: Oh, we've got a website https://www.realestateconsulting.com/ I post pretty regularly on LinkedIn. So you can look up John Burns on LinkedIn and get some free stuff every day.   Gary: I love the free hoodie that you got right there, Michael. John, I know you've got a Roofstock hoodie as well. I don't know if you ever wear it.   John: I do, I should have bought it today, I'm sorry about that I should.       Gary: So yeah, I think I would just encourage people, if they want to learn more about what we're doing at Roofstock just come to https://www.roofstock.com/ you could also follow me or hit me up on LinkedIn, I post pretty regularly there as well. But yeah, and keep checking out the podcast I know Michael's been doing a great job along with Pierre and the rest of the team here trying to get they couldn't get any interesting guests this this time so they got John and me but I know they've been otherwise doing getting some pretty interesting folks and doing a great job.   John: Well I saw that you're then the one of the top 1% of podcasters in the world. Hopefully we didn't push it down to 2%.   Michael: A filler episode though this this was great you guys. Thank you so much for taking the time and I very much looking forward to chatting again as we continue along this crazy trajectory that we're on.   Alright, everyone that was our episode, a big thank you to John and Gary for taking the time out of their extremely busy schedules to hang out with me and chat about what's been going on in the real estate market and where we might be headed going forward. As always, if you liked the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is you get your podcast, and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

“John: Yes! Today we're going to talk about setting a financial goal. Doubting Thomas: You mean a short-term goal? John: That, or a long-term goal...but we'll get there soon enough.” This podcast and our other podcast are productions of Little Red Hen Industries. The supporting cast who helps me bake the bread includes: Learn all about financial education and personal financial management in this episode segment with John Brandy on the Simple Success podcast. Learn more about Simple Success with John Brandy using our all-in-one access link here Visit the Simple Success with John Brandy website today! We also have websites, and you can subscribe to both podcasts. You can even send us a video, audio or text message, but of course, you'll have to head to the show notes, either on your phone or on the web, to actually get links and stuff. I mean, I COULD read the URLs where you can subscribe, support or leave one of those video or audio messages, but you really don't want me to do that. And those explicit and clickable links are in the show notes. Simple Success Website: https://www.simplesuccesswithjohnbrandy.com/ A Choice Voice Website: https://www.achoicevoice.com/ iOS Link for Simple Success: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/simple-success-with-john-brandy/id1549566678 Droid Link for Simple Success: https://podcasts.google.com/search/simple%20success%20with%20john%20brandy iOS Link for A Choice Voice: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-choice-voice-with-john-brandy/id1560026051 Droid Link for A Choice Voice: https://podcasts.google.com/search/a%20choice%20voice%20with%20john%20brandy Support: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/support https://anchor.fm/achoicevoice/support Voice Messages: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/message https://anchor.fm/achoicevoice/message Finally, you can find us on Podmatch, where we consider guests as well as consider guesting on other people's pods. Podmatch Host Profile https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1611285111512x890580376127176400?return=true Podmatch Guest Profile https://podmatch.com/guestdetailpreview/1611285111512x890580376127176400?return=true And really finally, the music for our pods comes from “Cute” by Bensound, and from “Piano Background” by Nick Simon Adams, both on freesound.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/support

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer John Gaspard. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I'm a Blubrry affiliate, but that's not the only reason I'm telling you this. I've been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you're in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it's a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn't require a long-term contract, and it's just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn't that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I've included an affiliate link on this blog. Here's a link to a PDF copy of the interview. Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series. He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. Bobbie Raymond. I believe I have that right. In addition to three standalone novels, he has written several books about low budget filmmaking. Now that's an interesting subject. Coming to us from Minnesota, my guest today is John Gaspard. Hi, John, did I pronounce that correctly? John: You did. You pronounced it one of the two ways that is acceptable. My wife is more persistent about Ronnie Gaspard, but I've always had Gaspard so I answer to either one. Debbi: Gaspard. Very French. John: Yes. Oh yes. It's like Smith in the phone book over there. Debbi: All right. Okay. By the way, I love the short story that you provided for your guest post. John: Great! Thank you. Debbi: I just want to say that if you out there have not read it, any listeners have not read it, I would highly recommend you go to my blog and take a look at it. It's fun and it even comes with an animated video, which I loved. it's on my blog on my website and it's a great way to sample John's writing and Eli Marks. What prompted you to write this particular series about this kind of protagonist? John: Well, boy, that's a really good question. I had written a standalone suspense novel called The Ripperologists about people who are experts on Jack the Ripper who have to solve a current day recreation of the crimes, and I liked the process, but that particular story didn't have what I thought were a lot of legs. I was a big fan of the writer Lawrence Block and the different series that he had. His Matthew Scudder series, which is pretty hardboiled, and then his Bernie Rhodenbarr burglar series which is more lighthearted and a little goofier, and I really liked that. I'd liked something in that mold and was looking for a hero. In The Ripperologists, there had been a dynamic of a crotchety old expert and a younger whippersnapper guy, and I liked that so I created Eli Marks, the magician who's in his thirties and his uncle Harry, who had essentially raised him who's in his eighties. Harry is a master magician. He has worked in all forms of professional stage magic, close up magic, kids' magic,

“Doubting Thomas: You said you have Shiny Object Syndrome. John: Yes, I admit that I do. When I see… Doubting Thomas: Or are shown… John: Right, or when I am shown something new, some little solution on the computer, I have a tendency to go try it out now, even though I have more important things to do.” Learn all about financial education and personal financial management in this episode segment with John Brandy on the Simple Success podcast. Learn more about Simple Success with John Brandy using our all-in-one access link here Visit the Simple Success with John Brandy website today! Our Simple Success Website: https://www.simplesuccesswithjohnbrandy.com/ Our A Choice Voice Website: https://www.achoicevoice.com/ Podcast Subscription: iOS Link for Simple Success: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/simple-success-with-john-brandy/id1549566678 Droid Link for Simple Success: https://podcasts.google.com/search/simple%20success%20with%20john%20brandy iOS Link for A Choice Voice: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-choice-voice-with-john-brandy/id1560026051 Droid Link for A Choice Voice: https://podcasts.google.com/search/a%20choice%20voice%20with%20john%20brandy Support: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/support https://anchor.fm/achoicevoice/support Voice Messages: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/message https://anchor.fm/achoicevoice/message Finally, you can find us on Podmatch, where we consider guests as well as consider guesting on other people's pods. Podmatch Host Profile https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1611285111512x890580376127176400?return=true Podmatch Guest Profile https://podmatch.com/guestdetailpreview/1611285111512x890580376127176400?return=true And really finally, the music for our pods comes from “Cute” by Bensound, and from “Piano Background” by Nick Simon Adams, both on freesound.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/support

We all have something we want to pursue, a goal or an objective we want to reach. We might not always know what it is from the get-go, but as we go on, we can find what we value doing the most. Now, there may be obstacles in our paths, making it feel like our goals are but unachievable and improbable dreams. However, when you are pursuing what you value, nothing can stop you from achieving your destiny.   In this episode, world-renowned human behaviour specialist Dr John Demartini joins us to inspire you to start pursuing what you value. He shares advice and a range of wonderful stories on this topic. Learning about delegation can greatly help you with pursuing what you value. We also talk about the neuroscience of flow states and getting people to understand the quality of your work. If you're mulling over starting your journey to doing what you love, listen to this episode! This might be the push you need to reach for what you've thought was improbable.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training and coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com. We can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, dramatically decreases over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting-edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost NAD+ levels in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity, rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. 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Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn about delegation and how you can utilise it to make the most out of your job. Discover the two different flow states that come into play when you're doing what you love best. Listen to a variety of enlightening stories that show how pursuing what you value can change your life.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #198: How to Prioritise and Reach Your Goals with Dr John Demartini Connect with Dr Demartini: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube Check out Elon Musk's interview on 60 Minutes. A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights [04:21] Achieving the Improbable No matter what obstacles you face, you will get up again if you have a big enough reason. Each of us has a set of priorities. At the very top is our destiny, which is non-negotiable. When you're pursuing what you value, you'll continue regardless of pleasure or pain.  By delegating low-priority things, you can go on pursuing what you value.  [09:20] The Importance of Delegation As long as you're doing your top priority, something that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Delegation frees up your time so you can pursue something that makes more income. However, when you don't recruit the right person, you end up losing money because you're having to micromanage and getting distracted.  [14:07] Hiring the Right People  Do the basics, such as references and background checks. Dr Demartini specifically asks what applicants would do if they never had to work another day in their life.  If they don't answer something close to the job description, he turns them down.  Don't hire somebody who can't see how the job you're offering can fulfil their highest value. Tune in to the full episode to hear how Dr Demartini helped one of his applicants pursue what they value! [26:06] Job Security vs. Pursuing What You Value Dr Demartini shares a story about how he guided a young man to chase after his dreams. He sees this man eight years later, the owner of eight franchises. Many people stay in their jobs because of security. However, quitting work and pursuing what you value is your choice. Dr Demartini's recalls a time when he accompanied a ditch digger to work. He was so proud of his job, as he brings water—and life—to people. It doesn't matter if the job seems small, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  [44:30] Taking Pride in What You Do When your identity revolves around pursuing what you value, the higher your pride is in your workmanship. You'll excel in whatever you do, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  People who are pursuing what they value go beyond what is expected of them. Whether you start early or late, you can always begin pursuing what you value.  Master planning is a way to get there quickly. [46:26] The Neuroscience of Flow States There are two flow states. The manic flow state is a high that does not last long, as it is driven by the amygdala and dopamine. You get into your real flow state when you are pursuing what you value—something truly inspiring and meaningful.  In the real flow state, you're willing to embrace both pain and pleasure while you are pursuing what you value. Dr Demartini likens the two states to infatuation versus love. Infatuation is short-lived and only sees the positives; love endures even the negatives.  Manic flow is transient; real flow is eternal. [53:33] Finding the Middle and Paying for Quality You shouldn't get over-excited about good things and over-depressed about bad ones. Stay in the middle. Looking at the downsides isn't cynicism. It shows that you have grounded objectives. Dr Demartini's father, who is in the plumbing business, carefully considers all variables before taking on a project. As such, he charges more than competitors. People will be more willing to pay for your work once you explain what sets it apart from others. If you get defensive about your work, you start to sound arrogant. Instead, try to be informative about the value of what you offer. [1:03:32] Staying Stable and Flexible  Dr Demartini is neither excited nor fearful about the future.  He looks at both sides so that he does not become too elated or depressed. Emulating this can help you be stable enough to keep pursuing what you value. Over support leads to juvenile dependency, while challenges encourage independence.  Adapt and do what needs to be done. If you can't delegate it to others, learn to do it yourself.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode [05:34] ‘Nothing mortal, can interfere with an immortal vision.' [07:00] ‘There's wisdom in not doing low priority things; there's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you.' [23:18] ‘Don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want can help them fulfil their highest value.' [44:37] ‘The pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most.' [50:26] ‘Fantasies aren't obtainable, objectives are.' [54:31] ‘If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside.' [1:06:22] ‘People can be really resourceful if somebody doesn't rescue them.'   About Dr Demartini Dr John Demartini has been a public speaker for nearly 50 years. He is a world-renowned specialist in human behaviour, researcher, author, and educator. He empowers people from all walks of life by sharing his knowledge on self-development and financial wellness. One of his fields of interest is personal development where he has developed a curriculum of programs. One of his seminars, The Breakthrough Experience, uses his revolutionary techniques, the Demartini Method and the Demartini Value Determination Process.  If you want to learn more about Dr Demartini and his work, you may visit his website. You can also see him on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you were inspired to start pursuing what you value, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they too can be pushed to go after their passion. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: I want to welcome you back to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have Dr John Demartini. Now you may recognise that latter name. He's been on the show before. And he's definitely one that I want to have him back on again. He is an incredible teacher, and educator, and author of I don't know how many dozens of books. He's been working in the personal development in space for 50 years, I think. Incredible man.  I hope you enjoy part two of this very in-depth conversation about upgrading your life–how to grow your businesses. We talk about also how to reach your full potential. And what sort of things we put in our own way. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr John. Also, I would like to let you know we have a Boost Camp coming up. This is a, not a boot camp. It's all about upgrading your life. This is all about being the best version of yourself that you can be, upgrading everything in your life from your health fundamentals to things like sleep, and understanding your brain better your mood and behaviour. Lots and lots of science, and lots of information, and stuff that's going to be actually practical stuff that you can implement in your life to improve how you're performing your health, your vision and purpose in life. And aligning all of these things together.  I hope you'll come and join us. This is an eight-week program that is live with Neil Wagstaff and myself. Neil is my longtime coach and business partner. And he runs all the programs with me that we do with epigenetics, with running hot coaching, and so on. And he is an incredible teacher. I do hope you'll check it out. You can go to peakwellnessco.co.nz, peakwellness, p-e-a-k, peak wellness dot co dot NZ forward-slash boost camp, b-o-o-s-t-c-a-m-p. To find out more, and come and join us, it's going to be a fantastic writer and you're going to learn an awful lot and get to hang out with a whole bunch of people while you're doing it. So check that out.  I also like to remind you too, of our Patron program. We have a Patron program for the podcast to help us keep this on-air, keep us great content, to help us keep the mission going. If you're into doing that, please, for the price of a coffee or a month. Sorry, a coffee a month, you can be involved in this project. And you can also get a whole lot of exclusive member benefits for your troubles. So check all that out at patron.lisatamati.com, p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisa tamati dot com. Right. Now, over to the show with Dr John Demartini.  Hi, everyone. And welcome back to Pushing The Limits. I'm super excited to have an amazing name back again for a second round, Dr John Demartini. Welcome to the show, Dr John. It's fabulous to have you back again.  Dr John: Demartini: Yes, thank you for having me back.  Lisa: It's just–I was so blown away by our conversation last time. And I know you do thousands of these interviews and in the work that you do that you probably can't even remember what you talked about. But it was a real life-changing episode that ended up– we dived into some of your medical work earlier. We went all over the place with your breakthrough experience. I just felt like we didn't quite cover all the bases that I want to tap into your great knowledge.  Having you back again today, and today I thought we'd look at things like I want to dive into things like, ‘How do we achieve the impossible?' I've been doing a lot of work and researching around, what is it that makes incredible people incredible? And that they had the ability to overcome incredible odds and difficulties and obstacles in order to achieve some possible things. And I'm pretty much into a lot of the big thinkers out there. So I wanted to start directly if that's okay. How do we achieve the impossible, Dr John?  Dr John: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's a bit of a metaphor–the impossible is impossible.  Lisa: But yeah, it's a metaphor.  Dr John: Improbable, the improbable.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr John: When the why is big enough the hows take care of thems elves. When you have a big enough reason for doing something, no matter how many obstacles you face, you get up again. And there was an interview. There was an interview by a gentleman I think from 60 minutes with Elon Musk. And they asked him after having three launches explode back to back. ‘You ever think about giving up?' He looked at the guy and he says, ‘I never give up. I'd have to be incapacitated.' Meaning that his mission to go to Mars is too important for any obstacle that might arise to stop it. I would say nothing mortal can interfere with an immortal vision.  Each of us, as you know, have a set of priorities. And the very top, top, top priority is non-negotiable. It's where human sovereignty and divine providence come together, where you feel that it's impossible for you not to fulfil your true destiny. I feel that way with my mission of speaking. I just felt that that was my destiny when I was 17. And I've been doing it 48 plus years now, be soon 49 in a few months. So if you'd have a big enough reason for doing it, you'll see the challenges on the way, not in the way. It's like Edison, a thousand ways to that didn't work for the light bulb to get the light bulb. There was no option about getting a light bulb, he knew he would come up with an answer, he just kept, ‘Okay, that doesn't work. Okay, next. That one doesn't work, next.'  When things are lower on your value, you'll do it if there's pleasure; you'll stop doing it if there's pain. When something's tying your value, you'll do it regardless of pleasure or pain. And you'll see both of them on the way, not in the way. So there's wisdom in not doing low-priority things. There's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you. People who do that build incremental momentum that reaches an unstoppable state, an inertia that's unstoppable. That's the key to extraordinary things. And when it's truly aligned with your value, your identity revolves around it, you feel it's impossible for you not to do it. It's not an option; it's who you are. Lisa: So this involves looking at your values determination, how to sort out what your real– because I think this is where a lot of us come unstuck. We have lots of things we want to do, and we're curious about lots of things and have lots of passions, and it's sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in order, distilling down that vision so that you're actually hyper-focused and being able to concentrate on the things that you need to concentrate on. I know that's something that I definitely struggle with, when you have so many things that you're interested in. But you're really right when you say like, for me, with my story with my mom, if you remember bringing her back from the mess of aneurysm, there was a non-negotiable. We were doing it, and I was going to get her back or die trying was the attitude that I went inwards. That means sacrificing whatever it took to get to that place. And then we do get there, you know?  Dr John: Well, the thing is not to pursue low-priority things, and to know what those are, and say and delegate everything other than what's important. I don't do anything but research, write, teach. Those are the three things I love doing. But it's all about educating people in human behaviour. So that's the one thing that is non-negotiable that I do. Then I delegate everything else away. That way, you don't have to be distracted and run down. What drains you is doing low priority things. Lisa: Yeah. And this is a lot– yeah, this is a lot that a lot of people, especially startup entrepreneurs, and people that are just getting there, finding your way, are struggling with: the whole delegation thing when they don't have a team around them. What sort of advice do you want to give to people who are at the beginning of their career and don't have a team yet around them to help do all those aspects of it that are draining the hell out of their lives? Dr John: Well, what you do is you ask the question, ‘How is doing this action temporarily until I can find somebody to delegate it to helping me fulfil my mission?' Link it to your brain. Reframe its words. You see it on the way, not in a way, with the knowing that you're going to delegate it. And then, it doesn't cost to delegate. It costs not to. As long as you're doing what's highest in priority that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Because you're releasing yourself to do the most important thing that produces the most income that produces more than the cost of the delegation, and that they can produce. And yet the person that would love to do that inspired to do that but doesn't have to be motivated to do that. They will spontaneously do it without even thinking about it, you can free yourself up. In 1982, end of 1982, I hired somebody to take care of my financial things: paying payroll, paying bills, bank reconciliations, all that stuff. Because I was sitting there in October of 1982. I was sitting there doing a bank balance, like, ‘What on earth am I doing?' I didn't want to do it. It was distracting, time-consuming. And while I was doing it, I didn't want to think about clients because it was interfering. I needed to get this done, and I'm pushing clients away. I freed that up, and I have not gone back, nor even seen a chequebook. That's 1982. Lisa: Gosh I would love that.  Dr John: I can't even tell you what a chequebook in my company looks like. Lisa: Or accounting or any software.  Dr John: I don't have any of that stuff. I have somebody that does that. That's their job. I– because that's a 20 to $50 an hour job. And why do I value my time? Well, I can make thousands per hour, and tens of thousands per hour. Lisa: But what about the people that can't make the ten thousands of per hour or the thousands per hour, and there's still a net, they're still in taking that leap into getting the first person in the team on board and the second person. I think there's a lot of people in that, jumping from, say, the $100,000 mark to the million-dollar mark of a turnover in a company where it's chaos. I think it's chaos beyond that as well. But it's that getting the initial, taking that risk when you don't have a solid income yet, and yet, you're taking a risk on hiring a business manager or hiring whatever, even assistants. Dr John: If you have a clear job description and you have a clear actions that you can do that can produce more per hour than having to do those things, and you can see, ‘Well, I'm doing five hours a day doing trivial. If I had those five hours, could I go out and close deals?' If you're willing to do that it doesn't cost, ever cost, to hire people.  Lisa: Yeah. So it's a mindset shift, really?  Dr John: Yeah. Because what happens is you think, well, if you're not going to be productive, and they're now, you're just going to pay somebody to do something you were doing, and you're not going to go produce more per hour than it's going to cost. But it frees you up to do something that closes a deal or makes a bigger deal. Makes more income. You're insane not to do it. Now, in my situation, I saw that if I was out doing presentations and taking care of clients, I can make more than tenfold what is going to cost, 20-fold to 100-fold what I was going to pay somebody to do it. It's a no-brainer.  It doesn't cost to hire somebody. Unless you do it ineffectively. You are somebody who doesn't love doing it, you're pushing him uphill, is not inspired by it, and you have the skill by it, and you're micromanaging him and you're having to distract yourself, and you're not doing the thing that produces. That's why it costs money. Not because of delegation, but inadequate delegation. Lisa: So in other words, recruiting the right people to your team is a huge piece of this and getting the right— So what are some of the things that you do when you're analysing somebody to take on into your team? What are some of the processes that you go through from an entrepreneurial standpoint? Dr John: Well, I do all the basics: references and checks and those things. But I just sit them down when I meet them if they get through the screening. I sit down with them. I said, ‘If I was to write a check right now for $10 million and handed it to you, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do with your life?' If they're, they don't say what the job is or close to it, I say, ‘Thank you very much.' I walk away.  Lisa: Right? Because they're not. That's not the key thing.  Dr John: That's not their dream. Can I share an interesting story? I don't think I shared this before. Sorry. If I had, just tell me, cut me off. When I was in practice many years ago, I was hiring a manager, and I was scaling up and delegating more and more. We were down to two people's potentials: one was a woman, one was a man. And the man was in for that evening, about five o'clock. I worked till six, usually, but at five, I was telling my patients, five o'clock, this gentleman comes in. He had passed much of the things I thought. But he came into my office. He had a little briefcase, is about 54, looks like a violator jet, this guy. He comes in, sits down on the edge of his chair, and he says, ‘Wow, this is a great opportunity. I've had the opportunity to work with your company would be fantastic. I'm awe-inspired.' I said, ‘Great. Hope you don't mind. But I just got a few questions.' And I had a check. This is back before I got rid of my checks. I got a check that my lady at the front organised. I had the check in front of me. And I said, ‘Your proper name is?' I put his name on the cheque. I wrote 10 million US dollars.  Lisa: It was a real piece?  Dr John: I didn't sign it, but I just put it there. I made sure he saw it. Because any facade he might have, if he saw a check with $10 million on it, his name on it, that's going to distract him. Because the infatuation of that's going to throw any facade that he might try to put on me, ultimately. So I said, ‘If I was to hand you this cheque,' and I showed him the cheque. ‘And I gave you $10 million upfront, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do?'  Lisa: What did he say?  Dr John: And he leaned back in his chair like this. He goes, he relaxed a second. He goes, ‘Wow, if I had $10 million. What would I do? I would manufacture furniture. I have a hobby. I love making furniture. I'd make furniture and open up furniture companies.' I said, I got up. I said, ‘Thanks very much.' He stood up and he was like, ‘What?' He said, ‘Well, did I get the job?' I said, ‘No.' ‘Do you mind if I ask why?' I said, ‘Very simple. I'm hiring you for a management position. You said if you had $10 million, you'd love to make furniture. If you're a great manager, how come you haven't managed your life in such a way where you can do what you love?' He just looked at me and he just paused because that's a very good question. ‘And I have nothing I could say, except, you just woke me up.' I said, ‘Thank you,' and I escort him out.  I watched him walk with his head down slowly to his car and sit in his car for a few minutes to just process that. He's like going, ‘Whoa. I thought I'm looking for a job. I'm enthused, I'm really excited, everything else. And I just got slammed with a reality check of what was really important to me. And the real truth was, is I love making furniture.' So he sat in that car, and finally slowly drove off and we ruled him out. We ruled the girl out. So we had to go through another round. Yeah.  Lisa: And so this is part of the process.  Dr John: Three weeks had gone by. And all of a sudden my assistant said. ‘Dr Demartini, there's a gentleman here a few weeks ago that was looking for a job. He's back.' ‘Alright, okay.' He said, she said ‘Should I just sent him back in?' I said, ‘Yeah.' I come down to the same office, same thing, comes in. I'm sitting in the same place, you sit in the same place. But this time, he walks in with a paper bag, a big paper bag, large paper bag with handles on. He said, ‘Dr Demartini,' shook my hand. He said, ‘Dr Demartini. I was here a few weeks ago,' I said, ‘Oh. Yeah, I remember you.' He said, ‘You changed my life.' I said, ‘How so?' He said, ‘When I was enthusiastic looking for the job, I've been looking for a job for three months. I didn't find one. I thought when you said, if I'm such a good manager, how come I haven't managed my own life? And you nailed me. I was a bit depressed after that, and I had a soul searching, and I had a conversation with my wife. Part of the reasons I was taking on jobs is for security instead of doing what I really love to do. And so after that conversation, I told my wife that and I said, “If I was to go out and try to build my own company in furniture manufacturing, would you endure the, whatever we go through to get there?” And she hugged him, and she says, “That's what you've always wanted to do. We'll make ends meet. We'll find a way.”'  He started his company. He started telling people he's there to make furniture and he started making pieces of furniture. He made a bed, and he made a dresser, and he started making furniture and stuff. He also made it available that he could do interior in homes that were being built. He started letting people know in his network. So he's back in my office three weeks later, and he told me that that's the best thing ever happened to his life. He says, ‘I've already got commissioned $5,400 worth of product with the furniture, and that's in three weeks. I'm on track, probably for making $10,000 to my first month now. And that's more than what I was probably going to get paid.'  I said, ‘Congratulations.' And this is what he said to me. He said, ‘You have no idea how much more energy I have, how inspired I am. I don't care about how many hours it is I'm working. I'm staying up, and I'm a different man. I'm loving it. I'm in, I now understand what an entrepreneur is, a bit.' And he said, ‘But this is what I want to do. Because you gave me such a gift. When I came in your office, I noticed the wood. Because you filter with your polar nuclei of your diencephalonic thalamus. You put, you filter reality coin, what you value most. So he noticed the wood in my office.  He said, ‘And I noticed that you had Kleenex boxes sitting on these little rolling carts. It would really be honourable for me if I could actually take those little Kleenex boxes, and melt my Kleenex box systems on your wall that match your wood. All you do is lift them up on a hinge, put the Kleenex box and pull the tissue, put it back down to replace it. And then you have more space on your thing, because I noticed you had less space on there than probably ideal. It really means a lot to me if I can put them in all your rooms.' I said, ‘I would be honoured to have those in there. And I want you to do me a favour. I want you to put your card on the bottom of each one. So I can, for referrals.' He said, ‘I would be glad to do that.' He said, ‘But that would mean a lot. Because you just changed my life.'  He ended up doing what he really loved to do, grew his business. I got complimentary things in all my rooms, which was an added bonus. But it just goes to show that people, when they're doing something that's deeply meaningful, truly inspiring, high in priority, they excel. So don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want to help them fulfil their highest value. Lisa: Be it personal and be it roles. And not this division of the company. Dr John: The actual actions. So you make sure you have a job description with all the actions and you ask your potential candidate: ‘How specifically is doing this actually going to help you fulfil what's most deeply meaningful to you?' If they can't answer it, don't hire them. If they answer with enthusiasm on all those things, you get them, grab them. If they don't, don't worry because they're going to be microman— you're gonna have to motivate them. Motivation is a symptom, never a solution to humanity. Lisa: And in changing that, I've got a friend Joe Polish. If you know Joe, he's a very famous marketing man and an incredible connector and so on. He talks about, he was talking about entrepreneurship one day, I forget the context of the situation. But he teaches about entrepreneurial things, how to do it. He's hugely successful. Someone said to him once, ‘You've had the same assistant for the last 21 years, for how many years, a lot of years. If she's been hearing you talk about how wonderful it is to be an entrepreneur to do all these things, how come she hasn't gotten that information and runoff and become her own entrepreneur?'  He called the lady over and he said, ‘Why is it that you still with me?' He knew the answer. But she answered, ‘Because I don't want to take on the risk. That's not my job. That's not my passion. My passion is to serve Joe and be the person in the backstage setting all those things up. That is my highest power. That is what I love. That's why I'm still here. I love working with Joe, and I love his mission. And that's what I'm happy doing.' That's the key, is not everybody should be an entrepreneur. Or everybody should be having the same mission. It's that she understands what her passions, what the job is. Dr John: If everybody was an entrepreneur, who would be working for him? Lisa: Yeah. We'd have a hell of a mess. And being an entrepreneur is a long, arduous, often difficult, lonely road full of holes, along the way, potholes. It isn't for everybody, but for people like you and for me, it's, I can go for it. I've got to be running my own ship. And learning from people like you is great for me because then I can see what helps my next steps and what I should be doing. Instead of—  Dr John: Can I share another story?  Lisa: Go for it. Dr John: So, right about the same time when I was hiring that other person, a young gentleman, late 20s, I'm guessing, mid to late 20s, came into my office, and asked if he could have a meeting with me. And he worked with Yellow Pages. There used to be a thing called Yellow Page.  Lisa: Yeah. I'm old enough.  Dr John: They were ads, telephone ads. You put a listing, it's free. But if you put a listing with a little box or a little ad in it, it's a little bit more. You bought the Yellow Page ad. So he was trying to sell Yellow Page ad. So he sat in my office. And he started to do this little spiel. And I had the time. So I took a moment to do it. Because I was curious what the prices were. And at the end of his little spiel, and not even to the end, three quarters through, I stopped him. I said ‘Stop. Just stop.' That was the worst presentation. That was so off. I said, ‘This is not what you want to do in life. What do you really want to do in life?' And he looked at me and he goes, ‘That bad?' And I said, ‘It was bad.' ‘I bet you haven't sold anything.' He says, ‘No, I haven't.' I said, ‘This is not you. What's your heart? Where's your heart? What do you really, really, really, really dream about doing in your career?' He said, ‘I want to be in the restaurant business.' I said, ‘Go to a restaurant today to get a job there, and work your way up until you own your restaurant.' He goes, ‘Well, I needed to hear that. Because I respect you and I needed to hear that from you.' And then I sold him a little audio cassette tape that I'd done, called The Psychology of Attainment. And he bought it, it was only 10 bucks.  He walked out with his $10 thing to listen to because I knew if he listened to it, it would encourage him to keep it going. He left there. Eight years go by, never seen the guy again. Eight years go by. I had moved to a new office. And I was on my way to go have lunch with my CPA. He picked me up. I came downstairs, he picked me up, took me to this little Super Salad restaurant nearby because we both had less than an hour to eat. So it's quick. Get in there and get a salad. You walk in and this Super Salad is a thing where you get a tray, and it's got a whole bunch of foods. And whatever it is they weigh it, and they charge you the acquired weight. So you get salad. You pay less if you get something with it.  As I walked in, and we started going to the line, I saw that young man grown up eight years older in this suit, talking to another man in a suit. And I said, ‘If you don't mind going get me a tray. And I'll catch up. I see someone I must say hi to.' I walk over to this guy. He's talking this man. He's not paying attention to me. I'm standing right next to him. And as he's talking I'm just standing there waiting for him to finish. All of a sudden he finishes, the guy starts to walk off he turns around as if he's going to say, ‘Can I help you?'  Lisa: Yeah, he didn't realise this.  Dr John: And obviously he looks at me and he goes, ‘Oh my god. Wow, wow.' He shook my hand, and ran off and got the other guy to come here, ‘This is the guy I told you about.' And he told him, ‘This is the guy.' And the guy said, ‘Oh, thank you. I'd love to meet you. He's told me all about you, he said you changed his life.' And I said, ‘Well didn't know until today. What impact– Lisa: What are you doing? Yeah. Dr John: But the guy told me, he says, ‘I have eight franchises. I come into my restaurant. That was the manager. I'm checking up on my restaurants and I'll go to the next one. I check them out once a week, I go make my rounds.' He said, ‘That day, I got me a job at Super Salad. I worked myself into a management position for over two years. As I was saving the heck out of my money, which your tape set said to do, I bought into the franchises and I got eight franchises.' Lisa: Jesus! Just from that one tape, that one conversation, see this is the impact– Dr John: I said to him, ‘You just inspired me.' It brought a tear to my eye to know that– because I thought maybe I was a bit tough on you. He said, ‘Sir, you did the most amazing thing to my life that day. Because the truth is, I wanted to be in the restaurant business. And now I am.' Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing The Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a Patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisatamati dot com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: You've encouraged him basically to have faith in the dream and to– because everybody else, like your family, often your friends, often are, ‘You can't leave that safe job.' I've had this conversation with my husband who's a firefighter. And he says like, ‘I can never leave the fire brigade because it's what I've always done. And that's how I've always, you know, it was my passion,' and so on. And I said, ‘Yes, but you don't have to stay there. That's your choice. Opt for security and– If you want security, if you want to do something, then do it. Life is short.' Dr John: All I know is that if you're not doing something you're inspired by, life can be pretty horrible. I see people. I didn't, I used to get, I lived in New York for a while. And we lived in Trump Tower there, fifty-sixth and fifth, right underneath Donald, so I knew Donald. So I live there for 29 years. And sometimes, you can take taxi. Sometimes, you take, when we're going in the airport, I got a limo. But just going around the city, sometimes I'd have a taxi. I get in the taxi and I– if there was a mess, sometimes I'd pass it by. I go, ‘No, smelly. No, no respect.' But again, in a taxi– if I'm in a hurry, it's hard to get, right? It's 3:30 to 4 o'clock march, I get in whatever I get, because I don't want to wait another 20 minutes. But I get it and I go, ‘How long have you been driving a taxi?' And they'll say a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, whatever it may be. I said, ‘Do you love it?' Some will look in the mirror and go, ‘Pays the bills, man.' And I said, ‘But do you love it?' He goes, ‘Are you kidding, man? If I got a thing in New York, you got to be nuts.' And they have that attitude.  Of course, the car is usually a mess. It's got ripped holes in it. It's got cigarette burns. It's got a little bit of an odour. You know it's not taken cared of; it's not clean. But then you get in another car. And, ‘How long have you driven a taxi?' ‘28 years.' I said, ‘Do you love it?' ‘I love it. I get to meet people like yourself. I meet the most amazing people every day. My father was a taxi driver. My grandfather was a taxi driver in New York. I know every city, every street, I know every part of the city. Here's my card. You want some water?' ‘Sure.' ‘Anything you need to let, give me feedback about my car, please tell me. If there's something not in order, if somebody left something there, if it's dirty, let me know. I'd like to make sure that everybody gets a good experience in my car. If you want to know about the city, you just ask me. Anytime you want to go anywhere in the city, you contact me. And there's my card, I will take you, and I'll make sure you got the best thing, and I'll be on time for you.' He was just engaged. And he loved it. And of course, I got his card. And I called him. And sometimes when I was going around the city, I would use him. He would even come back and pick me up. Lisa: And it shows you that it doesn't matter if you're cleaning toilets or you're a taxi driver or you're at the garbage disposal. Whatever job you're doing, do it well, for starters. That can be your mission in life, is to provide that service. It doesn't have to be taking on the world and flying to Mars like Elon Musk. It's just, do your job; do it well. I don't, I just– I have issue too, with people who just doing the job, getting the paycheck, not doing the job with passion.  You can tell. I walk into my gym and there's a new lady on reception who is just beaming from ear to ear, fully enthusiastic. I see her training; she trains like a maniac. She's just always happy and positive. When somebody comes into that gym now, they get a positive smiley receptionist. ‘Come in' and ‘How was your day?' The contrast to the other person that works at the gym who's surly looking, never smiles. And if you, say ‘Hello, how are you doing?' It's like, ‘Mmm.' And you think, ‘Wow, that is just the difference between someone who's just, “I'm so lucky to be here” and “I'm working.”'  Dr John: They're engaged versus disengaged. Can I share another story?  Lisa: This is great.  Dr John: Right. My father, I started working for my father when I was four. He owned a plumbing business. He wasn't a plumber. He's an engineer, but he had plumbers working for him. And my job was to clean the nipples. And they sound a little sexual, but it's actually, these little pipes and couplings, so it's interesting. But I used to scrape them out with a brush and oil them to make sure they would be preserved because they'll get a little rusty sitting around. Then, my dad would then, every once while, not every day, but most of the time, would give me the opportunity to go out with the plumbers to go on calls to learn plumbing. Everyone, so he would say, ‘Well, you're going to go with Joe today. You're going to go with Bob. You're going to go with Warren. You're going to go with…' And this one day, he said, ‘You're going to go with Jesse.'  I spend part of the day with Jesse. And Jesse was a ditch digger. He was an Afro-American man that was a ditch digger. And I said, ‘You want me to go with Jessie, am I going to dig a ditch?' He said, ‘Yes. I want you to go with Jesse.' I said, ‘Why?' He said, ‘You'll know when you get back.' ‘Okay.' So I go out with Jesse. We drive to this house that is about a 35-year-old house that needs a new water main from the street, the main from the street up to the house. And so he got a T-bar out, and he got a hose, and he got some paper, and he got a sharpshooter, which is a special shovel, and a little round-headed shovel, and a level and a string. This long string thing wrapped up on this piece of wood. And some, and another stick. The stick that had string around it where there are two sticks on either end. You could open them up unravelling. He stayed one at one place, stayed the other place, exactly where the line is going to go. Then he took a T-bar and went down into the ground to make sure there's no roots, no rocks, no anything that might interfere with the laying of a pipe. Then he watered it to make sure that you could go and if you dug it, it was just wet enough that it wouldn't crumble if you turn the sod over. And then he lined paper on one side of it. And then he showed me how to dig the ditch. I would go down to exactly the width of the sharpshooter, which is how deep it had to go. And then we would turn it over onto the paper. And that meant that the grass wasn't even cut, it was just folded over. Right. And we had a perfectly straight ditch. And then he showed me how to create the ditch with this other little thing. And it would go on top of the sides. It wouldn't fall off into the grass. It would just be on top of the paper, and on the inside. Then he took the level and he made sure that the grade was perfectly level from one place to the other because if you have a dip in it, water will sit there and rust and it'll wear out quicker. But if it flows exactly in line, you don't get as many rusting. We put this pipe down, pretty perfectly clear, perfectly graded. We levelled it, made sure it was perfectly level. We installed it to the house, into the main. We then put some of the dirt back over it. Put the sod back on, patted it down, watered it, squished it down, loosened up the grass so you couldn't even tell it had ever been done now. And we had a brand new waterline done. And when you're done, you could not, until you could walk around, you couldn't tell it was done. It was perfect. And then we got in the truck and started to drive off. And I asked, you know, Jesse, his name was. I said, ‘That was neat.' You know, I'm a young kid. And I said, ‘Call me J for John.' He said, ‘J, I have the greatest job on this planet, the greatest job a man could ever, ever, ever ask for.' And I said, ‘What do you mean?' I thought he's a ditch digger. He said, ‘Without water, people die. I bring life to people. My job is the most important job. They can't bathe. They can't drink. They can't make food. They can't do anything without my water pipe. I had the most important job on this planet. And I bring water to people. Without water people die.' And I thought, ‘Whoa.' And I came back and he said to me, ‘My job is to do such an amazing job that they call the office and complain that we never came.'  Lisa: Because they can't see where he's been!  Dr John: It's so immaculate. They don't believe that somebody came and they'll call and cuss out your dad. “Why is it not, why did you not do the main?” And your dad knows. Tell them, “If you don't mind just walk out. They will see that the main is there.”' They're unbelievably astonished that there was no mess and it's perfect. And he didn't tell us about Jesse, and the respect he does when he does water main. He knew that if I would go out there and learn from him, here's a man that does what he loves. Yeah, and he's the ditch digger. And in those days, you didn't make a little bit, you didn't make a lot of money. Lisa: And I love that. And it just reminds me of my dad. He was always cleaning up at the garden. He was a firefighter professionally, but he would be, every spare moment, gardening somebody's garden, cleaning up, landscaping, doing it. And he worked on films as a landscape artist and so on. He was always the one that was cleaning everything up, everything was immaculate by the end of the day. Whereas every, all the other workers were just, ‘Down tools. It's five o'clock, we're off,' sort of thing. Drop it and run. Everything was always a mess.  My dad, he always had everything perfectly done. And was, always came home satisfied because he'd spent, when he wasn't at the fire brigade, he spends his day with his hands in the dirt, out on the sun, physically working in nature, and loving it and doing a proper job of it. So yeah, it just reminded me because he taught us all those things as we were growing up too. And would take us and teach us how to paint and teach us how to, all of these things.  Dr John: The more something is high on your value that you're doing, your identity revolves around your highest value. Whatever is highest on your value, your identity revolves around. As a result of it, the pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most. Because you're inspired and love doing it. And it's, your identity goes around it. So my identity would rather revolve around teaching. So I'm inspired to do teaching. I can't wait to do it.  Whatever high an individual's values is what they're going to excel at most. And they are wanting to do it not because they have to, but because they love to. People do something they love to, completely do a different job than people that have to. They're creative, innovative. They go out of their way. They don't care if they have to work extra time. They don't care about those things because they're doing what they love. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. You have some fabulous stories to illustrate the point. So whatever you're doing people, do it properly, and do it with passion, and try to get to where you want to. You might, this just takes time to get to where you want to go. You come out of school, you're not going to end up being near the top of your game. But you have to start somewhere and head towards what your passion is. I wanted to figure— Dr John: If you start out right at the very beginning, master planning, you can get there pretty quick. In 18 months, I went from doing everything, to do the two or three things that I did most effectively. I delegated the rest away. But my income went up tenfold.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah. Because you were actually doing the things that mattered the most. Dr John: Me going out and speaking and me doing the clinical work was the two things that I was, because that's the thing I went to school for. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to do the administrative or I didn't want to do all that other stuff. Hire people to do that. That freed me up. Lisa: Yeah, it's a fantastic message. Now, I wanted to flip directions on you if I could, and I've been doing a lot of study around flow states and optimising. How do we build into ourselves this ability to be operating at our best, which we've been talking a little bit about? What neurotransmitters are at play when we're in a flow state? How do we maintain this over time to remain inspired and not be worn down?  We think about flow state or I don't know how to put this into words, people. By that I mean, it's that state where you're just on fire, where everything's happening really well, you're at your genius place, your talents are being expressed properly, and you're just in it. I would get that when I'm running, or when I was making jewellery and I would, time would disappear, and I'd be just in this otherworldly place, almost sometimes. How do we tap into that? Because that is where we as human beings can be our optimal, be our best. Have you got any ideas around that as far as the neurotransmitters and the neuroscience of flow states? Dr John: Yes. It boils down to the very same thing I was saying a moment ago: not doing low priority things. There's two flow states though, and they get confused. Maybe people have confused a manic elated, utopic, euphoric high, which is a fantasy of all positives, no negatives in the brain that makes you manic. That flow state is a hypocriticality, amygdala-driven, dopamine-driven fantasy high that won't last.  Then there's a real flow state. When you're doing something that's truly inspiring and deeply meaningful, you get tears in your eyes getting to do it. You're not having a hypocriticality, you're having a supercriticality, where the very frontal cortex is actually activated, not the lateral but the medial one, and you're now present. It's the gratitude centre; it's grace. There you're in the flow because you're doing something you really love to do that you feel is your identity. That's where time stops.  Some people confuse a manic episode with that state. But a manic episode crashes. But the real flow state is inspired. That's when you're able to do what you love doing consistently. When Warren Buffett is doing, reading business statements, and financial statements, and deciding what companies to buy, this is what he loves doing. For me, I'm studying human behaviour and anything to do with the brain, and mind, and potential, and awareness. I'm that way. I can lose track of all time and just be doing it for hours. It's not a manic state. That's an inspired state. An inspired state is an intrinsically driven state where you're willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of it.  You love tackling challenges and solving problems, and you'll just research and research or do whatever you're doing, and you just keep doing it because you won't stop. That's not a manic episode. Although manics can look similar, there's a difference. Though a manic state comes from the dopamine, you got a high dopamine, usually high serotonin, you got encapsulants, endorphins. But you also don't have, you're not perceiving the downsides. You're just seeing all upsides. You are blinded by little fantasy about what's going to happen. And that eventually catches you, because that it's not obtainable. Fantasies are not obtainable, objectives are.  Eventually, the other side comes in, and osteocalcins comes in and norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol, the stress responses. Because all of, all of a sudden your fantasy's not being met. But when you think you're going after the fantasy, just think of it this way: when you're infatuated with somebody, you're enamoured. You're in this euphoria. All you see is the upside, and you're blind to the downside. Actually, at this time, you say, ‘I'm in love.' No, you're infatuated. And then when weeks go by, and months go by, you start to find out, ‘Oh, I was fooled. That person I thought was there is not who I thought.' And you find out about this person. And that's short-lived. Yeah.  When you actually know that human beings can have both sides, and you don't have a fantasy of one side, but you embrace both sides, and know that they're a human being with a set of values. If you can communicate and articulate what you want in terms of those values, you now have a fulfilling relationship. It's a long term relationship. It's not volatile. It's not manic depressive. It's just steady. That's the one that's the flow. That's what allows the relationship to grow. The manic thing is transient. The real flow is eternal. Lisa: So it's the difference between being in love, and infatuated, and being in actual true real long-term love. Dr John: Well, infatuation, people confuse with love. If I have an expectation on you to be nice, never mean; kind, never cruel; positive, never negative; peaceful, never wrathful, giving, never taking; generous, never stingy; considerate, never inconsiderate. If I have a fantasy about who you are and I'm high because I think I've found this person, that's ‘Oh, well, it's all one-sided.' It's not sustainable. No one's gonna live that way. But if I have an expectation, if they're a human being with a set of values, I can rely on them to do what's highest on their value, and nothing more. I respect their value, I see how it's serving my value, and I can appreciate what they're committed to, and don't have any expectation except them to do what they do. They won't let me down. And I'll be grateful for them. Lisa: Why didn't you tell her that when I was a 20-year-old finding the wrong people in my life? Relationship-wise, are you going after the wrong types of people? Dr John: If you go after it a little infatuation, you have to pay with a broken crush. You never have a broken heart; you have a broken fantasy. Eventually, it helps you actually learn to go after what's in your heart. Lisa: And value what is really important. Gosh, wouldn't it be nice to have had never met a lot sooner? Dr John: There's no mistake, so much happened, because you wouldn't be doing this project. Lisa: No. Then this is what every piece of crap that's ever come your way in life has got an upside and a downside. Because I hear in one of your lectures talking about this: don't get ever overexcited, and don't get really depressed. It's always in the middle. You put it so eloquently, it was, whenever something good happens to you, don't get too overly excited about it. And whenever something bad happens to you, don't get overly depressed about it. Because there's something in the middle of there. You're not seeing the downsides of that good thing, and you're not seeing the upsides.  I've actually integrated that now into my life. When something good, I used to have this thing, ‘Oh my god, I have this breakthrough. I've had this breakthrough.' And ‘This happened to me.' And then I'll go and talk about it. And, because I'm a very open person and I found actually that's not good in a couple of ways. Because I'm overexcited about it. I've ticked it off in my brain almost as being happened. Dr John: If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside. Lisa: Yeah. And you think it's already happened. Say you meet someone, new possible job, or it's a possible contract, or something like that. And you got all excited about it. Because you've got you've initiated the process, but in your brain, you've already ticked that box and got the job and you're off.  Dr John: Then you undermine it. And you said it's related about a job opportunity. You usually have it taken away from you. You're mostly unready for it. If you're really ready for the job opportunity, you're going to know what it's going to take workwise to be able to get paid. You'll already get the downside and your objective. And know, ‘Oh, that's gonna be 28 hours of work here.'  Lisa: That's not cynical, that's not cynicism. That's actually not realism.  Dr John: It's grounded objectives. People who keep grounded objectives don't have job opportunities taken away from them. But people who get elated about it, brag about it, talk about it, almost inevitably disappears. Lisa: Wow. Okay. And so you got to be looking at, I've elated— a couple of opportunities come up that are possibly I'm thinking about doing. I'm like, ‘That one's gonna take so much work in this direction. That means going to be the sacrifice for you.' And the old me would have just gone, ‘Yeah. Let's do it, jump in. And I'm like, ‘Am I just getting old or is this actually a better way to be?' Dr John: My dad taught me something as a plumbing industry. He'd have to, they'd say, ‘Okay, we're going to build this house. Here's all the plumbing that's going to be involved in it.' They'd see the plans. He'd have to do an estimate. What would it cost to produce all that, put that together? If he got elated and he didn't do his cost, by the time he finishes, he didn't make any profit. But if he does his due diligence and knows all the responsibilities, what happens if it rains? What happens if there's delays? What happens if the permits are delayed? He puts all the variables in there and checks it all off. He then goes in to the customer and says, ‘This is what it's going to cost.'  He said, sometimes the customer would come to him and say, ‘Well, yeah. But this other one came in at $10,000 cheaper.' My dad would sit there and he would say to him, he said, ‘I want to show you something. I guarantee you, the man that comes in at $10,000 cheaper, is not going to be thinking of all the variables. You're going to end up not having the job that we're going to do. Let me make sure you understand this. You may not hire me, and that's okay. But I want to make sure you're informed you make a wise decision. Because if you don't, you're going to go pay that side to save $10,000, it's going to cost you an extra 10.'  Lisa: Yep. Been there, done that. Dr John: Well, my dad used to go through it, and with a fine-tooth comb, he explained all the different variables. He says, ‘Now, what I want you to do is go back to the person that's giving you those things and ask them all those questions. If they didn't think about it, they're going to either not make money off you and they're not going to want to continue to do the work. Or they're not going to do a great job because they're losing money. Or you're going to end up getting a thing done, then they're never going to want to do follow up and take care of you again as a customer. So here's what it costs. I've been doing this a long time. I know what it costs. I know what the property is. So I'd rather you know the facts, and be a little bit more and make sure it's done properly. Then go and save a few bucks and find out the hard way.' Here's the questions they go check. They came back to my dad.  Lisa: Yep. When they understood that whole thing. And I think this is a good thing in every piece of, every part of life. It's not always the cheapest offering that's the best offering, which you learn the hard way. Dr John: I had somebody come to me not too long ago, maybe four months ago, earlier this year. And said, ‘I go to so and so's seminar for almost half the price of your seminar. Why would I go to your seminar?' And I said, ‘That's like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen.' I said, ‘So let me explain what you're going to get here. Let me explain what you're going to get here. Then you can make a decision. If you want that Volkswagen outcome, that's fantastic. If you want a Rolls Royce, I'm on the Rolls Royce. I'm going to give you something about here.' And once you explain it, and make the distinctions, people will pay the difference.  Lisa: Yeah. And that's– in a business, you have to be able to explain to them as well. When I was a jeweller, when I started, I was a goldsmith in a previous life. And we used to make everything by hand and it was all custom jewellery, etcetera, back before China and the mass production and huge factories and economies of scale really blew the industry to pieces. For a long time you were actually in that hanging on to one of those and not transitioning into the mass production side of it because I didn't want to, but not being able to represent the value that actually what you were producing: the customisation, the personalisation, the handmade, and people wouldn't understand that.  You end up chopping your own prices down and down and down to the point where it no longer became a viable business. And that was the state of the industry and so on and so forth. But people could not see the difference between this silver ring and that silver ring. That one's a customised, handmade, personalised piece that took X amount of hours to produce. And this is something they got spit out of a production line at a team and other people are wearing. But people can't see the value difference. Dr John: Yeah, you have to, you're responsible for bringing it to their awareness. If you've been to a sushi restaurant, they have this egg that's in layers. I noticed that to get some nigiri with an egg on it with a little seaweed wrapped around it, it was like $4 per piece. And the other sushi was like $2 at the time. I thought, just an egg. Why would it be that much? And then I thought, and then I watched him prepare one, and how many hours it took to prepare one of those slabs of egg because he had to do it in layers. We had to loony take a pan, take an egg, poured in the egg, cook it just a certain level. And then lay that, scramble it, laid on top layer to time while it's hot, and layer by layer by layer by layer and cut it and everything else to make that thing. And I realised that is an individual egg-layered piece of egg. And I realised after seeing him I go, ‘That's a $10 egg.'  Lisa: This is cheap.  Dr John: I was thinking, ‘How the heck does he do that for four bucks? How did he make any profit out of it?' I never questioned it after th

About JohnJohn Allspaw has worked in software systems engineering and operations for over twenty years in many different environments. John's publications include the books The Art of Capacity Planning (2009) and Web Operations (2010) as well as the forward to “The DevOps Handbook.”  His 2009 Velocity talk with Paul Hammond, “10+ Deploys Per Day: Dev and Ops Cooperation” helped start the DevOps movement.John served as CTO at Etsy, and holds an MSc in Human Factors and Systems Safety from Lund UniversityLinks: The Art of Capacity Planning: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Capacity-Planning-Scaling-Resources/dp/1491939206/ Web Operations: https://www.amazon.com/Web-Operations-Keeping-Data-Time/dp/1449377440/ The DevOps Handbook: https://www.amazon.com/DevOps-Handbook-World-Class-Reliability-Organizations/dp/1942788002/ Adaptive Capacity Labs: https://www.adaptivecapacitylabs.com John Allspaw Twitter: https://twitter.com/allspaw Richard Cook Twitter: https://twitter.com/ri_cook Dave Woods Twitter: https://twitter.com/ddwoods2 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by CircleCI. CircleCI is the leading platform for software innovation at scale. With intelligent automation and delivery tools, more than 25,000 engineering organizations worldwide—including most of the ones that you've heard of—are using CircleCI to radically reduce the time from idea to execution to—if you were Google—deprecating the entire product. Check out CircleCI and stop trying to build these things yourself from scratch, when people are solving this problem better than you are internally. I promise. To learn more, visit circleci.com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by John Allspaw, who's—well, he's done a lot of things. He was one of the founders of the DevOps movement—although I'm sure someone's going to argue with that—he's also written a couple of books, The Art of Capacity Planning and Web Operations and the foreword of The DevOps Handbook. But he's also been the CTO at Etsy and has gotten his Master's in Human Factors and System Safety from Lund University before it was the cool thing to do. And these days, he is the founder and principal at Adaptive Capacity Labs. John, thanks for joining me.Corey: And now for something completely different!John: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk with you, Corey.Corey: So, let's start at the beginning here. So, what is Adaptive Capacity Labs? It sounds like an experiment in auto-scaling, as is every use of auto-scaling, but that's neither here nor there. I'm guessing it goes deeper.John: Yeah. So, I managed to trick, or let's say convince some of my heroes, Dr. Richard Cook and Dr. David Woods, these folks are what you would call heavies in the human factors, system safety, and resilience engineering world, Dave Woods is credited with creating the field of resilience engineering. And so what we've been doing for the past—since I left Etsy is bringing perspectives, techniques, approaches to the software world that are, I guess, some of the most progressive practices that saved other safety, critical domains, like aviation, and power plants, and all of the stuff that makes news.And the way we've been doing that is largely through the lens of incidents. And so we do a whole bunch of different things, but that's the core of what we do is activities and projects for clients that have a concern around incidents; both, are we learning well? Can you tell us that? Or can you tell us how to understand incidents and analyze them in such a way that we can learn from them effectively?Corey: Generally speaking, my naive guess, based upon the times I spent working in various operations role has been, “Great. So, how do we learn from incidents?” Well, if you're like most of the industry, you really don't. You wind up blaming someone in a meeting that's called blameless, so instead of using the person's name, you use a team or a role name, and then you wind up effectively doing a whole bunch of reactive process work that in long enough timeline and enough incidents ossifies you into a whole bunch of processes and procedure that is just horrible. And then how do you learn from this?Well, by the time it actually becomes a problem, you've rotated CIOs four times and there's no real institutional memory here. Great. That's my cynical approach, and I suspect it's not entirely yours because if it were, you wouldn't be doing a business in this because otherwise, it would be this wonderful choreographed song-and-dance number of, “Doesn't it suck to be you? Da-da.” And that's it. I suspect you do more as a consultant than that. So, what does my lived experience of terrible companies differing in what respects from the folks you talk to?John: Oh, well, I mean, just to be blunt, you're absolutely spot on. [laugh]. The industry is terrible at this.Corey: Well, crap.John: I mean, look, the good news is, there are inklings, there are signals for some organizations that have been doing the things that they've been told to do by some book or website that they read, and they're doing all the things and they realize, “All right, well, whatever we're doing doesn't seem to be—it doesn't feel—we're doing all the things, checking the boxes, but we're having incidents”—and even more disturbing to them is we're having incidents that seem as if—it'd be one thing to have incidents that were really difficult, hairy, complicated, and complex, and certainly those happen, but there is a view that they're just simply not getting as much out of these sometimes pretty traumatic events as they could be. And that's all that's needed, yeah.Corey: In most companies, it seems like, on some level, you're dealing with every incident that looks a lot like that. Sure, it was a certificate expired, but then you wind up tying into all the relevant things that are touching that. It seems like it's an easy, logical conclusion. Oh, wow. It turns out in big enterprises, nothing is straightforward or simple.Everything becomes complicated, and issues like that happen frequently enough that it seems like the entire career can be spent in pure firefighting reactive mode.John: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I would say that just like these other domains that I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of, sort of, intuitive perspectives that are, let's just say, sort of unproductive. And so in software, we write software; it makes sense if all of our discussions after an incident trying to make sense of it, is entirely focused on the software did this, and Postgres has this weird thing, and Kafka has this tricky bit here. But the fact of the matter is, people and—engineers and non-engineers—are struggling when an incident arises, both in terms of what the hell is happening, and generating hypotheses, and working through whether the hypothesis is valid or not, adjusting it if signals show up that it's not, and what can we do, what are some options? If we do feel like we're on a good [unintelligible 00:06:09] productive thread about what's happening, what are some options that we can take?That opens up a doorway for a whole variation of other questions. But the fact of the matter is, handling incidents, understanding really, effectively, time-pressured problem solving, almost always amongst multiple people with different views, different expertise, and piecing together across that group what's happening, and what to do about it, and what are the ramifications of doing this thing versus that thing? This is all what we would call above-the-line work. This is expertise. It shows up in how people weigh ambiguities, and things are uncertain.And that doesn't get this lived experience that people have, it just we're not used to talking about—we're used to talking about networks, and applications, and code, and network. We're not used to talking about and even have vocabulary for what makes something confusing? What makes something ambiguous? And that is what makes for effective incident analysis.Corey: Do you find that most of the people who are confused about these things tend to be more aligned with being individual contributor type engineers, who are effectively boots-on-the-ground, for lack of a better term? Is it high-level executives who are trying to understand why it seems like they're constantly getting paraded in the press? Or is it often folks somewhere between the two?John: Yes.Corey: [laugh].John: Right? Like there is something that you point out, which is this contrast between boots-on-the-ground, hands-on keyboard, folks who are resolving incidents, who are wrestling with these problems, and leadership. And sometimes leadership who remember their glory days of being an individual contributor sometimes are a bit miscalibrated. They still believe they have a sufficient understanding of all the messy details when they don't. And so, I mean, the fact of the matter is, there's the age-old story of Timmy stuck in a well, right?There's the people trying to get Timmy out of the well, and then there's what to do about all of the news reporters surrounding the well asking for updates and questions, and how did Timmy get in the well? These are two different activities. And I'll tell you pretty confidently, if you get Timmy out of the well, pretty fluidly, if you can set situations up where people who ostensibly would get Timmy out of the well are better prepared with anticipating Timmy is going to be in the well, and understanding all the various options and tools to get Timmy out of the well, the more you can set up those and have those conditions be in place, there's a whole host of other problems that simply don't go away. And so, these things kind of get a bit muddled. And so when you say ‘learning from incidents,' I would separate that very much from what you tell the world externally from your company about the incident because they're not at all the same.Public write-ups about an incident are not the results of an analysis. It's not the same as an internal review, were the review to be effective. Why? Well, first thing is you never see apologies on internal post-incident reviews because who are you going to apologize to?Corey: It's always fun watching the certain level of escalating transparency as you go up through the spectrum of the public explanation of an outage, to ones you put internal customers, to ones you show under NDA to special customers, to the ones who are basically partners who are going to fire you contractually if you don't, to the actual internal discussion about it. And watching that play out is really interesting. As you wind up seeing the things that are buried deeper and deeper, yeah, you wind up with this flowery language on the outside, and it gets more and more transparent, and at the end, it's, “Someone tripped and hit the emergency power switch in a data center.” And it's this great list of how this stuff works.John: Yeah. And to be honest, it would be strange and shocking if they weren't different. Because like I said, the purpose of a public write-up is entirely different than an internal write-up and the audience is entirely different. And so that's why they're cherry-picked. There's a whole bunch of things that aren't included in public write-up because the purpose is, “I want a customer or potential customer to read this and feel at least a little bit better.”Or really, I want them to at least get this notion that we've got a handle on it. “Wow, that was really bad, but nothing to see here, folks. It's all been taken care of.” But again, this is very different, the people inside the organization, even if it's just sort of tacit, they've got a knowledge. Tenured people who have been there for some time, see connections, even if they're not made explicit, between one incident to another incident.To that one that happened—“Remember that one that happened three years ago, that big one? Oh, sorry, you're new. Oh, let me tell you the story. Oh, it's about this and blah, blah, blah. And who knew that Unix pipes only passes 4k across it.” Blah, blah, blah, something—some weird, esoteric thing.And so our focus, largely, although we have done projects with companies about trying to be better about their external language about it, the vast majority of what we do and where our focuses is, is to capture the richest understanding of an incident for the broadest audience. And like I said at the very beginning, the bar is real low. There's a lot of, I don't want to say falsehoods, but certainly a lot of myths that just don't play out in the data about whether people are learning. Whenever we have a call with a potential client, we always ask the same question. Ask them about what their post-incident activities look like, and they tell us and throw in some cliches, and everyone—never want a crisis go to waste.And, “Oh, yes. And we always try to capture the learnings and we put them in a document.” And we always ask the same question, which is, “Oh. So, you put these documents, these write-ups in an area?” Oh, yes, we want that to be shared as much as possible.And then we say, “Who reads them?” And that tends to put a bit of a pause because most people have no idea whether they're being read or not. And the fact is, when we look, very few of these write-ups are being read. Why? I'll be blunt: because they're terrible. [laugh].There's not much to learn from there because they're not written to be read. They're written to be filed. And so we're looking to change that. And there's a whole bunch of other things that are unintuitive, but just like all of the perspective shifts, DevOps, and continuous deployment, they sound obvious, but only in hindsight after you get it. That's characterization of our work.Corey: It's easy to wind up, from the outside, seeing a scenario where things go super well in an environment like that, where, okay, we brought you in as a consultant, suddenly, we have better understanding about our outages. Awesome. But outages still happen. And it's easy to take a cynical view of, okay, so other than talking to you a lot, we say the right things, but how do we know that companies are actually learning from what happened as opposed to just being able to tell better stories about pretending to learn?John: Yeah, yeah. And this is, I think, where the world of software has some advantages over other domains. And the fact is, software engineers don't pay any attention to anything they don't think the attention is warranted, or they're not being judged, or scored, or rewarded for. And so there's no single signal that accompanies learning from incidents. It's more like a constellation, like, a bunch of smaller signals.So, for example, if more people are reading the write-ups. If more people are attending group review meetings. In organizations that do this really well, engineers who start attending meetings, we ask them, “Well, why are you going to this meeting?” And they'll report, “Well, because I can learn stuff here that I can't learn anywhere else. Can't read about it in a runbook, can't read about it on the wiki, can't read about it in an email, or hear about it in an all-hands.”And that they can see a connection between, even incidents handled in some distant group, they can see a connection to their own work. And so those are the sort of signals—we've written about this on our blog—those are the sort of signals that we know that progress is building momentum. But a big part of that is capturing this, again, this experience. Usually, we'll see, there's a timeline, and this is when memcached did X, and this alert happened, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right?But very rarely are captured the things that, when you ask an engineer, “Tell me your favorite incident story.” People who will even describe themselves, “Oh, I'm not really a storyteller, but listen to this.” And they'll include parts that make for a good story. Social construct is, if you're going to tell a story, you've got the attention of other people, you're going to include the stuff that was not usually kept or captured in write-ups. For example, like, what was confusing?A story that tells about what was confusing, well—“And then we looked, and it said, ‘zero tests failed.'”—this is an actual case that we looked at—“It says ‘zero tests failed.' And so, okay. So, then I deployed. Well, the site went down.” “Okay, well, so what's the story there?” “Well, listen to this. As it turns out, at a fixed font, zeros, like, in Courier or whatever, have a slash through it and at a small enough font, a zero with a slash through it looks a lot like an eight. There were eight tests failed, not zero.” So, that's about the display. And so those are the types of things that make a good story. We all know stories like this, right? The Norway problem with YAML. You ever heard of that Norway problem?Corey: Not exactly. I'm hoping you'll tell me.John: Well, so lay [laugh] it's excellent, and of course it works out that the spec for YAML will evaluate the value no—N-O—to false as if it was a boolean. Yes, for true. Well, but if your YAML contains a list of abbreviations for countries, then you might have Ireland, Great Britain, Spain, US, false instead of Norway. And so that's just an unintuitive surprise. And so, those are the types of things that don't typically get captured in incident writeups.There might be a sentence like, “There was a lack of understanding.” Well, that's unhelpful. At best. Don't tell me what wasn't there. Tell me what was there. “There was confusion.” Great. “What made it confusing?” “Oh, yeah. N-O is both ‘no' and the abbreviation for Norway.”Red herrings is another great example. Red herrings happen a lot; they tend to stick in people's memories; and yet, they never really get captured. But it's, like, one of the most salient aspects of the case that ought to be captured. People don't follow red herrings because they know they're a red herring. They follow red herrings because they think it's going to be productive.So therefore, you better describe for all your colleagues what brought you to believe that this was productive. Turns out later—you find out later that it wasn't productive. Those are some of the examples. And so if you can capture what's difficult, what's ambiguous, what's uncertain, and what made it difficult, ambiguous, or uncertain, that makes for good stories. If you can enrich these documents, it means people who maybe don't even work there yet, when they start working there, they'll be interested; they have a set expectation they'll learn something by reading these things.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: There's an inherent cynicism around… well, from at least from my side of the world, around any third-party that claims to fundamentally shift significant aspects of company culture, and if the counter-argument to that is that you and DORA and a whole bunch of other folks have had significant success with doing it, it's just very hard to see that from the outside. So, I'm curious as to how you wind up telling stories about that because the problem is inherently whenever you have an outsider coming into an enterprise-style environment, is, “Oh, cool. What are they going to be able to change?” And it's hard to articulate that value, and not—well, given what you do, to be direct—come across as an engineering apologist, where it's well, “Engineers are just misunderstood, so they need empathy, and psychological safety, and blameless post-mortems.” And it sounds to crappy executives, if I'm being direct, that, “Oh, in other words, I just can't ever do anything negative to engineers who, from my perspective, just failed me or are invisible, and there's nothing else in my relationship with them.” Or am I oversimplifying?John: No, no. I actually think you're spot on. I mean, that's the thing is that if you're talking with leaders—remember, a.k.a. People who are, even though they're tasked with providing the resources and setting conditions for practitioners—the hands-on folks who get their work done—they're quite happy to talk about these sort of abstract concepts, like psychological safety and insert other sorts of hand-wavy stuff.What is actually pretty magical about incidents is that these are grounded, concrete, messy phenomena that practitioners have, and will remember; they're sometimes visceral experiences. And so that's why we don't do theory at Adaptive Capacity Labs. We understand the theory, happy to talk to you about it, but it doesn't mean as much without the practicality. And the fact of the matter is that the engineer apologist is, “If you didn't have the engineers, would you have a business?” That's at the flip side; this is, like, the core unintuitive part of the field of resilience engineering, which is that Murphy's Law is wrong.What could go wrong almost never does, but we don't pay much attention to that. And the reason why you're not having nearly as many incidents as you could be is because, despite the fact that you make it hard to learn from incidents, people are actually learning. But they're just learning out of view from leaders. When we go to an organization and we see that most of the people who are attending post-incident review meetings are managers, that has a very particular signal. That tells me that the real post-incident review is happening outside that meeting, it probably happened before that meeting, and those people are there to make sure that whatever group that they represent in their organization isn't unnecessarily given the brunt of the bottom of a bus.And so it's a political due diligence. But the notion that you shouldn't punish or be harsh on engineers for making mistakes completely misses the point. The point is to set up the conditions so that engineers can understand the work that they do. And if you can amplify that, as Andrew Schaffer has said, “You're either building a learning organization, or you're losing to someone who is.” And a big part of that is you need people; you have to set up conditions for people to give detailed story about their work, what's hard.This part of the codebase is really scary, right? All engineers have these notions: this part is really scary, this part is really not that big of a deal, this part is somewhere in between. But there's no place for that outside of the informal discussions. But I would assert that if you can capture that, the organization will be better prepared. The thing that I would end on that is that it's a bit of a rhetorical device to get this across, but one of the questions we'll ask is, “How can you tell the difference between a difficult case—a difficult incident—handled well, or a straightforward incident handled poorly?”Corey: And from the outside, it's very hard to tell the difference.John: Oh, yeah. Well, certainly if what you're doing is averaging how long these things take. But the fact of the matter is that all the people who were involved in that, they know the difference between a difficult case handled well, and a straightforward one handled poorly. They know it, but there's nowhere, there's no place to give voice to that lived experience.Corey: So, on the whole, what is the tech industry missing when it comes to learning effectively from the incidents that we all continually experience and what feels to be far too frequently?John: They're missing what is captured in that age-old parable of the blind men and the elephant. And I would assert that these blind men that the king sends out—“Go find an elephant and come back and tell me about the elephant”—they come back and they all have—they're all valid perspectives, and they argue about, “No, an elephant is this big flexible thing,” and other one is, “Oh, no, an elephant is this big wall,” and, “No, an elephant is a big flappy thing.” If you were to make a synthesis of their different perspectives, then you'd have a richer picture and understanding of an elephant. You cannot legislate—and this is where what you brought up—you cannot set ahead, a priori, some amount of time and effort. And quite often what we see are leaders saying, “Okay, we need to have some sort of root cause analysis done within 72 hours of an event.” Well, if your goal is to find gaps, and come up with remediation items, that's what you're going to get. Remediation items might actually not be that good because you've basically contained the analysis time.Corey: Which does sort of feel, on some level, like it's very much aligned as—from a viewpoint of, yeah, remediation items may not be useful as far as driving lasting change, but without remediation items, good luck explaining to your customers that will never ever, ever happen again.John: Right, yeah. Of course. Well, you'll notice something about those public write-ups; you'll notice that they don't tend to link to previous incidents that have similarities to them because that would undermine the whole purpose, which is to provide confidence. And a reader might actually follow a hyperlink to say, “Wait a minute. You said this wouldn't happen again.”Turns out it would. Of course, that's horseshit. But you're right. And there's nothing wrong with remediation items, but if that's the goal, then that goal is—you know, what you look for is what you find, and what you find is what you fix. If I said, “Here's this really complicated problem and I'm only giving you an hour to describe it,” and it took you eight hours to figure out the solution.Well then, what you come up with in an hour is not actually going to be all that good. So, then the question is, how good are the remediation items? Quite often what we see is—and I'm sure you've had this experience—an incident's been resolved and you and your colleagues are like, “Wow, that was a huge pain in the ass. Oh, dude. I didn't see that coming. That was weird. Yeah.” And one of you might say, “You know what? I'm just going to make this change because I don't want to be woken up tonight, or I know that making this change is going to help things. I'm not waiting for the post-mortem. We're just going to do that.” “Is that good?” “Yep.” “Okay, yeah, please do it.”Quite frequently, those things, those actions, those aren't listed as action items, and yet it was a thing so important that it couldn't wait for the post-mortem—arguably the most important action item—and it doesn't get captured that way. We've seen this take place. And so again, in the end, it's about those who have the lived experience. The live experience is what fuels how reliable you are today.You don't go to your senior technical people and say, “Hey, listen. We got to do this project. We don't know how. I want you to figure out—we're going to—let's say we're going to move away from this legacy thing, so I want you to get in a room, come up with two or three options. Gather a group of folks who know what they're talking about. Get some options, and then show me what the options. Oh, and by the way, I'm prohibiting you from taking into account any experience you've ever had with incidents.” It sounds ridiculous when you would say that, and yet, that is what [unintelligible 00:27:54].So, if you can fuel people's memory, you can't say you've learned something if you can't remember it. At least that's what my kids' teachers tell me. And so yeah, you have to capture the lived experience, and including what was hard for people to understand. And those make for good stories. That makes for people reading them. That makes for people to have better questions about it. That's what learning looks like.Corey: If people want to learn more about what you have to say and how you view these things, where can they find you?John: You can find me and my colleagues at adaptivecapacitylabs.com where we talk all about the stuff on our blog. And myself, and Richard Cook, and Dave Woods are also on Twitter, as well.Corey: And we'll, of course, include links to that in the [show notes 00:28:42]. John, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.John: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm honored.Corey: John Allspaw, co-founder and principal at Adaptive Capacity Labs. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment giving me a list of suggested remediation actions that I can take to make sure it never happens again.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need the Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Mark Cronin '80 and his son John Cronin join Maura Sweeney '07 to speak about how they came to found John's Crazy Socks. A serial entrepreneur, Mark passed along this passion to John.  In the spirit of Holy Cross, theirs is a company created to do good.  Through John's Crazy Socks they are living their mission to “spread happiness,” while also serving as advocates for workplace equality and voices for people with differing abilities. Interview originally recorded on March 17, 2021. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Mark : It's the nature of the social enterprise, you've got to have a mission. You can't be, we just want to make money. It's got to be something larger than yourself, an impact you want to have on the world. And when you're driven by that, it's so motivating. All the petty stuff falls away. And that's how you can go and connect with people. We get asked, what's the key ingredient? What skill? A lot if it is just belief. If we have a mission to spread happiness, just believe. Maura : Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura : In this episode, I speak with Mark Cronin from the class of 1980 and his son, John Cronin. Mark and John are co-founders of John's Crazy Socks. A company whose mission is to spread happiness, where over half of the employees have a differing ability. An entrepreneur at heart, Mark has been creating opportunities and organizations ever since his days at Holy Cross. From creating The Lunchbox Theater as a student, to running political campaigns, to founding a software company, his career path shows what can be done when you pursue an idea. Maura : Every step of the way he's been driven by mission. And every step of the way has prepared him for his role at John's Crazy Socks. Our conversation focuses a lot on the incredible work that Mark and John are doing through John's Crazy Socks, to raise awareness about people with differing abilities. They live the motto, to whom much has been given, much is expected, and they do it well. We are lucky to have people like Mark and John working hard to improve the lives of millions of others, because it's not just the right thing to do, it's also good for business. Maura : Mark and John, it is really wonderful to be here with you today. How are you today? Mark : Pretty good, right? John : Pretty good dad. Mark : Life remains interesting. Maura, thank you very much for having us on. Maura : It is my pleasure. It is my pleasure. I have been really looking forward to talking to you about Mark, about your career journey and John, about how you came to help co-found John's Crazy Socks, and the incredible work that you're doing together to really make a difference for people with differing abilities out in the world. Before we get to that, and before we get to John's Crazy Socks, because I could go down a rabbit hole there. First, I'd love to know more about you and your family. I know that you're both New Yorkers. Have you always lived in New York? Mark : So, we live in a town called Huntington on Long Island. I tell the story about that with John. He sometimes laughs at me about this. So, I grew up here on Long Island in part of Huntington, Huntington Station, and when I was 19, I set out for the world. I was leaving and I'm never coming back to Long Island. So in 1997, by that point we had three kids. Our eldest was in first grade and we had moved several times. And if you move two blocks with a little kid, their world turns upside. So we said, we'll buy a house and we'll stay in one place until you get out of college. And we wound up buying a house in Huntington Bay in Huntington, not out of college, out of high school. We said, we'll stay here. And there were a few times where boy, all I wanted to do was travel and move. Mark : There was one point I had this interesting opportunity in Hong Kong, and I sat the family down and I gave them a pitch and they all listened and they nodded and they said, "Dad, that sounds great. And why don't you send us a postcard when you get there, because we're not going." But then, so our two elders, they get up and leave and John, he got an extra three years of high school, but now he's in his final year of high school and I'm thinking, and my wife, Carol is also a Holy Cross grad. We're thinking we can move. We can relocate. Mark : Even after starting this business, we thought you could run an online business from the moon. We could go anywhere. Well, the good news is the business took off faster than we expected. So, we started with a three-year lease and now we have a bunch of employees, and I am going to die on Long Island. I'm not getting away. Maura : No. Well, and I can tell too, just from what I've seen in just the different media footage and the stories about the way you run John's Crazy Socks, is it's also a community organization. Mark : We think about community a lot, we think about the community here. I'm always wary of businesses that say, we're like a family. I don't know about that. But we're building a community there. We think about the community that we're building around here, our customers and supporters. But we also think about the local community and you've got to be good citizens. You got to be engaged in their community and giving back and involved. So, there is a lot of things we do, and that's important to us. Maura : Well, thinking about community and thinking about Holy Cross, because you're an alum from the class of 1980, I know community is a huge part of someone's time at Holy Cross. I'd love to hear about your days on the Hill and what brought you to Holy Cross from Long Island. Mark : So, a different day and age. Okay. I'm getting out of high school in 1976 and I really knew nothing. I didn't really know anything about looking at schools. At a college fair, I got a booklet that seemed interesting. I applied to three schools. I really applied to two. I applied to Holy Cross and Boston College. A third school came in and started recruiting me for football but by that point, I wasn't thinking of playing football. I got in both Holy Cross and Boston College, and was going back and forth. I didn't really know how to choose. So, Boston College had me up for a weekend with a group of students and they greeted us saying, we think you want the leaders of the class of 1980. Mark : And as soon as I heard that, I was like, well, I don't want to come here. If you think I'm one of your leaders, you're in trouble. So, I wound up at Holy Cross and there were a few points. Freshman year, where I was like, I don't know if this is really the right place. I thought of leaving, but once I made the commitment to stay, well, then you're all in. And like most things, the more you put in, the more you get out. And I was thinking, I just sent a package of socks to a guy named Father Carlson, who was my freshmen advisor. And I took him for a survey of Greek lit, but I was particularly thinking of one moment, just a small moment that altered the course of my life. Mark : It was sophomore year, second semester, sophomore year. And he called me in his office. I was trying to think, how did he get me? There was no email, there was no text. But he had me come into his office and he sat me down, and he was the head of the honors program. And he gave me a picture he said, "You should really apply for this." I was like, "Me. Nah." That's not how I thought of myself. I could talk. I was a pretty serious student, but I did a lot of other things too. I didn't do a lot of sleeping. Mark : I walked out of there and thought, oh. I still, I'm not very... I'm kind of... Not counting on it... To inviting you to an honors program. I was really not very smart because I'm thinking, well, I still don't have a chance. Not even thinking well, the head of the program asked me to do this. So I apply and got in the program. And now I spent my junior year at Trinity College in Ireland. Mark : But among the other little things, you got to take the seminars and it was so wonderful. So I took a seminar in non-Euclidean geometry with a guy named, I think his first name was Ted. Ted Cecil, math professor. It was just wonderful. Blew my mind of opening up the world and different ways of thinking. And I could tell the story a little bit, but on graduation, I wind up teaching math and religion. And first question was, did you study any math in college? Yes, I studied non-Euclidean geometry. Mark : And I got to spend a year working with Bob Cording, writing a thesis on a book-length poem by Galway Kinnell, called The Book of Nightmares. And I had met Galway because he was a visiting writing instructor, actually for the Worcester Consortium. So, I was able to take a poetry workshop with him when I was a sophomore. But to spend a year engaged in writing, I learned how to read, I learned how to write. It was so wonderful. Mark : So, just that experience and the confidence it gave me and helped me, it challenged me to think, you're really not that much of an idiot. But then jump ahead a couple of years, I'm bouncing around doing different things. I'm working for a Congressman in New York and I want to get into public policy, public affairs. He's advised me to go to law school. So I apply to some law schools, and I get something in the mail from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. And I read it and say, "This is what I should do." Mark : So, I apply there and I get in. Later, I served on the Admissions Committee at the Kennedy School and realize how the heck did I get in? And I know the crucial factor was, I was in the honors program and Holy Cross. So for some reason, Father Carlson took that time to call in this knucklehead and say, "You may want to do this." And in that way, it was just a conversation, but it had this impact on my life. And I'm 62 now and it's still blooming, and those are special moments. Maura : Well, and that's one of the things that I really enjoy is I get to have conversations with alums like you in this podcast, is to hear how many times individual people reaching out and knowing you as a person has a tremendous effect. And the fact that Holy Cross is small and allows people to get to know you and to see something in you that you didn't recognize in yourself at that moment. Mark : There were things you got to do. Some of this was day and age. So late seventies, there was so much freedom. My sophomore year, I realized that we were at this giant buffet table and it was all you could eat. You could get whatever you wanted. And so at the time, you would take four courses each semester, but you weren't limited to that. So I saw it as, well, naturally I'll take a fifth. I don't have to pay more. And then I would find out and sit in on other classes, then I would find out if you didn't see a class that you wanted, you could just make one up. Now I know Independent Studies, but that wasn't structured then, so sophomore year went to John Mayer, who was the chair of the English Department, and he taught myself and my two housemates a course on Bob Dylan, which was awesome. Maura : That's great. Mark : I remember mentioning it to my parents saying, "I'm taking a course on Dylan," and they were like, "What are you doing?" But it was awesome. Or senior year, my girlfriend, now my wife, we were college sweethearts. So she started on a course, which is not unusual at Holy Cross, of a bio pre-med and quickly wound up as an English major. But now, in senior year and she's got to make up some of her English credits. She's not seeing a lot, she can fill it up, but she needs one more course. We'll just find one. Mark : And I'm like, "Who are some of your favorite authors?" And she hits on Joseph Conrad. I said, "Great. We'll get a class on Conrad. You and I, we'll go do this." And she goes, "How are we going to do that?" "Don't worry." And so, Pat Bizzell in the English Department approached her and she said, "Sure, this would be great." So the two of us would read a book a week, and then we would meet with her, and how awesome is that to be able to have and go and do those things. There were a lot of things like that, but it's also, there were other things that were more extracurricular. Mark : So, sophomore year around Christmas, I read Tom Wolfe's Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test about Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. And they would have what you would call today, a rave. And I'm reading this with the house band, The Warlocks, which changed their name to be the Grateful Dead. I'm reading this and I'm like, I would love to go to something like that. But what do I know? So then decided we'll have our own, and went off and did things, which now I look back like, wow, that was pretty good. I got a group of people together, today we could call a board. Everybody put money in, we sold tickets. We bought some things that we resold. I won't go into that even if the, what do they call it? The standards, the laws say that they can't arrest me anymore. And we had this three-day party with bands. It was just wonderful because you could go do that. Like again, different day and age. Mark : That year, I'm sleeping in Beaven, and every Wednesday night we had a cake party where we would charge money, and $1 would go to buy the cake for the next week, and 1$ would go towards this three-day party. So, I was learning to be an entrepreneur and then repeated it at a different level senior year. I came back from Ireland, wanted to do something and we created something called The Lunchbox Theater. During the lunch hour, we would put on plays and poetry readings, and concerts, and just had a blast doing this. And I'd run around and line people up and get people to agree to stage a play. What great fun. And we could go and do it. No one was going to stop you, and that it was encouraged and that was great. Maura : Well, and I can see now why you didn't sleep at all? Mark : No. Between that and work. I had a professor, Brendan Kenelly at Trinity College who would say, you go to university to find out what you don't know. And I didn't know. Eventually Father Carlson before, so I'm taking this Greek lit class freshman year, and now we come on to our first blue books, and I was in Carlin, which then was primarily a freshmen dorm. You could feel the stress level rising. And I'm like, well, I should be worried. I should do something. And that's when I realized I had no idea how to study. I had no idea how to take notes, no idea how to study. I didn't know really what to do. So I stayed up all night, re-read The Odyssey and The Iliad and I showed up with no sleep, but it's all fresh in my mind now. A lot of it, because I was so unsure of myself and insecurity that gets flipped sometimes as bravado. Mark : I remember it was a Bob Cording class sophomore year, and okay, different time and age, and I am ludicrous. It's a 10:30 or an 11 o'clock class and small class. I think everybody was a senior, I'm the only sophomore in the class. And I'm showing up in my bathrobe, sitting in the back of the class. And he turns, he hands out the first paper, and Bob was so diligent and detailed notes, but very demanding. Hands this out and he announces to the class, "I'm really disappointed and they're poor. And I'm telling you now, you're going to have to rewrite these." Because the highest grade, there were like two Cs and everybody else got a D. And I'm thinking, what the hell? People are slumping. He says, "But was one paper that just hit the mark and I'm going to read it to you." And he starts reading it. And all the people, I'm like several rows back from everybody, they're all looking at each other because they all know each other. Is that yours? Is that yours? Slowly they realize it's the freak in the back of the class. Mark : Again, it was somebody, Bob coming to me and saying... It's a lesson I had to keep learning. Don't be a fool. You can do things and now that becomes an obligation. You got to make something of that. Plus, there's friendships. I was texting last night with a buddy of mine from Holy Cross. We're still close. For a long time at that house that I mentioned, we would have like 25 people come down for president's weekend, bringing their families. We had this at a mini reunion. My wife, Carol, during the pandemic at six o'clock every Tuesday night, there's a Zoom call where they call themselves the Carlin Girls. They're in their sixties. They're not girls, but they do a Zoom call and they'll get 20 people in it. And every five years, they take a trip together and they go to Miami, or I guess, The Bahamas they've been to, all because there's this rich connection that was made at Holy Cross. Maura : It is. It's a special, my best friends in the world are from Holy Cross. It is, it's a special time, and it's nice when you can make those connections. It's amazing to see them last. Mark : And there's something about the Jesuit Mission and the liberal arts that always has you asking, inquiring and asking for more. It directly feeds into the business we have, which is a social enterprise. We have a social mission, and where do you get that from? Well, you get it from some of the activism and some of the yearning that was instilled in me in college. Maura : Well, and it seems like, looking at your career, from Holy Cross, you mentioned the Kennedy School, and then fast forward to today with John's Crazy Socks. It seems like, and I'd love to hear from you, but it seems like there's this thread of entrepreneurial-ism and mission and 'striving for the more' that seemed to be woven throughout your path. Mark : I look back and I guess I've always been an entrepreneur. I didn't always have the language to use it, but early on, everything and again, I didn't always necessarily have the language, but everything was mission-driven. So, I got out, I taught school for two years. Pure happenstance that I did that, I went to graduate school for literature. I was in a doctoral program and I'm sitting in there, sitting in a class the day the US invaded Grenada. And I don't know if people remember. It was this tiny island and we had to go rescue medical students. It was crazy. And I'm like, I should be doing something. So that's how I got the job at the Congressman. I showed up at his office and said, "I want to work with you." They said, "Well, we don't have any jobs." "That's all right. I'll volunteer. I just want experience." Mark : We move into a community and you'd connect. I can remember when we moved into Greenpoint, Brooklyn, we were early hipsters. It was before it boomed, and through the church and we set up a food bank, we set up a clothing depository. We work with the local recycling program to set something up, because you go and do that. I spent much of my career in the healthcare field. I wound up running the Medicaid health service program in New York City, and then ran a series of companies that were trying to figure out, how do you better deliver healthcare to the poor? How do we better organize care? Mark : But some of that Holy Cross thing was always there of the liberal arts and how do you pursue that mission and those values and still be carrying things out? But that wide interest, it fueled a lot. I started a software company. I ran political campaigns. I did a fair amount of writing. I published some of my less than really terrible fiction. And even this enterprise, we've now been doing this for four years, but people would say, well, when did you get into it? How long have you worked in retail? How long have you been in the sock game? Got no background in it. But I'm 62 today, everything I have done has prepared me for this moment. Everything I have done in my life has prepared me for this interview. Maura : Well, and that is the perfect segue to pull you into this John too, and to talk about John's Crazy Socks, and talk about the incredible work that you are doing. Because you're making a lot of change and you're doing a lot of good in the world through this company. Mark : We're very fortunate, but what are the two things you always talk about? John : Try to do for others. Mark : Try to do for others. It sounds trite, but the more we can do for others, the better off we are. We're living a dream. We get to do what we want to do. We have no excuses. We can't blame it on the board. We can't blame it on headquarters. And it also speaks to the way we run the business and our appearance. One of the internal ambitions, and I've always wanted this to be a way, I want this to be a great place to work. I want people to love working here. We work at that and you make that happen, and that runs through... What's our overall mission pal? John : Spread happiness. Mark : Spreading happiness. Well, you got to start at home and people got to be happy, and you have to understand it can't be lip service, it's got to drive through everything you do. So, here's an easy way. When it comes to customer service, you heard the old saw, the customer is always right. Nonsense. The customer can be damn wrong. But we're not in the business of being right. We're in the business of making customers happy. So, we don't limit any time that people spend with customers. People that work with our customers know they can spend 200 hours on any customer, at any time, doing anything they want, just go and wow that customer. Mark : We had something last week. Somebody had ordered something they said they were going to pay by check. That's pretty rare, somebody say they pay by check. And what our folks did was they said, "Okay," but they didn't fill the order until the check arrived. And when they did, it was an item we had sold out. So we sat and I said, let's think about this. First, in four years, maybe we've received 15 checks. It doesn't happen. Every time somebody says, they're going to send us a check, they send us a check. So, why not just live in a world where we trust people. And as soon as we get the order, we ship it out and trust that we're going to get the check. And my colleagues are looking and saying, "Can we do that?" "Why not? We can do whatever the hell we want to do." Mark : And they were like, "Well, what if people do this or that?" I said, "Nobody does that. Would you do that? So why don't we just treat people that way?" And it's so easy. And wouldn't you rather live in that world? Maura : Yes. Mark : Now, if we get burned, if all of a sudden people are fake, but it doesn't happen. We doing the same thing with our returns. You don't have to send us anything. Just let us know. If there's any problem we're going to replace it. We're going to give you your money back. We want to make you happy. What results of that? Well, if we treat you that way, you tell other people. Aren't people happy, because we're not going through stuff. We're just trying to make you happy, and our return rate last month, our refund rate was 0.6%. Businesses would kill to do that. We give away anything we can. Maura : Well, and I know that the origin story, if you will, of John's Crazy Socks is out there for people to read and to watch. But I'd love to hear from you about that moment, because I talk to so many people who dream of starting their own business. Who say, someday, I'd love to do this, but there's a very small percentage who actually do it. So what sparked that courage to really go and make this happen? Mark : Well, first of all, it is, again, it's much simpler than you think. Worst thing that happens is, you fail. And you go on. But ours grew out of a specific situation, this particular business, and origin stories matter. Because you take your DNA and they run through everything. So ours, it's the fall of 2016, and where were you buddy? John : I'm in school dad. Mark : Which school? John : Huntington High School. Mark : So, he's in Huntington High School in the states, and this is across the country. You can remain in high school until you either graduate or turn 21. If you have a disability, you can stay until you're 21. So this was going to be John's last year at school. Like everybody else, he's trying to figure out what do I do next? What are you looking at? John : I looked at shop programs in school. Mark : See anything you like? John : No, I never saw anything I liked. Mark : Well, the answer is, there's not a lot of great choices. John grew up in a household where he saw me starting different businesses and running things. And I'd like to say he's a natural entrepreneur, because he did things like that himself in school. I remember showing up at his summer school, we've got a summer program, and came into some and the principal came out and said, "I want to talk to you about John." And that was always good. Particularly my middle guy, Jamie, the principal comes, wants to talk to me, that's not good. That's the same way with me. But with John, okay. Well, it turned out John wanted to run a talent show, and he organized a talent show at the school. Never mentioned to me. He didn't think why I have to ask permission, I just go and do this. Mark : So, he doesn't see anything he like, the natural entrepreneur doesn't see that as a problem, but as an opportunity. So what do you tell me? John : I want to go into business with my dad. This is my idea. Mark : I was starting some online businesses. He comes and tells me that, it's like, okay, let's go do this. And traditionally, what you do in a business, once you get the idea, is you stop everything to prepare a business plan. Work out your competitive analysis, your market research, your operational projections, financial projections. We did none of that. We went what's known as the lean startup route. We were bootstrapping. Let's just get something up and running. I've worked with venture capitalists before and done that. We didn't want to do that. Just get something up and running. And he's the perfect partner because he just believes, of course this is going to work. Maura : Why wouldn't it? Mark : Why wouldn't it? And so much of what we've been able to do is why not? So, I'll let you know on something that's coming up on March 30th. This is top secret information. On March 30th, we're going to introduce our unity socks, which are blue socks with American flags on them. We want them to symbolize inclusivity and unity, and we get this idea. We want to give them to every member of Congress. So on March 30th, we have two local congressmen coming, a Republican and a Democrat, to help us introduce these socks, and we're going to give them to every member of Congress. We've already been invited to come up to Albany and do it in the New York State Legislature. And we see ourselves that we can go across the country, just symbolizing look what's possible. Have John be handing out these unity socks. What a wild, ridiculous idea and yet, okay, who's going to stop us? Maura : And yet it's so perfect. What a perfect idea. Mark : And it just grows. Not every idea is a good idea. We have bad ones. We do a lot of presentations. Right before this, we were speaking virtually to a school in New York City. Last week, we got a question from a high school student, need to ask permission from to do these things. It's like, no, that's part of the power. You don't have to ask anybody for permission. Just go and do and come back to... It's the nature of the social enterprise. You've got to have a mission. Mark : You can't be, we just want to make money. It's got to be something larger than yourself, an impact you want to have on the world. And when you're driven by that, it's so motivating. All the petty stuff falls away, and that's how you can go and connect with people. We get asked, what's the key ingredient? Which skill? A lot of it is just belief. If we have a mission to spread happiness, just believe. So when you ask on the origin story, okay, we'll find a way forward and we'll go test it. And it turned out it went well, right buddy. Maura : Well, I think even more than just believe, you talked about wanting to make a great place for people to work. And I think that the fact that you care about your employees, and you care about the people, both who work with you and who you serve, that is another really big piece. Mark : It's all the whole. So yes, our mission is to spread happiness. You do that by hiring people with differing abilities and showing what they can do, by giving back and by making personal connection with our customers. When it comes to this workplace, one of the things we're trying to share with other employers, hiring people with differing abilities is not altruism. It's good business. And what do we see? Morale is way up. Productivity is high, retention is through the roof and it helps us recruit. And it makes for a better workplace. You think the benefits would mainly accrue to the people with differing abilities, but everybody is better off and everybody is happier. Mark : But I've worked over the years into, in essence, a formula on employee engagement. One, you have to start with a mission in which people can believe. It's got to be something greater than ourselves. It's got to be something that can matter. Two, everybody has to know how they fit into the mission, how their job matters. There's no leg work. There's no, I'm just a cog in a machinery. Yes, our webmaster knows, but our sock wranglers, that's what we call the pickers on our pick and pack warehouse, they know their job matters. Mark : Three, put people in a position to succeed. Don't ask them to do what they can't do. Give them the tools. If they need a special chair, get them a chair. If they need a software tool, a webmaster needs some analytical tool, get that for them. As a manager, you have to be a leader. And in doing that, what you have to make clear to people is, I work for you. My job is to put you in a position to succeed and if you have problem, if you have a limitation, my job is to try to help remove that limitation. Mark : Four, recognize what people do. People care. It's as simple as saying, thank you. I saw you doing this. What you do matters. We value. And then the last, stay the hell out of the way. Let people do their jobs and they will thrive. But some of this comes down to, it's like a Christian thing. Do unto others, treat people the way you would like to be treated. If you treat people poorly, they will respond that way. If you treat people that I don't trust you, so I have to manage and inspect and micromanage, they will respond in kind. Maura : Well, and I know that you've had a lot of opportunities to spread this message. I recently saw that you joined this CEO Commission on Disability Employment. And I know when we've spoken before, you mentioned going before Congress in the past. Mark : We've been very fortunate. We've had a fair amount of media coverage. We've had some viral experiences, and we go out and basically proselytize. John, you love the speaking engagements, right. John : Yeah. I love speaking engagements. Mark : So yes, we've done things. We've testified twice before Congress, we've spoken to United Nations. We're part of the State Department Speakers Bureau. So they had us take a little speaking tour in Canada. We didn't get tour T-shirts made up, next time we will. And yes, we're on the CEO Commission for Disability Employment. And I laugh. This was founded by Voya Financial and the Society of Human Resource Managers. How are we on this? Like, we're on this National Autism @ Work Roundtable with IBM and Microsoft and Ernst & Young and Warner Brothers, and John's Crazy Socks? Mark : We appreciate the opportunities and you could go back to Rome and find this motto, and you can see it with the Kennedy's and with Spider-Man. To those who are given opportunities, come great responsibilities. So I'll give you an anecdote on that. We're down on Capitol Hill, and we get a phone call here in New York in the office, from a customer in Houston who says, "I see that John and Mark are on Capitol Hill. My mother works there. She's a big fan of John's, would it be possible for them to meet my mom?" Person says, "Sure. Here's Mark's cell phone. Just text him your mom's name and contact information and he'll do it." Who's mom? Nancy Pelosi. Mark : So now, we get an audience with Nancy Pelosi and forget about right wing, left wing. We vilify our politicians too often, or deify them. They're just people. She's a grandmother. She comes in, her eyes light up seeing John, and she brings out pictures of socks that she gave former President Bush, because John had become a sock buddy with former President Bush, George H W Bush, where they exchanged letters and socks, and all this is great. We take photos, but now we have this opportunity that creates an obligation. Mark : So it's yes, but Ms. Pelosi, we have to talk about some other matters. One, we have to talk about repealing section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standard Act of 1938, great piece of American legislation. It created the 40 hour workweek, it eliminated child labor, it created overtime. But it allows employers to pay people with a disability less than minimum wage. So, there are 400,000 people being paid as little as five cents an hour. And we are grateful that we have this opportunity, but we are now going to take advantage of this. Mark : I'll give you a recent one where, despite our best efforts, we contracted the COVID virus, John, my wife and myself. And for Christmas, we gave John a hospital stay. He was admitted on Christmas Day, it was dicey for a few days. People say it's nothing, it's just the flu. Now very healthy, got out eight days later. So, we held an event at the hospital because we know we can attract media attention. So we went back to the hospital and you got to thank everybody, right? John : I did. Mark : But we also used it to do two other things. One, to raise awareness about the risk that people with down syndrome face, they're not more likely to get the virus, but if they do, five times more likely to be hospitalized, 10 times more likely to die. So, we want to get that word out. The other thing, the hospital let me stay with John the entire time, even when he was, because things went bad for a day or two. When they moved him to the critical care unit, they let me stay. Now, Federal Regulations require that people with a disability, that they get access to their caregivers. That's not the way it's practiced, particularly during COVID. So, we wanted to highlight look, this is better for everybody. That there's always a little medicine with the sugar. Mark : So, we keep driving that mission and you can't separate the two. We'd like to make money, we'd like to live indoors, like to pay the rent. And if the business doesn't succeed, then we'll go home and all this stops. So you got to make that happen, but like the giving back. So, we baked into it from day one. We donate 5% of our earnings where? John : Special Olympics. Mark : Special Olympics. Why the special Olympics? John : I'm a Special Olympics athlete. Mark : And then we've created a whole series of products that celebrate causes and raise money for charity partners. So the first one was a down syndrome awareness sock, raises money for the National Down Syndrome Society. But more recent ones, an EMT tribute sock raises money for a local EMT squad. Last April, we wanted to thank people. We introduced healthcare, superhero socks, and they've raised over $50,000 for frontline workers. Mark : And there have been different points when very smart people have said to me, you're not making money. What are you doing making these donations. But we wouldn't have the business we have if we weren't doing that. Willingness for the long haul. So, among things that are really cool, our little business we've raised over $400,000 for our charity partners. Maura : That's amazing. Mark : John here is a special Olympic athlete, who's raised over $100,000 for the special Olympics. We make sure everybody who works here knows they're all philanthropists. It's very cool. We're so fortunate. So in the end, we are these knuckleheads running a sock business and this is a small business, and all we want to do is change the world. How much fun? Maura : And you're doing it too. That's the incredible thing. Is even if it's in small ways, as you showed all of these donations, one pair of sock here, the one conversation there, it's changing hearts and minds. Mark : That has been the thing that has surprised us the most, and it's still hard to wrap our minds around and we have to be really careful about. But people take inspiration and there is a deep, emotional connection. I could tell you all sorts of stories of things we get to see, but I'll tell you one that my wife likes me to tell because I tear up sometimes. Mark : The National Down Syndrome Society sponsors Buddy Walks around the country, but the biggest one is in New York City. Before it starts, they rent a billboard in the city in Times Square, and they want like a video with faces on it of people with down syndrome. So, we go there and John's like a rock star in that community. People are swarming him. But a woman comes up to me and just hugs me and says, "Thank you." Mark : Okay, what's going on? And she explains that she is from Curacao, an island just off of Venezuela. And she tells us that her daughter had gotten pregnant and tested that she was going to have a child with down syndrome. She explained that on Curacao, people were ashamed of people with disabilities, that they hide them. It's something they don't want deal with, talk about it. And in fact, everybody knew that her doctor said, "This is what you're going to do. You're going to get an abortion." And to me, this is not really an abortion story. This was just, this was grant. This is what's going to happen. And the family came home and they saw a news story about John and John's Crazy Socks. Mark : And she said, it changed their entire outlook. And she introduced us to her one year old son. How awesome. We get people coming up to us all the time, thanking us and telling us how they want to do this with their child, or it gave them hope. And we have to be careful. We have nothing special. We're just out doing these things and sharing. So when John stands up in front of a crowd, be it 10 people at a SEPTA, be at 22,000 people at Madison Square Garden, and they see what he can do, it changes people's minds. And we are very fortunate to be able to do that. Maura : I think you really are living that mission of spreading happiness and of doing great things with the opportunities that you've been afforded. Mark : We've been given a lot. We had our family and I could go on about my other boys and the love of my life. We'll be married 40 years. John : It's 39 years still. Mark : It's still 39, I know. Mark : There's a reasonable chance that we'll make it to June. Reasonable chance. Maura : Fingers crossed. Mark : Well, you know. I'm still a Dylan fan. There's that line, when I see you, I don't know if I want to kiss you or kill you. A lot a marriage in that. Here's just some of what we get to do, and how fortunate. We get to see minor miracles all the time. So one of our colleagues, Thomas, his mother calls us in October of 2017 and says, "I understand you hire people like my son. I need you to give him a job." We're not hiring, we'll post when we are. She calls every day and the moms are persistent. She's not the only one who's done this. So I got on the phone with her and I said, "Well, tell me about Thomas." Mark : She says, "Well, he's early twenties. He's on the autism spectrum. And he's in a very bad way. He's very depressed. We have trouble getting him to come out of his room. He won't shower or shave. He doesn't want to deal with anybody. We can't get him to join any programs or activities. It's so bad he hasn't spoken to his father in over six months." Sounds like a great employee. Mark : So, we have an opening and bring him out. And the opening is for our sock wrangler position, that's kind of our entry level position. We pay $15 an hour to start because everybody, you got to pay a fair wage. The way you get the job, you meet with John and me. We want to make sure you understand the mission and our values. Then one of our current sock wranglers will train you and they love doing it. You've trained people. John : Yes. Mark : They love doing it. And then when you're ready, you have to pass the sock wrangler test. You got to pick six orders, 30 minutes or less, show us you can do the job. Well, Thomas comes out and after an hour of training, says, "I'm ready." And he passes that test as if he was put on this earth to be a sock wrangler. Today, on the days he works, Thomas is ready, showered and shaved at 6:30 in the morning for his father to drive one hour to work. When he gets in here, the young man who wouldn't look at anybody or talk to anybody, goes around and wishes everybody in the building a good morning. Mark : I want to be really clear here. We did nothing. We did no special training, no government funding, no special programs. All we did was give Thomas the opportunity to earn a job, and how fortunate are we? And so Holy Cross, the imprint that studying and understanding the liberal arts in the way it gets you to think and prepare, the way you imbue. Some of this comes from studying literature. You imbue different levels, different things all in the same action. That runs through what we do. I've spoken to students. Mark : So, I was an English major, I got out in 1980. There was no internet. Fax machines had not come, they've come and gone. There were no cell phones. We run an E-commerce business, I couldn't have studied that if I wanted to. But the liberal arts let you understand how to learn, how to figure things out, and so this runs through what we do today. And a lot of my classmates would be shocked to think that someone would be interviewing me for a Holy Cross alumni network. You've met those friends. John : I do. Mark : Paul, you should be talking to him. Paul Miles running a charter school and John Flynn, who's got this bicycle recycling program in Hartford. Charlie Brown or Chris Potter and Sue Mack and all these good people. Maureen, lots of good stuff. Maura : John, what's the best part for you about working with your dad? John : One thing I love working with my dad, I'm so lucky to be where he is. I'm never without my dad. He always, I've changed I can, if possible. I love my dad. Third and lastly, about my dad going to Holy Cross. I am a proud son because I am so, so happy of him being my father. Mark : What about your mom? You got to speak up for her, right? John : Yeah. I'll never forget mom. I am proud son. I am so proud of my dad, my mom accomplished. They are amazing accomplished. Mark : And you like hearing the stories of how we met, right? John : Oh yeah. Dad is so romantic. Mark : Romantic? Ricky, Kevin and I were looking for beer. And I can tease something for you. I'm not going any further than this. I've read in the alumni magazine and seen references to the fingers on the Jesus statue in the quad. I can tell you I was there and I know what happened. But that's it. No names, no details. Maura : Living mystery. That's what that is. Well, and my last question, this has just been really wonderful. What is your favorite pair of socks? Mark : What's your favorite pair? John : My favorite pair, my down syndrome superhero socks. Mark : Down syndrome superhero socks. Maura : Yes, that sounds like a good pair. Mark : Whose face is on those socks? John : Me. Mark : You. Maura : Good choice. Mark : You're a funny boy. Maura : I think we'll all have to check out that pair of socks. This has been an absolute pleasure. Is there anything else you want to share with listeners before we go? John : I want to say something. It's something that I said before... Mark : Go ahead. John : I am so proud of my dad's career. I am so proud of my dad's career and college. I am a proud son. I love my dad and what he did. It's wonderful. Mark : Well, there's a late poem from Yates where he recounts his achievements and those were notable, part of the revolution, part of the day of the Senate, winning a Nobel prize. But the refrain is what then sang Plato's ghost, what then are you going to do for me next? And we get to keep doing things, right? John : I love you dad. Mark : My boy. Maura : Thank you both so much. This has been just such a pleasure. John : I'm so proud of you Dad. Mark : Well, you let us know if there's ever something we can do. You got to put the pitch in. Where do people get stuff? John : At JohnsCrazySocks.com. Mark : There you go. Maura : Perfect. Yes. And I can say, I treated the alumni relations team to a pair of donut socks last year for Christmas, and they have been a big hit. So, I am a fan of John's Crazy Socks. Thank you for everything that you do. Mark : Well, thank you. John : I'm a big fan of my dad. Mark : You're a fan of your dad. Boy, you are being nice to me today. Maura : That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the Mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross, who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

My conversation with business owner John Towne about 2021 and the future. Today, I'm here with John Towne of Christian Companion Senior Care. John's a friend of mine, a staple in this community, and his business has taken incredible care of my family members and a lot of people we've referred his way. Dave: It's been a while since we last talked about your business. We've had a global pandemic. How have you navigated that, and how are you doing today? John: We've done pretty well despite the pandemic. Our business is slightly down around 10%, but through it all, we've remained open and kept all of our schedules without missing a beat so it's been very good for us and our clients. Dave: What are you most excited about doing for the rest of this year? John: Having the opportunity to grow and fulfill more people's needs. We've had to turn business away for 10 months, but now it's time to expand again. “John is a local business owner and provides a great service to the community.” Dave: I know you have lots of demand for your business. You have a lot of clients who are looking for a companion in their lives, and you are on the lookout for great people who are looking for a flexible work schedule. If there's somebody out there that would like to set up a conversation and join your team to help people in the community that could use their care, how can they best reach you to set up that conversation? John: The best way to reach me is our office phone at (717) 249-1700. You can also go on our website at christianseniorcarenetwork.com. Dave: I understand you want to give a shout-out to another business in the community. John: Yes, Brian Gobind of Quality Care Pharmacies is a fellow member of the Brand Ambassador program. He has done a terrific job of organizing and getting vaccinations spread across the county, and I think it's a wonderful thing that he's doing. It's been very helpful to our business, clients, and the whole community. Dave: John, thanks for being on with here with us today. John is a local business owner and provides a great service to the community.  If you know somebody who could use care or is interested in working with a great, giving company in the community, give John a call. They'll follow up and take great care of you, just like they have for me and many of my family members over the years.  If you have any real estate questions, please feel free to contact me at (717) 216-0806 or dave@davehooketeam.com. I'd love to help you. Talk to you soon.

Do you feel like you're nowhere near your goals? Do you want something so badly but think that it's impossible to achieve? Having goals in life gives us a sense of purpose. Whether they're for our career or relationships, goals push us to give our best. However, we sometimes set too many goals and find ourselves stuck. We can also feel discouraged from pursuing our dreams because we subject ourselves to other people’s standards. But while our plans may sometimes seem impossible, we have everything we need. If you can stay determined and learn how to prioritise, we can have our breakthrough. In this episode, Dr John Demartini joins us to talk about living your best life by structuring it. Learn how to prioritise and you can achieve anything. He shares the philosophy of the Breakthrough Experience, which has miraculously helped thousands of people reach their goals. John also discusses how to make decisions based on priorities, not emotions and instincts. If you want to learn how to prioritise and stick to your top priorities, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn about the Breakthrough Experience and how it has changed thousands of lives. Discover how to prioritise and determine your top priorities. John shares his secret to retaining Information in the quickest way possible.   Episode Highlights [05:00] About John Dr John is an educator, researcher and writer. He has spent over 48 years helping people maximise their potential. John wanted to know what allows people to do extraordinary things. That's why he distilled information from great minds throughout history. He made them into practical things that people today can use.  John had speech and learning challenges as a kid. At a doctor’s recommendation, his parents took him out of school and put him into sports. After having a near-death experience at 17, Paul Bragg inspired John to overcome his learning problems. With the help of his mom, he eventually learned how to read.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about John's inspiring story! [15:42] How Surfing Changed John’s Mindset Surfing has taught John that people are not going to excel without perseverance and commitment.  John converted his determination for surfing into persistence in reading.  [17:57] The Breakthrough Experience The Breakthrough Experience is a philosophy and program changing lives globally.  This system teaches you how to prioritise and structures life by priority. It breaks through limitations and helps achieve life goals.  John teaches people to use any experience, even challenges. These are catalysts for transformation and progress.  John has helped people learn how to prioritise to get their breakthrough experience in different areas of life. These include businesses, careers, health, relationships, among others. Lisa relates the Breakthrough Experience philosophy to when her mom had a severe aneurysm. [24:14] John Shares a Miraculous Experience At 27 years old, John handled a family with a son in a three-year coma. The family went to different hospitals in Mexico and the United States. However, they found none to help their son. They then went to John, and he thought of a maneuver to help the child. However, the treatment also came with significant risk. Listen to the full episode to find out how John helped a child get out of a three-year coma. [33:34] Jesse Billauer’s Breakthrough Experience Jesse Billauer, a surfer, decided to go to the Breakthrough Experience after a surfing accident.  At the time, he was depressed because he was physically unable to surf.  After the Breakthrough Experience, he learned how to prioritise and what his top priority was. Jesse became determined not to let anything stop him from surfing. Jesse developed a way to surf as a quadriplegic person. He taught others how to do the same.  [38:58] Herd Mentality in the Sciences New ideas are violently opposed and ridiculed. That's why people fear going against the norm. People who aim to survive follow the multitude. People who want to thrive create a new paradigm.  Each person can excel at anything if they focus on that, not on others' opinions.  [41:37] How to Prioritise John made a list of every single thing he does in a day over three months. He then placed multiple columns next to that list. The first column contains how much money each task produces per hour. The second column contains how much a job inspires him on a scale of 1-10. He also considered the cost and the time spent on each activity.  After doing that, he prioritised the activities that made thousands of dollars. He also focused on ones that scored ten on the inspiration scale.   John hired people for the low-priority tasks. This choice allowed him to be more productive in his top priorities. Within 18 months, his business increased tenfold. Listen to the full episode to learn how to prioritise and about investing in your top priority.  [56:19] How John Stays Looking Young John is almost 67 years old. However, Lisa describes him as someone who looks like a teenager. John doesn't eat junk. He drinks a lot of water, has never had coffee in his life and hasn't had alcohol in over 48 years. Doing what you love every day also slows down the aging process.  [58:03] Some Lessons from the Breakthrough Experience Nothing is missing in you. When you compare yourself to others, you'll try to live by their values or get them to live by yours. Both of these are futile.  Sticking to your values and priorities is key to resilience and success. People are different from each other, but no one is better than the other.  If you don't empower your own life, others will overpower you.   Your mission is something that you're willing to get through any means necessary. [1:06:38] How to Get Your Amygdala Under Control The amygdala is associated with emotions and the "fight-or-flight" response. Because we have neuroplasticity, we can remodel our internal system.  Perceiving challenges and feeling shame and guilt trigger an autoimmune reaction that attacks your body. Every time we choose to live by the highest priority, the amygdala calms down. The prefrontal cortex is reinforced. [1:12:03] The Mind-Body Connection Our psychological processes also affect our physiological processes.  People are used to blaming external factors. They don't take accountability for the things they experience.  John uses the example of when people get symptoms after eating unhealthy food. They don't face the fact that they brought it upon themselves.  Our bodies do an excellent job of guiding us. That's why we should learn how to listen to them. [1:18:13] The Journey to Financial Independence There is nothing evil about having money.  John believes that you can be a slave to money, or you can be a master of it.  Nothing is stopping you from doing what you love to do. [1:21:28] How to Retain Information Teaching what you've learned is the key to retention. Teaching compels your mind to organise ideas and reinforce them.  Teach the concepts as soon as you've discovered them. Don't wait until you're an expert on the subject. Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! You can choose between being an official or VIP patron for $7 and $15 NZD per month, respectively. Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-ageing and longevity with NMN Bio. Related Pushing the Limits Episodes 135: How To Make Better Decisions Consistently 183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Elena Seranova 189: Increasing Your Longevity with Elena Seranova Connect with John: Website | Facebook | Linkedin | YouTube | Instagram ‎The Demartini Show Demartini Value Determination Process The Breakthrough Experience program Join John's The Mind-Body Connection course Learn more about Jesse Billauer and his story. High Surf: The World's Most Inspiring Surfers by Tim Baker The Time Trap: The Classic Book on Time Management by Alec Mackenzie and Pat Nickerson  Brain Wash: Detox Your Mind for Clearer Thinking, Deeper Relationships, and Lasting Happiness by David and Austin Perlmutter The Top Five Regrets of the Dying: A Life Transformed by the Dearly Departing by Bronnie Ware   7 Powerful Quotes ‘I'm an educator, a researcher, a writer. I do a lot of interviews and filming for documentaries. I've been spending 48 years now on doing anything I can to help human beings maximise their potential.’ ‘I love studying and learning anything I can from those people that have done extraordinary things and then passing that on.” “I love anybody who's done something extraordinary on the planet in any field. I love devouring their journey.’ ‘No matter what the teacher was trying to do, I just couldn't read. And my teacher and my parents come to the school and said, ‘You know, your son's not able to read. He's not going to be able to write effectively’ because I wrote kind of backwards.’ ‘Well, I'm surfing the cosmic waves now. And in surfing big cosmic waves, radio waves that are big waves. Yes, that's the move from water waves into electromagnetic waves.’ ‘And so the Breakthrough Experience is about accessing that state. And breaking through the limitations that we make up in our mind and transforming whatever experiences you have into “on the way” not “in the way”.’ ‘She said that there was something that took over me, I can't describe it. It was like a very powerful feeling — like I had a power of a Mack truck. And me? I don't know how to describe it.’   About Dr John Dr John Demartini is an author, researcher, global educator and world-renowned human behaviour specialist. Making self-development programs and relationship solutions is part of his job. Among his most popular programs is the Breakthrough Experience. It is a personal development course that aims to help individuals achieve whatever goal they have. As a child, Dr John had learning challenges and could not read and write well until 18 years old. He has now distilled information from over 30,000 books across all academic disciplines and shares them online and on stage in over 100 countries.  Interested in knowing more about Dr John and his work? You may visit his website or follow him on Facebook, Linkedin, YouTube and Instagram.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can achieve their life goals by learning how to prioritise. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Dr John Demartini. He is a world renowned speaker, teacher, educator, researcher, medical doctor. He's written I don't know how many books, countless, countless books. He's an incredible, incredible man who teaches literally thousands and thousands of people every year in his breakthrough experience. The information that you're going to get in this podcast could change your life. So I've given you a fair warning. He's an amazing, incredible man that, and I've talked to a lot of incredible people but this one is really next level, he started out as a big wave surfer in Hawaii, way back in the day. Even knew Laird Hamilton and people like that. Had learning disabilities and could hardly read or write, and yet managed to overcome all these things to become one of the greatest scholars that there is. He's read over 30,000 books. He has distilled the knowledge from people right through the ages, through leaders and philosophers and stoics and scientists. He's an expert in so many different areas. He teaches people in business, he teaches people how to overcome massive challenges in their life. So I really hope that you enjoy this episode. It is going to get uncomfortable in places because we’ll talk about really being accountable, really understanding our own physiology, and just so much more. An absolutely amazing interview. So I hope you enjoy it.  Before we head over to the show, just reminder, we have our patron membership for the podcast Pushing the Limits. If you want to join our VIP tribe, we would love you to come and do that. It's about the price of a cup of coffee a month or two. If you want to join on the premium level, we would love you to come and join us. Support the show. Help us get this work out there. We are passionate about what we do. We want to change lives, we want to improve your life, we want to improve the lives of others. And we need your help to do that to keep the show going. So please, head over to patron.lisatamati.com. Check out all the premium VIP member benefits here, and support the show. Be a part of this community, be a part of this tribe. Help support us and reach out to me or the team. If you have any questions around any of the topics or any of the guests that have come up. We would love to hear from you. Any feedback is always welcome. Please always give a rating and review to the show as well on iTunes or whatever platform that you listen to. That is really, really helpful as well. We do appreciate you doing that. And as a reminder, please also check out our epigenetics program. We have a system now that can personalise and optimise your entire life to your genetics. So check out our program, what it's all about. This is based on the work of hundreds of scientists, not our work. It has been developed over the last 20 years, from 15 different science disciplines all working in collaborating together on this one technology platform that will help you understand your genes and apply the information to your life. So check that out. Go to lisatamati.com and hit the Work With Us button and you'll see their Peak Epigenetics, check out that program. And while you're there, if you're a runner, check out our Running Hot Coaching program as well. Customised, personalised training plans made specifically for you, for your goals. You get a video analysis, you get a consultation with me and it's all in a very well-priced package. So check that out at runninghotcoaching.com.  Now over to the show with Dr John Demartini. Well, Hi everyone and welcome to Pushing The Limits. Today, I am super excited for my guest. My guest is an absolute superstar. Welcome to the show. Firstly and foremostly, thank you very much for taking the time out today. Dr John, I'm just really excited to have you. Whereabouts are you sitting in the world? Dr John: I am in Houston, Texas. I'm in a hotel room in Houston, Texas, even though it shows that I've got a library.  Lisa: Yeah,I love that background. That is a fantastic background. Really great. Well, greetings to Texas and I hope that everything is going well over there for you. Today, I wanted to talk about you, your work, the breakthrough experience. Some of the learnings and the exciting mission that you've been on for now. For 47 years, I believe. Something crazy like that. So Dr John, can you just give us a little bit of a background on you and your life and what you do on a day to day basis? Big question. Dr John: I'm an educator, a researcher, a writer. I do a lot of interviews and filming for documentaries. I've been spending 48 years now, over 48 years, on doing anything I can to help human beings maximise their potential, their awareness potential, and achieve whatever it is that they're inspired to achieve. So that could be raising a beautiful family to building a massive business to becoming fortunate or celebrity, doesn't matter. It's whatever it is that inspires them. I've been studying human behaviour and anything and everything I can get my hands on for the last 48 years to assist people in mastering a lot. That's what I love doing. I do it every day. I can't think of any else I'd rather be doing. So I just do it. Lisa: It's a bit of a role model for me, Dr John, because I think what you have achieved in this time, the way you've distilled information, I mean, you've studied, last time I looked on one of your podcasts, that was over 30,000 books, probably more now. And you've distilled the information from great masters throughout history into practical things that humans today can actually benefit from. Is that a good assessment of what you basically have done? Dr John: I'm writing right now a 1200 page textbook on philosophers and great minds through the ages. I summarise it. I love studying and learning anything I can from those people that have done extraordinary things, and then passing that on. So yes. Right now, I'm actually, I just finished, I’m just finishing up Albert Einstein, which is one of my heroes. I had a dream when I was young. When I saw that E = mc² drawn on that board, I wanted to find out where that board was. I went to Princeton, and met with Freeman Dyson, who took over his position at Princeton in 1955. Spent part of the day with him and we're talking on cosmology. I wrote my formula on that same board, exactly the same place, because that was a dream that I had since I was probably 18, 19. Lisa: Wow, and you got to fulfill it and actually love it. Dr John: Yeah. Took me a bit of time. So what? But yeah, I love anybody who's done something extraordinary on the planet in any field. I love devouring their journey and their thinking. That's every Nobel Prize winner I've gone through and every great philosopher and thinker and business leader and financially or spiritually, to try to find out and distill out what is the very essence that drives human beings? And what is it that allows them to do extraordinary things? So I wanted to do that with my life. Most of the people I get in front of want to feel like they want to make a massive difference. They want to make a difference in the world. They want to do something that’s deeply meaningful, inspiring. And so yeah, we're not 'put your head in the product glue and let the glue stick' and then pass it on.  Lisa: Instead of having to reinvent the world, why not? So Dr John, can you give us a little bit of history though, because you're obviously an incredible scholar,have an incredible mind. But as a child, you struggled with learning and with reading and writing.Can you give us a little, how the heck did you go from being this kid that struggled with all of that to where you are today? One of the greatest minds out there.  Dr John:  Yeah, I definitely had some learning challenges. I had a speech challenge when I was a year and a half old to four, I had to wear buttons in my mouth and put strings in my mouth and practice using all kinds of muscles. Went to a speech pathologist. When I was in first grade. No matter what the teacher was trying to do, I just couldn't read. My teacher, and my parents would come to the school and said, 'You know, your son's not able to read. He's not going to be able to write effectively,' because I wrote kind of backwards. 'I don't think he's going to mountain and go very far in life, put him into sport.' Because I like to run. And I did sports there for a while. But then I went from baseball to surfing. I hitchhiked out to California and down Mexico and then made it over to Hawaii so I could ride big waves and I was doing big wave and stuff when I was a teenager. So I didn't have academics. I dropped out of school. I was a street kid from 13 to 18. But then right before 18 I nearly died. That's when I met Paul Bragg, who inspired me one night in a presentation. That night I got so inspired that I thought, 'Maybe I could overcome my learning problems by applying what this man just taught me. And maybe someday I could learn to read and write and speak properly.' That was such an inspiration, such a moment of inspiration that it changed the course of my life. I had to go back. And with the help of my mum, I went and got a dictionary out, started to read a dictionary and memorise 30 words a day until my vocabulary. I had to spell the word, pronounce the word, use it with a meaningful sentence, and develop a vocabulary. Eventually doing that 30 we would, we wouldn't go to bed. I didn't go to bed until I had 30 new words, really inculcated. My vocabulary grew. And I started to learn how to do the reading. It was not an easy project. But, man, once I got a hold of it, I never stopped. Lisa: And once you started to read, you didn’t stop. Dr John: I've never stopped. I've been a voluminous reader now. You know, 48 years. Lisa: That’s just incredible. Dr John: I can’t complain. Lisa: So was it a dyslexia or learning disability? I just asked because my mum was a teacher of children with dyslexia and things like that. Was there specific ways that you were able to overcome the disability so to speak? Dr John: Yeah, I just, sheer persistence and determination to want to read and learn. I remember, I took my first, I took a GED test, a general education high school equivalency test. And I guessed, literally guessed, I close my eyes. I said this little affirmation that Paul Bragg gave me that, 'I'm a genius, and I apply my wisdom.' And some miraculous thing made me pass that test. I didn't know how to read half the stuff that was on it. I just went with my intuition and guessed. And I tried to go to college, after taking that test and had the test. I failed. And I remember driving home crying because I had this idea that I was going to learn how to teach and become intelligent. Then when I got a 27, everybody else got 75 and above. I got a 27 and I thought, 'Well, there's no way it's going to work.' But then I sat there and I cried and my mum came home from shopping, and she saw me crying on the living room floor. She said, ‘Son, what happened? What's wrong?’ I said, ‘Mum, I failed the test. I guess I don't have what it takes.’ And I repeated what the first grade teacher said, 'I guess I'll never read or write or communicate effectively, or amount too much. I guess I'll go back to Hawaii and make surfboards and surf. Because I was pretty good at that.' And she said to me something that was a real mind bender. She put her hand on me and she said, ‘Son, whether you become a great teacher, philosopher and travel the world like your dream, whether return to Hawaii and ride giant waves like you've done, return to the streets and panhandle like you've done. I just want to let you know that your father and I are going to love you no matter what you do.’ Lisa: Wow, what a mum. Dr John: That was an amazing moment. When she said that, my hand went into a fist of determination. And I said to myself, ‘I'm gonna match this thing called reading and studying and learning. I'm gonna match this thing called teaching and philosophy. And I'm going to do whatever it takes, I'm going to travel whatever distance, I'm gonna pay whatever price, to give my source of love across this planet.’ I got up and I hugged her. And I said to myself, ‘I'm not gonna let any human being on the face of the earth stop me, not even myself.’ I got out of my room. And that's when I decided with her help to do the dictionary. That was an amazing turning point. Lisa: And I can feel it, the emotion and what a wonderful mum you had. I mean, what a perfect thing to say when someone's down. Dr John: It was the most. If she hadn't said that, I might’ve come back to surfing. I might  be a surfer today. Lisa: Which would have been a good thing as well, probably because surfing is great. Dr John: It didn’t make money in those days. I'm in the mid 60s and 70s, early 70s. But,, now, the guys I served with, Laird Hamilton and- Lisa: Wow. He's a hero is amazing.  Dr John: Both Ben Aipa, Gerry Lopez, and these guys, those are the guys I served with. And so those guys went on to be incredible. Lisa: I wasn't aware of that. Dr John: I lived at the same beach park in Haleiwa, where Ehukai Beach Park is, near Pipeline, between Rocky Point and Pipeline. Laird Hamilton was dropped off by his mother there and lived there on the beach. I lived up on where the park bench was. We lived right there and I saw him on the beach each morning. He was seven, I was 16. He was going on seven, I was almost 17. We live there at the same place and Bill Hamilton saw him out there and grabbed him and took him in and trained them on surfing and found his mum and then married the mum. That's how I became. I hung out with those characters. Lisa: Legends. You became a legend in this direction and they have become a legend in a different direction. Dr John: Well, there's a book out called The High Surf by Tim Baker. That’s from Australia. He wrote a book on people that rode big waves. And he said, 'I'd like to put you in there.' I said, 'Well, I didn't go on to be the superstar in that area like these other guys.' He said, 'But I want you in there because you became a legend. Lisa: Became a superstar. Dr John: Yeah Lisa: Do you think that there's, you know, I come from a surfing family. My brother's a big wave surfer in New Zealand. I've tried and failed miserably, stuck to running. I was better at it. But do you think there's a correlation between the mindset that you developed as a surfer? Because going in those big waves is scary. It's daunting. It's frightening. It's challenging. It's teaching you a lot. Is there a lot that you took from that for this journey that you've been on? Dr John: Yeah, I didn't surf anything more than 40-foot waves. So I think that was about as good as about as big as you get back in the 70s. At 70s is when I was- Lisa: Oh, just a mere 40, it’s okay. Dr John: Well, 40-foot waves was the biggest thing out in outer reef pipeline was the big thing. They hadn't had tow-in surfing yet. That was just, that wasn't begun yet. So there was that idea, we had to catch those waves. That was not easy because they're too big to catch. you got to have big long boards, and you got to really paddle to get into those waves, and it's usually too late. But I think some of those, I used to surf 11 hours a day sometimes. When you're really, really committed to doing something, that's... Einstein said perseverance is the key to making things happen and if you just stay with something. So, if you're not inspired to do something, enough to put in the hours and put in the effort, and you don't have somebody that you can bounce ideas off of, kind of mentoring you, you probably are not going to excel as much. But I did that. And then I just converted that over into breeding 18 to 20 hours a day, feeding once I learned to read, so I just and I still voluminously read I mean, I read every single day. Lisa: That is incredible. And so you've taken that big wave mindset a little bit over into something else. So obviously, everything you, do you do to the nth degree, we can probably agree on that one. Dr John: I'm surfing the cosmic waves now. And in surfing big cosmic waves, radio waves that are big waves. I move from water waves into electromagnetic waves. Lisa: Wow. Now, you run something called The Breakthrough Experience, which you've been doing now for 40 something years. This is a philosophy and a system and a program that really changes lives and has changed lives all over the planet. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've distilled from all this information that you have in your incredible mind? And what you teach in this course, and how this can actually help people? Today, right now listening to this? Dr John: Well, the breakthrough experiences, sort of my attempt to do with what that gentleman did to me when I was 17. I've done it 1121 times into that course. I keep records, and I'm a metric freak. Every human being lives by a set of priorities, a set of values, things that are most important. Lisa: Podcast life. Dr John: Welcome to it. I thought that was off, but I didn't quite get it off. But whatever is highest on the person's values, priorities, whatever is truly deeply meaningful to them, the thing that is spontaneously inspiring for them to that they can't wait to get up the morning and do.If they identify that and structure their life by priority, delegating the lower priority things and getting on with doing that, they will build momentum, incremental momentum and start to excel and build what we could say is a legacy in the world. And so, the breakthrough experience is about accessing that state, and breaking through the limitations that we make up in our mind,  transforming whatever experiences you have into 'on the way' not 'in the way.' So no matter what goes on in your life, you can use it to catalyse a transformation and movement towards what it is that you're committed to. And if you're not clear about it, we'll show you how to do it because many people subordinate to people around them. Cloud the clarity of what's really really inspiring from within them, and they let the herd instinct stop them from being heard.  I think that The Breakthrough Experiences is my attempt to do whatever I can, with all the tools that I've been blessed to gather to assist people in creating a life that is extraordinary, inspiring and amazing for them. And if I don't do whatever it takes in the program, I don't know when it's going to be. I've seen six year olds in there write books afterwards. I've seen nine year olds go on to get a deal with Disney for $2.2 million dollars. I've seen people in business break through plateaus. I’ve people have major issues with relationships break, too. I don't know what's gonna be. I've seen celebrities go to new levels. I've seen people that have health issues that heal. I mean, every imaginable thing, I’ve breaking through. I've seen it in that course. And it's the same principles applied now into different areas of life. In any other area of our life, if we don't empower, the world's going to overpower something. And I'm showing I want to show people how to not let anything on the outside world interfere with what's inside. Lisa: And you talk about, it's on the way, the challenges that we have to look at the challenges that we have and ask how is this going to actually help me get wherever I am. And this is something that I've managed to do a couple of times in my life really well, other times not so good. But where I've taken a really massive challenge, I had my own listeners, I had a mum who had a massive aneurysm five years ago, and we were told she would never have any quality of life again, massive brain damage. We know that's not happening on my watch. I'm going to, there is somebody in something in the world that can help with her. And this became my mantra that I was going to get back or die trying. That was that total dedication that I brought to her because of love. When you love someone, you're able to mobilise for the last resources that you have. And that nearly bloody killed me as far as the whole effort that went on to it, and the cost and the emotional costs, and the physical and the health and all the rest of it. It took me three years to get it back to health, full health. She's now got a full driver's license back and a full independent life back and as my wonderful mum again. And that was coming from a state of being in a vegetative state, not much over a vegetative state at least. Hardly any higher function, no speech, no move, be able to move anything. Dr John: That’s a book there. That's a book or a movie. Lisa: It's the book. Dr John: That's a book and a movie for sure. Lisa: Exactly. And this is very powerful. Because I saw this and when you're in the darkness, everybody is telling you there is no hope, there is no chance. And these are medical professionals who have been to medical school, who have a hell of a lot more authority than you. You just go, ‘No, I am not accepting it because that alternative means death, basically, decline and death in being in an institution. And that is not what I'm going to answer. I'm going to find somebody who can help me’ and I did. I found hundreds of people, actually, and this is what tipped me into doing what I'm doing now, is finding world leading experts to give me the next piece of the puzzle for her and for the people now that are following me so that I can help empower people, not to be limited by the people who tell us we can't do something. It's because that means basically they don't have the answer. Not that there is no answer, is my understanding. And they were right. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. But I did it and my mum is alive and she's well, and that book. I really want to empower people with a story. I see that same like they're obviously your passion. What you went through with your learning problems when you were young and your mum standing beside you has actually propelled you into this lifelong journey that I find absolutely fascinating because that passion, and I can see that passion in you, is still very much alive 48 years later because you're doing what your priority is. Dr John: I'm definitely doing what I love doing. It's interesting that your story reminded me of something that happened to me when I was 27. If you don't mind, I'd like to share this. So I graduated from my professional school. I had a bit of a reputation there of being kind of the taking the cream of the crop clients, patients that were turned down everywhere else. I just tackled it, see what we can do with it. And I got a family from Mexico, with a son that fell three stories off an apartment complex onto the ground on his head. He went into a coma, been in a coma for three and a half years. And the mother, they assumed he was dead a few times, but there was still a breath. There were still something. It wasn't a strong breath. You couldn't see it but you could put a mirror in front of you and get a little bit of breath out there. So he wasn't dead. And he had decerebrate rigidity. So his whole body was so rigid that when I saw him, you could lift up his feet and his whole body would rock. It was so stiff. His hands are like this. A classical decerebrate rigidity. And he had gone to, throughout different hospitals in Mexico, where he was from, and nobody checked them. They came to America, they went to the Medical Center in Houston, which is the largest Medical Center America. And they got rejected. No one would accept it. There's nothing we can do. They went out to the professional school that I'd gone to. And they said, ‘We can't do anything.’ But we know this interesting character. West Houston, if there's anybody that would try something this guy might try, who knows? And they sent him to my office. I remember when they came in, they carried him wrapped up in a white sheet, and laid him on the armrest of the chairs on my office. I looked out there and I saw this Mexican man and woman and seven or eight other kids in a family. I'm in this. At first, I didn't know what this was, this thing wrapped up in this sheet. They came down my hallway and I saw him going down the hallway. And like, ‘What on earth is this?’ Then they unveiled him in my exam room. And there was this 58 pound tube in his nose, coma case that was so stiff. It was ridiculous. I mean, he had gauze on his chin and his hand was rubbing on it and to protect the chin from having an ulcer. It had an odor to him in the head. It was just nothing. Just stare. He just sat there. But the mother and father said, ‘No, he's still alive. Please help.’ So I didn't really have much to do an exam with. So I got him, we took him in and did a film of his spine and his skull from the history. We found his foramen magnum, his skull was jammed down on a spinal cord and his spinal cord is up in his foramen magnum. This opening in the bottom of the skull. And I thought that night, when I was developing those films, and I looked at that I thought, 'I wonder what happened if I lifted that skull? If I've got that off? It could? Could something happen?' And I was scared because you just don't do that. He could die just instantly. I sent them over to this health food store to get him some liquid vitamins and minerals and amino acids to try to get nutrients in him because they're feeding him beans and rice with liquid. It was just crazy. So the next day came in. We had four doctors on a preceptorship visiting my office, one doctor that was working for me, one assistant, the seven or eight kids plus him and the mother and father in this little room. It was packed. And I said to him that I saw that on the film something that might have make him, help. I don't know, I can't guarantee it. But if we, if I did a particular manoeuvre, it might open up the brain function. And the little woman held on to her husband and she said, 'If he dies, he dies. If he lives, we rejoice. But please help us. We have nowhere else to go.' Lisa: Yeah. Wow. Dr John: She said that there was something that took over me, I can't describe it. It was like a very powerful feeling, like I had a power of a Mack truck in me. I don't know how to describe it. And I had this manoeuvre that we could do this, what they call the Chrane Condyle Lift, that can actually lift the skull up the spine. And I said to myself, if I'm not willing to have him die in my hands, I can't raise the dead with my hands as a little quote that I learned from an ancient healing philosopher. And I thought, 'Okay, we're, I'm going to take the risk, and just see what happens.' Because, I mean, I don't know what to do. I'm just gonna do it. Because I mean, they've got no place to go and I only took a rip. As I lifted that skull with this powerful movement. He came out of his coma. He came right out of the coma. He screamed, and this whining noise you couldn't. It was not coherent. It was just this whining sound. The whole family went on their knees, they were Catholic. They just went to their knees and prayed. I was blown away. I saw the four doctors one of them ran down the hallway and vomited, couldn't handle it. The other just stared. And here's this boy squirming on the table. I walked out to let the family be with the child for a minute and just sat with one of my doctors. We sat there and just cried. Because we knew that the spinal cord expressed life in the body. But we didn't know what would happen if we took the spinal cord, it just scanned off. Theoretically, it could kill you. But there was some still life in the spinal cord. Anyway, this boy went on to gain 20 pounds up to 78 pounds. We took him off the tube, we got him to move, we had everybody in the family take a joint in his body and move his joints to remobilise him. Sometimes I think we probably tore some ligaments doing it. But we got mobility. And this boy came out of it. And I have a picture here with me of the boy actually graduating from high school. Lisa: You’re kidding me? Why is this not an? What is not? Why have I never heard the story?  Dr John: I don’t get to share it too often. I didn't many years ago. I haven't practised in a long time. But all I know is that that was a moment that you just, it's probably like you had with your mum when you saw incremental progress. Lisa: Yeah. Just grind. Dr John: And I think that that's a metaphor. That's a metaphor. It doesn't matter where you've come from, doesn't matter what you're going through, doesn't matter what you've been through. What matters is you have something that you're striving for. And are you willing to do some incremental movement towards that? What else just said is, he's got a diagnosis. Diagnosis means through knowledge, supposedly, but it could also mean die to an agnosis. You don't know. Even the doctors don't know. But the reality is,  he came out of the coma. And I had over the next few months, I had some amazing cases of a boy that was blind and couldn't walk, and all of a sudden see and walked again. I had a boy that was paralysed quadriplegic, was able to walk. I mean, I had some amazing stuff happen. When you're willing to do what other people aren't willing to do, you're willing to experience when other people don't get to experience. Lisa: Yep, it is just so powerful. And I'm just absolutely blown away from that story. Because, I mean, I know with my mum who was only in a coma for three weeks, and had stroke and so on, and in the specificity and the things that I've had to deal with. The whole vestibular system being completely offline, she has like a rag doll, having to read, programming her from being a baby, basically, to being an adult, within that three year period with a body that is now like 79 years old. And the doctors going like, your brain can't change that much. And in just going, I'm going to keep going. I'm only listening to people who tell me I can do something, I'm not listening to anybody who tells me I can't do something. And this is something that I've really integrated into my entire life like as an athlete, doing stupidly long ultramarathon distances. I was always told you can't do this, and you can't do that. It's impossible. And I was like, 'We'll see.' I'm going to throw everything in it. And that was my passion at the time have now retired from doing the stupid distances because I've got other missions on in life. But whatever it is, is always the big mission. And then everybody comes up against people who tell you, you can't do it. This is one of the biggest limiting things that I see. Dr John: That's what Einstein said, greatness is automatically pounded by mediocre minds.  Lisa: Wow. Dr John: I had a boy, a boy attend my breakthrough experience, who had a surfing accident and became arms and legs not working, He could move his neck. He got a little bit of function slowly into the hand that was about it, just a tiny bit. And I remember a man wheeling him in and having them kind of strapped to a wheelchair. I knew the father and I knew his brother. There were doctors who were colleagues of mine. And they brought him, they flew him literally from Los Angeles over to Texas to come to the breakthrough experience. I remember him looking straight down really depressed, suicidal, because he was a surfer and he was on his way to being a great surfer. If he couldn't surf, he didn't want to live kind of. I remember getting on my knees and looking up at him at this chair, and I said, 'It all determines inside you what you decide. I don't know what the limit you have in your body. I don't know what you can repair. I don't know what you can do. I don't want to say you can't. But all I know is that if you're going to, you're going to have to put everything into it. You're gonna have to have no turning back kind of attitude. There's got to be a relentless pursuit of your master plan to serve.' His name is Jesse Billauer. He made a decision at the Breakthrough Experience that nothing was going to stop him from surfing again, nothing. He is really, in the room was absolutely applauding him. The before and after in that weekend was so astonishing that it was tear jerking. Well, about 17 years ago, 16 half years ago, I had the opportunity to get, I was living on the Gold Coast of Australia. I had many homes in New York and different places. But I had one in the Gold Coast of Australia in Aria, lived in the penthouse of Aria. And all of a sudden, I found in my entrance of my penthouse, which you only can get into with my key somebody from downstairs, put it in there like mail, a DVD video of a surfing movie, called Stepping Into Liquid. And when I pulled that up and put that in there, there was Jesse Billauer, surfing. He found a way of using his head muscles, and designing a special vehicle, a transport system, a surfboard. He had to have somebody take them out into the water and push him. But once he got on a wave his head movements were able to ride and he was riding like 12 foot waves, which is 20 foot face waves. He was doing that. And he was an inspiration. He became friends with Superman who had quadriplegia and they became friends and he created a foundation to do something but he taught people how to go surfing as a quadriplegic. So when the wise big enough to house take care of themselves, you've proven that in your book. What little I've done in my life compared to some of these kind of stories is just astonishing what I see sometimes people do. I mean, mind blowing stuff that people, that determination to overcome that are absolute inspirations. Inspiration is a byproduct of pursuing something that's deeply inspiring and deeply meaningful, through a challenge that people believe is not possible. That's inspiration. Lisa: That's how we grow as a human race. We have these amazing people that do incredible things. And these stories, I mean, these are stories that aren't even out there in the world, in a huge way. There are hundreds of these stories and thousands of these stories and miraculous stories. These are the things that we should be talking about. Because why are we not studying the outliers? Why are we not? When I look at my book, or my story, which I share publicly and not a single doctor that had anything to do with my mum ever asked me, 'Well, how did you do it?' Nobody is interested in why she has not taken the normal path as long gone. Nobody has asked me what did you do? People do. My audience want to know why. The people that follow me, etc. But nobody that was involved in that case. And I see that over and over again.  Dr John: It's forcing him to face their own, you might say, belief systems about what they've been taught. There's an educated awareness by the herd and then there's an innate yearning by the master. The master transcends the herd, if you will. You can be a sheep or a shepherd. The shepherd is the one that goes out and does things that the sheep are not willing to do. But then once they do it, they'll rally around it. They are there watching you to be the hero instead of becoming the hero. Lisa: Wow. And why is it in the medical fraternity that there seems to be a very big herd mentality, like no one is scared to step outside of their norms, and they get slammed. I see this in academia and in science as well, where people who have brilliant ideas and hypotheses and studies and so on, they just get slammed because it's outside of the current paradigm.  Dr John: William James, one of the founders of modern psychology, said 'To be great…' And Emerson followed in suit, 'To be greatest, to be misunderstood.’ William James basically said that the majority of people fear rejection from the multitudes because that was survival. People that are into survival follow the multitude. People that are in thrival create a new paradigm. At first they're going to be ridiculed. They're going to be violently opposed to Schopenhauer and Gandhi said, but eventually becomes self-evident. And you're either following a culture or building one. The people that do that build a new culture. They build a new culture of idea. Emerson said in his essays on circles, 'We rise up and we create a new circle of possibility. And then that becomes the new norm until somebody comes up and breaks through that concentric sphere with another circle.' It's like the four minute mile. I had a gentleman on my program the other day who is striving to be the fastest runner in the world. He's got bronze and silver medals, but he hadn't got the fastest running. And he's not stopping. He's working sometimes eight to 13 hours a day on this project. I believe that the way he's so determined to do it, and how he works on it, and he doesn't need a coach telling him what to do. He just does it. He's inspired to do it. He'll be the fastest runner, he won't stop till he's the fastest runner in the world. And that’s determination, that to be great at that one thing, find that one thing that you really target like a magnifying glass, on that you become the greatest at that thing.  Mine was human development, human behaviour. I want to have the broadest and greatest width of information about that. That's my one thing. But each individual has something that they can excel in, if they just define it, and give themselves permission at it, and say, thank you but no thank you to the opinions. The opinions are the cheapest commodities on Earth that would circulate the most as a use value. There’s ton of those. But those opinions aren’t what matter. It's not you comparing yourself to other people, it's you comparing your daily actions to what's deeply meaningful to you, and the highest priority actions daily, that’s what it is. Lisa: How do you, this is a problem that I face, get to a certain level of success and achievement, and then you start getting lots of offers and opportunities and so on, and you start to lose the focus. You get distracted from the things that are happening in this day and age where the internet and everything that ends up like I get the shiny object syndrome. And say, 'Oh, this is an extremely interesting area of study, and I should go down that path. And then I go down that path, and then I go down that path.' It is adding to the whole picture of a general education. as someone who studied as much as you have, you've obviously encompassed all of these areas. But I think what I'm asking is, how do you find out what your highest priority is? And how do you get a team around you, so that you're not limited? I think there's a lot of business people that are listening to this, me included in this, who has struggling to get past a certain ceiling because the area of genius is one thing that they love and excelling at, and you'd like to spend all of your time doing that. But you're stuck in the groundhog day of admin and technology in the stuff that you hate. And not busting through because financially, you can't delegate to people. You also got to find people that are a good fit for you who can do the jobs, and then also have the finances to be able to break through to that near next level. Can you talk to that about? Dr John: Yes, absolutely. When I was 27 years old, I was just starting my practice. I was doing a little of everything, anything and everything, just to get the thing cranking. I had one assistant that I hired. But I realised I was doing way too many trivial things. And that'll burn you out after a while if you're doing stuff that's not really what your specialty is. I went to the bookstore and I got a book by Alec McKinsey called The Time Trap. I read this book. As I read it, I underlined it and extracted notes like I do. I decided to put together a little sheet for it. I'll share that because it was a goldmine. I made a list of every single thing that I do in a day, over a three month period, because each day I had sometimes different things to do. But I wrote down everything I might be doing in those three months in a day. I just wrote them all down. And I don't mean broad generalities like marketing or this type of thing or radiographs or whatever. I mean, the actual actions. The actual moment by moment actions I do in those categories. I made a list of those and it was a big list. And I looked at it. Then right next that list, every single thing I did from the time I woke up to the time I went to bed, everything —  home, personal, professional. I wanted to know what my day looked. I want to be an honest, objective view of what am I actually doing with my day. Because if I want to create my life the way I want, I've got to take a look at what I'm actually doing because if I'm not doing things that give me the results, no wonder I'm not getting there.  I made that list, and right next to it, in column number two of six columns is how much does it produce per hour. Which is a measure of actually meeting somebody's need as a service and people willing to pay. How much is that produced per hour? And that was humbling because there are whole lot of stuff that I will do without pay. I was minoring in majors and majoring in minors. I was doing all kinds of stuff that was just cost, no return. I stopped and I looked at that, and that was humbling, and frustrating, and a bunch of stuff went through my mind. I mean, I just, but I had to be honest to myself, what does it actually produce? I extrapolate. If I spent two hours on it, what is it per hour? Cut it in half. If I spent 30 minutes, I’d double the number to get an idea what it is per hour. There's a lot of stuff that was not making anything and there was a few things that were making a lot.  The third column I wrote down, how much meaning does it have? How much is it that makes me inspired to get up and do it? I can't wait to do what people can't wait to get. Those are the things I want to target. So I looked at it on a one to ten scale, how much meaning it was. I made a list on a one to ten scale of every one of those items, how inspired am I to do that? And there's a lot of stuff on there that was not inspiring, that I didn't want to do. I thought, 'Hell. I went to ten years of college for this?' I made this list and I put this one to ten thing. And then I prioritised the tens down to the ones. I prioritise productivity down from the ones that made thousands of dollars an hour to nothing an hour. I just prioritise them. And then I looked. There were some that were overlapped, where the thing that was most meaningful and inspiring match where it’s most productive. I prioritise that based on the two together. And that was really eye opening. Then I went to the next one because I realised that if I don't delegate, I'm trapped. Then I put what does it cost? Every cost. Not just salary, but training costs, no hiring costs, parking costs, insurance costs, everything. What is the cost of somebody excelling at doing what it is I'm doing at a greater job than me? What would it cost? On every one of those items? The best I could do? I had to just guess on something, but I definitely did the best I could.  And then I prioritise that based on spread, how much it produced versus how much it cost. Then I put another column. How much time am I actually spending on average? The final column, I wrote down, what are my final priorities with all these variables? I did a very thorough prioritisation system there. I sliced those into ten layers. I put a job description, I put a job description on that bottom layer, and hired somebody to do that but bottom layer. It took me three people to get the right person because I had to learn about hiring. I didn't know how about, hiring. I finally got the first person there, and that was free. That allowed me to go up a notch. And then I hired the next layer. What I did is it allowed me to go and put more time into the thing to produce the most, which was actually sharing a message of what I was doing publicly, with speaking. Public speaking was my door opener. I just kept knocking out layers.In the next 18 months, my business tenfold in increase in income and business. I had 12 staff members and five doctors working for me in a 5000 square foot office from under 1000 square foot original office in 18 months. Because I said goodbye to anything that weighed me down. Anytime you do something that's lower on your values, and anytime something hone your value value yourself and the world values you when you value. It's waiting for you just to get authentic and live by the highest values, which is your ideological identity. The thing you really revolve around you. Mine was teaching, so I call myself a teacher, right? So whatever that highest value is, if you prioritise your day and fill your day with high priority actions that inspire you, it doesn't fill up with low party distractions that don't, because it's now you're allowing yourself to be authentic. And it doesn't cost to properly delegate if you get the right people, and you go on and do what produces more per hour, it doesn't cost it makes sense. Lisa: That's the hard part, isn't it? As is growing. Dr John: You do your responsibilities. Go do the thing that knocks down the doors and goes and does the deals and then go and let them do all the crazy work. Like when I was 27, that's the last time I ever wrote a check or did payroll or looked at bills. I never looked at that again. Because that's a $20 an hour job and I could make way more speaking and doing my doctrine. So I thought, 'I'm not doing anything that's going to devalue me ever again in my life.' I've never gone back. 38 years, I've never gone back. Lisa: So systematise. This is a thing here, where I have a bit of a problem, a bit of a chaos, right? Dr John: I'm an ignoramus when it comes to anything other than research, write, travel, and teach. I'm useless. I'm not. I do jokes and say when I'm having I want to make love with my girlfriend. I tell her. I put my arms around I said, 'If I was to organise and have Hugh Jackman or Brad Pitt take care of lovemaking for you on my behalf and things like that, would you still love me?' One time if she said, 'No, I will still love you more.' I'm joking. That’s a joke. But the point is that if you're not delegating lower priority things, you're trapped. Lisa: And this is the dilemma, I think, of small businesses is giving that mix right and not taking on people before you can go to that next level. Dr John: But you go. You go to the next level by taking them on if it's done properly. Lisa: If it's done properly, because I've- Dr John: You want to make sure. That's why I have a value determination process on my website to determine the values of people I hire because if they're not inspired to do what I need to delegate, that's not the right person.You gotta have the right people on the bus, this column says. I have to be clear about what I can produce if I go and do these other things. And me speaking it, and doing the doctoring on the highest priority patients was way more productive financially than me doing those other things. So once I got on to that, I put somebody in place just to book speeches, and just to make sure that I was scheduled and filled my day with schedules with patients, it was a updated day and night. I've never gone back to that. I only research, write, travel, teach. That's it. Lisa: That's my dream. I'm gonna get there. Dr John: I don't do it. What's interesting is I became financially independent doing that because of that. I learned that if I don't value myself, and I don't pay myself, other people aren't going to pay me. If they're waiting for you to value you add when you value you, the world values you. You pay yourself first, other people pay you first. It's a reflection, economically, there. And that's what allowed me to do it. Because financial independence isn't for debauchery and for the fun life, in my opinion. It's for making sure that you get to do what you love because you love it not because you have to do it. Lisa: And having an impact on the world. But if you're stuck doing the admin and the technical, logical stuff, and the crap that goes along with the business. You're not impacting the world like you want to be impacting. Dr John: Weel, the individual that does the administration is impacting the world through the ripple effect by giving you the freedom to do it. Lisa: Exactly. Dr John: If that's what they love doing. That’s not what I love doing. But there are people that love administration, they love that stuff and love behind the scenes, I love doing that. Finding those people. That's the key. Lisa: Finding those people. I's given me a bit of encouragement because I've been in that sort of groundhog days I had to get through the ceiling and get to the next level of reach. Dr John: I finally realised that the cost of hiring somebody is insignificant compared to the freedom that it provides if you do your priority. Lisa: If you get your stuff right, and know what you… Dr John: Because the energy, your energy goes up the second you're doing what you love doing. And that draws business to you. Lisa: Absolutely. I mean, like doing what we're doing. Now, this is my happy place.  Dr John: We’re both in our element. This is why we're probably going to slow down. The point is, when you're doing something you love to do, when you're on fire, with kind of an enthusiasm, people come around to watch you burn. They want to see you on fire.  Lisa: I mean, they do, they do. And I've seen that in times in my life where I've been preparing for a big race or something, and I need sponsors. I just go out there.  At the start, I didn't know how to do a sponsored proposal, I didn't know how to do any of that fancy stuff. I just went out there and told the story. And by sharing the story, people were like, 'I want to get on board with this. That's exciting.' People would come on in and and when you don't know, one of the things that I've found in life is the less you know, sometimes the more audacious you are. When you actually h

After UK Transition: Working with Chemicals - Episode - 4 - PPP, BPR and Industry voices In this instalment, we  invite two industry voices to discuss changes to Biocidal (BPR) and Plant Protection Product (PPP) regulations and explore the actions they have taken to keep their businesses moving following the end of the UK transition period. It should be noted that the views of any guests on HSE podcasts/recordings do not necessarily reflect those of the HSE or the wider government. Moreover, further website guidance was released in the time following the recording of this podcast. For the most up to date guidance relating to EU Exit, visit www.hse.gov.uk/brexit/chemicals-brexit-guidance.htm or email EU-exitchemicals@hse.gov.uk   Podcast Transcript   Welcome to the HSE podcast with me Mick Ord.  I hope you're well and looking forward to happy and prosperous year. In the past few episodes we've been hearing from some of HSEs and DEFRA's own EU regulatory experts about many of the changes that businesses face, now that the UK has left the European Union, and how they should prepare for it, but for this episode and the next one, it'll be a bit different.   We'll be hearing from the businesses themselves about what the past year has been like for them as they try to plan for life outside of the EU.  The views of people whose businesses are being affected on the ground provide much food for thought and I'm confident that some of the things that they've observed will be ringing true for many listeners to this podcast.  What they say will also hopefully help to steer you in the right direction as you maybe tackle some of the hurdles that they've been negotiating. In today's podcast we'll be hearing from John Mackenzie, the Regulatory Affairs Manager at the long-established chemicals manufacturer Thomas Swan.  They're a family owned and run business with a UK base in Consett in County Durham, directly employing around 170 people with other bases in the USA and China.  Also joining us is James Clovis, MD of London-based Gemini Agriculture – a company which specialises in the supply of agrochemicals to the UK market.  James founded the company five years ago. In this episode I've been talking to John and James mainly about how they‘ve been preparing for the changes in the regulations pertaining to PPP – Plant Protection Products – and BPR - Biocides Products Regulations.  First of all I asked John what it was like for his company navigating the transition period last year. John: In the beginning it was pretty difficult really because there was so little information.  I have to say that one of the immediate impacts of the vote to leave the EU was actually positive for us because the exchange rates changed and we were able to export more because we became more competitive in some markets and so actually it was a help in the beginning but the regulatory burden is going to be massive because of having to deal with two regulatory authorities – ECHA in Europe and HSE in the UK, but navigating it we just had to find whatever information was out there and initially there wasn't much. We've have kept in close touch with the Chemical Industries Association, the CIA and they've been brilliant with keeping us up to date.  We've had regular meetings with them and they've organised meetings with the Government Departments BEIS, (Government department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy) Defra, HSE and so on, that's been our main way of navigating it and finding our way through, up until more recently when more information has come out from Government departments.  The impact is mainly going to be dealing with two regulatory authorities like I said.  The regulatory burden is going to be increased in a department where there are only two of us working on regulatory issues.  It's going to mean quite a lot more work for us and therefore more cost.   James: I think John's nailed it there on the regulatory side.  We're quite lucky in Gemini because we primarily sell only in the UK.  I think from an import and export point of view that's where it's going to impact us the most.  A lot of the technical material comes from India and China which we can't manufacture within Europe and within the UK and I think it's going to have a fundamental impact on how we bring products in, you know what processes and what systems we have to work with and also how the parallels go and the extension.  The extension of the active materials for three years is going to be very beneficial in one way.  It kind of gives the UK a bit of longevity in certain products but it's also going to have a delay because ECHA was dealing with a lot of the Annexe I and Annexe II renewals and I think what's going to happen now is that we'll see delays and I think even for generics as well as the multi nationals, we are kind of locked out of those chemicals whether we can access them from a competitive point of view or just from a multinational trying to modify any of their registrations, they're going to be locked out for an extended period of time. Mick: And how can you prepare for something like that? James: Well it's interesting.  I think that from an import/export perspective, I think a lot of people have brought product into the UK whether it's technical material or finished goods.  I think we've seen an increase in product being brought in and stored.  I think we've seen an increase in utilisation of certain Toll Manufacturers, there's an awful lot of those being locked up very early on now.  So I think primarily there's a lot being brought into the country and is sat in warehouses and I think there are other preparations being made, but it's trying to be informed as you possibly can and myself and Gemini – we've spent a lot of time working with forwarders and the importers trying to make sure that any documentation or approvals that they need, have been submitted well in advance.   For Northern Ireland we've applied for an EORI number extension, the X number I believe it is now and so we are trying to do everything we can but again, we don't know all the answers yet so it's trying to prepare as best we can when something pops up, you've got to jump on it as quick as you can. Mick: John what actions have you taken or at least started to take to ensure your products are biocide compliant? John: The main thing we've done, well a couple of things really, but one of the big things is that we've recently transferred – there's a thing called the Article 95 list which is a list of active biocides that are allowed to be used in the EU, and so because we are out of the EU now, we had to transfer our registration on that list over onto our representative in the EU.  Now of course being a small company, we had to use a consultant to do that and of course they don't come cheap, so they are now going to become our representative in the EU working on our behalf and so we are now listed still on the Article 95 list, but with a representative in place rather than have a direct registration ourselves. The other thing we've done though, as a company we've decided as a mitigation against the potential border friction that will no doubt occur, we decided that we would apply for a thing called AEO which is Authorised Economic Operator, something which is much more common in Germany and some other European companies but not so common here.  I think the last count I saw was about 700 companies registered in the UK whereas there are about 10,000 or so in Germany.  Anyway, we did that, it was a lot of work but it means that now we are registered on that scheme, that should help with our paperwork, it should reduce cross border friction between UK and EU, but also within the EU itself so it means that the red tape is cut out to a large extent and means we can deal more directly with our customers in the EU. Mick: And James what about you on that score – what actions have you started to take?  James: What we've basically done is, all our registrations are UK Article 34 registrations, we have a couple of parallel imports as well.  So as it stands most of ours will be compliant to the new system and we won't need to do anything.   I think REACH is a slightly different kettle of fish and I think moving forward it's going to take – it depends how you approach it – I think there's going to be quite a lot of work for certain companies to make sure that all of the intermediates or components are registered in time.  We've started working with the supplier of the intermediates and also the Toll Manufacturers as well to make sure everything is REACH compliant when we know exactly what we need to do going forward for that.   Mick: We'll be touching on REACH in the next episode.  James what about PPP compliancy? James: As I alluded to earlier, all of our products are already registered with CRD/HSE and we expect that there won't be much change going forward to the existing registrations.  Going forward for new registrations though, that's going to be interesting to see if there's much change at all.  One, to the documentation or requirements but also I think, as I mentioned earlier, to see what happens with the delays on the Annexe I, Annexe II renewals.  From actions there's not much we can do now, we are basically sat in a holding pattern for certain products waiting for the protection to come down so we can apply for registrations.   There's not a whole lot on the action side that we need to prepare for. Mick: So it really is the information that you need isn't it?  That's what you're looking for and then you can take your actions.  So far, where have you been getting your information from, John you mentioned about the trade body before.  Do you visit the HSE webpages for example? John: Yes, I have done.  I have to say until recently at least, the HSE webpages weren't terribly helpful, but they've now improved that dramatically.  Recently, I was having a look at them and they've made a big change in the information which is available especially on REACH.  Biocide, it's getting there.  We've also used a lot of other sources too.  I find that the Government websites are pretty good now, there's a lot of information coming up on gov.uk/transition, but the main source for our information has been our trade body the CIA, at least in the initial stages.  Latterly, more like HSE and gov.uk. Mick: That's good to know.  What about you James? James: Very similar to what John's just mentioned.  We do use the CRD/HSE website for updates.  We do also use the Government emails and updates which are sent through as John mentioned.  And again we use the Crop Protection Association and they've disseminated quite a lot of information basically over the last two or three years with most of the changes as well as being involved in a lot of the work. Mick: John, and in fact you too James, where would you go to find more information? James: I don't know about John but I think primarily the internet is the No. 1 source for most of the information we've tried to find, but we've got contacts in CRD as well and without obviously getting anyone in trouble there's a lot of information you can actually request, so just by talking to some of the CRD members, you do get a good feel for the way things are going and they can also relate it back to specifics that you're going though.  So I think direct contact with CRD, the Government and emails. Mick: And you, John? John:  We've got a couple of different sources that we've got subscriptions to that we pay for information from.  Organisations like Chemical Watch, Kerona, (European Regulatory Consultants) people like that have provided us with information as well.  James is absolutely right, the best place is go to the internet and search on Google and ask a question and see what it comes up with.  HSE has been good as well though.  If you have a specific question for them, they've got a helpdesk and I've asked them a few questions over the past couple of years and they've been really helpful actually and pretty prompt in replying. Mick: And what actions would you recommend John for businesses which don't feel prepared? John: If you don't feel prepared, I would advise, go to the Government website, like I said before, gov.uk/transition they have a checklist which will provide you with a series of questions.  It will ask you a question and whether you say yes or no, it will give you different answers and take you different places and checklists to make sure you're covered with everything.  We've done this two or three times where every time you do it again, it comes up with something else.  It might not be related to biocides we are talking about just now, it might be if you are employing European nationals.  One thing that we've found, we've got one or two people from Italy, Spain and France working here and they need to consider the documentation that they need to have in place to continue to work in the UK.  There are grace periods.  I think that the European nationals are allowed up until sometime in June to submit whatever documentation they need, but they still need to do it. Mick: James have you got any handy hints for people listening who feel - Oh blimey, I'm not prepared? James: I think the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy is probably the best advice, but don't panic!  I think it depends on the size of the company.  I know big companies who've been scenario planning for years on the impact of Brexit.  From my side what I would say is, try to find out as much information as you can and I think make contact with trade associations – the CPA has done multiple things for our side of the fence, not only discussing things with Government officials and looking at presentations to the Expert Committee on approval process and things like that.  Most trades associations will be on spot with this so I would contact those but I would also talk to other companies.  You'll have competitors, you'll have partners in the industry and try and find out what they're doing.  John: James I really like your reference to the Hitchhikers Guide.  I've got written down here in big, friendly letters – don't panic, the world will not come to an end, the UK will continue to exist, we'll have new circumstances to adapt to and that we will adapt and we will survive, but it will just look different.   Mick: That's a good point to end this interview on John.  John Mackenzie and James Clovis thanks a lot for joining us today that was really, really useful.  In a couple of minutes time, I'll be giving out some really important information not only about the HSE website, but about the HSE's eBulletin service.  If you have a particular question you need answering, email us and we'll get back to you as soon as possible.   (Music Interlude) Many, many thanks to John Mackenzie and James Clovis for their time today and for sharing their views on the past few months, their hopes, fears and advice for the future.  I hope you found it useful. There were quite a few mentions in the interview of the HSE website which is being regularly updated with news and information on PPP and BPR not to mention the other regimes which have been affected by the changes.  We've updated our guidance on the chemicals industry – this is available on our website which is linked to the notes on this podcast.  Remember too to subscribe to our e-Bulletin newsletters – you pop your email address into the subscription box which appears on the pages of the website.  And if you want to contact our helpdesk with a question about the new regulations for the chemicals industry then email them at EU-exitchemicals@hse.gov.uk and we'll respond as soon as possible.  Again this email is in the notes which accompany the podcast. We won't actually be saying goodbye to John Mackenzie as he'll be joining us in our next podcast where he'll be discussing – along with another business guest, the changes to CLP, REACH and PiC regulations. The guest in question is Chris Howick, from Inovyn who, according to their website, manufacture a wide range of chemicals that are used as raw materials in almost every industrial process.  They specialise in Chlorvinyls and have sites in the UK and throughout Europe. So join me Mick Ord for what will hopefully be an enlightening and useful discussion with our two industry voices….take care and we'll hopefully catch up with you very soon.

John: So Sarah, do you play any musical instruments?Sarah: Yeah. I play two. I love to play the guitar. I started playing in college, and I like to play the piano, too. I started learning the piano when I was really young. How about you?John: Oh that's interesting. For me, I started playing the trumpet when I was really young, and I don't play it much anymore. But I started playing the piano when I finished high school, and I still play it now.Sarah: Oh wow. So you started learning the piano when you were older.John: Yes.Sarah: Do you think people can start to learn an instrument at any age?John: Yes, I think so. Do you have a theory about that?Sarah: Yeah. I think that if people start to play an instrument when they're older, I think they enjoy it more because they chose to learn it. And I think they're going to play it longer. But if you have to learn an instrument when you're younger, I think you won't continue playing it.John: Oh, because you have to practice for homework or something like that.Sarah: Yeah. I have five brothers. And we all learned how to play the piano, but as soon as my brothers graduated from high school and went away, they stopped playing the piano. And they don't play it now. In fact, they forgot everything.John: Oh, wow.Sarah: Yeah.John: Well, I do think that music education is very important for children because reading sheet music is like reading a language. And children can learn it much easier than adults learn. So no matter what instrument you play, if you're a child you learn how to read music.Sarah: And I think too, it's really important for kids to be a part of a group like that. For example, singing in the choir or playing music in the orchestra, I think it's really good for kids to learn to work together and make music as a team. I have some really good memories about being a young kid in the orchestra.John: Me too. I was also in choir and orchestra and marching band. So I don't play the orchestra instruments anymore and I don't play the marching band instruments anymore but I'm very glad that I had the experience of learning to read music and learning to work together as a team.Sarah: That's true. Me too. Okay. I changed my mind. Even little kids, they should learn how to play a musical instrument.

John: So Sarah, do you play any musical instruments?Sarah: Yeah. I play two. I love to play the guitar. I started playing in college, and I like to play the piano, too. I started learning the piano when I was really young. How about you?John: Oh that's interesting. For me, I started playing the trumpet when I was really young, and I don't play it much anymore. But I started playing the piano when I finished high school, and I still play it now.Sarah: Oh wow. So you started learning the piano when you were older.John: Yes.Sarah: Do you think people can start to learn an instrument at any age?John: Yes, I think so. Do you have a theory about that?Sarah: Yeah. I think that if people start to play an instrument when they're older, I think they enjoy it more because they chose to learn it. And I think they're going to play it longer. But if you have to learn an instrument when you're younger, I think you won't continue playing it.John: Oh, because you have to practice for homework or something like that.Sarah: Yeah. I have five brothers. And we all learned how to play the piano, but as soon as my brothers graduated from high school and went away, they stopped playing the piano. And they don't play it now. In fact, they forgot everything.John: Oh, wow.Sarah: Yeah.John: Well, I do think that music education is very important for children because reading sheet music is like reading a language. And children can learn it much easier than adults learn. So no matter what instrument you play, if you're a child you learn how to read music.Sarah: And I think too, it's really important for kids to be a part of a group like that. For example, singing in the choir or playing music in the orchestra, I think it's really good for kids to learn to work together and make music as a team. I have some really good memories about being a young kid in the orchestra.John: Me too. I was also in choir and orchestra and marching band. So I don't play the orchestra instruments anymore and I don't play the marching band instruments anymore but I'm very glad that I had the experience of learning to read music and learning to work together as a team.Sarah: That's true. Me too. Okay. I changed my mind. Even little kids, they should learn how to play a musical instrument.

John: So Sarah, do you play any musical instruments?Sarah: Yeah. I play two. I love to play the guitar. I started playing in college, and I like to play the piano, too. I started learning the piano when I was really young. How about you?John: Oh that's interesting. For me, I started playing the trumpet when I was really young, and I don't play it much anymore. But I started playing the piano when I finished high school, and I still play it now.Sarah: Oh wow. So you started learning the piano when you were older.John: Yes.Sarah: Do you think people can start to learn an instrument at any age?John: Yes, I think so. Do you have a theory about that?Sarah: Yeah. I think that if people start to play an instrument when they're older, I think they enjoy it more because they chose to learn it. And I think they're going to play it longer. But if you have to learn an instrument when you're younger, I think you won't continue playing it.John: Oh, because you have to practice for homework or something like that.Sarah: Yeah. I have five brothers. And we all learned how to play the piano, but as soon as my brothers graduated from high school and went away, they stopped playing the piano. And they don't play it now. In fact, they forgot everything.John: Oh, wow.Sarah: Yeah.John: Well, I do think that music education is very important for children because reading sheet music is like reading a language. And children can learn it much easier than adults learn. So no matter what instrument you play, if you're a child you learn how to read music.Sarah: And I think too, it's really important for kids to be a part of a group like that. For example, singing in the choir or playing music in the orchestra, I think it's really good for kids to learn to work together and make music as a team. I have some really good memories about being a young kid in the orchestra.John: Me too. I was also in choir and orchestra and marching band. So I don't play the orchestra instruments anymore and I don't play the marching band instruments anymore but I'm very glad that I had the experience of learning to read music and learning to work together as a team.Sarah: That's true. Me too. Okay. I changed my mind. Even little kids, they should learn how to play a musical instrument.

Sarah: So John, you're an English teacher now. Is that right?John: Yes. I've been an English teacher for six years now.Sarah: Do you always want to be an English teacher?John: Well actually, recently, I've been thinking about changing my job.Sarah: Oh?John: Yes. I have been studying math and science.Sarah: Oh.John: I'm learning a lot more about math these days. I hope in the future I can be a math teacher.Sarah: That sounds interesting.John: Yes, I think so. I think math is important because if we can understand math, we learn new ways to think about problems.Sarah: What age student do you want to teach math to?John: I think I would enjoy teaching junior high school students.Sarah: So you said you're studying math now.John: That's right.Sarah: How do you do it? Do you study online?John: That's exactly right. I study online from various websites and these websites connect you to free online courses from real universities around the world.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So I signed up for a free algebra class from a university in the United States.Sarah: Will you get a degree when you finish?John: Well you can. For every course you finish you can get a certificate that says you passed this course. And if you sign up for a series of courses, you can get a certification in a field like math or science.Sarah: Oh really? And it's all online?John: Yeah. And it's not only math or science, you can choose any field you want. I've been thinking of studying Spanish language there and you can study computer programming or history or law.Sarah: Oh, interesting. Maybe I'll try it.John: You should. They have different types of classes. You can study by yourself by watching videos or you can even have an interactive class with a real teacher and you can meet through video chat.Sarah: Wow. Hey, thank you.John: Yeah, you should try this opportunity.Sarah: I will.

Sarah: So John, you're an English teacher now. Is that right?John: Yes. I've been an English teacher for six years now.Sarah: Do you always want to be an English teacher?John: Well actually, recently, I've been thinking about changing my job.Sarah: Oh?John: Yes. I have been studying math and science.Sarah: Oh.John: I'm learning a lot more about math these days. I hope in the future I can be a math teacher.Sarah: That sounds interesting.John: Yes, I think so. I think math is important because if we can understand math, we learn new ways to think about problems.Sarah: What age student do you want to teach math to?John: I think I would enjoy teaching junior high school students.Sarah: So you said you're studying math now.John: That's right.Sarah: How do you do it? Do you study online?John: That's exactly right. I study online from various websites and these websites connect you to free online courses from real universities around the world.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So I signed up for a free algebra class from a university in the United States.Sarah: Will you get a degree when you finish?John: Well you can. For every course you finish you can get a certificate that says you passed this course. And if you sign up for a series of courses, you can get a certification in a field like math or science.Sarah: Oh really? And it's all online?John: Yeah. And it's not only math or science, you can choose any field you want. I've been thinking of studying Spanish language there and you can study computer programming or history or law.Sarah: Oh, interesting. Maybe I'll try it.John: You should. They have different types of classes. You can study by yourself by watching videos or you can even have an interactive class with a real teacher and you can meet through video chat.Sarah: Wow. Hey, thank you.John: Yeah, you should try this opportunity.Sarah: I will.

Sarah: So John, you're an English teacher now. Is that right?John: Yes. I've been an English teacher for six years now.Sarah: Do you always want to be an English teacher?John: Well actually, recently, I've been thinking about changing my job.Sarah: Oh?John: Yes. I have been studying math and science.Sarah: Oh.John: I'm learning a lot more about math these days. I hope in the future I can be a math teacher.Sarah: That sounds interesting.John: Yes, I think so. I think math is important because if we can understand math, we learn new ways to think about problems.Sarah: What age student do you want to teach math to?John: I think I would enjoy teaching junior high school students.Sarah: So you said you're studying math now.John: That's right.Sarah: How do you do it? Do you study online?John: That's exactly right. I study online from various websites and these websites connect you to free online courses from real universities around the world.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So I signed up for a free algebra class from a university in the United States.Sarah: Will you get a degree when you finish?John: Well you can. For every course you finish you can get a certificate that says you passed this course. And if you sign up for a series of courses, you can get a certification in a field like math or science.Sarah: Oh really? And it's all online?John: Yeah. And it's not only math or science, you can choose any field you want. I've been thinking of studying Spanish language there and you can study computer programming or history or law.Sarah: Oh, interesting. Maybe I'll try it.John: You should. They have different types of classes. You can study by yourself by watching videos or you can even have an interactive class with a real teacher and you can meet through video chat.Sarah: Wow. Hey, thank you.John: Yeah, you should try this opportunity.Sarah: I will.

Sarah: We've been hearing a lot about Mars in the news.John: Yeah, NASA keeps coming out with announcements every year.Sarah: We just found out that there's water on Mars - liquid water.John: Yes, recently they revealed that there's evidence of liquid water.Sarah: That's crazy.John: Last year they announced that they definitely found ice - solid water - in the soil. In the soil on Mar's surface the found frozen water. Now they found evidence of liquid water flowing.Sarah: Do you think people can go to Mars? Do you think we should send people to Mars?John: I definitely think we can go there. We've already sent a number of spacecraftto Mars, starting with satellites many decades ago. Then there were landers, where satellites landed on the surface and sent data back to Earth. Then we sent the rovers. Little robot cars that drive around on Mars, so we've already successfully sent many missions to Mars. I'm sure we can do it with humans.Sarah: But none of the satellites or landers or rovers, they've never come back. Do you think we could send people and they'd come back safely?John: Well, that is a problem. We could definitely send people to Mars, but bringing them back, having the astronauts come back to Earth, would be a much more difficult problem to solve.Sarah: So you think maybe we would send astronauts to Mars? They would never come back safely?John: Well, if you think about the old explorers, in the olden days ... explorers used to leave their home, and find new regions and not plan to go back. People used to take a risk, and maybe they couldn't return, so I think there are people who are willing to go on a one-way trip to Mars. I'm sure there are people willing to do that, but are the rest of the people willing to send someone on that mission? I think some people will say yes, and some people will say no. I don't know what the percent would be, but I'm willing to allow someone to do that. If someone says I want to go to Mars. I know it's a one-way trip, but I want to go. I think that's OK. We should let them go.Sarah: How about you? Would you volunteer to go?John: Oh, no. Not me. I'm staying here on Earth.Sarah: OK.

Sarah: We've been hearing a lot about Mars in the news.John: Yeah, NASA keeps coming out with announcements every year.Sarah: We just found out that there's water on Mars - liquid water.John: Yes, recently they revealed that there's evidence of liquid water.Sarah: That's crazy.John: Last year they announced that they definitely found ice - solid water - in the soil. In the soil on Mar's surface the found frozen water. Now they found evidence of liquid water flowing.Sarah: Do you think people can go to Mars? Do you think we should send people to Mars?John: I definitely think we can go there. We've already sent a number of spacecraftto Mars, starting with satellites many decades ago. Then there were landers, where satellites landed on the surface and sent data back to Earth. Then we sent the rovers. Little robot cars that drive around on Mars, so we've already successfully sent many missions to Mars. I'm sure we can do it with humans.Sarah: But none of the satellites or landers or rovers, they've never come back. Do you think we could send people and they'd come back safely?John: Well, that is a problem. We could definitely send people to Mars, but bringing them back, having the astronauts come back to Earth, would be a much more difficult problem to solve.Sarah: So you think maybe we would send astronauts to Mars? They would never come back safely?John: Well, if you think about the old explorers, in the olden days ... explorers used to leave their home, and find new regions and not plan to go back. People used to take a risk, and maybe they couldn't return, so I think there are people who are willing to go on a one-way trip to Mars. I'm sure there are people willing to do that, but are the rest of the people willing to send someone on that mission? I think some people will say yes, and some people will say no. I don't know what the percent would be, but I'm willing to allow someone to do that. If someone says I want to go to Mars. I know it's a one-way trip, but I want to go. I think that's OK. We should let them go.Sarah: How about you? Would you volunteer to go?John: Oh, no. Not me. I'm staying here on Earth.Sarah: OK.

Sarah: We've been hearing a lot about Mars in the news.John: Yeah, NASA keeps coming out with announcements every year.Sarah: We just found out that there's water on Mars - liquid water.John: Yes, recently they revealed that there's evidence of liquid water.Sarah: That's crazy.John: Last year they announced that they definitely found ice - solid water - in the soil. In the soil on Mar's surface the found frozen water. Now they found evidence of liquid water flowing.Sarah: Do you think people can go to Mars? Do you think we should send people to Mars?John: I definitely think we can go there. We've already sent a number of spacecraftto Mars, starting with satellites many decades ago. Then there were landers, where satellites landed on the surface and sent data back to Earth. Then we sent the rovers. Little robot cars that drive around on Mars, so we've already successfully sent many missions to Mars. I'm sure we can do it with humans.Sarah: But none of the satellites or landers or rovers, they've never come back. Do you think we could send people and they'd come back safely?John: Well, that is a problem. We could definitely send people to Mars, but bringing them back, having the astronauts come back to Earth, would be a much more difficult problem to solve.Sarah: So you think maybe we would send astronauts to Mars? They would never come back safely?John: Well, if you think about the old explorers, in the olden days ... explorers used to leave their home, and find new regions and not plan to go back. People used to take a risk, and maybe they couldn't return, so I think there are people who are willing to go on a one-way trip to Mars. I'm sure there are people willing to do that, but are the rest of the people willing to send someone on that mission? I think some people will say yes, and some people will say no. I don't know what the percent would be, but I'm willing to allow someone to do that. If someone says I want to go to Mars. I know it's a one-way trip, but I want to go. I think that's OK. We should let them go.Sarah: How about you? Would you volunteer to go?John: Oh, no. Not me. I'm staying here on Earth.Sarah: OK.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: So John, you told me about the paleo diet and what it is. But why did you decide to eat like that?John: Well, let me tell you. I was feeling sick for a long time.Sarah: Oh, I'm sorry.John: Oh, it's okay now.Thanks though. I started to feel sick three years ago, and then it got worse and worse in my stomach. I had lots of stomach trouble called indigestion, and I didn't know why until I found out that some foods are healthier than others. So that's why I started learning about the paleo diet and eating healthy. I found that we should eat fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and we definitely shouldn't eat fast food. And we shouldn't eat very many snacks either.Sarah: Oh.John: And because I was sick with my stomach trouble, I was also feeling depressed. But I learned that our moods and our emotions can be affected by what we eat.Sarah: Really?John: Yes. I was very surprised to learn that. But it makes sense because our brain chemistry comes from the foods we eat. When we eat healthy foods, we get good chemistry in our body and our brains can function normally, and we can have good moods and good emotions.Sarah: So you feel happier and healthier now that you changed your diet.John: That's true. But changing my diet wasn't enough. Even though I fixed my diet, I still didn't feel 100 percent. So I had to do more research. And I found something else that's very important.I didn't realize before but everyone needs to get enough exercise every week. In fact, it's best if you can exercise 30 minutes every day.Sarah: Everyday?John: Well, of course you can take a day off. Two days off each week is okay. And you don't have to do very difficult exercise. Just riding a bicycle or jogging is enough. But I also found that having a healthy diet and getting enough exercise is still not enough because you need two more important factors.Sarah: What are they?John: One is called stress management. When we feel stressed, our body has a reaction to stress, and it can make you feel sick, and it can put you in a bad mood. So we need to learn ways to manage our stress. So we need to learn how to breathe deeply and relax more. And when we encounter stress, we should learn healthy ways to react and not react in unhealthy ways, such as getting angry or feeling frustrated.Sarah: What's a healthy way to react?John: Well first, you should breathe and relax your body by slowing down. And then you should think calmly and clearly about the best way to handle a problem. So don't just worry about the problem and think about what can go wrong, but think calmly about ways to solve problems.Sarah: Okay.John: But I found the most important factor in feeling healthy was a big surprise to me.Sarah: What was it?John: We need to get enough sleep.Sarah: Oh.John: Everyone knows we should sleep more but very few people sleep enough. Most adults should sleep 8 hours every night. I was only sleeping 5 or 6 hours every night.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So sleeping at night is like recharging your battery, right. So do you have a cell phone?Sarah: Sure, of course.John: What do you do when the battery is dead?Sarah: I plug it in.John: Yeah. And you need to leave it plugged in until it has a full charge. Well, not sleeping enough is just like unplugging your phone before it's charged. So it's much better to have a healthy diet and get a regular exercise, learn stress management skills, and most importantly, get enough sleep every night.Sarah: Okay. I'll try hard. Thank you.

Sarah: So John, you told me about the paleo diet and what it is. But why did you decide to eat like that?John: Well, let me tell you. I was feeling sick for a long time.Sarah: Oh, I'm sorry.John: Oh, it's okay now.Thanks though. I started to feel sick three years ago, and then it got worse and worse in my stomach. I had lots of stomach trouble called indigestion, and I didn't know why until I found out that some foods are healthier than others. So that's why I started learning about the paleo diet and eating healthy. I found that we should eat fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and we definitely shouldn't eat fast food. And we shouldn't eat very many snacks either.Sarah: Oh.John: And because I was sick with my stomach trouble, I was also feeling depressed. But I learned that our moods and our emotions can be affected by what we eat.Sarah: Really?John: Yes. I was very surprised to learn that. But it makes sense because our brain chemistry comes from the foods we eat. When we eat healthy foods, we get good chemistry in our body and our brains can function normally, and we can have good moods and good emotions.Sarah: So you feel happier and healthier now that you changed your diet.John: That's true. But changing my diet wasn't enough. Even though I fixed my diet, I still didn't feel 100 percent. So I had to do more research. And I found something else that's very important.I didn't realize before but everyone needs to get enough exercise every week. In fact, it's best if you can exercise 30 minutes every day.Sarah: Everyday?John: Well, of course you can take a day off. Two days off each week is okay. And you don't have to do very difficult exercise. Just riding a bicycle or jogging is enough. But I also found that having a healthy diet and getting enough exercise is still not enough because you need two more important factors.Sarah: What are they?John: One is called stress management. When we feel stressed, our body has a reaction to stress, and it can make you feel sick, and it can put you in a bad mood. So we need to learn ways to manage our stress. So we need to learn how to breathe deeply and relax more. And when we encounter stress, we should learn healthy ways to react and not react in unhealthy ways, such as getting angry or feeling frustrated.Sarah: What's a healthy way to react?John: Well first, you should breathe and relax your body by slowing down. And then you should think calmly and clearly about the best way to handle a problem. So don't just worry about the problem and think about what can go wrong, but think calmly about ways to solve problems.Sarah: Okay.John: But I found the most important factor in feeling healthy was a big surprise to me.Sarah: What was it?John: We need to get enough sleep.Sarah: Oh.John: Everyone knows we should sleep more but very few people sleep enough. Most adults should sleep 8 hours every night. I was only sleeping 5 or 6 hours every night.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So sleeping at night is like recharging your battery, right. So do you have a cell phone?Sarah: Sure, of course.John: What do you do when the battery is dead?Sarah: I plug it in.John: Yeah. And you need to leave it plugged in until it has a full charge. Well, not sleeping enough is just like unplugging your phone before it's charged. So it's much better to have a healthy diet and get a regular exercise, learn stress management skills, and most importantly, get enough sleep every night.Sarah: Okay. I'll try hard. Thank you.

Sarah: So John, you told me about the paleo diet and what it is. But why did you decide to eat like that?John: Well, let me tell you. I was feeling sick for a long time.Sarah: Oh, I'm sorry.John: Oh, it's okay now.Thanks though. I started to feel sick three years ago, and then it got worse and worse in my stomach. I had lots of stomach trouble called indigestion, and I didn't know why until I found out that some foods are healthier than others. So that's why I started learning about the paleo diet and eating healthy. I found that we should eat fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and we definitely shouldn't eat fast food. And we shouldn't eat very many snacks either.Sarah: Oh.John: And because I was sick with my stomach trouble, I was also feeling depressed. But I learned that our moods and our emotions can be affected by what we eat.Sarah: Really?John: Yes. I was very surprised to learn that. But it makes sense because our brain chemistry comes from the foods we eat. When we eat healthy foods, we get good chemistry in our body and our brains can function normally, and we can have good moods and good emotions.Sarah: So you feel happier and healthier now that you changed your diet.John: That's true. But changing my diet wasn't enough. Even though I fixed my diet, I still didn't feel 100 percent. So I had to do more research. And I found something else that's very important.I didn't realize before but everyone needs to get enough exercise every week. In fact, it's best if you can exercise 30 minutes every day.Sarah: Everyday?John: Well, of course you can take a day off. Two days off each week is okay. And you don't have to do very difficult exercise. Just riding a bicycle or jogging is enough. But I also found that having a healthy diet and getting enough exercise is still not enough because you need two more important factors.Sarah: What are they?John: One is called stress management. When we feel stressed, our body has a reaction to stress, and it can make you feel sick, and it can put you in a bad mood. So we need to learn ways to manage our stress. So we need to learn how to breathe deeply and relax more. And when we encounter stress, we should learn healthy ways to react and not react in unhealthy ways, such as getting angry or feeling frustrated.Sarah: What's a healthy way to react?John: Well first, you should breathe and relax your body by slowing down. And then you should think calmly and clearly about the best way to handle a problem. So don't just worry about the problem and think about what can go wrong, but think calmly about ways to solve problems.Sarah: Okay.John: But I found the most important factor in feeling healthy was a big surprise to me.Sarah: What was it?John: We need to get enough sleep.Sarah: Oh.John: Everyone knows we should sleep more but very few people sleep enough. Most adults should sleep 8 hours every night. I was only sleeping 5 or 6 hours every night.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So sleeping at night is like recharging your battery, right. So do you have a cell phone?Sarah: Sure, of course.John: What do you do when the battery is dead?Sarah: I plug it in.John: Yeah. And you need to leave it plugged in until it has a full charge. Well, not sleeping enough is just like unplugging your phone before it's charged. So it's much better to have a healthy diet and get a regular exercise, learn stress management skills, and most importantly, get enough sleep every night.Sarah: Okay. I'll try hard. Thank you.

Sarah: So John, I heard you've been trying out a new diet. Can you tell me about it?John: Yes. I've been trying the paleo diet.Sarah: What's that?John: Well, this diet is supposed to make you feel better and eat healthier. And the idea is that a lot of the problems we have with health, a lot of modern human health problems, come from the foods we eat. So the idea is that maybe we should eat a diet which is closer to what early humans ate before.Sarah: Early humans ate? Like what did they eat?John: Well, they mostly ate fruits, and berries, and nuts, and meat. They didn't eat grains because grains come from agriculture, from growing plants on purpose.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: And they didn't eat bread and cake and cookies and crackers.Sarah: It sounds like a hard diet to keep.John: It's a little difficult at first. What you have to realize is that these foods are refined foods. Refined foods are not really natural foods because humans have to do a lot of cooking processes to make these foods.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: When you want to eat natural, you should eat food just the way it comes like raw vegetables and fresh fruit and meat that isn't processed. So you can't eat hotdogs.Sarah: Okay.John: And sausage.Sarah: Okay.John: But you can have steak…Sarah: It sounds…John: And fish.Sarah: It sounds like an expensive diet.John: Well actually, it turns out that when you eat fresh vegetables and fresh fruits, it can be cheaper. Processed food, refined food, comes in lots of packaging from the store, and sometimes it can be more expensive for convenience. Modern humans eat these processed foods for convenience. You don't have to wash it. You don't have to do the chopping and preparation when you eat refined foods.But when you go on paleo diet, you buy the fruit and you eat it. You buy the vegetables, you have to wash it and chop it and then you eat it. So it's not processed, and it's much healthier for you.Sarah: How do you feel since you started this diet?John: I feel much better actually. When we eat carbohydrates, we can feel tired. Carbohydrates are in processed foods like anything that comes from grains. Like I said, bread, cookies, cake, crackers. They have lots of carbohydrates. And when we eat them, our body has to use lots of energy to digest carbohydrates. It takes away energy which could be used for doing activities. That's why if you eat lots and lots of bread and cake, maybe you feel tired.Sarah: Oh, I see.John: If you just eat fresh vegetables and fruit, you can feel like you have lots of free energy.Sarah: Are there any foods that you miss?John: I think the food I missed the most is pizza. Pizza was my favorite food before. I used to eat pizza three times every week. Now, I rarely eat pizza. Pizza has a crust. The crust is bread, so the crust has lots of carbohydrates. Also, pizza has a lot of processed meats including pepperoni and sausage. Those meats are not very healthy for you. Also, pizza has lots of cheese on it. Cheese is another processed food. So if we cut out pizza from our diet, we can eat healthier and feel like we have more energy.Sarah: Well, that's great. Thanks for telling me about paleo.John: You're welcome.

Sarah: So John, I heard you've been trying out a new diet. Can you tell me about it?John: Yes. I've been trying the paleo diet.Sarah: What's that?John: Well, this diet is supposed to make you feel better and eat healthier. And the idea is that a lot of the problems we have with health, a lot of modern human health problems, come from the foods we eat. So the idea is that maybe we should eat a diet which is closer to what early humans ate before.Sarah: Early humans ate? Like what did they eat?John: Well, they mostly ate fruits, and berries, and nuts, and meat. They didn't eat grains because grains come from agriculture, from growing plants on purpose.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: And they didn't eat bread and cake and cookies and crackers.Sarah: It sounds like a hard diet to keep.John: It's a little difficult at first. What you have to realize is that these foods are refined foods. Refined foods are not really natural foods because humans have to do a lot of cooking processes to make these foods.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: When you want to eat natural, you should eat food just the way it comes like raw vegetables and fresh fruit and meat that isn't processed. So you can't eat hotdogs.Sarah: Okay.John: And sausage.Sarah: Okay.John: But you can have steak…Sarah: It sounds…John: And fish.Sarah: It sounds like an expensive diet.John: Well actually, it turns out that when you eat fresh vegetables and fresh fruits, it can be cheaper. Processed food, refined food, comes in lots of packaging from the store, and sometimes it can be more expensive for convenience. Modern humans eat these processed foods for convenience. You don't have to wash it. You don't have to do the chopping and preparation when you eat refined foods.But when you go on paleo diet, you buy the fruit and you eat it. You buy the vegetables, you have to wash it and chop it and then you eat it. So it's not processed, and it's much healthier for you.Sarah: How do you feel since you started this diet?John: I feel much better actually. When we eat carbohydrates, we can feel tired. Carbohydrates are in processed foods like anything that comes from grains. Like I said, bread, cookies, cake, crackers. They have lots of carbohydrates. And when we eat them, our body has to use lots of energy to digest carbohydrates. It takes away energy which could be used for doing activities. That's why if you eat lots and lots of bread and cake, maybe you feel tired.Sarah: Oh, I see.John: If you just eat fresh vegetables and fruit, you can feel like you have lots of free energy.Sarah: Are there any foods that you miss?John: I think the food I missed the most is pizza. Pizza was my favorite food before. I used to eat pizza three times every week. Now, I rarely eat pizza. Pizza has a crust. The crust is bread, so the crust has lots of carbohydrates. Also, pizza has a lot of processed meats including pepperoni and sausage. Those meats are not very healthy for you. Also, pizza has lots of cheese on it. Cheese is another processed food. So if we cut out pizza from our diet, we can eat healthier and feel like we have more energy.Sarah: Well, that's great. Thanks for telling me about paleo.John: You're welcome.

Sarah: So John, I heard you've been trying out a new diet. Can you tell me about it?John: Yes. I've been trying the paleo diet.Sarah: What's that?John: Well, this diet is supposed to make you feel better and eat healthier. And the idea is that a lot of the problems we have with health, a lot of modern human health problems, come from the foods we eat. So the idea is that maybe we should eat a diet which is closer to what early humans ate before.Sarah: Early humans ate? Like what did they eat?John: Well, they mostly ate fruits, and berries, and nuts, and meat. They didn't eat grains because grains come from agriculture, from growing plants on purpose.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: And they didn't eat bread and cake and cookies and crackers.Sarah: It sounds like a hard diet to keep.John: It's a little difficult at first. What you have to realize is that these foods are refined foods. Refined foods are not really natural foods because humans have to do a lot of cooking processes to make these foods.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: When you want to eat natural, you should eat food just the way it comes like raw vegetables and fresh fruit and meat that isn't processed. So you can't eat hotdogs.Sarah: Okay.John: And sausage.Sarah: Okay.John: But you can have steak…Sarah: It sounds…John: And fish.Sarah: It sounds like an expensive diet.John: Well actually, it turns out that when you eat fresh vegetables and fresh fruits, it can be cheaper. Processed food, refined food, comes in lots of packaging from the store, and sometimes it can be more expensive for convenience. Modern humans eat these processed foods for convenience. You don't have to wash it. You don't have to do the chopping and preparation when you eat refined foods.But when you go on paleo diet, you buy the fruit and you eat it. You buy the vegetables, you have to wash it and chop it and then you eat it. So it's not processed, and it's much healthier for you.Sarah: How do you feel since you started this diet?John: I feel much better actually. When we eat carbohydrates, we can feel tired. Carbohydrates are in processed foods like anything that comes from grains. Like I said, bread, cookies, cake, crackers. They have lots of carbohydrates. And when we eat them, our body has to use lots of energy to digest carbohydrates. It takes away energy which could be used for doing activities. That's why if you eat lots and lots of bread and cake, maybe you feel tired.Sarah: Oh, I see.John: If you just eat fresh vegetables and fruit, you can feel like you have lots of free energy.Sarah: Are there any foods that you miss?John: I think the food I missed the most is pizza. Pizza was my favorite food before. I used to eat pizza three times every week. Now, I rarely eat pizza. Pizza has a crust. The crust is bread, so the crust has lots of carbohydrates. Also, pizza has a lot of processed meats including pepperoni and sausage. Those meats are not very healthy for you. Also, pizza has lots of cheese on it. Cheese is another processed food. So if we cut out pizza from our diet, we can eat healthier and feel like we have more energy.Sarah: Well, that's great. Thanks for telling me about paleo.John: You're welcome.

John Lawson, Chief Executive Officer at Colder Ice Media, started in e-commerce in 2000 on eBay. He claims that people talked about business in Ebay chat rooms, making it  “the first social commerce platform” before there was such a term. At the time, John sold bandanas, and was pestered by constant customer questions for information on “how to fold a bandana.” So, he made a video and tracked ten thousand sales – not ten thousand dollars in sales – from that single video listing. Today's digital/social media was not the beginning of social commerce. John says, “No matter where you go, whether first world country or third world country, there is a central location that is a marketplace where people do commerce” and that no matter the channel, there is always a person on the other end. If you appeal to human instinct, people will respond. Commerce, by its very nature, requires human interaction and “social” should be much more broadly defined. John explains that there are social channels that many people do not recognize as social, e.g., Amazon Comments. John wrote a book, Kickass Social Commerce, which offers universal stories of social commerce (as opposed to social media). In one story the book, he tells how Madam C.J. Walker, an African-American entrepreneur, developed a line of hair care products, marketed them to her friends, then sold them door to door, and finally had her friends set up “product presentation” parties for a cut of the sales, a sales strategy later used by such companies as Tupperware and Avon. Walker became the first self-made female millionaire in the US. John describes this as “early social marketing.” John presented “Twenty-one Kickass Social Commerce Tactics to Sell More Today” at HubSpot's 2020 Inbound Conference, where he talked about the phases of social that make people buy and “the flywheel of contacting, engaging, getting people to take action, and then measuring that action to create better contact.” Two key concepts he covered were: Identify and define your avatar, your King Consumer . . . and profile in detail a minimum of three people who would purchase your product. Establish a need for reciprocity. DO SOMETHING for your King Consumer that creates an imbalance that makes them feel that the need to do something for you in return. In a candid and enlightening history lesson, John also discusses how race has impacted the growth and development of black entrepreneurship. Thank you, John. John can be reached through “Colder Ice” on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest – almost everywhere except on Tick-Tock. ROB: Welcome to the marketing agency leadership podcast, I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by John Lawson, Chief Executive Officer of Colder Ice Media, based in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the podcast, John. JOHN: Hey, thanks for having me, bro. ROB: Yeah. Good to have you here. If we were you know, if it weren't COVID, we might meet up in person. JOHN: Right? ROB: We have an Atlanta episode today. JOHN: Absolutely. ROB: Well, why don't you start off, John, by giving us a rundown of Colder Ice Media and what you all do exceptionally? JOHN: What I do exceptionally. I do e-commerce. Right. And I started my e-commerce business back in 2000 on eBay as a necessity. People were asking me the same question over and over, how to fold a bandana because I sold bandanas. It was annoying. So, I made a video on YouTube on how to fold a bandana. I would give everybody who asked that question that link. That bandana video went completely viral. Three hundred thousand people watched the video. Out of that, we were able to track ten thousand sales – not ten thousand dollars – but actual sales from that single video listing. That was like a cavalcade of understanding for me as people started asking me, “Hey, how do you do videos for selling stuff online?” I'm like, “Answer questions that people want.” That got me on stages. Finally I was like, “OK, if you need help with how to use social – the whole world of social – then that's what we did with Colder Ice Media. ROB: That's a very fun story. I can see why someone would put you on stage to talk about it. I think within that, at a tactical level, there's some cleverness, I think probably in your attribution –  because when you're talking about was not the easiest time to tie through who bought this thing. So how did you sort out that people were buying OR buying more of your product from that particular video? What was your tracking? JOHN: We would just look at the Google tag. Google tells you where traffic was coming from and we would see YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, and I'm like, “Dude, this is crazy.: And then, like you say, back in the day, the tools were not that deep, but they would show you the views. I would see these peaks and valleys in the number of views.  The week of Halloween, the peak would be 10X normal viewership. I had no idea that Halloween would be a great time to run specials selling bandanas. And I got that kind of information just by the volume of watchers during that Halloween week. So, it's if you take all of the parts, then you start seeing trends. You can't see a trend in a month. I know people think you can, but a real trend comes over years. When you see something happen three years, you can jump on and really take advantage of those little blips that other people are not able to see because they're just getting started. So, there's value in being there for a long haul, especially on social media. ROB: Wow. How many YouTube channels do you have in your orbit now? JOHN: Five. Yeah, I'm short. I will tell you one thing that I do – every time I get a new client, I create their own Google space – go out and create a Google account – because you need a Google account to create the YouTube. You're going to need that for writing or using their Google advertising. I will create that entire environment and isolate it for myself. What we do – we can show them the value of one-to-one versus, “Oh, by the way, here's some other tracking inside of your tracking.” I'm like, “No, we're tracking this. Put this in your cart so you can see exactly what our efforts are bringing to your business.” ROB: That makes perfect sense. You got this start in understanding on the video side, but you have this, I think, a broader intentionality around social commerce in general. How has that unfolded – your understanding from that first moment of “a video driving sales” to the broader portfolio of social platforms and tactics? JOHN: That's great . . . I like that question. What happened with me is I got really fascinated with Twitter in the beginning. I'm talking about . . . there were like one hundred thousand people on Twitter when I joined. What was fascinating for me is that I had created this business and I left the office space and I didn't have a whole lot of conversations anymore. So, I started using Twitter to just conversate with people while I was sitting at home in my home office. All of a sudden, it just started naturally moving into, “Hey, what do you do?” “Here's what I do.” “Oh, Ok.” Then I start talking about what I did. The e-commerce thing just started bringing other people in that were in the same field. That made me say, “Why or what is it about being or putting your expertise out that makes people suddenly feel like you are their expert?” You hear about this – everybody today will say, if you want to be an influencer, the first thing you do is start going to places and giving your expertise, There was no playbook when I was doing this. But I would watch this happen and it would happen organically. So, you start wondering. Social is very organic. I know people think it is some technology, but it's really not. I've traveled all over the world and no matter where you go, whether first world country or third world country, there is a central location that is a marketplace where people do commerce. In that commerce marketplace, there's always at least one coffee shop where you have social. Social and commerce go together. I tell people. Facebook was not the first social platform neither was MySpace. Actually, eBay was the first platform. Why? Back in the day, we would sit in these chat rooms while we were waiting for eBay auctions to end. A lot of people were talking about business in those chat rooms. They were a social commerce platform way before there was a term. They were doing social because social has been here since chat boards and chat rooms. AOL was Facebook, 1990. Social has been here forever. And if you grasp what I'd like to call the flywheel of contacting, engaging, getting people to take action, and then measuring that action to create better contact  . . . it goes around and around in that flywheel. And that's kind of what I talked about when we were doing the Inbound thing. It was about the phases of social that make people buy. ROB: Let's get right into that. We were talking beforehand. We were probably hoping to meet up at the Inbound conference and record this live and in person or in Atlanta. But we're not meeting up for things like that right now. But Inbound still happened. HubSpot's big Inbound conference, tens of thousands of people, maybe more – online. And your session there was “Twenty-one Kickass Social Commerce Tactics to Sell More Today.” And so I'd love you to dig in and get us into some of the meat and potatoes, maybe some particular things that you saw resonate back out into your audience on Social because you probably were paying attention to that. JOHN: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'm all about and I tell people and Ok, I get it these do feel very, "Oh I've heard that before." And that's probably the problem is that if you've heard identify your avatar, I call him the King consumer. If you can identify and get in the mind of your King Consumer, then everything that you do after that speaks to that King Consumer. Create at least one. But I say really, at minimum three people that actually purchase your product. They can be real people or they can be fake people. Let's say you don't have your product in market yet, or you think you know who's going to buy that product when you create this King consumer, what you have to do is start thinking about everything that that consumer is into. I want you to go deep into your thought patterns about, not just what they're what they want, but what do they need, what situation are they in? How do they know how many kids do they have? What job do they have?  What are they what do they listen to? What do they say? What are some of the terminology they use? And the more you find that out, the better your business is going to be. I know when I created our business and I was selling those bandanas, I bought those because I was into hip hop and everybody in my neighborhood was wearing the bandanas. I could sell that to people in my sphere. But once I started putting it out there and getting the feedback from others, I was like, whoa, wait a minute; these aren't hip hoppers that are just buying these. These are the bikers. Oh, wow, that's cool. Like I said, people do in the Halloween. Oh, Ok. Cool. And once I started asking my people, hey, how are you using that? How did you like that? You got to definitely go out there and ask. You have to ask. What you're going to learn from your ask are things you're never going to be able to come up with in your own mind. Things that you think when you think that your product and you are your customer – you're not. You're absolutely not. So back to the original question. Identifying that King consumer is one of the things you have to do. The next thing I talk about was reciprocity. If you do something for others, there becomes an imbalance in them that makes them feel like they have to do something for you. That was the whole thing about me teaching people – and I didn't tell you that is the main question actually was – how to fold a bandana like Tupac. Right. And it's so ridiculous. But remember, this is early 2000s, so or late 2000. So, the deal was in my mind, I'm like; everybody knows how to do that. But here's the deal. The people between the East Coast in the West Coast – those flyovers would watch videos and they wanted the same look and they didn't know. Once I taught them how to fold that bandana, then when they were making their choice on who to buy one from, they automatically thought about, “Hey, those guys taught me how to do it.” And just by the nature of who we are, we wanted to make the balance inside of ourselves with reciprocity. So, I'll buy it from them. They might be a dollar more, but I'll go ahead and do it. So, you really want to think about that. That's human nature. We want to get in balance. We always do. If I ask all my friends to help me move, I know, when one of them asks me to help them move, I can't say no. That's reciprocity. Right? ROB: And it's even more helpful in it's not just that they want to know this information. It's that the Internet to an extent and social have made it possible to ask questions that you're too embarrassed to ask your friends. So, you're bailing people out of feeling silly that they don't know how to fold that bandana. JOHN: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Or, they don't even know who to ask. ROB: Yeah. And that continues on out to – I think you look at the some of the beauty influencers and all these makeup tips. There are people who want to know how to do something with their makeup and they are embarrassed that they cannot. Yeah. YouTube bails us out of that. YouTube bailed me out of not knowing how to fix my toilet . . . anything. JOHN: And think of who are the biggest beauty influencers out there – a lot of them are males. That's crazy, right? But you think these guys wanted to put on makeup and a lot of their audience maybe never did. So, who are you going to ask? Your sister? There's a whole lot I got to do before I ask my sister how to put on makeup, There's a whole lot of steps I got to go through. ROB: Yeah, you're probably not going to get a straight up answer right away on that. JOHN: There's going to be some other conversation where exactly we need to have a deeper conversation. ROB: Amazing. I like how the story it started out. When did you realize that you were going to be into this world of social and commerce and Colder Ice Media for the longer run? Was that evident right away? Or was there something after the instigating moment that really cemented the business for you? JOHN: It was probably around 2012 2013. These guys were writing a column about eBay sellers and they asked me if I could do an interview as one of people who are eBay success stories. I agreed.  We get on the phone and were doing this interview and she's like, ”You're one of ten people we're going to feature blah, blah, blah.” But we stayed on the phone for 80 to 90 minutes. And I was like, “Just for a feature piece, this is kind of weird.” We were just having good conversation. At the end of that call . . . she and her husband are a team and write together . . . . . . at the end of the call, they said, “John, man, that was really good stuff. I think we're going to make a multipart feature just on your business.”  I was like, “Really? That's pretty cool.”  And then he's like, “Hey, and if you ever think about writing a book, I'd help you because we've written twenty-two books and we'd love to help you.”  I was like, “Really?” I had never thought about writing a book before because I never thought I had much to say . . . or how much you need to say. But once we put the treatment together, it became my social commerce book. First. It was about social commerce, not just social media. But the key thing was, I don't care how many people like me – I want you to buy from me. There are a lot of people out here who have social influence but couldn't get people to piss on them if they were on fire – they don't really have the ability to move people. There's a difference between having likes and having people that will buy from you. And that's the big difference to me in social media. For me, it was all about the commerce portion. ROB: And what's the name of the book folks want to go . . . JOHN: Kickass Social Commerce. ROB: Excellent. Excellent. Any additional publishings of it or is it still pretty fresh? JOHN: You know what? Here's the thing. When I wrote the book, I wrote it forever. Yeah, right. I did. I literally did because the concepts, again, of social and purchasing go together. So, I grabbed all of these universal stories. And one of my major stories, he first story I talk about is a woman called Madam C.J. Walker. Have you heard of her? ROB: I am not familiar with her. JOHN: Great. Fantastic. So, I could tell this story if you don't mind. ROB: Go. JOHN: All right. So, here's the deal. Madam C.J. Walker was an African-American, a black woman. OK, I like that better. Right? She was a black woman and she created a scalp ointment because her hair was falling out from straightening it. She created an ointment that would keep her hair healthy. And other women saw her hair from going to where she had maybe patches, bald spots, and not healthy hair to these long, luxurious locks. People asked, “What are you using?” She had created this thing in her kitchen and she ended up going from her sink and to the bathtub to create larger volumes of it to sell to her friends. Well, the business starts growing and she starts going door to door to do sales. So that's the first part, right? You go from friends telling friends to going door to door. Her door to door sales grew so much that she realized that she was limited by the number of doors she could go to in a day, and that was hampering the growth of her base simply because there's only so many doors you can knock on. So, she came up with this great idea. She said, look, I'll get one of my clients that already buys for me to have a party and I'll go to the party and display my products at the party. Sound familiar? ROB: Mmm-hmm. JOHN: She was the one that created the model that today Mary Kay and Avon use. She created that and that was, again, social. You're expanding your network by using small influencers to bring their friends in and allowing you to do that demonstration. Of course, you would give them a cut for the party. Ultimately, she built a house bigger than the White House . . . and this was in 1918. This is she is the first self-made female millionaire in America. She was ranked number six of the top 10 entrepreneurs in Entrepreneur magazine for all time, one of the greatest success stories. But I tell this story because, as I was listening and reading and researching, I realized how social media can grow for commerce because. literally, she had her own, quote “Facebook” by doing what she did with these people. So, it's universal. I wrote from that understanding . . . from that standpoint. ROB: Yeah. You can imagine a version of a book on social commerce that would get nitty-gritty – focus very much on the popular channels, marketing channels of the day, would talk about specific ad-spending tactics – and it would have a very short shelf life. But I get the sense from talking to you that you define social channels – and you did this a little bit with eBay – you define that remarkably differently from many people. So, when we think about social channels today, what are some other channels you think may not be intuitively understood as social, but yet are extremely so? JOHN: Hmm, that's a good question. ROB: Because we could talk about Tick-Tock, but we don't and we can, but we don't have to. I don't think you could write a book with a long shelf life if that was your frame of mind. JOHN: Right. Because the channels always change their rules. Yeah. But if your understanding is, no matter what their handle is, there is a person on the other end and there are certain things that we . . . we as humans are just a higher level of animals and there's certain habits that we have that we're always going to use. No matter what channel you use to get there, if you nail that human instinct, they're going to respond to it. Here's what I give you that you wouldn't think of: Amazon comments. Amazon comment, that is a social channel. There are some people that do nothing but read and post or try things and post and then they read other stuff from people. And then they respond in those posts. They do this all day long. Why are they doing that? Because that's their social world. ROB: Hmm. Have you seen some people using Slack communities in a business context, maybe? JOHN: Yes, absolutely. Because what they're doing now is they're getting people away – moreso Reddit. I mean, Reddit, its killer. Reddit is really killer. But a Slack community is a great way to get people that are interested in a specific topic away from the distraction that is social media, especially in an election year. ROB: Hmm, right. Plenty of that. JOHN: There's so much of that. And people's moods are being changed sometimes by the constant back and forth in these major social channels like Facebook or Twitter. It gets distracting. So, you get your people out from there into a nice global world that doesn't have all the noise in it. ROB: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's almost in some cases, there's too much – If you were in a room, there are some rooms where there's too much shouting to be helpful. You can't help people who are in the middle of a fight. JOHN: Right. Exactly. It's like it's really hard to get my attention when there's a train wreck right in front of us. ROB: What does that pivot point look like? What's it look like? What's an example – help us kind of think through it and catalyze our thinking – of someone who's commenting on reviews on Amazon and they're selling something and it's driving – I understand it conceptually, but it's a bit abstract. Is there a concrete example you've seen where they comment on this thing because they were selling this other thing? JOHN: Well, what ends up happening is, if you comment a lot, Amazon flags you as a commenter. Once you get that known as a trusted source, once you get that flagging, then other people that are trying to get reviews by people that have that tag or that flag will start reaching out to send you products. ROB: Got it. JOHN: Right. So, here's the deal. Once you recognize that people are gravitating to you, starting to ask you for your opinion, you've probably got something going on there. I've got a client right now that built a business – and this is so weird – around selling old music media. So, it's flipping CDs. Who buys a CD today? Why don't I get that? I didn't get that. I get it now. He's done six figures just teaching people how to look for CDs at garage sales and thrift stores. That's just amazing to me. You wouldn't think there was a community around that before this. I just never knew. So, there are a lot of niches – there are people that do nothing but needlepoint – there's a niche for darn near everything and it doesn't take a lot of people for you to reach out and find an audience that will either purchase from you or take your recommendations and purchase other things so you can become that influencer for that thing. ROB: Right. It's like the kind of the Kevin Kelly conversation, around a thousand true fans and there are lots of thousands of fans that are looking to be with him.  JOHN: Who did you say? ROB: Kevin Kelly, I think. JOHN: Who's Kevin Kelly? Wait a minute, is not the original? ROB: It might be. Where have you heard it most? JOHN: I'm just going to check this out because. Ok, says Kevin Kelly. Interesting. I'm thinking. Anyway, go ahead. Go ahead. I want to talk about it, Ok? KK.org got it. Technically. ROB: Yep. JOHN: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's funny you say that. When it first came out, I was so into that. The reason why I was into it, just to go a little bit backwards. is because I'm a huge Prince fan. When Prince left the label, he left a multi-million-dollar deal with Warner Brothers. He was like, “You know what? You can have my entire song category. I just want to be free.” And I was like, “What the hell?” Right after that, he put out his own album. This was the early 90s, He used like a chat room, basically a chat board, to sell a hundred thousand records. Now, this is a man that sold 10 million records for just his Purple Rain album and now he's selling a hundred thousand. And he said, “You know what? I made more off that hundred thousand records than I ever made off of Purple Rain. And when that thousand true fans came out, I was like, ‘Wow'.” That is the basis from where I teach. If you can get a thousand true fans, you're in. ROB: That's amazing, I didn't know that story about Prince, but even in the music world, it brings me forward even to someone like Run the Jewels. Their first album, they put it on their website for free. And they kept on doing their albums for free. And now their albums are basically for free, even if on Spotify. But they were able to cut through a lot of noise and find their fans a lot faster, but still make a living and in a way that is far beyond just selling music. JOHN: Right. Most musicians don't make their money off selling music anyway. That's why they have to tour. Yeah. They have to tour to pay for everything because, I mean, the music business is an amazing thing. I don't want to go into how they really do their business, but let's put it like this: If you sell a million records, you're probably not a millionaire. ROB: Yeah, man. Well, John, this is this is quite a knowledge drop here. I hope that when we're back to meeting in person, people will get a chance to get out and see you and meet you and hear you. When people want to find you and when they want to find Colder Ice Media, where should they go to track you down? JOHN: Just put in Colder Ice. That's all you got to do. Put it in your browser and I will show up I'm Colder Ice on every platform. I am one of those branding crazy people that did that a long time ago. And I'm Colder Ice on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest. I don't care where you go. Pretty much I own Colder Ice except for Tick-Tock. Somebody stopped me on Tick-Tock. ROB: Oh man, that's tough. Well maybe you can make a phone call at some point and get it unlocked for Colder Ice. The handle you reserve when you were early on Twitter, did you get another good Twitter handle early. JOHN: Man, you are just pulling out all the good stories. But my name is so common. John Lawson. When I first looked it up, there were like eight million John Lawsons. I had the story in my head. I remember this story that back in segregation – a lot of people don't understand this, but African-Americans are some very original entrepreneurs, not because we had the entrepreneurial spirit – but you had to be an entrepreneur if you wanted to feed your family. You couldn't I couldn't walk into the regular grocery store and buy groceries back then. You had to have a black-only grocery store. There was a black-only cab company. There was a black-only bus company, black-only hotels. All of that. Run by black people because “white people wasn't sharing.” But literally, those storefronts that were serving the black community, the day that integration became the norm, they would see their customers walk right past their storefronts to go shop downtown. They came up with the saying, “Well, I guess the white man's ice is colder.” And I always remember that: colder ice. That's the story. ROB: Wow, I didn't know that either and you're gracious in your history lessons. There's a lot of strong feelings tied up in that. I know. We're all trying to figure out different ways to actually be sorry and be better. JOHN: No, we're all getting better, man. That it's all good effects on your ear. That's the great story of America. ROB: Well, John, thank you for coming on again. I can't wait to get out and hear you share something in real life, but I appreciate you joining virtually as well. And I think our audience is better for it as well. JOHN: This was a great interview. I really had fun. ROB: Thank you. Thank you for listening. The marketing agency leadership podcast is presented by Converged. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting email info@convergehq.com or visit us on the web at Convergehq.com.

John Saunders, Founder of 5Four Digital, honed his SEO, SEM, and PPC digital marketing skills when he started his career working for an agency that provided dealership-level marketing services for automobile manufacturers. When John figured out that he wanted to use his skills for different kinds of projects and a more diverse clientele (SMBs, tech-startups), he started his own company. Today, 5Four focuses on brand identity (logo design and brand guidelines), and website design and development on Shopify, Webflow, and WordPress platforms. In this interview, John explains how to build automated linkages that will increase customer engagement and discusses 3 “shopping” platforms: WordPress, Shopify, and Webflow.  John says WordPress was a game-changer – it made CMS (content management systems) “accessible” for people with lower-level HTML and CSS skills. The platform is flexible enough that amazing sites can be built with either the supplied templates or with custom code. A disadvantage of WordPress is that it requires the use of an extensive array of plugins for website “attributes,” and these and other security measures need to be maintained. Wordpress with a WooCommerce plug-in works well for ecommerce, but John has found that Shopify allows the agency to more quickly scale stores for its clients. One Shopify app, Teelaunch, provides companies with low cost, high-quality print on demand products so customers can create an MVP (minimum viable product, Eric Ries: The Lean Startup,) and build their own brand for less than $1000. Another CMS option, Webflow, can produce outstanding websites. It has a slight learning curve but is easy to use and highly flexible. Although John currently sees Webflow as ”the future,” an organization's decision to use a particular CMS platform should be based on a number of considerations. Through the years, John has developed systems and standard operating procedures which allow him to delegate tasks to his staff or to automate processes, so the work gets done automatically. One tool he has found to be particularly helpful is Zapier, which provides a way to “web-hook” different websites, platforms, and apps. John uses Zapier to cross-integrate his company website contact form with Slack (to notify John that the form has been filled out), and then with Mailchimp to send a “thank you for your interest, here's another form.” Response to that drives another form for scheduling . . . and that information is sent to Colony. John says Zapier can be used to link Facebook to Gmail, Facebook Forms to Google Sheets, with up to 10 such linkages free. John recommends written website SOPs to facilitate task handoffs to clients if the client prefers to maintain the site. 5Four Digital was already running remotely when Covid-19 hit. John's SOPs and integrated technology continue to keep the agency operating smoothly. Many of his team use Asana to manage tasks. He notes that not everything he has done succeeded. However, the failures often provided the tools, resources, and experience he needed for subsequent projects . . . that did succeed. John recently started a company offering downloadable illustrations featuring people of color so sitebuilders have beautiful pictures that promote diversity. BlackIllustrations.com. He is also involved in digital education and sees a lot of that in the future replacing the traditional four-year degree.  John can be found on his personal website at JohnDSaunders.com and @JohnDSaunders on Facebook and Instagram. His agency's website is: https://www.5fourdigital.com/. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by John Saunders, Founder at 5Four Digital based in Miami, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, John. JOHN: Hey, Rob. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here, man. Thank you. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Why don't you start us off with an introduction to 5Four Digital and where you specialize. JOHN: Absolutely. My name, of course, as you said, is John D. Saunders. I'm the founder of 5Four Digital. We focus and allocate our resources towards a couple key services. Those are brand identity, which is logo design and brand guidelines, as well as website design and development for Shopify, Webflow, and WordPress. Those are our main focus areas. ROB: That makes perfect sense. WordPress obviously has been around for a very long time, Shopify a decent amount of time. Webflow is a little newer. How has that development of competencies happened? Did you start in one of those areas? How have you decided where to keep your skills sharp? JOHN: Great question. I started in WordPress – man, it was at least 10 years ago. WordPress put CMS, or content management systems, on the map in regards to making it accessible for people that either have an entry level to HTML and CSS or high level. You create these amazing websites either using templates or doing custom code. I started doing that with WordPress, and man, it was an exciting time because I started out and I learned everything I could from YouTube videos and other things like that. This was in the infancy of WordPress, so it was before they even had all these templates and themes. I was able to build a site for my mom, who's a teacher, and we built this tutoring site. Kids were able to go on, fill out the contact form. I was able to take this idea I had in my head and make it something tangible. That's when I was hooked. As the agency grew, we really thought to allocate our resources toward a few key resources, and WordPress was that main one. As ecommerce started to build up and develop, I thought, WordPress is great. We have WooCommerce, plug-ins that integrate well. But I feel like Shopify was the perfect platform because we were able to scale out stores for clients at a quicker level than WordPress. So, we did that with Shopify. Then a couple years ago, we heard about Webflow, which is another content management system or almost like a live builder, and man, I built my first site in Webflow and I was like, this is definitely the future. It's easy to use. Of course it has a learning curve, but ultimately you can build essentially whatever you want in regards to your website, have your own custom CSS in there, and the designs and things we've been able to create with Webflow have been really, really dope. ROB: Right on. If somebody has a WordPress website, they'll probably stick with WordPress for the time being, although any given revision to a WordPress site can certainly be an entire rebuild. But if someone's starting today, how would you help them consider the decision of whether to go with WordPress or whether to go with Webflow? JOHN: That's a great question. If they're an existing business – let's say they've been using WordPress for 5 or 6 years and they just want to do a refresh or redesign their site. They already have historical data or historical SEO attributes to that website, so I probably wouldn't recommend completely changing over to Webflow unless the site was new and they didn't get a ton of traffic. If they're doing over 10,000, 50,000, 100,000 hits per month, we'd probably stay with WordPress and scale out that website in regards to building out a new design. If the business doesn't get a ton of traffic and they're not really worried about pulling all that traffic to the new site, I would absolutely recommend Webflow. One thing I like about Webflow is a lot is the transition in regards to using the platform is easier. You can build out sites how you want. You don't necessarily need a ton of plug-ins, which is one of the issues I have with WordPress; you need plug-ins for a lot of the attributes you need to add to a website. It also takes a lot of constant upkeep. Every month you have to make sure the plug-ins are up to date. You also have to make sure WordPress, the framework, is up to date, and you're open to malware and malicious attacks from people because the CMS is so popular. The good point about that is there's a ton of resources on WordPress and information out there. Thousands of plug-ins, thousands of resources, developers, designers. It's an open source platform that has a lot of people linked to it. With Webflow, it's a little bit newer, so it's smaller. But the level to entry isn't as steep as say WordPress, and it doesn't need that constant upkeep. You can build out your site, you can set up Zapier to set up web hooks between different websites and platforms, and you're pretty much good to go. ROB: Wow, it sounds like you're deep on the Zapier stuff. That's a whole other unlock there. JOHN: Oh man, it's like a cheat code, dude. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] Tell us about that a little bit for folks who aren't as familiar with Zapier and what sort of directions you can take that toolkit. JOHN: I'll give you a precursor. The first thing is I'm a big proponent of standard operating procedures or setting up systems within the business so I can delegate to either staff, team members, or create automation. That way no one has to do it and it just gets done automatically. I'm a big proponent of that. I work from home. I have five team members on our team, and I love to have the freedom to be able to focus on big picture. With that said, Zapier is a great way to connect different platforms easily through a platform seamlessly. I'll explain that. For example, when you visit our agency website and you fill out the contact form, that form automatically pushes to Slack. As soon as the form gets filled out, I get a notification that someone's filled it out on Slack with their information. That keeps me up to date. Secondly, we set up a Zapier so that it integrates with MailChimp. So as soon as someone fills out that form, they get an automatic email response saying, “Hey, thank you for your interest. Would you mind filling out this free form?” Once they fill out that form, then they get another automatic email push that says, “Hey, great, go ahead and book a time here,” and then we've connected Colony. All Zapier does is just connects different apps to each other. You can connect Facebook to Gmail, you can connect Facebook Forms to Google Sheets – the possibilities are endless. I think you can do up to 10 for free and then you can pay for different Zaps. ROB: Very nice. Thinking about WordPress versus Webflow, you get the site designed, you get it developed, you hand it over to the client – is either one of those more conducive to clients being able to manage things themselves? Or is it just the case that clients, even if you give them all the tools, aren't going to manage things themselves to make minor changes in the future? JOHN: It really depends on the client because they're both very user-friendly, especially on the client side, for the most part. It's easy to add blogs. It's easy to update pages once either you're using a third party platform like Oxygen or Divi or Elementor, the page builders. It's pretty easy to use once you get over that initial learning curve. Both WordPress and Webflow have a client-facing side so that they can make updates. So that part is pretty easy. What I like to tell people, especially agency owners, is it's a good idea to set up SOPs, or standard operating procedures, for your clients in regards to the handoff. If you're a web design agency, there's one of two things you can do. You can either manage and host that website for the client, and then they pay a fee every month, or you say, “Hey, here's a repository of my trainings on how to use the platform, how to jump in, how to add blogs. Your team can use this.” Because sometimes you'll build a project and give it to their staff. They might have a marketing team or a content marketing team that can create that content; they just need to know how to use the backend. So, you want to have that in your back pocket so that way when a client is like, “Yeah, we don't really want you to manage it. We just want you to build it out and then hand it off to us,” you already have that repository of operating procedures that you can give them. ROB: That all makes sense. John, if we rewind a few years, how did you come to start 5Four Digital? What's the origin story here? JOHN: For me, I was at an agency. I worked there for about 4 years. I moved up in the ranks and became marketing director. It was an automotive dealership agency, so we dealt primarily with a lot of the car manufacturers – Audi, Land Rover, Ford – at the dealership level. We would do the marketing at the dealership level. Being in that position taught me a lot because I was able to use SEO, SEM, PPC, all these different services under the digital marketing moniker. It helped me develop my skillset. Once I did that, I got to the point where I wanted to work on different types of projects. I got kind of burnt out from the automotive side. I wanted to work with maybe SMBs, tech startups, and that type of thing. That's when I left and I started my own company, 5Four Digital. I was focused on more so on the product as opposed to how it looked. I didn't need to have a fancy office or anything. Honestly, when I started, I didn't really have much money. I was on the ramen diet, and I was saving money because I had segued from a full-time position to doing this on my own. The biggest thing for me was to really focus and allocate my resources towards providing a great product to the client. I didn't have an office. I was working from home, and I started to build my team remotely. When other agency owners were like, “You need an office, you need this, you need that,” I was like, instead of paying $2,500, $3,000, $3,500 – because I am in South Florida – for an office, I can take those resources and I can pay a developer, I can pay a project manager to help scale this business without having to have that burden of a physical location. ROB: So, you were completely ready for the shutdowns this year. Did very much change for you as a business, either with how your team worked, or maybe with some of your clients when some of the COVID-19 shutdowns started to come through? JOHN: I do want to say that a lot of people are going through a lot currently. People are being furloughed, fired from their jobs. It's just a lot. The transition for us prior to COVID and to now hasn't really changed much because we were already running remotely. All the platforms and things that we were using were already conducive to that environment. A lot of our team and our staff work through Asana, our task management system, and that's what we work by. This is when something's due, and team members can work at night, in the day, they can take the day off and take their kids to the park. For me, ultimately you work when you're comfortable because I feel like that's when people work the best, and then we follow the structure of the due date within the task management system. ROB: That makes sense. When I look at your LinkedIn profile, some people are all-in on one thing and some people have a whole portfolio of interesting things they're involved in. What can you share about some of the other projects or businesses that you're involved in that keep your attention and you feel are worth pursuing? JOHN: For me it's about building an agency that not only works well for our clients, but for us internally also. I always recommend those that have the skillset to build an agency because (1) you can help build and develop clients, and then (2) you can build your own products or your own projects that siphon through your agency ecosystem. For us, when we have an idea and we want to build something internally, we're just taking that project or that idea and running it through our client cycle. For example, I have a business called BlackIllustrations.com, which we launched in April, which is a platform that allows folks to download illustrations for their websites, for their projects, featuring people of color. Because I didn't see the market have a lot of that, and as a website builder, there just wasn't a lot of diversity in the illustrations. Now, I've seen some beautiful illustrations, and we've leveraged a lot of them online, but I just didn't see that and I saw that opportunity. When that happened, I put together the process, I told the team, “Hey, this is what we're going to start building out,” and then it's essentially just walking them through that client lifecycle. It's almost like taking the ideas that we have and pushing them through this conveyor belt of the business and then being able to make another business that has its own separate income as an entity. BlackIllustrations.com launched in April; we've already had 40,000+ downloads, over about half a million visitors to the website. I'm really proud of that, and a lot of that comes down to creating those procedures and then running it through that cycle. ROB: That makes a ton of sense. With those different projects, you can imagine that some of them are going to thrive, some of them are going to perhaps not thrive. Some of them over time you might need to put to rest. I wonder maybe if even there's some projects that you have brought through the process, they lived a good life, and then you put them on pause. How do you think about the lifecycle and lifespan of these internal projects? JOHN: Essentially, for me it's really about learning as much as I can from the process. In one example, as an entrepreneur, you know we have a ton of failures. I'm not going to act like everything I touch turns to gold. I had one project in particular – it was a Kickstarter campaign. I was trying to raise funds for an app. This was 5 years ago, 6 years ago maybe. I went through the entire process of hiring a videographer, getting footage, walking through the process of creating this crowdfunding campaign, and it was a lot of fun doing it and experiencing it. Ultimately, we flopped because we didn't get to 100% of the goal. I think we got to around 60%. At first, I was like, man, I'm a failure. I didn't do the right thing. But, ultimately, I learned a lot through that process. I learned how to start a crowdfunding campaign, how to create engaging video that converts folks, and how to leverage an audience. So, I like to look at it as an experience as opposed to a failure, and I'm able to use those resources and those things that I came up with and allocate them later on in the next project. ROB: Each project is its own success, even if the project itself doesn't succeed. In that case, how fortunate to assess demand for an app. It's an inexpensive experiment to launch a crowdfunding campaign versus building the dang app and then hoping somebody likes it. JOHN: Exactly. ROB: Very good. John, you mentioned some lessons you learned there. When you look back over the history of 5Four Digital so far, what are some other lessons you've learned along the way and things you might consider doing differently if you were starting from zero? JOHN: I would look at delegating faster than I did prior. I think in the beginning, especially the first year, first couple years, I was trying to do everything and do it all myself. When I started the agency, we were doing SEO, SEM, Facebook ads, social media, web design, web development. It was a complete agency, full service. Which is great, especially if you have a good amount of employees, but it was just me. So I'm working with clients and one client is doing SEO, one client is doing PPC, one client is doing web design, and it's just a lot of work, especially changing your mind and doing the different things and turning off that creative and turning on the analytical side. It was just a lot. I started to get burnt out. One of the things I wish I did was niche down to a specific set of services. Not even niching down to a specific client set, but only offering a few core services. That would've helped me really streamline my process and be like, “This is the process we go through every time we take on a client” as opposed to doing all these different services myself, especially as a small agency or even a freelancer. It was just a lot. So, I wish that was one thing that I did: focus on a few core services. Secondly, I wish I would've started to make my operating procedures in the initial or in the beginning. Really start to think about, “These are the core services we have. These are the things we want to offer.” But I think it just took me time to get acclimated to providing a high-quality service to clients and then documenting that process. Then the third piece is hiring faster, hiring either a part-timer or an independent contractor in the beginning to help facilitate some of these things instead of trying to do it all myself and taking hours and hours in the wee morning trying to do it. ROB: How did you go about finding some of those fractional or independent contractors that you could trust to do the work in a way that's going to keep your clients happy? Did that involve the clients at all in the conversation of shifting who was doing the work? JOHN: Great question. For me, finding great people – and again, this is a process as well – comes down to not even necessarily their full skillset. A lot of times you'll try to find the perfect candidate in regards to their skills. I try to find a good quality designer, for example, but I also want them to be able to fit into our team dynamic. The fact that they're fun, engaging. The fact that they get their work done, but they're able to balance that and know that it's an open work environment where they'll be able to have fun and enjoy cultivating their creativity. So, for me, it's really finding someone that's a good fit for the team as opposed to just focusing on skillset. ROB: I hear a recurring passion for process. Is that something that has come naturally for you, but you didn't initially apply it to the business? Or has it been something you've discovered in some way as you've built the agency? JOHN: It's definitely something I've discovered while building the agency. There's a book by Michael E. Gerber called The E-Myth, another book by Tim Ferriss called The 4-Hour Workweek – those are two great reads – that talk about building a process so that you can delegate. For me, ultimately, in the agency right now I'm pretty much the project manager. I'm the one that talks to the client, that organizes the projects, that puts in my two cents and my recommendations and helps the team navigate through the buyer journey or the customer journey. I love being in that role because I'm able to pull out of the day to day and focus more so on big picture. I'm able to convey my ideas to the team, and we're able to implement together on what works best.  ROB: I can definitely understand that, and there's probably some future date where you're thinking about that second project manager role that takes that over. That's probably a whole new round of hire. John, you mentioned in your previous agency experience that you had done some work with auto dealers. For people who don't know, that can be a whole segment. A lot of agencies that do auto kind of only do auto. It sounds like you're not doing much of that anymore. One concern I have heard from people who are heavy into that space is some different constraints to the budgets of some of the different dealerships and what they want, and sometimes even the technology. What is your experience with that then, and was there any consideration of that when you decided not to focus on that as much with 5Four? JOHN: Can you repeat the last part of the question? It cut out for a sec. ROB: Oh, sure. How much of that distinction of the constraints of automotive clients drove your decision to focus less on that when you started 5Four? JOHN: Oh man, there's a lot of red tape you have to deal with. Just getting a webpage up or going through a brand discovery session, there's so many people that it has to go through that by the time you get the thing live, it's already dated. [laughs] It was really hard to move and grow the design and the marketing side of it because we had so many constraints in regards to the industry. But nowadays, especially working more so with startups or Series A companies, they have a lot more freedom to move around and upward. If there's new technology that comes out that we want to implement, you don't have to go through three C-level executives to get it done. You can just talk to a couple people, tell them, “Hey, this is how it works,” do a small test – if it works, great. Scale it up. It's a totally different dynamic. ROB: I've also heard a number of complaints about the technology that is even able to serve the auto dealer industry. Is that true, number one? And if so, why do you think it is? I've heard often there's a completely different marketing stack for that particular customer. JOHN: I will say in the last probably 2 to 3 years, there's been a lot of companies doing cutting-edge stuff in the automotive industry. Of course, outside of that you have Tesla, which is doing phenomenal things. But there are platforms, especially like for example Dealer.com, which is an automotive digital marketing company – they crush it, man. They do a lot of these different things – it's almost like Google, but in the automotive industry. They have all these different solutions and resources. So, I will say in the last few years there's been a dynamic shift.  Of course, you have startups coming out like Carvana that are doing a really great job of showcasing and making the process easier for the customer. I think the automotive industry has taken a while to understand it, but a lot of people don't necessarily want to go into the dealership. They don't want to go through that long process. They're trying to accommodate this fast shifting economy. ROB: I understand that. It's nice that there is some future that is not really, really dated marketing stacks for that industry. John, when you look ahead a little bit, what are you excited about that's coming up either for 5Four Digital in particular or for marketing more generally? JOHN: Man, I'm a tech guy, so I love being a part of this process and being in this industry. Some of the biggest things I see coming down the pipeline are one-click or headless ecommerce. A lot of folks have been talking about it. It's an ecommerce experience where you literally push one button and you're able to purchase, similar to what Amazon has and a lot of these sites that are coming out, but it actually works across the entire internet. That's something I've been hearing a lot of buzz about. In regards to the education side of digital, I'm really excited about it. As we move or shift into this new world dynamic, a lot of people are realizing that traditional college degrees might not necessarily be the best bet for us all. There are just so many options. I have my Bachelor's, but there's just so many different opportunities now. You have all of these educators, people like myself and yourself, who are great and skilled and adept that can create courses and teach other people our processes and the things we're doing. So, I'm really excited for the digital education frontier, I guess we could call it. But I think a lot of people are going to start segueing or moving towards that because it's super affordable. You can buy $500, $1,000, $50 bucks for these courses and learn these tangible skills that can pay you well into the six figures. So, I'm ultimately excited for that. ROB: Do you have some of your current projects or future projects in that online education space? JOHN: Yeah, we have a few resources. My biggest thing is providing value, value, value, value up front so that way you can position yourself as a thought leader, you can gain the trust of the people, they actually take your advice and leverage it and use it, and then creating more high-level, detailed courses for those people that are really trying to dive in heavily. We have a couple courses. We have a Web Design Studio Accelerator, which is for people that want to start their own web design accelerator, and then I have other job templates and SOP courses that people can leverage to learn and apply these skills. ROB: Solid. The SOP courses seem like something you can even also show to your team for training. JOHN: Oh yeah, that's what we do. We probably have 100+ videos for our team. We have one business – it's called IllustratorHub.com; the whole business runs on an SOP. I don't do anything with the business. It's automatically updated. Our team manages it, and it's just a great platform and a great example of creating these operating procedures in your business so that way you can thrive. ROB: Wow, that's excellent. Looping back to one thing you mentioned earlier – and I think I let it go a little bit too quickly; you mentioned beyond Webflow and WordPress – we dug into those differences there – but you also mentioned that you do work on the Shopify platform. If you look at their stock, they're not quite Zoom, but they're pretty close. This seems to have been a fairly banner year for that approachable “get an ecommerce store online” platform. What have you seen in terms of either how clients are investing differently in Shopify now or people who are putting stores online that hadn't quite gotten around to it yet? JOHN: I'm glad you brought up the Shopify stock, man, because it makes me feel like I'm Warren Buffett out here. [laughs] I bought 20 shares when it was like $60 bucks because I believed in the company and I saw what they were doing. With Shopify, I think, like you said, this year is their year. So many people are home. They want to start a business. They want something that's easy, that they can leverage, that they can create a high quality product. And that's what Shopify does. You look at some of the top stores, you have Kylie Jenner's Cosmetics, you have Allbirds, I think Warby Parker at one point was on Shopify. You have all these major brands running through this platform. It just goes to show you that it's made for commerce. People that are starting out like, “I want to sell some t-shirts” can open up a Shopify store, they can integrate it with Teelaunch, and then they can have these high-quality print on demand products with their own logo, their own brand on it. It's really low cost out of the gate. You can test and you can create this MVP, or minimum viable product, as Eric Ries would say, the writer of The Lean Startup, and ultimately you can really build your own brand for less than $1,000 bucks. ROB: Is Teelaunch a Shopify plug-in, or how does it work? JOHN: Yes, it's a Shopify app. They have hundreds of products – teacups, t-shirts. They even have air fresheners. It's ridiculous. [laughs] ROB: CafePress used to sort of let you do this, but you were listing stuff on their site. This is your own brand store. You can have your custom underpants, whatever you want. JOHN: Exactly. And they fulfill on your behalf, so if someone goes on your website and your shirt is $24.99, they go and buy that shirt – the app is integrated, so as soon as they make that purchase, it pushes to Teelaunch, they charge you the $12, $10 for the shirt and then the shipping, and then you take the rest for your profit. Then they ship it on your behalf to the customer, so you don't even have to touch the inventory. ROB: Very, very cool. John, when people want to find you and when they want to find 5Four Digital, where should they go to look you up? JOHN: They can find me at JohnDSaunders.co. That's where all of my resources and guides are. Also, I'm on Facebook and Instagram @JohnDSaunders, and that's pretty much where I'm at. ROB: Excellent. What's the “D” for in John D. Saunders? JOHN: David. ROB: Excellent. Perfect. JOHN: I have that because there's a famous ESPN newscaster who passed away a few years ago and his name is John Saunders. So, I had to put that “D” in there to add a little difference. ROB: Yep, I know that name. I remember that sportscaster. John D. Saunders of 5Four Digital, thank you for coming on the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast.  JOHN: Rob, thank you for having me, man. I'm happy to be here. ROB: Thank you much. Be well. Bye. JOHN: You too. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

In this episode of Small Business Snippets, I chat to John Tusa, author, journalist and one of the founding presenters of BBC’s Newsnight.  He shares his experiences of the boardroom and how risk analysis and cumbersome objectives can overshadow your organisation's core purpose.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on leadership and creativity in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Here's the transcript of John Tusa's podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have John Tusa, author, journalist and one of the founding presenters of BBC’s Newsnight. He’s served on several boards including The British Museum, the Clore Leadership Programme and, since 2014, the European Union Youth Orchestra. On top of that, John was the managing director of the BBC World Service and London’s Barbican Centre. Today we’re going to be talking about the secrets of the boardroom, as outlined in his latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom. Anna: Hi John. John: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you doing? John: Pretty well, thank you. Looking forward to this, looking forward to talking to you. Great. So as mentioned in the intro, I’m going to start with your latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom. In the book, you talk about the importance of having a plurality of expertise, but at the same time make clear that artistic institutions and not-for-profits are very different from businesses. Are there any transferrable lessons from these types of boardroom to the business boardroom?   John: Well actually, my guru around governance, who was a major American businessman called Kenneth Dayton from Minneapolis, and he said that there is no difference between arts boards and cultural boards and corporate boards and, if anything, my British contacts said that cultural boards are much more complicated than business boards because they have so many different layers of accountability. There aren’t two worlds, there’s only one world and that is governance and the relationship between the supervisory board and the executive board. And, if anything, arts and culture boards are more complicated than the others. That’s not me saying it; that’s businesspeople saying it.   Ahh, that is interesting. I understand that, at times, the CEO of a company can also be the chairman [of the company board], but they can be very different roles. How do they differ, exactly? John: The CEO, managing director – call them what you want – are responsible for management, for actually running the place. And they are also responsible for devising the strategic direction of the organisation. The supervisory board are there to advise, help, encourage, monitor, warn and, if necessary, get rid of the chief executive. Again, my great American guru, Kenneth Dayton, said that governance is governance, that is, you look after the overall organisation, and management is management – and you mustn’t confuse them. And that is why anyone who thinks they can be a chairman and managing director, is riding readily, and speedily, for trouble. They’re separate functions. Somebody defined the role between the chairman and the chief executive as partnership, but separation. That is close partnership until the time that you have to sack them. That is an absolutely essential relationship – and a tension – but a constructive tension, at the heart of the governance management business. Right – so this is typically one of the most turbulent relationships you’d find in the boardroom? John: They can be. But on the other hand, I had at least two, maybe three, very good relationships with either the chairman when I was chief executive or the chief executive when I was chairman. And when you get it right, it is extremely productive, it’s very enjoyable and it’s very good for the organisation concerned. Let’s be quite clear – any organisation which has a bad relationship between the chair and the chief executive is in real trouble – and I saw several of those. You can’t take too much trouble over getting that relationship right and making sure the relationship is right. One of the key things about it is absolute openness and transparency. I said to my chief executive at the University of the Arts London, ‘You will always hear it from me first. You will never hear rumours and you will never hear gossip. If there’s anything to deal with, you and I will deal with it first – alone and properly.’ If you do it that way, you have trust, you have openness, you have transparency – and you can have a terrific and successful relationship. For a business owner or director who is fairly new, who isn’t used to the boardroom environment, perhaps is intimidated by it, what advice do you have for them in terms of survival? John: It shouldn’t be survival, in the sense that it is a key part of the relationship. If you are whatever size of enterprise and you have a supervisory board, the assumption is that it is a constructive partnership. But, as I mentioned before, the supervisory board mustn’t interfere in management. And also, a chief executive must make sure that the supervisory board doesn’t interfere in governance. It may be necessary sometimes to say ‘look, this is an executive decision’ or ‘this is part of management’ but it ought not to be a relationship of fear and, in any case, the chief executive should always have some idea of who the chair will be bringing on to the supervisory board. The really important thing is that the chair has to make sure that members of the trustee board are there to provide their individual skills, yes, but also to give good overall advice, but not to interfere. On that basis, it should be positive, harmonious, constructive and lead to the success of the organisation. How about managing tensions that come up between member of the board – what’s the best way to go about resolving those? John: It all depends what they are, but if there are tensions between individual members, you might have to decide that one of them is in due course invited to step down. Or it’s very important for the chair to make it clear if a member is overstepping their mark, being too intrusive, taking up too much time or being too unnecessarily dominant. The chair is responsible for the way the board works and they have to make it clear. I had one case at the University of the Arts London where I was chairman of the court of governors and one of the members of the court was the trade union representative and he refused to understand that he was there to look after the interests of the university as a whole and not just the trade union members. He would stand up and he would harangue the court as if we were a trade union meeting. I put up with this for two meetings and then I had a huge row with him and told him that this was not an acceptable way of behaving. It was a big public row, I didn’t enjoy it and in a way I regretted it but it made it clear to him and to everybody that that was not how the court was going to run and it worked very much better afterwards.    Anna: In the book you talk about managing egos. I suppose it’s just a case of reading the situation and on balance knowing how to deal with different types of personality in the boardroom. John: Yes, in general and overwhelmingly, the people I sat on boards with, who are people with real authority and substance and responsibility in the areas they came from, overwhelmingly understood that they were there to support the organisation. You are holding in trust for others. It’s not something where you play individual games with it. And overwhelmingly, the people I sat on boards with understood that very well and left their egos at the door. Absolutely. In the past I knew you’ve spoken about having ‘the wrong ambition’. Tell me a little more about what you mean by that and how it can affect your standing as a leader. John: I think that sometimes in life, and this is nothing to do directly with governance, that you may misjudge what your abilities are or what you might be doing. If you want this example, the worst one was when I decided to accept the offer to be head of a Cambridge college and I did that for all the wrong reasons. I did that because it seemed a posh thing to do, which it was. It seemed a good address, which it was. It was absolutely the wrong job for me. I shouldn’t have touched it and I lasted around six or seven months. There’s a sense of what can I do, what can I do well and when am I being prodded by a false ambition and false vanity? That’s an important part of self-preservation. There may also be some times when you shouldn’t accept a chairmanship. For a very short time, I had the post of chairman of the Victoria and Albert Museum and chairman of the University of the Arts London. That was, in retrospect, very unwise. Fortunately, the people at the University of the Arts London thought, ‘well, if he’s going to be chairman of the V&A as well, it’s obvious that that will be his first priority’ and at a very early stage said, ‘look, we’re worried about this, and we don’t think it will work. Would you like to think about it?’ And when I thought about it, I realised that they were absolutely right. It won’t work and once again, I’ve gone into that for the wrong kind of ambition. There will be a clash, and because I’d said yes to the University of the Arts London first, I stood down from the chair of the V&A. So that was the wrong kind of ambition and thank goodness, I was saved from getting into, what could have been, a very confused situation. Talking more about the board as a whole, in terms of chaos and crises, there’s possibly no bigger than what we’ve been experiencing over the past months. How do you manage difficulties in the boardroom when you’re going through something like a global pandemic?       John: With difficulty, and I think I’d try to go back to the basic principles of management and governance. Say, if I were chair of some organisation, I would expect the board of management to come up with a strategy – six months, one year, eighteen months, two years – first a strategy for survival, then a strategy for development then a longer term strategy. That would be put to the supervisory board, we would look at what the financial implications were, decide whether it was doable or not doable and then there would be a process of the supervisory board reviewing what management suggested, sometimes suggesting less, sometimes suggesting more, sometimes suggesting that they should be more ambitious in these times. You can’t, for example, because there’s a pandemic, just say ‘we’ll stop doing anything’ because actually, the implications are too great. So the times are tough but the way that people behave in them makes it even more important that they behave as a good board and executive together should behave. The behaviour shouldn’t change.    I’d like to go a little bit off-piste here. You’ve said that the BBC increasingly exercises ‘business dogma over creative values.’ What do you mean by that and how do you maintain creative values in a growing business? John: I come back without apology to ‘why are we here? Why are you here? Why is the organisation here? Why is the new organisation starting up?’ Because somebody wants to do something.   Business tools are just that: they’re a set of tools. If you are observing them and that’s all you’re doing, I don’t think that you’ll ever succeed. There are toolkits to help you succeed. What worries me about the BBC is to, too often, they go into forms of business behaviour which lose sight of the nature and the purposes of broadcasting and programmes and the needs of the audience. I’ll give you one example which I think may help. That is the whole business of risk analysis. Everyone says you need risk analysis and you’ve got to be very serious, you’ve got to know what’s coming over the hill. On one occasion we were looking at risk analysis for the university at the University of the Arts London. By the time the centre had listed its risks, every one of the six colleges had listed their risks and different faculties had listed their risks, it was about six or seven pages and, as I recall, about 130 risks. It’s ludicrous. And it was the chair of the audit committee, who’s an accountant, who said ‘I can’t deal with this, nobody can deal with this’. He said ‘let’s have eight, ten, a dozen, maybe – a dozen main strategic risks. He said let’s get rid of the rest. This becomes a separate activity in its own right, dreaming up risks. It’s ludicrous. And he also said, ‘if you’re going to have a risk register, why not have an opportunity register?’ He said that risk and opportunity are different sides of the same coin. Anna: Yeah, I understand. And I think it’s a good exercise for business owners to have this opportunity register. John: Can I also say about objectives? A good colleague of mine, actually he was the chair of the British Museum and he used to run Unilever. On one occasion, he was at the gathering of chairs of the major cultural institutions, had a meeting organised by the department of culture, media and sport. They were discussing – the chairs and the department, ministers and so on, the whole business of objectives. This man who used to chair Unilever said, ‘ you know, in my years of chairing Unilever, we would set about seven or eight objectives, and if I got most of the people, most of the time, to work to half a dozen of them, I thought we were doing very well.’ And he noticed that the secretary of state looked a little pale. Afterwards a senior civil servant came up to him and said, ‘you know when you said you could work to eight objectives and if six were observed, you were doing very well? He said that we in the department set 48 objectives this morning.’ That again is an example of a management tool becoming something completely useless. And by the by, the man who invented objectives said, ‘if an objective isn’t being met, you may have the wrong one. Ditch it, think of another one.’ That’s not a great use of your resources. I guess my final question is what advice do you have about setting objectives in the boardroom? John: I’ve always had a, what some would regard as an over-light view of objectives. I was managing director of the Barbican Centre for 12 years. In general, I say this without false modesty, it was a much better organisation at the end of 12 years than it was at the beginning. It wasn’t just me, of course, that was my team. And from time to time, people would say to me ‘did the corporation of London set you strict objectives, what you had to do? And I said no, they never said anything, but I knew that I worked to four objectives: 1) run a good arts centre 2) run it within the financial limits that you have 3) bring credit to the corporation of London so that everyone can say ‘isn’t the corporation of London wonderful? They fund the Barbican and 4) don’t insult the Lord Mayor. In 12 years, we didn’t need any other objectives. I would say strip yourself of these things and say,‘are they helping me do the things that I want to do, what the organisation needs done or are they a substitute for making sure the organisation works properly?’ And if you can shed all that and keep things clear, then the governance will work better and the management will certainly work better. What about critics that would say that you need SMART goals that are measurable and based on precise numbers? John: The answer to that is measures measure what measures measure. Measures hardly ever get to the heart of what an organisation is about. You look at the finances the whole time, of course you do. In the case of the BBC World Service, you looked at the audiences. You’re aware of numbers, you use them, but you don’t say that such and such a number is a success, and if we don’t it must be a failure. It’s much more complicated than that. They may be a guide, but they are not the most important thing which determines the success or failure of an organisation. Anna: Absolutely. I think in business today we do have a way of getting caught up in it and it causes a lot of tension and anxiety. Where, as you say, remembering what you’re doing, what people need and what keeps it going should be at the heart of it. Well, that seems like an ideal place to finish. Thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast, John. John: Thank you very much, Anna. Nice to talk to you. John’s latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom, has been published by Bloomsbury and is available now from Amazon and all other major book retailers. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on leadership and creativity in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening. 

Billion dollar companies rely on competitive intelligence to stay ahead in their markets. What lessons can the rest of us take from how they use CI to make better decisions? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Cipher Systems VP of Marketing John Booth talks about what competitive intelligence is, and how companies can use it to inform decision making. Cipher's customers are some of the largest companies in the world, and they have highly specialized units dedicated exclusively to competitive intelligence. Not every company has the budget, or the team, to support that, so John explains what the rest of us should be looking at, and how we should use information about our competitors to develop marketing and business strategies. Highlights from my conversation with John include: Many marketers use the terms data, information and intelligence interchangeably, but they are very different things. Intelligence is the product of analyzing information and data, and it requires people to do it. There's also a lot of confusion around the difference between business intelligence, market intelligence and competitive intelligence. BI is the information you have within your own business, whereas MI is the information about what is happening in the market.  Competitive intelligence is information about your markets and also your competitors and how that influences your ability to sell within your markets or deliver the services that your business does. There are three kinds of software tools used in competitive intelligence: 1) Generic tools like Sharepoint or Google Alerts that can be used or many things: 2) Specific tools like Klue that are built to fulfill a very particular need, such as sales enablement; and 3) Purpose-built tools like Cipher's Knowledge360, which are built specifically for competitive intelligence professionals. Before any business engages in competitive intelligence, it should start by developing a deep understanding of its differentiators, strengths and weaknesses. Resources from this episode: Connect with John on LinkedIn Visit the Cipher Systems website Listen to the podcast to learn more about competitive intelligence and how businesses both large and small can use it to get an edge.   Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth and I'm your host. This week, my guest is none other than my husband John Booth. Welcome John. John Booth (Guest): Well, I mean, it only took 150 some odd episodes for me to get an invitation. Kathleen: Saving the best for last. So I don't know if my listeners know this, but John and I, so John and I used to own a marketing agency together for 11 years and somehow miraculously, we're still married. And when people ask me what he does now, I always say he does the same thing I do just at a different company. He is also a vice president of marketing. He is VP of marketing for a company called Cipher Systems, which is in the competitive intelligence space. So John, for those who may not know you, who may not know Cipher, can you just tell my audience a little bit about yourself as well as about Cipher systems and what it does? About John Booth and Cipher Systems John: Sure. So as Kathleen said, I was a part of our digital agency for about a dozen years or so. And before that I held different sales positions started out in the staffing world and then held lots of different positions there. But since Quintain, I have joined Cipher systems and Cipher is a small, there's probably about 20 of us now, competitive intelligence firm. John: And we'll give to the definition of that because it's, I think it's very important. I see a lot of similarities in the competitive intelligence to what I saw in the content inbound marketing world maybe 10 years ago. So it's it's a, it's a developing industry and I think more and more people within the organizations, particularly certainly larger organizations are finding the need for, and using competitive intelligence today. But so we have a classic kind of services side of the business. And, and then in addition to that, we have a technology or a software side of the business where we have a software platform. It's a cloud based competitive intelligence platform that acts as a knowledge management system, as well as the competitive intelligence tools for all of your competitive Intel and dashboards and reports and newsletters and, and information like that. Kathleen: And what kinds of companies does Cipher work with? John: So Cipher works with large organizations. So our ideal buyer has more than a billion dollars in revenue. Typically at least 5,000 employees, they're headquartered in the United States and they operate in industries that have one or one of two key kind of characteristics. The first is they're either highly regulated. So think financial services, insurance, healthcare, or the industries are incredibly competitive. So think about things like technology government contractors those types of industries. So those are, those are kind of the, the ingredients that make for the need for competitive intelligence. Kathleen: So side note, I just think it's really funny this doing this interview because I am interviewing you like I don't know the answers to these questions already. But everyone listening doesn't so I still need to ask them. So one of the reasons I wanted you to talk about who you work for or with the kinds of companies you work for is that, it's the thing that I have found interesting, kind of watching as you've worked there is that prior to you working at Cipher, you know, I was familiar with the field of competitive intelligence, you know, roughly but there are such different levels of it, right? I mean, the stuff that you guys do, like you were saying, it's really big companies that have, you know, the stakes are high. They have a lot to lose. It's highly competitive or regulated or this or that. It's serious business. And they have teams of people whose jobs are just to do competitive intelligence. And then you have like the kind of competitive intelligence that, that smaller companies do where you're like, I've got a Google alert on my competitor, you know, that sort of thing. And so it's, it's very interesting to me the different shades of it. So segwaying from that, you mentioned defining competitive intelligence. So like how do you guys see it? What is it, how do you define it? What is competitive intelligence? John: So so there are a couple of key definitions, just so the audience and, and the two of us are on kind of the same page here. So the first one is the difference between let's define data, information and intelligence. So an example of data might be the number three. Okay. So that is data. Alright. Information is a series of data pieces. So an example, a pretty example of information is a streetlight. So a streetlight has three different colored lights, right? Red, yellow, and green. All right. And so when red is on, I stop when yellow is, I slowed down or hit the gas. And when green is, I continue on my way. So that is, so that is information. So there's several different data points there. There's the number of lights, what the, the, the meaning of those lights. Intelligence is the product of analysis. So intelligence requires people today. So so you might hear a lot of the impact of artificial intelligence on competitive intelligence and market intelligence and things like that. So today, intelligence requires a human being to perform some type of analysis and deliver some types of insights to the business that's intelligence. And that is that's what has value. So just simply gathering information, there's no value that's delivered to the organization. It's not until a person actually applies the filters and understandings and kind of teases out what this might mean that there is any value delivered, and that is intelligence. So then I'm going to define three other terms that are often kind of used interchangeably. And they shouldn't be much like a, when we had our agency often found that people would use marketing, advertising and PR interchangeably, when, as marketers, we all know that those are completely different you know, services and they mean different things, but to the lay person, they kind of get interchanged interchangeably. So competitive intelligence market intelligence and business intelligence are often interchanged kind of the same way. So let's use business intelligence. So business intelligence, we define that as the, the information that the business intelligence is based off of information on your business. So if you think about if all of the information that we have within our four walls of our business, that is our business intelligence. Okay. So if you manufacture something that might be how many widgets that you can manufacture in an hour and how many people you need and the profitability of those widgets, et cetera. So business intelligence really means focused on your business, right? No external sources or information, it's all internal data. Market intelligence is just that it is the market. It might be trends in the market. It, it might be consumer behavior and how consumers are responding to certain trends or, or things along those lines. And then competitive intelligence is information about your markets and also your competitors and how that influences your ability to sell within your markets or deliver the services that your business does. Kathleen: So earlier you mentioned that competitive intelligence requires people, but you guys sell competitive intelligence software. So like, how does that work? John: Because software, obviously it doesn't have people in it, but so think of it as think of it as this. What's a good analogy? So if I am a marketer and I have a tool like HubSpot, which we love, because it allows me to host my website, allows me to post and schedule my social. It allows me to have my content and edit it and do keyword work. All of that helps me with my marketing strategy and deliver a strategy. So you wouldn't buy HubSpot and say, Oh, well, HubSpot is going to do my marketing strategy. It's, you know, it's going to, you know, help me be a better marketer. Yes. But it still requires people to deliver that strategy. You know, you you're using a tool. Yes. but the tools can never, they, there are at least the tools today can not replace what an analyst, a researcher, a strategist, a person, a marketer, could be a product marketer. You know, what a person does. What kinds of tools are available to support competitive intelligence? Kathleen: And I feel like there's this vast array of tools out there for competitive intelligence. Like I mentioned earlier, it's everything from a simple Google or all the way up to a platform like you guys have that is used by huge corporations. So maybe you could speak to like, kind of what that landscape looks like. John: Right. So one of the one of the things that we're trying to educate people that are looking for tools are the different types of tools. We believe there are three different kinds of tools out there. There are what we call generic tools, and those are tools that are typically they've been built for a different purpose, but they're often adopted or adapted to a competitive intelligence use. And a good example of that is SharePoint. So SharePoint wasn't built for competitive intelligence, but SharePoint is, it can be an adequate kind of knowledge management source. It can, you know, you can have teams adding information to it and downloading information. You could even, you know, use some of the collaborative features there, et cetera. And so that's like the use of a generic tool. And then you have your your second type of CI tools, a tool that is built for a specific really for a specific person purpose. And, and an example of that is, so there's a company, one of our competitors, Klue. And they do a very good job of sales enablement. So if you have a large sales team and you want to empower your sales team to close more deals, and you want to give your sales team the resources that they need to have the right information at their fingertips, when they're on calls and and kind of, and, and sell against other competitors, they're a great tool for that. And then you have the third category, which is kind of that the tool that is built specifically for competitive intelligence and, and those are tools that do primarily three things. They gather information. So they're going to allow you to aggregate information and that information could come in from newsfeeds. It might come in from subscriptions to information, the research that you have it, it might be internal documents that you have kind of those business intelligence documents that we talked about. It might be information that your sales or marketing team uncovers maybe during the course of their day. So one of the things that, that we help companies with is most companies have just, just dozens, if not hundreds of nuggets of information within the organization, but they just don't have the ability to give it visibility. So, you know, it's, you know, the salesperson that knows what he's up against for a particular deal, because the prospect shared this with them and it's sitting within his inbox and he's the only person that has access to his inbox. So the product marketing team that is getting ready to do the roadmap for their product, can't see what the customer, the prospect is looking for because they don't have access to this information. So that third tool allows all of this information to go into it. And then with our tool, we use artificial intelligence and natural language processing to automatically tag this information. And we use semantic learning for it to identify things like location company and individuals by reading through and analyzing the, the, the content that you're adding to the system. So, there are those types of tools and, and it's interesting. We did some research a couple of years ago. The pharmaceutical industry is by far kind of the most advanced commercial, competitive intelligence kind of industry. Most other industries, they're still kind of developing CI practices and, and most outside of the pharmaceutical industry. And I kind of call that life sciences. So not strictly just pharmaceuticals. Most organizations have I think it's like 1.2 people working on their CI. So not big teams, not, not at all. How can marketers use competitive intelligence? Kathleen: Yeah. It's so interesting. It's such a specialized field. I feel like you know, now coming back to kind of, the focus of this podcast obviously is inbound marketing. So a lot of marketers are listening and this can seem very unapproachable because like, for example, if you guys, you work with really large companies and they have these dedicated people let's start with what, how are those companies using competitive intelligence and how is that helping them make better business decisions or get better results from their businesses. And then we can kind of bring it back down to, for smaller companies, what are ways they could begin to approach this? So let's begin some like actual examples of how this plays out. John: Okay. So so I think that that, that the marketers marketers today, this is, this is my own belief. I believe they're, they're waking up to this need for competitive intelligence because your inbound marketing is no longer delivering the results that you were seeing before. So for just about a decade or so, we have as marketers, we've been really focused on the content I'm creating and attract, creating content, solving problems, answering questions, et cetera. And we've been rewarded with that with prospects and customers and results, and kind of the, you know, Marcus shared approach. They have questions kind of, you know, answer their questions and, and, you know, you'll be rewarded well. In the beginning that was really, really successful because there were fewer people doing it and, and the people that were doing it for the most part were really doing it. You know, it's not until much later that you're downloading the ebook and it's actually just 18 PowerPoint slides with two bullets on each slide and has nothing to do with an actual book. So we have to, as marketers look for things that are going to give us results. And so, as we were focused kind of internally on what we're talking about, what our prospects and customers are talking about, we're really ignoring what was going on in our market and our competitors. And so we were ignoring these macro issues. And so competitive intelligence is kind of the other side of the equation. So you know, you've take your prospects and your customers, and that's one piece of success. And then, but, but you can't do that in a vacuum. Those that do SEO work understand that. So you find out what your teams are, you know, what you want to rank for and what your competitors are ranking for. And then you do SEO work to help change those rankings. Well, your competitors, don't just sit still. They're also looking at what's going on in the market and looking at the actions that you're doing. And so, you know, we found this need to to address, well, how do I understand what's going on in the marketplace and how do I position myself against my competitors or the other options that that my prospects and customers have. So that's a long roundabout way of explaining how companies are using competitive intelligence to better deploy their resources. And so when, when you're doing this before, you can get to actually doing competitive intelligence work, you have to have a really clear understanding of your differentiators and, and your vulnerabilities. So that's where, you know, somebody who wants to begin doing competitive intelligence work, I would challenge them to to, to sit down and do the, the work on how are you different from your competitors, you know, and, and where do you have overlap and where is that overlap? Where does that lead to, or where could you be vulnerable because of that overlap? What impact does competitive intelligence have on businesses? Kathleen: So the larger companies that you guys work with, obviously have that part figured out. They, you know, they have their teams in place, they understand their differentiators. So when they undertake competitive intelligence, how are they using it? Like in practical terms to get better business results? Do you have some case studies or some success stories or anything like that that you can share of how, like, how does competitive intelligence produce better outcomes for these companies? John: Yes. So this was this was a very kind of rude awakening coming from the marketing agency world where you know, you have clients and you're working with clients and you're doing great work for them. And you ask your clients, Hey, you know, would you mind providing a testimonial, a quote, being a part of a, you know, a white paper case study you know, sharing your experience and, and usually it's, Oh yeah. You know, they're very supportive of that when you are in the competitive intelligence world, nobody wants to talk about the tools that they're using, what you're doing for them, because by nature of it, you are, you know, you're giving away intelligence for your competitors to use against you. Kathleen: You know what other industry is like that? Cybersecurity. I know that, of which you speak. John: So let me, I can talk in some kind of in general terms. So we estimate and Cipher has been around for 20, 25 years. We estimate that most most people doing CI work spend about 70% of their time gathering and organizing information. If we go back to the definitions that we had of data, information, and intelligence, data and information add zero value to the business. So you're spending 70% of your time on things that have no value add to the business. Only 30% of your time is on the analysis, developing the insights, you know, all of that information that your CI consumers, whether it be your sales teams, your, your C suite, your product development team, your marketers, they all need this information, but the bulk of your time is spent gathering it and, and organizing it. And, that is because your business is complicated and information comes in lots of different forms, and some of it is structured. And some of it is unstructured. You know, you have information internal reports. You have, as I mentioned before, you have emails that are received from salespeople. You have teams that are out in the field and going to trade shows and seeing you know, what your competitors, their messages at their trade show boots, you have competitor websites that are changing and messaging. And so so what our tool does is it automates a lot of that. For example we have many customers before they started using our tool Knowledge360, that would have 18 number. And some of them would have more that would manually go out to competitors' websites and look at their websites and look for changes in their websites. And that could be pricing changes if you're in an industry or, or, you know, a market that is price sensitive, you want to know about those changes. And, you know, it could be messaging changes. So by using a tool like Knowledge360, we can automate that. And so the tool goes out, it gathers the information. It says, Hey, this page has changed. It highlights the, the, the new information, you know, and, and that's, that's there in one color, it highlights the information that has been changed or removed and another color. And now an analyst can take a look at that and say, Oh, this is really meaningful. You know, so that's, that's an example of how are a tool like ours or how anyone can use competitive intelligence. So, to monitor the messaging that your competitors are using, or if they have a pricing page, you know, you can, you can monitor that for changes in their pricing. How do companies use competitive intelligence? Kathleen: So it sounds like the tool itself can be used to save time to streamline the process, but like, what are these companies doing with this information? How, like, why are they spending all this money on competitive intelligence? What is it doing things successful? John: So if you think about this so it's helping them be successful by giving insights and providing this intelligence that your decision makers are looking for. And ultimately, hopefully you're, you're enabling them to make better informed decisions. So if you think about think about someone that has you know, you're wearing glasses, but they have blinders on, and you can only see right in front of you. And you're making your decisions based on your field of vision that is just in front of you. Now, you take those away and you have a wider field of vision, and you have more information. You may, you may make a different decision. Kathleen: What's an example of something, a marketing thing that I might do differently based on the information I would find? John: So here's, here's an example. So if I have a, let's say I'm a nationwide company and I compete with someone on the East coast. Okay. And they're a good competitor. I went against them. Sometimes they went against me sometimes. But I have offices on the East coast and also on the West coast. Well, if I had a CI department, one of the things they might be monitoring or looking for is job postings with my competitors. So if all of a sudden, one of my competitors is posting a sales manager position in the Seattle market, and they're not in the Seattle market. And one of my key customers is in the Seattle market. Oh, that's something that I want to know about because it looks like my competitor is coming into, if they're going to invest in building out a sales team, putting an office in Seattle. Now, all of a sudden, my sales people that have only had to deal with maybe the competitors that were in that local market without this East coast competitor, they now need to be aware of this new competitor coming into the market. And that may change how we position ourselves. It may change how we price things. It may change, you know, the terms of her contracts. It could have all types of different information, you know, of, of business decisions that we make. How Cipher uses competitive intelligence for itself Kathleen: So I'm assuming that you guys are, as I like to say, drinking your own champagne, because I don't like the phrase eating your own dog food. So how does Cipher use competitive intelligence? John: So so we use this fantastic tool called Knowledge360. It's very comprehensive. We have several dashboards that we use. And one in particular that is called our competition crusher. And so with our competition crusher dashboard, it's a feed of news announcements on it's a feed of social. It has intelligence that our salespeople gain talking to prospects and customers. Our marketing team will add information like messaging changes that we might see and all of this battle cards. So if we know we're going up against a particular competitor, we want to, you know, we want to draw attention to these benefits of using our product. And, and if we know that there are gaps, you know, we want to ask our prospects about, you know, the gaps that we know our competitors have. So, that's one example of how we're using it to kind of gather all of that information, organize it in a way, you know, and the beauty of using something you're using a tool that provides dashboards is the dashboards are updated in real time. So unlike, you know, most people, if they have any experience or exposure to CI work it's typically a part of the, you know, quarterly sales meeting. And there's somebody that comes up that says competitor ABC is doing this. And then, you know, they share the PowerPoint deck and, you know, a quarter later another report comes out, but there's a lot of time and a lot of change that goes on between, you know, the publishing of those two different reports. And, you know, you may make different decisions having a dashboard that's always on always available, always monitoring. You're always getting the most up to date information. And so we share that with our leadership team, our sales team, marketing team, customer, all of them add to, and, and consume information from those dashboards. Prediction markets and the future of competitive intelligence Kathleen: And then real quickly, because I feel like this could be an entirely other podcast episode. I feel like with competitive intelligence, you're looking at things that have already happened, right? You guys have something I find fascinating, which is this other side to your business where you can do much more predictive stuff. It's super cool. And you have something called predictive markets. So can you, somewhat quickly because we are coming up on our time, just give people a sense of what I mean, cause that's really like competitive intelligence looking into the future, if you will, or trying to figure out what's gonna happen in the future. So how does that work? John: So that is really cool stuff and it is relatively new. So Cipher systems and another company Consensus Point, we merged towards the end of last year. Consensus Point is a a research company. So as competitive intelligence professionals, they gather information and they do research. You have two primary types of research yet. Primary research and secondary research, secondary research being research that's available to anyone and those might be market reports or things that are publicly available and anyone has access to those or they're not restricted. Primary research is research that you do, you hire someone to do on your behalf and that's information that you have. And that if, if done correctly and on the appropriate things could be a competitive advantage having this primary information or more information about a particular topic. Well, what you're talking about is predictive markets research. So if you think about primary research, most people are familiar with polls and surveys. And so that is a traditional kind of primary research method that is it's, it's very effective for certain things. It's also riddled with problems for other things, for example human beings in general, we are very poor predictors of our own performance. So you know, just ask anyone with a child and ask them how bright their child is. Nobody is going to tell you that their child is below average average, you know, they're Oh, you know, top 1%, 10%, 5%. Well, that's not true because most of us are average. Kathleen: That's why it's the definition. 90% of us are not in the top 10%.  John: That's exactly right. So what a prediction market is, is it is think of a market, probably one of the most common is the stock market. So, you know, the stock market is a platform where people have are placing wagers on whether or not, you know, the value of a company is going to increase or decrease. So if you think about this, and this is a great book that I'll have to give you. It's by a poker player. I'll give it to you so you can add to the show notes, but basically if you ask somebody, you know, do you think Apple stock is going to be higher than it is the value of it is going to be higher in one month from today's point you know, you might say, yes. Okay, well, how much are you willing to bet it's up? So if you put real money, your hard earned money, like how many shares of Apple stock are you willing to purchase at today's price? Check out "Thinking In Bets" by Annie Duke John: You know, and it is, are your beliefs, do they change? So a prediction market is, you are using the social behavioral characteristics of individuals and their collective kind of wisdom of the crowd, thinking about whether or not the probability of something becoming true or taking place. And so that is a much more accurate indicator of actual events that happen than simply asking someone in a survey or a poll. So now, what we're so excited about is the two of those together. So now you know, our platform, not only do we help aggregate information that you're gathering and do that analysis on it, we are now adding this research component to the tool as well, so that you can do your research. You can, you know, you can store it within one central repository and you can make it available to the organization as it needs to be Kathleen: Cool. And I know you guys are using it for things like trying to predict what the world post COVID is going to look like and all kinds of other really interesting forward looking applications. So thank you for sharing that. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: We are now coming towards the end of our time, so I wanna make sure I squeeze in my couple of questions that I ask everybody. The first is, of course we are all about inbound marketing on this podcast. So is there a particular company or individual that you think is really killing it with inbound marketing right now? John: Let's see, you know, I I just recently became aware of a tool MarketMuse. I think that they're doing a very good job with their messaging, kind of very classic, kind of inbound marketing freemium model, et cetera. So I would say that they're one company that does a really good job of inbound marketing. And I have to say then another one that comes to mind and you know, full disclosure here, I'm a customer and and a big fan of Databox. I think Databox, and Pete Caputa's doing a phenomenal job there. He cranks out more content and they use their chat panel to support customers and are really all about helping customers solve problems. And they're, they're doing a fantastic job. I think, of inbound marketing. Kathleen: Yeah, Pete's awesome. And fun fact, he was a very early guest of this podcast. So if you want to get some insight into how Pete does marketing, you can listen to that episode with him. And I will put that link in the show notes. Question number two. The biggest challenge I hear marketers share with me is that so much changes so quickly in the world of digital marketing. So how do you personally keep yourself educated and up to date on everything that's going on? John: I have a hugely unfair advantage being married to a fantastic marketer who is constantly scouring the interweb for the latest and greatest tool and slacking me at home because yes, we have our own personal Slack channel for our youngest son and Kathleen and myself. But, selfishly I rely heavily on what you share with me. Kathleen: Well, that's a valid answer and it's true. I mean, it's so funny. So we're sitting here, it's during the COVID pandemic and of course we're still working from home. So I am up in my office, which is on the second floor of our house. John is in his current office, which is smack dab in the middle of our kitchen. And we are Zooming with each other from two rooms away and yes, we Slack each other from two rooms away all week long. So we are the big old marketing nerds that do that. How to connect with John Kathleen: All right. If somebody wants to connect with you learn more about Knowledge360, ask you a question about competitive intelligence. What is the best way for them to connect with you online?  John: I would say the best way to connect with me is via LinkedIn. John Booth, like the guy that shot Lincoln, but not related. And if you want to learn more about Knowledge360, you can go out to Cipher-sys.com or TryK360.com and learn. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Awesome. I will share that in the show notes. Thank you for joining me, John. I know you have a busy day. We are recording on a Sunday and I'm pretty sure there's like some kind of house project that you want to be working on instead of recording a podcast with me. And if you're listening and you learn something new and you like what you heard, please, head to Apple podcasts, leave the podcast at five star review. That is how other people find us. And I would really appreciate it. But that is it for this week. Thank you, John. John: Thank you, Kathleen. Kathleen: And happy father's day. Because we are recording on father's day. You're the best for doing this for me. Thank you. Alright. That's it for this week. Thanks for listening everyone.

Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Coaching PressureDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                A basketball tournament is a test.  It's a test of a team's skill and a coach's savvy.  But long before the players ever show up on the court, it can be a test of an individual's character as well.  At least it was for Coach John Wooden in 1948. John:              I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying.  He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room.  So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go. Bob:                John Wooden, who would go on to be come one of the greatest coaches in basketball history, but he was a coach who was known as much for his character as for his basketball prowess.  Stay with us for a conversation with the Coach, John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You know, this would make one of those great trivia questions that pop up on those sports talk shows from time to time – who was the Indiana Rubber Man? Dennis:          Mm-hm. Bob:                Now, you know and I know, because we had a chance to talk to the Indiana Rubber Man, but I wonder how many of our listeners know that a man who is considered today to have perhaps been the greatest coach of all time in any sport, Coach John Wooden of the UCLA Bruins, was once one of the great players in basketball – both in college basketball and then in semi-pro basketball. Dennis:          That's right.  He is one of two that are in the Basketball Hall of Fame, both as a player and a coach.  The other is Lenny Wilkinson, I believe, and, of course, we talked yesterday about Coach Wooden and a little trip Bob and I made out to Southern California to interview him.  He slipped into the studio with Bob and me, and you need to hang with us today and tomorrow, because at the end of tomorrow's broadcast, I'm going to tell you a cute story about Coach Wooden autographing a book for me.                           Because I did play ball, as Bob mentioned yesterday, in college.  My average was just about the same as Coach Wooden's, in fact – no, it really wasn't. Bob:                A little less than average is what's your average. Dennis:          Yeah, I was less than average, no doubt about it, but he was an All American, as you said, Bob, but he was more than that.  He was a man of, I believe, a simple faith in Jesus Christ and in God and who lived out his commitments to his players, to his family, and to his wife, Nellie, and you're going to hear some touching moments about how this man fulfilled his marriage covenant with his wife. Bob:                Coach Wooden has been known throughout the years as a man of great integrity, great character, and a great molder of men, and if you ask him what he did, he says, "I was just a teacher.  I've taught boys how to play basketball." Dennis:          Yeah, in fact, he almost went into teaching, which is interesting. Bob:                We'll hear about that today.  This is taken from a conversation – an extended conversation – that we had with Coach John Wooden not long ago.  Here is Dennis with Coach Wooden. Dennis:          A story that you tell that I want you to share with our listeners came at the conclusion of your first year at Indiana State University, where you won the conference title, and you received an invitation to play in the NAIA Tournament, but you turned them down.  Why? John:              We had a pretty good year, the first year, and the NAIA Tournaments played in Kansas City – 32 teams then – and I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament.  So even though this was – of the 12 men on the team, he played the least of all, he didn't get to play very much, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team.  So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go.                         Now, the next year I had everybody back on this team, exactly the same team, no one came in and beat anybody else out, and so the next year we had a good year, and were invited again, and I refused again, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying.  He'd have to stay someplace else.  He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room.  I said no, I wouldn't do that, but I was persuaded by the NCAA and his parents that we should go; it might help.  So we went, and he stayed with a minister and his wife and came into the hotel from the game.  He didn't get to play very much at all, but that was the first black player that had ever played in that tournament, and I think a few years later an all-black team won.  So we sort of opened the door a little bit. Bob:                You undoubtedly had some players – when you came back and told the team we've been invited to the tournament but we're not going to go because they won't accept this one player – there had to be some guys going, "Coach, I want to go to Kansas City, I want to play on the team.  Let's just go along with their rules."  Didn't anybody raise their hand in protest? John:              I don't think anyone protested.  Some would have liked to have gone, yes, but they didn't.  I knew these men, and most of them I'd had in high school before, and they knew how I felt about things, and there was no problem.  They caused me no problem there. Dennis:          As your career was taking off, you were also in the process of beginning your family.  You had a daughter and a son, and what I wonder is, I wonder how did you juggle the tension of your marriage, your family, your faith, and a demanding profession?  What value in your core, as a man, was your measurement?  How did you juggle it all? John:              I wish Nellie were here to answer that question for you.  Well, Nan, of course, was born in Dayton, Kentucky, when I was down there, and then Jim was born in South Bend two years later, but I tried, definitely tried – Nellie always went to games with me, and I wouldn't leave her to go scout or anything of that sort, unless she couldn't go, not bring basketball home.  I tried not to do that.  Now, can you do that 100 percent – probably not.  But I tried not, and Nellie, when she was interviewed at times, I'd heard her say that, "John never brought the games home.  I could never tell after a practice" – she was practically at all the games – "but never after a practice, I could not tell by his demeanor whether he had a good practice or a bad practice or had problems at all."  And maybe she stretched the truth a little bit there, but I certainly tried not to.  I wanted – next to faith – I wanted family first. Bob:                We had the opportunity once to interview Coach McCartney from Colorado – a football coach who started Promise Keepers, and his wife told us that at the beginning of the football season all of the coaches and their wives would get together for a party that they said was the "Football's Here, Goodbye, Dear," party.  Because they said that from the middle of the summer until the end of whatever ball game you were going to, you rarely saw your husband.  Is the demand of coaching higher today than it was when you were coaching or did you just order your world differently than other coaches did? John:              I don't think demand is any higher, it's just what you make out of it.  You have to be disciplined on what you're doing.  You have to establish your own priorities and then stick to them.  I don't think it's any different, and as far as pressure being on you, the only pressure that amounts to a hill of beans is the pressure you put on yourself.  If you permit outside pressure, alumni pressure, or parental pressure from the outside, if you permit those to influence you, then you're weak.  You better get on with something else, but you'd probably find the same thing someplace else, too. It's like my players – when I'd recruit the player, I'd say, "Now, if you come here, you're going to be unhappy for a while.  You're going to be unhappy.  You're going to be away from home for the first time, you're not going to be the big shot that you were in high school, but you're not going to like it here for a while.  But if you go someplace, it would be the same thing.  You wouldn't like it there, so it might as well be here."  I sort of felt that way about it, and I think that pressure is – when the coaches talk to me about pressures, I say, "Get out, get out, get out."  The pressure amounts to a hill of beans of what you put on yourself.  You've got to put pressure on yourself, do a good job, do the best you can, study, work as you can, but don't let that be all-encompassing.  There are other things more important. Dennis:          How did Nellie keep your family on the track and help John Wooden as a man keep his priorities?  I mean, you undoubtedly had your moments when you would work too hard, too long, and be a little too consumed with it all.  How did she come alongside you – how was she a good helpmate and counterpart to the Coach? John:              Well, she was just a good mother and a good wife, and we had a little disagreement, I remember, one time many, many, many, many years ago, many years before I lost her, we had a little disagreement, and I left the house to go to work without [inaudible], and I should have but when I went to bed that night there was a little note on my pillow with a card, it's still there, it says, "Don't try to understand me, just love me."  And that's it.  I think we had a great relationship more than anything else, and I've said that when we – we talked about this, and, gracious, we're going to disagree on a lot of things, but let's try not to be disagreeable. Dennis:          You had a little tradition that you and Nellie enjoyed right before the game started.  Now, Bob, I remember watching Coach Wooden on TV when college basketball games started being televised, but there was something I missed as an observer, a little tradition that he had with Nellie before the game started. John:              Back when I was playing in high school, she played in the band, and I'd try to position myself where I could look up and see her in the band, and she's always give me a – and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and that continued, you know, in my teaching days.  Before every game, I'd find her and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and so that's probably what you're thinking of.  Superstition?  No, it wasn't superstition, it just made me feel good. Dennis:          Just a little wink. John:              That's right, that's right. Bob:                You wound up as the coach of UCLA because of a snowstorm. John:              Correct. Bob:                Tell us how you got that job. John:              I was considering both UCLA and the University of Minnesota.  That had both offered me the jobs, and I wanted to stay in the Midwest in the Big 10.  UCLA was going to call an hour after Minnesota was going to call.  Minnesota didn't call, and UCLA called, and I accepted.  About an hour later I got a call from Minnesota saying everything was all worked out, and I said, "I'm sorry, I've committed myself.  I can't back out now."  And there was what they called an "unseasonable" snowstorm that had the lines down, and they couldn't get to a phone to call me at the time, they said.  So that's how close it came. Bob:                Why didn't you just hang on until they got on – why did you take the job at UCLA if you wanted to be in Minnesota?  Did you think they were going to not call?  They'd decided to go with somebody else? John:              I suppose I thought that.  I don't remember exactly now.  All I know is they didn't call in time, and I'm a stickler for time.  My players will tell you one of the rules that I had throughout is be on time to your classes, to practice, to the bus – be on time – and if you're not, some action will be taken.  As the years went by, I learned not to tell them what the action would be. Bob:                It didn't matter whether there was a snowstorm or not, they needed to be on time. Dennis:          I want to know, Coach, why you chose coaching.  I mean, you said you loved to teach English, you were a teacher at heart, you could have done a lot of things.  Why did you do it? John:              I went to Purdue to become a civil engineer – that's what I wanted to do, but I didn't know – high school counseling, obviously, wasn't as good in those days, and I didn't know that to get your degree in civil engineering you had to go to civil camp every summer.  Well, I knew I couldn't go to civil camp every summer.  I had to work in the summers, so I couldn't do that.  So I changed to a Liberal Arts course and majored in English, and I knew, from that time on, I'm going to teach.  I enjoyed teaching, as time went by.  I enjoyed it.  I taught English in high school, and I wanted to be a good English teacher, and I enjoyed it, and once I got into it, I had opportunities to get out in other areas where, financially, it would have been better, but I enjoyed teaching.  Who was it said that you find a job that you enjoy, you'll never work a day in your life. Dennis:          And you view coaching as teaching? John:              Of course, it is.  That's all it is.  You're teaching sports.  You've heard some of my players, particularly some of the talkative ones like Bill Walton, will often say in his interviews that coach was teacher. Dennis:          Coach, as you taught, you believed in teaching about the fundamentals. John:              Oh, absolutely. Dennis:          In fact, in coming into this studio, the one thing I regret that I didn't bring in here – I brought you a banana, because I know you like a banana, but I should have brought a pair of socks – athletic socks – into the studio, because you took high school stars – you began with a very simple point of instruction. John:              That's correct.  I taught them how to put on their socks and their shoes.  I wanted no wrinkles in the socks, and I'd show them how to put it on and smooth around the little toe.  Your blisters usually come from around the little toe or the heel area, and I wanted to show them how to do that, because I know if you don't, they just pull them up.  To me, I think, it was just as important thing – a little detail, but little details is what make big things happen. Bob:                You had some players who obviously became players of note not only in college but on into the NBA.  Some of them seem to be outside of the Wooden paradigm, if I can call it that.  You know, Bill Walton does not strike me as the prototypical John Wooden basketball player.  It almost seems like here's a guy who can play the game, but here is a disciplined coach and a player who – well – discipline was not high on his list of virtues, was it? John:              In certain areas, you might say that, but Bill is very dear to me.  For many, many years he calls me three or four times a week from all over, but at the time he played for me, it was a time of the anti-establishment, and he was anti-establishment very much at that particular time.  I was concerned about money and things, but I have no right to determine the politics of my players.  Now, actually, the religion – that's them.  But he's a good student, he's an honor student, he's in the academic hall of fame.  When he came on the basketball floor, you couldn't ask – no one could ask – for a player to be more cooperative, set a great example.  No one worked harder – never a problem in any way.  But he had his little quirks, as we all have, and … Bob:                … what about his facial hair, though?  He did show up one time … John:              … well, he decided I didn't have the right to tell him how to wear his hair, and I said, "You're absolutely right, Bill, I don't have.  All I have the right is to determine who plays, and we're going to miss you." Bob:                You said, "If you want to keep the beard, you're off the team?" John:              That's right. Dennis:          This is an All American you're talking to. John:              That's right. Dennis:          But you drew a line in the sand over the facial hair. John:              I did, I did. Dennis:          And what did Bill do? John:              Then he hurried and got fixed up then. Bob:                He shaved his beard off, didn't he? John:              And he's been asked, "Do you think Coach would have gone through with it?"  And he said, "Well, you know what I did."  If I have a rule, I'm going to stand by it.  But always remember there can be a gray area at times.  There was a time in my teaching that I had no gray area – it was either black or white with me.  But there can be a gray area, and I made two mistakes – I made many, but I know two that I recall that I regret very much because I didn't see the gray area. Bob:                What are those two? John:              Well, I had a rule in high school that smoking was automatic dismissal from the squad for the year, and my finest player, my only center I'd had, I caught him smoking, and I dismissed him.  I had the rule, and I … Dennis:          … and you think it's a mistake now, looking back? John:              Well, he quit school, he never finished school.  He would have gone on to college.  I think I was wrong.  I should have handled it in a different way. Bob:                What was the second thing, you said, that you regretted? John:              I had a player that didn't qualify for his letter.  This was in high school, but he was a fine person that worked very, very hard, and – but, anyway, his dad came in one day and called me and wondered if I'd come out and talk to him.  I did, and he said, "Is Joe going to get a letter?"  I said – no tact ­– I said, "Well, I haven't really decided yet."  And he said, "I'll tell you this" – remember, I'm just a young man – and he said, "I'll tell you, if he doesn't, I'm going to have your job." Dennis:          He threatened you. John:              Yes, he did, and I didn't like that, and I ended up by not giving the boy his letter, and I feel, down deep in my heart, that I would have given him the letter if the dad – for the youngster because of the dad, and that's wrong. Bob:                That's Coach John Wooden from the UCLA Bruins, although, at the time he made that decision that he regretted, he wasn't coaching on a national platform, he was just coaching high school boys back in Indiana.  It's interesting just to listen back to that story and hear it resonate with a coach who cared more about doing the right thing than almost anything else. Dennis:          And, you know, Bob, he was reliving that story before us, and he's 91 years old.  That story occurred 60 years ago, but he really had a deep, profound regret that you could see on his face, as a man, that he had not done what he thought was the right thing, and I think there is a tremendous lesson for us to live lives with no regrets – to do the right thing today, to obey Jesus Christ, His Word, and the commitments to responsibilities we have.  And one of the things He's commanded us to do that I think you can use Coach Wooden to accomplish is Christ has given us the Great Commission, and we're to go and proclaim Him.                         I think this interview with Coach Wooden we've compiled into 107 minutes, two CDs, that would make a great gift to give each of your children's coaches, whether they be a Little League coach, a junior high, high school, college, it doesn't matter.  In fact, Bob, I've reflected on this – many times I wish I'd had these two CDs to have given a coach who maybe was saying a little more than he should be saying; maybe acting a way that he shouldn't have been acting, and I just have to believe that there are some coaches who are going to get these CDs – some dads and some moms who are going to – they're going to think about how they coach, how they behave, how they teach in ways because of this great coach's example.  He is truly like Christ. Bob:                What they're going to hear in the interview with Coach Wooden that you can have character and integrity and self-control and still be a champion.  In fact, you can be one of the greatest coaches who ever lived.  We've got the two-CD set available here on our FamilyLife Resource Center, and whether you want to listen to it yourself or pass it on to a coach or a player, you can contact us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  Ask for the two-CD set entitled "True Succes:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden" when you contact us.  Again, you can order online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis:          It's a little early yet to be buying a Father's Day gift, but you might think about just getting this and stockpiling this for June. Bob:                That's a great idea.  And when you think about true success, Coach Wooden has mapped out for us what he calls a "Pyramid of Success."  He's taken the character qualities that he thinks are foundational to success – things like industriousness, loyalty and cooperation and initiative and alertness and skill.  There are many of them in this pyramid.  He's put the pyramid together, kind of like an engineer would do, to show that it's possible for anyone to achieve success in any field if these things are true about them.                         We've got his Pyramid of Success.  We've got a video where he explains the pyramid.  We've got the pyramid itself on our website at FamilyLife.com and on a mousepad that you can have at your desk, and then we've got a wallet card that has been laminated that you can carry around where some of Coach Wooden's counsel on living is recorded.  His seven-point creed – that's on a laminated card that we'll send to you, along with the video and the mousepad.  Ask for those resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.                           You know, our opportunity to provide these kinds of resources to you really comes as a direct result of folks all around the country who help support this ministry week in and week out with donations. Dennis:          And, Bob, there are two ways that they can join with us.  One is as a Legacy Partner, a monthly donor to our ministry, and there's another group of people who give from time to time – they may make out a check and just send it in and say I can't help you each month, but I can help this month.  You need to know that this ministry is 100 percent dependent upon God to move people like you who benefit from our broadcast to join with us in a partnership, and we need your partnership.  These are important days for you to stand with us. Bob:                Once again, if you'd like to donate to FamilyLife Today, you can do it online at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY or mail a check to us at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.                           Well, if you ever wondered what it was like to coach a basketball game in the Astrodome with TV lights blaring down on you, a nation watching, 50,000 fans there cheering the home team on, and you're the coach of the opposing team, and you've won 88 games in a row, you're going for number 89 and you lose – do you stay up all night worrying about what happened?  We'll find out when we talk to Coach John Wooden tomorrow.  I hope you can be with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind  Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled.  John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord.  Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is.  In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear.  It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people.  I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here.  But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water.  This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God.  This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about.  This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today.  They were married back in 1974.  John is a pastor and an evangelist.  They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind.  They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day.  I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told.  And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna."  When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything.  I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her.  Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna.  What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay.  We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church.  We enjoyed everything was going great.  We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life.  You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital."  So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that.  One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there.  And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?"  And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna:  No, sir.  You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna:  Yes, sir.  And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir.  It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you.  How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't.  When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married."  And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move.  I wasn't blind then.  I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it.  I said, "Marry?  Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good.  I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true.  Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me.  But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't.  I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter]  Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did.  He's a pretty good student.  Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know?  Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased.  There is no data left there."  To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it.  Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know?  It was hard.  It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take?  I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was.  I thank the Lord.  I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life.  And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know?  And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind.  In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know?  Okay, we've got a problem here.  We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me.  And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis?  Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk.  You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were.  That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read.  And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good.  My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me."  It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me.  And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did.  She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain.  It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading.  Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either?  I said, "What am I?"  She said, "You a preacher."  I said, "What a preacher is?"  And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know."  I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that.  You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?"  And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read."  Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to.  So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening.  Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God."  And I'd gotten a little worried.  You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord."  So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child.  That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word.  That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date.  I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that.  God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page.  I was brought up in a lost home.  My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive.  She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home.  She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord.  You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved."  And I said, "Stella, what would this be?"  She said, "It would be 12."  And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was.  And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood.  I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy."  She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter]  Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through.  This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?"  Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced?  It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband.  I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly.  I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind.  It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant."  Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things."   The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article."  Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD?  We've got friends we want to send it to.  There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You."  This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u.  And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You."  We're happy to send it to you.  We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well.  Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow.  We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased.  I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. For Better or For Worse Guest:                        John & Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: More than a decade and a half ago, John Bishop was experiencing headaches that took him to the hospital.  He was diagnosed with meningitis, and then a month later, unexpectedly, his memory was gone.  What happens to a person, to a marriage and a family, when everything about the past has been erased?  John Bishop says you have to start back at the beginning, learning to walk, to talk, learning to love. John: When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I Donna, we're married."  I said, "Married?  Married?"  And she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I look at her, I say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That what I call her ever since – "My Donna."  It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 5th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What would happen to your marriage if, all of a sudden, you were starting from scratch? John: I tell people she taught me everything I know.  Every woman dream come true – her husband forget it all, and she get teach him.   [laughter]  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  In our years of interviewing folks, we've met a number of couples and heard some remarkable love stories, but the story our listeners are hearing this week is an all-time classic, isn't it? Dennis: It may be the best.  I mean, we've heard some great ones here, but we wanted to bring this story to you, as a listener.  John and Donna were married in 1974.  They had three sons.  He was an evangelist for a number of years, pastored a church, had a ranch for young people that he helped staff and give leadership to. Bob: It was back in 1995, though, that he was diagnosed with aseptic meningitis and had to be hospitalized, and normally you recover from aseptic meningitis and life goes on. Dennis: But what happened was, it was like someone erased the chalkboard.  All the memory, all of his understanding of all the basics of life were gone because of this disease. Bob: This is a month after he's had his meningitis that he loses his complete memory.  He doesn't know that he's married, he doesn't know what marriage is, he doesn't know how to talk, he doesn't know how to eat. Dennis: He doesn't know who God is. Bob: It's like starting from scratch and, obviously, that leads to an incredible stress on a marriage, on a family.  I mean, what do you do from there, right? Dennis: It's one thing, Bob, to have a life-threatening illness and live through that valley, but the story you're going to hear is all about how they picked up and began to live life on a daily basis. Bob: Donna, it's almost like when you brought John home from the hospital, you were bringing home a newborn baby who had some adult-level functionality but some very baby-like qualities.  Was he ever like a bad boy?  When he was home from the hospital, were there ever times when you thought, "I'm going to have to" … Dennis: Let's put it the way it is, Bob – did he ever pitch a fit? Bob: Or a tantrum? John: I can answer that – yes. Bob: Did he go through the terrible twos with you? [laughter]  Donna: Yes, he would – especially when it came to eating.  He wanted to eat his dessert first.  "Why do I have to" – you know, he was always asking questions, why he has to do this and do that, and it was funny, one time I came home, and he was trying to help me, so he was washing the dishes.  When he washed the dishes, he broke a plate or a glass or something, and so he hid it in the trash, buried it in the bottom of the trash so I wouldn't know that he broke a plate. So, you know, he was hiding things from me and sneaking around behind me when he was doing things he thought I didn't want him to do. Bob: Now, here's your husband. John: [laughing] Yes … Bob: … acting this way, and you feel like you have to paddle him, spank him, for how he's behaving?  How do you handle that, as a wife, when … Donna: I'd be glad to spank him. [laughter]  John: She never spanked me, but she had to get after me but, oh, she has been so patient. Bob: When did you – when did it dawn on you that you had a sin nature – that deep inside of you is this rebellion that you want to be selfish, and you want things the way you want them.  When did that register for you? John: Once I began listening to the Bible on tape, I – for instance, Bob, I can remember first lie I told, and at least after the illness.  In the hospital the nurses had asked me if I had taken something, and it was something I didn't like, and so I had thrown it away, and I told her I had taken it.  Now, I didn't know what a lie was, but I felt guilty.  But later on I learned what lying was. Dennis: I'm sitting here thinking when you hid the plate – that also had to result in some guilt. John: Yes, mm-hm. Dennis: So here is God convicting you of your need for forgiveness, your need for Savior.  And yet you've already made that commitment as a young lad growing up.  You don't happen to have that sheet of paper do you? Bob: The page in your Bible that shares your testimony? John: No, I didn't bring it.  I sorry, I didn't bring it with me. Dennis: Basically, what does that sheet of paper say? John: Well, it tells about that Saturday night in September.  I was brought up in Bristol, Tennessee, over in east Tennessee, and there was a citywide crusade, and the preacher was C.E. Autry.  He is with the Lord now.  As a matter of fact, I've got a book.  I have his name down.  I can even tell you the song they sang that night.  On my testimony CD I have some people sing it – "It is no Secret What God Can Do." [music – "It Is No Secret What God Can Do"] Evidently, that song meant a lot to me, and so I even put that down – they sang that song that night.  I was a 15-year-old teenage boy and lost home, and Mama was telling me that none of the family was saved at this point.  And I even wrote that I brought a Gospel tract home from the stadium, the Tennessee High football stadium, it's still there, and with John 3:16 on it, I can tell you it was a Saturday night that September, I got on my knees, and I put my name where "whosoever was" – "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him," and I put my name – "whosoever" there – "should not perish but have everlasting life."  I know all those details but can't remember a bit of it, but I wrote it there, and I'm just so glad that I received the Lord as a teenager. And then Mama said I surrendered to the call to preach, and preached my first sermon a month after my salvation, and I've been preaching ever since.  The Lord has just helped me and, matter of fact, she said able to be interim pastor of a little country church when a senior in high school, and this is true now – it's Goose Pimple Junction, Virginia.  That's where it was – population 29, and so … Dennis: Hold it, hold it, Goose Pimple … John: Yes. Bob: Junction? John: Mm-hm, Virginia, and it is there.  You've been there, haven't you, Donna? Donna: Been there, yes, sir. [laughter]  Bob: Donna, did you ever have anyone come alongside you after the illness, while you were trying to care for raising your boys and care for John and say, "You know, there's a place he could stay where they'd take care of him, and you shouldn't have to bear this burden?"  Did you have folks suggest that to you? Donna: Yes, sir, I had somebody suggest that I could do that, you know, if I got tired and so forth, and I would get tired of taking care of him, but I thought about it.  I thought, you know, I could, but just go on.  I just was never tempted to do anything like that. Dennis: Now, what our listeners don't know is the length of time this story took.  I mean, we're not talking about 30 days in rehab back to John getting to normal.  John, give our listeners an idea here of the timeline we're talking about here. John: Well, for several weeks, Dennis, she had to do everything for me, and you know what I mean, I say everything.  I was like a baby.  This went on for weeks and weeks.  Like I say, it took me near two years to where I could walk, and I had to work at it, work at it, and so forth, but it was just incredible how good she was to me. I remember one day she finishing cleaning me up again, and I look at her, I say, "Donna, why so good to me?" And she said, "Well, two reasons."  And I said, "What that?"  "Well," she said, "one, I promise I would."  I said, "Promise?  I don't remember promise."  And she went and got our marriage vows, and she brought them, and she said, "John, we got married."  I said, "In sickness and health, better or worse," and I remember I said, "Donna, I am so sorry it this worse, but thank you keeping promise, thank you."  And then she said, "But second reason is" – and she gave me a big hug and says, "I love you."  And I got an award back a couple of years ago.  A college had asked me to come and they surprise me, they asked me give testimony, and they were giving me an award, and so I was so scared I was going to have to say something and right at last minute, and I thought, "What I going to say?"   And here is what I said – I got up, I said, "I'm going to take this award home to my Donna, and will get on my knees, put in her lap, and I'm going to say, 'Donna, if it wasn't for God and you, I wouldn't even be alive much less getting this."  So I said, "This yours."  I said, "One day I get to heaven, and I'm going to say 'God, why you been so good to me?' and I think God going to give me two reasons.  He going to say, "One, I promise I would," and He might remind me Roman 8:28, "All things work together good them love the Lord," and maybe say "John, I told you you love me, everything all right," and then I believe God going to give me a hug, and I believe God a good hugger, and He going to say, "But, John, main reason I love you," and I sure hope I have something put at His feet and say "Thank you, God."  But I can't describe how good she's been to me, and God and everybody been so good to me. Dennis: How does that make you feel, Donna?  I mean, I'm over here crying. Donna: I'm thankful that the Lord gave me the strength and that I was taught those valuable lessons that my family taught me and my church taught me when I was young, that it's worth it.  It's worth it in the end.  Don't ever bail.  Just stay with it, God will bless you. Dennis: For two years it took you to learn how to walk? Donna: To walk good, you know, without stumbling and up steps.  He has a real hard time with steps. Dennis: But even beyond that, John, you've suffered incredible headaches. John: Yes. Dennis: I mean, and just times of just feeling lousy. John: Yes. Dennis: And that's continued on for how long? John: All 12 years.  Immediately, because of the brain damage, I began having seizures, and I still have those.  But I gladly not quite as bad, and then cluster migraine headaches is what I have, and that's what actually caused my blindness.  They change nature, they're sort of what they call "ocular" cluster migraine.  But those have been big struggles for me, and I got very depressed, very discouraged.  I wish I tell you I got sick and just said, "Oh, everything be fine," and went on.  I didn't, Dennis.  I got very depressed and went through some very dark times, and I even prayed, "Lord, please take me home, please, because I hurt," and I felt burden for my Donna.  She never tell me I burden, but I felt that way, and depressed people do. And I got so depressed, I begged the Lord, "Please take me home, please."  I tell people when I talk audience, I said, "You never life seen person want to die and pray harder than man looking at," and then I say, "But now you never in your life want to see – ever seen anybody want to live more than man you're looking at."  God turned that around and helped me through those dark times.  But that was mainly because of the pain issues and the seizures. I called them issues instead of problems.  They just become problem if I let them, but I've had a lot of issues, you know, to go through, but the Lord's given me grace every time. Bob: You know, the name of your ministry … John: Yes? Bob: "God is so Good" Ministries. John: Yes. Bob: John, some of our listeners are going to hear this and say how can you, with all you've been through, testify to the goodness of God.  If God was good, why would He allow all of this to happen to you? John: Yes, and, you know, Bob, that was the struggle I was going through.  Those questions were going through my mind, and I needed to get hold of something, and the truth I got hold of, I was listening to Bible on tape, but I really loved the Book of Psalms because David been through some trials, too.  So I listened to it over, over, over.  Matter of fact, I wore that tape out and had to get another one.  And he kept saying, though, "The Lord is good."  He kept saying it, one psalm after other, other – "God is good."   And I'm not saying that all that God is – He is also holy, and He's just, and He's righteous, but the two things that stand out to me is He is good and He's right no matter what happens.  He's always good, and He's always right.  Our God put Himself through pain.  I am able to read now, Dennis, and I'm not smart enough to be able to know a lot of general information, so I focus my reading on people who are hurting, because that's my whole life now, is helping hurting people. The one thing I can tell people is nobody is hurt more than God.  When He gave His Son – they say one of the greatest pains a person can go through is the death of a child, but yet He let Him go through greatest pain anybody ever through because something better and – now, I don't have to know what all the better is, but I know I can trust this God because He let Himself hurt.  Jesus suffered more than any of us will ever know, and if God love His Son and let Him go through that because He knew something better for everybody, I'm going to trust Him that He got something better for me and everybody, too.  You can trust a God like that.  He's not like many other religions have gods that are above pain and above suffering.  Oh, God put Himself right in middle of it, and I can't always tell people I know how something feel unless I'd been through it, but I can tell them the Lord does because His Son went through the most incredible pain ever been and the reason we're here today is because He did. So I know good going to come from it because He's a good God. Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 2 of a conversation with John and Donna Bishop and, Dennis, as I was listening to John talk about responding to his own trials, his own pain, I thought of 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, where Paul says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of all mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted by God."  He is a living application of that verse.  Rather than being consumed by his own pain and suffering and saying, "Why me?"  He is comforting others in their affliction. Dennis: He is, and, you know, as we've talked here today, it just occurred to me – there are two groups of people that are listening to this broadcast.  One group, who is in the midst of suffering, and they're going through the valley right now, and they know exactly what John is talking about, and they have been comforted, as you've talked about.   But I want to remind that group of people where John's comfort came from, and to do that, I want to quote Dr. A.W. Tozer.  He said, "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  And the key to John's faith was he had the right thoughts about who God was.  He got them from the Scripture – that God is a good God.  No matter what happens to us, He is still good.  No matter what befalls those we love, God hasn't changed.  "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  There's a second group, though, and it's a far larger number, I think, Bob, even though we have a ton of listeners who are hurting who listen to this broadcast, and it's the larger number who need to be reminded of what they promised.  They promised, "'Til death do us part," and they needed to hear this love story.  I needed to hear it.  Who doesn't need to hear of a compelling promise that two people have made to each other to go through such an incredible ordeal as what Donna and John Bishop went through. Maybe you just need to take your spouse's hand before the day is over, and you just say two things – "I promised" and "I love you," and that's a great place to begin to build a family. Bob: You know, I think about the listeners who, over the next couple of weeks, are going to be off on a trip somewhere, a vacation or headed somewhere in the car.  They ought to get a copy of this CD and listen to it together as they drive wherever it is they're going together.  In fact, if the whole family is along, this would be a great story for the whole family to listen to. We've got copies of the CD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if our listeners would like to receive a copy, they can contact us online at FamilyLife.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  If you go online, when you get to the home page, on the right side of the screen, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast," click where it says "Learn More," and you can find out how to order a copy of the CD that features our complete conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We've had to edit parts of it for time purposes here on FamilyLife Today. Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the CD with John and Donna Bishop.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329.  When you contact us someone on our team will make arrangements to have the CD sent out to you. You know, on Friday nights at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, Dennis, we talk about the inevitable difficulties that will come to every marriage.  Very few folks will receive the kind of trial that John and Donna have had to experience in their marriage, but all of us will experience challenges and trials in a marriage and in a family.  The question is – are we ready for those trials when they come?  Are we building the foundation of our relationship each day so that when a trial comes, we are ready to face it because we can stand strong together on our relationship with Jesus Christ. You and your wife, Barbara, wrote a book several months ago, a devotional book for couples called "Moments With You," that is designed for a husband and wife to read through together each day, to spend some time in prayer together, to look at a passage from the Scriptures each day, with the hope that those few minutes invested together will strengthen the foundation of your relationship.   And this week we're making copies of your devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," available to our listeners when they contact us with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We are listener-supported.  Those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and so we appreciate hearing from you. If you go online to make a donation at FamilyLife.com, and you'd like to receive a copy of the devotional book, "Moments With You," just type the word "You" in the keycode box that you see on the donation form, the word, y-o-u, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent to you. If you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation over the phone, just request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," and, again, we're happy to send it out to you as a way of saying thank you for your partnership with us and for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We appreciate you. Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about how John and Donna Bishop can continue to call God good, even after all they've been through, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Making New Memories Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: The Bible teaches us a different way of thinking about trials, to count it all joy when we experience various trials.  That can be easy to read but very difficult to do.  Fifteen years ago, John Bishop lost his memory completely as a result of meningitis.  In the years that followed, there were many difficulties the Bishop family faced. John: That night I hurting so bad, and I'd listen to Psalm, and it said, "O taste and see that the Lord is good," Psalm 34a – "Blessed is the man trusteth in Him," and I said, "God, I going to believe you're good.  If I never get better I still going to believe you're good because that what Your Word says."  And I said, "Lord, this must be what faith means is believing You even when I don't feel like it."  So I'm going to believe God good whether I feel good or not.  I'm going to believe God good whether I get better or not just because the Bible say it. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 6th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  No matter what happens in your life, can you say God is so good, and all His ways are good? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  This past weekend we had a wedding.  My daughter, Katy, became Mrs. Katy Walker, and … Dennis: How did you do? Bob: I was fine.  I was thinking back to how all marriages start, and they all start with hopes and dreams and the expectation of a storybook romance and they all live happily ever after – that kind of a fairy tale scenario. Dennis: At least that's what we think is going to happen.  But when we start out a marriage relationship, we have no idea what God has in store for our spouse or for us, as a couple. Bob: Yes, and as we've been hearing this week, John and Donna Bishop experienced a unique circumstance in their marriage 13 years ago when he lost all memory, and the story had to begin again with a whole new set of circumstances; that the love story had to start up again from scratch.  And yet it's been remarkable to hear how God has sustained this couple and to hear them testify to His goodness in the midst of this kind of adversity. Dennis: And, you know, I want to turn to the listener at this point before you hear the rest of the story, and I want to encourage you to order a bunch of CDs and pass them out to your buddies. Bob: I've already done that.  I took … Dennis: I have, too, Bob, I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to the folks down at the warehouse, and I'm going to see if we can't make a deal so that you can order these – this story in quantity and pass it out at church, pass it out in your neighborhood.  This is going to be a story that I think is going to touch, literally, millions of people's lives around the nation. Bob: And as we hear part 3 of this story, we're beginning to get a picture of the tremendous impact John's illness had on a marriage and on a family.  I mean, here were John and Donna raising three sons. Donna:  It was hard on the boys.  I think it's probably hardest maybe on my youngest son, because he was 10 years old, and I remember one day Luke came to me, and he said, "Mom, it's not fair, because my brothers had a daddy that got to play ball with them and go hunting with them and do fun things with him," and he caught me on an up day there, so I said, "I know, but you know the Lord's going to let him be special in a different way than he was with your brothers."  And so I thank the Lord – my youngest son, he's a good boy, and I thank the Lord, and I think him and his dad are close. Bob: That had to break your heart, though, for your son to say, "It's not fair.  I want a daddy like my brothers had." Donna: I know.  It was – I struggle with the things – I was going to tell you that when – I remember one night John was laying on the couch there, and he said, "It's okay, God, that you let me be sick."  Well, when he said that, you know, I said, "Oh, no, it's not okay."  Because I just kept saying, "You know, Lord, you know, I married that other man back there, and I just would like to go back to that," and I struggled.  That was one of my struggles – the Lord just saying, "Okay, Lord, it's okay."  And it was easier for him to say it than for me to say it.  I just had a hard time. And so the Lord and I have had many discussions over this. Bob: Do you feel like you've had two husbands? Donna:  Yes, sir, I sure do. Dennis: What's the part of John before the illness that you miss the most? Donna: Probably the part just take the leadership and go on and just the energy just to go on and keep going into things. Dennis: So he was the leader, he was leading you and the family and the church and taking you in a direction. Donna: Yes, sir.  And he was, you know, just never stopped, just keep going. Dennis: What's the part of the new John that you like the best? Donna: I like the best part is he's very loving, very kind.  I guess the Lord slowed him down, and he slows down, and he appreciates things and is just – you know, when we slow down, it's amazing how many things we've learned to miss, you know, that we have missed along the way until we slow down. Dennis: John, as you hear your wife describe John prior to 1995, prior to the illness, as a man, and you are a man, I mean, you have to be like all the rest of us who want to say, "I want to be that man now." John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Do you feel that? John: Yes, I do, and yet they had some tapes of me preaching before my illness, but one day I listening one of my messages, and I was pretty harsh, and I was listening and "I don't like that guy," and I took tape out and threw it out window. [laughter]  And I like the new me better.  But, you know, my Donna puts it this way, said, before my illness I sort of knock them over the head but now I grab them by the heart.  But, you know, I think the Lord just decided if I going to use John, I going to break him all the way down and start over.  But what I know of me before, and what she telling me and so forth, I like the new me, and things don't bother me maybe like bother other people, because I've been through just so much, and not a whole lot more I could lose, you know?  So, okay, that part of it, let's go on, and I have a good time.  I tell people I'm a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I'm happy. [laughter]  Bob: You know, in circumstances like this, it's not unusual for people to say "Lord, why me?  Why is this the path You put me on?"  And it's not just the person who goes through the meningitis who asks that, but it's the person who is caring for the person who goes through the meningitis.  How have you wrestled with the "Why me?" question, Donna? Donna: I have wrestled with it, that's, you know, why – you know, I kept telling the Lord, "Lord, we were fine," you know, "we were fine," but the Lord has just showed me, "Donna, I have something special for you," and I have learned so many things through this, and I thank the Lord that He's brought us through this because I love him more, and I love him in a different way, and it's closer, and God is able to use us.  And if we're just willing to say, "Okay, Lord, it's all right.  Whatever you bring to my life, I know it's for my good."   Every day when I surrender the new thing that, "Okay, Lord, you can have that," and I was just – struggled.  I hung onto the back things, I guess, because I could remember them.  I hung onto the things in my past, and so – but every time I'd surrender, it was just so much better, and the Lord just eased and gave me so much comfort in knowing that the Lord has a reason for it. Bob: This is almost an impossible question for you to answer, but if the Lord came to you today and said, "Okay, I'll give you the old John, and we'll start from here with things the way they were, and we'll take everything of the last 15 years." Dennis: That's a hard question. Bob: You can have your choice, what do you want?  If you could go back and undo the last 15 years and just kind of be on the path you were on, which is what you longed for at some point, would you pick that, do you think? Donna: No, sir.  I'd take what the Lord has given us, I really would. Bob: You'd say, "This path has been the right one for me." Donna: Yes, sir.  I think if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd probably have said no.  But I know that God – this is God's plan for my life, and it's okay. Dennis: It's back to what John said earlier – "God is good, and He's right." Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: And … Bob: … blessed be the name of the Lord, right? Dennis: Yeah, even though it's not been easy, you've begun to experience some of the benefit of the pain that you've been through.  Can you share some of those benefits, what they would be? Donna: It's a closer relationship with the Lord.  Also faith – just knowing that God's going to take care of us, regardless of what we go through. Dennis: Give us an illustration of that.  How has He provided for you? Donna: Oh, He's taken care of everything.  I mean, we have more than we need.  As far as the physical things, God supplies everything.  Every time he goes to the hospital, I think, "Oh, here we go again," you know, but the Lord always takes care of everything, and everything always gets paid, we never late on bills.  God takes care of everything, and also our spiritual – God takes care of us spiritually, too, and gives us courage and strength and I think one thing that really touches my heart, too, is, you know, when John was in the hospital, you know, he'd just say the name of God, I knew he was praying to the Lord.  And, you know, God does – He never leaves us or forsakes us regardless. And so, you know, John might have forgot everything, and John with that hard – I couldn't go through those things at the time with him, but the Lord was with him all the way through it.  It doesn't matter how hard it gets, he's there.  And so how hard it gets on me or whoever, God is there, and we've just got to trust Him. Dennis: John, do you have anything to add to that? John: Well, the Lord gives us grace not just endure but enjoy, and, you know, he doesn't just say, "Okay, I'll give you enough grace endure this," there are times of endurance, but most time it's enjoyment.  And I get to travel, and I really cannot get to all the places people have invited me.  It's just incredible.  That's how I met one of your staff.  I took my first trip California by myself, and on airplane.  I told my Donna, "I can do it." Dennis: What's your vision?  What is it again? John: I'm blind, legally blind. Dennis: But it's 20 what? John: I don't know the number.  I can – one eye I can just make figures.  Like, I can tell you're there, but I wouldn't be able to recognize you.  Now, with these goggles that I have under here, I can read if I'm up close, and … Dennis: So how do you negotiate steps to get on a plane and to travel to California? John: You know, people are so nice to blind people.  If you've got that cane, they get out of your way. [laughter]  And I just able to make it through, and I called her, and I was there at the place, and I said, "Donna, nobody speaking English here, where am I?" [laughter]  Dennis: You were in California. [laughter]  John: She teasing – I was teasing her like I ended up another country or something.  But, you know, it's been fun.  One time I went and heard a speaker, she went with me, and this man said, "I know some of you out there got skeletons in your closet."  Well, I not been taught that yet, and I'm thinking real, and I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, mercy, if I knew somebody like that, I'd tell on them," you know?  And who would do that?  You know, and what skeleton is it?  And I got home, and I said, "Donna, that man knew people there with skeletons, and he wouldn't tell on them."  And she then had to explain to me. So I am learning all those things, but I do have fun, I do, and the Lord has been – just give me joy as well through the trials and I'm not always laughing, but I love hearing you, because you all laugh a lot, and I love be around happy people.   Bob: John, when you started losing your eyesight eight months ago … John: Mm-hm, yes. Bob: You had to think, you know, "Lord, haven't I had enough?  I mean, couldn't we just keep the eyes?  That would sure be helpful."  John: Yes.  Oh, Bob, that was one of the biggest struggles.  I should have been able to ace that one after what I've been through, but, I tell you, I struggled.  At first I couldn't believe it happening.  I thought, "Surely not."  Then I thought, "Oh, this just be two or three week, and the Lord say, 'Okay, I just testing you.'"  But it went on and on and on.  I almost felt like when Abraham was asked to give his son, and I thought of my sight, oh, I remember, I'd tell God, "Okay, Lord, not my will, thine be done," and then I had to tell Him, "I sorry, Lord, I didn't mean it," like I needed to tell him, but, I mean, I knew I was just saying the words. Because my ministry been built around telling people that we can trust the Lord with anything, and we can go on.  He said, "Rejoice in the Lord always," and I'd lost my joy over this.  "Oh, God," I said, "I'm so sorry," and it was just like I raised the knife, and I believe Abraham, when God told him offer son, I think probably at the time God knew he really would do it.  He stopped him and said, "Okay," and I finally got a point, "Okay, God, if you want the eyes, too, that is okay.  I really do mean it."   But that really was a big struggle for me.  I should have been stronger, but I wasn't. Dennis: John, I was told when you were going to come down here that just from an illness standpoint and battling all that you're battling, you might not have the stamina.  You've done remarkable. John: Thank you. Dennis: I mean, you're hanging in there with Bob's tough questions, and … Bob: Any headaches?  You feeling okay? John: Yes, I do have headache, and my pain level each day, Bob, is around 5 or 6, between 1 and 10.  When it get to 7, I have to medicate it a little bit; 8 and 9 I can live with.  If it gets 10, I have to go emergency room.  I getting stronger, but I not quite able handle 10. Bob: So where are you today right now? John: I about a 7. Dennis: Wow, wow. Bob: I don't know many people with a 7 … Dennis: Who would be doing radio. Bob: Or smiling or laughing or talking about how good God is. Dennis: And I think what our listeners don't see is, really, the smile on both their faces. Donna: That's what I appreciate about him, is he can be hurting so bad, but he still keeps going, and he complains some, yes, but, no, not like I would.  I know why the Lord didn't give me the headaches. Dennis: Not like he could, because of what he's going through. Donna: No. John: I try to be good to her.  She's been so good to me, and I love her. Donna: He's very good. John: I want to make her happy.  There are two big goals in my life.  Number one, make the Lord happy, number two, make my wife happy, and I love to be able to do that and get her things.  When I learned I supposed to love her as much as Christ loved church and gave Himself for – I remember when I heard that, "Wow, that a lot of love.  I got to work a whole bunch on this."  There is nothing world I wouldn't do for her, and she wouldn't ask me to do something wrong or bad, but I think how good the Lord been to me.  He's given me so many things. Dennis: I know there is one other thing you love to do, too, though. John: What's that? Dennis: You love to introduce people to the King of the Universe. John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Undoubtedly, there have been those who have heard your story, who don't know Him and who need to.  Would you like to take their hand in yours and place it in God's hand, explain to them how they can come into relationship with Jesus Christ and with the Lord God Almighty?" John: Yes, yes, thank you so much.  The Bible says the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance, and if people could just stop, and even if they've been through hard times, difficult times, God in His goodness gave us Son, Jesus, for us, that we might be saved and forgiven and be with Him one day.  You see, when I die, all my suffering over.  I read in Book of Revelation where John said, "in that city no more pain."  And, boy, howdy, am I looking forward to that – no more pain. The God that wants to give us that place of no more pain is Jesus Christ.  He gave us life, He shed His blood.  It took a good God to give His Son.  It took a good Savior to give His life so that if a person realizes they're a sinner, puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, He'll save them the moment they turn to Him.  And that's a good God, and I just beg people not turning away.  I have had atheists saved, Dennis.  I had one atheist get saved, and he said to me, he said, "John, I couldn't argue with you.  You just kept saying God good, and he said I finally one day I realize why have I turned down such a good God all these years?" And he gave his life to Christ.  I would love to know somebody give their life to Christ.  He's a good God. Dennis: And I would say to that person right now who is listening, why don't you take the offer that God is making on behalf of you?  The good God we've talked about who gave His Son, Jesus Christ.  You don't have to get down on your knees.  You can do it right where you are, driving in a car, listening on an iPod or computer.  But if you want to, it would be a good idea to get down on your knees and just surrender your life to Christ.  It is the greatest decision you'll ever make. And, John, I just want to thank you and Donna for telling your story and for allowing us the privilege of – and, Bob, I know you and I have worked together long enough, I know you feel the same – it's just an honor to be in the studio with you.  Thank you. John: It's been an honor for us, too. Bob: We want to make sure that those listeners who are interested in establishing a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and we want to invite you to get in touch with us.  There's a book we'd love to send you that's call "Pursuing God," that explains what it means to have a right relationship with God through Christ, and this book is available to you at no cost.  All you have to do is call 1-800-FLTODAY, and when someone answers the phone just say, I am interested in becoming a Christian, and I'd like a copy of that book, and it will be our privilege to send it out to you, and we trust God will use it to help you begin to establish an ongoing relationship with God through Christ. Again, the title of the book is "Pursuing God," and you can request it when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can also request a copy of the CD of our conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and when you contact us, we'll let you know how you can receive that CD.  You can either order it online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to send a copy or to send multiple copies to you, if you'd like. Again, the details of how you can order the CD are found online at FamilyLife.com or simply call 1-800-358-6329.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get the CD sent to you. I don't know how many times, Dennis, I have seen you turn in your Bible to Matthew 7 where Jesus concludes the Sermon on the Mount by talking about two different builders.  One builder who built his house on the rock and the other who built his house on the sand, and you have reminded us that when storms come in life, the kinds of storms like John and Donna Bishop have experienced, it's really a test of our foundation on what is our life and our marriage built? And each day we have an opportunity to strengthen the foundation of our marriage as we spend time with God together as a couple.  A few months ago, you and your wife Barbara wrote a book called "Moments With You," a daily devotional book for couples to encourage them to spend time praying together, looking at the Scriptures together and talking about their marriage relationship and about their family. And this week we are making that hardback book available to listeners who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.  We are listener-supported, so your donations are critical, they're vital, to keeping us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and when you make a donation either online or by phone this week, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry. If you're donating online, there will be a keycode box you'll come to on your donation form, and we just need you to type the word "You," y-o-u, in that keycode box, and we'll know to send a copy of the book, "Moments With You" out to you, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can make a donation right over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You."  Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support and for your partnership with us. Well, tomorrow we're going to meet another very remarkable couple.  A couple that has weathered a significant storm in their marriage.  We'll introduce you to Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Growing Up With WoodenDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                It was the 1920s in rural Indiana.  The Depression had not yet rocked America.  John Wooden was a young boy growing up on a farm, a high school student who loved basketball but who was about to meet the real love of his life. John:              I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know, but she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that.  Somehow, on the first day of classes my freshman year, we happened to be in the same class, and I knew right then, and we knew we were going to be married by the time I got out of high school, and August 8th it would have been 70 years since last August 8th, we would have been married. Bob:                Today you'll hear the first part of a conversation with a man who grew up to be one of the greatest coaches of all time as we talk about his faith, his family, and basketball.  Stay tuned as we talk with Coach John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  I can't help but smile as I listen to that excerpt from our interview with Coach John Wooden.  Of course, a lot of people are smiling right about now because this is the time of the year when March madness really takes over.  There is a lot of basketball ahead for us. Dennis:          Semis are this weekend, Final Four on Monday. Bob:                It's got to bring back lots of memories for you from your college days, doesn't it? Dennis:          Well, high school.  You know, going back to high school, Bob, those were my glory days.  My college days, I had several splinters. Bob:                Sitting on the bench, huh? Dennis:          I got the 15th uniform out of 15 in college.  I learned what it was like to be a substitute. Bob:                But your team almost went to the Final Four, didn't it? Dennis:          Well, not THE Final Four.  We almost went to the Junior College National Championships in Kansas, and I'm trying to remember where in Kansas. Bob:                But that's like the Final Four for Junior Colleges, right? Dennis:          Oh, yeah, absolutely.  In fact, I started that game – the last game of my college career, I started. Bob:                You poured in what – 15, 20 points? Dennis:          Now, wait a second – hold it, just one second, because they put me on an All American.  This is a true story.  The coach had watched me.  It was the only game I started in my college career, but my coach was so impressed with me never quitting and just staying out there and being tenacious – he started me.  And he put me on the quickest guy I've ever played against. Bob:                Man-to-man defense. Dennis:          Man-to-man defense, and did you know, when I left the game in the first half – I played about six or seven minutes – I had scored more points … Bob:                … than the All American, and the reason was this:  He was so fast and I was so slow, he would fake three or four times, and by the time I had taken his first fake, I was back to where he was really going.  And so I would post up underneath the bucket, and the guy didn't like to play defense, and I'd post up on him and score.  And so when I left the game, I had actually scored more points than him. Bob:                Now, some of our listeners are wondering what are you talking about Dennis' glory days of basketball on FamilyLife Today? Dennis:          Because we really don't have anything else to talk about.  No, that's not true.  We have a guest today – well, Bob, a dream of mine, and I sent you a note one day.  I said, "Bob, you know, one of the people I would really like in all the world to interview for FamilyLife Today and for our listeners and give them a glimpse of what a great human being he is, what many have described as the greatest coach of any sport of all time – Coach John Wooden."  Now, there are a number of our listeners who have no idea who John Wooden is, but a ton do.  Bob:                Coach Wooden coached the UCLA Bruins back in the '60s and the '70s. Dennis:          Well, actually, he started coaching in 1948.  That's what most people don't realize is.  He didn't build that national championship dominant team in the '60s and '70s.  He built it in obscurity beginning in 1948 throughout all the '50s and early '60s before he won his first national championship in 1964. Bob:                And after he won his first one, then he won his second and his third and his fourth and his fifth and his sixth.  Over a 12-year period he won 10 national championships. Dennis:          That's right, including winning 88 games in a row before they were knocked off at the Houston Astrodome, and I remember watching this game as a young man, where Lew Alcindor was playing against Elvin Hayes, and Houston beat them 71-69, and the Astrodome had, like, 49,000 people in it.  It was nationally televised.  It was an event, and there are few coaches that could claim the accomplishments that – in any sport – what he has accomplished.  But in basketball, he is the ultimate. Bob:                Well, we're going to hear a little bit about that game and about a lot of other games as we talk with Coach Wooden over the next few days.  A while back, you and I sat down with him in a studio in Los Angeles and just had a great opportunity to find out about the man who grew up to be "The Coach."  Here is part 1 of our conversation with Coach John Wooden: Dennis:          Tell us about life in the Wooden household when you were growing up as a young lad. John:              We had a small farm, and I learned a lot, I think, of things that helped me later on.  You had to work hard.  Dad felt there was time for play but always after the chores and the studies were done.  Dad would read to us every night from the Scriptures and poetry, and I think that created a love of poetry, which I've always had, liked to dabble in it a little bit.  My dad was a wonderful person.  I never heard him speak an ill word of anybody; never blamed anybody for anything; I never heard him use a word of profanity.  I think that his reading to us of a night later caused all four sons to get through college, though he had no financial means to help and there were no athletic scholarships.  All four sons graduated from college and all majored or minored in English, and all got advanced degrees, and I think Dad had a lot to do with that. Dennis:          Your dad had, as you've already mentioned, a profound impact on your life.  In fact, I was so looking forward to this interview with you, because I've quoted you about something that you said you carried around in your pocket.  Or – it, first of all, was carried around in your father's pocket, is that right?  And then you started carrying it around – it was your dad's creed – and then a poem by a pastor by the name of Henry Van Dyke. John:              My father gave to me, when I graduated from high school – excuse me – from grade school, from the eighth grade, he gave me a $2 bill – one of those large $2 bills and said, "Son, as long as you keep this you'll never be broke."  Then he also gave me a card, and on one side was the verse by Reverend Van Dyke that said, "Four things a man must learn to do if he would make his life more true; to think without confusion clearly; to love his fellow man sincerely; to act from honest motives purely; to trust in God and heaven securely." And on the other side was a seven-point creed, and the seven-point creed insisted, first of all, I think it was, "Be true to yourself," and I think we know if we're true to ourselves, we'll be true to others; and the second was "Help others."  There is no greater joy than a person can have than do something for someone else, especially when you do it with no thought of something in return. Another one was "Make friendship a fine art."  Work at it, don't take it for granted, work at making friends and making friendships flourish.  And then was one, I think, stood out to me a great deal was, "Make me today your masterpiece," and I tried to teach from that, as time went by, to my players and my English students, to just try and do the best you can each day.  Just make each day a masterpiece.  It's the only thing over which you have control.  You have no control over yesterday.  That will never change.  The only way you can affect tomorrow is today.  And then another one was to "Drink deeply from good books, especially the Bible;" and then was "Build a shelter against a rainy day," and he wasn't thinking about a physical shelter, he was thinking about a more lasting shelter.  When I think about that, I often think of when Socrates was unjustly imprisoned and was facing imminent death and the jailers who were mean people, they couldn't understand his serenity, and they said, "Why aren't you preparing for death?"  And his statement was, "I've been preparing for death all my life by the life I've led," and when I think of building a shelter against a rainy day, I think that's what Dad had in mind. Then the last was – the seventh was "Give thanks for your blessings and pray for guidance every day," and I've carried that with me in one form or another since those days, yes. Bob:                Those core convictions are so bedrock with you, that's a part of how your mom and dad raised you.  I think some people – we hear those things in the 21st century and some people go, "That sounds kind of old-fashioned, kind of corny," but that's so ingrained into who you are and who you've been, and you would say that's been a part of what has made you successful as a coach, right? John:              Well, I would hope so, but I know, too, if someone said, "I'm not what I ought to be and not what I want to be and not what I'm going to be, but I think those things have made me better than I would have been. Dennis:          Your dad read the Bible every day. John:              Yes, he did. Dennis:          How did you see him live out his faith in Christ every day, as a father?  What are the most indelible memories that you have, as a boy, watching your dad?  Because, undoubtedly, for him to have the influence he had on you as a man, his character has to resonate even today in your life. John:              Perhaps I wasn't realizing it at the time, but as I look back on my dad and the fact that he never spoke an ill word of anyone and just was a good person.  You don't realize it so much of the time, and many of the things – one of the things he said was never try to be better than someone else.  You have no control over that, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned – maybe these weren't his exact words, but things over which you have no control will adversely affect the things over which you have control.                         Now, years later, I remember that.  So somewhere in the hidden recesses of the mind, they stuck there, but it was things like that.  Mr. Lincoln said there is nothing stronger than gentleness, and my father was gentle man – working with animals and things.  I remember reading to us nights over the Scriptures, and I can still close my eyes and hear him reading "Hiawatha."  I can still hear "By the shores of Gitchigoomie, by the Shining Big Sea Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis," and so on, and things of that sort. Bob:                You didn't have any TV, any radio, so in the evening reading was the primary form of entertainment, wasn't it? John:              You're correct – by a coal oil lamp or candles. Bob:                Was your dad – as you think back on his life, you've talked about this tender side of him, and yet he was still whipping you when you did the wrong thing.  Was he a strict disciplinarian? John:              Well, I would say yes but not in a physical point of way.  I know – oh, I didn't want to get an unkind word from my dad, you know, a strong word.  I don't know, you just hated to hurt him in any way.  You just had that feeling about him. Dennis:          As you followed your dad, you undoubtedly watched how he'd love your mother.  Tell us about what you observed there and his commitment to her, as a woman and to his wife, over their years together. John:              Well, I think Dad's first concern was always for Mother.  He was looking out for her the best he could in every way but in a gentle way, in a gentle way.  I can picture them together – not at all the romantic way that you might think, but there was just something between them that was very, very special.  I don't know how to describe it. Dennis:          You said of yourself in your book, "They Call Me Coach," that as you moved into your high school years, you were shy, you were reserved, especially with the opposite sex. John:              Yes, I suppose, not being exposed much – no sisters – and I'm on the farm, and I suppose that's the reason, I don't know, but I was a little shy. Bob:                But here you were, this star basketball player on the high school team.  I mean, the girls, the cheerleaders, had to notice Johnny Wooden, didn't they?  Did they call you Johnny back then or was it John? John:              They called me lots of things. (laughter)                          You'd be surprised, the more they think it was John Bob. Bob:                John Bob. Dennis:          John Bob. John:              And Nellie and I had been married for many years when her sister came out here to California one time, and she said, "Don't you think you and John have been married long enough that you should quit calling him John Bob?" Bob:                But didn't the girls start to notice you as you were draining those jump shots on the basketball teams? Dennis:          Yeah, he kind of skirted your answer there.  I was watching him about that. John:              Well, I'll tell you, my freshman year, I was still living on the farm.  We didn't lose the farm until after my freshman year, and then we commuted from this little town of Center, and we lived about a half a mile out of that to Martinsville, and I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know that she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that, and that summer she brought the brother of her closest friend, who became very dear to me, to drive up.  Her brother had a car, and they drove up, and I was working in the field plowing corn with a team, and they parked in the road and motioned for me to come over, and I wouldn't go over.  I just kept on. Bob:                Why wouldn't you go over?  Here's this cute girl on the side of the road … Dennis:          … and you even liked her, too. John:              Oh, yeah, but I was dirty and somehow on the first day of classes, we happened to be in the same class.  She said, "Why didn't you come over to see us?"  I said, "Well, I was dirty and perspiring, and you would have just made fun of me."  And Nellie said – I can still see her, she said, "I would never make fun of you," and I knew right then … Dennis:          … there was a spark in her eyes. John:              And this is the only girl I ever really went with. Bob:                So by your junior year in high school, did you think, "This is the girl I'll marry?" John:              I did. Bob:                And you all started going together? John:              We did. Bob:                So you waited to marry until you got to college? John:              Yes, until I graduated.  I was glad to be married and graduated and got my first job, yes. Bob:                Coach, that's a long courtship – from your junior year in high school until you've graduated from college and got your first job.  That must have been hard. Dennis:          But, Bob, the rest of the story is, if Nellie hadn't put her foot down … Bob:                … he might still be dragging it on today? Dennis:          Well, there is the rest of the story here, because he really had promised her that he was going to marry her upon graduation, but then the war came along. John:              Yes.  Well, I had an appointment to West Point, and she said it would be six more years, and "I'm not going to wait.  I'm going to a convent."  So I didn't go to West Point. Bob:                She said she wouldn't wait on you? John:              That's right. Dennis:          And so what did you do? John:              Well, I finished at Purdue.  Dennis:          So you were married then? John:              We were married on August 8th.  It would have been 70 years just last August 8th that we would have been married.  We were married on August 8, 1932. Dennis:          You were, in those days, All American three years in a row, you were named the College Player of the Year your senior year, and as I was doing this research, I was thinking – I was talking to Bob.  I said, "I don't remember Coach Wooden being that tall, to be College Player of the Year.  He must have been 6'3" or 6'4".  On the sidelines you looked a little small around those big guys at UCLA.  But you were only 5'10" in those days. John:              But, you know, the teams weren't as big then, either, as they are now, too.  Our center at Purdue, Stretch Murphy, was 6'8", and he was a giant.  I only had the pleasure of playing with him one year.  I had the displeasure of playing against him one year when I was a sophomore in high school for the Indiana State Championship, he was the center on the opposing team, and he was good. Bob:                Did you just have what it takes as an athlete?  Were you just a naturally gifted – something about the way God made you that you turned out to be a good basketball player?  Or did you work really hard to be a good ball player? John:              Well, I hope I did the latter, but He provided the former.  I had natural quickness, and I couldn't do much about my height, but I could do something about my condition, and I always wanted to be in the best possible condition and hoped that would be better than others, hoped others wouldn't work as hard at it as I did do that, and I think I carried that throughout, and I think that helped.  And I think it probably come from my earlier grade school days on the farm of working hard, and I like to feel that no one is going to be in better condition, then I have no control over it.  I should have control over myself. Bob:                Well, we've been listening to a conversation with Coach John Wooden – actually, part 1 of a conversation that we're going to hear the remainder of over the next couple of days. Dennis:          What a sweet time, huh? Bob:                It was a great time. Dennis:          Bob, you and I just had a great time.  I'd look over at you occasionally, and you'd be sitting there grinning, and I'd be grinning, and the reason is, is when we interviewed Coach, he was 91 years old.  He's now at his 92nd birthday, and I'm told that he knows where 180 of his players are – his past players.  He's kept in touch with them.  I heard about a coach the other day whose players never go back to visit him – none of them.  It's common knowledge that his players don't want to have anything to do with him, and I think about Coach Wooden and the wisdom that he passed on, and it reminds me, really, of Proverbs, chapter 4, where a father is imploring and exhorting a son to "Listen, my son, and acquire wisdom."   And I'll tell you, just hanging with the Coach for the interview we did over an hour and a half, we're not going to be able to air all of it here on the broadcast over the next couple of days, but just hanging with him, you thought, "What would it have been like to have played for a coach like that?"  And then it hit me, you know, that's what our children need to be expressing about us as parents.  You know, we learned, we sat under the greatest mom, the greatest dad, the greatest coach, the greatest teacher the world has ever known.  Yeah, they're going to be biased, but the idea is that we, as parents, we're impacting the next generation just like Coach Wooden did. Bob:                That's right.  You mentioned the entire interview going more than an hour and a half long.  We've actually taken the complete interview and put it on two CDs, and I got some early copies of these CDs, and I'll tell you what I found – you can pass these out to lots of folks.  You can pass them out to the high school coach at the high school where your kids go. Dennis:          Oh, let me tell you something, I've been doing this, and I've had friends doing this – any coach of any sport – Laura's volleyball coach – I gave her a copy of this, and she grabbed hold of it like it was gold, and the reason is it is gold.  Bob:                It's thoughts on life from a great coach but it's also thoughts on faith and character and what really matters.  You can use this as a way to begin a dialog and to open doors evangelistically with fans of the game, with coaches, with players, with friends.  We have the two-CD set that features the entire – I think it's about an hour-and-45-minute-long conversation with Coach John Wooden.                          It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request as many copies as you want. Dennis:          It even looks like a basketball on one side and a net on the other. Bob:                1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  You can also order online at FamilyLife.com.  Ask for the two-CD set of our conversation with Coach John Wooden when you contact us, and there's a second resource we want to mention to you as well – Coach Wooden has put together a course that is designed to teach his principles of success in business, in athletics, in school.  We have a videocassette where Coach lays out the Pyramid of Success that he put together, and we have the Pyramid on our website at FamilyLife.com, but we also have it on a mousepad that you can have by your computer just to review the character qualities that go into success in any endeavor.  Along with the video and the mousepad, we've got a wallet card. Dennis:          Not just any wallet card. Bob:                No, it's a laminated … Dennis:          … a laminated … Bob:                … that's right, and it has some of the Coach's philosophy on it – never lie, never cheat, never steal, don't whine, don't complain, don't make excuses – pretty simple stuff but profound nonetheless.                           Ask for these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and you can see some of the resources there, and you can order online as well.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com.                          When you do get in touch with us, someone is likely to ask if you'd like to help with a donation to FamilyLife Today, and we hope when they ask, if you are able, you'll say yes and be able to add a donation to the work of this ministry.  We're a nonprofit organization, and we depend on those contributions to keep doing what we're doing.  So if you can't help with a donation, you can donate online at FamilyLife.com.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can write a check and mail it to us at FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.                          Well, tomorrow we're going to find out how the UCLA dynasty almost never happened and how it might have been the Minnesota dynasty if it hadn't been for a snowstorm. Dennis:          Yeah, this is a great story about lost opportunity. Bob:                We'll hear that tomorrow as we continue our conversation with Coach John Wooden.  I hope you can be with us for that.                           I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com