Podcast appearances and mentions of nick yes

Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. Listen to this episode where we'll explore why it's so important for couples to have detailed conversations about their finances and retirement futures. We'll cover exactly what you need to discuss, and how to handle any disagreements.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Mark: Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. So check into this episode where we explore why it's important for couples to have detailed conversations about not only their finance, but their retirement futures and their dreams, this week on Retirement Planning, Redefined.   What's going on? Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John, Nick, and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And we're going to go to couples therapy this week here on the podcast a little bit, or maybe we'll make it more manly, I guess, and call it a team sport.   However you want to look at it, you want to be on the same page with your spouse, with your loved one when it comes to retirement. I wanted to talk a little bit about that this week, guys, to see how many people generally are on the same page by the time they sit down with professionals like yourselves, financial professionals, or if it's happening a lot in real time, right in front of you. So we'll get into it this week.   What's going on, John? How are you bud?   John: Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?   Mark: Doing pretty good, hanging in there. Looking forward to chatting about this a little bit.   Nick, I hope you're well.   Nick: All good.   Mark: All good as usual. Well, that's very good.   Nick: Good start to the season for the bills, so I'm happy.   Mark: All right, well there you go.   Nick: It's early. It's early, but...   Mark: My lions, my lions are all right for right now. We'll see. I don't have a lot of hope. 40 years doesn't bode well when you have one good season in 40 years, but we'll see.   Nick: I get it, [inaudible 00:01:33].   Mark: All right, so let's dive into this couple stuff here. Why is it important for couples to work together on their retirement plan? I mean, you come in, somebody sits down for the first time with you guys for a consultation, and they're just not even remotely on the same page. That's got to be a bit more problematic, yeah?   Nick: Yeah. Not being remotely on the same page is tricky. I would almost say we probably, at least for John and I, we probably don't run into it too much where they're completely on separate pages.   Mark: Well, that's good.   Nick: I would say that there tend to be different ways that they think about money and kind of communicate about money. To be honest, that's one of the reasons that I would say that John and I like working together as a team with clients is because oftentimes one of us will kind of pick up more on the vibe that one of the people in the relationship is on, and then vice versa the other way around.   And so I'd say it's pretty rare that people in a couple tend to think about finances the same way. Even though they might end up having similar goals on the backside, they kind of attack it a little bit differently. And really it's, I think we joke sometimes, I think at this point we're 80% therapist, 20% financial advisors.   Mark: Right.   Nick: And really it's just trying to get people closer to the same page, and realizing that a lot of the things that they're talking about are pretty similar and they're just going about different ways to attack that.   Mark: Well, John, to expand on that, when somebody sits down for the first time, do you guys, if they haven't really discussed some of those big issues, is it important that they maybe try to knock some of that out before they come in to see an advisor? Or does it not really matter as long as it's getting done?   John: Yeah, I don't think it really matters. I think sometimes they're not even really sure exactly what to be knocking out prior. So to delay meeting with someone just to try to figure out, "Hey, are we on the same page?", I don't think makes sense. I think what tends to happen in our meetings is we'll ask some questions that kind of get them thinking a little differently. Like, "Oh, I didn't think about that." And ultimately, I think what we do when we do our planning, they tend to have some things come out and then they tend to kind of understand where the other one's coming from and that kind of lines up.   Mark: Yeah. Well, I mean, I talk to advisors all across the country and I certainly hear stories often about people saying, one person will say something and the spouse will go, "Since when? I never heard of that."   Nick: It definitely happens sometimes for sure. I would say almost that tends to be more on the lifestyle side of things.   Mark: Okay, all right.   Nick: Versus almost purely financial.   Mark: Like "I want to go scuba diving in every major ocean or something." And the other one's like, "What?"   Nick: Yeah, when the husband pulls, "I want to drive across country in the RV" card, that's where I've seen a lot of the sideway looks where... My parents are a good example, it's like my dad doesn't like to drive to Publix, but then he said he wanted to drive-   Mark: Across the nation.   Nick: ... In an RV, because that's going to be more relaxing. And I remind him that a thousand miles is a lot worse than five. So there's things like that absolutely. How to spend that time, or even just the extra time together. I've almost seen it where it tends to be a little bit of a smoother process for couples when one person retires first, and maybe there's a year or two lag, where they kind of have a little bit of a staggering on spending an extra 50 hours a week together, which can be a little bit of a shock.   Mark: Sure, yeah, it's a totally different animal. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, a totally different ballgame. So I would say from at least my experience with clients, it tends to be more in the lifestyle side of things. What I've seen most often with couples are it's rare that it's a 50/50 input on finances.   A lot of times I'll see it where one person might be a little bit more strategic on expenses, and then the other one might be a little bit more focused on the actual investments, things like that. But they end up being kind of having the same goal or outlook, but the lifestyle and how they're going to spend their time in retirement and how much they're willing to spend to do those sorts of things tends to be a little bit different.   Mark: All right, John, well let me throw this one your way. So my wife and I are not usually on the same page when it comes to certain different things in a relationship, like most couples. And when it comes to risk, we are completely different.   So how can couples navigate if they are in different places risk-wise? Because let's be honest, I mean the statistics are what they are. Typically, us fellas tend to want to take a little bit more risk, and a lot of times the ladies tend to want to play it a little safer. Not always, but that's kind of the average.   So how do you guys handle that and what's some advice there?   John: So we'll do risk tolerances for each client when that comes up. And we we'll find that someone, again, might be more aggressive than the other, so maybe their accounts are invested, maybe a moderate where someone else's, the spouse might be invested conservative. So that, having separate accounts makes that a little bit easier.   It becomes more difficult when it's the, a joint account. And what we'll do at that standpoint is we kind of go back to the plan. So a lot of the times it's what type of rate of return are we trying to achieve from the planning standpoint. We kind of have conversations, and we'll try to blend the two of them together.   I'd say for the most part, I don't want to speak for Nick, but he could jump in, have never really had this come up as an issue. It's kind of like, "Hey, this is how you want to do it. This is how this other person wants to do it." And for the most part, the spouses are okay with it as long as they're achieving their goals.   Mark: Interesting.   Nick: For the clients that tend to be, for the ones that have a little bit more of that risk appetite, we found through conversation that they have the risk appetite when things are good.   Mark: Sure. Everybody likes it when it's up, right?   Nick: Yeah, for sure. And not necessarily when things are bad. And so we're big fans of almost having, for lack of a better term, like a petty cash drawer or just kind of a smaller investment account that will carve out. So when there are clients that want to have that higher risk appetite, want to take opportunities to really kind of get some big upside.   Mark: So that's your speculative casino type money, right?   Nick: Yep.   Mark: If you will.   Nick: Yup, yup, exactly. And really too, because I would say the majority of our clients are pretty close to retirement or in retirement, they tend to, at least in our experience, be a little bit over that phase with any sort of larger amounts of money. Oftentimes they come to us and they're like, "All right, we had our fun and we're ready to be a little bit more in line on the risk side of things with the investment decisions that we're making." And oftentimes when we have that conversation of, "Hey, if you get an itch, let's have this off to the side and it'll help you make better decisions with the rest of the money." That tends to be kind of a winner for everybody.   John: No, I was going to say, yeah, that's kind of what we reference sometimes as a cave, this is kind of your play account where you want to buy some individual stocks and things like that, where the fluctuation won't really make a big impact overall on your plan. So as Nick mentioned, that kind of satisfies some of the very aggressive clients.   Mark: Okay. Well, so you mentioned the fact a second ago that a lot of your clients tend to be nearing or into retirement, and with a different demographic comes different feelings and mindsets about money.   So with that in mind, we tend to find that, which is really weird if you think about it this way, a lot of times you tend to find that in couples, going through the life, building of the life, raising the children, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, typically the wife tends to budget the money, handle the money, so on and so forth. She's doing all that stuff in the house. But when it comes to retirement, it tends to seem like us guys tend to take the lead there.   Is it okay for one person to handle all the financial matters? Or do you guys really prefer that both people have a good understanding, even if it's not your bag, do you still prefer them to have a general, I don't know, 10,000 foot view of what's going on?   Nick: Yes. I would say too, more and more that, again, from our experience, and maybe it's our clientele where you've got a lot of households that are both people work, both have retirement accounts, and although they may make some differences from the perspective of risk in their portfolios and stuff like that, it tends to be a collaborative effort. Again, I would say we have, anytime we do planning, we have clients fill out an expense worksheet. It's rare that they both fill it out. It's usually one of the two that are filling out the expense worksheet.   And so it does tend to get kind of broken up a little bit from who focuses on what. But it's definitely important that they're both on the same page and have a good grasp and an understanding. And I would say too is the easiest example of that, and the people that work with us kind of know this is there's one report that we go over with clients, it's like a cashflow. It's in detail, wall of numbers, lots of columns, can be kind of intense. And then there's an area called the decision center, which takes all those columns and it puts it into kind of a graph format and it's more interactive.   And I think that's kind of almost the best illustration of the different sides of the brain where one person in the couple sometimes likes the details and likes the column report and they like to, because they can go in on their client side of the portal and go through that and re-review it. And the other one is, "Hey, let's zoom out. Give me the broader picture. Are we good? Are we not good? Give me an idea of a couple of decisions that we need to make moving forward and let's go from there."   Mark: And there's no right or wrong to either one, it's just what is your personal appetite? But I think neither, like if both of you don't have a good understanding, John, that's a recipe for trouble later on too.   John: Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. It's important for both to at least have an idea of what's happening and working as a team, whether one takes a lead and one takes a backseat, we encourage everyone to have a general understanding. Because this past year has been interesting where I've had some clients have some health issues, pass away. And you got to make sure that both pistons are aware of what's happening because you don't want that situation where it's like, "Hey, I don't know where anything is. What do I do?" So [inaudible 00:11:43].   Mark: That's exactly the point, right? Yeah, that's the worst case scenario. And it often, it happens more times than people realize. So you both want to have a decent understanding, even if it's not your thing. And again, no gender roles there. It tends to be the case, but I mean, my wife is way smarter than I am, and she actually deals with, she's very analytical and deals with money and numbers all the time for work. And it's one of those things where when it comes to our retirement, she's like, "I don't want to deal with it. So you deal with it."   And it could just be as simple as, "I deal with numbers all the time, I don't want to deal with it yet another way." So no matter what it is, you find a way to make it work, but not having a decent understanding of what you have, and why you have it and who to turn to in the event of a catastrophe, is a recipe for disaster. So obviously if you're working with a financial professional and a team like the guys at PFG Private Wealth, then at least you also have that resource to turn to when something does happen like John just mentioned.   So one final question here, I'll let you both kind of jump in and chime in a little bit here. What final piece of advice would you give to couples who are maybe just beginning their retirement planning journey, when it comes to making sure that they both are feeling comfortable?   Nick: I think it depends on what phase they are in life, but in general, I think it's hard to screw it up long-term, if you're saving money. So even if you are very conservatively saving the money and you're not getting much return on your money, that kind of instills an ingrained habit of saving money and being used to living on the rest. That will lead you to better habits and better outcomes.   You can always take the next step in, whether it's working with an advisor, whether it's doing research by yourself and then making better and smarter decisions on how you invest that money that you saved. That tends to be kind of the easier part. But the behavior of saving that money first and then going from there, is the number one thing, I think that's important.   Mark: Okay. That's his advice there. What do you about you, John, what do you think?   John: Yeah, it's really similar. You can never go wrong saving. And it's really just kind of the words that just get started. Just get started saving, just get started planning, get started with any of it. Whether you have kids, you want to make sure that estate documents are in place, insurances are in place.   So depending on what phase, it's just a matter of getting started with the overall planning, and saving is definitely where you want to be the forefront. Because like Nick said, you can't go wrong. You're never going to be mad looking back saying, "Man, I saved way too much for retirement."   Mark: Right, exactly. Taking the forward steps and doing something to quote the rush song, right? If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. So don't make that choice to do nothing. Do something for yourself and your future self and get started today. Make sure that you are planning for retirement and having conversations with your loved ones so that you guys are on the same page.   And of course, as always, if you need some help, make sure that you get onto the calendar with qualified professionals like the team at PFG Private Wealth. You can find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com to get yourself some time on the calendar to sit down with John and Nick and get started today.   This has been Retirement Planning, Redefined. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on whatever major podcasting platform app you like to use. They're on all of them. So you can just type in Retirement Planning, Redefined in the search box, or just go to pfgprivatewealth.com.   We'll sign off for this week. For John and Nick, I'm your host Mark, and we'll catch you next time.

In this episode, we'll explore many of the expenses in your life that might drastically change (one way or another) in retirement. We'll break those expenses down further to see which ones are the top priorities and analyze some of the other factors that impact your cash flow in retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Welcome back to the podcast. It's Retirement Planning-Redefined, with John and Nick here with me to talk investing, finance, retirement, and mastering retirement cashflow, part one, is going to be the topic today. We're understanding just changing expenses. We're going to break this into really a two-parter here, obviously, by calling it part one. And we'll do a little more focus on some of the other things on the next session. But for today, I want to explore some of the expenses in life and how they just change as we're moving some things ... as we're moving from working into retirement. And things you guys see with your clients and how you work through that process for them. So that's the topic today. Let's get into it. John, first of all, how are you doing, buddy?   John: I'm doing all right. Getting ready for the summertime here.   Marc: If it happens. I don't know what's going on in the south. I'm in North Carolina, and we've had one 90 degree day, and it's almost July. Totally unusual for us, so it's very, very weird.   Nick: Oh, it's hot here.   Marc: Yeah. It's like two states seem to be in a weird spot. I don't know what's going on with the middle of the south here. It's very strange this year. But Nick, I heard you chime in. How are you, my friend?   Nick: Doing pretty good.   Marc: Yeah. So you guys are sweltering, is that what you're saying?   Nick: It's definitely hot, yeah.   Marc: Well, kick a little this way because I don't know what's going on. It should be warmer here than it has been. So, very weird.   Nick: Well, I'll trade.   Marc: Okay. All right. Yeah. Like today, it's ... well, we're getting a ton of rain. Today, taping this podcast, it's 72 for the high, and tonight's overnight low is 58. That doesn't happen usually in North Carolina in late July or late June.   Nick: Yeah. That is pretty surprising. That's cool for North Carolina.   Marc: Very, very weird. So I don't know, Mother Nature is off her meds, I guess. But what can you do? So let's get into this conversation, guys, about changing cash flow, before I keep going down that tangent. I've got a few parts here I want to run through. What are some of the expenses that might drastically change one way or the other, either to saving us money or to costing us more money? Whichever way you guys want to take this, whatever you've seen with your clients. But let's start it off with housing. I think housing is probably the number one expense in retirement. Correct me if I'm wrong there, but what do you think?   Nick: Yeah. I would say for a lot of people that maintain a mortgage past retirement, it's definitely a significant monthly expense. One thing that we are seeing here with the tick up in interest rates over the last 12 months, we had had conversations with multiple clients from 2018 through 2021 about taking advantage of low interest rates and keeping their mortgage and that sort of thing. And for a lot of people, that makes them feel uncomfortable. But to a person, everyone that we've talked to that has done that, now that rates are where they are, they've been pretty happy about that decision and being able to take advantage and lock in those low rates. But for those people that just naturally, with the schedule mortgage that they had, and ended up paying off the mortgage by the time they retired, that drop in expenses is usually a big help. I would say one thing that jumps out that's a reminder that we use for people is ... especially because the homeowner's insurance market here has now gone completely insane. Taxes and insurance don't go away. So I can't tell you how many times we've had a conversation where maybe somebody had a mortgage that was $3,000 a month, and they're like, well, once I retire, that 3,000 a month is going to go away. And we point out, well, hey, about half of that is. The rest of it's for taxes and insurance. So sometimes that drop in expense isn't quite as much as they thought it was going to be.   Marc: Gotcha. Yeah. And it's easy to do, even with downsizing, because the market's been high. So it's not always just lowering things just to go to that downsizing piece. John, what's your thoughts there?   John: Yeah, I would say the downsizing is a big part of it. Not only if you downsize, you might be able to get some equity out of your house there. So if you downsize, buy a two or $300,000 house, you get some cash that you could do something with. But then you start looking at smaller house, less homeowners insurance, less maintenance costs, things like that, it could really be a pretty significant savings. Especially, as Nick mentioned here, with homeowners insurance. I think mine went up like 60 or 70% in a year, which was ... ... I've heard a lot of people. At first, I thought it was just me. And then I talked to some clients, friends, family, and it seemed across the board that it just shot up.   Marc: That's hefty.   Nick: Yeah, there's a lot people that are falling between five and $10,000 a year now. For homeowners insurance down here, it's gone just wild.   Marc: Well, I imagine the big hurricane added a lot to that, right? That's probably part of it. From last year.   Nick: Yeah, yeah.   Marc: Yeah, for sure. Insurance companies are like, we got to recoup some money. How are we going to do that? 60% hikes. All right, no more work stuff. Category two on the changing in expenses. I think we probably assume for the most part that no more work stuff means we're going to save a little bit of money.   John: Yeah. So this is something that when we do planning, we definitely hit on. We have different categories of current expenses and then retirement expenses, and then we actually go one further and we're looking at advanced age expenses. But this is one where you're not commuting anymore, or at least to work. So depending on what your commute was, you could be saving quite a bit on gas, car maintenance expenses, things like that. And then the big one, I know when Nick and I worked in West Shore, was the lunch expense. Where it's like every time for lunch it's like, all right, where are we going? A good excuse to get out of the office and just get a change of scenery, you find you're going out to lunch every day. That does tend to add up quite a bit.   Marc: Oh, yeah. You can spend some dough that way, for sure. So I think in this category, we feel like ... and this one I think maybe drives a lot of people feeling like, oh, I'm going to spend less money in retirement. Right, Nick? I mean, this is one of those things. Well, I'm not doing all those things now, so I'm going to be saving money. But you're also doing more stuff because you don't have to go to work, so you may not save as much as you think.   Nick: Yeah. I would also say too, that this post-COVID work from home shift has prepared a lot more people to have a better idea of the expenses that have changed. We do have a fair amount of clients that used to commute, and no longer do. And so they've gotten a peek into what that looks like. And people are creatures of habit. Inevitably, they develop new things that they do, and usually there's other expenses that replace previous ones, but-   Marc: There's always something, right?   Nick: Yeah. But oftentimes, there are reasonable reductions in some of those work-related expenses.   Marc: Okay. Let's go to healthcare. This one here, this one to me seems like this is not going to be going into the positive. This is not going to be putting money back in our pocket. More than likely, this is going to cost us more.   Nick: Yeah. I mean, for a big chunk of people, especially if they work at a company that has pretty good health benefits, and maybe they haven't had their kids on their plan for a while, so it's just them and a spouse or them solo. Oftentimes, the shift to what we budget for post-age 65 Medicare-related premiums, oftentimes it goes up for people. So we typically budget about $4,000 a year, and we have a more aggressive inflation number that we use on that. Oftentimes, people come in less than that, especially with a high deductible plan, those sorts of things. I just had this conversation the other day with someone, where they were going to have a pretty substantial jump. And they had worked for the same company for a long time, didn't realize-   Marc: You mean a jump in the premiums?   Nick: Yes. Yep. They had worked for the same company for a long time. It was big company and had really good health benefits, and premiums were going to go up. So it can be a little surprising that way. If it's somebody that's shifting more from the perspective of, kids recently got off their plan and they're cutting back on ... maybe went from a regular health plan to a high deductible, those sorts of things. It can be a drop. But honestly, I see it more neutral or go up than I see it go down.   Marc: Yeah, definitely. John, taxes, let me hit you with this one. This is a big misnomer that's been around for years. That when we get to retirement, our taxes are just generally lower because we're not getting a paycheck, we're not making as much. But more times than not, eight out of 10 times people are not in a lower tax bracket.   John: No. Typically, they tend to be in the same, if not, maybe a little bit lower. Because what you're really trying to do when you do planning is you want to keep the person's income where it was while they were working.   Marc: Right. You're trying to fill in the ... you're shortening the short shortfall. You're pulling from our assets to make up the shortfall based on Social Security or if you have a pension or whatever those kinds of things are. So you're trying to keep the numbers basically the same, correct?   John: Exactly, yeah. So we are trying to keep the numbers the same. And we find a lot of people ... I would say we find the majority of people have most of their money in pre-tax accounts. So what you'll find is when you're pulling out of the pre-tax accounts, you're paying taxes on it. So this is really important when it comes to planning, where you ... and we harp on this constantly. It's a matter of setting yourself up to adjust. So maybe if you have some tax-free money, some after-tax dollars in some other accounts, you can really try to eliminate ... or not eliminate. But try to lower what your taxes are going into retirement. And I'll say one thing that happens quite often with clients, and this is only maybe a year or two that we see in retirement, is they just have a couple of years of just massive expenses where ... we just had someone that's purchasing a second home and they need to pull out of their retirement account. And all of a sudden, it's like in that given year, that's going to be a big tax hit. Or it's a health expense. Or I've had other ones where they want to do a remodel on their house and it's like, well, I got to pull money out of my account. And everything is pre-taxed, so they really get ... we see a significant increase in their taxes in those years.   Marc: Yeah. And that's why we want to get tax efficient, if we can. And maybe that's worth looking at, trying to maybe move some money so we don't have that tax time bomb sitting there waiting on us. Some different things. And speaking of actually that, Nick, let's go to the next one here because you can chime in, it fits well with that. Is one of the biggest things we're doing is pumping money, hopefully, especially the last 10 years of working, into our retirement account. Maybe that 401K that John was just talking about. And therefore we're growing those dollars. And that is an expense that goes away once we stop working, we're no longer feeding that.   Nick: Yeah. That deferral is usually the lowest hanging fruit of expenses or cash flow going down.   Marc: Money back in our pocket, kind of thing, right?   Nick: Yeah, exactly. That outflow is usually the biggest drop, especially if it's ... if you're talking a couple that is essentially, maybe they're both maxing out or pretty close to maxing out, they're saving around 25,000. That's $50,000 a year. Granted, that's the money that they're used to living on anyways.   Marc: Yeah. Because we weren't seeing that. When we're working, it's going straight to the paycheck ... or straight to the 401, for example. But now that we're not working, we also don't have the paycheck. So to me, is it truly a savings or is it a wash, because you weren't seeing it before either? You know what I mean?   Nick: Yeah. I think for a lot of people it's a wash. Realistically, in the day-to-day setting and from a lifestyle perspective, it tends to be a bit of a wash.   Marc: Okay. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, it's more of an on-paper reduction, more than anything.   Marc: Makes sense.   Nick: And in theory, when you start ... if you want to nitpick a little bit. The money that you defer into those plans, you still pay payroll taxes on it. So there's a little bit of a savings there. So that's something that can factor in. And one of the changes that fits in with both the tax and retirement things is a lot of times at that point in time, they're no longer claiming kids. Maybe the mortgage is paid off. So from a deduction perspective, there's also a change as well from the standpoint of what they're able to deduct versus what they can deduct in retirement.   Marc: Okay. And so what we're doing is we're talking about these categories here on understanding how our expenses are going to change, whether it's to the plus or to the minus. And then we'll talk a little bit more later on about how that's going to affect us in our overall expenses and some things to cover in ways to be more efficient in that. So let's continue on with a couple more categories here and then we'll wrap it up for this podcast. So we went through housing, work stuff, healthcare, taxes, the retirement savings account when we're no longer feeding the 401 animal. John, so you mentioned earlier travel and leisure, when you were talking about there's different things we're going to spend money on. So if every Saturday is the day I spend the most money, well, guess what retirement is?   John: Every day seems like it's a Saturday.   Marc: It's a bunch of Saturdays, right?   John: Yep.   Marc: It's Groundhog Day.   John: The more time you have, you find yourself trying to fill the gap of what to do. And we see a lot of people that are, if they're like golfing, they tend to be golfing a little bit more. Or fishing or whatever it might be. I'll see-   Marc: But that's the point, right? That's the point of retirement. It's what we're striving for. But I think the scary part is, is if we haven't budgeted for how much we're ... the activity. That's when we can maybe shortfall ourselves.   John: Exactly. Yeah. That's where it's important where you're doing a cashflow analysis for retirement. Like I said, we typically look at retirement expenses. We'll look at what the person does for hobbies and try to estimate, okay, this is what we can expect. And you always want to go over the amount, you never want to go under.   Marc: I was going to ask you that. Yeah. You want to-   John: Yeah, you always want to go over, because-   Marc: ... inflate it a little bit.   John: Yeah, exactly. I'll tell you this ... and my wife doesn't listen to the podcast. When she's at home more, I start to notice my Amazon bill goes up and packages end up at the door. So when there's a lot more downtime, you tend to say, okay, what's out there? Oh, let me go run to the store. Let me go do this real quick. And all those things add up to just added expenses, which fine-   Marc: Yeah. Well, sitting on the computer or the phone, you're just like, I'm bored, I'm not doing anything. Next thing you know, you're on some sort of shopping site because you're like, I was thinking about this or that, or a new set of golf clubs. Right, it's easy to do.   John: Home projects because Pinterest is giving you all these different ideas that you should be doing with your home. So yeah, all those things are up.   Nick: All right, John. This is not a therapy session.   Marc: No, but I mean he's right, though. I mean, it totally ... and people do that.   John: So Marc, that's coming from the single guy right now.   Marc: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. And you mentioned, you were talking about projects, DIY projects or Pinterest. We're right in the middle of rebuilding ... I'm building a billiards room here next to my office for the pool table. And it's just, scope-creep has taken over. It's like, oh, I can ... I factored in the budget. I'm like, I could do it for this amount of money. And I'm way over budget. And that's, again, if you're retired ... I'm still working. But if I was retired, that could be a real problem. If I let scope-creep get in there and I'm spending 25% more than I budgeted for this project, that could be an issue. So you want to make sure that you are inflating it, to your point. Puff those numbers up a little bit, just to be on the safe side.   Nick: Oh yeah, big time. I don't think I've seen anybody come in under budget on anything in the last three years.   Marc: Yeah. And that's with professionals, let alone doing it yourself, right?   Nick: For sure.   Marc: Okay. So that's travel and leisure. So the last one here, last category, insurance. Many people, guys, walk into retirement saying, well, I don't need insurance anymore. That's also that old standard, as far as the financial services world. Well, who needs ... why do you need insurance if your kids are grown and you don't have to replace your income because you're not worried about sending them to school. Or all that kind of stuff that you guys have heard probably a million times.   Nick: Yeah. So we'll see ... one of the most common insurances that go away, whether it's at retirement or early in retirement, is life insurance. So we obviously emphasize the fact that a death early on in retirement is the bigger risk, especially if there's outstanding debt, those sorts of things, versus later on in retirement. So sometimes we'll have people that, maybe they've got three to five years left on their term policy and the premiums aren't prohibitive. And we'll just them keep the coverage because there's still a mortgage, or just that additional money if something were to happen would be a big boost to the surviving spouse. But disability definitely goes away because disability insurance, by definition ensures your ability to work. So if you're not working, then you're not insuring anything. So that's something that drops. And then some of these supplemental policies that maybe were provided by the employer, aren't portable and you can't take them with you anyway. So some of those things will drop off. So that's definitely something that can be adjusted and adapted to reduce some of the costs.   Marc: Well, I think for every situation, insurance is one of those questions, John, that goes either way. Some people may not, when you guys are developing and looking through the plan, maybe insurance isn't needed. But then again, maybe it is. Or maybe they're using an insurance policy for the cash value policy side of things or whatever. So this one is one I think could go either direction.   John: It definitely could go either way, it really depends on the individual. And like we were just talking about here, each person, whatever is important to them will dictate whether your insurance is going to be going up or down. That's really what it comes down to is, each individual, what they value and what they want to protect with insurance and what they're ... oh, okay. I'm okay without it.   Marc: Well, and that's a good way to think about what we're going to get into for the next podcast, is really assessing must-haves, nice-to-haves, things of that nature. And then how other aspects in the financial services world could affect those categories we just ran down. So we're going to wrap it up this week. So again, these are just the expenses categories, and some major ones here to think about how they may change to the plus or to the minus with our cash flow in retirement. And we'll be back next week with the second half of this conversation. So do yourself a favor, if you haven't done so yet. Reach out to the team if you don't have a strategy or a plan in place, and get started with a consultation and a conversation for yourself. You can find the guys at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com, where you can get started today on a strategy for yourself. Reach out to John and Nick there. And guys, thanks for hanging out. I'll see you next week ... well, in two weeks on the podcast. Nick, have a good one.   Nick: See you.   Marc: All right, John. Thanks, buddy.   John: Sure.   Marc: And I'll catch you later. We'll see you guys here on retirement Planning-Redefined, with John and Nick.

On this episode, we will continue our conversation on what expenses may change when you enter into retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Back here for another episode of the podcast with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. On Retirement Planning Redefined, we're going to get back into our conversation from the prior episode about cashflow. We went through some categories, housing, work stuff, healthcare, taxes, so on and so forth, on how those expenses will change either to the plus or the minus, depending on our setup. Well, this is the time to talk about the setup. So as we are assessing our retirement expenses, we'll break these down into a couple of categories. So we're going to talk about those with the guys. John, welcome in buddy. How you doing this week? John: Hey, I'm doing all right. How are you? Mark: Hanging in there. Doing pretty well. How about you, Nick? Nick: Pretty good. Staying busy. Mark: Staying busy and enjoying. So we're taping this before the fourth, but we're dropping this after the fourth, so hopefully you guys had a good fourth? Nick, you probably went up and saw family, yeah? Nick: Heading up north to just, yeah, extended family and friends. That fourth week makes it an easier week to get away because everyone's doing stuff anyways. Mark: Yeah, yeah. It's always funny when we have the holidays and we're kind of taping the podcast ahead of time because then drop it because we're not around, so sometimes I get confused on my dates. So yeah, again, we're talking about this before the fourth about what we'll probably will be doing on the fourth. So John, are you on grill duty? Because I know I am. I'm stuck on it. John: No, no. My brother's forcing me to have a cookout at my house, so I told him if I'm providing the house, he's the one on grill duty. Mark: Okay, that'll work.   John: He's visiting from Boston, so he's excited because my other brother's down here and my sister, cousin, and actually the best man in his wedding is married to my sister, so he decided to come down.   Mark: So Marketing 101. So the second you said Boston, all I hear is these Sam Adams commercials right now, "Your cousin from Boston." Every freaking time I hear Boston, that's the first thing I think of. Or Sam Adams beer, I go right there. All through the hockey playoffs and NBA playoffs, I kept seeing those commercials so it's embedded in my brain. But hey, that's the point of marketing, right, is to be those little earworms, so you go out and buy whatever it is that you go out and buy. And speaking of that, that's my transition into the must haves versus the nice to haves. So if we're talking about those accounts, those different categories that we went through on the prior episode, guys, how do those things now play into for our cashflow? Again, cashflow is the conversation wraparound, it's the wrapper of this whole endeavor. We need to break this down. And do you guys do this with clients? Is it something you encourage them to do, because everybody's individual needs and wants are going to be a little bit differently, but do you break things up in the must-haves versus the nice to haves? Nick: I would say to a certain extent, we do. We kind of list basic expenses and discretionary expenses. Mark: So give us some musts. What's the musts? Nick: So obviously housing, healthcare, food and groceries, some form of transportation, whether it's one vehicle, two vehicles. Getting rid of debt. Those are all things that are obviously needs. [inaudible 00:03:02] Mark: Life essentials, right? Nick: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Depending upon the people, some things are discretionary. I would say most of the people that we work for can't afford to have some sort of traveling in retirement. Mark: Yeah, so is two trips a year or is it five trips a year? That's kinds how it starts to change? Nick: Yeah, exactly. Or even a big trip every X amount of years. So like a baseline travel budget of X, and then let's add one of the things that we commonly do is, let's say the travel budget is $6,000 a year from a baseline standpoint, and then every three years they want to do an additional trip of another 6,000, that's one trip. And so we can scatter that in throughout the plan and show them what it looks like and toggle that on and off. And with how we do planning, we can show them the impact of doing something like that and what it does to their plan. So for the higher tier, nice to have. For discretionary expenses, we will use our planning software and kind of show them, Hey, here's the impact on your plan if you want to do that. Because we always preface everything, it's telling people that it's your money, we're not telling you how to spend your money or what to do with your money, our job is to show you the impact of the decisions that you make. Mark: That makes sense, yeah. Nick: So let's arm you with that information so that you understand if you do these things, then let's make an adjustment accordingly. And for sometimes it helps them put into perspective where not everything is a yes or a no. And what I mean by that is, well, let's just say that there's two lifetime trips that they wanted to really do, and so they like to have a bigger travel budget, but really when you boil it down, it's like, okay, I want to make sure I go to these two places. So we make sure that we can accomplish those and make adjustments elsewhere. [inaudible 00:04:58] Mark: Yeah, because the must ... I'm sorry to cut you off, but I was thinking about this as you were saying it. The must-haves, like the housing, the health, food, you're not going to have any kind of discretionary wiggle room. Well, you don't want to. Now you could say, okay, we'll eat less food, or something like that, but that's not the goal in retirement, you don't want to go backwards. So the place typically we do make some adjustments in the cuts are in the nice to have categories. Nick: Yeah, and usually it's almost more of a toggle where even to a certain extent of, we've had conversations where, hey, if things are going really well in the markets and we're able to take advantage and take a little extra money out in years where things have gone well, that's kind of the impetus to do this sort of thing. Mark: Kind of pad the numbers a little bit.   Nick: Yeah. Mark: John, let me get you on here for, besides the expenses we covered, some of the things we went through, what are some contributing factors that will affect cashflow problems that you guys see in retirement? So all these different things, whether it's healthcare, housing, whether it's whatever, give me some bullet points here for folks to think about on things that can, not in a category per se, but like outside effectors, outside influencers, that can really cause us cashflow problems in retirement. John: The number one I'd say, concern for most people going through retirement is longevity. How long does my money need to last? Mark: And that's the great multiplier, right? Because if you live longer, it makes everything else go up. John: Correct. Yeah. So that's one thing we look at, and we do plans. We're planning for age 100, and we'll always get people like, well, I'm not living that long. But the thing is, that's always ... Mark: What if you do? John: Exactly. So it's like, Hey, listen, if you live to 100, guess what? Mark: You're covered. John: Your plan looks good. You could live to 90 and the plan looks good. So we always plan for, we again, overestimate the expenses, overestimate the life expectancy, Mark: And then you don't have to live with your cousin in Boston, right? John: Exactly. That's right. Mark: All right. What else besides longevity? John: Another big one we're seeing right now is inflation. Because with retirement, you're not getting a paycheck anymore, so your ability to earn is now gone. So your nest egg is providing that income for you and social security. And keeping up with inflation, especially the last few years has been a challenge for quite a few people. And mostly I would say for me, I've noticed my food bill has gone up drastically in the last couple of years, more than anything else is really. Because we talked about musts and nice to have, if trips go up, you could say, all right, I'm going to go on a little bit lesser trip, or not go as much, but you know, you got to eat and you got to have healthcare. So those things there are big ones to really consider going into retirement and to be aware of, is the plan [inaudible 00:07:42] Mark: Yeah, a friend of mine, for Memorial Day, we were talking about cookouts earlier, so we got July 4th, you're probably hearing this after July 4th, but how much did it cost you to buy this stuff? So a friend of mine posted a picture around Memorial Day that he bought three steaks, and he lived in the New York area, Nick, actually. And the tag on the thing was like 60 bucks for three steaks. It was like, holy moly. And I know different parts of the country are more expensive than others, but it was just where I'm at, it was like, wow. And they weren't like that impressive of a steak. So to your point, you got to eat. Nick: To be honest with you, I think there's a little bit of ... Mark: Price gouging. Nick: ... ridiculousness and price gouging going on right now from the perspective of a lot of different areas. I just got my six months notice on my car insurance, I've been complaining to everybody about it. One vehicle, no accidents [inaudible 00:08:34] John: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Nick, this isn't a therapy session, right? Mark: Well remembered, well remembered, John, from the prior episode. Very good. Nick: Yes. I drive probably 7,000 miles a year at the most and paying almost $2,500 a year for car insurance. But the crazy part is that, so okay, if it's always been high, that's one thing, but two years ago when I had switched companies, it was about 1,700. So again, we take ... Mark: Inflation. Nick: Do the math on that. I'm sorry, but 50% is not inflation, there's some 50% in two years and it's kind of wild. And then even just going, the area that we're in has been massive growth in this area, but even what the restaurants are charging, and it's just inflation impacts different areas differently. Mark: It's an excuse. I mean, just like anything, we've turned it into excuse, just like the supply chain problem issue. A friend of mine was trying to get his RV worked on and they were like, well, we're still having supply chain issues for a valve. And it's like, really, a valve on an RV, it's been three years. I don't know if supply chain issue really holds in that argument, but if companies are dragging their feet or employers, somebody's just taking long, that's just an excuse. And I think that's the same thing with the inflation. Is it real? Yes. But to your point, are some of these numbers really truly justified? But they can use that, well, inflation's bad. That's the excuse they use in order to hit you with a 50% increase. Nick: Yeah, and I'd say from a planning perspective, because people get concerned about that from a planning perspective, and saying, well, hey, we had much higher inflation last year than we did in our plan moving forward, and [inaudible 00:10:27] Mark: Are we going to be okay to survive it, yeah. Nick: Yeah, and the easiest way that we mitigate that from a planning perspective is we reprice current expenses. So in other words, repricing the current expenses allows us to take that into consideration, the increases that we've had, and then use more normal rates moving forward, which is how you more accurately display that from a planning side of things. Mark: Gotcha. All right, John, so you hit us with longevity and inflation as a couple of areas that can contribute to cashflow problems. Give me a couple more before we wrap up this week. John: Investment returns is another spot, depending on what type of plan you do or type of planning, if some people will really have their income depend on what their portfolio is returning for them. Mark: So we're talking about sequence of return risk, kind of thing? John: Yeah. So if you having a down year and there's not as much income coming in from your portfolio, well that could ultimately affect your cashflow. Or if it's a down year, and we go back to longevity of, Hey, how long is my portfolio going to last, just have a 20% dip in the market, you're going to be a little concerned about pulling out in that period of time, because once you pull out, you know, you realize those losses, and there's no more recovering [inaudible 00:11:41] Mark: Yeah, it's a double way, it's the market's down and you're pulling money out. So the truth that makes the longevity factor interesting. Okay. John: So one more thing on this. This is really important, and especially what we're seeing in the last couple of years where you have some type of plan where if you are dependent on that, you have almost like a different bucket to pull from in a time like this. So you really want to position yourself to be able to adapt to downturns in the market which could affect your income. Nick: One of the things, and I've been having this conversation quite a bit lately, is that previous to last year, for the dozen years leading up to that, rates in return on fixed or cash and cash equivalence was so low, you couldn't get any return on that money, that really people shifted predominantly, or at least in a large way, to take more risks, meaning more upside, so more heavily on the [inaudible 00:12:39] Mark: Well, because the market was going up too. We get addicted to that, so it's very easy to go, well, it does nothing but climb, it's done it for 12 years in a row, so let's keep going, right? Nick: Yeah. And a little bit of that's a circle where it's part of the reason it kept climbing, is because people were saying, well, and not just, but it's just a contributing factor where it's like, well, hey, I'm literally getting zero return here. So inflation's eating away at my money anyways, I might as well take a little bit more risk. And so earlier this year in the majority of our client portfolios, we took some money off the table because now we can get four to 5% in something that has no risk, and that lets us kind of at least take a deep breath, see what's going on, get some sort of return, where most of our plans, we use five to 6% in retirement anyways. Mark: Yeah, that's a good point. You just got to be careful, right? Because we don't know how long those rates will last either, so you don't want to lock yourself into anything too hefty either, without making sure it's the correct move for you. Especially, I'm thinking more like CDs for example. Nick: Yeah. We still target things that are short term, that sort of thing. But for a retiree, even from the perspective of, let's just use the million dollar number, there's a huge difference between five years ago, where if you wanted to do a one year CD and you could get 0.8%, that's $8,000 on a million bucks versus 5%, even just for a year, now it's 50,000 of income. I mean, one is you can't pay your bills, another one is going to be much more comfortable. So for a retiree, one of the sunny side or glass half full part of what we've been dealing with from an inflation perspective, is that at least there's a little bit more return on safer money as we try to re-plan and readjust. Mark: Yeah. No, that makes sense. So one more category here that I want to hit for just cashflow problems in retirement, John, you did longevity inflation and investment returns. I'm going to assume the fourth one's probably just the emergencies, the things that life throws at you in retirement years? John: Yeah, a hundred percent. Emergency funds, it's [inaudible 00:14:44] Mark: Got to have one. John: ... for that, because you just don't know what's going to happen. Mark: Murphy's Law's going to happen, right? John: Murphy's Law's been happening for the last three years. So basically a big one is healthcare expenses, which we touched on as a must have. So big health event could really dip into your emergency funds. Or again, especially here in Florida with the roofs, have talked to some clients and friends who basically were having homeowners insurance issues here, and then carriers are basically saying, Hey, for you to get renewed, you need a new roof. And all of a sudden it's like, what? I just go, my roof's fine. It's like, well, it's outdated, you know, you need a new one, or else [inaudible 00:15:24] Mark: And so they're not covering maybe the full cost or some of the cost, I guess, but they won't insure you. John: I had some friends actually get notices saying, your roof's too old. If you don't replace it, we're dropping coverage. Mark: Oh geez. Okay, yeah. John: So that's an emergency expense. Mark: Definitely. John: Roofs aren't necessarily cheap, so important to have an emergency fund because like you said, Murphy's Law, you have no idea what's going to come up and you want to be prepared for that. Mark: Yeah. No, that's a good point. Nick: The roof thing is pretty wild here too, because a lot of people have tile roofs down here. And depending upon the size of the house, a tile roof is going to cost you, what John? Between 50 and a hundred thousand dollars? John: Yeah, 50 to a hundred grand. Mark: Really? Holy moly. Nick: And so, yeah, and then if you're in a neighborhood that has association rules and all these other things, it can get a little squirrely. So just understanding even little basic things like that, where especially people that came maybe from up north where it's just shingle roofs and 10, 12 grand, 15 maybe, and then [inaudible 00:16:25] Mark: Yeah, I was going to say, my metal roof was like 20, and that was like eight years ago. Nick: Yeah. So there's just things like that where we always very much emphasize having an emergency fund. Mark: Yeah, definitely. All right, good stuff. Talking just cashflow issues, things to consider here on the podcast the last couple of weeks. So if you're worried about the cashflow or you're just worried about making sure your plan is accurate for the time of life you're in, especially if you're one of these folks that maybe got a plan, you're like, ah, I got a plan put together like a decade ago, or whatever. Well, it's not a set it and forget it, it shouldn't be a set it and forget it, anyway. Even insurance policies, sometimes it's very easy to get one and throw it in the drawer for 20 years and forget about it, but all those things can be looked at and reviewed and see if there's a better way to put a strategy together. So if you need a first opinion or second opinion, reach out to John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever the case might be. Whichever podcasting platform app you like, just type in retirement planning redefine in the search box. Or again, find it all online, pfgprivatewealth.com. For John, Nick, I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you next time here on the podcast. This has been Retirement Planning Redefined.

Show Notes 00:00 Introduction 00:22 Medicare part A 06:39 Medicare part B 15:35 Medicare part D Links Referenced: medicare.gov: https://medicare.gov Zach's email: mailto:zach@getsbi.com Nick's email: mailto:nick@getsbi.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc Webpage: https://seniors-livinghealthy.com/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to our fireside chat with Seniors Living Healthy, the podcast that helps prepare and educate you as you enter and live out your golden years. With over 10 years of experience, Nick and Zach are experts in the senior market and are here to help you live a healthy, full life. And now fireside with your hosts, Nick Keene, and Zach Haire.Nick: Hello, and welcome to season two of Seniors Living Healthy, episode one. I'm Nick. And I have Zach, our co-host with us.Zach: Hey, folks.Nick: And for episode one of season two, we want to cover parts A, B, and D of Medicare, and the changes for 2022. So Zach, let's jump right in.Zach: Sounds good. So, kind of start off there from the top, Part A, just like in the alphabet, starting out with the first letter there, you know, that is our hospitalization, sir. You know, Nick, what are some common things that Part A covers?Nick: Yeah, so Part A kicks in when individuals are admitted to the hospital. It's worth mentioning, Zach, that they're admitted because we are seeing more commonly that people are being put in the hospital under observation. And that is actually covered under Part B. So, very simply, anytime someone is admitted to the hospital, not under observation, Part A kicks in.Zach: Got you. So, let's say, you know, I'm getting ready to turn 65 in a few months. I'm still working things like that, how do I get Part A? What do I have to do to qualify for it?Nick: Great question, Zach. We do get this question quite frequently. So, the most common way to qualify for Medicare is those individuals that have worked 40 quarters or ten years and paid into Medicare via payroll taxes, right? Those individuals get Medicare the month of their 65th birthday.Zach: Got you. So, no matter what, they're going to get Part A. I know you said you paid into it while you're working. Is there any additional costs added to that?Nick: Right. So, great question there, Zach, and worth mentioning here as well. For those individuals that qualify traditionally for Medicare, they worked 40 quarters, ten years, and paid in, Part A is premium-free, think of it as prepaid. But also you have those individuals that may qualify based on their spouse's, right? Their spouses may have worked 40 quarters or ten years, they also qualify for Medicare Part A the month of their 65th birthday.Then the third situation, there is a cost. And those individuals that don't have a spouse that qualifies for Medicare they can draw off of and don't have the credits themselves, depending on how much they have worked and paid in, Part A can be purchased.Zach: Yeah. So, you do still have the ability to get Part A, if you don't ‘qualify', you can always pay for that and pick it up.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: So, we know that in most cases, there's no additional premium; you've paid into it as you were working. Are there any other, you know, common costs associated with using Part A, whether it be a deductible, whether it be you know, skilled facility care, things such as that?Nick: Absolutely. So, yeah. So, basically with Part A, the way it works is it's designed with what we call a Medicare period of care, right? So, when those individuals that have Part A are admitted to the hospital, they are immediately responsible for a $1,556 deductible in the year 2022 that covers their first 60 days in their period of care, right? So, for those individuals, they go in, they pay that $1556 deductible, they're covered for the first 60 days, right?But it's worth mentioning that if they go beyond day 60 they do have additional cost, right? And that period of care doesn't end until they go a continuous 60 days without accessing care under Part A. So, assuming their period of care extends, day 61 through 90, those individuals are going to be responsible for $389 a day that they're in the hospital, and day 91 and beyond using those 60 lifetime reserve days, they're going to be responsible for $778 a day. You know, and the other thing to touch on here, Zach, that you mentioned is skilled facility care, right? So, we've seen a major transition in our market over the last five to ten years.You can recall when we were little, people had extended stays in the hospital, you know, people were in their one, two, four, six months. That doesn't happen really anymore, right? What we're seeing, the trend is individuals are being admitted to the hospital, they're being stabilized, and they're being shipped off to skilled facility care centers, right? And you know, whether that's for a hip replacement or a knee replacement, they fell and they broke something, speech, occupational therapy, whatever it may be, these individuals are staying at the skilled facility care centers for extended periods of time, not in the hospital. So, to qualify for Medicare to cover skilled facility care, they have to be in the hospital for at least three days and be admitted to the skilled facility care center within 30 days of being discharged. If those criteria are met, Medicare will cover day 1 through 20, one hundred percent, and then day 21 through 100, the individual is responsible for $194.50 per day.Zach: Got you there. So, you know, once someone is on Part A [everything 00:05:16], is there any limits where they can go, networks, anything like that?Nick: Yeah, one of the beauties of Medicare, Zach, and you know, we tell clients this all the time is Medicare's a nationwide program, right? California, North Carolina, Michigan, to Florida, and everywhere in between. They can access care, right? And that's one of the great things about Medicare is almost all facilities, almost all doctor's office accept Medicare. So, they have no restrictions, they can go just about anywhere they want.Zach: Got you. So, kind of wrapping up Part A there is, anyone can get that as long as you've worked 40 quarters or your spouse has worked 40 quarters. You're able to get that the month you turn 65, the first day of the month.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: And no matter whether you're continuing working or what you've got Part A?Nick: Yep.Zach: And with Part A alone, there was a $1,556 deductible on that they'd be responsible for but then, you know, it does help you in the skilled facility care things such as that, along with your 60-day continuous window of care. And again, no network so you can go wherever you want to go if you've got that Part A; pretty much every hospital, I'd say, in America takes Medicare.Nick: Absolutely, Zach. And just to wrap up on Part A, you know, one of the things that people need to remember is Part A is just hospital admittance insurance. Most of your typical services that are everyday needs are happening on outpatient care, or Part B, which we will be covering shortly.Zach: All right, so now we're going to roll into Part B, again, following our alphabet here, B comes right after A. So B, if you look at your red, white, and blue Medicare card, it is going to say medical, but we refer to it as outpatient.Nick: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we try to eliminate confusion there because the Medicare card says ‘hospital' for Part A and ‘medical' for Part B, but we kind of feel both of those are medical, right? So, we like to explain Part B as anything that is outpatient care, or care that is not admitted into the hospital.Zach: Exactly, yeah. So, kind of got that cleared up. What exactly does it cover when it comes to different things?Nick: Yeah. So, Part B is by far the most common Medicare part, right? It's the most common used, and it literally covers any Medicare-approved charge outside of being admitted to the hospital, right? So, that could be hospital admittance under observation, that could be lab work, physical therapy, CAT scans, MRIs, doctor visits, primary care, or specialists, durable medical equipment, diabetic testing supplies, all those things encompass Part B.Zach: So, we know in Part A you get that automatically when you turn 65. Part B work the same way, or is there a few more hoops to jump through for that?Nick: Yes. So, for Part B, you know, that individual that qualifies for Medicare, either off their work experience or off of a spouse's work experience, they still are eligible to get Part B the month of their 65th birthday, right? However, with Part B, there is a premium, so Medicare does allow it to be elective.Zach: So, with it being elective, how does that situation play out? Do I have to take Part B when I turned 65? If I have creditable coverage, am I fine? You know, if I don't take am I going to get penalized? How does that work?Nick: Yeah, so we're seeing this question come across our desk more and more, Zach. It seems like in this day and age, more and more people are working post-65. We didn't run into this a lot five years ago. But basically, the way it's working is for those individuals that are Medicare-eligible, turning 65, they qualify for Medicare, they can still take Part B the month of their 65th birthday, but if they're still working and have credible coverage, right, which is defined as coverage, at least equivalent to Medicare, they do not have to take Part B. They can postpone it without penalty, assuming they have credible coverage.Zach: Got you. So, you said, you know, 2022, that average premium is $170.10.Nick: Yep.Zach: Which leads you to say if that's the average, there can be some outliers. Is there a way to make that cost lower?Nick: Yeah. So, you know, for a lot of individuals out there, they qualify for what's called Medicare Savings Programs, right? And we know those different programs, whether that's QMB, SLMB, Extra Help those types of things, those programs are designed to reduce or eliminate the premiums, deductibles, and copays associated with Part B, right? So, there are individuals that pay less, there are individuals that pay nothing if they qualify for those Medicare Savings Programs. And it's worth mentioning, to qualify for those programs, you need to reach out to Medicare, the Social Security office that goes through them.Zach: I'd be willing to bet it works the other way, too. I bet they can get a multiplier on you also.Nick: Yep, yep. So, what we see—you know, and once again, we're seeing it more and more as people are coming out of the workforce later in life—those individuals have what's called an IRMA, right, Income-Related Medicare Adjustment. So, if you have income levels above certain thresholds, Medicare is actually going to charge a multiplier, right, you're going to pay more than that $170.10 in 2022. medicare.gov is a great resource, they have the chart right there on the website, showing what those brackets are to get higher Part B costs.So, we certainly encourage people that think they may fall into that bracket, get on medicare.gov, reach out to us, you know, we can ask a couple questions and tell them what they would be looking at.Zach: Got you. So, kind of how we're on the cost of Part B—Nick: Sure.Zach: You know, if someone doesn't have credible coverage and they don't take Part B, then down the road they take Part B, what kind of penalty are they looking at?Nick: Yeah, so the government is penalizing those individuals that don't have Medicare and don't have credible coverage, right? And the penalty that they impose is 10% of the cost of Part B, per full year not covered either via Part B or creditable coverage, right? And it's worth mentioning, if they try to apply for Part B down the road, they're still going to pay that standard premium, they're going to pay that penalty on top of it, and unless they qualify for one of those Medicare Savings Programs like we were talking about, that's never going away.Zach: Yep so looking there, at you know—there are different times to enroll, in that, you know, when people do turn 65, a lot of times they take A and B at the same time.Nick: Yep.Zach: You can delay Part B, as we've talked about. What are those—that situation look like? If someone delays Part B, does that vary from when they turn 65?Nick: Absolutely. So, for individuals that are taking Original Medicare when they're turning 65, those individuals, you know, they get it the month of their 65th birthday. But for those individuals that are delaying Medicare, right, there's two different groups that it's worth mentioning here. For those people that have credible coverage that are still working, you know, they can take Part B anytime concurrent with their loss of coverage, or retirement, right, they have what's called a special election period. But the thing to mention is for those individuals that delay Part B that don't have credible coverage, they can only apply for Part B at certain times throughout the year, right?And that's what's called the general election period. Zach, right? And basically what that is a period from January 1st through March 31st each year that they can apply for Medicare Part B to go into effect 7/1 of that year.Zach: Right. So, you know, kind of look at you have your annual enrollment period, which is every year, October 15th, December 7th, which doesn't really play into this, but then you have your initial enrollment, which people might hear a lot about when they first turned 65, or take their Part B of Medicare. So, looking at, you know, we've kind of we've gone over what the premium can be as well as what possibly the penalty could be. As a whole, what does Part B have? What is it going to cover? What's going to be your out-of-pocket with that?Nick: Yeah, so you know, back to what we kind of mentioned earlier, just to kind of recap this is, Part B is going to cover anything that's not admitted into the hospital, right? So, you know, once again, that's hospitalization under observation; CAT scans; MRIs; lab work; physical therapy; doctor's visits, whether primary care or specialists; diabetic testing supplies; durable medical equipment. And the way Part B is designed, it's an 80/20 coinsurance, right? So, Medicare's covering 80%, the client is responsible for the remaining 20%, plus the Part B deductible, which is, in the year 2022, $233, right? So, it's worth mentioning here—and we tell this to people all the time, this is why we encourage people to get supplemental policies—that 20% that we speak of is uncapped.Now, if you're going to the doctor once a year, that's not a big deal, right? But if you're going through cancer treatments, if you're going through some sort of outpatient surgery, you got to pay 20% of all of that cost, which certainly leaves people with some exposure, right?Zach: Got you. So, you know, no max out of pocket; you know, you're going to keep paying that 20—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: —until—and again, Part B is very similar to Part A, there's no networks.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: They take Medicare, they're going to take in. As long as you may have been doing this, I don't think I've ran into a doctor's office that doesn't take Medicare, yet.Nick: Yeah. In ten years, I've ran into one facility that didn't accept Medicare.Zach: Yep. So, kind of wrapping up Part B there. Know no, it is, in a sense, elective; when you turn 65 or retire from work losing credible coverage, you can pick up Part B at that time. If you don't pick up Part B without credible coverage, they are going to give you a nice little permanent penalty to add onto that, which for 2022 is $170.10. Probably going to see an increase in that down the road.Nick: Mm-hm. Absolutely.Zach: It's going to cover everything for you 80/20, whether that be durable medical equipment, diabetic testing, outpatient surgery, or anything like that. But that 20% is not going to be capped.Nick: Yep, absolutely.Zach: All right. And kind of moving on down the line. Here we've done A, we've done B. We're going to skip over C, so we're going to hit in Part D of Medicare. Easy to remember what it covers because covers your drugs. Part D: Drugs, easy to keep up with there. So, we have talked about, you know, in Part A and Part B, how you get it, what you qualify for. How does that work with Part D?Nick: Yes, so Part D, you know, it's worth mentioning, Unlike Supplemental Coverage, or Medicare Advantage coverage, which we will be covering in next episode, With Part D, the individual only has to have a minimum of Part A or B of Medicare, although most people have A and B, right? But it's worth noting for those individuals that are still working that are delaying Part B, just having Part A is enough to purchase Part D. And it's also worth mentioning, you have to live in the plan's service area, right? Part D drug plans are network-based, so you have to have a minimum of A and/or B, and live in the plan's service area to purchase a drug plan it.Zach: So, also we've talked about cost. When it comes to cost, A and B for the most part, are standardized. Is Part D the same way, or you know, what is its cost?Nick: Yes. So, one of the things that, you know, we're always telling people as we're speaking with them is all prescription drug plans are different, right? And, you know, we see drug plans anywhere from $6.50 a month in premium in the year 2022 All the way north of $100 a month, right? And, you know, it's like we say, if one plan was the best for everybody, right, they would put the rest out of the business.So, as far as costs, it certainly has a wide range, and that all depends on what the scripts, what medications those individuals are taking, right? But it's also worth mentioning, just like Part B of Medicare, right? Medicare Savings Programs can cover some or all of the costs of the drug plans and can also either reduce or completely eliminate the cost of those medications people are taking as well, right? So, it can come down. And it's also worth mentioning, IRMA coming back into play here, right, that Income-Related Medicare Adjustment, for those individuals that are higher-level earners, right, they have a multiplier on that Part D premium, so they would pay that multiplier on top of the standard premium for Part D.Zach: Pretty easy to see why Part D is the most complicated part of our job—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: When it comes there. So, you know, kind of covered, premiums are going to vary, and then on top of that you could get help through Medicare, or you could get a multiplier on Medicare there. So, what does it take to qualify for Part D? I know you said yet to have Part A and/or Part B, one or the other, but what if I'm-you know, what, if I'm in that boat where I'm still working? Do I have to take Part D if I have Part A, or can I forgo it?Nick: Yeah. So, very similar to Part B, Part D is elective right? Now, you have to have credible coverage to not be penalized, but you can delay it. So, if you're 65, you're becoming Medicare eligible, you're still working, or maybe you're retired and you're still carrying group insurance, you don't have to take a drug plan as long as your coverage is credible. And once again, credible [unintelligible 00:18:59] coverage is defined as coverage at least equivalent to Medicare's basic coverage, right?So, for those individuals that are still working, they are not needing Medicare Part D, they will not be penalized for not taking a Medicare prescription drug plan.Zach: So, you said they—you know, if they have credible coverage, they're not going to be penalized, which therefore means there's a penalty.Nick: Yep.Zach: What is that penalty?Nick: Yeah. So, it's a little bit different than the way Part B works. So, for Part D, the average cost of a per prescription drug plan in 2022 is approximately $34. So, every full month that they go without credible coverage, or coverage, they are going to be penalized 1% of that $34 premium in the year 2022, times the amount of full months they went without coverage. Now, it's worth noting that average premium costs switches year-to-year, right? We've watched that steadily creep up over the last few years.So, you know, it's very hard for us to be able to give people an exact penalty, what they would be looking at. Medicare is who's going to determine those, Medicare is who's going to issue those, so we can give people an idea, but ultimately that information has to come from Medicare, right?Zach: Got you there. So, you know, we know when you first turn 65 going into Medicare, you can get Part D, if you go that route.Nick: Yep.Zach: What if I've been 65 for a while and I get some new prescriptions, it's not covered well on my plan, when can I make changes to those?Nick: Yes. So, for those individuals that are new to Medicare, they're in that initial enrollment period, right? That window runs three months before their effective date up to three months after. Once that period ends, right, they're very limited in the ways that they can make changes, right, the most common is annual enrollment period, right? Anybody that's been in this business, knows anything about it, they get bombarded, you know, in that timeframe.But from October 15th through December 7th, those individuals can make changes, as many as they want, and when the sun goes down December 7th, the last application that was signed and turned in becomes effective 1/1, right? But now over the last few years, you know, Medicare introduced the Medicare Advantage open enrollment period, right, which is now running January 1st through March 31, and during that timeframe, individuals that are on Medicare Advantage plans can make a change to their drug coverage in two different forms, right? So, they can change from one Medicare Advantage plan to another Medicare Advantage plan, or if they so choose, they can drop Medicare Advantage back to Original Medicare and pick up a prescription drug plan. But outside of those two windows, Zach, the only other situation, typically, that we see people can make changes is they have a special election period, right? And in our business, what that means is, A, they're moving, right?In our area, we see people coming down from the north moving here, or maybe they're snowbirds, they're moving from here or the north down to Florida. Those individuals get a special election period because they're moving out of that plan's service area, right? And then the other caveat would be those individuals that are post-65 that are still working, that are still carrying group insurance, those individuals have a special election period when they retire and/or lose coverage that they can make a change to their drug coverage as well.Zach: So, kind of off that point, there are networks on these drug plans that does give you the ability to change if you do move because you would be out of your network service area—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: There. Yep. So, you know, we talk to people all the time, especially [AEP 00:22:44] about prescription plans. When you're talking to us, talking to your agent, whoever, when you're going through this, one, you know, what are some things you need to make sure you have handy to make our lives easier as an agent, but then what—tell them on our end what we're looking at, to help them make a decision?Nick: Yeah, so I'm going to answer that question backwards, Zach, okay? I'm going to answer your second question first, and we'll fire away on the second one. So, for those individuals that are looking, right, to get prescription drug coverage, there's several things that they need to understand about a plan, or at least grasp, right, to know why it is what we're doing, right? It's easy for us to recommend a solution, but we feel—I know, we've always discussed this—we feel that ultimately, you know, it's our job to educate people, but it is ultimately their decision, right?So, for us, you know, what we're looking at, you know, in the grand scheme here is overall cost, right? I mean, you know, that's what I want to know, what are these plans going to cost you, whether that's in the form of a premium, whether that's in the form of a deductible on your plan, whether that's in the form of the copays you pay to fill your script each year, we're looking at that aggregate annual cost, right? Now, as far as what we need to be effective as a tool for them in searching plans, you know, all plans are different, Zach, as we know. The premium is different, some plans have deductibles, some don't, some offers zero copay on tier one, tier two, some don't, right?So, what we ask of clients to be effective in this manner is we need a list of your prescriptions, we need to know the dosages of each one of your prescriptions, and then we ultimately need to know the frequency that you're taking them or filling them, and we have the ability to plug in and pull all options in their area and discuss those costs with them.Zach: Yeah, definitely. So, kind of wrapping up Part D, put a bow on it there. It is similar to B, it's elective—Nick: Sure.Zach: —in a sense. As long as you've got credible coverage elsewhere, you don't have to take Part D at the time you turn 65. As long as you have A or B, you are eligible for it. And plans vary. This is a plan that you definitely need to reach out to your agent, reach out to us—Nick: We'd prefer if it was us, Zach.Zach: Yeah. [laugh]. Oh, yeah. And so, you know—because they do vary so much by premium, deductibles, copays, networks, things like that, but they will cover your prescriptions; there are ways out there to work that.Nick: Yeah. Just to add, wrapping up here, Zach, you know, one of the things that we always preach to our agents and we always tell our clients is, this is the basics of everything that has to do with Medicare, right? So, we feel that these are important, people need to have a grasp of the way that Original Medicare and prescription drug coverage works before they're really ever going to have a chance, right, to know how that secondary or that Medicare Advantage plan works.So, as you're listening to this, we've kind of been generic, right? We're covering the highlights. For those individuals that have more questions that maybe have a specific question, you know, reach out to us, 844-437-4253. We're here, we're ready to answer your questions, and we'd certainly love to hear from you.Zach: All right, folks. So, this kind of wraps up episode one here. We covered Parts A, B, and D of Medicare. We hope that that helped you out there, answered some questions for you. We tried to cover some of the real basic questions we get on a daily basis.You know, but if you do have more questions or want more information, you know, ready to sign up and looking for help, we'd be more than happy to help. You know, as Nick stated earlier, you can always give us a call at 844-437-4253, or we can always be reached by email zach@getsbi.com or nick@getsbi.com. We hope you found this episode informational and helpful, and as always, we'll catch you guys next time.Announcer: Thank you for listening, and we hope you found this episode informative. If we answered your questions, odds are you aren't the only one wanting to know, so please share this episode with your friends and family. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and rate our show on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts to catch all of our episodes. If you want more information, or want to talk directly with Nick and Zach, you can call them at 1-844-437-4253. You can also find them on Facebook at facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc or on their website. seniors-livinghealthy.com. Thanks for listening, and have a great day.

There are plenty of external factors that often negatively influence our chances of having a successful retirement. But often, failure comes from within. On this episode, we'll talk about some of the common ways people get in their own way when it comes to financial planning. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey, everybody. Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's Retirement Planning Redefined with John, and Nick, and myself. And we're going to talk about the secret to retirement success. Here, it is. Get out of your own way. Typically, we are the success or the reason for failure, one of the two, because we tend to muck up the works ourselves by often injecting our emotions and thoughts into these things. And rightfully so, because that's part of it, which I think, again, we're going to talk about the value of working with a team and some professionals like John and Nick, because we tend to get in our own way. And I think we all realize that we do that in many aspects of life, and certainly money is one of those. What's going on, guys? How you doing this week, Nick? What's up buddy?   Nick: Everything's great. Perfect.   Mark: Yeah. Rock and rolling?   Nick: Yep.   Mark: Feeling good?   Nick: Yep. It's great.   Mark: That's fantastic. John, how you feeling my friend?   John: Doing all right. A little upset over the weekend. The Celtics lost game three to the Miami Heat, but there's another game tonight. So-   Mark: Another chance.   John: Hoping that they could tie up the series.   Mark: There you go. Fantastic. Well...   Nick: Yeah. I'll throw in a good gold [inaudible 00:01:01] lightning, our own fire.   Mark: Okay.   Nick: Free nothing as we record this.   Mark: Nice. Very nice. So what do you think about my statement there, getting out of our own way? There's lots of external factors obviously, that negatively influenced stuff in our retirement world. Right? We can't control the markets, but we can control how we react to them. Do you feel like that's a fairly accurate assessment of finding some keys to success sometimes is, getting out of your own head?   John: Yeah. Yeah. I would 100% agree with that. And we're seeing that right now where the market is, it's down year to date. There's a lot of negative news out there and, there's always negative news out there. But there's a lot of things happening in the world and it's creating a lot of fear. And what that does is it really eats into people's perceptions of what's going on with their portfolios. So naturally what's happening is, hey, when is the bleeding going to stop? Do I need to pull out of the market? Do I need to get more conservative? What should I do? So this is really a period of time where, important to get out of your own way and just stay the course.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And we harp on it quite a bit in all of our podcasts, but this is where the plan is essential, because we've had some reviews and people are nervous and rightfully so. But when they see the plan, it's like, how does this 10% pull back, whatever it is at the time, affect your overall plan? And they look at it and they say, oh, it doesn't really affect that much, just yet.   Mark: Right.   John: And when they see that, it's like, oh, okay, that makes you feel a little bit better. See where I'm at. So yeah, 100%, stay the course and definitely get out of your own way so you make good decisions.   Mark: And I think if we're talking with the market being the first one on the list, fear and greed, that's the normal stuff, jumping in and jumping out. And we tend to feel like it's the only thing we can do are these two things anyway. A lot of people, we're going to touch on that in a minute as well, but often it's well, all I can do is the market are cash and the market's scaring, the pa jeepers out of me so let me just jump out, and that's typically when we're making the wrong decision, especially if you don't have a plan. So having a strategy in there, because yes, it stinks when we're losing, we talked a little bit about on the last episode. Everybody's fine with risk when the markets have been on fire for 12 and a half years or whatever, but when they get real shaky for a few months, that's when people tend to get in their own way and allow that fear or greed to jump in there.   Mark: So since we covered that one on your initial part there, John, I'm going to jump to number two. No, go ahead. If you've got something else.   John: Yeah, yeah. One, actually you mentioned greed there and actually, it plays into the fear thing as well-   Mark: Okay.   John: Because, we've talked about the markets running up and when that's happening it's, I only got X percent this year. If I was more aggressive, I would've got a little bit more. So we have had those conversations where it's like, hey, should I get more aggressive? And the answer is no. Go to the plan, look at your risk tolerance, stay the course because when you try to get greedy and then all of a sudden, let's say you do go to a more aggressive portfolio.   Mark: Right.   John: And we have a big pullback in the S&P and in equities and all of a sudden, you're more nervous than you should be because you're taking more risk. And now you start to jump out and you get to that fear stage and you just make bad decisions.   Mark: Yeah. Great point. Great point. Well, Nick, talk to me a little bit about getting in our own way, when it comes to picking an investment or doing something solely because we think it's a tax help, right. It's not part of the plan, it doesn't make sense in other arenas. The idea is, no I'm doing this simply for the tax advantage. Is that a bad move?   Nick: Yeah. A really good example of this would be towards the end of last year, early this year, we made a pretty big cycle in client's portfolios from the growth side of the market to the value side of the market. And so that did cause some capital gains and probably a bigger capital gain shift than we typically have for clients that are in taxable portfolios. But again, the premise was that we felt strongly that moving forward, it was going to be something that benefited them from a performance standpoint, which is the number one priority. And that's really turned out to be the case where really the value markets are down closer to 3% or 4%. The growth markets are down close to 30%. So that's kind of a perfect real world, real life example of, yes, nobody likes taxes, but sometimes taking some gains and recycling the portfolio and shifting to where we think things are going to look better moving forward, is something that makes sense.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: Taxes are again, something that people don't like and when we want to, we avoid it, but it should rarely ever be the number one priority in any sort of financial decision making.   Mark: Yeah. Don't let the tax tail wag the dog, as the saying goes, don't do something solely for the tax advantage, especially if it doesn't fit well into the overall strategy. And I'm glad that you brought up that point there where, looking at that and saying, hey, we do things, they all work together. There's a lot of these puzzle pieces that ebb and flow and move in and out together. So sometimes you do one thing and it has a ripple effect to another. And that's a great point. So I'm glad you brought that up.   Mark: John, another one on here is the cash conversation. I mentioned a minute ago, people tend to think there's only two options, the market or cash. And when it gets choppy, we go heck with this, I'm getting out and going to cash. And then we can even, maybe even just right now, we might even find this need to justify it by going, well, the Fed's ticking the rates up so I'll get a little bit more in cash, right. Even though it's nothing compared to inflation, but anyway, that can be a bad decision. You're getting in your own way. And then you might wind up just sitting there too long. And I mean, what if you jumped out in April of 20, when the pandemic was happening, we're down 30%, you jump out, you sell, you get your losses locked in and you stayed in cash the rest of 20. Well, you missed a heck of a second half.   John: Yeah. That that's accurate. And that's why it's always important to stay the course, because timing to get back in is almost impossible. Because the rallies up happen really within, if look at historically, it's always a couple of days or a week or two.   Mark: Right.   John: And if you miss it, you miss a majority of it. So important to stay the course. Be in the right risk tolerance so you don't go to cash or something like that. And then we have seen this quite a bit as well with cash in the sideline. And it can happen in an upmarket where we're hitting all time highs constantly, because it's like, hey, I don't want to put this money in because we keep hitting highs, it's going to come down at some point. And then now where it's the reverse, where we're having a pull back and it's like, well I don't want to put the money in because it's currently going down. So strategy against that would be dollar cost averaging into the market. Just piecemealing it and that typically will help some people get back into it with less risk.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And there are other strategies involved, but definitely you got to put your money to work [inaudible 00:08:15] pace inflation and especially nowadays.   Mark: That's a great point for sure. All right. So Nick helped me out here, buddy. I don't want to fall to fear. I don't want to necessarily fall to greed. I don't want to make bad choices from a tax standpoint. I don't want to go to cash and do nothing. Well now I don't know what to do, I'm just stuck. That's number four on my list. We overthink it to the point where we just freeze and we do nothing. And as the song says from the great Canadian rock band Rush, if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. So doing nothing is just as bad sometimes as doing something in the wrong way.   Nick: Yes. The overthinking side of things is definitely something I have empathy for people with. It takes me about a month to book a trip and probably sitting down five different times with 20 tabs open each time. So I get the process issue.   Mark: Well, humans procrastinate. Doesn't make you bad, it just-   Nick: Yes. Yeah.   Mark: We all do it. Yeah.   Nick: For sure. But what this does and people hear this a lot from us because we talk about it a lot is, it's the importance of the plan. So a lot of times what ends up happening is, the reason that people are frozen with indecision is because they're worried about their process. They're worried about the outcome and usually the fear of the unknown is more fragile and worse than actually knowing, having some certainty on what things look like, even if they're not ideal. So when we have people that are overthinking things or are really fretting about a certain decision, usually what we try to do is go back to the plan. So hey, let's re-review the plan. Let's look and see what things look like. And one of the things that we emphasize with clients that work with us from a planning perspective, is trying to help them start to make decisions differently.     Nick: And so the way that we do planning, the way that we're able to model out different situations and scenarios, we'll joke with people, let us tell you no. Because a lot of times what happens is people are limiting themselves out of concern of the unknown. And so, let us be your guardrails a little bit, let us be the bumpers in the lane to use an analogy and we'll help you work through these decisions, but instead of worrying about what the outcomes are. It's almost impossible for people to figure out all the outcomes on their own.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: And so let us help you figure out, let's see the potential outcomes, let's see what we can do to mitigate some of the risks associated with it. And we can really narrow down. And so having that open door policy with clients and having them work with us, to work through these sorts of decisions where, we're a team member versus them trying to figure it out on their own is really important.   Mark: Nah, I like that. And I'm a heck of a bowler with the bumpers up. I'm just saying, so.   Nick: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It definitely increases the average.   Mark: It did a little, just a little bit. So to check this out, John, let's do one more here on this conversation about getting in our own way. So a friend of mine, super nice guy, we're chatting the other day and this is what he says to me. Tell me what your reaction to this. So he says, Hey, my neighbor and I, we're good buddies. We're the same age. And our house costs the same amount of money, roughly that, where we live here. He's going to cash. And he's like, and I know you talk about stuff on podcast and stuff all the time. He's going to cash and he's advising me to do the same thing. I think it's a good move. And I said, why? Because you're the same age and your house costs roughly the same? Don't you think there's like about a million more things you could base this on?   Mark: So my point being is, is getting advice from people who really don't need to give you advice. I'm sure his friend and his neighbor didn't have any ill intention, but that just seemed like a goofy scenario to me. It's water cooler talk, so many of us do that.   John: Yeah. Yeah. We see that quite a bit where people are, my friend's doing this or like you said, my neighbor's doing this, but we have to constantly remind [inaudible 00:12:20] everyone that every situation's completely different. Something that might be good for someone else isn't good for you. And that's the importance of really getting the plan and making sure all your decisions are based on your plan.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And not your neighbor, not your cousin, not whoever-   Mark: Cousin Eddie. Yeah. Right.   John: Yeah. What we typically find with this is everyone always tells you about their good decisions. Like, oh yeah. I went for cash and this is what happened. They don't tell you when they didn't make a good decision.   Mark: Yeah.   John: It's not exciting to talk about when you lost money or lost an opportunity. So definitely want to leave it to the professionals and not a neighbor, a buddy that really doesn't have much experience in navigating these environments.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: Yeah. It's the whole wins in Vegas scenario.   Mark: Exactly. Exactly.   Nick: People always talk about the wins and I just want to jump in on this one-   Mark: Sure. Go for it.   Nick: Because one of the things that I've been trying to emphasize with clients as well, especially those that are new to maybe, having an advisor or a planning relationship is that the advice that we're giving for them is the advice that we're giving at that set place and time. And so meaning, people tend to feel more comfortable when there are like general rules of thumb or those sorts of things. And so maybe it's a question like, a basic one that happens all the time is extra payments towards the mortgage or not. And so one of the things we've been trying to really get through people's heads is that, hey, we may be telling you to not do that right now, but it's because we have goals over the next one to three years that we're trying to hit because of X, Y, Z factors. And that might be something that we target three years down the road, but right now, it's more important for you to do these other things, to put yourselves in a better position to be able to do that.   Nick: And so what having that kind of conversation with people have seen the light click on quite a bit, because giving them the situation where, Hey, let's take you and your friend, and let's say that nine out of ten factors are the same, but that one factor can dramatically change-   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: The advice. And so even though you might feel like you have a twin in so many different ways, that one factor can be a huge differentiator on the sort of advice or the sort of strategy that you should have in place from a financial perspective. And really, you hear people talk about, each situation's unique, but really being more specific in helping them realize that has been something that has been helpful for some people lately, especially with the choppy waters that we've been in the last four or five months.   Mark: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you listen to this podcast and there's three guys on here having a conversation, but the three of us need different things for the time of life that we're in and whatever's going on. You two might be similar in age for example, but one's got kids, one doesn't.   Nick: Exactly.   Mark: I'm older than exactly you guys. So there's a million variations could go into what you need individually. So again, I don't think that the neighbors or coworkers or cousin Eddie or whatever it might be mean any ill will, but it's just not the best advice. So again, getting in our own way sometimes is listening to those people who really we shouldn't be listening to. So that's going to wrap it up this week for the podcast. So the secret to retirement success is you and how willing you are to not get in your own way, to make sure that you realize the things that you know, and the things that you can do, and then turning to those people to help you in those shortcoming areas.   Mark: I don't pretend to try to rebuild my car from the ground up, because I have no idea how to do that. Sure, I can change some spark plugs and change the oil, but that's the limit of my knowledge. So I'm not going to tear the whole thing apart and start from the ground up. Same kind of idea. So that's the conversation, make sure that you reach out to John and Nick. If you've got some questions, if you're worried about sabotaging yourself, doing some things you shouldn't be, especially in these choppy waters, as Nick mentioned, it's easy to do. It's easy to let that little fear monster jump up and nibble in our ear. So reach out, have a conversation with the team at PFG Private Wealth, before you take any action, especially if you feel like you need to make a change.   Mark: I think that's a fundamental thing that we do as humans as well. Sometimes we feel like if we're not doing something, we're doing something wrong and often not doing anything could be a good move for your situation, but you need to find out through the process of getting a plan put together or just reexamining the plan that you may already have in place. So pfgprivatewealth.com is how you make it happen. That's where you can find John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth. Again, pfgprivatewealth.com. Pretty easy to remember and reach out to him if you got some questions or concerns, get on the calendar, hit the subscribe button for whatever platform you like to use. Athol, Google, Spotify, so on and so forth. For John and Nick. I'm your host Mark. We'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined.

So there's much talk these days about weight stigma, in fact, we recorded a number of podcasts ourselves on the topic, and I believe it's very important, but this is our first podcast on another form of stigma. One that is powerful, often overlooked, and highly important to address. Our guests today are Matthew Garza and Nick Cuttriss. Matthew is Managing Editor at The diaTribe Foundation. And the dia in diaTribe derives from diabetes. The foundation's mission is to, and I'm quoting here, "to improve the lives of people with diabetes, prediabetes, "and obesity, and to advocate for action." I've served on an advisory board for diaTribe, and very much admire their work. Nicolas Cuttriss is a pediatric endocrinologist, and is founder of the ECHO Diabetes Action Network, and also has served on an advisory committee for the diaTribe Foundation. Matthew and Nick have been integral to a novel and welcome program on diabetes stigma that launched recently, that can be seen at the website, dstigmatize.org. Interview Summary   So Matthew, let's start with you. So can you explain what is diabetes stigma, and how does it relate to stereotypes around food and obesity?   Mathew – Absolutely. So in general, we know that stigma refers to the experiences of exclusion, rejection, prejudice, that blame and shame that people unfairly experience based on some characteristic or perceived difference. And in this case, that's diabetes. And this might look like negative attitudes towards people with diabetes. It might be hurtful or insensitive jokes made at their expense. And in some cases, it can even be outright discrimination. While there are many forms that diabetes stigma can take, such as being singled out for wearing a visible diabetes device, like a continuous glucose monitor for example, or an insulin pump, it could also be the stigma that's associated with having a chronic condition that does require, in some cases, daily medication. What we're seeing is that most of the research actually shows that the bulk of the stigma associated with diabetes stems from the misunderstanding that poor choices and unhealthy behaviors are the sole cause of this condition. And that people who have been diagnosed with diabetes somehow brought it on themselves. And this is attributed to both people with type 1 and type 2. And the stigma comes from lots of different sources. So it can be external from the media in shows or on the news. It can come from your friends and your family, from coworkers, healthcare professionals in a clinical setting. And sometimes it can even happen within the diabetes community. We often see that in defending themselves from the harmful stereotypes associated with diabetes, that people with type 1 can sometimes unintentionally redirect that stigma back onto people with type 2. And in regards to how this form of stigma specifically relates to food and obesity, it really goes back to what I was saying that unless you have diabetes or unless you know someone close to you that has diabetes, a lot of time, your only real knowledge of the condition is that it's connected to eating too much sugar, right? Or eating too much junk food, and that that somehow caused this. And a lot of times, it's associated with obesity or having excess weight. And then, on top of that, especially in America, we have this culture that there's this really problematic assumption that health is primarily a matter of individual responsibility. And this creates this stigmatizing narrative that blames people with diabetes for bad choices, and it sets up this us versus them. And it makes us treat people with diabetes differently because somehow they did this to themselves. But all of these beliefs oversimplify this really complex biological condition. And it overlooks all of those other, the systemic factors, such as environmental and socioeconomic context that people live in. Their access to healthy food options, to healthy grocery stores, for places to exercise. And so the more that we can kind of separate out diabetes from these misconceptions about food or sugar being its only cause, I think it's the better that we can support people and make sure that everyone is getting the care that they deserve.   Boy, have you painted a detailed picture of that and I appreciate it, and I can imagine that navigating this world of stigmatizing events must be especially difficult for children. But let me ask you, overall, what are the negative impacts of diabetes stigma?   Mathew - Absolutely, so there's so much research that I think still needs to be done to get a picture of the prevalence, the impacts, and the interventions that can address diabetes stigma. And thankfully, we've had some really great leaders in the field who have started to lay the groundwork to show all of this. And we see that diabetes stigma, and especially the language that we use to talk about diabetes has extremely negative effects. People with diabetes report feelings of fear, embarrassment, blame, anxiety, low self-esteem as a result of experiencing stigma. And this can translate into really harmful mental health conditions such as depression or higher levels of stress that drive unhealthy behaviors and can increase a person's risk for developing even greater health complications. You know, I know that Rebecca Puhl has touched on this a lot in her research on weight bias that we have this idea that potentially having this stigmatizing attitude will somehow motivate people. And in this case, motivate people with obesity or excess weight to improve their current habits. But actually, it has the opposite effect, and it causes things like harmful disordered eating or leading people to avoid physical activity altogether. And in the same vein, we see it happening with diabetes as well, that the stigma associated with the condition actually leads to worse self-care and worse diabetes management. So for example, we've talked to people, and seen in the research that they report injecting insulin only in public restrooms or at home, that they might choose to make an unhealthy food choice to avoid declining what is being offered to them. And even manipulating their glucose logs or lying about the management that they're doing just to avoid criticism from significant others or from healthcare professionals. And specifically, when the stigma is from healthcare professionals, it can actually inhibit people from seeking the necessary care that they need. One of the really concerning things that we've seen recently is that the research shows that people with diabetes fear being exposed for having diabetes or being labeled as disabled. And it discourages them from being open about their diagnosis in a way that is also influencing those who might be at risk, because it's acting as a barrier overall to awareness about the condition and to prevention. And it's increasing those feelings of isolation right after a diagnosis. And so the sheer breadth of all of these negative effects is why we believe that addressing diabetes stigma is such an essential missing element of effective diabetes care.   Well, in a very short time, you've mentioned a number of very troubling consequences, and you can see how these things would feed on each other and you'd have this cascade of negative effects that could really impact just about every part of a person's life. So Nick, let's turn to you. So research on both diabetes and weight stigma has shown that people often report feeling stigmatized in healthcare settings. So what experiences are common in these settings, and how can healthcare professionals advise people on the relevant issues like lifestyle change without making stigma worse?   Nick - So Matthew touched on it earlier in terms of stigma around when people are diagnosed with diabetes, they are blamed and shamed “that it's your fault.” But then, it's also perpetuated after diagnosis, and healthcare professionals putting blame and shame on patients for, quote, "being uncontrolled." And there's a marker, the A1C, which many healthcare professionals use. And we report EDIS rates in terms of quality improvement. And A1C less than 9% is how the health system separates out between people who are, quote, "controlled or uncontrolled." And the majority of people living with type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes have A1Cs that are greater than 7%, and they're not able to meet the targets. And so we, as healthcare professionals, need to become more explicit in working to overcome these implicit biases we label our patients as uncontrolled and perpetuating this stigma. A couple examples of what we can do in the healthcare professional setting is focusing on our language. And diaTribe has a great resource on their website, or you can look at the dstigmatize.org website to watch a couple video clips and really understand how language matters. So not labeling someone as diabetic, but they're a person living with diabetes before diabetic. They don't have good or bad blood sugar control. Their numbers are high, their numbers are low. Using descriptives, not saying, "Let's test someone's blood sugar," but checking someone's blood sugar. They're not on trial for their diabetes. And I think us as healthcare professionals need to realize when the majority of people living with diabetes aren't able to meet targets, it's not their fault. It's our fault. It's the delivery of healthcare that's failing, and it's not the patients who are failing. And we need to be more empathetic to them. And then, when it relates to obesity, similarly, when almost 50% of adults in the US are obese, and more than half are obese and overweight, we need to stop labeling them as obese and their fault when it's the majority of people who have this. I just had a colleague in the healthcare professional arena come to me last week, he said, "Nick, you know what? They put obesity on my diagnosis, I'm so upset." And this is someone who is trying to address their weight and get newer medications that help address the weight. But the healthcare professionals said, "No, you need to try more." So I think we need to change our approach of how we label our patients, and how we approach them with this blame and shame.   Well, and it's easy to see how people who feel stigmatized and have difficulty in the medical settings with the healthcare professionals they're interacting with would be more likely to avoid care, and that could exacerbate their condition. So let me ask this, do you see any signs that this issue is being addressed in the medical profession? Does it come up in med school training? Is it part of continuing education? Is it on the radar anywhere?   Nick - I wish it was more systematically. I think maybe at some institutions where there are champions for people living with diabetes, where a student might get a lecture, but unfortunately, I don't see it there. And I think that's what's so exciting about diaTribe dStigmatize initiative is really to get more broader reach and get the basics. So in medical school, we get into all these details in terms of cause of diabetes and medications. But I think if we could just back up on the humanistic level and know how to talk to people with chronic conditions, we'll train the next generation of leaders much more humanistically and have better outcomes if we can focus on the basics of how to interact with people living with chronic conditions, and getting rid of this blame.   It sure would be nice to see some of those things happen. So I'd like to ask a question of both of you. So it's clear that addressing diabetes stigma is a complex challenge. So what does diaTribe think needs to happen to begin combating this problem? And, Matthew, let's start with you.   Mathew - Thank you both so much for mentioning dStigmatize; that's what we're really excited about. We just launched this online resource that we hope is going to be the first step, because when we started to look at what is the landscape of resources out there for someone who wants to make sure that they are able to understand what the problem is and how to address it, there really was no centralized location. So what we wanted to do is bring resources together to make it a one-stop shop that anyone who wanted to learn about how to identify this form of stigma, why it might be harmful, or hear the real life stories from people with diabetes, about their condition, and about how stigma has affected them, that they would be able to do that in this one place. And we launched this resource primarily because we think that there's two very essential first steps that we need to take. And the first is that in order to address this public issue, we have to shift away from that really pervasive blame and shame mindset, right? So we want to reframe the way that people are thinking about diabetes, so that it's viewed as this complex, but manageable condition that nobody asks for. And not that it's somehow a failure of personal responsibility. So part of that has been that we've been really grateful that so many members of the diabetes community have been so open to sharing their stories because it's really helping us paint a picture of what diabetes actually looks like, and the ways that stigma affects people on a day-to-day basis. And then, the second part that our website really addresses is that language. And so leaders like Jane Dickinson, Susan Guzman, and Jane Speight have all been really key in making sure that language is seen as one of those tenets when it comes to addressing diabetes stigma, that the words that we're using to talk about diabetes currently lack that kind of awareness, and consideration, and even empathy at times. But because language matters and it has real impacts on the way that people with diabetes view themselves, how healthcare providers view people with diabetes, and how the general public views them, we wanted to create very specific language guidance directed at people who might write, or talk, or communicate about diabetes in some way, that encourages them to use words and phrases that are neutral, that are nonjudgmental. And at its very core, that are based on the facts, and actions, and physiology or biology that can actually help people, right? We want to get away from using all those terms that Nick was talking about like bad glucose levels or controlling their diabetes, because those just aren't actually factual when it comes down to it. Looking forward, dStigmatize is just the first step. We think that there's so many other initiatives aimed at getting more research funding to really explore this issue and its impacts. We think that there's the potential for media advocacy campaigns, similar to what GLAD did at the beginning of the LGBTQ Civil Rights Movements in addressing the negative representation of people who are LGBTQ in the media that a similar thing could be done because there's so many negative portrayals of diabetes and inaccurate portrayals in the media. And then, finally, the campaigns that influence the general public's attitudes towards diabetes. One of the key next steps might be influencing healthcare providers' interactions because like both of you said, we know that the research shows that this is a key area where people are experiencing stigma. And this is also a group that I think truly wants to make sure that their patients are feeling empathy, and that they're able to help them in any way that we can. And so I know that this actually is a very specific intervention that Nick has been doing a lot of work around and can speak to the importance of.   It's a very comprehensive effort you're discussing. So Nick, what would you like to add to that?   Nick – Yes, so, I'm a hyperspecialist in pediatric endocrinology, and there's just not enough adult endocrinologists or pediatric endocrinologists to care for people living with diabetes. And we just need to recognize that frontline healthcare professionals have more of an opportunity, more touch points to make a difference than a specialist like me. And we really must do everything to support frontline healthcare professionals in overcoming diabetes stigma. So as founding director of the ECHO Diabetes Action Network formed to combat system failures in our society in how we educate clinician and approaches to medical management for people with diabetes. And we're seeking to democratize diabetes specialty knowledge, so they can reach frontline healthcare professionals and power underserved populations living with diabetes. So an example of the efforts to target frontline healthcare professionals and improve care, we've launched a monthly educational series focusing on diabetes and disparities in the primary care setting. And then, the initial focus was attention to CKD and diabetes, and we're going to be moving focus areas moving forward. And we'll do a block on cardiometabolic issues, and obesity-related diabetes disparities. And then, also, we'll collaborate with diaTribe on launching one for addressing diabetes stigma and behavioral health, just to name a few. So for more information, feel free to visit echodiabetes.org, and join us for being a champion for people living with diabetes in the primary care setting.   Bios   Matthew Garza is the Managing Editor of DiaTribe. Matthew Garza joined the diaTribe Foundation in 2020 after graduating with honors from Johns Hopkins University's Whiting School of Engineering where he majored in Biomedical Engineering and minored in the Study of Women, Gender, and Sexuality. As an undergraduate Matthew was heavily involved in research, working in the Hopkins Translational Tissue Engineering Center. His research focused primarily on stem cells, three-dimensional matrix scaffolds, and surgical outcomes for transgender patients. He has a passion for understanding more about the socioeconomic determinants of health and how they affect health outcomes, primarily for the LGBTQ population. Matthew swam for the Hopkins varsity swim team and was the president of the Student Athlete Advisory Committee and Hopkins's Athlete Ally chapter. He enjoys swimming, running, hiking, and backpacking in his free time and he will never turn down the opportunity to eat good food or listen to good music.   Dr. Nicolas Cuttriss is a social entrepreneur and a practicing pediatric endocrinologist and public health professional with a unique dedication to health disparities and improving the quality of life of people living with diabetes. He currently serves as Founding Director and CEO of the ECHO Diabetes Action Network after serving as Director of Project ECHO Diabetes and Project ECHO Diabetes in the Time of COVID-19 at Stanford University. Prior to joining Stanford, Dr. Cuttriss served as the first pediatric endocrinologist for the University of New Mexico Project ECHO Institute ENDO teleECHO clinic to democratize diabetes specialty knowledge by empowering primary care providers to care for patients with complex diabetes who lack access to routine diabetes specialty care. Clinically, Dr. Cuttriss founded and serves as Medical Director for ENDO Diabetes & Wellness, a medical practice specializing in diabetes and telehealth where he also supports and consults with medical groups and hospital systems around the country to address barriers to routine diabetes specialty care. Dr. Cuttriss also serves as co-Founder & Chairman of the Board of AYUDA (American Youth Understanding Diabetes Abroad), a 501c3 global health volunteer organization that empowers youth to serve as agents of change in diabetes communities aboard.

About NickNick Heudecker leads market strategy and competitive intelligence at Cribl, the observability pipeline company. Prior to Cribl, Nick spent eight years as an industry analyst at Gartner, covering data and analytics. Before that, he led engineering and product teams at multiple startups, with a bias towards open source software and adoption, and served as a cryptologist in the US Navy. Join Corey and Nick as they discuss the differences between observability and monitoring, why organizations struggle to get value from observability data, why observability requires new data management approaches, how observability pipelines are creating opportunities for SRE and SecOps teams, the balance between budgets and insight, why goats are the world's best mammal, and more.Links: Cribl: https://cribl.io/ Cribl Community: https://cribl.io/community Twitter: https://twitter.com/nheudecker Try Cribl hosted solution: https://cribl.cloud TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted episode is a bit fun because I'm joined by someone that I have a fair bit in common with. Sure, I moonlight sometimes as an analyst because I don't really seem to know what that means, and he spent significant amounts of time as a VP analyst at Gartner. But more importantly than that, a lot of the reason that I am the way that I am is that I spent almost a decade growing up in Maine, and in Maine, there's not a lot to do other than sit inside for the nine months of winter every year and develop personality problems.You've already seen what that looks like with me. Please welcome Nick Heudecker, who presumably will disprove that, but maybe not. He is currently a senior director of market strategy and competitive intelligence at Cribl. Nick, thanks for joining me.Nick: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning. I like playing with people's titles, and you certainly have a lofty one. ‘competitive intelligence' feels an awful lot like jeopardy. What am I missing?Nick: Well, I'm basically an internal analyst at the company. So, I spend a lot of time looking at the broader market, seeing what trends are happening out there; looking at what kind of thought leadership content that I can create to help people discover Cribl, get interested in the products and services that we offer. So, I'm mostly—you mentioned my time in Maine. I was a cryptologist in the Navy and I spent almost all of my time focused on what the bad guys do. And in this job, I focus on what our potential competitors do in the market. So, I'm very externally focused. Does that help? Does that explain it?Corey: No, it absolutely does. I mean, you folks have been sponsoring our nonsense for which we thank you, but the biggest problem that I have with telling the story of Cribl was that originally—initially it was, from my perspective, “What is this hokey nonsense?” And then I learned and got an answer and then finish the sentence with, “And where can I buy it?” Because it seems that the big competitive threat that you have is something crappy that some rando sysadmin has cobbled together. And I say that as the rando sysadmin, who has cobbled a lot of things like that together. And it's awful. I wasn't aware you folks had direct competitors.Nick: Today we don't. There's a couple that it might be emerging a little bit, but in general, no, it's mostly us, and that's what I analyze every day. Are there other emerging companies in the space? Are there open-source projects? But you're right, most of the things that we compete against are DIY today. Absolutely.Corey: In your previous role, which you were at for a very long time in tech terms—which in a lot of other cases is, “Okay, that doesn't seem that long,” but seven and a half years is a respectable stint at a company. And you were at Gartner doing a number of analyst-like activities. Let's start at the beginning because I assure you, I'm asking this purely for the audience and not because I don't know the answer myself, but what exactly is the purpose of an analyst firm, of which Gartner is the most broadly known and, follow up, why do companies care what Gartner thinks?Nick: Yeah. It's a good question, one that I answer a lot. So, what is the purpose of an analyst firm? The purpose of an analyst firm is to get impartial information about something, whether that is supply chain technology, big data tech, human resource management technologies. And it's often difficult if you're an end-user and you're interested in say, acquiring a new piece of technology, what really works well, what doesn't.And so the analyst firm because in the course of a given year, I would talk to nearly a thousand companies and both end-users and vendors as well as investors about what they're doing, what challenges they're having, and I would distill that down into 30-minute conversations with everyone else. And so we provided impartial information in aggregate to people who just wanted to help. And that's the purpose of an analyst firm. Your second question, why do people care? Well, I didn't get paid by vendors.I got paid by the company that I worked for, and so I got to be Tron; I fought for the users. And because I talk to so many different companies in different geographies, in different industries, and I share that information with my colleagues, they shared with me, we had a very robust understanding of what's actually happening in any technology market. And that's uncommon kind of insight to really have in any kind of industry. So, that's the purpose and that's why people care.Corey: It's easy from the engineering perspective that I used to inhabit to make fun of it. It's oh, it's purely justification when you're making a big decision, so if it goes sideways—because find me a technology project that doesn't eventually go sideways—I want to be able to make sure that I'm not the one that catches heat for it because Gartner said it was good. They have an amazing credibility story going on there, and I used to have that very dismissive perspective. But the more I started talking to folks who are Gartner customers themselves and some of the analyst-style things that I do with a variety of different companies, it's turned into, “No, no. They're after insight.”Because it turns out, from my perspective at least, the more that you are focused on building a product that solves a problem, you sort of lose touch with the broader market because the only people you're really talking to are either in your space or have already acknowledged and been right there and become your customer and have been jaded to see things from your point of view. Getting a more objective viewpoint from an impartial third party does have value.Nick: Absolutely. And I want you to succeed, I want you to be successful, I want to carry on a relationship with all the clients that I would speak with, and so one of the fun things I would always ask is, “Why are you asking me this question now?” Sometimes it would come in, they'd be very innocuous;, “Compare these databases,” or, “Compare these cloud services.” “Well, why are you asking?” And that's when you get to, kind of like, the psychology of it.“Oh, we just hired a new CIO and he or she hates vendor X, so we have to get rid of it.” “Well, all right. Let's figure out how we solve this problem for you.” And so it wasn't always just technology comparisons. Technology is easy, you write a check and you hope for the best.But when you're dealing with large teams and maybe a globally distributed company, it really comes down to culture, and personality, and all the harder factors. And so it was always—those were always the most fun and certainly the most challenging conversations to have.Corey: One challenge that I find in this space is—in my narrow niche of the world where I focus on AWS bills, where things are extraordinarily yes or no, black or white, binary choices—that I talked to companies, like during the pandemic, and they were super happy that, “Oh, yeah. Our infrastructure has auto-scaling and it works super well.” And I look at the bill and the spend graph over time is so flat you could basically play a game of pool on top of it. And I don't believe that I'm talking to people who are lying to me. I truly don't believe that people make that decision, but what they believe versus what is evidenced in reality are not necessarily congruent. How do you disambiguate from the stories that people want to tell about themselves? And what they're actually doing?Nick: You have to unpack it. I think you have to ask a series of questions to figure out what their motivation is. Who else is on the call, as well? I would sometimes drop into a phone call and there would be a dozen people on the line. Those inquiry calls would go the worst because everyone wants to stake a claim, everyone wants to be heard, no one's going to be honest with you or with anyone else on the call.So, you typically need to have a pretty personal conversation about what does this person want to accomplish, what does the company want to accomplish, and what are the factors that are pushing against what those things are? It's like a novel, right? You have a character, the character wants to achieve something, and there are multiple obstacles in that person's way. And so by act five, ideally everything wraps up and it's perfect. And so my job is to get the character out of the tree that is on fire and onto the beach where the person can relax.So, you have to unpack a lot of different questions and answers to figure out, well, are they telling me what their boss wants to hear or are they really looking for help? Sometimes you're successful, sometimes you're not. Not everyone does want to be open and honest. In other cases, you would have a team show up to a call with maybe a junior engineer and they really just want you to tell them that the junior engineer's architecture is not a good idea. And so you do a lot of couples therapy as well. I don't know if this is really answering the question for you, but there are no easy answers. And people are defensive, they have biases, companies overall are risk-averse. I think you know this.Corey: Oh, yeah.Nick: And so it can be difficult to get to the bottom of what their real motivation is.Corey: My approach has always been that if you want serious data, you go talk to Gartner. If you want [anec-data 00:09:48] and some understanding, well, maybe we can have that conversation, but they're empowering different decisions at different levels, and that's fine. To be clear, I do not consider Gartner to be a competitor to what I do in any respect. It turns out that I am not very good at drawing charts in varying shades of blue and positioning things just so with repeatable methodology, and they're not particularly good at having cartoon animals as their mascot that they put into ridiculous situations. We each have our portion of the universe, and that's working out reasonably well.Nick: Well, and there's also something to unpack there as well because I would say that people look at Gartner and they think they have a lot of data. To a certain degree they do, but a lot of it is not quantifiable data. If you look at a firm like IDC, they specialize in—like, they are a data house; that is what they do. And so their view of the world and how they advise their clients is different. So, even within analyst firms, there is differentiation in what approach they take, how consultative they might be with their clients, one versus another. So, there certainly are differences that you could find the more exposure you get into the industry.Corey: For a while, I've been making a recurring joke that Route 53—Amazon's managed DNS service—is in fact a database. And then at some point, I saw a post on Reddit where someone said, “Yeah, I see the joke and it's great, but why should I actually not do this?” At which point I had to jump in and say, “Okay, look. Jokes are all well and good, but as soon as people start taking me seriously, it's very much time to come clean.” Because I think that's the only ethical and responsible thing to do in this ecosystem.Similarly, there was another great joke once upon a time. It was an April Fool's Day prank, and Google put out a paper about this thing they called MapReduce. Hilarious prank that Yahoo fell for hook, line, and sinker, and wound up building Hadoop out of it and we're still paying the price for that, years later. You have a bit of a reputation from your time at Gartner as being—and I quote—“The man who killed Hadoop.” What happened there? What's the story? And I appreciate your finally making clear to the rest of us that it was, in fact, a joke. What happened there?Nick: Well, one of the pieces of research that Gartner puts out every year is this thing called a Hype Cycle. And we've all seen it, it looks like a roller coaster in profile; big mountain goes up really high and then comes down steeply, drops into a valley, and then—Corey: ‘the trough of disillusionment,' as I recall.Nick: Yes, my favorite. And then plateaus out. And one of the profiles on that curve was Hadoop distributions. And after years of taking inquiry calls, and writing documents, and speaking with everybody about what they were doing, we realized that this really isn't taking off like everyone thinks it is. Cluster sizes weren't getting bigger, people were having a lot of challenges with the complexity, people couldn't find skills to run it themselves if they wanted to.And then the cloud providers came in and said, “Well, we'll make a lot of this really simple for you, and we'll get rid of HDFS,” which is—was a good idea, but it didn't really scale well. I think that the challenge of having to acquire computers with compute storage and memory again, and again, and again, and again, just was not sustainable for the majority of enterprises. And so we flagged it as this will be obsolete before plateau. And at that point, we got a lot of hate mail, but it just seemed like the right decision to make, right? Once again, we're Tron; we fight for the users.And that seemed like the right advice and direction to provide to the end-users. And so didn't make a lot of friends, but I think I was long-term right about what happened in the Hadoop space. Certainly, some fragments of it are left over and we're still seeing—you know, Spark is going strong, there's a lot of Hive still around, but Hadoop as this amalgamation of open-source projects, I think is effectively dead.Corey: I sure hope you're right. I think it has a long tail like most things that are there. Legacy is the condescending engineering term for ‘it makes money.' You were at Gartner for almost eight years and then you left to go work at Cribl. What triggered that? What was it that made you decide, “This is great. I've been here a long time. I've obviously made it work for me. I'm going to go work at a startup that apparently, even though it recently raised a $200 million funding round”—congratulations on that, by the way—“It still apparently can't afford to buy a vowel in its name.” That's C-R-I-B-L because, of course, it is. Maybe another consonant, while you're shopping. But okay, great. It's oddly spelled, it is hard to explain in some cases, to folks who are not already feeling pain in that space. What was it that made you decide to sit up and, “All right, this is where I want to be?”Nick: Well, I met the co-founders when I was an analyst. They were working at Splunk and oddly enough—this is going to be an interesting transition compared to the previous thing we talked about—they were working on Hunk, which was, let's use HDFS to store Splunk data. Made a lot of sense, right? It could be much more cost-effective than high-cost infrastructure for Splunk. And so they told me about this; I was interested.And so I met the co-founders and then I reconnected with them after they left and formed Cribl. And I thought the story was really cool because where they're sitting is between sources and destinations of observability data. And they were solving a problem that all of my customers had, but they couldn't resolve. They would try and build it themselves. They would look at—Kafka was a popular choice, but that had some challenges for observability data—works fantastically well for application data.And they were just—had a very pragmatic view of the world that they were inhabiting and the problem that they were looking to solve. And it looked kind of like a no-brainer of a problem to solve. But when you double-click on it, when you really look down and say, “All right, what are the challenges with doing this?” They're really insurmountable for a lot of organizations. So, even though they may try and take a DIY approach, they often run into trouble after just a few weeks because of all the protocols you have to support, all the different data formats, and all the destinations, and role-based access control, and everything else that goes along with it.And so I really liked the team. I thought the product inhabited a unique space in the market—we've already talked about the lack of competitors in the space—and I just felt like the company was on a rocket ship—or is a rocket ship—that basically had unbounded success potential. And so when the opportunity arose to join the team and do a lot of the things I like doing as an analyst—examining the market, talking to people looking at competitive aspects—I jumped at it.Corey: It's nice when you see those opportunities that show up in front of you, and the stars sort of align. It's like, this is not just something that I'm excited about and enthused about, but hey, they can use me. I can add something to where they're going and help them get there better, faster, sooner, et cetera, et cetera.Nick: When you're an analyst, you look at dozens of companies a month and I'd never seen an opportunity that looked like that. Everything kind of looked the same. There's a bunch of data integration companies, there's a bunch of companies with Spark and things like that, but this company was unique; the product was unique, and no one was really recognizing the opportunity. So, it was just a great set of things that all happen at the same time.Corey: It's always fun to see stars align like that. So—Nick: Yeah.Corey: —help me understand in a way that can be articulated to folks who don't have 15 years of grumpy sysadmin experience under their belts, what does Cribl do?Nick: So, Cribl does a couple of things. Our flagship product is called LogStream, and the easiest way to describe that is as an abstraction between sources and destinations of data. And that doesn't sound very interesting, but if you, from your sysadmin background, you're always dealing with events, logs, now there's traces, metrics are also hanging around—Corey: Oh, and of course, the time is never synchronized with anything either, so it's sort of a giant whodunit, mystery, where half the eyewitnesses lie.Nick: Well, there's that. There's a lot of data silos. If you got an agent deployed on a system, it's only going to talk to one destination platform. And you repeat this, maybe a dozen times per server, and you might have 100,000 or 200,000 servers, with all of these different agents running on it, each one locked into one destination. So, you might want to be able to mix and match that data; you can't. You're locked in.One of the things LogStream does is it lets you do that exact mixing and matching. Another thing that this product does, that LogStream does, is it gives you ability to manage that data. And then what I mean by that is, you may want to reduce how much stuff you're sending into a given platform because maybe that platform charges you by your daily ingest rates or some other kind of event-based charges. And so not all that data is valuable, so why pay to store it if it's not going to be valuable? Just dump it or reduce the amount of volume that you've got in that payload, like a Windows XML log.And so that's another aspect that it allows you to do, better management of that stuff. You can redact sensitive fields, you can enrich the data with maybe, say, GeoIPs so you know what kind of data privacy laws you fall under and so on. And so, the story has always been, land the data in your destination platform first, then do all those things. Well, of course, because that's how they charge you; they charge you based on daily ingest. And so now the story is, make those decisions upfront in one place without having to spread this logic all over, and then send the data where you want it to go.So, that's really, that's the core product today, LogStream. We call ourselves an observability pipeline for observability data. The other thing we've got going on is this project called AppScope, and I think this is pretty cool. AppScope is a black box instrumentation tool that basically resides between the application runtime and the kernel and any shared libraries. And so it provides—without you having to go back and instrument code—it instruments the application for you based on every call that it makes and then can send that data through something like LogStream or to another destination.So, you don't have to go back and say, “Well, I'm going to try and find the source code for this 30-year old c++ application.” I can simply run AppScope against the process, and find out exactly what that application is doing for me, and then relay that information to some other destination.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Liquibase. If you're anything like me, you've screwed up the database part of a deployment so severely that you've been banned from touching every anything that remotely sounds like SQL, at at least three different companies. We've mostly got code deployments solved for, but when it comes to databases we basically rely on desperate hope, with a roll back plan of keeping our resumes up to date. It doesn't have to be that way. Meet Liquibase. It is both an open source project and a commercial offering. Liquibase lets you track, modify, and automate database schema changes across almost any database, with guardrails to ensure you'll still have a company left after you deploy the change. No matter where your database lives, Liquibase can help you solve your database deployment issues. Check them out today at liquibase.com. Offer does not apply to Route 53.Corey: I have to ask because I love what you're doing, don't get me wrong. The counterargument that always comes up in this type of conversation is, “Who in their right mind looks at the state of the industry today and says, ‘You know what we need? That's right; another observability tool.'” what differentiates what you folks are building from a lot of the existing names in the space? And to be clear, a lot of the existing names in the space are treating observability simply as hipster monitoring. I'm not entirely sure they're wrong, but that's a different fight for a different time.Nick: Yeah. I'm happy to come back and talk about that aspect of it, too. What's different about what we're doing is we don't care where the data goes. We don't have a dog in that fight. We want you to have better control over where it goes and what kind of shape it's in when it gets there.And so I'll give an example. One of our customers wanted to deploy a new SIEM—Security Information Event Management—tool. But they didn't want to have to deploy a couple hundred-thousand new agents to go along with it. They already had the data coming in from another agent, they just couldn't get the data to it. So, they use LogStream to send that data to their new desired platform.Worked great. They were able to go from zero to a brand new platform in just a couple days, versus fighting with rolling out agents and having to update them. Did they conflict with existing agents? How much performance did it impact on the servers, and so on? So, we don't care about the destination. We like everybody. We're agnostic when it comes to where that data goes. And—Corey: Oh, it's not about the destination. It's about the journey. Everyone's been saying it, but you've turned it into a product.Nick: It's very spiritual. So, we [laugh] send, we send your observability data on a spiritual [laugh] journey to its destination, and we can do quite a bit with it on the way.Corey: So, you said you offered to go back as well and visit the, “Oh, it's monitoring, but we're going to call it observability because otherwise we get yelled out on Twitter by Charity Majors.” How do you view that?Nick: Monitoring is the things you already know. Right? You know what questions you want to ask, you get an alert if something goes out of bounds or something goes from green to red. Think about monitoring as a data warehouse. You shape your data, you get it all in just the right condition so you can ask the same question over and over again, over different time domains.That's how I think about monitoring. It's prepackaged, you know exactly what you want to do with it. Observability is more like a data lake. I have no idea what I'm going to do with this stuff. I think there's going to be some signals in here that I can use, and I'm going to go explore that data.So, if monitoring is your known knowns, observability is your unknown unknowns. So, an ideal observability solution gives you an opportunity to discover what those are. Once you discover them. Great. Now, you can talk about how to get them into your monitoring system. So, for me, it's kind of a process of discovery.Corey: Which makes an awful lot of sense. The problem I've always had with the monitoring approach is it falls into this terrible pattern of enumerate the badness. In other words, “Imagine all the ways that this system can fail,” and then build an alerting that lets you know when any of those things happen. And what happens next is inevitable to anyone who's ever dealt with the tricksy devils known as computers, and what happens, of course, is that they find new ways to fail and you generally get to add to the list of things to check for, usually at two o'clock in the morning.Nick: On a Sunday.Corey: Oh, absolutely. It almost doesn't matter when. The real problem is when these things happen, it's, “What day, actually, is it?” And you have to check the calendar to figure out because your third time that week being woken up in the dead of night. It's like an infant but less than endearing.So, that has been the old school approach, and there's unfortunately still an awful lot of, we'll just call it nonsense, in the industry that still does exactly the same thing, except now they call it observability because—hearkening back to earlier in our conversation—there's a certain point in the Gartner Hype Cycle that we are all existing within. What's the deal with that?Nick: Well, I think that there are a lot of entrenched interests in the monitoring space. And so I think you always see this when a new term comes around. Vendors will say, “All right, well, there's a lot of confusion about this. Let me back-fit my product into this term so that I can continue to look like I'm on the leading edge and I'm not going to put any of my revenues in jeopardy.” I know, that's a cynical view, but I've seen it over and over again.And I think that's unfortunate because there's a real opportunity to have a better understanding of your systems, to better understand what's happening in all the containers you're deploying and not tearing down the way that you should, to better understand what's happening in distributed systems. And it's going to be a real missed opportunity if that is what happens. If we just call this ‘Monitoring 2.0' it's going to leave a lot of unrealized potential in the market.Corey: The big problem that I've seen in a lot of different areas is—I'll be direct—consolidation where you have a company that starts to do a thing—and that's great—and then they start doing other things that are tied to it. And in turn, they start, I guess, gathering everything in the ecosystem. If you break down observability into various constituent parts, I—know, I know, the pillars thing is going to upset people; ignore that for now—and if you have an offering that's weak in a particular area, okay, instead of building it organically into the product, or saying, “Yeah, that's not what we do,” there's an instinct to acquire a company or build that functionality out. And it turns out that we're building what feels the lot to me like the SaaS equivalent of multifunction printers: they can print, they can scan, they can fax, and none of those three very well, so it winds up with something that dissatisfies everyone, rather than a best-of-breed solution that has a very clear and narrow starting and stopping point. How do you view that?Nick: Well, what you've described is a compromise, right? A compromise is everyone can work and no one's happy. And I think that's the advantage of where LogStream comes in. The reality is best-of-breed. Most enterprises today have 30 or more different monitoring tools—call them observability tools if you want to—and you will never pry those tools from the dead hands of those sysadmins, DevOps engineers, SREs, et cetera.They all integrate those tools into how they work and their processes. So, we're living in a best-of-breed world. It's like that in data and analytics—my former beat—and it's like that in monitoring and observability. People really gravitate towards the tools they like, they gravitate towards the tools their friends are using. And so you need a way to be able to mix and match that stuff.And just because I want to stay [laugh] on message, that's really where the LogStream story kind of blends in because we do that; we allow you to mix and match all those different pieces.Corey: Joke's on you. I use Nagios and I have no friends. I'm not convinced those two things are entirely unrelated, but here we are. So here's, I guess, the big burning question that a lot of folks—certainly not me, but other undefined folks, ‘lots of people are saying'—so you built something interesting that actually works. I want to be clear on this.I have spoken to customers of yours. They swear by it instead of swearing at it, which happens with other companies. Awesome. You have traction, you're moving forward, things are going great. Here's $200 million is the next part of that story, and on some level, my immediate reaction—which does need updating, let's be clear here—is like, all right.I'm trying to build a product. I can see how I could spend a few million bucks. “Well, what can you do with I don't know, 100 times that?” My easy answer is, “Something monstrous.” I don't believe that is the case here. What is the growth plan? What are you doing that makes having that kind of a war chest a useful and valuable thing to have?Nick: Well, if you speak with the co-founders—and they've been open about this—we view ourselves as a generational company. We're not just building one product. We've been thinking about, how do we deliver on observability as this idea of discovery? What does that take? And it doesn't mean that we're going to be less agnostic to other destinations, we still think there's an incredible amount of value there and that's not going away, but we think there's maybe an interim step that we build out, potentially this idea of an observability data lake where you can explore these environments.Certainly, there's other types of options in the space today. Most of them are SQL-based, which is interesting because the audience that uses monitoring and observability tools couldn't care less about SQL right? They want search, they want regex, and so you've got to have the right tool for that audience. And so we're thinking about what that looks like going forward. We're doubling down on people.Surprisingly, this is a very—like anything else in software, it is people-intensive. And so certainly those are other aspects that we're exploring with the recent investment, but definitely, multiproduct company is our future and continued expansion.Corey: Expansion is always a fun one. It's the idea of, great, are you looking at going deeper into the areas you're already active within, or is it more of a, “Ah, so we've solved the, effectively, log routing problem. That's great. Let's solve other problems, too.” Or is it more of a, I guess, a doubling down and focusing on what's working? And again, that probably sounds judgmental in a way I don't intend it to at all. I just have a hard time contextualizing that level of scale coming from a small company perspective the way that I do.Nick: Yeah. Our plan is to focus more intently on the areas that we're in. We have a huge basis of experience there. We don't want to be all things to all people; that dilutes the message down to nothing, so we want to be very specific in the audiences we talk to, the problems we're trying to solve, and how we try to solve them.Corey: The problem I've always found with a lot of the acquisition, growth thrashing of—let me call it what I think it is: companies in decline trying to strain relevancy, it feels almost like a, “We don't see a growth strategy. So, we're going to try and acquire everything that hold still long enough, at some level, trying to add more revenue to the pile, but also thrashing in the sense of, okay. They're going to teach us how to do things in creative, awesome ways,” but it never works out that way. When you have a 50,000 person company acquiring a 200 person company, invariably the bigger culture is going to dominate. And I don't understand why that mistake seems to continually happen again, and again, and again.And people think I'm effectively alluding to—or whenever the spoken word version of subtweeting is—a particular company or a particular acquisition. I'm absolutely not, there are probably 50 different companies listening right now who thinks, “Oh, God. He's talking about us.” It's the common repeating trend. What is that?Nick: It's hard to say. In some cases, these acquisitions might just be talent. “We need to know how to do X. They know how to do X. Let's do it.” They may have very unique niche technology or software that another company thinks they can more broadly apply.Also, some of these big companies, these may not be board-level or CEO-level decisions. A business unit might decide, “Oh, I like what that company is doing. I'm going to go acquire it.” And so it looks like MegaCorp bought TinyCorp, but it's really, this tiny business unit within MegaCorp bought tiny company. The reality is often different from what it looks like on the outside.So, that's one way. Another is, you know, if they're going to teach us to be more effective with tech or something like that, you're never going to beat culture. You're never going to be the existing culture. If it's 50,000, against 200, obviously we know who wins there. And so I don't know if that's realistic.I don't know if the big companies are genuine when they say that, but it could just be the messaging that they use to make people happy and hopefully retain as many of those new employees for as long as they can. Does that make sense?Corey: No, it makes perfect sense. It's the right answer. It does articulate what is happening there, and I think I keep falling prey to the same failure. And it's hard. It's pernicious, but companies are not monolithic entities.There's no one person at all of these companies each who is making these giant unilateral decisions. It's always some product manager or some particular person who has a vision and a strategy in the department. It is not something that the company board is agreeing on every little decision that gets made. They're distributed entities in many respects.Nick: Absolutely. And that's only getting more pervasive as companies get larger [laugh] through acquisition. So, you're going to see more and more of that, and so it's going to look like we're going to put one label on it, one brand. Often, I think internally, that's the exact opposite of what actually happened, how that decision got made.Corey: Nick, I want to thank you for taking so much time to speak with me about what you're up to over there, how your path has shaped, how you view the world, and also what Cribl does these days. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, how you think about the world, or even possibly going to work at Cribl which, having spoken to a number of people over there, I would endorse it. How do they find you?Nick: Best place to find us is by joining our community: cribl.io/community, and Cribl is spelled C-R-I-B-L. You can certainly reach out there, we've got about 2300 people in our community Slack, so it's a great group. You can also reach out to me on Twitter, I'm @nheudecker, N-H-E-U-D-E-C-K-E-R. Tell me what you thought of the episode; love to hear it. And then beyond that, you can also sign up for our free cloud tier at cribl.cloud. It's a pretty generous one terabyte a day processing, so you can start to send data in and send it wherever you'd like to be.Corey: To be clear, this free as in beer, not free as an AWS free tier?Nick: This is free as in beer.Corey: Excellent. Excellent.Nick: I think I'm getting that right. I think it's free as in beer. And the other thing you can try is our hosted solution on AWS, fully managed cloud at cribl.cloud, we offer a free one terabyte per day processing, so you can start to send data into that environment and send it wherever you'd like to go, in whatever shape that data needs to be in when it gets there.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:35:21]. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.Nick: No, thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.Corey: Nick Heudecker, senior director, market strategy and competitive intelligence at Cribl. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment explaining that the only real reason a startup should raise a $200 million funding round is to pay that month's AWS bill.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Fire extinguishers, airbags in your car, and smoke alarms in your house are all examples of things in life that don't really seem to matter until they're the only thing that matters. On that rare occasion when you need one of those items, you'll either be very glad that you have one, or really regretting the fact that you don't. Let's talk about some of the things in the financial world that don't matter until they do. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey everybody, welcome in to another edition of the podcast. This is Retirement Planning - Redefined, with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. And we're going to chat today about some things that don't matter, well, until they do. And I've got some pretty good examples of that, so we're going to get into that in just a second. But I don't know, Nick, I feel like I should pick on you a little bit. Things that don't matter until they do, is that the Buffalo Bills again this year or what?   Nick: Those are fighting words. It's a good thing we're in a different state. Now, what's your football team?   Mark: I just had to pick on you because of the whole Tom Brady thing. I was going to talk to you about it, so you just couldn't get away from this guy, right? He was kicking your butt in New England, then he comes down in your backyard and still knocks your team out. I actually felt for you this past playoff, so.   Nick: Yeah, it's all good. We've got a real quarterback now so I'm okay with it.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: I'm not a complete...   Mark: My team is total garbage, so you can pick on me all day long, so it's no worries. My team is the laughingstock of the NFL pretty much on a regular basis.   John: Are you a Panthers fan?   Mark: That's close. You think I would be because, same thing with you guys, I'm next to the Panthers so you think I would be. But no, I'm a Cowboys fan. Yeah. It's the worst.   Nick: Nah. Trust me. It's not the worst.   Mark: We get a lot of flack for Cowboys fans. That's for sure.   Nick: Yeah, but it's not the worst.   Mark: Gotcha. John, what about you? Do you pull for anybody?   John: The Patriots.   Mark: Oh my God. Wait, what? Oh my gosh, you two must have really gone back and forth.   John: Yeah, I grew up in right outside of the Boston.   Mark: That's right, I remember that now yeah. So you guys have had some fun times over the last few years, haven't you?   Nick: John used to ask me to watch games-   John: He refuses.   Nick: I couldn't be around. I couldn't be around people in public watching the game, but now that they're a little bit better-   Mark: They had a great year last year, they really did, so.   Nick: They made the playoffs three out of the last four years.   Mark: Yeah, they did. They're definitely on the run. So I just had to give you a little bit of a hard time, but it's all good. It's all good.   Mark: So listen, things that don't matter until they do. So here's some real examples, like a fire extinguisher, right? Who thinks about a fire extinguisher until you need one? Or the airbags in your car or smoke alarms in your house, all these things we just don't pay any attention to until we actually really need one. And then we're awfully glad that they're there.   Mark: So I've got a couple of these financially speaking fellas. So talk to us about the importance of why these things can be kind of out of sight, out of mind. But man, we really need to have those ducks in a row. And let's just start with an easy one, legal documents, right? Won't matter until they do, but when you need it, man you're going to be glad you've got it in place, and right.   John: Yeah, this is a great example of that. And where when you're living and this happens is you have some type of health event and I just had a family member who just got an accident and healthcare surrogate had to step up and make some decisions and help them out during that process. So that's something that you really need to consider doing some of these things. Meeting with an attorney that's qualified to do this stuff, to make sure that your ducks are in a row.   John: And the unfortunate one where it's too late is if you pass away and then now your beneficiaries are dealing with whatever estate, whether it's trust, wills, documents that you did or didn't do. I'll tell you from Nick and I have helped a lot of clients kind of navigate that, if it's not done correctly it can be a nightmare for your beneficiaries just to figure out where everything is and who is responsible.   Mark: Yeah. And it's one of those things that's easily avoidable, right Nick? I mean, this is not that hard to fix. This is, of the low hanging fruit that can be out there, you can do this stuff pretty easy. Especially things like beneficiary designation, updating those, so on and so forth. Wills and trusts, sure, they can be a little more complicated, but even that it's not that complex. You've just got to get with an advisor and an attorney.   Nick: Yeah. What we've seen is that often times people don't personally know an attorney or somebody in this space that can help them. Or, if they do, they're private and they don't necessarily want them to know everything about them. Or we'll see people that just... It makes them extremely uncomfortable to talk about death, dying and, or being sick.   Nick: And so it's a classic avoidance behavior. And like we had talked about previously, time flies and all of a sudden it's five or 10 years later, and your mom and dad that you've had listed as the beneficiaries are no longer alive and kids are grown up or you had another child that's not listed anywhere. Or maybe you got divorced or remarried.   Nick: All these things happen and if the documents aren't in place or they're lagging and inaccurate, it can turn into quite a quagmire if something happens. And I'll say this too, is oftentimes when people think of the legal documents, they think of death and not necessarily what John referred to as far as healthcare proxy and a power of attorney, those sorts of things where there's a health event and you're still alive, but you need help making decisions and that can really get pretty squirrely.   Mark: No, I agree with you. And I think the other one we hear sometimes too as well, is, that's for rich people, right? A trust is for rich people or so on and so forth. And it's like, okay, that's not really the case. And it's really not as expensive to get some of this stuff taken care of as we often think it is. I think we build it up in our mind or whatever. We just kind of have this, oh, that's for rich folks or it costs too much money so I'm just going to avoid it. Pretty easy to handle this stuff.   Nick: Yeah, I would say that's accurate, as well as, and we've talked about the run-up in the markets over the last five or 10 years. There's a lot of people that, seven, eight years ago they maybe had a third of the money that they have now. And so they still kind of are in the same train of thought or the same thought process. And they don't realize maybe what they perceive... They still think of themselves in that same way as they did eight to 10 years or even 15 years ago. And there's a little bit of disbelief. And so it kind of leads into kind of procrastinating and you almost have to kind of take stock and realize, okay, hey, this is something I really need to get done.   Mark: Yeah, exactly.   Mark: Well, that's hopefully what we try to provide here on the podcast is there's a little useful nuggets of information that might spark that conversation. And speaking of which, John, life insurance, not something that you're really popping up at the dinner table saying, "Hey, let's have a rousing conversation about life insurance." Right? It doesn't kind of go that way. But, again it's one of those things that don't seem to matter until you need it. And it can be quite important and quite useful tool.   John: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'll say this is probably one of the most disliked conversations for people, is talking about life insurance and what happens after if they were to pass away or a spouse or whoever.   Mark: Right.   John: Especially with children, because when you have kids, and I have two daughters, one of the big things you look at is, I'll use myself as a scenario, I'm gone. So there's my income gone for the next 20, 30 years. So you really want to look at it from that standpoint when you're talking about needs planning for life insurance is... I'm no longer here. My income's no longer providing for my family. How do I replace that? And really life insurance is a great vehicle to go ahead and replace someone's income for a 20, 30 year period. And there's ways to back into what amounts are correct, but definitely something you need to look at when you're doing a plan.   John: And going into retirement can be the same way depending, and Nick mentioned it on the last session where everyone's situation is different. Well we've had scenarios where, there may be still is a need for life insurance in retirement because maybe one person has a heavy pension. And if that person passes away, that pension now is gone. And maybe that's a big requirement for the plan to work.   John: So everyone's situation is different. It's definitely something that needs to be considered. You just want to take a look at it and see what would happen if someone did pass away and there wasn't any life insurance. I'll say a lot of these things that we're going to go over too, I think it's easy to address, there's definitely people that can help you out. And it's just a matter of getting it done. And once it's done it just kind of provides a nice peace of mind that it's kind of like a bandaid, just do it, rip it off.   Mark: There you go. Exactly. I think life insurance too, I will be honest. It's a very important tool even for retirees, there's a lot of ways it can be used. It's not our daddy's Oldsmobile like those old commercials. There's just so many different nuances now to life insurance, where it could be a useful tool for various times of life, but I can't help but thinking of Ned Ryerson and the Groundhog Day movie, when he comes up on Bill Murray, that insurance guy. I think that's what a lot of times people think of when they think life insurance or life insurance agent, and it's just changed so much. But it is a great movie.   Mark: Lifetime income streams. We kind of talk about this fairly often, but I mean, look, it's one of those things maybe you don't think about. You think, well, I've got these accounts, right? I got all this stuff, but how do I turn it into money because I do need money all through my retirement? I need a paycheck coming in.   Nick: Yeah. So, one of the things that we'll say is that in retirement, income is king. Assets are great and assets are the thing that people love to talk about and kind of chat about, but income is king. And I'll say too that everybody knows about social security. They realize in theory it's important, that sort of thing, but many people, and this is something that we'll kind of review with people often, is that they don't quite realize like, well, hey, if your household is getting $60,000 a year in income from social security, which these days, a lot of people are. That is really equivalent to between one and $2 million of nest egg assets from the standpoint of generating a saving [column 00:09:37] , having it last your lifetime and getting inflationary raises.   Nick: So, building a portfolio or an overall strategy where, we've got quite a few clients that they have rental properties, that rental income, they purchased a property a little bit when they're younger. They get the house or the property paid off, and the rental income supplements their income in retirement.   Nick: John referred to pensions, that can be a big deal. Annuities can provide a guaranteed income as well. So, trying to balance forms of guaranteed income with assets can be really important. And just a little caveat to throw in there, although income is king, it is important to have assets. So the reason I say that is we have had some clients come to us that have been, whether it's between social security and pension, they've been income rich and asset poor, and that can also lead to other issues as well. So a good balance is really just like so many other things is really the most important part.   Mark: Well, balance is key, definitely balance is key to anything. And we all know we got to have these different forms of, or we have to have some income coming in, in retirement. But having the multiple streams and turning things on at different times, and whether you want to call it bucket strategies or laddering or whatever the case is, but just having these different various forms to be able to pull from at different times is going to make obviously all the difference in keeping up with our retirement. Because nobody wants to go backwards in their lifestyle in retirement. They want to kind of continue on the way they have been, or maybe even more so in retirement. So that's some things that- go ahead.   Nick: And let me jump in on that too, that point that you made about not going backwards or maintaining is important. Because there are times, and I've had this happen a couple of times, when it comes to retirement and income in retirement and when it comes to life insurance, two of the topics that we talked about, in people's minds they have an enormous amount of confidence that all of a sudden they no longer need any of the things that they've wanted and bought for the last 25 or 30 years. It's like all of a sudden they flip the switch and it's going to be the cheaper food, the cheaper restaurants, the cheaper car-   Mark: I've got plenty of clothes. I don't need to buy any new clothes.   Nick: Yes. And in reality, people don't live like that. And so that's an important-   John: In reality, it's typically the reverse. They have more time on their hands to go buy things.   Mark: Right, yeah. My dad always said every day was a Saturday when he got to retirement and he spends the most money on a Saturday, so, that always stuck with me.   Nick: Yeah most people live in a state of want versus need and it's often, that's a pretty common thing, so anyhow.   Mark: That always stuck with me. That's a great point. Well, I'll tell you what, that's some things that don't matter until they do so, again, whether it's legal documents, pretty easy fix, life insurance, certainly a worthwhile conversation to have no matter what stage of life you're in. And making sure definitely that you've got those income streams set up for life. Some key topics there that we talked about this weekend.   Mark: We're going to take some email questions and wrap up because we want to get back to a couple of these here. We haven't done these lately. And of course, anytime you submit a question, you're going to get your question answered, but to just talk about someone here on the show, we kind of do those from time to time. If you'd like to drop a line, go to pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com or call (813) 286-7776 if you've got some questions for your own situation that you need to get answered, and the guys will certainly tackle those for you.   Mark: But for right now, let's see what we got from Linda who had sent an email question. And guys, she says, "Fellas, my daughter just turned 18 and I'd like to help her get off onto the right foot with some retirement savings. What's a good idea for something to get her started with?"   John: Yeah, I'll take this one. So, we've had this come up quite a bit with some of our clients and their kids, when they turn 18, they want to just get them used to investing or just understanding it which we think is very important. Some of the things we've done, it just depends. If the child is working, we might do a Roth IRA where we'll go ahead and just open up a Roth retirement account. It's a great vehicle for kids because they can tax free money in retirement. They could use it for a first time home purchase, et cetera, et cetera. So we've done that. We've just got to make sure that they're working because you need earned income to contribute to a Roth.   John: If they are not working, there's definitely some kind of joint accounts you can set up, but it's definitely a good thing to do. Because I'll tell you, we've done that for some clients and we've had those kids become clients early, right when they graduate college. And they're pretty aggressive in saving. I have one where, as soon as he graduated he got in touch with me and then just started aggressively saving in his early twenties, which is very uncommon. And now he's early thirties and he has a pretty sizable nest egg. And now he's got kids and all this stuff and he can't save as much because he does not have as much discretionary income. But it really set that foundation for him to really start saving for retirement, understanding how important that is.   Mark: No, I think that's awesome that you're having some people do that, especially at a younger age. And so kudos to her for getting her daughter start off on the right foot. And for people that just in general kind of have that interest. I had a young kid that I knew for a couple of years ago that used to work for me. Same thing. Early on he was very into saving money for his future self, which is fantastic. I think because his parents hadn't done a very good job and so sometimes we see that mental shift, right? Where you see your parents do something and you want to do the opposite and so on and so forth. And in this case, that was a good thing.   Mark: So very cool question. Thanks so much for submitting that. Hopefully that helps you out a little bit and keep listening to the podcast. We certainly appreciate it. And let's do one more guys before we wrap up here, [just 00:15:13] go around, and we've got one from Patty. You guys got to put on your counselor hats here. Patty says, "My husband and I argue almost every day about money because we haven't done a very good job planning for our retirement and it stresses us both out. Is this a normal thing between spouses or do we need some serious help?"   Nick: So I'll jump in on this one. So, there's a couple of things here. So the first thing is that this points out specifically the importance of a plan. And what we mean by that is that when there's not a clear picture of what people actually have, what their life actually looks at, when there's a high amount of uncertainty on the future, that's when there's often anxiety and bickering, arguing those sorts of things when it comes to money.   Nick: And so, step number one is take an inventory, build a plan. So once that's done, if it is truly terrible, then you can fight, but at least let's figure out what's there. But all joking aside, so then the next step is to kind of come to grips with the fact that, hey, we are where we are today. There's nothing that we can do about it. If we can focus on the future and start making decisions that are positive and maybe make some changes that'll be helpful, then that's great.   Nick: From our perspective as advisors, one of our kind of golden rules, and we oftentimes tell clients this is that, we can't care more about your money and your situation than you do. So ultimately it has to start at home and then they have to be willing to take guidance and advice and make changes. And then really what we found is that in 12 to 24 months, the momentum can be significant in a positive way. And things can really swing strongly. And once that happens, it becomes kind of addicting. It's kind of like when you're in your early twenties, for most people maybe they're just starting out at the first job and the first time you started to hit a few thousand dollars in your account that stays in your account, maybe 5,000 is your threshold and you're like, "wow, this is great." I've never had this amount of money in here before.   Nick: And then maybe down the road you hit 10 and as you get older that number changes. And what's interesting is that it also becomes more stressful and you kind of get this hoarding mentality where once you hit these certain thresholds, 50,000, a 100 thousand in your savings account. Once get there and you realize the comfort and the peace of mind that it provides, you never want to go back. And so we like people to kind of get that, to taste that so that they can understand that. And then usually it's full speed ahead.   Mark: Yeah, no, that's a great way of looking at it. My daughter, she's still pretty young but is definitely, she kind of got that. She was constantly just spending her check and spending all her money when she wasn't making too much. And then once she got started getting a decent check in from the Navy and she got a couple of bonuses and she put it in there and she watched her account grow, she was like, "wow, this is-" and so now she's gotten bitten by this bug to kind of see what she can get the number to. She'll message me every so often, "The number is this now. And the number's that now." And so I'm like, "Hey, cool. You're 24 years old. You got a long time for that to grow and compound." So yeah, it definitely can be addicting.   Mark: And of course, if you're closer to retirement and obviously that sounds like that's the case for this question. I think that's a great piece of advice. Find out what you got, get an assessment, get a plan put together, look at it. And then see, you guys might be fighting over nothing too, so think about that. You guys could possibly be in much better shape than you even realize. And therefore you're fighting for [not. 00:18:55]   Mark: So reach out and have a conversation with the guys. Just give him a jingle and call them at (813) 286-7776, or stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. And that's going to do it this week for the podcast. Again, don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, or whatever platform you like to use. You can find it all at the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. For John and Nick, I'm Mark, we'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning - Redefined.   Nick: Go Bills.

So much focus in the financial world revolves around accumulating money. There's all sorts of advice, how- to guides and guardrails in place when it comes to saving and investing, but a lot less resources out there to help retirees navigate the period of time after retirement. This is known as decumulation, the spending down and managing of the assets you've accumulated through your life. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with us here on Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick and myself once again chatting about investing, finance and retirement. We're going to talk about decumulation, five things you must know about decumulation to retire successfully. We're going to get into that in just a second.   Speaker 1: Of course, if you've got some questions, need some help, reach out to John and Nick at PFG Private Wealth. That's PFGprivatewealth.com. That's the website you can stop by at, and gents, what's going on? John, how are you buddy?   John: I'm good, I'm good. I know it's been awhile since I think we've done one of these sessions here.   Speaker 1: Enjoying the summer, I guess, right?   John: Yeah. It's been a busy summer for myself, and Nick can speak to what he's been up to, but yeah, it's definitely been busy. But my little one started kindergarten, so I'm adapting to that life of drop-off car line and pickup, which is fun.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if you remember this movie or not, but do you remember this Michael Keaton movie, Mr. Mom? If you haven't seen it, you should go watch it because you could probably relate to it. The whole car line drop-off thing is hysterical and that was from like the '80s.   John: I'll definitely go check it out.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   John: Yeah. Right now my wife's, she's studying for her boards, so I've been helping out with all that stuff and yeah, it's been interesting.   Speaker 1: It's a great movie. It's a great old '80s movie, but yeah, you could probably really relate to some of this stuff right this minute. Especially when you mentioned that car line thing, it made me think of that because he just, he has the hardest time understanding and getting his mind wrapped around the whole car line thing. It's pretty hilarious. Yeah, definitely check it out.   Speaker 1: Nick, what's going on with you, buddy? I know you've been traveling and running around.   Nick: Yeah. I was a recently up north hometown in Rochester, New York. I've got a lot of friends, family and clients up there, so did my yearly pilgrimage. Just kind of catching back up from being back and readjusting to the heat, so all good.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Got you. All right. Well, good. Well, I'm glad you guys are doing well and yeah, let's get into the five things we need to know about decumulation.   Speaker 1: First of all, it's a big fancy sounding word, but really it just is the spending of your assets, right? I mean, we've accumulated the money, now we're going to decumulate it. It's just kind of a fancy way of spending down what we have saved.   Speaker 1: On this episode, let's point out a few items that people might want to think about to retire successfully. Let's start with the first one. Nick, I'll give this to you. Just a lack of support. I think if you go in, obviously if you type in any kind of a financial something or another, you're going to get 18 billion hits on Google, and a lot of it is about how to accumulate money versus not too much necessarily about the decumulation side.   Speaker 1: But I think if you think if you're working with a good financial professional or an advisor like you guys, obviously that's where some of that support is going to come from, a lot of that support is going to come from. But there is a real lack of that it seems like if you're just trying to do it yourself.   Nick: Yeah, it's interesting. The perspective that people tend to have for this phase of their life, as far as whether you refer to it as decumulation or the distribution phase of life, is oftentimes kind of ingrained in them from their parents a little bit.   Nick: What we've seen a lot with people that are really entering or soon to enter into retirement, and I had this conversation recently with a client is, hey, we know what our expenses are. We have an idea what's going to be coming in from social security, and we just want to protect our principal and go ahead and just take interest in dividends from our accounts, because that's what we know from our parents, and that's kind of... That just makes sense to us.   Nick: The conversation that we get into and we take them really have to force them to go and review the plan that we've put together because the plan will really lay out how this is going to be structured and the underlying components can be a little bit confusing.   Nick: As an example, when I explain to somebody that brings that up that that's what they want to do and help them understand that, hey, on average your dividends on the stock side of your portfolio might be around 2%, if you want solid stocks. Then from an interest rate standpoint, maybe you're looking at 2 or 3% as well. If we're looking at a million bucks, we're talking a total of 20 to $30,000 a year and that will often send them right into a panic attack.   Nick: Understanding how these things tie together, understanding that with the advent and the prevalence of things like exchange traded funds and mutual funds where we can do fractional shares and we can break accounts into a short-term, mid-term, long-term bucket to help us try to preserve some principle over time via growth, but also have a safe withdrawal rate and strategy is really important. It's hands down the most misunderstood, but important thing when it comes to retirement planning.   John: Yeah. I think what we've seen a lot of advisors and client, or a lot of advisors individuals focus on just accumulation, so it's really just kind of building, building it up and they never, as Nick mentioned here, there's never a strategy for as far as how do you actually start taking that money out?   John: It all comes back to you don't want to start planning for that once you retire, that really needs to be as soon as you can, but in reality when you hit that red zone of 5 to 10 years from retirement, I would say more towards 10, you should really start considering, "Hey, what is my distribution strategy?"   Speaker 1: Got you. Okay. Yeah, and I think a lot of times we do kind of get wrapped up in the accumulation thing and we tend to forget about these other stages and it leads me really into the second topic guys on this, which is it's funny, maybe not funny, but it is interesting how the fear of spending is really real.   Speaker 1: At first, when I first started, I've been doing this now for a number of years, talking with advisors all across the country and you think, hey, you get to retirement. You're looking forward to finally spending your and having a good time and so on and so forth and enjoying your golden years. But many, many, many people are truly afraid of actually spending what they've saved.   Speaker 1: I think a lot of it probably comes down to just confidence, but it's a real thing getting over that hump and getting comfortable saying, "Okay, it's okay to spend this money we've saved for the last 40 years now." What do you guys see?   John: Yeah, no, we see the same thing. It really is, again, back to the accumulation phase or savings phase in this scenario. They're just so used to getting a paycheck, saving it, and then they live off of their paycheck. Well, now your nest egg is now retirement that providing that paycheck for you, and the biggest fear for retirees is not running out of money. With that comes, can I spend this much? What will my assets, or what does my plan look like if I continue this spending or if I go buy this?   John: It's important, and we've had scenarios where the plan really does give clients confidence of when they look at it and say, "Okay, if I continue my current spending rate, I have X amount at the end of the plan." The cool thing about some of the stuff that we do when we get to see our clients see it is we'll show, "Hey, what if you spend an extra 10 to 15 grand over the next 10 years for a vacation?" And we'll model it out and they get to see how does that affect their overall plan, and is there still money left at the end? Is there enough money left where you feel comfortable?   John: We find that when people see that and there's two versions of it. One's a very detailed kind of actuarial cashflow number, which is kind of boring to look at. But then we also have a chart form, which just makes it easy to understand and it's, "Okay. You know what? I can go spend that money," and it just provides a nice peace of mind.   John: We've had scenarios where people see that and then they go do some of their goal, whether it's buy an RV, do this vacation, spend time with family. It's the fear is definitely real, and it's important to have a plan to give you some peace of mind, to see if you... That you're not going to outlive your money.   Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think definitely it's that confidence factor, right? Because oftentimes people that are in good shape, they just don't really feel comfortable that they can go through that transition period. I think that's a lot of the value that you guys bring to the table by saying, "Okay, now we've built a plan. I've showed you this is going to work, and then you're there as that kind of coaching sounding board to say, "No, it's okay. We can get over this hump together. You're going to be able to enjoy this because that's what you've built up and worked towards."   Speaker 1: Now we know obviously we're living longer and there's more things to be... There's more risky stuff out there, and not even talking about the crazy kooky world we find ourselves in right now, but just risks in general. If we're talking about the de cumulation phase, which is when we're into retirement, the risks in general become more numerous, especially financially speaking.   Nick: Yeah, so one of the things that can impact a retirement plan or this phase of somebody's life, this decumulation phase, is what's called the sequence of returns. Essentially, what that means is that on a typical case, people think in terms of average rates of return, and that's understandable because that's how most people are taught.   Nick: But there can be an average over a 10 year period, a 15 year period of, you can call it 6, 7, 8%. But if the... Even though it averages that number, if the losses are incurred early on and they're significant, that has a much greater impact on how long the money will last than if those losses come further on down the road.   Nick: That's why it's important to really have a strategy, to understand that the plan should be consistently updated. And what ends up happening, especially in one of the things that we're starting to see a little bit is, the markets have been up for the last 6, 7, 8, 9 years, so there's a little bit of, I don't know if you euphoria is the right term, but a little bit of a sense of invincibility for some people. Where it's like, "Hey, I keep taking money out and it keeps going up and that's great," and that is good, but it doesn't always happen like that.   Nick: When we have these risks of AC goes out, child loses their job and you help them financially, you get grandkids, there's a change of social security, you have a health issue, all these different things. We're trying to prepare for all uncertainties, and so making sure that your investment strategy is really lining up with your overall plan is important even in good times, which is what we've had for quite a while.   Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I definitely would agree with that statement for sure. You know, and John, listen, hey, they've passed another trillion dollars just a few weeks ago at the time we're taping this podcast, now they're talking about another $3 trillion. So focusing on tax consequences has probably never been more important than what it's going to be over the next couple of years. Whether they sunset, they do nothing and leave them alone, and they sunset back to the old means here in a couple of years, or they make some changes, you got to have some focus on taxes.   John: Yeah. Taxes are definitely an eroding factor on your money, especially going into retirement. Because that for the majority of people, that's their... The IRA pre-tax money is typically their biggest part of their nest egg and they're pulling it out. Every time you pull out a hundred grand, you're getting whacked with taxes on that. It's important, again kind of that red zone area, even before that you want to start planning for what you think your tax situation is going to be. But also you want to start planning to have the flexibility to adapt to any type of tax environment so you can basically limit how much taxes you're actually paying.   John: So example, Nick mentioned some risks where let's say you have a health event, you need to pull out 30, 40 grand. It might be nice to have some tax free money, AKA kind of some Roth money that you can pull from so you don't really jump into a higher tax bracket and just start paying enormous amount of taxes that you could ultimately have avoided.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, again, it's not what you make, it's what you keep. It's all those kinds of things we know, we hear about it, but if you're not talking about taxes as you're preparing for retirement, I mean, I'll go out on a limb and just say you're doing it wrong. Right? You've got to make sure that you're factoring that in there and having those conversations, and if you're not, well, then that needs to be a red flag as well.   Speaker 1: So that at the end of the day, we've got these five things I mentioned. Here's the fifth one, guys, just leveraging the lifetime income. We got to replace a paycheck, whether it's for 1 year, 5 years, 15 years, 25 years, 40 years. It'd be easy if we knew exactly how long we're going to live, but we don't, so you've got to have that thing ready and you've got to leverage that income for life.   Nick: Yeah. It's one of the things that we try to emphasize with people and one of the keys to planning is that everybody's situation is different. When you talk to your brother, your sister, your friend, your neighbor, whatever, and when I was just up north, I'm reminded about, I was reminded about how much people love to talk about just everything. Being down in Florida, people tend to be a little bit more private from what I've seen. People are, "Oh yeah, I did this, I did that. I did this."   Nick: One of the things that I try to emphasize to people on a consistent basis is that sure, your sister may be doing X, Y, and Z, but maybe your sister has a pension. Maybe your sister's mortgage is paid off. Maybe your sister didn't have kids, and so her situation and all of the decisions that line up with that are very different from yours. Because you don't have a pension, your house isn't paid off, you did have children that cost you more money, and let alone the risk tolerance from the standpoint of the market, that's a whole different ball game.   Nick: When we evaluate things, one of the things that when we go through a plan, one of the things that we typically go through with people is just looking at options from the standpoint of a guaranteed income. In reality, the only way to get guaranteed income is through annuities, and a lot of people have a certain perception of annuities or they don't like them. We always try to remind people that, hey, our job is to make sure you understand what options are out there and available for you. Make sure how you know that they work or would work for you in your situation. Then if it's something that you don't like, then we just don't do it, and we move on.   Nick: But when we factor in social security, whether or not somebody has a pension and/or whether or not they want to have some form of guaranteed income in the future, it can really make a significant difference. Not only from just a pure planning standpoint, but also from a peace of mind standpoint.   Nick: One of the things that is probably underestimated are how people emotionally respond to different things that happen in the market, and how that can impact their decision-making. No matter how many times somebody, says, "Hey, I know I need to invest longterm. I know I need not to be reactionary," when it hits the fan, it's really hard not to be.   John: Nick, I'm going to stop you for a second. A perfect example of that was actually when Coronavirus hit. I think we had a true indication of how much risk some people were willing to take.   Nick: A hundred percent, and so this is that whole... I referred to it a little bit earlier, this level of euphoria over the last year is that, "Hey, everything's going well." Or we've had conversations with clients where maybe they've used some sort of annuity or some sort of guaranteed income product. It's like, "Well, hey, if I would've kept it in the market, it would have done this, this and that." It's like, "Yes, but what we did was we separated that money and we gave it a certain job, and as long as that does its job, then we have a lot less pressure on everything else, including your brain and your emotions, and that cannot be underestimated."   Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, those are five things, folks, that happen or can happen during the decumulation phase, which again is a fancy word for the spending of the assets that you've accumulated through the years to get to retirement. Hopefully, that helped you a little bit, gave you a couple of useful things to think about.   Speaker 1: As always, if you've got some questions, we talk in generalities here on the podcast, make sure you're checking with your advisor or reach out to qualified professionals like John and Nick before you take any action. You can find them online at PFGprivatewealth.com, that's PFGprivatewealth.com.   Speaker 1: Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast while you're there on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever platform you like to use. We put these out quite often here, so you've got definitely a lot of content. You can go back and listen to some past episodes and, of course, get notified when new episodes come out as well.   Speaker 1: So guys, thanks for hanging out with me. I appreciate it. Glad to have you back in and chatting with me and I'll see you guys in a couple of weeks. We'll be getting ready for football season.   Nick: Yes, sir.   John: Right.   Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time here on Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

About NickNick Frichette is a Penetration Tester and Team Lead for State Farm. Outside of work he does vulnerability research. His current primary focus is developing techniques for AWS exploitation. Additionally he is the founder of hackingthe.cloud which is an open source encyclopedia of the attacks and techniques you can perform in cloud environments.Links: Hacking the Cloud: https://hackingthe.cloud/ Determine the account ID that owned an S3 bucket vulnerability: https://hackingthe.cloud/aws/enumeration/account_id_from_s3_bucket/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/frichette_n Personal website:https://frichetten.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lumigo. If you've built anything from serverless, you know that if there's one thing that can be said universally about these applications, it's that it turns every outage into a murder mystery. Lumigo helps make sense of all of the various functions that wind up tying together to build applications. It offers one-click distributed tracing so you can effortlessly find and fix issues in your serverless and microservices environment. You've created more problems for yourself; make one of them go away. To learn more, visit lumigo.io.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I spend a lot of time throwing things at AWS in varying capacities. One area I don't spend a lot of time giving them grief is in the InfoSec world because as it turns out, they—and almost everyone else—doesn't have much of a sense of humor around things like security. My guest today is Nick Frechette, who's a penetration tester and team lead for State Farm. Nick, thanks for joining me.Nick: Hey, thank you for inviting me on.Corey: So, like most folks in InfoSec, you tend to have a bunch of different, I guess, titles or roles that hang on signs around someone's neck. And it all sort of distills down, on some level—in your case, at least, and please correct me if I'm wrong—to ‘cloud security researcher.' Is that roughly correct? Or am I missing something fundamental?Nick: Yeah. So, for my day job, I do penetration testing, and that kind of puts me up against a variety of things, from web applications, to client-side applications, to sometimes the cloud. In my free time, though, I like to spend a lot of time on security research, and most recently been focusing pretty heavily on AWS.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning. What is a cloud security researcher? “What is it you'd say it is you do here?” For lack of a better phrasing?Nick: Well, to be honest, the phrase ‘security researcher' or ‘cloud security researcher' has been, kind of… I guess watered down in recent years; everybody likes to call themselves a researcher in some way or another. You have some folks who participate in the bug bounty programs. So, for example, GCP, and Azure have their own bug bounties. AWS does not, and too sure why. And so they want to find vulnerabilities with the intention of getting cash compensation for it.You have other folks who are interested in doing security research to try and better improve defenses and alerting and monitoring so that when the next major breach happens, they're prepared or they'll be able to stop it ahead of time. From what I do, I'm very interested in offensive security research. So, how can I as, a penetration tester, or red teamer or, I guess, an actual criminal, [laugh] how can I take advantage of AWS, or try to avoid detection from services like GuardDuty and CloudTrail?Corey: So, let's break that down a little bit further. I've heard the term of ‘red team versus blue team' used before. Red team—presumably—is the offensive security folks—and yes, some of those people are, in fact, quite offensive—and blue team is the defense side. In other words, keeping folks out. Is that a reasonable summation of the state of the world?Nick: It can be, yeah, especially when it comes to security. One of the nice parts about the whole InfoSec field—I know a lot of folks tend to kind of just say, “Oh, they're there to prevent the next breach,” but in reality, InfoSec has a ton of different niches and different job specialties. “Blue teamers,” quote-unquote, tend to be the defense side working on ensuring that we can alert and monitor potential attacks, whereas red teamers—or penetration testers—tend to be the folks who are trying to do the actual exploitation or develop techniques to do that in the future.Corey: So, you talk a bit about what you do for work, obviously, but what really drew my notice was stuff you do that isn't part of your core job, as best I understand it. You're focused on vulnerability research, specifically with a strong emphasis on cloud exploitation, as you said—AWS in particular—and you're the founder of Hacking the Cloud, which is an open-source encyclopedia of various attacks and techniques you can perform in cloud environments. Tell me about that.Nick: Yeah, so Hacking the Cloud came out of a frustration I had when I was first getting into AWS, that there didn't seem to be a ton of good resources for offensive security professionals to get engaged in the cloud. By comparison, if you wanted to learn about web application hacking, or attacking Active Directory, or reverse engineering, if you have a credit card, I can point you in the right direction. But there just didn't seem to be a good course or introduction to how you, as a penetration tester, should attack AWS. There's things like, you know, open S3 buckets are a nightmare, or that server-side request forgery on an EC2 instance can result in your organization being fined very, very heavily. I kind of wanted to go deeper with that.And with Hacking the Cloud, I've tried to gather a bunch of offensive security research from various blog posts and conference talks into a single location, so that both the offense side and the defense side can kind of learn from it and leverage that to either improve defenses or look for things that they can attack.Corey: It seems to me that doing things like that is not likely to wind up making a whole heck of a lot of friends over on the cloud provider side. Can you talk a little bit about how what you do is perceived by the companies you're focusing on?Nick: Yeah. So, in terms of relationship, I don't really have too much of an idea of what they think. I have done some research and written on my blog, as well as published to Hacking the Cloud, some techniques for doing things like abusing the SSM agent, as well as abusing the AWS API to enumerate permissions without logging into CloudTrail. And ironically, through the power of IP addresses, I can see when folks from the Amazon corporate IP address space look at my blog, and that's always fun, especially when there's, like, four in the course of a couple of minutes, or five or six. But I don't really know too much about what they—or how they view it, or if they think it's valuable at all. I hope they do, but really not too sure.Corey: I would imagine that they do, on some level, but I guess the big question is, you know that someone doesn't like what you're doing when they send, you know, cease and desist notices, or have the police knock on your door. I feel like at most levels, we're past that in an InfoSec level, at least I'd like to believe we are. We don't hear about that happening all too often anymore. But what's your take on it?Nick: Yeah, I definitely agree. I definitely think we are beyond that. Most companies these days know that vulnerabilities are going to happen, no matter how hard you try and how much money you spend, and so it's better to be accepting of that and open to it. And especially because the InfoSec community can be so, say, noisy at times, it's definitely worth it to pay attention, definitely be appreciative of the information that may come out. AWS is pretty awesome to work with, having disclosed to them a couple times, now.They have a safe harbor provision, which essentially says that so long as you're operating in good faith, you are allowed to do security testing. They do have some rules around that, but they are pretty clear in terms of if you were operating in good faith, you wouldn't be doing anything like that. It tends to be pretty obviously malicious things that they'll ask you to stop.Corey: So, talk to me a little bit about what you've found lately, and been public about. There have been a number of examples that have come up whenever people start googling your name or looking at things you've done. But what's happening lately? What have you found that's interesting?Nick: Yeah. So, I think most recently, the thing that's kind of gotten the most attention has been a really interesting bug I found in the AWS API. Essentially, kind of the core of it is that when you are interacting with the API, obviously that gets logged to CloudTrail, so long as it's compatible. So, if you are successful, say you want to do, like, Secrets Manager, ListSecrets, that shows up in CloudTrail. And similarly, if you do not have that permission on a role or user and you try to do it, that access denied also gets logged to CloudTrail.Something kind of interesting that I found is that by manually modifying a request, or mal-forming them, what we can do is we can modify the content-type header, and as a result when you do that—and you can provide literally gibberish. I think I have VS Code window here somewhere with a content-type of ‘meow'—when you do that, the AWS API knows the action that you're trying to call because of that messed up content type, it doesn't know exactly what you're trying to do and as a result, it doesn't get logged to CloudTrail. Now, while that may seem kind of weirdly specific and not really, like, a concern, the nice part of it though is that for some API actions—somewhere in the neighborhood of 600. I say ‘in the neighborhood of' just because it fluctuates over time—as a result of that, you can tell if you have that permission, or if you don't without that being logged to CloudTrail. And so we can do this enumeration of permissions without somebody in the defense side seeing us do it. Which is pretty awesome from a offensive security perspective.Corey: On some level, it would be easy to say, “Well, just not showing up in the logs isn't really a security problem at all.” I guess that you disagree?Nick: I do, yeah. So, let's sort of look at it from a real-world perspective. Let's say, Corey, you're tired of saving people money on their AWS bill, you'd instead maybe want to make a little money on the side and you're okay with perhaps, you know, committing some crimes to do it. Through some means you get access to a company's AWS credentials for some particular role, whether that's through remote code execution on an EC2 instance, or maybe find them in an open location like an S3 bucket or a Git repository, or maybe you phish a developer, through some means, you have an access key and a secret access key. The new problem that you have is that you don't know what those credentials are associated with, or what permissions they have.They could be the root account keys, or they could be literally locked down to a single S3 bucket to read from. It all just kind of depends. Now, historically, your options for figuring that out are kind of limited. Your best bet would be to brute-force the AWS API using a tool like Pacu, or my personal favorite, which is enumerate-iam by Andres Riancho. And what that does is it just tries a bunch of API calls and sees which one works and which one doesn't.And if it works, you clearly know that you have that permission. Now, the problem with that, though, is that if you were to do that, that's going to light up CloudTrail like a Christmas tree. It's going to start showing all these access denieds for these various API calls that you've tried. And obviously, any defender who's paying attention is going to look at that and go, “Okay. That's, uh, that's suspicious,” and you're going to get shut down pretty quickly.What's nice about this bug that I found is that instead of having to litter CloudTrail with all these logs, we can just do this enumeration for roughly 600-ish API actions across roughly 40 AWS services, and nobody is the wiser. You can enumerate those permissions, and if they work fantastic, and you can then use them, and if you come to find you don't have any of those 600 permissions, okay, then you can decide on where to go from there, or maybe try to risk things showing up in CloudTrail.Corey: CloudTrail is one of those services that I find incredibly useful, or at least I do in theory. In practice, it seems that things don't show up there, and you don't realize that those types of activities are not being recorded until one day there's an announcement of, “Hey, that type of activity is now recorded.” As of the time of this recording, the most recent example that in memory is data plane requests to DynamoDB. It's, “Wait a minute. You mean that wasn't being recorded previously? Huh. I guess it makes sense, but oh, dear.”And that causes a reevaluation of what's happening in the—from a security policy and posture perspective for some clients. There's also, of course, the challenge of CloudTrail logs take a significant amount of time to show up. It used to be over 20 minutes, I believe now it's closer to 15—but don't quote me on that, obviously. Run your own tests—which seems awfully slow for anything that's going to be looking at those in an automated fashion and taking a reactive or remediation approach to things that show up there. Am I missing something key?Nick: No, I think that is pretty spot on. And believe me, [laugh] I am fully aware at how long CloudTrail takes to populate, especially with doing a bunch of research on what is and what is not logged to CloudTrail. I know that there are some operations that can be logged more quickly than the 15-minute average. Off the top of my head, though, I actually don't quite remember what those are. But you're right, in general, the majority at least do take quite a while.And that's definitely time in which an adversary or someone like me, could maybe take advantage of that 15-minute window to try and brute force those permissions, see what we have access to, and then try to operate and get out with whatever goodies we've managed to steal.Corey: Let's say that you're doing the thing that you do, however that comes to be—and I am curious—actually, we'll start there. I am curious; how do you discover these things? Is it looking at what is presented and then figuring out, “Huh, how can I wind up subverting the system it's based on?” And, similar to the way that I take a look at any random AWS services and try and figure out how to use it as a database? How do you find these things?Nick: Yeah, so to be honest, it all kind of depends. Sometimes it's completely by accident. So, for example, the API bug I described about not logging to CloudTrail, I actually found that due to [laugh] copy and pasting code from AWS's website, and I didn't change the content-type header. And as a result, I happened to notice this weird behavior, and kind of took advantage of it. Other times, it's thinking a little bit about how something is implemented and the security ramifications of it.So, for example, the SSM agent—which is a phenomenal tool in order to do remote access on your EC2 instances—I was sitting there one day and just kind of thought, “Hey, how does that authenticate exactly? And what can I do with it?” Sure enough, it authenticates the exact same way that the AWS API does, that being the metadata service on the EC2 instance. And so what I figured out pretty quickly is if you can get access to an EC2 instance, even as a low-privilege user or you can do server-side request forgery to get the keys, or if you just have sufficient permissions within the account, you can potentially intercept SSM messages from, like, a session and provide your own results. And so in effect, if you've compromised an EC2 instance, and the only way, say, incident response has into that box is SSM, you can effectively lock them out of it and, kind of, do whatever you want in the meantime.Corey: That seems like it's something of a problem.Nick: It definitely can be. But it is a lot of fun to play keep-away with incident response. [laugh].Corey: I'd like to reiterate that this is all in environments you control and have permissions to be operating within. It is not recommended that people pursue things like this in other people's cloud environments without permissions. I don't want to find us sued for giving crap advice, and I don't want to find listeners getting arrested because they didn't understand the nuances of what we're talking about.Nick: Yes, absolutely. Getting legal approval is really important for any kind of penetration testing or red teaming. I know some folks sometimes might get carried away, but definitely be sure to get approval before you do any kind of testing.Corey: So, how does someone report a vulnerability to a company like AWS?Nick: So AWS, at least publicly, doesn't have any kind of bug bounty program. But what they do have is a vulnerability disclosure program. And that is essentially an email address that you can contact and send information to, and that'll act as your point of contact with AWS while they investigate the issue. And at the end of their investigation, they can report back with their findings, whether they agree with you and they are working to get that patched or fixed immediately, or if they disagree with you and think that everything is hunky-dory, or if you may be mistaken.Corey: I saw a tweet the other day that I would love to get your thoughts on, which said effectively, that if you don't have a public bug bounty program, then any way that a researcher chooses to disclose the vulnerability is definitionally responsible on their part because they don't owe you any particular duty of care. Responsible disclosure, of course, is also referred to as, “Coordinated vulnerability disclosure” because we're always trying to reinvent terminology in this space. What do you think about that? Is there a duty of care from security researchers to responsibly disclose the vulnerabilities they find, or coordinate those vulnerabilities with vendors in the absence of a public bounty program on turning those things in?Nick: Yeah, you know, I think that's a really difficult question to answer. From my own personal perspective, I always think it's best to contact the developers, or the company, or whoever maintains whatever you found a vulnerability in, give them the best shot to have it fixed or repaired. Obviously, sometimes that works great, and the company is super receptive, and they're willing to patch it immediately. And other times, they just don't respond, or sometimes they respond harshly, and so depending on the situation, it may be better for you to release it publicly with the intention that you're informing folks that this particular company or this particular project may have an issue. On the flip side, I can kind of understand—although I don't necessarily condone it—why folks pursue things like exploit brokers, for example.So, if a company doesn't have a bug bounty program, and the researcher isn't expecting any kind of, like, cash compensation, I can understand why they may spend tens of hours, maybe hundreds of hours chasing down a particularly impactful vulnerability, only to maybe write a blog post about it or get a little head pat and say, “Thanks, nice work.” And so I can see why they may pursue things like selling to an exploit broker who may pay them hefty sum, if it is a—Corey: Orders of magnitude more. It's, “Oh, good. You found a way to remotely execute code across all of EC2 in every region”—that is a hypothetical; don't email me—have a t-shirt. It seems like you could basically buy all the t-shirts for [laugh] what that is worth on the export market.Nick: Yes, absolutely. And I do know from some experience that folks will reach out to you and are interested in, particularly, some cloud exploits. Nothing, like, minor, like some of the things that I've found, but more thinking more of, like, accessing resources without anybody knowing or accessing resources cross-account; that could go for quite a hefty sum.Corey: This episode is sponsored by ExtraHop. ExtraHop provides threat detection and response for the Enterprise (not the starship). On-prem security doesn't translate well to cloud or multi-cloud environments, and that's not even counting IoT. ExtraHop automatically discovers everything inside the perimeter, including your cloud workloads and IoT devices, detects these threats up to 35 percent faster, and helps you act immediately. Ask for a free trial of detection and response for AWS today at extrahop.com/trial.Corey: It always feels squicky, on some level, to discover something like this that's kind of neat, and wind up selling it to basically some arguably terrible people. Maybe. We don't know who's buying these things from the exploit broker. Counterpoint, having reported a few security problems myself to various providers, you get an autoresponder, then you get a thank you email that goes into a bit more detail—for the well-run programs, at least—and invariably, the company's position is, is whatever you found is not as big of a deal as you think it is, and therefore they see no reason to publish it or go loud with it. Wouldn't you agree?Because, on some level, their entire position is, please don't talk about any security shortcomings that you may have discovered in our system. And I get why they don't want that going loud, but by the same token, security researchers need a reputation to continue operating on some level in the market as security researchers, especially independents, especially people who are trying to make names for themselves in the first place.Nick: Yeah.Corey: How do you resolve that dichotomy yourself?Nick: Yeah, so, from my perspective, I totally understand why a company or project wouldn't want you to publicly disclose an issue. Everybody wants to look good, and nobody wants to be called out for any kind of issue that may have been unintentionally introduced. I think the thing at the end of the day, though, from my perspective, if I, as some random guy in the middle of nowhere Illinois finds a bug, or to be frank, if anybody out there finds a vulnerability in something, then a much more sophisticated adversary is equally capable of finding such a thing. And so it's better to have these things out in the open and discussed, rather than hidden away, so that we have the best chance of anybody being able to defend against it or develop detections for it, rather than just kind of being like, “Okay, the vendor didn't like what I had to say, I guess I'll go back to doing whatever [laugh] things I normally do.”Corey: You've obviously been doing this for a while. And I'm going to guess that your entire security researcher career has not been focused on cloud environments in general and AWS in particular.Nick: Yes, I've done some other stuff in relation to abusing GitLab Runners. I also happen to find a pretty neat RCE and privilege escalation in the very popular open-source project. Pi-hole. Not sure if you have any experience with that.Corey: Oh, I run it myself all the time for various DNS blocking purposes and other sundry bits of nonsense. Oh, yes, good. But what I'm trying to establish here is that this is not just one or two companies that you've worked with. You've done this across the board, which means I can ask a question without naming and shaming anyone, even implicitly. What differentiates good vulnerability disclosure programs from terrible ones?Nick: Yeah, I think the major differentiator is the reactivity of the project, as in how quickly they respond to you. There are some programs I've worked with where you disclose something, maybe even that might be of a high severity, and you might not hear back four weeks at a time, whereas there are other programs, particularly the MSRC—which is a part of Microsoft—or with AWS's disclosure program, where within the hour, I had a receipt of, “Hey, we received this, we're looking into it.” And then within a couple hours after that, “Yep, we verified it. We see what you're seeing, and we're going to look at it right away.” I think that's definitely one of the major differentiators for programs.Corey: Are there any companies you'd like to call out in either direction—and, “No,” is a perfectly valid [laugh] answer to this one—for having excellent disclosure programs versus terrible ones?Nick: I don't know if I'd like to call anybody out negatively. But in support, I have definitely appreciated working with both AWS's and the MSRC—Microsoft's—I think both of them have done a pretty fantastic job. And they definitely know what they're doing at this point.Corey: Yeah, I must say that I primarily focus on AWS and have for a while, which should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's listened to me talk about computers for more than three and a half minutes. But my experiences with the security folks at AWS have been uniformly positive, even when I find things that they don't want me talking about, that I will be talking about regardless, they've always been extremely respectful, and I have never walked away from the conversation thinking that I was somehow cheated by the experience. In fact, a couple of years ago at the last in-person re:Invent, I got to give a talk around something I reported specifically about how AWS runs its vulnerability disclosure program with one of their security engineers, Zach Glick, and he was phenomenally transparent around how a lot of these things work, and what they care about, and how they view these things, and what their incentives are. And obviously being empathetic to people reporting things in with the understanding that there is no duty of care that when security researchers discover something, they then must immediately go and report it in return for a pat on the head and a thank you. It was really neat being able to see both sides simultaneously around a particular issue. I'd recommend it to other folks, except I don't know how you make that lightning strike twice.Nick: It's very, very wise. Yes.Corey: Thank you. I do my best. So, what's next for you? You've obviously found a number of interesting vulnerabilities around information disclosure. One of the more recent things that I found that was sort of neat as I trolled the internet—I don't believe it was yours, but there was a ability to determine the account ID that owned an S3 bucket by enumerating by a binary search. Did you catch that at all?Nick: I did. That was by Ben Bridts, which is—it's pretty awesome technique, and that's been something I've been kind of interested in for a while. There is an ability to enumerate users' roles and service-linked roles inside an account, so long as the account ID. The problem, of course, is getting the account ID. So, when Ben put that out there I was super stoked about being able to leverage that now for enumeration and maybe some fun phishing tricks with that.Corey: I love the idea. I love seeing that sort of thing being conducted. And AWS's official policy as best I remember when I looked at this once, account IDs are not considered confidential. Do you agree with that?Nick: Yep. That is my understanding of how AWS views it. From my perspective, having an account ID can be beneficial. I mentioned that you can enumerate users' roles and service-linked roles with it, and that can be super useful from a phishing perspective. The average phishing email looks like, “Oh, you won an iPad,” or, “Oh, you're the 100th visitor of some website,” or something like that.But imagine getting an email that looks like it's from something like AWS developer support, or from some research program that they're doing, and they can say to you, like, “Hey, we see that you have these roles in your account with account ID such-and-such, and we know that you're using EKS, and you're using ECS,” that phishing email becomes a lot more believable when suddenly this outside party seemingly knows so much about your account. And that might be something that you would think, “Oh, well only a real AWS employee or AWS would know that.” So, from my perspective, I think it's best to try and keep your account ID secret. I actually redact it from every screenshot that I publish, or at the very least, I try to. At the same time, though, it's not the kind of thing that's going to get somebody in your account in a single step, so I can totally see why some folks aren't too concerned about it.Corey: I feel like we also got a bit of a red herring coming from AWS blog posts themselves, where they always will give screenshots explaining what they do, and redact the account ID in every case. And the reason that I was told at one point was, “Oh, we have an internal provisioning system that's different. It looks different, and I don't want to confuse people whenever I wind up doing a screenshot.” And that's great, and I appreciate that. And part of me wonders on one level how accurate is that?Because sure, I understand that you don't necessarily want to distract people with something that looks different, but then I found out that the system is called Isengard and, yeah, it's great. They've mentioned it periodically in blog posts, and talks, and the rest. And part of me now wonders, oh, wait a minute. Is it actually because they don't want to disclose the differences between those systems, or is it because they don't have license rights publicly to use the word Isengard and don't want to get sued by whoever owns the rights to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So, one wonders what the real incentives are in different cases. But I've always viewed account IDs as being the sort of thing that eh, you probably want to share them around all the time, but it also doesn't necessarily hurt.Nick: Exactly, yeah. It's not the kind of thing you want to share with the world immediately, but it doesn't really hurt in the end.Corey: There was an early time when the partner network was effectively determining tiers of partner by how much spend they influenced, and the way that you've demonstrated that was by giving account IDs for your client accounts. The only verification at the time, to my understanding was that, “Yep, that mapped to the client you said it did.” And that was it. So, I can understand back in those days not wanting to muddy those waters. But those days are also long passed.So, I get it. I'm not going to be the first person to advertise mine, but if you can discover my account ID by looking at a bucket, it doesn't really keep me up at night.So, all of those things considered, we've had a pretty wide-ranging conversation here about a variety of things. What's next? What interests you as far as where you're going to start looking and exploring—and exploiting as the case may be—various cloud services? hackthe.cloud—which there is the dot in there, which also turns it into a domain; excellent choice—is absolutely going to be a great collection for a lot of what you find and for other people to contribute and learn from one another. But where are you aimed at? What's next?Nick: Yeah, so one thing I've been really interested in has been fuzzing the AWS API. As anyone who's ever used AWS before knows, there are hundreds of services with thousands of potential API endpoints. And so from a fuzzing perspective, there is a wide variety of things for us to potentially affect or potentially find vulnerabilities in. I'm currently working on a library that will allow me to make that fuzzing a lot easier. You could use things like botocore, Boto3, like, some of the AWS SDKs.The problem though, is that those are designed for, sort of like, the happy path where you can format your request the way Amazon wants. As a security researcher or as someone doing fuzzing, I kind of want to send random gibberish sometimes, or I want to malform my requests. And so that library is still in production, but it has already resulted in a bug. While I was fuzzing part of the AWS API, I happened to notice that I broke Elastic Beanstalk—quite literally—when [laugh] when I was going through the AWS console, I got the big red error message of, “[unintelligible 00:29:35] that request parameter is null.” And I was like, “Huh. Well, why is it null?”And come to find out as a result of that, there is a HTML injection vulnerability in the Elastic—well, there was a HTML injection vulnerability in the Elastic Beanstalk, for the AWS console. Pivoting from there, the Elastic Beanstalk uses Angular 1.8.1, or at least it did when I found it. As a result of that, we can modify that HTML injection to do template injection. And for the AngularJS crowd, template injection is basically cross-site scripting [laugh] because there is no sandbox anymore, at least in that version. And so as a result of that, I was able to get cross-site scripting in the AWS console, which is pretty exciting. That doesn't tend to happen too frequently.Corey: No that is not a typical issue that winds up getting disclosed very often.Nick: Definitely, yeah. And so I was excited about it, and considering the fact that my library for fuzzing is literally, like, not even halfway done, or is barely halfway done, I'm looking forward to what other things I can find with it.Corey: I look forward to reading more. And at the time of this recording, I should point out that this has not been finalized or made public, so I'll be keeping my eyes open to see what happens with this. And hopefully, this will be old news by the time this episode drops. If not, well, [laugh] this might be an interesting episode once it goes out.Nick: Yeah. I hope they'd have it fixed by then. They haven't responded to it yet other than the, “Hi, we've received your email. Thanks for checking in.” But we'll see how that goes.Corey: Watching news as it breaks is always exciting. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, and how you go about things, where can they find you?Nick: Yeah, so you can find me at a couple different places. On Twitter I'm @frichette_n. I also write a blog where I contribute a lot of my research at frechetten.com as well as Hacking the Cloud. I contribute a lot of the AWS stuff that gets thrown on there. And it's also open-source, so if anyone else would like to contribute or share their knowledge, you're absolutely welcome to do so. Pull requests are open and excited for anyone to contribute.Corey: Excellent. And we will of course include links to that in the [show notes 00:31:42]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Nick: Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me on. I had a great time.Corey: Nick Frechette, penetration tester and team lead for State Farm. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me why none of these things are actually vulnerabilities, but simultaneously should not be discussed in public, ever.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

On todays episode the BUDDiES godlymC and Marco theBrand sit down and talk about the weeks events, and theyve brought along their friend Nick! Enjoy

For any murderers out there, no I am no longer alone in my house. Thanks for listening to what is clearly a girl spending too much (not enough) time with her pets. Otherwise, I sit next to Nick (YES!), but still deal with being called a "showoff" (Ug). Everyone is mad at me bc I have crushes. What's a girl to do? And why is that still a trigger for me today?Accepting answers and other middle school stories at rmilypodcast@gmail.com. Skipped em for this week, but will have more to include in the next epi! Thanks for listening friends. Feel free to share with friend's who are also looking to add more dramz to their life via a Leo's (sun AND rising baby) middle school diary. 

In this episode we talk about How to Shape Your Reality. 2:48 Manifesting What we want to talk about today, and we might be talking about it more and more, is how to shape your reality, basically manifesting.  And I think I know where I want to kick this off.  If you're not shaping your reality, the outside reality is gonna shape you. KISMA I feel like this goes beyond manifesting as well. When I think about shaping your reality, that involves the flow of your life and the direction that it goes, your experience of the things.  And I'm excited to let the conversation unfold. Nick 4:20 Four Principles of Shaping Your Reality So we want to look at these four principles of shaping your reality. And we might dial in a few of them in this episode, but they are knowing, heart, action, and receptivity. KISMA Knowing Heart Action Receptivity  Nick 4:41 Knowing Your Desired Reality If we start with knowing, the way that I teach this is we have to know what it is we want, and this can get confusing for people because they don’t know their big vision. You don't have to have the big, big vision, but if you're going to shape your reality, start to decide, what is that desired reality? What is it that you want your life to be? If it's something specific in relationships, something in your career or business or your health, you have to know it, and really begin to see that in your vision.  KISMA 10:27  Acceptance of What Is And when I think about heart, that to me, it's a little hard to describe actually, but it's not necessarily an emotional thing. It's when I'm really dropped into myself and choosing what's right for me. There's an inner sort of quietude around it or just an ease of like, “Oh, that's the thing. Oh, that's it. That's right for me. I know that's right for me. I can move in that direction”.  It's an inner peace that just says yes and it's so clear. Nick Yeah. I think it's an acceptance of what it is.  It's very much that inner knowing will come when we are in more belief of what it is we want. Belief in ourselves and belief in the Universe, in Spirit and Source that will provide it when we stay on that path. KISMA 13:43 Charged With Emotion The other thing that needs to happen for this piece of knowing and heart is, I think when you come upon something you want and it's charged with emotion, is being aware that it goes both ways.  If someone charges their desire with fear, they're going into the upside down affirmation, the negative affirmation, and that thought's going to be charged. When they charge it with gratitude, belief, and acceptance, it is also powerful.  It begins to mold out into this Universal Intelligence Space. KISMA 14:37 Present In The Knowing But the things we need to avoid are regret of the past and apprehension of the future.  Being right here, present in the knowing, dropped into heart and putting the emotion of gratitude for it, it's already existing. If we think about it, it's already existing. So it's staying in belief and dropped in. KISMA That allows the action to unfold which is the third step. Nick Yes, there's going to be action. Yes, there's going to be receptivity. And we'll talk about that in the next episode, but right here and now, everything begins with a thought. What we're dialing in here is how much in the knowing of what it is you want to attract, that you can see it, that you can feel it, that you can accept it and then be in this present moment and the next present moment so that you're in this space, you're in this Universal Substance ready to allow this thing to take shape. KISMA 20:38 Just Be Present Just be present if nothing else. This very exercise will elevate your vibe. It'll raise your frequency.  And then in the next episode, we'll talk more about the action and the receptivity to really bring these dreams into a reality for you. KISMA

Surface miners, like the ones safety instructor Nick Ullrich teaches, get to play with some pretty big toys, like loading trucks with tires three times taller than the average person. But tires that big come with some pretty big blind spots, and Nick is using VR to get them used to those blind spots before putting them behind those gigantic wheels. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business Podcast, with your host, Alan Smithson. We all know safety comes first, and today, we're speaking with Nick Ullrich, a safety instructor from Gillette College, who's focused on using VR to train mining employees to become safer and better operators. Coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Nick, welcome to the show. Nick: Yes, Alan, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Alan: Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. I read an article about how you're using VR to train mining employees. How did you get into this? Tell us a little bit about your background. Nick: Ok. Yeah, so the first project that we've done is a blind spot recognition, using virtual reality 360 photography as well. And it's to help miners -- when they're on the mine side -- understand the blind spots of heavy equipment. So we started with that because MSHA -- the Mine Safety and Health Administration -- has an initiative out there about powered haulage. And that's kind of where the idea came from. We see fatalities every year in the mining world. So I wanted to give everybody an understanding of what the blind spots for the heavy equipment that they're working around are on, and give them an idea of that. And virtual reality gave us an opportunity to do that without actually having to have all the equipment here at the college. So it works out great to give them a vision of what they would see if they were in that equipment. Alan: That's pretty cool. So you're talking about those big, huge dump trucks with the giant wheels and loaders and all these type of things? Nick: Yeah, absolutely. We have-- in the program that we have now, we have 10 pieces of equipment, it includes the 400 ton haul trucks, which is the largest haul trucks in the world. Those tires are approximately 15 feet high. Alan: Whoa. Nick: Yeah, next to them, you will go about to the middle of the tire. Alan: That's incredible. So you've got these trucks. Now, did you create them as 3D models and then climb inside of it? Or is this taken from like a 360 video type of thing? Nick: So we do a couple different things with it. We do have 3D models of all the pieces of equipment. So like I said, we have about ten pieces of equipment right now, and we just have 3D models of those, where people can walk around them virtually and see how big they are, put them to actual size or as close as I could get to actual size, by my recollection of them. They can get into them -- for the most part -- and just kind of see it in a virtual spot. And then we did go out to all the different mine sites and take 360 photography of each of those pieces of equipment. And we did it a really cool way. We set up a scene, so we had a whole lot of different things around the piece of equipment. So let's just say a haul trip, we have several different people and smaller vehicles, like light duty vehicles, such as just your normal pickup or van. We had those all set up in a special way, where you couldn't see them from the cab, so they were *in* the blind spots of that equipment. We took that 360 photo from the cab of that piece of equipment, so we can show everybody what the cab looks like and what they could see outside of it, knowing that they couldn't see any of the things in the blind s

Surface miners, like the ones safety instructor Nick Ullrich teaches, get to play with some pretty big toys, like loading trucks with tires three times taller than the average person. But tires that big come with some pretty big blind spots, and Nick is using VR to get them used to those blind spots before putting them behind those gigantic wheels. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business Podcast, with your host, Alan Smithson. We all know safety comes first, and today, we're speaking with Nick Ullrich, a safety instructor from Gillette College, who's focused on using VR to train mining employees to become safer and better operators. Coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Nick, welcome to the show. Nick: Yes, Alan, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Alan: Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. I read an article about how you're using VR to train mining employees. How did you get into this? Tell us a little bit about your background. Nick: Ok. Yeah, so the first project that we've done is a blind spot recognition, using virtual reality 360 photography as well. And it's to help miners -- when they're on the mine side -- understand the blind spots of heavy equipment. So we started with that because MSHA -- the Mine Safety and Health Administration -- has an initiative out there about powered haulage. And that's kind of where the idea came from. We see fatalities every year in the mining world. So I wanted to give everybody an understanding of what the blind spots for the heavy equipment that they're working around are on, and give them an idea of that. And virtual reality gave us an opportunity to do that without actually having to have all the equipment here at the college. So it works out great to give them a vision of what they would see if they were in that equipment. Alan: That's pretty cool. So you're talking about those big, huge dump trucks with the giant wheels and loaders and all these type of things? Nick: Yeah, absolutely. We have-- in the program that we have now, we have 10 pieces of equipment, it includes the 400 ton haul trucks, which is the largest haul trucks in the world. Those tires are approximately 15 feet high. Alan: Whoa. Nick: Yeah, next to them, you will go about to the middle of the tire. Alan: That's incredible. So you've got these trucks. Now, did you create them as 3D models and then climb inside of it? Or is this taken from like a 360 video type of thing? Nick: So we do a couple different things with it. We do have 3D models of all the pieces of equipment. So like I said, we have about ten pieces of equipment right now, and we just have 3D models of those, where people can walk around them virtually and see how big they are, put them to actual size or as close as I could get to actual size, by my recollection of them. They can get into them -- for the most part -- and just kind of see it in a virtual spot. And then we did go out to all the different mine sites and take 360 photography of each of those pieces of equipment. And we did it a really cool way. We set up a scene, so we had a whole lot of different things around the piece of equipment. So let's just say a haul trip, we have several different people and smaller vehicles, like light duty vehicles, such as just your normal pickup or van. We had those all set up in a special way, where you couldn't see them from the cab, so they were *in* the blind spots of that equipment. We took that 360 photo from the cab of that piece of equipment, so we can show everybody what the cab looks like and what they could see outside of it, knowing that they couldn't see any of the things in the blind s

Listen to Nick (2020) talk about his internship in accounting at Honda R&D this past summer. Transcript: Stephanie: Hi there, you're listening to Gear Up, the Duke Career Center student produced podcast showcasing real student summer internship experiences. Today we're talking to Nick who had an internship in accounting this summer. Okay, introduce yourself. Nick: Sure, my name is Nick Landis. I am a senior from Louisville, Kentucky and I am studying economics. Stephanie: So what did you do this past summer? Nick: This past summer, I was a managerial accounting student associate at Honda R and D Americas Incorporated in Raymond, Ohio. Stephanie: And how did you find that position? Nick: I thought it was very interesting. I had a lot of fun doing the work and I thought that the place I was working at was very fascinating, and I was learning new things every day. Stephanie: And what were you doing specifically day to day? Nick: Sure, so I had quite a variety of roles. One of the things that I did was that, I regularly helped track the budget of the facility that we were running. Nick: It had a budget that was in the tens of the tens of millions of dollars. And one of my main tasks was figuring out where we could streamline the budget, and figure out ways to run the company more efficiently. In that role, I would also spend a lot of time meeting with people who helps manage other departments within the facility. And I also got to look at the various products that were being developed by Honda at this location. And I also spent some time developing this project to help streamline the disposal process for some of our test vehicles. And I think that I had a lot of really good positive impact for doing that. Stephanie: That’s a lot of responsibility for an intern. Nick: Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit of it was unexpected, but I feel like I had a lot of support, and I feel like my management had a lot of faith in my ability. And I think that's really important to work for people who have faith in you and don't try to just baby you. That's that's very important to me. Stephanie: Did you find the work interesting? Nick: Mostly, I'd say, I think that you can ask anybody who works in accounting of any kind and they'll tell you that sometimes the work can get a little dry and it did. But I will say that in the grand scheme of things, I really thought that the work I was doing was interesting and important in terms of the impact that I was having on the company. And I actually felt like I had a purpose for being there. And I thought that that was the most important thing to me. Stephanie: Do you feel like your coursework or things that you do at Duke prepared you at all for it? Nick: I'd say that it helped me out a little bit. I spent a lot of time taking finance based economics electives the past couple of years and they definitely helped me to understand some of the concepts that I was working with especially classes that involved accounting and viewing financial statements. Those were really helpful. One thing I will say, though, was that no amount of coursework can prepare you for having a real job. There are just certain things that you have to pick up when you're working. And I think that that goes for any job. But I think that in terms of the academic skills that I had, I think that I was reasonably prepared. Stephanie: And where did you find this job? Like, did you find it that networking or see it on a job site? Nick: I think that I saw on a job site. I was very, very proactive in trying to find internships wherever I could, whether it be on CareerConnections or just by Googling. So I honestly don't remember where I found it. I want to say that I found it on the job site, but it does kind of escape me at the moment. Stephanie: And you just applied and and happened to get it? Nick: Yes, I sent in an application. They sent back a couple questionnaires. I did a couple of phone screens and

EU-China APP 3rd Drone Workshop was held this week. 1st China GA Airworthiness Certification Forum was held yesterday. Welcom to AOPA-China News Channel. Nick: Hello, everyone! Thanks for tuning in to 5 Minutes with AOPA-China news channel. Today we are bringing you two pieces of news. Claire: Unmanned aircraft systems or “drones” is a fast developing sector, bringing in benefits to society. At the same time, they pose new challenges to the public as well as the authorities. Nations all over the globe act on this. Chinese civil aviation administration has called for tighter regulation control on illegal drone flights as the country has become the world’s largest manufacturer of consumer drones. SORA is introduced and will be implemented. Nick: Yes, against this backdrop, the third EU-China Drones Workshop organized under EU-China APP and assisted by AOPA-China was held during 28-30 May in Beijing. The two and a half ...

We sit down and talk about Black Texas Magazine with Founder, Editor & Chief Nickholas Bailey.Learn about Black Texas Magazine here:https://www.blacktexasmag.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is what? That's right, somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows that we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow--that's right, you even guessed it--it's more lit. That's right. So there's lit. This is more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions that the hosts have. Sometimes they're extended monologues from just one particular host like myself or Ola or Latricia or Ade, or sometimes, yes, maybe even sometimes, maybe even most times, they're a special chat with a special guest. Today, we have a special guest - Nickholas Bailey. Nick Bailey is the editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine, a media outlet that is dedicated to enriching the lives of people of color across the state and beyond by connecting on a personal level through a passion for leading fulfilling lives. Welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Nick: I'm doing well, how are you?Zach: I'm doing good, man. Look, let's talk about Black Texas Magazine. Where did it start, why the name, and what are y'all trying to achieve?Nick: Well, Black Texas started kind of as a jumping point for me because prior to this, or about--oh, I guess about a year prior to this I was the online editor for a publication called Texas Lifestyle Magazine. Great publication. They've done a lot of great stuff, but as I--as I got further into it, I started to recognize that there was a disconnect between my perspective and the perspective that they were--that they were creating. You know, like, I live a very different lifestyle than the people that they target, you know? I'm not accustomed to paying $300 for a charcuterie board or paying, you know, $1,000 for, you know, a grill set. It just wasn't really my--it wasn't really my thing, and I was pushing for some more relatable content for the average Texan, and it just wasn't--there was a disconnect there, and so after a lot of thinking and a lot of planning I decided to make the jump and create a publication for black people that was essentially the same thing in some ways. Like, I don't want to say that we just copied and pasted the formula because, you know, unfortunately I created a lot of the formula for Texas Lifestyle once I came on, but I would say that our goal is to enrich the life of black Texans and really Texans of all colors by exposing them to new brands, new opportunities, and new experiences that they may not have previously known about or they may not have previously felt like were open to them, you know? So I know for a lot of--for a lot of black people in the community, we--we almost self-segregate with a lot of things, you know? We look at things as, "Oh, that's white people stuff. We don't really--we don't really mess with that," whether it be, you know, simple stuff or the wild stuff like bungee jumping or skydiving, which I'm still kind of on the fence on. Like, they might be able to keep those. [laughs] But even things like, you know, eating at different restaurants or trying different festivals and experiences. Just really making it more palatable for--you know, for the black community, because there are plenty of people in the black community that say, "Hey, I want to live life. I've only got one life. I want to enjoy it while I'm here," and finding the opportunities for them that will enhance their lives is really the big overarching goal for us, but also highlighting the black businesses that are trying that as well along the way.Zach: So it's interesting, right? So I looked at the platform, and, you know, I think what I was taken most aback by was the amount of content, right? Like, you guys--it seems like you guys are publishing something every single day, and so talk to me a little bit about y'all’s challenges in getting this started up and, you know, what goes into managing a digital magazine. How do you juggle--it seems that there's a lot of hats to juggle. It seems that there's a lot of things to do, and I understand that you're also working full-time still.Nick: Yes.Zach: So how do you manage all of that?Nick: I manage that with a lot of stress--a lot of stress, not a lot of sleep, and an overdose of patience, because we do have a small team. We're always looking--like, we're always looking for new writers to bring on-board, but right now we do have a small team, and it's really just a matter of balancing everyone's talents and abilities. Like, for the time being I take on the burden--I take on the bulk of the burden by handling a lot of the administrative tasks. So, like, making sure that content is up on the website, proofreading the content, gathering all of the materials. So that might be, like, getting the photos in order, sorting it--like, sorting our files and documents online. So I do a lot of that stuff, and so I have the writers, and I say, "Hey, I want you to focus on writing," and the plan that I have right now is really to kind of spread that load across--across the team so no one person is having to do all of the writing. 'Cause everybody--like, to my knowledge, everybody else is working full-time somewhere as well. So what I would rather them do is each person write, you know, one or two things a month, and we could be able to keep a steady flow than expecting one person to churn out, you know, a new article every week, you know? And with balancing it with working--like, I work full-time, and for me it's kind of difficult 'cause I work 12-hour shifts. So a lot of my work is done--I guess done at night, so I'm usually up until about 1:00 in the morning making sure that content is looking good, there's no errors and we're gonna be good to go.Zach: So I have another question as a follow-up, right, really to the title of Black Texas Magazine. Has anyone run up on you with, "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that would be racist?"Nick: Not that directly, but it's been one of those side--like, side-swiped questions. Like, "Hm, why is it just for black people?" And kind of insinuating that, and to that I would say, to be honest, most of the public--like, most of the Texas-based publications we have are catered to a white audience. And, you know, I'm not opposed to--I'm not opposed to acknowledging that it may seem--it may come off as a bit contentious to say, "This is a publication for black people," you know, but at the same time it's never been a situation of, you know, "No whites allowed," you know? We've had--we've had white contributors to our publication. We have a lot of white readers. We have readers all over the world, and most of those aren't, you know, nations of color. And so I would say if they want--if they asked the question or they posed the question or the statement "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that'd be racist," I would tell them, "Well, let's go read Texas Highways. Let's go read Texas Monthly. Let's go read Texas Lifestyle." The list could go on. Most publications are catering to a white audience. Like, they may not be as blatant as to say it, but it's one of those--I would say it's one of those underlying things of once you see the subject matter you--there are ways of siphoning out certain groups by the content.Zach: Right. And, you know, it's funny because I think it's easy to forget that white is the default, right? Like, it's--like, you don't have to call something for it to be--the majority of the country is white, so most of the content out there in any type of media is largely going to be white, right? So you don't have to call--I don't have to call something white, something anything, but you do call things--you know, if there is other underrepresented groups, black, XYZ, or Asian-this or Latin-X or Hispanic-this because we're trying to highlight the fact that this is not the default, right? It's not what you immediately consider when you think about whatever audience or population that you're gonna be engaging. Okay, so let me ask you this. You know, you guys landed J Prince recently, [inaudible] J Prince, but how did that happen for you guys? Like, how did it work, and what was that experience like?Nick: For me, honestly, it was an amazing experience. I lucked into it because I got--I got an email from the city of Austin about an event that they were co-hosting. It was just an evening with J Prince where he was just hearing Austin talking about his life, and I went, and I was like--I didn't know what to expect, and I was just like, "Man, I just want to see this guy in person, see, you know, really what he's about and just kind of, you know, measure him up instead of just looking through a screen," and it was a cool event. The event went off really well, and at the end there was a line to, like, you know, take a picture with him and stuff, and I was like, "Okay, cool." You know, "I don't mind getting a picture with J Prince. That'd be kinda cool," and so I get in line, and as always they're trying to sell the book or sell merchandise and stuff like that, and just out of, you know, the spur of the moment I'm like, "I'll buy the book," and so I get the book, and when it's my turn he autographs the book and everything, and I ask him a question, and the question I asked him is, you know, "Hey--" Like, he talks about--he talked a lot about, you know, replacing IGs with OGs in terms of, you know, getting off of social media and really linking up with people that have done what we do before us and really gaining some knowledge from them, especially, like, in different entertainment avenues. A lot of the OGs that we came up with came up through nefarious ways, you know? They sold drugs, they robbed people. They committed crimes to get the assets that they needed, and so I asked him, you know, "How can we look up to these OGs and get advice from them when we're at a age where we don't want to take those penitentiary chances to make it into the industry?" And I think it kind of--it kind of put him on the spot, and he stopped and he said, "You know what? Talk to me after the show."Zach: You asked him--you asked him that in front of a bunch of people?Nick: No, it was--like, it was a one-on-one thing. I asked him, like, face-to-face, maybe two feet away from him.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Well, shout out to you for asking J Prince such a very pointed question to his face.Nick: You can't get the answers you don't ask for.Zach: [laughs] That's a good point.Nick: You know? 'Cause I would love to be in different indust--like, involved in different industries, but I don't wanna have to go sell coke to get the money for it.Zach: Straight up, yeah.Nick: But at the same time, trying to save money from a regular 9-to-5 is a very slow process.Zach: And this is the thing I think people forget, like, man, the blessing of an--you cannot, you cannot undervalue initial capital, man. Like--so you know, like, even when you talk about Jay-Z's album, the last album he dropped right, and he was talking about how I flipped this, and it's like, "Well, Jay-Z, man, you started off with, like, 400 racks. You had $400,000 from the coke game, so you say." So it's like, "Okay, yeah." If you--if you gave a very ambitious, you know, entrepreneurial person of color $400,000, man, that's gonna--yeah, they could flip that into something too. I'm not saying--they might not flip it into a billion, but they can flip it into something because they have the initial capital. So to your point, like, how--that just was such a good question because, like, okay, I'ma talk--if I talked to Jay-Z for an hour, people would say, "I'd love to talk to Jay-Z for an hour 'cause then I would learn how to be a billionaire." It's like, "Well, Jay-Z's gonna be like, "Well, I had initial capital of $400,000 because I sold drugs, and it was tax free. So I basically started with a 400--" Like, most black people don't have seed money, hundred thousand dollar seed money. They have a little bit of change here and there that they scrounge up, like you said. Like, that they hold over from their full-time job after paying off this and paying off that and whatever debt they have, and they have, you know, a little bit of change, not enough money to build an empire. You know what I'm saying?Nick: Absolutely, and that was--and after listening to Jay-Z's album, that was one of the things that I kind of left with. I was like, you know, "He talks a lot about, you know, these amazing ways to do better," and it's one of those things of "If you knew better, you'd do better." And that's cool. Like, I would love to buy a piece of art that's worth, you know, 1 million, hold it until it's worth 2 million, sell it when it's worth 10 million. That's cool. I would love to be able to give that to my children, but I gotta get that first million.Zach: Right. [laughs]Nick: It's easy--it's easy to compound wealth once you have it, and a lot of rappers talk about that part, but they don't really tell us how we can get the money, how we can get started without selling drugs, without robbing people. That's--like, that's the link they never give us, and I think that unfortunately that's because a lot of them don't have the answer for that, aside from "Sell drugs. Rob people." And that's an unfortunate truth. Like, I get it, that's the environment they came up in, but if we're trying to do better now we need new lessons.Zach: Right, right. So let me ask--let me ask you this. What advice would you have for black and brown folks trying to get, you know, multi-effort ventures off of the ground? So you have a full-time job. You've launched a magazine. It takes multiple hands, driving it and grinding it. It clearly--like you said earlier, it's stress. It's late nights. What are you--what advice would you have for folks who look like us trying to do similar things?Nick: The strongest advice I would give is work together. In college I ran a midterm program, and one of the things I taught was the idea of collective development. You know, especially if you're starting off with little to no capital. You're--like, you're working at a point where you're not getting paid. You need to find a team of people who are willing to work with you to build something up that benefits everybody, you know? Like, Black Texas isn't just me. It's not the Nick Bailey show, you know? My byline comes up very little. For me, I look at it as a plat--as I'm creating a platform to advance the careers of other people, you know? Because as we gain our audience and as we, you know, get that brand retention, that brand recognition, people start coming to the website looking for other people. They're not looking for me, you know? They're looking to see, "Oh, let's see what's up with these movie reviews. Let's see what's up with these fashion tips. Let's see what's up with these house-keeping tips." You know, "What events are coming up?" I want--I want people looking for the thoughts and ideas of other people, and for me in my particular situation I can say, "Hey, I can't pay you to write right now, but what I can give you is an opportunity to grow your name," because not everybody has the money to start up a website, you know? Even the cheapest websites that aren't free aren't cheap. Once you get past the, you know, this is BrandXYZ.WordPress.com and you get to just Brand.com, it becomes a different--a different financial burden, and not everybody--not everybody is willing to take that risk, and I've gotten to a point where I took that risk to--ideally to make it easier for other people. So I would say, you know, one, be willing to work together. Understand the vision. Don't just work for anybody, but understand the vision. Understand what it means for you personally and how it's going to benefit you personally, and then you give it your all, you know? Like, that's the truest thing that I can tell anyone, and also set ego aside, you know? Not everybody's going to be #1, and not everybody needs to be #1. You can easily do amazing as a strong #2, and what I mean by that is not everybody has to be a CEO. Not everybody has to be the founder, the president. You know? Like, I don't introduce myself as the founder or CEO of Black Texas because that's not important to me, you know? I want this to be something much bigger than myself. I'm the editor-in-chief, which is just to say I'm the guy steering the ship right now, you know? Like, I don't look at the--I don't look at the Dallas Cowboys and think of who the owner is, I look at the Cowboys and think of who are their star players, you know? Who are the people who made the team breathe? And that's how I look at--that's how I look at Black Texas and really any business, you know? We know--we know who Mark Zuckerberg is. That's cool. He made it that way. He's not the one looking at all this Russia info. He's not the one making sure that you wind up in Facebook jail for some post, [laughs] and those people may not have the fame, but they're getting us all a paycheck.Zach: Right. Right, right. Man, this has been dope, man. Do you have any shout outs for us?Nick: I did not think of shout outs. Let's see. If there are people I'd shout out, honestly I would just give shout outs to my team. It's been--like, we launched this year mid-January, and it's been a wild ride along the way. I've taken risks. I've asked them to follow me, and they have, and we really--we really made a lot of strides this year, and I'm proud to see the work they're putting in and what we're able to accomplish when we work together, you know? This is the first time that I've really steered a team like this, and to see them, you know, putting up the hard work is honestly amazing. I would want to give a shout out to my family, you know? Like, I love my daughters, but most importantly, like, my parents. They have been a well of support for me. They've encouraged me to, you know, chase my dreams. They've helped me when I--like, when I wasn't sure about myself, and, you know, my grandma's been my day one, and she's helped me in life as well, but I don't know. I would say--if I had to give a specific shout out it would be to my father, and that's because he gave me the capital to get this magazine started, you know? 'Cause, like, every year he'll give--like, he'll give a gift for Christmas, which really isn't a gift to me, it's more of a "Hey, here's some money from me. Get gifts for the girls," because he doesn't really--he doesn't really celebrate Christmas. Different religion. That's not really his thing, and so I get it, but this last year he gave me a little more than usual, and he said, you know, "Take this and do what, you know, you feel you need to do with it," and I was just at a loss, and I thought and I thought about it. I strategized, and I prayed over it, and I said, "You know, I have to be willing to take that jump," you know? It called me back to a quote from Steve Harvey talking about getting to success, and he said, you know, "You have to be willing to jump. You can't be successful on the ledge," and so I went for it. And so, you know, I've got to give it my all because I can't--I can't let folks down. That's not my thing.Zach: Awesome, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You have been listening to Nick Bailey, editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

Nick:Hello，everyone！This is5 Minutes’ with AOPA China, welcome aboard! You are with me myself Nick and ourdear Claire. Claire:Hi, everyone~ Nick:5 Minutes’ with AOPA China is a brand new podcast which will give you thenewest hot topic weekly in aviation, especially general aviation at home andabroad. Claire:That’s right. 5 Minutes’ with AOPA China is produced by international affairsdept, made by Nick and Claire, sent to you by AOPA China. I’m sure you willenjoy listening to our short show. Nick:Yes. For the first ever episode, I can’t wait to start with the content.Claire, have you seen the movie Captain Sully? Captain Sully saved the lives ofall passengers aboard in the case of aircraft malfunction during flight. Claire:Yeah, Liu Chuanjian（刘传建）, the captain of Flight 3U8633, is praisedas China’s captain sully. He heroically saved more than 100 passengers and crewmembers on the flight on May 14thwhen the windshield on theco-pilot side in ...

Episode 173: Drama Teachers: How do you give student writers feedback? Nick Pappas wears many hats. He is a playwright, a director, he teaches and he's a dramaturg. This conversation took place at the International Thespian Festival where for the past five years he's worked with student playwrights. How do you give student playwrights feedback? Listen in to find out. Show Notes Nick Pappas Theatrefolk.com Drama Teacher Academy Episode Transcript Welcome to the Drama Teacher Podcast brought to you by Theatrefolk, the Drama teacher resource company. I am Lindsay Price. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening! So, we've got a new year – hello, 2017 – and a new shiny intro. Huh, what do you think? We here at Theatrefolk Global Headquarters are focusing our efforts all on you. Yes, you. I am, I'm talking to you. Yes; no, not them. You. This is Episode 173 and you can find any links to this episode in the show notes which are at Theatrefolk.com/episode173. Today, we're talking playwriting, specifically student playwriting. How many of you – raise your hands, I know – you want to include playwriting but there's something about it and it's something specifically that is very trepidatious and worrisome when it gets to feedback, right? How do we give good feedback to student writers that doesn't cause them to put their play in a drawer and never open that drawer for twenty-five years? Today, we're talking to Nick Pappas. He's a guy who wears many hats. He's a playwright and a director. He teaches. He's a dramaturg and he is Theatrefolk's play submission reader. So, he hits on all sides of the table when it comes to plays. But, as I said, we're talking specifically about student feedback and giving feedback and how do you give that good feedback. How do you get that good feedback? Well, let's get to it and find out. LINDSAY: All right. I am here with Nick Pappas. Hello, Nick! NICK: Hello! LINDSAY: Nick and I are at the International Thespian Festival right now which will be long over by the time this comes up, but we are going to talk about something which is – universal is not exactly the word I'm looking for – timeless is the word I'm looking for. NICK: There you go. LINDSAY: There you go. It doesn't quite matter but we're in a really unique situation right now, wouldn't you say? NICK: Yes. LINDSAY: Nick and I are both working as dramaturgs as part of a program called Playworks in which four student playwrights are chosen. Do you know how many plays are sent in to Playworks? NICK: I think it goes from a process of I heard they get about 70 plays and then the 70 are reduced down to, like, ten or twelve. LINDSAY: And then, they choose the four. NICK: Yeah. LINDSAY: And those four playwrights from – it's just the States – all of the states, they get brought to Lincoln, Nebraska for the International Thespian Festival and they get a director and a dramaturg and actors and we put up their plays. NICK: Yeah, in four days of rehearsal? LINDSAY: We had three this year. NICK: Oh, that's true. LINDSAY: Because auditions on Tuesday, Wednesday – oh, my gosh – we had Tuesday rehearsal, Wednesday rehearsal, Thursday rehearsal, and then… NICK: Up on Friday. LINDSAY: There's a little bit today and then you guys go up tomorrow. NICK: Correct. LINDSAY: And so, we're going to talk about what it's like to talk to a student playwright because a lot of you, I know, include playwriting units in your program. How to talk to students, how to give them feedback so that they continue writing and they don't curl up into a ball and never write again which is not what we want. I wanted to start with you, Nick. That's my preamble. NICK: All right. LINDSAY: You wear a lot of hats. NICK: Yes. LINDSAY: The three that I know are playwright and teacher and dramaturg. NICK: Yes. LINDSAY: What would you consider your biggest ha...

Green Meadows Beef is an unique family business providing grass feed beef direct to the consumer. This is the story how the Carey family have built their business of providing raw materials to the end user and the way they have used social media to take it to market     Today’s guest is Nick Carey, Director and General Manager of Green Meadows Beef based in Taranaki.  Green Meadows Beef is a unique family business who have built their business primarily using online and social media platforms.  The business has experienced tremendous growth over the last five years.  Craig and Nick talk about what started as an offbeat idea that has become big business for his family.   In 2012, his family decided they wanted to add value to their products.  This propelled them to launch a paddock to plate system.  This involved shipping products from their farm through their own processing and distribution channels.  Their direct-to-market through online sales has formed a big growth part of their business.   Nick’s father, suggested for them to try and market their beef product directly to the consumer.  They sat together as a family and formed a new way to get their products to the market, and soon, they recognized the opportunity of selling online. This propelled them to launch a paddock to plate system.  This involved shipping products from their farm through their own processing and distribution channels.  Their direct-to-market through online sales has formed a big growth part of their business.   Nick started his career as a commercial lawyer in Wellington and New Plymouth His role in this new family business was in the development, branding, and logistics.  Soon enough this was taking most of his time and he eventually decided he needed to quit his job as a lawyer.    That was a leap of faith for Nick, who has had to adjust to being an entrepreneur.  There were four key problems Green Meadows Beef was solving for the consumer.  These were (1) Time saving (2) Ease of purchase (3) Quality assurance, (4) Provenance.   Nick and Craig also talk about how wildly successful My Food Bag has become.  It is a website that allows it’s customers to order a food bag for a varied number of people.  It is also customized for them in terms of the number of people and their diet.  My Food Bag has revolutionized the industry.  Countdown eventually came up with a similar concept of online selling.  There was a big shift in the market of people being more open to purchasing food products online.  That assured Green Meadows Beef of its market.    In terms of marketing research, they were lucky that Green Meadows Beef was nimble enough to adapt their offering as well.  This included having to tweak their operations on the way.  They started out selling bulk-frozen packs and delivering them through chilled or frozen trucks.  However, it has now evolved to a point where they can customize their own products and deliver them the next day, chilled, through a courier.   Nick’s journey has not been without challenges.  One day, his company’s freight company informed him that they were no longer going to deliver Nick’s frozen meat packs.  As a result, he was forced to change his business model, which led to better results because they are now selling fresh produce instead of frozen produce.   Another challenge Nick has had to face was the price of raw materials.  Over the last three to four years, the price of raw materials has almost doubled.  At the same time. One of the things that has raised the price of the raw product is the price that it can otherwise be sold elsewhere.  Export of demand has been high.   They now run their farm as a separate business from their meat processing.  Each company has different governance, advisers, and processes.  Ensuring that the two businesses were independent of each other will help with succession planning and will force each one to be profitable on its own.  .  However, with the easing off of demand in the United States, the farm gate prices have been affected.    Nick learned to focus on the role of governance and the value of the right independent advice.  Another crucial area that Nick has focused on is being able to get accurate and timely business information, dealing with changes in technology and how scalable that is, and finally, achieving a profitable core business before evolving into other paths.   Another thing that Nick has focused on is learning how to work with his people.  Getting the right staff onboard has been a good learning experience for him.  He makes sure his employees have clearly defined roles, responsibilities, and reporting lines so that he could focus on working on the business and growing it.  Nick has been able to retain his staff for 4 years now.  He hardly needed to do cold hires because he utilized the benefits of his networks.   As for online selling, Nick uses mostly social media such as Facebook and Twitter to connect with people and to build an audience.  They do mostly paid advertising now.  He initially did everything in-house but has started outsourcing it already using a marketing consultant who works remotely for them.   In terms of content, Nick suggests that you keep it personal, relevant, and fun to keep his customers engaged.  With competition sprouting up more, there is a need to ensure that you get heard.  Nick’s friend once said that content is king but engagement is queen and she rules the house.  You need to be able to engage your followers.    Currently, they are on Pinterest and Instagram but it has been a challenge to maintain everything.  They use third party tools to help with the marketing side.  They also use cloud based systems that help cut costs and get things done.   What Nick enjoys about being in business is building something from the ground up, seeing the evolution of that business, and having a chance to enjoy its success.    As a lawyer, Nick had a structured and disciplined career.  At the moment, he says he has very little structure in his life now.  Working with creative types, for example, causes him to work longer hours and deadlines extended.  He deals with it by communicating well with his people.  He says that if you spend a good portion of your day through communicating, it makes the day go so much better. This goes back to having structures in place so the rest of the team can function harmoniously while you’re communication with them.    Nick’s challenge working with his family is ensuring that there is regular communication in terms of what’s happening in the business as well as asking for feedback.  He suggests that there has to be a clear distinction of business and family time.  It is important that everyone gets their chance to have a say but at the end of it, they are able to sit down and have dinner together.   In terms of having external professionals and mentors for his business, Nick says that one of the critical things is finding the right independent advice.  His solution has been to persevere until you find exactly what you need at a particular time.  As your business continues to change, so does the levels of advise.  Nick has found that having an independent director has helped him fill the skills gap.  Engaging the services of experts can be beneficial to his business as well.    Nick does not dwell on the past.  His company has a year end review where they identify what worked and what didn’t so that in the future, they can learn from these experiences. Nick says that in hindsight, he would have focused on margin analysis in his business and having a better handle on his cash flow and budget.  This has become one of their strengths and has allowed them to diversify the business for a more consistent cash inflow.   Being content in terms of business and the industry that you’re in is a mistake that business owners make.  As an example, the evolution of online selling has had an effect on traditional purchasing.  Nick suggests that you need to stay on top of things and not rest on your laurels because you don’t know what’s around the corner.   Strengthen your core business and ensure that it is profitable and sustainable before you venture out into other business opportunities.  At the moment, there is a need to develop relationships with consumers because people want to know where there food comes from, how it’s produced, and what’s going on.    Visit www.GreenMeadowsBeef.co.nz for more information.   TRANSCRIPT NICK CAREY    Craig: Hi guys!  Craig here from The Project Guys. Today in our podcast, really happy to introduce Nick Carey.  Nick is a Director and General Manager of Green Meadows Beef based here in Taranaki.  Green Meadows Beef is a unique family business who built the business primarily using online and social media platforms.  They specialise in suppling New Zealand consumers’ grass fed premium beef, where you online, and delivered to your door in twenty four hours.  And their business has experienced tremendous growth over the last five years.  What started as an offbeat idea and working from home office is now having their own dedicated butchery and retail premises and offices.  So, welcome Nick.   Nick: Thanks Craig.  Thanks for giving me the opportunity to tell a little bit about our story.    Craig: No drama at all! . Tell us a little bit about your background and why you decided to go into business.   Nick: Well, my background was as a commercial lawyer for a few years both in Wellington and New Plymouth.  We as a family, I guess, back in 2012, decided that we wanted to add value to the products we were producing which was mainly meat or beef and as a way to, I guess, cement the family farm and those plans through a formal succession plan, we decided to launch an integrated pallet to plate business which is shipping products from our farm through our own channels and processing channels, as Craig mentioned, direct consumers New Zealand wide through the different channels we utilise it at supermarkets, restaurants, and caterers and of course, direct-to-market through online sales, which is our biggest growth part of the business.   Craig: So, you’ve mentioned that you were a lawyer and then from a lawyer to an entrepreneur, it’s not a traditional path, was it your idea to do businesses with family?  How did it all sort of evolve?   Nick: Yeah.  Evolve is probably the right thing to say.  It was my father’s idea to try and market the products.  Obviously, we soon recognised online was a much easier path than let’s say the traditional paths of standing at farmer’s markets or carport sales or whatever it may be where other people are maybe trying to sell similar products.  So it’s at that time, all of us, I’ve got two siblings.   We all became involved to help form a plan to get the products to market and I helped here on the side with development and branding and things and arranging all of that and then once we launched the business, it became pretty evident that I wouldn’t be able to continue in my day job and helping out with the business.  So it was about, I guess, 3 months in that I gave up…   Craig: Oh, that quick! Yeah.  Yeah.   Nick: Yeah.  Yeah.…full-time paid employment to jump into the business.   Craig: To be poor for a couple of years.    Nick: Yes!  Yes!    Craig: [laughs]   Nick: Forever.    Craig: Forever.  [laughs] Yes!  Yes!  So, when you started, obviously, it was just quite a bit different and there’s a new concept.  Get away from the farmer’s markets or selling to a wholesaler, direct….did you guys do any market research and that actually work out where you had a legitimate market and business…   Nick: Uhm…   Craig: And what are the problems you’re solving which are and I suppose were time saving and ease for the purchaser, wasn’t it?   Nick: That and also quality and provenance.  So those are I guess the 4 key messages or key problems we’re solving for the consumer.   Craig: Yeah.  Yeah.   Nick: In New Zealand, at that time, there was a limited range of producers doing what we were doing.  Certainly that landscape has changed now and more and more are coming on board to be…whether it’s in meat or other ___ farm products or whatever.  The launch of things like MyFoodBag and you know and the whole…   Craig: Which is wildly successful.   Nick: Exactly.   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: And a great example of success in this market.   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: So I guess in…when the business was in its infancy, there was only a couple of competitors in New Zealand.  I don’t even think Countdown had really launched their…   Craig: Right.   Nick: Online sales at that time so obviously, we’ve noticed a big shift in the market and people being far more open to purchasing food products online.  So, with our research, it was really based on looking at producers in Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States, seeing what they were doing, what offerings they had.   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: And obviously, because we…we were selling online, just online only at the start, it did allow us some chance to scale as time went on so there was no pressure of having products ready to go with no markets.   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: So I guess, we…we are currently on to building website number three.   Craig: Right.   Nick: So there has been multiple chances to refine the offering based on our own learnings…   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: Rather than…than doing too much…   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: market research at the beginning, I guess, which  potentially a pitfall…   Craig: Yeah.  But…   Nick: that were fallen into but we’ve been lucky that we’ve been nimble enough to be able to adapt that offering to…   Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…   Nick: to see that…what does that mean?   Craig: Yeah.  Oh, it’s a case sometimes of getting that ___ to market and then work out having to… and having to tweak everything on the way, isn’t it…   Nick: Exactly.  We’ve started out in our industry selling bulk frozen packs and delivering it via the chilled or frozen trucks…   Craig: Yes.   Nick: all over the country where it could take anything from a week to two weeks.   Craig: Right.   Nick: To be delivered to the model that we have now and it’s evolving as you can customise and pick and choose your own products…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: …and it’s delivered the next day, chilled via courier, so…   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: You know, there’s different challenges that come at you and one of that for example was the freight company telling us, “No, we’re no longer gonna deliver your frozen meat packs.”  So…   Craig: Oh, is that right?   Nick: So your business if often forced to change…   Craig: Yes.   Nick: …which can obviously lead to better results…   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: …because the consumer appreciates…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: fresh produce versus…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: frozen produce.    Craig: So there.  So tell us a bit more about the challenges and the learnings you had in those early years and maybe also the challenges you’re facing now and how that evolved?   Nick: Definitely.  I guess the critical challenge for us been the price of our raw materials.   Craig: Alright.   Nick: Just to put them in a little bit of context and background, we run the farm as a totally separate business from the meat processing…   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: Different governance, different advisers, everything and we thought that was a critical distinction from a…   Craig: Uhm…   Nick: …a governance point of view particularly in the family situation so that we had two separate business which were hopefully, hopefully independent of each other, both supporting…   Craig: Uhm…   Nick: …themselves.  So…   Craig: Also that.  I guess it also helps with succession planning too.  Exit strategy is one [incomprehensible]…   Nick: Exactly.  And obviously that’s what we’re focusing…   Craig: Uhm…   Nick: The meat processing business now is taking on a life of its own with contract manufacturing…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: …and things like that so…obviously anytime, I mentioned it at the start that the farm is very much part of the succession plan but if there were something that caused the farm to go, well, we’ve got another business…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: And vice versa, we could always onsell the meat processing side of things.   Craig: Uhm…uhm…uhm…   Nick: …and keep the farm…   Craig: That’s right.   Nick: But so…part of it is that the farm must obviously make a profit…   Craig: Yes…   Nick: So we have to purchase the animals that we’re using through the Green Meadows Business from the farm at the prevailing market rate…   Craig: Yes…   Nick: Over the last three to four years, that price of raw materials has almost doubled…   Craig: Oh sh….   Nick: Without a corresponding rise in meat prices at the consumer end…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: There’s still a certain barrier at the consumer end as to what a sausage or whatever may cost so I guess that’s been the critical challenge that we’ve face and we’ve had to really adapt and change our product offering.  So…   Craig: So what’s driven the price of the raw product up?  Is it the price on the farm to produce that product?   Nick: No, it’s the price that it can otherwise be sold elsewhere...   Craig: Oh, okay.   Nick: So, export demand, primarily out of the U_S where ground beef, easier ground beef is exported…   Craig: Okay…   Nick: …to the U_S and it’s been in quite high demand in particularly out of China as well…   Craig: Right.   Nick: So, depending on what’s happening in those markets, I’m assuming we’re seeing an easing off in the United States at the moment on demand which, of course, is then having a…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: …a correlation back to farm gate prices here.   Craig: Cool…   Nick: So I guess with that challenge, we learned quite a lot and kind of like it’s focused a lot on what’s happened in the business so there are a couple of points off the top of my head…   Craig: Yes…Yeah…   Nick: I guess the role of governance and the value of the right independent advice has been a critical things that we’ve taken from it, I guess the information we’re pulling out of the business in terms or accurate and timely…   Craig: Yup…   Nick: …business information, technology and how scalable that is, what machines can really make our day better…   Craig: Right.   Nick: Versus culling out some of those manual processes, cause obviously, bearing in mind making food can sometimes be a relatively manual process…   Craig: Yup!  Yeah…   Nick: And then it all comes back to achieving a profitable core business before evolving into other paths.  So, we’ve really focused over the last year or two on what is our core business, how to make it profitable before launching into some other opportunities as well.    Craig: So how do you take yourself out of the business to work on the business around those things you just…   Nick: Yeah, well, as the businesses continue to grow, we’ve been able to put staff into roles that I was otherwise doing, so for example, we’ve just taken on an operations manager who is handling most of the day-to-day production and supply side of the business whereas I’m just handling the demand side and obviously everything else.  So the finances and working on the business so, I guess that’s been a good learning is getting the right staff on board, making sure that they have clearly defined roles and responsibilities and reporting lines so that that then frees you up to do as you say, “working on the business,” and growing it.  So we have that clearly…clear definition of okay, operations manager was gonna focus on the supply side and production, I was gonna handle the demand, so that’s where my focus is now…is on the demand side and when you’ve got the right people and the right positions, everything is fine and it works well.    Craig: So, you’ve gotta run on a fierce podcast business and about staffing.  How’d you go and find the right staffing?  How’d you know?  Do you know?  [laughs]   Nick: I guess, that’s a good question, “Do you know?”   Craig: Cause that’s critical, isn’t it?   Nick: It is and we are fortunate that in nearly 4 years, we’ve retained all our staff which I guess, obviously speaks of our environment also.  The direction that we’re pushing the company.  It…it’s…I guess it comes down to clear jobs…just clear job descriptions when you’re going so you know exactly who you’re looking for so when you find them, you know, they tick all the boxes and utilising the benefit of networks because all of our staff have been knowing to….   Craig: Someone…someone…   Nick: Yeah.    Craig: Someone who knows somebody…Yeah…   Nick: Exactly, so now I’m doing that thing with cold hires but I can see that the next thing we’re already looking for our next staff member, which is scary…   Craig: Yeah…   Nick: But I can see that that will be a cold…a cold hire so I guess that will come down to getting clear…clear pre-employment checks and questions and also making sure they’re the right fit for the…   Craig: thing…   Nick: Exactly.   Craig: Cool.  Awesome.  So, you have used a lot of online tools and platforms that you’ve touched on before to build the business to where it is.  Tell us about the strategy and has that changed over the years and if so, how or….yeah…   Nick: Yeah…It’s a different __part obviously with online selling.  You wanna connect with customers in real time and I guess social media in particular is great for that.  We’ve primarily used Facebook and Twitter for the connecting with people and building an audience at the beginning.  I guess how that’s changed is we’ve now moved from just connecting with customers and building that brand and that relationship through the more paid advertising now.  So we do a lot of online marketing in terms of ECO and pre marketing and also direct marketing through the likes of Facebook.  So, I guess it’s building a network and a platform, which would then turn into an opportunity to market, so…   Craig: Did you do all that in-house, or do you outsource it?   Nick: We did start all that in-house but now I’ve outsourced it.  We have a marketing consultant who works remotely for us, who handles all that ECO and ECM marketing.   Craig: And what about all your Facebook engagement?  Cause I know when you first start your business, you’re massive on engaging with your audience, you do a lot of that at the start.  Is that still done in-house?  Or…   Nick: It’s still done in-house and obviously that’s been one of the challenges I found is that I handle that role as the businesses grow, keep it…personal, and keep it relevant and keep it fun which is how we engage with our customers and perhaps that’s something I could be doing better.    Craig: [incomprehensible]   Nick: I think as we came and set the so high with using that as a focus, it’s kind of…you can easily fall by the way, so…   Craig: That’s so much of a big challenge, isn’t it because that’s how you built the brand and showing you some of the loyalty stats.   Nick: And I’m definitely seeing that with other influences that I follow that they came out with a good solid two years of social media engagement and then now it’s sort of dropped back…   Craig: Yes…   Nick: And I don’t know whether that’s just the maturing of the market and there are a lot of these platforms now and monetising, they’re successors, so it now makes it difficult to instigate…seen whereas in the beginning it was relatively easy but I think you raise a good point about engagement because a lot of the focus on social media a few years ago was all about content and posting the right sort of content but now, I know a person who writes and used to podcast a lot of Facebook.  She said that content is king but engagement is queen and she rules the house.   Craig: Yes…   Nick: And it’s sort of something that’s always always stuck with me because you can have great content but if you’re not getting anything back from the people you’re publishing it to, what’s the point?   Craig: Yeah, you could have 100,000 followers but if you’re not engaging them, what’s the point?   Nick: Yes.  So I think, you know, that’s a key thing to keep it at the back of your mind because it’s not a question of numbers because it’s like you said, it’s how they’re engaging.    Craig: You said when you sell your products you use Facebook and Twitter, yet have you tried the other platforms at all?   Nick: We do have a little bit on Pinterest, obviously we’re in a food business and Instagram, but it’s again, it’s the challenge of maintaining everything.  We do use a lot of third party tools to push the marketing side of things which we find works well and we obviously into the day to day side of things prefer to use online tools for managing the business, whether it be accounting software, our website is all run on a third party CMS which is obviously cloud based and what else do we use in the cloud?  Design tools and everything like that that’s all accessible now which really help (a) cut costs and (b) get things done.   Craig: So what do you enjoy most about being in business?  What strokes your ties?   Nick: Tough question, but I guess it’s with building something from the ground up and seeing the evolution it’s having the chancing to leap at success.  There are days obviously that I don’t enjoy leading.    Craig: You wish you were a follower there mate? [laughs]   Nick: Yeah.  Exactly.  When you bring in HR and customer issues and things like that.  Obviously, you want to do a good job, whether it be your staff or your customers but I guess that’s the critical thing is having that chance and opportunity which I do feel fortunate for that you know, we’re in a position that I was able to leave my fulltime employment to follow something which I could see working and it…with just a few challenges and refinements.  We’re now well on a path to making a success.    Craig: Yeah.   Nick: So that’s pretty special and something that I hold dear and try not to abuse really but it is a bit of a privilege to do this so if I can keep looking at it like that, then it’ll keep me focused and also keep me grounded.   Craig: Grounded, which is what New Zealand ___ is all about.  Cool, you hear that?   Nick: Yeah, I guess we at the start to kinda pushed the business and I do believe in it is we did a lot of PR work which is obviously the opposite to the grounded because you’re having to put yourself out there and tell your story and that can be difficult at times especially when you get…things like TV involved, so yeah, I think that’s a good balance to have.    Craig: So, ____ what have you learned from you know, five or six years ago, when you left the safe little confines of a lawyer’s office…   Nick: To me, just by one and a half years…whatever it was…   Craig: You were very structured and disciplined to doing this.  What have you learned as a leader?  Here, professionally and personally?   Nick: Yeah, I guess a couple of things, you do mean structure, I have very little structure in my life now.    Craig: [laughs]   Nick: Just by trying to plan things, you know, obviously things never really go to plan.  So that’s been difficult in terms of deadlines and things like that as I’m understanding how things work in the real world versus a lawyer’s world where 5 o’clock Friday was your excellent deadline and you wouldn’t dare go past 5 o’clock Friday whereas when you start involving perhaps creative types into the mix and deadlines can often extend.    Craig: Yes.   Nick: So that’s been one challenge for me personally and also from a managing or leadership type of thing.  Communication and understanding the importance of communication internally and externally and you can never really over communicate particularly with staff and things of concerns.    Craig: Yeah.   Nick: I guess that’s another that I’ve really learned is you spend a good portion of your day through communicating and it makes the day go so much better.   Craig: Yes.   Nick: But then it comes back to what I mentioned earlier about having the structures in place so that the rest of the team can function harmoniously while you’re communicating with them…the team…   Craig: Yeah.  And what about the family dynamic, isn’t that communications is key?  Sometimes, the family businesses, they can either go really well which is good or goes real bad because one of the first rules of business is don’t ever do business with family members, isn’t it?   Nick: It is.    Craig: Yes, back to the question.  Sorry about the rain everybody!  So I asked Nick about the dynamic of working with some family members.  One of the first rules of business is don’t go into business with family.  So I guess it has worked here.  From a leadership point of view, the communications point of view, have you managed that?   Nick: Yeah, it has been both a benefit and a challenge to go into business with family.  On a daily basis, I work with both of my peer, so on a day to day to basis, I mean, both of my brothers work externally from the business so two problems obviously, or challenges working with family day in day out but also having family interested in the business but not having the experience or benefit of seeing what’s happening day to day so we have pretty regular communications between in terms of what’s happening in the business, asking for feedback that they’re both very helpful and useful, these are my brothers who don’t work in the business.   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: But balancing that you also have a clear distinction of what’s business time and what’s family time because there’s always that tendency to make family time always business time and I think that’s critical particularly in terms of my own domestic situation as well, I’ve got a partner who doesn’t work and the person that’s end to end in terms of say my parents with their grandchildren and things like that.  It’s still got to operate in a normal situation and we are very open with each other so there’s never any issues in terms of overstepping lines or boundaries.   Craig: Yeah.   Nick: And I think it’s really important that everyone gets their chance to have a say but at the end of it, we still sit down for dinner.   Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Cool.  Cool.  So you’ve always had external professionals and mentors for your business and I believe now you’ve got a Board of Directors and an independent director tell us about what made you decide that you needed this and the benefits of using these strategies and advise that is out there around using mentors or Board of Directors, etc.    Nick: I guess one of the critical thing is finding the right advice, independent advice and it can be a struggle at times, so I guess what I sort of found is keep persevering until you find exactly what you need at that particular time and your levels of advice and who can advise you changes as the business continues to change…and…   Craig: Evolves.  As the business evolves…   Nick: Exactly, so I think the best thing you can do is get out there and take advice as step one but then if you’re not getting the right sort of advice is going out and looking for some different advice.   Craig: Yeah.  Yeah.   Nick: So, we’ve had, as you mentioned, a range from formal strategic planning with our accountants through the business mentors through to now an independent director who I work with closely on a daily basis and they’ve all had their uses and purpose but having an independent voice daily looks like some of the skill gaps that we have or that I have as well is really important and I guess that’s what I see the benefit…the main benefit of the independent board is to plug the skill gaps and I mean we are looking now at maybe bringing another independent onto the board who has some different skill set that none of us have secure around dealing with marketing to the end consumer…   Craig: Right.   Nick: And events cg and things like that so it’s…   Craig: So it’s skill gaps or experience gaps?   Nick: I guess both are incredibly relevant because you get the skills from experience so I think yeah.  I think both are intertwined.   Craig: And you said before that when you first started out your sort of a range of advisers, I mean, it’s the right advice.  When you start out were you ever nervous and scared about what’s going on.  So how do you know if you get some right advice?  If you’re speaking to for example an accountant and they say you should be doing this strategy, how do you know, is that the gut instinct or it is…how do you know if it’s the right one or the wrong one?   Nick: Yeah, it’s a good question because I guess when you go into business you’re always confident and pigheaded and you don’t really wanna take advice.   Craig: No.   Nick: And then to sit over the table with someone and, no offence when you’re listening to maybe to sit over the table with someone, no offence to any listeners who may be in the accounting profession or something.   Craig: Someone’s profession…   Nick: Who’s telling you you’re doing this wrong, you’re doing that wrong.  You know, it can be difficult so I think it’s not a case of knowing or choosing what that right advice is at the start but getting a lot of advice and really going out there and getting as much in as you can and taking bits and pieces from different sources to kind of form that plan because you and only you, I guess will know exactly how the business is going internally or what your dreams and goals and things are but it does help to get as much advice from them.   Craig: So that could be what we’ve talked about accountant, but there could be other business owners that could be lawyers, other professionals, and that’s where networking comes in, isn’t it?  You realize that when you network, you understand that same…your peers to having the same issues you have even if they might be in a different industry.   Nick: Exactly and as many people you can speak to as possible.  You know, whether it’s just a friendly ear or someone that you admire, in your industry or a different industry.  It can be really beneficial to have that engagement.    Craig: Awesome, so the benefit of hindsight, we all do this.  What would you do differently?   Nick: Hindsight, oh yeah, it’s a great thing.   Craig: No, it’s not.  It’s a terrible thing!   Nick: I guess that’s one thing our plan is not to dwell too much on the past.  We do a year review the end of each year and pick out the points of what went good and bad and then put it together and then don’t really dwell on it too much because again, it’s what you’re looking into the future that really controls things.  So I guess with hindsight, what I would do it has been more of a focus on margin analysis in our business, so which products work well, where we can extract the most value and also a better handle on cash flow and budget so that financial side of the business from the get-go.  I spend a lot of focus now on cash flow and planning cash flow a couple of months in advance and…   Craig: So you turned into an accountant?   Nick: Yeah, well, I…   Craig: [laughs]   Nick: I think maybe I’m turning into an accountant but that was a chance to really tighten the skill gaps that I had.   Craig: Right.   Nick: In the financial management side of things and now that’s one of our strengths where a lot of similar sized businesses I see don’t have a handle on cash flow, which in my business, can actually be quite difficult with online selling because we don’t know when people are gonna bulk buy meat packs and what’s gonna happen which is why we’ve diversified the business from just straight online sales to other traditional sales so that we’ve got consistent cash flow coming in.   Craig: A little bit of advice to people.  Look after your cash flow and mind your  budget, sounds like you’re good at. A couple of hours a week takes to analyse what else has happened that week which is critical.    Nick: I guess that’s one thing that having an independent director allows me to do because we have a phone call every Friday afternoon, which…   Craig: Hi guys, so from your experiences, what are some of the mistakes that you see business owners are making.  So, we talked a little bit about cash flow.  Anything else that…   Nick: Yeah.  I guess, something a little different and that I can see out there I see is that they are content both in terms of their businesses and their industries and not pushing their boundaries and or doing the… trying alternative ways to do things and obviously in the retail side of things.  I guess something else I am saying is people being content in terms of their…inside their businesses and in terms of marketing their businesses as well so obviously, the example is that the evolution of online selling and the effect it has on traditional purchasing, and brick and mortar stores and it kinda seems like…to some of them that it’s come out of nowhere whereas the evolution of online selling has been happening in time over the last ten years or so.  So I think, I see that both as established businesses and the traditional business being content can often come back to hurt them later on.  So, i mean, that’s something else we noticed and why we’re doing things differently as well.   Craig: So, the moral of the story is don’t be scared of pushing the boundaries and thinking outside the square box, just give it a go.   Nick: And also staying on top of things and not just resting on your laurels because you don’t really know what’s around the corner.   Craig: Don’t be scared of what’s around the corner.    Nick: Yeah.  That’s just saying a little bit no matter how established you are.   Craig: So is that the sort of advice you’d give to…if you were to mentor for a better general word, either both established or a startup…what other things would you…   Nick: Yeah, it’s different keeping on top of thinss, looking overseas, seeing what’s happening whether you’re selling shoes or cats, or whatever.  It’s…there’s a lot to…we’re fortunate in this part of the world that we’re a little behind as well.   Craig: Yes, yes…I was gonna ask that.   Nick: So, it’s kind of a good thing I think for us because we can have a look and see what’s happening overseas.   Craig: You think sometimes, people fall into the trap of going overseas either to Europe or America, seeing something, trying to do it New Zealand but they’re too soon   Nick: And obviously given our market size as well as the other key issue here, and also how spread out the market is.  It’s a long way from the top of the North Island to Steward Island.  Yes, I know, I definitely think that’s true and that’s where the difficulty, I guess comes in with what I just see is…do you become an adopter or do you follow…   Craig: Become second tier.   Nick: Yeah and there’s lot of risk, in obviously going out and being an early adopter and it falling in your face which…   Craig: But then fortune favours the brave and…   Nick: But again coming back to what I mentioned earlier on in the podcast is that’s where you’ve got a profitable and sustainable core being you’ve got those opportunities to go out and expand and you’ve still got that core business to I say loosely, to fall back on but you know…   Craig: Yeah.  To pay the bills…   Nick: Yeah.  Yeah.   Craig: Yeah.  Cool.  Awesome.  And so where do you see your industry going in the next five to ten years?   Nick: Yeah, well in the markets, the direct food market, there’s differently more choice for quality and more relationships with…between consumers and producers so I definitely see that as an important step in what we’re trying to stay ahead of because people increasingly do want to know where their food comes from and how it’s produced and what’s going on so I think it’s only gonna get more and we’re gonna see return as one kind of crystal ball return to a lot traditional ways of doing things because the end user or consumer’s putting a price on all those so in our case, it’s manufactured products and more real products and people are prepared to pay more even though it costs more to produce but that’s where I see it headed.   Craig: Alright.  Cool.  Awesome!   Nick: And you’ll be more disrupters, I’ve already talked about MyFoodBank and seeing markets online so we find those disrupters coming into the market so I guess, listening to my own advice that’s where I need to stay ahead of and say exactly what’s happening in the market and what trends are coming up.   Craig: Awesome.  Awesome.  Hey Nick, we’ll wrap it up.  Thanks very much for your time.  .  How do we find you?   Nick: Yeah so we are an online business.  Our website, so you can check out our products at greenmeadowsbeef.co.nz and find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram with our page will get you there.   Craig: Awesome!  Right.  Thank Nick!  Good stuff!   Nick: Sure!    

Episode 124: Using Theatre in China   Nick Cala is a high school teacher in China. He's putting up a play for the first time with Chinese students who are studying to attend American universities and fully believes in the importance of drama as part of their process. Show Notes Alice Drum Taps Shuddersome: Tales of Poe Hamlette Drop Dead Juliet Other 'Classical Adaptations' at Theatrefolk Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP – The Theatrefolk Podcast – the place to be for Drama teachers, Drama students, and theatre educators everywhere. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. Welcome to Episode 124! You can find any links for this episode at the show notes at theatrefolk.com/124. All righty! So, today, I am talking to a high school teacher in China, Nick Cala. He is in China right now and he is putting up a play for the first time – not at an international school but with Chinese students who are studying to attend American universities – and it just so happens that this first play that he's doing this with is one of ours. He's putting up my adaptation of Alice in Wonderland. When I heard this, I was like, “I have to talk to this guy!” Nick really believes in the importance of drama as part of creating that well-rounded student. How does that translate in another country? In another language? Especially in a school where students are very focused, as you'll hear, on academics. Let's get to it! LINDSAY: All right. Hello everybody! I am sitting here with Nick Cala. Hello, Nick! NICK: Hello! LINDSAY: Hello! Now, we have the wonders of technology working for us again right now because I am sitting here in my house in the early a.m. in North America. Nick, tell everybody where you are. NICK: I'm in Jiangsu, China – very close to Shanghai – and it's in the evening here. LINDSAY: You've had your day already. NICK: Yes! It's almost Thursday here. LINDSAY: It's amazing to me that, well, not only that we're able to do this but that we found you because you're doing some Theatrefolk plays. You're doing Alice, is that right? NICK: Yes! We had auditions and now we're beginning the process of giving the students the script and kind of getting the students to get a sense of their characters. LINDSAY: And are you at an international school? Are you at a Chinese school? Like, who are your students? NICK: My students are Chinese kids who are planning to go to university in America. This is a kind of private center in a Chinese school built around preparing students to go to university in America. LINDSAY: Wow. That's very specific, isn't it? NICK: Yeah, it's a little different than an international school, and it makes for some unique challenges. I mean, the kids are all coming at things with a very different perspective than American kids. LINDSAY: Yeah, okay. We're going to get into that in a second. I just wanted to ask you, how did you end up in China? NICK: Well, the story is this was actually my first teaching job. This is my third year in China and I had taken Chinese in college but it was more or less not because of any intensive interest. It was more because I wanted to try something slightly different. As I took it, I got more and more into it. But, at the same time, I was taking courses in US History and I didn't really expect that they would come together – US History teaching and knowing some Chinese. When I saw the job available, I got very excited and I got lucky enough that it worked out. LINDSAY: Just me being ignorant here – do you have to teach in Chinese or do you teach in English? NICK: Oh, I teach in English. I don't think I could teach in Chinese. My Chinese is not that good. LINDSAY: Okay. And then, here's the twist. You teach history but you are in-charge of the drama club at your school. NICK: Right. LINDSAY: How did that happen?

Today we're talking with Nick Disabato of Draft, a small interaction design consultancy in Chicago. His previous clients include Gravitytank, New Music USA, Chicago Magazine, The Wirecutter, and too many other attractive, intelligent people to count. We spent quite a bit of time talking about his work designing a delightful user experience for Cards Against Humanity. We discuss... Cards Against Humanity marketing strategy Split-testing Conversion rate optimization And more Links: Cards Against Humanity - http://cardsagainsthumanity.com/ Cadence & Slang - http://cadence.cc/ Draft: Revise - https://draft.nu/revise/ Nick's newsletter - http://eepurl.com/vqJgv Visual Website Optimizer - https://vwo.com/ PS: Be sure to subscribe to the podcast via iTunes and write a review. iTunes is all about reviews! Transcript Recording: This is the Unofficial Shopify Podcast with Kurt Elster and Paul Reda, your resources for growing your Shopify business, sponsored by Ethercycle. Kurt: Welcome to the Unofficial Shoplift Podcast. I'm your host, Kurt Elster and with me today is Nick Disabato from Draft. Nick, how are you doing? Nick: Doing fantastic. How are you, man? Kurt: I'm well. Where are you at? Nick: I live and work in Logan Square, a neighborhood in Chicago and have been here for the past seven years. I've been independent for the past 3-1/2. Kurt: That's good. I'm about right miles from you in Park Ridge. It's funny we're doing this over Skype but we're like a bus ride apart. Nick: We are. We're probably a short L ride apart. Kurt: Tell me, who's Nick D? Nick: Nick D is me as I exist on the Internet and I run a small design consultancy called Draft as you mentioned and we do a lot of things. I publish books. I do monthly A/B testing for people. I run the world's stupidest newsletter but what I think we're here to be talking about is my one-off interaction design product, just more typical client work, more consulting work. I've done it for a variety of e-commerce clients and solved a lot of really interesting problems for both mobile and desktop and I think about these sorts of things a lot. That's kind of ... Kurt: For the lay person, what's interaction design? Nick: Interaction design, it's the process of making something easier to use and it involves hacking out the layout and behavior of a product. That can range from prototyping something and running it by users to see how they enjoy using it or whether they're successful at completing goals within it. It can range from promoting certain design decisions and hacking out functionality. It can involve figuring out edge cases like if you type in a really long response that doesn't belong in a certain form field, what happens? If you click here, what happens? It's figuring out to choose your own adventure capacity of going through a technology product of any type. I've worked... Kurt: It sounds like you're a problem solver for your clients. Give me a good example of a problem you solved with interaction design. Nick: We'll talk about e-commerce stuff. One of my biggest clients over the past few years was a board game company called Cards Against Humanity. Kurt: I dearly love Cards Against Humanity. Tell us about it. Nick: For your audience, if you do not know Cards Against Humanity, it's similar to a card game called Apples to Apples where I'm a person judging a card and everybody else plays another card only it's usually quite inappropriate. You have weird poop jokes or [scathalogical 00:03:03] things. Kurt: The favorite combo I ever got, the winning combo I ever got out of Cards Against Humanity, I will never forget. It was "Santa gives the bad children genital piercings." That was genius. Nick: My personal favorite is 'What's the last thing Michael Jackson thought about before he died?' and somebody played Michael Jackson. Kurt: That one is layers on layers. Nick: Oh my God, I still think about it. It's amazing. I've worked with them to define all of the layout and behavior for their e-commerce system. They now have, in addition to Amazon, you can buy stuff directly through them. You go through and they run through Stripe. It's not through Shopify but it's entirely independent and entirely custom. What they wanted was something that worked pretty well on mobile and they wanted something that was a little more unconventional to fit their business's needs. Cards Against Humanity, for those of you who don't know, they're a relatively unconventional business just in terms of their tone and in the way that they carry themselves and the way that they deal with their customers. Kurt: That has totally differentiated and set them apart. Nick: Yes. I think a large part of Cards Against Humanity's success is their marketing and their outreach. They do a terrific job of both of those but they do a very ... Kurt: I've seen their marketing and it's amazing. They do one-off promo cards. I've got their House of Cards promo set that they did co-branding with Netflix. What kind of outreach do they do? Nick: They do a lot of ... They'll reply to people on Twitter. They'll follow along with people's activity. They'll pay attention to what people are talking about and they'll try and be a little bit proactive about it. As far as their site is concerned, their tone is very distinctive. It's ... Kurt: Absolutely, it irreverent. Nick: Yes, it's irreverent. It's a little bit standoffish, a little bit jerk but fun jerk. It's like [inaudible 00:05:09]. Kurt: Yeah. You love them for being mean to you. It's like Ed Debevic's.. Nick: [Crosstalk 00:05:10]. Yeah, it is like Ed Debevic's a little bit which is a diner in Chicago that ... Kurt: Right, [inaudible 00:05:15]. Nick: It's definitely one of those things where they own their voice and they know how to do it. If you go through the prompts on their Website, if you go to ... I believe it's store.cardsagainsthumanity.com. You can go there and buy stuff and they ask you what country you're from right away. We can go to a UX teardown of why that is but I'll give you the high level. They go to country [crosstalk 00:05:40] right away. Kurt: I'm already there. Nick: If you choose I live in the rest of the world like not US or Canada or UK or something like that, they'll be like, "Begone foul foreigner" or something like that." They'll just make fun of you. "Send us an e-mail for when Cards Against Humanity is available in your inferior country" or something like that. They're just totally blanked up. UI Copy was definitely an enormous component of it. It's part of why I'm getting to this because I wrote a fair amount of the UI copy that is still on there right now. Another thing that you'll see on the page if you go through it while you're listening to this podcast is you'll see a row of information at the top of it. You'll go and buy something, you'll hit Pay Now and you'll see country recipient, e-mail and shipping and what it says is ... It says USA. It'll try and geolocate you and then it'll say, "Not right." You can tap back to that and two things are happening there. You can edit your order as you're going and it reads the order back to you. One thing that you see in Shopify in particular or in e-commerce in general like Amazon or anything like that, it reads your order back to you before you hit Place Order. That's an extra click that you don't necessarily need because you could get this kind of inline feedback. There's no reason why you couldn't get inline feedback. I built the interaction model to fit that and people liked it. There were two things that people called out – the way that the feedback was being read back to you and the way that it was auto-correcting as it goes. If you type in your zip code, it autocorrects to your city and state and is usually accurate. That's pretty cool and it does have for both USPS and Canada Post. It requests little information from you, moves you through the process as fast as possible at the minimum of clicks. I wrote a book that called about interaction cycle, Cadence & Slang. One of the things I say is reduce the number of steps to complete a task. I tried to make this kind of exemplar of that principle by making it as efficient as humanly possible. The other thing that people talk about is when you actually go buy something, which I see you're tapping through that right now, Kurt, that I would ... Once you finish the transaction it says, "Now, go outside" and makes fun of you about the fact that you're on the Internet and it links ... Kurt: It shames you for your order. Nick: It already has your address and if you click "Now, go outside," it searches on Google Maps for parks near you. Kurt: [Crosstalk 00:08:07]. This is incredibly clever stuff. Nick: It's thinking like, okay, I'm on a computer and I'm refreshing it whenever an expansion comes out or I'm doing all these other things and it just wants ... It's like, "Oh, by the way, you're on the Internet. Now, you don't have to be on the Internet anymore. You gave us money. Just go away." That's most of the design decisions behind this. I feel like a lot of people just reinvent the wheel with e-commerce. They want to do something safe. One of the great things with Cards Against Humanity is they don't want safe. They don't care. They want to get the orders okay but if you're messing it up, it's not their fault. It's your fault for this particular organization. [Crosstalk 00:08:56]. Kurt: Yeah, like the whole ... the entire experience ... Like it's easy to use and it's great but at the same time the game ... It starts with a product. You've got this incredibly irreverent game and then that gets extended to the messaging and the copy and the positioning. Then amazingly where everyone else would have stopped, they moved it into the actual user interface. The interaction itself is irreverent. Nick: There are a couple of people at Cards that handle a goodly amount of the logistics in getting the cards printed and shipped and everything. To use a developer term, they are a full-stack operation. They deal with the printer. They deal with Amazon. They deal with the warehouse. They want to build a vertically-integrated system for [crosstalk 00:09:40]. Kurt: I was going to say that sounds like a vertical integration. Nick: They're a good enough business and are popular enough that they can get away with it. They could ... If I did that ... Kurt: It's a great product. People love it. It's a catch-22. People love it because of these irreverent decisions but at the same time, are they able to make those irreverent decisions because people love it? It's like where do you start with that? Nick: I would be putting words in their mouth but I suspect it's kind of a feedback loop. They make these decisions and they realize they're getting rewarded for it by having more business and so, they end up making more irreverent decisions in more irreverent ways. Kurt: Why, yes. You're right. It does. It rewards itself. Anyone could start trying this and if it doesn't work out, you shouldn't do it. Nick: Yeah. I run a large part of my design practice as A/B testing. You could build this and run half of your users through it and if your conversion rate drops, either try and tweak it or throw it away. That way you're not losing an insane amount of sales on your testing idea. You're vetting whether it works for you. I suspect at least certain conceits of these like auto-complete and providing this feedback. I don't see any personal reason why that couldn't exist in other e-commerce context. I really don't. Kurt: Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned split testing. Tell us briefly, what is split testing? Nick: It's essentially you have an idea and rather than fighting about it internally about whether it's a good idea, you let people decide and you're letting real customers decide. This can be anything. This can be a call to action button. This can be a headline. This can be a person on your homepage selling the thing. It can be whether a video autoplays or not. It can be any design decision you want and you have a control page which is your original page. You send that by 50% of your users and then the other goes to the other 50%, whatever you're varying and you're measuring success in sales, signups for your mailing lists, whatever have you. It can be anything that you want. Kurt: As long as it's a measurable goal. Nick: You have a goal, right. You can do this with multiple variations. Most of my A/B tests are in fact A-B-C-D-E tests where I'm vetting many different variations of something and many different permutations of something and testing it with real-life people. It reduces risk because you're running many variants. You're optimizing the page slowly and you're throwing away what doesn't work and learning what does work and where you want to be putting more of your efforts. Even a failure, which is a plurality of your tests are failures or inconclusive, you're still learning where you don't want to be putting your efforts, like you don't need to be fighting over that link, that sort of thing. I always try and frame it in a very positive way. Kurt: It's interesting. The way you brought it up is you don't have to fight about it internally. It's a great way to talk about it because in our design practice that's generally how I bring up the idea of split testing is when the client pushes back on something or they attribute some loss in sales to a change and I say, "Actually, we don't have to guess about it. We could split test it and know for certain." It's usually how I introduce that concept. Nick: Yes. Kurt: As soon as you say, "We can know for sure and we can know scientifically," then people become very interested in it. What's your favorite tool for split testing? Nick: I give all of my clients ... I have a monthly A/B testing tool or a service called Draft Revise where you pay me a certain amount every month and I run tests for you and write up reports and that's it. You never have to worry about the practice of doing this. I use something called Visual Website Optimizer. It shortens to VWO. You can go to vwo.com. For a few of my clients, I use something called Optimizely, if you go to optimizely.com. Both of those are terrific. They have very small differences at this point. It's like Canon and Nikon. They're just snipping at each other and it's making both of them much better. Kurt: I've used them. I've personally used VWO. I really liked it. I used the Google split testing tool. That thing's a nightmare. Nick: Yeah, it's changey. I would pay the money for V. If you have enough scale to get statistical validity out of the A/B tests which typically you need at least 3,000 or 4,000 [uniques 00:13:53 ] a month to be doing that for whatever goal you're measuring, usually it's more, you're probably making enough money that you can afford Visual Website Optimizer, no question or Optimizely. Don't do the free Google stuff. It just sucks. Kurt: The amount of time I wasted messing with that wasn't worth it. VWO is so much easier. Nick: Yeah, don't bother. Kurt: The support is really good. I'm not condemning Optimizely. I've literally just never used Optimizely. That's a good way to get into it for our listeners. If it's confusing or they don't want to deal with it, your service is great. I've seen the reports you run and I'm not even plugging it. It's just genuinely good stuff that you do. Nick: Thank you. It's one of those things where a lot of people don't know how to start and they don't know how to do it and I have two different offerings. One of them is a one-off like I give you a guide and I give you a lot of suggestions for what you can test and what you can change things to, things that I would change. You're getting a UX teardown and a write-up of how to put into practice but I find that a handful of those come back to me and they're like, "Can you just do this for us?" Kurt: Essentially, what you've said to them is like, "Here's a plan for immediate success based on my vast experience and you could do whatever you want with it." I imagine a lot of people are going to be, "All right, fine. You know what you're doing. You just take care of those for me." Nick: Yeah, and they're already used to paying me and I give them a discount on their first month. If they pay me $900 for Revise Express Report and then they sign up for a 2000-dollar plan for Draft Revise, you're paying only $1,100 for the first month which at that point you're not getting charged twice. You're able to hit the ground running. I signed up a Revise Express client recently for Draft Revise and it's been going well. We went from not having anything together to contract signed and A/B tests running on their site in three days because I already knew it. Kurt: That's good. Nick: I wrapped my head around it. It was great. Kurt: When you're wrapping your head around it, how do you approach optimizing a site? Nick: It depends on the site. Let's say it's like a typical SaaS business. I look at the things that I know changing them will yield a lot of fruit and that can be common elements to optimize like your headline or your call to action or testimonial quotes, stuff like that which is very optimizing 101 type stuff. Or I'd look at things that I see are clearly bad like if you have an e-mail list signup form and the button says Submit. Unless you are [crosstalk 00:16:39]. Kurt: I look for the stuff that just like, "This is painful. This goes against every best practice. Let's fix this first and get our baseline back to zero." Nick: Yeah. I break things into two categories. One of them is one-off design changes which are beyond the need for testing. Things like if you make your button Submit. Unless you're an S&M site, you have no business making your buttons Submit, all these other things. Then I also look at things and suggest "Let's test this because I'm not sure." The difference between those two is confidence. I'm still changing things. I'm changing elements on the page but I'm not fully confident that changing your headline to this one thing is going to speak to your customers effectively especially because I've been working with you for only three days if I'm doing these teardowns. It's very like intuition at that point. I will check everything within ... If you're a SaaS business, call your conversion funnel like your homepage to your pricing page to your signup page to your onboarding to all that and then you get converted from a trial into a paying customer eventually. There are a bunch of pages that you have to go through in that flow to actually figure that out. I try and vet all of those and figure out if I were building your site and figuring out your marketing page and trying to figure out a really good way to speak to people, would I do this? I bring in my experience working with dozens of SaaS businesses and e-commerce sites to bear on that and eight years of interaction design experience. That's often something that they can't get internally because I don't know any actual fulltime UX employees who've worked for as many individual clients as I have. Kurt: They couldn't possibly. Earlier you had mentioned to me the other day that you're working on something with Harper Reed. Nick: Yeah. I did it for six weeks. It was a one-off project with Harper Reed. For those who don't know, he elected the president at the beginning of ... starting at the beginning of last ... No, two years ago. It was 2012. Kurt: The way I view it is Harper Reed personally defeated Mitt Romney. Nick: His tech team certainly did. He built the team that ... It almost feels like that. If you read the teardowns of it, they're amazing but he has a startup now which is essentially a mobile e-commerce startup called Modest. It's at modest.com and first project that he did was a storefront for a toy and game manufacturer called [Choonimals 00:19:04], if you go to Choonimals Website. He's a friend of mine. He works and lives in Chicago. He works in Fulton Market. They had me come on and just be another pair of eyes on their UX. They already had a lot of interesting UX ideas there. I'm not going to take remote amount of credit for some of the most novel and fascinating parts of it but I agree with the conceit. A lot of the things were already coming together like scanning your credit card with the iPhone's camera is one of them and Uber does that. There's a JavaScript library called card.io that lets you do that where it just turns on your flashlight and lets you take a photo of your credit card and it scans your number in so you don't have to manually type it and reduce the error [inaudible 00:19:52]. He has a thing where you can buy stuff and it's basically buy with one touch and then if you ... You get a grace period where you could undo that. You can un-buy something and then ... Kurt: The easier you make something to buy, if people aren't used to that standard yet, I think there is a lot of that ... I wouldn't call it cognitive dissonance. Nick: I think you're just thrown off expectations-wise. There's a mismatch. Kurt: Yeah. Or it becomes too easy and suddenly, it's frightening. You have to have that grace period, that undo. Nick: I did not come up with these ideas to be clear. I helped refine them and offer my own ideas about them which is just like fit and finish. The idea of un-buying, you might tap something and it says Buy. It's very clear you're buying something but you don't even get an undo button in the app store if you buy something. You tap it on your iPhone. Kurt: Yeah. I bought a lot of silly things. I wish there was an undo button in the app store. Nick: I don't let myself check the app store while I'm drunk anymore because I just threw up and buy some 30-dollar application that's just ill-advised but this is like they're not going to ... It's a physical good usually. They're not going to ship it for another day at least or five hours if it's [overnighted 00:21:08] or something like that. At which point, you have a chance to take back that notion and edit your order. You barely get the chance to edit your order or merge orders on Amazon as it stands. Kurt: With Amazon, it's a scam. You could cancel an order while it's in progress but once you put cancel, it says, "We're going to try to cancel it" and it's like less than 50% of the time that it actually manages to cancel it. Nick: Right and if you're Prime, they probably already have it sent on a drone to you so you don't even know. It's one of those things where it just seems obvious that you should have an undo button when you're buying something. Kurt: Absolutely. You've got a lot of experience with this. Give me one tip for – obviously this is tough because it's general – one tip for an e-commerce store owner who's looking to grow the revenue. Nick: I'm going to drill down into this tip. You need to make it as easy for the person to buy the thing as possible and easy for them to back out of it and so, cutting down the number of steps. If you're asking for any extraneous information, if you are deliberately asking for both billing and shipping address, if you're splitting the person's name into three different fields, if you're not supporting auto-complete, those are all different forms of the same problem which is you're making the person enter more data than is necessary. Make the person input les data. Nobody likes to fill out a form. You don't want to feel like you're in a doctor's office buying a product. That's the one tip that I've got. Kurt: I guess it's pretty common with Shopify store owners. They want to do less work personally. They want like or go, "Can you make it ask them X, Y and Z thing?" and we'd say, "Sure, we could build out these product options for your products." Then when we do it, their conversion rate plummets and they're like, "Why did that happen?" Well, because you just made it really hard to buy from you. Nick: Yeah. Doing this auto-complete ... Going back to Cards Against Humanity, doing the auto-complete for your address and address validation and making it as fast as it is on that site is tremendously difficult. It is not easy programming to be putting in. Doing this focus is really hard but their sales bear out how they're doing. It justifies that decision. It almost says the amount of work that you put into the site and making it smarter, making the defaults easier and making it easier for the person, that's hard work but it directly connects to your conversion rate and if you're delighted about it ... I can't tell you how many positive twits happened when the first storefront came out that talked explicitly about the user experience and shared that out. It said, "Oh, you have to buy something." Who says "Oh, you have to buy something" about an e-commerce store? Kurt: You have to experience this. Nick: You have to experience getting sent to a park nearby you. That's very unexpected. Kurt: People are just ignoring the product itself. They'll just buy it for the sake of the purchasing experience. Nick: Right. Kurt: People don't think ... They would never think twice about someone making the interior of a retail store nice, making it easy to buy something there but as soon as it comes to e-commerce, then suddenly it's like the strange thing that no one wants to spend money on. Nick: It's funny because Apple's retail stores are beautiful and amazing and their UX is incredible. If you go in person, they swipe your card there in front of the computer and somebody walks the computer out to you and ... Kurt: Have you ever paid with cash in the Apple store? Nick: I have not. Kurt: It's same deal but the cash register is hidden inside one of the display tables. Just like the face of the table pops open. The cash box was in there the whole time. It's clearly on remote. They still use their iPhone and then the thing pops open. Nick: Right. Their UX is amazing but I bought an iPhone. I bought the new iPhone from the Apple store online the other day. Kurt: Did you go with the 6 or the 6-plus? Nick: I have 6. Kurt: You don't have monster gorilla paws is what you're telling me. Nick: No, I have normal human being hands and I don't need a Phablet. I have an iPad Mini. Anyway, I was going on it and I was on the Website, not the app just to be clear. I think the app is better but it was not fun. It sucked. It was really flunky and weird and it could be better. You're selling ... You're the biggest company in the world. You can fix that. Kurt: I noticed that they do one clever thing. You can choose multiple payment methods. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else. Nick: Amazon ... Kurt: If you were to max out your credit card and then finish up with a second credit card, they will let you do that. Nick: Or if you have one of those crappy gift cards that you get from the grocery store, like somebody gives you 100-dollar gift card and you have 18 cents left on it and you feel bad wasting that 18 cents, you could put that on the card. Kurt: You could do it. Nick: Right. That's edge [casey 00:25:58], feasible. Kurt: That's an argument I have with people is about edge cases where it's like, okay, we could fix this problem that one of 100 people have but what's that impact on the other 99 out of 100 people? I think Apple has walked themselves into that. Nick: Yeah. They can accommodate edge cases. I know that Amazon used to accommodate that sort of edge case and then they got rid of it for whatever reason. They probably saw that it wasn't diminishing returns or something but anyway. Kurt: That's a thing you could split test. Nick: Right, yeah. I'm sure Amazon does. Amazon A/B tests everything. I get bucketed into A/B tester of their pages all the time. I find it redesigns itself and I refresh it and it goes away [crosstalk 00:26:42]. Kurt: Or open an incognito window and it's a different site. Yeah, I've had that happen. Nick: Yeah. Kurt: If I wanted to learn more from you, the best way would be to do what? Nick: You should subscribe to my mailing list because it's funny. Kurt: I subscribe to it. I enjoy it, lots of good Chicago references in there. Nick: There are a lot of good Chicago ... Kurt: Like the hotdog story. Nick: There was a story ... It's a dog stand that's very popular here. It's closing this week. That is a very good way to get to know me as a person. If you want to know more about interaction design, I would go to cadence.cc which is my book, Cadence & Slang, and grab a copy. It is generally considered one of the more important texts on interaction design by people far more famous and important than me which is terrifying. Kurt: I have read it. It is genuinely good. Nick: Awesome, thank you. That's the best way to get to understand the kind of stuff that I'm talking about with e-commerce. It's applicable to any technological project but the ultimate goal is just to make things more efficient and pleasurable to use. Kurt: Fantastic. That's great. Thank you, Nick. Thank you for joining us and have a great day. Nick: Thank you so much. Take care.

Episode 72: The World Theatre Video Project   Teacher Nick Cusumano shares The World Theatre Video Project on the podcast, a excellent example of project-based learning perfect for the drama classroom. We also talk about Drama Teacher Advocacy and what teachers can do to become more comfortable using technology. Show Notes Ed Tech 4 Theatre (Nick Cusumano) The World Theatre Video Project Edmodo.com canva.com Lucid Press Google Docs The British Museum The National Theatre Google Open Gallery Google Cultural Institute Subscribe to The Theatrefolk Podcast Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP, the Theatrefolk podcast. I am Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas... I love Christmas songs and Christmas carols. I just think they're filled with a lot of joy, right? Although I cannot imagine having to work in a mall or in a store that starts playing carols at the end of November, it would be sort of like an assault I think if you had to listen to them day after day after day. It's like, “No please don't make me go to work, please don't make me and listen to 'Joy to the World' again!” Ahhhh. When you only have to listen to it at your leisure I think it's lovely. I think it's a lovely sentiment and I think it's a lovely song – I mean who doesn't want joy to the world? I want joy. I think joy is an awesome word. I love words that sort of sound like they are. Like joy. I think holiday is another word that's like that. It sounds like it is. Because who does not love a holiday? I love a holiday. Ok I'm all giddy now. I gotta go find me some eggnog and you're going to listen to my conversation with Teacher Nick Cusamano – we're talking about an awesome project for your drama class, that's right your drama class, that is happening right now. The World Theatre Video Project. Go Nick! Lindsay: Okay. Hello everybody! So, today on the podcast, we are talking about a specific project and the reason that I want to talk about this project is because it is something that every Drama class can do, it is something that every Drama club can do. Teachers, you know, grab your students and pull them together and get them involved with the World Theatre Video project at WorldTheatreVideo.com. I have teacher Nick Cusomano on the podcast. He is the, you created this, right? This is your deal. Nick: Yes, it's something that I was inspired by a tweet. One of my first Twitter followers was Karla O. She is the creator of the Drama Teachers Network. It's a WordPress blog. And, she was one of my first Twitter followers and we got to know each other on Twitter and then there, other friends of mine – Courtney, Elrond, and then Mohamed El-Ashiri – the four of us kind of, I think Karla posted out, “March 27's going to be World Theatre Day,” and I'm like, “We should do a video with two weeks,” and another two weeks wasn't enough time. Lindsay: Hey, you know what? When you've got two weeks, that's what you use, right? Nick: Yeah. So, I thought, “Well, let's record students doing All The World's A Stage from As You Like It.” Lindsay: Yeah. Nick: And so, we were able to get the footage together so we had two schools from the states along with another school, Mel Agar who teaches in Illinois, she sent in her video and then Courtney's students and then Mohamed's students and then Karla's students. And then, I edited that in together, all together as a video, and then we posted it. I world premiered it at the Google in Education Summit in Chicago on the 27th because that's where I was on that day and that was my Google demo slam and just had a great time connecting those students together. And, from there, right about that time I found out I was accepted to the Google Teacher Academy. Lindsay: Now, what is that exactly? Nick: About two to three times a year, it's kind of a competition.