Podcasts about evan you

We first reported on Evan You's company void0 back in October, 2024, and now Evan and co are making good on their promise to rework the entire JS toolchain from the ground up with the release of Rolldown-Vite. The new package is a drop-in replacement for the Vite bundler we all know and love, with benefits like production build time reductions of up to 16x and memory usage decreases of up to 100x. Replacement is easy and the perf gains are real. Try it today.Apple just held WWDC25 and announced big updates in Safari 26 beta. Favicons get replaced with SVG icons, any website can be a web app on iOS and iPadOS, there's a brand new HTML element for visionOS, CSS anchor positioning for popovers is supported as well as scroll-driven animations, and much more. Suffice it to say, Safari's got some slick new features under the hood. The jury is still very much out on the gooey, glassmorphic UI design that Apple also unveiled at WWDC, however.The Browser Company, who made the niche, but well liked Arc browser, has been working on a new AI-first browser called Dia, and this week it's available early access for Arc Members. At first glance Dia feels similar to other “agentic” browsers, giving users a chat input and the ability to chat about content in tabs or links, but it also shows off skills like connecting to calendars to schedule meetings or composing text that can be inserted into emails. We'll report back after we've had a chance to test Dia out for a bit.Chapter markers:1:00 - void0's Rolldown-Vite5:52 - Safari 26 beta21:26 - Dia, the new AI-browser from The Browser Company29:38 - Cursor raises $900 million Links:Paige - void0's Rolldown-ViteJack - Dia, the new AI-browser from The Browser CompanyTJ - Safari 26 betaLightning News:Cursor raises $900 millionWhat Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - Paradise TV seriesJack - Ballerina movie TJ - Apple Vision Pro on The Price is RightThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or talk to us on X, Bluesky, or YouTube.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fireFollow us on Bluesky @front-end-fire.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel @Front-EndFirePodcast

Vite ist aus der Toolchain vieler Entwickler:innen nicht mehr wegzudenken. Mittlerweile unterstützen fast alle großen JavaScript-Web-Frameworks den Bundler – und das, obwohl das Projekt erst gut vier Jahre alt ist. Vielleicht benutzt ihr Vite ja schon lange, ohne es zu merken?Wir haben mit Dominik Göpel einen echten Vite-Experten im Gespräch. Er ist als Maintainer Teil des Teams hinter Vite und spricht mit uns im Detail über das Projekt.Von Dominik lernen wir mehr über die Entstehungsgeschichte von Vite und wie es damals von Evan You als Build Tool für Vue.js entstand. Außerdem erfahren wir, wie agnostisch das Toolset mittlerweile ist. Es geht um die verschiedenen Zielgruppen, die Vite bedient – von den Macher:innen selbst über diverse Framework-Teams bis hin zu zahlreichen Plugin-Entwickler:innen und den Entwickler:innen, die Vite in ihrem Alltag einsetzen.Dominik berichtet uns von den architektonischen Entscheidungen, die für Vite getroffen wurden, um eine optimale Development Experience zu ermöglichen. In dieser Podcast-Folge erfahrt ihr, wie die Zusammenarbeit mit Frameworks wie Svelte, Nuxt oder Astro funktioniert und welche Tools das Team nutzt, um eine dauerhafte Kompatibilität zwischen dem Bundler und über 30 Frameworks sicherzustellen!Den in der Show erwähnten Trailer und die Dokumentation zu Vite werden von CultRepo (ehemals Honeypot) auf YouTube veröffentlicht.Schreibt uns! Schickt uns eure Themenwünsche und euer Feedback: podcast@programmier.barFolgt uns! Bleibt auf dem Laufenden über zukünftige Folgen und virtuelle Meetups und beteiligt euch an Community-Diskussionen. BlueskyInstagramLinkedInMeetupYouTubeMusik: Hanimo

Send a Message to the TeamThis episode, the team continues the fork of Marshal Sanjurjo surviving the opening of the Spanish Civil War...somehow without much mention of Sanjurjo himself...  Panel:  Dylan, Chris, Robert, and Evan    You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on….Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFSFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintimeTwitter: @AFITPodcastOur YouTube ChannelIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by:Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In TimeWebsite: www.aforkintimepodcast.comE-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.comTheme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the show

Send a Message to the TeamThis episode, the team continues to explore what happens in the late Roman Republic era if Crassus survives being captured in Parthia.  Panel:  Dylan, Chris, and Evan   You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on….Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFSFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintimeTwitter: @AFITPodcastOur YouTube ChannelIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by:Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In TimeWebsite: www.aforkintimepodcast.comE-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.comTheme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the show

Founder of VoidZero and founder of Vue and Vite Evan You joins us to talk about the evolution of JavaScript tooling, the success of Vite, and what's coming next with VitePlus — a unified toolchain aiming to simplify dev workflows. We also touch on Nitro, multi-runtime support, and where AI might (or might not) fit into the mix. Links https://evanyou.me https://x.com/youyuxi https://bsky.app/profile/evanyou.me https://github.com/yyx990803 We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Evan You.

Send a Message to the TeamThe Little Brother's Club: The Team looks at the results of the young United States deciding to invite a European prince to be the kind of the new nation.A New Pope: In the fourth episode of the American Monarchy arc, the US Congress invites the scion of the House of Savoy (Italian Royal Family) to the United States.  Panel:  Dylan, Robert, Chris, and Evan   You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on….Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFSFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintimeTwitter: @AFITPodcastOur YouTube ChannelIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by:Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In TimeWebsite: www.aforkintimepodcast.comE-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.comTheme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the show

Send a Message to the TeamSend a Message to the TeamThis episode, the team explores the survival of Crassus, that OTHER member of the First Triumvirate.  Panel:  Dylan, Chris, and Evan   You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on….Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFSFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintimeTwitter: @AFITPodcastOur YouTube ChannelIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by:Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In TimeWebsite: www.aforkintimepodcast.comE-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.comTheme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the showSupport the show

Send a Message to the TeamThe Little Brother's Club: The Team looks at the results of the young United States deciding to invite a European prince to be the kind of the new nation.  Constantine of the Klondike: In the third episode of the American Monarchy arc, the United States Congress offers Tsar Nicholas I a way to rid of an inconveniently liberal sibling.  Panel:  Dylan, Robert, Chris, and Evan    You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on…. Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFS Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintime Twitter: @AFITPodcast Our YouTube Channel If you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by: Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime ....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In Time Website: www.aforkintimepodcast.com E-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.com Theme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the show

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about becoming the best versions of ourselves. Do you feel like you're the best version of yourself? This does not mean perfection - we know there's no such thing! But, in general, do you feel like you're showing up as the person you want to be in the world? My guest this week is Evan Kuterbach, who left his full-time corporate career to co-found Canyon Pickleball. Here we talk about a wide range of topics, including: how to build connections when you're in a new place, how to manage self-doubt when you're navigating change and why it's so important to be the best version of yourself.About My GuestEvan Kuterbach is an entrepreneur and the co-founder of Canyon Pickleball, a lifestyle brand dedicated to bringing people together through sport, sustainability, and community. After over a decade in client-facing sales roles, Evan left the 9-5 world to build a new life for himself and his family. He first founded a successful copywriting agency, where he realized his knack for creating authentic, compelling messaging. Now, with Canyon Pickleball, he's merging his love for the outdoors with his drive to make a difference. Evan is all about real talk on entrepreneurship, building community, and following your own path.~Connect with Evan:You can follow Canyon Pickleball's journey at https://canyonpickleball.com/ or on all social media @canyonpickleball. If you enjoy learning more about Evan's personal journey of leaving the corporate world behind, building a successful copywriting agency, and sharing real talk on business, entrepreneurship, and chasing new passions, follow him on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/evankuterbach/.~Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge:https://www.kimmeninger.com/challengeLearn more about the Leading Humans discussion group:https://www.kimmeninger.com/leadinghumansgroupJoin the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals: https://forms.gle/Ts4Vg4Nx4HDnTVUC6Join the Facebook group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/leadinghumansSchedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges: https://bookme.name/ExecCareer/strategy-sessionConnect on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimmeninger/Website:https://kimmeninger.com

Send a Message to the TeamThe Little Brother's Club: The Team looks at the results of the young United States deciding to invite a European prince to be the kind of the new nation. Bonaparte Boogaloo: In the second episode of the American Monarchy arc, the United States Congress invites Napoleon's brother, Joseph Bonaparte, to be the second king of the new United States. Panel: Dylan, Robert, Chris, and Evan  You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on….Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFSFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintimeTwitter: @AFITPodcastOur YouTube ChannelIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by:Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In TimeWebsite: www.aforkintimepodcast.comE-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.comTheme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the show

The Silent Open Source Crisis: When Maintainers Walk Away, by Bekah Hawrot Weigel (https://youtu.be/eYkj5_79ixA) Everything You Need to Know About React 19, by Shruti Kapoor (https://youtu.be/UwtAmLLRLs0) Evolving Angular for the Long Run, by Jeremy Elbourn (https://youtu.be/DPlaYCEmzDA) Vite and the Future of JavaScript Tooling, by Evan You (https://youtu.be/u_6PMBDshS8) TypeScript and Your Codebase: They Deserve Each Other!, by Danny Thompson (https://youtu.be/ZxlzNTzIoqQ) TypeScript Generics: Practical Fun!, by Josh Goldberg (https://youtu.be/WfK4yVccoMk) You Don't Need JavaScript for That, by Kevin Powell (https://youtu.be/0rZywO6jdU4) Нас можно найти: 1. Telegram: https://t.me/proConf 2. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/proconf 3. SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/proconf 4. Itunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/by/podcast/podcast-proconf/id1455023466 5. Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/77BSWwGavfnMKGIg5TDnLz

Send a Message to the TeamThe Little Brother's Club: The Team looks at the results of the young United States deciding to invite a European prince to be the kind of the new nation. A Proposition Pertaining to Prussian Princes: In the first episode of the American Monarchy arc, the United States Congress invites Prince Henry of Prussia (Frederick the Great's younger brother) as the first king of the new country. Panel: Dylan, Chris, and Evan  You can follow and interact with A Fork In Time on…. Discord: https://discord.com/invite/xhZEmZMKFS Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aforkintime Twitter: @AFITPodcast Our YouTube Channel If you enjoy the podcast and want to support it financially, you can help by: Supporting us monthly via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/aforkintime ....or, make a one-time donation via Podfan to A Fork In Time Website: www.aforkintimepodcast.com E-Mail: aforkintimepodcast@gmail.com Theme Music: Conquer by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.comSupport the show

In this holiday repeat episode, Evan You, creator of Vue and Vite, discusses his new venture, void(0). He discusses the motivations behind founding void(0), the inefficiencies in JavaScript tooling, and the future of unified tooling stacks. Links https://evanyou.me https://x.com/youyuxi https://github.com/yyx990803 https://sg.linkedin.com/in/evanyou https://voidzero.dev We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Evan You.

This DejaVue episode comes as a little special! As a belated Christmas present, we got everything, literally everything that was discussed on this podcast about one big topic: Composition API vs. Options API.A lot of our previous guests had their own takes on the two APIs - and some might surprise you! So, why not tuning in and hear fifteen people talk about their opinions, insights and suggestions when it comes to using their preferred API in Vue - and why.Oh, and yes - there is even a little spoiler for next weeks episodeEnjoy the episode! Chapters(00:00) - Welcome to the DejaVue Special (00:37) - Evan You (18:04) - Natalia Tepluhina (26:09) - Tim Benniks (27:11) - Joe Tannenbaum (30:14) - CJ Reynolds (37:33) - Simone Cuomo (41:28) - Sumit Kumar (48:29) - Jakub Andrzejewski (49:54) - Rijk van Zanten (53:47) - Eduardo San Martin Morote (57:46) - Vue Toronto Panel (58:18) - Wrapping Up Links and ResourcesOrganizing Composition API Code VideoMichael's Inline Composable ArticleScreenshot CAPI OAPI ComparisonEvan's Migrated FilePiniaReferenced EpisodesDejaVue #E015 - Ten Years of Vue.js (with Evan You)DejaVue #E020 - Documentation and Migration: From Vue 2 to Vue 3 (with Natalia Tepluhina)DejaVue #E009 - Vue.js in Large Applications (with Tim Benniks)DejaVue #E029 - Inertia.js (with Joe Tannenbaum)DejaVue #E033 - Vue or React (with CJ Reynolds)DejaVue #E032 - Getting Started with Vue.js (with Simone Cuomo)DejaVue #E039 - Migrating a SaaS from Nuxt 2 to Nuxt 3 (with Sumit Kumar)DejaVue #E036 - Secure your Vue and Nuxt Applications (with Jakub Andrzejewski)DejaVue #E041 - The Quadruple Migration (with Rijk van Zanten) is coming up NEXT WEEKDejaVue #E030 - Pinia and Data Loaders (with Eduardo San Martin Morote)DejaVue #E037 - VueConf Toronto Panel (with Evan You, Daniel Roe, Sigrid Huemer and John Leider)Your HostsAlexander LichterBlueSkyTwitterYouTubeTwitchWebsiteMichael ThiessenTwitterYouTubeWebsiteLinks marked with * are affiliate links. We get a small commission when you register for the service through our link. This helps us to keep the podcast running. We only include affiliate links for services mentioned in the episode or that we use ourselves.

For the first time, the DejaVue Podcast goes "live"! Alex and Michael met up at VueConf Toronto and could do a whole DejaVue episode on stage. Of course, this is even more fun with guests, so they are joined by four speakers of the Conference.Evan You, Creator of Vue, Vite, Rolldown and Founder of VoidZero,Daniel Roe, Lead of the Nuxt Team,Sigrid Huemer, Software Engineer at Sentry, andJohn Leider, Creator of Vuetify.But that's not the end! The audience could ask questions to the whole panel, while the DejaVue hosts curated and selected the most interesting ones.Learn more about how all of the panelists started with Open Source, which were their biggest achievements, how Impostor Syndrome influenced them, what talks they'd be interested in as speakers and much moreEnjoy the Episode!Our PanelistsEvan YouVue.jsViteVoidZeroBlueskyDaniel RoeWebsiteYouTubeBlueskySigrid HuemerWebsiteBlueskyJohn LeiderWebsiteTwitterChapters(00:00) - Welcome to DejaVue Live (00:38) - Introducing our panelists (02:29) - How did you get into Open Source? (06:23) - What side projects are you working on? (11:40) - Do you feel the impostor syndrome? (18:53) - What were your biggest achievements so far? (22:42) - How to get started contributing to Open Source? (34:37) - What kind of talks would you be interested in? (38:55) - Quickfire questions - What is your favorite Vue feature? (39:32) - Options API or Composition API? (39:46) - ref or reactive? (40:03) - Tabs vs. Spaces? (40:34) - Favorite Editor? (40:52) - Conferences in person or remote? (41:06) - Git - Rebase or Merge? (41:28) - Podcast, Video or Blogposts? (41:48) - Your favorite way of writing CSS? (42:42) - What is your favorite Frontend Framework? Links and ResourcesFill out the State of Vue.js SurveyAnd also the State of JS Survey

Evan You, creator of Vue and Vite, discusses his new venture, voidI0). He discusses the motivations behind founding void(0), the inefficiencies in JavaScript tooling, and the future of unified tooling stacks. Links https://evanyou.me https://x.com/youyuxi https://github.com/yyx990803 https://sg.linkedin.com/in/evanyou https://voidzero.dev We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Evan You.

This week Evan You joins us again to talk about his new company, VoidZero, and the future of JavaScript tooling. Evan build Vite and ushered in a new era of JavaScript tooling, but thinks he can do better now by building up new rust based tooling. Rolldown is the first step in this as they aim to make build times a thing of the past. https://bsky.app/profile/evanyou.me https://www.accel.com/noteworthy/our-seed-investment-in-voidzero-evan-yous-bold-vision-for-javascript-tooling https://voidzero.dev/posts/announcing-voidzero-inc https://github.com/yyx990803 Episode sponsored By MUX (https://mux.com) Become a paid subscriber our patreon, spotify, or apple podcasts for the full episode. https://www.patreon.com/devtoolsfm https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/devtoolsfm/subscribe https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devtools-fm/id1566647758 https://www.youtube.com/@devtoolsfm/membership

Alex is accompanied by the wonderful CJ Reynolds in this episode of DejaVue. The Senior Creator at Syntax.fm brings not only Vue experience but also a history of Angular JS and React, as well as various other technologies.The two content creators talk about how CJ became a senior creator at the well-known Syntax.fm podcast and how it is different from Streaming on Twitch and his previous content creation processes. Further, CJ gives insights on how the Denver Vue meetup evolved (now the DenverScript meetup) and shares some hopes when it comes to the meetup scene.Alex and CJ then discuss more technical topics - for example why CJ never fully switched over to Vue but still writes it a lot. The discussion eventually goes into comparisons between Vue and React, highlighting what Vue does "better" than React and how the Vue ecosystem shapes the web development work.Enjoy the episode!Our GuestCJ ReynoldsOwn WebsiteSyntax WebsiteTwitchYouTube (Coding Carden)YouTube (Syntax.fm)BlueSkyTwitterChapters(00:00) - Welcome to DejaVue (00:47) - How CJ joined the podcast (01:38) - How did you become the Senior Creator at Syntax.fm do? (06:00) - Differences to previous gigs and streaming (12:17) - From starting with web development to Vue.js (15:54) - Running the Vue Denver meetup (19:25) - Is the meetup scene growing again? (21:13) - Why didn't you switch fully to React? (23:49) - What Vue does "better" than React (27:01) - Two-way data binding (31:35) - How opinionated is Vue (32:58) - Vue without a build step (35:01) - Does Vue "seem" too magical? (36:07) - "Needing" a meta framework? (38:50) - Nuxt and the UnJS packages (41:01) - Frameworks converging (41:55) - Vue did Signals "first" (42:58) - Is Vue bad at marketing? (44:40) - Vue Job market (45:40) - Vue and Innovation (46:59) - Vue being left out of the conversation (50:52) - What stops from switching to Vue? (53:52) - The change to Vue 3 and the Composition API (01:02:38) - VueUse as a good example (01:03:26) - Composition API without script setup (01:05:56) - Where people can follow CJ (01:06:34) - Wrapping up Links and ResourcesGet 15% OFF for your Vue Toronto ticket with code DEJAVUE *Syntax PodcastDenverScriptimmerImmutable.jspetite-vueEpisode 16 - The Future of Vue.js (with Evan You)vinxiEpisode 30 - Pinia and Data Loaders (with Eduardo San Martin Morote)Vue Data LoadersNitroInterview with Evan You about VoidZeroSyntax Video Series -  React vs VueHeadless UIFormKitOrganizing Code when using the Composition APIYour HostAlexander LichterBlueSkyTwitterYouTubeTwitchWebsite---Links marked with * are affiliate links. We get a small commission when you register for the service through our link. This helps us to keep the podcast running. We only include affiliate links for services mentioned in the episode or that we use ourselves.

In this panel episode, join our producer Emily and hosts Josh and Paul as they discuss the debate around rewriting JavaScript tools in faster languages, the exciting release of Svelte 5, and the newly introduced Void Zero toolchain. Links Paul Mikulskis https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-mikulskis-37a50b4a https://www.youtube.com/@SuperSynthguy?app=desktop Josh Goldberg https://www.joshuakgoldberg.com https://twitter.com/JoshuaKGoldberg https://www.youtube.com/@JoshuaKGoldberg https://fosstodon.org/@JoshuaKGoldberg https://bsky.app/profile/joshuakgoldberg.com https://www.twitch.tv/JoshuaKGoldberg https://github.com/JoshuaKGoldberg We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr)

As a special DejaVue episode - Alex met up with with the creator of Vue, Vite and founder of VoidZero Evan You himself and discuss his new company and the vision of a unified toolchain.Starting with how the idea of VoidZero came up and finding the right investors went, further discussion revolve around the monetization and why VC money was the way to go instead of other models, such as the sponsorship model of Vue, OpenCore or similar.Also, we cover a lot of community questions, such as whether Next.js will support Vite in the future, what lessons Evan and team learned from other projects like Rome and when we see the first Vite version with Rolldown.Enjoy the episode!Chapters(00:00) - Welcome to DejaVue (00:26) - What is VoidZero? (01:09) - When did you have the idea for VoidZero? (05:16) - Limits of Vue's funding model (07:10) - When did you found VoidZero? (09:20) - The name VoidZero (11:25) - What is open source will stay open source! (11:54) - Who is on the VoidZero team? (14:56) - VC Funding for VoidZero (18:12) - Picking the right investors (19:34) - The solved Zero to One Problem (21:05) - NPM download as metric (22:02) - Other company models for VoidZero (28:18) - Lessons Learned from other "unified JS toolchain projects" (33:21) - Feedback from framework authors (34:28) - VoidZero and runtime-agnosticism (37:35) - Projects close to what VoidZero should become? (38:14) - Upcoming projects which will be integral for VoidZero (39:50) - The Monetization of VoidZero (41:55) - Monetizing a toolchain (43:15) - Are planned services relevant for hobby devs? (44:12) - How do you plan to divide the funds? (44:50) - Vue as first class citizen (48:48) - Impact of VoidZero on time for Vue and Vite (55:37) - Relationship between VoidZero and UnJS (56:55) - .config proposal (57:39) - Migration path from tools like SWC or esbuild (59:27) - When Next.js will support Vite? (01:01:34) - oxc-lint and stylistic rules (01:02:42) - Collaboration with the TypeScript team? (01:03:04) - TypeScript Checking in VoidZero? (01:03:32) - Will the formatter support Prettier? (01:04:05) - License Change to Vite (01:05:14) - When can we test Rolldown + Vite? (01:06:30) - Hiring at VoidZero (01:08:20) - Wrapping up Links and ResourcesAnnouncement BlogpostViteConf KeynoteVoidZero TeamVite License Change PRRolldown Vite Fork

Freut euch auf unser nächstes Meetup: Am 28. November öffnet die programmier.bar wieder ihre Tore und lädt alle Interessierten ein, gleich zwei Talks zum Thema „Data in Gaming“ zu genießen.In dieser News-Folge kann Dave endlich erzählen, warum ihn ausgerechnet ein kleiner, aber smarter Wecker schon seit Wochen beschäftigt. Außerdem gibt es von Apple ein neues, kleines iPad.Leider gibt es auch weniger erfreuliche Nachrichten, denn sowohl bei Firefox als auch im Arc Browser haben sich Sicherheitsprobleme mit einem CVS von 9.8 eingeschlichen. Worum es sich dabei handelt und wie es dazu kommen konnte, erfahrt ihr bei uns im Detail.Außerdem berichten wir von dem neusten Drama um Matt Mullenweg, Automattic und die WordPress-Community und diskutieren, was für ein Schaden da gerade für WordPress und die gesamte Open-Source-Community angerichtet wird.Aber es gibt auch gute Neuigkeiten. Im Vue/Vite-Ökosystem hat Evan You zuletzt $4.6 Millionen eingesammelt, um mit void(0) eine Firma zu gründen, die das Vite Ökosystem und die dazugehörige Toolchain auf vollständig neue, moderne Beine stellen soll. Wie das genau ablaufen soll, hört ihr natürlich im Podcast.Wir bitten die etwas ungewohnte Tonqualität zu entschuldigen.Schreibt uns! Schickt uns eure Themenwünsche und euer Feedback: podcast@programmier.barFolgt uns! Bleibt auf dem Laufenden über zukünftige Folgen und virtuelle Meetups und beteiligt euch an Community-Diskussionen. TwitterInstagramFacebookMeetupYouTube

Jerod & KBall discuss a trio of goings on in/around the web dev world: Evan You's new startup, Matt Mullenweg's WordPress mess & Ryan Carniato's WebComponents debate.

Jerod & KBall discuss a trio of goings on in/around the web dev world: Evan You's new startup, Matt Mullenweg's WordPress mess & Ryan Carniato's WebComponents debate.

A bias against hyperlinking has developed on platforms, GitHub engineering continues to evolve Issues, Evan You announces VoidZero, some companies are only pretend hiring & Klaas van Schelven asks: does it scale (down)?

A bias against hyperlinking has developed on platforms, GitHub engineering continues to evolve Issues, Evan You announces VoidZero, some companies are only pretend hiring & Klaas van Schelven asks: does it scale (down)?

A bias against hyperlinking has developed on platforms, GitHub engineering continues to evolve Issues, Evan You announces VoidZero, some companies are only pretend hiring & Klaas van Schelven asks: does it scale (down)?

Andrew Lisowski is the cohost of devtools.fm. In this episode we talk about why Andrew started devtools.fm and what he's learned along the way. Life as an open source maintainer.How the JavaScript ecosystem is different to other developer ecosystems.The importance of dogfooding.The power of DHH.Why obsessing over one problem eventually leads to great resultsShould DevTools start podcasts and how?Links:devtools.fm - https://www.devtools.fm/Andrew's Twitter - https://x.com/HipsterSmoothiedevtools.fm Twitter - https://x.com/DevtoolsFMInterview with DHH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEZNbM4MUdoInterview with Evan You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycuYlzuBqcAInterview with Richard Harris https://www.devtools.fm/episode/15

After the first part, Michael and Alex continue their conversation with the one and only Evan You, covering the future of the modern JavaScript Framework.Starting straight with possible plans for Vue 4 to address common pain points and no ETA for the next major, exciting improvements like native CSS Scoping or removing the need for declaring props are discussed (though nothing is set on stone)!Next, Vue 3.5 and it's current alpha version are on the list. We all look forward to the amazing features in the next minor version, including Lazy Hydration, perf improvements, easier types and also new composables like useTemplateRef.Eventually, the State of Suspense, Vapor Mode, Volar, and Mobile App Development with Vue are addressed as well.Enjoy the episode!Chapters(00:00) - Welcome to DejaVue! (01:06) - Do you have any plans for Vue 4? (02:47) - Ref Unwrapping in objects (05:22) - Native CSS Scoping, Signals and Browser range (07:12) - Defaulting to script setup and TypeScript (11:12) - No prop declaring necessary anymore (13:43) - Nothing set in stone for Vue 4 (14:50) - Vue 3.5 improvements (15:50) - Internal type improvements (16:33) - Reactive Props Destructure RFC (19:31) - useId and useTemplateRef (21:00) - Do we still need custom directives? (22:06) - Lazy Hydration (22:57) - Allowing Hydration mismatches on purpose (25:10) - Custom Lazy Hydration Triggers (26:18) - Vue 3.5 Alpha (26:56) - State of Suspense (30:17) - Vapor Mode (33:44) - Performance of Vapor (35:31) - Volar and the Vue VS Code Extension (39:09) - Negativity towards Volar (40:18) - Mobile App Development with Vue (42:51) - What content would help the Vue community? (51:07) - Wrapping up! Links and Resources10% discount for the vue.js de Conf in Bonn, Germany with code DEJAVUENuxt UI Pro* - Get 20% off with code LICHTER until July 14thReactive Props Destructure RFCVolarVue Language ToolsNuxtJS Framework BenchmarkEcosystem CI (Vue)NativeScriptTailwindCSSKevin Deng (sxzz)Anthony FuDaniel RoeLinks marked with * are affiliate links. We get a small commission when you register for the service through our link. This helps us to keep the podcast running. We only include affiliate links for services mentioned in the episode or that we use ourselves.

This DejaVue episode is special - Alex and Michael meet up with the creator of Vue, Vite and Rolldown, Evan You himself and talk about the last ten years of Vue!Starting with how Vue.js started as a side project while Evan still worked at Google, Evan shares the story of how Vue.js came to be and how it evolved over the years. Interesting insights, such as why the Composition API was created and which initial problems should be solved with it, are shared in this episode. And to all that, questions from the Q&A were answered as well, touching topics like petite-vue, if and how the Options API will persist and how opinionated Vue.js is.After an hour of content and insights, the episode ends with a tiny cliffhanger, as Part Two of the conversation covering the future of Vue, possible Vue 4 features, Vapor mode, Vue 3.5 and more, will be released next week!Enjoy the episode!Chapters(00:00) - Welcome to DejaVue! (01:09) - How did Vue.js start out? (04:48) - The Initial Version of Vue.js (13:42) - Do new Vue users start without a build step? (15:02) - Vue's expansion to different use cases (18:14) - Is Petite Vue dead? (21:03) - Why Vue 2? (29:58) - How opinionated is Vue? (35:15) - The Transition from Vue 2 to Vue 3 (36:32) - How did the idea for the Composition API came up? (38:24) - Options API vs Composition API (44:54) - Will the Options API stick around? (46:10) - Overhead of keeping APIs around (51:13) - Considering to disable Options API via a flag? (53:05) - The former class-based API proposal (58:03) - Classes with Vue's reactivity concept (59:38) - Whaat, there is a Part 2? Links and ResourcesMeteor.jsKnockoutAngularJSSolidRuby on RailsLaravelHTMXSvelteNuxtAlpineJSLaravel LivewireInertiaJohn ResigReactEmberBabelAxiosJustin SchroederTC39 Decorators proposalvue-facing-decorator

This is a rapid fire episode of news topics today because (as always) there's plenty going on in the front-end development world.Evan You, the creator of the popular Vue.js framework and Vite build tool, is back with a new static site generator named VitePress. VitePress allows users to build fast, content-centric websites with Markdown, a fully customizable theme, and Vue-enhancements for greater interactivity, and it will generate static HTML pages that can be deployed anywhere.There's also two new component library frameworks taking a page from the shadcn/ui open source component library: JollyUI and Ark UI. JollyUI provides shadcn/ui compatible, react aria components that you can copy and paste into your apps. They're accessible, customizable, open source, and look darn good at first glance. Ark UI takes a slightly different approach billing itself as a headless library for building reusable, scalable design systems that work for a wide range of JS frameworks.And the Angular team is back at it again with the twice a year release of a new major version of Angular. We're up to v18 now, and Angular is encouraging users to move away from zone.js for change detection. It's been a staple of Angular for years, but the library came with a number of developer experience and performance downsides and so the Angular team's been hard at work building new APIs that don't rely on zone.js and they're ready for devs to try them out.In bonus news, Google now offers its Gemini AI in Chrome DevTools to help developers better understand the errors and warnings that pop up in the console, Kyle Shevlin shares a very well written design system retrospective based off his own experiences building cross platform design systems for clients and dev teams, and IBM watsonx brings its own Code Assistant AI tool to the table. A unique twist with Code Assistant is that it offers not only code generation, but also code modernization (i.e. refactoring legacy code or translating code from one language to another).News:Paige - VitePress SSG frameworkJack - Ark UI 3.0 and JollyUI react aria compatible componentsTJ - Angular 18 is now availableBonus news:Google Gemini AI in Chrome DevToolsDesign System Retrospective article by Kyle ShevlinIBM watsonx Code AssistantWhat Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - BUBM double layer cable travel bagJack - Creo Chocolate tourTJ - Sharp Tech podcastThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or Tweet us on X @front_end_fire.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fire

Welcome to the eighth episode of DejaVue! In this episode, Alex and (past) Michael recap the highlights of Vue.js Amsterdam, one of the largest Vue.js conference. They discuss the amazing talks, including Evan You's keynote on the 10-year journey of Vue, exciting announcements like NuxtHub, and memorable moments from the conference. They also share their experiences of connecting with the community, live coding challenges, and the unique vibe of this must-attend event.From FOMO over to talk highlights and next upcoming conferences, all is packed in the 28-minutes.Enjoy the episode!Chapters(00:00) - Introduction (00:48) - Vue.js Amsterdam FOMO (02:50) - Giving a talk at a huge conference (06:59) - Highlights from 2024 (08:56) - Evan's talk (12:56) - Further Highlights of Day One (15:48) - Pooya's talk (17:24) - Speed review (19:15) - Networking at conferences (22:40) - DevWorld + Front end panel (25:55) - Upcoming conferences Links and ResourcesVue.js Amsterdam Talk ReplaysAlex's Petite Vue TalkVapor Mode RepositoryVapor Mode PlaygroundPartykitDevWorld ConferenceFrontend PanelVueConf Torontovue.js DE Conf

Welcome to the fourth episode of DejaVue! From a Nuxt topic last week, Michael and Alex jump into a plain Vue.js topic again, or would you say... teleport?Yes, correct! The Teleports feature from Vue 3 will be explored - from its use cases to the native HTML dialog tag. The two hosts also cover how Teleports were created, even back in Vue 2, and talk about a Nuxt implementation too.Learn more about Teleports in this episode of DejaVue! Post-podcast note: The Popover API is now available in all major browsers! Chapters(00:00) - Intro (00:35) - What are Teleports? (01:35) - The typical Teleport use case (03:23) - Other use cases for Teleports (1) (06:45) - Async Components and Suspense (1) (07:48) - Pitfalls with Teleports (09:15) - The native dialog components (12:14) - Building an own modal / dialog (13:25) - How you did it before Teleports (14:33) - What Teleports don't solve (15:13) - Other use cases for Teleports (2) (16:46) - Teleport targets / Where to teleport (17:49) - Vue 2 Teleports (19:04) - Teleports and SSR (25:13) - Creating Reproductions and Open Source (29:28) - Outro Links and ResourcesTeleports Vue.js DocsHeadless UIThe Dialog ElementPopovers (Now available)Portal Vue package (needed in Vue 2)Evan You on SSR Teleports#teleports in NuxtSuspense + Teleports Issue

From the early days of exploring creative possibilities on a 486 computer in his childhood to developing one of today's most popular web frameworks, Evan You's journey is a tale of passion and innovation.    Evan started Vue.js while working at Google, just wanting to scratch his own itch for a lightweight JavaScript framework. But soon Vue started to gain a huge following.  Eventually Evan then faced a tough dilemma - should he take a leap of faith and devote himself fully to his fledgling open source project? Hear Evan's firsthand story of that key career transition. How the explosive user feedback at Vue conferences gave him confidence. But also the challenges he faced by putting himself directly in the line of fire from unhappy users. It's an inspiring journey - from a developer just trying to solve his own problems to the leader of one of today's most popular web frameworks. Hear the very human story behind Vue.js. Episode Page Support The Show Subscribe To The Podcast Join The Newsletter  

Today's conversation revolves around the importance and challenges of goal setting within organizations. It highlights how identifying and articulating real problems can be transformative, turning abstract desires for growth into concrete plans for improvement. Host Victoria Guido and special guest Evan Hammer discuss the nuances of leadership and organizational self-awareness, emphasizing the need for honesty and a growth mindset when addressing weaknesses. They touch on Evan's role as an OKR Coach in fostering alignment, focus, and excitement around goals, particularly in small to mid-sized companies. Evan shares his enthusiasm for goal setting and believes his passion can inspire others. He points out the positive outcomes when employees engage with goals that address problems they care about. Victoria and Evan agree that success is not solely measured by hitting OKRs but also by engagement and alignment within the team. They discuss the ideal organizations for Evan's work, which include small to medium-sized companies seeking to improve focus and alignment, as well as start-up teams needing more straightforward goal statements and go-to-market strategies. Evan also recounts his experience as a Techstars mentor, noting that a common issue across companies is the lack of clear goals, and he emphasizes the power of focus as a lever for growth. Follow Evan Hammer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhammer/) or X (https://twitter.com/evanhammer). Visit his website at evanhammer.com (https://evanhammer.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Evan Hammer, OKR and personal goals coach. Evan, thank you for joining us. EVAN: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Me too. And I wanted to ask you first, before we dive into business, tell me a personal goal that you've achieved recently that you're most proud of. EVAN: I guess a couple of months ago, I did a 100-mile loop of Mount Rainier. So, it was a 10-day backpacking trip. My younger brother, I went with him, and it's the kind of thing he does more regularly. Yeah, it was something I was kind of excited to do but really unsure of, and worked super hard between the gear and the training and just, like, the mindset. But it was also just awesome being out in the woods for ten days. VICTORIA: I also love being out in the woods for long periods of time. I guess, like, how long did your brother plan this trip for? And how long were you involved before you decided to go? EVAN: You know, it was something he was planning to do since the spring. He won a lottery to be able to do it. And I was going back and forth for a few months. And I think it was just maybe in the end of June where I was like, okay, I'm doing this. I need to put together a gear list, figure out a training plan. I live in Fort Greene in Brooklyn. And it was a lot of, like, waking up early and going up and down the steps in Fort Greene Park, which is, like, you know, 6, 10 flights of steps, something like that outdoors -- VICTORIA: [laughs] EVAN: With a heavy backpack on for two to three hours, like on weekends. VICTORIA: Oooh. Wow. EVAN: Yeah, it was one of those things I was like, you know, you don't know when you do something like this how it's going to go until you're there doing it or how your body is going to respond. So, it was a little bit of, like, trying to train as much as possible but also being aware that I just have to deal with whatever will happen on the trip. VICTORIA: I love that, at first, it sounds sort of, like, fun. Like, "Oh, do you want to go on this trip with me?" And you're like, "Yeah, okay." And then you look at the training plan, and it's like, "We'll wake up at 6:00 a.m. every day and walk up and down ten flights of stairs [laughs] with a heavy backpack on," you know, like, "Oh okay, [laughs] a lot of prep work to have this trip." [laughs] EVAN: It's fun in that you're doing something amazing, and it's beautiful. And it was just one of the more beautiful places I've ever been. It was really interesting and meaningful to me to kind of be detached from everything that I normally do and just focus on being in the woods and hiking these mountains. But yeah, you don't know how it's going to go. So, it's like you're putting yourself in an extreme physical situation. I think that's anxiety-inducing, and it feels good and is healthy and protective to train for it. VICTORIA: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I totally relate to that. I'm a rock climber and hiker myself. And sometimes I spend all this time, you know, on gym memberships, climbing in the gym, running up and down hills. And then, I get all the way out to rock, and I'm about to start my climb, and I'm like, why am I doing this? [laughs] This is a lot of work to get to this point. But then it is all fun, and it's super worth it. And I always feel restored whenever I come back from being a long time in nature. It's really great. I think maybe to get towards, like, a metrics conversation that we talk about a lot in climbing is the type of fun something is. So, there's three types of fun levels. Have you heard this framework before, Evan? EVAN: I have not. VICTORIA: Okay, so there's three levels of fun. Level one fun is, like, you're having fun while you're doing it. We're, like, laughing and enjoying recording a podcast together. Like, oh my God, it's so much fun, super easy, not stressful. Maybe it was a little stressful for you, I don't know. [chuckles] It's a little stressful for me. Level two fun is it's a little difficult while you're doing it, but you're still looking back on it and having fun, but you're never really in any kind of intense danger, right? Like, you're going on a backpacking trip. It's relatively within your health expectations, and the trail is walkable. You're not, like, going to fumble and fall down a cliff. It's level-two fun. So, you're mostly enjoying it. Like, it's kind of difficult, and there's some effort involved, but it's still fun. Level three fun is when it's very dangerous, and you're really scared the whole time [laughs], and, like, you maybe, like, could have died. But looking back on it, it's fun. So, how would you rate your Mount Rainier trip? EVAN: It's funny because we actually...we didn't come up with the levels, but we spoke about how when you're hiking, often, in your head, you're just trying to figure out how much longer you have to hike as if the whole point was not to be hiking. And then you finish hiking for the day, and you're like, "Oh, that was so great. I'm so looking forward to waking up tomorrow and hiking some more." VICTORIA: Yeah [chuckles], exactly. EVAN: That fits the level two fun pretty explicitly. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, it's a very, you know, I've found it to be pretty useful. And, you know, as I get older, I tend to try to avoid level three fun more often [laughs]. Like, I don't really need to be frightened [laughs]. I have enough stress in my life. I don't need to also endanger myself too aggressively. But, you know, everyone has their own risk level as well, right? Like, someone else might think the type of climbing and hiking that I'm doing is level three fun, but, for me, it's more...and, like, there's other things like skateboarding and riding a bike where, for me, is level three. I'm scared and [laughs] -- EVAN: Right. And I think you also frame level three as, like, sort of physical safety. But, you know, people have different risk tolerances and classifications across the board. So, like, for me, I try to stay away from things that I would consider physically dangerous. But I'm very comfortable, like, taking financial or social risk, where I know other people have an inverted kind of spectrum where, like, social risk is, like [laughs], you know, is a terror to them when physical risk doesn't seem that scary to them, you know, so... VICTORIA: That's so interesting. And especially for me, I do a lot of networking. And I'm, of course, been really active in San Diego Startup Week this week. We're recording this in October. So, for some people, going to an event where there's going to be hundreds of people, you maybe have met some of them before, but you really don't have a buddy that you are coming to this event with. You're on your own. You're going to have to walk up to people, start conversations, figure out who is who, and, like, find your people. That's terrifying for a lot of people. And they're like, "Absolutely not." [laughs] EVAN: Well, it's interesting how, like, level one and level three can be inverted. I went to a conference last fall by myself, and I actually had some voice issues. So, I couldn't talk for a little bit before this, so it was like...or even that well, during, you know, it was kind of an environment that I think a lot of people might be feeling like, oh, that's level three social experience. And I just remember how much fun I had there. Like, for me, it was totally a level one thing. But, you know, there's definitely moments on this hike where I was like, oh, this is level three. This feels physically scary, even though most of the time it wasn't. VICTORIA: Yeah, no, I think it's helpful. So, maybe that helps us segue a little bit into telling me more about what you do and how you came to do what you do. What's your background? EVAN: What do I do? I'll give you, like, a list of the things that I do. I will say I help people focus and maybe communicate better. You know, the list is, like, I am an OKR coach, right? That's objectives and key results, coaching business leaders on how to set goals and get everybody aligned towards the same goals. I do personal goals coaching, and that's, like, helping individual people set goals that are meaningful to them and live more intentionally. I'm a Techstars mentor, where I mentor companies. And I also do, like, a fractional head of product role. And it's a little all over the place. I mean, it's something that, obviously, a lot of that is, like, business coaching but really focused around focus and how you can use goal setting to accelerate growth for a business or an organization or for yourself personally. VICTORIA: How did it get started? What led you to be the coach that you are today? EVAN: Yeah, you know, I get asked this question. And I feel like there's a story about how I kind of tested goal setting. I was a founder. I went to Techstars in, like, 2013. And I was running the company. So, I had to, like, mess around with goal setting and then ended up being at Codecademy and Vimeo. They were doing OKRs. And there were certain things I liked and certain things I didn't. And there was, like, this progression. But I think the truth is that I just really like systems and organizing things, and I think I've always been like that. And OKRs are a way of taking something that's really messy, which is, like, a group of people running together in some direction and saying, "Oh, well, what if we come up with, like, some agreed plan here, and some rules, and some guidance? And we can split this out between what, like, the company and the organization is doing versus what individual people are doing or what the department's doing." I think I just find that process comforting. It's just, like, gleeful for me to be working with people on how they're going to focus and organize themselves, and then also how they're going to communicate that focus to each other, which I think is, like, a key part of people staying on the same page. VICTORIA: I love that. And I really want to dig into some examples of OKRs and maybe even get some free OKR coaching for myself on this episode. But, you know, but with your background, I wanted to start with looking at the founder experience versus being someone in a larger organization. How do you bring in that context of where you are in your journey into how you think about setting goals for an individual? EVAN: I think it's a hard question for me because my viewpoint on how goal setting and strategy and achievement in organizations has changed over this whole time, right? So, I was a founder, then at these larger organizations. I think I've tried to synthesize some, like, through line rather than difference between them. So, let me start there. I think when you look at a founder, or a founding team, or a larger organization, the key thing to figure out is where you're going and coming up with really clear goals. And then, depending on the size of the organization, there's different tactics you can use, right? So, if you're a founder, it might be just sitting down with your co-founders once a week, having a clear Northstar metric, and having a clear goal, and then everybody's running, and that works. Zoom to a 100-person company, which is, like, I probably focus on, like, 20 to 100-person companies. And now you have a lot of confusion between departments because you have people who are working on very different parts of the business. So, I think OKRs, at that point, are really great because it is this, like...and we will talk more about OKRs. But it's this cascading goal-setting technique where you have company goals that everybody understands and agrees to, and then each department is carving out how they're going to support that, which is, like, less necessary for a small company. But I still think the key thing is to know what you want, what your biggest problem is in getting there, and what your approach is going to be in overcoming that problem, which is, you know, is, like, I guess, strategy 101. VICTORIA: I like that. And it's funny; it makes me think of a tarot card layout. That's a situation I'll come and approach. Anyways, I wanted to get, like, down to the basics. I think we said OKRs earlier, but what is an OKR, if you can define that? EVAN: Yeah, so objectives and key results. An objective is any goal you have, so that can be launch a feature, revamp your sales process, or achieve some sort of milestone or some capability, right? So, often, that's, like, build a new department, or come up not just with a specific feature but a new offering, like launch a whole product line. Anything that's important to you can be a goal. It should be clear and inspiring. And that's the objective piece. Key results answer the question: how will you know if you're successful in reaching that goal? That might be if you're building a new department, a certain number of hires. If you're launching a feature or want to have a new offering, that might be some KPI for the product team, like, you know, onboarding rates or retention rates. VICTORIA: Yeah, and let's maybe even go into a real example: myself, I'm a managing director here at thoughtbot. People who aren't familiar with thoughtbot...I'm sure everyone listening has [laughs] familiarity with what we do as a product and business consultancy. And our team at Mission Control, the goal was to innovate on our approach to how we were deploying and managing software. So, over 20 years, the trends and modernization of infrastructure was something we wanted to be a part of, and we wanted to enable and accelerate not just our own development teams but our clients' teams in deploying software securely and efficiently and meeting everything that we need to do. Like, it's an incredibly complex environment. And there's lots of choices to make. So, that's, like, the big vision of what we're trying to do at thoughtbot. It's a new service. It's touching not only our internal processes but also, like, the growth of our business overall. So, what I've done as a managing director I talk with my team. I work with the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. He's my acting director [chuckles] on identifying what is our overall approach? What's our strategy? So, one of the things we do at thoughtbot, one of our strategies, is to put content out there. So, we want to build stuff that works for us, and we want to share and talk about it. And we believe that by putting good stuff out there, good stuff will come back to us [laughs]. So, really just increasing the amount of blog posts, increasing the amount of open-source contributions and [inaudible 13:03] people we talk to and hear about what their problems are. We think that that will be an indicator for us of whether or not we're being successful in growing this business. So, that's just, like, one small strategy, but I've got five other ones if you want to talk about them. EVAN: Yeah, I mean, you highlighted a large goal that you have, and then some of the, like, sub-objectives in reaching that goal. And you could imagine key results being metrics along number of blog posts, audience size, number of readers, engagement. I mean, all those have different values, depending on what your goals are. VICTORIA: Exactly right. Like, there's the overall leading indicators we have of, like, whether or not we're successful as a business [laughs], which is, like, revenue, and, like, margins of profit, which really aren't going to change. And as a company, we don't change our policies or things that often to where those costs are ultimately going to change. It's all about, like, are we bringing in new business? Are we retaining the clients we have? And are we able to sustain, you know, work that centers around this problem area? So, that kind of, like, makes our goal tracking, like, the numbers month to month somewhat easy. Although those individual strategies and how they all line up to meet, that is something I think I'm curious to hear about how you facilitate those discussions with teams. How would you, like, begin an engagement with a team where you have a company like thoughtbot [laughs]? How are you going to coach us to get better at our goals? EVAN: Well, one thing I do is I pull apart KPIs, Key Performance Indicators, from OKRs, which you actually implied. KPIs are metrics you use to judge the health of your business, when OKRs are the goals that are going to transform your business. They fit well together. But, you know, for a founding team, they're still trying to figure out, well, how do we actually measure if this is going well? What does that mean? And I have a whole technique for that. But for a larger company, something like thoughtbot, you probably have pretty clear KPIs for the business and for each department. And you can look each month to make sure that those are in a healthy band or each week. And then, when you go to set goals, one of the things you can say is, "Hey, what's not working well? Why are the KPIs not where they should be?" And there's other ways of coming up with good goals, but I do think that's one of the starting points for goal setting. Another one, and I'm curious if you all have this here, is, like, a sense of what's holding back your growth. So, if you have a clear goal of growing your business year over year; usually, people in different departments have a sense of what challenges they're facing in executing towards those growth goals. And, fundamentally, there's usually some sort of competitive or market conditions or customer conditions that are concerning to you as a business in terms of where you're currently at. So, do you all have that type of, I guess, angle on thoughtbot's growth at all? VICTORIA: You know, for me, it's my first year as managing director. And experiencing how thoughtbot does planning, I appreciated our approach this year was to ask each managing director more like a retro style, like, "What should we do more of? What do we like doing? What didn't really work, and what should we do less of? And what other things do we want to start doing?" So, it's kind of similar to start, stop, continue but, you know, just really reflecting on, like, what's working? What should we do more of? What doesn't work, and we should just stop [laughs], or change, or figure out how to improve? And then, what should we start doing? And what kind of new behaviors do we need to practice and learn to build a better system? Which I think when you talk about what's holding people back, I think it's difficult to understand in a complex organization of 100 people how all these departments work together and how they contribute and support teams. So, I'm curious, from your experience, and you like to come in and organize and get focused, so if you have that level of complexity in an organization, how do you start to get people organized and understanding how they all work together and what's working and what's not? EVAN: Yeah, that's a good question. I might punt that to the second half of my answer here and answer an earlier question [inaudible 17:08] how we get started. Because I think that actually comes up as, like, the second piece. I think the first piece is, like, when I start with an organization, I usually sit down with the CEO. Maybe there's a founding team. Maybe it's a leadership team. And I try to understand their vision for where the company's going and, one, how clear and actionable it is. So, does it feel like, oh, I get exactly how they're going from point A to point B to point C, or is it a little bit murkier? And trying to nail that down. And sometimes I do, like, a strategy workshop around that. But the next piece is understanding if they have a clear plan for the next quarter, next year. When I come into companies, I'm doing OKRs quarterly. So, even if they don't have a clear strategy, we still need to set goals for the next quarter. I then have them just kind of draft goals with not that much guidance here. I might do some sort of training so everybody, like, understands what OKRs are. And then, you know, I do...and this is a common thing, I think, like, my background is in product, is trying to understand the root cause of things. So, usually, there's some goal that I can ask. And, usually, there's a goal that's, like, something that seems very strategic, like a new offering, or changing how the business is organized, or it's very growth revenue-oriented. Those are, like, the two types of goals that people usually come up with. So, there's a lot of just, like, asking why this is valuable, and kind of going up the ladder, down the ladder asking why it's valuable, and understanding what their root motivation is for doing this. And then going the other direction and saying, "Oh, if we did this, then what would happen?" And trying to just understand how they're thinking of this goal and how it fits in a longer chain of events. And, usually, through that process, we shift the focus point. So, it's rare that somebody comes up with, like, exactly the right goal. I think when they start understanding what would the effect be of that goal, sometimes one of those things is the actual goal. Or if there's a root cause, it doesn't always mean that we go to the root cause, right? If somebody wants to, like, fix their onboarding, and that's really, like, their whole focus point, you know, when you say, "Why?" and they talk about helping a certain customer get more focused. And then you may say, "Well, why?" And they say, "Oh, well, you know, we have this revenue model that involves helping them, and we make money." And "Why?" "So we can grow our business at a certain clip." And that's the arc that we build. That doesn't mean we go to, oh, well, you're trying to make more money faster. That might not be really what the focus should be for the quarter. So, we have to always start just trying to, like, dial in with what the right angle is. That's both...I think you want to choose the thing that's the most fundamental to the business that still feels attainable and focusable, if that's a word, in the short term, right? That's like, oh, this is a good target for a quarter or a year, if you're doing it on an annual basis. So, that's, like, how I usually get started with folks, which, you know, depending on how much thought there is around strategy, like, it goes in different ways. Sometimes, the company has a very, like, clear strategy, and then everything I said works pretty smoothly. And you get to a goal very quickly that you kind of orient the company around. If the strategy is either not explicit or maybe the CEO has a different vision for it than, you know, CTO or the head of sales, then there's more negotiating between folks and getting on the same page. And I think that's a whole, like, can of worms that we can dive into, but that's, like, a different type of exploration. VICTORIA: Yes, I love all that. I have so many follow-up things I want to ask. Just to play it back a little bit, too, I really resonated with some of what you're saying around it's kind of better to draft it; just write it. Like, the act of planning is more valuable than the plan itself. Like, get as close as you can as fast as you can [laughs]. That makes sense. Like, something that feels, like, good enough and, like, kind of go with it and, like, see how it goes. You know, like, I think that's a mindset that can be difficult to implement in an organization, especially if there's been, like, past trauma with, like, not meeting your goals. And how does that flow down to the organization? EVAN: That's a hard thing. VICTORIA: And it makes me think of, like, what you started with, like, talking about getting to the root of what's happening. Like, what are the motivations of individual people? Like, what's happened in the past? Like, trying to take an approach that's...I prefer blame-aware to blameless. You can't get away from the tendency to blame people. So, you just have to accept that that happens and kind of move on and, like, quickly go past it [laughs] and just, like, really get to, like, what are the facts? What does the data say about this organization? So, anyways, I think that that was where I went to. I think -- EVAN: One thing I did...I started with a new company; I guess, two or three quarters ago around the OKR coaching. And, you know, I think there was this expectation. We've been doing OKRs. There's issues we need you to come in and solve and fix everything. And the tone I tried to set was, hey, I'm not here to set great goals for you. You're going to set the best goals you can. And I'm here to help support that process and teach you a lot about goal setting. And we're going to do this every quarter. And after two or three quarters, things are going to start becoming a lot easier. People are going to communicate better. Everybody's going to be on the same page. And it's going to feel like, oh, we're getting really good at goal setting. And then, like, I try to set that tone when I start working with the CEO of, like, the point here is to make your whole leadership team good at goal setting so that you have this skill as an organization, rather than set just the right goals with the right language in the right way right now, right? We want to timebox everything. So, we're moving forward using this tool to make progress throughout the quarter, and then each quarter, revisiting it and getting better. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: And I'm curious if there's anything else when you're evaluating whether or not someone might be a good fit for the work that you want to do with them. Are there, like, some red flag, green flag energy that you check for with executives when you're deciding whether or not to work with them? EVAN: Yeah, there are two flags that come up; one is, are they clear with what they're saying? I think a lot of leaders want to sound good. So, that doesn't mean that they need to be clear right off the bat. But in a conversation where someone says, "This is our vision," and you say, "Hey, I don't understand X, Y, and Z," or "This part didn't make sense to me. Can we dive into it?" And yeah, if someone through a conversation can be really clear about what's important to the company and where they're going, I think that's, like, key. Because if someone's talking around issues all the time and when you kind of bring up things they don't really address it, it's very hard to make any progress. It's like, you know, the lack of specificity ends up being a defense towards maybe dealing with some of the difficult conversations. But, like, at the end of the day, like, one of the major things that happens with goal setting that makes it, I think, feel exciting to people when it does—it always feels exciting to me [laughs]—when it feels exciting to other people is that they say, for the first time, "Oh, this is actually the thing holding us back. This is the problem. Yeah, we want to grow our business." But when you say, "Well, what are all the things you do to grow your business?" All of a sudden, you start talking through things, and someone says, "Hey, this is the real problem. This is why we're struggling to grow our business." And, you know, that transforms the conversation. People who are avoiding being specific, that can be really hard. That's one thing. And the other thing is around responding to feedback. And, you know, you can just...and this is a common interview question, right? You can ask somebody, "What do you think the weaknesses of your organization are?" And if somebody doesn't know, but they're, like, open to it, that's, I think, totally fine. But if it seems like they're constantly kind of, like, filibustering the answer there, it's like, hey, the main thing you're bringing me on to do is to make sure that you communicate the weaknesses of your organization to everybody else because that's what goals are about. They're about overcoming the weaknesses of your organization. So, those are two areas. And they also speak to, like, I think, rapport with the people that I'll be working with. VICTORIA: I agree. And I like that, you know, you're asking really for people, are you going to be honest about what's happening in your organization? Are you honest with yourself about where you're not doing well? And I think I also pay attention to the language people use to describe those problems. And are they really speaking with a growth mindset or a fixed mindset? Because that's a really hard thing to change [laughs]. Naturally, I think people who are good leaders and run successful companies have a growth mindset. So, I think that's usually there. But that would be some yellow-flag stuff for me. EVAN: You know, when people are looking to hire an OKR coach, they usually already are looking for improvement. And it's not like they're hiring a product manager, right? You have to be saying to yourself, hey, I believe that if we did better around goals, our company would grow better. We'd have better focus. We'd have better alignment. Like, there's already a belief that people have that is usually pretty self-aware of the limits of both the people there and the organization where it's at today, and they're looking for help. So, I think I come across what you brought up more in individual people on a leadership team that, like, feel more coachable or less coachable depending on how interested they are around expanding how they think about things and growing. And, you know, obviously, [inaudible 27:01] lots of opinions that are wrong, and I love the disagreement that comes up there. But you want to, you know, you want to be speaking to people that are generally open to learning through a conversational process. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, I think it's like a confirming thing. Like, if they're reaching out to a goals coach, they probably do have a growth mindset. And if the top leadership does, then that means that there's an opportunity for other people to come along as well. So, I like opening it up that way and getting people to get specific about their goals as well. I think that's a real challenge. Like, it's either too vague or too specific, not inspiring enough. Some people still bring up SMART goals with me. I like to prefer HARD goals, but you probably need those. And I'm curious if you're familiar with those acronyms. I can spell them out. And I'm sure you've heard of both of these [laughs]. A lot of people are familiar with the SMART goals and the specific, measurable, actionable. I forget what the Rs and Ts are. But then HARD goals are heartfelt and more around, like, the big vision. And it's something that you want to get people excited about, which is something that you said earlier. Like, how do you get people excited? And some people would think of a corporate goal-setting event as a level three fun [laughter]. So, how do you make it more like a two or a one? EVAN: I don't know, a lot of what I hope I offer to folks...and I've gotten good feedback here is that I enjoy goal setting a lot. So, talking through all these problems, talking through challenges, doing workshops, having these conversations. Like, whenever I'm doing that, it's my favorite thing to be doing. So, I think, hopefully, some of my joy just rubs off on the people around me. Because I do think talking to somebody who's excited about what you're talking about is helpful. The other thing is, usually, at a decently small company, under 100 people, I'm working with the CEO and the leadership team; you know, people are there because they care about the company. They care about the mission of the company. They care about the people in the company, and they care about the growth of the company. So, I get why goal setting has, I think, can have a bad rap. But if you're fundamentally solving problems that people care about, there should be some, like, glee that comes in when people say, like, "Oh, yeah, I thought this was going to be about, like, how do we grow more? And that felt very generic to me." And it turns out when we actually think about how we grow more, and we talk through what's holding back our growth and what we can do to overcome that, and we have the top few ideas that we've all come up with, usually, those feel really relieving to people. And there's a company I'm working with now that I think is struggling to shift their target market a bit because...and there's awareness that the target market needs to shift, but there isn't so much knowledge around the new target market. There's a lot more knowledge around the old target market. And so, we're doing a bunch of research and talking to folks. And I know once we're able to say, "For this target market, we need to do X," there is going to be, like, a huge amount of excitement and relief at the organization because people will feel like, oh, we've crossed that bridge, that bridge that we were kind of in the middle of crossing and didn't really know where the other side was. We now can see that other side, and we're going there. So yeah, I think there can be a lot of excitement around this stuff when it's real, and it's important work that you're doing. VICTORIA: Right. Like, maybe there's a good factor of, like, how do you measure if what you've done with a company is successful? Is there a glee scale that you [laughs] use to evaluate? EVAN: You know, for me, it's still probably more subjective than I want it to be. You know, I'd love it to be like, what percentage of people's OKRs did I [laughs] hit each quarter? And when I work with them, it gets better. But I think that's, like, a pretty short-sighted view in terms of my role. So, you know, I'm looking for people who were maybe disengaged to be more engaged, people who didn't see the value of OKRs to see and be able to articulate how their daily work is different because of the OKRs we set. Yeah, and obviously, there's excitement when we're solving real problems. And we're changing the problems each quarter, and people are seeing growth increase. You know, like, all that stuff, I guess there's, like, a tangible excitement with. But I hope folks can, like, just connect the dots between the work, which can be tedious work around goal setting and negotiating with people. And often, it pulls you out of other day-to-day work that you're doing, especially for a small company, with the excitement towards the end of the quarter of reaching these goals and moving on to the next challenge. VICTORIA: I think that's great. I think that was a perfect answer. It's kind of not always easy to know what [laughs]...like, sometimes there's a sense of it, like, you have a feeling, and sometimes you can get data to back that up. And other times, you know you're doing the right thing by the people's faces around you at the end of the workshop [laughs]. So, I think that's great. And so, maybe my final question would be is, like, what would be the ideal organization that you would want to work with? Like, who's your ideal customer right now? EVAN: Yeah, I guess I have two ideal customers based on these, like, two things that I'm doing. In terms of the OKR coaching, I usually look for CEO or founding team of a company that's now, like, 20-plus people who's saying, "Oh, we have these departments," or "We have this leadership team. And we need to really get all on the same page at the beginning of the quarter because then everybody's going to consistently be talking to each other but has other people that they need to organize." That's definitely for the OKR coaching where, like, 20 to 30 people is where that starts. That probably goes up to 100 in terms of where I focus. For the other work I do as a Techstars mentor and the coaching I do through that, that's really for founding teams. And that's more focused on how do you take your vision and make that a clear goal statement, which is around, like, behavior change, usually, in a certain population you're targeting? How do you turn that into a go-to-market plan? How do you turn that into a product roadmap? So, for that, that's just much smaller teams. I actually think that work often needs to be done at larger organizations, too. That's, like, a common thing that comes up. And that can bleed into strategy at large organizations. But yeah, I know that's probably a pretty broad bucket, but groups of people that believe that focus is a key lever towards faster growth. VICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I guess I said that was my final question, but I'll add two more questions. Can you share an anecdote from being a mentor at Techstars that you think will be interesting for our audience? EVAN: I think I was struck the first time I did the mentoring. They do, like, a Mentor Madness. So, it's like, you know, six companies in a row, and every company they all have different challenges. But a lot of them, it's, like, helping them articulate what they're doing a little bit more clearly. And often, there's a question around sales and growth and maybe fundraising. So, there's just, like, a focus in that direction. And I found that every company, even though they had kind of different questions, I was giving the same answer to, which was, I don't think your goal is clear to you or to me. And so, there's this framework that I would use with each company that there was, like, this aha moment. And I picked this up from a person named Matt Wallaert. It was a book, "Start at the End." It's called a behavioral statement. And it's when population wants to motivation, and they have limitations, they do behavior as measured by data. And the kind of conceptual version is, oh, you're trying to get some group of people to change their behavior. And that's only going to happen if you can tap into a motivation that happens to them as frequently as the behavior you want to change. So, it's like a formalization of that. And each group, I'd like bring up the statement; we work on filling it quickly. And there was just, like, a clarity that would develop around what they were doing and how to orient themselves both on the growth and marketing side and on the product development side. I guess it just struck me how much that little framing was transformative to [laughs] accelerating both focus and alignment but, more importantly, like, getting somewhere that they wanted to get to. VICTORIA: It sounds almost like building a mental model of what you're trying to do [laughs], right? Like, it was a mental model that you referenced in your mind that helps you make decisions every single day. So, I really appreciate that. And we are about out of time. So, let me ask you, is there anything else that you would like to promote today? EVAN: Sure. Looking for a couple more OKR coaching clients for the new year, and just happy to chat with anybody who has questions around OKRs or goal setting for their organization. I also do personal goals coaching, which is a little different from the OKR coaching that I help individual people with their goals. But it's also similar. It's a lot of like...it's a lot more, like, reflection, and getting to know oneself, and coming up with goals that are really meaningful. And then the other half of, like, I think you alluded to this earlier around systems. Like, how do you take a goal that's important to you and actually act every day in ways that move you towards that goal? So yeah, interested in talking to people about both of those. I do some workshops as well, so people can reach out to me at evan@evanhammer.com. I can also put anybody on my mailing list. I do some workshops around both those things. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Evan, for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guest: Evan Hammer.

Evan You, the creator of Vue and Vite, returns to talk about the challenges and lessons he learned when creating Vue 3.0. Links https://twitter.com/youyuxi https://github.com/yyx990803 https://evanyou.me/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanyou Tell us what you think of PodRocket We want to hear from you! We want to know what you love and hate about the podcast. What do you want to hear more about? Who do you want to see on the show? Our producers want to know, and if you talk with us, we'll send you a $25 gift card! If you're interested, schedule a call with us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) or you can email producer Kate Trahan at kate@logrocket.com (mailto:kate@logrocket.com) Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Evan You.

WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?Learn about folk culture and heritage with Evan Hatch, Executive Director of Folkmoot USA. Listen to this episode, as he dedicated this to all folks who carry forward their heritage through music, dance, and song!EPISODE SUMMARY:What's the Folkmoot USA all about? Discover all about the Folkmoot USA with Evan Hatch on our podcast! Tune in as Joseph interviews Mr. Hatch, an expert folklorist with almost two decades of experience as a Grammy Award-winning record producer, event production coordinator, vernacular artist, documentary filmmaker, and recorder of oral history, as well as holding high-level management experience with some of the most prestigious cultural organizations in the Southeast. Hatch is currently the Executive Director of one of the oldest and most popular educational centers and festivals in the Southeast—Folkmoot – with headquarters in Waynesville, N.C. He holds degrees from both UNC and Ole Miss and resides in Waynesville. He's going to tell us all about the Folkmoot USA, including what it is and how you can get involved! He will also share what makes this festival so unique, as well as how he got involved in this industry and how he got started. Don't miss this episode! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhatch22/ Website: https://www.folkmoot.org/‍EPISODE QUOTE: “If you want to get to know your future ancestors I would definitely talk about going to my website, Narrate Project, which is a business I;'m still running and still love to do.” Tune in for this fun conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here. SHOW NOTESSEGMENT 1Originally from North Carolina, 1980 to 2000. His father was in the military so they traveled a lot as a family and in his retirement, they settled in North Carolina. He returned to school in 1996 to find his career interest. He recalls his teachers as brilliant and experts with interesting backgrounds. High/ popular culture has caused the folk culture to be looked down upon.SEGMENT 2He won a Grammy for Best Album Notes in 2008 and goes into detail behind the inspiration of his work for that award. Bill Monroe was inspired by black artists and he praises musicians who are not racists and truly care about music and collaborations. He gets hired to do extensive interviews with families' loved ones, so they can hold onto their legacy through his work. Ethan gives a shout-out to Folkstream.net, which has the best documentaries of folks from the 1950s. The festival that he had the most fun organizing is The National Folk Festival in Nashville.SEGMENT 3Folkmoot has been around for 38 years as a festival and the organization has been around for 50 years. The meaning of Folkmoot is “meeting of people '' and the creator, Dr. Border was inspired by the European folk festivals. The Folkmoot Friendship Center is taking part in renting out a historic school's classrooms which date back to 1935 and was founded by WPA. People can use it as galleries and workspace. Soar Academy also provides outdoor school.SEGMENT 4Since the Folkmoot Summer Fest will be smaller they are enabled to invest in Fal and Spring programming. Hatch has been able to turn something many views as a hobby into a career.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------TRANSCRIPT00:00:37.020 –> 00:00:39.900 Joseph McElroy: howdy welcome to the gateway to the smokies.00:00:39.900 –> 00:00:48.630 Joseph McElroy: podcast this podcast is about America's most visited National Park, the great smoky mountains National Park in the surrounding towns.00:00:49.350 –> 00:00:57.780 Joseph McElroy: This area is filled with ancient natural beauty deep storied history and rich mountain cultures that we explore with weekly episodes.00:00:58.530 –> 00:01:12.720 Joseph McElroy: I am Joseph Franklyn McElroy man of the world, but also with deep roots in these mountains my family is living the great smokies for over 200 years my businesses and travel, but my heart is in culture today we're going to talk about.00:01:13.890 –> 00:01:23.550 Joseph McElroy: Folkmoot USA and beaten with the Executive Director Evan Hatch reversed a few sponsor messages and some events coming up.00:01:25.380 –> 00:01:32.700 Joseph McElroy: I want you to imagine a place evocative of the motor court of the past, yet modern and vibrant with a chic Appalachian feel.00:01:33.450 –> 00:01:44.910 Joseph McElroy: a place for adventure and for relaxation imagine a place where you can have fish and mountain heritage trout stream grill the catch on fire and eat accompanied by fine wine or craft beers.00:01:45.420 –> 00:01:57.690 Joseph McElroy: Imagine a place of old-time music and world cultural sounds, there is no other place like the Meadowlark Motel Maggie Valley North Carolina your smoky mountain adventure starts with where you stay.00:01:58.920 –> 00:02:09.690 Joseph McElroy: Another sponsor is smokies adventure.com that smokies plural of interesting either the smoky mountains and surrounding area is a vacation destination for all sees.00:02:10.290 –> 00:02:17.760 Joseph McElroy: Some of the nation's best hiking trails waterfalls outdoor adventures and fans of family entertainment can be found, right here.00:02:18.300 –> 00:02:25.410 Joseph McElroy: start your adventure by using smokies adventure calm to explore all the wonderful features of the great smoky mountain National Park.00:02:25.920 –> 00:02:37.050 Joseph McElroy: The trails the waterfalls the cage coven the elk and more then check out all the awesome family attractions and entertainment you're retired family can enjoy.00:02:37.410 –> 00:02:44.940 Joseph McElroy: Fine lodging find places to stay find places to eat find where you can do outdoor life events like weddings and honeymoons.00:02:45.600 –> 00:02:53.220 Joseph McElroy: it's all at the smokies adventure calm, which is the leading information portal for adventure experiences of the great smoky mountains.00:02:53.910 –> 00:03:17.310 Joseph McElroy: So events coming up at the Meadowlark on this coming Saturday, July 23 at 6pm we're having smoky Blue Rain it's a trio of Len Graham Fillmore name is Jackson their brand of Americana music is infectious blend folk light rock blues jazz touch of traditional country.00:03:18.360 –> 00:03:30.990 Joseph McElroy: They met through a mutual friend and that and that first group know realize that they had something special so come on over to the metal or motel and there's also a Barbecue and and and another find.00:03:32.640 –> 00:03:41.490 Joseph McElroy: Things to enjoy starting at 6 pm and the mission is free for hotel guests and imperatives club members and it's just $10 for everybody else.00:03:42.060 –> 00:03:56.610 Joseph McElroy: So rsvp is required for the Barbecue dinner so call eight to 89261717 for tickets and come enjoy some food and bbq now some of you might know that there was recently a.00:03:57.750 –> 00:04:01.320 Joseph McElroy: A viral event on tick tock or.00:04:02.700 –> 00:04:20.520 Joseph McElroy: cloggers from Western North Carolina especially specifically down on Jonathan creek here in a wood county went viral and got seen by like 100 million people's names ED and he's part of the J creek cloggers and so they're coming to the metal Arc motel on July 30 at 7:30 pm.00:04:21.960 –> 00:04:22.680 Joseph McElroy: We have.00:04:23.790 –> 00:04:31.200 Joseph McElroy: two great mountain heritage events put on by the metal Arc smoky mountain heritage Center and also include an evening at dinner and dancing.00:04:32.460 –> 00:04:50.640 Joseph McElroy: begins with the bbq had six and then the performance of the jquery cloggers at 730 and that's that includes music, they will perform a bunch of examples of traditional mountain dancing as well as teaching the audience several fun dance steps there's going to be.00:04:52.200 –> 00:05:00.420 Joseph McElroy: interactive performance or everybody will get to dance and then there'll also be a short talk by Kim Ross who was on the show here a few weeks ago.00:05:00.810 –> 00:05:17.130 Joseph McElroy: On the history, and traditions of mountain dancy so Dr you grab your partner and come on by admission is free for hotel guests and parents come Members as 20 bucks for people that are not a standard hotel just call eight to 89261717 to reserve your spot.00:05:18.180 –> 00:05:31.200 Joseph McElroy: And then, a big event we got coming up August 12 or 13th is a songwriters can, and this is a, this is a serious one, this is a Grammy award-winning songwriters you got Jim Lauderdale who's written.00:05:31.680 –> 00:05:42.240 Joseph McElroy: hits many of George strait's it he wrote that song king of the broken hearts and then you got Charles Humphrey The third is another grammy award winner, along with the.00:05:42.900 –> 00:05:49.860 Joseph McElroy: Award-winning artists, such as their Nicholson clay mills and Charles chambers.00:05:50.460 –> 00:05:58.860 Joseph McElroy: And you know Darren Nicholson one of the main musicians and balsam range as big around these parts so it's going to be a fantastic event.00:05:59.220 –> 00:06:08.910 Joseph McElroy: it's going to be a two-day event of interactive songwriting instruction so there'll be both candles but they're also be working individually with all the arts.00:06:09.840 –> 00:06:21.210 Joseph McElroy: world-class musicians and they'll get a DEMO tape producer one of your songs they're also a concert on a Friday night by the songs from the road band.00:06:22.620 –> 00:06:34.290 Joseph McElroy: Which is Charles Humphreys band, and then a Barbecue dinner and all-star concert with all those artists, on Saturday night, this is a unique event like no other and space will be limited, ensure that everybody gets attention.00:06:35.370 –> 00:06:52.860 Joseph McElroy: So the songwriter campus 678 $75 a person includes all the activities and DEMO tape and everything else, and you also can get yourself a room at the middle like motel if you're coming from out of town and it also includes dinner and breakfast and things like that.00:06:54.210 –> 00:07:06.810 Joseph McElroy: If there's also a limited number of tickets available for just coming to the concerts either on Friday or Saturday night so call eight to 89261717 to get your ticket and reserve your space.00:07:08.730 –> 00:07:21.360 Joseph McElroy: Somebody knows a lot about events Now is our guest tonight his name is David hatch he's an expert folklorist with almost two gay two decades of experience as a grammy award-winning.00:07:21.720 –> 00:07:28.950 Joseph McElroy: record producer event production coordinator vernacular artists documentary filmmaker and recorder of oral history.00:07:29.370 –> 00:07:37.170 Joseph McElroy: As well as holy high-level management experience with some of the most prestigious cultural organizations in the southeast.00:07:38.070 –> 00:07:47.790 Joseph McElroy: hatches Evan hatches is currently the executive director, of one of the oldest and most popular educational centers and festivals in the southeast folks.00:07:48.300 –> 00:08:05.040 Joseph McElroy: With headquarters, right here in haven county in Waynesville North Carolina he holds degrees from both unc and old mess resides and waiting for, where he enjoys cooking camping photography, and reading and is limited spare time I don't know how he has a spare time how you doing.00:08:06.360 –> 00:08:09.510 Evan: I'm good Joseph thanks for having me here thanks for making me sound like.00:08:10.590 –> 00:08:15.480 Joseph McElroy: A listen when you do accomplishments it doesn't take much does that make you sound good because you are.00:08:17.460 –> 00:08:20.850 Joseph McElroy: So you said you're only been here for three and a half weeks and welcome a wood county.00:08:21.090 –> 00:08:23.490 Evan: Right three and a half months but it.00:08:24.000 –> 00:08:25.410 Evan: might mean a half yeah.00:08:27.180 –> 00:08:28.200 Joseph McElroy: it's all right well.00:08:28.860 –> 00:08:38.250 Joseph McElroy: Well I'm so excited that you gotta know this new job both books as I used to do some great things, but first I want to talk a little bit about your background.00:08:38.610 –> 00:08:42.180 Joseph McElroy: sure how you've worked, both in North Carolina and Tennessee Where are you originally from.00:08:43.050 –> 00:08:45.750 Evan: I'm actually from North Carolina I grew up in North Carolina.00:08:46.830 –> 00:08:55.230 Evan: Graham North Carolina's my hometown and I was raised there from let's say 1980 and.00:08:55.710 –> 00:09:10.290 Evan: to 2000 you know, and so I was born in California actually moved around my dad was in the military for a little while and then he retired and we settled down in a small town North Carolina Graham write down and try.00:09:11.220 –> 00:09:18.360 Joseph McElroy: it's right yeah I spent a number of years in the Durham wait for Jerry Raleigh Durham area.00:09:19.920 –> 00:09:22.950 Joseph McElroy: Though you know a middle stage is also a lovely place.00:09:24.240 –> 00:09:27.510 Evan: 20 minutes from there, but yes, I spent a lot of time there myself yeah.00:09:27.720 –> 00:09:28.980 Joseph McElroy: yeah no i've.00:09:29.460 –> 00:09:29.910 Evan: grown it.00:09:31.860 –> 00:09:36.360 Joseph McElroy: How did your love for folklore cultural history music begin and.00:09:38.280 –> 00:09:43.710 Evan: Good question man, and you know, sometimes I've asked myself that over and over and over again, you know I would say.00:09:45.210 –> 00:09:53.640 Evan: um I went I started college a little bit too early and I had too good of a time in my first couple of years.00:09:54.660 –> 00:10:03.090 Evan: After I decided to kind of get serious went back to school and in 1996 and I started taking classes.00:10:04.380 –> 00:10:16.200 Evan: In what my parents said just try stuff find out what you like see what you enjoy and I started taking classes and folklore and American studies and I found.00:10:16.680 –> 00:10:26.430 Evan: I really enjoyed these classes, because my teachers were brilliant they were so smart and they were so entertaining and they had just like.00:10:26.850 –> 00:10:36.270 Evan: They got to study things that I just thought were super cool and one teacher who was an expert on coney island in the 19 you know, in the heyday and.00:10:39.270 –> 00:10:49.860 Evan: wow yeah another Professor Robert Cantwell wrote a book called ethno mesas and also we're about a bluegrass break day, so these books, although.00:10:50.400 –> 00:11:10.320 Evan: Very academic and above my head, it was just cool to be able to study you know stuff that I thought that you know that the common every day the things that surround us all the time and the history of the folk you know I find that to be really, really fascinating I am.00:11:11.520 –> 00:11:15.990 Evan: You know it's hard to look at it's not really a correct way of looking at it, but if you look at.00:11:17.280 –> 00:11:20.700 Evan: Culture saying you want to look at it through the lenses of.00:11:21.780 –> 00:11:31.140 Evan: Music you got you to know your high culture, which is very you know very respected and academic and if you look at music, you can say that's simple.00:11:32.310 –> 00:11:48.330 Evan: If you're looking at pop music, you could say well that's lady gaga or and then you can start looking at folk music and it's you know it's traditional fiddles that's what you know people have been playing for years and years for fun and.00:11:49.380 –> 00:11:59.490 Evan: And for living and for you know and just to be bearers of culture and I just find that stuff absolutely fascinated often seem that people respected high culture.00:12:00.810 –> 00:12:02.190 Evan: And that.00:12:03.300 –> 00:12:11.400 Evan: There is some sort of inherent coolness and outsiders do not have to look at folk culture and I.00:12:12.300 –> 00:12:12.930 Joseph McElroy: Would you say.00:12:13.050 –> 00:12:15.060 Joseph McElroy: What do you say hi culture is actually.00:12:16.110 –> 00:12:23.220 Joseph McElroy: it's it's more of a just fashion choices necessarily as a quality choice, I mean I think a lot of folk.00:12:24.840 –> 00:12:39.870 Joseph McElroy: folk what we consider folk entertainment is actually quite high quality but it's you know the fashion, is you know Jen driven by you know decisions and not necessarily even in the nature of the music and.00:12:40.920 –> 00:12:42.810 Joseph McElroy: arts things like that right.00:12:42.840 –> 00:12:53.190 Evan: The total Joseph that stuff combines right you think Aaron Copeland the great American composer he was writing about American folk subjects you think of Ricard Wagner little ride of the valkyries.00:12:54.390 –> 00:13:00.930 Evan: he's a silly wrote a symphony but he wrote it about a German folk tale, so all this stuff online forms one.00:13:02.070 –> 00:13:06.090 Joseph McElroy: All right, well, we got we were hitting our first break already so um.00:13:06.570 –> 00:13:07.620 Evan: yeah yeah.00:13:07.710 –> 00:13:10.590 Joseph McElroy: yeah I I talked to us but.00:13:12.420 –> 00:13:17.310 Joseph McElroy: So we will come back we'll talk more about your background and get away with stuff you're doing today to.00:13:18.000 –> 00:13:18.630 Evan: That sounds great.00:13:19.680 –> 00:13:20.190 Evan: Thanks Joseph00:15:36.450 –> 00:15:52.260 Joseph McElroy: howdy this is Joseph Franklin McElroy back with the gateway to the smokies podcasts and my guest Evan Hutch so Evan so you ended up graduating from Carolina and then a paid your masters at Ole miss.00:15:52.350 –> 00:15:53.370 Joseph McElroy: And then you had.00:15:53.880 –> 00:16:05.790 Joseph McElroy: have had a successful two-decade career that's actually spanned a lot of variety of interesting fields and hopefully, we'll get into a little bit of that, but the one that jumped out to me, you know, being an artist.00:16:06.900 –> 00:16:20.700 Joseph McElroy: And performer myself, is that you, you were involved with spring fed records and you want to Grammy Award for producing an album so tell me about the spring federal records and how you became involved and what was the Grammy awards.00:16:22.140 –> 00:16:40.920 Evan: moved to Tennessee in 2002 we started a record label over at the art Center Camden county the idea was to highlight some of the hillbilly music, that was the pro country that led to the beginnings of bluegrass music and old-time music so.00:16:42.030 –> 00:16:48.690 Evan: We took a lot of historical recordings that were in archive stuff that hadn't been heard, except by you know.00:16:49.230 –> 00:16:58.800 Evan: Musicologists are people who recorded them and years and worked closely with the families to reissue those records and clean them up on audio.00:16:59.100 –> 00:17:08.190 Evan: offered really strong liner notes, so that people could kind of understand their history of the recordings, the first thing we did was uncle Dave making at home, he was the.00:17:08.850 –> 00:17:16.620 Evan: King of the hillbillies he was the first superstar of the grand Ole opry and one of the greatest entertainers ever country music.00:17:17.820 –> 00:17:22.470 Evan: We also did a really strong Corey with salmon Kirkwall key who are.00:17:23.610 –> 00:17:33.840 Evan: Co conspirators are co creators with uncle Dave making and one of the first brother do those on the grand Ole opry and all those guys I understood showmanship you know kind of that still goes through.00:17:34.650 –> 00:17:43.800 Evan: That still go through country music today that kind of joking, and the costume where and and and you know people really engage with the audience as entertainers.00:17:44.310 –> 00:17:44.880 Joseph McElroy: You also.00:17:45.990 –> 00:17:48.480 Joseph McElroy: Get the legendary blues man john heard on there wasn't.00:17:48.660 –> 00:17:53.400 Evan: We didn't that's correct, yes, and that was actually a recording that was made in 63.00:17:54.300 –> 00:17:55.830 Evan: long after john hurt.00:17:56.130 –> 00:18:03.930 Evan: finished his recording career and this crazy dude from Bob Hoskins excuse me, Tom Hoskins.00:18:04.410 –> 00:18:16.110 Evan: drove all the way down from Washington DC and he was going to go pay his respect john hurts grave site and when he found up wound up in Avalon Mississippi he found Mr hurts still very much alive.00:18:17.520 –> 00:18:17.970 Evan: and00:18:18.300 –> 00:18:21.870 Evan: hit record, and that is, those recordings from 63.00:18:21.990 –> 00:18:28.680 Evan: From that john, hurt says wow you have a chance to a second career went back and started playing folk festivals.00:18:29.220 –> 00:18:30.060 Joseph McElroy: that's fabulous.00:18:31.290 –> 00:18:33.630 Evan: was pretty lucky to do that work with a family.00:18:34.200 –> 00:18:37.830 Joseph McElroy: And you have other iconic what you had other iconic black artists on there right.00:18:38.280 –> 00:18:47.940 Evan: yeah so the one that we won the Grammy for is called john work three recordings that culture john work with third was a classically trained composer.00:18:49.020 –> 00:18:59.280 Evan: But at the same time it's 1930s and 1940s, he worked at Fisk University, he also really appreciated folk music the brilliant thing about john work is that.00:19:00.060 –> 00:19:10.440 Evan: He was a like a trust classically trained composer so he can hear music and then write it down a notation so it didn't have to be recorded, but he could write it down.00:19:10.890 –> 00:19:19.050 Evan: So he did all these studies of a folk music can eat record and frazier and Patterson is a black string band country string band and nashville.00:19:19.500 –> 00:19:30.450 Evan: He recorded blues music in Georgia and sacred heart sing in northern Alabama just stuff that people, no one ever heard about he then came to be known, he was picked up.00:19:31.620 –> 00:19:47.010 Evan: befriended by Alan lomax who some of your viewers are probably know the right folklorist and together they recorded the Co houma county study in Mississippi and the Center of that study was a gentleman named mckinley Morgan field.00:19:48.090 –> 00:19:49.920 Evan: Who was later, known as muddy waters.00:19:50.490 –> 00:19:52.830 Evan: wow yeah somebody.00:19:55.410 –> 00:19:55.830 Joseph McElroy: Was.00:19:55.860 –> 00:19:59.910 Evan: very flattered to be recorded by these gentlemen, he said, well these guys want to hear me.00:20:00.690 –> 00:20:16.080 Evan: Maybe i'll grow up Chicago and become muddy waters and that's what he did so that was a 1942 record was made some of the end all those recordings were john works, and so we reissued those cleaned up the sound recordings and.00:20:17.160 –> 00:20:24.450 Evan: get some really extensive liner notes Bruce number of that wrote those that's what we won that grammy for best liner notes best.00:20:24.450 –> 00:20:26.340 Joseph McElroy: album what were you did you win the grammy.00:20:27.150 –> 00:20:29.550 Evan: oh eight I guess you could say.00:20:30.240 –> 00:20:42.990 Joseph McElroy: All right, so uh I don't know I don't have all your career milestones in chronological order, but you had you were an assistant director of an organization called black and global roots, can you tell me about that.00:20:44.850 –> 00:20:54.060 Evan: Yes, I worked with Dr CC conway CC is she's a professor at appalachian state and is one of the leading experts on.00:20:55.110 –> 00:21:05.430 Evan: The banjo and black culture and so she actually is one of the first people to trace those roots of the the banjo as it came from Africa and started to influence American music.00:21:06.390 –> 00:21:12.180 Evan: Actually, she is, I think, probably the most in most senior we're putting together the Carolina chocolate drops so she.00:21:13.440 –> 00:21:14.940 Evan: hosted them at the.00:21:16.080 –> 00:21:25.920 Evan: Black banjo gathering and appalachian state a few years ago and kind of put them all together and they went off to become the Carolina chocolate drops.00:21:26.580 –> 00:21:39.420 Evan: So what she wanted to do a data conway wants to do is to give venues and give audiences to underrepresented folk performers so so she would.00:21:39.900 –> 00:21:50.700 Evan: We be playing concerts and being able to pay, working artists to give them an audience they wouldn't usually here and that range from blues to cajun zydeco to.00:21:51.870 –> 00:21:56.550 Evan: Country music but mostly from underrepresented artists yeah and that was.00:21:57.030 –> 00:22:06.900 Joseph McElroy: It wasn't the introduction of the banjo really brought up the custom element to say a scratch iris ballad during and really created bluegrass.00:22:07.950 –> 00:22:15.240 Evan: I would say, so I mean I know the bill Monroe created bluegrass is definitely learned a lot that he learned from black musicians for sure.00:22:16.530 –> 00:22:31.020 Evan: And I think that's the coolest thing about musicians right is that they are kind of the first anti racist they don't care what color you are they don't care where you're from as long as you can play music you speak a common language and that gets passed a lot of stuff you know.00:22:31.740 –> 00:22:42.840 Joseph McElroy: Oh yeah so I was looking at a new, I was looking at your linkedin profile and you've been until you know you ever had a company called Mary what is nary.00:22:43.800 –> 00:22:44.280 well.00:22:45.420 –> 00:22:50.760 Evan: That was a probably ill conceived business that I started during during the coven.00:22:52.890 –> 00:22:55.740 Joseph McElroy: What better time to create a business that feel.00:22:56.280 –> 00:22:56.850 Evan: Like everybody.00:22:58.260 –> 00:22:58.650 Evan: Every.00:22:58.980 –> 00:23:04.230 Evan: Every feeble minded person I know started the business now i'm just kidding it's been a really great.00:23:04.770 –> 00:23:06.090 Joseph McElroy: run my business went to die.00:23:08.430 –> 00:23:19.080 Evan: Well yeah so we had lots of time and essentially it's all history business so families or people hire me to do extensive interviews with their loved.00:23:19.110 –> 00:23:28.470 Evan: ones, so that those interviews wow there are well researched and you know and deeply conducted then.00:23:29.010 –> 00:23:38.730 Evan: By doing that interview and recording that and essentially gives the legacy to the family, so that they can hold on to those recordings somebody.00:23:39.150 –> 00:23:50.220 Evan: yeah loved one before they pass away and the idea came, you know there's everybody always has a story about I wish i'd listened to my grandmother I wish I had saved.00:23:50.880 –> 00:24:00.390 Evan: Her last storytelling or I wish i'd say that last phone message, and if you don't it's too late and it happens to everybody so try not to wait.00:24:01.710 –> 00:24:14.580 Joseph McElroy: Now I I felt that you know I I recorded I did video tapes my grandmother and her brother, you know just a year so before she died because I i've always felt that need yeah.00:24:15.060 –> 00:24:22.530 Evan: Yes, it did it i'm glad this everybody's got a story to tell everybody's got knowledge to pass on.00:24:23.340 –> 00:24:33.180 Joseph McElroy: Now I don't know this term Bob you know plot who works with me, you know put together some information, he said, this is called vernacular art Is that correct.00:24:34.290 –> 00:24:41.580 Evan: um yeah I think that's a really good way of looking at it, I think that term to me, you know, because the vernacular as a as a as a way of speaking.00:24:42.120 –> 00:24:57.390 Evan: And that's what this artwork does is it a you know it puts it in a Community puts it in a place, but it also it's how it's how it's a common language that people share and that's communicated so yeah I think vernacular what's fair and good way this fabulous.00:24:58.500 –> 00:25:10.710 Joseph McElroy: Now shift yeah The more I look at your your your your history of us just a lot of things, I mean you are also been an event festival director and coordinator.00:25:11.910 –> 00:25:17.190 Joseph McElroy: Right and then you create a document documentary film on southern music what was that.00:25:18.240 –> 00:25:24.420 Evan: um well, let me say I did a couple of we did do a couple of documentaries.00:25:25.500 –> 00:25:28.230 Evan: And just I think your viewers my liking if I could plug.00:25:29.790 –> 00:25:34.830 Evan: Great website called folk streams.net.00:25:35.130 –> 00:25:35.580 Joseph McElroy: Oh it's.00:25:36.690 –> 00:25:53.730 Evan: The best collection of folk documentaries made from the 1950s forward and they're all available for free just for streaming on that website, you will find the coolest vernacular art forms on there anything from music to basket tree to.00:25:54.780 –> 00:26:01.050 Evan: You know pottery to dance, you know so all that stuff guys covered very well.00:26:02.790 –> 00:26:14.850 Evan: a couple of music documentaries that we made were they were again those three issues, so one my favorite I guess was Raul mash and that was a.00:26:16.290 –> 00:26:31.410 Evan: Sol Sol Korean and blame Dunlap had produced in the 1970s, a portrait essentially a video portrait of hamper mech be who is Tennessee's popcorn Sutton.00:26:32.040 –> 00:26:42.810 Evan: Essentially, he was like the greatest moonshot are the most famous moon shatter in Tennessee history, not to mention a fine balance Center he was a great.00:26:43.290 –> 00:26:58.080 Evan: roaring baritone acapella ballad singer and that movie raw mash which is available and folks streams, is basically a 30 minute portrait of hamper but also how to make moonshine from start to finish.00:26:58.650 –> 00:26:59.160 wow.00:27:01.350 –> 00:27:11.430 Joseph McElroy: That sounds good, thank you for the reference for that i'm gonna go i'm gonna go to that site start doubting my my new passion for vernacular art.00:27:13.230 –> 00:27:14.610 Evan: Do you like it.00:27:15.330 –> 00:27:26.730 Joseph McElroy: yeah and you've done a lot of festivals, he did the local fast and hillsborough and some others, what is the most notable or fun festival that you helped to originator develop.00:27:27.330 –> 00:27:36.750 Evan: Tom and it was it was a total failure, but it was the best festival I ever did it was a national boat festival in Nashville Tennessee and.00:27:38.070 –> 00:27:45.180 Evan: We didn't have like people we did it on Labor day weekend, not a great idea or nationals of free music town so.00:27:45.660 –> 00:27:50.310 Evan: Not everybody came out to it, because you can see, you know you can see, free music everywhere in nashville but.00:27:50.970 –> 00:28:10.740 Evan: content was amazing and we did the history of the music business, so we had tour buses, we had flatt and scruggs tour bus that people could tour, we had a modern tour bus we had hair cutters and hat show France costume makers like man well was out there, it was an amazing show.00:28:11.040 –> 00:28:11.580 Evan: wow.00:28:12.060 –> 00:28:24.120 Joseph McElroy: really well i'm i'm i'm impressed and, but I want to do now is take a break and then we'll come back and talk about your new position and what you're doing with the folks who ne ne we can.00:28:24.900 –> 00:28:25.980 Evan: Thanks Joseph sounds good.00:30:32.220 –> 00:30:39.240 Joseph McElroy: howdy this is Joseph Franklin McElroy back with the gateway to the smokies podcasts and my guest Evan Hatch, So Evan,00:30:39.780 –> 00:30:44.760 Joseph McElroy: I've been we've been talking about your career and some of the things we didn't get into but they're incredible is that you're.00:30:45.120 –> 00:30:52.740 Joseph McElroy: A director of programming in a forest folk art Center in Tennessee and then you were the director of programming for procedures organizations like the North Carolina.00:30:53.130 –> 00:31:09.150 Joseph McElroy: folklife life Institute, but what's exciting to me and those of us around the game with his focus is that you're now taking on a new role as the Executive Director of folk I'm sure you're excited about that.00:31:11.100 –> 00:31:17.430 Joseph McElroy: And, and for the sake of our audience may not know about it, can you tell us what Folkmoot is?00:31:18.510 –> 00:31:19.890 Evan: yeah you know.00:31:21.030 –> 00:31:30.450 Evan: I feel challenged by this task because there are so many people in this in this county and Haywood county you know so much more than I ever will about it.00:31:30.870 –> 00:31:35.880 Evan: And because I've taken this job three months ago it's become my job to talk about it.00:31:36.570 –> 00:31:47.580 Evan: My understanding of folkmoot is that it is a festival that has been around for 38 years and the Organization has been around close to 50 gentlemen named.00:31:48.270 –> 00:32:02.730 Evan: Dr. Borders, who was a surgeon here and Haywood county was a great lover of folk music and took some trips to Europe and experienced some folk festivals at the old English folk festivals.00:32:03.510 –> 00:32:07.200 Evan: which were also named folkmoot over there and then I felt moved.00:32:07.710 –> 00:32:22.980 Evan: As an old English term for a meeting of the phone so essentially it means folk meet that's what people come together they exchange ideas they exchange culture and dance and music probably some beer to I wouldn't be surprised.00:32:25.980 –> 00:32:34.230 Evan: So after seeing that he realized Dr border realizes that it's not that dissimilar from what's going on here and.00:32:34.620 –> 00:32:42.510 Evan: You know, in the great smoky mountains, there are people who play music who get together we share this dance through you know.00:32:43.320 –> 00:32:55.500 Evan: folk code culture, they get together they sing on front Porches they practice religion together they dance together and he thought that this was.00:32:55.950 –> 00:33:05.760 Evan: The parallels between English culture European culture and other folk cultures around the world was just all the same, and so it was a great opportunity to get all these folks together.00:33:06.660 –> 00:33:21.240 Evan: To you know to do this to bring the world to Main Street in Waynesville so 1984 was the first festival he had six-seven groups, I think, from around the world, Europe.00:33:21.900 –> 00:33:36.930 Evan: Asia, Africa, and South America, who came here and stayed with local audience day with local audience members and got together and dance for one another, they all realize.00:33:37.980 –> 00:33:43.800 Evan: stuff's all on the phone we all experienced this it's not that different it doesn't matter what color your skin is it doesn't matter.00:33:44.970 –> 00:33:50.550 Evan: What language do you speak there are things that cross all, yeah and that's the coolest thing about folk culture than.00:33:51.180 –> 00:34:08.790 Joseph McElroy: I was you know I got to see that the one I think I think in the first year back then yeah I love food for many years yeah I just I was just graduated from Duke and coming back and got the experience it before I head to head off to my career.00:34:09.960 –> 00:34:12.870 Evan: More than I do that's what were the two.00:34:13.230 –> 00:34:24.480 Joseph McElroy: I grew up with it yeah so I mean now I mean I think back then, it was just in Haywood County right is, I think I think it was at the stamping grounds right the first few.00:34:26.280 –> 00:34:28.770 Evan: yeah you stamping ground was historic.00:34:28.800 –> 00:34:31.170 Joseph McElroy: For performances it.00:34:31.470 –> 00:34:39.690 Joseph McElroy: started out the software now, which is about you know about three quarters, I mean less than half a mile away from the metal Arc where I'm sitting right now.00:34:40.170 –> 00:34:42.810 Joseph McElroy: So it was easy for me to walk up there and go to.00:34:45.600 –> 00:34:52.290 Joseph McElroy: But now, what is it it's in cities, all over the smoky reasons and as far east as hickory is that still the truth, the case.00:34:52.950 –> 00:34:57.540 Evan: A little bit changed, as you may know, Koba changed everything and.00:34:58.890 –> 00:35:07.590 Evan: So the festivals, in the past, the idea was to bring dancers from around the world to bring them to Waynesville as a central point.00:35:07.860 –> 00:35:23.430 Evan: And then to take that culture, cultural Gatorade and spread it out, you know hickory you know even down in the South Carolina but all you know counties all around North Carolina and Tennessee and those things so.00:35:24.660 –> 00:35:36.120 Evan: it's gotten hard to bring in international groups, especially since covid and so the festival over the years, became smaller just by necessity.00:35:36.570 –> 00:35:46.140 Evan: So this year we're focusing strictly on Haywood county and a lot in Maggie that so half of the festival is going to be down here in.00:35:46.590 –> 00:36:00.450 Evan: In Waynesville downtown and also the food friendship Center and hazelwood and then the other two performances are going to be at the magic valley festival ground which is probably another half a mile away from the song.00:36:01.590 –> 00:36:03.510 Evan: Beautiful as we just out there today.00:36:04.380 –> 00:36:12.120 Joseph McElroy: But actually very close to each other we're only half a mile from the festival grounds so we're all in with you guys on that yeah.00:36:13.380 –> 00:36:17.430 Joseph McElroy: yeah yeah you got to staging ground here, if you want to take advantage of it.00:36:19.170 –> 00:36:23.250 Joseph McElroy: yeah worry, we got a nice little pavilion for small three cursor shows.00:36:24.360 –> 00:36:25.320 Evan: To get an idea.00:36:25.680 –> 00:36:31.200 Joseph McElroy: yeah right yeah no I mean that I'm always a big believer in creating tastes before you create something.00:36:31.800 –> 00:36:42.030 Joseph McElroy: Do the big one, because it gets people all involved in stuff like that, but yeah This must be a logistical nightmare, because you bring in all these people from all over the world, and you have to house them.00:36:43.350 –> 00:36:44.760 Joseph McElroy: How do you manage all that.00:36:45.510 –> 00:36:56.940 Evan: So, again this year wasn't too hard, well, it is it, no it's a logistical nightmare that's fair, I think I have it easier than a lot of the festivals, in the past, and the fact that.00:36:57.390 –> 00:37:04.830 Evan: We don't have a lot of international groups, this year, so we haven't had to get folks to help with visas or anything like that we have.00:37:05.250 –> 00:37:14.670 Evan: International groups from within the US so we've got an Irish group coming from Chicago we've got a bit and swelling group coming from Miami we have.00:37:16.200 –> 00:37:30.270 Evan: A Ukrainian group promo and they're going to be driving down from Wisconsin all authentic you know of their country, but people who are just living here in the US now practicing it.00:37:32.070 –> 00:37:38.340 Evan: We also are going to be running a big old hotel that weekend, we have a lot of people staying with us at the folkmoot friendship Center.00:37:38.400 –> 00:37:44.190 Joseph McElroy: Oh that's right you guys got a big old building there right, so you can set up some campground sort of thing in there right.00:37:45.030 –> 00:37:55.230 Evan: we've actually got some books, probably a little better than army style last got a great big cafeteria here we're going to be feeding everybody trying to use local produce.00:37:56.250 –> 00:38:02.070 Evan: local food makes sure that everybody gets good, healthy meals before they go out and dance and perform so.00:38:04.080 –> 00:38:06.690 Evan: yeah everybody stay in here it's going to be a hootenanny.00:38:07.350 –> 00:38:12.930 Joseph McElroy: When you go international good I put in a plug for wife she has a travel agency, they do all that stuff.00:38:14.610 –> 00:38:16.110 Joseph McElroy: Oh yeah big time.00:38:16.890 –> 00:38:17.610 Evan: right there.00:38:17.640 –> 00:38:26.670 Joseph McElroy: that's great services that just do that all that's All they do is manage that the story I tell is that when we first got together, we wanted to go to.00:38:28.110 –> 00:38:40.500 Joseph McElroy: All of a sudden, we decided like at the beginning of the week, they wanted to go down to cartoon to mardi gras well essentially mardi gras it's called a carnival and that.00:38:41.280 –> 00:38:42.360 Joseph McElroy: Right, where she's from.00:38:42.390 –> 00:38:43.140 Evan: 20 years ago.00:38:43.410 –> 00:38:53.910 Joseph McElroy: yeah and turns out my passport is expired, but she arranged everything and within three days I get everything I was.00:38:54.990 –> 00:39:02.640 Joseph McElroy: Within you know from the moment of the decision to be another plane going down there were three days so but anyway.00:39:03.810 –> 00:39:04.620 Joseph McElroy: things can be done.00:39:06.300 –> 00:39:15.330 Joseph McElroy: But let's talk about we're talking about yeah I'm interested in funding your nonprofit, but this has to be costly and where's your funding coming from.00:39:16.950 –> 00:39:25.770 Evan: Well it's got you know the Organization has changed over time and one of the things that I am very proud of.00:39:27.750 –> 00:39:35.220 Evan: And I've grown up in this we don't see too many nonprofits that are entrepreneurial or as entrepreneurial as we are.00:39:35.730 –> 00:39:45.210 Evan: So that's how I learned a long time ago that nonprofits need to generate income to survive their business, just like any other business.00:39:45.840 –> 00:39:57.810 Evan: So some things that we're doing here at the folk move friendship Center, which is a 40,000 square foot historic school digging in 1935 built by the WPA Thank you, Roosevelt.00:39:59.490 –> 00:40:19.470 Evan: We have a large selection of school rooms former classrooms that are being rented out by some very talented artists, so we have really great rates, where people can come in rent the space use it as a gallery but also use it as a.00:40:20.640 –> 00:40:36.780 Evan: As a workspace or workshop, if you will, so we've got weaver's painters, we have glass artists costumes and and jewelers who rent space here and that helps to bring in income for us to.00:40:36.840 –> 00:40:45.420 Joseph McElroy: keep this building, but don't you ever been when i've got a tour of that place of a couple years ago and they were going to put it, a huge coffee shop there was somebody who do that, that that happened.00:40:46.080 –> 00:40:47.040 Joseph McElroy: Or to Coca Cola.00:40:47.220 –> 00:40:48.330 Joseph McElroy: Coca Cola and.00:40:48.330 –> 00:40:49.950 Evan: no idea what happened sounds like a good.00:40:49.950 –> 00:40:51.270 Joseph McElroy: idea Oh, they were gonna.00:40:51.300 –> 00:40:55.920 Joseph McElroy: They had planted has there been some remember, they were put into this like big coffee.00:40:57.060 –> 00:41:04.380 Joseph McElroy: shop and look it was gonna be really interesting there's a there's some place there that's a big open space, probably the previous cafeteria.00:41:05.640 –> 00:41:07.080 Joseph McElroy: Absolutely yeah so.00:41:08.700 –> 00:41:09.120 Joseph McElroy: yeah.00:41:09.450 –> 00:41:13.440 Evan: Well, another cool thing about is one of our renters is the soar Academy.00:41:13.800 –> 00:41:28.140 Evan: Which is experiential outdoor education group similar to say an outward bound, but actually that school is based here at folkman friendship Center so half of our building is a school nine months out of the year.00:41:28.920 –> 00:41:43.230 Evan: For kids who are you know the benefit from outside of classroom educational so they're all out in the woods learning survival and you know learning how to cook for themselves and learning how to you know.00:41:43.830 –> 00:41:57.360 Evan: To go to Costa Rica and speak Spanish and experiential education is where it's at you know really great program that they're here to and they use our cafeteria so that's, the problem is that that's why we don't have a coffee shop is they use that.00:41:58.470 –> 00:41:59.100 Joseph McElroy: I see.00:41:59.730 –> 00:42:00.030 Evan: That there.00:42:01.980 –> 00:42:17.280 Joseph McElroy: You got a lot of wonderful stuff going on, and you know, one of the things that I do is i've become something of an expert memorable tourism experiences and that's how i've you know def triple the size of the the meadowlark motel and what we're doing yeah focusing on.00:42:17.550 –> 00:42:26.670 Joseph McElroy: Just how do you how do you stimulate flash flashbulb memories that people keep coming back and it creates brand loyalty and revisit intention.00:42:27.270 –> 00:42:36.690 Joseph McElroy: there's a whole part of that academic studies about cultural and heritage, tourism, which I think you should be aware of, because there is.00:42:37.080 –> 00:42:46.680 Joseph McElroy: A way to really trigger that to bring people back again and again again and i'm gonna send that to you because I think what you're doing it's it's actually perfect.00:42:48.810 –> 00:42:49.140 Joseph McElroy: So.00:42:49.590 –> 00:42:50.310 Evan: The partnership.00:42:50.910 –> 00:42:55.170 Joseph McElroy: yeah well hey i'm always looking for the angle, you know what I mean.00:42:59.010 –> 00:43:08.130 Joseph McElroy: So we got to take another break and then we'll come back finish up with you know things that you might want to talk about things that you've learned about Western North Carolina while you've been here.00:43:08.670 –> 00:43:11.610 Evan: it's cool man, thank you, Joseph sounds good yeah.00:43:14.280 –> 00:43:14.880 www.TalkRadio.nyc: hey everybody.00:43:14.910 –> 00:43:25.500 www.TalkRadio.nyc: Its cami D, the nonprofit sector can actually coming at you from my attic each week here on talk radio dot nyc I host the program will advocate for nonprofits in Caucus.00:43:26.790 –> 00:43:37.620 www.TalkRadio.nyc: And it's my focus on helping to amplify their message tell their story listen each week at 10am Eastern standard time at 11am Eastern standard time right here on talk radio dot nyc.00:43:41.310 –> 00:43:44.040 www.TalkRadio.nyc: You may have 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together to learn educate and advocate join us live every Wednesday at 2pm and talk radio dot nyc.00:44:40.560 –> 00:44:47.040 www.TalkRadio.nyc: To talk radio nyc at www talk radio dot nyc now broadcasting.00:45:12.270 –> 00:45:20.370 Joseph McElroy: howdy this is Joseph Franklin McElroy back with the gateway to the smokies my guest Evan hat so Evan.00:45:22.260 –> 00:45:27.930 Joseph McElroy: Talking about you just getting your feet underneath here three months three and a half months into your new position.00:45:28.440 –> 00:45:39.600 Joseph McElroy: but can you become the great progress and prognosticator tell me what's going to happen, the rest of this year in 2023 and beyond, if you've been able to form a vision of the future of the phone booth.00:45:40.950 –> 00:45:47.130 Evan: A that's a great question, you know as far as vision.00:45:47.820 –> 00:46:03.090 Evan: I have to defer to the board of directors on that they set the vision for the organization and they've done a great thing, and that is to make this Center the folk new friendships Center an inclusive organization for the arts and cultural exchange it's simple.00:46:04.380 –> 00:46:12.900 Evan: that's simple well simple but it's not easy one, so several ways that we're going to be doing on by making this photo booth.00:46:13.500 –> 00:46:27.180 Evan: Summer fest smaller festival then that's going to enable us to do some different kinds of programming in the fall and spring, so we can do other short smaller festivals, with different things could be beer could be food, it could be.00:46:28.890 –> 00:46:37.950 Evan: It could be strictly dance, it could be, you know a number of things any ideas i'm happy to hear about in addition we've got the.00:46:39.000 –> 00:46:46.770 Evan: We have monthly concerts through folk mood live, and those are here at the Queen auditorium 235 seat.00:46:47.100 –> 00:47:02.010 Evan: theater right here at folk move friendship Center actually we've been working with a friend of yours, Mr Bob plot, but the other mountain memories, which are themed shows where storytellers and musicians come together explore.00:47:02.820 –> 00:47:16.560 Evan: You know tributes to pass musicians, or you know themes such as you know, it could be civil war history of food or anything but really great idea that came from Bob plot, and my plane, really, really strong stuff.00:47:18.060 –> 00:47:25.200 Evan: I know that August is going to be really busy i've got an incredible Ethiopian string band coming in September 3.00:47:26.250 –> 00:47:36.270 Evan: That are not to be fooled with her name is quote unquote we have country music songwriters nights and we on August 23.00:47:37.470 –> 00:47:46.410 Evan: Forgive me, I may not have that date right, but all those all those things are going to be lined up we're going to be doing some great holiday performances it's basically stay busy.00:47:48.660 –> 00:48:01.950 Evan: keep the lights on and keep the money coming in and then write grants for special projects that you know we really want to see happen it's just staying busy it's like that duck you know it doesn't look busy on the top but underneath his pattern.00:48:02.370 –> 00:48:12.090 Joseph McElroy: I mean you got me you got a beautiful facility, and I mean you got a great history, and you know I know that there's been some cutbacks and.00:48:12.750 –> 00:48:18.210 Joseph McElroy: You know, in certain political organizations here and in the in the area, but.00:48:18.990 –> 00:48:37.020 Joseph McElroy: i'm 100% behind building to helping you guys build that up because it's a great cultural resource that people should get the opportunity to take advantage of it yeah and i'm 100% behind you, I think it's a fabulous same.00:48:38.160 –> 00:48:39.270 Evan: thing going to man.00:48:40.020 –> 00:48:41.310 Joseph McElroy: hey listen.00:48:41.460 –> 00:48:42.390 yeah metal.00:48:43.590 –> 00:48:58.890 Joseph McElroy: The Middle Arc is yeah it's it's about you know celebrating the mountain heritage and creating memories for people yeah and yeah and starting adventures and but you know i'm an artist, as well as a businessman.00:49:00.420 –> 00:49:02.610 Joseph McElroy: Oh yeah I actually you know this, if you.00:49:02.610 –> 00:49:13.470 Joseph McElroy: Can if you come to the speakeasy you'll see a lot of my artwork on the walls my early artwork from when I was a student there's a lot of you know, because it's a speakeasy there's a lot of news.00:49:14.940 –> 00:49:16.440 Joseph McElroy: But yeah but.00:49:18.840 –> 00:49:32.550 Joseph McElroy: I was as a painter but you know where I got this unknown I created I created on I created online performance art, where you physically and interact with computer and and doing it and i'm actually in some museums, for that.00:49:33.180 –> 00:49:33.390 Evan: Oh.00:49:34.350 –> 00:49:50.700 Joseph McElroy: that's fantastic oh yeah yeah so but yeah back in the audience late 90s and audio doing that it was great I got a lot of attention, but it didn't make a bit of money, because nobody knew how to buy a digital PR for this thing, so I ended up becoming a businessman.00:49:51.900 –> 00:49:58.320 Joseph McElroy: I still do a lot of interesting art stuff like that, but it's now an APP is an avocation not a vocation.00:50:00.060 –> 00:50:00.960 vocation was.00:50:02.580 –> 00:50:03.060 Joseph McElroy: that's.00:50:03.390 –> 00:50:12.960 Evan: that's what I thought folklore was to essentially I try to make a living out of what other people consider a hobby so it may not be the smartest thing in the world, but I think.00:50:12.990 –> 00:50:14.610 Evan: A link what content.00:50:15.810 –> 00:50:23.160 Joseph McElroy: Well, I think I think you know, I think that cultural institutions and hospitality has share thing where.00:50:23.610 –> 00:50:28.200 Joseph McElroy: You can actually express your creativity right and the things that you're interested in.00:50:28.770 –> 00:50:38.640 Joseph McElroy: yeah so I'm expressing my creativity, through hospitality, you know, in terms of how you design the rooms, how you design you know, the thing the amenities, and things you're giving people so.00:50:39.240 –> 00:50:49.050 Joseph McElroy: You know so you've been here Bo and Haywood county now for about three months, and besides folk mood what's your favorite?00:50:50.010 –> 00:50:57.930 Joseph McElroy: Somebody coming visit here what you, what do you recommend them go do or go eat or something that you think is a good tip for somebody new coming here.00:50:59.310 –> 00:51:16.770 Evan: Man I'm shameless self-promotion I love pumpkin beers great Mexican food I first had in Asheville amazing stuff the magic galley I've been there, I can't stop myself I keep going back and eating their fresh seafood.00:51:17.040 –> 00:51:26.130 Evan: seafood place yeah really great, and of course the Haywood county smokehouse hey we smoke glasses remarkably good place as well.00:51:28.620 –> 00:51:34.380 Evan: You know I would say sit on a porch somewhere and watch the sunset it's probably the best thing you can do in this county.00:51:35.580 –> 00:51:40.620 Evan: You know and or get up really early and have some coffee and watch the sunrise get either one.00:51:41.790 –> 00:51:42.150 Evan: and00:51:42.210 –> 00:51:42.540 Evan: that's.00:51:42.570 –> 00:51:50.850 Evan: Probably my favorite thing to do, since I've been here just sit down and take a breath.00:51:53.130 –> 00:51:58.410 Joseph McElroy: The relaxation, the people sit back and just enjoy the natural beauty here people love that.00:51:58.950 –> 00:52:10.410 Joseph McElroy: I mean a lot of it, you know we have a lot of front Porches here right because we're classically and motel so that's a lot of people just come just to sit out and have a party on the stoop.00:52:12.450 –> 00:52:13.830 Joseph McElroy: yeah we're just looking at it out and.00:52:14.580 –> 00:52:15.990 Joseph McElroy: talk with friends and.00:52:16.290 –> 00:52:22.320 Joseph McElroy: sit in a rocking chair and enjoy the country limited try this you know.00:52:24.240 –> 00:52:29.160 Evan: Gathering spot the stoop or the porch that's anyway and share.00:52:30.150 –> 00:52:38.010 Joseph McElroy: That well you know what you know growing up that was it the how the cupboard porch out front with rocking chairs sometimes people would couch the couch out there.00:52:39.210 –> 00:52:53.040 Joseph McElroy: And then enjoying life so is there some shout out some things you have to recognize our ways you want people to look you up or look at what you're doing or what what what're the things that people can find out more information.00:52:54.150 –> 00:53:04.770 Evan: Well, if you want to get to know your future ancestors I would definitely talk about going to my website and narrate project, which is a business I'm still running and still love to do.00:53:05.820 –> 00:53:22.770 Evan: Just this week, I interviewed a former provost at the University of North Carolina who has lived an absolutely fascinating life and just got able to talk to people and learn about them, I tell you there's wisdom all around folks it's around everybody and.00:53:24.000 –> 00:53:25.470 Evan: it's a great way to get to know your people.00:53:27.180 –> 00:53:31.710 Evan: shout out we love orchard coffee downtown.00:53:33.000 –> 00:53:38.760 Evan: run by one of our board members Cabo tice good folks down there, I wanted to say hello.00:53:39.960 –> 00:53:43.470 Evan: All the people I've met you know in this area.00:53:44.760 –> 00:53:56.160 Evan: I guess you know Bob plot being one of them, the gentleman and a scholar and really good, as you know, good gentleman work with I guess my biggest shout out would be to the staff.00:53:56.700 –> 00:54:13.110 Evan: Here at folk mood USA beth Harvey Mike McClain Jody Nichols Vivian pompous and Brett Pinkston all of who are just incredible people to work with.00:54:13.530 –> 00:54:13.950 Joseph McElroy: And so what's.00:54:14.760 –> 00:54:16.470 Joseph McElroy: what's the website, by the way.00:54:17.070 –> 00:54:18.150 Evan: folks move.org.00:54:18.660 –> 00:54:20.040 Evan: Okay sounds good.00:54:21.030 –> 00:54:22.050 Joseph McElroy: Facebook page too.00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:37.590 Evan: yeah there's Facebook I'm not a social media person I'm sorry yeah there's definitely you can search Facebook and hit folk maybe the USA all that stuff on social media is fantastic and that's all because of beth Harvey and the work that she does.00:54:38.790 –> 00:54:51.390 Evan: You know, it helps to be surrounded by people who are smart engaged engaging and dedicated yeah really helpful.00:54:51.750 –> 00:54:57.150 Joseph McElroy: Well, I wanna, thank you for being on the show today it's been a real pleasure, we should definitely have more conversations after this.00:54:59.040 –> 00:55:08.580 Joseph McElroy: Okay cool hey this podcast is on fate is on the talk radio dot nyc network, which is a live network of podcasts.00:55:08.910 –> 00:55:09.540 Evan: I recommend you.00:55:09.930 –> 00:55:16.710 Joseph McElroy: Take a look at everybody take a look at it and find some there's small business there are all sorts of things.00:55:17.370 –> 00:55:29.790 Joseph McElroy: it's also streamed live on facebook@facebook.com slash gateway to the smokies podcast right and it's the all the episodes are on.00:55:30.480 –> 00:55:42.060 Joseph McElroy: smokies adventure calm you'll find a link at the top of the gateway to smoke this podcast and you will also see the transcripts and other related information there on each of the different episodes.00:55:43.170 –> 00:55:48.180 Joseph McElroy: I actually run another podcast on this network called wise content creates wealth, which is about a.00:55:48.990 –> 00:56:03.570 Joseph McElroy: Marketing and things like that if you're if you like, that that's on Fridays from noon until one, but this podcast is every Tuesday from six to seven, and I look forward to seeing you next week and everybody bye bye.00:56:04.860 –> 00:56:05.640 Evan: bye Thank you.

Evan You's Twitter - https://twitter.com/youyuxiEvan You's Website - https://evanyou.me/Evan You's GitHub - https://github.com/yyx990803Become a Sponsor to Evan You - https://github.com/sponsors/yyx990803Vue.js Twitter - https://twitter.com/vuejsVue.js Website - vuejs.orgVite Twitter - https://twitter.com/vite_jsAnthony Fu's Website - https://antfu.me/Anthony Fu's GitHub - https://github.com/antfuTaylor Otwell's Twitter - https://twitter.com/taylorotwellTim Urban: Inside the mind of a master procrastinator | TED - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arj7oStGLkUWhy Procrastinators Procrastinate - https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrastinate.htmlTailwind UI - https://tailwindui.com/ 

In this episode of the Modern Web Podcast, Evan You, Creator of Vue.js provides updates about the current state of and future road maps for the popular Vue framework. 2021 was an eventful year for Vue, following the release of Vue3 in September of 2020. They discuss new features in Vue3 as well as the community feedback the team received and how they responded, and the development of Vite, including the challenges that the team faced as they integrated the build tool with the core library. They also talk about the plans for Vue2 moving forward, and what to expect for the future of Vue3, including Vue3.3!   Guest: Evan You, Creator of Vue.js (@yuyuxi)   Host: Simone Cuomo, Software Architect at This Dot Labs (@Zelig880)   Sponsored by HARMAN & This Dot Labs.

In this episode, we take a look at the question Can AI Be Used to Automate the Mundane? Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So welcome, I am excited to bring into the show today someone that it's taken me several times trying to get to this, busy busy guy. This is Evan Ryan. Evan, I hope I said your name right, right. Because I've said some people's names wrong. It's not Yvonne right or not right on? Is it Evan Ryan? Right? Evan It is Evan Ryan. Yeah, you got it in the right order. Most of the time, it's in the opposite order to flip it around. Grant Right. Um, founders CEO, King, of Teammate AI, right. Evan I just tried to go by founder. Okay. Grant Awesome. All right. Tell us a bit about yourself, Evan, what's brought you to this point. And anyway, thanks for joining the show. All right. Let me stop talking. Go ahead. Evan Well, Grant, thanks for having me. We were talking before we started recording, I just hit it off from the first second, at least in my opinion, I'm having a wonderful time. So really with me, I didn't really notice this. But throughout my entire childhood, I really had zero tolerance for boring stuff. I was somebody who just really likes doing fun things. And I like doing things that are that are entertaining, that are challenging, that are fascinating, that are motivating. But I don't like doing things that are boring. And I will basically do anything that I can to avoid doing boring stuff. And of course, now Hindsight is 2020. But that's sort of how I view a lot of my childhood. Well, in 2016, I went to a conference where they had this guy by the name of Jeremy Howard. And at the time, or a year or two prior, he was the number one ranked AI researcher in the world. He was talking about all this stuff that you could do with AI. And he, he mentioned that he had this company that could correctly diagnose cancer from MRIs and CT scans. Cool better than a team of board certified doctors. Oh, this isn't 2016. Yeah, so I was just about to graduate from college. I was thinking that oh my gosh, like, this is just the coolest thing I've ever heard. I basically went into AI the next day. Did you really? Wow. Yeah, it was it was really sort of powerful and transformative. Over the next couple of years of sort of iterating around well, what what do I really want to do inside of AI? You know, how do I want to define AI? First of all, there's sort of no definition that everybody can agree upon. I really found that, you know, I hate doing boring stuff. I bet a lot of other people hate doing boring stuff, too. Yeah, yeah. So and so now we all know the pattern there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And what I've found is really interesting is, you know, one of the biggest conversation topics around AI right now is will AI take all of our jobs? Grant Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I hear that so many times. Yes. Evan I mean, there are like so many ways to answer that with the answer, in my opinion, being No. But what I found is really exciting is when I bring people into the creative process about how can they automate the mundane, the boring, repeatable on their days, they're so excited, like the first time in a while that they felt like, wow, the future is so much bigger than my past. So for the last several years, we've been automating, we've been automating tasks and automating processes for small and medium sized businesses. Grant So let me back up. So you hear this guy speak. You're like AI is the place to go. Your passion is let me take boring out of life. So you're leveraging AI to do that to remove the boring. I remember my dad is really what got me into the, into the technology industry. He was in it if you can believe it, right? So he was like one of the early early pioneers in some of this stuff. And he I remember him using the phrase Boolean shift a lot. He would always talk like, oh, technology is a Boolean shift. And I'm like, What are you talking about? What's a Boolean shift, you know? But this is kind of a Boolean shift with AI something, it's going to totally replace us. But in fact, I think it's a shift to the right, where it starts to automate more and more capabilities. It does require us to re retool. But that's good. Because every big shift, you know, throughout our whole economic history, right, as a country, and as innovation continues to grow, we have to keep shifting to the right terms of the skill sets that are important and critical. So I don't see it as, as this big day AI is gonna come take over, and we're all gonna sit around and become people like on E. What is it Wally, that movie Wally? Right, where they sit around doing nothing? Right, I don't think is that, but I do think it is a shift in terms of the capabilities that will bring and therefore we'll get skilled up in other areas. What are your thoughts on that? Evan Well, I have a question first before, before I answer that, do you have a memory of when you were a child, where you first saw technology, do something and you're like, holy, holy smokes. Grant I do it was that this will highlight the age difference between you and I, it was my, my dad worked in this. So there used to be a competitor to IBM. They're called Control Data Corp, and my dad worked for them. He'd worked on some of the big mainframe systems. And I remember one time, he took me into one of their big mainframe centers, right, and we walk into this room and the fans are running. And the big computers are, and the disk, you know, the tape drive is going, you know, like, just like you see on the old movies, right? And the big disk drives worrying. And my dad sits down and starts coding some things on it. And the computer starts interacting with me saying my name and helped me, you know, asking me questions. And I remember leaning up to and going, this is what I'm gonna do. I don't know everything that just happened there. But I want to be a part of this. So yes, that that was my technology origin story. Yeah. Evan Yeah. For me. So outside of seeing this, like this was years ago, when I was like a small child. I remember my best friend was sending out invitations to a fourth of July, a fourth of July party in the United States. And, and he mailmerge at like age eight, e mail merge, like 500 contacts. Oh, that's everything that is just insane. Like, as incredible as mail merging. And AJ at AJ. Also, like, what is this thing? mailmerge? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's so fun to like, kind of think about, you know, there's this like, one time where at some point, you're like, I wonder what else it can do? This is just the beginning. Yeah. But to answer your question, you know, will we will we all end up just kind of like sitting around or being artists all day? I don't think so. The example that I use is, you know, right now you and I are talking over zoom. It took me three clicks in order to get into our zoom meeting. Right? And so what if I went, what if we went back to the 1950s. And we said that in 70 years, you're going to be able to talk to virtually anybody in the world, you'll be able to see their face, the audio quality will be crystal clear. And I'll cost you essentially nothing. But all 1.5 million telephone switchboard, switchboard operators will lose their jobs. Grant Yeah, yeah, it's it's true. Yeah, that Yeah, right. Yeah, no, people like, like, There's no way. Evan Right, and, and so there's always been this sort of technological destruction that has taken place. Even back when we humans created the waterwheel. And now you didn't have as many people moving water to generate power generate electricity, or when we created ladders, and, you know, there are all sorts of different pieces of technology that we've had, over the last several 1000 years that have changed the way that we worked. This is just another one, I think it's a bigger shift than then some of the other ones. But, you know, the printing press did the same thing. There are all sorts of people that were just writing books, they were writing the Bible over and over and over and over again. Well, they lost their job pretty darn fast. Yet we have more people on the planet than ever before, and more people are employed than ever. Grant To do this. I remember one of the startups that I was involved with earlier in my career in Silicon Valley, we're trying to solve the problem of we want to be able to allow software engineers and designers to design systems remotely over the Internet, right. And so in order to do that, we have some some design tools, but we got to make that accessible and you need to be able to manipulate it remotely. Right. This is before there's a lot of big fat network pipes. You know, you know, everyone's got high bandwidth, right. So we were trying to figure out how to get this to work. We ended up getting it to work, but the cost was prohibitive. Right Just so dang grim. So when I think about the progress of technology, it's lots of trying over and over again until you get to this point where enough of the complexity can be abstracted away so that ultimately the end user sees this simplicity enough to say it's adoptable for both ease of use as well as cost perspective. I think we're right there. They I, I think we're doing similar thing, right to go through the same round, which is, can I take some techniques that are advanced that have some value, but you don't have to have massive data science background in order to get the benefits from that, and I see that shift taking place where more and more of it can then become accessible to others? As the cost drops dramatically? Evan I've seen similar things, I I couldn't agree more. You know, I think AI is sort of one of those things that for a decade or two was promised but under delivered, no, yeah. And now it's so it's like it's coming in with a vengeance. And the tools that are being made are super intuitive. The use cases that are being documented, and copied and repeated are ones that affect a lot of people. And I think people are really opening their minds to the idea that they don't have to do things the same way that they always have, just because that's how it's always been done. So I think it's kind of a combination of a huge mindset shift. But also just the tools are flat out better than they've ever been before. And they're finally usable to the point where you can automate things and you can create API's with button clicks instead of with raw code. Grant Yeah, yeah. Which is, which is fascinating. I think it's bringing an order of magnitude capability, and will continue to do that, to the kinds of problems that we can solve it. And it's just, I think, at the crux of it right in others is you look to the future, if you can continue to provide this time to this kind of computational power. And add that in the future to things like quantum, when we start blending both of those, I think the kinds of problems we can solve becomes quite large. But let me pull it back to tell me about the problems you're specifically solving with teammate AI. So So you got into this space, you're looking to go solve some problems with AI, you want to make things simple, what are you making simple? Evan You know, we really love to help entrepreneurial companies, and primarily companies where the executive team really wants to grow, they really would love to grow, they'd love to grow five or 10x, and the next decade or two decades, or even shorter, but they can't bear the idea of doing it while radically increasing their payroll. Right. And the most common complaint that we hear is not you know, I have the wrong team or my team doesn't do great work. It's that my team is underutilized because they have too much stuff on their plate. And so what we really try to automate the problems that we try to solve, are really helping these team members helping these employees identify what are the things that you do in a day that you hate the most, let's not automate the stuff that you love, let's automate the stuff that you hate. And then we'll figure out together how we can automate this so that you never have to deal with it again. And so we do that with with companies, basically, across every industry. The the question, the second question that I get the most often is, what industries does AI work in? And my answer is always well, you know, AI is a little like electricity, like, sure there's the electric company. But every every company was benefited. And every industry was benefited by electricity. And it's kind of a similar thing. Yeah, you know, there's sort of no gift that you can give people that's more valuable than their time, in my opinion. Grant What would be some use cases that you're applying it to? Is it? Is it things like bookkeeping, is it, you know, mundane, you know, administrative tasks? Or is it in other areas that you're applying AI? Evan So every company is a little different? I mean, of course, there's like bookkeeping and accounts receivable, and how can we send invoices out of our ERP smoother or submit website forms for invoicing smoother. But there's also a lot of reporting, sort of data collection, data crunching and then putting that into a human readable format. That way, people aren't in charge of trying to figure out what the data says. Instead, the computer tells you what the most important things are to look for. We use AI to write newspaper articles, write and publish newspaper articles for media outlets across the country. Regardless of your feelings of the media, it costs too much money in order to be able to write an article especially for info journalism, like what happened in the local sporting events. So we're doing that all across the country and all across the world, all the way to multi day processes where maybe We're using machine vision to look at images and see, well, are there any defects in the products that we're working with right now? If there are defects, what are the defects and let's report back to the supplier, let's report it back to whoever's responsible in order to be able to get that quality control, like up to speed and up to where we needed to be. So we do the boring in the mundane like accounts receivable, we also do the really sexy and complex machine vision. And we're reporting back with here. Here's the percentage of products that you shipped us, for example, that that were manufactured properly or are up to spec. Grant That's quite a, that's quite a wide range of use cases. That's, that's amazing. Are you building your machine vision work off of the Open CV material or your you did this all by hand? Evan We use Fast AI's library, which Fast AI was the not for profit that was founded by Jeremy Howard. So basically, Jeremy was telling me in this conference, you know, here's all the great things that you can do about AI, by the way, I have a free and open course. And we found that their library is just absolutely unbelievable. So we'll try as hard as we can to be able to, to be able to build it from scratch. And the reason for that we originally did not try to do that we originally tried to use a lot of the open source. Yeah. But the reason was really interesting. It was that, especially when, when the process that we were automating wasn't related to customer acquisition, lead generation. Yeah, what was happening a lot of times was our was our clients who would get this new capability called this AI that saving, you know, hours or days per week in some cases, and they'd say something to the effect of, you know, everybody else in our industry faces the same problem. Could we license this to everybody else in our industry? Wow. Well, now they had this old legacy business, that they flipped into a software as a service business. And we realized really fast that we that we had to be able to make sure that our solution scaled to more than just one user. Mm hmm. Grant Amazing. So what's been some of the outcomes, you've noticed now that you've been out doing this across a range of companies, what, what's been the impact to them? Evan What's most exciting for me is that all companies are unique, yet all companies are the same. So they all have product delivery, they all have accounting, and bookkeeping, they all have sales and customer acquisition, they all have customer service. And so they all have these sort of functions, that interplay really nicely together. But largely, they're the same. The real differentiator, among a lot of companies is things like their supply chain, their product and their product delivery. So being able to help a wide swath of companies get clarity surrounding, you know, AI isn't just for Silicon Valley. It's not just for Tesla, and Mehta and Apple and Google, right. That's been really exciting. I think that there's a real market shift going on among employees, I think employees really have a smaller and smaller tolerance for doing stuff that's boring and doesn't move the ball forward. And companies are really incentivized right now, to outsource a lot of the work to AI in order to be able to retain their best talent. And so that's been one of the really, really interesting things. I think that's come out of the last six months. Grant Now, I guess I could imagine it would be something like removing them in the mundane so that you can tap into their creative, right, I think that's really sort of what you're after, right? It's try to exploit opportunities to get more creativity from your people. I would imagine in today's market, too, with a lot of attrition taking place and the challenges with hiring, that this also can be beneficial. It's is it part of a play to help people stay in their jobs where you could take some of the mundane out of it, and therefore allow them to do more creative and enjoyable things in their work? Evan It absolutely is. That's actually one of the biggest reasons why a lot of companies decide to work with us right now is because they know that they if it can create a work experience, that's five times better than what it is right now. That key employee might not go looking for an extra $10,000 A year or an extra 20 grand, or for new opportunities just because it doesn't feel like a right fit anymore. And so we're seeing that all the time. We're also seeing on the flip side of it, a lot of companies that are having problems hiring, or they're having problems retaining employees, just overall, maybe they have a 3040 50% attrition rate on new hires in any particular role. They're starting to ask the question, Well, I wonder why. Like, maybe it's us. That's the problem. And it's not them. That's the problem. And so all of those tasks that used to be hired, are now being automated instead. That way they can hire for those more creative and fascinating and motivating roles. I mean, I don't know anybody I don't know anybody who wakes up on a Monday morning looking forward to doing the same stuff they've done for the last five years. Grant Yeah, if they do well, yeah, that's another conversation. But sounds like you use a range of things from RPA to some custom built AI work, you guys have developed is your sort of toolset is that, right? Evan Yeah, whatever it takes to get the job done. A lot of times customers will have specifications. But, you know, Microsoft Power automates a really powerful tool. And there's a lot that you can do with 1000 lines of Python code, right, and with a great AWS or Azure suite. And so we do use, we have a handy and a really kind of wide tool belt. But what we find is that we're using the same tool sort of over and over again, which is really handy, I think, overall, and it makes it so that the tools are getting better over time. Grant They are Yeah, they're definitely getting better. Okay, so for our audience, what would be a call to action for them? If they were wanting to learn more about you and your organization and what you're doing? Evan Yeah, so I think the biggest thing would be head to automation secrets that teammate ai.com, there, you can get a free copy of my new book, AI is your teammate. And really what it does is it kind of helps distill down what are the mindsets necessary in order to be able to use AI in your world, whether you're a business owner and entrepreneur and executive or an employee? And how can you make it happen? You know, there's a lot of sort of how to guides for how do you make automation happen, but I've tend to find that they're all either way too high level, like, AI can only be used for chatbots on your website, or cybersecurity, or they're literally showing you lines of code. And so how can you make it happen, no matter what your level of technical capabilities are? So I would head there, no matter what, get a teammate, or you can get it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or anywhere where you find books. Grant Oh, that's cool. So when you think about a bell curve in terms of the amount of time that someone would commit to working with a group like yourself, what does that look like, you know, the bell curve is or the efforts or the projects you do with them? Is it a two week four week, eight week? What does that look like? Evan I you know, for for relatively small automations. If you're if you're using a tool, like Zapier, for example, that would be two to four weeks. So very, very short, you could wake up this month, you have a lot of stuff on your plate that you hate. And by next quarter, you could have saved 510 20 hours a week, depending on what your job description looks like, all the way to six months to a year depending on if you have a if you have a really complicated sort of project that you need to automate. Grant Gotcha. Gotcha. Very cool. Okay. What questions do you have for me, you said you wanted to ask me some questions before we started? Evan I do want to ask you, yeah, what do you see? You know, so you do it a different type of like a eyes and really what we specialize in? We don't try to do a lot of the predictive the predictive modeling. Yeah. What are you seeing in the marketplace? On the predictive side? Grant Yeah. So on the predictive side, I'm definitely working in that space. Not so much in the CV area, but more in terms of predictive analytics itself. So you know, taking things like oh, how can I? How can I address stockout? problems, right, my supply chain? Or, oh, what can I do to increase sales? That is probably the number one use case that I see. Right, which is, hey, we're just trying to grow the business? And what are the conditions that are driving the best sales situation? Or how can I take costs out of my business? So efficiency plays? That's probably the second sort of style of problems that organizations need to solve. And similar to what you're describing, in all cases, it's Can I do it with the same amount or fewer resources? Right, I can't be adding more resources to this. In most cases, there's this FOMO aspect, which is there's this fear of the unknown, what is it that the AI can see that I can't write, because lots of times our brains are wired to see only just a few factors or variables. And then once we get too many dimensions out, our brain sort of gives out AI really exploits that well. And so casting as wide a net as possible, that makes sense for that business outcome. You're trying to target where it sells or whatever, and letting the AI help you to see all of those all those far reaching variables and pulling that in and saying actually, it's, it's the combination of these other factors as well means that this is when your sales take place. If it's this salesperson, during this time of the month to this particular market. You know, when the weather is clear in San Diego, whatever it might be, right? Those conditions tend to drive higher sales, whatever the situation, it's that watching business owners have that aha moment to go. Oh, okay. And that's, that's real satisfying, because then they go in and start tweaking their business, right, just enough to say, hey, it was worth the effort to discover them. One more thing, while I'm monologuing on this, there's that part. And then there's the other part, which is I find that AI, it can bring so many predictive insights, that it cripples the organization, right? It comes back and says, here's all the drivers, and here's all the factors, but it gives you, you know, 20 of them, and you're like, oh, okay, what am I gonna do with 20? Right? How do I figure and so that's the other key part of what we do, which is, we then say, oh, let's prioritize these into a series of incremental steps that moves the organization one step at a time. Otherwise, people get changed fatigue, right, it's too much to keep trying to, you know, do it all at once. So we take the insights that are predictive, go after those that have the highest probability as it relates to the business outcome, and then just go do one or two of those, and then rebuild, because contacts, you know, business shit, and business drift occurs, data drift occurs. And so you then refactor the the model again and gives you fresh insights. So how's that for a long answer? That's what I'm saying? Evan Well, that's actually you kind of touched on one of the follow ups that I wanted to ask, which is, we spend a lot of our time with the end users with the end employees, it sounds to me like you spend a lot of your time with the C suite. Is that correct? Grant We do, but it depends on the organization. And who's been tasked, in many cases, will we start with a C suite. And I'll tell you why. One of the challenges, I believe, with a lot of the AI platforms today is is the over over focus on model accuracy, right getting a 90% accurate, now, don't get me wrong, the model has got to be, you know, really accurate, but when it's done outside of the context of your business operations, then it means I could end up producing an AI model that's so efficient, that my business is not actually able to deal with or handle it may be bringing me too many deals, such that it actually increases the cost of goods sold, that it actually ends up hurting my business. And so it really needs this combination of a sufficient, efficient model connected to what are my business costs, my operations, my you know, the the amount of resources I have available, and that's why it needs to go a step at a time, right, you just keep going one step at a time to improve or grow it. So sometimes it's with the data, people. But if you do it outside of the context of those business questions, then it tends not to be as effective on the ROI. Evan That's a that's one of the things I was gonna ask, are you seeing that there are sometimes negative consequences where the AI is so good? Yeah, you know, that people either you have a change management problem where people's preconceived notions of why things happened was actually incorrect. And now you have to retrain, or something like that, where, you know, the like what you said, the cost of goods rises so much, because it's so efficient at acquiring new customers or getting more sales, that that the business wasn't ready to scale to that level? Do you see that that happens more often than not? Or is that a sort of a corner case? Grant I don't know, I don't think it's corner case. It's, it's a fair, fair amount of the cases, though, enough to be a worry, right, that if I don't take change management into consideration, as I roll out AI, then then my probabilities of success dropped dramatically that just because I have the insights from Ai, in my opinion, is only 70% of the way there, then you got to get that, you know, last mile and and the last mile is the successful rollout and adoption of this, and sometimes it's a cultural thing you're running into, people are worried, oh, I'm gonna lose my job. Others are like, Oh, this is gonna change my job. And then others are, well, we embrace it. But now we run into a money problem. And the money problem is that our business operations can't handle this adjustment. Or maybe the AI got it wrong, and the business can't handle that adjustment either. Right? Doesn't mean that it's always right. And so in either case, it can have that financial impact. And if we're not, if we're not taming the AI enough in the context of business operations, then it ends up creating a problem. So there's several hurdles after you get just those those predictive insights. Evan Yeah, one of the things that's interesting about hearing hearing your world which your world is just is so radically different than mine, I mean, with us, we have a pretty set, you know, this set of criteria. We're going to automate this process Is this process we've mapped out exactly what the steps are in the process, and then we build a computer to do it. with you what I think is interesting is, I hear all the time, that this concept of what we want to use data to make better decisions. Oh, yeah. And, like, there, I always think, you know, there's part of that that's true. But there's also part of it, that's like, you are thinking that the human should be making a decision right now. Grant I like to view this more as augmented intelligence. I know we say AI. But I think a should be augmented. It's really the state of where the practice is, I think in AI, to say that we're going to give all decision making rights over to some AI model and just blindly trust that I think that's naive in today's AI. Now, you know, they're getting better and better. But I work a lot of organizations where the majority, the AI model is early. And so it's growing, the need for a lot more cognitive support from the humans, to ensure that this thing is naturally moving in a way that is reliable, and truly predictable. And otherwise, I think you could just hand it off and say, I give all all decisioning rights over to the AI, I think that's foolish, you have the ability and need the ability, even after you've deployed an AI model to come back and vote on the impact of that insight. And that's important, because we want to continue to refine the training and retraining of the AI. Hey, what you just shared with me that predictive insight actually didn't pan out, that guidance really needs to come back into the models. Evan Yeah, I think, you know, the AI at the end of the day, like the algorithms, they make a prediction and they make a recommendation, but they never, they never make a decision. Now, humans either a prediction or recommendation, the human needs to make a decision. So the AI can provide all sorts of information, and it can provide recommendations. But But yeah, I don't it's not ready yet to to just understand how the world works and understand where you're going, what your objectives are, and then just say, this is right. It's not it's not quite otherwise. I know. I know, a lot of senior managers who are going to have really bad days. AI can do that. So what are some of your what are some of your sweet spots? What are the things that were the projects where you know, you know, that you can hit it out of the park? Grant Yeah, it's, like I said, it's in medium sized organizations typically trying to solve, you know, a revenue sales problem, right? That's definitely a sweet spot and supply chain areas, right? That's where they're looking to say, Hey, I'm trying to make sure I can, can keep inventory coming in at the right pace or the right rate, which is a serious problem now. But you know, we've also seen it in even in the current talent management shortages that's going on, which is, can I use it to help me understand the probabilities of, you know, certain groups or individuals who are candidates for leaving early right, and the cost and impact to an organization when that happens? Those are the types of use cases where typically we get involved. Those are, those are great questions, for sure. Okay. All right. This has been awesome. Yeah, you haven't. Thank you. Evan This has been great Grant. Grant Yeah, thanks for your questions. Any final statement before we wrap up about Teammate AI? Evan You can grab AI as your teammate on Amazon or at automationsecretsteamai.com. But mostly, I just hope that everybody has a future that's far, far bigger than their past, and far better than their past. Thanks for having me, Grant. Really appreciate this one. Grant Thank you for your time, everybody. Thanks for joining another episode of clique AI radio. And until next time, get some Teammate AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.

ResourcesTaking on Google and Facebook as a Solo Open-Source Founder with Evan You of Vue.js (podcast)Vue MasteryEpisode Picks:Alfy: Mutant Year Zero [Steam][Epic]Luay:Spendee AppMaking $12k by building products with Notion

Amal and Nick load up on coffee for a not-so-vite (lame joke!) conversation with Evan You all about Vite – a batteries included next-generation frontend tooling library. Vite continues to push the ecosystem forward with even stronger defaults, super speedy local development workflows, and a highly extensible universal plugin API. Need we say more?!

On this week's episode, we cover the beloved JavaScript framework Vue.js - Evan You's side project that eventually became a top tier framework among React and Angular. We also go over the recent CSAM news from Apple, Tushy bidets, Privacy virtual wallets, and much more. Welcome to Tech Heads!  

Join us as we talk to Evan You, creator of Vue.js, Vite, VitePress, and a host of other tools.

*This episode is highly visual, as Evan You demo's the Vite platform. Check out JavascriptJam.com for the video. Overtime developers have gotten used to using bundlers, like WebPack, and know the struggle of waiting for long builds, especially as project become more complex. Vite works like a simple file server, but provides many enhancements over native ESM imports to support various features that are typically seen in bundler-based setups. In this episode, You walks us through Vite's impressive capabilities.

Evan You, the creator of Vue.js, and Rich Harris, Graphics Editor at The New York Times and creator of Svelte and Rollup, join hosts Ken Wheeler and Jared Palmer on The Undefined to talk about the future of frontend development.FeaturingEvan You - Twitter, Github, WebsiteRich Harris - Twitter, GithubKen Wheeler – Twitter, GitHub, WebsiteJared Palmer – Twitter, GitHub, WebsiteSponsor: PrismaAs a frontend developer, if you want to become fullstack, you'll find that the hardest part of backend development is working with a database.Prisma is a next-generation ORM and database toolkit that makes working with databases easy and helps frontend developers become fullstack!Visit the prisma-examples repo for lots of ready-to-run starter projects with various frameworks and libraries, like Express, Apollo, NestJS or hapi. If you're a Next.js developer, be sure to visit prisma.io/nextjs to learn more about how easy it is to integrate Prisma in your Next.js apps!Prisma has a very active and welcoming community on Slack and on GitHub where you can find help for any questions about the Prisma ecosystem.Sponsor: G2iIf you're building a new product, G2i is a company that can help you find a developer who can build the first version. G2i is a hiring platform run by engineers that matches you with React, React Native, GraphQL, and mobile engineers who you can trust. Whether you are a new company building your first product or an established company that wants additional engineering help, G2i has the talent you need to accomplish your goals. Go to g2i.co to learn more about what G2i has to offer.ICYMI: The Undefined ShopWe launched an online store! Checkout https://shop.undefined.fm for the dankest swag and accessories. 20% off all items during our Black Friday / Cyber Monday sale.

Last week, we have fetched the 3rd issue from the newsletter where we share articles and resources we find valuable, if you didn't subscribe yet, you can do it from this link. For this episode resources, take a look below

大家好，我是 Leon。我现在在一边听着回放一边写本期简介。可是，难倒我了。本期节目貌似有个主题，但这两个人聊的都是什么呀，东一榔头西一锤子的，害我现在写简介写的挠破了头。（下期简介就好写多了！）总之就一句话吧，我们想重新审视一下：当下以个人形式来维护更新一个属于你自己的网站/空间的必要性。大家好，我是 JJ，我是负责剪辑本集内容的 JJ，因为我们的自我审查，Leon 提到的锤子和榔头……其实还是被迫剪了不少，以至于最后要用 BGM 和所谓的「下期预告」来撑到 50 多分钟，请海涵# 内容提要03:03 · 非常冷不丁地，JJ 要第一次向 Leon 说出关于我台台名的小九九11:00 · 正题开始之前先聊聊 JJ 这个 ID 和头像是怎么来的16:05 · 正式开始「忆往昔」17:20 · 今天要聊的 Landing Page 不是现在意义上的「落地页」23:19 · 重开博客的 Leon 最近又开始用回了古典的 WordPress32:13 · 谈谈 Vue.js 那个纪录片35:13 · Clear 是一个非常别致的妖艳贱货43:33 · Blogger 的时代也许回不来了，但现在还是个好时代# 参考链接JJ 的（已经荒废的）个人博客图月志 6:24JJ 的（也差不多荒废的）在线作品集网站 6:32上次聊个人网站的第 34 期《今时今日设计师还需要独立个人网站吗？》 7:16Leon 最近新翻新的个人博客 9:21阿里巴巴的矢量图标库 Iconfont（一直觉得这名字像面包牌面包一样） 14:32跟 JJ 的域名只差一个「n」的在线服务 IcoMoon.io 14:34搜索引擎优化技术 SEO 16:43Google 成立初期赖以成名的 Page Rank 17:15很多年前 JJ 用 FrontPage 做的「旋转 logo」landing page 18:33Google 的广告服务 AdSense 19:06WordPress 的古腾堡编辑器 23:58古老的中国 UI 设计师门户网站 ChinaUI.com 31:31Vue.js 的纪录片 32:35Vue 的创造者尤雨溪 Evan You 33:13Clear 现在依然可以在 App Store 下载 35:19Evan 做的网页版 Clear 37:57又又又提到了我们聊拉姆斯那期播客 41:29Helvetica 的纪录片41:37马克‧纽森的「铆钉椅」 42:18Ive 和马克纽森合作的莱卡相机 42:58「无需写代码」的网页设计、开发工具 Webflow 44:50# 会员计划在本台官网(Anyway.FM) 注册会员即可 14 天试用 X 轴播放器和催更功能~ 开启独特的播客互动体验，Pro 会员更可加入听众群参与节目讨(hua)论(shui)~

On this episode of if/else, host Mayuko Inoue explores a choice faced by many front-end developers: which JavaScript framework should you use?There are many frameworks available, including Angular, Relay, Next, Aurelia, Svelte, Ember, Meteor, Knockout, Backbone, Node, and Polymer. But we're going to focus on the two most popular ones: React and Vue.js.Mayuko explains the history and philosophy behind these two frameworks, and you'll hear from several developers about their experiences with React and Vue.You'll also meet Al. Al works at a small IoT firm, and is getting back into front-end development after a long hiatus. He has some experience with JavaScript, but wants to take advantage of the efficiency gains of a JavaScript framework. Al has heard about React and Vue, but he hasn't committed to either option. To help Al decide which one will work best for his projects, we've enlisted the help of two industry experts.Cassidy Williams is an instructor and developer at React Training and the director of outreach at cKeys. Erik Hanchett is a senior software engineer at Cerity and the author of the book Vue.js In Action. He is also co-host of the Self Taught or Not podcast.Cassidy and Erik join Mayuko to discuss the guiding principles of each framework, along with their strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to give Al, or anyone else facing a similar decision, the information needed to make a solid choice.if/else is an original podcast by CTO.ai, makers of The Ops Platform. The Ops Platform makes it easy for development teams to create and share workflow automations without leaving the command line. Visit cto.ai/platform to join the beta.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.

John Lindquist asks Evan You when exactly did he become a developer? Evan talks about how the whole thing was a gradual process with no definite "I'm a developer now!" moment. Evan had a degree in art and art history, but he was finding it hard to find work. So Evan went back to school and enrolled in a design and technology program where everyone was forced to learn to code, this is where he first learned Javascript and found great enjoyment in using it.Google's Chrome experiments are what drove Evan to learn Javascript on a deeper level. Evan landed a job at Google Creative Labs after he created and put a portfolio of his prototypes out there once he thought himself to be good at programming. Google Creative Labs were looking for someone who could bring in design and build cool things quickly, they contacted Evan, and things sort of just fell together.Google Creative Labs was where Evan first started his work on Vue. As the project grew, the team started to use Angular 1. it had too many features that they didn't need. Evan also didn't like some of the design decisions that Angular 1 had. So, Evan started to work on a templating library just for his personal use. After six months, in February 2014, he officially released it as Vue.js, putting it out there for others for others to use. Initially, it was just a templating library but as the community grew and more features got requested Vue got built into the framework that it is today, being compared on the same level as React and Angular.Finally, Evan and John discuss Vue's future regarding single file components and proxies. Currently, there are still a lot of problems going with the compile on the fly approach. However, there is a spec being discussed called HTML Modules. Html Imports are getting dropped from the spec. There has been discussion around the HTML Modules spec that looks very similar to what single file components look like on the platform level.Evan plans to refactor Vue to leverage proxies. Currently, when Vue receives data, it will walk through all of its properties and convert them to getter/setters, this has caveats such as not tracking newly added properties when it finishes. Proxies allows them to get rid of these caveats. Proxy traps can track these changes!Transcript"Evan You, creator of Vue.js" TranscriptResourcesVue.js WebsiteHTML Import SpecAll About Reactivity in VueGoogle Chrome ExperimentsGoogle Creative Labs Five ProgramEvan YouGithubWebsiteBlogLinkedInTwitterPatreonJohn LindquistTwitteregghead.ioGithubWebsite

The Season 2 crew reunites. Laracon Venue: The Museum of Science and Industry Evan You Ryan Holiday / Conspiracy Jocelyn K. Glei / Hurry Slowly / Unsubscribe Marvel.app Zeplin.io Laravel: Up and Running A Brief Introduction to Progressive Web Apps, or PWAs Marcus Aurelius book - Meditations The Daily Stoic AWS Lambda Esther Perel - sample TED talk: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship The Imposter's Handbook The Millionaire Next Door The Simple Path to Wealth Editing sponsored by Larajobs Transcription sponsored by GoTranscript.com [music] Matt Stauffer: Welcome back to a special edition of the Laravel Podcast season three. It's season three but it feels like season two. Stay tuned. [music] Matt Stauffer: Welcome back to a special edition of the Laravel Podcast. This is season three but I wouldn't hold it against you if you got surprised because I have two guests with me. Not only do I have two guests but I have the OG two guests. Can you guys say hello to the people? Jeffrey Way: Hey, everybody. I'm Jeffrey Way. Good to be back. Taylor Otwell: I'm Taylor Otwell. Matt Stauffer: You may have heard of Taylor. We got Jeffrey Way, the creator of Laracasts and bringer of many of us to Laravel and then Taylor Otwell, OG Laravel Podcast, OG Laravel. We figured it's time for a little bit of a breather in season three with all these episodes and just catch up and see how the crew is doing and catch up on things. Stuff we've got on our plate for today is definitely talking about how Laracon is looking for this year, what's going on with the development of Laravel and Laracasts and everything like that. I figure the easiest and most concrete thing for us to talk about is Laracon. What is going on? How is ticket sales? How is speaker lineups? How's the venue looking? How's Chicago looking? How's everything going for Laracon right now. Taylor Otwell: I think it's going pretty well. The venue is the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago which is a really large museum. On the South side of Chicago. We'll be in their auditorium and the ticket sales are going really good. We already sold out. That's about 850 attendees, about 50 of those attendees are going to be speakers and sponsors and then around 800 of them are going to be actual ticket purchasers from the community. This will definitely be the biggest US Laracon. It'll probably be the biggest Laracon yet so far. Although Laracon EU is usually a little bigger, so I wouldn't be surprised if they sold more tickets this year. I'm pretty excited about it. All the speakers are pretty much lined up. Some of the big name speakers that people may have heard of so far. Of course, I'll be there. Creator of Laravel, Evan You creator of Vue will be there. Uncle Bob Martin who's famous for writing some very popular programming books and just being a programming teacher will be there. Ryan Holiday, the author of several books that people may have heard of. His latest book is called Conspiracy but he also wrote The Daily Stoic, Perennial Seller, Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy. Some pretty popular books actually. Who else? Adam Wathan will be there. Several other community members will be there. I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a great talk. Right now, what I'm working on is just ironing out food, drinks, all those extra things you have to do for a conference. T-shirts, about to order those probably. Sponsors, we'll have 11 sponsor tables at the venue. We have quite a few sponsors again this year. It's going to be a packed house. Jeffrey Way: I always wonder how you keep track of everything. Matt Stauffer: Yes, me too. Jeffrey Way: Do you ever get close to the conference and think, "Oh, my god. I didn't even do that yet?" Taylor Otwell: One way I-- Matt Stauffer: Do you have a checklist? Taylor Otwell: One way I keep track is I have a spreadsheet from last year with every expense. That actually serves as a checklist. Like, "Hey, badges are on here as an expense. I should probably order those for this year." I just duplicate that every year and then I type in the new expenses and it also serves as a projection for profit and loss on the whole conference. It serves a dual purpose as a checklist and as a profit estimator for how the conference is looking to make sure I'm not way overspending. Especially, on speakers this year. We've spent probably $50,000 on speakers this year just because we several speakers that have a speaking fee and then we try to pay every speaker at least a few thousand dollars to make sure they're not just losing money coming to the conference which can happen. I don't know if you've spoken at conferences. As a listener, you may know that often it's a breakeven or maybe even a losing affair. Trying to make it somewhat worthwhile. Jeffrey Way: I've been to some where you don't get anything and that's just how it is. Look, you can come and speak but we're not giving you a penny. Taylor Otwell: [chuckles] I feel like I usually lose money. Matt Stauffer: That's most of them. Jeffrey Way: I used to go to a lot of WordPress conferences. What were they called back then? WordCamp? Taylor Otwell: Yes, WordCamp. Jeffrey Way: Maybe. With them is like they just don't have the money. They don't have the budget. You're doing that all on your own dime, if you want to go. Matt Stauffer: I'm looking through this list of speakers. There's quite a few people who I don't know of, but I've heard you guys talk about them. Jocelyn Glei, maybe? Ryan Holiday, you've mentioned him being an author. Then, there's one other person who I didn't know. Who do I not know? I guess it's just them. I think everyone else here is either, Jason Freed or Bob Martin or Evan Yu or people who are pretty reputable members of the Laravel community. Although we do have a few first-time speakers, TJ Miller, Caleb Porzio, Colin DiCarlo are all speakers-- Taylor Otwell: Collin DiCarlo is not. Matt Stauffer: He's not-- Geez, I thought he was-- Taylor Otwell: No. I think he's a 2016 Louisville speaker. Matt Stauffer: That was the year I was at home with the baby, so my bad. Caleb and TJ. Jocelyn, you mentioned Ryan. He's written a couple books. I need to go check those out. Can you tell us a little bit about Jocelyn? Taylor Otwell: Jocelyn runs a podcast called Hurry Slowly where she talks about work, productivity, burn-out, stuff like that. She's actually interviewed Jason Freed on the podcast. She also wrote a book called Unsubscribe which is on Amazon. You can check out. It's just about the overabundance of notifications and busy-ness that's prevalent in our tech world especially. I think she's going to talk about similar topics at the conference. I entirely forgot Jason Freed would be there. That's kind of a big deal. [laughter] I've been so busy with other stuff. Matt Stauffer: Let me ask you. Do you guys feel overwhelmed sometimes by all of the work you have to do? Do you feel that you can manage it fairly well day-to-day? [crosstalk] Jeffrey Way: I'm often overwhelmed by the work on my plate. My life is a constant battle of trying to figure out whether I'm overwhelmed because I don't have everything settled on my side or whether it's because we need to readjust the company a little bit. There's always a the, "Oh, Dave quit and he used to do all this high-level administration stuff so I took on all of his jobs for a while. We need to hire a new Dave." That was the thing for the longest time. "Oh, we've got four more developers than we did a year ago so there's a lot more management" or "This one client is requiring all these needs." Sometimes, it's process stuff. Sometimes, it's just I need to stop screwing around in my free time and actually, work through my email backlog, or I need to figure out how to handle my tasks better. Right now, I'm actually doing really good. It's because I've spent the last couple of weeks really putting in a concerted effort. We also have hired someone who is not joining us until mid-May, who's going to take probably a third of my job off my plate. It's funny because I was actually-- That whole thing, there was this guy, Dave, who managed all this. A lot of those responsibilities are going to be back off my plate soon, so I'm getting to that point. I usually can tell, "Do I finish my day with an empty email inbox and a task list with a couple items left on it and a clean desk? Do I finish my day with 70 emails still in my inbox, 20 things in my task list, a big pile of paper on my desk." Usually, those are the signs for me of, "Am I struggling to keep up, or am I actually on top of my life?" Matt Stauffer: What about you, Taylor? Taylor Otwell: I was just thinking I feel less overwhelmed by the work, and more overwhelmed by the expectations of everything. Because I don't really have that much I have to work on every single day, like Forge is going to run so I just have to answer the emails. It's a little different, I guess, because you probably want to crank out videos. I don't know what your schedule is and then, Matt probably has his daily tasks. For me, it's this expectation of somewhere out in the future, I have to do something impressive again. Matt Stauffer: Do something amazing. Taylor Otwell: I have to get up on stage and speak about it and it has to not fail. That's the pressure I feel really-- weighs on me every day, basically, because at Laracon, there has to be something cool to unveil, which, nobody panic, we are working on something but things can come up, or problems can arise. It could be buggy, it may not be finished in time, and that stuff's really overwhelming, more so than just the daily routine. Like Laracon itself could-- There's expectations there for it not to suck, for people to have a good time, for the food not to be terrible, for the speakers to do well, all that stuff is high expectation, too. Matt Stauffer: Had you guys seen the grid of urgent versus important? I'm trying to remember who it is, but somebody from a long time ago, basically, drew a grid and any given thing that's on your plate as a pressure should be doing can be urgent or not urgent, and important or not important. The really interesting thing is that you can put all the things that are pressing on you into that grid and figure out which of the quadrants they find themselves in. The things we're mostly like to do that are most wasteful is the urgent and not important. The things we're least likely to do that sounds like, really, what's on your plate a lot, Taylor, is the important and not urgent. It's the things that don't have that immediate time pressure but are the most important. It sounds like a lot of your life is important but not urgent which I know those are the hardest things to have the discipline, the focus on. Is that something where you have developed practices to make sure you're not just letting that stuff slip? Taylor Otwell: Past couple of years it's been trying to start really early on stuff like Horizon and then the thing I'm working on for this year's Laracon. I don't know. I do agree because Mohammad's going to take care of a lot of Forge stuff for me. I don't really spend a lot of time working on those features lately. I would say yes, you're right, it is important but not urgent. That is a challenging spot to be in. Jeffrey Way: Plus you have so many products. I wonder does it ever get to the point where you think "Well, I'd love to do another one but I just don't have the capacity to maintain yet another project" Taylor Otwell: Yes. There is a sense of when do you say "I did what I set out to do." This is what success is, basically. I should just maintain what I have and be happy that it got this far and not really try to overwhelm myself with a new impressive thing year after year because-- Most people will never reach the popularity of something like Laravel ever. I should just enjoy that maybe and not really try to stress out about creating the next big thing all over again, every single year. Which I think there's some merit to that as well but people don't really like that I guess [laughs]. Matt Stauffer: It's a little bit of the Apple thing, right? Is a WWDC where they don't completely blow your mind an acceptable WWDC? I would say "Yes man, I'm happy with what I've got. Just don't break it". Taylor Otwell: Yes. I remember Steve Jobs saying not to compare Laravel to Apple in any way really but he said something like most companies are lucky to ever invent one amazing product, They had invented the iPhone, the mac itself was amazing and then iPhone and iPod and all the stuff that came with it. I don't know. At some point, there's only so much you can do. I'm going to keep trying this year we'll see. Matt Stauffer: Jeffrey, what about you? Jeffrey Way: I'm okay right now but it's more of the anticipatory type of thing because my wife's pregnant so we're going to having a second child. We're not going to be having two children. Matt, I know you have more experience with that than me but it's stressing me out a little bit. Then, also this is the first year I've been working with a UI guy. I don't know what you call him, a designer or UX, I don't know what the terminology is anymore but he's doing really great work but every time he cranks out something new it ads to the backlog of stuff I have to implement, which I'm very thankful for but I'm kind of anticipating an insane amount of work in the next five months. I was just curious how you guys handle it. Then, there's also that thing where I worry sometimes when you feel stress and anxiety it's like to some extent you're creating it yourself and it's hard to determine, is this something I'm just doing myself and I am entirely in control of or are you not in control of it? That's something I think about a lot. Is there a way to turn that switch off when you need to? I don't know. Matt Stauffer: I know that you have at least some, like talking about that urgent versus not urgent thing. I know you have some urgency because there's this expectation of a certain timeline for delivering videos. Are there a lot of things on your plate, for work, that are in the longer terms? You mentioned one thing being the implementation in the UI. I know that you do visual refreshes occasionally, although in your latest podcast you talked about how a lot of that was early days and it probably will be a little bit less the case going on where you feel like you're getting more of a handle on things. Do you have a lot of things that are in the longer term bucket? Or are most things still locked in the immediate video production timeline? Jeffrey Way: Most is in the immediate. The UI work we're doing will probably be next year or at the end of this year. That's probably the most long-term work thing I'm doing. Most of it is immediate. It's very difficult to crank out content all of the time. Sometimes if I go even four days without something new I will get a tweet or somebody is complaining. It's like, you have to understand I've been doing this for three years, there's like thousands of videos. At some point, I'm going to have trouble thinking of new stuff to cover. I'm amazed every week I'm able to, I'm not complimenting myself, but I'm amazed th I'm able to think of something to publish every single week but that does wear on me a little bit to finding things to cover every week. Matt Stauffer: I hit episode 100 of the 5 Minute Geek Show and I just was like you know what I've talked for 10 to 15 minutes at a time for about 100 episodes and I don't have anything else stuff to say. People keep saying bring it back. I'm like-- Jeffrey Way: Yes and I think that's-- Have you close that down? Is it done? Matt Stauffer: It's not over. It's just on the hiatus. It's on hiatus until I come up with something else to say. You know what I mean? Jeffrey Way: Yes. Matt Stauffer: I'm not saying it's over because I'm sure that moment will come again, but right now, I'm just like, "I don't have anything else to say." If I felt that pressure like you do, to keep saying things, man-- granted, everytime the new tech comes out you can choose to go learn that tech and go to it. There's some things you can reach for, but still, I totally identify with what you're saying. It's just at some point, I just might not have anything else to teach right now. [laughs] One real quick, on ask for a pro tip, two kids. The big shift for two kids for me-- Taylor, I want to hear if you have the same perspective as-- With one kid, there's always the possibility for one parent to be taking care of the kid and the other parent being an adult. With two kids, there's now-- Even if one parent takes care of the kid, the other parent is taking care of another kid. All of a sudden, those rests that you get-- What I can imagine is, once you have three kids, it's even crazier. Because now, all of a sudden, there's never a one on one. That was the big shift that I noticed with the second kid was. Let's say, the other parent is feeding the baby or something like that, you're not cleaning up, you're taking care of a three-year-old or whatever else it ends up being. That's the biggest shift for me for a second kid. Jeffrey Way: Sounds stressful. Matt Stauffer: [laughs] It's not that bad. It's just a perspective shift, I think. Jeffrey Way: I have heard one bonus is that, like in your case, Matt, your oldest probably helps entertain your youngest quite a bit more, whether or not, depending upon you and your wife at all times for entertainment. Matt Stauffer: The older she gets, the more they play with each other and the more moments we get where they're playing together in the toy room for 45 minutes. We go, "Oh, my gosh." We sat down and had an adult conversation. That's definitely, definitely a boom. All right, that's what's going on with Laracon. You said the tickets are already sold out. Do you have a waiting list like you have previous years, Taylor? Taylor Otwell: There's not really an official waiting list right now. As people email me, I actually do put their name in a little file. I have sold a few tickets that way, but there hasn't been a lot of cancellations lately. There's not really any tickets to give out right now, anyway. Matt Stauffer: Got it, all right. I have a couple questions, but before we do that, let's talk Laracasts real quick. What kind of stuff have you-- let's say, anybody who hasn't been to Laracast for a little while, what have you been covering? What's your latest technologies that you've been looking at? Is there anything exciting you want to share with people? Jeffrey Way: Yes, sure. Let me take a look. Been doing a bunch of things lately. I finally covered Laravel Echo in full. Somehow, that was one of the things that I just missed a year ago. I went through that top to bottom. I think if you're intrigued by that, on how to communicate with the client, I think that would be really useful. It's a series called Get Real With Laravel Echo. Some things, I just have to refresh. That's one of the worst parts of my job is, even if it's from 2014 and it still works, it's like, there's just a few differences where you sort of have to record it all over again. That's the worst part of my job. Other than that, one of the things we're working on right now which I'm excited about, it's a series called How To Read Code. The whole point is not for me to write code, it's to work through the process of how you learn from the code that other people have written. There's that phrase about, "If you want to become better as a developer, you have to--" I can't remember what it is. You have to read a lot of code, you have to write a lot of code, and you have to learn, I guess. A lot of times, I think young people really get into the learning phase where they're reading the books and they're watching the videos, but they're not actually taking enough time to read code that other people have written. I notice that's sometimes a black box. People are afraid to dig behind the scenes and learn how these things are constructed, so they stay away from that. Then, also, they end up not writing as much code as they should, because they don't know what to build. This is the thing that comes up a lot. I learned this from students, is they don't know what to build. They haven't been hired yet, they're trying to think of projects they can flex their muscles on, and they have no idea where to start. With the How To Read Code, Taylor, we're actually going through the Laravel.com source code. I haven't told you about this. Taylor Otwell: Nice. Jeffrey Way: We're just pulling it up on GitHub, and we're figuring out every step, like, "Okay, if there's this repository for the markdown files, well, how is this project getting access to those markdown files and how is reading it and parsing it and replacing the URLs? How is versioning being handled?" What's fun about it is I don't have any experience with that codebase, so it's how I would exactly figure out how things are constructed. It seems like the feedback's been pretty good. Once again, I think, for so many, it's a black box. You're kind of scared to dig in because you don't know where to start. I encounter this a lot, so I hope it's useful. Then, other than that, I've been working with this UI guy. It's been fun because most of the time, I do things myself. That's a lot of coding in the browser, writing a lot of CSS and zeroing in on something that doesn't look horrible, which I'm not very good at. He is so much more systematized. He has me set up with this-- what is this app called? Marvel? Are you guys familiar with this? Marvelapp.com. It's new to me. It's amazing. He'll share a link with me and it's like an interactive website where he can swap things out, he can show me interactions and animations. Then, once I signed off on it, he sends me a link to this Mac app called Zeplin, zeplin.io. It's amazing because I'm so used to-- When extracting designs, I use Photoshop. If there's some SVG, I have to cut it out and save it as SVG. Very hard, creating new layers all the time. With this, everything is just clickable. If I need a particular icon, I click on it, and there's a button that says "Save as SVG." This is all new to me. I don't have any experience with tools like this. It's been a huge benefit to me in the last couple of months. I love it. Matt Stauffer: It's very cool. I'm going to try and go back through, listen to this, put all this in the show notes, everybody. Well, real quick going on with me. I'm updating Laravel, up and running for 5.5, so that's exciting. We finally got approval - actually, 5.5 or 5.6, I'm not sure I remember. I think we might be doing 5.6. I was going to do LTS and I think we've picked 5.6. Finally got my editors to sign off in doing that. I've got Wilbur Powery, who's doing some of the groundwork for me, and just reading through all the change logs, and making a list of all the things that are out of date, so that I don't have to do that work, so that he can just give me that list, and I'm going to sit down and write. The hope is for that to be some time in the fall for us to have edition two, so that's fun. I just left a project where I had been writing code, basically, for 20 to 30 hours a week on top of doing my normal job at Tighten just because we had a project that hit a point where no BLs was available. I felt that I just needed to fish it out. That's part of why I'm feeling so good right now because I'm going back to being a real boy again. [laughs] I'm not going to make any promises I keep making like, "I'm going to blog again. I'm gonna newsletter again." I'm actually feeling this possibility, especially when that new employee joins in May that I might actually start being a human again. I have said that at three or four times since my daughter was born two years ago and it hasn't happened yet. Who knows? Maybe that day will come. Jeffrey Way: That's great. It's great news. Matt Stauffer: Yes. That's very exciting. Okay, so I have a topic for us to talk about. I didn't prep you guys for this, so sorry about that. There's a couple of topics of conversation that have been coming up really recently at Tighten about - and if anybody listens to Twenty Percent Time podcast, you'll know at least a little bit about this. Talking about JavaScript versus PWAs versus straight Blade apps versus Blade apps that have some JavaScript components. First off the bat, before we go to the deeper conversation, I want to talk about PWAs. I want to see, have you guys dug into that at all? The iOS has just pushed out some of the core features that would make it so that you can actually write a PWA and have it work on iOS. This is the first day where you can actually even realistically consider building one that would work on the most modern devices. It's like when Flexbox first finally actually worked versus like, "This has been a thing for a while." We haven't written any production PWAs for anybody, but it's finally a point where we're like, "We can." Is that something you guys have dug into that you're even interested in or is it like, "Hey, it just became legitimate a week ago, so now, maybe, I'll put my brand on it"? Jeffrey Way: Yes. Beyond a blog post or two, I have no experience with that at all. Like you said, it's always tricky. Do I try and invest my time in this if I can't use it too much yet? It sounds like it's now becoming a possibility, but, for now, I have no experience at all. Taylor Otwell: Yes. Me either. Matt Stauffer: Okay. Well, I have no experience other than I did a whole bunch of research to write that blog post, November 9. Jeffrey Way: Right. It's one of the ones I read [chuckles]. Matt Stauffer: Yes. Nine months ago I did all that and then, basically, I said, "I'm going to go build some." Then, I discovered that it didn't even work on iOS, and I said, "Well, maybe I'll hit pause and all that until iOS supports it." They do, and I know that Keith, who works at Tighten, has been doing a lot more thinking about that than I have. I've been pushing him to-- with all his copious free time he's on at this point, he and Samantha are nearly as busy as I am - to see if he can do a part two write-up now that it's viable. I'll see if he can do that. Jeffrey Way: I'm curious to what extent it's viable. In the latest browsers, that's the idea? Matt Stauffer: Yes. Basically-- Jeffrey Way: What's the fallback look like? I wonder. Matt Stauffer: In theory, PWA should work on fallback browsers. In theory, it's not like it's not going to work, but it's more like it's just going to be a website with JavaScript versus the value that a PWA is going to provide. You don't want to really go hole-hogging to something, expecting it's going to be a PWA where people can use it offline, they can use it when their internet goes out, it's going to save stuff, stuff like that, and then have it not work on the major browsers. We're basically at a point where all the major mobile browsers are going to be little work with it. I don't know what the whole mobile Opera situation is like because I haven't dug into that. I know that we're at a point where literally all iPhone users couldn't even use PWAs up until a week ago. It was very non-viable up until a little bit ago. Now, your mobile Chrome, and your mobile Safari, and all those are all possible to use it. The biggest thing with the PWA is just it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, and it's a lot of learning, and it's a lot of different ways of thinking about things because you're having to make things, basically, function regardless of whether or not the internet is there. It's that biggest shift in perspective over anything else. There's a lot of complexity in architecture that you need to introduce to make that happen. The good thing is, people are building tooling to make that easier, but it's something where you're not going to do it unless the client definitively needs it. I can imagine maybe you eventually building a Laracast PWA if you really wanted to so people could go on a Laracast, open up the PWA in their phone, in their iPad, and then tap the seven videos they want to download so they can watch them on a plane or something like that. That might be the possibility for it. But I still think the vast majority websites won't be PWAs because it's cost and you got to be sure that you're actually getting the benefit. Like you said, if most major browsers can't use it, then you're not going to get that benefit. We're now to the point where most major browsers could get the benefits so people should start learning about it. But again, it's just really early days right now. Jeffrey Way: Okay. Yes, I find in general, most of the apps I build are that combination you said. A little Blade, a little Vue, sometimes they're interconnected, that and something that the sort of apps I build. Although I find it gets tricky. I find that I do want to reach for something a little different. I do sometimes feel like, "If I just built this as an SPA entirely, this would be a lot cleaner." I think a lot of Laravel developers probably end up in the same boat where you're trying to do both at the same time. It gets tricky because you often end up reproducing the same logic in two different locations: one for the comments side and one for your back end. I think it's a common thing developers in our space are going through right now. Matt Stauffer: That's the second part of this conversation so I'm glad you transitioned to it. We're having this internal chat where Daniel Coborn is basically saying, "Look, most of the sites were hired to do or eventually are going to have some JavaScript so why don't you just go whole hog in the first place?" Caleb is saying, "I want to build Blade apps that have little widgets, and I'd rather explicitly do all the work in my controller and then pass it in these props to the Vue, which is when it comes up." I'm saying, "I want to do all Blade until I find a definitive need the JavaScript's going to happen. When that happens, then I'll modify it the way it should be. We have this kind of continue or whatever. We chose as a different side. I wanted to hear from you guys. If you were to start a new app today, are you in the world where you say, "You know what? I'm going to do Blade and then I'll modify it." Are you in the world where you're like, "You know what? I'm just going to do single-page app all the way." Or are you somewhere in between? Jeffrey just answered a little bit so I guess Taylor, what's your approach right now? Taylor Otwell: The latest thing I wrote which hasn't been unveiled yet, I did basically build it as a single-page app using Vue and Vue Router. Honestly, I really like it. I think Vue Router is pretty nice and easy to use. I think for this particular use case, it just solved the bunch of problems that we would have had trying to make it all Blade. I feel like my use cases, both times I've interacted with Vue Router, which is Horizon as a single-page app, basically, and the new thing. But then, there are unique situations where I wasn't having to duplicate a lot of rules on the front end. Either you authenticated to view the whole thing or you're not. There wasn't a bunch of other authorization that had to happen for various little features. That made it a little simpler, I feel like, to build it as a single-page app because I wasn't having to duplicate a bunch of junk. But if I was going to build something like Forge as a single-page app, I probably would have a little more duplication on various things. I don't know, man. I see Daniel's point to an extent that it does feel good to just go whole hog and embrace it because it feels nice to do it all in JavaScript if you go down that path. I don't know. I think Caleb's point, I feel that pain most often on authorization. I feel like than anything else. Jeffrey Way: Yes, absolutely. Matt, I'm curious about your point. Because I have seen a bit of a backlash to JavaScript in general, where people think, "Okay, you're getting some extra interactivity but the complexity you introduce to make all of these work is sometimes insane." Just the fact that Mix has to exist to make that build process somewhat easy to understand, shows how complicated this stuff can be. I understand exactly what Taylor's saying but I also get the angle of, "Let's put this off as far as we possibly can." Has your thinking on that changed in the last year? Matt Stauffer: Yes. I would say that I love Vue, I love React, I love single-page apps when they're appropriate. I think that knowing what a lot of projects Daniel has spanned recently, and that type of thing that I know Taylor is working on right now. I would pick SPA. I pick Vue Router SPA and I'd pick an API first in that context but I think that we can do that and we can then assume that that is always the right way to go forward. To me, that's not the case at all because of what you just said. I think testing is harder. I think debugging is harder. I think NPM and all the node modules issues breaks more. I think the entire complexity of this system is significantly higher. I think onboarding new developers in the system is more complicated and I want to make sure that it's not because I know PHP better than I know Javascript. I've been writing Javascript for as long as I've been writing PHP. Granted I haven't been writing React and Vue as long as I've been writing Laravel. I think I understand them relatively well and just the whole system everything is more complex than an all Javascript app. I am willing to make that statement and so to me- Taylor Otwell: The testing is definitely more complex. Jeffrey Way: Yes. Matt Stauffer: Yes. So to me, if I'm in a place where I can accomplish it with Blade then I'm not going to introduce any Javascript. If I can accomplish with Blade and the occasional Javascript widget then I'm going to use it with Blade and the occasional Javascript widget. That doesn't mean I don't believe that there are plenty of apps that are better as all Javascript or maybe even not using Vue Router or whatever but like a Javascript page that navigates to another Javascript page so you're doing your React containers or whatever else it ends up doing. I'm 100% on board with that possibility but I need to be convinced that that's the way to do it before I go there. Jeffrey Way: Taylor, for the SPAs you're building, when it comes to testing, are you doing endpoint testing for your backend code? In addition to that, how much client-side testing are you doing? Do you have tons of [crosstalk] Taylor Otwell: I wrote all of the endpoint test and there's hundreds of them for a new project and then we haven't even written the front end test yet, mainly because I'm working with other people on this. Of course, I have Steve, my designer, and then I have another person working on front-end stuff. It's also complicated by the fact that this is a package, it's not an app that Dusk is really easy to pull in to and so we haven't really toyed around with making Dusk work in a package environment yet. I don't know what Dusk's going to look like. We may end up using some kind of Javascript solution. There's just so many little subtle interactions on the front-end that are going to be one, important to test and two, hard to test I think. I don't know, we'll see I haven't gotten there yet. Jeffrey Way: Yes, I'm curious to see how you figure that out. Taylor Otwell: I would like to pull dusk in and just use it to test the package. Ideally kind of like the test bench for the back end which I used to write all my endpoint tests. Hopefully something similarly -- we can do something similar to that with Dusk, we'll see. Matt Stauffer: I hadn't thought about that because I was like, "Oh yes, Javascript just use Java--" but it's not, it's multiple pieces. We have found that once you put the work into the Javascript testing if that thing is full-on Javascript you can get it to be tenable? I feel like Javascript testing is, in our world, is probably the next great hurdle for us to make simple for people. Basic Laravel testing was one hurdle and then, what do you call it?, your package Jeffrey that was eventually pulled in the core like application testing that was the next hurdle. Gulp was a hurdle and Mix was a hurdle. These are hurdles where they're really complicated things that we look at and said, "You know what? People in the community are needing this to be simpler" and someone sat out usually one of the two of you sat out to make it a lot easier. I know that there's at least two people talking at Laracon about testing. Testing in Javascript and stuff like that. I'm super excited about the possibility that -- I thought there's two. I know that Samantha is at least. Her talk is about full-stack testing strategies. The reason for this is because at Tighten we're always asking this question of, what are our different ways of testing the whole way up and down the stack? Samantha's our resident React guru and we've had quite a few React developers at this point but she's the lead in thinking there and she's been asking this question a lot of like, "What does testing look like?" what I told her was like, "I'm going to wait until you give this talk to demand this of you of you but I want you to make it really easy for me and any app to write a Javascript test" I know Dusk and I know Laravel and PHPUnit but I want you to make it super easy for me. I'm hoping that that's what her talk is going to do for me and for everybody else. No pressure, Samantha. [laughs] Jeffrey Way: That would be great. I think so many times developers don't think about that. I think maybe they get too deep in the woods thinking, "okay, this is quite you have to do. You got to get this and this and this and this and this and then pull in these 8 dependencies then you're ready to go." They forget that to a newcomer that's horrible it's so frustrating. The view test utils library works great but just to get to the point where you can start writing your first test it's a lot of work. In many cases like this, it's not spotlighting them specifically but in so many cases like this you find situations where, "This could be significantly easier to get started" and it's not a badge of honor that you have to go through so many hurdles to write your first test, it should be easier. Matt Stauffer: I like that as a metric. I would like to have the ability to write a Reactor Vue test out of the gate. The same way that with a new Laravel app, I can write a test out of the gate without. I literally open up example test and just change some letters and I'm writing my test, that's brilliant. That was not what writing tests in PHP unit used to be like. It's not as if PHP unit is easy to bootstrap but Taylor and company did the work to make that easy, and you did the work to make it easy with application testing upon the core. I'm hopeful that we're we're moving in that direction. Alright. JavaScript, backends, Laracon , Laracasts, Laravel up and running. What are you guys learning these days? Are there any books you're reading? I know Taylor you've been talking about stoicism a lot. I started that one book, the really old one is it Marcus Aurelius or something like that? Taylor Otwell: Yes. Matt Stauffer: I started the book and I'm just moving really slowly through it. Could you could you give me the TLDR elevator pitch for stoicism? Is that is that possible? Jeffrey Way: What is stoicism? Matt Stauffer: Yes. What is stoicism, Taylor? Taylor Otwell: I think the one-sentence thing is this? It reminds me of that serenity prayer, I don't know if you ever heard that where stoicism is very focused on not worrying at all about the things that are out of your control. They define the things that are in your control as only your own boss, basically. Your health is not in your control, your job is not really, it's influenced by external factors. That was a little confusing to me at first because some things, say you're in a tennis match and you're facing someone, and whether you win or not is partly in your control, but it's partly not. I was always confused by that from a stoic perspective. There was one book that helped me resolve that situation, where it was like, You want to internalize your goals a little bit. To succeed at the tennis match is basically to give it your best so to speak. Whether you win or lose, is out of your control at that point, but you're still succeeding as long as you prepare and practice to give it your best shot. That's the main gist of Stoicism is not worrying about anything that's out of your control. Only worrying about the things you actually can control. Everything revolves around that. Matt Stauffer: I like that. Taylor Otwell: Basically Marcus Aurelius' book re-visits that theme a lot in various circumstances. One of the other popular stoic books, probably the other most popular Seneca's letters. He visits that topic on a variety of issues. Death and dying, sickness, what it means to be wealthy, and be a stoic because he was pretty wealthy. Of course, Marcus Aurelius was the Emperor so he was extremely privileged and wealthy. I think Marcus Aurelius' book is surprisingly relatable for a Roman Emperor that lived 2,000 years ago. [laughter] A lot of the things he mentions struggling with are very relatable. I was surprised at how modern it all came across really for someone that you would think would be very disconnected from our life experience. Matt Stauffer: Did I remember you saying something along the lines of Ryan Holiday, the guy who's speaking doing something about stoicism? Taylor Otwell: Yes, he wrote the Daily Stoic which is a really popular book. There's 365 little chapters, every day it's like a little daily reading. He expounds on it in a couple paragraphs. It's a pretty cool little book. Matt Stauffer: Cool. Taylor Otwell: On the tech side what I've been looking into a lot recently is containers, AWS, deployment, stuff like that. Serverless stuff like AWS Lambda. I feel there's gold in those hills somewhere. [laughter] I just feel like it's not really being presented and packaged up in a very approachable way right now. Because AWS feels very low level, it gives you all the tools you need to make things happen but you still have to tie them together in pretty complicated ways to build something useful. Probably the person that ties that kind of thing together the best is something like Heroku but just playing with some of those technologies. I think AWS Lambda is really cool. I really love the idea behind it, where basically you start out with just a function. By default, it's just like a JavaScript function that receives some arguments. You think of it like a little artisan command that receives a payload from the command line. You can invoke this function and pass it, little arguments. Then you can do whatever you want, you never really have to think about the underlying server. I think their concurrency limit is like 1000 concurrent tasks running at a time. It's pretty scalable for most situations, but you can actually do pretty interesting things like you can run a Laravel app on AWS Lambda which I actually did this week. I'm using some tutorials that people had written. It's a really interesting technology and like I said I feel like there's cool stuff there that just needs to be mined out, repackaged, and presented to people in this sort of digestible way. I've been trying to digest it myself and it's very complicated and there's actually a real lack of quality, like guides and documentation on how to do anything actually useful. There's lots of like, "Let's deploy a hello world" nginx page to elastic container service but how do I do zero downtime deployments reliably? How do I set up all my key workers reliably?" All that stuff is not there. Jeffry: You guys are making me feel bad. I'm trying to think of what I'm learning right now and the answer is nothing. I can't think of anything. Taylor Otwell: I've been playing Rocket League like an hour and a half a day. [laughs] Jeffrey Way: I think sometimes it's good to not always reach for something new but to get yourself in a habit of just a daily routine of every single day I'm going to chip away at this. There have been plenty of times where I'm really pushing my boundaries for a little bit trying to learn something new but I can't say that right now. I'm feeling horrible right now. Matt Stauffer: I can tell you, Jeffrey, I'm not learning anything about code right now so don't feel horrible. Jeffrey Way: Really? Matt Stauffer: I'm learning things. Let me tell you the things I'm learning and I bet you you'll have something related. I'm listening to this woman, Esther Perel, who's this relationship expert. I'm listening to her stuff nonstop. My wife and I are both listening to all her stuff. It's really good. It's like this progressive thinking about relationships but every time I've listened or read to people who are talking about this type of relationship stuff they're like, "By the way, you should just have open relationships and be married to 20 people and have sex with all of them. It's no big problem." I'm like, "That's not me so much." But she has progressive thinking that kind of throws of some of the old croft that we brought along with us but stills very much focused on, "Well you're married to this person, stay married to this person." It's helpful. It's like opening up my mind a little bit. The other thing I'm thinking about is money. I may have talked to you guys a little bit I've been- Jeffry: Yes, you're into that lately- Matt Stauffer: I'm so into it. I just got obsessed with how much I hate having a mortgage. It became this massive thing for me. I literally just looked at my mortgage statement and I think this is it, beginning balance, applied balance, and ending balance. I lived in my house for I feel like several years now. It's atleast one year and it might be two years. I'm paying thousands of dollars a month towards my mortgage and I've applied $5,000 to my balance because I'm paying everything to the interest this whole time. I just feel like I'm in this awful system. You guys know this but I've been listening to these audiobooks. One of them is the millionaire one, what's it called? The Millionaire Next Door and then the other one is The Simple Path To Wealth and just focusing on like really simple investment strategies, really simple decisions you can make. I'm not going to talk about -- I could talk to you guys your ear off in the next half hour but to me, the two things I've been learning about are simpler, healthier approaches to money and investment. Then relationship stuff where it's kind of like helping you understand what kind of garbage you're bringing into your marriage or your relationship but in a way that is for the focus of you staying there, to that person long-term versus a lot of the other alternative. You know, half ways to thinking about it. Jeffrey Way: I live everything you say on the finance stuff because you think the more you can simplify your financial situation the better it's going to improve your relationship as a result, too. I think it's the number one or the number two cause of fighting in relationships, is financial issues and of course, not everyone is in control of it. The more you can simplify your finances then and not buy a new car and instead buy an older car or something you can afford. The more you can simplify it, the better it's going to improve your relationship with your wife or your spouse and your kids. I see nothing but good things there. One thing I am doing, though -- This may interest you, Matt, when we had the Laravel podcast months ago I said, "Years ago I stopped playing guitar and the interest I had left" it's come back in the last couple of months. Matt Stauffer: That's awesome. Jeffrey Way: I know and I'm very happy about it. I went and bought a guitar and an amp. I've been playing lately. You can maybe see it in the back there and it's funny to see the parallels with code. I'm kind of getting in -- I'm approaching guitar from a more mature point of view, I guess. I'm getting more into this idea of like, "Okay, every single day I'm going to be working on this. I'm going to take a very fundamental approach to building up skills, whereas when I was a kid it was more, "I want to learn how to do this. Let's figure out how to do this as quickly as possible." Now, I take a very different approach to it, which I feel all of this parallels with code. It's very funny. I noticed on Twitter the other day a bunch of people were talking about how many coders have some interest in music or have some experience with music. It's interesting, the overlap there. Matt Stauffer: I just read the intro to this Imposters Handbook thing that I tweeted out. I wish I could remember the guy's name because he's a well-known software author but he's talking about being a saxophone player. I remembered having read a book by him in the past where he is making a lot of those parallels. Do you know who that is what is? Jeffrey Way: What is it? Hanselmann? Matt Stauffer: It wasn't Hanselmann. He wrote one but then it was the one after that. You guys would definitely know who this guy is but I just remember that he had studied saxophone. I remember him talking about that in his book that I read but yes, who knows who wrote that. Anyway, I'm only a chapter into this Imposters Handbook but I like that. Jeffrey Way: Very cool. Matt Stauffer: We are at 50 minutes, which is usually when we start ramping it down. Is there anything else going on with you guys, anything you've been thinking about or learning or exciting about that you want to get a chance to chat about? Taylor Otwell: Not for me that I haven't already discussed, I don't think. No, just what I already discussed but we're working on new Forge things, trying to make people's lives easier and Envoyer is getting redesigned, which it hasn't gotten since I originally wrote it in bootstrap, so that will be nice. Other than that, I think that's about it really on my end. Jeffrey Way: Matt, can you share any news about who's coming up on the podcast? Matt Stauffer: Oh man, I don't actually know who's next but let me go pull up my Trello board real quick. Basically what I'm trying to do is, I've been a little sneaky on this but I'm trying to mix up people who everybody knows, who everyone's been waiting for because every once in a while people are like, "Why has Adam not been in the podcast or whatever". I'm trying to mix up those people who I know that people are anxious about, for the people who they're not anxious about but I know that they're going to be really excited when they hear it. There's a couple of people who I know everybody want to hear and I'm trying to spread them out like every three or four guests and then be like, "Yes, but there's these other people that you don't know are super awesome." Some of my favorite responses have been people like, "I've never even heard that person's name before and now I want to be their best friend", I'm like, "Yes, I did my job well." Of course, the well-known names in Laravel are all going to get interviewed. I've got a list of dozens and dozens and dozens of people. I know that Adam's going to be coming up soon for sure and your Eric Barnes and your Chris Fidao's and them are going to be up in there, of course, as well and Freek and folks like that. One of the things I did also, was I didn't interview anybody from Tighten because I didn't want to seem like it was nepotism, but there's quite a few really interesting people at Tighten, so I think the Tightenites are going-- I'm going to start slipping in some Tightenites and some Vehikl and Spatie folks. I'm going to start slipping in some of those folks as well too. There's a huge list, I mean, you guys, I could do dozens and dozens and dozens of more just from the list I originally spit out before even touching any of the suggestions I got on Twitter. There's a lot of good ones coming. Jeffrey Way: I'm excited. It's been fun hearing from people that I'm not overly familiar with. I think that's a very wise choice you've made. Matt Stauffer: I'm happy to hear it, I had so much fun. Of course, I miss you guys which is why we're back here for today. I figured we can do this one, every dozen or something like that, keep that lines of communication going. Jeffrey Way: Yes. Cool. Matt Stauffer: All right guys, feeling good. Anything else? Jeffrey Way: That's it. Matt Stauffer: It was a ton of fun talking to you guys and I can't wait to see you in a couple months. Until then, thanks for hanging out and we'll see you all later. Taylor Otwell: Alright. See you. [music]