Podcast appearances and mentions of evan leybourn

Is AI underdelivering? Or are we asking the wrong questions? This episode breaks down what actually leads to business ROI with AI (and no, it’s not more automation). Overview What if AI isn’t the silver bullet—yet—but the bottleneck is human, not technical? In this episode, Brian Milner chats with Evan Leybourn and Christopher Morales of the Business Agility Institute about their latest research on how organizations are really using AI, what’s working (and what’s wildly overhyped), and why your success might hinge more on your culture than your code. References and resources mentioned in the show: Evan Leybourn Christopher Morales Business Agility Institute From Constraints to Capabilities Report Delphi Method #93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn #82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton #117: How AI and Automation Are Redefining Success for Developers with Lance Dacy AI Practice Prompts For Scrum Masters Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of Directing the Agile Organization and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value. Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy. Christopher Morales is a seasoned digital strategist and agile leader with over 20 years of experience guiding organizations like ESPN, IBM, and the Business Agility Institute. As founder of Electrick Media, he helps U.S. and European businesses harness AI to make smarter, more sustainable decisions in a rapidly changing world. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. We've kind been a little bit off and on recently, but I'm back, I'm here, I'm ready to go, and we've got a really good episode for you today. I've got two, two guests with me. I know that's not a normal thing that we do here, but we got two guests. First, we have Mr. Evan Layborn with us, who's back. Welcome back, Evan. Evan Leybourn (00:23) Good morning from Melbourne, Australia. Brian Milner (00:26) And Christopher Morales is joining us for the first time. Christopher worked with Evan on a project and we're going to talk about that in just a second, but Christopher, welcome in. Christopher Morales (00:35) Yeah, good evening. Nice to be here. It's very late here in Germany. So this is an international attendance. Brian Milner (00:42) Yeah, we were talking about this just as we started. I think we have pretty much all times of day represented here on this call because we've got morning here from Evan. We've got late evening here for Christopher and I'm kind of late afternoon. So we're covered. All our bases are covered here. But we wanted to have these two on. They both work for a company called the Business Agility Institute. And if you have been with us for a while, you probably remember Evan's episode that we had on last year when we kind of talked about one of the studies that they had done. Well, they put out a new one that I kind of saw Evan posting about. And I thought, wow, that sounds really, really interesting. I really want to have them on to talk about this. It's called From Constraints to Capabilities, AI as a Force Multiplier. The great thing about the Business Agility Institute is they get into the data. They do the research, they put in the hard work, and it's not just speculation. It's not just, that's one guy's bloated opinion, and do they know what they're talking about or not? So that's what I really, really appreciate about the things that come out of the Business Agility Institute is they're factual, they're data-based. So that's what I wanna start with, I guess, is... What was the genesis of this? What did you guys, how did you land on this as a topic and how did you narrow it down to this as a topic? Where did this start? Evan Leybourn (02:07) Well, quite simply, it started from almost a hypothesis around so much of the conversation around AI. And let's face it, there is a lot of conversation around artificial intelligence and specifically generative, predictive and agentic AI. Focuses on the technology. And yet when we talk to organizations, a lot of them don't seem to be seeing a positive return on investment, a positive ROI. And we needed to understand why, why these benefits of like three times products or operational efficiency product throughput, three times value creation, Why weren't companies seeing this? That's really what we were trying to understand. Why? Brian Milner (03:01) Yeah, that's a great basis for this because I think you're right. There's sort of this, I would imagine there's lots of people out there who are kind of going through their business lives and hearing all these incredible claims that people are making in the media about how this is gonna replace everyone. And now it's, yeah, we can, I mean, you said 3X, I've heard like, 10 or anywhere from 10 to 100X, the capabilities of teams and that they can now do all these amazing things. And if I'm just going through my business career, I'm looking at that from the outside going, is this fact or is this fantasy? this just a bluster or is this really, really happening? So I really appreciate this as a topic. A little bit of insider baseball here for everybody. You guys talk about in this report that you use a specific method here, the Delphi method. for data geeks here, or if you're just kind of curious, would you mind describing a little bit about what that means? Evan Leybourn (04:00) Chris, do you want to take that one? Christopher Morales (04:01) Yeah, well, so the idea behind using the Delphi method was actually inspired by my sister. She had done a periodic review that utilized this method. And essentially what it is is we utilize rounds of inquiry with an expert panel to refine the research, the feedback that we're getting. And so we collected an initial set of data. reviewed that data, tried to analyze it to come up with a consensus, and then repositioned our findings back to the experts to find out where they stood based on what they gave us. And really trying to get all of the experts to come to an agreement in specific areas. In the areas that we found gray space, for instance, or let's say, data was spread out, right? Those were really the areas where we're really trying to force these experts to get off of the fence and really make an assessment. And it was proved extremely helpful, I think, in this research because what I find in the AI space is that there is plenty of gray. And we really wanted to get to some stronger degree of black and white. I'm not going to say these findings are black and white, but I will say that in order to guide people, you need to give them degrees of confidence. And I feel like that's what we wanted to do with this. Brian Milner (05:31) Well, that's the great thing about research though, Is it can give you information, but there's always the story. And it's really kind of finding that story that really is the crux of it. So we open this saying, fact or fiction. So just hit us up with a couple of the, maybe some of the surprising findings or some of the key things. For the people you talk to. Christopher Morales (05:38) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (05:53) Were they seeing these amazing kind of, you know, 100 X of their capabilities or what was the reality of what people reported to you? Evan Leybourn (06:01) In a few cases, yes. Maybe not 100x, but 8x, 10x was definitely being shown. But the big aha, and I won't say it was a surprise, was really in a lot of organizations, the teams that were using AI were seeing Brian Milner (06:03) Okay. Evan Leybourn (06:23) absolutely massive improvements. People talk about going from months to minutes in terms of trying to create things. And so there's your 100X. But when we look at it at a business level and the business ROI, when we look at the idea to customer from concept to cash, when we look at the overall business flow, very few of those organizations saw those benefits escape from the little AI inner circle. And so that 10x or the 100x improvement fizzles into nothingness in some cases. negligible improvement in the whole organization. Some organizations absolutely saw those benefits throughout the entire system. And those were organizations who had created a flow, who created organizational systems that could work at the speed of AI, especially some of the younger AI native organizations, if you want to think of them that way. But no, most organizations those 10x, 100x kind of goals were unachievable for the business. And so when I was saying 3x, by the way, what we sort of tended to find is those organizations, mature organizations with mature AI programs and systems. we're generally seeing between a 1.2 to 1.4x improvement to about a 2.8 to about a 3.2x improvement. So that's like a 20 % to a 300 % improvement if you want to think of it this way. Brian Milner (08:15) Wow. Well, that's nothing to sneeze at. That's still really, really impressive. Christopher Morales (08:19) yeah, it'll make a significant difference. I think for me the interesting thing about the findings is that there's two areas that I think will pose a really interesting question for people who read the report, and that is this idea of being very intentional about identifying your goal, right? I don't know how many organizations are really meaningfully identifying what their expected outcome is. And I think the other thing, which we didn't really talk about much in the report, but I think plays a role in the conversation that's kind of bubbling to the surface here today, has to do with the human element inside of the organization. And while all of the organizations that we spoke to said that the human was a very important element and prioritized, There was a challenge in identifying specific initiatives that were being put in place to account for the disruption that the technology might have on the staff or the employees. And that wasn't surprising. That was kind of expected. But I think it's interesting that, you know, eight months after we released this report, I would argue that that's still the case. Brian Milner (09:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating because you're right. It's, it's, that's not the story you always hear, because you, you are hearing kind of more of taking the human out of the loop and making it more of just this straight automation kind of project. I want to ask really a question here though, Evan, said you made the distinction about it being more mature, groups, more mature organizations. I'm just curious, is that translate to, is there anything that translates there into the size of the organization as well? Did you find that more larger organizations had a different outcome than smaller, more nimble startup kind of organizations? Evan Leybourn (10:14) So age more than size. Younger organizations tended to be more, well, mean, they tended to be more agile. There's more business agility and through that greater benefits out of AI. These things are very tightly tied together. If you can't do... Brian Milner (10:18) Hmm, okay. Evan Leybourn (10:38) Agile or if you don't have agility as an organization, you're not going to do AI particularly well. And a piece of that goes to what you were just talking about in terms and you use the word automation, which is a beautiful, beautiful trigger word for me here because the reality is that the organizations that utilized AI, specifically generative or agentic AI, to automate their workforce rarely saw a high, like a strong return on investment. It basically comes down to generative predictive AI, generative and agentic AI tends not to be a good automation tool. It's non-deterministic. You pull a lever, you get one result. You pull the same lever tomorrow, you will get a different result. There are better tools for automation, cheaper tools for automation. And so we're not saying automation is bad. We're just saying that it's not the technology for it. The organizations that used it to augment their workforce were the ones that were seeing significant benefits. And now there are caveats and consequences to this because it does change the role of the human, the human in the loop, the human in the organization. But fundamentally, organizations that were automating or using AI for automation were applying an industrial era mindset and mentality to an information era opportunity. And they weren't seeing the benefits, not at a business level, not long term. And in some cases, did more harm than good. Brian Milner (12:28) That's really deep insight. That's really amazing to hear that. I'm interested as well. You found some places that were seeing bigger gains than others that were seeing bigger payoffs. Did you find patterns in what some of the hurdles were or some of the kind of obstacles that were preventing some of these that weren't seeing the payoffs from really taking full advantage of this technology? Christopher Morales (12:52) Yeah, absolutely. mean, we identified some significant constraints that, interestingly enough, when we talk about this, we obviously do workshops. So we were just at the XP conference doing a workshop. And when we talk about this, we identify the fact that our position is that the challenges to AI are a human problem, not a technology problem. And the findings reflect that because of the constraints that we found. only one of the major constraints was associated with technology and that was data primarily. The constraints that we identified had to do with normal operations within a business. So long budgeting cycles or the ability to make a decision at a fast rate of speed, for instance. These are all human centric challenges that independent of AI, If you're trying to run an efficient organization, you're trying to run an agile organization, right? Able to take advantage of opportunities. These are all things that are going to come into play. and, you know, as we like to say, like AI is only going to amplify that, right? So if AI can show you 20 more times, like the opportunities available to you is your organization going to be able to pivot? Do you have a funding model that can provide the necessary support for a given initiative? Or is the way things that run within the organization essentially giving you AI that provides you information that you can't move? Brian Milner (14:31) That's a great, yeah, yeah. Evan Leybourn (14:31) And think of it this way, if you're expecting AI to give you a three times improvement to product delivery, can your leaders make decisions three times faster? Can you get market feedback three times faster? And for most organizations, the answer is no. Brian Milner (14:51) Yeah. Yeah, that's a great phrase in there that Chris was talking about, like the AI will just amplify things. I think that's a great observation. And I think you're right. this is kind of, you know, there's been a thing I've talked about some recently in class. there's a... I'll give you my theory. You tell me if your data supports this theory or not. I'm just curious. You know, we've been teaching for a long time in Scrum classes that, you know, there's been studies, there's been research that shows that when you look at the totality of the features that are being completed in software development, there's really a large percentage of them that are rarely or never used, right? They're not finding favor with the audience. The audience is not using those capabilities. And so my theory, and this is what I want you guys, I'm curious what your thought is. If AI is amplifying the capability of development to produce faster, then my theory is that's going to only expand the number of things that we produce that aren't used because the focus has been sort of historically on that it's a It's a developer productivity issue that if we could just expand developer productivity, the business would be more successful when those other former studies are saying, wait a minute, that may not be it. We need to focus more on what customers really want. And if we knew what they really wanted, well, then, yeah, then productivity comes into play. But That's the human element again, right? We have to understand the customer. have to know. So I'm just curious again, maybe I'm out on a limb here or maybe that doesn't line up, how does that line up with what you found? Evan Leybourn (16:41) So the report's called From Constraints to Capabilities. And Chris, we spoke about the constraints. So maybe let's talk about the capabilities for a second. for the listeners who are unfamiliar with the Business Agility Institute, the model that we use for the majority of our research is the domains of business agility, which is a behavioral and capability Brian Milner (16:45) Ha ha. Yes. Evan Leybourn (17:04) Now, in that model, there are 84 behaviors that we model against organizations. But in this context, more importantly, were the 18 business capabilities. And so what we found was that the organizations that were actually seeing an improvement weren't the ones with the capabilities around throughput. So one of the capabilities deliver value sooner. That wasn't strongly tied. So the ability to deliver value sooner wasn't strongly tied to seeing a benefit from AI. But the ability to prioritize or prioritize, prioritize, prioritize, something so important we said it three times, was one of the most strongly needed capabilities. It correlates where organizations that were better at prioritization, at being able to decide which feature or area, what thing to do was the next most important thing. If you're got AI building seven or eight prototypes in the same time you used to be able to create one, great, you now have seven or eight options. Not that seven or eight are going to go to market. but you're going to decide, you've got more optionality. So it's not that you're be delivering more faster, though in some cases that is obviously the case, but you've got more to choose from so that if you make the right decision, you will see those business benefits. But the capability that had the strongest, absolute strongest relationship to seeing a benefit from artificial intelligence was the ability to cultivate a learning organization. That's not education, that's around learning, experimentation, trying things, testing things, being willing as an organization to say, well, that didn't work, let's try something else. And those learning organizations were the ones that were almost universally more successful at seeing a business benefit from their AI initiatives than anybody else. So yeah, just because you can develop features faster, it means nothing if it's not the right features that the customers want. And that comes from learning and prioritization and there are other capabilities unleashing. workflow creatively and funding work dynamically, for example, that came out strongly. But I just really wanted to highlight those two because that's the connection that you're looking for. Christopher Morales (19:43) Yeah. And if you think about your question ties directly into something that we heard at the conference we were just at, likening to technical debt. So we're actually starting to see the increase in technical debt because of the influence that AI and software development is having in the creation of code and so on and so forth. And so... I think that what you're saying is spot on in terms of your theory. And I think that this speaks to what I believe we should really kind of amplify, right? AI is going to amplify certain things that aren't positive. I think leadership, think businesses need to start amplifying a conversation around... Are we approaching this the right way? What are the ultimate outcomes that we may see? And can we take that on? So if our developers are increasing the amount of technical debt that we have because we've integrated AI or adopted AI, what are we doing about that? What is the new workflow? What does the human in the loop do on account of this new factor? that we need to take into place because ultimately things like that make their way to the bottom line. And we know that's what CEOs care about. Brian Milner (21:02) Yeah, wow, this is awesome. I just want to clarify with sort of the learning organization ability, just want to make sure I'm clear. What we're saying here is that it's organizations that already have that kind of cultural mindset, right? That the background of a learning organization that see a bigger gain from this, or are we saying that AI can makes the biggest influence of impacting how learning an organization is. Evan Leybourn (21:34) The first, ⁓ the arrow of causation is that learning organizations amplify or improve or are more likely to see a benefit from AI. It's not a bad, and I should say we're not looking at how effectively you can Brian Milner (21:35) Okay. Evan Leybourn (21:57) deploy an AI initiative. It's about a we looked at AI as a black box. Let's assume or as in the cut through the Delphi method, the companies that we were speaking to had been doing these for years. These were mature established organizations. And the so it wasn't looking at how effectively you could deploy AI. But rather You've got AI, it's integrated. Are you seeing a business benefit from it? And those organizations that were learning organizations were more likely to be seeing a benefit, much, much more likely to be seeing a benefit. Brian Milner (22:40) Yeah. There's one phrase that kind of jumped out at me that I thought maybe one or both of you could kind of address here a little bit. I love the phrase, kind of the metaphor that you used in there about shifting from a creator to composer. And I'm just wondering if you can kind of flesh that out a little bit for us. Help us understand what that looks like to move from a creator to composer. Christopher Morales (23:01) Yeah, I'll start, but I think Evan will touch on it as well, because I do think it's a fascinating position, is how I'll phrase that. So when we think about creator to composer, we're talking about a fundamental shift on how a human is utilized within an organization. So if we eliminate AI from the equation, The human, your employees are acting as creators at some level, at some degree. Okay, so I have a media background, so I'm doing a lot of marketing. And I think that this is appropriate to use as an analogy, because I think a lot of marketers are utilizing AI right now. So independent of AI, that marketer is required to take into consideration all of these different factors about the business, create copy, let's say. create a campaign, do all of this real like hands on thoughts and levels. Now you bring AI into the equation and there are certain elements of these tasks that are being supported, offloaded in some cases. I'm not gonna get into my opinions about what is right and what is wrong here, but what I will say is there is a change in that workflow. And so what is... fundamentally at play here is that that marketer is now working in conjunction with something else. And so it is critically important that that marketer develops the skills to compose with the AI in a sense of, now know how to direct, I know how to steer a conversation, steer a direction. in order to get to a meaningful and hopefully valuable output utilizing the assist of the AI. And Evan, I'll toss over to you because this is the area, just so you know, Brian, this area of the report is the one that this podcast could turn into an hour and a half long podcast. Evan Leybourn (25:08) So I'll try not to make it an hour and a half, but just to build on what Chris said. Brian Milner (25:11) Ha Evan Leybourn (25:12) So this created to compose a shift, it changes the role of the human in the loop. It changes the responsibilities. And there's a quote in the report, AI is an unlimited number of junior staff or junior developers if you're a technologist. And that comes with some deep nuance because we all know that junior staff there is a level of oversight and validation required. So if you're creating through your AI colleague, let's call them that, if you're collaborating with AI, the AI is creating, then every human shifts into that composer mode and moves up the value chain. So your junior most employees, right? start to take on what would be traditionally management responsibilities. Now, this isn't in the report, but this is sort what we found after, right? Was that there were three sort of skill areas that needed to be taught to individuals in order to be effective and successful with AI or to collaborate in an AI augmented workforce. The first one was product literacy. So the ability to define and communicate use cases and user stories, design thinking techniques and concepts, the ability to communicate what good looks like in a way that somebody else understands, this somebody else, of course, being the AI counterpart. And product literacy, again, your senior employees have that, but that's got to Everyone now needs that. The second is the skill of judgment or critical thinking. The ability to, for anyone here who has a background in lean, pulling the and on court. The ability to and the confidence to, which are two separate skills, actually say, no, what AI is doing here is wrong. We're going to do something different. I'm going to say something different. I'm going to suggest. I'm going to override AI. I'm going to pull the hand on cord and stop the production line, even though it's going to cost the organization money. But because if I don't, it's going to be much, much worse. And so that ability to use your judgment and the confidence to use judgment, because let's face it, AI can be very compelling in its sounds accurate. So you've to be able to go, hang on, there's something not right here, and use that judgment. And then the third is around feedback loops, or specifically quality control feedback. Because as a creator, the first round of feedback, the first round of quality control is implicit. It exists inside the heads and the hands of the creator. Like you're writing a document or creating a... a marketing campaign, you go, oh, I'm not happy with this, I'll change that, or maybe not that word. You're a software developer and say, oh, I don't like that line, that's not doing what I wanted, I'm gonna change it. So the first round of feedback, the first round of quality is implicit. But once you become a composer, the first round of feedback is explicit, right? Because you're taking what has already been produced. And so the, what we, What we found post report is that a lot of people do not have the skill or haven't, sorry, have not learnt the skill, how to do that first implicit round of feedback explicitly. And so it gets skipped. so AI outputs get passed through into... later stages of quality control and so forth. And obviously they fail more often. So it's a real issue. So it's those three skilled areas that we would say organizations fundamentally need to invest in, in order to enable their workforce to be augmented, to work with AI effectively. And the organizations that have those skills, the organization with who have individuals with those skills at all levels from the junior most employee are more successful. Now, I'm going to add one thing to this. I'm going to slightly go off topic because it is the one of the most common questions that we get when we teach this topic or we talk about it at conferences. And that is Brian Milner (29:44) Yeah Yeah, please do. Evan Leybourn (29:56) If AI replaces your junior employees and your junior employees go up a level, what's the pathway for the next generation to become the senior employee? And this is where I have to give you the bad news that no one has an answer for that yet. These very mature, very advanced organizations Right? Many of them were trying to figure it out. None of them had an answer. and that's the, and I'll be honest, I personally, and this is just Evan's opinion, believe that this will become or must be a society level problem, or solution to that problem. it will require businesses alongside governments, alongside, education institutions to make some fairly substantive shifts and I don't think anyone knows what they are today. Christopher Morales (30:53) Yeah, and I would only say to that, and again, there's so much I would love to inject here, but I will say that this is an opportunity, and I always stress that, because that is a little sobering when you think about that idea. But I really, really strongly encourage organizations that are evaluating this to, I understand the considerations about efficiency and bottom line benefit. Brian Milner (30:53) Yeah. You Christopher Morales (31:20) towards AI, and I appreciate that wholeheartedly. But I think this is a real opportunity for organizations to take a step back and really think about the growth path for the talent that you have in your organization. Because augmenting your workforce with AI, are studies, Harvard Business Review put out a study that indicated that an augmented employee was more productive and enhanced as if it had been working with a senior staff member and collaborated at a level that was equivalent to working within a team. So there are studies that show real benefit to the employee having an augmented relationship with AI. If an organization can take two steps back, think about that pattern, think about that elevation strategy for your talent. you're going to be doing so much more to keep yourself sustainable in what is arguably the most like, you know, I don't know, I don't even know the word I'm looking for. It's, the most chaotic time I can think of for businesses when it comes to technology adoption. Brian Milner (32:23) You Yeah, I agree. But there's also sort of, I don't know if you guys feel this way as well, but to me, there's sort of like this crackling kind of sense of excitement there as well, sort of like living on the frontier that like there's this unexplored country out here that we don't really know where all these things are going to shift out. But gosh, it's fun thinking that we get to be the ones who kind of do that experimentation and find out and see what's the next step in this evolution? What's the next growth? The patterns that we've used previously may not apply anymore or apply in the same way because so much of the foundation underneath that system has changed. So we got to experiment and find new things. I love the call there, the learning organization, that that being the primary thing that If we have that cultural value, then that's really gonna drive this because we can then say, hey, this isn't working anymore, let's try something else. And that's how we end up at a place where we have new practices and new workflows and things that will support this and augment it rather than hampering it being a constraint, like you said, yeah. Christopher Morales (33:48) Well said. Well said. Brian Milner (33:50) Awesome. Well, this is a fascinating discussion. I really could go on for the next couple of hours with you guys on this. is just my kind of hobby or interest area at the moment as well. So I really appreciate you guys doing the work on this and appreciate you sharing it with us and sharing some of the insights. Hey, and the listeners here, hey, they got a bonus from the report, right? You listed extra things that didn't quite make it in the report. Just make sure you understand that listeners, right? You got extra information here listening to us today. ⁓ So just any last words from you guys? Christopher Morales (34:19) Thank Yeah. Evan Leybourn (34:24) Just for the folk listening, treat AI not as a technical problem, but as a human and a business opportunity, requiring human and business level changes. Don't just focus on how good the technology is, because that's not where the constraints nor where the opportunities truly lie. I would also just like to call out that if anyone listening wants to learn more about any of these topics, the capabilities, the domains of business agility, visit the Business Agility Institute website, check out the domains, download the report. But we've also launched an education portfolio and we'll be running a different education course on each of the capabilities over the next, I think it's every two weeks almost until the end of the year. So please come and join us and let's go deep into these topics together. Christopher Morales (35:21) Yeah, and I would just say, Brian, to all the listeners out there, don't fall into what I think is a common fallacy, which is where we're going is predetermined. It's already set in stone. I think as Agilists, we know the power of flexibility, the ability to pivot, and the ability to utilize data and information to inform what our next move is going to be. And I think this is a classic case of you control the narrative. You control what AI looks like in your organization, in your team, in your workflow, and you have the ability to carve out how it impacts your world. And so I encourage people to look at it that way. Empower your humanity, empower your decision making. The AI is here, it's not going anywhere. So embrace it in the best way possible. Brian Milner (36:22) Yeah, it seems oddly ironic or maybe appropriate to quote from the Terminator movie here, but it sounds like what you're saying is no fate, but what you make. Christopher Morales (36:32) Prophetic, Brian, that's prophetic. Evan Leybourn (36:37) I love it. Brian Milner (36:37) Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you guys being on and obviously we're gonna have you back. you know, when you guys come out with new stuff like this, it's just amazing to dive deep into it. So thanks for making the time at all kinds of times of the day and coming on and sharing this with us. Christopher Morales (36:55) You're welcome. Evan Leybourn (36:56) Thank you.

Missed some episodes this year? Don’t worry—Brian’s got you covered with a highlight reel of 2024’s most memorable moments, featuring game-changing insights from Agile thought leaders and innovators. Tune in to catch up, reflect, and set your sights on a stellar 2025! Overview In this special year-end episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian takes us on a trip down memory lane, sharing highlights from some of the most impactful conversations of the year. Featuring insights from Agile legends like Mike Cohn, Clinton Keith, Heather McGowan, and more, this curated selection is packed with golden nuggets that you can revisit or discover for the first time. Whether you missed an episode or want to relive the best moments, this recap is a perfect way to close out 2024 and prepare for what’s ahead. References and resources mentioned in the show: #79 Navigating Agile Trends and Challenges in 2024 with Lance Dacy #86 Revisiting User Stories with Mike Cohn #90 Mastering Agile Coaching with Cherie Silas #93 The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn #100 Navigating the Future of Agile and Scrum with Lance Dacy & Scott Dunn #111 Adapting to the Future of Work with Heather McGowan #120 Agile in Gaming with Clinton Keith #123 Unlocking Team Intelligence with Linda Rising Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00.622) I'm Brian Milner and this is the Agile Mentors Podcast, a show about both the personal and organizational journey towards agility. My friends and I will be sharing with you what we've collectively learned from seeing thousands of companies Agile implementations, apparels and pitfalls, as well as the secrets to success. We'll share our personal in the trenches experiences so that you can apply what we've learned in a practical way in your careers. We also hope to hear and learn from you as well. If you're like us and are always in search of better ways of working together, you're in the right place. Join us, mentor, and be mentored. Let's get started. Brian Milner (00:53.288) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for the final episode of 2024. Believe it or not, we have reached all the way to the end. You might be thinking, wait, there's a few more weeks left. Yeah, there's a few more weeks left, but the next release date would have been on Christmas Day itself and the one following would have been on New Year's Day. So we're gonna take two weeks off to be with our families after this episode. And we encourage you to enjoy that time, take the time with your family as well and friends, and truly wish you the best over that time period. But before we get there, we do have one more episode for you. We thought what we'd do for today's episode might be tiny bit different than normal. In fact, I don't think we've done anything like this before. What I wanted to do is, since it is the last episode of the year, is to look back over the past year and play you some portions of some of the really fantastic discussions that we had over this past year. Just pull out a handful of these to talk to you about. If they sound interesting to you, maybe you can go back and take a listen to those episodes. So let's get right into it, because I don't want to waste time setting it up any more than that. For starters, I want to go back to something that's now kind of a tradition for us, and the next one you'll hear from us after this episode will be the continuation of that. The beginning of this year in 2024, we started things off and we kicked it off with friend of the show, Lance Dacey. And that episode was really about looking forward into 2024. And for us to talk about what we maybe thought was coming and what we saw in the future, and then trying to somehow make some predictions or give some advice about how we might be better prepared for it. And one of the areas that came out in that discussion was really talking about how leadership affected an Agile transformation and Agile with the culture of an organization. So I'll play you a little clip here from Lance's discussion. One of the thoughts that he had in that episode, really talking more about how we need to go to the next level with our organizations and with the leadership in our organization. Take a listen. We've been trying to scale Scrum and Agile for a long time and we've written the practices on how to do it. Brian Milner (03:13.23) but we're not allowing the people to practice that. You know, just got through coaching. My youngest son is in fifth grade and we coach his football team. It's like, we're going to sit down and tell you during this play, here's the stance that you take to block. You're basically a robot. Do everything that we say, even if you don't understand it, because the whole scheme for that play is built on everybody doing their job exactly as prescribed. But as you evolve into professional football or high school football, they've learned so much about those mechanics. that's really fun now because they've got the IQ to respond to what's in front of them. That's agile. And that to me is what we have to start learning in organizations, is we know how to run the play at the team level, but how do we build up the people to run the play correctly in challenges when there's adaptations that need to be made? And a lot of times management and leadership is the suffocating part of that where they don't allow for that. It's always interesting to go back and look at those conversations that we have at beginning of the year. and see kind of how it played out. Were we right? Were we wrong? So if you're interested in that, check out that. That was just episode 79 was the first one that we did in 2024. Next up, I'm gonna jump to episode 86. This was one with our very own Mike Cohn. Mike had come back on because quite frankly, we've had for many years a set of user stories that were sample user stories that you could come to our website and download just as a resource for people if they wanted to see what... samples of user stories look like, try to imagine what that would look like in their particular context. So that's why we had this collection of user stories. Well, Mike went back to re-edit those recently, and then he took kind of another look at it and had forced him to kind of reconsider some things, wanted to share some thoughts about those new ideas and thoughts he had about user stories, just in re-examining ones that he had put together previously. So in this next clip, what you'll hear Mike talk about is really kind of a controversy maybe just his own controversy internally, but kind of a shift that he had over the years and really the template itself for a user story. So take a listen to this. I had a bunch of slides. I looked at them a few years ago to confirm this. I looked at them and they all said, I want to blank, right? And it was what the user wants. And sometimes it's not what the user wants. So if you look at slide decks that I create today, they all say, I. Brian Milner (05:36.866) They don't say I can, they don't say I want to, they just say I, and then you fill in the verb. For example, as user, I am required to enter a strong password. I don't want to enter a strong password. I want to type in my dog's name and let the system know it's me, right? So I am required to enter a strong password that doesn't fit with I want to or I can. I can enter a strong password? Well, that doesn't really help. I don't want to. I can enter a strong password. I can enter a weak password. Is that possible? So I do think there's problems with I can, but I leave all of that out of the template and I let the situation determine what that verb should be. Always an interesting conversation there with Mike Cohn. Very, very lucky and fortunate to have him come on usually multiple times per year. And that was just one of the times that Mike came on our show this last year, but really, really interesting stuff there about user stories. If that's something you're interested in, I encourage you to check out that. That was episode 86 with Mike Cohn on user stories. Now we're gonna jump ahead to episode 90. Episode 90, we had a friend of mine, Sheree Silas, come on. Sheree is a very authoritative, knowledgeable person on Agile coaching. In fact, she is the person that I most likely am going to point you to if you come to me and want to find out more about Agile coaching. She has some really great classes and other things that she teaches. And we had her on to talk about Agile coaching, obviously. And one of the things that came up is something that I hear sometimes in classes that Some of this coaching stuff you talk about sounds a little bit like counseling a little bit. Is there a crossover there with counseling? Is this a counseling job? So take a listen to what Shree had to say in response to that question. As an adult coach, you are not an organizational psychologist. You are not a counselor. You are not an organizational therapist or any of those things. That is not the job. The job is consulting, mentoring, training. and some coaching, helping people how to learn how to negotiate, learn how to collaborate, learn how to have good, healthy conflict. And there's helping them to get the business results they want. And it's very frustrating when you kind of hear this taking all the way to the other end of, we're just there to do woo-woo touchy feely stuff. I'm the psychologist. No, that's not your job. And you're not trained to do that. And that's part of the coaching work. Brian Milner (08:03.136) is to help them understand what they need and what they don't. And even as a professional coach, it is my job to make sure my client understands what coaching is and what it's not. And as an Agile coach, that's part of the work is to make sure the client understands what this work is and what it's not. Yeah, really good stuff there about Agile coaching. If you're interested in finding out more about that, listen to that episode. You'll hear more from Sheree on episode 90 about Agile coaching. Next up, I have a relatively new friend of mine, but one that, you know, feel like brother from another mother. Mr. Evan Layborn was on and he came on to talk about some research that his organization had done in partnership with the Scrum Alliance. And in particular, there was one component of that that I wanted to question him about because when I initially read it, it gave me a little bit of some misgivings about it. One of the things I mentioned was that traditionally we have always talked about being a T-shaped individual on a Scrum team that had a depth of experience in one area. but a breadth of experience in other areas that you just weren't an expert in. You were only really looking to be an expert in one area. But this report kind of brought to bear this idea of what they're calling a pie-shaped individual. So think about the mathematical symbol pie and how it has two lines going down. It's kind of like a T with two lines going down from it, right? And when I saw that, initially my first thought was, well, is this just organizations trying to get by with less head count? Take a listen to what Evan had to say about that. I want to be clear that when we're talking about pie-shaped individuals and companies looking for pi-shaped individuals, we're not talking about companies who are looking for one person to do two jobs. They're not looking for someone who's got two skills because they're trying to fill two roles. They're trying to fill two jobs. We're talking about one person, one job, and using multiple skill sets to do that job better. more effectively. In the technology world, we've had a word for this in the tech world for 10 years, full stack developer. A full stack developer is a pie-shaping, it's a developer with test competence and operations competence. They can deploy a DevOps environment. That full stack developer is a prime example of a pie-shaped person. It's not one person doing two jobs. It's one person doing one job with a variety of skill sets. Brian Milner (10:30.752) and doing that job better, exponentially better because of it. There's some really interesting other insights that Evan had in that episode. highly recommend that to you. That was episode 93 with Mr. Evan Layborne. Next up, well, we celebrated a milestone. We had our hundredth episode, if you can believe it or not. And we thought it would be appropriate to celebrate by having two people that we have on quite frequently on the podcast, Mr. Lance Dacey. and Mr. Scott Dunn. So we had something that we don't often have here on the show where we had multiple guests, but we had Lance and Scott on to really look back over the past 100 episodes and look ahead a little bit into what we thought might be coming. And one of the interesting kind of conversations we had there was thinking about some of the changes taking place in the workplace today. You'll hear Scott kind of start in on this with. thinking about the kind of dilemma organizations are facing with the work from home versus work from office kind of situation. And then Lance will come in and kind of relate it more to some larger agility issues as well. Take a listen. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go agile because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, I could be wrong. Maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board. But there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're going to see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? you get this or not? You cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation. is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about, you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. It was always such fun to have both those people on our podcast and it was even more fun to have them both on at the same time. So I really appreciate both Lance and Scott really helping us celebrate there. The fact that we crossed that threshold into a Brian Milner (12:38.326) our 100th episode. Next up is someone that I found really fascinating. is Miss Heather McGowan. And she was the keynote speaker at the Scrum Gathering this year in New Orleans. And she was so gracious to come on the podcast and talk with us a little bit. She had some really great insights. Just listen to what she had to say here in thinking about sort of the place of work in general as a part of our lives today. But what I think what's really happening is we've outsized what work is in our lives. So community used to consist of social interactions, religious affiliations, clubs and groups we belong to, all of those kind of, if you think of them as circles, because everything's visual to me, all those circles shrank and work became bigger. So now part of this generational change, but more and more people are looking for work to provide their purpose. work to provide most of their relationships, work to fill these. It's a little bit in terms of how we're interacting with each other that's causing illness, but it's also an outsize expectation we have around work. So now it becomes table stakes for a lot of organizations for work to be my self-expression, work to be my sense of purpose, work to be where I think about my values. And it wasn't like that a few decades ago. I heard from a couple of people after this episode, just friends of mine talking about it. I want to make sure I'm clear about something here that Heather was saying, she's not saying that we should find our values from those places. She's just saying that's kind of how society has shifted a little bit. So you can debate whether it's good or bad, whether the other circles that she mentioned had shrunk or grown or anything like that. But really that's kind of the reality we're left with is that there's a lot of people who find their belongingness from work today, as I said, whether that's a good or bad thing, you can debate. but that's certainly a reality I think we have to live with. And this was a really interesting discussion. So I highly encourage you to check that out if you want to. That was episode number 111 with Heather McGowan. Next up was someone I found really interesting as well. This was Mr. Clinton Keith. Clinton is a veteran of the gaming industry. And I know there's always some interest in that in our listeners and in the Agile community about how you really can apply some of these Agile principles and things. Brian Milner (14:55.704) to an industry that's so fast moving like the gaming industry. Well, as I said, Clint has worked in that industry for a very long time and he's seen pretty much everything there. He's worked in all different kinds of gaming companies. He's helped them to learn and apply these agile principles along the way. So I'll just share a snippet of the conversation that we had. In this clip, he's talking really about how some of these principles we talk about like, individuals and interactions over processes and tools and are we letting something like a new technology drive how we do things or is it really more about what's the value we're trying to deliver, right? And in the gaming industry, it's fun. It's delivering something that's fun. So take a listen to what he had to say about kind of one of these experiences he had about really finding the fun. The big light bulb moment was having a short deadline on showing something of value. led to people making better choices from the player's perspective, not this challenge of, what can I do with artificial intelligence over the next two years? That's part of the big challenge with these big, huge games of saying, it's like, hey, if there's not a payoff, if you can't see value, and this was an early lesson I learned working with Nintendo of Japan, the guy that made Mario and Donkey Kong, we worked with him directly, Miyamoto. You always had this thing, it's like, the fun fast, show the value of it. And it always stuck with me. When you have these short deadlines, you want to encourage the teams and the product owners is judge the game. Not what you see in the potential in two years. Judge your vision of the two years against what you're seeing every other week and adjust your expectations. Don't fall in love with your vision. Judge the game. Don't fall in love with your vision. Such great advice there, and I think it's so applicable to really industry. Don't get caught up in that word game, right? Judge the product. Think about it that way. I think sometimes, especially for us as product owners, sometimes we can look at that and say, we've got these grand visions and grand designs for our product, in two years we're gonna have this incredible product that's gonna do all these things. Well, you may not make it to two years. You may not make it to two years if you don't. Brian Milner (17:16.897) deliver a value earlier, right? If you don't capture the imagination and attention of your customers, if you don't solve a problem for them upfront, we know the big idea is gonna take longer to get to, but I think what Clinton is saying here, and it's really an important point, I think, is that that's part of what we kind of focus on as Agilist is trying to find the value and deliver it early. So just a really fascinating episode there as well with Clinton. Encourage you to check that out, especially if you have interest in the gaming industry, lots of good content there from him in episode 120. Lastly today, I'm gonna leave you with one last one that wasn't too long ago here, but we had someone that is kind of a beloved figure in the Agile community. She's often referred to as an Agile visionary. That's Ms. Linda Rising. And she came on to talk about multiple things with us, but one of the things that she talked about in our conversation, was about a research project that Google did several years back called Project Aristotle. They were trying to figure out kind of the components, what went into making a high-performing team. So just listen to what Linda has to say about what their scientific research kind of uncovered about really what goes into making a team high-performing. All these different researchers made the same mistake in the beginning. and it's the same mistake organizations make. They thought in the beginning that what makes a smart team is smart people. Wrong. Not that you don't want smart people. You can have a team of very smart people that doesn't have any of these other characteristics that is not intelligent as a group. We really have to wake up and realize, first of all, that we're doing that, that we're valuing IQ or individual intelligence, smartness, you went to this school or you got that particular SAT score. It has nothing to do with that. It's not that there's no correlation, but it's weak. It's much better to have people who have these other characteristics. I just have to say Brian Milner (19:38.444) We are so spoiled Agile mentors with some of the great people like Linda Rising that we get to hear on this podcast and learn from really as sort of a masterclass from some of the best thinkers in this industry. And I know I'm very thankful for them taking their time and thankful for people like Linda Rising coming on the show. If that dialogue that you just heard there sounds interesting, check out that episode. It was episode 123. Linda talks about a lot of lot more great stuff there in that episode. But yeah, we get so many great guests on our show and that was just a handful. It's hard to even pick out just, I think we just had eight of them there. It's hard to pick out just eight over the past year, because there were just so many. And any of the other guests on here, I hope you don't feel like you were not in the top eight or anything. This was just a sampling. I just wanted to pull some different kinds of episodes and I think there was quite a variety of guests and topics and things that we had on the show this year. It just makes me excited about thinking about what's possible in the next year. I know we're gonna be trying some new things. I've been interacting with some of you at the Agile Mentors Community and you've been talking to me about some suggestions about things that maybe we can do. And we're gonna try that. We're gonna try some new things going into the new year. So you may see some shifts from time to time of just a few experiments that we might be trying. As always, we'd love to hear your feedback on any of those things, but we're always in search of making this the most valuable use of your time. We think that the quality of the people, like you just heard, is pretty good. We're pretty happy with the people that really decide to come on the show, and we're very humbled by the fact that they choose to come on our show. I just wanna always make it the most valuable use of your time. We want this to be the most valuable Agile podcast that's out there. As always, if there's anything we can do to change that, I'll go ahead and just say that now. email us podcast at mountegoatsoftware.com. Put that at the end of every episode. Truly mean it. If there's things that you want us to experiment with or try, if there's guests you want to hear, in addition to some of these great guests you heard today, there's other people that maybe that you think would be good on the podcast, send us an email, podcast at mountegoatsoftware.com. Or if there's a topic that you want us to cover, let us know that as well. We'd be more than happy to try and put that in. In our planning, Brian Milner (22:01.666) we try to always put the listener's suggestion kind of towards the top of our backlog. It may not be the very next thing we do, but we try to make that as soon as possible. Oftentimes we have to find the right guest, but as soon as we find the right guest, we want to get that listener suggestion on as soon as possible. So thank you for those that have made suggestions in the past and keep them coming. I'll just go into a few other things then and wrap up and get you on your way. It's been fun looking back over the last year. And as I said, I'm excited about seeing where we go next year. Speaking of that, just make sure that you like and subscribe to the podcast. That way you don't miss any of these things, like any of these great episodes that you heard little snippets of here in this podcast episode. And with that, I guess that'll be a wrap for another year. So Agile Mentors, my heartfelt happy holidays to you. Whatever you celebrate this season, I truly, truly hope that you get to spend some time with your family, your friends, your loved ones. truly hope that you get some time to reflect on what you're grateful and thankful for. I hope you come back next year refreshed, ready to go. I hope that's part of your sustainable pace, that time of renewing with the people in your life that are closest to you. We look forward to seeing what happens with you in the new year. So join us back next year. We'll kick things off. We'll be back here in just a few weeks. And on the 8th of January will be our next episode that we release. And we'll have our... of annual sit down with Lance Dacey to look ahead to 2025 and see what's coming up then. So join us and hope you have a very, very happy holidays. See you next time on another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.

Continuing last week's conversation of where agile is headed, we go from the anecdotes to arithmetic.  We sit down for a chat with Evan Leybourn, Head Imaginarian of the Business Agility Institute to discuss what he's seeing from his vantage point regarding our industry and where it looks to potentially be going.  Have a listen! If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a review, a rating, or leave comments on iTunes, Stitcher or your podcasting platform of choice. It really helps others find us.  Much thanks to the artist  from  who provided us our outro music free-of-charge!  If you like what you heard,     to find more music you might enjoy! If you'd like to join the discussion and share your stories,  please jump into the fray at our  We at the Agile Uprising are committed to being totally free.  However, if you'd like to contribute and help us defray hosting and production costs we do have a .  Who knows, you might even get some surprises in the mail!  

Explore the skills revolution with Brian and Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute as they dive into a landmark study on the skills shaping today's workforce. Learn why adaptability, human skills, and agile acumen are the keys to success. Overview In an enlightening episode, Brian sits down with Evan Leybourn, co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, to delve into recent research findings on the essential skills for the modern workforce. They discuss the paramount importance of human skills over technical abilities in hiring, the emergence of 'pie-shaped' professionals who excel in multiple domains, and the critical role of agile acumen across various job roles. Additionally, they address the pressing need for educational systems to pivot from traditional role-based learning to a more versatile skill-based approach. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone looking to navigate the workforce's future, offering deep insights into adapting and thriving in an ever-evolving professional landscape. Listen Now to Discover: [1:17] - Join Brian in a captivating session with Evan Leybourn, the innovative author and co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, as they explore groundbreaking insights into agility and workforce evolution. [2:32] - Discover the unexpected findings from Evan's recent study, ‘Skills in the New World of Work,’ on the workforce's most sought-after skills and their pivotal role in modern hiring practices. [4:50] - Brian sheds light on the rising value of soft, or human, skills in the workforce, suggesting a pivotal expansion of Scrum Master skills to embrace these vital attributes. [8:00] - Evan reveals their unexpected discovery: organizations are increasingly seeking 'pie-shaped' skills that blend diverse areas of expertise. [12:45] - Perfect your human skills and refresh your Agile approach with Mountain Goat Software’s Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® courses. For further details, visit the Mountain Goat Software training schedule. [15:05] - Unpacking the idea of 'pie-shaped' professionals, Evan details how these unique individuals bring multiple skill sets to one role, elevating their effectiveness and output, using a full-stack developer as an example. [16:22] - Evan tackles the provocative statement that Agile is dead, offering insights and counterarguments to this bold claim. [21:47] - Evan highlights a key finding: Agile Acumen emerges as the runner-up in the most coveted skills during the hiring process across organizations. [24:50] - Evan stresses an important takeaway: 'The skills you have are valuable,' pointing out that the essence of Agile expertise transcends the exact wording of job descriptions. [27:05] - Highlighting a necessary evolution in learning, Evan advocates for a move towards skill-based training and education, away from traditional role-focused models, to better prepare for the workforce of tomorrow. [29:21] - Brian shares his gratitude for Evan and his work to help better understand the job market. [30:02] - Brian invites listeners to join both him and Evan live and in person at the Global Scrum Gathering 2024 in New Orleans. [30:33] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [31:03] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Evan Leybourn Skills in the New World of Work: Which Agile Skills are Most In-Demand in Today's Workforce? Business Agility Institute Directing The Agile Organization: A Lean Approach To Business Management by Evan Leybourn #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value by Evan Leybourn Global Scrum Gathering 2024 Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of "Directing the Agile Organization" and "#noprojects; a culture of continuous value." Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy.

Join Murray Robinson and Shane Gibson as they chat with Evan Leybourn from the Business Agility Institute about business agility. We discuss how to define and measure business agility, examples of agile organisations, and the struggle with traditional bureaucratic models. We delve into the different types of leadership, the nature of internal cultural and political changes, and the challenges faced by organisations in adopting and implementing agility.   Listen to the podcast on your favourite podcast app: | Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | iHeart Radio | PlayerFM | Amazon Music | Listen Notes | TuneIn | Audible | Podchaser |  Deezer | Podcast Addict | Connect with Evan via LinkedIn or over at https://businessagility.institute/   Contact Murray via email or Shane on LinkedIn shagility. You can read the podcast transcript at: https://agiledata.io/podcast/no-nonsense-agile-podcast/business-agility-with-evan-leybourn/#read   The No Nonsense Agile Podcast is sponsored by: Simply Magical Data

Evan Leybourn, the founder of the Business Agility Institute, has been many things throughout his career: a satellite engineer (not what it sounds like), a library assistant (exactly what it sounds like), a koala (long story), a Business Intelligence developer, and a manager amongst others. In all of these roles, he has made mistakes and has failed. Anyone who has heard him speak before should know that business agility is a journey, not a destination. But what may not be clear is that while it's a corporate journey, it's also a personal one for Evan.So which of those mistakes and failures brought him to business agility? And what did he learn along the way? Find out what he has learned as we chat with him in this series on Change is the Only Constant.Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Evan Leybourn, the founder of the Business Agility Institute, has been many things throughout his career: a satellite engineer (not what it sounds like), a library assistant (exactly what it sounds like), a koala (long story), a Business Intelligence developer, and a manager amongst others. In all of these roles, he has made mistakes and has failed. Anyone who has heard him speak before should know that business agility is a journey, not a destination. But what may not be clear is that while it's a corporate journey, it's also a personal one for Evan.So which of those mistakes and failures brought him to business agility? And what did he learn along the way? Find out what he has learned as we chat with him in this series on Change is the Only Constant.Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Evan Leybourn, the founder of the Business Agility Institute, has been many things throughout his career: a satellite engineer (not what it sounds like), a library assistant (exactly what it sounds like), a koala (long story), a Business Intelligence developer, and a manager amongst others. In all of these roles, he has made mistakes and has failed. Anyone who has heard him speak before should know that business agility is a journey, not a destination. But what may not be clear is that while it's a corporate journey, it's also a personal one for Evan.So which of those mistakes and failures brought him to business agility? And what did he learn along the way? Find out what he has learned as we chat with him in this series on Change is the Only Constant.Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Evan Leybourn, the founder of the Business Agility Institute, has been many things throughout his career: a satellite engineer (not what it sounds like), a library assistant (exactly what it sounds like), a koala (long story), a Business Intelligence developer, and a manager amongst others. In all of these roles, he has made mistakes and has failed. Anyone who has heard him speak before should know that business agility is a journey, not a destination. But what may not be clear is that while it's a corporate journey, it's also a personal one for Evan.So which of those mistakes and failures brought him to business agility? And what did he learn along the way? Find out what he has learned as we chat with him in this series on Change is the Only Constant.Note: You can read about the behavioral model of business agility and 86 behaviors that Evan talks about at https://businessagility.institute/domains/overviewVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

The drive to business agility never ends, but there are inflection points ⤵️ Evan Leybourn and Martin Foster review the changes, trends, predictive indicators, and insight that form a global view of organizations' business agility journey. In this podcast, you will learn the following:   ✅ The purpose and design of the Business Agility report ✅ Global trends in business agility ✅ Predictive indicators ✅ Time to benefit ✅ Challenges in achieving sustainable business agility

Evan Leybourn, the founder of the Business Agility Institute, has been many things throughout his career: a satellite engineer (not what it sounds like), a library assistant (exactly what it sounds like), a koala (long story), a Business Intelligence developer, and a manager amongst others. In all of these roles, he has made mistakes and has failed. Anyone who has heard him speak before should know that business agility is a journey, not a destination. But what may not be clear is that while it's a corporate journey, it's also a personal one for Evan.So which of those mistakes and failures brought him to business agility? And what did he learn along the way? Find out what he has learned as we chat with him in this series on Change is the Only Constant.Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

SPaMCAST 750 marks the return of Evan Leybourn to the podcast. Evan and I discuss the different domains of business agility, the relationship between behavior and culture, and whether Taylorism still has a place in the world.  Evan is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next generation of organizations. Companies that are agile, innovative, and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today's unpredictable markets. Evan is also the author of Directing the Agile Organisation (2012) and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value (2018). Website: https://businessagility.institute/ Re-read Saturday News! This week we tackle Chapter 1 of Team Topologies: Organizing Business And Technology Teams For Fast Flow by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais. The authors open Chapter 1 with a quote from Naomi Stafford, Guide to Organizational Design. “Organizations should be viewed as complex and adaptive organizations rather than mechanistic and linear systems”   The quotes set the tone for Team Topologies: Organizing Business And Technology Teams For Fast Flow. Chapter 1 is titled The Problem With Org Charts. In this chapter, the authors point out problems in how organizations describe and organize themselves.  Buy a copy and upgrade your coaching skills - Team Topologies: Organizing Business And Technology Teams For Fast Flow Previous Installments: Week 1: Front Matter and Logistics - http://bit.ly/3nHGkW4  Week 2: The Problem With Org Charts - https://bit.ly/3zGGyQf  Next SPaMCAST  SPaMCAST 751 will feature an essay on the collision of fatalism and privilege. Let's just say…it isn't pretty. Jeremy Berriault will bring his QA Corner to the podcast. Mr. Berriault and I will discuss testing, Quality, and evolving behavior.   

In SPaMCAST 749, we discuss the attributes of good work input/entry. There is no perfect approach to bringing work into an organization or team. Arguably since people are involved, perfect may not be something that can exist in the real world but instead, there are good approaches. There are nine key concepts for good work entry. Good work entry requires that these nine have to be present in some form regardless of whether you are using Scrum, Kanban waterfall, or some mix of frameworks. We want to be crystal clear, deciding to forego any of these characteristics other than for the briefest moment will set you on the path to the ninth circle of work entry hell. We also have a visit from Susan Parente who brings her Not A Scrumdamentalist column to the podcast. Susan and I diagnose why some organizations think that a product owner can also be a scrum master.  Re-read Saturday News! Today we begin the re-read of Team Topologies: Organizing Business And Technology Teams For Fast Flow by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais. The book contains front matter, including a foreword and preface (22 pages), 8 chapters, a conclusion (190 pages), and end matter (glossary, recommended reading, references, notes, index, acknowledgments, and about the authors). Today we tackle the approach to the re-read and the front matter.  Buy a copy and upgrade your coaching skills - Team Topologies: Organizing Business And Technology Teams For Fast Flow Previous Installments: Week 1: Front Matter and Logistics - http://bit.ly/3nHGkW4  Next SPaMCAST  SPaMCAST 750 will mark the return of Evan Leybourn to the podcast. Evan and I discuss the different domains of business agility and whether Taylorism still has a place in the world.  

Evan Leybourn, the founder of the Business Agility Institute, has been many things throughout his career: a satellite engineer (not what it sounds like), a library assistant (exactly what it sounds like), a koala (long story), a Business Intelligence developer, and a manager amongst others. In all of these roles, he has made mistakes and has failed. Anyone who has heard him speak before should know that business agility is a journey, not a destination. But what may not be clear is that while it's a corporate journey, it's also a personal one for Evan.So which of those mistakes and failures brought him to business agility? And what did he learn along the way? Find out what he has learned as we chat with him in this series on Change is the Only Constant.Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Bio  Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next-generation of organisations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic – perfectly designed to thrive in today's unpredictable markets. His experience while holding senior leadership and board positions in both private industry and government has driven his work in business agility and he regularly speaks on these topics at local and international industry conferences.    Interview Highlights  01:10 Nomadic childhood  08:15 Management isn't innate  14:54 Confidence, competency and empathy  21:30 The Business Agility Institute  31:20 #noprojects  Social Media/ Websites:           LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanleybourn/          Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/eleybourn          Twitter: @eleybourn          Websites: o   Business Agility Institute https://businessagility.institute/  o   The Agile Director (Evan's personal site): https://theagiledirector.com/          Books/ Articles                   #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value by Evan Leybourn and Shane Hastie https://www.amazon.co.uk/noprojects-Culture-Continuous-Value/dp/1387941933          Directing the Agile Organisation: A Lean Approach to Business Management by Evan Leybourn https://www.amazon.co.uk/Directing-Agile-Organisation-approach-management-ebook/dp/B01E8WYTQ6          Out of the Crisis by W. Edwards Deming https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Crisis-Press-Edwards-Deming/dp/0262535947          The Goal by Eliyahu Goldratt https://www.amazon.co.uk/Goal-Process-Ongoing-Improvement-ebook/dp/B002LHRM2O          Sooner, Safer, Happier by Jonathan Smart, Jane Steel et al https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sooner-Safer-Happier-Antipatterns-Patterns/dp/B08N5G1P6D          Dare to Lead by Brene Brown https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dare-Lead-Brave-Conversations-Hearts/dp/1785042149          Article: Evan's Theory of Agile Constraints https://theagiledirector.com/article/2017/04/27/evans-theory-of-agile-constraints/ Episode Transcript  Ula Ojiaku (Guest Intro): Hello and welcome to the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. I'm Ula Ojiaku. On this podcast I speak with world-class leaders and doers about themselves and a variety of topics spanning Agile, Lean Innovation, Business, Leadership and much more – with actionable takeaways for you the listener.  Ula Ojiaku  I am honoured to have with me Evan Leybourn, he is the founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute, an international membership body that champions and supports the next generation of organisations. I am really, really pleased to have you here. Thank you for making the time Evan.  Evan Leybourn  Thank you Ula, I'm looking forward to this.  Ula Ojiaku  Awesome, now, so I always start with my guests and I'm very curious to know who is Evan and how did you evolve to the Evan we know right now today?  Evan Leybourn  I suppose that's a long one, isn't it? So I'm Australian, I was born in a small country town in the middle of nowhere, called Armadale, it's about midway between Sydney and Brisbane, about 800 kilometers from both, about 200 kilometers inland, and moved to Sydney when I was fairly young. Now I've spent my entire childhood moving house to house, city to city. So  the idea of stability, I suppose, is not something that I ever really had as a child. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I don't, I had as good as childhood as any, but it's, I love moving, I love new experiences and that's definitely one of the, I think drivers for me in, when I talk about agility, this idea that the world changes around you. I think that a lot of that early childhood just, disruption, has actually put me in a pretty good place to understand and deal with the disruption of the world and then so, well, we've got COVID and everything else right now. So obviously there is a big, there are issues right now, and disruption is the name of the game. I started my career as a techie. I was a systems administrator in Solara Systems, then a programmer, and then a business intelligence data warehousing person. So I've done a lot of that sort of tech space. And, but you mentioned like the Business Agility Institute and this is the organisation I work now, but probably have to go back to 2008 when, I've been using agile, capital A agile, Scrum and XP, primarily a little bit of FDD in a data warehousing business intelligence space. And in 2008, I got promoted to be an executive in the Australian Public Service. And this was, I think, my first exposure to like, before that I'd run teams, I'd run projects, I knew how to do stuff. And like being a first level leader or project manager, it's, everything is personal. I don't need process, I don't need all those things that make organisations work or not work as the case may be, because when you've got seven people reporting to you, like that's a personal form of management.  So when I became a director, this was, I think, my first exposure into just how different the world was when, well the world of business was. And, I'll be blunt, I wasn't a good director. I got the job because I knew what to do. I knew how to, like, I could communicate in the interview how to like, build this whole of governments program, and that isn't enough. I had this assumption that because I was good at X, I would be good at being a leader of X and that's not the case. And so I actually, there's a concept called the Peter principle, being promoted to your level of incompetence. And that was me. I, it's, that's literally, I didn't know what I was doing, and of course, no one likes to admit to themselves that they're a fraud. It took my boss at the time to tell me that I was arrogant, because, and, and that actually hurt because, it's like, I don't see myself as arrogant, it's not part of my mental model of myself. And so, that push, that sort of sharp jab at my ego, at my sense of self was enough to go, hang on, well, actually, maybe I need to look at what it means to be a leader, what it means to create that kind of skillset, and I had this idea at the time that this thing that I'd been doing back as a techie called agile, maybe that might help me with, help me solve the problems I was facing as an executive – coordination, collaboration, not amongst seven people, but amongst like five, six different government agencies where we're trying to build this whole of government program and long story short, it worked. And this was sort of my first ‘aha moment' around what we sort of now would call, or what I would now call business agility, though definitely what I was doing back in 2008 was very, a far cry from what I would think of as good business agility. It was more like agile business, but that's what sort of set me up for the last, almost 15 years of my career and helping and advocating for creating organisations that are customer centric with employee engagement, engaged people, that idea of, we can be better if we have, take these values and these principles that we hold so dear in a technology space and we make that possible, we make that tangible in a business context. So it's a bit rambly, but that's kind of the journey that got me to where I am.  Ula Ojiaku  Not to me at all. I find it fascinating, you know, hearing people's stories and journeys. Now, there's something you said about, you know, you, weren't a good director, you knew how to do the work, but you just didn't know, or you weren't so good at the leadership aspects and then you had a wake up moment when your boss told you, you were coming off as arrogant. Looking back now and knowing what you now know, in hindsight, what do you think where the behaviours you were displaying that whilst it wasn't showing up to you then, but you now know could be misconstrued as arrogance?   Evan Leybourn  So let me take one step. I will answer your question, but I want to take it one step before that, because I've come to learn that this is a systemic problem. So the first thing, I shouldn't have been given that job, right. Now, do I do a good job? Eventually, yes, and I grew into it, and I'm not saying you need to be an expert in the job before you get it. Learning on the job is a big part of it, but we as a society, see that management is innate. It's something that you have, or you don't, and that's completely wrong. You don't look at a nurse or a doctor or an engineer and think, I can do their job. No, you think if I go to university and train, I can do that job. I don't think we look at a janitor and go, I can do their job without training. And a janitor is going to receive on the job, like it might be a couple of days, but they're going to receive on the job training. There was a study by, I think it was CareerBuilder, 58% of managers receive no training. We just have this assumption that I'm looking at my boss, I can do their job better than them. And maybe you can, but better isn't the same as good. Like, if they've reached their levels in competence, yes, you could probably be better, but not good. And so I think the skills of management are, it's an entirely different skillset to what, the thing that you are managing. And so I was good at, I was Director of Business Intelligence, so I was good at business intelligence, data warehousing systems. I didn't have the skills of management, no, running a thirty-five million dollar P&L, coordinating multiple business units, building out those systems and actually designing the systems that enabled effective outcomes. And so I think, I'm going to touch on two things. The first is, people and I, definitely, should have invested in learning how the skills of management before I became a manager. Not so that you're perfect, not so that you're an expert manager before you start, because you will learn more on the job than you ever will, from anything before you, before you do that job. But I didn't, it's the, I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know I was a bad manager. I was completely blind to that fact. I knew that outcomes weren't happening and that I was struggling, but half the time, it's a, why won't people listen to me? Why wouldn't they do what I say? Right, which, okay, yes, definitely not servant leadership material, but I didn't even know servant leadership was a thing. Right, so that's the point. At a minimum, I should have known what it took to be a manager, the skills that were going to be required of me. I should have made some investments in building that before I took that job, which is now the second point as to, they shouldn't have given me the job. And, again, this goes to that systemic problem.  I forget who like, there was like a Facebook, like, or a Reddit, like screenshot tweet, meme thing. And I saw it like six or seven years ago, and it stuck with me ever since. It was ‘God save us from confident middle-aged white men'. And I wasn't middle-aged, I was the youngest director in the public service at the time, but I definitely was confident. And for those of you not watching the video, I am white. So, the privilege and the assumption, I carried confidence into the interview, of course I can do the job, I run this team, I know how to do, like I know business intelligence and I know how to design business development systems, and it's like, sure it's a different scale, but it's the same thing. And because I came across as confident, because I thought I could do the job. I thought it was just what I was doing before, plus one, right. But it wasn't, because sure, I could do the plus one part, but that was 30% of the role. I was completely missing everything else. And so that's that other systemic problem, which I have learnt, sadly, over the last decade and a half, in terms of just, we overvalue confidence, then empathy, we overvalue confidence over skill. And I had one, I was empathetic. I didn't have, and, but I was weak at the skills, the management skills, I should have had all three, competence, confidence and empathy, but we value in interviews, as hiring managers, we interview confidence a lot more than the other two. And that is, I think the, one of the real systemic problems we have in the world, especially in tech, but just generally in the world.  Ula Ojiaku  Awesome. I mean, I was going to ask you, you know, what were those skills, but you've kind of summarised in terms of competence, confidence and empathy. So, well, I'm glad to hear the story had a happier ending, because you definitely changed course. So now knowing, again, what you now know, and you're speaking to Evan of 2008, what are the things, before going for that job, would you have told him to skill up in to be prepared for management?   Evan Leybourn  So, let me get very specific. So confidence, competence, empathy for me, those are the, so  this is something that I came up with, or I don't know where this idea emerged from, it's something that I've carried with me for the better part of a decade. For me, those three attributes are my measures of success. If I can have all three, that's what can make me successful. Now in terms of, going deeper than some of the specific skills that we need, that I needed, so the first one, emotional intelligence. Now, I know that's broad and fuzzy, but there were many times, and many times since I'm not saying I'm perfect and I'm not perfect now. This last week, there have been challenges where it's like I've misobserved, and I wish I had seen that, but being able to understand when you're not hearing somebody, when they're talking to you and you're listening, but not hearing, and so the emotional intelligence to sort of read and understand that there's a gap, there's something missing between what is being said and what is being processed up there in the little grey cells. The other one that, a couple, I'll call it emergent strategy. So, this idea of the three-year plan is completely ridiculous, it's been wrong for 30 years, but we don't develop enough of the counter skill, which is being able to take an uncertain environment, where there's insufficient information and ambiguity, make a decision, but design that decision with feedback loops so that, you know the decision is probably, right, that strategic decision is probably wrong, so rather than sort of run with it for three months and then make another decision, it's designed with these feedback loops, so it's, the next decision is better because you, it's the whole strategic system is designed to create those loops. And that was a key skill that I was missing, in that, this is the government, like I was a Prince 2 Project Manager, an MSP programme manager. I knew how to build the Gantt charts, and I was also an agilest, like I've been doing Scrum for the past five years, but like Scrum at a team level and agility at a business level was not something that many people had even thought about. And so, all of the programme level strategy was not agile. Again, this is 2008, and so we had this,  if I had known how to build an emergent, adaptive strategy, a lot of the challenges, the systems level challenges would have been resolved. And I could go a long time, but I'll give you one more.   So, I'm going to say communication, but not in the way that I think many people think about it. It's not about like conveying ideas or conveying messages, but it is that empathetic communication. It goes with that emotional intelligence and so forth, but it's the ability to communicate a vision, the ability to communicate an idea, and intent, not just the ability to communicate a fact or a requirement, like those are important too, but I could do those, but I had a large teams of teams across, not all of them reported to me, this was a whole government program. So there were people who reported to the program, but their bosses were in a completely different company, government department to me. And so I needed to learn how to align all of these people towards a common vision, a common goal beyond just a here's your requirements, here's the Gantt chart for the program. Please execute on this 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, right, which, sure, they did, but it's, they would, what's the saying? I think it was Deming, give someone a measurable target and they will destroy the company in order to make it. And you give them these, it's like, they will do like what that Gantt chart says, even if the world changes around them and it's the wrong thing to do, and we know, we've learned a lot better as a world, the idea of program level agility is pretty standard now, but 2008, it definitely, wasn't definitely not in government, definitely not in Australia. So, if I had been able to communicate intent and vision and get them aligned to that vision, and not just aligned to a Gantt chart, we would have been a lot more successful, we'd have a lot more buy-in, a lot more engagement. So, there's more, a lot more, but those would be, I think, some of the three that I would say really, really learn before you get the job.   Ula Ojiaku  Well, thanks for that. I'd like to just dive in a bit more, because you said something about the designing, you would have benefited if you knew how to design, build and adapt, that adaptive emerging strategy. How do you do that now? What's the process for doing this?   Evan Leybourn  So let me jump to the present. So, I run the Business Agility Institute. We're a fiercely independent advocacy and research organisation. We've been around for about four years, we don't do consulting, we're funded by our members primarily. Now, one of the very first publications that we put together was something called The Domains of Business Agility. It's not a framework, it doesn't tell you how to do it, it's not like Scrum or SAFe or Beyond Budgeting. Actually, Beyond Budgeting is not quite, if Bjarte heard me call Beyond Budgeting a framework, I'd be in trouble. It's, I think of it, I call it the ‘don't forget' model, because if you're going to change an organisation, these are the domains that you can't forget. The customers at the centre. Around that I would call the relationships, the workforce, your external partners, your vendors and contractors and suppliers, and your Board of Directors, because they represent ownership of the business. Around that are the nine, what I think of as ‘what's domains', right? These are the things that you need to focus on, right, there's leadership domains, individual domains, and so forth. One of them is strategic agility, otherwise known as adaptive strategy or emergent strategy. Now, one of the reasons that is one of the core domains of business agility and has been since 2018, I think, when we first published this, is because this is one of the fundamental capabilities for an organisation to not survive, but to thrive in uncertainty. Now, there are different approaches and, like, there's a whole bunch of different frameworks and approaches to BS, like four quadrant matrixes and tools and canvases. I'm not going to go to any of that, because A, all the tools are fine, right. So, find the one that works for you, Google will be your friend there, but what I want to do is, however, just look at what the characteristics of all those tools, what do they have in common? And I mean, I do that by really telling a little bit of a story. We, one of the things that we run is the Business Agility Conference in New York. It did run every March in New York city until 2020, well actually it ran in 2020. I know the exact date COVID was declared a pandemic because I was literally onstage, because I had to tell our delegates that this was now officially a pandemic, and if you needed to leave early to get flights and so forth, because we had delegates from Denmark and Switzerland, then please feel free to leave and all that kind of thing. Now, this isn't about the conference, but it's about what was happening before the conference. So you had this emergent problem, COVID-19, starting in China, hitting Italy, and I think it was like February 28 or March 1st, thereabouts, the first case hit in America, and it was California, I think it was Orange County, it was the first case. And what happened was we started to see companies change. Now, I describe it, well, sorry, these aren't my words, I'm stealing this from a comic I saw on Facebook at the time, we saw companies responding and companies reacting. Now, this is the difference between strategic agility and non strategic agility. So what was happening, so the first company pulled out from the conference, travel ban, our people can't attend. Within a week we'd lost about 50% of our delegates, right. Now, remember all we know at this point, this isn't the COVID of today, right? All we knew was there was a disease, it was more contagious than the flu, it was deadlier than the flu and it had hit America, right. We didn't know much more than that. We certainly didn't imagine it would be two years later and we're still dealing with it. I remember thinking at the time it's like, all right, we'll have a plan for like September, we'll do something in September, we'll be fine by then, and a famous last words. But companies had to make a decision. Every company didn't have a choice, you were forced to make a decision. Now, the decisions were, like, do I go to a conference or not? Right. Do I ban travel for my employees? Do we work from home? But that decision came later, but there was a first decision to make and, you know what, there's no, there was no difference between companies, those companies that responded and reacted made the first decision the same, right. It's what came next, right. Those companies that were reacting, because every day there was something new that came up, a new piece of information, more infections, a new city, new guidance from the World Health Organisation or the CDC, and companies had to make decisions every single day. And those that were reacting, took the information of the day and made the decision. Those that were responding, took the decision they made yesterday, the new information, looked at the pathway that was emerging, that's that emergent strategy out of it and made the next decision. And so those strategic decisions that they were making as an organisation were built on the ones that came before, rather than discreet decision after decision after decision after decision. And so what ended up happening is you had those companies who were able to build a coherent strategy on insufficient information that grew and adapted and emerged as new information emerged, were better able to respond to the pandemic than those that were chaotically making decisions. And you could see that in something as simple as how quickly they could start working from home, or how quickly they made the decision to work from home, because those that responded, they had this thread of strategy, and so they were able to make the decision to work from home much faster, and then they were able to execute on that much faster. Whereas those that were not, did not. And I think of this as going to the agile gym, or business agility gym, no company was prepared for the pandemic. No company had a strategy paper of, if there's a worldwide pandemic, these are the things that we're going to do. But those companies that have practiced emergent strategy, right, in their product, in how they engage with the marketplace, they'd sort of, they'd taken concepts like lean startup and adopted some of those practices into their organisation. Those who had been to the agile gym, they knew how to respond. They weren't prepared for the scale of pandemic, no one had done emergent strategy at that scale, but they knew, they had the muscle memory, they knew how to do it, and so they just scaled up and operated in that new context. And it's like literally going to the gym, it's, if I build up my muscles, I mean, I definitely don't go to the gym enough, but if I did, right, I could lift more weights. So if a friend goes, hey mate, can you help me move a fridge, right, I'm able to do that because I have the capabilities in my body to do that. If I don't go to the gym, which I don't, not enough, right, and my mate goes, hey, can you help me move a fridge? It's like, I can help, but I'm not going to be that much help. It's, I'll stop it from tilting, right. I'm not going to be the lifter, right. So, the capabilities of that business agility enabled that emergent strategy or the responsiveness during a pandemic, even though no one was prepared for it. And that's kind of really what I see as organisations as they adjust to this new world.  Ula Ojiaku  Now you have this book, actually you've authored a couple of books at the very least, you know, there's #noprojects – A Culture of Continuous Value and Directing the Agile Organisation: A Lean Approach to Business Management Which one would you want us to discuss?   Evan Leybourn  So #noprojects is the most recent book, Directing the Agile Organisation is definitely based on my experience, it's drawing upon that experience back in 2008, I started writing it in 2009. It is out of date, the ideas that are in that book are out of date, I wouldn't suggest anyone reads it unless you're more interested in history. There are ideas, so sometimes I'll talk about the difference between business agility and agile business, where business agility is definitely, it's creating this space where things can happen properly through values and culture and practices and processes. But also it's very human, it's very focused on the outcomes, whereas agile business is more, how do we apply Scrum to marketing teams? And so my first book is unfortunately much more agile business than business agility.   Ula Ojiaku  Okay, so let's go to #noprojects then. There is a quote in a review of the book that says, OK, the metrics by which we have historically defined success are no longer applicable.  We need to re-examine how value is delivered in the new economy. What does that mean, what do you mean by that?   Evan Leybourn  So, the reason I wrote the #noprojects book, and this predates the Institute. So, this is back when I was a consultant. I've run a transformation programme for a large multinational organisation and their project management process was overwhelming. Everything was a project, the way they structured their organisation was that the doers were all contractors or vendors, every employee was a Project Manager. And so what ended up happening was they've got this project management process and it would take, I'm not exaggerating nine months, 300 and something signatures to start a project, even if that project was only like six weeks long. There were cases where the project management cost was seven to eight times the cost of the actual execution. Now that's an extreme case, certainly, and not all were that ratio, but that was kind of the culture of the organisation, and they were doing it to try and manage risk and ensure outcomes, and there's a whole bunch of logical fallacies and business fallacies in that, but that's another matter altogether, but what was happening is they were like, I'm going to focus in on one issue. I said there were many, but one issue was they valued output over outcome. They valued getting a specific piece of work, a work package completed to their desired expectations and they valued that more than the value that that work would produce. And I've seen this in my career for decades, where you'd run a project, again, I used to be a Project Manager, I'm going back like Prince2, you've got this benefits realisation phase at the end of the project. The Project Manager's gone, the project team is gone, the project sponsor is still around, but they're onto whatever's next. Half the time benefits realisation fell to the responsibility of finance to go, okay, did we actually get the value out of that project? And half the time they never did it, in fact more than half the time they never actually did it. It was just a yes, tick. And for those of you who have written business cases, the benefits that you define in the business cases are ridiculous half the time, they pluck it from the air, it's this bloody assumption that, hey, if we do this, it'll be better. I've seen business cases where it's like, we will save $10 million for this organisation by making like page reloads, half a second faster. So every employee will get three minutes back in their day, three minutes times how many employees, times how average salary equals $10 million. It's like how are you going to use that three minutes in some productive way? Is that actually a benefit or are you just trying to upgrade your system, and you're trying to convince finance that they need to let go of the purse strings so that you can do something that you want to do. So if we actually care about the value of things, then we should be structuring the work, not around the outcome, sorry, not around the output, but around the value, we should be incrementally measuring value, we should be measuring the outcome on a regular basis. Agile, we should be delivering frequently, measuring the value, and if we're not achieving the value that we're expecting, well, that's a business decision, right. What do we do with that piece of information? And sometimes it may be continue, because we need to do this, other times it may be, is there a better way to do this? And once you're locked into that traditional project plan, then sure, you might be agile inside the project plan, you might have sprints and Scrum and dev ops and all that kind of stuff, but if you can't change the business rationale as quickly as you can change the technology like the sprint backlog, then what's the point?  Ula Ojiaku  So you mentioned something and I know that some of the listeners or viewers might be wondering what's business outcome versus output? Can you define that?   Evan Leybourn  So, there is a definition in the book, which I wrote like six years ago. So I'm going to paraphrase because I don't remember exactly the words that I wrote, but an output is the thing, the product, the tangible elements of what is created, right. In writing a book, the output is the book. In this podcast, the output is the recording, the podcast that we're doing right now, the outcome and the impact is what we want to achieve from it. So, the output of the podcast is we have a recording, but if no one listens to it, then why? The outcome is that, well, the ultimate outcome is changing hearts and minds. Well, at least that's why I'm here. We want to create some kind of change or movements in, well in your case with your listeners, in the case of the book, the readers, we want to create a new capability, a new way of looking at the world, a new way of doing things. And so the outcome is, hopefully measurable, but not always. But it is that goal, that intent.   Ula Ojiaku  Exactly. So, I mean, for me, outcomes are like, what they find valuable, it's either you're solving and helping them solve a problem or putting them in a position, you know, to get to achieve some gains. Now let's just, are there any other books you might want to recommend to the audience, that have impacted you or influenced you?  Evan Leybourn  Yep. So I'm going to recommend three books. Two are very old books. So the first book is Deming, or actually anything by Deming, but Out of the Crisis is probably the best one, the first one, otherwise The New Economics. Deming is coming out of lean and manufacturing and the Japanese miracle, but he might've been writing in the eighties, seventies, but it's as agile as it gets, right. His 14 points for managers reads like something that would emerge from the Agile Manifesto, right. So I definitely love, I will go to Deming quite regularly in terms of just great concepts and the articulation of it.  The other book that I recommend for the idea, I have to admit it's a bit of a hard read, is The Goal by Eliyahu Goldratt. The Theory of Constraints, and if you Google Evan's Theory of Agile Constraints, and I think we're almost out of time, so I don't really have time to talk about it, but it's the Theory of Constraints, both in a practical sense as to how you actually optimise a process, but it also applies when you're looking at it from a holistic metaphorical standpoint, because I like to say, there is a constraint to agility in your organisation. You're only as agile as your least agile function, and it's not it IT software anymore, it's some other part of your business. You might have a sprint that can create a potentially shippable product increment every two weeks, but if it takes you three months to get a hiring ticket, or nine months get a budget change approved or six weeks to, until the next project control board, you're not, your agility is not measured in weeks. Your agility is still measured in months. Yeah. So Theory of Constraints, the book's a bit hard to read, it's definitely dated, but the concept is so powerful.   Evan Leybourn  So the last one that I'm going to recommend is, Sooner Safer Happier by Jon Smart. It's a relatively recent book. I, it's the book I've read most recently, which is partly why it's on the top of my mind. It is a very powerful, it really touches to the human sense of agility. It's in the title - Sooner Safer Happier, sooner is a technical value, right. Safer, happier, right? These are more than that, these are human values, these are human benefits. I know I said  three, but I'm just going to add a fourth, one more for the road. It comes to what I was talking about early in terms of my own experiences as a leader. And the book didn't exist at the time, but Dare to Lead by Brené Brown. Growth mindset is a bit of a buzzword these days, and there are definitely more mindsets than just growth and fixed. There are different kinds of mindsets that we hold, but just as a way of getting people to understand that you don't have to have all the answers, that you don't have to be right. So the reason I was arrogant, I was called arrogant by my boss at the time was because I didn't have a growth mindset. I didn't know I was wrong, or I didn't know what I didn't know. And it took some poking to make myself realise that I need to open up and I needed to be willing to learn because I didn't have all the answers. And the assumption that as a manager, as a leader, you're meant to have all the answers is a very toxic, cultural, systemic problem. So I think Brené Brown and the growth mindset work Dare to Lead is such a powerful concept that the more we can get people sort of internalising it, the better.  Ula Ojiaku  So thank you for that. How can the audience engage with you? Where can they find you?   Evan Leybourn  Yep. So, LinkedIn is probably the easiest way. I'm just Evan Leybourn, I think I'm the only Evan Leybourn on the planet, so I should be fairly easy to find. Otherwise, look at businessagility.institute We have a very comprehensive library of case studies and references, research that we've published, the models, like the domains that we have a new behavioural model that's coming out fairly soon, and you can always reach me through the Business Agility Institute as well.   Ula Ojiaku  Okay. And for like leaders and organisations that want to engage with the Business Agility Institute, would there be any, are there any options for them, with respect to that?  Evan Leybourn  So individuals can become individual members, it's 50 bucks a year, that's our COVID pricing. We cut it by 50%, at the beginning of COVID, because a lot of people are losing their jobs and we wanted to make it possible, easier for them to maintain as members. That gives you access to like, full access to everything. We publish books as well, so you can actually download full eBooks of the ones that we've published, and also obviously supports us and helps us grow and helps us keep doing more. We are however primarily funded by our corporate members, so it's what we call journey companies, those companies who are on the journey to business agility. So TD bank and DBS bank, for example, are two of our members, Telstra in Australia. So there is value in corporate membership and I'm not going to do a sales pitch if you are, if you want to know more, reach out to me and I'll definitely give you the sales pitch.  Ula Ojiaku  Awesome. Well, thank you so much. These will be in the show notes, and I want to say thank you so much, Evan, for making the time for this conversation. I definitely learned a lot and it was a pleasure having you here.   Evan Leybourn  Thank you. I really appreciate being here.   That's all we have for now. Thanks for listening. If you liked this show, do subscribe at www.agileinnovationleaders.com or your favourite podcast provider. Also share with friends and do leave a review on iTunes. This would help others find this show. I'd also love to hear from you, so please drop me an email at ula@agileinnovationleaders.com Take care and God bless!   

In each episode, Paddy deep dives into a new human Superpower and practical advice on how you can apply it immediately. ⚡️ Essential Guide to Achieving Business Agility Business agility is an increasingly important concept in today's rapidly changing business environment. With the need to rapidly adapt to new challenges, organizations need to be able to respond quickly and efficiently to changing market conditions. Business agility provides the capacity to rapidly adjust to the environment and maintain a competitive edge. It is a key factor in ensuring the success of any business. In this guide, we will explore what business agility is, how it can be measured, and how to use it to your advantage. Evan Leybourn (Founder & CEO Business Agility Institute) "Serving the next-generation of companies to thrive with uncertainty" Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next-generation of organizations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today's unpredictable markets. His experience while holding senior leadership and board positions in both private industry and government has driven his work in business agility and he regularly speaks on these topics at local and international industry conferences. As well as leading the Business Agility Institute, Evan is also the author of Directing the Agile Organization (2012) and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value (2018).

Organizational Agility is what every C-Suite in the world is hoping to achieve. They want to respond to change faster, make decisions faster, remove blockers faster and provide world-class solutions for their customers while doing it. In this episode of Unlocking Agile, Bobby sits down with Evan Leybourn, founder of the Business Agility Institute, and talks about the latest in the Business Agility space including the recently released 5 domains of Business Agility.

I spoke with Evan again at the Business Agility Conference 2022.  Evan is the founder of the Business Agility Institute, runs the Business Agility Conference.  We speak about the evolution of the conference into a hybrid event.  We also talk about the research that they have engaged in regarding the 86 behaviours of Agile organizations. I always love talking with Evan and this conversation was no different. Enjoy - Bob Payne

“Business agility is about finding the constraints in the system” – Evan Leybourn, Business Agility Institute founderWhere do most teams and departments in an organization encounter constraints? They encounter it in management, the budgeting process driven by finance and the performance management process driven by HR. When management and finance are about control, teams are constrained and the organization cannot be adaptive. E.g. no (or not enough) budget to hire the people when they need it, get the equipment and supplies in time, have the flexibility to try things out, etc. In this podcast series, we explore with Bjarte Bogsnes how beyond budgeting enables an organization to achieve business agility. Though this journey isn't for the faint of heart, companies like Tesla and Equinor (formerly StatOil) are doing this today – and are being very successful at it.

“Business agility is about finding the constraints in the system” – Evan Leybourn, Business Agility Institute founderWhere do most teams and departments in an organization encounter constraints? They encounter it in management, the budgeting process driven by finance and the performance management process driven by HR. When management and finance are about control, teams are constrained and the organization cannot be adaptive. E.g. no (or not enough) budget to hire the people when they need it, get the equipment and supplies in time, have the flexibility to try things out, etc. In this podcast series, we explore with Bjarte Bogsnes how beyond budgeting enables an organization to achieve business agility. Though this journey isn't for the faint of heart, companies like Tesla and Equinor (formerly StatOil) are doing this today – and are being very successful at it.

“Business agility is about finding the constraints in the system” – Evan Leybourn, Business Agility Institute founderWhere do most teams and departments in an organization encounter constraints? They encounter it in management, the budgeting process driven by finance and the performance management process driven by HR. When management and finance are about control, teams are constrained and the organization cannot be adaptive. E.g. no (or not enough) budget to hire the people when they need it, get the equipment and supplies in time, have the flexibility to try things out, etc. In this podcast series, we explore with Bjarte Bogsnes how going beyond the budgeting constraints helps an organization achieve business agility. Though this journey isn't for the faint of heart, companies like Tesla and Equinor (formerly StatOil) are doing this today – and are being very successful at it.

Welcome to the Living Room Conversations by LIVEsciences! We have seen the catalytic power of conversations in the work that we do, as well as the impact that it brings to our world. Our Living Room is a space for us to connect, to explore thoughts and learnings, in a relaxed and very human way. Through this channel, we look forward to an engaging dialogue and resonance with our guests, and bring a breath of fresh air to the space we occupy in this virtual world. To our listeners and followers, we hope to create an opportunity to candidly eavesdrop and chime in to one of the many interesting conversations around the space of teal, agile and the future of work. Our guest, Evan Leybourn, ss the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next-generation of organisations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today's unpredictable markets. Stay tuned for our next Living Room Conversations.

“Business agility is about finding the constraints in the system” - Evan Leybourn, Business Agility Institute founder.Where do most teams and departments in an organization encounter constraints? They encounter it in management, the budgeting process driven by finance and the performance management process driven by HR. When management and finance are about control, teams are constrained and the organization cannot be adaptive. E.g. no (or not enough) budget to hire the people when they need it, get the equipment and supplies in time, have the flexibility to try things out, etc. In this podcast series, we explore with Bjarte Bogsnes how going beyond the budgeting constraints helps an organization achieve business agility. Though this journey isn't for the faint of heart, companies like Tesla and Equinor (formerly StatOil) are doing this today - and are being very successful at it. 

“Business agility is about finding the constraints in the system” - Evan Leybourn, Business Agility Institute founder.Where do most teams and departments in an organization encounter constraints? They encounter it in management, the budgeting process driven by finance and the performance management process driven by HR. When management and finance are about control, teams are constrained and the organization cannot be adaptive. E.g. no (or not enough) budget to hire the people when they need it, get the equipment and supplies in time, have the flexibility to try things out, etc. In this podcast, we explore with Bjarte Bogsnes how going beyond the budgeting constraints helps an organization achieve business agility. Though this journey isn't for the faint of heart, companies like Tesla and Equinor (formerly StatOil) are doing this today - and are being very successful at it. 

Agile began in software but has evolved to impact every part of the business. Now business agility is seen as a way for organizations not just to create better products but also to run more effectively overall — regardless of what comes their way. Our guests discuss the evolution to business agility as we see it today. Jason Novack is the global lead of the Accenture Business Agility practice (formerly Accenture | SolutionsIQ), and Evan Leybourn is the founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute. They share what they are seeing in the world both from a business perspective (a greater interest in bringing agility into governance and portfolio management) and a human perspective. As Leybourn puts it, “We spend more time working than any other part of our life … If work isn't one of the best parts of our life, that's a waste of human potential.” Accenture's William Rowden hosts.

In the third series of #AgileWay podcast I'm having a conversation with Agile Prague Conference speakers about the topic they are passionate about, what did they learn on their agile journey, and where they see a future of Agile. Evan Leybourn is our keynote speaker from Australia and he is going to talk about The Shape of Agility. If you find the conversation interesting, join Agile Prague Conference Sep 19-20, 2022, and get real face-to-face experience in Prague. See more at agileprague.com.

On the new episode of Leadership at the edge, the Institute of Leadership & Management's CEO, John Mark Williams, joined by business agility expert and CEO of the Business Agility Institute, Evan Leybourn, explore the challenges and opportunities of business agility in the current climate, adopting agile behaviours to cope with the new ways of working, and the shape and direction of organisational agility in the future. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/leadership-at-the-edge/message

There is nothing easier, in the short term, than doing nothing. Nothing more appealing than the Status quo. But purpose, innovation, and progress never occurs by sitting still. It happens when purpose is aligned to action. And for organisations, breaking down resistance to change, is one of the most important steps towards creating value for your customers - no matter what the future brings.

Business agility represents the continuous and purposeful change you make to deliver more value to your customers and gain a competitive edge. Very often, we use frameworks that guide how to be more agile. The list of frameworks is endless and full of acronyms, like SCRUM, XP, SaFe, and many more. It can be tempting to select a framework that looks good and start using it. However, there are downsides to that approach. In today's podcast, I speak with Evan Leybourn, Co-founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute. We talk about why agility can increase revenues, improve team performance, and retain employees. Evan shares the approach you should take to define what agility means to your organization and balance that with the various frameworks available to you.

“Business agility is a set of organizational capabilities, behaviors, and ways of working that afford your business the freedom, flexibility, and resilience to achieve its purpose, no matter what the future brings." Evan Leybourn is the founder and CEO of Business Agility Institute. In this episode, Evan shared about the current maturity of agile adoption and how agile has matured over the years by looking at 3 different agility categories, including business agility. Evan then explained further what business agility means, and his interesting story of why he started the Business Agility Institute. He then explained in-depth the concept of business agility domains, a model comprising 12 different interacting domains across four dimensions centred around the customer. We then discussed his theory of agile constraints and Evan shared his insights on why he thinks Agile and DevOps transformations are currently hitting diminishing returns and how we should address it by continuously finding the constraint to solve. Evan also touched on and shared about the recent Business Agility Institute research finding on why many agile organizations unconsciously fail to embed and support Diversity, Equality, and Inclusion (DEI) within the organizations. Listen out for: Career Journey - [00:04:56] Current Maturity of Agile Adoption - [00:09:24] Business Agility - [00:16:57] Business Agility Institute - [00:21:15] Agile & DEI - [00:27:45] Business Agility Domains - [00:30:59] Theory of Agile Constraints - [00:40:28] 3 Tech Lead Wisdom - [00:46:45] _____ Evan Leybourn's Bio Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support next-generation organisations: Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today's unpredictable markets. As well as leading the Business Agility Institute, Evan is also the author of Directing the Agile Organisation (2012) and #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value (2018). Follow Evan: Website – https://businessagility.institute/ LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanleybourn/ Twitter – https://twitter.com/eleybourn Our Sponsor Are you looking for a new cool swag? Tech Lead Journal now offers you some swags that you can purchase online. These swags are printed on-demand based on your preference, and will be delivered safely to you all over the world where shipping is available. Check out all the cool swags by visiting https://techleadjournal.dev/shop. Like this episode? Subscribe on your favorite podcast app and submit your feedback. Follow @techleadjournal on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Pledge your support by becoming a patron. For more info about the episode (including quotes and transcript), visit techleadjournal.dev/episodes/46.

In this episode I have a pleasure to talk with my first guest in this podcast Evan Leybourn the founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute. We talked about how to work with communities, what aspects are important in modern organizations, and how business agility is needed to help you be ready to whatever future brings.

In this podcast recorded at the Agile Christchurch conference, Shane Hastie, Lead Editor for Culture & Methods, spoke to Evan Leybourn about the characteristics of agile organisations and how they respond to disruption. Listen to the podcast for more. Curated transcript and more information on the https://bit.ly/3sOEC3c Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Youtube: @InfoQ Follow us on Instagram: @infoqdotcom Stay informed on emerging trends, peer-validated early adoption of technologies, and architectural best practices. Subscribe to The Software Architects’ Newsletter: www.infoq.com/software-architects-newsletter/

Evan Leybourn is the founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute, an international membership body to both champion and support the next generation of organizations. He joins us to discuss the key findings from this year’s Business Agility Report, their annual flagship research study revealing where organizations around the globe are in their business agility journey. Interestingly, this year’s survey responses were collected in the time period preceding and through the first few months of the COVID-19 pandemic, providing a unique view into the impact of a global disruption while it was happening. “Those companies that drop the ball now and don’t start making a difference to their agility, when the next crisis comes - and there will be another crisis - they’re going to be at square one. And those who keep it going, they’re the ones who will not only survive but thrive.” Accenture | SolutionsIQ’s Alalia Lundy hosts. Download 2020 Business Agility Report Become a member of the Business Agility Institute: businessagility.institute/join/ Accenture | SolutionsIQ is a founding member of the Business Agility Institute. The Agile Amped podcast is the shared voice of the Agile community, driven by compelling stories, passionate people, and innovative ideas. Together, we are advancing the impact of business agility. Podcast library: www.agileamped.com Connect with us on social media!
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LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/solutionsiq/

In this episode of let's talk Evan and I discuss Business Agility research and practice, and the role of Agility in shaping organisations. Evan shares his insight from years of experience and research on Agile organisations and the role of leadership and strategy in navigating the constraints and opportunities of uncertainty. The main insights you will get from this episode : The importance of strategic agility and the ability to respond to change. The vital role of leaders in enabling agility Ensuring that growth mindset is being developed at all levels of the organisation is pivotal to pushing through cultural resistance You don't need certainty if you have agility An organisation is only as agile as it's least agile part Identifying constraints is key to understanding where you should be investing in transformation.

In this episode we talk to Evan Leybourn, founder of the Business Agility Institute. We talk about Business Agility. What does it mean? How does it help organizations? What are pitfalls? And why do certain organizations do better during COVID-19 then others?

Evan has over 15 years in business leadership and a proven track record of innovation.Having specialized in Business Agility over the last 15 years, Evan has been a senior IT executive and business management consultant in both the public and private...

Joe Krebs speaks with Evan Leybourn about the characteristics of business agility versus agile in business and the challenges organizations face aiming for more business agility. He is the founder of the research group and member based organization called “Business Agility Institute” and the organizer of the business agility conference. which shares insights from the research with their members.

Evan Leybourn is the founder of the research group and member based organization called "Business Agility Institute". He is also one of the organizers of the business agility conference which shares insights from the research with their members. He was also instrumental in the creation of the business agility track for ICAgile, the first of its kind in the world. In this episode we speak about the characteristics of business agility versus agile in business and the challenges organizations face aiming for more business agility.

I talk to Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute about business agility, leadership, governance, and the continuing evolution of the Change Manager.

Even Leybourn is the founder of the Business Agility Institute: https://businessagility.institute The 2020 NYC business agility conference: https://businessagility.institute/attend/business-agility-conference-11-12-march-2020-new-york-city/

SPaMCAST 578 features our interview with Evan Leybourn. Evan and I discussed HR Guilds and news from the Business Agility Institute. Evan last visited the podcast on SPaMCAST 478 as the Business Agility Institute was just being formed.  Two years later it is going strong and helping change how business is done.  Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next generation of organizations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today’s unpredictable markets. The BAI connects leaders across industries and regions to share their experiences and insights with each other. The flagship event, the Business Agility Conference will run in New York March on 11 and 12, 2020. Evan is also the author of Directing the Agile Organisation and #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value. Business Agility Institute: http://businessagility.institute/ HR Guild - https://businessagility.institute/hr-guild/ BAI Members - https://businessagility.institute/join/individual-membership/?level=1 Business Agility Conference Dates: March 11-12, 2020 Location: New York City, 117 West 46th Street The Business Agility Conference is an intense 2-day event focusing on the future of business, focusing on customer centricity, employee engagement, organization design, product innovation, and next-gen leadership. We are bringing together some of the greatest speakers and practitioners of business agility to share their experiences and the benefits their organizations have gained from exploring new and agile practices.  This year’s speakers include current and prior executives from Zappos, Amazon, Pacific Life Insurance, and Scrum Alliance, the Chair of the Board of CHOICE, as well as thought-leaders from Menlo Innovations, Freddie Mac, and AgilityHealth. URL: http://bit.ly/2SmOJMS  Special Discount For SPaMCAST Listeners:  spamcast - 20% discount Re-Read Saturday News In this week’s installment of our re-read of Thinking, Fast and Slow we talk about keeping score!  Mental accounts and keeping score impact the decisions that we make. Keeping score and the potential for regret support the status quo and fosters resistance to change. Remember, if you do not have a favorite, dog-eared copy of Thinking, Fast and Slow, please buy a copy.  Using the links in this blog entry helps support the blog and its alter-ego, The Software Process and Measurement Cast. Buy a copy on Amazon,  It’s time to get reading! The current installment of Re-read Saturday is: Week 32: Keeping Score - http://bit.ly/3941Atp  Next SPaMCAST SPaMCAST 579 will feature our essay on fear-driven agile hybrids.  Most hybridization issues stem from techniques that conflict with the framework and/or agile principles due to clashes with culture or lack of knowledge.  Let’s explore why when context demands, the right techniques can be used to augment the framework. We will also have a visit from Jeremy Berriault from QA Corner.

SPaMCAST 577 features our essay on approaches to backlog prioritization. Today we will share some background and a simple approach because sometimes a straightforward approach will fit the bill! Also this week, Susan Parente joins the cast with an installment of her Not a Scrumdamentalist column.  Susan discusses agile myths. Re-Read Saturday News In this week’s installment of our re-read of Thinking, Fast and Slow we talk about risk policies. The concept of risk policies dovetails quite nicely with our discussion of story and portfolio prioritization.    Remember, if you do not have a favorite, dog-eared copy of Thinking, Fast and Slow, please buy a copy.  Using the links in this blog entry helps support the blog and its alter-ego, The Software Process and Measurement Cast. Buy a copy on Amazon,  It’s time to get reading! The current installment of Re-read Saturday: Week 31: Chapter 31: Risk Policies - http://bit.ly/2RWEqin  Next SPaMCAST SPaMCAST 578 features the return of Evan Leybourn.  Evan and I discussed HR Guilds and news from the Business Agility Institute. 

Read the full Show Notes and search through the world’s largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website.  What is Business Agility? In a time where it seems that every company wants to adopt Agile, there’s also the dark side of Agile: the belief that it only affects “people in the IT department”. That could not be further from the truth.  In this episode, we have Evan Leybourn sharing what Business Agility is about, and why it matters for your organization.  About Evan Leybourn Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next-generation of organisations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today’s unpredictable markets. His experience while holding senior leadership and board positions in both private industry and government has driven his work in business agility and he regularly speaks on these topics at local and international industry conferences. As well as leading the Business Agility Institute, Evan is also the author of Directing the Agile Organisation (2012) and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value (2018). You can link with Evan Leybourn on LinkedIn and connect with Evan Leybourn on Twitter.

Evan worked in private and government on and off in his career. He worked for brands like IBM and BHP. At one point he had a 15 person consulting business until he made the fatal mistake of pricing incorrectly. He is now on a mission to help consultants and corporations to achieve their goals through agility. This is a great podcast and one not to miss.   Important Links & Mentions From This Episode: Masters of Scale — hosted by Reid Hoffman Toodledo Kurzgesagt – In a Nutshell - YouTube Connect With Evan Leybourn On Linkedin On Twitter: @eleybourn Website: http://theagiledirector.com/ Book: Directing the Agile Organisation Connect With Paul and Build Live Give On LinkedIn On Twitter: @BuildLiveGive On Facebook On Instagram: @BuildLiveGive   Thank You for Tuning In! If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with others. Also, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and on Stitcher to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

I switch seats and let Evan Leybourn interview Sanjiv Augustine and me about the Business Agility Sparks framework we have published from LitheSpeed We are excited to be promoting the cause of Business Agility with Evan and look forward to the Business Agility Conference in NYC. For more on the Business Agility Sparks and the Business Agility Conference Visit the following links. Business Agility Sparks Business Agility Conference - NYC Enjoy  Bob Payne

Today on the Agile Coaches’ Corner, Dan Neumann is joined by Ryan Dorrell, the Chief Solutions Officer, and one of the co-founders of AgileThought. He leads the strategic design of their portfolio of offerings and services across their practice areas, focusing on understanding what the future looks like for their clients and how they can best serve them.   In this episode, Dan and Ryan explore the topic of product management. Ryan explains what it is, the ideal skill set and thinking that goes into it, the benefits, and his own tips and techniques around it. He also goes in-depth about the differences between projects vs. products — and why you really should be joining the #noprojects movement!   Key Takeaways What is (software) product management? And what goes into it? A lot of creativity, diverse skill set, and a different mindset around solving problems Continuously delivering value and aligning with products and services that provide to customers Solves a problem in a unique way Engaging with customers for feedback loops Customer journey maps, user story mapping, design thinking, and workshops The benefits of product management: Builds empathy with customers and focuses on understanding their needs Addresses the user experience Helps to make systems more delightful and engaging to use Ryan’s tips and techniques around product management: Go start learning and understanding the aspect of taking products to market Be prepared to learn a lot of new skills and techniques ● Projects vs. Products: A project is a temporary endeavor (to create a product or service) with a deadline A product satisfies a need, a want, or solves a problem and continuously evolves with customers/users feedback With product management, there is less focus on timesheets and more focus on the product itself Projects stop and start, while products respond to change Mentioned in this Episode: Chris Spagnuolo Twitter (products vs. projects): #NoProjects Ryan Dorrell’s Book Picks User Story Mapping: Discover the Whole Story, Build the Right Product, by Jeff Patton Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework, by Mik Kersten #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value, by Evan Leybourn and Shane Hastie INSPIRED: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love, by Marty Cagan Mapping Experiences: A Complete Guide to Creating Value through Journeys, Blueprints, and Diagrams, by James Kalbach Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

Business Agility Institute founder Evan Leybourn shares results from the 2018 Business Agility report at Agile2018. Connect with Evan on Twitter: @Eleybourn Download the Business Agility Report (2018). Add your voice to this report: Take the Business Agility Survey for 2019's report here. Follow @AgileToolkit. Visit LitheSpeed.com to help your organization embrace Business Agility.   Transcript: Evan Leybourn ‑ Agile2018   Announcer:  The Agile Toolkit. [music] Bob Payne:  I'm your host, Bob Payne. I'm here with Evan Leybourn from Australia. Evan, you're ahead of the Business Agility Institute, and you guys just released the Business Agility report today, you're at Agile 2018. I was leafing through it. There's a lot of great infographics and information behind those infographics. Do you want to just talk about how you went about getting the report? Then, maybe we can talk about some of the interesting results. Evan Leybourn:  Thanks, Bob. It's great to talk to you again. I absolutely love being on this podcast. I think it's my third time now. [laughs] Bob:  Is it third already? Evan:  Third already. Bob:  [laughs] Evan:  Third already. We put together the reports over the last couple of months based on the feedback we had from our members. A lot of people were asking for evidence. There's a lot of hearsay. There's a lot of anecdotes about business agility, and they wanted more proof. How does it work? Why does it work? Who does it work for? We went out, and we started sourcing information. We put out a survey. We'll share the link with your listeners in the text below the podcast. We got some fantastic insights which, I'll be honest, not many surprises. Most of the anecdotes that we hear, the data has borne it out, so that's actually pretty fantastic. Bob:  If not surprising, what are some of the important insights that folks were questioning and that now has been borne out in the data? Evan:  [laughs] We can probably narrow it down. I'll give you the really simple ones. The larger the company is, the less agile it is. I don't think that's a surprise to anybody at all. Bob:  [laughs] Evan:  Now, we have the data to show just how much more agile a small company is. In fact, we're doing some additional research now in terms of company thresholds, the size of organizations, and the operating model that's required for agility at those sizes. 15 to 50, 50 to 150, how do those sizes interface with agility, the practices, and the principles behind that? We know that agile organizations work differently. We know there are benefits, but how does size... If I'm 5‑person organization, then how I do agility is has to be different if I'm a 5,000‑person organization. We want to be able to outline that this generic information about X, Y, and Z, this is how it's specifically tailored to every size. Industries' wise, financial services, information technology and consulting, the top three industries who are adopting business agility right now. Both in terms of the quantity of organizations doing it as well as the maturity or the fluency that those organizations have. That's not really a surprise. We know from personal experience that banking and finance, every bank is trying to... Bob:  Huge competitive pressures with dust cycles. Evan:  FinTech eating their breakfast as they say. IT companies, Agile emerging technology and software. It's natural for these organizations to expand beyond the IT early, certainly earlier than other organizations. Consulting was a bit of a surprise. I wasn't expecting them in the top three. In fact they're number one to be precise. Now, cynical Evan thinks that, "Well, maybe the consulting organizations are just sort of..." Bob:  Self‑reporting a little higher. [laughs] Evan:  Self‑reporting a little higher because they're trying to say, "Hey, look how great we are." Less cynical Evan actually there's some logic behind it because consultants do need to be at the bleeding edge of business. If they're going to be transforming the client organizations, they've already got to be there. It does make sense that a lot of these consultancies are pushing the boundaries as much as they can. I think that's a natural behavior. Bob:  Did you get any breakout that was aggregated against those different industries? Were different moods of business agility? Evan:  No. Bob:  Was it really customer pitted or service or...? Evan:  We did slice and dice. We had some data scientists look at this information for us. They're the ones who provide a lot of the insights. We wanted to make sure that we were doing it meaningfully, specifically meaningfully. When we looked at the data, whether we sliced it at the company size, whether we sliced it by industry, not by industry, by company size or by high fluency, if we remove just the high fluency run the ones who are 9s and 10s, the outliers. Even if we normalize for who's reporting, whether it's the CEO reporting or an individual contributor because there was a difference. Even after all the slicing, those three industry still came out as 1, 2 and 3 so no matter how we sliced the data. It was pretty consistent actually. In fact, I mentioned that contributors, that was one of the few surprises that we got. Anecdotally, I assumed that the C‑Suite would over‑report and the individual contributors would under‑report maturity or fluency in business agility. We actually found that, because we had multiple respondents from the same company, in a single organization we thought they'd be different, but they were actually within 0.5 of a point from each other. Bob:  That's probably... Evan:  It's statistically... Bob:  ...insignificant. Evan:  ...insignificant. Now, there is a trend. Yes, the CEO is 0.5 higher than the individual contributors and line managers and senior leaders. Senior executives fall on that trend line, but it's quite negligible. The big surprise was we invited external consultants to assess the maturity, the business agility, fluency of their client organizations. They were about 15 percent lower on average. Bob:  The client organizations. Evan:  Yes. When the external parties assessed them, they assessed them 15 points lower. 1.5 points lower, 15 percent lower than themselves. Bob:  That may make sense with your transformational model... Evan:  It could. Bob:  ...as well, because I can't really help unless I'm in some aspects better at it than the organization. Evan:  Yeah, it's interesting. We need to do some further investigation as to why that's the case. My gut feeling is that there's probably two main reasons. The first being the rose‑colored glasses that happen within an organization. You see the transformation, you see you're making change, and it looks a little bit better, but the people from the outside are comparing you against... Bob:  Other people. Evan:  ...other people who are better. As an outsider, what you rate as a five, I rate as a three, just because I'm seeing that's a five over there. The inverse is also true. Bob:  We probably have different north stars that we're measuring against. Evan:  That's it. Maybe someone who's outside doesn't see a lot of the good. They're dealing with the procurement processes, they're dealing with the contracting processes, which are painful in almost every organization. They would underreport their client organization because the business agility hasn't hit procurement yet. It's just hit how employees are being engaged. Maybe they're underreporting for that reason as well. Bob:  Was the survey both public and private sector? Evan:  It was actually mostly private sector. We had a small number of respondents from the public sector, two or three percent. Though that data has mostly been excluded from the report just because there wasn't enough data points to meaningfully assess that information. We're hoping that version two of this report will be able to draw the public sector view. Because we are doing the government's Agility Conference in November, I think it would be a good idea to actually maybe create a government version where we survey the government organizations before the conference and maybe put something together for them. Bob:  Even if we have some objectives out of the conference, what do we want people to take away, even if it's a simple survey of, before they attend the conference, after, how much more do they know about business agility, if they're not already executing in that way. I really see, and I know we've talked about this, on the committee calls... [laughter] Bob:  ...the Government Business Agility Conference. It is just the early days in many, many government agencies on the delivery side, and without delivery, you can't turn the crank on the major business outcomes. Evan:  Spot on. I talk a lot about theory of constraints and the theory of...I've probably mentioned this in a previous podcast, but an organization can only be as agile as its least agile part. In business, 30 years ago, that was software, so we invent Agile. 10 years ago, that was operations, so we invent DevOps. Today, in business, it's HR, it's finance... Bob:  [inaudible 10:00] . Evan:  ...but government is probably still where the business was 20 years ago. In many government organizations, they're only now getting the benefits of Agile, let alone DevOps and full‑on business agility which is even in the future. That being said, we have some great stories, some great case studies in the government space around policy developments being done in using Agile, service delivery for social services being delivered using Agile mindsets and techniques around the creation of citizen‑centric approaches. Everything from budget games being done in San Jose, I think it was San Jose. If you Google, you'll find out exactly where it's being run, where they crowdsource the budget from citizens using Agile game theory. It's absolutely fantastic. Bob:  I was just chatting with somebody from a government agency. We were actually talking about using the Colleague Letter of Understanding with the Morningstar as a way of creating a rather hierarchical structure, a mesh commitment structure, within that organization. There're little pockets of these ideas taking hold. Evan:  We have a video from the very first business agility conference in New York in 2017. The deputy CIO of the State of Washington had adopted holacracy in the state government. I used to be a public servant, this is 10 years ago. The thought of holacracy in government was mind‑blowing. I couldn't believe they could even do that. They did and a huge success. Bob:  It can get a little tricky. I don't know if the state governments are the same but federal sometimes gets tricky when you hit the unions. [laughter] Evan:  Yes. In that scenario, in the institute, we're developing some position papers, some white papers on various complex topics. Incentives, motivation reward is a white paper that's being released tomorrow, in fact. By the time you listen to this, it'll already be released, and we'll share the link. One of the next white papers that we're going to put out there is business agility in a unionized environments, because a lot of our members are in united environments that's complex. Bob:  We may often give entities like the bureaucratic...paint them with a bureaucratic brush, but actually another agency that we did some work in, they were partners in creating an open workspace environment for everybody. Bob:  Going back to the report, some of the key findings that we did come up with, market success is one of the highest benefits of business agility, which I would actually be surprised by. Not because I don't believe that business agility brings with it financial and market success measures, but I didn't think as a community that we were there yet. I thought we had a while to go, that the benefits move on softer. Now, we have some great quotes, some great feedback from the survey respondents saying that now they have gained more customers, greater customer satisfaction, more repeat business through the adoption of business agility. The usual ones they are around, better way of working, and so forth. Bob:  Retention of clients. Evan:  Retention of clients, yeah. Bob:  Competitive advantage. I see better ways of working, came in at 16 percent, collaboration, communication, not shocking 14, and engagement up as well. That's what we see in the VersionOne survey on the IT delivery side, that engagement goes up a lot. Evan:  When we look at challenges, the top challenge, which should be of no surprise to anybody, is leadership. Leaders love them, but they can either make or break a transformation based on the culture that they help to instill in an organization. Buy‑in is number two or three in the challenges. What's the next one? That's embarrassing. I don't... Bob:  Just trying to find the page right now. [laughter] Bob:  Leadership, lack of buy‑in, inappropriate organizational design. Evan:  Of course, old design. Sorry, I should remember that one. It's off my head. Basically, the value stream is broken. Bob:  The silos. Evan:  The silos. When work goes from team to team to team, every hand off adds complexity and delays. An agile organization is one where the value stream is as much as possible contained in a single cohesive team. I don't mean a small team, those teams can be big, but the ownership, the accountability is held singly from ideation to customer delivery. Companies still struggle with that, but that's changing. We're seeing that change in companies although even in government organizations. Bob:  Even if you can get a decent alignment of the silos to create those, not solid line report, but dotted line to the value stream, that can go a long ways. In thinking about the market's success statistic, I actually think that makes sense because if we look at the...Again, I don't want to compare you guys, the VersionOne survey, but I'm... [crosstalk] Evan:  ...is due. We've admired the VersionOne survey for years. Bob:  It has been a valuable tool. Evan:  It's one of the reasons we created this is to go [inaudible 15:53] . Bob:  Number one is better ability to manage change. What do markets want? They want responsive goods and services. Evan:  The market will evolve faster than the company. It's why startups can out‑compete a legacy large organization who's got hundred times the budget, a thousand times the market share. They're dominated and overtaken by a tiny startup because the startup is able to adapt and provide a service that the customers want as opposed to what has been delivered for the last 20 or 30 years, which maybe what the customers wanted 30 years ago, but time moves on. I know Uber and Airbnb and everything else. Those examples are trotted out every single time if someone talks about market agility or market entity. Bob:  [inaudible 16:48] . [laughter] Bob:  [inaudible 16:50] is running in my head. Evan:  They're the obvious ones, but it doesn't matter what industry you're in. I spent the last four years living in Singapore, and every bank there had a decent revenue coming out of international remittance, sending money home. Australians, Filipinos, Indians would send money back to their home countries through the banks. Within the space of two years, the FinTechs emerged. They had better, faster, cheaper services, and the banks lost a couple of percent of their top line overnight. Bob:  We get [inaudible 17:23] all the time. That's just one possible transactional character. Evan:  If you put yourself in the shoes of a bank, no one's going to take away the deposit account because that's not a...Maybe I could be lying but I don't think that's a disruptable service, partly because there's no money in a deposit account. Banks make their money out of credit cards and all these transactions, and all these other things, so the FinTechs are coming in. Bob:  They can be in the right market if you've got some liquid cash that you're... [crosstalk] Evan:  That's certainly not where the banks are making their profit. Bob:  No. Evan:  The banks are looking at this going, all of the stuff they're doing that are high profit, the FinTechs can come in and do it better, faster, cheaper. All they're going to be left with is the slow, low‑profit services, like core banking. Now, they're desperately trying to become FinTechs themselves. If I'd walk into a bank 10 years ago and let's say, "Let's create an agile bank," I would've been laughed out. Now, they're coming to us saying, "How do we become an agile bank?" Bob:  "How do we disrupt ourselves before someone else does?" Evan:  That's it. I use banking as an example. The same is true in utilities, the same is true in healthcare, engineering. Any industry which you think is undisruptable, I guarantee you, will be disrupted within five years. Bob:  We're seeing people fall off the Fortune 500 lists. Evan:  57 percent of the 1983 Fortune 500 no longer exists. Bob:  Not even just off the list. Just out of existence. Evan:  Some have been acquired, some have gone through merges, some have gone through divestments. They're a fraction of what they were. Others have gone bankrupt. Some have come out of bankruptcy. They're still nothing. Bob:  We'll have the link to the report. Where can folks learn about the Business Agility Institute? Evan:  Thanks. We'll put the links below, businessagility.institute. I love the fact that .institute is a top‑level domain. Bob:  [laughs] Evan:  We bought that. Bob:  .institutionalized. [laughter] Evan:  That's what I should be. Absolutely. Businessagility.institute, you'll find all the information. We're a membership organization. I do encourage all your listeners to join up as a member. Help support us, help support the community, and develop new and great research. The inverse is true as well. It's not just a one‑way, we'll provide you things. We want you to share your stories with us. If you have a case study, if you would like us to create a white paper on a topic, ask us. We will do our best to actually build that for the community. Bob:  Thank you very much. Evan:  No, thank you very much, Bob. Until next time. Bob:  Until next time. Evan:  [laughs] Thank you. Bob:  The Agile Toolkit Podcast is brought to you by LitheSpeed. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed today's show. If you'd like to give feedback or be on the show, you can ping me on Twitter. I am @agiletoolkit. You can also reach me at bob.payne@lithespeed.com. For more free resources, transcripts of the show and information about our services, head over to lithespeed.com. Thanks for listening. [music]  

BUSINESS AGILITY: Evan Leybourn, founder of the Business Agility Institute and Conference, has been screaming into the void about Business Agility, and the void is finally screaming back.  Evan is building a strong community around business agility across diverse industries, and plans to reclaim business agility from the consultants and marketing folks that keep using the buzzword. Evan sat down with Bob Payne of the Agile Toolkit podcast to discuss. How do you define Business Agility?  How do we de-buzzword it? Hearing so many stories, I came to the position that we don't want a definition.  In this formative stage of Business Agility around the world, whatever definition we put on it is going to limit its ability to be more things to more people, and right now I think that's more important. What we did is we actually put together a Model of Business Agility, about 60 of us working with the community on all the different domains and dimensions that make up Business Agility.  I think that is a better way of visualizing the totality of what it is rather than a sound byte. Outcomes: In the context of software delivery, Agile has been only about the build for a long time and misses the mark of real outcomes for customers, stakeholders, etc... I like to talk about changing the questions. It's not about what something costs, it's about what something is worth.  It's about putting the customer at the center of what you do.  If your KPIs are about earning money, about revenue, you're missing the point. The intent behind why we're in business is often forgotten. An Agile organization is one that has clear measures and KPIs around why they are in business and customer intent.  If you address the customer's need effectively and efficiently, and the customer likes what you're doing, and your reason for existing is sound, customers and profits will come.  Traditional organizations measure the wrong thing.  Agile organizations measure the business-customer outcome.  That's a very clear distinction. What does Business Agility look like? I've been working with industries from banking to mining to retail to IT.  Business Agility is relevant to everyone, it is the next generation of company models.  We talk about matrix organizations, that's the 1980s mindset.  We now that these Agile organizations, dynamic and structured in a way that teams own outcomes.  In fact, in the Business Agility model, one of the key domains is structural agility, and that's incredibly important. If an organization doesn't have the right structure, it's actually going to lose its ability to be Agile.  Every time there's a handoff, every time that a team is created around a function, it loses its ability to be agile.  An Agile organization is one that aligns work and teams to outcomes.  If you have clear organizational outcomes, broken down into achievable outcomes by teams, once you have these ideas of "We're going to change the world of work" or "We're going to get rid of diabetes," whatever your vision is, we can break that down into outcomes.  You might have very tangible ones like "We want to be a great place to work" - how do you measure that?  Retention, staff satisfaction.. and once we have the measures and a proper outcome profile, measures, KPIs, cadence of the measures, feedback loop.. let's create a team that fundamentally works on that outcome.  Literally cross-functional.  I can bring accountants, BAs, developers, and engineers, into a single team if they have the right skills to achieve that business outcome.  Once you have that team, and the team is owning and accountable, I don't care what they do.  The work and projects that they build are irrelevant.  (That's not strictly speaking true...it's actually very important)  But, at an organizational level, that's not my responsibility anymore.  As an organization, it's that team who owns that outcome and that feedback cycle of continuously doing all that is necessary to achieve that business outcome. What big changes have you seen in your client base as you support more companies from a non-IT background?  Where is Business Agility taking root for your clients?  There's a continuous change that's occurring, the evolution of a continuous culture that has emerged around the world.  This idea of continuous change, continuous feedback, continuous delivery, continuous everything.  Companies that are able to work in this model are fundamentally able to be Agile, to be an Agile company.  Traditional companies that have not had that mindset are being disrupted by this continuous culture and change.  They are the ones who are most likely, most in need of making this transition toward business agility.  So from an industry perspective, Banking and Finance is huge right now. When we do their organizational strategy and we help them define their key business outcomes, and we look at "Who are your competitors?"  They don't say other banks. their competitors are Google, Apple, Alibaba.  These are not even secondary competitors, these are their primary fear-based "we are terrified of these companies." Software is eating the world, and every company is becoming a digital company.  There are banks out there saying we want to be a digital bank, or an agile bank.  I've worked with companies, financial institutions, where the traditional functional structure of IT and Business has gone.  They have gotten rid of the IT team- because all of the developers now sit in the business.  So, I own a credit card function, the credit card product, and have 20 developers and BAs and testers working in my team, because technology is now the business.  There's still an IT thin slice around the infrastructure, because that does tend to be common, but everything else, pass that into the business and own that in.  Even if you don't fully restructure towards fully agile outcome teams, this reducing the amount of handoff, this idea of i'm a business function I shall write my requirements and pass it off to you, dear IT please build this for me, those days are gone.  It is now this continuous change of value and value creation.  The closer you can make those lines of communication, and it doesn't get much closer than the same team, the better.   LitheSpeed is a corporate member of the Business Agility Institute.  Explore the Business Agility Institute to get involved with the global community and visit lithespeed.com for Agile training & coaching.

I spoke with Business Agility Conference organizer Evan Leybourn on some of the inner workings and the future of the conference.    The people are the best part of the conference. 40% of attendees were from over seas and 95% of all attendees flew in just for this event - which is incredible! Truly a global audience.  We really approached our topics differently this year. It was designed specifically to have "ah-ha!" moments constantly where everyone tells us a story. We weren't looking for theory, we wanted them to tell us their "why," - to leave us inspired.  In the coming years, we really don't want to grow too big - 350-400 might be the max. Primarily because the intimacy of the conversations is important, but we want to go broader. We want small, focused events all of the world to give people opportunities and the chance to join the conversation.  4 Pillars in the Business Agility Institute: Community Outreach Guidance Leadership And LitheSpeed, as one of our first Institute Partners, has been doing and will continue to live out and uphold these pillars.  This is my "try to take over the world" moment. What we're doing will influence and touch every business in the world in the coming years.  The next conferences will take place in Fall 2018 in Australia. Learn more at businessagilityconf.com   Need help implementing these tips into your own organizations? Give us a shout at lithespeed.com or reach out at info@lithespeed.com

The Software Process and Measurement Cast 478 features our interview with Evan Leybourn.  Evan is back to discuss his new venture, The Business Agility Institute. Agile is not just for software anymore! Bio Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champions and supports the next generation of organizations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic - perfectly designed to thrive in today’s unpredictable markets. We connect leaders across industries and regions to share their experiences and insights with each other. Our flagship event, the Business Agility Conference will run in New York from March 14th. Evan is also the author of Directing the Agile Organisation and will soon be publishing his next book on #noprojects. Business Agility Institute: http://businessagility.institute/ Business Agility Conference: http://businessagilityconference.com/ Directing the Agile Organisation: http://amzn.to/2D7SStK   Re-Read Saturday News This week we tackled Chapter 11 of Actionable Agile Metrics for Predictability: An Introduction by Daniel S. Vacanti. Chapter 11 is titled Interpreting Cycle Time Scatterplots. Visualization and patterns are a powerful way of visualizing data. Remember to buy your copy today and read along, and we will be back next week! Previous Installments Introduction and Game Plan Week 2: Flow, Flow Metrics, and Predictability Week 3: The Basics of Flow Metrics Week 4: An Introduction to Little’s Law Week 5: Introduction to CFDs Week 6: Workflow Metrics and CFDs Week 7: Flow Metrics and CFSs Week 8: Conservation of Flow, Part I Week 9: Conservation of Flow, Part II Week 10: Flow Debt Week 11: Introduction to Cycle Time Scatterplots Week 12: Cycle Time Histograms Week 13: Interpreting Cycle Time Scatterplots   Dead Tree Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/098643633X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=098643633X&linkCode=as2&tag=softprocandme-20&linkId=3488b22252fbe0c99b33ea226f9dcdf5   Kindle https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013ZQ5TUQ/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B013ZQ5TUQ&linkCode=as2&tag=softprocandme-20&linkId=f5bdfb462b1cb570344bba7dff6e3c37 Get your copy and begin reading (or re-reading)! Advertisement The SPaMCAST 478 is sponsored by Tom Cagley & Associates.   I have some very exciting news. As you know, I have spent the last ten years as part of Premios (formerly known as David Consulting Group and DCG Software Value). It is time for a change.   As of January 16th, Tom Cagley & Associates begins business. Our goal is to work with organizations and teams to unlock their inherent greatness. As experienced thought leaders, we have studied a wide range of organizations to uncover what makes them the best at what they do. By delivering training, guidance, and coaching we can help make the transformation of your organization and team a success - and prove it.   Lets talk! Email: tcagley@tomcagley.com Phone: 01 (440) 668-5717 Upcoming Webinars January 25, 2018 11 AM EST - 12:30 EST Agile: Leadership Required ITMPI In this webinar, you will learn about the four leadership concepts that can double the chances that your agile transformation will be effective. February 2nd, 2018 - 11:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. (CST) Agile Leadership for Agile Transformation or Fail! The International Institute for Software Testing Organizational change will be difficult at best without proper leadership. There are four leadership concepts that can double the chances that your agile transformation will be effective and stay that way! Register February 6, 2018 6:30 PM - 8:30 PM CST AGILE best practices for STARTUPS San Antonio Software Startup Meetup Codeup 600 Navarro St, 3rd Floor · San Antonio, TX If you are in the San Antonio area, please RSVP guys and this will help the organizers plan.  I will have opening remarks on business agility and then will focus on the questions and comments from the assembly! Next SPaMCAST SPaMCAST 478 will feature our essay, “You Know it is Virtual Agile When …”  Just because someone says they are agile or are doing stand-ups doesn’t mean they really have embraced agile.   We will also have columns from Steve Tendon who brings his Tame The Flow: Hyper-Productive Knowledge-Work Performance, The TameFlow Approach and Its Application to Scrum and Kanban  (buy a copy here) to the cast.  Also, Jon M Quigley will return with his column, Alpha and Omega of Product Development.    

The Software Process and Measurement Cast 477 features our essay on silence.  Silence is a powerful tool to guide conversations and mine information from the stream of consciousness that flows around us. If silence was just a tool to improve our connections with people and to improve listening, it would be worth practicing. But, silence is also a tool to peer deeper into our minds. Silence improves relaxation and helps individuals to focus.  Trust me the podcast is not 30 minutes of silence! We will also have a column from Kim Pries, the Software Sensi.  Kim brings us part one of his essay, Muddling Through.  The essay is based on the article, “The Science of "Muddling Through" by Charles E. Lindblom.  The article was originally published in 1959 but has an important message that resonates now. Gene Hughson of Form Follows Function anchors the cast.  He discusses his great article, “What Makes a Monolith Monolithic?” Gene suggests that the problem with the term “monolith” is that, while it’s a powerfully evocative term, it isn’t a simple one to define.   Re-Read Saturday News This week we tackled Chapter 10a of Actionable Agile Metrics for Predictability: An Introduction by Daniel S. Vacanti. Histograms are another powerful way of visualizing data Remember to buy your copy today and read along, and we will be back next week!  The link: Week 12: Cycle Time Histograms Previous Installments Introduction and Game Plan Week 2: Flow, Flow Metrics, and Predictability Week 3: The Basics of Flow Metrics Week 4: An Introduction to Little’s Law Week 5: Introduction to CFDs Week 6: Workflow Metrics and CFDs Week 7: Flow Metrics and CFSs Week 8: Conservation of Flow, Part I Week 9: Conservation of Flow, Part II Week 10: Flow Debt Week 11: Introduction to Cycle Time Scatterplots Week 12: Cycle Time Histograms   Dead Tree Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/098643633X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=098643633X&linkCode=as2&tag=softprocandme-20&linkId=3488b22252fbe0c99b33ea226f9dcdf5 Kindle https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013ZQ5TUQ/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B013ZQ5TUQ&linkCode=as2&tag=softprocandme-20&linkId=f5bdfb462b1cb570344bba7dff6e3c37 Get your copy and begin reading (or re-reading)!   Upcoming Webinars January 25, 2018 11 AM EST - 12:30 EST Agile: Leadership Required ITMPI In this webinar, you will learn about the four leadership concepts that can double the chances that your agile transformation will be effective. February 2nd, 2018 - 11:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. (CST) Agile Leadership for Agile Transformation or Fail! The International Institute for Software Testing Organizational change will be difficult at best without proper leadership. There are four leadership concepts that can double the chances that your agile transformation will be effective and stay that way! Register February 6, 2018 6:30 PM - 8:30 PM CST AGILE best practices for STARTUPS San Antonio Software Startup Meetup Codeup 600 Navarro St, 3rd Floor · San Antonio, TX If you are in the San Antonio area, please RSVP guys and this will help the organizers plan.  I will have opening remarks on business agility and then will focus on the questions and comments from the assembly! More next week!   Next SPaMCAST SPaMCAST 478 will feature our interview with Evan Leybourn.  Evan is back to discuss his new venture, The Business Agility Institute. Agile is not just for software anymore!

Let’s get the community together and come up with a definition of Business Agility. But, according to business transformation leader and author Evan Leybourn, "having a nebulous set of common ideals, principles that form Business Agility gives us a common banner to work [under]... If we try to narrow it to something, we actually lose the power of this movement, the power of changing how organizations work" and inadvertently exclude something of value. Leybourn reminds us that delivery used to be the constraint to agility. Today, that constraint has moved to the business side: the PMO, Finance, HR, and in the structure of the organization. Business Agility applies the Agile mindset to the entire organization, enabling the enterprise to be competitive in the market. Leybourn also shares his three domains of agility, which are interlinked and do not form a hierarchy:1. Technical agility: Agile in software - e.g., paired programming, DevOps2. Process agility: Scrum, Kanban3. Business Agility: Leadership, organization structure and processes SolutionsIQ Chief Technical Officer Evan Campbell hosts. About Agile AmpedThe Agile Amped podcast series brings Agile news and events to life. Fueled by inspiring conversations, innovative ideas, and in-depth analysis of enterprise agility, Agile Amped provides on-the-go learning – anytime, anywhere. To receive real-time updates, subscribe!Subscribe: http://bit.ly/SIQYouTube, http://bit.ly/SIQiTunes, http://www2.solutionsiq.com/subscribe-to-agile-amped-youtubeFollow: http://bit.ly/SIQTwitter Like: http://bit.ly/SIQFacebook

Evan Leybourn (@eleybourn) joins us to discuss #NoProjects and Business Agility Additional resources: - Directing The Agile Organization: https://www.amazon.com/Directing-Agile-Organization-Approach-Management/dp/1849284911/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 - Business Agility Conference: www.businessagility2017.com Agile India 2017 Conf is Asia's Largest and Premier Conference on Agile, Lean, Scrum, eXtreme Programming, Lean-Startup, Kanban, Continuous Delivery, Lean UX, Product Discovery, DevOps, Enterprise Agile, Patterns and more... This time we are hosting a mega six-day conference, starting on March 6th (Monday), where experts and practitioners from around the world will share their experience. For more information go to http://2017.agileindia.org/ This podcast was produced by Chris & Sean Agile (@ChrisSeanAgile). www.chrisandseanagile.com

We begin year 10 of the Software Process and Measurement Cast with our Interview with Evan Leybourn. Evan returns to the Software Process and Measurement Cast to discuss the "end to IT projects." We discussed the idea of #NoProject and continuous delivery, and whether this is just an “IT” thing or something that can encompass the entire business.  Evan’s views are informative and bit provocative.  I have not stopped thinking about the concepts we discussed since originally taping the interview. Evan last appeared on SPaMCAST 284 – Evan Leybourn, Directing The Agile Organization to discuss his book Directing the Agile Organization. Evan’s BioEvan pioneered the field of Agile Business Management; applying the successful concepts and practices from the Lean and Agile movements to corporate management. He keeps busy as a business leader, consultant, non-executive director, conference speaker, internationally published author and father. Evan has a passion for building effective and productive organizations, filled with actively engaged and committed people. Only through this, can organizations flourish. His experience while holding senior leadership and board positions in both private industry and the government has driven his work in business agility and he regularly speaks on these topics at local and international industry conferences. As well as writing "Directing the Agile Organization.", Evan currently works for IBM in Singapore to help them become a leading agile organization. As always, all thoughts, ideas, and comments are his own and do not represent his clients or employer. All of Evan’s contact information and blog can be accessed on his website. Remember to help grow the podcast by reviewing the SPaMCAST on iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcatcher/player and then share the review! Help your friends find the Software Process and Measurement Cast. After all, friends help friends find great podcasts! Re-Read Saturday News We continue the re-read of How to Measure Anything, Finding the Value of “Intangibles in Business” Third Edition by Douglas W. Hubbard on the Software Process and Measurement Blog. In Chapter Six, we discussed using risk in quantitative analysis and the Monte Carlo analysis.   Upcoming Events I am facilitating the CMMI Capability Challenge. This new competition showcases thought leaders who are building organizational capability and improving performance. Listeners will be asked to vote on the winning idea which will be presented at the CMMI Institute’s Capability Counts 2016 conference.  The next CMMI Capability Challenge session will be held on February 17 at 11 AM EST. http://cmmiinstitute.com/conferences#thecapabilitychallenge   Next SPaMCAST The next Software Process and Measurement Cast will feature our essay on the relationship between done and value. The essay is in response to a question from Anteneh Berhane.  Anteneh called me to ask one of the hardest questions I had ever been asked: why doesn’t the definition of done include value? We will also have columns from Jeremy Berriault’s QA Corner and Steve Tendon discussing the next chapter in the book  Tame The Flow: Hyper-Productive Knowledge-Work Performance, The TameFlow Approach and Its Application to Scrum and Kanban. Shameless Ad for my book! Mastering Software Project Management: Best Practices, Tools and Techniques co-authored by Murali Chematuri and myself and published by J. Ross Publishing. We have received unsolicited reviews like the following: “This book will prove that software projects should not be a tedious process, for you or your team.” Support SPaMCAST by buying the book here. Available in English and Chinese.

In this week’s Software Process and Measurement Cast will feature three columns.  our essay on empathy. Coaching is a key tool to help individuals and teams reach peak performance. One of the key attributes of a good coach is empathy. Critical to the understanding the role that empathy plays in coaching is understanding the definition of empathy. As a coach, if you can’t connect with those you are coaching you will not succeed. Let’s learn how to become more empathic.  Our second column features the return of the Software Sensei, Kim Pries.  Kim looks at how we might apply David Allen’s concepts for Getting Things Done (after the book of the same name). Please note the comments reflect the Software Sensei’s interpretation of how Allen’s work might be applied to software development. Anchoring the cast this week is Gene Hughson bringing an entry from the Form Follows Function Blog.  Today Gene discussed his essay, Changing Organizations Without Changing People.  Gene proclaims, “Changing culture is impossible if you claim to value one thing but your actions demonstrate that you really don’t.” Remember to help grow the podcast by reviewing the SPaMCAST on iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcatcher/player and then share the review! Help your friends find the Software Process and Measurement Cast. After all, friends help friends find great podcasts! Re-Read Saturday News We continue the re-read of How to Measure Anything, Finding the Value of “Intangibles in Business” Third Edition by Douglas W. Hubbard on the Software Process and Measurement Blog. In Chapter five, we discussed estimation, calibration and what we know now! Upcoming Events I am facilitating the CMMI Capability Challenge.  This new competition showcases thought leaders who are building organizational capability and improving performance. Listeners will be asked to vote on the winning idea which will be presented at the CMMI Institute’s Capability Counts 2016 conference.  The next CMMI Capability Challenge session will be held on February 17 at 11 AM EST.  http://cmmiinstitute.com/conferences#thecapabilitychallenge In other events, I will give a webinar, titled: Discover The Quality of Your Testing Process on January 19, 2016, at  11:00 am ESTOrganizations that seek to understand and improve their current testing capabilities can use the Test Maturity Model integration (TMMi) as a guide for best practices. The TMMi is the industry standard model of testing capabilities. Comparing your testing organization's performance to the model provides a gap analysis and outlines a path towards greater capabilities and efficiency. This webinar will walk attendees through a testing assessment that delivers a baseline of performance and a set of prioritized process improvements. Next SPaMCAST The next Software Process and Measurement Cast will feature our Interview with Evan Leybourn. Evan returns to the Software Process and Measurement Cast to discuss the "end to IT projects." We discussed the idea of #NoProject and continuous delivery and whether this is just an “IT” thing or something that can encompass the entire business.   Shameless Ad for my book! Mastering Software Project Management: Best Practices, Tools and Techniques co-authored by Murali Chematuri and myself and published by J. Ross Publishing. We have received unsolicited reviews like the following: “This book will prove that software projects should not be a tedious process, for you or your team.” Support SPaMCAST by buying the book here. Available in English and Chinese.

Listen to the Software Process and Measurement Cast 284. SPaMCAST 284 features our interview with Evan Leybourn, author of Directing the Agile Organization. We had a wide-ranging discussion on Agile business management. Agile is not just for IT anymore! Evan’s Bio Evan is an experienced leader, coach and published author in the developing field of Agile Business Management; applying the successful concepts and practices from the Lean and Agile movements to corporate management. Evan has a passion for building effective and productive organizations, filled with actively engaged and committed staff while ensuring high-levels of customer satisfaction. Evan's experiences when holding executive and board positions in both private industry and government has driven his passion for lean business management. His background in Agile Project Management and Business Intelligence informed his understanding of the need for evidence-based decision making and quantitative analysis, to measure corporate success. As well as writing "Directing the Agile Organization", Evan currently consults to organizations around Australia and SE Asia on Agile management and governance. All of Evan’s contact information and blog can be accessed on his website Buy the book Paper Kindle Get in touch with us anytime or leave a comment here on the blog. Help support the SPaMCAST by reviewing and rating it on iTunes. It helps people find the cast. Like us on Facebook while you’re at it. Next week the essay will be a collection of questions you have asked on the blog, on the phone or in person. They are great questions when we discussed them one on one, it is time to share the answers with a broader audience. Upcoming Events QAIQuest 2014 I will be facilitating a ½ Day tutorial titled Make Integration and Acceptance Testing Truly Agile. The tutorial will wrestle with the flow of testing in Agile projects and will include lots of practical advice and exercises. Remember that Agile testing is not waterfall done quickly. I will also be around for the conference and look forward to meeting and talking with SPaMCAST readers and listeners.  More confernce information   ALSO I HAVE A DISCOUNT CODE…. Email me at spamcastinfo@gmail.com or call 440.668.5717 for the code. StarEast I will be speaking at the StarEast Conference May 4th – 9th in Orlando, Florida.  I will be presenting a talk titled, The Impact of Cognitive Biases on Test and Project Teams. Follow the link for more information on StarEast. ALSO I HAVE A DISCOUNT CODE…. Email me at spamcastinfo@gmail.com or call 440.668.5717 for the code. I look forward to seeing all SPaMCAST readers and listeners at all of these great events! The Software Process and Measurement Cast has a sponsor. As many you know I do at least one webinar for the IT Metrics and Productivity Institute (ITMPI) every year. The ITMPI provides a great service to the IT profession. ITMPI's mission is to pull together the expertise and educational efforts of the world's leading IT thought leaders and to create a single online destination where IT practitioners and executives can meet all of their educational and professional development needs. The ITMPI offers a premium membership that gives members unlimited free access to 400 PDU accredited webinar recordings, and waives the PDU processing fees on all live and recorded webinars. The Software Process and Measurement Cast some support if you sign up here. All the revenue our sponsorship generates goes for bandwidth, hosting and new cool equipment to create more and better content for you. Support the SPaMCAST and learn from the ITMPI. Shameless Ad for my book! Mastering Software Project Management: Best Practices, Tools and Techniques co-authored by Murali Chematuri and myself and published by J. Ross Publishing. We have received unsolicited reviews like the following: "This book will prove that software projects should not be a tedious process, neither for you or your team." Support SPaMCAST by buying the book here. Available in English and Chinese.    

Listen to the Software Process and Measurement Cast 283. The SPaMCAST 283 features our essay on user stories.  A user story is a brief, simple requirement statement from the user perspective. User stories are narratives describing who is interacting with the application; how they are interacting with the application and the benefit they derive from that interaction. If you would like to read the original blog entries that formed the basis of this essay they can be found at: User StoriesCardsEpics, Themes and IssuesProblemsSame as Use Cases and Traditional Requirements? Get in touch with us anytime or leave a comment here on the blog. Help support the SPaMCAST by reviewing and rating it on iTunes. It helps people find the cast. Like us on Facebook while you’re at it. Next week we will feature our interview with Evan Leybourn author of Directing the Agile Organization. We discussed agile business management. Agile is not just for IT anymore! Upcoming Events QAIQuest 2014 I will be facilitating a ½ Day tutorial titled Make Integration and Acceptance Testing Truly Agile. The tutorial will wrestle with the flow of testing in Agile projects and will include lots of practical advice and exercises. Remember that Agile testing is not waterfall done quickly. I will also be around for the conference and look forward to meeting and talking with SPaMCAST readers and listeners.  More confernce information   ALSO I HAVE A DISCOUNT CODE…. Email me at spamcastinfo@gmail.com or call 440.668.5717 for the code. StarEast I will be speaking at the StarEast Conference May 4th – 9th in Orlando, Florida.  I will be presenting a talk titled, The Impact of Cognitive Biases on Test and Project Teams. Follow the link for more information on StarEast. ALSO I HAVE A DISCOUNT CODE…. Email me at spamcastinfo@gmail.com or call 440.668.5717 for the code. I look forward to seeing all SPaMCAST readers and listeners at all of these great events! The Software Process and Measurement Cast has a sponsor. As many you know I do at least one webinar for the IT Metrics and Productivity Institute (ITMPI) every year. The ITMPI provides a great service to the IT profession. ITMPI's mission is to pull together the expertise and educational efforts of the world's leading IT thought leaders and to create a single online destination where IT practitioners and executives can meet all of their educational and professional development needs. The ITMPI offers a premium membership that gives members unlimited free access to 400 PDU accredited webinar recordings, and waives the PDU processing fees on all live and recorded webinars. The Software Process and Measurement Cast some support if you sign up here. All the revenue our sponsorship generates goes for bandwidth, hosting and new cool equipment to create more and better content for you. Support the SPaMCAST and learn from the ITMPI. Shameless Ad for my book! Mastering Software Project Management: Best Practices, Tools and Techniques co-authored by Murali Chematuri and myself and published by J. Ross Publishing. We have received unsolicited reviews like the following: "This book will prove that software projects should not be a tedious process, neither for you or your team." Support SPaMCAST by buying the book here. Available in English and Chinese.