Podcasts about cspo

Neste episódio do Product Guru's, Paulo Chiodi recebe Joaquim Torres, o Joca, para discutir uma das dúvidas mais persistentes do universo de produtos: afinal, qual é a real diferença entre Product Owner (PO) e Product Manager (PM)? Com base em experiências práticas, postagens virais no LinkedIn e séries de artigos, Joka desmistifica a origem de ambos os papéis, contextualiza a confusão gerada por metodologias ágeis como o Scrum, e revela como nomenclaturas erradas podem impactar até salários e estrutura organizacional.Além disso, a conversa avança para a estrutura de carreira em produtos, falando sobre APM, GPM e o papel estratégico do PM. Joca também comenta sobre a importância de ter clareza nos papéis e responsabilidades, como isso afeta empresas grandes e a transição de profissionais de outras áreas para produto.O episódio fecha com dicas valiosas para quem está entrando na área ou quer ajudar seu RH a entender melhor a diferença entre cargo e disciplina na gestão de produtos./// Conteúdos completares:Vídeo POvsPM: 3 perspectivas: https://youtu.be/EfcmyA-c3s8?si=VBhxsQ4TVleuO8O7Post do Joca que viralizou: http://bit.ly/3ETH17QLivro do Joca: https://amzn.to/4m1NRJ8/// Viva a nova era de produtos digitais com a PM3. PM, chegou a hora de criar e delegar com mais inteligência! A PM3 vai realizar uma Masterclass exclusiva: ‘'O Roadmap da NOVA ERA de Produtos'' Lá, eles vão falar sobre o que PMs podem delegar com IA, quais ferramentas já estão moldando o mercado, e por que dominar essa habilidade é essencial para quem quer crescer na carreira. O evento é online, gratuito e acontece no dia 13/05.Acesse o link e faça a sua inscrição: https://go.pm3.com.br/Podcast-PG-NovaEra/// Onde encontrar os convidados:Joca Torres | Founder & Principal Consultant @ Gyaco:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocatorres/// Nesse episódio abordamos:• PO é um papel do Scrum; PM é uma função de carreira.• Usar PO e PM como sinônimos pode achatar salários e gerar confusão organizacional.• GPM é o primeiro passo da liderança em produto em empresas maduras.• APM deve ter escopo pequeno, mas responsabilidade real e não ser "assistente de PM".• Cargos precisam de clareza de papéis e responsabilidades, isso evita disfunções.• RH muitas vezes força nomenclaturas incorretas por limitações em seus sistemas.• PM é responsável por entregar valor tanto para o cliente quanto para o negócio.• Certificações como CSPO não garantem experiência prática nem conhecimento profundo.• Produto é disciplina, não apenas um cargo; qualquer área pode praticar.• Muitas pessoas já praticam gestão de produto sem saber, é preciso traduzir experiências anteriores./// Capítulos00:00 Abertura02:14 Por que ainda falamos sobre PO vs PM03:00 A confusão entre os papéis e a viralização no LinkedIn06:30 A visão de PO e PM em startups vs empresas grandes07:05 A origem dos papéis e a evolução histórica11:03 Construindo a carreira: de BA a PM13:00 APM, PM e a estrutura ideal de crescimento16:40 Nomenclatura e impacto no RH21:37 O debate vai migrar para cargos de liderança?26:00 O papel real de um GPM29:42 Estrutura de produtos ideal: APMs, PMs e GPMs32:57 APM deve ter squad própria?35:53 A importância da clareza de papéis nas empresas39:50 Separação entre produto de negócio e produto digital44:51 Qual o papel real de um PM?48:37 Migração de outras áreas para produto50:45 Gestão de produto como disciplina, não só cargo53:09 Encerramento/// Onde encontrar a Product Guru's:WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029Va7uwHS5fM5U0LIatu3XX (antigo Twitter): ⁠https://twitter.com/product_gurus⁠LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/product-guru-s/⁠Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/product.gurus/⁠

Eine Zertifizierung ist für viele Product Owner ein Thema, das immer wieder aufkommt – oft dann, wenn sie neu in der Rolle sind oder sich weiterentwickeln wollen. Doch was bringt eine Zertifizierung wirklich? Ist sie nur ein Türöffner für den ersten Job oder hilft sie tatsächlich dabei, ein besserer Product Owner zu werden? Gleichzeitig gibt es eine Vielzahl an Anbietern für solche Zertifizierungen – von etablierten Organisationen wie der Scrum Alliance oder scrum.org bis hin zu eher unbekannten Anbietern. Jede Organisation verspricht einen eigenen Mehrwert. Manche Zertifikate lassen sich durch das Bestehen eines Online-Tests erwerben, andere setzen auf Trainings mit erfahrenen Coaches. Doch nicht jede Zertifizierung passt zu jedem Kontext oder Lerntyp. Eine Zertifizierung kann ein guter Einstieg sein, um sich strukturiert mit den Grundlagen des Product Ownership auseinanderzusetzen. Sie gibt Orientierung und zeigt, welche Themen zur Rolle gehören. Aber sie ersetzt nicht die tägliche Praxis, nicht den Austausch im Team, nicht die Auseinandersetzung mit Stakeholdern oder Nutzerbedürfnissen. Wer Product Owner ist, lernt ständig dazu – unabhängig vom Zertifikat auf dem Papier. Besonders spannend wird es, wenn wir uns die Motivation anschauen, warum Menschen überhaupt eine Zertifizierung machen wollen. Geht es um ein besseres Gehalt? Um Sichtbarkeit im Unternehmen? Oder darum, sich selbst sicherer in der Rolle zu fühlen? Je nach Zielsetzung können ganz unterschiedliche Formate sinnvoll sein. Für manche ist zum Beispiel ein Einstiegskurs wie der „Professional Scrum Product Owner“ (PSPO I) ideal, andere profitieren mehr von Advanced-Kursen mit Fokus auf Stakeholder-Management, strategischer Produktentwicklung oder Leadership. Zertifizierungen sind also weder gut noch schlecht – sie sind Werkzeuge. Und wie bei allen Werkzeugen kommt es darauf an, wie man sie einsetzt. Ein Product Owner, der gelernt hat, wie wichtig kontinuierliche Validierung von Hypothesen ist, wird sich nicht auf ein Zertifikat verlassen, sondern im Alltag ausprobieren, verwerfen, neu denken. Genau das macht die Rolle so anspruchsvoll – und so spannend. Am Ende zählt weniger, welches Logo auf dem Zertifikat steht, sondern was die Person daraus macht. Wer bereit ist, kontinuierlich zu lernen, Feedback anzunehmen und sich mit anderen POs zu vernetzen, braucht nicht unbedingt eine Zertifizierung, um gute Arbeit zu leisten. Aber sie kann ein sinnvoller Baustein sein – vor allem dann, wenn sie nicht als Endpunkt, sondern als Anfang verstanden wird.

Join Brian and Bernie Maloney as they explore the transformative power of mental models, emphasizing the shift from a mechanistic to an organic mindset in Agile organizations. Overview In this episode, Brian and Bernie Maloney discuss the profound impact of mental models on organizational culture. Bernie delves into how our beliefs and assumptions shape our thinking and behavior, particularly within Agile environments. He discusses the importance of transitioning from a mechanistic to an organic mindset, focusing on problem-solving rather than merely delivering solutions. The conversation also highlights the role of psychological safety in fostering a culture of experimentation and learning. Bernie shares valuable resources, including Amy Edmondson's 'The Right Kind of Wrong,' to further explore these concepts. Tune in for insightful strategies for enhancing your organization's agility and effectiveness. Listen Now to Discover: [1:03] - Brian welcomes Certified Scrum Trainer® and Principal at Power By Teams, Bernie Maloney, to the show. [2:15] - Bernie delves into the concept of mental models, sharing the origins of his philosophy of "making new mistakes" developed during his time at Hewlett Packard. [5:55] - Bernie illustrates the power of mental models and belief by sharing a compelling example that brings these concepts to life. [13:46] - Join us for a Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training, where a year of coaching and development with Mike Cohn, Brian, and the Agile Mentors Community of Agile leaders is included with your training. [14:39] - Bernie discusses how applying mental models can enhance the effectiveness of Agile transformations, creating a naturally adaptive and innovative climate. [18:12] - Bernie offers language as a powerful tool to support the shift to a new Mental Model. [23:30] - Bernie demonstrates the use of mental models for product owners through the Mobius Loop, providing actionable guidance and examples [26:27] - Brian shares a big thank you to Bernie for joining him on the show. [26:59] - If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, and like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast so you never miss a new episode. [27:27] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership to that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, CSPO, or Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Bernie Maloney Power By Teams Mobius Loop The Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well by Amy Edmondson Agile Teams Learn From Spikes: Time Boxed Research Activities by Mike Cohn Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bernie Maloney is an Agile leadership coach and international speaker, leverages his 25 years of engineering and leadership experience to help teams and organizations unlock their full potential. Known for his engaging workshops and impactful coaching, Bernie believes in making performance breakthroughs both achievable and enjoyable. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest with me. I have Mr. Bernie Maloney with me. Welcome in, Bernie. I am. Bernie Maloney (00:14) Thanks, Brian. Happy to be here. Brian (00:16) Great. I'm so excited to have Bernie here. Bernie and I have touched base for years over conferences. We've run into each other and had chats and shared our shared passion for Hawaii and other things. But Bernie was speaking at the recent conference and we've gotten into some conversations. I wanted him to come on because I wanted him to, first of all, if you're not familiar with Bernie, sorry, I see, I just want to jump right into it. If you're not familiar with Bernie, Bernie is a CST. He works at a company called Powered by Teams. He teaches classes, Scrum Master product owner classes and leadership classes and other things as well. But he is a principal at Powered by Teams. So just wanted to give you the basics there before we dive into anything. But the topic that we started to talk about that just as a jumping off place for us is a topic. the topic of mental models. So Bernie, why don't you explain to everyone how you define that, mental models. Bernie Maloney (01:23) So, Brian, this is a great topic. I find myself talking about it all the time. And y 'all, I warned Brian, like, he can press play on this, and it might be 15 minutes before he gets a word in edgewise here. It touches on mindset. It touches on a lot of topics. My talk that Brian was referencing at the recent Scrum gathering in New Orleans was make new mistakes, leadership lessons from an Agile success. which goes back to where I really kind of cut my teeth in Agile at Hewlett Packard. See, I'm a mechanical engineer by training. And I cut my teeth in Agile in the consumer PC division at HP about, this is scary to say y 'all, okay, about 27 years ago starting at this point. And some of the fun stuff, it was a bang up enterprise. It was the fastest business in HP's history to hit a billion dollars. And it was just... Brian (02:05) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (02:18) a great proving ground. We had hardware, we had software, we had distributed teams where volume manufacturing was in Asia, engineering was here where I am in Silicon Valley. Go -to -market for Europe was in Grenoble, France. We had high volume. Some of our products had 100 ,000 units in a single model run, with like 200 models in Europe on a quarterly basis at times. So high volume, high mix, tight margins from a business perspective. A lot of technology products want to have 20 % to 30 % gross margins. That's before you start taking off deductions like expenses and salaries and things like that. On a good day, we had 8 % gross margins for Christmas products, maybe 2 % gross margins. We used to refer to it as we were shipping rotting bananas. And like I said, I was there. When I started, we were shipping six products a quarter. We grew to 20. By the time I left after eight years, we were doing 200 products a quarter in Europe alone. Brian (03:04) Ha ha. Bernie Maloney (03:16) hardware, software, distributed teams, high volume, high mix. And we did all that with weekly iterations of a plan. At one point in my career, I was tactically responsible for the delivery of 2 % of HP's top line revenue with zero direct reports. And part of the secret sauce of success in that organization was really that mental model of make new mistakes. So that's where the talk title comes from. And in fact, makenewmistakes .com will point to poweredbyteams .com because I own that domain too. But that mental model really helped the organization thrive and not just survive. We went from like a number one to a number five share. Sorry, from a number five to a number one the other way around. Because the founding executives recognized that in that tide of a market, mistakes were probably going to happen. And so what they did is they established the psychological safety. Wow, look, there's another great topic. Make new mistakes. You knew that if it was an honest mistake, it would be forgiven. Just don't make it again. Get the lesson is one of the things that they said. I can even tell you the story about the weekend I blew a million dollars of HP's money and I was forgiven, but you'll have to come to a conference talk for that. So that was just like a great experience. And... Brian (04:32) Wow. Bernie Maloney (04:39) After that experience, I went on to TVs. Another part of my background is I shipped the very first internet connected TVs. Look it up, the Media Smart 3760 from HP. It shipped even before Apple TV. It bombed. Okay, it was way ahead of its time. But I recognized that that had been such a joyride. And then I recognized some other stuff that really gets into the psychological, the mental aspects of leadership, high performing teams. And I could, Brian, I could talk about that too, but okay. But that kind of got me to recognize that with those skills, the success that I had experienced at HP could probably be replicated. That's kind of been the path that I've been on for the past 15 years is really helping organizations go along that path. So mental models can be really big. Let me give everybody here an example. And so Brian, I'm going to speak to you as a way of illustrating mental models. So imagine you are physically where you are right now. Brian (05:24) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (05:37) but it is 150 years ago, okay? Imagine you're physically where you are right now, but it's 150 years ago. Now, Brian, let me ask you, can man fly? Brian (05:47) boy, you're testing my history knowledge. Bernie Maloney (05:52) Okay, make it 200 years ago, okay? That makes it easier. Okay, cool. Great, now fast forward to the present. Brian, let me ask you, can man fly? Brian (05:54) No, yeah, no. Yes. Bernie Maloney (06:02) What changed? Nothing about the laws of physical reality. It was just your mental model of what for man to fly means. That's the power of belief, okay? And belief limits a whole bunch of stuff in the way that people behave. So you'll hear Agilent talk all the time about, this is all about changing mindset. I'm probably, Brian, gonna give your listeners some ways of. Brian (06:06) invention. Bernie Maloney (06:30) changing mindset as we go through this, but that's going to illustrate the power of mental models. Now, a big one that I like to use that's specific to Agile comes from Gabby Benefield. She's an Agilist out of the UK, and it's called the Mobius Loop. And I think she's got the domain mobiusloop .com. So everybody can imagine a Mobius Loop. Okay. And what I really like about this model for her... Brian (06:32) Sure, yeah, please. Yeah. Bernie Maloney (06:56) i s the right -hand half is what a lot of organizations think Agile is. Build, measure, learn, build, measure, learn. The whole idea of the build trap that we talk about in Agile. It's all about the delivery of a solution. Okay? But the left -hand half is all about the discovery of the problem. Okay? And the discovery of the customer. And that's a part of Agile too that most organizations overlook. So you got to ask why. And it comes down to kind of mental models. So when I was at Persistent, if you go look me up on LinkedIn, you'll find some of my employment history. I was at Persistent for a while. They had a really good mental model. And it's something I still use when I go into a client. And they would talk about there's kind of three eras of a company culture. And so culture is really the environment that an organization lives within. And there's an era. where cultures were formed before the internet. So things like finance and government and mining and manufacturing and oil and gas field developed. I mean, I've had clients in all of these areas. And in that sort of an environment, okay, it was, well, an era. One of the things I'll ask, and Brian, I'll kind of like let you represent the audience. Would you say in general, the people that you work with, the markets that they serve, Are they moving faster and all up into a thumbs up, slower, thumbs down, or about the same, thumbs sideways? Are the markets moving faster, slower, or about the same as they were, say, five or 10 years ago? Brian (08:32) I think everything's moving faster, yeah. Bernie Maloney (08:34) Cool. Okay. Now, how about the technology that your clients use to solve problems for that market? You know, moving faster, thumbs up, slower, thumbs down, or about the same as it was, say, five or 10 years ago. Faster. Yeah, cool. Okay. Now, when things are moving faster, thumbs up for yes, thumbs down for no. Do they always move in a straight line? Brian (08:46) No, faster. No, not always. Bernie Maloney (08:56) Okay, cool. So now things are moving faster, but they're not moving in a straight line. So let me ask you, do most organizations try and plan and predict? Is it possible for you to plan and predict when things are moving faster and they're not moving in a straight line? Is it easier or harder to plan and predict? Brian (09:19) I think it's definitely harder. Bernie Maloney (09:21) Yeah, but organizations are trying to do that, aren't they? And it's because their mental model is as a machine. So organizations born before the internet have a mental model of the entire organizational system being a machine, the industrial age, which you can plan and predict. They treat people like cogs in a machine. In fact, the thing that us Agilists will say is, when you say resources, did you mean people? See, that's... Brian (09:35) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (09:50) That's kind of now we're starting to get into some of the culture aspects of this because language actually forms culture. And so you'll hear Angela say, did you mean people? Like when that whole word of resources comes up. But organizations born before the internet, they've got one culture. Okay, they were born in an era of plan and predict. They've got a mental model of the system being a machine. And your listeners would probably agree most of them struggle with Agile. Okay, now there's another era born in the internet but not the cloud. So some examples like here in Silicon Valley, Cisco, PayPal, okay, lots of us have had exposure to them and lots of us recognize they still struggle with agile because agile wasn't really fully formed and articulated. Then there are organizations that were born in the cloud and so places like Striper Square and I use payments because I've had... clients in finance across all three of these eras. So Stripe or Square, they were born in the cloud where things were almost natively agile because the Agile Manifesto had been published by that point. They just inherently get agile. So these mental models of your organizational system being a machine get reflected in the language. So things like people or resources, it turns them into objects. It enables something I've heard called pencil management. Wear them down to a nub, go get a new one. In fact, if you do the research on where the word resources was first applied to human beings, it might shock some people. So I don't talk about that openly. They'll have to find me privately. I'll be happy to point you out the reference. And once I do, it's like, ooh. But one of the jokes I'll crack. And this is one of the ways that you can start to shift the language. If people call you resources, because you know that turns you into an object, start calling them overhead. Brian (11:23) Yeah. Ha ha ha. Bernie Maloney (11:48) Okay, it can kind of make the difference there. Okay, so, but you know, if things are moving faster and they're harder to plan and predict, that mental model needs to shift. In fact, in agile, we talk about you need to move to sense and respond. When things are moving faster, it's kind of like Gretzky, skate to where the puck is going. You need to sense and respond to the situation. So a better mental model instead of a mechanism is an organism. Because think about organisms, like cut yourself, it heals, okay? It senses and responds. Or like a forest fire comes in, wipes things out, and nature always kind of fills things back in. Sense and respond. This gets reflected in the language. So Brian, do your clients talk about metrics? Brian (12:37) Of course, yes. Bernie Maloney (12:38) Okay, cool. So do they talk about efficiency? Brian (12:41) I would say a lot of businesses will talk about that. Yeah, sure. Bernie Maloney (12:44) Yeah, cool. That's the language of machines. Probably better language is diagnostics instead of metrics. That invokes some of the curiosity. And probably instead of efficiency is effectiveness. One of the things I'll say is scrum is not efficient. It's not about utilization of capacity. It's about the production of value, which is all about effectiveness. See, efficiency or effective. Do you go to your doctor for an efficient treatment? or ineffective treatment, Brian. Brian (13:16) Effective, hopefully. Bernie Maloney (13:17) Awesome. Do you go for blood metrics or blood diagnostics? Brian (13:21) Yeah, diagnostics for sure. Bernie Maloney (13:23) Yeah, so now you're starting to get some hints about how you can start to shift the mental model. What you're really doing with Agile, y 'all, is you're shifting the culture, and culture is hard because it's not visible. The tools, the processes, the practices that folks like Brian and I will teach and coach, they're super visible, they're super valuable, but they're often not enough to start to change things. So, Brian, would you say most of your listeners are familiar? familiar with the language of Tuchman of forming, storming, norming, and performing. Brian (13:56) I'd say there's probably a good percentage, yeah. Bernie Maloney (13:58) Cool. I actually like to draw a Satir curve. So Bruce Tuckman, Virginia Satir, they were contemporaries. They were both just researching human systems. So Virginia did a performance axis on the vertical and a time axis on the horizontal. And the way Virginia described it is you're kind of going along in a certain status quo. And so you're kind of along that baseline. And then a foreign element enters and some change. And then you descend into chaos. And you can't see it. like your performance goes down until you have a transformative idea and then through some practice and integration, you rise to a new status quo. This happens to people all the time when they introduce changes in their life like New Year's resolutions. I'm going to get fit and healthy this year. You know, it's a beach body time. And you start doing it and it's like, this is so hard. You're in chaos. And what human beings want to do is they want to go back to the way things were instead of moving through. OK, this happens when you introduce agile into your organization. You'll hear Agilist talk about this as the Agile antibodies. You introduce it, this is so hard, and people want to go back to the way things were instead of kind of moving through. So the tools, the processes, the practices, they're really good, but they're not powerful enough. You got to start changing the culture. Culture is like what we all swim in, but climate is something that you can start to affect. So climate is a little bit closer in to your team, and you can start talking about these mental models. Like when I was at TiVo, I was hired into TiVo to bring Agile in because I had shipped TVs, I knew about Agile. And I was hired in on, I think I can say this now because we're more than a decade past. Have you all ever streamed anything? Yeah, okay. So TiVo was working on that in like 2009, 2010. I got to see that stuff and I was like, really wish I had taken off for them. But that program... Brian (15:42) yeah. Bernie Maloney (15:54) disbanded, okay, and the culture kind of spread in the organization. And I knew that this was a possibility, so when I brought it in, I made sure I didn't just work with my team that was doing a Skunk Works project, where we were just kind of doing some internal development that we weren't, you know, or stealth is probably a better word these days. So a stealth program inside of TiVo that you couldn't talk about. I knew that... when Agile would spread, it would hit some of this resistance, these antibodies. And so I made a case for bringing in people from outside my team so that it was familiar. And when that program disbanded, it organically spread on the cloud side of TiVo because of some of this stuff. So within your own team, you can kind of create a climate. And then when you start to see results like that, that's going to start attracting kind of the rest of the culture that's there. But these mental models, like shifting from mechanism to organism can really help an organization recognize where their limiting beliefs are about how things go. And it's going to be reflected in language. So if you like dive into anthropology a little bit, you're going to recognize that it's really well established. You can change a culture by starting to change the language. And all of us, okay, if you're observing what's going on in Eastern Ukraine here in 2024, that's what's going on. with the Russian occupation, they're changing the language because that's going to change the culture. That's why they're doing stuff like that. So, and even language starts to shape the mental models that you've got. A good example of something like that was when European, you know, when European explorers is the language I'll use, came to the Americas, the natives didn't really have a language for ship. And so they saw these people coming in floating on the water. And that was the way that they could describe it. So even language kind of gets into a cultural sort of a thing. So these are techniques that you can put into your toolkit. Start shifting the language to start shifting the culture, which can kind of help with the mental models. When you got the mental models, that's where the language starts to come from. If you don't have the mental models, you're probably not going to have the language. And I encourage all the folks I work with, start shifting from the whole idea of mechanism to organism. Okay, Brian, was that 15 minutes? Did I go on for as long as I predicted I would? Brian (18:27) About 15 minutes. Yeah. No, but I think that's a good point. There's a thing that I'll talk about a lot of times in my classes where I would all say, you know, the waterfall paradigm is one that's based on manufacturing. And there's a false understanding of what we're doing as manufacturing and it's not. It's more research and development. So you have to kind of shift the process to be one that's more conducive. to research and development. So that's very much in line with what you're talking about here. I love that. Bernie Maloney (19:01) Yeah. Do you think people would appreciate some book references that can kind of like help you? Okay. So specifically on that whole ethos of experimentalism that you just touched on, Brian, I'm currently going through Amy Edmondson's The Right Kind of Wrong. Really good book. Now, Amy is well known because she helped establish psychological safety as a super important topic in organizations. Brian (19:07) absolutely. Absolutely. Bernie Maloney (19:30) So she was coupled, I think, with Project Aristotle at Google. And in this book, she unpacked some really interesting stuff. She talks about failure, and there's types of failures. There's basic, there's complex, and there's intelligent failures. OK, intelligent failures, they're just native to science. You know things are going to go wrong. You're going to have Thomas Edison, the I Found 1 ,000 Ways. to do a light bulb wrong, sort of. That's like intelligent failure. Basic failure, she breaks down into, let's see, neglect and inattention. And those are the things that you really want to start to squeeze out of a system. With that mental model of a mechanism, I would say a lot of, call it management, tends to think of a lot of failures as basic failures. And that's where blame starts to come into a system. Okay, so now we're back into psychological safety. Okay, where you want to establish, you know, that was an honest mistake. Hence the talk title of make new mistakes. Okay, so you can have processes and procedures that can kind of squeeze out some of those basic failures. Complex in the middle is really interesting to talk about. As I'm getting into the material, she unpacks... Now, complex failures are those chain of events, you know, Brian (20:30) Yeah. Yeah. Bernie Maloney (20:54) This thing and this thing and this thing all had to line up and go wrong at the same time for this catastrophic failure to go on. And in medicine, which is where her original research was, they talk about it as Swiss cheese. And she says, if you go into a lot of medical administrators' offices, you're going to find some model of Swiss cheese there. Because they talk about it's like all the holes have to line up for something to go sideways on you. So complex failures. It's a chain of events, a bunch of little things. And she points out that in the research, these often happen when you have an over -constrained system where there's no slack, where you're trying to operate with, get this, Brian, 100 % efficiency. You're trying to load everybody up. So that is just like, it's not just juice on psychological safety, but like, looking at the whole idea of intelligent failures that we want to encourage versus constraining out basic failures versus working to reduce those complex failures and not just thinking complex failures are basic failures, but they're systemic failures that then might be part of the system, might be part of the mental model that's going on that's there. So super juicy stuff. Brian (22:11) Yeah, yeah, that's really good stuff. I've always loved Amy's work and I feel, you know, silly calling her Amy. But Amy Edmondson's work has always been great. Yeah, Professor Edmondson. She, the work on psychological safety, I think was just amazing. And the examples she used in her research are amazing. And, you know, all the stuff with Project Aristotle. Bernie Maloney (22:20) Okay, Professor Edmondson, yeah. Brian (22:36) I love the concept of psychological. I mean, again, not to make this the topic of our podcast, but, you know, I love the idea that they, they, they found that psychological safety was, so foundational that nothing else mattered. That if you didn't have that, that not no matter what else you layered on top of it, it would not fix the problem that you didn't have psychological safety. Bernie Maloney (22:58) Yep. And that's one of the reasons why I say Agile is actually a social technology more than anything else. I mean, that's why it's people and people over processes and tools. This is really a social technology that we deal in. Brian (23:10) That's a great way to put it. I love that social technology. Awesome. I love that. Bernie Maloney (23:14) So kind of talking about Amy and psychological safety and kind of all these systems that we're talking about, another mental model that I like to give particularly my product owners, going back to that Mobius loop. and like on the right hand side is all about delivery, okay, that's where you give team solutions to build. That's what a lot of organizations do. Versus on the left hand side with discovery, it's all about problems to solve. So I like to encourage my clients to instead of just giving people solutions to build, give them problems to solve. Now, for product owners, if you imagine like an onion that's kind of stretched out left to right, so kind of an odd long little onion. Brian (23:41) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (23:58) and on the far right is your sprint. And then as you go to the left, you're at a release, and further out to the left, you're in roadmap, and way further out into the left, you're into these vague things like vision. So product owners kind of deal with this whole span of things. And in between, product and sprint goals start to make things a little bit more concrete. Okay, and... One of the things I'll do for my product owners is I'll take that Mobius loop and I'll overlay it on a planning onion like that and go, do you get to see how, like what we're talking about here, you're starting out way vague in discovery and you're getting way more concrete as you get into delivery and into the sprint. And really the job of Agile and Scrum is both. It's not just about turn the crank on the machine. In fact, I think it's unfortunate that there's a book title out there of twice. the work in half the time. I actually like to pitch this as more it's about twice the value with half the stress. Okay, now as you imagine that Mobius loop kind of overlaid, one of the things I'll unpack for folks is when you're way out in that vision area, there's a lot of uncertainty that's there, okay? And you're actually going to have to do discovery. You may have to run some experiments. Brian (24:58) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (25:24) Okay, and it's only as you get closer into delivery that you want to get closer to certainty. And really, that's kind of the job of a product owner is squeezing uncertainty out of the system. Initially through discovery of the problem to solve, who to solve it for, what the market is, but it's the job of the whole team in Agile to squeeze that uncertainty out of the system. Brian, I'm sure you've had folks like talk about spikes. You ever have people get wrapped around the axle about like including spikes in their product backlog? Brian (25:48) Yeah, for sure. yeah, for sure. Bernie Maloney (25:54) Cool, the way that I frame that up, okay, so here's a mental model. That's just technical uncertainty that you've uncovered. Great, okay, so now we've got to go squeeze that uncertainty out of the system. So stop getting wrapped around the axle on stuff like this. Just like stop trying to plan and predict things. Instead, kind of get into sense and respond on all of them. And there, I've kind of brought it around full circle for you, Brian, for where we started. Brian (26:09) Yeah, no. No, that's great. That's great stuff. And I love the fact that we can bring it back full circle. Well, this is fascinating. And like you said, we could press play and go on this for another half hour very easily. But we'll be respectful of people's time here and keep it to our normal time length. Bernie, I can't thank you enough for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us. And... what you've learned over your years of working in this profession. Bernie Maloney (26:50) Thank you so much for asking me, Brian

Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they dissect the vital roles and responsibilities of the product owner, from story mapping to stakeholder management. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone looking to sharpen their Agile skills and understand the nuanced demands of a product owner. Overview In this insightful episode, Brian and Mike Cohn explore the multifaceted role of product owners in Agile development, discussing everything from market analysis and vision creation to the nuts and bolts of sprint planning and retrospectives. Emphasizing flexibility and adaptability, Brian and Mike offer a comprehensive look at how product owners can excel by focusing on strategic planning and fostering strong team dynamics. This episode is essential for product owners seeking to enhance their impact in Agile environments and drive successful outcomes. Listen Now to Discover: [1:07] - Brian welcomes special guest Mountain Goat Software and Agile Alliance founder Mike Cohn. [1:31] - Brian introduces Mountain Goat Software’s What Happens When for a Product Owner, and Mike flips the script, setting Brian, as the creator, into the guest seat on this episode. [3:16] - Join Brian as he explores the vital, behind-the-scenes efforts of product owners that set the stage for Scrum success, all before the first sprint begins. [6:24] - Brian explains the dynamics of crafting a product vision, clarifying how much responsibility lies with the product owner and how much is shared with the team. [7:46] - Brian offers expert guidance on the optimal timing for creating a story map within the Scrum process. [9:46] - Brian and Mike explore the optimal quantity of backlog items to have ready before adding them to a sprint. [13:45] - Join Brian as he explains the importance of setting a product goal in Scrum, detailing how it enhances functionality and guides the development process. [17:03] - Brian invites you to download Mountain Goat Software’s What Happens When for Product Owners, a comprehensive guide designed to support your Scrum journey. [17:43] - Brian explains how to effectively integrate road mapping into the Scrum process, ensuring it adds valuable foresight and preparation without causing shortsightedness. [19:55] - Mike suggests a strategy for managing stakeholders who overemphasize the product roadmap, offering a creative approach to preserve the flexibility and adaptability that effective road mapping allows. [22:48] - Brian delves into the critical role and strategies of effective sprint planning, essential for driving successful Scrum projects. [24:20] - Brian offers his perspective on the significance and involvement of the product owner in the daily scrum, detailing their role and contributions. [26:15] - Mike recounts a memorable story about receiving exceptionally impressive customer feedback at trustworthy.com, highlighting the impact of genuine client interactions. [28:30] - Brian emphasizes that the product owner is an integral part of the team and its goals, underscoring their collaborative role rather than being separate. [29:18] - Brian explores the crucial involvement of the product owner in the backlog refinement process, detailing their responsibilities and impact. [30:48] - Brian explains why he views the sprint review as the product owner's event and offers strategies for executing it effectively. [32:17] - Brian delves into the product owner's essential participation in the retrospective, emphasizing that their insights and experiences are crucial for the team's growth and improvement. [34:10] - Brian outlines ways the product owner can proactively prepare for the next sprint, ensuring a smooth transition and effective planning. [35:27] - Brian discusses a key pitfall that product owners should avoid to ensure success in their role. [37:35] - Brian shares a big thank you to Mike for taking over this episode of the show. [37:57] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [38:08] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast and share the episode with a friend who could benefit. [38:56] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mike Cohn What Happens When For Product Owners trustworthy.com Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors, we are back. We are here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm here as always, Brian Milner, and today I have the big man back with me, the OG, we've got Mike Cohn in the house with us. Welcome in, Mike. Mike (00:15) Hey, Brian, thanks for having me back. Brian (00:18) Always happy to have Mike here. Always a pleasure to have him here and learn from his experience. And really, really grateful he's here. We wanted to have Mike on because we have something that we put together recently. Honestly, it's kind of been something we've been talking about we just haven't put together. We had a document that we had out there called What Happens When for Scrum Master. And we just didn't have one of those for a product owner. So I did some work there on the side on that and put it together. And we're getting that out for people so that you can find that and download it from our site. And we wanted Mike to come on to share his wisdom in that area as well, because a lot of this is stuff that I put together. But we wanted to get Mike's insights on these areas as well. Does that sound about right, Mike? Mike (01:11) That's what we agreed to do, but it's not what I'm going to do. Brian (01:14) Okay. Sounds good. Mike (01:19) I'm going to turn the tables on you, Brian, because it's your PDF. It's your document. You're the ideas behind this. So I kind of want to turn it around and take over. I'm going to kind of interview you, ask you things. I mean, I'll chime in with opinions here, of course. I can never shut my mouth long enough to not share an opinion. But it's your PDF. I want to ask you some questions about it, if that's OK with you. And I assume we'll have the link for this in the show notes for folks. They can get the. Brian (01:41) Sure, fair game. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they'll be in the show notes. Anyone can find this. If you want to download it now and follow along, just pause, you know, go find that in the show notes and you can follow along as we talk through this. Mike (01:55) Great. So Brian, you separated the document out into things that a product owner does. And of course, I mean, kind of naturally you did it by timeframe, right? Do this before you even go and do this every sprint, things like that. I want to talk to you about some of the stuff that we do before the project that a good product owner should do before a project. You had in there a couple of things like do market analysis and create a vision. You tell me more about what you would expect of a great product owner in that world. Brian (02:25) Yeah, that first bullet point, what I was trying to capture is that there's some behind the scenes kind of product, standard product work that we don't really account for in a scrum sense. Things like market analysis and trying to understand the competitive landscape. There's a whole discipline there of activity and work that goes on behind the scenes. And I think it's important to understand, that Scrum isn't in any way saying throw that out or that that's not needed, that is something that would come, in my opinion, before you even begin this kind of work. Scrum does not include in it a process that would say, let's verify that they should fund this product. Let's do a pitch. So the CEO of, you know, here's why you should have this product. That's what I was trying to capture in that first bullet point is just understand there are some standard kind of product development work that goes on that we're not, we're kind of skipping over a little bit. Mike (03:36) That's one of the things I've always loved about Scrum is that Scrum is silent, deliberately so on many topics. And occasionally I will have somebody that I'll meet and they'll say, Scrum doesn't say how we should do product envisioning, right? It doesn't say how we should do that. So I guess we don't do it. It's like, well, Scrum doesn't say that you should code, right? Nowhere in the Scrum guide does it say code your software product, right? Yet if you're doing a software product, somebody's coding, right? Somebody's doing something. And so I like that Scrum is deliberately silent on a lot of things like this because you're talking about doing this market analysis. I work with plenty of companies that are doing internal software. And if we're doing internal software, we're not going to do a market analysis, just kind of internal user needs analysis perhaps, but it's going to be very different. And so I do like that flexibility there. Brian (04:13) Hmm, yeah. Yeah. So that's a good point, though, is depending on the product, it is sort of more as needed or as it would fit. Like you said, if it's an internal product, it's going to look very different than if you're doing a public -facing one. Mike (04:40) I think for any of the steps that you've outlined, I think they can vary. I'm sure some are going to be the same for everybody, but I always think of it as commercial development, right? We're making Microsoft Word, right? I think of it as in -house development, right? We're making a payroll system to pay our employees or contract development are kind of the three big branches to me. And then things get very different within those three types of development. I'm thinking more product development there specifically, but of course we can be using this for non -product things. Brian (05:10) Well, and I do want to say that that second bullet point, they're talking about vision. That's where I honestly, from my perspective, that's where the product owner portion of this begins, right? Because that's sort of the first thing you need to do. And in fact, when we teach our CSPO class, this is, you know, if you've been through a CSPO class with us, you will recognize this order because that's exactly how we go through it in our CSPO class, very deliberately. You know, that Mike (05:39) I'm sorry, I was getting off there, but I was getting interested in something you're saying there. So product owner kind of starting with the vision. I know that the team can influence the vision, right? But where would you draw the line or how much of the vision is the product owners? Is it like, you know, I'm the product owner dictator. Here's my vision, shut up and build it. Brian (06:02) Yeah, I don't know that there's one answer there. I mean, I have seen in certain situations where it's more of a group effort. And that might be part of that earlier genesis of the product, where we go through an effort to define the vision with other key stakeholders, with leaders in the organization. I do think that there is sort of a separate activity that I would take with the team itself. So I might spend a deal of time with key stakeholders developing a vision, but then I might also then have a separate meeting with the team once that's established to say, you know, here's kind of what we're defining it as. Let's walk through this. Tell me if you agree, disagree, or how you might improve or change this. Just so that we, you know, part of our job as a product owner is to cast that vision. and help people get caught up in the excitement for what it is we're trying to do. So that's kind of the purpose there I see of doing that. Mike (07:04) Yeah. Yeah, the more excited we get people about it, the better off we're going to be throughout the course of the project. You also have some things in here about things to do before the first sprint about identifying users, possibly go into the persona level, but then also story mapping. I want to ask you about the story maps for a second. What's your guideline? Because somebody asked me this recently, I'm curious on your answer. What's your guideline for when we should create a story map? Do you do always, only at the start, only in the middle? What's your advice? Brian (07:35) Creating it, I always created at the start. I mean, my, just, and again, this is my experience, right? But what I have found to be useful is to do it at the beginning. And it's sort of right in that order, right? I've done the vision, I've talked, I figure out who my users are. And then I wanna know what the general big picture is for my product. I wanna be able to step back from a 50 ,000 foot view and say, all right, here's kind of the step by step of what we're gonna be doing. Because, you know, kind of like a product backlog, it's a living, breathing document. It's not done, you know, we do it once at the beginning of our product and then it's done set forever. It's constantly adapting and changing as we add new feature areas, as we, you know, understand differently how our users would interact with the product. We're going to adjust and change it. I want it to always reflect reality. Mike (08:30) Do you, so let's talk about reality there. I mean, I agree with that, but what I see is story maps that are hard to keep up to date. Are you seeing teams that really succeed at keeping them up to date all the time? I know the living breathing thing for like a couple months and then it's like the dusty old story map, right? Brian (08:47) Yeah, well, this is kind of one of the things where it was kind of hard for me to put this in a time frame because there's really two time frames that I would like this to appear in. Yes, I do think we should do it before the first sprint. And by the way, again, there, I would do this in multiple rounds with different sets of stakeholders. But then once it's established, I kind of would slide that into that quarterly kind of activity to say, we may not touch it every quarter, but every quarter I would want to... Mike (09:03) Sure. Brian (09:16) check in on it and just say, is this still accurate? Do we need to adjust it? Do we need to do anything different about it? Mike (09:16) Okay. see that. A couple of the things on the before the first spring here, you've got identify assumptions, possibly test some of those, and then create a product goal. And then the last couple of you got, you know, get enough of the backlog written to get started. And a sprinkle, how much of the backlog do you think a team should have to get going? I mean, I know it's probably not like seven and a half items, but you know, you're looking for, you know, one sprint, one or two sprints, eight sprints. Brian (09:45) Bye. Well, no, Mike nailed it. It's seven and a half. Seven and a half items. No, just kidding. Now we can start. No, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, that's why I use the term enough, right? What is enough? Well, you know what enough is, right? You kind of know what that is. There's a, you know, there's a goal that we have in general that we've, lots of us trainers and coaches have put out there to say, Mike (09:52) seven and a half backlog items. There we go. Once you've written seven and a half, we can get started. Brian (10:14) you want to aim for about two to three sprints worth of items that are in ready to go shape. They're ready to move into a sprint and start at any given time. I don't know that you need two to three sprints to start. Yeah, I mean, I think you need, I think there's sometimes a hesitancy in teams to get everything documented upfront. And I'm trying to help people kind of push past that to say, no, we don't need to have everything. Mike (10:25) That's a start. Brian (10:42) We just gotta have enough to start. And when I'm working with a team, I wanna get them into that first sprint as soon as possible because they're gonna learn much more from just doing it than they are from talking about it beforehand. That's why I've never been a real big fan of like a sprint zero or something like that because it just doesn't take a whole sprint to do everything that you need to do to get ready for your first sprint. Mike (10:58) Right. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, to me, I always put it in terms of like, we're gambling our time, right? Is it worth gambling more of our valuable time writing more backlogs, or should we just play and get started? And if we're a company whose name is invoices are us, right? You know, should we go ahead and write some stories about the invoicing part of the system? Yeah, I bet we should. But if we're not sure that, I don't know what we're building, but if we're not sure invoice is going to be part of it, don't write anything about that on the backlog yet. Just put one big item, do invoices, right? Break it down when you get there. So. Brian (11:36) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you typically know where you need to start. You know, there's a million things you could do. But when you have a big idea for a product and you're starting fresh and you're starting new with it, at least in my experience, again, I found like, I always know where I'm starting. And that's what I would encourage you to do is just get it out there, get it started. Even if you don't have all the different features and aspects of it thought through, that's OK. Mike (11:44) Right. Brian (12:05) You just want to start making progress so you learn. Mike (12:08) That reminds me of something I've shared with a lot of leadership teams that I've met with over the years, which is that I'll tell them that they're basically solving the wrong problem. And they're trying to answer the question of what should we build? What should the product be? And that's totally the wrong question. The right question is what should we build next? What's that next one or two steps that would tell you what the next four or five steps will be? And so simplify the question, not what are we building, but what are we building next? And I think you're right there. Brian (12:26) Yeah, yeah. Mike (12:36) one sprint worth is enough and put in the backlog if you need to write more backlog items. Go from there. Brian (12:41) Yeah. And I don't want anyone to hear us incorrectly here. I mean, part of the reason that we had them there to identify assumptions and try to test hypothesis is I don't want to open a, the silly example I always use in classes, I don't want to open a store that sells lip balms online and not test whether people want to buy lip balm online or not. There's some fundamental assumptions that you're going to have to test and know. Mike (12:48) Thank you. Brian (13:11) probably before you're gonna even get with a team and start getting up and running on this. And that should happen here. Mike (13:16) Yeah. I was with a company, this is years ago, they were in Boston, we finished the engagement, I'm walking next to my rental car, and one of the guys walks out with me, one of the like VPs, and he's like, I got a question for you. He says, how often should we cancel projects? And I said, Brian (13:34) Seven and a half. Mike (13:35) I don't know, seven and a half. I said, I don't know. So I don't know how often, but you should be canceling a fair number of projects. You get started, you find out it's going to take twice as long as you thought, or you get started, and it's not really going to deliver the value that you hoped for. So you stop. And he's like, I thought so. He said something like, I've been here, I think, eight years, we've never canceled a project. And it's like, OK, that's bad. You should get into these and find out your assumptions are wrong. Brian (13:51) Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Mike (14:04) I want to talk about your quarterly items on here. And you've got a couple, let me just kind of read some of these here. So you've got establish a product goal. That's a relatively new thing in Scrum. I mean, I still think of 2020 as relatively new, but as a old timer with Scrum, product goal is one of the newer enhancements. You've got doing the story writing workshop. So you're supporting what you said there. Talk to me about the product goal here. Brian (14:19) Yeah. Yeah, so I feel silly talking to Mike Cohen about what a product goal is. Product goals are just that neck, they're a milestone, right? And that's typically the way I talk about this in class is to say, especially when you're starting something new, you may not know everything that you're gonna do, but you know the next big thing that you need to accomplish. You know the next big mile marker that you're gonna hit in the life of your product. Mike (14:56) Mm -hmm. Brian (14:59) And that's what we want to establish with the product goal. Something that's going to take longer than a sprint, multiple sprints to do. I've got this in the quarterly section. And that's kind of how we tend to talk about it a lot here at Mountain Goat. But even in class, we'll even say quarterly -ish. Right, right, bigger than a sprint. And sometimes it'll be longer. Sometimes it'll be shorter. That's OK. Mike (15:16) It's the bigger than a sprint section, right? Brian (15:25) You just want to have that big thing that the team can keep their eyes on and kind of know, you know, here's, you got a sprint goal that tells us why what we're doing in this sprint is important and how my small task feeds into that. And you've got this product goal to say, how does the sprints work fit into this bigger picture of what we're trying to do? So you're making those... Mike (15:47) Yeah. Brian (15:50) connections consciously for the developers so that they are not just, hey, here's a laundry list of stuff to do, but here's the objective we're trying to accomplish. Mike (16:01) Yep. I think it's important to have something that's out there bigger than a sprint. A sprint is just, it's just kind of suboptimizing, right? I think about if you're climbing a mountain and a sprint is like, what's the highest thing I see and just always walk into the highest thing you see. Meanwhile, those are all false summits. The real summit is, you know, behind some valley, but you don't see it because you don't set out that bigger goal. And I like how you talked about it quarterly because if the goal's too big, if it's too far out there, we're not going to feel very motivated. about it. I had this the wackest example of this. I hope the guy's not listening. Actually, I hope he is. But he was told me he was on a project with the large particle collider. And he said his whole project won't be due for 40 years, right? I mean, I don't get it. But it's like they've got to run like 40 years worth of data before it's like totally done. And I just picture myself showing up for work on a 40 year project, right? Brian (16:31) Right. Yeah. Mike (16:57) I know you, you're going to be reading Dallas Cowboys news for the first 35 years, right? You know, sports news and you know. Brian (17:04) That's a 40 year project too. Mike (17:07) Well, you're not going to take it serious for 35 years. Then you're going to wake up and go, the deadline's only five years away. I better get to work on this. And then what I would do is realize, wow, I'll be retired after 40 years. So anyway, I've been silly. But I mean, you're on a project with a 40 -year deadline. How do you say motivated? And I think three months is a really good time where I can see a bigger impact than a sprint. But it's not so far. Brian (17:15) Right. Right, right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Mike (17:34) that that student syndrome kicks in and I feel, I don't really have to worry about it. Let's go to a long lunch. We'll get to work on it tomorrow. So I do like the quarter -ish approach there. You mentioned here a couple others here. These are probably straightforward, but manage and maintain the economics of your project, assess stakeholder relations, and road mapping. You want to talk about any of those, maybe road mapping especially? Brian (17:46) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, road mapping, I think, is an important aspect. I mean, it kind of goes along with that product goal. But I do get people who come through a product owner class that will say, I don't like this approach because it seems like it's all so short -sighted. And we're not really having the big picture of where we're going. And in my world, we have this year -long thing, or 10 year. I've worked with some teams that build automobiles and they're on a three -year release cycle. They're working on the model year that's three years ahead. I've worked with some teams that do aerospace kind of stuff and they're working on a space launch that's multi -years out in the future. Mike (18:34) Yeah. Brian (18:43) And when you ask them, how certain are you that you're really going to be working on this five years from now? Pretty darn certain, right? Because it's there. We're building toward that launch date's going to be there. So I think that that roadmap is an important step for a product owner. Now, I just want to be clear about this. When I say a roadmap, I'm not talking about setting hard and fast dates and saying, we're going to be here by this date. We're going to be there by this date. Mike (18:50) Yeah. Brian (19:12) It's okay for us to say, here's kind of where we feel things are gonna fall, but I really am a strong proponent of the forecasting method, like kind of looking ahead and seeing, you know, kind of based on yesterday's weather kind of thing, right? Here's what the weather was like at this time last year. So it's probably a good indicator of where we're gonna be at this season this year, that sort of thing. So I'm a proponent of the forecasting forward. And I think a roadmap can fall very well in line with that because we can slot things and say, here's kind of this quarter's, here's the next quarter kind of things that we're thinking that are gonna take place. And if one thing moves forward or backwards, one of those sections, that's not a big deal. It's not gonna change earth shatteringly the course of our product, but it does allow for preparation. And that's what I think is the most important thing that people lose sight of in sort of forecasting and projecting forward is why do we do this in the first place? Well, we do it most of the time because there's someone else who needs to get ready. They need to be prepared. They need to be ready when this is delivered to do XYZ. And that's what we're trying to accomplish with this. We can do that with forecasting. Mike (20:32) Yeah, I think you talk about taking those things seriously. And if we miss one, it's not the end of the world. Except there's always somebody in an organization who's going to say it is the end of the world. The danger for me with roadmaps is how serious people take them. They'll look at it and go, we got a roadmap. It says we're going to come out with this in 12 months. I bet we're going to do exactly these 12 things. And so that literalness to a roadmap. Brian (20:50) Yeah. Mike (20:59) is scary. I've only done this a couple of times, but I like the result is I put together roadmaps for with teams in a couple of organizations. And we kind of modeled them on the idea of the old, I don't know, 200 or 300 year ago, 400 year ago maps, right? And you would have like, you know, the. horrible map of what the world looked like, right? And there'd be Darby Dragons right on the edge of the map. And we actually did that on a roadmap, right? It had stacks of items are going to be delivered. You know, this, this six months, this six months. And then below there, we had just put a few things in kind of an unreadable font at Darby Dragons below there. Trying to reiterate that you can't take this that literally, but there often is somebody who's like, my annual bonus is tied to that box on the roadmap. Brian (21:24) I'm going to go ahead and close the video. Right. Well, you can see this in, you know, I'm not going to get on a tangent here on safe, but you even see this in safe when people do things like PI planning and they plan out the next quarter. One of the pitfalls that I think a lot of organizations fall into when they do that is that they see it as a commitment. That the team is making a commitment to getting all that work done in that PI, in that program increment. And that's not the way it's intended. It's intended as here's our loose plan. We know what we're going to do in the next sprint, but the other sprints are Mike (21:48) Right. Yep. Brian (22:17) more fluid and we'll adjust as we need to. Mike (22:20) Yeah, I've written so many times about a plan is not a commitment or commitment is not a guarantee, right? You know, I can make a commitment to this. I'm going to commit to do my best. We're going to commit to try to achieve these. But I love a Clint Eastwood quote, one of his movies. He said, if you want a guarantee, buy a toaster. Right. So. Those are the days when supposedly banks used to give you a toaster when you open a new account, right? That. Brian (22:25) Yeah, yeah. you can guarantee a toaster in today's world. Well, we joke in our family because my wife's grandparents have a, well, they're no longer with us, but they had a refrigerator that was from the 1950s that was sitting out in their barn that still worked perfectly. But we had, you know, our refrigerator is, you know, five years old and it's already breaking down and you have to consider replacing it. So, yeah, yeah. Mike (22:49) precede my day, but I... Wow. It's all the electronics in them, I think, right? So I want to move on to the sprint planning. So from the quarterly planning. So in sprint planning, you've got this broken out by what people do in the planning meeting daily during the sprint. So I want to start in the planning meeting. You're proposing a goal and work with developers to kind of improve that, answer questions about backlog items, and talk about your schedule as the product owner share your schedule. You want to elaborate on what you're thinking about with these sprint planning activities? Brian (23:15) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I think a goal is important for the sprint. I think that gets us all on the same page and it's kind of one of the teaming aspects of it. We want to all have our eyes on the prize of what it is we're trying to accomplish together so that we're not all just in different places working on different things. I think it's important that we're there in sprint planning to answering questions because that's when they come up. We're making our plan for when we're going to do something. So I think it's important that we're there to kind of help them plan how they're going to accomplish stuff. Mike (23:59) Yep. Brian (24:08) We're not telling them how to, but we're giving them the information they need to determine how. And then, you know, as far as our schedule is concerned, I think it's a great idea for a product owner in sprint planning to say, you know, here's the next two weeks of my calendar. Here's where I'm going to be out of the office these days. I'm going to be at a client site on these days, just so that people can prepare. If I'm a developer and I know I need to get approval from my product owner and I know they're going to be out for the next two days at a conference or something, well, that might... guide me in how I'm going to plan and arrange my work. Mike (24:38) Yep. Some of my favorite POs have been ones that have done something like said, look, between one and two o 'clock every day is total team time. I will never schedule a meeting. I'll always be available if you need me from one to two or one to three or eight to nine, whatever it is, but they'll have some sort of window there that is basically guaranteed access. Doesn't mean that's the only time they're available, but it's a guaranteed time, which is nice. I think it's nice. Brian (25:04) Yeah, I love that too. Mike (25:06) Talk to me about the daily scrums and what you'd expect out of a product owner during the daily standups. Brian (25:08) Ha ha ha. Yeah, daily scrums are kind of a controversial thing here for lots of reasons, but I mean, there's some who would say a product owner doesn't need to be at a daily scrum. I disagree. I think product owners do need to be there. I don't think they're required. Actually, if you want to ask me my opinion, the only people I think are required are the developers, because it's for them, it's by them. You can't have it if they're not there. If anyone else is not there, you can still have the meeting. Mike (25:14) Thank you. Brian (25:38) But the product owner, I think, is important to try to be at as many of these as they possibly can. Because just like in sprint planning, they're making a plan for what they're doing, here it's immediately before they're going to be doing this work. So it's the time when the rubber meets the road. And here's where they're going to have some real practical questions. And if you're not there to answer them, you could hold them up. You could delay them. Mike (26:04) Yeah. Brian (26:05) I also, like you said, I like to use this as an opportunity to say, here's when I'm available today. Mike (26:10) I wake that product owners attend because of the message it helps sends as well. If the PO never goes, is this project important, right? Or team members start to think, we have to show up daily and say what we did yesterday, that that person never has to do this, you know? And we started to get some resentment towards them. So I strongly encourage product owners to attend. I'm like you, that don't require, but my requirement test is always, would I cancel the meeting if this person had a dentist appointment, right? Brian (26:16) Yeah. Mike (26:41) If the product owner had a dentist appointment in the morning of planning, I'd probably say, can we do it in the afternoon? My product owner can't make the daily scrum because I've got a dentist appointment? well. We're still doing the daily scrum. But you're right. If all of the teams, this will be silly, but if all of the team members were all having dentist appointments, yeah, we'd cancel the meeting. There'd be no point. So. Brian (26:53) Right. Yeah, the Scrum Master and Product Owner can't have a daily scrum, just the two of them. Mike (27:07) What should we make them do? Let's talk about what to do during the sprint. You talked about kind of ongoing research. So you don't want to do all the research upfront on this. Brian (27:09) Right, exactly. Right, no, it's a continual thing, right? I mean, if I'm working on my product and my competitor comes out with a killer feature that's starting to gain traction, I can't do that research upfront. That's something that becomes apparent as the product kind of goes along. So I think it's important that we keep in touch with what's going on in the real world with our product and the competitors. Mike (27:43) Mm -hmm. through the marketing, through the market. The thing you had next here was about connecting with customers to hear feedback. I want to share a story on this one because it literally just happened. I told you I was out of the office. I got back like 15 minutes before we wanted to do this recording. And I'd been gone all morning, so I talked to my wife for about five minutes. And she and I had come across some software recently that we're using that looks kind of interesting. It's things like, you know, when you die, who gets access to your Facebook? Brian (27:57) Yeah. Mike (28:18) password, right? And most of my friends are pretty shifty. So I don't want to give my Facebook password now because they'd probably go post weird things. But I want you know, when I die, I want that to happen, right? And so we're looking at various software that does those things like who do you notify when after you died? Brian (28:19) Yeah. Mike (28:35) And we signed up with this company. I'm actually going to share the name because I like them so much here in a minute, but let me say why I like them. My wife and I both had interactions with them by email about totally different things. One was a little bug that I came across and then something that I think she was asking about how does the future work. But here's what I love. They contacted her today and said, can we get on the phone with you and hear what you think about our product? They're a fairly new company, I believe. what you think about our product and what you think about how we've, in particular, have like the three tiers of service that we offer, right? You know, this feature, this feature. And I just love that they're doing that, right? Because not as many companies do that as they should, right? As they should. Because I love that company, so I'm gonna mention their name, trustworthy .com. Probably nobody listening needs them, but they are just this kind of like, you know, I don't wanna say like death planning, because they're not like playing your funeral, but it's like. Brian (29:23) Hahaha. Mike (29:28) Who gets your Facebook account? What bank accounts do you have? So your heirs can figure it out. Right. So, so. Brian (29:34) Yeah, yeah, that's great. No, I love having that mission if they're, they have good customer service. Yeah, definitely. Let's, let's mention them. Mike (29:40) Yeah, and my wife and I favorably disposed of them, and that just put me over the top with them literally a half hour ago. You talk about checking in with the Scrum Master, about how you as a product owner are doing, but also staying in touch with devs. Brian (29:46) That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's important for us to understand that we are not somehow separate from the team. We are part of the team. So we have the same goal as everyone else, and that's to deliver as much value as we can to our customers. We have a specific role, a responsibility to play in that. But I think checking in, partly I put that on there because. checking with a scrum master. That's something that we have on our scrum master sheet is to check in with a product owner. And I do think that those two need to kind of work hand in hand over the course of a sprint. And on an ongoing basis, kind of touch base to see how are things on your end? How are things on my end? And how can we help each other to kind of achieve our goals here? Mike (30:24) Yeah. Yeah, you often notice something about somebody else before they may notice it themselves, right? We've got a couple other meetings that I'll move on to. So let's talk about refinement. Can you share what your thoughts are for a product owner's responsibilities during refinement? Brian (30:43) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, refinement, I always hesitate to even think about it as a meeting because it's kind of more of a series of activities. And you might have multiple meetings that would need to take place here. But yeah, I think that there's a lot of prep work that goes into. If I'm going to have the stakeholders come in and help me prioritize, I've got to prep a lot of that work. I've got to have the stuff that's ready to go prior to that meeting. I can't just show up and go, let's see what we got in our backlog. And we'll just kind of wing it. Mike (31:02) Good point. if What do you think about this product owner? I don't know. Let me think now. Yeah. Did I write that one? Brian (31:21) Right. Right. I don't even know what that is. I don't know. Let me read it. Right. That's just going to waste everyone's time and frustrate people. So I think there's a lot of prep that goes into that and prepping to go into anything like estimation. Do we have the right sort of things that are going to be estimated? I don't want to waste my team's time estimating stuff that's maybe really a long way in the future. And I'm not going to look at it for a while. So, you know, I think there's a lot of prep time that goes into that. And I think that, you know, we're at the center, at the focal point of any kind of refinement activity. as a product owner. So that's going to be, I don't really know exactly how those meetings are going to play out for you, but I think that there is some configuration there that you got to plan for. Mike (32:02) I'm hearing your message. There is the old boy scout motto, be prepared, right? It's a new product owner motto, right? We'll, we'll steal it from the boy scouts. you have any, that's true. Just don't take away my Girl Scout cookies. So let's talk about the, the sprint review. what do you think a great product owner does then? Brian (32:06) Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, that's okay, because there's no more Boy Scouts. So you don't have to worry about that. Right. wow. So this is our event. I really think of this as the product owners event. Yeah, exactly. I think you're the emcee. I think you show up, you host it, you send out the invites for it. What I typically tell product owners is kick it off with kind of a look back at some things that have been done recently by the team. Here's some features that we developed in the past three to six sprints and maybe even show some statistics about the impact those things are making. Mike (32:30) you Showtime! Brian (32:56) on the product and the market, on the customers. Our customer satisfaction has gone from here to there as a result of releasing these features, those kinds of things. So I think that the meeting opens that way. Then we move into the demonstration of the work and what we've done in that sprint. And yes, I would turn that over in large part to the developers so that they can demonstrate. But then I think it circles back at the end to come back to the product owner to say, all right, let's take a peek ahead. Let's look ahead what's coming up in our product backlog. Here's what our... looking at as candidates for the next sprint. And I think that's really important. It gives the stakeholders a chance to speak up and say, hey, what about this thing that I had that was really important? I don't see that prioritized. I really need that in the next sprint. I want to have those conversations in advance, not after sprint planning, when it's sort of locked in. Yeah. Mike (33:45) Tell me about the retrospective. One of the things I noticed you had in there was that you want product owners to attend every retrospective. There's going to be pushback on that from some teams. What's your thought there? Brian (33:59) Yeah, my thought there is, again, kind of reiterating that point that we are on the team, we are a team member like anyone else. And again, we have different responsibilities. We have a named kind of set of accountabilities that we have that may differ from others. But I kind of consider it like this. If I'm on a, in the US, we'd say soccer team, but if I'm anywhere else in the world, I'd say football team. If I'm on that kind of a team and I'm the keeper, the goalkeeper. I've got a very unique role, right? I mean, there's a set of things I do that no one else does. I'm allowed to do things that nobody else is allowed to. I'm allowed to touch the ball with my hands. Nobody else is, right? But if there's a team meeting, you're not gonna have a team meeting without your goalkeeper. They're an important vital part of your team. And that's what this is. It's the team meeting to get together to say, how can we get better? How can we improve? What's going on? What's wrong? What's right? And what do we wanna focus on? Mike (34:36) Right. Yeah. Brian (34:58) So I think it's vital for a product owner to be at every one just because like I said, we're a team member. Mike (35:04) I agree. To me, it's always like, if you don't feel comfortable having your product owner at the retrospective, that's the first thing I want to talk about at the retrospective. Right? It would figure out why we're not comfortable with that so we can move past that. I do like here in the retrospective, you talked about having the product owner commit to making progress on the improvement items, which I think is important because sometimes it is product owners who have to improve. Right? So. Brian (35:31) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the things we'll talk about in class is how the product owner is a vital communication relay point. They are the, I call them kind of the, it slipped my mind. What's the stone that had the different languages on it from Rosetta Stone, sorry. They're kind of the Rosetta Stone, right? Because they speak tech with the developers. They speak. Mike (35:36) Mm -hmm. Rosetta. Brian (35:57) business with the stakeholders and they translate across those two groups. So I think, yeah, I think it's important that we're there to try to, if there's communication issues with us and the developers, this is the place to work it out, right? This is the place to say, what do you need from me so that it's more clear the next time I write stories. Mike (36:02) Yep. Yeah, that's a good point. What about for the next sprint? What should product owners do this sprint to be ready for the next one? Brian (36:24) Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, I think it's important that we really get a handle on what should be prioritized, that we have a good understanding of what's going to be coming up, that we have that idea of what our next proposed sprint goal might be, where we're focused on stuff. And as I said, I want to check in with my stakeholders, especially my key stakeholders, on that prioritization so that it's not a surprise to anyone. I don't want to. I don't want anything to be a surprise when it gets to sprint planning. By the time we circle back around in sprint planning, I want my developers to have looked at these things multiple times before they see it in sprint planning. We've had estimations. We've had discussions about these. So there could have been multiple times we've had conversations about these. So by the time we get to sprint planning, it's not the first time we're looking at these things. Mike (37:00) Yeah. Yeah, it should be a surprise. Brian (37:15) And that's kind of what I'm trying to allude to here is that there's a series of activities that just are kind of the glue between one sprint to the next sprint. And if we kind of drop that ball in any way, like I said, I can't show up at sprint planning and sort of just say, well, let's see what we got, guys. I have no idea what we're going to do, but let's just take a look. Yeah, I can't wing it. Mike (37:30) Right. Yeah, wing it. Yeah, that's not a good approach for things. Brian, you told me a lot of things that product owners should do. I want to twist it a little bit and ask you for one thing product owners should not do before the sprint, during the sprint, before the project, whatever. What's one thing, the one thing you would tell product owners to not do? Brian (37:57) Wow, that's such a great question. I think probably the number one thing that I would say is to understand the boundary between the what and the how, and really to try to stay out of the how. What I mean by that is we're in charge as product owners of the what side of the equation. What is it that we're going to be doing? What are we focused on? The developers are in charge of the how. How do we accomplish this? What's the best way to deliver this? And I... I know as a product owner in my past, I've always struggled with that balance of, yeah, but I've got a vision in my head of exactly the way I want it to play out. And I have to kind of rein myself back in a little bit and say, yeah, but kind of remind yourself that that's not really my role here. My role is not to explain exactly how the page is going to need to look and exactly how this feature plays out. If I have no really discernible reason that I have to have it one way over another, right? If there's not like a legal reason or compliance that I've got to do it one way, then I want to as much as possible stay out of the house so that the developers really get to exert their expertise. Mike (38:59) Right. Yeah, that's where they're going to be, they're going to be best at. I was describing it as that there's, there is a fine line between what and how, which is why people often will struggle with it. the way I think about it is like every time we dip into that, how at all product owners dip into that at all, they start to kind of take away degrees of freedom from the team. The team has less maneuvering room on how they're going to solve the problem. And great, take away one degree of freedom here and there. It's not going to be the end of the world. Take away too many, and you over -constrained the solution. The team doesn't engage as fully. All sorts of negative things, as you've touched on. Brian (39:39) Yeah. Mike (39:40) Brian, I want to thank you for letting me take over and turn the tables on you and ask you the question. Since you had made the PDF, I wanted to be the one asking you what your thoughts were on your great PDF that we have for folks. So I'll turn it back over to you. Let it be back to your show now. Brian (39:41) Hahaha I... Yeah, no, well, thank you very much. This has been a pleasure. It's been really fun to have to see what it's like on the other side of the table a little bit. So thanks for being willing to do it, Mike, and thanks for being willing to share your insights as we walked through this.

The Data Product Management In Action podcast, brought to you by Soda and executive producer Scott Hirleman, is a platform for data product management practitioners to share insights and experiences. In Season 01, Episode 003, host Michael Toland (Product Management Coach and Consultant with Pathfinder Product) talks to Panos Lazaridis (Senior Data Product Manager at The Economist). They delve into the importance of understanding organizational and user needs, data maturity and user experience, and the roles within a data product management team. About our host Michael Toland: Michael is a Product Management Coach and Consultant with Pathfinder Product, a Test Double Operation. Since 2016, Michael has worked on large-scale system modernizations and migration initiatives at Verizon. Outside his professional career, Michael serves as the Treasurer for the New Leaders Council, mentors with Venture for America, sings with the Columbus Symphony, and writes satire for his blog Dignified Product. He is excited to discuss data product management with the podcast audience. Connect with Michael on LinkedIn. About our guest Panos Lazaridis: Panos is an agile and resilient product manager specializing in data products and platforms. He loves talking about data strategy, AI, and sustainability. Panos holds BSc, MSc, MBA, CSPO, and Prince2 qualifications. Connect with Panos on LinkedIn. All views and opinions expressed are those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect their employers or anyone else. Join the conversation on LinkedIn.  

Join Brian and Marisa Smith as they dive into the world of developer advocacy, the challenges of agile methodologies in data engineering, and the vital role of open-source communities. Discover how to better support and communicate with your developers in this insightful episode! Overview In this episode, Brian Milner interviews developer relations expert Marisa Smith to explore the vital role of developer advocates in bridging the gap between companies and their users. Marisa shares her insights on the challenges of communicating with developers, emphasizing the need to create a welcoming environment for questions and feedback. She also discusses the unique difficulties developers face when implementing agile methodologies, particularly in the realm of data engineering. They highlight the significance of open-source communities in fostering innovation and collaboration and provide a preview of Marisa's upcoming talk at Agile 2024 on enhancing data pipelines with SQLMesh. Listen Now to Discover: [1:08] - Join Brian in an engaging conversation with Dr. Marisa Smith, PhD, Developer Relations Expert, Developer Advocate, and Speaker. [2:43] - Marisa Smith sheds light on the crucial role of a developer advocate, explaining how they bridge the gap between developers and the wider community. [3:49] - Brian digs into common mistakes in how we communicate with developers and poses the question: what are we getting wrong in our interactions? [5:57] - Marisa outlines the hurdles developers face in a Scrum team environment, shedding light on common obstacles. [12:00] - Marisa explores the hurdles in developer communication, offering insights into improving dialogue and understanding. [12:55] - Mountain Goat Software offers Working on a Scrum Team, a private class to help Scrum teams foster a team dynamic that supports the whole team, including bridging the gap in communicating with developer teams. [15:00] - Marisa discusses how SQLMesh has empowered data engineers to streamline their tasks, sparking a sense of 'Marie Kondoing' their work. [24:11] - Marisa emphasizes the vital importance of open-source developer communities for fostering innovation and teamwork. [26:51] - Brian shares a big thank you to Marisa for joining him on the show. [27:50] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [27:54] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Dr. Marisa Smith, PhD Join the SQLMesh Community Agile 2024 SQLMesh Working on a Scrum Team Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Marisa Smith is a Developer Relations expert who bridges the gap between the community and development teams, addressing problems and promoting open-source software. With a Ph.D. in Computational & Theoretical Physical Chemistry, she has a background in simulating radiation effects in water. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one, the only Marisa Smith with us. Welcome in Marisa. Marisa (00:13) Hi, thank you so much for having me. Brian (00:15) Very excited to have Marisa with us. If you're not familiar with Marisa, her title is Developer Relations Expert. So right there, that's an episode, right? We could talk just about that. And we'll get into that a little bit more, but there's a lot of really interesting stuff here about Marisa. She has her PhD in theoretical and computational physical chemistry. So... Marisa (00:41) Yeah. Brian (00:42) Again, wow, right? I mean, this is amazing stuff. She's worked at Streamlet. She was their very first developer advocate there. And she has since, Streamlet's been acquired by Snowflake. And you founded Tobacco Data, is that right? Marisa (01:07) Uh, no, I, um, I am their first developer advocate at Tupiqium data. Yeah. No words. Brian (01:11) OK, gotcha. Sorry about that. Messed that up. So very, very interesting background. And one of the things that caught our notice, Marisa spoke last year at Agile 2023 and is speaking again this year at Agile 2024. So again, if you're going to come out, I highly recommend you attend her talk. Her talk is called Marie Kondo. your data pipelines with SQLMesh, which I think is really, really interesting. But I'm talking too much, and I want to turn it over to Marisa here. Help us understand developer relations expert and developer advocate. What does that mean? Marisa (01:59) Yeah, so I am, what I always say is that I am the person that connects your company to the people who use your product. And it just so happens that the companies that I work for are companies that work in the tech industry. They're building some sort of piece of the tech stack. So the people that use it, their customers are other developer, developers essentially, or technical people. Brian (02:22) Yeah, so you're an expert in the... Marisa (02:27) in the art of, in the art of like, how do we communicate with other developers? How do we pass that information back and forth between the developers that are making a product and the developers that use a product. And how do we make sure that, you know, we're getting, we're, we're getting the best out of our, out of our users and that they're getting the best out of the technology that we're trying to build for them. Brian (02:49) That is so, so interesting. And so I'm sure product owners are listening going, yeah, help me. Help me. I want to understand. How do I talk to developers? So gosh, there's so many directions we can go with this. What do you think people misunderstand most when they try to communicate with developers? What do we get wrong? Marisa (02:55) hahahaha Oh, wow, that's a great question. Let me think about this for a second. I think, I think from, from, from my perspective, as somebody who spends a lot of time, like running different communities, especially open source communities, I think that people get the wrong idea in that. Yes, these developers are your customer, but a lot of the time they have very limited time. They come in, they look at, you know, maybe your open source product or, uh, you know, your free version or something that they're trying to see if they can integrate this in their own stack. And I think people can. or companies can come at them a little bit too quickly, a little bit too salesy, right? And then that ends up driving them away. They're like, no, no, no, I'm really not interested in any of this. I'm just trying to figure out if this is the right technology. A lot of developers like to iterate. They try things out, right? And so I think if you come at them too early with, oh, here's our sales process. Here's this, this is how much this costs. It's like, no, no, no, I'm like... way early, I'm MVP POC type of thing, trying to see if I can understand, or if this works with my team, my workflow, my current pipeline, the other technologies that we use, you know, that, that type of thing. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that you can make, especially when you're talking about open source, which is kind of like my bread and butter. Brian (04:28) Right, right. Yeah. And you know, the communication, especially, I mean, because we talk about Scrum and Agile here on the podcast, you know, that relationship between the business side of the house and the developer side of the house, it's almost like, you know, Romeo and Juliet and the two houses, you know, they speak different languages. They want different things. They see the world in a very different way. Marisa (04:34) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Brian (04:58) And yet somehow these two groups have to figure out how are we going to work together to really deliver something that is valuable, right? So you work with a lot of developers. You talk with a lot of developers. And I know there's lots of different kind of practices and things that are out there that developers are using these days. Marisa (05:09) Yes. Yeah. Brian (05:26) When you talk to them about something like Scrum, or when that kind of process comes up, what are some of the chief complaints that you hear from developers when they talk about working on a Scrum team? What are they not like about it? Marisa (05:44) Ooh, interesting. Yeah, I would say. I would say, I mean, in the area that I'm working in right now, I'm working pretty deep in the data pipelines. So Tobico data runs these two open source projects, SQLMesh and SQL glot. And it's essentially your T of your ETL pipeline, right? We're using SQL, we understand SQL and we're transforming your SQL queries into these tables and we're helping you manage these pipelines as they evolve over time. And so, um, and so I think, you know, in this space, what happens is when you're talking about, you know, working with scrum teams and stuff like that, one of the pieces of agile is trying out new things and iterating. And that can actually be super difficult for a lot of like these data engineers and developers to do, because you have accountability at the end of the day, right? If you're changing up your data, you're mutating some, some SQL query that changes some model that changes your data pipeline downstream. And then all of a sudden. you know, you've pushed it to production and, uh -oh, this data is not what you expected. It's not what you had like originally tested for. And that's because, you know, teams have to work across many different, um, they have many different like iterations that they're working on and many different teams are, you know, making changes potentially simultaneously. And so I think that for, for developers, when you talk about scrum and you talk about agile, particularly if you're talking about like, adjusting tooling or trying out something new again, coming back to this fact that like, you know, they're just there to test things out. They have very limited time and that's because they get stressed out. It's like, well, I don't want to break production. We have to protect production, your production environment as much as possible. And, you know, part of agile and part of doing all these things is trying, trying these new tools, trying these new companies, trying these new methods. And you can get a lot of resistance from that because. they know this method works, they know that they have accountability and they know that production will be fine if they use this methodology that they've set up. Sometimes it can be a little bit of a matchstick thing in the back end. Brian (07:47) Yeah. Well, and I mean, just hearing you talk about that and thinking about it, I know one of the big friction points between the business side and the developer side is take SQLMesh. If that's something that my team has never worked with and I have someone on the team who is interested in that and wants to, thinks it might give us some benefits, There's friction there with the product side to say, product has all these things they want, and they want to push these things forward. But I think this bit of adding this to our stack is going to improve things. But how do I communicate that to the business to give us the time to do this? Because it's not directly leading to a feature, but it will improve things moving on. How do you? How do you balance it? How do you have that conversation with a product person or the business side of the house to really say, Hey, this is worthwhile. Marisa (08:50) Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, it's super difficult. And I think it's really a balance of, you know, having to have these engineers dedicate some time to new tooling and testing things out. And then once you have done that in their schedule, you know, I don't know how frequently you may want to do it like once a month or something like that, where they, you know, take a day and just review what new is out there. What else should we be looking at? What other tools, what other... You know, with, especially with the emergence of AI and all of that recently, that changes a mile a minute, I think. So, you know, keeping on top of that is, is, is a huge burden on these engineering teams. And so time needs to be dedicated for actually getting that kind of stuff done and the freedom to actually try these things out and do like just a minimum viable product, right? Just a tiny POC with like a little Tinkit data set. And then on, I think there's some. Brian (09:23) Ha ha. Marisa (09:45) there's some weight of this on the company that's developing these open source products or new tooling, that they have to start communicating and figuring out their business value as well. Because those developers cannot, with this little example, show all of the benefits that you would get. What cost savings do you get? What efficiency savings? What increase in productivity? All of that has to be done by the company and you need to have that ready. so that you can back up your developers that are trying out your product and your open source projects so that they have something to go off of. They're like, hey, look, I made this. It took one week or something like that. And I got it to a place where it's really good and look at all these cool features. And this will make us so much faster in our pipeline. And then here is the company's documentation or case study or whatever it is that says this should increase our productivity approximately this much. And... that these other big companies that are similar to us have this sort of success with it. And, you know, it, I think those two combined can really help alleviate these pressure that the developers feel and give them the time to actually try out new tools, which in many cases they love to do. They love to try new things. They love open source, right. And they will be your best advocates. If you spend the time talking to them, communicating with them and giving them the things that they need to be successful. Brian (11:12) Yeah, I would think that's kind of a, there's a duality to, I would imagine your role in speaking with them about your product, because in one case you have to sell them on, hey, look how beneficial this is. This is, you should add this to your stack. But on the other hand, you've got to equip them with the, the, uh, the sales pitch, I guess, that they can then make to their business to say, hey, you should allow us to do this. You should give us the, whether it's finances to do this or the time or the resources to do this, that, you know, it does benefit you as well. So that's gotta be a really difficult part of that communication is kind of, you know, getting people who are not really salespeople, you know, having been a developer, I know I kind of get, you know, the personality type. Uh, and you know, we, we don't want to have to talk to people. We want to be able to put our headphones on and get our work done. Uh, but now, now I'm in the position where if I want to do this thing, I know it is the right thing to do. I've got to convince others and that's not really my strong point. So how do you, how do you help them with that? Marisa (12:24) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a long road. I would say, you know, it's not done in a split second, especially when you're talking about larger companies, like any sort of fan company. They will take a lot of time to make this decision. So you have to be really committed, I think, to each person that you're talking to and each person that you're trying to help get moving with your product to really make them successful. And... For us, what we've been doing recently is we go in and we help them with that communication point, right? Like our developers know our tool the best. And so if there needs be, like we'll stop and we will actually go in and do a presentation to the wider team and be like, okay, you guys have set up this POC. You've tried it out. You really like it. Here are the benefits. Here are, you know, here's how we describe it. Here's how, you know, We have seen other companies succeed with this and we have some decks that are basically ready to go. So we can go in and actually help them with that communication stage as well. Brian (13:34) Yeah, that's awesome. Well, then let's, because this is fascinating, and I really enjoy kind of the idea of trying to be an advocate for the developers. But I'm curious as well, with your upcoming talk at Agile 2024, by the way, just I don't think I've said the date, but July 22nd through 26th in Dallas, Texas, go to. AgileAlliance .org. You can find out more information about it. I think I've told everyone here on the podcast, I'm speaking there as well. So come and see both of us in my hometown in Dallas. So Marie Kondo, your data pipelines with SQLMesh. Tell us what was the idea behind this, where you got the idea for this talk, and what it is you're trying to get across in it. Marisa (14:18) Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, here's the story. One of our users, I was doing case studies for our, for us, because we need to understand our business value. We need to show people that like they can get this, these, you know, these cost savings, these productivity savings and things like that. So I've been doing interviews with some of the companies that currently use SQLMesh. And one of the, one of the interviewees, we were just chatting and he was like, oh, You know, he brought Marie Kondo up and he was like, yeah, like SQLMesh just brings me joy. It brings joy back to my data engineering. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. What, wait a minute. What do you mean? mean? like, oh yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we spend all of this time. Fretting Fretting about these data pipelines, getting the correct data down the pipeline, getting the business needs on the timeline that they need them, you know, updating your production value or your production environments with, with anything new that's been requested. And. Brian (15:01) you Marisa (15:21) there isn't really a proper process for data deployments, right? Like for code, you know, we have GitHub, we have Git, we have all these things, right? You make some changes, you save it, you test it out, you make some more changes, you save that, you test that out, right? Like all of these iterations, they create all these versions and these checkpoints. But on the data side of that, there is nothing. It's just like match disks and toothpicks that hold up some of these. Brian (15:30) Yeah. Hahaha. Marisa (15:49) some of these pipelines, right? And that's become the standard. I'm not saying that this is particular companies that are doing this or something like that. It's pretty much everybody. And all of this falls on top of your DevOps engineers or your data engineers that are a very small percentage of your company. And they're treading through this escalating technical debt, right? Every time you add a new table, every time you add a new dashboard, that's a new backend that they are managing, right? It becomes very stressful for them. And... This individual was saying that he had lost a lot of the joy out of his work and you spend how many hours a day working, right? This is a huge chunk of your life that it's just like, oh my God, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to make that change because the pipeline currently works. It's not broken. It's not broken. Don't change that type of thing, right? But this isn't what business is. This isn't what agile is. You're supposed to iterate. You're supposed to make these changes. You're supposed to investigate. Brian (16:24) Yeah. Right. Marisa (16:42) find new things and find new insights. And you can't do that unless you start changing things. And so he had said that once they started implementing SQLMesh with the different features that it has with this virtual data environments and these data versionings, and we have these data contracts that essentially allow you to turn, have checkpoints for your data and have essentially unit tests for your data. He was like, oh my gosh, now I can not have to worry about it. I can just try something, see if it works. And then if it doesn't, it doesn't matter because I can roll it back super easily and things like that. So that's really where the inspiration came from. Brian (17:21) That's awesome. Yeah, that's such a huge hole and it's such a needed kind of component to the stack, as you said, because, you know, I mean, you're right in kind of a programmer world. And, you know, if you're outside of the database world, there's all these tools you can use and put in place and test and see how things are going. But that fear that you have when you work in the database world where if I make the wrong error here, It could mess up all our data. It's not just that it's going to present it in the wrong way, but it could actually damage, which is a valuable asset. It's a hugely valuable asset, the data that the company has, maybe one of their most valuable assets. So yeah, that's an amazing tool. And... Marisa (18:10) Yeah. Cool. And these days, yeah. Brian (18:16) So this is also an open source project, right? So tell me how that's been interacting with the community on this and working in a corporate environment, but also it's an open source environment on this product that you're a developer advocate for. Marisa (18:19) Mm -hmm. Yep. Yeah. Well, I love it. I love open source. As I mentioned before, open source is kind of my bread and butter because Streamlit, you know, was essentially the other end. I've gone from the dashboard side, which Streamlit is basically a free open source dashboarding tool that's built just in Python, to the side of the tables that make that, and the SQL that makes those dashboards possible in the backend. And so this, it's something that I really love about my job because... I've been lucky enough to work with a bunch of tools that are super useful and that people really love, uh, and that they have that they, you know, people who co -founded it, that there are co -founders all came from huge fang companies, right? SQLMesh was basically born out of these data problems specifically to solve them because they had been literally experiencing them at these companies themselves. And they, you know, went out and were like, okay, what's the solution out there? And, you know, uh, Brian (19:21) Yeah. Marisa (19:31) There's this, there's another company called dbt. They were pretty much the first one on the scene. They've been around for like, I want to say like 10 or 15 years and they changed the space. Like they really did make some huge advancements. But the thing is, is they came at it from a completely different angle than we're trying to come at it because they came at it from the almost like the data science and data analytics side. And they weren't necessarily thinking about future, how big these data sets were going to get with. Brian (19:52) Yeah. Marisa (19:58) these different like Netflix, Airbnb and stuff like that, right? Their data sets are huge. They're parsing huge amounts of data. And, you know, in the current tools, the systems that you have, you have to refresh your entire data warehouse every time you want to make a change to production. If you have a terabyte worth of data that you're trying to refresh every single time you make a change, that literally, you're just, you're twiddling your thumbs. Your analysts are just like sitting around waiting anxiously to find out. Brian (20:03) Yeah. Marisa (20:27) you know, if those changes they just made to the sequel is actually viable and good, right? So, sorry, I think I lost. I think they lost the train of the question I got all passionate about. Brian (20:32) Yeah. No, no, no, that's fine. That's fine. No, I mean, I was just, I was asking about, you know, kind of the interactivity with the community on that and working with, you know, these open source projects, you know, you have volunteers, you have people who are giving up their time for free, basically to improve your product. That's got to come with a whole just mess of other considerations and concerns and how has that been? Marisa (21:07) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's been good. And where I had been going with that point was that I've been lucky enough to work with companies and tools that are super useful, that were developed out of pain points that other people have experienced. So that side of things has been really great. When you're trying to develop a community, I just try to make the most welcoming space so that people feel comfortable in asking any sorts of questions. Right? Because that is the only way that you kind of surface some of these things that might've been otherwise hiding. Right? If people are nervous to ask questions, then you're not going to really have a proper conversation around, Oh, well, wait a minute. How did you get to that point? Like what led you to use it this way or to do it this way or something like that. Um, and so, yeah, there's lots of considerations, but we've been lucky enough that the, you know, a lot of our users are very happy with it, but also are. Brian (21:38) Yeah. Marisa (22:01) because of that, they're very vocal and they are very happy to, you know, take that five, 10 minutes, fill that survey in or meet with me and talk through, you know, a case study or like how they found SQLMesh and how it's going and stuff like that. So I think that the real balance comes in as to how much time do you want to dedicate my time? Do you want to dedicate to doing these interviews and getting this feedback versus Like, oh, we've already got like a pretty large signal that the next feature they need is this. Like, let's just run and do that feature and get that out for them, as opposed to continuing to bog up their time with interview questions or survey questions and bog up my time with it as well. So I think that's more the balancing point is when do you start acting on the signals that you're starting to see from your community versus like just constantly collecting data? Brian (22:56) Yeah. And I love your point there about kind of creating that welcoming environment. It's very similar to what we talk about with just teams of the whole psychological safety kind of aspect of it. And if I feel like I can't say something without being made fun of or feel like I'm made to look stupid for my question, then you're right. I don't surface the things that I should, even if it's, you know, just, hey, I'm not sure how to do this and getting help for that kind of thing. Marisa (23:22) Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like with open source communities as well, they're all online. And this is a, I like that psychological safety and I like to try and promote this friendly environment because there's no guarantee that the person on the other end even speaks English. They might be running it through a translator, right? Like you have no idea. So they need to have like that safe place that they can just be like, oh, Hey, I tried this, but I couldn't get it to work. Right. And then that's when you can start to expand and be like, Oh, okay. Well, actually this person is from. Brian (23:39) Yep. Marisa (23:54) I don't know, like France, they speak French, right? So you're trying to translate kind of back and forth, either in your head or with a tool. And it's kind of like, okay, well, what else can I do to help them? Right? It's like, oh, well, what they need is a more in -depth, like getting started guide, right? We need to add these steps in or put this little note in there that's like, hey, if you get tripped up and you get this error, that's because of this and this is how you fix it type of thing, right? So that you just kind of like fill in those gaps of knowledge. Brian (24:23) Yeah. I mean, there's probably so much that we could extract just from the remoteness of the team that you work with, because open source is an area where there is no office. It's not like we all come into the same place. And yet, it works. So for people who think it can't work if you're remote, well, open source is proof that it can. Yeah. Marisa (24:37) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And not because of that, our team is a hundred percent remote as well. Right. Like our entire Tobacco team works async, right. And we're only able to do that because of different tools and processes that we have put in place and, and that we do have this community and our community is a, is a Slack community. We actually, we could put a link in or something so that people can check it out if they were interested. But, but yeah. And, and that community isn't just about. Brian (25:11) Sure, sure, sure. Marisa (25:16) that specific tool. And I think that's also another thing that you want to surface when you're talking to developers is that this isn't just a space to ask questions about SQLMesh or SQLGlot, it's a space to talk in general. What are some of the best practices around evolving your data pipelines? What, you know, do you have any questions about your DevOps? Like, you know, what, what are people using for their cloud service provider? Why? Like, you know, did you switch from this to this and, you know, What was your thoughts around that? And, you know, what do people do with a dataset that is, you know, 300 rows and, and like 700 columns, like, how do you deal with this size of data? How do you want to, like, how do others mutate it? Like, do you incrementally load it? So just like try and load in the newest data. Do you only re when do you refresh these, like all these questions and all of this conversation needs to happen because we need to start deciding on a proper process and. DBT had started doing that and we're trying to continue this conversation. Brian (26:16) Yeah, I would imagine that's working with the product as well, that that's very beneficial to even product development. Because you can hear from them, even if it's not part of your product, but if you hear those questions about, hey, well, how have you handled this, or what do you do in this kind of scenario, I can imagine that would lead you to maybe new product ideas based off of some of those conversations. Yeah. Marisa (26:43) Oh, absolutely. 100%. I don't have like a specific example at the top of my head, but I definitely... Brian (26:48) Right. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, it could come from this. So it's community, right? I mean, it's just the importance of having that community and not just being, no, we can only talk about this one product here, but no, we're a supportive community and we help each other here. Yeah. Awesome. Well, this is fascinating. And I could talk with you about this for a long, long time. I'm looking forward to your talk. Marisa (26:55) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Brian (27:16) So I haven't checked the schedule yet, but I'm gonna, hopefully it's not on one of those times when like, normally, I don't know if you find this as well, but it's like the ones that I start and think, oh, that's the one I really wanna go to, turns out to be the one where you're speaking or somebody who's a lifelong friend is talking at that time. You're like, I can't miss that person's. So I'm hoping that's not the case, cause I really wanna come and hear this talk and hear more about it. Marisa (27:17) Great, thank you. Yeah. Brian (27:45) Thank you for giving us your time and helping us to understand this, Marisa. I really appreciate you coming on. Marisa (27:49) What? Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Join Brian Milner and McCaul Baggett as they explore the power of empathy and storytelling in successful Agile transformations. Learn McCaul's five-step approach to effective communication and discover strategies to overcome common pitfalls in organizational change. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with McCaul Baggett, Chief Agile Officer at CAVU, to discuss the intricacies of communicating change within organizations. They delve into common pitfalls in Agile transformations and highlight the importance of empathy and storytelling in engaging teams. McCaul shares his five-step approach to effective communication, emphasizing the power of testimonials and spreading awareness. Tune in to gain valuable insights and practical tools for navigating and leading successful Agile transformations. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Join Brian as he welcomes McCaul Baggett, Chief Agile Officer at CAVU and a master of Agile transformation, to delve into the secrets of successful Agile transformation. [3:15] - McCaul emphasizes the critical role of storytelling in engaging and guiding teams through the process of Agile transformation. [5:57] - Brian addresses a common challenge in Agile transformations: navigating the unknown and its impact on team dynamics. [8:01] - McCaul explains how effective communication and a compelling narrative can help teams grasp their value during a transformation. [10:40] - McCaul advocates for going beyond the basic 'why' by incorporating testimonial narratives to create more meaningful connections. [14:39] - Brian suggests using these tools to foster empathy, advocating for their use in both top-down and bottom-up approaches when initiating a transformation. [16:29] - Dive into Mike Cohn's book, Succeeding with Agile, for practical advice on navigating your transformation. Discover strategies for communication, overcoming resistance, and other key aspects of Agile success. [17:54] - Brian inquires about effective ways to connect with and engage resistant individuals within the team. [22:49] - Join McCaul and Brian as they discuss the importance of creating specific best practices that suit the unique needs of this particular team and organization. [28:07] - Brian shares a big thank you to McCaul for joining him on the show. [28:33] - Join Brian in attending Agile conferences to connect with and learn from Agile experts and peers, fostering valuable discussions and insights. [29:53] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [30:35] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: McCaul Baggett Communicating Change Made Easy with McCaul Bagget and Tom Bullock Succeeding with Agile by Mike Cohn Agile 2024 Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. McCaul Baggett is the Chief Agile Officer at CAVU, specializing in Agile transformations and effective communication strategies. With a focus on empathy, storytelling, and practical tools, McCaul helps organizations navigate change and foster sustainable Agile practices. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors, we're back. This is another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one and only Mr. McCaul Baggett with us. Welcome in McCaul. McCaul Baggett (00:13) Hey, thanks Brian, really glad to be here. Brian (00:15) Very excited to have you. For those who aren't familiar with McCaul, McCaul is the chief agile officer at Cavu. He has been working in transformations for quite a long time doing some large-scale transformations at different organizations. One that he is allowed to publicly mention is John Deere, but there's others that he's been a part of as well. You know companies are funny that way. They don't always necessarily want you to publicize things for some reasons. I don't know why. McCaul Baggett (00:43) Yeah. Brian (00:44) We were joking about that earlier. But I wanted to have him call on because we were both at the Agile 2023 conference, and I saw him on the agenda, and it was one of those sessions I didn't get a chance to go to, unfortunately, but really thought it was an interesting topic. I wanted to have him come on and kind of chat with us a little bit about this. So his topic was about communicating change and communicating change in an easy way, you know, kind of making that an easy process. So let me start there with you, McCaul, on this is, what do people get wrong when they're going through a transformation and we make the decision to go through a big change in our organization? What are some of the common pitfalls organizations fall into when they make that decision? McCaul Baggett (01:34) Well, let me start by saying it wasn't me solely that was doing the talk. I did have some partners there with me. And if you look it up, you should definitely speak to them as well or look them up as well. Dana Dismukes is a transformation lead for Dell. Tom Bullock is the chief storyteller for Scrum Inc. And really the academics of the talk came out of Tom's brainchild. But through my work, I got a chance to apply it. And it was precisely because of this very issue, the ch- the- non-working approach that many organizations take to communicating about change. There's a tendency in a lot of change management structures to discuss the need for communication, but as Agilists, we don't inherently do a lot of study of the nature of communication. And so I would say probably the biggest, most common error that people in a transformation of any kind and most close to my experience in Agile transformations make in communicating about change is going about it from a way that is, from the perspective of trying to reassure their teams, their departments that this is something that has leadership endorsement by communicating from the top down. I mean, please forgive the hierarchical metaphor, but getting some senior leader to say, hey, this is gonna be great, you can do it, we're gonna do this. When in fact, the most effective way to communicate to someone, especially someone who's not fully bought in, is by telling them a story of someone who is like them, has experience like them that they can relate to. And that storytelling perspective is what we talk about in this talk, Communicating Change, maybe. Brian (03:16) Yeah, there's a lot just in there to unpack. I mean, just the idea, thinking about, I've talked with a lot of organizations and a lot of people have come through classes and stuff that I've talked with who are going through changes like this, but then they're not really even sure how much their leaders are on board with this. They just, they have some layer of management who says, yeah, this is what we're gonna do, but do the people at the top really feel that way? Do they even know what it is that we're doing? McCaul Baggett (03:34) Sure. I mean, that's even tougher. I would find it hard to even consider it a true transformation if you can't be sure your leaders are bought into it. But you're not wrong. It is stunning how often you get these folks that you run into and they say, my leadership may be willing to do this. I teach a lot of Scrum at Scale. And so we talk a lot about executive Metascrums and executive action teams and prescriptions about how involved the leader should be. And people will sort of stop and say, wait, you want a leader to meet about team obstacles every day? And I say, yeah, or however long those executives are willing to let their teams go without support to removing their obstacles. Like, what is it that they're doing that's more important than clearing the impediments for their teams? But that does tend to be the perspective is, I don't know if my leaders even bought into this change. That's tough. Brian (04:34) Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I think that speaks to some of the fundamental flaws, I think, that people have with transformations before you even get to communicating, right? Just do we know why we're here? Do we know what it is we're trying to do? Those kinds of things. I like to focus on the communication, though, here because communication is such a McCaul Baggett (04:46) Yeah, that's true. Brian (04:56) delicate beast. I mean, it just, you know, when you're trying to speak with another human, even if it's just within your team, you know, it's difficult because we're different personalities and we have different backgrounds and everything else, much less when you're talking about it over an entire organization. I would imagine, and you, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I would imagine that one of the biggest sources of kind of consternation or, you know, anxiety I think when these kinds of things happen is the unknown, just not really understanding how do I fit in and what does this mean for me. McCaul Baggett (05:33) Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Sometimes it's phrased that it's termed what's in it for me. And I think that's the wrong perspective to take. People aren't often necessarily, people are not always looking for some kind of payoff for the transformation. They don't need to know sort of what they get out of it. But I think that you really put your finger on a lot of the reason that we see trepidation with a transformation is because it implies that Brian (05:38) Mmm. McCaul Baggett (06:00) Business as it had been occurring before was not acceptable. What you'd been doing previously was not good enough. And now we need to get you to do it another way. That inherently sort of fundamentally starts with a position of questioning whether or not your position is stable. And that gets, you get some amygdala hijack stuff going on. You get the brain started worrying about existence, not just change. So you're right, contextualizing. Brian (06:26) Yeah. McCaul Baggett (06:29) your communication about this is really important. And I think taking a perspective of empathy and meeting especially resistance in a change environment, a changing environment, meeting resistance with an attempt to understand the perspective really fundamentally underpins any successful communication you're gonna have about change management in general, but communication in particular. Brian (06:52) What do you think about that, McCaul? I mean, if you're a leader in that kind of organization and you recognize this and you see, people are gonna, I'm gonna send people into a little bit of a panic, right? Because you're right, there's no way that I can hear that message, hey, we're gonna do things differently than the way that we've been doing them without kind of self-internalizing, well, that means that something I've been doing has not been acceptable, it's not been good enough, it's not been what the organization needs. How do you communicate that in a way to say, no, it's not you, right? It's kind of a process thing. It's not that you did anything wrong. It's that we found this is a better way of working. McCaul Baggett (07:30) Yeah, so I think starting with that fundamental basis of why this is occurring is really key. But even before you get to the communication about why, it's really important to figure out who it is you're speaking to. So going back to that sort of, that empathy piece, there is a need to get that communication about, okay, it's not that you did anything wrong. and here are the reasons why we're doing it, that is the message we're looking to communicate. But at a communication level, like understanding even how to begin that communication really requires us to take a step back so that we can consider the people we're telling that story to. So just to connect this to the topic that actually came up in the talk about how we do that communication, it's really fundamentally about, and just a quick aside about that talk. So in the Agile 2023 conference, we actually applied for a longer workshop, like 120 minutes, 160 minutes, one of the long time boxes. And they'd come back to us and said, why don't you do one of these 30-minute segments? So we really pared down a lot of the things that we wanted to say. And so to connect back to what really, what emerged was actually, it was actually probably a better talk than if we'd had a longer period of time to do it. We just, we had to cut everything until we could come back with just, Brian (08:36) Yeah. Hahaha. Mm. McCaul Baggett (08:58) the real good nuggets. And what stayed was this. In order to communicate effectively when you're going through any kind of change management process, first of all, having a change management process and a plan for how you're gonna manage that, that's your beginning. But to get a little bit more particular about how we communicate about that change, there is one technique which we agreed was probably the thing to focus on so that it would be most universally helpful. in any stage of a transformation that was going on. And that was creating a, finding a way to create a narrative, a personal narrative that could connect to the various people that you're trying to connect to, right? So to create a testimonial. And so we spent our time in that talk discussing how to really get a useful testimonial. And then once you've... got that how to do something useful with it. And we outline kind of five steps for how to think about this. Brian, tell me if I'm getting too deep or you kind of want to... Okay, cool. And I don't know that these are the only five steps. We try to make it easy to remember. The takeaways that we were trying to give were, you have to be first thoughtful about what it takes to make a compelling testimonial. So this is where I mean, you can't start with why. Brian (10:00) No, no, this is awesome. Go for it. McCaul Baggett (10:21) we're doing this, you have to start with who you're speaking to about why. Because the why shifts. If you're speaking to stakeholders, there's one why. And if you're speaking to the organization, to your employees, to the people that are doing the work, it's not that the why is different, but the way that you talk about it may be different. So once you know what it's going to take to make the testimonial, the next step would be to think about how you can work. how you can set yourself up ahead of time to maximize the potential to make an impact with your audience, to plan. how you're gonna get the story, the testimonial that's gonna resonate. Which is the story that I wanna tell? So fundamentally what we're doing here is we're assuming that, testimonial, this is only one way to communicate, but it's a fairly useful one universally. If you're going to try to get that testimonial, what are the questions that are gonna be useful to the who that you've identified ahead of time? What is the story you need to find to tell? Then step three is actually. having the conversation. So you've already done a lot of pre-work ahead of time before you even begin the process of the discussion. And then once you've started the discussion, once you've got it, using that testimonial, which is typically recorded kind of like this, grounding that in a way that doesn't sound overly positive and really connects with reality, and then using what you've got to spread that awareness as broadly as possible. So five steps. Know, think, get. ground and grow. I don't know if that's a useful mnemonic of any kind, but that's what we came up with. Brian (11:59) That's awesome. No, like I said, easy to remember. Just a few things to kind of keep in mind there. Yeah, I love the concept of telling it as a story, that we're not just, because that makes it much easier for me to see myself then fitting in there. Like we talked about earlier, right? If I have a fear of, oh my gosh, does this mean that I'm gonna lose my job? Does this mean that I'm gonna have to... McCaul Baggett (12:03) Yeah, just five steps. Brian (12:24) now do something that's very different from what I've been trained for or what I'm used to doing or what I wanna do as a career, telling it as a story can kind of allow me to see myself in the story. McCaul Baggett (12:37) You are exactly right. Not only does it allow you to do that, we as humans are wired to do that very thing. We do it all the time. In fact, when you're listening to a podcast like this, you'll often sort of have the sense that you're sitting at the table, thinking through, like you're literally exercising pathways in your brain as if you were participating in the conversation. And that direct involvement allows you to mitigate some of the inherent resistance that you. that you find, that amygdala hijack, that fight or flight response is not present because you're following along in a story, hopefully about a successful element of the transformation. So you really engage that piece right from the very beginning. Brian (13:20) Yeah, I love this and understand to the listeners as well, right? I mean, we're speaking at like a neuroscience level here and trying to understand that, you know, the preparation that needs to be made so that, uh, like McCaul is saying, there's not that amygdala hijack going on of just saying, uh, oh my gosh, I'm panicked. I can't get past this panic. Uh, you know, in my, that's going on in my head that has to be stripped away. That has to be. resolved so that now I can start to learn, now I can start to see and form, like you said, the new pathways. And that is, you know, physically what's going on. We're forming new connections in our brain to say, oh, I've never seen it this way, but let me try to make this connection and see it a different way. McCaul Baggett (14:10) Yeah, not only is it important to do that, we as humans, now I'm stepping a little far beyond my training, so I'll be careful. My understanding is that fight or flight response really lives in an entirely different system, in the limbic system of the brain, much earlier part of the brain. And in order to engage the neocortex at all, or in any significant way to create those Brian (14:21) Ha ha ha. McCaul Baggett (14:39) pathways to be able to see a perspective of the other than our own, we have to kind of dampen that limbic response, that fight or flight. Will I, won't I have a means to feed myself beyond this space? Am I safe before we can start to begin that conversation, to begin that connection with someone we want to connect to? Brian (14:59) Absolutely. And I think this applies not only, I mean, we started in kind of approaching this from sort of a high level top down, like you said earlier. But I think it applies even if you're a Scrum Master, or maybe you're part of a small group in the organization. Maybe you are in an organization that's not agile in any way, but you've gotten permission to have a pilot, to just have a pilot team. McCaul Baggett (15:08) Sure. Brian (15:28) and your desire is to grow this in the organization, or maybe they're doing it poorly and you wanted to have one pilot team that does it the right way so you can start to spread this out to other places. All this applies, I think, to you as well because you're gonna be communicating this and you're gonna encounter the same resistances, right? You're gonna have the same kind of skepticism. You're gonna have the same kind of possibility have someone have amygdala hijacks going on thinking, Oh my God, what's this guy doing? What's this woman doing? Why is she trying to make these big changes in the organization? Is she gonna try to change my job? Yeah, am I under threat? So while we started top down, I think it applies bottom up as well. They're all principles I think we have to think through before we even start to try to communicate with this. McCaul Baggett (16:05) Yeah, am I under threat? Oh, absolutely. I mean, any good scrum master is gonna be thinking and hopefully practicing their ability to deal with any tense conversation. And so that limbic engagement, that epinephrine and adrenaline start coursing through the brain. And you can see it in many people when you're looking at group dynamics, regardless of large or small group dynamics, but any group. that shutdown of the ability to really process new information and assimilate it, you have to start by working past the threat. You have to get people beyond that sort of defensive place before the conversation can even begin. Yeah, I agree. Brian (17:01) Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, in how we're talking about this, I kind of had this one scenario in mind I wanted to kind of run by you because I know I've encountered this before. I know, you know, I've encountered this in classes before. So I'm curious kind of how this communication approach would kind of adjust for this kind of individual. But what about the person who just sort of is crossing their arms McCaul Baggett (17:11) Sure, hit me. Brian (17:28) And they kind of take the approach of, ah, this is a fad. It's not so much as an active, hey, I'm gonna really counteract you and go against you to try to dispreview, but I'm just gonna, you know, I'm not budging. I'm gonna stay here, because I know this is a fad and it's gonna change eventually back to the way I wanna do things. So you do whatever you wanna do, but you know, I'm not gonna get on board with you because. I've seen lots of things come and go on this is just another McCaul Baggett (17:59) I think that takes a couple of forms. Certainly some of those, and particularly when I've been asked by an organization to come and do training, you get a lot more of those because, nope, they didn't raise their hand to come and join a public class or something. I think there's really two significant flavors of that engagement. One is, as you described, someone who's just sort of like passively waiting for this to sort of blow on by. And that's a lot more tricky than the one that's actively pushing back. By far, I prefer someone who's willing to stand up and say, this is not going to work here and here are the reasons why. Because to come into the space of someone who is not choosing that engagement is inherently threatening. So you've picked a very challenging person to get through to, um, because directly calling them out and being like, Hey, Brian, you've been really quiet. What do you think of what's going on? when they were not inclined to share that, sort of already starts to engage that, am I prepared to risk saying out loud what I think is gonna happen? And it also, it could inherit, it could just by the nature of asking them to speak out loud that they don't believe in what's going on around them, sets them apart from the rest of the group and could mean that makes them something of a target if they don't feel like their culture is a safe place to speak. So, That is your problem Often I have found that a testimonial based approach, one where you can tell someone's stories about someone in a similar position, not stories about why this is going to work from a leadership position, but a testimonial based communication campaign is one of the best ways to reach folks just like this. You don't need to directly address them. You don't need to confront them. It's fine. If you're not, if you're not buying this, that's okay. Why don't I tell you about where it's happened elsewhere? And frankly, that thing is one of the things that training in person used to be so great for, because you could stand away and kind of watch these people who weren't necessarily bought in, sit back and just study what was going on in front of them. It wasn't being forced on them. They could just sort of watch their teams and you'd do something silly like. Brian (19:58) Yeah. McCaul Baggett (20:17) play any number of the Agile games that are meant to demonstrate things like small batch processing or teaming, right? Team dynamics and that joy that human collaboration and competition can bring in a really small scale in a very short amount of time and like a magic trick you could be like was that fun? Was folding these paper airplanes and throwing them across the room fun? And they'd be like yeah it was fun it's paper airplanes whatever I'm not working and then you could take a step back and say okay Was it fun because you just love folding paper airplanes or was it fun because you were making connections with people that you don't get to do in your daily job? And just sort of, again, the story here is, look what's over there. Look what this says about the nature of communication. It's not testimonial based per se, but it is lighting that fire, that inspiration that I always loved about training. And it's not just in person, but it really... I do miss that about in-person training because you could really connect really well. Brian (21:19) Yeah, I mean, we're talking about communication in general and we can't escape the Agile Manifesto comment about it. It's best done in person face to face, right? So it doesn't mean you can't in another way, it just means it's best that way and it works easiest that way, right? Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, I just wanted to just, go ahead. McCaul Baggett (21:28) That's right. That's right. I'm sorry. Not to go too far off topic, though, but to that very point, we see this request of many executives later, the return to the office movement being another form of, is that the best way to communicate? Yeah, it is. Is it the only way to communicate? Should we be seeking that to the detriment of our work forces at scale? And there are many reasons that people are choosing to encourage their. employees to come back to the office. But I think part of that is because leadership is also far easier in person. So we're missing some opportunities for leadership to understand how to lead remote teams and may have caused that sort of same challenge. Anyway, another topic. Brian (22:23) No, no, I agree. And I think that part of that as well is just kind of the general whole. I've talked about this a couple of times in the podcast where we, we seem to be stuck in a cycle of trying to find out what is the way to do something versus what is the way for this team, for this organization to do something. There's lots of data out there that we can get, can inform us. Just like if I'm a product owner. There's lots of data that can inform me about the market, but ultimately I've got to make the call about what's right for us to do next. Same thing with the organization, same thing with the team. What's going to work in this instance? McCaul Baggett (23:03) Absolutely. It's probably one of the biggest challenges that I think, uh, when we see transformations, not even transformations, when we see an agile, um, enthusiast really go off track and good. I did it for sure when I was a new scrum master. Like this is how the scrum guide says we're supposed to do things and we're not doing these particular things. We need to do scrum the right way. that sort of the willingness to take a step back and say, well, there are a lot of better practices. Is there a best practice in our case that is true? Actually, the challenge is not, is there a better practice in all cases? And almost certainly not, but there may be a better practice in our case, even a best practice in our case, but you have to be willing to let go of the dogma of this is the way it's meant to be, and instead seeking, seeking to be informed by these, yes, science-based studied practices. It is better to be in person, but let's not fire all our remote employees. Let's, let's figure out another way or let's make teams that can figure out other ways to do it. Brian (24:11) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're in an interesting time, I think, as far as that's concerned, because like you said, it's the dogma, I think, of pragmatism and what's gonna work best in this scenario. Yeah, I struggle a lot in classes, even, when people will bring up certain topics, to ever say always, that this is always, it should always be this way. McCaul Baggett (24:22) Yes. Yes. Brian (24:36) Because I don't know, I frequently will say things like, my experience has been, what I have seen is this, but that's just my experience. And that's a limited set of experiences. You have to line that up against what you've experienced and what your organization is going through and say, hey, does this sound similar? Are we seeing those same things? Are we not seeing those same things? There are best practices. There are some things that we could say, yes, this... And a lot of situations will work best in this way, but not all. And that's where it takes experience. That's where it takes somebody who's been there before to know. McCaul Baggett (25:16) Well, yeah, and a lot of this grew up in a very particular environment, right? So Agile practices, many of the ones that we've adopted, grew up through software, and through software in North America. So one of the things that I've been passionate about, and one of the reasons that I've pursued the career that I have is because a lot of the Agile community looks like you and me, right? So if you take into account not only are these the, quote, Brian (25:29) Ha ha. McCaul Baggett (25:43) but it's for teams that tend to look like you and me, tend to live in North America, and tend to be working on software. And that's such a narrow area that we're foolish to assume that such a thing as best practices have been codified yet. Brian (25:58) Yeah, no, and please, for the listeners, don't get me wrong because if you listen to the show, you know I'm a geek for the data. And I love being able to have really hard scientific data that you can look at and say, hey, studies show that this is how you do this, but you gotta be cautious about asking, was that a rigorous scientific actual study or was this just an internet sampling? McCaul Baggett (26:13) Yes. Brian (26:26) That's not a scientific study. That's just kind of gathering people together and saying, hey, if this group of people who choose to respond to this, what do they think about something versus something else? But you're absolutely right. You have to understand the basis of where this comes from. And the basis of where we get a lot of our stuff is people who look like you and me, who have been working in the software industry for kind of the time we've been working in the software industry. So things have changed. McCaul Baggett (26:50) Yeah. Brian (26:53) cultures change, cultures bring different dynamics into things. And what works for my team of five, six developers based here in Dallas, Texas, is going to be very different from my team that I have five people in India and three people here, or even all the team is in India, or all the team is in Malaysia, or all the team is in Saudi Arabia or Ireland. I've worked with teams all over Israel. McCaul Baggett (27:09) Yes. Brian (27:23) You work with teams in different cultures and you have to understand what the playbook I used for that last team ain't gonna work for this next one because they're different people. McCaul Baggett (27:32) I heard the term coined radical pragmatism. It was, JJ Sutherland said it. And it was, it is precisely what we should be shooting for. Radical pragmatism informed by the best data, informed by the best science, and then immediately thrown away when it's not applicable to the situation we're in. Yes, these are the ladder, the rungs, the steps to head in the direction we need to be headed, probably, but let's evaluate them for ourselves and reevaluate. Brian (28:02) Yeah, if you're gonna go buy a car, you're gonna do your research, you're gonna figure out what gets the best gas mileage, blah, right, all this stuff. But then you're gonna get on the line, you're gonna test drive and go, I just like the way this feels. Ha, ha, ha. McCaul Baggett (28:12) That's right, test drive the car, yes, for sure. Brian (28:16) Awesome. Well, this has been a great conversation. I really have enjoyed having you on, McCaul. And yeah, thank you for kind of sharing kind of some of the wisdom in there from the talk. I know we, you know, the talk was not long and we have not long to kind of dissect stuff here in our podcast, but I appreciate you making time to share with us. McCaul Baggett (28:36) Absolutely, Brian, this is a pleasure. And if you ever need somebody to shoot the breeze with again, give me a call. Brian (28:42) I will take you up on that. McCaul Baggett (28:43) Thanks.

Join Brian for the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he dives into the future of Agile with fan favorites Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. Listen in as they explore the evolving role of AI, the continuous need for leadership innovation, and the Agile community's journey towards greater accountability and effectiveness. Overview In the 100th episode, our expert panel celebrates by examining the latest trends and enduring challenges in the Agile industry. They discuss the critical need for organizations to adapt and innovate, particularly through leadership and management strategies that foster high-performing teams. This episode is a deep dive into how embracing change and technological advancement can propel the Agile industry forward, ensuring that organizations not only survive but thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Join Brian in a special celebration of the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, featuring a look forward to future innovations in Agile! [1:43] - Brian kicks off the landmark 100th episode with a forward-looking panel on Agile and Scrum's future, featuring experts Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. [4:01] - Listen in as Brian asks the panel to share their insights on emerging trends within Agile and Scrum, setting the stage for a thought-provoking conversation. [4:15] - Lance highlights key trends including solutions for scaling challenges, the integration of AI in Scrum, and innovations in leadership and management. [6:54] - Scott emphasizes the enduring impact of Agile and Scrum in driving organizational enhancements. [11:36] - Lance underscores the critical need for leadership and management to adopt innovative approaches and acknowledge generational changes to effectively engage and support their teams. [13:30] - Addressing the provocative statement that 'Agile is dead,' Brian explores its implications on the real-world demand for Agile compared to its perceived necessity. [14:50] - Brian, along with Scott and Lance, urges the Agile community to recognize its shortcomings and learning experiences, which they believe may be contributing to negative perceptions of Agile, and how the community could approach it differently. [24:10] - Brian encourages you to try out Goat Bot, Mountain Goat software’s Scrum & Agile AI tool. This free tool is trained to handle all your Agile and Scrum queries—start asking your questions today! [25:58] - The panel explores the impact of AI on enhancing agility in organizational practices in estimating, development, and so much more. [32:20] - Brian stresses the importance of using AI as a tool to support, not supplant, discussing ways it can improve rather than replace human efforts. [43:23] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott and Lance for joining him on the 100th episode of the show. [43:44] - Brian thanks you, the listeners, for your support and shares his excitement for the future of the show, inviting you to send us your feedback or share your great ideas for episodes of the show. Just send us an email. [44:57] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. [45:16] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, or CSPO, or Better User Stories Course. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scott Dunn Lance Dacy Goat Bot Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Agile Mentors, welcome. This is our 100th episode. Can you believe it? We've been doing this for 100 episodes now. So first, before we even get into today's episode, I just wanna say huge, huge thank you to you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for giving us feedback. Thank you for giving us suggestions. We would not have made it to 100 without you, so. Huge thanks to you. And to celebrate, we're trying to do something different here for the 100th and not just let it go by and not mark this occasion. So what I wanted to do was to have some of our regulars, our favorites on together so that we could really kind of look ahead. So let me introduce our panel for today. First of all, I've got Mr. Scott done with us. So Scott, welcome. Scott Dunn (01:00) Thank you, Brian. Glad to be here. This is awesome. Congratulations. That's so cool. Brian (01:04) That, thank you, thank you, thank you very much. And then another favorite that we have on quite frequently is Lance Dacey is with us as well. Lance Dacy (01:13) Hey Brian, congratulations once again. I remember us just talking about this when you were starting out with podcasts and you look at 100. You do this every week, right? Is it a, has it been a hundred weeks? Wow. Brian (01:22) Yeah. Yeah, we do this every week. We missed a couple. Our listeners probably know there's been a couple of times in there we've taken some small breaks around holidays and other things. But yeah, this is going on just about every week since then. Lance Dacy (01:38) Well, congratulations. That's amazing. Brian (01:40) Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I'm amazed and as I said, very, very grateful. And it really hit home to me when I went to my first conference after doing this and people would come up and say, hey, I listen. That was really a cool moment. And I always tell people, hey, I'm speaking to other conferences, come and say hi. Come and say hi to me this year. So as I said, I wanted to have a panel so that we could talk about, we've been... Scott Dunn (01:40) Amazing. Brian (02:10) doing this for 100 episodes and lots has changed, lots have changed over the past year and a half, almost two years now that we've been doing this. We kicked off on, I think it was May 18th, 2022. So we're coming up on two years of doing this. And my thought was, what's gonna happen over the next 100 episodes? Like, where are we gonna be in the next two years? Where are we gonna be in the next five years? What kind of things are changing? What are we going to think about stuff over that time period? So I wanted to have a panel to kind of comment and discuss this with us and Where I wanted to start is maybe not where I think most people are going to think I'm going to go But I want to start with kind of the agile industry kind of the way things are going now for Coaches consultants scrum masters product owners So I'm gonna throw this as an open question and whichever of you wants to go first, go first. But what do you think we're seeing right now? What kind of trends are you seeing in that realm? And where do you think it's gonna, where do you think it's going? Scott Dunn (03:26) I nominate Lance to go first. Lance Dacy (03:28) Okay, here, obviously they're thinking about Scott. It looks like he's got something to say. Okay, well, that's a tough question because I think it still depends on the industry and the organization. It's all made up of people still. So there's still a lot of variables, I think, that affect the way that we do our jobs as transition coaches or business agility coaches or agile coaches, whatever you wanna call us. I think... Brian (03:29) Hahaha Lance Dacy (03:59) You know, I think there's still plenty of organizations out there that are struggling to bring their people together to deliver great products. And it's not because they don't want to, it's just lacking the skills and the frameworks and things to do that. So I still think that there's some organizations out there that benefit from saying, hey, let's just start from what we know and start doing this and then adapt to it as it changes. But I think a lot of times organizations, I think scaling is one of those big. problem child out there that people have kind of learned how to do this with smaller teams and smaller parts of the organization, but getting the whole organization to collaborate together. And of course, they look to another framework for that. And I'm kind of framework agnostic, especially when it comes to scaling, because I think at the end of the day, if you can't do it well in the small environment, it's going to be very difficult to do it well in the large environment. So the best thing you can do is kind of analyze your own situation. with like value stream mappings and cross-functional teams and things like that, and try to make sure that you're organizing yourselves and preventing waste as much as possible, I think is one of the big things. But I've also seen a kind of an uptick in, of course, these practices in agile being distributed over non-software domains. We've seen that for a long time, that's not necessarily a new thing, but I think it's gravitating more. to that. But I think the biggest one is really what we're talking about today is how is this AI stuff or what we have been talking about, how is that affecting this? And I think it's here quicker than we really think, or already here. And so trying to figure out how to handle, you know, data driven decision making based on that and, you know, using these tools to integrate. And then I think the last one that I would talk about is leadership and management. I think There's a specific type of environment and culture required for these people to thrive and collaborate and leadership and management has not seen a lot of innovation in the last 150 years. So, I find myself spending a lot of time coaching executives and mid-level managers on how to foster an environment that we can know how we practice psychological safety, empowering people and making it a great place to work, especially in this remote distributed environment. So I don't know if it's... All that's fairly new, but I think it's more prevalent than it was in the past. So I don't know, Scott, go ahead. Scott Dunn (06:28) No, that's good stuff. And I've only got 35 points I want to walk through. So one, I think we had all agreed that this idea of agile seems to be the common experience we're seeing as we're still coaching out there in organizations. They think that they've already done that. That's in the past. What's next? Or they settled in like, we're just hybrid. And it's not a. So help us move forward. It's like, no, we weren't done that. Here's this other thing. But the other things they're needing. And I like it, Lance. You kind of mentioned a couple of other words that people use, like organizational improvement, organizational chiasm, these ideas, like, hey, we're trying to get better. And I almost rather use those words because if I use a word they think they know, then we've kind of lost the fact that, you know, we're there. It strikes me, it's a little bit like marketing. They're just like, nope, marketing's done. And now we're doing this. And like, no, marketing's always learning, moving forward, growing. And I think we're gonna see this idea they realize, like, oh. Agile wasn't like a destination we check the boxes now they're on Scrum team. So that's one thing we're continuing to see. And the reason I'm saying that is the problems are still the same problems. We're talking earlier about capacity management, visibility, clear, you know, can execs see where we are in these larger initiatives? And the answer is like, no, they're still not doing those well. That speaks to whole org. And two quick stories on that is one, we're working with a company that decided like, yes, we're going to take this whole org approach. Lance Dacy (07:27) Yeah. Scott Dunn (07:45) And once they, within a few months, they'd gone from cycle time of 100 days down to 10. They had tripled their productivity. They went from one release every two weeks to seven in a day, right? But that's because the whole org is represented as they're rolling out, actually holistically. Let's contract that with a company we're just talking to this week. I was trying to describe getting a group together, it's representatives across other departments who have people who have authority, who have influence, finances, et cetera. they could not grasp the idea that there'd be a team working on improvement items across the org. It took several explanations, like I'm not talking at the team level. I'm talking about the team that's working across the org level. And what part of this comes back to is I think of the idea of I'm a manager. This is my own like awakening recently. If I'm a manager, let's say I'm the software engineering manager, I'm the director, my concern, this is my mistake earlier, my concern is not, are we doing ads all right? My concern is, is my boss getting what they want? If my boss wants clear reporting on where we're at the features, I don't care if it's Agile, waterfall hybrid doesn't matter. Did you show me a nice pretty report that gives them what they need? That's what I, that's what I do not wanna be called into her office on Friday about, right? So I keep mistaken, like they wanna do Agile, right? No, they wanna check the box and what they're accountable for and meet those expectations. And I know the higher up the or we go, the less they probably understand about Agile. At least that's the surveys that I'm running is like a... a 20, 30, 50% gap between what these people say their managers think they understand about Agile and what the people actually do in the work know that they understand Agile or not, which is always a large gap. A good example of that is remote. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse when it's down or whatever the saying is, but we've talked about remote a lot, but here's what we're seeing is, I think the basis of a lot of this return to office is simply, I don't know my people are working or not, I just need to see them. Brian (09:30) Hahaha. Scott Dunn (09:41) I can't tell, and I can't see them, I can't tell, and I get nervous, which really means I don't really have an understanding of fundamental aspects of how work is done using transparency, inspect and adapt, all that, right? And because I can't really, I don't really have mastery over that, I'm gonna need you in the office at least three times a week. Because I don't, I'm not really watching the work anyways, but at least I know you're showing up, and I'm accountable to make sure people are busy and working. That's, you know, I draw it down to its most rudimentary level. To me, it's a reflection of the capability of management. You mentioned that, Lance, about leadership. I think we're starting to see Lance Dacy (09:41) Right. Brian (09:52) Yeah. Scott Dunn (10:11) What we probably will see is this real cutting line of those who get it and trust their people and they work. And we've seen, you know, 10X, 100X on, on experts really let loose to do their best work and those who are simply like, you know, managed in that traditional sense and all the drawbacks and your loss of talent, all that. I think the companies will have to pay the price eventually. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go ad drug because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, um, I could be wrong. Brian (10:35) Yep. Scott Dunn (10:38) maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board, but there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're gonna see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? Do you get this or not? So those are some of the trends I see. I still see a lot of people still in the very fundamentals because they think these things are already understood and known and we're moving on to something next. There is no next. I think the pace of change out there is if you're not working this way as an organization, you're losing ground already. Like... while they're listening to the podcast. Lance Dacy (11:08) It's like the remote, you know, what you were just saying is like the remote is the automated test for your operating system at work is like, if it works like that, then we're likely doing some really good things. But you know, I remember, um, I'm going to show my age here though, but prior to my technology career, I worked at FedEx and I was in leadership and management, managing their third largest hub here in Fort Worth, Texas, uh, the air hub, you know, and FedEx did a great job teaching leadership and management and all that kind of stuff. Brian (11:08) Yeah. Scott Dunn (11:14) Thank you. Lance Dacy (11:36) And I remember them focusing on the idea that you cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that, Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about. you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. They work radically different. You know, I'm going to categorize money as a gen X person. And I'm going to say we were taught to be very individualistic, climb the corporate ladder, you know, keep your pain to yourself, just grin and bear it, fight through it, do the best you can and be autonomous and don't rely on a lot of people. And, you know, don't trust anybody. You know, the latchkey kids, we just were independent. We learned how to do it all. And that's not necessarily bad. We needed to be managed a different way than these people now. I, and I've got four kids, so I see it. It's like, they're not going to tolerate this stuff. So you hit it on the head with that leadership. I mean, coverage, a broad spectrum, but, um, Mike gave a talk in Oh nine. I'll never forget this. When I first went to the scrum gathering in Orlando and Oh nine, and he was on a panel and he said it really succinctly. He said, I hope we don't call it agile or scrum anymore. It's just the way that we work. Brian (12:36) Yeah. Lance Dacy (12:54) And he was referencing object oriented programming. You know, he said, we don't call it object oriented programming anymore, it's just programming, you know, object one. And so it's like, yeah, we're not going to, let's not have this debate. We want to build the highest business value things as early as possible with the least amount of costs who can argue that that's not the right way to run an organization. So let's not debate it. Let's not use the buzzwords. Let's just do it. Brian (13:01) Right. Scott Dunn (13:12) Yes. Brian (13:18) Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, kind of back to what Scott said, too, there is a marketing issue here, right? There is this kind of idea of people are so saturated with the terms that they've experienced them and they feel like, hey, I know that I know what that is, I don't need to be I don't need to learn any more about that. And now I'm just kind of moving forward when they don't really. And that's what drives all the people out there that are saying Agile is dead and all the Agile is dead speakers and all that stuff. It's not dead. And if you listen to them, they don't say it's dead. They just say, people don't understand what it is. And so they're doing it wrong. I think there's kind of this interesting dynamic going on. Right, because on one hand, I think we're at a time when Scott Dunn (13:54) Mm-hmm. Brian (14:03) businesses could benefit the most from doing things like Agile because they're gonna get the most with less by doing these kinds of approaches. However, at the same time, we're hearing stories of entire Agile departments being let go in different organizations. And we're seeing people who struggle after coming through classes and stuff finding work as a scrum master, even though there's a demand. There's high demand still for these kinds of things. So there's sort of this dichotomy that's going on of, I think there's a slump going on in the agile demand when the need for it is high. And maybe that's a marketing, right. Maybe that's a marketing thing that we haven't done a good job, but I wanna propose one other thing here and I wanna get your guys take on this. Lance Dacy (14:51) than ever. Brian (15:02) The people who say Agile is dead and they say that, we shouldn't be doing this because we should call it something else. Because no one understands what it is anymore. And that's why they say it's dead. I have generally thought of those, and I think many of us sometimes fault the leadership a little bit in this to say, they didn't invest enough to understand it. They didn't really support it, right? Kind of that mentality. But I think that as an Agile community, that we need to own up. Like, I think we just need to step forward and say, you know what, we have not always done it right. And there's been plenty, you know, I talked about this in the Scrum Master class. There's plenty of Scrum Masters out there who think that the job of being a Scrum Master is to schedule meetings. And that is it. And... Scott Dunn (15:55) Oh. Brian (15:58) You know, those people, you can understand why a company would say, I don't need that person. I don't need a person to do that. And then all of a sudden they're letting go all of their Scrum Masters because they think that's what a Scrum Master is. So I think we have to own up a little bit to say, we're partly responsible for this, right? We're partly responsible for the bad impression that Agile has and we just gotta own it and say, yes, that's true, but that's because we've made mistakes as well and we're learning. Lance Dacy (16:17) Thank you. Brian (16:28) And now we know better, right? Now we know what we're supposed to do. But the pretense that we maybe came into it with, saying, hey, we know everything and we know how to do this stuff, was what caused the downfall, I think. What do you think? Scott Dunn (16:32) Hmm. Lance Dacy (16:44) It's like the overlay though of saying here, here's how you do it, right? I think what we got wrong or not necessarily wrong, just we didn't know any better at the time is, I've worked with 20 companies and this way work, let's try it. And then if it doesn't work, we'll adapt it. Cause I think it's always been about that. But you know, just like any approach, you know, the effectiveness of that approach depends a lot on how it's implemented, supported, adapted, taught. And I feel like what we should just start focusing on, you know, it's hard to put this in one term, Maybe it's just like helping and facilitating the creation of high performing teams. Like that's an unarguable thing that you would want to have. What's happening is the organizations either whether they misunderstand the role or have a bad experience in the past with it because you can't say their experience is invalid, right? Everybody has their different experience and opinion and what they went through. And I acknowledge that. But if you think of any professional sports teams, what's happening in the organizations in this world? Brian (17:20) Yeah. Lance Dacy (17:43) is they're getting rid of the coach of the team. And what we have to do is start recognizing what does the coach really do is trying to make the team high performing. You know, in professional sports, it's to score points and win the game, right? Well, kind of trying to do the same thing here, you would never get rid of the coaching position saying, well, all they do is watch film and tell the team what they're doing wrong. No, I mean, Andy Reid, you know, the Kansas City Chiefs, they won the Super Bowl, arguably the best football team in the world, if that's what you're using as a bar. And... Scott Dunn (17:46) Thank you. Brian (17:55) No. Scott Dunn (18:03) Thank you. Lance Dacy (18:12) And so they've arrived, they're the best. Do we get rid of Andy Reid? No, they need him even more because they get complacent and they get this idea that we don't need to change anything. And I see plenty of teams like that. It's like, no, the coach has one of the hardest jobs in the world is to tell the best performing team in the world they can get better. And the organization sometimes is the wet blanket and suffocating the environment for which that team can perform. Scott Dunn (18:16) Thank you. Lance Dacy (18:37) And I feel like, you know, instead of whether you want to call it a scrum master and agile codes or whatever, it's almost hard to use those terms. Some of these people anymore, because they'll just sit there and argue with you about it, but let's just say I'm trying to coach a high performing team and how can you argue with that, you know? Brian (18:50) Yeah. Yeah, I don't think you can. Scott, what do you think? Scott Dunn (18:53) If I was to ask you, well, if I was to ask both of you, do traditional management, whoever's making hiring decisions, do they know what an agile coach is and what's in telling them that they're doing well or not? And I would argue the most don't. And I think that's why we see a lot of people, I mean, in the end, people follow the money. I don't call people for work and their own self-interest. So if I can just update my LinkedIn profile and change it to agile coach. and whoever interviews me can't tell a difference. And that means I get a salary bump and of course, or let's just tell it like it is. And I think your listeners, I know you to be good with this. If I can just take a two day class and I'm gonna get a 25% salary increase, whether or not I get it or not, let's not even go there. Like I passed the test, I've got the certification. And unfortunately, I think that's more the dynamics of any given market is like, oh, it jumps to the solution, right? I just, you know. hire these scrum masters and I've done the agile thing. And even though any of us would say like, that's much bigger than that, this agile coaching involved is much more than the two day class that you need, et cetera. But think about that. I'd look at the people that I've trained, which, you know, is thousands. How many companies actually came back and said, we need help as an agile coach? 20, 22 dozen, right? That we actually went in and did real transformation work. So that's them not asking. That's them like, no, we got it. I think that simplicity of understanding Do I take a solution or do I go through a mindset change? Well, taking the solutions is going to be easier. So I'm going to jump to that rather than like reflect, like, I think we need to change. Change is hard, we agree. So back to the point of like, are we to blame? I see some of that market dynamics, but we do that with diets. We do that with the career. Also Greg, we wouldn't just grab something easier than actually go through the change. So I do agree with you, but I think it's a good point. How we try to re-message that when the world already thinks I understand it. I think we're watching this happen. When I look at companies in that space, Brian (20:30) Yep. Scott Dunn (20:42) They are using different terms and phrases. I think that moves us away from, maybe that's an aspect of like, where to blame. The other interesting thing, Lance, you mentioned about the coach and we don't fire the coach. And I think that's the best example I go to is, look, I'm a business owner of a professional sports team. I'm watching the dollars and I don't wanna have to pay Andy Reid millions, but I know it gets results. And I don't wanna coach for the offensive line. I don't wanna coach for defensive, but the results are clear whether that works or not. Brian (21:03) Yeah. Scott Dunn (21:08) The other thing that's interesting is you watch some of these coaches, like when it changed in college football with name engine, name engine and likeness in terms of attracting students for different reasons. Like I can make money during college. I don't have to hope I make the pros. And how that changed the game significantly to where some coaches like, forget it. I don't want to play this game where they're now empowered to make their own decisions on where they want to go and not just sit on the bench. If I want to sit on the bench, the transfer portal. So you're watching dynamics play out on what does that mean to bring that change in? I do think in the end, there's probably a simple split on, there's an organization that needs to continuously improve and look for ways to do that. Not as one-off projects of, hey, let's do an improvement project here. But as a feeder backlog, but simply there's always ways to improve and stuff's always coming in and we're always working that as a layer of the way the organization runs. When I see a chief agility officer, some of these other roles, I think they get it. I think manufacturing systems get that with like lean thinking and like, That's just what we do. We're always looking for that. I don't think software engineering. And this organization get it. And to be honest, my friends, you can tell me if I'm off. I don't know if they got sold that truth of this is always going. It is not put all your engineers on the teams, hire a scrum master, change someone's title of product owner and you're good, right? But I think that's what they kind of thought it was. And then they're done, but that's a team level. It's not organization level and it just sits there. So I guess there is someone with the blame because maybe that's what they were taught and not the bigger picture as well. Brian (22:25) Yeah. Yeah. Scott Dunn (22:35) Perhaps. Lance Dacy (22:36) The rebranding is interesting the way you said that. I don't, you know, let's call it something other than Agilent or Scrum, whatever you were talking about. And that's what organizations do when things are broken, is they reorg. We're gonna just change the name of it. It's like following a diet plan and going, well, I don't like that it doesn't let me have sugar, so I'm just gonna call it something different. The constraint. Brian (22:48) Hmm. Yep, you're right. Scott Dunn (22:50) Yes, yes Lance Dacy (23:02) You know, the constraint is there to make you better. And I think that's what a lot of people don't get about, let's say the Scrum framework has a lot of constraints built in not to make it harder to do your work. And I will argue it's harder. Like I tell people all the time, this is a harder way to work. It's not an easier way because it requires all of us to come together. But you just said it so eloquently, Scott, I just thought about that, that they just, who cares what we call it. Brian (23:03) Yeah. Scott Dunn (23:16) Yes, for sure. Lance Dacy (23:26) the organization and the leadership is stuck by saying that at their level, all they gotta do is call it something different and now it's solved. All I gotta do is change the org chart on a spreadsheet. And I can't tell you how many organizations I work with where I'll get a note and say, well, we're going through a reorg right now, so we gotta hold off on this training or do this or do that. It's like, well, you just went through one, I've worked with companies that have been their coach for a very long time. It's like, how many of these are we gonna go through? What's the purpose? When are we going to start realizing that it's not who reports to who, it's who's doing the work and what's the environment and culture we've created for them. And I feel like leadership and management, I don't even care if it's software. Like Scott, you're saying software, we really don't get it. I'm not sure any company really, there's a few out there that I would say their leadership and management's working really well, but the operating system for the culture is broken. And, you know, we know that for a long time as agile coaches, but it's like, there's some benefits to be gained even while that's happening. Brian (23:54) Yeah. Lance Dacy (24:24) that we can get some efficiencies going here and they're still better off. But we've hit that next level, the problems are more complex now. People and it's leadership and it's hard to change those because they've been doing it for 150 years this way. You know? Scott Dunn (24:34) Yes. Brian (24:34) Yeah. Scott Dunn (24:40) Yes. Yeah. Brian (24:41) Yeah. Well, we can't leave the episode without talking about AI, at least a little bit, because I know you brought that up already. But yeah, we definitely need to think about AI in the future. And yeah, yeah. Because I know we talked about that a little bit when we were meeting here before we started to record. But just curious. Scott Dunn (24:46) Hahaha! Lance Dacy (24:52) leaders and managers. Scott Dunn (24:54) Yes. Brian (25:06) Where do you think that whole thing is going? What I should say is, how do you think it's going to affect agility? That's the big question. Lance Dacy (25:17) You want me to go again first, Scott, or is he going to flip flop? Scott Dunn (25:20) No, no, we're not flip-flopping. It's you, man. You got it. I'm not changing. Brian (25:23) Hahaha Lance Dacy (25:23) Okay. He has some reason to do this. You know, I feel like I'm walking into a trap here. Um, the way he's going to trap me. Um, well, and you know, we were kind of talking before we even, you know, started the podcast, but I was mentioning, you know, project management wise, you know, that I believe AI can bring a lot to just helping teams become more efficient and productive just at a superficial level by simply Scott Dunn (25:28) With pretty... Brian (25:29) No, that's a wrong answer, Lance. Lance Dacy (25:50) if we're talking about Scrum, let's say, because a lot of us practice Scrum and we teach it, you think about a sprint planning exercise and how often it's very difficult to just simply explain how to come up with your capacity for the next two weeks, and based on your skillset and the work needing to be done, are we sure and confident that the work we've committed in this next one, two, three, or four week period that we can actually get it done? as a cross-functional team within the constraint of getting something usable to the end user. I think a lot of people forget that as well. So I feel like automating things like sprint planning where you can feed in a profile of all of your different skill sets and their capacity. We no longer languish over this big spreadsheet that I used to use back 10, 12 years ago. There's a lot of better ways to do it nowadays, but I think eventually you just say, based on this team and what they've given me, here's how much work we can do. feed in the work and say here's the best sequence of the work. You know, the harder part is fitting, you know, utilization is not really a topic I want to get into because I think it's always misunderstood. But once you account for all of the slack time that you need to, you want to be as utilized as possible. I think using AI to help figure out what's the best path. Like I do an exercise in my class where I give them 10 backlog items and based on the different skills, capacity, and things that need to be done, what's the best fit? Right, so in data science, we talk about fitting the model. Why not use AI to help us be the best sequencing of the work with the highest value and the best way to use our capacity? So automatic task assignment, just like we do with calendars now, where people can feed in the work they need to do and it'll create the best calendar fit to maximize your workload. Automated code is coming, you know, we're already here. You know, automated. backlog creation, chat bots, AI driven testing. I think all of that is, if not here already around the corner, that's gonna affect, hopefully in a good way, the way that teams do that. Now, we can have a whole nother topic of how that affects product and marketing, because I think the biggest issue we have is getting closer to the user, and understanding and having empathy for them, because too often we get caught up in our own world that we're just... Brian (28:03) Yep. Lance Dacy (28:10) languishing through trying to get the work out. Well, why are we doing the work is the real reason and what's the best way we can get that work to the user that solves their problem. So I'll pause there. There's a hundred things I could go in. I had 35 bullet points. I have about 110, because I love this stuff, AI and data science and all that stuff. But Scott, I'd like to hear you had some good ideas in our pre-talk as well. Scott Dunn (28:14) Thank you. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you inviting me out to the Lance Dacey podcast. I just want to say thank you for that. Right when he drank his water too. Brian (28:37) Hahaha! Weird. Lance Dacy (28:44) Right. I can't respond. Let me take a scotch now that I can respond. Brian (28:46) Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:49) Yeah, he just needs to take a drink. He's ready to go. I know I love it. I love all the ideas in the Thoughtsland. So on my particular view, when we look at the companies we're helping, so we're Atlassian partners, so I'm watching what they're doing. And I mentioned about the fact that it can automatically do like acceptance criteria, you can ask. Anything about, take all the, what we used to call it, the tribal knowledge. It's gonna do that for you. I don't need to track down who's Lucy whomever. I'm just gonna ask it and it knows. I can say, give me a spreadsheet of the people involved with this. What's the background of this project? Any of that tribal knowledge is like, it's already there now. All that data sitting in Confluence, and Jira, et cetera, ability to create tickets. I'm not going and manually creating tickets anymore. I just say, create a ticket for this thing. So all those add up to lots of saving, time savings, all the manual stuff, anything that you just already know. And everyone hates making the tickets and doing so. it's going to take care of that stuff for you automatically. On the dev and engineering side, I'm seeing a lot around what seems to be promising, impossible, certainly code reviews, like there's a template of things that you know you're checking for in code reviews, readiness to go to production. Can it create these models and things? I think we'll wait to see. We're talking about the case tools, but I believe it will because it's not limitless on when we're creating basic applications. If you take your simplest thing like hello world, you know. or a basic screen that's only got five things or a login screen, there's only so many permutations what's gonna happen with that. And it can learn those things and do those things. Software engineering is your biggest cost for software companies, these engineers, and they're hard to find, and you got time zone issues and all these other things. Everyone's looking for ways to reduce cost right now. We've got issues of just getting the talent and the source, and you got parts of these engineers' work that they do not wanna be doing anyways. So I think you're gonna see a lot of those things put pressure on figuring that stuff out. But between the computing power that we're talking about, how much can be handled by those graphics chips and how much information is out there, I think you're gonna see real wins of measurable significance that's gonna be proven out and certainly driven by the business leaders themselves trying to find where can we reduce the cost with the promise of some of these things. But those are some that I've already seen. We're definitely watching, as I mentioned, Brian (30:43) Yeah. Scott Dunn (31:12) on the Scrum developer side, just saying like, what's happening out there? And just take a look and see what we can do. But you're gonna start finding the simpler solutions that are gonna be chipped away at first. I think about the self-driving cars. I remember thinking there's no way the car can handle all these, you know, what felt like limitless situations. It really isn't. There's only so many things happening on the roads and they have slowly learned to do that. I think it's gonna be the same on the engineering side as well. Brian (31:31) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with both of you. I kind of think that I've taken a stance on it, like in the past, I just see it as a tool. It's a more advanced tool and it can do some things better than we can right now. There's some things that does really well and there's some things that right now it's not very good at. And I think it's important to try to understand that, right? I'm not gonna, you know. I think I've come to a place where I would never say, I don't think it could do X, Y, Z, because I think that eventually it can. I think that there's gonna be things it can do. And it's just a matter of time before it can do pretty much anything that we could be doing right now. Even right now, one of the things it's really, really bad at is having ideas. It doesn't really... Scott Dunn (32:10) Right. Brian (32:30) brainstorm or it can give you ways of, it can give you some little tidbits and things that you can build upon. But having used it to help try to write a blog post or anything like that, well, here's an experiment, right? Go to any, your favorite AI and ask it for 10 business ideas based on whatever, just, Uh... Lance Dacy (33:01) Of course it's not going to be good at that. Brian (33:03) Well, no, it'll give you, it'll give you 10. Scott Dunn (33:03) There's a creativity problem right there. We have a problem with creativity. I see it. Lance Dacy (33:07) I'm just kidding, bro. Brian (33:08) Yeah, it'll give you 10, but then go back and ask it and do a new chat, ask it again. Do a new chat, ask it a third time. Compare the answers you got across all three. And what you'll see is it's a lot of reused stuff, right? And the reason that it's recycling it, the reason it's reusing it is because this is a large language model. This is pulling from what it's been trained on, right? It doesn't invent a new thing itself. Lance Dacy (33:33) Mm-hmm. Create new you Brian (33:38) Right, now again, I'm not saying that it can't do that in the future, but what we have today is not a creative source in that way. It has to have the training data, even image, kind of AI image generators, that's built on what it's trained on. So you can't train it to a point to say, give me a picture of something that you haven't been trained on, right? weird picture that you have nothing in your database to go back to and use as a reference. It can't do that because it can't imagine, right? Yeah. Scott Dunn (34:18) Yes, that's the key. Lance Dacy (34:22) I was working with a company, they do ads, helping people come up with ads. So a lot of marketing spend money out there, right? You can tell it what kind of market you want to go into, what your competitors are doing, and very quickly feed it some images, feed it a few websites, and it'll give you 100 different ads with the words and everything you want to take on it, and already give it a conversion score. Like... Brian (34:44) Yeah. Lance Dacy (34:45) this ad should get this amount. And it was amazing to me, because I kind of struggle with that anyway, as a business owner, creatively coming up with content and ads and things like that. Like we were talking about earlier, I don't think on this podcast, but like being a co-pilot, having the AI stuff be a co-pilot where we kind of use it as a tool. I think eventually it'll be vice versa, ironically, where we'll be the co-pilots. I think... You like personalized user experience, creativity type things like, you know, how we do AB testing and stuff. Why not let AI do a lot of that user research and spin up the code very easily and figure out click patterns and things like that. Like I could say, I need nine different designs for this one screen. I mean, that used to take weeks, if not months for a designer to sit and attend, I'm not trying to bash their field. I love working with them. And. They're very creative people, but I feel like that's going to be the next step with this AI is, hey, give me nine options. And then that designer spends less time creatively. They get better ideas sometimes. Maybe some of them don't like that. I don't know. I'm not a creative person like that. But I can see that helping me in saying, hey, I don't have to hire these nine marketing people or five marketing people. I can just say, hey, let's look at those things. So I think that user, that creativity, Brian, is what you were hitting on imagining things. Brian (36:02) Yeah. Lance Dacy (36:03) Yeah, give it a lot of data can give you options and then you can take that and come up with the ideas as a human, but yeah, eventually that'll all be taken over too, I think it's all taken over the world. T1000, here we come. Brian (36:15) I think you've got to have one of the concepts that's out there is referring to these as agents and having multiple agents that will carry out a different task for you. And I really think that's when I think about the future of this kind of stuff and how this would affect a typical software development team, that's what I see. We have hierarchies in our organizations that exist. And those are essentially different layers of agents, right? Lance Dacy (36:23) Yeah. Brian (36:43) And I think that that's what we're going to see with software development teams and other things is we'll have a deployed network of agents and these, these AI agents will speak to each other and they'll, they'll refine what each other do. Uh, right. And it makes it easier for us, but again, we've got to have the idea to generate it, to start it, right? It just, it can't do that on its own right now. Lance Dacy (36:57) make it easier for us. Scott Dunn (37:03) Cheers. There's definitely a few things where I've just been popping in, where I had to do some legal docs and I just went there and had it write them. They were great. Just fill in the blanks. I was waiting to get content back from someone about a speaker, maybe somebody to go about Mark Kilby on remote and waiting and waiting. I'm like, dog gone. I just wouldn't ask, you know, chat GPT tell me about Mark Kilby, what he does and grab that. And it did a great job. Put that out there. I didn't need, I didn't need someone else to do it. I didn't need to wait for that. Brian (37:31) Yeah. Scott Dunn (37:34) And I don't even look for creative art anymore. I simply say, give me this art. I do it in Creative Cloud. Give me that, and then you know, good enough's good enough. I move, because it's like you're touching on the delays on some of the things that can be the killer of that. I think in the same way back in the day, Sudhnyalanshi said that you're dating yourself. And I remember when I was younger, we just had electricity for the first, I'm just kidding. But think about the first time when you're telling people like, no, the computer could do that for you. Lance Dacy (37:35) I'll see you later. Scott Dunn (38:02) I feel like we're becoming a lot of companies now like, no, AI could do that for you because they just don't know. If they're working a certain way and they've been in that company for 20 years, they think, no, my job is to create the new insurance for them and then send that, no, you don't have to do all that. So I think it'll be a redistribution because for all of us to see here right now and say, I've let go of thinking there's limits to this and that's where I've come to last few weeks. And we're, and we're. Lance Dacy (38:23) Yeah. Scott Dunn (38:26) Well, I'm going to, I feel, I feel we're cutting edge. Your audience may say differently, Brian, but I feel like we're cutting. I feel like we're cutting edge. And if we're just coming to realization, there's not limits. Think about your traditional worker who's not necessarily a knowledge worker, they're just in the office. They have a certain role. It's been not too different over the last 10, 20 years. They have no idea. I probably could cut that. You mentioned Lance about the ads and I was seeing something recently that said that those AI ads can cut, can cut the design time by 90%. Brian (38:31) Yeah Lance Dacy (38:46) Yeah. I would totally agree. I mean, I tried it and you just like you were saying, waiting on delays to me is my biggest thing. Like the best thing we can do for an organization is a value stream mapping of some sort and say, where does the cycle times killing us? There's so much low hanging fruit there that you could turn that into millions of dollars. And if we were just quit articulating words for that, let's just go do it. I feel like that's what AI is gonna do for us. We were talking about the, Mike's Brian (38:55) now. Lance Dacy (39:22) written a book on user stories and all that. So I'm going to use that as an example, as a product backlog entry point to getting work done. And I think we were talking about this before the podcast. And I feel like eventually we're just going to have a user say, as a user, I need to be able to pay by MasterCard on this screen and make sure the error message says this. And if it is successful, do that. And we won't need programmers. The computer will take that. And it'll write the code for that. It'll deploy the code and it'll say, what do you think about that? And so when you talk about this with agile, but I don't know what we're gonna have these, we're just gonna have users that can now have software created for them. Just like I can an ad, you know, it's like, I'm gonna have this design created, but I speak to it in natural language. Who cares if it's C++, COBOL or JavaScript or Python or whatever, it doesn't matter anymore. The computer will decide. and write it, deploy it, and manage it, and take all the complexity out of it. That's eventually where I think we're headed. Brian (40:23) OK, I just want to state this out there for all the listeners. Make sure you at the right person on this. It's Lance Dacey who said that all the programmers are losing their jobs. All right, just make sure you get it right. That's who said it. Uh. Lance Dacy (40:36) Oh my gosh. Scott Dunn (40:40) Here's to seeing you all again. Lance Dacy (40:41) Did I really say all? I just said it's going to be a disruptor. I thought, but you know, I'm sorry. So just like I think you like your next designers, I think software programmers are just highly creative and great people. So I mean, no, uh, you know, no, just be on the lookout, find a way to contribute to the fact that your job. Scott Dunn (40:45) I heard everyone within the year. I think that's what I heard. Brian (41:03) Yeah. No, I mean, all teasing aside, I think that the developers who are using it now within their IDEs and locked into some of these tools that are available to have AI help them with code, they're ahead of the game. And people who are afraid of that stuff and saying, no, I'm not going to keep that at arm's length, we've seen this movie a million times. Right. Scott Dunn (41:03) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Lance Dacy (41:19) Yeah. Yeah, played out over and over. It's like, you know what, Brian, two weeks ago, I don't know what the time is, I'm just being facetious right now, but a while ago, I would say that not true about programs because I say you will always need somebody programming the computer, but I've since now changed my mind thinking because I'm highly agile and I learned in that space and I drink my own champagne. That's not really true because I can go into chat, you know, I took, I'm a programmer myself, so I mean, no disdain about that, I remember in school, the first program I had to write was C++ about calculating the Easter Sunday date for a given year. And I had to write code to do that. And I tested that with my son over my shoulder, saying, I'm going to show you what ChatGPT can do. I said, write me a C++ program that calculates Easter Sunday for a given year. And I swear to you, in under a minute, all the code was there. Now, it didn't run. I had to take it and put it into an IDE and compile it and do all that stuff. But it worked. And it took me months to do that. So all I'm trying to say is it can help us be better. The creative side will always be there, but can you imagine not having to worry about code anymore? And you do more of prompting the computer instead of coding. That's really what I mean. I don't want to say their jobs are going away. I just think their jobs are going to be changed. They're going to be the next disruptor, just like I was talking about real estate agents and banking and all of us have been disrupted. But we gotta welcome it. Take it. Brian (42:37) Yeah. Scott Dunn (42:40) Yes. Brian (42:49) Yep. Yeah, right. Welcome to the party, pal. Yeah, no, I agree. Lance Dacy (42:57) Right! Scott Dunn (42:59) I feel like saying at this point, we should let all the listeners know that actually this podcast is AI generated and these are not actual people here. Lance Dacy (43:07) I'm not really sure. Brian (43:10) Yeah, this was done with the approval of these three people, but written by written by AI agents. No, no, it's absolutely not. These are real human beings. Well, guys, this has been a really interesting discussion. And I know we've gone a little bit long. But hey, it's the hundredth episode. Come on, cut us some slack, right? We got three of us here. We obviously are going to kind of diverge a little bit. So Lance Dacy (43:15) Good. Brian (43:35) Thank you guys so much for coming on and helping us to celebrate this 100th episode. I really appreciate it. So just want, you know, Scott, thank you. Scott Dunn (43:45) Thank you. Brian (43:46) And Lance, thank you as well. Lance Dacy (43:48) I'm about to say Lance, no thanks. Thank you, Greg and Brian. I always love being on here and Scott, great to see you. It's been too long. Scott Dunn (43:49) Yeah. Hahaha. Good job. Brian (43:52) Right. Scott Dunn (43:56) These two, yes, really enjoyed it. Brian (43:57) Awesome.

Dawn Carter,  director of product strategy at Centauri Health Solutions, joins us for the latest episode of RISE Radio, our podcast series that focuses on issues that impact policies, regulations, and challenges faced by health care professionals responsible for quality and revenue, Medicare member acquisition and experience, and/or social determinants of health.In this 23-minute podcast, recorded on April 18, Carter discusses the shift from the V24 to V28 risk model, the coding changes, and its risk adjustment applications. About Dawn Carter Dawn Carter, BSBA, CPC, CRC, CPMA, CDEO, CPCO, CSPO,  is a director of product strategy at Centauri Health Solutions. Her career in health care spans 25 years, which most recently includes extensive experience in developing revenue integrity and quality software solutions, with a focus on encounter management and risk adjustment solutions for Medicare Advantage, Medicaid, and Commercial health plans. She also provides strategic advisory solutions and consulting services for revenue cycle operations. Prior to that, her experience spans all domains of health care including health plan claims and provider systems administration, and healthcare applications development. Her experience also includes multiple teaching engagements in medical administration, billing, and coding. Carter holds a bachelor's degree in business administration. She is a passionate and prolific industry speaker, author, blogger and subject matter expert in claims, EDI management, and risk adjustment.  About Centauri Health Solutions Centauri Health Solutions is a leading provider of technology-enabled analytics and services helping health plans and health systems to manage their variable revenue linked to population health (risk), quality, and eligibility factors. These efforts result directly in better-informed health care delivery, richer benefits, and reduced out-of-pocket healthcare costs for the members and patients they serve.    

Join Brian as he and Arlen Bankston unveil the secrets of Liquid Agility in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Dive into how this innovative framework revolutionizes product management and fills the gaps in traditional Agile methodologies Overview In this episode Brian and Arlen Bankston delve into the intricacies of Liquid Agility, a comprehensive framework designed to enhance agile practices with its unique focus on prioritization, preparation, and outcome evaluation. Arlen walks us through the JUICE framework, which categorizes work into distinct streams—innovation, iteration, and operation—and discusses strategies for refining projects and maximizing the impact of released features. Whether you're a product owner, Scrum practitioner, or Agile enthusiast, this episode offers valuable insights into making agile methodologies more effective and adaptable to your needs. Tune in to transform your approach to product management and Agile practices with cutting-edge insights from Liquid Agility. Listen Now to Discover: [1:15] - Brian welcomes Scrum veteran, Certified Scrum Trainer®, partner at Grow-Lean LLC, author of HR and the Agile Organization, and creator of Liquid Agility. [2:53] - Explore the concept of Liquid Agility with Arlen as he reveals how it enriches traditional Agile practices, adding layers of depth and adaptability to methodologies [4:59] - Arlen discusses how Liquid Agility transforms prioritization, making it simpler to categorize tasks and put user needs first for more effective project management. [7:45] - Brian sheds light on the elegant simplicity and balance that Liquid Agility brings to the table, streamlining processes without sacrificing depth. [10:05] - Arlen delves into the nuances of his prioritization framework, giving a detailed walkthrough of the JUICE framework and its strategic benefits. [14:30] - Deepen your understanding and work hands-on to practice and understand the craft of being a great product owner by taking a Certified Scrum Product Owner® (CSPO) or Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® with Mountain Goat Software. Plus, you’ll be automatically enrolled in Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community, including twelve months of ongoing coaching and support. Find a complete list of our upcoming classes on the Mountain Goat Software's Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [24:55] - Arlen outlines effective strategies for teams to evaluate and select the tools that best align with their specific needs and goals. [27:59] - Arlen explains the essentials of readiness within the dynamic Liquid Agility framework, highlighting what true preparedness looks like in an Agile context. [31:30] - Brian shares a big thank you to Arlen for joining him on the show. [33:39] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here. [34:12] - If you liked the episode, share with any product owner you think might benefit from the discussion today, too! [34:30] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Send us an email. [34:46] - Catch Brian live and in person, and hear him speak at the upcoming 2024 Global Scrum Gathering in New Orleans and the Agile 2024 Conference in Dallas. References and resources mentioned in the show: Arlen Bankston Grow-Lean, LLC HR and the Agile Organization by Arlen Bankston Liquid Agility #3: What Makes a Great Product Owner? With Lance Dacy #14: What does it mean to be Product-Centric? With Scott Dunn #50: Exploring the Roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner with Lance Dacy Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast 2024 Global Scrum Gathering Agile2024 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Arlen Bankston is one of the very first Certified Scrum Trainers®, a Scrum veteran, partner at Grow-Lean LLC, author of HR and the Agile Organization, and creator of Liquid Agility. Known for his thought leadership and dynamic, entertaining, and practical training style, Arlen has trained and mentored thousands of ScrumMasters, Product Owners, team members and executives.

Explore the skills revolution with Brian and Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute as they dive into a landmark study on the skills shaping today's workforce. Learn why adaptability, human skills, and agile acumen are the keys to success. Overview In an enlightening episode, Brian sits down with Evan Leybourn, co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, to delve into recent research findings on the essential skills for the modern workforce. They discuss the paramount importance of human skills over technical abilities in hiring, the emergence of 'pie-shaped' professionals who excel in multiple domains, and the critical role of agile acumen across various job roles. Additionally, they address the pressing need for educational systems to pivot from traditional role-based learning to a more versatile skill-based approach. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone looking to navigate the workforce's future, offering deep insights into adapting and thriving in an ever-evolving professional landscape. Listen Now to Discover: [1:17] - Join Brian in a captivating session with Evan Leybourn, the innovative author and co-founder of the Business Agility Institute, as they explore groundbreaking insights into agility and workforce evolution. [2:32] - Discover the unexpected findings from Evan's recent study, ‘Skills in the New World of Work,’ on the workforce's most sought-after skills and their pivotal role in modern hiring practices. [4:50] - Brian sheds light on the rising value of soft, or human, skills in the workforce, suggesting a pivotal expansion of Scrum Master skills to embrace these vital attributes. [8:00] - Evan reveals their unexpected discovery: organizations are increasingly seeking 'pie-shaped' skills that blend diverse areas of expertise. [12:45] - Perfect your human skills and refresh your Agile approach with Mountain Goat Software’s Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® courses. For further details, visit the Mountain Goat Software training schedule. [15:05] - Unpacking the idea of 'pie-shaped' professionals, Evan details how these unique individuals bring multiple skill sets to one role, elevating their effectiveness and output, using a full-stack developer as an example. [16:22] - Evan tackles the provocative statement that Agile is dead, offering insights and counterarguments to this bold claim. [21:47] - Evan highlights a key finding: Agile Acumen emerges as the runner-up in the most coveted skills during the hiring process across organizations. [24:50] - Evan stresses an important takeaway: 'The skills you have are valuable,' pointing out that the essence of Agile expertise transcends the exact wording of job descriptions. [27:05] - Highlighting a necessary evolution in learning, Evan advocates for a move towards skill-based training and education, away from traditional role-focused models, to better prepare for the workforce of tomorrow. [29:21] - Brian shares his gratitude for Evan and his work to help better understand the job market. [30:02] - Brian invites listeners to join both him and Evan live and in person at the Global Scrum Gathering 2024 in New Orleans. [30:33] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [31:03] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Evan Leybourn Skills in the New World of Work: Which Agile Skills are Most In-Demand in Today's Workforce? Business Agility Institute Directing The Agile Organization: A Lean Approach To Business Management by Evan Leybourn #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value by Evan Leybourn Global Scrum Gathering 2024 Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of "Directing the Agile Organization" and "#noprojects; a culture of continuous value." Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy.

Dive into an enlightening conversation with Brian Milner and HR innovator Pia Maria Thorén on the transformative power of Agile in HR and leadership. Discover a people-centric approach that champions attitude, growth, and empathy. Overview Join Brian Milner in this compelling episode as he sits down with Agile and HR expert Pia Maria Thorén, who shares her insights on revolutionizing Human Resources and leadership with Agile project management principles. Pia Maria delves into the critical shift from traditional hiring practices to prioritizing attitude and potential, fostering a nurturing candidate experience, and the vital role of team involvement in the hiring process. Through her advocacy for empathy and a people-centric approach, Pia Maria outlines how understanding and support can transform handling performance challenges and layoffs into opportunities for growth. Tune in to explore how these strategies not only enhance HR practices but also pave the way for more dynamic, resilient organizations. Listen Now to Discover: [01:13] - Dive into an enlightening conversation with Pia-Maria Thorén, the visionary author behind 'Agile People' and a leading expert in Agile human resources. [02:30] - Join Pia-Maria as she unfolds the compelling narrative of Agile's breakthrough into HR practices, crafting a more effective and adaptive approach to leadership and human resources management. [07:46] - Hear from Pia-Maria as she unveils the secrets behind Agile's innovative recruitment and hiring strategies, focused on creating an environment where candidates are eager to work and flourish. [09:44] - Brian explores the catalyst behind Agile hiring practices, pondering how organizations kick-start the recruitment process when their sights are set not on vacancies but on attracting the perfect fit. [10:55] - Shifting the focus from traditional job slots to dynamic team contributions, Pia-Maria introduces the transformative concept of 't-shaped' teams in recruitment, urging a reevaluation of how we define the ideal candidate in job descriptions and hiring processes. [13:08] - Brian draws upon Simon Sinek's insightful video, dissecting the intricate relationship between trust and performance in teams, and highlighting the importance of trust in the makeup of high-performing teams. [15:00] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software. Elevate your expertise with their Certified Scrum Product Owner® course and gain exclusive access to Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community for a full year of continuous coaching and support. Explore the full spectrum of Certified Scrum and Agile Training on the Mountain Goat Software schedule. [16:44] - Pia-Maria introduces a groundbreaking perspective on measuring team success, steering away from individual performance metrics and static goals towards a more dynamic and holistic assessment strategy. [21:37] - Pia-Maria delves into the complex dynamics of employee departures and layoffs within the Agile HR framework, questioning how these principles reshape traditional approaches to such challenging situations. [28:11] - Pia-Maria raises compelling counterpoints to the general avoidance of specialization, inviting listeners to consider the circumstances under which honing in on specialized skills could be advantageous. [29:24] - Brian shares a big thank you to Pia-Maria for joining him on the show, inviting listeners to connect through Agile People or LinkedIn. [31:07] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, CSPO, or Mike Cohn’s Live Online Better User Stories class, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [31:40] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile People Agile People: A Radical Approach for HR & Managers by Pia-Maria Thorén Agile People Principles by Pia-Maria Thorén Agile People Picture Book by Pia-Maria Thorén et al. “How Do You Measure Success?” By Simon Sinek Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Scrum Gathering in New Orleans 2024 Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Pia-Maria Thorén is the founder of Agile People and author of ‘Agile People' and specializes in driving organizational agility through HR, leadership, and motivation. She creates workplaces where employees perform better and feel engaged, contributing to successful transformations from both financial and human perspectives

Join Brian and Avipaul Bhandari as they uncover a secret to transformative Agile teams. Discover how one-on-one conversations can redefine team dynamics and even scaled organizational culture. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Avipaul Bhandari, a seasoned Agile coach, takes us through the critical role of one-on-one meetings in nurturing agile teams. Avipaul sheds light on how such meetings are pivotal in building trust, understanding individual perspectives, and fostering a culture of empathy. By adopting a coaching mindset, Scrum Masters and coaches can empower team members to lead the conversation, encouraging them to uncover and propose their own solutions. Listen in as they explore the profound impact these meetings have on scaling agile principles and catalyzing cultural transformation within organizations. Through emphasizing individual strengths and ensuring a safe environment for honest dialogue, one-on-ones emerge as a key strategy for enhancing team performance and achieving agile excellence. Tune in to learn how you can leverage one-on-one meetings to unlock the full potential of your team and spearhead a shift in your organizational culture. Listen Now to Discover: [01:15] - Brian warmly welcomes Avipaul Bhandari, a distinguished Agile coach and musician, joining us by popular demand from our listener community. [02:26] - Avipaul unveils the secrets behind effective one-on-one interactions and their ripple effect on enhancing organizational culture. [05:54] - Avipaul heralds human connection as a key driver of positivity and cohesion within teams, advocating for its impact on team success. [07:14] - Discover how Avipaul successfully navigated resistance to one-on-one meetings, turning reluctance into productive conversations, even from those claiming to have nothing to say. [10:55] - Mountain Goat Software is the sponsor for this podcast. Whether you’re looking to get Certified ScrumMaster® (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner® (CSPO) training or want to take an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® (ACSM) class, click here to see what we have to offer. [12:00] - Brian discusses the profound impact of empathy and Simon Sinek's approach to nurturing a culture of psychological safety. [13:05] - Avipaul shares insights on enhancing empathy in the team members and yourself through the intimate dialogue of one-on-one meetings. [19:23] - Avipaul unpacks how one-on-ones within scaled teams can significantly boost processes and deeply motivate team members. [23:10] - Brian highlights how these interactions can embody and influence the broader company culture through demonstration, creating a ripple effect of positive change. [23:47] - Avipaul makes a compelling case for the power of respect in eliciting the best performance from everyone. [26:43] - Brian shares a big thank you to Avipaul for joining him on the show and the lister who suggested him! If you have a topic or person you would love to hear on the podcast, send your suggestions to podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com [27:41] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®, Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes; you can find the schedule here. [28:41] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Avipaul Bhandari Listen to Avipaul’s music on Spotify Simon Sinek’s Books Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Avipaul Bhandari is an established agile coach and musician with over 20 years of experience. He is an intuitive and knowledgeable change agent and has been instrumental in successful agile adoptions in companies such as Microsoft, the Financial Times, Allianz, and others.

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He's the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he's the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he's almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he's releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty's previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:• The rise of “product management theater”• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry• The most important skills for PMs to build• How to know if you're on a “feature team”• The potential disruption of product management by AI• Marty's new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations—Brought to you by:• Sprig—Build a product people love• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.—Find the transcript for this episode and all past episodes at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/episodes/. Today's transcript will be live by 8 a.m. PT.—Where to find Marty Cagan:• X: https://twitter.com/cagan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/• Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Marty's background(04:46) His take on the state of product management(12:08) Product management theater(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams(24:48) Skills of a real product manager(29:27) The product management reckoning is here(32:05) Taking control of your product management career(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era(49:44) The changing landscape of product management(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty's new book, Transformed(01:02:05) The product operating model(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams(01:11:25) Marty's thoughts on product ops(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don't want product managers(01:18:06) Lightning round—Referenced:• Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507• Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products: https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X• The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/• Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/• Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/• Linear: https://linear.app/• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product• Brian Chesky's new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/• Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/• Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/• What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum• CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner• PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309• Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/• Ben Erez's LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/• The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/• Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz' Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/• Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/• Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/• Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/• Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/• Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/• Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067• What's Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q• Rivian: https://rivian.com/• AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000• Leslie Lamport's quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking• Joan Didion's quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Join Brian Milner and Anton Skornyakov as they tackle the often overlooked art of slicing work on this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Discover how this pivotal strategy can revolutionize feedback loops and drive impactful results across industries. Overview Join us on a riveting journey with Agile expert Anton Skornyakov to unearth the transformative power of slicing work in Agile environments. In a world where most projects miss the mark on effective breakdown, Anton sheds light on the critical need for well-sliced work to secure valuable customer feedback and accelerate delivery of results. From the nuanced art of vertical slicing to innovative strategies for tackling complex story breakdowns, this episode is packed with insights and practical examples that span beyond the confines of software development. Whether you're grappling with how to split your next project into manageable increments or seeking to refine your Agile practice, Anton's expert advice and favorite splitting techniques offer a roadmap to success. Listen Now to Discover: [01:20] - Brian introduces an Agile Mentors Podcast listener-requested guest, Anton Skornyakov, Certified Scrum Trainer® and author of The Art of Slicing Work. [02:20] - Hear Anton recount the real-world struggles of translating the fundamental principle of defining effective increments into actionable insights for teams beyond software development. [04:39] - Anton delves into the art of work slicing by expertly applying the rules for splitting user stories, revealing insights for seamless practice. [06:41] - Anton brings vertical slicing to life with a relatable dinner party analogy, illustrating its transformative impact on teamwork. [11:12] - Anton uncovers the magic of vertical slicing, revealing its pivotal role in enhancing team responsibility—an esteemed Agile virtue. [13:01] - Facing challenges in cultivating a unified understanding of Agile principles across your team? Let Mountain Goat Software elevate your team's agility—from non-software teams to the executive suite. [13:58] - Brian expands the conversation to explore the far-reaching implications of vertical slicing on project management and team dynamics. [16:36] - Confronting a familiar hurdle, Anton dissects the notion that the complexity of work stands in the way of effective slicing. [17:57] - Anton explores strategies for navigating resistance when team members push back against the practice of slicing work. [19:20] - Anton reveals his insights into teams' struggles with splitting tasks they deem too large and how to overcome this perception. [24:43] - Anton shares his favorite ways of breaking down work. [28:47] - Brian expresses heartfelt gratitude to Anton for his invaluable insights on today's show and extends a warm thank you to the listeners for their brilliant guest recommendations. If you have a guest or topic suggestion for an upcoming episode, send us an email at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com [39:56] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. Please like, subscribe, and share with your friends. [30:30] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: The Art of Slicing Work by Anton Skornyakov Agile.Coach Introduction to Agile Working on a Scrum Team Agile for Leaders Mountain Goat Software’s Courses Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Anton Skornyakov is a Certified Scrum Trainer® and author of The Art of Slicing Work. He is passionate about educating and supporting organizations, reliably delivering results on unpredictable projects.

It's the 500th episode of Let's Talk Loyalty and we couldn't be more proud! This episode is a wonderful collection of voices from our audience - some of the incredibly LOYAL people who listen to our show week in and week out. Let's Talk Loyalty was first published back in 2019, and it was the very first podcast in the industry. While there are lots more people now publishing audio content for loyalty marketing professionals, we'll always be particularly proud of us being the first! We have been truly blessed to have so many amazing people listening, and as a result, we consistently rank in the top 3% of all global podcasts. SO THANK YOU ALL! To celebrate this milestone of 500 episodes, today is dedicated to our loyal community. We are thrilled that so many of you shared your voice messages with us, so we can share them with everyone else! These voice messages capture some of the incredible feedback we regularly get privately, telling us how much our content means to you and how much you learn by listening. This episode is a compilation of some wonderful wishes and voice messages from around the world, sharing that wonderful feedback with each other. We hope this episode helps you feel part of something truly great – a show where so many iconic brands and industry experts come and share their wisdom so generously. Thanks to all of you who sent in a voice message for this major milestone of 500 episodes. We can't wait to bring you our latest exciting ideas as we build the Let's Talk Loyalty community in the months and years to come! Enjoy! Show Notes: 1) Nejib Ben-Khedher  2) Rich Long, CLMP 3) Danielle Brown  4) Erica Hood  5) Mayank SinghNicholas Kerr  7) Sebastian Huschner, CLMP™ 8) Paul Kramer  9) Renato Ramos 10) Lynn Tan  11) Phil Rubin  12) Emily Ong, CLMPᵀᴹ, CSPO® 13) Amanda Cromhout 14) Lisa Brightwell  15) Charlie Hills CLMP  16) Cristina Ziliani  17) Javier Marin Martinon 18) Nik Laming CLMP  19) Suryaveer Singh  20) Valerie Popeck 21) Pablo Sordo 22) Adam Posner 23) Jenn (Arment) McMillen 24) Kevin Crowe 25) Abhi Vyas  26) Richard Schenker 27) Leandro Torres  28) Kristie Atkins  29) Brian Almeida  30) Alyssa Callahan  31) Lisa Routel  32) Nizar Al Qabbani  33) Jason Foo 34) Charles Ehredt35) Dominik Olejko  36) Let's Talk Loyalty

In this week’s episode, Brian is joined by the legendary Ken Rubin, the author of Essential Scrum. Together, they dive deep into the world of dependencies in larger organizations and scaling, drawing from Ken's extensive experience since the early days of Scrum. If you're navigating the complexities of dependencies and looking to optimize your team's flow, this episode is a must-listen. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes the iconic Ken Rubin to explore the intricate realm of dependencies at scale. They dive into the impact of dependencies on flow, the challenges of scaling, and the effectiveness of feature teams in managing structural dependencies. Ken shares valuable insights into the myths surrounding dependencies and practical strategies for minimizing their impact, whether they involve external partners, scarce specialized roles, or deliberate component teams. As a bonus, Ken announces his upcoming one-day live online course where you’ll dive deeper into effective dependency management strategies, Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! Tune in as Ken and Brian provide practical wisdom, actionable strategies, and a wealth of knowledge. Listen Now to Discover: [01:16] - In today’s episode, Brian sits down with the first director of the Scrum Alliance and author of Essential Scrum, Ken Rubin. [03:03] - Ken defines dependencies as a relationship between two or more entities that requires collaboration or coordination. [04:31] - Ken distinguishes two dependency types: structural and instantiated. [06:48] - Brian emphasizes addressing the root cause of dependencies, comparing it to optimizing water flow in plumbing systems. [08:06] - Ken stresses the importance of addressing structural dependencies to prevent them from becoming blockers and impeding flow. [10:18] - Brian highlights an upcoming one-day live online course with Ken titled Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! on March 14th, emphasizing its relevance for Scrum Masters and product owners. [11:10] - Ken defines the concept of flow and compares it to the concept of utilization. [13:04] - Leaders listening should prioritize optimizing flow over squeezing individuals for efficiency. [14:23] - Ken underscores the importance of managing structural dependencies by balancing system-level WIP. [16:28] - Ken debunks the myth that 100% feature teams can eliminate all dependency issues. [19:14] - Ken shares how feature teams are compelling but face exponential challenges. [21:45] - Ken explores the need for specialized roles in scaling feature teams, proposing a threshold approach. [24:57] - Discover why Ken advocates for a combined feature and component team model, suggesting systemic swarming for specialized roles. [26:55] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Private Training for Agile transformations. Get your team on the same page through subject-specific training, coaching, and mentoring. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training page. [28:06] - Ken challenges the idea of a one-size-fits-all solution for dependency problems, cautioning about tool limitations. [30:25] - Ken proposes expanding the concept of working agreements to include inter-team arrangements. [33:55] - Ken highlights the misconception of solving external dependencies through internal escalation, stressing the limitations and challenges. [35:40] - Ken dispels the myth that identifying dependencies means solving the problem, emphasizing the need for control. [38:35] - Brian highlights the significant impact of waiting time, using the example of ordering a t-shirt online. [39:36] - Addressing flow problems in scaling challenges is crucial. [42:35] - Brian underscores the impact of addressing flow issues and promotes Ken's upcoming one-day live online course, Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! on March 14th [43:24] - Brian highlights the value of Ken's insights on dependencies and provides helpful resources and links. [43:50] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [47:26] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [48:12] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Dependencies are Killing Your Agility: Learn to Fight Back! Essential Scrum by Kenneth Rubin Innolution Dependencies Are Killing Your Agile Flow at Scale by Ken Rubin #47 Exploring Lean Thinking In Agile Development with Bob Payne Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ken Rubin is the #1 best-selling author of Essential Scrum and world-renowned Agile trainer and coach. Ken focuses on full end-to-end business agility, applying agile ways of working with your development teams, technical and business leaders, executives, as well as the important non-development groups that are critical to providing your whole product solutions.

Join Brian in this solo episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he tackles listener questions, discussing topics ranging from the impact of AI on Scrum teams to managing retrospective challenges and fostering active participation. Don't miss this episode filled with practical advice and thought-provoking discussions. Overview In this solo episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian answers listener questions unraveling everything from AI's role in Scrum to the complexities of Agile practices and team dynamics. Listen in for valuable insights as Brian explores metrics for evaluating the effectiveness of product owners, offering key indicators for project success. He also discusses managing challenges within retrospectives, including strategies for handling upper management involvement, fostering transparent reporting, and the significance of visibility in sprint reviews. Discover the art of promoting active participation in retrospectives—Brian underscores the significance of psychological safety within teams and offers actionable insights into tailoring retrospective approaches to your team’s diverse personality types. Tune in as Brian answers listener questions with both practical wisdom and actionable advice. Listen Now to Discover: [01:18] - In today’s episode, Brian sits down to answer Agile Mentors Podcast listener questions. [01:59] - Brian briefly shares a personal update about speaking at the upcoming Global Scrum Gathering 2024 New Orleans and invites listeners to attend. [03:21] - The first listener question explores whether AI can replace members of a Scrum team. Brian discusses the current state of AI and its potential applications in different roles within a Scrum team. He also shares how his team is using “Goatbot.” [08:10] - For the second listener question Brian tackles the issue of handling resistance to Agile from a team member, sharing some strategies to understand the root cause and address misunderstandings. [11:48] - Brian introduces the third question about using metrics to judge the effectiveness of a product owner. [14:47] - Brian discusses handling retrospective issues involving upper management, and the value of transparent reporting. [16:42] - Brian explores scenarios about the cost of addressing an impediment and the importance of transparent decision-making by the organization. [17:22] - Brian suggests raising visibility in sprint reviews and seeking assistance from stakeholders or powerful individuals to address unresolved issues. [18:45] - Today's episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software's Certified Product Owner Course. This is a two-day training course taught by one of our Certified Scrum Trainers to teach you how to use the product backlog as a tool for project success. For more information, visit the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [24:39] - Brian explores the issue of low participation in retrospectives, and how to tailor approaches to different personality types for more active engagement. He highlights the work of Amy Edmondson, suggesting her research on psychological safety for deeper insights into team dynamics and participation. [26:15] - Lack of safety may be the Scrum Master's responsibility. [27:18] - Awareness of personality types is crucial for Scrum Masters. Brian advises varying retrospective formats to avoid monotony, including visual and written formats tailored to diverse preferences. [30:38] - Brian thanks listeners and invites them to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [31:23] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. [32:39] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. References and resources mentioned in the show: Global Scrum Gathering 2024 New Orleans Psychological Safety – Amy C. Edmondson Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they journey into the heart of handling conflicts and challenges within small teams for effective teamwork in the latest episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Scott Dunn sits down with Brian to delve into handling conflicts and challenges within small teams. From the impact of hierarchies on team dynamics to the nuances of technical leadership, listen in as Brian and Scott tackle the intricacies of managing conflicts to navigate the delicate balance between individual excellence and fostering a collaborative team culture. Listen in as Listen Now to Discover: [01:54] - Today, Brian is sitting down with Scott Dunn to discuss the topic of handling conflicts and challenges in small teams, particularly regarding hierarchies and experience levels. [03:17] - Scott shares his experience with issues arising from unofficial authorities, highlighting challenges with project managers and leads. [04:03] - Scott talks about the transition to a democratic process and shares a humorous anecdote about a unique meeting disruption and the resolution. [07:27] - Brian discusses the challenge of individuals feeling a loss of authority in the shift to self-organization and emphasizes the need for communication to address their concerns. [08:27] - Brian categorizes leads into obstructive and unintentionally hindering types. [09:27] - Scott discusses the need for aligning expectations with Agile principles. [11:34] - Brian discusses the challenges faced by Scrum Masters and Agile coaches in identifying and addressing team dynamics, emphasizing the importance of clear communication, and understanding to resolve misunderstandings. [12:07] - Scott shares an example of a scrum master effectively addressing a bottleneck issue with a lead. [13:13] - Brian highlights a leadership misunderstanding where senior individuals are consistently assigned challenging tasks and the unintended consequences of pigeonholing experts into specific roles. [14:35] - Scott shares experiences of individuals falling into roles they didn't initially choose, and the negative impact on job satisfaction. [15:32] - The importance of promoting teamwork, continuous learning, and adaptability over being the sole expert. [16:11] - Brian discusses the issue of knowledge silos and suggests a proactive approach within the team to mitigate risks and ensure knowledge sharing. [16:32] - The importance of managing resource fungibility and avoiding bottlenecks. [17:40] - Brian debunks the idea of job security for those deliberately hoarding knowledge and emphasizes the importance of staying marketable and adaptable. [18:52] - Scott highlights the consequences of being difficult to work with and shares the secret for long-term professional success. [20:00] - The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® course. Plus, automatic enrollment in Mike Cohn’s Agile Mentors Community, including twelve months of ongoing coaching and support. To learn more, check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [20:42] - How different roles, especially leads, should interact in a scrum team where equality is emphasized. [21:34] - The importance of a lead developer having a mindset focused on helping others succeed and empowering the team. [22:31] - Scott defines true technical leadership and the importance of empowering team members to scale workload and creating a culture of learning within the team. [23:59] - The impact of senior team members as "pollinators of learning." [24:56] - Brian defines a lead's role using sports analogies to illustrate leadership beyond individual excellence. [26:48] - Brian shares the ‘see one, do one, teach one model for successful leadership and teams. [27:57] - Leveling up expectations and helping and asking for help as a lead. [32:32] - Setting the example by what you do, not by what you say. [33:17] - The importance of leads in establishing culture. [34:53] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott for joining him on the show. [35:29] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email. [36:10] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM or CSPO. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

In this episode, we speak with Erika Brooks, CSPO, manager of admission services at the PA Education Association, and Olivia Ziegler, PA, chief experience officer at the PA Education Association. We discuss applicant experience and the CASPA process, advice for students who are thinking about applying to a PA program, the importance of letters of reference, and the timing for submitting an application. This episode is sponsored by Aquifer.    Show notes Erika Brooks has worked in the graduate medical education industry for 12 years. As a seasoned Application services manager, she is passionate about improving the user experience and streamlining processes. In addition to managing the CASPA, she is also involved in educating PA programs on the benefits of including aspects of Holistic review in the admissions process. She also engages with those interested in the PA profession and Health Professions Advisors to ease anxiety around the application to process and dispel any myths about the profession. Erika currently serves as the PAEA staff partner to the CASPA Advisory Committee and assists in developing policies and procedures for CASPA. Her work in graduate admissions extends beyond PAEA as she served as a Co-chair for the CAS executives' group. This group of healthcare association executives has oversite for application services for health professions, including OT, PT, Dental, Athletic Training, MD/DO etc . Outside of the office, Erika enjoys supporting Liverpool F.C., learning how to crochet, and traveling.   The PA Path Podcast is produced by Association Briefings.

Guest: David Adeoye Abodunrin PMP, CSM, CSPO, CSP-SM, MSC, Cybersecurity Project Manager/Enterprise Agile Coach at Cybarik [@CybarikGlobal]On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/abodunrinadeoyedavid/____________________________Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin____________________________This Episode's SponsorsImperva | https://itspm.ag/imperva277117988Pentera | https://itspm.ag/penteri67a___________________________Episode NotesIn this episode of the Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast, host Sean Martin engages in a conversation with David Adeoye Abodunrin about the operationalization of security throughout the organization. They explore the importance of considering cybersecurity from the beginning stages of product development and the challenges that can arise when attempting to retrofit security measures.David emphasizes the need for organizations to think about cybersecurity as a layer throughout the entire value map, from conceptualization to product design and implementation. He highlights the trade-offs and complexities involved in integrating cybersecurity later on in the process and stresses the role of security architects in the early stages of product development. By incorporating risk analysis and cybersecurity considerations from the start, organizations can create more robust and cost-effective security programs.The conversation also delves into the obstacles faced by CIOs, CEOs, and CMOs when it comes to prioritizing cybersecurity in the beginning. Sean and David discuss the potential for finding nimble and efficient solutions by addressing security concerns early on. The challenges of retrofitting security and the financial implications of doing so are explored, along with the issues related to legacy systems and ERPs that lack proper cybersecurity measures.Throughout the episode, Sean and David provide valuable insights and practical advice for building effective cybersecurity programs and integrating security into the fabric of an organization's operations. They stress the importance of thinking about cybersecurity from the conceptualization stage of product design and highlight the role of security architects in this process. They also touch upon the need for trade-offs between speed and customer convenience in implementing security measures like multiple factor authentication.Overall, this episode provides listeners with a deeper understanding of how to operationalize security and navigate the challenges of incorporating cybersecurity from the outset. The conversation is informative and thought-provoking, offering practical insights for organizations looking to build robust and cost-effective security programs.____Watch this and other videos on ITSPmagazine's YouTube ChannelRedefining CyberSecurity Podcast with Sean Martin, CISSP playlist:

Guest: David Adeoye Abodunrin PMP, CSM, CSPO, CSP-SM, MSC, Cybersecurity Project Manager/Enterprise Agile Coach at Cybarik [@CybarikGlobal]On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/abodunrinadeoyedavid/____________________________Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin____________________________This Episode's SponsorsImperva | https://itspm.ag/imperva277117988Pentera | https://itspm.ag/penteri67a___________________________Episode NotesIn this episode of the Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast, host Sean Martin engages in a conversation with David Adeoye Abodunrin about the operationalization of security throughout the organization. They explore the importance of considering cybersecurity from the beginning stages of product development and the challenges that can arise when attempting to retrofit security measures.David emphasizes the need for organizations to think about cybersecurity as a layer throughout the entire value map, from conceptualization to product design and implementation. He highlights the trade-offs and complexities involved in integrating cybersecurity later on in the process and stresses the role of security architects in the early stages of product development. By incorporating risk analysis and cybersecurity considerations from the start, organizations can create more robust and cost-effective security programs.The conversation also delves into the obstacles faced by CIOs, CEOs, and CMOs when it comes to prioritizing cybersecurity in the beginning. Sean and David discuss the potential for finding nimble and efficient solutions by addressing security concerns early on. The challenges of retrofitting security and the financial implications of doing so are explored, along with the issues related to legacy systems and ERPs that lack proper cybersecurity measures.Throughout the episode, Sean and David provide valuable insights and practical advice for building effective cybersecurity programs and integrating security into the fabric of an organization's operations. They stress the importance of thinking about cybersecurity from the conceptualization stage of product design and highlight the role of security architects in this process. They also touch upon the need for trade-offs between speed and customer convenience in implementing security measures like multiple factor authentication.Overall, this episode provides listeners with a deeper understanding of how to operationalize security and navigate the challenges of incorporating cybersecurity from the outset. The conversation is informative and thought-provoking, offering practical insights for organizations looking to build robust and cost-effective security programs.____Watch this and other videos on ITSPmagazine's YouTube ChannelRedefining CyberSecurity Podcast with Sean Martin, CISSP playlist:

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, we dive deep into the fascinating world of neurohacking with Ted Wallace. Discover how you can unlock your brain's superpower to accelerate your learning and personal development journey! Overview Are you ready to revolutionize the way you learn, work, and lead? In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast join Brian and his guest, author Ted Wallace as they delve into the fascinating world of using neurohacking to unleash the potential of your brain. Whether you want to change your habits, learn a new skill faster, or just increase your personal and professional growth, listen in for valuable insights that can help you harness neuroplasticity to tap into your brain's incredible potential. Listen Now to Discover: [01:02] - Brian introduces his guest, Ted Wallace, an Enterprise Agile Coach at the Principal Financial Group. Ted has also co-authored a series of books including Total Brain Coaching and Self Empower with his father, Dr. Robert Keith Wallace. Today’s show is a deep dive into the concept of neurohacking and its application in personal and organizational development and learning. [01:22] - What is Total Brain Coaching? [04:48] - How understanding the connection between neuroscience and learning can help individuals approach situations and come up with effective strategies. [06:10] - Ted discusses the research findings from his book 'Neurohacks' which explores ways to help individuals change their habits for faster learning. [07:32] - The importance of individual growth in driving overall organizational and societal change. [08:54] - How simple neurohacks such as getting enough sleep, can have a positive impact on mental health and productivity while networking and collaboration help amplify intelligence and foster innovation. [11:39] - We all have different learning styles. Ted walks listeners through the different learning styles and how applying personalized learning can lead to faster adoption and habit change resulting in improved team performance and adaptability. [13:15] - This podcast episode is made possible by our sponsor, Mountain Goat Software. The company’s Scrum certification classes were developed with the assistance of an instructional designer for an online learning experience that is both interactive and engaging. For more information visit Certified Scrum Training, Agile Training by Mike Cohn. [14:23] - The key elements in building effective habits for increased productivity. [16:35] - Why creating an environment of psychological safety is essential in improving learning outcomes. [20:51] - How different levels of adoption, from self-coaching to group dynamics, can accelerate value delivery. [21:53] - Maslow's Hierarchy and for effective meetings. [22:55] - How the Cynefin framework and Agile practices can help solve hard problems elegantly. [26:02] - How implementing neurohacks can improve the speed of learning. [27:36] - Ted walks listeners through some neurohacks that help improve learning. [28:52] - Neuroplasticity is everyone's superpower but what’s the secret to developing new pathways in the brain? [33:17] - You can connect with Ted by visiting his website at Total Brain Coaching and for further learning check out his books. [35:49] - If you want to discuss this topic further join the Agile Mentors Community and jump into the discussion there. [36:22] - Do you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show? Great! Just send us an email and don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: Total Brain Coaching Total Brain Coaching: A Holistic System of Effective Habit Change For the Individual, Team, and Organization 16 Super Biohacks for Longevity: Shortcuts to a Healthier, Happier, Longer Life The Coherence Code: How to Maximize Your Performance And Success in Business - For Individuals, Teams, and Organizations Self Empower: Using Self-Coaching, Neuroadaptability, and Ayurveda Trouble In Paradise: How To Deal With People Who Push Your Buttons Using Total Brain Coaching The Backwards Brain Bicycle - Smarter Every Day 133 Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ted Wallace is currently an Agile Coach at Principal Financial Group. He is a certified Scrum Master Professional (CSM, CSPO, CSP, CTC) and a registered corporate coach (RCC) with thousands of hours of coaching sessions. He’s also the author of several books, including Total Brain Coaching and Self Empower.

Aria Omidvar: The Product Owner vs. Project Manager Dilemma, A Difficult Balance Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: People-First Product Ownership Aria describes an exemplary Product Owner known for his unwavering commitment to learning and professional development. This PO's proactive approach included avid reading and active participation in workshops and seminars. He invested heavily in his own growth, and his presence within the team was palpable, emphasizing a people-first mindset. The PO's belief in the team, coupled with his fearlessness in addressing conflicts, set him apart as a remarkable Product Owner.  The Bad Product Owner: PO vs. Project Manager Dilemma, A Difficult Balance Aria delves into a common anti-pattern where a Product Owner takes on project management responsibilities, which can hinder agile software development. He highlights the mismatch between these roles, referencing insights from Marty Cagan. Aria notes the temptation for POs to become intermediaries for upper management. He shares a success story where open communication and willingness to listen enabled a positive shift in the PO's approach. This episode provides valuable guidance on avoiding pitfalls in the Product Owner role.   [IMAGE HERE] Are you having trouble helping the team work well with their Product Owner? We've put together a course to help you work on the collaboration team-product owner. You can find it at bit.ly/coachyourpo. 18 modules, 8+ hours of modules with tools and techniques that you can use to help teams and PO's collaborate.   About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: The Many Layers to Scrum Master Success Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria explores the layers of success for Scrum Masters, highlighting the transformation of team culture. He assesses success through the lens of team self-reliance, self-organization, and ownership of work. Aria's metric for success involves equipping teams with tools and practices that enable them to effectively carry out their responsibilities. This episode offers valuable insights into the multifaceted nature of success in the role of a Scrum Master. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Making Retrospectives Clearly Different From Other Meetings and Work Aria shares his preferred retrospective format, emphasizing the importance of a distinct mindset for this higher-order team work. He advocates for creativity and mindfulness, aiming to set retrospectives apart from regular team activities with a specific format he shares in this episode. Aria offers practical tips such as note-taking, root cause analysis, and solution brainstorming during discussions. He underscores the value of critical thinking, focusing on root causes, and showing the path to solutions. Aria's approach promotes effective retrospectives as a catalyst for meaningful team improvement.   [IMAGE HERE] Retrospectives, planning sessions, vision workshops, we are continuously helping teams learn about how to collaborate in practice! In this Actionable Agile Tools book, Jeff Campbell shares some of the tools he's learned over a decade of coaching Agile Teams. The pragmatic coaching book you need, right now! Buy Actionable Agile Tools on Amazon, or directly from the author, and supercharge your facilitation toolbox!    About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: Lessons from a Top-Down Agile Transformation Journey Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria recounts his involvement in a top-down, multi-layered agile transformation in a company with five teams. Despite management's drive for change, the transformation faced resistance from the teams on the ground. After six months, it became evident that morale and engagement had plummeted, and the desired outcomes were not met. Aria attempted widespread training, but this approach backfired. He learned the importance of focusing on one major change at a time, prioritizing people, and fine-tuning direction for successful transformations. The episode serves as a valuable guide for navigating complex organizational shifts.   [IMAGE HERE] As Scrum Master we work with change continuously! Do you have your own change framework that provides the guidance, and queues you need when working with change? The Lean Change Management framework is a fully defined, lean-startup inspired change framework that can be used as the backbone of any change process! You can buy Lean Change Management the book at Amazon. Also available in French, Spanish, German and Portuguese.   About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Are you looking to elevate your product management career and your peers? Apply to join Elevate, an exclusive program for high-performing product managers to learn from Executives in Residence and each other.   Learn more at: https://elevate.info.foster.uw.edu/   In this episode of the How to Succeed in Product Management Podcast, marketing professor Jeff Shulman welcomes Charles Stewart, Chris Kuang, and Jamie Lambert, CSPO, LSSGB to talk about PM roles and opportunities in the U.S. Digital Corps. The U.S. Digital Corps serves as an impactful avenue for individuals interested in public service and various tech-related fields, including product management. This program is designed to offer a meaningful platform for talented professionals to contribute their skills and expertise to government initiatives. Whether you're passionate about digital transformation, user-centered design, or product management, the U.S. Digital Corps provides a unique opportunity to make a difference in the public sector while helping to shape the future of government technology.   Disclaimer: All opinions of the speakers are their own.   What to Listen For: 00:00 Intro 09:25 U.S. Digital Corps PM Opportunities 13:38 PM Roles and Responsibilities in the U.S. Digital Corps 15:55 Tech and Design in Public Service 18:01 Aligning Stakeholders and Overcoming Challenges 22:36 The Power of Curiosity in PM 24:04 Serving The Government 27:02 Introducing PM Practices in the Public Sector 32:44 Opportunities for Both Early Career and Seasoned Professionals 37:41 Finding Your Niche in Public Service 41:05 Job in The Public Service as a TV Show 42:28 Eligibility Criteria for Public Service Fellowships 45:30 Mastering the U.S. Digital Corps Assessment 47:01 Final Thoughts

Aria Omidvar: Friendship or Performance, The Hard Dilemma Scrum Teams Sometimes Face Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria shares a common team pitfall: sacrificing trust, transparency, and courage for camaraderie. In this case, a team's cohesion eroded as they prioritized friendliness over addressing performance issues. One underperforming developer strained the team's efforts, despite trying to help that team member. The team's hesitancy to confront the issue led to a painful breakdown. Aria emphasizes proactive communication and recommends 'The Hard Thing about Hard Things' as a resource. He underscores the importance of clear warnings and transparent discussions to salvage a struggling team. Featured Book of the Week: Peopleware: Productive Projects and Teams by DeMarco and Lister Aria discusses the profound impact of the book "Peopleware," which predates the modern Agile movement. He notes its timeless relevance, emphasizing its focus not only on software but also on the crucial element of 'peopleware.' Despite lacking current Agile terminology, the book remains remarkably insightful. Aria also references Fred Brooks' "Mythical Man-Month" in his exploration of timeless books that have influenced the Agile movement.   [IMAGE HERE] Do you wish you had decades of experience? Learn from the Best Scrum Masters In The World, Today! The Tips from the Trenches - Scrum Master edition audiobook includes hours of audio interviews with SM's that have decades of experience: from Mike Cohn to Linda Rising, Christopher Avery, and many more. Super-experienced Scrum Masters share their hard-earned lessons with you. Learn those today, make your teams awesome!     About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: Rebuilding Trust In Your Scrum Team, After A Big Disappointment Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria, a Scrum Master, recounts a challenging situation where his team faced significant changes, including losing key members and transitioning to remote work. He attempted to address the issues through a retrospective but faced resistance in setting up follow-up sessions. This led to a team member deeming the retro "useless," which left Aria feeling disheartened. As a developer and Scrum Master, Aria reflects on the importance of open communication and acknowledges his loss of faith in the team at that time. Ultimately, he grapples with regaining faith in his team, highlighting the complexity of his role in this critical juncture.   [IMAGE HERE] Recovering from failure, or difficult moments is a critical skill for Scrum Masters. Not only because of us, but also because the teams, and stakeholders we work with will also face these moments! We need inspiring stories to help them, and ourselves! The Bungsu Story, is an inspiring story by Marcus Hammarberg which shows how a Coach can help organizations recover even from the most disastrous situations! Learn how Marcus helped The Bungsu, a hospital in Indonesia, recover from near-bankruptcy, twice! Using Lean and Agile methods to rebuild an organization and a team! An inspiring story you need to know about! Buy the book on Amazon: The Bungsu Story - How Lean and Kanban Saved a Small Hospital in Indonesia. Twice. and Can Help You Reshape Work in Your Company.   About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter.

In this week's episode, Lisa Condon shares insight on gratitude. We discuss the impact of gratitude for ourselves, those in our circle and the world around us. Lisa encourages listeners to start planting gratitude one seed at a time!   Episode Highlights Alignment of the head and heart Daily active practice of gratitude How to use gratitude to connect with others Embrace gratitude as a grounding tool to be in the present moment Gratitude as an anchor of peace Connect with Lisa here. Stepping into Gratitude will be released November 8, 2023. This book is a compilation of gratitude. You will read many inspirational gratitude stories! Find it on Amazon and on Lisa's website.   Guest Bio: Lisa Condon, CBB, CSP, CSPO, Business Strategist, Executive Coach and self-proclaimed Gratitude Practitioner, is the type of person who makes you feel comfortable with who you are and who is so familiar—yet, you cannot believe you have not yet met her. This most likely stems from her deep engagement with her community, as well as her 25+ years of experience in an executive capacity across sales, marketing, and customer service. Lisa is very memorable as she explains what makes her stand out in a crowd: “I am 5' flat with a 6' tall personality.” It is easy to describe Lisa as strong, professional, and feminine because Lisa sees women as pillars of endurance, strength, and creativity. Especially, when they work together to support each other's ideas and gifts. Lisa applies a positive approach combined with an ever-present state of gratitude for her work and her clients. Ask Lisa about mistakes and she will tell you she does not believe in regrets as every experience is a learning opportunity.

Today Kevin and Laura speak with David Adeoye Abodunrin about cyber threat intelligence, compliance versus cyber security and human firewalls. We get into a debate about Zuckerburg vs. Musk, being a prince and much more!With a remarkable track record spanning over two decades, David Adeoye Abodunrin PMP, CSM, CSPO, CSP-SM, MSC is a distinguished authority in Project/Program Management, Agile Transformations, Human Capital Management, Cybersecurity, and Coaching, offering a multifaceted approach to personal and professional and enterprise growth. Holding a plethora of certifications, including being a Certified Scrum Professional- Scrum Master(CSP-SM), Certified Management Consultant (CMC) and Project Management Professional (PMP), he stands as a versatile figure equipped to navigate complex landscapes.Armed with a master's degree in Cybersecurity and specialization in Cyber Forensics and Threat Intelligence, David illuminates strategies to combat cyber threats, safeguard digital ecosystems, and address the nuances of cyberwarfare. His insights resonate with individuals and organizations seeking to fortify their online security measures.David's Agile PM, HR and Corporate leadership acumen sets him apart. By harmonizing his psychology, coaching, project management, and agile expertise, he empowers organizations to embrace agility in their enterprise practices, fostering leadership excellence. His holistic approach extends beyond conventional methodologies, enabling businesses to navigate dynamic environments with adaptability and innovation.

Join Brian on the Agile Mentors Podcast as he sits down with Mike Hall for a refreshing perspective on SAFe (Scaled Agile Framework), its real-world applications, and the hidden costs of a one-size-fits-all approach. Overview Today, on the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian delves into the intricacies of SAFe (Scaled Agile Framework) with guest Mike Hall of Agile Authority. Listen in as Mike shares the four essential steps for effective SAFe implementation, the hidden costs of a one-size-fits-all method, and why it's crucial to listen, understand, and honor the dynamics within your unique organization. Tune in to gain a profound understanding of SAFe and how to make it work for your team. Listen Now to Discover: [01:21]- Brian Milner introduces his guest, Mike Hall, Founder and chief evangelist of Agile Authority to discuss the Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe). [02:41] - Mike shares his background and perspective on SAFe and clarifies this is not a SAFe bashing session. [05:07] - The importance of lean thinking and continuous improvement. [06:13] - Mike shares the definition of SAFe and its core components, and popularity in Agile transformations. [09:08] - The pros and cons of SAFe: Mike explains why SAFe appeals to executives and its popularity in addressing agile scaling needs. [13:06] - Brian and Mike acknowledge the criticism of SAFe but discuss the appeal of its "connective tissue" concept. [14:04] - Mike highlights some of the pros of SAFe, including the accessible resources and low risk. But also shares some potential issues like the importance of value alignment and the comprehensive yet generic nature of SAFe. [16:53] - Improving SAFe: Brian asks Mike which aspects of SAFe he believes could be enhanced. [17:19] - Mike discusses the issue of considerable overhead and complexity, especially in the full configuration mode. [18:35] - In SAFe there are six new team roles that require training investments along with the addition of 17 new recurring meetings (events) in SAFe and 31 new artifacts. [20:51] - Mike discusses the extensive elements of SAFe, underlining new roles, meetings, and artifacts while emphasizing the need to evaluate their relevance for specific organizations. [23:51] - Customizing SAFe to reduce waste and overhead, Mike raises the question of a more efficient way to leverage lean and agile concepts in a fit-for-purpose approach. [28:45] - A word from our sponsor: Mountain Goat Software's Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® class teaches you the skills you need to increase your confidence, credibility, and value as a product owner with interactive software that makes the breakout exercises both valuable and fun. You’ll also receive 12 months of membership in the Agile Mentors Community. [29:31] - Mike introduces the concept of simple scaling, and its focus on four common-sense steps to consider—with the flexibility to discard steps that don't apply. [30:53] - Brian mentions #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks. [31:10] - Step 1: Start with a Clear Business Objective: Mike shares the importance of beginning with a well-defined objective. [32:19] - Step 2: Observe, Understand, and Honor the Past: The most overlooked step, Mike shares why skipping it can be counterproductive. [33:28] - Step 3: Align to the Flow of Value. [34:28] - Step 4: Apply Targeted Agile Principles and Practices: Mike shares how specific Agile practices can be chosen to align with the business objective, like improving product quality. [34:38] - Mike highlights Agile practices that enhance product quality, (such as working at a sustainable pace, shift-left testing, test-driven development, code reviews, and sprint reviews) and help reduce errors. [35:09] - Mike discusses the concepts that can be used to align with the business objective of faster time-to-market. [36:41] - Brian and Mike discuss the debate on targeted vs. mass deployment, the key factors driving this debate, and how Agile principles and practices can help. [38:07] - Brian shares the significance of choosing the right guide for Agile transformations, emphasizing the importance of philosophy alignment. [39:00] - Why every framework should come with a big red asterisk in the fine print. [40:36] - Brian shares an analogy related to taking medicine, highlighting the importance of a targeted approach for organizations. [43:01] - You can connect with Mike Hall, on the Agile Authority website. [43:59] - Did you know we discuss every episode of the podcast in the Agile Mentors Community? Join us (a 12-month membership is included with any training class from Mountain Goat Software) and post your questions there. Additionally, if you enjoyed this episode share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. As always, if you have feedback or ideas for the show, just email podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com. References and resources mentioned in the show: Agile Authority #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Hall, of Agile Authority is a seasoned Agile Coach/Trainer, who brings 20+ years of Agile experience, specializing in software development and technology leadership. With a rich repertoire of Agile and Scaled Agile certifications, including CSP, CSM, CSPO, and SPC6, he's a key player in Agile transformations.

Join Brian and Agile pioneer Jim Highsmith as they dive into the riveting saga of 17 tech rebels who defied convention, unleashed their passions, and revolutionized the world of software development. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Agile pioneer Jim Highsmith to share how 17 tech rebels reshaped the software landscape. Jim shares captivating stories from his time working with NASA and Nike to the collaboration of 17 nonconformists that led to the Agile Manifesto and transformed the software industry. Listen in for a behind-the-scenes look at the circumstances that led to the birth of Agile and how camaraderie, collaboration, and a human-centric approach sparked a wildfire of support for the Agile movement. Tune in to this episode for insights, lessons, and a glimpse into the future of Agile from an industry legend. Listen Now to Discover: [01:10] - Brian introduces Jim Highsmith, a renowned figure in the Agile community. Jim is an experienced software developer, writer, and storyteller. His latest book, "Wild West to Agile," has become a sensation in the industry, earning the top spot as a new release on Amazon. He also co-authored the Agile Manifesto and the Declaration of Interdependence for Project Leaders, co-founded the Agile Alliance, and served as the first president of the Agile Leadership Network. [03:57] - Jim recounts his journey working on the NASA Apollo program and how the constant advancements in technology shaped the course of the Apollo project, offering valuable insights into the era's challenges and adaptability. [08:47] - Jim shares a fascinating story from his time at Nike, where outdated requirements left a project stagnant for 18 months. [10:34] - How waterfall methodologies left companies trapped and projects taking too long and costing too much. [11:53] - Setting the stage for the revolutionary Agile movement. [13:16] - A problem so painful leadership was on board to find a solution. [14:48] - A message from our sponsor: Mountain Goat Software has courses from Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification to Certified Scrum Product Owner Training that equips you with the sought-after skills valued by top-notch teams. Visit the Mountain Goat website for all the details. [15:40] -Jim reveals the connections and common ground that started the manifesto meeting. [18:21] - An agenda-free meeting with 17 nonconformist experts seeking common ground and how an encounter with Steve Mellor led to an unexpected alignment of intent. [21:01] - 17 individuals, each with nonconformist perspectives, agree. [21:17] - Why did 17 audacious techies revolutionize the world? And what lessons can we learn from their experience for the future? [23:39] - Where Agile's lasting impact lies and what keeps it at the forefront of change. [24:39] - Putting aside competition for collaboration and cooperation that led to change. [25:30] - What keeps Agile at the forefront of change? Brian shares a nugget of wisdom from Jim's book about Agilists. [26:38] - Finally, a language that spoke to us all!—how the Agile movement shattered the notion of interchangeable cogs and embraced our humanity, sparking a wildfire of support. [27:59] - Jim shares his thoughts on where he thinks the Agile movement is headed and why he thinks the agility of organizations and people will be a definite advantage in the future. [29:56] - Brian mentions his high recommendation for listeners to pick up Jim’s book, Wild West to Agile: Adventures in Software Development Evolution and Revolution. [31:38] - There are a ton of podcasts out there; thank you for taking the time to listen to this one. And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [32:05] - If you've considered taking a CSM or CSPO class, check us out at Mountain Goat Software. Or join the conversation in our Agile Mentors Community. [32:32] - If you have feedback for the show or topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here, and I'll get back to you ASAP. References and resources mentioned in the show: Jim Highsmith Jim Highsmith on LinkedIn Wild West to Agile Agile Manifesto Agile Alliance Agile Leadership Network Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the "Agile Mentors" Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Jim Highsmith is an experienced software developer, writer, storyteller, and industry pioneer recognized for his instrumental role in the birth of the Agile movement. His latest book, "Wild West to Agile," has become a sensation in the industry, earning the top spot as a new release on Amazon. Jim continues to inspire and guide Agile enthusiasts worldwide through his insightful stories and expertise.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they explore the key differences, skill sets required, and the exciting opportunities in the roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to explore the dynamic roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. They delve into the fundamental differences between these roles, highlighting the unique skill sets required for each. Lance shares his valuable insights and personal experiences, shedding light on the challenges and opportunities that arise in these pivotal positions. Whether you're considering a career in Agile or seeking to enhance your understanding of Scrum, listen in to this episode for practical advice and guidance for aspiring Scrum Masters and Product Owners and a deeper understanding of the crucial roles they play in driving successful projects and maximizing team productivity. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian Milner has Lance Dacy on the show today to talk about a question emailed to the listener email address about the two different approaches to Scrum and which class would be a good fit for you, a Certified Scrum Master (CSM) or a Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO). [02:28] - Lance shares how he looks at the two different designations and what he looks at as the centerpiece of the process of Scrum. [03:24] - Things to consider when deciding whether the CSM or the CSPO is right for you. [04:34] - Where to start your Scrum journey as a beginner and when taking both the CSM and the Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) classes might be beneficial. [05:28] - You don't have to be a Scrum Master to benefit from the CSM class. [05:54] - The dual focus of the Product Owner roles and the diminishment of Scrum roles. [06:45] - The challenge of combining these roles effectively. [07:54] - The goal is to be agile rather than just doing Scrum-Lance shares the importance of delivering value efficiently and early. Relegating the Scrum Master to facilitation and metrics tasks yields minimal ROI. [08:28] - Do you ever see the coach playing the game? [09:10] - Scrum is a tool - you have to know the tools, how to apply them, and, more importantly, how to use them for the appropriate case. [10:16] - The distinction between programmers (those who code) and developers (anyone working to produce the product) and a look back at the developer role in Scrum. [11:34] - What confuses most people about the different classes and roles. [12:28] - The importance (and top challenges teams face) of capacity planning, Sprint planning, and daily work management in Scrum teams. Lance shares why addressing these aspects is valuable for software and product teams, including marketing and infrastructure teams. [13:44] - The value of certifications as a standard and an advantage in certain situations, but it's like learning to drive - experience is crucial. [15:42] - The importance of learning the values, principles, and tools associated with Agile methodologies to engage in experimentation and gain practical experience, whether a CSM, CSPO, or CSV. [16:25] - How active involvement in user groups and communities (such as the DFW Scrum user group) provides valuable insights and career benefits, fostering collective knowledge sharing and continuous learning in Scrum (and beyond). [17:23] - Mountain Goat Software, the sponsor for this podcast, offers certified LIVE online Scrum classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM) and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO) classes. Book more than three weeks in advance for an early bird discount of $100. [18:38] - Lance shares the three characteristics of a great product owner. [19:28] - Advice for what you should do if you’re starting from scratch and aiming to become a product owner to gain exposure and valuable experience in the field. [21:28] - The likelihood of moving from Scrum Master to product owner rather than vice versa. [22:47] - The four requirements of becoming a Scrum Master requires strong facilitation, teaching, mentoring, and coaching skills, and the demands of being a product owner that makes it a higher barrier for entry. [23:52] - The focus of a Scrum Master vs. a product owner. [24:48] - It's like being the Zamboni for a hockey team—as a Scrum Master, you have the opportunity to work in diverse industries, ranging from space science and astrophysics to finance and software development, without being an expert in those domains. [26:34] - A safer environment for experimentation and growth without the high stakes of individual accountability. [26:58] - Brian shares the primary determining factor in deciding between product owner or Scrum master. [27:51] - In the movie-making industry, like in software teams, there are distinct roles and responsibilities. You can choose to define the problem, manage the process, or contribute to building the product—pick your door and start running (and if you don't like it, you can always switch). [29:06] Real knowledge comes from doing, BUT a class can get you started on the right foot to understanding how to do things and getting your hands dirty to cement further what you want to do. [30:26] - Lance shares how obtaining a CSM or CSPO certification is like earning a black belt in karate—it's a pathway that empowers you to explore. [33:24] - Still on the fence? Send us a note, and we'll gladly help you find your path. [33:40] - Check out the Mountain Goat's training schedule to attend a class with Lance or Brian. [34:01] - Exciting news! We have introduced an Agile Professional Directory to our Agile Mentors community. As a member, you can now sign up and claim your certifications, allowing you to showcase your expertise when interacting with others on the site. [34:35] - Don’t forget, Mountain Goat Software offers a range of classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM), and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO). We love having podcast listeners join our classes to explore further the topics discussed on the show (click here to subscribe). References and resources mentioned in the show: Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® #4: The Developer Role in Scrum with Sherman Gomberg DFW Scrum (Dallas, TX) | Meetup Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Here's proof that a disability can be a catalyst for incredible leadership, strength, and success.Michael Swiatek is Chief Strategy and Planning Officer of Avianca, a Latin American Group carrier based out of Colombia. He shares his inspiring journey of transforming his disability into his greatest asset and empowering others to do the same. Get ready to be motivated and inspired to turn your own limitations into limitless possibilities.He's also held leadership roles in 8 different airlines including United Airlines, Qatar Airlines, Indigo, and Air New Zealand.Michael has been legally blind since birth and serves as Chairman of the International Air Transport Association's working group on Accessibility (IATA is the trade association for the world's airlines, representing some 290 airlines or 83% of total air traffic.)He's a graduate of Iona University with an MBA from The University of Chicago Booth School of Business. LinkedIn Profile https://co.linkedin.com/in/michaelswiatekCompany Link: https://www.avianca.com/us/en/What You'll Discover in this Episode:The inspiring story of a legally blind newspaper delivery boy.Unleashing your superability: The ultimate tool for self-discovery and empowerment.The three vital imperatives for every leader: Keys to achieving lasting impact.Using the “1,000 day career cycle” to accelerate your success.Breaking barriers: The truth about executive leadership with a disability.What it's like being an executive with a disability.How one setback paved the way for unprecedented success.Tech tools for the vision impaired that every leader can use.-----Connect with the Host, #1 bestselling author Ben FanningSpeaking and Training inquiresSubscribe to my Youtube channelLinkedInInstagramTwitter

In this episode of the Post-Acute POV, originally featured in the McKnight’s Long-Term Care Expo, Jenny Lee, Regulatory Compliance Manager, and Cassie Diner, BSN, RN, CPHIMS, CSPO, SA, Clinical Product Manager, have a conversation on the major changes coming to MDS and how skilled nursing facilities can prepare. Join Jenny and Cassie as they discuss how the new MDS items may affect your assessment process moving forward, what you should do to help your staff prepare for these changes, and what to look for to ensure your technology vendor is working to ease this transition. Listen to their discussion below. Topics discussed during today’s episode: [01:47 – 07:09]: Cassie greets the audience, introduces the topic, and provides background on her expertise in managing regulatory changes. She then offers seven recommendations for providers as they prepare for the MDS changes going into effect, on October 1, 2023. [07:09 – 12:13]: Next, Cassie elaborates on the main changes: Section G or functional status being removed from standard OBRA forms, the potential for new OSA or state forms, 29 new or modified MDS questions bringing more commonality between post-acute care and the OASIS form used in home health, and more. [12:13 – 18:06]: Cassie describes both a complicated and simple reimbursement change that was made at the state level. Wisconsin’s elaborate PDPM transition and Illinois’ much simpler transition to PDPM. She goes on to discuss the state-level uncertainty and nuance with the OSAs. [18:06 – 22:58]: Cassie and Jenny share what the audience can do now to prepare. Review your assessments or observations completed by nursing and other parts of the interdisciplinary team within your EHR system to see where changes need to be made and eliminate questions or change questions prior to the October 1st deadline to capture necessary data. [22:58 – 28:29]: Next, Cassie describes how organizations should work with their technology vendor as we approach these major changes. Attend your vendor’s advisory council meetings and share your status or any new information to stay on the same page with your vendor. Also, consider participating in complimentary training provided by CMS. [28:29 – 33:47]: Cassie describes the three roles that facilities should focus on as CMS begins to release the requisite documentation: caregiver or nursing staff, dedicated educators, and MDS coordinators. She then shares some key insights and feedback she has gathered within the industry. [33:47 – 38:15]: Cassie closes the discussion by sharing how the coming months will be huge for continued success leading to October as the CMS is expected to release final MDS questions and item sets. It will remain a top priority to stay in the loop with your technology vendor. Resources Learn more about MatrixCare: https://www.matrixcare.com/ Find out more about McKnight’s Long-Term Care News: https://www.mcknights.com/ Read the transcript of today’s episode Listen to more episodes of the Post-Acute POV Disclaimer The content in this presentation or materials is for informational purposes only and is provided “as-is.” Information and views expressed herein, may change without notice. We encourage you to seek as appropriate, regulatory and legal advice on any of the matters covered in this presentation or materials. ©2023 by MatrixCare

In this episode, we interview Jonah Jolley, Director of Engineering, and Stephanie Bressan, PSM, CSPO of DEPT® about the relationship between product and engineering teams.   What makes a good partnership? What doesn't make a good partnership? We also talk about the importance of empathy, trust, keeping priorities visible, and how you must come prepared with snacks! We wrap up with thoughts on Agile: Does it help or hurt? Do velocity metrics matter? Are standups even helpful?

https://agileprinciple.com Hello and welcome to our PMI-ACP training program. If you're a PMP certified project manager, you may be wondering what the PMI-ACP certification is all about and how it can benefit you. Well, we're here to tell you that the PMI-ACP certification is the next logical step in your career progression, and we want to help you achieve it in 2023. To begin your PMI-ACP journey, please visit: https://agileprinciple.com Get PMI-ACP certified in a class that actually helps you become a true PRACTITIONER of the content through deep dialog, roleplay and team-work! Joined in this video with 3 of our awesome Alumni Jiki Dean-Adedeji, MBA, PMP, PMI-ACP, CSS, WSET2, Chandra Macha, and Francis Anyimigbo, PMP, PMI-ACP, CSM, CSPO, CPA, FCA, MSc - all ACP certified! Sign up here: www.agileprinciple.com and join my buddy Roy Schilling and I for this next AGILE adventure! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/pmpradio/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/pmpradio/support

Dallas Jackson joins Brian to explore the human aspect of work and the challenges that come with prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Dallas Jackson joins Brian to delve into the human side of work and why it's essential to create work that fits people's lives rather than forcing humans to fit the work. They delve into the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace as a Scrum Master and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Listen in as they explore the challenges of adapting to change, why prioritizing human factors is essential for driving cultural shifts, and how to create an Agile culture that supports the human element of work. Listen Now to discover: [01:13] - Brian introduces Dallas Jackson, a native Texan, living in New Zealand who is a Teaching Assistant with Mountain Goat Software and certified team coach with Scrum Alliance. [03:18] - Dallas highlights the importance of recognizing individuals as human beings and creating work that fits their lives rather than forcing humans to fit into work. [05:17] - Brian shares the value of remote work to allow individuals to gain insight into each other's personal lives and encourages virtual show-and-tell sessions to foster stronger team bonds. [06:43] - Connecting to foster deeper relationships as a team. [07:42] - Dallas shares how showing her humanity helped her build a connection with colleagues, leading to a development of trust and a better quality of teamwork. [10:41] - Why it's important as a leader to prioritize taking care of employees. [12:21] - Dallas shares why creating a positive environment where people feel cared for and supported is crucial for producing good work. [15:22] -The importance of building connections in team relationships through reciprocity and sharing personal stories, even those unrelated to work. [16:39] - How opening ourselves up allows us to give the best to our fellow humans because we're ALL members of the same tribe—the human race. [18:06:] - Brian shares the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace, including avoidance. [21:08] - What about conflict—Dallas shares the importance of playing the long game and how not to handle it as a Scrum Master. [23:39] - How using crucial conversations helps everyone stick with the facts and avoid misunderstandings caused by differing perspectives. [24:43] - Brian shares the mantra he uses with teams to move beyond personal conflicts and focus on finding solutions. [26:08] - Acknowledging that facts are the foundation, but feelings in the workplace matter too. [27:17] - Dallas explains the significance of goldfish memory in conflict management, completing the stress cycle, and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. [28:07] - Brian shares why the Scrum Master's job is similar to that of a football coach in that you need to be clued into the emotional temperature of your team. [30:32] - You can't process your way to a better culture—cultural shifts change when we take humans into account. [31:38] - Agile is a philosophy that requires a shift in thinking about work and a departure from following step-by-step instructions and can be a difficult transition for organizations to make. [32:39] - Dallas shares a football vs. rugby analogy about how to help managers make a mindset shift. [34:53] - Brian shares that working with humans requires a different approach than working with machines because repeatability isn't always possible—adaptation is the name of the game. [36:26] - Dallas shares the Cherokee saying that we die a thousand deaths to become our true selves. [37:54] - You can hear more from Dallas at Scrum Australia in March. References and resources mentioned in the show: Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle Scrum Australia Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Dallas Jackson is a Teaching Assistant at Mountain Goat Software with a multitude of Scrum and Agile qualifications, including CSM, CSPO, CAL-E.

Dallas Jackson joins Brian to explore the human aspect of work and the challenges that come with prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Dallas Jackson joins Brian to delve into the human side of work and why it's essential to create work that fits people's lives rather than forcing humans to fit the work. They delve into the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace as a Scrum Master and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. Listen in as they explore the challenges of adapting to change, why prioritizing human factors is essential for driving cultural shifts, and how to create an Agile culture that supports the human element of work. Listen Now to discover: [01:13] - Brian introduces Dallas Jackson, a native Texan, living in New Zealand who is a Teaching Assistant with Mountain Goat Software and certified team coach with Scrum Alliance. [03:18] - Dallas highlights the importance of recognizing individuals as human beings and creating work that fits their lives rather than forcing humans to fit into work. [05:17] - Brian shares the value of remote work to allow individuals to gain insight into each other's personal lives and encourages virtual show-and-tell sessions to foster stronger team bonds. [06:43] - Connecting to foster deeper relationships as a team. [07:42] - Dallas shares how showing her humanity helped her build a connection with colleagues, leading to a development of trust and a better quality of teamwork. [10:41] - Why it's important as a leader to prioritize taking care of employees. [12:21] - Dallas shares why creating a positive environment where people feel cared for and supported is crucial for producing good work. [15:22] -The importance of building connections in team relationships through reciprocity and sharing personal stories, even those unrelated to work. [16:39] - How opening ourselves up allows us to give the best to our fellow humans because we're ALL members of the same tribe—the human race. [18:06:] - Brian shares the importance of understanding and appropriately responding to conflict in the workplace, including avoidance. [21:08] - What about conflict—Dallas shares the importance of playing the long game and how not to handle it as a Scrum Master. [23:39] - How using crucial conversations helps everyone stick with the facts and avoid misunderstandings caused by differing perspectives. [24:43] - Brian shares the mantra he uses with teams to move beyond personal conflicts and focus on finding solutions. [26:08] - Acknowledging that facts are the foundation, but feelings in the workplace matter too. [27:17] - Dallas explains the significance of goldfish memory in conflict management, completing the stress cycle, and prioritizing the team while ensuring everyone is heard. [28:07] - Brian shares why the Scrum Master's job is similar to that of a football coach in that you need to be clued into the emotional temperature of your team. [30:32] - You can't process your way to a better culture—cultural shifts change when we take humans into account. [31:38] - Agile is a philosophy that requires a shift in thinking about work and a departure from following step-by-step instructions and can be a difficult transition for organizations to make. [32:39] - Dallas shares a football vs. rugby analogy about how to help managers make a mindset shift. [34:53] - Brian shares that working with humans requires a different approach than working with machines because repeatability isn't always possible—adaptation is the name of the game. [36:26] - Dallas shares the Cherokee saying that we die a thousand deaths to become our true selves. [37:54] - You can hear more from Dallas at Scrum Australia in March. References and resources mentioned in the show: Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle Scrum Australia Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Dallas Jackson is a Teaching Assistant at Mountain Goat Software with a multitude of Scrum and Agile qualifications, including CSM, CSPO, CAL-E.

jE and Simar gratefully reflect on 2022, and what a year it has been!In both meeting and working in collaboration with brilliant and ambitious individuals that they have met along the way, uniting with a single purpose, to build a better future for all of nature and humankind, using the emerging tools at the intersection of climate & Web3. Helena from Spirals and Brian from LOA LABS jump on to have a catch up too! Helena Merk CEO at Spirals "Spirals makes it easy for any money to work towards climate impact. Rather than holding ETH, you can now hold Green ETH, and rather than holding CELO, you can hold Green CELO." https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenamerk/ Brian Truax, CSPO at LOA LABS "Here you are today, staring down the barrel of 2023. And while the best time to demand the best for and of yourself was years ago, the second best time is right now." https://www.linkedin.com/in/briantruax/ Mentioned: Celo Connect https://celoconnect.com/barcelona2022/ David Dao from Gain Forest Labs https://daviddao.org/ Gain Forest Labs https://www.gainforest.earth/ Amira from Solana https://twitter.com/amiravalliani Solana https://twitter.com/solana Ryan from Kleiner Perkins https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanpanchadsaram/ Dr. Watson from Toucan https://www.linkedin.com/in/annahollidaywatson/ Toucan https://toucan.earth/ Klima DAO https://www.klimadao.finance/ Kevin from Gitcoin https://twitter.com/owocki Scott from Gitcoin https://twitter.com/notscottmoore Gitcoin Grants https://gitcoin.co/grants/ NFT Pivot https://www.nft.pivot-tokyo.com/ Sev from Eco Labs https://twitter.com/sevnightingale Eco Labs https://www.eco-labs.xyz/ Gregory from Regen Network https://twitter.com/gregory_landua Regen Network https://www.regen.network/ Luuk from Kolektivo https://twitter.com/LuukDAO Kolektivo https://www.kolektivo.network/ BICOWG https://gitcoin.co/grants/3091/blockchain-infrastructure-carbon-offset-working-g Michael from Loa Labs https://mobile.twitter.com/michael_loa_lab Black Artist Foundation https://mobile.twitter.com/BlackArtistFND Real Simple Labs https://mobile.twitter.com/realsimplelabs Climate Collective https://climatecollective.org Checkout: ReFi Gratitude NFT https://refigratitude.xyz/ Good Reads: jE What is ReFi Article https://je.mirror.xyz/S-dpms92hw6aiacUHoL3f_iAnLVDvbEUOXw7wpy7JaU Ministry for the Future https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ministry_for_the_Future Sacred Economics https://sacred-economics.com/ 00:00 Intro 01:20 Gratefulness 04:24 Belonging 13:17 Past, present & future of ReFi 17:10 Simar, founder to investor 22:30 Relationships of LPs/GPs 23:07 Venture capital perspective 27:37 Brian 30:10 2022 Highlight 31:47 Trials and tribulations 35:28 Togetherness 36:34 Self help practises 39:33 Role in Refi 43:00 Refi Gratitude collection 50:40 Brian's CTA 51:12 Helena 51:43 2022 Highlights 54:50 Personal impact 57:40 Spirals update 58:30 FTX collapse 01:02:30 ETH Denver 01:03:21 Thanks to frens! Special thanks to all the listeners, Simar, Johnx25bd, Climate collective, Thomas, Lewis and Henry at Feed ignite, Pheadrus, Pranav and Cate. See you at ETH Denver! https://www.ethdenver.com/ Join the conversation on Twitter, follow: https://twitter.com/ReFiDAOist https://twitter.com/climateXcrypto https://twitter.com/simarsmangat https://twitter.com/johnx25bd Thanks to our frens at Feed Ignite for the podcast and micro-content production: https://feedignite.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refipodcast/message

As we say farewell to 2022, we'd like to leave you with a special episode featuring multiple guests – all of whom are working hard to leave veterinary medicine better than they found it. Enjoy these snippets from the conversations we had at Connexity this year, when we asked each guest, “What does a better world look like to you?”   Plus... stay tuned till the end for a few rare Central Line outtakes.   Find all of AAHA's most up-to-date Guidelines, including resources for your clients and team, at aaha.org/guidelines.  Wish you could watch these conversations? Catch Central Line on YouTube.   Got something to say? We're always up for constructive comments and conversation. Send us feedback or questions anytime at podcast@aaha.org.  Learn More About Today's Guests Michael Shirley   Josh Vaisman, MAPPCP (PgD)  Alyssa Mages, BS, CVT   Phil Richmond, DVM, CAPP, CPPC, CPHSA, CCFP   Garrott Van Bebber, DVM Liz Van Bebber, DVM Holly Hunt Kortney Ellerbe Niccole Bruno, DVM  Genine Ervin-Smith, DVM, MPH  Adam Hechko, DVM   Addie Reinhard, DVM, MS   Cheyanne Flerx  Emily Tincher, DVM   Jules Benson BVSc MRCVS   Garth Jordan, MBA, CSM, CSPO   Jennifer Bruns, DVM, MPVM   Kathleen Cooney, DVM, MS, CHPV, CCFP   Kathryn Primm, DVM  Kim Fish   Margot Vahrenwald, DVM   Omar Farias, VMD  Ryan Champagne  This episode was produced by Clear Contender LLC.

In this episode of The Thoughtful Entrepreneur, your host Josh Elledge talks with Jonas Rinde, CEO and Founder of Nomono. Jonas shares the story behind Nomono, which they designed as a complete podcast workload solution: no wires, no levels to adjust - just great sound, no hassle. In addition to automatic downloading and the ability to easily sync to the cloud, Jonas says Nonomo is a ready tool for professional spatial audio - a way for humans to listen to audio the same way as sound is heard in real life. Discussing its features, uses, and benefits, Jonas shares what makes Nomono powerful and incredibly user-friendly, especially for podcasters. He puts it simply, "a podcast studio in a box".Key Points from the Episode:Overview of what Nomono isWhat is Spatial Audio?Nomono Features, Functions and BenefitsAbout Jonas Rinde:Jonas Rinde is the current CEO of Nomono. He holds an MSc in Embedded Product Design from KTH Royal Institute of Technology and a BSc in Product and Industrial Design from Kristianstad University. Jonas is also certified by Grow - Tomorrow's design leaders in Cross Company Full and Scrum Alliance in CSPO, Certified Scrum Product Owner.About Nomono:Nomono is a team of 33 (and growing) with expertise across signal processing, acoustics, consumer electronics and media production.The company was founded in 2019 by Audun Solvang, Jonas Rinde, and Sigurd Saue. While most of us work from our headquarters in Trondheim, Norway, a select few hang out in Oslo and New York (but secretly wish they lived in Trondheim.) They are working together to simplify the production process for podcasters and broadcast journalists. Their goal is to enable meaningful conversations and storytelling without technology getting in the way.Nomono builds hardware and software that is intuitive, collaborative and easy-to-use while delivering exceptional audio quality. They do it for the love of sound, stories, and human connection. From cave paintings to podcasting, great stories are what connects people. Nomono enables storytellers to be creative by freeing them from the complexity of audio production. We build technology that fades into the background and feels invisible, to make audio storytelling a human experience, not a technical challenge.Tweetable Moments:02:04 - "Special Audio is a way for humans to listen to audio, the way the audio is being heard in a realistic way."15:16 - "If you do recording the field, there are a lot of hours going and just fixing it all to make it sound good enough for your listeners."Apply to be a Guest on The Thoughtful Entrepreneur: https://go.upmyinfluence.com/podcast-guestLinks Mentioned in this Episode:Want to learn more? Check out Nomono's website at https://nomono.co/Check out Nomono on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/company/nomonosound/Check out Nomono on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/nomonosound/Check out Nomono on Twitter at

You heard correctly... AgileDad is at it again with a 100% Free Scrum Alliance Workshop for Military Veterans! Details can be found at AgileDad.Com/military

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the wild world of Project Management. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss how the world of project management can blend successfully with an Agile approach. There seems to sometimes be an attitude that it’s an either/or decision with these two. In this podcast, we take a look at how to blend them, how project managers fit in, and how these two disciplines can coexist. Julie brings her experience to this discussion having come from the project management realm. Listen now to discover: 3:42 - Brian asks Julie about the general distrust between these communities 6:15 - Julie shares that 50% of the PMP exam now is on Agile practices 8:38 - Julie brings up the dreaded status report - Green / Yellow / Red 12:10 - Julie brings up the politics of Green / Yellow / Red 15:10 - Julie talks about the cost of poor quality 16:26 - Are we in the Agile community making PMs feel wrong? 17:22 - Brian discusses Outcomes vs Output 26:10 - Brian asks about PMs who are in companies making transitions. What happens to the project managers? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Brian and Mike Cohn share some of the best questions from their live coaching calls on the Agile Mentors community. References and resources mentioned in the show Monty Python Project Management Institute The Cowman and the Farmer Should be Friends from Oklahoma! HBR article on Output vs Outcomes From Project Manager to Scrum Master - 3 Tips for Making the Transition Agile Project Management by Jim Highsmith The Software Project Manager’s Bridge to Agility by Michele Sliger and Stacia Broderick PM Illustrated: A Visual Learner’s Guide to Project Management by Mike Griffiths - free on Kindle Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the wild world of Project Management. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss how the world of project management can blend successfully with an Agile approach. There seems to sometimes be an attitude that it’s an either/or decision with these two. In this podcast, we take a look at how to blend them, how project managers fit in, and how these two disciplines can coexist. Julie brings her experience to this discussion having come from the project management realm. Listen now to discover: 3:42 - Brian asks Julie about the general distrust between these communities 6:15 - Julie shares that 50% of the PMP exam now is on Agile practices 8:38 - Julie brings up the dreaded status report - Green / Yellow / Red 12:10 - Julie brings up the politics of Green / Yellow / Red 15:10 - Julie talks about the cost of poor quality 16:26 - Are we in the Agile community making PMs feel wrong? 17:22 - Brian discusses Outcomes vs Output 26:10 - Brian asks about PMs who are in companies making transitions. What happens to the project managers? Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Brian and Mike Cohn share some of the best questions from their live coaching calls on the Agile Mentors community. References and resources mentioned in the show Monty Python Project Management Institute The Cowman and the Farmer Should be Friends from Oklahoma! HBR article on Output vs Outcomes From Project Manager to Scrum Master - 3 Tips for Making the Transition Agile Project Management by Jim Highsmith The Software Project Manager’s Bridge to Agility by Michele Sliger and Stacia Broderick PM Illustrated: A Visual Learner’s Guide to Project Management by Mike Griffiths - free on Kindle Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

Join Brian Milner and Julie Chickering as they discuss the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. Overview Brian Milner talks with Julie Chickering about Sprint Reviews, addressing the myth that the Sprint Review is primarily an opportunity to ‘demo’ the increment to stakeholders. As an experienced Project Management Professional, Julie shares her perspective on the Sprint Reviews from a project management viewpoint. She shares different ways to approach this event and offers advice on what components are needed for a good quality Sprint Review. Brian and Julie agree that the Sprint Review meeting is probably the most important Scrum event for product people as it encourages collaboration and generates the feedback required to increase the chances of creating a successful product. However, opinions on who should attend the meeting, how it should be run, and how to collect relevant feedback can change quite considerably from one organization to another. Are you holding Sprint Reviews every Sprint? Do you have Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Are you getting valuable feedback from your Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Brian and Julie discuss why you should be answering “Yes” to each of these questions and share their tips on how to make your Sprint Review more effective. Listen now to discover: · 00:06:06 - How the Scrum Review saves time in the long run · 00:10:20 - The benefits of reducing the distance between the developer and the end user · 00:11:49 - The Stakeholder feedback window – how long should feedback take? · 00:12:19 - Why you should never skip a Sprint Review · 00:12:30 - Why Stakeholders need to be constantly engaged for a Scrum team to be successful · 00:13:49 - The integral role of the Product Owner in Sprint Reviews · 00:17:05 - Why you shouldn’t cancel a Sprint Review even if work isn’t “done” · 00:21:36 - Why you need to clarity the definition of “done” to Stakeholders · 00:27:19 - Tips and feedback to anyone wanting to improve their Sprint Reviews · 00:31:02 - The importance of preparation before Sprint Reviews · 00:34:29 - Methods of collecting feedback · 00:39:32 - The best order for a Sprint review · 00:41:36 - How to coach stakeholders to increase team productivity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Sprint Retrospectives with guest co-host Scott Dunn. You’ll learn the primary importance of this Scrum event and how to run effective and engaging Sprint Retrospective meetings that boost productivity and lead to positive change. References and resources mentioned in the show · Daniel Pink – When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential - to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

Join Brian Milner and Julie Chickering as they discuss the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. Overview Brian Milner talks with Julie Chickering about Sprint Reviews, addressing the myth that the Sprint Review is primarily an opportunity to ‘demo’ the increment to stakeholders. As an experienced Project Management Professional, Julie shares her perspective on the Sprint Reviews from a project management viewpoint. She shares different ways to approach this event and offers advice on what components are needed for a good quality Sprint Review. Brian and Julie agree that the Sprint Review meeting is probably the most important Scrum event for product people as it encourages collaboration and generates the feedback required to increase the chances of creating a successful product. However, opinions on who should attend the meeting, how it should be run, and how to collect relevant feedback can change quite considerably from one organization to another. Are you holding Sprint Reviews every Sprint? Do you have Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Are you getting valuable feedback from your Stakeholders in your Sprint Reviews? Brian and Julie discuss why you should be answering “Yes” to each of these questions and share their tips on how to make your Sprint Review more effective. Listen now to discover: · 00:06:06 - How the Scrum Review saves time in the long run · 00:10:20 - The benefits of reducing the distance between the developer and the end user · 00:11:49 - The Stakeholder feedback window – how long should feedback take? · 00:12:19 - Why you should never skip a Sprint Review · 00:12:30 - Why Stakeholders need to be constantly engaged for a Scrum team to be successful · 00:13:49 - The integral role of the Product Owner in Sprint Reviews · 00:17:05 - Why you shouldn’t cancel a Sprint Review even if work isn’t “done” · 00:21:36 - Why you need to clarity the definition of “done” to Stakeholders · 00:27:19 - Tips and feedback to anyone wanting to improve their Sprint Reviews · 00:31:02 - The importance of preparation before Sprint Reviews · 00:34:29 - Methods of collecting feedback · 00:39:32 - The best order for a Sprint review · 00:41:36 - How to coach stakeholders to increase team productivity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Sprint Retrospectives with guest co-host Scott Dunn. You’ll learn the primary importance of this Scrum event and how to run effective and engaging Sprint Retrospective meetings that boost productivity and lead to positive change. References and resources mentioned in the show · Daniel Pink – When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Take a second to leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential - to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the best practices and common pitfalls to avoid during the Daily Scrum event. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss the true purpose of the Daily Scrum and how to make this 15-minute meeting more efficient. According to the Scrum Guide, the Daily Scrum is to inspect progress towards the Sprint Goal, synchronize activities, and create a plan for the next 24 hours. Debunking the myth that “The Daily Scrum is a Status Meeting”, Julie and Brian share their first-hand experience of this misconception and show Scrum Masters how to transform the Daily Scrum into a purposeful and collaborative planning session led by the Developers, for the Developers. You’ll learn how to get your Daily Scrum under control and discover new approaches to encourage productivity, accountability and collective ownership as well as Daily Scrum formats that encourage teamwork. Finally, Brian and Julie dive deep into the struggles brought by remote working and the many alternatives to tackle this issue. Listen now to discover: - 02:00 - The purpose of the daily scrum and common misconceptions - 11:00 - How to use the sprint backlog to prioritize work - 00:12 - The importance of teamwork and striving for smaller stories that flow - 14:56 - How to encourage developers to take ownership of the Daily Scrum - 00:20 - Suggestions for Daily Scrum formats to encourage teamwork - 00:22 - When to update items on the Sprint Backlog to benefit the Daily Scrum meeting - 00:25 - How to encourage accountability and collective ownership of work - 00:27 - How to monitor and assess unplanned work and forecast velocity - 00:35 - Guidelines for problem identification and problem solving during the Daily Scrum - 00:38 - How to adapt the Daily Scrum for distributed teams in a remote world - 00:44 - The benefits of cross training - 00:45 - The 16th minute concept - 00:47 - Ken Schwaber’s clockwise scrum methodology Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Julie joins Brian again to explain the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. References and resources mentioned in the show · Agile Project Management with Scrum by Ken Schwaber · The Scrum Guide Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. · Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. · Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.

This week, Brian Milner is joined by Julie Chickering to talk about the best practices and common pitfalls to avoid during the Daily Scrum event. Overview Brian Milner and Julie Chickering discuss the true purpose of the Daily Scrum and how to make this 15-minute meeting more efficient. According to the Scrum Guide, the Daily Scrum is to inspect progress towards the Sprint Goal, synchronize activities, and create a plan for the next 24 hours. Debunking the myth that “The Daily Scrum is a Status Meeting”, Julie and Brian share their first-hand experience of this misconception and show Scrum Masters how to transform the Daily Scrum into a purposeful and collaborative planning session led by the Developers, for the Developers. You’ll learn how to get your Daily Scrum under control and discover new approaches to encourage productivity, accountability and collective ownership as well as Daily Scrum formats that encourage teamwork. Finally, Brian and Julie dive deep into the struggles brought by remote working and the many alternatives to tackle this issue. Listen now to discover: - 02:00 - The purpose of the daily scrum and common misconceptions - 11:00 - How to use the sprint backlog to prioritize work - 00:12 - The importance of teamwork and striving for smaller stories that flow - 14:56 - How to encourage developers to take ownership of the Daily Scrum - 00:20 - Suggestions for Daily Scrum formats to encourage teamwork - 00:22 - When to update items on the Sprint Backlog to benefit the Daily Scrum meeting - 00:25 - How to encourage accountability and collective ownership of work - 00:27 - How to monitor and assess unplanned work and forecast velocity - 00:35 - Guidelines for problem identification and problem solving during the Daily Scrum - 00:38 - How to adapt the Daily Scrum for distributed teams in a remote world - 00:44 - The benefits of cross training - 00:45 - The 16th minute concept - 00:47 - Ken Schwaber’s clockwise scrum methodology Listen next time when we’ll be discussing... Julie joins Brian again to explain the true purpose of the Sprint Review and why it is a mistake to call this event a ‘demo’. References and resources mentioned in the show · Agile Project Management with Scrum by Ken Schwaber · The Scrum Guide Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. · Enjoyed what you heard today? It would be great if you left a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. · Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Julie Chickering is a certified Scrum Trainer as well as a CST, PMP, PMI-ACP CSM, CSPO, and Path to CSP Educator. She believes that Agile practices are packed with potential — to enable business agility, and breakthrough results. Julie loves to help people implement agile even when the environments are messy, people are complicated, and situations are challenging. She brings real-world experience working with people at all levels to adopt and roll out realistic Agile strategies organization-wide.