Podcasts about agilist

Elisabeth White, Millennial, is an Agile (and coffee) aficionado with a passion for people and transformation. She has spent the past fifteen years guiding organizations on incredible Agile journeys—focusing on continuous improvements within leadership, culture, people, and processes. Her contagious personality and collaborative work ethic complement many team and office environments. White is a CEO by title, coach by profession, facilitator by trade, and Agilist at heart. Born and raised in the great state of Colorado (Go Broncos!), White is saving the world, one Agile journey at a time!Here are the topics we covered:0:00 Introduction1:48 Women leadership & change3:26 Emotions of strength for women6:02 Self leadership13:45 Self-doubt15:17 Leading with denial, blame, or shame16:53 Difficult conversations20:42 Authentic personas24:24 Human-centric wheel36:21 20-something adviceMemorable Quotes“When you put chaos (happens in any change) and crazy (false narrative about women's emotions) together there's a of a fear factor.”“It's important that when we show up to lead, we are first leading ourselves.”“I know how to move through this, I know how to help us, and I'm going to do it with such empathy and such care, that we're going to wow the crowd!”“We have to help people turn their hands so they realize there's different perspectives than one.”“If I can't show up authentically then I need to lead myself to somewhere else where I can.”“Self-doubt will destroy careers instead “pause for the cause” and ask yourself: Do I have clear direction here?”“Who's driving the bus and where's the bus going? If it's self-doubt we need to stop the bus and get a new driver!”“Am I actually showing up with empathy? Am I actually showing up with care?”“How do you think you showed up and was the response you received in alignment with that?”Here are the 3 Takeaways:1. The fact that women are so in-tuned with their emotions actually is the “secret sauce” for leading change. You need to overcome the false narratives to move through that change in a way other leaders can't. Women bring empathy and innate ability to be caretakers. Change is often tough and this gives women an ability to navigate brilliantly.2. Leading ourselves requires us to show up with a level of confidence and self-esteem to demonstrate we know what we're doing and are great leaders. It starts first by leading ourselves and being authentic. And if that doesn't quite “fit” respond with: “You're welcomed; you probably need a different perspective and that's probably why I'm here.”3. When considering making decisions you can “pause for the cause” and ask yourself these questions:Do I have clear direction here?Do I understand the purpose I serve here?Do I like it and am I ok with this purpose?Do I understand the why I'm here?Do I have a clear and safe path to follow?Do I have people to walk that path with me?If you answer yes, then make sure it's not self-doubt driving those choices instead of self-leadership. It's important to check-in to see who is in the driver's seat. As Mentioned:Elisabeth's book release June 3rdPeople Do ChangeAvailable at Amazonhttps://www.amazon.com/Yo's Failure Resume:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WPCCRUYYZMyzhBvhBnzSguXFrmDOEdkOapF-5xUGnyI/edit?usp=sharingFree Offer/Training Courses:https://www.cornerstoneagility.com/people-do-change/Training schedule for my upcoming courses can be found on our website: https://www.cornerstoneagility.com/training/agile-training-calendar/Ways to follow/contact Elisabeth:info@cornerstoneagility.comWays to reach Yo:eMail yo@yocanny.com  Public FB group: Girl, Take the Lead!https://www.facebook.com/groups/272025931481748/?ref=shareLinktr.ee/yocannyIG:https://www.instagram.com/yocannyLinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/yocanny/

What does it really mean to have a bias toward action and how do you build that into your culture without skipping strategy? Boris Gloger joins Brian Milner for a deep dive on experimentation, leadership, and the difference between tactical work and true strategic thinking. Overview In this conversation, Brian welcomes longtime Scrum pioneer, consultant, and author Boris Gloger to explore the tension between planning and doing in Agile environments. Boris shares how a bias toward action isn’t about skipping steps—it’s about shortening the cycle between idea and feedback, especially when knowledge gaps or fear of mistakes create inertia. They unpack why experimentation is often misunderstood, what leaders get wrong about failure, and how AI, organizational habits, and strategy-as-practice are reshaping the future of Agile work. References and resources mentioned in the show: Boris Gloger LinkedIn Leaders Guide to Agile eBook Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Boris Gloger is a pioneering agile strategist and Germany’s first Certified Scrum Trainer, known for shaping how organizations across Europe approach transformation, strategy, and sustainable leadership. As founder of borisgloger consulting, he helps teams and executives navigate complexity—blending modern management, ethical innovation, and even AI—to make agility actually work in the real world. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one, the only Mr. Boris Glogger with us. Welcome in Boris. Boris Gloger (00:11) Yeah, thank you, Eurobrein, for having me on your show. Brian Milner (00:14) Very excited to have Boris here. For those of you who haven't crossed paths with Boris, Boris has been involved in the Scrum movement, I would say, since the very, very earliest days. He's a CST, he's a coach, he's an author, he's a keynote speaker. He had a book early called The Agile Fixed Price. He runs his own consultancy in Europe. And he has a new book that's been, that's going to be coming out soon called strategy as practice. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to have Boris on is because there's kind of this topic area that's been percolating that I've heard people talk about quite often. And I see some confused looks when the, when the topic comes up, you hear this term about having a bias toward action. And, we just wanted to kind of dive into that a little bit about what that means to have a bias toward action. and really how we can apply that to what we do in our day-to-day lives. So let's start there, Boris. When you hear that term, having a bias toward action, what does that mean to you? Boris Gloger (01:12) The fun thing is I was always in tune with the idea because people said my basic mantra at the beginning of doing agile was doing as a way of thinking. So the basic idea of agile for me was always experimentation, trying things out, breaking rules, not for the sake of breaking rules, but making to create a new kind of order. the basic idea is like we had with test-driven development at the beginning of all these agile approaches and we said, yeah, we need to test first and then we have the end in our mind, but we don't know exactly how to achieve that. So there is this kind of bias towards action. That's absolutely true. On the other hand, what I've always found fascinating was that even the classical project management methodologies said, Yeah, you have to have a plan, but the second step is to revise that plan. And that was always this, do we plan planning and reality together? And actually for me at the beginning, 35 years ago, was exactly that kind of really cool blend of being able to have a great vision and people like Mike and all these guys, they had always said, we need to have that kind of a vision, we need to know. Yeah, if the product owner was exactly that idea, you have to have that vision, but you really need to get the nitty-gritty details of, so to say, of doing this stuff. Brian Milner (02:40) Yeah, that's awesome. And the thing that kind of always pops to my head when I think about this is, we hear this term bias toward action and there's sort of this balance, I think a little bit between planning and action, right? I mean, you wanna plan, you wanna plan well, but you don't wanna over plan. You don't wanna waste too much time trying to come up with a perfect plan. You wanna... you want to do things, but you also don't want to be, you don't want to rush into things. So how do people find that balance between not just, you know, going off, you know, like we say in the U S half cocked a little bit, you know, like just not, not really not ready to really do the thing that you're going to do. Cause you didn't really invest the time upfront, but on the other hand, not spending so much time that you're trying to get the perfect plan before you do anything. Boris Gloger (03:28) You know, the problem, for me, the issue was solved by when I figured out that the teams typically struggle not to achieve, for instance, the sprint goal or the end or whatever they wanted to accomplish when they have not the right know-how. So it's a knowledge problem. So for instance, I don't know if this is still the case, but sometimes developers say, need to... to immerse myself with that I need to figure that out. I need to get the new framework before I can do something about estimates or something. So whenever you hear that, that you know that person that just tries to give you an estimate or the team that would like to come into a sprint goal or whatever it is, they are not really knowing what topic is about. It's a knowledge gap. And then people tend to go into that analysis paralysis problem. They don't know exactly what they need to do. So therefore they need to investigate. But by doing investigation, you start making that big elephant in the corner, larger and larger and larger and larger because you go that ishikara diagram, you have too many options. It's like playing chess with all options at hand and not have enough experience. What kind of gambit you would like to do. So everything's possible and by, because you have not enough experience, you say everything's possible, that creates too much of a planning hassle. And Agile, is the funny thing is, made us very transparent by just saying, okay, let's spend maybe two weeks. And then we figured out two weeks is too much. So let's do a spike, then we call it a spike. The basic idea was always to have a very short time frame, timeline where we try to bring our know-how to a specific problem, try to solve it as fast as possible. And the funny thing was actually was, as if I I confess myself that I don't know everything, or anything, sorry, that I don't know anything, then I could say, I give me a very short timeline, I could say I spend an hour. And today we have chat, CVT and perplexity and all that stuff. And then we could say, okay, let's spend an hour observation, but then we need to come up with a better idea of what we are talking about. So we can shorten the time cycle. So whenever I experienced teams or even organizations, when they start getting that planning in place, we have a knowledge problem. And a typical that is, is, or the classical mindset always says, okay, then we need to plan more. We need to make that upfront work. For instance, we need to have backlogs and we need to know all these features, even if we don't know what kind of features our client really would like to have. And the actual software problem is saying, okay, let's get out with something that we can deliver. And then we get feedback. And if we understand that our kind of the amount of time we spend is as cheap as possible. So like we use the tools that we have. We used to know how that we have. We try to create something that we can achieve with what we can do already, then we can improve on that. And then we can figure out, we don't know exactly what we might need to have to do more research or ask another consultant or bring in friends from another team to help us with that. Brian Milner (06:46) It's, sounds like the there's a, there's a real, kind of focus then from, from what I'm hearing from you, like a real focus on experimentation and, you know, that, that phrase we hear a lot failing fast, that kind of thing. So how, do you cultivate that? How do you, how do you get the organization to buy in and your team to buy into that idea of. Let's experiment, let's fail fast. And, and, we'll learn more from, from doing that than just, you know, endlessly planning. Boris Gloger (07:12) I think the URCHAR community made a huge mistake of embracing this failure culture all the time. We always tell we need to call from failure because we are all ingrained in a culture in the Western society at least, where we learned through school our parents that making failures is not acceptable. Brian Milner (07:18) Ha ha. Boris Gloger (07:32) And I came across Amy Atkinson and she did a great book to make clear we need to talk about failures and mistakes in a very different kind of way. We need to understand that there are at least three kinds of mistakes that are possible. One is the basic mistake, like a spelling error or you have a context problem in a specific program that you write or you... You break something because you don't know exactly how strong your material is. That is basic mistake. You should know that. That's trainable. The other is the kind of error that you create because the problem you try to solve has too many variables. So that's a complicated problem. You can't foresee all aspects that might happen in future. So typical an airplane is crashing. So you have covered everything you know so far. But then there's some specific problem that nobody could foresee. That's a failure. But it's not something that you can foresee. You can't prevent that. You try to prevent as best as possible. And that's even not an accepted mistake because sometimes people die and you really would like to go against it. So that's the second kind of mistakes you don't like to have. We really like to get out of the system. And then there's a third way kind of mistakes. And that is exactly what we need to have. We need to embrace that experimentation and even experimentation. mean, I started physics in school and in university and an experimental physicists. He's not running an experiment like I just throw a ball around and then I figure out what happens. An experiment is a best guess. You have a theory behind it. You believe that what you deliver or that you try to find out is the best you try to do. The Wright brothers missed their first airplane. I mean, they didn't throw their airplane in the balloon. Then it gets destroyed. They tried whatever they believed is possible. But then you need to understand as a team, as an organization, we have never done this before, so it might get broken. We might learn. For instance, we had once a project where we worked with chemists 10 years ago to splice DNA. So we wanted to understand how DNA is written down in the DNA sequence analyzer. And I needed to understand that we had 90 scientists who created these chemicals to be able to that you can use that in that synthesizer to understand how our DNA is mapped out. And we first need to understand one sprint might get results that 99 of our experience will fail. But again, management said we need to be successful. Yeah, but what is the success in science? I mean, that you know this route of action is not working, right? And that is the kind of failure that we would like to have. And I believe our Agile community need to tell that much more to our clients. It's not like, we need to express failure. No, we don't need to embrace failure. We don't want to have mistakes and we don't want to have complicated issues that might lead to the destroying of our products. need on the other hand, the culture, the experimentation to figure out something that nobody knows so far is acceptable, it's necessary. And then, edge our processes help us again by saying, okay, we can shorten the frame, we can shorten the time frame so that we can create very small, tiny experiments so that in case we are mistaken, Not a big deal. That was the basic idea. Brian Milner (11:04) That's a great point. That's really a great point because you're right. It's not failure in general, right? There are certain kinds of failures that we definitely want to avoid, but there's failure as far as I run an experiment. at that point, that's where we start to enter into this dialogue of it's not really a failure at that point. If you run an experiment and it doesn't turn out the way you expected, it's just an experiment that didn't turn out the way you expected. Boris Gloger (11:30) Basically, every feature we create in software or even in hardware, we have never done it before. So the client or our customers can't use it so far because it's not there. So now we ship it to the client and then he or she might not really use it the way that we believe it is. Is it broken? it a mistake? It was not a mistake. It was an experiment and now we need to adapt on it. And if we can create a system, that was all that was agile, I think was a bot. On very first start, if we can create a system that gives us feedback early. then that guessing can't be so much deviation or say in a different way, our investment in time and material and costs and money and is shortened as much as possible. So we have very small investments. Brian Milner (12:13) Yeah, that's awesome. I'm kind of curious too, because, you know, we, we, we've talked a little bit at the beginning about how, you know, this is part of this bias towards action as part of this entrepreneurial kind of mindset. And I'm curious in your, experience and your consultants experience that you've worked with big companies and small companies, have you noticed a difference in sort of that bias toward action? Uh, you know, that, that kind of. is represented in a different way in a big company versus a more small startup company. Boris Gloger (12:48) The funny thing is I don't believe it's a problem of large corporations or small, tiny little startups, even if we would say that tiny little startups are more in tune in making experiments. It's really a kind of what is my mindset, and the mindset is a strange word, but what is my basic habit about how to embrace new things. What is the way I perceive the world? Every entrepreneur who tries to create it or say it different way, even entrepreneurs nowadays need to create business plans. The basic ideas I can show to investors, everything is already mapped out. I have already clients. I have a proven business model. That is completely crazy because If it were a proof business model, someone else would have already done it, right? So obviously you need to come up with the idea that a kind of entrepreneur mindset is a little bit like I try to create something that is much more interesting to phrase it this way. by creating something, it's like art. You can't, can't... Plan art, I mean, it's impossible. I mean, you might have an idea and you might maybe someone who's writing texts or novels might create a huge outline. But on the other hand, within that outline, he needs to be creative again. And someone will say, I just start by getting continuous feedback. It's always the same. You need to create something to be able to observe it. that was for me, for me, that was the epiphany or the idea 25 years ago was, I don't know what your background is, but I wasn't a business analyst. Business analysts always wanted to write documents that the developer can really implement, right? And then we figured out you can't write down what you need to implement. There's no way of writing requirements in the way that someone else can build it. That's impossible. And even philosophers figure that out 100 years ago is written, Shanti said, you can't tell people what is the case. It's impossible. So, but what you can do, you can create something and you can have it in your review. And then you can start discussing about what you just created. And then you create a new result based on your observations and the next investment that you put in that. And then you create the next version of your product, your feature, your service, et cetera. Brian Milner (15:12) Hmm. Boris Gloger (15:25) And when we came back to the entrepreneur mindset and starting companies, Greaves created exactly that. He said, okay, let's use scrum to come up with as much possibilities for experimentation. And then we will see if it works. Then we can go on at that. And large corporations typically, They have on the one hand side, have too much money. And by having too much money, you would like to get an investment and they have a different problem. Typically large corporations typically needs to, they have already a specific margin with their current running products. And if you come up with a new business feature product, you might not get that as that amount of of revenue or profitability at the beginning. And therefore, can't, corporations have the problem that they have already running business and they are not seeing that they need to spend much, much more money on these opportunities. And maybe over time, that opportunity to make money and that's their problem. So this is the issue. It's not about entrepreneurial mindsets, it's about that. problem that you are not willing to spend that much money as long as you make much more money, it's the same amount of time on your current business. It happens even to myself, We are running a consulting company in Germany and Austria, and Austria is much smaller than Germany's tenth of the size. And if you spend one hour of sales in Austria, you don't make that much money in Austria than you make in Germany. this investment of one hour. Where should you focus? You will always focus on Germany, of course. means obvious. Brian Milner (17:08) Yeah. Yeah. Boris Gloger (17:10) Does it make sense? Maybe I'm running so. Brian Milner (17:14) No, that makes sense. That makes sense entirely. And so I'm kind of curious in this conversation about action and having a bias toward action then, what do you think are some of the, in your experience in working with companies, what have you seen as sort of the common obstacles or barriers, whether that be psychological or. organizational, what do you find as the most common barriers that are preventing people from having that bias toward action? Boris Gloger (17:44) the they are they are afraid of the of that of tapping into the new room endeavor. So that was always my blind spot because I'm an entrepreneur. I love to do new things. I just try things out. If I've either reading a book, and there's a cool idea, I try to what can happen. But we are not And most organizations are not built that way that they're really willing to, when most people are not good in just trying things out. And most people would really like to see how it's done. And most people are not good in... in that have not the imagination what might be possible. That's the we always know that product adoption curve, that the early adopters, the fast followers, the early minority, the late minority. And these inventors or early adopters, they are the ones who can imagine there might be a brighter future if I try that out. And the other ones are the ones who need to see that it is successful. And so whenever you try implementing Scrum or design thinking or mob programming or I don't whatever it is, you will always have people who say it's not possible because I don't have, haven't seen it before. And I sometimes I compare that with how to how kids are learning. Some kids are learning because they see how what is happening. They just mirroring what they see. And some kids are start to invent the same image in imagination. And but both that we are all of us are able to do both. It's not like I'm an imaginary guy who's inventing all the time and I don't, people, maybe there's a preference and the organizations have the same preference. But typically that's the problem that I see in organizations is based on our society and our socialization, on our business behaviors and maybe the pressure of large corporations and all that peer pressure is Brian Milner (19:34) Yeah. Yeah. Boris Gloger (19:54) The willingness to give people the room to try something out is the problem. Well, not the problem, it's the hinders us of being more innovative in organizations. Brian Milner (19:59) Yeah. Yeah. Well, that brings to mind a good question then too, because this experimentation mindset is very, very much a cultural kind of aspect of an organization, which speaks to leadership. And I'm kind of curious from your perspective, if you're a leader, what kind of things can you do as a leader to encourage, foster, of really nurture? that experimentation mindset in your organization. Boris Gloger (20:34) Let's have a very simple example. Everybody of us now maybe have played with chat, CPT, Suno, perplexity and so on. So that's the school AI technology around the corner. And what happens now in organizations is exactly what happens 30 years ago when the internet came here. You have leadership or managers who say, that's a technology, I give it to the teams, they can figure out whatever that is. And the funny thing is, if you have a technology that will change the way we behave, so it's a social technology, a kind of shift, then I need to change my behavior, I need to change the way I do I'm doing things. Yeah, everybody of us has now an iPhone or an Android or whatever it is, but but we are using our mobiles in a completely different way than 30 years ago. And to lead us and manage us, we need to train ourselves first before we can help our teams to change. So the problem is that Again, a lot of Agilist talks about we need, first we need to change the culture of organizations to be able to do Agile and so on and so on. That's complete nonsense. But what we really need to is we need to have managers, team leads, it with team leads, to help them to do the things themselves because Agile, even in the beginning, now it's technology change, now it's AI, is something that changes the way we do our stuff. It's kind of habit. And we need to help them to seize themselves. Maybe they can only seize themselves by doing that stuff. And that goes back to my belief that leadership needs to know much more about the content of their teams and the way these teams can perform their tasks and the technology that is around to be able to thrive in organizations. Brian Milner (22:40) Yeah. Yeah. I love this discussion and I love that you brought up, you know, AI and how that's affecting things here as well. how do you think that's having a, do you think that's making it easier, harder? How do you think AI is, is kind of influencing this bias toward action mentality? Boris Gloger (22:59) Yeah, it depends on if you are able to play. mean, because the funny thing is, it's a new kind of technology. really knows what all these tools can do by themselves. And it's new again. It's not like I have done AI for the next last 10 years and I know exactly what's possible. So we need to play. So you need to log in to adjust it. Yesterday, I tried something on Zulu. I created the company song in 10 seconds. I went to ChatGVT, I said I need a song, I need lyrics for a company song. These are the three words I would like to have, future, Beurus Kluger, and it needs to be that kind of mood. ChatGVT created the song for my lyrics, then they put the lyrics into the... And they created a prompt with ChatGVT and then put that prompt in my lyrics into Sono and Sono created that song within 10 seconds. I mean, it's not get the Grammy. Okay. It's not the Grammy. But it was, I mean, it's, it's, it's okay. Yeah. It's a nice party song. And now, and just playing around. And that is what I would like to see in organizations, that we start to play around with these kind of technologies and involve everybody. But most people, the very discussions that I had in the last couple of weeks or months was about these tools shall do the job exactly the same way as it is done today. So it's like... I create that kind of report. Now I give that to Chet Chibati and Chet Chibati shall create that same report again. That is nonsense. It's like doing photography in the old days, black and white. And now I want to have photography exactly done the same way with my digital camera. And what happened was we used the digital cameras changed completely the way we create photography and art. changed completely, right? And that is the same thing we need to do with ChatGV team. And we need to understand that we don't know exactly how to use it. And then we can enlarge and optimize on one hand the way we are working, for instance, creating 20 different versions for different social media over text or something like that, or 20 new pictures. But if I would like to express myself, so, and... and talk about my own behavior or my own team dynamic and what is the innovation in ourselves, then we need to do ourselves. And we can use, that is the other observation that we made. The funny thing that goes back to the knowledge issue, the funny thing is that teams typically say, I don't know if it's in the US, but at least in my experience, that we still have the problem within teams. that people believe this is my know-how and that is your know-how and I'm a specialist in X or Y set. So they can't talk to each other. But if you use maybe chat GPT and all these tools now, they can bridge these know-how gaps using these tools. And suddenly they can talk to each other much faster. So they get more productive. It's crazy. It's not like I'm now a fool with a tool. I can be a fool and the tool might help me to overcome my knowledge gaps. Brian Milner (26:20) Now this is awesome. I know that your book that's coming out, Strategy is Practice, talks about a lot of these things. Tell us a little bit about this book and kind of what the focus is. Boris Gloger (26:30) the basic idea when I started doing working on the on strategies, we be in the the actual community, we talk about strategy as what is a new idea of being OKR. So OKR equals strategy, and that is not true. And I came up with this basic idea, what is the basic problem of of strategic thinking and we are back to the in most organizations, we still believe strategy is the planning part and then we have an implementation part. And years ago, I came across a very basic, completely different idea that said every action is strategy. Very simple example. You have the strategy in a company that you have a high price policy. Everything you do is high price. But then you are maybe in a situation where you really need money, effort, revenue issues, liquidation, liquidation problems. Then you might reduce your price. And that moment, your strategy is gone. just your obviously and you have now a new strategy. So your actions and your strategies always in line. So it's not the tactic for the strategy, but tactic is strategy. And now we are back to Azure. So now we can say, okay, we need kind of a long-term idea. And now we can use for creating the vision. For instance, you list the V2MOM framework for creating your vision. But now I need to have a possibility to communicate my strategic ideas. And in the Azure community, we know how to do this. We have plannings and we have dailies and we have reviews and retrospectives. So now I can use all these tools. I can use from the bookshelf of Azure tools. I can use maybe OKRs to create a continuous cycle of innovation or communication so that I get that everybody knows now what is the right strategy. And I can feed back with the reviews to management. that the strategy approach might not work that way that they believed it's possible experimentation. And then and I added two more ideas from future insight or strategic foresight, some other people call it. So the basic idea is, how can I still think about the future in an not in the way of that I have a crystal ball. But I could say, how can I influence the future, but I can only influence the future if I have an idea what might be in future. It's like a scenario. Now you can create actions, power these kind of scenarios that you like, or what you need to prevent a specific scenario if you don't like that. And we need a third tool, that was borrowed from ABCD risk planning, was the basic idea, how can I get my very clear a very simple tool to get the tactics or the real environmental changes like suddenly my estimates might not be correct anymore or my suggestions or beliefs about the future might not get true in the future. So I need kind of a system to feed back reality in my strategy. it's a little bit like reviewing all the time the environment. And if you put all that together, then you get a very nice frame how to use strategy on a daily practice. It's not like I do strategy and then have a five-year plan. No, you have to do continuously strategy. And I hope that this will help leaders to do strategy. I mean, because most leaders don't do strategy. They do tactic kind of work. and they don't spend They don't spend enough time in the trenches. to enrich their strategies and their thinking and their vision. because they detach strategy and implementation all the time. That's the basic idea. Brian Milner (30:30) That's awesome. That sounds fascinating. And I can't wait to read that. That sounds like it's going to be a really good book. So we'll make sure that we have links in our show notes to that if anyone wants to find out more information about that or learn more from Boris on this topic. Boris, can't thank you enough for making time for coming on. This has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you for coming on the show. Boris Gloger (30:40) Yeah. Yeah, thank you very much for having me on your show and appreciate that your time and your effort here. Make a deal for the, it's very supporting for the agile community. Thank you for that. Brian Milner (30:57) Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Wenn in Produktteams das Verständnis fehlt, reden Menschen oft aneinander vorbei. Und manchmal reichen ein Stift und ein Flipchart, um das zu ändern. Olaf Bublitz kennt diese Situationen gut. Als erfahrener Agilist, Berater und Mitautor des neuen Buchs Visual Product Ownership setzt er sich seit Jahren dafür ein, visuelle Methoden in der Produktentwicklung gezielter und wirkungsvoller einzusetzen. In dieser Folge spricht er mit Tim über die Kraft der Visualisierung. Nicht als Deko oder hübsches Extra, sondern als echte Unterstützung für Klarheit, Zusammenarbeit und Entscheidungsfindung. Denn visuelle Methoden in der Produktentwicklung helfen dabei, komplexe Zusammenhänge sichtbar zu machen – über alle Ebenen hinweg: von der Strategie bis zur operativen Umsetzung. Olaf versteht unter visuellen Methoden nicht nur Zeichnungen oder Sketchnotes. Für ihn beginnt visuelles Arbeiten schon mit einem Canvas, einem Taskboard oder einer Map. Sobald Informationen so aufbereitet sind, dass man sie auf einen Blick erfassen und besprechen kann, entsteht ein gemeinsamer Fokus. Und genau darum geht es in der Produktentwicklung: Orientierung schaffen und Diskussion ermöglichen – ohne sich in Textwüsten zu verlieren. Viele der Methoden, die Olaf beschreibt, helfen dabei, Perspektiven nebeneinander sichtbar zu machen. Ob Eventstorming, Story Mapping oder Strategy Maps: Sie bringen Teams ins Gespräch – und lassen Unterschiede, Lücken oder Missverständnisse frühzeitig erkennen. Genau das ist der eigentliche Mehrwert. Denn visuelle Methoden in der Produktentwicklung machen nicht nur Dinge sichtbar. Sie machen Zusammenarbeit möglich. Es geht nicht darum, möglichst viele Methoden zu nutzen, sondern diese passenden auszuwählen – je nach Kontext, Ziel und Team. In seinem Buch fasst Olaf über 50 bewährte Methoden zusammen und stellt sie in sogenannten Strings dar: sinnvolle Verbindungen von Methoden entlang typischer Fragestellungen in der Produktentwicklung. So entstehen keine isolierten Visualisierungen, sondern ein durchgängiger visueller Arbeitsraum. Besonders spannend wird es, wenn Teams ihre gesamte Produktarbeit sichtbar machen – etwa in Form eines sogenannten "Obeya"-Raums. Olaf beschreibt, wie visuelle Methoden in der Produktentwicklung dabei helfen, verschiedene Ebenen miteinander zu verbinden: Ziele, Kennzahlen, Roadmaps, Backlogs, Abhängigkeiten. Alles sichtbar, strukturiert und zugänglich – ob physisch im Raum oder digital auf einem Miro-Board. Was zählt, ist der gemeinsame Blick. Die Folge ist eine Einladung: Visualisierung nicht als Stilmittel zu sehen, sondern als praktisches Werkzeug. Wer damit beginnt, kleine Elemente sichtbar zu machen – ein Ablauf, eine Idee, ein Engpass – schafft einen Einstieg. Und wer als Produktteam konsequent mit visuellen Methoden arbeitet, verändert nicht nur die Art, wie Entscheidungen getroffen werden. Sondern auch die Qualität der Zusammenarbeit. Frühere Folgen die zum Thema gut passen bzw. in der Episode genannt wurden: - Visual Leadership für Product Owner mit Sabina Lammert - Klarheit als Superpower für Produktmenschen mit Arne Kittler - Event Storming: Verständnis für komplexe Produkte schaffen mit Jürgen Meurer - Nutze Story Mapping, um mit Stakeholdern über Outcome zu sprechen - Wardley Mapping - Produktstrategie wie ein Schachspiel mit Florian Meyer - Impact Mapping - was zahlt wirklich auf unser Business Ziel ein? mit Büşra Coşkuner - Assumption Mapping Wer mit Olaf Bublitz in Kontakt treten möchte, erreicht ihn gut über sein LinkedIn-Profil. Die Website zum Buch findet ihr unter: visual-productownership.de. Welche visuellen Methoden nutzt ihr in der Produktentwicklung – und was funktioniert bei euch besonders gut? Wir Produktwerker freuen uns, wenn du deine Tipps und Erfahrungen aus der Praxis mit den anderen Hörerinnen und Hörern teilen möchtest. Hinterlasse gerne einen Kommentar unterm Blog-Artikels oder auf unserer Produktwerker LinkedIn-Seite.

In this episode of #AgileWay podcast, I have a conversation with one of the speakers of the Agile Prague Conference that is going to be on Sep 15-16, 2025 in Prague, Czech Republic. We talked with Nikola Vojtek about AI, teams, value, and the business simulation board game Agilist he co-created. #agile #businessagility #agileleader #leadership #agileprague #confernece #AI #game #agilist 

"We are 100% convinced that IT sustainability matters but we can't add more non business requirements, we have agile teams." This often heard sentence from product managers or CPOs, led to this dedicated episode on agility and sustainability where host Gaël Duez welcomes 2 seasoned agile coaches: Joanne Stone, the founder of Agilist 4 planet and the We Hope Magazine, and Joanna Masraff, co-organiser of the the Agilists4Sustainability meetup group, and the Agilists4Planet conference. In this interview, filled with positive energy, they covered:

In this episode of the Agilists: Aspire and Achieve In Your Career video podcast series, we dive into the art of making your coaching stick and what it means to be truly effective in your Agile role. We'll explore how to show your value as an Agilist, maintain your confidence, and keep evolving in a world where Agile can become status quo. Join us as we unpack strategies for staying relevant, pushing the envelope, and sustaining not just teams, but your own career.   About the Featured Guest Follow Jess Brock on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicalynnbrock/) The Women in Agile community champions inclusion and diversity of thought, regardless of gender, and this podcast is a platform to share new voices and stories with the Agile community and the business world, because we believe that everyone is better off when more, diverse ideas are shared. Podcast Library: www.womeninagile.org/podcast Women in Agile Org Website: www.womeninagile.org  Connect with us on social media! LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/womeninagile/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninagile/ Twitter: www.twitter.com/womeninagileorg  Please take a moment to rate and review the Women in Agile podcast on your favorite podcasting platform. This is the best way to help us amplify the voices and wisdom of the talent women and allies in our community! Be sure to take a screenshot of your rating and review and post it on social media with the hashtag #womeninagile to help spread the word and continue to elevate Women in Agile. About our Host Emily Lint is a budding industry leader in the realm of business agility. Energetic and empathetic she leverages her knowledge of psychology, business, technology, and mindfulness to create a cocktail for success for her clients and peers. Her agile journey officially started in 2018 with a big move from Montana to New Mexico going from traditional ITSM and project management methodologies to becoming an agile to project management translator for a big government research laboratory. From then on she was hooked on this new way of working. The constant innovation, change, and retrospection cured her ever present craving to enable organizations to be better, do better, and provide an environment where her co-workers could thrive.    Since then she has started her own company and in partnership with ICON Agility Services serves, coaches, and trains clients of all industries in agile practices, methodologies, and most importantly, mindset. Please check out her website (www.lintagility.com) to learn more. You can also follow Emily on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilylint/).    About our Sponsor Scrum.org is the Home of Scrum, founded in 2009 by Scrum co-creator Ken Schwaber focused on helping people and teams solve complex problems by improving how they work through higher levels of professionalism. Scrum.org provides free online resources, consistent experiential live training, ongoing learning paths, and certification for people with all levels of Scrum knowledge. You can learn more about the organization by visiting www.scrum.org.

On this episode of the Women in Agile podcast, Emily Lint sits down with Paula Susman to discuss people managers and agile transformations; what is and is not necessary as an Agilist to help managers transform and how do you set yourself and managers or leaders up for success in the long run to let go of command-and-control. About the Featured Guest Paula Susman is an accomplished and solutions-driven Agile Coach with 8 years of multifaceted experience in Agile transformations, process improvement and team management. Proven track record of success in blending and building highly evolved teams with Agile approaches within the SDLC.  Follow Paula Susman on LinkedIn The Women in Agile community champions inclusion and diversity of thought, regardless of gender, and this podcast is a platform to share new voices and stories with the Agile community and the business world, because we believe that everyone is better off when more, diverse ideas are shared. Podcast Library: www.womeninagile.org/podcast Women in Agile Org Website: www.womeninagile.org    Connect with us on social media! LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/womeninagile/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninagile/ Twitter: www.twitter.com/womeninagileorg  Please take a moment to rate and review the Women in Agile podcast on your favorite podcasting platform. This is the best way to help us amplify the voices and wisdom of the talent women and allies in our community! Be sure to take a screenshot of your rating and review and post it on social media with the hashtag #womeninagile to help spread the word and continue to elevate Women in Agile.   About our Host Emily Lint is a budding industry leader in the realm of business agility. Energetic and empathetic she leverages her knowledge of psychology, business, technology, and mindfulness to create a cocktail for success for her clients and peers. Her agile journey officially started in 2018 with a big move from Montana to New Mexico going from traditional ITSM and project management methodologies to becoming an agile to project management translator for a big government research laboratory. From then on she was hooked on this new way of working. The constant innovation, change, and retrospection cured her ever present craving to enable organizations to be better, do better, and provide an environment where her co-workers could thrive.  Since then she has started her own company and in partnership with ICON Agility Services serves, coaches, and trains clients of all industries in agile practices, methodologies, and most importantly, mindset. Please check out her website (www.lintagility.com) to learn more. You can also follow Emily on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilylint/).    About our Sponsor Scrum.org is the Home of Scrum, founded in 2009 by Scrum co-creator Ken Schwaber focused on helping people and teams solve complex problems by improving how they work through higher levels of professionalism. Scrum.org provides free online resources, consistent experiential live training, ongoing learning paths, and certification for people with all levels of Scrum knowledge. You can learn more about the organization by visiting www.scrum.org.

Ville Reijonen: Overcoming the Part-Time Product Owner Trap The Bad Product Owner: The Part-Time PO Disaster Ville describes a scenario where a company assigned a part-time Product Owner (PO) to manage software development. The PO's inconsistent availability led to poor communication and a lack of feedback loops. Ville explains how this anti-pattern can derail a project and shares tips, such as scheduling regular meetings to ensure that the PO remains actively involved in supporting the team. A strong PO presence is crucial for maintaining alignment and driving product success, and Ville discusses some possible mitigating actions we can take to make sure that even part-time PO's are available for the team. Reflection Question: How can you support a Product Owner who struggles with availability to ensure your team gets the guidance they need? The Great Product Owner: The Master Communicator In contrast, Ville shares an example of an exceptional PO who excelled at communication and collaboration. This PO consistently collected and shared feedback, held regular one-on-one meetings, and fostered a culture of transparency and understanding. Ville emphasizes that a great PO proactively builds relationships and maintains a consistent cadence of interactions to stay informed and guide the team effectively. Self-reflection Question: How can you support your PO so that they learn to communicate and engage with the team better?  [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Ville Reijonen: How To Use Agile Retrospectives To Help Teams Focus On Continuous Growth For Ville, true success as a Scrum Master is achieved when the team and the PO can independently manage their development process. He shares how he tracks team progress, conducts one-on-ones to provide tailored support, and uses subtle nudges to guide the team toward autonomy. Ville emphasizes the importance of understanding where individuals are in their learning journey and helping them achieve their goals by continuously assessing and adjusting support strategies. Self-reflection Question: What steps can you take to help your team become more self-sufficient? Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Spider Web Games Ville highlights the use of spider web graphs (aka radar graphs) as a way for teams to reflect on their progress in different areas. This format creates a visual representation of strengths and areas for improvement. Ville explains how role-playing and simulation games can foster team cohesion and help teams identify behaviors that can be applied to their daily work. By engaging in playful yet insightful activities, teams can foster collaboration and enhance retrospectives. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Ville Reijonen: Why Organizational And Scrum Patterns Are Essential for Leading Change Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Ville shares how patterns provide a structured approach to implementing change in organizations. During informal chats with colleagues before the pandemic, Ville would share useful patterns to build common understanding. He explains how patterns create a shared language that helps teams internalize concepts like Scrum roles and processes. Ville recommends ScrumBook.org as a resource for sharing patterns and insights with colleagues. By using patterns, Scrum Masters can foster more effective change processes and create a cohesive vision for their teams. Self-reflection Question: How do you use patterns to enhance your team's approach to change? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Ville Reijonen: Overcoming Code Ownership Silos in Agile Teams Ville describes a team that had divided code ownership, where members were reluctant to share or modify each other's work. This fostered fear, mistrust, and a defensive approach to development. Ville explains how this pattern of component segregation led to silos and distrust. He outlines actionable steps for rebuilding trust, such as adopting robust testing practices, implementing an internal open-source model, and encouraging ensemble programming. By fostering a culture of shared ownership, teams can collaborate more effectively and develop higher-quality software. Self-reflection Question: How can testing and collaboration frameworks help build trust within your team? Featured Book of the Week: “Innovation and Entrepreneurship” by Peter Drucker Ville recommends Peter Drucker's Innovation and Entrepreneurship, a timeless classic that provides a comprehensive understanding of the purpose of business—creating and retaining customers. Ville shares how this book, which he encountered during a case-study-based innovation course, shaped his approach to thinking about innovation in the big picture. He emphasizes how important it is for Scrum Masters to view their work through a broader lens to support product and customer success. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Ville Reijonen: Building Trust Between Teams and Product Owners During A Challenging Rewrite Project Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Ville shares a story from a full system rewrite project where conflicts between the Product Owner (PO) and the team created significant challenges. The lack of collaboration led to a stressful big-bang release with numerous post-launch issues. Ville explains how misaligned team dynamics can derail progress and highlights the importance of involving beta users and advocating for customer-centric testing. He also shares practical tips, such as engaging antagonistic testers to uncover potential flaws early and fostering PO-team collaboration to build trust and resilience. Self-reflection Question: How can you foster a culture of collaboration between the PO and the team to avoid conflicts during critical projects? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Curious about the future of Agile in 2025? Join Brian and Lance Dacy as they dive into the rise of AI, hyper-personalization, and how teams can balance innovation with customer focus. Plus, discover actionable insights to navigate a rapidly evolving landscape—don’t miss this forward-looking discussion! Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Lance set their sights on 2025, exploring how AI is transforming Agile practices and reshaping customer engagement. They discuss the shift from output to outcome metrics, the expansion of Agile beyond IT, and the critical role of leadership agility. With practical takeaways on fostering continuous learning and delivering real value, this episode equips teams and leaders to stay ahead in a fast-changing world. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lance Dacy Accurate Agile Planning Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Happy New Year's Agile Mentors. We are back and a very happy New Year's to everyone who's listening. Welcome back for another episode and another new year of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner, and we have our friend of the show for our annual kind of tradition now. We have Mr. Lance Dacey back with us. Welcome in, Lance. Lance Dacy (00:23) Thank you, Brian. Happy New Year to all of y'all. Happy to be setting this tradition. think it's two times now, so we'll just call it a tradition, but I love it. Thank you for having me. Brian (00:32) Very glad to have you here. The tradition we're referring to is that we like to take the first episode of the new year and just take a pause and kind of look ahead a little bit. What do we see coming up? What do we think this new year is going to be like? Obviously, it's a year of change. Here in the US, we'll have a new president that comes in. I'm not going to get into whether you like that or not, but it's new. It's going to be a change. There's going to be differences that take place. And I know there's a lot of differences and changes going on just in the way businesses operate and how things are run and lots of new technologies, lots of new trends. So we just thought we'd take a pause and kind of scan the horizon and maybe give you our take at least on what we're hearing and what we're seeing. And you can see if you agree with these or not. We'd love to hear from you in our discussion forum on the Agile Mentors Community afterwards if you have other thoughts or opinions on this. let's get into it. Let's start to talk about this. So Lance, I guess I'll start. I'll just turn it over to you and ask you that generalized question. Give me one point or one thing that you've been reading or seeing recently that you think is going to be a really important thing for us to kind of be prepared for or look out for here in 2025. Lance Dacy (01:44) Great question, Brian. There's so many things out there, and I thought we could start by looking back a little bit. if we're okay with that, just let's summarize, you what did we see happen in 2024? You mentioned, you know, 2025 is a year of change, absolutely, but 2024 was definitely a different kind of year as far as my experience is concerned and seeing a lot of industry trends that are just popping up out of nowhere. Now we are fans of agility, which means we embrace quick, efficient changes, but there's things going on in 2024 I never predicted Brian (01:52) Yeah, yeah. Lance Dacy (02:19) fast. And so I think we've got to reshape the way that we're thinking about these things. I think the topic of mind, one of the biggest shifts that I saw in 2024 that I think will continue in 2025 is AI. So that artificial intelligence is a big word that we keep lumping into a lot of things. And I just wanted to take a pause a little bit and say, I know everybody's got a little bit different experience about AI, but in particular, as it relates to product development and agile delivery, which is what this show is basically focused on, I thought we could look at some insights of what happened in 2024 with that. And so I think I call us babies at it right now. And I know that may be a bad term, but I have a lot of experience with AI and machine learning and things like that. But as far as the use of it, I feel like we're all a little bit more of babies on how to use it in the day-to-day work that we're trying to accomplish. And I think that comes with learning something. I embrace that. I don't mean that as a downplay, by the way, but that we're all babies. I'm just saying we're less mature about it. We're experimenting with a lot of things. And I don't think that some of the AI is all good. I I embrace it as a thing that's going to help us later on, but... I thought we could just share our experiences of how we've seen this thing manifest itself. I think tools like AI driven, I'm going to use the bad word JIRA, but in place of that, just use any product backlog management tool that you see. And I've seen a lot of organizations not just talk the game of, we use AI for our backlog management, but I'm talking about backlog prioritization, sprint planning capacity. And I believe what's happening is it frees teams up to do more of the... value driven work that we're going to see a lot more of in 2025. So what I mean by that is when we got automated testing and development, if you remember those days, it freed the developers up or the testers, should say, from doing less of the does this thing work to more of how does it feel using it as a human being, you know, automating that. So I've seen things like JIRA, with AI with JIRA and GitHub co-pilots, you know, reshaping the value creation in the teams and eliminating the need of having to do very low level tasks. So what is your thoughts on that and do you have any experiences of that as well? Brian (04:36) Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of things I've found that just kind of some stats I found from some different places. you know, listeners know I'm kind of like a data geek here. want to know where the data comes from and want to make sure it's a, yeah. Yeah. You want to make sure it's a solid source and it's not some questionable, you know, sketchy kind of, well, I asked 10 of my friends and here's the answer, you Right, right. Exactly. Lance Dacy (04:48) Good hand. I love that. or a FBI. Brian (05:02) But so there's a couple of things that came back. One was, I think Forrester is probably a pretty good source of information. They have some pretty good rigor to their process. And they have a thing that they put out every year. This one's just called the Developer Survey. And this is the one that they put out for 2024 that I'm quoting here. But a couple of stats from that that I found interesting. One was, 49 % of developers are expecting to use or are already using general AI assistance in their coding phase of software development, which, you know, maybe higher than most people might think. But it doesn't surprise me too much. I think that's probably kind of what I'm used to it. Understand saying, you know, an assistant co-pilot, that kind of thing. They're not saying 49 % have been replaced. They're saying 49 % are being assisted. by that and that seems about right. Maybe again, maybe a little higher than some might expect, but that seems like not too big of a shocker. Lance Dacy (06:04) Well, the animation too. So when you talk about assistance versus letting it run it, I saw a gentleman on LinkedIn, which is also a good. I wish we could interact more with our users on this call, because I'd love to hear their perspective. But I heard somebody say, let AI write my code. No, thank you. Code is like poetry. It has to be refined over time. It has humanistic qualities. And I was like, man, that's a really good point. But when I try to show my kids how to create a Ruby on Rails app to do an e-commerce site and I type it into chat GPT or whatever tool you use, I was amazed at how quickly it was able to put together. mean, you got to still know the file structures and things like that. But I don't know that developers are just going to say, I was going to write the whole thing. think they're, I think it's saving us keystrokes. I think we talked about that last time as well, but that's an interesting, interesting take. Brian (06:50) Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, I thought that was interesting. There was another, you know, I'm kind of, I'll move around between these two sources basically, but there's another source that I saw where there was a Harvard Business Review article. posted this on LinkedIn a while back, but it was a kind of the source of it was about a survey that they did to try to determine the impact on the job market. And one of the things they did was now their data was from July, 2021 to July, 2023. So this is a little bit older data, right? The survey was trying to say in analyzing the job postings on freelancer job sites specifically, and they tried to identify ones that might be affected by the advent of chat GPT, because that's the period where chat GPT really started to come onto the scene and started to become prevalent. And what they found was about a 21 % decrease in the weekly number of posts and what they call automation prone. Lance Dacy (07:35) Yeah. Brian (07:47) jobs compared to manually intensive jobs. They said riding jobs were affected the most 30.37 % decrease, followed up by software app and web development 20.62 % decrease and engineering 10.42 % decrease. But the interesting kind of thing is they found it kind of towards the end of that there was some increases and their kind of conclusion was that there was actually an increase in demand of the kinds of work that required human judgment and decision-making. And so that kind of ties back into what you were saying about let AI write my code whole, completely no, there's still a requirement for that human judgment and decision-making. I think this is why I'm not afraid of it, right? This is kind of, I don't want to make this an AI show, it's about the future in 2025, but when we had a... Lance Dacy (08:17) All right. Right. Brian (08:40) When we've had AI shows, that's one of the things I've said to the audience here is that I'm not so afraid of AI being sort of the doom and gloom of it's going to destroy profession or destroy. It's going to change it. But I don't think that's any different than any other. A great kind of analogy I make is when we started to have testing automation. It didn't do away with testers. This is just another tool that's going to be in our tool belt. Lance Dacy (08:51) Guy net. Brian (09:05) And I think our challenge is not to, you know, we're agilist, not to resist change, but to try to adapt, try to find ways that we can align and incorporate and get the most out of it. So, yeah. Lance Dacy (09:17) I think the most part of that though is, Brian, too, what most people fear. And I agree with you, we won't make it an AI show. just, we got a couple of points to make on this. But for the first time ever in human history, we now have something that might be more intelligent than us. And that is scary because there's some AI neural network engines that people can't explain how it's working anymore. They put it in place. And then it's like, we're not quite sure how it's doing all of this. And that's a scary thing, obviously, that can get out of control. We've never really had to face that. So we do have to be aware of that, but you know, let's go back and peel it back. Hey, we're, trying to plan a backlog with AI and we're trying to write a few Ruby on Rails code. I'm not letting it run my life yet. And one day it may already be doing that. I just don't even know it. I don't know. We won't get into that debate, but I think the thing is that we need to take pause of in the agile industry. is we embrace new technology as long as it's helping us deliver faster to our customers and save us time and efficiency. You know, I tell teams all the time, Agile is about delivering the highest business value items as early as possible with the least amount of cost friction, know, whatever word you want to use for that. Well, AI might help us do that, but I want to caution that. I think you and I were just talking about this. I wanted you to bring up that news story element that we were talking about. where people are just pushing content out there and kind of desensitizing us to is that important information or not? And I think AI needs to tag onto that. So I didn't know if you could share that real quick and then I want to share some metrics that I've seen some teams capture. There's a lot of teams now adopting these things called Dora metrics, which was created by a DevOps engineering group. And it's amazing to me now that we have real data to see, well, we have embraced AI. Brian (10:45) Sure. Lance Dacy (10:59) does do some things or not, I'd like to balance the good with the bad on that. But can you go over that new stuff that you were sharing with me? Brian (11:05) Yeah, no, it's just a conversation I've been having recently with people, they're friends of mine and kind of, you're probably feeling the same way about this in certain places, but the breaking news alerts that you get on your phone, you get those things all the time and I've had friends and I have discussions about maybe it's time to just turn them off. There's just so many breaking news alerts and that's kind of the issue, right? Is that there are so many that are now classified as Lance Dacy (11:23) Yeah. Brian (11:31) breaking news that you kind of look at that and say, this isn't really breaking news. You know, like if something really major happens, yeah, I want to know about that. I'd like to get an alert about something that's truly breaking news. the, you know, have major news sources, apps on my phone and get those breaking news alerts all the time. And some of them are just things that are minor, minor news that I would be much better served seeing in a summary and like a daily summary or even a weekly summary on some of the things. Right. Lance Dacy (11:50) Yeah. Or if at all, like you don't care about the sub undersecretary of Parks and Lighting in Minnetoca. You know, I don't know. It's just like, thank you for that information. But I totally agree that I feel like we're getting desensitized to a lot of these words, buzzwords, if you will. And we as humans are going to have to learn in this environment. And I'm trying to teach this with my kids as well, because they're the ones suffering the most from it. Brian (12:04) Right. Yeah. Lance Dacy (12:22) It's just inane information out there and you're filling your brains with the main things. So AI is great because it's allowing people to deliver more content, but is that content of substance or they just trying to market to you and get you, I forget the word you use for it, but, you know, keep you on a leash. Is that what you said? A small. Brian (12:42) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's kind of what we were saying about this is that I think that the kind of conclusion that led me to is that I and I've seen this trend, I think in other areas as well, as I sort of feel like maybe with bigger companies, more than others in today's world, there seems to be a shift a little bit that, you know, for example, that that breaking news thing, it's not it's not something that benefits the customer, right? As the customer, I don't think there's a customer out there that says, I really love all these minor news stories appearing in my breaking newsfeed. But what it benefits is the company. It benefits the source because it keeps you engaged. It keeps you coming back and it keeps that ping to keep you engaged. And that's what they're trying to promote. That's good for the... Yeah, that's good for the company, but it's not good for the customer. I think that there may be, we may see some real kind of shifts I think happen in... Lance Dacy (13:21) Or me, it keeps me frustrated and I leave them. Brian (13:34) Some of those big companies maybe have moved too far in that way to favor their company's interest over the customer. And that leaves a door of opportunity, I think, for smaller companies to say, well, we're going to be all in on just what's best for the customer. And I think customers will appreciate that and will reward that because it's annoying otherwise. Lance Dacy (13:54) That's what I want to focus on because the last part of this AI conversation I want to have is I like a lot of what Gary Hamill, he's a management professor at a lot of different schools recently. He visits a lot of companies as well, but I really like the way he delivers his content and how he's more innovative and thought. I mean, I tell people all the time that management and leadership has not seen any innovation in 150 years. It's about time. that we start learning how to create cultures for human beings that are bringing gifts and talents every day to make things better for our customers. And Gary Hamill is a really good source if you're interested in those kinds of things. And so he emphasizes how AI has reshaped value creation by eliminating those low-level tasks that I think we all can embrace and are allowing agile teams to achieve unprecedented efficiency. Now... We are babies immature with this technology. So maybe these news organizations and the ones that we're going to kind of say, you're not doing a good job at it. It's not because they're bad. It's just we're learning how to use a new tool and hopefully customer feedback will change that. But I wanted to hit on these Dora metrics. Dora metrics are, I think they were created by DevOps research and assessment. That's what they kind of stand for. And there's four major categories. that Dora metrics measure as it relates to more of an engineering benchmark. Like how well are we, if you're an agile software development product company, Dora metrics are really good for you to look at. know, metrics can be misused, so be careful, but they're measuring outcomes. You know, what is our deployment frequency, which could be an output metric, because who knows if you're releasing the right things, but let's not get into that conversation. deployment frequency, lead time for changes, the change failure rate of your changes, and the meantime to recovery of those changes. I think those are really four good performance benchmarks. And they're starting to surface a lot in organizations that I work with. So you kind of use tools like Jellyfish or something to overlay over Jira. And all these tools are great, but these teams are using AI. And I found that we finally get some real data that says, how well is AI affecting those core metrics if you were measuring performance benchmarks of the software that you're delivering. And so this report that was created by the 2024 Accelerate State of DevOps report, they categorize organizations and performance clusters like elite, high, medium, and low. And based on their performance across these metrics that I just mentioned earlier, they're evaluating and guiding their software delivery practices. And so the impact of AI adoption was really cool to see on the DevOps Launchpad was a site that I saw this on, that the integration of AI into the development processes, as we were just talking about, has mixed effects on those door metrics. Can you believe that? So a 25 % increase in AI adoption correlated with a one and a half percent decrease in team throughput and a 72 % decrease in the stability of the product. Now these suggest that while AI, you know, offers productivity benefits maybe for the individuals or the teams, it has a, you know, it's introducing complexities that are affecting the software delivery performance. So I want our audience to pay attention to that. Brian (16:59) Wow. Wow. Lance Dacy (17:21) and start using some of these maybe to push back on managers and leaders that are just embracing this new tool and say, let's just push this on the teams. So that's the impact of AI adoption. And then if you look at platform engineering, so if you look at the implementation of an internal developer platforms, you know, that are helping developers deploy code faster, the adoption of AI led to an 8 % increase in individual productivity. and a 10 % increase at the team level. Now that's fantastic. But these gains were accompanied by an 8 % decrease in change throughput. So while the teams may be able to make changes, what I interpret that to mean is the customer is not seeing the changes. There's an 8 % decrease in the throughput all the way as a cycle time, if you will, all the way to the customer and a 14 % decrease in the stability of the product. So that indicates trade-offs. that we all need to be aware of that AI might be helping us performance wise, but it's not helping the customer a whole lot if we're destabilizing the platform. So I haven't dug into those metrics a lot, but I wanted to share that with the audience because if you do find yourself in a position where people are pushing this, you can try to go reference those and maybe give them some, I always call it pros and cons, right? There's no really right or wrong when you're an agile team trying to make a decision. You got to look at the pros and the cons and Brian (18:23) Yeah. Lance Dacy (18:40) We might accept a pro, multiple pros that come with some cons, but we all look at each other and say, that's the better decision for our customer. And we live with those cons, whatever they may be. So I wanted to talk about that because it centers on what you were just thinking with the news organization. just push, we got more productive at pushing content, but was it the right content or is it destabilizing what people are using? And you just have to be careful of that. Brian (18:57) Yeah. Yeah, no, I think those are excellent points. I think that's one of the things I see kind of for 2025 as well is that we're still so much in the empathy of how AI really plays into how a team operates and how development works that I don't think we can really say ultimately what's the right way or wrong way to do anything yet. I think it's good for teams to experiment. I don't think you should be afraid of experimenting and trying things. But it all comes back to the basic principle we say over and over as Agilist, inspect and adapt on it. Try something and identify what works about it and what doesn't work. And if that means that, we're using it too much and it's causing too much errors, we'll back off, find the right point, and move forward with that. Lance Dacy (19:41) Yeah. Or where companies are using it bad. Like I have a story that we won't get into here where a CEO or an executive of the company was mandating that they use AI to do something not so good for the customers. And you want to be able to push on that as well. So I'm sorry to interrupt you on that, but I was just like, man, that's something. Brian (20:07) Right. No. Lance Dacy (20:11) Sometimes, like we want to self-organize around the experimentation. We don't want it pushed in like management saying, need to use this because I want you more productive and managers be careful of doing that. Make sure you understand the pros and cons as much as you can before you dictate. Brian (20:26) Yeah. Something else you kind of said triggered something to me. I know the, I think that, well, not in a bad way, but it just, you know, the metrics I think that you mentioned were really good metrics. I liked the idea of kind of measuring, you know, things like, you know, the failure, the bug rate, you know, like how many defects and those kinds of things I think are good metrics. But they kind of, Lance Dacy (20:31) What? Okay. Brian (20:49) point out a certain difference that I think that's out there that I think the business community is wrestling with. And I hear these questions all the times in class, so I know it's prevalent out there. But we talk about building high performing teams. And just the difference between that word performing and productivity. There's sometimes I think confusion or false equivalency. between those two, that performance equals productivity. And I think a lot of the metrics sometimes we see that get measured or that we try to measure even, kind of expose that, as that's what's really the issue here, is that we're really trying to make that false equivalency between the two. It's not saying that performance has nothing to do with it, but Lance Dacy (21:15) Right. Brian (21:32) You know, this is the simplicity, the art of maximizing the amount of work not done is essential. You know, I'd rather have low productivity, but what we produce is high performing, is highly valuable, is something that matters, right? And I think that's kind of those kinds of statistics like you were bringing up, you know, what is our failure rate of things we put out there? Lance Dacy (21:44) Yeah. Brian (21:54) That is, I think, a performance metric to say, the old phrase, slow down to go faster. Right, right. Maybe the reason that our failure rate goes up and we're having problems with this is that we're trying to go too fast. And if we could back off, it ultimately makes you go faster if you have less bugs that you then have to go back and fix. Lance Dacy (22:00) Yeah, make hate, totally. Yeah. Brian (22:19) So it may be counterintuitive to certain organizations. Let's push them. Let's try to get everyone to go faster. But I think these new kind of metrics that you mentioned that we're trying to measure more and more, I think are starting to open people's eyes a little bit to the difference between those two words. Lance Dacy (22:22) I mean Well, in like the CrowdStrike situation, you know, that took down a lot of the airline systems, you know, I'm not saying they make, they didn't do a good job deploying and everything. All of us are victim of that kind of thing. But, know, to get us back on track a little bit, because you asked me the question, then I felt like I got us off on a tangent. know, 2024, obviously the rise of AI integration into Brian (22:48) Sure. Lance Dacy (22:54) the workflows that we experienced with Agile. And I just wanted to highlight, yeah, those are some great things, experiment with it. We're in our infancy. So there are a lot of things to discover that may not be so good. So start trying to put metrics in place. And I thought the Dora metrics, you know, as I've started discovering those, I'm a data guy and I'm like, yeah, as long as those are being tracked correctly, I think that's a good benchmark to kind of look at, hey, we're making a lot of changes in our software, but it's crashing the system. So change is good, crashing is bad. there's pros and cons, so we have to delegate that or figure that out. Now, the other one that you just mentioned, I thought I saw a great shift in 2024 from output related metrics to outcome oriented metrics. So the Scrum Alliance has a report, which we're all probably familiar with, especially you and I being certified Scrum trainers with, and we get a lot of data from them. But teams moved away from feature counts to measuring outcomes like Brian (23:35) Yeah. Yeah. Lance Dacy (23:49) customer satisfaction, user retention. You we teach this in our advanced certified Scrum Master workshops, the difference between output versus outcome metrics. And we've been doing that for five years. And I think it's really starting to take hold that management and leadership and maybe even teams are measuring the wrong thing. And I really saw the needle move in 2024 that people's eyes are opening that let's measure the outcomes of what we're doing. Sometimes that sacrifices individual productivity and performance for a greater outcome achieved at the organization or customer level. And we've been trying to articulate that for many years. And so I've seen a shift in that. And then also the rise of Agile beyond what I would generalize as IT. So Agile Alliance produced some information that I thought was interesting that Agile has expanded into health care or sectors like health care. education, human resources, HR, and those are typically what we would see the laggards, you know, back in the day, banking and healthcare and all those were the last people to adopt this progressive planning approach because of the way that they budget and finance and rightfully so. But those agile principles have been proven out far beyond software unpredictable type work and is going more into, you know, the different types of work environments and I think onto that is how it's getting involved more in leadership. So I don't know about you, but I've also seen people focusing more on building a culture of, I would like to call it leadership agility. So John Maxwell, you know, is a vocal person in the industry about leadership. And he underscored this idea that agile leadership. in driving transformation across non-technical domains. So not just a digital transformation, but non-technical domains is really taking hold in this idea of empowering cross-functional teams. You we've been saying this in technology for years, that the siloed development method is not good. Well, organizations are starting to see that not only in the tech sector, but why don't we put a marketing cross-functional team together with this other team? And that's what they talked about in 86. you know, in the new, new product development game. And I think I started to see the needle move a little bit more with leaders being more fascinated about leadership agility and driving culture change to meet the demands of cross-functional teams. And it could just be a by-product that technology has gotten easier to make these and focus on these things now, but psychological safety, know, sustainability and agile with, people having real goals and integrating. Brian (25:59) You Lance Dacy (26:23) What you see now is a lot of these eco-conscious practices coming in to product development, like the environmental, social, government's commitments as well, are making their way in there. So I want to just reflect on 2024. I don't know what you think. I'd love to interact with the audience too, but those are kind of the main things that I saw. And that will lead us into a good discussion of how we see that helping us in 2025. So what do you think about those? Brian (26:49) I One of the things I think that kind of stood out to me from what you talked about was the concept of how that plays in leadership. And I think you're absolutely right. think that is, I am hearing more of that in classes, people talking about that when they ask questions. You know, we've talked about for years that the fact that there can be sort of I don't know a better word to say but a glass ceiling sometimes in the organization for agile and how it spreads across and that leaders are often You know overlooked as far as getting trained in this kind of stuff and understanding it and I do see a rise in leaders trying to understand a little bit more about how can we You know incorporate this or even better, you know, how do we support? and nurture and foster this culture in our organization. So I think you're absolutely right. I think that is sort of a hidden or kind of a cheat code, if you will, for organizations to try to be more successful with the stuff we talk about is if you can have, it's not a top-down approach, but if you don't have the top on board, then they can really start to become a hindrance or a roadblock to the teams actually being successful with it. And so I agree. think that, you know, I'm hopeful that that shift is occurring. I'm seeing signs of that, you know, it's kind of always a little bit of a back and forth, you know, is it moving in that direction? Then I start to hear people say, no, we're having trouble. And the anecdotal little stories you hear makes you kind of not sure what the prevalence is, you know? Lance Dacy (27:54) Yeah Lose hope. You lose hope. I think, you know, the big takeaway for me for this as we talk about 2025 is it's going to be increasingly difficult and it has been increasingly difficult for any one individual company, product, service, whatever you want to call it, to differentiate yourself from other people. I've been telling my kids this forever. Brian (28:18) Right, right, exactly. Lance Dacy (28:38) that I feel I've seen a big shift from when I was back in early 90s, know, writing spreadsheets for people, they thought it was just unbelievable the work that I was doing because not everybody could do that. Well, everybody can do that now. So what I mean about differentiating yourself is, you know, AI is one of those things that you have to start prioritizing AI literacy because we've just talked about how immature we might be in some cases with this. But if we can ensure that our team members understand how to work effectively with those AI powered tools and letting AI be an active team participant, then I think we're going to start seeing even a greater problem with being able to differentiate yourself. So the main point I want to make for 2025 that I believe is going to be a real big focus is a is a hyper personalization of customer products. So there's a lot of companies out there that are really good. You just mentioned it with the news, right? Hey, I'm building your content, I'm keeping you engaged, but am I really serving you? Am I giving you your needs? And maybe it's okay if news organizations do that if you have a way to filter it and customize it. But really what I'm talking about is, and I'll go back to what Gary Hamill says about this. He says, the markets are crowded. And when you have the rise of AI and tools like Trello, Monday, and things like that, those are project management tools, right? Used to, you could be a better product company just if you would manage your work better. You know, you were using Scrum or Agile, you had an edge on everybody else. You could deploy faster and that was your secret sauce, right? But now that most people can do that now, what's your next up level in game? And he thinks it's going to be this hyper personalized customer solution and engagement. Brian (30:06) Right. Lance Dacy (30:23) where we need to invest in more customer discovery processes. You know how hard that is in teaching tech teams to do that? All we focus on is building the features, but how about we get better at customer discovery and really understand the tools that provide deep insights into their behavior so we can recognize that? know, several companies that I think are on the forefront of that, for those of you who are like, yeah, I'm concerned about that too. Where can we get better at that? I mean, go look at Amazon. Brian (30:30) Yeah. Lance Dacy (30:51) You know, Amazon uses highly sophisticated algorithms to analyze customer behavior, which enables them to produce product recommendations and help you buy things you didn't even know. You remember when we would teach like Kano analysis in a product owner class and they had six categories of features and one of those feature categories was an exciter or delighter feature. You know, the key to being a good differentiator is providing product and features that people didn't even know they needed. That's why customers are not always right, you know, on what they need. They're thinking about their reactive sense. And so how can we get better at predicting their behavior even more than they can and use AI and machine learning that allow for real-time adjustments? Because that used to take forever. You you think about Benjamin Graham's book on investing in the 1940s and 50s, trying to predict what the stock market is going to do is nearly impossible now. But can you imagine how he differentiated himself by doing all these algorithms by hand? Brian (31:20) Yeah. Lance Dacy (31:48) And so what I mean by that is we need to use AI and these tools to help do more predictive customer experiences. So Amazon does a good job. Netflix employs a lot of data analytics to help understand viewing habits. Starbucks does this. Spotify does it. So I really feel like in 2025, if you want something to focus on and you're a software product development company practicing agile, build literacy of AI tools with your team. Make sure we're using them the right way. Track the right. data, but more importantly, let's discover what our customers are doing and behaving and use the AI to help us decipher that information a lot easier so that we as humans can make a decision on where we spend the great scarce capacity of our teams building great products for them. And so there's a lot of things that go into that, but I feel like that's going to be the focus in 2025. That's what's going to separate the people that succeed even individually. How are you going to differentiate yourself from a market pool of people out there? You need to start learning how to use these tools and differentiate yourself. That's the for 2025. Brian (32:52) Yeah. No, that's a great point. I'll tag on and say that I know there's this, people probably have heard of this, there's a social media kind of trend of if you use chat GPT or something like that a lot to go to it and say, tell me some insights about myself that I may not know, just based on all my interactions with you. And that was a trend for a while for people to ask that and then. they were shocked in some of the things that would come out from chat GPT. Well, what I found in taking a couple of courses and things about AI is, it's really good at taking a large amount of data and then pulling out things that you may not be aware of. I think that's going to be something, the more data driven we are, obviously the better because we have facts behind it. And as you said, it has to be the right, we have to collect the right kind of data. you can take a big... Lance Dacy (33:19) Yep. Yes. Brian (33:43) source of data and feed it into an AI like ChatGPT and say, give me five hidden insights from this data. Yeah. Lance Dacy (33:50) Yeah, stuff you thought about, right? I think insights, that's the way to put it. And I used to have a saying being a data analytics guy for 20 years. Most people and organizations are data rich, but information poor. And I would like to change that word nowadays to insights poor because Brian (34:09) Yeah. Lance Dacy (34:09) We may have all the data and tracking data, there's no harm in that, know, storage is cheap these days. So go ahead and track it all. You can report on it infinite number of ways. And that's the secret sauce. And I think you just hit it on the head that, just go ahead and start tracking stuff. Let AI, you can't ever read that amount of data as a human being and decipher it. Let the machine do that. But then you can test it. You can say, do I really believe that or not? Because you have a humanistic experience that AI doesn't have. So we should embrace that. Brian (34:40) Yeah, I agree. Well, I mean, I hope people are hopeful. I'm hopeful. I know when I start a new year, I generally am hopeful because that's just the way I try to start new years. But I'm hopeful for some of these changes. think the tools that we have are just making things, some things that might have been more mundane, a little easier for us to do. And maybe that allows us to focus. Well, like the data I brought about at the very beginning, you the fact that there's a rise in, you know, postings and companies needing jobs that require human judgment and decision-making. I think that's where we're headed is, you know, that rise in human judgment and decision-making skill. And that's something that's at least at the moment, you know, our computers can't do for us. And it really does require, just like you talked about, understanding our customers. I can't put an AI out there to try to interview all my customers and get deep. Well, but not and get the kind of deep insights I want, right? Not to find out what the real problems are. It wouldn't know how to question it enough and dig deeper into different ways to truly figure those out. So it requires huge human judgment and decision-making. And I think that's where we... Lance Dacy (35:35) you could. Right. Brian (35:51) now bring the value is in that area. Lance Dacy (35:53) Well, and people hate change, right? So let's just end with this. know, most people, customers, you change things on the product. You put a new car design. We usually don't like it. So you want to hang in there and not get too distracted by noise with that. mean, remember when the first iPhone came out, you know, older generations like this is too complicated. I don't want to use it. And there is something to say for that. But eventually that's what we use and we learn how to adapt to it. So stay hyper competitive in 2025. Foster continuous learning for your team. So stay updated on industry trends. It'll lead time to experiment and invest in your team's learning. Prioritize collaboration and innovation. None of us are smarter than all of us together. Break down the silos. Encourage the cross-functional collaboration. And experimentation is going to be key. Leaders and managers in particular. must foster an environment where it's safe to not do so well. I tried something, it didn't work, and I'm sorry about that, but I learned from it and I'm going to try it this way next time. That's not a huge thing right now. We need to foster that. The last one, focus on delivering value. Keep the customer at the center of everything. Use metrics to measure your real world impact, not just the outputs. And I think that's how we can summarize everything that we talked about. Those are the three things if we had to take away. continuous learning, collaboration and innovation, and focus on delivering value. Good luck in 2025, right, Brian? Brian (37:19) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's awesome. Well, I hope this has been beneficial to folks. And Lance, I appreciate you keeping our tradition and helping us look forward into the new year. obviously, a very happy new year to you and your family. And thank you for coming back and joining us. Lance Dacy (37:35) Yeah, likewise to you, Brian. Glad to do it. Hope to see you all soon. Thank you all.

Karthiga Seturaj: The Isolated Product Owner, Lacking Collaboration and Engagement Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: Dealing With Uncertainty and Growing Team Trust Karthiga shares the characteristics of an exemplary Product Owner, emphasizing their ability to navigate ambiguity and support their teams during challenging moments. Great Product Owners demonstrate strong leadership, foster team relationships, and celebrate successes, contributing to a positive and collaborative environment. The Bad Product Owner: The Isolated PO, Lacking Collaboration and Engagement Karthiga discusses anti-patterns in Product Ownership, including the absence of strong relationships with developers and testers. A “bad” PO often fails to collaborate effectively within the “three amigos” framework or acts solely as a task scribe. These behaviors hinder refinement and the overall development process, emphasizing the need for active, communicative Product Owners. Self-reflection Question: How does your Product Owner foster collaboration with developers and testers? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Karthiga Seturaj: Building Habits for Continuous Improvement With The Help Of Agile Retrospectives Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Karthiga's success definition is similar to what we've heard before:  helping teams achieve independence and self-sufficiency. To illustrate that point, she describes an experience where a team's decision to run retrospectives independently was both surprising and fulfilling, marking a key moment of maturity. This shift allowed her to focus on more strategic initiatives and support the team's continued growth. Self-reflection Question: Does your team take proactive steps to improve their work processes without prompting? Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: DAKI (Drop, Add, Keep, Iterate) Karthiga highlights the DAKI retrospective format as a simple yet effective way to foster team reflection. By encouraging teams to categorize feedback into what to drop, add, keep, and iterate, this approach helps Scrum Masters facilitate actionable discussions. She suggests using tools like a retro postbox on a shared whiteboard to make capturing daily ideas a habit. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Karthiga Seturaj: Leading Agile Transformations with the Flow Framework Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Karthiga discusses an agile transformation involving the adoption of the Flow Framework and Spotify model. With leadership support and tools like Lean Change Canvas, the transition fostered psychological safety, adaptability, and feedback-driven improvement. Key lessons include measuring the current state, establishing clear success criteria, and embracing agility in agile adoption. Self-reflection Question: How can you ensure psychological safety during major changes in your organization? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Missed some episodes this year? Don’t worry—Brian’s got you covered with a highlight reel of 2024’s most memorable moments, featuring game-changing insights from Agile thought leaders and innovators. Tune in to catch up, reflect, and set your sights on a stellar 2025! Overview In this special year-end episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian takes us on a trip down memory lane, sharing highlights from some of the most impactful conversations of the year. Featuring insights from Agile legends like Mike Cohn, Clinton Keith, Heather McGowan, and more, this curated selection is packed with golden nuggets that you can revisit or discover for the first time. Whether you missed an episode or want to relive the best moments, this recap is a perfect way to close out 2024 and prepare for what’s ahead. References and resources mentioned in the show: #79 Navigating Agile Trends and Challenges in 2024 with Lance Dacy #86 Revisiting User Stories with Mike Cohn #90 Mastering Agile Coaching with Cherie Silas #93 The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn #100 Navigating the Future of Agile and Scrum with Lance Dacy & Scott Dunn #111 Adapting to the Future of Work with Heather McGowan #120 Agile in Gaming with Clinton Keith #123 Unlocking Team Intelligence with Linda Rising Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00.622) I'm Brian Milner and this is the Agile Mentors Podcast, a show about both the personal and organizational journey towards agility. My friends and I will be sharing with you what we've collectively learned from seeing thousands of companies Agile implementations, apparels and pitfalls, as well as the secrets to success. We'll share our personal in the trenches experiences so that you can apply what we've learned in a practical way in your careers. We also hope to hear and learn from you as well. If you're like us and are always in search of better ways of working together, you're in the right place. Join us, mentor, and be mentored. Let's get started. Brian Milner (00:53.288) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for the final episode of 2024. Believe it or not, we have reached all the way to the end. You might be thinking, wait, there's a few more weeks left. Yeah, there's a few more weeks left, but the next release date would have been on Christmas Day itself and the one following would have been on New Year's Day. So we're gonna take two weeks off to be with our families after this episode. And we encourage you to enjoy that time, take the time with your family as well and friends, and truly wish you the best over that time period. But before we get there, we do have one more episode for you. We thought what we'd do for today's episode might be tiny bit different than normal. In fact, I don't think we've done anything like this before. What I wanted to do is, since it is the last episode of the year, is to look back over the past year and play you some portions of some of the really fantastic discussions that we had over this past year. Just pull out a handful of these to talk to you about. If they sound interesting to you, maybe you can go back and take a listen to those episodes. So let's get right into it, because I don't want to waste time setting it up any more than that. For starters, I want to go back to something that's now kind of a tradition for us, and the next one you'll hear from us after this episode will be the continuation of that. The beginning of this year in 2024, we started things off and we kicked it off with friend of the show, Lance Dacey. And that episode was really about looking forward into 2024. And for us to talk about what we maybe thought was coming and what we saw in the future, and then trying to somehow make some predictions or give some advice about how we might be better prepared for it. And one of the areas that came out in that discussion was really talking about how leadership affected an Agile transformation and Agile with the culture of an organization. So I'll play you a little clip here from Lance's discussion. One of the thoughts that he had in that episode, really talking more about how we need to go to the next level with our organizations and with the leadership in our organization. Take a listen. We've been trying to scale Scrum and Agile for a long time and we've written the practices on how to do it. Brian Milner (03:13.23) but we're not allowing the people to practice that. You know, just got through coaching. My youngest son is in fifth grade and we coach his football team. It's like, we're going to sit down and tell you during this play, here's the stance that you take to block. You're basically a robot. Do everything that we say, even if you don't understand it, because the whole scheme for that play is built on everybody doing their job exactly as prescribed. But as you evolve into professional football or high school football, they've learned so much about those mechanics. that's really fun now because they've got the IQ to respond to what's in front of them. That's agile. And that to me is what we have to start learning in organizations, is we know how to run the play at the team level, but how do we build up the people to run the play correctly in challenges when there's adaptations that need to be made? And a lot of times management and leadership is the suffocating part of that where they don't allow for that. It's always interesting to go back and look at those conversations that we have at beginning of the year. and see kind of how it played out. Were we right? Were we wrong? So if you're interested in that, check out that. That was just episode 79 was the first one that we did in 2024. Next up, I'm gonna jump to episode 86. This was one with our very own Mike Cohn. Mike had come back on because quite frankly, we've had for many years a set of user stories that were sample user stories that you could come to our website and download just as a resource for people if they wanted to see what... samples of user stories look like, try to imagine what that would look like in their particular context. So that's why we had this collection of user stories. Well, Mike went back to re-edit those recently, and then he took kind of another look at it and had forced him to kind of reconsider some things, wanted to share some thoughts about those new ideas and thoughts he had about user stories, just in re-examining ones that he had put together previously. So in this next clip, what you'll hear Mike talk about is really kind of a controversy maybe just his own controversy internally, but kind of a shift that he had over the years and really the template itself for a user story. So take a listen to this. I had a bunch of slides. I looked at them a few years ago to confirm this. I looked at them and they all said, I want to blank, right? And it was what the user wants. And sometimes it's not what the user wants. So if you look at slide decks that I create today, they all say, I. Brian Milner (05:36.866) They don't say I can, they don't say I want to, they just say I, and then you fill in the verb. For example, as user, I am required to enter a strong password. I don't want to enter a strong password. I want to type in my dog's name and let the system know it's me, right? So I am required to enter a strong password that doesn't fit with I want to or I can. I can enter a strong password? Well, that doesn't really help. I don't want to. I can enter a strong password. I can enter a weak password. Is that possible? So I do think there's problems with I can, but I leave all of that out of the template and I let the situation determine what that verb should be. Always an interesting conversation there with Mike Cohn. Very, very lucky and fortunate to have him come on usually multiple times per year. And that was just one of the times that Mike came on our show this last year, but really, really interesting stuff there about user stories. If that's something you're interested in, I encourage you to check out that. That was episode 86 with Mike Cohn on user stories. Now we're gonna jump ahead to episode 90. Episode 90, we had a friend of mine, Sheree Silas, come on. Sheree is a very authoritative, knowledgeable person on Agile coaching. In fact, she is the person that I most likely am going to point you to if you come to me and want to find out more about Agile coaching. She has some really great classes and other things that she teaches. And we had her on to talk about Agile coaching, obviously. And one of the things that came up is something that I hear sometimes in classes that Some of this coaching stuff you talk about sounds a little bit like counseling a little bit. Is there a crossover there with counseling? Is this a counseling job? So take a listen to what Shree had to say in response to that question. As an adult coach, you are not an organizational psychologist. You are not a counselor. You are not an organizational therapist or any of those things. That is not the job. The job is consulting, mentoring, training. and some coaching, helping people how to learn how to negotiate, learn how to collaborate, learn how to have good, healthy conflict. And there's helping them to get the business results they want. And it's very frustrating when you kind of hear this taking all the way to the other end of, we're just there to do woo-woo touchy feely stuff. I'm the psychologist. No, that's not your job. And you're not trained to do that. And that's part of the coaching work. Brian Milner (08:03.136) is to help them understand what they need and what they don't. And even as a professional coach, it is my job to make sure my client understands what coaching is and what it's not. And as an Agile coach, that's part of the work is to make sure the client understands what this work is and what it's not. Yeah, really good stuff there about Agile coaching. If you're interested in finding out more about that, listen to that episode. You'll hear more from Sheree on episode 90 about Agile coaching. Next up, I have a relatively new friend of mine, but one that, you know, feel like brother from another mother. Mr. Evan Layborn was on and he came on to talk about some research that his organization had done in partnership with the Scrum Alliance. And in particular, there was one component of that that I wanted to question him about because when I initially read it, it gave me a little bit of some misgivings about it. One of the things I mentioned was that traditionally we have always talked about being a T-shaped individual on a Scrum team that had a depth of experience in one area. but a breadth of experience in other areas that you just weren't an expert in. You were only really looking to be an expert in one area. But this report kind of brought to bear this idea of what they're calling a pie-shaped individual. So think about the mathematical symbol pie and how it has two lines going down. It's kind of like a T with two lines going down from it, right? And when I saw that, initially my first thought was, well, is this just organizations trying to get by with less head count? Take a listen to what Evan had to say about that. I want to be clear that when we're talking about pie-shaped individuals and companies looking for pi-shaped individuals, we're not talking about companies who are looking for one person to do two jobs. They're not looking for someone who's got two skills because they're trying to fill two roles. They're trying to fill two jobs. We're talking about one person, one job, and using multiple skill sets to do that job better. more effectively. In the technology world, we've had a word for this in the tech world for 10 years, full stack developer. A full stack developer is a pie-shaping, it's a developer with test competence and operations competence. They can deploy a DevOps environment. That full stack developer is a prime example of a pie-shaped person. It's not one person doing two jobs. It's one person doing one job with a variety of skill sets. Brian Milner (10:30.752) and doing that job better, exponentially better because of it. There's some really interesting other insights that Evan had in that episode. highly recommend that to you. That was episode 93 with Mr. Evan Layborne. Next up, well, we celebrated a milestone. We had our hundredth episode, if you can believe it or not. And we thought it would be appropriate to celebrate by having two people that we have on quite frequently on the podcast, Mr. Lance Dacey. and Mr. Scott Dunn. So we had something that we don't often have here on the show where we had multiple guests, but we had Lance and Scott on to really look back over the past 100 episodes and look ahead a little bit into what we thought might be coming. And one of the interesting kind of conversations we had there was thinking about some of the changes taking place in the workplace today. You'll hear Scott kind of start in on this with. thinking about the kind of dilemma organizations are facing with the work from home versus work from office kind of situation. And then Lance will come in and kind of relate it more to some larger agility issues as well. Take a listen. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go agile because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, I could be wrong. Maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board. But there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're going to see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? you get this or not? You cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation. is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about, you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. It was always such fun to have both those people on our podcast and it was even more fun to have them both on at the same time. So I really appreciate both Lance and Scott really helping us celebrate there. The fact that we crossed that threshold into a Brian Milner (12:38.326) our 100th episode. Next up is someone that I found really fascinating. is Miss Heather McGowan. And she was the keynote speaker at the Scrum Gathering this year in New Orleans. And she was so gracious to come on the podcast and talk with us a little bit. She had some really great insights. Just listen to what she had to say here in thinking about sort of the place of work in general as a part of our lives today. But what I think what's really happening is we've outsized what work is in our lives. So community used to consist of social interactions, religious affiliations, clubs and groups we belong to, all of those kind of, if you think of them as circles, because everything's visual to me, all those circles shrank and work became bigger. So now part of this generational change, but more and more people are looking for work to provide their purpose. work to provide most of their relationships, work to fill these. It's a little bit in terms of how we're interacting with each other that's causing illness, but it's also an outsize expectation we have around work. So now it becomes table stakes for a lot of organizations for work to be my self-expression, work to be my sense of purpose, work to be where I think about my values. And it wasn't like that a few decades ago. I heard from a couple of people after this episode, just friends of mine talking about it. I want to make sure I'm clear about something here that Heather was saying, she's not saying that we should find our values from those places. She's just saying that's kind of how society has shifted a little bit. So you can debate whether it's good or bad, whether the other circles that she mentioned had shrunk or grown or anything like that. But really that's kind of the reality we're left with is that there's a lot of people who find their belongingness from work today, as I said, whether that's a good or bad thing, you can debate. but that's certainly a reality I think we have to live with. And this was a really interesting discussion. So I highly encourage you to check that out if you want to. That was episode number 111 with Heather McGowan. Next up was someone I found really interesting as well. This was Mr. Clinton Keith. Clinton is a veteran of the gaming industry. And I know there's always some interest in that in our listeners and in the Agile community about how you really can apply some of these Agile principles and things. Brian Milner (14:55.704) to an industry that's so fast moving like the gaming industry. Well, as I said, Clint has worked in that industry for a very long time and he's seen pretty much everything there. He's worked in all different kinds of gaming companies. He's helped them to learn and apply these agile principles along the way. So I'll just share a snippet of the conversation that we had. In this clip, he's talking really about how some of these principles we talk about like, individuals and interactions over processes and tools and are we letting something like a new technology drive how we do things or is it really more about what's the value we're trying to deliver, right? And in the gaming industry, it's fun. It's delivering something that's fun. So take a listen to what he had to say about kind of one of these experiences he had about really finding the fun. The big light bulb moment was having a short deadline on showing something of value. led to people making better choices from the player's perspective, not this challenge of, what can I do with artificial intelligence over the next two years? That's part of the big challenge with these big, huge games of saying, it's like, hey, if there's not a payoff, if you can't see value, and this was an early lesson I learned working with Nintendo of Japan, the guy that made Mario and Donkey Kong, we worked with him directly, Miyamoto. You always had this thing, it's like, the fun fast, show the value of it. And it always stuck with me. When you have these short deadlines, you want to encourage the teams and the product owners is judge the game. Not what you see in the potential in two years. Judge your vision of the two years against what you're seeing every other week and adjust your expectations. Don't fall in love with your vision. Judge the game. Don't fall in love with your vision. Such great advice there, and I think it's so applicable to really industry. Don't get caught up in that word game, right? Judge the product. Think about it that way. I think sometimes, especially for us as product owners, sometimes we can look at that and say, we've got these grand visions and grand designs for our product, in two years we're gonna have this incredible product that's gonna do all these things. Well, you may not make it to two years. You may not make it to two years if you don't. Brian Milner (17:16.897) deliver a value earlier, right? If you don't capture the imagination and attention of your customers, if you don't solve a problem for them upfront, we know the big idea is gonna take longer to get to, but I think what Clinton is saying here, and it's really an important point, I think, is that that's part of what we kind of focus on as Agilist is trying to find the value and deliver it early. So just a really fascinating episode there as well with Clinton. Encourage you to check that out, especially if you have interest in the gaming industry, lots of good content there from him in episode 120. Lastly today, I'm gonna leave you with one last one that wasn't too long ago here, but we had someone that is kind of a beloved figure in the Agile community. She's often referred to as an Agile visionary. That's Ms. Linda Rising. And she came on to talk about multiple things with us, but one of the things that she talked about in our conversation, was about a research project that Google did several years back called Project Aristotle. They were trying to figure out kind of the components, what went into making a high-performing team. So just listen to what Linda has to say about what their scientific research kind of uncovered about really what goes into making a team high-performing. All these different researchers made the same mistake in the beginning. and it's the same mistake organizations make. They thought in the beginning that what makes a smart team is smart people. Wrong. Not that you don't want smart people. You can have a team of very smart people that doesn't have any of these other characteristics that is not intelligent as a group. We really have to wake up and realize, first of all, that we're doing that, that we're valuing IQ or individual intelligence, smartness, you went to this school or you got that particular SAT score. It has nothing to do with that. It's not that there's no correlation, but it's weak. It's much better to have people who have these other characteristics. I just have to say Brian Milner (19:38.444) We are so spoiled Agile mentors with some of the great people like Linda Rising that we get to hear on this podcast and learn from really as sort of a masterclass from some of the best thinkers in this industry. And I know I'm very thankful for them taking their time and thankful for people like Linda Rising coming on the show. If that dialogue that you just heard there sounds interesting, check out that episode. It was episode 123. Linda talks about a lot of lot more great stuff there in that episode. But yeah, we get so many great guests on our show and that was just a handful. It's hard to even pick out just, I think we just had eight of them there. It's hard to pick out just eight over the past year, because there were just so many. And any of the other guests on here, I hope you don't feel like you were not in the top eight or anything. This was just a sampling. I just wanted to pull some different kinds of episodes and I think there was quite a variety of guests and topics and things that we had on the show this year. It just makes me excited about thinking about what's possible in the next year. I know we're gonna be trying some new things. I've been interacting with some of you at the Agile Mentors Community and you've been talking to me about some suggestions about things that maybe we can do. And we're gonna try that. We're gonna try some new things going into the new year. So you may see some shifts from time to time of just a few experiments that we might be trying. As always, we'd love to hear your feedback on any of those things, but we're always in search of making this the most valuable use of your time. We think that the quality of the people, like you just heard, is pretty good. We're pretty happy with the people that really decide to come on the show, and we're very humbled by the fact that they choose to come on our show. I just wanna always make it the most valuable use of your time. We want this to be the most valuable Agile podcast that's out there. As always, if there's anything we can do to change that, I'll go ahead and just say that now. email us podcast at mountegoatsoftware.com. Put that at the end of every episode. Truly mean it. If there's things that you want us to experiment with or try, if there's guests you want to hear, in addition to some of these great guests you heard today, there's other people that maybe that you think would be good on the podcast, send us an email, podcast at mountegoatsoftware.com. Or if there's a topic that you want us to cover, let us know that as well. We'd be more than happy to try and put that in. In our planning, Brian Milner (22:01.666) we try to always put the listener's suggestion kind of towards the top of our backlog. It may not be the very next thing we do, but we try to make that as soon as possible. Oftentimes we have to find the right guest, but as soon as we find the right guest, we want to get that listener suggestion on as soon as possible. So thank you for those that have made suggestions in the past and keep them coming. I'll just go into a few other things then and wrap up and get you on your way. It's been fun looking back over the last year. And as I said, I'm excited about seeing where we go next year. Speaking of that, just make sure that you like and subscribe to the podcast. That way you don't miss any of these things, like any of these great episodes that you heard little snippets of here in this podcast episode. And with that, I guess that'll be a wrap for another year. So Agile Mentors, my heartfelt happy holidays to you. Whatever you celebrate this season, I truly, truly hope that you get to spend some time with your family, your friends, your loved ones. truly hope that you get some time to reflect on what you're grateful and thankful for. I hope you come back next year refreshed, ready to go. I hope that's part of your sustainable pace, that time of renewing with the people in your life that are closest to you. We look forward to seeing what happens with you in the new year. So join us back next year. We'll kick things off. We'll be back here in just a few weeks. And on the 8th of January will be our next episode that we release. And we'll have our... of annual sit down with Lance Dacey to look ahead to 2025 and see what's coming up then. So join us and hope you have a very, very happy holidays. See you next time on another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.

Karthiga Seturaj: The Right And The Wrong Metrics For Agile Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Karthiga shares a team story where metrics like Flow Efficiency were implemented to improve understanding of work processes. Despite leadership support and training, the team became overly focused on “making metrics look good,” reflecting Goodhart's Law. This led to discussions on aligning the purpose of metrics with improving workflows, not chasing numbers. Self-reflection Question: Are your team's metrics driving the right behaviors and outcomes? Featured Book of the Week: Project to Product by Mik Kersten Karthiga recommends Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework for its introduction to the Flow Framework and its impact on understanding value stream management. This book transformed her approach to metrics, highlighting bottlenecks and improving flow efficiency. She particularly appreciated its simplicity and practical application in bridging business and technical team gaps. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Karthiga Seturaj: The Importance of Addressing Conflicts Early in Agile Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. As a Scrum Master, Karthiga shares a failure story involving unresolved conflicts between a Product Owner and an engineering lead that escalated into organizational changes and team departures. Reflecting on this experience, Karthiga emphasizes the importance of confronting issues early and effectively. Key tips include involving the right people, leveraging feedback from retrospectives, and using data to address conflicts constructively. Self-reflection Question: How comfortable are you with addressing conflict in your team, and what steps can you take to improve? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

What makes a team intelligent? Brian and Linda Rising explore the surprising factors that foster group intelligence, from psychological safety to diversity, backed by groundbreaking research from MIT and Google. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with Agile thought leader Linda Rising to explore the concept of group intelligence. They dive into what makes teams intelligent, discussing the importance of diversity, psychological safety, and social perceptiveness. Using research from MIT and Google, Linda also highlights how storytelling and a growth mindset can enhance team dynamics, leading to more effective and innovative collaboration. References and resources mentioned in the show: Linda Rising Fearless Change: Patterns for Introducing New Ideas by Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising MIT Center For Collective Intelligence Project Aristotle The Fearless Organization by Amy C. Edmonson Amy Edmonson’s TED Talks 3 ways to better connect with your coworkers - Mark T. Rivera’s TED Talk Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Agile For Leaders Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Linda Rising is an internationally recognized consultant, speaker, and author with a Ph.D. in object-based design metrics. Known for her expertise in agile development, retrospectives, and the intersection of neuroscience and software, Linda has authored five books and numerous articles. In 2020, she received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the World Agility Forum for her impactful contributions to the industry. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back here with you for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am with you as I always am, Brian Milner. And I wanted to introduce you today to someone I think you're really gonna enjoy here on this episode. I have the one and only Linda Rising with me. Linda, thank you so much for coming on. Linda Rising (00:09) Okay. It is my pleasure, Brian. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a beautiful day here in Nashville, Tennessee. Brian (00:32) In Nash Vegas, yes. I actually spent a couple years in Nash Vegas. So I know that area back in the day, back in the day, because I worked at Opryland. So that'll tell you how long ago it was. Yeah, back in the dark times, right? But Linda, for those, if anyone who might not be aware, Linda is an author. She is... Linda Rising (00:33) Yeah! wow okay Brian (00:58) really what people would call an agile luminary. She has been involved with this movement for quite a while and has really, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say shaped the conversation around this a lot with her research and other things that she's provided. we wanted to have her on because she, well, because it's Linda Rising, right? We wanted to have her on for that, but. Recently, she spoke at the Scrum Gathering, the regional Scrum Gathering that took place in Stockholm, and her topic just sounded really fascinating. I thought it would be fascinating for us to talk about. It was a topic of group intelligence. So Linda, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there like me that when they heard that the first time thought, I have no idea what that means. What does group intelligence mean? Linda Rising (01:43) Yeah. Actually, normally when I do anything, give a keynote or an interview on a podcast or the interviewer or the person who's inviting me will say, what would you like to talk about? That's what you did. What would you like to talk about with the idea that I could come up with a list of things I was interested in that I wanted to talk about because I knew something about it. Brian (02:09) Yep, it's true. Linda Rising (02:20) But in this case, no, it was, want you to be the opening keynote for this amazing gathering in Stockholm. and by the way, we want you to talk about group intelligence. So. That was about a year ago and I thought to myself, I don't know anything about, well, maybe I do. Maybe I do know something about group intelligence. But I have spent the past year getting ready for that talk. It was just a few weeks ago and along the way, what I found was it pulled together the research around this topic. pulled together a lot of things that I have been thinking about and it is still not over. I had to give that talk, there was a date for that, but now there are little threads that, as you say, I'm following those down various rabbit holes because they're connected to other things that I'm interested in. So this turned out to be, even though I didn't pick it and I didn't know a whole lot about it, It's turned out to be a great introduction to a different way of thinking. So we know what intelligence is, I think. Don't you? Do you know you have an idea? And aren't you intelligent? Brian (03:41) That's so awesome. Well, that's a quite a loaded question, right? Linda Rising (03:53) Of course you are and and so are our listeners our listeners are intelligent and what's interesting is that the psychologists who measure that They don't really have a definition for intelligence. What they do is they can test for it So have you ever had you know an intelligence test You know, an IQ test. Have you? Have you ever had one? Brian (04:25) You know what, I don't think I ever have, but I know my wife has, my daughters have, I'm very familiar with them, but I can't point back to one to say, hey, I know what my score was. Linda Rising (04:28) I'll bet you have. Well, sometimes you're given that test at a particular point, maybe in high school, and they didn't tell you that it was an intelligence test. You just took it along with the other battery of tests that you were taking at the time. And maybe they didn't tell you, you have an IQ of 145. They didn't tell you how smart you were. Brian (04:47) Yeah. Linda Rising (05:06) but somebody, somewhere, somehow along the way, they did. They measured it. And that's without having a definition for whatever it is. So what that test does is it says you're pretty good at solving a bunch of problems. And that's what the test is. Brian (05:17) That's amazing. Linda Rising (05:32) it asks you to look at some math problems, logic problems, spatial problems, different kinds of problems, and you either solve them pretty well or not so well, and when they are finished with that, that score on that test says something about how well you do at solving those problems. And that's what they're calling intelligence. Brian (06:03) I think I see where you're going with this because to me, if we're going to try to be very precise with words on that, I would say that sounds more like education. If I know how to solve a particular kind of math problem, that's because I've been educated to learn that. It's not a measure of my... Linda Rising (06:13) Yeah. Yep, yep. And so those tests, yeah, those tests do have a bias. They're biased toward people who have a certain kind of education biased against people who maybe didn't have that kind of education. Also, it doesn't even begin to talk about music. Here I am in Music City. Doesn't talk about musical talent. Brian (06:43) Yeah Linda Rising (06:46) It doesn't talk about your ability to perform, say, some sports activity, whether you're going to be a great basketball player or a baseball player. There are a lot of things that intelligence tests don't even, they don't even think about. Now, it doesn't mean this isn't a valid exercise because those IQ tests have been around a long time and they do measure what they measure, they measure it very well. And they do correlate with a lot of performance activities. In fact, if you were hiring somebody, the absolute best thing, if you could just do one thing, would be to give them an IQ test. That correlates most strongly with any kind of performance on the job. So it's a valid test, even if it has some biases, some problems. So that's individual intelligence and we call that IQ. So now the question is, can you do that for a group or a team? Brian (07:53) Yeah. Linda Rising (08:03) Could you say this group, could we measure it somehow? And if so, would it have the same kind of validity? That is, if they do well on this test, would that mean they would do well in the workplace? If we had that, then could we use it to say, all right, this team. is really going to be great for whatever it is that we wanted them to do. Is that possible? So obviously the answer is yes, or I wouldn't be here talking about it. Yeah. So the research is fascinating and it would take a long time to actually go into it, but it was started at MIT. The organization is called the MIT Center for Collective Intelligence. and they have been doing this now for over a decade. So this is not brand new out of the box. We're not sure where this is going. This has been happening and has been happening successfully. They do have a test. They can give it to a group. And what they find is that if the group does well, that group will also do well on other, just like IQ, other kinds of things that the test measures. And so, yes, they can measure group intelligence. Brian (09:38) Very interesting. This is really fascinating. Yeah. It's fascinating. I'm going to interrupt you for just a moment because I know, and forgive me if I'm taking you off track with where you were intending to go. But I know, having heard some of your other talks in the past on agile mindset and what you've written about, I know there's kind of this fundamental idea of the fixed verse. Linda Rising (09:39) It is interesting. Yeah. No, no, no, it's okay. Brian (10:05) growth mindset and the idea of intelligence being not necessarily a thing you're born with, but really something that you have the potential to change and grow. And how does that translate then to the group environment and the group's intelligence? Linda Rising (10:23) Yeah, so that's a great lead in because the next part of it was, well, okay, so we have this test and we can give it to a group, but we'd like to tease out some attributes of teams to say, you know, the teams that do really well on this test, they all seem to have, and they found there were three things that characterized Brian (10:26) Yeah. Linda Rising (10:52) intelligent group. The first one was called social perceptiveness. That is, are the people on the group, are they able to relate to each other? If one of the persons in the groups having a struggle for some reason, are they able to pick up on that? It's kind of hard to say, well what is that social perceptiveness? and we can come back to that, but that's first on the list. The second attribute is that when they have any kind of a discussion, that everybody talks. And that's pretty easy to see, and I know that you've probably been on teams as I have, where really not everybody talked, where maybe mostly one or two Brian (11:24) Yeah. Okay. Linda Rising (11:49) You know the loud people they did all the talking and the rest of us We just kind of sat in the corner and we said well, you know, whatever Yeah We've been there. Well, have we have we have seen that and I don't know how you're gonna feel about the third one But we all are concerned about diversity Brian (12:00) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Linda Rising (12:17) We know that diversity is an issue. All organizations are struggling with the best way to deal with that. But the third attribute has to do with the percentage of women on the team. Brian (12:34) Really? Linda Rising (12:35) So this isn't like 50-50. This doesn't mean that you should have some women. It means the more women you have, the better. Ooh. You wanna think about that one? Brian (12:38) Yeah. You know what? I would not argue with that one bit because all the women that I've had in my life have been the most intelligent people I have known. So I would wholeheartedly concur with that. We're just a bunch of knuckleheads, the guys are. So I completely... Linda Rising (12:58) Ha! Brian (13:17) You know, I'm having some fun, but you're right. I can see that, you know? Like, I could see how that would be a really distinguishing characteristics. Linda Rising (13:22) Wow! So the researchers say maybe it's really not a gender thing because women are very good at social perceptiveness. And maybe what this third attribute, and they did a lot of statistical analyses, you you have to really dig down into the statistics and we don't want to do that. Maybe this third attribute is really a reflection of the first. And then if you, and here we're going to come to your growth mindset, if you could work with the people on the team who were not women, but who were these nerdy guys, know, could you somehow have them grow, improve, get better at social perceptiveness, then that would have the same effect as having more women on the team. And that's kind of where they are right now is can you do this? Are they equivalent? Are they really measuring the same thing? But they know that somehow that's what you've got to have is this ability to read. It's called theory of mind. Read the minds of the people on the team and that typically You know, we're stereotyping here. Typically men are not as good. So can you, could you, can you grow that characteristic? Can you get better? Can you get better at that? Brian (15:06) Yeah, I'll take a slight little side trail here and say that that makes perfect sense to me because one of the things that I found when I was doing my research on neurodiversity and specifically autism was that there's a book out there that I think I've shared on the podcast before, but it's called Autism in Heels. And basically the point of the book is to really examine autism in women. And one of the key points that's made in the book is the fact that when you see statistics about autism, you'll find that there's a huge number, there's a disparity. There's a large number of men, of males that are diagnosed and a few, a smaller percentage of females. And it gives the impression when you look at the data that you might think, well, this is a male thing, right? It's something that happens much more often than male. But this book is making the point that really, Linda Rising (16:02) Yeah. Brian (16:04) the criteria that was set aside to designate whether someone was autistic or not was really geared towards how it presents in males. So women were vastly underdiagnosed and still are to this day vastly underdiagnosed. And one of the things that makes it difficult to diagnose them is women are better at masking their symptoms. very much, they adapt to the environment around them. They pick up on the people around them. Linda Rising (16:18) Yeah. Brian (16:34) and they will mask the things that maybe are naturally a part of them, but they've learned in other parts of life how to do that. And so they're applying that to their autism as well. So that makes perfect sense to me. Linda Rising (16:43) Yeah. Yep, exactly. And of course, if we want to talk about women who have this tendency or on the spectrum, we have to mention Temple Grandin, who is one of the most famous female autistics in the world. I she's done more to gain attention for this problem, and she's definitely female. yeah, it's not it's not a male thing. But you're right that what's happened is that the women have had a growth mindset and whatever they inherited or were born with, they've done a better job at learning how to adapt given what they had as a limitation, adapting to working with others and using that as a strength. So that means that possibly, We could do that kind of thing to improve our teams if we included men in, well, what would it be? Would it be a training program? Would it be just coaching? Maybe this could be the job for a coach can certainly watch. The behavior of the team can notice, for instance, for that second attribute, is the discussion. Brian (17:54) Ha Linda Rising (18:10) Does that involve everybody equally? That could be a first step. And to encourage the growth in that direction. So one of the experiments that was done to follow on with that was to try to get male members of the team who didn't do well, you can actually measure social perceptiveness. And you mentioned autism, one of the tests. for autism is called reading the mind in the eyes. And with that test, you can show that people are better than others. And so maybe this could help us identify people who might benefit from this experimental approach. And that is to have something like, you know, I'm a patterns fan. So a collection of patterns that we used to talk about back in the day was written by Joshua Kerievsky and it was for running a study group where you read a book together a chapter at a time and you talk about it. So in the experiment the hypothesis was that reading a book together would improve the theory of mind or the social perceptiveness if it were a book that was fiction. Brian (19:37) Huh. Linda Rising (19:37) It's a story. A story. There's a hero and a beautiful princess and an adventurer and a bad guy and a good guy. in reading that, you learn to identify with the characters. And you talk about it. What was the character feeling when the handsome prince ran in to rescue the what was he thinking? Brian (19:39) Yeah. Linda Rising (20:05) So in a structured study group situation like that, reading fiction together and the results so far are positive but not enormous. It does help. It does help. Brian (20:20) Yeah. Yeah, I can see that, because you're trying to collectively interpret and you're getting a peek into someone else's mind of how they might interpret a situation and that can help you to interpret other situations. Yeah, I can see that. Linda Rising (20:23) May not. Yeah! Yeah, especially if someone was not in the habit of doing that. There are a lot of people who say, I've never even stopped to think about how the other members of my team are feeling. Brian (20:43) Yeah. Linda Rising (20:56) So attached to all of this is an enormous project that Google also started called Project Aristotle. And their idea was we wanna know what the secret is, what makes great teams. And they looked at everything. They spent years. mean, Google collects data, data they've got. and statisticians and analysts, they got it. And they spent years collecting and analyzing. And the summary at the end of all that was they found nothing. Brian (21:38) Hahaha Linda Rising (21:40) Did you read that? Did you read about that study? Yeah. Brian (21:44) I I'm familiar with that study. I really like what they did. Because when you have that kind of data available to you across cultures, across business units, it was an ambitious kind of study. I'm really thankful that they did it because I think they had some good findings there that came out of that as well. you're right. Linda Rising (21:52) Yeah! Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, they didn't find anything. Brian (22:12) Right, they thought it was gonna be, you know, it's a skill, it's the right mix of skills that makes it a high performing team or expertise and none of that really had a bearing. Yeah. Yeah. Linda Rising (22:15) Get off! And what was interesting about all of this is it sort of all came together because the folks at Google kind of looked over and said, well, look at what these folks at MIT are doing. And they said, maybe we're just not looking at the right thing. And they had talked about this social perceptiveness and what is that anyway? And it was kind of serendipity at about this time. Amy Edmondson wrote a book called The Fearless Organization, and it was about something she called psychological safety. And it was bigger than what the folks at MIT had identified. This has, I am free, I feel safe. Well, that would mean that you could speak up in a discussion and that would make the discussion more, okay, now we would think about what, I mean, what she talked about kind of put a big blanket around all of it and said, hey, I think we might be all talking about this. And the folks at Google said, well, you know, that makes sense. Maybe that's what we're looking for. And how do we do it? How do we do this? So your listeners might wanna just wander out to the Google site because now Google's been very transparent about this. How do you make this work? How do you bring about this psychological safety? How do you get people feel free to talk and to discussion? How do you help people be aware? of what other people are feeling. And they've got a whole raft of suggestions for managers, suggestions for team members, for, you know, and they're really all singing the same song. It's about this awareness of others, feeling that you are safe and that thinking about what other people are thinking. can lead your team to behave in more intelligent way. Brian (24:41) That's so, that's awesome. Right, right. Linda Rising (24:41) It's kind like a miracle. It's like a miracle. It all just came together. They weren't planning that. know, here at MIT, going one direction, Google going another direction. Here's Amy Edmondson at Harvard, and that it all kind of came together. Brian (24:48) That's awesome. You came together now. Yeah, Amy Edmondson is definitely one of my heroes. we've tried to get her on. We tried to get her to come on, but I know that there's layers to get to people like that. so if anyone's listening and has an end to Amy Edmondson, tell her that this is a welcome, this is a psychologically safe podcast to come on. We'd love to have her, but yeah. Linda Rising (25:07) Yeah. Well, yeah. think she did go out and talk to Google. I think there's a Google talk about psychological safety. So they did have her come in and give them some ideas, some suggestions or yeah. And she's on to failure now because her book, After Fearless Organization, which was about psychological safety, the one that, in fact, I just finished it is about failure. Brian (25:44) Yeah. That, Linda Rising (25:59) and their case studies of failures and what can you do about failure and yeah but anyway so she she's on she's she's on to whatever but yeah. Brian (26:07) That's awesome. Yes, she does great research and it's it's chock full in her book So I highly recommend her writing to anyone who's listening if that if this interests you Yeah, definitely read Amy Edmondson's work. You'll really enjoy it Linda Rising (26:14) Yeah Yeah. So, and if you do, then the story is not over, it's still going, which is, not just Amy Edmondson, but there's a fellow named Kevin Dunbar. This is not Robin Dunbar who did the 150 is kind of the magic number. This is a different Dunbar, same last name, but he did a lot of studies about thinking and. especially in science, how do scientists think? And in particular, he was interested in failure. And you know that as a scientist, you propose some hypothesis and then you test it in an experiment and then you stand back and you do an analysis and you say, well, did this work out or not? And he found that some scientists don't... like it when things don't go well. What a surprise, huh? Brian (27:26) Yeah, right. Linda Rising (27:28) Yeah, and they just ignore it. They either pretend it didn't happen or they put it in a drawer saying, we'll come back and, you know, we'll look at it later. But some scientists do a really good job of accepting that failure, working with it, and building on it. saying, hey, this is something we didn't think about. Maybe we can, they, you know, and they're off and running. It doesn't slow them down at all. And it turns out that the scientists who have that characteristic, who are able to do that, are scientists in groups. and they're in groups that are intelligent. They're diverse and open. They let everybody speak. They think about what other people are thinking if they're discouraged or not with this bad result. So the characteristics of those groups of scientists who do well with failure is the same. Brian (28:22) you Linda Rising (28:40) as the groups that MIT identified, the groups that Google is trying to grow. And I think it's really what we want in Agile development. We want groups like that. Not just because we think, intelligence is what. No. We want groups that have that characteristic. We want groups that feel psychologically safe. We want groups that feel free. Brian (28:54) Yeah. Linda Rising (29:08) to express their ideas. We want groups of people who are aware of what other people are thinking. That's what we want. Brian (29:16) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's so cool. Linda Rising (29:18) So they're all talking about the same thing. They may be using different words, but they are really, and one thing that we might wanna note right here is that all these different researchers made the same mistake in the beginning. And it's the same mistake organizations make. Is they thought in the beginning that what makes a smart team is smart people. Wrong. Not that you don't want smart people. Brian (29:48) Yeah. Right. Linda Rising (29:53) But that's just an okay thing to have. You can have a team of very smart people that doesn't have any of these other characteristics that is not intelligent as a group. So I think we really have to wake up and realize, first of all, that we're doing that, that we're valuing IQ or individual intelligence, smartness, you went to this school or you got that particular SAT score. It has nothing to do with that. It's not that there's no correlation, but it's weak, it's very weak. It's much better to have people who have these other characteristics. Brian (30:33) Yeah, let me just, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let me connect it just a second to maybe someone who's listening who's a Scrum Master or someone like that, right? You might hear this and think, those foolish leadership people, they make these kinds of mistakes. I wouldn't make that kind of mistake. I know better than this kind of thing, right? Well, how much emphasis are you placing on whether your team knows all the details of what they should be doing in Scrum versus... helping them to know and understand each other, communicate with each other, right? How much effort and energy are you putting into those things versus the facts, right? I think that's where it can hit home for us is, these other areas, I think are, as you said, really much stronger predictors of success. And I think as Agilist, that's where we should be pouring our attention into because that's what's going to make the most significant difference. Linda Rising (31:40) Yeah. And I think since software development and I've been in it for a long time has had this really strong emphasis on smartness. We like smart people. And it's not that that's a bad thing necessarily. It's that it's not enough. So as a mathematician, you could say necessary, but not sufficient. Not even close. and that all of these researchers all said the same thing, that we thought it was going to be about smart people. We thought it was about IQ, that teams of smart people would be smart. And you and I both know that's not true. Brian (32:32) Right, right, right. I've been on some teams with some very smart people that were horrible teams. Linda Rising (32:35) Yes. Yes, yes, exactly. And I guess without belaboring it or beating it up, what's happening to me right now is that in reading about all of these different research activities, more and more things start to bubble up. that sort of are like the glue that holds all of this together. And the one that just, it just happened yesterday has to do with brainstorming. So I've been on a ramp to not, you know, I'm against brainstorming because there's plenty of evidence that it doesn't work. They've done experiments, they've said, okay, here's a group of people and they're gonna get together and they're gonna come up with ideas. Okay, we know how many ideas they came up with and whether they're any good or not. And now let's just take individuals and tell them individually, you come up with ideas and then we'll just measure. And the results are always the same, the individuals do better. So I have come up with explanations for that and I'm like, okay, well here's what. Well, I was wrong. Because in the research, it just was like an accident. I just happened to discover it in one of the papers that the groups that are intelligent, the groups that are aware, the groups that embrace failure, the groups that do well also do better at brainstorming. Why is that? Well, because everybody feels free to talk. Everybody feels psychologically safe. Everybody's aware of how other people are feeling and that impacts how they come up with ideas or think about things that other people suggest. So as a group, they do superbly at brainstorming. So it's not the brainstorming, it's the group and how they... Brian (34:43) Yeah. Ha Linda Rising (34:48) get in a room together and discuss things and share ideas. And so, you know, I hate to say this is gonna be the answer to all our prayers. And of course we still don't, we're still working on, well, how do you do this? How do you make this happen? And I remember a story. It's in fact, it's in one of the documents, I'm trying to think now on the Google website. It's a story of a team. Brian (34:58) Hahaha Yeah. Linda Rising (35:18) where the team leader tells the other people on the team that he has a terminal illness. And when he did that, everybody else on the team realized that they didn't really know anything about this guy. And they in turn began to share, well, I'm also having some struggles and here's my story. And going through that. cause that team to move up a notch, if you will, to become more intelligent, to be more aware, to suddenly be a little more respectful of how the discussions were. It was just telling stories about what you're going through so that everyone will be aware of how you feel, what you think is gonna be your... Brian (35:48) Yeah. Linda Rising (36:11) future in the next six months that they didn't have any training or study groups or they just told stories. Brian (36:26) They got to know each other as humans. And it's amazing how often we forget that that's who we work with. At least right now, we work with other human beings. And I hope that never changes, because that's where the best ideas, that's where the best creativity comes from. And yeah, it's fascinating, but you're absolutely right. I can see that point. Linda Rising (36:28) Yes, exactly. think for me, this is all, it's been really a hopeful journey because in the beginning, I wasn't even sure how it would go. I didn't know anything about the intelligence of groups. And in the beginning, it was all, okay, here's what MIT is doing and reading through, I mean, there were a lot of papers that I slogged through and it wasn't until about halfway through that, I discovered. Project Aristotle and I saw, this really connects. And now all these other things start to bubble up that really make a lot of sense. And of course, that it fits. It fits with Agile. It fits with the Agile message that the big things like that cause you, especially if you've had any experience with Agile, to sort of wake up and say, how do I miss this? Brian (37:50) Ha ha. Linda Rising (37:52) I should have seen this and it's news to me. So, wow, we're all still learning, I guess, aren't we? Brian (38:03) Yeah, I mean, you get presented with something like that and think, I've kind of intuitively known this all along, but I didn't have words for it. And now, now there's a vocabulary that can describe it. And I agree, right? That's exactly what it is. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Well, Linda, this is, this is such a fascinating discussion. And, you know, it's, I had no idea where, you know, group intelligence would lead us, but that it's all just fascinating. Linda Rising (38:09) Yeah Brian (38:32) the different threads of the spider web and where this kind of ends up. So I know it led you in a lot of places with your research and everything else. I really, really appreciate you sharing that with us and helping us to try to understand a little bit of the journey you've been on and kind of discovering this over the past year or so is what you said. Linda Rising (38:53) Yep. And I was going to say, anybody, I know most people don't want to spend the time reading the original research papers, and I don't blame you, that does take a lot of, you know, have a lot of investment in that. But there are some, I would call them sort of lightweight. There's some excellent, excellent Harvard Business Review articles that do a very good job of talking about. what is happening at MIT, what is happening at Google, that kind of a high-level summary, like Harvard Business Review does that like nobody else. And of course, there are TED Talks that Amy Edmondson has given, and there are all the Google Talks, of course, are also out on YouTube. And she has been to Google as well, so you can go listen to what she has to say there. So if you want to dig into this for yourself, there's a lot that you can get without having to read the book or read all the research papers. Brian (39:57) Yeah, we'll try to link to as much of this as we can in the show notes of this. So anyone who's listening, if you want to go down one of these rabbit holes like we talked about, maybe we can point the direction and say, hey, try this one. So we'll also include in the show notes some links to some of Linda's work as well so that you can find out more about her and maybe read one of her books as well and see some of the Linda Rising (40:11) Yeah! Brian (40:27) some of the insights she's already brought to this Agile community. And if you like what you heard here, I know you'll like her books as well. So Linda, thank you so much for making your time. I know it's very busy. Thank you for coming on the show. Linda Rising (40:41) It's been my pleasure. Can we close with some good wishes, some thoughts and prayers for all the people who are in Western North Carolina or in Florida who have just been two horrible disasters and are going to be a long time recovering. And that includes my good friend and co-writer Mary Lynn Mans who's in Asheville, North Carolina. So fingers crossed, prayers, good thoughts. Brian (41:11) Absolutely. I wholeheartedly concur with you on that. So I agree. Well, thanks again, Linda.

Join us as we explore how Agile in Color is breaking down barriers in the Agile community and empowering people of color through mentorship, support, and leadership. Learn how you can be an ally and foster a more inclusive environment in your own Agile journey. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner is joined by Nosa Oyegun and Luria Lindauer from Agile in Color to discuss the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion within the Agile community. They dive into the mission of Agile in Color, barriers to entry and success for people of color in Agile, and the role of allies in fostering a more inclusive industry. The conversation also highlights the power of mentorship, vulnerability, and community support to drive meaningful change in organizations. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to engage with Agile in Color and contribute to the movement for a more diverse Agile community. References and resources mentioned in the show: Nosa Oyegun Louria Lindauer Agile in Color The Canary Code by Ludmila N. Praslova, PhD Email For Details of Coaching with Mountain Goat Software Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Nosa Oyegun has over 15 years of experience, and is a seasoned Agile Coach passionate about empowering cross-functional teams, removing impediments, and championing customer-centric solutions. Skilled in Agile frameworks like Scrum and Kanban, she focuses on fostering collaboration, driving value delivery, and nurturing growth for individuals, teams, and executives. Louria Lindauer is a dynamic enterprise strategist and coach with over 25 years of experience, known for transforming complex challenges into clear, actionable solutions. Certified in DEI strategy, Agility, and Emotional Intelligence Leadership, she helps leaders build vision, empathy, and bold organizational cultures where courageous truth and sustainable change thrive. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in, Agile Mentors. We are back. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. And today, I have with me actually two guests. I know, you're shocked, right? I only ever really usually have one, but I have two. Two for the price of one today, right? I have with me Nosa Oyegun and Luria Lindauer. Welcome in, guys. Nosa Oyegun (00:27) Thank you. Thank you for having us. Louria Lindauer (00:30) Yes. Brian (00:30) Delighted, absolutely delighted to have you guys here. And I hope I said your names correctly. If I didn't, please correct me. OK, awesome. Well, for the listeners, I did get help before. just so you know. But we're here because both Nosa and Luria work for, or are associated with, I should say, associated with an organization called Agile in Color. Nosa Oyegun (00:37) You nailed it. Louria Lindauer (00:38) You did. You did it. Brian (00:56) And I've known several people that have been in and around and involved with that organization. And I just thought it would be a good idea to have them come on and tell us a little bit about it and kind of help us understand a little bit about the mission and purpose there, what they're trying to accomplish with Agile and Color. So let's start with that. Give us kind of a, if you had to describe it, why does Agile and Color exist? Nosa Oyegun (01:24) I would say Agile and Color exists for people who look like us, right? Now, does it include everybody? Yes, we do have members who do not necessarily look like us on the outside, but we all bleed red, right? And so it is a group of like-minded individuals who have come together and said, how do we support our community? How do we support those who are already in the industry? And how do we support those who are trying to get into the industry? Because one of the things that we've realized within the community is there are so many people who might want to get into the industry, but do not have the resources. And so we consider ourselves that resource hub to be able to allow and say, hey, why don't you reach out to this? Why don't you contact this? But that is the sole purpose of being able to mentor and be mentored, just like you always say, Brian. Brian (02:15) Love it, love it, thank you. Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome. That's a great mission and a great purpose. I know, in today's world, I think there's a lot of confusion around kind of the diversity, equity, inclusion kind of whole topic area and maybe some controversy that may be unfounded and just kind of silly. I'm just kind of curious. I mentioned both your perspectives on this. Why do you feel like really that diversity, equity, inclusiveness, why do you feel like that's an important thing for Agilist, for Agile teams, for Agile organizations? Louria Lindauer (02:48) Hmm. Okay, so this is one of my loves. do a lot of push-packing inclusion. It's important for no matter who you look like for everyone. I'm sure you love a sport. What sport do you love? Okay, so you go with a group. Brian (03:14) gosh, football. Football's my sport. Louria Lindauer (03:18) Going with me to a sporting event, I'm not your people, right? But you wanna go with your people. You wanna go have some fun so you don't have to explain why the ball just went out of bounds and why he's down, is he hurt? And I'm asking all these goofy questions, right? And the reason it's so important is because we need diversity of thought. Because in any, like let's think of a group and let's take away the one dimensional just color, which it is very important. That is a important part. It's a part of who I am as a human being. We are multi-dimensional. I'm sure that you're just not Brian. I'm sure you're just like Brian with the glasses. There's so much that encompasses you. know, like me, I'm a mom, I'm a daughter. You know, I'm an agilism diversity, I include them so many different things. And to be able to have that diversity of thought allows us to have cross-functional teams. But the biggest thing is it's a sense of belonging. So I don't have to explain why maybe my hair is like this or the challenges that I embrace in an organization. There's systematic discriminations in almost all organizations. Because that's just where we, as we change, there's still things that were a certain way. And so now what's important is that we start to recognize those. And you may not see them. So like, I'll give you an example. If you came, well, I was gonna say to my dinner, but my family's very diverse. My dad is... white and Jewish. But anyway, if you go to where I am, you know, into my family and we were in a group, I'm the majority. And so we welcome you in. In the organizations, Aladi's organization, was the only, I have a background in South American, the only Black woman, period. And as we move higher, it becomes very lonely. And even CEOs become lonely because they're the only one. Brian (04:47) Hahaha. Louria Lindauer (05:15) And so when we get together, it's about leadership opportunities, but it's also about that sense of belonging. We can talk about things that other people may not understand. Because this is about people of color as well that come and we can share. It's so important to have a place where we can talk about the things we want to talk about, just like you want to talk about football facts without explaining to me all that stuff I don't understand. Brian (05:40) Right, right, that makes sense. Nosa, anything that you would add to that? Nosa Oyegun (05:43) would even say that the interesting part about it is, like Loria alluded to, is the fact that we all have the story. And so when we all get into the room, what's that shared story that doesn't create that imposter syndrome? Or just that life experience? I can look at Loria and say, hey, I'm having a bad hair day, and she knows what I'm talking about. And so it's the beauty of having that shared experience and being able to say, it's a safe space. You can talk about your fears and we can lock arms together and make this happen for you. Brian (06:23) Yeah, now this is so good. Yeah. Yeah, please. Louria Lindauer (06:23) And can I add one more thing is the beauty also, Nosa and I are very different also. So I learned from her. She has a totally different background from me. A lot of people think because we're all per se like black, we come from very different. I have a friend, she's Nigerian and she came here at a very young age and she did not understand why people were like almost, she felt targeted. as a Black person. She was like, what is going on with all of these isms and race? I don't get it. And so that very different experience opens up insights and perspectives that even happen with people of the same color because people know that people are different. We're all different. Yeah. Brian (07:13) That's really good. I mean, for the listeners here, I mean, I wanna be real, right? I want us to have some honest discussion here because I think you have to have honest discussion here when we talk about things like this. what you guys said, I think is a really important consideration because we all have our own. kind of biases that we may not even be aware of. And even saying that word, I know there's probably some people who are listening who think, OK, now you're calling me this. No, I'm not trying to place a label on anyone, right? If you can set that aside for a moment, set aside the triggering and just not allow yourself to go to that place for just a moment and just consider, right? The point you make is a great one that we tend to want to find likeness, right? We want to have someone we identify with that that person's like me, so they understand me. They know what I'm going through. They know my considerations. In the past, what I would hear a lot in organizations is this term about they're not a good culture fit, right? Somebody is not a good culture fit. And that kind of language can sometimes, you know, kind of belie something underneath it. It's like, they're just not like us. And, you know, that's the issue, right? That's not a problem that they're not like you. That's actually a strength, right? That's a good thing. You don't want everyone all thinking the same. Nosa Oyegun (08:47) Yeah. Exactly. Diversity matters. Brian (09:01) You want people who, yeah, that bring different perspectives, different paths, different cultures, that makes us better. So I really hope people consider that, right? And like I said, we all have sort of innate bias. That doesn't mean racism. That just means bias. Right, everyone. I mean, we talk about bias in product owner classes that, you know, like, Louria Lindauer (09:08) Yep. Okay. everyone. Brian (09:30) a sunk cost fallacy and things like that. That's a bias, you know, and we all have biases whether we recognize them or not. And I think part of the effort in this, from my perspective, is just trying to recognize and overcome those things in all of us, right? Trying to say, where is that boundary line for me? And how do I push past that, right? Nosa Oyegun (09:32) Mm-hmm. Louria Lindauer (09:55) I would also say there's an awareness that you, my lived experience may be different than yours. And if something happened to me and it didn't happen to you, that it doesn't make it real. So I don't think Brian, you will ever understand the pain of having a baby, but you might just say it's fine. No, it is not. It is you worst pain and you can't describe it. It's something that instead of, if someone feels Nosa Oyegun (10:07) Correct. Louria Lindauer (10:24) Like if you say something and I feel hurt by it, the always say impact supersedes intent is to listen. And now you become the student. This person also has to speak up and say why that is offensive. And the other person say, it's not really about you. It might be that I got ran over by a bike once and then you say something and it triggers a trauma in me. And so that, you know, when I say, tell people, and if I told no, this is I have to work 150 % as a black woman to, I still, have all these degrees and certifications and years and years. I won't tell my age, years and years, right? And I still, they're like, really? And the other thing, we're talking to a community of practice right now, Agilist, okay? It is how sometimes, how you're in an organization and they're like, there goes those agile people. I know we've all heard it. Like don't pretend like you have, Brian (10:56) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Louria Lindauer (11:23) point to you, you've heard it. And the engineering are like, man, here comes his out-y'all coach. It's that type of And if you could step into that, it's just a different context is that it's there. And biases are also, we all have them. And sometimes it is a meaning of safety because something happened to us. know, like my daughter is, she's a teenager, she always says like, teens are bad because she saw teenagers doing bad things. Nosa Oyegun (11:34) Absolutely. Louria Lindauer (11:53) I'm like, but you're a teenager. That's just a bias that she has. culture fit, I heard you talk about culture fit. Culture fit, sometimes, like Southwest did this. Southwest did where they wanted people who were open-minded and had an agile mindset. Okay? They wanted that leadership. If you came in with a fixed mindset, you didn't fit that culture. But however, what you're alluding to is sometimes people use culture fit. in another way. There's always a yin and a yang, right? And so it's the one that is not right where we're like, it's the culture of it. And, you know, and that's called like a halo bias where we look at people. You can have a HR person and they'll hire 15 new people. And I've had this and I'm in the room and I'm like, all these people, they have different skin colors, but they all are you. They all like they're, they're all introverts. They're all this. They're, Nosa Oyegun (12:21) way. Yep. Brian (12:23) Right. Yeah. Louria Lindauer (12:49) cultural values are the same. They care about labels, they care about power and all these things, they wanna be on time. I'm like, you just hired a bunch of yous. So there's no diversity. And so we still can do that. Diversity and equity inclusion is more than just outside and we look indifferent. Cause I can just hire a bunch of me's and you still won't go anywhere. You know what I mean? Yeah. Nosa Oyegun (12:58) Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Brian (13:13) Right, right. Well, so I want to ask you guys this because there's a there's I did some research earlier this year and read this book called The Canary Code that was really focused more on neurodiversity and kind of inclusion programs for the neurodiverse. But one of the things that kind of resonated with me that they pulled from that book that was really something that they pulled from more racial diversity, equity, inclusion programs. was that they divided up to saying that what we're trying to identify is that there are barriers to entry and there's barriers to success. And that started to really resonate with me that there's barriers to just getting your foot in the door. And then there's the barriers that once I'm there, that prevent me from actually being successful. So how does Agile and Color really help in those situations? How do they help with barriers to entry and barriers to success? Nosa Oyegun (13:52) Absolutely. First thing I would say is just knowing who you are as an individual. Because it's one thing for us to say, hey, I'm an agilist and I'm in this group, okay, fine. But do I go back to the fact that my foundation, I do have the degrees that I need, the certifications that I need, the education that I need, the experience that I need, the community that I need, right? To thrive in this space that I'm trying to get into. because again, goes back to that imposter syndrome, right? You have an interview, you have a panel interview, and you have nobody in there that looks like you. And you wonder, okay, am I in the right space? Am I in the right place? You know, would they even hear? For example, a lawyer alluded to this. I am originally, my family was originally from Nigeria. A lot of times people joke and they say, no, so you don't have an accent. And I'm like, well, because, you know, but people expect. that if you're talking to a Nigerian or someone who was originally from Nigeria, they have a thick accent. Well, I don't. And actually sometimes don't understand people who do, believe it or not. And so, you you walk into a boardroom or you walk into a meeting and I have to literally program my mindset. so Agile in Color, one of the things we do again that being mentored and mentoring is saying, who are you? Right? Take away your... Brian (15:16) haha Nosa Oyegun (15:34) limitations, take away the fact that even you're an agilist, put that to the side. Who are you? You you're empowered to do great things. You're empowered to succeed. You're empowered to thrive in whatever organization you choose to go into. And so being able to, again, lock arms together and support each other and remind each other of who we are innately first, and then add on that layer of not only do you know your stuff, right, but you're also educated. Louria Lindauer (15:40) Okay. Nosa Oyegun (16:02) You're also learned and you're in a community. And that's where our group as a community of practice is really essential. Because when you start hearing other people's stories, know, there are times that we have meetings and we're like, this happened at work and this, this, this. And we're like, you're not the only one that didn't know that. And so again, just being able to come together, remember who we are, one. Two, realize that we do have the skill set to thrive in whatever organization. And then three, to say we have a community that is a safe space. And so Agile and College provides those three steps, right, and more. To say you can come together and meet other people. Yes, we may have been in the industry for years and decades, but I always joke about the fact that Louria Lindauer (16:41) Yes. Okay. Nosa Oyegun (16:47) Only people who are below six feet below ground level stop learning. We all learn every single day. Brian (16:54) Very true, very well said. Louria Lindauer (16:54) Yeah. And we also have some very specific programs, like she was talking about coaching and mentoring. I mentor, I'm professional coach. And also we have a coaching, you can be coached. And that's Noza was talking about, that who you are. So when someone is new, I mentor some very young Agilist. And we have them come in, we set them up with a mentor, and they walk through the program. And we're also in a transition where we're rebuilding a lot of things at Algencolor right now, especially with the change in agility right now. And teaching people how can we use the skills that we have as Algenlists and remarket ourselves. But then we walk. This we help them. I've helped them learn how to interview but a lot of it's self-confidence working on imposter syndrome And we do these one-on-one mentors and coaching. We also have something called colorful voices where I think it notes that she was at the one in new orleans was it Was in global scrum gathering and will be at one in munich in may 2025 And so we help people colorful voices is helping people who have never really maybe spoken, you know, they've never done a speech Nosa Oyegun (17:52) Yes. Louria Lindauer (18:07) And we help them figure out how do you do that and getting seen to help you through the door. And then we also, because I've had that journey of how do I move up and around? That's what the mentoring is so special about. How do we do that? And the frustration of, you know, some people really want to give up that that being down and you hit a ceiling, it can make you want to give up. it's like. When do we transition? So that coaching and mentoring is really deep and we created a strategy and a plan for people and we walked through, but we do coaching and mentoring because you have to do self and you also have to do techniques because you can have all the techniques in the world. But if you don't know your impact and how to be a leader, okay, thanks. I've been led by super smart with tech and they have no emotional intelligence. And it's like, no, thank you. Please don't do that to me. Nosa Oyegun (18:56) Yeah. Yeah. One more gathering that we host as well, share your story. And so we bring in like-minded individuals in the agile space and they could be anywhere from non-tech roles, right, to in the tech space, but have some agile component in there and different roles. So not just coaches. So we have product owners, we have developers, anyone. The beauty about that is you get to see someone. Brian (18:58) Hahaha. Okay. Nosa Oyegun (19:24) who may not have started on a traditional path or maybe has to share their story and their journey. And then what I love about Share Your Story is the person who shares then nominates the next person to share. And so that just builds that community of, yeah, I know somebody else who may have a different path, but has also been through something that is worth sharing. And so, yeah, so several opportunities. Brian (19:39) That's awesome. Nosa Oyegun (19:53) And again, like Luria alluded to is because we're in that transitional phase in the season right now with leadership and all the things, we're also looking outside the box because we have some organizations that are saying, Agile is no longer relevant. And we're like, hold on. If you have to make a decision, you have to think through the process. It is a process. It's a framework. It's not, you know, just established. And so being able to recreate and reinvent ourselves and say, Brian (20:09) You Nosa Oyegun (20:22) Hey, do we need to incorporate change in here? Do we need to incorporate AI in here? Do we need to incorporate something else that makes our role more relevant and makes each person more marketable within their organization? So those are things we're considering in this moment. Brian (20:38) Yeah, that's great. There's a lot there, I think, for anyone who's listening who thinks, hey, maybe this could be of help to me in some way, shape, or form. I think that's a great job of explaining some of the kinds of ways that maybe Agile and color can be helpful. And maybe that is part of that barriers to entry, right? Just helping people, giving them that friend. friend, right? The kind of support. They can say, hey, it's someone like me. I think your example, Luria, about giving birth is a great one, right? Because I can sympathize, I can hold your hand and bring you a towel. I can do all these things, but I can't know what it feels like. I can't understand it from the same perspective. And if you want sympathy, you're going to feel better. if you get it from someone who's gone through it, right? You're gonna respect that person's opinion more than you would mine, because all I have experienced is the same thing that you have if you haven't gone through it, you know? So that's a great example to kind of make for this. Kind of flip a little bit, because we talked a little bit about how this can help people in some of the programs you guys offer that would help individuals. But I know there's gonna be a lot, you know, There's a lot of people that look like me as well that are out there that hear this and think, you know what, I support this. I want to do what I can do. I, you know, we understand, like, I think there's a lot of us that understand, hey, no one's saying that we need to be the Superman to come in and solve the problem. But, you know, we can ally, we can come alongside and say, Louria Lindauer (22:05) Yeah Brian (22:29) How can I be supportive? How can I make an impact in this area as well? What can I do? So what would you say to those kind of people who aren't people of color, but would support Agile and Color and want to see it grow and succeed? Louria Lindauer (22:43) Bring it on down. We have someone actually on our core team, Matt Carlson. And we are going to have, as we're transitioning, allyship. How you can come in, how you can help. And as an ally, they also get help as well. We need allies, no matter where we are. And we'll have some allyship training as well of what does it mean to be an ally, because we've had that. in the past where we've helped allies with, I really want to help and how do I, how am I an ally? What is the best ways? What do I need to learn? And so it's very important that we have allies where there is with organizations or, you know, it's, it's about that complete circle. You know, we need all people to help, you know, it's like a family. And then we have, we have extended, you know, like there's, have the allies of, you know, agile in color. I remember When I was a kid, would walk down the street and then it was safe. Okay, so please people don't call the police on my parents. They're too old for that. while I was like nine years old, I could walk to the store, it safe. But along the way, there was people who were always watching me. They were on the porches and they'd be like, bring me something and bring me this. But they watched me all the way to the store. And I came back. Those were my allies, my family allies. So it takes a community, it takes a village to... Nosa Oyegun (23:44) You Louria Lindauer (24:09) create change and to do things. So we more than welcome allies. And Matt is an amazing ally. Also, the important part of allies is that they give a perspective that we may not see. I always say that sometimes when it is my issue, if it's really close to my heart, I look at people like a tree and I'm, you you can see my whole tree. Nosa Oyegun (24:15) AMAZING! Louria Lindauer (24:34) But if I'm on that issue, I see the veins in the leaves. Like I'm not on the branches. I'm all the way in the veins. And it's the only part I can see. And so sometimes we need those different perspectives to be able to get it like, never thought about that. And that has really helped us a lot with, did you think about this? Or maybe this as well. And we're like, yeah, we never thought about that. And so that helped we educate one another. What do you think, Nosy? Yeah. Brian (25:00) That's so awesome. That's so awesome. Help me then just I'll throw one last thing you guys direction. In thinking about kind of where we are today and we've come a ways but we have a ways to go still. What do you see as sort of the biggest challenges today, the biggest hurdles that we've yet to really Nosa Oyegun (25:01) Yeah, absolutely. Brian (25:30) overcome that's really holding this back. Louria Lindauer (25:36) What do you mean by this? This? do mean this? Brian (25:38) Well, holding diversity, equity, inclusion, holding people... Louria Lindauer (25:42) You can. That's a great. Brian (25:44) barriers in either sense of the word. what are we not doing very, especially in the agile world, like what are we not doing very well right now that we really need to do better? Nosa Oyegun (25:57) Now, Brian, how much time do you have? That's the question. So, yeah. So here's what I'll say. And this is the NOSA version because again, that experience of, we have a different experience based on our backgrounds, right? So, and I think Loretta alluded to it earlier saying, well, my background, remember people saying minority. I'm like, who you calling minority? I'm not minority because where I'm from, I'm not minority, right? And so when I hear... Brian (26:00) Hahaha! Louria Lindauer (26:01) I'll say we are out of this. Brian (26:24) Right. Nosa Oyegun (26:26) even the term people of color and I'm like we're all a color you know that and this is what I love about our t-shirt right because it's a spectrum right and so going back to your question there is beyond the outside beyond the exterior the question becomes how do we unify and support each other like truly genuinely support each other because everyone always brings something priceless to the table. There's a reason why we all have a unique thumbprint. What I'm great at and what I excel at and what my strengths are, most likely not Loria's strengths. And so if I bring my strengths to the table and I am vulnerable and bring my weaknesses to the table as well, and my weaknesses are Loria's strengths, then we lock arms together and we make this happen. And so two things I would highlight is one, being vulnerable to say, I really don't understand this. Can I get some support? Can I get some help? Can I get some partnership? And then two, that encouragement of not saying, why don't you know this? You've been in the industry for five years. You should know this by now. There's no need to shame each other. Neither is there a need to say, because Brian is of a different hue, he needs to be in the C-suite office and I need to be in the back. No, it needs to be, we all bleed red. let's get out of our mindsets about this whole external thing and let's begin to truly and genuinely support each other as humans. One of the things I love, friend of mine always says is she's like, let's just be human. Let's just be kind and let's be there for each other because at the end of the day, there's so much going on in our world, right? But if we can truly be human and truly say, how can I live in a space where I can support someone else? And then how can I be vulnerable as well, regardless of who am in my career path? We can make things happen. Louria Lindauer (28:26) I have to, I love that note. I love the vulnerability because it's really, it is so important in the agile world and it's sometimes harder for organizations. And it's really hard for the minority or a person of color to do that because they don't want us to do it. They don't, sometimes it's just hard to be yourself because You know, there was a time when being LGBTQ or black, was frowned upon. I couldn't wear my hair like this. She couldn't wear her hair like that to work. There was a time where my best friend's a guy, he couldn't wear a beer. You can wear a beer because you had to be clean shaven. And the biggest fear, and I love this question, is people don't want to change. People like the same old same old. I've seen Agile is so hardcore Agile and they come in with all their Agile speak and they're doing, and they're not listening to the team that's right in front of them. Yes. Nosa Oyegun (29:17) I job police. Brian (29:19) Yeah. Louria Lindauer (29:20) They don't see, they're not aware, they don't have group awareness of what is happening and the impact. They go to these classes and grade and they come back and they try to just push. You don't wanna push, you wanna pull. You want people to be coming towards you so they're pulling. They're like, okay, okay, okay. I don't wanna push all my stuff on them. I want them to be pulling me towards. And so one thing right now with diversity, people don't want to change. It feels safe. If I was the majority and you told me I had to change and I'm like, why? know, sometimes that's hard when you're comfortable. So people are like, But now, thank goodness, I can actually look at people who are not my same color and say, buckle up, buttercup, because now you get to feel what I feel because that's so important in the agile community. It is Brian (30:10) You Louria Lindauer (30:17) taking your experience as an Agilist today and how it feels and saying, this is my experience, I wonder if someone else feels like that. Really taking the time to do that. And I think we do it better in Agile communities where we do the doing and the being. I'm not saying all Agilists, okay, but when we really embrace, the being is so important because sometimes we're technically strong and we gotta get better at that leadership mindset of emotional intelligence. Nosa Oyegun (30:34) I'm going to go Louria Lindauer (30:47) and being able to say, we need to change. Because if we we're going to get left behind. But in the same thing, know that you might be hurting someone. And to be curious, we need to get more curious, less defensive, and listen. Like, shut up and listen. Just be quiet. Listen. Nosa Oyegun (31:05) Exactly. Yeah. I actually coin. No, I was going to just add this real quick. actually coined my role as an agile coach as a therapist. And it's interesting because my colleague and I joke about the fact because I have a master's degree in psychology and she says, see, I wish I did that. And I say this to Laura's point is a lot of times people just want to be heard. And in addition to that is not just being heard. But what are they not saying that they're really saying by being quiet? Brian (31:08) I was thinking that too, the whole time. Sorry, go ahead. Ha Nosa Oyegun (31:36) Listen for that as well. Brian (31:36) That's so good, that's so good. Yeah, and I was just gonna say that it sounds like maybe we just need to all start by listening a little bit better to each other and seeking first to listen rather than to be heard. And if we can do that, then it's so much easier to understand each other and understand and help each other, right? Nosa Oyegun (32:00) Absolutely. Louria Lindauer (32:01) Yeah, let's lock arms and then let's take action that is agreed upon between us. So sometimes in the lead is called I can leave from behind and doesn't and I'm leading from the front, but we're still there or we're leading side by side. And to listen that maybe Brian, you're the one I need to listen to for this moment. And I'm just still there supporting you. It doesn't matter. We're all leaders. So how do we so that we all get what we need because a lot of people, awareness is great. Please start there first. Please don't move into action if you're not aware. Like go back. But sometimes we just stick, we get stuck in awareness. It's time now for action and it doesn't have to be this huge thing. Sometimes just a mentoring program and a hiring process instead of hiring a bunch of people of color and then they're now in this environment that kind of is awful and then the retention rates. We see that all the time. But having a mentor when you come in to help you and also work on the actual change in the culture, because maybe it is kind of, you know, messed up because sometimes a lot of companies, and I know this isn't your company if you're watching this, they are about money. So that is they won't mess with this very toxic, awful environment. And I'm not talking about diversity. can conclude I'm talking about for everybody in there because it's a money, moneymaker. And so then it has this toxic environment. And so us as Agilent, Nosa Oyegun (33:14) Yes. Louria Lindauer (33:28) can't help. And that's why at Agile and Color, we're starting to transition to how we can use our skills in project management, change management, because our skills are all the ones that they use anyway. just start. If you're looking for a job and you're an Agile coach, look now for change management, else? Project manager. They just change. And then if you look in the thing, job descriptions. just. Nosa Oyegun (33:36) Exactly. Yeah, very fluid. Mm-hmm. Just changed the title. Louria Lindauer (33:52) hype up that resume with more change management and those type of things because they can't get rid of that we need to do things quicker and faster and be human. They'll never get rid of that. Brian (34:04) That's awesome. I love the phrase too that you said there earlier, just about like it's a time for action. And I think that's a great way for us to kind of wrap up. if the people out there, if you hear this and agree, hey, it's time, I'm ready to act. I'm ready to not just stand up by the sidelines. Then what we're gonna do is we're gonna put a link in our show notes that will put you in touch with Agilent Color. And I encourage you, if you're a person of color or if you are interested in being an ally in some way for Agile and Color, I encourage you to reach out to them. They're a great organization. I'm really happy to have you guys on to share some of that vision and to spread the awareness a little bit of it. I can't thank you enough. Thank you for making your time and coming by and speaking with us. Nosa Oyegun (34:57) Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. And for the platform that you all do here, it's amazing just to see not just the topic, but the diversity of the topics as well, Brian. So thank you. Louria Lindauer (34:58) Thank you. Brian (35:10) Thank you so much. Louria Lindauer (35:10) Thank you.

Explore the dynamic future of work with Brian Milner and Heather McGowan as they discuss the essential shifts in mindset and culture needed to thrive in the augmented era. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner interviews Heather McGowan, a renowned future of work strategist, about the rapidly changing landscape of work in the augmented era. Heather emphasizes the importance of adaptation, empathy, and human connection in response to technological, societal, and cultural shifts. They discuss the pervasive issue of loneliness in the workplace and the critical role of leaders in fostering a culture of trust, agency, and high expectations to drive performance and productivity. Heather also shares insights on finding personal purpose and intrinsic motivation to excel in the future of work. This conversation provides valuable strategies for individuals and leaders to navigate the evolving work environment successfully. References and resources mentioned in the show: Heather McGowan Heather’s Website The Adaptation Advantage by Heather McGowan & Chris Shipley The Empathy Advantage by Heather McGowan & Chris Shipley The UpSwing by Robert Putnam Agile Training for Teams & Leaders Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Heather McGowan is a leading strategist and keynote speaker on the Future of Work, known for transforming mindsets and organizations with her insights on continuous learning, leadership, and culture. Her groundbreaking approach has empowered employees, enhanced leaders' effectiveness through empathy, and driven businesses to achieve their goals in a rapidly evolving market. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back with you for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today we have someone I'm very, very excited to have on. She was the keynote speaker that kicked off our Scrum Gathering in New Orleans this year. It's Ms. Heather McGowan. So welcome in, Heather. Heather (00:20) Hey there, thanks so much for having Brian (00:23) I'm so excited to have Heather in. If you're not familiar with Heather's work, she has, think, the best job title I think I've ever heard. She is the future of work strategist. And like I said, that's awesome. I love that. But beyond that, there's a lot that I could say about Heather to introduce her to you. But I'll give you a couple of things just so you kind of understand the perspective of her coming home. First, She was named one of the top 50 female futurists by Forbes. So let that sink in. She also has two incredible books out there. One called The Adaptation Advantage. has more than two books, two recent books. The Adaptation Advantage, Let Go, Learn Fast, and Thrive in the Future of Work. That's one. And her latest one that just came out recently, it's called The Empathy Advantage. leading the empowered workforce. And I'm very, excited to have her on because her talk at the Scrum Gathering really captured my imagination. And I think everyone's imagination there. so let's just dive in, Heather. Let's talk about this whole concept of the future of work. And I think one of the ways you started in the presentation, I think, was really important to try to understand where we are on the timeline of the work. the way we have progressed through ways of working. So where are we? Where would you put us on the timeline? Heather (01:57) Yeah, so first of all, the title, Future Work Strategist, was not something I applied for. It's a title. Brian (02:03) Really? Because I want to fill out that job application. Heather (02:07) It's a title I created because I felt like there was a need for many of us to be working in looking at the future work, which is something that will never be done. It often gets conflated with being about where we work or DEI issues, but really it is about those things. But for me, it's about leadership, it's about workforce, it's about learning, it's about adaptation, it's about purpose. It's about adapting right now pretty rapid changes that are not only technological, but societal and cultural and demographic and generational. And we're wrestling with just a lot of change at once. one of the things I say to folks is sometimes I think that the majority of what we're going to be doing in the near term is helping each other adapt. Because we're to have to adapt at a clip we've never had to adapt to before. Prior generations had maybe one paradigm shifting change in a generation. Now we might have three or four. Brian (03:02) Yeah. Heather (03:03) So in terms of where we are, we had the agricultural era and the industrial era and the information era. Well, we're now in the augmented era. So we're dealing with technology consuming tasks that we do at a faster and faster clip. And a lot of people kind of catastrophize it about technology taking away jobs. We're the only species that would invent things to make ourselves irrelevant. that's how what people, but it doesn't make any sense. What we're really doing is inventing technologies that augment our potential. And it requires us to not only learn and adapt and think about differently about who we are, which is what the adaptation advantage was really about, but how do we relate to each other? How do we get the best out of each other? And that's really what the empathy advantage was about. So we're in the augmented era. Technology is going to continue to come at a faster and faster clip. But it's more important for us to think about how we learn and adapt and how we lean into our uniquely human skills. Because... The technology can provide the answers, but it's up to us to find the questions. Brian (04:04) That's awesome. Yeah. I think that's such an excellent point that, you know, just trying to think about the fact that, yes, in previous generations, there may have been one paradigm shifting kind of change that comes through a lifetime in the way that we work. But in our lifetimes, we've dealt with the Internet coming on board and we've dealt with multiple revolutions since then, mobile and AI. And these things happen. it's such a greater clip that it really does shift even even things like COVID changing, a lot of places working from home previously was always in the office. It seems like change is the constant now and that change is kind of the thing that we need to get good at is being adaptive and able to change. Why do you feel like, I'm just kind of curious of your opinion on this, why do feel like we're so resistant as humans to just change in general? Heather (05:00) I think we have a fear of obsolescence. then in times like right now, I delve into this sometimes in some of my talks, is we're going through some pretty significant division and polarization. It's really acute in the US, but it's happening all over the world. You look at the elections in France and the UK recently. I think it's important to understand how that happened because a lot of people think that's just social media. And technology did come into play, but if you look back in the US anyway in the 70s and 80s, that's when we started to see a real erosion in our social fabric. We started having fewer people over for dinner and being part of fewer fewer clubs, talking to our neighbors less. So we got more and more isolated. And then we had a loneliness epidemic that's been around for at least a decade or so, which, and when you're lonely, your amygdala, the kind of reptilian part of your brain goes into overdrive. So you go into fight or flight mode. So you have a lot of change, isolation, fight or flight mode, and then you throw in social media that kind of catastrophizes things. And we're all in this us versus them mode. And we've stopped seeing, hearing each other. And one of my messages in almost all my talks is we have so much more in common than we have in difference. They show lots of studies from it. So if we just could start talking to each other again, we may not vote for the same candidate. We don't vote for the same teams, but we both love the sport. And that's what we need to get back to is understanding how much we have in common because so much of the work we're going to be doing, especially when technology comes in, is communication, collaboration, exploration. And all of those things require us to relate to each other because you're going to see something that I don't see. And if I only hired people who think like me, it would be tragic because I wouldn't see the entirety of the opportunity. So if you want to really drive profitable growth in your company, you want those diversities of inputs and you want to set a culture that has people see and hear each other so you can see optimally the opportunity space. And because that's what we're going to be doing. It's most of the work we're going be doing. Brian (06:55) Yeah, yeah, this is a fascinating fact to me because I, one of the things I start in your presentation is just this idea about loneliness. And I absolutely agree. You know, there's, I think we all can kind of recognize that even though we've tried to create these social media companies that to try to, you know, get a, gain a stronger sense of connection in some ways it's driven the opposite of this sort of loneliness factor. But I'm curious from from some sort of a sociological perspective, that has, it seems, transferred into our workplace. And I know one of your stats there was about how we feel more lonely at work. And I'm just curious, what do you think is driving that, the kind of sense of loneliness that we have while at Heather (07:48) Yeah, know, some folks will point that to being about where we work. That's not my area of expertise. There plenty of people who look at where we work. That may be a factor for some folks if you're working remotely and you don't see other people, certainly a factor. But what I think what's really happening is we've outsized what work is in our lives. So community used to consist of social interactions, religious affiliations. clubs and groups we belong to, all of those kind of, if you think of them as circles, because everything's visual to me, all those circles shrank and work became bigger. So now part of it's generational change, but more and more people are looking for work to provide their purpose, work to provide most of their relationships, work to fill these. So it's a little bit in terms of how we're interacting with each other that's causing the loneliness, but it's also an outsize expectation we have around work. So now it becomes table stakes for a lot of organizations for work to be my self -expression, work to be my sense of purpose, work to be where I think about my values. And it wasn't like that a few decades ago. Brian (08:49) Yeah. Yeah, that's, I just, I love that point. think you're absolutely hitting the nail on the head with that. And, and, know, just so everyone listening doesn't, doesn't misinterpret this in any way, you know, we're not, we're not saying in any way that those other kinds of organizations like churches or community groups or anything are bad or that you shouldn't see community and those kinds of things. It's just that our society has sort of moved away from those as being the foundational, places where we get community and you're I absolutely agree. is, work has sort of filled that. Sort of analogous, I think, to the way that police have become the front line of our mental health, Heather (09:27) Mental health, yeah, exactly. Exactly, and that's not fair to the police and they're not prepared to do that and, you know, we suffer. I think the point with work is that that is where we are. So if you're leading an organization today, that is a reality. I hope that changes. I'm a big fan of Robert Putnam. He wrote Bullying Alone in the late 90s and he pointed out the sort of phrase we're having in ourselves, of fabric. He had another book that came out in, I think it was 2020 or 2021, in the middle of pandemic where he... which was called the upswing, where he says we go through these kind of, you you think about it like a pendulum, we go through periods of high collectivism, you know, the kind of the eye to the we. And we're at the highest, you know, the lowest level of the we and the highest level of the eye in terms of being isolated and all that we do. And we're primed to go back into a we phase. So I'll be interested to see what forms of community start to emerge because we're primed to have that happen. Soon, like I notice is a, live most of the time in Florida, part of the time in Massachusetts. It's a restaurant I go to in Florida. And I was like, why do we love that restaurant so much? I do like the food. It's very good. But it has a situation that an empty seat is is a, is anywhere you could sit. So if I come in by myself or with one other person, they would sit me at the table with one other person or two or 300 people. It's community seating. So you end up sitting with people that you don't know having conversations. It's kind of like a forced community. It's fantastic. Brian (10:53) Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. I mean, I will say, you know, the introvert part of me is like, I don't want to sit down. Right. Yeah. I identify with that. Yeah. Awesome. Well, so if we have this problem, right, we're dealing with, with a fear of change. We're dealing with a work in place that is lonelier than it's ever been. And we were dealing with a population that's seeking belongings, sinking. Heather (10:59) I'm an introvert too, but when I'm forced, it's good for me. Brian (11:23) connection and community while at work. I think you're right that that has a profound impact on the way we work even. And I know you talked a little bit about just kind of the main drivers of productivity, the main drivers of being successful. And I think that this is maybe counterintuitive to what some people think. Help us, talk us through that a little bit about what you found as far as what really drives productivity. Heather (11:58) Sure, so just to give you a little background on me that relates to this point. So I spent the last, prior to when I started speaking full time, which is about 10 years ago, I spent 10 to 15 years working on the corporate side, industrial design, product design, design strategy, so new innovation stuff. And every organization I went into, I felt people really weren't equipped. to propositionally think. They could reiterate on the existing solutions. If they had a product, they could make another version of that product, but they couldn't jump entirely to a white space and think of something where we didn't have a contextual reference. And then I found myself working in higher ed because I had a mentor who became president of university and he said, I want to create a new college focused on innovation. And I think you understand it better than anybody else. So I built a new college focused on innovation. From those two sides, I saw the supply and the demand side of talent. And what I saw happening, and this is what kind of led to my speaking career, is we're not preparing people to do the kind of work we need people to do. We're hiring people based on past skills and experience degrees. We've now like edged all the way up to skills -based hiring. But what that really is, is hiring somebody who can demonstrate that they can do something you need them to do. What happens when they get there three or four months later and you need them to do something that's never been done before? So we need to prepare more people to do work that's never been done before. And how do you do that? I think you look more at behaviors. And then how do you activate those behaviors? So what you look for in people is some level of skill, but also behaviors that will tell you what they'll do when they don't know what to do. And that is basically what culture is. Culture is collective behaviors. So that's how you screen for people. And then how do you set the conditions to activate those behaviors? What we've done in the past is hire the skills and exert some hustle culture. And that's going to rev the engine of productivity. We did that until we hit burnout and we're still hitting burnout and we're still hitting burnout and unhappiness and disengagement. So we went from hustle culture to going, we need more engagement. we need shared purpose. we need psychological safety. Well, what's behind all of that is we need humans who feel seen and heard. Somebody cares about me. I trust my leader. You set those conditions to people who have agency and they'll activate those behaviors for which you hired them. And so they have some of the skills you need. They're going to have to acquire so many more because you don't know the work they're going to be doing. So we got to focus on what I say is culture and then people who want to build their capacity. Brian (14:29) Yeah, yeah, I love that point. And I think you're absolutely right. I'm kind of so we've been building towards skill based kind of hiring instead of behavior based hiring. And we should be looking more at building people who have the right behaviors to learn and grow and change and adapt. So I'm kind of curious your take on this, because I know that in the past few years, especially, I don't know if you've seen this, think I've noticed this in multiple sections, but there seems to have been sort of this segment of management that has returned a little bit, kind of tried to turn the clock back and gone back to a little bit of Taylorism and kind of the idea of, you you need to push and drive your employees to work harder. And I even see that in some job postings and things about how, you know, there's sort of a rise more traditional project management, is really more based on pushing and driving than enabling. I'm just curious, what's your take? Why do you think that's resurfaced? Heather (15:41) I think we got a lot of fatigue coming out of COVID. I remember us doing the sort of the press tour and everything for the Empty Advantage last spring. one, I was talking to a group of CEOs and they said to me, you know what, we're just tired of caring. And because they were being honest with me. And I said, well, explain to what you mean. And they said, well, I get it. We have to be empathetic and we have to feel bad for people and expect less of them. And I said, there's compassion and you should have that instances. And there's empathy and they are not the same thing. When I'm talking about empathy, it's about understanding the people that you're hiring and what motivates them so you can help them become what I call self -propelled. Because you cannot get people to learn and adapt at the speed, scale and scope we're gonna need through just extrinsic pressure. And there's a return to that right now. I think it's some COVID fatigue of just, you know, exhausted because people did have to care a lot for their people. But you know what, we had higher levels We had higher levels of engagement. had higher levels of productivity at the height of the pandemic because we were caring. And that was a little care fatigue. so the care fatigue hits a little economic uncertainty. We've been waiting for a recession. Inflation's been sticky. It's harder to run your business tomorrow than it was yesterday. Again, all those things. But a return to kind of the beatings will continue until the morale improves has never worked. But there is certainly a push to try that now. And I get But you're not going to get the performance out of people that way. just don't believe it. A very small percentage of people that works on most of us work best when we feel like we can trust our boss. We have agency. We have high expectations. I mean, all the studies that I've seen, the best jobs people had with the highest level of performance were when they challenged themselves, they had respect, they had autonomy, and they had agency. Brian (17:33) Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree. It just, it fascinated me when I saw that kind of return and rear its ugly head again and think, and my thought was, we've tried this, you know, like this is, it's not that this hasn't been tested and tried, we've run this experiment and it failed and we've progressed into this new era. And I think sometimes there's a leadership kind of misunderstanding that we're just trying to be nice. Like people just want us to be nice. And it's just about being kind of more friendly and kind. And that's what all these management consultants want us to be. there's a purpose behind it. It's because it works. It's not because it just makes you a better person, though it does. But it actually is better for your business to do Heather (18:21) Yeah, I think what happened is we had such a long stretch of Taylorism that we presume that that is the model that works. had four years of caring and we had good performance. And that gets sort of conflated with where we work, which I think is a completely separate thing. I think we've got to return to, not return to, we've got to go forward and to say, what did we learn in those four years? What are the things that really worked? How did we really better performance out of people. Because at the end of the day, it's what you're to do. It's why you run your organization. We are in a capitalist society. You're going to run your organization getting the highest level of performance. Highest level of performance and productivity is getting the highest level of performance out of your people. Highest level of performance out of your people comes when you trust them, they have agency, you hire for the right behaviors, you set the right conditions, and you encourage them to do things they never thought they could do. And that's what comes out of all the studies. Brian (19:11) Yeah. Yeah. And I know you, you, you drawn kind of this, this really interesting connection, I think between performance and, and mental health and sort of the idea of, you know, that we, again, building on what we've said, right? If our organizations are where we're seeking community and we're feeling lonely, then that this does impact how we work. so it shouldn't be that far of a leap for people to understand how, Hey, if, if, our work environments are damaging people's mental health, that directly impacts performance. Heather (19:47) Yeah, and you just look at the studies like, know, the companies that are ranked best places to work, they're ranked best places to work by the employees, because the employees are happy there. And you know what? Their performance is something like 16 % higher than the companies that are on the list. So it's pretty clear. You're getting the performance when people are happy, not you're going to get the performance. You're going to be happy when you get the performance. It's the other way around. We're looking at it backwards. Brian (20:12) Yeah, I agree. And one of the stats that jumped out at me in your presentation was this stat about how big of a role your direct manager or leader has on your mental health, just in general and overall in life. So tell us a little bit about Heather (20:32) Yeah, there were three different studies I think I cited in the piece you're talking about. First, the employer has a greater influence on your mental health than your spouse, partner, or therapist if you have one. Brian (20:46) That's so, I just got a full stop there. Like that is so amazing to me. Your boss has more impact on your mental health than your spouse. That just blows my mind, sorry. Heather (20:57) And the greatest source of stress in your life is your job. And then there was another study, which I thought was fascinating, and it was looking at lower paid workers generally not highly educated. The relationship, this was a longitudinal study, and it was only like four or 500 people, but they looked at your relationship with your direct supervisor. If your direct supervisor treated you with respect, gave you agency, gave you autonomy, you trusted them, you went home and raised your children such that they had higher levels of economic, social, and financial success. So not only is your boss influencing your life, you're influencing the next generation and thereby the next workforce. So there's a lot more we should be doing preparing these leaders for having this what is now an awesome responsibility. It's a really profound responsibility. And it's because I think work has become so outsized in our lives. And it's going to be. It's going to continue to be. Brian (21:58) Yeah. Yeah. So no pressure, leaders, right? I mean, no pressure on the fact that not only are you concerned with your business and your employees, but the future generation of workers. Right. Heather (22:09) And we need to help those leaders. We need to help them put on a gas mask before they try to help anybody else. Brian (22:14) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, we're in this, first of all, I think this is this huge dichotomy of, you know, as we said, we're in the age of people feeling lonely at work. While when we look at our process kind of evolution, we're in a teaming phase of process. We value, especially here, you know, an Agilist and people who practice Scrum. We're all about teamwork. It's all about working together as a team. So I'm curious, kind of your take on that. Why do you feel like we still have this sense of loneliness, even though we're trying to move more and more of our process towards being collaborative and team -based? Heather (22:58) I think we forgot to know how to connect to each other. And we can't get it all from work, but since we're looking to get so much of it from work, we need to figure it out there. I mean, how many, you know, they found these studies that, you know, you're happier at work if you have a best friend at work. It used to be that people met their spouse or partner through church work, or I can't remember the third one. Now it's mostly online. So even though we're in work, we're not. forming our social circles around work as much anymore. And it's not really, because this started long before the pandemic, so it's not just that we're working remotely and that's why our social circles aren't happening there. I think we forgot how to connect with each other. We forgot to say, how are you and mean it, instead of just waiting for fine. We forgot to have conversations that had something other than to do than what we're doing. We just forgot how to be human and have meaningful connections. And I think when you start having conversations with people about that, like I was just in Prague last month for a talk, and there was another speaker. And we connected beforehand, we sort of knew each other, and his talk was on human connection, my talk was on the future work as human, because all my talks are bespoke to the audience and what they need. And so we coordinated our two talks. And then while I was there, in his talk, he talked about how both of his parents died suddenly, within like three months of each other. And it was a really impactful part of his talk and an impactful part of the most important conversations you have in his life, in your life, et cetera. And then when I was in Prague, I got a call that said my father was dying and I had to leave. And I messaged him. And now we message each other every single day to check in with each other. It was a catalyst for a human connection you don't normally have when you share a stage with someone for five minutes. But I'm noticing more and more that people are trying to do They're trying to make more meaningful and lasting connections that are, you know, we talk about speaking, but really we talk about how are you? What are you going through? How's your breathing going today? What do you have on store for the weekend? And I've done that with a number of speakers who've become close friends. And I think more and more folks need to be, feel comfortable just reaching out and doing that and having a real connection with folks that doesn't have to do with a product that's due or a deadline or a financial goal or what have you, but has to do with. What we all want is humans, which is ultimately connection. Brian (25:14) Yeah, boy, I can't agree more. Well, we're getting towards the end of our time. before we wrap, one thing I wanted to ask is, we have listeners here that are leaders. We have listeners that are involved in Scrum teams. We may have some Scrum masters and product owners that are listening. And they're hearing this, probably agreeing a lot with what they're hearing from you. So my question for you then is if you were to talk to that group, if there were some advice you could give them, tips you could give them to better prepare them for the future of work, for where we're headed, what kind of advice would you give people currently working on Teams? Heather (26:02) I think the most important thing to figure out, and some people take a lifetime doing it, some people are born doing it, is what do you really care about? What kind of impact do you want to have on the world? How do you like to work? What kind of problems do you like to work on or find or frame? Where do you like to work in the process? Because more self -awareness you have about what really drives you, because that's really your fuel source, the better you're going to be in whatever you do. We tend to tell people, funnel people into careers based on what they're told they're good at, or more likely what they're told they're not good instead of focusing on what gives them energy. Because if we're going to have to learn and adapt, and we are, then we ought to be learning adapting around something we're intrinsically motivated to do. Brian (26:46) That's awesome. Yeah, I agree. It sounds very close to, you know, Simon Sinek's kind of find your why basis there of just, you know, that being so important in what drives us. So couldn't agree more. That's that's awesome. Well, I want to be respectful of your time and our listeners time. So, Heather, I can't thank you enough. Every time I hear you talk, I feel like I've taken another leap and have more stuff to go research and and study based off of it. So. Heather (26:53) Sure. Brian (27:15) Thank you so much for taking some time here to talk with us on the podcast. Heather (27:19) Thank you. And I just want to close with one thing because I'm a belligerent optimist. So we have some hard problems ahead of us. We've got division, we've got technology, et cetera. But we have done more in one human lifetime to improve the human condition than all of human history. We've more people out of poverty. We've almost solved literacy. We've connected the globe. It's time for us, in the words of JFK, take longer strides and do hard things. We are up to and we are more than capable of this. So I'm really optimistic about the future that's ahead of us. I think we just have to face some of our challenges. So thank you very much for having me. Brian (27:53) Amen, amen. All right. Thanks so much, Heather. I appreciate you coming on. Heather (27:58) Thanks a lot for having me. Take care.

What do you think about today's podcast?In this enlightening episode, we sit down with Damien Stark, a seasoned Agilist with over 14 years of experience, to explore the complex world of Agile transformations. Damien delves into the common challenges and misconceptions that organizations face when attempting to implement Agile methodologies, particularly in large, siloed environments.Throughout the conversation, Damien emphasizes the crucial role of mindset shifts in successfully adopting Agile principles. He shares insightful anecdotes from his work with major organizations, highlighting the importance of embracing Agile values rather than merely conforming to specific frameworks. Damien warns against the pitfalls of creating new processes without aligning them with core Agile principles and stresses the need for organizations to prioritize value delivery.Our discussion also covers the importance of continuous learning and improvement in the Agile industry. Damien introduces his innovative apps—Stack Agile, PSM app, and PSP app—designed to aid individuals preparing for Agile exams and enhance their understanding of Agile practices.Together with Temi, Damien explores the vital role of Agile coaches and Scrum Masters in helping organizations deliver high-quality value efficiently. They also discuss the challenges these professionals face and the importance of aligning leadership with Agile principles to foster a culture of openness and learning.How to reach DamienLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/damienstark/Website: https://starkagile.com/Email: linkedin@starkagile.comPSM Prep iOS app: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/psm-prep/id6504202804PSM Prep Android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.starkagile.psmprep&pcampaignid=web_sharePSPO Prep iOS app: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/pspo-prep/id6505123898PSPO Prep Android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.starkagile.pspotestprep&pcampaignid=web_shareSupport the Show.Support the show via Patreon:https://www.patreon.com/TheAgileMatrixPodcastExplore our website to discover our comprehensive course and training schedule.https://www.agilematrix.org/upcoming-courses/Check out the Scrum Master Optimisation self-paced course here: https://courses.agilematrix.org/courses/scrum-master-optimisationInterested in Agile themed Shirts? Check out our store:https://www.etsy.com/shop/TemmieDesigns?ref=search_shop_redirect

Join Brian and Ken Rickard as they delve into why agile transformations get stuck and uncover strategies for creating adaptive, resilient organizations and people. Overview In this episode, Brian sits down with coach, author, and Lean Change agent, Ken Rickard to explore the common pitfalls of agile transformations and the commodification of agile practices. Ken emphasizes the need to focus on people rather than processes and introduces the art of change, which includes self-awareness and adaptability. And shares the six big ideas of adaptive organizations, such as sense-making strategies and leadership agility. Tune in to learn how to navigate transformation challenges and create an environment that fosters resilience and adaptability. References and resources mentioned in the show: Ken Rickard Insight The Six Big Ideas of Adaptive Organizations: From Frameworks to Sensemaking by Ken Rickard and Jason Little Agile Manifesto For Software Development Lean Change Mountain Goat Software’s Agile for Leaders Training Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Ken Rickard is a spark for transformative good — a change alchemist, deep thinker, and a catalyst for personal growth and organizational evolution. With over 15 years in the agile community, he's honed the art of navigating change and embracing adaptation as the true essence of agility. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a really special guest with us. I have Mr. Ken Ricard with us. Welcome in, Ken. Ken Rickard (00:12) Thank you. Nice to be here. Brian (00:14) Glad to have Ken here with us. Ken recently spoke at the the global Scrum Gathering, in New Orleans that I was at as well and had a really interesting, actually had a workshop slot there for a workshop titled Humans Agile and Change, How to Get Your Transformation Unstuck. And wanted to have Ken on to kind of talk through that a little bit. But before we do, for those people who aren't familiar with Ken, let me give you a little bit of an introduction here. Ken is an enterprise coach and change alchemist. I love that. At a company called Insight, he co -authored a book called The Six Big Ideas of Adaptive Organizations, which I know we're going to get into here in this conversation. He's a licensed facilitator of Lean Change. He's an IC Agile authorized instructor. So he's got just a load of credentials and a load of experience to bring to the table here with this. So Ken, let's get into this. Let's talk about humans agile and change and how to get transformations unstuck. What do you think is the main cause of transformations getting stuck? Ken Rickard (01:31) Yeah. So I think, you know, we're all feeling the effects of the high of agile. And I think now we're, we're starting to come down a little bit in the industry. I think everyone's feeling that effect. I mean, I see so many agile coaches on LinkedIn that are still looking for roles and whatnot, scrum masters, you know, a good bit of that, though, I think it's a blowback from the industry and just companies in general who, when they need to tighten the belt, they're actually beginning to look at the roles they've got and figure out which ones that they can do without for now. Or maybe they can do with roles they've already got. And so the effect of that, I think is coming from this idea that, you know, the agile industry, let's even narrow that a little bit more and talk about scrum specifically, has really kind of in the industry has become commodified around this idea that it's a process. And that we just like, we used to do this thing over here and we can just go to the shelf and purchase like scrum in a way. And then like. take that and just drop it into the spot and the practices we used to do. And so when it was only viewed as a process replacement for what they're doing now, it's very easy when, things get rough or tough in the industry as they've been over the past year, year and a half, two years, that our natural, you know, kind of inclination is to kind of hunker down and that hunkering down is to go back to what's comfortable to us, which is typically non -agile, non edge. things because that edge is actually kind of uncomfortable. And so we want to kind of go back and go back into our hole and actually like do the things that we're most comfortable with as an organization or as leaders. And so, yeah, I think that's been kind of what's been happening. And it's just, you know, the follow up from that, I think it's just now hitting the industry, I think in the current times now. Brian (03:10) Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, you talk about it being a commodity and I can definitely see that across the different organizations that do certifications with this, and we're both trainers, we both do trainings. The hard part for me as a trainer is that I don't wanna... discourage people from getting training because I think the training is an important step, right? I think it's you know, you got to know the basics before you can play a sport and You know, if this is the team sport, but it's it's so much easier for me to tell someone all right Well, there's these roles these events and these artifacts Ken Rickard (03:49) Mm -hmm. Brian (04:05) and they can just go, you know, start putting it into their schedule. Here's the events we're going to do, and we have these meetings at this time. It's easy to do that, but it's hard to say, all right, what is openness? And how do we operate in an open environment, you know, or how do we treat each other with respect as we go through this kind of thing? That's hard to train, you know? Ken Rickard (04:10) Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And coming from the, you know, I've spent a three and a half, almost four years now, I think with lean change and Jason little, and, and obviously we co -wrote co -wrote the, the book together, but the, I think the thing that I've learned from all that is, I mean, I want to say that at the beginning, the intention of the folks that created the agile manifesto for software development, their intention was really to help the industry change, but from a software development and probably an adjacent request would have been that the project management kind of behavioral patterns that were there and existing already. They could have actually kind of caused that trajectory to start to shift. And they obviously did over time. I think the one thing, if I had a time machine and I could go back and I could just plant a little seed with those 17 folks, it would be to not look so narrowly at the organization, like just the software development part. Because I think that's what's caused agile and scrum to become that thing that those IT developers do. And it's actually in a way done a disservice, I believe, to the industry at large and then just kind of the trajectory over time and where we kind of landed over these past few years. And it's why with lean change, what I'm trying to do, and I'm not the only one trying to do this. There's a number of folks out there trying to do this as well. But I think Jason and I, what we're trying to do and all the lean change facilitators is to get people to realize. that at the end of the day, everything is really about change. So scrum is just a process. It has all these, like behavioral patterns that come along with it. You're going to need to change, but those things aren't laid out necessarily exactly explicitly in the scrum guide. So you can read through that with your current understanding and your current lens of the world. And you can go, okay, I got this. And okay, all I need to do is go and create a scrum master position and I need a product owner and we need to do these events and then we need to set up these artifacts. And, and that can very easily lead to that kind of mechanical approach to scrum because that's kind of the world they've come from, right? If they've come from kind of project management world where everything is very laid out, very kind of straightforward and linear and then sequentially executed. And I think what we would all probably agree is that what's really missing is that mentality shift and. and the perspective shift. And to get there, we got to really focus on people change. Like, and I don't mean just like, Hey, we're doing a new process. So what do I need to do differently? Or, Hey, we put, we installed this new piece of governance software. So what buttons do I need to push differently? I'm talking about like actual evolution of the individual, their beliefs, their behavioral patterns, and the rituals that match up to those behaviors and beliefs that set underneath them as a person. Brian (06:52) Yeah. Yeah. Ken Rickard (07:14) And so that's what we're really trying to focus on from Lean Change is we're really trying to help people understand that, that to do those things well, to do things like Scrum well, you really have to focus not just on the process change or the technology change, but actually on the people change. You may even have to focus on structures and strategies as well. Brian (07:31) So I'm trying to channel my inner listener and try to think of what they might be asking or thinking about in hearing this. And I mean, what I think about is, all right, well, let's say I'm an organization and I buy an end to all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've tried that. We've tried to implement this stuff and it's all about process and we'd rather not do that. We want to do it the right way. Where do you start? How do you start to... Ken Rickard (07:38) Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Brian (08:00) you come in and just say, hey everybody, we're gonna change how you think and how you, how do you start to get the organization to shift like that? Ken Rickard (08:06) Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. Yeah. And I would actually, I would point the finger right back at ourselves first. I mean, this is the journey I've been on for the past five years. You know, I mean, I, I actually talked about this in the session at the global scrum, scrum gathering. I told the crowd there. I was like, like five years ago, Ken, like if anybody challenged anything or didn't understand how scrum worked, I would essentially kind of like, Brian (08:14) Ha ha ha. Ken Rickard (08:34) just picture this idea of Ken taking them by the arm and leading them over to the Scrum Guide and being like, look, here's what the Scrum Guide says. And that was kind of my go -to thing in a way, variations on that, obviously. But at that time, it was mentality -wise, I was just like, okay, well, we just need to do Scrum. If we just do it well and we do it like it says we're supposed to do it, then it'll fix all the things. And that didn't really get the best response out of it. everyone. You know, it wasn't until I started to shift myself and my own perspective and start to really understand that, okay, I'm not the snake oil salesperson that they probably think I am. I'm actually somebody who's trying to help them change. And so if I look at it from that perspective, now it becomes less about the process or the framework and all the specifics of the framework. And it becomes more about, okay, where are they now? Brian (09:18) Yeah. Ken Rickard (09:29) What mentality do they have now? What are the attitudes that they have about the things that I would hope to put in front of them? Like, are they, are they like, yeah, this is great. Let's do it. Or are they like, no, I don't know. Not so sure. Or are they like, no, that's a stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Like we would never do that here. so better understanding them as an individual and then being able to better show up in a way that is going to be conducive for them to see the need to change is actually the very first. Brian (09:42) Yeah. Ken Rickard (09:55) best thing that I ever did in the way that I shifted my own perspective and how I showed up. And then that started to actually unlock them and their ability to actually pay attention and realize how they needed to change. And then therefore the change started to go. It's a much slower route because you can just go take stuff off the shelf and be like, Hey, we need to do it like this. And you probably will get some traction with some folks, but you're probably going to miss a good bit of them too. So. Brian (10:20) Well, let me, let me ask you this because this is something I've kind of been wrestling with with some other guests on the podcast as well. It's just this, this concept that, you know, partly, I think what's behind some of the problems with this is, is also the short kind of nature of, of how we view change in organizations. And, you know, we want quick results. We, you know, we have a change initiative to do something and we want to see that, that, that benefit of that change in the next three months. Ken Rickard (10:42) Sure. Brian (10:49) And all of a sudden things are going to be completely turned around and we're going to do things differently. But that's driven a lot from this short -sighted nature of, you know, we got to increase our profits quarter by quarter. We got to, you know, please our shareholders and they don't have the long vision that we used to have in companies of, you know, 10 years or something. Ken Rickard (10:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to say something and I'm going to meet it in a completely different way. Planning. Let me explain what I mean by this. all right. And I don't want to make this into the lean change show either, but I'm going to talk about a concept, from lean change real quick. so bear with me, but, so there's this idea that has been created in lean change. It's called, we, we, we refer to it as a big next now. Really what it is is it's like. Brian (11:17) Okay? Hahaha. Ken Rickard (11:42) Think of like an overarching rainbow at the top of like, Hey, what's the largest, biggest thing we're trying to accomplish? And what's the strategy around that? And if we can define a high level strategy around that, it will help us be, get like an orientation towards what outcomes are trying to seek it at the grandiose level. Let's say it's an agile transformation. All right. Underneath there are like a series of smaller humps that are like, okay, what are the goals we might want to actually achieve? Let's make sure those are really loose. except for the ones that are in the very beginning. Does this sound familiar? I'm basically describing breaking down and iterating incrementally changing the organization, right? So, underneath that you'd have like what's referred to as like the lean change cycle. This idea that we go out and actually look at the organization and get data back on what might need to change instead of actually telling people what needs to change. Like, Hey, we're becoming a scrum team, or this is what scrum is, and this is how it works. Brian (12:21) Yeah, yeah. Ken Rickard (12:41) well, what if they just start where they are and maybe the first thing I add is like a daily, you know, maybe they don't have any kind of coordination events at all right now. And then their tolerance level to change is just minimal. So, okay. So as a coach or as a less even a scrum master, the first thing I might help them do is to actually just put in some frequency of a regular sink. That could wind up turning into something that we would recognize as a daily scrum or a daily standup, but. In the beginning, maybe they don't have the tolerance to go right directly to the thing. Maybe they'll reject that or resist that. So as, as a coach or as a scrum master who's focused on change and not the process of the framework, I would go in and actually help them figure out what the best changes for them right now. And that's the approach I've been using and it just works. It works pretty well. versus coming in and being like, Hey, here's what scrum is. Here's how it works. Let's go through this training. You know, we got to get all these things set up. We need, here's what perfect looks like. Brian (13:14) Yeah. Ken Rickard (13:39) guess what we can't get there. So yeah. Brian (13:43) Yeah, I mean, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, you know, it's a difference of listening versus telling, you know, like there's a, there's kind of a telling mindset of going in for a lot of coaching of, you know, what we would typically frame more as a consulting approach. You know, I have answers. Here's the answers for you. Just do the way that I've always done it and everything will be fine versus let's actually hear what your situation is. And. Ken Rickard (13:59) Yeah. Brian (14:10) what your needs are and what you're seeing going wrong and how can we address those issues? I love that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Ken Rickard (14:14) Yeah, and experimenting through it and honestly showing up, showing up as, or knowing when to show up in a coaching stance, who is going to be more empathetic and more understanding and not going to give them all the answers and it's going to let them explore and figure it out. And it's going to shine the light in the dark corners of the room versus the consultant stance, which is going to show up in more of an advisory. Hey, If I see you all struggling, I'm going to kind of tell you what to do or show you what to do. And they may not be ready for that. So it's about knowing when to actually do one stance or the other and be able to be very fluid in those things. Brian (14:47) Yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's a phrase I'll use often in class when I talk about the coaching kind of mindset to say, you know, what we're trying to do is not build knowledge, but build capability. And if you build the capability, then people can then adapt and change when, when something similar comes along or something in the same realm, they can say, yeah, I remember last time when we had something like this, here's how I responded. So that, that ability, I think to. deal with change like you're saying. And if we have it ingrained in our mindset that, hey, we identify problems, we inspect them and we adapt as we go along, to me, that's so much more important to build into how we do things than it is to know, we got these four meetings or five meetings that we're gonna make sure we hold at a certain time. Awesome. Well, you know, I'd like to hear a little bit because I know, you know, your talk is somewhat loosely based on your book as well. And, you know, with a title like the six big ideas, help us understand. We may not have time for all six, but give us some of these big ideas. Ken Rickard (16:00) Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also still, I think Jason and I are still trying to figure out if, how the word or the phrase big ideas is resonating with folks too, because in the agile community, you know, big, big is not a word that I think people will gravitate to very quickly, but, we're also trying to straddle the fence on the change community and the agile community. Honestly, what we're trying to do is I was joking around and I think we, I'm. Brian (16:21) Yeah. Yeah. Ken Rickard (16:31) might've wrote this either in the book that's out now or the bigger book that we're working on for later this fall. But I wrote somewhere that really the change community and the agile community should really go on a blind date because they never should have really been two separate communities in my opinion. And I think Jason would hold the same opinions and a lot of our lean change facilitators, I think would hold the same opinions. So yeah, so the book is really about trying to get Agilist to understand that their role is really about change. Brian (16:47) Yeah. Ken Rickard (17:02) They already know the agile bits and the iterative incremental and all that kind of stuff. And that the change community really needs to better understand the agility community and take some of those practices and apply it to the change. And if both sides do those things, we're going to wind up in the middle and everybody's going to be the same type of person or the same type of thing. Because at the end of the day, getting to agility, like this idea of the characteristics of being nimble and being able to adapt to what's going on with a certain grace and resilience. Brian (17:25) Yeah. Ken Rickard (17:31) that set of characteristics is really, I think what the agile industry is hoping to go for. And yet a lot of the folks that find these things come to it with their current understanding and they don't really, aren't really looking to change themselves and how they see things, their perspective. And so that's how we get into this commodified kind of off the shelf version of it. And so I think we're just trying to get people to realize that. Look, if you look at these big, these six big ideas, which are really just sense making strategies. At the end of the day, that's what they are. You should be able to sense your way through what your context, your organization, given the changes that are going on. you know, what are those circumstances? How well do you know those circumstances? If you can understand those things in a sense making way, you'll be able to show up in a way that it actually be conducive to help that organization change, no matter what the scope of the changes. Let's say you're a store master. It could be your scope of your change is essentially your team or teams. Brian (18:25) Yeah. Ken Rickard (18:29) And the product that they're building, let's say you're an agile coach. Okay. Maybe it's somewhat wider than that. I don't know. I'm still on the fence about what the difference between agile coaching and scrum master is. That's another podcast though. I think, or let's say you're somewhere higher up in the organization. So whatever your purview is, whatever your scope is, that context is really what we're trying to do. We're trying to help you and the others around you understand what it is that you're not paying attention to, what it is that you don't understand. Brian (18:39) Yeah. Ken Rickard (18:58) or that you might think you understand about your organization. So it's really six ideas to help people kind of unravel that about their organization and themselves. Because like, for instance, one of the six big ideas is something that Jason had created quite a long time ago called the four dimensions of change. And what it says is that there's four things that you really probably need to focus on as, as a agent of change. And that is yourself. So like, Brian (19:07) Yeah. Ken Rickard (19:26) Your set of beliefs about things, you know, how you show up because how you show up actually affects how others receive or perceive you. And then that impacts your ability to influence others and actually help them change. And then it goes on to say there's, the big ideas or strategies that you can deploy from, from a change perspective, typically minimally viable practices, or strategies. And then the last bucket in that four dimensions is, tools and practices. You know, the things that we have the most affinity for and tend to go to first, and kind of ignore the other three things. So it's, so that particular big idea is trying to get people to recognize that, no, there's like a bigger kind of art and science here to helping people change. It's not just about the science, like the strategy and the tools and practices to be good at those things. Most likely you got to focus on the art of change, which is yourself and your stance or how you show up. Brian (19:59) Right. Right. Yeah, I'm gonna share one of my geeky subdivisions here in making this quote, but it reminds me of in the musical Hamilton, there's a line in there that George Washington says to Hamilton where he's talking about, you know, Hamilton has these visions of going off and dying like a martyr and George Washington says, dying is easy young man, living is harder. And. Ken Rickard (20:30) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (20:51) That's kind of how I see this. I'm not saying we're dying or making a choice between dying or not, but I am saying that the practices side of thing, practice is easy young man, culture is harder. It's just harder to try to implement those things. And I think a lot of times, I don't know if it's, I think individually sometimes as coaches we can get lazy. Ken Rickard (20:55) Yeah. Brian (21:18) and go to the things that's easier to tell people about. But I also think that it's an institutional thing because it's much easier for me to certify somebody or give them a credential saying that, hey, this person knows their stuff when I can test them on facts and figures and how long is that meeting and that sort of stuff versus. Ken Rickard (21:20) Mm -hmm. somebody. Yeah. Please. Brian (21:41) you know, how do you change the mindset of the culture of the organization when they're really into quick solutions and they're into trying to get things out the door as fast as possible and not focus on quality. It's harder, right? It's just, it's more difficult. Ken Rickard (21:55) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're hitting on one of the other six big ideas right now. Actually two of them, but we can start out with the explain the one. So there's another one that we made called the, the two change strategies of effective organizations. And so what this one says is that there's two ways that you can probably improve or change your organization. And that's a fractal statement in an organization because again, we're only talking about whatever context you have. Brian (22:06) Hahaha. Ken Rickard (22:27) Cause if you're a SCAR master, we're talking about the context you have of the teams you're working with. Agile coach or something higher up than that, whatever context you have. So, okay. So within your context, you probably have two ways to think about and try to help your organization change. And those two ways are either optimizing what they already do to make it better, faster, cheaper, or evolving the way they think about what they do so that they can actually succeed in ways that they never have before. And I'd be, I'll go out on a limb and say that every, at the very least, every single company I've come across that's doing agile and whatever way they call it, is really trying to do it from the purpose of the optimization, better, faster, cheaper. I think there are very few companies around the world that are actually taking it seriously enough to do the evolution part to actually change the way they think about how they do things in such ways that they're actually elevating. their set of beliefs and behavioral patterns, not just as individuals, sorry, as individuals, but as a collective and then ultimately as an organization. And so it's really trying to get you to, to focus on what is it that we actually are trying to improve? Is it just that we're trying to optimize what we're doing now? Cause that's a take scram off the shelf and just drop it in, you know, or that's send people to training and like come back and be like, cool, you're certified. Brian (23:33) Chief. Ken Rickard (23:49) But if we don't ask the hard questions around, okay, well, what are you gonna change about your behaviors? Then they're likely not focusing on evolution. And if we're not coaching them through that, yeah, not really going anywhere. Brian (24:01) Yeah, do you think organizations just don't know what they don't know? I mean, because I know you're right, they do want better, faster, cheaper. And that's sort of the end goal that they're coming at a lot of this stuff with. They just not recognize that it's really the change capability that they should prioritize. Ken Rickard (24:05) It's like. Well, I think it's because they focus. So what's really easy for a lot of organizations to change. There's a, we're going to keep tying these five, sorry, these six big ideas together, I guess, because there's another one called the five levers of change. And what that one is, is a, it's a circle of five things with people being the biggest circle in the center. And then on the four corners of it, it's basically process and technology strategies and structures. Brian (24:32) No, that's great. Ken Rickard (24:48) And so if we look at that as a systems approach to changing an organization, the reason why it's called the five levers is because they can pull any levers in any combination they want in order to try to change their organization. But the easiest levers to pull are process and technology. So, Hey, let's do scrum and we need to install Jira or Azure DevOps. Right. And that's generally where these kinds of things start because it's within the control of the teams oftentimes to make those changes. It doesn't impact a larger organization to, well, it can, but probably to a lesser extent initially. So the teams have some level of autonomy or local control to start making those changes. They don't run into problems or impediments or just kind of organizational dysfunction until a little bit down the road so they can kick that can down the road. And so I think it's, I think it's that that causes us to gravitate towards a process and then just pull that lever pretty easily. And, and that's an optimization lever. So if you tie those two ideas together, it takes the other side of those five levers, the structure and the strategies, which are all built on beliefs. You know, like if I'm a leader in a hierarchy who's worked 20 years to get to my lofty management position, I'm going to be a lot less likely to take a empathetic kind of delegated approach to my management style because I put in a lot of hard work to get to where I am now. And there's no way you're going to tell me now. Brian (25:48) Yeah. Ken Rickard (26:18) 20 years that I now have to change the way I operate? Like, no, I'm in control here. So I think we're also battling that a little bit too. Brian (26:20) Right. Yeah, what I've done got me here. So why would I do something different now? Right? Ken Rickard (26:32) Right. Exactly. Brian (26:34) Yeah, I've battled that in multiple occasions, for sure. One of the places I worked was a newspaper. And if you want to talk about people not wanting to change their mindsets of, hey, what do you mean that people don't want to have delivery of their newspaper on their front doorstep every day like they've done their whole life? Yeah, it's crazy. Well, this is great stuff. I'm really enjoying this. Ken Rickard (26:49) Yeah. Yeah. Brian (27:03) Do you have one last big thought, big idea to leave us with here? Because we're almost out of time, but what have we missed in these big ideas? Ken Rickard (27:13) Yeah, probably the other big one that comes up a lot. one of the other six that I haven't talked about yet is the, what I call the three agilities. And we'll tend to focus on the delivery agility, which is like, Hey, we, we can help you team better and people better at the team level where you're delivering. And we can help you become more product led. And we can also help you with your technical excellence, you know, like DevOps types things, right? Brian (27:21) Okay? Ken Rickard (27:38) And I think we could probably draw a circle around those three things and go, you know what, for the vast majority of the agile industry, this is what they think agile is. But in my opinion, that's only one of the agilities an organization needs in order to actually possess the characteristics of agility. And the other two would be change agility. The idea that we are adaptable to the change that we cannot control and that we actually can adapt well in a resilient way to the change we can control within our organization. And that we're constantly evolving to get better at that so that we can sustain change in a graceful way over time. So that's change agility. And then the third one is probably possibly the most important one. And that is leadership agility. This idea that if we don't create the environment for change to take place in a conducive way that is productive and adaptable. then we won't change and we'll stay stagnant and we'll stick to our standardized approaches in a stagnant way. And then delivery will suffer even though we can put new things on top of it and we can call things new words, it won't actually change. And the leadership agility is really about not just trying to teach leaders to be more competent. That's generally what management consulting and a lot of other folks are focused on. It's really about trying to help leaders address their ability. to actually have a consciousness about themselves, that they can show up in ways that are actually enabling and empowering the organization to be adaptable and flexible and to be able to deliver and change in ways that are graceful and resilient. And so in my opinion, it kind of starts there even though a lot of them don't start. Brian (29:14) I love that. No, I love that. I think that's great because, you know, a lot of times you hear the complaints of people who come through classes that are kind of more team level in the organization. And it's, there's a lot of complaints about how management just doesn't understand, or we're bumping up against the glass ceiling, you know, kind of in our organization, we can't really Institute change or make the change permanent because, you know, leadership still wants things exactly in the old way. They haven't actually shifted. how they think about things. So I love that, I love that concept. I would agree there. Well, this is great stuff. And obviously, like I said, the workshop that Ken did at the Scrum Gathering was an hour and a half. And this is just a short little taste in half an hour. So there's no way we're gonna be able to cover it all here. I strongly encourage people, if they're really interested in this topic, if they're really interested in what Ken is saying, Ken Rickard (29:53) Thank you. Yeah. Brian (30:15) Check out the book the six big ideas of adaptive organizations. It's a great book And it'll go into detail on all of these these six big ideas that we talked about here And what we're gonna put lots of the links in our show notes here so if you want to just head on over our show notes you'll find links over not only that but to to Ken's organization the six big ideas network and you can find the website there and find the the Ken Rickard (30:24) Mm -hmm. Brian (30:44) classes and trainings that Ken is doing in this area. So we'll make sure that everybody can get to that. Ken, I can't thank you enough. Thanks for coming on and sharing your knowledge with us today. Yeah. Ken Rickard (30:54) Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun.

Join Brian and Bernie Maloney as they explore the transformative power of mental models, emphasizing the shift from a mechanistic to an organic mindset in Agile organizations. Overview In this episode, Brian and Bernie Maloney discuss the profound impact of mental models on organizational culture. Bernie delves into how our beliefs and assumptions shape our thinking and behavior, particularly within Agile environments. He discusses the importance of transitioning from a mechanistic to an organic mindset, focusing on problem-solving rather than merely delivering solutions. The conversation also highlights the role of psychological safety in fostering a culture of experimentation and learning. Bernie shares valuable resources, including Amy Edmondson's 'The Right Kind of Wrong,' to further explore these concepts. Tune in for insightful strategies for enhancing your organization's agility and effectiveness. Listen Now to Discover: [1:03] - Brian welcomes Certified Scrum Trainer® and Principal at Power By Teams, Bernie Maloney, to the show. [2:15] - Bernie delves into the concept of mental models, sharing the origins of his philosophy of "making new mistakes" developed during his time at Hewlett Packard. [5:55] - Bernie illustrates the power of mental models and belief by sharing a compelling example that brings these concepts to life. [13:46] - Join us for a Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training, where a year of coaching and development with Mike Cohn, Brian, and the Agile Mentors Community of Agile leaders is included with your training. [14:39] - Bernie discusses how applying mental models can enhance the effectiveness of Agile transformations, creating a naturally adaptive and innovative climate. [18:12] - Bernie offers language as a powerful tool to support the shift to a new Mental Model. [23:30] - Bernie demonstrates the use of mental models for product owners through the Mobius Loop, providing actionable guidance and examples [26:27] - Brian shares a big thank you to Bernie for joining him on the show. [26:59] - If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, and like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast so you never miss a new episode. [27:27] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership to that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, CSPO, or Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Bernie Maloney Power By Teams Mobius Loop The Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well by Amy Edmondson Agile Teams Learn From Spikes: Time Boxed Research Activities by Mike Cohn Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Bernie Maloney is an Agile leadership coach and international speaker, leverages his 25 years of engineering and leadership experience to help teams and organizations unlock their full potential. Known for his engaging workshops and impactful coaching, Bernie believes in making performance breakthroughs both achievable and enjoyable. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest with me. I have Mr. Bernie Maloney with me. Welcome in, Bernie. I am. Bernie Maloney (00:14) Thanks, Brian. Happy to be here. Brian (00:16) Great. I'm so excited to have Bernie here. Bernie and I have touched base for years over conferences. We've run into each other and had chats and shared our shared passion for Hawaii and other things. But Bernie was speaking at the recent conference and we've gotten into some conversations. I wanted him to come on because I wanted him to, first of all, if you're not familiar with Bernie, sorry, I see, I just want to jump right into it. If you're not familiar with Bernie, Bernie is a CST. He works at a company called Powered by Teams. He teaches classes, Scrum Master product owner classes and leadership classes and other things as well. But he is a principal at Powered by Teams. So just wanted to give you the basics there before we dive into anything. But the topic that we started to talk about that just as a jumping off place for us is a topic. the topic of mental models. So Bernie, why don't you explain to everyone how you define that, mental models. Bernie Maloney (01:23) So, Brian, this is a great topic. I find myself talking about it all the time. And y 'all, I warned Brian, like, he can press play on this, and it might be 15 minutes before he gets a word in edgewise here. It touches on mindset. It touches on a lot of topics. My talk that Brian was referencing at the recent Scrum gathering in New Orleans was make new mistakes, leadership lessons from an Agile success. which goes back to where I really kind of cut my teeth in Agile at Hewlett Packard. See, I'm a mechanical engineer by training. And I cut my teeth in Agile in the consumer PC division at HP about, this is scary to say y 'all, okay, about 27 years ago starting at this point. And some of the fun stuff, it was a bang up enterprise. It was the fastest business in HP's history to hit a billion dollars. And it was just... Brian (02:05) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (02:18) a great proving ground. We had hardware, we had software, we had distributed teams where volume manufacturing was in Asia, engineering was here where I am in Silicon Valley. Go -to -market for Europe was in Grenoble, France. We had high volume. Some of our products had 100 ,000 units in a single model run, with like 200 models in Europe on a quarterly basis at times. So high volume, high mix, tight margins from a business perspective. A lot of technology products want to have 20 % to 30 % gross margins. That's before you start taking off deductions like expenses and salaries and things like that. On a good day, we had 8 % gross margins for Christmas products, maybe 2 % gross margins. We used to refer to it as we were shipping rotting bananas. And like I said, I was there. When I started, we were shipping six products a quarter. We grew to 20. By the time I left after eight years, we were doing 200 products a quarter in Europe alone. Brian (03:04) Ha ha. Bernie Maloney (03:16) hardware, software, distributed teams, high volume, high mix. And we did all that with weekly iterations of a plan. At one point in my career, I was tactically responsible for the delivery of 2 % of HP's top line revenue with zero direct reports. And part of the secret sauce of success in that organization was really that mental model of make new mistakes. So that's where the talk title comes from. And in fact, makenewmistakes .com will point to poweredbyteams .com because I own that domain too. But that mental model really helped the organization thrive and not just survive. We went from like a number one to a number five share. Sorry, from a number five to a number one the other way around. Because the founding executives recognized that in that tide of a market, mistakes were probably going to happen. And so what they did is they established the psychological safety. Wow, look, there's another great topic. Make new mistakes. You knew that if it was an honest mistake, it would be forgiven. Just don't make it again. Get the lesson is one of the things that they said. I can even tell you the story about the weekend I blew a million dollars of HP's money and I was forgiven, but you'll have to come to a conference talk for that. So that was just like a great experience. And... Brian (04:32) Wow. Bernie Maloney (04:39) After that experience, I went on to TVs. Another part of my background is I shipped the very first internet connected TVs. Look it up, the Media Smart 3760 from HP. It shipped even before Apple TV. It bombed. Okay, it was way ahead of its time. But I recognized that that had been such a joyride. And then I recognized some other stuff that really gets into the psychological, the mental aspects of leadership, high performing teams. And I could, Brian, I could talk about that too, but okay. But that kind of got me to recognize that with those skills, the success that I had experienced at HP could probably be replicated. That's kind of been the path that I've been on for the past 15 years is really helping organizations go along that path. So mental models can be really big. Let me give everybody here an example. And so Brian, I'm going to speak to you as a way of illustrating mental models. So imagine you are physically where you are right now. Brian (05:24) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (05:37) but it is 150 years ago, okay? Imagine you're physically where you are right now, but it's 150 years ago. Now, Brian, let me ask you, can man fly? Brian (05:47) boy, you're testing my history knowledge. Bernie Maloney (05:52) Okay, make it 200 years ago, okay? That makes it easier. Okay, cool. Great, now fast forward to the present. Brian, let me ask you, can man fly? Brian (05:54) No, yeah, no. Yes. Bernie Maloney (06:02) What changed? Nothing about the laws of physical reality. It was just your mental model of what for man to fly means. That's the power of belief, okay? And belief limits a whole bunch of stuff in the way that people behave. So you'll hear Agilent talk all the time about, this is all about changing mindset. I'm probably, Brian, gonna give your listeners some ways of. Brian (06:06) invention. Bernie Maloney (06:30) changing mindset as we go through this, but that's going to illustrate the power of mental models. Now, a big one that I like to use that's specific to Agile comes from Gabby Benefield. She's an Agilist out of the UK, and it's called the Mobius Loop. And I think she's got the domain mobiusloop .com. So everybody can imagine a Mobius Loop. Okay. And what I really like about this model for her... Brian (06:32) Sure, yeah, please. Yeah. Bernie Maloney (06:56) i s the right -hand half is what a lot of organizations think Agile is. Build, measure, learn, build, measure, learn. The whole idea of the build trap that we talk about in Agile. It's all about the delivery of a solution. Okay? But the left -hand half is all about the discovery of the problem. Okay? And the discovery of the customer. And that's a part of Agile too that most organizations overlook. So you got to ask why. And it comes down to kind of mental models. So when I was at Persistent, if you go look me up on LinkedIn, you'll find some of my employment history. I was at Persistent for a while. They had a really good mental model. And it's something I still use when I go into a client. And they would talk about there's kind of three eras of a company culture. And so culture is really the environment that an organization lives within. And there's an era. where cultures were formed before the internet. So things like finance and government and mining and manufacturing and oil and gas field developed. I mean, I've had clients in all of these areas. And in that sort of an environment, okay, it was, well, an era. One of the things I'll ask, and Brian, I'll kind of like let you represent the audience. Would you say in general, the people that you work with, the markets that they serve, Are they moving faster and all up into a thumbs up, slower, thumbs down, or about the same, thumbs sideways? Are the markets moving faster, slower, or about the same as they were, say, five or 10 years ago? Brian (08:32) I think everything's moving faster, yeah. Bernie Maloney (08:34) Cool. Okay. Now, how about the technology that your clients use to solve problems for that market? You know, moving faster, thumbs up, slower, thumbs down, or about the same as it was, say, five or 10 years ago. Faster. Yeah, cool. Okay. Now, when things are moving faster, thumbs up for yes, thumbs down for no. Do they always move in a straight line? Brian (08:46) No, faster. No, not always. Bernie Maloney (08:56) Okay, cool. So now things are moving faster, but they're not moving in a straight line. So let me ask you, do most organizations try and plan and predict? Is it possible for you to plan and predict when things are moving faster and they're not moving in a straight line? Is it easier or harder to plan and predict? Brian (09:19) I think it's definitely harder. Bernie Maloney (09:21) Yeah, but organizations are trying to do that, aren't they? And it's because their mental model is as a machine. So organizations born before the internet have a mental model of the entire organizational system being a machine, the industrial age, which you can plan and predict. They treat people like cogs in a machine. In fact, the thing that us Agilists will say is, when you say resources, did you mean people? See, that's... Brian (09:35) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (09:50) That's kind of now we're starting to get into some of the culture aspects of this because language actually forms culture. And so you'll hear Angela say, did you mean people? Like when that whole word of resources comes up. But organizations born before the internet, they've got one culture. Okay, they were born in an era of plan and predict. They've got a mental model of the system being a machine. And your listeners would probably agree most of them struggle with Agile. Okay, now there's another era born in the internet but not the cloud. So some examples like here in Silicon Valley, Cisco, PayPal, okay, lots of us have had exposure to them and lots of us recognize they still struggle with agile because agile wasn't really fully formed and articulated. Then there are organizations that were born in the cloud and so places like Striper Square and I use payments because I've had... clients in finance across all three of these eras. So Stripe or Square, they were born in the cloud where things were almost natively agile because the Agile Manifesto had been published by that point. They just inherently get agile. So these mental models of your organizational system being a machine get reflected in the language. So things like people or resources, it turns them into objects. It enables something I've heard called pencil management. Wear them down to a nub, go get a new one. In fact, if you do the research on where the word resources was first applied to human beings, it might shock some people. So I don't talk about that openly. They'll have to find me privately. I'll be happy to point you out the reference. And once I do, it's like, ooh. But one of the jokes I'll crack. And this is one of the ways that you can start to shift the language. If people call you resources, because you know that turns you into an object, start calling them overhead. Brian (11:23) Yeah. Ha ha ha. Bernie Maloney (11:48) Okay, it can kind of make the difference there. Okay, so, but you know, if things are moving faster and they're harder to plan and predict, that mental model needs to shift. In fact, in agile, we talk about you need to move to sense and respond. When things are moving faster, it's kind of like Gretzky, skate to where the puck is going. You need to sense and respond to the situation. So a better mental model instead of a mechanism is an organism. Because think about organisms, like cut yourself, it heals, okay? It senses and responds. Or like a forest fire comes in, wipes things out, and nature always kind of fills things back in. Sense and respond. This gets reflected in the language. So Brian, do your clients talk about metrics? Brian (12:37) Of course, yes. Bernie Maloney (12:38) Okay, cool. So do they talk about efficiency? Brian (12:41) I would say a lot of businesses will talk about that. Yeah, sure. Bernie Maloney (12:44) Yeah, cool. That's the language of machines. Probably better language is diagnostics instead of metrics. That invokes some of the curiosity. And probably instead of efficiency is effectiveness. One of the things I'll say is scrum is not efficient. It's not about utilization of capacity. It's about the production of value, which is all about effectiveness. See, efficiency or effective. Do you go to your doctor for an efficient treatment? or ineffective treatment, Brian. Brian (13:16) Effective, hopefully. Bernie Maloney (13:17) Awesome. Do you go for blood metrics or blood diagnostics? Brian (13:21) Yeah, diagnostics for sure. Bernie Maloney (13:23) Yeah, so now you're starting to get some hints about how you can start to shift the mental model. What you're really doing with Agile, y 'all, is you're shifting the culture, and culture is hard because it's not visible. The tools, the processes, the practices that folks like Brian and I will teach and coach, they're super visible, they're super valuable, but they're often not enough to start to change things. So, Brian, would you say most of your listeners are familiar? familiar with the language of Tuchman of forming, storming, norming, and performing. Brian (13:56) I'd say there's probably a good percentage, yeah. Bernie Maloney (13:58) Cool. I actually like to draw a Satir curve. So Bruce Tuckman, Virginia Satir, they were contemporaries. They were both just researching human systems. So Virginia did a performance axis on the vertical and a time axis on the horizontal. And the way Virginia described it is you're kind of going along in a certain status quo. And so you're kind of along that baseline. And then a foreign element enters and some change. And then you descend into chaos. And you can't see it. like your performance goes down until you have a transformative idea and then through some practice and integration, you rise to a new status quo. This happens to people all the time when they introduce changes in their life like New Year's resolutions. I'm going to get fit and healthy this year. You know, it's a beach body time. And you start doing it and it's like, this is so hard. You're in chaos. And what human beings want to do is they want to go back to the way things were instead of moving through. OK, this happens when you introduce agile into your organization. You'll hear Agilist talk about this as the Agile antibodies. You introduce it, this is so hard, and people want to go back to the way things were instead of kind of moving through. So the tools, the processes, the practices, they're really good, but they're not powerful enough. You got to start changing the culture. Culture is like what we all swim in, but climate is something that you can start to affect. So climate is a little bit closer in to your team, and you can start talking about these mental models. Like when I was at TiVo, I was hired into TiVo to bring Agile in because I had shipped TVs, I knew about Agile. And I was hired in on, I think I can say this now because we're more than a decade past. Have you all ever streamed anything? Yeah, okay. So TiVo was working on that in like 2009, 2010. I got to see that stuff and I was like, really wish I had taken off for them. But that program... Brian (15:42) yeah. Bernie Maloney (15:54) disbanded, okay, and the culture kind of spread in the organization. And I knew that this was a possibility, so when I brought it in, I made sure I didn't just work with my team that was doing a Skunk Works project, where we were just kind of doing some internal development that we weren't, you know, or stealth is probably a better word these days. So a stealth program inside of TiVo that you couldn't talk about. I knew that... when Agile would spread, it would hit some of this resistance, these antibodies. And so I made a case for bringing in people from outside my team so that it was familiar. And when that program disbanded, it organically spread on the cloud side of TiVo because of some of this stuff. So within your own team, you can kind of create a climate. And then when you start to see results like that, that's going to start attracting kind of the rest of the culture that's there. But these mental models, like shifting from mechanism to organism can really help an organization recognize where their limiting beliefs are about how things go. And it's going to be reflected in language. So if you like dive into anthropology a little bit, you're going to recognize that it's really well established. You can change a culture by starting to change the language. And all of us, okay, if you're observing what's going on in Eastern Ukraine here in 2024, that's what's going on. with the Russian occupation, they're changing the language because that's going to change the culture. That's why they're doing stuff like that. So, and even language starts to shape the mental models that you've got. A good example of something like that was when European, you know, when European explorers is the language I'll use, came to the Americas, the natives didn't really have a language for ship. And so they saw these people coming in floating on the water. And that was the way that they could describe it. So even language kind of gets into a cultural sort of a thing. So these are techniques that you can put into your toolkit. Start shifting the language to start shifting the culture, which can kind of help with the mental models. When you got the mental models, that's where the language starts to come from. If you don't have the mental models, you're probably not going to have the language. And I encourage all the folks I work with, start shifting from the whole idea of mechanism to organism. Okay, Brian, was that 15 minutes? Did I go on for as long as I predicted I would? Brian (18:27) About 15 minutes. Yeah. No, but I think that's a good point. There's a thing that I'll talk about a lot of times in my classes where I would all say, you know, the waterfall paradigm is one that's based on manufacturing. And there's a false understanding of what we're doing as manufacturing and it's not. It's more research and development. So you have to kind of shift the process to be one that's more conducive. to research and development. So that's very much in line with what you're talking about here. I love that. Bernie Maloney (19:01) Yeah. Do you think people would appreciate some book references that can kind of like help you? Okay. So specifically on that whole ethos of experimentalism that you just touched on, Brian, I'm currently going through Amy Edmondson's The Right Kind of Wrong. Really good book. Now, Amy is well known because she helped establish psychological safety as a super important topic in organizations. Brian (19:07) absolutely. Absolutely. Bernie Maloney (19:30) So she was coupled, I think, with Project Aristotle at Google. And in this book, she unpacked some really interesting stuff. She talks about failure, and there's types of failures. There's basic, there's complex, and there's intelligent failures. OK, intelligent failures, they're just native to science. You know things are going to go wrong. You're going to have Thomas Edison, the I Found 1 ,000 Ways. to do a light bulb wrong, sort of. That's like intelligent failure. Basic failure, she breaks down into, let's see, neglect and inattention. And those are the things that you really want to start to squeeze out of a system. With that mental model of a mechanism, I would say a lot of, call it management, tends to think of a lot of failures as basic failures. And that's where blame starts to come into a system. Okay, so now we're back into psychological safety. Okay, where you want to establish, you know, that was an honest mistake. Hence the talk title of make new mistakes. Okay, so you can have processes and procedures that can kind of squeeze out some of those basic failures. Complex in the middle is really interesting to talk about. As I'm getting into the material, she unpacks... Now, complex failures are those chain of events, you know, Brian (20:30) Yeah. Yeah. Bernie Maloney (20:54) This thing and this thing and this thing all had to line up and go wrong at the same time for this catastrophic failure to go on. And in medicine, which is where her original research was, they talk about it as Swiss cheese. And she says, if you go into a lot of medical administrators' offices, you're going to find some model of Swiss cheese there. Because they talk about it's like all the holes have to line up for something to go sideways on you. So complex failures. It's a chain of events, a bunch of little things. And she points out that in the research, these often happen when you have an over -constrained system where there's no slack, where you're trying to operate with, get this, Brian, 100 % efficiency. You're trying to load everybody up. So that is just like, it's not just juice on psychological safety, but like, looking at the whole idea of intelligent failures that we want to encourage versus constraining out basic failures versus working to reduce those complex failures and not just thinking complex failures are basic failures, but they're systemic failures that then might be part of the system, might be part of the mental model that's going on that's there. So super juicy stuff. Brian (22:11) Yeah, yeah, that's really good stuff. I've always loved Amy's work and I feel, you know, silly calling her Amy. But Amy Edmondson's work has always been great. Yeah, Professor Edmondson. She, the work on psychological safety, I think was just amazing. And the examples she used in her research are amazing. And, you know, all the stuff with Project Aristotle. Bernie Maloney (22:20) Okay, Professor Edmondson, yeah. Brian (22:36) I love the concept of psychological. I mean, again, not to make this the topic of our podcast, but, you know, I love the idea that they, they, they found that psychological safety was, so foundational that nothing else mattered. That if you didn't have that, that not no matter what else you layered on top of it, it would not fix the problem that you didn't have psychological safety. Bernie Maloney (22:58) Yep. And that's one of the reasons why I say Agile is actually a social technology more than anything else. I mean, that's why it's people and people over processes and tools. This is really a social technology that we deal in. Brian (23:10) That's a great way to put it. I love that social technology. Awesome. I love that. Bernie Maloney (23:14) So kind of talking about Amy and psychological safety and kind of all these systems that we're talking about, another mental model that I like to give particularly my product owners, going back to that Mobius loop. and like on the right hand side is all about delivery, okay, that's where you give team solutions to build. That's what a lot of organizations do. Versus on the left hand side with discovery, it's all about problems to solve. So I like to encourage my clients to instead of just giving people solutions to build, give them problems to solve. Now, for product owners, if you imagine like an onion that's kind of stretched out left to right, so kind of an odd long little onion. Brian (23:41) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (23:58) and on the far right is your sprint. And then as you go to the left, you're at a release, and further out to the left, you're in roadmap, and way further out into the left, you're into these vague things like vision. So product owners kind of deal with this whole span of things. And in between, product and sprint goals start to make things a little bit more concrete. Okay, and... One of the things I'll do for my product owners is I'll take that Mobius loop and I'll overlay it on a planning onion like that and go, do you get to see how, like what we're talking about here, you're starting out way vague in discovery and you're getting way more concrete as you get into delivery and into the sprint. And really the job of Agile and Scrum is both. It's not just about turn the crank on the machine. In fact, I think it's unfortunate that there's a book title out there of twice. the work in half the time. I actually like to pitch this as more it's about twice the value with half the stress. Okay, now as you imagine that Mobius loop kind of overlaid, one of the things I'll unpack for folks is when you're way out in that vision area, there's a lot of uncertainty that's there, okay? And you're actually going to have to do discovery. You may have to run some experiments. Brian (24:58) Yeah. Bernie Maloney (25:24) Okay, and it's only as you get closer into delivery that you want to get closer to certainty. And really, that's kind of the job of a product owner is squeezing uncertainty out of the system. Initially through discovery of the problem to solve, who to solve it for, what the market is, but it's the job of the whole team in Agile to squeeze that uncertainty out of the system. Brian, I'm sure you've had folks like talk about spikes. You ever have people get wrapped around the axle about like including spikes in their product backlog? Brian (25:48) Yeah, for sure. yeah, for sure. Bernie Maloney (25:54) Cool, the way that I frame that up, okay, so here's a mental model. That's just technical uncertainty that you've uncovered. Great, okay, so now we've got to go squeeze that uncertainty out of the system. So stop getting wrapped around the axle on stuff like this. Just like stop trying to plan and predict things. Instead, kind of get into sense and respond on all of them. And there, I've kind of brought it around full circle for you, Brian, for where we started. Brian (26:09) Yeah, no. No, that's great. That's great stuff. And I love the fact that we can bring it back full circle. Well, this is fascinating. And like you said, we could press play and go on this for another half hour very easily. But we'll be respectful of people's time here and keep it to our normal time length. Bernie, I can't thank you enough for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us. And... what you've learned over your years of working in this profession. Bernie Maloney (26:50) Thank you so much for asking me, Brian

For the first time, Kate and Kim find an Agilist brave enough to join them on the podcast to talk about some really hard questions about working Agile vs Waterfall. Let's get it on! We ask the questions that PM's want to ask - frustrated, annoyed PM's who are told to work “agile” by people who maybe don't even understand Agile - or Waterfall, for that matter. In this refreshingly honest talk about the reality of ways of working, Kate, Kim and their guest Agilist, David Asch, talk in real-world terms about Agile, Predictive and the reality in-between. About our amazing (and brave) guest, David Asch David Asch has a 36-year career in startup and mid-stage commercial software companies. He's worked in various industries, including transportation, supply chain, retail analytics, scientific marketing, blockchain, and secure communications. From his experience with the challenges and successes of delivering software over a long career, David founded 10xPrinciples, a management/organizational consulting company, to help technology companies navigate the transition from startup to mid-stage.  During a time of rapid growth and change, teams typically find that the ”wearing many hats” culture from their startup days is no longer the best approach to honoring commitments. David helps these companies weave Agile practices into the fabric of their cultures. David's recognized expertise in companywide Agile-driven management makes him invaluable to clients who need to implement Agile principles and methodologies into their unique business environments. Get David's book, The Agile Enterprise: Applying Agile Principles to Drive Organizational Success, on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Agile-Enterprise-Applying-Principles-Organizational/dp/1637425473/  Connect to him on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidasch1/  And check out his website: https://10xPrinciples.com    JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR! Get access to all podcasts, PDU certificates, bonus content, exclusive member Q&A webinars and more from our membership! https://pmhappyhour.com/membership STUMP THE PM'S! We love to hear about your tough PM issues, so please hit us up at podcast@pmhappyhour.com or on Linkedin and we'll see if we can help you. If we use your question, we'll send you a PM Happy Hour coaster you can enjoy at your next happy hour.  

Thursday Night Interview Program with William Strydom. Talking Shifts in Agile Space, Interview No. 21.  William Strydom, Integral Agilist, Professional Coach and Leadership Developer.  An Agilist who is currently spreading the joy of modern ways of working and agility across teams, departments and organizations. He believes in evoking excellence in others.  William and I met through Marsha Acker and her cohort activities towards earning IC Agile's Expert in Agile Coaching program William's profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamstrydom/ Reference report: https://businessagility.institute/learn/skills-in-the-new-world-of-work/750/  The Thursday Night show will start at 8pm EST with the podcast version to follow up at 9pm EST.  Please stay tune for more interviews with agile people and change agents. Please reach out if you want to be on the show.  Happy Scrumming, Please don't forget to sign up for out weekly mailing list with its freebees. Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum)

Bio Dr. Jeff Sutherland is the inventor and co-creator of Scrum, the most widely used Agile framework across the globe.  Originally used for software development, Jeff has also pioneered the application of the framework to multiple industries and disciplines. Today, Scrum is applied to solve complex projects in start-ups and Fortune 100 companies. Scrum companies consistently respond to market demand, to get results and drive performance at speeds they never thought possible. Jeff is committed to developing the Agile leadership practices that allow Scrum to scale across an enterprise.   Dr. Sutherland is the chairman and founder of Scrum Inc. He is a signatory of the Agile manifesto and coauthor of the Scrum Guide and the creator Scrum@Scale. Jeff continues to teach, create new curriculum in the Agile Education Program and share best practices with organizations around the globe. He is the founder of Scrum Inc. and coauthor of, Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time, that has sold over 100,000 copies worldwide.    Social Media:                 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeffsutherland                 Twitter: @jeffsutherland Website: Scrum Inc https://scruminc.com               Books/ Articles: The Scrum Guide by Jeff Sutherland and Ken Schwaber http://www.scrumguides.org/index.html Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time by Jeff Sutherland The Scrum Fieldbook by JJ Sutherland Agile Competitors and Virtual Organisations by Steven Goldman, Roger Nagel and Kenneth Preiss https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agile-Competitors-Virtual-Organizations-Engineering/dp/0471286508 Accelerate: Building Strategic Agility for a Faster Moving World by John P. Kotter Leading Change by John P. Kotter Process Dynamics, Modeling and Control by Babatunde A. Ogunnaike and Harmon W. Ray A Scrum Book: The Spirit of the Game by Jeff Sutherland, James Coplien, Mark den Hollander, et al    Interview Transcript Ula Ojiaku: Hello everyone, my guest today is Dr Jeff Sutherland. He is the inventor and co-creator of Scrum, the most widely used Agile Framework across the globe. Originally used for Software Development, Jeff has also pioneered the application of the framework to multiple industries and disciplines. Today, Scrum is applied to deliver complex projects in startups and Fortune 100 companies. Dr Jeff Sutherland is the Chairman and Founder of Scrum Inc. He is a signatory of the Agile Manifesto and co-author of the Scrum Guide and the creator of Scrum at Scale. Jeff continues to teach, create new curriculum in the Agile education programme and share best practices with organisations around the globe. He has authored and co-authored a number of books which include Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time – which has sold over 100,000 copies worldwide. In this episode, Dr Sutherland shares the backstory of how he and Ken Schwaber developed the Scrum framework. I was pleasantly surprised and proud to learn that one of the inspirations behind the current Scrum framework we now have was the work of Prof Babatunde Ogunnike, given my Nigerian heritage. Dr Sutherland also talked about the importance of Agile Leadership and his current focus on helping organisations fix bad Scrum implementations. I'm sure you'll uncover some useful nuggets in this episode. Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, my conversation with Dr Sutherland.   Ula Ojiaku: Thank you, Dr. Sutherland, for joining us on the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. It's a great pleasure to have you here. Jeff Sutherland: Glad to be here. Looking forward to it. Ula Ojiaku: Fantastic. So could you tell us about yourself? Jeff Sutherland: Well, I grew up in a small town in Massachusetts. And I always felt that I would go to West Point of the United States Military Academy, even at a very young age. And I finally made it there. I spent four years there. And I went on to a program where a certain number of cadets could join the Air Force. And I told the Air Force, if they made me a fighter pilot, I would move into the Air Force, which I did. I spent 11 years as a fighter pilot in the Air Force. And most of the operational aspects of Scrum actually come from that training. My last tour in the Air Force was actually at the US Air Force Academy, I was a professor of mathematics. And I had gone to Stanford University in preparation for that position. And I had worked closely with the, at the time he was Head of the Department of Psychiatry, became the Dean of Stanford who had studied under my father-in-law, he had become an MD under my father-in-law, who was a brilliant physician. And I was working on research papers with him, both at Stanford and at the Air Force Academy. And I asked him for guidance. And I said, I'm thinking about, given all the work we've done in the medical area. Starting in Stanford, I'm thinking maybe becoming a doctor - become an MD. And he strongly recommended against that he said, ‘you'll just go backwards in your career, what you need to do is you build on everything you've done so far. And what you have is your fighter pilot experience, your experience as a statistician, and a mathematician, you want to build on that.' So, I had already started into a doctoral program at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, which was not far from the Air Force Academy. And so, I talked to my department Chairman there who offered me a position in the department running a large research grant, funded by the National Cancer Institute and so, I decided to exit the Airforce and join the medical school. While I was finishing up my doctoral degree. And as soon as my doctorate was finished, I became a professor of Radiology, preventive medicine and biometrics. I was a joint across multiple departments. And I was doing mathematical research on modeling, particularly the human cell on a supercomputer, (to) determine what caused cancer. And to do that required extensive mathematical research as well as the medical research. But at the end of the day, what we found was for any complex adaptive system, like a human cell, or a person or a team, they go through different states. And they're moved from one state to the next by some kind of intervention. And so, if you understand what causes those changes… turned out in the case of cancer, there were four different states that led to a tumor. And in every state, there were certain interventions, and if you knew what they were, you could prevent them and prevent cancer. Or you could even, to my surprise, take a cancer cell and make it go backward into a normal cell. So, this fundamental understanding is the theory behind Scrum. So, while I'm doing this all at the medical school, a large banking company came by and said, ‘you know, over the medical school, you guys have all the knowledge about the technologies; the new technology, we're using (for) banking, you're using for research.' And they said, ‘you guys have all the knowledge but we have all the money and they made me an offer to come join the bank'    Ula Ojiaku: [Laughs]You couldn't refuse Jeff Sutherland: Not just me, it was my family. So, I wind up as Vice President for Advanced Systems, which was effectively was the CTO for 150 banks that we were running across North America.   Each was, you know, a dozen, 50, 100 branches. And of course, we were mainly doing the software, installation and support to run the banking operation, which is largely computer stuff – (this) is what banks run off. And as we're building these systems with hundreds and hundreds of developers, one of the first things I noticed is that all the projects were late. And I look at what they're doing. And they're using this process where they spend, you know, six months defining requirements, and then they put all the requirements into a Gantt chart. And then they, they plan on taking six months to build something, but it's never done. Because as soon as they start testing that they find there's all kinds of things that are broken. So, virtually every single project of the bank is late. So, as a head of technology, one day I walked into the CEO's office and I said, ‘Ron,  have you noticed all your projects are late?' He said, ‘Yes'. He says, ‘Every morning at least five CIOs or CEOs of the banks, they call me up.' And he says, ‘they scream at me.' I said, ‘wow', I said, ‘You know, it's going to get worse, not better. Because these guys are using this, these Gantt Charts.' And I showed him one. And then being a mathematician, I mathematically proved that every project would be late at the bank. And he was stunned. And he said, ‘what should I do?' I said, ‘we need a completely different operating system in the bank.' This is back in 1983. ‘Let's take one business unit. Let's take the one that's losing the most money, okay, the worst business unit' Ula Ojiaku: They have nothing to lose then. Jeff Sutherland: And it was the automated teller division that was rolling out cash machines all over North America. It was a new technology and they had a ton of problems. So, I said, ‘let's take that unit and every one, sales, market, support, installation, we're going to split them down into small teams. And we're going to have Product Marketing come in on Monday with a backlog prioritized by business value. And at the end of the week, on Friday, we're going to deploy to 150 banks.' ‘And I'm going to train them how to land a project every week, just like I trained fighter pilots to land aircraft. I'm going to give them a burndown chart, we're going to throw away the Gantt Chart, I'm going to give them a burndown chart to show them how to land the project.' So, he said, ‘Well, that's gonna be a big headache.' I said, ‘look, the bank needs to be fixed.' He said, ‘Okay, you got it.' So, I took that unit. I told them, ‘I know it's gonna take several weeks,' today we call them sprints, ‘for you to be successful.' Because as new pilots, trained to land, these high-performance jets, they tend to come in high and then they have to come around and try to land again, they over and over, they practice until they can nail it. And it took them six weeks, six sprints to actually nail the end of the week (and) deploy (to) 150 banks. But within six months, it became… it went from the worst business unit in the bank to the most profitable business unit in the bank. And the senior management said, ‘you know, Jeff, here's another 20 million dollars to throw at whatever that thing you're doing  it's the most profitable thing in the bank, we're gonna put more money in that. So that was the first prototype of what we call today Scrum at Scale. Now, I've been CTO of 11, or CTO or CEO of 11 different companies. And for the next 10 years, I prototyped that model and advanced technology teams until in 1993, at a company called Easel Corporation, we found that because of the tooling we were building and selling to customers, we needed to build the tool with what today we call Agile Practice. Ula Ojiaku: Yes Jeff Sutherland: And we need to train the customer to use the tool by having teams do an agile practice. So, in order to train our customers properly in 1993, we actually had to formalize what I've been prototyping for 10 years. And we wrote it down and at the time we were reading this paper, we're going through 1000 papers in the journals I, you know, I had done many new technology. And, in every one of them, you have to read everything that's ever been done so that you can go beyond. You can use everything that's been done, but then you go beyond, okay? Ula Ojiaku: Yeah Jeff Sutherland:  So, it's a tremendous amount of research to launch new technology. And at about the 300th paper in our file, it was a paper out of the Harvard Business Review, which really surprised me, by two Japanese Business School professors, Professors Takeuchi and Nonaka. And in there, they described the best teams in the world. They were lean hardware teams that reminded them of a game of rugby, they said, ‘we're going to call what they're doing Scrum Project Management.' So, I said to the team, ‘we need a name for this thing that we're going to train our customers in, and let's call it Scrum.' And off we went. So, for the next two years, we were actually using Scrum within Easel deploying products. But it was not public, to the general industry. And Easel got acquired by a larger company. And at that time, I felt that this needed to be rolled out into the industry because we had benchmarked it with the best tooling in the world from the leading productivity company, and showed that it was… that (it) went 10 times faster. The quality was 10 times better, which is what you need for a new technology innovation. And so, I felt it was ready to go to the industry as a whole. So, I called up an old friend, Ken Schwaber. And he was a CEO of a traditional Project Management software company, a waterfall (methodology). He sold these methodologies with 303 ring binders, a software package that would make Gantt Charts. So, I said, ‘Ken, I want you to come up and see the Scrum, because it actually works and that stuff you're selling doesn't work – it makes projects late.' And he agreed to come in, he actually came up, he met with me. He stayed for two weeks inside the company, working, observing the Scrum team. And at the end of those two weeks, he said, ‘Jeff, you're right. This really works - it's pretty much the way I run my company.' He said, ‘if I ran my company with a Gantt Chart, we would have been bankrupt a long time ago.' So, I said, ‘well, why don't you sell something to work that works instead of inflicting more damage on the industry?' So, he said so we said ‘okay, how (do) we do it?' I said, ‘it needs to be open source, it needs to be free.' Ken felt we needed to take the engineering practices, many of which appear today in extreme programming… Ula Ojiaku: Yes Jeff Sutherland: …and let Kent Beck (creator of eXtreme Programming, XP) run with them because Kent had been sending me emails, ‘Jeff, send me every...', he had been following the development of Scrum, ‘…send me everything on Scrum, I'm building a new process. I want to use anything that you've done before and not try to reinvent anything.' So, he (Ken Schwaber) said, ‘let Kent take the engineering practices, we'll focus on the team process itself.' And we agreed to write the first paper on this to present at a big conference later that year. And writing that paper was quite interesting. Ken visited DuPont Chemical Corporation, the leading Chemical Process Engineers there that they had hired out of academia to stop chemical plants from blowing up. And when Ken met with them, they said, describe what we were doing in the software domain. They said, ‘you know, well, that process that traditional project management is a Predictive Process Control System. We have that in the chemical industry.' ‘But it's only useful if the variation in the process running is less than 4%.' They said, ‘do you have less than 4% change in requirements while you're building software?' Ken says, ‘no, of course not! It's over 50%!' And they started laughing at him. They said, ‘your project's going to be exploding all over the place.' ‘Because every chemical plant that has blown up has been somebody applying a predictive control system to a system that has high variability. You need to completely retrain industry to use Empirical Process Control, which will stop your projects from blowing up. And they said, here it is, here's the book, they had the standard reference book for Chemical Process Engineering. And in there, there's a chapter on Empirical Process Control, which is based on transparency, inspection, and adapting to what's happening in real time. Okay, so those are the three pillars of Scrum that are today at the base of the Scrum guide. Ula Ojiaku: Do you still remember the title of the book that the chemical engineers recommended to Mr. Schwaber by any chance? Jeff Sutherland: Yeah, so I have a, when I do training, I have a slide that has a picture of the book (Process Dynamics, Modelling and Control). It's written by Ogunnaike and Ray. But that is the root of the change that's gone on in the industry. And so then from 1995, forward, Ken and I started working together, I was still CTO of companies. And I would get him to come in as a consultant and work with me. And we'd implement and enhance the Scrum implementations in company after company after company. Until 2001, of course, Scrum was expanding but Extreme Programming in 2001, was actually the most widely deployed. They were only two widely-deployed agile processes at the time of Scrum and Extreme Programming. Extreme Programming was the biggest. And so, the Agile Manifesto meeting was convened. And it had 17 people there, but three of them were Scrum guys - that had started up Scrum, implemented it in companies, four of them were the founders of Extreme Programming. And the other 10 were experts who have written books on adaptive software development or, you know, lightweight processes, so, industry experts. And we, we talked for a day and everybody explained what they were doing and there was a lot of arguments and debate. And at the end of the day, we agreed because of this book, Agile Competitors, a book about 100 hardware companies - lean hardware companies, that have taken Lean to the next level, by involving the customer in the creation of the product. And we said, ‘we think that we all need to run under one umbrella. And we should call that Agile.' Ula Ojiaku: So, did you actually use the word umbrella in your (statement)? Oh, okay. Jeff Sutherland: Often, people use that right? Ula Ojiaku: Yes, yes Jeff Sutherland: Because at the time, we had Agile and Extreme Programming, and now everybody's trying to come up with their own flavor, right?  All under the same umbrella of ‘Agile'. And that caused the both Scrum and Extreme Programming started to expand even more, and then other kinds of processes also. But Scrum rapidly began to take dominant market share, Scrum today is about 80% of what people call Agile. The reason being, number one, it was a technology that was invented and created to be 10 times better. So, it was a traditional new technology developed based on massive amounts of research. So, it worked. But number two, it also scaled it worked very well for many teams. I mean, there are many companies today like Amazon that have thousands of Scrum teams. And Extreme Programming was really more towards one team. And (reason number) three, you could distribute it across the world. So, some of the highest performing teams are actually dozens of teams or hundreds across multiple continents. And because of those three characteristics, it's (Scrum has) dominated the market. So that brings us to in 2006, I was asked by a Venture Capital firm to help them implement Scrum in their companies, they felt that Scrum was a strategic advantage for investment. And not only that, they figured out that it should be implemented everywhere they implemented it within the venture group, everybody doing Scrum. And their goal was to double their return on investment compared to any other venture capital firm. They pretty much have done that by using Scrum, but then they said, ‘Jeff, you know, we're hiring you as a consultant into our companies. And you're a CTO of a healthcare company right now. And we don't want to build a healthcare company, we want to build a Scrum company.' ‘So, why don't you create Scrum Inc. right here in the venture group? We'll support it, we'll do the administrative support. We'll write you a check - whatever you want.' So, I said, ‘well, I'm not going to take any money because I don't need it. I understand how that works. If the venture capital firm owns your company, then (in the) long term, you're essentially their slave for several years. So, I'm not taking any money. But I will create the company within the venture group. If you provide the administrative support, I'll give you 10% of the revenue and you can do all the finances and all that kind of stuff. So, that's the way Scrum Inc. was started to enable an investment firm to launch or support or invest in many dozens of Scrum companies. Ula Ojiaku: That's awesome Jeff Sutherland: And today, we're on the sixth round of investment at OpenView Venture Partners, which was the company the six round is 525 million. There's a spin out from OpenView that I'm working with, that has around this year, 25 million. And over the years, just co-investing with the venture group I have my own investment fund of 50 million. So, we have $570 million, right this year 2021 that we're putting into Scrum companies. Agile companies, preferably Scrum. Ula Ojiaku: Now when you say Scrum companies is it that they facilitate the (Scrum) training and offer consulting services in Scrum or is it that those companies operate and you know, do what they do by adopting Scrum processes? Jeff Sutherland: Today, Scrum Inc sometimes help some of those companies, but in general, those companies are independently implementing Scrum in their organizations.   Ula Ojiaku: Right Jeff Sutherland: And okay, some of them may come to Scrum training, maybe not. But since Scrum is so widely deployed in the industry, Scrum Inc, is only one of 1000 companies doing Scrum training and that sort of stuff. So, they have a wide variety, wide area of where they can get training and also many of the startups, they already know Scrum before they started the company. They are already Agile. So, what we're interested in is to find the company that understands Agile and has the right team players, particularly at the executive level, to actually execute on it. Ula Ojiaku: No matter what the product or services (are)… Jeff Sutherland: Products or services, a lot of them are software tooling companies, but some of them are way beyond that, right? So, turns out that during COVID… COVID was a watershed. The companies that were not agile, they either went bankrupt, or they were crippled. That meant all the Agile companies that could really do this, started grabbing all the market share. And so, many of our companies, their stock price was headed for the moon during COVID. While the non-agile companies were flatlined, or are going out of business, and so the year of COVID was the best business year in the history of venture capital because of Agility. So, as a result, I'm spending half my time really working, investing in companies, and half of my time, working with Scrum (Inc.) and supporting them, helping them move forward. Ula Ojiaku: That's a very impressive resume and career story really Dr. Sutherland. I have a few questions: as you were speaking, you've called Scrum in this conversation, a process, a tooling, the technology. And you know, so for some hardcore Agilists, some people will say, you know, Agile is all about the mindset for you, what would you say that Scrum is it all of these things you've called it or would it be, you know, or it's something (else)...? Jeff Sutherland: So, certainly the (Agile) mindset is important. But from an investment point of view, if the organization can't deliver real value, quickly, agile is just a bunch of nonsense. And we have a huge amount of nonsense out there. In fact, the Standish group has been publishing for decades. 58% of Agile teams are late over budget with unhappy customers. So, when you get these hardcore Agilist, that are talking about mindset, you have to figure out ‘are they in the 42% that actually can do it or are they in the 58% that are crippled?' My major work with Scrum Inc. today is to try to get to fix the bad Scrum out there. That is the biggest problem in the Agile community. People picking up pieces of things, people picking up ideas, and then putting together and then it doesn't work. That is going to that's going to be really bad for agile in the future. If 58% of it continues not to work. So, what we found, I mean, it was really interesting. Several years ago, the senior executive (of) one of the biggest Japanese companies flew to Boston wanted meet with me. And he said to me, ‘the training is not working in Japan for Scrum.' He said, ‘I spent 10 years with Google, in Silicon Valley. So, I know what it looks like what actually works. And I can tell you, it's not working in Japan, because the training is… it's not the training of the Scrum that is high performing. And in fact, our company is 20% owned by Toyota, and we are going to be the trainers of Toyota. And we cannot deliver the training that's currently being given to Toyota, it will not work, it will not fly. And we want to create a company called Scrum Inc. Japan. And we're a multibillion-dollar company, we're ready to invest whatever it takes to make that happen.' To give them the kind of training that will produce the teams that Takeuchi and Nonaka were writing about in the first paper on Scrum. And as we work with them to figure out what needs to be in that training, we found that the Scrum Guide was only 25% of the training. Another 25% was basic Lean concepts and tooling, right? Because the original Scrum paper was all about Lean hardware companies. So Lean is fundamental to Scrum. If you don't understand it, you can't do it. And then third, there are certain patterns of performance that we've developed over the years, we spent 10 years writing a book on patterns - Scrum patterns. And there's about a dozen of those patterns that have to be implemented to get a high performing team. And finally, scaling to multiple teams. It turns out, right about this time I started working with the Japanese, I was at a conference with the Agile Leadership from Intel. And they told me that they'd introduced Scaling Frameworks into Intel division, some of which had more than 500 Scrum teams in the divisions and the Scaling Frameworks had slowed them down. And it made the senior executives furious and they threw them all out and they said, we did not want to hear the word Scrum at Intel anymore. But you guys need to go twice as fast as you're going now. So, they came to me, they said, ‘we're desperate. We have to go twice as fast. We can't even use the word “Scrum”. What should we do?' And they blamed me, they said, ‘Sutherland you're responsible you caused problem, you need to fix it.' So, I started writing down how to do what today we call Scrum at Scale. And everybody, you know, most of those people in the industry were implementing IT scaling frameworks. They were all upset. ‘Why are you writing down another framework?' Well, it's because those IT frameworks do not enable the organization to show Business Agility, and win in the market. And in the best companies in the world, they're being thrown out. So, I've had to write down how do you add, how do you go to hundreds and thousands of Scrum teams - and never slow down as you're adding more and more teams. You know, every team you add is as fast as the first team when you start. Yeah, that's what Scrum at Scale is all about. So, there's two primary things that I'm focused on today. One is to fix all this bad Scrum. Second is to fix the scaling problem. Because it turns out that if you look at the latest surveys from Forbes magazine, and the Scrum Alliance on successful Agile transformations - I learned recently, that almost every company in the world of any significance is going through an Agile transformation or continuing transformation they'd already started years ago. And 53% of them do not meet management expectations. And the MIT Sloan Business Review did an analysis of what happens if an agile transformation fails, and 67% of those companies go out of business. So, this is becoming really serious, right? To be successful today, if you're competing in any significant way, you have to be agile. And number two, if you try to be agile and fail, you have a 67% chance going out of business. And the failure rate is 53%. So, this is the problem that we're wrestling with. And half of that 53% failure is due to the bad Scrum we talked about, but the other half is due because of the leadership not being Agile. Ula Ojiaku: I was just going to say, as you said something about the leadership not being agile. In my experience, you know, as an agile coach in some organizations whilst the teams would embrace you know, Scrum and embrace Agility - the practices and the processes and everything. There's a limit to, you know, how much they can get done… Jeff Sutherland: Absolutely… Ula Ojiaku: …if the leadership are not on board. So… Jeff Sutherland: …you hit this glass ceiling. So, I've been, you know, giving presentations on Agile Transformations around the world. And I can remember multiple times I've had 300 people in the room, say, and I say okay, ‘How many of you are agile, in Agile transformations or continuing the ones you'd started?' Of course, everybody raises their hand. ‘How many of you have waterfall traditional management that expects you to deliver all the old Gantt Chart reports that we always got, and don't understand what you're doing?' There's 300 people in the room and 297 people raised their hand. I said, ‘you need to give your leadership the book by Professor Kotter called Accelerate.' Professor Kotter is one of the leading change experts of the world. Ula Ojiaku: And he also, yeah, He also wrote ‘Leading Change' as well - the book, yes. Jeff Sutherland: And in that book, he says, if the leadership of the Agile part of the organization is traditional in their mindset and requirements, the Agile Transformation will eventually fail 100% of the time. Ula Ojiaku: Those are sobering statistics in terms of, you know, the failure rate and how much of you know the success hinges on business agility and the leadership being agile as well and taking the time to know and care what it means. Yeah. Jeff Sutherland: And what's happening is that the Agile Leadership today, if you look at some of the companies that have been most successful during COVID, one of them is John Deere Corporation, the biggest farm equipment manufacturer in the world, probably the oldest. Their stock price went up more than Amazon during COVID. And the board of directors gave their Agile Leadership, the Agile Coaches, Scrum Masters, the highest award in the Corporation for producing that result. So that's another reason I'm trying to communicate to Agile people. The success and survival of your company depends on you. You think your management's going to save you but no, if they are old-style people, they are going to run that company out of business. And you need to either save it before it goes out of business or run to another company before bad things happen. Ula Ojiaku: It's impressive that, you know, John Deere being a farm equipment manufacturer… I think they were ahead of the curve you know, (compared to some of their contemporaries in that industry as well) and embraced agile ways of working. Do you know how their Agile Leadership were able to quantify their contributions to the company? Jeff Sutherland: John Deere started to get Agile more than 10 years ago. So, they've been at it a long time. But in recent years, they really started to build… build internally… Agile leadership, you know, based on my work and they started applying that across the company. I mean, the major focus has not been software actually – it's been in other parts of the company. What has to happen to run a company that's building tractors? Well, there's all kinds of things that have to happen, you know - purchasing, there's legal, there's acquiring all the pieces, it's putting them together at the assembly line, you know, software is a piece of it. You know, that's probably the easiest piece to fix with Agile, it's the rest of the company that's the challenge. They have started doing that really well which is reflected in their stock price. Ula Ojiaku: Amazing. So, you said something about you know, you're out to fix a couple of things, the problem with bad Scrum out there. And, you know, the problem with scaling agile. Jeff Sutherland: Right Ula Ojiaku: So, with respect to the first one, the point about bad Scrum, what in your experience would be the root cause of bad Scrum implementations in organizations? Jeff Sutherland: There're about 11 things, that if you fix them, the team will go twice as fast. And it's multiplicative. So, you know, we have extensive data on, you know, really big companies. What's the difference between the fastest team and the slowest teams? The fastest teams are 2000 times faster than the slowest teams. So why is that? Well, first, the team has to be small. The optimal team size is four or five people. If you have a 10-person team, that's going to take at least 50% longer to get anything done. If you go out, look at the team size, you'll see companies have even not only ten-people teams, they have 15 people in a team, 25 people in a team, okay? Those teams are never gonna meet Agile performance. Second, the backlog needs to be really ready in a sense of small, it's clearly understood, it's properly prioritized. So, you need somebody managing that backlog that can get it right, because we have extensive data for multiple case studies showing the team's production doubles immediately. As soon as you get that backlog right. So you go into many companies, you'll see, there's still arguing about what's the top priority, right? Or everything's top priority. That's just gonna create a massive mess. Third, teams are constantly interrupted. You know, the only teams I know that aren't interrupted are people… these teams and defense contractors working on top secret stuff. And they work in a locked room, the door, it says ‘no managers can enter' and they don't get interrupted. But for the rest of us, there's always somebody coming in wanting something else done. And there's a way to manage that using a pattern we call the interrupt buffer. And if you don't have that pattern implemented properly, you're gonna go half as fast. If you're lucky, you might go half as fast. Ula Ojiaku: And what do you say the Scrum Master has a part to play in making sure the interrupt buffer is there and it's enforced? Jeff Sutherland: The scrum master needs to set this all up. Fifth, in high performing teams, we see this pattern called swarming, where multiple people are working on a story together. That increases the process efficiency, which doubles the performance of the team. So, if people are specialists working independently, that team is going to be really slow. So I'm up to number five, there are six more things, but you probably want to go through them. It's very clear, what makes agile teams suck, we know exactly why. And it needs to be fixed. So, I appeal to anyone listening to this help fix bad agile, it's hurting us all. Ula Ojiaku: Thank you for sharing that. Would this be in any of any of your books or in any of your articles that you've written? Jeff Sutherland: Yeah, it's everywhere and (in) everything I've written, but the best summary, it's the red book Scrum … Scrum, The Art of Doing Twice the Work and Half the Time And we've had people pick, pick this up. A CEO in Kenya came to New York to one of my courses, he said, ‘Jeff, I just read your book. And I'm CEO with three new energy startups in Kenya. And my teams implemented that, and they're going… they're doing three times the work and a third of the time. So, your book is too conservative.' He says to me, this guy, he only read the book, he had no training. So, this book is enough to really get off on the right foot. And if you're having problems, it's enough to fix things. In fact, recently before COVID when we could get everybody together, we had an Apple employee in the class and she said, Jeff, do you know why Apple always meet its states? I said, no, you know, Apple is really secretive. They don't tell anybody anything. She says ‘it's because they do Scrum by the book.' So, I said, ‘What book?' She says, ‘The Red Book - Scrum, The Art of Doing Twice the Work and Half the Time - they do it exactly by the book.' So, again, my message to the Agilists out there: Apple is winning. They are the most valuable company in the world. And it's because they do Scrum exactly by that book. So, you probably should read it. Ula Ojiaku: Definitely. So going by the book, would you say there's any wriggle room for adapting to one's context, or is it about you know, going, ‘check- we've done page 123…' Jeff Sutherland: Well, the whole thing about adapting is fundamental to Scrum. So, one of the things I'm constantly doing in my talks, training, is I'm going back to before Scrum and reading a paper from the leading researchers on complex adaptive systems, in which they mathematically proved, you model things on the computer, that systems evolve more quickly, if they have more degrees of freedom, up until you hit a boundary where the system goes into a chaotic state. So, from the very beginning in Scrum, maximizing the freedom and the decision capability of the team has been fundamental. And we talked about this as self-organization. Now, unfortunately, that term has been so misused, misunderstood that we had to take self-organization out of the Scrum guide. And what we inserted was self-managing. And we put next to it goals, okay, the theme is self-managing to achieve a goal. And to make that happen, they need a commitment to do that. And so, this is one of the fundamental things for Agile teams that work that they have that self-managing commitment to achieve a goal. And the teams that are not working, they're fuzzy about that, right. So, we want the maximum degree of adaptation, the thing that they don't want to change is the basic structure that's in the red book, if they change that, it has the control mechanisms to allow the maximum degree of self-organization - not to go off the rails. Ula Ojiaku: Right. Jeff Sutherland: So, we see a lot of Agilists, ‘oh, you know, let's just tweak the framework this way or that way.' And then the self-organization takes a team off the rails, and then they fall into that 58% that can't deliver, they're late, they're over budget, the customers aren't happy. And so, this is the really one of the hardest things to communicate to people. There're certain things that you absolutely have to be disciplined about. You have to be more disciplined to get a great Agile team than in all ways of working. And that discipline is what allows the maximum degree of self-organization and self-determination, right? So, understanding those two things together, you know, it makes it makes people's brain explode, right? It's hard. Ula Ojiaku: But it works. Jeff Sutherland: But it works right.  Ula Ojiaku: You've already mentioned a lot of books in the course of this interview session, and these would be in the show notes. So, would there be anything any final word of advice you'd have for the leaders that would be listening to this podcast in terms of their transformation journey? Jeff Sutherland: So, one of the things we did to Scrum at Scale is that the difference between that and most of the other scaling frameworks is that it's all about the leadership. So, we need an operating leadership team, that is a Scrum team that needs a Scrum Master, a Product Owner, backlog. And its objective is to improve the Agile implementation of the organization. On the prioritization side, we need a leadership team that, led by a Chief Product Owner, that is prioritizing backlog across the organization. So, you know, I've had the Chief Product Owner of Hewlett Packard in my course, he had a $200 billion portfolio. He learned from that class. Says this class is pretty good.' He said, ‘In just one slide I figured out how to get $20 billion more a year with no additional resources'. Just by understanding how to work the framework right? At the $200 billion level. Ula Ojiaku: And you're talking about the Scrum at Scale course, right? Jeff Sutherland: No, this was a product owner course. Product Owner course. He came to it. We're now doing a Scrum at Scale… we're actually doing a Chief Product Owner course. So, a Product Owners at Scale course which it has been really well received by the leading Agile Practitioners. (They) really like that because they need to work more in the large than in the small often. Ula Ojiaku: Definitely. That means this available on the Scrum Inc site? Jeff Sutherland: Yes. Ula Ojiaku: Okay. Jeff Sutherland: So, one of the things I would recommend I would really recommend is the Scrum Field Book. It's a bunch of case studies for organizations, large and small, that have tried to take the whole organization to Scrum. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Sutherland - it's been a great pleasure having you and hopefully we could have a you know, follow up conversation sometime. Jeff Sutherland: Yes. Thanks for inviting me and glad to do it again. Ula Ojiaku: That's all we have for now. Thanks for listening. If you liked this show, do subscribe at www.agileinnovationleaders.com. Also share with friends and leave a review. This would help others find the show. I'd also love to hear from you, so please drop me an email at ula@agileinnovationleaders.com. Till next time, take care and God bless!    

Isshai Kamara: Agile Against the Odds, Navigating Resistance and Leading Agile Change   Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, we delve into the challenging world of Agile implementation with Isshai Kamara, an experienced Agilist and IT professional. Isshai shares her journey at a fintech company post-acquisition, highlighting the resistance she encountered towards Agile methodologies. With anecdotes from her time there, she sheds light on the complexities of introducing Agile in environments where traditional methods prevail and Agile roles are often dismissed. Isshai offers invaluable tips on approaching such transitions positively, initiating conversations focused on overcoming impediments, and aligning with shared goals to foster acceptance.    [IMAGE HERE] Recovering from failure, or difficult moments is a critical skill for Scrum Masters. Not only because of us, but also because the teams, and stakeholders we work with will also face these moments! We need inspiring stories to help them, and ourselves! The Bungsu Story, is an inspiring story by Marcus Hammarberg which shows how a Coach can help organizations recover even from the most disastrous situations! Learn how Marcus helped The Bungsu, a hospital in Indonesia, recover from near-bankruptcy, twice! Using Lean and Agile methods to rebuild an organization and a team! An inspiring story you need to know about! Buy the book on Amazon: The Bungsu Story - How Lean and Kanban Saved a Small Hospital in Indonesia. Twice. and Can Help You Reshape Work in Your Company. About Isshai Kamara Isshai Kamara is a seasoned IT professional with over 12 years of experience, specializing in Agile delivery roles and Scrum implementation. Initially a Technologist, he later transitioned into Project and Engineering Management. With 8 years in Agile delivery, Isshai has become an advocate for IT careers, aiding professionals in transitions and conducting bootcamps for tech roles. His extensive experience in Agile methodologies and commitment to IT career development make him a distinguished figure in the tech community. You can link with Isshai Kamara on LinkedIn and connect with Isshai Kamara on Instagram. 

In this episode, Brian Milner and Lucy O'Keefe share their journeys to becoming Certified Scrum Trainers® (CSTs). Join them as they discuss the challenges, unexpected moments, and valuable lessons learned along the way, offering insights for those considering the CST path. Overview Explore the transformative journey to becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST) with Brian Milner and Lucy O'Keefe. From the submission process to mentorship, co-training, and the rigorous Trainer Approval Committee (TAC) interviews, they unravel the intricacies of achieving CST status. Listen in for valuable tips, reflections, and inspiration for navigating the rewarding but challenging road to becoming an elite Agile trainer. Listen Now to Discover: [01:26] - Brian introduces his guest, Lucy O'Keefe, who recently achieved her Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST). [02:53] - Today’s discussion will explore the experience of becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer® with Brian and Lucy sharing their personal experiences and insights into the process of becoming a CST. [03:44] - Lucy shares what fueled her passion for becoming a CST and how her mentor—Anu Smalley—inspired her. [05:00] - Brian discusses his decision-making process for becoming a CST and why it's important to make a decision that aligns with your instincts and career goals. [06:07] - Brian and Lucy each share their journey to becoming a CST and the steps required before being eligible to pursue the trainer certification. [08:24] - Insight into the two phases of the submission process for becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer®: the materials phase and the Trainer Approval Committee (TAC) phase and the challenges along the way. [09:38] - Brian reflects on the significance of mentorship in the journey to becoming a CST and David Hawks's crucial role in opening doors and making connections with other trainers. [09:48] - Lucy acknowledges Anu's pivotal role and emphasizes the importance of these relationships, (especially considering the challenges posed by the pandemic. [12:00] - Lucy and Brian discuss the relationship-building phase involved in co-training and mentorship. [13:22] - Lucy explains the (time-intensive) nature of co-training. [14:26] - Brian shares his approach to initiating co-trainings. [15:11] - The importance of feedback and obtaining recommendation letters—a crucial element in the submission process. [16:28] - Brian and Lucy discuss the impact of mentorship on their journey, expressing gratitude for the individuals who opened doors and provided mentorship. Brian mentions David Hawks, Kert Peterson, and Lance Dacy, emphasizing the diverse perspectives and valuable insights gained from them. [17:20] - Lucy shares about the recent special episode of her podcast where she featured her mentors. [17:55] - The value of in-person training (and some of the expenses involved). [20:09] - The challenges of training in a virtual environment. [22:18] - The limitations of virtual classes and the added value of personal interactions and shared experiences during breaks. [23:38] -The Agile Mentors Podcast is brought to you by Mountain Goat Software and their Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® class. This is the only ACSPO that uses our interactive software so that breakout exercises are valuable and FUN! Plus, you will automatically receive 12 free months in the Agile Mentors Community. For more information, click on the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule. [25:17] - The lengthy process of submitting materials for Certified Scrum Trainer® approval. Brian shares his personal experience. [25:35] - Lucy explains the current two-phase process for CST approval and her experience (highlighting the changes since Brian's initial submission). [26:33] - The rigorous examination process and the scrutiny applied to every aspect of the application during the fine-tooth comb review during the TAC phase of becoming a CST. [27:00] - Lucy describes the final stages of the approval process. [27:19] - Brian reflects on the changes in the CST qualification process and emphasizes the importance of following the TAC's feedback for those who reach this stage. (Advice from Chris Li) [28:49] - Resilience and persistence in the face of potential setbacks during the CST approval process. [30:42] - An in-depth explanation of the challenging TAC (Trainer Approval Community) interview process for becoming a Certified Scrum Trainer®. [32:23] - Brian shares his personal preparation strategies and reflects on the unpredictability of TAC interviews, recounting an unexpected request during his own experience. [33:32] - Lucy shares her preparation methods and also stresses the unpredictability of TAC interviews and the importance of adaptability during the process. [34:29] - Be prepared to think on your feet. Brian shares the emergency situation he faced and a mistake during his live presentation. Plus the surprising comments he received from the committee. [37:27] - Lucy shares her unexpected experience after the committee's vote. And a valuable piece of advice for listeners. [38:33] - Embarking on the CST journey involves challenges and moments of doubt, but perseverance is crucial, as success may require multiple attempts—not everyone passes on the first try. [39:43] - Becoming a CST is a subjective process and often involves multiple attempts—it doesn’t diminish your capabilities as a trainer. Brian shares the crucial aspects of the journey. [40:13] - Lucy shares why it's important not to take rejection personally, instead viewing it as a chance to identify areas for growth and become a better trainer in the end. [41:23] - Brian emphasizes the importance of viewing the CST process as a journey—being prepared for potential setbacks, highlighting the mindset of growth and continuous learning. [42:30] - Lucy adds that the rigorous Certified Scrum Trainer® requirements aim to ensure that CSTs are among the elite trainers, making the achievement more meaningful. [43:38] - The importance of embracing each chance to enhance oneself as an Agilist and a trainer. [44:09] - Brian's words of wisdom: "Hard things that are hard to do, that just makes it all the better when you achieve them.” [44:45] - Lucy’s advice: “It's not just becoming a CST. It's what you learn on your journey that really matters." [45:25] - Congratulations to Lucy for getting her CST! Brian extends his thanks to her for being on the show. For listeners interested in continuing the discussion, you can join the conversation in the Agile Mentors Community, where they also have monthly Q&A calls. [46:58] - If you found this episode useful, please share it. Send feedback and suggestions for future episodes to podcast@mountaingoodsoftware.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. References and resources mentioned in the show: #53: Agile Coaching: Debunking Myths and Unlocking Excellence with Lucy O'Keefe #44: Transformations Take People with Anu Smalley #17: Getting There From Here: Agile Transformations with David Hawks #12: Kanban with Kert Peterson #54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy #40: Is it Time to Go Out on Your Own? Tips and Insights with Chris Li Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lucy O'Keefe has over 28 years of IT experience and has worn multiple hats in the Agile world - developer, Product Owner, Scrum Master, and now, Certified Scrum Trainer® (CST) where she uses her experience to ensure each student has a great training experience.

This week, Justin Thatil, your host, welcomes Quincy Jordan and Pamela Dukes, Olympic Athlete and Agilist, who engage in a thoughtful conversation regarding how these two areas of expertise intertwine and how the abilities applied to professional sports enhance her role as an Agilist.   In this episode, you will learn about Pamela's journey as a professional athlete, the lessons learned, and the challenges that brought the knowledge that enriched her experience in the Agile arena.   Key Takeaways Pamela shares her most significant lessons as an Olympian and Hall of Fame athlete: “What got you here will keep you here.” You don't need a Herculean effort to go on; you just have to stay consistent. The Team has to support each other. If you are not competing, you are busy cheering for someone else. Quincy, who also went through his athlete years, brings two of the most meaningful teachings he obtained from his coach: All the way through (you don't stop until you are done). Run your race (stay away from comparisons). The Scrum framework mirrors the structure of College Athletics. The Head Coach was the Chief Product Officer, and his assistants were the product officers. The Scrum Master was the Team captain. The plans set for training could be weekly, monthly, or yearly, and once arranged, that was the guideline the athletes follow every day. Everyone knew the plan, but when circumstances changed, the plan was adjusted accordingly. These dynamics work similarly in Scrum; there are planned sprints and releases. At the end of each week, they would do competition drills where performance was tested (which looks like a sprints review) followed by a talk, reflecting on what could be improved (a lot like retrospectives). Get the lead, keep the lead. It is easier to do well and keep doing well than getting into a technical or cultural debt and getting out of it. Empower your Team: The success criteria should be how well you teach others. Practicing skill sharing is critically important. Leaders should walk away from the dangerous “hero complex”; a true leader teaches others how to do what they do. No one is particularly responsible; a Team succeeds and walks through challenges together. Each Team member has to do their part for the entire Team to reach the goal.   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!  

Aria Omidvar: The Product Owner vs. Project Manager Dilemma, A Difficult Balance Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: People-First Product Ownership Aria describes an exemplary Product Owner known for his unwavering commitment to learning and professional development. This PO's proactive approach included avid reading and active participation in workshops and seminars. He invested heavily in his own growth, and his presence within the team was palpable, emphasizing a people-first mindset. The PO's belief in the team, coupled with his fearlessness in addressing conflicts, set him apart as a remarkable Product Owner.  The Bad Product Owner: PO vs. Project Manager Dilemma, A Difficult Balance Aria delves into a common anti-pattern where a Product Owner takes on project management responsibilities, which can hinder agile software development. He highlights the mismatch between these roles, referencing insights from Marty Cagan. Aria notes the temptation for POs to become intermediaries for upper management. He shares a success story where open communication and willingness to listen enabled a positive shift in the PO's approach. This episode provides valuable guidance on avoiding pitfalls in the Product Owner role.   [IMAGE HERE] Are you having trouble helping the team work well with their Product Owner? We've put together a course to help you work on the collaboration team-product owner. You can find it at bit.ly/coachyourpo. 18 modules, 8+ hours of modules with tools and techniques that you can use to help teams and PO's collaborate.   About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: The Many Layers to Scrum Master Success Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria explores the layers of success for Scrum Masters, highlighting the transformation of team culture. He assesses success through the lens of team self-reliance, self-organization, and ownership of work. Aria's metric for success involves equipping teams with tools and practices that enable them to effectively carry out their responsibilities. This episode offers valuable insights into the multifaceted nature of success in the role of a Scrum Master. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Making Retrospectives Clearly Different From Other Meetings and Work Aria shares his preferred retrospective format, emphasizing the importance of a distinct mindset for this higher-order team work. He advocates for creativity and mindfulness, aiming to set retrospectives apart from regular team activities with a specific format he shares in this episode. Aria offers practical tips such as note-taking, root cause analysis, and solution brainstorming during discussions. He underscores the value of critical thinking, focusing on root causes, and showing the path to solutions. Aria's approach promotes effective retrospectives as a catalyst for meaningful team improvement.   [IMAGE HERE] Retrospectives, planning sessions, vision workshops, we are continuously helping teams learn about how to collaborate in practice! In this Actionable Agile Tools book, Jeff Campbell shares some of the tools he's learned over a decade of coaching Agile Teams. The pragmatic coaching book you need, right now! Buy Actionable Agile Tools on Amazon, or directly from the author, and supercharge your facilitation toolbox!    About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: Lessons from a Top-Down Agile Transformation Journey Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria recounts his involvement in a top-down, multi-layered agile transformation in a company with five teams. Despite management's drive for change, the transformation faced resistance from the teams on the ground. After six months, it became evident that morale and engagement had plummeted, and the desired outcomes were not met. Aria attempted widespread training, but this approach backfired. He learned the importance of focusing on one major change at a time, prioritizing people, and fine-tuning direction for successful transformations. The episode serves as a valuable guide for navigating complex organizational shifts.   [IMAGE HERE] As Scrum Master we work with change continuously! Do you have your own change framework that provides the guidance, and queues you need when working with change? The Lean Change Management framework is a fully defined, lean-startup inspired change framework that can be used as the backbone of any change process! You can buy Lean Change Management the book at Amazon. Also available in French, Spanish, German and Portuguese.   About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: Friendship or Performance, The Hard Dilemma Scrum Teams Sometimes Face Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria shares a common team pitfall: sacrificing trust, transparency, and courage for camaraderie. In this case, a team's cohesion eroded as they prioritized friendliness over addressing performance issues. One underperforming developer strained the team's efforts, despite trying to help that team member. The team's hesitancy to confront the issue led to a painful breakdown. Aria emphasizes proactive communication and recommends 'The Hard Thing about Hard Things' as a resource. He underscores the importance of clear warnings and transparent discussions to salvage a struggling team. Featured Book of the Week: Peopleware: Productive Projects and Teams by DeMarco and Lister Aria discusses the profound impact of the book "Peopleware," which predates the modern Agile movement. He notes its timeless relevance, emphasizing its focus not only on software but also on the crucial element of 'peopleware.' Despite lacking current Agile terminology, the book remains remarkably insightful. Aria also references Fred Brooks' "Mythical Man-Month" in his exploration of timeless books that have influenced the Agile movement.   [IMAGE HERE] Do you wish you had decades of experience? Learn from the Best Scrum Masters In The World, Today! The Tips from the Trenches - Scrum Master edition audiobook includes hours of audio interviews with SM's that have decades of experience: from Mike Cohn to Linda Rising, Christopher Avery, and many more. Super-experienced Scrum Masters share their hard-earned lessons with you. Learn those today, make your teams awesome!     About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter. 

Aria Omidvar: Rebuilding Trust In Your Scrum Team, After A Big Disappointment Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Aria, a Scrum Master, recounts a challenging situation where his team faced significant changes, including losing key members and transitioning to remote work. He attempted to address the issues through a retrospective but faced resistance in setting up follow-up sessions. This led to a team member deeming the retro "useless," which left Aria feeling disheartened. As a developer and Scrum Master, Aria reflects on the importance of open communication and acknowledges his loss of faith in the team at that time. Ultimately, he grapples with regaining faith in his team, highlighting the complexity of his role in this critical juncture.   [IMAGE HERE] Recovering from failure, or difficult moments is a critical skill for Scrum Masters. Not only because of us, but also because the teams, and stakeholders we work with will also face these moments! We need inspiring stories to help them, and ourselves! The Bungsu Story, is an inspiring story by Marcus Hammarberg which shows how a Coach can help organizations recover even from the most disastrous situations! Learn how Marcus helped The Bungsu, a hospital in Indonesia, recover from near-bankruptcy, twice! Using Lean and Agile methods to rebuild an organization and a team! An inspiring story you need to know about! Buy the book on Amazon: The Bungsu Story - How Lean and Kanban Saved a Small Hospital in Indonesia. Twice. and Can Help You Reshape Work in Your Company.   About Aria Omidvar Aria has 4+ years of experience serving as Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Agile Coach (CSM, A-CSM, CSPO) from single teams to multiple teams and the whole software organization. He's a Software Engineer turned Software Developer turned Peopleware Developer and Agilist. You can link with Aria Omidvar on LinkedIn and connect with Aria Omidvar on Twitter.

Justin Spears is the founder of MXI Consulting and a seasoned business management executive with a passion for driving growth and transformation. As a United States Navy veteran, Justin brings a wealth of experience in directing complex projects and programs, launching new divisions and programs, and driving continuous improvement across organizations. He is a certified Scrum Master, certified Safe 5 Agilist, and holds certifications in Change Management, Design Thinking, and Lean Six Sigma. With an M.A. in Intellectual Leadership and an M.B.A. in Entrepreneurship and Innovation, Justin is a strategic thinker who provides expert guidance in entrepreneurship, change management, business growth, industry expansion, product development, organizational culture, and Agile and LEAN management. He has a demonstrated history of developing and implementing scalable programs in both government and commercial industries, directing change initiatives, and leading process modifications and continuous improvements. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/vets2pm/support

"It's not just innovation for progress, but to remain nimble and adaptable" - Rob Penney Rob Penney is Skanska's National Director of Continuous Improvement. A certified six sigma black belt, certified SAFe 5 Agilist and advanced lean certified practitioner, Rob currently leads the National Continuous Improvement Committee (NCIC), a 20-member team of Lean experts and facilitators who create a culture of continuous improvement in the field and in Skanska offices around the country. Rob is based in the Philadelphia office and directly supports the Office of the COO and the regional executive officers. Rob has been with Skanska since 2008 working in operations, preconstruction, labor and cost forecasting, and continuous improvement at Skanska's Philadelphia, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle offices over his career. He has a degree from Drexel University and certifications from Villanova University (CSSBB), the Virginia Mason Institute (Advanced Lean Certified), and is a Certified SAFe 5 Agilist. He currently resides in Philadelphia, PA and enjoys mountain biking, endurance racing, and video editing. In this episode, you'll discover: The role of innovation in relevancy and agility Fostering a culture of embracing strategy and innovation Creating incremental shifts in thinking for major changes  How you can create your own role to scale faster  Where to follow order, where to disrupt it  And so much more.  Show notes If you enjoyed this episode, and you've learnt something or it inspired you in some way, I'd love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Take a screenshot of you listening on your device, and post it to your Instagram Stories, and tag me, @elinormoshe_ or Elinor Moshe on LinkedIn.   Join the home of young guns here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/weareyoungguns    

Greg Miller: Five Qualities of Great Product Owners Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: Five Qualities of Great Product Owners In this segment, Greg highlights a specific example of a remarkable Product Owner who would physically visit the team's building two days a week and sit closely with them, establishing accessibility and close collaboration. What made her stand out was her deep knowledge of the product, as she had been a previous customer and actively used the product being developed. Furthermore, the great product owner was unafraid to provide valuable insights and articulate why users needed certain features, even if they hadn't explicitly requested them. She actively participated in every sprint review, where the team would allow her to test the product live and provide immediate feedback. Greg recalls this Product Owner as an integral part of the team, both professionally and personally, emphasizing her pleasant demeanor and strong team integration. Overall, this segment showcases the qualities of a great product owner: accessibility, deep product knowledge, proactive involvement in sprint reviews, and a strong sense of collaboration and team integration. Such attributes contribute to effective communication, understanding user needs, and ultimately delivering a successful product. The Bad Product Owner: Building Bridges with Product Owners, to Help Scrum Teams, and PO's Succeed In this segment, Greg highlights an example of a Product Owner anti-pattern, where a project manager with limited training and a negative attitude was assigned as the Product Owner for the Scrum team. This led to issues such as micromanagement and team dissatisfaction. Greg emphasizes the importance of building a personal relationship with the product owner and understanding their underlying fears and motivations. He also recommends the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie as a resource for effective communication and relationship-building. This episode sheds light on the challenges of product ownership and provides valuable tips for fostering a positive and collaborative environment.   [IMAGE HERE] Are you having trouble helping the team work well with their Product Owner? We've put together a course to help you work on the collaboration team-product owner. You can find it at bit.ly/coachyourpo. 18 modules, 8+ hours of modules with tools and techniques that you can use to help teams and PO's collaborate.   About Gregory (Greg) Miller Greg is an Agilist and Coach who has been working in Agile software development for more than 10 years. He hosts The Agile Within podcast with Mark Metze (a previous guest), which promotes agile behaviors and mindset. He lives in Ohio with his wife and four children, two of which are twins. You can link with Gregory (Greg) Miller on LinkedIn and connect with Gregory (Greg) Miller on Twitter.

Gregory Miller: Mastering the Art of Agile Leadership, The Building Blocks of a Successful Scrum Master Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Greg dives into the key elements that contribute to the success of a Scrum Master. Drawing from his experience, he highlights: Firstly, building strong relationships and establishing trust with team members is paramount. A successful Scrum Master actively listens, empathizes, and makes themselves available to support the team. They prioritize collaboration and create an environment where team members feel safe and supported. Secondly, a successful Scrum Master demonstrates a deep understanding of the Scrum framework and ensures its effective implementation. They facilitate Scrum events, encourage adherence to Agile principles, and address any impediments that hinder the team's progress. They act as servant leaders, advocating for the team's needs and fostering a culture of continuous learning and improvement. Moreover, they invest in their own growth by seeking opportunities for personal development and staying connected with the Agile community. Overall, a successful Scrum Master excels in building relationships, guiding the team through the Scrum process, and serving as a catalyst for growth and improvement. Their ability to foster collaboration, trust, and continuous learning sets the stage for a successful Agile software development journey. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Kudos/Start/Stop/Continue framework, to emphasize focus on actions from the retrospective In this segment, Greg shares his favorite retrospective format and highlights the importance of generating actionable outcomes. He begins by evaluating the team's readiness and chooses the appropriate retrospective format accordingly. When working with a new team, he utilizes a shared whiteboard and follows the Kudos/Start/Stop/Continue framework. However, he discovered that some teams expressed dissatisfaction with retrospectives because they lacked actionable items despite having productive conversations. Greg emphasizes the significance of combining meaningful discussions with concrete action items. He suggests voting on at least one item to prioritize for action and maintaining an action item list backlog to ensure follow-through. By incorporating these practices, teams can have engaging retrospectives that lead to tangible improvements.   [IMAGE HERE] Retrospectives, planning sessions, vision workshops, we are continuously helping teams learn about how to collaborate in practice! In this Actionable Agile Tools book, Jeff Campbell shares some of the tools he's learned over a decade of coaching Agile Teams. The pragmatic coaching book you need, right now! Buy Actionable Agile Tools on Amazon, or directly from the author, and supercharge your facilitation toolbox!    About Gregory (Greg) Miller Greg is an Agilist and Coach who has been working in Agile software development for more than 10 years. He hosts The Agile Within podcast with Mark Metze (a previous guest), which promotes agile behaviors and mindset. He lives in Ohio with his wife and four children, two of which are twins. You can link with Gregory (Greg) Miller on LinkedIn and connect with Gregory (Greg) Miller on Twitter.

Gregory Miller: Prioritization as a Catalyst, How Prioritization Revolutionized Agile in A Scrum Team Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Greg recounts his involvement in a change process as a Business Analyst (BA). Hired for his Agile expertise, he was assigned to the manufacturing engineering section of the company, which already embraced Lean and Kaizen principles. However, in the software side, there was a lack of backlog and prioritization. Greg took initiative by introducing a clear prioritization method, emphasizing the need for a dedicated Product Owner (PO), and establishing regular meetings with managers to prioritize their work. Through his efforts, a force-ranked list of stories was created, allowing for efficient and streamlined prioritization. Greg shares valuable tips based on his experience, including the importance of defining a simple prioritization method, fostering a collaborative mindset among managers, and ensuring stakeholder buy-in. He also highlights the significance of checking one's ego at the door and focusing on what is best for the company's success. Overall, this episode demonstrates the transformative impact of implementing prioritization and backlog management in an organization, even when Agile principles are already embraced in certain areas. Greg's proactive approach and insights provide valuable guidance for achieving efficient and effective change processes.   [IMAGE HERE] As Scrum Master we work with change continuously! Do you have your own change framework that provides the guidance, and queues you need when working with change? The Lean Change Management framework is a fully defined, lean-startup inspired change framework that can be used as the backbone of any change process! You can buy Lean Change Management the book at Amazon. Also available in French, Spanish, German and Portuguese.   About Gregory (Greg) Miller Greg is an Agilist and Coach who has been working in Agile software development for more than 10 years. He hosts The Agile Within podcast with Mark Metze (a previous guest), which promotes agile behaviors and mindset. He lives in Ohio with his wife and four children, two of which are twins. You can link with Gregory (Greg) Miller on LinkedIn and connect with Gregory (Greg) Miller on Twitter

Gregory Miller: From High Performers to Demoralization, And How The Product Owner Role Can Destroy A Scrum Team Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Greg reflects on a team that self-destructed, causing him significant pain. The team, previously considered an exemplary high-performing unit, faced external factors and decisions that disrupted their dynamics. Leadership discussions about replacing their product, the removal of their Product Owner (PO), and a lack of support left the team directionless and demoralized. Greg recognizes the detrimental impact of removing the PO, highlighting it as an anti-pattern that ultimately led to the team's disbandment. This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of providing support, direction, and maintaining team cohesion to foster a thriving and motivated workforce. Featured Book of the Week: "The Scrum Pocket Guide" by Gunther Verheyen In this segment, Greg talks about his most influential book for Scrum Masters, which is "The Scrum Pocket Guide" by Gunther Verheyen, a previous guest on the podcast. He highly recommends this book, as it has been invaluable to him in his role. Greg frequently refers to it and even keeps it on his nightstand for easy access. One aspect that stands out to Greg is Gunther's emphasis on the values side of Agile. The book delves into why the Scrum values are significant and explores their importance in the context of Scrum. Greg appreciates this focus on values as a fundamental aspect of Agile practices. For further exploration of the Scrum values, Greg suggests referring to the values section in the Scrum Guide. Overall, "The Scrum Pocket Guide" has had a profound impact on Greg's understanding of Scrum and serves as a go-to resource for him as a Scrum Master.   [IMAGE HERE] Do you wish you had decades of experience? Learn from the Best Scrum Masters In The World, Today! The Tips from the Trenches - Scrum Master edition audiobook includes hours of audio interviews with SM's that have decades of experience: from Mike Cohn to Linda Rising, Christopher Avery, and many more. Super-experienced Scrum Masters share their hard-earned lessons with you. Learn those today, make your teams awesome!     About Gregory (Greg) Miller Greg is an Agilist and Coach who has been working in Agile software development for more than 10 years. He hosts The Agile Within podcast with Mark Metze (a previous guest), which promotes agile behaviors and mindset. He lives in Ohio with his wife and four children, two of which are twins. You can link with Gregory (Greg) Miller on LinkedIn and connect with Gregory (Greg) Miller on Twitter.

Gregory Miller: The Importance of Relationship Building in Agile, And How To Prepare For A New Team Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Greg shares a story during a time of large company changes. He was assigned to a team that had previously struggled with a problematic Scrum Master. Greg had a conversation with the team's manager to understand their expectations. However, he failed to address the manager's assumption that the Scrum Master should perform the team's work. As a result, the team remained confused about the role of the Scrum Master, and they constantly questioned Greg's activities. The failure, in Greg's perspective, was his inability to establish a stronger relationship with the manager and gain a deeper understanding of their expectations. Greg emphasizes the importance of building relationships with the teams one works with, even if it means setting aside the framework of Scrum temporarily. In this episode, we recommend the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie as a valuable resource for improving interpersonal skills. Greg also shares a couple of tips based on his experience. Firstly, he suggests sitting next to the team from day one to foster a sense of belonging. Additionally, spending quality time with the team can help in developing a better understanding of their dynamics and needs. Greg emphasizes that effective work happens through people and building relationships is crucial for success. Greg's failure to build a better relationship with the manager resulted in confusion within the team and a lack of clarity about the Scrum Master's responsibilities.   [IMAGE HERE] Recovering from failure, or difficult moments is a critical skill for Scrum Masters. Not only because of us, but also because the teams, and stakeholders we work with will also face these moments! We need inspiring stories to help them, and ourselves! The Bungsu Story, is an inspiring story by Marcus Hammarberg which shows how a Coach can help organizations recover even from the most disastrous situations! Learn how Marcus helped The Bungsu, a hospital in Indonesia, recover from near-bankruptcy, twice! Using Lean and Agile methods to rebuild an organization and a team! An inspiring story you need to know about! Buy the book on Amazon: The Bungsu Story - How Lean and Kanban Saved a Small Hospital in Indonesia. Twice. and Can Help You Reshape Work in Your Company.   About Gregory (Greg) Miller Greg is an Agilist and Coach who has been working in Agile software development for more than 10 years. He hosts The Agile Within podcast with Mark Metze (a previous guest), which promotes agile behaviors and mindset. He lives in Ohio with his wife and four children, two of which are twins. You can link with Gregory (Greg) Miller on LinkedIn and connect with Gregory (Greg) Miller on Twitter.

Our 24th Show (1st of the New Year) on our experiment for a Tuesday Night Show with Tech 8pm EST 2/14/23. If you have any topics, cities, companies or countries you would like us to start reporting on for jobs and agile business news,  Topics: Rolling reporting, Agilist and Market Up/Down? Please send us a message or comment below. Cheers & Happy Scrumming. Please like and subscribe and share 5amMesterScrum.  Please send me your topics.   You are are doing Great Please Keep on Sharing. 5am Mester Scrum Happy Scrumming Video Version: https://youtube.com/live/pGgOzRLXnsY Meetup Group: https://www.meetup.com/5ammesterscrum-agile-and-scrum-coaching-meetup-group/ Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum) 

Our 23rd Show (1st of the New Year) on our experiment for a Tuesday Night Show with Tech 8pm EST 2/7/23. If you have any topics, cities, companies or countries you would like us to start reporting on for jobs and agile business news,  Topics: Rolling reporting, Agilist and Market Up/Down? Please send us a message or comment below. Cheers & Happy Scrumming. Please like and subscribe and share 5amMesterScrum.  Please send me your topics.   You are are doing Great Please Keep on Sharing. 5am Mester Scrum Happy Scrumming video version: https://youtube.com/live/H71VeDRAYMY New Agile Slack Channel: https://5ammesterscrum.com/5ammesterscrum-slack-channel/ Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum)   

Our 22nd Show (1st of the New Year) on our experiment for a Tuesday Night Show with Tech 8pm EST 1/31/23. If you have any topics, cities, companies or countries you would like us to start reporting on for jobs and agile business news,  Topics: Rolling reporting, Agilist and Market Up/Down? Please send us a message or comment below. Cheers & Happy Scrumming. Please like and subscribe and share 5amMesterScrum.  Please send me your topics.   You are are doing Great Please Keep on Sharing. 5am Mester Scrum Happy Scrumming, video version: https://youtube.com/live/h0j_-cOUfp8 Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum)  

Our 21st Show (1st of the New Year) on our experiment for a Tuesday (actually Wednesday) Night Show with Tech 8pm EST 1/25/23. If you have any topics, cities, companies or countries you would like us to start reporting on for jobs and agile business news,  Topics: Rolling reporting, Agilist and Market Up/Down? Please send us a message or comment below. Cheers & Happy Scrumming. Please like and subscribe and share 5amMesterScrum.  Please send me your topics.   You are are doing Great Please Keep on Sharing. 5am Mester Scrum Happy Scrumming, video version: https://youtu.be/-_8T7UE_Du0 Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum)

Our 20th Show (1st of the New Year) on our experiment for a Tuesday Night Show with Tech 8pm EST 1/10/23. If you have any topics, cities, companies or countries you would like us to start reporting on for jobs and agile business news,  Topics: Rolling reporting, Agilist and Market Up/Down? Please send us a message or comment below. Cheers & Happy Scrumming. Please like and subscribe and share 5amMesterScrum.  Please send me your topics.   You are are doing Great Please Keep on Sharing. 5am Mester Scrum Video Version: https://youtu.be/Dv7iUTmrD4Y Happy Scrumming  Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum) 

Our 19th Show on our new experiment for a Tuesday Night Show with Tech 8pm EST 11/29/22. If you have any topics, cities, companies or countries you would like us to start reporting on for jobs and agile business news,  Topics: Rolling reporting, Agilist and Market Up/Down? Please send us a message or comment below. Cheers & Happy Scrumming. Please like and subscribe and share 5amMesterScrum.  Please send me your topics.   You are are doing Great Please Keep on Sharing. 5am Mester Scrum Social Media: - search 5amMesterScrum or #5amMesterScrum  and you should find us and if not please let us know LinkedIn, Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok     Podcasts: (search 5amMesterScrum) 

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by Andrea Floyd to explore the concept of change.   In this episode, Andrea and Dan talk about the critical importance of change, since as an Agilist, what needs to be embraced as always present is change. Change is involved in every part of an Agile journey, it is a way of working and a way of dealing with people. They also address the significance of being mindful of the impact change can have on people and the organization.   Key Takeaways Change is constant, make it accessible. Change doesn't have to feel threatening, instead, it needs to invite curiosity and engagement. If you are considering change, think about how you are presenting the topic so you are inviting people in, rather than making them want to run from the conversation. First, it is important to set a safe environment to start the dialogue, then invite diverse ideas and thought. Explore your today before trying to think in a different future. Incremental change is a way to make people comfortable with the change they are making. Understanding the intention behind the change is a key part of its success. Change is hard. While you are changing, life doesn't stop, the train is still moving down the track. Keep in mind that every person reacts to change differently. Inspection and adaption are critical. Start with small changes! Keep your goal in mind and come up with a road map for the change you are looking for. Don't forget to celebrate the achievements and the people who contribute to making that change possible. Once a change is going, how do you prevent people from reverting? An organization needs people who offer support and reinforcement when things are chaotic.   Mentioned in this Episode: Agile Alliance 2022, Nashville, Tennessee   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!