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Scott Trench is the CEO and President of BiggerPockets. Scott has Dedicated his Career to Helping ordinary Americans Build Wealth in Part through Real Estate Investing. Since joining BiggerPockets in 2014, Scott has Authored the Bestselling Wealth-building book “Set for Life” and joined Mindy Jensen as Co-host of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. In this episode we talked about: Founding a tiny Startup called BiggerPockets Scott's first real estate purchase Scott's Professional Development The Evolution of Scott's Investing Career 2014-2021 Partnerships Publishing with BiggerPockets Life as the CEO The Money Podcast 2021-2022 Outlook Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/scotttrench Instagram @scott_trench Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm Jennifer galley and my special guest today. As usual as Scott trench, Scott trench is the CEO and president of bigger pockets.    Scott has dedicated his career to helping ordinary Americans build wealth in part through real estate investing. Since joining BiggerPockets in 2014, Scott has authored the bestselling wealth building book set for life and joined Mindy Jensen as cohost of the bigger pockets, money podcast, Scott, how's it going? Hey,    Scott (52s): It's going great. Thanks for having me.    Jesse (54s): Yeah, my pleasure to have you good to finally connect. I don't know if, if you were at BP con last, was it now two years ago when we were in Austin, Texas, where are you at that event?    Scott (1m 5s): I was at, well, I, I w we had one in Nashville, Tennessee. That was that. Yeah, it was, I was at that one    Jesse (1m 11s): Nashville. Now I'm mixing them up. I was in Austin for another real estate thing. Yeah, absolutely. It was a national first thing I did. I got off the plane. Just see you guy holding a guitar. I'm like, I'm in Nashville.    Scott (1m 21s): Yeah. I went to school there and it's a wonderful city, you know, maybe might've influenced that as the choice for the, the conference back then, but awesome.    Jesse (1m 30s): So, yeah, I guess I probably would have crossed paths with you at that point, but I didn't realize that you were with the organization for, for such a long time in 2014. So back then, how did, how did you get your start with, with that organization?    Scott (1m 45s): Yeah, so I joined BiggerPockets, well, I started my career as a financial analyst at a fortune 500 company, and immediately decided I wanted to become financially free rather than climb the corporate ladder. And so I found a company called BiggerPockets and their podcasts and started listening to it and thinking about real estate investing and early retirement, the fire movements. And so I kind of combined the two spent as little as I possibly could and bought a house hack one year out of college after saving up my, my funds and simultaneously, you know, I started my career in August, 2013 by August, 2014.    I was simultaneously under contract on my first duplex and a new employee at a tiny startup called BiggerPockets as the director of operations. I'm working alongside Brandon Turner and Josh dork and the founder    Jesse (2m 32s): Right on. So you were basically you're in school in a, was it a Vanderbilt? A university? I think last time I checked this online. Yep. Go doors. There you go. And so you buy your first property. Tell us that. Tell us that story. What was, what was your first foray into, into real estate investing?    Scott (2m 50s): Sure. It was a duplex in a, the Northeast corner of Denver called Cole Clayton, and it was a up and coming area and I bought a duplex for $240,000 needed some work, rented out each, each unit and, or rent out. The other unit lived in half, had a roommate. And that was kind of the start to my career. I put down 5%, $12,000 as a, as the down payment. Other side rented for like 1150 mortgage was 15, 50 roommate, five 50 in rent. So I'm barely breaking even, maybe it's paying a little bit to live, but certainly a lot better than paying rent.    Jesse (3m 26s): Yeah, absolutely. It's not a, it's funny, it's very similar to, to my first investment and it was 248,000, something like that, but it was a somewhat similar to a host hack. I just saw a bunch of guys in, in college that were basically buying properties and renting out to us. And I was like, what's going on? I'm missing something here. So in terms of, in terms of how you progressed through real estate and just in general with the bigger pockets show, so you're in there, you start in bigger pockets at that time. Yeah. I mean, was, it was bigger pockets, the impetus for you to invest in real estate or did invest in investing in real estate, uncover bigger pockets for you?    Scott (4m 4s): I was a fan of the idea of real estate. So when I started my career in 2013 in August, and I wanted to invest in real estate, it probably around December of that year, January. So six months after I started working, I just ran into a very simple problem, which is I didn't have the down payment. So I just needed a few more months. And so I was listening to BiggerPockets while saving up that down payment for that first duplex house hack. And in the process, I was, I drank the Kool-Aid. I joined the cult, whatever you want to call it and became a huge fan. That's when I met Josh Dworkin through kind of a networking thing in, in, in Denver is a guy I was meeting to take to lunch, a local real estate event.    Josh and Brandon on the podcast told me, go meet local real estate investors in your local market. And that's how you can get into this. So I did, and I took one of them and I joined a, an entrepreneur group, a mastermind at seven o'clock on Thursday mornings and took each one of the guys in that mastermind group out to lunch. One of them happened to work in the same co-working space as Josh Orkin. And so I was like, oh my God, you're my hero. You changed my life. I'm doing all this stuff. I'm going to get my first house, like by the end of the year, which I did.    And that's how I met him. And he paid that turned into a job interview after me, pestering him a few more times,    Jesse (5m 16s): Right on. So I mean, a bunch of our listeners have either, you know, members of bigger pockets or have seen the community online for context. Cause I remember it back then. It is not anywhere near what it is today. What was that like being part of, part of that at such an early stage in its development?    Scott (5m 38s): Well, well, for me, what was it like being at an early stage? I mean, you did everything right? So we were, I was, I was learning as much as I possibly could about operations, about growth hacking, which is, you know, internet marketing, as much as I could about real estate investing. I was trying to as much time as I could in the forums and meeting people, meeting users, posting, building my own portfolio, all that kind of stuff. So I mean, my days would be, I would bike in to save money, of course, you know, show up at around eight and then work until five or six and then Josh would go home and then I would be allowed to write for the blog and my after hours.    So that was my day for a lot of these weeks is doing that kind of stuff. And, and you just learn everything. And gradually, I think I'm just kind of the type of person who's going to stick my hand up and volunteer for every opportunity, even if it kind of begins to get a little overwhelming. And so gradually I kind of did more and more of the work that maybe some other folks didn't want to do, like managing, you know, teams and, you know, dealing with the problems and the finances and the, you know, data and those kinds of things. And so I began to take over more and more of an operations capacity over time, but yeah, the early days were just really fun, lots of creative ideas, you just thought of something and did it, you know, created a lot of problems of like, we have all these little ideas that we thought of 15 years ago or seven years ago now, and they're not really well-maintained anymore.    We've got other parts of the site that exploded like the podcast and those kinds of things. And so there's a whole bunch of history here. I think that was created then. And, and, and in the time proceeding my arrival to the company. So it was, I think it was just really exciting, but there was a sentiment like this is inevitably going to be huge, this, this deck, because we're helping people and it's a cult. And, you know, you can see how much value that people are getting from this and their net worth and their wealth and their freedom is just constantly evolving. And we've got so many success stories and so many people who are doing all the right things and everyone's debating all of the, the nuances of this and really intelligent and exciting way that is just, you don't see anywhere else.    And so that was, you know, that, that was, I think the sentiment or how I felt at the time about it at least.    Jesse (7m 53s): Yeah. It's really cool to hear that, that feeling just the, you know, this is going to be something big for me. I had somebody on the podcast a few weeks ago and for myself, just based in Toronto, I would say about 60% of the listeners are US-based the balance. I would say the majority of the balance are, are Canadians. And then, you know, a few over the pond here and there, but somebody was on the show talking about resources. And I was like, you know, if you're not using the, you know, key words, Canada, us cross border, like just things like that, where you can actually get into articles where people are talking about something so specific to what you're talking about, that you, anywhere else on the internet, even if you type in Reddit or forums, you don't get that same level of granularity that you do with bigger pockets.    Scott (8m 37s): Yeah. I think that's what makes the company special is as you get this nuance, there, there are people making money in every type of real estate and directly disagreeing with each other about the right way to make that, that money. Should you allow pets in your enter and your rentals? Heck no. Heck yes. Right. Like AB I only, I only read the pets. Yeah. Yeah. Like the pet, you know, I bought the I'm on the side of definitely allow the pets that increases your applicant pool and you get way more qualified applicants for that. But, but you know that that's a nuance that's debated heavily on a lot of these things, right.    The 1% rule, you know, like all of these different topics are, I think you can get that nuance and you can get it locally, which I think is pretty cool.    Jesse (9m 17s): Hmm. So how was it for you from, you know, 2014 up till today? So you're, you're doing operations, you're, you're kind of dealing with this real estate startup. What is your investing career looking at? Looking like during that time and, and how was that navigating, you know, the day job with, with investing as well?    Scott (9m 37s): Yeah, so I, I took a little bit different approach than say, Brandon did, Brandon Vernon is now doing incredible stuff with these, these mobile home parks and all that kind of stuff. But at the time he was buying kind of like 40, $50,000 units in rural Washington and that kind of stuff. And that was how he was building his portfolio. And, you know, the properties I'm purchasing here in Denver, one unit might be $300,000, right. And so it's a completely different price point and different type of investing. And so my, my activity set with real estate investing has been much less intense than maybe some other investors or maybe like Brandon Turner's, for example, because I've been buying, you know, about a duplex, then I got another duplex.    Then I got a quad Plex. Now I'm buying my fourth property in seven years, which is another duplex. And the asset value across this is going to be close to like $3 million across those 10 units. And, you know, that's, there's a different appreciation, potential and rent inflation and that kind of stuff that's been going on. And my goal, my philosophy is I'm going to buy slow and steady once every year, once every 18 months, that kind of range and just pile up the portfolio over 50 years and through the ups and downs of the market, I think I'm going to benefit from Denver rent and price appreciation in a way that will really carry a lot of my portfolio.    So it's a little bit more of a passive approach. It's not a get rich quick, but it has produced incredible results for me so far with us. And, you know, really allows me to spend most of my attention on my job here at BiggerPockets. So I also invest in some syndications and I dumped a lot of money into index funds. So I've got rentals, index funds, BiggerPockets, you got the portfolio there.    Jesse (11m 23s): So for, for investing, I mean, that's not dissimilar to, you've heard, probably heard this on the podcast or in the forums where everything right now, every market that's a downtown market is incredibly hot and it's very hard to, to break in to different markets in terms of the way you're investing. It sounds like you're basically, you're not jumping on anything. If you find something that makes sense and it works, then you'll potentially invest in it in terms of how you're purchasing these, that you mentioned, you invest in some syndications, but for your core real estate, is that stuff that you typically do on your own, you partner with, what does that look like?    Scott (11m 57s): Yeah, so I, I partner on those deals with a business partner here in Denver and we kind of, it's a, it's a great relationship. We've been friends for a long time and we kind of both jointly manage things as we're, as we're able to, we have a property manager as well now with that. And yeah, I mean, we just kind of handle those problems as they come up right. On    Jesse (12m 18s): One thing I've, I've at least seen just having people on the podcast where, you know, I've mentioned either before or after the show, we'll mention bigger pockets. And if they're larger podcasts, you know, I've had people be like, you know, I, I don't want to mention them. They're they're competitive hours. So, and if the first time I'd be like, first time, I felt like our community I've always felt it's been extremely inclusive, but the reason I bring it up is I'm curious to task you. What, what do you, what have been some of the challenges that you've had as you grow as you grew from a smaller company to a pretty dominant real estate company in your space?    I, you, you know, the metrics probably better than anybody, but just at the level you're at would have been some of the biggest challenges getting to the space that you're at or, or while you're here.    Scott (13m 2s): I think it's really defining who we are and who we want to be when you grow up as a business, I think is really the big challenge. I think we've done a really good job of, of building I think a great brand. I think we've got, I think we've genuinely helped. A lot of people get started and build their, their, their real estate portfolios and all that kind of stuff. And I think it's, it's, what's, what's next here. How do we more formalize this and professionalize it? Because I think what you get with bigger pockets is a choose your own adventure free for all deep dive into the world of real estate investing.    And that's great for a lot of people, but it's maybe not what some people want where they want more of like a here's what to do. You know, here are the options you pick one, here are the pros and cons and, and go with it. Right. And I think that there's a big market of people out there. Like what, what does the user of bigger pockets do? Right? What they do is they spend 500 hours, literally listening to podcasts, reading books, engaging in our forums and Facebook groups following that are our hosts and guests and bigger pockets on Instagram, joining, you know, joining the community.    And then, and then a moment comes when you want to buy real estate. Okay. I'm ready to put that investment of hundreds of hours of work into actually transacting on my first, your next property with that. And I think that's the challenge is, is that is not for everyone. There's a certain component of, of folks out there who like that and want to do that. But that, that in-depth dive, I think is not really for as many people. And, and so how do we kind of help those people invest in something more passive or succeed without having to commit to that huge learning curve there that I think it, I think it does take to be a successful, you know, owner operator of a real estate business.    Jesse (14m 59s): Yeah, for sure. It's almost like multiple funnels. Like, you know, where, where is it, like you said, choose your own adventure. Because I think with one of the things I've always admired about brand and with the podcast with Josh and Brandon and something I've tried to do with this podcast is, you know, somebody says a term and you don't necessarily know, like you said, host hacking early, and then you kind of described it where, you know, somebody says something that your listener base may not know that he would always be very quick to be like, okay, this, can you define that? And that's great.    But to a certain extent, once you get to a point where there's a level of sophistication that you're talking about, you know, I don't know, like a waterfall structures for limited partnerships, it'd be very challenging to have that podcast or that show with having to explain every single thing. So I can only imagine for bigger pockets that, you know, multiply that by X and in that, that complexity. Yeah.    Scott (15m 52s): Well that, yeah, that's, that's the big challenge, right? And so how do you, you know, on, if you come to the BiggerPockets website, I can, I can create an experience there based on your information that drives you towards those goals. But the challenge is that the website is like one tiny corner of the bigger pockets experience, right? Because it's no bigger or smaller and a lot of ways than our podcast, our YouTube channel, our Facebook groups, our Instagram, you know, other parts of the book publishing business, you know, it's, and so that's one corner of the, the BP universe.    And so what we've decided to do is to begin building what we call sub brands of bigger pockets. And so that's where we have bigger pockets, money, and real estate rookie. And we're hoping to launch one more over the course of 20, 21. I'm still debating a couple of things, but I think there's a place for more advanced investors. And what, what the current approach has done is the personal finance piece and the rookie piece allow our core real estate, the bigger pockets, real estate podcast, to go a little bit more advanced and move away from that to a certain extent and get into some of that bigger business mindset there.    So in our new investors, our rookies can really learn about, you know, what cashflow is and how to analyze the deal and the basics of that on the rookie podcast. And so that's kind of been the idea. We think there's still yet another level of advanced discussion that could be had in another corner. So that that's kind of the highest level framework. We see a world where if you come into bigger pockets, you join in there in the real estate rookie universe. And that's how you get your first deal. And you're surrounded by peers, but led by experts with that, with, with our, our hosts and guests and those types of types of things.    And then over time, you move into the business building phase or the, the investing phase on our core, bigger pockets platform. And then maybe at a future date, you move into a advanced situation. Maybe if you're a professional flipper or professional syndicator, or you're an accredited investor and invest passively, there's a place to learn how to, how to do that and that all y'all and make sure that you're, you're doing a good job with the money and all that kind of stuff.    Jesse (18m 2s): Yeah. That's a great point. You mentioned the, the book publishing side of it. I I've always wanted to ask, you know, one of the members of the team, how did that, how did that start? Because you, you you've kind of teamed up with, with subject matter experts. And the first time I ever saw that, I don't, I can't remember which, you know, which individual it was, but, you know, it was bigger pockets as, as part of, so is that first of all, how did that, how did that begin? And secondly, is the, is it self-published or published by bigger pockets?    Like the entity bigger pockets?    Scott (18m 34s): Well, mechanically we have a wholly owned LLC called BiggerPockets publishing. So it's published by BiggerPockets publishing. So how did the book business come about? I think it, before I got to bigger pockets, Jay Scott had written the book on flipping houses and the book on estimating rehab costs. And, you know, I think it would be fair to say that I really pushed the publishing side of the business as a big opportunity for us with this brand and published the book on investing in real estate with no money down next.    And everyone was debating what we should write next. And I was like, how about the book on rental property investing that one? Right. And so, so we have a, a long standing tradition now of launching books, largely with very obvious titles, I could call them SEO titles. That was not, I don't know if that was the intent at first, but we were just like the fuck that rental property investor let's look at flipping houses, the book and estimating rehab costs, book and investing in real estate with no one looking low money down, buy rehab, rent, refinance, repeat, you know, and so that's, that's kind of our fleet there that has kind of transformed over time.    We found that people love the books. We have a really high, and, you know, you can judge whether your product is doing well in the mind of the consumer by what's called an NPS score. So that's a net promoter score, and you can think of this more or less along the lines of a star rating on Amazon, five stars. People love it. Four stars. People are neutral three and below people are detractors. And our books really, really seem to have high ratings, high NPS scores among the, among our customers with that. Because I think that they're a low cost way to really digest a lot of information.    And I think our publishing team is super consistent about finding a, a true expert. Somebody, you know, we'll talk about Jay Scott here. I know you just, you just interviewed him right before me, I think earlier today, actually. Right. You know, Jay, I can't gush enough about Jay Jay's. Jay Scott joined BiggerPockets. I don't know, 15 years ago, 16 years ago, he posted 17, 18,000 times to our forums over the course of that period, he completed 150 fix and flip projects, right? Maybe the guy is playing some underhanded game with no way.    Jay Scott is a genuine human who's proved his reputation over and over and over again, who has debated the nuance of every point. That every problem that you can conceivably come up with across 17,000 online discussions, God only knows how many other discussions he's had with people on an individual basis. And the guy can write, and he runs a successful business and has a track record for it. What, how can you find a better author than that? And that I think is a reflection on Jay Scott's character and expertise, but also a reflection of the power of BiggerPockets is we can find that person who is not just, you know, a recent just came out of nowhere, kind of person who, who knows what's gonna happen.    We can find people who have really embraced our values and, you know, seen success and like to help people and understand the problems that folks. And they're the ones who are kind of writing a lot of our, our books and content. So that's been a really powerful draw for us. People who are interviewing people day in and day out in the podcast. You get to know the challenges of that.    Jesse (21m 45s): No know Scott, it might be the long con with, with Jay.    Scott (21m 48s): Yeah, that's right. Well, if he doesn't listen to this, sorry, Jay.    Jesse (21m 53s): It was funny. He, he mentioned because we said we were talking about BB cotton, Nashville. The, so I, you know, I thought I assumed it was the official first one. And he's like, nah, it was the officially was, I spoke at the one in 2012 when there was four of us. But yeah, it was like, I don't know where there was one back then. So, you know, one thing I like, I'm curious, I think anybody in our space is curious that there gets a point where you put out content and you're trying to figure out if there is a way to monetize this content. And you know, one thing for me, I've been really fortunate to be a contributor for bigger pockets on the commercial real estate side.    I learned so much just, you know, doing, even though I live in the space of commercial real estate, I learned so much by putting that information out there. And I'll tell you the first time you have, you know, 70,000 views on something, and you're looking at comments, you start sharpening your pencil really quickly and try to make sure you know, what you're talking about. So it's been really beneficial from that point of view. But when you start putting out content and you start trying to figure out where is the monetization, and I find with, you know, we're not selling a product, we're not selling a, you know, mugs where you see a lot of people in our space go the coaching route or go into the, you know, substantative relationship.    And then they invest eventually with, with the company, is that, are you trying to fire on all cylinders? Are you trying to, are you picking certain avenues? And just on the idea of coaching will, will bigger pockets grow to a point where it's kind of like a rich dad, poor dad, where you have a brand, you have somebody that has, you know, drunk the Kool-Aid and they are, you know, the, the evangelists for BiggerPockets.    Scott (23m 30s): You know, I think, I think you begin to lose competitive advantage if you move in that direction. Right? So here's how I think about, you know, because one of my jobs is to make money for the, for our shareholders, right? That's, that's a goal for every CEO, right? With here's how I think about it. The moment that we deliver value to our customer is the moment that they transact on an investment property that they believe and have good reason to believe is likely to advance their financial position.    And my, my belief is that our business, we are in the business of helping people dive in, but then ultimately take action in buying real estate and they need to do it healthfully. As part of that transaction, there are four stakeholders who make a lot of money. One is the real estate agent. The second is the lender. The third is the insurance provider and the fourth is the property manager. And these are the people, the core four that, you know, a lot of investors need, right?    I guess a contractor instead of the insurance broker, but I will get to contractors later. I believe that it is very hard to find an investor friendly real estate agent right now. W where do you go to look for that? And I think we've got a lot of agents who would love to do business with BiggerPockets investors and a lot of investors who do not want a referral from their mom or their brother or their best friend. They want an investor friendly real estate agent. So I think, you know, what, what we've built and we've already launched in 10 markets and things are off to the races with this is a marketplace that you can go to biggerpockets.com/agents and find really high quality investor friendly agents.    Many of whom have grown up through bigger pockets and post a million times on our forums. Many of whom we've, you know, there's, there's more folks that are entering the game and trying to prove themselves as investor-friendly agents. And we can match folks with that. And I think that's a really big opportunity for us, if we can help people connect, get ready. And when they're ready after the time that they spend to, to, to, to learn about this, actually move down the steps toward the transaction and connect with an agent and a lender and that kind of stuff.    I think there'll be plenty of opportunity to make money in that process. As long as we do a good job, making sure that you're actually getting a good professional with that    Jesse (25m 47s): On that note, because you know, my world is in commercial brokerage, those type of realtors or agents that you're connecting, are they in the commercial space and more in the single family multifamily, where do they, where do they lie on the, in that world?    Scott (26m 4s): Well, I think you bring up a good point, the bigger pockets we, you know, the, the market that we're most heavily concentrated, we have a forum and community that can talk about every conceivable aspect of real estate investing. But I would say the majority of our users are going to be folks that are buying single families, duplexes, triplexes, and quads, a minority 10% have a great discussion about buying larger properties with, with those types of things. But the majority of our, of our users are doing that.    And 90% of single family rental properties in this country are owned by investors with 10 or fewer units. And 50% are owned by investors with just one or two units. So that is really kind of like the user of bigger pockets. Now, the folks that you interact with and you have on your podcast completely different profile than the average investor, right. But the, the typical person is, is fitting the description that I'm I'm describing here. The guy who likes to talk about real estate all day long is going to have a different profile than that, right. Is that that's where the voltage is more prominent anyways.    So what were you asking about?    Jesse (27m 12s): Basically, it sounds like that is the space it's it's the, the singles to quads is where you're connecting those types of agents where we're now for me, the reason I asked that is because when I was younger or sorry, earlier in my career, when I was in single family or student rental, it was really challenging finding the, see the link between residential broker commercial broker, and then in the middle there there's this investor centric broker that will do deals like you're discussing.    Scott (27m 41s): Yes. And we think that's the opportunity for us to in the next, you know, year or so to really solve a lot of problems. I would love to also do a marketplace for the more serious commercial brokers who are brokering apartment complexes. But I think we got to bite off one thing at a time as a business and, and concentrate our focus on the biggest challenge facing the majority of our users, which I think is transacting on single family, duplex, triplex quadplex long-term rental investments.    And one of the biggest things we can do to help them with that is help them find an investor friendly agent instead of an agent where they're going to have to figure out and drive all that process.    Jesse (28m 19s): Yeah. Well, I mean, you would have the data there. So I mean, if that, if that is the majority of, of the individuals, that just, that makes sense. And I think like from, I think there's a misnomer, or there's just a misunderstanding of, it's not the commercial brokers, aren't, don't want to do deals with, with a variety of different people. It's it's that ultimately, without getting into the granularity of it, it's the, the fee split or the, the commission split structure is just it's, it's, it's in such a way that doing deals less than 5 million, 3 million, it just, it becomes something where it's, you can't wait.    It literally is a waste of time that you can't spend your time doing that. And that's why they're, you know, there is a great place. I know in most major markets between 1 million and $5 million deals, that is a really great spot that I think a lot of agents aren't capturing and are starting to make that their niche of, of what they focus in.    Scott (29m 14s): And I'll bring you down just one more level from there, a single family rental home costs the same as a single family home, right. More or less than that. But, but the, the, the realtors and the agents, the local agents who are helping investors do that, do not understand things like the 1% rule or a cash and cash return, or the fact that, Hey, I care if it's a good school district, but that's like a fourth or fifth or seventh bullet point for me after the rent to price ratio that this property can command the longterm.    Other long-term factors around appreciation, whether it has amenities that are going to be that the tenants are going to like whether I can convert that office into another bedroom, those types of things. That is the level. Those are the, the, the more, I guess, accessible things that we're, we're, we're building, we're building a marketplace for investors to meet agents who can help them transact on residential real estate. 1, 2, 3, and four unit properties, probably in most cases, less than a million dollars, but in some cases they'll get, they'll get to that, that value    Jesse (30m 21s): Right on, well, we can talk in new Orleans, we can talk about some ideas to get those commercial and monetize those commercial brokers. I think from that point of view, it's really going to be on the listing side. Everybody has a buyer listings are where it's at. I want to be respectful of your, of your time here. I'm really curious to know about how you spun off the original podcast to the money podcasts. I I've, I've listened only admittedly to a few episodes, but it seems like there was a pivot to basically get the ideas of that were already ingrained in the initial podcast, financial freedom, money, personal finance, and move it in that direction.    Can you talk a little bit about how that process took place?    Scott (31m 2s): Yeah, sure. So, so the mission of bigger pockets and emission I share is how you enable financial freedom for as many people as possible as early in life as possible, because that is how you unlock human potential. And my belief is that there's a lot of people who want to invest in real estate, but just don't have a financial position capable of responsibly sustaining real estate investment. And this can be anybody from having debt and needing to rebuild their position to we've had millionaires on the podcast who have no wealth outside of their primary residence and their retirement accounts, $10,000 in cash and nothing else.    And they're not in position to invest either. And so the point of the money show is to help folks move toward financial freedom and a financial position, a strategy with their money that allows them to make on a repeated basis investments in assets like real estate and other businesses on a regular basis with that. So it's a, it's a very different bent on personal finance with that. And we've talked, we talked a lot of people, we have two major SEG well, so that's the reason for the show is to, is to really bring in the personal finance aspect of this and say, here's how real estate investors build a position capable of sustaining real estate investment investing and how they move toward financial freedom with that as part of their portfolio.    Jesse (32m 21s): Yeah, it's a, you mentioned it earlier. It seems like there is that there is that real estate avatar that you do enough of these podcasts where you're listening to, you're listening to a lot of the same stuff. You're reading books like crazy. You're, you're digesting as much information as you can, but you start seeing the same, even on YouTube, you start seeing the same pop up. And then you're like, you know, I didn't expect BiggerPockets have this guest on. I saw him in some totally different, you know, field or, or podcasts, but it seems like there is that a specific individual that, you know, multiple Venn diagrams, I think we all share.    Scott (32m 55s): Yeah. I mean, like right now, bigger pockets is a real estate investing platform, right? That's our, that's our core focus, but in 20 years, maybe that begins to shift gradually over time because the goal is financial freedom right now is financial freedom through real estate. But how do you just make that more accessible to more people? Cause that's, that's how you unlock. Like I said, human potential in ways that you can't predict those people who become millionaires in their thirties or forties, go on to start businesses, change the world, all that kind of stuff. And real estate is the nominal tool for a lot of people, but especially people making between 50 and $200,000 a year, when you make less than that, you can't really get to the starting point in real estate responsible.    You're going to take, you're going to take some big risks, you know, likely unless you, unless you're a really good saver for example, and you can make much more than that. You're probably not going to put in the 500 hours that I articulated before, because you'd be better spent just earning that money and dumping it into something more passive for like, you know, a syndication or something rather than buying the, the, the duplex. So you've got that sweet spot, but there's a whole bunch of opportunities for lots of billions of folks in that category who don't want to do real estate and other folks out there who want to achieve financial freedom through other means.    Jesse (34m 7s): Yeah, no, that's a really good point. The a 50 to 200 interesting to think about it that way for the future here, we're going to come up to a few questions. We ask every guest, but before we do Scott 20 21, 20 22, I think we talked a little bit before the show. It's been a insane last 18 months, it's it hasn't been easy for a lot of individuals, a lot of companies from a positive note, what do you see for opportunities down the line? You know, what is 20 21, 20 22 look like for yourself and the team?    Scott (34m 41s): Oh, for myself and the team. I think we're going to, I think we're going to be able to really create a world-class network of investor-friendly real estate agents, and maybe also investor-friendly lenders who understand the different types of loan products that you need for a duplex triplex or single family rental investment, those types of folks. I think we'll be able to build that those marketplaces. I think we are going to, I try to launch another podcast perhaps in that syndication space.    I want to let the team beat me up on that. We're not sure if we're actually going to do that quite yet, but that's, that's something that we're, we're noodling on. We have our conference coming up October and we've got a couple of good books lined up that we'll be releasing in the next 12 months as well. So I think we've got a lot of exciting stuff in the pipeline for bigger pockets over the next year. Awesome    Jesse (35m 32s): Man. Excited for it. All right. I got four for ya. Rapid fire. If, if you're ready to I'll, I'll sell them over. Let's do it. All right. Scott, first question, something that you know now in your career with bigger pockets that you wish you knew when you started out there,    Scott (35m 50s): You know, I, I'm going to get, answer your question very generally. I think there's a ton of mental models that a CEO needs to have around what good looks like looks like, especially from senior executives, whether that's finance, technology, marketing, HR, those types of things. And, you know, I don't know if there's a way I could've gone back and given them to myself, but developing those as the core responsibility of a CEO. And I think that's been the biggest challenge for me is understanding what are the essential outputs? How do I articulate them? How do I performance manage against those    Jesse (36m 21s): On that point of development? Again, it's, it's great to have you in this seat because it's something I asked a lot of people, and I think you see it from a, from a closer point of view, your view on mentorship for younger people that are getting into our industry or any industry for that matter. What would you say on that point? And maybe just with the added piece of what to watch out for what to be careful for, because I mean, you, you see it all on the, on the forum as    Scott (36m 50s): A hiring manager, as a men, as looking for a minute. Sure.    Jesse (36m 53s): I think for people in a real estate, trying to get in to the industry, your view on mentorship and, and you know, what will you would recommend or, or w what's been beneficial?    Scott (37m 3s): I think the informal mentorship is a really good approach. Like you're not looking if you're paying a lot of money for the mentorship, you better know what good looks like. And you know, here, here's a good framework. If, if you, you know, that you're probably getting on the right track to and begin investing, when you can meet with 10 investors who all outwardly appear successful and say, these two are really sharp. These guys are, are four formulaic, and these two are successful. They're really gonna they're, they're, they're really doing something crazy here. I don't understand it, or they're not doing it.    It doesn't make any sense or they don't seem smart to me. So I think when you can begin meeting with people that outwardly see more advanced than you, and kind of pick out the nuance in their approach, you're probably onto something there. And that might help you begin to spot that mentor. If you do want to engage in something more formal. Awesome.    Jesse (37m 53s): What is one resource? It can be a book podcasts that you are listening to right now that you would recommend to listeners. And I'll just put the caveat out also with this one, I'll give you one from BiggerPockets and then a, and then one outside of your space.    Scott (38m 9s): Yeah. I always, by default have the bigger pockets things. I almost never reference them. Cause I feel like that'd be a shameless plug. No, I I'm listening to good strategy, bad strategy right now. And I think that's a fantastic book. I I'm listening. I'm halfway through it and I can't remember the author's name, but    Jesse (38m 25s): We'll put it in the show notes. Good strategy. Bad strategy.    Scott (38m 29s): Yep. Richard Rumelt. Yeah.    Jesse (38m 34s): All right. Well, wasn't Scott. It's been a, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you for, for spending the time here for those out there. I say this all the time. Everything's a Google search away, but for those that want to reach out, connect, be part of this community, or just learn more, where can, where can they go?    Scott (38m 52s): You can find me on BiggerPockets. You can just search in the nav bar there. And my name will come up or you can email me@scottatbiggerpockets.com. You can find me on Instagram at, at Scott underscore    Speaker 2 (39m 2s): Trench. My guest    Jesse (39m 4s): Today has been Scott trench. Scott, thanks for being part of working capital.    Speaker 2 (39m 9s): Thank you for having me.     Jesse (39m 17s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you like the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care. 

Chris Prefontaine is a three times Best Selling Author of Real Estate on Your Terms, The New Rules of Real Estate Investing, and Moneeka Sawyer's Real Estate Investing for Women. He's also the Founder and CEO of SmartRealEstateCoach.com and host of the Smart Real Estate Coach Podcast. In this episode we talked about: How Chris got into Real Estate The “On Terms” investment strategy Non-bank financing Owner financing Principal only payments Family run businesses Importance of value and mission statements The value of discipline The power of self accountability The impact of Great Recession on Real Estate profitability Searching for Deals Distribution of Team Roles Opportunities in 2021 Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://smartrealestatecoach.com Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. My name is Jesse Fragale and my special guest today is Chris Prefontaine. Chris is a three-time bestselling author of real estate on your terms, the new rules of real estate investing and when Nika Sawyer is real estate investing for women, he's also the founder and CEO of smart real estate coach.com and the host of smart real estate coach podcast.    Chris, how's it going?    Chris (47s): I am doing awesome. Thanks Jesse. Thanks for having me on.    Jesse (50s): Yeah, my pleasure. Like I was saying before the show, we're very happy to have you on, I did get a copy of your book. I believe the one I received was new rules of real estate investing. I brought that into, into the brokerage into the office. So a lot of good stuff in there. I found it really interesting just because it took a little bit of a different approach as it was kind of a best or greatest hits of different people and different experts giving their view. So hopefully we can get into that. How's everything been. I mean, we're in a bit of a unique world right now.    How have you, how have you been fairing over the last, the last year or so?    Chris (1m 27s): Yeah, we're super busy. I hate to, I hesitate all the time to say that, cause I know some people get hurt, but literally from April 1st, 2020, we have crank and it got a little tight with the market being so crazy these last few months, but we're literally, as of this morning, seeing the people commenting and the deals going up through the roof again all across north America. So that's kinda neat. We built this to kind of hit all markets and it's doing well with it, you know, it's been tested.    Jesse (1m 54s): Yeah, for sure. So for listeners, a little bit of a background, your experience ranges back into the nineties for those, you know, that it's the first time hearing your name, hearing you speak. Maybe you could talk a little bit about your history and how you got into real estate. Obviously, you know, you've seen more cycles than a, well, I'd say a few of the guests that we have on more than I wanted to probably yeah. So high    Chris (2m 20s): Level, right? Cause it would be 30 years. It'd be here too long, but I, I journeyed into real estate doing some building. I never was a builder, had a partner who ran the field. I ran inside. We did everything on terms back then without knowing it without calling it terms, I was in my twenties. So we, we found lots. We pre-market them. We sold a finished package and everybody could pay it a day and it was pretty cool. I then bought a Realty executives, franchise, mid nineties, sold that to Coldwell banker, ultimately in 2000. And then I started coaching people throughout U S and Canada, heavy Canada at the time, coincidentally up in Toronto, but 48 clients or so up there that while that was going on, I started doing some of my own investments from 2000 up to the crash.    And then that brought us to today in the sense that the crash has beat us up. I mean that I was on personally on signature in the U S on loans, 23 properties or so. So in the values drop where they come in, they're coming to me, unfortunately. So that caused us though, Jesse to rewrite the rules. So to speak, not to use the book, no pun intended there, but causes us to recreate what we're doing. Re-engineer what we're doing. And that is now we buy everything on a terms. We do not use banks. We don't sign personally. We very rarely if ever used that capital and that way I can go to sleep at night, knowing that we're not at risk, if we were a pre crash, you know?    So we've gone through all those storms that you alluded to and rebuild this model to only buy on terms.    Jesse (3m 43s): So before we get into that, the clear follow up question is would, is on terms. But before we do in the nineties and subsequent to that, w w was the wheelhouse for you in real estate? What, was there something that, that, you know, gave you the bug of, of wanting to get into real estate, as opposed to, you know, other areas,    Chris (4m 4s): You know, the bug so to speak was when I was younger, my dad was not in real estate. He would, he had a welding business, but he had branches. And as he would expand, he personally would build the building and lease it back to the business. And I was young and I go, whoa, you're the same person. How does it, like, how do you do that? So that's where I started to learn real estate. And it was kind of cool. He always said that up until a few years ago. So then he would find land tracks of land engineer, do the engineering and flip them. So he just always tinkered. And I had, I really was around that environment a lot. And then, so as soon as he sold the company back in 91, I think he sold his company where I was working.    I went into real estate. That's when I started building    Jesse (4m 41s): Right on. Awesome. So let's move on to that for, for listeners. W w you know, you hear in the industry, I mean, not so long ago, the first time I heard that on terms, you know, you alluded to a little bit about getting non-conventional financing. Why don't you give listeners just kind of an understanding of what that means?    Chris (5m 1s): Yeah. So for us terms means a better word that people would recognize as creative real estate, right? So terms for us means three things. We buy, lease, purchase, owner financing, or subject to existing financing, lease purchase being, in my opinion, the simplest entry, if you're new, we're looking to expand what you're doing, because you're not taking title. Your risk is definitely minimal. You are in our agreements. Anyway, you are putting up $10 for at least prejudice. All our properties.    We could show about 80 million with our students in our own, and there's not more than a few thousand spent total on all the 80 million control, because a lot of us that own these purchase on a freelancing niche is a little bit different niche. We drill down deeper than just regular on a pricing. We look Jessie for a free and clear properties. So owners that are free and clear, they're in a good spot. Most of them not even in the market and they want longer term, they want the, the, the, the estate planning or the tax planning to be longer term my building. I'm not in it today, but my building right, five minutes from my house was bought from an investor who had this building for 120 years, 18 years, it was free and clear.    And he sold to me on owner financing. You know, I don't care where you are. If you go for a mixed use building loan right now, it's grueling underwriting. I didn't do any of that. It was a handshake quick PNS closing in 30 days done. So just,    Jesse (6m 23s): Just to recap there, lease purchase owner financing, and what was the third one subject    Chris (6m 28s): To existing finance. So sub two for slang, sub two. So that means I buy your house for those listening and you owe some money on it, but I'm buying it. And the loan is staying in your name, even though deeds transferring. And so, again, I own the house. I don't have a lease purchase on it. I own it. And I'd appreciate it. And I get all the owner benefits, but the loan stays in your name until someday I cash it out.    Jesse (6m 49s): Interesting. I, you know, I've, I've heard, I've heard this recently called something different, but that, so in the, in, so it's not, it's outright ownership. It's not a lien on the house. It's you actually owning and being like you said, being able to depreciate.    Chris (7m 2s): Yeah, no, definitely own it. It, you know, disclosure do, do people who have a ton of equity typically, are they okay with entering into that with their name and alone? No. Do do sellers who don't know you that well, gladly jump into that environment. No, not all of them. Now, many of them will enter a lease purchase. We'll build up the trust will build up the credibility and we'll transfer that to a sub to later that happens a lot or someone needs immediate debt relief, and frankly, they don't care.    They want it done. They'll do sub two.    Jesse (7m 35s): Yeah. I could see that. I mean, the logical movement from owner financing where, you know, sometimes you have two, three year debt and then having a track record and building up, and then being able to push the relationship further, the lease purchase th this, this piece here is this, would this be similar to an assignment or a wholesale or, or is this something different?    Chris (7m 57s): Good question. So the way at least purchase works and you can circle back and say, yup, bingo or no, I didn't hit it. So all these purchases like this, let's say your house, we agree it's worth about 300 grand. You owe about two 50. My lease purchase says, I'm going to start making your underlying debt payment on your behalf, but everything stayed in your name. Once I find my buyer, we put tenant buyers in these homes rent down. So once I find my buyer, I got, and I stopped making payments on your property with the promise that on or before the end of the term, I'm going to pay off your loan, which is less.    Now that's my benefit. And I'm going to give you a 50 grand equity that we agreed. You had some projecting that as long as you can wait for it. So what's the difference between that and maybe an assignment or a wholesale. We get paid three ways on all our deals. So we trade rocked out in the United States. So we get, we get payments upfront. We get payments over time. We get payments when we sell versus one payday. So, which I did for years, it's lucrative. But I don't know if that answered your question. Yeah.    Jesse (8m 52s): I think it did. In terms of, you know, you hear so many different terms in real estate and really trying to drill down on what exactly it is. And that could go from, you know, everything changes from country to country, state, to state province, the province. And, you know, there might be just a wrinkle. That's a little bit different. You mentioned patented or certain trademarks. How did you go about that process? Having that trademark? Are you talking about the, just the term itself?    Chris (9m 15s): Yeah. Three paydays. So we created that after we re-engineer things after the crash to get paid three times, I just started saying, wait a minute. It's like, I'm on a treadmill. Real estate treated me really good, but it's like, you're on a treadmill. Every January, you start over, right. If you're doing building or wholesaling or you're real tight, did that for years. So this way we get paid three times and yeah, we had attorneys file in the United States, took awhile for three pay days. We have all the things like our logo and things that in the company, but three paydays was an important one because no, one's had it.    Jesse (9m 43s): Yeah. It's almost like you want that recurring revenue in the real estate version of that. Yep, absolutely. So for, for yourself, Chris, when, at what point did you make the move or maybe it was at the beginning, but if not, what point did you make the move from going into real estate? Full-time that, that this was your full-time gig?    Chris (10m 3s): I started tinkering with it around, well, I've always tinkered with it, but late eighties, I started tinkering with it on the side, so to speak like a lot of people do. And then when my father sold his company, 91, the company lasted as a corporate structure. I was used to entrepreneurial mindset. I lasted about maybe three weeks before they fired me. And my kids were probably a two and three at the time. So that, that, you know, you get a severance practice for four weeks and then you're out. So I had to kind of move fast. Luckily I had a couple deals going and then we just ramped it up right    Jesse (10m 34s): On. So for, for the comparison, you know, we talk a lot on this show about real estate, flipping wholesaling, apartment buildings, commercial real estate is the space that I live in. You know, what's, what's the difference, you know, what's the value add here, or what's the, the value proposition or difference with this type of investing?    Chris (10m 54s): Well, first I'll say, cause I have, I have all of those niches that you just said on my podcast, good friends. So I'm not, I'm not against any niche. They're all wonderful. And they're meant for some, all the lessons are going to attach to what they want, in my opinion, why I gravitate towards this and stay with this after all the things I've done is the, the minimal risk. I'll never say none, but the minimal risk because I'm not going on any loans. That's the Milan number two from going to get paid. Why not create three pays per one deal? It's real simple. So if I do a deal today and it's, even if it's a hundred thousand all day, I'm just using that number.    It's over. If it's a build or flip or wholesale, if I do a deal today, and it's three pay days, I've got somewhere around 75 is our average, but 75 to 250 grand paying me over the next three years, next deal next three or four years or five years or 10 years. So you have this spreadsheet. Eventually we have all this income coming in. You can take six months off if you want predictably, and you can see where to, once you track all this. So the three payday and the low risk is the, is the main reason. The third is it was built. Jesse, if you remember my steroid coming out of the crash, it was built not just to kind of weather the storms and then COVID slapped us.    And then we went, okay. Work, not only at work, but we thrive. So it's a great tool for up down and flat markets really is. So    Jesse (12m 7s): What was it about the, the crash or the great recession that, that really amplified or put a spotlight on how lucrative or beneficial this type of investing can be?    Chris (12m 20s): It wasn't, it was from a defense mode. I wish I could tell you that I brilliantly thought of this thing was going to be great after, but I didn't. I, what I said was all right, I just had four years, it took from oh eight til 12. I had four years of just garbage, you know, loans being called for colleges workouts the whole bit. That was, that was stressful. So it was more, what can I do that? Doesn't go that way ever again. It wasn't, oh, I got this brilliant light bulb then organically. It evolved to the three paydays and to building what we, what we built today to be doing deals all over the country.    Jesse (12m 52s): So Chris, when, when you put these deals together, if from a high level, what type of structure do you typically use? You've talked a little bit about that. You know, you have different people on your podcast, you hear corporate structure, LLCs partnerships. W what would you use for this?    Chris (13m 9s): Ah, good question. So in the lease purchase is pretty simple, Jesse, because you're not taking title, nothing's even going to show up on record. So we just had that and we started in an LLC. It's your comfort level? It's like my attorneys to say, when the basket tips over, are you comfortable with what's in it? Right? So we would do a 10 or 12 deals in one LLC on the sub two deals. It gets a little bit more, I won't say complex. It gets a little more detailed. We take it in a land trust. A company is the beneficiary. So it's a little bit more anonymous and on the, on a Francine deal, same thing, LLC.    Jesse (13m 43s): Got it. One of the biggest things that we hear, and I'm sure you've heard it on your podcast, especially at this point in the market, even with, with the, you know, the last 18 months is just the ability to find deals or inability to find deals. How do you approach that? What's the, what's the method for yourself when you're looking at it through the context of terms.    Chris (14m 5s): I agree with you, first of all, wholeheartedly it's we are talking to more sellers to get a deal. Now there's no question about it. So I always tell my students, like literally today, we're talking about this, a fish in a different pond. So I love fishing in the pond of these free and clear properties, for example, because usually they're not dying to sell that are harder to sell. They don't want to pay a relative they're free and clear. They just have, I'll call it an ego. It's a healthy one, but it's usually I want this price. I don't care what's going on. We don't care about price if I, if we get the term.    So they love that because you're satisfying their price issue. So that's one point deficient. The second one is unfortunately now, just so you know, this, there's a lot of people that need help right now. They're kind of like below the radar, they got beat up a little bit with COVID or they had these forbearance agreements that are now coming an end or stressing about. So we're finding a lot of those finding us where we've, where we've set up our name properly in these markets. Those are two great areas to fishing because they want you, they, they want a guy and they want different, do I fight for MLS properties or properties that are, or else is going to have to know?    It's just to your point, too competitive right now.    Jesse (15m 10s): Yeah. And what I found, you know, when you described this type of investing and even in your book, what I think just comes to mind, right. Or right or wrong is I always think of more push marketing or sorry, pull marketing rather than push marketing. I feel like you put, you go out there and you put yourself, you put your name out there and have people come to you at a certain point, but it is first of all, is that, is that the case for what you do and has that evolved since you, since you started,    Chris (15m 39s): That's a great observation. So what happens is typically for us is we'll start a new student. I just had two brand new ones on today, and I'll have them doing what you just referred to as push, because they've got to start cultivating something. And as they rise in the ranks, I'll say for lack of a better expression, we teach them how to become what we call the authority so that yes, now you get more of a pull. You're establishing yourself more and more. You're layering in all this authority stuff, whether it's a book or a podcast or a blog or whatever it might be. So you are the local expert. So when these national companies come in, they're in every market we're in by the I buyers, are we calling all these other companies?    They don't really affect us because we're the local expert once we've got established. So the answer is, it's both it just transitions to more pull a little bit later on in the career. And it usually takes a good couple of years.    Jesse (16m 27s): And from a, a, you draw out a well-oiled machine now, just from a, a cost perspective, you know, does the marketing take up a large, you know, percentage of, of what you do in terms of costs? You know, after a while, I think people that are in your space seem to seem to have a knack for what they're doing. Do you guys put a lot of resources and effort into the marketing?    Chris (16m 49s): We don't mailing wise. I know like the wholesalers that I know, oh gosh. How was that? How was that a group of private group wants, and someone was spending 10, 20, 30 grand a month. Yeah. We spend to do ideals that they create three paydays. And that average us a low of 45,000, a high of two 50 per deal. All three we're spending overhead wise about a grand a month. Our students were spending more now. So what's the ramp up the ramp up would be more, I'd rather put a VA on a virtual assistant, calling more houses than I would put mailing pieces of the door only because I know, I know the metrics now, you know, he was doing terms 30 years in the biz.    I know the metrics. And then a little bit more predictable, in my opinion, in number two, I don't want a new student. It's a bummer. When you have to say to a new student, Hey, you know, you have a budget of five or 10 grand a month. So we don't do heavy marketing. Believe it or not. If we do it's in the hundreds per month, not thousands of tens of thousands.    Jesse (17m 41s): Have you found that this type of approach has, has had a, a state or two that it's something that really works and is, is really conducive to in other states not so much. And what's, if so, w what, what are those?    Chris (17m 60s): Okay. And this is a good question. You're hitting some good high points that I usually don't get. So this is awesome. It's usually not the state. It's usually, I don't care if we're in a flat or down or up market. It's usually going a little bit on the outskirts of, of kind of like, let's say, New York city, would you be doing a lot of terms deals right in the city? I'd rather you go out a little bit, cause you're gonna have a little, it's gonna be a little hectic. I want to go into the outskirts. I want to go where even in a hot market, you have some expired listings in the MLS that, you know, I want to go out a little bit to get out of the frenzy. That's all.    Jesse (18m 31s): Okay. And w w what's the, what's the rationale there? It's just that there's, there's more volume. There's, there's more of what you're looking for there. As, in terms of a,    Chris (18m 40s): You need our guidance more, you know, right now everything's selling so quickly. So like you said, we got a fish in different ponds, but one of those ways to fish differently is just go out a little bit from the frenzy. Now, keep in mind. Remember I said, one of my favorites is free and clear. Yeah. Well, a third of the property in the United States, roughly a third are free and cliff really that's all the, all the country. So how about, how about just talk to the free and clear people. They want to talk to you. They're awesome to deal with. They don't need money, quote unquote. And they would've pulled it out already. Right? So the fun to deal with,    Jesse (19m 9s): That's fascinating. Three out of four, three to four properties that are owned in the states are free and clear.    Chris (19m 16s): One, one third, one third are free and clear. Third. Yeah.    Jesse (19m 20s): Yeah. You haven't even 33%. That's pretty, that's pretty amazing. Now for, for your process to find these, whether the, you know, is it secretary of state, is it a land registry? Where do you go to find the properties that you know, are, have a mortgage paid off?    Chris (19m 35s): We have two different softwares we use that are free in our resource center, but the one that does the free and clear very well is prop stream. Let me do a great job. And then freedom soft is, is where we pull a lot of, out of the less. It's crazy. Now you can, you know, I can only set to the sky today to show. You said, you could find out, you can go geographically and go. I want everybody in this zip code that has a mortgage of this much percentage. And you know, where's pink socks. I mean, you can buy any data now. It's crazy.    Jesse (20m 3s): All right, one sec, let me make a note of pink socks here. You know, what it is, it is pretty amazing how the, I think it's a good thing. A lot of this information has been democratized, just my, you know, myself being a broker. I've never been of the mind that having this stuff unavailable to the public was, or having it just available to us with some sort of, you know, competitive advantage. I feel like if people want to get information and, and can use it properly, I mean, if it really came down to access, we would all be millionaires and ripped because, you know, w where was Google 30 years ago.    So take us to the book. I, I, like I said, in the beginning, it's, it's a very interesting book in the sense that it's, it's kind of a amalgamation of different viewpoints experts. And for those that, that want a link, we can definitely put one in the show notes, but yeah, take us back to this process. Every person I've talked to that has, has written a book. I know it's a long and challenging process. How did that go for you?    Chris (21m 1s): Okay. So here, here's how it went. And here's why, so the first book we did, and then we we've since revised it, and it's a bestseller it's called real estate on your terms. And it was very us like very niche. How do you do what we just talked about? You and I, and so some people on my show said, well, that's great, but you seem bias. I said, I'm biased because that's what I do now, but I'm not so naive to think everybody has to do that. So then we said, all right, so let's take all the podcasts interviews that we have a majority of at the time, and let's take the 24 or so that we love the most that we think that can be the most broad.    And let's have everybody do a chapter. And so that people could look at us and say, it's free info. We're going to go look at the 24 different experts in this book, we did the new rules of real estate. And then we get to pick where we want to go. And if it's termed great, if it's tax liens, great, whatever you want to do, I just want it to be more out there of prosperity mindset versus no, this is the only way you do it, even though clearly I believe that because I'm in it, but that, that everybody has their fit, right. Here's a quick formula. I say, when you read the book, do this say, okay, what niche can I get behind?    Like what, what do I get rubbed about too? Can I find someone in that niche that already did what I want to do with success? Leaves, clues. There's no reason for you to reinvent it, right? I didn't create terms. It was available in the 18 hundreds. And then third then put blinders on for 36 months. If you do that, you'll have a great experience at any niche. So I wanted to expose them all. If that makes sense. Long answer to a good question.    Jesse (22m 25s): No, it does make sense in terms of how you want about picking your, your list there. What was it, what was that process    Chris (22m 32s): Like? I wanted similar to my show recently, I'm really picky with this. Now. I wanted people that have been through market cycles and, or life events, both a great, so example for me, my son had a head injury and no three doctors told my wife and I had never walked talk or eat again. He's running the business with me then nine 11, and then COVID, and then the different market. Okay. So this some crap thing, right. That people can learn from while same in this book. If you look in there that one of the, the guy that does tax lanes, I think he's like 82 years old and still doing it.    Well, you can learn a crap load from him. Like I just wanted to experience versus brand brand new. And it's not that, that bad. My son's been, my son-in-law has been at this for seven years. He knew do hundreds of deals now, but, you know, he learned from some great mentors, but, but by and large, I wanted a lot of experience. That's all. Yeah.    Jesse (23m 18s): I, I live really like that format. I think it's, hopefully I don't butcher this, but I think it's the Titans of real estate. A book I read recently that was similar in layout. You know, it was real estate, but you would have on one side of developer, another side, a investor in industrial and other side office. So it was really good to get every perspective. And like you said, it's, I mean, it's not gonna appeal to everybody. You're gonna be biased in certain ways. There were some chapters where halfway through, I'm like, yeah, you know what? Good, nice to know. Not really, not really my cup of tea. You talk a little bit, or you, you talked a little bit about your son there.    One thing I thought was really cool, just like when we got Jake and Gino on a very family-oriented, I'm the same way your team, you picked some of, some of the people closest to you. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the team that you have in what you're doing and how that's, how that's impacted you and, and just day-to-day life. Yeah. And by the    Chris (24m 9s): Way, I hung out with them too. I think I was on their show on vice versa, that fun Jacobs, you know, they're good guys. You know what? It's somewhat of the answer I gave you that when I said I didn't brainchild that the niche and kind of organically happen, what happened to this business? And the family was, Nick has always been around me. He witnessed a lot of the stuff I went through in oh eight. We literally share an office. That's my son. So when I get busy and 14 ish, I think it was, he started as a broker at the same office as me. I'd go, Hey, I can help you on the buyer side, I get it. I not do this online. And they said, great. We started slow.    He then went full time. And then my son-in-law and my daughter, Kayla were in the bartending and personal training business in this area. That's big, it's a tourist area. And money was good lifestyle crappy. So they said in 15, is there any room for us to come in? I said, you have game for like incentive. We do deals. We make, we don't, we don't, you don't get paid if you're good for that. So they came in, everyone kind of organically took what they like, Nick does buyers still, Zach loves doing what I didn't duplicate me. Kayla ran the office. She's busy with the kids now, but the point is, they all organically, when it wasn't like I had this massive plan kid said, Hey, let's hand fuck these people.    Right. So it's good. That way it's helped because everyone does what they really like to do in their own zone. That's how it started. And now I've got a team of like 12 or 14 people.    Jesse (25m 23s): Yeah, that's great. What are you? You know, what are the opportunities at this point? And we're in 2021 or halfway through the year, it's been a tumultuous 12 to 18 months for a lot of people. But I think every person that's been on this show has talked about opportunities. We're where are you setting your sights on right now?    Chris (25m 42s): Hey, this is what I've been screaming about. And to this day, I think tomorrow night, I'm talking about it with a group. And that is, I think, as the market slowly starts to turn again. And who knows when, if you and I knew we wouldn't run the show together, it would be on a beach somewhere. But when it does, I think in the next nine to 12 months, anyone in the terms, niche or Marietta reasons for another show, and it's the opportunity to get probably a decade worth of income. And the reason I'm saying that is this. I look back to like 13 or 14.    Some of those deals are now cashing out, literally like this month. And I can equate all of the next six weeks, probably half a million to a million more in cash outs for our personal team, not the students all coming from a few years ago. Well, the, the market right now is screaming for deals outside of the conventional bank. My opinion, the amount of deals being done in the us outside of banks used to be like one or 2% in the nineties. It's I don't know the percent now, Jesse, but it's big. It's like in the teens, that's a lot of deals and need the guidance and they, they there's tied a lot of the bank crap going on.    And so I think there's a big opportunity that in our niche, that's why I'm putting full gas pedal down, starting April 20. We just not doubling down versus pulling back.    Jesse (26m 56s): Yeah, I wish there was, there was more re like there are tons of resources out there for real estate, but ones that you can trust because, you know, we're in this space I've been investing for, for quite a number of years. You have been, I have the benefit of being in brokerage. So a lot of these contracts and these things that you do outside of the normal normal realm of financing, or you know, who you're dealing with in real estate, or just something that we're surrounded by. And I think people, you know, that say the PR the private or exempt market for instance, is just one example.    I think people generally speaking are afraid to, to deal with that because it is something that looks like the gray market, something that they don't normally do every day. So that's a good point. I think that that opportunity is, is something that we're going to see more and more of and, you know, leading, leading into my next question with that in mind is you teaching or coaching you mentioned is, is that part of what you're trying to do right now is kind of explain or demystify this type of investing to others.    Chris (27m 58s): Yeah. You said it right. We literally our mission, we have a mission called the kingdom town mission. Our mission is to dominate the, the education field and real estate by helping associates. That's what we deal with. That's what we do deals with. We call them associates by helping them complete 500 deals by 2022, and then we'll rewrite that. But the reason I shared that relative to exactly what you said is so far, we've helped about 1400 families between the deal with the buyer and seller and our students do the deal outside of a bank, right?    It's a lot of families. So then you start affecting them generationally that disruptive market a bit. So we're out on a mission to do that. I know it's a long road. There's only a small percent of younger 20 of these deals that are being done and where we're a tiny fraction of that. But that's where we're going with that because lives are being changed because of it. And you said something about trust. The big thing right now is like, I call it bridging the gap from the time someone does a real estate seminar or course, but when they actually do a deal, some people don't get out of it. I get calls weekly saying I never did a deal.    I follow so-and-so. It's crazy. So, so we don't focus on selling a course. We focus on doing these deals and affecting lives. It's pretty cool. And it's rewarding as heck.    Jesse (29m 9s): Yeah. I, you touched on something great there. And I think there is, I mean, there's oftentimes a analysis paralysis and you have people that listen to podcasts and read books, and it's one thing to, that's all great stuff, but a certain point you got to take action. You don't want to be that guy or gal that three years, you know, you're hearing the same podcast. You're hearing the same people, but you've never actually taken action.    Chris (29m 30s): Yup. So    Jesse (29m 32s): For, I do have just a side question here. You were, again, like I said, you were fortunate to send me, send me the book, wicked smart is I have something to do, set it. Well, I was going to say, so for listeners, I got a shirt and a book, and I was like, you can't look at that shirt and not say wicked smart. You just think so. I think of like Goodwill hunting or a Bostonian accent is that, I mean, it tells a little bit of the background of that you're in Rhode Island right now. So I got to feeling that it's something to do with that. Yeah.    Chris (30m 2s): It's fun. It's yeah. Boston area, wicked smart. We w smart real estate coach was first. And my wife thought of that way back in like 13. We, so we started that. And then we recently trademarked the name. And then, and then the LLC, we changed names to wicked smart. It's our brand. Now the, the, the wicked smart community is all associates. The wicked smart listeners as the podcast list says, it's nothing more than kind of a new England. It don't work because the name was already smart, real estate.    Jesse (30m 29s): Careful here. I've heard a trademark three times here. I've got to be careful. What I put in the show notes. Am I to get a couple of calls from your lawyers? So we, we asked four questions to all the guests that we have on the show before we wrap up. And if you're cool with that, we, we can hit you with those. Then after we'll, we can go over, you know, where people can reach you and a little bit about what we, what we'll be putting in the show notes. Awesome. Okay. Number one, what's something you know, now that you wish    Speaker 2 (30m 57s): You knew at the beginning of your career    Chris (31m 0s): With certainty, the fact that everything you possibly could think of that you want to do, someone's done it. And I know that's easier said than done. I thought that when I was younger, but the only two times I ran into trouble in the rockets and had a tough time. I look back. If he isn't going to realize I didn't have that mental, because I got too cocky. Like I know, and I know literally everything you can think of, it's someone did it go find it and model it    Jesse (31m 23s): Right on ties in nicely to the second question we ask our guests, your view on mentorship for the guys and gals, young and old, what are, what's your take?    Chris (31m 35s): Well, look, I'll give a good example. A direct example. Again, Jesse, we have stuff we can sell people and they can disappear. Never talk to us. It's okay. But the fact is without the hands-on guidance with us or anyone else like that, formula Gabriel, you have three steps. You will leave money on the table. So why not do it more profitable, more, more quickly than the opposite? Why not? It's crazy. So I can attribute. I could pick out in the last 10 years, it'd be at a time I could pick out each mentor I've had in literally attribute for a million million to that particular relationship.    So it's, it's, I couldn't stress that enough. And people say, I can't afford it. Yes, you can. If you simply get resourceful. When I came out of the doldrums of the crash, I found some of that. I said, look, I'm going to crush it with this particular mentor. And as I do deals, I will give you a third or half whatever I told them until you're a hundred percent return on your money. You can get resourceful. If you believe in yourself and your mentor, you can go find the money when it's not certain,    Jesse (32m 33s): For sure another good lead into a resources. So right now, stuff that you've had, you know, whether it's a book, whether it's a podcast, what's a resource you're you're into right now that you'd recommend to, to listeners.    Chris (32m 47s): Okay. Depends on what stage of the business they're at. So it's, so instead of being a general and say, mentor, if you're at a stage where it's at least you and one person on your team, at least two people, and you're at a stage where you're kind of have a goal to get to that seven figure, mark, there's a group I follow still to this day. Since the day I met him at 17. Although he entrepreneurs amazing group, I attribute most of our scaling and success to them. If you're a smaller entrepreneur, solopreneur, it's back to what you and I already talked about. Find someone specifically, that's doing what you're doing and go latch on with them.    Jesse (33m 20s): Great answer. Final question. First car, make and model    Chris (33m 25s): 1978 deep wagon there Jeep wagon ear.    Jesse (33m 31s): I like it right on. Okay, Chris, you've been really generous with your time here for listeners. Where could they find you? What, what can we put in the show notes?    Chris (33m 43s): I just thought of two things, as you were talking, you asked some really cool questions about the book. So one is wicked smart, sorry. Smart realestate coach.com is the main site. So you can hit the webinar there. It's free. You can get a lot of free resources there. I'm big on free. Find out if you want to do this niche, right? Secondly, because you have so many cool questions with the book I tell you what we can do, and my support will love me. But you can put in the show notes, I'll give you the support email. I'll have you want to do it. They can get the hard copy so they can get the hard copy of the new rules and the hard copy of real estate on your terms, we'll mail or our expense.    You won't put a in, we just need an address. So put that in the show notes. And then if they want a free call, there's a really cool strategy expert we have now. And just 18 months ago, he wasn't even in real estate. His name is Brian. And if you've got a smart realestate coach.com forward slash action, you'll get a free strategy call with him. They'll tell you a story and see if it's a fit for you. And you can keep digging free until you decide what you want.    Jesse (34m 38s): My guest today has been Chris Prefontaine, Chris, thanks for being part of working capital. Thanks buddy. Thanks. Pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one.  Take care. 

Matt Gouge has spent 5 years in direct lending before making a switch to Independent Mortgage Broker in 2018. As an Independent Mortgage broker he takes private advising to the wide variety of clients with diverse needs. Matt`s background Entering the Mortgage business Matt's first investment Business Overview during the 08-09 recession How to grow a real estate business Interest rates and inflation Where Matt is looking for deals Building a team Real estate marketing Investment outlook Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq2XM1Q4PXs-msULABdk2Yw https://mattthemortgageguy.com Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesse Fragale. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley and my special guest today is Matt. Matt has spent five years in direct lending before making the switch to independent mortgage broker in 2018 as an independent mortgage broker.  He takes pride in advising a wide variety of clients with diverse needs as to which lender and loan product is right for them. So today we're going to be talking about all things, investing, all things, mortgages, Matt, how's it going? Oh, it's going great. How are you doing Jesse? I'm doing great, man. The sun is out. It's a beautiful day down here. How's it up in Sacramento, same, same thing.  Matt (56s): And I get this when I record something on YouTube or court's on anywhere. They're like you're in California where it's hot and you're wearing a jacket inside my office freezing cold. So it's, it's 66 in my office, but outside it's, it's probably mid eighties. That'll get to see out that often with as busy as mortgage has been these last few years, but I assure you it's, it's sunny in California still.  Jesse (1m 16s): Yeah, well, it's a pretty topical to be talking mortgages right now. I think over the last few podcasts and just in general, you know, everything has been spotlight on where interest rates are at inflation, you know, the impact of this stimulus. And I'm sure you're seeing a ton of volume right now just given the fact that there's so much capital out there,  Matt (1m 35s): Right? Yeah. There's so much capital and there's so much demand for real estate. That's what people don't realize is like sure. We have a supply problem where, you know, the supply demand imbalance causes this run-up in real estate. You know, you've got viewers that are in Canada, they're seeing similar stuff, but in the United States, we've got price appreciation of 15, 17% sure that, that we need more supply and not enough was built in last 10 years, but nobody's really talking about the fact that like we're on pace to have 7 million sales in 2021, which is like a 20% uptick from previous years when the average year sees about five and a half million sales.  So plenty of demand, I'm surely not lacking in, in business or incoming, you know, loan applications.  Jesse (2m 15s): Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can't remember which guests we had on and put said, there's always that conundrum or that thing in real estate when there's a lot of capital out there, it's just seems, seems like deals are harder and harder to find. And when there isn't, it seems like there's a value deal everywhere. So I think we're definitely in the former right now, trying to find good deals is becoming harder and harder to do. But, you know, from your vantage point, maybe we could take a step back and, you know, how did you get into real estate, the mortgage business? Give us a little bit of a, of the background.    Matt (2m 42s): Sure. I mean, a quick snapshot of, of where, where I've been and what I've done is is I graduated college in 2005 with international business and finance degree. And so I've had a finance background, always been a numbers nerd. Since I was a kid, I used to, you know, tally the groceries as they came into the cart. And if I got it wrong, adding tax, I would cry. And that's the famous story my mom told. So since, since I've been a kid, I've been a numbers, nerd got a finance degree, actually went and ran a small business from graduating till about 2013 and then a small stint in 2013, working for the state of California, doing more finance stuff.    But it just wasn't my cup of tea had friends and mortgage that said, Matt, you know, you've got the numbers, you've got the work ethic, you've got the, the networking and all the stuff that would make a good mortgage professional. You should come do mortgage. And I did. And the rest is history. And, and so into, you know, my foray into mortgage, like other professions you get to see inside of what other people are doing. You know, you get to see inside finances and you sort of learn a little bit about finance. You get to see inside, wow, this guy has got 14 rental properties. That seems kind of cool.    This guy's live in a pretty cool life. And so that I think is what turned me on to, it was just seeing through my mortgage business, what, what investors were doing. And so like so many people, I'm sure you, you, you click onto a bigger pockets podcast, you read a book or two, and you're just like, wow, this is really, really cool. The, the crazy part is, is when I'm talking to investors now in 2021, I'm trying to get them to avoid what I did is literally like, listen, talk about, get excited about everything, but take action. Right? And it's because it was like 2017 before I actually started buying property.    And, and so when I did start buying property and I, and I, and I put together a couple of deals, bought a few fourplexes, a few single families, then it was not just like an idea like, oh, you could get cashflow and you can look at your net worth statement and see the principal pay down and see how things appreciate over time and all the benefits of real estate that, you know, on paper, on a book, in a book, on a podcast, sound great. Then you experienced it in real life for yourself. That I feel like I talk about it different.    Now, when I talk to clients about the power of real estate and all the benefits of real estate, I can use myself as, as a case study or the hundreds of people that I've now worked with that have built wealth one way or another through, through real estate and real estate investing    Jesse (5m 13s): Right on. That's pretty cool. And you know, it's not as a similar story we hear from, and I'm sure you've heard from accountants lawyers where they're like they see a portfolio or a client list where they're like, there's a lot of these wealthy people owning real estate or investing in real estate. So Matt, what was the, you mentioned fourplex, single family. What was the first investment that in 2017 that you made? Well, the first    Matt (5m 33s): One was actually an out-of-state rental and I I've got a video on my YouTube. My YouTube is just Matt, the mortgage guy where    Jesse (5m 41s): Checking that out. I've got a lot of traffic up there. Thanks.    Matt (5m 45s): Yeah, it's, it's, it's been picking up some steam and it's been over the years, just, I get commonly asked questions and I, I basically make videos answering questions. And, and if, if five or six clients asked me the same question a month, my guess is that, you know, nationwide or worldwide, other people have those same questions. And so I made a video, please try to avoid my mistakes when investing at a state. And so like other stories I've heard my first investing experience, wasn't that good. I bought something out of state because in my mind, and being a numbers guy, I thought to myself, you know, this low price point, this, you know, rent per month, this thing's going to be 22% return, 23% return.    What could go wrong? Well, when you're buying stuff, that's in a war zone, you're going to have bad tenants. You're going to have repairs. You're going to have all the nasty stuff, which I've, I've learned. I don't want to deal with not saying that out-of-state real estate real estate doesn't work. Cause I know tons of people that have done it successfully. They've just done it differently than me. If they've done their due diligence, which was mistake. Number one on my part, they've got boots on the ground and professionals that they like and trust in the area they're investing in.    A lot of times they're doing it at scale. So it's not just one property. They've got eight or 10. And so that was 2017. And then my, my other single family rental from 2017 was another common story. I see. And really how I kind of advise my clients to get into real estate investing. I moved out of my primary and bought a new one and kept my old one. And so my old primary became an investment property, not a home run, but it's cool to be able to show people, not just, you know, random figures and say, you know, here's how real estate investing works, but here's me.    I moved out of this thing. If you thought about it, it's going to rent for 2200. Here's the mortgage. It doesn't sound that attractive. But if I show him a 10 year, 15, 20 year horizon and they're working for the state, they're grinding away for, what's going to be, you know, their retirement 30 years from now, I show them like, look at how cool this is. I'm going to get paid a couple hundred dollars a month on this investment. That's an increase in value. You know, even if we only see 3% appreciation on average, which is really conservative for California, you know, this, thing's going to add a half, a million, three quarters of a million to my net worth and then be cashflow positive $2,000 a month.    Once it's paid off. And I'm just doing tax and insurance, like that's cool stuff to show somebody who doesn't know anything about real estate. And it's an easy way to say, could you save up 5% to buy a new primary and have this old one, be your first investment property and then get that, you know, where different parts of the country are different than if I talked about, you know, a half, a million or 700.    Speaker 2 (8m 31s): Yeah. That was in and in equity. People are just like, not here in, in Ohio where I'm at, but    Matt (8m 38s): You know, it's, it's, it's going to be different, different places, but that stuff, it's not rocket science. I don't feel like it's something that's, you know, a super complicated formula other people can follow. And that was my first one. Yeah. And for a lot of people, if you did nothing else, but that, and then maybe buy another or two every Wednesday, I'm on a one rental at a time, a buddy of mine who, who his book that he wrote. And his whole thing is like, try to get to four rentals and four rentals will change your life.    And so a lot of people I talked to that's, that's at least a start, right? Not everybody wants to own 150 units. Not everybody wants to build this humongous empire, but you know, if you, if you have a few rental properties, imagine the folks that just grind their life away for 40 years and then get 36, 24 a month for the rest of their life. You know?    Jesse (9m 33s): Yeah. I think ultimately, you know, even at one or two rental properties, like you said, not everybody wants to own hundreds or thousands of units passive, you know, you're in this game long enough, passive income is not so passive there. There's still, you know, you, you make a decision at a certain point, are you going to start a real estate business? Or are you going to try to make it as hands-off as possible? But one or two properties for a lot of people would rival their 401ks, their retirement savings plans, whatever they have there. Because like you said, you're, you know, you have that appreciation and then you can get into the forced depreciation, depending if you're going commercial, residential.    And on that note, so you got oh five to 2017 and 20 2005 is when you graduated. Did you get into the business? Were you in, were you in the business during 8 0 9 and not like during the recession and deal with, with hap what was happening during that time? Well, I had bought    Matt (10m 24s): My primary in oh six and the small business I was running was a poker room. And so I got to do a ton of great networking right through the poker room. And I had plenty of buddies who, you know, like me were in their mid twenties, starting off, everybody's doing something different. I had plenty of clients, plenty of friends, plenty of family that were all into mortgage and just having a finance background, you know, it interests me. And so I had talked to them. I wasn't actively involved with writing mortgage or anything like that, but I definitely saw a lot of it.    A funny story that I don't tell that often is when I came back, I went and studied abroad in Mexico in oh three and oh four. When I came back, I interviewed at a mortgage company and this was, you know, subprime and AmeriQuest and just injuries. Yeah. Crazy stuff going on. And this company, I went there and I'm like super excited. I'm 24 years old. I'm about to graduate from college. I feel like I've got a good handle on business and, and marketing. And, you know, I've always had good work ethic.    They asked me if I would be willing to like forge documents or they asked me if I'd be like, would I be willing to do, to, to make a deal close? And basically none of it, I said, you know, I'm bilingual. And I live in California, I work hard and I've got some, some business sense. I think that without cheating, I would do fine. And they basically told me I wasn't for them. Right. So no surprise a company like that went out of business, but looking, I think it's cool because I never was involved in writing any of these mortgages that people, you know, look back on and talk about like how terrible of a product, some of these, you know, two 20 eights and interest only arms and whatnot were.    And, and so, you know, having not wrote a alone until 2013, I've only wrote the vast majority 30 year fixed no prepayment penalties and, and really clean loans. Like we've seen since all of a sudden destruction    Jesse (12m 26s): Since the recession. Yeah. So I mean, crazy time, obviously, you know, they've made movies about it. They've people have gone gotten sued, gone to jail now after this time. So why don't we go on to that 30 year fixed, but Canadians will be like, w what the hell is this? This is not a product we have five years is our max for residential in terms of actually fixing rates. But why don't we talk about, we break it up into residential and commercial. So you're looking for single family property.    Why don't we start with that? People that are listening and maybe they have one, a rental property, maybe they're buying their first rental property. It, it is on the single-family side. What do they do once they, you know, they spot a pro property that they like and they're underwriting it. Sure.    Matt (13m 15s): I mean, for most people to, like you said, if, if they're buying their first rental property, they'll reach out to me and say, how do I qualify for rental property? Is it different? It's fairly similar to how you qualify for your primary residence. It's going to be a debt to income ratio thing. So it's, so it's all math on the income side, you vet your income and then debt side, you've got your current mortgage, you've got the new mortgage, you've got whatever car payments, student loans on that. And you just have to have the debt to income ratio work where your income versus all the debts, you know, 45% is probably a good, you know, rough figure.    Some programs go a little higher. Some might even be a little bit stricter depending on your credit score. You may or may not get approved higher or lower, but, but that's the basics of it is that, you know, you're going to have to have verifiable income, unfortunately, through COVID folks that are self-employed are having a little bit harder time. A lot of them that I've seen, you know, business declined in 2020. And that's, that's something that I would love to have a better mortgage products available for self-employed borrowers.    Unfortunately in the, you know, Fannie Freddie, conventional world, there's just not, and it's, and it's something that lenders look at as, you know, variable or uncertain. And so you really have to have a track record as, as a, as a self-employed borrower, because the lenders don't know any other way to look at, like, what, what do I think your future income is going to be? Well, what you made in 19 and 20, and then your year to date P and L and 21. That's the only thing we go off we'll those 30 months and divide them by 30. And that's what we think you're going to make in the future.    And    Jesse (14m 56s): I think, you know, to that point, and like you said, it's, if you're in a different area, different banks, you know, we call it the, the total debt service or the, the, you know, the gross debt service, your TDS and GDS racials. But like you said, 45%. I know in my area, 35%, we're pretty conservative up here is, is fairly standard. May be pushed to 40. But yeah, I think on the self-employed side, it's so funny, you mentioned that because I was just talking to a colleague in the industry, it does commercial mortgages. And he was saying that basically, they're almost creating a product or adjusting, basically making an adjustment for 2020 income.    You know, especially if you're self-employed for a long enough time, they see, you know, a steady increase or, or, you know, stasis, and then 2020, you know, came back and then 2020 started picking up again. So it's like, well, if we lose, if we use your last two, it's not really a good picture of what, of what you're, you're really making out there. Exactly.    Matt (15m 50s): Yeah. And I've been telling self-employed borrowers that like stay tuned because mortgage guidelines change. Unfortunately they don't change fast enough sometimes for you, but in, you know, in an ideal world, it would be, make sense where, like you said, I could look back at the track record, you had a blip and you were out of work for three months, maybe your state shut down or whatever it was. And now you're back, you know, full bore. But you know, the guidelines that are in place right now are, are to be completely honest, fairly restrictive for self-employed borrowers. You can just got to have a business that has weather the storm and can show that on paper.    Right. Because that's, that's another part about being self-employed is that you could have a business that has a $2 million top line. If your bottom line is 24 grand, you're not going to be able to buy a half a million dollar house. Yeah,    Jesse (16m 39s): Absolutely. So, okay. On the residential side, what are you seeing in terms of, you know, the average client, you have percentage payment that they're able to achieve and what, at what point can you not stay within the residential, you know, mortgage product and you have to go into commercial, I assume that'd be a unit count. Right?    Matt (16m 60s): Exactly. And so that's, my, my lane is one to four unit residential stuff. Once you get to five units and above it's going to be commercial. And so literally all the business I write is going to be a single family, a duplex or triplex or a fourplex. And, you know, even if it looks really similar to a fourplex down the street, if you've got a five unit building, I just can't finance it. And, and so you gotta look for commercial financing and, and the main difference, you've probably talked about this in the past, being in commercial is that, you know, when you're looking at a commercial asset, they're looking at the building and they're looking at it's producing this much income.    If you're buying a four unit property, if it rents for a zillion dollars and your mortgage payment is 3000 a month, that isn't necessarily what the lender is looking at. They're looking at your ability to repay. And so somebody who's got $200,000 a year in W2, income is going to qualify no matter what, you know, the building could be a net loser. And so that's, that's something important to think about for people that are looking for residential properties. And another reason when I'm coaching investors or I'm talking to investors about qualifying for mortgages, and the fact that you can only do 10 conventional loans, is that if you've got a great W2 income and your plan is to, you know, leave that job, but build a rental portfolio, as long as you want to get this cream of the crop financing, where you're getting, you know, 3% on single family and sub 4% on the multi-family on a 30 year fixed rate term, keep that W2 jobs, you can qualify for those because once you quit that job, it's, it's highly unlikely that you're going to have enough net rental income on your tax return to qualify for those same sweet, sweet, conventional Fannie Freddie loans.    Jesse (18m 49s): I'm curious the, the 10 property limit. I, you know, I've heard that thrown around a bunch of times. Do you know what the actual, first of all, what the logic of that is, or the history is, is it just something that has always been done?    Matt (19m 3s): You know what, that's, that's an awesome question, dude. Like, I've never, I've never thought about the history or the logic behind that. Besides like, I know that some lenders have implemented stuff in the past where they don't let you know, some, some lenders aren't huge. And so they're smaller. And they'll say, I don't want more than four loans from one individual, even though they could do, you know, that person's ninth and 10th, if they already had eight finance properties. And so maybe it's something where, you know, a smaller lender or even a bigger lender, doesn't want to have 77 finance properties from one person.    If that person goes belly up, you know, it's, it's spread the risk for that one. That, that would be my only thought because, you know, if somebody qualifies. Yeah. And I guess in general, it's probably a higher risk if somebody has 47 finance properties. And so that, that, that could be the only thing is that yeah, that ship crashes, then, then it's, you know, $14 million worth of mortgages. Versus if they've only got a handful, then it's, it's less risk to the lender, but that's, that's a good one, dude.    I'm going to even take a note and see if I can find some history of like, when that started. And    Jesse (20m 15s): Yeah, I've always been curious because I've heard that before. And then usually I guess it, perhaps one of the reasons it doesn't get answers by the time you get to approaching 10, a lot of people are switching to commercial product. So it's almost like, you know, unless single family is literally your bread and butter. So in your lane, one to four units, are your clients, are you able to still have them put the properties into a corporation or LLC, or do being a residential mortgage?    I assume there's, it still comes with a personal that, you know, you're, you're personally still on the hook for the right,    Matt (20m 51s): Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing too, is a lot of people want to, you know, not like be personally liable for the debt and lenders just aren't going to lend to you. And, you know, you can, you can slap it into an LLC for liability protection and for a slip and fall at your property. But as far as like closing alone, most all traditional lenders are going to make you close in your personal name. You're personally liable. You know, they're pulling your credit, they're qualifying you as a person. And then I see investor slap at Nelsey just, just for the liability protection.    There are some like non QM lenders, which has a broker. You know, we broke her out, plenty of that, where we're doing non-traditional type loans, debt, service, coverage, ratio, loans, bank statement, loans, and those lenders can work outside of, you know, the, the regulations that are put on conventional loans where sometimes they'll allow you to, to actually fund the loan in, in an LLC. But it's really not that common. And I get the question quite a bit and I haven't dove in deep enough to find lenders that, that do that, do that very often.    Jesse (21m 59s): Yeah. I think on the commercial side, even, even on our side at the beginning, when you're getting into it, you're, you're personally indemnifying until you really build up, you know, actual assets within, within the company in terms of where we're at today. I mean, like we talked about a little bit the last year and a half has been kind of crazy. There's a lot of volume in terms of mortgages, what you're seeing. If we focus kind of macro economically interest rates, how are you advising clients? How is that impacting if at all, the way you're doing business in, in 2021,    Matt (22m 33s): As far as far as like where interest rates are headed or what I think about the housing market    Jesse (22m 37s): Or, well, number one we're interest rates are headed in. And do you have a strong view about that? I know, like you can have people on completely opposite sides of this, of this conversation that are both really intelligent and informed that have very different views of where they think interest rates are going. But yeah, I would just like to get your perspective on that and obviously, you know, that has a material impact impact on the, on the products that you offer, right?    Matt (23m 2s): Yeah. I mean, I think like when people ask me, cause that's a million dollar question for a mortgage broker, like what's your rate is the question number one, and what are rates doing? Where are they headed as question number two? And I mean, we've seen some volatility last week was, was the, the, the fed meeting where, where the fed talked about, you know, the, the future thought of, of moving the fed funds rate. And so people don't know, like in the U S the fed fund rate, it doesn't necessarily track the 30 year mortgages in the short term, but over the longterm, it certainly does.    And so just them talking about talking about the future of moving the fed funds rate saw a tick up in 30 year rates, probably like a quarter percent in, like, I think it, what was last Wednesday was the 16th, 16th, 17th, 18th were all red days for mortgage mortgage bonds. So it was like a quarter worse on those three days. And so I think that anybody who follows mortgage and mortgage rates knows that the fed who's buying over a hundred billion dollars a month in mortgage backed securities.    They're like keeping mortgage rates low in the U S once they start taking their foot off of that gas, or, you know, rates have nowhere to go, but up, I don't think that they're going to increase fast. So I wouldn't tell anybody like, you know, get it now hot. You've got to, you know, refinance today are going to miss out. But Morgan now that are really close to 3% on a 30 year fixed for the most well-qualified clients, if those are three and a half or 3.75, by the end of the year, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still at the same levels they're at today.    I would be surprised cause cause they they're going to gradually increase is kind of my thought. And like, if, if you look across like national association of realtors, mortgage, professional association, anybody who's got surveys on where they see mortgage rates by the end of 2021, it's higher. It's not a ton higher, but it's a little bit higher. And so what I'm seeing a ton of on this subject is people that have a bunch of equity because we've seen, you know, 30 plus percent appreciation over the last 24 months for a lot of people in a lot of places in the U S is people are grabbing that equity and they want that long-term 30 year fixed money.    A lot of people think that, you know, inflation isn't necessarily transitory and some of it is here to stay. So they want to hedge against inflation. They want to pull some of that equity out of their home. And the crazy part for me as an investor and dealing with so many investors is there's all this money and nowhere to put it, like, there's just, they're, they're looking for you, especially I think in, in residential real estate, because I'm not going to pretend like it's easy to find cash flowing deals or great deals out there.    You know, I'm looking, I'm submitting offers, I've got dozens of clients that are submitting offers and you know, even the ones that are playing the long-term don't need humongous returns are, you know, they're searching for six and 8% before they wouldn't even look, they wouldn't even think about that deal. And they can't even find that in some of the markets they're looking in. And so that'll be the interesting thing going forward is where are people going to find a place to park all this money? Because I know with absolute certainty, there's just so much capital looking for a place to park it, you know, in my little micro world of me and my mortgage clients, I've got people in the bay area that had paid off homes that just said, I'm going to pull out the 820 2003 75, park it on the sidelines.    I mean, clients that have seven 50 already sit in the bank, they're just doubling up because if something happens, if, if there's a deal to be had, I want to be ready.    Jesse (26m 45s): Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a, I think that's everywhere. I think people are any appreciation that they've built up, you know, and the products where you have, you know, different banks call them different things where you have a line of credit attached to the mortgage and you can actually utilize that when you see an opportunity, speaking of your markets. So you're in California, you're an investor. Number one. How do you do that? And where are you looking right now for deals    Matt (27m 12s): I'm looking, you know, with, with, with the experience I had at a state I've, you know, it's, it's good to be self-aware and you know, your strengths and weaknesses, the people that I see do it out of state have, you know, a tie to the city that they're investing in either. It's, you know, I've got family that lives there. I've got a real estate buddy who lives there and he helps me find the real estate. He knows the great property managers. He knows the great construction folks. I think my weakness for investing out of state is I just don't have the boots on the ground that I would want to have to make it a successful operation.    And so my general investing, I guess, philosophy is I want to be able to drive to it. And there's some markets that are three hours away, three and a half hours away in California. Some people think that I'm crazy because it's so tenant friendly in California, but there's, there's something about being able to drive, you know, meet a contractor, meet the property manager, look at the building, talk about the building. And so the neighborhoods that I'm looking at, I, I created a video that could send out to real estate agents who are working in the markets where I'm looking and, you know, I don't want stuff in eight neighborhoods because it's just, it's expensive.    It's just too expensive. And so, you know, the, the B minus C plus, if I could duplicate what I did in 2019 with the two fourplexes that we bought, I would do it 10 times over because those are, you know, appreciating their cash flowing. And I think when I looked at it last, it was like 16 or 18% cash on cash return after all expenses. And now after 24 months, I feel like I even have like a worst case scenario because obviously there was some tenants that were struggling and in these type of markets, these type of units I have that are mostly one ones, some, two ones and some three twos between those eight units in those two fourplexes, I would imagine expenses and vacancies would only improve in the future and not get worse.    But even with all that stuff considered, you know, a 14, 15% cash on cash return, now it's more expensive. And so I've adjusted accordingly and, and I've looked in other markets like Fresno, California, which is more central. And, you know, similarly it's, it's, it's a C plus B minus and you know, the homes are 50 years old, but I just, as, as a person, who's going to be continually bullish on real estate. People are always going to need a place to live.    And as crazy as people think that I'm home, like price appreciation for purchase has gone crazy. You should see some of the numbers for rentals around rental increase is, is gone crazy as well. And, you know, I don't think I'm ever going to have a thousand units. So if I have, you know, 50 spread across a couple of different California markets with really good property managers in place, I'm not worried about the tenant laws so much because in my experience at least, and it's maybe it's only been three to five years.    I haven't experienced the worst of the worst. You deal with tenants like they're human beings and you work with them and you're kind, I, I just, anything can be worked out. You know, I had some terrible tenants where we just had to say, I don't want an eviction to go on your record to where, you know, it's gonna affect you for the next seven years. If you can be out by next Friday, we'll forgive all the back rent and you won't have an eviction and then they're out. And then we clean it up and we move on. And, and that type of stuff I think is just to be expected.    And you just write it into when you're thinking about how something's going to perform. So I guess long-winded way of saying, I'm just looking for cash flowing stuff that, you know, appreciation would be kind of gravy, but thinking about 10, 15, 20 years from now, let's call it 50 units that are paid off. And when they're paid off, they're $500 per door or something like that, then    Jesse (31m 25s): What kind of mortgage broker says that    Matt (31m 28s): I know, well, that's the thing too is, is, is, you know, I'm human like everybody else. And I feel like when I talk to somebody, I try dig into like, what's where are you at in life? What are you trying to do? Certainly right now, I'm not trying to pay anything off. Yeah. And it's funny because I made a video talking about like fast ways to pay off your mortgage. And people are just like, okay, you're an idiot. It's a 3% mortgage. Why would you ever do that? I'm like, listen, I've literally like stopped any additional principal payments on all the stuff I own because I, I see what you see Mr.    YouTube.    Speaker 2 (32m 3s): Yeah.    Matt (32m 4s): Not trying to like throw that money at, at this long-term 3% debt, but, but things change. Right. And I think if I talk to a client who's 57 and you know, they've worked their behind off, and they're like, I'd love to have this stuff paid off at 62. It feels different for me and, and whatnot. Then I'm not going to tell them, don't do that because you know, the money versus, or the rate versus inflation, it's getting that money for free. Don't do that, sir. Like, you know, every everybody's different, so I'm not, I'm not tied to one belief. And I, and I honestly try to keep an open mind to not just like how I view things, but people in different stages of their life can view things.    Jesse (32m 42s): Yeah. I think it goes back to what you said before, even before the show, when you're talking about not everybody wants to have a, a thousand units and in the same breath, not everybody, you know, wants to maximize and be, you know, most efficient with every single dollar. They have, they, some people just rather the peace of mind that that's paid off, I feel better. You know, even, even if I know I can get a better technically return on equity or, you know, whatever it is. So in terms of, in terms of the actual market that you're looking at, these micro markets, you know, three hour drive, four hour drive, are you, do you have a team that, where you're going to look for these properties, because if it's anything like our market, you know, if you go on the MLS, you can pretty much forget it.    You're in there with 10 other people bidding on stuff. Are you seeing the same thing? And if so, how are you finding the deals? And what's, what's the marketing like?    Matt (33m 32s): Yeah. I mean, I don't have a huge marketing budget or team, right? Because truth be told I'm 95% focused on the mortgage business, serving clients and in a stage where my business is growing, you know, bonkers, but for the areas where I am looking, I tried to duplicate what I did in Sacramento and surrounding where it's just all network. And as a mortgage broker, I probably know 500 real estate agents.    And of those 500 real estate agents, 20 are active investors. Try to let them know I'm looking for stuff as well. I, I know through conversation with them, stuff that they're looking for, some of them are doing just flips. They don't care about a buy and hold. Something might come across, you know, them, that makes sense to me. And they would never even think about buying it. So getting clear with them about, Hey, here's what I'm looking for. If you find it, let me know. I probably have between two or three different markets and 40 to 50 different agents, eight or 10 deals coming across every week.    You know? And if I was trying to build those, trying to get huge, I could probably find a way to 10 X that and get a hundred deals to look at every single week. But I    Jesse (34m 44s): It's just not your full-time job. Right.    Matt (34m 46s): Right. Yeah. And so, so focused on the business and growing that, and then with those deals that I'm seeing, you know, writing one or two offers, but other investors I've talked to have had similar story as me where I've probably wrote a couple dozen offers with zero getting accepted. It's like, sure. I'm in the market to buy it. If a deal comes across my desk, I'm, I'm willing, able, and ready and I've fired. I just haven't hit anything yet.    Jesse (35m 15s): Yeah. And so it's almost sorry. Sorry to interrupt you there. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, no, I was going to say it's almost a, it can be a feature, not a bug where I know friends of mine that are putting offers literally this year on a hundred different properties, not getting many of them, but they have capital that they need to put to work. Whereas you can kind of do your full-time job, put a few offers in, you know, if the right comes along, you'll jump on it. But that makes you actually a bit more conservative in your underwriting because you don't have to, there's no pressure for you to do deals.    Matt (35m 46s): Right, right. Yeah. There's no money that needs to be deployed. You know, it's, it's, it's more just me itching, right?    Speaker 2 (35m 52s): It's like, gosh, somebody has got to get to work. I    Matt (35m 56s): Can't have it in a, in a one half of 1% yield savings or whatever that gets in for too long. Because then I feel like as I look at gas prices, as I look at everything going up in price, this, this, this money is withering away.    Jesse (36m 12s): Yeah. Right on. Well, before we get to a, we ask every guest like a final four question, bunch of softballs. I just want to get your take on the next few years investing. It sounds like single families, the space you're going to play in. Is there any interest in branching out to other areas, whether that's, you know, multi-family retail office, industrial, what what's on the horizon for you?    Matt (36m 36s): You know, I've looked at some office space and I've, I've, I've gone through like learning how to underwrite deals, which started as I'm going to buy an office in Sacramento. And if I'm gonna buy an office in Sacramento to do mortgage out of, I might as well buy something where I can lease out space to others. And you know, not just my mortgage business, leasing out space, but, but others in there, you know, paying myself.    And so, so that's something that, that I'd be interested in. Cause it was cool. I got into some underwriting and talks to people that know a lot more than I do. And it's cool to think about, oh, you can buy this $900,000 building, you know, put about a hundred thousand in upgrades, get it fully occupied. Now it's worth 1.5. Like that value add which to be, to be completely honest, as I looked at it, I thought to myself, like everyone I talk to is working from home. Why isn't commercial real estate on sale more than it is. Right.    And so that, that might be something, but, but I really, you know, have a strong tie to residential real estate and probably more of an in right where I just know so many people that I can be presented deals and, and be picky and choosy and add good stuff to the portfolio. So that's, that's more likely area where I'll play at. I looked at some apartment deals over the last couple of years and I guess I, I, I put in a few offers on, on a few different, like smaller, like 12 to 15 unit apartments, but nothing stuck.    So I think I'm open. I think that, you know, the entrepreneur entrepreneurial spirit, you know, lives, whether it's a commercial building and, and it's all with the same goal, really, it's just like freedom, like thinking about being able to take a month and, you know, take the kids and the wife to Europe and have cashflow coming in. I mean, over the last eight years, as I've grown this mortgage business, I've worked hard. And so, so thinking about, even if it's fairly passive, you know, like the Marysville stuff is one hour per month talking to the property manager, it's, it's, it's as passive as it gets.    And so adding more of that, you know, passive fairly passive income is pretty attractive when I think about it.    Jesse (38m 55s): Yeah, sure. I can definitely agree with you there. And echo just because office is, is my world on the broker agenda and yeah. Prices are sticky. You know, they don't like to lower their rents long-term leases. You think half of it would be on sale, but we'll see in the next year or two, see how things go. Obviously retail has taken, taken it on the chin to a certain extent. All right. So four questions we typically ask every guest, I'll lay them up if you're ready. Yes, sir. Let's do it.    All right, Matt, what's something, you know, now in your career that you wish you knew when you got started. Oh man.    Matt (39m 34s): Something I know now that I wish I knew when I got started, I wish I wish I knew what a great deal. What, what, how many great deals were around me? Right. It took me so long to pull the trigger. I wish somebody would have been like, Matt, just take action. Because this is what I tell investors do is I tell them, like, once you take action on the first property, you're gonna look back and go that wasn't that hard and you can do it again and again, and again and again. So if I could rewind to 2013 and be like that first couple times, that that, that idea got into your head where you saw a client that had investment real estate and you thought it was a good idea.    If you would have taken action then, and started that a little bit sooner, w there, we might be a, you know, three X where we are today, as far as real estate holdings.    Jesse (40m 17s): Yeah, absolutely. Zero to one. All right. Number two. Mentorship for the, for the younger people out there, or just your, your view of mentorship, has it, has it been a, a large part of your journey?    Matt (40m 29s): Oh, it's been so, so important. I think it was funny. I was talking to a guy who works for a bay area startup, where they basically do, you know, mentoring and coaching and all kinds of stuff in that space to C level executives. And I talked to him about, you know, personal coaching around real estate, around my mortgage business, around even life and family and whatnot. It's super vital. And my trick, when I talk to people about mortgage, like how did you go from zero to do on 125 million a year and 300 plus transactions?    I literally started and I did 27 deals. And I looked around and said, who's doing deals a year. I want to talk to them. I talked to them, how do you do it? What's your, you know, what are some best practices that you have? And I implemented some of that. And then when I got to 70 or 80 deals a year, I looked around and said, who's doing 150 deals a year. And you know, you'd be surprised at how many people who are rungs above you on whatever ladder it is. You're trying to climb that are happy to share, you know, their story, their structure, how they do things. And I continue to do it.    Now, I'm trying to find mortgage teams that do a $500 million a year and how the heck they structure that, how they manage their time, their team, their systems, all of that stuff like that, to me is the secret sauce. And so anybody who starting out in mortgage who's like looking for mentorship or really anything investing or whatever it is, you know, you look to people who are either where you want to be or headed and closer to where you want to be. And you do as much as you can to soak up some of that, get some of those best practices.    I've tried to do that for people who are newer in mortgage, my Monday Q and a on YouTube, I started doing 6:00 PM Pacific standard time, two hour question and answer. And at first I thought I was just speaking directly to consumers who were looking for a good mortgage advice. And we could just do a Q and a, rather than post a comment and wait two days to get a response. Let's do it live. I found out there was a ton of brand new loan officers. They were like, this is super informational. This is cool. I, I I'm learning so much. And so now I'm starting to invite new loan officers because that's, that's how you learn.    Just talk to somebody who's been doing it and is a little bit farther along the path that you're trying to walk down.    Jesse (42m 46s): Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more with that. Or what is a, either in the past or now a resource that, that you find vital, you'd like listeners to know about resource that could be podcasts, YouTube channel book.    Matt (42m 59s): I mean, I think that I love books and I love audible. And so, you know, there might be some listeners that want to do commercial real estate. There might be some listeners that want to do residential real estate. There might be some that, you know, are hanging out and listening to this, but they want to lose 40 pounds, whatever your, your, your passion or your goal is. If, if you're spending your time listening to information, that's going to help you with that. It's so powerful. And I think that over the last few years, like my personal growth, I can attribute to the fact that, you know, I'm letting a lot of the good stuff get in.    I'm not spending my time. I couldn't tell you about all the cool Netflix series and stuff, but I can tell you about, you know, what's the guy's name that wrote winning Tim Grover, the guy who coached Jordan and Toby, you know, all, all the cool books that are out. I can tell you a lot more about those. And then the Netflix series that are out. And I think that, you know, that's, that's something that, you know, it, we live in a great time. In 2021, you could literally go on YouTube and learn anything you want. You could find a podcast on anything you're interested in.    You could find an audible book on somebody who's wrote on a subject that you want to learn more about. Plug yourself into that stuff and watch yourself grow by a half an inch every day in a few years, you'll be, you know, it's, it's crazy how far you can come. Awesome,    Jesse (44m 24s): Man. I like it. All right. Last one. As listeners know my personal favorite, first car make and model.    Matt (44m 31s): Oh man. So 1996, my parents gave me their 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass,    Speaker 3 (44m 42s): Kalai. Hatless elegant. I don't know how    Speaker 2 (44m 47s): It just, it seems so much    Matt (44m 49s): Older than it was, but the best part about it is, is I think I ended up buying myself a new car after that. But fast forward to 2003, I was going to go down to Mexico and study. And my parents were like, oh, if you want to take that old Cutlass Kelly, you can. So I drove myself from Northern California down to Southern California, across to Texas and down into like the middle of Mexico. Good at the row. It was like a 55 hour drive. And I had that old Cutlass that the top, the roof, like the stuff was falling down the car, must've been worth 500 bucks tops.    But I cruise that thing all over Mexico for 18 months. It was it's amazing.    Jesse (45m 26s): I feel like down there, it just be car now because the Cutlass is, they used to just put up that became such a hydraulic, just dubs on it, man. I remember that car he's at my uncle had one of those. Just, just like a, just a steel rectangle going down the street, but awesome. Sweet dude for listeners out there, aside from a Google search of your name, we'll put show links below. Where is the best place to, to go out, to reach to    Matt (45m 53s): You? Yeah. I mean, I think that I've hopefully done a pretty good job. A lot of people don't even know my last name is because I just brand myself as Matt, the mortgage guy. So if you go to Google and type in Matt in the mortgage guy, you're going to find tons of different stuff. Matt, the mortgage guy.com I'm on Instagram as math and mortgage guy CA which is California, not Canada. Sorry. I I'd love to have people check out math, the mortgage guy on YouTube. Cause I think that 450 plus videos, my main it's crazy.    My main thing has always been education. So, so ideally somebody who's looking for mortgage information, you can type in how to escrow accounts, work math, the mortgage guy. Why I get a supplemental tax, bill, math and mortgage guy, all the things that my clients have asked me, you might have a similar question and you type in that question, the math, the mortgage guy, check out the YouTube channel. If there's something that you don't see and you think it's a question that other people might be asking, go ahead and fire off a comment. I'm still it's getting to that point. I think man, with a hundred thousand views a month or something where I'm having trouble keeping up with answering every comment.    But I was, I was bragging like two months ago. Every single comment I respond to and every single comment is me personally responding to it. I got to spend like an hour and a half the other    Speaker 2 (47m 5s): Night. I'm like they just keep coming. That's crazy.    Jesse (47m 10s): My guest today has been Matt, the mortgage guy, Matt, thanks for being part of working capital. That was awesome. Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care. 

Brittany Arnason is a full-time commercial real estate investor and social media influencer, commercial real estate junkie, DIY Junkie, retired power engineer, author and speaker. Brittany's Initial steps in Real Estate Getting into constructing  The power of Instagram and marketing The ups and downs of DIY projects How Brittany's career has evolved Opportunities for investing in the US Her investment philosophy Structuring of self-storages deals Investment geography Distribution of team roles The impact of lockdowns Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://instagram.com/investorgirlbritt?utm_medium=copy_link https://brittanyarnason.com/ Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesse Fragale. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm Jennifer galley and my special guest today is Brittany Arneson. Brittany is a full-time commercial real estate investor.  And I think you just have to take one, look at horror at her Instagram page to really get a sense of what she does. Commercial real estate junkie, a DIY jaggy, retired power engineer, author, speaker, educator, and investor. Britney. How are you doing today?  Brittany (47s): I'm really good. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. My pleasure.  Jesse (51s): So we talked a little bit before the show about past guests saying that you have to have Brittany on, you have to have Brittany on, I've been following you on Instagram, on your DIY projects for probably over a year now, maybe longer, really inspiring stuff. So thank you again for coming on. And I think it's going to be a treat today.  Brittany (1m 9s): I appreciate it.  Jesse (1m 11s): So Brittney, on the show pretty standard for us is to have guests come on, take a step back and talk a little bit about real estate in general and how they got into the industry and what their, you know, initial steps in the journey were.  Brittany (1m 27s): Yeah, so I got started super young. I bought my first house at 18 years old and so I've been in real estate over 10 years now. And really I got started when I was even younger than that. Cause my mom owned rental properties and she would get my brother and I to help her out with renovations, but just kind of where you can see that DIY stuff filtering through my Instagram page, but got started with her. She would just, you know, hand me a paint brush and say, get to work kid, help me out. I can't pay people. So I want to just get, so that was fun.  Learned a ton from her. And then I was always really motivated throughout high school and everything to buy my first house. So, but one in Saskatchewan, if anyone knows where that is talking to it, talking to a kid from Toronto. So yeah, totally. All my American friends are like, huh, what's the schedule. It's kind of like in the center of Canada where all those super cheap properties are and have family out in Saskatchewan and notice that the properties were quite cheap.  So got the first house for $25,000 for the property and rents were around 850. So tenants pay all utilities, right? So I'm like, okay, super simple math. You don't need to know more details than that. That makes sense paid off in a few years. So, I mean, it's funny looking back because it was kind of one of those things you'd jump in without knowing a lot, which I think nowadays it is kind of difficult for people because it's information overload all the time. But if you keep it super simple and you don't know all, I didn't know anything, I never looked up anything online.  I didn't listen to any podcasts or books or anything. I just kind of saw an example from my mom. So I'm like, this makes sense, like put money into something and it pays you. Okay, I'll try and do that. So, but not getting too wrapped up in all the details. So it's interesting looking back on that right  Jesse (3m 19s): On. So your first property was the price of a now used Honda civic, roughly.  Brittany (3m 25s): Exactly. Right. The cool thing is too. Like I could still buy properties out there. I kind of away from the single family world now, but there's still properties out there for that price. Yeah.  Jesse (3m 37s): It's funny too. You see all these online, you know, the 1% rule, the 10, whatever gross multiplier, you're like, those properties don't exist and it's like, no, actually that one did that one pretty much worked out like that to have $800. Yeah, absolutely. So are you, are you, you I'm a us citizen or can, or do you have dual citizenship when you purchased it or  Brittany (3m 59s): So, yeah, I'm from Canada. I was born just outside of Banff, Alberta, so super awesome mountain town. And that's kind of where a lot of people where you see the real estate market is just insane. Right? So when my parents moved there in the nineties, everything was dirt cheap. Like it's $40,000 for a house or something. And now it's probably worth over 2 million. It's just like absolutely ridiculous, but so grew up there. And once I started in real estate, I moved out to Saskatchewan and because that's where the cheap properties were and I had some family around there.  So, you know, I just really wanted to be successful in real estate. And I'm like, how can I make this work? And if I'm just starting out, don't have a ton of money and all that sort of thing. So that's kind of where I went because Ken was ridiculously expensive. So got it. Yeah. Get out of that town. But now I have been living in the states last six months and just have a working visa right  Jesse (4m 53s): On. So at 18, I mean, not everybody's thinking about buying properties and growing a portfolio. So you had the parents with the rentals kind of, you know, got the edge from there to where you are now. I've seen, you know, the, the DIY projects that you do. How did you jump into actually constructing and maybe part of that is that a, you are a retired power worker. So arranger, that's what Brandon said on the that's amazing. He would a power engineer, I should say.  Yeah. So, so how did, like, what was that story like?  Brittany (5m 29s): Yeah, so I really got into power engineering because it was a job that I could, I could get my certificate within six months and then get a really high income and I wanted the high income so I could buy real estate. So the end goal was always, I want to get that paycheck so I can buy real estate. But then I worked as a power engineer for six months, which was awesome. I learned a ton and I really liked the hands-on stuff. So it's fixing machinery and all this sort of thing, but working in it for six months, I just, I, for a fact, I already knew this beforehand, but I was like, this nine to five life is not for me.  So I kinda got out of that as quick as I could and jumped into real estate. Full-time so use the advantage of having the W2 income. I always say the T4 or W2, whatever, but use that to get some lines of credits and mortgages and all that sort of thing. And then I'm like, well, I got to get out of this and do my own thing. So, and actually started during that job is when I kind of started my whole Instagram page and started to really get involved in the networking and creating that credibility for myself, for  Jesse (6m 36s): Sure. And I mean, like, just for those that, that are living under a rock, haven't seen your page, I think it's your summit 215,000 followers on Instagram, just as an aside. What was that like just, you know, from you posting your first stuff. Cause I I'm, I'm almost positive. Maybe it was a year or two years, but I don't think you were at that level yet. So what, how did that kind of, how did that evolve that, you know, everything you started posting?  Brittany (7m 2s): Yeah. Well, that's a good question because it is really hard when you first start out because it takes so much time to it's trial and error and it's a lot of consistency. It's hard because you can't really see the long-term benefits when you're first starting out. And you're like, this is just a lot of time and frustrating, right? Because it's not getting the engagement and you don't really know what to post super own. Sure. But for me it was just that trial and error. So I, when I first started, I actually had a mentor. I was at a real estate kind of meetup, super new. I think I had three properties at the time, but a mentor told me, you know, you have to do something as a new investor, you have to do something to create credibility for yourself.  So he suggested, you know, starting a blog or a newsletter or an email list or something like that. And so that's what I did. I started a blog and I called it little investments on the Prairie's. So, cause I was buying these little property. That's pretty cute, but I'm not writing, isn't my strong suit. So I try to take me so long to write up these blogs and it wasn't really gaining a lot of traction. So I started, I didn't have Instagram beforehand, but I thought, you know, I really liked the photos and the videos and that sort of thing. I always kind of had that artistic kind of sense, I guess.  So I started with Instagram and I named, I think I had that name for my Instagram as well, little investments on the Prairie. It was just super long. And I'm like, okay, I'm not getting anywhere with this. And then I saw a girl, her, her handles thought it was girl. And I'm like, how would invest a girl best to grow Brit? And that's where that kind of started. So it was a little, a little bit trial and error and figuring out what works. But I do suggest for people to have their, their first name or something to do with it because now when people type investor on Instagram might have wanted to come up.  So I love having my first name, but also the word investor in there. Cause that's what I'm all about. So yeah. And,  Jesse (8m 51s): And it's, I mean it is, is I think it's topical and it's important. You mentioned where the credibility pieces, because you just see so many people in our industry online, you know, you don't know what I can only imagine at this time, like I started investing, you know, the same, roughly the same age you were, I was 19 turning 20. And at that time you had magazines, you had like a few magazines, BiggerPockets was in its infancy and now there's so much information and you don't really know, you know, what to, what to really go to what's credible.  So having that credibility building, whether it's an ebook or like, like you said, you started a page. I could totally see where you're coming from the blog. I feel like it's a lot of effort with potential, you know, not exactly a lot of, if there's not output from the blog, you'd be like, why am I doing all this? This is a lot of  Brittany (9m 40s): Work. Totally, exactly. And what's good about Instagram is the stories too, where people can really get to know you as an individual and see that behind the scenes. So when I was renovating properties, it's not fun all the time, you know? So I try to show all the ups and downs and, and get in bed to, to invest in. Cause that's relatable. Cause it's the truth about it. It's not all fun all the time and highlight reels. It's actually, no, this is real life and this is hard. So I think, I think that's, that's a good way to go about it, to just be your authentic self and not trying to be any, you know, like show, tell people what your goals are, what you're trying to do and, and just grow your network that way.  And people can really start to relate to you.  Jesse (10m 22s): Yeah. And I think there is something about Karabakh Backman, who was, who was on the, the show last year. She does, you know, has DIY projects as well. I think there's something about just humans in general, when you see the before and afters, regardless of it's, you know, weight loss, or if it's a real estate fix and flips, there's something about that that were like, it's satisfying seeing that. So I think like you hit a perfect niche where, you know, you have a education, you have investments that you're doing, but you're also seeing a product and what it potentially could be  Brittany (10m 52s): Totally. And it's, it's that transformation like any good movie or story or anything it's like, the character is not the same at the beginning as they are end, but you know, it's that real life situation and people are kind of looking for, for some somebody to connect to. And that's why we have our little drugs as real estate investors, I think, cause it's, it's difficult to stay motivated all the time when things aren't going always the right way or, or you want to be able to celebrate your wins with people. And yeah, I think it's a really good way to do it.  Jesse (11m 20s): Yeah. I have a mentor of mine that he's always saying, you know, tell, you know, teach in stories and explain in stories and when you really grasp it, you're like, wow, it does, you know, when you hear somebody talking like that, you initially, you know, you're engaged because like you said, it's a journey. I don't know if it's, I think it's just a human tendency. So you start down this path of doing DIY projects, maybe for listeners, you could pull one of the, maybe not the first one, but a one in the past that you did, that was kind of your first foray into that world.  And what were some of the challenges during that time?  Brittany (11m 59s): Yeah. So lots of the renovation stuff was, and I would go out. So even during the power engineering job, I'd drive four hours out to a property and then stay there over the weekend, renovate it and then drive back home like four hours back. It was a lot, but it was, it was something that I just, you know, is that sacrifice you kind of honestly have to make if you're a new investor and you're just trying to get in the game. It's like, okay, do I have to, because a lot of people also get stuck in an expensive market. So I was looking outside of the market just to see, okay, what makes sense?  This, this house cost $40,000 and it's going to bring in 1200 a month. So, you know, that's go for that. And it was kind of just always looking, not knowing exactly all the answers, but, but finding the ones where the numbers did make sense and then being able to, so it was kind of going and Burr was the main strategy at that time. I've moved more into the commercial real estate stuff now, but, but with the single families, it was all bird projects. So it was get in there, renovate them, build up that equity and then rent it out, pull out that money and then move it on into the next one.  But a lot of these projects too, it was just, you know, how can I make this work? There's always rope, roadblocks and things problems happening. So it's okay. It can get a mortgage for this $40,000 property. But I asked a whole ton of banks and they said, we can't give you a mortgage for this. These are the reasons. But what I can do is give you a personal line of credit for $75,000. I think it was. So it was a $75,000 credit they gave me. And so I was able to purchase the property and get a renovation costs and then refinance after that. So it was, it was good.  Like there's just, I feel there's always a way there's always a partner bank or someone else to talk to, to get the project moving forward. Yeah.  Jesse (13m 39s): I think if, you know, even one of the deals we're doing right now, we're raising capital for, and you know, even when it's on the goal line, you've closed or sorry, your all the deal sort of the APS, the purchase and sale agreements finish, you have your closing date everything's should be smooth sailing. And then there's always something, oh, we have an encumbrance, oh, there's a lien. Oh, we just did title search. And I think it's as investors, you do that once, twice 20 times, you start just, you know, that one thing you can expect is that there's going to be something that comes up that you're going to have to handle.  And if you can't do that, you're probably in the wrong industry  Brittany (14m 12s): And it just gets easier over time. It's like those problems. Cause I think back to those days renovating the property and it was so frustrating, you know, learning how to do these renovations and all this stuff. And then all this pro tenant ruin this flooring or something like that. And then it's so, so overwhelming. And, and then, and then you look back at where we're at now and those problems are small, but you can't see it when you're in it. So I think that's just important for people to know if you're just starting out or you know it, and it's just new, new levels, new problems all the time.  Professional problem solving problems. Yeah, exactly.  Jesse (14m 49s): I was having this like joke or debate with a few of my buddies and we were talking about just, you know, what you would leave for your kids. And something came up, would you leave a property to your kid? And, and we were talking about smaller prop properties if you had a kid. And I was like, somebody brought up the idea of it being a gift. And I was like, honestly, you give a rental property with a bunch of headaches as a lesson to your kid. Not as a gift,  Brittany (15m 14s): That's a good plan because  Jesse (15m 15s): I was, I mean, it was the same for me at, at, you know, 19 20, 21, maybe a couple of years older where you're learning how to do things that you would otherwise not have had to do. What's a S what's a C trap. Why am I doing, why am I mudding? Like everything to do with actually fix, fixing up? Because the reality is if you buy single family houses in the beginning, you are doing things that you can outsource as much as you want at that point. You're, you're going to actively do things in the property. And it sounds like for you, you took it to the next level and you're actually doing the brewer strategy and like going in with the idea, I'm going to add value to this and refinance.  Brittany (15m 52s): Exactly. Yeah. So how has,  Jesse (15m 55s): How has your portfolio, or what you're doing now, you mentioned commercial real estate. How has that evolved over the years, Brittany?  Brittany (16m 3s): Yeah. So got up to, you know, a few single family duplexes and then the last purchase was apartment building. So 27 doors now, and those are all in Canada. So those it's been great. It took a while to get the process of handing everything over to property management and getting bookkeepers. But I read a book called who not how, I don't know if you've heard of that one. Dan Sullivan. I think Dan Sullivan's author Benjamin Hardy. Yeah. So I love that book and that really changed my mindset along with some mindset coaching and stuff like that.  So it's just kind of getting myself, cause I kind of did get stuck in this DIA DIY mentality. And I was like, I just love the work. I'm going to do this every day. But I was kind of just in my comfort zone, but I, I always had this in the back of my head. Like, no, I want to expand. I want to do more. I want to scale, but it's really hard to scale when you're and I was tying myself to the property cause I was building myself into this job of having to do renovations to the property completely. So I was living there. I was like sleeping on the floor and all the drywall dust.  And I was like, okay, this isn't working for me anymore. It was awesome at the time I was so glad I got started in that and learned so many lessons, but it got to a point where it just, you know, I just had to make a mindset shift and I was reading who, how do mindset coaching and all this. And, and it wasn't what I wanted. I was telling myself that, but it wasn't actually truly what I wanted because the main goal in real estate was that time and location freedom. And I wasn't, I wasn't doing that for myself because I was just doing renovations all the time, every day. So I still like to do the DIY stuff and I love that kind of work.  I love being hands-on, but that's more of a hobby now for me, rather than just my main real estate investing strategy. So, but it was really curved. Did Joe or good too, I guess. I don't know. It's kind of funny. It's like when you started real estate and then it was really difficult and then you get to a plateau like, oh, everything's easy. And then it's like, I don't want to scale. And then you could try to get to the next level. So that's kind of what I've been transitioning into, but it's been, it's been awesome. So yeah,  Jesse (18m 9s): I, I think it's for people that have been successful too, it's like everybody, or nobody's immune to feeling comfortable. And even though your comfort in flipping houses, might've been way out of somebody else's comfort zone because they hadn't gotten to that level or maybe didn't want to, you know, that wasn't something they wanted to do, but then you get to that level and you continue to do it for a while. And then yeah, like you said, you get comfortable and you have mentors or coaches to constantly push you and be like, well, what do you really want to do? And I, I totally hear your point of, you know, we talk about freedom and not having a job.  And then all of a sudden we're busy. We're the busiest person we know.  Brittany (18m 45s): I think, I always think it'll always be that way because you get to this point for a reason because you are that way and you're like, let's go, that's progressing, moving forward and, and the trial, and then you just start to, you know, want to do more bigger projects, but you want to be able to have the choice of it. I think that's where it,  Jesse (19m 4s): Yeah, it was just reminds me of the matrix, the illusion of choice. Yeah. So the 27 doors in the great white north tell, tell us about  Brittany (19m 13s): Them. Yeah. So mostly in Saskatoon is kind of the main hub. So I have a few duplexes out there and then kind of just went all surrounding areas where the cashflow made sense because it was just in, and I always tell people this because people do get really stuck, especially Canadians, I think, cause they're such expensive markets like Toronto or Vancouver. And then you really have to kind of look into those other areas like Saskatchewan, cause there's lots of industry there there's, you know, tons of renters and not a ton of nice places to, to rent.  So that was kinda my thought process behind that. It's like, okay, create this really nice rental in this smaller area, but it's, there's never a problem with vacancy and there's no appreciation, so that's the trade, right? Like there's a little bit through the forced appreciation with the renovations and then a little bit of, you know, passive appreciation as well with the market, but it's not a ton. So it's a different strategy between Vancouver and in Toronto and those types of areas, but then still it's solid cashflow. Yeah.    Yeah. So I think that was kind of the thing. It was just kind of looking at these smaller centers, seeing where there is heavy industry, but a lot of the workers, like for example, the apartment building, that's 14 units, there's a ton of transient workers. So they're there for maybe a year or two and they don't want to buy a house because why would they buy a house if they're not going to be there forever? So they're kind of just not committed to buying a house, but they will pay top dollar for rent, like same as city prices, but you know, could buy the apartment building cost 450,000. So for units, and then, you know, now some of the bachelor units are getting, I think it's 850 rent for a bachelor unit.    So yeah. But yeah, and then it takes care of all of it too. So now I'm just like, yeah, free.    Jesse (21m 4s): It's so true though. Like the 450,000 and like, you know, you, you move into some markets and that's how much it is a unit. Like you go certain, especially smaller multi-family in Toronto. It's I tell people that come on the show that if they're from New York, they can kind of understand if they're from San Francisco, any of those really extremely hot markets, Vancouver and Toronto would be in that same category. I'm curious. So last time I was at west, it was no boarding out in Whistler, so I didn't get a chance to stop and, and in Saskatoon, but I'm curious out, out in Western Canada, are we starting to see more manufactured housing that, you know, everybody in the states that comes on my show has either something to say about manufactured housing or is that investing in it?    Brittany (21m 49s): Hmm, no, I don't really do much of that now, especially right now I'm kind of focused actually more on the U S market. So I haven't really been that involved in actually dosing actually.    Jesse (22m 1s): Yeah. Right on. So for yourself, I mean, just on that point, looking at investing in the states, what are, what are some of the opportunities you're looking at right now and what do you think, you know, we have in store in the next year or two, just in, in that regard and opportunities?    Brittany (22m 17s): Yeah. Well I'm really, really excited right now because so through, you know, actually through social media and online and everything I got on bigger pockets podcast. And so that was a few years ago now, but I created some really awesome connections and, and really great friends. Some of my best friends, I met through bigger pockets and going to a Maui mastermind that Brandon Turner hosted. So he just kind of picked 20 people out of his fall or people that he was following on Instagram or whatever created this little mastermind group. And that's where I made some really amazing friends.    And, you know, I have, I started to focus this year, just on my strengths. What am I really good at? And you know, my reach through Instagram and everything like that and partnering with these expert operators because ADA Osborne, which is where I'm at right now, I'm in Boise, Idaho working with AGA Osborne. And he's an incredible operator and industry leader in self storage. So they have, you know, over a million and a half square foot of storage right now and they're just rapidly expanding their portfolio. So I'm kind of on the acquisition side of it.    It's, you know, reaching out to brokers and my Instagram audience and everything, looking for self storage facilities to either do value, add projects with or development site as well. We're working on a big development hero in Boise. So that's going to be started right away. And I'm just really excited about it. So being on a team, cause I was always, you know, focused on is working on like, oh, like kind of doing, I was like DIY everything, all, all of it. But now what I realized is what I enjoy doing.    What I like doing is the collaboration and working with these incredible operators, they already have all their systems. They already have, you know, amazing network, like everything all sorted out. So what, what I'm doing is bringing investors into these projects and helping with acquisition side and everything too. So right now it's been like self storage, everything. So there's a ton of opportunity in that right now. What's cool too, about storage is that the fragmented market? So 72% of the self storage facilities are owned by mom and pops.    So it's funny. Cause I was, I actually had a self storage facility, I think a year ago under contracting in Canada. But what I was doing is just kind of going around cold, calling a bunch of owners and just saying, you know, it's funny cause you call the number, doesn't it don't pick up. Like they don't pick up. And then once in a while they'll pick up like, hello, I'm like, oh hi, I'm looking to rent a storage unit. Oh yeah, let me just call you back. Sure. So that's not managed correctly. And then, you know, you make an offer and go from there.    So that's, that's, what's pretty cool about self storage and you know, a recession recession resistant asset class as well because even through COVID, it's just performing super strong and there's a lot of people moving and there's a lot of people downsizing at this time. So storage is very needed during this time, but it's been one of the, you know, growing asset classes the last 20 years. And there's a lot of, lot of opportunity with that fragmented market if you're able to go in and really expertly turnaround the operations.    So it's immediate value add with the existing facilities with through operations.    Jesse (25m 33s): Yeah. We're seeing a lot of, a lot of self storage. Sorry, sorry to interrupt    Brittany (25m 37s): There. Continue.    Jesse (25m 39s): Yeah, no, I was just going to say we're, we've been seeing, I think it's everywhere. I think a self storage is one of those areas that there's just a lot of attention and I think you're absolutely right. It's there's just a large percentage of mismanagement, I think where there's operations, like you said that you can immediately add value. I'm pretty sure Aja is also speaking actually quick shout out to your speaking at BP con 2021 new Orleans. It is happening. I'm speaking as well. And I'm pretty sure AIG is as well. I think he's on some sort of panel maybe talking about self storage.    So yeah. So there's that there? So as a, as a, I guess in this case, somebody that's investing from outside, cause you're on a visa. Is, is that any different in terms of how you invest? Do you ha are you creating a different structure for the investments when you go in with operating partners?    Brittany (26m 34s): Yeah. So right now I'm on a working visa. So for me it's a little bit different and I still have a company in Canada, but I'm actually employed now by Cedar Creek wealth, which is a data company. So I'm employed through them and I'm able to make my positive investments. It gets a little bit complicated. Like the syndication side is easy. Cause you can invest quite easily as a Canadian. You just have to set up your holding company and then it kind of goes through that way. And then you save on taxes, but I'm not trying to give tax advice. So that's the disclaimer, but that's how people, so I have quite a few Canadians now as I was presenting these opportunities to my audience, like quite a few of them are Canadian.    So it's just, it's, it's awesome because there is so much margin with returns, especially in storage. So I mean there's a lot of opportunity for investors as well and Canadians as well. Cause I mean, yeah, I guess people do, I'm like everybody can join    Jesse (27m 36s): These, the self storage. Cause we've, I mean, we talked a lot on the show about, you know, different syndications, a limited partner, general partner type structures, the self storage are they, are they structuring them pretty much similar to other real estate investments where you, you have an operator, you have multiple limited partners or are you doing something different?    Brittany (27m 57s): Yeah. That's pretty much how it's been so limited partnership. And then it's, it depends on the deal. So we do both right now, the development deal was structured a little bit differently, but then from the existing facilities, but yeah, it's a 60 40 split. And then we have a waterfall structure after the investors for this specific deal, it was after 120% return. And so the investors get their returns and then it splits the waterfall structure happens.    So it's turns from a 60%, the LPs to 40% of LPs. And then yeah,    Jesse (28m 34s): I have a, basically a preferred return built in and with each, each IRR or each percentage return, you have a different split for, for    Brittany (28m 43s): Exactly. And we're getting into it cause so AAJ has not done a ton of syndications that he just recently started to cause they're rapidly growing their portfolio and have so much on the go. And there's so much opportunity right now. So that's when it pretty much just started with the syndication side right now. And that's where my role has kind of been as well. So it's just kind of a whole new thing where we're, we're getting all, we're trying to get all of these investors in because it's so fun to be, you know, providing these opportunities to people.    So I've, I've had a lot of fun with that as well because you know, starting my Instagram page too, I never thought I'd be in a position where I could like provide these opportunities to people and it's like, wow, this is crazy. You're like I have the funnel. I know do these massive deals together. So yeah. Yeah. Definitely fun. Yeah,    Jesse (29m 35s): No, that's really cool. And I think the, just the private placement or the exempt market has been blowing up, it's always, I mean, it's been a big part of the market. I don't think a lot of people that aren't in our industry or say the movie industry or oil and gas realize how so much money is raised through just private placements and, and that's the market that oftentimes that we're dealing with. But I think it's something that is really blowing up. I know for, you know, Canadians the fact that we're hearing about syndications and more and more people doing them up here when we are pretty conservative, when it comes to investing, I think is just kind of an illustration of that.    So in terms of, you said you're in Boise right now in terms of the geography that you're investing in right now, is it focused on one specific market or are there a number of markets that you're looking at?    Brittany (30m 24s): Oh, looking all over, especially with storage, there's opportunity all over the country. So looking for a population in a that's growing 30,000 people plus, so kind of looking at that. So there's lots of options there, but yeah, we're kind of all over focused in Texas, Oklahoma city, Kansas city. Boise's an awesome market. That's where new development project is and it's just growing like crazy, so super hot markets and, you know, looking for that.    And then we, we have a lot of different ways. So I'm, I'm getting actually a lot of people sending me deals through Instagram, we've been in and we're looking for a storage facilities, 60,000 square feet plus, and you know, so and value add. So if there's any problems that we can solve, we're pretty good at solving those problems. And then we're able to turn them around pretty quickly. So that's kind of what we're looking, we're open to really any market, but as long as we, you know, we go in and do our deep dive of course, but it's, that's kind of the general criteria.    Jesse (31m 26s): Nice. So I can only imagine your inbox is just probably hammered on, on Instagram.    Brittany (31m 31s): I know all the VA's and that's like the other part of it. Cause I need to, you know, I'm in the phase of just hiring people out to help with all the organization of everything as well. So that's been really fun cause I'm used to doing everything on my own, but like this past year it's been definitely awesome to have this team around me and people on my side helping me out and to your point, who not, how not, how exactly changed everything    Jesse (31m 58s): Point there, the team, what is the, what does the team look like right now in terms of the investments that you're doing? So, you know, AIJ, you know, in storage, for example, you know, there's the analytical, there's the operator, there's the market like where do you fall in that? And you know, who are your indispensable team members? You don't have to say their names, but just kind of the roles they do.    Brittany (32m 19s): Yeah. So I mean the ADA's team is 35 plus people. So there's definitely a lot, but then there's the construction manager, acquisitions manager and myself, I'm kind of helping with the acquisitions and then syndication side. So that's kind of been my role and just kind of, you know, getting out cause we do a lot of on the education side as well. So there's an inner circle and you know, there's a lot of ways and that's the other part of it too, because once we get so many deals coming into us, maybe they don't exactly meet our criteria, but we're able to completely analyze them and help other investors out.    If there's people who want to buy these, maybe a smaller facility, that's less than 60,000 square feet. So there's a lot of opportunity in that as well, sharing these extra deals kind of with it, that investors. So, but yeah, there's, there's a big team. They're really incredible with their operations and they have everything super streamlined. So taking Wilbur can flip them round super quick and get things on the operation side happening really fast. Very    Jesse (33m 19s): Cool. So we're, we're almost coming up to the time here, but before we, before we kind of get into four questions, we asked every guest on the show. What I'd like to do is talk a little bit about the current environment that we've been living through, you know, from call it the last year and a half. Just what your experience has been like over this time, you know, as there been some, you know, wins or losses and what you think the opportunities over the next few years are going to be, or is there anything you're doing differently as a result of what we've experienced?  Brittany (33m 54s): Yeah, well I think for me, it all my rentals have, I had a few, you know, tenants to work with who lost their jobs here at COVID. And so helping them out, you know, get things kind of a little bit more on track with them. But other than that, everything has been pretty stable and it's been a little bit, you know, it has been a way different year for me, but not really due to COVID. It was more due to my mindset expansion and trying to get into the commercial real estate space and working with expert operators who, you know, they, they know every single little detail and I'm like, okay, I can team up with the people who already analyzing every single little detail about everything there is to know, and if I can team up and help them with, you know, what I'm an expert at, that's where I kind of want to be.  So it's been really fun connecting with these other operators in the spaces, but we're just, there is a lot of opportunity right now. There's a lot of changes happening with, in the states and everything with the 10 31 and there's all the talk of everything, but it's just kind of adjusting and pivoting and, and not being kind of intimidated, but just kind of analyzing and knowing, you know, we can mitigate a lot of risk in that way just with our experience, but yeah, yeah, for  Jesse (35m 10s): Sure. I think it's just a matter of kind of being prepared. There's really nothing we can do if, whether it comes to capital gains 10 31 exchange, which as, you know, we, we don't have here, so we're just roll our eyes. Okay. You're going to lose it potentially. Very cool. So Britney, we ask guests on the show, we've touched on some of them, but pretty much four questions, pretty, pretty softball questions, everybody at the end of the show. So if you're game for that, I throw them at you.  All right. One thing that you know now in your career that you wish you knew when you got started at what was a young age of 18.  Brittany (35m 50s): So I think starting to build that credibility for yourself, you know, getting out there, building your network. I think that was a huge for me and I didn't see it at the time, but now I can definitely see how beneficial that is. So getting out there and starting building your network, you know, there's so many places you could go online and start posting in groups and everything. Even if you're a new investor, just get started now because it's intimidating posting. If you feel like you don't know what you're talking about yet, it's really hard to post. Cause you're like, feel awkward. Like, oh, I'm not an expert yet, but just start as soon as you can because people kind of connect to you no matter what stage you're at.  Jesse (36m 27s): So you touched on it a little bit earlier. I think everybody's on the same page when it comes to mentorship, especially in our space, but your views on mentorship and maybe in the context of, you know, younger people getting in the industry, you know, what would you say to them?  Brittany (36m 42s): You have to prove yourself because I think there's a lot of people that just take, take, take, they want one while all these things, but you really have to get out there and provide. So for me, you know, when I was starting, my, I didn't even have a thousand followers, I don't think. And I was posting on Instagram listening to bigger pop cause I was talking to my mentors and saying, oh, listening to BiggerPockets. This is what I learned on this episode, tag run and take Josh or David or whoever was hosting at the time and, and, and try to provide value for them by just, you know, shutting up their work and being like, okay, you guys should buy their books.  You guys should do this to my little audience that I had at the time. But then that was kind of gaining this attention. And I was just working really hard every single day and mentors and people, they can see that they can see the people who are really trying willing to take advice and actually implement it and put it into action. But mentors, mentorship for me has been everything. And I have a lot of really awesome people on my side, but it's through that hard work that they're, they're going to want to help and continue to. Yeah,    Jesse (37m 39s): For sure. I mean, especially with the social media now, if you're a champion of something that you find interested at, first of all, I think it's shines through, you know, if you're excited about it, but also just with social media, you're able to connect directly with that person. You know, it's something where, you know, 10 years ago, if you really liked a book, you could call the author, but now you kind of, you have everything at your fingertips if you want to take advantage of it. Totally. So in terms of, so question number three for you here, you already mentioned who not how, but is there any other resource or book that you, you know, you're using that you'd recommend to any of the listeners?  Brittany (38m 16s): Yeah. Huna has a really good one, crushing it in apartments and commercial real estate by Brian Murray. He was another mentor of mine and a really awesome friend. He's just the best. So that's been one of my favorite books and that really started to change my mindset from single family to commercial real estate. And I do suggest, you know, getting cut cause it takes a long time. Right. So I read that book two years before I bought my first commercial building, but it was always in the back of my head, like, okay, you know what we're going to get started, but just like getting in that mindset sooner rather than later.    Right    Jesse (38m 48s): On. All right. My favorite question, first car, make and model. What are you strolling around Saskatchewan with?  Brittany (38m 58s): Well, I had a Ford, 1995 work van. So that was that that's a good one because that's like a vehicle plus a house. So, and having just sleep in that for years. So yeah, be creepy if I was driving it, but I guess it's a normal    Jesse (39m 15s): Vehicle and Northern Canada. Awesome for listeners, Brittany, obviously. I mean, you're a Google search away. Like I always say on the show, but if people want to connect with you or see what you're doing, see what you're up to in terms of investment, anything really, what's the, what's the best place that they can go to? W we'll put a link in the show notes.    Brittany (39m 40s): So investor, girl grits, my Instagram page, that's where I post most of my stuff. And then my website, Brittany arneson.com.    Jesse (39m 48s): My guest today has been Brittany Arneson Brittany. Thanks for being part of working capital. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse F R a G a L E, have a good one.  Take care. 

Mark E. Rose is a CEO of Avison Young Commercial Real Estate. He manages all strategic, financial and operational activities of this full service commercial Real Estate firm, which just so happens the company Jesse works for. After holding executive positions at two globally publicly traded commercial Real Estate firms, he served as CEO of Grubb & Ellis from 2005 to 2008 and was previously a Chief Operating Officer and Chief Financial Officer of the Americas for Jones Lang LaSalle also known as JLL.  In this episode we talked about: Mark's Background  Leading a global real estate firm Diversity, Inclusion and ESG The Investor perspective in Real Estate So called “prop-tech” The health of Real Estate industry Coworking and Flex Space Interest rates and inflation Mentorship Useful links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-e-rose-b1447724/ https://www.avisonyoung.com Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Welcome to working capital I'm Jesse for galley. And my special guest today is mark eeros. Mark is the CEO of Avison young commercial real estate.    He manages all strategic financial and operational activities of this full service commercial real estate firm, which just so happens to be the company I work for. Mark joined Avison young after holding executive positions at two globally, publicly traded commercial real estate firms. He served as CEO of Grubb and Ellis from 2005 to 2008 and was previously chief operating officer and chief financial officer of the Americas for Jones Lang LaSalle also known as JLL. Mark, how are you doing today?    Mark (1m 1s): Let's go ahead. Well, Jesse, good to be with you.    Jesse (1m 3s): Yeah, it's great. It's great to have you on, we were just chatting. You're now based in Chicago right now, where you're, where you're coming from. How's everything going down there given the last year and a half? Well,    Mark (1m 16s): You know, the good news is the USA has really driven vaccinations to a pretty high level. We are actually residents of Florida, so that was a COVID feet free state to be in for most of most of the winter. So that was all good, but things are getting better as I'm traveling around the country. I've spent some time in Texas. I've spent some time in New York already, and again, the great news is the things are getting better.    And if you want, you know, if you want to be vaccinated, you can in the U S are vaccines available for everybody    Jesse (1m 55s): Right on. Yeah. I think the takeaway for us too, is things are moving in the right direction, starting to get the first vaccines and honestly have to say in Toronto, we're a little jealous north of the border, seeing us seeing Florida and kind of the, the approach they've taken. But at the end of the day, you know, we live where we live. So mark, what we typically do with guests that come on is talk a little bit about your background in real estate, how you got into the industry. I know you got in at a fairly young age, so for listeners that don't know, maybe we could talk a little bit about that and then kind of take us to where we're at today.    Mark (2m 31s): Sure. Probably the, you know, the driver honestly was being in university of 16 and coming out so early, you know, into public accounting, New York started to work for a lot of real estate clients and really got the bug and fell in love. And, you know, at that point, the person that hired me out of school moved over to the bridge Cole pension fund Reed brought me with again at an early, you know, you know, at a young age.    So over there at 23 and by 26, I was the CEO of the company and writing some strategies that are read across an ocean in the late eighties, you know, yielding 3% with CapEx of, you know, 50 plus million needed that that really should be sold and liquidated. When, when back in England you could repatriate the money and put it to work at 14% risk-free in their own currency at that time.    So it was a pretty simple, pretty strategic view to real estate made sense, took British called pension funds team out of us real estate in the early nineties, which bodes very, very well for them. And then that turned into a career where just loved the business, started my own company, sold it to Jones, Lang wooden, and then merged and, you know, led from the U S side, you know, for JLW the merger to create JLL on March 11th, 1999 from there pretty simple move to Chicago was chief operating officer, chief financial officer, chief strategist, you know, at JLL for the Americas, ran the Canadian business for them.    And 2005 had the opportunity to put Robin Ellis back on the New York stock exchange, raise a hundred million for that bring in 400 people, sold that company in 2007 and started working on merging these Canadian provincial companies called Avison young. And from that point on, it's been history    Jesse (4m 47s): Right on. So I've always wanted to ask you this. And I should pause to note for listeners out there. You know, Avison young is a, is my company is the company I work for. So if you hear the saying your boss's boss, I think mark, you know, we run a different scheme here in brokerage, but that'd be the answer to that. I've always wanted to ask you starting university at 16, what's going on there?    Mark (5m 11s): Well, it was a mess. It was a matter of starting early as early as kindergarten and skipping a grade. And I, I would just say this. I had no issues being sick, being 16 in university. I did have a bunch of issues being 13 in high school. Those are pretty formidable years. And when you're going up against, you know, 18 year old seniors, it's, wouldn't recommend it for everybody.    Jesse (5m 41s): It reminds me of the Malcolm Gladwell. You know, most hockey players in Canada are born in January and February. And I'm just imagining starting university trying to compete with, with gents four years older than you.    Mark (5m 53s): Well, you know what, that didn't turn out so bad because I, you know, as you know, I would, you know, played D three hockey and my freshmen, my freshman year, I was 5 10, 1 55. And my sophomore year, I was 6, 2, 2 30. So went from a fairly flea footed center to having to go back to defense because I had to retrain my whole body with that sort of, you know, with that sort of growth with that said, no one touched my goalie.    Jesse (6m 26s): Yeah, well it reminds me too. Of, we went to high school with Stevie stamp goes, he was a year, a year before me and came into high school very, very tiny under size. Everybody said, no chance, no chance this guy's going to make it anywhere. And you know, the rest is history, but left high school a lot, you know, in different shape for sure. So when you first, when you were at Grubb and Ellis and taking the company public at that point, how much experience did you have in the industry? You know, we talked with Mike Emory who was on the show about how one of the most rewarding and stressful times of his life was taking allied public.    Well, what was that experience like as, as a pretty young guy?    Mark (7m 8s): Well, first you had, you know, I really started with a public company, so the British coal pension funds were read. And so 1987, I was brought in to take a quasi public read fully public, you know, so there was an awful lot of learning and that was 1987. We did have the stock market crash that then scuttled, you know, the public process, you know, at that moment that it, but it turned out to be a blessing. And I would just say Jesse, that I, you know, very, very comfortable.    I have been more in the public domain than I've been in the private domain. And one of the reasons why we wanted to keep Iveson young private was to build a culture based company and to have a private partnership where people own something together and put their imprint together. Public companies are great companies, they just are structured a certain way. And you have to have a top-down approach because, because you're not only need to govern, but you need to be able to report out earnings on a quarterly basis.    And that just mandates a certain amount of structure. So really the Avison young piece was in some ways, the first time I was in the PRI you know, you know, the private domain and, you know, I, I just don't see a whole lot of difference other than, you know, a bit more flexibility and the ability to drive a particular strategy that we were looking for, again, as I said, you know, a more collaborative,    Jesse (8m 45s): Yeah, fair enough. So moving to Avison young today, you know, it's been a, a trying year and a half, the, the company that you've built here recently has gone globally. Maybe you could talk a little bit about how, you know, the process of taking a company with the geographical footprint of ax and, you know, multiplying that. Yeah.    Mark (9m 8s): Well, again, you know, let's just say it was a passion of mine because again, growing up in the us at JLL working and running the Canadian businesses and the south American businesses, but starting out in Europe, particularly in the UK for British coal, and then for JLW having exposure to Europe, into Asia, it was really a passion and an understanding of the power of platform, but in a specific way.    So the specific way is it gets very, it's very difficult if you think about it, to get provincial collaboration from east to west Western Canada. Now think of that Eastern Western Canada multiply it by, by the U S Mexico, south America, moving over to Europe. And what you realized is if, and when you can acknowledge that a global company can build an umbrella set of belief, systems of honesty and integrity, collaboration, empathy, and growth, and let that culture drive the business.    Then it gives you the opportunity to let the sub cultures that are around the world in every different country rise up to their highest potential. And what that gives you is something that we talk about every day, which seems to me sometimes that w w it took the industry a little longer, you know, for those of us who understood it for decades, that is your diversity, right? So it's not just gender or racial diversity, but it's gender diversity, racial diversity, diversity of culture and country.    And so when you do expand, you take best practices around the world. We just think that makes for a better company.    Jesse (11m 11s): Yeah. Kind of like, you know, diversity of ideas, diversity of background geography, like you said, in addition to all those other areas, what do you think is the reason that commercial real estate in general has taken longer to adopt those aspects of, of culture,    Mark (11m 32s): Easy, very emotional asset class. And it's an asset class that has been governed by a specific demographic for a very, very long time. Family owned businesses, institutional businesses, as we all know, it's been predominantly white male driven, and there was no reason to change. Right. You know, again, if, if you have the sameness of, of leadership on something that's quite emotional, everybody's dream as to touch feel and own real estate, we have witnessed where folks didn't want to necessarily let everybody in, but that is changing for sure.    And we've got great leaders out there. I, I see a business, a, you know, an industry that's maturing day by day, you know, and so that that's, you know, you know, that's just something that it takes time, it's change management, it's Trent it's transformation, right. And the transformation, you know, I look to probably we'll see the next change in the next, I would have said five to seven years, pre COVID probably three to five years left post COVID where a certain group of leaders will probably leave the industry as a far more diverse, a far more culture-based set of groups who are tech savvy, ESG savvy, you know, will start to fill positions.    And I think that's our next leg up    Jesse (13m 12s): On that point of ESG. It means a lot of things to a lot of people. I think, you know, a lot of people have started hearing that term only in the last little while. W what does that mean to you?    Mark (13m 23s): Well, first of all, if you haven't been bit paying attention to ESG for years, again, you would have done that at your peril, but what it means to us are some basics of this evolution in this maturity that we're talking about. The quite frankly, I thought we really got to a strong foothold late 20, 19, early 20, 20, only to have, COVID sort of push this aside a little bit, but ESG to us is climate change.    It's sustainability, it's culture, it's DNI or DEI. So diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so the things that we're doing and the things that we care about, you know, and obviously since you're, you know, a valued colleague here, you see this all the time. We were stating a long time ago, that open plans were very good for the CFO to reduce the amount of your occupancy footprint to save money.    But the open plan was not particularly comfortable for top talent, you know, unbelievable talent that might've been suffering from mental wellness issues, you know, saying anxiety that needed to be in a different place. Obviously we have been attacking racial and social injustice, and the fact that there's been a lack of diversity, both from agenda and a racial point of view, but I would also throw in that you have the disabled okay.    And our, and our LBGTQ colleagues, you know, we're really, really starting to come together. And all of that falls under ESG, obviously from a sustainability point of view, we have been working on, on that I would say for four or five decades, but once we started to put names, labels, and awards to it, well, buildings green, you know, green initiatives, lead certification, putting labels to it really have allowed it to take form as people aim for recognition for doing the right thing.    But quite frankly, it's been here for a very long time. It just needed to be moved along. Add to that, that carbon neutrality now is just a tantamount to say, you know, to saving this planet. So in our European business, we've already signed up to carbon neutral 2030. I think north America will be slightly behind that whether we adopt 20, 40, or 2050, that's a conversation that's going on, but we will adopt, we have signed up to support the Paris Accords.    We know that we need to make the difference with building better buildings, managing better buildings, making sure that we ourselves are, you know, are executing to try to keep temperature and climate change under, you know, the 2% increase in these are things that are just critically important to work on. But again, in there is also, let's not forget about people and the people, part of ESG is as important, or we write about it.    We talk about it all the time that nobody wakes up or comes into the office perfect. Every day, you have to be mindful of that. It's normal, it's part of life. And so when you're able to embrace everybody's difference, then you start to build a great culture.    Jesse (17m 13s): That's great. And in terms of ESG, we hear a lot from the company perspective, you know, companies talking about it, and I've heard you speak about the investor's perspective and, and making the point that those things aren't disconnected. W w what did, what do you mean by that in terms of having alignment with investors, not just looking specifically for, you know, the dollars and cents, but understanding that ESG has an impact on those fundamentals.    Mark (17m 40s): Yeah, well, investors and real estate investors in companies, obviously Larry Fink and BlackRock have been very aggressive to promote what they think since they are representing many investors in many companies, you know, but it needs to be heard everywhere. And, you know, our investors are better when we sign up to, as we have to ESG disclosures in our financial statements.    So people can judge us and look to us for first of all, that we've made the commitment, but then what have we done? Are we measuring it? This is now in our financial statements. And that's where again, the world is moving to more measurement, more disclosure, so that investors can choose the companies. They're not, not only making money, but they're also making money and improving the world. And I don't believe those are mutually exclusive concepts    Jesse (18m 42s): Right on. So speaking a little bit about, you know, the commercial real estate being a little slow to adopt certain things the last year and a half as GE has basically pushed a lot of people that otherwise wouldn't use technology to the extent they do now using it that way, in terms of real estate and prop tech, what are you seeing that, you know, you're, you're really finding, encouraging in the industry and where do you think we're going technologically, when it comes to commercial real estate?    Mark (19m 13s): So there are a few things in there. The first thing is if you haven't focused, your company transformed your company to be tech enabled or tech led, you are falling behind everybody else. I would say not because we've done it Avison young, but during the pandemic, when revenues were down, because our clients really had put the pause button on transactions and projects that w that, that, that we were building, it gave us the opportunity to focus all of our energy, all of our initiatives into building the industry's leading data platform, data aggregation, predictive analytics, artificial intelligence, over that, as we then continue post the acquisition of trust and September to add the digitization of the visualization of the transaction process, building that into the core powerhouse of Avison young, which is called avant.    And so all those things are happening now, there's far more to come because there are other back office applications, lease administration, things of that sort, but the transaction quite frankly, is going to give way to top talent with relationships, using platform, consultative skills and technology. And that the day of just pure relationship brokerage is coming to an end.    But I want to encourage everybody that doesn't mean brokerage comes to an end. That doesn't mean that transactions come to an end. Our clients are very clear on the value that they perceive and what they want, or strategy and solutions that result in transactions, not just transactions for transactions sake. The other thing here is, as we talk about it, the transformation, the understanding, the technology, we also have to be very, very mindful because you used a word that, you know, I'll tell you right now, I've gotten in trouble with this before, and I'll probably get in trouble with it here, but it's just open and honest and heartfelt to try to help folks there's prop tech and there's PropTech, okay.    Property technology that is embedded in, in your delivery system, or an idea that can transform and create value for our clients. That's awesome. There are thousands of PropTech companies where somebody has a great idea, but limited capital. I am still very concerned about those companies. I'd like to see a process where great companies and great ideas have a place to get funded and keep themselves intact and, and, and on a path to growth and profitability, because what we've seen in the marketplace is bringing great technology to clients, or if it's technology that is quote unquote acquired through prop tech at, at, you know, at one of the end-user levels, it is only as good as the technology sustaining itself and improving itself day by day, too many companies start to sign up a few key clients, but it's still not enough revenue to keep it alive.    And the worst thing that we can do in, in this industry. And certainly the worst thing that we can do as a service provider is bring something that may seem really sharp and really good. But if it's not sustainable, if it can't sustain itself, either through capital or revenue growth, then we're really not helping anyone.    Jesse (23m 12s): Yeah. That makes sense. If we talk a little bit about our industry as a whole right now, mark, maybe starting with the U S and Canada and, and, and kind of going global, you know, again, talking about the last year and a half, what is your view right now of the health of our industry and, and how you see this playing out over, you know, let's call it the, the short to mid term.    Mark (23m 37s): So you have to go. And I, you know, I'm going to ask the credibility for 36 years of this real estate. The real estate period is a gossipy industry. It is a soundbite industry which plays very well to the media these days, but let's take a step back. It is one of the most powerful industries that has ever been created. It is an industry, as we said, it's emotional. People want to own real estate. People use real estate.    If you look at, you know, if there are going to be 10 billion people on this planet next 50 years, if that's going to be the case, and most experts will tell you that, you know, that it is, then we need to build a million square feet of housing everyday, starting today to support that that's a heck of a safety net for the multifamily, the residential business, and clearly support. You know, if you understand the macro issues of population growth, but then you take just the basics, the office, which is the one that everybody's talking about, you know, is the office dead with work, from home work, from anywhere return to the office.    And if you've looked at cycles, and I think the one to look to, if you looked in the us after, you know, after nine 11, it took two years for people to want to come back to trophy buildings. It took two years for people want to be an upper floors. It, it took a couple of years for security to go from the pendulum swinging one way to it coming back to equilibrium. And we are probably in that same place now. And if you just look at our business and let's start short-term right now, anything industrial leasing, our capital markets hottest can be potentially even too hot, but hottest can be multi residential, really good, really, really good, and on a relative basis.    Very, very good. And it's been solid all the way through loan, servicing and debt. Solid people are doing things from that perspective. So what's down while hospitality, retail, and office hospitality. Honestly, there were probably too many hotel rooms right now. If you own a resort hotel, I think you're going to have the greatest summer that you've ever had in your life because people can't wait to get out of it. Their homes and, and resort properties are going to be in demand probably for the next 6, 9, 12 months, hospitality that's centered around the business person, probably going to take a little while to come back.    Okay, retail again, I think overplayed, there are certain areas, you know, again, dip into the U S they were over retailed. Canada was less over retailed, but there also is a change in the difference between showroom space and a fulfillment distribution and et cetera. I do expect that that takes a little bit of time yet. We're starting to see retail capital markets activity. I E some distress coming in that I think can open up the buying and selling of retail.    Although the fundamentals and leasing are still gonna take a little time. So it really comes back and brings you back to office. Long-term rock solid. We're going to have population growth. We're going to have business formation. There's already a massive increase in business. Formation. Midterm looks just like the longterm. That's great. You know what? Short term, we may have another year for people to start to figure out what does the office me, and I'm going to stay on this for, you know, for a moment we have run office space.    Office utilization has been at 40% for decades, and you would quote, unquote, have salespeople they'd come in, but they were never really in the office, but they wanted an office. But when you actually looked at the utilization of seats was 40%. Well, no manufacturer would ever run their business like that. Now I still think there's a need for people to be together. We at Avison young asked everybody to come back the Tuesday after Easter, and we're doing that because we're starting every day. We're getting a little more people back in the office so that when we hit September, most, everybody will be back with a huge caveat where the domain of occupancy used to be either the CFO for cost or the CEO for brand purpose decisions now are even more strategic.    And it's the CFO with the CEO with strategy with HR, and just think about this. Let's say that we all agreed to every Monday, everybody has to be in the office. Every Tuesday. Everybody has to be in the office. Wednesday, you can work from anywhere, be it a satellite office, a flex office. And on Thursday or Friday, you could work from home. Well, think about this. If you came, if everybody came in on Monday and Tuesday, you would have the same 40% utilization.    So I'm not sure that ultimately there's going to be a big change, except for the fact that the big change is how we're going to process this and the strategy that one size does not fit all that city by city company, by company, country, by country occupiers. Now need to say, this is what our strategy is. And we are helping many of those clients from large institutions, stout to smaller occupiers, helping them understand what those needs are.    And as soon as that happens and it's happening, it will again open up for the owners and investors to understand what the ultimate tenants needs are. And that's when everything starts to work its way through    Jesse (29m 47s): From a, a more, I guess, structural level, while we're on the topic of office. Do you see office changing from term lengths? You know, we, we've always seen 5, 10, 15 years as the status quo, even pre COVID. We've started to see more younger users, more youthful companies want flexibility there. Do you expect that that trend to continue or if not get kind of shoved into high gear as a result of the lockdown?    Mark (30m 17s): Yeah, I think, you know what I think in the short term, you will still see headquarters offices and main hubs will still be 5, 10, 15 year leases, depending on what the strategy is. So longer-term leases. I still believe that there will be a subset of, let's just say, older school thinking that other satellite and expansion offices will look like what they've always looked like.    I do think that you're going to see flex used more, the, the hub and spoke thing. I didn't, I honestly didn't believe in it at the very beginning. And I don't necessarily think that's the way this, you know, that this is going to go, will, will businesses accommodate their people with a work from anywhere strategy that could involve flex, you know, touchdown stations.    Could it be that we're going to have landlords that will grant a block of space in any of their buildings for 15 years to, to an enterprise so that you could have certain employees going into a building that acts as a kind of a flex hub for you. All of these things are quite realistic. Now that's really the change. And it will come down to, again, a strategy that the occupier will use as opposed to something that's dictated    Jesse (31m 57s): And further to that. Do you find that this change, this potential change with flexibility is going to run parallel with what we've seen in coworking over the years? Or do you think it'll start crowding out the users in coworking?    Mark (32m 11s): I think that co-working suffered through a year and a half of a pandemic and people questioning whether it's a health concern or not. Okay. So I think coworking has a different view. Ultimately, everybody adjusts. So even in coworking facilities, you're going to have to adapt and adjust what the space looks like to meet the needs of people and their either their anxiety to come in or their once they're in their flex office, I think is something different right back to your question, least lanes.    I mean, like I said, it could be a 15 year lease where you have rights to different buildings in an owner's portfolio, or you might have shorter lease terms with flex arrangements, but I see flex being more of a driver than coworking going forward.    Jesse (33m 12s): Just the, the point on retail, you know, mentioned us, not surprising overbuilt Canada, a little bit more European, but still overbuilt. Do you buy into this idea that there's going to be that creative destruction through, you know, repurposing, you know, older sites into either industrial or residential over the, maybe even the mid to long-term for those assets? Yes,    Mark (33m 35s): Because you have to, there's a change there, there, there there's a change because the fundamentals changed and how we distribute retail properties. And again, I'm just oversimplifying rather than going into the details, but retailers can still grow. Our retailer is going to take more showroom space or are they going to potentially increase their actual square footage, your real estate, but it'd be less showroom space, more distribution and fulfillment space that does look like it will occur.    I think that's a transition and yes, for obsolete retail, B and C malls retail, that's just not placed well for the demographic regions sitting in. Those will need to be repurposed and, you know, life sciences, storage, multi res, they're all fulfillment. These are all possibilities and really smart developers or developers are out there working on this    Jesse (34m 45s): Right on. So in terms of the last time we've had a, you know, a technical recession, whether oh 8 0 9, there was a fundamental difference in that there wasn't capital available than there seems to be capital available today. It seems we see it on the side, on the industrial side. So all these asset classes have to play within this broader economy. What are your thoughts on, you know, we're where rates are right now and keeping them as low as, as they currently are necessity or, or something that we gotta look out, look up    Mark (35m 19s): As, you know, interest rates, having a material impact on, on the real estate industry. I wish we were in to, you know, 2022 already. You know, I know everybody wanted to get out of 2020, but there's equal and equal need to get out of 2021. You're seeing year over year numbers that are significantly above the 2020 numbers. Of course they were, there was a pandemic. We shut everything down in a 20, 20, some places around the world were still shut down in 2021.    When you see the soundbites, the blips, the media clips of inflation out of control, GDP up five, 6% producer prices, more than we've ever seen. Well, yes, those are year over year numbers. Of course they were. We were down because we saw on the downside numbers we had never seen before in 2020. I think once you get to 20, 22 and 2023, you'll see that there is virtually no reason for interest rates to go up.    And it's not just because governments. Well, first of all, governments are going to be hard pressed to raise interest rates based on the amount of debt that has been pushed out there. The amount of liquidity that is in the system is certainly the most I've ever seen in my 36 years. But I also don't believe that after you get past the comparisons of a year, that businesses were shut down as opposed to a year, you know, a year where things open.    It doesn't really look that post that period that there's a ton of inflationary pressures after that. So I'm sure people will take the other side of that discussion, but I'm feeling pretty good that once we get past the initial stage of the, you know, looking at numbers that are big and surprising, which quite frankly, they are big, but they shouldn't be surprising that we will start to see that we are just not sitting in a terribly inflationary period of time.    And that will vote very, very well for, you know, for low interest rates and for alternative investments in the yields that they produce. So, which real estate is one of those    Jesse (37m 50s): Positive for us. I want to be mindful of the time mark, talk a little bit about, you know, what the future holds for Avis and young. But before we do, I just want to briefly ask you your thoughts on mentorship right now, and, and in the context of young people coming into our industry or any other industry for that matter, I can only imagine coming out of school at this time and, and trying to navigate, you know, what you're doing in your career, what are your thoughts on that and what people should be doing?    You know, if they're not already and you    Mark (38m 22s): Know what, you know, again, I'm almost sad that you're asking about is this a period of time that we should have more mentorship? I had the benefit of having a great mentor, one of the most people in the finance industry, and he was instrumental in my career and I have paid that forward ever since, even to this day, I have, I believe 16 or 17 active mentees right now, there are people who are friends and mentees who were working for competitors that I still help out.    And I'm always there for them. And obviously industry wide, you know, I've been involved with most of the organizations and their mentorship programs. So I think they should always have been there. And it shouldn't be a question whether folks should have vermin, you know, you know, a mentor program or not, Avison young, clearly has one. We believe in it. Mentorship of all mentor mentee relationships are, are part of our culture, our women's network.    You know, you know, we focus on making sure that both for gender and racial diversity, that there are mentors in place for, for everyone. You could not be doing more for your people. If you're, you know, owner and occupier, a service provider, you could not be doing more than to actually mentor your people. There's a period of time where the adage that people know what they know, and they don't know what they don't know needs to be filled in by mentors that can help people, particularly through anxious periods of the subtleties, the verbals and the non-verbals to pick up during a period of dislocation.    And there are many people who have forgotten more than others know. And I just think that again, if you weren't doing it decades ago, you should be doing it now because to your point, there is no greater time than a period of uncertainty for those with experience. And those who are, who will commit to mentor, not just be named a mentor, but actually commit to doing what you need to do to mentor somebody and get the mentee to commit as well.    It is the greatest growth driver for a person's development and their ultimate career success.    Jesse (40m 60s): Yeah, couldn't agree more. All right, mark. Well, we're kind of wrapping up here. If there's anything you want to just add here from Avison young Avison, Young's vantage point things on the horizon that you want people to know about, you know, what, what is the world at AYA having store, you know, for those in our industry and abroad?    Mark (41m 20s): Well, you know, Jesse, we've been very good of not necessarily telling anybody what it is that we're doing. We just do it. You know, everything we do is per strategy. There was a strategy built on the day we started in 2008, launching this growth plan into the teeth of the recession. There have been updates to the strategies, you know, over and over again. And I would just say, watch for more of the same from us, we still believe that there are regions that we need to expand our platform into.    There are service lines that we need to continue to fill in. If there are any gaps anywhere around the world, we are very excited about things like working with impact, which was a company started by Nelson Mandela and their commercial real estate division is now part of Avis and young in South Africa. So we've now brought ourselves sub Sahara and to go along with the north American and the European businesses or offices and soul, you'll see us expand throughout Asia.    But the focus for us is very clear. Our clients are demanding value. They will pay for value. They'll pay slightly less for commodity and consulting led and tech led approaches to solving the needs of our clients that are embedded in a people solutions business. It's been very clear what our clients want and we are going to do to deliver the data and the solutions that support the action items to then overachieve the objectives of our clients.    That's what you can be looking for. Okay. And so there's a lot more of everything you've seen us do. There's a lot more of a kind of    Jesse (43m 19s): My guest today has been Mark Rose, mark. Thanks for being part of working capital,    Mark (43m 24s): Jesse. Great to be here with you and thanks for doing this.    Jesse (43m 37s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse  F R a G a L E, have a good one take care. 

CPI Capital has developed a reliable system for investing in multi-family properties in strategic markets across the United States. Our offer to our valued Investment Partners is an opportunity to invest in income generating properties with considerable value-add prospects. With decades of real estate experience and over $100M in real estate transactions, our team understands the time and effort required to create generational wealth through real estate. Transcript: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Alrighty. Hope everybody is doing well. My name's Jess for galley. And this week I thought we would do something a little bit different. I was a guest on a show called CPI capital a little bit about my background in real estate from student rentals to assignments, condos multi-family and brokerage.    If you find that at all. Interesting, I think you're going to like this episode, I think we touched on a number of things and they had some great questions. Some of them admittedly completely caught me off guard, but anyways, I hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see, on the other side,    Ava (59s): Everyone, welcome to the Canadian passive investing show. I'm your host, Ava bene Saki, and I'm joined by my cohost August. Muniez we have another great show for you today, please, please like, and subscribe as it helps us build our channel and allows us to keep bringing you great content and expert guest speakers. Our mission here at CPI is to empower investors, to create financial and time freedom through passive real estate investing. And today we are joined by Jesse for galley.    Got it. Welcome Jesse. Welcome Jesse.    Jesse (1m 34s): Hey everybody. How's it going    Ava (1m 37s): Now? Jesse, Jesse is a commercial real estate broker and investor that started with student rental properties at the age of 19 as his passion for investing grew. He started investing in single family homes and condos. Then he transitioned into multi-family apartments. So today he focuses on operating and raising capital for commercial real estate. So we believe Jesse is going to bring immense value to our audience to make strategic investments in real estate. So Jesse, let's just jump right into things.  If you could start off by telling our viewers a little bit about your background and your involvement with real estate investments, please.  Jesse (2m 13s): Yeah, no problem. And I'll, I'll try to hit that high bar there for you guys. I got started in real estate in college or university bought my first rental property, went to a university in Waterloo. It's about an hour and a half west of Toronto. You know, if there are us listeners, it's kind of Canada's Silicon valley. So a lot of good entrepreneurial spirit out there. And yeah, my first investment property was, was wa wa was Walla, was in school. I saw that I was living with a friend that his father and him went in together on the property that I was actually living with.  So w I saw myself and friends of mine paying rent to another friend and started to realize that it was a great area to invest. And I kind of had a, somewhat of a background in that. My father who's also extremely entrepreneurial and my mom was well, they had a family friend that had a number of single family investment properties. So at a really young age, I'd always ask, you know, what does Mikey do? He doesn't have a job. What is, what exactly does he do? And that kind of got ingrained to me really young, so long story short.  That's how I got into it. This is probably now I was 19, 20 years old. So we're talking about oh 8 0 9. So you don't think of oh 8 0 9 as when you're going through it as a significant time. But looking back, obviously we know now it was a, it was a pretty historic time for the economy and yeah, I mean, going back that far, what I was doing was reading Canadian real estate magazine. If you guys remember that magazine, you know, bigger pockets I think was in its infancy, there wasn't resources, there weren't resources everywhere.  And yeah, that, that was my first, first property was a $250,000 student rental property with five female tenants that I pretended were a lot younger than me, but I really was, was young and trying to try to figure it out.  August(4m 8s): Great. Yeah. I guess timing, timing is always important rate too. You know, they say luck, isn't it. Mathematical equation is when timing meets opportunity. So you jumped on it. That's great. And also, also another item is here in Canada. I mean, a lot of information and content comes over from the, from the U S where you could buy a home in Texas or Arizona or Florida for 300,000 or 250,000. And you can rent it for around $2,000 a month. So you're, you're already cash flowing from the day one, but in, in here in Canada, especially in the larger cities, Vancouver and Toronto, their rent to value ratios are very low.  So that, and the kind of also the entry level to, to get into a single family home is very difficult as well. So talk to us about, you know, early on in your career as a, you know, as you were starting in real estate investing, how did you overcome that particular hurdle to, you know, with the, with the high mark of, you know, the high bar of entry with the low rent to value ratios and also the rigid mortgage laws, our mortgage laws are much more difficult than the U S so  Jesse (5m 8s): Go over there. Yeah, it's funny. I just jumped off my podcast with a, a mortgage commercial and residential mortgage broker. And we were talking about some of the differences with Canada and the U S and, you know, we have the portability of mortgages talk to an American foreign concept for them a 30 year fixed rate. They have that foreign concept to us. So a hundred percent to your point about Toronto Vancouver, I think, you know, I say those things together in every sentence on my podcasts that we're talking about expensive markets at that time, the property, I know what just offhand, because you always remember your first property, the gross rent was approximately 2,400, so $250,000, 2,400 in gross rent.  So, you know, if you go use a 50% rule as your expense ratio, pretty decent property, if you found those types of numbers today, especially our markets you'd jump on them. So it was still relatively affordable in certain markets outside of the, like the, the downtown cores, but yeah, a hundred percent, it was something where you really had to go look for value, adds student rentals still to this day. You know, the valuations are a little bit different. Cap rates are a little bit higher.  You can, you can find those deals, but they're becoming harder and harder to find. So, you know, whether you're in New York, you're in San Francisco, you're in Vancouver, Toronto, you really need to think outside the box. You start, you need to start looking at, you know, the 18 hour cities or the cities towns hour or two hours may be more outside of your general area. But I was lucky at the time. Well, you know, nine, there were still a bunch of deals that were still in our Canadian market. And to your second point about the mortgages, I think at the time I was in the five and a half fixed percent range.  And back then, if you guys remember 5% down was still pretty doable, five, 10% down. Now, when it came to student rentals, there was only a few banks that would lend on those. So that's where you had to start, you know, getting more creative with the financing. But at the time I think it was five or 10% down. I went to my dad and asked, so I had a little bit of cash because I worked summers. I said, listen, this is an awesome investment. Do you want to, do you want to sign on this line of credit so that I can, I could purchase it, gave him the numbers.  He said, absolutely not. You know, my, my parents were divorced. So what is, what does a kid do? He goes to his mom and says, dad's not signing this. So for me, that's, that's kind of how I got my first start. And I always tell this story because I feel like people, you know, when they talk about how they got started, you, you it's always fuzzy. How did the money happen? And I just like to say that everybody you go to the resources you have. I, you know, I didn't, don't come from a very wealthy family, but they gave me every opportunity, you know, family, predominantly immigrants, very entrepreneurial.  But what that allowed me to do was she signed on the guarantee for the, for the line of credit, which added to my down payment, which allowed me to get the space. And then when the second one came around, because I continued to invest in student rentals, then I had, you know, I had a case that the next one, when I partnered on one of them with my father, or I could say, Hey, this is, this is how the business has been doing for the last year and a half or two years. So yeah, that's, that's kind of the background and  August (8m 32s): You build that track record and you were lucky enough to have parents who helped one of your parents. And he was like, finished school, finished school, then we'll dock. There you go. And you were, you were 19 years old. So yeah, I was,  Jesse(8m 48s): Yeah, just turning, just turning 20. Like I, when I put the co the offer in, I was 19, when it finally closed, I was 20.  August (8m 57s): Great, great. And if you could expand on, when you talk about student housing, is that the building or the unit or the home is zone for student housing that you can rent it on for two regular tenants kind of idea.  Jesse (9m 9s): Yeah. So it's a good question because it used to be anything that a student occupies and then what started happening in a lot of cities in the states, and in Canada, you would have either municipalities or cities mandate that you have a student license, you know, we're all big fans of the government. And it was basically, you know, a, a tax that you had to pay to have it licensed. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't good logic for it. There would be, you know, fire code, additional things you would have to do to meet that standard.  But it was also kind of like a, you know, a, a taxi medallion system where, you know, they only would, in, in this particular case, they would only give so many of the moats. So yeah, that, that's how they were kind of categorized in Waterloo. And I know another areas in Ottawa, we have, I still have a couple student rental properties where we're towns are, are kind of talking about implementing that type of thing, but not all towns do. And yeah, so that, that's how it, you know, they'd be categorized as student rentals, some were above board and some people were doing just, you know, without the license.  August (10m 13s): Got it. That makes sense. Just getting back to your point, as far as making strategic investments, and you have to find the kind of diamonds in the rough for it to make sense here in Canada, in Vancouver and Toronto, there are deals, but they're, they're, you know, hard to come by. It's not a scalable business model. It's not somebody, you know, in the U S somebody living in Texas making a hundred thousand dollars a year and they can buy a home for 300,000 and they'd be cash flowing from day one. And, you know, if they do some small renovation and even keep the property, they can, they can, then in a few years, just repeat the same process, buy another property and continue to grow their portfolio.  It's very difficult business model to, to do here. And especially doing a part time, having a, you know, a, a, you know, a job or a profession, and then doing real estate on the, on the, on, on a part-time basis to then find those deals, to be able to be an active investor. So that's an great conversation here.  Ava (11m 6s): So we've, we've we, we learned about what started you in single family. Now, I'm, I'm curious what made you fall in love with multifamily? And when did you kind of start getting into multiple  August (11m 16s): Fell in love with it? Maybe he just likes we're  Jesse (11m 19s): We're we're madly in love. Well,  Jesse (11m 22s): What happened was w so I finished university over that time period. I, I purchased, I believe it was for single family. So these, but these were kind of spread out there. One was in Oshawa. So if you know, Ontario Schwann, Waterloo, they're complete opposite ends of Toronto. And what happened started happening is, and I'm sure you guys were aware of Vancouver was similar where pre-construction condos became a big thing, and this was 20 10, 20 11. I started to purchase those. And what, you know, a lot of people call wholesaling now, or just assigning the contracts.  I did a few times. So w what I did was I kind of kept going down the student rental path. I appreciated a decent amount on a lot of these properties, and then sold them pretty much, not all at the same time, but pretty strategically that I wanted to sell these and have a nest egg to move into the commercial space. It coincided with my job, actually moving from working with the job that I got right out of school to actually a friend of mine kept saying, listen, you'd love this real estate stuff.  You know, what are you doing in your current job? You should be in, in commercial real estate. And I finally got a job in commercial real estate for Avison young as a commercial broker. I happen to work in office leasing and investment sales, but it was kind of through that, where you start really opening your eyes to see what people are doing in different areas. You know, my partner, he also works for the company, but he also is an investor in the multi-family space. Multi-family I think the reason I gravitated towards that is it's just more accessible for the smaller investors that when they get their start, if you're going down retail office, industrial, you know, one, one or two tenants, you could really have large vacancy.  You need a lot of cash for 10 and allowances, tenant inducements. And then the other thing is in Canada. And I believe it's, it's similar in the states, whether it's Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac in the us, or it's CMHC in Canada, there, there are financing products that are more geared to apartments because it's still considered residential, even though it's five units and larger, which lender looks at that as commercial. So yeah. Accessibility for, for lending and yeah, that's, that's how I made the transition.  And we've, yeah, we've kind of focused now, just exclusively on building up the multi-family portfolio,  August(13m 44s): Right? So not only your focus as, as investing changed to multi-family commercial real estate, you, you actually switched your profession to also be involved in the commercial space as a broker. Funny enough, Ava and I were looking at a private equity firm and their principles, and just reading about their bio is, I mean, notice every one of the principals had commercial broker on the bottom of their title, even though some of them, one of them had a PhD, but he still had a commercial broker at the bottom  Jesse (14m 10s): Of their bio. It's funny, it's funny. They there's a lot of people in our industry and NAIOP is a great organization. If you're interested, especially in Canada, in commercial real estate or north America, that's, it covers all areas. But so many of the people that have started their own firms that are CEOs of brokerages or workflow, you know, workplace strategy, it's funny how further back in their career. A lot of times they were brokers or, you know, leasing specialists and really seeing real estate from the ground up.  And I think it's a good foundation as investors, or if you want to have a career in real estate. Yeah,  Ava (14m 48s): Definitely. Great. You got your license. I had my license.  Speaker 3 (14m 52s): Yeah. I couldn't wait to get rid of mine for 10 years.  August(14m 59s): So now I want to talk to you about, let me see, I had a question here for you. Oh yeah. I want to talk to you about, you know, we, we w w w in our research, we are in the space we're in, in Canada and in the real estate of real estate, private equity and, and especially thought leaders in this space who put out content, obviously you came up or you came on on our list. I mean, notice that you are a thought leader in this space. Talk to us about your connection with a bigger pockets and how that came about. Especially one of my biggest complaints with bigger pockets is that most of their content and information is, is a director is for Americans.  And a lot of people do read that information. And now have I have wrong information or information that doesn't make sense. They, they believe that 10 31 exchange exists here in Canada, or that they could, you know, part-time be real estate investors and have 20 single family homes or, or, or other also other compliance verbiage that's that's used in the us, which that doesn't mean the same thing on this at our border, and means something totally different. Something like an offering memorandum is a document provided by a broker to someone looking to purchase a commercial real estate, or an offering memorandum here in Canada is a, is a legal document as security emerges exemption that's used.  And it's a legal document. So talk to us about your connection with bigger pockets and how they came about, and what do you currently do with that group?  Jesse (16m 24s): Yeah, for sure. I think it started from, well, I was on the podcast, the BiggerPockets podcast as a guest years ago. I think that was what started the relationship. I, I really, I don't remember exactly how that relationship started, but it did then. And what it ended up happening is we, we continued communication. Obviously I used a bigger pockets as a resource. And just as a side note for Canadians that are on bigger pockets, even if you have a free account, you can go and put a keyword alerts.  And almost always, I have one keyword alert that is Canada Canadian, us Canada. So like you do get chats that are started specifically about CA Canadian investments. You're going to be pulled into those, into those strings, which, or forums, which is great the way I started doing videos for them. I think Brandon and I, we were talking, or I, I had reached out to him a little while after the podcast. And I had said, you don't, you guys don't seem to have a lot of commercial content, whether that's, you know, industrial retail office, larger apartment buildings, it seems to be focused primarily on single family and, and apartments.    And I said, what if would you guys be open to me doing videos? And he's like, I guess at the time, they're like, yeah, absolutely. It's, we're, we're missing that piece. So yeah, for a couple of years, I was doing videos on a commercial commercial real estate. That's commercial loans, private equity. You're absolutely right though. When you say that, you know, there's that us Canadian gap and a hundred percent it's, you know, you have American her Canadians thinking that they should buy us real estate and put it in an LLC. Okay.  Canada, that doesn't recognize an LLC. You know, you have a certain things, like you're saying what the offering memorandum, you keep hearing, they're raising money for 5 0 6 C offerings that doesn't exist here. So there's all these little intricacies that we need to focus on that when we, when we hear about this type of investment in the states, really need to figure out what that equivalent is up here. And that's what I think we were trying to do to a certain extent there. But like I said, ultimately, as a Canadian, there's definitely Canadians on the, on the forums there, you just kind of have to have to search for it.  But yeah, it's a, it's a really good point.  August (18m 40s): Great, awesome. Talk to us a bit also about your, your own platform. So aside from working with bigger pockets, I believe you have your own YouTube show and podcasts. Talk to us about that in the process and how you came about, you know, starting your show and how it was, how is it going? Yeah,  Jesse(18m 58s): No, it's going great. It's, it's a lot more work as you guys know, then, then, you know, you really realize when you go in, I was just a friend of mine just sent me a stat or a couple stats about podcasts. And it was, I can't remember exactly, but, you know, you know, something like 3% of people go pass episode three, you know, 50%, you know, whatever it is, it's just the consistency. I'm definitely more active on working capital. That's my podcasts. It's working capital, the real estate podcasts. You can get that anywhere, iTunes, Spotify, and the YouTube channel.    I just started putting out like a lot of people, the questions you get asked again, and again, and again, a lot of times it's just easier to make a video, send it out and say, you know, this, this answers it. I think that being on the bigger pockets, realizing that, you know, like when you go on their channel, it's like all of a sudden you have, you know, 70,000 views on something and you can't manage comments like that. So I think for me, it was just like, I didn't realize there was that many people out there that wanted this content. So I try to put stuff up on YouTube as, as much as I can, but really the focus for, for myself is more on the podcast side.    And then through there, you know, people can reach out to me, you know, hear me on the show. And if it's about investing in the future, investing in other investments that we're doing that we're raising capital for. That's where I would say the platform is, but it hasn't been formalized in, in a way where, you know, it's, it's my day job and that's, what's challenging about it. Right. You're, I'm still in brokerage and I don't think I'll ever leave brokerage completely, but yeah, that's, that's kind of where I'm at right now.    August (20m 35s): Yeah. Being a broker is like, you know, the bat, the bat sign put up in the sky when they call it comes in. You've got to go. So yeah, it's definitely a full-time    Speaker 3 (20m 44s): Gig. Yeah. Great.    August (20m 46s): Just to touch on podcast a bit more, what is the podcast mission statement? So what, what problem are you solving? What message are you getting across and what is the kind of the, the final call to action or, you know, the, the, the benefits it has not only for obviously your, your listeners, but also for yourself.    Jesse (21m 4s): Yeah. What I wanted to do is have an educational, real estate investing podcast that where we have guests on, we have them from a range of backgrounds all centered around real estate. So, you know, whether that's a cross border lawyer, whether that's a mortgage broker, whether that's talking to people that are investing in self storage, I wanted to get kind of a round picture of what real estate is and the different niches, or as my podcast guests say, if they're American niches, that drives me crazy, but the different niches in our industry. And through that, I'm what I hope to do too, is when I have people on the show and you touched on it earlier as a Canadian, even though half of the listeners are American, I try every time I can, where somebody is like, well, an FHA loan, and then, okay, well, let's just clarify from the Canadian point of view, it's this.    Or, you know, if they say something like a 30 year fixed mortgage at 3%, and I say, well, in Canada, you can do a CMHC mortgage at 1.6. They're like, that's crazy you at 1.6, because a lot of times you hear, they don't believe that our cap rates are 2.9, 3% in some areas like you're in Vancouver and guarantee some of those office buildings are sub three and they're like, well, our loans are three. It's like, no, no, no, no. Your loans are three. Are our loans are not even though it's still crazy low. So there's only all these little like variation.    So just a long, long winded way to say. What I try to do with the podcast is try to be a north American podcast where I can have Canadians and, and Americans listen to the show and, and feel that they're both getting talked to.    August(22m 36s): Great. Great. So now let's switch the conversation here. Emma has a few questions for you, but let's switch the conversation back to being a real estate investor. As we all know, eventually your real estate investors run out of their own money because they've already deployed it. Or they're looking for bigger projects and a time comes to raise private equity. Where are you at in your, in, in your business currently, are you at that stage that you're, you're raising capital and, and talk to us how that all came about and we can go from there.    Jesse (23m 6s): Yeah. So this year, or I guess the end of last year starting of this year is when I first started to raise capital for real estate. It's, it's kind of a scary thing, which I think is a good thing. If, if you are a fiduciary to somebody else and you're managing somebody else's money, I think you should party. You should be a little scared. I think that's natural that you should have a fear of making sure that you're, you're doing the right thing for your investors. So that coincided with a lot of the podcasts I listened to.    And again, the guests that I've had on my show where, you know, you get connected to masterminds where they are teaching, raising capital or fund to fund model, stuff like that. And again, it kind of goes back to your point of the offering memorandum where like, you know, we sometimes call it an information memorandum. That's more of a brokerage thing than I think a us thing. But yeah, the offering memorandum in Canada, you're, you're talking about legal documents. And the reason I bring that up is the mastermind that I was in was a us centric mastermind for raising capital.    So even there it's like, unless you're investing in the U S it's really challenging to justify what you're spending on that, a mastermind, depending on the cost. But anyways, that got me into the mindset of it, like buying your first property, once you do it once you're like, oh, that I can, I can do that. And that's really what it, what it was for us. Once we started raising capital. So this was the first investment raised a million and a half of equity.    So it's not a huge amount, but it was the first time we ever raised capital it, me and my partner. And, you know, the thing is, there's just, you go through these different cycles while you're raising up. Are we going to have enough? Okay, we're good. No, I don't think we're good. And then it got to the point where we're like, you know what, after it's all said and done, you have subscription agreement signed. You're like, I think if, if I was forced to, I think I could do three, I think it could do five. And I think that's the natural progression when you get used to something and you see that it's, it's achievable.    That's    Ava (25m 10s): Fantastic. And Jesse, I'm curious, what structure do you use to raise private capital?    Jesse (25m 15s): So we do a pretty standard limited partnership agreement. So general partner, limited partner with the caveat of having a asset management company, as part of basically the administration that kind of handles everything. So for those that don't know the, you know, the limited partners are all your investors. They have limited liability. This is not legal advice, but they have limited liability in these investments. The general partner in Canada partnership can not own a real asset that they can't own a property.    So you need to have sometimes a numbered company or a GP. The general partner as a corporation oftentimes owns the property has title, but the limited partner has a beneficial ownership of the property. And then from there, Ava, we do a very simple split where, you know, you have a certain threshold of preferred return that goes to your limited partners. So return of capital first, a preference turn of a certain percentage. Then after that a profit split between the general partners and the, and the limited partners, okay.    August (26m 22s): Maybe you can kind of talk to us more about the deal that you had. So for example, here at CPI, our business model is the multifamily value add and because of their, their higher rental value value ratios that exist in the us on a 70, 30 LTV, you know, we're, we're able to, from the rents we collect, we're able to pay our mortgage payment, pay taxes and fees, third-party property manager, and still have a surplus to pay our investors. Those preferred returns you talk of from day one, because the deals we look at are usually 90% occupied.    So they're, they're well above the mark. So now, how do you go about your deals? Are, are, are your deals ground up development? Is it a value add project? Is it kind of A-class talk to us or what kind of deals you guys work on and how are you able to, is there a return given to investors from day one or is there a kind of a capital event where the project has to go through a certain steps before there is any kind of cashflow coming back to the investor?    Jesse (27m 21s): Yeah. So for us, I'm constantly looking for off market deals, you know, as a broker, you know, first thing we think is we're not bidding on deals. So for me, I was actually land registry looking for properties off market calling, Hey, Jesse, for galley. Listen, I want to put an offer in, on your property when you consider one. So what D constantly outreaching for off market deals happen to find an off market deal? A gentleman owned the property for a number of years. I think it was kind of retirement time for them there. They were, you know, ready to sell.    So for me, this just happened to be a class deal. I wasn't searching for an A-class deal, but it was in probably one of the most expensive areas in Canada, in forest hill and Toronto. It just so happened that when we took a look at these rents, we were, we just saw that it was probably at 60% of what market is. So initially when we went into it, we, what we were going to do. And a lot of our clients do this, where they do what they call condo finishes two older apartments.    So you're putting a dishwasher in the apartment in suite laundry and what our initial thoughts were, were to go in, do $75,000 per unit, really higher end upgrades to achieve higher end rents. Now COVID happens. And all of a sudden, Y you know, you have to be careful about trying to just do a class when the market, you know, might not be able to sustain it. So, for us, what we did was we kind of pivoted and decided to do, you know, instead of a $75,000 upgrade, maybe a 40, 45 more conservative rents, and then kind of, you know, turn over three, four suites within a shorter time period.    So the structure of the deal ultimately was it wasn't, it wasn't a vanilla deal. It was a bridge loan for two years, stabilize the asset, do the renovations, renovate the L renovate a lease at these higher rates, then switch to a conventional, or, you know, CMHC loan switch to the L to that loan once you've achieved that rent. So that, that basically the mortgage takeout takes out your bridge loan. And now you have a stabilized income.    And to answer your last question, in terms of the capital event, this, this deal would be like a development deal. And if anybody has seen, you know, limited partnership agreements, when it comes to the development deals, you get your preferred return. And just as an aside, the preferred is not a guaranteed return. It's a preferred return. And absolutely you try to achieve that, but in a development deal, you know, there's no income. So what happens is that say 7% preferred return a cruise. So your one seven year, two 14, you know, some people compound it.    We don't, it's just simple accrual. And then when there is a capital event, say the refinance, then we decide then do we pay investors all back their initial cash, keep them in the deal, or do we sell a property? Has it gained enough that, you know, it looks appealing to sell and pivot or, or buy another asset so that, yeah, we, we, looking back, I would have had a lot, a lot less stress if we picked a more vanilla investment, but that's, that's what we, what we got our hands on.    August (30m 33s): Great. Oh, how many units was this project?    Jesse(30m 35s): So this one was, this one was seven units, but for anybody that's not in a major market, we're talking about 500,000 plus a unit th the, some that have sold on the street or 700,000 a unit. So this is not, you know, you're not in Boise, Idaho, the first investment, sorry, apartment building we bought was actually west of Toronto and Hamilton 11 unit. And it was a third of the price. So it's just a matter of, you can find expense, more expensive assets, but there definitely has to be a value play there because they're just too expensive to buy.    If they're, if they're already stabilized and at full rent.    Ava (31m 17s): Awesome. And the whole time, Jesse, what's the whole time that you guys were predicting    Jesse(31m 21s): For the, for this one that we're purchasing. So this one, what we have is that to your kind of timeframe, to do the renovations. And then for us, really, we talked to investors, the fund, the sort of the partnership is open for you no longer than that. But I personally, if, if things are where we think they will be in two years in terms of where we want to get the rents, I would love to refinance it, get everybody their capital back and stay in the deal together. And then down the road, because of where it's positioned with a lot of over a billion dollar of Provigil funds in transit.    I think we could add another story to it longer, you know, in the long run. So yeah, we have a few options, but I, the reason I bring that up is I hate seeing these investments where somebody says, like paying out their LPs and then buying them out. It's like, you're the reason they got this asset. You can pay them out and then they're not in the deal. Yeah.    Ava (32m 17s): Options are key. That's fantastic. Now maybe we can discuss your nurturing process for your investors as it's obviously a very important component of, of syndicated investments. So maybe you can please tell us how you nurture your investors and get that know like, and trust and keep that know like, and trust going.    Jesse (32m 36s): Yeah, for sure. I, I can't remember. It was actually a guy in the west end. I think Saskatoon, I had on my podcast and he said, this is very simple. He was, he's like, listen, go on your phone. If you scroll all the way down, if you have an iPhone and you're a contact scroll all the way down to the bottom, you'll see how many contacts you have. It's actually crazy when you're like, how did I accumulate, you know, whatever thousand 700, whatever contacts you can upload those to your computer as a spreadsheet. And you could run through those and really look at who's somebody that haven't had contact with that I could reach out to not to sell them anything.    But as a touch point saying, listen, you know, how are you doing? It's been a while, just a general email. So he had like a three-step, you know, general email, a discussion and just not being salesy. And eventually basically telling people, listen, like, you know what I do in real estate, these are the type of investments that I buy. If this is something that you'd be interested at all, when we have one of these under contract or we're purchasing one, let me know if you'd want, want me to share it? And if you don't just let me know as well.    And nine times out of 10 people don't say, no, they don't say like, no, no, don't tell me. And you know, you be somewhat strategic about the people that you're, you're reaching out to. And then I think what people really need to do, you're in so many more networks than you think you are for me. I did my masters at university of Toronto and just reaching out, literally getting the class list for my year and go and reaching out to all of them. Because, you know, if they, if they did that in school, they're probably, you know, doing something that, you know, might be a little bit different.    They they've made a career change maybe later in life. So you have access where I had access to a lot of people that were like, yeah, a hundred percent sign me up. And some of the people that are in the subscription that, that are LPs were from that. So, you know, I've had people on my podcast that were in law enforcement and they left the force and then they, you know, they had their first indication with 20 cops. So I think you got to look at the networks that you're in and, and don't be afraid to tell people what, they're, what you're doing. Like you, you, you two are doing here, you know, people know when they talked to you August and Ava, like yeah, they're, they're in real estate.    So I think being seen as is important, and I know it's not easy for everybody. We're not all extroverts, but it really is an important part. If you want to attract capital and, you know, that's the path you want to take.    August (34m 58s): Great. Awesome. And I'm sure your shows and your connection to a bigger pot pockets is also a great cultivation process for, for bringing awareness to you and, and investors to, to your services, but maybe briefly touch on your nurturing process when the investors do connect with you, if it's from your own list or from, from your marketing campaigns or from your thought leadership platform, as they come into your database, how do you keep in touch with them? Do you know if it's through newsletters or other content that you send to them? So eventually when you do have a deal, because as, as us being in the syndication business, we're not a fund, we're not continuously buying assets and continuously raising capital, we look for a great deals and then we present it to our investors, to, to us very briefly about your nurturing process when for your leads or your contacts.    Yeah,    Jesse (35m 43s): Absolutely. I think for me, part of it is, you know, when you go to working capital podcasts.com and people will subscribe to the podcast, that'll be part of, you know, me reaching out to people and connecting and nurturing through there when it comes to people that I've, I've reached out to that say, didn't sign up for the last syndication, just touch points with them, whether, you know, constant contact or MailChimp keeping kind of abreast of keeping them abreast of what you're doing. And really, I haven't, I haven't formalized it in like to a T for me, it's just been, you know, the list of people that I have that are in my database, on, you know, through my website where we capture all the emails through the, the list that I have when I reach out to people.    And yeah, it's, it's really, it's really like that right now. If we move to something more formalized as we, as we continue, you know, maybe that, that will be the path. Ideally, I'd like to get to a point where we're going to have committed capital rather than syndication where you're chasing the deal, chasing the clock, whereas where you can call capital and you have the fun there. Yes,    Ava (36m 47s): It's cool. Cause you probably have a long list of people who are watching you on the sideline watching you kind of do your first deal and then your next one. And eventually a lot of syndicators say five years down the road, they've been watching us and boom, they just gave me $2 million. Well, I had a buddy    Jesse (37m 0s): Of mine and like really good buddy that I did, that it was in my MBA and he's like, he opted out of the deal and he was just, you know, you know, you get a guy constantly asking you questions like, and then he's like, ah, so, so did that happen? I'm like, yeah, it happened. And he's like, oh, okay. I'll like, I'll, I'll go on the next one. I'm like I told you, man. So yeah. I mean, you just keep in touch and you know yeah, yeah. And it seems    August (37m 20s): Your process is much more up close and personal and hands-on, that's always the best way to go about when companies get bigger. You never even get the CEO on a call with your cases is very kind of up close and personal and that's great. That's great. Awesome. All right.    Ava (37m 33s): Now, Jesse, let's time to have some fun. We're going to start the next segment of our show. So we like to call this the 10 championship rounds to financial freedom. So please just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind and I'm going to get started.    Speaker 3 (37m 51s): All right. I am. I'm set. All    Ava (37m 53s): Right. So who was the most influential person in your life?    August (37m 59s): Cool.    Jesse (38m 1s): Oh, I'm going to get one of the mad probably my father.    August (38m 4s): He didn't give you that money, man. He's, you're attracted to the hard to get.    Ava (38m 11s): What is the number one book you recommend?    Jesse (38m 14s): Oh man. So many, but all I just say, start with no gym camp. Okay.    Ava (38m 20s): If you had the opportunity to travel back in time, what advice would you give your younger self start    Jesse (38m 29s): Early start, start right away. You    August (38m 31s): Started in 19.    Jesse (38m 33s): I think just in general with other things like anything in life that you go, I'll do this. Oftentimes you don't do so. Just, just jump in. If, if you know you, you will, you will regret not doing it. You know, that'll    August (38m 45s): Be the heavier regret when totally    Ava (38m 49s): All right. What, what's the best investment you've ever made    Jesse (38m 55s): In my education.    Ava (38m 57s): What's the worst investment you've ever made. Let me think your    Jesse (39m 5s): Worst investment I've ever made. One, one student rental property. It's tough to call them the worst because you learn from those. But very, a lot of, a lot of mistakes made on that, that, you know, took, took a while to, to, you know, fix and yeah.    Ava (39m 21s): All right. How much would you need in the bank to retire today? What's your number?    Jesse (39m 28s): Nothing. I, I love being active and working and I don't, I don't find what I do, you know, a job job. So    Ava (39m 38s): If you could have dinner with someone dead or alive, who would it be?    Jesse (39m 43s): Well, dad's more fun and morbid. Probably Milton Friedman. I've the economist. I've, I've always found his, his writing's really good capitalism, freed and freedom free to choose. Yeah.    Ava (39m 56s): Awesome. If you weren't doing what you're doing today, what would you be doing now?    Jesse (40m 1s): That's a good question. Probably law. Okay.    Ava (40m 6s): Book smarts or street smarts.    Jesse (40m 12s): After all my education, I always still say street smarts.    Ava (40m 17s): Okay. If you had a million dollars cash and you had to make one investment today, what would it be? I would put it    Jesse (40m 27s): In a fund as the GPS Capitol to show our skin in the game and you know, whatever we can multiply off that with, with investors. Awesome.    Ava (40m 38s): That's a great answer. Awesome. That's great. Those    Jesse (40m 41s): Are so yeah, you don't get asked those every day. Yeah. There    Ava (40m 44s): You go. Kind of puts you on the spot and it's fun footings, you know, first thing that comes to mind occasional    August (40m 50s): As well, right? It helps others kind of think about these questions and kind of helps them with the process. Hey Jay, Jesse, we really appreciate your time. Thank you for thinking. We know you're super busy. We really appreciate taking the time coming and speaking to us, definitely add a lot of value to our viewers and eventually our listeners listeners when we change this show to a podcast and,    Ava (41m 9s): And yeah, Jesse, if you just want to take a quick moment to tell everybody what, the best way that they can reach you, please.    Jesse (41m 15s): Yeah, for sure. I mean, aside from a Google search, Jesse, for galley working, working capital podcast.com, you can go there if you want to subscribe to, to get the show or Spotify, iTunes and yeah. Reach out to me there I'm as a broker, I'm not hard to find. So that's yeah.    Ava (41m 35s): Johnson, Jesse. Thanks a lot for coming today. Thanks so much.    Jesse (41m 47s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse, for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care. 

durée : 00:04:42 - Associations iséroises

durée : 00:05:18 - Le Coup de Cour du petit matin de France Bleu Berry

durée : 00:52:57 - Accès direct - Le film fait partie de la Sélection Officielle Cannes 2020 et de la Sélection Officielle de l'Alpe d'Huez 2021

durée : 00:52:57 - Accès direct - L’occasion de redécouvrir cette actrice populaire de façon plus intime, sensible, et également engagée.

durée : 00:02:40 - La minute jardin de France Bleu Gascogne

○149人目のエシカルドリーマー情報○. .　 . ◯odai(株式会社サカキＬ＆Ｅワイズ)のマイエシカル◯. 森林からの気付きを伝える為に。. . . . ◯出演者情報◯ 株式会社サカキL＆Eワイズ. 営業管理部　課長　岡本宏之. . . . ◯活動内容等◯. ・三重県多気郡大台町。ユネスコエコパークにも認定されている自然豊かな地域。その大台町の森林資源を活用したアロマ商品、またはそのアロマ商品を派生させた生活雑貨や化粧品の製造販売. ・アロマオイル、石鹸や化粧水、アロマスプレーなど、樹木の香りが活きる商品. ・森作りが一体となった商品開発で持続可能なもの作り. ・「大台町」とういう「地域性」にとらわれることのない、こだわって作られたその他の原材料と組み合わせることによる商品作り. . . . . ◯何故それをしようと思ったのか. ・ユネスコエコパーク＝自然と共生している地域ということで、森林資源を活用した産業もなくてはならないもの。大台町の森林は数百に及ぶ種類の樹木が生息し、その樹木の特徴を理解し、その特徴に合う商品作りがこれからは必要だから ・林業の衰退により、中山間地域の雇用や収入源の減少問題 ・従来の林業＝建築資材の供給だったが、そうではない多様性のある商品作りがこれからは必要. . . . . ◯これからやりたいこと◯. これまでの林業の常識や考え方にとらわれることなく、消費者の声を聴きながら、多様な商品作りを行い、日本の林業の可能性を広げていきたい。. . . . . 〇ラジオで伝えきれなかったこと. 組み合わせるというのは日本人の独特の考え方であり、その組み合わせの美学が日本のアイデンティティの根底にある。この組み合わせというのは、必ず地域内の素材だけ、日本国内の素材だけ、ということではなく、世界中の素晴らしい素材と組み合わせることだと考えてモノづくりを行っています。. . . . . 〇ＰＲ事項等. ＨＰ→Odai | voice of Odai , Mie japan (voice-odai.jp) ・Odaiとcokageの歌を作りました。 HPでも今後アップ予定です(Odai | voice of Odai , Mie japan (voice-odai.jp)。 . . . . 次はどんな方にエシカルバトンが手渡されるのかお楽しみに❣️. . . . . #ethical #fair trade　#エシカル #エシカルバトン #sdgs #child #love #peace #sustainable #笑顔 #smile #平和 #交流　#world #日本 #japan #愛 #friendly #アロマ　#大台町 #nature #Instagram #三重　#ユネスコパーク #自然 #森林 #地域活性化

MAIJS 2021 Ikmēneša Metāla Šovs METĀLKĀSTS LV Podkāsts #112 ''Leģendārā šamisena labošanas tehnika, dvēseles drauga meklējumi un izlaušanās no underground'' Šajā epizodē:

His Excellency Mr Mario Farrugia Borg, the new Maltese High Commissioner of Malta in Australia presented his credentials to His Excellency General the Honourable David Hurley AC DC (Retd), Governor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia. In an interview with Joe Axiaq, Mr Farrugia Borg speaks about the strengthening of the bilateral relations between Malta and Australia, as well as seeking to keep the interest of the Maltese living in Australia at the core of the mandate of the High Commission in Canberra and the Consulates General in Melbourne and Sydney. - L-Eċċellenza tiegħu s-Sur Mario Farrugia Borg, il-Kummissarju ġdid għal Malta fl-Awstralja ppreżenta l-kredenzjali tiegħu lill-Eċċellenza tiegħu l-Gvernatur Ġenerali tal-Commonwelath tal-Awstralja. F'intervista ma' Joe Axiaq, is-Sur Mario Farrugia Borg jitkellem dwar ir-relazzjonijiet tajba bejn Malta u l-Awstralja u x-xogħol tal-Kummissjoni Għolja u l-Konsolati Maltin fl-Awstralja.

Okan DEDEOĞLU ile Taze Gündem Kanalımızda ‘' İnovasyon ve İş Dünyasında Gelecek '' konusunu konuştuk. Uzman konuğumuz; ‘'İÇİL Eğitim ve Danışmanlık Kurucusu / Strateji ve İnovasyon Danışmanı Mustafa İÇİL''

durée : 00:52:57 - Accès direct - D’après une idée originale de... Joey Starr également

Comment écouter la relation entre espaces privés et publics dans la Medina de Marrakech ? Comment donner à entendre la complexe dynamique entre visibilité et invisibilité des corps genrés dans l'espace urbain ? Guidées par les oreilles et les voix de Latifa, Mina, Zahra, Meriem Saou'd, Amina, Rachida, Nadira, Khadija et Fatima, ce documentaire propose une dérive auditive dans les ruelles de la Médina de Marrakech à partir d'une perspective genrée et plurielle. En se concentrant sur l'approche orale, l'intention a été de créer un chœur multiple de voix basé sur la narration personnelle de leurs perceptions, valeurs et expériences quotidiennes de la ville, en se concentrant également sur le paysage sonore public et ses propres rythmes que ces femmes contribuent à composer. Ce projet s'inscrit dans la recherche doctorale en Arts et Sciences de l'Art menée par l'artiste entre l'ARBA et la ULB à Bruxelles: « Nouveaux genres d'écoute : voix, corps, silences et territoires ». Il a été réalisé lors d'une résidence artistique 'LE 18' dans le cadre du programme Qanat et en partenariat avec la Fondation Dar Bellarj à Marrakech, dans le cadre des Ateliers Collectifs. _________ Interviews, montage et réalisation : Anna Raimondo Prise de son avec Jeanne Debarsy Mixage et prise de son additionnelles : Bastien Hildalgo Ruiz Traduction du darija au français par Aida Bouissehak & Nourredine Ezarraf Médiation : Noureddine Ezarraf, Maha el Madi & Francesca Masoero Merci aux protagonistes Latifa, Mina, Zahra, Meriem Saou'd, Amina, Rachida, Nadira, Khadija et Fatima A toute l'équipe pour le professionnalisme, leur complicité et leur engagement Une co-production de Deutschlandfunk Kultur avec l'atelier de création sonore et radiophonique Bruxelles, Studio Euphonia - Radio Grenouille Marseille

durée : 00:52:57 - Accès direct - Le concours d'éloquence revient pour une 3ème édition pleine de surprises et d’émotions.

''Le clivage entre ceux qui prônent la vaccination et ceux qui sont hésitants ou contre n’a rien à voir avec le clivage ''anti bibi'' ou ''pro bibi''...et pourtant c’est ce qu’on essaye de nous faire croire...''Je suis révolté par les mesures coercitives et liberticides sous couvert de crise sanitaire et je boycotterai, même vacciné, tous les lieux qui se prêteront à cette mascarade digne de 1984'' . Dans un post sur Facebook, David Benichou lance un appel à l'union dans le peuple et au respect de la démocratie et des libertés individuelles. Il s'explique au micro d'Emmanuelle Adda

Hablamos con Xavier Bermúdez, director de 'Olvido y León' y Sofía Oria, actriz de 'Libertad'. Recibimos a Sofía Oria, una de las actrices de 'Libertad', el proyecto de cine y televisión de Enrique Urbizu. Además hablamos con Xavier Bermúdez, director de 'Olvido y León', la secuela de 'León y Olvido' que estrenó en 2004.

durée : 00:03:54 - Label Bleu FB Picardie

'Le architettrici: ridisegnare il mondo dopo il Covid'. Ne parliamo con Elisabetta Cianfanelli, Presidente Corso di laurea magistrale in Fashion system design all'Università di Firenze; Francesca Bertuglia, Architetta di interni; Alessandra Ferrari, Architetta, Consigliera nel Consiglio nazionale architetti pianificatori paesaggisti e conservatori.

'Le architettrici: ridisegnare il mondo dopo il Covid'. Ne parliamo con Elisabetta Cianfanelli, Presidente Corso di laurea magistrale in Fashion system design all'Università di Firenze; Francesca Bertuglia, Architetta di interni; Alessandra Ferrari, Architetta, Consigliera nel Consiglio nazionale architetti pianificatori paesaggisti e conservatori.

Kalm met Klassiek is jouw dagelijkse dosis klassieke ontspanning. Ook de komende dagen gaat Ab Nieuwdorp je elke dag blij maken met een rustgevend klassiek werk. Om bij te ontspannen, om van te genieten en om van op te vrolijken. En dat laatste gaat deze week zeker gebeuren, want ons thema is hartstikke vrolijk. Het is lente! De perfecte muzikale start van deze lenteweek is natuurlijk Vivaldi's 'La primavera' uit zijn 'Le quattro stagioni'.

'Le sindache d'Italia', con Andrea Catizone, autrice del libro e Direttrice del Dipartimento Pari Opportunità di Ali, e Livia Turco, Presidente della Fondazione Nilde Iotti.

'Le sindache d'Italia', con Andrea Catizone, autrice del libro e Direttrice del Dipartimento Pari Opportunità di Ali, e Livia Turco, Presidente della Fondazione Nilde Iotti.

La cinta de Xavier Bermúdez es el último trabajo del intérprete con Síndrome de Down en el cine, 17 años después de 'León y Olvido', premiada en Málaga y Karlovy Vary | Más cine y series, en Kinótico

Acteur Lucas Van den Eynde kiest voor een fragmentje uit de toneeltekst 'Le cocu magnifique', meesterlijk vertaald door Pjeroo Roobjee.

''Le clivage entre ceux qui prônent la vaccination et ceux qui sont hésitants ou contre n’a rien à voir avec le clivage ''anti bibi'' ou ''pro bibi''...et pourtant c’est ce qu’on essaye de nous faire croire...'' Je suis révolté par les mesures coercitives et liberticides sous couvert de crise sanitaire et je boycotterai, même vacciné, tous les lieux qui se prêteront à cette mascarade digne de 1984'' . Dans un post sur Facebook, David Benichou lance un appel à l'union dans le peuple et au respect de la démocratie et des libertés individuelles. Il s'explique au micro d'Emmanuelle Adda

Il y a deux ans, jour pour jour la première grande manifestation pour réclamer le départ du président Bouteflika emplissait les rues à Alger et dans les principales villes du pays. Deux ans plus tard, le mouvement de contestation est toujours bien présent, même s’il a été mis sous cloche par la pandémie et par la répression. Illustration avec ce dessin publié par El Watan  : on y voit un manifestant masqué, drapeau algérien sur les épaules, en train de souffler deux bougies sur un gâteau et en face, un policier avec un canon à eau qui lui dit : « besoin d’aide ? » Commentaire du quotidien Liberté: « Alger a passé un week-end sous haute surveillance. On ne sait si le déploiement de forces ostensibles répond à une appréhension de troubles ou s’il matérialise un message de dissuasion. Mais, plus que tout discours et en dépit de tout discours, il est révélateur du fondement policier de notre État. » Répétition générale à Paris Déjà, hier dimanche, pointe Le Matin d’Algérie, « ils étaient plusieurs milliers d’Algériennes et d’Algériens à Paris à la veille du deuxième anniversaire du soulèvement populaire. Les manifestants, remontés par les errements du régime, ont appelé à la libération de tous les prisonniers d’opinion et réclamé un 'changement radical' du système. (…) Les dernières libérations d’une trentaine de détenus d’opinion n’ont pas convaincu. 'C’est une mesurette visant à faire échouer les manifestations du 22 février', estime Nabil, cité par Le Matin. 'Le régime n’a pas changé son logiciel, il continue de bricoler des solutions pour durer et nous berner, nous on veut un changement global dans la gouvernance', abonde Ali. Un autre ajoute : 'nous voulons la libération de toute l’Algérie, pas seulement de quelques détenus arbitrairement jetés en prison'. À moins de 24 h de la date anniversaire, ce rassemblement donne le la aux marches prévues ce lundi à Alger, conclut Le Matin, une capitale déjà verrouillée par les services de sécurité. » Comment faire perdurer le mouvement ? Alors, deux ans après, « le Hirak peut-il se réinventer ? », s’interroge dans Jeune Afrique la journaliste Nadia Henni-Moulaï. « Le Hirak n’est pas mort. Simplement en dormance, répond-elle. Tout semble avoir changé depuis deux ans – Bouteflika est parti, et Tebboune promet une 'Algérie nouvelle' – mais les enjeux de justice, de liberté et de droits demeurent. Le sort des détenus d’opinion, dont celui du journaliste Khaled Drareni libéré vendredi après près d’un an de prison, détonne, insolemment, avec l’acquittement de Saïd Bouteflika et des généraux Tartag et Toufik, prononcé par le tribunal militaire de Blida, le 2 janvier… Comment, alors, faire perdurer le mouvement, et le doter d’une feuille de route efficiente ?, s’interroge Nadia Henni-Moulaï. Aujourd’hui, la question ne porte plus sur le redémarrage du Hirak. Plutôt sur la forme qu’il devra désormais prendre pour résoudre les défis qu’il s’est lancé. Avec une ligne de fracture qui se profile, peut-être, à l’intérieur même du mouvement : faut-il négocier ou non avec le pouvoir ? Et si oui, qui pour représenter le mouvement ? » Niger : l’ampleur du défi sécuritaire À la Une également, le second tour de la présidentielle au Niger marqué hier par un attentat terroriste : 7 agents électoraux de la CENI, la Commission électorale, ont été tués dans l’explosion de leur véhicule qui a roulé sur une mine. Cette attaque « est à elle seule symptomatique de l’ampleur du défi sécuritaire qui attend le prochain président, s’exclame Ledjely en Guinée. Qu’il s’appelle Mohamed Bazoum ou Mahamane Ousmane, le successeur de Mahamadou Issoufou sait qu’il devra faire face au péril terroriste. Les djihadistes ne s’avouent pas vaincus. Et même pour ceux qui en doutaient encore, l’attaque perpétrée dans la région de Tillabéry hier, en est une dramatique preuve. Leur acte ignoble doit même être perçu comme une sorte d’avertissement à l’intention du futur président. Qui qu’il soit, il n’aura pas de répit. » « L’heure n’est plus à l’émotion, mais à l’action ! », lance pour sa part WakatSéra au Burkina. « Il urge de mettre en branle les résolutions accouchées par le dernier sommet du G5 Sahel de N’Djamena, surtout celles qui confortent la présence de Barkhane dans le Sahel et l’envoi des 1.200 soldats tchadiens dans cette zone des 'trois frontières' que partagent le Niger, le Mali et le Burkina Faso et qui est devenue un cimetière à ciel ouvert pour les militaires et les populations civiles de ces pays. »

durée : 00:07:25 - Les talents Bretons FB Armorique - Un retour que l'on attendait depuis trois ans. Mais une attente qui en valait la peine.

''Le clivage entre ceux qui prônent la vaccination et ceux qui sont hésitants ou contre n’a rien à voir avec le clivage ''anti bibi'' ou ''pro bibi''...et pourtant c’est ce qu’on essaye de nous faire croire...''Je suis révolté par les mesures coercitives et liberticides sous couvert de crise sanitaire et je boycotterai, même vacciné, tous les lieux qui se prêteront à cette mascarade digne de 1984'' . Dans un post sur Facebook, David Benichou lance un appel à l'union dans le peuple et au respect de la démocratie et des libertés individuelles. Il s'explique au micro d'Emmanuelle Adda See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

durée : 00:06:13 - Les talents Bretons FB Armorique - Un retour que l'on attendait depuis trois ans. Mais une attente qui en valait la peine.

durée : 00:25:03 - L'invité de 8h20 : le grand entretien - par : Nicolas Demorand, Léa Salamé - Antoine Bueno, essayiste, conseiller au Sénat sur la prospection et le développement durable, auteur de Futur, notre avenir de A à Z (Flammarion), est l'invité du Grand entretien de France Inter.

durée : 01:29:59 - Les Nuits de France Culture - par : Philippe Garbit, Albane Penaranda, Mathilde Wagman - Par Simone Douek - Avec Annie Fratellini (artiste, clown, comédienne, chanteuse), Paul Adrian (bibliothécaire, historiographe), Pierre Étaix (cinéaste, clown, dessinateur, affichiste), Nicolas Bataille (comédien, metteur en scène), Pierre-Robert Levy (spécialiste du cirque) et Geneviève de Kermabon (trapéziste) - Avec les voix de Françoise Rosay et François Périer - Réalisation Maurice Audran - réalisation : Virginie Mourthé

durée : 00:54:10 - Le Masque et la Plume - Que pensent nos critiques de "L’année du singe" de Patti Smith, 'Le banquet annuel de la confrérie des fossoyeurs' de Mathias Enard, "Interventions 2020" de Michel Houellebecq, "La famille Martin" de David Foenkinos, "Les inséparables" de Simone de Beauvoir ?

« Deux ans après la célébration fastueuse de la fin de la Première Guerre mondiale lors de son 'itinérance mémorielle' dans l’est et le nord de la France, c’est en tout petit comité, pointe Le Figaro, que le président de la République referme ce mercredi la page des 100 ans de la Grande Guerre. Coronavirus oblige, seules une trentaine de personnes participeront à la cérémonie cette année, où Emmanuel Macron commémorera un autre centenaire : celui de l’installation de la tombe du Soldat inconnu, placée sous la voûte de l’Arc de triomphe le 11 novembre 1920. » Alors, poursuit Le Figaro, « contrairement à 2018, le président ne profitera pas de la cérémonie organisée place de l’Étoile pour prononcer un grand discours. Il le fera en revanche quelques heures plus tard, au Panthéon, lors de l’hommage qu’il rendra à l’écrivain combattant Maurice Genevoix en fin de journée. 'Le président veut porter l’idée d’une vraie continuité, par-delà du siècle qui les séparent, entre Ceux de 14 et ceux de 2020', explique un conseiller, reprenant le titre de l’une des œuvres du défunt académicien. 'La continuité, c’est que nos militaires, aujourd’hui, se battent - et meurent - pour les valeurs de la France. En 1914, les démocraties affrontaient les empires, poursuit ce conseiller. Aujourd’hui, les démocraties - et singulièrement la nôtre - affrontent la pandémie, le séparatisme, le terrorisme… Au fond, on se bat pour les mêmes valeurs'. » Un vaccin miracle ? La bataille contre la pandémie justement, avec la lueur d’espoir que représente ce fameux vaccin annoncé par Pfizer… Nombre de journaux y reviennent ce matin, notamment Le Parisien. L’avancée est indéniable, souligne le journal, même s’il reste encore des étapes à franchir. « La performance est bien d’avoir obtenu de tels résultats un an seulement après l’apparition de la maladie, s’exclame Le Parisien. Pour vaincre la peste, il a fallu attendre 600 ans. Pour le sida, un traitement est apparu au bout de 30 ans. Et toujours pas de vaccin. Ce qui a changé, c’est l’utilisation des nouvelles technologies, à commencer par la puissance inimaginable des calculateurs. Pour découvrir l’agent infectieux du sida, il a fallu 6 ans. Pour le Covid, 6 jours, souligne encore le journal. L’association de la biologie et de l’informatique a permis de faire des miracles. » Certes, rappelle encore Le Parisien, il reste des étapes avant une mise sur le marché dans le courant de l’année prochaine. Le Parisien qui s’interroge aussi : « faudra-t-il rendre ce vaccin obligatoire ? » Oui, répond le journal : « quand on sait que guérir un malade du Covid passé en réanimation coûte à la collectivité de 50.000 à 60.000 euros, la question de la vaccination obligatoire ne pourra pas ne pas se poser un jour. » Prudence… Mais encore une fois, prudence, il ne faut pas brûler les étapes, estiment Les Dernières Nouvelles d’Alsace : « en l’absence d’étude détaillée et transparente, on ne peut se faire qu’un avis personnel sur ce vaccin. Il n’y a eu aucun débat scientifique sur les chiffres révélés alors que c’est l’usage et une forme de sécurité avant l’officialisation d’une découverte. (…) L’urgence n’est pas une excuse à l’emballement, aux effets parfois tragiques, pointe encore le quotidien alsacien. Il faut aller vite contre le Covid certes, mais à pas assurés. » Redressement de l’économie : concertation et anticipation ! En tout cas, le temps presse : ce vaccin représente un formidable espoir en terme de santé publique, bien sûr, mais aussi pour des pans entiers de l’économie… Et pour Le Monde, il faut « recalibrer le plan de relance annoncé début septembre (en France), dans un contexte où la perspective d’un second reconfinement semblait exclue. Sans abandonner ses objectifs de long terme, ce plan doit aussi porter sur des mesures plus immédiates, pour encourager la consommation des ménages les moins favorisés et stimuler de façon plus directe la capacité d’investissement des entreprises. Certes, reconnait Le Monde, l’annonce de Pfizer (…) laisse entrevoir une lueur d’espoir. Mais le défi est tel que celui-ci mettra plusieurs mois à se concrétiser. D’ici là, pointe le quotidien du soir, il faudra tenir en améliorant sans cesse l’articulation entre santé et économie, dans la concertation et l’anticipation. Deux dimensions qui ont cruellement fait défaut jusqu’à présent. »

durée : 00:09:07 - Accès privé France Bleu Paris - Notre reporter tous terrains, Murielle Giordan, vous emmène dans la plus grande maison hantée de France : le Manoir de Paris !

durée : 00:50:28 - Par Jupiter ! - par : Charline Vanhoenacker, Alex Vizorek - Bonjour la France Inter ! Retrouvez l'émission destinée à la jeunesse apprenante... et républicaine !

durée : 00:50:28 - Par Jupiter ! - par : Charline Vanhoenacker, Alex Vizorek - Bonjour la France Inter ! Retrouvez l'émission destinée à la jeunesse apprenante... et républicaine !

durée : 00:28:44 - Personnages en personne - par : Charles Dantzig - Ah! la garce! Qui dit ça? Les hommes, les femmes. Ce n'est pas une injure sexiste, c'est la constatation d'un comportement que l'on résume dans une catégorie, un type. La garce, c'est une femme, comme son nom l’indique. On se venge de son talent par ce mot, elle qui a été plus rapide que ses ennemis - réalisation : Clotilde Pivin - invités : Anne Boulay Journaliste, scénariste, ancienne Rédactrice en chef de Vanity Fair France

durée : 00:28:44 - Personnages en personne - par : Charles Dantzig - Ah! la garce! Qui dit ça? Les hommes, les femmes. Ce n'est pas une injure sexiste, c'est la constatation d'un comportement que l'on résume dans une catégorie, un type. La garce, c'est une femme, comme son nom l’indique. On se venge de son talent par ce mot, elle qui a été plus rapide que ses ennemis - réalisation : Clotilde Pivin - invités : Anne Boulay Journaliste, scénariste, ancienne Rédactrice en chef de Vanity Fair France

In this episode, fellow L&E partner Alden Thomas joins Alejandro as they celebrate the anniversary of the ADA and discuss issues surrounding the FFCRA. Our discussion includes thoughts on a New York court’s recent ruling striking down salient portions of the FFCRA.  

Gros coup de cœur du côté du cinéma français avec ''Le bonheur des uns'' LA comédie à ne pas louper, autre comédie française ''La Daronne'' avec Isabelle Hupert dans le rôle principal. ---Tous les mercredis à 8h45, Cathy Immelen épingle pour vous les sorties cinéma . Elle vous dévoile ses coups de cœur et ses déceptions, dans la bonne humeur, aux côtés d'Eric Laforge.

durée : 00:58:45 - Les Cours du Collège de France - par : Merryl Moneghetti - Combien d’années faut-il séjourner dans un pays pour pouvoir faire une demande de naturalisation ? S’interroge le démographe sociologue, François Héran. Quelles ont été les grandes discussions de politique démographique après 1945 ? - réalisation : Laure-Hélène Planchet - invités : François Héran Sociologue, anthropologue et démographe. Professeur au Collège de France, titulaire de la chaire « Migrations et sociétés  », directeur de l’Institut Convergences Migrations. Directeur de recherches à l'INED et ancien directeur de l'INED.

durée : 00:09:38 - Un voyage : la Seine et nos amours - par : François Sureau - Etape finale du voyage séquanien : ce fut tout à la fois un voyage dans le temps, mais aussi dans l'espace mystérieux où se rejoignent la vie et la littérature. C'est que cette descente de la Seine avec ses 40 points d'étape nous a permis d'entendre le récit d'histoires éclectiques liées au fleuve. - réalisation : Vincent Decque

durée : 00:10:00 - Un voyage : la Seine et nos amours - par : François Sureau - Nous sommes dans un lieu : 1/ pareil à Nice ; 2/ dans lequel le gouvernement belge déplaça sa capitale (donc dans un lieu qui fut Bruxelles) ; 3/ qui se situe en Normandie. Alors où sommes-nous ? François Sureau nous montre que cette devinette est tout sauf fantaisiste... Il y a bien une solution ! - réalisation : Vincent Decque

In this episode, Kieran and I discuss the Henri-Georges Clouzot film 'The Wages of Fear' (or, to give it it's original French title, 'Le salaire de la peur').

In this solo episode I talk about Albert Lamorisse's short film 'The Red Balloon'(or, to give the film it's original French title, 'Le ballon rouge').

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