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WhoDoug Fish, founder of the Snowvana ski show and Indy PassDate RecordedSept. 30, 2026About SnowvanaSnowvana is a “winter kick-off festival” (a ski show) scheduled for a four-city 2026 tour:Use the code “storm26” to snatch a free ticket here for any 2026 Snowvana show.Check out the list of free and discounted lift tickets available onsite at each show. Why I interviewed himIf we trust the metonymic origin story of our surnames, then Doug Fish is a descendant of “a catcher or seller of fish,” probably sometime before the invention of the printing press. I cannot think of anything that I understand less than fishing. Specifically, how a person can be good at it. My experience with fishing is that you cast a line in the water and nothing happens while you get drunk. But my buddy's brother could go out on Sanford Lake in a rowboat and return an hour later surrounded by like 50 fish. Every damn time. And I was always just astonished like whatever inherent traits you need to be good at fishing that dude has them.I don't know if Doug Fish is good at fishing, or if he even likes it. I do know that he's good at skiing, and that he likes it. And whatever fishing ability he may or may not have inherited from Alabaster Fish of the 12th Century, he certainly possesses some of the traits of great fishermen: patience, instinct, and the ability to do hard things that no one else can figure out.Organizing and launching the Indy Pass is probably one of the great achievements of modern skiing, in that it proved that any ski area - and therefore nearly any skier - could join the multimountain pass club. While Indy wasn't a novel or new concept, Fish was able to achieve the heretofore impossible task of organizing far-flung ski areas into a coalition with patience, persistence, and a low-key, no-pressure approach devoid of Big Ski's ego. Once Fish sold Indy Pass, he tried something even harder: replicating the success of his Portland ski show across the country. To me, that sounds even more impossible than fishing, and does not include the benefit of a cooler MGDs on the boat floor. But whatever is inside of Fish that made the Indy Pass work, it's making the recently faded ski show work too. I've attended Snowvana in Portland and Milwaukee, each time as a paid speaker. I'm scheduled to host live conversations with Indy Pass/Entabeni/Black Mountain owner Erik Mogensen (Friday, Nov. 6) and Killington owner Phill Gross and president Mike Solimano (Saturday, Nov. 7), at this year's New England show. I don't endorse Snowvana over any competing shows, but I do think ski shows in general offer a fun atmosphere, and a cool way to participate in skiing when you can't actually go skiing.BackgroundFish has appeared on The Storm Skiing Podcast four times, each time solely as a representative of the Indy Pass:TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder of the Snowvana Winter Kickoff Festival and also founder of the Indie Pass. Now in its 10th year, Snowvana gathers skiers, ski area operators, and retailers in Portland, Oregon.00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.000Stuart Winchester: Seattle, New England, and Wisconsin.00:16:46.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: The Indy Pass, which Fish founded in 2019 and sold in 2023, but is still involved in, delivers skiers two days each at more than 300 ski areas around the world for winter 2026 to 27. He is making his fifth appearance on the Storm Skiing Podcast. He is Doug Fish. Doug, welcome back.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: How's it been? Been way too long.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Doug Fish: It has to. I know. I miss you.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:21.000Stuart Winchester: I know. Well, it's been way too long on the pod, and I was just talking before this, in my little intro, before you joined, that this is one of the reasons I wanted to do a different format pod, because.00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: I talk or text you all the time.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.000Doug Fish: Yeah, yeah, no worries.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:39.000Stuart Winchester: And I haven't had you on the pod in 3 years. So, there's no reason for that, because we love hearing from you, and your episodes always do really well. And we will be working together here a little bit on one of these Snovana appearances in a bit. We'll get to that.00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: First, though, I do want to pick up…00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.000Stuart Winchester: where we left off in that pod three years ago. You had just sold IndiePass to Eric Mogensen.00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.000Doug Fish: Get it.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, who has gone on to since, also by Black Mountain, and runs a technology company. He was on the podcast recently, and has been a couple times. Just…00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: First of all, tell us how you're still involved, and give as candid of an assessment as you can of.00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: where the Indy Pass is once you… once you let that baby go.00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:22.000Doug Fish: Well, it was a little difficult to let the baby go, but I felt at the time that it would be in good hands, and I'm happy to report that it is in good hands.00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: No.00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.000Doug Fish: Um, you know, my country… my employment agreement ran out.00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.000Doug Fish: Almost two years ago.00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:35.000Doug Fish: And I'm still involved, you know. Eric and I extended it, and we keep extending it, and…00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:45.000Doug Fish: I believe in in what he's doing. I certainly believe in the past. I think that Eric has done a great job of.00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:50.000Doug Fish: Staying true to the mission and the brand promise of IndyPass.00:18:50.000 --> 00:19:00.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, as long as that continues, I will… I will be involved in some capacity. I'm kind of the Colonel Sanders of the IndyPass now.00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:08.000Doug Fish: I and you know I get to be a little a bit of an ambassador. I go to some of the trade shows.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.000Doug Fish: I ski with people.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.000Doug Fish: It's… it's a pretty good gig, you know.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.000Stuart Winchester: When you said Colonel Sanders, I mean, are you…00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.000Stuart Winchester: What I thought you were doing is still…00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: Recruiting new partners? Is that not the case?00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:37.000Doug Fish: Yeah, I've been. That's what I've been primarily focused on recruiting and maintaining relationships, you know, and and helping grow from a hundred to 300 resorts in the last 3, 3 and a half years, which is pretty incredible growth. And.00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:49.000Doug Fish: you know, I can't take all the credit, but, um, you know, when you can focus on just one thing, you can be a lot more effective, and I've been focused on that.00:19:49.000 --> 00:20:04.000Doug Fish: But Eric has assembled a great team, and I've kind of handed that that part of the the effort off to Nick Niebus and a couple other people on Eric's team that are recruiting new resorts, and, as you can see from the latest release, that's.00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.000Doug Fish: Going pretty well.00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:12.000Doug Fish: Um, and I, you know, I think there's some other exciting news in the, in the, uh…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:21.000Doug Fish: Uh, coming up in the future, I won't spill the beans, but, um, you know, there's always cool things happening there, and I'm just really thankful to be involved.00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:38.000Stuart Winchester: It's been really fascinating to watch the evolution of not just the Indy Pass, but the Pass landscape as a whole. And coincidentally, we started our brands in the same year. Obviously, you've been at this game for a long time, but the Indy Pass launched in 2019, and that's when I came around.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.000Stuart Winchester: observing the industry.00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: the pass landscape for as long as you've been directly involved in it. And I think the way I always look at this, Doug, is Vail normalized the notion of a multi-mountain pass as an everyday product for the everyday skier, not just a niche product for locals.00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:04.000Stuart Winchester: And then ICON copied that model, and your contribution to it, which I think was…00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Extremely important was.00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:17.000Stuart Winchester: taking that idea and normalizing the idea of the non-alpha ski area, non-destination ski area, and you do have some of those, you do. But…00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:25.000Stuart Winchester: the idea that if you put together Brundage and Mission Ridge and Silver Mountain and White Pass.00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.000Doug Fish: Okay.00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:40.000Stuart Winchester: That would be an attractive pass together, right? Because those ski areas, they're, they're good, they're big ski areas, they have lots of snow, but they're not destination ski areas, they're not things people would have thought to fly to, but you had this insight, okay, but if I put them all together, that's pretty cool.00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.000Stuart Winchester: And so I'll give you some numbers and I'll let you react to this.00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:52.000Stuart Winchester: So, the first season of IndiePass, you launched with, you know, your first list of 10, and maybe you had 50 by the end of the year. Right now.00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:04.000Stuart Winchester: if you look at, uh, Epic, Icon, Indy, Mountain Collective, and the new Snow Pass from Snow Partners, there are 451 ski areas around the world.00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, between those 5 passes. A little bit of overlap between a few of them. 267 in the United States.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.000Doug Fish: Yeah, thank you.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: 55 in Canada, 61 in Europe.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and 53 in Japan.00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:19.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, as you…00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:25.000Stuart Winchester: As you kind of reflect on how this landscape has changed.00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:33.000Stuart Winchester: I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, does this surprise you? I mean, how well this worked and how much it caught on?00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000Doug Fish: No, it doesn't surprise me at all.00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.000Doug Fish: It's basic economics.00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:44.000Doug Fish: You know, lift tickets were getting super expensive, and.00:22:45.000 --> 00:23:05.000Doug Fish: a lot of people are getting priced out of the sport, and I mean, even if you want to ski at Vail resorts or Altara resorts. You know you you really have to get a pass if you want to ski more than a few days, and so it doesn't surprise me at all. It's just a it's a good deal. Any pass is the best deal of all.00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000Doug Fish: You know, whether you use it as a regional pass, you know, you go 4 or 5 days in New England, or you take it and you hit the road and hit 25 resorts. It's the best deal in skiing, and it always has been.00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000Doug Fish: So, you know, people respond to deals. That's…00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000Doug Fish: That's, uh, you know, the most of… most, uh…00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:39.000Doug Fish: effective word in advertising is free and cheap comes a second, I think. So it doesn't surprise me a bit.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: So we're starting to see a little bit of churn, and we've seen this since the days of the Max Pass.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.000Doug Fish: Okay.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, you know, the Epic Pass and Mountain Collective sort of trading partners around. We've seen less of it, maybe, than I expected at the top end of Epic and Icon. We're starting to see a little in Indy. You've had some partners leave, you've had some partners who have gone to different passes.00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.000Doug Fish: Yeah. Okay.00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.000Doug Fish: Yeah, exactly.00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:05.000Stuart Winchester: What do you… so, the reality is it's a good idea, and people copied it, and that's a free market, and that's how compet.00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.000Stuart Winchester: My question for you is, what do you think?00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:20.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass has to do to make sure that it stays relevant, that the coalition stays together, that it stays an attractive.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:26.000Stuart Winchester: product for both skiers and ski area operators as Eric takes it into the future.00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.000Doug Fish: Well, two things. I think that any of us, Lauren.00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.000Stuart Winchester: I'm sorry, can you repeat that?00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.000Doug Fish: I apologize, too. I got a derm.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.000Stuart Winchester: All good.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.000Doug Fish: Um…00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:51.000Doug Fish: In order for Dandy Pass to remain relevant, they need to continue to be an affordable option for consumers.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.000Doug Fish: and continue to deliver value for the resorts.00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:07.000Doug Fish: And value in, you know, the quality of the visitors, the guests, the amount of check they write, and the amount that they pay for each visit.00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.000Doug Fish: And if they can continue to do that, then they will…00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.000Doug Fish: They will outlive you and I both.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:28.000Doug Fish: Um, and, you know, yes, we have over 300 resorts now, you're bound to lose a few now and then. And, you know, we took a hit this year, a few people left, that was unfortunate, but we added…00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:38.000Doug Fish: quite a few more. So, you know, it's going great. I'm proud of what they're doing over there, and I'm proud to be associated with it still.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:54.000Stuart Winchester: So you're playing… I mean, your name comes up all the time, as you said, from listening to the first few podcasts of this shorter version that I'm doing now, or trying to make them short, is… wow, everyone has a lot of opinions about Doug Fish, but so does Doug Fish.00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:50.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:03.000Stuart Winchester: So, so you're clearly still living large in the minds of, of everyone who's involved in the IndiePass or works with it, but you're…00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:18.000Stuart Winchester: Main focus, I think, now, is on Snowvana, which… I copied this language, I don't want people to think I'm being corny, when I say it's a winter kickoff festival. I copied that from your press release, because I didn't really know what… like, I want to call it a ski show.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:25.000Stuart Winchester: but you seem to not want to call it a ski show. So, what is… what is Snovana, and…00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.000Doug Fish: Well, that's a ski show.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.000Stuart Winchester: And what are you trying to accomplish with it?00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000Doug Fish: Good, good.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:43.000Doug Fish: It's all those things. It's a enhanced ski swap. You know, you can call it anything you want, but, um, we started Savannah in 2016, so this is our 10th anniversary, and, um.00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:54.000Doug Fish: You know, Snowvana is a place for everyone to gather at the beginning of the season, you know, and we certainly didn't invent that. I think Warren Miller did.00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:10.000Doug Fish: originally, and I remember as a kid going to Warren Miller films, and I was just in awe of of all that, and it was a just, you know, getting stoked for the coming season. It was just an annual pilgrimage.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, over the years there's been, um.00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:31.000Doug Fish: you know, hundreds of ski shows, 50 ski shows across the country, big shows. And you know we we I have always been involved in events. I was in the concert business for almost 20 years, and my.00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:34.000Doug Fish: At the beginning of my career.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:46.000Doug Fish: And, uh, I just, you know, when I was a kid and was in high school, we used to, you know, put on keggers and sell cups for a buck. So, you know, events are in my blood, and I love it, and…00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:27:46.000 --> 00:28:01.000Doug Fish: you know, when I sold the IndyPass, I sold my marketing agency, but I kept Snowvana, because, you know, I thought it'd be fun to keep it going, and… and uh… the young man who…00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:06.000Doug Fish: helped me, um, helped me, um.00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.000Doug Fish: Grow the Indy Pass.00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.000Doug Fish: Didn't want to go with Indy Pass. He didn't want to move to Colorado.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:19.000Doug Fish: So I said, well, why don't you come and run Snowball? And we'll keep that going.00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:26.000Doug Fish: And it was actually his idea to, um, to expand it. He said, you know, I think this is a model that we can scale.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:38.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, I looked at him, I said, okay, you do all the work, and I'll help with the marketing, and I'll finance the operation, and, you know, here we are.00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.000Doug Fish: That was, uh.00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:44.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so you're doing… you started this 10 years ago, and you're taking it around the country.00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:50.000Stuart Winchester: But you said ski shows have been around forever, right? So, you said there's been 50, 100 ski shows.00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: How is…00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: What happened to all those shows? Aren't they still there? Are you still competing with them?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: And if so, it doesn't seem like a… like a market that's super ripe for disruption, right? Like, once you…00:28:58.000 --> 00:28:59.000Doug Fish: Here.00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:16.000Stuart Winchester: have a ski show, you kind of own the market, it would seem like. So, I guess rewind for us a little bit, maybe I should have started there. What have ski shows traditionally been in America, and.00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.000Stuart Winchester: What's happened to them over time?00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:31.000Doug Fish: Well, ski shows have been, you know, what's Nirvana? It was kind of a kickoff festival, a gear sale, and I think they kind of collapsed under their own weight.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:40.000Doug Fish: You know, the Windy City Ski Show had a 40-year run. The Boston Ski and Snowboard Expo had a 60-year run.00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:49.000Doug Fish: uh, the Denver show. There's been ski shows in all the major northern markets, even in, you know, Dallas had a big show for many, many years, Atlanta.00:29:49.000 --> 00:30:03.000Doug Fish: And, um, but the cost of putting on these shows, these big shows, 100,000 square foot shows, is just too much. And, uh, at the same time, as these big shows started to go away.00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:18.000Doug Fish: ski swaps proliferated, you know, in every gymnasium and, you know, high school cafeteria across the country. You know, small ski resorts have a ski swap and a kickoff, you know, festival in the fall.00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.000Doug Fish: All over the country, there must be hundreds of ski swaps.00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:39.000Doug Fish: And so we looked at that and said, well, you know, ski swaps are great, but you can't get out of there fast enough. You know, when there you rifle through all the stuff and maybe you find a gym and you get a good deal, but, you know, there's no reason to stick around.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:55.000Doug Fish: And what we try to do is create a festival atmosphere. We still have the ski swap. We have a consignment swap, which is a fundraiser for a local nonprofit. And then we have a huge gear sale and we work with local retailers.00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:04.000Doug Fish: So, you know, there's a lot to choose from, but there's lots of really good deals. And, um, but there's…00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:16.000Doug Fish: you know, there's fun stuff to do, too. We have films, we have live music, we have a bar. Um, you know, we do stupid stuff like, uh, frozen t-shirt contests and barefoot skis.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:19.000Doug Fish: Um, so…00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.000Doug Fish: Yeah, there's just, you know, there's a lot of fun activities happening.00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.000Doug Fish: And, um…00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:38.000Stuart Winchester: So, so, so that's, that's all right, that's all right. So.00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.000Doug Fish: Sorry, I got interrupted too.00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.000Stuart Winchester: Is there a… is there an inflection point when the ski…00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:54.000Stuart Winchester: show stopped working. I want to point to COVID in 2020 that probably killed a lot of them for a year and then forever, but that's probably too simple of an explanation.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:00.000Doug Fish: Yeah, COVID I think was, you know, put a fork in a lot of the big shows.00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:08.000Doug Fish: Um, you know, a lot of promoters decided not to… not to come back. Um, but, you know, I think that the…00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:15.000Doug Fish: It's very tough. These municipal convention centers are just extremely expensive.00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:27.000Doug Fish: and I think you know that's that was part of it. And you know, online sales. And you know all the all the things that kill retail right? Because these are retail events.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:37.000Doug Fish: And so, you know, we kind of, we took a year off for COVID too. In 2020, nobody was doing events.00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:42.000Doug Fish: Well, we came back in 2021 and it was our best show. We were the first.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:54.000Doug Fish: show to come back and give it a go in 21 at the Oregon Convention Center. And the place was packed, and it was because people were just starving for.00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:11.000Doug Fish: you know, human connection. You know, they've been cooped up in their house for a year, and they came out in droves. And, you know, this is what, you know, these shows give us, is that human connection.00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000Stuart Winchester: Something.00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:21.000Doug Fish: You know you can buy skis online. You can buy anything online. But you know the the community comes together and and.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:28.000Doug Fish: It's, you know, we call it AI for the ski business, authentic interaction.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:33.000Doug Fish: You know, we need more of that, not less of it. And it's…00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.000Doug Fish: It's just a it's a cool thing.00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:51.000Stuart Winchester: So how are you getting around the cost piece, though? I mean, if you want to — they left Chicago because of cost. It seems like that's because Chicago costs a lot. So you're going into Boston this year, and we'll talk about that in a minute. That's not a cheap market.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:00.000Doug Fish: No, well, we're going into the suburbs. We're hitting the suburbs now, you know, we're in West Seattle, in a suburb of Seattle.00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.000Doug Fish: Uh, we're in a suburb of Milwaukee and Franklin, Wisconsin, and we're in a suburb of Boston, out in Marlboro. It's about 40 minutes west of town.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:19.000Doug Fish: And they call it, uh, West Metro. And, um, you know, these venues are smaller.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.000Doug Fish: They're about 50,000 square feet versus 100.00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:37.000Doug Fish: and they're way less expensive. We don't have to deal with union. You know the cost of a union labor, and you know nothing against unions. But.00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:52.000Doug Fish: they can drive the cost up. And and you know, General Motors and Ford, you know, they can do an auto show there. No problem. They've they've got deep pockets. We can't. And I think that's why some of these big shows, you know, finally threw in the towel.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:46.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:59.000Doug Fish: And, you know, the venues we're in, they're not as fancy. We're in a World War II airplane hangar in Seattle.00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:14.000Doug Fish: you know, at a in a in a park in West Seattle. It's a really cool building. But believe me, you know, it's it's it's not fancy. And so that's the that's the difference. And and.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:25.000Doug Fish: we're able to charge 5 bucks in advance. Kids are free. The booth cost is reasonable for for vendors, and.00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.000Doug Fish: You know, it works.00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you… the timeline's interesting for those who are following along. So you started Snovana in 2016, launched Indie in 2019. I'm curious…00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:44.000Stuart Winchester: how one may have fueled the other. In other words, and I know you've been in skiing and in the ski industry for decades, but…00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: Once you…00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:58.000Stuart Winchester: established IndiePass, and you made all these connections all over the country, I have to imagine that greased the wheels a little bit for Snowvana, because a big part of this, and we'll talk about this in a minute, is.00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:07.000Stuart Winchester: when you go there, most of the regional ski areas have booths set up. And not just the Independents, it's Vail and Altera, I've been at a bunch of the ones that I've been to.00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: In their mountains, in the bigger mountains, all over the place, so… so…00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think, I guess…00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:24.000Stuart Winchester: I guess the question is, how did IndiePass fuel the growth of Snowvana, or do you think that this would be taking off the way it is either way?00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:33.000Doug Fish: Oh, I think Snowvana and the work we were doing at the agency with a number of ski resorts all led to the.00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:36.000Doug Fish: the idea behind the Indy Pass.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000Doug Fish: And certainly the IndyPass connections that I've made have helped us expand.00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:52.000Doug Fish: Snowball on it. There's no question. You know, we just we're moving into the Boston market this year for the 1st time, and we have 37 resorts signed up.00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:59.000Doug Fish: That's pretty good for a first-year show. We have 70 resorts across the country. I think it's closer to 80 now.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:08.000Doug Fish: And, you know, it's the only place where you're gonna see, uh, Epic Pass, Icon Pass, and Indy Pass all in the same room.00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:09.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:16.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, that's the way it should be. You know, we want to be Switzerland and invite everyone in, because that's what the consumer wants.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:27.000Doug Fish: you know, people want to want to interact with all those companies. And and so yeah, indie pass. There's no question it. It helped us.00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.000Doug Fish: You know.00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.000Doug Fish: break into new markets.00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: So if you look at the four markets you're in this year and, you know, Portland is the logical one, that's your home base and has been for a long time. Then you have Seattle, you have Milwaukee in the Midwest, and you have, you know, we'll call it Boston or New England or whatever you want to. It's in Mass.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:55.000Stuart Winchester: Right? So, one thing I always appreciated about the Indy Pass is that you didn't just make it a Western Pass, you went into the Midwest right away.00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:13.000Stuart Winchester: You went into New England right away. So talk about each of those four markets and, and why it makes sense to do ski shows there because for, for example, in the Midwest, you could have, you could have gone to Detroit, you could have gone to Grand Rapids, you could have gone to Chicago, you could have gone to Indianapolis.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: chose Milwaukee, which is, you know, everyone's heard of Milwaukee, but it's not necessarily, like, the capital of Midwest, like Chicago is. So just talk us through those markets and your…00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:29.000Stuart Winchester: Slow expansion across the country, and you're kind of thinking behind where you're choosing to do this.00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:40.000Doug Fish: Yeah, good question. Um, so Seattle was a no-brainer. You know, we knew that we were drawing people out of Seattle for the Portland show. It's three, three and a half hours to Seattle.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:48.000Doug Fish: And we were drawing a pretty good crowd, so… uh, there hasn't been a show in Seattle for a decade. It's a great ski market, you know, they have…00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:55.000Doug Fish: 3 phenomenal resorts within an hour of downtown Seattle, Stevens, Crystal.00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:11.000Doug Fish: Summit. That's no qualming help at all. So you know, we found a venue up there that was affordable, you know, an old airplane hangar. And you know, we put a show up there, and it did well. And so we thought, Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:18.000Doug Fish: Uh, we didn't really want to go to California, uh, so we started looking east because.00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.000Stuart Winchester: You, you didn't wanna go to California, why not? I mean, that's a huge market.00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:30.000Doug Fish: Um, yeah, it is a huge market, and, you know, maybe we'll go to the Bay Area. There's a big show down in LA called Ski Dazzle that's still going, a big show.00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.000Doug Fish: And, um…00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:44.000Doug Fish: Uh, but to my knowledge, nothing significant in Northern California, so we may go there someday. But, um, you know, where we… where we went, it's really…00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:52.000Doug Fish: you know, I knew that the Indy Pass was going to be successful back east because there's so many resorts, and more importantly, so many people.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.000Doug Fish: And, and so.00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:03.000Doug Fish: We started looking to the east and Milwaukee, you may think, well, that's kind of a weird place.00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:23.000Doug Fish: Wisconsin's the number four ski state in the country in terms of number of ski resorts. And Michigan is number three. So, you know, or maybe it's number two, but yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of passion in the Midwest. And I knew that from working with the resorts out there.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.000Stuart Winchester: It's 2.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:35.000Doug Fish: you know, Rick Schmitz has been a great ally and supporter of mine, and you know we've been friends for many, many years, and he said, Hey.00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.000Doug Fish: Uh, come and do a show in Milwaukee, and I'll help you promote it, and…00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:54.000Doug Fish: you know, there just happens to be a big sports complex right there at the base of Crystal Ridge, which he owns. And, um, you know, they had space that would work for a show, so we popped a show in there, and it worked.00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:10.000Doug Fish: Um, and then we were all set to go into Chicago next, you know, kind of an eastward progression, uh, either Chicago or Detroit, and, um, I got a call.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:17.000Doug Fish: from a friend of mine in New England. They said, Hey, Snowbound is leaving Boston.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.000Doug Fish: You guys should come out here and do a show.00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:38.000Doug Fish: And I thought, oh my gosh, that's the best ski show market in the country, you know, it's been going for 65 years. And so Quinn McIntyre and I jumped on a plane in early December, when there was absolutely no snow, by the way, in the West.00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:58.000Doug Fish: And so we, of course, took our gear, and we spent a week in New England skiing some phenomenal powder at Loon, and Jay Peak, and Bretton Woods, and Black Mountain, and, you know. But we also, you know, met with a few venues back there, and found one that made sense out in Marlboro.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:09.000Doug Fish: Uh, a nice suburb of… of Boston, and… and made the decision right then, okay, we're gonna do this. We signed a 3-year lease, or 3-year contract for… for the space.00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:14.000Doug Fish: And here we are. We're in Boston.00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:19.000Stuart Winchester: So, so to, so to clarify for listeners, Snowbound still exists. It moved to the Mohegan Sun.00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:23.000Stuart Winchester: Casino in Connecticut. So that show, indeed, will still go on.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:29.000Doug Fish: Yes. Yeah, they didn't go away, they just moved… they just changed locations, and… and they're a couple hours from Boston now, so…00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so…00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000Doug Fish: Thank you.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000Doug Fish: Go ahead.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:48.000Stuart Winchester: So each of these shows you go to and, you know, the gear is great and I'm sure that's why a lot of people go. I'm obviously super into the ski area, so when I go and I look at the deals tab on Snovana.com, the first thing I see at the top of each.00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: list of ski areas that will be there, and their deals are free lift tickets for Willamette Pass, when you're out in the Western shows, uh, I believe in the Midwest, you get one free at Little Switz, or Nordic, or Crystal Ridge, then out East, it's Black Mountain Maine, and there's some others as well, I'm just…00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:02.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.000Doug Fish: Okay.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.000Stuart Winchester: Highlighting some. So, talk a little bit about…00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:25.000Stuart Winchester: that, because, I mean, you pay $5 to get in, and this is… it's funny, because it's kind of a throwback to the pre-pass era, when you kind of have to collect your own pass, and find all these coupons, and, you know, Warren Miller would have, like, a free ticket to Sugarbush or whatever, so… so just talk a little bit about that, and what.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.000Doug Fish: Yeah, right.00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.000Stuart Winchester: attendees can expect to find their deals wise.00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.000Doug Fish: Oh, yeah. Well, that's what motivates people is deals. We say the deals are great and the stoke is free.00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.000Doug Fish: And yeah, I, you know.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:45.000Doug Fish: Can't help but mention in Boston, we have Black Mountain of Maine.00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.000Doug Fish: Neshoba.00:43:47.000 --> 00:44:03.000Doug Fish: and Mcintyre, all giving away free lift tickets for your with your admission. And yeah, so 5 bucks, or for 5 bucks you probably get. I don't know. That's 200 bucks worth of lift tickets, and that that's before you know all the other swag that people are giving away.00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, sure.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:14.000Doug Fish: So, yeah, I mean, it takes a lot to get people off the couch to come down and park and, you know, go to an event. And, excuse me.00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:19.000Doug Fish: So we try and pack as much value into the ticket as we can. Um…00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:39.000Doug Fish: And all the resorts are there with deals. There'll be 37 resorts in Boston and 70 across the country. They're all offering deals of some kind, whether they're selling a season pass for a discount or a three pack or a daily lift ticket.00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.000Doug Fish: And that's what people want.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000Stuart Winchester: 8. Yep.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:52.000Doug Fish: And, you know, those are just the lift tickets. The gear is… the deals on the gear is what really brings people in.00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:06.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, we can… I can confidently say that we've got some of the best selection of new and slightly used gear for 40% to 80% off.00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:14.000Doug Fish: And, you know, we spend all summer collecting it from manufacturers, from reps, from, you know, demo fleets.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:30.000Doug Fish: And the retailers that we work with in each market, they also, you know, they bring last year's stuff that didn't sell. They bring maybe their lease fleet that, you know, they're retiring. And there's just some incredible deals, and…00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:36.000Doug Fish: You know, people will walk out saving hundreds of thousands of dollars.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:40.000Doug Fish: If they can spend the time, you know, looking around.00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so, lip ticket deals, gear deals, another thing you'll find there, uh, at least at the Boston show, is me and I will be doing live interviews on Friday with Eric Mogenson, the owner of IndiePass and IntoBenny. Then on Saturday…00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:13.000Stuart Winchester: I will be hosting live on stage at Snovana Boston, or Suburban Boston, or New England, or whatever you want to call it. The owner of Killington, Phil Gross, and also the president, Mike Solomano, who I've had on my podcast before, but this will be our first live event. This is the third time I've done this sort of event.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.000Doug Fish: Uh-huh.00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:20.000Stuart Winchester: For Snowvana, I did one last year with Lonnie Gleiberman of Mount Bohemia at the Milwaukee show, and I did one.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:29.000Stuart Winchester: I think maybe it was the year… two years before that, in Portland, with a panel of general managers. It's been a lot of fun, and… and, you know, that's a…00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:46.000Stuart Winchester: That's a disclosure. I've worked, I guess, for Snowvana because these, you know, I don't do these things for free. It's, it's a, it's a business, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a business deal. And, um, and those things take a lot of work, as you know, but, but that, that's just one example. All right.00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000Doug Fish: No.00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.000Stuart Winchester: Talk about just…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:59.000Stuart Winchester: I guess quickly just run through the dates of the other shows, and the sorts of things that people can expect to be on the stages, or other things I haven't mentioned yet.00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000Doug Fish: Excuse me.00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:08.000Doug Fish: We don't spend a lot of time with speakers. You're kind of the only one, Stu.00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:12.000Stuart Winchester: That's not true. Sean Suttner, my friend, is doing one the next day.00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:12.000Doug Fish: Yeah, the great Sean Sutner.00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:23.000Doug Fish: Yeah, Sean Suttner from the Worcester Gazette and Telegram will be there on Sunday interviewing the ownership team from Wachusett.00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:21.000Stuart Winchester: Crowley's.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:42.000Doug Fish: But yeah, I mean, we have live music. We've got, you know, frozen T-shirt contests this year. We're launching the pray for snow dance contests. And we've got this thing called the Sumo Bowl. It's a inflatable boxing ring and 2 inflatable beer cans. You put these on your body, and.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:50.000Doug Fish: you try to knock your buddy down, and if you do, you're entered to win a pair of skis. I mean, it's just stupid stuff, but people love it.00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right.00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:04.000Doug Fish: And so those are happening at all the shows. Great gear sales, lots of resorts, free lift tickets. The great Stu Winchester in Boston this year.00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:15.000Doug Fish: And and then, you know, we've got this thing called the cream of the swap. It is a special section in the gear sale.00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.000Stuart Winchester: Don't oversell it.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:30.000Doug Fish: in the ski swap where we feature a lot of higher end product, mostly, you know, brand new 2627 demo skis. It's all mount. They're all mounted. They've been skied 2 or 3 times.00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:38.000Doug Fish: And there's just some incredible deals there, 40% to 50% off on essentially brand new gear.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:53.000Doug Fish: And, um, so you'll find those features at all of the shows. Each market, you know, had some slight differences and, you know, based on what's going on locally and how the venue's laid out, but…00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:03.000Doug Fish: You can go to our website and check out what's different in each show if you want, what the different deals are. All the deals are listed.00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:10.000Doug Fish: Uh, that, you know, the resorts are giving away, or the retailers are giving away for, you know, discounting.00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so don't hold me to this, because they could change, so check the website, please, before you go. But right now, I'm scheduled to interview Al… Excuse me.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Eric on Friday, November 6th at 5.30pm Eastern, and Phil Gross and Mike Solomano of Killington at 2pm on Saturday, November 7th. Those are in Marlboro, Massachusetts. So the… the only thing that I think we can hold Doug to at this point.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: is… is the dates. So, Seattle, Washington, October 16th to 18th, at Hangar 30 in Magnuson Park.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:50.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the Portland show is October 23rd to 25th at Portland Expo Center, where it's been for several years.00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:49:50.000 --> 00:50:06.000Stuart Winchester: The show that I'll be at will be in Marlboro, Massachusetts, November 6th to 8th at the Royal Plaza Trade Center, and you wrap the season in Franklin, Wisconsin at the Crystal Ridge Ski Area, or the Mosh Performance Center, November 13th through 15th, and again, we won't.00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:13.000Stuart Winchester: resorts and everything else, because I'd imagine you're adding more all the time. You do have a special treat for my listeners, Doug.00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.000Doug Fish: Yes, we do.00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:16.000Stuart Winchester: If they want to go to any of those, right?00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:22.000Doug Fish: Yeah. Thank you, Stu, for having me on, and thank you to your listeners for, you know, listening to this podcast.00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:30.000Doug Fish: Um, if you want to go to Snow Vaughan and check it out, because you're a fan of Stuart Winchester, you can get a free ticket.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:47.000Doug Fish: And oh, the code. So there's a promo code. Go to our website, snovana.com, and, you know, click on Buy Ticket, and the promo code that'll get you a free ticket is THESTORM26. THESTORM, all lowercase, 26. You should put that up on the screen.00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:49.000Doug Fish: Stu, um…00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:51.000Stuart Winchester: I will have my editor do that.00:50:50.000 --> 00:51:02.000Doug Fish: Okay, good. And, uh, yeah, get a free ticket, come down, get some, you know, some swag, some free lift tickets, and find a deal on a pair of skis, or a snowboard.00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, any… so that's for this year…00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: You have any sense of where you want to go next?00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:14.000Doug Fish: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we've got Philadelphia booked for 2027 through 2019.00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:13.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:33.000Doug Fish: We will be in the King of Prussia suburb of Philly. Quinn McIntyre, my colleague, is from Philadelphia, so he's pretty stoked about that. And so we'll be there, and then, you know, we're looking at some other potential.00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:34.000Doug Fish: expansions.00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:40.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, and do you anticipate these 4 locations returning for 27, or is it too soon to say?00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:55.000Doug Fish: Oh, yeah, we anticipate all of them just, you know, going gangbusters this year, and we'll be back, but, you know, it's like an election. You never know how it's gonna go until election day, and uh…00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:07.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, Doug. Well, look, I appreciate you coming on the show again. I never know where I'm gonna see you next. You mentioned you were in New England last December, and I had gone up there for the Ski New Hampshire media event they hold every December, and…00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:56.000Doug Fish: So…00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:23.000Stuart Winchester: I turned around at one point, and there's Doug Fish and Quinn walk through the door. I was like, the last thing I… the last people I expected to see at the Ski New Hampshire media night, because you guys are usually, uh, locked into the West Coast at that time of year, but… but it was a pleasant surprise, so, uh, next time I see you, hopefully.00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.000Doug Fish: Bye.00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:19.000Doug Fish: Yeah. Okay.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:28.000Doug Fish: Yeah, hopefully it will, Stu, and it's always a pleasure. It's great to be back on the show.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:33.000Stuart Winchester: You too, man. Talk to you soon.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Doug Fish, founder of IndiePass and Snovana.00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:56.000Stuart Winchester: Let's do a little quick reader react, listener react, and then we'll get outta here for today. So there you got some reaction to the podcast that I put out on Monday with Pajarito, New Mexico, general manager Jason Bellamy.00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Gary Luft says, as a New Mexico local, I am pumped about Powerito getting these upgrades. I've been a pass holder at Ski Santa Fe, but this year I'm going with MCP's Power Pass. Thanks to Stuart for giving some attention to our great unknown.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: to those outside of New Mexico, mountains. You're welcome, Gary. I, uh, love all ski areas, and I'm sorry I have not given more love to New Mexico in the past, though I have done a couple of Taos podcasts. So the Power Pass, for those who.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: don't know what Gary's talking about is… is Mountain Capital Partners owns about a dozen ski areas, including two down in Chile, and… and…00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:48.000Stuart Winchester: The power pass is, is basically their epic pass, right? It's the unlimited pass at all of their mountains, not unlimited at the Chilean ones, but you can see all the footnotes on their website. Uh, the point is it, it, there's three different versions and the cheapest version, it's 4 49 right now, I believe.00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:05.000Stuart Winchester: gets you unlimited access to Pajaritos, Sapapu, and Sandia Peak in New Mexico, and it gets you quite a bit of access at MCP's other resorts as well. The full unlimited version is unlimited at all of MCP's U.S. mountains, including really, really good ones like Purgatory, Arizona Snow Bowl.00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:18.000Stuart Winchester: I've also got Lee Canyon on there, which is a super gorgeous ski area outside of Las Vegas I talked about the other day. And again, the PowerEater upgrades he's referring to are… PowerEater's just putting in this massive snowmaking system that's…00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:23.000Stuart Winchester: Doubling is a fire suppression system, so it's, uh, it's super… it's a…00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:40.000Stuart Winchester: Partnership with local governments that they're doing this through. So it's, it's a really cool model that hopefully other ski areas around the West can learn from and copy. Jeremiah Kay says, interesting episode. I think wildfire mitigation will be an increasingly important component of helping get snowmaking permitted in the West.00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:50.000Stuart Winchester: 100% agree. Jeremiah Kay continues, The ski school and MCP episodes back-to-back got me thinking about urban opportunities to learn and progress as a skier.00:54:50.000 --> 00:55:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mostly because I always thought MCP should acquire the Outpost Ice Rink at the base of the Sandia Tram, and put their version of the indoor part of Woodward in that facility.00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:13.000Stuart Winchester: Would love an update episode on the state, urban, indoor… uh, state, I think he's saying state of urban slash indoor ski areas. I know you covered Big Snow well, not sure what happened to Alpine X.00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: Much like Epic and Icon add small feeder hills, I wonder if they will add something like Snowbond to a past product.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: A little surprised we don't have Woodward Brooklyn in a warehouse somewhere. Yeah, I think, Jeremiah, that that would get back to Doug's earlier comment about why the urban ski shows mostly died. It's just the expense. You don't… and the Brooklyn warehouse, as you well know.00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.000Stuart Winchester: is not inexpensive.00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:55.000Stuart Winchester: thing to find these days, even though they still look like they're 150 years old, because they are. I don't know what happened to AlpineX, either. I check in with them for an update once in a while, and they keep answering my emails, but there's nothing to report. I would imagine they're caught up either in permitting.00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: or financing hell, and probably both. Continuing, Allison says, this pod does a great job showing the appeal of smaller, out-of-the-way resorts. Thank you very much, Allison. That is a core part of the storm. I love ski areas, large and small. Patrick says, I had to rewind to double-check after listening to the first 10 minutes.00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:30.000Stuart Winchester: You recapped the exciting things MCP has done while mentioning every ski area except Arizona Snowball. Later, it made more sense. You discussed Snowball specifically with Jason and called out the potential for Power Rito to follow the same transformative storyline, and you probably planned that all along.00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:42.000Stuart Winchester: This was a great interview about a skier I'd love to check out one of these days, and maybe snowmaking will make it more feasible. Yeah, you know, Patrick, it's interesting. There's a little nuance there in that that big snowmaking project?00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:57.000Stuart Winchester: I believe all happened before MCP bought Snowbowl, so I hesitate to give them credit for it. I do give them credit for all the things they've done since, you know, putting in the Chadala and.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:12.000Stuart Winchester: really revamping that ski area, and… and uh… I think the power pass and everything else has been great for it, and I think MCP's doing a… a great job across their portfolio, so… so you're right. It was… it was, uh, something I didn't get to till later, and… and I'm always…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit…00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: indecisive about how much credit they should give her, but I am working on a separate podcast that's going to focus on that, so stand by for that.00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.000Stuart Winchester: Scott Abraham…00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:39.000Stuart Winchester: Bajarito, Powerito, Powerino, don't care what AI calls it, had one of the best powder days of my life 15 years ago or so. Girlfriend in Santa Fe, who worked at Los Alamos, drove her up on Thursday and headed for the mountain, 2 feet afresh since they closed Monday.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:54.000Stuart Winchester: Over the groom, helly skiing quality, amazingly friendly locals who were delighted to show off their mountain to the tourists from Seattle, and green chili on my inexpensive burger, of course. Might have to visit her again this winter and sneak up on Thursday. Alright, Scott's a tough critic, so…00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:03.000Stuart Winchester: if he likes something, uh, that's a good sign that it's probably pretty good. So that's an endorsement, uh, from someone who typically complains about everything.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:20.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Aiden says, in the last comment, I was referring to Scaria operations and management programs when he said SROM, or similar at several colleges. Thanks again for the great work. So Aiden was referring to a previous comment he made in an episode when he said, uh, you should find out more about SROM programs in your…00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:27.000Stuart Winchester: And I said, you're right, I should, because I have no idea what they are. All right, thank you, Aiden, for clarifying that. That will be our show for today.00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:43.000Stuart Winchester: Please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Ski Newsletter. You can start with the free tier and the very best way to up to support my mission of independent ski journalism is to upgrade to the paid tier, which will give you the ability to interact with the podcast and all of the written content.00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:50.000Stuart Winchester: below the paywall, which typically is about 80% of the storm. Been a little slow lately, but like I said, it will pick up.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000Stuart Winchester: You can rep the storm.00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:05.000Stuart Winchester: like this hat if you're watching, uh, with hat, shirt, hoodie, go to stormskiing.myshopify.com. Please follow the storm on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube, at Storm Ski Journal. Till next time, stay well, stay safe.00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:21.000Stuart Winchester: I'm Stuart Winchester, and I'll talk to you again very soon. No show tomorrow on Thursday. I'm recording a couple on Friday. We'll put one out Friday, one out Saturday. That's the plan anyway. General managers of Mount Southington, Connecticut, and our good friend Dennis Eshbaugh.00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:25.000Stuart Winchester: who has run Holiday Valley in New York for decades.00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:32.000Stuart Winchester: Till next time, stay well, stay safe. I'm Stuart Winchester, and I'll talk to you again very soon.00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:36.000Stuart Winchester: All right, sorry, you'll have to smooth me out a little at.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so, uh…00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.000Stuart Winchester: Just a couple notes.00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:42.000Stuart Winchester: Um…00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:44.000Stuart Winchester: There's, uh…00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:48.000Stuart Winchester: At the end, Doug says a discount code.00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:55.000Stuart Winchester: Storm, lowercase, 26, and he wants us… he said, put that up on your screen. I said, I'll ask my editor to do that. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

It would not be difficult to locate a photo of The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast drinking canned Miller Lite shirtless in a lake while wearing a backward baseball cap. There is therefore nothing I can say here that can hurt anyone more than I've already hurt myself.Vail Resorts reported fourth-quarter and end-of-fiscal-2026 earnings yesterday. I'm no financial analyst, but the numbers are what I would call “not good”:[Epic] Pass product unit sales through September 18, 2026 for the upcoming 2026/2027 North American ski season decreased approximately 12%, days sold decreased approximately 10% and sales dollars, inclusive of sales and admissions taxes, decreased approximately 6%, as compared to the prior year period through September 19, 2025.Which, whatever - the only Epic Pass numbers that really matter are the ones that Vail Resorts reports in December, after the product goes off sale. Up until two years ago, annual sales ranged from “all right” to “pretty good” to “damn-I-guess-making-a-season-pass-cheaper-than-a-frozen-burrito-moves-passes.” Unit sales - meaning the number of Epic Pass “products” (we include Epic Day) sold - increased every year from the pass' introduction in 2008-09 until 2024-25. Even then, unit sales only declined by two percent:Notably, Epic Pass sales dollars (right-hand column above), have never declined year-over-year. That could change this year.Vail executives seemed oddly fatalistic about declining Epic Pass numbers. CEO Rob Katz noted, during yesterday's earnings call, that destination guests' hesitation to buy (mostly, he implied) Epic Day Passes after last year's crummy winter was an opportunity for Vail to “lean in to be more competitive on lift ticket pricing.” It's all very disconcerting: after working for years to diminish the lift ticket as an Idiot Tax product-of-last-resort-that-will-either-force-you-to-buy-an-Epik-Pass-or-give-up-skiing-forever, Vail is betting on discounted lift tickets that sit well above peak rates from a decade ago to prop up financials as pass sales level off to yeah-2-million-passes-is-all-42-ski-areas-can-realistically-handle-anyway-Brah levels. Weird. Wonder what this guy thinks?McBrosephs I have takes. Just remember that when I go in on the Bros, it's more self-reflective diary than attack on American culture. Though it's also that. And when I go in on Vail, it's acknowledging the good things they've done to democratize the season pass even as the company destroyed a perfectly good product that it now wants to summon as a savior.The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast will adopt one hamster for every new paid subscriber. Just kidding hamsters are weird I once watched one give birth and systematically devour her offspring. No thanks dude I'll take the rats that live under my porch. What's good, Fat Boy? Anyway if you like skiing subscribe to my newsletter because I like it too: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Interest rates are still climbing, mortgage rates have crossed 7.5%, and the labor market remains tight despite signs that some workers are struggling to find new jobs.Mike Armstrong and Paul Lane discuss why the bond market remains under pressure, how the AI buildout is keeping parts of the economy running hot, and why higher rates are hitting housing and traditional businesses harder than data centers and chipmakers. They also break down long-term unemployment, McKinsey's warning that AI could force millions of workers into new roles, IRA mistakes that can be difficult to undo, Vail's weak ski pass sales, falling birth rates, and the privacy trade-offs behind Meta's Muse AI agent.

On October 3, Vail Health is taking a major step toward a more connected healthcare experience with the launch of Epic, one of the leading electronic medical record systems in healthcare.In this episode, Erik sits down with Julie Jackson, Chief Information Officer at Vail Health, to talk about what this change means for patients, providers and the future of healthcare in the Vail Valley.Julie explains how Epic will bring medical records and communications together across Vail Health, Colorado Mountain Medical, Shaw Cancer Center, Howard Head Sports Medicine, Vail Health Behavioral Health and Vail Health Clinics. Patients will also have access to the new MyChart portal, providing one place to manage appointments, test results, medications, bills, messages and other important health information.The conversation also explores why greater continuity of care matters, how the new system will make it easier for providers to see the bigger picture of a patient's health, and the partnership with UCHealth that is helping make this technology accessible to communities like ours.It's a significant change behind the scenes—and one that could make navigating healthcare in the Vail Valley much easier for patients and families.Julie also shares her appreciation for the staff who have spent the past year preparing for the transition and asks for patience from patients as the community makes the move to this new system.Learn more about Vail Health's transition and sign up for the MyChart portal at VailHealth.org/MyChart.

News On The Flipside Lets Talk How The Main Stream Media Has Let Down The Citizens Of The USA and how politico Cnn MS now Or Not Real Media There Cable News Iran Wants Peace New Antarctic discovery flips our entire idea of life on Earth Frontline NATO ally shares shocking take on Russian invasion threat Leaked memo points to a new US military move Two spiked spheres allegedly dragged a man toward a UFO - police later sealed off the scene Supreme Court allows Trump administration to use expanded database for potential voter purges Fighter jets scrambled to intercept Russian aircraft in NATO first Since 2021, US government logs 350+ UFO reports In Iran, talk of whether to build a nuclear bomb bursts into the open Scientists finally know what it is - the golden orb found 2 miles below the ocean has been identified after 3 year The 'Eye of Sauron': What we know about Israel's advanced technology There are probably aliens alive on Mars - the statement NASA wasn't ready to make Russian media reacts to Trump's Putin invitation The Navy's sixth-generation carrier fighter finally breaks cover Democrats lose it over JD Vance's Astronomers may have found alien megastructures Mike Pompeo reacts to Iran's proposed plan to end the war Russian state media shares chilling plan for new war with Lithuania: 'It will be short' Trump has a call to make: Iran just dropped a new plan to end the war and open the Strait of Hormuz US F-22s and Super Hornets are getting a new missile - China is the reason the Pentagon rushed its development This is why no one dares start a nuclear war Putin says all Ukraine peace proposals on the table, warns of Russian retaliation Scientists find microbes can survive traveling from planet to planet while clinging to asteroids Canada forms emergency plans for if Trump launches an invasion: report Sponsored Spirit of Anchorage is gone: Russian sovereignty over occupied territories no longer discussed — Zelenskyy Media White House TV pool to suspend coverage of Trump events United Public Radio & UFO Paranormal Radio www.uprntalkradio.com

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast thinks that yelling “PIZZA!” and “FRENCH FRY!” at a 2-year-old superman straightlining down a green slope is a highly effective ski instruction technique. If you agree, please sign up for my newsletter:WhoBrian Bensch, founder of Snow SchoolersDate recordedSeptember 24, 2026About Snow SchoolersSnow Schoolers, per its website, is an “independent ski school program” that teaches lessons “at any mountain where we've established a revenue-sharing partnership with the ski area.” Skiers sign up for lessons on their Pet Rectangles, like this:Why I interviewed himThat sounds pretty neat, right? Let me go see if Snow Schoolers teaches at my favorite mountain. Snow Schoolers probably does not teach at your favorite mountain. Unless your favorite mountain is 222-vertical-foot Granlibakken, which is about five feet away from 6,000-acre Palisades Tahoe, or 100 vertical-foot Frisco Adventure Park, tucked off highway 9, after 1.5 million-ish skiers exit I-70 on their way to nearby Breckenridge.That is not an indictment of small ski areas, which I love, or Snow Schoolers' business model, which I also love. Rather, it's my way of saying that the only way to sign up for ski school at Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge is through Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge. With the strange, grandfathered-in exception of the strange, cobbled-together ski bazaar that is Summit at Snoqualmie in Washington, all major American ski areas (so far as I know) operate with a monopoly over ski school operations on their property. In ways subtle and aggressive, they police and ban rogue instructors who would offer discounted lessons on resort property.There are probably ways to break this system, either through the courts or legislative amendment of the Forest Service leases that 125 U.S. ski areas operate on. Such change sounds radical only in an American context - most European ski areas already operate with multiple independent competing ski schools onsite. Over the past 20 years, technology has challenged monopolies across American commerce. Sports and concert tickets and taxi rides offer two prime examples of power shifting from one central operator to many operators, with benefits and drawbacks for the consumer. Perhaps we will get there with ski school. For now, I see a more practical path for an asset-light, app-based, independent ski school like Snow Schoolers - as the costs of labor, utilities, infrastructure, and insurance pile up, perhaps outsourcing the operation of a ski school is more practical for many smaller, independent ski areas than establishing and maintaining one of their own. That is what you get at Granlibakken and Frisco: Snow Schoolers pays the ski areas a share of each lesson, essentially as rent for the right to operate a ski school on their property. And Granlibakken and Friso don't have to worry about hiring instructors and organizing lessons. There are probably 100 under-resourced ski areas in America where this model could work tomorrow. Brian and I discuss why Snow Schoolers works where it does, and why the model has been slow to spread.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today founded Snowschoolers in 2014 with the mission to make skiing and riding affordable and accessible for average Americans.00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:11.000Stuart Winchester: and to pay snow sports pros a sustainable living wage.00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: Today, Snowschoolers operates at Grand Lebakken in Lake Tahoe, and Frisco Adventure Park in Colorado, two small ski areas.00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Last year, Snow Schoolers hosted approximately 6,000 students. He is a good friend of the Storm. He is Brian Bench. Brian, welcome to the Storm. You reached out to me very shortly after I launched in 2019 or 20, and we've been talking for years, and you've helped me out a lot.00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.000Stuart Winchester: With the…00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:45.000Stuart Winchester: digital side of things, which I'm not so good at, so it's awesome to finally get you on and talk some snow schoolers. How you doing today?00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000Brian Bensch: Doing lovely. Can't complain. Always busy, never bored.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:52.000Stuart Winchester: And that is… yeah, that is a picture out your window of Tahoe, right?00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:00.000Brian Bensch: Yes, that is a, it's called Maggie's Peak, but that's looking at the little lake just next to Emerald Bay.00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, which would be sort of north side of the lake, so you'd be looking…00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.000Brian Bensch: Oh.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.000Brian Bensch: South Tahoe, kind of on the other side of the corner, like, across from Heavenly.00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, south, right? I was… I was backwards. So… so on the… up the left side, there would be Homewood, and then up the right side would be Heavenly and Diamond Peak, and at the top is, like.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.000Brian Bensch: Correct.00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.000Brian Bensch: Mostly correct.00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Or North Star? North Star, Northwood. Okay, alright, uh, before I hurt myself, let's just get into this. So, so Brian.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.000Brian Bensch: Well, we'll get you out to Tahoe soon enough, and then your Tahoe geography will get.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:31.000Stuart Winchester: It's been a minute. So…00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: What is broken about American ski schools, and how did you try to fix it with snow schoolers?00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:45.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. So I would say similar to, you know.00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.000Brian Bensch: The the general diatribe about, you know.00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:55.000Brian Bensch: The ski industry being kind of broken with lift tickets too expensive and climate change is gonna end the world.00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:07.000Brian Bensch: Not everything is broken, but particularly the most front and center in your face resorts that you know everyone hears about, and you know, makes the quote unquote mainstream news has been broken for a while.00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:15.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, the gist is, if you roll up to, you know, a Tier 1 destination resort.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000Brian Bensch: Brooke, uh…00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:32.000Brian Bensch: Not only is lift ticket price what it is, but if you are looking for a group lesson, you're looking at a couple 100 bucks. And if you're looking for a private lesson, you're lucky if you can find anything that is under 1000 today. When we started Snow Schoolers, I remember telling people like, you know, a private lesson is $700 or $800.00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.000Brian Bensch: Well, now it's roughly double that.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:51.000Brian Bensch: And I started teaching skiing back in college at the Dartmouth Skiway shout out to Mark and the team there, and you know I thought it was the best job ever making 12 bucks an hour in college, but it is still a minimum wage hourly job.00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.000Brian Bensch: Despite the high margins that resorts take.00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, wait, wait, let's, let's pause right there. So over a thousand a day for a lesson.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: patrollers are making… I think at the Tier 1 resorts, they're probably making more than minimum wage. I think it's probably more in… at least in the 20s.00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, the, the, go ahead.00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.000Stuart Winchester: Plus tips, but, but.00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:19.000Stuart Winchester: Still, right, so you figure it's $1,200 a day for a lesson, and the instructor's getting, you know, $150 of that, or something. What… why…00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: Why does that model even exist? Like, who would even do that?00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.000Brian Bensch: Out.00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000Brian Bensch: Because…00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:31.000Stuart Winchester: Like, who would work for that? Like, when you, right? Like, why not just give your own lessons?00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:44.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, well, and there's two sides… two sides of the mark, and I, uh… outside of my passions for skiing, I consider myself sort of a marketplace, you know, guru of sorts. And, you know, on the supply side, or, like, the staffing side.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.000Brian Bensch: could ever imagine, and there's a reason why people love to teach skiing.00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000Brian Bensch: One of the, I would say.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, I'm sorry, you froze there for probably about, like, 5 seconds. Um, I don't know if you're on a hard line, or you have good Wi-Fi, or…00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.000Brian Bensch: Okay.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:11.000Brian Bensch: It's Tahoe Wi-Fi. But it's generally fine, unless it goes out and flickers, but…00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Is it?00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.000Stuart Winchester: It's Tahoe Wi-Fi.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.000Stuart Winchester: you…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:19.000Brian Bensch: I can close a couple tabs, that might help. Or we can just… I don't want you to… I know editing is tough.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.000Stuart Winchester: No, no, no, you, you, uh, can you plug in, possibly?00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.000Brian Bensch: I don't have an Ethernet.00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:31.000Stuart Winchester: You know, okay, alright. Um, yeah, let's just, yeah, try to close some stuff, and we'll keep going, and at worst case, you can, uh, go off screen.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000Brian Bensch: Yep.00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.000Brian Bensch: Sure.00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:38.000Brian Bensch: To pick back up the… the kind of…00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:54.000Brian Bensch: Why is it, you know, possible for a lesson to cost $1,200 and the instructor only keeps 20% of that? There's two components to it. The first is that, you know, historically there was a glut of ski instructors going back into the 60s, 70s, 80s.00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:10.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, the, the quintessential ski bum, uh, is and was a great job, particularly for people that, you know, get the addiction that I know we both have. Um, and so, you know, lessons didn't used to be this expensive, um, just like lift tickets didn't used to be this expensive.00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:29.000Brian Bensch: Um, and so just like being a lifty, being a ski instructor was, you know, maybe a slight step above, you know, requires more training, but it has always been the sort of an entry-level hourly position. Um, and it's certainly not the federal minimum wage at most resorts. Uh, when Vail came out, uh, post-COVID with the $20 an hour kind of cross-board raise.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:41.000Brian Bensch: Uh, that was great for the industry, not just, you know, Vail Resorts staff. Um, and… but the prevailing wage for, you know, first-year ski instructor is certainly in that $20 an hour range today.00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, we try to do things differently.00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right, but okay, so, but fundamentally to get at the…00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:55.000Stuart Winchester: at this dynamic. I'm a ski instructor. Let's say I'm a great ski instructor, right? And everybody loves me.00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.000Stuart Winchester: And I… I can see that…00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:07.000Stuart Winchester: you know, Northstar is charging $1,000 for a lesson, and they're paying me $25 an hour. I don't know what Northstar pays, so feel free to correct me, Northstar, but…00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.000Stuart Winchester: Why don't I as an instructor?00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:25.000Stuart Winchester: just say, well, I'm just gonna go on Facebook and advertise my services, and say, meet me at the Lyft at Northstar, and I'll give you a lesson for $200 for the day, because then I'm making more, and… and we're just… and the consumer's getting a better deal.00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:34.000Stuart Winchester: And then we established this one-on-one relationship. Why doesn't that marketplace exist? Why do ski areas exist?00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:42.000Stuart Winchester: How are they able to do this weird market dynamic, which sounds fundamentally unfair to the instructor?00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:57.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. Well, that question is certainly more or less exactly what I pondered 10 years ago. And how I got into this fun little project called Snowschoolers.00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:03.000Brian Bensch: was the realization that, oh my god, like, why does this exist? Um, and, you know, and…00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:08.000Brian Bensch: 10 years ago, Uber and Airbnb had just become kind of a mainstream thing.00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.000Brian Bensch: Um, and so I was like, oh.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:28.000Brian Bensch: I wonder if we could just connect instructors to students directly and have a little marketplace for ski school. At the time, I knew nothing about, you know, special use permits from the Forest Service and the ski industry broadly. You know, I'd grown up skiing, but I was just a lay consumer skier. The reality is, and very similar to.00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:36.000Brian Bensch: you know a lot of the work you've done this summer going into Forest Service kind of history. The special use permit system.00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:54.000Brian Bensch: effectively grants the resort, at least on Federal lands, where the special use permit exists, a micro monopoly over all business activity at their mountain. And it doesn't have to be that way. If you do go over to Europe, it is a much more laissez-faire free market.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:07.000Brian Bensch: Um, and most major resorts in Europe have at least four to six, you know, uh, ski schools that operate and compete, and, you know, the average lesson prices are roughly a third, and instructors keep, you know, 50 to 60% of lessons.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:19.000Brian Bensch: And so it doesn't have to be the way it is. But at at the core it is. It is because resorts have the legal right to be the only ski school of record. And.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:30.000Stuart Winchester: Right, so just to get ahead of the people who like to point out details, so North Star was a weird example for me to use because it's on private land, it's not on Forest Service land. However, it's owned by Vail Resorts, and I think what you're saying is.00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:44.000Stuart Winchester: even though not every U.S. skier is on U.S. Forest Service land, 125 of them are, it… the fact that that encompasses the majority of our ski terrain has normalized the culture of one mountain, one ski school. Is that fair?00:24:44.000 --> 00:25:01.000Brian Bensch: Correct. And there is maybe a dirty little secret of capitalism that monopolies are great businesses. So Northstar does not want six other ski schools competing and driving the price down because ski school is very, very lucrative to the at least traditional big resort ski model.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.000Stuart Winchester: So, disruptor Brian comes out and says, alright guys, get out of the way, I am gonna change the world with.00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:19.000Stuart Winchester: snow schoolers and my Uber for skiing app, which I know you don't want to call it anymore, but nonetheless, since you brought up the analogy, let's go back to 2014.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:22.000Stuart Winchester: Take us into it. What did you do and what happened?00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:32.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. In short, I would say, did a little bit of experimenting with that idea. And, you know, by the end of the first season.00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:43.000Brian Bensch: Learned pretty quickly that the ski resort management does not like the idea. And if you want to be able to ski at places that you love to ski.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:55.000Brian Bensch: it's probably a good idea to not, uh, not poke the bear too much, so to speak. Um, and so, uh, that first kind of pilot program very much led me into the, uh.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:14.000Brian Bensch: and and this it was always a snooze. This has been a side project of mine for a while. It's a I would call it a thriving small business. That 1st year I I pretended it was a startup, or I called it a startup, but never took funding and you know that 1st pilot program helped me realize that the only way, if I was going to turn this into real business.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:27.000Brian Bensch: was to find a way that was mutually beneficial for both resorts and instructors, uh, and obviously the students. Um, and that led me to, you know, how can I create a revenue share model.00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:41.000Brian Bensch: Uh, where by bringing more new skiers to the mountain, everyone benefits. Um, the resort gets to share the revenue, uh, the student gets a cheaper lesson, and the instructor gets higher pay. Um, and, uh…00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:54.000Brian Bensch: you know, by the time 2016 rolled around I was ready to quit my corporate job and give it a role, and so moved to Tahoe. And you know, without the.00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:04.000Brian Bensch: A gentleman named Brian Schilling out in Homewood. Without him taking sort of a chance on me, snow schoolers would not exist. But Homewood was coming off.00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:22.000Brian Bensch: we'll say a typical bad snow year, and had to let go a lot of their ski school staff the year prior, because I think they were open for, like, 40 days that season, and hiring was a huge priority. Like, they were rebuilding a ski school from scratch, and the reality was the pitch that resonated with Homewood.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:37.000Brian Bensch: was much less about, can we, like, you know, offer more affordable lessons and increase gear visits that way, but we need, like, we don't know how to hire instructors, we need a bunch of instructors, and this Uber model of.00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:52.000Brian Bensch: uh, pseudo-freelance instructors was attractive to them. Um, and, you know, I told them that, like, I had put up a couple ads and had, you know, 20 people apply within a few weeks, and they're like, ah, that's interesting. Um, and so that led to our first season, uh, which I would say was.00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:06.000Brian Bensch: uh, not a hands-down success at Homewood, um, but I skied nearly 100 days, and it ended up being, uh, Tahoe's second best winter of at least my young adulthood, um, and, you know, you know, no regrets at all.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, Homo's a serious mountain. I mean, right on the lake, it's dramatic, it has pretty nice chair lifts. But that didn't end up being the future, right?00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.000Stuart Winchester: How did Homewood break down, and how did you…00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: reassemble…00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Stuart Winchester: like, sort of rethink the business, uh, on a different scale, and I mean both, like, going smaller to get bigger, if that makes sense.00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:44.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. So the core hypothesis of snow schoolers was always kind of twofold. If you make lessons.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:52.000Brian Bensch: more interest or demand and potential customers when lessons are affordable.00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:09.000Brian Bensch: I think the same thing is true of lift tickets, and that's why, you know, the places that are still offering $700 lift tickets are thriving. But affordable lessons drives an outsized increase in, you know, lesson visits. And if you pay instructors well, there's no shortage of instructors you can find if you're willing to pay them well.00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:25.000Brian Bensch: What we didn't get right in that 1st year at Homewood was the affordable lesson side of things. We were able to teach lessons at Homewood, but we were offering the normal prices from the year before, which were more or less, I would say, 10% below what Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows up the road was charging.00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:41.000Brian Bensch: Um, and we were not… yeah, we taught a total of, I think, 50 lessons that season, um, which was, you know, better than zero, but certainly not enough to get me too, too excited. Um, and the kind of going smaller to get bigger.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.000Brian Bensch: Uh, it was a function of, uh…00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:57.000Brian Bensch: my my tiny little hill in the woods called Grand Lebakken, that, as someone who'd grown up skiing Tahoe, I had literally never heard of. I think I'd probably skied in Tahoe 500 days at that point.00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.000Brian Bensch: Um, but, uh…00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:02.000Stuart Winchester: And it's right by Palisades, right? It's, like, right across the street, basically.00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Brian Bensch: Not quite across the street. It is two minutes from the lake, but you can't see the lake from Grand Labaquin. So it's literally like tucked in the way, tucked kind of behind a hill. It is between Alpine Meadows and Homewood, if you look at the map. And it's roughly like 10 minutes from both of them.00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:23.000Brian Bensch: Um, and as I was winding down that first season with Homewood, I challenged myself, um.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:39.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, tried to put it on social media, but no one really cared to do a March Madness Sweet 16 circuit, because there, at the time, were 16 unique mountains in Tahoe, and Grand Lebakken was one of the last stops on that circuit, and I forget who told me it existed.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:44.000Brian Bensch: Um, but, you know, Grand Lubakken is not a ski resort. Grand Lubakken is a ski.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.000Brian Bensch: Kind of known for its lodging and accommodations business.00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, you, uh, you just froze again, but you said Grand Lebakken is a ski…00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.000Stuart Winchester: So just start over from Grand Lebakken is a ski.00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:13.000Brian Bensch: Sure. Grand Labaca is not a ski resort. It is a ski hill or a ski area, as Stuart likes to say. It is two surface lifts. It is roughly 20 acres from the bottom of the hill of Grand Labaca. You can see the entire hill, the entire mountain. What you see is what you get.00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:30.000Brian Bensch: It is not, I would say, exclusively for beginners. The Poma that goes to the top, and it's, I think, roughly 225 feet. I would put it at a solid, you know, a Jackson Hole blue. It is at least a 25 to 30 degree slope.00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:46.000Brian Bensch: and I have seen 12 year olds straight line it and almost die. So it is. It is certainly like there's enough terrain that you could do ski race like training on it, and we do a little bit of that in the winter on weekdays. But it is a ski hill.00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:57.000Brian Bensch: Um, not at all, sort of, no bells and whistles, no high-speed quads, um, just a bunny lift, uh, rope toe, and a, you know, slightly more advanced poma that goes to the top.00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:09.000Brian Bensch: And, uh, spent a good afternoon with, uh, the Parson family back in spring 2017, and I was like, this price is pretty cool, this is cute, and told them about my ideas for ski school.00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: And who are they?00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:25.000Brian Bensch: Chris Parson and Ron Parson. Ron is Chris's father, and has owned the mountain for quite a while, and what Grand Lombachman is known for is, it is more of an accommodations center. It's a lodge and conference center.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:42.000Brian Bensch: Uh, with roughly, I think, 150-ish units. Um, and the ski hill is an amenity, uh, along with their pool, along with their spa, along with, like, you know, their, you know, uh, dining areas and so forth. Um, and they've operated the ski area and sled hill, um, for…00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:55.000Brian Bensch: I think Ron is — the Parson family is going on maybe 30 years. I hope to convince him that he should come on the pod at some point. But he is —.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:12.000Brian Bensch: Their family, you know, is the quintessential mom and pop ski hill ski area sort of operators. When I met them, ski school was run mostly with Chris, who had sort of two group lesson slots a day and a piece of paper for people to sign up in the morning.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:28.000Brian Bensch: And they were like, you know, we could probably be more organized with this. And I was like, yeah, I think I can help you a little bit. And then the season ended and I went home, had made no money. So, you know, my day job has been in marketing.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:40.000Brian Bensch: for big and small tech companies for a while. Um, and so I went and had to get a big boy tech job again to, you know, pay for rent. Um, and my Tahoe ski lease was up for the season. So, I went back home.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:47.000Brian Bensch: you know, wasn't sure if Snow Solutions was going to continue, kind of just assumed it was a one-year thing, and, you know.00:33:47.000 --> 00:34:03.000Brian Bensch: you know, hadn't talked a ton with Homewood, but I knew, like we weren't gonna you know the business wasn't great. But fast forward October 1st roughly, this time of year the Gm. Gives me a call out of the blue, and I pick up. I'm now at my new day job, and I just play it cool. And I'm like, Oh, yeah.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:19.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, no, we'll run your ski school this winter. Grant Lebakken did, yeah. So the GM of Grant Lebakken picked up and said, hey, you know, we love meeting you in the spring, and you know, winter's around the corner. Let's talk about, you know, what needs to be done for you guys to run ski school for us this year.00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.000Stuart Winchester: Grand Labaquin?00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Right.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:23.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I remember going home that night being like, huh.00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:33.000Brian Bensch: This is not going to be easy because I'm working 40 to 50 hours a week now at my new job. But skiing in this space is what I love to do.00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:51.000Brian Bensch: You know, at one point, a quote on the website was the Confucius quote, “If you find a job you love, you'll never work another day.” And, you know, I said, yes, you know, porque no las dos, let's do both. Didn't tell my employer at the time.00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:06.000Brian Bensch: Because, you know, don't want to give them reason to question how much time you're putting in. But basically worked, you know, spent many nights, and I was a bad developer at the time. So everything snow schoolers is kind of built in-house from a code perspective.00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.000Stuart Winchester: Been there?00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:23.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, I just, every evening from 6 p.m. to midnight, I'd be plugging away to build the Grand Le Bacon kind of new system that we built that first year. And it worked. You know, year two, we taught.00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:38.000Brian Bensch: I think 300 plus lessons, and we did five times more revenue than year one at Homewood. And again, I was, you know, I only taught probably 2% of lessons because I had my full-time job. Christmas was a fun disaster where.00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:47.000Brian Bensch: all of a sudden, we were sold out every single day, and I was like, uh, I guess I need to figure out how to stop selling lessons, uh, because I hadn't really built that into the model the first year, because we were never sold out.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.000Stuart Winchester: Ah, okay, okay.00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:56.000Brian Bensch: But, you know, we made it work and lots of families had amazing, you know, first experiences learning to slide on snow.00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: So let me zoom out and just tell you why I think this makes sense from my point of view, and then you can color that in with with how Graham Lebakken actually achieved it. I look at…00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.000Stuart Winchester: something like the Icon Pass, and they have a partnership with Jackson Hole.00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:22.000Stuart Winchester: but Altera doesn't have to own or operate Jackson Hole, and if a lift breaks, it's not Altera's problem, but they get the benefit of Jackson Hole.00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.000Stuart Winchester: on their IconPass. Uh…00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:36.000Stuart Winchester: this model that Grand Lebakken has, there used to be hundreds of ski areas like this, just attached to resorts all across. In this part of the country, there were a ton of them, in the Catskills and the Poconos, and…00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.000Brian Bensch: Okay.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: most of them, I mean, they frankly weren't super interesting hills, but they…00:36:42.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Those resorts found that as God running a ski hill became more complex, it wasn't worth keeping all those pieces and parts as an amenity. So in the case of, of Grand Le Bacon, I, I imagine, you know, you have a couple Pomas, so your market is probably like people who wanted to come to Tahoe in the winter, but aren't necessarily skiers, but maybe want to try it.00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Right? Because no one's like, hmm, should I go to Palisades or Grand Lebakken today, right? Like it's, it's a very unique place. So, but Grand Lebakken, I mean, if they're going to have a hill, that means they also have to have, you know, a rental shop and they have to have a ski school and instructors. This basically.00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.000Stuart Winchester: Takes the whole ski school, all that labor.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000Stuart Winchester: all the infrastructure.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000Stuart Winchester: out of it, and I'd imagine you just…00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: Pay, you know, you just write them a check like a lease, basically like a forest service lease where a skier operates and they, they pay based on what they make to the government. So it, it seems to me like ski areas would love that. And I, and I could think of 100 small ski areas in the country where that would work. That's how I'm understanding this is that.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.000Stuart Winchester: Is that fair? And…00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, I I would say you more or less hit the nail on the head.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:03.000Brian Bensch: The and and the models the operating model that we've sort of developed, that we are sort of most in favor of is, we do ski school. We take full responsibility for ski school and nothing else.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000Brian Bensch: we've we've we're not obligated, or we don't have to stick with that model entirely. And at our Frisco location, Colorado. We also do all of rentals.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000Brian Bensch: And but ski school is what sort of what we love, what we care about.00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:34.000Brian Bensch: And you know, in in other past smaller partnerships we've done. We were responsible for even more of operations, grooming and parking and snow removal is.00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:40.000Brian Bensch: like very underappreciated. How time consuming, expensive those can be.00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:50.000Brian Bensch: And so I I am very thankful that Gran Lebakken and our partners at Frisco take responsibility for for grooming, and particularly grooming snowmaking.00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:00.000Brian Bensch: um, and sort of the general operations, uh, lift operations and so forth, are… are never gonna be our sweet spot. Um, and we would happily run the, like.00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:06.000Brian Bensch: like ski school is often the biggest human part of the organization, because you have a bunch of instructors.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000Brian Bensch: Uh, and you have to, like, you know, herding cats doesn't happen without effort. Um, and scheduling does not happen, uh, without good software, and a human to supervise the software. Um, and so, yeah, that's been our sweet spot. Um, I likewise, uh, think that there are at least.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:35.000Brian Bensch: a few dozen, if not hundreds, of other small ski areas, whether they're surface lift only, or just small with, like, a single fixed grip lift, that, um, that want to do a better ski school program, and we would love to talk to them.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: So, so Grand Labakin you've been with ever since, so I'm assuming they've been pretty happy with it. Let's jump across the country to another really weird ski area that probably people don't know exists, that we've been talking about, which is Frisco, which is… you pass by it on the way to Breckenridge, but you won't even see it. It's so small, like.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: You have to drive around this weird road and it's, you know, underneath a hill. And I've not skied there, but I stopped by after they were closed, uh, a couple years ago. So, so that is not attached to a resort. That's, I think, a city park. So you have a completely different demo there.00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:19.000Stuart Winchester: So who is Frisco trying to serve, and how did you meet that need? And it seems like you've had a long-term relationship with them as well.00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:29.000Brian Bensch: Yes. So we're now going to our fifth season with the town of Frisco. And so, yes, it is a municipally managed ski area and tubing park.00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:42.000Brian Bensch: You can't miss the tubing element when you're driving from getting off I-70 and heading to Breckenridge, but very few people will know that there's beginner ski and snowboarding there as well. I've been to Colorado a good handful of times.00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:48.000Brian Bensch: definitely drove by it once and didn't know they were skiing there. And you know a mutual acquaintance.00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:01.000Brian Bensch: post-COVID, when I was talking about, you know what, you know, the world's going remote, maybe I can just, you know, expand snow schoolers without me physically being there all the time. Um, and I was like, huh, have you heard of Frisco? I was like, no, what.00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:07.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, that was probably two months before our first successful season with Frisco.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:22.000Brian Bensch: Um, the audience they're serving, to your question, is not nearly as local as you might expect for being, like, a town-run hill. Uh, we certainly have some local programs, but their audience is Summit County visitors.00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:15.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:35.000Brian Bensch: Who primarily are either not skiers yet, not skiers and swimmers yet, or are brand new and want to get their sort of their ski legs on because someone invited them on a trip to Breck or trip to Copper.00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:52.000Brian Bensch: and they're like, well, I've never skied before. You know a lifting. It's expensive, less expensive. B like, can I get my legs like, you know, get my footing somewhere, and we are smack dab in the middle of, you know, 4 major resorts. In addition to Copper Breck, you've got a base and and.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000Brian Bensch: and Keystone around the corner, and we are the affordable alternative for Summit County visitors.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:03.000Stuart Winchester: It's expensive for a rope tail, by the way, it's like $40 for a lift ticket.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.000Brian Bensch: Um, and the town…00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.000Brian Bensch: Sure. Expenses is very relative. That is fair.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, okay, so, so…00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: you established… that's funny, that's not at all what I expected. I thought it would be, like, bust loads of kids, but I guess they probably have deals with Breckenridge or something. So you've had success.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:35.000Stuart Winchester: at Frisco and at Grand Labaca, and you've had a couple others that you've been in and out of other than Homewood. Tell us about those, and what did work, and ultimately what didn't work about them.00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:46.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. Let's go with — let's stick with the Colorado trend first, and then we'll come back to Tahoe. There's an awesome little mountain.00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:01.000Brian Bensch: that, I think you know, and and didn't. As you think about your the last ski resorts to open or ski areas to open. I actually think Hoedown Hill is the most recently opened new ski area in the country. It's about an hour north of Denver.00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:06.000Brian Bensch: in Windsor, Colorado, and we worked with them for their 1st 2 seasons.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:15.000Brian Bensch: Um, and we did not work with them last year. Um, still in touch with them, um, but they are a brand new ski area that is, I would say, a…00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.000Brian Bensch: a privately…00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:26.000Brian Bensch: run like you. You could say there's similarities to the Grand Lebakken business model, but on a whole other level of, I would say.00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:40.000Brian Bensch: affluence and like target demo. The Hoedown Hill facility is attached to the Raindance National Golf Course, which I'm not a golfer, but I hear it's a tier one destination golf course.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:49.000Brian Bensch: They want to build, you know, 4 seasons esque hotel there, and it is a we'll say a bourgeois experience that they're going for with some, you know.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:06.000Brian Bensch: you know, a good culture vibe there. And I think so long as the management team remains committed, it will continue to grow. They are at the IndyPass, so shout out there, like, it's worth a quick visit if you're flying into Denver with your IndyPass.00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.000Brian Bensch: Um, and in our first two seasons there, um.00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.000Brian Bensch: We did, we did.00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:19.000Brian Bensch: we did okay. But we weren't able to draw the numbers that we saw in Summit County, or anywhere close to them.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.000Brian Bensch: And my conclusion.00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:26.000Brian Bensch: or one of my conclusions is that.00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:39.000Brian Bensch: It is much, much harder to influence the macro kind of tide of skier movements than it is to siphon off.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:55.000Brian Bensch: not to capture demand in an underserved market in Northern Colorado. You know, it's great that they have Hodown Hill, but there weren't a thousand people looking for affordable lessons in Northern Colorado before Hodown Hill existed.00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:11.000Brian Bensch: Uh, whereas there's, you know, thousands of Summit County visitors who want more affordable lessons and just don't take lessons today. Um, and so, like, it was… and same thing in Tahoe. Uh, it was much easier, like, we open up for business and, like, we don't have to do much marketing for.00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:25.000Brian Bensch: for the wave of customers to come in, whereas every customer we earned in, uh, in Windsor and Fort Collins area, sort of, we had to hustle to get. There weren't people, like, already looking for affordable skiing there, because it's… it's a suburb of Denver.00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's true.00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:28.000Stuart Winchester: That's so interesting because I.00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:39.000Stuart Winchester: wrote up, and I talked to the folks at Hood on Hill, and they were opening it. And the way I thought… the way they pitched it to me was more of making skiing accessible for locals at an entry level.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:49.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, they didn't… I mean, I understood that it was attached to this other resort, but my understanding is it was kind of a low-cost thing for the community. I think one mistake they made, and…00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: Maybe you don't want to criticize them, but I think having four carpets.00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:02.000Stuart Winchester: I think they should have had at least one rope tower or T-bar, like, something to serve the terrain park that wasn't so slow. I think that would have gotten them more…00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: Energy on site.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:18.000Stuart Winchester: And… and had a multiplier effect. I just didn't… I didn't like the four carpets model. I liked the model of putting a ski area there, because otherwise the closest place is, what, like Eldora, and a lift ticket's 180 bucks?00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so… so there wasn't… or you go up to Echo, I guess, but that's a pain to get to. So… so I… I don't know, that… that was my… that's my impression of Hoedown so far, is it was, like, a good idea with bad execution.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:35.000Brian Bensch: I I think that there's some fairness to that.00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:48.000Brian Bensch: They did a great job with the terrain park, given the resources available. And yes, like, a rope tower right next to the park is always, like, I think, a good idea. And it's something that the town of Frisco invested in, I think.00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:05.000Brian Bensch: 3 years ago, maybe 2 years ago, and it has been wildly popular. And you know, rope toes, you know you don't need to convince me. But I'm I'm with you on the rope toes are the most affordable, accessible way for a ski area to like increase uphill uphill capacity.00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:17.000Brian Bensch: Um, I think the biggest challenge for Hoedown was… and you'd call this bad luck, um, I would say bad luck more than bad execution, but it is at, you know, 6,000 feet, and uh…00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:24.000Brian Bensch: Natural snowfall in an hour north of Denver is not the most plentiful.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.000Brian Bensch: And they invested heavily in snowmaking, but you can't fight temps.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:40.000Brian Bensch: And so, in both of our first two seasons at Hoedown, we opened between January 2nd and January 7th, but we missed Christmas both of those years, and it's really hard to, sort of.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:57.000Brian Bensch: generate momentum for a ski area when you miss Christmas. Um, and, you know, Mother Nature is the biggest determiner of that. Uh, I'm not positive, but I don't think they got open for Christmas last year, and last year was obviously the worst of the three past seasons. So, um, hoping Mother Nature cooperates better for them this year.00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Brian, so you can keep hunting rope toes.00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:16.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I was having this debate with someone yesterday. A lot of the stats you hear when you point back in time, oh, there was 1,200 ski areas and now there's only 500. It's like, well, a lot of them were little rope toes. Like, most of the lost ski areas in Colorado were just little rope toes that existed. The reason they went away…00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, is, is not because there, there was some catastrophe in, uh.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: anywhere other than the fact that there just was better ski areas built, and they're kind of boring. Like, when you just… you get over that pretty quick. Like, 100 vertical foot, wide open run, with a rope tow, unless it has some park features.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: you're gonna get over it. And almost all of them, they still exist. And I've been to a lot of them across America, and they're mostly in New England and Midwest, and kind of sprinkled throughout the West, especially in the Pacific Northwest. They're almost all…00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:56.000Stuart Winchester: None of them are actual businesses, almost. Like, they're almost all subsidized, they're a city park, they're owned by a school, they're attached to a resort.00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:01.000Stuart Winchester: My point is, this is not a growth area long term.00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: you know, the big ski areas mostly do have really good beginner centers, and they're getting better all the time, right? You see places like Jackson and Big Sky building mid-mountain beginner centers to put people more up in the alpine experience and away from.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000Stuart Winchester: the chaos of the base. So what I'm getting at here is.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: Eventually…00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like you have to get…00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:41.000Stuart Winchester: into a ski area where there's somewhere else to go after the beginner hill's done, right? Or else you're just gonna be teaching pizza French fry forever, and… and I don't think that even the most passionate ski instructor wants to do that, so…00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.000Stuart Winchester: And it's funny, because you started at Homewood, and it's like, how do you get back to Homewood is almost the question I'm asking.00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: But I…00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: How do you… First of all, do you agree with that or am I totally missing the point? And second, if you do want to eventually get into bigger operations, what…00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.000Stuart Winchester: What are the obstacles to doing so other than the obvious permitting issue we just talked about?00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:20.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, so I would say I 80% agree with you. The 20% carve out would be that Grand Lavaca is still a business and Ron runs it like a business.00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:27.000Brian Bensch: And the town of Frisco, even if it's town-operated, is a business that, like, reports its P&L, and they're both, like, pretty thriving.00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:33.000Brian Bensch: medium sized businesses. Snow schoolers is a small business. They're they're certainly, you know, 5 to 10 x bigger.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:42.000Brian Bensch: And and I think that just like, you know, grade school education is a business.00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:46.000Brian Bensch: There is a steady stream of families.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:46.000 --> 00:51:01.000Brian Bensch: You know, kids that, you know, will hopefully have the opportunity to learn to ski. And, you know, I think there's a world for, you know, bump hills, so to speak, to remain thriving in existence without having, you know.00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:13.000Brian Bensch: the Jackson Hole Palisades terrain to keep people forever. As far as you know, snow schoolers and kind of the the lesson ecosystem.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:22.000Brian Bensch: I would say vehemently believe there is an underserved market for intermediate and advanced lessons.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:37.000Brian Bensch: at, you know, quote-unquote, real resorts. Um, I'd somewhat be lying if I said I had the answer, uh, to how to break into that, because I probably would have done so already, uh, even if this is my part-time endeavor. Um, but the… in a similar manner to.00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:44.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, how to… you know, we've… we struggled to create demand at Hoedown Hill. Hoedown Hill? Um…00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:59.000Brian Bensch: It is a completely new endeavor to create demand for that, you know, lifelong skier who skis, you know, 5 to 15 days a year, or maybe even like 10 to 50 days a year, and doesn't think that they need a lesson.00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.000Brian Bensch: Um, that is a much sort of.00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:14.000Brian Bensch: harder marketing challenge. But I can guarantee you, unless they are in the top 1% of like wealth. They're not going to pay $1,000. And so that's the like. How do you? How do you like? Come up with the right product?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:26.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, when I talk to people on chairlifts, you know, fun skiing, I'll often ask, like, you know, hey, when's the last time you took a lesson now? Yeah, when I was a kid. What would you be willing to pay?00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:42.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, to get 20% better at your skiing riding today. It's like, yeah, maybe 50 bucks, maybe 40 bucks, 60 bucks, like, you know. Uh, and there's no mountain that offers that, particularly for, like, the one or two hour segment. Um, and, you know.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:49.000Brian Bensch: I think there's a lot of experimentation that the bigger mountains could do with ski school to serve that sort of.00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.000Brian Bensch: Latent market, or latent demand, uh…00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.000Brian Bensch: I'd love to help, but I'd be lying if I think that.00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.000Brian Bensch: Ask a 3rd party to do it for them.00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:13.000Brian Bensch: And but you know, in the the only thing I think that I am a believer of Einstein's definition of insanity, and and if you do the same thing over over and over again, and expect different results like that's insane.00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:28.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I'd love to see more experimentation with, like, you know, better serving sort of lessons for people that already know how to ski. Um, because that's what… that's what got me addicted. Uh, becoming an instructor made me realize how much more.00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I'm.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:37.000Brian Bensch: fun I could have and how much more like I still I want to learn to be a better skier this year uh and like everyone that sort of.00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:47.000Brian Bensch: really gets sort of addicted to ski instruction. They do it because, like there, it's a lifelong pursuit of learning to like, get better. And most.00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:50.000Brian Bensch: lace gears like don't have that sort of.00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.000Brian Bensch: have that spark that I'd love to spread.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess the cynic in me thinks you're never gonna get the robots to ski. Like, there's too much ego in American skiing, especially among the sort of core demographic of males. But what I… I think what I meant more was, like, okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Grand Le Bacon's kind of a novelty, and I get that it's a business, uh, that's attached to it. I, how about like Tahoe Donner, right? So it's, it's, it's not a big resort. It's, you know, right next to Sugar Bowl. It's got 500 vertical feet, like five double.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:31.000Stuart Winchester: Maybe they don't need the hassle of running a ski school, and the…00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: they have locals, right? Because that's a mountain with interesting terrain, even though it's short vert, where parents would want to go and, like, put their kids in ski school while they go off and ski, even if you don't.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:57.000Stuart Winchester: get the parents. Is there… do you see opportunity in that? Because there's… there's lots of hills like that, which are not, you know, down the Frisco level, but, you know, if you want to go Summit County, so you have Frisco, and you have, like, Keystone Basin.00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:07.000Stuart Winchester: uh, Breck, but then you also have Granby Ranch, and you have Ski Cooper, and it's like, okay, may… or you have Echo Mountain, maybe those places are sort of the logical next.00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:18.000Stuart Winchester: I don't even know if it's possible to get the really big ones, but, you know, do you see any growth in that? Just tiering up, not to destinations necessarily, but sort of like.00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas that families actually want to ski a whole season at.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, um…00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:28.000Brian Bensch: A few things to come back to your earlier question. Not all of ski school is broken.00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.000Brian Bensch: I visited Granby Ranch.00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:37.000Brian Bensch: last spring, I believe? Maybe it was 2 springs ago. Um, and I've been to Tahoe Donner many a times. Both of those, uh…00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:42.000Brian Bensch: mountains have pretty phenomenal ski schools. Like, they don't need our help.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:50.000Brian Bensch: You know, maybe, you know, maybe there's some cool software things that we're doing that they could, you know, borrow and replicate, but they are thriving.00:55:50.000 --> 00:56:00.000Brian Bensch: learning area programs. And I think there's a like for for the listeners that have, you know, you know.00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.000Brian Bensch: young kids that are thinking about when to start in ski school.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:22.000Brian Bensch: That, I would say, tier of mountain is today, like, if it's not on your radar, it should be, because the affordability, like, they're not gouging people nearly as much as the Tier 1 Icon Epic Resorts are, and every time I've visited them, on a weekend at least.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:30.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, their fault. They're thriving. And so I don't think that at least the class of the Tahoe Donners and Granbys of the world. I don't think they're broken.00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:38.000Brian Bensch: Other than, you know, yeah, more staff, like, how do you keep scaling? But they are thriving pretty well from what I've seen.00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I'm.00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: I could still see some operator… you know, I was talking to the guy who revitalized Steeplechase, and he was saying, you know, we don't have a ski school, and I think I may have even connected you guys, but it's like, you sort of have a ski school in a box you could offer them.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:57.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, one more ski school question, and then you can make fun of my charts. Um, so… so, Summit at Snoqualmie.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:11.000Stuart Winchester: and I'm sure you know this, for some reason, because of, like, it's grandfathered in, because it used to be, like, 92 different ski areas, and now it's… it's one. They have competing ski schools there. It's one of the few… might be the only place in America.00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:16.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, that I'm aware of, at least the only major, you know, it's owned by Boeing. And I've asked Boe.00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:25.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know, we don't really want to have that war. You know, it works. But but what do you think of Summit at Snoqualmie?00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.000Stuart Winchester: And is it just?00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:40.000Stuart Winchester: a fringe case, and it doesn't tell us anything useful about how we could maybe change American ski school structure. Any thoughts on that? That's right outside of Seattle, by the way, for folks who don't know.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, yeah, uh…00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.000Brian Bensch: Now, fun, fun fact.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.000Brian Bensch: You know, in my 1st year of.00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:52.000Brian Bensch: researching this space and figuring out what I was gonna do. Uh, the Pacific Northwest, and Snoqualmie in particular, was sort of.00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:08.000Brian Bensch: Number one, I'm like, I need to get up there and figure out, like, what they're doing, why, how they made it work, and how do we do that in Tahoe? That was my, like, year one thesis. I finally got up there just before the world shut down with COVID.00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.000Brian Bensch: Knocked on doors, had some good conversations.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:23.000Brian Bensch: And and you're correct like there are at least 6 or 7, maybe even more independent ski schools. They all have their own little lodge building. They're all primarily seasonal programs.00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:33.000Brian Bensch: And they do. They still do a good deal of the sort of transportation coordination. You know that whole market is, you know, Seattle and Seattle suburbs, you know, coming up.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right off the interstate. Yeah.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:45.000Brian Bensch: to the mountains right off the interstate. It's it's as sort of like convenient as you could imagine. And more or less the answer I got was, we've done it this way.00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:48.000Brian Bensch: Uh, but we're not looking to make it more this way.00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.000Brian Bensch: And you know they.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000Stuart Winchester: That was the answer from Boyne or from the ski schools?00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:08.000Brian Bensch: Uh, it was… I would say both. There was a, uh, like, the first party unoperated, like, Snoqualmie Ski School manager, like, told me that. And there was a person who coordinated, basically, was the Boyne representative for the seven other independents.00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:11.000Brian Bensch: And it was like, yeah, we're not, you know, we're not inviting new people.00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and in case anyone from the ski schools at Summit is listening to this, don't run to Guy Lawrence or Steven Kirchner and be like.00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:13.000Brian Bensch: Um, okay.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:33.000Stuart Winchester: Stu Winchester said that you said this. I'm paraphrasing, and that's my take, is that they don't want that war. What they said was probably something like, our ski schools do a great job, and we're so happy to work with them. So don't run that back to them. This is just my take on it.00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:23.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:31.000Brian Bensch: Yep.00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, that they don't want to fight you, and I think they're smart not to.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:43.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. The thing I would probably acknowledge is when a…00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:47.000Brian Bensch: Sierra is running a…00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:54.000Brian Bensch: a well executed, operationally efficient ski school.00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:00.000Brian Bensch: They don't necessarily need third parties to come in and, like, try to do it better.01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.000Brian Bensch: Okay.01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:06.000Brian Bensch: However, there is a short term sort of.01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.000Brian Bensch: financially motivated incentive.01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.000Brian Bensch: to run a, I would say, less at scale, more profitable ski area over time.01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.000Brian Bensch: And you know that is sort of.01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:22.000Brian Bensch: what I would attribute to, like, you know, the…01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:37.000Brian Bensch: the non-snow summit at Snoqualmie Mountains that have one ski school and their list prices are $279 for group lesson or $1,299 for private lesson.01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:50.000Brian Bensch: they've decided that it's better for their business to, you know, maximize, like, short-term financials over long-term bringing skiers in the market. Um, and the history of Snoqualmie was, you know.01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:05.000Brian Bensch: Because it was like this, and because the ski schools were busing kids, you know, from school to the mountain afternoon, and, like, handling the very messy logistics and operations, that, like, they saw that as valuable and let them keep doing that.01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:12.000Brian Bensch: But from a business perspective, it's just more profitable, at least in the short term, to teach fewer lessons at higher margin.01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:17.000Stuart Winchester: So to end on this thought on ski lessons.01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:27.000Stuart Winchester: I think they're…

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is flabbergasted by EuroSki. Donate to my brain transplant fund to make me more smarter:WhoIain Martin, founder and host of UK-based The Ski Podcast. YouTube here. This is Iain's second appearance on The Storm:Interview dateSeptember 24, 2026Why I interviewed himIf, like me, you're a U.S. American SnoSportSkier, you may find European skiing more than a little baffling. More than 4,000 ski areas spread over dozens of countries with their dozens of languages. Trams and gondolas pop skyward from every other corner in Switzerland or the Pyrenees or Slovenia, as numerous as the strip-mall vape shops and Jesus-Knows-You're-Watching-Porn billboards defecating all over America's roads. The trail markings in Europe are all different colors. Why is no one skiing off the groomers? Who stole all the trees? Why is every ski lift either a tram that looks CGI'd to transport Storm Troopers to a fictional Star Wars Cloud City or a T-bar that looks as though it was hammered together by Yohan in between sheep shearings? Why is the food good and the alcohol cheap? Why do lift tickets not cost more than a semester's tuition at Cornell? And, most baffling of all as we contemplate the growing presence of EuroSki on U.S.-based multimountain passes, why is every ski resort actually 10 or 15 or 100 different ski areas stapled together as the Valley of Grand Domaine de Les Skis?I wish I could be more helpful in answering these questions. So far, I have not been very helpful. I felt like I could get away with just pointing and laughing as Vail and Alterra added a handful of big-time European ski resorts to their rosters, but the numbers have rapidly spiraled: check out the number of Euro ski areas that have joined Epic, Ikon, and Indy since 2018:At first I tried to keep up, but I just sort of surrendered after 2025. I did manage write-ups of Epic Pass additions in Austria, and new Ikon partners in Italy and France, but I never got past more than cursory acknowledgements of Indy's massive haul of Euro partners from Turkey up through the Alps core to Scotland. And I thought, “OK how many gigantic resorts can they have over there it's gotta stop soon right?” But they just kept coming like kaijū in Pacific Rim. The pass-by-pass totals headed into winter 2026-27 are shocking:Here's a country-by-country breakdown that's a bit easier to read:And here's the detailed roster - not all the lifts are filled in because shoot me:This chart is the European equivalent of American college football rankings. It makes no sense, but it must be fun because so many people do it, right?I tried to make a map but it sorta sucks so I'm going to keep trying. I did use the map as a visual aide in the podcast, which is also and always available in audio-only. But if you want to watch above or on YouTube, our conversation will make marginally more sense as I scroll around beneath Iain's narrative.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment. Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder and host of The Ski Podcast, a UK-based show that just published its 327th episode.00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:56.000Stuart Winchester: He's also a freelance journalist writing for national and specialized press and the owner of a digital marketing consultancy for snow sports. Ian Martin is my guest. He is a good friend of the storm. He has been on the show before and he is here today to help us make sense of Europe. Ian, how you doing today?00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I am really well, Stuart. It's really nice to see you, and thank you for inviting me onto the show.00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:07.000Stuart Winchester: Before we get started, what do you got lined up for this winter? When do you start skiing?00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:23.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: My personal first trip will be out to Les Des Alpes ski resort in France, which I'll be doing in early December. But I will actually be skiing not next weekend, but the one after in one of our indoor snow slopes.00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: in the UK. I'll be skiing in the snowy center, Manchester, so I'll get to get my skis on.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that'll be a lot of fun. Yeah, we have the one right over in New Jersey. I was supposed to go a couple of… a couple weeks ago, but I… something came up, and I wasn't able to make it. Alright, so Ian, let me set this up for the listeners.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.000Stuart Winchester: And, and…00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: as a baseline for what we're dealing with here. So, US-based passes, meaning Epic, Icon, and Indy. There's also one on Mountain Collective, but it overlaps with… there's two on Mountain Collective that overlap with Icon, so I'.00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: So they have added a total of 61 destinations.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mm-hmm.00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.000Stuart Winchester: in 14 European countries.00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: 13 of those are on Epic.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.000Stuart Winchester: Nine are on icon.00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:18.000Stuart Winchester: 39 are on Indy. Uh, so… some of those are unlimited on Epic, some you get 5 days, some you get 7. Icon's a pretty standard 7 days, or 5 days, even with the base pass. Indy is 2 days at each.00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, 20 of those destinations are in Austria.00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:31.000Stuart Winchester: 12 are in Switzerland. Uh, 8 are in France, and they're all over the place, but those are the countries with the most. So let me… I wanna actually…00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Share on my screen.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:38.000Stuart Winchester: a map that I made that could help us as a little guide, although it's not a…00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.000Stuart Winchester: It's not a great map, but I will…00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay. Can you, can you see the map?00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I… can see the map, yes.00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, I couldn't figure out how to make the…00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me just explain this at a high level. So, I couldn't figure out how to make the text smaller, it's very much a work in progress, but, uh, blue is, uh, the names of the ski areas are by country.00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:19.000Stuart Winchester: And the names of the icons are bypassed. So when you zoom down to Austria, it's Epic, Epic, Indy. Uh, Indy's red, Icon's yellow, uh, Epic is blue. This is one where it really helps to watch the video. If not, we'll explain it, and you don't have to.00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:34.000Stuart Winchester: be watching to understand everything. So, uh, looking at this, Ian, and putting aside my, uh, crappy map design skills, and looking at the full of Europe, from above, from space, as we can do in the future here, uh, where do you even start?00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Well, firstly, I've got to congratulate you on your data. It's just amazing. When you read out all of the different resorts, and the number of countries, and the number of resorts in each country, I've got one of your spreadsheets printed out here, and it's already changed since then. So, staying up to date the whole time is really quite incredible.00:10:53.000 --> 00:11:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: how you manage… how you manage to do that. Um, it is, uh, amazing. In… in respect of the map, there's obviously a lot of ski areas on there, and probably this is going to be better for someone as a research tool.00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:15.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, you mentioned that there are 61 countries in total, 61 ski areas in total that are covered on those different passes.00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I was thinking about…00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: what is the best way to kind of go into getting a sense for maybe which ones you should visit? Obviously, it's going to be different for everybody, depending on what kind of pass they have, and I know some people have more than one pass, but I thought that maybe a useful way to do it might be to think of.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Let's say the hero trip.00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Then maybe somewhere you might go.00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: for a week, and then somewhere that you might visit if you were… if you were touring, or possibly if you're over for work, and you happen to be roughly in that area to give people a sense of, you know, where it might be worth doing a little side trip to while they were doing that.00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So if you are happy with that structure, I could work from that. Okay, cool.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000Stuart Winchester: I love it.00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.000Stuart Winchester: Full speed ahead. Let's do it.00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, cool. So, I think…00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: We've seen more Americans coming over to Europe over the last few years, and that is to do with these. That is to do with the passes. No, it's a pleasure. I mean, I talk to everybody when I'm on a chairlift or in a gondola, and if I hear someone who's from the States or maybe from Canada, I'm always interested to know, you know, why they've come over, and predominantly it's because.00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000Stuart Winchester: Sorry.00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: they've got the passes. And, you know, I spent a lot of time in Chamonix last winter, and evidently you get a lot of people in Chamonix. Chamonix is one of the ones on the Icon Pass, I believe, as is Zermatt. Now, Chamonix and Zermatt are two amazing destinations. They really are fantastic. You can see them, actually, on the map that you've got in the video now.00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They're quite close to each other. They're probably about two and a half hours by car apart. You could fly into Geneva for both of them.00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, okay.00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:54.000 --> 00:13:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They are fantastic resorts, fantastic destinations. They're my two favorites in Europe.00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:01.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But they're not necessarily going to be suitable for everyone. And the reason I say that is Chamonix is incredible. It's in the middle of a very dramatic valley. You have Mont Blanc, the highest mountain in Europe, at 4,800 meters on one side. You can take the Aguille de Midi.00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which is the lift that goes up to 3,800 roughly meters. And ski the Valley Blanche from there. Lots of people will have, you know, heard of that very famous off-piste run. It's incredible just to go up to the Aguirre de Midi.00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But in terms of the ski areas itself, they're very disparate. They're not connected, uh, in the same way as we might come onto the Three Valleys, uh, you know, shortly. So…00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:13:49.000 --> 00:14:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you've got to put in a bit of legwork if you're going to go to Chamonix. The connections between them generally involve getting a bus, and even if you're staying right in the center of town, you've got to get a bus.00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: or maybe a train from one end of the valley to ski the five different areas that you have in Chamonix-Mont-Blanc. And I think…00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I'm not 100%, I'm not the expert on the icon passes, but…00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Icon Pass only covers the lifts that are in that area. There's also a couple of areas which are included on your map there, actually, Megeve and Les Contamines. You can get a lift ticket in Chamonix when I stay there that covers all of those.00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And you can ski over there as well.00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so Mijeve, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mijeve has been added to the Icon Pass, but it took me so long to sort out even what that meant when they said Mijeve, and even Icon Pass themselves didn't seem to know. We'll get to that mess in a little bit, but Mijeve is on the Icon Pass, uh, you know, along with Shamani, and those are separate buckets of days.00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh so.00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000Stuart Winchester: Then, like in Tammany, which is part of Mijav, is also on Indy.00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, exactly. Megeve isn't really part of Chamonix, but it is covered on that very big pass that you can buy. My point being really that Chamonix is fantastic. It's an amazing town. It has an incredible history.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's where the first Winter Olympic Games are in 1924. You can get really close to, uh, Mont Blanc. You could ski the Vallee Blanche. There are lots and lots of options for, uh, high mountain skiing, but for a more recreational skier.00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it's perhaps not as good. If we look at Zermatt, another one, yes, yep.00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so let me pause one moment on Chamonix first. So, I want to point out, the Icon Pass, for whatever reason, does not cover the Algo de Midi, or whatever, I'm sure I pronounced it wrong, the big tram. How important is it to just pony up, buy that tram ride anyway?00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes, okay.00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I mean, we had… we stayed out there for 2 months last winter, and we had lots of friends come to visit us, and with all of them.00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: we recommended that you go up there. It really is something quite special, being so high, so close to.00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mont Blanc itself, but also just for the type of visitors we had, who weren't really expert skiers, to get an insight into the high mountain, because you do see skiers who are heading off down the Valley Blanche, and the Valley Blanche is a relatively accessible off-piste run with a guide.00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: but other skiers who are doing much more hardcore stuff, or climbers who are up there, who are practicing their mountaineering skills. And if you go up the Aguirre de Midi, you get an insight to all of that. I mean, I met some of your American friends who were over, who were.00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really going for it, going down the Cosmic. When I met them, going up with some friends to the Aguirre-Midi, they were on their second ascent of the day. They'd already gone up, done the Valley Blanche, come back up, and then they were on their way down Cosmic to stay in a refuge for the night.00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.000Stuart Winchester: Of course, yeah.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I really would recommend it. And yes, it is expensive.00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could even be worth just buying that Montblanc Unlimited ticket in advance, because it's dynamic pricing. It's one of those things where if you buy it in advance, it's less expensive than buying it on the day.00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And Mont Blanc, just for my listeners, is, I believe, the tallest mountain in Europe.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, highest mountain in Western Europe. I think it's 4,810 meters.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so over to Zermatt.00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Zermatt, I worked a season there as well. Absolutely beautiful place. Zermatt Matterhorn, as it's known. The Matterhorn is the standout attraction. It is just an incredible looking mountain.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The village itself, in my opinion, very pretty. Lots of traditional chalets, traditional buildings.00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: they have controlled development of it. It's not full of skyscrapers. Without going into the details, there was a proposal to build, you know, one recently that really got it dampened down pretty quickly.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You can only get there by train. It's a car-free resort, which adds to the charm as well.00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: really, I would say, if… the only negatives are that it's quite expensive. It is one of the most expensive destinations in Europe.00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are a lot of, uh, visitors, a bit like Chamonix, who go there not necessarily to ski, but because they want to go and see the Matterhorn, in the same way that you could go up the Agua de Midi in Chamonix. There's a Gornergrat, uh, cog railway.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which will take you up, uh, to a fantastic view looking over, uh, the Matterhorn. So, I guess you're competing a little bit with the non-skiers. The ski area itself is better connected than Chamonix. It goes up high. You've also got lifts of skiing up to 3,800 meters.00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: at the Klein Matterhorn area.00:18:49.000 --> 00:19:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: typically they have summer skiing there as well. It's actually closed this summer for a little while because of the weather, but, you know, it's so high, and because of the glacier, they can offer skiing all year round. So, I really do love Zermatt.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The only negative would be…00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it's expensive, you know, you just gotta face up to that fact if you want to go there, but it has a cachet and a feel to it that I just, uh, love.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:34.000Stuart Winchester: And one thing this map doesn't show is it does interconnect with Turbinia, which is now on Icon Pass, but separate days. So once you cross, if you use the day of Zermatt, even if it's the same day, you cross into Turbinia, you're using another Icon Pass day. It doesn't really matter for most Americans who are visiting anyway.00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:39.000Stuart Winchester: But what do you think about Slovenia? Is it worth it to pop over there?00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, interesting you should mention that. So I picked Chamonix and Zermatt as the first two because they are the most well-known.00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:19:47.000 --> 00:20:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But it's not strictly necessary to go to those two places and base yourself there. And you mentioned that, uh, you know, Cervinia is on… did you… did you say Cervinia is on… sorry, which pass again?00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: So, it's on ICON, and the reason I didn't have it…00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:12.000Stuart Winchester: called out. It's under Valle de Oesta, Italy, so that includes, uh, Pila, it includes, uh…00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:10.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Slovenia, it includes Cormier, it includes some other ones, but I made the map fast.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Stuart, you are… you are very well, uh, informed. You're right. I mean, you can see it on the map that we're looking at below us. You can get from Chamonix to Courmayeur very easily through the Mont Blanc tunnel. It's actually a 22 kilometer tunnel, and we skied over in Courmayeur while we were there. Lots of.00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Chamonix, people who are based in Chamonix do go over there, because, uh, although the ski area is limited, there are more trees over there, you know, on a bad weather day, it's a really good place to ski, and it's included on the Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass. And Courmayeur is right at the top.00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: of the Aosta Valley. So where that little yellow, uh, icon is, underneath where it says Val de Aosta, is Courmayeur.00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But the Cormier… if I understand it correctly, then, all of the Aosta Valley resorts are included on the Icon Pass. So, as you say, Cormier… Cormier…00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Correct.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's quite a shishi kind of resort. You'll find lots of Milanese and Turinese will go up there for the weekend. There are lots of very smart shops in the little high street there. There's some very, very good restaurants up there.00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The ski area is not as big, probably, you know, 50km, two, three days for a, you know, a good advanced skier would be sufficient to ski a lot of it. But you can get access up to the Vallee Blanche from the Italian side as well.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that lift was upgraded a few years ago. And it's very, very impressive. It's much more modern than the Aguirre de Midi. And it has, you know, museums at the mid station and at the top station, which explore the history of mountaineering in the area.00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, I would actually say that if someone's, you know, looking to stay.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: For a week.00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and they have an Icon Pass, that the Ossa Valley could be a really good choice. If you had a car as well, because you can then explore Courmayeur, and then you mentioned Chavinha.00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, uh, slightly further down the valley, uh, and then up the hill, you mentioned that Shavinia links with Zermatt, and Shavinia is a really good resort. It's high, uh, it has.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Quite wide pistes, quite flattering type of skiing. It has Italian cuisine, as all of the Aosta Valley does. Much.00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: more affordable than Zermatt, but you could ski over to Zermatt for the day and ski the Zermatt area, uh, as well.00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, Chavinha, you know, is great. There's also a smaller resort called La Tuile, uh, in the Aosta Valley as well, which…00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it is worth a day or two. That actually links over to a French resort called La Rozier. I doubt.00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that would be included, and I don't see it on your list. Uh, and what I do see included a bit further down, we're moving around the map quite a lot, there is an area called Monterosa.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is on the Aosta Valley as well. Uh, and there's two areas there called Gressenet.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, and Alanya, and the skiing in both of those, I believe, is included, uh, within that. And, uh, you know, in Gressenet, uh, and Alanya, there's some quite advanced skiing there, up in Monterosa.00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, some really good, you know, off-piste, uh, challenging skiing, and in fact, you can do heli-skiing out of those areas. Heli-skiing is banned in France, but it's legal in Italy, so you can ski, and it'.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: legal in Switzerland as well, but you can ski out of Alanya, and heliski up to the mountain called Monterosa, and, uh, you know, access some amazing off-piste from there.00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:22.000Stuart Winchester: That's incredible. I, you know, for a while, Google Maps took that. I'm looking at the map here and I changed the settings so that the lifts show up. And for a while, Google Maps had taken them off and now they've added them back on. And so you can just really get to see the scale of what's going on in Europe. And I know what Americans are going to want to do.00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:29.000Stuart Winchester: when they look at Chamonix. They're going to want to take the Algomenidae up, and they're going to try to ski down into Italy. Is.00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, I mean, it is possible. Quite literally, if you did that to the Aguirre de Midi, you could ski, you'd have to ski tour up slightly, and then you could ski down. I wouldn't suggest doing that without a guide. You know, it is feasible to do it, and when last time I went up the, uh, the lift from the Courmayeur side, I saw tracks below.00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:24:50.000 --> 00:25:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: but it's not a straightforward route. Cormier's 1,200 meters, you know, you can get snow all the way to the bottom, but yeah, it's possible, but definitely, you know, take a guide, I would suggest.00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: Right. All right, so let's continue with the hero trip here. Where next, Ian?00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, again, if you're thinking about, you know, some of the great resorts in Europe, I'm actually going to pick St. Anton in Austria next, because that is listed on the spreadsheet I'm looking at as Skjalberg.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: On the epic, on the epic pass.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.000Stuart Winchester: Right. Yeah. Everything has 10 names there. That's another, that's another reason I, we needed you on here. Um.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Well…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Ski… Ski Aalberg is… so, let's just have a look at where you are. It's gonna be slightly to the, uh, west.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.000Stuart Winchester: There it is. There it is. I found it.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, there you go, Ski Aalberg. So, Ski Aalberg… Aalberg is, like, a region of Austria that sits within Tyrol, one of the, uh, the cantons, and in fact, that is quite good, the level that you've got it at right there. You can see, just on the video that I'm looking at, uh, at the moment.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, there we go.00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That you've got St. Anton is sitting almost underneath where it says Ski Aalberg. It's pretty easy to get to.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can get there… you can fly into either Innsbruck, or you can fly into Zurich. For, you know, I typically travel by train, but, you know, from both of those, it's about an hour and a half or so by train.00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, roughly, uh, transfer time. A really good train station in St. Anton. And St. Anton…00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: is an amazing destination. I was lucky enough to learn to ski there, you know, when I was a kid.00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I think what… it ticks a lot of boxes. It does have, uh, maybe contrary to some people's impressions, amazing food.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There's, like, a Michelin-star restaurant at the mid-station, just above a resort, which is, you know, well worth checking out. But lots of resorts, lots of restaurants in the town as well.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Has legendary apres ski.00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are two bars located opposite each other, which some listeners may have heard of, called the Crazy Kangaroo.00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And the moose avert.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And these are, like, legendary at the end of the day. Skiers will go there, they'll be dancing on the tables, they'll be, uh, you know, knocking back whatever they can, and then skiing down very, very carefully.00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, to the resort, the remaining, kind of, 500 meters or so. They do actually encourage people to get a bus back, uh, now, uh, if you can, because there is a little bit of a history of… of accidents, but those two, you know, have amazing apres ski.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:34.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good restaurants, but the ski area is fantastic. Ski Aalberg covers all of the resorts in that area. On the level of maps on at the moment, you can see over to the left, there's an area called St. Christoph. You can link over to St. Christoph.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can link over to Steuben, quite easy to ski over there, and then just to the north of the map, as we're looking at it at the moment, will be Lech.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:17.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is also part of Ski Aalberg. You know, you can stay in Lech. I tend to favor St. Anton, there's a lot more going on. Lech is a bit…00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: how can I put it? Posher, quite frankly. You know, frequented by the Dutch royal family and, uh, and others. You know, the British royal family historically used to go there as well. You can actually ski on Ski Arburg all the way up to that town called.00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Vaath, or Vaath, which is right at the top of the map. That is a very long day, and the connections to there are quite difficult. But it is a…00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, gosh.00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.000Stuart Winchester: You can ski from there to…00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, you could ski between there and St. Anton and back in a single day. You can get a certificate if you follow the whole route and do it. But it is a very large ski area. But St. Anton itself, really brilliant place to base yourself.00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: You're saying, wow.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: Jeez.00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, lift connections are really good, the resort is really good, and, you know, that would be one of the reasons I would suggest that.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And just another kind of equivalent destination for the hero trip. Oh, sorry. Go on. Go on. Yes.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:18.000Stuart Winchester: Let me just pause and ask you one question about Ahlberg. So, you know, again, Americans are…00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:34.000Stuart Winchester: And that's, I don't want to mean to speak for the whole nation, but they tend to fall into the checklist trap where they're just trying to get to everything. Would you recommend trying to ski from here to there, or would you recommend settling in, kind of enjoying a day at each, or maybe just.00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Hmm.00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Seeing where the day takes you, not worrying about all the lifts.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I mean, I would only do that for a long way to go. I mean, it's quite a long way to go to Lech and back for the day. And there is a lot of really good skiing in St. Anton. I actually tend to favor the St. Christoph Steuben.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: area, because it doesn't get skied as much as some of the other areas, and there's a lot to ski there, so you can have peace to yourself, whereas it might be much busier closer to St. Anton. There's actually another area you can see with the lifts that you've got there going slightly south.00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: from St. Anton, that goes to an area called Rendle, which is part of the Ski Arburg area. And, you know, Rendle is another really good ski area that's often underskied. I mean, you could spend a day skiing over there on its own.00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:30.000Stuart Winchester: Is… is that… is that part of Ski Aalberg? On the Epic Pass? It is? Okay. Okay.00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's part of Schiberg as well, yeah.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, great. All right. Anwar, you were gonna tell us about another, I think, Austrian destination.00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I was gonna go the other… the other very obvious, I would say.00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Um…00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Big destination is Verbier.00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which I believe is also on the Epic Pass.00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so Verbier's in Switzerland, quite close to Chamonix. You can drive between Chamonix and Verbier in an hour and a quarter. Again, you'd fly into Geneva.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000Stuart Winchester: Ah, yeah, let's…00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Oh, there it is.00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:56.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: really easy to get to from Geneva. You can actually get the train all the way from Geneva Airport direct to the town at the bottom of Verbier, which is called Le Chapelle, and then they have a gondola, which, uh… which you guys call a tram, I think, or, uh…00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.000Stuart Winchester: There.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it's a bubble lift, however you want to term it, that goes directly from the valley floor, connects directly out of the railway station and up into Verbier.00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, Verbier…00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Brilliant resort. Such an amazing ski area. It's actually listed on there as a Catra Valley, the Four Valleys, and that's because it also includes several other resorts as well, which are called, I think, Lazu… you can just about see them. Lazuma, Nonda.00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and Vaesuna, which are just slightly to the north there.00:31:48.000 --> 00:32:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so they're all included in that area. It's a big ski area, but Verbier has a lot going on. Uh, again, you know, good apres ski, really good, uh, restaurants, uh, but.00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Particularly for the more advanced skiers, there's some incredible off-piste there. You know, you can…00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um… go off… off the back from the top of Mon4.00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: with a guide, just again, and there's a huge area that can open up there. You can also do heli skiing out of Verbier to access some of the other peaks around there, but you can stay in the inbounds area and still ski a lot of really good off-piste.00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's high as well, you know, the resort itself is 1600 meters, and I think it goes up to.00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: 3… 2… I'm not 100% sure about that, but certainly high. So, you know, you have regular snow. I mean, I skied there in the last week of…00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: April last year.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:47.000 --> 00:33:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and there was still plenty of snow. Um, it's, you know, it's expensive. It's not quite as expensive as, uh, Zermatt. It doesn't have the view of the Matterhorn, but it is one of the world's best ski resorts, for sure.00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: So that's on Epic Pass, and it's, you know, Vail has purchased a couple of ski areas at Kranz, Montana, and Andermatt-Suderun, and it's also… the Epic Pass is unlimited on DeSantis, which is right.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:23.000Stuart Winchester: contiguous with the Entermeister Druun. If you have the Epic Pass, is it worth trying to do a trip with all of those, or is Verbier enough?00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And Verbier's definitely enough for a whole week. If you had a car, Cro-Montana isn't very far away, it would probably only take you…00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, an hour and a bit… I'm gonna say an hour and a quarter, perhaps, to, uh, get there. Cremontana's a big area in itself. It's, um… you know, I've skied there on many occasions, and I really like it. It's not… I've been there…00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: On a family holiday.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Whereas…00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I would go to Verbier because I like to ski kind of, uh, steep and off-piste, uh, you know, with a guide. And probably it's too expensive to take a family to. Cromontana is, uh, you know, a bit more, uh, affordable. I mean, it's still a very smart, uh, resort.00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But if you wanted to explore, you could go there. Amount is a bit more of a stretch in terms of distance.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, if you were on a tour, and you're an Epic Pass holder, you could take it in.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, I'm also a fan of Andermatt. I've been there several times, uh, as well. Again, probably go to Zurich for Andermatt. You can get the train from Zurich in about an hour and a half, something like that. And it's a really interesting story, uh, Andermatt. You know, it used to be…00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Its location is strategically significant in the middle of several valleys. So at once upon a time, it used to be an army base.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And then, when the army, uh, withdrew, it kind of went into decline for a long time. And it was bought by, uh, the area was brought by a property developer.00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And ultimately, he built it up, and more recently, Vale Resorts have taken that over. And so there's a lot of new accommodations, some incredibly nice restaurants. Again, more Michelin stars there. I've got a feeling…00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It might have the highest number of Michelin stars per capita for any.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: town in the world.00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the skiing itself, you know, again, I've been there with a guide, there's some excellent off-piste skiing, but there's, you know, a good amount of on-piste skiing as well.00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's a really, it's really appealing area.00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: So you mentioned having a guide many times, and I think that's, you know, in…00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Heh.00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, we generally only hire guides when we're going outside of the resort, and a lot of folks don't even do it then, if they're confident in their own avalanche.00:35:45.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: capabilities. In general, everything within resort boundaries in North America is considered to be patrolled and controlled, meaning they'll do avalanche work, and if it's open, you can go in it without a guide. There's a few exceptions where you need transceivers, etc.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:13.000Stuart Winchester: That's not really the case in Europe, so just from a mentality standpoint, how should skiers approach this when they're going to some of these hero resorts you're talking about, as far as.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000Stuart Winchester: Considering a guide in essential versus a luxury.00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, I wouldn't want to mislead you there. I mean, guides are just on my mind, because I like a lot of backcountry skiing, and therefore, I often, you know, go with them. In bounds, you don't need a guide, absolutely not. You know, you can download the app, or get yourself a peace map, and you can.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: go around the place as much as you want, and, uh, you know, it is fully secured, you've got ski patrol, uh, etc, so you don't need to be concerned about that. It just happens that a lot of the places that I've mentioned so far, you know, do have some of those more interesting off-piste options, and I guess it depends a bit on the listener and, you know, what they're, uh, looking for, but you… you don't…00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: need to have a guide to show you around resorts. I mean, potentially, some of these ski areas are.00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: significantly larger than they might come across in North America, and therefore.00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could be a good investment to rent someone or to hire someone to show you around. I mean, back in the day, in the 90s, when I was working in the Alps, I worked for British tour operators, and part of my job was showing guests around the mountains and helping them orientate themselves.00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that actually is pertinent, because the next resort I wanted, or area I wanted to mention, was Le Trois Vallees, Le Three Valleys.00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which…00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: Also on Epic Pass.00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: also is on Epic Pass. Now, the three valleys…00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: probably has a pretty good awareness amongst the North American market. I mean, it is the world's largest ski area.00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:53.000 --> 00:38:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There's 600 kilometers apiece there, and I work four seasons in the three valleys, three in Meribel and one in Courchevel.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Peace.00:37:58.000 --> 00:37:59.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it is.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: magnificent in terms of scale. There is so much skiing you can do there, and, you know, I worked four winters there. Did I ski every single run, you know, during that time? I doubt it.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, because you tend to go back and forth across a lot of them. Uh, you know, there is so much that it's gonna take you well more than a week if you wanted to, uh.00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: ski them all, but you could certainly explore the three valleys.00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, I… it's hard to know exactly which of those destinations to recommend, because it depends on the individuals to…00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: put it in context, you have three valleys, literally, over, if we were looking on the map, the left-hand side, you would have Courchevel.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle, Maribel.00:38:49.000 --> 00:39:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the right-hand side, Val Torrens. I think as we look at the map at the moment, it's the opposite way round. So we can see on the left, you've got Val Torrens at the top. That's the highest ski resort in Europe. It's 2,300 meters itself, the resort. Not high by, like, Colorado standards or something like that, but high by European standards.00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's above the tree line, uh, you know, it's changed a lot in recent years, but there's a lot of apartment accommodation there, there's a lot of nice four- and five-star hotels up there, uh, as well, but it doesn't have.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Like, if you were coming to Europe for the first time, it doesn't have the kind of character, the charisma.00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that some other resorts, let's say, like Verbier, or Zermatt, or St. Anton have, because it's modern, you know, it was built in the 1970s, so it's a purpose-built, uh, resort. Also, in that valley slightly lower down, you have Leymanduia, more.00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Prettier, you know, at the bottom, you've got a place called San Martin.00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle valley, Meribel.00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that is lots of pretty chocolate box chalets. Uh, you know, I worked 3 years there. It's brilliantly connected. Uh, the resort itself is between 1,400 and 1,800 meters, so it's pretty high.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, it's a good…00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: base, I'd still, if you were thinking about that, I'd still, you know, without wishing to offend any of my friends in Mirabal, and I have very many of them, I'd probably say if you think about a week and you wanted to base yourself somewhere.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Maybe Verbier or Saint Anton.00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: would be a better choice for that. They both have, you know, still big ski areas, and just a little bit more accessibility, uh, you know, overall.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel, again, a resort I love that I worked in for a season.00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There's several different…00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, what the French call station, different levels within Courchevel.00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel 1850, most people will have heard of. It's a top station. It's at 1850 meters. It is very shishy. Five and six star hotels, 13 Michelin stars.00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, across the resort, it… you can't find… well, I have stayed there in a couple of budget accommodations, but there's not really budget accommodation. You know, if you want to go and…00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: to a resort where you may well end up, you know, sharing a hotel with, I don't know, Leo DiCaprio, or, you know, you might find a member of the British Royals there, or David Beckham, then that's the kind of place to go.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But you're going to have to pay to go along with that. And it has fantastic skiing.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But again.00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: if you're only coming for a shorter period of time, I'd be inclined to mention a couple of the other resorts I mentioned, plus…00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I want to mention Valdezare as well, but I don't think Valdezare is on any of the collective passes, is it?00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Uh, is it part of one of these bigger…00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.000Stuart Winchester: Domains or.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: No, it is not. I mean, there is a, uh… so it's not going to come up on your map.00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But Valdisera is a brilliant…00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, resort, which does give you traditional skiing, a pretty village, a huge, uh, ski area that links up to Teen, where they have a glacier, so you can kind of guarantee that you're going to be able to get skiing. Skiing goes up to 3,500 meters there.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I met Americans there, so Americans certainly know about it. I met a family from, you know, Florida who were in the Folly Deuce, who were enjoying themselves in the VIP area and very kindly, you know, offered us some of their champagne.00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, at the time. You know, Founders Area is a brilliant resort, not covered on any of those passes. That doesn't mean that it's not necessarily going to be, you know, a good option, uh, for you. You know, lift tickets.00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:42:53.000 --> 00:43:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: are going to be, you know, dirt cheap compared to the States, but maybe still, like, 80 euros a day, or something like that, you know, overall, but a really good ski area. So those are all… I think we've covered all of the, kind of, the bigger.00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: kind of places there, unless you've got any other questions in relation to any of them. Oh, no, hold on! We've missed one! We've missed one! Dolomitiski!00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.000Stuart Winchester: No. Yeah.00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That's on Icon, isn't it?00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, Dolomiti Super Ski is on Icon, Skirama Dolomiti is on Epic. They each have, like, 100 ski areas, it seems like, so… yeah, this is how they're pitched to us. I don't know how you want to make sense to them on the ground… of them on the ground.00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, let's talk Dolomiti superskis. That's where the Winter Olympics were last year. Milan Cortina. Cortina is in the Dolomites. And it is a huge superski area, you know, depending how you do the definitions, it's larger.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: than L'Etoile Vallee.00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, but…00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Sometimes that means getting a bus in between. Uh, it is…00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It is great. You could fly into Innsbruck, you could fly into Venice, you can combine that with a trip to Venice, or maybe Verona, or Milan. They're all about equidistance from the Dolomiti Sufski.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's visually accurate.00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Absolutely stunning. The Dolomites are just an amazing mountain range. I found myself when I was skiing in Val Gardena, which we'll come to right in the middle of your map at the moment, just being distracted.00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I'm looking at the mountains, because they're just so gorgeous. I'm skiing down this piste. You know, looking at this mountain, thinking, oh my god, this is just amazing. And then on top of that, you know, you have.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Italian cuisine, Italian prices, you know, yeah, Cortina's the most expensive. Again, quite a lot of, uh, you know, Milanese would go up there for the weekend, but, you know, overall, Selva, again, roughly around the middle of your, uh, map at the moment. Yeah, really…00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good value, you know, considering it's a really good access point for a fantastic ski area.00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it has…00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Superski is not a misnomer. It is a very large ski area.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And there's some amazing circuits that you can do there. So I would probably recommend, if you were thinking about it, Cortina or Silva Val Gardena would be the two best places to locate yourself.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: And do you like Superski over Vail's Skirama Dolomiti group? And again, I've dug in a little bit, but I didn't include on this map what that…00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.000Stuart Winchester: contains, and I dropped the pin here on, uh, Campo Carlomagno, but…00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: It includes a lot of things in, you know, almost equal.00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I'm gonna have to put my hand up and say I don't know that area as well. I haven't actually skied there myself. It is, to my mind, and I can check your stats because I've got it in front of me, you're saying it's roughly the same skiable area.00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right. Was that the vertical drop?00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.000Stuart Winchester: That's the stats that…00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: or on the Epic Pass website.00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.000Stuart Winchester

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Stuff referenced in podcast:* The Salt Lake Tribune profiles Clint Richins of Logan, who wants the State of Utah to open a ski area where “he can take his family skiing without breaking the bank.” Clint, you have an open invitation if you want to come on the pod.* Vail Resorts acknowledges Oasis Management's nomination of four new board members.* Lift Blog reported Friday that Giants Ridge, Minnesota is seeking a new operator - and I have one in mind. The ski area also updated its master development plan.* Plus listener reaction to several of last week's posts: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Bear DenTranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them. Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. This is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the CEO of Bear Den Partners, which operates four New England ski areas. His family has operated 1,180 vertical-foot Berkshire East, Massachusetts since 1976, and acquired 1,000 vertical-foot Catamount on the New York-Massachusetts border in 2018.01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:53.000Stuart Winchester: In 2025, the family teamed up with a local group to acquire 2,057 vertical foot Burke Mountain out of receivership. And earlier this year, Bairdan purchased a majority stake in Smuggler's Notch, which with 2,610 vertical feet, 1,060 acres across three mountains, and 322 inches of average annual snowfall, is one of the largest, snowiest, and most fun ski areas in eastern North America. John Schaefer is my guest. John is a very good friend of the storm, and I welcome him back.01:14:53.000 --> 01:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: How is life leading up to ski season, John?01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: Oh, is what?01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.000Stuart Winchester: How is life?01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: How is life? It's good.01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what delayed you today?01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: I'm, uh…01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, a skunk. So I'm a little tired. I have some Diet Pepsi here to kickstart the day, but my dog got a skunk, uh, first thing, which is great.01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: Good.01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Let's go.01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: Massachusetts.01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:19.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it was better once I opened the door and it all came wafting into the house.01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, God, Berkshire's living. All right, well, I appreciate you fighting through that and joining us here, John. So, let's talk smugs, first of all, because.01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Bill Stritzler, I have a ton of respect for what he did at Smuggler's Notch, and how he's maintained the atmosphere, and it's consistently voted one of skier… by skiers as one of their favorite mountains, one of the best family mountains. It's also just a badass expert mountain.01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:46.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the…01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:48.000Stuart Winchester: the…01:15:48.000 --> 01:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: issue that comes up over and over again is, of course, the chairlifts. There are 7 haul lifts. They are a combined 392 years old. Uh, they are a combined 29,439 feet long. That's 5.58 miles. Uh, Madonna is the oldest.01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:21.000Stuart Winchester: 6,719-foot-long 1963 haul, it got a new top terminal in 2002, which I believe is the drive terminal. Sterling is the next longest, it's a 1964 haul, and the Village Lift is the next longest at 5,155 feet, that's 1967, so…01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:28.000Stuart Winchester: those are sort of the three main lifts, and then there's some other little lifts, Madonna 2 and a T-bar and such, but… but John…01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: I think everyone wants to know, what are you gonna do about the Lyft fleet at Smug's, because you have a contingent that loves the old Lyfts and doesn't want you to, but you have another contingent that's like…01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:44.000Stuart Winchester: That's why I don't go there. So what do you have in mind? What can you tell us?01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I mean, it's a problem that's highlighted by all the fun facts you just gave us here. And give you credit for that, going back to the announcement letter and post that you did.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's the balance between preservation and conservation, right? I mean, it's an environmental argument, it's a scary management argument, it's… do you preserve it, and do you keep it just exactly like it is?01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Or do you conserve an asset on into the future? And that's a fancy way of saying that, nice try, you're not going to quite get the answer today.01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, we have to have some reality here, right? Which is…01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those lifts are in excellent shape.01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: maintenance going on through the years and decades will become harder and harder and harder. And we're gonna have to address the problems.01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: before they become problems. So.01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Eyes wide open.01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are looking at everything at Smuggler's Notch, including the lift system.01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: Also, in perfect honesty, there isn't just.01:17:55.000 --> 01:18:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: a single plan that's gonna work there. You know, there's not.01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, there's not an endless pool of capital to go through and replace. How many? How many lineal feet of lift is that.01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: 29,439.01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, that's just under six miles of lift line.01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, that's a lot right? And it's a pretty big, angry mountain.01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:23.000Jonathan Schaefer: So when you look at that hillside and you contemplate driving.01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Concrete up to the top, or…01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, you're flying helicopters in, and it's a massive project.01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: So, we have to just do…01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: the right amount of work to keep that mountain, you know, going and thriving into the future. But also, you know, to your point, you know, people love it. You know, people love these mountains. They love them to death sometimes. We don't want that to happen.01:18:49.000 --> 01:19:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, but we respect everybody's point of view and we're just gonna have to work with our community to, to sort of telegraph those changes when they come up. And right now there's, uh, there's no major changes. You know, I don't have a.01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: an SE group plan that I can peel off the desk here and lay it out in front of you and show you exactly what's going on. I think that we've been around long enough that we got an idea, but we're not quite there yet.01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:27.000Stuart Winchester: I think the big question for Smugs that I've been trying to figure out for a while is, if you want the throwback experience in New England, you just drive an hour down the road to Mount River Glen, and they have a single chair that goes 2,000 vertical feet, and they have great terrain, and they've put a lot of money into creating.01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:38.000Stuart Winchester: the facade of being a 1940s ski area. But it's modern, they groom, they make snow below 20-whatever, 100 feet. So, the question, I think, for Smuggler's Notch is.01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Is there room for a second throwback ski area in New England, and do you want it to be that? Do you want, for example, to say, no, we'll never put in a high-speed lift, like smug should have slow lifts even if they're, even if they're new, uh, or, you know, the lift.01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: The trail footprint should stay. Do you have any thoughts on modernization?01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, it really gets to capacity, Stuart. And this is, this is, it's like this, it's almost like the saber metrics of skiing, right? Like where the numbers, what do they mean? I'm sitting here at Berkshire East and pardon the screwdriver, it's my pointer.01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I've got two lifts in front of me.01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: One's a high speed quad that moves around 600 people per hour, and one's a sky track quad.01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: with over twice as many chairs. It does. It's rated to move up to 2,400 people per hour.01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:29.000Stuart Winchester: Wait, your high-speed quad moves 600 people an hour?01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: 1600.01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: Sorry, I may have misspoke.01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we can bump it to 1800.01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: But you know, right out here I got a fixed script that moves more people than a high speed.01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Now…01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: up the road from me is another mountain, Berkshire Snowmason. It no longer exists. It was founded by a World War II vet. And he has a great quote from the early 1960s, where he says.01:20:55.000 --> 01:21:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: People care more about how they go up the mountain than how they look coming down it.01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: And at the time, he was complaining about a ski lift that went in at Jiminy Peak, where he had T-bars, and he felt that he had been left behind. So there's a lot of different emotions. There's, like, the raw numbers.01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Fixed scripts are great. They a lot of butts in the air. My dad.01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think it was talking to Everett Kircher, and that's what Everett used to tell him. He used to say.01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Their butts are in the air, you know, and not on the hill.01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so you either have people in a line, on a lift, or on a trail.01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: If you accelerate one of those numbers, they're gonna show up someplace else. It's just…01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: Physics. There's no way around it.01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so you gotta look at all that stuff when you do this work. And you know, while I don't have a solid answer, I do have a commitment to doing our best to.01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: to getting the right answers for the resort.01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: And for our customer base. And in terms of nostalgia, there's never going to be a point.01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: where there's not a nostalgic lift, you know, in the foreseeable future at Smuggler's Notch.01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: But the the question is that lift appropriate for the terrain? Is it the right one? Is the wrong one?01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: But inevitably, I mean, your stats tell all, you know, we're we're gonna be doing something at some point.01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think there's two good models that I look to of…01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:35.000Stuart Winchester: really atmospheric ski areas that have upgraded without losing that cachet. One is A-Basin, where the oldest lift, I think, is 2007 Zuma, and they have a combination. They have a high-speed quad, a high-speed six-pack, two long fixed-grip quads, and when they replaced the Pella Vicini.01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:52.000Stuart Winchester: double chair, I think in 2020, they just replaced… it was a 1970s lift, they replaced it with a brand new double chair that was made, I think, by Doppelmeyer. Same exact specs, it's just a new machine. The other example is Alta, which, if you go back to the 90s, had a bunch of double chairs just all over the mountain.01:22:52.000 --> 01:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: have consolidated most of those to one line and replaced them, almost all but Wildcat Double, with high-speed chairs. So, looking at those two models and thinking about it, and people still love those ski areas because they're the ski areas.01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Looking at those two models, do you start to get a sense of, like, is it really that it's a 1962 Hall double that people care about, or is it more that you create, as you said, a chair that matches the terrain? Do you get any inspiration from those other skiers as you think about this?01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I mean…01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: I would say, we've all been to a place, whether it's a restaurant or a ski area, I mean, I love to ski, so I've skied all over the world, and you go someplace, and you go back to it, and somebody did something to screw it up, and it pisses you off. I mean, that's really what.01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we've all seen it. We've all experienced it.01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Then we've also seen thoughtful design.01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: when we took over the Hermitage Club during COVID and started operating it, there was 27 point-of-sales.01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: on the first floor alone.01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:07.000Jonathan Schaefer: just to handle food and beverage. Right? And so you start to add it up. And it's like, Wow, you know, if maybe if they just designed the food and beverage system better.01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: you could have gotten through it with a a lot less point of sale, folks, and.01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: design is really critical, it's scariest. And… you really have to understand what you're doing when you make a 30, or 40, or 50, or, in Smug's case, 60-year investment in a ski lift.01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, because…01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: You don't wanna fly that concrete up that mountain more than you have to. You know, you don't wanna undo it down the road. So.01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: Again, there's a lot of factors that go into how to tweak a mountain and what makes sense and what doesn't.01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: And how not to ruin it. Um…01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: And, and that's, it's a big, it's a big task, you know, with a lot of responsibility that we definitely, you know, we, we're not just gonna go in there willy-nilly and start throwing stuff around and start moving things. ‘cause that, that is how you screw it up.01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:24:58.000 --> 01:24:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: Oh.01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:15.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think you have a priority, John, between Morse, generally considered the beginner mountain, Sterling, generally considered the intermediate mountain, and Madonna, generally considered the expert mountain, as far as where you think upgrades should be concentrated first, infrastructure-wise? And we can also talk about snowmaking here, which I know you've already announced.01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: It sort of matches the, the available equipment to the mountain, I would say. You know, there's, there's certain, there's certain things we, we gotta figure that out. That's, that's, that's what the next six months of my life will be focused on.01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:33.000Stuart Winchester: So talk about the snowmaking upgrades that you've already announced at Smugs, and what you hope to achieve there.01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: So this some going into the sale. We had a pretty good understanding of of some of the broad strokes work that needs to get done, and snowmaking is always a huge.01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: a huge factor for us.01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: And how we approach resorts, you know, it's literally, you go up the mountain, and you come down the mountain. And ideally, you come down on as many different trails as possible, and with as good of conditions as possible, and that's the snow aspect.01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:07.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so, we always start there, you know that. Uh, smugglers, each mountain always has different, sort of.01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Assets, you know, it's like…01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: You buy a house, it's got a great kitchen, you don't like the bathroom, right? And then vice versa.01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:23.000Jonathan Schaefer: Smugs… so we laid out what we thought needed to happen at Smugs, then you sort of do the low-hanging…01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: medium hanging, high hanging fruit, you know, to achieve the goals. And where, and we wanted to spend money where you would, the skiers would see the first, every dollar yielded the greatest results.01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so we focused a lot this year on.01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: fixing broken things and and dilapidated equipment, putting in fixed infrastructure on the hill. So the snowmakers themselves don't have to lug things around the less lugging they do on.01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: big, difficult mountains in the northeast, the more snow they tend to make.01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then really incorporating, uh, the snowmaker's experience into the upgrades, so that they felt that they were part, you know, of defining what that list was gonna be. And so, it's Smuggler's Notch, right? So there's 3 mountains, so it's…01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's everything times 3. You know, there's broken thing. There's the fixed equipment that needs to be put on the hill. So we attacked each one of the the areas of the the resort, and tried to address bottlenecks or issues that could unlock a lot of.01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: potential out of the system. And it's sort of the first salvo. You know, you… scary operations, you know, the way you fix mountains, it's like waves on a beach. You get…01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: You get a capital plan in January, you start to execute, if you're lucky, by April.01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: The wave falls on the beach and then your next thing you know, it's November and you're back into operating and you gotta do it again. And there's this cycle.01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: This is what we could get done this… this year on a short, you know, transaction window, and then love plans for next year's, too, and…01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those will probably have more meaningful impact.01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Well, where are you at, John, on… you know, one thing I liked about when Eric Mogensen bought Black Mountain in New Hampshire is the… it's such a fun mountain, but the top was rarely open. They have a double chair that goes to the summit, but it has a mid-station, and for years and years, sometimes the summit wouldn't even open, and he made a commitment right away, hey.01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:26.000Stuart Winchester: run the lift to the top as much as possible, and he has, including all the way into May the last two years. How much have you thought about.01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:41.000Stuart Winchester: Getting Madonna open a little earlier in the season and, and consistently making sure that peak is open, uh, as late as possible because that's sort of, I mean, Sterling's a lot of fun, but, but Madonna is the alpha peak, right? That's the, the biggest lift, the biggest vert, the toughest terrain. That's what people think.01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: when they think of the challenging terrain as smug. So have you thought much about Madonna and its operating schedule?01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:53.000Jonathan Schaefer: The bottlenecks aren't really Madonna. It's everything that leads to Madonna.01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that's what we went to fix.01:28:55.000 --> 01:29:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: with the snowmaking system. So if you can chew through everything else, like, you gotta get beginner terrain open, you have to get…01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: something for your your pass holders as fast as possible, and if that fast thing becomes faster.01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: or those bottlenecks disappear, then we're we're hitting Madonna.01:29:15.000 --> 01:29:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: earlier. So it it has a cascading effect throughout the whole system.01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:36.000Stuart Winchester: So speaking of pass holders, let's talk about passes. So since I was just talking about Eric and Black Mountain, let's talk about Indy Pass. So you were an early adopter of Indy Pass, going back to 2019, put Berkshire East on it, catamount right away. As soon as you bought.01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Burke, or were involved in Burke, it switched over from an allied mountain to full, and you just added Smugs, which is huge for IndyPass holders. You now have Jay and Smugs. I mean, four days of those alone is worth the price of an IndyPass, let alone the other dozens of mountains you have there. So talk about.01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: Correct?01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:06.000Stuart Winchester: your relationship with IndyPass, and ultimately why you recommitted… because they're one-year contracts, right? So why you recommitted by adding all four of your mountains, including Smugs, which you haven't had a winter to run yet, onto Indy?01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: Indy's a really important piece for, you know, independent skiers in the country. And we, I used to have debates with different people pre Indy Pass.01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: And one of the debates was, and I won't name them, was around.01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: Could there ever be a pass that represented those types of mountains?01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Because, let's just be… let's face it, you have the Epic Pass, which has Vail and Whistler, and…01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: when Doug branded the IndyPass, he gave a voice to a whole, you know, quite frankly, the majority of the ski world.01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which was feeling a little left out at the time.01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so it's done a lot for small ski areas across the country.01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: But it's certainly done a lot for ours at Berkshire East and Catamount. So we're, what, 5 or 6 years in at having Indy at those resorts?01:30:58.000 --> 01:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: We've certainly been.01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: sort of like Indy Pied Pipers along the way. It, it wasn't necessarily a layup that we were gonna do it at Smuggler's Notch. You know, it seemed obvious maybe from the outside and we'd have to get there. But our commitment really is, is to the full pass holders and the ticket holders of a resort.01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: First, you know, they're, they're sort of our primary constituents and what India Smugs allows us to do is we, we are very experienced with using the capacity controls in any pass at our other mountains. So we, a reservation system at Berkshire East and Catamount.01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: that allows, you know, for only certain number of capacity per day. And we're pretty experienced on managing, you know, weekly, or monthly, or daily, even, on how we want to handle that.01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: So we felt comfortable with not overwhelming the mountain. And what happens is, I think one of my critiques of the ski business is it's like…01:31:56.000 --> 01:32:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, with the multi passes, you have this slosh of people, you know, you fill a bucket full of water. It's like you got a Home Depot bucket and you're walking down the street with a bucket and it inevitably spills out and gets you wet.01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: And to me, that slosh is what happens when you have.01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: unlimited access everywhere. Right? So if Berkshire East, for example.01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: was…01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: was in a huge pass product, and we happened to get 3 feet of snow, which happens occasionally.01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: and 50,000 people show up at Berkshire East, that slosh would break the town, it would break the mountain, it would break everything, right?01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:32:37.000 --> 01:32:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we don't wanna have that. We actually do care about the experience at these mountains. That being said, it's important to fill up the excess capacity so we can do the snowmaking upgrades and we can do the resort upgrades that at Smuggler's Notch or the any of the other mountains that you will see the snowmaking.01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: you will see the improvements. And so we have to optimize.01:32:57.000 --> 01:33:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, around the midweek and the non busiest times.01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then, once once that stuff starts to happen, the snowmaking improvements.01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: More people start to show up in off-peak times. You feel that energy?01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then you got something to work with. And so.01:33:15.000 --> 01:33:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think that's where we're headed with that relationship, and, you know…01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh…01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: it's also why we didn't do the Four Mountain Pass right out of the gate. You know, I think a lot of people wondered, well, will there just be a Bearden Pass? And Bearden, you know, our core mantra is distinctly local. Like, we love.01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: these mountains. We love the people that make them up and the history and the legacy of those resorts.01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we care about, you know, doing our best to be caretakers, you know, so that the mountain we buy is still recognizable by the people.01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: who utilize it, you know, 10 or 15 years from now when they come back to it.01:33:55.000 --> 01:33:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so not overwhelming.01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: not having overwhelming numbers is a it's a real. I mean, it's probably the thing I've thought about most this year.01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a couple different levels of competition here. You have the other big multi-mountain passes, you have your four mountains and your different pass products, and you're kind of competing with yourself a little by being part of India. Now we're seeing.01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:36.000Stuart Winchester: Other competing passes, the Snow Pass, run by Snow Operating, start to follow that model of two days at each mountain, and they got some really nice ones out of the gate, Whiteface and Gore. Do you think that Indy Pass will remain important long.01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:52.000Stuart Winchester: term to you as you… as you build up, you know, you have four mountains to work with, that's a pretty attractive little portfolio, especially the way they run north-south, with Catamount being two hours from New York City, and Smuggs being this great destination, and everything in between, and all easy to get to off the freeway. So… so what…01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: long… as you think about passes long-term, do you think you'll stay on a multi-mountain pass? Do you think.01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, uh…01:34:59.000 --> 01:35:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're we're into hypothetical worlds. We're we're into indie. We like indie. So.01:35:01.000 --> 01:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:35:03.000 --> 01:35:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: Why don't you tell me where you think the market's going and we'll.01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yes, sir.01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:27.000Stuart Winchester: I'm liking the competition. I'm liking that there's a lot of different options for consumers right now. I think the Indy Pass is, it's the largest pass coalition ever assembled in the history of the world that I'm aware of. And I just think for consumers, particularly in New England to have.01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Those mountains, Smuggs, Jay, Waterville. And Berkshire East is such a great mountain, too, and it's almost always a top 10 on Indy Redemptions, which surprised me. So, I love where you're going. I also love the Bash Badge. Can you talk about the Bash Badge at Smuggs? Because you actually have the Bash Badge Plus, which maybe they had before, I don't know if that's new. And if that concept could roll out across your other mountains, and I know you're not…01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Mr. Price Guy, so I can throw the prices up here. Um, the…01:35:58.000 --> 01:36:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, the bash pads fits between a day ticket and a full pass, you know, just sort of.01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Functionally and emotionally. And it's an important piece of the product, and we've… we have evaluated it across the board. There was a… it's… it was funny, you know, it's funny not funny. We hadn't communicated it yet, but um…01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:16.000 --> 01:36:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: A lot, there was so much concern out of the sort of the smug social media.01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: around their prob… quote-unquote, they are probably going to get rid of the bash badge. I'm they. They were never going to get rid of the bash badge. It's an important part of the puzzle, and uh…01:36:26.000 --> 01:36:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:36:29.000 --> 01:36:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:36:33.000 --> 01:36:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, it speaks to…01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know what you're saying about the industry.01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: Indy's an important funnel.01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: for visitation for us. You know, Bash Badge is an important funnel. People get so… you get so locked into your routine, right? Even your social media routine, or your…01:36:48.000 --> 01:36:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: web presence routine. So you're only exposed to what you're exposed to. And.01:36:57.000 --> 01:37:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: the reality is, it's tough business, you know. The winters are tough. There's a the ex. The equipment's extremely expensive, and we have 13 weeks to really get after it each year. Yeah, we need to be as in front of as many people as possible, so they can come up and.01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: rent from our homeowners and buy food in the kitchens and.01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: Ski awesome terrain. So that's…01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:37.000Stuart Winchester: Let me break down this product real quick because I think it's so good. So the Bash Badge, you pay $159 upfront and then you get $30 lift tickets or $20 half-day lift tickets for the entire season whenever you show up. The Bash Badge, Bash Badge.01:37:37.000 --> 01:37:44.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is $249, has the same deal, but it's sort of a pseudo-season pass, because you get…01:37:44.000 --> 01:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: direct-to-lift, you know, unlimited days from opening day, which is usually around Thanksgiving, through December 18th, and then from March 22nd through the end of the season, which at Smuggs is somewhere between the first and third weekend in April, usually. I don't know if you want to push that at all. But that is an awesome product. I mean, is this something that you want to roll out across the portfolio?01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're evaluating it. Yeah. All the mountains are different, right? So that's…01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: which may work, something that may work great, and I'm not, this is more generic.01:38:15.000 --> 01:38:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: at Burke may not work at Catamount. You just pulled up Catamount there, right? That's a different user base.01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Different demand profile. Right? So.01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: These mountains are going to run.01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: relatively independently, but also, we want our guests to know what to expect when they go to a Bear Dam Mountain, which is that independence, the quality, the focus on the fundamentals, you know, good snow, um…01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:38:40.000 --> 01:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: and efficient operations. I mean, it's… the weather's ever-changing, so you can't always promise it, but…01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, you'll certainly get our best effort in any given time.01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:55.000Stuart Winchester: How would you know, John, like, what would be your sign?01:38:55.000 --> 01:38:58.000Stuart Winchester: that you were messing up SMUGS, that you were going in the wrong direction.01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I'm sure I'd hear about it.01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:10.000Stuart Winchester: As a… as a skier, what do you not want smugs to be? Because you're a skier, I mean, you… you know, you've skied every day of your life that…01:39:10.000 --> 01:39:13.000Stuart Winchester: you know, has been… there's been snow on the ground, I believe.01:39:13.000 --> 01:39:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:39:14.000 --> 01:39:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: I, um…01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: For me, it's that overwhelming presence of just, you know, you're on a trail and.01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: You feel like you're gonna get.01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: just overrun, and you're just… you want to go home. I mean, I've had ski days where.01:39:30.000 --> 01:39:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, for example.01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: My wife and I did a trip to a.01:39:38.000 --> 01:39:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: a larger, you know.01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: Northern Mountain a couple years ago, and I was invited to an event, and I couldn't get the person who, you know, I get comp tickets, it's just one of the perks, who was there to comp the ticket, and…01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:39:52.000 --> 01:40:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: So it's like, oh, I'll go through the ticket line and really experience a day trip, you know, as the general consumer of one of these resorts, you know, which, you know, I'm generally at smaller mountains doing our thing.01:40:03.000 --> 01:40:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: And…01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think almost 500 bucks of ticket fees later.01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:11.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, we're in the middle of an overrun.01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: Trail.01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: My wife, who's an advanced intermediate, was just like, can we go home to Berkshire East?01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, so.01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: if I feel like I want to go home right now, as much feels like home to me. I had a lot of great skiing there this winter. I brought my daughters up, and.01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there's awesome terrain. We're looking at the map here.01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: it feels like a western mountain. I mean, it it's big enough that the whoever cut the trails, there's there's grade reversals to uphills to big rolls to.01:40:39.000 --> 01:40:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, snow-covered trees, and I know it's not always like that, but we just had the best.01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: Few weeks of skiing this year.01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: And you can really let it rip. Woods are awesome.01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Great family experience. That's what home feels like. And.01:41:04.000 --> 01:41:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I'm I associate with myself, you know, in in general, with people that appreciate that. And.01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:41:11.000 --> 01:41:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: That's we're here to curate this and to grow it, but not ruin it.01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that's very subjective, right? So we have to run good businesses, and we're never gonna make everybody happy. But I think in the effort we give.01:41:27.000 --> 01:41:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: People will appreciate it.01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:31.000Stuart Winchester: The more…01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: skiing changes in New England, the more…01:41:35.000 --> 01:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: people love what Smuggs is, and I'm looking at the trail map here for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, and what you see back here is Stowe. Now, I love Stowe. I think it's the best mountain.01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, me too.01:41:46.000 --> 01:42:04.000Stuart Winchester: in New England. I just love the fall lines, I love the skiing. Vail purchased it, of course, in 2017. Bill Strissel, the former owner, had proposed a gondola from Sterling across, which is much flatter than this, across to Stowe.01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:14.000Stuart Winchester: Is that idea dead? Is that still something you would consider? You can still walk between Stowe and Smugs, of course, but is a potential lift something you're considering?01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, you know, I think we're considering getting back to where we were, which is… I think it would be awesome to skin up Sterling, but they don't allow it, and um…01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: come over to smugs and go back and forth.01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: we're not in the market for paying for that lift, and I read the reviews online, just as well as everybody else, on what locals thought about it, so… that's not the…01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, I want to develop a great great relationship with those guys and the Gm. There.01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: Started at Mount Snow, and we have a ton of mutual friends. And he's very, very, very well respected, you know, within the Vail organization.01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so is awesome.01:42:54.000 --> 01:42:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: But, um…01:42:56.000 --> 01:43:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I think that I have trail run it all summer and fall, and it's a it's a great trail. I was there, and I think it was 1997. Somebody dumped a snow cat into the pond trying to drive across it. I saw the snow cat as a 17 year old or 18 year old.01:42:57.000 --> 01:43:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Mike's a good dude.01:43:01.000 --> 01:43:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, man.01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, um…01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah.01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000Stuart Winchester: Is it still there?01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: No, some other… I think they got out with a scooter.01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I mean, Mike's a great guy, and I skied with Mike in April, and folks don't understand this, and I beat it to death, but unless you're from the region, and I didn't understand it until I moved out here, Northern Vermont is so good. I mean, 322 inches of snow, that's the second snowiest.01:43:39.000 --> 01:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: In the east that Smuggs gets, of course, JP gets a little more, and maybe they get the same. I don't know, people measure things different, but last year I was supposed to take my family to Tahoe in April. I canceled it, went to Stowe and Killington instead, and we got a couple of powder days of Stowe in April. It is really, really good skiing up there, and there's tree skiing more often than not. So, I mean, you've got such a prize up there, and if people have not been up there.01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:08.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, go now so you can watch the evolution. Uh, John, I wanna…01:44:06.000 --> 01:44:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I'm gonna try to text you a picture here, Stuart. I've got me pounding the Lincoln Gap and I think 2003.01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: But I I grew up skiing up there.01:44:18.000 --> 01:44:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: And the scheme is awesome.01:44:22.000 --> 01:44:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: The, um…01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: There's there's nothing like it. And it's it's it's not. You know it. It is Northern Vermont, right? It's not.01:44:31.000 --> 01:44:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Banff.01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it's okay. There's great communities. There's great.01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: There's great people. There's a huge legacy of people that love these mountains and care for them. And utilize them.01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: So.01:44:50.000 --> 01:44:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're just lucky to be the next man up here, and we're fired up to do a good job about it.01:44:55.000 --> 01:45:19.000Stuart Winchester: I'm fired up that you bought it. There was a lot of chatter that Vail may buy it and combine it with Stowe. Again, love Stowe, but I do think that the Northeast in any ski region benefits from having strong independent operators. I'm pulling up Burke's old trail maps for those following along here. So Burke, the trail network's been similar for years and years, but there used to be some more lifts. So here we're going all the way back.01:45:19.000 --> 01:45:27.000Stuart Winchester: 1983, when Burke was sponsored by Camel. Can you imagine? Camel cigarettes, guys.01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: One of our ski coaches was a, um…01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: A Marlboro man.01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you see different lifts here. So you see the Summit lift, which was replaced. Now this is a high-speed quad. And there was another lift over here. So looking at Burke's modern trail map here, John, I believe there's some room for expansion out here. I believe you could probably infill some lifts. So what are your thoughts on Burke now that you've had a year running that guy?01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think Burke's an awesome mountain.01:45:55.000 --> 01:46:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, if we're talking about the trail map, we've got the green section down here in Sherbourne, which is one of the best beginner mountains.01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that was a little bit of a.01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Surprise for me, because I spent most of my time at Burke on Warren's way.01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:10.000 --> 01:46:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: facing, and then…01:46:12.000 --> 01:46:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: Big Dipper. I think we raised the first Eastern Cup there the day after the Pats won their first Super Bowl.01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which was awesome. Middlebury showed up with no time to inspect, because it was a late night, but it was…01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: Lots of energy, um…01:46:28.000 --> 01:46:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then the Upper Mountain, and you can kind of see, if you go back up to the Upper Mountain, just how steep… you see where all the black diamonds are in the middle, in the double blacks? That's just a feature of the resort, so…01:46:32.000 --> 01:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Mm-hmm.01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's hard to get…01:46:41.000 --> 01:46:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there's a total lack of green trails from the summit, and that's a priority for us, is increasing that blue access over the next couple of years.01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: But also, you know, we've done a ton of snowmaking that work there. I think we…01:46:56.000 --> 01:47:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: We knocked out… we were able to cut 500 hours of snowmaking time.01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Year over year.01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: and open more terrain, far more terrain than the year prior. And so.01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:09.000Stuart Winchester: Amazing.01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: We, uh…01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are doing a lot more work this year. And so last year, it's like the wave on the beach analogy. We were able to throw a big wave up on the beach and we got a ton of stuff done. But this year, it's a lot of the interconnections and sort of like finishing off the work. I'd say we got 80% of the way home last year.01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:23.000 --> 01:47:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: And this year, a few more guns, filling in some holes, moving water around more effectively.01:47:37.000 --> 01:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think people are going to notice maybe even as big a difference as the year prior. Midburg Lodge is getting some updates.01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, it…01:47:48.000 --> 01:48:15.000Stuart Winchester: How did that translate business-wise, John? You know, Burke had sort of been, it had been in receivership for nine years when you purchased it, and it was part of the whole Jay Peak scandal, and Jay Peak got purchased in 2022 by Pacific Group Resorts, but Burke was still orphaned, and not that there weren't capable folks running it, but the first thing you did was, I think, triple snowmaking capacity. So how did that translate business, skier visits-wise? What can you tell us about last year at Burke and the kind of momentum you were able to establish there?01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: So I do believe that energy at a resort is a very palpable thing. You can either feel it, or you can't. You know, you've all been places, and it's like, oh, what happened to the restaurant? And it's like, oh, the chef left, and.01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: You just know it's over yet.01:48:31.000 --> 01:48:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know the receivership was. It was sort of like slack tide for that mountain for almost a decade, you know, is not really coming or going, and I think our us stepping up and the grand family's commitment to the resort, which is runs really deep.01:48:48.000 --> 01:48:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: was able to bring some of that, inject that energy. And then the next step.01:48:54.000 --> 01:49:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: is, and I've been doing the Ted Lasso analogies with you for years, but it's like getting people, not only the resort staff, but the guests to believe.01:49:04.000 --> 01:49:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, that it is a great mountain. There's phenomenal glades. You know, I… I was stuck on Warren's Way half my life whenever I'd be there, but, you know, so it was a revelation what the glades were like. Um…01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: in the… in the acquisition period, and then skiing them last year. It's a… it's a great mountain. I don't think it's ever really had its chance. I think we're the seventh or eighth ownership group. That thing is like a…01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: a ship without a rock, without a lighthouse that ships keep running into, and we're gonna try to avoid being the next ship that breaks apart on those rocks right there. But I think there's a really thoughtful way to do it.01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: quite frankly, it's shocking how close it is to people. You know, I don't think people realize that it's really not that much further from Boston than a Mount Snow or a Killington. Obviously, it doesn't have the scale of those resorts. Um…01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: But it does have that sense of community.01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: it's a great mountain, it's a beautiful hotel, and… and the town itself is full of wonderful restaurants, largely supported by Kingdom Trails and skiers, you know, so it's a very adventurous… we did a kickoff party there, and…01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, there's…01:50:11.000 --> 01:50:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: Eight Olympians.01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, at the kickoff party that live in and around that town.01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:19.000Stuart Winchester: Incredible.01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it attracts a really diverse set of outdoor adventurers, and it's a… it's a throwback community. And uh… I think as our guests start to discover it, you know, in the wintertime, I think a lot of people discovered it for KT.01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which we're also doing a lot of work.01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: With to integrate with Kingdom trails, and we're the largest single owner of Kingdom trails, and so it's.01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:44.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, people start to feel that energy. And.01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: Again, we're here to work it and to build it and, you know, do our best to caretake it.01:50:50.000 --> 01:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks far north, John, but it's right off I-91, and I agree, there's some of the best glades in New England. Let's talk quickly about Berkshire East, where you've teased an expansion for several years, I believe, right over in this area.01:51:02.000 --> 01:51:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're going on a decade, I think.01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Is it right over here? Am I pointing to the right place? Farlookers right on the trail map?01:51:05.000 --> 01:51:06.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, it goes from the wind turbine.01:51:12.000 --> 01:51:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Where the thunder writing is, somewhere right in there.01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:16.000 --> 01:51:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.01:51:17.000 --> 01:51:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: in between Mohawk and Thunder down over towards those fields at the lower left. I would say it's not well represented on on this map. But.01:51:25.000 --> 01:51:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so there's more terrain. Is it basically in here, or is it over on this side?01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's thunder is sort of like the off ramp for it. So it's the return.01:51:34.000 --> 01:51:38.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, so you would go into Thunder off the back of the mountain?01:51:37.000 --> 01:51:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: You would go off of… you see where Rogers World is? The lift would go through Rogers World.01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:41.000Stuart Winchester: Here.01:51:41.000 --> 01:51:42.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:51:44.000 --> 01:51:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: Through to the wind turbine, and there'd be 3 or 4 trails back there, and…01:51:46.000 --> 01:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: It hasn't quite launched yet.01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:51.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.01:51:52.000 --> 01:52:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: But again, you know, it's easy to cut this stuff, it's easy to build it, it's harder to actually operate it and take care of it, so we keep optimizing our resort, you know, and the snowmaking there, and then…01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: Hopefully, we'll get to a point here where that's doable again. So.01:52:08.000 --> 01:52:23.000Stuart Winchester: And you took out a triple chair that was based this summer right here. That was a used lift from Ski Rio New Mexico. I think the plan was to put it over here. I don't know, it looks like you could probably serve it with the existing lifts, but any thoughts on lifts or not as part of the expansion?01:52:13.000 --> 01:52:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: It would require a lift, yeah.01:52:25.000 --> 01:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: So.01:52:27.000 --> 01:52:45.000Stuart Winchester: But not… it doesn't sound like, uh, like you can put a timeline on it, and last time you were on, you also talked about a potential expansion at Catamount. Again, I'm looking at the trail map. Uh, if you look at the far right side of the trail map, I believe that's where the potential expansion was. Any thoughts on… on that, or are you pretty happy with Catamount as it is?01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: No.01:52:45.000 --> 01:52:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are, uh…01:52:48.000 --> 01:53:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: I would say that we're never complacent, right? So the idea of happy is very temporal and focused on what's going on. I think at all these mountains, we're focused on snowmaking. Folks will see some snowmaking upgrades at all the resorts.01:52:54.000 --> 01:52:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:06.000Jonathan Schaefer: So in terms of lift layouts, you know it's.01:53:06.000 --> 01:53:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those are private landowners that you happen to point out up there, so they may or may not be the right, you know, people to point your mouse at.01:53:10.000 --> 01:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:15.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: it's all on the table, right? And it's just a matter. Now my job is to really, you know, look at four resorts and what their needs are.01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:24.000 --> 01:53:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: and advance the ones that make the most sense.01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: from resort to resort to resort, and categorize those. And a lot of what we've been doing this year, I mean, this conversation has been very appropriately anchored in, um, sort of asset upgrades.01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: But I'm trying to build an organization that can really thoughtfully run this.01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: these resorts and do a good job with it and build the right team.01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so a lot of the governance and organizational work that we've done this year will really help support those.01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: going forward into future years. So.01:53:58.000 --> 01:54:16.000Stuart Winchester: So talk a little about that. Actually leave us with that today, John, because I just find the Schaefer family story so compelling. You know, Roy drove his station wagon out from Michigan full of kids and just, you know, bought this junky mountain and fixed it up, you know, just out there buying scrap from all over the country.01:54:09.000 --> 01:54:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:54:16.000 --> 01:54:23.000Stuart Winchester: And, uh, then handed it off to you and your brother, who modernized it. And, and you've, you've built, uh…01:54:23.000 --> 01:54:30.000Stuart Winchester: you know, you've built now this four-mountain portfolio, so a couple elements to that is, number one, if I have this right.01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:43.000Stuart Winchester: you actually sold Catamount Berkshires to Bearden, so you're no longer the owner, you're an employee, probably for the first time, really, in your life, you know, and not part of a… necessarily a family-owned thing.01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: Mm-hmm.01:54:41.000 --> 01:54:44.000Jonathan Schaefer: Outside is an ice cream.01:54:43.000 --> 01:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so what's that transition been like, I guess?01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: emotionally, and how do you handle that professionally? Like, going from, you know, your dad out there with a hammer, you know.01:54:56.000 --> 01:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: nailing up some snow gun to, uh, I know that's not how you put up a snow gun, but, um, but to, you know, running a professional organization that oversees four mountains in three states.01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: Evolve or die, right? So I couldn't be more fired up about it. There's Ken Graham and I had the opportunity to build five years of trust. We worked on Burke for four or five years. And that could be, you know, five calls a week or one call every five months. You know, it's hard to say, but we really stuck it out together.01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: and had a good understanding of of who we were as people and as families. You know their their dad's a Michigan family, too. They are a Michigan family. The grandfather was a ecologist working for the University of Michigan. So it's a lot of shared family history here. Ski racing.01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that's important when you do this stuff because these, you're in it for the long haul. You know, you jump into rapids with somebody and you want to know what they're about. And so we had that opportunity and it wasn't as spontaneous as it may have seen on the outside.01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: So…01:56:00.000 --> 01:56:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: There's there's also pieces of the organization that I always wanted to bring.01:56:05.000 --> 01:56:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I wrote my Berkshire operator manual in 2015, and it was clunky, and…01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:56:12.000 -->

Miliony osób rozmawiają dziś z chatbotami o swoich emocjach, lękach i kryzysach. Czy to bezpieczne?Najnowsze badanie opublikowane w „Nature Medicine" daje niepokojącą odpowiedź — i to nie taką, jakiej można by się spodziewać.Badacze przeanalizowali 810 rozmów z dziewięcioma najpopularniejszymi chatbotami, symulując użytkowników z depresją, psychozą, manią, OCD i lękowym stylem przywiązania.Okazało się, że największe ryzyko bierze się z tego, co potwierdza i wzmacnia. I to nie od pierwszego zdania. W tym odcinku podcastu tłumaczę:– dlaczego życzliwy chatbot bywa groźny– przy jakich stanach psychicznych ryzyko rośnie najszybciej,– dlaczego pojedyncza odpowiedź AI może wyglądać niewinnie, a cała rozmowa już nie,– co z tego wynika praktycznie dla nas, naszych bliskich i osób, z którymi pracujemy.Źródło omawianego badania:Weilnhammer, V., Hou, K.Y., Luettgau, L. et al. A clinically validated framework for auditing AI chatbot behavior in mental health interactions. Nat Med (2026). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-026-04577-2☕ Jeśli ten odcinek był dla Ciebie wartościowy, możesz podziękować symboliczną kawą: buycoffee.to/bognabialecka. Dzięki takiemu wsparciu powstają kolejne materiały — oparte na badaniach, nie na domysłach.Znajdujesz inspirację w tym, co słyszysz? Możesz qesprzeć twórcę!https://buycoffee.to/bognabialecka

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is stocking up on canned corn ahead of the Robot Apocalypse. To support this worthy cause, please sign up for my skiing newsletter:Today's episode answers questions from paid subscribers. I'm not including the Zoom transcript since I am the only one speaking, and the built-in transcript (click button above) will take you to any point in the audio when you click on the associated text block. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Boortz joins Kimmer for a wide-ranging conversation about President Trump, Iran, the Department of Education, the White House press, media coverage, old Atlanta, Babylon Bee, his new bus, and some classic Boortz stories from the slopes of Vail to the Mayflower. Follow XTRA 106.3:Website | YouTube | Facebook | X/Twitter | Instagram Download the XTRA 106.3 App:iOS | Android See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Boortz joins Kimmer for a wide-ranging conversation about President Trump, Iran, the Department of Education, the White House press, media coverage, old Atlanta, Babylon Bee, his new bus, and some classic Boortz stories from the slopes of Vail to the Mayflower. Follow XTRA 106.3:Website | YouTube | Facebook | X/Twitter | Instagram Download the XTRA 106.3 App:iOS | Android See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Boortz joins Kimmer for a wide-ranging conversation about President Trump, Iran, the Department of Education, the White House press, media coverage, old Atlanta, Babylon Bee, his new bus, and some classic Boortz stories from the slopes of Vail to the Mayflower. Follow XTRA 106.3:Website | YouTube | Facebook | X/Twitter | Instagram Download the XTRA 106.3 App:iOS | Android Atlanta's ONLY All Conservative News & Talk Station.: https://www.xtra1063.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast likes it when ski areas are run by people who are good at running ski areas. Please subscribe to the email newsletter to get new posts the moment they're live. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CamelbackOwned by: EPR Properties, managed by Peregrine Hospitality (formerly KSL Resorts)Located in: Tannersville, PennsylvaniaYear founded: 1963Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Shawnee Mountain (:24), Jack Frost (:26), Big Boulder (:27), Skytop Lodge (:29), Saw Creek (:37), Blue Mountain (:41), Pocono Ranchlands (:43), Montage (:44), Hideout (:51), Elk Mountain (1:05), Bear Creek (1:09), Ski Big Bear (1:16)Base elevation: 1,252 feetSummit elevation: 2,079 feetVertical drop: 827 feetSkiable Acres: 166Average annual snowfall: 50 inchesTrail count: 45, with three new trails for 2026-27 (not on the map below, but discussed on the podcast)Lift count: 12 (1 high-speed six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Camelback's lift fleet)For reference:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:37.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Wednesday, September 16th, 2026, and I've got a really good show for you today.00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:45.000Stuart Winchester: we're going to talk some Pennsylvania skiing. And Pennsylvania skiing is a really interesting thing. As I travel around the country.00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:56.000Stuart Winchester: and ski at all these different places in the Midwest, and out West, and in New England, and in the Mid-Atlantic. Uh, and as I talk to folks who… who don't ski that much, or only ski at the big mountains.00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:05.000Stuart Winchester: I'll often bring up some experience I had at a Pennsylvania ski area. Pennsylvania has quite a few ski areas as 21.00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:20.000Stuart Winchester: public chairlift-served ski areas, and it does 2.6 million skier visits on average per year. That is more than any state except for Colorado, California, Utah, Vermont, and New York.00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.000Stuart Winchester: It's more than Washington, it's more than Oregon, it's more than Montana, it's more than New.00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:39.000Stuart Winchester: So, Pennsylvania is a really important ski state, which is probably why Vail Resorts owns 8 ski areas there, because it is really close to a lot of population centers. In western PA, you have Pittsburgh.00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: and Seven Springs, and Laurel, and Hidden Valley, and then you have Philadelphia on the east side, and you can also draw up from Baltimore and D.C. for Round Top and Whitetail. And uh…00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.000Stuart Winchester: And Jack Frost's Big Boulder up in the Poconos. So…00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: Vail has a big presence there.00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:15.000Stuart Winchester: Icon has a presence there with Camelback and Blue Mountain. Uh, and then Indy Pass just signed their 8th ski area in Pennsylvania with Spring Mountain, uh, down near Philadelphia. So, so it's, it's a place where a lot of skiers start.00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.000Stuart Winchester: And it's a little bit of a funny place to ski, because…00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: it tends to have an outsized number of novice skiers, which is great. They're very good at doing that. Uh, but it can make it a little chaotic.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: And the lift lines can get a little crazy, and people are all over the hill, and sometimes they're walking down the hill because they're frustrated and they're giving up.00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and…00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.000Stuart Winchester: You take that as your baseline in Pennsylvania.00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.000Stuart Winchester: And you had any sort of complications.00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:54.000Stuart Winchester: And things get out of hand really quickly. And in general.00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:00.000Stuart Winchester: For that reason, the ski areas that have survived in Pennsylvania.00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:07.000Stuart Winchester: are among the best operators in the world, and I would put that up against anyone.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: It's a very, very challenging environment, not only because you have a high number of novice skiers.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but also because you have…00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:31.000Stuart Winchester: not a ton of snow, sometimes in the west part of the state, where there's higher elevation, they do get a lot of snow, but… but not as a rule, you couldn't count on it for natural snow. Uh, you get a lot of rain, you get a lot of warm-ups.00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and… and you, in general, have to rely on…00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:42.000Stuart Winchester: a very short season, generally mid-December-ish to mid-March-ish.00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiers there…00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: They're they're accustomed to a pretty high standard, so.00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:57.000Stuart Winchester: So when things do get out of control, uh…00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: They really rebelled, and they really noticed. So, a couple years ago, this is what happened at Camelback. So, Camelback…00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I don't generally do ops stories, uh…00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.000Stuart Winchester: ski area didn't groom this run, or they haven't opened this lift, or, uh, you know, they usually let this bump up, but they don't, or, or…00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:27.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they… they are trying to save money, or they're being cheap. I generally don't bother with those, even though I get a lot of messages.00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: Complaining about things like that, because there's almost always a pretty good reason.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and it's almost always temporary, and it's really not worth the effort.00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: to write the story if I'm just writing about, you know, why Stratton or Mount Snow or Magic Mountain didn't open a certain lift on a certain day.00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's, it's a lot to track down and it's a lot of, uh, this person said this and the other person said that. It's just not the kind of thing that I'm want to cover with the storm, right? I want to do bigger stories. I want to do trend stories. I want to look at the culture and evolution of skiing.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the passes, and all the infrastructure, and all the fun stuff. So I don't generally cover the day-to-day stuff, just because…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:18.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that remain in 2026 are, for the most part, run by really good operators.00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it… because… and they've survived. Most of the bad ski areas that were either mismanaged or were in the wrong places, they went out of business a long time ago, which is why the number of ski areas has been stable for around 25 years now in America.00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: So I but I started to notice.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: several years ago that I was getting an outsized number of complaints around one ski area in particular in the Poconos.00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: And it was Camelback.00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000Stuart Winchester: And Camelback had a long history of being an independent.00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: Really…00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: the way it's been described to me by… by season pass holders, and I've skied…00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: some at Camelback, but I don't have that depth of knowledge of having grown up there.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:20.000Stuart Winchester: That Camelback for a long time, for decades, set the standard on snowmaking, on grooming, on just general maintenance of lifts in the ski area in the Poconos. And that was why they had chosen to ski there all those years.00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: But things had started to fall apart when a new owner showed up in 2019. It was at the time KSL Capital, who was.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: was managing it for EPR Properties, which is the entity that bought it, and they own a bunch of ski areas, EPR Properties, including a bunch owned by Vail, including North Star, and a lot of the old Peak Resorts in Ohio and such.00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.000Stuart Winchester: And KSL Resorts was a division of KSL Capital.00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.000Stuart Winchester: which is a part owner of Altera.00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000Stuart Winchester: But for some reason, Altera, which is very good at running ski resorts.00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: did not…00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:15.000Stuart Winchester: get assigned as the… as the owner of Camelback. And when KSL Resorts purchased Blue Mountain, not in Ontario, the Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania, that's about 45 minutes from Camelback, two years later, in 2021.00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:26.000Stuart Winchester: That ski area also did not fall under Altera's ownership. And it was an odd choice to make, because Altera's really good at running ski areas, and they run…00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mammoth, and Deer Valley, and Steamboat, and Solitude, and Palisades Tahoe, and Stratton, and Sugarbush, and they definitely have.00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.000Stuart Winchester: the institutional knowledge and internal firepower to be able to run these ski areas in the Poconos.00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Blue Mountain…00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000Stuart Winchester: Had the benefit of a long time tenured management team.00:10:47.000 --> 00:11:02.000Stuart Winchester: That kept the place, by all accounts, running pretty well. Camelback, on the other hand, seemed to be falling apart before our eyes, and before the eyes of the loyalist skiers who loved the place so much. And they were really, really concerned, and I started to…00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Because they had put, uh, a management team in place, it seemed.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.000Stuart Winchester: that…00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:22.000Stuart Winchester: was not familiar with the… with the inner workings of a ski area. Uh, I… I hosted Dave Makarski, the former general manager of Kalenbach, on this podcast.00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: and very nice guy. We had a great conversation. Uh, he's not a skier. And, and, you know, sometimes you can be not a skier and run a great ski resort. Uh, look at Bill Stritzler up at Smuggler's Notch.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Bill hasn't skied in years, and he snowboarded for a little bit, but he's not a daily skier. Look at Shawnee.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: that where the owner… that's one of the most modern, nice ski areas in the Poconos, uh, and the owner has not skied in decades. So, so it's not always necessary, uh, but…00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: It does help and it's certainly a benefit. So everyone I talked to, I was, I was gathering all this stuff for a story and I was gonna write about Camelback and, and it, it really seemed like it was the worst run ski area anywhere that I could find based on the amount of feedback I was getting.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: I was gathering all this feedback from all these long-time pass holders, and then they hired a new general manager, and so I scrapped the story, but I still wanted to get it, and by all accounts, Jason Bays, who I'll bring on the podcast in a moment.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:34.000Stuart Winchester: has really done a nice job of turning CamelBak around. So, so let's go to Jason now.00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:16.000Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the Vice President and General Manager of Camelback Ski Area in Pennsylvania.00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:26.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback runs six chairlifts, or maybe seven. I might have had a typo there. Serving 45 trails on an 827-foot vertical drop.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:41.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Camelback, he was general manager for Great Wolf Resorts around the United States. He also spent time as chief operating officer and general manager of Mountain Creek Ski Area in New Jersey and director of operations.00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: for Jay Peak, Vermont. His very first jobs as a teenager were as a lifeguard and ski instructor at Camelback. Jason Bay is my guest. Jason, welcome to the Storm. Awesome to have you. How you doing today?00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:00.000Jason Bays: Thank you, Stuart. Great to be here. I've been a listener from day one, so excited to join you.00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: I love that. I'm so hyped to hear that. I know I started with a little Northeast focus. You know, you're the… you probably know this already, but you're the second straight guest I've had on. There was a Mountain Creek alum, Chris Haggerty, on yesterday. Are you acquainted with Chris?00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.000Jason Bays: Yeah, Chris and I worked together, um, back in our days at Mountain Creek, great guy.00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm not sure, I'm sure you're aware I'm based in New York City and Mountain Creek is one of my go-tos and, and was my home mountain before I started traveling all over the place for the storm. So, so, you know, Jason, I, I think it's awesome that you grew up at Camelback. Tal.00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:41.000Stuart Winchester: your childhood Camelback. What was the kingdom of Camelback like to you, uh, when you were growing up skiing there?00:15:40.000 --> 00:16:03.000Jason Bays: Yeah, look, I, you know, took, I grew up in Pocono Kid, born and raised 10 minutes from the resort. After school ski program was the first, you know, first sort of foray into life at Camelback and was immediately hooked in the summer as a swimming pool and two water slides. I thought that was the most awesome place in the world too.00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:21.000Jason Bays: And my parents thought it was a great babysitting service, you know, relative to that. So it was just an awesome, awesome place to grow up and, you know, be part of the small but mighty ski community that is Tannersville, Pennsylvania, in this area, in the Poconos.00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:39.000Jason Bays: um, you know, when it came to get a first job, uh, there's no place I was, uh, gonna consider other than Camelback. It's where all my friends were, it's where we all hung out all the time, and, um, you know, really just got introduced to, uh, to the sport, and, um, had some freedom. It was the first time I had some freedom, and it was to be at Camelback, so that's.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:56.000Stuart Winchester: So you worked there, and you were part of the machine, so to speak, and I realized you were sort of on the peripheral of the machine, as opposed to in the center of it, as you are now. But, you know, you grew up in the Poconos, and had that experience, and you had this vision of Camelback in your head, right? Then you went off and had a big life, as…00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Jason Bays: Yes.00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: as people do, and you went and worked at all these places that I just mentioned.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: And then you came back to Camelback.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: When you, when you arrived.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: How had the place changed? And I just want to tee this up. I, you know.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:19.000Stuart Winchester: before you came on, I was talking about how I don't generally write operations stories, right? Because it… there's usually a good reason for why a trail is closed, a lift's not running.00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but a few years ago, I started to get an outsized number of complaints about Camelback.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:38.000Stuart Winchester: And so I started to write a story about it, and then when you came along, I shelved it, because honestly, everyone immediately was like, oh, this is so much better. So, you know, how had…00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback changed.00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: when you…00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000Stuart Winchester: Came back to work there.00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:51.000Stuart Winchester: And what were the challenges facing the resort? What did you focus on immediately?00:17:50.000 --> 00:18:08.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I'll just back up to say, you know, just to contextualize, um, from when I was there as a teenager and, um, through college on the ski team, too, I would say that community was a really big word, um, that was used all the time. You, you felt like it was, it was the Camelback community, and there's a really big emphasis on the ski product.00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:28.000Jason Bays: Um, as a ski instructor, like, what we were putting out, how we were doing lessons, how many lessons we could do, and the experience that was surrounding that. And same thing on the water park side. And, you know, I think the, um, you know, some of the observations, um, coming back to Camelback was, um, I think there's a little bit of focus, um, focus direction for, for, like, to focus on the ski product.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:44.000Jason Bays: and focusing on the water park product, and I sort of look at it as, like, a… as Disney World, right? Whereas we fill out… if we do the ski part well, we do the snow tubing part well, we do the water park well, that puts heads in beds, um, versus trying to put heads in beds.00:18:44.000 --> 00:19:01.000Jason Bays: And then have them do the activities. We're leading with an activity front and centered focus. And that means making the strategic investments in the ski product, in our recreational product, and making that the very best that it can be.00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:23.000Jason Bays: back in 2008 when I was here as a teenager, that was all there was. There was no hotel product, right? So the ski product got outsized attention just naturally because it was a 560-acre resort that identified as a ski area and a water park. And I think some of the context that was missing was that while there's been a great evolution of Camelback as a four-season resort.00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:40.000Jason Bays: It's really important that, to me, that each of those business units gets the time and attention that they would deserve if they were stand-alone units, particularly because a cog… it's a cog in the wheel, and that wheel is… it's a flywheel. It needs to… it all needs to turn at once, and so we lead with.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000Jason Bays: the recreational offerings first.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, you mentioned the community, and I wasn't aware…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: that there was such a strong community around Camelback, and I'm not surprised, because most ski areas have that group of folks who, you know, they're retirees, and they boot up at 8am, and they take runs together.00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:14.000Stuart Winchester: But they were really passionate, and the running theme, Jason, in the emails and messages that I got from Camelback locals was that they loved Camelback. It wasn't that they hated Camelback, they hated to complain about Camelback.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: They wanted to love it, but they couldn't. There was there was.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of things they cited, uh, not making snowmaking when it's cold, understaffed grooming, uh, missed lift inspections. I don't know if this is true. This is what people were… they were reaching, I think, for answers. Uh, put it all together, and there was… it was definitely…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: seemed as though the ski product was not the focus. So when you came in, what did you focus on right away and say, okay, this is what we gotta change, you know, we have to cover every trail 100% right away, or whatever it was?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:09.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I think that's, look, I would start, you hit the nail on the head that there's a very passionate skiing community here at Camelback and in the Poconos and it means a lot to people. This is second, third generations that are learning to ski here, bring their families here and be part of this. And to your point, everyone wants to be prideful of Camelback, right?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:24.000Jason Bays: This was the, this was family run for a really long time and, you know, very focused on sort of the, you know, season pass holders renewing year after year.00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:40.000Jason Bays: You know, a couple of things. One is I think that how we authentically tell our story isn't done in a way that is, you know, is done in a way that's authentic. A, bringing back the Camelback Mountain Facebook page that communicated ski related content.00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:22:06.000Jason Bays: Right? I think that, you know, there's only so many things you can say about a hotel room and how exciting it is. Like, we really lead now first with authentically telling the story. Our snow report got a lot more detailed, gave granular information as to what was going on. So, you know, did we have a perfect winter last winter? By all means, no, but we communicated that authentically. And where we messed up, we took.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:23.000Jason Bays: the blame for it, and said, hey, we didn't get this right, and where we were working to improve the experience, we communicated that… communicated that story. So, to me, it started from a communication standpoint, that we were authentic, that we were honest, that we were truthful, and that we were communicating on a medium that.00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:31.000Jason Bays: our guests would see, um, and relate to. So I think a big miss was, I think, admittedly, a big miss was removing the, um, Camelback Mountain.00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:53.000Jason Bays: social media pages, um, and bringing those back were really important so that, um, we could tell the story authentically. I think SKUs really appreciate, um, knowing what's going on, and to your point on, hey, there's sort of this rumor flying or that rumor flying, um, you know, we were able to, uh, sort of hone in and, and tell, tell that story. Secondarily, I think from an infrastructure standpoint.00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:09.000Jason Bays: um, we really needed to make sure that we had, um, the right team in place. And we have an amazingly talented team at Camelback, um, but we did not have key positions filled, um, in certain areas. Um, and so, we bolstered up the snowmaking. Snowmaking team went from.00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000Stuart Winchester: Like, what areas?00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:30.000Jason Bays: you know, 3 to 4 to 30, um, this past winter, um, that makes a big difference, right? Our trail rollout was, um, you know, first to open in the East, uh, for Pennsylvania, um, and, uh, um, and, and focus on the core products. Um, same thing with lift operations. We brought in a really experienced lift, uh, maintenance manager.00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.000Stuart Winchester: Hey!00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:46.000Jason Bays: Um, to our team that really helped, um, support our Lyft, um, uh, operation. Um, decisions on when Lyfts ran and what time they ran, uh, you know, our thought was, let's, um, be more… like, you have to run the Terrain Park Lyft every day.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:06.000Jason Bays: to me, that's a commitment. We make that every day. We say we're running the Glen Lift every day. It services great novice terrain. It services the train park. And so, looking at the operational plan and saying, okay, what are ways that we can give back, you know, and make deposits back to our skiers? And in turn.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:24.000Jason Bays: that builds momentum, right? People talk, and, like, the ski community is so connected, right? It's like, if you do something, like, people find out about it, because they're really, you know, they hear about it. And so, for us, focus on the core business was, um, you know, from a ski standpoint, was really important, and the infrastructure.00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:41.000Jason Bays: to be able to do it. And I would just, lastly, just say I go back to making sure that our team had the resources to do their job. We're supported, we're empowered, collaborative leadership, you know, we sat around the table and said, this is the operating plan, this is what we're going to do for our guests.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:46.000Jason Bays: And then go out and execute it to the best we can.00:24:45.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Jason, I, I, I think you could have run for governor with one of the first things that you did, which was get rid of paid parking. I, I, I don't think that I've ever, uh, heard people happier about anything. Now, now, and let me, let me qualify this, right? I think in, in some instances, paid parking and parking reservations.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.000Stuart Winchester: make sense.00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:18.000Stuart Winchester: you know, super high volume days. Arapahoe Basin, I think, is a model in Colorado where they only charge for certain days and certain times, and they keep backing off which days as they learn when they really need it. Camelback was charging every day.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:36.000Stuart Winchester: All day, you know, a Monday with, you know, 10 people on the mountain, they were charging for it. And, you know, acknowledging that sometimes it's appropriate, I think Camelback got pretty out of hand with it, and when I had Mr. Markowski on the podcast, great guy, we had a great conversation, but he was not backing off that. He said, nope, paid parking.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: we're all in. You said no. So talk about that and how you sold. I'd imagine it was a revenue stream, right? And you had to sell management on that, and I don't know if I'm giving you credit for something someone else did, but talk to us about parking and the evolution there.00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:12.000Jason Bays: Yeah, that was a week one decision from the Camelback team when I got here made from our leadership team at Camelback that everyone was in alignment on our senior leadership team here at the property and myself to remove the paid parking. And I think definitely there's actually you have so many nice pictures behind you.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:30.000Jason Bays: I have a picture of the old paid parking sign behind me there, if you can see it on the corner, and it actually serves to me as a reminder of the guest experience, because someone's put a sticker on that paid parking sign that you probably can't see there, but it says, Ski Camelback, we're not happy until you're not happy.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:48.000Jason Bays: Um, and it's a reminder to, to me and our team, um, that we're here to have fun, and we're here for the guest experience, and we're here to live, live and breathe fun Camelback style. This is not a, um, you know, we want guests to look forward to, to being here. And I think, you know, yes, there was.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:05.000Jason Bays: So obviously we ran a financial model. We didn't just, you know, get rid of paid parking and not assume, you know, that there wasn't some revenue to be recaptured elsewhere with a strategy to do it. But I think more importantly, you know, think about it.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:22.000Jason Bays: a non-busy day, it might even be raining, it's 40 degrees, the last thing you want is someone running around a parking lot telling you, like, hey, I need you to hand over $15, and by the way, then you're gonna schlep your stuff up two different levels of parking, um, you know, that might be even charged higher, and then get to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:38.000Jason Bays: uh, the mountain and go to guest services. You know, I have a 3-year-old. If my wife and I went skiing, that would be an incredible amount of friction, um, just to get to, uh, the front of the mountain. And so I think putting ourselves in the guest lens of saying, is that really what we want the guests to experience?00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:53.000Jason Bays: Um, it's not, and, and it was a burden to everyone at this, you know, you think I'm talking about, we talked to frontline associates too, like, the first thing that they had to tell people was that they had to pay for parking. You just imagine, sort of, the cascading effect that, that, that, uh, that that had, and we said, look, is there.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:09.000Jason Bays: Um, is there a better way? Um, can we run shuttles to these lots and pick people up and bring them to the mountain and make them feel, um, you know, like our valued… like our valued guests? What does that arrival experience look like? Um, you know, that's really what we… what we looked at, and then said, okay.00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:25.000Jason Bays: can we… ultimately, will we drive more volume here? Will more people come because of a better guest experience? And I'll say that I would rather grow the sport, grow the industry. Our team would rather grow the sport and grow the industry than figuring out how to.00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Jason Bays: You know, sort of, you know, run a secondary ancillary business that's not to our core product and what we want our guests to experience here.00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, it's a little counterintuitive, but sometimes, by removing a revenue stream, you get that less-is-more effect. Another example, your season pass, you know, according to my records.00:28:48.000 --> 00:29:04.000Stuart Winchester: Starting in 2020 to ‘21, the season pass was $599 at its early bird price, and it hovered between that and $649 for the next five years. This year, you put it on sale for $399. It's still at that price for unlimited Camelback.00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:20.000Stuart Winchester: That's a great bargain for, uh, for a season pass on the East Coast, and, you know, for the listeners, you are competing with the Epic Pass, which has Jack Frost, Big Boulder, right down the road, a couple exits down I-80, and their Northeast season pass is pretty affordable, and it's a pretty good deal.00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:33.000Stuart Winchester: So… so talk to us about that decision and… and… and how… how that $399 is worth it. You also wrote back, if you want to talk about, uh, the… the triple pack. I thought that was great, and I don't have the price right in front of me, but… but you've really done a lot to… to…00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.000Stuart Winchester: create more of a value experience for that loyal Camelback skier, from my point of view.00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:55.000Jason Bays: Yeah, thank you, and that's definitely the goal. Um, you know, I think our thought process here is let's get more people on Snow, um, and have them have a great experience while they're here. Um, I would love to tell you that there's some master business plan behind this.00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:10.000Jason Bays: But, you know, truly, at the heart of what we do is, let's figure out how to get more people on snow, get them to a spot where they want to come back and learn and be part of it. And guess what I would just share to that is.00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:24.000Jason Bays: you know, we were charging a day ticket in 2025 of $169, um, at its highest point, right? And I would rather have a lifelong… I would rather have one per… I would much rather, I think from business proposition, we would rather have.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:39.000Jason Bays: one person definitely not come and spend $15 to $40 to park and $169 and say, I'm never coming back, versus $399, now they're like, wow, this place is awesome, I'm getting a great value, I bring my family.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000Stuart Winchester: Damn.00:30:39.000 --> 00:31:01.000Jason Bays: I want to come enjoy food and beverage. And hey, by the way, we also have this great snow tubing park and this great water park. And would you like to stay at our hotel when you come with your season pass and enjoy Aquatopia? And we're debuting The Curse of Camelback this fall, right? Which is the Halloween, if you haven't heard, it's a Halloween 13 scare zones. Take a chair, lift up to it.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:24.000Jason Bays: But I say all that to say we've got so many great cross marketing promotional opportunities at Camelback that that really becomes a super compelling business case for us. And I think it's the right thing to do for the sport is grow it, make it more accessible, allow more people to come here and see what we have to offer. I can't tell you how many people I meet, whether it's snow tubing, skiing.00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:41.000Jason Bays: water park, the hotel, whatever they're here for, CBKMA or Adventure Park, they have no idea that the other part exists to, um, the resort. And I'll share that that's been the case even in, like, when I was, uh, at Jay Peak running the water park.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.000Jason Bays: People would come there, and they'd be like.00:31:43.000 --> 00:32:02.000Jason Bays: what is this mountain that is here? And it's Jay Peak, like, one of the most hardcore ski resorts in the world. And there were people that were coming there and were like, I had no idea there was a ski resort here. So, if it's true at Jay Peak, it certainly is true at Camelback, where.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:19.000Jason Bays: we have all these different offerings that people don't know about, maybe necessarily about all of them, so our fundamental business philosophy is make it accessible, make them lifelong, um, skiers and riders, and introduce them to everything that we have to offer here in the Poconos. And I would just argue, when I say Poconos.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:41.000Jason Bays: Like go, like experience Shawnee and experience Jack Frost Big Boulder and experience, you know, the other great ski areas in this region and Mountain Creek and wherever else and get a flavor for it. I think that's, we could use more skiers in the industry and to grow the sport. So for us, that's sort of the long-term business model that we're using.00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, I just looked at the triple ticket, and it looks like $149, and I think that's no blackouts. $199 includes rentals. That's pretty amazing. So, talk about that product, and then you mentioned the $169 peak day ticket. Have you settled on prices yet for 2020?00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:03.000Stuart Winchester: 6, 27. I should have checked your site in advance, but I didn't. So I don't know if you've.00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we have not, uh, posted, uh, day ticket prices for this year. Last year, um, we didn't exceed around $110, um, on a day ticket. Uh, so we kept it, I think, pretty reasonable for, for, for a, for a Pocono offering. Um, triple tickets, massive, um, success, uh, for us.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:37.000Jason Bays: Um, and when we talk about, like, again, getting more people introduced to the sport, you don't necessarily pick up skiing on the first time. Um, you think about that rental product, which we, um, tremendously… whatever we had on the pro forma for that was, uh, blown by by, like.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:53.000Jason Bays: 400% on the triple ticket with rentals. And what I really believe in is that, you know, you become a lifelong skier by getting repetition, not by going once a year. It's really hard to sustain as a skier going once a year.00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:11.000Jason Bays: and saying, oh yeah, that was our trip. We're really trying to create a guest for life and get them to return visit. That's in many ways more important to us than, again, trying to get, like, the highest yield on that one day that they picked. Like, come back and visit our resort and, um, you know, again, the business side to this is.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:28.000Jason Bays: we're cross-marketing across all of our other offerings here that we have on this campus to say, come and visit us again. And again, to us, that's more important than, you know, the highest yield that we can get to. So the triple ticket's really successful. And I think one last thing I would share.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:46.000Jason Bays: a lot of season passes in the market right now, um, the triple ticket's a great opportunity for people to get a couple of days at Camelback, even if they've committed somewhere else, and particularly, you know, our long season, um, there's plenty of time to use it, um, as well, uh, from the, uh, long season that we established from last year.00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Jason, I think that's a really smart way to look at it as…00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: a… creating a habit rather than pulling as much yield as possible. And a lot of the larger operators.00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: get frustrated with me and the rest of the ski media because they don't understand why we focus on that peak price, right? Because the peak lift ticket this year at Beaver Creek is $392, set to be. Probably almost no one will pay that price, but…00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:28.000Stuart Winchester: What it does is it acts as a, a billboard for the rest of the ski industry and especially so, so Camelback for, for people who don't know when you're driving on I 80 I mean, you see it, it looms right over the highway. It is one of the major interstates in America, especially at night. The thing is lit up.00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: And so, chances are, if people think about skiing, and they think about where to go, they're gonna think about the most obvious one, and that's Camelback, and that's why, for many years, it was that, or Seven Springs was the busiest ski area in Pennsylvania, traditionally. So I think that's a really smart way to look at it, because if people show up that one time, and.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: cost them, you know, $500 for 2 people, they're just not gonna come back, and they're not gonna try Shawnee, or… or Blue Mountain, or Jack Frost, or Elk Mountain, or Montage. So, um, I wanna talk about… Jason, I wanna talk about Lyft.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:16.000Stuart Winchester: And… can you see this trail map? This is an old trail map. I mentioned that I know this, so for those watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, you can see this. So there's been a ton of changes, and I want to break all these down with you. The first I want to talk about is, over the past couple years.00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mark Antony and Cleopatra, these two lifts right here, an old triple and an old double, have been removed. Can you talk about why you took those lifts out of service, and if you plan to replace them with anything, or what you planned, or what the rationale was behind it?00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:49.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, that does predate my time here, that they had reached the end of their, um, uh, ability to operate. Um, and so they have, um, both been, um, sort of partially disassembled. Um, there is unfortunately not.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:36:49.000 --> 00:37:05.000Jason Bays: I, by the way, two of my favorite lifts when I was a ski instructor, because you could get right up and not wait in long lines on the weekends, so absolutely realizing and recognizing the capacity that they brought, but no opportunity for us to.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:23.000Jason Bays: um, reinstate those lifts as presently, um, as presently, uh, uh, sort of, um, situated, um, and, and not, not, not able to, uh, um, not able to, uh, rerun them. It will require a, um, new, uh, chairlift to, um, to ultimately replace.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:37.000Jason Bays: those two lifts. It saddens me to share that, but that is, in fact, what has happened there, and I've been very open with our season pass holders about that messaging and the why behind it.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: So, so in fantasy ski resort world, Jason.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: Would you put a new lift here, and what would you put, if you could?00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:04.000Jason Bays: Yeah, absolutely. Um, same thing. We've, uh, we've made clear, uh, with no time, no official time frame to share, um, but certainly, uh, we've, we've, um, had, uh, preliminary conversations, um, about a fixed grip, um, quad that would, uh, would be able to take the place of both of those lifts, uh, and create that.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.000Jason Bays: original redundancy that those two lifts brought to the resort when they were in operation.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be really nice. So, so, so these are gone and I, I have a, a current trail map now. So, um, and, and it's not completely current. We'll discuss the new trails in a moment, but this is the most current posted on your website. So, uh, we go over, these are the lifts that remain and see, uh, yeah, I, I miscounted in my intro, so sorry about that.00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: So this one is Stevenson, and Stevenson was, uh, it's a high-speed quad, uh, for the listeners, and it… it was a real junker. It was always stop, stop, stop, and, you know, it was… it was really… seemed to be falling apart and have a lot of issues. Now, uh, in 2020…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:51.000Stuart Winchester: 5, this year, or 2024, I believe, Camelback, uh, McCarthy, the GM at the time, sent out a letter saying it was due for a…00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Waltz.00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me see what he said… like, a complete modernization of Stevenson. So, so did that happen? And talk to us about Stevenson, and what kind of shape it's in right now.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:20.000Jason Bays: Yeah, great, um, yes, that was a, uh, look, an amazing, um, project that was completed by, uh, by Dave and team, um, to modernize that lift. Um, it has, essentially, Doppelmayr came in and put in an entire new, uh, minus the, uh, minus the, uh, uh, the terminals and the.00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:35.000Jason Bays: Um, uh, and the structure itself, um, essentially all new components, all new electrical, um, uh, wiring components to it, a lot of the things that had plagued it. Um, and last year, uh, it operated 138 days.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Jason Bays: Uh, which for Pennsylvania, uh, that's pretty darn good. I think we recognize it's a workhorse, um, it's key to accessing some really, um, fantastic terrain for us, um, and that modernization project with Doppel… in, um, partnership with Doppelmeyer that was done in the summer and fall of 2025.00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:08.000Jason Bays: um, was, uh, very, uh, so it's all immediate impact, um, with, uh, Stevenson Reliability this past year, and we expect that to, uh, you know, knock on wood, to, uh, to continue going forward. We essentially, again, have a brand new lift, minus the, uh.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.000Jason Bays: Uh, minus the physical pieces.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:26.000Stuart Winchester: That's a really smart way to do it because they are tremendously expensive, these new lifts. And for folks who are watching or listening, this Stevenson is really important because you walk out of this giant hotel that's right here, that's not on the trail map with 400 and some rooms, and that is how you get up the mountain. Otherwise you got to.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:41.000Stuart Winchester: pull your way over, so when that lift is not running or has problems, it's a real big issue. So, the alternative was, over here, Black Bear 6, uh, you replaced an old high-speed quad that was there, and… and I love this Black Bear 6 lift. It is…00:40:41.000 --> 00:41:01.000Stuart Winchester: Freakin' Ferrari, man. I think the price they gave me was something like $12 million that they spent, or maybe it was $10 to put that in. So that's the alternative, right? If you don't just modernize that current lift, you replace it. So, uh, Black Bear is awesome. I love it. It has bubbles. Is it too much? I mean, I know that KSL Now Peregrine had reasons for.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:16.000Stuart Winchester: for putting it in, but what have you learned from a couple of years of having BlackBerry around, which is, again, probably the nicest lift in the state of Pennsylvania and one of the nicest in the Northeast, but maybe a little heavier than what you need for CamelBak, but I don't know, you tell me.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:41.000Jason Bays: Yeah, you know, you know what I would share to that, um, you know, we, we brought it back for scenic chairlift rides this summer, and I mean, it's a massive hit. The summer, summer guests love, uh, the bubbles, they put them down when it's sunny, they put them down, um, probably gets more use in the summer as a bubble lift than the winter, uh, but look, it's, it's nice to, uh, have on the days where, you know, there's some liquid precipitation out here. It certainly happens in the Poconos.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:58.000Jason Bays: um, and, uh, and, and or, um, uh, you know, other, other weather events, it's, it's, it's a nice to have, um, and it certainly, it gets you up in, you know, a little bit over two minutes. Um, it's a smooth ride, it's a great ride. Um, you are not going to get any complaints from me that we have a, um.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.000Jason Bays: bubble, D-line, six-pack, um, in place, uh, and able to operate as our main workhorse lift. Um, and, uh, I think the six-pack versus the quad was absolutely the right, uh, call. Um…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:27.000Jason Bays: from my experience being here before with the Sullivan Express, um, with the four-seater, the six-seater, just the… the added, uh, ability, uh, there is, uh, is… is well worth it. So, uh, we're happy to have that… happy to have that lift. I… I wouldn't, uh… I wouldn't…00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000Jason Bays: We won't be trading it in at this point. Let's put it that way.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: It is a gorgeous machine, and I have to tell you, I'm that weird person who, if there's a line on one lift.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And no line on the lift next to it. Even if it's a slower lift, I'll take the slower lift, because I just would rather not deal with the hassle of the line. So right here, for those who are watching, is the Bailey Double, and this is an old chair lift. It's an old slow double, it runs almost exactly parallel to Black Bear 6, doesn't land quite as high.00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: on the mountain, but functionally, it does about the same thing for you. So I like Bailey, and I was glad to see that not only did you keep it, and it does run, and that was true even under the previous regime, but you got a new gearbox for it, which is a really big deal for a lift like this in several decades. Also, talk about the work you've done on Bailey, and how you hope to use that lift.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000Stuart Winchester: this year to complement Black Bear.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so, um, Bailey Lift…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:32.000Jason Bays: full disclosure, Bailey Lift, Meadows Lift, Raceway Lift, and our season pass holders are very aware of this. Um, unfortunately, uh, we're not, um…00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:41.000Jason Bays: ready for day one of last year, um, or even close. And so, uh, we had to do a lot of, um…00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:57.000Jason Bays: normal PM maintenance, um, throughout the, um, end of fall and into winter to have all of them operational. Um, what I share to that is, um, we will run, just level set here really quickly, we will run all the lifts that we have on this trail map.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:02.000Jason Bays: Um, and take care of them, maintain them, operate them.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Jason Bays: Staff them, everything that you would do to run the extra capacity, we certainly need it. We'd like more capacity, actually. So that being said, Bailey Lift is critical. We got it back online.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:34.000Jason Bays: End of January, it ran for 2 or 3 weekends, and we had a failed gearbox, um, on it, which is really unfortunate. Um, this off-season, uh, we've replaced the gearbox, we've done a full PM over the course of the summer on it, which is…00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:50.000Jason Bays: the, as you, as everyone knows, the ideal time, uh, to be, um, conducting such work, um, so that it is ready on, uh, day one. Um, it is a critical backup lift. We will run it every weekend.00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:07.000Jason Bays: Um, that we're, you know, in season, I would say in the heart of season, we're gonna run it. Won't be shy to not run it. Um, same thing with the Meadows, same thing with the Glen, same thing with the Raceway, which, um, you know, I know that that was, um, certainly chief among the complaints of.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:22.000Jason Bays: locals and guests who were visiting from out of town alike was Lyft availability, Lyft reliability. That was something that we focused as fast as we could on last year, but we're setting ourselves up this year to be.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:39.000Jason Bays: um, very proactive to that, and recognizing the importance of, of each of, uh, uh, you know, each of these. And look, every once in a while, uh, if the, you always want to have, like, Bailey is critical because it's the only other, if there's Black Bear, without Black Bear, it's the only other thing left, right?00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:55.000Jason Bays: Um, and so, uh, you know, I think the, you know, back in the, when I was here, like, every Lyft ran on the weekends. It was Camelback. Um, it was busy, right? Like, everything was going. That's, that's essentially our, our, our philosophy, um, will continue to be our philosophy going forward.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jason, I'll admit, I didn't come to Camelback last season, so I wasn't able to experience it firsthand. I really wanted to come to your May thing, which I'll talk about, I'll get to in a minute, but I had a shoulder surgery, so I wasn't able to do that. But I wasn't only basing my perceptions of C.00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: on locals' reactions. I had skied there myself in recent years, and the lift line management, I have to say.00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: It was…00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: really frustrating from a skier point of view, when you're waiting for the Stevenson lift, and there's a big line, and every chair is going up with one or two people, and this is not peak COVID or anything else, this is several years later.00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:50.000Stuart Winchester: So, you know, and I had a lot of locals tell me, oh, we walk up Sun Bowl because the lift line is just too chaotic. People come from both sides. No, no, again, that was all before. What's your philosophy of lift line management? How have you tried to tame that? And there's always, it's always going to be a little wild and hard in Pennsylvan.00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but they could definitely have been managed better. Is that something that was important to you, that you focused on?00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:15.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we focused on that. We have a new lift operations manager that was hired in November of 2025, who took the bull by the horns. We developed a supervisor team in fairly short order to that as well, to build out a well-rounded team. And then I would just share that our lift attendants.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Jason Bays: All hired locally within the community. And I think that we were fully staffed in LiftOps this year, which was a big, very big win. It starts there, right? A, the people, and then B, the right people.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000Jason Bays: um, on the, uh, on the bus, um, as a catalyst to drive, uh, lift operations forward. Um, and then absolutely, uh, we focused on, uh, line management, queuing, um, we set new, in some cases, new queues. We had, um, uh, supervisors, in many cases, out.00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:04.000Jason Bays: um, putting up chairs, um, and, um, and managing the lift line. We added, once we got that right, and we felt like we were in a good spot, and we, you know, look, I think, admittedly, a couple technology hiccups here and there, it was not a perfect, uh.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:17.000Jason Bays: we didn't, like, on opening day, it wasn't perfect, but, uh, we improved, it was a big focus for our team, and I think when we talk about fundamental ski operation, um, if we just were a ski area, we would absolutely be focusing on.00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:36.000Jason Bays: lift queuing, but we have to do that, like, we have to execute that every day because we are a ski area, um, and that's core to our business, and so that's important. Um, then we added, once we got queuing, uh, uh, correct, we added surprise and delights. Lift, uh, chocolate chip cookies were massively popular.00:48:36.000 --> 00:49:04.000Jason Bays: We handed out over 15,000 chocolate chip cookies this winter at the Stevenson lift line. And so, you know, then it becomes fun, right? Then it's the hospitality side of the business of how do we engage with our guests now that we have full chairs going up for the most part off of the Stevenson and the Black Bear and the Sun Bowl. So we hired extra associates to do that, to surprise and delight, to help our guests.00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Cool.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:20.000Jason Bays: The one other thing I would just share is Sunbowl is a great example. How many people get down to the Sunbowl and have never ridden a lift before? And so you need that extra human touch to be able to help. It's not even just putting people in groups of four. It's just helping them with like, here's where you go to load the lift. Here's what you do.00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:33.000Jason Bays: Um, I think that that investment in our people to provide that service to our guests is very well worth it, and it's the difference between someone having a bad experience getting on a lift and never coming back.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:43.000Jason Bays: or having a great experience, feeling well cared for, and wanting to try again. Um, and so that, that, that was, um, you know, I think that's a core, um, focus for us.00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, one of the ways that I can tell the resort is being run by a skier, in addition to all the things you just said, and your passion for the minutiae of things like lift lines, which I share, is that you're cutting 3 new trails in a resort that's 60 years old, and I love that. So, talk us through these trails, Jason. I'll do my best to trace them.00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: on the trail map. I don't have the updated trail map, I don't know if you've created it yet, but talk us through these three trails.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:25.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so we're really excited. Look, this, you know, came after, you know, the so many guests, new guests that visited us at Camelback this past season. We said, you know what, let's do something fun and exciting. And like, you know, you think about how.00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:43.000Jason Bays: Um, yeah, I just, you know, if someone said, anyone puts in a new trail, uh, the skier in me wants to drive to that resort, no matter how big or small, and be like, alright, like, let's do it. Um, and our team feels, uh, you know, much of the same way. So, um, that being said, uh, we had a lot of natural snowfall this year, so…00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:59.000Jason Bays: I was acutely paying attention to where people were skiing when we had natural snowfall, where they wanted to go, and then, you know, maybe following those lines, too, and seeing what the fun was about. So, my point to all of that is, we said, let's create some, and I think for Camelback, too.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:15.000Jason Bays: it's very, um, you know, we wanted to create something that was sort of unique. I didn't want to just put in, like, regular trails that, A, we don't have a lot of space for regular trails, and B, um, we really wanted to create sort of unique experience. So, right underneath Black Bear, um, in between Sullivan and John Bailey there.00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:30.000Jason Bays: um, there's a, um, there's a chute, um, where the old Alpine Slide used to go. Basculus goes back into Rocket, uh, but underneath there is some really fun rolling terrain. Like, it's, it's because the mountain, the, uh, Alpine Slide.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:54.000Jason Bays: back in the day did had several dips and curves and so we're going to lean into those dips and curves and create something sort of fun that you can get some you know launch some airtime off of if you want or carve a turn over it but it'll have some some really nice terrain variation in a way that most trails at Camelback don't have and they're coming off of an expert trail there so.00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:06.000Jason Bays: um, gives, uh, you know, anyone skiing Asp, Hump, Rocket, um, or Basilisk would be able to reach that trail, um, and, uh, and be able to, uh, just have a little bit more excitement on the way back down.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.000Jason Bays: Um…00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:20.000Jason Bays: Upper Cleopatra there, if you go to the, uh, where the U is, uh, or where Upper is, we're gonna cut a trail through the woods there that's going to end up on the bottom of Big Pocono.00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:31.000Jason Bays: Um, so it's gonna go down and across. So, um, that… um, and I see where your cursor is. If you go to the… where it says Upper on Upper Cleopatra.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, like, here? Or…00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, upper…00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:54.000Jason Bays: So, Big Pocono, that's Uncle B. Yeah, right there. Yep, we're going through there. Yeah, so that's gonna be, that's a narrow blue square. So, you know, I think one of the things that's fun for us is we're gonna create a blue square there. That used to be a trail back in the 60s and 70s, fun fact, when Walter Foger was designing Camelback.00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: Upper… oh, this one. Okay, so you're cutting through here?00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool. Okay.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:09.000Jason Bays: Um, that being said, um, the… actually, it got filled in with pine trees, so it's gonna be really cool, because there's pine trees on both sides. Um, we made it narrow, so we kept the pine trees, um, and so that's gonna be a really fun, um, sort of narrow… I think about, like, the, um.00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool. It's pretty.00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:26.000Jason Bays: the ending of Jay Peak with some of the blues at the very bottom there by Interstate. We're trying to sort of have that, obviously in a much smaller zone, have that same effect, though, where you're feeling like you're really in the trees, and you've got some nice twists and turns to it. It's not terribly steep.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:44.000Jason Bays: Um, two things on that trail. One is, it takes traffic off of Honeymoon Lane, which is a main boulevard, it pushes it onto the Sphinx, which has much more trail capacity, which is great, um, comfortable carrying capacity, and secondarily, um, on weekends, we're gonna have a hot chocolate, um, hut that people can ski up to.00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:52.000Jason Bays: Um, and get shots of hot chocolate, um, as well, so we're excited to, um, uh, to offer that to our guests. We think that'll be really fun.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: That was awesome.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:17.000Jason Bays: And then the Stevenson, it's going to drop on the cliffhanger side and drop down that lift line and go right down into the Faroe there and follow that lift line. Vermont skiing in a very short array but very much Vermont skiing, that's an intimidating drop. Stevenson for those that may not be familiar has a extremely.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.000Stuart Winchester: And it.00:53:58.000 --> 00:53:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:34.000Jason Bays: extremely tight, um, and high, uh, crest of the lift, because the mountain crests, um, really steeply. Well, we're gonna ski that, um, and, uh, and make snow on it, and, uh, and, and, uh, and allow our guests to, uh, um, and allow skiers to, uh, to, to, to test, um, you know, a more narrow.00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:44.000Jason Bays: um, uh, trail up there that has a really great expansive view ov

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is made in the USA. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CaberfaeOwned by: The Meyer FamilyYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 2 days, blackouts* Freedom Pass: 3 days, no blackouts Base elevation: 1,076 feetSummit elevation: 1,561 feetVertical drop: 485 feetSkiable Acres: 200Average annual snowfall: 120 inchesLift count: 5 (1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog's inventory of Caberfae's lift fleet)The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO; also since Tim and Pete were on one screen, the transcript does not differentiate between them).Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:40.000Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan's Lower Penins.00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I'm always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000Pete Meyer: Good. We're doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we're feeling.00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim's also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that's…00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there's tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000Pete Meyer: It.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I'm gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it's the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn't built yet. Now that's in place and we'll talk about that in a minute and how that's gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we're getting and why you're building it.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000Pete Meyer: I'm going to start with why, because it's kind of an interesting story, you know.00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.000Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000Pete Meyer: Now we're gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:55.000Pete Meyer: we're going to give them a longer run, and the new part we're giving them is actually the easier half. They're already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it's easier, it's wider, it should be fine.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000Pete Meyer: And that's what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Pete Meyer: is…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000Pete Meyer: They didn't really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I'm only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you're coming into the top, and you… you know, you're above…00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000Pete Meyer: They'd get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000Pete Meyer: say, there's no way I'm gonna go down, you know, I'm not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I'm saying, um…00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don't take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Pete Meyer: And so.00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we're just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Pete Meyer: And…00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He's like, you don't understand. I can't get them ready for East Peak on this.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it's like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn't been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that's the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Pete Meyer: why it's a two-year construction, because there's nothing over there. No services. Um, so we've had… we had to…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You're getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000Pete Meyer: uh, that's just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it's gonna show this, you know, it's gonna take the new skier, um.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that's similar to what we have throughout the area.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it's going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it's all built out, we should have 4 or 5.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren't just…00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn't have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it's just a really neat development. So we think that.00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Pete Meyer: You know, even though it's not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it's going to be really popular.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000Stuart Winchester: I've always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I've always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won't die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: here I'm looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you're putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that's the plan. I mean…00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000Stuart Winchester: So you're affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don't know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don't have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that's a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn't have…00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad's done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they've already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that's why we decided on… on…00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: That's fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it's a riblet, which…00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one's a SeaTac. So, I don't know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I've seen a, there's a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000Stuart Winchester: to show Peter's excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I'm sure you've seen them. So, there's a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: they don't seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that's the artery. I mean, you know, more people.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it's the middle. And so it's you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it's really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn't have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don't know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we don't run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it's a redundant lift, and we don't need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it's not running some of the time.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it's, as there's kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what's the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don't know if that's still a possibility. I don't know if they're still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what's the thought on.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you've skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that's why we call it backcountry, because it's a…00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000Pete Meyer: Because it's a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we're not doing the industry any favors. You know, it's just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000Pete Meyer: chair, and then we'll have all green runs that'll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it'll be a really nice.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it's one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn't always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it's funny, I…00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I'm not sure. I know where you're going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we're not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don't know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren't going to lift serve it.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000Stuart Winchester: Got it.00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you'll let me.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let's do it.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000Pete Meyer: We're talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you're looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, so if you're, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who's never skied before.00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000Pete Meyer: Rental.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it's easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000Pete Meyer: And you're 30, you know, you're 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you're right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it's really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I'm sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you're right there, and you have this real easy area.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you're ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we're in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it's going to work out extremely well.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you're a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Pete Meyer: Yeah.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we've talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn't have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here's the road looping around, here's the parking lot.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000Stuart Winchester: And then here's all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet's right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there's a.00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there's two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It's a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it's going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you'll see that word practice area.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000Pete Meyer: It's a great name for a learn to ski area.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here's another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you're taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000Pete Meyer: Oh, that's more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we're actually off to the left. It's all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it'll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It's gonna be really, it's gonna be really nice.00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don't know if that's on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you're looking at, we do own it.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000Pete Meyer: I think that we don't have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don't want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that's, uh, my…00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that's really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn't as good. So…00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: Or did they?00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that's, uh, that's, that's all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let's talk passes now, and I'm.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I'm just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there's no access, and there's also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000Pete Meyer: So we.00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000Pete Meyer: There's a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we've been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000Pete Meyer: We're going to talk about — I'll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it's important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I'm like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he's like in his raspy voice.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it's like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: I'm sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000Pete Meyer: You know what? That's this.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000Pete Meyer: It wasn't, it was December 5th, 2019.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I'll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don't know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don't even know if you had it going then.00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow, that's cool.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn't in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don't know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you're like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I'm like, this pass is awesome, right? It's great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we're in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn't know it was you until I was digging through the data. I'm like, oh, that's.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that's cool.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000Pete Meyer: That's that's so. So anyways, anyways, we'll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I'm not sure about.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000Stuart Winchester: Love that.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn't going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we'll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We're like, well, let's let's try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don't even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we're happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can't fault him.00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it's just, he, he's, he's done a wonderful job with it. You know, he's obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000Pete Meyer: But he's blown it up. He just had a different mission.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that's 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It's great for them, they get a lot of.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we're seeing, and we're watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there's not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that's ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Pete Meyer: And.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000Pete Meyer: doesn't move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn't, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn't have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric's a stand-up guy. He'll let anybody who…00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they'll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that's nice of him to do. Also, for those.00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He'll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it's a couple of really good things that he's doing there, so we're thankful, thankful for that. But, um.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that's reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you've got time.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let's linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there's another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don't want to overstate it. What's the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: The fact that you're no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we've been getting…00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we've been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let's just… let's just be… let's just be independent and not on any… any, uh…00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there's a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They're not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right. That's right.00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: They're at, like, 9,000 feet.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000Pete Meyer: Then we, um…00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren't in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000Pete Meyer: We want to do what's best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we've been hit as much as the negativity that you've seen online for leaving any pass, we've been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: It's.00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000Pete Meyer: I'm gonna use it. I'm gonna take a trip. And then we've known we've gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it's you're by that 3rd day you're waking up and you're like you can't even move your legs for you know we're so so we think it's a nice.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don't have to get in a plane. So it's.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody's going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn't even the, like Pete said, we're, we do like our independence and, and.00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we're going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it's it's.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000Pete Meyer: It's a it's a great benefit for our core customers.00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that's good for skiers, it's good for.00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we'll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that's what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that's an awesome, awesome deal.00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it's been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you're really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000Pete Meyer: No, you're exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We're trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That's the day everybody wants to ski. So if you're going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that's one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it's risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there's, there's a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek's topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: This one's a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I'm friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn't know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he's tough.01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000Pete Meyer: And.01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don't… I don't know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's great. I haven't talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you're doing great. Pete.01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There's so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let's do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven't been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I'll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn't really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there's some lift ticket deals going on.01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: I'll tell you about the deals first, and then I'll, I'll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we're gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I'd sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They're play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They're doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don't know if that's a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don't think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we're recording this on September 17th.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: But if you're listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It's not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I'm pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it's funny ‘cause they didn't even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen's 80th anniversary.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn't announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it's small, but it's still, it's, it's a place you can go. It's high. There's no snow making. It's all natural snow.01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you're on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they're $74 to $94. It's a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it's $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they'll have open? Probably not a lot.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: I think you're seeing some smart reactions from some of the…01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there's still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one's surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it's clear that their direct compe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I still write long-form newsletters. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 16.Transcript updateFollowing up on yesterday's feedback, there are now two transcripts available for each podcast:* Substack's transcript: This transcript is auto-generated when I upload the podcast file to Substack, which is the platform that hosts stormskiing.com. This one is cool because you can click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Click the “transcript” button above to access. * Zoom's transcript: Zoom automatically generates this transcript as I record. It should be more or less identical to Substack's transcript, but with names attached to each quote block. The downside of this transcript is that you can't teleport to that point in the pod by clicking on the text block, as you can with Substack's. Another downside: the timestamps are off, since I typically start recording prior to the start of the podcast. I'll work on cleaning this up.So until the robots get smarter, we're stuck with two different transcripts. Both are auto-generated, and I don't proofread either one, as that would be the fastest way to make sure my quick-turnaround, up-to-date podcast turns into a slow-turnaround, out-of-date one. My hope is that Substack will soon hire or invent or weld from raw iron a robot that's smart enough to know who's speaking when. I'll just keep following the robots around and using their hyper-intelligence until they decide to kill me.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Tuesday, September 15th, 2026, and I am very excited today to bring you a conversation with the General Manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado, Chris Haggerty. Now, I've never featured Monarch either on the long-form pod or on the short-form pod.00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: There's never really a reason behind that, other than this is just kind of when it happened. If you run an area, a ski area anywhere in America, I do want to talk to you. I've just never had the opportunity to feature Monarch before, so we will talk about Monarch in just a little bit here.00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:27.000Stuart Winchester: Part of the reason why we're talking about Monarch is because they were one of two Western Mountains to this year join Snow Operating's Snow Pass. Now, the Snow Pass, if you missed the news, it works a lot like the Indy Pass or the Mountain Collective Pass, where you get two days each.00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:37.000Stuart Winchester: at a set number of ski areas. In this case, it's planned to be 14 ski areas for the 2026-27 ski season. And…00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:45.000Stuart Winchester: That product went on sale last Tuesday. I had Snow Operating CEO Joe Heschen on the podcast to talk through it with us.00:10:45.000 --> 00:11:01.000Stuart Winchester: Couple days later, I got an email from Snow Operating saying, Hey, guess what? Our first round of Snow Operating and Snow Triple Play, which are two different products, and I'll explain the difference in a moment, sold out. So we're taking it off sale. We're putting it back on sale next Monday, September 21st.00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:13.000Stuart Winchester: at 10 a.m. Eastern. It will be $349.99 for Snowpass, and $184.99 for Snow Triple Play. Still a pretty good deal. Those products at full price.00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:24.000Stuart Winchester: the prices that Snow Partners gave me, and they anticipate selling both products through Christmas Eve, December 24th, just like they did last year with the first season of the Triple Play.00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:40.000Stuart Winchester: They, the final prices they anticipate will be 3 99 99 for snow pass and 1 99 99 for snow triple play. So you get a nice little discount, particularly with the snow pass, $50 off if you buy it in the next round. So let's talk a little bit about the snow pass because.00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: When this product debuted.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:53.000Stuart Winchester: I… I've been saying for years, there's 4 national ski passes, right? There's obviously Epic and Icon, and those have some season pass unlimited tiers at certain mountains.00:11:53.000 --> 00:12:08.000Stuart Winchester: And a limited number of days at other partner mountains. And then you have Indian Mountain Collective, which essentially worked the same way, 2 days at each ski area that is on their roster. Uh, Mountain Collective is more expensive, tends to be your bigger, more high-end resorts, Snowbird, Jackson Hole.00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:23.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Sun Peaks up in Canada. And Indy tended to be the lesser-known ski areas, but still some really dynamite stuff there, and a lot more ski areas. Mountain Collective always has around 30, and Indy is more like 250, not counting their cross-country.00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:36.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas. So, I always thought there was probably room for a fifth national pass, but I wasn't sure, and as time went on, and more and more mountains joined multi-mountain passes.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:37.000Stuart Winchester: I…00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.000Stuart Winchester: I thought, okay, maybe there's not room for a fifth national pass. Maybe everyone who's…00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.000Stuart Winchester: who wants to join a pass has, because I know Indy, uh.00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:58.000Stuart Winchester: Now, I'm not saying they don't have standards, but they'll let just about anybody on the pass just to help them get that exposure and that national marketing. But Snow Operating, the outfit that owns Mountain Creek in New Jersey and the indoor big snow ski area in New Jersey, they launched.00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:15.000Stuart Winchester: their Snow Pass, and it's a pretty good roster. Here, I'm gonna share my screen for those of you watching on video, and if you're not watching on video, don't worry, I'm gonna talk through it. So, here's the Snow Triple Play East roster, and here's the Snow Pass roster. Now, the Snow Pass has 14 ski areas on it.00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.000Stuart Winchester: And you get 2 days at each ski area.00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.000Stuart Winchester: The Snow Triple Play has…00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:27.000Stuart Winchester: 23 total ski areas on it, and you get 3 days total.00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: across all 23 ski areas. That's why it's so much less expensive. The most days you can use at any ski area is 2, so you can't buy this as a 3-pack Force A Gore Mountain, alright? So, that's the first important.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:59.000Stuart Winchester: distinction is that Snow Triple Play is a much more limited basket of days. You also don't want to assume that they have the same roster. Just because something's on Snow Pass doesn't mean it's on Snow Triple Play, and vice versa. Snow Triple Play right now has a pretty…00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:15.000Stuart Winchester: Big roster that I wish was on the, uh, Snow Pass, because it has Jiminy Peak in, uh, Massachusetts, and also Cranmore in New Hampshire, which is jointly owned. It has Platykill up in the New York Catskills.00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:30.000Stuart Winchester: It has all these summit ski areas around Quebec. It has Bromont, one of the great eastern townships ski areas. Uh, so that's Snow Triple Play. Snow Triple Play does not have anything in the west. It's all east. It's all east coast, either eastern Canada or eastern New York.00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Snow Pass has… it's a pretty interesting roster, and it's a great roster for a very particular type of skier. Now, it does have two ski areas in the West, uh, Snow King, which has been controversial, I'm gonna set that aside, and Monarch, which we'll talk about in a moment.00:14:45.000 --> 00:15:00.000Stuart Winchester: The core of the Snow Pass, and the reason why it makes sense, is because of the south to north line of ski areas that it offers. So if you buy the Snow Pass, again, goes back on sale for $349.99 next Monday, September 21st.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: You would get two days each at Bel Air, which is in New York's Catskills.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Gore.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: higher up in the Adirondacks, and Whiteface, which are all owned and run and operated by the state, all fantastic ski areas. So it's 2 days at each of those, that alone would be worth $350.00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Then you add in the fact that you get two days at Mountain Creek, which is right there in New Jersey, uh, two days at the indoor snow dome, big snow American dream. Uh, if you have kids, two days at Butternut and two days at Mount Southington in Connecticut. Uh, Butternut is in Massachusetts. They're both day drive distance from New York City.00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:42.000Stuart Winchester: Let them wander around, let them explore. They're both, uh, especially Butternut. It's very up-to-date, very modern lifts, very, very well-run ski area. So…00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: You have a really great little, you know.00:15:46.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: 5, 6, 7 ski areas that really make sense. Now, Ski Martok doesn't really make sense. It's all the way up in the middle of nowhere in the, in the Atlantic provinces in, in Canada. Uh, and, and Pleasant Mountain makes less sense. It's, it's up in Maine and, uh, harder to get to from, from the folks who would likely buy this as.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:13.000Stuart Winchester: But what you have to ask yourself is, okay, the snow pass, that's a pretty good deal, right? It's $349.99 for 2 days each of 14 mountains. Then you look at Indy.00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.000Stuart Winchester: And Indy Pass is 254.00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:34.000Stuart Winchester: uh, alpine ski areas, and it just went off sale for $429 for the base pass. So, it would be 2 days each at all of these, and the… the plus pass, the ND plus pass, was $469. It had no blackouts. Now, the other thing to know about Snow Triple Play.00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:50.000Stuart Winchester: and snow passes, there are a lot of blackouts, okay? So, a lot of these are holidays, you probably expect that. Uh, you know, here I see Big Snow, Oak Mountain, Plattekill, a lot of holiday blackouts, Butternut holiday blackouts, Gore, uh, Bel Air. Bel Air, though, you want to stop.00:16:50.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Bel Air is blacked out every Saturday and Sunday. That's a big deal, because when do you probably want to go to Bel Air if you're someone skiing around with your little kids? Probably on a Saturday or Sunday. So, you want to be really careful and really look at these, uh, these blackout dates before you pull the trigger.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: on the snow pass. So…00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Stuart Winchester: So if you have a snow pass, I I'm calling it.00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: A national pass, kind of, uh…00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: out of anticipation, right? It's more of a, I think they'll get there, sort of designation, because right now.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: it's not really a national pass, right? You have one small skier in Wyoming, one small skier in Colorado. Is someone who lives in New York's metro really going to travel to Colorado just to ski that because they have a snow pass, right? Because it's not cheap to get up to Colorado.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:56.000Stuart Winchester: And there's a lot of much bigger mountains out there. So… so I think that Snow Pass, much like Indy did when it started in 2019, will grow into a national… a true national pass. Uh, for now, just based on the reputation of the operators, uh, the fact that I think that they will be able to grow this thing, the fact that I…00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:11.000Stuart Winchester: know their relationships with folks all around the country, and how much folks like working with them, I am assuming that this pass will grow up, and if it does, Monarch will be the OG Western partner. So, let's talk more about Monarch now, and I'm gonna bring.00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: Chris Haggerty in.00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: And we will, uh… Chris, how you doing?00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000Chris Haggerty: I'm doing well today, Stuart. How are you?00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: I'm doing great. All right, you passed the sound check, so I'm going to give you an intro here. Joining us now is the general manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado. Monarch has six chairlifts serving 1,017 acres of terrain, including the 377-acre no-name expansion that opened last winter.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:44.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch's 10,727-foot base elevation is the third highest in American skiing.00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Monarch in 2024, he spent 21 years as general manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey. Chris Haggerty is my guest. Chris, welcome to The Storm. Awesome to connect with you. I've really been wanting to spotlight Monarch for a long time now, and I'm so hyped we get to.00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:10.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah. Thanks for having me, and I'm excited to be here and chat Monarch. It's a special place, so excited to share some discussion about it.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: So, the New Jersey to Colorado pipeline is maybe not necessarily a well-trod one, although there are a surprising amount of IntraWest vets working in the ski industry because of its relationship with IntraWest, but talk to us about…00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:40.000Stuart Winchester: Getting to Monarch, and you were taking over for Randy Stroud, super experienced guy, he was retiring, uh, he'd been there 23 years, a decade as GM, and he stayed on, I believe, for, for a year. So, talk to us about going from New Jersey, where they have a lot of snowmaking, because they have to.00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.000Chris Haggerty: Mmhm.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:47.000Stuart Winchester: to Monarch, where they have no snowmaking, and just what that adjustment period was like, and how you settled into the role.00:19:48.000 --> 00:20:07.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, just a quick story is that, you know, as you mentioned, I was at Mountain Creek for a long time, and, you know, really where I found my love for the ski industry, and after college, I had taken a trip out to Colorado and got my first taste of, like.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.000Chris Haggerty: the Rockies, right? So it's always been something in the back of my mind. Um…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:28.000Chris Haggerty: And I ended up stumbling upon Monarch. I hadn't been to Monarch before, and I was like, oh, this place looks pretty cool. It definitely screamed the ski independent. I definitely wanted to.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:50.000Chris Haggerty: you know, if I was going to relocate, wanted to find an area where the resort and the local community both had that kind of just feeling of community and stuff. So a monarch was it. And I was blessed to step in after Randy Stroud, and we shared a season together. So I got to learn a lot of institutional knowledge from him.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, but also bring my viewpoints coming from New Jersey in an area where, you know, we're not…00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:15.000Chris Haggerty: maybe blessed with natural snow. Um, so last year was, like, a challenging winter, and, um, I was ready for it, because I was like, man, 120 inches, like, if you gave me that in New Jersey, we'd be celebrating for years, right? So, um, you know, just kind of a unique perspective, but…00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.000Chris Haggerty: um, definitely happy to be here, and just pumped to keep the Monarch kind of spirit going forward.00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: So you've been there for a couple years, one full year as GM, and one of the… there's been tons of stuff coming out of Monarch, it's amazing for a small ski area, which is why I wanted to get you on. So you recently joined the Snow Pass, one of two Western partners to join the Snow Pass, which gives pass holders.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:54.000Stuart Winchester: Two days at Monarch. I don't think there's blackouts on that, but correct me if I'm wrong now. Now, Multimon Pass has been around for years and almost everybody in Colorado is on either Epic or Icon if they're large and if they're small, a lot of them have joined Indy. So the option has been there for years.00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:00.000Stuart Winchester: Why was it finally time for Monarch to join a multi-mountain pass, and why the snow pass?00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:15.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, two parts there. I think on the, I mentioned it before, we're ski independent as our tagline, right? Part of independence is like the definition is freedom.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.000Chris Haggerty: Right? Like, you make your own choices. You do what you wanna do.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:31.000Chris Haggerty: we've been approached in the past for IndyPass, and, you know, it wasn't right for us because it kind of went against our spirit of being independent. Like, we want to be able to work with who we…00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:43.000Chris Haggerty: who we choose at any given moment, um, and that just isn't something that, um, is available through the Unipass, so… so we've passed on that. Um, we were even approached about it this year. Um…00:22:43.000 --> 00:23:00.000Chris Haggerty: As far as Snowpass goes, they respect that. They're all about, hey, you want to work with XYZ Pass, go for it. And obviously, I've spent some time working with the Snow Partners group.00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000Chris Haggerty: You know, from my perspective, that group is all about, um…00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:17.000Chris Haggerty: you know, rising tides lifts all boats, right? And, um, you know, for me personally, they've opened doors for me, right? And helped me throughout growing in my career, so, um…00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.000Chris Haggerty: We're down.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to share, because you've sort of created your own… I'm sharing my screen now, if you can see that, and hopefully the folks watching can as well, and if you're listening, I'll talk through it. So, Monarch has…00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:46.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:07.000Stuart Winchester: not joined a pass, necessarily, but you've kind of built your own pass, and what I have on the screen right now is a list of Monarch's reciprocals, and it's a pretty amazing pass all in and of itself, so if you buy a Monarch season pass, which I believe now is, what, $6.59, less if you renew.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:24.000Stuart Winchester: It comes with a lot of reciprocal days. Some of the big ones that people probably are really attracted to, 3 days at A-Basin, 3 days at Copper. Now there's blackouts on that, but still, it's freaking Copper Mountain. Uh, 3 days at Purgatory. And then, uh, 3 days each at all of the Mountain Capital Partners-owned skiers, which Purgatory.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.000Chris Haggerty: I'll do that.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Also, Arizona Snowball. And there's a bunch more. I don't want to list them all, given our time constraints here today. But talk about this reciprocal program, because essentially, you're saying you're going to give pass holders of all these mountains.00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.000Chris Haggerty: Sure.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: free visits to Monarch in exchange for your pass holders getting free visits there, so…00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.000Chris Haggerty: Oh.00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:52.000Stuart Winchester: whatever you did or didn't like about IndyPass, it does pay per visit, so what was attractive about.00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.000Chris Haggerty: Just a second.00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: this, and why did it make sense to do these free visit exchanges with other ski areas?00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:15.000Chris Haggerty: We look at it as other skiers are not our competition, right? There's 350 million people roughly in the United States. Less than 5% actually ski or snowboard, right? So there's a lot of people out there that just need to be introduced into the sport.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.000Chris Haggerty: Um…00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:23.000Chris Haggerty: rather than trying to fight for visits between resorts. So… so one of the things is just…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:39.000Chris Haggerty: How do we get more people skiing and snowboarding, which is obviously a huge conversation you could talk about forever. But with this one, it's just like, hey, these are other resorts that are interested in also giving their pass holders as well as ours.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:10.000Chris Haggerty: allow our pass holders to try each out while still knowing that, like most people that have a copper pass, they're not migrating to Monarch because they came here for two days.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:28.000Chris Haggerty: they're bought a Copper Pass for a reason, they love that, and they're like, yeah, if I could get two days over at Monarch, cool. Same thing with our Monarch guests, like, they… they… they love Monarch, they want most of their days to be here, and if we could break it up for them, um, you know, a couple times a year, or they could go to A-Basin and Copper, then.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:37.000Chris Haggerty: That adds a lot of value to them and gives them that flexibility to move around and go where it works for them.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:52.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Monarch is small by Colorado standards, but it always surprised me to see that it actually does have a pseudo national following. And I get emails from people all over the country that say they buy the Monarch Pass because it gives them all those reciprocals and they come out and they like to support the small ski area.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get your take on something here, Chris. I'm going to share my screen again, and I want to share a chart that I made.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so, so this is a chart of Monarch's skier visits since 1997, up to 2024 to 25, right? And I've compiled these from all kinds of different places, and I have a little bit of a gap there. But as you, as you see right here, they've been going steadily up, right?00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, so you were averaging below $200,000 for most of the, of the 2010s, you know, much lower some years, and now you're pretty steadily adding, averaging over $200,000. Now, last year, I don't have your numbers, I'm, I'm sure that they were, uh, pretty bad, but.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:33.000Stuart Winchester: You know, in relation to what your past numbers were.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.000Stuart Winchester: So here's my question.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:48.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch was supposed to be one of the ski areas that got squeezed out by Epic, squeezed out by Icon. That was one of the big worries. Uh, independent ski areas can't compete. We're seeing the opposite, because I've put some things on this timeline.00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:04.000Stuart Winchester: So, for example, 2007, IntraWest buys Steamboat. Uh, 2008, the Epic Pass launches. 2009, Powder buys Copper. Uh, the Mountain Collective launched in 2012. Uh, Mountain Capital Partners bought Purgatory in 2015. Powder bought Eldora the following year.00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Uh In 2017, Alterra combined Steamboat and Winter Park in 2018, they launched the icon pass. Uh And then we had the 20% epic price cut in 2022. So all these things you think, ok, Vale and Alterra putting their mountains on sale. These are big world famous mountains, Steamboat Vale Mountain.00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch must be getting crushed. No, it's not. Why?00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:45.000Chris Haggerty: I think it's a couple of reasons. Number one is we've just stayed true to who we are. And as the population has grown in the front range, like since 2010, Denver and Colorado Springs have grown by about 20%.00:28:45.000 --> 00:29:00.000Chris Haggerty: Right? So there's just more people, um, that are finding Monarch, and they're, they're like, wow, we like this, this is what we want. You know, you also throw in the fact that, um, I-70, for those in Colorado, are pretty familiar with, like, the traffic that is.00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Chris Haggerty: created there on the weekends and it's not for everybody. So thankfully the drive to Monarch currently is a pretty attractive one, a lot less traffic. And I give credit to our ownership group, our current ownership group. They bought the resort in.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Chris Haggerty: 2002. And part of it was, you know, a little bit of a passion project. Right? Like, they had come here and just really liked the vibe at Monarch and and wanted to protect that. And what they've been able to do is, number one, protect it.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:53.000Chris Haggerty: Um, by not selling, you know, to, to one of the larger players, um, to just investing into our, our core, um, like deferred maintenance projects and those types of things, and then being really committed to the no name project, which we talked about and, and making sure timing was right on that and.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:11.000Chris Haggerty: Um, that we were a healthy company before we jumped into that, so we didn't need a lifeline from, you know, someone else. So, um, there's kind of a lot of pieces that go into it. Um, and it's also worth noting that, like, our pass holders, like, and I think this goes to the growth, like, once people find us.00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:25.000Chris Haggerty: Um, our pass holder, uh, renewal rate is about 85% every year. Um, and the industry standard, depending on where you, you know, who you ask, it's somewhere between, like, 55% and 62%.00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:42.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and, and most of the 15% that we lose as we've dug into it is because of, uh, we have a lot of season pass holders from Fort Carson, um, military base outside of Colorado Springs, and they've just moved out of the area, right? So, um, I think our growth is partly due to, like.00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.000Chris Haggerty: Once people come here and they discover it and they love it and they just keep coming back and we're just building upon that.00:30:49.000 --> 00:31:06.000Stuart Winchester: So you have owners that are willing to invest and that's really important. And Randy Stroud, I interviewed him, not on the podcast, but just for an article a couple of years ago. And he told me, and I'm not sure if this ended up being true, but their intention was to pay for the entire no name expansion in cash, including a brand new SkyTrak.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:22.000Stuart Winchester: triple chair, or Doppelmayr, I can't remember what it was offhand, but regardless, it spoke to a very stable operation. Now, meanwhile, you still have some pretty old lifts, some pretty old infrastructure on the front side of the mountain, and recently Monarch's.00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:36.000Stuart Winchester: Master Development Plan was accepted by the U.S. Forest Service, which, for the listeners, just means that they said, okay, we'll let you consider doing these things on a project-by-project basis in the future. I have a lot of questions about the Master Plan, but first.00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to focus on one that you called out, that Monarch Mountain called out in its first blog post announcing acceptance of the Master Plan, and it was about snowmaking. And Dan Torsell, the longtime GM of Ski Cooper, told me a long time ago when he came on this pod that.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:04.000Stuart Winchester: that Ski Cooper and Monarch were the only big lift-surf ski areas in Colorado that don't have snowmaking. I think Silverton is too, but that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. So, uh, you have it in your master development plan.00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: to a sort of rudimentary snowmaking system that would allow you to open early. But, this is a quote from your blog, quote, Before anyone panics when they read about snowmaking, let me assure you that Monarch is committed to remaining 100% all natural.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Snowmaking has been a part of our previous MDPs, Master Development Plan, and we have chosen not to implement it as we truly believe that natural snow provides the best skiing experience. This continues to be the case as snowmaking is in the plan to cover all bases, but we will not implement anything unless Mother Nature gives us no other choice.00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.000Stuart Winchester: Care to expand upon that at all?00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:53.000Chris Haggerty: Definitely. And yeah, and we are committed to that. And I actually, last summer, I spoke in front of some of the locals and pass holders, and when I let them know that we were committed to.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or elaborate.00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:09.000Chris Haggerty: 100% all natural. That was the loudest cheer we got all day. So, like, that's what our, that's what our guests want. That's what we want. Um, as far that, you know, snowmaking has come a long way, and, and it is a necessity for a bunch of resorts.00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:19.000Chris Haggerty: Um, we're not at that point, um, and we're gonna push as far as we can, um, leaning into, like, snow farming and everything else before we ever, um.00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:35.000Chris Haggerty: have snow… have snowmaking. But, you know, in the Master Development Plan, it's in there because, like, part of putting things into that document is because it's a conceptual document. It's, like, it's designed to be a 15-year document. If it's not in there.00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:51.000Chris Haggerty: The Forest Service really doesn't even consider something. So if 15 years from now we're like, we need to put snowmaking in and it's not in there, we'd have some challenges. I will say our base elevation being basically 10,800 feet.00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:02.000Chris Haggerty: has helped us out, right? Like, as weather patterns has changed, and temperatures have rised, and winters are, you know, different every year, um…00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:13.000Chris Haggerty: we've been pretty lucky because of that base elevation, where we're… we are seeing snow, where other resorts are seeing some of that other precipitation falling, right? So, um…00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:30.000Chris Haggerty: you know, and then I mentioned the snow farming, like, we're… we're gonna do everything we can, like, on that side of things, right? And that's all the way from, like, fences strategically placed throughout the mountain, whether they're permanent or temporary, to catch the snow when the winds are coming from whatever direction.00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:47.000Chris Haggerty: And we do early season, we take the snow in the parking lots and we plow it all up and get it into one of the corners and then our groomers take it from there and start to build our base in the base area. So we have some different techniques to try to insulate us as much as possible.00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:53.000Chris Haggerty: And we're going to keep going that way as long as Mother Nature allows us to.00:34:53.000 --> 00:35:09.000Stuart Winchester: So snowmaking, it sounds like, is Monarch's emergency parachute. Meanwhile, there are a lot of big chairlift upgrades outlined on the master development plan. So Monarch has had substantially the same footprint for decades until last season's snowmaking upgrade.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:24.000Stuart Winchester: And like I said before, more and more skier visits, and you were still running, with the exception of the 1999 Pioneer lift, the quad that was put in, with a lot of older double chairs. So Breezeway is a 1968 hall, Garfield is a 1969 hall, Panorama is a 1980 hall.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:40.000Stuart Winchester: Tumbling as a 1981 hall. Those are all doubles. Now they've all gotten new drive terminals. So I understand they're, they're more modern in their actual functioning than, than in their look. However, the capacity is probably not a whole lot more than maybe it would have been. The master development plan proposes.00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Replacing all of these with.00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:54.000Stuart Winchester: is advanced of a lift as a high-speed quad. Now, I realize you wanna… maybe the same reason as somebody… you say high-speed quad because you can always take it down, easier to go down than up, but talk us through…00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:05.000Stuart Winchester: your lift upgrade plan, and whether you think that high speed would be good for Monarch, or if you think that maybe fixed grip is the way you want to stay.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, fixed script is, you know.00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:24.000Chris Haggerty: Well, let me back up. A lot of that is in there because it's got to be in there if we choose to do that. And with no name opening, there's a lot of unknowns as far as, like, how is that going to change skier traffic around the mountain, right?00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:41.000Chris Haggerty: One of the things we worked with the SE group, so they're, you know, a company that helps ski areas, right, with all sorts of development projects, big and small. And one of the things that they do is they do this density analysis, right? And it's a complicated, you know.00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:57.000Chris Haggerty: Analysis that takes on a lot of different data, but basically it's like they look at your uphill capacity based on the speed of the lift, the size of the lift, the length of the trip up, the time, and then what terrain it accesses from that lift.00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:14.000Chris Haggerty: And, like, an optimal score where, like, you have, like, perfect harmony from uphill and downhill is, like, a hundred percent. If you're below that, you're actually putting fewer people up the hill, that the downhill terrain can handle.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:34.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, in our current state, sits at a 56%. So basically, like, when you ski the runs at Monarch, even on our busiest day, because of the capacity that we have at our lifts, like, you have, like, semi-private runs, right? If we were to do all of our lift upgrades in the 2025 MDP.00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:49.000Chris Haggerty: we would actually get to an 84% density analysis. So even still, you wouldn't feel overcrowded on the runs. So knowing that, we're like, wow, well, we don't need to right away push for any kind of high speed lifts.00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and in fact, again, things that our guests like about them is twofold. Number one, it's like…00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:11.000Chris Haggerty: that slow metering from a fixed grip lift just adds, like, this extra time, right? Like, part of why we ski and snowboard is because we like to just disconnect, right, from reality for a little while and, like, be out in nature and, like.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:21.000Chris Haggerty: you know, our guests like taking a step back and slowing things down here, and it feels like things are just moving a little slower. And second, one thing that we feel is like a…00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:36.000Chris Haggerty: a strong differentiator for us is, um, having a fixed grip lift. Our lift operators have to be at, like, the load point, and, um, you know, bumping the chairs and helping our guests on, and.00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000Chris Haggerty: It's this, like, human interaction piece that, like.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:56.000Chris Haggerty: You don't get everywhere else, especially with some of the newer lifts where, you know, it's everything's so automated, um, which has its value, but for us, again, with who Monarch is and taking that step back in time a little bit like that, that face-to-face interaction.00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:14.000Chris Haggerty: like, so many of our reviews are constantly calling out our lift operators, like, oh, yeah, I remember so-and-so, like, he's awesome, he helped me on, or he just said hello, or he remembered what kind of skis I'm wearing, or told me about this secret powder stash, which… another benefit of a slower uphill capacity is, like.00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:23.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, even though it's smaller in size, doesn't get tracked out. Like, you get powder turns at the end of the day on a powder day.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: So the, I'm gonna share my screen to, to talk about this next bit. So those are the lift upgrades that you're proposing. There's also two, and I'm, I, so for those watching.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: On YouTube or stormskiing.com, I have the master development plan, conceptual plan up. There's also two infill lifts. Okay, so there would be this planned NNB lift, which is a redundant lift in the No Name Basin expansion. This is the new lift that opened last year. And then there's this…00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Stuart Winchester: Plan, divide, express. So, again, it's two more lifts on the same footprint. And I didn't see in the master plan, maybe I missed it, that you do have all this cat skiing terrain over here, so…00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.000Stuart Winchester: So, talk us through the logic of putting in more lists to serve the same amount of terrain, and if you've considered.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: moving lift surf skiing into the cat skiing, as Targi did with its peaked mountain expansion a couple of years ago.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:37.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, so no name is actually was a part of our cat skiing terrain. So we did take a little bit of that. That redundant lift out there is just because we'll see what happens, how many people just access the terrain and no name. And if we ever need a second lift there, then.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:55.000Chris Haggerty: um, we'll consider it. As far as further into cat skiing terrain, um, you know, our current MDP outlines our next 15 years, so we're not looking to push any further into that. Um, we also have, um, the Mirkwood terrain, which is a little bit of a hike-to terrain.00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:04.000Chris Haggerty: Um, between, like, the front side and no name, and we get… that's… that's the area we most commonly get asked about a lift, and uh…00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.000Chris Haggerty: I will tell you from my, uh, initial conversations with owners, it's… it's not a, um…00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:27.000Chris Haggerty: the answer isn't no, we're not putting a lift there, it's a expletive no, we're not putting a lift there. Um, we take pride in having, like, being a small mountain, but still offering, like, all these other things, right? Which one being hike to terrain, um, which is pretty cool for…00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.000Chris Haggerty: a small mountain like this. And then that, um…00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:41.000Chris Haggerty: the Divide Express, right, that would get us all the way from the base area to the summit on the front side. Um, that… that is one that we've, you know, had some…00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:55.000Chris Haggerty: serious discussions about, and, um, you know, it probably… number one, it would just, you know, allow guests to not have to take two lifts to get to the… to the summit on the front side. Um, but also, if we…00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:06.000Chris Haggerty: explore, um, summer operations in the future. You know, having a high-speed, you know, detachable lift gives you more flexibility to do that.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:13.000Chris Haggerty: So that kind of, you know, would add into that if we get to that point.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:24.000Stuart Winchester: So let me ask a stupid question, because that's what I'm here for. So Garfield Lyft, as I said, was built in the 60s. Pioneer Lyft came along in 1999. So I would have thought, okay, they cross over each other.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: Because they, they retroactively built Pioneer and didn't realize it. Uh, I would have thought, hey, the master plan is an opportunity to straighten those out so they don't have to cross over each other. Maybe I'm overthinking it and it's not that complicated, but, but talk about this interesting crisscross pattern you have here and, and why that's where Garfield and Pioneer are slated.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: to continue to exist, even if you were to upgrade their lifts.00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:05.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I have the best answer. We do have a proposal to shift the base of the bottom terminal of Pioneer uphill a little bit, just because the terrain is a little more desirable there. And obviously, if we needed to add the Divide Express, we need to open that area up.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.000Chris Haggerty: um…00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:21.000Chris Haggerty: but other than that, right, we just kind of… we like the terrain that they serve right now, we don't really have a better spot, so the lifts crisscrossing wasn't like a, oh man, we need to change this. It wasn't something that we were focused on solving, um, in a way.00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.000Chris Haggerty: I think it's kind of a little cool, I guess.00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: I do like criss-crossing lifts, so I'm glad we're doing this one a video, because every time I bring this up, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Uh, Monarch skier visits have gone up and up, as we said. However, as they've gone up and up, there's still nowhere to stay on the mountain. There never has been. Uh.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:51.000Stuart Winchester: a philosophical choice? Is that just a practical matter of, hey, the Forest Service owns the land at the base? Is it both? Talk us through why there's nowhere to stay at Monarch as a drive ski area only.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, there's a couple of reasons.00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:02.000Chris Haggerty: And, you know, one of them, again, I'll say our pass holders and our guests, like…00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Chris Haggerty: are pretty vocal about not wanting that, right? Like that's what separates Monarch. We're not that resort that has the big base village. And again, that's not to knock those resorts. I think that that's, you know, I've gone to those resorts as a guest. I think it's awesome.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:38.000Chris Haggerty: I think another side of it for us is we're really focused on our community, right? We're a small mountain ski area and there's a small mountain community 15 miles from where we are that has a really cool, the town of Salida has a really cool downtown, a main street.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:52.000Chris Haggerty: Um, with a ton of restaurants, a ton of mom-and-pop-owned shops, right? And, um, you know, we're our largest, uh, driver for winter visits, and, and, you know, um…00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:01.000Chris Haggerty: in the wintertime, and we want to make sure we embrace that community. If we moved a village up onto the mountain, like.00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:16.000Chris Haggerty: Salida is going to suffer. All those guests now are going to stay in the lodging up at Monarch versus in town. And we want to be good community partners and be like, no, here, you guys should be the ones to have lodging. And we live.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:35.000Chris Haggerty: all of us live in the community as well, and we want to see those restaurants, you know, stay active all year round, the mom-and-pop shops, like, you know, thrive. So part of it is just, like, wanting to be a part of something bigger, right, in that larger community, rather than.00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.000Chris Haggerty: moving everything up to… to Monarch.00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: So if Snowpass skiers do decide to come out and visit Monarch, they'll stay in Salida, most likely, and drive up that day. So leave us with this, Chris, because Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners.00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:58.000Stuart Winchester: Said we get so caught up on stats, but stats aren't aren't always the thing and and.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: when you look statistically at Monarch, it's 1,100 vertical feet.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: Lift serve drop. That's 25th in Colorado. Uh, 1017 acres that ranks 17th in Colorado is bigger than Aspen Mountain. I'll point, I'll point out, uh, it's 308 inch average annual snowfall is good, but it's, it's good for ninth best. It has the third highest base, as I said, but the 12th highest summ.00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:28.000Stuart Winchester: It has those older lifts in a state that has 120 high-speed lifts, and there's nowhere to stay on the mountain, so…00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.000Stuart Winchester: I'm just stating those facts, right? So what's your pitch to someone to come.00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: use that snow pass, and try out Monarch.00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, the big one is to start with, we're 100% natural, right?00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:59.000Chris Haggerty: you want natural snow, it is a definitely a different feel, even as good as snowmaking is these days, like, come check it out. And this, and the second part is, um, the people that are at Monarch are a unique group, right? Like, we're, we're.00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:18.000Chris Haggerty: past the characters, whether you work here or you're a guest here. And, um, we're looking out for each other, right? Like, it's not, um, it's not judgmental, like, no matter what you show up wearing or what your ability is, like, we just want everyone here to have a fun day on the mountain.00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:37.000Chris Haggerty: whether you're the extreme person out in the cat skiing terrain, hiking Mirkwood, the Never Ever, or the SnowTuber, which I love SnowTubers, you know, I think that's who we all are at our core. Um, you know, it's just… it's just a cool vibe that you gotta just come check it out, and our track record's saying that.00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.000Chris Haggerty: People love it once they find it. So give it a shot.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:51.000Stuart Winchester: I'm always telling my readers that these old lifts, these hauls, these riblets, they're not gonna be around for a whole lot longer, right? There's still hundreds in operation, but they don't last forever.00:47:51.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: And the best thing you can do to memorialize them, you can't really preserve them forever because they're functional machines, right? But go ride them. And right now, Monarch, along with Lost Trail, is probably the best place in the West to go and ride all Old Hall Liftley. And I understand, again, they've been updated.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:23.000Stuart Winchester: But the aesthetic is similar. So, alright, Chris, look, I gotta take my own advice and get out there and ride those hauls with you this winter. It was really great to talk to you. I really appreciate you coming on. I can't wait to catch up and hopefully make some turns together this winter.00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, thanks a lot for the time and look forward to seeing you out here at Monarch.00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.000Stuart Winchester: All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks so much, Chris.00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you. Bye.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Chris Haggerty, the General Manager of Monarch Mountain. That was really fun, I'm really glad that he came on. Uh, Randy Stroud, just to be clear, the former GM, it's not that he ever didn't want to come on the podcast, it's just that.00:48:47.000 --> 00:49:00.000Stuart Winchester: I covered Monarch in a different way for the story about the expansion. So he was very good to the storm as well. I do want to tell you that today's podcast is brought to you by Profile Search International.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:08.000Stuart Winchester: If you want to find a great leader for your mountain team, I want to introduce you to the pros at Profile Search International.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and they are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:31.000Stuart Winchester: ProfileSearch has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team, which sometimes you don't even know that you need in this era of online everything and big data. You can reach Profile Search.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:59.000Stuart Winchester: Directly at ProfileSearch.com, where you will find their email or phone number. You can also send me a note. I will be happy to connect you directly with this expert team. My email address is skiing at substack.com. Alright, we are going to wrap up today.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:05.000Stuart Winchester: With some reader reaction to yesterday's podcast on…00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:22.000Stuart Winchester: with Midwest skiers, Matt Zabranski, and there wasn't a lot of feedback. I think, number one, because the Midwest doesn't get as much feedback in general, but also because I published this one pretty late, I think I put it out at 8 or 9 at night, and so folks may just have not had a chance.00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.000Stuart Winchester: really process it yet. So…00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000Stuart Winchester: Nell says…00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Midwest Skiers, meaning MidwestSkiers.com, Matthew Zbrensky's site, is a regional treasure. The ride-throughs are so thorough, and what Nell means by that is.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:52.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Midwest Skiers puts up on their YouTube channel a, hey, look, here's the trail map at, say, Trollhagen, Wisconsin. Here's all 32 trails, whatever it is.00:50:52.000 --> 00:51:03.000Stuart Winchester: and then it rides the reach for the GoPro, and tells you about them, and gives you a really specific breakdown, uh, with some great graphs. So the production quality is really, really good. So, I second that now. Really good.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: breakdowns of the ski areas from Midwest Skiers. Eric Morris says, great Midwest content, it'd be great to talk to the Dean of Southern Skiing, Randy Johnson, who wrote Southern Snow, the new guide to winter sports.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:31.000Stuart Winchester: Couldn't agree more, Eric. If you know him, I would love an introduction. I am not acquainted with Mr. Randy Johnson, but I would love to meet him, as the South has certainly been an undercovered region from my point of view, and not on purpose, just because there's…00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:44.000Stuart Winchester: a little different culturally than the rest of the United States from a ski point of view, and I have not sunk as far of roots in there as I would like to, especially since I'm not too far from those ski areas. There was also…00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: We're not getting as much action on the chat, but here's one.00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: question on the chat, and this is not to do with the podcast from yesterday, but I want to talk about it a little. What will it take for Vail Resorts to turn around? That's from Saurabh Jain.00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:06.000Stuart Winchester: And commenter Slappy said, redefine what success looks like and suspend the dividend and stock buyback. Of course, those last two may be non-negotiable.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:24.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not going to get out of my lane and talk too much about dividends and stock buybacks, though I do like stocks and follow that world nominally. It's certainly nothing that I'm an expert to speak on. What Vail needs to do to turn around, I think, is very simple, and I've said this many, many times.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.000Stuart Winchester: And I've written about it.00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: many times, and we've talked about it on the podcast many times, is they need to treat every single ski resort like it's Vail Mountain, and every single guest like they're the President of the United States. They…00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: They need to make sure that.00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: the experience of a lifetime ethos is transferred to any Skiera, whether it's Beaver Creek.00:52:48.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: or it's Mad River, Ohio. And that has not always seemed to be the case since Vail Resorts purchased Peak Resorts in 2019 and sort of doubled the size of its owned resort portfolio within a year's span. Now.00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:08.000Stuart Winchester: Certainly, Vail has recently recommitted to.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:11.000Stuart Winchester: To that sort of quality, and we'll see how that plays out.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: I think…00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe a little more shuffling with the Epic Pass, uh, maybe a higher-priced.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:22.000Stuart Winchester: Full pass to to.00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:37.000Stuart Winchester: help traffic some of the more popular ski areas, and maybe some more options. They do a really good job, actually, with the Epic Regionals, with the Tahoe Local, the Northeast Local, and the Summit County Local. So, I think Vail's done a nice job with that. And I think…00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:45.000Stuart Winchester: From my experience, Vail executives, and I've hosted many of them on this podcast. They're very receptive to criticism.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and they are…00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: Willing to listen and change and evolve. I'm not sure.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:57.000Stuart Winchester: If that always comes through.00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Outside of direct lines of questioning, if that makes sense. So, so the, the owning of mistakes and saying, okay, you know what?00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:19.000Stuart Winchester: we messed up because Paley Peaks was only open 25 days a year in 2021, or whatever it was. There was a year when a lot of its Midwest ski areas were extremely restricted, or the COVID restrictions and everyone else, but the local ski area operators there.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: we're out competing them. Uh, you know, when Vail first bought Wilmot, Wisconsin.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: In 2016, there…00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:38.000Stuart Winchester: their… or maybe that was 2012. They bought Afton Alps, Wilmot, and Mount Brighton in some order, two of them in 2012 and one in 2016. Anyway, there was a great article I read that said.00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:49.000Stuart Winchester: what Wilmot skiers can expect, and Wilmot's a small ski area outside of, well, it's broad, it has a lot of lifts, outside of Wisconsin and Chicago, uh, Milwaukee and Chicago.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: And what they said was, we're gonna bring Western standards to the Midwest, right? And that was very out front. Dale spokespeople were saying that.00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:11.000Stuart Winchester: You never hear them say that anymore, and it's not clear that that is the standard, and I had a very nice time at Wilmot when I went two years ago, and super friendly staff, and all the lifts were running, even though clearly they didn't need to be, because it was a Monday, and hardly anyone was there, so I'm certain they were.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:19.000Stuart Winchester: losing money on that day, and yet they still did their best to provide an experience. I'm just not…00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: It's just not always…00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:31.000Stuart Winchester: super clear throughout the portfolio, particularly in the Lower Midwest, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, uh, in some of the Pennsylvania ski areas, Mid-Atlantic.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: that that this is their operating philosophy. So I think that.00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: I think Vail's better than most…00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: than you would think, scrolling through social media. Uh, in general, I've been to pretty much every Vail resort in North America, other than, I think, the two in Missouri and Paoli Peaks.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:07.000Stuart Winchester: And I generally have a really good time and a positive experience, and I find the staff friendly, and that's a super important thing to me. I love that Vail puts bars on all the lifts. I love that they're focused on safety in general, that they help police speed. As someone who skis with my kids, that's important to me.00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: So I generally have a pretty good experience. I think…00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:29.000Stuart Winchester: there's a little too much gum in the machine, maybe, when it comes to communicating these things and owning and correcting mistakes. So, anyway, with that, I will leave Vel alone for today, and you're probably wondering why I haven't yet covered the new Slate.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:44.000Stuart Winchester: of proposed board members by Oasis Capital for Vail Resorts. I don't want to get too into the weeds on stock stuff, but I do have some thoughts on that. I want to wait till I have a little bit more time to break it down.00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: So I thank you for coming today. I hope you enjoyed that podcast episode.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:58.000Stuart Winchester: If you are not already subscribed to the Storm Skiing newsletter, please click over to stormskiing.com and subscribe.00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:14.000Stuart Winchester: That will come right to your inbox. It is not only podcasts, I do a ton of writing. And if you want to upgrade to a paid subscription to the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, that will give you everything below the paywall, which is a lot of really deep analysis.00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: that I do on the lift service ski industry, particularly in North America, and especially in the United States. Also, if you're a paid subscriber to The Storm at stormskiing.com, that is the only way to interact with the podcast, because I'm only reading comments from the.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:30.000Stuart Winchester: Previous.00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:47.000Stuart Winchester: Day's podcast and only paid subscribers can comment. Only paid subscribers can join the chat, which is the second way that they can interact with the podcast. If you want to rep the storm, we have a swag store. You can buy shirts, hats, et cetera, at stormskiing.myshopify.com.00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:52.000Stuart Winchester: Please follow me on YouTube. YouTube is…00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.000Stuart Winchester: Where we will increasingly.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:02.000Stuart Winchester: It'll be increasingly important to us, and right now, we don't have that many subscribers there. Uh, everything is going there, but it's just not…00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:12.000Stuart Winchester: made it into the cultural fabric of that site just yet, so please follow me at Storm Ski Journal on YouTube. Also, Instagram, which I post on more during the winter season.00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:27.000Stuart Winchester: I will be back tomorrow, or I'm scheduled to be back tomorrow, with, and this is one a lot of people have asked me for, a conversation with the general manager of what I think was perhaps the most improved ski area in the country last year, Camelback.00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:38.000Stuart Winchester: Pennsylvania. If you're rolling your eyes, if you live out west, I encourage you to tune in anyway, because the story of Camelback is a really good story of how do we do things wrong?Stuff referenced in the pod:Monarch's amazing season pass reciprocal network:A full breakdown of Monarch's U.S. Forest Service masterplan:Conversation with Snow Partners' CEO Joe Hession: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is going to cover Midwestern skiing whether you like it or not. Don't worry, Colorad-Bro, it's your turn tomorrow.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a (robot-generated) podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Tuesday, Sept. 15.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Monday, September 14th, 2026. Welcome to week two of the New Look Storm Skiing Podcast. If you missed last week, I am still doing the longer form pod.00:15:53.000 --> 00:16:08.000Stuart Winchester: But I'm cutting way back on the frequency of those. Instead, I am doing a shorter, news-focused pod that I release more often, and whenever possible, that I release the same day that I record it.00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I'm doing that is because…00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: the world has changed a lot since 2019, when I launched the Storm Skiing podcast, and when I launched it, there really wasn't anything quite like…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:26.000Stuart Winchester: what I was doing with the long-form audio stories of a ski area's background.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: I've done a couple hundred episodes at this point.00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.000Stuart Winchester: I feel like…00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:47.000Stuart Winchester: They're evergreen. But what they don't allow me to do is to really talk about what's happening in a ski area right now. Uh Especially when there's a lot of things happening and there's a lot of pieces and parts shuffling around as there is right now in the Midwest.00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: with multi-mountain passes. So, what I'm doing…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: is I'm trying out a little bit of a new format today. The format… we're gonna experiment, we're gonna play around with it. Sometimes there'll be a guest off the top, sometimes I'll have a take off the top, uh, sometimes I'll have a guest on for a longer period, and that's gonna be the case today.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:22.000Stuart Winchester: Because right now there is so much happening in the Midwest with multi mountain passes and different mountains leaving and joining is completely changing the landscape there. So I want to bring in someone to talk to us at length about that. We'll do a couple other fun things as well.00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: Let's bring…00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000Stuart Winchester: I'm in now.00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.000Stuart Winchester: And there he is. Can you hear me, Matthew?00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Hey, how's it going, Stuart?00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.000Matthew Zabransky: I can.00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, I can't hear you. All right. This is a flub, and this is why I haven't heard her.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.000Stuart Winchester: Because I am not that smart.00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, you there?00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.000Matthew Zabransky: Can you hear me?00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, yes, I can. Look at that.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay, perfect.00:17:52.000 --> 00:18:07.000Stuart Winchester: The technology known as headphones. Matthew, this is why you're the production guy, and I generally stick to writing, because I'm an idiot. Alright, I want to introduce today the founder of MidwestSkiers.com.00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: He founded that in 2018, and in 2020, founded MWS Productions.00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:29.000Stuart Winchester: He is making all the Midwest content that I was dying for in the 1990s when I was a teenager living and skiing in Michigan, and the ski mags would completely ignore the region and maybe mention Boyne Mountain or Luton once per year, but he makes.00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:38.000Stuart Winchester: Top quality content. I link to it all the time in my stuff because no one else quite does it, as well as Matthew Zabranski. Matthew, welcome to The Storm. How you doing today?00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:56.000Matthew Zabransky: I am doing fantastic. Stuart, thank you, first of all, for the opportunity, but more importantly, for also repping the Midwest. I think it's such an important, obviously, region, and you have ties to it, I obviously have ties to it as well, so it's great that we're getting recognition, not only, obviously, in our region now, but on the national, even international scale, so…00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you so much for doing that. I appreciate it. I'm excited to be here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I love covering the Midwest, Matthew, and I still make it a point to go back and take a Midwest trip every year, because there's…00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:27.000Stuart Winchester: when I'm doing this podcast, there's nothing quite like making relationships, like showing up at, you know, a 200 vertical foothill in the boondocks in Minnesota. People are like, okay, I'll talk to this guy, even though, you know, I've never heard of him. So, but you are 100% Midwest-focused. I cover it where I can and whenever I can.00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:37.000Stuart Winchester: There is so much happening in the Midwest that we could talk about. I really want to focus today on multi-mountain passes. So…00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:53.000Stuart Winchester: I'll start by, I'll just set this up and then I'll, and then I'll, I'll let you comment on it. So if you go back about 10 years, there was nothing in the Midwest on multi mountain passes. You know, Vale had started to add a few things to Epic Pass and B Brighton and Afton Alps and Wilmot and such.00:19:53.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: But the real inflection point came in 2019, when IndiePass came along. 2018, Icon added a couple things. So, right now, I'll give you some stats.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:09.000Stuart Winchester: Of the 124 ski areas that I have inventoried in the Midwest, that you might have a different count.00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:15.000Stuart Winchester: They're 117 of those are public. 89 of those are public with aerial lifts.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:28.000Stuart Winchester: 58 of those, although there's a couple that are just surface toes only, so 58 ski areas in the Midwest are now on a national multi-mountain ski pass. 10 on Epic.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.000Stuart Winchester: 11 on Icon, 37 for Indy. So, so to start out with, Matthew.00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: How has…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: the acceptance of the Midwest by multi-mountain national passes change the calculus for skiers as they're planning out their winter in the Midwest, compared to what it was for most of history up until just a few years ago?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, it's changed dramatically. It's even going back a little bit further. I think the first initial, if you look at the statistics and you obviously know all this offhand, but back when you go back to Vail's acquisition of Wilmont, Afton.00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:19.000Matthew Zabransky: Brighton back in like 2012. I mean, that's really what started to to kick off this like idea of like. Maybe the Midwest has some legs in it, as far as like developing skiers, and then, you know, bringing them into a pass portfolio that could bring them out west. So that was the very early set, you know, early iteration of this. And then, obviously, as we went along, there wasn't.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:37.000Matthew Zabransky: too many options outside of just the epic pass. But then, like you mentioned, Indie Pass came in, and I knew, and it's you know, as we dive into this, I do want to do a little disclosure here, and like Indie Pass was my very 1st client from a production side of things. So Doug and I, because I I saw the opportunity like there was an absolute gold mine here. I'm like.00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:55.000Matthew Zabransky: Because I got to travel around, that's why I started MidwestGears.com, because we were… we were traveling for my wife's job all over the Midwest, and every time we'd go to a new city, Columbus, Akron, I'd be a pass holder at one of these little ski areas, and I'd be like, holy crap, there's a lot of them here, no one's talking about them.00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:15.000Matthew Zabransky: But you know, once you start to realize there was this many, then you're then you're starting to think, okay, like, why isn't somebody coming in here and starting to develop a past that could actually stand on its own. And that's what we've seen the last, I would say, 5 to 10 years. Specifically, we've seen more people traveling around in the Midwest. You'll catch people at any stereo across the Midwest. That's not their home hill, and that's not how it used.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:27.000Matthew Zabransky: you go ski or one little local place for the most part, you might do your weekend trip up to Boyne or something, but you would never catch people going to some of these really small places, you know, outside of just the local crew there, so it's been really cool to watch people.00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:45.000Matthew Zabransky: travel and discover, more importantly, the different areas, uh, throughout the Midwest. I think a lot of that had to do with IndyPass's push in the Midwest, because, as we're gonna talk about here in a second, it was an absolute auto-buy. Like, there was not even a question about it. From the day it started, when it was, you know, what was that, $99?00:22:45.000 --> 00:23:02.000Matthew Zabransky: up until even just the last year. It was like you almost just were gonna if you lived in the Midwest, and you like skiing, and you don't. You know you like traveling around checking out new things. There was no reason not to buy it. You'd be silly, basically not to, just because how much saturation there was in the Midwest, which I think is going to lead us into our next conversation a little bit here.00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so the…00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:15.000Stuart Winchester: Just being on the ground, before we get to the shuffling around, you know, I'd imagine you're pretty connected with a lot of pretty hardcore skiers, pretty frequent skiers.00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.000Stuart Winchester: How much has…00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:24.000Stuart Winchester: that a… a season… a multi-mountain pass becomes something that the person in the Midwest just…00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:40.000Stuart Winchester: considers or, or automatically buys it as compared to several years ago where you might buy your local season pass, but, but you, you probably, like you said, you wouldn't go around. And when I lived in the Midwest, actually, I always appreciated how close the areas were, so I would just kind of bounce around a lot for.00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:46.000Stuart Winchester: for deal days or whatever, back when those were still a thing. But how automatic has it become?00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Very. I mean, there's people that have been buying the IndyPass specifically now. Up until this season, it was like they were probably on their fifth year of doing it and just continue to. And to be honest, there wasn't any reason not to because the pricing has stayed relatively affordable.00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:17.000Matthew Zabransky: they keep they kept strengthening their pro, their their product. I mean, like they just kept adding more ski areas in the Midwest. And so in in a lot of times the pass would pay itself off within a couple of visits based off of some of the redemption rates that you'd be getting at some somewhere like Lutz and Snow River.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:34.000Matthew Zabransky: um, those are all, like, you know, $100 tickets, so you buy… you go there once or twice, you get two days of each of them, and basically that's already done. So if you already had one of those trips kind of on there, and if you lived in Chicago, you're going to Granite Peak usually once or twice a year. If you lived in Minnesota, you're going to Lutz.00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:52.000Matthew Zabransky: So it almost became this thing. And then you shuffle in like nubs, knob, and all that. So it it very much was like, yeah, we're gonna buy it every single year, you know, we might not. And some people are hardcore and going to all the places they could. And some people were just, you know. Hey? I'm gonna buy it because I'm gonna go for a weekend, so I might as well. And then I have this option of going some other places.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:03.000Matthew Zabransky: it was huge. I mean, I don't… of course, I don't have any of the IndyPass numbers, but I would… I would venture to say that the Midwest had to be a very big portion of their portfolio from the sales and redemption standpoint.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: So the traditional numbers that Indy has given me, and it's been a couple years since Doug Fish provided these round numbers to me, but he told me about half of their sales came in New England, and 25% came in the Midwest, which is a really big number for a national pass. So you figured the other quarter were coming from somewhere else.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Matthew Zabransky: Cool.00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.000Matthew Zabransky: For… yeah.00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:25.000Stuart Winchester: I always give Doug Fish credit, because he's a Pacific Northwest guy, and…00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:40.000Stuart Winchester: Western skiers just love to hate on the Midwest. Everyone loves to hate on the Midwest. It's like the national pastime. It's like the safe thing to make fun of, and you know, I hope you take that personally, because I always do, and I really appreciated that Doug.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000Matthew Zabransky: Is…00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.000Matthew Zabransky: I do.00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:55.000Stuart Winchester: Included the Midwest from the start. That first year in 2019, he had Little Switz, he had Crystal, he had Cabre Fay, he had a bunch of other ski areas. Really got big in 2020 when he added Lutzen and Granite Peak. Now, I always say his insight was…00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:45.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:02.000Stuart Winchester: that Doug's great insight with the IndyPass was realizing there was value in the mountains that are not.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:08.000Stuart Winchester: super destinations when you put them all together for skiers across the country. He also…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:23.000Stuart Winchester: the fact that he extended that to the Midwest is huge, because, yes, I… so, before Icon started adding in into the Midwest, which we'll talk about in a minute, I would always say, Indy Pass is the pass to go to in the Midwest, no one else has anything, and everyone would always say, oh, wait, Epic has 10 mountains. I was like.00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: But the Midwest is gigantic. Unless you live in Ohio, they're very spread out, and they're near cities, and there are actually mountains in the Midwest that are more…00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:44.000Stuart Winchester: of, of what you would consider, like, regional destinations. And that, that's your Boyne, Nubs, Lutsen, uh, even, even Spira with the bigger, uh, all the stuff over in the UP.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:57.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy really collected them all together, and it was almost too good to be true, because they had over 40 ski areas in the Midwest. Talk about Indy at its peak.00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:02.000Stuart Winchester: And how great of a pass that was for the Midwest here.00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:17.000Matthew Zabransky: It was too great. We're going to get into this, I'm sure, but I think that's part of the reason for the course correction. There was a moment two or three years ago when I literally turned to Nick, my associate who edits for me and stuff, and I said, with some of the additions they announced at that time, I said.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:33.000Matthew Zabransky: this is too saturated like it's got to fix itself at some point like it's just. It's too good of a value, and like for skiers, we like anybody that was buying the passes like this is amazing. It makes it like again. It's an auto buy like, why wouldn't you do this? But I knew that this time was going to come at some point. But I'm you know, at least we got to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:50.000Matthew Zabransky: to see what it like. The peak of that was for a little while. We got a couple of years. We've got to be happy for that, to be honest. We're starting to see some of those what I'll call course corrections now and and we're going to continue to see this. I mean, you know that every every year it's going to be something new. Someone's changing. It's just kind of the nature of the business. But.00:27:50.000 --> 00:28:02.000Matthew Zabransky: it was not a shock to me when, um, when these changes were announced, uh, both in the spring and then more recently in the last few weeks and stuff, so it wasn't… I kind of saw it coming, it was just a matter of, like, when was it gonna happen.00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: So everyone left… they seemed as though… Epic and Icon seemed like they were just leaving the Midwest to Indy, to take. And I've always thought that Icon's original sin was when they killed the Max Pass.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:30.000Stuart Winchester: And launched the Icon Pass. They brought all the Powder Mountains, all the Boyne Mountains, uh, all the Intra West Mountains, but they didn't bring Granite Peak and Lutzen, which are the biggest ski areas or most modern, however, whatever metric you want to use in Minnesota and, and Wisconsin.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000Stuart Winchester: So…00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: for a long time, Indy just built up this huge coalition. Started to see some cracks last year. Icon had just two mountains, Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, and honestly, and Boyne has never affirmed this to me, but my hunch is, Boyne said, include our mountains or you don't get Big Sky.00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, yeah.00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:01.000Stuart Winchester: So, so, Icon was like, okay, I guess we'll add these stupid little things. Uh, which is not my opinion of them, but I think that's probably what they thought from Colorado, which is why they dropped Lutzen and Granite Peak. So, last year, we started to see the first crack in Indy's armor.00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.000Matthew Zabransky: I was like, don't do that.00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:12.000Stuart Winchester: when the Icon Pass… they call them bonus mountains, I call them two-day mountains, because that's what they are. If you have an Icon Pass, you get two days of these mountains. Uh, Buck Hill, Minnesota.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:27.000Stuart Winchester: Uh joined the icon pass as a two day mountain, which for the listeners, that's no, you get no base pass access, you only get full icon access and there are holiday blackouts. So that's what the two day tier is. They added Buck Hill. Uh Indy said, no, you're not allowed to do that. Remove Buck Hill.00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which is a great little, uh, you know.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.000Stuart Winchester: kind of trainer hill outside of the Twin Cities.00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:40.000Stuart Winchester: And every square inch is used with very maximum effect. So Indy removed them.00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:53.000Stuart Winchester: Buck Hill has been on Icon, and that was sort of the first… when you first saw that, did you think, okay, here we go, Icon is finally starting to realize the value of the Midwest, and if not, what was the moment that you did think that they got it?00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000Matthew Zabransky: I would, you know, the whole time I've been shaking my head a little bit because it's just ironic to me that Boeing, Boeing, one of the biggest companies in, you know, that started in the Midwest, that literally has its roots here. And I'm just shocked that Icon hasn't.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:26.000Matthew Zabransky: made this push earlier, and it took this long. But that was like the 1st that was the 1st like mention of that. And the other connection that was really kind of just crazy to me is, there's so many people from the twin cities that go to Big Sky like a lot like you talk to people all over the place. They have cabins up there. They.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:42.000Matthew Zabransky: They're traveling there all the time. It's a huge destination for specifically for Minnesota, it seems. So I was always thinking, man, like if they were just to strengthen this pass a little bit in the Midwest, give somebody a reason to, to jump on to the icon pass. They're probably going out to Big Sky anyway.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:57.000Matthew Zabransky: now all of a sudden, you give them another reason to buy the full pass, you got some… some more local hills, some day… like, weekend trips, you can go up to Lutzen, things like that, and I think that's when… when Lutzen and those guys came on, that was, like, full-blown, that's gonna… that changes everything. Like, everything.00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:14.000Matthew Zabransky: As you know, the lake, Lake Michigan, is a huge divider for the eastern and the western side of what I'll call the Midwest. Basically, if you're on the eastern side of the lake, you're kind of going to stick to mostly your lower peninsula, maybe go up to the UP occasionally. But if you're on the western side over here, in the Minneapolis.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:31.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, there was really no offerings for Icon, so it really made no sense at that point to buy an Icon Pass. You know, maybe Chicago, you drive up to Boeing, but you're kind of on that cusp there, where it's like, mmm… but I think once they strengthened it this past year, now it's like… it's a fair fight, in my opinion. Now we're.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:46.000Matthew Zabransky: You know, which one is gonna make more sense for you, or your situation, which it was not, it didn't used to be that way, it just, there was never an opportunity for most people that were on this side of the lake, or in Minneapolis. Sometimes it didn't make sense, unless you're going out to, you know, Big Sky for a week and a half, it, you know.00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so just a little background for the listeners.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Boyne Mountain and and.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:08.000Stuart Winchester: what they call the Highlands at Harbor Springs. I'll call it Boyne Highlands because no one knows what I'm talking about when I say the Highlands. So Boyne and Boyne Highlands are two of the nicer ski areas, more built up ski areas in Michigan, and they were long on Icon. Uh, Lutzen and Granite Peak.00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:58.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, this…00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:14.000Stuart Winchester: that, uh, Midwest Family Ski Resorts, which owns Lutzen and Granite Peak, bought, immediately took.00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: four old riblet lifts, put in a high-speed six-pack, the first one in the UP. So, those three ski areas had been indie anchors in the Midwest for years.00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.000Stuart Winchester: This year, for 2026-27 winter, they're going as 5-7 day…00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:42.000Stuart Winchester: mountains each on Icon and Icon Base, and so they are leaving the Indy Pass as a result of that. Now, Icon has also added some more two-day mountains. I'm gonna put those to the side for a second.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:50.000Stuart Winchester: How big of a loss was Lutsen and Granite Peak and Snow River for Indy Pass in the Midwest?00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:06.000Matthew Zabransky: It's it's an easy question. I mean the answer just like, go look at the comments on the thread when it was announced, and you could just read how an impactful it was. And I think that was my argument when people started talking about like, Oh, they're you know, hey? Like they're leaving. They're leaving us in the dust, and we we don't like them anymore.00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:29.000Matthew Zabransky: It's probably justified. If you guys are this upset about them leaving, it means they probably had a little more leverage than they should have in that past portfolio. And I think it to that. And again, I don't know that it needs, like, a passion never be so strong, in my opinion. And I'm talking about the business side of things. You're not talking about the skier. Trust me, if I was, like, just skiing Matthew, put my skiing thing on, I'd be like, yeah, absolutely.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, but from the business side, as an area owner, operator, you gotta look at it, like, what kind of value are we getting back out of this pass? Are we the ones carrying your product? Like, that's the other thing to think about, too, right? We don't… you don't always necessarily want to be the top dog in the pass lineup. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. Uh, and in this case, I think that they…00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:56.000Matthew Zabransky: they were carrying that pass line up, and I think nothing speaks more to the volumes of how upset people were when they came off of the pass.00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000Stuart Winchester: So we're… I've kind of looked at this as it's…00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: sucks for Indy, it's probably good for the consumer in the long run, because, like you said, you never want too much market concentration, so now you have… you have the Snow Pass coming up, which is… which is Snow Partners in two days…00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:28.000Stuart Winchester: at each mountain. There's none in the Midwest yet, but I suspect there may be at some point. Right now, they're mostly in the Northeast. And then you have Icon. So, before, I think a lot of people in Michigan probably had Icon, because you could use it for the Boynes, but like you said.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: if you're not from the Midwest, you're probably just thinking it's like a big square, but there's a lake there, and you can't… I mean, you can take a ferry over it, but it takes all day, right? You have to go to Ludington, and it's like a whole thing, right? So really, you have Michigan, the Lower Peninsula, and then you kind.00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:58.000Stuart Winchester: Wisconsin. So, you live on the west side of that, I believe, like, around the Minnesota-Wisconsin line. How immediately did you see people say, okay, well, now, yeah, let's consider Icon that maybe never would have before?00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:04.000Matthew Zabransky: I think the original, like, when it first was announced, there was just a lot of, like.00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:17.000Matthew Zabransky: oh man, this sucks. Like, now what? You know, what do we do? Because the initial reaction was like, well, I'm not gonna auto-buy this now, I gotta think about it a little bit more. I'm curious because I haven't… it's still so fresh, to be honest, and I haven't, like.00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:32.000Matthew Zabransky: but to, like, really figure that question, like, the answer to that question out, but I have… the one thing I have been seeing is a lot more people starting to weigh those options, right? They're starting to look at the passes differently now. Now it's, like, not just, like, we're gonna pick up Indy automatically and, you know, whatever might throw a different pass on there. Now they.00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:49.000Matthew Zabransky: think about, how am I using my pass? Am I going up to Lutzen for a weekend or 2? Does it make sense for me to just get an icon pass? Am I a pass holder at Lutzen, and want to add it on now that that's an option, and maybe do an out west trip, or if you're granted peak. So I'm starting to see more people analyzing.00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:03.000Matthew Zabransky: in an area where they haven't before. So I'll be curious to see this upcoming season will be a really good test to kind of figure out, like, where are those numbers starting to shift a little bit. But, um, from my first reaction is I have a feeling that there's gonna be a pretty big drop in IndyPass sales in the Midwest.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:20.000Matthew Zabransky: For that reasoning. Um, and then I do think there's gonna be a bit of a spike, um, in, in IconPass sales. I don't think it's gonna obviously affect much on the Michigan side, Lower Peninsula side of things. I think that'll stay pretty stable. But I think this side, for sure, this market, Minneapolis specifically, a little bit of Chicago.00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:25.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, but I would expect to see a pretty good little spike in sales on the IconPass side.00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:35.000Stuart Winchester: So, Lutzen and Granite Peak, I think, huge losses for India. Snow River, less so, just because Powderhorn is right next door, and it's kind of the same size, and it's, you know, gets the same s.00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:53.000Stuart Winchester: Continued building by Icon after that announcement, and, and some, and some continued bleeding by Indy. So, so Icon had a Giants Ridge, which is an excellent ski area up in Minnesota. It's, it's kind of in the middle of nowhere, but it's worth it. Uh, Devil's Head, which is a nice, uh, Madison ski area, and then.00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:10.000Stuart Winchester: in Michigan left Indy to join the Icon today, so those all joined Icon today. And then Indy also lost Little Switzerland, Nordic Mountain, and Crystal Ridge in Wisconsin. As of now, they are passless. So, you know, those are small ski areas, but they're really important sort of urban.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.000Stuart Winchester: collectors, but do you worry, Matthew, and I'll say, Indy still has 37 ski areas in the Midwest, but do you worry that their coalition is splintering a little bit, starting to fall apart?00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:40.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, a little bit. So I'm going to dance around this as carefully as I can because I have connections with all these owners, operators, and I talk to them on a regular basis, so I kind of know more than I probably should. But I'll try to navigate this the best that I can.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:56.000Matthew Zabransky: with… when IndyPass started, Doug Fish and the team did a really nice job of making sure that when they signed a ski area on, that they were being very, very intentional about its location, what… who was serving, and then when they would add another person on, a lot of times they would even approach.00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:04.000Matthew Zabransky: some of the nearby ski areas, and be like, hey, we're adding so-and-so, or making sure that those partnerships were all, you know.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:22.000Matthew Zabransky: You're not too close where you're starting to monopolize business in different ways. I'll talk a little bit more about this in a second. So that was the approach for many, many years. However, I noticed a pretty big change a handful of years ago when it became more about a statistical difference than building those partnerships and.00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:41.000Matthew Zabransky: making those owners feel valued, if that makes sense. So it was like, okay, how can we just continue to pump numbers, get more? And in that process, what happened was a lot of ski areas in a small geographical area. And why has that caused a lot of issues for owners and operators? Is the idea of the IndyPass was, yeah.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:50.000Matthew Zabransky: to create value with a portfolio of ski areas across the Midwest to rival that of, like, you know, other multi-mountain passes.00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:06.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, but what some of the owners and operators were starting to see was that instead of skiers buying a season pass at their local ski area, what they would do is buy the Indy Pass, ski two days at the ski area that would have been their local ski area, and then.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000Matthew Zabransky: You know, in some cases, like in the Twin Cities, you have a handful that are within a two hour drive. So then it became this thing of like, oh, we're starting to see RR like personal season passes drop for then people that are using IndiePass redemptions to treat it as if it were basically a season pass.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:40.000Matthew Zabransky: I'm summarizing a lot there. There's a lot, like, to dive into, like, the details, but I can't, unfortunately, go into too much of that. But I think you can probably get the idea of why that was a little bit frustrating for some, um, owners and operators. So they really had to take a deep dive into some of those numbers and start to look at, like.00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:50.000Matthew Zabransky: Where are these people coming from? How are the redemptions being used? And then, you know, how is this pass either, you know, net positive or net negative for us? And, you know, I always tell everybody, it's…00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:00.000Matthew Zabransky: the ski business is, you know, Stuart, is just a very, very low margin business, and it is a business. Like, at the end of the day, like, they have to treat it like…00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:22.000Matthew Zabransky: you know, like you gotta find out where you're losing money, or is there opportunity? And that assessment has to happen on a yearly basis. And sometimes when they run it for their business, they might be finding out that this might not be a great option for them. Or maybe it was, and things have changed. And now it's not so. It's an ongoing assessment. And like I was mentioning earlier, this is going to be a game that is going to play out over the next 10 years, probably where people are going to be switching teams all the time. And.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000Matthew Zabransky: and just get used to it. I mean, this is gonna be the way it is, unfortunately or fortunately, you know.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:31.000Stuart Winchester: If you're Indy, what's your next move to try to build your coalition back up?00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I think the biggest thing they need to do is get some sort of anchor on this side of the lake. I mean, you've got Nub's Knob on Lower Peninsula, which is a great offering. I think that that really does anchor that side for sure. Over here, you gotta start eyeing up some areas that would serve as that anchor ski area. I know Whitecap was added.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:49.000 --> 00:41:04.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, which is good, but I think, like, you gotta think about, you know, what is that replacement for? You know, what is that replacement for Granite Peak? And it immediately comes to mind, like, a Cascade, right? Or one of those. And we all know, like, it's just gonna be a tough sale for some of these operations, because it's always that, like.00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000Matthew Zabransky: If you're an anchor skier, you've probably got a good operation and a good thing going already, so…00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:29.000Matthew Zabransky: you know, what is the pitch? Why should I join your indie pass? So it's always this give and take a little bit, but, you know, given that we've had a bunch of ski areas now come off of indie, there might be an opportunity to fill that little bit of a void and be kind of that new anchor spot that would then highlight that side of the lake. I don't know. It'll be curious to see kind of how things play out, but.00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:37.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, I think we'll see a little bit of this course correction go on for the next year or two, and then I think maybe we'll see some moves in the future. It's hard to say.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Stuart Winchester: That was really good, so I'm gonna extend that question. If you're Icon, what's your next move in the Midwest, and if you're Epic?00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000Matthew Zabransky: If if I'm icon, what I'm circling right now to be quite frank is somewhere in the Chicagoland area. There's an opportunity there, and I don't, you know, of course. What is it? We don't know, but I think if you could add an offering like a full offering to which is a little bit tricky to do. But yeah, like you think of something like.00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:24.000Matthew Zabransky: Cascade, Devil's Head, one of those areas, if you can get it into, like, a full area where you can now grab that Chicago market and have it really well solidified, because right now you're kind of in a, you know, it's about four hours from up to Granite Peak, and then Boeing the other way is something like that, five or something. So you're kind of in that weird dead zone there, so I think there's still a huge opportunity to grab that market, which obviously is a huge market of skiers and s.00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And if you're Epic, I mean, they have all city stuff, so what do you do if you're Epic?00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I mean, I think Epic's playing the card that they want. The one thing that I am curious to see with Epic is not necessarily that, it's what's gonna happen with some of these smaller regional ski areas that have kind of been left in the dust a little bit. Paley Peaks is the first one that comes to mind when you start to think about this Snow Creek.00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:49.000 --> 00:43:06.000Matthew Zabransky: These ones that are just kind of in no man's land a little bit. They kind of got brought in with the Peak Resorts acquisition. I'm not sure that they necessarily wanted some of these ski areas, but they came in as a package deal as part of that. So it's just gonna be kind of interesting to see. They need a lot of reinvestment over the next, you know.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:23.000Matthew Zabransky: 10 to 15 years, for sure, if not even sooner than that. So it'll be curious to see kind of how they approach those sort of areas in those regions, because some of those are in their own land like there is no ski area relatively close to some of them, or a couple of hours to the nearest ski area. So it'll be curious to see how they leverage that going forward.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Matthew, I could sink into that one for about two hours and we could have a talk. I'm going to have to bring you back for that one. But for now, let's move on. And some of the folks who may not be familiar with the Midwest, we're going to talk about some of our favorite Midwest ski areas in just a moment. First, I want to tell you that this podcast is brought to you today by Profile Search International.00:43:44.000 --> 00:44:03.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search is the only talent acquisition firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry. They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:19.000Stuart Winchester: 30 years. Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada, and they find and negotiate with the right leaders for their team. If you want to reach out to Profile Search, you can find them at profilesearch.com, and you can get their email or phone number there, or send me a note and I will.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:26.000Stuart Winchester: make that connection for you. That is profilesearch.com. All right, Matthew, I gave you a challenge.00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or, or homework or something. I don't know. I'm sure you didn't have to think too hard about this, but we are going to break down our five favorite Midwest ski areas. We each have five. We'll, we'll start with five and, and, uh, and we'll take turns. Now, these are not what we think are the best necessarily because that's a whole different.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:47.000Stuart Winchester: Conversation and I tried to think about.00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:59.000Stuart Winchester: If you've never skied the Midwest and are only going to ski here once in your life, where would I tell people to go? So, Matthew, I'll start with you. What is your number five favorite Midwest ski area and why?00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:14.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah. So I'll just just key this up with like, yeah, I agree with you. I went with kind of like I took an approach of uniqueness. There's different things that I enjoy about this years for different reasons, and I'll obviously unpack them as we kind of go through number 5 for me was perfect north slopes.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:32.000Matthew Zabransky: And at its face, you might not think that that's… it's, you know, it's a ski area right outside of, uh, Cincinnati, um, and the southern tip of Indiana down there. And for, you know, for people that have never heard of it, they'd be like, why does this… why is this even on here? Uh, but the moment that you visit there, I think it all becomes very clear. Their throughput.00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:51.000Matthew Zabransky: their snowmaking capacity, their operations. It is a gold standard when we think of how to run a ski area in extremely challenging conditions and environments. Perfect North is the one that comes to mind. The way that they can move people through their rental department is phenomenal. The way that they can have a stable season based off of where they are.00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:08.000Matthew Zabransky: is just absolutely mind blowing. And they've been doing this since day one. So this isn't something that they have. You know they're new to. They've been doing this for many, many, many decades now at this point. So it's it's definitely worth a visit. Their train's really good as well. They have some Olympians that have come out of there just some some good stuff going down at at perfect north slopes.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:23.000Stuart Winchester: I'm so glad you said Perfect North, because I did not include it on my list, but I think they are one of the best operators in the country. My number 5 is Chestnut, Illinois, and everyone's… you know why, but everyone's gonna say, Illinois? Like, what does it matter with you?00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:29.000Stuart Winchester: It is so unique, because you get up there, and it's about 500 vertical feet.00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:45.000Stuart Winchester: and you ski down to the freaking Mississippi River. It is… there is nothing else like that in American skiing. It is such a gorgeous view, and there's a train that goes by, and, and, and… the lift system is fantastic. Bunch of, you know, really maintained quads.00:46:45.000 --> 00:47:00.000Stuart Winchester: They have bars, which I like, which most Midwest ski areas don't, but they've retrofit them. Their grooming is phenomenal. Terrain's really good, steep and varied, and then one of the best things is on the backside, and the name of this probably is escaping me, it's like the backyard or something.00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah. Okay.00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, far side.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, so they have a terrain park that could be its own ski area, and it has a lift by itself, and so all the badly behaved teenagers go over there and throw cans around and smoke. Maybe it was just the day I was there.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:20.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but, but my number five is Chestnut, Illinois. Uh, number four, Matthew.00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:37.000Matthew Zabransky: This is gonna be. This is gonna be a deep cut here, and I'll give you my reasoning. So I'm a sucker for community rope toe ski places like it. It warms my heart every time every year there's at least one or 2 that I go to every time I show up. It's just the kids are so excited to show me around.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Oh, love it.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:47:37.000 --> 00:48:00.000Matthew Zabransky: They're so passionate and it really brings me back to why skiing is important and what it really is about, right? We talk about the steeps and all this fun stuff all the time, but like when you go to these places, there's just to see a kid just in jeans or whatever it may be after school ripping down. It's so fun. So one of my favorite, if not my favorite rope to ski area in the entire Midwest is a place called Hickory Hills. It's in Traverse City.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:18.000Matthew Zabransky: It's a beautiful setting overlooking the bay, and they have just all ropes and one conveyor, and it's stacked. And it was one of the first ski areas in the Midwest to offer night skiing, which I thought was really, really cool as well. Obviously, not a lot of vertical, maybe 200 feet of vertical, depending on which rope you're going on, but it's one of those places you just show up.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:30.000Matthew Zabransky: And they've reinvested, as recently as 2018, they built a new lodge, new snowmaking, and you just show up there, and you're just like, it brings you back to that, like, oh yeah, this is some good skiing, like, just…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:37.000Matthew Zabransky: fundamental, good stuff, you see kids ripping around after school, it's like, it's what I think of when I think of, uh, rope tow places.00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: And long live the rope tow. I mean, it is amazing that I think they run five or six there, right?00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:46.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I think they have six total, I believe, yeah.00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I've been there in the summer. I've never skied there. I used to ski at Sugarloaf down the… down the road till that went out of business. My number 4 is one you already mentioned, Matthew. Whitecap, Wisconsin. I just love this crazy ski area. It is…00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.000Matthew Zabransky: Yo.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: I like to be confused when I'm skiing. I like it when a ski area…00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:22.000Stuart Winchester: Kind of hides its secrets and has lots of little trails and the trail map doesn't quite match up with the, with what you actually see. And, and there's lifts all over the place and there's little pockets and there's, you can tell that they don't care if you ski in the trees. And, and, and Whitecap is, is one of the most confusing ski areas I've, I've ever been to and I love.00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: it's in the great snow pocket off of Lake Superior, gets 200 or more inches of snow average per year, which is a good thing, because they don't have a lot of snowmaking, uh, there. But I really, really love Whitecap, and by the way, we did not share ours before, so we may have some crossover here. So, uh, what's your number 3, Matthew?00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:55.000Matthew Zabransky: Number three, I am going with a ski area that I think people around here would know, but I think people on the other side of the lake would not. And it is going to be Welch Village. Welch Village is an area that just, you look at the numbers, you read the stats, and you're like, this place…00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:15.000Matthew Zabransky: cannot be that good. But it really is. It skis so much bigger than the stats suggest. I think it's about 300 feet of vertical. They have like 50 something runs. But I think what Welch Village has that a lot of skiers don't is the amount of terrain variation and stepping that they have is just phenomenal for beginners, and the fact that it's only about 40 minutes from the Twin Cities.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:31.000Matthew Zabransky: is amazing. So they have basically a run for every progression. If you want super steep, now obviously it's only 300 feet of vertical, so it's gonna be a handful of turns, but they have that. If you want something very, very gently sloped, they got that, and basically everything in between. And it's just one of those areas that is a perfect.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:41.000Matthew Zabransky: Kind of like just outside the urban reach, right? It's not like in your backyard, but it's close enough where you can easily go for a few hours and just a perfect place to learn how to ski and snowboard.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I love Welch Village. I was super impressed when I went there a few years ago, and it's not too far from Vail's Afton Alps, so you can do both in a day easily if you want to, but Welch Village, first-rate operation, absolutely one of the best in the Midwest. My number three is a nostalgia play, and I'm gonna say Boyne Mount.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:13.000Stuart Winchester: The reason I love Boyne Mountain is not because of the fast lift, so they were the first six-pack in North America, and, you know, they put in the first eight-pack in the Midwest, and there's a lot of history there. The first chairlift in the world is there. They moved it from Sun Valley.00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:23.000Stuart Winchester: the single chair from Sun Valley back in the… in the 40s, and it's now the Hemlock double chair. But what I love Boyne Mountain is because when I… back in the 90s, when I lived in Michigan.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:30.000Stuart Winchester: they would stay open into May. And back then, there was no social media, so no one knew about it, so I'd show up, and there would be…00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:26.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: not kidding, 10 people skiing, and they would be running that six-pack all day, and they would let it bump up, and just run idiots to light, and it's where I learned how to ski moguls, and I've always just been tremendously fond of Boyne for that reason. So while it is one of the nicest ski areas in the Midwest, just on its own terms.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:51:47.000 --> 00:52:02.000Stuart Winchester: It's also very steep. It's just, I have that feeling of, you know, that memory of skiing in my t-shirt in May in 1996, you know, down the moguls at Boyne Mountain with five other people, and it was just, it's one of my favorite ski memories ever, and the fact that they.00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:13.000Stuart Winchester: empowered that and did that. When they lost money, there's no way they didn't lose money doing that. It just speaks a lot to the spirit that still animates that company, even though it's a bigger company now.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.000Stuart Winchester: Number two for you, Matthew.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:31.000Matthew Zabransky: We'll get to this, I'm sure, at the end, but it's cool to see some of that going full circle. I don't want to give too much away. We'll get into that in a second. Number two for me is a pick that I think is going to change a lot this year, specifically because of the new lift alignment, and that's Marquette Mountain.00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:50.000Matthew Zabransky: They have phenomenal terrain up there, they get great snow, and the thing that was always just missing was a little bit of polishing around the edges, and I think they're finally getting to that point now with, uh, you know, a lot of snowmaking investments over the last handful of years. This new chair from Dolphin Meyer, uh, triple gonna run up basically the center of the ski area, and I think it's really gonna change the way that this.00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, previously, it was divided into kind of two almost separate pods. It kind of had this weird split down the middle. It was kind of hard to navigate. But given that this one's gonna go right up to the center there, you're gonna be able to get full top-to-bottom access a lot more easily, be able to access a lot more of the terrain across the port, the entire, you know, trail map off the front side there.00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:23.000Matthew Zabransky: and I think it's 1 of those that like it. This they have the terrain, and there's not many areas in the Midwest that have the terrain. It's usually the other way where it's like, Yeah, okay, we have. You know the infrastructure. We have the location, but we don't have the steeps, or we don't have the trees, or whatever it may be.00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:34.000Matthew Zabransky: It's a Marquette, good city up there in the UP, really the only major city in the UP, but they have a good demographic up there. And I think with the changes that they're gonna see this year with the new lift, it's gonna be really fun to watch.00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:44.000Stuart Winchester: Not only do they have the terrain, they have the snow. I mean, they're another one of those Lake Superior. They don't get quite as much as up in the Keweenaw or Snow River, but they do get a fair amount.00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, yeah.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.000Matthew Zabransky: They do.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:54.000Stuart Winchester: So my number two, I'm kind of going chalk on these last two, so you can probably guess what my number one is. My number two is a very obvious one, and that's Lutzen.00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:53:54.000 --> 00:54:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know, for, for folks who have never been to Lutzen, it, first of all, it has a gondola. Now, now it's more of a transit lift. It goes more sideways than up and down, but it does have, is it eight or 900 feet of vertical? I think 800 and, or you could ski down to, yeah, of lift served vertical. And the.00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.000Matthew Zabransky: It's… yeah.00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: enormous. It's really four separate mountains and it goes in all different directions and they have two six packs and they have that Gandhi, which is fairly new. I think within the last 10 years, they built that to replace their older one. Uh That is one of the best run ski areas in the Midwest. Another one that will stay open into May.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:42.000Stuart Winchester: when they can. Oh, and speaking of views, I mean, the view off of Moose Mountain of Lake Superior just knock you on your ass. It is so good. I really love Lutzen Mountain, which takes us, Matthew, to your number one ski area in the Midwest.00:54:42.000 --> 00:55:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Man, man, this is one, and it's funny ‘cause I'm working on this video right now, and it's a place that every time I leave this ski area or while I'm at this gear, I just have a smile on my face the entire time. It has nothing flashy, but they do everything right, and that's nub knob. I mean, you go to this place and you just…00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: Favorite ski area.00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:17.000Matthew Zabransky: It's just crazy to me that we were working on this video and my editor, Nick, we got to the end of the video and I mentioned like, “Oh, it doesn't have any high-speed lifts, but it almost feels like it does just because of the way that they're aligned and the way the traffic flows and the way that the runs are cut and everything.00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:34.000Matthew Zabransky: It feels like another one that just, you read the stats and you're like, okay, that sounds decent. But then you get on site and you're just like, this is just a really well run ski area. Snowmaking is always top notch. Grooming is amazing. Lifts spin, they don't stop very often. I mean, everything is just really well polished.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:45.000Matthew Zabransky: the core skiing experience, and they really nail it, and again, it's one of those, like, every time I come off the hill there, I'm just like, man, that was a great day of skiing, even if, you know, it's raining outside, I feel like.00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:45.000 --> 00:56:01.000Stuart Winchester: And as a… just to underscore how good of a scary it is, it's right across the street from Boyne Highlands, and it has been, you know, obviously its whole time, but for a scary to succeed, a lot of times, a smaller scary will fail next to a big corporate area, but Nubs has managed to flourish. Matthew, we actually had no crossover, because.00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:51.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:16.000Stuart Winchester: as you can probably guess, is Mount Bohemia, and I'm sure that's probably why you left it off. Uh, Mount Bohemia, for the folks who are not familiar with it, I wrote an article last year, I called it, Mount Bohemia, the scarier the Midwest deserves, because when Mount Bohemia opened in 2000, it.00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:03.000Matthew Zabransky: Hey.00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:31.000Stuart Winchester: And it has 900 feet of vertical. They do not groom. They have no snowmaking. They get 300 inches annually. It's all, almost all, glades. Their glading is some of the best I've ever seen anywhere, because there's a lot of underbrush in Michigan.00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:48.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the place is an absolute riot. Talk about culture. You get on the ground and you're like, oh, what's here? They don't even have a proper base lodge. It's, it's all these yurts and then they have this giant complex of hot tubs for some reason that, that everyone's always in there drinking beer and.00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:55.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is just… it's great! It's… it's… there's nothing else like it anywhere in North America, where there's just…00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:12.000Stuart Winchester: that much just free skiing available off of a lift, and Lonnie, the owner, has been on a couple times, and I cannot say enough good things about Nubs Knob, including… and I'll let people do their own research on this, but their season pass is $117, or $99 for… you don't want Fridays and Saturdays, and you get all kinds of reciprocals with it, so…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:16.000Stuart Winchester: It's not a bad multi-mountain pass on its own. So…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:30.000Matthew Zabransky: I was so. I was so nervous the 1st so I went to Bohemia last year for the 1st time ever, and I it has been on my list forever, and I keep like I want to hit it right, because I don't want to like. Just go there and not be able to ski everything. And the entire time I've been super fortunate to see a lot of amazing places in in North.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:49.000Matthew Zabransky: And I was super nervous it was not going to live up to the hype, because I was like, this place is hyped up so much, there is no way that it is going to live up to the hype, and it absolutely did. It's one of the most unique scary areas that you'll ever go to, the operations, the bus system, the hot tub. Nothing makes sense there, but it all does in a weird way. It's an absolute riot.00:57:49.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: I couldn't have said any better. I always tell people, if you ski one place in the Midwest in your life, make it Mount Bohemia. All right, now, Matthew, what I want you to leave us with today is… I imagine, maybe deliberately, you didn't mention any of these ski areas, but one of the…00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:15.000Stuart Winchester: things that you do an awesome job with every year is covering the race to open in the Midwest. So, so tell us about the race to open. Who's involved?00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.000Stuart Winchester: When it generally takes place and how you cover it.00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:35.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, so the race to open is a pretty big deal across the Midwest. It was something that before I started this website and YouTube channel, I did not really realize a lot, but the Midwest is always usually fighting for one of the first areas to open in the entire country on occasion. It really just depends on the weather.00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:52.000Matthew Zabransky: But what

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast supports bears, quadrangles, and liberal interpretations of The Iliad. Sign up for the free or paid newsletter to get updates on none of these things. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Monday, Sept. 14.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 10th, 2026, and we have some big, big news in Ski World today.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: So one of the things that I focused on since launching the storm in 2019 is the rapid.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: Exponential growth in US based multi mountain ski passes and one of the biggest icon pass today released five new partners for the 2026 to 27 season. So I'm gonna break those down for you.00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: I am going to talk a little bit more about IndyPass and some of their partner shuffles. Then we are going to be joined by IndyPass owner, Eric Mogenson, who will give us a breakdown on all things happening with Indy, Black Mountain, and Entebeni Systems.00:06:46.000 --> 00:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: reader reaction, but I want to jump right into Icon Pass. Icon hits us today with, as I said, 5 new ski areas, 3 are full partners, and those… which means 7 days on the Icon Pass.00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: 5 days on the Icon Base Pass. All 3 are in Asia.00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:13.000Stuart Winchester: The first is Matarau, Japan. That will be ICON's 10th ski resort in Japan.00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:28.000Stuart Winchester: And then, Icon, last year, was the first U.S.-based pass to add a ski area in China, and Icon adds two more today, though they're nowhere near the ski area that it added last year. They are sort of close.00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:47.000Stuart Winchester: to each other. So, we're gonna break those down first, and then ICON added two mountains to its two-day tier, uh, which it calls Bonus Mountains, which ICON insists are not ICON Pass members, uh, but I insist they are, because you can access them with your ICON Pass. Therefore, they are on.00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: the Icon Pass, no matter what Altera tells us. So, let's start with Montreal, Japan, and if you're on…00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.000Stuart Winchester: The…00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: If you're on the video, I'm going to share my screen here because we're going to do a little visual helping.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so let's take this away. All right, so the first one I want to break down.00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.000Stuart Winchester: is…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:26.000Stuart Winchester: Madarao, Japan, and I've actually written about this ski area before, because they were an IndiePass member, and this is the article that I wrote back in 2023, when Madarao joined IndiePass, and Indie's been a big leader in.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: building out a network in Japan. So, the ski resorts in Japan are interesting. I've not skied there, but I've been there in the summer and ridden the lifts around.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is very much like a mix of…00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: The Cottonwoods and New England. And what I mean by that is, if you're looking at the screen here, you can see the stats on Mattarau. 512 inches of average annual snowfall.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:12.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but not a lot of vert, 1,444 feet, and as you can see from the trail map, if you're looking here, it's not a big trail footprint. So, what I mean when I say Cottonwoods is the snowfall, and when I say…00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.000Stuart Winchester: New England, I mean the size. They tend to be not huge vert, sort of compact. If they do have a lot of vert, like the Jacuba Valley ski resorts that are on Vail, they tend to go, uh, kind of straight up and be side by side. You don't have a lot of the mega resorts as you would have.00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:40.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, or especially in Europe. So, it's good that the passes are all building density in Japan, because the ski areas are not…00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: This is not a place that you would go to necessarily.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:02.000Stuart Winchester: like Vail Mountain and spend a week, or like Whistler. Another thing I want to note about Japan, you can see here that Matarau has some glade zones marked. In a lot of cases, skiing off-piste or in the trees, even though that's what Japan is known for, in a lot of cases, my understanding is that that's pretty heavily policed and forbidden.00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: So you really have to research your ski areas before you go over to figure out which ones will actually allow you to go off-piste, which is what most of us want to do, right? If we're coming from North America, we're going there for the big powder. Japan is a little more of an on-piste tradition.00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit more like Europe. So, I…00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:33.000Stuart Winchester: there's… to underscore the scope of what we have now available to us in Japan as U.S.-based pass holders. So, with the addition of Madarao today.00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: Now, 53 ski areas in Japan have joined the Epic, Icon, Indy, or Mountain Collective Passes. And I actually, I want to show you something I have that's really cool. So, I have this gigantic chart, and it's kind of…00:10:49.000 --> 00:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: it's kind of hard to navigate, but I'm slowly making it a little bit better. And so this is a chart that's variously called a bunch of different things. Right now, I'm calling it the Encyclopedia Britannica. Sometimes it's been the Passmaster.00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:17.000Stuart Winchester: 5,000. And I just kind of change the name whenever I want, but the link is always the same. And what I've… it's a really slow Google Sheet, and I definitely need a better platform, but if you go, there's all these tabs.00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: Down at the bottom, and again, this is where it's nice to have the video, so you can see what I'm showing you here. So I have all these tabs. One of the tabs is all MegaPass ski areas. So I have this divided up, and these are just little tables that pivot off the main table, so all the stats are up to date.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000Stuart Winchester: So first, I have this…00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: chart here with all ski areas that are on any U.S.-based pass, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second.00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Then I have…00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:59.000Stuart Winchester: all U.S. ski areas, then I have New England, I have Japan, so let's pause on Japan for a moment. 53 ski areas, 11 Epic, 10 Icon, 32 Indy, 1 Mountain Collective. You can see all the stats down here. Again, not big.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: skiable acre footprints, and really, Japan measures things differently than North America. They tend to measure snowpack rather than inches of snowfall. I did find a good average annual snowfall chart on Powderhounds, which is a great site that I'll talk more about.00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: for international research of ski areas. But if you see these acreage totals, you know, there's really nothing much.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:35.000Stuart Winchester: Here's Niseko United, it's 2,100 acres, that's 5 ski resorts combined, right next to each other. Rasutsu is, uh, is 2,000, but most of these are under…00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: 500, so you really prepare yourself for that. It's one place, I think, Japan, where it would help to get a guide. Everything tends to be pretty cheap once you get on the ground. In Japan, the lift tickets are nothing, so having someone to show you around and show you where you can go under the ropes.00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:57.000Stuart Winchester: is a good idea. And, you know, I want to jump ahead to reader feedback for a moment. So I had…00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: this comment from Allison Wood. She said, I look forward to seeing your future efforts. I know there's enough in American skiing to discuss, but I'd be curious if you would further discuss European Alps destinations. It seems to be growing in popularity due to competitive pricing versus U.S.00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:28.000Stuart Winchester: Western resorts. A week at Big Sky appears to be the same price as a week in Switzerland for those in the Eastern USA. The answer is absolutely yes. I do want to cover the Alps and Japan and all of these international destinations more.00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: I don't have the personal on-the-ground knowledge base with those ski areas that I do with the U.S. ski areas, so I'm reaching out to my contacts in Europe, in Japan, who know these resorts intimately, and I'm gonna bring them on the show to try to help us make sense, because if you go back.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: We go back to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a second.00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.000Stuart Winchester: You'll see that…00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: The, uh… if I can get to it…00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so Japan has 53 ski areas, Canada has another 55, and most of us can sort those out easily enough. The harder ones is Europe. I mean, Europe, there's 61 ski areas, and sometimes a ski area in Europe is, you know.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: 10 ski areas that put together are as big as all the ski areas in Utah. So I really need some help to break those down. But that's the great thing about this new format is that it will allow me to bring in more voices more frequently since there's more frequent shows. All right.00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: Icon also today added two ski areas in China, and the best site to just get the basics of any ski area in the world is, I've found, skiresort.com. They have a profile of every ski area. They tend to keep it up to date. I don't know who runs the site.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: I would like to connect with them at some point, but this is really my go-to for… so this is Betahu, I'm sure I'm pronouncing that wrong, one of the ski areas that ICON added in China, and they have all the basic information, the elevation, which is not high, it's all in meters, obviously, out of the U.S.00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what I really like is the lift breakdown and the trail map. So, the… the thing about the ski areas in China.00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: is just like everything else in China, they're pretty much brand new. I read this really interesting.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: quote in the New York Times several years ago, and the notion.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: was basically China…00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:31.000Stuart Winchester: stayed pretty much in the 19th century for all of the 20th century, and then it got to the 21st century in about 10 years. So, you go there, there's high-speed rail, everything's new, there's new buildings. The ski resorts are new as well, and you can see this in their lift fleet. I mean, this…00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.000Stuart Winchester: You know, they have a…00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: six eight-person gondolas, one six-person gondola, two high-speed six-packs, three high-speed detached quads, no fixed grip lifts at all, and then you take a look at the trail map, and again, this is probably a little more like Japan, where these are.00:15:49.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit smaller ski areas than what we're used to, uh, as far as the Mountain West. But, you know, it's all very well interconnected. I would expect a lot of on-piste skiing. You know, with a… with a immature ski culture, I wouldn't expect a lot of glade stuff.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: to be developed. Kind of talking on my rear end, to be honest, because I've not skied in China or even been to China, but these are my perceptions with the different ski cultures I know. I'll try to track down someone who knows better. Here's the other Icon Pass resort, Lake Songwa Resort, and I want to make…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:30.000Stuart Winchester: that we kind of have an Aspen-Crested Butte situation going on here, so Sangua and, uh, this other one they added, uh…00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:49.000Stuart Winchester: Beidou, there, as you can see on this Google map, they're 24 miles apart in the mountains, but it looks like about a 4-hour drive, so there's not really a road through the city. It's the same kind of deal with Aspen and Crested Butte, where they're pretty close, but it's a long drive around. These are seasonal roads that Google doesn't know about, so it's about a 5-hour drive in the winter.00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: I believe. So…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: We have these, and then, if you want to go to China to experience skiing, Icon gives you the means to do so. And then, Icon added…00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: to their 2-day tier, which again, they're saying is not IconPass. I want to talk about the 2-day tier a little bit in general. So, Icon started this 2-day tier.00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:23.000Stuart Winchester: last year, and I think what they were trying to do is mirror what Vail did.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:37.000Stuart Winchester: with its feeder ski areas and all these little places that are bought all over the country, Mount Brighton in Michigan, and Afton Alps in Minnesota, and Wilmot in Wisconsin, and all the resorts around Cleveland.00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: and you know, Alpine Valley. And then there's the names escaping me. Boston Mills, Brandywine. I just skied there and did a write-up on it. So so yeah, they're.00:17:49.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: Vail bought up all these ski areas. Well, Icon, instead of doing that and buying, has added two days only on the full Icon Pass, which is currently $1,449, uh, two days to 11 different ski areas around the country.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: It's been growing that list. Silver Star was one last year, and it converted to full Icon, but right now, if you're on the screen share, you can see the 11 that are currently on the Icon Pass two-day roster. So we…00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000Stuart Winchester: had today the additions of Cabarfay Peaks in Michigan.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: In Wyoming, we had snowy range. So Caberfay Peaks is actually, it's an awesome ski area. It's one of my favorite ski areas. I grew up about an hour and 15 minutes from there.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000Stuart Winchester: And with Cabot Fay, it…00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:55.000Stuart Winchester: It's a really fun place. They're constantly building it up. And what the cabaret you see today is very different than the cabaret that existed a long time ago. It basically used to be a two mile sprawl of rope tows and starting in the 1980s.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the families that owned it dug up from the bottom here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: and added to the top. So they went from a couple hundred vertical feet to 485 vertical feet, and it continued to…00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:18.000Stuart Winchester: expand, and they have another expansion in the works over here on Green Mountain. Should be coming 27-28, and I'm gonna have Tim and Pete Meyer from Calgary Fay Peaks on next week to talk about that a little more.00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.000Stuart Winchester: And then we have…00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's Snowy Range, Wyoming, and Snowy Range might seem like a little bit of a weird one, but Snowy Range is actually very logical. They've had a long-standing relationship that's in southern Wyoming. It's not, it's only a couple hours from Steamboat. They have a long-standing relationship with Steamboat.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:51.000Stuart Winchester: to a snowy range season pass for 300 and some dollars this year. They changed that to half off in a 3 day icon session pass, which is good at Steamboat and several other mountains. And now, if you have a full icon, you would also get 2 more days at Steamboat.00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, or you would actually get 2 days at Snowy Range.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: if you were, you know, wanted to escape the crowds at Steamboat one day. So, we are gonna…00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Come back to…00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass in a moment. Actually, I have one more IndyPass update, then I'm gonna go to Eric. So, Mission Ridge and Blacktail in Washington have left IndyPass.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Hold on, let me just…00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: So Eric, I'll be right there.00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: We'll get to Mission to Blacktail in a minute. I'm gonna bring Eric in.00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I'm going to stop my screen share.00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Eric?00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000Erik Mogensen: What's up, man?00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: How you doing? Joining us now is the director of IndyPass, the founder of Entebeni Systems, and the operator of Black Mountain, New Hampshire. Eric Mogenson is a good friend of the storm, and he joins us now from where? Where are you, Eric?00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:05.000Erik Mogensen: I am, uh, calling in from Black Mountain, New Hampshire, our new home, and I'm up at the Alpine Cabin.00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:18.000Stuart Winchester: I want to start on the Alpine Cabin. Tell us what the Alpine Cabin was when you arrived at Black Mountain and what it has turned into from what it is and from a revenue standpoint.00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.000Erik Mogensen: Yep.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:34.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, so, um, I spend the first 8 to 10 hours of my day working with our engineering and product teams, and most of it is in front of a computer or on the phone, but by 5 PM I try to be up here on the mountain every.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:52.000Erik Mogensen: night. Like, doing trail work, on the excavator, snowmaking, lift work. But I keep a desk up here in the summer. Couldn't keep a desk here in the winter. Um, but I do keep a desk up here so that when I have an idea, or I want to come write something down, or I want to watch a YouTube video, or do something, this place is super productive for me.00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:11.000Erik Mogensen: It's like my peaceful, happy place in the summer. In the winter, there is nothing peaceful about this place. This, this place rages, uh, European style. So, when we took over Black Mountain, the Alpine cabin, the credit card receipts from the Alpine cabin the year before.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:22.000Erik Mogensen: were $38,000, uh, for the season in sales. Um, and the year after, our first year that we took it over, it was over $300,000.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.000Erik Mogensen: Um, and then our second year, it was over $600,000, and most of that comes down to champagne.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:38.000Erik Mogensen: But don't look at champagne as something you drink. Champagne is something that you use to celebrate. And so I think.00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:50.000Erik Mogensen: The long-winded answer to your question is, is the Alpine cabin is truly a place to celebrate the sport and culture of skiing, and people are definitely holding on to that.00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:03.000Stuart Winchester: It's an amazing space, and if folks aren't familiar with Black Mountain, that's the main double chair to the summit right behind you, and it goes right over the alpine cabin. It's a party scene, and it's a lot of fun.00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Erik Mogensen: Oh, yeah.00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Going from $38,000 to $600,000, 20X in revenue, I mean, Eric, that's the kind of revenue stream that could change the path of a lot of small ski areas. Is that replicable, do you think, at some of these smaller family-owned ski areas around the country that.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: are really tied to old revenue models and just need a little spark.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I don't know if you can scale the champagne necessarily, but you can definitely scale.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:51.000Erik Mogensen: the focus on the culture of skiing. And I think that's really what the independents do so well, is that, you know, the wood fireplaces smell authentic, the people are very authentic, the ski trails are authentic, they're weird, they're quirky, the lifts are slow, right?00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:06.000Erik Mogensen: Those a lot of people look at those things. We've been programed as skiers to see those things as liabilities. They're actually our biggest assets. And so, yeah, the Alpine, you know, the Alpine cabin was a little 200 square foot patrol shack.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000Erik Mogensen: that sold some, you know, beer and hot dogs.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:21.000Erik Mogensen: But we never looked at that as a liability. We never looked at that as, hey, we need to go build a 20,000 square foot mid-mountain lodge, take on a ton of debt.00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:32.000Erik Mogensen: Um, we really looked at it as an opportunity, and I think every single small ski area has that exact same opportunity to focus on the authenticity of the product that they deliver.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:48.000Stuart Winchester: There's been a ripple effect, too. I mean, what can you tell us about skier visits before and after you purchased it? Because Black, for background, for people who are not familiar with Black, the reason you own Black is because they announced they were closing on Facebook. They said, we're done. The skier has been open since 1930, whatever.00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: said, we're done, this was 3 years ago, and you said, no. And you tried to find a buyer, looked for a year, uh, and decided to buy it yourself. So, so…00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You took a dying skier, what did the skier visits revenue look like when you got it, and what do they look like today?00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:15.000Erik Mogensen: It was about $700,000, $750,000 in top line revenue when we bought the whole ski area. Yeah, including the $32,000 in hot dogs and beer at this cabin.00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: That's the whole ski area.00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:27.000Erik Mogensen: Um, so it was the entire ski area. I don't quite know what the skier visits were. Um, we know what the ticketed visits were, but I would guesstimate that the skier visits were somewhere between, you know, 10 and 15,000.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:43.000Erik Mogensen: Um, in our second year, we took it to $2.5 million in top line revenue. Um, we've surpassed $5 million, uh, here in our 25th or 26th month. And skier visits, you know, all in, including employees and the whole thing, right about 55,000.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:48.000Erik Mogensen: So it's been a big turnaround. It's been interesting, learned a lot.00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000Erik Mogensen: And.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000Erik Mogensen: I think this is 100% doable by most of the smallest areas on the planet.00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.000Erik Mogensen: You just have to realize that if you want a different and better result, you have to take different and better action.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, you proved me wrong, because I, you know…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:16.000Stuart Winchester: I thought Black had maybe just had its time, because it's surrounded by two Vail Own Mountains and Cranmore, which is a high-speed lift. Sunday River is right down the road. Uh, you have intense competition from Epic.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: and… and Black Mountain is not an especially snowy mountain, like, say, Smuggler's Notch, we'll talk about in a minute. I… I didn't know if… if it had enough aura.00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: But it seems like you've either tapped the aura or created it, and really turned it around, and really given me a lot of hope that a lot of the ski areas that we see around the country, that…00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:45.000Stuart Winchester: Seem to be up against this modernization curve, they can't quite get ahead, might be able to take other routes to get there.00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:00.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, and I think, too, Stu, it's worth noting, like, yeah, I'm proud of what we've done here, but there's a lot of really good operators out there that have done this, too. You know, having grown up in Buffalo, which I'll call, like, the Eastern Midwest of the Midwest.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000Erik Mogensen: Right? There's really well-managed ski areas that focus on the food and beverage, that focus on the authenticity, um, that drive a ton of other revenue.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:23.000Erik Mogensen: Um, that are creative, uh, in that way, and I think we just have to be accepting of those things. We have to be accepting of them, we have to share what works, uh, share what doesn't work, and collaborate, um.00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:29.000Erik Mogensen: And and then we'll be fine. We'll be fine. These little skier is have a huge advantage.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:39.000Erik Mogensen: in the fact that they are… they are run by authentic and passionate people. That… they… they are… they are run…00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:46.000Erik Mogensen: not as a profit center. Um, and yes, they need to be profitable to be sustainable and have reinvestment, right? But…00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.000Erik Mogensen: These little ski areas have such a remarkable advantage over some of the big areas.00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:57.000Erik Mogensen: and and how they're managed and what their direction looks like. We just have to take advantage of it and talk about it more.00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:06.000Stuart Winchester: this is just the beginning of the story, too. All right, let's switch over to Andy Pass, and, you know, my questions around Black, when you were initially taking it over, were…00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:24.000Stuart Winchester: how many retro ski areas does New England have room for in a market? Like, Mad River Glen has crafted its whole image around being this retro ski area. You know, they groom, they make snow up to 2,000 whatever feet, the single chair is a 1940 whatever, but they rebuilt it in 2007, so…00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.000Stuart Winchester: It is a well-maintained place.00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:42.000Stuart Winchester: as sort of like a museum. It's… it's… it's… the facade is old school, and it skis that way, but really, it's… it's been well tended to. Smuggler's Notch is another one of those that feels like 1960s, around 1960s haul lifts, including.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: One of the longest in the country, the Madonna lift. Uh, and I saw black in that same mold and said, okay, how many of these do we have room for? But Smuggs is, at the end of the day, a awesome ski area, and you added it to IndyPass. I mean, how big of a victory is that for New England skiers?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: to now have Smuggs, Jay, Waterville, all these ski areas on the one pass.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000Erik Mogensen: I mean, look, you've got… you've got Smogs, you've got Jay, you've got Bolton, you've got Cannon, you've got Waterville, um.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:28.000Erik Mogensen: we've really leveled the playing field in the East, and it's exactly what we intend to do in other places of the country, and also around the world. Uh, and I think what we're proving here in New England, there's been a lot of focus with IndyPass in New England over the last two years, and a lot of that has to do.00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:44.000Erik Mogensen: With Black Mountain and our move and our things there. But what we're proving we can do here, we are going to replicate in other markets. There's no question in my mind. And I think what we're going to replicate is the fact that you don't have to be epic. You don't have to be iconic.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.000Erik Mogensen: to be a really stable, well-earning business. You can be part of an independent group.00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:09.000Erik Mogensen: and still push and plow forward, and compete. So, you know, and I… look, I don't judge a ski area by its vertical. Don't judge a ski area by how many high-speed lifts it has. I think that's the mistake that we keep getting pulled into in skiing. And our… it's the mistake that we make as well as operators, and we…00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:16.000Erik Mogensen: we pass that mistake on to the consumers, right? Bigger is not better, it's just bigger.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:33.000Erik Mogensen: Faster is not better. It's just faster, right? More lifts. Sure, that sounds great, but you have to pay for those lifts as well. And so that is going to there's that money doesn't just come from the sky that that money is going to be passed on to the consumer.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:41.000Erik Mogensen: And the more and more we continue to do that, the more and more expensive and exclusive skiing's gonna become. So, again, I'll bring it back to…00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:51.000Erik Mogensen: One of the greatest advantages these places have are being small, are having slow lifts, are being independent, are being authentic. And that's exactly what Smugs is.00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:01.000Stuart Winchester: However, SMUGS also has 2,600 feet of vertical, 1,000 acres of skiing, and 322 inches of average snowfall. The numbers do help.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:08.000Erik Mogensen: They do, but I'll leave the numbers to your spreadsheets that I can barely understand at this point.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: The numbers do help, though, it's offline.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Well, that makes two of us and probably everyone else.00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.000Erik Mogensen: Those will speak for themselves.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so having Jay and Smugs on there is an awesome combo. You know, I think that…00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: Indy and Doug before you, when Doug… I know Doug's still heavily involved, but the founder of the Indy Pass, Doug Fish. I think you have done a great job of building these little nodes of skiing.00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:44.000Stuart Winchester: around the country, and now around the world. So the… the donut hole has always kind of been Colorado, Utah, Tahoe, and that's because that's where Epic and Icon logically went. Those are the three biggest ski markets. But I want to talk a little bit first about the Midwest, where.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:59.000Stuart Winchester: Indy built a really nice network, and you have a lot of ski areas in the Midwest. You have… 37. Uh, you've had some big departures this year. Lutzen, Granite Peak, and Snow River, run by Midwest Family Ski Resorts.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:16.000Stuart Winchester: Went over to Icon, and Lutzen is, for the listeners, biggest ski area in Minnesota. It skis like a New England ski area. Granite Peak, you know, lots of high-speed lifts. Charles Skinner really turned that place from a dump into something nice. And the Snow River's on the come up. It's in a nice snow belt in Michigan.00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, you know, how much…00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000Stuart Winchester: Did you see those as drivers of IndyPass sales in the Midwest? And how concerned, if at all, are you that they departed?00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:41.000Erik Mogensen: Well, look, let's… let's talk… I mean, the moose in the room here is that that… that loss sucks for us. Like, there's no way around it. Um, it… it… it's a bummer. It stings. Uh, I really like Charles Skinner. I really like Charlotte. I think they're both.00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:57.000Erik Mogensen: really great operators. They're very, very smart. They're very, very sharp. We had a we had a great call around when we kind of showed them what the revenue was in their last season, and we talked through it, and very, very amicable. I've always relied. Have some great, you know, dinner conversations with Charles.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:12.000Erik Mogensen: And and I think they're great. They they have to make a move. They made a business decision to go to Icon and Icon makes that very, very, very attractive. You know whether or not that initial sales pitch.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:29.000Erik Mogensen: translates into the long-term vision? I don't know. I firmly believe that, you know, Midwest skiers are some of the most authentic and purposeful, you know, skiers on the continent, and they'll figure it out. I think we have lots of options, there's no question.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:38.000Erik Mogensen: But none of them are going to be quite like those Midwest family resorts. And so we'll have to see what happens. It stings, but I don't.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000Erik Mogensen: What I've really learned about Indy is that.00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.000Erik Mogensen: Our our strength is in the diversity of of.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:56.000Erik Mogensen: the resorts that we've put together. It's not on a… it's not on a single one resort, or a single resort operator. Um, so…00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:01.000Erik Mogensen: I hate losing resorts, but I'm never afraid to lose them and/or replace them if necessary.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: So, when they go to ICON, there's a couple different tiers for ICON. So, Midwest family went to the traditional 7-5 tier of 7 on full ICON, 5 on ICON base. Today.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:19.000Stuart Winchester: I kind of announced that Cabaret, a former IndyPass partner that actually just left Indy, was a founding member in 2019.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:32.000Stuart Winchester: left for Icon. That news just broke. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Buck Hill similarly left Indy for Icon today, a couple of years ago. Is that too new to process, or what are your thoughts on Cabra Fact?00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I think it's exactly the same where, you know, we, we, you know, Cabrifay is a great ski area. Um, we're sad to see them go. We, you know, look, they're independent for a reason. They get to make their choice. They've made their choice. They're going to go to Icon. The consumers can make their choice of where they go and where they want to.00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:05.000Erik Mogensen: they want to spend their time and money. You know, we're going to fight as hard as we can to drive as much value for the operators and the consumers as possible. I can tell you, we had some people that had left for that icon two day product that now want to come back because of the payout.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000Erik Mogensen: Or lack thereof. So, look, none of this is static. One thing I can absolutely guarantee everybody on the pass and everyone listening to this is, is this is going to happen every single year forever. You're going to have people come, you're going to have people go. And we're all going to think it's way more consequential.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:33.000Erik Mogensen: than it actually is. The reality is, is that indie sales for the last 7 seasons continue to go like this, and we're directing more and more.00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:39.000Erik Mogensen: revenue, meaningful revenue to these independent resorts. And that's not going to stop.00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. The, uh… another place you have…00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: Good.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:55.000Stuart Winchester: cluster is the Pacific Northwest. Mission Ridge and Blacktail, which are jointly owned, recently announced that they left, and I reached out.00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: to…00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: COO and GM Matt Neubauer, and I just asked him, you know, what's going on, and this was his email, this is a quote.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge's agreement ran through the end of the 25-26 season, and we declined to seek a new one. Being independent means making the calls we think are right for the mountain long term.00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, that's basically echoing what you just said, the mountains will make the right decision. Uh, Blacktail's situation is different. This is a continuation of the email. Uh, they reached out to establish a new agreement before the old one ended and did not get engagement on it. Indy did reach out after passes, went back on sale September 1st, but by then, Blacktail had moved on.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: and was preparing for the season ahead. So that was the rationale that I have for Matt. He didn't want to talk about it further publicly, but that was his on-the-record statement.00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:59.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I, I, you know, look, Stu, I, I think as good as it is for your ratings, you know, I, we're not gonna hang out every, every scary as, you know, laundry and every single conversation. Um, I would disagree with how that was had. I think, I think one of the greatest things about India is we have.00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:09.000Erik Mogensen: 300-plus resorts around the world. One of the hard things about Indy is that we have 300-plus resorts around the world. It's a lot of contracts to manage, it's a lot of things.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:19.000Erik Mogensen: I could, like, tell you from the ski area operating, um, perspective, like, I feel everything's nice and chill all summer, and we're doing really good, and then all of a sudden it's, you know.00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:35.000Erik Mogensen: September 1st, and it's like, wow, we got a lot to do in the next 60 days before we make snow. And I think every single ski area operator runs through that. Uh, and there's a lot going back. Stu, sometimes I have to go look at your spreadsheets to understand who's on the pass.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:52.000Erik Mogensen: That's why we usually give everything to you ahead of time so that you can, like, count them up and do the math and do everything. So it's hard. But I would say, that team at Blacktail is world class. Jesse is and is incredible. We've I've always had a great relationship with Jesse.00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:08.000Erik Mogensen: We'd welcome them on the pass. I don't think that that's changed. And I think that Blacktail and Mission Ridge are two very different ski areas. And I'm really fascinated and hopeful that they figure out a way.00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.000Erik Mogensen: how to make the whole thing work between the two of them.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you still have a really nice set of resorts out there with White Pass, and 49 Degrees North, and Mount Hood Meadows, and Bluewood, and Brundage, and Tamarack. And Tamarack's interesting, because so Tamarack, and I want to clarify this, I've actually gotten a lot of inquiries about this, people emailing me telling me my charts are wrong.00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which… which happens, you know, they're… they're big and… and, uh, unwieldy, so I get things wrong, but that's… they're always a work in progress. But, uh, they're telling me Tamarack's not in the past because they joined Icon today, which… which obviously they did. Uh…00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000Stuart Winchester: So what's going on with Tamarack? Are they on Indy?00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:59.000Erik Mogensen: Tamarack's on Indy, um, you know, we're excited about Tamarack, we've always been excited about Tamarack. Again, Scott, really great operator, um, super smart guy, great ownership group.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:13.000Erik Mogensen: You know, I think we could probably comment on that a little bit further. But you know my job is not to speak for these resorts, Stu. My my job is to support them, and there's a difference between supporting them and speaking for them.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000Erik Mogensen: So, I'll always support them, and what Tamarack decides to do and where they decide to sit is good, but.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000Erik Mogensen: I'm comfortable saying that Tamarack's on Indy.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, in general, you know, when Buck Hill joined the Icon 2 Day last year, you said adios. I think that's what was my understanding from a distance, correct me if I'm wrong. What was different about the Tamarack situation? Why are you making the exception for Tamarack?00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:52.000Erik Mogensen: Look, I think, look, Icon's aggressive. They're aggressive. They're trying to add as many people as they possibly can to that two-day pass. You know, I think that there's a lot of promises on that, and I think they have a very aggressive sales team.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:08.000Erik Mogensen: Which is which is good. They're they're, you know, trying to replicate what Indy has done. So we'll just have to see what happens. But I would say that I would I would say that, you know, I have a I have a good relationship with a couple people over in that organization.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:15.000Erik Mogensen: And I think they're trying to figure out what they're going to do. But there's no question that we're in, you know, pretty intense competition right now.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's…00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:32.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up on that. Let's talk about Snow King, because the Indy Pass, you know, part of the reason the Indy Pass is able to grow so fast, from my point of view, was Doug had this great insight that the ski areas that Epic and Icon were overlooking.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Did have value collected onto a pass, and when you put them all together as a dynamite product.00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:47.000Stuart Winchester: and now I think, as you said, ICON's going for that, and then you have the Snow Pass, and the Snow Pass, uh…00:40:47.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: has signed Snow King as a partner, and that's a long-time Indy Pass partner, and I can read these emails if you'd like, or you can just talk through it yourself on how you see the Snow King.00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000Stuart Winchester: um…00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.000Stuart Winchester: conflict here.00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, look, I wouldn't really say that there is any controversy here. I think Snow King is staying on Indy. Um, you know, Ryan and I never discussed any sort of litigation, and I connected him directly with you so that he could, you know, explain the situation for himself.00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:36.000Erik Mogensen: Look, again, it's not my job to get out in front and speak for these resorts. These are really great resorts with phenomenal and sophisticated operators, and they can speak for themselves. So, what I can do, Stu, is, you know, say, hey, Ryan.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Erik Mogensen: you know, you're on Indy, and you're not on the snow pass, copy you on that email, and then you can read the email to the group.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the email…00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.000Stuart Winchester: from Ryan said.00:41:51.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Stuart, hi Stuart, this is Ryan Stanley, General Manager of Snow King. That is correct, we're going to remain on the Indy Pass this upcoming season and also offer two free tickets to the Snow Pass holders without receiving compensation, meaning Snow King will not receive compensation.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:16.000Stuart Winchester: We are fairly desperate for some skier visits and are working on an offer for free and or $20 tickets to other pass holders as well. You know, I…00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000Stuart Winchester: Ran this…00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000Stuart Winchester: Snow pass and.00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.000Stuart Winchester: I can read this email from Joe Heschen that he sent me today.00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:33.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, he said, Hi Stuart, I'm a bit confused by how this has become so complex. As stated, we have signed a signed agreement with Snow King.00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: While I would like to keep their details confidential, you are welcome to share ours. Our goal with this is not to profit, but rather to gather a group to work together for the betterment of the industry.00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And then, it sounds like Snow King will be working with Indy and Snow Pass this season, which is great news for them. Thank you. Go Hessian. So, from Snow Pass's point of view, Snow King is still on both passes.00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:16.000Erik Mogensen: I don't know, Stu's starting to sound like a big old, you know, fun high school group text message here. I don't, I, you know, I don't know what to tell you. Um, again, I think Ryan's email's pretty clear. I'm not gonna speak for Ryan, not gonna speak for Joe. Um, they're definitely, you know, Snow King is definitely on the Indy Pass. We're definitely gonna pay them, just like we have.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:21.000Erik Mogensen: every year. We're definitely gonna push a lot of visits to them. Um, you know, I'm not…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Erik Mogensen: entirely sure, uh, beyond that. Uh, and, and, you know, Ryan, again, Ryan's a really smart guy. I've enjoyed talking to him. Um, I've spent a…00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:49.000Erik Mogensen: few, you know, longer phone calls, and he is desperate for skier visits, and I get that. He's a small skier area in the shadow of Jackson Hole, and doesn't have a ton of population to pull from. Most of the population that's coming through is destination visits.00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:57.000Erik Mogensen: And he needs more skier visits. We… we want Snow King to get skier visits. We… we… and if Ryan wants to comp…00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:07.000Erik Mogensen: you know, snow pass holders, or icon pass holders, or epic pass holders, then that's fine. I think that's great. But just because Ryan is going to comp.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Erik Mogensen: the Snow Pass doesn't mean that he's on the Snow Pass, and just because Ryan is going to comp Icon Pass holders, that doesn't mean that he's joined the Icon Pass. Um, all I can come down to, again.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:27.000Erik Mogensen: is that Snow King's on the Indy Pass, um, and from our perspective, they're giving some free tickets to some of the other passes.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:35.000Erik Mogensen: Hopefully, that checks everyone's box for early September ski area drama.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: All right, it is an ongoing story. I just have a lot of conflicting information from…00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:56.000Erik Mogensen: What we should do is just, you know, get Uncle Joe on the call, and get Ryan on the call, and you on the call, and we all talk about it, right? Like, I think it's… I don't think it's that complicated, and frankly, it's not that big of a deal.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:12.000Erik Mogensen: And I question the intentions behind making it a big deal. I think that, you know, Snowpass is definitely looking for us to bite into a controversy, and we're just not going to.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:22.000Erik Mogensen: We're just not going to. We… our job is to focus on the independent resorts and make sure that we drive more visits to more independent resorts.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000Erik Mogensen: more often.00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:31.000Erik Mogensen: It's really simple, you know, and I think, I think in general too, Stu, like, you know.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Do you? Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:46.000Erik Mogensen: What I've gotten from a lot of our operators and partners and people in skiing is they're just very confused by this. And again, it might be good for ratings or listeners, but there is no litigation here.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:56.000Erik Mogensen: there is no problem with Snow King. They're a great, valued partner. You know, this comment, you know, an idea around democratizing skiing, right? Like.00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:08.000Erik Mogensen: you know, let's let every resort build their own reciprocal deal with, you know, Jersey Joe's commission-based software pitch, right? That's cute, that sounds nice, but in practice, IndiePass exists for a reason.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.000Erik Mogensen: It's a lot more work for skier is and most importantly.00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:20.000Erik Mogensen: It's much more fragmented and a confusing product for the consumer. A single pass with a single price point.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000Erik Mogensen: And a lot of partners.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:28.000Erik Mogensen: you know, mitigates the patchwork of one-off deals, and that's the whole reason IndyPass exists.00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:37.000Erik Mogensen: More people skiing more often at independent resorts, right? Like, we redirect tens of millions of dollars a year to independent operators.00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.000Erik Mogensen: Arguing that somehow the absence of the IndyPass is better for the industry is nonsensical at best. It would just give Icon and Epic a more…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.000Erik Mogensen: More opportunity to eat our lunch. So…00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000Erik Mogensen: you know, we can… we can dive into all the muddy details all day long, but I don't see any controversy here. We're super excited to have snowpack… I mean…00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.000Erik Mogensen: Snow King.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.000Erik Mogensen: on the Indy Pass. Um, and, you know, maybe you just have to come up with a different color for it on your spreadsheet, like some sort of gradient between the two. Whatever you want to do, we trust you.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Stuart Winchester: Let me zoom out a little and make this a little more conceptual, because you've told me before that IndyPass doesn't make money, and I believe you're still sticking to Doug's original ratio of 15% for admin, which I doubt covers admin. So 85% traditionally was paid out to the resorts, correct?00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:49.000Erik Mogensen: Correct. Oh, yeah. Still the case. Yeah. No, I mean, look, we, we, you know, 85% of every passport just goes back to the independents. And remember, look, we, we take 100% of our money in on credit cards. We pay the ski resorts in check cash. Right. So we're also eating that credit card fee.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.000Stuart Winchester: Is that still it? Okay.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:59.000Erik Mogensen: So now you're down to, you know, 12% in change. Running a pass like this, it's not profitable. We never looked at this as being profitable.00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:10.000Erik Mogensen: I really bought IndyPass because I knew that Doug was going to exit and needed to exit, and I thought some of the other people that would buy the pass.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Erik Mogensen: would view it more as a media company or a marketing opportunity, and less of something that I think is very important for the independents. So…00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:39.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, you know, Snowpass has committed to giving 80% back, um, to the resorts in their first year, and then something else beyond that, right? And the difference between 80% and 5%, right? You know, it sounds like 5%, but if you actually do the math, that's a 25% difference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:49.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, and so we pay every resort the same percentage back of their, you know, top ticket price. We've always done that, um, so…00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.000Erik Mogensen: That's what we do, that's what we've done, that's what worked, and that's what we.00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: So to zoom out to the conceptual level a little bit here, I want to look at…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Snow King's neighbor, Jackson Hole. Okay, so Jackson Hole is on Icon. They're also on Mountain Collective. You've taken a pretty firm stand that Indy.00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:16.000Stuart Winchester: partners should be exclusive with Indy. If you're looking at a ski area like Snow King that is desperate for.00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: for visits.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: why cut that pathway off? Why is it important to make indie exclusive and not say, okay.00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: case by case, if you're, uh, you know, certain resorts, if we don't have an exclusivity agreement with you, like, maybe you want to give, you know, Brundage a higher payout because they're a destination and… and to be exclusive, but maybe some of these other ones, you give them all the tools in the toolbox. What…00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.000Stuart Winchester: Why is that not an option? Or is it an option?00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I just, I think it complicates things, number one. Number two, I just don't find it very equitable. The great thing about IndyPass, look, I get…00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:58.000Erik Mogensen: There's a lot of conversations all the time when we have a larger resort wanting to join, or has joined, or wants to renew about getting a bigger payout.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:08.000Erik Mogensen: What I can tell you for as long as I own and run IndyPass, I'm going to treat every single resort the same. I'm not going to make special side deals.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:14.000Erik Mogensen: That's just what we're going to do. I think it's a mistake to do that.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:20.000Erik Mogensen: Everyone's going to get the same. Everyone's going to be the same. Everyone's going to get the same percentage payout.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.000Stuart Winchester: It.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.000Erik Mogensen: No special deals.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: So let me wrap on that point. So you added Smugs, your New England network is lights out. You know, like I said, Jay, Smugs, Cannon, Waterville, Saddleback, and a bunch of smaller places, including Black Mountain. Doug was concerned when he started the pass.00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: About dilution in the marketplace, and if you put too many ski areas in a market, you would both cannibalize their season pass, and drive down their yield, or their eventual payout.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: you have filled in a lot more density, and when I've asked you about it in the past, you said that's a data-driven decision, so can you break that down for us, and what gives you confidence that adding smugs is not going to take away from.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.000Stuart Winchester: Fulton Valley, or Jay Peak, or Cannon, or Titus.00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:23.000Erik Mogensen: Well, we know exactly how many pass holders we're adding every single year, right? We, we have a unique control over how many passes we sell, right? So we have, we know the data that comes in on one lever and we 100% control the amount.00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:43.000Erik Mogensen: of passes in that lever that we sell. So it's just simple math, right? It isn't even that complex of a spreadsheet. Uh, you wouldn't even have to have it in a spreadsheet. So we need to add enough customers to make sure that we don't over dilute Bolton's payout or those things. And what's remarkable is the data shows us this is, I think now our fourth season.00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:49.000Erik Mogensen: of owning and operating the IndyPass is that we just keep going in the right direction.00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Erik Mogensen: And that's the reality. Like, JPEAK and Bolton's payout, the check that they get from IndyPass and take to the bank to pay their bills and buy more chairlifts and more snowmaking pipe and pay their employees, is only getting bigger and bigger.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.000Erik Mogensen: With smugs on the pass. And again, I cannot.00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:23.000Erik Mogensen: reiterate enough how sophisticated of an operator these guys are. Like, the DeLauriers are smart. They see the numbers, you know? Christian Knapp at PGRI, he sees the numbers. Steve Wright, these are smart guys. John Schaefer, the…00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:27.000Erik Mogensen: Really smart. You know, if they figure it out.00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.000Erik Mogensen: I think that that itself.00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jay has been, uh, has recommitted to Indy several times, uh, through one-year contracts. All right, Eric, IndyPass is still on sale?00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, 80 Pass is on sale right now, yes. I think what we've announced is we've said tomorrow's the day. I think we could go into midday Saturday. Um, it's… it's hard to tell, right? We look at a couple numbers, we look at people that have put things in their cart, and what the potential conversion rate is, and where things go, and…00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:01.000Erik Mogensen: the geography around them. We definitely have a very firm ceiling on what we're gonna sell.00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:10.000Erik Mogensen: When we're going to sell that through, that's the hard part. But yeah, we've identified that tomorrow's the day.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: And this will be the end of 26-27 IndyPass sales guaranteed, or is there a chance for a flash December sale or something?00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:30.000Erik Mogensen: There is never a guarantee of anything in this thing. We are talking to some pretty major additions as well that I think would be meaningful, and we'll have to decide if that's a this year thing or a next year thing with them.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:46.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, you've already added over 40 new partners. India has more partners than Epic, Icon, Mountain Collective, Snowpass, and Mountain Collective Capital's Powerpass combined around the world. So you're saying we should expect or could expect more partners?00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Erik Mogensen: Alright.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.000Stuart Winchester: In advance of the 26-27 winter?00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:02.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that there will definitely be some more. And I think, Stu, it's actually about 60 new additions. And I know you don't like to count the cross-country ski areas, but we should maybe find a separate tab for them on the spreadsheet.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:12.000Erik Mogensen: Every ski area matters to us here, whether it's cross country or downhill or big or small. I think that's what makes us different.00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I didn't start stop counting them out of malice. I stopped because I couldn't really understand them, and the maps kind of looked like a brain scan, and some would leave, and it was just a lot. I was already trying to track too much.00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: I will take that piece of advice, though, and I will see if I can find a place where they make sense. Eric, really appreciate everything today, appreciate everything you're doing with Indy and Black Mountain, and look forward to catching up with you again really soon.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah. Thanks so much, Stu. Keep those spreadsheets going, dude.00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright.00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.000Stuart Winchester: That's all I do.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I know. See ya.00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000Erik Mogensen: Bye.00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Eric Mogensen, director of IndyPass, owner of Black Mountain, responding to some of the questions.00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: initial conversation I had with Joe Heschen the other day. So, uh, that's great. We have no more clarity on Snow King, and this episode went a little off the rails, because I need to… there's gonna be a lot of experimentation here, guys.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the opening take, I'm realizing, I don't know if I should be recording that before the guest. I think maybe I need to start with the guest, because otherwise, I end up having to cut myself short. So…00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get to some reader reaction.00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000Stuart Winchester: To close us out today.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.000Stuart Winchester: The first comes from…00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: Matt Hart.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: He said, really, this is in reaction to Brian Norton's interview yesterday about Loon Mountain's expansion. Matt Hart, really good, loved Brian's description of the expansion and how they will make it work from an operations point of view.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.000Stuart Winchester: Catcher's mitt for snow, love it.00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: And then, and then Matt asks, did he give you grief for calling the Timbertown expansion that little one LOL? I, no, he didn't, but, but it is, I mean, it was a 30 acre expansion on a huge ski area. So, uh, I don't know, maybe, I think they, uh.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I'm always the tourist, so anytime I'm asking these guys anything, they… I think that it sounds a little ridiculous, because they live it every day of their life. It would be like them asking me a question about my cats, you know, it's something that I'm around every day.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:46.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is a comment from Robert, a paid subscriber, which is the way you can interact with the show is to be a paid subscriber to the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:56:46.000 --> 00:57:00.000Stuart Winchester: Robert says, again, of the Brian Norton pod yesterday, great second effort. Are you planning to stick to a drop time of about 4 p.m. Eastern time? What is your anticipated schedule? Daily, four days a week, three?00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:07.000Stuart Winchester: 4pm drop makes for a nice way to wrap up the day, at least for those in a compatible time zone.00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: And then Brian Bench, paid subscriber, says, ditto on sharing the anticipated schedule. We humans are creatures of habit, and so would be great to know when we can generally expect these to land. Excited for your chat with Eric today. Well…00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000Stuart Winchester: Brian.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have an amazing guest.00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: scheduled for…00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:46.000Stuart Winchester: Sep

View This Week's Show NotesJuliet and I have been saying yes to everything this fall. We're calling it the Fall Travel Junket, and it's stacked with events from Phoenix to Vail to Antarctica. Follow our Instagram or subscribe to The Ambush for details. And spoiler: you can join us in ANTARCTICA! For real!We've been watching the new season of Ted Lasso, which is putting women's sports on mainstream television in a way that's hard to ignore. We get into what that means culturally, including who we'd want to see make a cameo.Private equity is moving into youth sports with the "stay-to-play" model and it's terrible for players and parents. We dig into that, the "pay-to-play" model, what's happening at the policy level, and what parents can actually do.We close with two Instagram trends that gave us pause: men in the longevity space calling facelifts "aesthetic wellness," and a dating site for people who didn't get the COVID vaccine.New episodes of The Ready State Podcast drop every Thursday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a thing!What You'll Learn in This EpisodeWhy Ted Lasso's new season is putting women's sports inequities on mainstream displayWhat the WNBA surge and Copa 71 reveal about the growing appetite for women's sportsHow private equity operates in youth sports through the stay-to-play modelWhat New York Magazine and the Denver Post found when they investigated the pay-to-play childhoodWhat parents can actually do right now, from supporting Senator Murphy's bill to keeping rec leagues aliveWhy calling facelifts "aesthetic wellness" is a branding problem worth namingWhat "Unjected" is, and what it says about the stranger corners of wellness cultureKey Highlights:(0:00) Welcome back + Goings on in Starrett Land: our empty nest and the Fall Travel Junket(02:10) PT Biz Mastermind and Brett Bartholomew's Non-Superficial Conference(02:46) The Assembly in Vail, Eudaimonia, and the Antarctica expedition(04:46) Ted Lasso's new season and the women's sports moment(06:15) WNBA, Copa 71, and cultural momentum toward the 2027 Women's World Cup(09:54) Ted Lasso cameo wishlist: Emma Hayes and Megan Rapinoe(12:45) Private equity in youth sports: NYMag and Denver Post investigations(13:56) The stay-to-play model and Senator Murphy's bill(17:24) Free play, skate culture, and why it matters(20:15) What parents can do: rec leagues, Positive Coaching Alliance, taking action(22:30) "Aesthetic wellness": men calling cosmetic procedures a health practice(27:48) Unjected: the dating site for the unvaccinated(29:52) Outro

Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment below - I'll respond to some in the next episode. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism./:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:02.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! It is September 8th, 2026, and if you are a Storm regular, you are probably wondering what in the heck is going on here.00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:09.000Stuart Winchester: Today, we are launching an all-new format for the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:22.000Stuart Winchester: It is shorter, it is news-focused, it will be more frequent, and it will publish the same day that I record it in just about every instance.00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.000Stuart Winchester: It's gonna have a lot of different elements. Uh, takes just…00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.000Stuart Winchester: on whatever's happening in the news.00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, let's scrap that and let's start again.00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, starting from the top.00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000Stuart Winchester: 3.00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: Q.00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.000Stuart Winchester: One.00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:59.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 8th, 2026, and I would like to welcome you all to a brand new version of the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, the long-form podcast…00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:09.000Stuart Winchester: has been the default of the Storm Skiing Podcast since I launched in 2019.00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.000Stuart Winchester: Very proud of the Storm Skiing podcast.00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.000Stuart Winchester: We're at episode 227.00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have interviewed the leaders of nearly every large ski area in America, and the leaders of most of the large ski companies in America.00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:29.000Stuart Winchester: But something started to feel a little bit off.00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:35.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I started to think about the kind of podcasts that I consume.00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:44.000Stuart Winchester: And those are mostly, frankly, around Michigan football, uh, which is my other obsession besides ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-s.00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:02.000Stuart Winchester: tend to be much more news-focused. They tend to be much shorter than the Storm Skiing Podcast. They tend to publish the same day that they record them, and they tend to break down current events. For example, I just went to a Michigan football game.00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:21.000Stuart Winchester: on Saturday in Ann Arbor. If you're even remotely a sports fan, you probably saw the controversial ending to that game when Michigan got an extra second added on, and Bryce Underwood, the quarterback, tossed a Hail Mary to win the game when JJ Buchanan, our transfer receiver, came down with the ball.00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:36.000Stuart Winchester: That's never happened in the history of Michigan football, to have a Hail Mary ending that Michigan wins. So, on the way home, it's a 10-hour drive back to New York, my wife and I listened to all the different Michigan podcasts that were breaking down that moment. And I realized that…00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: as much as I like the Storm Skiing Podcast, and as much as a lot of other people like it, I was not really making the kind of podcast that I actually listen to. And that's a problem, because in our current media environment, people have a lot of choice.00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.000Stuart Winchester: They have a lot of of.00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:13.000Stuart Winchester: different things they can give their attention to, and it's hard to get and keep their attention. So, I want to say right off, I am not killing the long-form storm skiing podcast. It will not end with episode 227. In fact, I have about 5 or 6 in the can that I've been sitting on.00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:30.000Stuart Winchester: for this news, and I will release those soon, and my thanks to the folks who participated in those podcasts for their everlasting patience as I got this together. So, I'm still gonna make the Storm Skiing Podcast. The frequency will go from about 45 a year at its peak.00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: It's probably about a dozen a year or so, and sometimes there will just be a time when the long form is the more appropriate form for telling the story of a mountain. If I have someone new on, for example, so for example, I've never had.00:05:47.000 --> 00:06:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the GM or owner of Sierra at Tahoe in California, an important mountain on the podcast. Never had Wolf Creek on the podcast, never had Mount Baker. If I were to get one of those folks, I would want to do a long form, tell the story of the ski area. But it's not always necessary to.00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: Tell the entire story of the ski area and its history and its culture when you just want to talk about a new lift or you just want to talk about the fact that it joined a new pass. So this shorter podcast will be more frequent.00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: It will have different segments, segments with takes when I just talk about what's going on. It will still have interviews, much shorter interviews. Today we have an interview with an awesome guest, Snow Partner CEO Joe Heschen, one of the smartest guys in skiing.00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: But before, Joe and I went on for two hours. This time, we'll be able to condense it down. And then at the end of each episode, my intent.00:06:45.000 --> 00:07:02.000Stuart Winchester: and hope is to have reader interaction, and this will be a feature available only to paid supporters of the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, and you can upgrade to a paid subscription at stormskiing.com anytime. The podcast will be for everyone, as it's always been.00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:18.000Stuart Winchester: But only paid subscribers will be able to interact with the podcast. And the way that they will be able to do that is that they will be able to write a comment on the article that accompanies the newsletter on stormskiing.com.00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: And the next day, I will read some of those comments and react to them as appropriate. And I'll talk a little bit more about that later and why I'm doing it that way. But for now, I want to assure you.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: This podcast is going to come to you the same way your podcasts always have. Now, there is a video version. You can watch that on YouTube, will be our primary channel, as well as Substack, which is where the newsletter is published. There will always, always, always be an audio version.00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: And it will always come to the same places that you have always gotten the podcast. If that's Apple, if that's Spotify, there's some that I don't even know.00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: how the podcast got on there, or why it's on there. There's an RSS feed that spits this out from Substack. That will not change. The storm will be… when you go looking for it, you're going to find the storm.00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: This is something I'm super excited about because I think it will allow me to have a lot more guests a lot more often.00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: there are so many great minds in skiing right now, and I feel like there's a lot of negative sentiment around skiing and the way it's evolving. There's a lot of talk of a duopoly.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.000Stuart Winchester: But from my point of view.00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: there's not a duopoly in a way that is dominating all consumer choice. And the reason I have that point of view is I'm having conversations every single day with smart people.00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:10.000Stuart Winchester: thinking far ahead and doing great things to change skiing in ways that make skiing better, that make skiing access better. People like Joe Hesham, my guest today, people like Eric Mogenson, who runs the Indy Pass, people like John Schaefer, who runs a handful of mountains.00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:28.000Stuart Winchester: in the East, people like Rick Schmitz, who runs three ski areas in the Midwest. Small ski area operators like Tim Meyer at Caber Fay in Michigan, who we'll talk about a little bit later. So, I'm talking to these people all the time, and I'm seeing the independent ski areas are really, for the most part, doing fine. I'm seeing.00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Huge investment. I'm seeing huge innovation and.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: Because of the frequency of the podcast, and because of the laborious nature of turning interviews into written content.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: I don't think that I'm getting that to you in the way that I would like, in, in, in the way that you deserve. I want you to be part of this conversation. I want you to see why I'm so optimistic about skiing right now. I want you to know why I feel that skiing is in its best.00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:05.000Stuart Winchester: place, historically, that it has ever been, at least in America.00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:10.000Stuart Winchester: Now, it certainly has problems, and we will get into those as well.00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: I don't answer to anyone. I don't answer to the operators. I don't have a boss. I answer to my subscribers, and that's it. The only thing I care about is the truth.00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:28.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and my optimism does not come from any desire to have access or anything else. My… my…00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000Stuart Winchester: My content and my commitment to the truth.00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:50.000Stuart Winchester: comes from wanting to deliver a great journalistic product. Uh, and there's gonna be opinion and analysis. You're not always going to agree with what I say, and that's good! I wanna remind people that. That's good. If you agree with everything I say, I have no value. I can tell you that all of my guests.00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.000Stuart Winchester: disagree with things I say, but the reason they keep coming back.00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:03.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I hope they will keep coming back is because I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to work within the bounds of the truth, and I'm not…00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Jumping to these huge accusatory.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:25.000Stuart Winchester: narratives that we see so often with the Mega Passes and with the big consolidators, Vale and Altera. So, I want to give a different perspective, I want to give it more frequently. The newsletter, one more point, the newsletter will stay the same. There will always be written content.00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000Stuart Winchester: I am still a writer with a podcast, not a podcaster with a newsletter, though I kind of have to admit at this point that I am.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: a podcaster, even though that sounds… I don't know, it sounds a little… pretentious, or juvenile, or uh… like I'm…00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:58.000Stuart Winchester: you know, doing this as a side hustle while I drive for Uber, but… but no, this is my full-time job. The Storm is and has been my full-time job for a couple of years. Now, the reason I want to switch to a news-based podcast is for days like today, because today we have.00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000Stuart Winchester: Huge news.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.000Stuart Winchester: One of my favorite ski areas.00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.000Stuart Winchester: One of the best ski areas in the eastern United States.00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, depending on your point of view, maybe one of the best ski areas in the United States.00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:20.000Stuart Winchester: is joining a Malta Mountain Pass for the first time.00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:27.000Stuart Winchester: That is Smuggler's Notch, Vermont. Smuggs is an incredible place.00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:40.000Stuart Winchester: For a lot of reasons. Number one, if you don't live in the East, and you're under the impression that the East is an ice ball, and the vertical drops are short, and the mountains are small.00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:56.000Stuart Winchester: You're wrong. You're just wrong. And there is a snow. There's plenty of big mountains in the east. First of all, there's plenty of good snow pockets in the east. One of the best snow pockets is in northern Vermont, and you have a line of resorts.00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:12.000Stuart Winchester: We call it the spine of the Green Mountains. Starts at Killington Pico, goes up to Sugarbush, which is in Alterra Mountain. Right next door is Mad River Glen, the famous Indy with the single chair. North of that is Bolton Valley, which is on Indy Pass. North of that is Stowe, which is owned by V.00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: On the backside of Stowe is Smuggler's Notch, and then north of that is Jay Peak. Smuggler's Notch joins IndyPass today, and here are the stats.00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:39.000Stuart Winchester: It is a 2610 foot vertical drop that is the fourth tallest in the east. It has one smug says 1060 skiable acres that they claim there's actually more in the woods. If you count the back bowls and some of the secret stashes.00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:54.000Stuart Winchester: Off of the Sterling lift. So that makes it the fourth largest ski area in the east. It is the second snowiest ski area in the east after Jay Peak, which is also an IndyPass partner with 322in of snowfall.00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:10.000Stuart Winchester: On average per winter. Yes, that's a lot. That's those are Vail numbers. Those are Colorado numbers. No, it's not Cottonwoods, but it's deep enough that those ski areas almost always have tree skiing from the beginning.00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:22.000Stuart Winchester: from around Christmas through the end of the season. I've skied Glades at Stowe in April many times. I've done the same at Jay Peak. So, the snow coverage really.00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: comes and it really falls. Mount Mansfield, which is where Stowe is, right next to Smuggs, is the tallest mountain in Vermont, and they have a snow stake there that consistently builds up to around 60 inches or so for the season. So, Smuggs joins Indy Pass.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: today. It is the… and, and, and, and… No Blackouts on Indie Bass Pass, which goes on sale today to the general public, or actually maybe tomorrow it goes on sale, for… $419.00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.000Stuart Winchester: The ND…00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is 469. So I'll give you a few stats here. So Indy with adding smugs, that is the 43rd Alpine lift serve ski area that Indy has added for the 2026 to 2027.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: Winter.00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:30.000Stuart Winchester: That gives them a total. Now, my totals are going to be a little different than Indy's because they're counting cross-country ski areas. And I'm leaving those off. And I also count sometimes two ski areas, as one when they're when they're separate entities. But but they share days.00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy now has 256 ski areas, lift-served alpine downhill ski areas, which get two days each. So they have more than you could possibly use. That includes 148 ski areas in the United States.00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:57.000Stuart Winchester: 32 in Canada, 39 in Europe, and 32 in Japan. You can ski 30% of all ski areas in America on Indy.00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:14.000Stuart Winchester: Now, on the flip side, Indy also had some important losses this winter. They lost, and they're all in the Midwest, and Indy's lost mountains before, and with a roster that big, you're gonna have some turnover. Uh, but the first wave of losses came back.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:24.000Stuart Winchester: in past release season in March, when the three areas owned by Midwest Family Ski Resorts, some of the best operators in the country, uh, they own Lutzen Mountain in Minnesota.00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: one of the largest ski areas in the Midwest, uh, Granite Peak in Wisconsin, which has 3 high-speed lifts, and Snow River, which is really 2 side-by-side ski areas and a nice snow belt in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. They left for Icon Pass.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:53.000Stuart Winchester: Now, there's a little bit of a historical precedent there, because those three ski areas had been on the Max Pass, which had been the immediate predecessor, along with the Rocky Mountain Super Pass, to the Icon Pass. Uh, the…00:16:53.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: Icon Pass, when it debuted in 2018, left off Snow River, Granite Peak, and Lutzen. And I always thought, well, Snow River wasn't a part of Midwest Family at the time, but I always thought that was a mistake. So I'm not surprised to see them go, but those were big drivers of Indy Pass sales.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: Because those are marquee mountains in the Midwest. They also recently lost…00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:34.000Stuart Winchester: Another three mountains run by another great operator in Wisconsin, Little Switzerland, Crystal Ridge, and Nordic Mountain. Now, these are small ski areas. They're feeder ski areas, but they're important ski areas because Rick is a very smart guy. He's very influential.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:50.000Stuart Winchester: And he has a lot of influence in the ski business, including being part of the board of directors of the National Skiers Association. Everyone respects him. They also lost Cabar Fay, one of my favorite mountains in Michigan. It was my pseudo-home mountain when I lived in Michigan as a teenager.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:57.000Stuart Winchester: I have a lot of respect for Tim and Pete Meyer, who run that over there. So, I'll talk a little bit more…00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: about that with Joe, because I think there's going to be some crossover with the snow pass. So, quickly, before we get to our guest, I want to tell you about Profile Search International.00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team?00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let me introduce you to the folks at Profile Search International. They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:48.000Stuart Winchester: They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:18:48.000 --> 00:19:04.000Stuart Winchester: With offices in the US and Canada, Profile Search finds and negotiates with the right leaders for your team. You can reach out to them directly at profilesearch.com or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note and I will connect you directly with their expert team.00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined.00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.000Stuart Winchester: As soon as we get a video.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined today by the founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns and operates the Mountain Creek Outdoor Ski Area and the Big Snow American Dream Indoor Ski Areas in New Jersey. Snow Partners' terrain-based learning program has been used by more than 80 ski resorts worldwide.00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:50.000Stuart Winchester: And the company has rolled out its SnowCloud all-in-one resort management software with at least 15 clients, including Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Last year, the company launched the Snow Triple Play Pass, which was good for 3 days, total across 16 ski areas in eastern North America.00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:01.000Stuart Winchester: Ahead of Winter 2026-27, Triple Play adds 7 additional mountains, for a total of 23, at a price of $179.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: Snow Partners has also launched the Snow Pass, which is loaded with two days each at 14 ski areas for $339.99. My guest to break all this down for us today is a good friend of the Storm Skiing Podcast, Joe Heschen. Joe, welcome back to the storm. Always good to track you down.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:18.000Joe Hession: Thanks.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.000Stuart Winchester: How are you feeling on Snow Pass launch day?00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:36.000Joe Hession: You know, it's launch day for Snow Pass. It's launch day for Mountain Creek Seasons Passes. So winter's in the air. Things are happening. It's really exciting. This is probably my favorite time of year. So thanks for having me on such a special day. Winter's coming.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: I'll do it.00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and it's the first day of the new platform for the Storm. So I wanted to get you on first. I'll admit, I want to do a little bit of a flex because I know you're a hard guy to track down and you're doing a lot of cool, interesting things. I want to start with the Snowpass, Joe, because you came on the podcast last year to talk about Snow Triple Play.00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.000Stuart Winchester: And your launch, and you were pretty…00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:09.000Stuart Winchester: adamant, you know, this is not a pass. I don't want to do a pass. And, you know, we talked about it a lot, and I probably harassed you about it a little bit, and now we have a pass!00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:17.000Stuart Winchester: So, so tell us about that journey. How did, how did we get from TriplePlay to SnowPass, and, and why do you have the two different products?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah. And, and, you know, you might be very responsible for it because you, you pushed it early on of, you know, why, why would this not be a pass? And, you know, originally we were really following the data and the data we were really focused on was 73% of people ski between one and five days.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:50.000Joe Hession: the price point for that, and we were looking at the data for Mountain Creek with our triple play, and saying, you know, there's really not a lot of triple plays for multi-resort. That's kind of a cool, unique concept. So we were really stuck on the data. Obviously, we heard feedback from folks like yourself, and also your other… all your listeners and subscribers, and…00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:50.000 --> 00:22:05.000Joe Hession: And… but then, it was really our past partners. The people that bought the Triple Play were like, if we had this option, we'd be really happy. They hit us that in our post-survey, they said, we really would like this. Um, and then the resorts. We had great partners on the Triple Play program, and…00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:13.000Joe Hession: they came in and said, we would like this as well. So, you know, the model's been done, and we made the leap to do it. So we're really excited about it.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:28.000Stuart Winchester: You have a great network to launch, and I think especially if you live in New York Metro, and I want to talk about — I do want to talk about Triple Play, but let's focus on Snowpass for a minute. The three key mountains here are Bel Air, Gore, and Whiteface.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:43.000Stuart Winchester: These mountains, for those of us who are in the area, we know they're state subsidized. They've gotten a half billion dollars in investment. That's a whole different subject. We're going to leave that alone because the result of that for your pass holders is these are awesome ski areas. Bel Air is essentially a brand new ski area.00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000Stuart Winchester: And if you're in New York Metro, you get two days at Mountain Creek, and you get two days at Big Snow, then there's some little ones. You get up in Connecticut, you have Mount Southington. So you have a really nice network of.00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:10.000Stuart Winchester: 14 ski areas, 12 of them are in the east. Talk about that network, Joe, and how deliberate it was that they kind of worked together to create a compelling pass product.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:27.000Joe Hession: Yeah, that's a great question because that is, you know, we probably look at the world a little differently than people looking at different passes and different programs. And I think you nailed it. Like, you know, with the news last week, you know, sometimes people from Colorado chirp and they, this pass doesn't make sense for me. I'm like, yeah.00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:44.000Joe Hession: Yeah, congratulations. You can read and understand basic logic. So we love our friends in Colorado, we love our friends out west, but this is a pass that's very regional. It makes so much sense if you live in this area and you're planning to have those trips and, and, and you might remember this, but years ago.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:23:44.000 --> 00:24:00.000Joe Hession: at the NSA show, which is the National Ski Association. I was on stage with a bunch of different groups, talking about Epic Pass and ICOM Pass, and this is before we had a Pass product. And I was saying, and I was a little critical too.00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:18.000Joe Hession: you know, listen, I think the high-level past products that exist, which just throw out big numbers, like, you know, 40 of these resorts, these resorts, or 300 resorts, like, it's cool, but the reality is, is I'm really focused on how does someone actually use it? So if we go back to the skier.00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:35.000Joe Hession: and the snowboarder, and how do they actually use this pass? And, you know, back in the day, and I love, you know, the industry is much smaller than people, especially your listeners might realize, like, I have a ton of respect for almost everybody. If anyone's in this business, I respect them, because it's a really hard business.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:51.000Joe Hession: And so for us, I've always looked at it and said these big pass products that are kind of like overwhelming with the options, like how do people actually use them and where does it drive traffic and traffic to the right places at the right time and stuff like that. So we're very deliberate.00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:02.000Joe Hession: very deliberate in, if you live in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Long Island, um, upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania, this is a very compelling pass that not only takes you from the city.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:18.000Joe Hession: Because for us, what's really critical is that kind of warm handshake from, we're teaching a hundred thousand new people a year to ski at Big Snow. Where do they then go to? And obviously we want them to come to Mountain Creek, but I also want them to go to Whiteface and Bel Air and Gore and Platic Hill.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:34.000Joe Hession: Um, because things like that, that's kind of how this industry can work together to take people who are new to the sport, or people who are, maybe have never gone. Maybe they always go to Vermont, and we love Vermont, but maybe this is their chance to go up to Whiteface and realize, oh, wow.00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.000Joe Hession: That's, you know, you can see JP from there, right? So it's kind of it's people don't realize how far north Whiteface is.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a really nice network, and I think it's gonna sell really well. I mean, just even if… even if you just launched.00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: a Bel Air Gore Whiteface pass at that price point, I think it would probably sell really well. Uh, but the reality is you're going up against a very competitive market. So, uh, you look at Epic Pass, not maybe so competitive, you're doing something different, they don't have as many mountains in the market. Indy Pass.00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not even sure if you know this yet, because the embargo literally lifted when we started this at 10 a.m. eastern. A smuggler's notch today announced they are joining the Indy Pass. So the Indy Pass gives you a really nice network of resorts in your neighborhood.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: In New England, it has Waterville Valley, Cannon, Jay Peak, Saddleback, and now Smug, some of the best ski areas in the region. It has ski areas all over New York. That goes on sale to the public.00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:50.000Stuart Winchester: Today or tomorrow, the Indy Pass, they do a fall sale for $419. They have 256 alpine ski areas as of today, including 61 in the western US. They have a big head start, right? They started in 2019, so.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: you're offering a different product, but it works in the same way, right? SnowPass. Uh, little lower price point, $340 as opposed to $419. What's your pitch for someone considering SnowPass or IndyPass?00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:20.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, well, well, first let me hit that because it's, it's, what's interesting is, and, and it's important to kind of explain our background and where we come from. I probably see the world differently than almost everyone involved in this past world. I, I kind of look at it as.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:35.000Joe Hession: you know, the pitch is, if you live in this area and you want to visit the resorts on our pass, it's a no-brainer. Not only that, I don't think we're going to live in a world where there's Epic, Icon, Indy, Snow Pass, Mountain Collective.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:53.000Joe Hession: I think we should be trying to live in a world where we democratize skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and allow them to make choices in their price points where they want to go, vastly different than it is today. I think these programs, um, really exist because lack of good technology.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:08.000Joe Hession: Like, like, basically, we would have reciprocal programs back years ago with, uh, like, Mound Creek and Killington. And to get that to actually make sense to the guests, where they show up, and it's seamless, and the money's able to be traded the right way, wasn't possible years ago.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:24.000Joe Hession: So, for us, you know, and I'll get to the question of what the pitch directly to Indy, but I see the world so dramatically different than IndyPass. I see a world where independent ski resorts should be working with each other.00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:43.000Joe Hession: for the betterment of their guests to share people to different locations that people find interesting. A real-life example is Martok in Nova Scotia and Cape Smoky have a reciprocal program that they're actually allowed to have… they have one pass that's able to work at both places and can split the revenue and funding between it.00:28:43.000 --> 00:29:00.000Joe Hession: between them. They have common ownership. But they're both on SnowCloud. So really, you know, our software platform, SnowCloud, which really operates all the things that is involved with Snowpass and Snow TriplePlay, our real pitch long-term, our real pitch of what we're trying to do with Snowpass.00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Joe Hession: is open up the door to give resort leaders and operators tools where they take out the middleman. And what I mean by the middleman is Wachusett and a resort up in Vermont doesn't need a third party to organize their pass benefits.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Joe Hession: They should be doing it directly themselves, using better technology. So, I am calling for a shift, a big shift, in the way that people think of this, of, let's get away from these big, pillar, clunky things that are these big, like.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:46.000Joe Hession: big, like, kind of ego plays of passes, and let's take skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and let them have direct relationships with the resorts they love, and give these operators great tools to allow that to happen.00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.000Joe Hession: Um, so that that's our long term pitch. Yeah.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:56.000Stuart Winchester: So let me jump in there. I just want to ask now, I want to follow up on that. So are you saying this snow pass, your goal is to…00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.000Stuart Winchester: make it extinct at some point? It's a building block to the next level, is that what you're saying?00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000Joe Hession: You…00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah, what's interesting is Snowpass, we have no upside in Snowpass. So we've been very open and clear about this. And I just want to make sure the goal of Snowpass is secure. We share all of our books openly with all of our resort partners. They can see every transaction, every dollar flow.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:33.000Joe Hession: There's overhead in some of the expenses. They get a clear, like, this is the piece that we do that. We originally said it was estimated at 5%. If it ends up becoming 3%, we'll distribute the rest of that to the resorts. We have no profit margin built into our plan for Snowpass.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:43.000Joe Hession: Snowpass to us is the first step in trying to prove the theory of could we remove the middleman from the equation?00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:58.000Joe Hession: And we applaud the idea that if you're on Snowpass, and let's say that Whiteface wants to now work with Platykill directly, we would celebrate that and see that as a huge win.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Joe Hession: Because we want resorts to collaborate. If people are real fans of skiing and snowboarding, and they've been buying passes for years, and part of it, they know that the beauty of the ski industry is when the ski industry, skiers, snowboarders, the people that operate these resorts, work together.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:26.000Joe Hession: they create beautiful things. So we need to give them tools to work together, and also the ability to work together, because some companies restrict people from being able to work with each other, which goes against the spirit of the whole ski industry in the first place.00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.000Stuart Winchester: So if you were… So let's think of… Let's do a thought experiment here. So let's take some…00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:32.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: some resorts that share your operating software, right? So you have Mountain Creek, so you can do whatever you want with it, and you have big snow. I know that, for example, Greek Peak up in upstate New York uses, it's up near Cornell, sort of central New York for folks who aren't familiar. It would be a great feeder from Mountain Creek because it has.00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: a resort feel, and it's a big mountain, and it has a nice hotel across the street with a water park and everything. So you have, uh, Greek Beak, and then you signed Jackson Hole, right? So would an example be that if you were a…00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek Passholder, you could somehow…00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek could sign a deal with Greek Peak for shorter-term visits and Jackson Hole for longer-term. Is that the goal, and how would that be different from a pass we have now?00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:40.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, yeah, well, because it could be priced exactly to the price, it would make sense to the consumer. Because right now, and remember, when people buy an IndiePass or a pass like that, there's an idea that all these resorts, like, I'm a big fan of IndiePass.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:57.000Joe Hession: Pareto charts, the 80/20 rule. I will guess, not knowing anything about their business, that 80% of the revenue is made up of 20% of the resorts and the visits. I will almost guarantee it because that's how statistics works. So when you have huge numbers, it starts to cloud the efficiency of it, right?00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:17.000Joe Hession: So to me, I look at and say, yeah, so a program where it's like if Mountain Creek went to Greek Peak and said, we want to have a reciprocal program where if someone uses this, it seamlessly just works at the lift. So imagine someone took their Mountain Creek pass, went and rode the lift at Greek Peak and boom, the transaction happened. The guests never even knew it happened.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:32.000Joe Hession: the business relationship worked, and then we shared data to basically say, oh, this is a Mountain Creek and Greek Peak guest. Now you guys can market directly to them and hopefully get them to come for a longer stay next time. That's where I… that's where I would love to have it, and Greek Peak's a great example.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:40.000Joe Hession: We're great partners with them. We love that resort. They've been great early adopters of SnowCloud. We're not allowed to have a reciprocal program with them at Mountain Creek or Big.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:58.000Joe Hession: They're, they're contractly obligated not to work with anyone other than who they work with, which is, which to me is just wild. And I think most people don't realize that that's how it works. And, you know, the last thing we need is, is the middleman kind of inserting themselves into controlling how people operate. It's just.00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:10.000Joe Hession: So… so I would love… I see a future like that. Currently, unfortunately, with a place like Repeat, we're not allowed to work with them. We're… we're… and… and I mean not on Snowpass. We can't have a reciprocal…00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:16.000Joe Hession: We can't give someone a discount if they're a Mountain Creek holder to go to Greek Peak. It's.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and great.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Joe Hession: Less rules. We need less rules.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Greek Peak has worked with IndiePass since 2019. They've been an original partner over there. I want to get to that in a second. You know, I…00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know if I see a post-pass world, because I like a menu, I like the big passes. However, what I think you're describing could solve is the free visit problem.00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: because I know Indian Ski Cooper, for example, had a dust-up a few years ago because Ski Cooper was essentially… India accused him of essentially creating a national pass, and that was probably my fault because I wrote an article that said, hey, look at this secret national pass for 300 bucks in Colorado. Nonetheless, it's a lot of…00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:19.000Stuart Winchester: Free visits and you have mountains like Bogus Basin in, in Idaho that are still giving away a lot of free visits. Now, Bogus is a great business and, and it's doing well and they have a surplus and, and they've evolved great in the past decade or so. Uh, but, but it seems like that could really solve that.00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: free visits problem, where there is some revenue sharing. Is that part of what you're trying to solve here?00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:41.000Joe Hession: 100%. And you see the big players do it, right? Like a big thing about us too is I'm not against anything. I think Indie is fantastic. And it's very important to point this out. I think that is, but I also think Epic and Icon are great.00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Joe Hession: Like, I'll put it this way, operating a small resort here in New Jersey, Mountain Creek, or Big Snow, there are things that Vail does so much better than us that we wish we had the resources they have. Now, with that said, we do things way better than Vail does, and they wish they had the resources.00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:14.000Joe Hession: Or the ability to do what we can do, right? And, you know, there's an old commercial years ago that there was, like, a big boardroom, and the boardroom, they're like, I wonder what the little guys are doing. And then all of a sudden, it showed the people in, like, the startup, and they're like, I wonder what the big guys are doing. So, we're all in the same business, and we're.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:32.000Joe Hession: some of the things they've done to try to cure their own things. They own most of their resorts on their program, so they're gonna do things the way that benefits them, because they own all those resorts together. And they've tried to solve these problems in similar ways, and I think learning from them on that stuff, same thing with Icon is doing similar stuff to that.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.000Joe Hession: Um, but yeah, I think…00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:44.000Joe Hession: that's exactly what we're trying to solve. We're trying to solve… we want resorts to have relationships that make sense to the consumer. Like, for example.00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:00.000Joe Hession: Who is going to go, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll focus on someone else for a minute. Who's gonna, who's gonna go to 40 resorts in a year on a certain pass? Nobody. Nobody. Skiers are smarter than that. No one's doing that. What they're doing, if you buy an Epic or Icon.00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:08.000Joe Hession: in the real world, the conversation goes, um, oh, I live in New York? Great. What pass are my friends buying?00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:24.000Joe Hession: Because where are they going to go this year? Where do we want to take our family trip? Oh, and it just happened. My wife and I, our family, we have a place in Snowmass. So every year, we have some friends who are like, I want to come out to Snowmass. Well, they buy an IconPass. Their decision is made based on, oh.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:43.000Joe Hession: your condo's available, I can go, I'm gonna lock in an Icon Pass. That's how consumers actually work. So, to me, it's like, I agree with you, I love the big passes, I don't think they should go away. I think there's a great place for India, I think there's a great place for Icon, I think there's a great place for Epic Pass. There might be a great place for Snowpass.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:59.000Joe Hession: But I also get really excited about other options. And I feel like we're at this disruptive time where we're seeing the results of these passes and kind of the rubs that are rubbing people the wrong way. And I think it might be time with technology that we can kind of.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:06.000Joe Hession: take it to the next level. Like, you know, we're talking about the evolution of, you know, major.00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:21.000Joe Hession: uh, success has been done, and there's been some learnings, right? Like… like, the pictures of the long lines and stuff, uh, that we see every holiday or powder day, like, is a result of the PASS program. It's a result of this, it's an output of that, and I think there's ways we can maybe.00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:37.000Joe Hession: Make it better where the skier gets a better choice, a better experience, and then the resorts get to share in different ways. So really, at the end of the day, I think it's a technology driven way to better collaborate for the betterment of the ski experience to democratize.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.000Joe Hession: It's kind of the price and take out the middleman is really, is really my pitch.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.000Stuart Winchester: So, Joy, I appreciate…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.000Joe Hession: I'd like to remove myself from the equation eventually.00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:01.000Stuart Winchester: You know, the problem with you removing yourself from the equation, Joe, is that everyone I talk to really likes working with Snow Partners, your team. They like the train-based learning, they like your operating software.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: And I appreciate that spirit of Bonhomie, and you're right, the ski industry is small, and it was smaller than I would have imagined, and it was more welcoming than I would have imagined. I'm not sure if you read the lawsuit.00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: The most recent one filed against Veil Altera, Boyne Powder, the National Skier Association and and RRC. And it's built.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: the case for the lawsuit is built on accusations of collusion. Using a lot of.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:50.000Stuart Winchester: kind of fluffy evidence of people getting together at NSAA shows and basically sharing data and sharing best practices. I think all industries do this. Now, I'm going somewhere with this.00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: I appreciate that, and I think IndyPass, a lot of people love working with them. However, maybe a little more conflict would be good for the ski industry, because one thing I've seen as I've been reading old newspaper clippings is ski operators used to talk a lot more junk to each other, like, oh, Summit County, Colorado does.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: more skier visits to the whole state of Utah. Obviously, those days are over, but there used to be a little more smack talk. So let me get into a little controversy here, and you can address this as you want.00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: As you said, Indy Pass does not share. You have been willing to share and and the snow triple or snow pass shares two mountains, Bromance in Quebec and Whiteface with Mountain Collective and three.00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Butternut, Jiminy Peak, and Cranmore with the Icon today. You and Indy are both claiming Snow King, you're both telling me it's locked in, uh, and…00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Indy's telling me it's only gonna be on Indy, so… there's a little conflict for ya. Uh, how are you approaching that, and what do you think about the scenario?00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.000Joe Hession: Yeah, yeah.00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so we're talking about Snow King specifically?00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, Snow King specifically.00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so specifically Snow King, we have a signed agreement with Snow King. We're very excited to work with Snow King.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:23.000Joe Hession: Uh, Snow King would love to have visits, uh, come from us, and they are on our website, and we launched with Snow King. Um, that's where we're at. Um, you know, as far as what's going on with them in Indy.00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:39.000Joe Hession: Um, I'll kind of let them speak to that to themselves, but from what I understand, which I'll take some liberties and say what I think is going on, is there is a clause in an IndyPass that if someone leaves the IndyPass program.00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:55.000Joe Hession: They have to not work with anyone for another year. And it's kind of buried in the fine details. So I think what happened is I think they were off that pass, planned to be off that pass, maybe wasn't familiar with that clause, and then signed an agreement with us.00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:10.000Joe Hession: So for me, so the big question is, hey, so here's the choices as we sit today. We have a signed agreement. We've told Snow King, if this is going to hurt you, we never want to hurt you. So we are 100% willing to do whatever that takes.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Joe Hession: to do it.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:17.000Joe Hession: But, you know, we're not gonna just, like, bow down, because at the end of the day.00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:31.000Joe Hession: It's also on Indy, and maybe they… maybe they signed an agreement that wasn't… that was not the right thing to do. We have a signed agreement. They're on our paths, right? Um, at the end of the day, there's one person who can make a big choice here.00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000Joe Hession: Is Indy gonna sue Snow King because of this clause in the piece?00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:54.000Joe Hession: I read in the Boston Globe that Eric Mogensen is going to, like, change and save skiing. Is he going to sue a small ski resort? Like, and I know that's blunt, but I would put the ball right back in his court. I would love to, you know, if he sues Snow King.00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:12.000Joe Hession: That would be an insane thing. And I think he should go out to everyone and say, you know what, we're not going to litigate. You know, I know he hasn't been operating a ski resort long, and I have a ton of respect because of the fact that the fact that he's a GM of a ski resort, the fact that he's operating a ski resort, there's not a single person. And I respect him.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:27.000Joe Hession: I really do. I really do. There's just one piece that we don't see eye to eye on. And it's… he's told me he's the anti-collaborator, and I am the ultimate collaborator. So when you get us in the ring together, it's one is super collaboration and one isn't. And so to me.00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:39.000Joe Hession: I think, you know, the more he operates a ski resort, he's gonna realize that litigation is one of the hardest things we have to deal with in the ski business. We have realities of things that happen at ski resorts that involve litigation.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:49.000Joe Hession: suing each other is just a waste of time. Like, what are we doing? Like, we should be, like, we need… we should be talking about skiing and snowboarding, and we should be thinking.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:09.000Joe Hession: how many visits can Indy give Snow King? I would love for them to get a ton of visits. How many visits can Snow Pass give Snow King? Let's get Snow King visits. Let's give people options. And just because of, like, some, uh, you know, red tape in a contract, we're then gonna threaten and clause, like.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:28.000Joe Hession: So that's… so here's… so I gave you probably more than I should have, but… and I'm sure Hugh is no longer looking at me, so he… but he didn't give me the hook, so I'm still talking, right, Hugh? We're good? So, I'm sure… you know, but you'll definitely… you wanted to have, you know, for this inaugural session, you wanted to have some stories. This is a story.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:39.000Joe Hession: The story is, the reality is, the truth is, that they were under contract, Indy, from what I understand, which they've told me, they wrote they are no longer to work, they gave them the right.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:53.000Joe Hession: I'm out. This is the time you're supposed to be out. They were unaware of this one clause, which we were also unaware of. We signed, we moved forward, we announced. After announcement, it was, no, you can't do that. So, really, right now, I think Snow King would gladly take visits from both.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.000Joe Hession: We would gladly take visits from both.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:02.000Joe Hession: Ball's in Mogensen's court, we'll see what he does. I guess the best way to approach this is publicly. So, here.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: And he…00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:16.000Stuart Winchester: I agree, and Eric is scheduled to be on this podcast on Thursday, so he will have his chance to respond. And you know what, Joe, you're welcome back anytime to respond. But before you go out the door, I do want… I did promise to keep these short, and I know for you and I.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.000Joe Hession: Perfect!00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:16.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:31.000Stuart Winchester: Both, that's a challenge. I do want to call out some of these awesome new triple play partners, uh, Jiminy Peak and Cramore, especially. I have a ton of respect for the Fairbanks and, and, uh, what, and what they do. Uh, Bromont is, is an excellent.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:51.000Stuart Winchester: edition, and Hallamont. Actually, Hallamont is on Snow Pass as well, which is a terrific skier. I never realized until I went there this year. It's just because it's private on the weekends and in public during the week. What do you have to do to convince some of these folks, especially Jiminy Cranmore Bromont, to jump over to Snow Pass? Do you think there's a path there?00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, you know, I do. I think it's kind of proving it out over time, but also making, you know, going back to what I said earlier, maybe the right product for them is a relationship with different resorts, right? Maybe it's a whole new version of what happens, but I think we're very lucky to have them on the program.00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:25.000Joe Hession: Both operators are fantastic. Brian and Tyler Fairbank, we go back really far. Like, they were early adopters of us with snow operating and train-based learning. Brian Fairbank, if people don't know, is one of the godfathers of snowmaking in the industry.00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:40.000Joe Hession: He's still at it. He's in his 80s. He's out there making snow. I mean, he's an absolute legend. So anytime we get to work with him and his resort partners, we're really happy. Tyler, we've obviously known for well over a decade and a half as well.00:46:40.000 --> 00:47:00.000Joe Hession: great resorts, we've loved visiting them, and I think they're great operators, so I think people are going to love discovering them. And that's, you know, one thing I'll give a lot of credit to Indy for, which has opened our eyes, is the fact that there's so many passes on the program, there's the fact that there's all these different options. People learn new places they've never learned before, right? And I think Epic and I kind of have done the same.00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Joe Hession: You know, I never thought of going to Crested Butte, but because it's on the Epic Pass, I'm going to go to Crested Butte, or I never thought of going to this resort, but because of it. And I think that's been a huge success. And it's great to hear you say, like, Hollymont, like, oh, I didn't know that much about the.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:29.000Joe Hession: I think that's the spirit. The spirit is, how do you take skiers from different regions and inspire them to want to go to somewhere else and make that transaction seamless and easy for the operators to navigate, is really our goal.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:49.000Stuart Winchester: It's such a rich world, and I love how you're helping folks explore it. Leave us with this, Joe. Where can we buy Snowpass? And I believe you said you're selling a limited number. You probably won't tell me that number, but how soon should folks go to where you're going to tell us to go before they're going to lose this special price of, I believe, 340 for Snowpass and 179?00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000Stuart Winchester: For the triple play.00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:05.000Joe Hession: Correct. So, so 4pm today, mysnowpass.com, uh, it's gonna be a limited release. Uh, if you know the Mound Creek world, and you know how we do it, it's actually Mound Creek's on the clock right now.00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:22.000Joe Hession: Um, we've been selling for 31 minutes, so I'm gonna get an update when we get off the call here, but at 4 o'clock, we will have our watch party with our group in the kind of war room. We're watching the transactions live. We have a number that we have promised ourselves we will not exceed, and it'll shut itself down at that number.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:40.000Joe Hession: Um, so 4PM today will be, uh… will be the birth of a new product in the industry, which hopefully will inspire other new products down the road, and… and hopefully start to change the relationship between resorts and… and the skiers, because that's what it's about. It's about getting skiers the best price for the best mountains, new… doing new things, and working together.00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:00.000Joe Hession: And we have a beautiful industry of resorts, but we have great customers. People who are skiers and snowboarders are so passionate. Like, I read everything they post on your stuff. You know, the comments have been just amazing. And, you know, we're looking forward to, over time, I want to make that person in Colorado that keeps saying, this pass stinks, has nothing to do for me.00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:09.000Joe Hession: I want to eventually win them over by giving them a product that does make sense for them or allowing resorts there to find a product that works for them. So it's really exciting day.00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: Colorado bro is very proud of Colorado. Uh, last year, Joe, you sold Snow Triple Play, I believe, until Christmas Eve. You have a similar schedule in mind for these two passes this year?00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah, exactly the same schedule. So they'll be… the best price will be the launches. So today will be the lowest possible price, it'll scale up in another drop, and then it'll be on sale for a little bit at its full retail price, and then it'll turn off at that time. Exactly.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Joe, so good to run you down. Good luck with the launch. I can't wait to see how it goes, and how this thing grows, and frankly, how this little controversy between Snowpass and Indypass resolves itself, because I'm sure that you will find a way through it. So, thank you so much for being my first guest on the new platform. I really appreciate it.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:35.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:54.000Stuart Winchester: You're welcome on anytime. We'll talk to you really soon.00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.000Joe Hession: Great. Thanks for having me.00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care, Joe. Bye now.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so…00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what do you…00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:23.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so that was Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners and the founder. Quick update from another partner before I wrap up the show today. If you run a ski area or outdoor brand, I want to tell you about my friends at Bonfire Collective.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:35.000Stuart Winchester: They are a fractional marketing team that collaborates with ski areas and outdoor brands, and they will give your marketing a fresh perspective and better storytelling to supercharge your rebranding or advertising.00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire can help you rethink your approach in ways that can turbocharge your business.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:49.000Stuart Winchester: For example, Bonfire took on the marketing at one New Hampshire ski area and doubled revenue in just three years.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: When the storm was ready to invest in its first ever digital marketing campaign last year, I worked with Bonfire to make it happen. I could not be happier with the results, and I think you will love working with them as well. To get started, you'll want to talk to Eric.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:21.000Stuart Winchester: over at Bonfire Collective. He was a co-founder of Bluebird Backcountry Colorado, the first human-powered ski area, so he knows the ski business. You can actually listen to his podcast episode on the Storm Skiing Podcast, long form. Visit bonfirecollective.com.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:25.000Stuart Winchester: Or I will be happy to make that connection for you.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, how great was Joe?00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:45.000Stuart Winchester: This is why I love the new pod, because I can have guys like that on all the time. I have dozens of relationships like that throughout the ski industry. Anytime you've listened to a podcast and you've heard someone on there and you enjoyed the conversation.00:51:45.000 --> 00:52:01.000Stuart Winchester: Whether it was Carl Kapczynski, who runs California Mountain Resorts, or… and owns Mountain High, and Bear Valley, and China Peak, and Dodge Ridge out in California. Or if it was…00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Dustin, who… the president at Copper Mountain, uh, or it was Rob Katz, you know, the Vale CEO. I'm interacting with these people, or… or the folks who represent them, all the time.00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:31.000Stuart Winchester: I talk to Carl Kabasinski all the time, but I haven't had him on the podcast in four years. He's already agreed to come on the new shorter form to talk about all the things going on in his mountains. And that's what's great about it. And, you know, one of the concerns that I heard from people when I announced a shorter form pod was.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:47.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, well, I really like when you covered small mountains. Well, this will allow me to do that much more, because I don't have to commit an entire hour and a half long episode to it, and it doesn't have to be the whole history of the area. I can just, for example, ask.00:52:47.000 --> 00:53:02.000Stuart Winchester: Rick Schmitz from Little Switzerland in Wisconsin to come onto the show and talk about the new quad chairlift that he's putting up or two new quads put

Esta Perashá Nisabim-Vaiélej nos enseña que todos somos iguales ante Dios y es nuestro corazón lo que marca quienes somos.

The Lads sit down with fantasy author and former high school classmate Vail Finn to talk about his debut novel, In Ithan, and how fantasy literature plays a surprising number of roles in our cultural framework.Get the book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/48cg4rkFollow Vail's YouTube: AllWhoComeInPeace

Enjoy one month of Conversations on Dance on Patreon for free! Redeem here. This episode was recorded live from the Vail Dance Festival on August 9th, 2026.In this early-morning session from the final day of the festival, Michael Sean Breeden is joined by guest co-host Kate Penner (Rebecca had already headed home for her son's first day of school) for a conversation with four dancers who represent very different paths into the profession: Savannah Green (BalletX), Kayla Mak (ABT), Brooks Landegger (ABT), and Philip Duclos (Royal Danish Ballet). They talk about how differently each of their careers began, the moment each of them was "thrown in the deep end" at Vail, how they mentally and physically prepare for a performance, and what it's like bringing what they learn at the festival back to their home companies.Conversations on Dance was the recipient of the 2024 Clive Barnes Award for Journalism and Media Achievement.Access bonus episodes on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/conversationsondanceWebsite: conversationsondancepod.comJoin our email list: https://conversations-on-dance.kit.com/7f73880f5bInstagram: instagram.com/conversationsondance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode was recorded live from the Vail Dance Festival on August 9th, 2026.Enjoy one month of Conversations on Dance on Patreon for free! Redeem here. In the final episode of our Vail Dance Festival series, Michael Sean Breeden is joined by guest co-host Kate Penner for a rare conversation with the festival's pianists: Michael Scales, Derek Wang, Tony Yun, Joel Wenhardt. Together they pull back the curtain on what most audiences never see: the musicians who make dance possible. They talk about how each of them found music in the first place, what it's actually like to collaborate with choreographers and dancers in the room, the tiny details that can make or break a piece, and some of their favorite moments from years of playing at Vail.Conversations on Dance was the recipient of the 2024 Clive Barnes Award for Journalism and Media Achievement.Access bonus episodes on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/conversationsondanceWebsite: conversationsondancepod.comJoin our email list: https://conversations-on-dance.kit.com/7f73880f5bInstagram: instagram.com/conversationsondance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What did you think of todays show??Every washed up influencer on your feed suddenly found God, and the timing is not an accident. In this episode, we break down faith as a sales pitch, the borrower who filmed himself explaining how to lie for an Airbnb loan, and why real estate advice from 2015 is still ranking on YouTube and still wrong. You'll also hear what a $20 million yacht really costs to keep, and what Mike learned about insurance checks after his house burned down.Topics discussed:Introduction (00:00)Why washed up influencers suddenly found God (01:35)Andy Elliott and the faith sales pitch (03:05)What a $20 million yacht really costs (10:53)The buyer who tried to retrade Dylan (14:55)How a Chinese AI cracked a Bitcoin wallet (17:15)The Airbnb owner who filmed himself telling people to lie (22:35)Why non-recourse debt doesn't exist (24:34)Why 2015 real estate advice still ranks (25:16)Pace Morby and guru advice that was never true (26:09)Mike's burned house and the insurance checks (29:26)The property every landlord wishes would burn (29:42)What servers in Maui and Vail actually make (37:27)Why the 30 year yield hasn't moved DSCR (40:01)Follow us on Instagram!https://www.instagram.com/collectingkeyspodcast/https://www.instagram.com/mike_invests/https://www.instagram.com/investormandan/https://www.instagram.com/dylan_does_deals/This episode was produced by Podcast Boutique https://www.podcastboutique.com (https://podcastboutique.com/)

Seth Morrison is the ski icon that I wanted to launch this podcast with 10 years ago, but Seth doesn't do interviews. He told me no for 3 years and I stopped bothering him.  I gave it one last shot a few months ago and Seth said yes! Now, I'm able to end the 500-episode run of The Powell Movement with my favorite, every pro's favorite, every fan's favorite, and every industry person's favorite pro skier, Seth Morrison. This is the Sid Vicious looking ski pioneer that brought high consequence tricks to the backcountry, went bigger than everyone, and got the loudest cheers at all the movie premieres. In part one we talk about the early days and Pep Fujas, Lhotse Merriam Hawk, and Mike Jaquet ask the Inappropriate Questions.   Seth Morrison Show Notes: 3:00: Why podcast, early days, family, skiing, warming, and Vail 20:00: Elan Skis:  Over 75 years of innovation that makes you better. 22:00: Racing, finding the backcountry, who he looks up to, college, product he liked, compromise, his 37:00: Outdoor Research: The  best is developed and tested in the brutal conditions the PNW and beyond 43:00: The US Extreme's, full face, why was he better, Warren Miller, MSP, AK, guides, partying, working side jobs, early seasons, K2, the end of comps, and the heli crash 82:00: Inappropriate Questions with Pep Fujas, Lhotse Merriman Hawk, and Mike Jaquet

Fresh off hosting a superb 50th-annual Vail Hill Climb, we sit down with Wyatt Smith to hear how he ended up in his role at the VRD, his love-hate relationship with Nordic skiing, and what dream-events he's cookin' up for the future!

Wildfires, triple digit temperatures and dusty, blown out trails – it must be the middle of August in Tahoe. Episode 94 features a grab bag of topics including the relationship between dogs and bears, magicians and the ice cream man, new Tahoe trails, Heavenly opening its gondola to mountain bikes, Palisades Tahoe offering a midweek pass for $699 while Alterra gets sued for price fixing, poisoned trees in Incline Village and the development of the largest El Niño in recorded history. Also, the 888 COR LORD hotline blows up with voicemails, Trail Whisperer gives his initial impressions on his new Aventon Current EXP, issues a call to action in Nevada to stop Greenlink North and the boys shout out Kyle and Jessica Aster for donating $250,000 to TAMBA for finishing Meeks Ridge Trail. Throw in a couple DOPE or DERPs and On a Musical Notes, this is a variety-packed episode.3:00 – Buy a Mind the Track hat at Start Haus in Truckee!4:10 – Downieville Classic Recap – Tobin Ortenblad and Marco Osborne winners!6:50 – Cosbey witnesses carnage on Baby Heads8:30 – Big fires in Reno/Tahoe area – Bug Fire, Stallion Fire and Talbot Fire14:25 – Pow Bot's two brothers visit from Michigan and ride Tahoe16:00 – Trail Whisperer gives his initial impressions on the new Aventon Current EXP20:00 – Core Lords Call In – Josh from Loyalton – Tahoe Donner, Glizzys and Bike Polo25:40 – Lauren – Picking up a new truck camper while listening to truck campers.26:40 – We have female listeners, Glizzy Gauntlet results and 7-Eleven is lame34:13 – Jon calls in and praises Gordo as well as prioritizing play over work41:17 – Eric calls in and shares a funny ice cream man story46:36 – Magicians are like the ice cream man – people don't like either49:10 – Stop the Greenlink North power line from running along Highway 50 in Nevada53:00 – Does your dog make you safer in bear country?58:15 – Someone is poisoning and killing dozens of trees in Incline Village1:04:00 – Huge shout out to Kyle and Jessica Aster – THANK YOU for donating $250k to TAMBA1:06:50 – The new Panorama Trail at Heavenly opens, as well as the gondola opening to MTBs1:11:20 – Palisades Tahoe bringing back midweek season pass for $6991:12:30 – Class action lawsuit against Vail, Alterra, Powder Corp and Boyne for price fixing1:15:05 – The Super El Nino of 2026-27 seems to be a certainty at this point1:22:15 – DOPE OR DERP – Cell phone mounts on bike handlebars1:28:40 – DOPE OR DERP – Hand guards on a mountain bike1:35:50 – ON A MUSICAL NOTE – Organically Good Trio1:39:05 – ON A MUSICAL NOTE – Genesis Owusu1:40:30 – ON A MUSICAL NOTE – The Crooked Stuff1:49:20 – Sept 11-13 – Mount Hough Enduro and Grinduro. Be there!1:51:07 – The Crooked Stuff – Waking Alive

Today we have Dan. He is 44 years old from Denver, CO, and he took his last drink of alcohol in February of 2025.   This episode is brought to you by:   Sign up and get 10% off: Better Help Sober Link sign up and claim your $100 enrollment bonus   Over the last six months, we have been working on a book called This is How We Quit. It is a compilation of 24 sobriety stories that will be released on August 31st, 2026. To coincide with the release, Recovery Elevator is doing a free online event to celebrate the launch. More details on that event are coming soon!   [03:15] Thoughts from Paul:   Paul shares with us his history with the guest today. They were close friends in high school; they played football together and drank plenty of beers at parties together. They lost communication over the years, but by happenstance and a lost wallet, they reconnected last year. Since then, they went on a trip to Sonora, Mexico to find reptiles and also went to their high school reunion together.   [05:49] Paul introduces Dan:   Dan is 44 years old, lives in Westminster, CO and took his last drink in February 2025. He was born and raised in Vail to wonderful parents and was close with his siblings. He is currently engaged and works in commercial construction sales. Dan enjoys spending time outside mountaineering, trail running and enjoying the arts. He recently rediscovered his love of reptiles and amphibians.   Dan says he was very shy and reserved growing up. He had his first drink right before freshman year of high school. He felt a sense of ease and that he could talk to people. He recalls thinking that this was the solution and how normal people must feel all the time. Through high school, Dan's drinking was minimal and he doesn't feel he ever was loss in control.   In college, Dan says his alcohol consumption went through the roof. Frequently drinking beers with friends at the dorms or at keg parties, Dan remembers the hangovers were pretty tough. He would focus on school during the week just waiting for Friday night. He felt the drinking was something he could control.   After graduating college, Dan went into the sales industry. He moved back to Vail and had a girlfriend and two roommates that he enjoyed drinking with. In the mid-2000's, Dan says the secrecy of his alcoholism began to rear its head. He was being told he drank too much. The signs were showing in his behavior, his hangovers were getting worse, he was missing work and other obligations. In 2007, Dan began working in a resort community in Dominican Republic. A few years later he began using other drugs in addition to drinking daily. He continuously would try to hide how much he was using until a coworker pushed him into treatment.     After a divorce, Dan moved to Denver and thought drinking might be different this time. He thought he should be able to have a pint with friends after work, but within a few weeks he was drinking in the mornings to avoid the shakes. After his first DUI, Dan was able to get and stay sober from 2019 until 2022.   Once again, he thought things would be different. Over the course of two years, Dan was in and out of mental health and rehab facilities. He struggled to keep a job and went through a second divorce.   In mid-February last year, Dan's neighbor called a friend to check on him. Dan was taken to the emergency room not knowing who his friend was or where he was. He was just trying to escape the hallucinations he was having; drinking was fun for him anymore.   Dan began going back to 12 step programs after this and started working hard on his recovery. Over the past year, he has found a great job, has a fiancé that doesn't drink but knows his history, has been able to help other friends with their addictions, spend more time in nature, and finally loves himself again.  Dan continues with his therapy and knows his story isn't over.   Recovery Elevator We took the elevator down. You got to take the stairs back up. We can do this.   Café RE RE Instagram Sobriety Tracker iTunes  RE YouTube

What happens when your toughest challenge isn't just your health—but the financial burden that comes with it?In this episode, Erik sits down with Brooke Skjonsby, Executive Director of the Vail Valley Charitable Fund, to explore the powerful mission behind one of Eagle County's most impactful nonprofits.Since 1996, the Vail Valley Charitable Fund has provided more than $10 million in financial assistance to over 2,400 local individuals and families facing medical crises and long-term illness, helping neighbors stay in their homes, pay medical bills, and focus on healing instead of financial survival.Brooke shares the remarkable origin story of the organization, the real-life impact of community generosity, and why the Vail Valley continues to rally around neighbors in their greatest moments of need. From emergency grants to innovative programs that improve access to dental care, physical therapy, and breast cancer screenings, this conversation is a reminder that strong communities are built by showing up for one another.Learn more about VVCF HERELearn more about Eagle County Gives HERE

Trevor Loudon Reports – Vail said meaningful change requires education of citizens, legislators, and the incoming administration after Governor Ron DeSantis leaves office. He supports treating Islam similarly to other ideologies historically restricted for seeking to undermine the Constitution and argued that First Amendment protections should not shield political efforts that erode...

Trevor Loudon Reports – Vail said meaningful change requires education of citizens, legislators, and the incoming administration after Governor Ron DeSantis leaves office. He supports treating Islam similarly to other ideologies historically restricted for seeking to undermine the Constitution and argued that First Amendment protections should not shield political efforts that erode...

Enjoy one month of free access to Conversations on Dance on Patreon and listen ad-free. Click here to redeem. Join Conversations on Dance hosts Rebecca King Ferraro and Michael Sean Breeden for a live podcast recording with this summer's Artist-in-Residence, Alexei Ratmansky. Ratmansky is widely regarded as one of the most important ballet choreographers of his generation, creating celebrated works for companies around the world and currently serves as Artist-in-Residence at New York City Ballet. This summer he brings that singular creative force to Vail, where he will create new work as part of the 2026 festival.Hear Ratmansky reflect on his creative process, his vision for new work, and what it means to bring his artistry to the mountains of Colorado during Artistic Director Damian Woetzel's landmark 20th year at the helm.Stay tuned for more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.Conversations on Dance was the recipient of the 2024 Clive Barnes Award for Journalism and Media Achievement.Access bonus episodes on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/conversationsondanceWebsite: conversationsondancepod.comJoin our email list: https://conversations-on-dance.kit.com/7f73880f5bInstagram: instagram.com/conversationsondance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Enjoy one month of free access to Conversations on Dance on Patreon and listen ad-free. Click here to redeem. Join Conversations on Dance hosts Rebecca King Ferraro and Michael Sean Breeden for a live podcast recording with one of ballet's most exciting rising stars: Ryan Tomash, newly promoted Principal Dancer at New York City Ballet.Born in Toronto and trained at Canada's National Ballet School, Tomash spent eight formative years with the Royal Danish Ballet before joining NYCB for the 2025-26 season. Tomash made his American debut right here at the Vail Dance Festival in 2025. Hear him reflect on that journey, from Copenhagen to New York, and back to Vail, and what's ahead.Stay tuned for more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.Conversations on Dance was the recipient of the 2024 Clive Barnes Award for Journalism and Media Achievement.Access bonus episodes on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/conversationsondanceWebsite: conversationsondancepod.comJoin our email list: https://conversations-on-dance.kit.com/7f73880f5bInstagram: instagram.com/conversationsondance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Enjoy one month of free access to Conversations on Dance on Patreon and listen ad-free. Click here to redeem. Join Conversations on Dance hosts Rebecca King Ferraro and Michael Sean Breeden for a special live podcast recording celebrating a remarkable milestone: the 10th year of Pulitzer Prize and Grammy Award-winning composer and performer Caroline Shaw as the festival's Leonard Bernstein Composer-in-Residence.Shaw, the youngest-ever winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Music, has been a defining creative voice at Vail for a decade: composing and collaborating across genres, disciplines, and artists in ways that have transformed what's possible on a summer stage. In this conversation, she reflects on ten years of pushing music and dance into new territory, what keeps drawing her back to the mountains of Colorado, and what is next for her.Stay tuned for more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.Conversations on Dance was the recipient of the 2024 Clive Barnes Award for Journalism and Media Achievement.Access bonus episodes on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/conversationsondanceWebsite: conversationsondancepod.comJoin our email list: https://conversations-on-dance.kit.com/7f73880f5bInstagram: instagram.com/conversationsondance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today on Just Ask Spirit we welcome author and healer Paula Vail. Paula is the author of Why Am I So Happy? A question she often received from those around her. Paula decided to put her insights about happiness in a book and she shares several of those tips in this episode. Don't for get to subscribe to the show and check out our marketplace. Purchase Paula's Book: Why Am I So Happy? ✔️Purchase The Emotional Detox 50 Card Deck

Enjoy one month of free access to Conversations on Dance on Patreon and listen ad-free. Click here to redeem. Join Conversations on Dance hosts Rebecca King Ferraro and Michael Sean Breeden for a live podcast recording with Three of Vail's most beloved returning artists: Lauren Lovette, Unity Phelan and Robbie Fairchild.Fairchild, a former NYCB Principal Dancer, became a Tony-nominated Broadway star originating the role of Jerry Mulligan in An American in Paris before going on to film, acting, and an ever-evolving performance life. Lovette, also a former NYCB principal, continues to grace the stage and is currently serving as Resident Choreographer of the Paul Taylor Dance Company and earning commissions from ABT, Vail, and beyond. Unity Phelan continues her extraordinary career as a principal dancer with New York City Ballet and international guest artist!Stay tuned for more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.LINKS:Website: conversationsondancepod.comInstagram: @conversationsondanceCOD MerchJoin our email listSponsorship information Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Enjoy one month of free access to Conversations on Dance on Patreon and listen ad-free. Click here to redeem. Join Conversations on Dance hosts Rebecca King Ferraro and Michael Sean Breeden for a live podcast recording with tap visionary and MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient Michelle Dorrance and artists from Trinity Irish Dance Company, the Chicago-based ensemble that has spent 35 years pioneering a genre-defying fusion of Irish step dance, tap, and contemporary movement.Dorrance and Trinity share a deep creative history, with Dorrance having choreographed multiple works for the company that push the boundaries of what percussive dance can be. Hear how this extraordinary collaboration was born, what it's like to work across two distinct movement traditions, and what Dorrance is creating this summer at Vail.Stay tuned for more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.LINKS:Website: conversationsondancepod.comInstagram: @conversationsondanceCOD MerchJoin our email listSponsorship information Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Enjoy one month of free access to Conversations on Dance on Patreon and listen ad-free. Click here to redeem.Today we are live from Vail with one of the Vail Dance Festival's most beloved returning artists, ABT Principal Dancer Herman Cornejo. Called “the most technically accomplished male ballet dancer in the United States” by The New Yorker, Cornejo has spent more than 15 summers on the Vail stage, becoming a touchstone of the festival experience for audiences and artists alike. The Argentine-born virtuoso joined American Ballet Theatre in 1999 and has since accumulated an extraordinary list of accolades. He is also the founder of the American Dancers Off-Road (ADOR) initiative and Director of Repertoire at ABT. In this conversation, he looks back at his history with the festival and forward to what's next.Stay tuned for eight more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.LINKS:Website: conversationsondancepod.comInstagram: @conversationsondanceCOD MerchJoin our email listSponsorship information Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Join Conversations on Dance hosts Rebecca King Ferraro and Michael Sean Breeden for a live podcast recording featuring Lloyd Knight and Laurel Dalley Smith from the Martha Graham Dance Company, one of the most iconic and enduring forces in American modern dance. As the company marks its centennial, hear directly from these incredible artists bringing Graham's visionary legacy to the Vail stage and shaping what it means today.This marks our 500th episode and our 10th year at the Vail Dance Festival. Stay tuned for nine more episodes coming from the Vail Dance Festival 2026.Conversations on Dance at the Vail Dance Festival is generously underwritten by The Town of Vail.LINKS:Website: conversationsondancepod.comInstagram: @conversationsondanceCOD MerchListen to COD on YouTubeJoin our email listSponsorship information Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It was another hot blast of a Summer Friday fun with our good pals comedian/director/actor Sandy Honig and musician Shannon Lay performing "The Calling" from her new album Past the Vail. Along the way we spoke to lots of YOU on zoom and the hotline, and even had some Bob Dylan talk. Get Shannon's album at shannonlay.bandcamp.com/album/past-the-veilSupport Office Hours, watch or listen to another hour of today's episode with some new doppelgangers, Shannon and her band performing the Slayer classic "South of Heaven" and much more with OFFICE HOURS+. Try it FREE for seven days at patreon.com/officehoursliveGet tickets to see On Cinema LIVE on the "Certified Five Bags of Popcorn Tour" this November at heinetwork.tv/eventsShop our merch store at officehours.merchtable.com and find the rest of our links at linktr.ee/officehoursliveGive yourself the gift of delicious Marz drinks with $25 off using code "officehours" at drinkmarz.comOne thing to pack, five ways to power! Get 10% Off @ Ridge with code OFFICEHOURSLIVE at Ridge.com/OFFICEHOURSLIVE #RidgepodSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we are on the cusp of a big week in Comics as SDCC approaches and I was lucky enough to be joined by Amy Chase and Savanna Mayer to talk about the latest in the new IDW Crime Imprint with the murder mystery Fixation. This 42 page 1st issue bring us Taylor Van Owens and her best friend Karrah, Taylor won a contest as a Fan VIP to witness the reunion of her favorite book and series Blood Mountain complete with a reunion of all the past cast members. The Town in Vail where the series takes place isn't all it's cracked up to be. Taylor encounters the characters that she fell in love with only to find out that sometimes its better not to meet your heroes. The Book series got her through a tough time, but the Vail is disguised in jealousy, manipulation, and Murder. Listen as Amy and Savanna gives details in the makings of this first issue Graphic Novel. Final Order Cutoff is August 3rd for preorders and the books releases September 9th.Written by Amy ChaseArtwork by Savanna MayerColors by James FennerLetters and Design by Sandy TanakaEdited by Riley Farmer

In Episode 82 of Lifting, Running, and Living, it's an update episode! Kelly recaps the July 5 Vail Hill Climb weekend and her recent binge reads. JK shares his training split shift and recent trends regarding creatine on social media. He also addresses concerns around the death of college football player Nolan Wells and cultural differences regarding friends leaving someone behind.00:00 Show kickoff updates00:28 Vail hill climb recap12:31 JK's training update28:45 Fourth Wing books41:43 Creatine Claims Debunked48:07 Nolan Wells Perspective01:01:00 Wrap Up and Where to Find UsFollow the podcast at ⁠⁠⁠@liftingrunninglivingpod⁠⁠⁠Email us at ⁠⁠⁠liftingrunninglivingpod@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠Follow JK at ⁠⁠@coachjkmcleod⁠⁠Follow Kelly at ⁠⁠⁠@runningklutz ⁠

Sometimes the biggest challenge isn't having enough data, it's knowing what to do with it.  As agentic AI moves to real-world deployment, our cities and towns are becoming smarter. The mountain town of Vail, Colorado is just one such example of where artificial intelligence is helping streamline services, improve decision making and enhance experiences for residents and visitors alike. This week, Technology Now welcomes Robin Braun, VP, AI Business Development, Hybrid Cloud, to the show to find out:  • How AI has been successfully used in Vail to improve outcomes for staff and consumers• Why breaking down silos helps instigate necessary communication between departments• Why AI is more than just a productivity tool, it's an essential part of modern day infrastructure 

Ethan gives an economic update after some shifts in the markets today. Plus, billionaire Matthew Prince is pressing Vail Resorts to sell him Park City Mountain Resort and says he'd invest $500 million — Vail isn't selling. We talk about the value of youth sports with the announcement of Utah Youth Sports Giving Day, a dam safety engineer joins us in-studio for the 50th anniversary of the Teton Dam failure, and Jon Smith stops by with a Utah fire season update. We wrap it all up with more of your First World Problems — including one husband whose wife's FWP is having to listen to us 24 hours a day.   Stream KSL NewsRadio LIVE: kslnewsradio.com/listen Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KSLBrightside Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KSLBrightside Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/KSL_Brightside TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ksl.brightside  

Ted Bundy was convicted of aggravated kidnapping in Utah in 1976. Bench trial. Judge Stewart Hanson. Sentenced to one to fifteen years. In October 1976, Colorado charged him with the murder of Caryn Campbell. He was extradited to Aspen in January 1977.As his own attorney, he received the legal courtesies the Sixth Amendment requires. Library access. No shackles. No handcuffs in the building. The Pitkin County Courthouse gave a murder defendant the run of the second floor.On June 7, 1977, he jumped from the library window. Twenty-five feet to an alley. Across the Roaring Fork River. Six days in the wilderness east of Aspen. A manhunt involving bloodhounds, helicopters, and roadblocks on Highway 82. Recaptured June 13 in a stolen Cadillac by Officer Gene Flatt.Transferred to the Garfield County Jail in Glenwood Springs. Over the following months, he stopped eating, lost more than twenty pounds, and widened a gap around the light fixture in his ceiling. On December 30, 1977 — New Year's weekend, skeleton staff — he crawled through the ceiling into the head jailer's empty apartment, dressed in civilian clothes, and walked out.Seventeen hours later, a guard found books under the blanket.Bundy's route: Glenwood Springs to Vail to Denver to Chicago to Ann Arbor to Atlanta to Tallahassee, Florida. Nine days. A stolen car. A plane. Two trains. Two buses. He arrived in a state that had no file on him.This is the third of five conversations in Ted Bundy: History's Hidden Killers. Two escapes. Two preventable failures. And the charge sheet that was too narrow to describe the man inside it.Join Our SubStack For AD-FREE ADVANCE EPISODES & EXTRAS!: https://hiddenkillers.substack.com/ Want to comment and watch this podcast as a video? Check out our YouTube Channel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-vxmbhTxxG10sO1izODJg?sub_confirmation=1 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Tik-Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@hiddenkillerspod X Twitter https://x.com/TrueCrimePodThis publication contains commentary and opinion based on publicly available information. All individuals are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Nothing published here should be taken as a statement of fact, health or legal advice.#TedBundy #TrueCrime #HiddenKillers #PrisonEscape #Aspen #Colorado #GlenwoodSprings #Fugitive #SerialKiller #TrueCrimePodcast

Bob Landers is a lifelong snowboarder, an underground entrepreneur, a cannabis expert, and a dear friend of mine for almost 40 years.  He's also a professional guide-but I don't disclose any information about what or where on the podcast. What I do is take you on BTS tour of what it was like to be a big-time Colorado cannabis grower, seller, and ski bum in the pre legal era of marijuana.  On the podcast we talk about privilege, snowboarding, a passion for weed, Dead Tour, meeting the right connections, the business, and the wild west of legal weed. Bob sure can tell a story, and this podcast is instantly one of my favorites.  Bob Landers Show Notes: 4:00: High School, weed, snowboarding in the 80's,  dropping out of college, and Dead Tour 22:00: Elan Skis:  Over 75 years of innovation that makes you better. 23:00: Vail, back to school, the real world, The Man, trouble, secret rooms, The Gangula, search and rescue, 40:30: Outdoor Research: The best is designed and tested in teh PNW and beyond 42:00: That guy, the business, legalization, finding the perfect strain, and the wild west of legal weed 63:00: Inappropriate Questions with Matt Shannon