Podcasts about sex drugs

  • 881PODCASTS
  • 1,263EPISODES
  • 56mAVG DURATION
  • 5WEEKLY NEW EPISODES
  • Dec 1, 2022LATEST

POPULARITY

20152016201720182019202020212022

Categories



Best podcasts about sex drugs

Latest podcast episodes about sex drugs

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode 80: Tea Spill Part 3: Child Molesting Televangelists, The Financial Trail & Lack Of Diversity Within The Bible Translation Industry And The Church's Merchandising Mayhem, With Barry Bowen, Staff Investigator @ Trinity Foundation

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 1, 2022 82:20


INTRODUCTION: Barry Bowen is the Staff Investigator at Trinity Foundation, a nonprofit organization that investigates religious fraud, theft and excess. From 2005 to 2010 Bowen served as one of the third-party whistleblowers assisting the U.S. Senate in its investigation of six TV ministries.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      Explanation Of IRS Forms 990 & 990T·      The Cora Jakes-Coleman Potter's House Sex Scandal·      Bisexual Televangelists ·      Do You REALLY Know Your Pastor?·      Insight Into The Bible Translations Industry ·      Pastors Paying Pastors aka “Honorariums”·      Church Music As A Business·      Church Of God In Christ (C.O.G.I.C.) Tom Foolery·      How The Church Is Like The ‘World'·      Revelation Chapter 18 CONNECT WITH BARRY: Website: https://trinityfi.orgTwitter: https://twitter.com/barrybowen  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Barry Bowen Part 3[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Barry Bowen, staff investigator at the Trinity Foundation is back with me for the third time. Y'all. Trinity Foundation investigates churches and televangelists and stuff like that, and so Barry Bowen. The perfect fit for my show. Now, in this episode, we discussed the financial trail found within the Bible translation industry, and we're talking about millions of dollars people, millions, we're gonna talk about child molesting, [00:01:00] televangelist, atheist preachers who don't even believe a word they fucking preach. And so much more. Y'all, when I say I can't even, I mean I can not even. Please listen to this episode and share it with someone you love. And feel free to reach out to me with any comments that you might have.I'm curious to hear what you have to say.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. My name is Devana and I am so glad that you decided to join me again on the day. I've got my homeboy, Barry Bowen back with me again, and we are here to break all the religious teeth down for you.And so the last time I had you on the show, We were talking about all these different churches and everything, and when we left we were gonna do like a Lakewood follow up. And so we, we, I know you've requested some information from the irs, they refused to [00:02:00] give it to you, so we're still waiting to get a lot of that.We did find out that they just started following their nine 90 tees back in like 2018. So basically we are still waiting for information on them, but can you explain everyone what a nine 90 T is? Barry: The irs requires non-profit organizations that have $1,000 or more an unrelated business income to file this Form nine 90 T.The income can be taxed and there are certain loopholes to the tax. The weirdest loophole in my opinion is rental income. So if a church is renting a facility and then they use that. Property for an outside event and they get money for, for it. It's taxable income if they own the building outright and do outside events [00:03:00] there and are paid for it.It's not taxable. It, it's really weird how the system works. But regular non-profits have to file a form called a nine 90, which is separate from the nine 90 T. There are different versions of it. One's called a postcard nine 90. That's for organizations with, I believe, $50,000 or less than revenue.Then there is a nine 90 easy form, which is for organizations with 50, more than $50,000 to under, I think $200,000. And anything more than that was the regular nine 90. And so a regular nine 90. They will disclose this kind of information in it. De'Vannon: And so we shall see in the future, you know, how transparently liquid gets so far we've been unable to attain, obtain their, their true income.[00:04:00] Though there has been some articles published, unlike their spending, but not so much on the income breakdown. So we shall see as time goes on. Did you hear about over at the, over at the Potter's house, the the the sex ring scandal with Jake's daughter, Cora? Barry: Yes. . De'Vannon: What are your thoughts?Because years ago, his son was caught up in some kind of sex shit too. And so now, We're talking about T Jake's son was caught up in some kind of sex bullshit too. And now his, as I understand it, the, the daughter core Jake's Coleman and the her husband was apparently running them holes. , what do you Barry: I have a friend who's following it very closely behind the scenes and she is like, and not in [00:05:00] shock because she knows how corrupt some of these people can be.And there have been a number of sex predators in the church. It's a tragic thing. It really does happen. What happens is churches try to be a place where people are trusted and where you can parents can trust their children to be Watched and not harmed. We know that in some cases that's not what happens.They do get harmed. Cora has, I believe, filed for divorce. I think she has, I haven't followed this it that closely. I don't know what she knew and when she started knowing it, but [00:06:00] often in the case of when these type of sex scandals happen in a church, they try to get the parents of victims to sign out of court agreements with confidentiality clauses.They try to buy their silence. So, and that's the one of the main ways of churches tried to handle these scandals. Now, that's not legal by the. What you're supposed to do is, it's supposed to be reported to law enforcement. Pastors are considered mandatory reporters. So when you have a sex scandal in a church and you report it to church staff, by law, they're supposed to contact law enforcement.De'Vannon: Well, the divorce is not going to absolve her of any guilt or clear her name or un muddy her name or anything. It's too late for that . [00:07:00]Barry: So, yeah. I attended a church years ago. There was a, where there was a sex scandal and it was tragic. I mean, I did not expect this person to do those kind of things. And he abused a young boy and that was, there were people that stopped attending church because of it.The police. So what happened is, in this case, the church cooperated with authorities and they did not try to rehabilitate him as in trying to provide a new church job for him or anything like that. I mean, in my opinion, a a sexual predator should never be hired by a church. De'Vannon: Well, the Catholic church didn't get that [00:08:00] memo.At least this church seemed like maybe they have some type of a soul. But I'd like to point out is that. , you know, these people who are doing this are not members of the BT Q I A plus community. You know, cuz these churches always trying to act like we're working around, they're trying to rape and molest their boys and everything like that, you know.But when it actually comes out, it's men who are married to women, men who identify as straight, or in case of mis cho, she's female herself. And you know, if fatt is true, then honey, then she was in there doing the dip too and fucking with these children. So we'll see what comes out in court Barry: when, and as an investigator of televangelist and other religious organizations, we get all kinds of tips and one of the things that I have learned is when a person has zero self-control in the area of [00:09:00] money, they usually have no self-control in other areas of their lives, including their sexuality.We have seen a large number of televangelists that are bisexual. I'm not about to out a bunch of people, but there are tons of rumors. Lots of them and almost all of 'em are credible. There is one that I wanna talk about though. There is a televangelist now deceased who in the 1990s, a TV network decided to do a TV expose on him.And I'll tell you who it is, after I finished telling you this story the a TV network decided they wanted to launch a new investigative one hour TV show a competitor to 60 Minutes. And this would've been one of their first TV shows. And so they started investigating a [00:10:00] televangelist and he was involved sexually with a male judge.Yes, you heard that, correct? Mm-hmm. this TV expose would've been a blockbuster. They had cameramen going into gay bars. There was employees of the organization going to gay bars. It was a wild story. But it was, or Roberts founder of, or Roberts University, the famous healing evangelist of the 1950s and later he was involved with a male judge.De'Vannon: None of this surprises. Barry: The, the, what happened was he had a health problem. I can't remember if it was a stroke. [00:11:00] Some type of a me medical emergency almost died, and this was right before the TV expose was scheduled to air. And what I think is happened is they canceled the program and I think it may have been induced by stress.He knew this expose was gonna come out. But yeah, there's, that's one of the wildest stories. But I mean, there are others that we've heard of. I mean, there's there are rumors about different televangelist committing rape. There's one case I know about that the records got sealed. I think it's a protective order or something that, so they, the results can't be disclosed.I can't drop a name or anything. But the allegations were. Absolutely horrendous. De'Vannon: Well, everyone just remember, you don't really [00:12:00] know your preachers. And for all the photo ops and all the social media visits, I remember, I think when Joel and Victoria Oing would go visit Earl Roberts and it was this whole media production thing.What I always wonder is what do these televangelist talk about when they were around each other? When the cameras turn off? Because whenever they're in front of a camera, they're at work. That is a version of them. They're selling no matter who they are. In all of television, it's the same thing. So I try to encourage people to remember that you don't know you're a preacher.You're not sitting down having dinner and you doing cocaine or whatever the fuck it is you like to do with him. Like you don't really know what the fuck he does when he is not around you or who he really is. So oral robber's, fucking the shit out of this judge. At least he had enough sense to go for power , you know?You know, and so, so this, none of this surprises me. And so, okay. I wanted to talk a lot today about the [00:13:00] Bible translations industry. This is super duper important because so many people read the Bible and then they tell their life off of what they perceive it to mean. Preachers try to control their congregations through the Bible and so much, you know, politicians, especially Republicans, try to make policy in everything based off of what they believe the Bible mean.So much stuff revolves around the Bible. And so I wanted to get into the finances behind the Bible. It's a very interesting thing to me because the Bible is, we know, came from the Middle East at some point. Oh, king James decided he wanted to make an interpretation of. There's a documentary on the Discovery Plus channel right now called The Book of Queer, where they go over queer people from history who we didn't know were queer.Abraham Lincoln, this certain Pharaoh, [00:14:00] and King James himself of the King James version. According to this documentary, he was a big old queer girl and it didn't matter, you know, what he put in there, but he was fucking around with boys too. So of course, in, you know, people from Europe come over here, start fucking with the indigenous people and whatever, and they bring their religion, their Catholicism, or whatever the hell you know, they had.So now we're here in present day in the, in. This Bible is just everywhere, all over the world, and people don't really, in my opinion, treated with respect. Like it actually came from the Middle East and that we're actually worshiping a God that was originally not our own. So this, this ownership of it. It seems like a bastard bastardization of its value to me.Now, in a blog you wrote or something I found on your website, which will go in the show notes, I believe you said that there's an estimated [00:15:00] 500 million per year in the Bible translation industry. Barry: We reprinted an article from Ministry Watch. The author of the story is Warren Cole Smith. Warren Cole.Smith has written for World Magazine. He's worked for the Colson Center. He's a very credible investigative reporter. He's written a book, faith-Based Fraud. And so we've looked into religious organizations involved in publication of Bibles. He's done a very thorough dive into them and. So he wrote that a half a billion dollars annually is spent on a revenue, goes to these organizations involved in translating the Bible.But I wanna go back a few centuries before the printing press. Bibles were handwritten. It would take a [00:16:00] scribe a long time to hand write the Bible. And when Gutenberg invented his printing press, he was able to speed up the process big time. A lot of people don't know this, but one of the first things he printed was indulgences for the Catholic church so people could buy their forgiveness all way out of purgatory.So that was one of the first things he printed. The. The printing press allowed a lot more access to the scriptures. And before the printing press, I'm sorry, before the printing press, people were generally oral learners. They learned by hearing. For example, in the in Islam, there are people [00:17:00] that will memorize the entire Quran and word for word, they'll be able to memorize the entire thing.And often they will lead in prayers at the mosque. That was the way of preserving it from generation to generation is is by knowing it by heart, by memorizing it. For Christianity. There, there's even a Bible verse and that says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So again, throughout most history, people learn by hearing.It was with the printing press that allowed people to have access and read for and study for themselves, and which is a huge development in the intellectual development of human kind. So in the [00:18:00]England, there was a man named John Woodcliff, I believe he was in England. He decided to translate, no was Tin decided to translate the Bible into English and he was actually put to death for it.The Catholic church had one translation Latin Vulgate. I think Jerome was the name of the translator. So the Bible was originally written in Hebrew, in Latin. Jesus spoke Aramaic. That was another language used in in Israel. If you study languages Greek is a very precise language. So we say the word love well, they have multiple words for love.Feel for like a friendly type, love agape, love for pure type love, ero, erotic type love. So [00:19:00]because of the preciseness of of Greek, it's easier to translate certain things. So when the printing press happened, Gutenberg did his first print run of the Bible. Wealthy people in Europe were able to buy Bibles for the first time often, and other publishers started building their own printing presses and they started publishing the Bible as well.In some cases there were crazy mistakes made. There was one Bible that when they, they did the printing plates, there was a mistake. And for like one of the 10 commandments, instead of saying dalt, not the word not was accidentally left out, I think it said Dalt committed adultery. The publisher was arrested and imprisoned.[00:20:00]So we started seeing the beginnings of the Bible publishing business. In the late 14 hundreds I believe, or early 15 hundreds. And eventually there were organizations, missionary organizations started to try to make disciples around the world. In the 18 hundreds, late 17 hundreds, early 18 hundreds, there was a Christian named William Wilberforce.He worked with the London Missionary Society and several other societies to do these type of projects. Then you start seeing America start starting to play a big role in this area, in the 18 hundreds, especially the 19 hundreds. The American Bible Society is, I believe, the largest.[00:21:00] Organization, them and wla Bible translators are two of the biggest organizations in Bible translation, especially Woodcliff. And there is a, like a federation, a group of organizations that they work together. According to Warren's research it costs approximately $30 million to complete a Bible translation.One of the problems is some of these languages it's not so easy to do. You don't necessarily have a font for them, a typeface for them. So if you sit down at a computer there are some languages that are oral only. So when, when they do a translation, it's an oral translation, they will use a microphone, they'll record verse by verse.But, but the they're, they're building databases that help speed up the process. [00:22:00] And the, the process is slowly moving forward. But because it's so, they, they, these bible translators, sometimes when they're questioned about the effectiveness of their work it's really hard for them to be able to answer in a forthright manner.When you're doing ministry, you want it to be effective, you want measurable results. And in the case of Bible publishers, a completed Bible translation is a key metric. Well, how many translations can you produce in a. I believe there are approximately 700 languages waiting to be the scriptures waiting to be translated to them or it's 700, no, I'm sorry.It's 700 [00:23:00] languages I've been translated from Bible times till now. Sorry. Got my figures wrong. It's a lot of work to be done and I think people need to be held accountable. So when it comes to translating the scriptures, one of the things that Uff Bible translators will do is they may send a missionary to an area so that they can learn the language.That's the first thing. You have to know a language before you can translate the Bible into the language. And the next problem is what if they don't have words for certain things? Imagine an Indian tribe would they have a word for the, for sword? Would they have a word for chariot? If [00:24:00]they'd never used chariots before, they would not have a word for it.Well, how would you translate that? Or is there several words that you could use to describe a cart pulled by a horse that would be used in warfare? I mean, so you're trying to figure out some things. It, it's a lot of mental work to it. The money often goes from one organization to another organization.So they will give grants to another organization to support a translation in another language. And. How effective is the organization they're working with? Does that organization file a form nine 90? Do they disclose it? When you look at these organizations, you can see what their salaries are. [00:25:00] You can go to an faa flight registry and look to see if they own any aircraft.If they own jets, it's typically not a good use of donor money. But I mean, there's a lot of key metrics to look at to try to figure out if an organization is being frugal with the money that's given to them. Do you De'Vannon: know who like if a certain person owns, they like the new living Bible or I mean, I mean the Living Bible or the, the New Living translation or the word Bible, like all of those different versions that we have in English.Does somebody own each of those? Barry: I would say in some cases, companies do. Publishers would, sometimes you can have a publisher that creates their own English language translation. So Zondervan [00:26:00] they are the copyright holder for the niv, the new international version. The King James is so old that copyright is expired.Anybody can print a King James Bible. De'Vannon: Cause what I'm wondering is like, so say Zondervan and I've seen their name, you know, in a, in NIV Bibles before, but I never knew what it meant till now. You know? So are they making royalties off of this every time it's sold or downloaded? That you know of. Barry: There are websites.Uverse is one of the biggest ones. They have a Bible. They've created a Bible app, so you can download a Bible app to your phone and it's free. They're another popular new translation is the esv, the English standard version. [00:27:00] And esv bible.org thinks their website and you can actually listen to the, to it or read it on their website for free without even buying a print version.But in some cases they, in the past, they would sell the Bible on dvd. There's one one Bible that there's an oral version of it. It's read by famous actors. They read different chapters of the Bible. The, the way this works is the, sometimes it'll be an academic effort. You'll have translators from different colleges, Christian seminaries.These are professors. They're, they're experts in biblical languages. So they've spent their life [00:28:00] studying the Hebrew and Greek. And so they'll be put on a committee, and so they will work on a Bible translation. This is actually how the NIV was done. They had a committee a working group that oversaw the translation, so.And then what happened was, there was, there was, I don't remember the guy's name, but you can actually look up a lot of these translations in Wikipedia, for example, and you can find out the history of that translation. But there was, there was a guy that, he used the King James, but did not like it. He did not like the old English, and he wanted a more modern, more current English version.And so he was the person that got the ball rolling on, on doing the niv for for college [00:29:00]students working on a, on a, getting a PhD, becoming a doctorate. Getting a doctorate degree. Sometimes they study biblical languages and if they work on a Bible translation that looks great on their resume.So they often do the work. De'Vannon: I wonder who, even in modern day times, you know, when these people are setting down to translate the Bible, are they making sure that there's proper representation? Do you have people of all races, all ethnic backgrounds, all sexual orientation backgrounds? My feeling is that, that that's not quite the case because, you know, when I read through so many different Bible translations and stuff like that, it's like I don't, I don't really, [00:30:00] there's just like, like you were saying, like there's not some words that exist, you know, like from, from Arab may that translate, you know, to English.But tho that's the same for even like current. Like, how can I say this? Like contemporary languages. So like whenever, like whenever I'm in Japan, you know, my friend lives over there and sometimes I go over there to visit her and everything and, and I'll be like, well, how do you say this? And she'll go like, well, we, we don't say that over here.That's just not a part of our culture. That's just not what we do. You know? And so, and that's, and that's for a nation that's currently like alive right now. And so, so what her point to me is like, don't think this because you do this in America, that someone, that they do that everywhere else, all over the globe because it may not be a part of their culture.And so I feel like there is a cultural lack when it comes to [00:31:00] biblical interpretation because not everybody is at the table. So if you have a whole room full of white conservative people, you know, interpreting the Bible, you know, then I feel like that's the reason why we have a. Women, you know, feeling discredited from the way they're described in the Bible and, you know, in other races just completely, you know, left out and oit it and things like that.But do you know anything about, at these organizations actually, who is in there doing it? And if there's like true diversity? Barry: I haven't done a thorough study of that. Original bible translations were generally done by conservative believers. People that I don't wanna say they had an agenda. They their goal was to make the Bible available so that other people could know it better could learn, [00:32:00] could learn the language.Could learn what the Bible to say in their own language. So in the Catholic Church, they used a Latin version of the Bible. That was why their masses were spoken in Latin. And it was done that way in the Catholic church for centuries. So during the Reformation period, you had a number of people try to translate the Bible into other languages making it a language of the people.And some cases it'd be one person doing the translation work. It wasn't a committee. John Woodcliff Tindel, Martin Luther, they primarily, I did their, their bible translation work alone, I believe. Mm-hmm. . Things have obviously changed. But even in the 19 hundreds, there was one, there have been a couple of guys that have done one.Basically, one person has authored a Bible translation or [00:33:00] transcript, or not transcript a paraphrase. For example, the Living Bible is a paraphrase. So a paraphrase is taking a, reading a verse and basically putting it into your own words. That's a paraphrase. When it comes to translations, there is a word for word and there's thought for thought, a word for word.You'd read one word and then you try to translate it into one word, the closest that would translate to that. And a word, a thought for thought. You try to take the thought represented and put it into the same thought. Give you an example in one verse in the Bible, Jesus said, asking it shall be given you seeking.You shall find, knock on the door shall be opening to you. If you read that verse in the Greek, it has a verb tense that we don't really have. It's a continuous action. So when you [00:34:00] read some modern translations of that verse, it says, keep on asking and it'll be given to you. Keep on seeking and you'll find, keep on knocking and the door will be open into you.So I mean, that gives you an idea how a translation works. So, but getting back to your original question the people doing these studies, I don't think they were really concerned a lot with diversity when they first started doing translation work. I think that would be a more recent development. There have been some women that have worked on Bible translations Historically it's been mostly men doing it, the work.Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: But what I'm thankful for is this, is that, you know, knowledge is so much at our fingertips in this day and time that we can go online, we can get our own books, we can interpret the, you know, as much of the original language of the [00:35:00] Bible as we can find, you know, for ourselves. And so it's as painstaking as that may be.And it is not easy because I do it myself. So I like to employ this whenever there's a, a scripture of contests, like, say like the club of passages that the conservative like to use to tell people in my community or we're gonna burn in hell cuz we're not straight, you know, or if there's a script or someone's trying to use to justify slavery or the demeaning of women and stuff like that.And so, you know, I don't go in through the painstaking task of trying to interpret Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Unless it's something that's like a big deal like that and somebody's trying to act like, oh, I absolutely know what this scripture means and there's no other way to look at it, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.And then I go in there myself, and I, and I come up with a different interpretation. And, and the whole point, the whole, the whole thing of that I get out of why we have so many of these different translations is [00:36:00] that the, is that it is such, it's just so subjective. And my whole point of diving into this is to is to get people off of the, the dependency that we can develop on any certain one translation and for God's sakes, not a person's translation.So I wanted people to know there is actually a money trail behind this. And so I feel like that that affects the way it's interpreted. And so, People can draw their own conclusions. I'm a fan of, of interpreting it myself because at this point I don't really trust what anyone has to say about the Bible.You know, I wanna, I just wanna know for myself and when we're reading an interpretation, it's important to us to know that humans interpret it. That, you know, and whatever English is print in English is not the original text. Barry: One of my favorite things is there's a website Bible hub, and they will take one verse and then list, show it in [00:37:00] a bunch of different Bible translations.So you can, like Young's literal translation and, and King James and English Standard version and the New Living Translation. So you can see the different word choices that are used. There are a lot of people that like to see how a favorite verse is translated into different script and different.Uses different word choices. So for me, as a investigative religious fraud, one of my favorite Bible verses a second Timothy I'm sorry, second Peter two verse three, in the King James version, it's talking about these false teachers and it says they will make merchandise of us, of, of people.Basically the idea is they've turned, they turned the church into a marketplace. That's what Jesus noticed when he went into the temple and threw out the money changers. They had turned it into a business, a [00:38:00] marketplace. And you read that same verse in the New Living translation. It's hilarious. It says, and they're greed.They will make a clever lies to get hold of your money. The verses are worded very differently, but I agree 100% with both . De'Vannon: Well, that brings me to my next point. I wanted to talk about two things. These honorariums, they call them, that preachers pay each other when they go to preach at different churches.And then the licensing of music, we'll start with the licensing of music. I personally, as a music writer, I kind of have a problem with the way this seems to be done in churches. So like, if you're gonna, so say if Hillsong Church is gonna create this album, you're gonna license it. And then in order for another church to use it, they're gonna sell it to them.Like, I think another church has to buy the [00:39:00] rights and things like that to use this music. And so for my perspective, if, if God gives me a song, and this is all supposed to be, you know, divinely inspired and everything like that, I feel bad about taking this song and saying, Hey you church, you can use my worship song, but you have pay me first.You know, now if it's a radio station, some sort of syndicated broadcast, that's different to me because that's not like a house of worship where people feel like they need to go. You know, you're listening to the radio or whatever you're streaming, that's on iTunes. I'm okay with that business model for worship music, but charging churches, you know, to do it.I think that that's fucked up. Barry: It is a business. So there is, there's different kinds of rights. There's copyright, there's performance rights, there's [00:40:00] broadcast rights, and there are companies that manage all these different kinds of rights. There have been churches sued for having performed songs for and didn't pay for appropriate license.churches have been sued. I mean, and so that's why it's become a business. Trying to, I lost my train of thought for a moment. Okay. So I took a media law class in college. That was one of the things that we had to learn about was copyright. And copyright has an expiration date. It's changed over the years.So I believe now it's like it expires a certain number of years after the original author dies. And if the [00:41:00] person lives a very long life, it can expire at a very, a long distance into the future. The, there's an organization, creative Commons, creative commons.org is, I believe, their website.They wanted to. Create a movement for the allow of resharing of information. And so they created a number of licenses and these are alternatives to regular copyright. So the way that the US copyright law is written, if you write something, you're the original copyright holder. It can get complicated.If you're hired by a church and you do what's called a work for hire, then the copyright can belong to the church. But for Creative Commons, they created a [00:42:00] public domain license. This is a work would then be in the public domain. Anybody could use it for whatever purpose. They, you could take their lyrics or their music rewrite, rewrite it.Remix it, whatever, and for free, there's no payments required. They have what's called an attribution license where people can use, reuse your original content as long as they give attribution. And so this is often used by photographers. For example, they'll post their pictures online with, at attribution license.Then you can use their photos to illustrate an article that you write and you just credit the photographer. There are licenses that provide for share and share alike. There are some that are for non-commercial only use. [00:43:00] So, and they give you a wide range of, of ways to work with content. And I believe that's a better model than what we're seeing right now.There's a guy named Carl Entz, who I believe we discussed in a previous podcast. He was a preacher at Hillsong. His dad Steven Entz, wrote a book, the Business of Church, and he wrote about copyright. And he suggested that a pastor could could, well normally the church would own the copyright of a sermon.The pastor be a work for a hire, what he says. But what he said that you could also, a pastor could license their sermons to the church. And so I don't feel very good about that. I think when you start doing stuff like that, then you preaching becomes about what can make the most money, [00:44:00]what can you sell the most?And worship music has become big business. Nowadays, fewer people are buying. Albums. Well actually LPs have seen a big increase in sales. It's weird. Who has seen a increase in sales albums? LPs records have had a increase in sales. I think it's people in nostalgia for old albums collectors buying them on vinyl.But a lot of people would buy a song from iTunes or instead of entire album. So records have become a big business. Or the, or gospel worship. Worship music become a big business in the church. Hillsong has made a lot of money. [00:45:00] I believe they sold 20 million albums. That's the Celtic I've seen for Hill.De'Vannon: I don't know this, it's something with this like, like what you're saying with this merchandising and you know, and everything like that, you know, it seems so innocent. Oh, we're just gonna sell a few things and, you know, the way they package it and, you know, in church, you know, here take this sermon homes, you can listen to it again and again and still be blessed and you know, get this book, get this, you know, get these conferences.You know, I used to be a member of the Church of God in Christ, and I had, I reached out to the headquarters. I wanted to go overseas and do a missions working, something like that, you know, and it was very, the missions page on their, on the international headquarters website [00:46:00] didn't have anything there.And so I emailed them. , I got informa, I think I got as far as to the gatekeeper for like the, the bishop maybe, you know, of the, of the whole hand of the whole church of God, Christ. And then they like just stopped responding because I couldn't, you know, I wanted to go do missions. I think there was a way that they would fund it or something like that, but it didn't seem like they really wanted to do it.What they did have up to date though, was their page that had all of their conferences coming up, you know, the speakers and all of that. And I just thought that that was pretty shitty because I'm like, you are always sending these preachers here and there and raising this money, but when I'm trying to talk to you about philanthropy in humanitarian efforts, that's gonna cost you money, then the line went cold, , you know, and so, and and there's a verse in the book of Revelation that has always stuck out to me is in Revelation chapter 18.[00:47:00]And it starts around, you know, verse 10 ish. And this is talking about when they say Babylon, the great is fall. And there's all kinds of different interpretation of what, what they think Babylon means. Is it you know this or is it that? I think Babylon stands for a great many forms of corruption of humanity, but I'm gonna read this anyway.And it says, in the kings of the earth, who have committed for occasion and lived deliciously with her shall BeWell her and lament her when they shall see the smoke of her burning. Standing a far off for the fear for a torment, saying, alas will last that great city, Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is your judgment come And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buys their merchandise anymore.The merchandise of gold and silver and precious stones and of pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet and all thy wood and all manner of vessels of ivory and all [00:48:00] manner vessels of most precious wood and of brass and iron and marble and cinnamon and odors and ointments and frankincense and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and beasts and sheep and horses and chariots and slaves and souls of men.And I just thought it was very interesting after listing this really, really, really long list of material things that it ends unlike humanitarian issues and the destruction of people. So as we're talking about all of this buying and trading and selling in the temple, I personally feel like from the churches to like a lot of these social media companies and things like that, and they're haste to make money and then they're greed and stuff like that.They're sacrificing people in the process. And I think that, that this verse is talking that these verses that I just [00:49:00] read are talking about that. But what do you think about the, what I just read Barry: There is different ways of interpreting the book of Revelation. It's very fascinating. So it deals with end times.A word for that is eschatology study. End times. And basically the Bible teaches that wickedness is gonna bound. People's hearts grow cold because of, of wickedness lawlessness of people and because of hypocrisy. And because of that, God will eventually pour out his wrath upon mankind and there will be punishment for sin.And there will, people have made commerce [00:50:00] an idol. They've made the entertainment industry an idol, social media and idol, all these kind of things, idols, they put ahead of God and things that they hold dear have become idols and they will see their idols destroyed. That's one of the ways that I see that passage.The. Experience that you had with Koji? With the conferences, I actually wrote an article about the these conference businesses the hum the speaking fees of honorariums. And I think there's a legitimate need and opportunity for people to network. A conference can be a great place to network and meet people.I've gone to film festivals, for [00:51:00] example. I previously worked in the film industry years ago, and so going to a film festival, you meet lots of like-minded people. You meet writers, filmmakers, actors, actresses people that wanna get their start in the industry. And so, You meet people and develop friendships that way, and then you go see their movie on when they have a movie coming out, and I know them.So it, it's a different experience than seeing a movie by nobody, you know. And so I do enjoy the aspects of networking. I've been to conferences before and that was my favorite part about it. But for the motive of the people throwing on the conference, what is their motive? And we know that like not this week, but the previous week so this would've been around the end of July [00:52:00] or beginning of August, my mind's have gone.Kenneth Copeland had his conference it's called the Southwest Believes Convention, and. It was in Fort Worth, Texas. Televangelist like Jesse de Plans would fly into Fort Worth to preach and then fly back to where he is from, and then the next day, fly right back to Fort Worth and then fly back to new Orleans.I don't think he likes to stay in hotels. Just a theory I have. Why would a person make multiple trips to day after day? It's weird to me cause those are, those trips, those flights cost thousands of dollars and but to put on a convention like that, you have to bring in a lot of money to pay for all those [00:53:00]speakers.And if you're doing that, then do you pay for their transportation? Do you pay for their jet to fly? I mean, that could have been 20,000, $40,000. I don't know. I'm guessing at a bare minimum it costs $20,000 for all those flights. I mean, you have to pay for the fuel, you have to pay for the pilots.And that's just an unnecessary expense. The conference business I think it's a lot of gamemanship. You speak at my conference and I'll speak at yours. So it's a way of self-promoting each other. I wrote an article about honorariums. It's on the Trinity Foundation website, and I, I looked at nine 90 s for non-profit organizations.[00:54:00] Sometimes they will disclose honorarium revenue. Sometimes they'll disclose honorarium expenses. So for example, some pastors or or ministry leaders, They speak at a location, but you have to pay 'em a speaking fee of their organization. So that's revenue to the organization. And so that's how that shows up.For honorary expenses, sometimes like when you host a conference, you're paying an outside speaker and they list that on their statement of expenses page. There are organizations that will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in honorariums. In the past, TBN did that, that have special guests for their beon and for some of their a praise the Lord broadcasts.And so they would spend literally, I think in some cases, over $700,000 a year on speaking honorariums. De'Vannon: I know when I was at one church in Southern California, they, you know, they had a speaker there, they already paid for her to come down. [00:55:00] They decided they want her to stay for one more sermon. And they were like, we'll give her $10,000 to, to preach again, you know, for one more hour or whatever.And of course she was like, yes, Lord. You know, and everything like that. And the highest I saw them go was maybe like 30,000, you know, now we're talking about for one sermon for about an hour. You know, to me that's exorbitant because it was US tithing, you know, and paying for them. It's not like the preacher was doing that.So what you're saying is Right, so these preachers have this whole brotherhood or whatever to include the sisters too. And they're like, okay, you got your church, I got mine. We're gonna come speak at each other's church, and we're gonna pay each other about 10 to 30,000 each. Right. Cool. And so , now the.Barry: The craziest thing I've heard of is a seed twice. So this is how I consider it a scam. The seed twice. [00:56:00] So Kenneth Copeland does this. You give him, wait, he gives your ministry a donation and then you give him a donation. It's a seed twice. So , you're getting your money back. , in some De'Vannon: cases. Wait, say that Barry: again?they call it a seed twice. Some you donate to one organization and then that organization donates back to you.De'Vannon: which organization? His, he's talking about his church. Barry: Yeah. Eagle Mountain International Church. It's also known as Kenneth Copeland Ministries. But yeah, he does this C twice zone thing. He gives donations to different organizations and then they give him a donation.De'Vannon: I don't get it. So he's gonna do, so he's personally donating to another church. His Barry: organization gives a donation, his church donates to an organization, and that [00:57:00]donation, that organization donates back to him. What's the point? You get your money back. It looks great on, Hey, we spent this amount of money on ministry, but you're getting your money backThat's what it looks De'Vannon: like to me. So it, so Kenneth Cole Ministry is gonna donate a thousand dollars to feed the children or whatever, but then they're going to also donate a thousand dollars back to Kenneth Cole Ministry. Sometimes Barry: they may not donate the full amount but I think it's a way for a bunch of organizations to put on a balance sheet or something that we, they can promote it.They can say, Hey, our audited financial statement, we gave this amount of money to ministry. De'Vannon: Hmm. Oh, so they're like scratching each other. There's backs in a way, and they're moving money around to manipulate the tax system. Okay, you Barry: give me the money and then I get it back. I mean, [00:58:00] that's what it looks like.They'd probably eject to the way that I describe it, but that's what it looks like to me. , but that's what they call it. See, twice soon. De'Vannon: They probably rejected this whole podcast , not just this episode. , it's the whole thing altogether. You know, the people who raised me though, like my evangelist Nelson, who I talk about a lot, you know, you know, they, when they traveled the country, and the world preaching and they always said that they never charged people to go.They were like, if God's gonna send me over here or, or whatever, then he's also going to provide, now I'm talking about people who were probably born in like the twenties, 1920s, thirties, forties, that sort of thing. So these people were old. And so I think she was 80 when she died about three, four years ago.And so you can do the math to see probably when she was born, but she never, you know, she felt like [00:59:00] God was calling her to Washington DC to go preach. And she had a relationship with that church as I understand it. You know, we, you know, might raise money to help her go, or she would pay for herself or something like that.But she wasn't like, I ain't showing up unless you have this amount of money. You know, it wasn't anything like that. Now they did once they would get there, you know, if they wanted to raise a speaker. A speaker's offering, then it's whatever that amount would be. It's not like it had to be a minimum for it to show up, you know, for the speaker to show up.And so I feel like her style was more in line with how the apostles started doing Jesus's ministry. You know, they took what they had and went out and preached the word and they kind of took care of these, of these preachers when they got to different towns. I don't find anywhere in the scripture where go and preach the gospel, but only do it if you're paid a minimum amount of money.Barry: you know, I don't, that [01:00:00] verse isn't there,De'Vannon: And so what this is, is the church being very hypocritical and wanting to look like the world. And so if it's something that the church doesn't want you to do, drink, masturbate, have sex outside of marriage, or generally enjoy your life. They're like, you don't want to be like the world. We can't have you being worldly rah ra ra, ra.But when it comes down to finances, they want to pattern themselves after Fortune 500 companies and they wanna pattern themselves after the world. They're like, why shouldn't we make, it's the same thing as a corporate executive does. Why shouldn't we make the same thing every other speaker does? It's because we're in the church doesn't mean we shouldn't be paid.Right. So then it's okay to be like the world . Barry: Well, some of these preachers, I don't think they believe a word they preach . And I don't wanna name names, but we have an [01:01:00] informant that told us about a pastor that was an atheist. He didn't pray. And in fact, I just mentioned that in one of the articles that I posted this morning.I can't identify the preacher's name. He's definitely on our radar. But there's a preacher that he's an atheist agnostic. He doesn't believe what happened is it, I'd wrote an article about privacy laws preventing transparency. Attorney Foundation did a report on him to the irs and we're not able to know the status of that report because of the way the IRS laws are.But yeah, preacher doesn't believe the Bible. It's just a scam to get money. Preaches the Prosperity Gospel, but he doesn't believe the Bible. And and there are, there are [01:02:00] a number of preachers that I would put in the same category. Obviously I can't read their minds. There's a guy named Mike Murdoch.I have serious doubts that he believes what he, some of the stuff that he preaches, Tilton. Robert Tilton. I seriously be doubt he believes some of the things that he's said. Again, that's my own opinion. But I just, some of the things they say, don't look authentic to me, don't look real. And some of these people are the ones really pushing the prosperity gospel.De'Vannon: It's I've observed a pattern, like when I was still in the church, they would do this thing and they were doing like escalating offering amounts, so they would be like, , they would get every one all pumped up. We want you to give a hundred dollars and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or perhaps deescalating.It would go [01:03:00] both ways. Sometimes they would make a whole big deal out of somebody who they were to give a thousand or a hundred, and then they'd go, okay, well if you can't do that, then we'll take 80 huge blessings come your way, miracles and all of that, not that, and we'll take 60, you know, whatever. Then they'll work their way down the 20.You know, at first I thought maybe it was a legit thing, but then I noticed other preachers doing this at different churches, you know, if I'm recalling correctly. So it's like they were borrowing best practices and then saying that it was divinely inspired every time they did. . And one time when I was at this church in Southern California, I went to go give, like the last few dollars I had, it was like three or $4.I'm thinking I'm gonna be like, you know, the lady who gave the two mites or whatever and be honored, the preacher, he was like, I don't need this . You know, he like, he like rejected my offering because it wasn't at his minimum. And so because they have this mind, [01:04:00] right? They have this, these preachers, they have this mindset that they're worth so much.They're like, I shouldn't, you know, don't give me any less than $20. That's, that seems to be the standard. And they were like, I don't want an offering. If you're gonna gimme less than 20. And then they would turn around and try to prime us up and be like, if you have somebody out there who's broke them, even let them ride in your car, you don't want that rubbing off on you.You know, if they don't, you know if there's somebody who's gonna pull you down. I'm like, well, Jesus wouldn't have told me to not give someone a ride because they don't have, they don't make over 40,000 a year or a hundred thousand or whatever, you know? Yikes. , Barry: did you see the news about the recent preacher that was allegedly robbed of him and his wife of jewelry worth a million dollars?De'Vannon: That does sound vaguely familiar, but Barry: just recently, a couple weeks ago, this event happened on a Sunday and [01:05:00] in New York City, and the preacher looks like a conman. I mean, you, like, how does a pastor afford a Rolls Royce? I mean, you look in his Instagram videos and he does some of these videos inside his car, and if you look on some on the headrests, they have the double R, that's the Rolls Royce symbol there, and you're like, okay, are you using church funds to pay for this lifestyle?The IRS has a standard for pay. It's called a reasonableness. If something is not considered, if it's considered unreasonable, then it should be illegal. Or you should be taxed extra for it. That's I'm in regards to non-profit salaries. And churches are nonprofits. De'Vannon: Yeah, I'm looking at this guy now.Well, perhaps the Lord made it right, you know, he [01:06:00] robbed others. Now his ass got robbed. You know, God is not mock. Whatever you, so you will reap. The Lord didn't tell me he was, this was his karma. I'm just saying. I don't know. Seemed like with all that money, he might have had better security. , Barry: there's a person on the stage sitting in a chair or, or next to the stage, let say this person is sitting in a chair when this so-called robbery happens.And it's interesting watching that person's mannerisms as he is watching this go down. He does not look scared to me anyway. And when I see that, I'm wondering, okay, is this insurance fraud? Is he, is this actually a scam? I mean, that's what it looks like to me. I mean, obviously I'm not a juror and I don't have any inside information, but it doesn't look legitimate to me.Doesn't look authentic. De'Vannon: Oh, so you think it's like a scam and he knew it was gonna happen. ? Barry: Yes. Totally. De'Vannon: Looks like a scam. . [01:07:00] No, it has been done. It has been done. So, so knowing all these things we know about churches, People like you and I work to inform people so that they can be more aware of where they're spending their time, where they're spending their money, where they're investing their trust.People still are gonna go to these churches no matter what we say. Some people might stop. So why is it that we fall for this prosperity Gospel? Why do we keep going to these churches? I did it like I'm, I'm, I sat there, listened to these people telling me things that I knew was bullshit, that that preacher rejected my dollars that I wanted to give them.And I still kept going to that church. You know why? I know I started going to these churches? Cause it was just really nice to hear a preacher being somewhat positive rather than growing up in the south where everything's a sin and you just can't do any fucking thing. So it was a lesser of two evils.But the person I am now, I'm like, you know what? I don't need any [01:08:00] church at all. I know how to go to God for myself. So, Why do you think people still put themselves in front of this abuse, even with, you know, all this knowledge that we're giving them? Barry: When I was a teenager, we had an event one night with our youth group.It was a lock in. And so in the midst of all these entertaining things that we did, games, et cetera, we had some Bible studies and et cetera and discussion times. And we had a discussion about what did you wanna become, what did you wanna be in life? And as our group when to discuss that sort of like became a thing.Everybody wanted to be successful. And I think that's right at the heart of the Prosperity Gospel, people wanna be valid. They wanna be seen as a success. They do not want, they wanna be [01:09:00]self-reliant. They don't wanna depend on anyone for anything. So when a preacher preaches that you can get your heart's desire, if you do this you'll get, well, if you do this, your debts will be paid if you do this.People sometimes are desperate and it's sometimes the desperate people that are donating to the Prosperity Gospel preachers. Often it's the poorest of the poor that donate to 'em. We know for a fact that there was one preacher that was deliberately send letters to people in low income zip codes.They give more than wealthy people.I mean, it's, it's sad targeting the poorest of the poor, but that's what they do. And it's a white [01:10:00] preacher targeting neighborhoods that are, a lot of them are black. I call it racism. What he's doing I believe it's absolutely evil. What how this is being done and why do people keep doing it?Some are desperate. Some have bought into the Prosperity Gospel. They, they wanna be rich. I think it's, sometimes it's people, they just haven't heard the truth and they're, they don't, they've, because of that, they accepted a lie. If they had a preacher instead of preaching the prosperity gospel was, would, would teach things like.there's a Bible verse where Jesus said, the poor will always be with you. You didn't say you everybody would be rich. If, if, if they, you had a preacher that was telling them a different message. [01:11:00] I think some people would be, more people would be open to it, but it just, that's all they hear. And one one of the verses that I mentioned earlier was the verse where asking shall be given you, seeking you shall find.Seeking is a big part of scripture. There's a Bible verse in the Old Testament where it says, it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, the glory of kings to seek it out. Mm-hmm. . So God deliberately conceals the truth. He wants us to look for it. There's another verse in the Bible that says to study, to show yourself approved on demand so you can rightfully divide the word of truth.Basically, we need to study the word on our own. We can't rely on just someone to tell us everything. And so I think people have not been taught to seek the scriptures to learn for themselves. They've not been taught to do [01:12:00] that. De'Vannon: No, not until now, because motherfuckers like you and I are preaching, you know, you know, autonomy to people.I want people to not only study the Bible, but to study these motherfucking preachers because you know, you're investing, like, you're literally trusting your entire eternity and soul to this person on stage. You know, they have an entity to run, so no, they're not going to tell you to go. They go. So follow God without them, they need you to keep coming back to the church.I don't have an agenda other than I want you to be spiritually fit and spiritually independent so that if those churches fall, if organized, religion should fall and you don't know what the hell is gonna happen from one day to the next. You're not sitting there. Like in a spiritual limbo. Cause you don't know what to do.You can't go to church, you can't do this. The saddest thing that I heard from the war in Ukraine was there was a Ukrainian lady who was fighting against the Russians and she was like, I'm not afraid to die. I'm just afraid to die because I haven't had a [01:13:00] chance to make it to confession. Like, you know, that's too much control for the church to have over somebody's eternity, for you to think that you can even repent until you can go and talk to a physical human.There was no point in Jesus coming if it was gonna be all that. And so, so I want people to. study their leaders, like we were talking about before we hopped on this broadcast. I want people to find out when these different, all these teachers and preachers are running around these churches, when the hell are these people really called?You know? Are they really called? How do you know that, you know, there has to be some sort of reason in the Bible. No, Lord, you know, appears to people. There's a moment when they're not called. There's a moment where there is, you know, something has to change. You know? Was it a dream? Was it a vision? You know, don't just accept them because they're up on stage and, and we're wrapping up now.So after I say all this, I'm gonna let you say whatever you wanna say and have a last word. I, I do not believe that just because somebody is the son of a preacher or they [01:14:00] inherit a ministry, I don't, I don't subscribe to this whole, everybody in the family is called, you know, you know, God. I just, I just don't, because in the Bible,I don't see like many situations and I can't, I can't think of any right now where the mom, the dad, the aunts, the uncles, all the kids, everybody has a special mission from God. I don't see family ministries, you know, you know, that span generations in these, you know, in these books. And so, and even kings, you know, you know, the, you know, the bloodline of Abraham, you know, is different, you know, and then we're talking about even then just the son was the leader and everything like that.And then even at that, he technically wasn't a priest, you know? And so, you know, so this, everybody's called, I question it. And so what I'm seeing now is like, These, these kids or these preachers are starting to preach. You know, I saw one [01:15:00] not too long ago, you know, I'm not gonna say the preacher's name, but you know, both parents are rich.Now he's starting to preach and he's talking about telling people you know, about being poor and how they're gonna make it, you know, and they hard times and everything like that. And I'm all like, boy, what the fuck you know about hard times? You know, I don't, especially financial hard times, you know, so these, these children are preaching what they know people want here, but you have not lived on food stamps, social security, food and security, not knowing how you're gonna keep the lights on.That is not a life, you know, because you were born a millionaire. And so now that you are a preacher's kid and you were born rich, you're gonna get up there and, and speak this package match message that you know you can sell to your audience. I don't. I don't know. That just pisses me off.Barry: My dad was a minister and he felt [01:16:00] called of God to become a minister. It's not what he wanted to do. My dad wanted to be a professional baseball player. He loved sports, but he ended up becoming a minister. His title was Minister of Education and Outreach. He worked in several Baptist churches over his career.And so in his job he would train Bible teachers and recruit Bible teachers for the church. He would visit the hospitals each week he would visit nursing homes each week. And he enjoyed serving people that they couldn't do anything for. Going to see somebody that's sick in a hospital, seeing somebody in a nursing home that's weak and they can't go anywhere.He would bring joy to their lives. Some of these people, they wouldn't have any family members visiting them during the week and just him going to, and to see them, [01:17:00] it made their day. And so that was the type of home that I grew up in. One time there was a family they moved to where we lived in Louisiana.They were, he was job hunting, the dad, the husband they had a newborn child and they're broke. Homeless. We let them live with us and our house for months, I think about six months. So we took in the homeless. That's what I believe real Christianity's about. It's about sacrifice, not success.It's about taking up your cross and following me, and that doesn't include a dollar bill and profits. De'Vannon: Yeah, that sounds super sincere. You know, his part, he sounds like he was accessible to people and not like the big guy on stage. You know, who we have to stand in line [01:18:00] with. Maybe they'll sign our book even though they're our pastorBarry: When our Sunday service would end Sunday morning, my dad almost always would try to be at the back door of the church. When people were leaving, he would greet people. So he would shake people's hands and say hi. He wanted to greet everybody. He wanted people to get to know who he was.My dad loved visitation. He loved visiting people in their homes. That's, again, something that's going outta style. Fewer and fewer people doing are doing church visitation. Also, there's more and more of a mindset of my home as my castle. It's a place of privacy. And so you see less of that,

My Steps to Sobriety
316 DeVannon Hubert: Sex, Drugs and Jesus - How to grow from Drug Addiction, Dealing & Homelessness

My Steps to Sobriety

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 1, 2022 79:24


De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug addiction, drug dealing, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. De'Vannon is also the host of the Sex, Drugs and Jesus Podcast and owns DownUnder Apparel - A lingerie and sportswear store for men and women. Aside from this, De'Vannon is an Honorably discharged veteran of the United States Air Force and a graduate of both Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and the Hypnosis Motivation Institute. He also graduated from the Medical Training College of Baton Rouge and is a Licensed Massage Therapist. De'Vannon's story is about surviving the social outskirts and finding one's way back to a balanced path. 3 top tips for my audience: 1. Get clear on what you believe spiritually 2. Try to put yourself in other people's shoes 3. Focus your energy on improving yourself rather than correcting others Social media and contact info. How can viewers contact you after the interview? Please list your social media handles and websites. This is how they will appear in the show notes!  https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon/ https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/ https://twitter.com/TabooTopix https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnGqau-3OC4zMi0hgGJeusA #SexDrugsAndJesus #Religion #Truth #Trauma #LGBTQIA #TrueCrime

Currently by Studio Prometheus
Sex, drugs, and Bahamian real estate. Examining the warning signs of FTX's collapse w/ Josh Goltry

Currently by Studio Prometheus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 25, 2022 61:43


Today Ryan Pallotta breaks down what's happening with Josh Goltry. Josh is the Founder and Chief Investment Officer at JAG Capital.   This entire chat focuses on the collapse of what was, until recently, the third-largest crypto exchange by volume—FTX.   Josh starts by describing his initial thoughts on the story when it broke, listing a slew of incongruencies that were beginning to arouse suspicion around Co-Founder Sam Bankman-Fried.     He then describes how so many seemingly sophisticated investors bought into what amounts to a Ponzi scheme and talks us through what he describes as "piggybacking."   Josh then talks about how FTX's collapse could be a good thing for crypto in the long term and what this all means for the last major crypto onramp in the US—Coinbase.

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #79: Suffering In Silence, Panic Attacks, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder & Why It's Good To Run Out Of Drugs, With Erik & Marc, Hosts - From Survivor To Thriver Podcast

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 24, 2022 76:51


INTRODUCTION: Co-hosts Erik DaRosa and Marc Fernandes are upending the front-end of mental health conversations. Each week, they tackle different mental health topics through honest and relatable “kitchen table” conversations with real people who are helping to shatter mental health stigmas and find their voices. We aim to normalize discussions around mental health topics and remind our audience they are not alone, there is strength in community and "it's perfectly ok to not always be ok." Our podcast is more than just a podcast. It is a

Dumb Blonde
Doobie & Hylyte: Sex, Drugs, and the Music Industry

Dumb Blonde

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 23, 2022 46:20


To kick off a new season, Bunnie welcomes her brothers from another mother and long time friends Doobie and Hylyte. The talented musicians talk about their rise to fame in the hip hop, rap, and rock world, how they came to meet and get to know Jelly and Bunnie, the opportunities that made a major splash in their career, and how they navigate all the craziness that comes with making music and touring. Before playing a CRAZY drug and sex themed game of Never Have I Ever with Bunnie, Doobie and Hylyte talk about what's next in terms of dropping new music and taking it on the road.  Bunnie: Website  Hylyte: IG  Doobie: IG   

BEING Trans
Sex, Drugs, and High Cholesterol

BEING Trans

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 21, 2022 45:02


Buzz gets some troubling news from his doctor and starts to confront the realities of his physical limits, leading him to shop around for some new exercise experiences. But when he pushes it a bit too far, Gloria and Henri are not pleased with him. Meanwhile, Gloria learns more about -- and embraces -- some of the modern ideas of "youth today," such as legal marijuana edibles and ethical non-monogamy, and brings Buzz along to learn more about the polyamorous lifestyle at a gathering. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #78: Live Hypnotherapy Session + The Benefits & History Of Hypnotherapy, With Elaine Perliss, C. Ht, Certified Hypnotherapist & Board Certified Instructor

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 17, 2022 67:36


INTRODUCTION: Elaine Perliss is a Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist and State Board Certified Instructor who assists her clients in achieving success. Her passion is helping people overcome roadblocks, create positive changes and develop life-long strategies for personal and professional well-being.Elaine is a top-honors graduate of Hypnosis Motivation Institute, the only nationally accredited college for Hypnotherapy. In addition, she holds a Master Practitioner Certifications in Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) and Therapeutic Imagery. In Elaine's words, “Helping people is not as much what I do… it's who I am. Elaine helps her clients in-person at her Sherman Oaks and Tarzana offices or by telephone and Skype with clients worldwide. Among her areas of expertise, Elaine helps individuals and families struggling with the negative effects of addiction as well as creating personal growth through Mindful Awareness practices. Other specialty areas of focus include career challenges and transformations, overcoming negative emotions such as fear, anxiety and anger, dealing with profound loss, letting go of negative habits like smoking, procrastination, overeating and much more. Prior to her career as a Certified Hypnotherapist, Elaine spent many years as an Entertainment Industry executive, where she combined the art of multitasking with her high-paced and stress-filled career and her life. Today, she combines her rich and rewarding hypnotherapy practice with her life as a wife, mother, doting aunt, caretaker for her menagerie of pets, avid gardener, runner and lover of all things in nature.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      A Live Hypnotherapy Session·      The Benefits Of Hypnotherapy·      This History Of Hypnotherapy·      Different Modalities Of Hypnotherapy ·      Myths Addressed & Debunked ·      Subconscious Vs. Conscious Mind CONNECT WITH ELAINE: Website: http://elaineperliss.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/ElainePerlissLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elaine-perliss-a76134ba/YouTube: https://bit.ly/3tzoMuYTwitter: https://twitter.com/ElainePerliss  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: I would like everyone to meet Elaine Perliss. She's a part of my behind the scenes team that helps keep me tuned up and functioning in a way that I can be of benefit to society. She is my personal hypnotherapist. She was also my instructor when I was in school at the Hypnosis Motivation Institute to become a licensed hypnotist, which I am.So please watch and listen to learn all about the valuable benefits of [00:01:00] hypnosis when administered my licensed and trained professional.Welcome back everyone to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host van in Hubert, and today I have a very special guest for very special episode. Her name is Elaine Peris, and you have heard me talk about hypnosis, hypnotherapy. I appreciate from the rooftop, the mountaintop from the bottom of the valley, y'all.And now I'm revealing to the world a person who is my personal hypnotherapist. Her name is Elaine. I've had on the show previously my personal physician assistant, so I love dissecting every aspect of my life for y'all to see. You know what? People are gonna talk about me anyway, so I'm giving you bitches, something to talk about.Elaine, how are you? Elaine: I am. Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate that. I'm honored to be [00:02:00] working together with you today. De'Vannon: Absolutely. Now y'all, when I was a student at the Hypnosis Motivation Institute, Elaine was one of my professors, and that's how I met her. She has her own private PR practice and everything like that.And that website is elaine peris.com. That's e L A i n E P E R L i s s.com. All this information will go in the showy notes, as it always does, along with any of her social media and stuff like that. She has a fascinating FAQ page on her website too, and which will answer a lot of your questions about hypnotherapy and hypnosis.So then let's dive right into it. Tell us about the history of hypnotherapy. Elaine: Oh, that'd be great. Thank you so much. You know, a lot of people think that it's only been around for a little while, but it's surprising that it's been around for over 5,000 years. In fact, the first evidence of its use was back in Egypt over 5,000 years [00:03:00] ago.And back then they called them sleep temples. And these sleep temples are where they went and they utilized an expectation and an overload, and a lot of the same tools that we use today. Interesting. Anyways, it continued to evolve, it continued to grow in different cultures, and it spread throughout the entire world.And fast forward a few thousand years to the 17 hundreds, this gentleman, his Dr. Anton Mesmer came along and he was so excited about it, and its medicinal opportunities and possibilities. He actually named it mesmerism, and that's where they, you know, if you think of the word, I'm mesmerized. That's where it came.Anyways, fast forward his fir, his followers, they continued to make progress and it continued to grow and evolve. At this point, it was mostly be mostly in the European countries, France, Germany, et cetera. Then in the early [00:04:00] 18 hundreds it really expanded as more and more, more and more medical applications were discovered.For example, anesthesia, sciatica, and lots and lots of really surprising results, which made them even more excited about this. You know, seemingly new technology, but it is literally a new application and they kept finding more and more uses. So then they called it lucid sleep. But in the mid 18 hundreds there was this gentleman, Dr.James Braid. He said, Wow, wait a second. I can use this for emotional connections to physical illness. And I think this is more like hypnosis, so I'm gonna call it hypnotism. And it basically, that's a Greek word for. It was sort of a light state of trans. So anyways, more and more evolution, more studies, more scientific.The scientific community really got on board at this point, and there were a lot of medical applications in the 18 [00:05:00] hundreds. And then by the late 18 hundreds, it was actually being ca taught in universities, medical universities. As part of their actual training in the 19 hundreds, it really started to expand.Many of you have heard of Dr. Sigman Freud. He's the founder of psychoanalysis, and he started dabbling in hypnosis for the purpose of mental health issues. And he was an early pioneer in that area. Now he also had a number of followers and they all started to expand it and grow it in the. Field. In fact, it would come to be called Conscious Autosuggestion.It's had a lot of names over the years Anyways, it was used widely in World War I and World War II for trauma, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, and other war related emotional and mental illnesses. Now, in the 1920s, you might remember that was the beginning of, you know, [00:06:00] vaudeville and things like that. Well, stage hypnosis really.Stage at that point, and that exploded the awareness of hypnosis. And the, one of the, one of the people who went to one of those, those events, one of those shows, his name was Dr. Milton Erickson. Now, Dr. Milton Erickson, he suffered from polio, and so he decided to use some of these techniques for his own physical and emotional ailments that he had.And so he went on to become probably the foremost, one of the foremost doctors of hypnotherapy in the 20th century or in the 19 hundreds. He called it behavioral modification. And he, again, he moved on to greatness. Now in the 20th century, the later 20th century hypnotherapy, Hypnosis Motivation Institute came along in 1968 and it's been going alive and well now for well over 50 [00:07:00] years.And it is now called hypnotherapy. And it's awareness, it's acceptance, it's therapeutic and scientific value continue to grow exponentially. And as applications are continued to be discovered more and more, it's, it's use and its acceptance and its validity and its effectiveness. Grow and grow and grow.And that brings you to today and who knows where it's going from here. De'Vannon: Right. And then you mentioned the Hypno Motivation Institute. I just wanna let everybody know that, you know, our school was the first accredited school in the country for hypnotherapy. You got some good ones out there, you got some bad ones out there, you really, really do.But this one was the first. Elaine: Yes. Can I add a little bit to that? By all means. Oh, good. One of the things, I mean I've been affiliated with the school for over 20 years, since the turn of the century. Anyways, I've been affiliated with the school for a long time, and not too long ago they came up with a degree [00:08:00] program and it's in mind body psychology.And so now, not only was it the first and only nationally accredited college for hypnotherapy, then it became, you know, when other schools started you know, jumping onto the bandwagon while we're now the first degree oriented. And so it has jumped into the realm of mind body psychology, and it is taken it exponential.De'Vannon: So, yeah, how about that? I might have to go back to school, y'all. I Elaine: know. It's, I just graduated. I now have my degree and I am very, very happy. Oh, congratulations De'Vannon: girl. Elaine: Clinical hypnotherapist, . Anyway, so that's, De'Vannon: so there is, there's modalities of within hip and therapy, so I want people to know that it's not just hypnotherapy solid, like, so say for instance, neurolinguistic programming, nlp.Super popular. I know people who have like just NLP [00:09:00] licenses, but I learned how to do this when I was in school for hypnotherapy. So can you mention some of the other modalities? Elaine: Sure. Well, let me talk about NLP or neurolinguistic programming. Dr. Milton Erickson was one of the, the guy who was very, the doctor that was really prominent in hypnosis.He was one of the very earliest proponents and subjects that the people who developed NLP used as a subject. So he's been involved with NLP since, Well, he was involved with NLP since its beginning, and it's an incredible method. It's how you do what you do and mix together with the behavioral modification aspects of hypnosis.It's sort of like a hand in a. But there are many other techniques that are used. For example, therapeutic imagery. A lot of people are familiar with that. And it's basically talking to the subconscious and finding out what the subconscious needs because all behavior comes from the [00:10:00]subconscious. There are other techniques like emdr, e, f, T, and those are tapping methods that you can use.There are hundreds of different methods and modalities and more and more discovered every day. Biofeedback inner child, just loads and loads of them. De'Vannon: Okay. Kick ass man. So tell us about your personal history. What got you into hyp hyp hypnotherapy, and what are some of your personal qualifications?Elaine: Thank you. I appreciate that. I am a clinical hypnotherapist and I am a senior staff instructor over at HMI Hypnosis Motivation Institute. And I, most recently, and I, again, I mentioned that I just most recently got continuing my education. So all through the years that I've been doing this again for, so for, you know, for a long time I'm continuing to grow and learn and evolve.And so I have been in this field [00:11:00] since you guys probably remember nine 11. It was a little bit of an emotional time, and it was a little bit of an up evil in this country. So a lot of people were kind of at odds. Well, right before that just prior to that, my life, my personal life was turned upside down.In the late 1990s, my husband at that time, about 20 years, he became very ill, and we almost lost him, but he had a long hospitalization and happily recovered and we're alive and kicking today, which is great. But in the, in the year 2000, I'm so grateful. In the year 2000, that's when everything hit the wall.My in a span of two months, I lost my father. In May, June, I lost my sister-in-law suddenly to a heart attack, and in July, I lost my mother. Well, I realized then that I was a helping, caring, sharing person because I was the primary caregiver and I realized there's more to life. So I had a bigger purpose and [00:12:00] I knew that my marketing executive days in the highly successful but very toxic environment of the entertainment business were, they're numbered.So I did my own recovery work and discovered hypnotherapy to be one of the best things since slice bread. It literally helped to change my life. So that's, and then fast forward to today, I'm still doing it and I'm loving it every last minute of it. De'Vannon: You know what, there's nothing like trauma to, to push us into our destiny.Into our futures and everything like that. It happens that way so much. Elaine: It's so true. It's so true. We go through a really traumatic experience. Basically what happens, people come to hypnosis and hypnotherapy when the drama, trauma, discomfort, pain, fear, whatever it is that they're in, becomes more untenable, more scary, more uncomfortable than the fear of whatever [00:13:00] the change might be in hypnosis.And so when people are courageous enough and call a hypnotherapist and say, Yikes, I need help. Can you help me to feel better? It's because they're so Exhausted. Feeling exhausted. You know, they're traumatized. They want to feel better. They want quality of life. I mean, it's what turns a lot of people around.I know that Devon and you and I have been working together and you were in a place of, you know what? I'm tired of dragging along the old stuff that I used to have and I don't want it anymore. It's not serving me anymore. And so hypno asy therapy because we're behaviors and because we help people by accessing the power of our subconscious mind, that's what helps us to make changes so much easily, So much more effect.because we are using not only our conscious, but our [00:14:00] subconscious, you know, our conscious thoughts and our subconscious motivation. De'Vannon: How much of our mind is subconscious versus how much of it is conscious? Elaine: Be a little bit surprising if you knew for, for your viewers and your listeners, imagine in iceberg, you know, when you see an iceberg and you see this pretty big iceberg, well, it's pretty big, but that's about 10 to 12% of the whole mass of the iceberg.So that would be representative of the conscious mind, all the part that's below the water, the part that you can't see, that 88 to 90%, that is our subconscious, that's our autopilot, our habits, our motivations, our behaviors, our emotions, all the stuff that we do without thinking. If I was gonna throw a ball at you, you would not think about ducking or moving to the left or the right, because your subconscious is there to protect you and to keep you safe and alive and well.And so once you learn something, [00:15:00] it becomes part of your automatic behavior. But what ends up happening is we might learn something like, for example, someone RA raised in a war zone, they may learn that loud noises are a bad thing because that means a bomb is dropping in their front yard. But after a while the war is over, they're going along and having a nice life, and then a car backfires and they are completely sorry for the word triggered.They're totally activated again. And then what ends up happening is it's almost like they are that child completely. And that's a tangible example, but that's basically what happens. Maybe you learn something as a child that worked for you when you were a child, when you were in a danger zone, but today that danger doesn't exist.But your behavior and your habit, the stuff that's, that 90% that's still alive and well and your subconscious until we go in and we replace it with something [00:16:00] else that you want more. And that's how it works. De'Vannon: Absolutely. Fantastic. So let's talk about some of the myths within the hip, hip hypnosis field.Tell us what it, how it, how it can be presented falsely. Then what it actually is. Elaine: Absolutely. Sometimes people, you know, you know, I talked about a little bit about it being on the stage, the stage hypnosis, and what happened that it screamed to popularity because it was something that was fun to watch and you could really dramatize it.So people would think that you have to bark like a dog or clock like a chicken. Or after a hypnosis session, I'd call you up and I'd say, Rosebud, and you'd run out and kill somebody. Well, the fact of the matter is hypnosis is a natural state. Everybody is in hypnosis a couple of times every single day.Like for example, when you're driving in your car and you're just going along the road and your [00:17:00] turn was over there, but you were focused on the road. That's a state of environmental hypnosis. It just means that you're focusing here and you are the things around you are starting to, you know, melt into the background.It's a natural process. It's a relaxing process. Someone in herm hypnosis is never out of control. They're never made to do anything that they don't wanna do or say. Anything you don't want, they won't say. And you know, it's been around for over 5,000 years and they have been com per, I don't wanna say perfecting it, but they continued to improve it and found more and more effective ways to use it.And the scientific ev evidence behind it is compelling at this point. And so there are hundreds of different ways that people can use hypnosis. It is something that it's a behavioral modification process, and, and everyone is hypnotizable. Now. Some people will feel, you know, everybody [00:18:00]experiences hypnosis differently.Some people have a light and tingling sensation. Some people feel relaxed and calm. Some people feel like they've gotten eight hours sleep in 15 minutes, but some people don't feel any differently at all. It's all good. Everybody experiences it differently. Now. A lot of people, they don't even realize that they're hypnotized, but the hypnotherapist, a qualified hypnotherapist, can tell that you're hypnotized.They'll let you know along the way what's going on, what to expect, what not to expect, and you know you are right with them. You could get up at any time, but most people don't want to because it's a very, very comfortable feeling and it is a participatory process. And what that means is the hiphop therapist.Our job is to help the client to come up with different strategies, different ways of doing things, new habits, new behaviors, different ways of thinking about it, seeing it. And different models, if you will, [00:19:00] for conducting their lives. And then the hypnotherapist will help to jumpstart that process by helping them to achieve the state of hypnosis.And then once they do, then the hypnotherapist will give the client their positive suggestions. And so like when I'm doing a hypnotherapy session, I'll keep notes of what the client says because I know what the client is the most open to the words. So I will be giving them their words. And then the client does their part by, in between sessions, they practice those changes.And the more they practice those changes, the more quickly change happens. And as I mentioned before, it's, it's so effective. There's hundreds of different ways that it can be used more and more each day from things like pain management. A lot of people use this for comfort, and in fact, those were a lot of the earlier applications.My areas of specialty are more on the levels of the emotional areas. For [00:20:00] example, anxieties, fears, worry, guilt, maybe a fear of success. A fear of failure is very, very common. Having to deal with the unknown, the uncertainties. But then there's also the things that most people have heard of, like breaking bad habits like smoking or body your nails or things like that.But while you're breaking those bad habits, you're shifting them to ones that you would prefer to have. And so instead of saying, not biting my nails, my nails are beautiful. My nails are growing, or instead of saying, I'm not successful in my job, I'm flourishing. I'm creating all the goals, I'm manifesting all the goals that I want.And so it's the, It's moving to a can do attitude as opposed to, I can't. And so and also, you know, you mentioned this earlier, trauma, ptsd, the things that happened in our past, you know, [00:21:00]dysfunctional childhoods, family systems, some of the beliefs that we had, sometimes our history, maybe we were raised in a, in an environment, sometimes culturally, sometimes religiously, sometimes in, you know, difficult situations where there were a lot of things that were present then that are not present now.And so it's a matter of replacing those old strategies for survival with ones that work today. And also, and this is the part that I like the best, because people have a tendency to, with hypnosis, they build their happiness, their self-esteem, their self-confidence their inner balance, their wellbeing.Kind of a state of zen. It's just a really wonderful state of balance and comfort in your life, and that's one of the reasons why those are some of the reasons why I love it so much. Hell De'Vannon: yeah. I'll take all that [00:22:00] shit. Okay. I'll give video1877255118: it Elaine: all to you. I'm happy to share that with you De'Vannon: and look the world, y'all can have it too.So I wanna talk about, go back to that word you mentioned overload, because then I want you to explain like the the snap that you use often in hypnosis. And my favorite takeaway, what I learned from when I was in school, the way they explained it to me and the reason why, like, like you say, everybody is hypnotizable.They were explaining like, so when we go to the. You know, like if I turn this television on behind me and I, it's Halloween almost, and I put on a horror movie and the big titty girl's about to run, she's running through the woods. And of course I know she's gonna fall and she's gonna get slaughtered by the buggy Man.Happens every time, every Halloween. But my post is that's not gonna, that's because I know that, Cause I know it's fake. It's not gonna stop my pulse from racing. My heart is gonna accelerate. I'm gonna feel fear for this dumb ass bitch because, and I know she's gonna die every Halloween, but I'm still gonna like feel that way [00:23:00] anyway because my mind is in a state of overload and my consciousness cannot discern, you know, reality from fakeness.And that's kind of. You know how, what's going on here? So explain to us how overload is and what that has to do with how you gain access to the subconscious. I Elaine: love that. That was a great explanation cuz you were talking about all of the elements all rolled into one. I had this overload, I had this expectation, I had this anxiety, I had this heightened awareness.I'm hyper suggestible. That's what we call it in hypnosis. And what happens is we get all these messages, all these messages, all these messages, and it's like, it's like Chinese water torture or something like that. It just goes over and over. And then eventually what happens is we get this overload of message units and we're filled up to the top.And eventually what we do is we escape into hypnosis. In other words, We need to get out of that [00:24:00] overload place. And so what we do is we call it escaping into the state of hypnosis. And then when someone, it's called the peak of your suggestibility. So you're going up, up, up, you're getting more and more and more overloaded and more message units, more information, more whatever's coming.And then when I smack my fingers and say deep sleep, I'll say deep. And then all of a sudden that's if you weren't over the edge yet, you're over it now. And then once you go over that and you escape into this bliss, you know, it's like you're going into this amazing warm pool or this, you know, wonderful blanket or whatever it is.You just go into this amazing state of relaxation. And at that point, the hypnotherapist is, you are open to the suggestions that has opened you to opened your subconscious to receive the suggestions, the barriers that we're trying to keep you from going into that state of hypnosis. [00:25:00] Those barriers have come aside, they've been pulled aside, and your subconscious is open.It's not unlike, and it's really kind of an interesting parallel now in this state of sleep when you're actually physically asleep at. The same process is happening, but you are in an unconscious state. Your subconscious is open. All the information that came in during the day that you've been keeping on hold in a holding pattern.It's all getting mixed together with what you know, and in the natural process, your subconscious is pulling it together and mixing it all together and creating new behaviors and new habits. So the process of hypnosis, and we call it hypnosis, which means sleep. You're not really asleep, as I mentioned.You're more aware it's in a state of subconscious. So it's between the conscious state and the unconscious state is this place called subconscious, [00:26:00] and that's where your subconscious is open to these suggestions. Just like when you are in a sleep state, only you hear everything that's said and your subconscious is actually mixing all the new information that comes in and mixing it together with what you already.And in the state of hypnosis, we give your subconscious permission to let go of those old behaviors and habits while we give you the new suggestions and the new ideas, the ones that have been stuck up here in the holding pattern where the conscious mind is. And that's how we create that synchronicity.De'Vannon: Does that help? That's, that's one of my, Yes, it did. Thank you so much for, for offering that synchronicity, ity, all of those sort of words, all this love event. They're so intense and so beautiful. Just beautiful in the most intense way. So, so yes, I've been, you know you know, seeing you for, I don't even know how long cause time goes by so fast, but [00:27:00] my, my favorite, you know, and I, and I came to you.You know, because I, during the course of my training for hypnotherapy, I realized that the voices in my head that had been guiding my life really were not my own. I still had the voice as a church in my head. I had the voice of the military in my head, the critical voice for my, my, my abusive of dad, you know, in my head and everything like that.And then, and like in my relationship with my boyfriend, I'm hearing myself speak the same, the same critical negativity that, that those three entities spoke to me. And I'm going, Wait a minute. I know better than to say that and to do that. Why am I acting this way? And why do I feel these insecure feelings and things like that?And so I realized that I was, even though I'm almost 40 years old, I was still under the influence of things from when I was younger. And so now people will always hear, hear me say, It's important for you to know why you think what you think is important for you to know why you feel, what you feel, [00:28:00] why you believe what you believe, and not to accept every thought and emotion that comes to you, no matter how intensely it presents itself without registering that it's actually authentically yours.Mm-hmm. . And and there are people who I pose a question to. They have a very strong belief on something. I'll go, Well, why do you believe that? Or why do you think that? And they can't render a reason, you know, And I, and I don't wanna let myself be that way. The most beautiful experience that I've had since, you know, starting hypno, the hypnotherapy with you, is I had a dream.And in this, in this, in this field of healing, the early morning dreams are a very important way that the subconscious will vent messages and healing and things like that. Those early morning dreams is something you'll hear every qualified hyp in the therapist talk about. And so I had a dream of myself as like, it was like my adult self and I went into like this burning house , like this burning house that was like on fire [00:29:00] and I found like my five to seven year old self in there.And it's like I was trying to get him. To get out of this house. And I couldn't, I couldn't get him out of the house, but I, but I kept trying to reassure him and I kept telling him, You know, it's not your fault. You know, it's not your fault. You know, it's not your fault. I kept telling him, You know, it's not your fault to try to get him out of this goddamn house.And I couldn't get him out of the house in that dream. But just the fact that I went on this search to find myself and to give myself reassuring words, you know, is a good indication that I'm headed in the right direction. And so for me, that was the most, the most beautiful manifestation of the benefits of hypnotherapy so far.Elaine: Oh my gosh, I remember that. You know, it's interesting when you were talking about that you discovered that you had new tools that, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna you a little feedback on that. You discovered that that little boy, that was you, the five to seven year old, [00:30:00] that was when a lot of the trauma was going on in your past.You know, it just happened to be a pivotal time when you probably felt the most helpless. And so what it was was the adult, you going back and trying to rescue that child and get him out of that, now that you couldn't bring him out to me, was you were letting go up The notion that he was trapped because it was a venting dream and a venting dream means that you're letting go of old behaviors and habits.I'm not, he's not trapped anymore. I've got him, I've got this. Does that, does that make sense? De'Vannon: It does. I did feel a strong sense of like, I may have cried in this dream or something like that, but it did feel very, it did feel very cathartic. You know, when I woke up, you know, it stuck with me for, you know, for quite a while and I did feel a strong sense of release.Elaine: Yes. Yes. It makes sense. I know that that [00:31:00] was when we were turning some corners. You know, it's so interesting because the subconscious in speaking of that, the subconscious communicates in symbols and images and contrary to popular belief, cuz you were talking about that critical voice that we think comes out of the subconscious, the subconscious number one goal is to keep us alive and well on the planet.Every single thing that it learns and does is with whenever it learned it, it knew that it was good for you, you or anybody else. And so it will always bring up stuff. That you might have a learning or an insight or in its, you know, five year old mind thinks it's good for you. Like, for example, you grew up in a critical household, and so drinking the Kool-Aid for, you know, for lack of better word, but buying the symptoms of what was going on actually did help you [00:32:00] just survive.You know, whether it was the church, whether it was the military, whether it was your parents, whether it was any number of situations and scenarios, you actually survived your childhood because you developed those coping mechanisms. But then you said, Why am I still doing this? Why am I still with the critical voices?Well, what ends up happening is that those critical voices, by the way, this is a fun fact. Any of that negative self-talk, absolutely zero. That none of it, not one word originated from you. None of it. And that's an astounding fact because what happens is we're born thinking we're all that, we're like the king of the hill.We are like the, all of that. And that's part of our survival mechanism. We only learn those negative words because someone has given them to us and we, and we buy that because we believe at three [00:33:00] years old, four years old, five years old, that that's what's going to help us survive. And so, you know, I fondly call it self flogging.So I beat myself up and as an adult, because I remember that when I would be beaten up negatively, you know, with negative words as a child, it was the motivator, it was the stick that got me going. But what ends up happening is it becomes counterproductive. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? De'Vannon: Yeah.Ain't ain't no good shit gonna come outta negative self talk, but you know. But it takes us so long to realize that it, that it's not us, you know? And we hold on to the negative sometimes more than we do the positive. You know, we repeat the insults rather than the confidence and stuff like that. But because it was that way doesn't mean it has to always be that way.Exactly. Elaine: Well, the thing is, is, and you know a lot of people, why am I still doing this? And I beat myself because I'm beating [00:34:00] myself up. But if we remember that that was something that we learned to help us, then we can practice some acceptance. The word that you were looking at, the one that you were talking about, acceptance of my thoughts and my emotions, because it's trying to help.So if your, if you know, if your clients, and I know that you also practice immunotherapy, your clients, if they are understanding that, that scary thought or whatever, if they realize that it's something to help them and they accept it, that it is there to help them, All of a sudden you're looking at it instead of as a bad child, a scared child, you know, for example, If that makes sense.And so when we start looking at it differently, we start having compassion for ourselves. It's one of the most amazing shifts. And I know that you have had this shift, and that is instead of motivating [00:35:00] myself with the stick, I'm using compassion, I'm using acceptance, I'm using kindness, I'm using love, reinforcement support.All of the words that you have, you have evolved and developed to say, you know what, you, you got this. And what different motivation. Right? So, awesome. So I need to say congratulations to you. You've done some major work. Well, De'Vannon: thank you. And you know, we got plenty more to do and so you know, so let's, so let's, so let's talk about what we're gonna work on today.So yes, y'all, you're gonna get to see Elaine do a little pre-talk, and we're gonna do like kinda like a progressive relaxation, sort of hy the therapy session so you can get like a taste of what it's like. This isn't gonna be anything too extreme, you know, in a, in a, in a, in a larger environment, you know, we would talk, I would go lay in this super comfortable chair.There could be use of different sound devices, be it the [00:36:00] beautiful wind chimes behind her pendulums, you know, you know, and all kinds of things to help to, you know, get the mind into hypnosis. There's all kinds of tricks the hypnotherapist has in their bag and they are quite colorful, but they're all to help you.And so today I would just like to keep working on, you know, the, you know, this child and everything, you know, just speaking against those, those negative voices. You know, fear, you know, trepidation. You know, feeling overwhelmed, you know, in my businesses, you know, and things like that. Lately I've been feeling like I don't, you know, I'm not qualified to do all the things that I'm doing, and then I don't have enough.Knowledge or wisdom or know how to take, you know, the, this podcast to the next level or to really market my book, you know, or to do those things. Because as I'm trying to go forward in these industries, I'm trying to open doors and industries I've never been in before, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm starting to get the you know, [00:37:00] you know, you know, it, the, these industries seem to help those who are already there more so than those who are trying to get into them.So Elaine: I know it's the catch 22. You gotta have to get it, You gotta get it to have it. De'Vannon: Yeah. Right? And, and so, so, so lately I feel like I'm just knocking against like, you know, a new ceiling that I've never tried to knock against before. I'm trying to push this thing open and it's just not happening. And I'm trying to remind myself, you know, You know, I'm not really in control of the timing.It's gonna happen when God wants it to happen. And I have, I've done quite a lot. I don't think I'm really given myself enough credit for the amount of work it took to get this podcast where it is, this book, find me on this shelf. And sometimes I can fall into this trap of focusing on what isn't versus rejoicing over everything that has happened that led up to this point.And I've been like that a lot and it's been very discouraging, you know, And I've been wondering how I'm gonna move forward so I could do [00:38:00] a little encouragement on today. Elaine: Okay. That's wow. Okay. Now some of this is probably gonna be a little bit of a repeat because I know that we've done some work together and I'm so glad that, see you noticed I'm focusing on what isn't instead of what is.But it flies in the face of my early childhood training that I have to focus on what isn't, because I have to figure out how to make it right, whatever it is. And it's usually pretty vague what I have to do. And oh, by the way, if you don't, you know, if you're not doing it right, you're gonna get a whooping or you know, you're gonna get a whatever it is.And so it's easy to go back to that old thought that if I focus on what it isn't, it will somehow or another propel me to make it is. Right. And you've obviously done so much work on this, [00:39:00]you know, that to focus on the, you know, I always call it as the glass half empty or half full. You know, it's either one or both, Right.If it's half empty, that means you're focusing on the part that isn't. If it's half full, you're focusing on the part that is. You know, you've heard the con the comment, you're a hundred percent successful in what you focus on. I mean, that's the little engine that could, It's the good Wolff and the bad wolf.It's all those different stories. And so what we do is we start shifting our consciousness toward what we want. And so I heard some words, and I'm gonna repeat them back to you. Okay. So I wanna, I want to talk to that child and speak to the part, and you said a guess, but we'll talk to the part that's still afraid and that's part of that, you know, we call it the inner child.But there was, that's that part I'm afraid, that [00:40:00] trepidation, you know, I'm, I'm afraid, do I have a parachute? You know, am I gonna jump off this clip? And am I gonna, you know, crash on the rocks? Or am I gonna soar the overwhelmingness because there's a lot of unknowns? Am I qualified? This is all new to me.How in the world do I know I'm qualified? You know, So I'm looking at what I'm not well, but I'm opening doors. But then I know this is, sometimes I call 'em the yts. I'm opening these doors. Yeah. Butand we do that. We all do that. I call 'em little rabbits. They're yts. They run around . So what happens is we're focusing on, we say Yeah. Logically in my mind, I know I'm opening new doors. Yeah. But it's new. Yeah. But I don't know which way to go. Yeah. But I have a ceiling. Yeah, but there's a brick wall, right?Mm-hmm. . So let me shift that a little bit. Yes. I see the [00:41:00] ceiling. I see it. I now recognize that that ceiling, in fact, you can see the water marks on the wall where the ceiling used to be a lot lower. Right. But I see the ceiling, it's gotten higher. It's gotten higher and it's gotten higher, but there's still a ceiling there.And I recognize it and that's okay because I, That is a metaphor for, there's still stuff that's unknown. What's on the other side of the ceiling, What's on the other side of the door? I don't know. So, and I'm not in control of the timing. I wanna be control of the timing. I want it to happen when I want to happen, so I don't have to worry about it.Yeah. , right? Yeah, exactly. And if you find that I want that magic pill, please, . But I'm here to tell you that hypnosis hypnotherapy helps us to shift our thoughts [00:42:00] away from those old thoughts. That happen. Auto, they happen automatically. Remember we were talking about the subconscious? That's where our habits are and our behaviors are.Well, that part is the vast majority of our conscious thinking. And so what we need to do is we need to get those conscious thoughts. Like for example, you know that thinking positively, you know that succeeding is good for your survival, right? But yet you've got those yts underneath. So now what we wanna do is we wanna identify for a moment what is, is I do want.Okay. Not what I already see. I see the fear, the trepidation. You overwhelmed. What is it that I do want? We wanna identify what that is. What does that look like? De'Vannon: I want to be accepted in these new arenas I'm trying to get into. So I wanna be, [00:43:00] you know, I want greater acceptance in the author. World, you know, as I, you know, try to deal with different marketing companies or different publishing houses, or different review agencies or, you know, different things like that, you know, you know, I wanna find that tribe where alternative podcasts, like mines that are, they're explicit, you know, and things like that are accepted because a lot of popular, you know, podcasts and a lot of popular podcast circles are very conservative or business oriented, but this is very, you know, culture, very edgy, very, you know, very fucking real.Mm-hmm. , you know, but very fucking real isn't always accepted in a lot of popular places. And so, so I want, so I wanna find a place that Elaine: work, Excuse me, time out. Yeah. Okay. Because we, we, we started to go back into the negative, and I'm saying that just because it's our natural process. Okay. It isn't accepted in [00:44:00]a lot of places.Right. Right. Pretty much a, that's like a no brainer. Would you wanna be in those places? De'Vannon: No, I don't. I didn't think so. Elaine: those places are not you, , that's like going, you know, like if you wear really expensive clothes and you go to a sl, you don't fit, Right? I mean, or, or vice versa. So I want my, and, and this is something that's really important for everybody.I want my pack, I want my community, I want my comrades, I want my tribe. I want to attract and be attracted to those people with whom I have a common interest. I know that De'Vannon: I took a word. That's what I meant to say. That's exactly what I meant to say. . I had a feeling, Elaine: so, And, and I, Okay. Just kind of a little bit of a sidebar.I knew that that's where you had, because we've had a lot of history together, [00:45:00] so I, I, you know, I took a little shortcut there, but Yes, that's exactly right. And so that's a really good thing. And we also used it as an example. So I'm her, I'm hearing that you want acceptance in new arenas, for example, as an author, as a marketing person in the publishing companies.In the agencies, these are new places that you are breaking into. Yes. Yes. Okay. But in addition to that, I want my tribe, I want to feel that I'm part of a community that is there to help. I mean, there to, you know, you guys have common interests. It's a new culture that you wanna be in. Right. Right. Okay. All right.So is there anything else that is part of your, what your inner child needs to hear?De'Vannon: No. [00:46:00] He just, Okay. He, he's good. He's just, he just needs to know he's, he's good enough and to be patient, he needs to understand that patience is a good thing. . So, No, Elaine: that's good. Okay. You know, if we have this presupposition that our subconscious is constantly working for our benefit. Yes. Now here's the cool part about it.My conscious mind can go do the research and they can do all of the different things and it can knock on doors and it can do all of that stuff, but it's only about 10 to 12%. Right. So what would happen if we got our subconscious on board to help? Would that be a good thing? Yes, it would. Yeah. Cause it basically what you're doing is you're super charging it.Now, if we know, and it's, it's an absolute non-negotiable fact that our subconscious 100% of the time is here trying to protect us and keep us [00:47:00] alive and well and working toward our goals. There is absolutely no other option. All right. It just is because otherwise we would not exist as a species. I mean, literally it comes right down to that.Okay. All right. So I know that I learned some things that were other people's beliefs. I learned that those things were good for me when I was five to seven years old, and they were great for that. But now I'm trying to unlearn those and I'm knowing that I. I have really reached a lot of goals. I have really accomplished a lot of goals and, you know, we could go on for days with that because, you know, I know that you know a lot of the goals that you've reached, and so now I'm seeing the next steps is moving toward acceptance in the new areas that I'm researching [00:48:00] and attracting a greater, a greater community of like-minded people.Is that fair? Okay. Mm-hmm. . Now, how do you know that you're good enough? What lets you know that you're good enough?De'Vannon: I, I would say a feeling. My first thought was once the objective has been accomplished, but I feel like that that's probably, I don't know if that's like the strongest thing. Elaine: Well, that's the art before the horse , right? When you're facing the unknown, fear is an absolutely natural consequence of facing the unknown because it is the unknown and your fear is trying to protect you.So, in your life, can you think of a time that you faced something that was new that you didn't know [00:49:00] and you did it?De'Vannon: I mean, yeah, probably. But you know, thinking back on it now, sometimes it's in a, in that moment, I just feel like I can Okay. Or maybe whatever it is that was presented to me, I, I, I rationalized. Okay, I can probably do this. Okay. Now why? I don't know, you know? Elaine: Okay. Okay. When you were going after that, whatever it was, why, what were you thinking?You knew it was new. Why'd you decide to do it? Whatever it was. De'Vannon: It just felt right. It felt good. Maybe I felt calm, I felt capable, you know, inexplicably, I don't know why, you Elaine: know? Okay. [00:50:00] Is it possible that you were focusing on the goal, you were focusing on the reason why you wanted this goal, whatever it was?De'Vannon: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Elaine: So if I'm a hundred percent successful at what I focus on, if my goal is to have acceptance, I'm going to manifest, accept. By being acceptance. Does that make sense? And what is it like when I'm accepted? Oh, by the way, I've had a lot of new, this is you, I've had a lot of new situations where I came in and I wasn't accepted that that moment because they didn't know me.But once they got to know me, once I was able to share my enthusiasm about a ton of it, my energy, my [00:51:00] insight, my knowledge, my motivation, my inspiration, then all of a sudden I found commonalities. Right? But I came in to it. I mean, there's a hundred different examples that I can think of just in my knowing of your history that you have faced.I mean, we could go all the way back to learning to walk. I mean, that's, I wanna go as fast as my mom. I wanna catch up to my dad, you know? That's, I'm thinking about walking. I'm not worried about falling on my diaper . I wanna walk, I wanna get there. Okay. So I know that I can become accepted in areas. I was accepted in so many different areas, but now I'm focused on, yes, I know that there's fear, but I recognize that that's because I'm going, I'm pushing that ceiling, [00:52:00] okay?And that's okay. But what I do have is I have courage, I have tenacity, I have a history of learns and learned behaviors, and I have a history of creating success. And so if I can focus on the little engine, I can, I think I can. And all of a sudden my subconscious jumps on board and instead of 10 or 12% of me working toward my goal, all the stuff below the surface is working toward my goal.And I might even be surprised how quickly change happens, because now, like if I have a, if I have 10 people rowing the boat, instead of only one or two going in the direction I want, I've got all 10 of them. Mm-hmm. , imagine how fast you're gonna get there. Right? Okay. So that's what it's all about. So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna help you to achieve the state of hypnosis, and I'm gonna be giving [00:53:00] your subconscious your positive suggestions.And like I said, there's a, everybody's hypnotizable, you might feel relaxed and calm. You might feel like you've got an eight hours of sleep in 15 minutes. You might just be relaxing with your eyes closed. You may even find that your mind is drifting to other areas. But that's okay because that's your subconscious organizing with symbols and images and saying, Oh, that's like, this let's me, let me add that to the pile.Oh, that's like that. Let me add that to the equation because now what's happened is all these things are moving toward your goal. Are you ready? Mm-hmm. , are you ready to have all 10 ORs in the water going toward your goal? I'm just wondering. De'Vannon: Oh, let it be. I wonder that be Elaine: let it be. I'm wondering if that may already be happening, because I know you have the desire and I know you have the willingness, and I know you have the tools that it takes.I know you're good enough, [00:54:00] and I know you have it. So I'm wondering, as you allow yourself to take a slow, deep breath insoothing, relaxing, releasing, letting go, letting go with each and every deep breath, the body becoming more relaxed and more calm. With each and every exhale, releasing and letting go. Tensions, stressors, anxieties, worries. Melting away the body, becoming more relaxed and more calm, more peaceful, more serene.Soothing, relaxing, releasing, letting go. Letting go. I'm gonna begin counting from backwards from five to zero. And as you [00:55:00] as I do, you may begin to notice the body becoming even more comfortable, even more calm, even more peaceful, even more serene. And we begin at five, taking that next slow, deep breath in, and allow your energy to focus on the area between the feet and the knees.And as you become aware of the area between the feet and the knees, the muscles becoming so relaxed and so calm, so peaceful, so serene, soothing, relaxing, releasing, letting go, letting go. With fours, the body continues going deeper, still a sense of inner peace and calm, and a sense of comfort, and well, As your attention drifts to the area between the knees and the hips, and the area between the knees and the hips [00:56:00] becoming loose and limber, comfortable and calm, a feeling of inner peace and wellbeing.At three, the number of deep contentment, the attention drifting to the area, into the midsection and the vital organs, the heart, the lungs, the kidneys, the liver, even the spine. Relaxing and releasing the tensions and stressors in the vertebrae, one by one by one, and the relaxation. Continuing across the shoulders, down the arms, into the elbows, the forearms, the wrist to hands, negative energy, tensions and stressors, anxieties, worries, melting away, the body becoming more relaxed and more.More peaceful, more serene, and still. And still. The body goes deeper and deeper at to the [00:57:00]relaxation continuing of the back of the neck, the base of the skulls of floating drifting sensation as the mind relaxes and the eye muscles, jaw, muscles, releasing, letting it go, letting it go so that it won the body envelope in a wonderful state of deep relaxation and deep comfort, a deep and peaceful sense of calm, tranquility, inner peace, and zero deep asleep each time.Deep sleep is suggested to you for the purpose of hypnosis. With your permission and only your permission sleeping calmly quickly to this depth or even deeper, the physical body relaxing and the mind. To the positive suggestions, the positive outcomes that are yours. And you know, in your subconscious knows that the time is right and you are aware that as a little boy [00:58:00] there were many messages that you received.Some were positive, some were negative, some were downright mean and cruel. Some motivated you to be led by fear. They doubted your confidence and they created this place of uncertainty. And as weird as it was and an uncomfortable as it was, it in fact helped you to survive the onslaught of that energy that those around you held.But that doesn't mean that the true, authentic, you disappeared far from it. You all the while have kept and held onto that amazing, amazing. As evidence in that dream that you talked about before you're coming back to rescue, that little boy, that little boy that was helpless and was out of control and you were coming back with a lifetime of learnings, and while you woke up not [00:59:00] having released and to rescued him, what that dream represented was that you know that you have what you need.You came back and you were letting go of the fear that you didn't have it. You were letting go of that old belief that you weren't good enough. You were letting that go. And ever since then, it's been a revelation. And the revelation is, I am good enough. I know I have what it takes. I have a long list of successes, a long list of areas where I went into a new situation.We all faced them every day. That you have hundreds, maybe thousands of situations in the past several years where you went into a situation where you analyzed it and you looked at it and you studied it and you prepared, and you recognized and [01:00:00] realized that it was something you wanted. It was something new.You was something that was achievable, and it was something in alignment with who you are, where you're going and on your journey. And you realized that as you were focused on that prize, that carrot, that amazing, amazing accomplishment that you were doing in the back of your mind, even though you didn't know the way, even though you didn't know how, even though you didn't know how long it was gonna take inside, you said, This is important to me.I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. I am trusting that my conscious desire is in alignment with my subconscious motivation. That part that wants me to succeed, that part that wants me to survive, that part that wants me to thrive. And I am fully on board and I don't know what the outcome's gonna look like, but I do know it's going to be something that I want.And so now [01:01:00] as you are at the beginning of this wonderful new door that you're opening, you notice that the ceiling is higher than it used to be, but you want it higher now. You want it higher still. And that's a positive thing. And it's very exciting to be sure. And so as you are looking at this opportunity, you've already opened doors and you know that as an author, as in the marketing companies, In the publishing companies.In the agencies, you've already broken ground. You already have blazed a trail, and you know that it's just a matter of time. And your mind and your body, and your heart and your soul, and your conscious, and your subconscious are all working together now because this is in fact, and I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.And along the way, the tribe, [01:02:00] the community, the commonalities, they're going to find you because they are looking for you to, in your early morning dreams, venting, releasing, letting go, all behaviors and habits from the past, letting them go easily and effortlessly because each day is a wonderful opportunity, an amazing experience, and an event, and an amazing door.That is opening. You don't know how, you don't know where. You just know that all of you is working together and nothing. And no one can stop you now. I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. Coming up to one beginning to become more alert and more aware. Bringing with you to two, a wonderful sense of wellbeing, inner peace and [01:03:00] calm as you come up to three, preparing to come back in the room, becoming aware of your surroundings.At four and finally to five. Eyes open, wide awake. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Eyes open, wide, wide awake. Beautiful. You got this?Yeah. De'Vannon: That was probably the most tinged and chilled I felt in a session before. There's a very warm spirit working between us tonight, and I really, really appreciate Elaine: that. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so grateful to be on your journey with you. I'm, it's just as much a gift for me, De'Vannon: so y'all, every time I come out of like hip noses, it's like a, like a, I almost feel like I'm a little bit still there.And I think it is known [01:04:00] that, you know, I don't, I can't remember how it's said right now, but when you, when you're counted up out of hypnosis, sometimes you might still be suggestible to an extent, and so, . I definitely feel like I'm gonna be pretty suggestible for the rest of the day. So Elaine: and, and one of the things to reinforce that is when you have a moment, hopefully sooner than later, you're able to write down your thoughts and get into that journal.Because when you write things down, what happens is you are reinforcing it in your subconscious. It's sort of like when you write things down, it's like a highway to your subconscious. And so give yourself the gift of taking some time to just journal your thoughts and your learnings. And then of course, every night before you go to sleep, tell your subconscious you're continuing this work and your subconscious is all over it.Okay. All De'Vannon: right. I will do that right now. Thank you [01:05:00] so much for coming on this show. Today. Thank you again. Her web, Yeah. Again, her website is elaine peril.com. I wanna put that in the show notes so y'all can reach out directly to her for all of your questions about hypnotherapy that you, that you know, you've always wanted to ask.Well, now you have direct access to somebody who's been doing this for longer than many of you have been alive. And, and I mean that in the best way. So, you know, cause very, very young people been, It's so good. you know, ask her, not me, cuz she knows she, she taught me. So that's a, you can go direct to the source.You can cut out the middle man , Elaine: you're so sweet. Thank you so much. De'Vannon: Any, any final closing words to the world? Pardon any, I always let my guests have a last word. Any words of wisdom or insight to the world that you would like to say?Elaine: The answers that you want are already inside of you. [01:06:00] Sometimes they seem to be hidden away, but together we'll find them as you find your De'Vannon: way,and that's the way we're closing it. Thanks everyone for watching.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

The In Session Podcast
119: Sex, Drugs & Dopamine with Dave MacDonald & Jonathan Esslinger

The In Session Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 15, 2022 63:40


Today's incredible guests are bringing us so much wisdom around the subjects of sex, addiction, relationship & habits with one throughline; dopamine. Dopamine drives what we chase, what brings us joy and it shapes our experiences. Understanding how it works and how to direct your dopamine toward healthy, life giving choices is the key. Join us as we explore the impact of our behaviors and how we train our bodies and minds to want certain things or behaviors because of dopamine. About today's guests. Dave MacDonald: American actor, Dave MacDonald started his career as a military broadcast journalist for the US Army. He hosted a radio and talk show in Berlin, Germany on the American Forces Network for three years. After leaving the service he headed for Los Angeles, California and graduated from the theater department at Loyola Marymount University. Dave toured nationally with the Chicago based Griffen Theatre  production, Letters Home and started his tv career in the Windy City. After moving to Asheville, North Carolina, he started working in film and tv projects based in the Southeast. Some of his notable credits are Ozark, Stranger Things, The Resident, Mr. Mercedes. Jonathan Esslinger: Jonathan is Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor, Licensed Clinical Addictions Specialist. His clinical experience began at the Emory University Hospital's Wesley Wood's day treatment program for geriatric patients, and then progressed through to the other end of the spectrum as a child specialist conducting trainings thru the North Carolina Division of Child Development and Early Education. After moving to North Carolina, Jonathan served as the program director at Meridian Behavioral Health Service's Recovery Education Center from 2006-2012. During that time, he was immersed in the Recovery Model which strongly influenced his counseling techniques giving him a wide range of expertise to help his patients.

The Rage and Pillage Podcast
#1080: Sex, Drugs, & Rock'n'Roll (feat. Ralph Sutton)

The Rage and Pillage Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 15, 2022 83:53


Josh and Burley are proud to be joined by the Podcast Guru himself Ralph Sutton. He talks about transitioning from radio to being the owner of one of the top podcast networks on the planet (GaS Digital), run ins with the law, and testing drugs. Its a blast!   Air Date: 11/10/22 Rage and Pillage Hotline: (872)228-RAP3 Call and leave a message (or jerk off) Rage and Pillage merchandise is available! Rate and Review on Apple Podcasts and Rate on Spotify! FOLLOW THE WHOLE SHOW ON SOCIAL MEDIA! Rage and Pillage Instagram Josh Instagram Burley Instagram

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #77: The LOBO (Light Out Barks Out) Initiative/Kink Community, Living With Mitochondrial Disease, Chosen Family & Kick Ass Grandmas, With Jake Didinsky, Host Of The LOBO Podcast, Music Producer & Touring DJ

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2022 70:34


INTRODUCTION: Let's start withthe basics I am 29 and identify as non-binary, pansexual and demisexual. I amon the spectrum and neurodivergent. I also have mitochondrial disease, ADHD,associated mood disorder, anxiety, depression and more. I am however an openbook on everything.  I am deeply engrained in the kink community and alsothe furry community. So I was born and diagnosed with mitochondrialdisease when I was young. Over the course of my life my single mother did herbest but like most parents of those with chronic illnesses she protected me wayto much. When my brothers were born they also were diagnosed with mitochondrialdisease I often joke that my mother hit the lottery 3 boys with mito with notrace of it anywhere else in our family.Having mitochondrial disease has posed manychallenges in my life from school where I had an IEP all the way intoadulthood. I have always known I was different from everyone else and growingup with that knowledge has made life hard for sure. I also decided however whenI was 24 that I was going to stop feeling sorry for myself and not let mycondition define me. It was at this point that I launched Lights Out, BarksOut! Or LOBO! for short. LOBO is a night club event that focuses on beingsex positive, kink positive, body positive, gender inclusive, and creating asafe space for all. When we started we were mostly a party in dc for pups andfurries but we have grown now to be in 8 cities and to include a wide anddiverse group of patrons. LOBO has changed my life and the lives of many otherswho have found their community and safe space through us. We actually as of afew days ago launched our non-profit wing called the LOBO Initiative whichfocuses on LGBTQ+ youth and adults and those with disabilities who need ahelping hand to achieve their dreams. In addition to LOBO I am a full time professionalDJ and producer and I get the opportunity to play all over the world at circuitparties. This however is at great expense to my overall health.  Havingthe Mito and being on the road 24/7 working late hours into the 3-5 am timeslot isn't good for someone with a mitochondrial cell deficiency. As I saidthough I made the decision that I wanted to live my life my way and if thatmeans taking a few years off so be it. IN SHORT:- Professional touring DJ and Music Producer aswell as event promoter (including events geared for kinksters, furries, andthose with sensory issues)  - Non-binary, Pansexual, Neruodivergant (High Functioning Autism), ADHD, Associated Mood Disorder, GAD-Reporter for Switch the Pitch Soccer Covering the USMNT-Founder and COO of The LOBO Initiative Non-ProfitINCLUDED IN THISEPISODE (But not limited to):·     An Explanation Of Mitochondrial Disease·      Jake'sTotally Kick Ass Grandma·      YAYCHOSEN FAMILY!!!·      Jake'sPath To Becoming A DJ·      ABreakdown Of LOBO (Lights Out Barks Out)·      HowJake Helps Other Rise In The Music Industry·      DifficultiesFor Creatives To Get Their Break·      NightClub Events For People With Sensory Concerns·      PupPlay & Furry Community ·      KetamineTestimonial  CONNECT WITH JAKE: Website: https://jakemaxwellproductions.comMixCloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/live/jakeMaxwell/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LightsOutBarksOutFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DjJakeMaxwellInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lightsoutbarksoutdc/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/djjakemaxwell/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LightsOutDCTwitter: https://twitter.com/DJJakeMaxwell   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'SRECOMMENDATIONS: ·      PrayAway Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·     OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·     Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·     Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork:https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'SSERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      DisabledAmerican Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      AmericanLegion: https://www.legion.org ·      What TheWorld Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED INPODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·     PodMatch is awesome! This applicationstreamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you findshows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that iswhere you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people sothat you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00] You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where wediscuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs andJesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My nameis De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world aswe dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive tohelp you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talkabout. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: JakeDidinsky is the host of the Lobo, which stands for Lights Out Barks Outpodcast. He runs Lobo nightclub events all across the country, and most of all,he lives his life out and proud. Y'all listen and learn about Jake'scontributions to the kink community, and Jake is particularly interested in PupPlay the Fur Community, which is super cute, super awesome.Learn about Jake's path to becoming a [00:01:00]dj. The ways Jake helps others rise in the music industry and Jake's tips forthose living with mitochondrial disease, which is something that Jake has livedwith all his life. That disease cannot be overstated as many people living withit are not expected to live very long. ,but Jake has defied the odds. He is still alive And he is sohere to help everyone in any way that he can. Please listen and fall in love.with Jake, just as I have. Hello, you beautiful souls out there and welcomeback to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I hope you all are doing fan fucking taskas myself and my guest Jake Denki are doing. Jake, how are Jake: you? I'm good.I am just happy to have another day on this earth and, you know living thedream one day at a time De'Vannon: hall.Love you Tabernacle and praise. And so y'all is he Lobo which [00:02:00] stands for Lights Out, Bark Out, I believeLights Out Barks Out, I believe is what that stands for. He runs the Lobopodcast and as well, he is a dj, an event promoter and a music producer, and sohe. Living a high energy life, . And today on this we're gonna be talking abouthis medical history.He has something that's called mitochondrial disease, which I'dnever heard from before. He's gonna be telling us about his low boatinitiative, what his nonprofit does, and what it can do for you. So let's startwith your own history. Like what is it you would like to tell us Jake: about yourself?Yeah. So the first thing people will notice about me, I'm surethey're in this podcast and just listen to me, is I'm severely adhd. So if Ijump around a lot, I apologize. In addition to that, I'm also on the spectrumvery proudly actually. So those are two of like my badges of honor, adhd, verymuch so neuro [00:03:00] divergent.As you mentioned, I have the MET Disease that was diagnosedwhen I was I think four. Both me and my two brothers have it with no othertrace of it. And my family, I like to often joke that my mom had three boys andhit the lottery. All three boys have a condition that it's only passed throughthe mother that she doesn't have.So go figure. You know, that's always often the joke. I am adj, I'm a producer. I run light top, barks out the event all over the country.In addition to our logo initiative, nonprofit as well as I am a soccerjournalist have previously worked in politics. I've kind of been all over theplace you know, run an e-sports team.I, if it exists, I will do it. My whole thing is that basicallyI don't know how much time I have on this earth because people of my conditionsdon't typically live to be my age. And so I'm trying to take full advantage ofit and live as much of a life to the fullest as I. I De'Vannon: admire youand encourage [00:04:00] your, your strengththat you have there, that you keep going.So, so you're saying people with your disease don't usuallylive to your age. How old are you as of today? Jake: I am 29. I willturn 30 in in April. April 16th. Yes. I can do this. April 16th, I will turn30. I will be officially gay dead as the kids say. But I am very excited to bein my thirties and looking forward to that chapter.You De'Vannon: should belooking forward to it. Thirties are wonderful. That's when we really solidifywho we are. So how long do people typically live with this disease if, if 29 isso far out? Jake: So it's one ofthose things where it's, it's really like with the mitochondria disease, it'skind of hard to, to put a number on it, right?Because the way I explain it is mitochondria cells are ineverything in the body, right? So when your mitochondria don't work, That meansnothing in your body works the way it's supposed to. And when you have adeficiency where certain things in your body might work and other things maynot, it's very hard to follow a [00:05:00] pathof how that condition may go.So there's really not one person who has my condition, it hasthe exact same symptoms as anybody else. I often compare it to, if you take abag of a million jelly bean and try to pick out the same one twice, the odds ofdoing that are slim to none. So on the one hand you have people like me who areless affected but could go immediately plummeting like I was in the hospitalthree weeks ago out of the blue.Or you have people on the other end who are very, very, veryseverely affected who don't make it to V3 or four. And there's a whole bunch ofsub conditions. And as we learn more and more about it with geneticconditioning and genetic testing, like we are able to start to pinpoint itmore. But essentially it's one of those things where, It's really kind of acrapshoot because you just don't know.You just, it, it's, I was hospitalized with a minor virus thatspread, that nearly took me out and that was terrifying. And it's somethingthat, you know, it's one of those [00:06:00]things where you just kind of, you never really know with my condition, andthat is something that weighs on you a lot as a.Hmm. De'Vannon: Okay. Sotell us like, you know, scientifically, you said that the, the mitochondriadon't work or there's not enough of 'em. Tell us exactly like your definitionof mitochondrial Jake: disease. Yeah,so with the mitochondrial disease, the scientific definition is essentially ifyou have a deficiency within your mitochondria cell, the mitochondria cellitself, then you have a mitochondrial disease.Within that, there is a much broader spectrum of which one youhave. It can go, It is a very wide ranging spectrum. I think there's like 67,68 different sub conditions of mitochondrial disease. With myself, essentiallythe, the most common thing that almost everyone of a MIT deficiency has is anenergy deficiency, right?So right out the gate mitochondria produced like 96, 90 7% ofthe body's. So if they're not working right, you're already starting off of alow energy. And having a [00:07:00] low energycan lead to other things like having a weak immune system. And then you getinto things, like I said, every single organ, every single part of your bodyhas mitochondrial cells in it.So if your cell mitochondrial cells aren't working the way theyshould be you're gonna have deficiencies in those org organs. So as an example,I had a feeding tube from the time I was like 13 to the time I was 22. I, whenI was 13, 14 years old, I was like 56 pounds and four feet tall. I wasdiagnosed failure to thrive.They had tried everything and I was eating like a machine, butI was metabolizing things so quickly that the food wouldn't like do anything.It would just go right through. Right? So I had a feeding tube, and because ofthat, that's a lot of where my ADHD and my autism comes from. The mitochondriaGIS use, gastritis, gastroparesis, kidney stones since I was 13.All, all this bumped up, all stems traditionally from themitochondria disease as a baseline. Well that's De'Vannon: like,that's like a lot. That's like fucking a lot. Like fuck. [00:08:00] I looked up real quick and I saw thatabout one in 5,000 people both in the United States and globally have thisdisease. Jake: Yeah. And a lotof times it goes undiagnosed because a lot of doctors don't know what it is.So like most doctors, when I say mitochondrial disease, thinkI'm talking about multiple sclerosis, which are two very, very, very, verydifferent conditions. I mean, they couldn't be further apart. One is very muchso brain related and one is very much so body oriented. You know also I'veheard people say, Oh my, that must be muscular dystrophy.That's another one. Closer. But not exactly the same. I havebeen guilty myself of walking into the ER and being like, Yeah, I just havemuscular dystrophy because if I say me disease, I've had doctors look at melike I'm making something up. That has happened to me in the ER multiple times.I went in to actually.But I was admitted to the hospital the first after I saw, thoughtI was just there to get opioids because I was making up something that he'dnever [00:09:00] heard of. And that was a wholewonderful experience where I was like, Dude, no, I'm here because I'm in painand don't wanna be on opioids. Please don't gimme opioids.This is a real thing. You should know this. You're a medicalprofessional. I'm like that. A son of a bitch, , right? Like there's nothingmore infuriating than walking in. Hospital and them being like, Yeah, we don'tthink this is a legitimate thing. This is like, we've never heard of it can, orlike, having you, I don't mind having you explain to a doctor my condition.I usually just walk in with a binder now that I just like handthem. I'm like, Here's everything you need to know about my condition from likemedical specialists in my, in my hoop, Specialize in medo. Just read this andcall them if you have any questions. Because at this point, like I'm so tiredof giving the spiel to these doctors that it's just, it's frustrating andoftentimes they just don't want to hear it.I had to tell the when they were giving me my scope in thehospital to check my stomach. I'm like, You gotta make sure you don't gimmelactic ringers. I will have a reaction. And the nurse looked at me like I hadthree heads because most [00:10:00] patientsdon't tell on theirs that they can't have lactic ringers or even know whatlactic ringers are.So the fact that that was mentioned is just kind of one of thethings that I've been doing for so long. It doesn't phase me anymore. Okay. De'Vannon: And then Iread where you have an had an IEP all the way through adulthood. Yes.Adulthood. And I'm assuming that stands for an individualized education Jake: plan. Yes.So one of the things that is actually very dear and important tomy heart is special education. I intend to run for school board at some pointin my life. I think that people with disabilities need more representation onschool boards from those who have gone through the special education program.I had an iep originally, they wanted to give me a 5 0 4 plan, Ibelieve which is the alternative. But my mother made sure was an IEP cuz shewas a lawyer and knew the system, which is unfortunately something that a lotof kids don't have access to. But that is part of the reason I wanna getinvolved.We'll come back around to that. But I was on an iep originallythey wanted to hold me back in third grade cuz I couldn't write [00:11:00] cursive and that was a whole thing. Theygave me a bunch of. They came back and they said we can't hold this kid back.He's reading at a college level. He's writing at a college level.We should actually skip him ahead of grade. And that was like acomplete whirlwind. So yeah, but the IEP was literally one of the things thathelped me get through school. I actually had to go to three to three differenthigh schools before they finally figured out a system that worked for me.When I was at my first high school, I was getting like D's andF's, but they couldn't figure out why, because I was getting perfect scores onthe state test in Virginia and I was getting like, perfect scores on all myexams. And the reason was I wasn't doing the homework cuz it bored me. Itwasn't challenging enough.And so I just was like, I'm not gonna do it. Like it doesn't, Idon't get anything from this. So I would just like do the exams and then notbother up the homework cuz I knew most of the material. Then they moved me to asecond school where I had a teacher tell me that I couldn't go on a field tripwith my journalism class because she didn't wanna be [00:12:00]responsible for a medical condition.Because she didn't think I could ride the metro for an hourwith kidney stones, which was a whole thing. And my mom said, Uhuh, we're notdoing this. Like we're gonna, we're gonna find a different place cuz this isnot like, acceptable. And then finally I arrived at Falls Church High School inVirginia which is where I ended up graduating from and will always have aspecial place in my heart, which is why I continue to go back there and visitand get back to the school.But there they kind of realized that they had to create almostthis alternative like, plan to help me, I guess, or I guess make it moreaccessible for me, right? Because what ended up happening was I was doing allthese classes and I was, I was getting, like I said, perfect scores and I waseventually they came up with the quantity or quality versus quantity.Which meant that if I could prove that I was getting thematerial, it wasn't how much work I was doing versus the qual, the quality ofthe work I was doing. So at one point [00:13:00]during my senior year, we ended up with the situation because I started inMaryland that I had to take world history. I, and in Virginia, that is afreshman class in Maryland, that is a senior class.I at that point did not want to spend an entire school yearsurrounded by freshmen. Not that I had any problem with it, it was just thatfor me, with being on the spectrum of a bunch of other issues, I was having areally hard time connecting with the freshmen, being older. And also I hadalways had a hard time kind of in school connecting with people my own age.I often spent most of my lunch periods hanging out with thestaff and teachers. So they allowed me to spend that period with my teacherfrom the previous year in us. And, you know, helping him with grading papersand teaching US history and whatever world history had a test, I would takethat test and I would pass it.And that was kind of how they allowed me to navigate my senioryear. Most schools wouldn't have been okay with that, but in this situation,they realized [00:14:00] that if they weregonna fail me because of this, it would've, it would've made no sense becauseat the end of the year, I got a perfect score on the state test, which issomething that should be eliminated altogether because state testing is a jokeand a massive fraud.And realistically, is it the way we should be measuringpeople's success? But that's a whole nother story. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Wow. Thankyou for going into such great detail with that. I appreciate it because thoseare the sort of the, that's the sort of information that helps people. So in myresearch of you, I, I came across where you felt like your mom protected youway too much because of this chronic illness.I got the sense that. Maybe other parents do the same sort ofmaybe like overprotection thing. So I wanna know like what advice you wouldgive both to young people who have this disease and also to the parents ofyoung people who have this Jake: disease. Yeah.So I think first and foremost I should acknowledge that [00:15:00] while my mom and I don't have the world's bestrelationship, I acknowledge that she did the best that she could, right?She had three boys, all of a chronic illness that she had noexperience with as a single mother. And I respect the hell out of the fact thatshe did the best that she could in the circumstances that she could. And welived a relatively comfortable life growing up. And I will always have thatrespect for her, right?That that's never gonna go anywhere regardless of how strainedour relationship is. That being said, I think that it's important not just forparents of people with mito, but for parents. I'll start their parents,especially of kids with chronic illnesses, to understand that. You know, at acertain point in time, you're not gonna be there for your child anymore, right?Like, at a certain point in time, your child's gonna have to goout into the world in theory and figure it out on their own. And if you protectthem to a point where they get there and they're so used to people doing thingsfor them that they don't know how to handle themselves, it can create massiveroadblocks and relearning experiences that [00:16:00]put them behind the eight fall.Like I had never borrowed taxes previously up until a coupleyears ago because I had always been claimed as a dependent, and then all of asudden I wasn't a dependent and I had no idea how to do it. And it was likeincredibly overwhelming and incredibly alarming for me. And that was somethingthat I legitimately had to teach myself because I just had never even occurredto me.I think that the, the instinct just for parents in general isto protect, right? Because this is, this is someone, this is your child, right?Like you want the best for them, and you're afraid sometimes to take your handsoff the wheel. . But I think that you have to trust and find the balance ofletting your kid going, go out and fail and learn from that experience.But also being there to pick them back up when they do. Becausewhat I'm not saying to do is just push 'em out the nest and say, Okay, figureit out. But I'm also not saying like, to protect them to a point where theyhave no idea and think the world is this perfectly welcoming place to peoplewith disabilities because the reality is the world is really hard for peoplewith [00:17:00] disabilities.It just is. It is not a nice world out there at times. Andthat's something that I think a lot of kids with chronic illnesses, when theybecome into adulthood, find out the hard way. As for children and those teens,especially young adults going through this trying to find their independenceand expressed that they can do things, You know, the way I finally got my momto get it was just by demonstrating that I was capable of doing things.And eventually, if she really was adamantly against somethingand I really thought I could do it, I would just do it. And. At the end of theday, it may have led to some strain, but ultimately in the end, she understoodafterwards that I was just trying to show that I could, I could complete what Iwas trying to set my mind to.You know, she was pretty adamant against me becoming a DJbecause she didn't think it would be good for me with my medical condition. Andso because of that and because of my dad previously being a DJ and [00:18:00] thinking it would be a really hard worldto navigate for someone on the spectrum and all these other things, she did notwant to get me DJ equipment when I was younger.So I went on and bought my own. And then three years later shecame to see me play. She was like, Wow, you're really good at this. Like, youshould be doing this professionally. I'm like, I am, should. I've been tryingto tell you for the last three years is that I, I'm good at what I do and I'mokay with the trade off that it affects me medically because I make a bunch of peoplehappy and that's okay with me.But I think that not everybody has the ability to advocate likethat, Right? So, I would just say if you are a, a teen or a young adult outthere and you're saying, Man, I really wish my mom or my dad would like justget, get this point through their head. Just sit them down and be like, Look,at a certain point, there's gonna come a time when you just can't protect meanymore and I need to know how to navigate the world.And I think having that come to Jesus moment with them willreally, really help [00:19:00] open their eyes.So De'Vannon: the, thestrain that you spoke of between you and your mother was, is that the primaryreason there was strain because, you know, you were getting away from hercontrol and it sounds like she wanted what she thought was best and you had adifferent point of view and maybe she took that personally.Is that what, Was there something else that strange y'all evenfurther? Jake: I think a lotof it came down to the fact that she ultimately, Wanted to, wanted what wasbest for me in her eyes. And I wanted what was best for me in my eyes. And Iwas the oldest, right? I was her first born. So automatically she's gonna bethe most protective because she hadn't done it before.And traditionally parents who have multiple children, the firstborn is often told like, No, no, no. Like very protected. But then the secondand third or however many kids come after are often allowed to do things thatthe first born may not have been allowed to. Like I wanted to play in middleschool.I was told no, but my brothers both joined band in middleschool. And unfortunately growing up, it's [00:20:00]not as big of an issue now, but growing up there was a lot of resentment therebecause, well, why are you allowing my brothers to do the things you told me Icouldn't? But as I grow older, I kind of understand and try to piece togetherthose decisions and it starts to make more sense to me.But in the moment it created a lot of heat and strife. But alot of it, I think, did come down to the fact that yes, she. Wanted a lot ofcontrol, wanted to kind of in her mind, this is what's best. You know, I knowwhat's best, like I've done it. And a lot of it came down to me feeling like Iwas never quite good enough to live up to her expectations.And that kind of created a lot of headbutting where you know,being on the spectrum, a lot of these ideas kind of started fill in my head andwhether they were true or not, that's what became the image of my mother in mymind. Now we have come a long way since then. She is very supportive of mycareer now.She is very supportive of me now. She really does the best thatshe can, but as my fiance says, I think that she [00:21:00]is at the point where she just wants to be my, like, best friend and sometimesnot as much of like that's a point of mother figure, if that makes sense. WhichDe'Vannon: one wouldyou prefer? The best Jake: mother, or doyou want both?I mean, every kid wants to have that relationship with theirmother, Right? Where it was like you know, where. It's mom, right? Like I cancall mom and have her do cartwheels because I'm playing in New York City like Iwas last week. And you know, the reaction I got was, yeah, that's kind of cool.Okay. As opposed to like this overwhelming beaming of pride.For me that was a very big moment. And so I think there'salways a part of me that will want that relationship. But to understand thatyou have to go back to the relationship I had with her mother, my grandmother,which was, she was my best friend. She was absolutely, without a doubt theperson I was closest to on this earth.I came out to her first when I was like 16 and she's like,Yeah, okay, let me take you to the sex shop. Like let me help you. [00:22:00] Like if you need a place to, you know, doextracurriculars with people that's not your house, that's fine. You can do ithere. Like Grandma was the shit, like grandma used to have gay parties at herhouse all the time when she was younger.Grandma used to have all the kids in her neighborhood, but mymom and my uncle were younger, come over and party in her basement so that ifthey wanted to do drugs or something, they could do it under the supervision ofa, of a adult. And if they, something happened, she would rather to thehospital and all the parents in the neighborhood were fine with this cuz they'drather them be doing it under the supervision of somebody than doing it out onthe streets.And so these underground parties would just happen at mygrandma's house back, back in the day. And so she was literally everything Iaspired to be. She would give you the shirt off her back. I mean I very much soam my grandmother's child. And I think a lot of that bugs my mother in a waythat we are not as close as I was with, with my grandmother.But that was just because, you know, [00:23:00]grandmother, we call her, my mom and I were just incredibly close. We went toflyers games since I was a kid. We would talk sports. We often joked about theeulogies we would give at each other's funeral because that's how close wewere. If whichever one of us passed away first, like we had a very, very strongdynamic.She would not date somebody without my approval. Like it wasjust, she was like, Okay, like I, she's like, I need you to meet my grandsonand if he doesn't like you, then like, it's not gonna work. Like we were justthat close. It was that kind of a strong bond that some people just couldn'tunderstand.And I truly believe that even though she's no longer here in inperson, she's always with me in spirit. In fact, I always like to tell the. Andwhen she passed away, everybody assumed I would be devastated. I figured I'd bedevastated. But I went to the hospital, she just come outta surgery. She was ina coma, and I, I held her hand and I was like, Listen, like you've been througha lot in your life, girl.Like, you know, it, it's, it's okay. Like you don't gotta keepbiting this if you don't want to. Like, I will be okay. You will, you will be [00:24:00] okay. Like, I trust, I trust that we'regonna be fine, but if you feel like it's your time to go, then you know I'll beokay. And she squeezed my hand and I saw a tear come down her eye and I waslike, Okay.I knew that that's what we were doing. And I looked at her andI said, Just wait till I get back to your house before, before like anythinghappens because I can't be in the hospital. If you passed away, I will, I willhave a breakdown. And I drove back to her house and then I got the call that asI walked in the door, she had passed away.And then that. I had a dream where I, where she was there andwe spoke and we just spoke for hours and hours and hours. And she explainedlike, Look, I just want you to keep living your life. I don't want you toderail everything. Like, you know, this is what I need from you is to not stopliving because I'm never gonna not be there.I'll always be watching you. And then I was fine the next dayand I went about my life. Yeah, I was, I video1709663557: was De'Vannon: gonna askyou if you ever see her in your dreams because, you know, I see my grandmotherand my dreams, particularly in times of [00:25:00]stress and trouble and I had that strong relationship with my grandmother too.She, when I was a little crossdresser, running around at aboutfour or five years old in my, in an oversized shirt, one of my mom's belt andmy mom's little two inch pumps. You know, Granny would let me do that and she'dkeep a lookout in case my parents came back and give the signals I can get backin my boy clothes.And so, I'm here for the Grannys who watch out for the littlegay grandkids running around when the parents are too fucking stiff to get withthe fucking program. So you, it's just the most mindboggling thing. You know,grannys are born like the twenties and thirties and you would think people bornmore recently would be the more open minded ones, but they're just not.And so, so then your siblings don't necessarily have thisstrained relationship with your mom because she was more lenient on Jake: them. Yeah. Somy siblings actually both live out in California with my mother currently. I donot, I live about as geographically far away as I can [00:26:00]be on the East Coast.And you know, I think that, yeah, there, there, there's somestrain there, but not nearly as much as on that as we have. I actually don'thave the world's greatest relationship with my brothers either. In a lot ofways I explain that my brothers are very much like my mother. They're very typeA, they're very materialistic.Which is not, you know, you know, a bad thing in itself. Ifthat's what they are, that's what they are. Whereas I'm very much like mygrandmother, which is very type C. There is more than one right way to dosomething. Like if there's a start line and the finish line, how you get theredoesn't matter as long as you get there.My mother and my brothers, there's a start line and the finishline is really only one correct way to get to the finish line is how I kind oflike describe it. You know, to me my life has been a, a struggling journey,right? Like it's been, get knocked down, climb back up, get back down, climbback up. But the point is I always get back up and manage to get across thefinish line.Whereas, you know, in I think my mother and my brother's eyes,it's get back, get knocked down, but then go this way [00:27:00]as opposed to, you know, I'm like, you know, dude, a bunch of circles fall downa bunch of times, but I got there. But yeah, my brothers and I are starting todevelop a better relationship now.It. Great. I'm one of them is better than the other. They'reactually twins. So you know, there was always that to contend with. But yeah,I, I really am actually not close with a lot of people in my biological family.I do have a very close chosen family which, you know, we, in this community,very much so value, but as far as my biological family, I'm very close with mybiological father, but like not anybody else.De'Vannon: I am herefor all of the chosen family. Fuck this blood relative Jake: trauma andfamily . De'Vannon: The bloodrelatives can be very, very bad for your health. Y'all pick you a betterfamily. Do not have to contend with them. Blood relatives. Congratulations on the engagement. I heard you mentionedfiance. Jake: So actually funstory about that.[00:28:00] We actually had todo it twice. The first time I decided to do it at a pride party at Lobo. Wewere planning to do it the following month, but my mom actually got very upsetthat we didn't call and get her permission to get engaged and that she wasn'tthere. So she flew in the following month to Lobo and we did it all again sothat she could be a part of it.That is literally what we're dealing with which is not a badthing in itself. I get that she wanted to feel like she was involved, and I getthat it was a big deal for her. Her oldest was getting engaged. She's verytraditionalist in that way. I, you know, to me, I didn't really think it was abig deal in 2022 to have to call and be like, Hey, I'm getting engaged, youknow?But. I guess she felt she should have been informed and that'sfine. You know, And her, when she was my age, that was kind of the way it was.You know, Talk to your mother, talk to your father. Me. I'm like, Screw it. I'mjust gonna do this. Like, it was an auto whim decision at four in the morning.So like, you know yeah.But she did fly in the following month and we did it all againat Lobo in front of 400 people. Yeah. I mean, De'Vannon: [00:29:00] that's cute and all, but you lost me atpermission. Jake: Yeah, yeah. Itwas, it was a choice. It was a. De'Vannon: No, wedon't. We don't need nobody's permission to do the fucks we want to do. Butsee, that's why I'm always preaching for people to get over this addiction tofamily because inherent in blood family is a lot of control and a lot ofassuming that this person in the family or that person in the family cannot dothis unless we all agree it's good or something, some kind of bullshit likethat, that I tuned out years ago.I was like, Oh, hell no. . I observed my family. I'm like, Youknow what? All y'all's fucked up each and every fucking last one of y'all don'treally know how to live your damn life, so you not about to try to tell me howto live mine. Even though I am the youngest child. I got better sense than mostpeople in my family, if not them all.you know? So, mm. There there'll be no permission beinggranted. None of [00:30:00] this. I never cameout. I was like, If y'all can't figure it out, then shame on you. I'm doing myfucking life. Deal with it. . I mean, that's it myself Jake: to you bitches.That that's it. Like that, that's a hundred percent. It's, there's a ton ofcontrol.That's why I distanced myself from a lot of them. De'Vannon: Yeah. So Ijust wanted to point out we've been using the word chronic with this disease,y'all. And so what that means is that it's not like, and the opposite of thatis acute, meaning that it would go away over time or through treatment. Chronicmeans that, in this particular case, that there's really no like set cure forthe mitochondrial diseases.Well, so what they were treated with is like vitamins, physicaltherapy, I mean, not any kind of therapy to help the patient feel better, tohave a more comfortable life. They'll treat the symptom as they come up withvarious medications and stuff like that. But like with hiv, which is what, youknow, I have a history of.There's no way to like just say get rid of it. You manage thesymptoms and then you just promote an overall healthy [00:31:00]life. So when we say chronic, that's what we mean exactly. And so his websitey'all is jake maxwell productions.com. Of course that will go in the show notesand then the social media and all of that will be there too.So I bring up the website because this, I want you to tellpeople about that website and about how it all got started. I read where whenyou were 24 that you decided that you were gonna stop feeling sorry foryourself and stop letting your condition define you. So I want you to talk tome about this turning point that happened when you were 24.I want to hear about how your mind was before, cuz it soundslike you were in some. Pity party or a state of low self-esteem or feelingsorry for yourself or something like that, which can happen to us when we getsick or, or you know, we, or when we're fighting these uphill battles. So talkto me your mindset before you have this revelation at 24 and then Jake: after.Yeah. So, you know, [00:32:00]to understand that you kind of gotta go back to like when I was 18, it's alittle bit of a journey, right? So I had all these aspirations as a kid of allthe things I would be doing with my life. And, you know, a lot of them I hadachieved, like, I worked, started working in politics when I was 16.I was on a presidential campaign, I was on a senate campaign, Iwas on a congressional campaign. Like I had done all this stuff by the time Iwas 22. In fact, in 2016 I worked as a presidential and was like the youngestone as a field director in Virginia. So without a college degree. So I had, Ihad like accomplished that I did what I wanted to do on that front.And then, you know, 2016 happened and the whole world justkinda. Got flipped upside down. And I was not happy with the state of the worldand I was unhappy with where I was at with my life. I was going through thissituation where my grandmother had just passed away. And even though I was notreally affected by it as much as I was there, there was some lingering effects,obviously from losing that [00:33:00] strongconnection that I had.And I kind of, you know, was doing this DJ thing. I had, youknow, actually I've been in a kink relationship, not a, not a dating one, but akink one that it just ended and it ended very, very, very badly. And I was justlike, you know, I'm unhappy. I have this condition that's gonna kill me. Like Ihave, this is what was going through my mind, not currently, but at this timeit was like, I have this condition that's gonna kill me.I'm running into a wall. Like I'm, I don't know how to set pathforward. I haven't gone to college. Like, what, what am I doing? Like, what'sthe point? And. Eventually, like literally I was just lying in bed and one ofmy other friends called me and invited me out to a kink club, ironically, whichis how this story starts.And I was like, I wasn't gonna go, but he didn't really give mea choice. He said, You're coming or we're gonna come pick you up and take youregardless. So it's like, all right, I'll go, you know, what have I got tolose? And I went and at this party I met someone named David Merrill. [00:34:00] And this person was the catalyst for my DJcareer.Over time me and who would eventually become my chosen brother,best friend, and all around, like biggest support for me in my life. Corey, akaPhoenix. He, we would do kink demos at David's party. Corey would like flog me,right? And that, that's how my career started. And then one day I went to Davidwas like, David, can I like just dj?I was like, The DJ's not here. Do you mind if. Just try. And hewas like, Yeah, I mean, you know, it can't be any worse than we've ever had, sogo for it. And I went up there and I'm jamming and I'm having the time of mylife and I get done and I'm like, Man, that was awesome. And he's like, No, no,it wasn't, but you have potential and I can see it in you and I can teach youbecause you have something I can't teach, which is drive.You have drive and determination and I think you can get thereif you get someone in your corner to give you the support and the skills thatyou need. And I'm gonna do that for you. So sure enough, every day for like ayear, I'd go over to David's house and [00:35:00]I'd work on DJing and he'd show me things. And then eventually he startedbooking me at his parties.And then the next thing you know, I'm doing more of his events,not just the one. We moved to another event at another event, and I'm startingto get a little bit of a following, and then we kind of hit the turning pointmoment for me, which is when I get reached out to by a bigger promot. and they'relike, We would really like to book you.We think you're great. We think you're talented, but we don'tlike that you're non-binary and we don't like that. You don't really look likewhat a traditional circuit party DJ should look like. Mm-hmm. because I don'treally have the AB and I'm not like ripped and I'm not, all these other thingsthat traditional circuit parties, DJs at that time looked like and I'm like,Excuse the fuck outta me.The hell does that mean? And they were just like, Well, youknow, we just don't think you'll like, react well of the, probably will connectwith you like some of our other DJs. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Holding my beer.So I I looked at Corey and, and my friend piloted time and we start, we startedLobo and [00:36:00] that that's what it was.We, we basically started it because we wanted a safe space foreverybody else who wasn't welcome at these, these circuit parties. So wedescribe Lobo really as like a diverse circuit party. You're, you're not gonnawalk in the LOBO and see a bunch of cookie cutter gs, you're gonna see theeverybody else.And that's what we describe it as. You're gonna see the bears,the kinks stirs, the pups, the furries, you know, your big guys, your littleguys. Everything in between except for that traditional, you know, Abercrombieand Fit case, so to speak is how I describe it. And they come too, but in thiscase, they're not the majority.They're in the minority. And the looks on their faces when theywalk in is what makes it like just that much more special because they, it, itdawns that this is a party for everyone and always will be. But that turningpoint really for me, essentially be, it happened on a whim because I was justlike, you know, I need to stop trying to be what my mother wants.I have to stop trying to be what everybody else wants me to be.And if I really. [00:37:00] To be happy andDJing makes me happy. Why not? Like I am not beholden to anybody else'sexpectations of me. I am not beholden to anybody else's what they want me tobe. I basically was like, this is my life. And yeah, I may have all theseconditions and whatever, and this, that, and the other, but you know what?There are people far worse off in the world than me who aredoing far greater things. And sure, I could sit around and be sorry for myselfand sit in my room and just cry and do all these things, or I can go out and dosomething about it. And by doing something about it, it has now gotten to thepoint where we could start the nonprofit, where we can get back to others whomay need that quote unquote kick in the butt supporting shoulder to get themgoing.Going De'Vannon: Talk tome. I commend your ambition here and for fighting to maintain a positiveattitude, making decisions. I appreciate the mentor who helped to mentor youand groom you into DJing. So talk to me about how you give back. You mentionedlike you go back to your high [00:38:00] schoolfrom time to time to give out.I know Lobo has some sort of youth initiative. So tell me aboutall the ways that you give back. Jake: Yeah, so thefirst and easiest way to say how Lobo gives back is Lobo has a policy that we willnever price anybody out of a party. If you can't afford to come to our party,you just shoot us a message saying, Hey, I need a ticket.And we give you a ticket. It's a no question to ask policy,like we will never tell somebody that you cannot come to a community event. Andthe reason for that is no one should be told, Oh, well, we know how much thismeans to you and we know that you have friends in your community here, butsorry, if you can't afford the $15, you just can't come.It is a literally no question to ask policy. We will give you aticket. Now, if that starts happening every single month, we may have a talk,but essentially the way it is is we buy a block of tickets every month as Loboto just give out the people. We don't ask why we don't ask the policy. I need aticket done.Here you go. Like, that's it. And again, the main reason forthat is because we know the impact this has on people. We made that decision atday one that we were never gonna be the party that was so full of itself that wewere gonna tell people if you can't afford to go too, too [00:39:00] bad. So that's, that's the first thing.And that happens in every city we go to all across the country.At every party we do that is like a non-negotiable. So do we lose money on itsometimes, But it's worth it for us because Community first, that's what ourevents always been about. Recently we also launched the nonprofit which is theLOBO initiative.I believe we officially now have finally, finally gotten ourletter from the irs. I have to check. It's supposedly in the mail, but it'staken them like eight months to officially get back to us cuz they were sobacklogged. But that's why we've been like more quiet about it saying that it'sbeen approved.And so we're starting to roll it out. And the main, the mainfocus of the non-profit essentially is like to focus on LGBTQ specificallyyouth. Adults and adolescents and with a key focus on those with disabilitieswho wanna chase their dreams, but just don't have the financial support or theemotional support to get there.The easiest way I describe it is, you know, one of our [00:40:00] programs is a mentorship scholarshipprogram. You tell us I wanna be a dj, we buy you equipment and give you amentor in that field who will help you. And it's too pronged for this reason.One, getting the equipment is great, but you also need someone to help opendoors for you, right?Because that's how all fields work. It's all aboutcommunication and networking, and you can be really, really talented, but ifyou don't have somebody to sometimes help get you in, that can be half thebattle. If you don't have someone you can call like, Hey, I just got offeredthis opportunity, do you think it's legitimate?That can be a huge thing. So we pair you with a mentor to helpteach you your craft, but then also continually be there to help you along yourjourney. And that's one, when we explain it, what we don't do is give out cashvalue. We give out equipment, we give out classes, we give out basic thingsthat can help people go after their dreams.Because that was the big thing for me. Had I had that supportearlier, who knows where I would be now. Wow. De'Vannon: There wasa time that I wanted to become a DJ and I did go and research it. I would go tolike the Guitar [00:41:00] Center and justdifferent places and try to Google it and find it out. But it is so you, it isnot as simple as it, you know, getting turntables or now, you know, like aMacBook, you know, and putting an app on it and then just going, Hey, I'm gonnathrow a party , you know?You know, it was so, it was so, such a struggle to figure outwhere the fuck do I get started? Okay. So I get the equipment, I startpracticing at home, then where do I go? Do I go knock on doors? You know? Youknow. So the fact that you streamlined this process and. And, and to at leastgive people a chance and they're gonna be those who start, who won't keep downthe path.But at least they could say that, you know, they were given anopportunity, right? In being willing to open doors or people in the industry,you're trying to give them what you got, which is somebody to help to vouch foryou. You know, I, you know, when you started DJing, I wish to the heavens, youknow, to God that we had that in every industry, you know, because there is somuch good talent out there, but it's [00:42:00]so much of it to this day.It's about who you know is like that in the author industry.You know, I'm a good writer, you know, but, you know, and I have a lot of goodstories to tell, but trying to get it out there is difficult because there's nolike, you know, mentor for, you know, for me to do that. So I appreciate thefuck outta that.Oh my God. Like, who knows? Maybe I'll, I'll go to DC orsomething and join your initiative and become a DJ at Laugh . Jake: So, so one ofthe cool things about it is we actually have mentors in all fields. We havepeople who work in the author industry. We have people who are writers,artists, DJs. Like I use DJ as the example, cause that's the easiest way tosay, but we, some of 'em reaches out to us like, Hey, I wanna be a film adirector.We have film editors who do YouTube, who are big YouTube starsand all these other things who will help, you know, teach them and we'll sendthem a camera and we'll be like, Hey, you know, here you go. Here's who youreach out to, you know, talk to them. Our whole thing is basically, if you tellus what you wanna do, we will find somebody who can help you and get you whatyou need.It's, it's really [00:43:00]that simple. And that is why, you know, we believe that it's so important tohave this because it's one of those things where you. There are so many people,like you said, there's so many fields who are ridiculously freaking talented atwhat they do, but they just don't have the monetary support, they don't havethe equipment support, they don't have the mentor to open doors.And so because of that, they fall through the cracks. And thatis what we want to pick up the pieces in because especially in the disabilitycommunity, but across the LGBTQ and really all communities in general, youknow, people slip through the cracks and that's when we have this opportunitywhere we miss so many great, talented people.Hallelujah. Jesus. De'Vannon: It does.Well then we'll talk after the show about what you might or might not do forme. You know, I can't lose anything by asking you know, so I don't like howthey were trying to change you. You know, that [00:44:00]opposition you met for being who? Are, you know, because the only reason that,that, that production company would've reached out to you and told you all ofthis would've been because they had in mind the way that they could change youand make you into a different person.You know? Other than that, there's no reason to reach out andbe like, We love everything about you except for who you actually are. Sochange that and then, you know, we could make this work. I come up against thatin the writing industry because I write very like real, you know, if we'retalking about getting fucked in the ass and come spraying the place andshooting up meth and blood on the ceiling, and then that's what the fuck we'regonna say.We're not, there's no other way to say it cuz of what happenedhappened. But a lot of people are very conservative who hold a lot of power ina lot of different industries, especially in the music industry and it peoplewho, who create very polarizing art, you know? You know, it sucks when yourwork lands on the desk of that conservative bitch, you know, you know, in thepublishing house or in the, you know, be it music [00:45:00]or you know, literary or whatever.Because that person, I've seen them take like an adversereaction to work, whereas had had more liberal person gotten ahold of it, theywould've gotten a point as opposed to clutching their pearls and shit andcutting off their circulation. Now they can't fucking think straight, you know,about what's in front of 'em.So what cities is low in, because when I looked it up, onething, you know, like just what cities? I know you're at least in dc, Columbus,Ohio, Virginia Beach, Norfolk area, Jake: where else?Yeah, so our website is a little bit behind because we're growing much quickerthan one person could keep up of it. But currently we are in Norfolk, VirginiaBeach.That's one. Columbus, DC, Pittsburgh, New York with, have acouple other cities on the, on the way. In addition to some other ones thatwe'll be returning to, but those are the big ones that we're at regularly. Wealso have Richmond coming soon. [00:46:00] Inaddition to Lobo the party, we also have Lobo, the drag show slash drag brunch,which is in New York, Norfolk, and DC as well.Which we do to elevate Queens who just wanna get experience andalso those who are incredibly talented. So we do that. And those, that's wherewe are currently. I can't say some of the other cities we haven't announcedofficially yet, but we do have some more in the wings coming soon. De'Vannon: Okay. I'mtaking a note on that logo drag show.I'll be in New York in November. Jake: Well, weshould, we should talk, we should talk De'Vannon: just thefirst in November, so we'll see. What's going on for sure. So, so the circuitparties, you know, they're only like, The prices I saw were like 10, $15.That's not super expensive to begin with. For what a circuit party could cost.Yeah. . So I thought the pricing was very, very humble and I'mso pleased to hear that you're really going out of your way to reach [00:47:00] for PE people. Do you have like a story ofsomeone who came, came to one of your events or one of your locations? Like abefore I get before and after story. Jake: Oh yeah, I gotplenty.We get, we get messages from people all the time who haveliterally said that our event has changed their life. And that's one of thethings that actually I'm gonna pull one up right now. Sorry. I gotta find itcuz there's one I do like to tell like at the very onset because it was someaningful.That's fine. While De'Vannon: you'relooking for that, I have another question. So in all of these cities, do youhave like an office? Do you have people who work for your organization? Andthen congratulations on officially becoming a nonprofit. Yes. So, so do youhave a physical location? Cuz these parties don't happen like, say every Jake: weekend.So the easiest way to explain it is Lobo, the party is forprofit and the LOBO initiative [00:48:00] isnon-profit. Okay. So Lobo the party, which is where we are in multiple citiesofficially, we don't have offices, but we do have people on the ground in allthose cities who, and we have telegram chats for every city we're in.So people can come and join and find that sets of community forthe city that they're, they're going to. So there's a Lobo Columbus chat, aLobo DC chat, a Lobo Norfolk chat. And these are like just telegrams andmessages that pups use. And what it is, is it's just another way to create thesets of community where people can just kind of come and express themselves.We also have the one community shared for Lobo as all citiesshare it. It is the Lobo Horny Jail chat. You can probably figure out what happenedin that chat. But that is because we don't believe in people being restrictedand expressing themselves. We've never been about that. Like, go on, expressyourself, like, you know, do your thing.So that is a chat for all the cities to come and do theirextracurricular horny stuff with. But that one's always fun to just kind of popin and see what's going on. But yes, we do have people and admins and all those[00:49:00] chats. We also have a communitydiscord where people can go. So that is how we connect with everybody.I'm always reachable. That's partly why I'm so tired is becauseI respond to messages like 24 7. But yeah. One of the things we tell people iswhen we go to a city, we don't just wanna be the party that comes and takesyour money and leaves until we come back. We are all about celebrating andlaying down community roots.And a lot of these cities already have community organizationsoutside of us. So we work with them, with those local organizations to helpthem get funding or whatever we can do. To help elevate their events because wedon't need to have a monopoly on this type of an event that doesn't helpanybody. If they're succeeding, we're succeeding, and that's what we're allabout.De'Vannon: Okay.That's pretty kick ass. So basically since you have a network of people canjust, they do like meetups and stuff like that, they can still physically reachout and text somebody in these various cities if need be. So can find all ofthis at the Jake: website. [00:50:00] All the telegram chats are on the website.We also have a general announcement channel on Telegram, whichhas all this info. We put it out on twitterer regularly and rotation how tojoin the chats. But basically on all of our socials, you can usually find yourway to whatever chat you're looking for. Or if you have the wrong end up in thewrong chat, someone will immediately get you to the right oneBut oftentimes what we see is that people join all the LOBOchats because they just want to, even if they're not anywhere near that city.Oh, how fun. Okay. Do you have that before? I do. So one of the messages we gota couple actually January of this year was from a friend of mine who's becomevery close to me, and the message kind of went something like this.It says real talk. I have to say straight to you. I can't tellyou how grateful I am for Lobo. I only found out about it around a month ago,and it became genuinely one of the best months of my life, arguably the best.I've had a very long history of depression and loneliness. I wasn't exactlypopular in school growing up, being a nerdy, painfully shy, weird kid, and I [00:51:00] was really nose diving this year.Then I ended up being introduced to this community and havedone a total 180 as far as my mental health goes. For the first time in mylife, I felt like I've had a true friend group, and I can't describe howamazing that felt. Put it this way, the day after the December lo, I feltreally strange, and it took a few hours into that day to realize that thatstrange feeling was because it was the first time and I couldn't begin to guesshow long that I woke up about a black cloud on my mind.The sun seemed brighter, My vision was. The world just felt somuch more alive to me as I've reflected on my past what's happened for me, thispath, I realize how much I was doing mentally in 2021, and the conscious of howamazing this December's been like for me, I've come to swear, Lobo has prettymuch saved my life.It was getting that bad for me. I really don't think I couldthank you enough for making Lobo a thing. De'Vannon: Well, I'mhere for all of that. Let me go on ahead and give you a clap and Jake: yes, , and youget messages like that and just like it hits you so deep. Like, I mean, I crysometimes when I get messages like this [00:52:00]because one of the things that is sometimes hard for me to realize is thatwe've created something and I, I often get credited for, but it's me and myentire team and my co-owner and best friend and brother by choice Phoenix.Like we have built this thing from the DC Eagle distinct littleparty in DC into something so much bigger than we could have ever imagined. Andsometimes I especially kind of live in this bubble where I'm not aware how manypeople it's impacting or the impact it's having. And so when we get that memessages like that, it's like, oh my goodness.And at the end of the day, you know, people are always like,Well, why? Like, why even bother keep doing it? And I always tell them thefollowing, which is that, yes, doing Lobo and being on the road every weekendand traveling is terrible for me medically and will probably take a coupleyears off my, off my life.And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that trade off. And thereason for that is very simple. I am making people's lives better. My team ismaking people's lives better. We are creating a community event [00:53:00] that is impacting the world. And that'sall I've ever wanted. If I was to die tomorrow, I, I could leave a legacy thatwe've changed some people's lives and that's all I've ever wanted to do.And so for me, if you're telling me that I would lose a coupleyears in exchange for saving a couple. Then that's fine. If you're telling methat I can leave the world in this, a legacy in this event that basically willhelp to create, find people of their chosen family, I'm okay with that at theend of the day because that is what I've always wanted to do, is basically livelife like my grandmother and leave the world in a better place than I found it.And right now there's a lot of people leaving the world in amuch fi place than they found it. But if I can just impact one person, then itwas worth it for me. Amen. Everything De'Vannon: you justsaid. I mean, and you mentioned having, you know, fighting the disease andtraveling and you know, and I know DJs don't exactly get off work at 5:00 PM soI know, I know you're worthy for the wee hours.So is there any sort of special thing that you do to keep yougoing? Because [00:54:00] I know you mentionedfatigue, it can be one of the symptoms. So how are, how do you manage thedisease and do all that? You do Jake: Red Bull, ,lots and lots of Red Bull. No the DJ answer is Red Bull and Caffeine pills, butthe actual answer is basically from Monday to really, like Thursday it's sleepand recovery, and then starting on Thursday night it's travel, and Friday andSaturday it's go, and then we start the process over again.That's really what it is. It is draining. It is hard. It isrough. It is not easy with the mito, but at the end of the day, like I alwayssay, it's, you know, the look on people's faces at Lobo and the messages thatkeep me going. It's, it's knowing that we're doing something and. Thatultimately I get to live a life that many people wish they could.And I'm very appreciative for that. But I'm also not mistakenon how many people sacrifice for me along the way to get me here. You are a De'Vannon: gratefulmotherfucker. I [00:55:00] love it. So, toexplain, Jake I read where you do like, you create events for people withsensory issues. I wanna know what sort of sensory issues you speak of and howyou tailor Jake: it.Yeah, so that's something new we are still laying thegroundwork for, but that we have done. And what we are trying to do isbasically create nightclub events for people who, who have sensory issues,sensory overload, loud noises, lights like, you know, we can do. One of thethings that people often say is, and this is especially true in kink andnightlife just for the record, is I can.Make this accessible? Well, sure you can. You just don't wantto, you don't wanna put any extra legwork to get it there. There are times whenyou can't make something accessible. Like if there's only a stairway up, I getthat. But, you know, don't tell me you can't play the music at a lower level ona, on a certain night and not do a bunch of flashing lights.Like that's, that's an easy fix. That's an incredibly easy fix.It's just the fear of alienating your ongoing base is what is preventing people[00:56:00] in a lot of ways with a lot ofdisability accessibility. It's fear of alienating those who might not wantthat. And you can hear I think some of the passion in my voice when we talkabout this, because as someone with a disability, I never want someone to feellike they can't go somewhere because of something that may trigger somethingfor them.So one of

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #76: Racism In Drug Policy, Separate Healing Spaces For POC From White People & Stopping Whiteness From Controlling The Narrative, With Ifetayo Harvey, Founder Of The People Of Color Psychedelic Collective

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2022 62:08


INTRODUCTION: Ifetayo Harvey is the founder and board president at the People of Color Psychedelic Collective. Ifetayo's experience of growing up with her father in prison brought her to drug policy reform work at the Drug Policy Alliance. In 2013, Ifetayo was the opening plenary speaker at the International Drug Policy Reform Conference in Denver, Colorado. Ifetayo briefly worked at the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies in 2015 where she was inspired by Kai Wingo's Women and Entheogens Conference in Cleveland, Ohio. Ifetayo worked at the Drug Policy Alliance (DPA) for five years because of her passion for ending the war on drugs. While at DPA, Ifetayo penned the piece Why the Psychedelic Community Is So White in 2016 and began organizing other folks of color and allies in psychedelic circles. Ifetayo comes from a family of seven children raised by her mother in Charleston, South Carolina. She has a Bachelor's degree from Smith College in history and African studies. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      Breakdown Of What The POCPC Is·      Whiteness Controlling The Narrative ·      Racism in Drug Policy·      White Fragility ·      The Need For POC To Have Healing Spaces Apart From White People·      The Benefits Of Psychedelics – And Risks·      Stories Of Racism In The South·      Theory Vs. Real Life·      Internalized Superiority & Internalized Inferiority ·      The Student Loan Forgiveness Hypocrisy   CONNECT WITH IFETAYO: Website: https://www.pocpc.org/Website:  https://www.ifetayo.meYouTube: https://bit.ly/3FS2Z9xFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/pocpsychedelics/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pocpsychedeliccollective/Twitter: https://twitter.com/POCpsychedelicsLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3Fx8p9H  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Ifetayo Harvey is the founder and board president at the People of Color, Psychedelic Collective, y'all. I love the name of that organization so much. I believe, I'll say it one more time. I said the people of color, psychedelic collective. Fat's experience of growing up with our father in prison ignited the spark that has led to this amazing individual's body of work in the area [00:01:00] of drug policy reform.Please join us today as we discuss politics, drugs, and how racism and whiteness plays into all of.Hello, all, all my beautiful souls out there. I appreciate each and every last one of you and the time that you take the tune into the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. Well, if today we're gonna be talking a lot more about drugs than we are gonna talking about the Lord, hallelujah. But I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus didn't do a little hit of something back in his day and you know what I mean?Just cuz it ain't written, don't mean it didn't happen. Hallelujah, tabernac and praise. So the day I have with me, lovely, lovely, lovely darling, lady by the name of Epi Atta darling, and she is the founder of the People of Color psychedelic Collective. Ain't that a fucking mouthful? I'm gonna say it again, [00:02:00] y'all.I'm say it again y'all. The people of color, psychedelic collective. My homeboy, Jay Schiffman, over at the Chooses Struggle podcast told me about this individual here and I felt like Dracula as we getting close to Halloween, I need to just sink my bangs into her. And today I have her. How are youIfetayo: Oh, I'm doing great now that I'm talking to you. Oh, how are you doing?De'Vannon: fan? Fucking fantastic. And you know, I'm on this whole new like drug discovery journey myself, and what I've been doing is working hard to siphon off out of my mind. The voices that I realized that were present affecting me that I didn't know. And what I mean by that, Voices from the military, voices from the church, voices from my parents' house.You know, I'm thinking, I say for instance, I used to really look [00:03:00] down upon drugs, you know, and things like that. Well, you know, I thought about it. It was like, okay, where the fuck did I get that from? Was that due to personal discovery? Was that what they told me? You know? And so many of the voices in my head I've been finding lately, even as I'm approaching 40, you know, it's still, you know, what they told me.And it's not actually my own voice. I've been angry about it. I've been pissed off about it. I've been up about it, I've been down about it. And so I love the work that you do. And it's so on tempo at the times right now, is this resurgence? You know, psychedelics is coming now. You started this back in 2017. And and so just tell us about. What in your words, the people of color psychedelic Collective is and why you started it?Ifetayo: Yeah, so people of Color Psych Collective, we are a non-profit doing education and community building for folks of color interested in learning about [00:04:00] psychedelics and ending the war on drugs. And so since we've started, we've done panel discussions, We've had a conference, we had a retreat and of course this covid started happening.We've done online workshops on varying topics. And the reason why I started was because I was tired of seeing whiteness dominate the conversation on psychedelics. And I was also tired of people trying to have conversations about race where they were afraid to speak directly on race and . Okay. I wanted to make a space for people to be able to.Talk about those things without having to worry about, Oh, what is this white person gonna think? Or, Oh, is white fragility gonna get in the way? Because a lot of times it does. So that was part of my motivation. The other part was [00:05:00] prior to me creating my organization, I worked at the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, which is also a mouthful. People call it maps. And they do clinical research on psychedelics. And so I worked there for about eight months and I was the only black person there. And it was clear during my time that like working on, you know, racial trauma for black folks was not a priority. Working on even unpacking. The whiteness of the organization was not a priority either. And even involving black folks or other folks of color in their research wasn't our priority. And to me, in my mind, I was just like, we as black people, we have, you know, some, some of the highest rates of trauma in this country. You know, just [00:06:00] given our, how we got here, our story in this country. You know, I, I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, where we have a number of plantations, old historical sites is where a lot of us were brought through, right?A lot of our ancestors. So to me it just didn't make sense. , Black people's trauma wasn't being talked about. Indigenous folks'. Trauma wasn't being talked about or centered in these conversations around trauma. A lot of times it center just white, middle classness. Right. I was just tired of our trauma and our pain and our healing being second to theirs, and I wanted to create a space where we could talk about our experiences of using these substances, but also our experiences of the war on drugs and how it impacted our communities and how, you know, this new narrative of [00:07:00] psychedelics.You know, reemerging kind of leaves us out.De'Vannon: When you, Thank you for that beautiful breakdown. So when you mention the war on drugs, I like to to talk about it a little bit so, As I understand it, something I learned. I've been watching all my documentaries. I'm a documentary whore. I was watching that one, , How To Change Your Mind on Netflix. And then there's one on PBS called The History of Mental Illnesses.And they both went over like the different psychedelics. But what they, what they made me aware of was how psychedelics were used many years ago before, I think it was fdr, Franklin d Roosevelt, I think started that initial war on drugs. Don't quote me on that, but I think it was him. You know, And then all the clinical studies shut down because of the government policy.And so, and now we're seeing this resurgence of the psyche's coming back because the war on drugs clearly hasn't worked. And I was reading Emmi [00:08:00] Lord Emily Duff's book about, what's it called? Nope. I have to look that up because it's all about like marijuana. It's called grassroots and the rise and fall of marijuana, you know, in the book, her book and then the documentary gets into how, you know, drugs are demonized and they made it seem like people were gonna like, you know, smoke the weed and then go rape the white women, you know, and shit like that.You know, all of our mental health issues was us attacking someone else as opposed to something happening to us. But this is the trap we fall into when they, like you said earlier, going snatch our ancestors up out of Africa where they were just happy bouncing around doing them. Teddy's flopping in the red wind dick swinging as it should be Then here comes some people snatching you up and lo and behold, you [00:09:00] traveling internationally when you, you probably didn't know about no fucking other nations. And so, so the narrative was controlled by the people from CaucasianIfetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: so the c cassity of it all. And so I love how it's like, I feel like we're taking more of this power back or getting it for the first time maybe.You know, and a lot of this is coming through psychedelics, so I appreciate the fact that you, that you started this and then you stuck with it all this time. Covid has come, you still got it going on, so I commend you on that.Ifetayo: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you make an interesting point about the history of drug prohibition in, in the US I will say. So it was Nixon who started the war on drugs, the official war on drugs, but even prior to Nicks and there were a lot of drug laws on the books. You know, we had alcohol [00:10:00] prohibition in the twenties and that didn't work.And lots of people die cuz they're making , you know, moon shine and other stuff. And it sometimes was poisoned or, you know and you're right, a lot of drug. Ma rooted in racism, just point blank period. I think you used the example of like the whole reefer madness talking about like the fear of you know, black men or Latino men smoking weed and going to have sex with white women.And that's pretty much, you know, the same for cocaine. Opium, It's, they've all been all these drugs have been used to build a certain narrative around racial groups, and it's all been built around white fear and white fragility. Yeah.De'Vannon: fragile though it don't take, it don't take much to piss Karen off. [00:11:00] Not at all. Not at all. And I, look, I'm not talking about all you white people out there. I've had to be so much white dick in my life. Real and I intend to have some more. So it's not all of y'all. You know who you are, Karen, probably not even listening to this type of show.maybe you are, of you're open minded. I had a dream like a couple of weeks or months ago or whatever, getting in this dream. It's like the Lord was telling me I've been a gifted dream or so It was about like four or five. That's how, that's how the spirit first revealed himself to me was it was like in this dream and I've been dreaming ever since,Ifetayo: mm-hmm.De'Vannon: but, but recently I had this dream and it was like, it was like these like conservative people, like white people were singing a song.Ifetayo: Hmm.De'Vannon: Whenever you hear music in a dream, a good thing, especially, well if it's melodious and.Ifetayo: I D.De'Vannon: but the heart song, like the heart message of it, the heart of the song was, is like they were [00:12:00] asking me like, is there a way, is there something they could do different? Is there, was there a way that they, something they could change?And I felt like, and I felt like, you know, that there is a, now we've always had like, you know, even back in slavery days, the, the white defectors, you know, the, our allies, you know, But in this dream here, these were people who have been closed minded to the struggles of minorities and people who are different from them.And it's like, in this dream, it's like the Lord is showing me that. Like, maybe he's like, he's turning their hearts or they're changing their minds, or something like that. And so I'm, I'm revealing this dream here to say that I think that the work that you're doing and stuff like that, even though these people might not, you know, go on the news, go on Fox News wherever, and say they're changing their minds. I think it's making a difference because otherwise that dream wouldn't have come to me because I don't, I don't invest a lot of energy into trying to change conservative people. I focus on the people they have hurt, [00:13:00] and so I really think that what you're doing is going a long way.Ifetayo: Well, thank you. Thank you. That's, that's, that means a lot especially, you know, caring or connecting that to your dream. Cuz I'm really into dream meetings. And yeah, it's, it sometimes feels like our country's progressing into old ideas or outdated ideas, but I, I still have hope that, you know, that's not the case for a majority of the people, even though sometimes the kids feel like.De'Vannon: Yeah, that's why it's good to take a media purge Sometimes I just don'tIfetayo: Oh yeah.De'Vannon: for like a few days and just detox a media detox.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: So the services you provide, I'm gonna talk about 'em from your website, beautiful website, y'all. All that information will go in the showy [00:14:00] notes, as it always does. And then they're, they're on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, all of that will go in the showy notes. You know, you have like community building, education, arts and culture. So do kind a person like walk into like your office and receive some sort of service, or are you mainly doing outreach, like on the ground? What is it?Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So interesting. We are remote based. We've always been remote based since before the pandemic. I live in New York and I've been in New York for about six years, and I have folks in DC Chicago go. Colorado and California, and Portland, Oregon. So we don't provide any direct services partly because a lot of these substances are illegal. So we cannot legally, I mean, in some states, , well, I would say [00:15:00] decriminalized, but in some, in some states it would be decriminalized. But we can, we can't do like psychedelic therapy or like a healing ceremony officially under our organization. But we do connect people, you know, if someone like reaches out to us and say like, Hey, I need help.We can connect people to other services practitioners and other resources out there. And you know, before the pandemic we would go to different cities. Events and, you know, do discussions. Theres, so, like back in 2018, we did a kind of like a partnership panel with the DC Psychedelic Society and the Philadelphia Psychedelic Society.And we talked about patriarchy and psychedelics and that, I mean, much needed conversation. So we'll do, we'll do things like that. I hope in the future we're able to do more direct [00:16:00] services. We've been really focused on building our capacity as an organization. So like we recently incorporated as a non-profit and we're waiting for our 5 0 1 C three to come in and we we received our first grant last year.So yeah, we're, we're, we're slowly building toward that. And I I put emphasis on the slowly because. I think that there's this trend in the site up space for everyone to wanna start their own group and just be known for psychedelics and . That's cool, but it's not sustainable. There's a lots of, you know, different people out there and, and psychedelics are powerful substances.And I am in no rush to, you know, I don't wanna say I'm, I'm not in a rush to give people psyched dogs. I mean, I'm not doing that, but I'm just not in a rush to do that because I know that they're [00:17:00] very powerful substances and it, they take some preparation and and it's also not something to play around with. I, I believe in building a strong container of care for folks if you're going to hold space for them. And I think you do that by being. Prepared. So studying and also just being ethical. So, yeah.De'Vannon: You all, I might have to get your Portland Connect and your New York connection referral cause I'll be in Portland at the end of the month dealing about doing some on the ground research.Ifetayo: Okay.De'Vannon: And I have some jet blue miles that I need to burn. And from New Orleans down here where near where I live, they Jet Blue only goes to New York Fort Lauderdale and Boston.And I've been all three of 'em already, so I may need to come fuck with y'all in the, in the end. Why?Ifetayo: [00:18:00] Yes.De'Vannon: So, so you mentioned a couple of other organizations that you partner with.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: You had mentioned maps already. I noticed that I dropped the donation on y'all earlier. You.no. No problem honey. But, and I'm not, I'm not really bragging about that.But when I did it, the, that, like the thank you page said like maps and everything like that. So are you still connected directly with.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Funny how that works. We are fiscally sponsored by maps. So before, I would say from 2017 to 2020, we were I believe we were, yeah, we were incorporated as a non-profit. And when we got our grant, we were kind of in a time crunch because they were like, We wanna give you this money and we're going to offer you a match component, a $10,000 match. So we're like, Okay, well we don't have a 5 0 1 C [00:19:00] three, so how do we do this ? And they're like, Oh, well, if that's the case, we may not give you the money. . No, I'm just kidding. They didn't say that. But we had to figure out like, how are we gonna do this? And so maps, we looked at a couple other organizations maps had the internal infrastructure set up so we could do that quickly and be able to receive our grant fully.So in a way I kinda, I kind of look at it as like . It's kind of like, Oh yeah, y'all owe us this, you know, so it won't be forever. But you know, it's, it's for now.De'Vannon: Yeah. Well, congratulations on your 5 0 1 3 C status. I, I know it's there. I just know.Ifetayo: ThankDe'Vannon: And y'all for, for those of you who don't know, MAP stands for Multidisciplinary association folks, Psychedelic studies. I didn't know this much research in this much [00:20:00]organization, this many organizations was built around this.You let the news tell it. You know, you let the media tell it. Everything about shrooms and all the different psychedelics is just the devil. you know, that's not, that's just actually not the case at all Now. Now I mentioned earlier some of the pillars that you mentioned on your website, community building, education, arts, and culture.I love a quote that you have on there from arts and culture. Then I wanna talk about the art show you did in 2021. Now you said, quoting from the website along with policy and education, art in all its forms, brings about cultural change. End quote. What does that statement mean to you?Ifetayo: Well, to me it means that, Cultural change is just as impactful, if not more impactful than policy change. I've worked for a few organizations that do policy advocacy work, and I, I don't do policy advocacy work. That's not my day [00:21:00] job. I'm more of a digital communications person. But I'm not very motivated by policy work cause I don't like politicians. And I think, I mean, yeah, politicians aren't to be liked either, right? Like we treat politicians like celebrities and I mean, fuck celebrities too, but yeah, we treat them like they're our friends and it's like, no, like screw those people. So and I think. Honestly, Bureaucracy's gonna be the death of a lot of us.Like bureaucracy in this country just stops a lot of progress from happening. And the way that our political landscape is set up in this country is just, it's just a mess. So . So that's that. I do believe, I do believe that policy can change people's lives, but I do think cultural change can be more impactful.It can be more fun, [00:22:00] it can be more engaging. And at my day job, I work for a caregiver advocacy org. We have a culture change department. And so what they do a lot of times is work with influencers, celebrities, artists, musicians, actors, actresses, and get them to kind of look at our issue a little differently and maybe speak on our issue, work with us, some of the folks. In the culture change department. They also work in Hollywood writer's rooms, so getting our narratives on TV shows in film. And I, I do think that work like that gets people talking a lot quicker. I often find that policy is very jargony and not easily understandable by the average person. And I do think that's partly done by design But I'm also, you know, I'm a, I'm a child of music [00:23:00]education. I grew up you know, in South Carolina studying music since I was a kid. And it had a huge impact on my life. And I feel like what I've been noticing is. That's kind of fading away as a part of our education in the US music and arts education. And so something I'm, I'm very passionate about overall, I think that, you know, when we get, you know, people who, with influence speaking about our issues, whether it be a celebrity or just a community leader, people start to pay attention. People start to think about it differently. Unfortunately, that's just how our society works.We need a celebrity or someone with influence to speak on our to speak on our issue. And, you know, I, Hmm, Yeah, I think that, [00:24:00] that's all I'll say on that.De'Vannon: We'll love it. And, and y'all can check out a video that has to do with this art show on the website. There's lots of videos on the website and and, and of course, obviously on their YouTube channel. I love how, you know, your videos bring so much of your work to life. Can you talk to us about like the, the, the education leg, because on your website there's like you speaking at. These different conferences and things like that, there's the one conference that you spoke at you know, according to the website, you woke up with a stomach virus that day or in a food poisoning. You had food poisoning that instead of canceling it, you, you took a seat and you went on ahead and you let the Good times rollers, where, say, down here in the Cajun land, Leslie Le Bon. So, so, so, so talk to us about, about your, your speaking engagements and how, what it's been like to travel with your message.Ifetayo: Yeah, yeah. That particular speech you're [00:25:00] referencing was last year in Vegas at Meet Delic. And that was an interesting event because it was like very industry side. And so I was speaking about how we need to move beyond just the notion of wellness and how wellness has shortcomings. I think that along with the resurgence of psychedelics in the media and just in our communities in general, we're also seeing, you know, a lot of talk of varying healing modalities.And while important, I think we, we could sometimes use wellness as an escape from actually organizing. Improving our communities. And I think that there are a lot of people in the psychedelics space who, who think that by taking psychedelics, they're going to be more [00:26:00] involved, more liberated than other folks without any, doing any political work or community organizing or building or that kind of thing. So I'm often, you know, the person in a lot of these events and conferences, kind of reminding people that like structural oppression exists and psychedelics aren't coming to change that. Because I think that for a lot of folks, they just think like, Oh yeah, just take psyched dose and boom, that's, you know, and I wish it was that easy, but it's not.So I, I have to remind people that. Sure you could legalize, psyched dogs or decriminalize psychedelics, but are you integrating those substances into a burning house? Cause I mean, look at our healthcare system. Look at, I mean, just to say of our country in general. I've also given talks on like why the why people of color need our own intentional healing spaces away [00:27:00] from white folks.And for a lot of people, this is just common sense , obviously, we, you know, people don't wanna heal in the same places or with the same people who hurt them. And a lot of times when we do try to have complex conversations around race, whiteness gets in the way and detracts and sinners itself and makes everything about them.So a few years ago I gave a talk in Oakland, California. at the Women's Visionary Congress, this is in 2019. And so I was giving a talk about why p POC and digital healing spaces are necessary. And you know, I'm basically saying what I just said about how whiteness the tracks from our healing and all that.And it was a very powerful speech. I'm not saying that to brag, but I'm just I'm saying that to say like, I noticed people [00:28:00] had a very strong reaction to what I was saying. Like people did not, they were just like, Oh shit. Like, damn, you know, . And at first I initially, I told the some of the MCs at the event, I was like, I don't wanna do q and a, cuz I don't feel like dealing with any white nonsense.Right. And the person I'm seeing, there's a mix up and she took questions anyway. And so I was like, Okay, I'll, I'll answer one or two. And this white guy John Gilmore, I believe he's a, he's a board member at maps or donor maps, some rich white dude He basically says like, Oh, well what if I start a Whites only conference?Wouldn't that be racist? And I was like, Well, that's already how maps this conference is. So you wouldn't really be doing anything different than what you're already doing. And [00:29:00] if you want to compare POC and facial healing spaces to like whites only segregation in the us that's, that's on you. That's . And yeah, he thought he was being cute and he wasn't.He, there's actually a video of you wanna watch it, of this whole moment happening, But he felt real dumb after he said that. SoDe'Vannon: Honey, you opened the library on his ass. Mama RuPaul would be so proud of you. The library was open. So y'all, what she's talking about is like basically how, how did I learn this in college? Like it doesn't really, it's not gonna benefit us if individual parts are whole, but the sum total isn't whole. Kind of like that. So if, if a few of us are making it, but everybody else isn't making it, then we're all still fucked.OverallIfetayo: [00:30:00] Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: you know, But so like in the future, how I know. So, so psychedelics isn't gonna solve everything overnight, instantly. Is there, Can it benefit us getting further along as a.Ifetayo: Hm, mm-hmm. . I think that it can, but with a lot of caveats, I think, well there's this, okay, there's this notion in this psychedelic space, a lot of researchers, a lot of just advocates in general or over height, the benefits of psychedelics and totally under height, the risk associated with psychedelics.So I've been in meetings with people, I've been on panels with people who are like, Oh, psychedelics have a low risk profile. What does that mean? does it? Like, what does that mean? You know? There have [00:31:00] been plenty of people who've, who've been traumatized by using psychedelics. There have been people who killed themselves, or people who killed their families while using psyched.Right? So it's, it's kind of messed up to kind of present it as, oh, this, it's safe. The, the risks are low, or, Oh, it's super dangerous, like you're gonna die to do it. Like, we have to give people realistic information. And so that's why I say caveats. Psychedelics aren't for everyone. There are certain people who can't take it, whether they're pregnant, you know, they might be on a certain medication, they might have a certain disability where it's hard for them to take psychedelics.A lot of people, you know, in this country are poor. I grew up poor in the US and you know, my mom's a single parent of seven kids. She could not afford to take off a day to go do some mushrooms or go to a retreat. So those are [00:32:00] those things I just wanna acknowledge are real. But can psychedelics help people in general and with trauma and move our, move our culture forward?Some, I think, yeah, it does have that potential under the right conditions. Something that people say in the psychedelic and harm reduction space is set and setting, which is like kind of a harm reduction monster that people use or they're referring to the place you're in, the setting and the place you're in also in your mind and in life in general and who you're what to say that you should only use second of substances in a place where you're comfortable and with people you trust.And I think that also applies on a macro level too. Psychedelics have the potential to yes, move us forward create better mental health options for folks given the right set and setting. [00:33:00] If we don't have universal healthcare, how much forward is it gonna move us if psychedelic therapy's outta reach?For most folks, if psychedelic therapy's the only thing legalized and recreational use to psyched dust is still legal, then people are still going to be arrested. So I believe that we have to make the conditions right for psyched ups to have a positive impact because if not, it's just going to be, you know, done into our already existing circus. And I don't think that will necessarily make a lasting, impactful change.De'Vannon: right? So you're saying if, if you gonna do this shit, do this shit, write, know, realistically cover everybody and be sure everyone has access to it and dribble the shit around and henpeck at it.Ifetayo: Yeah.De'Vannon: [00:34:00] So, so I wanted to to echo, so, you know, when, when she says like, poc, that's like people of color, like, like that's what that the elder peopleIfetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: would tell me, like the stories of the things that white people would do to them when they were younger. Now these people were born in like, say like, teens, twenties, 19 teens, twenties, thirties, growing up in the south here in Louisiana. I got called a nigger once,Ifetayo: All right.De'Vannon: there were other, like, I got called like a, like an a or monkey by this white boy one time, you know, in school, you know, things like that.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: Didn't happen so much that I would say like, that cemented my perception of white people because I've also had a lot of white people open doors for me in my life, whereas the black people stood in my way. So I was like at a juxtaposition in a crossroads and not really understanding some of the things, you know, some of [00:35:00] the trauma that the elders still held onto.But now that I'm older, I get how hard it can be to really heal of some things. And I would tend to stick with you even if, if you don't want it to. And I never could get it, but I get it now and I don't hold that against them. And so they would tell us how they'd be walking to school because, no, the black people didn't have cars.You know, they didn't have backpacks cuz they took like strings to just tie the books together and the white people would zoom by them in their cars and run them into dishes and stuff like that, you know, and try to, you know, and just, you know, You know, just mean shit like that. That doesn't make any sense.You're already in a, in a, in a nice vehicle. They're on the street walking to the same place you're going, You're even not even gonna offer to, to r pick them up and take them. That's, that's not bad enough. You're gonna try to run them over on the way just for shits and giggles, and, and that sort of shit.And now these people are like in [00:36:00] elementary school, low grade schools when this is happening. And when they grew up into worse racism. And, and then this trickles down into people who, you know, into, even in my generation. And so this is why, you know, you know when, when my guest here says that black people don't need to be around white people sometimes when we heal, this is whyIfetayo: Yeah. Oh yeah, a hundred percent. And it's, I've been in like those racial justice trainings with white folks. And for me it's really frustrating when I have to witness a white person, like realize that black people are people for the first time. It's really frustrating. And I, and I know a lot of white people, even some black people will be like, Oh, well what's the big deal?Like, why can't you just, you know, be in this racial justice training together? And I'm like, It's no, like, this isn't, this to, for them is theory for us. It's our [00:37:00] lives. And so, you know, what you were just sharing about the elders in your family know, stuff like dealing with those races attached is something that I grew up with.You know, my mom was born in the fifties in North Georgia. and she also told me stories of, you know, the night riders or you know, white people shoot a or cops beating up family members for no reason. Even my grandma, my grandma will be 86 this year. She , Her memory is amazing. But she was telling my sister that when she was a kid, Yeah, white kids used to call the niggers too.And she's like, Yeah, we pulled our pants down at 'em . So we, I think we as black people have to realize that like, yeah, this trauma shit is real. It's in our parents, our grandparents, it's in us too. [00:38:00] And if that means, you know, letting your white friend know that, Hey, I wanna talk about this. I've had white people try to talk about, you know, mass incarceration with me or, and you know, other things that.Hit close to home to me. And I don't like talking to him about it because if it's not something you experience, you aren't gonna have the same perspective as I do. Right. Just like I don't have the same perspective as my dad is, you know, he's someone who's actually been in prison. I wasn't. So, I can only share it from my perspective, but a lot of people will use these topics like incarceration as just spotter for conversation and or to look cool.And I'm just, I'm, I don't, that's not why I do this. Yeah. And a and a lot of people will say that, you know, they're [00:39:00] against their war on drugs or they're against this, they're against that. And I think on an intellectual or academic level, a lot of folks are, But when it comes to. on the street. It's a lot different.So I, that's why I think it's so important for us as black people to have our own space. And other folks of color too, because we're at a different level when we talk about these things. We're like in the senior seminar course, the white kids are in the one on one freshman course when they talk about it. A lot of them think that they're on our level when it comes to talking about this stuff, but they're not. And even, you know, I know my organization called the POC Psyched Collective, but same goes for a lot of non-black people of color too. Some of them just, some of them are racist a lot. Some of them are more racist than the white rednecks I grew up with. [00:40:00] So, yeah.De'Vannon: Oh, those are those Mexicans for Trump and shit like that, and the damn gay Republicans and shit.Ifetayo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd be like, Why are you so damn racist? Like, what is, where is this coming from? You know? But yeah, it's, it's a real thing, so,De'Vannon: Well, I think a lot of it gets back to what I was saying at the top of the show about how like the voices, you know, in my head, they mimic themselves as being my own, but they're not, you know, a kid isn't really just born racist. Somebody taught his little as that shit, you know, You know. But they haven't yet come to a point where they go, Maybe the elders in my family were wrong about a black person only being three fourths of a person.You know, They haven't reconciled their own voice yet, you know? Cause no logical person with a heart and a soul can look at, you know, things that happened in our country now and then in the history and [00:41:00] make the, make it logical. But when people's parents tell them that a black person is less than you, that Mexican person is less than you, that gay person is less than you, that gets ingrained in them.And it's, and I and I, I've studied hypnotherapy. I'm a licensed hypnotist. It is difficult. To upo, somebody's upbringing. You know those, that those voices out of their head. Now some people, some white people I know can't fucking stand their families. They're like, I can't racist sons of bitches. You know, I know some white people who, who have such white guilt, they're just like, God damn, and I was born the wrong raise.These white people ain't worth shit. And it stars my family up. They all burn in hell.Ifetayo: Hmm.De'Vannon: Who am I to argue with them? Know they family. I do.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know what you're saying [00:42:00] about the voices in your mind, like not always being you, but maybe mimicking you. Goes to show that a lot of this stuff, whether it be drug propaganda or white supremacy, takes a lifetime to unpack. You know, like a lot of times people, when they come to like an event I'm speaking at, they're like, Oh, well how can I get involved?I wanna do something. And I'm like, I, I'll tell people to slow down. I'm like, Just, y'all need to read first. , y'all need to read and learn first, because we all have that intern. Jaga, we all have biases against people who use drugs, especially people addicted, especially black drug users. And we also have internalized white supremacy, like black people do.We have internalized inferiority and white people. They have internalized superiority. And it, it kills me when I, you know, see why people who, they don't necessarily say this, but they act like they've done the work [00:43:00] on anti-racism and they're good. And it's like, no, this is a, this is a lifetime of work.And then some, you know, so you should never stop learningDe'Vannon: Knowledge is power. And as you're saying that, I was thinking about it, I was reading this report cuz I follow like the the decriminalization of the drugs in Oregon because I think that's one of the most miraculous and great. That's happening in my fucking lifetime, and I cannot wait to get there at the end of the month to show my ass.But one of these cops was whining because they were like, The power's been taken for us. The streets are just running rampant with drugs and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm all like, Bishop, you already, they're already running rampant with drugs. Stop being a drama queen. And what he's really whining about though, is his ability to be superior over people for having a chrome of dope or a half a tablet, half a Phoenix or whatever, and throwing a black boy in jail for one fucking pill, you know, for 15 [00:44:00] months or whatever.They, they can't do that to us anymore. So they're trying to act like, you know, the, the city's just lawless outta control, but really they hurt. They bud hurt, they hurt probably just cuz they can't dominate us and they ain't got the power no moreIfetayo: Yep. Yep. That's, that's facts. That's facts. And yeah. There's, there's so many like. Unfounded Narrows being pushed right now in a lot of major cities. Here in New York, it's the homelessness and the crime epidemic apparent, like quotes around that . But yeah, people there. I, so I worked on the campaign in Oregon.My old organization, Drug Policy Alliance funded that campaign. And so I was working the night that it got found or that the bow initiative got passed. And it was really crazy because being online and seeing people's reaction to it, [00:45:00] they were just like, what? Like people could not believe that it was real.And that was so fascinating to me because for a lot of folks, like my mom who's, who's 66, she never thought that she would be able to walk into a dispensary and buy weed. That was not the thing she thought about in the seventies, but she was my age. And now it's the thing in some places. So, yeah, it's, it's interesting and I think a lot of people are losing their shit over the fact that, yeah, they don't have power over us anymore.I mean, look at how many people reacted to the whole student loan forgiveness program that Biden in and out. People are mad. People are mad that black people have a chance at getting further in. That we have less barriers to go to college, that we have less barriers to get opportunities that makes people mad.And a lot of the progress that's hindered in this country is because of that. [00:46:00] Cuz white folks do not want us to have the same opportunities as them. That's why our public transit infrastructure in the US sucks. That's why people are okay with defunding public education because anything that benefits poor black people, , they don't care about, they're okay with increasing police budgets because that means there'll be more of them to keep us in check.De'Vannon: As the Lord said, amen and amen system. I mean it in the most non churchy way. But, but as the Lord said it, you know, in the Bible, you know, freely you have received, bitch freely give, I'm adding the bitch to it. Jesus didn't say that, but he probably thinking it. it, they, people are coming from a very, very bitter place when they bitter energy, whatever you wanna call it, negative space, LDL below, whoever.The shit ain't good when you have made it and you're gonna be particular about how the fuck somebody else makes it. So maybe you didn't get your [00:47:00] student loan forgiven, but I bet you somewhere in your life somebody gave you some shit you didn't really deserve and you took that shit, scooped it on up and I throwing off into the sunset and, and, you know, and ain't never even looked back.And you may not have even said thank you. And You know, so this is how people become hypocrites and stuff. The sort of stuff Jesus preach. Again, you may not think you being hypocritical, but the Lord remembers that time when, and even though you may have forgotten it, so the fuck what? I don't care my forgiven because I'm a 100% disabled veteran.I was praying, Lord, just wipe it all out for, you know, I don't care this, just let it go because I'm not a bitter broken bitch. And so I'm not sitting around here trying to find ways to be mad at people's progress. You know? Then half the politicians bitching. I love how the White House read them forIfetayo: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny.De'Vannon: you wanna, wanna complain about them getting this forgiven, but you got a few hundred thousand forgiven.Ifetayo: Yeah. Right, right. [00:48:00] Yeah,De'Vannon: 10,000, but you got half a million. Bitch, go set on your ass somewhere.Ifetayo: yeah,De'Vannon: have several seeds,Ifetayo: yeah. They're proud to be hypocrites. Like they're tol. It's like no moral compass. Just, and then the crazy thing is, is that they'll say they're Christians and it's like, and you know, it's funny, I didn't grow up Christian. I grew up in South Harris, so I was around a lot of Christians, but I didn't grow up Christian.And there's so many people who give Christians a bad name like that, who I'm just like, This is not what Jesus was about. like Jesus, Jesus was about. You know, like you were saying, giving freely, he fucked with sex workers. You know, he hung out with us gays. Like he, he was not about all this shit that they make him seem about, and he probably spoke some weed too, or did some shoes, I don't know.De'Vannon: Right. That's cause it's not written. No mean it didn't happen. There's a whole [00:49:00]30, the 31st, 30 years of his life isn't really, really recorded. After he ran away from his parents in the temple, he didn't really run away, but he was like, Y'all, I got shit to do. You know, So who fuck knows what he did. And so I think he experienced life personally. Yeah.I wanna talk about before we wrap it up, I wanna talk about some of the good things. So, so what have we talked about so far? Some of the stigma surrounding psychedelics, A lot about what your organization does because I want everyone to go to your website. I'm having my assistant add your website to my resources page.Ifetayo: Well, thank you.De'Vannon: yes indeed. Any time, my dear. Because I was inspired to go on a psychedelics journey when I watched you know how to change your mind on Netflix and the history of mental illnesses on pbs. I was watching how the veterans and everything like that who have been struggling with ptsd. I'm a veteran with ptsd, you know, all this psych drugs, they give us the VA to shit don't work, it just be having us like zombies.And I'm watching these documentaries. They did two or three MDMA trips and they haven't had the [00:50:00] ptsd, PTSD problems since. So I'm here for it for the veterans. I'm here for Joe Bidens trying to get the M D M. Legalize, even if it's just at the clinic level, bitch, I will take it because I have been locked up in the mental hospital for some of these veterans before I got four felonies and I'd probably been in the mental hospital about 4, 5, 10, 50, 11 times too.You, if, if MD a is what it'll take for some of my fellow veterans to stop imagining the square tiles on the floor moving and shit like that. The shit that I witnessed when I was in there and shitting all over the floor and whatnot. Bitch give him his goddamn M D M A now. What have you witnessed in your, in like, I know y'all don't give the drugs to people cuz you can't and stuff like that, but have you heard of any stories where somebody was this way and then they got better after doing the psychedelic therapy?You know, with, with a therapist or in a safe space, any positive tells, You can tell.Ifetayo: Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to share a little about my [00:51:00] story psychedelics, but in general, you know, I've heard people so many stories of folks saying that psychedelics have helped them with body image issues. Depression, ptsd, anxiety, O c D all kinds of things. For me personally, I got into psychedelics when I was in college. I was really depressed my senior year. And I was dealing with suicidal thoughts. I felt just passively suicidal. And it was my senior year, so, you know, when you're a senior, like turn up, you know, everybody's trying to be that . And for me, the depression hit me hard, like really, really hard that year.And it was debilitating. And, you know, I was, I had been in therapy for some time and I got prescribed like, well be shrimp. And I decided not to [00:52:00] take it cuz I, I was a little scared, I was cautious. My mom's also like a herbalist and they get a homeopathic stuff, so she's like against all that stuff.And so that's how, that was my upbringing. You know, I have a lot of friends who, Take antidepressants and it works really well for them. So I'm not, I'm not knocking it. But for me, I was, I was scared. , they said it would take away my sex drive. I was like, Oh no. Hell nowSo, so it was kind of crazy looking back at it. So basically I had interned at the Drug Policy Alliance as a media intern. I started writing about my experience of my dad going to prison and being deported, and they invited me to their conference to speak. So I spoke my first time really speaking in an audience that big. I like broke down in tears.It was [00:53:00] really cathartic for me. And, but at the same time, I knew I was under all that, I was still depressed. So I went to this panel on like end of life. End of life anxiety and p and psychedelics. So they were talking about treating people with like terminal illnesses like cancer with L S D. And I was like, Huh, this is interesting.For some reason I related to it, so I was like, I'm gonna go and do some mushrooms. So I went back to school after the conference and I was talking to my friends cuz I knew they dabbled in psychedelic. I was like how do I do mushrooms, ? At that point I only tried alcohol and wheat. I was so sonner in college.I, I still am. And so they're like, take three and a half grams, maybe put in some peanut butter cuz they taste kind of nasty. And then they're, then they're like, yeah, [00:54:00] like go in the woods or something. Like go in nature. Oh yeah. Have a sitter too. So I got my, I got my friend to, to sit for me and I ate the three and a half grams of mushrooms and went on a walk in the woods on this nature trail.It's really beautiful, overwhelming, at the same time. Experience. It lasted about eight hours for me, and it felt like a jolt that I needed in that time, like being really depressed and suicidal. I felt like I had this jolt just being like, ah, you know, like, of like release, but also happiness and beauty.Like it was showing me the beauty of life, why we're here. Yeah, it just, it, it just showed me a different side of life. It reminded me of my childhood imagination. Like we were in the woods and like the, the trees were glistening. The. The plants were talking [00:55:00] like, it, it just felt very surreal. I was, I was kind of freaking out.I was like, This is too much. So me and my friend, she took me back to my room and I felt a little bit better there. I was like, less freaked out. But yeah, it, it helped me see myself in a different context. When you are depressed, you're so used to a certain narrative that you have about yourself. It could be, Oh, I'm stupid, I'm dumb, I'm worthless, blah, blah, blah. when you take mushrooms or some other psychedelic, maybe you're seeing yourself from a, like, like, you're basically seeing yourself from a different person's perspective, like almost from the outside. And it helps you have a lot more compassion for yourself. Like you see yourself as a person, not as like,You. So I think that can be helpful [00:56:00] for anyone who's stuck in a rut, whether it be depression whether it be, you know, just bad habits that you've been trying to break for a long time. Yeah, and it, I mean, and the most important thing was that it just made me feel really happy. Like, I was laughing, like I never laughed before like giggling like a baby, you know?And that was really important because when you're depressed and down, your body forgets what it's like to laugh, like. And when you laugh like that, it's like, whoa. Like that feeling is so amazing. And when you're on Trus, you, I mean, for me at least, I laugh, I laugh a lot. things could be really, really funny.You could also go from crying to laughing, like in five seconds, , just like that. But I think that's beautiful too because that's how life can be. You know, things can be good. One minute and boom, things can change and you have to adjust and you have to [00:57:00] keep going and learn how to adapt with all those things.And for me, my, that's kind of what my work is about. You know, we're all adapting, we're all changing, but we can also use these substances as tools to change our worlds and help people like, help people with disabilities, help people who, you know, are born without certain privileges. A better place for them.De'Vannon: See the Lord is giving us everything we need right outside nature and how, how dare the white man tried to, to tell us something's wrong with these things that just grow naturally. Shrooms and weed and the, the fucking mold on the wheat that they make the fucking l s d out of and stuff like that. It's all line naturality.It's organic nun gmo, gmo, all of that. I'm sorry. You went through all those things. You went through being depressed during, during what's [00:58:00] so supposed to be such a happy time, but I'm glad you got your breakthrough. Yes. From those documentaries I watched, it seems like they were suggesting that these psychedelics have the power to rewrite like the, the neuro connectivity of the brain.So like, like you're saying, when you get, when you get sad and you get stuck in that ruck rut where you're teaching, where your mind learns how to be sad, and then these psyched dealers can remind your mind what it's like to be happy and rewire the way you process information and process life. So it can give you a whole new framework to work from. So,Ifetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: and I didn't really get into the types of psychedelics because I was watching like, I think on your YouTube channel of, I think it's in the intro video on there, you had this panel of people like y'all, y'all if Fatal, Ifta loves her panels, he loves a panel.Ifetayo: You'reDe'Vannon: It is good to have all those perspectives.But the [00:59:00] one you had, they were going over all the different psychedelics and I knew about the Melin and the, the celli and the ganja, you know, and all that. But then they started going down. He was like, But it's like, you know, designer, now you have all these different wands. And it's like, so I was like, Oh shit, I don'tIfetayo: Yeah.De'Vannon: but y'all go to the website to learn more about the different types of psyched dials. Listen to their, the information or YouTube channel she mentioned like dismantling the patriarchy. There's information and in other shows she's gone on, on her website that mentions. That, that you can access through the website that I would put in the show notes. Grief loss to death and harm reduction, things like that. You know, that you mentioned all of these are potential benefits for psychedelics when it's done right and in the right setting. I'm so happy that it's coming back around cuz all this Ritalin and shit, they got kids on calling them adhd, whatever the fuck that is.You know, all this medicine that they've had us hopped up [01:00:00] on, all it is is legal drugs. We should be able to have our shit, not just what they tell us is okay because they haven't so,So I'm gonna let you have the last word. Say whatever is you want to.Ifetayo: Oh man, you . I, I'll just say you've been an amazing host. I, I was not expecting this. You're awesome. You've like, I do a lot of podcasts, interviews and you've been the most fun. So IDe'Vannon: Well, damn. Thank you. Thank, I'll take, I'll take allIfetayo: Yes. Keep doing. You Don't change. And thank you to all your listeners. Check us out www.pocpc.org. Thank you for having me.De'Vannon: Absolutely. Thank you very much. Fat Tayo. Thank y'all so [01:01:00] much for listening and we'll see you next time on the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast and tell them don't listen to nobody but show self.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #75: A Historical + Modern View Of Marijuana, Legislating Morality & How Grassroots Organizations Impact Federal Policy, With Emily Dufton, Author, Podcast Host & Drug Historian

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2022 53:21


INTRODUCTION: Emily Dufton“An oracle ofknowledge on all things marijuana” - BostonHeraldI'm a drug historian and writer based near Washington,D.C. I received my BA from New York University and earned my Ph.D. in AmericanStudies from George Washington University. My first book, Grass Roots: The Rise and Fall and Rise of Marijuana inAmerica, traced over 50 years of cannabis activism and wasnamed one of “The8 Best Weed Books to Read Right Now” by RollingStone and one of “The Top 5Cannabis Books to Have In Your Personal Library” by 10buds.com.Since its publication,I've become a commentator on America's changing cannabisscene. I've appeared on CNN,the History Channel andNPR's BackStory with the American History Guys, and my writing has been featured on TIME, CNN,SmithsonianMagazine, and the WashingtonPost. I'm currentlyworking on my second book, Addiction,Inc.: Medication-Assisted Treatment and the War on Drugs (under contractwith the University of Chicago Press). It's the history of the development andcommercialization of the opioid addiction medication industry. In 2021 I won a LukasWork-in-Progress Award to help finance its writing. In 2022 I won a Robert B. SilversGrant. I'm deeply grateful for all the support.I'm also a podcasthost on the NewBooks Network, where I interview authors on new books about drugs,addiction and recovery. I live in the People's Republic of TakomaPark, Maryland, with my husband Dickson Mercerand our two children.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      A Look At The History Of Marijuana ·      Emily's Halloween Candy Advice·      De'Vannon's Experience With Hallucinogenics·      Great Grassroots Advice For Marijuana/Drug Activists ·      President Joe Biden's Major Moves For Marijuana·      The Inappropriate Relationship Between - Church + Media + Government·      Political Influences And Implications On Drugs·      The Balance Between Parents Rights And Kids Rights·      How Grassroots Organizations Impact Federal Policy·      Why We Shouldn't Assume Decriminalization Is Here To Stay  CONNECT WITH EMILY: Website: https://www.emilydufton.com/Grass Roots: https://www.emilydufton.com/grass-rootsLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3ganBPgFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/emily.duftonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/author_emily_dufton/Twitter: https://twitter.com/emily_duftonMedium: https://medium.com/@ebdufton   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Emily Dufton is an author, podcast host, and a drug historian who has blessed the world with a phenomenal book, which is entitled Grass Roots. The rise and fall and rise of marijuana in America. This book offers phenomenal advice for marijuana slash drug activists and encourages us to not arrest on our laurels, assuming that drug decriminalization is here to stay.Now, I fell in love with Ms. Emily when I discovered her while [00:01:00] listening to the, the. To The ReidOut podcast hosted by the great Joy-Ann Reid over on msnbc, and it was a surreal delight to sit down and talk with Emily about what's going on with drugs right now, as well as what was going on with drugs back then.Also, would like everyone to please check out our YouTube channel because for this very special episode, Emily and I have dawned our Halloween costumes. She's a hot dog, and I'm Fred Flintstone, and you have got to check them out. Have a super safe Halloween everyone.Hello and happy Halloween everyone, and welcome to this very special edition of The Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I wish you all a very, very spooky weekend. I have with me the great. Multi talented, multifaceted, delicious, and nutritious. Emily din, How are you, girl? Emily: Oh my God, I'm feeling delicious and nutritious.Thank [00:02:00] you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm De'Vannon: so fucking lely. Like you look delicious and nutritious. So you're dressed as a hot dog. I am. So I'm curious and you told me, Previously that you're a hot dog every year, and so I've been wondering, so some years, are you like a vegan hot dog another year?You're like a Polish sausage. You switch up the bond, like how exactly does it go? Emily: Oh, the hot dog is in the eye of the beholder. I, that's how it is. I think, you know, I live in Tacoma Park, Maryland. It's known as the Berkeley of the East. I think many people see me as a tofu dog, as a beyond beyond.Hot dog. Others as DC adjacent, you know, were like, I could be a half smoke. I could be, I'm just I just wear this because it's a costume I found on the side of the street in Capitol Hill in DC where I was living at the time, and I thought, [00:03:00] This is amazing. Someone is just giving away a hot dog costume.I'm going to give it a home and I'm going to be a hot dog every year from now until it literally falls apart. And so that's why I'm a hot dog every year. De'Vannon: looks brand new. I love it. Emily: Thank you. It gets washed from time to time. De'Vannon: from time. Good time. Look, I love me a good wier girl. So , Emily: I could be, I could be the wier of your dreams.Who knows? Let's see. We can put the, the top up for a minute. See you. De'Vannon: It's great. That is one. Okay. All right. There y'all. So . So Emily is an author and a drug historian. She holds a PhD in American Studies from George Washington University. She is the author of a fabulous book called Grassroots, the Rise and Fall and Rise of Marijuana in America.Has to do with how, how, how, how, [00:04:00] how earnest hippies, frightened parents suffering patients and other ordinary Americans went to war over the marijuana. It was a little mm-hmm. description I had of that. Before we go much further, I wanna take a moment to give a shout out to Ms. Joy and re over at the readout on msnbc, because that is how I discovered.Oh wow. . I saw you on her podcast and then I heard what you had to say about your grassroots book, and then I fell in love with you and when I built up the courage and got, got, got more bodies of works under my belt, I sent you a message, you know, hoping and praying that you would respond and you did.And so, Emily: Paul touch my heart. I'm so happy to be here. And honestly, like I The idea that, that, oh, you would be at all nervous to talk to me, makes me just like ache a little bit on the inside. I'm so happy to talk to you and this is such an honor for me to [00:05:00] be here. We are. You wrote a book, We Are equals, We know, We know what it is to go into the, the pain cave of writing and, and try to create something intelligible and lengthy about complicated subjects.You know, so writer to writer, you and I are, we are. Eye to eye. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. De'Vannon: The sausage and so, So I'm like a glittery version of Fred Flinstone because, As far as I'm concerned, we all know what Fred Freestone and Barney Rubble were really doing over in Bed Rock, Honey and Emily: Rock. I mean, come on.Yeah, it was right inDe'Vannon: Barney Rubs a total bottom. I know. It . So, So in your own words, I've given like my take on, is there anything you'd like to say about yourself, your own personal history or anything? Emily: Gosh. [00:06:00] Like, like about writing grassroots or about like what? Like about me as a human being. De'Vannon: Anything about you at all.Your favorite color, Favorite place you've traveled. We're gonna get into grassroots right after you. Tell us whatever you'd like to say. Just about yourself. Oh my at all since I've already given a little history, so you don't have to Oh, Emily: lovely. I'm a Piy, Sun Sagittarius, Rising Pisces Moon. I have two children a boy who's six and a little girl who's almost three.I'm working on my second book right now, which is about the history of medication assisted treatment for opioid use disorder, and I won a couple grants to fund the work, and it's been super awesome. And hopefully I'm gonna go to Switzerland either at the end of this year or the beginning of next year to compare addiction treatment programs over there with America's treatments.So those are, I think by far the most pertinent facts about me that everyone should, [00:07:00] should know. .De'Vannon: I think those are pretty damn good and relevant facts. the, the, the resurgence of healing with the drugs. Look, I just got back from Portland, Oregon dealing shrooms. And sell. So that is a cell aside, but, and what the fuck else I did?Mdm a I had never been shrooms before in my life and since I'm a veteran who suffers from ptsd, O C D and you know, all of these things and I saw on Netflix and the How to Change Your Mind documentary on PBS history of Mil illness. Documentary, how they've been using these hallucinogenics to help veterans.And I thought, Okay, I'm not gonna wait for this to be approved. I'm gonna fly my happy ass up here and do these shrooms. Man, it took seven grams for me to like fill anything. And apparently that's like a lot. And wow. I don't know, apparently besides the Emily: social work. Oh, that context. Yeah. So you did like an official, like, like clinical trial?It De'Vannon: wasn't a trial I paid for this. I [00:08:00] found a social worker who was willing to to do it in a psychiatric setting. Uhhuh, he feel like his woods are like an hour north of Portland into his cabin in the woods. So that, cuz he was like insistent that the environment be like, Right. And so it was like a guided assistant thing.It was, it was clinical, but I paid for it. I wasn't, I didn't wait for a trial Emily: to come. Totally, totally understood. That's awesome. How was it? Was it a good experience?De'Vannon: It follows me, so in a good way. So like if I smoke weed, it does not have an effect on me. I've tried different strands, different states, different times.I used to sell the hell out of it back in my drug dealing days, but I never fool with it too much. I used to sell shrooms. I never did 'em either. But I have discovered that if I do like a CBD gummy, I will be sitting around looking like EE from South Park. I feel that. But, so the, the C B D [00:09:00] does the same thing that the MDM A and the shrooms did.It quiet hit my mind. So I was expecting to have one of those like, really jerky experiences like I saw in the documentary, but that did not happen for me at all because my mind is always like this with the OCD and the PTSD and everything. Mm-hmm. . So for me, what those, what those hallucinogenics did was it just neutralized.And so I was just like, still just silent, quiet. And so I have found things that I used to, that I used to have anxiety over. I don't anymore. And so basically that peace, it, it attached itself to me in those, in that state of mind. Emily: I love that. So, so quieted your minds downed. How long did the quietness.De'Vannon: It's ongoing. So I was, while the drugs had their effect on me, okay, on this room, you know, the trees started to like move and the prints, you know, the pattern in the carpet started [00:10:00] dancing and doing his own thing and whatnot. So that was kind of freaky. But once that all settled down, , you know, you know, So it's not like it was, I, I have found, this has been like maybe three weeks ago that I was in Portland.It hasn't changed. You know, I still feel peace. It's like, and I experienced the same thing when I started experiment, the CBD gummies, which has only been like maybe two or three months ago. Mm-hmm. That I discovered that these gummies will have an impact on me. That's interesting. It's like, it's, it's a permanent thing with me.Emily: Wow. And have you had any kind of I don't know, like sessions or counseling or anything to kind of talk about like, But you know, sort of digesting the effects of it or like, maybe I don't even, I don't even know what the word is, but have, have you communicated at all with the guy who led the session since he, De'Vannon: He was, he is open to that and he wanted to schedule a follow up, but [00:11:00] I, and I can reach out to him if I want to, Emily, but I, I was ready, you know, like writing my blog and my books in the show and I see a, a social worker every week anyway.I see a licensed family marriage, the. A couple of times a month for me and my boyfriend, and then I see a hypno therapist once a month. And so I'm always professing and manifesting the change that I want. I went into it already. I didn't really embody to do too much handholding, and I'm all like, I'm ready to let this shit go.Like we talk about it, but it's already done . Emily: That's great. And this is the thing that allowed you to do that. Like you're just like, I just need that final push to get it out. Right. I love that there's a guy. Oh yeah. Sorry. Keep going. De'Vannon: You go, You're the guest girl. Oh, Emily: no. I'm just saying there's someone so I live right outside of DC in Tacoma Park, Maryland, and which I think I've said already but.There's this doctor who just moved here and [00:12:00] started a practice where he's doing exactly that. He's using Ketamine though. And so he's doing these like lead ketamine therapy sessions. And then afterwards he offers sessions to, I'm trying to remember like the verb he used. It wasn't like aggregate, but it was like to sort of like digest the experience.So you have this experience with ketamine that will hopefully release in the patient, the same kind of things that released in your experience. And then he would kind of provide the counseling or the, the therapy sessions to help sort of bring, make, make manifest the effects. And I thought, Oh my God, like, here it is.It's, it's, it's here. You know, like sort of this pro, this ability to access these drugs in a therapeutic. You know, private, like obviously like , you know, industrial way, but it's here. And God, that is like 10 years ago. I think experiences like yours are like the one that this doctor is offering would've been like [00:13:00] unimaginable.And yet now they're here and they're moving into all these communities. You know, it's not just Portland, Oregon, it's like here in, right outside of DC it's everywhere. And that to me is a totally fascinating aspect of like drug policy in the United States. It's wild. Totally. De'Vannon: I'm so happy to have it here too.But as you warn in your book grassroots that we're about to get into you know, these things tend to come and. At times. Yeah. Because this wasn't the first time that we were on the border of finding therapeutic uses for drugs before the drug war on drugs. Shut it down. Right. And so we're happy to have it back.And towards the end of the interview, I was most intrigued with the, the six lessons that you have for grassroots advocate for people at the end. And so I really gotta let you give that advice because I really feel like people need to hear that because people. Are feeling really grass rooty these days.It'll be . Emily: That's true. ,De'Vannon: it would be great for them to to to hear, hear [00:14:00] your advice so that they can be helped. Emily: I had to go get my copy. I haven't looked at that in a while. That's right. I forgot. I had like six little lessons in the back. Yeah. The one I remember, the Yes. Make your argument as sympathetic as possible was lesson one.Mm-hmm. . Because the more you center like a really sympathetic identity in the middle of your campaign, the more likely people are to. Feel bad for you and generate empathic warmth and support, right? Which is why you always see like puppies, like with their ribs exposed cuz they're starving in the rain, chained to a box and you're like, Please take my money to save the puppy.Lesson two. It's all about the money, which is exactly what we were talking about. Money buys influence. Lesson three, Be prepared to watch your progress disappear. Lesson four, don't rely too heavily on the White House. Lesson five, Respect your opposition and lesson six, keep a sense of perspective.Wow. I forgot I wrote these. That's so interesting. Yeah, [00:15:00] like, you know what's, Sorry, De'Vannon: keep going. No saying. So. We'll talk about those towards the end, cuz I thought those would be cute. Okay. So you can just kind of like, you know, peruse over that while we're going through. And and then of course people go by the books.So if you're a grassroots person and you wanna figure out. How to escape some pitfalls and things like that. I think this is a really good book and if you wanna have insight cause we're all also passionate about this, you know, this resurgence and everything. But I think that your book, you know, is like so evergreen, you know, in the, in the sense that, you know, it's an ongoing battle in this country because as you say, it's the rise, the fall, the rise, you know, it goes back and forth.There's no reason for us to be so arrogant as to assume that it can't fall again, because as you lay out in the book, every time we have. Arise for decriminalization. There's an opposing force that wants to fight that. Right. And so, and it was no different then. It's the same way now. So you wanted to give a warning though, for Halloween candy.I [00:16:00] wanted to be sure that we have time for that, because that was something you specifically requested. And so tell us your, this is, this is Emily's warning about this Halloween came to y'all. Oh Emily: my God. It's less of warning and just more of like a. I, I just every year, Well, this year in particular, I feel like there have been a lot of news stories about the rainbow colored fentanyl that apparently is going to show up in children's Halloween staes nationwide.And I love it because like, it just goes to show how. Drugs. The concept of drugs, right? When we talk about drugs, we're never just talking about drugs, right? We're always talking about larger issues and larger questions and larger ideas. And I feel like this, like the new fear of 2022, Halloween, 2022 of Fentanyl being dispersed widely in like Halloween candy is just, it's a really convenient vehicle for like political mud slinging, right?And. [00:17:00] You know, so the right can mud sling at the left by saying, Oh, it's the liberal's open border policies that is allowing Mexican cartels to funnel this rainbow colored fentanyl across the borders. And now it's gonna, now my kid's gonna eat it thinking it's a sweet tart and die. So that's how, like the right is mudslinging the left and then the left mud slings the right in return by saying, right.You're so stupid. No drug dealer is going to give away drugs for free. That is not how drug dealing works. . So there's just this and like, you know, so whenever we're talking about drugs, we're always talking about so much more than just drugs. Like there, like the concept of drugs is weighted with all of these other topics that we like, press upon it.And it becomes something that's like, kind of like a football, right? It's just always being thrown back and forth, you know? People are always going to use the concept of drugs or the concept of punishment or the concept of treatment as a political vehicle to achieve [00:18:00] other ends, right? Whether those are financial or moral or law enforcement, whatever.But I just feel like the Halloween candy saga that we go through every year is like kind of a good sort of visual entry point on to this topic that like, Drugs are always much more than just drugs, right? There are ways for us to discuss as Americans and as human beings, concepts that are obviously like much more complicated and oftentimes more complex than just like fentanyl or pot or whatever else itself.So I guess that's like my opening concept for conversation . De'Vannon: Yes, as a former drug dealer, I can attest to what Mr. Mrs. Dustin is saying is true. We don't to run around giving away drugs for free honey, especially not to little children who don't have money to come back and buy any once they get addicted.That's . Emily: It's, it is a profoundly bad marketing plan. No one [00:19:00] benefits from it. No one benefits . De'Vannon: But you know, just like, you know, as you state in your book You know, the fear mongering, you know, the fear mongering is like a big deal coming from the left. And so, I mean, coming from the right and so Emily: and sometimes the De'Vannon: left , it can, it can, mm-hmm.it pains me to say, but it's just so true. You know, Emily: sometimes we have to be honest about our own, you know, . De'Vannon: You know what? I don't, I don't, I don't want, I don't want a political party. I just wanna be like me. I just wanna be like me. I know. Whatever makes free to be you and me. What do you think about what Biden did though with the rolling back the the, the, the legal, the, the cases against people with the marijuana charges?Emily: I mean, it was really interesting, right? It was kind of came out in nowhere, right? He hadn't talked [00:20:00] much about. Marijuana policy at all on the campaign trail or during these first two years? I remember Kamala Harris during the Vice presidential debate was the very first presidential or vice presidential candidate to ever say during a debate, like, Yes, I support decriminalization.And she said that. So Kamala mentioned it, but like Biden never did. So he comes out and he makes this announcement and. Like it's immediate effect is going to be relatively small because the only marijuana convictions he's allowed to overturn are ones that he can control and he can only control federal convictions for possession.And that's not the, like that many it's about 6,500 nationally and it's, I don't know the number. No one would gave it. No one would give it. But it's also convictions for possession in DC because DC is federal. So that actually, that number might be more considerable than 6,500, but like I have not seen [00:21:00] a news outlet give it yet.But anyway, like that's pretty small compared to the millions of people who have been arrested. It's kind of a drop in the bucket. But what he also said was he was going to talk to eight, the Department of Health and HHS Health and Human. Services. He's going to talk to the FDA and he is going to talk to the DEA for the three federal agencies in charge of drug policy and talk about, and he wanted to talk about descheduling cannabis.So right now, pot is a schedule one drug and it's been a Schedule one drug since 1970. And, Being schedule one, that means that the federal government considers it to have no medical utility and a high risk for abuse, which is of course very silly. Since 1996, it became medical marijuana. So of course it has some medical utilities.Schedule one placement has been kind of nuts for at least since 1996. [00:22:00] He wants to talk about descheduling it, taking it outta the schedules completely. And if you deschedule a. That means it can become a legitimate legal marketplace item like cigarettes or alcohol. It could become a commercial product, and that is a really big decision.It's already kind of becoming a commercial product, but those industries are like very cottage still. Like there is a huge medical marijuana industry and there is a growing recreational cannabis industry, but there's still like, In the span of things, right, Like along the spectrum of, of products, it's still fairly small.So to deschedule it completely and turn it into a commercial product that would transform the cannabis industry in the United States and ultimately worldwide. So it's a huge decision. It's a huge, it's this, this the beginning of a huge conversation. So like right [00:23:00] after he made that announcement it was right before last weekend.People were like, I didn't really know what to make of it, honestly. But the more I've read, like things on Twitter from people I respect and some articles, the more I realize he's launching like a pretty huge conversation. And now would be the time for activists who are interested in creating, as, you know, equitable and kind.Fundamentally good natured and industry as possible, like now would be the time for them to really get involved because, you know, conversations about, about descheduling are happening and those are, those are important. And you know, the time to influence the marketplaces now cuz it's starting to take shape, which is crazy.I mean, it's like the same thing we were talking about before where like now you can go someplace and have like ketamine treatment, like these things are available. So it's time to figure out what, like we actually want the industry to look. De'Vannon: [00:24:00] Hell yeah. Something to tap into that energy and push it forward.I feel you on that. So, so, so in your book, you, you take us from like prohibition back in the first part of the last century, you know, all the way up to the day and I thought it was very artfully done. So I wanted to read a little excerpt about about the way. Marijuana was viewed back then from way back in 1917 from, from your book, if I may.And so those said, the 1917 report from the Treasury Department noted that in Texas only Mexicans and sometimes Negroes and lower class whites smoked the marijuana for pleasure and warned that that drug crazed minorities could harm or assault upper class white women. I felt like this, you know, that sort of thinking still informs policy today and I felt like when movies like The Terrible [00:25:00]Truth and Reefer Madness, which you mentioned, the book came out, I felt like that was like media's way of locking arms with the government and echoing what they're saying.And you don't really get into too religion deeply. But I feel like the church also. Touched and agreed. Yes. Emily: So, so the church was responsible for paying for the production of the movie Reef for Madness. I don't which church it, it was, I don't remember, but it was funded by Evangelical Christians. There you go.There's your connection. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: And see, I don't know, like, I, I hate the fact that the church. I would've rather the church stand up and say, You know what? It's not for the government to enforce morality because God is not forced. He's always gave the children of Israel a choice. He never came down here and mandated things in the way that we're trying to mandate them.So why don't we back off and leave this whole morality [00:26:00] thing to the church instead? The church was like, Well, we like to control people. The government likes to control people, so why don't we see if we can control them all together? Hmm. So I Emily: collaborate. Oh my God, it's so true. And it's been so powerful, like for so long, for so long.But it's true, like can you legislate morality? I mean, like, that's just this eternal question and you know, you really, you really can't, you can't punish someone until they're good. It just doesn't work that way. You. De'Vannon: No, nobody responds to that. You know, our children don't. And I love that your kids are like, pretty much the same age as my two kids, which happen to be like Maine Coon mixed cats.You know, My oldest boys about is about to be six in March, and then my girl is threeOh, Emily: we have babies the same age. That's so funny. That's crazy. Wild. But it's true, like you can't make them be good through [00:27:00] fear or punishment like ever. Ever and . And then it just always makes things worse. It always makes things worse. And that's why like, I mean, that's why it's so hard oftentimes to have like rational discussions about things like drugs or religion because like people just get too emotionally involved and you kind of think like, you're gonna, you're gonna believe my way or I'm going to hurt you.Like I'm going to defend this to the point of violence. And it's just like, that's why I , some people get mad at me. Grassroots because they felt like I didn't take a firm enough stand, you know, either way. And some people also like seem to have a really hard, a hard, they seem to have some difficulty with differentiating between smoking pot and writing about pot as like a historical phenomenon.So like a lot of people just like make these really dumb jokes, like yeah, I bet you're using a lot. Grass when you're writing grassroots or whatever. And I was like, No. I was writing like a [00:28:00] deeply researched, like historical book based off of my PhD dissertation. Like, no, I wasn't high the whole time. Like, that's ridiculous.But people were upset with me because I wasn't taking firm enough stand. Like I wasn't coming out like very strongly as an activist for legalization or, or alternatively against it. I didn't make my, my political position clear enough. And I don't know if. Like in the same way you're saying like, Well who should legislate morality?You know, in the same way, I don't feel like history books necessarily have to be legislating morality, right? Like I don't feel like I needed to tell people what to believe. I just wanted to tell them what happened and how we got here. So that as things move forward and as we continue to watch this really like unique historical period evolve, we'll be more prepared to understand.The potential downsides that might occur or the potential benefits that might occur, and like try to maybe guide the process [00:29:00] more toward the benefits, like rather than the downsides. So it's, you know, I do feel like there's a real need to understand drugs in like a non-emotional, non hot take, non, like just understanding them as like a historical artifact where.Certain things have happened from 1917 to today to create the world we live in, and we should probably understand how we got here. And so I wrote a book about it, , and now we're talking about it. All right, , De'Vannon: just bring it full circle. I love it. And you're right, your book is very energetically neutral. It is very energetically like neutral.Yeah, I did pick up on that. And you know, most of you know historians, they just tell what happened and so I, you know, I was interviewing somebody else and I was, and he had gotten some reviews that kind of roughed his feathers and I was telling him, You know what, I'll tell you the same thing. Like Amazon and all these different book places don't.Perform mental health test [00:30:00] on people who go in there and leave reviews . So there's no tell on what you're gonna get, so Emily: please gimme the most recent report from your therapist before you post on this review. . Oh my God. The best review I got was someone was really mad that I was mean to Nancy Reagan, and they were like, it's not like she committed tax fraud.Nancy Reagan's not that bad. And I was like, Is that your bar? Like tax fraud? Or? So that was everyone else's reviews on Amazon are almost all from my friends, so those are all nice that Perfect. They're all the friends. I ask like, Please leave an Amazon review for my book. Thank you. De'Vannon: Hey, nothing like that inner circle chosen family, baby.Oh baby. That person commented on the tax fraud, though, probably commits tax fraud and they were projecting that. Oh my Emily: god. 100%. De'Vannon: Yeah. . So I wanted to talk about Atlanta 1976 because. [00:31:00] I felt like Miss, Miss Marsha Sard, and I have to admit when I read that name immediately, Andrew DeMar Shinard from Rent from the MusicalOh my God. It came to my mind and I had to go look it up. I was like, Is there a relation here today, tomorrow for me? What's going on ? So, but there is no relation. So it's, it's Emily: inside a gay boy. No, I can't unsee it. I can't unsee it. De'Vannon: and Atlanta especially. Cause my boyfriend is from Atlanta, you know, from that area.And so Hills, well todo neighborhood. Marsha is you know, she's walks into like her teens having this party and everyone's. you know, paring it up. Her and her husband go out fine, like the weed butts and everything like that. And, and then she goes run snitch to all the other parents because of course there was other teenage there.And we all know [00:32:00] snitches get stitches, y'all. And so what I documented was the parents' reactions usually that the parents' reactions ran the gamut from shock, confusion, indignation, concern, denial, and hostility. Now in the book, you, you know, this woman is like, Slated to be a Democrat. Mm-hmm. . And so that really, really shocked me.And and her, her emotions. I don't feel like those emotions have changed over the years. I feel like that's the same way people react to Dave. Would you agree? Emily: Yeah, I think, I think you're onto something there. Yeah. Like it, it was her, her politics are really interesting. So Keith, she goes by Keith, which again is kind of.You have to get, wrap your head around this woman, this like mom of three who goes by Keith. And then it's hard cuz I'm also writing about Keith Strop, the founder of Normal, the National Organization for the reform of marijuana laws, which are like, you know, going gangbusters at this time. [00:33:00]So there's a lot of Keith's, you know, so keep the Keiths straight in your mind.But so Keith Shart is this mom She has a PhD in British literature. She's not teaching, but her husband is at Emory, and so she's like home with these kids. So like I see her as being really smart. probably pretty bored, right? Being home with kids, like when you have a PhD and you're clearly like a life of the mind kind of person.Being home with little kids can be like really boring and you can have like maybe a lot of leftover energy. And so she throws this like backyard birthday party for her 13 year old daughter. And like the kids are acting weird and she's kind of freaking out and she sees like they're up in their bedroom, like looking out in the backyard, her and her husband and they see the lighters flicker in the bushes, but they assume it's cigarettes.But the kids are like really acting funny. And so once everybody leaves, they go into the backyard and they're searching around and they [00:34:00] find. Roaches. And they also find like, like alcohol containers, right? So the kids aren't just smoke smoking pot, they're, they're drinking too. , The scandal, the scandal 13, I mean 13 is young.Like for, like, I was not, I was not playing those games at 13, but I understand that my experience is not the experience of everyone. And, and now I'm like, as a mom, I'm kind of like, Oh, if I caught Henry doing that, like I'd be probably be pretty pissed. But but anyway, so she. She goes into like hardcore activist mode, like right away, you know, she was like, Boom.And she is buoyed by the concepts of. Second wave feminism that are like really prominent at the time where you do consciousness raising groups and you get together with people who are sharing your same experience and you talk about it, right? Because the personal is political and you try to figure out a way to change society for the better.Like that is very much like the kind of social [00:35:00] milu that shoe hard is coming from in, in 76 in Atlanta. Because remember, like Atlanta's pretty liberal at this time. Like Jimmy Carter is governor and he is running for president. You know, like it's the bicentennial. Everybody's like super patriotic, right?It's an interesting time. So she gets together with all the other parents and she's like, Our kids are smoking pot. This seems to be an issue like this. This. This is, this is something we should probably pay attention to. And she kind of blames it on the fact that for the past three years, more and more states had steadily been decriminalizing marijuana possession.So it started in Oregon in 73, but by 76, I think there were probably like,Probably like six, five or six states by that point that had decriminalized, right? Georgia wasn't one of them, but others did. And so there's this burgeoning drug paraphernalia industry, like basically just like today, this was happening in the mid, the early [00:36:00] 1970s where like. A semi-legal cannabis marketplace was taking shape in America.And when a marketplace builds and expands, more people tend to utilize it. So more people were using pot, more people were smoking pot, and then it was trickling down and it was getting to kids. So like Keith Shoe hard's, daughter 13 found some pot and was smoking it at her birthday party. And like that made shard really upset.So even though she was a Democrat and she was a liberal, She was really opposed to what the liberal agenda had pushed, which was decriminalization. So she starts basically a nationwide grassroots army of parents to overturn decriminalization laws and kind of stop the burgeoning paraphernalia industry.And it just so happens that in 1984 years later, when Ronald Reagan gets elected, he takes their concept. Nationalizes [00:37:00] it further and then turns it into federal policy. So it was the parent movement that gave us basically the entire concept of just say no. So yeah, the 1980s were birthed in the 1970s in Atlanta, Georgia in 1976.De'Vannon: Right. And right. Thank you for breaking that down so beautifully. And I, and I felt like from, from the way that you wrote, you really, really wanted people to know the importance that small community groups like this actually, the impact that they have on federal policy, not as, so that we don't undervalue this or underestimate.Totally. Emily: And so it's amazing. Well, when you tap into a zeitgeist like that, like, like what, what Shoe hard and other people in Atlanta tapped into was something that And ended up people were feeling nationwide. And that's the exact same thing that was happening with medical marijuana laws. And it's the exact same thing that's happening with legalization laws now.I mean, people are tapping into like it's a zeitgeist straight now. You know? Like more like I think Maryland, where I live is, I think we're [00:38:00] voting to legalize this. I think we're voting to legalize next month. Like it's movement, baby. It's movement. De'Vannon: May the force be with you? May Emily: the force be, I think it'll pass pretty easily.I think it'll pass pretty easily. Now it's just a matter of what the market will look like, what we'll actually do with it in the. Which is crazy. It's a De'Vannon: step. The thing that stood out to me about Mrs. Manas, was she, she, she kept saying like, it was like, for the children, you, the children, half of the children, you know, I'm getting like flashbacks to one division, you know, for Disney when they're, you know, her and vision, you know, Wanda Envision, you know, wanting to max him off.Yeah. Marvel, you know, I'm like, geeking out right now. But , they kept saying that thing for the children and there weren't any fucking children. Because she had, she had put 'em all to sleep, but she, I, I was like, Okay, I wonder if she asked the children what they want or was she just using them to enforce her agenda every time?I see like a [00:39:00] politician, especially like, I mean, you know, especially like the Republican and stuff like that, wanting to enact negative policies on behalf of veterans. For instance, me being a military veteran, I always, I'm like, I don't want you to do that. Like everything you're doing, I don't want you to do.You didn't ask me . So, but they're like, Our veterans wouldn't want my choice. Yeah. no. And so, I don't know. That stood out to me like right, like the children, but they don't. I don't know what to call that. What do you call that when people do that? Are they, are they calling themselves doing it in the name of righteousness?Are they getting, Now you're a parent now, so you have this feeling. Would you go and do something this adverse on behalf of your children without consulting their opinion FirstAnd I don't understand Emily: that they prefer that. Right. They would love to, they'd love to gimme their opinions. Right. But you know, I. I think you're to a really important question, right? Which is like, [00:40:00] where do the rights of children end and the rights of adults begin, right? So like when, when Keith, Shar, and every and everybody else in the parent movement is saying, Oh my God.We have to repeal decriminalization laws because of the children. Like do it for the children. The children are being harmed by these drugs. But then that transforms from like, we have to have these laws for the children to, We have to excessively punish. Adults for drug possession or dealing or whatever else excessively punish them.Like especially after the 1986 Drug Abuse Act, right? When you're getting mandatory minimums of 5, 10, 15 years when we're locking up millions of people for drug possession. Like where does the rights of children end And like the range of adults in and the pushback to that. But what about the children line of thought did finally start to come in the nineties, right?[00:41:00] When marijuana legalization efforts dovetailed with the gay rights movement in what I think is just one of the most fascinating, like historical co ever, right? So in California, in San Francisco, as AIDS is starting to. Decimate the gay population. You have a couple of activists, including Dennis Perran and Brownie Mary Rath Fund, whose real name is Mary Jane, which is crazy.They're using marijuana to like give to these aids patients who, like doctors don't wanna touch, nobody wants to get near them. No one knows what to do. No one knows how to treat hiv. It's brand new. Right? And Brownie Mary and Dennis Perran are. Have a, have a pot and infuse brownie, like you're gonna get your appetite back, Your nausea is gonna chill out.You're gonna feel pretty good. You're gonna have some energy. You can like go to the [00:42:00] bank. You can do like an errand right before you die. A horribly of aids like my God. Right? So they're saying, where did the rights of children end? Yes. We kept children so safe from pot that like by the early eighties, like no one is smoking pot anymore and we're locking.Tens of thousands of people, right? Like every month, right? Okay, great. We've done it. We won the drug war. But now it turns out this substance does have some medical utility for a patient group that is increasingly becoming like really sympathetic. You know, like cuz you have, I mean Arthur Ash contracts, hiv God, that little boy got it through like a blood transfusion or something.So you start to like have like really sympathetic feelings towards, Oh, Princess Diana visits the HIV clinic in the San Francisco General Hospital. Right? Like suddenly it becomes really sympathetic and laws start to change, right? Suddenly adults rights, especially like adults dying of AIDS and cancer, like their rights become much more important than protecting children from pot.And then, [00:43:00] Can kind of move like fast forward into the two thousands. 2010, the legalization movement joins with the social justice movement. So in 2010, Michelle Alexander publishes her book The New Jim Crow, Mass Incarceration in the Age of Color Blindness, which is canonical at this point. Canonical, I tell you, and like it is all.The effects of locking up nonviolent offenders, the vast majority of which are black men. Like, well, what have we done in America By locking up millions of people, more people, more black people are incarcerated in the United States than in South Africa at the height of apartheid. Like what effects does that have culturally, socially, economically?It has effects. And she lays them out and we're all like, Oh my God. Now we know. And laws started to change right after that, right? In 2012, you have the first states legalized Colorado and Washington by combining legalization [00:44:00] with calls for social justice, right? If cannabis is the source of massive amounts of black incarceration, legalized cannabis, right?That's one way to like act on social justice, and it was also legalized through. Outright calls for generating tax revenue, right? Like here is something that we can legalize and tax the be Jesus out of. And not only are we like doing good on social justice initiatives, but we're also gonna make a boatload of money.Like it's a total win-win at the moment. And that's basically, again, arguments for the rights of adults, right? Should we, should we incarcerate X number of million of people, millions of people for cannabis possession? So again, like. Argument for its children's rights, which was like so immensely powerful in the 1970s and eighties has now I would say, really been pushed to the back burner by almost three decades of really concerted and very powerful and very influential activism for adults rights to access cannabis, [00:45:00] for medical, and then social justice and economic initiatives.De'Vannon: And that's the tea. Y'all, Y'all have it? Emily . Emily: There's, there's 50 years of cannabis history guys. Woo. . De'Vannon: And, you know, I work with you know, so many people right now, and I, and I, I love how you, I feel like your book is almost like a, a user's manual for people who wanna get into this fight. You know, you're giving historical context, you're giving advice and everything.And so You know, I'm thinking about, you know, a friend of mine if her name is iFit Harvey, she runs the people of Color Collective. People of color, Psychedelic Collective, which is based out of New York City. And you know, and I, and I work with them, you know, I just did an interview, you know, for, I gave them an interview the other day and we were talking about like you know, marijuana, you know, the way it's, you know, criminalized here in Louisiana where I live versus where one of their.[00:46:00]Satellite locations is in Oregon, in Portland. And so, you know, things like this are very helpful you know, for young people cuz these people are really, really like young who have started this, you know, psychedelic collective and everything like that. And so I think, yeah. Right. I think books like this are so like, useful.So we're nearing the end of our hour and so I just wanted to mention. You mentioned normal earlier. I wanna tell people that stands for the I think you said, at the National Organization for the Reform rather than repe of marijuana laws. And then we'll go right into talking about like your your lessons and things like that.And, and we may just pick like one or two that that's important to you. But and so another little, a final ex sweep from the book. I'm channeling my inner Bugs Bunny, so an ex. From the book, it says normal, you know, or ML argue that marijuana smokers or consumers not deviance and deserve the same rights to protection and [00:47:00] safety as any other group.Including access to the drug without pollutants or contaminants. A competitive marketplace free from monopolies and conglomerates, and especially freedom from harassment by the poll lease. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. felt like a, a Southern Sunday. GodEmily: I love it. I want you to record the audio book. That's great. I love it. . De'Vannon: Oh, I'll do it. I love getting on this microphone right here and do it. I did my own audio book. Oh, that's awesome. And so I wanted to bring that up because like you had normal fighting for it. You had Miss, Miss Minnaar fighting against it back then.Like you say in the book, we have the same thing now because I don't want people to wrestling their laurels and get so comfortable thinking that it's a home run. It's a clean slate. You know? We must stay vigilant. Emily: Mm. Yes, totally. I think that's, I mean, it, it does [00:48:00] feel like to me, I feel like. Pot becomes the scariest drug around when there's no other boogie in.So in like the 1970s, early 1970s when the first decriminalization laws were being passed, we're also kind of going through a heroin epidemic, right? And right now we've been going through the opioid epidemic for like, whoa, 30 years or so, . But it's kind of coming to its natural. At the same time that the legal cannabis marketplace is really starting to heat up and when opioids become like, when there's no like, like meth was a boogieman for a while.Crack was a boogieman for a while, but opioids have been a bo the boogieman for like 30 years. And if that starts to tamp down, if we start to feel less scared about that and there's like sort of like a void in like the drug boogieman cuz you know, we always need a drug boogieman. We're America, we need a drug boogieman and.Pot. Well sometimes I think come back and fill that [00:49:00] role. Like there, there could be widespread rejection of the legal marketplace. I mean, in certain places, right? Like in Massachusetts that legalized. However long ago, some communities don't want it, and they are allowed to say within that state's jurisdiction.We do not want any cannabis marketplaces within our community borders. So there's gonna be some nimbyism and there's going to be some nimbyism like, yes, in my backyard to it. But again, it's, you don't know what's like, we don't know what's going to happen. This is a brand new marketplace that could bust its boots like.I mean, it's been around for a decade now, which is amazing. But things are gonna get big fast and if people don't like it, it could very well turn, turn back around. I mean, that's not impossible. It's not, it's improbable, but not impossible. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: So what I'll do in the interest of time, I'll just read the title of each of the six letter , then people can go and buy the book to get the advice that you have in there.Do it. I think that and after I [00:50:00] read the titles, and I'll let you have our last word. . Which is a, which is another a page I borrowed from the book of Joy read because she she always gives her guests, you know, like the last word and everything like that. And so I thought you a good idea. I'm very inspired by that woman, and so, oh, I love it.So, lesson one, make your argument as sympathetic as possible. The lesson two, it's all about the money. lesson three. Be prepared to watch your progress disappear. That's the most shocking one for me and in my inten, in my opinion, the most sobering, less than four. Don't rely too heavily on the White House, and she means over multiple administrations.And then less than five, respect your opposition, less than six. Keep a sense of perspective, which is also a statement of humility. So her website is emily din.com, Social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, India, [00:51:00] Instagram, medium. Oh podcast. You can listen to Emily conduct interviews, new books.Networks has a Drugs Addiction and Recovery podcast. This book is grass Roots. And then she already mentioned the other one she has coming out. So with that, I'm gonna shut my cock up. And any last , anything that you would like to say and just take it away, darling. Emily: Oh, My gratitude is to you for, for having me, but also for bringing your message and your love, and your light and your spirit to the people.I am grateful to you and for all the work you do. So thank you very much. De'Vannon: All right. Thanks everybody for tuning in. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Emily: Don't eat Fentanyl Candy .De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you [00:52:00] can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be right.