Podcasts about robert no

What if you could replace your corporate salary with millions in e-commerce sales? This inspiring episode brings together Robert Gomez, a former senior finance manager at Microsoft turned successful e-commerce entrepreneur, and Kseniia Reidel, an aspiring Amazon e-commerce star. Robert reveals his transformative journey from the corporate world to achieving over $10 million in sales on Amazon and Walmart brand called Kaffe. Kseniia, on the verge of hitting her first seven-figure mark using Project X methods, shares her innovative strategies and experiences in scaling up an Amazon business. From facing the challenge of declining sales due to over-dependence on a single product to launching new product lines in Walmart, Robert and Kseniia provide invaluable insights into the world of e-commerce adaptability. They discuss the critical importance of diversifying product offerings and successfully managing logistics during peak seasons. The conversation underscores the significance of strategic retail placement and the rewards of being flexible in the ever-evolving online and retail marketplaces. We also delve into the game-changing benefits of hiring Virtual Assistants (VAs) for essential tasks like product research. Learn how effective VA onboarding can propel business growth and the impact of diversifying sales channels beyond Amazon, including Walmart, Faire.com, and even TikTok Shop. With strategies for maximizing profit margins and leveraging social media for brand growth, this episode is packed with actionable insights for anyone looking to thrive in the competitive Amazon, Walmart, and e-commerce landscape. In episode 587 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Kseniia, and Robert discuss: 01:08 - Amazon Seller Stories - Catching Up with Kseniia Reidel & Robert Gomez 10:17 - Dependence on Declining Kitchen Appliance Sales 10:24 - Navigating Brand Pivots and Retail Success 20:32 - Walmart Retail Expansion Success Story 22:52 - Product Expansion and Virtual Assistant Hiring Success 26:17 - High Margin Product Strategy Growth 29:01 - Product Launch Strategy at Walmart 36:55 - Amazon Seller VA Time Management 40:01 - Exploring TikTok Shop for their E-commerce Business 41:12 - Retail Expansion and Product Development 44:04 - Brand Expansion Strategy Discussion ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got two guests back on the show who've never met each other, but they've both been on here before Robert, who's generated over $10 million of sales with his brand on Amazon and Walmart, and Kseniia, who used Project X strategies to launch her first product, and now this year she's about to hit seven figures for the first time. How cool, is that? Pretty cool I think. Not sure on what main image you should choose from. Or maybe you don't know whether buyers would be interested in your product at a certain price point. Perhaps you want feedback on your new brand or company logo? Get instant and detailed market feedback from actual Amazon Prime members by using Helium 10 Audience. Just enter in your poll or questions and, within a short period of time, 50 to 100 or even more Amazon buyers will give you detailed feedback on what resonates with them the most. For more information, go to h10.me/audience.   Bradley Sutton: forward slash audience. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that's completely BS-free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. And we've got a couple of serious sellers back on the show Robert for the second time, Kseniia for the third and a half time. We had her on a little Prime Day special here. But welcome back to the show, guys, your first time meeting each other was today. Right, you had no idea who each other was.   Robert: No idea.   Bradley Sutton: I love doing that. I love bringing different sellers who maybe under other circumstances, might never have known each other. So it's really good to see that people from all walks of life have success on Amazon. Now, if you want to get the backstory of Robert, his first episode was on 448. So we're not going to go too much into his backstory here. Maybe we'll touch a little bit on it, but 448 is a good one to see his episode. And then Kseniia has been on. I think her first was episode 320. And then she was back on episode 441. So we're really close to Robert's episode there, talking about how she 10X her sales from that first episode today. I'm not sure what we're gonna completely know about. We're gonna catch up, completely know about. We're gonna catch up with them might be up, might be down, but hey, we keep it real here. We're not here to make it seem like, uh, everybody who comes on is gonna 10x their, their, their sales. That's not why we brought her on the last time. But uh, let's see, let's see what happens. So, first of all, Robert, you know, like, like I, you know, the one thing that maybe people who listen to your episode, uh, that stood out was how you were still working at I don't remember it was like Microsoft or something like that for years and years, even though you were already a successful Amazon seller and that you had just around. That time finally was like, all right, I'm going to quit the day job. So you know, you have a couple of years maybe under your belt not working for the man, as it were. So how has that been?   Robert: How's that transition been from so long being like the corporate world and stuff and now being your own boss, kind of I think last time I was on was around that time that I had just quit or was about to quit or something. But yeah, I was at Microsoft for a few years. My background is in corporate finance and I started Amazon, kind of like a side venture, back in 2017, 2019. I launched the current brand that I have, but I sort of held on as long as I could, had a whole team and everything, before I finally quit. And around that time was when we were going into physical retail and we had got our first sort of big contract. So you know, it was kind of just time. The amount of time it was taking, the amount of efforts it took to execute that program just had to do it.   Robert: And it's now been a little under two years and it's amazing, I mean just the fact. I mean I love I was there for a reason, you know, and corporate served this purpose. You know, I think I'm always able to say that I used to work for Microsoft and that's kind of level setting very easy to tell somebody. But at the same time, obviously it just wasn't for me. From the day I joined Microsoft, I already knew that I wanted to quit. I already had the Amazon business and everything. It was just, you know, really just the golden handcuffs, as they call them. But yeah, haven't thought about going back any single time in this past year plus. So, yeah, thankfully, you know, any day that I get to do this has really been a blessing. It really doesn't feel like work.   Bradley Sutton: What would you say were the effects of it as far as on your Amazon business? Like having more time to focus? Like, did it stress you out more? Was it the opposite? Were you able to take care of things that might have slipped into their cracks? Were you able to scale faster? You think? What were the differences on that part of things?   Robert: It's hard to quantify it in that sense. But basically you know the role I had at Microsoft. I was a senior finance manager. My team was in the west coast at the headquarters, but I I'm based in the east coast, so it wasn't the amount of necessarily time it was taking. Quite frankly, you know, I had a pretty sweet sort of setup where I didn't take a lot of time right, and that's what made it even harder, because the more you get paid and the less you kind of work.   Of course that just sounds like a dream, right, if I just, you know, mentioned it to friends or just talk to people about it, like what are you doing? What are you thinking of putting it for? But it was just the mental sort of real estate, the real estate it took in my mind, even if I only had one meeting that day or two meetings that day. It was just kind of thinking of like oh, I have that meeting coming up, or just like I have to do this, or the feeling of like not giving something.   Robert: My all you know I'm kind of like all or nothing type of guy and so like just having to, like almost feel fake in the way that I showed up to work and it's. They still thought I was doing a good job. You know we had reviews and I was kind of doing OK and good on them, but internally I just felt terrible, you know, and then I just felt like if I could focus all the time, you know, on Cafe, it would unlock a lot of other things and it has, you know, like it has allowed me to get the team into more of a rhythm in the way that we run meetings and run cadences for certain product development, for sales, et cetera, whereas before it could have been interrupted at any given moment, right, because basically I had a job so I could always take that backseat.   Bradley Sutton: So yeah, it's been a ride, All right. Interesting. I think that's something that Amazon sellers out there, once they hit a certain level if they were working, you know is like a universal question All right, at what point do I do I, you know, give up the steadiness of income and the reliability and the insurance and things like that and go, you know, you know, focus solely on my, my Amazon business? For the people who already are out of out of the, the people who already are out of the corporate world once they start their Amazon business, well, they're just all in from day one, kind of, so they don't have that option. But I think the answer is it's different strokes for different folks. You're probably waiting the longest, more than anybody I've known, wasn't it like, even after you started your, your amazon business? Like a good three, four years um?   Robert: yeah, it was about ready to get multiple seven figures at that by that time yeah, yeah, um, we had sold a total of uh, maybe like 12 million or so, um, before I quit, and we rolled, I quit, we rolled out 4,000 Walmart stores and then I quit, basically yeah he was still rolling out 4,000 Walmart stores with his product.   Bradley Sutton: He's like you know what. Yeah, I think it's time now, but that just shows you that's not the wrong choice.   Robert: There's other people who wait after one month, and they're ready.   Bradley Sutton: That's not necessarily the wrong choice. It's whatever works for you.   Robert: There was no room for error. If I messed any of that up, not only would I need a job I would be way in that way, so there's one way to look at it but also the focus was there. That was my full time job. You know, I always say Amazon was my full time job, and then I had kind of a side side job in corporate.   Bradley Sutton: All right. So now going back to Kseniia, first of all, I'm not sure you know I don't remember the kind of things we talk about all the time. My memory is so bad. But then you know, Mhel gave me some notes this wasn't on there but before you started on Amazon like I do have in my notes here that you were doing like selling collectibles on eBay from Russia and things like that, but at any point, while you were doing Amazon, did you also have a day job or you were 100% your e-commerce business from day one?   Kseniia: 100% e-commerce.   Bradley Sutton: A great contrast I didn't even plan that, but is perfect. It is to have a. To have the contrast here now. I remember one thing that was, you know, kind of like the highlight of your old episodes is is the way that you discovered uh and launched some of those first products that brought you success was like using the project x uh method. So that brand that you started back in you know 2021, 2022, whenever it was uh are you still selling that brand today, the successful one?   Kseniia: Yep, still selling. I've had to change a little bit the product line and expand it but, yeah, the first product since from which one it started still there, still selling. It was exactly three years ago, actually, in August 2021.   Bradley Sutton: Wow, okay, perfect, perfect. Now, the last time we talked back, in 2023, uh, I think some of your closing comments about your goals was hey, you wanted to kind of like focus on, on building the brand a little bit more. I mean building the brand in the figurative sense, not, you know, not just expanding their products, but like actually building a, a brand. And how, what did you do to try to do that and how has that, those efforts, worked out?   Kseniia: Well, the first thing I want to talk about is what happened after last we talked. Is that in 2023, I lost like 40 percent of my sales? Wow, let's keep it real here.   Bradley Sutton: Let's keep it real Well, what was it an attack or just you know the competition? Did you make a huge mistake or what? What happened? Uh, did you make a huge mistake or what? What, what, what happened?   Kseniia: yes, I made a huge mistake, totally my fault, because when I started building this brand, this brand was focused on accessories for a kitchen appliance, and what I didn't think about is that my sales are going to be totally dependent on the sales of that kitchen appliance. Under no, no, no circumstances I can sell more accessories than the appliances sold. And so what happened is, in 2021 and 2022, the appliance sales were growing and they were doing a lot of social media, so my sales were growing, with me not really doing anything, like I didn't do any social media for my brand. But in 2023, from the beginning of 2023, for whatever reason, their sales started dropping like every month, less and less and less, and by the end of the year, I think they also lost like 40 or 50 percent of their sales and your sales were 100 reliant on theirs, yeah, the same. And anything I was trying to do. I tried to do social media, I tried to do Google ads at an agency, but nothing really was just a waste of money, basically because their product wasn't selling, so my products were not selling and my brand was 100% focused on accessories around that kitchen appliance. Wow, okay, so like I had eight products, I think, by the end of 2022. And they all were related to that kitchen appliance.   Bradley Sutton: Interesting, interesting. And so then you're like how do you pivot from something like that? It's like you know, your whole concept of your brand is around this one thing. And here you are trying to build your brand, but then like, wait a minute, this is not the direction I need to keep going, or else I'm going to keep going down yeah, I spent several months on trying to think about what to do about it.   Kseniia: I was like, oh, do I just dump it all and just start it all over? But then, like I had a patent pending for two of the products because they were selling really well and it was really my like design idea that I totally made from scratch, I was like I don't really want to dump it because, who knows, maybe like next year, their sales will go up again, you don't know. So I was thinking about it and I just decided to expand into the products that not a hundred percent related to this kitchen appliance that but can be used by the same people but also can be used by other people as well. So kind of exit the sub niche and get in a little higher niche. So they're still all related, but now I'm not tied to that kitchen appliance.   Bradley Sutton: Now, did it help at all that you were in that niche already to launch these other products? Were you able to market to your existing customers at all, or was it almost like starting from scratch again?   Kseniia: No, the first product that I launched after that was not 100 related to the other brand um was made for I actually got the idea from the customers of that brand, but it was also being bought by all other people. So and sometimes I see that the um, some of the purchases that are made, they're made like two products bought together yeah, the one for the brand and not not for the brand. So the first one kind of easy, and then I started expanding a little bit more outside of the something totally not related to that brand.   Bradley Sutton: Okay all right. All right, we're going to come back to you because I want to uh, double click on a couple of those things you're talking about. But now back to Robert. You know you had mentioned how, in in around the timing of the last episode, you're launching Walmart and there are thousands of stores. Um, I would assume you know we're here in in august that it's been over a full year now of Walmart store sales. So how would you, how would you say that that's gone? Like what kind of gross sales we talking about just in in stores on Walmart, and are we only talking one skew?   Robert: Yeah, so we launched, uh, maybe, yeah, 16 months ago or so, with two skews uh right away. Basically, one of those items was the intro offer. What they call that at walmart is basically the the cheapest option of that product at walmart right, in this case a coffee grinder, and from the time it went live it just started really selling. Just basically, we could see from the data like Nielsen data, which is like official retail data, not counting Amazon and e-commerce we could see that our product was the best-selling grinder in the us, like across all retail points, just because of that walmart placement, right like. So, imagine walmart being, you know, the kind of highest volume retailer and you're the cheapest in uh or the intro uh pricing there, so that that, you know, had what was kind of like a big boom.   Robert: Uh, struggle to kind of just make sure you know, basically keeping up with their projections were a lot lower than we actually did end up selling. Uh, and you know I kind of had already predicted that we would sell, about you know, more than they predicted, just cause that product did well in any other channel that we put it Um, and so, yeah, just kind of stabilizing that right, so making sure that through the holidays.   Bradley Sutton: I would always remember your uh, remember your Instagram post.   Robert: You would be going around to Walmart's all over the country you're on vacation stuff and go to the shelf where your product is and look it's empty, like we're sold out, like it's a fly, literally flying off the shelves yeah, so that's what was happening, you know, and so because it had one facing, meaning it's on the shelf once, instead of like having two, two of them and it would sell kind of fast enough that basically it wasn't. It wasn't able to maximize what it could do, right, because it wasn't available fully right. So we were missing, you know, maybe 20, 25 percent of sales there until, like, the Walmart kind of system catches up with it, like, uh, their forecasting system, um, but yeah, it's basically uh, it's bigger than an amazon business, uh, it's a high seven figures kind of deal and we're counting wholesale costs, so like not the actual retail, so it kind of would be bigger. And the thing with Walmart there is, you know it's compared to amazon it's huge. You know, like it's guaranteed you're a vendor, there's no middle sort of person there and just you know they place every week orders for 42 distribution centers, so like, basically every week we get 42 orders and it goes to other distribution centers, and then this May, so basically a year later or a little before that, they launched one additional item, so they added one more to the two and now there's three. And I also went to another line review for next May to hopefully add a couple more items. So it's just kind of working on the retail side there, but separately.   Robert: I was actually in Puerto Rico yesterday. I was, as I was telling you, meeting with the Walmart Puerto Rico team because they're rolling out, uh, basically a whole section of like 15 items, um, like they're, they're actually like taking up a whole section, um, and that, you know, even though there's not that many stores in Puerto Rico, it's a, it's a huge kind of way of proving it out, like you know, hey, you know, we did this over there. How about, you know, over here, right, right, two other retailers in the us, and that's kind of where the strategy is. So certainly ups and downs, you know it's not always, uh, rainbows and butterflies, as they say. Uh, that side of the business is great. That's what we've been focusing on for a while. But, uh, there's amazon as well. Not such a pretty picture there, but we're still going at it strong, obviously we're gonna want to uh, you know, uh listen to your story on amazon.   Bradley Sutton: But just going back to the Walmart you might have said this in the last episode but, like I said, I forget things how was it that you even got into Walmart before? Did you start to sell on Walmart.com? Did a buyer at Walmart take notice of you because you were crushing it on Amazon, amazon? You know that's probably the hardest thing for somebody who's interested to get in Walmart brick and mortar is getting on the radar of the buyers and actually getting you know in a media unless you'd, like you know, win a contest or do that uh open call or something like that. But how was it that you were even able to get your foot in the door with Walmart?   Robert: Yeah, so a little combination of a couple of things you mentioned, but essentially we have a broker, okay, and a broker, what a broker does, and it wasn't the first broker we had, by the way, and we have one for Target we have. You know, these brokers kind of charge a single digit percentage of sales if they ever sort of get you in the door. Some charge a monthly retainer. In my opinion I wouldn't go with those. You know, the ones that are like serious in my opinion more are the ones that charge you a percentage only if they ever get you in the door, right, um, and so we had tried one. It didn't work out. I mean, it's the same as us reaching out to the buyers, which we had also done, you know, and they don't really reply. You know, like all these retailers at least the, the biggest retailers they have once a year kind of reviews, right. So if you kind of get invited to the review, then maybe you they'll review your product, but that has to do with whether they're wanting to change whatever they have on the shelves, whether they're open to whatever you have, just like a lot of different things. Like the most common thing to happen is that they don't change anything on the shelf Right If it's kind of working or. You know, their jobs depend on the performance of what's on the shelf Right. There's not unlimited amounts, so they're very picky on what they select in. So that's why it's kind of like an uphill battle to get into the retail shelves, and more nowadays that everyone's pushing for conf right. If anything, they'll tell you oh, go try conf first. That's just kind of like a cop out to say like we don't want you on the shelf at the moment.   Robert: So how it worked with us is basically we had worked with a broker. It didn't kind of work out, just no motion there, and not to their fault. But another broker reached out and said hey, you know I can try to reach out, and he did, and it was regarding our coffee grinders and they basically said you know, you can come to Venville to present it at our line review in June of that year and they had seen the product on Amazon. So yeah, I think we were bestsellers or just doing really well compared to other things they had on the shelf and they invited us for that one product and of course when we went I presented other products Right. So you have like 30 minutes. You set up on a table and it's like go, go, go, and after that just kind of I thought it would be like a lesson learned sort of like. You know, maybe come back next year like a good job. You know, at least I learned how to do this thing. But they came back with, you know, questions that led me to believe that they were really interested, like, hey, you know, would you be able to like fulfill a large number of stores if we allocated you that? And, and you know, I just said yes, you know, I never.   Robert: Even that was our first retailer. You know, usually they try you out with a hundred stores or you maybe get into another independent retailer and then you kind of work your way up. But it was one of a weird case where our first retailer was, you know, every Walmart. So it's kind of like you have to learn how to execute the biggest one first, and so now we feel confident that any other retailer, it's kind of like it'll be okay. You know, capacity, volume, just processing the orders. It was a beast at first but yeah, that's how it worked out. Okay, cool, a long sales cycle.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Interesting, interesting. Now, switching back to Kseniia, you know, like in the old you know I remember some of your other products the way you would kind of find and or launch was, you know, like through Facebook groups and things like that. Like, are you still using that method to like? You know now that you kind of are going a different path, like, is this Facebook play a role, or how are you finding where the needs are to launch these new products? And then, how are you getting the initial eyeballs on your product once you do launch?   Kseniia: Yeah, the first one that I launched after switching of being the accessories for other brand that was also from a Facebook group. That also was from the same people. But then after that I realized that I need to find a VA finally, because it was only me before that and it got kind of hard when I got to like almost close to seven figures.   Bradley Sutton: Remind everybody what you did uh, you know to do that so they can kind of have a for those who didn't hear the last episode, so they can have a picture of your strategy here so before, uh, I was finding product ideas, I was on the Facebook groups for that kitchen appliance and I would just see what customers say.   Kseniia: Sometimes, a lot of times, because it was a new brand and it was like, basically no accessories for this kitchen appliance they would just say, oh, have anybody, anybody seen this product or this product that we can't find anything like this on amazon? We really want it and I would go like Esty or eBay, I don't know. I check Pinterest and I would see people try to make it themselves from, like I don't know, pieces of wood or something like that. So I realized, okay, well, it's great, then you check the search terms and people actually searching for this product, but there is no options available on Amazon. So that's how all the other products before were and then.   Bradley Sutton: So what did you hire the VA to do? Just start, you know, just be in all these Facebook groups and Reddits and stuff like that trying to get information, or what are they doing?   Kseniia: no, the first thing that I did when I hired her, I told her she needs to learn the Project X.   Bradley Sutton: Nice.   Kseniia: I gave her the Project X because I told her that's exactly how I learned how to search for products. So the first thing we did is that she watched the whole Project X Love it. Because I wanted her to learn how to find products, the way how the Project X was done. Not starting from the product itself, but let's say starting from the product itself. But I'll say started from the keyword. Yes, so searching for the opportunities and not searching for something that already exists, and you'll be surprised. I think it's in two months I don't remember how many she actually found, but the one that we're actually going with in two months it's like 10 or 15 products, something like that that's already passed, like we're getting the samples.   Robert: Oh, wow.   Kseniia: So that's just not the product ideas. That's actually what we will be launching.   Bradley Sutton: That's awesome.   Kseniia: So yeah, she's really great Okay.   Bradley Sutton: How did you find her? I think that's another thing that people wonder about is hey, how do I find good VAs who are actually going to produce, Like, did you go to a service? Did you just put a notice up, or?   Kseniia: I just went on a website. I forgot how it's called like jobsph or something like that. And yeah, I just did a post that I'm looking for a VA with like a specific requirements and I actually did like a an attention test, let's say so. I put it a note and in the middle of the resume and tell them that's how they should name the email when they reach out to me. And you'll be surprised, out of maybe a hundred people or more that reached out to me, maybe like five only actually read yeah the joke post and they put it the and that was like the first test and then they did a task trying to find a product.   Bradley Sutton: So hey, there you go, Robert. There's a tip for your, your next hiring thing. Like uh, dude, that's a good test to weed out half of the applications right there. I like it. I like it, okay, cool. So now you know, now that You've launched some products that kind of are not reliant on that one appliance, what do you project? Is your sales going to be by the end of this year on the trajectory you're going now?   Kseniia: Yeah, I think we will definitely hit the seven figures this year, so it should be better than so. So far, the best year was in 2022, when we got very close. I think it ended with like nine80,000 or something like that, and I think we should be more. Yeah, it should be more this year.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome, awesome Congrats.   Robert: You got to buy $20,000 worth of goods at that point. Yeah, just at the end of the year just like buy your own product.   Bradley Sutton: Come on, I mean you got to hit that number, but hey, that's good, you're going to do it without having to game the system like that this year. Awesome, Robert. Amazon. Let me look at my notes here. In your first year I saw you did $2 million on Amazon. You had grown it to like $4 million, which was pretty much Amazon.   Robert: Only If we were just to take the Amazon, not the Walmart. Are you up down? We're probably slightly down. I would say maybe 15% or so, 10 to 20. Part of that was our own doing. We had to prioritize. If we ran out of stock, it's not going to be at Walmart stores, it's going to be at Amazon, and it's happened a couple of times and know, and that's kind of affected. We had a really kind of high margin sort of products that we've launched and one of them did extremely well and we just haven't been able to keep it in stock because it is a new item to our supplier. But, like as an example, we launched it basically like month one, with no reviews, you know, just like our branding and running ads. We did almost like a quarter million dollars of sales and it was profitable, which is crazy. You know, usually we're used to losing money, you know, even after a while sometimes, uh, but you know that kind of like margin. There's certain like we're basically focused more on things that make margin, you know, or things that will basically help us push sales through our website, through other products, or things like that, like our hero, where we include an insert card and they're able to buy other accessories from us. But yeah, certainly, strategy slightly changed.   Robert: Within Amazon, advertising basically just kills a lot of the margins, but we see it as a brand awareness exercise as well. We have a lot of products on the roadmap that are higher margin and just kind of like uh, you know, complementary products and stuff that you know I think it's a survival of the fittest on amazon. You know, thankfully, we have always tried to open new channels. You know it wasn't just Walmart stores, you know, for a while we've done all the dot coms, you know, even as vendors like Target dot com, Walmart.com, Macy's Home Depot, fair dot com If anyone out there listening, maybe I'll save it for the 60 second tip. But Fair dot com, yeah, just, you know, all the channels start adding up, you know, and those are higher margin than and where you don't have to run ads and stuff.   Bradley Sutton: So how are you dealing with the year of the fees? It seems you know Amazon, you know 2024 new inbound fees and low inventory fees, which it sounds like you probably hit because you keep running out of stock, you know, on some items and refund fees and stuff like that. Like how have you been able to maintain your profitability? Or have you been able to maintain your profitability, you know? Have you had to raise prices or what's going?     Robert: On no, we just, we have not maintained the profitability, it's just straight. But not on amazon wise. You know, thankfully, the retail side for us just, you know, pays the bills and more. You know thankfully. But uh, we see amazon, as hey it's, it's tough for everybody. You know, thankfully we have another side of the business that it's actually our priority and you know we're still focused on Amazon. But we didn't keep the profitability. Necessarily we can't always just raise prices because we are basically selling on a lot of other channels, so it disrupts a buy box potentially and it's just one of those things where we just have to optimize on the ad side and just straight up, not focus on some SKUs that are, you know, kind of loss leaders or could be loss leaders.   Bradley Sutton: Now I'm looking, I'm just looking with Helium 10 here on your store page with X-Ray, and I see actually you know there's a number of products here that you've launched in the last year. Like I see it, says March of 2024. I see another one here, June of 2024, this coffee scale with a timer. Why, somebody, that's gotta be a serious person. You're weighing your coffee and you got a timer on it, but whatever. So there's all these unique products.   Kseniia: It's at Walmart.   Robert: So that product is at 3,000 Walmart stores. Wow so wait, hold on stores. Wow so wait, hold on, hold on.   Bradley Sutton: It just says you launch this in June. So does that mean that you actually launched a product on Walmart before Amazon? I love that. You see, I keep trying to tell people that exists. Some people say, oh no, Walmart is the opposite. You can expect less sales unless you get into the stores. But there are definitely people out there who launch on Walmart first. But anyways, my point was I see at least four or five products here that were launches here. So obviously you're actively, you know um, trying to expand the brand, you know. I asked Kseniia the same question how are you finding these, these new opportunities, like? What are you doing to, like, do your market research to say you know what? This is the next product we're going to try.   Robert: Yeah, so a lot to do with I mean doubling down on what works, for example, the categories that are working. We introduce either variations or new models if we see fit, and then we get a lot of feedback from retailers and pitches that we do to retailers. So we're in line reviews all the time with different retailers and they tell us we like this product, we don't like this product, or potentially, I think we launched maybe like 20 or 15 or 20 espresso sort of accessories, the scale being one of them this year, and that was from, basically, feedback from a Walmart buyer saying, hey, you know, it'd be nice in the future if we have some espresso tools you know that's kind of a trending category, or whatever. And we sort of said tools, you know that's kind of a trending category, whatever. And we sort of said you know, yeah, we have those kind of coming anyway. Yeah, you know. And then we went and looked for those. So we you know I have a lot of products that I've already tested and stuff, you know, every, basically everything. We're a coffee brand, so anything around the coffee categories, you know, are sort of constantly keeping my eye out and our factories also like innovating with us. Um, but yeah, it's, it's.   Robert: It's a lot of prototyping for retailers, rather than launching on amazon and seeing if it works and then sort of uh, then going to pitch to the retailer. So it's a lot more capital efficient, just sort of prototyping things or final sampling and then uh, sort of having them available on your catalog and then if a retailer wants it, then of course you go to mass production, you go kind of bigger on that and double down on amazon um, but yeah, on the amazon side for us, you know one thing that you probably wouldn't see on the numbers there, but we're we've been working with a 1p partner where we basically have a lot of margin on but we don't necessarily account for the sales through our account, you know. So, like our item wouldn't necessarily show that but it says sold by amazon. So there's some. We just started that as of like a month and a half ago or so, uh, and it's been kind of working really well, um, certainly making a lot of profit, and they're selling uh as dot com, as amazoncom. So that is sort of how we're mitigating the risk, just sort of looking for ways where we're able to keep profitability, because you know categories that need our products. You know our brand fits in well.   Bradley Sutton: Now one thing. The last question for you, before I go back to Xenia, is I don't know the specifics, but I used to supply Walmart to other companies I've worked at. But it's not like they pay you a month in advance or even they pay you up front. There's different terms that Walmart needs and then when they're ordering what? 50 units for 4,000 stores or 20 units for 4,000 stores everybody can do the math out there. We're talking a sizable chunk of change. How do you manage cash flow when you're almost having to front Walmart and some of these other things like and have such a big business with so much turnover? How do you have the capital to sustain, to keep it, to keep it going?   Robert: yeah, that's the part that hasn't been easy for sure. You know, financing environment altogether has gotten, you know, tougher for everyone. You know, obviously, the higher interest rates and stuff. I just bootstrapped this so of course even harder right, and I'm in a sort of categories that are, you know, some would say commoditized, unless you have like strong brand but you definitely are competing against legacy brands that are sold by amazon. So basically a lot of competition in that way. Um, so, to scale it, it's not like I had extra sort of profit margins to just dump around and make mistakes and sort of, you know, go everywhere. So it definitely took some, you know, strategic there, partnering with the.   Robert: I would say the biggest lever is our supply chain terms. You know our supplier terms are almost unheard of when I tell even you know bigger, much bigger sellers. Obviously I've taken on debt, you know, um, and that's been helpful, you know. You know decent amount of debt, but the largest chunk that allowed to scale at that point has been the supplier term. So think of uh, you know, usually you pay your suppliers maybe like 30 deposit and then the 70 maybe when the goods goods arrive at the US. You know if you're lucky, you know if not when it left China. We pay 15% deposit and then we don't pay the 85%, sometimes until 90 days after the goods arrive in the US. So basically, we sell it to Walmart.   Robert: Walmart pays us in 55 days and then we go and pay our supplier essentially. So at any given time we owe our supplier so much money that it also makes a relationship so that we basically don't have to. We do, uh, at least once for all we don't have to do inspections on containers because they're not going to mess it up. You know, if they mess it up, we owe them so much money that it's in their best interest to not. You know, uh, so it keeps that relationship always kind of lopsided in in this way and, quite frankly, is the cheapest financing.   Robert: You know that that one can get right. It's just basically your supplier taking on the brunt of it. So at some point earlier this year, yeah, like because of the terms with Walmart, basically Walmart owed us like maybe a million and a half dollars or something, which is crazy. You're like, okay, in the next 55 days every they're going to be paying some amount. But then we also owe the supplier like hundreds and hundreds of thousands, and then over there, this and then you have to order another container because you know Walmart's going to reorder and they're not telling you that, but if it's on the shelves they're going to start reordering as soon as it starts trickling in. So it's just a huge risk really. But when it's Walmart stores, I mean you just have to take it. You know I always said I'm either going to make this thing, you know work kind of do it big or leave a huge hole in the ground of where it was once. But it's business. You know, I try to remove the outcome from me. You know me, or my sort of self-worth, I guess   Bradley Sutton: Now, Kseniia, a similar question to you is you, as a smaller up-and-coming seller, how have you been able to deal with all the new fees? Have you changed your strategy about how you send stuff to Amazon at all, or anything else like about how you send stuff to Amazon at all or anything else, or are you just kind of like you know, just taking the new fees and raising prices, or how are you dealing with it?   Kseniia: Well, generally when I did the product research before and now we look only for the products that look at like 40% profit and obviously that was the profits that I had in 2022. And after all the fees, it just dropped to like 23, probably percent, 23, 25%. I'm very careful with PPC right now. I'm not trying to overspend on it Plus on the storage, so I'm basically storing for free the products in China after they're being manufactured, so I'm saving money on that.   Bradley Sutton: I think this is interesting. A lot of sellers are kind of like maybe in your shoes right now, maybe just by themselves, or maybe they have one or two VAs. Tell me, how many hours a week are you putting to your Amazon business? How many hours a week is your VA doing? And then what are you guys doing? How does your week look? How do you break apart the responsibilities?   Kseniia: So actually I hired the first VA in April, I think and I liked so much that I hired a second one, like a month ago. But she's only responsible for like social media because we started doing TikTok, uh and a lot of like UGC content, um. So the first VA she does a full time, so 40 hours um a week, and the second one is a part-time for now because I don't know how it's gonna go, because I don't think all the products are fit for like TikTok are you doing TikTok shop or just like promoting?   Bradley Sutton: yeah, TikTok shop. Okay, how's that.   Robert: How's that working out for you?   Bradley Sutton: I'll go back to the employees or the time management one, but how's TikTok?   Kseniia: Well nothing really. Yeah, we just we just started like three weeks ago, I think four weeks ago ago. So she's reaching out to a lot of influencers and through the affiliate program, through TikTok, so I don't know how many she probably reached out to like 200 a day or something like that. So some reply, some don't. So we've just been sending out some sample. I think we only got like one video or something like that yet posted, so not much yet.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, one employee is specifically doing social media for you, including TikTok shop, and the other one is she just doing the product research, like you mentioned before, she has other tasks for you as well.   Kseniia: Yeah, so the first one. She initially was hired specifically for product research, but then we got to the point where we got so many products that we found but there is not too much money, even though I've taken out the loan, but still there is not enough Like. But there is not too much money even though I've taken out the loan, but still there is not enough like. I don't feel confident yet to get like a huge loan. So we still have to launch like one or two products at a time. I can't do like go and launch all 15 at the same time, because the problem I ran into maybe six months ago is a launch product and it became. It started selling a lot better than I expected to.   Bradley Sutton: So cash flow. Same thing we're talking about with uh, with Robert there, yeah yeah, of course.   Kseniia: Well, at the moment where I started losing sales, obviously I didn't have any profits. So that's the moment when I had to decide what I'm gonna do if I'm just closing it all down or am I taking a loan. So I decided to get a loan and start launching new products, and then it got better. But also I use a lot of credit cards just because I get points. I figured out the right credit cards to use because I travel a lot. Then I honestly don't remember last time I paid for a ticket. It's all always done through points.    Bradley Sutton: So how do you, how are you paying your suppliers with a credit card? Cause not all, not everybody, knows how to do, how to do that.   Kseniia: Uh, so I just do it through Alibaba, but I negotiated a terms with them where they covered Alibaba fee, so I'm not worried about that. Okay, cool, but that way I get a bunch of points every month.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, because I know you and your husband like to travel a lot too. So you're saying all those are. Are you business class on everything too? Most of the times, but not for the short flights.   Kseniia: Okay cool, cool for the longer ones.   Bradley Sutton: So, Robert, as I'm talking to Kseniia, she was talking about TikTok shop. Here I'm looking and I see you're on TikTok shop too. So how, how long have you been on there and how's that been working for you?   Robert: yeah, I think we maybe, uh, earlier this year or something like that. Um, again, we have, uh, there's certain products that we know work a lot better for TikTok shop and we see it. You know, there's a concentration on a few products basically that work very well there. You have one of them pulled up. We just had inventory issues on those products. Basically, those products are really hot, kind of everywhere we put them and we really haven't been able to push as hard as we can on TikTok shop, but certainly everywhere we put them and we really haven't been able to push as hard as we can on tiktok shop but certainly are gathering a lot of affiliate content.   Robert: Um, and sales are starting to come in. You know, uh, we see it as a big kind of big potential there. Um, certainly so. We're. We're reloading on inventory on those and, and for those that didn't know, uh, fulfilled by tick tock, I think basically, and for those that didn't know, fulfilled by TikTok, I think, basically they're subsidizing shipping. So you essentially make more margin on certain products as long as you get them above a certain threshold. So, yeah, it's one of the channels that we're focusing on. That's newer, okay.   Bradley Sutton: You know we talked before about your goals. So, like what are your goals now for the future of your brand, now that you have like a different direction than the last time we were talking? Like what are you trying to accomplish at the end of this year other than hitting seven figures? What's next year look like for you?   Kseniia: We're just going to try to launch as many products as we can. Our goal is probably two to three products every couple of months, so like a product a month. So that why we try to develop um. At the same time we're developing like five products, because you never know how it's gonna go um and, of course, do more social media, do more content, just to, you know, to get the, the brand name out there. Uh, we just started doing Shopify, like a month ago or no, a week ago, I think. I just started working on a website um.   Bradley Sutton: Are you launching any other platforms? Obviously you're on amazon. You're on TikTok shop. You just said you're on Shopify. Are you on Walmart?   Kseniia: or other places. Not yet, not yet.   Bradley Sutton: But yeah, I'm thinking about going there too, as well, now you've got an inside connection at walmart if one of your product takes off somebody who can help you out here, Excellent. What is your favorite? Helium 10 tool, Kseniia or function of a tool.   Kseniia: Probably the audience. That's the one that I use all the time. Is it called audience?   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, the split where you ask the questions to the people and say, how are you using that Like for your images, or just for product ideas, or what are you using that?   Kseniia: honestly for everything, for both for the product ideas, for the images, because I just think it's so easy. You know, when you're thinking about like the product we find, then I usually do um, like the drawing and uh, 3d you know the 3d image of the product that doesn't exist yet. Then usually all my products are like, really designed differently. That's what's on the market right now and I just upload the image there and I see what people say and ask them would you buy this product? And if you wouldn't buy this product, why not? Or what would you change in this product? And sometimes I see the things that I didn't even you know, I didn't even think about that.   Bradley Sutton: So you're launching just the 3D rendering and just asking a question on that image, or you're launching it like, or you're launching it, you're putting it in a poll next to like existing products and asking them, or which one are you doing?   Kseniia: I'm doing both. Actually, the first I just do the rendering and ask them would you buy this product? And if you would not buy this product, would you change like, how would you make it better for you? And then sometimes I also compare it to the other products that on the market and ask them which one would they buy? Interesting and a lot of times I do the changes on the product based on what the people say.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah, I think it's important. I mean helium 10 audience, which is, you know, uh basically pick fu inside of Helium 10. I think is slept on by a lot of people. But that's, that's uh glad to see somebody's similar questions. To close out, uh, before we get to our final 30 second tips to Robert, like what's, what's your goals for the brand this year, next year and beyond?   Robert: Yeah, so we're. We're really just doubling down on retail. We have a line reviews with different retailers. We're attending different trade shows, not like Amazon trade shows but like actually exhibiting. We did our first one in Chicago this year that had brought a lot of leads to basically regional retailers and all these new doors where we can just increase our distribution Within Amazon. Just continue to execute our roadmap. You know, basically double down on the products that are working and like higher margin products, but basically just doubling down on what's working. The brand, the angle of like being a go-to coffee brand versus legacy brands, that kind of just focus all over home, all over kitchen yeah, it's really, you know, seems to be really hitting a nerve with retail buyers. So that's kind of where we're going.   Bradley Sutton: Nice, nice and your favorite Helium 10 tool for you or your team.   Robert: Keyword Tracker. I use the Keyword Tracker a lot, market Tracker the original one. So those are my top two and that's because I have a lot of customization there. And I would say, to answer your other question on what could have maybe some improvement, although I like the interface a lot, is the profits. I think I talked to the team already but maybe there was some delay there with the advertising numbers being posted and so, like you know, profit being a tool that you want to look at almost like real time, you know, as opposed to like a few days back. But overall, you know, I love Helium 10. We use a lot of the tools the follow up tool, the you know I hadn't heard of the audience one we use PickFu from time to time, same thing.   Bradley Sutton: It literally is PickFu just inside of Helium 10.   Robert: Yeah, I didn't know that you guys had integrated like that. But, yeah, a lot of tools that help us keep an eye on the business, a lot of the notification stuff, the daily like keyword tracker emails that we get. You know, we really do use all those things Awesome.   Bradley Sutton: All right. So now you know. Robert and Kseniia have been on this podcast for a while, so they know what's coming up next. What is your 30 or 60 second tip? Let's start with Robert.   Robert: So my tip revolves around retail or going into retail. But first I want to talk about a channel called Faire like fair with an E at the end, dot com. To those who haven't heard it, especially if you're selling on Amazon or already on e-com, it's essentially a marketplace for independent stores all throughout the US, Europe, whatever, just sort of mom and pops, coffee shops, just any sort of stores that wants to source goods for their store, and it does really well for us. We've sold six figures through there, high margins, and we get pictures all the time from random friends and things like hey, how is your product that's in a random coffee shop in the middle of random city? Or just like in this little store, I saw your products. So you get actual feedback on what your products look like on the shelves and which products actually sell, Because those products, even though it's going to be a little store, it's going to be on the shelf, so you're going to see which products turn and why they do or do not turn, and that will kind of build up your first book of customers that are actual physical retails. Right, there's a lot of reorders on there and it's just a great way to get your feet wet into going to retail go ahead, you know, into going to retail.   Bradley Sutton: So that's my tip there. Okay, cool, all right now. Now over to uh Kseniia. What is your uh 30 or 60 seconds? Uh tip or strategy for the sellers out there?   Kseniia: I want to talk about the product development. I want to say that never stop product development. Uh, always have multiple products and a development at the same time. Um, even if your budget allowing launching only one at a time, because there is always going to be something that's going to go wrong, like the samples might not be made according to the drawings, suppliers might take a lot longer time to make the sample, or your packaging can get lost in the mail. So, and if something goes wrong with one of the products that you're developing, you always will have another options what to launch.   Bradley Sutton: Cassini in the past. I know she kind of flies under the radar here, and that's why I love having people on the show. They don't come here with agendas, they're not trying to. You know like I'll have professionals, no problem. You know people who have agencies, people who do want to make a name for themselves no problem with that at all. I get good stories. But I also like having people on here who, who, hey, they're not on here for promotion, they're just trying to help other sellers out here. So, Kseniia, I know I don't even have to ask that that that she doesn't even have a you know any website or LinkedIn for people to reach out to. But, Robert, I think you do so like, if people want to, you know somehow find you on the interwebs out there. How can, how can they locate you?   Robert: Gladly, we'll connect. I love just talking to sellers and helping in any way I can. I always learn as much as I give away at least. So gladly please reach out. LinkedIn would be fine, Robert Gomez, just search for me and glad to chat.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. Well, Robert and Kseniia, thank you so much for coming on and sharing what you guys have been up to, and we definitely want to reach out maybe in 2025 and maybe not together, because I like introducing people to new ones, but maybe we'll connect you with other sellers out there. But thank you so much for coming on and wish you the most of success in your e-commerce journeys.

Guest: Robert MarbutPosition: former Executive Director of the US Interagency Council on HomelessnessResource: No Address Interactive Study GuideInterview Location: NRB 2024Website: noaddressmovie.com

Guest: Robert MarbutPosition: former Executive Director of the US Interagency Council on HomelessnessResource: No Address Interactive Study GuideInterview Location: NRB 2024Website: noaddressmovie.com

Today's Building Texas Business Podcast episode finds us chatting with Robert Grosz, President and COO of the tech company WorldVue. Robert shares insights into how WorldVue has sustained success for decades through strong customer relationships and a responsibility-centered culture. He details their customer-centric approach and innovation fostering, revealing lessons learned navigating the pandemic with a dedication to service and constructive dialogue. Robert also opens up about transitions into leadership, emphasizing quick decisions, balancing loyalty with progress, and his thoughtful vision for a blended family-exploration sabbatical. From navigating disagreements to keeping pace with industry shifts, Robert offers a compelling view of resilient leadership. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Robert Grosz, the President and COO of WorldVue, discusses how the company drives growth through strong customer relationships and a company culture rooted in responsibility. He highlights the importance of fostering innovation, creativity, and relevance in the ever-changing tech landscape to stay competitive. We discuss WorldVue's response to the pandemic, emphasizing the importance of their company culture, which includes responsibility, dedication to customer service, and the importance of constructive dialogue. He talks about his transition into a leadership role at WorldVue, emphasizing the importance of quick decision-making and his philosophy on loyalty. Robert shares his proposition for a 30-day sabbatical, and his appreciation for the dynamic beauty of Texas. The episode touches on building relationships and driving growth,We discuss how WorldVue has been successful for 50 years by solving problems, befriending customers, and adding value to their lives. Building a strong company culture is discussed, with Robert explaining how WorldVue managed to successfully navigate the pandemic thanks to its dedication to customer service and focus on responsibility. Building trust and success in leadership is also covered, with Robert emphasizing the importance of making decisions fast and how loyalty can be an adversary to that philosophy. Robert shares his vision for a 30-day sabbatical, which includes spending the first two weeks at home with family and the last two weeks exploring the dynamic beauty of Texas. Finally, We discuss Roberts approach to navigating leadership disagreements, sharing a key lesson learned from past experiences that resulted in lost opportunities. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Robert GroszAbout Robert TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you'll meet Robert Grosz, president and Chief Operating Officer of WorldVue. Robert shares how WorldVue focuses on building a culture of responsibility by being a service-oriented company to its customers in order to drive growth. Robert:, I want to thank you for agreeing to come on Building Texas Business. It's a pleasure to meet you. Robert: Chris, it's great to meet you as well. Chris: Let's get started by just telling the audience about WorldVue and what it's known for. Robert: Chris, have you ever had a friend that is really good at something, whether it's fixing cars or technology, programming your TV, things like that? Chris: It's a friend that you can count on. Robert: It's their best friend. Sure, they go above and beyond. If you've got a problem, you know you can come to them. They respond quickly and they give it their all. Even if they don't know about the solution, they give it their all and they help you and they add value to your life and you build that friendship. That's what we strive for at WorldVue. WorldVue is a company that's been in business for almost 50 years now, houston-based. Our customers are hotels and our expertise is technology. So if a hotel brand, a hotel owner, an individual hotel has a problem with technology, we want them to come to us because we want to be their best friend forever and add value to their lives. So what we're known for is solving problems for hotels, befriending them, building relationships with them and just being part of that industry, being part of the hospitality business. Chris:And that's what's made us successful for 50 years. That's great. I love how it's so ingrained that it's about relationships and even using the analogy of best friend, what inspired you to get involved with WorldVue? What inspired this company to get to where it is today? Robert: Yeah, so they've been along a lot longer than I've been with them. Chris: Sure, I don't look that. You started a company. I started when I was one. Robert:No, no, that's started long before. It's a family business. It's still a family business. The founder still comes to work. He's usually the first one there and the last one to leave. I'm very, very engaged but of course the business has changed a lot over the years. I've known the company for the last 17 years. I actually was with Dish Network. Dish Network is where WorldVue gets their programming, their content, the TV content and some of their technology and I got to know them as a supplier, vendor, got to know the people. I fell in love with the people, fell in love with the company, the culture. The time came where they were kind of pivoting and it's kind of the next generation of WorldVue and we're building this company as a legacy business to last for the next 10 generations and they needed someone with my skillset, my expertise, to help lead them into that. And that's kind of how I got to know WorldVue and got to be involved with WorldVue. Now I'm the president and chief operating officer of the company and I've got a great team around us and teamwork I'm sure we're going to talk about teamwork and people are very, very important and kind of fulfilling our mission. So yeah, that's the origin story of how I got involved with WorldVue. Chris: Okay, that's great. So technology company means evolution and innovation have to be in the fabric of the company. So talk to us a little bit about what you do in your role to foster creativity, innovation, to keep WorldVue relevant in its industry. Robert: Yeah, sure, and relevance. I'm glad you said that word. Relevance is our key growth driver. So you know we've got two growth drivers One's relevance, which is all about product, it's all about the technology that we're out there evangelizing, designing and supporting and really becoming experts at, and with that relevance drives market share growth and getting into more and more and more hotel properties. We currently serve 7000 properties in the US, and now we're expanding internationally. But we're a product driven company because that's our expertise. You know, we want to be the best friend to our clients. That's kind of why we exist. But the what we do is the technology, and we will use technology from leading providers that are off the shelf, you know some big brands that everyone's heard of before, like LG and Cisco. You know brands like that, but what we'll do is we'll take those and we'll integrate them. So integration is kind of what we do best and it's kind of our secret sauce is how do you integrate big, big brands like an Oracle with a LG which does interim entertainment and TV technology? That's our secret sauce. Chris: So the integration. Robert: We're the glue between big technologies and we do it very well. And again, if you lean back on the why you actually want to develop this relationship to add value to your customers and we want your customer to be your best friend. That's kind of what we're doing. So it is related to the technology. We like to say we're a service company that just happens to do technology. We're not a technology company that tries to do service. That's one of our big differentiators. Chris: I would imagine that's a meaningful difference in mindset when you go to the hiring process and building your team to have that servant service oriented mindset be the lead, primary thing you're looking for. What are some of the things you're you do to make sure you're hiring the right people that fit that mindset? Robert: Yeah, yeah, yeah surrounding yourself with people better than you is one of our mantras at any level of the company, and I think if you, just if you, champion that mantra, you know constantly looking for people that do things a little bit better than you, whether it's a specific skill or an attitude, and I think attitude is something you can't really teach. Attitude is something that you carry with you as a human being in your existence, is your WorldVue, which is one of the reasons for the name world. Chris: Gotcha, that makes sense is. Robert: You've got to have that. You've got to have your head on straight as it relates to how do you interact with others, how you act with it, with a team, how you help build the team, how you pull in the same direction to achieve a goal, and those things are very important. We can hire people that are incredibly intelligent, incredibly book smart, have done amazing things and we do but but if, if you don't hire for the attitude and you don't hire for the teamwork, you're going to end up failing, and that's really what we look for there's some tools you have in place so that in that process, the people doing the interviews, whatever it is, and however you go about that, that help you identify or get a bead on the attitude that the candidate has. Yeah, so so we developed our own tools and we, of course, use off the shelf tools, personality assessments and things like that. But, we developed a tool that we called chirp. It's an acronym C, h, I, r, p coachable, humble, intelligent, responsive and persistent. So what we do is, when we're talking to someone, we try to bounce those, those, those challenges, those dynamics off of the candidate to see if they're open to actually learning and becoming a better person. Chris: And if you don't have the C, the coachable. Robert: It's going to be hard for you to be part of the team. Sure Because regardless of what you know, even the smartest person on earth, there's still something for them to learn and they have to be open minded about absorbing that and taking some direction and realizing the experience of others. So coachable humble humility is important. It's related to coachable Intelligence. Isn't book smart, it's more emotional intelligence. It's no one what to say when to say it. Being quick on your feet, having that mindset about who you actually are as a person and how you interrelate to each other, and then how you actually consult problems related to a specific tactical technology, that's intelligence. Chris: Responsive you know. Robert: When the phone rings, you answer it. When an email comes in, you respond to it, you don't let it dwindle. Right and persistence. Persistence is that hunger and that energy, right. Persistence is, you know, knowing that there's a goal, knowing that it's going to be tough to get to that goal, if it's worth pursuing and fighting for it. You know so. Together is the chirp. If you look at our logo, there's a wonderful sparrow icon, which is the chirp, which is a bird, so it all ties together. Chris: Okay. So how do you then take this service oriented mindset you hired using chirp, which I love the acronym. How do you then take that into action and actually go about building these relationships to where your customers become your best friends? How do you connect those dots? Robert: Yeah, so I mean it's about engagement with the customer on their turf right. The world revolves around the customer, doesn't revolve around us as individuals or as a company. So you go to where they are. You go to where the relevance factor is high to them, whether it's a trade show event or it's their office, whether it's charities that they might sponsor and support that are worthwhile getting involved with you. Try to make it about a personal relationship, and that's where our best customers and our best employees thrive is when you can truly make it about the individual. That's very, very important to us. We get on their turf and we try to understand who they are as a person. We're not just checking a box. If we check a box, we become a commodity. When we become a commodity, then the margins are rode, financial performance isn't there and we don't exist Right. So we've got to make it about that personalization. We've got to make it about the customer. Chris: Very good. So let's talk a little bit about how the company has maybe managed over these last few years. I would think, given what we experienced in 2020 and coming in a few years out of that there was, your customers, at least, had probably suffered some downturns in their business, which probably translated to you. What are some of the things you did to help manage the company through those tough times? Robert: Sure, yeah Well, the hospitality industry in general and a lot of industries, but especially the hospitality industry. When people stopped traveling for business, they stopped traveling for personal. They didn't go on vacation. We had a lot of our hotels closed down. Some of our hotels stayed open for first response medical personnel, things like that and they did okay. Some very limited service hotels that don't really exist for that business traveler but they exist just because they need a bed to rent Actually did okay. They thrived, they had good occupancy. We as a company were fortunate. We managed, not by laying people off and cutting back, but we managed by committing and recommitting to our employees. So we had no layoffs because of COVID. We took a kind of unique philosophy to the pandemic and that period of time two, three year period of time where we got back in the office as soon as we could and we did that in a safe way. So there was social distancing and making sure that everything was clean and being aware to the health of all of our employees and respecting individual wishes, but we encourage people to get back in the office in October of 2020. And we've been back since, and we do that because we think that people communicate best in person. It's probably one of the reasons you have us all here to have a podcast, as opposed to doing it virtually. Absolutely Is that personal connection. You can't put your finger on it, but it's important. So I think that that action was a cultural move and I think it's had it's paid dividends for us. I hope it's paid dividends for our employees and I think we'll continue with that mindset. We were there to help our customers, so we were making sure, from a commercial perspective, that we could give them as much relief as possible. We were there to help them turn up their properties, turn down their properties using all kinds of technologies. So there's a lot of different technology out there that a hotel uses. And we were there for them, in all fronts. Chris: That's great. I can totally identify with that thought process, that mindset. We took the same approach in 2020, got people back in in May of 2020, doing the same thing making sure the workplace was safe, but with the view that we work better together. It does foster a healthy culture. I think it makes us better in who we are and in our work and how we can serve our clients and customers. And, to your point, I'm pretty adamant that these podcasts although we've done a few via Zoom because we had to 90, I mean there's I don't need all fingers on one hand, they've almost all been in person, because you just can't replace the dynamic when you're together. So you touched on it. I want to go down this trail with you. And that's culture. How would you make, describe the culture at WorldVue and what are some of the things that you have done to build and foster that culture? Robert: Sure, so we have a culture of responsibility. We're responsible to each other as much as we're responsible to our customers and we have a promise that we make, which is we deliver every time, no exception. And that is as relevant for the guy in the office next to you as it is to your customer, which could be a couple thousand miles away. Right, you know, we deliver every time, no exception. So if someone needs something, we strive to deliver that right. We strive to deliver on the promise. Sometimes it's not easy, oftentimes it's not easy, but it takes a lot of energy and a lot of focus, and I think everyone knows that. But that promise in the company from, you know, from the, the, the, the newest call center rep, all the way to the top they all try to kind of pull that direction. That creates that culture of rowing in the same direction. And that is very, very important. Because if you've got a company that's rowing in multiple directions, it's going to be, it's going to be problematic, it's going to be expensive, the trust is going to be violated, you're not going to be able to move quickly and address customer needs, you're not going to look at the dynamic of what customers can offer in the marketplace and turn quickly to address that it's. It's really core to to who we are as a company, as as individuals. Chris: So what do you do as the president, chief operating officer, low leader, to show up so that people understand that you live the culture, you can enforce that culture. What are some of the things you do to reinforce that every day? Robert: Yeah, so you've got to lead from the front. It's all about attitude. You can't come in all slouched over. You've got to be on point and you've got to do it authentically. It can't be fake, right? And that's a challenge sometimes. Chris: For sure. Robert: And you've got to have your focus. You've got to have your eye on the prize, if you will. Communication is critical, so routine, touch-based meetings. I don't like to have long meetings that consume people's time or people attend the meeting to be attending the meeting. I want there to be a purpose and a reason. I want there to be lots of dialogue. Constructive criticism. Constructive differences make everything special and you can't just kind of dominate. You've got to listen to the different opinions. Chris: Ask more questions. Robert: Ask more questions. We like to say listen 10 times more than people are talking, and you've got to lead by example. If you don't do that yourself as an individual, again something's wrong and everyone sees it and everyone knows it. Chris: So I asked most guests about setbacks or failures and we learned sometimes much more by those. Is there a situation or experience you can think about as a leader where it didn't go as you hoped or it was a failure or setback in a decision or strategy, but you learned from it and the learning from that has made you better today than you were before. Yeah, absolutely. Robert: I mean I've got lots of setbacks and failures, but I think one big example would be if there is a disagreement between leaders and they're not seeing eye to eye and they don't address it quickly, it can create division and that division creates distraction and the distraction creates lost opportunities. And we've dealt with that over the last few years. We've had some disagreements on the direction we needed to go and the solution was coming in the room together, fixing it, getting it on the same page, having the confidence and the buy-in at the most inner level as a person, as an individual, and making the team more cohesive. So you can go from cohesive to a failure very quickly if you don't pay attention to that dynamic. So that was one of big lessons learned. There are others where you bring individuals into the company based upon their experience and their pedigree and you throw them into our mix and they just don't dance our dance and they create a bunch of disruption and you've got to move fast there. It's tough letting people go. It always is tough letting people go, but oftentimes it's good for them as much as it's good for the company, because they're not comfortable in their shoes. That's tough to be a person. When you're not comfortable in your shoes, it's tough to live a life. Chris: Yeah, you touched on something there that I think everyone that I've interviewed in these podcast agree. The biggest lesson learned maybe in that difficult time when someone's not fitting is making that decision faster than you feel like you probably want to, because the person that's not fitting in your organization will be better off because it's just not a good fit and they'll find the place they fit better and your organization will be better because that person that's not fitting is going to be a distraction. It potentially could erode culture and you're just always better off moving faster, even though it'd feel right in your gut sometimes. That's right. You're affecting human lives. Robert: Yeah, and loyalty, by the way is the adversary to that philosophy. Chris: Right, so we all want to be loyal to people. Robert: I think good people are loyal, but you have to have the vision, the foresight, the clarity to understand where there's loyalty and then there's a bad fit, a poor fit. And if there's a poor fit then the best move is always make it a better fit. So that's very important. Chris: As WorldVue has grown, what have you done to build a team around you and let go of some of the things that maybe you used to do more on a day-to-day basis and learn to make us trust and let go yeah, trust is a key word. Robert: So finding people better than you at things, making sure that they're the right fit and then trusting that they're going to get the job done, and sitting back and delegating some responsibilities that you may have you may think that you need to do to them or to their teams, and then watching it grow. And it's very easy to delegate to somebody, but it's difficult to give them enough rope where they're going to actually lead or fail. If they fail, then you can step back in and you can fix it and you can delegate to someone else. You could coach them, but if you've got good people around you I mean if you've got good people that are pulling in the same direction they will self-adjust, they will succeed because they want to reach the same goal that you want to reach. So in some ways it can be very, very simple and easy. Oftentimes it doesn't feel that way when you're doing it, so that's an interesting dynamic. Chris: It really is. The other thing I was going to ask you about, excuse me, is you kind of had an interesting experience in that. I guess I'm talking about transition, succession from founder of company that's still around, as you mentioned in the beginning, but you stepping in to the leadership role as president, chief operating officer maybe talk to us, because there's some listeners out there maybe doing that or or that's in their near future. Let's talk a little bit about what were some of the challenges of bridging that transition gap as you took over as the president of the company. Robert: Yeah, I think, from my personal story, it's about building trust and having integrity as well as having a deep level of respect. If someone founds a company that's been around for almost 50 years, I look up to them. I don't care what that company is. I mean, they've done something that a lot of people have never experienced or will never experience, and I've got to give them tons of credit for that and have utmost respect for that effort. But making that person or that group of people trust you and inspiring them to let you lead is a significant, significant initiative that you've got to have a lot of purpose, a lot of focus on, and that's kind of the most important part, I think, is to to build a relationship. Build that relationship, build the trust, be authentic, have integrity. They will then see that you can lead and take what they've done to the next level and hopefully that will benefit their family and families for generations to come, because that's the ultimate outcome. It's not building to flip it, it's not make a fast buck. In fact, the bucks have nothing to do with it. It's about the purpose. It's about what you deliver value to society, to your customers. It's about what you want to do. That's why that analogy to a friend a best friend is really good at something. I think that's a very good focus for us to have, and I think that if you can generate thousands and thousands of friends throughout the world that all have that need, you've got a successful business that's providing college educations, food on the table, happiness, travel, fun for families, countless families. That's really exciting. That's kind of the passion. Chris: Did you have any challenges as that transition, where the people that used to report directly to the founder maybe weren't coming to you at first, and how did you manage that? Robert: I would be lying to say that that doesn't still exist. It does. It's just a challenge that you have to acknowledge and you have to kind of embrace. I get it. Like I said, the respect level that I have for the founder, the founding family, is so high that I would expect that legacy employees that have been around for a long time. Look at that with the same level of respect. Chris: So you don't take offense to it, oh you can't take offense to it. Robert: It's an eagle driven thing. Chris: Yeah, well, it sounds like that attitude that you bring to it is consistent with the culture, that you're the mindset of the right attitude and that the company's got everyone going in the same direction. Yeah, that's right. So it's not easy running a company the scale and size that you do. What are some of the things that you've done personally to try to have a very successful business life, but also very successful and fulfilling personal life? Robert: Sure, yeah, I mean, I've got four children, twin three-year-olds, a seven-year-old and a 22-year-old and a wonderful wife at home and you know you can't lose focus on what they need and what they want. You can't lose focus on being at home. Right, home is where the heart is. Home provides all kinds of emotional support and you know that's kind of been my exercise routine is making sure that I can maintain a healthy home, which you know. There's this concept of balance that I haven't figured out yet Sure like everyone has their own definition right. Yeah, but because of technology you can be in one location and have a FaceTime call with someone else and you at least can, you know, make sure you're there from a voice and a conversation standpoint. But it's not easy. For sure, but it is definitely worth living for, it's worth striving towards, and you know I value the family component of my life tremendously and I'm hoping that that lends itself to the mission of where we are, the direction we're headed as a company. Out that comes off, and you know I try to treat the folks around me that are closest to me in the office like family as well, and I get a lot of practice. Chris: That's good, that's great, great attitude about it. So what do you see on the horizon? What's next for WorldVue? Where do you see the near future taking you? Robert: Well, our friends are getting larger and larger. We're getting more of them. We are expanding internationally. So we just formed entities in the UK and the EU and Dubai, as well as, I believe, in Singapore and Mexico City. So, we've got a strategy to expand what we do globally, which is going to be very, very exciting. It's going to be very, very difficult. The challenge is exciting, though, and the great people around me and our teams are all excited and enthusiastic about that. But, from just growing business and sticking to our knitting in terms of domestic growth. We've got great relationships with hotel brands. There are multiple. The environment of hospitality is multidimensional and very fascinating to me at least. Where you've got a brand presence, you've got real estate owners, you've got operators and then you've got, of course, guests and the occupants of the property and you've got to serve all four of those groups in a special way and make sure that you're coming through for them. And so we've done a pretty good job at all of those levels. We're excited about some of our brand relationships that are growing and we're becoming more of their best friend. They have other friends. Sure You're their best friend. So the growth plan with product competencies as one lever and market share expansion as the other lever, is what's going to take us forward, and we'd like to be five times larger than what we are in the next five years. Chris: Oh, it's aggressive, it's aggressive. I was going to ask you what's driving that growth? Robert: It's demand. The demand that there's so much technology out there. Technology has become this kind of ambiguous word, right. Sure when it could be hard technology, like a wireless access point or a TV or an ethernet switch or a door lock, or it could be a software right. The software is kind of the glue that makes that hardware valuable, and the software on each of those individual devices is unique. And the key is how do you integrate those softwares together to create an amazing experience, whether it's for a guest, for a hotel associate, the housekeeper or for the owner of the property? In terms of value creation through stronger profitability, there's opportunities to leverage technology to not only solve problems but create opportunities. We think that's where the real demand is going to come from. We just have to be there to be their best friend make it all work and when they have a problem, come to us. Chris: Be that trusted friend. Robert: Be the trusted friend, trusted advisor. Chris: So what advice would you give to someone who aspires to be a business leader or entrepreneur, based on your experience, Create a focus, like create something you really want to achieve. Robert: Start at the end, like what do you want your life to look like and what do you see doing that really is a passion for you. Leave all the other stuff out of that equation, leave the money out of that equation, leave the location out of that equation. But focus with the end in mind, in terms of how you'd like to live to, and then build backwards from there, like what does it take to get there? Create a roadmap for yourself. I know, very early on in life I saw the movie Wall Street and this is on silly, but I loved business after that. I don't know why I don't know what it was, maybe it was the acting, I don't know but I wanted to be a businessman, I wanted to be in business and then I lived my life. I got to college. I was lucky enough to run into some very influential professors. One of them happened to be a real estate guy. He was doing commercial real estate development and exposed me to a company called Equity Group Investments which is based in Chicago. I grew up in Wisconsin, based in Chicago. A guy named Sam Zell who just passed away this last year. And Sam was an iconic entrepreneur, a builder of businesses all along the real estate kind of foundational area, and I decided I wanted to work for Sam Zell. So I graduated college, moved to Chicago, no job, started originating mortgages 100% commission straight out of school and just pursued Sam's company, got involved with Equity Residential, which was his apartment rate, got in the flow of that company, developed this love of technology. I've always had a love of technology, applied technology to real estate early on in the early 90s, kind of made a name for myself, and then that took me to where I am today, which is real estate technology, the scene between the two, solving problems and then being someone's best friend. Chris: There's value there. Robert: And that's kind of how what. I would advise so, start with the end of mind. Chris: Okay, I love that Great story, so let's turn to a little lighter subjects. What was your first job? Robert: First job was? That's a great question. First job I worked in a warehouse and I was moving things around a warehouse after school and I was 14, 15 years old. Like no technology involved in that there was like a tow motor, a tow motor and a truck and a dock. But you know, and really exposed myself to an interesting lifestyle, you know, the people who work in warehouses are pretty salt of the earth and you know, boy, you sweat it in that job right, and then you know. But probably my most interesting job and the one that I was at the least or the shortest amount of time was. I joined a roofing crew in a summer in college and I was on that job for a total of four hours. Chris: And. Robert: I had blisters and bloody hands in that first morning. It was a commercial three-story roof, pitched roof, asphalt, you know, shingles and those guys. I've never seen someone work as hard as them and I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. So I went to work as a teller after that. Chris: Okay. Robert: Two weeks later, a bank teller. Chris: Okay, okay, well, so you mentioned you grew up in Wisconsin. Yeah, Been in Houston a while now, so, being newer to Houston and Texas, what do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Robert: Oh, barbecue. I love the quality of the food meats you know the taste. I think it's good that there's a competition between barbecue to see who's best. I love like playing that game. Chris: It's a good experience as well, there's so many good options. Last week, in fact, someone was visiting Houston, so we've heard all about Texas barbecue. Where do you recommend we go? And I was stumped. Tell me kind of what you like or what you want, because it depends. That's great. So if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Robert: Yeah, so that's easy. I spend the first two weeks at home just being at home. You know being a dad being, you know being a husband. I think that's very, very important, boy, that would be a good vacation. Chris: Yeah. Robert: And then maybe the last two weeks I'd stay here in Texas. I go to Hill Country. Yeah, there's so many great places in Texas. It's like a whole different country really. Chris: Sure. Robert: You could go to Dallas and spend some time downtown Dallas doing some fun stuff. You could stay here in Houston and experience all kinds of interesting stuff. Or you could go to Austin, go to Hill Country. It's just the dynamic is incredible. Chris: Couldn't agree more, so I'd stay here close to home. I travel enough. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well, Robert:, thank you again for agreeing to be a guest. I loved hearing your story and what you're doing at World View and the team that you all have there. So thanks again. Robert: Absolutely, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Chris. Special Guest: Robert Grosz.

Robert Kiyosaki: Los ricos tienen miedo cuando yo hablo y dicen "No se los digas, Robert" "No les digas lo que tú sabes. Mantenlos pobres."

Today's episode of The Skylark Bell was made in collaboration with The Haunted UK podcast. It is a little different than what you've become used to at The Skylark Bell; it is recorded in Audio Drama format as a phone call between two characters, and features an introduction and voice acting by the host of The Haunted UK podcast. Fair warning, this episode may also be slightly scarier than a typical episode of The Skylark Bell.Story and Script by The Haunted UKFind The Haunted UK podcast's 2021 Halloween Special here *We suggest listening to this FIRST*: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0bvnvqkUCIxmFA2DWuomp2?si=f4LImIeoTJ6zKeMJa6WUlgFind The Haunted UK podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hauntedukpodcast/The Skylark Bell is brought to you by: Phaeton Starling Publishing and Things with Wings Productions.The Skylark Bell official website - http://www.theskylarkbell.comThe Skylark Bell on Instagram: @theskylarkbellAuthor/Producer: Melissa Oliveri - http://www.melissaoliveri.comJoin Melissa's Patreon for early access to podcast episodes, music downloads, and more: http://www.patreon.com/melissaoliveriMelissa on Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@melissaoliveriAll music by Cannelle: http://www.cannellemusic.comCannelle on Instagram: @cannelle.musicOfficial Merch Shops: http://www.melissaoliveri.com/storeFULL TRANSCRIPT:Things with Wings productions presents – A Special episode of The Skylark Bell, in collaboration with The Haunted UK Podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Oliveri.Before you begin this episode, I strongly suggest you hit pause, and go visit The Haunted UK podcast's 2021 Halloween Special episode, the link is in the show notes. It is a fantastic episode retelling a story that will give you chills. Then, come back here for an epilogue of sorts... Now, today's episode of The Skylark Bell is a little different than what you're used to, as it is recorded in Audio Drama format as a phone call between two characters, and features an introduction and voice acting by the host of The Haunted UK. This episode may also be slightly scarier than a typical episode of The Skylark Bell.Alright, you've been warned! Now go grab a blanket and a warm drink, and let's get started.Halloween 2021 saw the Haunted UK Podcast publish a bonus episode which told the unbelievable story of an author and his terrifying experience with something completely out of the ordinary. Going by the name of Robert Crawford, this individual tried to gain some sort of normality back into his life...but those experiences on an isolated farm in England's Peak District would continue to haunt him every minute of every day.Little by little Robert's life began to fall apart because of the impact of what he'd witnessed, and also the fact that Gwen and Bernie knew where he lived. He had no idea what had happened to both of them after he left the farm on that final fateful night.... did they both get out of the tunnels under the barn... or did they die down there?? Every day was a waiting game.... would someone come looking for him to make sure that he never spoke of what he saw?Just how long had the existence of this bloodline of creatures been kept secret, and how many actually knew about what was going on at the farm. Maybe it was paranoia, but since the events witnessed by Robert Crawford had happened, he began to record his phone calls and document any events which he felt were strange.From his diary notes he mentioned a number of times that he felt that he was being followed, but never actually saw anyone. He also says that his house phone would ring a number of times every day, but nobody would speak... there would just be light breathing. Was this someone from the farm, or was it someone else entirely? Crawford would have his phone disconnected and would then rely completely on his iPhone, which few people had the number for.What you are about to hear is a telephone conversation which allegedly took place a few months ago. The audio file for this conversation was on a USB drive which had been posted in a padded envelope. We've taken the liberty of re-recording this conversation to protect those involved and to also keep the real name of the farm under wraps. There was also a written note enclosed which simply read "Seek out the Book of Aldaraia".After a little bit of digging regarding the book mentioned in the note, the Book of Aldaraia is also known as the Book of Soyga....or The Book That Kills. It's not known who actually wrote this book, but it was part of the extensive library of John Dee until his death in 1608. Legend has it that a medium by the name of Edward Kelley was used by John Dee to help translate the book, which was mostly in Latin, in 1582.Kelley offered John Dee the chance to speak to the Archangel Uriel to help him decode the most mysterious sections of the book, which are around 40,000 seemingly randomly distributed letters. Not satisfied with the secrets of magic, divination, spells, incantations, and details regarding demonology already discovered within the book, John Dee wanted the key to unlock the code within these characters. When he asked Kelley to instruct the Archangel Uriel to give up the code he refused, telling him that only the Archangel Michael could truly decode and translate the full potential of the book.... and that wasn't something that was going to happen. The contents were just too dangerous.So, what mysterious powers lay behind these layers of random letters? It's still unknown today, but John Dee devoted his entire life trying to crack this code and upon his death in 1608, the book went missing... until 1994. Where had it been? What was it used for, and what did it have to do with what went on at the farm? The book resides in the British Library to this day.Here is the phone conversation, make of it what you will...(iPhone rings and Robert Crawford answers.)Robert: Hello (short period of silence)...Hello...Laura:  Is this Robert Crawford??Robert: Ermm..who's asking?Laura:  My name is Laura Arden....I work at the Natural History Museum in London...in the Department of Medieval and Latter Antiquities...so sorry to call so late, but I was wondering if you could help me out with something?Robert: Sorry, but how did you get this number? Are you American??Laura: Canadian actually....ummm...well, a little research and access to some databases and I managed to find you. You're a really difficult guy to track down considering you're an author.Robert: Well, I prefer to keep as much of my life as private as possible. What is it you wanted again?Laura: I just needed to ask you a few questions about something that I think you may be able to help with......you can look me up online at the museum if you like....Robert: No, no,...there's no need for that. I just don't get many phone calls nowadays, that's all.Laura: So....do you think you could help me out??Robert: ..Sure, yes, I'll try my best....This isn't about a book signing is it??Laura:  No, no, no....although I have read a couple of your books, but no....I was wondering if you'd be kind enough to help me get to the bottom of something that I found while I was on vacation...it may have something to do with you.Robert: I suppose so...but I'm not sure how much help I'm going to be, but fire awayLaura:  Ok...bit of a strange question for starters, but do you have any interest in the occult...witchcraft...black magic...things like that?Robert: Well if you say you've read a few of my books then you'll know that I sometimes dabble in those topics....look, what's this about exactly, and how can this have anything to do with me??Laura:  Well it's not just about something that I found, but more about the location it was found in....and I think you can give me some valuable information about this location.Robert: Ok, look it's late and I don't want to come across as being rude, but can you just get to the point please??Laura:  Ok...fair enough.....Have you ever been to Manor Ridge Farm Mr Crawford??(a long silence)Laura:  Hello??...Mr Crawford...Hello??...are you still there??Robert: Yeah..I'm still here....how do you know that name??Laura:  Have you been there...or not Mr Crawford?Robert: Look, there's nothing I can help you with Laura...it's been lovely talking to you but I have things to...(Laura cuts in)Laura: (more forcefully now) HAVE YOU BEEN THERE OR NOT???Robert: ....yes...I was there around a year ago.Laura:  Good...now we're getting somewhere. So what circumstance led you to Manor Ridge Farm??Robert: In all honesty...I had writers block while I was working my next book. I needed a change of scenery...something to snap me back in to focus. I found a cottage for rent on the farm and hired it. The different views, the atmosphere, the clean air...it was supposed to help but....well...it didn't.Laura:  So what happened??Robert: Hold on...how do you even know I was there? Are you working with the police or something?Laura:  Police???..no..it's..it's nothing like that. As I said..I was on vacation and found something.Robert: So why don't you enlighten me as to what you've found...and why were YOU up at that farm??Laura:  I was on a week long hiking vacation in the Peak District. I planned to get as many of the trails under my belt as possible...same as you, take in the views, absorb the atmosphere...get away from the city. I'm not really someone who enjoys being in other people's back pockets if you know what I mean? I prefer my own company at times and this vacation was one that I was going to go on alone.Robert: So you came across the farm as a place to stay??Laura:  Yes...but not because I'd organised it. Weather had turned bad, and it was getting late. I was literally in the middle of nowhere in the pouring rain and it was getting dark. I saw a farmhouse with lights on in the distance so I headed towards it. The owners told me that they didn't take in visitors...don't get me wrong, they weren't nasty...far from it, they were really helpful. They told me that Manor Ridge Farm had a cottage that they hired out, I should head there and see if they could help, so I did.Robert: So you make your way to the farm....then what?Laura:  Well, I got to the main house and I saw a cottage opposite a barn further up the driveway, so, assuming that this was the place, I knocked on the door and was greeted by a woman...I'd say she was in her fifties...maybe sixties...had a patch covering one eye. She introduced herself as Gwen and seemed friendly enough. When I asked about the cottage she was more than happy to help, but something seemed off....I didn't know what it was at the time...but something just didn't seem right.Robert: Was there anyone else in the Farm House...a man maybe...or outside??Laura:  I never saw anyone other than Gwen...anyway, she said that the cottage hadn't been let out for a while so was in a bit of a mess, but I was welcome to stay the night if I wanted. Well, there was no way that I was going to stay out in the rain overnight, so I jumped at the chance. She gave me the key and walked up to the cottage with me and quickly showed me around...that's when she started to make me feel uncomfortable.Robert: In what way? What did she do?Laura:  She just suddenly said that she needed to go, and I was to stay in the cottage and not come out until morning. She said that many people had gone missing in the area because they didn't know the hills and the weather...it was just really creepy. Anyway, she just took off towards the barn and I thought that was strange because the weather was getting really bad...why not go back to the house?Robert: You didn't go back out there did you??Laura:  No, not right away...I wanted to get out of my wet clothes, get changed and get warm. I had a few chocolate bars in my pack, but was really hungry so I started to hunt around to see if there were any cans of soup or something like that to eat...but there wasn't anything....so that's when I decided to go down to the farm house.Robert: I can't believe you went back out there...especially down to the house. If you've managed to track me down and link me to that place then surely you know something of what went on there...if not...why are you calling?Laura:  I'm getting to that....so...I went down to the main house, and by this time it was dark, pouring with rain and the wind was really getting strong. As I got to the front door, I noticed it was wide open...so I stepped inside and called out for Gwen...but there was no answer...and then the smell hit me...a kind of blood-like metallic smell. I went into the kitchen and....well it looked like something had been torn to pieces. It was definitely an animal...but that was all I could make out. I began to feel sick and knew that I had to get out of there as quickly as possible...and that's when I saw the book on the floor.Robert: Book!!! What book?? You hung around because of a book??Laura:  This wasn't any ordinary book Robert...from the markings on the front of the leather cover I knew it was old...so I grabbed it and ran for the front door. I took a look around, didn't see anyone so then ran for the cottage and locked myself inside.Robert: Why didn't you phone the police?? Why didn't you.....no signal....you didn't have a phone signal did you?Laura:  No...my phone was the first thing I checked when I'd locked the front door. I was trapped there until the morning and there was no way that I was going back down to the main house after what I'd seen.Robert: Well at least you were safe for the time being...when I was there I wasn't so lucky. It was Bernie who came for me with a....well...that's in the past now. So what was so special about this book?Laura:  At the Museum we have archives of extremely old, rare and precious books...bibles, authors first volumes, writings from kings and queens of the past...and books about the occult...the supernatural...black magic...witchcraft. Some of these books go back to at least the 1500's and their contents are still considered by some to be highly dangerous...but this book was more than just a book...it was a diary. A diary of generations of individuals who had been blessed by a specific bloodline.Robert: Blessed!!! I don't think you realise exactly what you were dealing with there Laura. What I saw at that farm challenged every single thing that I thought was pure and simple fiction...what I encountered, firsthand, wasn't something that was blessed...it was something that every man, woman and child should only encounter in their nightmares...but there it was...right in front of me...and it was being protected...coverted...aloud to exist.Laura:  But yours was an accidental encounter Robert....if you hadn't discovered that cave system then none of this would have happened...(Robert cuts in)Robert: How do you know about the cave??? Who told you about that?? Is my name in that book??Laura:  Yes, it is, everything that happened over the time period that you were at the farm was recorded, first by Bernie, then by Gwen. I'm assuming that you know what happened to Bernie after you left them both locked up in the tunnels under the barn?Robert: You make this sound like all of this was intentional...as if I wanted this to happen. Do you know what this whole experience did to me? It left me alone...I lost my partner...my publishing deal...my confidence...my life. I hardly leave the house, never socialise. I'll tell you what I think happened to Bernie shall I? Bernie was murdered by whatever that thing was that Gwen turned into...but if I say what I know it is...then it makes it real...and it can't be. It just can't be. When I was taken down into the tunnels by Bernie, at gunpoint might I add, I was never supposed to come back out...it was only down to chance and luck that I made it out alive....so...I ask you again...why do you need my help?Laura:  I'm so sorry Robert....I never meant to make you feel that way. What you went through was horrific, but here we both are...armed with the experiences and facts that prove that what was only considered to be something from folklore...is in fact real...I can't quite believe that I'm actually saying this myself...but it's true. If I were to go to my head of department with this book and this story.... they'd have me committed...but you've seen these things...you're the only one who knows what Gwen really is....a Werewolf...a Lycanthrope...a shapeshifter.Robert: STOP!!! Stop....please....I can't help you....I've tried desperately for the last 12 months to try and forget what happened but it's impossible. If I had the chance I'd go back to the farm and simply kill Gwen and put an end to all of it....but I can't...I can't go back there.Laura:  Listen...I get it...I really do, but there are far more people at risk now. As mad as all of this sounds it was Bernie that kept the lid on all of this by knowing when to take Gwen down to the tunnels to lock her away when the condition started to take over. Reading in the book, Bernie had documented that Gwen had escaped a number of times and attacked animals on the hills...she almost made it to the village one time....(Robert Interupts)Robert: I know!!!...Bernie explained all of this. He told me that it was him that used to take her down there to feed...to isolate her away from others...to protect her. But Bernie isn't there anymore...so who's locking her away now when she needs to feed...who's protecting her now?? Why haven't we had headlines in the newspapers of some rampant wild animal attacking people on the hills and in the villages?Laura:  Because she's doing it herself. Gwen had written entries into the book stating that after she had woken from the last transformation in the caves, she found that she'd killed Bernie....ripped him apart. She managed to find her way out of the tunnels via the cave system that you found the entrance to up on the hillside. She had to wait until darkness to make her way back to the house where she cleaned herself up, opened the trap door in the barn, and took care of Bernie's body. Then she waited...waited to see if you, the police, or both would turn up...but nothing.Robert: Who was I supposed to tell? Who was going to believe a story like that...you?? It's only after you've read that book that you finally realise what's actually out there...but all you're basing your opinion on is my testimony and what's written down. All of this could be lie...you haven't actually seen it...have you?Laura:  .....yes....I have.Robert: But you said that you locked yourself away in the cottage after you came from the house...did you go back out??Laura:  Yes...I had to....Robert: What do you mean you had to??? What happened??Laura:  I'd made sure that everything was locked up tight after what I'd seen in the farmhouse, and I'd bedded down in the living room on the couch. I grabbed the book I'd found and started to leaf through it.... I couldn't believe what I was reading, there were details of ancient ceremonies, symbols, potions and treatments that had been passed down from generation to generation over the span of hundreds and hundreds of years.... all with the same one goal: to rid the beast from within, to cure the condition. It seems that no one actually knows where this bloodline started, but in a passage from the late 1900's written by a man named Harold Thomas Anderson, he mentions a cave system in Romania where he was due to travel to find the "Primal". Whether this was a person or a creature isn't confirmed....and there are no other entries from this man in the book, but he was definitely part of the bloodline. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. So, I'm lying on the couch when I begin to hear something moving from outside of the rear of the cottage, as if someone was bumping into stuff and knocking it over.Robert: Did you see what what it was??Laura:  Not at first no. I ran upstairs and looked out of one of the rear bedroom windows, but I couldn't see anything. I initially put it down to the wind and rain, until I heard a loud screaming sound. This wasn't the sound a human would make, it sounded animalistic...guttural...as if something was in terrible pain. It sounded as if it was coming from outside the front of the cottage this time, so I ran across the landing and into the master bedroom and peered out of the window....and I saw it....it was Gwen....she was naked, crawling across the floor of the barn trying to get to an opening in the floor....but as I watched I could see hair growing, slowly covering her body...joints bending in ways that seemed impossible....more screams pierced the air as the process continued....then it happened.Robert: What happened??Laura:  She saw me, she looked straight at me.Robert: Oh my god....what did you do??Laura: At first, I was completely frozen to the spot. Both of our stares fixed at one another; mine terrified, hers furious, full of rage. Her eyes looked black, and her face was... it was changing... changing right in front of me. She then rose herself up onto all fours and started to walk towards the cottage. I've never felt fear like that in my life, watching something like that slowly walking over to the place that you hope will keep you safe, but knowing that it will never be a match for it.Robert: Jesus Laura....I can remember knives being in the kitchen. Did you manage to get hold of something to try and defend yourself with?Laura:  Yes...one of the knives. I figured that she was either going to try and get through the front or back door, so I ran downstairs and pushed the large wooden dresser across the back door to try and buy me some time...then I went to the front door and looked out of the window. I couldn't see her, she was out there somewhere but I couldn't see her. Then something hit the back door and I heard glass shatter. I quickly closed the living room door and pushed the couch up against it, not that it would have provided much resistance against her, but it went quiet again.I stood up against the front door with tears starting to stream down my face. I was mentally broken....I couldn't believe the situation that I'd found myself in, and I couldn't see how I was going to get myself out of it. I couldn't call my mom and dad to tell them that I loved them...to hear their voices...to have that comfort...I was going to die here...and there wasn't anything that anyone could do to help me.Suddenly there was a huge bang at the front door, so powerful that the door frame moved. I pushed back at the door screaming for her to go away. Another bang came and it was clear that the door wasn't going to last long. I pushed as hard as I could and gripped the knife, readying myself to use it if I had to. Then another huge blow came against the door and it finally buckled. An arm, covered in grey/black hair came around the door and grabbed my wrist and pulled my arm outside....then I felt searing pain as teeth pierced my skin and bit down hard into my arm. I screamed again louder, and pulled as hard as I could to get my arm back inside the door but it was no use....this thing was so strong. A clawed hand reached inside the door against the frame to try and push the door open. I immediately raised the knife using my other arm and plunged it into the hand.I pulled it back out to strike again but a huge scream came from her and she let go of my arm and the door closed with me falling against it and onto the floor. I sat there, back up against the door waiting for her to smash into it again and finish the job off...but there was nothing. I plucked up the courage to look out of the window but she'd vanished....I had no idea where she'd gone.Robert: How bad was your arm??Laura:  There were four deep pucture wounds and a few shallower ones. It looked worse than it actually was with all of the blood, but I needed to clean it up. I waited for what seemed like hours, but when I was pretty sure that she wasn't coming back I got hold of my back pack and my first aid kit. I used a towel from the kitchen to take care of most of the blood and then pushed the sofa back against the door. It was just a matter of a couple of hours before daylight and then I'd be gone...or so I thought.Robert: What do you mean "so you thought"....she didn't come back did she??Laura:  No...well...not exactly. I watched the sunlight fill the cottage as morning broke and I wasn't going to hang around, so I grabbed my stuff, packed my bag and got ready to get the hell out. I figured I'd go out the back way and get across the fields as quickly as I could and try to make it to a road. Hopefully I could hitchhike to a town or village from there.....but then there was a knock at the front door....it was Gwen. She asked me to open the door. She assured me that nothing would happen....but also that we needed to talk....urgently.Robert: What did you do?? Did you let her in??Laura:  I didn't have a choice. What was I going to do....stay in the cottage for the rest of my life? I opened the door, slowly at first, then wider. She could see that I had the knife in my hand and I told her that I would use again if I had to. She said there was no need....she wouldn't harm me. She reached out her hand....it was bandaged up now...and she asked for the book back. I handed it over and that's when she began to speak. She explained that the book had details of potions which could delay the effects of the condition. When her husband was around she never needed them, because he would take care of her when the urges came.It was her dog that she had killed in the farmhouse when I found all of the blood in the kitchen with the book. The hunger, as she called it, became so overwhelming that she couldn't control it and the remedy that she'd mixed was in the tunnels under the barn...that's where she was trying to get to when we saw each other. For years her and Bernie searched for a cure to stop her condition, and while she never told me how she'd become infected, she did tell me that the bloodlines stretched around the world....and all of the infected are looking for that illusive cure....and now so am I.Robert: What do you mean?? Why would you be helping her find a cure after what she did to you??Laura:  Because her bite has now infected me....and I now need to find that cure....and you're going to help me.....and Gwen....Robert: What....are you mad?? Why the hell am I going to put myself at risk yet again to help you or Gwen!! She almost killed me, and you're asking me to.....I'm sorry Laura, but even though none of what happened was your fault, you're both on your own... (silence)... Laura... Laura are you still there? Do you understand what I'm saying to you???Laura:  It's a nice part of the world you live in Robert....not many houses around....nice and quiet....Robert: What are you talking about?? How do you know where I live....are you threatening me?? I can leave here right now and you'll never find me.Laura:  I don't think so Mr Crawford....why don't you take a look outside your window....you see that silver car across your driveway? Well I've been here since this call began, and I'm not leaving until you make a decision...the right decision. And also, don't think about trying to leave using the backdoor....because there's someone you may well remember who'll be waiting for you in your garden. The hunger is getting strong Mr Crawford....and whilst Gwen and myself have a remedy that we can drink to delay the inevitable...we don't have to drink it...and you're the only one who knows what we are....and if we have to permanently silence you then we will.Robert: If you try to get in here I'll call the police.Laura:  The Police!!! What will they do to help you? You'll be dead before they even arrive. So what it's to be Robert?? Are coming back to the farm to take care of us.....or are we coming into your house to take care of you?? You've got 2 minutes to decide...and if you hang up we'll be inside before you know it. All of your questions will be answered in time, and I give you my word that you'll be safe...but you need to make the right decision...so...tick-tock, tick-tock....time is running out....To be continued.....Thank you so much for listening.  Join me next week for the last Skylark Special episode of the year, a touching story called Elliot Under Glass, and please be sure to subscribe to The Haunted UK podcast if you haven't already, the content and sound quality are unbeatable.If you enjoyed this story, please consider leaving a rating and a review, it's quick and free, and incredibly helpful in giving the podcast visibility so others can find and enjoy it.If you'd like to support my work, you can subscribe to Patreon or Ko-Fi for exclusive content and advance access to podcast episodes. You can also follow me on social media so we can stay in touch, all necessary links are in my bio.Once again, thank you for listening, On behalf of myself and The Haunted UK podcast, we wish you happy... or spooky if that's your thing... holidays.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/theskylarkbell/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Challenges, obstacles and painful experiences — these are just some of things life throws our way when we least expect them. But no matter where you are in life right now, remember that you can push past the hard times. You can learn how to rise above life’s challenges. And if you feel lost, here’s a little secret: help others. Being of service to other people can help you find strength and a way out of your problems. In this episode, Robert Joseph Cappuccio, widely known as Bobby, joins us to share his inspiring story of defying hardships and helping others. It’s easier to succumb to self-sabotage and addiction. But you have the power to make your experiences an opportunity for change and hope. Bobby also shares the importance of helping others, especially as a business owner and leader. If you want to learn how to rise above trauma and be inspired to become a force of good to the world, then this episode is for you!    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how to rise above adversities. Understand the importance of intention and knowing who you serve. Learn the difference between internal and external customers and why you need to start focusing on the former.    Resources Gain exclusive access to premium podcast content and bonuses! Become a Pushing the Limits Patron now! Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio. Connect with Bobby: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram The Self-Help Antidote podcast by Bobby Cappuccio PTA Global The You Project Podcast by Craig Harper The Psychology of Winning: Ten Qualities of a Total Winner by Denis Waitley    Episode Highlights [05:49] Bobby’s Childhood Bobby was born with deformities. He was adopted by a man who had cancer.  After Bobby’s adoptive father passed, his adoptive mother entered a relationship with a cruel man. Bobby experienced all kinds of abuse throughout his childhood on top of having Tourette’s syndrome.  Doctors had to put him on Haldol, which damaged his brain.  Yet, Bobby shares that these painful experiences helped him resonate with others and thrive in his industry.  [12:48] How Bobby Got to Where He is Today  Bobby initially wanted to become a police officer for special victims.  He almost passed the written and psychological assessments, but there was an issue because of Tourette syndrome. At this time, he started working at a gym.  Bobby worked hard. Eventually, he caught the eye of the gym owner, Mitchell.  Mitchell became like a surrogate father and mentor to him. Listen to the full episode to hear how Mitchell shaped Bobby and put him on the path to success!   [20:31] Complications from Abuse and Empathy Some adults tried to intercede for Bobby when he was being abused as a kid. However, he avoided their help because he was scared of being harmed further. You can't just leave an abuser — it's difficult, and even simply attempting can hurt you. We should understand that abuse can affect anyone.  Confident and intelligent women may be particularly susceptible to abuse because they find themselves in a situation they didn’t expect.  [28:58] How Abuse Isolates People Abusers progressively isolate people by creating enemies out of strong alliances.  This can make someone lose their sense of self, making them more vulnerable and dependent on their abusers.  Assigning fault or blame to those being abused will not help anyone.  If anything, that stops people from coming forward.  [30:34] Help Others to Help Yourself Bobby learned how to rise above his traumas and negative emotions.  His mentor taught him to look beyond himself. It was only by helping others find a way out of their problems that Bobby found a way to help himself too.  He started to focus on helping people who were going through something similar to what he went through. [33:32] Focus on the Intention While working as a trainer, Bobby focused less on the transactional side of training and more on the transformational.  He wanted to help people find what they need at that moment and give them the support they need.  By focusing on his intention, he was able to get high rates of retention.  For Bobby, helping others means understanding their goals and wishes.  [36:12] Bobby’s Promotion Bobby’s exemplary performance led him to a promotion that he didn’t want. He was scared of disappointing Mitchell.   He did poorly in managing his team of trainers, which is when a consultant sat him down and gave him advice.  Mitchell also had Bobby stand up and speak in team meetings.  You need to know who you work for and who you serve. When your perspective is aligned with your work, you will bring that to every meeting and interaction.  Are you taking care of the people you need to be responsible for? Hear how Bobby figured out his answer in the full episode!  [43:14] Lessons on Leadership Companies often adopt a top-down mentality where bosses need to be followed. However, a company should not be like this. Companies are made up of people. Your business needs to care for your valuable customers, both internal and external.  Treat your team members with the same level of tenacity, sincerity and intention as your external customers. You can accomplish a lot if you hire the right person, set clear expectations and understand each individual’s motivations. Through these, you can develop the team’s capacity and channel it towards a common vision. [51:19] On Recruiting the Right People David Barton hired Bobby to work as his head of training.  Bobby asked David what two things Bobby should do to contribute the most to the company. David wanted Bobby to be a connoisseur of talent and to train them, train them and train them again.  Bobby brought this mindset throughout his career, and it’s served him well. Don’t be afraid to hire people who are smarter than you.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘When you know that there's somewhere you want to go, but you don't know exactly where that is. And you don't have complete confidence in your ability to get there. And what a good guy does is they help you go just as far as you can see.’ ‘We form and calibrate and shape our sense of identity in the context in which we navigate through the world off of one another. And when you're isolated with a distorted sense of reality, and you lose your sense of self, you become highly incapacitated to take action in this situation.’ ‘So I started focusing on things and a mission and people outside of myself. Who's going through something similar to what I have gone through, even if it's not precisely the same situation? How do I help them find their way out? And by helping them find their way out, I found my way up.’ ‘I never saved anyone; you can't change anyone but yourself. But the reason why he called me that is anytime someone would think about joining the gym...I approached it from a transformational perspective.’ ‘And your job is to create and keep your internal customer by serving them with at the very least with the same tenacity, sincerity and intention that you are serving your external customer. If you don't do that, you're going to be shit as a leader.’ ‘I think the only people who don't have impostor syndrome are imposters. Because if you're fraudulent, you wouldn't engage in the level of self-honesty, and humility, and conscientiousness, to go, “Am I fraudulent; is there something that I’m missing?”’ ‘Anything I've ever accomplished, it's totally through other people. It's because I hired people that were a lot smarter than me.’   About Robert Robert Joseph Cappuccio, or Bobby, is a behaviour change coach, author, consultant, speaker and fitness professional. He is a trainer of trainers and at the forefront of the life-altering and ever-evolving industry of coaching.  For over two decades, he has been advocating and pushing the industry-wide and individual shift of perspective in development. Behaviour change is rooted in a holistic approach, not just goals to health and fitness. With his vision, he co-founded PTA Global. It has now become a leader in professional fitness development.  No matter how successful Bobby seems, it didn't start this way. His childhood was filled with neglect, abuse and traumas that could lead anyone on the path to drinking and addiction. Bobby is no stranger to hardship and challenges, but he uses these experiences to connect and relate to others, using his past hardship as a way to help others. Bobby is also the former head of training and development at David Barton Gym, former director of professional development at the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM), content curator for PTontheNet, development consultant for various companies including Hilton Hotels, Virgin Active, Equinox, David Lloyd Leisure and multiple businesses nationally and abroad.  With his forward-thinking mindset and work ethic, Bobby champions practical programs that help both corporate and industry personnel, including individuals, get what they truly want. He advocates the process of change mixed in with the mantra of ‘you can be free to play’.  Interested in Bobby’s work? You can check out his website and listen to his Self-Help Antidote Podcast! Reach out to Bobby on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends to offer them one way to rise above their trauma. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing the Limits, your host Lisa Tamati here, and today I have a fantastic guest all the way from America again, this man goes by the name of Bobby Cappuccio. And he is a world-famous fitness professional. He trains a lot of the trainers that are out there. But Bobby has an incredible story that I really want to share with you today. So, Bobby was born with a severe facial deformity. And he also had deformed legs, and he was given up for adoption. His mother couldn't care for him, and he ended up being adopted by another man. But he had a very, very abusive rough childhood. He also developed Tourette Syndrome at the age of nine. In all this adversity you'd think like ‘oh my gosh, what sort of a life is this guy going to live’? But Bobby has had an incredible life. He's a fitness professional, as I said, he's worked in many gyms. He was the founder and co-owner of PTA Global, which does a lot of the professional fitness development. And he has devised his own strategies and ways of educating people. And his programs are just second to none. When I told my business partner, Neil, that I just interviewed Bobby Cappuccio, he's like, ‘Oh, my God, he's a legend in the space.’ So yeah, he was really a bit jealous that I got to speak to him. So I hope you enjoy this interview. It's some rough topics in there. But there's also some really great gems of wisdom. And the funny thing is what Bobby is just absolutely hilarious as well. So I do hope you enjoy it. Before we head over to the show, though, just want to let you know that we've launched a premium membership for the podcast. This is a patron membership so that you can become a VIP member of our tribe, help support the podcast. This podcast has been going now for five and a half years. It's a labour of love, I can tell you. It takes up a huge amount of my time and resources in both getting these world-class gifts for you, and also in study and research so that I can talk really, and interview very well all these crazy, amazing doctors, scientists, elite athletes and performers. So if you want to support us in keeping the show going, and like what we do in the world, and you want to keep those valuable content being able to be put out into the world, we'd love your support. And for that, we're going to give you lots of member, premium member, benefits. So, check it out at patron.lisatamati.com. That’s patron.lisatamati.com. That’s P-A-T-R-O-N dot Lisa Tamati dot com. And I just also wanted to remind you about my new anti-ageing and longevity supplement, NMN. I’ve co-worked together with molecular biologist, Dr. Elena Seranova, to make sure that you get the best quality NMN there is now. I searched all over the world for this stuff, when I learned about it, and researched about it, and how it works and what it does in the body, and there is a huge amount of science on it. A lot of it's up on our website, if you want to do a deep dive into all things NMN and the NAD precursor, then check it out. It's all about longevity. It's all about slowing down the ageing process and even reversing the ageing process. So if that's something that interests you, and you want high performance, you want help with cardiovascular health, with neuro protection, with metabolic disorders, then this is something that you should look into as well. So check that out at nmnbio.nz, that’s nmnbio.nz, and go and check that out. The supplements have been so popular that I haven't been able to keep up with orders. So on some of the orders, there is a bit of a backorder. But bear with me while we will scale up production. But go over and check that out at nmnbio.nz. Right over to the show with Bobby Cappuccio. Lisa: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today I have another very, very special guest and I was recently on this gentleman's show and now we're doing a reverse interview. I have Robert Cappuccio with me. Robert, welcome to the show. Robert Cappuccio: Oh, thank you. When you say you had a very special guest, I thought you were bringing someone else on. Lisa: You are a really special guest. Robert: Had a lot of anticipation like who is this person? What a surprise! Lisa: Well, you're a bit of an interesting character. Let's say that, throw that. Robert: Just the microphone. Lisa: No, I'm really, really interested to hear your story and to share your story with my audience, and to give a bit more of a background on you. And share gems of wisdom from your learnings from your life, because you've done some pretty cool stuff. You've had some pretty hard times and I'd like to share those learnings with my audience today. So Robert, whereabouts are you sitting at the moment, whereabouts are you in the States? Robert: Okay, so at the moment, I'm in a place called Normal Heights, which is probably a misnomer. It's not normal at all. But it's a really cool, funky neighbourhood in San Diego. Lisa: San Diego, awesome. And how’s lockdown going over there, and all of that sort of carry on? Robert: Oh, it’s great. I mean, on St. Patty's day, I've got my skull from our own green. I've just had a few whiskies. So far, so good. Lisa: This is a very interesting interview. So can you give us a little bit of background? Because you've had a very interesting, shall we say, difficult upbringing and childhood. And I wanted to perhaps start there and then see where this conversation goes a little. Robert: Is there any place you want to start, in particular? How far back do you want to go? Do you want to start from the very beginning? Lisa: Please go right at the very beginning, because you're intro to your backstory is quite interesting from the beginning, really isn't that? Robert: Okay, so I was born, which is obvious, in Manhattan, and I moved to Brooklyn early. So I was born, rather deformed. I was born with a significant facial deformity. And my lower extremities, my legs, quite never— like, if you saw my legs now, they're great. I have a great pair of legs at this moment. I'm not going to show you that because that would be a little bit rude. But my legs were kind of deformed and contorted. I had to walk with braces for the first couple of years of my life. I was given up for adoption. I'm not exactly sure, I have the paperwork on why I was given up for adoption, but I'm not really certain about the authenticity of that story. And I wasn't adopted for a while. So as an infant, I was parentless and homeless and really not well-tended to. I'm not going to get into why I say that because it's pretty disgusting. And then I was adopted. And then my adoptive father, this is kind of interesting, he had cancer, and he knew during the adoption process that he was probably not going to make it. He wanted to make sure that I found a home because nobody wanted to adopt me. Because when they came in, I was physically deformed. It's like, ‘Oh, this baby’s, it's broken. Something's wrong. Do you have a better baby’? And when he saw that, he thought, ‘Right, I've got to give this kid a home.’ So he passed. He passed when I was two. I didn't know him for more than a few months. And I hardly have any memory of him at all. My mother who adopted me, to be fair, she's developmentally disabled, and so she was a single uom with not a lot of skills, not a lot of prospects, terrified. And she basically, I think she met a guy when I was five, who I don't know if there's a diagnosis for him. He was mentally disturbed. He was a psychopath. I don't know if clinically he’s a psychopath, but that's pretty much how it felt. Lisa: You were a child experiencing this. Yeah. Robert: Yeah, I'm not like, I'm never sure in what direction to go with stuff like this. Never sure what’s valid, what's relevant. I spent my childhood in stressed positions, being woken up in the middle of the night with a pillow over my face, having bones broken consistently, and a series of rape, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and just every sort of trauma. Like imagine when I was nine years old, I was diagnosed, on top of that, with Tourette Syndrome. So I was physically deformed, going through shit like that at home. And then on top of it, I started losing control of my bodily functions. I started exhibiting tics, I started exhibiting obsessive compulsive behaviour. At some point, it was uncontrollable, like lack of control of my impulses, of the things that I would say, vulgarity. At some point, the doctors just thought that perhaps I was Scottish. Lisa: And you’re funny as well. Robert: And they put me on Haldol, which damaged my brain. That and the fact that, it's estimated, I've had at least over a half a dozen major concussions within my childhood — Lisa: From the abuse. Robert: — half a dozen to a dozen massive concussions. Yeah. Lisa: Absolute horrific start into life. Robert: When I was 10, I started binge drinking. And I thought this will help, this is a solution. But you know what? It's not. It's a little bit weird when you start a story off like this, because in some sense, it's not me being delusional, or Pollyanna, because I tend to think that I'm a little bit of a realist, sometimes too much, sometimes to the point of walking a fine edge between being hopeful and being a cynic. But I have to say that a lot of things that I experienced when I was growing up, turned out to be quite beneficial. It’s shaped me in a way and it helped me engage in certain career paths and certain activities that I don't think I really would have sought out, had this stuff not happened. So it's not like me, delusionally trying to create like all silver lining about stuff, it was shit. I understand the severity of what I went through. But I also understand where that led me. And I understand the good fortune that I had of running into certain people that resonated with me, and I resonated with them, largely in part because of my history. I don't think I would have related to these people had I not come from where I came from. Lisa: So you’re talking like people along the way that were, ended up being mentors, or teachers or friends or helping you out and through these horrific situations? Is that what you're meaning, sort of thing that would actually helped you? Because I mean, given a background like that, if you were a complete disaster and drug addict, and whatever, nobody would blame you.  You didn't have a good start in life, whatsoever. I mean, look at you now. Obviously you don't have any facial deformities, and you don't exhibit, right now, any of that stuff that actually you were and have been through. So how the hell did you get to where you are today? Because you're a very successful person, you have a very successful and a very strong influence in the world. What, how the heck do you go from being that kid, with brain problems and concussions and Tourette’s and abuse and rape and all of that, to being the person who comes across as one, number one, hilarious, very crazy and very cool?  How the heck do you get from there to there? Lisa: Just listening to, I can tell that you're someone who's highly intelligent, perceptive and an amazing judge of humour. So thank you for that. I think a lot of it was quite accidental. So I had thought when I was younger, that I wanted to be a police officer, originally. And I wanted to be involved with special victims, even before that was a TV show. Brilliant show, by the way, one of my favourite shows on TV. But even before that was the TV show, I thought, if I'm going through what I went through, and it's very hard because I had Child Services in New York City, they were called ACS. They were at my house consistently. But the problem is, I believed at a young age that my stepfather was nearly invincible, like nobody could touch him. Lisa: You were powerless against him. Yeah. Robert: And when they came to the house and like, look, I had broken bones, my arm was in a sling. A lot of times, I broke my tibia. They won't take me to the hospital because they thought they would suspect stepdad of doing it. I couldn't even walk. And these people were sitting down, said, ‘Well just tell us what happened.’ And I somehow knew that, at a critical moment, my adopted mother would falter. She would not have my back. She would rescind on everything she says. Lisa: She was frightened too, no doubt. Robert: She was frightened. I don't think she had the emotional or intellectual capacity to deal with the situation. That's all I'll say on that. But I knew once they left, I just knew they couldn't do anything, unless I was all-in. And if anything went wrong, he would kill me. So I would have to just say that, ‘Well, I fell.’ And it’s like, there's no way a fork, like I would go into camp and I would have stab wounds in the shape of a fork. And people are like, ‘What happened?’ And I said, ‘I was walking, and I tripped, and I fell onto a fork that went through my thigh and hit my femur.’ It's like, okay, that's just not possible. But I kind of knew. And I kind of felt like nobody's coming to the rescue. And I thought, if I was a police officer, and I was worked with special victims, maybe I could be the person that I always wished would show up for me. But then, there were issues with that. So I think I got like, out of a possible 100 on the police test. I did fairly well. I think I got 103, there were master credit questions. And I thought, right, yeah, I'm going. And then I took the psychological and by some weird measure, I passed, that seems crazy to me now. It kind of seems problematic. I think they need to revisit that. But then when I took the medical, and with Tourette's, it was kind of like, ‘Ah, yeah.’ It was a sticking point. So I had to petition because otherwise I would be disqualified from the employment police department. And during that time, I started working in the gyms. And when I was working the gyms, I kind of thought, there's no way I'll ever be as intelligent as some of these other trainers here. I'm just going to make up with work ethic what I lack in intellect. I would run around and just tried to do everything I could. I would try to clean all the equipment, make sure that the gym was spotless. But again, kind of like not like having all my wits about me, I would be spraying down a machine with WD-40. And what I didn't account for is, the person who was on the machine next to me, I'd be spraying him in the face with WD-40 when he was exercising. Lisa: They still do that today, by the way. The other day in the gym and the girl next to me, she was blind, and she was just spraying it everywhere. I had to go and shift to the other end of the gym, is that right, cause I don't like that stuff. Robert: I mean, in my defence, the members were very well-lubricated. And so, people would go upstairs, and like there is this fucking trainer just sprayed me in the face. And the owner would say, ‘All right, let me see who this guy is. What do you talk? This doesn’t even make sense? Who hired this guy?’ We kind of had like the old bowl, the pin. And like you could walk up top and look down into the weight room, and there I was just running around. And there was something about someone running around and hustling on the gym floor that made him interested. He's like, ‘Get this kid up into my office. Let me talk to him.’ And that forged a friendship. I spoke to him yesterday, by the way. So we've been friends for like three decades. And the owner of the gym became kind of like a surrogate dad. And he did for me what most guides do and that is when you know that there's somewhere you want to go, but you don't know exactly where that is, and you don't have complete confidence in your ability to get there. And what a good guy does is they help you go just as far as you can see, because when you get there, you'll see further. And that's what Mitchell did for me. And he was different because I have a lot of adults. So I grew up with not only extreme violence in the home, but I grew up in Coney Island. I grew up living on the corner of Shit Street and Depressing. And there was a constant violence outside the home and in school and I got picked on. And I got bullied until I started fighting, and then I got into a lot of fights. And you just have these adults trying to talk to you and it's like, you don't fucking know me. You have no idea where I come from. You can't relate to me. When you were growing up, you had a home, you were being fed. You were kind of safe, don't even pretend to relate to me. And he was this guy, who, he was arrested over a dozen times by age 30, which was not why I chose him as a mentor. But he had gone through some serious shit. And when he came out on the other end of it, he wanted to be somebody other than his history would suggest he was going to be, and he tried harder at life than anybody I had ever met. So one, I could relate to him, I didn't think he was one of these adults who are just full of shit. I was impressed at how hard he tried to be the person he wanted to be. So there was this mutual respect and affinity, instantly. Lisa: Wow. And he had a massive influence. And we all need these great coaches, mentors, guides, surrogate dads, whatever the case may be, to come along, sometimes in our lives. And when they do, how wonderful and special that is, and someone that you could respect because like you say, I've had a wonderful childhood. In comparison to you, it was bloody Disneyland, and so I cannot relate to some of those things. And I have my own little wee dramas, but they were minor in comparison to what you experienced in the world. So how the heck can I really help you out if you're a young kid that I'm trying to influence. And not that you have to go through everything in order to be of help to anybody, but just having that understanding that your view, your worldview is a limited, privileged background. Compared to you, my background is privileged. Robert: Well, I don't think there's any ‘compared to you’. I think a lot of my reaction to adults around me who tried to intercede — one, if your intercession doesn't work, it's going to get me hurt, bad, or it's going to get me killed. There have been times where I was hung out of an 18-storey window by my ankles. Lisa: You have got to be kidding me. Robert: Like grabbing onto the brick on the side of the building. I can't even say terrified. I don't even know if that encapsulates that experience as a kid. But it's like you don't understand what you can walk away from once you feel good about interceding with this poor, unfortunate kid. I cannot walk away from the situation that you're going to create. So it was defensive mechanism, because pain is relative. I mean, like, you go through a divorce, and you lose this love and this promise, and somebody comes along, ‘Oh there are some people in the world who never had love, so you should feel grateful’. You should fuck off because that's disgusting. And that is totally void of context. I don't think somebody's pain needs to compare to another person's pain in order to be relevant. I think that was just my attitude back then because I was protecting my existence. I've really changed that perspective because, like, my existence isn't threatened day to day anymore. Lisa: Thank goodness. Robert: So I have a different take on that. And I understand that these adults were well meaning, because I also had adults around me, who could have probably done something, but did nothing. And I don't even blame them because my stepfather was a terrifying person. And the amount of work and energy, and the way the laws, the structure, and how threatening he was, I don't blame them. And me? I’ll probably go to prison. But I don't blame them for their inaction. Lisa: Yeah, and this is a problem. Just from my own experiences, like I said, this is not even in childhood, this is in young adulthood, being in an abusive relationship. The dynamic of the stuff that's going on there, you're frightened to leave. You know you are going to be in physical danger if you try and leave. So, I've been in that sort of a position but not as a child. But still in a position where people will think, ‘Well, why don't you just go?’ And I’m just like, ‘Have you ever tried to leave someone who's abusive? Because it's a very dangerous thing to do.’ And you sometimes you’re like, just, you can't, if there's children involved, even, then that's even worse. And there's complicated financial matters. And then there's, whatever the case may be or the circumstances that you're facing, it's not cut and dried. And as an adult, as a powerful woman now, I wouldn't let myself be in a position like that. But I wasn't that back then. And you weren't because well, you were a child. See, you're even more. Robert: I just want to comment on that a little bit. And this is not coming from clinical expertise. This is just coming from my own interpretation experience. I think, obviously, that when a child goes through this, you would think, ‘Okay, if this started at age five, what could you have done?’ But a lot of times we do look at, let's say, women who are in severe domestic violence situations, and we say, ‘Well, how could you have done that? How could you have let somebody do that to you’? And I think we need to really examine that perspective. Because powerful, confident, intelligent women might be especially susceptible. Lisa: Apparently, that’s the case. Robert: Because you have a track record, and you have evidence to support that you are capable, and you're intelligent, and you find yourself in a situation that you didn't anticipate. And I think it's easier to gaslight someone like that. Because it's like, ‘How could I have had a lapse — is it me?’  And it creeps up on you, little by little, where you doubt yourself a little bit more, a little bit more, and then you become more controlled and more controlled. And then your perspective on reality becomes more and more distorted. So I think we have to be very careful when an adult finds themselves, yes, in that position, saying, ‘Well, why didn't you just leave? How could you have let yourself very easily?’ It can happen to anyone, especially if you have a strong sense of confidence and you are intelligent, and because it becomes unfathomable to you, how you got into that situation. Lisa: Looking back on my situation, which is years and years ago now, and have no consequences to the gentleman that I was involved with, because I'm sure he's moved on and hopefully, not the same. But the fact that it shifted over many years, and the control shifted, and the more isolated you became. I was living in a foreign country, foreign language, unable to communicate with my family, etc., etc. back then. And you just got more and more isolated, and the behaviour’s become more and more, more radical ways as time goes on. It doesn't stop there. Everybody's always lovely at the beginning. And then, as the power starts to shift in the relationship — and I've listened to a psychologist, I’ve forgotten her name right now, but she was talking about, she works with these highly intelligent, educated women who are going through this and trying to get out of situations where they shouldn't be in. And she said,  ‘This is some of the common traits. They're the types of people who want to fix things, they are the types of people who are strong and they will never give up.’ And that is actually to their detriment, in this case. And I'm a very tenacious type of person. So, if I fall in love with someone, which you do at the beginning, then you're like, ‘Well, I'm not giving up on this person. They might need some help, and some, whatever’. And when you're young, you think you can change people, and you can fix them. And it took me a number of years to work out and ‘Hang on a minute, I haven't fixed them, I’ve screwed myself over. And I've lost who I am in the process.’ And you have to rebuild yourself. And like you and like your case is really a quite exceptionally extreme. But like you, you've rebuilt yourself, and you've created this person who is exceptional, resilient, powerful, educated, influential — Robert: And dysfunctional. Lisa: And dysfunctional at the same time. Hey, me, too. Robert: And fucked up in 10 different ways. Lisa: Yeah. Hey, none of us have got it right. As our mutual friend, Craig Harper would say, ‘We're just differing degrees of fucked-up-ness’. Robert: That would be spot on. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And totally, some of the most high functioning people that I get to meet, I get to meet some pretty cool people. There's hardly any of them that don't have some area in their life where they've got that fucked-up-ness that's going on, and are working on it, because we're all works in progress. And that's okay. Robert: The thing you said that I really caught is you lost your sense of self, and the isolation. And that is what abusers do, is progressively they start to isolate, and create enemies out of strong alliances and allies. And when you lose your sense of self, and you're so isolated — because as much as we want to be strong and independent, we are highly interdependent, tribal people. We form and calibrate, we shape our sense of identity and the context in which we navigate through the world off of one another. And when you're isolated with a distance sense of reality and you lose your sense of self, you become highly incapacitated to take action in this situation. And you develop, I think what Martin Seligman, called learned helplessness. And I think assigning fault or blame or accusation either to yourself or doing that to somebody else, not only does that not help, it stops people from coming forward. Because it reinforces the mental state that makes them susceptible to perpetual abuse in the first place. Lisa: Yeah, it's so true. So how did you start to turn around? So you meet Mitchell, Mitchell was his name, and he started to be a bit of a guiding light for you and mentor you, and you're in the gym at this phase stage. So, what sort of happened from there on and? So what age were you at this point, like, your teenage years, like teenagers or? Robert: I met Mitchell  when I was like 19 years old. And what he allowed me to do, and it wasn't strategies, he allowed me to focus outside of myself. Because every emotion, every strong emotion you're feeling, especially in a painful way, resides within you. So if you feel a sense of despair, or you feel disgust, or loneliness, or isolation, or any type of pain, and you would look around your room and go, ‘Well, where's that located? Where's my despair? I searched my whole desk, I can't find it’. It's not there. It's not in your outer world. It's your inner world. And what he gave me the ability to do is say, ‘Okay. I grew up physically deformed. And despite everything I was going through, my physical deformities were one of the most painful things’. But the irony, more painful than anything else because you could see me out in the shops and go, ‘Okay, this is a person who has been severely physically sexually abused, who's suffered emotional trauma’. You could see that as I walk through the aisles, because you say, ‘Okay, this is someone who doesn't look right. This is someone who —', and I can see the look of disgust on people's face when they saw me physically. And then there’s nowhere to hide, you couldn’t mask that. I started thinking, ‘Well, what about people who feel that about their physical appearance and they don't require surgery? What are they going through? And how do I focus more on them? How do I take a stand for that person? What's the areas of knowledge? What are the insights? What are the resources that I can give these people to be more resourceful in finding a sense of self and finding their own way forward?’ Lisa: Being okay with the way that they are, because it must be just— Robert: People are okay with the way they are, seeing an ideal version of themselves in the future. And engaging the behaviours that helps them eventually bridge that gap, where their future vision, at some point, becomes their current reality. So I started focusing on things and a mission and people outside of myself, who's going through something similar to what I have gone through, even if it's not precisely the same situation? How do I help them find their way out? And by helping them find their way out, I found my way up. Lisa: Wow, it's gold. And that's what you ended up doing then, and within the gym setting, or how did that sort of work out from there? Robert: Well, I became a trainer. And in the beginning, I was like an average trainer. But I became, what Mitchell called, like the person who saved people. I never saved anyone; you can't change anyone but yourself. But the reason why he called me that is, anytime someone would think about joining the gym, if they would sit down with someone, they approached it from, ‘Well, what can we do? Can we give you a couple of extra months? Can we give you a guest pass to invite some —‘. They approached it from a transactional perspective, where when I sat down with these people, I approached it from a transformational perspective. ‘What did you want most? What do you want most in your life in this moment? And what hasn't happened? What missed? What was the disconnect? Where have we failed? What did you need that was not fulfilled in your experience here and how do we give you those resources? How do we support you going forward?’ And it was also like, ‘Look, if you want to leave, we totally respect that. You've given us a chance to help you. And obviously, the fault was ours. I never blamed anyone. But if you had the chance to do it again, what would have made the difference? And give us that opportunity’. It’s like, ‘Oh, this person is like a retention master’. It's not that, my focus wasn't in retention, it was the intention rather, to relate to the individual in front of me.  Lisa: I’m hearing about the actual person and their actual situation and their actual wishes and goals, rather than, how can I sweeten the deal so you don't leave? Robert: Precisely, and that had some unintended consequences, because it put me in a bad situation, because I got promoted against my will. And I didn’t want to get promoted. And I thought, ‘I'm just getting a reputation for being somewhat good in my current job. And now they're going to promote it to my level of incompetence. And now I'm going to disappoint Mitchell, he's going to find out this kid's actually an idiot, he's a fraud — ‘I was wrong.’ And the one person who believed in me, I'm going to lose his trust and his faith, and that's going to be damaging.’ So me being promoted into management led to a series of unpredictable events that shaped my entire career. Lisa: Okay, tell us about that. Tell us about it. So you were pushed out of your comfort zone, because you just got a grip on this thing, the crazy worker. Robert: So Mitchell had a consultant, and his name was Ray. His name still is Ray, coincidentally. And he said, ‘Yeah, I think you should promote Bobby, just a small promotion to head trainer. Not like fitness manager, just head trainer’. And when they approached me, it was almost like they told me like, I had to euthanise my pet. It was horrible. I was not excited about this. I was like, ‘Oh, thanks. But no, thanks. I love where I'm at.’ Lisa: Yep. ‘I didn’t want to grow.’ Robert: Well, they had a response to that. They said, ‘There’s two directions you can go in this company, you could go up, or you can go out’. And they fired me that day. Lisa: Wow! Because you wouldn’t go up? Robert: They’re like, ‘You've chosen out. And that's okay. That's your decision’. And I was devastated. Like that my identity is connected to that place. And on my way out the door, Mitchell's like, ‘Come into my office.’ And he’s sitting across from me, and he kind of looked like a very muscular, like an extremely muscular version of Burt Reynolds at the time, which was very intimidating, by the way. And he puts his feet up on the desk, and he's leaning back, and he's eating an apple. He says, ‘You know, I heard a rumour that you're recently unemployed. And so I would imagine, your schedules opened up quite a bit this week. You know, coincidentally, we're interviewing for a head trainer position. You might want to come in and apply because you've got nothing to lose’. What a complete and total cock. And I say that, with love, gratitude, gratitude, and love. So I showed up — Lisa: Knew what you needed. Robert: I remember, I showed up in a wrinkly button-down shirt, that is not properly ironed, which was brought to my attention. And I got the job. And I was the worst manager you've ever met in your life because first of all, my motivation was not to serve my team. My motivation was not to disappoint Mitchell. And that was the wrong place for your head to be in, if you have the audacity to step into a leadership position. Whether you tell yourself you were forced into it or not, fact of the matter is ‘No, I could have chosen unemployment, I would have done something else. I chose this. Your team is your major responsibility.’ And that that perspective has served me in my career, but it well, it's also been problematic. So I had people quitting because for me, I was in the gym at 5am. And I took two-hour breaks during the afternoon and then I was in the gym till 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night. I expected you to do the same thing. So, I didn't understand the worldview and the needs and the aspirations and the limitations and the people on my team. So people started quitting. I started doing horribly within my position. And then Mitchell brought in another consultant, and he gave me some advice. I didn't take it as advice at the time, but it changed everything. And it changed rapidly. This guy's name is Jamie, I don’t remember his surname. But he sat me down and he said, ‘So I understand you have a little bit of trouble’. Yeah, no shit, man. Really perceptive. ‘So, just tell me, who do you work for?’ So, ‘I work for Mitchell’. He said, ‘No, no, but who do you really work for?’ I thought, ‘Oh. Oh, right. Yeah. The general manager of the gym. Brian, I work for Brian’. So nope, who do you really work for? I thought it must be the fitness manager, Will. So, ‘I work for Will’. He’s like, ‘But who do you work for?’ And now I'm starting to get really irritated. I'm like, yeah, this guy's a bit thick. I don't know how many ways I can explain, I've just pretty much named everybody. Who do you reckon I work for? He said, ‘No, you just named everyone who should be working for you?’ Lisa: Yeah, you got that one down. Robert: ‘Have a single person you work for? Who are your trainers?’  He said, ‘Here, let me help you out. Imagine for a second, all of your trainers got together, and they pooled their life savings. They scraped up every bit of resource that they could to open up a gym. Problem is, they're not very experienced. And if they don't get help, they're going to lose everything. They're going to go out of business. They go out and they hire you as a consultant. In that scenario, who do you think you'd work for?’ I was like, ‘Oh, I'm the one that's thick. I've worked for them’. Because in every interaction you have, it made such a dip because it sounds counterintuitive. But he said, ‘In every meeting and every interaction, whether it's a one-on-one meeting, team meeting, every time you approach someone on the floor to try to help them, or you think you're going to correct them, come from that perspective and deliver it through that lens’. And things started to change rapidly. That was one of two things that changed. The second thing that changed is Mitchell believed, because he would listen to self-help tapes, it inspired him. So he would have me listen to self-help tapes. And he believed that oration in front of a group public speaking was culturally galvanising. And in a massive team meeting where we had three facilities at the time, where he brought in a couple of hundred people for a quarterly meeting. He had me stand up and speak. Oh, man. I know you've done a lot of podcasting and you do a lot of public speaking in front of audiences. You know that experience where you get up to speak but your brain sits right back down? Lisa: Yeah. And you're like, as Craig was saying the other day, ‘It doesn't matter how many times you do it, you're still absolutely pecking yourself.’ Because you want to do a really good job and you go, ‘This is the day I'm going to screw it up. I'm going to screw it up, even though I've done it 10,000 times. And I’ve done a brilliant job. Then it’s coming off.’ Robert: If you’re not nervous in front of an audience, you've got no business being there. That is very disrespectful. I agree with that. I mean, this is coming from, in my opinion, one of the greatest speakers in the world. And I'm not just saying that because Craig's my mate, and he gives me oatmeal every time I come out to Melbourne. I'm saying that because he's just phenomenal and authentic in front of a room. But I had that experience and I'm standing up brainless in front of the room. And as I start to realize that I am choking. I'm getting so nervous. Now this is back in the 1990s, and I was wearing this boat neck muscle shirt that said Gold's Gym, and these pair of workout pants that were called T-Michaels, they were tapered at the ankles, but they ballooned out. You know the ones I’m talking about? And I had a lot of change in my pocket. And all you hear in the room, as my knees were shaking, you can hear the change rattling, which wasn't doing anything for my self-confidence. And just instantly I was like, ‘Right, you're either going to epically fail at your job right here. Or you are going to verbatim with intensity, recite word for word, like everything you remember from Dennis Waitley’s Psychology of Winning track for positive self-determination’. Sorry, Dennis, I did plagiarize a bit. And I said it with passion. Not because I'm passionate, because I knew if I didn't say it with fierce intensity, nothing but a squeak will come out of my mouth, Lisa: And the jingle in the pocket Robert: And the jingle in the pocket. And at the end of that, I got a standing ovation. And that’s not what moved me. Lisa: No? Robert: What moved me was weeks ago, I was clueless in my job. I got this advice from Jamie on, ‘You work for them. They are your responsibility. They are entrusted to you. Don’t treat people like they work for you.’ Now I had this, this situation happened. And my trainers avoided me a month ago when I got promoted. But now they were knocking on my office door, ‘Hey, can I talk to you? Would you help me’? And it just clicked. The key to pulling yourself out of pain and suffering and despair is to focus on lifting up others. Lisa: Being of service. Robert: That was it. I thought I could be good at something. And what I'm good at is not only, it's terrifying before you engage in it, but it's euphoric after, and it can help other people. I can generate value by developing and working through others. Lisa: This is like gold for management and team leaders and people that are in charge of teams and people is, and I see this around me and some of the corporations where get to work and consultants stuff is this was very much this top-down mentality. ‘I'm the boss. You’re doing what I say because I'm the boss’. And that doesn't work. It might work with 19-year-olds who have no idea in the world. Robert: It reeks of inexperience. You think you're the boss because you've had certain qualities, and that's why you got promoted — do what I say. You are a detriment to the company — and I know how many people are fucked off and calling bullshit. I don't care. I mean, not to toot my own horn. Like anything I've ever accomplished, I've learned I have accomplished through hiring the right people and having a team that's better than me. But I’ve been in so many management positions, from the very bottom to the very top of multiple organizations I've consulted all over the world, you are only as good as your team. And to borrow from the late great Peter Drucker, ‘The purpose of a business is to create and keep a customer. And your most valuable customer’s your internal customer, the team that you hire. Because unless you are speaking to every customer, unless you are engaging with every customer complaint, unless you are engaging in every act of customer service on your own —' which means your business is small, which is fine. But if it's a lot, you're not ‘— you could scale that, it is always your team. And your job is to create and keep your internal customer by serving them with, at the very least, with the same tenacity, sincerity and intention that you are serving your external customer. If you don't do that, you're going to be shit as a leader. And honestly, I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about that. Because I have heard so many opinions from people who are absolute — they've got a ton of bravado, they beat their chest, but they are ineffective. And it's extraordinary what you can accomplish when you know how to be, number one, hire the right person. Number two set expectations clearly — clearly, specifically. Number three, understand what motivates each individual, as an individual person and as a team, and then develop that team's capacity individually and collectively to channel that capability towards the achievement of a common vision, of a common monthly target. Period. Lisa: Wow. So that's just, that’s one whole lot going on in one. Robert: That is leadership in a nutshell. Lisa: Yeah. And this is the tough stuff because it's easier said than done. I mean, I'm trying to scale our businesses and grow teams and stuff. And number one, hiring the right people is a very big minefield. And number two, I've started to realize in my world that there's not enough for me to go around. I can't be in 10 places and 10 seats at once. You're getting overwhelmed. You're trying to help the universe and you're one person, so you're trying to replicate yourself in the team that you have, and provide the structure. And then you also need those people where you're weak, like I'm weak at certain aspects. I'm weak at technology, I'm hopeless at systems. I know my weaknesses. I know my strengths, so. Robert: I resemble that comment. Lisa: Yeah, In trying to get those people where you, that are better than you. Not as good, but better than you. And never to be intimidated because someone is brilliant at something. They're the ones you want on your team, because they are going to help with your deficits. And we've all got deficits and blind spots and things that we're not good over we don't love doing. And then trying to develop those team members so that you're providing them and treating them respectfully, looking after them, educating them. And that takes a lot of time too, and it's really hard as a smallish business that's trying to scale to go from there wearing a thousand hats. And a lot of people out there listening will be in similar boats as ours, like, wearing a hundred hats and trying to do multitasking, getting completely overwhelmed, not quite sure how to scale to that next level, where you've got a great team doing a whole lot of cool stuff. And then realizing the impact that you can have as tenfold or a hundredfold. Robert: Absolutely. And I'm not really a good business person, per se, like I've owned a few businesses myself, I've worked within quite a few businesses. And I think what I'm good at, and this goes back to another person that I worked for shortly after Gold's Gym. So Gold's Gym was sold, that's a whole story you don't need to get into. This is an interesting guy. I was doing consulting, I was just going out and doing public speaking, I had independent clients. And I crossed paths with an individual named David Barton. This is someone you should get on your podcast. Talk about an interesting individual. And David Barton had the one of the most unique and sexy edgy brands in New York City. And that's when you had a lot of competition with other highly unique, sexy, edgy brands. And he was the first person — he coined the phrase, ‘Look better naked,’ it was actually him. That's the guy. It was on the cover of New York Magazine. I mean, he was constantly, like his club in Vogue, at Harper's Bazaar, he ended up hiring me as his head of training. And his company at that time in the 1990s, which is quite the opposite of the mentality, the highest position you could ever achieve in his company was trainer. It was all about the training, and it made a difference culturally, and it made a difference in terms of like we were probably producing more revenue per club and personal training at that point than almost anyone else in the world, with the exception of maybe Harpers in Melbourne. So this is how far me and Craig go back actually. Lisa: Wow. It’s that right. Robert: Yeah, because we had found out about each other just a few years after that. Lisa: Some of that Craig Harper. Robert: Craig Harper, yeah, when he had his gyms. So we were introduced by a guy named Richard Boyd, a mutual friend who's like, you got to meet this guy, because he's doing what you were doing. And it all started when I went into David Barton gym, and I just thought, this is a different world. This is another level. Am I in over my head? So again, it was that doubt, it was that uncertainty. Lisa: The imposter syndrome.  Robert: But I did. Yeah, and I think we all have, and I think the only people who don't have imposter syndrome are imposters. Because if you're fraudulent, you wouldn't engage in the level of self-honesty, and humility and conscientiousness, to go ‘Am I fraudulent, is there something that I’m missing’? Only a con artist never considers whether or not they're fraudulent, it's ‘Does that keep you stuck? Or does that help you to get better and more authentic, more sincere?’ So I had the presence of mind to ask David a very important question. And I said, ‘David, if there was like two things, or three things that I can do in this company, exceedingly well, what two or three things would best serve the member, the company as a whole, and of course, my career here with you?’ And David leaned back and he did one of these dozens of things he gave me, literally. And he sat there for — it must have been like five seconds — it felt like an eternity and I'm thinking, ‘Oh my god, that that was the stupidest question I could possibly ask. He probably thinks I should have this whole, like sorted out. After all, he hired me, or am I going to get sacked today?’ And then I was like, ‘I can't get sacked. My house just got ransacked by the FBI’. That was a totally different story. He comes, he leans forward. And he says, ‘Two things. Two things you got to do. Number one,’ and a paraphrase, but it was something very similar to, ‘I want you to be a connoisseur of talent, like a sommelier is a connoisseur of wine. I want you to hire interesting, and great trainers. That's number one.’ And he just sat there again. And I'm like, I think it was a power move. Looking back, it was a power move. Lisa: Using the silence. Robert: What’s number two, David? And he said, ‘Train the shit out of them. And when you're done with that, here's number three, train them again. Number four, train them again. Number five, train them again.’ And that stuck with me. And a year later, I wound up leaving David Barton, and I come back to work with him periodically over the course of many years, and I personally loved the experience every time. We’re still good friends today. And I went to NASM, and I became a presenter, senior presenter, and eventually I became the director of professional development for the National Academy of Sports Medicine. And I brought that with me. And trust me, there was times when I was quite a weirdo, because I thought quite differently than then a team of educators and clinicians. But it helped, and it served me well, and served me throughout my life. So I am shit at so many aspects of business. But I am really good, and probably because I'm very committed to recruiting people with the same level of insight, precision, intuition and sophistication that a sommelier would approach a bottle of wine. Lisa: Oh, I need to talk to you about my business at some point. I need the right people because I keep getting the wrong one. Robert: That, I'm very confident I can help. When it comes to recruiting and selection and hiring and training and development, that is my world. Lisa: That’s your jam. Robert: And because anything I've ever accomplished, it's totally through other people. It's because I hired people that were a lot smarter than me. It's funny because that's another piece of advice I got way back in my Gold Gym days, where one of the consultants was in the room and said, ‘You'll be successful to the degree that you're able and willing to hire people that are more intelligent than you’. And Mitchell quipped, ‘That shouldn’t be too hard for you, Bob’. Okay, yeah. Thanks, Mitchell. Yeah. Lisa: Oh, yeah, nice, friend. You need those ones, don’t you? Hard case ones. Hey, Bobby, this has been a really interesting and I feel like we probably need a part two because we haven't even touched on everything because you've had an incredible career. And I just look at you and how you how far you've come and there must have been so much that you haven't even talked about, have been all the really deep stuff that you went through as a child — Robert: No, I've told you everything. There's nothing else. Lisa: But how the hell did you actually turn your mindset around and how did you fix yourself and get yourself to the point you know where you are today, but I think we've run out of time for today. So, where can people engage with what you do and where can people find you and all of that sort of good stuff? Robert: Okay, well, I just started my own podcast. It's decent. Lisa: Which is awesome because I've been on. Robert: So if you are looking for, like one of the most dynamic, interesting and inspiring podcasts you've ever encountered, go to The You Project by Craig Harper. If you still have time after that, and you're looking for some decent podcast material, go to The Self Help Antidote, that is my podcast. And I'm on Facebook. Social media is not really where I live. It's not where I want to live. It's not where I like to live, but I'm there. I'm on Facebook. I mean the rest of the older generation, yeah, piss off kids. And I'm on Instagram. I'm occasionally on LinkedIn, but not really. I will be on Clubhouse because I got to find the time Lisa: What the hel

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You may only know Kellogg’s as the company that makes your favorite cereal. But there is so much more to the company than just delicious treats. Robert Birse is the Head of Global B2B Ecommerce at Kellogg’s, and he has been leading the charge to position Kellogg’s as one of the leaders in creating scalable B2B Ecommerce strategies. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Robert explains all the ways that Kellogg’s is upending traditional Ecommerce strategies in order to help customers find greater success. Using technology like A.I. and machine learning, and by developing a platform that all of their customers and partners can use, Kellogg’s has been pushing the ball forward on bringing small and large businesses into the world of Ecommerce and helping them get the most out of their Ecommerce strategies.  3 Takeaways: A brand like Kellogg’s has the power to up-end the typical Ecommerce strategy. Instead of asking how to get customers to buy more, they ask how they can help their customers sell more. In doing so, their customers and partners become more successful, and it’s a win-win for all parties Change management is important because many of the small businesses Kellogg’s works with have to fundamentally change the way they think about doing business.hey have to rely much more on technology than ever before. But the appetite is there because A.I. and predictive analytics are proving to be critical tools in helping businesses determine what to stock and how to look at consumer behavior B2B Ecommerce is still in its infancy, but there is an appetite for innovation across the board from brands to retailers to distributors. They’re eager to test, iterate and experiment with new technologies in order to create better one-to-one engagement at scale For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Stephanie: Welcome to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, your host from Mission.org. Today I'm very excited, we have Robert Birse on the show, the head of Global B2B & B2B2C E-commerce at Kellogg. Rob, how's it going? Robert: It's going great. Thank you very much, from captivity. Stephanie: Yes, yes. How is life in captivity? Robert: Well, I'm thinking about calling Amnesty International, see if they can get me out of here. Stephanie: Well, we were just talking about what life looks like right now, just us eating lots of Cheese-Its on our bed at home, calling into Zoom calls, or maybe that's just me. Maybe that's not you. Robert: No, I think that's a typical picture across the world right now. Stephanie: Yeah, which is okay. Temporarily, it's okay. So, I saw you have a very long history in E-commerce. I think I saw dating back to even early 2000s, right? Robert: I'm afraid it was in the '90s. Stephanie: Oh nice, okay perfect. Well, I would love to hear a bit about your background and what led you into E-commerce. Robert: Sure. Well, I was working for a catalog distributor, so not a distributor of catalog. We use the catalog as our medium to communicate with our customers who were predominantly engineers in factories across Europe. The business that I was responsible for at the time was a small specialist distributor, and we were struggling a little bit to find our position as E-commerce was starting to take more of a role in the consumer engagement or the customer engagement in our case. So we were on the tube and this was the late '90s, and we took a digital transformation, even though digital still wasn't really a bonafide strategy because it was only emerging. The first task we undertook was to create a digital asset library from all the bromides and things that we'd cumulated to support the catalog production. Robert: So we partnered with a startup in London, a bunch of basically college graduates who were trying to create the first digital content management system. And that was more than 20 years ago. So we did that and we started to work to create a digital presence online, starting with static content and then moving into transactional capabilities. It helped transform that little business into something that had a much greater future. So that was my first introduction to digital and then never looked back since to be honest. Stephanie: Oh, that's great. What kind of transformations has your career seen since the starting point in the '90s to now? And what does your role look like now at Kellogg? Robert: Yeah, I mean, I've used digital disruption and innovation in all the roles I've had since that position in the UK to varying degrees of impact. When I joined Allied, and I moved to Texas, we transformed that business collectively from a couple of hundred million to 600 million in a very short period of time. Just really ensuring that we unified the sales channels with the digital channel. In the early '90s, or early 2000s was very popular to Ring-fence E-com as a separate channel, and I felt that was wrong. So when we moved to the US I tried to ensure that the unification happens, so it was the best one to punch we could possibly give our customers, we're always on capability with the human interaction. I have used that principle throughout my career to build success. Robert: Ultimately all the way to Kelloggs where now, I'm using technology to create value for our customers, changing the paradigm that was always traditional in sales engagement of how do I get my customers to buy more? Now the principle behind our E-commerce strategy from a B2B perspective, is how do we enable our customers to sell more? And then we will be the recipients of the downstream benefit in due course, and that's a big change in the approach. Stephanie: So what did your first, maybe like 90 days look like? When you came to Kellogg's and you saw the lay of the land, what were some of the initial things that you were like, we have to do this, or have to shift this? What did you do? Robert: Well, the train was leaving the station when I joined Kellogg and I decided to embark on a pilot, a B2B pilot, in Brazil of all markets, one of the hardest B2B markets in the world. So it was an interesting challenge to ramp up very quickly. Now, thankfully that we're using Salesforce Commerce Cloud as the technology platform, which I was very familiar with. So that was okay, but getting familiar with our business model in Brazil, which was a direct store delivery model was a different beast for me. And then obviously with Portuguese language challenges, it was an interesting 90 days, but it was certainly a massive. You know the saying, jump in the deep end and [inaudible] and that's where I found myself. Stephanie: Thankfully you're still swimming today, which we all are glad about. So what does your day to day look like now? And how would I think about B2B when it comes to Kellogg's? Because from a consumer perspective, I don't really think about what goes on behind the scenes. I just go to my local whole foods. I find my cereals and my RXbars, and I don't think about how it gets there or how maybe it gets to a smaller Mom-and-pop stops. So how do I think about Kellogg's B2B experience and B2B2C experience? Robert: Well, I hope the consumer will start to see how B2B is impacting the shopper experience, not directly but indirectly. So as part of our mission, we're trying to use technology B2B platforms to create a conduit where we can influence, educate, and inform and enable our retail, especially our independent small retailers. Not a frequency store or space in particular, to be better store owners and to create a better in store experience. As well as use some of the modern engagement tactics, such as social media engagement to bring more food traffic to their store from within their community. Therefore, strengthen their business and providing a jumping off point for them to become more successful in the future. Robert: So the consumer should recognize that when they go to the store, the store has always got the product they're expecting to find in the store, and if that product is displayed in a fashion that's compelling and it's positioned next to other products, they well, that would be the perfect combination. Then B2B commerce, modern B2B commerce is starting to have an impact on the buying experience. So that's what goes on behind the scenes, and that's what our vision is built around. Stephanie: Yeah. That is something I never think about, is this product positioned next to another one to make a better, maybe make me buy more. How do you figure out what products should be next to each other? And how do you work with the store owners to ensure that they abide by those rules? To make sure that, maybe not rules, but it'll also help them sell more as well. So how do you work with the store owners to creating a partnership? Robert: Well, in the past, it was always through traditional sales engagement. The Lucas success has always been a principle behind how we've engaged our retailers in using planograms and driving compliance around these planograms and the science behind them has been well understood, and the discipline has been in place for a long time. However, the cost of serving and maintain that relationship at a cadence that we need to continue has become ever more challenging. So digital is helping to change that paradigm and allowing us to go back to the long tail and really start to help our smaller retailers to really become stronger and more effective in their day to day life. So we see things like AI driving the intelligence around product recommendations for a store type, for instance. Robert: So if you are an independent store owner and you are in a rural environment where you are a 1,000 square feet and two the cash registers, that we would like to be able to cluster you with other retailers just like you, do the analysis and determine what you must stock, what you could stock and what you shouldn't stock. And then ensure that we're talking to the owner operator on a cadence that would allow us to then do more of that and offer and recommend as consumers trends change. So we're always ahead of demand, not buying demand in the long tail. Stephanie: How do you stay ahead of demand? What kind of tools and technologies are you using to ensure that you're able to quickly react to consumer buying behaviors or inventory levels for the store owner? How do you stay ahead of those things? Robert: Well, you're giving me way too much credit to say that we're actually ahead of those things, we're aiming to be ahead of these things. So let's make sure that's completely clear and we're being transparent, there's a lot of work to do here. So what we see is the ability to take all that historic purchasing information, and then combine it with social listening to see what consumers are talking about, then plugging in triggers like weather and other influences on buying patterns and then continue to feed machine learning and AI logic to build a picture that is constantly dynamic and changing so that we can then say to the customer, the retailer, "Hey, this product is starting to decline its popularity so we're recommending you start to reduce the inventory you carry. And by the way, this product is gaining popularity and we're going to drive a marketing campaign in your market to promote it. So now it'll become a hot commodity, please accept this recommendation and capitalize on that demand and it will happen in the coming weeks." That's what we're aiming for. Stephanie: Do you see the partners being ready to accept that and wanting to stock the products that you're recommending? Are they trusting your guidance or has it been an uphill battle when it comes to those recommendations? Robert: Well, first of all, the primary segment we're focused on is that high frequency store, independent retailer, a C-store, a convenience store that kind of customer segment, and they've been incredibly underserved for many years now. So any insight that we've given them so far, and the questions we've asked them about would it just be of interest, they've all unanimously said, this is what we've been asking for years, please help me grow my business. So I think the appetite is definitely there. Stephanie: Yeah, that's amazing. How do you set up platforms and systems for these different businesses? Because I could see each one needing something a little bit different. So how do you scale that model to provide the data to each company in a different way, or each, like you said, store in a different way? Robert: Right. It has to be done without human intervention to start with, we cannot be responsible for building an army to support such endeavor. So at Kellogg we're really focused on a single global platform, one ecosystem of applications that will scale globally across markets and channels and the customer segments within these channels, with a lower cost of ownership as we scale it out. So that's the first guiding principle. The second end is, if a machine can do it, we probably shouldn't do it. So everything is going to be machine driven. And then by rewarding the owner operators to complete their profiles, that allows us to capture information like, is your store rural, suburban, or urban, gives us another great data point to then create more effective costuming. Robert: And then in these clusters, the analytics can be very powerful and the machine can then start to communicate through marketing automation on a cadence that we could never possibly imagine before, and then touch them with relevant content that is absolutely pertinent to their business. So I would make a recommendation to you and your store that you're missing these two products, you should this and if you do stock these, we predict that you will make X number of dollars incrementally every year thereafter. And that's very powerful for comparison. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's great. Are there any pitfalls or learnings when going about this partnership model and helping the retail stores that you saw along the way that you would find maybe other companies or brands will need to do this, where you're like, "Hey, we ran into this problem along the way, or this was a big hiccup that other people could probably avoid if you listen to this podcast." Any advice around that? Robert: Well, I think it's going to be the same answer that everybody gives, and that's really focused on education, change management. You're asking people to change their habits. So in emerging markets like Brazil, for us high growth markets, there's a full service that the reps provide to date. And so the store owners are accustomed to doing a particular style of business with us, we're asking them to change that and be more responsive from a digital perspective. Now corporate, for all the bad and sadness that's come with corporate, it has been the catalyst for changing the perspective of many retailers to how they should interact with their brands. So that's been that the silver lining of corporate is it's elevated the position of why B2B could be a very important tool in their growth strategy going forward. And that's changed the perspective of consumers considerably. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a good silver lining. So I saw that you also created a mobile app to reach some of the smaller retail clients. Can you tell me a bit about what problem you were facing and why you thought mobile was the best way to solve that problem? Robert: Well, that's a really easy one is the business tool of choice for small business owners. The internet and the mobile device and companies like Kellogg's are now developing solutions, online solutions that years ago would have been financially out of reach. Now they have all these tools that they can run their business, and that's why mobile is so important to us. Stephanie: Got it. Do you ever feel like you're encumbered by trying to meet your partner obligations or that the experiences maybe can't be what you want them to be because of certain obligations you have with partners? Robert: No, I feel more enabled to be honest, because it's a difficult market. The times are always challenging. So anything that might add value to a relationship, I think it goes a long way to creating a winning business scenario. So don't feel there's any barriers, maybe some adoption challenges that those would have been there regardless. So I feel that there's such a large opportunity to use Ecommerce to change our engagement model, that there're enough partners that have put their hand up and will put their hand up to say, "Yeah, I would love to be part of that because I can see that could create competitive advantage for me and alone I can't do it but in partnership with you, I feel that you could guide us and help us aspire to our own digital endeavors going forward." Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. How do these retail partners keep track of all their other brands? So I'm thinking, if Kellogg's has their website that you would log into and you would look at the recommendations and get your orders and your inventory and all that kind of stuff. How would a retailer keep track of everything else they have in their store too? Is there like a single source that they can rely on or how do they think about that? Robert: So that's a great question, and it's greatly misunderstood. There is no real lifespan for a single application to serve a single brand in a retail environment. Who in their right mind would manage 50 different applications from different brands? So for two different models, I foresee. So in a mature, disciplined distribution based market, such as North America where most of our distribution wholesale partners have a web presence to date with E-commerce capabilities, we will be looking to integrate into that, to improve the experience in that environment. So think about a store within a store concept, and that would be where I would see brands like Kellogg's and others prospering and allowing the retailer to buy across a broad selection of products available from the distributor, but also to technically punch out to reach my Kellogg experience, where they can see their performance plus with their peer group to get the recommendations that we're offering, being informed about trends and product demand and so forth. Robert: And then if they're inclined to confer upon a recommendation we've given them that product order will go back into the distributor environment to be processed in a normal fashion, thereby allowing them to continue to go about buying other products for the store. Now in markets where distribution isn't as well evolved from a digital perspective, then marketplaces become the answer to ensuring that a retailer can go to a marketplace designed for their customer segment, with brands that represent at least 40% of their shelf. So that there's enough for them to do in one execution to not create administration, but to reduce administration in the procurement of product. Stephanie: I got it, that makes sense. How do you think about working with different platforms? You just mentioned marketplaces and I saw when you go on Kellogg's website, you direct people to go on platforms like Amazon and then also CVS and Target. How do you balance working with bigger stores and retail partners, and then also platforms like Amazon within your Kellogg strategy for E-commerce? Robert: Well, there's a lot of room for improvement on both ends, so in the end you're referring to where the large platforms are in play, there's a ton of up side to improve content, to improved recommendations, to really get deeper integration, that we can take all that learning and insight and present it as a more refined offer list dynamic. Obviously the price part architecture element of ensuring that what we're presenting is something that's scalable and profitable for us, as well is a key factor in these relationships at both ends, of course. I would say that they're not mutually exclusive in the sense that, we can operate in two spectrums here. So in the large platform, but also taking that technology and applying it to enable the long tail to prosper. Robert: Monetizing the long tail is actually, a very worthy prize worth unlocking for every CPG company in the world. And I think that's where the glue on your food is to be honest, we do a great job in most cases with our Walmart's, and our Target's and our Amazon's. We don't do a tremendous job today with a smaller, high-frequency stores as an example. Stephanie: Yeah. That long tail does seem really important. How would you advise other CPG brands to engage with those? Like you said, the long tail? Robert: Do you know, I think partnerships are key. The synergistic product from more than one brand that you could curate into a collective offer, there is a lot of power in that. So strengthen in numbers has always been the case. So I think we could really team up better in the industry to make a more powerful proposition to our retailers, that creates greater value, greater economies of scale, and it's easier to adopt. And I think that's what's missing today because everybody is a little nervous about working together, trade secrets and what if the competition find out. But honestly in my entire career, I've always had a hard time just getting our innovation execution done, nevermind, stealing somebody else's in time. So in reality, it will never happen, but there's an insecurity, that's common to human nature, I guess. Stephanie: Yeah, I see the same thing in startup world where people don't want to share their ideas and you're like, "Trust me, I've got my own stuff to work on, I'm not trying to steal your idea and build a whole nother startup on top of the stuff that I'm working on. Don't worry." Robert: So true. Stephanie: Have you seen any successes when it comes to those partnerships that you would advise others to think about it this way, when it comes to letting people lower down their guards and allowing them to see this could have benefit for everyone, any successful case studies there? Robert: No, nothing is mature as a case study yet. We're still very much in the embryonic stage of developing this strategy. You can see it though in play from time to time when we do joint ventures with other brands targeting the consumer, to be honest. We did last year, we did a very exciting campaign with cheeses and house wine, that was the box wine company. Stephanie: Oh, tell me more about that? Robert: Well, this one is very interesting and very simple, it was a box wine. The box had to be extended to contain cheeses. Cheese and wine, as you know, is a perfect combination. I personally was just eager to get my hands on a box and, yeah, that morning it went live at nine o'clock and we sold everything in about 40 seconds, I believe. So none of us got any, so the power- Stephanie: You're still on the wait list. Robert: It's never coming back, I don't think. Stephanie: Oh, no. Robert: We have to recover from the demand. Yeah, cheeses doesn't need much help [inaudible] as I said, we can't make enough to meet consumer demand. That's a great example of when you can join forces and just make the proposition more compelling. So I see that playing out in the B2B space as well, as I said before, together we're stronger. Stephanie: Yeah. How do you think about what partnerships are advantageous to have? It seems like it'd be hard, and I could see a lot of brands maybe partnering randomly, and you're like, "Ah, that's not really even helpful to the consumer." So how would you think about striking up new partnerships in a way that's mutually beneficial to both brands and is good for a longer term strategy? Robert: Well, it depends what your ambition is, of course. So there'll be different solutions for different approaches. I mean, obviously, we wouldn't partner with a Benjamin Moore Paint brand, there's no correlation. So within the food industry taking snacks as an example, the beverage industry is the perfect partner, beer, wine, alcohol, Cheez-It and Pringles, it's a perfect combination. So the same as for cereal, milk and yogurt, it's a perfect combination. So there's definitely groupings of product where you can see which brands aspire to the same vision, it would be critically important as well. So just because the product has synergy doesn't mean that the strategy is there, you can't force a round peg into a square hole. Robert: So my first checkbox criteria would be, is the digital ambition the same? Do both companies, or do three or four companies aspire to own breakfast across all hospitality in the world? Well, if we do, then we've got a common objective. Now, how do we go about it together is the next step. Stephanie: That's great. It seems like the larger brands too, might have to give a little bit more, or provide a little bit more help to the smaller brands, if they're picking someone like ... If you were partnering with a smaller wine company or something, it seems like you might have to be ready to do maybe the 80% of the heavy lifting, because maybe they don't have the resources or the budget. Is that kind of how you're seeing things play out when you pick partners, that sometimes Kellogg's has to do the heavier lifting to create a partnership? Robert: Yeah. Even with partners with some of the bigger brands we're actually willing to do the heavy lifting. We made a decision with our leadership to own our destiny in this space. So it's from top to bottom, and I do see that small startups in an incubator fashion, we would be a great big brother to get products launched. And we have our own startup business within Kellogg's where we're giving grants to products like Leaf Jerky and so forth, which is a different plant-based product that challenges the status quo of what we felt like Jerky was in the past. So yeah, I could see that there could be a market verticals that we would go after, there might be health club awaited before we joined the Kohler, we were talking about RXbars and examples. Robert: So predominantly through health clubs and so forth, why not probiotic yogurts? Why not non-alcohol based beer? So why not the combination? All plays well to the health industry, so there might be some small companies in there that are pioneering excellent alternatives that we would be, I think, more than delighted to partner with them. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's great. So Kellogg's is over, they've been around for over a 100 years, right? Since 1906, is that correct? Robert: Yeah, it's correct. Stephanie: Okay. Oh, good memory, Stephanie. So with a company that's been around for that long, how do you think about making sure that the company continues to innovate? Like you said, you have a startup within Kellogg's, what do you see within that startup? What kind of products do you see coming out of that? And would you advise a lot of other large companies to also put on their startup hat to compete with these B2C companies that are all popping up everywhere? Robert: Well, change has become the new norm. I mean, taking COVID aside, people want to taste new things, that is my impression, anyway. I think, there's an appetite for new and more challenging flavors and so forth. So in the food industry, I can see that the innovation around our product offers is actually critical for success. But the innovation doesn't stop there though, we have to be more innovative in how we present these products, how we ensure these products create value other than just in flavor, but in health and wellbeing as well. So Kellogg has always been a very health driven business right from its inception, that continues to be an underpinning philosophy of our company. I see a great deal of passion in our business and investment for innovation. It's not just digital, it's all down to food, not innovation kitchens and the chefs we have, they're inspired to really go find new products. Robert: We do a great job of creating an incubator within our business by constantly searching for ideas within our employee base around what we could do with Kellogg products. So I think you look inwards and outwards there's no stone not worth turning over to find out an idea about a new product. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. When you mentioned marketing earlier, it seems like you would have to market to two different audiences. You have to market to your retail partners and then also to the consumers, how do you go about, maybe within your platform where you're selling to retailers, do you market differently than how you do to consumers? Or how do you think about that? Robert: Well, so now you bring up an interesting subject in the sense that direct to consumer, which could in sense be side by side be B2B, does provide you with an awesome channel to test the appeal of new product, and affordable cost if you engineered it appropriately so that you've got something you can stand up and tear it down quite quickly without major investment. So I don't know if you would really want to continually be knocking on the door of your retailers with new products without having some good market data behind it, to say that this will sell. And so testing that product in market that becomes a critical part of the evolution of the go to market strategy. So I see traffic consumer testing being interesting proposition for companies like Kellogg's going forward. Stephanie: Got it. So you test the product with a market first, and then you go to your partners and say, "Hey, a lot of people like this, you should also put this in your store?" Robert: Absolutely, because that's where we get the scale, and then we can then turn on all of our abilities to cross sale and use some of the capabilities we talked to earlier about in the B2B platform, ensuring that our retailers know how to create success with new product. There's another interesting aspect of that too, so if you'd go back to the conversation around the long tail of retail, these companies, these business owners don't have sophisticated inventory management tool. So one of the biggest challenges we're solving for is ensuring that new products, our products we've recommended for that retail when they're placed that they stay. Because we see a lot of occasions where a new product is being placed or our product from the portfolio that they should be adopting, has been taken. Robert: And then a week later has been sold and never replaced because somebody in the evening has just redistributed product on the shelf to complete the look and that position be lost. And so making sure that these products are reordered and reordered again, until they become habitual, their presence is habitual on the shelf is a massive opportunity so it's not about just new product and innovation, it's also about ensuring the stickiness of product they are placing on a shelf. Stephanie: What ways do you engage with your partners to make sure that they, like you say, keep reordering, have you seen any best practices to stay top of mind with these people even if they do excellent and lose a spot in the shelf. They're like, "Oh, hey, this product actually belongs there." How do you go about building those patterns? Robert: Well, there's also technology becoming available from scanning to just constant recognition. So there are solutions coming, they're not particularly affordable today for the segment we've been addressing, which is the high frequency stores segment. So the challenge has been resolved by manpower up until now, and of course, that's not very affordable. It's interesting when you go to markets like India, if you don't show up something else will steal your space. Stephanie: [inaudible 00:32:09]. Robert: I know, so there's a whole bunch of, I must run ... Making sure that you hold onto the shelf space that you've worked so hard to attain. So we're looking at tools like, asking our retailers to take shelfies using the robot cameras and uploading- Stephanie: Shelfie? Tell me more about a shelfie. Robert: So a shelfie is just, the shelf equivalent of your selfie, in the sense that, we're to set challenges for our retailers and say, "Listen, take a shelf of your cereal display." And then we'll match that image to the planet ground that the AI has in its memory, and then give them a score, and that score will then be translated into points, Kellogg points that they can use for purchasing everything from a discount to cleaning services, say for instance, in the future. So one thing happens in this process, is we ask them to do a challenge, before the actually did their pictures there is a pretty good chance they're going to address any gaps on their shelf. So we see it being a little self serving and helping us get a better position in the store, but also then just educating the retail around best practice and reinforcing that practice. So the look of success is getting closer and closer in the package stores within their reach. So that's just one example, I guess. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's a really fun example. Have you seen the rewards program that you have actually really incentivize these retailers to, like you said, take these shelfies and engage with your brand more? Robert: No, again, you gave far too much justice. I talk with authority, but we're still very much in the theory and the testing, the technology is still catching up, but we see rewards and we have a rewards engine built into our platform to date. We haven't really turned it on to its full force yet, but it will be a cornerstone of our strategy. We're looking at gamification rewards and recognition as being a key driver of behavior going forward, and creating the path to best practice. So it will be a constant in our engagement strategy, so at eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night, we'll be connecting with an owner operator of a store through WhatsApp or email or text to say, listen, we have a challenge for you, and this challenge is worth a 1,000 Kellogg points. If you go and take that shelfie or if you can tell us, answer this question about the new product you recently stocked, did it sell out, did customers come back and repurchase? Did you get any feedback in any shape or fashion about the flavor? What did they think, and reward them for that first party data insight. Robert: Now, all of a sudden you've got this incredible ability to harvest information that could be invaluable to your R and D teams. At the same time, you've got the opportunity to influence best practice and take the customer on a journey, the customer being the retail owner operator on a journey to become better at their craft, which is super exciting to us. Stephanie: No, that's really awesome. It seems like there'd be room to build a community among these store owners, to all do the challenges together and to talk about best practices. Have you all explored that? Robert: We're exploring it. We're definitely exploring it. So it came from, when we looked at one of our customer's segments being a K through 12 schools starting here in North America, there's a lot of schools that are rural. They're isolated, they don't have large school communities to support them, and there's so many challenges that they face from allergies and health and nutrition, taking food and making education subject matter. All of these things we're looking into to say, okay, so our community together would be again stronger. So connect schools that are similar together and then connect schools that are not similar and let them use our product as a teaching aid. So we aspire, this is long away from happening. Robert: So please don't take this as something that's been executed today, but we can see that sometime in the future, we'll create a syllabus around corn and our cornflakes and how it changes the flavor of patterns in Japan compared to Idaho, and then to schools when their kids are having their breakfast, they can share the differences in the sweetness and so forth because the [inaudible 00:36:46], the climate is different so that the plant takes on a different flavor. So that's a subject that you could turn into a syllabus and education and bring kids together. Yeah, it is a very exciting proposition for us and different from anything we've ever done before. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. And I did not know that flavors around the world would be different. So you definitely taught me something brand new here. Robert: Yeah. We've done a few things at Kellogg's in the office in Chicago where they've taken five or six or seven different sources of cornflakes and put them all in independent bowls unmarked, and then tasted them and people were convinced that sugar had been applied and so forth. And it actually hadn't, it was just that the different produce, produce different flavors and it was quite an epiphany for many of the folks tasting them. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. So when it comes to your B2B platform, what are some of the best capabilities that you're using today that maybe you weren't using a year or two ago? Robert: Again, cornerstone of what I'm trying to do with the B2B platform is create efficiency, and so to create efficiency, the first thing I'm trying to tackle is preventing any waste of time as it pertains to identifying a product. So we are integrating scan into the mobile device, using the mobile device camera, quickly scan that barcode it will take you straight to the product in our platform. So no need to key in, no need to type in the barcode or any keywords that are associated, just quick scan within less than a second you're on the product detail page, and you got a path to purchase with one click. You've got a path to understand your performance versus your peer group with one click. And you've got a path to understand how to sell more by accessing the tools that give you the toolkits that will help you do that. So that's, that's one aspect. Robert: The second aspect is to create value around ensuring that big data is conferred into some form of exportable logic that says that, hey, you are not creating the optimal product assortment. Companies, businesses, stores, like you sell these products successfully, and you're missing revenue as a result of not taking them. So here's a recommendation for these products. Here's the stocking quantity that we believe you should take. And here's a revenue projection based on MSRP from the class that you belong to that. That to me is transformational in so many ways. Stephanie: So are you using AI behind the scenes to create a lot of these recommendations? And do you think a lot of brands are also doing this or is there a lot of room for them to adopt to this technology? Robert: Yeah. AI is the key to success. So we've talked about AI for several years now, and it has really not delivered what it says in the box as of yet, but I am a 100% confident we're getting closer and closer all the time. Anybody that's been getting with AI knows that a lot of teaching into the logic that supports the output, but we're definitely getting closer to being able to use it at scale. What I see in the next year to 24 months will be the ability to then turn on that dynamic, self-sustaining logic that continues to morph as it reads more data and continue to present very tailored recommendations to all of our retailers worldwide, simultaneously because the computing power, obviously, continues to scale at an exponential rate. So it doesn't do necessarily what it needs to do today, but the path is now clear, and I think it's just around the corner, to be honest. Stephanie: Yeah, no, I completely agree. Are you all training your own models for AI? Are you relying on a platform to help you with that? How would you recommend another brand or a larger or smaller brands to start adopting this technology or start experimenting with it? Robert: Well, there's a lot of data scientists that they're all better actor than I am for sure. Stephanie: Sure? Robert: Yeah, I'm absolutely positive. So we've been looking outward to smaller businesses, as well as some of our larger partners to use their experience. Because clearly they see the opportunity too, so I would continue to just make sure that you're using a blend of traditional partnerships and innovative new businesses that come up with some left-field idea about how to resolve one of the challenges. Constantly looking for new ideas from the marketplace, from the periphery where there's new startups starting and looking for an agent, they might have a great concept that we can use. I often equate it to something you might see in a Paris fashion show where coming in the the runway is a presentation that could be quite outrageous, but some form of it we'll get to the high street that will be very popular with the consumer. So a really wild idea can really translate and be boiled down to something that can be a game changer in reality. So never assume that it has to be something that's already in place, but to be open to suggestion and I try and work on a daily basis to be that way. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that's a really good lesson too, to look at tangental markets and industries that could also help influence not only new products, but also E-commerce strategies and just like keeping tabs on what other people are doing, especially startups who are moving quickly and experimenting quickly. How do you keep tabs on companies like that stay up to date with what other people are trying? Robert: Well in prior lives, working for brands that were less recognized, it was on me to continue to search and find, and encourage my team to continue to look for these innovations. Working for a brand like Kellogg's, there's a lot of people come calling. So I'm obviously in a fortunate position to be exposed to a lot of these ideas on a day by day basis from various entrepreneurs. I feel that Kellogg's could prosper from taking on the idea so that role has changed. So I'm very fortunate in that regard to be exposed to great ideas across the industry and not just from within the food and beverage industry as an example but from sending an upturn to, you name it aerospace, there's a lot of innovation going on. Stephanie: What is definition of success for E-commerce? What kind of metrics do you look at? What do you think is successful? Robert: Yes. Okay, so none of the traditional metrics are really going to be of any interest. So for me, the success has moved upstream. So when I think about what does success look like from a digital perspective in B2B, it's very much around ensuring that the retailer is selling more products more effectively and more efficiently, and putting more money in their pocket. So if I can look back and say that all the retailers that we supply our products are prospering as a result of our E-commerce engagement, because we're delivering not just the fundamentals of E-commerce, which is about auto management and everything else that comes with it. That's just table stakes, whatever else comes with it, where we create the value through AI recommendations, access to toolkits, marketing campaigns, guidance on how to create the perfect store. If that's translating into more dollars at the point of sale, then that's what success looks like to B2B commerce going forward, in my opinion. Stephanie: Yeah. It seems like that partnership and education is really important in B2B, have you guys seen success with doing that? Robert: Well, again, I wish I had something much more tangible to give you in terms of the successful metrics. This is still ground zero, we're still very much in day one of our B2B engagement. I think you will find that modern B2B is still in day one globally across both industries. So there's still a lot of learning, a lot of testing, a lot of refinement to do, but the appetite is there. When I talk to other brands, they feel the same way about how we can harness technology to create value. The retailers I've talked to they are hungry, and so is our distributor and wholesaler partners too, to participate in this new era of one-on-one engagement at a scale that's affordable and on a cadence that has never been achievable before. Just that combination of menu items is really driving the hunger to get to that point quicker. Robert: I wish I had to go quicker, we're definitely trying to get there quicker, but it just takes time to build. And so ask me again in six or 12 months, and I'll be in a far stronger position to give you a better answer. Stephanie: Oh, you've just invited yourself around two. So with things changing so quickly, are there any new or emerging digital channels that you all are focused on or trying out? Robert: Again, comes back to just watching and keeping an eye on how things are changing, an example would be, for instance, say WhatsApp for instance. So WhatsApp starts life as a messaging tool, becomes incredibly popular worldwide, supplanting email, phone, texting everything. Now WhatsApp is developing your online ordering capability that will potentially change the trajectory of B2B commerce. So we're watching it very, very carefully, but there's a caveat, there's so much low hanging fruit in just doing what we already know, we can do better in B2B commerce. The WhatsApp example would be a very shiny object while we still need to continue to look to shop opportunities, we need to temper our enthusiasm to be distracted, it can be a distraction. We know that there's enough revenue potential just executing our primary mission without chasing rabbits down holes. Robert: I don't want to be the anti-innovator, but there's got to be a balance. So I use three words to caution myself, stop, better and clever. Stop doing things that create no value. Identify what you do well, but do it better. And say Friday afternoon is for the clever things. So Friday afternoons are dedicated to it, but don't let it become all consuming and that's how I approach this. Stephanie: That's great. That's a really good lesson, Friday afternoons with a beer maybe then you're even more creative, right? Robert: Why not? Yeah, certainly, my wine consumption during COVID is gone up tremendously. Stephanie: I think everyone else. So are there any B2B commerce trends that you're excited about that are coming down over the next couple, well, maybe even in the next year? Robert: Well, I just think the fact that the chatter around B2B has climbed exponentially in the last three or four months, is exciting. I'm super excited about what machine learning can do for scale in just enabling us to do the value added services that we've aspire to do, but couldn't execute because of the cost. So these two elements that B2B is becoming a cornerstone of business strategy, and it's not seeming to be as a poor cousin of B2C, B2B can be sexy. We're taking all of the goodness from the user experience and applying it, but then with this logic, that's data driven it's hard to turn down when we recommend products to a particular owner operator that I've got a revenue projection associated with them, that's a hard proposition. Plus we're giving them an award for accepting the recommendation. If that recommendation comes and was close to our prediction, then I think conversion could be a 100% going forward. Robert: Now in digital, we usually have 2% conversion and an action was great, a 100% conversion, wow, that's perfect execution. What does that do to the industry? Truly transformational. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. So when it comes to implementing technology and stuff, because I think, like you said, a lot of people and a lot of platforms are focusing on B2B now, it is a new player to look at where B2C was maybe the sexier area before. How would you advise other companies to think about onboarding new tech technologies and tools in a way that sets them up for longterm success? Robert: Well, first of all, think scrappy. You can't innovate with the mindset of perfection. Large companies, I think suffer more than small companies, of course, there's a procedure and there's an ROI calculation, and there's a certain set of expectations. Especially when you're dealing with technology that can't quite deliver on the initial promise, but you have a fairly competent perspective on it, we'll get there. So you have to be a little ashamed of what you take into market, because quite frankly, in my experience, you see the flaws, whereas the target audience does not. They see something different, something value added, they know it's a work in progress, and they can see it resolves a pain point. It removes all of the inadequacies of what you didn't do as a result of getting to market quicker and testing a reaction. So that would be my recommendation. Feel a little ashamed, to be a little ashamed about what you go to market with initially. Stephanie: So is there anything that we didn't cover that you want to cover before we move on to the lightning round? Robert: Oh, no, I didn't know there was going to be a lightning round. Stephanie: Yes. There's a lightening round. Robert: That's a little scary. Stephanie: Yeah, anything high level, E-commerce trends, the industry that you're like, "Man, I really wish Stephanie asked this question and she just didn't." Robert: No, I don't think so. I think we've covered off the fact that, I think the biggest thing that's missing in the industry is that more collaboration. I think collaboration is going to be a game changer in terms of driving success. So that's what I'm seeking to build through networking and working with other brands to try and find some common ground we can explore in. So if anybody is interested, please reach out to me and I'll be happy to partner. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. That's great. All right. So the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I ask a question and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Rob? Robert: No. Okay, I am. Stephanie: All right. You're ready. What's up next in your cereal bowl? Robert: Oh my God. No, Scott's, it should be porridge, but it isn't. I like porridge, I'm a diehard Frosties guy. I don't know, there's not a bad time in a day to consume Frosties, so that's what's always in my cereal bowl. Stephanie: I agree. It's a delicious choice. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Robert: Netflix, I just finished watching Altered Carbon and it was a book that I'd read, three books I'd read many, many years ago. And it was actually a really good rendition of the novel. So I thought it's Sci-fi is very forward looking, it's probably what you'd expect me to watch, but I thought I enjoyed that series. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds great. What's up next on your podcast list or audible? Robert: Yeah, so podcast, during COVID, I mean, I listen to a lot of podcasts, especially at nighttime and I've started to rediscover Vinyl. So I've become a bit of a pseudo audio file or want to be, at least I fought the big stuff, but I'm working my way into. So I started to listen to Vinyl's audio file podcasts, which have been fantastically interesting, but suddenly they're talking about technology I can't afford or justify. My wife keeps a very close eye on me, so sorry- Stephanie: Oh, man, so rude of her. Robert: I know terrible, isn't? But logical, she saves me from myself. Stephanie: That's good. Yeah, that's really fun. Well, if you were to have a guest on a podcast of your own, so if you were to have The Robert's podcast and you want to bring on your first guest, who would you bring and why? Robert: Oh, that's easy. That's easy. I am a big soccer fan from the UK. And one of my idols is Alex Ferguson. I would love him to be my first case on a podcast. He has such great insight into leadership, management, the stories he has. He would be, there's an entire encyclopedia of subjects we could discuss, and he's an idol of mine. Stephanie: That'd be a fun one. I would listen to your podcast. All right. The last hard question. What one thing will have the biggest impact on E-commerce in the next year? Robert: One thing, I think, changing the culture within companies to really embrace innovation, not to necessarily wipe the investment and make a net positive operating gain in the short term but to be more risk orientated. I see a lot of challenges around investment strategies and payback periods and so forth, and it really does slow down our ability to go to market. So if we can get to a point where there's an acceptable investment tolerance, and that will obviously vary by company size and profitability, then I'd like to see more about an entrepreneurial approach to taking that startup fund internally, and going to market with it, improving success or a failure. In Kellogg's we've done a tremendous job recently of celebrating failures. Robert: We've even have an award, for the peace of the award for failure. So it's a transformation that's underway, but we still have to get more comfortable with capital investment that can be used to experiment rather than the business case that supports it longterm, which will come, that will come when we determine what the metrics are or what the levers that work that can be expanded upon and so forth. So that's what I'm looking for. Stephanie: I love it. You are a lightning round expert, so nice job. Well, it's been a blast having you on the show, where can people learn more about you and Kellogg's? Robert: Well, they can see my profile on LinkedIn, obviously, I'm not a big social media user today. So reach out to me through LinkedIn and I'll be happy to engage. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show, Rob, it's been a blast and we will have to bring you back since we have an invitation now for round two, we'll have to bring you back in the future. Robert: That was a mistake, wasn't it? Stephanie: No mistake, we'll have even more fun then. Robert: I look forward to it. Thank you very much for having me on. It's a great pleasure. Stephanie: Thanks.

Guests: Amanda Hickman: @amandabee | GitHub Amberley Romo: @amberleyjohanna | GitHub | Blog In this episode, Amanda Hickman and Amberley Romo talk about how they paired up to get the safety pin, spool of thread, and the knitting yarn and needles emojis approved by the Unicode Committee so that now they are available for use worldwide. They also talk about how their two path crossed, how you can pitch and get involved in making your own emojis, and detail their quest to get a regular sewing needle approved as well. Resources: Unicode Technical Committee Draft Emoji Candidates The Unicode Consortium Members Sewing-Emoji Repo Proposal for Sewing NEEDLE AND THREAD Emoji This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. Transcript: ROBERT: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 112 of The Frontside Podcast. I'm Robert DeLuca, a software developer here at the Frontside and I'll be your episode host. With me as co-host is Charles Lowell. Hey, Charles. CHARLES: Hello, Robert. Good morning. ROBERT: Good morning. This is an exciting podcast. Today, we're going to be discussing writing a proposal to the Unicode Committee, getting it accepted and rejected. This is basically making emojis which I think is really awesome. We have two guests today who have an amazing story, Amanda Hickman and Amberley Romo. Thank you both for joining us. You two have an amazing story that I would really love to dive into and we're going to do that today. It's about basically creating your own emoji and getting that accepted so everybody can use that and I think that's super, super cool, something that I've always kind of wanted to do as a joke and it seems like that's kind of where your stories began, so you two want to jump in and start telling? I think Amanda has a great beginning to this. AMANDA: Sure. I mean, hi and thanks for having me. I don't know where to begin and really for me, this starts with learning to sew my own clothes which is an incredibly exasperating and frustrating process that involves a lot of ripping stitches back out and starting over and Instagram was a really big part of me finding patterns and finding other people who are sewing their own clothes and learning from the process. I wanted to be able to post stuff on Instagram and it started to drive me absolutely crazy, that there's emojis for wrenches and nuts and hammers and there are no textile emoji. The best I could find was scissors which is great because cutting patterns is a place where I spend a lot of time procrastinating but that was it. I knew a woman, Jennifer 8 Lee or Jenny who had led a campaign to get the dumpling emoji into the Unicode character set. I knew she'd succeeded in that but I didn't really know much more about how that had worked. I started thinking I'm going write a sewing emoji. I can do this. I can lead this campaign. I started researching it and actually reached out to Jenny and I discovered that she has created an entire organization called... What was that called? She's created an entire organization called Emojination, where she supports people who want to develop emoji proposals. CHARLES: Before you actually found the support system, you actually made the decision that you were going to do this and you found it. You know, from my perspective, I kind of see emoji is this thing that is static, it's there, it's something that we use but the idea that I, as an individual, could actually contribute to that. I probably, having come to that fork in the road would have said, "Nah, it's just it is what it is and I can't change it." What was the process in your mind to actually say, "You know what? I'm actually going to see if I can have some effect over this process?" AMANDA: It definitely started with a lot of anger and being just consistently frustrated but I knew that someone else had already done this. It was sort of on my radar that it was actually possible to change the emoji character set. I think that if I didn't know Jenny's story and it turned out I didn't know Jenny story at all but I thought I knew Jenny story but if I didn't know that basic thing that that somebody I knew who was a mere mortal like me had gone to the Emoji Subcommittee of the Unicode Consortium and petition them to add a dumpling emoji, I am sure that I wouldn't bother. But I knew from talking to her that there was basically a process and that there were a format that they want proposal in and it's possible to write them a proposal. I knew that much just because I knew Jenny. I think at that point, when I started thinking about this, the Emoji 9 -- I should be more of an expert on that actually, on emoji releases but a new release of emoji had come out. There were a bunch of things in that release and it got a little bit of traction on Twitter. I knew that the Unicode Consortium had just announced a whole new slate of emoji, so I also was generally aware that there was some kind of process by which emoji were getting released and expanded and updated. ROBERT: That's interesting. Do you know when that started? Because it seems like Apple started to add more emojis around like iOS 7 or something but it was pretty static for a while right? Or am I wrong? AMANDA: I actually am tempted to look this up but the other piece that is not irrelevant here is that at the time, I was working at a news organization called BuzzFeed that you may have heard of -- ROBERT: Maybe, I don't know. It sounds kind of familiar. AMANDA: I do feel like people kind of know who they are. I was surrounded by emoji all the time: in BuzzFeed, in internet native of the highest order and we had to use emoji all the time and I had to figure out how to get emoji into blog post which I didn't really know how to do before that. I can put them on my phone but that was it. I was immersed in emoji already. I knew that there was a project called Emojipedia, that was a whole kind of encyclopedia of emoji. One of my colleagues at BuzzFeed, a woman named Nicole Nguyen had written a really great article about the variation in the dance emoji. If you look at the dance emoji, one of the icons that some devices use is this kind of woman with her skirt flipping out behind her that looks like she's probably dancing a tango and then one of the icons that other character sets use and other devices use is a sort of round, yellow lumping figure with a rose in its mouth that you sort of want to hug but it's definitely not to impress you with its tango skill. She had written this whole article about how funny it was that you might send someone this very cute dumpling man with [inaudible] and what they would see was sexy tango woman. I think there was some discussion, it was around that time also that Apple replaced the gun emoji with a water gun. There was some discussion of the direction that the various emoji's face. One of the things that I learned around that time was that every device manufacturer produces their own character set that's native to their devices and they look very different. That means that there's a really big difference between putting a kind of like frustrated face with a gun pointing at it, which I don't really think of it as very funny but that sort of like, "I'm going to shoot myself" is very different from pointing the gun the other way which is very much like, "I'm shooting someone else," so these distinctions, what it means that the gun emoji can point two different ways when it gets used was also a conversation that was happening. None of that answers your question, though which is when did the kind of rapid expanse of emoji start to happen. ROBERT: I feel like the story is setting in the place there, though because it seems like there's a little bit of tension there that we're all kind of diverging here a little bit and it's sort of driving back towards maybe standardization. AMANDA: There's actually, as far as I know, no real move toward standardization but the Unicode Consortium has this committee that actually has representatives from definitely Apple and Microsoft and Google and I forget who else on the consortium. Jenny 8 Lee is now on the consortium and she's on the Emoji Subcommittee but they actually do get together and debate the merits of adding additional emoji, whether they're going to be representative. One of the criteria is longevity and I tend to think of this as the pager problem. There is indeed a pager emoji and I think that the Unicode Consortium wants to avoid approving a pager emoji because that was definitely a short-lived device. CHARLES: Right. I'm surprised that it actually made it. Emoji must be older than most people realize. AMANDA: My understanding is that very early Japanese computers had lots emoji. There's a lot of different Japanese holidays that are represented in emoji, a lot of Japanese food as well are represented in emoji, so if you look through the foods, there's a handful of things that haven't added recently but a lot of the original emoji definitely covered Japanese cuisine very well. ROBERT: I definitely remember when I got my first iPhone that could install iPhone OS 2, you would install an app from the App Store that then would allow you to go toggle on the emoji keyboard but you had to install an app to do it and that's kind of where the revolution started, for me at least. I remember everybody starting to sending these things around. AMANDA: But if you look at Emojipedia, which has a nice kind of rundown of historical versions of the Unicodes, back in 1999, they added what I think of as the interrobang, which is the exclamation/question mark together and a couple of different Syriac crosses. Over the years, the committee has added a whole series of wording icons and flags that all make sense but then, it is around, I would say 2014, 2015 that you start to get the zipper mouth and rolling your eyes and nerd face and all of the things that are used in conversation now -- the unicorn face. ROBERT: My regular emojis. AMANDA: Exactly. CHARLES: It certainly seems like the push to put more textile emoji ought to clear the hurdle for longevity, seeing there's kind of like, what? Several millennia of history there? And just kind of how tightly woven -- pun intended -- those things are into the human experience, right? AMANDA: Definitely. Although technically, there's still no weaving emojis. CHARLES: There's no loom? AMANDA: There's no loom and I think that a loom would be pretty hard to represent in a little 8-bit graphic but -- CHARLES: What are the constraints around? Because ultimately, we've already kind of touched on that the emoji themselves, their abstract representations and there are a couple of examples like the dancing one where the representation can vary quite widely. How do they put constraints around the representation versus the abstract concept? AMANDA: You don't have to provide a graphic but it definitely kind of smooths the path if you do and it has to be something that's representable in that little bitty square that you get. It has to be something representable in a letter-size square. If it's not something that you can clearly see at that size, it's not going to be approved. If it's not something you can clearly illustrate at that size in a way that's clearly distinct from any other emoji and also that's clearly distinct from anything else of that image could be, it's not going to be approved. Being able to actually represented in that little bitty size and I don't know... One of sort of sad fact of having ultimately worked with Emojination on the approval process is that we were assigned an illustrator and she did some illustrations for us and I never had to look at what the constraints were for the illustration because it wasn't my problem. ROBERT: Sometimes, that's really nice. AMANDA: Yes, it's very nice. I ended up doing a lot of research. What made me really sad and I don't want to jump too far ahead but one of things that made me really sad is we proposed the slate and the one thing that didn't get approved was the sewing needle and it also didn't get rejected, so it's in the sort of strange nether space. That's kind of stuck in purgatory right now. I did all this research and learned that the oldest known sewing needle is a Neanderthal needle so it predates Homo sapiens and it's 50,000 years old. CHARLES: Yeah. Not having a sewing needle just seem absurd. AMANDA: Yeah. We have been sewing with needles since before we were actually human being. ROBERT: That's a strong case. AMANDA: Yes, that's what I thought. If I sort go back to my narrative arc, I wanted to do a sewing needle and started researching it a little bit -- CHARLES: Sorry to keep you interrupting but that's literally the one that started this whole journey. AMANDA: Yes, I wanted a sewing needle and I really wanted a sewing needle. I did a little research and then I reach out to Jenny and to ask her if she had any advice. She said, "You should join my Slack," and I was like, "Oh, okay. That's the kind of advice." She and I talked about it and she said that she thought that it made more sense to propose a kind of bundle of textile emoji and I decided to do that. She and I talked it through and I think the original was probably something closer to knitting than yarn but we said knitting, a safety pin, thread and needle were the ones that kind of made the most sense. I set about writing these four proposals and one of the things that they asked for was frequently requested. One other thing that I will say about the proposal format is that they have this outline structure that is grammatically very wonky. They ask you to assert the images distinctiveness and they also ask you to demonstrate that it is frequently requested. I found a couple of really interesting resources. One, Emojipedia which is this sort of encyclopedia of emoji images and history maintains a list of the top emoji requests. I actually don't know how they generate that list or who's requesting that and where but I think it's things that they get emailed about and things people request in other contexts and sewing and knitting, I've done on that list and I started compiling it in 2016. ROBERT: To be a part of the proposal process, to show that it is requested, without that resource, you just start scouring Facebook and Twitter and history and shouting to people like, "I really want this emoji. Why it didn't exist?" That seems pretty hard. AMANDA: Actually our proposals all have Twitter screen shots of people grousing about the absence of knitting emoji and yarn emoji and sewing emoji. I know that Emojipedia, they do a bunch of research so they go out and look at based what people are grousing about on Twitter. They look at places where people are publicly saying like, "It's crazy that there's no X emoji," and that's part of their process for deciding what kinds of emojis people are asking for. Their research was one resource but we took screenshots of people saying that they needed a safety pin emoji and that was part of making the case. One of the things that I found as I was doing that research was that, I guess at this point it was almost two years ago, when the character set that included the dumpling emoji came out, there was a bunch of grousing from people saying, "Why is there not a yarn emoji?" There was a writing campaign that I think Lion Brand had adopted. Lion Brand yarn had put in this tweet saying like, "Everyone should complain. We needed a yarn emoji," but it doesn't matter how much you yell on Twitter. If you don't actually write a proposal, you're not going to get anywhere. I had been told that the Emoji Subcommittee, they're really disinclined to accept proposals that had a corporate sponsor, so they weren't going to create a yarn emoji because Lion Brand yarns wanted them to create a yarn emoji. ROBERT: Right, so it was like counter-peer proposal. AMANDA: Right. But as I was digging around the other thing I found was this woman in... I actually don't know if you're in Dallas or Austin but I found Amberley, who also put a post on Twitter and had started a petition, asking people to sign her petition for a yarn emoji proposal or a knitting emoji. I don't remember if it was a yarn emoji or a knitting emoji but I found her petition and reached out to her to ask if she was interested in co-authoring the proposal with me because she had clearly done the work. She actually had figured out how the system worked at that point. I think she knew who she was petitioning, at least. I reached out to Amberley and we worked together to refine our proposal and figure out what exactly we wanted to request. I think there were a bunch of things that were on the original list like knitting needles, yarn and needles. I think crocheting would have been on the original list. We were sort of trying to figure out what was the right set of requests that actually made sense. ROBERT: So then, this is where Amberley stories comes in and it is interesting too because she has entirely different angle for this. Maybe not entirely different but different than outright. This kind of ties back to the word software podcast mostly. It kind of ties back to the software aspect, right? AMBERLEY: Yeah. I think, really they're kind of separate stories on parallel tracks. My motivation was also two-fold like Amanda's was, where I started knitting in 2013 and I had a really good group of nerd friends with a little yarn shop up in DC, like a stitch and ditch group -- ROBERT: I love it. AMBERLEY: It was a constant sort of like, where's the insert emoji here, like where's the yarn emoji? Where's the knitting emoji? And we would sort of sarcastically use the spaghetti emoji because it was the most visually similar but that was something that was in the back of my mind but it teaches you a lot about yourself too because I was like, "Oh, this is like fiber art, not really an emoji. It's kind of technical, like on a tech space," and I didn't really connect that it was relevant or that I might have any power to change it. It just didn't occur to me at the time. ROBERT: Interesting. I feel like a lot of people are in that similar situation or maybe not situation, even though you can make change on this. AMBERLEY: Right, so my brain didn't even make it like, "Why isn't this a thing? let me look at how to make the thing." When that happened for me, Amanda mentioned using emoji and everything in the BuzzFeed space. I love how you explained BuzzFeed a while ago, it's my favorite description of BuzzFeed I ever heard. Something similar that happened for me was I was a software developer and in 2016, the Yarn package manager was released and that kind of turned something on in my head. That was like I'm seeing all these software engineers now be like, "Where's the yarn emoji?" and I'm like, "Welcome to the club." ROBERT: "Do you want to join our Slack? We can complain together." AMBERLEY: Right. It has been like a pretty decent amount of time, I'm semi-seriously ranting and complaining to my coworkers who were primarily male software engineers. I remember I went to [inaudible] in the Frost Bank Tower after work and was just like, "I'm going to figure out how this happens," and I spent a couple hours at the coffee shop. I found the Unicode site and I found their proposal process and their structure for the proposal and everything and I just started doing the research and drafting up a proposal specifically for yarn. Maybe it was a bit naive of me but to me it was like, "Okay, here's the process. I follow the process. Cool." I mean, you have to make a case and it has to be compelling and has to be well-written and it has to be supported and all that and that to me it was like, "Okay, there's a process. At the same time, I did read about the dumpling emoji but I didn't connect it to Emojination and they had started the Kickstarter. We should talk about this later but I think the sort of idea the issue of representation on the committee and who gets to define language is really interesting but I saw that they had done the Kickstarter and there was a campaign aspect to it, so I ended up just building up this simple site so that if anyone Google, they would find yarn emoji. It's still up at YarnEmoji.com and that was how Amanda found me. I got this random email, I sort of like had this burst of energy and I did all the research and I wrote the draft, sort of piecemeal, filling out the different sections of the way they have it outlined on the Unicode site and then I feel like a month or two went by and I had kind of not looked at it for a bit and then, I get this random email from this website that I almost forgot about. It was like, "Hey, I'm working on this series of proposals. If you're working on knitting or yarn or whatever, maybe we could work together," and I was like, "Well, that's sweet." Then she opened up this whole world to me. There's this whole Emojination organization, sort of 100% devoted to democratizing the process of language formation through creating emojis and so then, I got really into that. My primary motivator was yarn. CHARLES: So what's the status of the yarn spool, those emoji right now? AMBERLEY: The yarn, the spool of thread and the safety pin, they're all approved emoji for the 2018 released. Amanda and I are actually at the end. Amanda, a couple of months ago when I saw someone used the spool thread emoji for a Twitter thread -- you know how people will be like all caps thread and have a thread of tweets -- I saw someone do that just out of the blue. I was like, "Oh, my God. Is it out?" and the thing about these individual vendors, it sort of gets released piecemeal, so at the time Twitter have I think released their versions of this series of new emoji but others hadn't. CHARLES: How does that work? Because you think the Twitter would be kind of device depending on what browser you're using, like if you're on a Windows or a Mac or a Linux Box, right? ROBERT: -- Emoji set, right? I know Facebook does this too. AMBERLEY: I'm painfully aware that Facebook does it because I can't use the crossed finger emoji on Facebook because it actually gives me nightmares. ROBERT: I have to go look at this now. AMBERLEY: Because it's so creepy-looking. CHARLES: Okay. Also like Slack, for example is another. It's like a software-provided emoji set. AMANDA: Right. AMBERLEY: I'm not totally sure that Slack actually adheres to the standard Unicode set. I think it's kind of its own thing but I might be wrong about that. AMANDA: Sorry, Slack definitely supports the full Unicode set. They also have a bunch of emoji that they've added that aren't part of the set. AMBERLEY: Slack emojis? AMANDA: Yes. CHARLES: Yeah and then every Slack also has its kind of local Slack emoji. AMBERLEY: Right. CHARLES: But how does that work with --? ROBERT: Okay, this crossed-finger Facebook emoji is... yes, I agree with you, Amberley. AMBERLEY: Thank you. I had yet to find someone who disagrees with me about that. AMANDA: I have never seen it before and I'm now like, "What is going on?" CHARLES: Yeah, so how does it work if a vendor like Twitter is using a different emoji set? How does that work with cut and paste, like if I want to copy the content of one tweet into something else? Are they using an image there? AMANDA: They're using an image. I think it's doesn't happen as much anymore but for a long time, I would often get texts from people and the text message would have that little box with a little code point in it and you were like -- AMBERLEY: More like an alien thing? AMANDA: Yeah. Definitely, if you don't have the emoji character set that includes the glyph that you're looking at, you're going to get that little box that has a description of the code point and I think what's happening is that Twitter is using JavaScript or generally programming. There were air quotes but you can't see. Twitter is using their software to sub in their emoji glyph whenever someone enters that code point. Even if you don't have the most up to date Unicode on your computer, you can still see those in Twitter. If I copy and paste it into a text editor on my computer, what I'm going to see is my little box that says '01F9F5' in it but if I get it into Twitter, it shows up. I can see them on Twitter but I can't see them anywhere else. AMBERLEY: Damn, you really have the code point memorized? AMANDA: No, I -- CHARLES: Oh, man. I was really hoping -- AMBERLEY: Oh, man. ROBERT: You live and breathe it. AMANDA: No, I'm not that compulsive. AMBERLEY: We definitely have our emojis on our Twitter bios, though. AMANDA: Absolutely. ROBERT: If you see Amanda's bio, it's pretty great. AMANDA: They started showing up on Twitter and I think that somebody in Emojination probably told me they were out and that was when I first started using them. Amberley might have actually seen it. It sounds like you just saw it in the wild, which is kind of amazing. AMBERLEY: I saw it in the wild with this tweet thread and yeah, it's just [inaudible]. I was like, "Amanda, is it out?" CHARLES: Yeah, I feel like I saw that same usage too, although I obviously did not connect any dots. AMANDA: This last week, October 2nd -- I'm also looking things up. I'm just going to come to the fact that I am on a computer looking things up so I can fact check myself -- after they actually released their emoji glyph set, so by now any updated iOS device should have the full 2018 emoji, which in addition to a kind of amazing chunky yarn and safety pin, there's also a bunch of stuff. There's a broom and a laundry basket. There's a bunch of really basic, kind of household stuff that certainly belongs in the character set alongside wrenches and hammers. AMBERLEY: I think one of the big ones too for this year was the hijab? AMANDA: No, the hijab actually came out with a dumpling. Hijab has been available -- AMBERLEY: It's been up, okay. ROBERT: So did it come with iOS 12 or 12.1? I don't know for sure. I just know -- AMANDA: I'm looking at it and it's 12.1. I really feel that I should be ashamed that I have used the internet and search for this. AMBERLEY: I would say, I have no idea what their release numbers are. AMANDA: [inaudible] as it appeared for the first time in iOS for 2018 with today's release of the iOS 12.1, Beta 2 for developers. ROBERT: That is amazing. Do you get some kind of satisfaction -- like you have to, right? -- from people using the emoji and it's starting to make its way out there? AMANDA: So much. Oh, my God, yeah. AMBERLEY: I didn't really expect it, like saying that random tweet using this spool of thread for a tweet thread. I just thought and I just got so psyched. For me, I'm a knitter. I have knitter friends and it started with yarn and then really, Amanda and through Amanda, Jenny really sort of broadened my idea of what it all really meant. To think someone using it in the wild for a totally different application than I had ever thought of was like, "That's legit." AMANDA: I definitely have a sewing emoji search in my tweet deck and sometimes, when I'm feeling I need a little self-validation, I'll go look over there and find people who are saying things like, "Why is there no sewing emoji?" and I'll just reply with all the sewing emoji, like it is part of my work in this life to make sure that not only do they exist but people know about them. ROBERT: That is awesome. I would do the same thing, though to be honest. You'll be proud of that. AMANDA: Totally. ROBERT: Were there any hitches in the proposal process? I know we're kind of alluded to it but the thing that you started off one thing, Amanda didn't make it. Right? AMANDA: I know. ROBERT: So how did that process happen from you two meet each other and then going through the actual committee and the review process and then being accepted. What would that mean? AMANDA: The process is actually incredibly opaque. We wrote this whole proposal, a bunch of people edited it, which is one of the other nice things about collaborating with Emojination. There was a bunch of people who are just really excited about emoji and the kind of language making that Amberley was talking about. There's a whole bunch of people who just jumped in and gave us copy edits and feedback, which was super helpful and then, there was a deadline and we submitted it to the committee and it actually shows up in the Unicode register which is also a very official kind of document register. I was a little excited about that too but then they have their meeting. They first have a meeting and there's like a rough pass and the Emoji Subcommittee makes formal recommendations to the Unicode Consortium and then the consortium votes to accept or reject the Emoji Subcommittee's recommendations. It's a very long process but unless you're going and checking the document file and meeting minutes from the Unicode Consortium meetings, you'll never going to know that it happen. AMBERLEY: -- You know someone connected through there because one of the things in our first pass, it wasn't that it was rejected. It was that we needed to modify something. We do have art for knitting needles with yarn because at one point, I think we weren't totally sure that a ball of yarn would be visually distinct enough in this emoji size to look like yarn and so, we had put it with sort of knit piece on knitting needles. AMANDA: Oh, that's right. There was a tease of a little bit of knitted fabric. AMBERLEY: Right and I think that, probably through Jenny or the people actually in the room, the feedback I remember is that there is a crocheter in the room who was like, "Yeah, why isn't there a yarn emoji but knitting needle?" so there was a little bit of like that was how I think we ended up from knitting needles with a fiber piece to ball of yarn, maybe. AMANDA: I think that sounds right. I'm actually sure of that. It's just all coincide with my recollection. There were some things that they had questions about and that happened really fast because I feel like we had a couple of days and they have stuck to our guns and said, "No, we're only interested in knitted bit of fabric." Also, we worked with an illustrator and went back and forth with her because the initial piece that she had illustrated, I feel like the knitting needles were crossing in a way. That was not how knitting works and so, there was a little bit of back and forth around that as well. But then once they decided that the they like the thread, yarn and safety pin, we're going to move to the next stage. I actually had to go back and look at the minutes to find out that the two reasons that they didn't move the sewing needle on to the next stage is when they thought it was adequately represented by the thread, which I wholeheartedly disagree with and they thought it wasn't visually distinctive. That's so much harder because a sewing needle, which is really just a very fine piece of metal with an eye at the end, you get down to a really small size and it is maybe a little hard to know what you're looking at. But I think there's such a big difference between the static object which is the spool or the thread which represents a lot of things and is important and the needle, which is the active tool that you use to do the making, to do the mending, to do the cobbling. CHARLES: Yeah. I'm surprised that it almost isn't reversed when certainly in my mind, which I think is more culturally important in terms of the number of places which it appears, it's definitely the needle as being kind of... Yeah. AMANDA: Yeah and I think that the thread and yarn, they're important and I think that the decision to have a ball of yarn rather than a bit of knitting makes sense because there's a lot of things that you can use a ball of yarn that aren't just knitting and they think that -- AMBERLEY: And it's the first step too that doesn't exclude anyone in the fiber art community. AMANDA: But there's so many things like in sutures and closing wounds, you're not using a little spool of cotton thread for that or polyester thread and stuff like embroidery and beadwork, you might be using thread or fiber of some sort that started on a spool but you might not. Embroidery floss was not sold in a spool and there's all these places where we use needles and all kinds of different size and you don't always use thread. Sometimes, you're using yarn. Sometimes, you're using leather cord. Sometimes, you're using new bits of, I would say Yucca. You're using plant fibers to do baskets and in all of these different practices, that process of hooking it through the eye and sewing it is how it's actually made. It still sort of mystifies me why they haven't accepted it but they also didn't reject it, which is really interesting. I don't know how many other emoji are sort of sitting in this weird nether space because sometimes they just reject them outright. I think there was a proposal for a coin that they just said no. ROBERT: They were a like, "A coin?" That would be [inaudible]. AMANDA: Oh, God. ROBERT: They have to add one for every -- AMANDA: [inaudible]. CHARLES: Literally, the pager of 2017. AMANDA: Exactly. CHARLES: So what recourse is now available to you all and to us, by extension, to get the sewing needle? AMANDA: I'm actually working on a revised proposal and I've been trying to figure out what are all the arguments that I'm missing for why sewing and the needle are not adequately represented by the thread and yarn. A bunch of things that a friend of my named, Mari who's half-Japanese, half-American but lives in Guatemala and does all this kind of arts in textile work, pointed out that there's a whole holiday in Japan devoted to bringing your broken needles and thanking them for their service. I thought that was really cool. I've been trying to formulate what are all of the arguments for the necessity of both a needle and a spool. If anybody has interesting ways to phrase that, I would love for arguments. CHARLES: Yeah but it's hard to imagine the arguments is just anything being more compelling than the arguments the you just laid out that you named about seven context: shoemaking, medicine, different fibers where the needle operates completely and totally independent of the thread. It's looming so large in kind of our collective conscious like holidays, being dedicated to them, except I think the Cro-Magnon pager, which is made out of stone, I believe, the being the artifact that pre-dates... AMANDA: There's the idiom landscape as well. Things like finding a needle in a haystack, that has a very specific meaning -- ROBERT: And for puns. I've been resisting saying a pun this whole time. AMANDA: Oh, share your pun with us. AMBERLEY: Yeah, you have to say it. ROBERT: Well, you could say that trying to get this through the committee is like threading a needle. Butchered but -- AMANDA: There's a biblical quote about getting into heaven -- a camel through the eye of a needle. I forget actually how it... CHARLES: To thread a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. AMANDA: Exactly and there's this sort of do-re-mi, saw, a needle pulling thread. There are all these places where it's about the needle and somebody had -- CHARLES: It's primarily ancient. AMANDA: I know. CHARLES: It is the prime actor. Maybe, this is a good segue into kind of talking about the makeup of the committee and the decision making process and these kind of what seem like very clear arguments might not be received as such. AMANDA: I certainly don't want to say anything bad about anybody on the committee. CHARLES: No, no, I don't think that there's anything bad. I think that being receptive to things which are familiar to us versus with things that aren't is a very natural human thing and it can be interesting to see that at work and at play. AMANDA: The Unicode Consortium is also evaluating all of these requests for whole language glyphs sets. Lots of languages and lots of character sets that are kind of obvious, like there has to be a sort of like character set like there has to be an Arabic character set but there are a lot of languages that have been left out of that because they're very small minority languages or they are historical languages, where the actual writing is no longer written the same way but there's historical reasons to be able to represent those characters. One of the reasons why the Emoji Subcommittee cares about what gets into the formal character set is that everybody has to accommodate it and there's already been, I think some grousing. People start to moan and groan about how there's too many emoji, then it's too hard to find things. CHARLES: And there's no take backs. AMANDA: There's no take backs. You can't undo it. The committee is made up of representatives from a lot of tech companies primarily, although there's a couple of other kind of odd additional folks on there. I do try to find the committee list and I can find it right now. AMBERLEY: I have it from Emojination. I don't know if it's up to date but Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, Adobe, Apple, Google, Facebook, Shopify and Netflix. The other voting members -- ROBERT: Shopify? AMBERLEY: Yeah, right? The others being the German software company, SAP and the Chinese telecom company, Huawei and the Government of Oman. AMANDA: Yeah, the Government of Oman is a fascinating one. I don't think they're the ones that are biting us on this. Especially for those tech companies, every time the emoji character set adds 10 or 12 emoji, they don't have to accommodate it on their devices. They have to put illustrators on it, they have to deal with everyone saying that the crossed fingers emoji in Facebook looks like I-don't-even-know-what. AMBERLEY: Hey, Amanda. AMANDA: It's all your fault. There's a whole process and there's non-trivial work associated with every single new emoji, so wanting to put the brakes on a little bit and be intentional about where and when they apply that work, it doesn't seem crazy to me. I just want them to approve the thing that I want. AMBERLEY: I like the way that Emojination captures it. I looked at their website earlier and actually, they take it down but their goal quote "Emojination wants to make emoji approval an inclusive representative process." There has to be a process. There's overhead involved but looking at the makeup of the decision makers are not a trivial question. CHARLES: Right. This is a great example like [inaudible] metaphor but these little artifacts, these emojis are literally being woven to the fabric of a global culture and certainly, everybody uses them and they become part of the collective subconscious. It does seem like very important to be democratic in some way. It sounds like there is a process but making sure that everyone has a stake. AMBERLEY: Yeah. ROBERT: What was the reason that they gave for not accepting the needle and thread? Was it like a soft no? You said it's like just hanging out, not really rejected but not accepted. We're going to drop a link in the show notes for the proposal and your GitHub and everything. I'm looking at the PDF that was put together and it seems like it was all a package deal like we talked about. How do they just draw or they just take like a lawyer would, just like draw or cross it out like, "Well, no but we'll take the other ones." AMANDA: Yes, basically. What they did is they need to discuss and I don't know how long they've been meeting but they need to discuss all of the proposals that have been supplied by a particular deadline and -- ROBERT: That sounds painful. AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, it's -- ROBERT: Just imagine the power of thinking about emojis. AMANDA: One of the things that they rejected, I think because there's the smiling poo face. Somebody wanted a frowning poo face and they rejected that. There's a bunch of things that actually do get rejected. I don't know if they've been really care about a smiling poo face versus a frowning poo face. ROBERT: What about an angry one? AMANDA: We got all the feelings of poo. ROBERT: We got important work to do here. AMANDA: But they go through when they're trying to figure out. I think to some degree, you want to get them when they're not tired but I think the status that it's listed right now is committee pushback, so they've set it aside until we have some concerns. We're not going to reject it outright but we're not really sure why this isn't adequately represented. Then their most recent meeting, they just kind of passed on reconsidering it, which is fine because I think I was traveling and my proposal is not done. I really want to make sure that I have consolidated every imaginable argument in one place so -- ROBERT: And make it strong as possible. AMANDA: Yeah. If people want to help the other thing that would be amazing is any and all idioms that you can think of, especially ones that are not in English or European languages, idioms in Central European languages, idioms in Asian languages that refer to needles, either translations of the kind of classic, 'finding a needle in a haystack,' but also any idioms that are kind of unusual and specific to a culture outside of what I have experience with would be amazing for making the case, so this is an international need. ROBERT: Do they need any specific or actionable feedback or do they just say, "We're going to push back on this. We're just not quite sure?" AMANDA: The two things that we're in the minutes -- there are minutes and they publish the minutes to Unicode.org -- were it was not visually distinct, which is not totally crazy. We actually worked with an illustrator to get a different image. The first image was almost at 90 degrees. It was kind of straight up and down and it is a little hard to see and the second is -- ROBERT: Especially, because it's thin. AMANDA: The second image is actually a kind of stylized needle because it's fairly a little fatter and the eye is bigger but it's much more distinctively a needle. I'm hoping that that will also convince them but you have to be able to tell at a very small size that it's a needle. The other thing that they said was that sewing was already represented by the thread, that we didn't need thread and needle but it was literally one line in the minutes that referenced that and then it sort of like, "Did you have somebody in the room or not?" and so, if there is somebody on the committee who is willing to tell you really what their concerns were, then you have some sense of what they're looking for and why they're pushing back. When you can very much see in the earliest emoji character sets that I have a hammer and I have a wrench and I use them but there's these very conventionally male tools. We have all of the kind of office supplies but all of homemaking and housekeeping and textile production, none of them were there until very, very recently. I think it does reflect the gender of the people who've been making these tools, that sewing and knitting weren't important enough as human practices to be included in this glyph set. AMBERLEY: I guess, that's non-trivial to mention because that wasn't an argument that I made in my original yarn draft and Amanda and Jenny sort of pushing to open it up to this whole slate of craft emoji. I didn't realize until they brought that up. I took a stroll through pretty much the whole slate of emoji and you can count on almost one hand the number that represented the creative endeavors or sort of more traditionally known as creative things like camera or painting palette and stuff like that. It was extremely limited. AMANDA: I think they have stuff like that. I think there's a few different variations on the camera and then there's painting palette and that's it. AMBERLEY: Oh, there's the theater mask. AMANDA: Oh, that's right. There is the theater, the happy and sad -- AMBERLEY: And I don't know it exactly and I haven't read the minutes like Amanda has but I think and I hope that that was a particularly compelling piece of that argument. AMANDA: I think they definitely heard it. AMBERLEY: Yeah. CHARLES: Opening it up then, what else is coming in the way of craft? It sounds like this is historical but these pieces are being filled in not only with the work that you all are doing but by other emoji which you're appearing. AMANDA: Yes. CHARLES: And are you in contact with other people who are kind of associated with maybe craft and textiles and other kind of what you're labeling historically creative spaces? AMANDA: I don't think there are anymore with a possible exception. Someone's working on a vinyl record proposal which I think is great. CHARLES: Yeah, that's awesome. ROBERT: Antiquated, though. AMANDA: Maybe not, I don't know. AMBERLEY: Take a stroll through the Emojination Slack and people discussed that. AMANDA: Yeah. If you click at Emojination.org, the whole Airtable database is on there. There's not a lot of other creative ones. A friend of mine got really bent out of shape about the lack of alliums and wrote a whole slate proposal for leeks and scallions and garlic and onions. ROBERT: Oh, there is a garlic one, right? AMANDA: No. I mean, there is -- AMBERLEY: Actually, I'm looking at the Unicode page for current emoji candidates. They first get listed as... I forget the exact order. They become draft candidates and then provisional candidates or vice versa but I don't see any pending further creative ones but garlic and onion are on there. AMANDA: Yes. ROBERT: That makes my Italian a little happy. AMANDA: I think there's some prosthesis, the mechanical leg and the mechanical arm, a guide dog -- AMBERLEY: Ear with hearing aid, service dog. AMANDA: Yeah, there's a good chunk of interesting things that have been left out. I guess they've been approved by the subcommittee but are still waiting on final approval by the Unicode Consortium. ROBERT: Okay. What are the next steps that we can do to help push the thread and needle proposal through it. You mentioned a couple things like coming up with idioms that are in different languages and whatnot but how can we contact you and push this effort and help? AMANDA: That's such a good question. I don't even know. I mean, I am Amanda@velociraptor.info and you're totally welcome to email me if you want to help with this and I will -- ROBERT: That's a great domain, by the way. AMANDA: Unfortunately, there's no information about velociraptors anywhere on that site. ROBERT: That's the way it should be. AMANDA: But also, if you're excited about working on emoji proposals, Emojination is an incredibly great resource and folks there, including me actually will help you identify things that are on other people's wish lists that you could work on if you just want to work on something and we'll help you refine your proposal if you know what you want and we'll help you figure out whether it's worth putting the time in or not and how to make it compelling. You can definitely check out Emojination.org. I think there's a path to get on to the Slack from there. AMBERLEY: Oh, yeah. The Slack and the Airtable. AMANDA: Yeah. ROBERT: It sounds like there's a whole community that was born out of this, where everybody is trying to help each other and collaborate and get their shared ideas across. AMANDA: Definitely and there's a woman, Melissa Thermidor who is fantastic, who actually is a social media coordinator. It's her actual title but she works for the National Health Service in the UK and was tasked with getting a whole series of health-related emoji passed. There's a bunch of things that she's -- AMBERLEY: Is she's the one doing blood. AMANDA: She's doing blood. AMBERLEY: That's a good one. AMANDA: Because there's a lot of really important health reasons why you need to be able to talk about blood and getting blood and blood borne illnesses and -- AMBERLEY: That one was listed on the emoji candidate page or blood donation medicine administration. AMANDA: Yeah. ROBERT: That's really interesting, so she works for the government, right? and that was part of her job to do that? AMANDA: Yes. ROBERT: That's awesome, actually. I love that. AMANDA: Yeah, I think the drop of blood, the bandage and the stethoscope are the three that are in the current iteration, which is interesting because the existing medical emoji were the pill and that gruesome syringe with a little drops of fluid flying off of it, which do not do a lot to encourage people to go to the doctor. ROBERT: No, not at all. AMANDA: So a few more, we're welcoming medical emoji. ROBERT: You have a GitHub. Is that where you're still doing for the follow up and the prep work for the sewing emoji? AMANDA: Yeah, that's probably the best place. I do have a Google Docs somewhere but that's probably a better place to connect even than my ridiculous Velociraptor email. The GitHub -- ROBERT: But it's still awesome. AMANDA: It is awesome. I won't lie. I'm very proud of it. I am AmandaBee -- like the Bumble Bee -- on GitHub and the sewing emoji, the original proposals are there and I will make sure that there is information about how to plug into the revised needle proposal there as well. You guys are a tech podcast, so if people want to just submit suggestions as issues on that repository, that's awesome. We'll totally take suggestions that way. ROBERT: That would be pretty rad. Well, I appreciate you two being on the podcast. I love hearing your stories and how it ended up converging in parallel tracks but it end up achieving the same goal. Still unfinished, right? Let's see if we can help push this over the finish line and get it done because I would really like to see a needle. I could definitely use that in many of my conversations already now, making all kinds of puns. Thank you, Amanda for coming on and sharing your story. AMANDA: Thanks for having me. ROBERT: And thank you, Amberley for also coming on and sharing your story. This was super awesome. AMBERLEY: Yeah and thank you for connecting us to finally have a voice conversation. AMANDA: I know. It's great to actually talk to you, Amberley. CHARLES: Oh, wow, this is the first time that you actually talked in audio? AMANDA & AMBERLEY: Yeah. ROBERT: We're making things happen here. The next thing we have to do is get this proposal through and accepted. AMANDA: Yes. CHARLES: You've converted two new faithful sewing and needle partisans here and I'm in. AMANDA: Awesome. ROBERT: I know you've already gotten, what? Three through accepted? AMANDA: Yeah. ROBERT: We talked about that, it's got to be really awesome. I think I want to try and jump in and get that same satisfaction because a lot of people use emojis. AMANDA: Exactly. CHARLES: It definitely makes me think like you look at every single emoji and there's definitely a story. Especially for the ones that have been added more recently, there's a lot of work that goes into every single pixel. That represents a lot of human time, which I'm sure you all know, so thank you. AMANDA: Thanks for having us on. AMBERLEY: Yeah, thank you guys. ROBERT: Cool. That is the podcast. We are Frontside. We build UI that you can stick your future on. I really love this podcast because it wasn't necessarily technical but had a lot of interesting conversation about how to work with a proposal and probably make a bigger impact than any of us with software, just because the sheer reach that emojis have are insane and the fact that you can influence this process is new to me and really cool, so I hope a lot of other people learn from that too. If you have any feedback that you would like to give us on the podcast, we're always open to receive feedback. We have our doors and ears open, so if you like to send an email at Contact@Frontside.io or shoot us a tweet or DM us at @TheFrontside on Twitter. We'd love to hear it. Thank you, Mandy for producing the podcast. She always does an amazing job with it. You can follow her on Twitter at @TheRubyRep. Thanks and have a good one.

Special Guests: Brian Douglas and Bex Warner of GitHub. In this episode, the panelists talk about automating GitHub with Probot. The origins of Probot are discussed, as well as making GitHub apps with the GitHub API, automating workflows with Probot, must-have Probots for every repo, and GitHub's V4 GraphQL API. References: Microstates README Probot github.com/integrations/slack github.com/marketplace/pull-reminders platform.github.community/c/integrations probot.github.io/apps/unfurl-links/ probot.github.io/docs/deployment/ probot.github.io/docs/extensions/#scheduler probot.github.io/community This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. TRANSCRIPT: ROBERT: Hello everyone and welcome to Episode 105 of The Frontside Podcast. I'm Robert DeLuca, the director of open source here at the Frontside and I'll be your episode host. Today, we're going to be discussing automating GitHub with Probot with Brian Douglas and Bex Warner. I'm really excited about this topic. The idea of automating GitHub workflows with bots is amazing. This is something that I've been wishing the GitHub have the platform support for since I even started using GitHub for open source. Just being able to have a bot to take care of certain things like somebody doesn't leave enough of a PR description and they open up a PR, you can have a bot that just responds to it and saying, "Can you provide more information?" It's pretty awesome. With me as co-host today is Charles Lowell, who is also a developer here at the Frontside. Hey, Charles. CHARLES: Hey, Robert. ROBERT: Before we get into the discussion, I like to make a tiny little announcement. We've been building a composable and an immutable state container called Microstates. I'm sure Charles can talk about this more at length, then we will in the next podcast episode -- 106, but I would like to make a small announcement that Taras who is an awesome developer here just wrapped up a month's worth of work, creating a new ReadMe to describe the vision of Microstates and what you can do with them and everything about Microstates. If you're interested in that, I highly recommend checking out the ReadMe. I'll drop a link in the show notes for you that are interested. CHARLES: If I can add, it really is [inaudible] because it isn't like any other state management solution out there. ROBERT: No, absolutely not. I've been building something with it in React Native over the weekend of the 4th of July and it's amazing. But enough about that, you'll hear about that next episode. For this episode, I want to talk about Probot with Brian and Bex. Hi are you two doing? BRIAN: I'm well. BEX: I'm good. Thanks for having us. ROBERT: No, thank you for joining. This is really exciting. Like I said in the intro, I've been really excited about this project. I do a good amount of open source, I would say and this has been really helpful in all of our repos. We have, I think like 78 open source repos on the Frontside. We have Microstates, like we just talked about and Big Test and all of those repos use some combination of Probots that people have built and it's really nice, especially with the new Checks API that has just come out. You can integrate Probot into that, right? BEX: Yes. I, actually am currently working on shifting one of our bots from using the commits Statuses API to the Checks API. ROBERT: That's awesome. Before we go too deep into it because I want to come back to that because that sounds really cool and what the integration of that is like and what changes because I'm not even really that familiar with it. I just know it was released. I kind of want to go from the beginning here. Where did Probot come from and can we get a little bit of a history for everybody that might not know what Probot is? BEX: Sure. Probot originally started out as this simple idea to make GitHub scriptable. The original idea was you have a single file in your repository that would be like a JavaScript file and it would essentially spell out how the bot would act on your repository and the goal was to make GitHub apps accessible to people because if you ever look through our GitHub apps documentation, I think it can be a little tough to get started. There's, honestly, a lot of nonsense that you have to go through in order to get set up. For one thing, the way our GitHub app authentication works is it requires a JSON web token followed by using that JSON web token to request an installation access token and that process would be really tough for new people to get started. ROBERT: Yeah, it sounds like it. BEX: Yeah, so Probot was created to abstract all of that away and handle all of that authentication automatically and simply leave you with the payload that you get from listening on web token events and in authenticated GitHub client to make authenticated API requests while authenticating as an app. ROBERT: Cool, so that's where it started like a flat JavaScript file in the root but today, you use like EMO files and a .GitHub folder. How do that kind of progress? BEX: Originally, their use case was much simpler and it quickly became clear that a single JavaScript file in the GitHub repo was not scriptable enough and not easy enough to understand. The goal was to make like an API that could make that JavaScript file really, really easy to customize for every API of GitHub and it quickly became clear that that was not really a feasible thing to do. as time went on, it turned into this way to build Node JS applications and essentially, what the configuration files you're referring to are the way in which we make it customizable because right now, there's no way to be officially supported GitHub apps channels to pass secrets because it means you're a [inaudible] and the owners of GitHub apps, so that was just a way to kind of stop that problem. ROBERT: Gotcha, okay. BEX: The actual code for GitHub apps still lives in a Node JS module basically and the configuration file just specifies how that module runs. ROBERT: Right, so they're deployed like Heroku instances, if you want, like anywhere you can host a node app. BEX: Yup. Heroku, Now, yeah. ROBERT: Interesting. BRIAN: As a reason to that, some explorations of doing serverless deployments for Probot, I think there's a couple of issues of them. I'm not sure if anybody's shipped anything like the way they at but it's pretty much it's possible to. BEX: Just a week ago, we even released a new version in which we update our core from Node JS to TypeScript and now that things are typed, we have big plans for serverless. ROBERT: Nice. That's awesome, so then you'll be able to deploy to a Lambda and off to [inaudible]. BEX: Exactly. CHARLES: Can I actually interject here, as kind of a person who doesn't really know the relationship between GitHub apps and the GitHub marketplace and what exactly a Probot is before we hear the origin story. I would love to hear a very high level view of how this ecosystem fits together. BRIAN: I think a lot of people are pretty familiar with interacting with the GitHub API and OAuth integrations. I think I've just spent a lot of time at different companies previously to GitHub, just like making calls, either to cURL or through Node JS or more recently, [inaudible]. GitHub apps itself are a way to take all the things that you had to do to make an integration to GitHub much easier. It has a lot of cool things like OAuth, scopings, so you no longer have ask for all your repos ask access whenever someone logs in with GitHub and the connection between like, "Now have gone from OAuth to Now to GitHub apps," there was a lot of, as Bex mentioned earlier, ceremony that happens to getting set up with GitHub apps and integrations that Probot is like this tool to speed up the process of getting to the point where you just want to script some automation or some sort of workflow and it gives you all that bullet play for you. I don't know if that was a good high level for you Charles. CHARLES: Yeah. I've kind of witnessed this second hand with Robert installing a bunch of things here, so let's use an example, like you did some sort of automation on our repos, Robert, where when someone files a ticket, there's this workflow that automatically adds a triage label, so that we know that this thing hasn't even been dealt with, so we really need to address that issue. It doesn't need to be as a high priority. It doesn't need to be closed as a duplicate of something. One of the different aspects that you described there, how do they fit in terms of serving this workflow onto the end user? Or was that a good example, even? BRIAN: One of the cool thing about GitHub apps and what Probot does for you is that normally, if you want to add a label to an issue, either you Charles or Robert, would have to be admin or maintainer on the team for the Frontside and you could add labels. But somebody who opens up an issue, doesn't have that ability to have write access to your content, which is adding a label. What a GitHub app does, it actually takes a spot as if you would have another user on your platform, instead of creating a dummy account or a dummy user. Probot is basically building a bot for you to then, give you the ability to add that issue. That's sort of workflow that normally would have to happen through an actual real human could not happen through a bot without taking up a spot of like, "I guess, I probably shouldn't speak so ignorant about our platform and what we actually pay for nowadays for GitHub," but I know we used to have like a limited amount of seats for organization, like that seat no longer has now taken up and now, it could be just be used a bot can do something that normally us would take. ROBERT: Right. You no longer have to create a user to do these things. BRIAN: Correct. BEX: [inaudible] within GitHub. It's sort of built in a way that apps can take a lot of power in your repositories. CHARLES: So then, what is the relationship between Probot and an app? BEX: Probot is essentially the framework for building an app. You can definitely make the equivalent of any Probot app outside of Probot. It abstracts away all of, basically, the horrible parts and leave the easy part. CHARLES: Now, I think I'm ready to participate in this discussion. ROBERT: That was perfect, though. That's a great intro because I actually didn't have a total grasp or understanding of the relationship between GitHub apps and Probots. That's really good. BEX: Yeah. Additionally, going back a second. You mentioned the marketplace before. One thing to note that is that there actually are several Probot apps on the marketplace right now. The marketplace is essentially the home for any larger, usually third-party companies that have made apps and Probot is essentially supporting some of those. ROBERT: Interesting, so then my question would then be, do you know anybody selling their Probots. Does the marketplace charge? I'm going to assume it does. BEX: Yes. ROBERT: Okay. Is there anybody charging for their Probot? BEX: Yes. There is a quite a few, in-fact, charging for it. Recently, a pretty popular example is the GitHub Slack integration, which is if you open new issues, you can have them appear in your Slack channel. That whole application was recently rewritten by GitHub. It was previously owned by Slack and that was built on top of Probot. CHARLES: And I actually remember, we upgraded to that version. It's actually way, way, way better. BEX: I'm glad you feel that way. CHARLES: I didn't know the story behind there. I was like, "Oh, I just got a lot of... Awesome," you know? Although I don't know what's the costing. BEX: Yeah, I think that integration is actually free, so that wasn't the best example. I think it's for open source projects, at the very least. BRIAN: Brandon, one of the maintainers for the Slack integration and work at GitHub, also did a really cool talk at the SlackDev Conference a couple of weeks ago, so if you're interested what were the behind the scenes. That integration is all open source as well, so if you have request or you have features that you would like to add to the Slack integration, you can pop into the repo that hopefully will show up on the show notes because I'm not sure if it's like GitHub/Slack, but I guess we'll find that out in the show notes later on. BEX: It's Integration/Slack. BRIAN: But for an example of a paid app of a non-third party, we're not talking like Travis or Circle or another one with the big names but rather, a solo dev created. It's Pull Reminders, which is on the marketplace as of today and essentially, this gives you reminders of your pull quest, so you can actually ping inside the comments and tell Pull Reminders to say, "Tell me about the pull request like next week because it's Friday and I don't have time to look at this." ROBERT: That's awesome. I've also seen the one that's kind of related, that is like you can set your out of office at GitHub, which is actually kind of a neat concept. BEX: Was that the one where we are already changing that profile photos to have the overlay or the one where is just auto-replying to messages because I've seen a couple of -- ROBERT: I think, it's just auto-replies. BEX: Okay. CHARLES: So, it can change like your profile pictures and really, not just related to repo and history related activities but everything? BEX: Anything that you can access via the GitHub API, you can almost access via GitHub apps. There's a list of end points that I specifically enable for GitHub apps because there's something such as delete a repository that there's basically, a very few circumstances under which you want to give that permission to an app. Also, to things very specific like your profile or your personal page. About a year ago, there was an official internal audit of all of the API endpoints because there are lots of inconsistencies over what was and what wasn't enabled for GitHub apps, so they went there and kind of decided, what endpoints should be enabled and what endpoints actually get enabled. Now, that list is much longer than it was a year ago. Now, it's much more comprehensive. ROBERT: That's awesome and is this for the Rest API and the GraphQL API? BEX: Yes. Probot does support both. The Rest API is the one that specifically had all of these endpoints audited. The GraphQL, since it's a bit newer, we sort of built those and more. ROBERT: Cool. I really like working with the GraphQL API with GitHub. It makes it easier than trying to do a bunch of Rest calls. BRIAN: Yeah, there's a community form, it's like a discourse form that the API team actually manages and sort of pipes in there. Again, going back to like, if there's not something in the Slack integration that you would like to have, the form, that community is actually in there, if there's something not in the GraphQL API, that you would like to see. No promises on shipping it within an x amount of time but if enough people are requesting it obviously, there's going to be some resources [inaudible] at. ROBERT: What do you mean? We're doing open source. It has to be done yesterday. BRIAN: Yeah, exactly. And that form is at Platform.GitHub.Community, just a URL to get there. ROBERT: Awesome, that will be helpful to look through and get some recommendations in there. One of my favorite things I was going to say about the new integration for Slack and GitHub is the fact that I can highlight line numbers, paste that linked in and then it just expands it and the chat in Slack. That is so nice and I use it all the time. BEX: Yeah, I love that they built that feature. Actually, the original feature that was built on GitHub to allow those line expansions in the first place, like on GitHub itself, was actually built last summer by some folks who were also a part of my intern class at GitHub last year. ROBERT: Hey, intern power. That's awesome. BEX: Yeah. ROBERT: Everyone there is doing amazing work. I'm also following along with somebody that is also an intern and it's building a weekly digest program. BEX: Oh, yeah. That's actually a Google Summer of Code student. ROBERT: Oh, interesting. BEX: So, being sponsored through Google Summer of Code by Probot as an open source support. ROBERT: Is there anything more to unpack there? That sounds really interesting. BEX: Essentially, we submitted an application for Google Summer of Code because we thought it'd be a cool way to get more people, more students, a mentorship opportunity for the maintainers, basically and we were honestly overwhelmed. We got like almost 100 applications and it ended up being a huge of a deal but we're -- ROBERT: That's a great problem. BEX: Yeah, definitely a good problem but we were really happy. We, initially wanted to accept more students but Google limited us to only two students, so we have two Google Summer of Code students working on projects and one team of women from Rails Girls Summer of Code working on Probot. ROBERT: That would be awesome. What do they working on? BEX: I'm not sure yet. They actually just started a couple of days ago but the other Google Summer of Code student is working on a background checks API to eventually do sentiment analysis of comment history of someone new to your repository. ROBERT: That's interesting. That sounds like there will be some machine learning in there. I might just throwing out buzzwords? BEX: Most likely, I think they're just using some sentiment analysis API, like the perspective API. I don't think they're actually doing that themselves. ROBERT: Okay. CHARLES: Actually, I have a couple questions. Back on the subject of Probot. How does this square with the classic mode of integration because there was a lot out there? I think the first one that I remember that stuck in my mind was like Travis and I don't know if there had to be like a special relationship between the Travis developers and the GitHub developers, that's like, they was able to make that integration happen so many years ago. I don't know how that happened. I just remember it popped up and I was like, "Woah. This is incredible," and we see kind of the integrations gets more and more rich. For someone who's got, like you mentioned a couple of the big names, is the idea that eventually those would be able to be completely supported is GitHub apps or is it they're always going to be kind of a separate track for kind of the really deep integrations? BRIAN: I wasn't around when Travis first integrated with Lyft GitHub and I think that's a really cool integration and I know they have a very nice sized team that's able to do that. I think if we zoom back out like Probot, the way to get started with Probot is that we have the CLI command, which is to create Probot app. I believe it was intentionally copied off of create React app and the cool thing about create React app and create Probot app is that they abstract all the ceremony and boilerplate to get started really quickly. It was like, what developers or smaller teams can get started with integrating with GitHub apps. I highly doubt that Travis is going to rewrite their entire application with something like create Probot app but they're definitely going to be moving towards the new API calls, which would have been like GitHub apps. Part of the Checks API that we had launched at the end of May, Travis had blog post on how their integration with the Checks API works. They're making, though they have a lot of what Legacy endpoints and a lot of Legacy integrations in the way they integrate with GitHub, they are actively moving towards a GitHub app. I don't know if I could actually comment on their status of where they are today, to be honest but actively, we want all new apps and new integrations to follow the model of being a GitHub app, so that way, out of the box, you have access to all the newer features. You have all the access to all the newer GraphQL endpoints, if you want to use GraphQL and that way, we can serve one market, as opposed to everybody who had a GitHub integration from five or six years ago, that was all piecemeal together and sort of duct tape, like we run move away from duct tape everything together. CHARLES: I see. BEX: I definitely agree that I don't think Travis is going to switch to using Probot anytime soon and I don't think most of the large companies will be doing that but I do think, there will be shift towards GitHub apps in general. For those companies that don't already have the buildings of the GitHub app started, I think that Probot could be, in time to free some of them. BRIAN: In addition to that too, Travis and Circle and all the CI integrations, they're doing a really good job. I think the cool thing about GitHub apps is what you take away all that ceremony of getting your checks to work, now we can start opening up the door of like what's the next sort of CICD thing like? There's another term or another, I guess category of applications that can now be built to improve GitHub. CHARLES: The most amazing thing about having a great platform is the apps that you don't foresee, like it just come completely out of left field and you're like, "Woah. I can't believe that's actually a possibility now." When you have started to see some of those, some Probot or GitHub apps, you're like, "Man, I didn't see that coming. That's awesome." BEX: A hundred percent. I think it's the most exciting part of Probot because I think GitHub as a platform, we all know GitHub is the largest developer platform in the world and I think the idea that developers can build on top of this platform is the most exciting idea right now. I have honestly already seen apps that really excites me. The other day, I saw this app that was definitely not near completion but it was essentially updating and issue a comment box over and over and taking response through like checking a box and then listening on that common edit, in order to specify your coffee order. ROBERT: Woah. BEX: I was like, "Do you want an ice coffee or regular? Do you want milk or sugar and cream?" and it was going one at a time. It didn't actually order you your coffee at the end but it was super exciting to watch that. You're just editing the comment. I had never seen that before. ROBERT: That's pretty slick and that's taking the API pretty far. I'm sure there were some parsing in there and each Webhook response are like, "Was this box edited or not." That interesting. CHARLES: Yeah. Actually, now that we're having this discussion is kind of like changing my mind a little bit. Robert and I were actually talking yesterday about trying to standardize on our release management and our plan was basically to have some software that was going to run inside of our CI provider and have kind of a shared library, just a little ntm package that was shared by all of our repos but I'm thinking now, man, we should really explore doing this as a GitHub app. ROBERT: Yes, please. I've had three ideas that I really want to build out as a Probot. I'm just going to list them off and then we can build them all together and take equity and you know. I'm kidding. But the two that really excite me, that I kind of want to do is one concept that we work on this open source project for our clients and if somebody from the outside that doesn't have commit bits to be able to push to master, it would be really cool if we had a Probot that after it had an approved on the PR, from the maintainer, that the person that open the PR could then tell a Probot say, "This is approved by somebody that manages this project. Can we merge?" and then the Probot would then actually merge. I don't know if that's possible. That's something that I definitely wanted to explore. Then the other one, which is less cool, would just be like if we have a couple branches on some of our projects that we want to continue and we're not ready to put it back into master but we want to continuously run the test suite against it, so the idea there would be to have a Probot that would watch for changes on master and rebase as needed and continue to run the test suite and see where you're at. Those are the two things that I'm really excited about to do with Probot but I just want to automate everything with GitHub now. CHARLES: Right. BEX: Yeah, definitely, that first idea was actually pretty viable. I'm curious to know like how you actually get those commit links -- is that what you called it? ROBERT: Commit bits are more like commit permissions, I guess. BEX: Oh, I see. ROBERT: An outside contributor. CHARLES: Yeah, we want to push responsibility to the person who is the maintainer who can approve it but actually, the way we do it at Frontside is the person who actually is making the change is responsible for merging it. Once you get approval, you still have to hit the go button and that's just going to make sure that you're taking responsibility for saying it's done but that doesn't work for open source because people coming off the internet are going to have the right to push but we would like to give it to them, maybe via an app, if there is a maintainer who's approved it. BEX: Yeah. That's definitely something you can do. I've seen quite a few apps that, essentially add outside collaborators to the repo. Are you familiar with the... I forgot what it is called, like the all contributor section, where you cite everyone in your repo and everything and who's worked on it. There was a GitHub app that would add someone automatically after they merge their first change. CHARLES: That's awesome. ROBERT: I may have seen that on React State Museum but I'm not sure. It's a repo that we've contributed to and it has all the contributors at the bottom. It seemingly just kind of popped up there. BRIAN: There's an app that, I would like to mention too that I'm pretty excited about, that it sounds trivial too and it's almost similar... Not similar but it's sort of related to what you were talking about, Rob, with your first app, which is the WIP bot, which is the work-in-progress bot. This is a pattern of whenever I open a PR and I might not ready for a merge but I want to share my code so I can get feedback earlier on, I'll type in WIP so that append to my title of my PR. What this engineer did was every time you do WIP, it's going to go into the GitHub API and actually block the PR for merging, which is a feature available to GitHub. It's nested in your settings but the cool thing about this it actually blocks the PR for merging, so you don't have to worry about getting your, sort of like show and tell code merging the master without being ready. ROBERT: That's one of the first bots that I installed on all of our repos and then you can correct me if I'm wrong, it didn't always have the ability to block the PR from being merged but with the new Checks API, is that something that was introduced? BEX: Not exactly. The way that blocking of merging works is if you set it as the required status, so you can install any sort of CI on your account and have it not being required and ignore it whenever you feel like it, so it's really up to you to make it required. Otherwise, it just isn't checked and that's true for anyone who uses the Statuses or the Checks API. ROBERT: Okay, so that's a Statuses API. Okay, sorry. BEX: Yes. ROBERT: Also, the cool thing about that that I noticed when that was rolled out was I was now able to pick and choose and use workflows on Circle CI and each workflow is broken out as a different status check. I am now required like linting and the build and the test have to pass for these browsers before it can merge, which is really cool to be able to pick and choose. BEX: Yeah. It's awesome. I know personally on some of my repos, I have a few checks that I just don't require because I know I have to make them pass. ROBERT: Yeah. Speaking specifically about the work-in-progress bot, do you know how that works? It's open source, so I am sure I can go look. I think we want to go make a PR. We had some back and forth about this, Charles. CHARLES: I actually just [inaudible] we disagree. ROBERT: Yes. Charles opened a PR and one of his first commits in the PR had work in progress and the title had work in progress and we have this this Probot on our website and it was a blog post. You know, you make a couple more commits and you're further down, you move the work in progress in the title but the PR were still blocked because the first commit on a PR have work in progress in it. I think if it's the most recent commit or if it's in your PR title with work in progress, it should block but otherwise, it should not and Charles feels differently. CHARLES: I have about six commits and the very first one have WIP in the title or in the commit message and it blocked the whole thing but I kind of felt like it actually made me go back and I had to squash it down to two commits because I actually feel that your commit history should tell the story of the development, not like it should an absolute one-to-one journal of what happens but what you are intending. I actually felt that it could help me out because there's six commits that we're kind of all over the place and just kind of slapdash together have made me kind of go back, rethink it and tell a coherent story. I think it did me a service but it was not obvious. I definitely agree with that but I was like, "Why? Why were you still blocking?" ROBERT: Do I really [inaudible] admin privileges? BEX: I would say, I am friends with the creator of the web app. His name is Gregory Mantis and he is actually got a huge work in progress PR shifting work in progress over to using the Checks API and one of the features that he's using with the Checks API is essentially this mark as now work in progress button that will add the special line, like feel free to merge or something like that into your original PR description at the bottom. If that is there, the work in progress app will no longer be blocking. It's essentially like a hard override and honestly, that's the power at the Checks API versus the Statuses API. That's really exciting. ROBERT: Because I have seen the work in progress bot to get into a weird state, where I did remove the work in progress from the title but it didn't quite update and I'm still blocked. It's okay for me because I have admin privileges but other people on the team maybe not and they might be blocked from something that's actually work in progress. It's a lot like that hard override will be probably pretty helpful. BEX: Yeah, definitely. I think sometimes, there's some confusion with that just because of the way what perks work on GitHub and the way our pages are rendered, that you may need to refresh the page before you actually see it take effect. ROBERT: Right, yeah. Overall though, I love that bot. I go weekly, probably to the Probot apps listing and just go shopping. BEX: Wow. I'm actually the person who approves all the Probot apps to the listings so that's pretty motivating there. ROBERT: It's really nice. I am not even joking when I say shopping, I go through and I open up a bunch of tabs, I read through them, "Oh, this could be useful," that kind of thing. BEX: The first app you mentioned, which was like the one that requests more info is actually one that I built, so that was kind of funny. I guess you got that from the Probot apps too. ROBERT: Yup. That one, we definitely use on a couple of our organizations and repos. It has yelled at me a couple of times because of a blank PR. BEX: It yells at me all the time. I think I get yelled at more than people who are actually doing it wrong. ROBERT: I'm a little embarrassed like, "I should do better. I need to set an example." BEX: Definitely. ROBERT: Cool. I'm curious what both of your favorite Probot app is. This ought to be interesting. BRIAN: The app that I'm really impressed with so far, that I actually only use on a junk project at the moment, is the weekly digest one and it's mainly because I built something for this in my previous role at the company but then we shift it, which is basically go through every single repo. I worked at a company called Netlify previously and we had way too many repos to maintain... Oh, sorry, to keep track of and I was moving further and further away from the backend at the time so I was unable to keep up to date with all that was changing. I built a Lambda to watch Webhooks and then give me a digest of what was shipped like issues and PRs closed. It was way over-engineered and I never actually shipped that to actually make it work. But then the weekly digesting came out maybe a couple of weeks ago and it blew me away because I was like, "This is exactly what I needed," and I was trying to make it overly complicated through like a Lambda and like a bunch of Webhooks and this person, with only a few weeks, has the scaffolding of what I needed. That's the one thing I'm pretty excited about. It was already mentioned earlier too, as well. BEX: I guess, I would say one of my favorite ones is the unfurl a link app. I think that one it so simple but so nice. I don't know. I think having that unfurl link preview is just beautiful. Essentially what it does is it listens on issue comment creation or pull request comment creation or issues your pull request or whatever and read through the text or whatever was that issue or pull request and looks for links and then, essentially unfurls them so you can get a really nice preview of what you're going to. I think that's really beautiful and just so simple. ROBERT: Yeah. I love that one too. I have that added to all of our repos. BEX: It's so much nicer. Why would you not unfurl your links when you could unfurl your links? ROBERT: Exactly. CHARLES: I actually have a question. I think it's been touched on, probably at least twice throughout the conversation. I want to actually create a Probot, how do I actually go about deploying it? What does that look like? What does it look like to deploy and maintain it? BEX: We have a page on our docs about deployment and essentially the TL;DR is you can deploy it on any normal cloud hosting service that you wanted to deploy it. There are a few things you need to specify. For example, GitHub gives you a private key that you need to create your JWT and that private key means to be passed into your hosting service however you do that and then, there's a few bits of information that need to be pass in. We have pretty intense docs about it. Honestly, I'm not a deployment person. I usually try to let other people do that and I have never had a problem going through our docs and just getting it working immediately. BRIAN: It's also mentioned that there are examples like Heroku and Now and a couple of other ones. If you have a service that you already like, it's possible it's already in the docs, like steps to how to get that deployed. BEX: Yup and any other services are more than welcome to be added to the docs. Pull request are welcome. ROBERT: Sweet. It sounds like we need to set up a hack date to create a Probot, Charles. CHARLES: Seriously, my mind is brewing. ROBERT: I guess it's not directly related to GraphQL but there's something that I've always wanted to build. For prior history to everybody [inaudible], then the podcast, Brian and I used to work at a company called IZEA and one of the things that we built and I worked on a lot was we would create a collect metrics on people's social accounts that they're connected and do that and graph it over time. This idea came from when I was building up that feature all the way back in 2013, I want to graph the change in GitHub stars. Is there an API available for me to see like weekly GitHub stars or is that something that I still have to manually store and track? BEX: There's definitely an API endpoint to get the amount of stars and I don't see why you couldn't just do that on weekly basis and compare but I don't think there's any track that change API. ROBERT: Gotcha, like a history of it. I could do this by just stealing and looking at what the weekly digest Probot is doing because there is a change in stars section in there. I was just curious if there was now an API that was available. BRIAN: Yeah, that's more unlikely. I'm going to say no without looking at all the reference documentation. I think as far as that database, it's something you'd probably have to collect on your own but it's also a good candidate for a GitHub app, where you build a service that you can actually track stars once you've installed it and then if you want to monetize it, you can actually pay for private repo or whatever stuff like that, if you wanted to. But it sounds like a great opportunity to see this in the GitHub/Probot listings. BEX: I actually just look this app really quick in our docs because I was curious but apparently, you can receive the star creation timestamps. That could be doable through timestamp usage. ROBERT: Oh, and then I just kind of loop through back and build your graph in there. BEX: Yeah. ROBERT: Interesting. All right. Well, [inaudible] I was going to do today. BEX: Yeah. But I think it's exciting to bot the weekly digest and then what you could extract from that into stargazing is that Probot scheduler, which is essentially this all Probot extension we made that triggers a Webhook on a scheduled time period because right now, the way GitHub apps works are so centered around Webhooks. It can be difficult to find a way to trigger an action on something outside of a Webhook, like on a schedule basis. ROBERT: Yeah, that would be really helpful. I can definitely see how that would be a problem, if it's very, very central to reacting to Webhooks and events that happen on the system. BEX: Exactly. ROBERT: You're just hoping that somebody comes through and creates an event at a specific time. CHARLES: Can I ask you a question about, it's definitely on topic of extending GitHub but currently, just a question about, where the line is between what you can and cannot extend? You mentioned, for example in the rewrite of the WIP bot, being able to throw out a big button that says override this merge. Are there any plans to be able to actually extend the UI in novel ways? Everything there right now is happening with API calls, with I assume, UI elements that are related but the UI elements are static. If someone wants to put a novel piece of the UI, that button is going to require an extension of the GitHub UI by GitHub itself. Are there any plans to be able to, I know it's a dangerous waters, perhaps at a limited fashion at first but maybe more so, add different interactions and the actual application. BEX: I think this is actually the most exciting future of GitHub as a platform. In the past, GitHub APIs have only specifically supporting things that you can do through the command line or you can do through GitHub's UI itself. The Checks API introduced the very first non-integration specific UI element essentially and the merge button that I was referring to in WIP is exactly that. It's essentially this button that you can change the text of it to be whatever you want and you can listen on that action and then you can do as an integration or an app, anything that you want based on that. I think that's the most exciting direction for GitHub. Because if you look at Slack, Slack is a platform that has sort of really impressive integrations in that response. Your apps on Slack can really do all of these things, use custom UI elements, so I think the most exciting features for GitHub as a platform is all of this customization and giving the power to the apps. ROBERT: Yeah, that sounds an awesome way to be able to extend GitHub without having to try and throw the feature on to GitHub developers. BEX: Exactly. I feel that a lot of the struggle right now is that there aren't these nice ways of communicating via apps because I feel lot of the apps and bots end up just commenting on issues and pull requests and taking up a ton of screen real estate as a result and I just think that that's not the way that bot should ideally interact with the GitHub platform. They should have their own space to exist and that's the feature I'm most excited for. CHARLES: Yeah. I can think of having like progress bars for CI checks and your various appointments. It's too exciting. I'm glad. That's definitely the response I was hoping to hear. BEX: Yeah. We're excited for it too. ROBERT: Basically, you all have a massive community of a bunch of developers that would want to do this and are willing to get their hands dirty on it. Enabling that community is probably the root of all Probot is about. That's super awesome. BEX: Yup. CHARLES: That's a good place to end, because gosh, it's going to be so exciting to have the millions of developers on the planet, just like surgeon to the APIs that you're developing. BRIAN: One thing to add to that too, about the whole million developers, there's a number that's been thrown out from Stack Overflow and also, some other people who are saying like there's 50 million developers, there's 24 million developers. As far as GitHub, our public user number is 28 million, the cool thing about Probot and GitHub apps is that there's a good chance that all those people that are using GitHub today are not actually developers. They're like PMs or designers and what's really cool about this, like having interactions with that kind of platform in this way is that you can now enable all the non-developers to be able to interact with your GitHub repos and start bringing more designers and PMs onto to the GitHub platform to interact with the developers. ROBERT: That is an interesting point. That is awesome and something that I'm always looking for is a different ways to collaborate with non-developers on my team because... I don't know, developers tend to think everything is always centered around code but it's not. The shifting at work that are awesome, needs a lot of collaboration from non-devs and non-dev skills. That would be really interesting to see. I'm excited for that to play out. BRIAN: Yeah. There's a blog post that was published a month ago, I think about where the design team, design system teams rather, built the integration to Figma to update their icons effectively. I just posted that in the chat to look into but they also built this as a Probot app as well. ROBERT: That is awesome. BEX: Yeah, that one is super exciting. You would have the app comment, the diff between what the old icon versus what the new icon look like and it's just such a beautiful design change to be able to see that shift. ROBERT: Man, I'm happy that this is happening. The future seems super bright. Where can we direct people to get resources to contribute, to get involved and start really going at this? BEX: Basically, Probot.GitHub.io has all the Probot stuff, /app has all the listings for apps you can install today, /docs is where the docs are, if you want to get started and hopefully from there, we link up to the necessary things that you need to do. BRIAN: Also, what I mentioned too via Probot Slack channel, there's a Slack channel as well and they do a weekly call. I think, it's weekly or bi-weekly call to actually chat with the Probot community. If you have questions, you can actually bring your questions to the team. BEX: Yeah, we call it 'Office Hours' and it's once a week and it's under our community page, where we also have a link to our Slack. We have a link to another podcast we run and basically, how to get involved in the Probot community. ROBERT: Those are really helpful resources. I do remember seeing that Office Hours. It's on Thursdays, right? BEX: Yes. ROBERT: I was going to drop in for one and then, I actually forgot. Actually, it might be going on as we talk right now in this podcast. BEX: It starts in half an hour, I think. ROBERT: That's awesome. Cool. Well, thank you Brian and Bex for having a conversation about Probot. This is really awesome. Is there anything that you would like to plug for yourselves? How people can get in contact with you? BRIAN: Yeah, I am BdougieYO on Twitter. Everything you need to know about me is there and I am happy to say hello. I'm also helping with the GitHub developer program, which is sort of getting a soon-to-be announced rebranding. If you go to Develop.GitHub.com/Program and you want to have more conversation about the API and GitHub apps on the GitHub side, you can go there to sign up. BEX: And I am HiImBexo on Twitter. You can ping me in any Probot stuff. I'd be happy to look at any Probot code. I've been looking at it for a while now so I'm happy to do that. ROBERT: That's awesome. Thank you all for having a conversation with us. This was really fun. I'm so excited about everything you can do with Probot. This is a really fun project. I'm happy that this is happening and I will make a Probot in the future. CHARLES: I'm looking forward too. Robert has been excited for quite some time and he definitely talks a lot about it and now, I have some insight as to what -- ROBERT: It's happening, I'm telling you. Well. Thank you for being here and we are the Frontside. We build UI that you can stake your future on. We are specializing in JavaScript. We can build anything that you want throw at us. We do functional programming, React testing, Vue, anything in JavaScript, we specialize in. As always if you want to suggest anything for us to have on the podcast or talk about, you can reach out to us at Contact@Frontside.io and like I teased earlier in the podcast, next episode is going to be all about Microstates, the immutable and functional state container, composable model system that we've been building, it's controls as a brainchild for the past two years. That is next episode and I'm really excited about that. It's a really fun API and expressive to build models with. Thank you, Mandy for producing our podcast and we'll see you next episode.

实用英语专门课程，每天十分钟，克服学习障碍、培养语言感觉。 AirMango筹备已久的系列课程，适合正在纠结的你。 课程答疑请在主站对应课程讨论区发表哦～！ 喜欢我们，记得打赏～～ 【课程代码：DOI2C1TUX0720J5R】 主站讨论区：https://www.airmango.net/course/32 Woodye老师的邮箱：woodye.wang#airmango.net 或 findme#woodye.wang。（请将#替换成@） Listen to the tape then answer this question. 　　 What is Rober's job? 　　 听录音，然后回答问题。 罗伯特是做什么工作的? 　　 ROBERT: I am a new student. 　　My name's Robert. 　　 SOPHIE: Nice to meet you. 　　My name's Sophie. 　　 ROBERT: Are you French? 　　 SOPHIE: Yes, I am. 　　 SOPHIE: Are you French too? 　　 ROBERT: No, I am not. 　　 SOPHIE: What nationality are you? 　　 ROBERT: I'm Italian. 　　 ROBERT: Are you a teacher? 　　 SOPHIE: No, I'm not. 　　 ROBERT: What's your ...

Saron Yitbarek: @saronyitbarek | CodeNewbie | Codeland Conference Show Notes: 00:32 - Codeland Conference and The Conference Experience 08:06 - Impostor Syndrome 15:32 - The CodeNewbie Community and Growing Junior Developers 20:06 - Dev Job Red Flags and Should-be Basic Requirements Resources: Codeland Volunteer Form The CodeNewbie Podcast Episode 60: Impostor Syndrome with Alicia Liu Alicia Liu: Overcoming Impostor Syndrome: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Coding Alicia Liu: Impostor Syndrome Is Not Just a Confidence Problem: The dangers of becoming a buzz word CodeNewbie TwitterChat Transcript: JEFFREY: Hello everyone. This is Episode 63 of The Frontside Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Cherewaty, developer here at The Frontside. With me is Robert De Luca, also a developer at The Frontside. ROBERT: Hello, hello. JEFFREY: Our guest today is Saron Yitbarek. She's the founder of CodeNewbies and host of The CodeNewbies Podcast. Hi, Saron. SARON: Hey, how is it going? JEFFREY: Great. ROBERT: Pretty good. JEFFREY: You have a big event coming up, the Codeland Conference. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what's going on there? SARON: Yeah, I'm so excited for Codeland. It is our first CodeNewbie conference. I've done a good amount of speaking at different tech conferences all over the world for a few years now. Ever since the first one I went to, I thought, "We really need one for junior people, for folks who are just getting started," so I kept a running list of everything I hate about conferences and the things that I like about conferences. This is my chance to put it all to the test. It's a two-day conference, single-track and the idea is really to get people excited about all the things they can do with code, especially for our community. The two types of jobs we generally hear about are working in a really, really small startup or working in a really big tech company like a Microsoft or a Google. But we don't hear about working at the hospital or working at the library or the many nonprofits who need technical help. The idea is to bring in people from all different backgrounds, walks of life, solving different problems and showing how code can be a really, really great tool for that JEFFREY: What are some of the things from previous conferences that you really like that you're bringing in Codeland? SARON: I like that you started positive. That's a good start. JEFFREY: We'll go for negative later. SARON: Yeah. [Laughs] Save the best for last. The stuff that I really like about conferences is the community part. It's being able to see a bunch of Twitter avatars come to life for the first time and being able to sit and talk. I feel like conferences are the only place where I can network without feeling gross and without feeling like I'm networking. I feel like I'm genuinely having real relationships and conversations. I think it's because we are going through this experience together and I can say, "Oh, did you hear that talk on this and that? It was so cool." It's a very organic way to start a relationship. That's probably one of my favorite things about conferences. ROBERT: There's a lot of ability in there for small talk about anything because there's so much going on. You could pick anything that you want and you're all experiencing the same thing and you're all kind of vulnerable. I love conferences for that reason. SARON: Yes, exactly and a lot of times, you're in a new city for the first time, you're staying in the same hotel, you're eating the same food. There's so many created and forced points of connection there for you so you can pick anything and start a conversation. ROBERT: Yeah, I really like that. I'm looking at the website right now and I see inspiring talks and it doesn't look like they're all exactly technology specific so I like to see the city life and health. That's super interesting. I want to hear a little bit more about that. SARON: Sure. I wanted to pick topics that are generally not covered as much in tech. Also, I didn't want to start from the technology. I think that a lot of people our community are very excited about the possibilities of tech and what they can do with it. We hear a lot of stories of people who say, "You know, I see this problem in my neighborhood. I see this problem in my community. I see this problem at work and I think that code is a really great way to solve it and to put together these solutions that I have in my head." The way that we're working -- and that's another thing -- you are working very, very closely with all of our speakers and we're starting from the problem space. We're starting from the users and then we end up in a place where the technology becomes the solution. I think that when you start at that more common, human, empathetic element, I think you are much more likely to bring people in, who may not feel as comfortable with the tech because the way we've kind of organized and thought through stuff is focusing on the problems that all humans and all of us can relate to and then saying, "One way we can solve that and address that is through JavaScript or leaf letter," whatever that tool is. ROBERT: That sounds really cool. Is there going to be conference talks that are centered around like how to have proper work-life balance, for example to filling to that health or how I've configured my editor to help with... I don't know, like ergonomics for my hand because I was getting carpal tunnel on my left hand because I was using control too much, that kind of stuff. That sounds really cool. SARON: Yeah, that's actually a really good idea. That would make a really great talk but that's what Day 2 is for. The one thing that I've seen a lot in my own conference experience is I'll watch a talk, I'll listen to a talk and it'll be so inspiring and exciting. But then I go home and it's over and I'm back to my daily grind and all of that energy and positivity just kind of goes away. What we wanted to do was have that first day be focused on all these ideas and projects and the second day transition into what do we do about them. We have a block of workshops from things like crafting your portfolio, to doing really well on a technical interview so really getting your hands dirty and trying out some of those skills. Then we have handouts for people who come in and talk about how they contribute to open source. We do have one actually on work-life balance and learning to code and how you do that so making sure that we leave people with really practical advice and action items and next steps so they feel empowered to go out and be awesome developers. ROBERT: This is awesome. The conference is kind of structured almost like a workshop in a way to where like Day 1, you're going to come in and hear a bunch of things that are going to get you all riled up and inspired and then Day 2, it's like, "This is how we go and implement that." SARON: Yeah. I want to credit Duane O'Brien from PayPal who forced me to think very, very hard about the conference experience. When I first pitched him on this I said, "Hey, I want to do a conference for CodeNewbies," and I have kind of a disconnected list of topics that I wanted to talk about and do address and he said, "You really need to sit down and to think through what is the UX or the experience," like what's the user story. I go to CodeNewbie as a new developer so that I can structure it so it feels like one really cohesive experience. I sat down for many hours and really thought through, "How do I want people to feel? Where do I want them to get excited, to get to work, to be interactive and really participate?" Putting a lot of time into that has really shaped this conference. ROBERT: That is really cool. To be clear this conference is happening in April. SARON: Yep. April 21 and 22 in New York City. ROBERT: Awesome. I think this is really cool. Conferences are awesome but when it was my first conference ever, I just felt overwhelmed because you walk past the cliques of people -- I don't want to say cliques but you see the groups of people that have been there and done it and you're like, "How do I break into that?" If the conference is kind of filled with everybody like that, giving your first conference talk could be a lot easier, just like breaking into the community and talking to people could be a lot easier so I think this whole idea of running a conference for newbies is A+, honestly. SARON: Thank you. ROBERT: I wish this was around whenever I was within the very beginnings of my career. That's really cool. Is there anything, anybody on the outside can do to get involved and help like volunteer? SARON: We have a bunch of volunteer's spots to help out at the day of the conference. I'm really excited because a lot of people who've stepped up are people who aren't necessarily the right attendees. There are folks who have years of experience who just want to wait to join in and do something and help out. We have volunteer spots and I'm happy to include that in the show notes. I can send a link to that. Then we also have a section during our workshop. We have like an optional community coding session where if you don't want to do any specific workshops, you can just bring your laptop and just socialize and code and work on your own stuff. If anyone is interested in the New York City area in participating or just being like a floating, technical mentor of sorts, those are the two ways to get involve. ROBERT: That's really cool. JEFFREY: New Yorkers, get on that. ROBERT: One of the things that I hear you like to talk about and it kind of fits in perfectly with this is this Impostor Syndrome. I think this'll really help with Impostor Syndrome. One of the foundational goals for this is to help people come to grips with that and deal with it better, I guess or peel the onion back on what Impostor Syndrome is. JEFFREY: Let's start there, let's start with what is Impostor Syndrome. Why don't you give your best definition of it? SARON: Sure. I was really excited the very first time I heard about Impostor Syndrome, I think it was maybe four or five years ago and I said, "Oh, my God. That explains so much of my life," and when I really dug into it though, it was slightly different than the way that I initially understood it. The official academic definition of Impostor Syndrome is a way to describe the phenomenon where I have a lot of accomplishments, I'm ten years into my career, I have all these accolades, I'm the CTO senior or whatever of this and that, and even though I have all these very tangible, very real accomplishments and proof of how awesome I am, I have trouble internalizing that. I can't look at that and go, "Oh, I am awesome." I look at that and go, "Ah, that's cute but I'm still not quite there yet." I think that in our community, when we talk about Impostor Syndrome, that's not really what we mean. I think we are describing what happens to everyone when they're learning something for the first time where they say, "Oh, I'm not getting this as fast as I think I should. I know a little bit but I won't know nearly enough to belong." It's really the sense of belonging that we have classified as Impostor Syndrome. We actually had a guest, Alicia Liu on our podcast, I think it was about a year ago, talk about it and it was interesting because the first time that she blogged about it a few years ago, it went viral. Everyone's like, "Yeah, it's totally how I feel," and then she wrote another blog post a couple years later that said, "No, no, no, everybody. That's not what Impostor Syndrome is. You're not impostor. You're actually just a beginner, you're just new, you feel like you don't know what you're doing because you probably don't, which is fine." It's totally fine to not know what you're doing. But the definition of Impostor Syndrome for me has definitely shifted a little bit over the years. ROBERT: It's interesting that the textbook definition and what we kind of experience in the industry are at odds, in a way because the textbook words like you have this well-accomplished person that has done a lot and they don't feel like they're good enough for what they're doing. Then what we have is just like, everybody in the programming community is trying to fit in and they're always trying to learn new things and always feeling like they're not getting it fast enough. I think that's an industry-wide problem. JEFFREY: I kind of always feel like a beginner because everything's changing in our industry so fast, all the time so there's always this disconnect between, "Well, I may have done some things and I may have accomplished some things along the way but I'm still beginner whatever this new tech is," Actually, everyone else is too. It's nice to be reminded of the fact that to be around other engineers who are experiencing that too that we're all in this together and we're all new at this. Nobody is quite expert level at this particular tech stack or this particular way of thinking it. We're all figuring it out as a community. SARON: Yeah. One of my favorite talks that Scott Hanselman does is this really awesome talk about a little bit about his background in JavaScript and the evolution of JavaScript frameworks and he has this whole section where he goes through a list of this really impressive resume and all the stuff that he knows how to do and he deeply understands. But at the end of it he goes, "All of that is completely irrelevant because of Heroku." [Laughter] SARON: None of that matters. ROBERT: "Now, I need to go learn something else." SARON: Yeah, exactly. For me sitting in the audience I was like, "Yes! Heroku," because I'm thinking, "If that's how this guy feels, he's been doing it for so much longer than I have, I have a chance at this." ROBERT: I feel like I send the 'I don't know what I'm doing dog' meme to someone, at least once a week. At least. [Laughter] ROBERT: I feel this often. I think it can be interpreted to the world is changing so much. But I think it's a little different for people that are experienced in the industry versus people that feel who are brand new because, I think when you're brand new, it feels so new and I don't know... uninviting maybe for the Impostor Syndrome? Whereas you get older -- not older -- you get more experience and you become one with the Impostor Syndrome like somebody asked you to do something that you don't know and you're like, "Urgh! Yeah, sure. I'll do it. I'll figure it out somehow," and then go on your way but you still feel that feeling. But when you're a newbie, it's overwhelming almost. Do you know any tactics that kind of help that? I actually have no clue besides like pairing and trying to bring this new person into the programming world and telling them like, "This is kind of how it is." SARON: I think that community is a great way to solve that. When I first learned to code, I taught myself for a few months. I did all the free and relatively cheap online resources and it was so frustrating because it was my first time being in a world where I was in a semi-permanent state of failure until something finally worked and then I got to celebrate that for two seconds. Then we moved on to the next feature, the next bug, the next whatever. Being in this cycle, this vicious cycle of constant failure and having so little time spent, actually enjoying the wins was so different. It was really hard not to internalize that. Especially in my world where my family has no idea what coding is. They still don't really get what I do. I said, "It has something to do with computers and podcasting." My mom is actually going to come up for Codeland and I'm so excited because she can finally see what it is that I'm doing all day. ROBERT: That is awesome. SARON: Yeah. She texted me and she's like, "Yeah, let's bring your family and your friends and your dad can come," and I'm like, "Mom, that's not what this is." [Laughter] SARON: But yeah, your family doesn't really get what you're doing, your friends. If you're not coming from the tech world, if you're transitioning, they have no idea what you're doing so it's super, super lonely and it's really hard to explain. When I transitioned from that into enrolling in a boot camp and doing that for three months, all of a sudden, I had 40, 45 people who were with me every single day for eight to twelve hours at times, who knew exactly what I was going through and who understood everything that sucked about it and everything that was awesome about it. Just knowing that it wasn't me -- I was not the problem, the code was the problem and the journey is the problem -- just changed everything and that's really why I started CodeNewbie to say coding boot camps can be an awesome experience but for a lot of people, they're not accessible. It's three months at least without a job, it's between $12,000 and $17,000 and because there's not always a credit programs, you can't necessarily get like a student loan the way you can for a college. For a lot of reasons, there are really high barriers. I wanted to make it a little bit easier for people to find a support system who are going on that journey. That's what really started CodeNewbie and we did that through the CodeNewbie Twitter chats that we do every Wednesday at 9PM Eastern Time and we do that every single week for an hour, really as an excuse to say, "We're all going to hang out at this place." As long as you have an internet connection, you can join and find friends and find people who know exactly where you're going through and that's really been, for me a huge, huge help. JEFFREY: What kinds of positive experiences and stories have come out of that community? Have you seen actual great change happened through that? SARON: Yeah, definitely. We've had people get internships, we've had people get jobs, we've had people just find out that other people in their neighborhood are also learning to code. I've seen a lot of like, "I see you're in Portland. I'm in Portland too. Oh, my God." A lot of that and then they meet up in person and they pair. We've seen a lot of mentors and mentees pair up through CodeNewbie so it's just been a really great jumping off point for a lot of folks to find those connections and opportunities that run with it. JEFFREY: Through Codeland and through CodeNewbie, one of the goals is to connect junior engineers into their community. What kinds of roles and ways to connect do junior engineers have through the opportunities like this? SARON: A lot of folks are finding internships and apprenticeships and some junior roles. I think what I'm really excited for with our community is the growing number of junior positions that are popping up. If you see the list of the companies, GitHub is the one, I think of top of mine who have started creating like a hybrid coding and community roles for junior people to get their foot in the door, to start to get some real experience under their belt before going for something a little bit more coding, have a little more full time. I think at GitHub they're calling it like a... Oh, I'm going to mess it up. It's not a community manager but it's something around like a community manager position. What I really like about these hybrid roles is the fact that a lot of folks in our community who are transitioning into code have very, very valid, very awesome real world job experience. It's just not technical experience. They've done a lot of sales, they've done some design, they've done marketing, they've done a lot of community building, they've done a lot of customer service, really empathy-centric jobs and roles. With these hybrid positions, they're able to leverage that background a lot for those really awesome communication skills, while also getting a little bit more comfortable in transitioning into a more code-heavy, tech-related position. One thing that I hope happens and frankly, I think just needs to happen, given the high demand for developers is more of these hybrid roles, more of these entry-level junior developer roles. I know that there are apprenticeships and internships that have always existed for computer science degree students that are now transitioning and being a little bit more open to career transitioners as well as people who are students. I'm definitely seeing a lot of shifts in the industry and I hope to see more of that. I hope that more of these awesome people who are really just so excited and so passionate and eyes wide open and very teachable. I think it's one of the things that senior people are really excited about working with our community is knowing that we are very open to being taught, we don't have best practices, we don't have bad habits yet so we're really moldable in that way so I'm really hoping to see that trend to continue where there are more learning positions and also more full time entry-level positions in software. JEFFREY: That's excellent. I hadn't heard of many examples of the kind of hybrid role but I'm thinking back to previous job I had where there was a very large customer service department and several members of that team are like, "We want to start developing." Like they're playing around with code and there definitely could have been an opportunity for them to maybe 75% of their job is the customer service work and what they've been trained to do. Then the other part of their job is like, "Let's start leveling you up and let's start teaching you some things and giving you an opportunity to play and learn." That's an awesome opportunity. SARON: Yeah and that's the thing too is a lot of this is already happening on informal basis. I've heard definitely my fair share of stories and we've actually interviewed people in the podcast who said, "I started in customer service. I started in accounting. I started in this totally unrelated part of my company and then I raise my hand and I said, 'I want this coding stuff.' I started shadowing developers and just going to hang around the engineering team enough that they eventually let me do some documentation work or look at some bugs. Then I slowly transition into a developer position." A lot of this has been happening very organically but I think the more we can systematize it, the more we can formalize that process, the more accessible it becomes for people who just didn't know that they could raise their hand and create those opportunities for themselves. I think the more people do it and the more we can really put rules and structure around programs like that, the more we can bring more people in. ROBERT: That sounds really cool. I have a question. We know what the good situation would be for a newbie to get into. Are there any things that you could advise people that might be looking for the first dev job like anything that are red flags to avoid? SARON: There are so many red flags. That's a good one -- ROBERT: Because I wish I had this when I was starting out. SARON: Yeah. I think one of the hardest parts about being a junior person is just not knowing what it means to be a good developer. It's one of those things when senior people tweet and write blog posts and things about how incompetent they feel a lot of the times and how they feel like they just don't know enough. On the one side, it's really comforting and it's validating but on the other side, for me at least, it makes me panic a little bit because I'm thinking, "Holy crap. If you don't feel like you're good, then how would I ever be good? How would I even know what good is if I'm working towards that?" I think one of the things to look out for is a company that actually has put some thought into what it means to be a good developer? What are best practices? I know this is super subjective and a lot of times it's just based on the product of the company and the values of that space but I think for a junior developer, if you walk into a place where people are so busy running and trying to catch up or trying to keep up that they aren't able to look back and go, "Oh, you're on the right path," or "You're making progress," it's going to be, at the very least frustrating for you and worst case scenario, it'll be impossible for you to grow and really develop and progress in a way that's going to make you happy and fulfilled for your career. I think one of the red flags is -- not so much of a red flag, it's more of one of things to look out for are companies that have tech blogs, that have a podcast, that have really good documentation, that have style guides, that have a mentorship programs, that do brown bag lunches, things like that really show that the companies put a lot of thought into what they value on their engineering team and are much more likely to help you grow in your career. JEFFREY: So that it's more likely that they will have room for you to grow instead of, "Hey, we need some cheap labor." ROBERT: Yeah, exactly and that's the thing. As career transitioners, people who are not used to tech salaries, it's super easy to undervalue yourself. It's very, very easy to say, "I'm just coming from a job that paid $25,000 or $30,000 a year. Yeah, I'll take a $40,000 dev job. That's so much better than what I'm doing." It's like a 50% increase. It's really easy to sell yourself short. I think when you look at a company and see the structure and the thought they put into growth, I think they're much more likely to really invest in you, as opposed to taking advantage of the fact that you're just more than happy to be there. ROBERT: Yeah, I love that. One of the things that Brandon told me when I first started here and I was worried about failing was we didn't invest in Rob the developer, we invested in Rob the person. That was something that really stuck with me that helped like it harkens back to the Impostor Syndrome, it definitely helped with me except being that failures will happen and if I do fail, it's okay because I'm in a space that allows that. Maybe something that a newbie would look out for is software teams that have good process, not shipping broken tests to production or things like that. But also managers that are there to help you and to be there for you and take you on one-on-ones and give you good feedback. I guess, it really just boils down to having a good support structure. SARON: That's the kind of thing that can be hard to evaluate until you're actually there on the team. When you're in the interview, it's like dating. You put on your best outfit, you put on some lipstick, you get your hair done and who knows what you really look like on Wednesday night at midnight, right? [Laughter] JEFFREY: That's when I made my best. I don't know about you. [Laughter] SARON: Some questions that have really helped me out or asking how do you support more junior people. You specifically asking like, "Do you have an education stipend? Do you have a conference stipend? Do you have books? What are the perks?" A lot of times, it can be really straightforward to evaluate. How much they care about your development as a person, if you just look at the perks that they offer? I really love when there is an education thing, when there is a book thing, when they pay for you to go to conferences because that really tells me that you care, not just about getting the most out of my time with you but you really care about my development as a person, as a developer. Those are really good signs. Then I think there are things like when you brought up testing -- that was one of my basic requirements when I was interviewing a few years ago -- and was saying like, "Do you have tests? Why don't you have tests, if you don't?" I've had a lot of answers and they were like, "We didn't really see the point," or, "We just don't do that here." Those are not good reasons to not have test. ROBERT: No. Those are very bad. If you could see the faces we just made, we're like, "Ahhh! No!" Especially for a newbie jumping in, that is your safety net because you read the assertions and you can understand what the code is supposed to do. SARON: Yeah. Same thing with documentation like how much time they spend on documentation? If the answer is, "We don't do that," then the whys are what really become important. If the why is simply, "We're stretched too thin. We're trying to fix that by hiring people like you where we can now focus on documentation," that's a much better answer than, "Ahh! We just don't really need it. We don't see the point." I think when we can ask the people who are looking for jobs, when we can ask the companies more why questions and really get a sense of the way they make their decisions, I think that can be very telling in what type of environment you're getting into. JEFFREY: I add in there. One more thing for junior engineers to look for is vulnerability from future employers that they're willing to own up to their mistakes and talk about their failures. You know that you as a junior person, I also have the ability to do that. You're going to fail. It's going to happen. But if it's an accepted thing and a thing that the company knows how to deal with and talk about and embrace and turn around into successes, then that's a very good thing. All right, thanks for joining us, Saron. Everyone check out CodelandConf.com. That's coming up in April. That's all for The Frontside Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Episode 74: Teacher/Playwright Robert Wing   Robert Wing is not a drama teacher (although he played one for a bit when the drama teacher broke his back) nor does he have any drama training, or even any writing training. He's an English teacher who doesn't even do all that much creative writing in his class. So why is he so good at capturing the teen voice through drama? Listen and find out. Show Notes Robert Wing's Plays World Theatre Video Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP, The Theatrefolk Podcast. I am Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. So, it's really important to us here at Theatrefolk global headquarters that we put plays into the world that capture the teen voice, that the teen voice is out there, and not only that, we want plays that provide an expression of the teen voice – an artistic expression, a theatrical experience. That is key. That is key. That is necessary. That's what we do, that's what we are, and just find when you have this combination in a play – that teen voice, that expression, that theatrical experience – it can be quite magical. And that's one of the reasons I love writing for teens because it's the one place – I'm sure I've shared this before; it's my favorite thing, so, you know, bear with me – but it's the one place that students, where a group of people can be affected by theatre these days. I fully believe. They hear their voice expressed. They realize they're not alone. They can and they do. They make changes in their life because of something they see on stage. That is an amazing thing to play a very small part in. And I think this is the reason why the arts are so important in school because the arts are a method of expression that doesn't happen on a daily basis in the classroom and, oh, there is no other group of people who has so much bottled up inside of them that needs to get out, that doesn't necessarily have a proper channel to get out – if that makes sense. I just think that's so necessary, and this leads so nicely into my interview today. So, today, I'm going to talk to one of our playwrights, Robert Wing. He has two plays with us – Just Girls Talking and Scarlet Expectations of a Drowned Maiden and Two Greek Queens – and Robert is not a Drama teacher. He did play one for a little bit when the Drama teacher broke his back, but he doesn't have any Drama training, and he doesn't even have any writing training. He's an English teacher who doesn't even do all that much creative writing in his class which is stunning when you read his work and you realize he is so good at capturing the teen voice through a theatrical experience. So, how is he able to do that? Well, all right, listen and find out. Lindsay: So, I am here with Robert Wing. Hello, Robert! Robert: Hello! Lindsay: Hi! And so, Robert is a playwright and also a teacher. He has two plays with us. One is called Scarlet Expectations of a Drowned Maiden and Two Greek Queens. Robert: It's a mouthful. Lindsay: It is a mouthful but it's a very explanatory mouthful. I love that it gets all the nooks and crannies of what's going on in that play. And then, also, Just Girls Talking. But, first of all, we sort of want to start off with you and who you are because your day job, you are not a Drama teacher. Robert: No, I am not. I'm an English teacher who, in his second year of teaching, I was walking down the hallway and the principal approached me and said, “You're the Drama teacher!” and I said, “Why?” and he said, “Because the Drama teacher broke her back in a motorcycling accident.” So, I became the Drama teacher for a year and I had no experience with anything, and I had zero budget. And I said, “I have to put on a play?” and he said, “Yes!” and I said, “Okay. Well, I can do this. What resources do we have?” and I found that we had a closet filled with prom dresses from the 1980s that had been donated to the program.

Robert Henke, born 1969, is a composer, sound designer, software developer, installation artist and performer. His music has roots in academic sound research as well as in club culture, and the result is a body of work that is sophisticated yet accessible. Robert Henke releases music under his own name and as Monolake; his performances and interactive installations have been shown at places like the Tate Modern in London, the Centre Pompidou in Paris, MUDAM in Luxembourg, and the Art Gallery of New South Wales, Sydney. Robert is one of the authors of the Ableton Live music software, and teaches as professor for sound design at the University of Arts in Berlin. Remixing Depeche Mode 'Darkest Star': Robert: "I have no fixed scheme. I am looking for an idea, something unique which guides me thru what ever comes next. In the case of Darkest Star it was the lyric". It still sounds like a Depeche Mode track! Robert: "Yes. And it makes me incredibly happy to hear this. It might not be the best Depeche Mode track ever, but at least it has some of the color...and as I said earlier in this interview, color is quite important to me. I think much more in colors then in song structures" Did you ever get any feedback on the remix from the band at all? Robert: "No. unfortunately not." Source: remixing Depeche Mode - interview published on the Monolake site. Artist: Depeche Mode / Monolake RMX Track: Darkest Star Visit the Monolake website here Buy music by Monolake on iTunes Store here copy;2010 Jukebox - spacemusic.nl [ad#post-ad]

Who did you talk to? Robert: I talked to someone interesting yesterday. Bill: Who did you talk to? Robert: I can't remember his name, but I was sitting on the train... Bill: Yeah... Robert: ...and this young man started talking to me. Bill: What did he say? Robert: He said that he was from Thailand and he was studying here in Japan. Bill: You mean he was a university student. Robert: No, he was a high school student. He had a uniform on. Bill: I see, so what did you talk about? Robert: Well, he said that he enjoyed living in Japan, but he did not have much chance to speak in English. Bill: How was his English? Robert: Pretty good. So, he asked me if we could chat while sitting on the train. Bill: That's interesting. It's not everyday that you meet a Thai student in Japan. Robert: That's right. Let's practice... I saw someone interesting last week. Who did you see? I went somewhere fun last month. Where did you go? I ate something strange. I don't feel so good. When did you eat it? I read an interesting book. What did you read? I have to go to England next week. Why do you have to go there? www.eltpodcast.com

Weekend plans Robert: Do you have any plans for this weekend? Bill: I don't know. I might watch a video at home. And you? Robert: I'm going to meet some friends. Bill: What are you going to do? Robert: We might go sailing if the weather is nice. Bill: Sailing, wow! Do you have a sailboat? Robert: No, my friend has one. She goes sailing every weekend. Let's practice. A: We might go for a drive. B: A drive, wow! Do you have a car? A: We might go hunting. B: Hunting, wow! Do you have a gun? A: We might go surfing. B: Surfing, wow! Do you have a surfboard? A: We might buy a house. B: A house, wow! Do you have enough money? A: We might play some music. B: Play music, wow! Do you have a band? Your turn... You answer... What are going to wear tomorrow? What are you are going eat for dinner? Who are you going to meet later? When are you going to go home? Where are you going to go for your next vacation? How are you going to go home? www.eltpodcast.com