Podcasts about robert so

What if you could replace your corporate salary with millions in e-commerce sales? This inspiring episode brings together Robert Gomez, a former senior finance manager at Microsoft turned successful e-commerce entrepreneur, and Kseniia Reidel, an aspiring Amazon e-commerce star. Robert reveals his transformative journey from the corporate world to achieving over $10 million in sales on Amazon and Walmart brand called Kaffe. Kseniia, on the verge of hitting her first seven-figure mark using Project X methods, shares her innovative strategies and experiences in scaling up an Amazon business. From facing the challenge of declining sales due to over-dependence on a single product to launching new product lines in Walmart, Robert and Kseniia provide invaluable insights into the world of e-commerce adaptability. They discuss the critical importance of diversifying product offerings and successfully managing logistics during peak seasons. The conversation underscores the significance of strategic retail placement and the rewards of being flexible in the ever-evolving online and retail marketplaces. We also delve into the game-changing benefits of hiring Virtual Assistants (VAs) for essential tasks like product research. Learn how effective VA onboarding can propel business growth and the impact of diversifying sales channels beyond Amazon, including Walmart, Faire.com, and even TikTok Shop. With strategies for maximizing profit margins and leveraging social media for brand growth, this episode is packed with actionable insights for anyone looking to thrive in the competitive Amazon, Walmart, and e-commerce landscape. In episode 587 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Kseniia, and Robert discuss: 01:08 - Amazon Seller Stories - Catching Up with Kseniia Reidel & Robert Gomez 10:17 - Dependence on Declining Kitchen Appliance Sales 10:24 - Navigating Brand Pivots and Retail Success 20:32 - Walmart Retail Expansion Success Story 22:52 - Product Expansion and Virtual Assistant Hiring Success 26:17 - High Margin Product Strategy Growth 29:01 - Product Launch Strategy at Walmart 36:55 - Amazon Seller VA Time Management 40:01 - Exploring TikTok Shop for their E-commerce Business 41:12 - Retail Expansion and Product Development 44:04 - Brand Expansion Strategy Discussion ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got two guests back on the show who've never met each other, but they've both been on here before Robert, who's generated over $10 million of sales with his brand on Amazon and Walmart, and Kseniia, who used Project X strategies to launch her first product, and now this year she's about to hit seven figures for the first time. How cool, is that? Pretty cool I think. Not sure on what main image you should choose from. Or maybe you don't know whether buyers would be interested in your product at a certain price point. Perhaps you want feedback on your new brand or company logo? Get instant and detailed market feedback from actual Amazon Prime members by using Helium 10 Audience. Just enter in your poll or questions and, within a short period of time, 50 to 100 or even more Amazon buyers will give you detailed feedback on what resonates with them the most. For more information, go to h10.me/audience.   Bradley Sutton: forward slash audience. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that's completely BS-free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. And we've got a couple of serious sellers back on the show Robert for the second time, Kseniia for the third and a half time. We had her on a little Prime Day special here. But welcome back to the show, guys, your first time meeting each other was today. Right, you had no idea who each other was.   Robert: No idea.   Bradley Sutton: I love doing that. I love bringing different sellers who maybe under other circumstances, might never have known each other. So it's really good to see that people from all walks of life have success on Amazon. Now, if you want to get the backstory of Robert, his first episode was on 448. So we're not going to go too much into his backstory here. Maybe we'll touch a little bit on it, but 448 is a good one to see his episode. And then Kseniia has been on. I think her first was episode 320. And then she was back on episode 441. So we're really close to Robert's episode there, talking about how she 10X her sales from that first episode today. I'm not sure what we're gonna completely know about. We're gonna catch up, completely know about. We're gonna catch up with them might be up, might be down, but hey, we keep it real here. We're not here to make it seem like, uh, everybody who comes on is gonna 10x their, their, their sales. That's not why we brought her on the last time. But uh, let's see, let's see what happens. So, first of all, Robert, you know, like, like I, you know, the one thing that maybe people who listen to your episode, uh, that stood out was how you were still working at I don't remember it was like Microsoft or something like that for years and years, even though you were already a successful Amazon seller and that you had just around. That time finally was like, all right, I'm going to quit the day job. So you know, you have a couple of years maybe under your belt not working for the man, as it were. So how has that been?   Robert: How's that transition been from so long being like the corporate world and stuff and now being your own boss, kind of I think last time I was on was around that time that I had just quit or was about to quit or something. But yeah, I was at Microsoft for a few years. My background is in corporate finance and I started Amazon, kind of like a side venture, back in 2017, 2019. I launched the current brand that I have, but I sort of held on as long as I could, had a whole team and everything, before I finally quit. And around that time was when we were going into physical retail and we had got our first sort of big contract. So you know, it was kind of just time. The amount of time it was taking, the amount of efforts it took to execute that program just had to do it.   Robert: And it's now been a little under two years and it's amazing, I mean just the fact. I mean I love I was there for a reason, you know, and corporate served this purpose. You know, I think I'm always able to say that I used to work for Microsoft and that's kind of level setting very easy to tell somebody. But at the same time, obviously it just wasn't for me. From the day I joined Microsoft, I already knew that I wanted to quit. I already had the Amazon business and everything. It was just, you know, really just the golden handcuffs, as they call them. But yeah, haven't thought about going back any single time in this past year plus. So, yeah, thankfully, you know, any day that I get to do this has really been a blessing. It really doesn't feel like work.   Bradley Sutton: What would you say were the effects of it as far as on your Amazon business? Like having more time to focus? Like, did it stress you out more? Was it the opposite? Were you able to take care of things that might have slipped into their cracks? Were you able to scale faster? You think? What were the differences on that part of things?   Robert: It's hard to quantify it in that sense. But basically you know the role I had at Microsoft. I was a senior finance manager. My team was in the west coast at the headquarters, but I I'm based in the east coast, so it wasn't the amount of necessarily time it was taking. Quite frankly, you know, I had a pretty sweet sort of setup where I didn't take a lot of time right, and that's what made it even harder, because the more you get paid and the less you kind of work.   Of course that just sounds like a dream, right, if I just, you know, mentioned it to friends or just talk to people about it, like what are you doing? What are you thinking of putting it for? But it was just the mental sort of real estate, the real estate it took in my mind, even if I only had one meeting that day or two meetings that day. It was just kind of thinking of like oh, I have that meeting coming up, or just like I have to do this, or the feeling of like not giving something.   Robert: My all you know I'm kind of like all or nothing type of guy and so like just having to, like almost feel fake in the way that I showed up to work and it's. They still thought I was doing a good job. You know we had reviews and I was kind of doing OK and good on them, but internally I just felt terrible, you know, and then I just felt like if I could focus all the time, you know, on Cafe, it would unlock a lot of other things and it has, you know, like it has allowed me to get the team into more of a rhythm in the way that we run meetings and run cadences for certain product development, for sales, et cetera, whereas before it could have been interrupted at any given moment, right, because basically I had a job so I could always take that backseat.   Bradley Sutton: So yeah, it's been a ride, All right. Interesting. I think that's something that Amazon sellers out there, once they hit a certain level if they were working, you know is like a universal question All right, at what point do I do I, you know, give up the steadiness of income and the reliability and the insurance and things like that and go, you know, you know, focus solely on my, my Amazon business? For the people who already are out of out of the, the people who already are out of the corporate world once they start their Amazon business, well, they're just all in from day one, kind of, so they don't have that option. But I think the answer is it's different strokes for different folks. You're probably waiting the longest, more than anybody I've known, wasn't it like, even after you started your, your amazon business? Like a good three, four years um?   Robert: yeah, it was about ready to get multiple seven figures at that by that time yeah, yeah, um, we had sold a total of uh, maybe like 12 million or so, um, before I quit, and we rolled, I quit, we rolled out 4,000 Walmart stores and then I quit, basically yeah he was still rolling out 4,000 Walmart stores with his product.   Bradley Sutton: He's like you know what. Yeah, I think it's time now, but that just shows you that's not the wrong choice.   Robert: There's other people who wait after one month, and they're ready.   Bradley Sutton: That's not necessarily the wrong choice. It's whatever works for you.   Robert: There was no room for error. If I messed any of that up, not only would I need a job I would be way in that way, so there's one way to look at it but also the focus was there. That was my full time job. You know, I always say Amazon was my full time job, and then I had kind of a side side job in corporate.   Bradley Sutton: All right. So now going back to Kseniia, first of all, I'm not sure you know I don't remember the kind of things we talk about all the time. My memory is so bad. But then you know, Mhel gave me some notes this wasn't on there but before you started on Amazon like I do have in my notes here that you were doing like selling collectibles on eBay from Russia and things like that, but at any point, while you were doing Amazon, did you also have a day job or you were 100% your e-commerce business from day one?   Kseniia: 100% e-commerce.   Bradley Sutton: A great contrast I didn't even plan that, but is perfect. It is to have a. To have the contrast here now. I remember one thing that was, you know, kind of like the highlight of your old episodes is is the way that you discovered uh and launched some of those first products that brought you success was like using the project x uh method. So that brand that you started back in you know 2021, 2022, whenever it was uh are you still selling that brand today, the successful one?   Kseniia: Yep, still selling. I've had to change a little bit the product line and expand it but, yeah, the first product since from which one it started still there, still selling. It was exactly three years ago, actually, in August 2021.   Bradley Sutton: Wow, okay, perfect, perfect. Now, the last time we talked back, in 2023, uh, I think some of your closing comments about your goals was hey, you wanted to kind of like focus on, on building the brand a little bit more. I mean building the brand in the figurative sense, not, you know, not just expanding their products, but like actually building a, a brand. And how, what did you do to try to do that and how has that, those efforts, worked out?   Kseniia: Well, the first thing I want to talk about is what happened after last we talked. Is that in 2023, I lost like 40 percent of my sales? Wow, let's keep it real here.   Bradley Sutton: Let's keep it real Well, what was it an attack or just you know the competition? Did you make a huge mistake or what? What happened? Uh, did you make a huge mistake or what? What, what, what happened?   Kseniia: yes, I made a huge mistake, totally my fault, because when I started building this brand, this brand was focused on accessories for a kitchen appliance, and what I didn't think about is that my sales are going to be totally dependent on the sales of that kitchen appliance. Under no, no, no circumstances I can sell more accessories than the appliances sold. And so what happened is, in 2021 and 2022, the appliance sales were growing and they were doing a lot of social media, so my sales were growing, with me not really doing anything, like I didn't do any social media for my brand. But in 2023, from the beginning of 2023, for whatever reason, their sales started dropping like every month, less and less and less, and by the end of the year, I think they also lost like 40 or 50 percent of their sales and your sales were 100 reliant on theirs, yeah, the same. And anything I was trying to do. I tried to do social media, I tried to do Google ads at an agency, but nothing really was just a waste of money, basically because their product wasn't selling, so my products were not selling and my brand was 100% focused on accessories around that kitchen appliance. Wow, okay, so like I had eight products, I think, by the end of 2022. And they all were related to that kitchen appliance.   Bradley Sutton: Interesting, interesting. And so then you're like how do you pivot from something like that? It's like you know, your whole concept of your brand is around this one thing. And here you are trying to build your brand, but then like, wait a minute, this is not the direction I need to keep going, or else I'm going to keep going down yeah, I spent several months on trying to think about what to do about it.   Kseniia: I was like, oh, do I just dump it all and just start it all over? But then, like I had a patent pending for two of the products because they were selling really well and it was really my like design idea that I totally made from scratch, I was like I don't really want to dump it because, who knows, maybe like next year, their sales will go up again, you don't know. So I was thinking about it and I just decided to expand into the products that not a hundred percent related to this kitchen appliance that but can be used by the same people but also can be used by other people as well. So kind of exit the sub niche and get in a little higher niche. So they're still all related, but now I'm not tied to that kitchen appliance.   Bradley Sutton: Now, did it help at all that you were in that niche already to launch these other products? Were you able to market to your existing customers at all, or was it almost like starting from scratch again?   Kseniia: No, the first product that I launched after that was not 100 related to the other brand um was made for I actually got the idea from the customers of that brand, but it was also being bought by all other people. So and sometimes I see that the um, some of the purchases that are made, they're made like two products bought together yeah, the one for the brand and not not for the brand. So the first one kind of easy, and then I started expanding a little bit more outside of the something totally not related to that brand.   Bradley Sutton: Okay all right. All right, we're going to come back to you because I want to uh, double click on a couple of those things you're talking about. But now back to Robert. You know you had mentioned how, in in around the timing of the last episode, you're launching Walmart and there are thousands of stores. Um, I would assume you know we're here in in august that it's been over a full year now of Walmart store sales. So how would you, how would you say that that's gone? Like what kind of gross sales we talking about just in in stores on Walmart, and are we only talking one skew?   Robert: Yeah, so we launched, uh, maybe, yeah, 16 months ago or so, with two skews uh right away. Basically, one of those items was the intro offer. What they call that at walmart is basically the the cheapest option of that product at walmart right, in this case a coffee grinder, and from the time it went live it just started really selling. Just basically, we could see from the data like Nielsen data, which is like official retail data, not counting Amazon and e-commerce we could see that our product was the best-selling grinder in the us, like across all retail points, just because of that walmart placement, right like. So, imagine walmart being, you know, the kind of highest volume retailer and you're the cheapest in uh or the intro uh pricing there, so that that, you know, had what was kind of like a big boom.   Robert: Uh, struggle to kind of just make sure you know, basically keeping up with their projections were a lot lower than we actually did end up selling. Uh, and you know I kind of had already predicted that we would sell, about you know, more than they predicted, just cause that product did well in any other channel that we put it Um, and so, yeah, just kind of stabilizing that right, so making sure that through the holidays.   Bradley Sutton: I would always remember your uh, remember your Instagram post.   Robert: You would be going around to Walmart's all over the country you're on vacation stuff and go to the shelf where your product is and look it's empty, like we're sold out, like it's a fly, literally flying off the shelves yeah, so that's what was happening, you know, and so because it had one facing, meaning it's on the shelf once, instead of like having two, two of them and it would sell kind of fast enough that basically it wasn't. It wasn't able to maximize what it could do, right, because it wasn't available fully right. So we were missing, you know, maybe 20, 25 percent of sales there until, like, the Walmart kind of system catches up with it, like, uh, their forecasting system, um, but yeah, it's basically uh, it's bigger than an amazon business, uh, it's a high seven figures kind of deal and we're counting wholesale costs, so like not the actual retail, so it kind of would be bigger. And the thing with Walmart there is, you know it's compared to amazon it's huge. You know, like it's guaranteed you're a vendor, there's no middle sort of person there and just you know they place every week orders for 42 distribution centers, so like, basically every week we get 42 orders and it goes to other distribution centers, and then this May, so basically a year later or a little before that, they launched one additional item, so they added one more to the two and now there's three. And I also went to another line review for next May to hopefully add a couple more items. So it's just kind of working on the retail side there, but separately.   Robert: I was actually in Puerto Rico yesterday. I was, as I was telling you, meeting with the Walmart Puerto Rico team because they're rolling out, uh, basically a whole section of like 15 items, um, like they're, they're actually like taking up a whole section, um, and that, you know, even though there's not that many stores in Puerto Rico, it's a, it's a huge kind of way of proving it out, like you know, hey, you know, we did this over there. How about, you know, over here, right, right, two other retailers in the us, and that's kind of where the strategy is. So certainly ups and downs, you know it's not always, uh, rainbows and butterflies, as they say. Uh, that side of the business is great. That's what we've been focusing on for a while. But, uh, there's amazon as well. Not such a pretty picture there, but we're still going at it strong, obviously we're gonna want to uh, you know, uh listen to your story on amazon.   Bradley Sutton: But just going back to the Walmart you might have said this in the last episode but, like I said, I forget things how was it that you even got into Walmart before? Did you start to sell on Walmart.com? Did a buyer at Walmart take notice of you because you were crushing it on Amazon, amazon? You know that's probably the hardest thing for somebody who's interested to get in Walmart brick and mortar is getting on the radar of the buyers and actually getting you know in a media unless you'd, like you know, win a contest or do that uh open call or something like that. But how was it that you were even able to get your foot in the door with Walmart?   Robert: Yeah, so a little combination of a couple of things you mentioned, but essentially we have a broker, okay, and a broker, what a broker does, and it wasn't the first broker we had, by the way, and we have one for Target we have. You know, these brokers kind of charge a single digit percentage of sales if they ever sort of get you in the door. Some charge a monthly retainer. In my opinion I wouldn't go with those. You know, the ones that are like serious in my opinion more are the ones that charge you a percentage only if they ever get you in the door, right, um, and so we had tried one. It didn't work out. I mean, it's the same as us reaching out to the buyers, which we had also done, you know, and they don't really reply. You know, like all these retailers at least the, the biggest retailers they have once a year kind of reviews, right. So if you kind of get invited to the review, then maybe you they'll review your product, but that has to do with whether they're wanting to change whatever they have on the shelves, whether they're open to whatever you have, just like a lot of different things. Like the most common thing to happen is that they don't change anything on the shelf Right If it's kind of working or. You know, their jobs depend on the performance of what's on the shelf Right. There's not unlimited amounts, so they're very picky on what they select in. So that's why it's kind of like an uphill battle to get into the retail shelves, and more nowadays that everyone's pushing for conf right. If anything, they'll tell you oh, go try conf first. That's just kind of like a cop out to say like we don't want you on the shelf at the moment.   Robert: So how it worked with us is basically we had worked with a broker. It didn't kind of work out, just no motion there, and not to their fault. But another broker reached out and said hey, you know I can try to reach out, and he did, and it was regarding our coffee grinders and they basically said you know, you can come to Venville to present it at our line review in June of that year and they had seen the product on Amazon. So yeah, I think we were bestsellers or just doing really well compared to other things they had on the shelf and they invited us for that one product and of course when we went I presented other products Right. So you have like 30 minutes. You set up on a table and it's like go, go, go, and after that just kind of I thought it would be like a lesson learned sort of like. You know, maybe come back next year like a good job. You know, at least I learned how to do this thing. But they came back with, you know, questions that led me to believe that they were really interested, like, hey, you know, would you be able to like fulfill a large number of stores if we allocated you that? And, and you know, I just said yes, you know, I never.   Robert: Even that was our first retailer. You know, usually they try you out with a hundred stores or you maybe get into another independent retailer and then you kind of work your way up. But it was one of a weird case where our first retailer was, you know, every Walmart. So it's kind of like you have to learn how to execute the biggest one first, and so now we feel confident that any other retailer, it's kind of like it'll be okay. You know, capacity, volume, just processing the orders. It was a beast at first but yeah, that's how it worked out. Okay, cool, a long sales cycle.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Interesting, interesting. Now, switching back to Kseniia, you know, like in the old you know I remember some of your other products the way you would kind of find and or launch was, you know, like through Facebook groups and things like that. Like, are you still using that method to like? You know now that you kind of are going a different path, like, is this Facebook play a role, or how are you finding where the needs are to launch these new products? And then, how are you getting the initial eyeballs on your product once you do launch?   Kseniia: Yeah, the first one that I launched after switching of being the accessories for other brand that was also from a Facebook group. That also was from the same people. But then after that I realized that I need to find a VA finally, because it was only me before that and it got kind of hard when I got to like almost close to seven figures.   Bradley Sutton: Remind everybody what you did uh, you know to do that so they can kind of have a for those who didn't hear the last episode, so they can have a picture of your strategy here so before, uh, I was finding product ideas, I was on the Facebook groups for that kitchen appliance and I would just see what customers say.   Kseniia: Sometimes, a lot of times, because it was a new brand and it was like, basically no accessories for this kitchen appliance they would just say, oh, have anybody, anybody seen this product or this product that we can't find anything like this on amazon? We really want it and I would go like Esty or eBay, I don't know. I check Pinterest and I would see people try to make it themselves from, like I don't know, pieces of wood or something like that. So I realized, okay, well, it's great, then you check the search terms and people actually searching for this product, but there is no options available on Amazon. So that's how all the other products before were and then.   Bradley Sutton: So what did you hire the VA to do? Just start, you know, just be in all these Facebook groups and Reddits and stuff like that trying to get information, or what are they doing?   Kseniia: no, the first thing that I did when I hired her, I told her she needs to learn the Project X.   Bradley Sutton: Nice.   Kseniia: I gave her the Project X because I told her that's exactly how I learned how to search for products. So the first thing we did is that she watched the whole Project X Love it. Because I wanted her to learn how to find products, the way how the Project X was done. Not starting from the product itself, but let's say starting from the product itself. But I'll say started from the keyword. Yes, so searching for the opportunities and not searching for something that already exists, and you'll be surprised. I think it's in two months I don't remember how many she actually found, but the one that we're actually going with in two months it's like 10 or 15 products, something like that that's already passed, like we're getting the samples.   Robert: Oh, wow.   Kseniia: So that's just not the product ideas. That's actually what we will be launching.   Bradley Sutton: That's awesome.   Kseniia: So yeah, she's really great Okay.   Bradley Sutton: How did you find her? I think that's another thing that people wonder about is hey, how do I find good VAs who are actually going to produce, Like, did you go to a service? Did you just put a notice up, or?   Kseniia: I just went on a website. I forgot how it's called like jobsph or something like that. And yeah, I just did a post that I'm looking for a VA with like a specific requirements and I actually did like a an attention test, let's say so. I put it a note and in the middle of the resume and tell them that's how they should name the email when they reach out to me. And you'll be surprised, out of maybe a hundred people or more that reached out to me, maybe like five only actually read yeah the joke post and they put it the and that was like the first test and then they did a task trying to find a product.   Bradley Sutton: So hey, there you go, Robert. There's a tip for your, your next hiring thing. Like uh, dude, that's a good test to weed out half of the applications right there. I like it. I like it, okay, cool. So now you know, now that You've launched some products that kind of are not reliant on that one appliance, what do you project? Is your sales going to be by the end of this year on the trajectory you're going now?   Kseniia: Yeah, I think we will definitely hit the seven figures this year, so it should be better than so. So far, the best year was in 2022, when we got very close. I think it ended with like nine80,000 or something like that, and I think we should be more. Yeah, it should be more this year.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome, awesome Congrats.   Robert: You got to buy $20,000 worth of goods at that point. Yeah, just at the end of the year just like buy your own product.   Bradley Sutton: Come on, I mean you got to hit that number, but hey, that's good, you're going to do it without having to game the system like that this year. Awesome, Robert. Amazon. Let me look at my notes here. In your first year I saw you did $2 million on Amazon. You had grown it to like $4 million, which was pretty much Amazon.   Robert: Only If we were just to take the Amazon, not the Walmart. Are you up down? We're probably slightly down. I would say maybe 15% or so, 10 to 20. Part of that was our own doing. We had to prioritize. If we ran out of stock, it's not going to be at Walmart stores, it's going to be at Amazon, and it's happened a couple of times and know, and that's kind of affected. We had a really kind of high margin sort of products that we've launched and one of them did extremely well and we just haven't been able to keep it in stock because it is a new item to our supplier. But, like as an example, we launched it basically like month one, with no reviews, you know, just like our branding and running ads. We did almost like a quarter million dollars of sales and it was profitable, which is crazy. You know, usually we're used to losing money, you know, even after a while sometimes, uh, but you know that kind of like margin. There's certain like we're basically focused more on things that make margin, you know, or things that will basically help us push sales through our website, through other products, or things like that, like our hero, where we include an insert card and they're able to buy other accessories from us. But yeah, certainly, strategy slightly changed.   Robert: Within Amazon, advertising basically just kills a lot of the margins, but we see it as a brand awareness exercise as well. We have a lot of products on the roadmap that are higher margin and just kind of like uh, you know, complementary products and stuff that you know I think it's a survival of the fittest on amazon. You know, thankfully, we have always tried to open new channels. You know it wasn't just Walmart stores, you know, for a while we've done all the dot coms, you know, even as vendors like Target dot com, Walmart.com, Macy's Home Depot, fair dot com If anyone out there listening, maybe I'll save it for the 60 second tip. But Fair dot com, yeah, just, you know, all the channels start adding up, you know, and those are higher margin than and where you don't have to run ads and stuff.   Bradley Sutton: So how are you dealing with the year of the fees? It seems you know Amazon, you know 2024 new inbound fees and low inventory fees, which it sounds like you probably hit because you keep running out of stock, you know, on some items and refund fees and stuff like that. Like how have you been able to maintain your profitability? Or have you been able to maintain your profitability, you know? Have you had to raise prices or what's going?     Robert: On no, we just, we have not maintained the profitability, it's just straight. But not on amazon wise. You know, thankfully, the retail side for us just, you know, pays the bills and more. You know thankfully. But uh, we see amazon, as hey it's, it's tough for everybody. You know, thankfully we have another side of the business that it's actually our priority and you know we're still focused on Amazon. But we didn't keep the profitability. Necessarily we can't always just raise prices because we are basically selling on a lot of other channels, so it disrupts a buy box potentially and it's just one of those things where we just have to optimize on the ad side and just straight up, not focus on some SKUs that are, you know, kind of loss leaders or could be loss leaders.   Bradley Sutton: Now I'm looking, I'm just looking with Helium 10 here on your store page with X-Ray, and I see actually you know there's a number of products here that you've launched in the last year. Like I see it, says March of 2024. I see another one here, June of 2024, this coffee scale with a timer. Why, somebody, that's gotta be a serious person. You're weighing your coffee and you got a timer on it, but whatever. So there's all these unique products.   Kseniia: It's at Walmart.   Robert: So that product is at 3,000 Walmart stores. Wow so wait, hold on stores. Wow so wait, hold on, hold on.   Bradley Sutton: It just says you launch this in June. So does that mean that you actually launched a product on Walmart before Amazon? I love that. You see, I keep trying to tell people that exists. Some people say, oh no, Walmart is the opposite. You can expect less sales unless you get into the stores. But there are definitely people out there who launch on Walmart first. But anyways, my point was I see at least four or five products here that were launches here. So obviously you're actively, you know um, trying to expand the brand, you know. I asked Kseniia the same question how are you finding these, these new opportunities, like? What are you doing to, like, do your market research to say you know what? This is the next product we're going to try.   Robert: Yeah, so a lot to do with I mean doubling down on what works, for example, the categories that are working. We introduce either variations or new models if we see fit, and then we get a lot of feedback from retailers and pitches that we do to retailers. So we're in line reviews all the time with different retailers and they tell us we like this product, we don't like this product, or potentially, I think we launched maybe like 20 or 15 or 20 espresso sort of accessories, the scale being one of them this year, and that was from, basically, feedback from a Walmart buyer saying, hey, you know, it'd be nice in the future if we have some espresso tools you know that's kind of a trending category, or whatever. And we sort of said tools, you know that's kind of a trending category, whatever. And we sort of said you know, yeah, we have those kind of coming anyway. Yeah, you know. And then we went and looked for those. So we you know I have a lot of products that I've already tested and stuff, you know, every, basically everything. We're a coffee brand, so anything around the coffee categories, you know, are sort of constantly keeping my eye out and our factories also like innovating with us. Um, but yeah, it's, it's.   Robert: It's a lot of prototyping for retailers, rather than launching on amazon and seeing if it works and then sort of uh, then going to pitch to the retailer. So it's a lot more capital efficient, just sort of prototyping things or final sampling and then uh, sort of having them available on your catalog and then if a retailer wants it, then of course you go to mass production, you go kind of bigger on that and double down on amazon um, but yeah, on the amazon side for us, you know one thing that you probably wouldn't see on the numbers there, but we're we've been working with a 1p partner where we basically have a lot of margin on but we don't necessarily account for the sales through our account, you know. So, like our item wouldn't necessarily show that but it says sold by amazon. So there's some. We just started that as of like a month and a half ago or so, uh, and it's been kind of working really well, um, certainly making a lot of profit, and they're selling uh as dot com, as amazoncom. So that is sort of how we're mitigating the risk, just sort of looking for ways where we're able to keep profitability, because you know categories that need our products. You know our brand fits in well.   Bradley Sutton: Now one thing. The last question for you, before I go back to Xenia, is I don't know the specifics, but I used to supply Walmart to other companies I've worked at. But it's not like they pay you a month in advance or even they pay you up front. There's different terms that Walmart needs and then when they're ordering what? 50 units for 4,000 stores or 20 units for 4,000 stores everybody can do the math out there. We're talking a sizable chunk of change. How do you manage cash flow when you're almost having to front Walmart and some of these other things like and have such a big business with so much turnover? How do you have the capital to sustain, to keep it, to keep it going?   Robert: yeah, that's the part that hasn't been easy for sure. You know, financing environment altogether has gotten, you know, tougher for everyone. You know, obviously, the higher interest rates and stuff. I just bootstrapped this so of course even harder right, and I'm in a sort of categories that are, you know, some would say commoditized, unless you have like strong brand but you definitely are competing against legacy brands that are sold by amazon. So basically a lot of competition in that way. Um, so, to scale it, it's not like I had extra sort of profit margins to just dump around and make mistakes and sort of, you know, go everywhere. So it definitely took some, you know, strategic there, partnering with the.   Robert: I would say the biggest lever is our supply chain terms. You know our supplier terms are almost unheard of when I tell even you know bigger, much bigger sellers. Obviously I've taken on debt, you know, um, and that's been helpful, you know. You know decent amount of debt, but the largest chunk that allowed to scale at that point has been the supplier term. So think of uh, you know, usually you pay your suppliers maybe like 30 deposit and then the 70 maybe when the goods goods arrive at the US. You know if you're lucky, you know if not when it left China. We pay 15% deposit and then we don't pay the 85%, sometimes until 90 days after the goods arrive in the US. So basically, we sell it to Walmart.   Robert: Walmart pays us in 55 days and then we go and pay our supplier essentially. So at any given time we owe our supplier so much money that it also makes a relationship so that we basically don't have to. We do, uh, at least once for all we don't have to do inspections on containers because they're not going to mess it up. You know, if they mess it up, we owe them so much money that it's in their best interest to not. You know, uh, so it keeps that relationship always kind of lopsided in in this way and, quite frankly, is the cheapest financing.   Robert: You know that that one can get right. It's just basically your supplier taking on the brunt of it. So at some point earlier this year, yeah, like because of the terms with Walmart, basically Walmart owed us like maybe a million and a half dollars or something, which is crazy. You're like, okay, in the next 55 days every they're going to be paying some amount. But then we also owe the supplier like hundreds and hundreds of thousands, and then over there, this and then you have to order another container because you know Walmart's going to reorder and they're not telling you that, but if it's on the shelves they're going to start reordering as soon as it starts trickling in. So it's just a huge risk really. But when it's Walmart stores, I mean you just have to take it. You know I always said I'm either going to make this thing, you know work kind of do it big or leave a huge hole in the ground of where it was once. But it's business. You know, I try to remove the outcome from me. You know me, or my sort of self-worth, I guess   Bradley Sutton: Now, Kseniia, a similar question to you is you, as a smaller up-and-coming seller, how have you been able to deal with all the new fees? Have you changed your strategy about how you send stuff to Amazon at all, or anything else like about how you send stuff to Amazon at all or anything else, or are you just kind of like you know, just taking the new fees and raising prices, or how are you dealing with it?   Kseniia: Well, generally when I did the product research before and now we look only for the products that look at like 40% profit and obviously that was the profits that I had in 2022. And after all the fees, it just dropped to like 23, probably percent, 23, 25%. I'm very careful with PPC right now. I'm not trying to overspend on it Plus on the storage, so I'm basically storing for free the products in China after they're being manufactured, so I'm saving money on that.   Bradley Sutton: I think this is interesting. A lot of sellers are kind of like maybe in your shoes right now, maybe just by themselves, or maybe they have one or two VAs. Tell me, how many hours a week are you putting to your Amazon business? How many hours a week is your VA doing? And then what are you guys doing? How does your week look? How do you break apart the responsibilities?   Kseniia: So actually I hired the first VA in April, I think and I liked so much that I hired a second one, like a month ago. But she's only responsible for like social media because we started doing TikTok, uh and a lot of like UGC content, um. So the first VA she does a full time, so 40 hours um a week, and the second one is a part-time for now because I don't know how it's gonna go, because I don't think all the products are fit for like TikTok are you doing TikTok shop or just like promoting?   Bradley Sutton: yeah, TikTok shop. Okay, how's that.   Robert: How's that working out for you?   Bradley Sutton: I'll go back to the employees or the time management one, but how's TikTok?   Kseniia: Well nothing really. Yeah, we just we just started like three weeks ago, I think four weeks ago ago. So she's reaching out to a lot of influencers and through the affiliate program, through TikTok, so I don't know how many she probably reached out to like 200 a day or something like that. So some reply, some don't. So we've just been sending out some sample. I think we only got like one video or something like that yet posted, so not much yet.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, one employee is specifically doing social media for you, including TikTok shop, and the other one is she just doing the product research, like you mentioned before, she has other tasks for you as well.   Kseniia: Yeah, so the first one. She initially was hired specifically for product research, but then we got to the point where we got so many products that we found but there is not too much money, even though I've taken out the loan, but still there is not enough Like. But there is not too much money even though I've taken out the loan, but still there is not enough like. I don't feel confident yet to get like a huge loan. So we still have to launch like one or two products at a time. I can't do like go and launch all 15 at the same time, because the problem I ran into maybe six months ago is a launch product and it became. It started selling a lot better than I expected to.   Bradley Sutton: So cash flow. Same thing we're talking about with uh, with Robert there, yeah yeah, of course.   Kseniia: Well, at the moment where I started losing sales, obviously I didn't have any profits. So that's the moment when I had to decide what I'm gonna do if I'm just closing it all down or am I taking a loan. So I decided to get a loan and start launching new products, and then it got better. But also I use a lot of credit cards just because I get points. I figured out the right credit cards to use because I travel a lot. Then I honestly don't remember last time I paid for a ticket. It's all always done through points.    Bradley Sutton: So how do you, how are you paying your suppliers with a credit card? Cause not all, not everybody, knows how to do, how to do that.   Kseniia: Uh, so I just do it through Alibaba, but I negotiated a terms with them where they covered Alibaba fee, so I'm not worried about that. Okay, cool, but that way I get a bunch of points every month.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, because I know you and your husband like to travel a lot too. So you're saying all those are. Are you business class on everything too? Most of the times, but not for the short flights.   Kseniia: Okay cool, cool for the longer ones.   Bradley Sutton: So, Robert, as I'm talking to Kseniia, she was talking about TikTok shop. Here I'm looking and I see you're on TikTok shop too. So how, how long have you been on there and how's that been working for you?   Robert: yeah, I think we maybe, uh, earlier this year or something like that. Um, again, we have, uh, there's certain products that we know work a lot better for TikTok shop and we see it. You know, there's a concentration on a few products basically that work very well there. You have one of them pulled up. We just had inventory issues on those products. Basically, those products are really hot, kind of everywhere we put them and we really haven't been able to push as hard as we can on TikTok shop, but certainly everywhere we put them and we really haven't been able to push as hard as we can on tiktok shop but certainly are gathering a lot of affiliate content.   Robert: Um, and sales are starting to come in. You know, uh, we see it as a big kind of big potential there. Um, certainly so. We're. We're reloading on inventory on those and, and for those that didn't know, uh, fulfilled by tick tock, I think basically, and for those that didn't know, fulfilled by TikTok, I think, basically they're subsidizing shipping. So you essentially make more margin on certain products as long as you get them above a certain threshold. So, yeah, it's one of the channels that we're focusing on. That's newer, okay.   Bradley Sutton: You know we talked before about your goals. So, like what are your goals now for the future of your brand, now that you have like a different direction than the last time we were talking? Like what are you trying to accomplish at the end of this year other than hitting seven figures? What's next year look like for you?   Kseniia: We're just going to try to launch as many products as we can. Our goal is probably two to three products every couple of months, so like a product a month. So that why we try to develop um. At the same time we're developing like five products, because you never know how it's gonna go um and, of course, do more social media, do more content, just to, you know, to get the, the brand name out there. Uh, we just started doing Shopify, like a month ago or no, a week ago, I think. I just started working on a website um.   Bradley Sutton: Are you launching any other platforms? Obviously you're on amazon. You're on TikTok shop. You just said you're on Shopify. Are you on Walmart?   Kseniia: or other places. Not yet, not yet.   Bradley Sutton: But yeah, I'm thinking about going there too, as well, now you've got an inside connection at walmart if one of your product takes off somebody who can help you out here, Excellent. What is your favorite? Helium 10 tool, Kseniia or function of a tool.   Kseniia: Probably the audience. That's the one that I use all the time. Is it called audience?   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, the split where you ask the questions to the people and say, how are you using that Like for your images, or just for product ideas, or what are you using that?   Kseniia: honestly for everything, for both for the product ideas, for the images, because I just think it's so easy. You know, when you're thinking about like the product we find, then I usually do um, like the drawing and uh, 3d you know the 3d image of the product that doesn't exist yet. Then usually all my products are like, really designed differently. That's what's on the market right now and I just upload the image there and I see what people say and ask them would you buy this product? And if you wouldn't buy this product, why not? Or what would you change in this product? And sometimes I see the things that I didn't even you know, I didn't even think about that.   Bradley Sutton: So you're launching just the 3D rendering and just asking a question on that image, or you're launching it like, or you're launching it, you're putting it in a poll next to like existing products and asking them, or which one are you doing?   Kseniia: I'm doing both. Actually, the first I just do the rendering and ask them would you buy this product? And if you would not buy this product, would you change like, how would you make it better for you? And then sometimes I also compare it to the other products that on the market and ask them which one would they buy? Interesting and a lot of times I do the changes on the product based on what the people say.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah, I think it's important. I mean helium 10 audience, which is, you know, uh basically pick fu inside of Helium 10. I think is slept on by a lot of people. But that's, that's uh glad to see somebody's similar questions. To close out, uh, before we get to our final 30 second tips to Robert, like what's, what's your goals for the brand this year, next year and beyond?   Robert: Yeah, so we're. We're really just doubling down on retail. We have a line reviews with different retailers. We're attending different trade shows, not like Amazon trade shows but like actually exhibiting. We did our first one in Chicago this year that had brought a lot of leads to basically regional retailers and all these new doors where we can just increase our distribution Within Amazon. Just continue to execute our roadmap. You know, basically double down on the products that are working and like higher margin products, but basically just doubling down on what's working. The brand, the angle of like being a go-to coffee brand versus legacy brands, that kind of just focus all over home, all over kitchen yeah, it's really, you know, seems to be really hitting a nerve with retail buyers. So that's kind of where we're going.   Bradley Sutton: Nice, nice and your favorite Helium 10 tool for you or your team.   Robert: Keyword Tracker. I use the Keyword Tracker a lot, market Tracker the original one. So those are my top two and that's because I have a lot of customization there. And I would say, to answer your other question on what could have maybe some improvement, although I like the interface a lot, is the profits. I think I talked to the team already but maybe there was some delay there with the advertising numbers being posted and so, like you know, profit being a tool that you want to look at almost like real time, you know, as opposed to like a few days back. But overall, you know, I love Helium 10. We use a lot of the tools the follow up tool, the you know I hadn't heard of the audience one we use PickFu from time to time, same thing.   Bradley Sutton: It literally is PickFu just inside of Helium 10.   Robert: Yeah, I didn't know that you guys had integrated like that. But, yeah, a lot of tools that help us keep an eye on the business, a lot of the notification stuff, the daily like keyword tracker emails that we get. You know, we really do use all those things Awesome.   Bradley Sutton: All right. So now you know. Robert and Kseniia have been on this podcast for a while, so they know what's coming up next. What is your 30 or 60 second tip? Let's start with Robert.   Robert: So my tip revolves around retail or going into retail. But first I want to talk about a channel called Faire like fair with an E at the end, dot com. To those who haven't heard it, especially if you're selling on Amazon or already on e-com, it's essentially a marketplace for independent stores all throughout the US, Europe, whatever, just sort of mom and pops, coffee shops, just any sort of stores that wants to source goods for their store, and it does really well for us. We've sold six figures through there, high margins, and we get pictures all the time from random friends and things like hey, how is your product that's in a random coffee shop in the middle of random city? Or just like in this little store, I saw your products. So you get actual feedback on what your products look like on the shelves and which products actually sell, Because those products, even though it's going to be a little store, it's going to be on the shelf, so you're going to see which products turn and why they do or do not turn, and that will kind of build up your first book of customers that are actual physical retails. Right, there's a lot of reorders on there and it's just a great way to get your feet wet into going to retail go ahead, you know, into going to retail.   Bradley Sutton: So that's my tip there. Okay, cool, all right now. Now over to uh Kseniia. What is your uh 30 or 60 seconds? Uh tip or strategy for the sellers out there?   Kseniia: I want to talk about the product development. I want to say that never stop product development. Uh, always have multiple products and a development at the same time. Um, even if your budget allowing launching only one at a time, because there is always going to be something that's going to go wrong, like the samples might not be made according to the drawings, suppliers might take a lot longer time to make the sample, or your packaging can get lost in the mail. So, and if something goes wrong with one of the products that you're developing, you always will have another options what to launch.   Bradley Sutton: Cassini in the past. I know she kind of flies under the radar here, and that's why I love having people on the show. They don't come here with agendas, they're not trying to. You know like I'll have professionals, no problem. You know people who have agencies, people who do want to make a name for themselves no problem with that at all. I get good stories. But I also like having people on here who, who, hey, they're not on here for promotion, they're just trying to help other sellers out here. So, Kseniia, I know I don't even have to ask that that that she doesn't even have a you know any website or LinkedIn for people to reach out to. But, Robert, I think you do so like, if people want to, you know somehow find you on the interwebs out there. How can, how can they locate you?   Robert: Gladly, we'll connect. I love just talking to sellers and helping in any way I can. I always learn as much as I give away at least. So gladly please reach out. LinkedIn would be fine, Robert Gomez, just search for me and glad to chat.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. Well, Robert and Kseniia, thank you so much for coming on and sharing what you guys have been up to, and we definitely want to reach out maybe in 2025 and maybe not together, because I like introducing people to new ones, but maybe we'll connect you with other sellers out there. But thank you so much for coming on and wish you the most of success in your e-commerce journeys.

Robert Ross, CEO and Co-Founder at FireHydrant, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how being an on-call engineer fighting incidents inspired him to start his own company. Robert explains how FireHydrant does more than just notify engineers of an incident, but also helps them to be able to effectively put out the fire. Robert tells the story of how he “accidentally” started a company as a result of a particularly critical late-night incident, and why his end goal at FireHydrant has been and will continue to be solving the problem, not simply choosing an exit strategy. Corey and Robert also discuss the value and pricing models of other incident-reporting solutions and Robert shares why he feels surprised that nobody else has taken the same approach FireHydrant has. About RobertRobert Ross is a recovering on-call engineer, and the CEO and co-founder at FireHydrant. As the co-founder of FireHydrant, Robert plays a central role in optimizing incident response and ensuring software system reliability for customers. Prior to founding FireHydrant, Robert previously contributed his expertise to renowned companies like Namely and Digital Ocean. Links Referenced: FireHydrant: https://firehydrant.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/bobbytables TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code they write, but also the containers and cloud infrastructure their apps run on. And a big part of that responsibility is app security — from code to cloud. That's where Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets teams where they are, automating application security controls across their existing tools, workflows, and the AWS application stack — including seamless integrations with AWS CodePipeline, Amazon EKS, Amazon Inspector and several others. I'm a customer myself. Deploy on AWS. Secure with Snyk. Learn more at snyk.co/scream. That's S-N-Y-K-dot-C-O/scream.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. And this featured guest episode is brought to us by our friends at FireHydrant and for better or worse, they've also brought us their CEO and co-founder, Robert Ross, better known online as Bobby Tables. Robert, thank you for joining us.Robert: Super happy to be here. Thanks for having me.Corey: Now, this is the problem that I tend to have when I've been tracking companies for a while, where you were one of the only people that I knew of at FireHydrant. And you kind of still are, so it's easy for me to imagine that, oh, it's basically your own side project that turned into a real job, sort of, side hustle that's basically you and maybe a virtual assistant or someone. I have it on good authority—and it was also signaled by your Series B—that there might be more than just you over there now.Robert: Yes, that's true. There's a little over 60 people now at the company, which is a little mind-boggling for me, starting from side projects, building this in Starbucks to actually having people using the thing and being on payroll. So, a little bit of a crazy thing for me. But yes, over 60.Corey: So, I have to ask, what is it you folks do? When you say ‘fire hydrant,' the first thing that I think I was when I was a kid getting yelled at by the firefighter for messing around with something I probably shouldn't have been messing around with.Robert: So, it's actually very similar where I started it because I was messing around with software in ways I probably shouldn't have and needed a fire hydrant to help put out all the fires that I was fighting as an on-call engineer. So, the name kind of comes from what do you need when you're putting out a fire? A fire hydrant. So, what we do is we help people respond to incidents really quickly, manage them from ring to retro. So, the moment you declare an incident, we'll do all the timeline tracking and eventually help you create a retrospective at the very end. And it's been a labor of love because all of that was really painful for me as an engineer.Corey: One of the things that I used to believe was that every company did something like this—and maybe they do, maybe they don't—I'm noticing these days an increasing number of public companies will never admit to an incident that very clearly ruined things for their customers. I'm not sure if they're going to talk privately to customers under NDAs and whatnot, but it feels like we're leaving an era where it was an expectation that when you had a big issue, you would do an entire public postmortem explaining what had happened. Is that just because I'm not paying attention to the right folks anymore, or are you seeing a downturn in that?Robert: I think that people are skittish of talking about how much reliability they—or issues they may have because we're having this weird moment where people want to open more incidents like the engineers actually want to say we have more incidents and officially declare those, and in the past, we had these, like, shadow incidents that we weren't officially going to say it was an incident, but was a pretty big deal, but we're not going to have a retro on it so it's like it didn't happen. And kind of splitting the line between what's a SEV1, when should we actually talk about this publicly, I think companies are still trying to figure that out. And then I think there's also opposing forces. We talk to folks and it's, you know, public relations will sometimes get involved. My general advice is, like, you should be probably talking about it no matter what. That's how you build trust.It's trust, with incidences, lost in buckets and gained back in drops, so you should be more public about it. And I think my favorite example is a major CDN had a major incident and it took down, like, the UK government website. And folks can probably figure out who I'm talking about, but their stock went up the next day. You would think that a major incident taking down a large portion of the internet would cause your stock to go down. Not the case. They were on it like crazy, they communicated about it like crazy, and lo and behold, you know, people were actually pretty okay with it as far as they could be at the end of the day.Corey: The honest thing that really struck me about that was I didn't realize that CDN that you're referencing was as broadly deployed as it was. Amazon.com took some downtime as a result of this.Robert: Yeah.Corey: It's, “Oh, wow. If they're in that many places, I should be taking them more seriously,” was my takeaway. And again, I don't tend to shame folks for incidents because as soon as you do that, they stopped talking about them. They still have them, but then we all lose the ability to learn from them. I couldn't help but notice that the week that we're recording this, so there was an incident report put out by AWS for a Lambda service event in Northern Virginia.It happened back in June, we're recording this late in October. So, it took them a little bit of time to wind up getting it out the door, but it's very thorough, very interesting as far as what it talks about as far as their own approach to things. Because otherwise, I have to say, it is easy as a spectator slash frustrated customer to assume the absolute worst. Like, you're sitting around there and like, “Well, we have a 15-minute SLA on this, so I'm going to sit around for 12 minutes and finish my game of solitaire before I answer the phone.” No, it does not work that way. People are scrambling behind the scenes because as systems get more complicated, understanding the interdependencies of your own system becomes monstrous.I still remember some of the very early production engineering jobs that I had where—to what you said a few minutes ago—oh, yeah, we'll just open an incident for every alert that goes off. Then we dropped a [core switch 00:05:47] and Nagio sent something like 8000 messages inside of two minutes. And we would still, 15 years later, not be done working through that incident backlog had we done such a thing. All of this stuff gets way harder than you would expect as soon as your application or environment becomes somewhat complicated. And that happens before you realize it.Robert: Yeah, much faster. I think that, in my experience, there's a moment that happens for companies where maybe it's the number of customers you have, number of servers you're running in production, that you have this, like, “Oh, we're running a big workload right now in a very complex system that impacts people's lives, frankly.” And the moment that companies realize that is when you start to see, like, oh, process change, you build it, you own it, now we have an SRE team. Like, there's this catalyst that happens in all of these companies that triggers this. And it's—I don't know, from my perspective, it's coming at a faster rate than people probably realize.Corey: From my perspective, I have to ask you this question, and my apologies in advance if it's one of those irreverent ones, but do you consider yourself to be an observability company?Robert: Oh, great question. No. No, actually. We think that we are the baton handoff between an observability tool and our platform. So, for example, we think that that's a good way to kind of, you know, as they say, monitor the system, give reports on that system, and we are the tool that based on that monitor may be going off, you need to do something about it.So, for example, I think of it as like a smoke detector in some cases. Like, in our world, like that's—the smoke detector is the thing that's kind of watching the system and if something's wrong, it's going to tell you. But at that point, it doesn't really do anything that's going to help you in the next phase, which is managing the incident, calling 911, driving to the scene of the fire, whatever analogies you want to use. But I think the value-add for the observability tools and what they're delivering for businesses is different than ours, but we touch each other, like, very much so.Corey: Managing an incident when something happens and diagnosing what is the actual root cause of it, so to speak—quote-unquote, “Root cause.” I know people have very strong opinions on—Robert: Yeah, say the word [laugh].Corey: —that phrase—exactly—it just doesn't sound that hard. It is not that complicated. It's, more or less, a bunch of engineers who don't know what they're actually doing, and why are they running around chasing this stuff down is often the philosophy of a lot of folks who have never been in the trenches dealing with these incidents themselves. I know this because before I was exposed to scale, that's what I thought and then, oh, this is way harder than you would believe. Now, for better or worse, an awful lot of your customers and the executives at those customers did, for some strange reason, not come up through production engineering as the thing that they've done. They are executives, so it feels like it would be a challenging conversation to have with them, but one thing that you've got in your back pocket, which I always love talking to folks about, is before this, you were an engineer and then you became a CEO of a reasonably-sized company. That is a very difficult transition. Tell me about it.Robert: Yeah. Yeah, so a little of that background. I mean, I started writing code—I've been writing code for two-thirds of my life. So, I'm 32 now; I'm relatively young. And my first job out of high school—skipping college entirely—was writing code. I was 18, I was working in a web dev shop, I was making good enough money and I said, you know what? I don't want to go to college. That sounds—I'm making money. Why would I go to college?And I think it was a good decision because I got to be able—I was right kind of in the centerpiece of when a lot of really cool software things were happening. Like, DevOps was becoming a really cool term and we were seeing the cloud kind of emerge at this time and become much more popular. And it was a good opportunity to see all this confluence of technology and people and processes emerge into what is, kind of like, the base plate for a lot of how we build software today, starting in 2008 and 2009. And because I was an on-call engineer during a lot of that, and building the systems as well, that I was on call for, it meant that I had a front-row seat to being an engineer that was building things that was then breaking, and then literally merging on GitHub and then five minutes later [laugh], seeing my phone light up with an alert from our alerting tool. Like, I got to feel the entire process.And I think that that was nice because eventually one day, I snapped. And it was after a major incident, I snapped and I said, “There's no tool that helps me during this incident. There's no tool that kind of helps me run a process for me.” Because the only thing I care about in the middle of the night is going back to bed. I don't have any other priority [laugh] at 2 a.m.So, I wanted to solve the problem of getting to the fire faster and extinguishing it by automating as much as I possibly could. The process that was given to me in an outdated Confluence page or Google Doc, whatever it was, I wanted to automate that part so I could do the thing that I was good at as an engineer: put out the fire, take some notes, and then go back to bed, and then do a retrospective sometime next day or in that week. And it was a good way to kind of feel the problem, try to build a solution for it, tweak a little bit, and then it kind of became a company. I joke and I say on accident, actually.Corey: I'll never forget one of the first big, hairy incidents that I had to deal with in 2009, where my coworker had just finished migrating the production environment over to LDAP on a Thursday afternoon and then stepped out for a three-day weekend, and half an hour later, everything started exploding because LDAP will do that. And I only had the vaguest idea of how LDAP worked at all. This was a year into my first Linux admin job; I'd been a Unix admin before that. And I suddenly have the literal CEO of the company breathing down my neck behind me trying to figure out what's going on and I have no freaking idea of myself. And it was… feels like there's got to be a better way to handle these things.We got through. We wound up getting it back online, no one lost their job over it, but it was definitely a touch-and-go series of hours there. And that was a painful thing. And you and I went in very different directions based upon experiences like that. I took a few more jobs where I had even worse on-call schedules than I would have believed possible until I started this place, which very intentionally is centered around a business problem that only exists during business hours. There is no 2 a.m. AWS billing emergency.There might be a security issue masquerading as one of those, but you don't need to reach me out of business hours because anything that is a billing problem will be solved in Seattle's timeline over a period of weeks. You leaned into it and decided, oh, I'm going to start a company to fix all of this. And okay, on some level, some wit that used to work here, wound up once remarking that when an SRE doesn't have a better idea, they start a monitoring company.Robert: [laugh].Corey: And, on some level, there's some validity to it because this is the problem that I know, and I want to fix it. But you've differentiated yourself in a few key ways. As you said earlier, you're not an observability company. Good for you.Robert: Yeah. That's a funny quote.Corey: Pete Cheslock. He has a certain way with words.Robert: Yeah [laugh]. I think that when we started the company, it was—we kind of accidentally secured funding five years ago. And it was because this genuinely was something I just, I bought a laptop for because I wanted to own the IP. I always made sure I was on a different network, if I was going to work on the company and the tool. And I was just writing code because I just wanted to solve the problem.And then some crazy situation happened where, like, an investor somehow found FireHydrant because they were like, “Oh, this SRE thing is a big space and incidents is a big part of it.” And we got to talking and they were like, “Hey, we think what you're building is valuable and we think you should build a company here.” And I was—like, you know, the Jim Carrey movie, Yes Man? Like, that was kind of me in that moment. I was like, “Sure.” And here we are five years later. But I think the way that we approached the problem was let's just solve our own problem and let's just build a company that we want to work at.And you know, I had two co-founders join me in late 2018 and that's what we told ourselves. We said, like, “Let's build a company that we want to work for, that solves problems that we have had, that we care about solving.” And I think it's worked out, you know? We work with amazing companies that use our tool—much to their chagrin [laugh]—multiple times a day. It's kind of a problem when you build an incident response tool is that it's a good thing when people are using it, but a bad thing for them.Corey: I have to ask of all of the different angles to approach this from, you went with incident management as opposed to focusing on something that is more purely technical. And I don't say that in any way that is intended to be sounding insulting, but it's easier from an engineering mind to—having been one myself—to come up with, “Here's how I make one computer talk to his other computer when the following event happens.” That's a much easier problem by orders of magnitude than here's how I corral the humans interacting with that computer's failure to talk to another computer in just the right way. How did you get onto this path?Robert: Yeah. The problem that we were trying to solve for it was the getting the right people in the room problem. We think that building services that people own is the right way to build applications that are reliable and stable and easier to iterate on. Put the right people that build that software, give them, like, the skin in the game of also being on call. And what that meant for us is that we could build a tool that allowed people to do that a lot easier where allowing people to corral the right people by saying, “This service is broken, which powers this functionality, which means that these are the people that should get involved in this incident as fast as possible.”And the way we approached that is we just built up part of our functionality called Runbooks, where you can say, “When this happens, do this.” And it's catered for incidents. So, there's other tools out there, you can kind of think of as, like, we're a workflow tool, like Zapier, or just things that, like, fire webhooks at services you build and that ends up being your incident process. But for us, we wanted to make it, like, a really easy way that a project manager could help define the process in our tool. And when you click the button and say, “Declare Incident: LDAP is Broken,” and I have a CEO standing behind me, our tool just would corral the people for you.It was kind of like a bat signal in the air, where it was like, “Hey, there's this issue. I've run all the other process. I just need you to arrive at and help solve this problem.” And we think of it as, like, how can FireHydrant be a mech suit for the team that owns incidents and is responsible for resolving them?Corey: There are a few easier ways to make a product sound absolutely ridiculous than to try and pitch it to a problem that it is not designed to scale to. What is the ‘you must be at least this tall to ride' envisioning for FireHydrant? How large slash complex of an organization do you need to be before this starts to make sense? Because I promise, as one person with a single website that gets no hits, that is probably not the best place for—Robert: Probably not.Corey: To imagine your ideal user persona.Robert: Well, I'm sure you get way more hits than that. Come on [laugh].Corey: It depends on how controversial I'm being in a given week.Robert: Yeah [laugh].Corey: Also, I have several ridiculous, nonsense apps out there, but honestly, those are for fun. I don't charge people for them, so they can deal with my downtime till I get around to it. That's the way it works.Robert: Or, like, spite-visiting your website. No it's—for us, we think that the ‘must be this tall' is when do you have, like, sufficiently complicated incidents? We tell folks, like, if you're a ten-person shop and you have incidents, you know, just use our free tier. Like, you need something that opens a Slack channel? Fine. Use our free tier or build something that hits the Slack API [unintelligible 00:18:18] channel. That's fine.But when you start to have a lot of people in the room and multiple pieces of functionality that can break and multiple people on call, that's when you probably need to start to invest in incident management. Because it is a return on investment, but there is, like, a minimum amount of incidents and process challenges that you need to have before that return on investment actually, I would say, comes to fruition. Because if you do think of, like, an incident that takes downtime, or you know, you're a retail company and you go down for, let's say, ten minutes, and your number of sales per hour is X, it's actually relatively simple for that type of company to understand, okay, this is how much impact we would need to have from an incident management tool for it to be valuable. And that waterline is actually way—it's way lower than I think a lot of people realize, but like you said, you know, if you have a few 100 visitors a day, it's probably not worth it. And I'll be honest there, you can use our free tier. That's fine.Corey: Which makes sense. It's challenging to wind up-sizing things appropriately. Whenever I look at a pricing page, there are two things that I look for. And incidentally, when I pull up someone's website, I first make a beeline for pricing because that is the best way I found for a lot of the marketing nonsense words to drop away and it get down to brass tacks. And the two things I want are free tier or zero-dollar trial that I can get started with right now because often it's two in the morning and I'm trying to see if this might solve a problem that I'm having.And I also look for the enterprise tier ‘contact us' because there are big companies that do not do anything that is not custom nor do they know how to sign a check that doesn't have two commas in it. And whatever is between those two, okay, that's good to look at to figure out what dimensions I'm expected to grow on and how to think about it, but those are the two tent poles. And you've got that, but pricing is always going to be a dark art. What I've been seeing across the industry. And if we put it under the broad realm of things that watch your site and alert you and help manage those things, there are an increasing number of, I guess what I want to call component vendors, where you'll wind up bolting together a couple dozen of these things together into an observability pipeline-style thing, and each component seems to be getting extortionately expensive.Most of the wake-up-in-the-middle-of-the-night services that will page you—and there are a number of them out there—at a spot check of these, they all cost more per month per user than Slack, the thing that most of us to end up living within. This stuff gets fiendishly expensive, fiendishly quickly, and at some point, you're looking at this going, “The outage is cheaper than avoiding the outage through all of these things. What are we doing here?” What's going on in the industry, other than ‘money printing machine stopped going brrr' in quite the same way?Robert: Yeah, I think that for alerting specifically, this is a big part of, like, the journey that we wanted to have in FireHydrant was like, we also want to help folks with the alerting piece. So, I'll focus on that, which is, I think that the industry around notifying people for incidents—texts, call, push notifications, emails, there's a bunch of different ways to do it—I think where it gets really crazy expensive as in this per-seat model that most of them seem to have landed on. And we're per-seat for, like, the core platform of FireHydrant—so you know, before people spite-visit FireHydrant, look at our pricing pitch—but we're per-seat there because the value there is, like, we're the full platform for the service catalog retrospectives, Runbooks, like, there's a whole other component of FireHydrant—status pages—but when it comes to alerting, like, in my opinion, that should be active user for a few reasons. I think that if you're going to have people responding to incidents and the value from us is making sure they get to that incident very quickly because we wake them up in the middle of the night, we text them, we call them we make their Hue lights turn red, whatever it is, then that's, like, the value that we're delivering at that moment in time, so that's how we should probably invoice you.And I think that what's happened is that the pricing for these companies, they haven't innovated on the product in a way that allows them to package that any differently. So, what's happened, I think, is that the packaging of these products has been almost restrictive in the way that they could change their pricing models because there's nothing much more to package on. It's like, cool there's an alerting aspect to this, but that's what people want to buy those tools for. They want to buy the tool so it wakes them up. But that tool is getting more expensive.There was even a price increase announced today for a big one [laugh] that I've been publicly critical of. That is crazy expensive for a tool that texts you and call you. And what peo—what's going on now are people are looking, they're looking at the pricing sheet for Twilio and going, “What the heck is going on?” Like, I—to send a text on Twilio in the United States is fractions of a penny and here we are paying $40 a user for that person to receive six texts that month because of a webhook that hit an HCP server and, like, it's supposed to call that person? That's kind of a crazy model if you think about it. Like, engineers are kind of going, “Wait a minute. What's up here?” Like, and when engineers start thinking, “I could build this on a weekend,” like, something's wrong, like, with that model. And I think that people are starting to think that way.Corey: Well engineers, to be fair, will think that about an awful lot of stuff.Robert: Anything. Yeah, they [laugh]—Corey: I've heard it said about Dropbox, Facebook, the internet—Robert: Oh, Dropbox is such a good one.Corey: BGP. Yeah okay, great. Let me know how that works out for you.Robert: What was that Dropbox comment on Hacker News years ago? Like, “Just set up NFS and host it that way and it's easy.” Right?Corey: Or rsync. Yeah—Robert: Yeah, it was rsync.Corey: What are you going to make with that? Like, who's going to buy that? Like, basically everyone for at least a time.Robert: And whether or not the engineers are right, I think is a different point.Corey: It's the condescension dismissal of everything that isn't writing the code that really galls, on some level.Robert: But I think when engineers are thinking about, like, “I could build this on a weekend,” like, that's a moment that you have an opportunity to provide the value in an innovative, maybe consolidated way. We want to be a tool that's your incident management ring to retro, right? You get paged in the middle of the night, we're going to wake you up, and when you open up your laptop, groggy-eyed, and like, you're about to start fighting this fire, FireHydrant's already done a lot of work. That's what we think is, like, the right model do this. And candidly, I have no idea why the other alerting tools in this space haven't done this. I've said that and people tend to nod in agreement and say like, “Yeah, it's been—it's kind of crazy how they haven't approached this problem yet.” And… I don't know, I want to solve that problem for folks.Corey: So, one thing that I have to ask, you've been teasing on the internet for a little bit now is something called Signals where you are expanding your product into the component that wakes people up in the middle of the night, which in isolation, fine, great, awesome. But there was a company whose sole stated purpose was to wake people up in the middle of the night, and then once they started doing some business things such as, oh I don't know, going public, they needed to expand beyond that to do a whole bunch of other things. But as a customer, no, no, no, you are the thing that wakes me up in the middle of the night. I don't want you to sprawl and grow into everything else because if you're going to have to pick a vendor that claims to do everything, well, I'll just stay with AWS because they already do that and it's one less throat to choke. What is that pressure that is driving companies that are spectacular at the one thing to expand into things that frankly, they don't have the chops to pull off? And why is this not you doing the same thing?Robert: Oh, man. The end of that question is such a good one and I like that. I'm not an economist. I'm not—like, that's… I don't know if I have a great comment on, like, why are people expanding into things that they don't know how to do. It seems to be, like, a common thing across the industry at a certain point—Corey: Especially particularly generative AI. “Oh, we've been experts in this for a long time.” “Yeah, I'm not that great at dodgeball, but you also don't see me mouthing off about how I've been great at it and doing it for 30 years, either.”Robert: Yeah. I mean, there was a couple ads during football games I watched. I'm like, “What is this AI thing that you just, like, tacked on the letter X to the end of your product line and now all of a sudden, it's AI?” I have plenty of rants that are good for a cocktail at some point, but as for us, I mean, we knew that we wanted to do alerting a long time ago, but it does have complications. Like, the problem with alerting is that it does have to be able to take a brutal punch to the face the moment that AWS us-east-2 goes down.Because at that moment in time, a lot of webhooks are coming your way to wake somebody up, right, for thousands of different companies. So, you do have to be able to take a very, very sufficient amount of volume instantaneously. So, that was one thing that kind of stopped us. In 2019 even, we wrote a product document about building an alerting tool and we kind of paused. And then we got really deep into incident management, and the thing that makes us feel very qualified now is that people are actually already integrating their alerting tools into FireHydrant today. This is a very common thing.In fact, most people are paying for a FireHydrant and an alerting tool. So, you can imagine that gets a little expensive when you have both. So, we said, well, let's help folks consolidate, let's help folks have a modern version of alerting, and let's build on top of something we've been doing very well already, which is incident management. And we ended up calling it Signals because we think that we should be able to receive a lot of signals in, do something correct with them, and then put a signal out and then transfer you into incident management. And yeah, we're are excited for it actually. It's been really cool to see it come together.Corey: There's something to be said for keeping it in a certain area of expertise. And people find it very strange when they reach out to my business partner and me asking, okay, so are you going to expand into Google Cloud or Azure or—increasingly, lately—Datadog—which has become a Fortune 500 board-level expense concern, which is kind of wild to me, but here we are—and asking if we're going to focus on that, and our answer is no because it's very… well, not very, but it is relatively easy to be the subject matter expert in a very specific, expensive, painful problem, but as soon as you start expanding that your messaging loses focus and it doesn't take long—since we do you view this as an inherent architectural problem—where we're saying, “We're the best cloud engineers and cloud architects in the world,” and then we're competing against basically everyone out there. And it costs more money a year for Accenture or Deloitte's marketing budget than we'll ever earn as a company in our entire lifetime, just because we are not externally boosted, we're not putting hundreds of people into the field. It's a lifestyle business that solves an expensive, painful problem for our customers. And that focus lends clarity. I don't like the current market pressure toward expansion and consolidation at the cost of everything, including it seems, customer trust.Robert: Yeah. That's a good point. I mean, I agree. I mean, when you see a company—and it's almost getting hard to think about what a company does based on their name as well. Like, names don't even mean anything for companies anymore. Like Datadog has expanded into a whole lot of things beyond data and if you think about some of the alerting tools out there that have names of, like, old devices that used to attach to our hips, that's just a different company name than what represents what they do.And I think for us, like, incidents, that's what we care about. That's what I know. I know how to help people manage incidents. I built software that broke—sometimes I was an arsonist—sometimes I was a firefighter, it really depends, but that's the thing that we're going to be good at and we're just going to keep building in that sphere.Corey: I think that there's a tipping point that starts to become pretty clear when companies focus away from innovating and growing and serving customers into revenue protection mode. And I think this is a cyclical force that is very hard to resist. But I can tell even having conversations like this with folks, when the way that a company goes about setting up one of these conversations with me, you came by yourself, not with a squadron of PR people, not with a whole giant list of talking points you wanted to go to, just, “Let's talk about this stuff. I'm interested in it.”As a company grows, that becomes more and more uncommon. Often, I'll see it at companies a third the size of yours, just because there's so much fear around everything we say must be spoken in such a way that it could never be taken in a negative way against us. That's not the failure mode. The failure mode is that no one listens to you or cares what you have to say. At some point, yeah, I get the shift, but damned if it doesn't always feel like it's depressing.Robert: Yeah. This is such great questions because I think that the way I think about it is, I care about the problem and if we solve the problem and we solve it well and people agree with us on our solution being a good way to solve that problem, then the revenue, like, happens because of that. I've gotten asked from, like, from VCs and customers, like, “What's your end goal with FireHydrant as the CEO of the company?” And what they're really asking is, like, “Do you want to IPO or be acquired?” That's always a question every single time.And my answer is, maybe, I don't know, philosophical, but it's, I think if we solve the problem, like, one of those will happen, but that's not the end goal. Because if I aim at that, we're going to come up short. It's like how they tell you to throw a ball, right? Like they don't say, aim at the glove. They say, like, aim behind the person.And that's what we want to do. We just want to aim at solving a problem and then the revenue will come. You have to be smart about it, right? It's not a field of dreams, like, if you build it, like, revenue arrives, but—so you do have to be conscious of the business and the operations and the model that you work within, but it should all be in service of building something that's valuable.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where should they go to find you, other than, you know, to their most recent incident page?Robert: [laugh]. No, thanks for having me. So, to learn more about me, I mean, you can find me on Twitter on—or X. What do we call it now?Corey: I call it Twitter because I don't believe in deadnaming except when it's companies.Robert: Yeah [laugh]. twitter.com/bobbytables if you want to find me there. If you want to learn more about FireHydrant and what we're doing to help folks with incidents and incident response and all the fun things in there, it's firehydrant.com or firehydrant.io, but we'll redirect you to dot com.Corey: And we will, of course, put a link to all of that in the [show notes 00:33:10]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. It's deeply appreciated.Robert: Thank you for having me.Corey: Robert Ross, CEO and co-founder of FireHydrant. This featured guest episode has been brought to us by our friends at FireHydrant, and I'm Corey Quinn. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment that will never see the light of day because that crappy platform you're using is having an incident that they absolutely do not know how to manage effectively.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Today's Building Texas Business Podcast episode finds us chatting with Robert Grosz, President and COO of the tech company WorldVue. Robert shares insights into how WorldVue has sustained success for decades through strong customer relationships and a responsibility-centered culture. He details their customer-centric approach and innovation fostering, revealing lessons learned navigating the pandemic with a dedication to service and constructive dialogue. Robert also opens up about transitions into leadership, emphasizing quick decisions, balancing loyalty with progress, and his thoughtful vision for a blended family-exploration sabbatical. From navigating disagreements to keeping pace with industry shifts, Robert offers a compelling view of resilient leadership. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Robert Grosz, the President and COO of WorldVue, discusses how the company drives growth through strong customer relationships and a company culture rooted in responsibility. He highlights the importance of fostering innovation, creativity, and relevance in the ever-changing tech landscape to stay competitive. We discuss WorldVue's response to the pandemic, emphasizing the importance of their company culture, which includes responsibility, dedication to customer service, and the importance of constructive dialogue. He talks about his transition into a leadership role at WorldVue, emphasizing the importance of quick decision-making and his philosophy on loyalty. Robert shares his proposition for a 30-day sabbatical, and his appreciation for the dynamic beauty of Texas. The episode touches on building relationships and driving growth,We discuss how WorldVue has been successful for 50 years by solving problems, befriending customers, and adding value to their lives. Building a strong company culture is discussed, with Robert explaining how WorldVue managed to successfully navigate the pandemic thanks to its dedication to customer service and focus on responsibility. Building trust and success in leadership is also covered, with Robert emphasizing the importance of making decisions fast and how loyalty can be an adversary to that philosophy. Robert shares his vision for a 30-day sabbatical, which includes spending the first two weeks at home with family and the last two weeks exploring the dynamic beauty of Texas. Finally, We discuss Roberts approach to navigating leadership disagreements, sharing a key lesson learned from past experiences that resulted in lost opportunities. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Robert GroszAbout Robert TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you'll meet Robert Grosz, president and Chief Operating Officer of WorldVue. Robert shares how WorldVue focuses on building a culture of responsibility by being a service-oriented company to its customers in order to drive growth. Robert:, I want to thank you for agreeing to come on Building Texas Business. It's a pleasure to meet you. Robert: Chris, it's great to meet you as well. Chris: Let's get started by just telling the audience about WorldVue and what it's known for. Robert: Chris, have you ever had a friend that is really good at something, whether it's fixing cars or technology, programming your TV, things like that? Chris: It's a friend that you can count on. Robert: It's their best friend. Sure, they go above and beyond. If you've got a problem, you know you can come to them. They respond quickly and they give it their all. Even if they don't know about the solution, they give it their all and they help you and they add value to your life and you build that friendship. That's what we strive for at WorldVue. WorldVue is a company that's been in business for almost 50 years now, houston-based. Our customers are hotels and our expertise is technology. So if a hotel brand, a hotel owner, an individual hotel has a problem with technology, we want them to come to us because we want to be their best friend forever and add value to their lives. So what we're known for is solving problems for hotels, befriending them, building relationships with them and just being part of that industry, being part of the hospitality business. Chris:And that's what's made us successful for 50 years. That's great. I love how it's so ingrained that it's about relationships and even using the analogy of best friend, what inspired you to get involved with WorldVue? What inspired this company to get to where it is today? Robert: Yeah, so they've been along a lot longer than I've been with them. Chris: Sure, I don't look that. You started a company. I started when I was one. Robert:No, no, that's started long before. It's a family business. It's still a family business. The founder still comes to work. He's usually the first one there and the last one to leave. I'm very, very engaged but of course the business has changed a lot over the years. I've known the company for the last 17 years. I actually was with Dish Network. Dish Network is where WorldVue gets their programming, their content, the TV content and some of their technology and I got to know them as a supplier, vendor, got to know the people. I fell in love with the people, fell in love with the company, the culture. The time came where they were kind of pivoting and it's kind of the next generation of WorldVue and we're building this company as a legacy business to last for the next 10 generations and they needed someone with my skillset, my expertise, to help lead them into that. And that's kind of how I got to know WorldVue and got to be involved with WorldVue. Now I'm the president and chief operating officer of the company and I've got a great team around us and teamwork I'm sure we're going to talk about teamwork and people are very, very important and kind of fulfilling our mission. So yeah, that's the origin story of how I got involved with WorldVue. Chris: Okay, that's great. So technology company means evolution and innovation have to be in the fabric of the company. So talk to us a little bit about what you do in your role to foster creativity, innovation, to keep WorldVue relevant in its industry. Robert: Yeah, sure, and relevance. I'm glad you said that word. Relevance is our key growth driver. So you know we've got two growth drivers One's relevance, which is all about product, it's all about the technology that we're out there evangelizing, designing and supporting and really becoming experts at, and with that relevance drives market share growth and getting into more and more and more hotel properties. We currently serve 7000 properties in the US, and now we're expanding internationally. But we're a product driven company because that's our expertise. You know, we want to be the best friend to our clients. That's kind of why we exist. But the what we do is the technology, and we will use technology from leading providers that are off the shelf, you know some big brands that everyone's heard of before, like LG and Cisco. You know brands like that, but what we'll do is we'll take those and we'll integrate them. So integration is kind of what we do best and it's kind of our secret sauce is how do you integrate big, big brands like an Oracle with a LG which does interim entertainment and TV technology? That's our secret sauce. Chris: So the integration. Robert: We're the glue between big technologies and we do it very well. And again, if you lean back on the why you actually want to develop this relationship to add value to your customers and we want your customer to be your best friend. That's kind of what we're doing. So it is related to the technology. We like to say we're a service company that just happens to do technology. We're not a technology company that tries to do service. That's one of our big differentiators. Chris: I would imagine that's a meaningful difference in mindset when you go to the hiring process and building your team to have that servant service oriented mindset be the lead, primary thing you're looking for. What are some of the things you're you do to make sure you're hiring the right people that fit that mindset? Robert: Yeah, yeah, yeah surrounding yourself with people better than you is one of our mantras at any level of the company, and I think if you, just if you, champion that mantra, you know constantly looking for people that do things a little bit better than you, whether it's a specific skill or an attitude, and I think attitude is something you can't really teach. Attitude is something that you carry with you as a human being in your existence, is your WorldVue, which is one of the reasons for the name world. Chris: Gotcha, that makes sense is. Robert: You've got to have that. You've got to have your head on straight as it relates to how do you interact with others, how you act with it, with a team, how you help build the team, how you pull in the same direction to achieve a goal, and those things are very important. We can hire people that are incredibly intelligent, incredibly book smart, have done amazing things and we do but but if, if you don't hire for the attitude and you don't hire for the teamwork, you're going to end up failing, and that's really what we look for there's some tools you have in place so that in that process, the people doing the interviews, whatever it is, and however you go about that, that help you identify or get a bead on the attitude that the candidate has. Yeah, so so we developed our own tools and we, of course, use off the shelf tools, personality assessments and things like that. But, we developed a tool that we called chirp. It's an acronym C, h, I, r, p coachable, humble, intelligent, responsive and persistent. So what we do is, when we're talking to someone, we try to bounce those, those, those challenges, those dynamics off of the candidate to see if they're open to actually learning and becoming a better person. Chris: And if you don't have the C, the coachable. Robert: It's going to be hard for you to be part of the team. Sure Because regardless of what you know, even the smartest person on earth, there's still something for them to learn and they have to be open minded about absorbing that and taking some direction and realizing the experience of others. So coachable humble humility is important. It's related to coachable Intelligence. Isn't book smart, it's more emotional intelligence. It's no one what to say when to say it. Being quick on your feet, having that mindset about who you actually are as a person and how you interrelate to each other, and then how you actually consult problems related to a specific tactical technology, that's intelligence. Chris: Responsive you know. Robert: When the phone rings, you answer it. When an email comes in, you respond to it, you don't let it dwindle. Right and persistence. Persistence is that hunger and that energy, right. Persistence is, you know, knowing that there's a goal, knowing that it's going to be tough to get to that goal, if it's worth pursuing and fighting for it. You know so. Together is the chirp. If you look at our logo, there's a wonderful sparrow icon, which is the chirp, which is a bird, so it all ties together. Chris: Okay. So how do you then take this service oriented mindset you hired using chirp, which I love the acronym. How do you then take that into action and actually go about building these relationships to where your customers become your best friends? How do you connect those dots? Robert: Yeah, so I mean it's about engagement with the customer on their turf right. The world revolves around the customer, doesn't revolve around us as individuals or as a company. So you go to where they are. You go to where the relevance factor is high to them, whether it's a trade show event or it's their office, whether it's charities that they might sponsor and support that are worthwhile getting involved with you. Try to make it about a personal relationship, and that's where our best customers and our best employees thrive is when you can truly make it about the individual. That's very, very important to us. We get on their turf and we try to understand who they are as a person. We're not just checking a box. If we check a box, we become a commodity. When we become a commodity, then the margins are rode, financial performance isn't there and we don't exist Right. So we've got to make it about that personalization. We've got to make it about the customer. Chris: Very good. So let's talk a little bit about how the company has maybe managed over these last few years. I would think, given what we experienced in 2020 and coming in a few years out of that there was, your customers, at least, had probably suffered some downturns in their business, which probably translated to you. What are some of the things you did to help manage the company through those tough times? Robert: Sure, yeah Well, the hospitality industry in general and a lot of industries, but especially the hospitality industry. When people stopped traveling for business, they stopped traveling for personal. They didn't go on vacation. We had a lot of our hotels closed down. Some of our hotels stayed open for first response medical personnel, things like that and they did okay. Some very limited service hotels that don't really exist for that business traveler but they exist just because they need a bed to rent Actually did okay. They thrived, they had good occupancy. We as a company were fortunate. We managed, not by laying people off and cutting back, but we managed by committing and recommitting to our employees. So we had no layoffs because of COVID. We took a kind of unique philosophy to the pandemic and that period of time two, three year period of time where we got back in the office as soon as we could and we did that in a safe way. So there was social distancing and making sure that everything was clean and being aware to the health of all of our employees and respecting individual wishes, but we encourage people to get back in the office in October of 2020. And we've been back since, and we do that because we think that people communicate best in person. It's probably one of the reasons you have us all here to have a podcast, as opposed to doing it virtually. Absolutely Is that personal connection. You can't put your finger on it, but it's important. So I think that that action was a cultural move and I think it's had it's paid dividends for us. I hope it's paid dividends for our employees and I think we'll continue with that mindset. We were there to help our customers, so we were making sure, from a commercial perspective, that we could give them as much relief as possible. We were there to help them turn up their properties, turn down their properties using all kinds of technologies. So there's a lot of different technology out there that a hotel uses. And we were there for them, in all fronts. Chris: That's great. I can totally identify with that thought process, that mindset. We took the same approach in 2020, got people back in in May of 2020, doing the same thing making sure the workplace was safe, but with the view that we work better together. It does foster a healthy culture. I think it makes us better in who we are and in our work and how we can serve our clients and customers. And, to your point, I'm pretty adamant that these podcasts although we've done a few via Zoom because we had to 90, I mean there's I don't need all fingers on one hand, they've almost all been in person, because you just can't replace the dynamic when you're together. So you touched on it. I want to go down this trail with you. And that's culture. How would you make, describe the culture at WorldVue and what are some of the things that you have done to build and foster that culture? Robert: Sure, so we have a culture of responsibility. We're responsible to each other as much as we're responsible to our customers and we have a promise that we make, which is we deliver every time, no exception. And that is as relevant for the guy in the office next to you as it is to your customer, which could be a couple thousand miles away. Right, you know, we deliver every time, no exception. So if someone needs something, we strive to deliver that right. We strive to deliver on the promise. Sometimes it's not easy, oftentimes it's not easy, but it takes a lot of energy and a lot of focus, and I think everyone knows that. But that promise in the company from, you know, from the, the, the, the newest call center rep, all the way to the top they all try to kind of pull that direction. That creates that culture of rowing in the same direction. And that is very, very important. Because if you've got a company that's rowing in multiple directions, it's going to be, it's going to be problematic, it's going to be expensive, the trust is going to be violated, you're not going to be able to move quickly and address customer needs, you're not going to look at the dynamic of what customers can offer in the marketplace and turn quickly to address that it's. It's really core to to who we are as a company, as as individuals. Chris: So what do you do as the president, chief operating officer, low leader, to show up so that people understand that you live the culture, you can enforce that culture. What are some of the things you do to reinforce that every day? Robert: Yeah, so you've got to lead from the front. It's all about attitude. You can't come in all slouched over. You've got to be on point and you've got to do it authentically. It can't be fake, right? And that's a challenge sometimes. Chris: For sure. Robert: And you've got to have your focus. You've got to have your eye on the prize, if you will. Communication is critical, so routine, touch-based meetings. I don't like to have long meetings that consume people's time or people attend the meeting to be attending the meeting. I want there to be a purpose and a reason. I want there to be lots of dialogue. Constructive criticism. Constructive differences make everything special and you can't just kind of dominate. You've got to listen to the different opinions. Chris: Ask more questions. Robert: Ask more questions. We like to say listen 10 times more than people are talking, and you've got to lead by example. If you don't do that yourself as an individual, again something's wrong and everyone sees it and everyone knows it. Chris: So I asked most guests about setbacks or failures and we learned sometimes much more by those. Is there a situation or experience you can think about as a leader where it didn't go as you hoped or it was a failure or setback in a decision or strategy, but you learned from it and the learning from that has made you better today than you were before. Yeah, absolutely. Robert: I mean I've got lots of setbacks and failures, but I think one big example would be if there is a disagreement between leaders and they're not seeing eye to eye and they don't address it quickly, it can create division and that division creates distraction and the distraction creates lost opportunities. And we've dealt with that over the last few years. We've had some disagreements on the direction we needed to go and the solution was coming in the room together, fixing it, getting it on the same page, having the confidence and the buy-in at the most inner level as a person, as an individual, and making the team more cohesive. So you can go from cohesive to a failure very quickly if you don't pay attention to that dynamic. So that was one of big lessons learned. There are others where you bring individuals into the company based upon their experience and their pedigree and you throw them into our mix and they just don't dance our dance and they create a bunch of disruption and you've got to move fast there. It's tough letting people go. It always is tough letting people go, but oftentimes it's good for them as much as it's good for the company, because they're not comfortable in their shoes. That's tough to be a person. When you're not comfortable in your shoes, it's tough to live a life. Chris: Yeah, you touched on something there that I think everyone that I've interviewed in these podcast agree. The biggest lesson learned maybe in that difficult time when someone's not fitting is making that decision faster than you feel like you probably want to, because the person that's not fitting in your organization will be better off because it's just not a good fit and they'll find the place they fit better and your organization will be better because that person that's not fitting is going to be a distraction. It potentially could erode culture and you're just always better off moving faster, even though it'd feel right in your gut sometimes. That's right. You're affecting human lives. Robert: Yeah, and loyalty, by the way is the adversary to that philosophy. Chris: Right, so we all want to be loyal to people. Robert: I think good people are loyal, but you have to have the vision, the foresight, the clarity to understand where there's loyalty and then there's a bad fit, a poor fit. And if there's a poor fit then the best move is always make it a better fit. So that's very important. Chris: As WorldVue has grown, what have you done to build a team around you and let go of some of the things that maybe you used to do more on a day-to-day basis and learn to make us trust and let go yeah, trust is a key word. Robert: So finding people better than you at things, making sure that they're the right fit and then trusting that they're going to get the job done, and sitting back and delegating some responsibilities that you may have you may think that you need to do to them or to their teams, and then watching it grow. And it's very easy to delegate to somebody, but it's difficult to give them enough rope where they're going to actually lead or fail. If they fail, then you can step back in and you can fix it and you can delegate to someone else. You could coach them, but if you've got good people around you I mean if you've got good people that are pulling in the same direction they will self-adjust, they will succeed because they want to reach the same goal that you want to reach. So in some ways it can be very, very simple and easy. Oftentimes it doesn't feel that way when you're doing it, so that's an interesting dynamic. Chris: It really is. The other thing I was going to ask you about, excuse me, is you kind of had an interesting experience in that. I guess I'm talking about transition, succession from founder of company that's still around, as you mentioned in the beginning, but you stepping in to the leadership role as president, chief operating officer maybe talk to us, because there's some listeners out there maybe doing that or or that's in their near future. Let's talk a little bit about what were some of the challenges of bridging that transition gap as you took over as the president of the company. Robert: Yeah, I think, from my personal story, it's about building trust and having integrity as well as having a deep level of respect. If someone founds a company that's been around for almost 50 years, I look up to them. I don't care what that company is. I mean, they've done something that a lot of people have never experienced or will never experience, and I've got to give them tons of credit for that and have utmost respect for that effort. But making that person or that group of people trust you and inspiring them to let you lead is a significant, significant initiative that you've got to have a lot of purpose, a lot of focus on, and that's kind of the most important part, I think, is to to build a relationship. Build that relationship, build the trust, be authentic, have integrity. They will then see that you can lead and take what they've done to the next level and hopefully that will benefit their family and families for generations to come, because that's the ultimate outcome. It's not building to flip it, it's not make a fast buck. In fact, the bucks have nothing to do with it. It's about the purpose. It's about what you deliver value to society, to your customers. It's about what you want to do. That's why that analogy to a friend a best friend is really good at something. I think that's a very good focus for us to have, and I think that if you can generate thousands and thousands of friends throughout the world that all have that need, you've got a successful business that's providing college educations, food on the table, happiness, travel, fun for families, countless families. That's really exciting. That's kind of the passion. Chris: Did you have any challenges as that transition, where the people that used to report directly to the founder maybe weren't coming to you at first, and how did you manage that? Robert: I would be lying to say that that doesn't still exist. It does. It's just a challenge that you have to acknowledge and you have to kind of embrace. I get it. Like I said, the respect level that I have for the founder, the founding family, is so high that I would expect that legacy employees that have been around for a long time. Look at that with the same level of respect. Chris: So you don't take offense to it, oh you can't take offense to it. Robert: It's an eagle driven thing. Chris: Yeah, well, it sounds like that attitude that you bring to it is consistent with the culture, that you're the mindset of the right attitude and that the company's got everyone going in the same direction. Yeah, that's right. So it's not easy running a company the scale and size that you do. What are some of the things that you've done personally to try to have a very successful business life, but also very successful and fulfilling personal life? Robert: Sure, yeah, I mean, I've got four children, twin three-year-olds, a seven-year-old and a 22-year-old and a wonderful wife at home and you know you can't lose focus on what they need and what they want. You can't lose focus on being at home. Right, home is where the heart is. Home provides all kinds of emotional support and you know that's kind of been my exercise routine is making sure that I can maintain a healthy home, which you know. There's this concept of balance that I haven't figured out yet Sure like everyone has their own definition right. Yeah, but because of technology you can be in one location and have a FaceTime call with someone else and you at least can, you know, make sure you're there from a voice and a conversation standpoint. But it's not easy. For sure, but it is definitely worth living for, it's worth striving towards, and you know I value the family component of my life tremendously and I'm hoping that that lends itself to the mission of where we are, the direction we're headed as a company. Out that comes off, and you know I try to treat the folks around me that are closest to me in the office like family as well, and I get a lot of practice. Chris: That's good, that's great, great attitude about it. So what do you see on the horizon? What's next for WorldVue? Where do you see the near future taking you? Robert: Well, our friends are getting larger and larger. We're getting more of them. We are expanding internationally. So we just formed entities in the UK and the EU and Dubai, as well as, I believe, in Singapore and Mexico City. So, we've got a strategy to expand what we do globally, which is going to be very, very exciting. It's going to be very, very difficult. The challenge is exciting, though, and the great people around me and our teams are all excited and enthusiastic about that. But, from just growing business and sticking to our knitting in terms of domestic growth. We've got great relationships with hotel brands. There are multiple. The environment of hospitality is multidimensional and very fascinating to me at least. Where you've got a brand presence, you've got real estate owners, you've got operators and then you've got, of course, guests and the occupants of the property and you've got to serve all four of those groups in a special way and make sure that you're coming through for them. And so we've done a pretty good job at all of those levels. We're excited about some of our brand relationships that are growing and we're becoming more of their best friend. They have other friends. Sure You're their best friend. So the growth plan with product competencies as one lever and market share expansion as the other lever, is what's going to take us forward, and we'd like to be five times larger than what we are in the next five years. Chris: Oh, it's aggressive, it's aggressive. I was going to ask you what's driving that growth? Robert: It's demand. The demand that there's so much technology out there. Technology has become this kind of ambiguous word, right. Sure when it could be hard technology, like a wireless access point or a TV or an ethernet switch or a door lock, or it could be a software right. The software is kind of the glue that makes that hardware valuable, and the software on each of those individual devices is unique. And the key is how do you integrate those softwares together to create an amazing experience, whether it's for a guest, for a hotel associate, the housekeeper or for the owner of the property? In terms of value creation through stronger profitability, there's opportunities to leverage technology to not only solve problems but create opportunities. We think that's where the real demand is going to come from. We just have to be there to be their best friend make it all work and when they have a problem, come to us. Chris: Be that trusted friend. Robert: Be the trusted friend, trusted advisor. Chris: So what advice would you give to someone who aspires to be a business leader or entrepreneur, based on your experience, Create a focus, like create something you really want to achieve. Robert: Start at the end, like what do you want your life to look like and what do you see doing that really is a passion for you. Leave all the other stuff out of that equation, leave the money out of that equation, leave the location out of that equation. But focus with the end in mind, in terms of how you'd like to live to, and then build backwards from there, like what does it take to get there? Create a roadmap for yourself. I know, very early on in life I saw the movie Wall Street and this is on silly, but I loved business after that. I don't know why I don't know what it was, maybe it was the acting, I don't know but I wanted to be a businessman, I wanted to be in business and then I lived my life. I got to college. I was lucky enough to run into some very influential professors. One of them happened to be a real estate guy. He was doing commercial real estate development and exposed me to a company called Equity Group Investments which is based in Chicago. I grew up in Wisconsin, based in Chicago. A guy named Sam Zell who just passed away this last year. And Sam was an iconic entrepreneur, a builder of businesses all along the real estate kind of foundational area, and I decided I wanted to work for Sam Zell. So I graduated college, moved to Chicago, no job, started originating mortgages 100% commission straight out of school and just pursued Sam's company, got involved with Equity Residential, which was his apartment rate, got in the flow of that company, developed this love of technology. I've always had a love of technology, applied technology to real estate early on in the early 90s, kind of made a name for myself, and then that took me to where I am today, which is real estate technology, the scene between the two, solving problems and then being someone's best friend. Chris: There's value there. Robert: And that's kind of how what. I would advise so, start with the end of mind. Chris: Okay, I love that Great story, so let's turn to a little lighter subjects. What was your first job? Robert: First job was? That's a great question. First job I worked in a warehouse and I was moving things around a warehouse after school and I was 14, 15 years old. Like no technology involved in that there was like a tow motor, a tow motor and a truck and a dock. But you know, and really exposed myself to an interesting lifestyle, you know, the people who work in warehouses are pretty salt of the earth and you know, boy, you sweat it in that job right, and then you know. But probably my most interesting job and the one that I was at the least or the shortest amount of time was. I joined a roofing crew in a summer in college and I was on that job for a total of four hours. Chris: And. Robert: I had blisters and bloody hands in that first morning. It was a commercial three-story roof, pitched roof, asphalt, you know, shingles and those guys. I've never seen someone work as hard as them and I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. So I went to work as a teller after that. Chris: Okay. Robert: Two weeks later, a bank teller. Chris: Okay, okay, well, so you mentioned you grew up in Wisconsin. Yeah, Been in Houston a while now, so, being newer to Houston and Texas, what do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Robert: Oh, barbecue. I love the quality of the food meats you know the taste. I think it's good that there's a competition between barbecue to see who's best. I love like playing that game. Chris: It's a good experience as well, there's so many good options. Last week, in fact, someone was visiting Houston, so we've heard all about Texas barbecue. Where do you recommend we go? And I was stumped. Tell me kind of what you like or what you want, because it depends. That's great. So if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Robert: Yeah, so that's easy. I spend the first two weeks at home just being at home. You know being a dad being, you know being a husband. I think that's very, very important, boy, that would be a good vacation. Chris: Yeah. Robert: And then maybe the last two weeks I'd stay here in Texas. I go to Hill Country. Yeah, there's so many great places in Texas. It's like a whole different country really. Chris: Sure. Robert: You could go to Dallas and spend some time downtown Dallas doing some fun stuff. You could stay here in Houston and experience all kinds of interesting stuff. Or you could go to Austin, go to Hill Country. It's just the dynamic is incredible. Chris: Couldn't agree more, so I'd stay here close to home. I travel enough. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well, Robert:, thank you again for agreeing to be a guest. I loved hearing your story and what you're doing at World View and the team that you all have there. So thanks again. Robert: Absolutely, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Chris. Special Guest: Robert Grosz.

Today's episode of The Skylark Bell was made in collaboration with The Haunted UK podcast. It is a little different than what you've become used to at The Skylark Bell; it is recorded in Audio Drama format as a phone call between two characters, and features an introduction and voice acting by the host of The Haunted UK podcast. Fair warning, this episode may also be slightly scarier than a typical episode of The Skylark Bell.Story and Script by The Haunted UKFind The Haunted UK podcast's 2021 Halloween Special here *We suggest listening to this FIRST*: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0bvnvqkUCIxmFA2DWuomp2?si=f4LImIeoTJ6zKeMJa6WUlgFind The Haunted UK podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hauntedukpodcast/The Skylark Bell is brought to you by: Phaeton Starling Publishing and Things with Wings Productions.The Skylark Bell official website - http://www.theskylarkbell.comThe Skylark Bell on Instagram: @theskylarkbellAuthor/Producer: Melissa Oliveri - http://www.melissaoliveri.comJoin Melissa's Patreon for early access to podcast episodes, music downloads, and more: http://www.patreon.com/melissaoliveriMelissa on Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@melissaoliveriAll music by Cannelle: http://www.cannellemusic.comCannelle on Instagram: @cannelle.musicOfficial Merch Shops: http://www.melissaoliveri.com/storeFULL TRANSCRIPT:Things with Wings productions presents – A Special episode of The Skylark Bell, in collaboration with The Haunted UK Podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Oliveri.Before you begin this episode, I strongly suggest you hit pause, and go visit The Haunted UK podcast's 2021 Halloween Special episode, the link is in the show notes. It is a fantastic episode retelling a story that will give you chills. Then, come back here for an epilogue of sorts... Now, today's episode of The Skylark Bell is a little different than what you're used to, as it is recorded in Audio Drama format as a phone call between two characters, and features an introduction and voice acting by the host of The Haunted UK. This episode may also be slightly scarier than a typical episode of The Skylark Bell.Alright, you've been warned! Now go grab a blanket and a warm drink, and let's get started.Halloween 2021 saw the Haunted UK Podcast publish a bonus episode which told the unbelievable story of an author and his terrifying experience with something completely out of the ordinary. Going by the name of Robert Crawford, this individual tried to gain some sort of normality back into his life...but those experiences on an isolated farm in England's Peak District would continue to haunt him every minute of every day.Little by little Robert's life began to fall apart because of the impact of what he'd witnessed, and also the fact that Gwen and Bernie knew where he lived. He had no idea what had happened to both of them after he left the farm on that final fateful night.... did they both get out of the tunnels under the barn... or did they die down there?? Every day was a waiting game.... would someone come looking for him to make sure that he never spoke of what he saw?Just how long had the existence of this bloodline of creatures been kept secret, and how many actually knew about what was going on at the farm. Maybe it was paranoia, but since the events witnessed by Robert Crawford had happened, he began to record his phone calls and document any events which he felt were strange.From his diary notes he mentioned a number of times that he felt that he was being followed, but never actually saw anyone. He also says that his house phone would ring a number of times every day, but nobody would speak... there would just be light breathing. Was this someone from the farm, or was it someone else entirely? Crawford would have his phone disconnected and would then rely completely on his iPhone, which few people had the number for.What you are about to hear is a telephone conversation which allegedly took place a few months ago. The audio file for this conversation was on a USB drive which had been posted in a padded envelope. We've taken the liberty of re-recording this conversation to protect those involved and to also keep the real name of the farm under wraps. There was also a written note enclosed which simply read "Seek out the Book of Aldaraia".After a little bit of digging regarding the book mentioned in the note, the Book of Aldaraia is also known as the Book of Soyga....or The Book That Kills. It's not known who actually wrote this book, but it was part of the extensive library of John Dee until his death in 1608. Legend has it that a medium by the name of Edward Kelley was used by John Dee to help translate the book, which was mostly in Latin, in 1582.Kelley offered John Dee the chance to speak to the Archangel Uriel to help him decode the most mysterious sections of the book, which are around 40,000 seemingly randomly distributed letters. Not satisfied with the secrets of magic, divination, spells, incantations, and details regarding demonology already discovered within the book, John Dee wanted the key to unlock the code within these characters. When he asked Kelley to instruct the Archangel Uriel to give up the code he refused, telling him that only the Archangel Michael could truly decode and translate the full potential of the book.... and that wasn't something that was going to happen. The contents were just too dangerous.So, what mysterious powers lay behind these layers of random letters? It's still unknown today, but John Dee devoted his entire life trying to crack this code and upon his death in 1608, the book went missing... until 1994. Where had it been? What was it used for, and what did it have to do with what went on at the farm? The book resides in the British Library to this day.Here is the phone conversation, make of it what you will...(iPhone rings and Robert Crawford answers.)Robert: Hello (short period of silence)...Hello...Laura:  Is this Robert Crawford??Robert: Ermm..who's asking?Laura:  My name is Laura Arden....I work at the Natural History Museum in London...in the Department of Medieval and Latter Antiquities...so sorry to call so late, but I was wondering if you could help me out with something?Robert: Sorry, but how did you get this number? Are you American??Laura: Canadian actually....ummm...well, a little research and access to some databases and I managed to find you. You're a really difficult guy to track down considering you're an author.Robert: Well, I prefer to keep as much of my life as private as possible. What is it you wanted again?Laura: I just needed to ask you a few questions about something that I think you may be able to help with......you can look me up online at the museum if you like....Robert: No, no,...there's no need for that. I just don't get many phone calls nowadays, that's all.Laura: So....do you think you could help me out??Robert: ..Sure, yes, I'll try my best....This isn't about a book signing is it??Laura:  No, no, no....although I have read a couple of your books, but no....I was wondering if you'd be kind enough to help me get to the bottom of something that I found while I was on vacation...it may have something to do with you.Robert: I suppose so...but I'm not sure how much help I'm going to be, but fire awayLaura:  Ok...bit of a strange question for starters, but do you have any interest in the occult...witchcraft...black magic...things like that?Robert: Well if you say you've read a few of my books then you'll know that I sometimes dabble in those topics....look, what's this about exactly, and how can this have anything to do with me??Laura:  Well it's not just about something that I found, but more about the location it was found in....and I think you can give me some valuable information about this location.Robert: Ok, look it's late and I don't want to come across as being rude, but can you just get to the point please??Laura:  Ok...fair enough.....Have you ever been to Manor Ridge Farm Mr Crawford??(a long silence)Laura:  Hello??...Mr Crawford...Hello??...are you still there??Robert: Yeah..I'm still here....how do you know that name??Laura:  Have you been there...or not Mr Crawford?Robert: Look, there's nothing I can help you with Laura...it's been lovely talking to you but I have things to...(Laura cuts in)Laura: (more forcefully now) HAVE YOU BEEN THERE OR NOT???Robert: ....yes...I was there around a year ago.Laura:  Good...now we're getting somewhere. So what circumstance led you to Manor Ridge Farm??Robert: In all honesty...I had writers block while I was working my next book. I needed a change of scenery...something to snap me back in to focus. I found a cottage for rent on the farm and hired it. The different views, the atmosphere, the clean air...it was supposed to help but....well...it didn't.Laura:  So what happened??Robert: Hold on...how do you even know I was there? Are you working with the police or something?Laura:  Police???..no..it's..it's nothing like that. As I said..I was on vacation and found something.Robert: So why don't you enlighten me as to what you've found...and why were YOU up at that farm??Laura:  I was on a week long hiking vacation in the Peak District. I planned to get as many of the trails under my belt as possible...same as you, take in the views, absorb the atmosphere...get away from the city. I'm not really someone who enjoys being in other people's back pockets if you know what I mean? I prefer my own company at times and this vacation was one that I was going to go on alone.Robert: So you came across the farm as a place to stay??Laura:  Yes...but not because I'd organised it. Weather had turned bad, and it was getting late. I was literally in the middle of nowhere in the pouring rain and it was getting dark. I saw a farmhouse with lights on in the distance so I headed towards it. The owners told me that they didn't take in visitors...don't get me wrong, they weren't nasty...far from it, they were really helpful. They told me that Manor Ridge Farm had a cottage that they hired out, I should head there and see if they could help, so I did.Robert: So you make your way to the farm....then what?Laura:  Well, I got to the main house and I saw a cottage opposite a barn further up the driveway, so, assuming that this was the place, I knocked on the door and was greeted by a woman...I'd say she was in her fifties...maybe sixties...had a patch covering one eye. She introduced herself as Gwen and seemed friendly enough. When I asked about the cottage she was more than happy to help, but something seemed off....I didn't know what it was at the time...but something just didn't seem right.Robert: Was there anyone else in the Farm House...a man maybe...or outside??Laura:  I never saw anyone other than Gwen...anyway, she said that the cottage hadn't been let out for a while so was in a bit of a mess, but I was welcome to stay the night if I wanted. Well, there was no way that I was going to stay out in the rain overnight, so I jumped at the chance. She gave me the key and walked up to the cottage with me and quickly showed me around...that's when she started to make me feel uncomfortable.Robert: In what way? What did she do?Laura:  She just suddenly said that she needed to go, and I was to stay in the cottage and not come out until morning. She said that many people had gone missing in the area because they didn't know the hills and the weather...it was just really creepy. Anyway, she just took off towards the barn and I thought that was strange because the weather was getting really bad...why not go back to the house?Robert: You didn't go back out there did you??Laura:  No, not right away...I wanted to get out of my wet clothes, get changed and get warm. I had a few chocolate bars in my pack, but was really hungry so I started to hunt around to see if there were any cans of soup or something like that to eat...but there wasn't anything....so that's when I decided to go down to the farm house.Robert: I can't believe you went back out there...especially down to the house. If you've managed to track me down and link me to that place then surely you know something of what went on there...if not...why are you calling?Laura:  I'm getting to that....so...I went down to the main house, and by this time it was dark, pouring with rain and the wind was really getting strong. As I got to the front door, I noticed it was wide open...so I stepped inside and called out for Gwen...but there was no answer...and then the smell hit me...a kind of blood-like metallic smell. I went into the kitchen and....well it looked like something had been torn to pieces. It was definitely an animal...but that was all I could make out. I began to feel sick and knew that I had to get out of there as quickly as possible...and that's when I saw the book on the floor.Robert: Book!!! What book?? You hung around because of a book??Laura:  This wasn't any ordinary book Robert...from the markings on the front of the leather cover I knew it was old...so I grabbed it and ran for the front door. I took a look around, didn't see anyone so then ran for the cottage and locked myself inside.Robert: Why didn't you phone the police?? Why didn't you.....no signal....you didn't have a phone signal did you?Laura:  No...my phone was the first thing I checked when I'd locked the front door. I was trapped there until the morning and there was no way that I was going back down to the main house after what I'd seen.Robert: Well at least you were safe for the time being...when I was there I wasn't so lucky. It was Bernie who came for me with a....well...that's in the past now. So what was so special about this book?Laura:  At the Museum we have archives of extremely old, rare and precious books...bibles, authors first volumes, writings from kings and queens of the past...and books about the occult...the supernatural...black magic...witchcraft. Some of these books go back to at least the 1500's and their contents are still considered by some to be highly dangerous...but this book was more than just a book...it was a diary. A diary of generations of individuals who had been blessed by a specific bloodline.Robert: Blessed!!! I don't think you realise exactly what you were dealing with there Laura. What I saw at that farm challenged every single thing that I thought was pure and simple fiction...what I encountered, firsthand, wasn't something that was blessed...it was something that every man, woman and child should only encounter in their nightmares...but there it was...right in front of me...and it was being protected...coverted...aloud to exist.Laura:  But yours was an accidental encounter Robert....if you hadn't discovered that cave system then none of this would have happened...(Robert cuts in)Robert: How do you know about the cave??? Who told you about that?? Is my name in that book??Laura:  Yes, it is, everything that happened over the time period that you were at the farm was recorded, first by Bernie, then by Gwen. I'm assuming that you know what happened to Bernie after you left them both locked up in the tunnels under the barn?Robert: You make this sound like all of this was intentional...as if I wanted this to happen. Do you know what this whole experience did to me? It left me alone...I lost my partner...my publishing deal...my confidence...my life. I hardly leave the house, never socialise. I'll tell you what I think happened to Bernie shall I? Bernie was murdered by whatever that thing was that Gwen turned into...but if I say what I know it is...then it makes it real...and it can't be. It just can't be. When I was taken down into the tunnels by Bernie, at gunpoint might I add, I was never supposed to come back out...it was only down to chance and luck that I made it out alive....so...I ask you again...why do you need my help?Laura:  I'm so sorry Robert....I never meant to make you feel that way. What you went through was horrific, but here we both are...armed with the experiences and facts that prove that what was only considered to be something from folklore...is in fact real...I can't quite believe that I'm actually saying this myself...but it's true. If I were to go to my head of department with this book and this story.... they'd have me committed...but you've seen these things...you're the only one who knows what Gwen really is....a Werewolf...a Lycanthrope...a shapeshifter.Robert: STOP!!! Stop....please....I can't help you....I've tried desperately for the last 12 months to try and forget what happened but it's impossible. If I had the chance I'd go back to the farm and simply kill Gwen and put an end to all of it....but I can't...I can't go back there.Laura:  Listen...I get it...I really do, but there are far more people at risk now. As mad as all of this sounds it was Bernie that kept the lid on all of this by knowing when to take Gwen down to the tunnels to lock her away when the condition started to take over. Reading in the book, Bernie had documented that Gwen had escaped a number of times and attacked animals on the hills...she almost made it to the village one time....(Robert Interupts)Robert: I know!!!...Bernie explained all of this. He told me that it was him that used to take her down there to feed...to isolate her away from others...to protect her. But Bernie isn't there anymore...so who's locking her away now when she needs to feed...who's protecting her now?? Why haven't we had headlines in the newspapers of some rampant wild animal attacking people on the hills and in the villages?Laura:  Because she's doing it herself. Gwen had written entries into the book stating that after she had woken from the last transformation in the caves, she found that she'd killed Bernie....ripped him apart. She managed to find her way out of the tunnels via the cave system that you found the entrance to up on the hillside. She had to wait until darkness to make her way back to the house where she cleaned herself up, opened the trap door in the barn, and took care of Bernie's body. Then she waited...waited to see if you, the police, or both would turn up...but nothing.Robert: Who was I supposed to tell? Who was going to believe a story like that...you?? It's only after you've read that book that you finally realise what's actually out there...but all you're basing your opinion on is my testimony and what's written down. All of this could be lie...you haven't actually seen it...have you?Laura:  .....yes....I have.Robert: But you said that you locked yourself away in the cottage after you came from the house...did you go back out??Laura:  Yes...I had to....Robert: What do you mean you had to??? What happened??Laura:  I'd made sure that everything was locked up tight after what I'd seen in the farmhouse, and I'd bedded down in the living room on the couch. I grabbed the book I'd found and started to leaf through it.... I couldn't believe what I was reading, there were details of ancient ceremonies, symbols, potions and treatments that had been passed down from generation to generation over the span of hundreds and hundreds of years.... all with the same one goal: to rid the beast from within, to cure the condition. It seems that no one actually knows where this bloodline started, but in a passage from the late 1900's written by a man named Harold Thomas Anderson, he mentions a cave system in Romania where he was due to travel to find the "Primal". Whether this was a person or a creature isn't confirmed....and there are no other entries from this man in the book, but he was definitely part of the bloodline. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. So, I'm lying on the couch when I begin to hear something moving from outside of the rear of the cottage, as if someone was bumping into stuff and knocking it over.Robert: Did you see what what it was??Laura:  Not at first no. I ran upstairs and looked out of one of the rear bedroom windows, but I couldn't see anything. I initially put it down to the wind and rain, until I heard a loud screaming sound. This wasn't the sound a human would make, it sounded animalistic...guttural...as if something was in terrible pain. It sounded as if it was coming from outside the front of the cottage this time, so I ran across the landing and into the master bedroom and peered out of the window....and I saw it....it was Gwen....she was naked, crawling across the floor of the barn trying to get to an opening in the floor....but as I watched I could see hair growing, slowly covering her body...joints bending in ways that seemed impossible....more screams pierced the air as the process continued....then it happened.Robert: What happened??Laura:  She saw me, she looked straight at me.Robert: Oh my god....what did you do??Laura: At first, I was completely frozen to the spot. Both of our stares fixed at one another; mine terrified, hers furious, full of rage. Her eyes looked black, and her face was... it was changing... changing right in front of me. She then rose herself up onto all fours and started to walk towards the cottage. I've never felt fear like that in my life, watching something like that slowly walking over to the place that you hope will keep you safe, but knowing that it will never be a match for it.Robert: Jesus Laura....I can remember knives being in the kitchen. Did you manage to get hold of something to try and defend yourself with?Laura:  Yes...one of the knives. I figured that she was either going to try and get through the front or back door, so I ran downstairs and pushed the large wooden dresser across the back door to try and buy me some time...then I went to the front door and looked out of the window. I couldn't see her, she was out there somewhere but I couldn't see her. Then something hit the back door and I heard glass shatter. I quickly closed the living room door and pushed the couch up against it, not that it would have provided much resistance against her, but it went quiet again.I stood up against the front door with tears starting to stream down my face. I was mentally broken....I couldn't believe the situation that I'd found myself in, and I couldn't see how I was going to get myself out of it. I couldn't call my mom and dad to tell them that I loved them...to hear their voices...to have that comfort...I was going to die here...and there wasn't anything that anyone could do to help me.Suddenly there was a huge bang at the front door, so powerful that the door frame moved. I pushed back at the door screaming for her to go away. Another bang came and it was clear that the door wasn't going to last long. I pushed as hard as I could and gripped the knife, readying myself to use it if I had to. Then another huge blow came against the door and it finally buckled. An arm, covered in grey/black hair came around the door and grabbed my wrist and pulled my arm outside....then I felt searing pain as teeth pierced my skin and bit down hard into my arm. I screamed again louder, and pulled as hard as I could to get my arm back inside the door but it was no use....this thing was so strong. A clawed hand reached inside the door against the frame to try and push the door open. I immediately raised the knife using my other arm and plunged it into the hand.I pulled it back out to strike again but a huge scream came from her and she let go of my arm and the door closed with me falling against it and onto the floor. I sat there, back up against the door waiting for her to smash into it again and finish the job off...but there was nothing. I plucked up the courage to look out of the window but she'd vanished....I had no idea where she'd gone.Robert: How bad was your arm??Laura:  There were four deep pucture wounds and a few shallower ones. It looked worse than it actually was with all of the blood, but I needed to clean it up. I waited for what seemed like hours, but when I was pretty sure that she wasn't coming back I got hold of my back pack and my first aid kit. I used a towel from the kitchen to take care of most of the blood and then pushed the sofa back against the door. It was just a matter of a couple of hours before daylight and then I'd be gone...or so I thought.Robert: What do you mean "so you thought"....she didn't come back did she??Laura:  No...well...not exactly. I watched the sunlight fill the cottage as morning broke and I wasn't going to hang around, so I grabbed my stuff, packed my bag and got ready to get the hell out. I figured I'd go out the back way and get across the fields as quickly as I could and try to make it to a road. Hopefully I could hitchhike to a town or village from there.....but then there was a knock at the front door....it was Gwen. She asked me to open the door. She assured me that nothing would happen....but also that we needed to talk....urgently.Robert: What did you do?? Did you let her in??Laura:  I didn't have a choice. What was I going to do....stay in the cottage for the rest of my life? I opened the door, slowly at first, then wider. She could see that I had the knife in my hand and I told her that I would use again if I had to. She said there was no need....she wouldn't harm me. She reached out her hand....it was bandaged up now...and she asked for the book back. I handed it over and that's when she began to speak. She explained that the book had details of potions which could delay the effects of the condition. When her husband was around she never needed them, because he would take care of her when the urges came.It was her dog that she had killed in the farmhouse when I found all of the blood in the kitchen with the book. The hunger, as she called it, became so overwhelming that she couldn't control it and the remedy that she'd mixed was in the tunnels under the barn...that's where she was trying to get to when we saw each other. For years her and Bernie searched for a cure to stop her condition, and while she never told me how she'd become infected, she did tell me that the bloodlines stretched around the world....and all of the infected are looking for that illusive cure....and now so am I.Robert: What do you mean?? Why would you be helping her find a cure after what she did to you??Laura:  Because her bite has now infected me....and I now need to find that cure....and you're going to help me.....and Gwen....Robert: What....are you mad?? Why the hell am I going to put myself at risk yet again to help you or Gwen!! She almost killed me, and you're asking me to.....I'm sorry Laura, but even though none of what happened was your fault, you're both on your own... (silence)... Laura... Laura are you still there? Do you understand what I'm saying to you???Laura:  It's a nice part of the world you live in Robert....not many houses around....nice and quiet....Robert: What are you talking about?? How do you know where I live....are you threatening me?? I can leave here right now and you'll never find me.Laura:  I don't think so Mr Crawford....why don't you take a look outside your window....you see that silver car across your driveway? Well I've been here since this call began, and I'm not leaving until you make a decision...the right decision. And also, don't think about trying to leave using the backdoor....because there's someone you may well remember who'll be waiting for you in your garden. The hunger is getting strong Mr Crawford....and whilst Gwen and myself have a remedy that we can drink to delay the inevitable...we don't have to drink it...and you're the only one who knows what we are....and if we have to permanently silence you then we will.Robert: If you try to get in here I'll call the police.Laura:  The Police!!! What will they do to help you? You'll be dead before they even arrive. So what it's to be Robert?? Are coming back to the farm to take care of us.....or are we coming into your house to take care of you?? You've got 2 minutes to decide...and if you hang up we'll be inside before you know it. All of your questions will be answered in time, and I give you my word that you'll be safe...but you need to make the right decision...so...tick-tock, tick-tock....time is running out....To be continued.....Thank you so much for listening.  Join me next week for the last Skylark Special episode of the year, a touching story called Elliot Under Glass, and please be sure to subscribe to The Haunted UK podcast if you haven't already, the content and sound quality are unbeatable.If you enjoyed this story, please consider leaving a rating and a review, it's quick and free, and incredibly helpful in giving the podcast visibility so others can find and enjoy it.If you'd like to support my work, you can subscribe to Patreon or Ko-Fi for exclusive content and advance access to podcast episodes. You can also follow me on social media so we can stay in touch, all necessary links are in my bio.Once again, thank you for listening, On behalf of myself and The Haunted UK podcast, we wish you happy... or spooky if that's your thing... holidays.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/theskylarkbell/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

About RobertR2 advocates for Liquibase customers and provides technical architecture leadership. Prior to co-founding Datical (now Liquibase), Robert was a Director at the Austin Technology Incubator. Robert co-founded Phurnace Software in 2005. He invented and created the flagship product, Phurnace Deliver, which provides middleware infrastructure management to multiple Fortune 500 companies.Links: Liquibase: https://www.liquibase.com Liquibase Community: https://www.liquibase.org Liquibase AWS Marketplace: https://aws.amazon.com/marketplace/seller-profile?id=7e70900d-dcb2-4ef6-adab-f64590f4a967 Github: https://github.com/liquibase Twitter: https://twitter.com/liquibase TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com. Corey: You know how Git works right?Announcer: Sorta, kinda, not really. Please ask someone else.Corey: That's all of us. Git is how we build things, and Netlify is one of the best ways I've found to build those things quickly for the web. Netlify's Git-based workflows mean you don't have to play slap-and-tickle with integrating arcane nonsense and web hooks, which are themselves about as well understood as Git. Give them a try and see what folks ranging from my fake Twitter for Pets startup, to global Fortune 2000 companies are raving about. If you end up talking to them—because you don't have to; they get why self-service is important—but if you do, be sure to tell them that I sent you and watch all of the blood drain from their faces instantly. You can find them in the AWS marketplace or at www.netlify.com. N-E-T-L-I-F-Y dot com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This is a promoted episode. What does that mean in practice? Well, it means the company who provides the guest has paid to turn this into a discussion that's much more aligned with the company than it is the individual.Sometimes it works, Sometimes it doesn't, but the key part of that story is I get paid. Why am I bringing this up? Because today's guest is someone I met in person at Monktoberfest, which is the RedMonk conference in Portland, Maine, one of the only reasons to go to Maine, speaking as someone who grew up there. And I spoke there, I met my guest today, and eventually it turned into this, proving that I am the envy of developer advocates everywhere because now I can directly tie me attending one conference to making a fixed sum of money, and right now they're all screaming and tearing off their headphones and closing this episode. But for those of you who are sticking around, thank you. My guest today is the CTO and co-founder of Liquibase. Please welcome Robert Reeves. Robert, thank you for joining me, and suffering the slings and arrows I'm about to hurled directly into your arse, as a warning shot.Robert: [laugh]. Man. Thanks for having me. Corey, I've been looking forward to this for a while. I love hanging out with you.Corey: One of the things I love about the Monktoberfest conference, and frankly, anything that RedMonk gets up to is, forget what's on stage, which is uniformly excellent; forget the people at RedMonk who are wonderful and I aspire to do more work with them in different ways; they're great, but the people that they attract are invariably interesting, they are invariably incredibly diverse in terms of not just demographics, but interests and proclivities. It's just a wonderful group of people, and every time I get the opportunity to spend time with those folks I do, and I've never once regretted it because I get to meet people like you. Snark and cynicism about sponsoring this nonsense aside—for which I do thank you—you've been a fascinating person to talk to you because you're better at a lot of the database-facing things than I am, so I shortcut to instead of forming my own opinions, I just skate off of yours in some cases. You're going to get letters now.Robert: Well, look, it's an occupational hazard, right? Releasing software, it's hard so you have to learn these platforms, and part of it includes the database. But I tell you, you're spot on about Monktoberfest. I left that conference so motivated. Really opened my eyes, certainly injecting empathy into what I do on a day-to-day basis, but it spurred me to action.And there's a lot of programs that we've started at Liquibase that the germination for that seed came from Monktoberfest. And certainly, you know, we were bummed out that it's been canceled two years in a row, but we can't wait to get back and sponsor it. No end of love and affection for that team. They're also really smart and right about a hundred percent of the time.Corey: That's the most amazing part is that they have opinions that generally tend to mirror my own—which, you know—Robert: [laugh].Corey: —confirmation bias is awesome, but they almost never get it wrong. And that is one of the impressive things is when I do it, I'm shooting from the hip and I already have an apology half-written and ready to go, whereas when dealing with them, they do research on this and they don't have the ‘I'm a loud, abrasive shitpostter on Twitter' defense to fall back on to defend opinions. And if they do, I've never seen them do it. They're right, and the fact that I am as aligned with them as I am, you'd think that one of us was cribbing from the other. I assure you that's not the case.But every time Steve O'Grady or Rachel Stephens, or Kelly—I forget her last name; my apologies is all Twitter, but she studied medieval history, I remember that—or James Governor writes something, I'm uniformly looking at this and I feel a sense of dismay, been, “Dammit. I should have written this. It's so well written and it makes such a salient point.” I really envy their ability to be so consistently on point.Robert: Well, they're the only analysts we pay money to. So, we vote with our dollars with that one. [laugh].Corey: Yeah. I'm only an analyst when people have analyst budget. Other than that, I'm whatever the hell you describe me. So, let's talk about that thing you're here to show. You know, that little side project thing you found and are the CTO of.I wasn't super familiar with what Liquibase does until I looked into it and then had this—I got to say, it really pissed me off because I'm looking at it, and it's how did I not know that this existed back when the exact problems that you solve are the things I was careening headlong into? I was actively annoyed. You're also an open-source project, which means that you're effectively making all of your money by giving things away and hoping for gratitude to come back on you in the fullness of time, right?Robert: Well, yeah. There's two things there. They're open-source component, but also, where was this when I was struggling with this problem? So, for the folks that don't know, what Liquibase does is automate database schema change. So, if you need to update a database—I don't care what it is—as part of your application deployment, we can help.Instead of writing a ticket or manually executing a SQL script, or generating a bunch of docs in a NoSQL database, you can have Liquibase help you out with that. And so I was at a conference years ago, at the booth, doing my booth thing, and a managing director of a very large bank came to me, like, “Hey, what do you do?” And saw what we did and got angry, started yelling at me. “Where were you three years ago when I was struggling with this problem?” Like, spitting mad. [laugh]. And I was like, “Dude, we just started”—this was a while ago—it was like, “We just started the company two years ago. We got here as soon as we could.”But I struggled with this problem when I was a release manager. And so I've been doing this for years and years and years—I don't even want to talk about how long—getting bits from dev to test to production, and the database was always, always, always the bottleneck, whether it was things didn't run the same in test as they did, eventually in production, environments weren't in sync. It's just really hard. And we've automated so much stuff, we've automated application deployment, lowercase a compiled bits; we're building things with containers, so everything's in that container. It's not a J2EE app anymore—yay—but we haven't done a damn thing for the database.And what this means is that we have a whole part of our industry, all of our database professionals, that are frankly struggling. I always say we don't sell software Liquibase. We sell piano recitals, date nights, happy hours, all the stuff you want to do but you can't because you're stuck dealing with the database. And that's what we do at Liquibase.Corey: Well, you're talking about database people. That's not how I even do it. I would never call myself that, for very good reason because you know, Route 53 remains the only database I use. But the problem I always had was that, “Great. I'm doing a deployment. Oh, I'm going to put out some changes to some web servers. Okay, what's my rollback?” “Well, we have this other commit we can use.” “Oh, we're going to be making a database schema change. What's your rollback strategy,” “Oh, I've updated my resume and made sure that any personal files I had on my work laptop been backed up somewhere else when I immediately leave the company when we can't roll back.” Because there's not really going to be a company anymore at that point.It's one of those everyone sort of holds their breath and winces when it comes to anything that resembles a schema change—or an ALTER TABLE as we used to call it—because that is the mistakes will show territory and you can hope and plan for things in pre-prod environments, but it's always scary. It's always terrifying because production is not like other things. That's why I always call my staging environment ‘theory' because things work in theory but not in production. So, it's how do you avoid the mess of winding up just creating disasters when you're dealing with the reality of your production environments? So, let's back up here. How do you do it? Because it sounds like something people would love to sell me but doesn't exist.Robert: [laugh]. Well, it's real simple. We have a file, we call it the change log. And this is a ledger. So, databases need to be evolved. You can't drop everything and recreate it from scratch, so you have to apply changes sequentially.And so what Liquibase will do is it connects to the database, and it says, “Hey, what version are you?” It looks at the change log, and we'll see, ehh, “There's ten change sets”—that's what components of a change log, we call them change sets—“There's ten change sets in there and the database is telling me that only five had been executed.” “Oh, great. Well, I'll execute these other five.” Or it asks the database, “Hey, how many have been executed?” And it says, “Ten.”And we've got a couple of meta tables that we have in the database, real simple, ANSI SQL compliant, that store the changes that happen to the database. So, if it's a net new database, say you're running a Docker container with the database in it on your local machine, it's empty, you would run Liquibase, and it says, “Oh, hey. It's got that, you know, new database smell. I can run everything.”And so the interesting thing happens when you start pointing it at an environment that you haven't updated in a while. So, dev and test typically are going to have a lot of releases. And so there's going to be little tiny incremental changes, but when it's time to go to production, Liquibase will catch it up. And so we speak SQL to the database, if it's a NoSQL database, we'll speak their API and make the changes requested. And that's it. It's very simple in how it works.The real complex stuff is when we go a couple of inches deeper, when we start doing things like, well, reverse engineering of your database. How can I get a change log of an existing database? Because nobody starts out using Liquibase for a project. You always do it later.Corey: No, no. It's one of those things where when you're doing a project to see if it works, it's one of those, “Great, I'll run a database in some local Docker container or something just to prove that it works.” And, “Todo: fix this later.” And yeah, that todo becomes load-bearing.Robert: [laugh]. That's scary. And so, you know, we can help, like, reverse engineering an entire database schema, no problem. We also have things called quality checks. So sure, you can test your Liquibase change against an empty database and it will tell you if it's syntactically correct—you'll get an error if you need to fix something—but it doesn't enforce things like corporate standards. “Tables start with T underscore.” “Do not create a foreign key unless those columns have an ID already applied.” And that's what our quality checks does. We used to call it rules, but nobody likes rules, so we call it quality checks now.Corey: How do you avoid the trap of enumerating all the bad things you've seen happen because at some point, it feels like that's what leads to process ossification at large companies where, “Oh, we had this bad thing happen once, like, a disk filled up, so now we have a check that makes sure that all the disks are at least 20, empty.” Et cetera. Great. But you keep stacking those you have thousands and thousands and thousands of those, and even a one-line code change then has to pass through so many different tests to validate that this isn't going to cause the failure mode that happened that one time in a unicorn circumstance. How do you avoid the bloat and the creep of stuff like that?Robert: Well, let's look at what we've learned from automated testing. We certainly want more and more tests. Look, DevOp's algorithm is, “All right, we had a problem here.” [laugh]. Or SRE algorithm, I should say. “We had a problem here. What happened? What are we going to change in the future to make sure this doesn't happen?” Typically, that involves a new standard.Now, ossification occurs when a person has to enforce that standard. And what we should do is seek to have automation, have the machine do it for us. Have the humans come up and identify the problem, find a creative way to look for the issue, and then let the machine enforce it. Ossification happens in large organizations when it's people that are responsible, not the machine. The machines are great at running these things over and over again, and they're never hung over, day after Super Bowl Sunday, their kid doesn't get sick, they don't get sick. But we want humans to look at the things that we need that creative energy, that brain power on. And then the rote drudgery, hand that off to the machine.Corey: Drudgery seems like sort of a job description for a lot of us who spend time doing operation stuff.Robert: [laugh].Corey: It's drudgery and it's boring, punctuated by moments of sheer terror. On some level, you're more or less taking some of the adrenaline high of this job away from people. And you know, when it comes to databases, I'm kind of okay with that as it turns out.Robert: Yeah. Oh, yeah, we want no surprises in database-land. And that is why over the past several decades—can I say several decades since 1979?Corey: Oh, you can s—it's many decades, I'm sorry to burst your bubble on that.Robert: [laugh]. Thank you, Corey. Thank you.Corey: Five, if we're being honest. Go ahead.Robert: So, it has evolved over these many decades where change is the enemy of stability. And so we don't want change, and we want to lock these things down. And our database professionals have become changed from sentinels of data into traffic cops and TSA. And as we all know, some things slip through those. Sometimes we speed, sometimes things get snuck through TSA.And so what we need to do is create a system where it's not the people that are in charge of that; that we can set these policies and have our database professionals do more valuable things, instead of that adrenaline rush of, “Oh, my God,” how about we get the rush of solving a problem and saving the company millions of dollars? How about that rush? How about the rush of taking our old, busted on-prem databases and figure out a way to scale these up in the cloud, and also provide quick dev and test environments for our developer and test friends? These are exciting things. These are more fun, I would argue.Corey: You have a list of reference customers on your website that are awesome. In fact, we share a reference customer in the form of Ticketmaster. And I don't think that they will get too upset if I mention that based upon my work with them, at no point was I left with the impression that they played fast and loose with databases. This was something that they take very seriously because for any company that, you know, sells tickets to things you kind of need an authoritative record of who's bought what, or suddenly you don't really have a ticket-selling business anymore. You also reference customers in the form of UPS, which is important; banks in a variety of different places.Yeah, this is stuff that matters. And you support—from the looks of it—every database people can name except for Route 53. You've got RDS, you've got Redshift, you've got Postgres-squeal, you've got Oracle, Snowflake, Google's Cloud Spanner—lest people think that it winds up being just something from a legacy perspective—Cassandra, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, CockroachDB. I could go on because you have multiple pages of these things, SAP HANA—whatever the hell that's supposed to be—Yugabyte, and so on, and so forth. And it's like, some of these, like, ‘now you're just making up animals' territory.Robert: Well, that goes back to open-source, you know, you were talking about that earlier. There is no way in hell we could have brought out support for all these database platforms without us being open-source. That is where the community aligns their goals and works to a common end. So, I'll give you an example. So, case in point, recently, let me see Yugabyte, CockroachDB, AWS Redshift, and Google Cloud Spanner.So, these are four folks that reached out to us and said, either A) “Hey, we want Liquibase to support our database,” or B) “We want you to improve the support that's already there.” And so we have what we call—which is a super creative name—the Liquibase test harness, which is just genius because it's an automated way of running a whole suite of tests against an arbitrary database. And that helped us partner with these database vendors very quickly and to identify gaps. And so there's certain things that AWS Redshift—certain objects—that AWS Redshift doesn't support, for all the right reasons. Because it's data warehouse.Okay, great. And so we didn't have to run those tests. But there were other tests that we had to run, so we create a new test for them. They actually wrote some of those tests. Our friends at Yugabyte, CockroachDB, Cloud Spanner, they wrote these extensions and they came to us and partnered with us.The only way this works is with open-source, by being open, by being transparent, and aligning what we want out of life. And so what our friends—our database friends—wanted was they wanted more tooling for their platform. We wanted to support their platform. So, by teaming up, we help the most important person, [laugh] the most important person, and that's the customer. That's it. It was not about, “Oh, money,” and all this other stuff. It was, “This makes our customers' lives easier. So, let's do it. Oop, no brainer.”Corey: There's something to be said for making people's lives easier. I do want to talk about that open-source versus commercial divide. If I Google Liquibase—which, you know, I don't know how typing addresses in browsers works anymore because search engines are so fast—I just type in Liquibase. And the first thing it spits me out to is liquibase.org, which is the Community open-source version. And there's a link there to the Pro paid version and whatnot. And I was just scrolling idly through the comparison chart to see, “Oh, so ‘Community' is just code for shitty and you're holding back advanced features.” But it really doesn't look that way. What's the deal here?Robert: Oh, no. So, Liquibase open-source project started in 2006 and Liquibase the company, the commercial entity, started after that, 2012; 2014, first deal. And so, for—Nathan Voxland started this, and Nathan was struggling. He was working at a company, and he had to have his application—of course—you know, early 2000s, J2EE—support SQL Server and Oracle and he was struggling with it. And so he open-sourced it and added more and more databases.Certainly, as open-source databases grew, obviously he added those: MySQL, Postgres. But we're never going to undo that stuff. There's rollback for free in Liquibase, we're not going to be [laugh] we're not going to be jerks and either A) pull features out or, B) even worse, make Stephen O'Grady's life awful by changing the license [laugh] so he has to write about it. He loves writing about open-source license changes. We're Apache 2.0 and so you can do whatever you want with it.And we believe that the things that make sense for a paying customer, which is database-specific objects, that makes sense. But Liquibase Community, the open-source stuff, that is built so you can go to any database. So, if you have a change log that runs against Oracle, it should be able to run against SQL Server, or MySQL, or Postgres, as long as you don't use platform-specific data types and those sorts of things. And so that's what Community is about. Community is about being able to support any database with the same change log. Pro is about helping you get to that next level of DevOps Nirvana, of reaching those four metrics that Dr. Forsgren tells us are really important.Corey: Oh, yes. You can argue with Nicole Forsgren, but then you're wrong. So, why would you ever do that?Robert: Yeah. Yeah. [laugh]. It's just—it's a sucker's bet. Don't do it. There's a reason why she's got a PhD in CS.Corey: She has been a recurring guest on this show, and I only wish she would come back more often. You and I are fun to talk to, don't get me wrong. We want unbridled intellect that is couched in just a scintillating wit, and someone is great to talk to. Sorry, we're both outclassed.Robert: Yeah, you get entertained with us; you learn with her.Corey: Exactly. And you're still entertained while doing it is the best part.Robert: [laugh]. That's the difference between Community and Pro. Look, at the end of the day, if you're an individual developer just trying to solve a problem and get done and away from the computer and go spend time with your friends and family, yeah, go use Liquibase Community. If it's something that you think can improve the rest of the organization by teaming up and taking advantage of the collaboration features? Yes, sure, let us know. We're happy to help.Corey: Now, if people wanted to become an attorney, but law school was too expensive, out of reach, too much time, et cetera, but they did have a Twitter account, very often, they'll find that they can scratch that itch by arguing online about open-source licenses. So, I want to be very clear—because those people are odious when they email me—that you are licensed under the Apache License. That is a bonafide OSI approved open-source license. It is not everyone except big cloud companies, or service providers, which basically are people dancing around—they mean Amazon. So, let's be clear. One, are you worried about Amazon launching a competitive service with a dumb name? And/or have you really been validated as a product if AWS hasn't attempted and failed to launch a competitor?Robert: [laugh]. Well, I mean, we do have a very large corporation that has embedded Liquibase into one of their flagship products, and that is Oracle. They have embedded Liquibase in SQLcl. We're tickled pink because that means that, one, yes, it does validate Liquibase is the right way to do it, but it also means more people are getting help. Now, for Oracle users, if you're just an Oracle shop, great, have fun. We think it's a great solution. But there's not a lot of those.And so we believe that if you have Liquibase, whether it's open-source or the Pro version, then you're going to be able to support all the databases, and I think that's more important than being tied to a single cloud. Also—this is just my opinion and take it for what it's worth—but if Amazon wanted to do this, well, they're not the only game in town. So, somebody else is going to want to do it, too. And, you know, I would argue even with Amazon's backing that Liquibase is a little stronger brand than anything they would come out with.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense. Corey: So, I want to call out though, that on some level, they have already competed with you because one of database that you do not support is DynamoDB. Let's ignore the Route 53 stuff because, okay. But the reason behind that, having worked with it myself, is that, “Oh, how do you do a schema change in DynamoDB?” The answer is that you don't because it doesn't do schemas for one—it is schemaless, which is kind of the point of it—as well as oh, you want to change the primary, or the partition, or the sort key index? Great. You need a new table because those things are immutable.So, they've solved this Gordian Knot just like Alexander the Great did by cutting through it. Like, “Oh, how do you wind up doing this?” “You don't do this. The end.” And that is certainly an approach, but there are scenarios where those were first, NoSQL is not a acceptable answer for some workloads.I know Rick [Horahan 00:26:16] is going to yell at me for that as soon as he hears me, but okay. But there are some for which a relational database is kind of a thing, and you need that. So, Dynamo isn't fit for everything. But there are other workloads where, okay, I'm going to just switch over. I'm going to basically dump all the data and add it to a new table. I can't necessarily afford to do that with anything less than maybe, you know, 20 milliseconds of downtime between table one and table two. And they're obnoxious and difficult ways to do it, but for everything else, you do kind of need to make ALTER TABLE changes from time to time as you go through the build and release process.Robert: Yeah. Well, we certainly have plans for DynamoDB support. We are working our way through all the NoSQLs. Started with Mongo, and—Corey: Well, back that out a second then for me because there's something I'm clearly not grasping because it's my understanding, DynamoDB is schemaless. You can put whatever you want into various arbitrary fields. How would Liquibase work with something like that?Robert: Well, that's something I struggled with. I had the same question. Like, “Dude, really, we're a schema change tool. Why would we work with a schemaless database?” And so what happened was a soon-to-be friend of ours in Europe had reached out to me and said, “I built an extension for MongoDB in Liquibase. Can we open-source this, and can y'all take care of the care and feeding of this?” And I said, “Absolutely. What does it do?” [laugh].And so I looked at it and it turns out that it focuses on collections and generating data for test. So, you're right about schemaless because these are just documents and we're not going to go through every single document and change the structure, we're just going to have the application create a new doc and the new format. Maybe there's a conversion log logic built into the app, who knows. But it's the database professionals that have to apply these collections—you know, indices; that's what they call them in Mongo-land: collections. And so being able to apply these across all environments—dev, test, production—and have consistency, that's important.Now, what was really interesting is that this came from MasterCard. So, this engineer had a consulting business and worked for MasterCard. And they had a problem, and they said, “Hey, can you fix this with Liquibase?” And he said, “Sure, no problem.” And he built it.So, that's why if you go to the MongoDB—the liquibase-mongodb repository in our Liquibase org, you'll see that MasterCard has the copyright on all that code. Still Apache 2.0. But for me, that was the validation we needed to start expanding to other things: Dynamo, Couch. And same—Corey: Oh, yeah. For a lot of contributors, there's a contributor license process you can go through, assign copyright. For everything else, there's MasterCard.Robert: Yeah. Well, we don't do that. Look, you know, we certainly have a code of conduct with our community, but we don't have a signing copyright and that kind of stuff. Because that's baked into Apache 2.0. So, why would I want to take somebody's ability to get credit and magical internet points and increase the rep by taking that away? That's just rude.Corey: The problem I keep smacking myself into is just looking at how the entire database space across the board goes, it feels like it's built on lock-in, it's built on it is super finicky to work with, and it generally feels like, okay, great. You take something like Postgres-squeal or whatever it is you want to run your database on, yeah, you could theoretically move it a bunch of other places, but moving databases is really hard. Back when I was at my last, “Real job,” quote-unquote, years ago, we were late to the game; we migrated the entire site from EC2 Classic into a VPC, and the biggest pain in the ass with all of that was the RDS instance. Because we had to quiesce the database so it would stop taking writes; we would then do snapshot it, shut it down, and then restore a new database from that RDS snapshot.How long does it take, at least in those days? That is left as an experiment for the reader. So, we booked a four hour maintenance window under the fear that would not be enough. It completed in 45 minutes. So okay, there's that. Sparked the thing up and everything else was tested and good to go. And yay. Okay.It took a tremendous amount of planning, a tremendous amount of work, and that wasn't moving it very far. It is the only time I've done a late-night deploy, where not a single thing went wrong. Until I was on the way home and the Uber driver sideswiped a city vehicle. So, there we go—Robert: [laugh].Corey: —that's the one. But everything else was flawless on this because we planned these things out. But imagine moving to a different provider. Oh, forget it. Or imagine moving to a different database engine? That's good. Tell another one.Robert: Well, those are the problems that we want our database professionals to solve. We do not want them to be like janitors at an elementary school, cleaning up developer throw-up with sawdust. The issue that you're describing, that's a one time event. This is something that doesn't happen very often. You need hands on the keyboard, you want people there to look for problems.If you can take these database releases away from those folks and automate them safely—you can have safety and speed—then that frees up their time to do these other herculean tasks, these other feats of strength that they're far better at. There is no silver bullet panacea for database issues. All we're trying to do is take about 70% of DBAs time and free it up to do the fun stuff that you described. There are people that really enjoy that, and we want to free up their time so they can do that. Moving to another platform, going from the data center to the cloud, these sorts of things, this is what we want a human on; we don't want them updating a column three times in a row because dev couldn't get it right. Let's just give them the keys and make sure they stay in their lane.Corey: There's something glorious about being able to do that. I wish that there were more commonly appreciated ways of addressing those pains, rather than, “Oh, we're going to sell you something big and enterprise-y and it's going to add a bunch of process and not work out super well for you.” You integrate with existing CI/CD systems reasonably well, as best I can tell because the nice thing about CI/CD—and by nice I mean awful—is that there is no consensus. Every pipeline you see, in a release engineering process inherently becomes this beautiful bespoke unicorn.Robert: Mm-hm. Yeah. And we have to. We have to integrate with whatever CI/CD they have in place. And we do not want customers to just run Liquibase by itself. We want them to integrate it with whatever is driving that application deployment.We're Switzerland when it comes to databases, and CI/CD. And I certainly have my favorite of those, and it's primarily based on who bought me drinks at the last conference, but we cannot go into somebody's house and start rearranging the furniture. That's just rude. If they're deploying the app a certain way, what we tell that customer is, “Hey, we're just going to have that CI/CD tool call Liquibase to update the database. This should be an atomic unit of deployment.” And it should be hidden from the person that pushes that shiny button or the automation that does it.Corey: I wish that one day that you could automate all of the button pushing, but the thing that always annoyed me in release engineering was the, “Oh, and here's where we stop to have a human press the button.” And I get it. That stuff's scary for some folks, but at the same time, this is the nature of reality. So, you're not going to be able to technology your way around people. At least not successfully and not for very long.Robert: It's about trust. You have to earn that database professional's trust because if something goes wrong, blaming Liquibase doesn't go very far. In that company, they're going to want a person [laugh] who has a badge to—with a throat to choke. And so I've seen this pattern over and over again.And this happened at our first customer. Major, major, big, big, big bank, and this was on the consumer side. They were doing their first production push, and they wanted us ready. Not on the call, but ready if there was an issue they needed to escalate and get us to help them out. And so my VP of Engineering and me, we took it. Great. Got VP of engineering and CTO. Right on.And so Kevin and I, we stayed home, stayed sober [laugh], you know—a lot of places to party in Austin; we fought that temptation—and so we stayed and I'm texting with Kevin, back and forth. “Did you get a call?” “No, I didn't get a call.” It was Friday night. Saturday rolls around. Sunday. “Did you get a—what's going on?” [laugh].Monday, we're like, “Hey. Everything, okay? Did you push to the next weekend?” They're like, “Oh, no. We did. It went great. We forgot to tell you.” [laugh]. But here's what happened. The DBAs push the Liquibase ‘make it go' button, and then they said, “Uh-Oh.” And we're like, “What do you mean, uh-oh?” They said, “Well, something went wrong.” “Well, what went wrong?” “Well, it was too fast.” [laugh]. Something—no way. And so they went through the whole thing—Corey: That was my downtime when I supposed to be compiling.Robert: Yeah. So, they went through the whole thing to verify every single change set. Okay, so that was weekend one. And then they go to weekend two, they do it the same thing. All right, all right. Building trust.By week four, they called a meeting with the release team. And they said, “Hey, process change. We're no longer going to be on these calls. You are going to push the Liquibase button. Now, if you want to integrate it with your CI/CD, go right ahead, but that's not my problem.” Dev—or, the release team is tier one; dev is tier two; we—DBAs—are tier three support, but we'll call you because we'll know something went wrong. And to this day, it's all automated.And so you have to earn trust to get people to give that up. Once they have trust and you really—it's based on empathy. You have to understand how terrible [laugh] they are sometimes treated, and to actively take care of them, realize the problems they're struggling with, and when you earn that trust, then and only then will they allow automation. But it's hard, but it's something you got to do.Corey: You mentioned something a minute ago that I want to focus on a little bit more closely, specifically that you're in Austin. Seems like that's a popular choice lately. You've got companies that are relocating their headquarters there, presumably for tax purposes. Oracle's there, Tesla's there. Great. I mean, from my perspective, terrific because it gets a number of notably annoying CEOs out of my backyard. But what's going on? Why is Austin on this meteoric rise and how'd it get there?Robert: Well, a lot of folks—overnight success, 40 years in the making, I guess. But what a lot of people don't realize is that, one, we had a pretty vibrant tech hub prior to all this. It all started with MCC, Microcomputer Consortium, which in the '80s, we were afraid of the Japanese taking over and so we decided to get a bunch of companies together, and Admiral Bobby Inman who was director planted it in Austin. And that's where it started. You certainly have other folks that have a huge impact, obviously, Michael Dell, Austin Ventures, a whole host of folks that have really leaned in on tech in Austin, but it actually started before that.So, there was a time where Willie Nelson was in Nashville and was just fed up with RCA Records. They would not release his albums because he wanted to change his sound. And so he had some nice friends at Atlantic Records that said, “Willie, we got this. Go to New York, use our studio, cut an album, we'll fix it up.” And so he cut an album called Shotgun Willie, famous for having “Whiskey River” which is what he uses to open and close every show.But that album sucked as far as sales. It's a good album, I like it. But it didn't sell except for one place in America: in Austin, Texas. It sold more copies in Austin than anywhere else. And so Willie was like, “I need to go check this out.”And so he shows up in Austin and sees a bunch of rednecks and hippies hanging out together, really geeking out on music. It was a great vibe. And then he calls, you know, Kris, and Waylon, and Merle, and say, “Come on down.” And so what happened here was a bunch of people really wanted to geek out on this new type of country music, outlaw country. And it started a pattern where people just geek out on stuff they really like.So, same thing with Austin film. You got Robert Rodriguez, you got Richard Linklater, and Slackers, his first movie, that's why I moved to Austin. And I got a job at Les Amis—a coffee shop that's closed—because it had three scenes in that. There was a whole scene of people that just really wanted to make different types of films. And we see that with software, we see that with film, we see it with fashion.And it just seems that Austin is the place where if you're really into something, you're going to find somebody here that really wants to get into it with you, whether it's board gaming, D&D, noise punk, whatever. And that's really comforting. I think it's the community that's just welcoming. And I just hope that we can continue that creativity, that sense of community, and that we don't have large corporations that are coming in and just taking from the system. I hope they inject more.I think Oracle's done a really good job; their new headquarters is gorgeous, they've done some really good things with the city, doing a land swap, I think it was forty acres for nine acres. They coughed up forty for nine. And it was nine acres the city wasn't even using. Great. So, I think they're being good citizens. I think Tesla's been pretty cool with building that factory where it is. I hope more come. I hope they catch what is ever in the water and the breakfast tacos in Austin.Corey: [laugh]. I certainly look forward to this pandemic ending; I can come over and find out for myself. I'm looking forward to it. I always enjoyed my time there, I just wish I got to spend more of it.Robert: How many folks from Duckbill Group are in Austin now?Corey: One at the moment. Tim Banks. And the challenge, of course, is that if you look across the board, there really aren't that many places that have more than one employee. For example, our operations person, Megan, is here in San Francisco and so is Jesse DeRose, our manager of cloud economics. But my business partner is in Portland; we have people scattered all over the country.It's kind of fun having a fully-distributed company. We started this way, back when that was easy. And because all right, travel is easy; we'll just go and visit whenever we need to. But there's no central office, which I think is sort of the dangerous part of full remote because then you have this idea of second-class citizens hanging out in one part of the country and then they go out to lunch together and that's where the real decisions get made. And then you get caught up to speed. It definitely fosters a writing culture.Robert: Yeah. When we went to remote work, our lease was up. We just didn't renew. And now we have expanded hiring outside of Austin, we have folks in the Ukraine, Poland, Brazil, more and more coming. We even have folks that are moving out of Austin to places like Minnesota and Virginia, moving back home where their family is located.And that is wonderful. But we are getting together as a company in January. We're also going to, instead of having an office, we're calling it a ‘Liquibase Lounge.' So, there's a number of retail places that didn't survive, and so we're going to take one of those spots and just make a little hangout place so that people can come in. And we also want to open it up for the community as well.But it's very important—and we learned this from our friends at GitLab and their culture. We really studied how they do it, how they've been successful, and it is an awareness of those lunch meetings where the decisions are made. And it is saying, “Nope, this is great we've had this conversation. We need to have this conversation again. Let's bring other people in.” And that's how we're doing at Liquibase, and so far it seems to work.Corey: I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, once this whole pandemic ends, and how things continue to thrive. We're long past due for a startup center that isn't San Francisco. The whole thing is based on the idea of disruption. “Oh, we're disruptive.” “Yes, we're so disruptive, we've taken a job that can be done from literally anywhere with internet access and created a land crunch in eight square miles, located in an earthquake zone.” Genius, simply genius.Robert: It's a shame that we had to have such a tragedy to happen to fix that.Corey: Isn't that the truth?Robert: It really is. But the toothpaste is out of the tube. You ain't putting that back in. But my bet on the next Tech Hub: Kansas City. That town is cool, it has one hundred percent Google Fiber all throughout, great university. Kauffman Fellows, I believe, is based there, so VC folks are trained there. I believe so; I hope I'm not wrong with that. I know Kauffman Foundation is there. But look, there's something happening in that town. And so if you're a buy low, sell high kind of person, come check us out in Austin. I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from moving to Austin; I'm not one of those people. But if the housing prices [laugh] you don't like them, check out Kansas City, and get that two-gig fiber for peanuts. Well, $75 worth of peanuts.Corey: Robert, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me so extensively about Liquibase, about how awesome RedMonk is, about Austin and so many other topics. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Robert: Well, I think the best place to find us right now is in AWS Marketplace. So—Corey: Now, hand on a second. When you say the best place for anything being the AWS Marketplace, I'm naturally a little suspicious. Tell me more.Robert: [laugh]. Well, best is, you know, it's—[laugh].Corey: It is a place that is there and people can find you through it. All right, then.Robert: I have a list. I have a list. But the first one I'm going to mention is AWS Marketplace. And so that's a really easy way, especially if you're taking advantage of the EDP, Enterprise Discount Program. That's helpful. Burn down those dollars, get a discount, et cetera, et cetera. Now, of course, you can go to liquibase.com, download a trial. Or you can find us on Github, github.com/liquibase. Of course, talking smack to us on Twitter is always appreciated.Corey: And we will, of course, include links to that in the [show notes 00:46:37]. Robert Reeves, CTO and co-founder of Liquibase. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment complaining about how Liquibase doesn't support your database engine of choice, which will quickly be rendered obsolete by the open-source community.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Challenges, obstacles and painful experiences — these are just some of things life throws our way when we least expect them. But no matter where you are in life right now, remember that you can push past the hard times. You can learn how to rise above life’s challenges. And if you feel lost, here’s a little secret: help others. Being of service to other people can help you find strength and a way out of your problems. In this episode, Robert Joseph Cappuccio, widely known as Bobby, joins us to share his inspiring story of defying hardships and helping others. It’s easier to succumb to self-sabotage and addiction. But you have the power to make your experiences an opportunity for change and hope. Bobby also shares the importance of helping others, especially as a business owner and leader. If you want to learn how to rise above trauma and be inspired to become a force of good to the world, then this episode is for you!    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how to rise above adversities. Understand the importance of intention and knowing who you serve. Learn the difference between internal and external customers and why you need to start focusing on the former.    Resources Gain exclusive access to premium podcast content and bonuses! Become a Pushing the Limits Patron now! Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio. Connect with Bobby: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram The Self-Help Antidote podcast by Bobby Cappuccio PTA Global The You Project Podcast by Craig Harper The Psychology of Winning: Ten Qualities of a Total Winner by Denis Waitley    Episode Highlights [05:49] Bobby’s Childhood Bobby was born with deformities. He was adopted by a man who had cancer.  After Bobby’s adoptive father passed, his adoptive mother entered a relationship with a cruel man. Bobby experienced all kinds of abuse throughout his childhood on top of having Tourette’s syndrome.  Doctors had to put him on Haldol, which damaged his brain.  Yet, Bobby shares that these painful experiences helped him resonate with others and thrive in his industry.  [12:48] How Bobby Got to Where He is Today  Bobby initially wanted to become a police officer for special victims.  He almost passed the written and psychological assessments, but there was an issue because of Tourette syndrome. At this time, he started working at a gym.  Bobby worked hard. Eventually, he caught the eye of the gym owner, Mitchell.  Mitchell became like a surrogate father and mentor to him. Listen to the full episode to hear how Mitchell shaped Bobby and put him on the path to success!   [20:31] Complications from Abuse and Empathy Some adults tried to intercede for Bobby when he was being abused as a kid. However, he avoided their help because he was scared of being harmed further. You can't just leave an abuser — it's difficult, and even simply attempting can hurt you. We should understand that abuse can affect anyone.  Confident and intelligent women may be particularly susceptible to abuse because they find themselves in a situation they didn’t expect.  [28:58] How Abuse Isolates People Abusers progressively isolate people by creating enemies out of strong alliances.  This can make someone lose their sense of self, making them more vulnerable and dependent on their abusers.  Assigning fault or blame to those being abused will not help anyone.  If anything, that stops people from coming forward.  [30:34] Help Others to Help Yourself Bobby learned how to rise above his traumas and negative emotions.  His mentor taught him to look beyond himself. It was only by helping others find a way out of their problems that Bobby found a way to help himself too.  He started to focus on helping people who were going through something similar to what he went through. [33:32] Focus on the Intention While working as a trainer, Bobby focused less on the transactional side of training and more on the transformational.  He wanted to help people find what they need at that moment and give them the support they need.  By focusing on his intention, he was able to get high rates of retention.  For Bobby, helping others means understanding their goals and wishes.  [36:12] Bobby’s Promotion Bobby’s exemplary performance led him to a promotion that he didn’t want. He was scared of disappointing Mitchell.   He did poorly in managing his team of trainers, which is when a consultant sat him down and gave him advice.  Mitchell also had Bobby stand up and speak in team meetings.  You need to know who you work for and who you serve. When your perspective is aligned with your work, you will bring that to every meeting and interaction.  Are you taking care of the people you need to be responsible for? Hear how Bobby figured out his answer in the full episode!  [43:14] Lessons on Leadership Companies often adopt a top-down mentality where bosses need to be followed. However, a company should not be like this. Companies are made up of people. Your business needs to care for your valuable customers, both internal and external.  Treat your team members with the same level of tenacity, sincerity and intention as your external customers. You can accomplish a lot if you hire the right person, set clear expectations and understand each individual’s motivations. Through these, you can develop the team’s capacity and channel it towards a common vision. [51:19] On Recruiting the Right People David Barton hired Bobby to work as his head of training.  Bobby asked David what two things Bobby should do to contribute the most to the company. David wanted Bobby to be a connoisseur of talent and to train them, train them and train them again.  Bobby brought this mindset throughout his career, and it’s served him well. Don’t be afraid to hire people who are smarter than you.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘When you know that there's somewhere you want to go, but you don't know exactly where that is. And you don't have complete confidence in your ability to get there. And what a good guy does is they help you go just as far as you can see.’ ‘We form and calibrate and shape our sense of identity in the context in which we navigate through the world off of one another. And when you're isolated with a distorted sense of reality, and you lose your sense of self, you become highly incapacitated to take action in this situation.’ ‘So I started focusing on things and a mission and people outside of myself. Who's going through something similar to what I have gone through, even if it's not precisely the same situation? How do I help them find their way out? And by helping them find their way out, I found my way up.’ ‘I never saved anyone; you can't change anyone but yourself. But the reason why he called me that is anytime someone would think about joining the gym...I approached it from a transformational perspective.’ ‘And your job is to create and keep your internal customer by serving them with at the very least with the same tenacity, sincerity and intention that you are serving your external customer. If you don't do that, you're going to be shit as a leader.’ ‘I think the only people who don't have impostor syndrome are imposters. Because if you're fraudulent, you wouldn't engage in the level of self-honesty, and humility, and conscientiousness, to go, “Am I fraudulent; is there something that I’m missing?”’ ‘Anything I've ever accomplished, it's totally through other people. It's because I hired people that were a lot smarter than me.’   About Robert Robert Joseph Cappuccio, or Bobby, is a behaviour change coach, author, consultant, speaker and fitness professional. He is a trainer of trainers and at the forefront of the life-altering and ever-evolving industry of coaching.  For over two decades, he has been advocating and pushing the industry-wide and individual shift of perspective in development. Behaviour change is rooted in a holistic approach, not just goals to health and fitness. With his vision, he co-founded PTA Global. It has now become a leader in professional fitness development.  No matter how successful Bobby seems, it didn't start this way. His childhood was filled with neglect, abuse and traumas that could lead anyone on the path to drinking and addiction. Bobby is no stranger to hardship and challenges, but he uses these experiences to connect and relate to others, using his past hardship as a way to help others. Bobby is also the former head of training and development at David Barton Gym, former director of professional development at the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM), content curator for PTontheNet, development consultant for various companies including Hilton Hotels, Virgin Active, Equinox, David Lloyd Leisure and multiple businesses nationally and abroad.  With his forward-thinking mindset and work ethic, Bobby champions practical programs that help both corporate and industry personnel, including individuals, get what they truly want. He advocates the process of change mixed in with the mantra of ‘you can be free to play’.  Interested in Bobby’s work? You can check out his website and listen to his Self-Help Antidote Podcast! Reach out to Bobby on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends to offer them one way to rise above their trauma. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing the Limits, your host Lisa Tamati here, and today I have a fantastic guest all the way from America again, this man goes by the name of Bobby Cappuccio. And he is a world-famous fitness professional. He trains a lot of the trainers that are out there. But Bobby has an incredible story that I really want to share with you today. So, Bobby was born with a severe facial deformity. And he also had deformed legs, and he was given up for adoption. His mother couldn't care for him, and he ended up being adopted by another man. But he had a very, very abusive rough childhood. He also developed Tourette Syndrome at the age of nine. In all this adversity you'd think like ‘oh my gosh, what sort of a life is this guy going to live’? But Bobby has had an incredible life. He's a fitness professional, as I said, he's worked in many gyms. He was the founder and co-owner of PTA Global, which does a lot of the professional fitness development. And he has devised his own strategies and ways of educating people. And his programs are just second to none. When I told my business partner, Neil, that I just interviewed Bobby Cappuccio, he's like, ‘Oh, my God, he's a legend in the space.’ So yeah, he was really a bit jealous that I got to speak to him. So I hope you enjoy this interview. It's some rough topics in there. But there's also some really great gems of wisdom. And the funny thing is what Bobby is just absolutely hilarious as well. So I do hope you enjoy it. Before we head over to the show, though, just want to let you know that we've launched a premium membership for the podcast. This is a patron membership so that you can become a VIP member of our tribe, help support the podcast. This podcast has been going now for five and a half years. It's a labour of love, I can tell you. It takes up a huge amount of my time and resources in both getting these world-class gifts for you, and also in study and research so that I can talk really, and interview very well all these crazy, amazing doctors, scientists, elite athletes and performers. So if you want to support us in keeping the show going, and like what we do in the world, and you want to keep those valuable content being able to be put out into the world, we'd love your support. And for that, we're going to give you lots of member, premium member, benefits. So, check it out at patron.lisatamati.com. That’s patron.lisatamati.com. That’s P-A-T-R-O-N dot Lisa Tamati dot com. And I just also wanted to remind you about my new anti-ageing and longevity supplement, NMN. I’ve co-worked together with molecular biologist, Dr. Elena Seranova, to make sure that you get the best quality NMN there is now. I searched all over the world for this stuff, when I learned about it, and researched about it, and how it works and what it does in the body, and there is a huge amount of science on it. A lot of it's up on our website, if you want to do a deep dive into all things NMN and the NAD precursor, then check it out. It's all about longevity. It's all about slowing down the ageing process and even reversing the ageing process. So if that's something that interests you, and you want high performance, you want help with cardiovascular health, with neuro protection, with metabolic disorders, then this is something that you should look into as well. So check that out at nmnbio.nz, that’s nmnbio.nz, and go and check that out. The supplements have been so popular that I haven't been able to keep up with orders. So on some of the orders, there is a bit of a backorder. But bear with me while we will scale up production. But go over and check that out at nmnbio.nz. Right over to the show with Bobby Cappuccio. Lisa: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today I have another very, very special guest and I was recently on this gentleman's show and now we're doing a reverse interview. I have Robert Cappuccio with me. Robert, welcome to the show. Robert Cappuccio: Oh, thank you. When you say you had a very special guest, I thought you were bringing someone else on. Lisa: You are a really special guest. Robert: Had a lot of anticipation like who is this person? What a surprise! Lisa: Well, you're a bit of an interesting character. Let's say that, throw that. Robert: Just the microphone. Lisa: No, I'm really, really interested to hear your story and to share your story with my audience, and to give a bit more of a background on you. And share gems of wisdom from your learnings from your life, because you've done some pretty cool stuff. You've had some pretty hard times and I'd like to share those learnings with my audience today. So Robert, whereabouts are you sitting at the moment, whereabouts are you in the States? Robert: Okay, so at the moment, I'm in a place called Normal Heights, which is probably a misnomer. It's not normal at all. But it's a really cool, funky neighbourhood in San Diego. Lisa: San Diego, awesome. And how’s lockdown going over there, and all of that sort of carry on? Robert: Oh, it’s great. I mean, on St. Patty's day, I've got my skull from our own green. I've just had a few whiskies. So far, so good. Lisa: This is a very interesting interview. So can you give us a little bit of background? Because you've had a very interesting, shall we say, difficult upbringing and childhood. And I wanted to perhaps start there and then see where this conversation goes a little. Robert: Is there any place you want to start, in particular? How far back do you want to go? Do you want to start from the very beginning? Lisa: Please go right at the very beginning, because you're intro to your backstory is quite interesting from the beginning, really isn't that? Robert: Okay, so I was born, which is obvious, in Manhattan, and I moved to Brooklyn early. So I was born, rather deformed. I was born with a significant facial deformity. And my lower extremities, my legs, quite never— like, if you saw my legs now, they're great. I have a great pair of legs at this moment. I'm not going to show you that because that would be a little bit rude. But my legs were kind of deformed and contorted. I had to walk with braces for the first couple of years of my life. I was given up for adoption. I'm not exactly sure, I have the paperwork on why I was given up for adoption, but I'm not really certain about the authenticity of that story. And I wasn't adopted for a while. So as an infant, I was parentless and homeless and really not well-tended to. I'm not going to get into why I say that because it's pretty disgusting. And then I was adopted. And then my adoptive father, this is kind of interesting, he had cancer, and he knew during the adoption process that he was probably not going to make it. He wanted to make sure that I found a home because nobody wanted to adopt me. Because when they came in, I was physically deformed. It's like, ‘Oh, this baby’s, it's broken. Something's wrong. Do you have a better baby’? And when he saw that, he thought, ‘Right, I've got to give this kid a home.’ So he passed. He passed when I was two. I didn't know him for more than a few months. And I hardly have any memory of him at all. My mother who adopted me, to be fair, she's developmentally disabled, and so she was a single uom with not a lot of skills, not a lot of prospects, terrified. And she basically, I think she met a guy when I was five, who I don't know if there's a diagnosis for him. He was mentally disturbed. He was a psychopath. I don't know if clinically he’s a psychopath, but that's pretty much how it felt. Lisa: You were a child experiencing this. Yeah. Robert: Yeah, I'm not like, I'm never sure in what direction to go with stuff like this. Never sure what’s valid, what's relevant. I spent my childhood in stressed positions, being woken up in the middle of the night with a pillow over my face, having bones broken consistently, and a series of rape, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and just every sort of trauma. Like imagine when I was nine years old, I was diagnosed, on top of that, with Tourette Syndrome. So I was physically deformed, going through shit like that at home. And then on top of it, I started losing control of my bodily functions. I started exhibiting tics, I started exhibiting obsessive compulsive behaviour. At some point, it was uncontrollable, like lack of control of my impulses, of the things that I would say, vulgarity. At some point, the doctors just thought that perhaps I was Scottish. Lisa: And you’re funny as well. Robert: And they put me on Haldol, which damaged my brain. That and the fact that, it's estimated, I've had at least over a half a dozen major concussions within my childhood — Lisa: From the abuse. Robert: — half a dozen to a dozen massive concussions. Yeah. Lisa: Absolute horrific start into life. Robert: When I was 10, I started binge drinking. And I thought this will help, this is a solution. But you know what? It's not. It's a little bit weird when you start a story off like this, because in some sense, it's not me being delusional, or Pollyanna, because I tend to think that I'm a little bit of a realist, sometimes too much, sometimes to the point of walking a fine edge between being hopeful and being a cynic. But I have to say that a lot of things that I experienced when I was growing up, turned out to be quite beneficial. It’s shaped me in a way and it helped me engage in certain career paths and certain activities that I don't think I really would have sought out, had this stuff not happened. So it's not like me, delusionally trying to create like all silver lining about stuff, it was shit. I understand the severity of what I went through. But I also understand where that led me. And I understand the good fortune that I had of running into certain people that resonated with me, and I resonated with them, largely in part because of my history. I don't think I would have related to these people had I not come from where I came from. Lisa: So you’re talking like people along the way that were, ended up being mentors, or teachers or friends or helping you out and through these horrific situations? Is that what you're meaning, sort of thing that would actually helped you? Because I mean, given a background like that, if you were a complete disaster and drug addict, and whatever, nobody would blame you.  You didn't have a good start in life, whatsoever. I mean, look at you now. Obviously you don't have any facial deformities, and you don't exhibit, right now, any of that stuff that actually you were and have been through. So how the hell did you get to where you are today? Because you're a very successful person, you have a very successful and a very strong influence in the world. What, how the heck do you go from being that kid, with brain problems and concussions and Tourette’s and abuse and rape and all of that, to being the person who comes across as one, number one, hilarious, very crazy and very cool?  How the heck do you get from there to there? Lisa: Just listening to, I can tell that you're someone who's highly intelligent, perceptive and an amazing judge of humour. So thank you for that. I think a lot of it was quite accidental. So I had thought when I was younger, that I wanted to be a police officer, originally. And I wanted to be involved with special victims, even before that was a TV show. Brilliant show, by the way, one of my favourite shows on TV. But even before that was the TV show, I thought, if I'm going through what I went through, and it's very hard because I had Child Services in New York City, they were called ACS. They were at my house consistently. But the problem is, I believed at a young age that my stepfather was nearly invincible, like nobody could touch him. Lisa: You were powerless against him. Yeah. Robert: And when they came to the house and like, look, I had broken bones, my arm was in a sling. A lot of times, I broke my tibia. They won't take me to the hospital because they thought they would suspect stepdad of doing it. I couldn't even walk. And these people were sitting down, said, ‘Well just tell us what happened.’ And I somehow knew that, at a critical moment, my adopted mother would falter. She would not have my back. She would rescind on everything she says. Lisa: She was frightened too, no doubt. Robert: She was frightened. I don't think she had the emotional or intellectual capacity to deal with the situation. That's all I'll say on that. But I knew once they left, I just knew they couldn't do anything, unless I was all-in. And if anything went wrong, he would kill me. So I would have to just say that, ‘Well, I fell.’ And it’s like, there's no way a fork, like I would go into camp and I would have stab wounds in the shape of a fork. And people are like, ‘What happened?’ And I said, ‘I was walking, and I tripped, and I fell onto a fork that went through my thigh and hit my femur.’ It's like, okay, that's just not possible. But I kind of knew. And I kind of felt like nobody's coming to the rescue. And I thought, if I was a police officer, and I was worked with special victims, maybe I could be the person that I always wished would show up for me. But then, there were issues with that. So I think I got like, out of a possible 100 on the police test. I did fairly well. I think I got 103, there were master credit questions. And I thought, right, yeah, I'm going. And then I took the psychological and by some weird measure, I passed, that seems crazy to me now. It kind of seems problematic. I think they need to revisit that. But then when I took the medical, and with Tourette's, it was kind of like, ‘Ah, yeah.’ It was a sticking point. So I had to petition because otherwise I would be disqualified from the employment police department. And during that time, I started working in the gyms. And when I was working the gyms, I kind of thought, there's no way I'll ever be as intelligent as some of these other trainers here. I'm just going to make up with work ethic what I lack in intellect. I would run around and just tried to do everything I could. I would try to clean all the equipment, make sure that the gym was spotless. But again, kind of like not like having all my wits about me, I would be spraying down a machine with WD-40. And what I didn't account for is, the person who was on the machine next to me, I'd be spraying him in the face with WD-40 when he was exercising. Lisa: They still do that today, by the way. The other day in the gym and the girl next to me, she was blind, and she was just spraying it everywhere. I had to go and shift to the other end of the gym, is that right, cause I don't like that stuff. Robert: I mean, in my defence, the members were very well-lubricated. And so, people would go upstairs, and like there is this fucking trainer just sprayed me in the face. And the owner would say, ‘All right, let me see who this guy is. What do you talk? This doesn’t even make sense? Who hired this guy?’ We kind of had like the old bowl, the pin. And like you could walk up top and look down into the weight room, and there I was just running around. And there was something about someone running around and hustling on the gym floor that made him interested. He's like, ‘Get this kid up into my office. Let me talk to him.’ And that forged a friendship. I spoke to him yesterday, by the way. So we've been friends for like three decades. And the owner of the gym became kind of like a surrogate dad. And he did for me what most guides do and that is when you know that there's somewhere you want to go, but you don't know exactly where that is, and you don't have complete confidence in your ability to get there. And what a good guy does is they help you go just as far as you can see, because when you get there, you'll see further. And that's what Mitchell did for me. And he was different because I have a lot of adults. So I grew up with not only extreme violence in the home, but I grew up in Coney Island. I grew up living on the corner of Shit Street and Depressing. And there was a constant violence outside the home and in school and I got picked on. And I got bullied until I started fighting, and then I got into a lot of fights. And you just have these adults trying to talk to you and it's like, you don't fucking know me. You have no idea where I come from. You can't relate to me. When you were growing up, you had a home, you were being fed. You were kind of safe, don't even pretend to relate to me. And he was this guy, who, he was arrested over a dozen times by age 30, which was not why I chose him as a mentor. But he had gone through some serious shit. And when he came out on the other end of it, he wanted to be somebody other than his history would suggest he was going to be, and he tried harder at life than anybody I had ever met. So one, I could relate to him, I didn't think he was one of these adults who are just full of shit. I was impressed at how hard he tried to be the person he wanted to be. So there was this mutual respect and affinity, instantly. Lisa: Wow. And he had a massive influence. And we all need these great coaches, mentors, guides, surrogate dads, whatever the case may be, to come along, sometimes in our lives. And when they do, how wonderful and special that is, and someone that you could respect because like you say, I've had a wonderful childhood. In comparison to you, it was bloody Disneyland, and so I cannot relate to some of those things. And I have my own little wee dramas, but they were minor in comparison to what you experienced in the world. So how the heck can I really help you out if you're a young kid that I'm trying to influence. And not that you have to go through everything in order to be of help to anybody, but just having that understanding that your view, your worldview is a limited, privileged background. Compared to you, my background is privileged. Robert: Well, I don't think there's any ‘compared to you’. I think a lot of my reaction to adults around me who tried to intercede — one, if your intercession doesn't work, it's going to get me hurt, bad, or it's going to get me killed. There have been times where I was hung out of an 18-storey window by my ankles. Lisa: You have got to be kidding me. Robert: Like grabbing onto the brick on the side of the building. I can't even say terrified. I don't even know if that encapsulates that experience as a kid. But it's like you don't understand what you can walk away from once you feel good about interceding with this poor, unfortunate kid. I cannot walk away from the situation that you're going to create. So it was defensive mechanism, because pain is relative. I mean, like, you go through a divorce, and you lose this love and this promise, and somebody comes along, ‘Oh there are some people in the world who never had love, so you should feel grateful’. You should fuck off because that's disgusting. And that is totally void of context. I don't think somebody's pain needs to compare to another person's pain in order to be relevant. I think that was just my attitude back then because I was protecting my existence. I've really changed that perspective because, like, my existence isn't threatened day to day anymore. Lisa: Thank goodness. Robert: So I have a different take on that. And I understand that these adults were well meaning, because I also had adults around me, who could have probably done something, but did nothing. And I don't even blame them because my stepfather was a terrifying person. And the amount of work and energy, and the way the laws, the structure, and how threatening he was, I don't blame them. And me? I’ll probably go to prison. But I don't blame them for their inaction. Lisa: Yeah, and this is a problem. Just from my own experiences, like I said, this is not even in childhood, this is in young adulthood, being in an abusive relationship. The dynamic of the stuff that's going on there, you're frightened to leave. You know you are going to be in physical danger if you try and leave. So, I've been in that sort of a position but not as a child. But still in a position where people will think, ‘Well, why don't you just go?’ And I’m just like, ‘Have you ever tried to leave someone who's abusive? Because it's a very dangerous thing to do.’ And you sometimes you’re like, just, you can't, if there's children involved, even, then that's even worse. And there's complicated financial matters. And then there's, whatever the case may be or the circumstances that you're facing, it's not cut and dried. And as an adult, as a powerful woman now, I wouldn't let myself be in a position like that. But I wasn't that back then. And you weren't because well, you were a child. See, you're even more. Robert: I just want to comment on that a little bit. And this is not coming from clinical expertise. This is just coming from my own interpretation experience. I think, obviously, that when a child goes through this, you would think, ‘Okay, if this started at age five, what could you have done?’ But a lot of times we do look at, let's say, women who are in severe domestic violence situations, and we say, ‘Well, how could you have done that? How could you have let somebody do that to you’? And I think we need to really examine that perspective. Because powerful, confident, intelligent women might be especially susceptible. Lisa: Apparently, that’s the case. Robert: Because you have a track record, and you have evidence to support that you are capable, and you're intelligent, and you find yourself in a situation that you didn't anticipate. And I think it's easier to gaslight someone like that. Because it's like, ‘How could I have had a lapse — is it me?’  And it creeps up on you, little by little, where you doubt yourself a little bit more, a little bit more, and then you become more controlled and more controlled. And then your perspective on reality becomes more and more distorted. So I think we have to be very careful when an adult finds themselves, yes, in that position, saying, ‘Well, why didn't you just leave? How could you have let yourself very easily?’ It can happen to anyone, especially if you have a strong sense of confidence and you are intelligent, and because it becomes unfathomable to you, how you got into that situation. Lisa: Looking back on my situation, which is years and years ago now, and have no consequences to the gentleman that I was involved with, because I'm sure he's moved on and hopefully, not the same. But the fact that it shifted over many years, and the control shifted, and the more isolated you became. I was living in a foreign country, foreign language, unable to communicate with my family, etc., etc. back then. And you just got more and more isolated, and the behaviour’s become more and more, more radical ways as time goes on. It doesn't stop there. Everybody's always lovely at the beginning. And then, as the power starts to shift in the relationship — and I've listened to a psychologist, I’ve forgotten her name right now, but she was talking about, she works with these highly intelligent, educated women who are going through this and trying to get out of situations where they shouldn't be in. And she said,  ‘This is some of the common traits. They're the types of people who want to fix things, they are the types of people who are strong and they will never give up.’ And that is actually to their detriment, in this case. And I'm a very tenacious type of person. So, if I fall in love with someone, which you do at the beginning, then you're like, ‘Well, I'm not giving up on this person. They might need some help, and some, whatever’. And when you're young, you think you can change people, and you can fix them. And it took me a number of years to work out and ‘Hang on a minute, I haven't fixed them, I’ve screwed myself over. And I've lost who I am in the process.’ And you have to rebuild yourself. And like you and like your case is really a quite exceptionally extreme. But like you, you've rebuilt yourself, and you've created this person who is exceptional, resilient, powerful, educated, influential — Robert: And dysfunctional. Lisa: And dysfunctional at the same time. Hey, me, too. Robert: And fucked up in 10 different ways. Lisa: Yeah. Hey, none of us have got it right. As our mutual friend, Craig Harper would say, ‘We're just differing degrees of fucked-up-ness’. Robert: That would be spot on. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And totally, some of the most high functioning people that I get to meet, I get to meet some pretty cool people. There's hardly any of them that don't have some area in their life where they've got that fucked-up-ness that's going on, and are working on it, because we're all works in progress. And that's okay. Robert: The thing you said that I really caught is you lost your sense of self, and the isolation. And that is what abusers do, is progressively they start to isolate, and create enemies out of strong alliances and allies. And when you lose your sense of self, and you're so isolated — because as much as we want to be strong and independent, we are highly interdependent, tribal people. We form and calibrate, we shape our sense of identity and the context in which we navigate through the world off of one another. And when you're isolated with a distance sense of reality and you lose your sense of self, you become highly incapacitated to take action in this situation. And you develop, I think what Martin Seligman, called learned helplessness. And I think assigning fault or blame or accusation either to yourself or doing that to somebody else, not only does that not help, it stops people from coming forward. Because it reinforces the mental state that makes them susceptible to perpetual abuse in the first place. Lisa: Yeah, it's so true. So how did you start to turn around? So you meet Mitchell, Mitchell was his name, and he started to be a bit of a guiding light for you and mentor you, and you're in the gym at this phase stage. So, what sort of happened from there on and? So what age were you at this point, like, your teenage years, like teenagers or? Robert: I met Mitchell  when I was like 19 years old. And what he allowed me to do, and it wasn't strategies, he allowed me to focus outside of myself. Because every emotion, every strong emotion you're feeling, especially in a painful way, resides within you. So if you feel a sense of despair, or you feel disgust, or loneliness, or isolation, or any type of pain, and you would look around your room and go, ‘Well, where's that located? Where's my despair? I searched my whole desk, I can't find it’. It's not there. It's not in your outer world. It's your inner world. And what he gave me the ability to do is say, ‘Okay. I grew up physically deformed. And despite everything I was going through, my physical deformities were one of the most painful things’. But the irony, more painful than anything else because you could see me out in the shops and go, ‘Okay, this is a person who has been severely physically sexually abused, who's suffered emotional trauma’. You could see that as I walk through the aisles, because you say, ‘Okay, this is someone who doesn't look right. This is someone who —', and I can see the look of disgust on people's face when they saw me physically. And then there’s nowhere to hide, you couldn’t mask that. I started thinking, ‘Well, what about people who feel that about their physical appearance and they don't require surgery? What are they going through? And how do I focus more on them? How do I take a stand for that person? What's the areas of knowledge? What are the insights? What are the resources that I can give these people to be more resourceful in finding a sense of self and finding their own way forward?’ Lisa: Being okay with the way that they are, because it must be just— Robert: People are okay with the way they are, seeing an ideal version of themselves in the future. And engaging the behaviours that helps them eventually bridge that gap, where their future vision, at some point, becomes their current reality. So I started focusing on things and a mission and people outside of myself, who's going through something similar to what I have gone through, even if it's not precisely the same situation? How do I help them find their way out? And by helping them find their way out, I found my way up. Lisa: Wow, it's gold. And that's what you ended up doing then, and within the gym setting, or how did that sort of work out from there? Robert: Well, I became a trainer. And in the beginning, I was like an average trainer. But I became, what Mitchell called, like the person who saved people. I never saved anyone; you can't change anyone but yourself. But the reason why he called me that is, anytime someone would think about joining the gym, if they would sit down with someone, they approached it from, ‘Well, what can we do? Can we give you a couple of extra months? Can we give you a guest pass to invite some —‘. They approached it from a transactional perspective, where when I sat down with these people, I approached it from a transformational perspective. ‘What did you want most? What do you want most in your life in this moment? And what hasn't happened? What missed? What was the disconnect? Where have we failed? What did you need that was not fulfilled in your experience here and how do we give you those resources? How do we support you going forward?’ And it was also like, ‘Look, if you want to leave, we totally respect that. You've given us a chance to help you. And obviously, the fault was ours. I never blamed anyone. But if you had the chance to do it again, what would have made the difference? And give us that opportunity’. It’s like, ‘Oh, this person is like a retention master’. It's not that, my focus wasn't in retention, it was the intention rather, to relate to the individual in front of me.  Lisa: I’m hearing about the actual person and their actual situation and their actual wishes and goals, rather than, how can I sweeten the deal so you don't leave? Robert: Precisely, and that had some unintended consequences, because it put me in a bad situation, because I got promoted against my will. And I didn’t want to get promoted. And I thought, ‘I'm just getting a reputation for being somewhat good in my current job. And now they're going to promote it to my level of incompetence. And now I'm going to disappoint Mitchell, he's going to find out this kid's actually an idiot, he's a fraud — ‘I was wrong.’ And the one person who believed in me, I'm going to lose his trust and his faith, and that's going to be damaging.’ So me being promoted into management led to a series of unpredictable events that shaped my entire career. Lisa: Okay, tell us about that. Tell us about it. So you were pushed out of your comfort zone, because you just got a grip on this thing, the crazy worker. Robert: So Mitchell had a consultant, and his name was Ray. His name still is Ray, coincidentally. And he said, ‘Yeah, I think you should promote Bobby, just a small promotion to head trainer. Not like fitness manager, just head trainer’. And when they approached me, it was almost like they told me like, I had to euthanise my pet. It was horrible. I was not excited about this. I was like, ‘Oh, thanks. But no, thanks. I love where I'm at.’ Lisa: Yep. ‘I didn’t want to grow.’ Robert: Well, they had a response to that. They said, ‘There’s two directions you can go in this company, you could go up, or you can go out’. And they fired me that day. Lisa: Wow! Because you wouldn’t go up? Robert: They’re like, ‘You've chosen out. And that's okay. That's your decision’. And I was devastated. Like that my identity is connected to that place. And on my way out the door, Mitchell's like, ‘Come into my office.’ And he’s sitting across from me, and he kind of looked like a very muscular, like an extremely muscular version of Burt Reynolds at the time, which was very intimidating, by the way. And he puts his feet up on the desk, and he's leaning back, and he's eating an apple. He says, ‘You know, I heard a rumour that you're recently unemployed. And so I would imagine, your schedules opened up quite a bit this week. You know, coincidentally, we're interviewing for a head trainer position. You might want to come in and apply because you've got nothing to lose’. What a complete and total cock. And I say that, with love, gratitude, gratitude, and love. So I showed up — Lisa: Knew what you needed. Robert: I remember, I showed up in a wrinkly button-down shirt, that is not properly ironed, which was brought to my attention. And I got the job. And I was the worst manager you've ever met in your life because first of all, my motivation was not to serve my team. My motivation was not to disappoint Mitchell. And that was the wrong place for your head to be in, if you have the audacity to step into a leadership position. Whether you tell yourself you were forced into it or not, fact of the matter is ‘No, I could have chosen unemployment, I would have done something else. I chose this. Your team is your major responsibility.’ And that that perspective has served me in my career, but it well, it's also been problematic. So I had people quitting because for me, I was in the gym at 5am. And I took two-hour breaks during the afternoon and then I was in the gym till 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night. I expected you to do the same thing. So, I didn't understand the worldview and the needs and the aspirations and the limitations and the people on my team. So people started quitting. I started doing horribly within my position. And then Mitchell brought in another consultant, and he gave me some advice. I didn't take it as advice at the time, but it changed everything. And it changed rapidly. This guy's name is Jamie, I don’t remember his surname. But he sat me down and he said, ‘So I understand you have a little bit of trouble’. Yeah, no shit, man. Really perceptive. ‘So, just tell me, who do you work for?’ So, ‘I work for Mitchell’. He said, ‘No, no, but who do you really work for?’ I thought, ‘Oh. Oh, right. Yeah. The general manager of the gym. Brian, I work for Brian’. So nope, who do you really work for? I thought it must be the fitness manager, Will. So, ‘I work for Will’. He’s like, ‘But who do you work for?’ And now I'm starting to get really irritated. I'm like, yeah, this guy's a bit thick. I don't know how many ways I can explain, I've just pretty much named everybody. Who do you reckon I work for? He said, ‘No, you just named everyone who should be working for you?’ Lisa: Yeah, you got that one down. Robert: ‘Have a single person you work for? Who are your trainers?’  He said, ‘Here, let me help you out. Imagine for a second, all of your trainers got together, and they pooled their life savings. They scraped up every bit of resource that they could to open up a gym. Problem is, they're not very experienced. And if they don't get help, they're going to lose everything. They're going to go out of business. They go out and they hire you as a consultant. In that scenario, who do you think you'd work for?’ I was like, ‘Oh, I'm the one that's thick. I've worked for them’. Because in every interaction you have, it made such a dip because it sounds counterintuitive. But he said, ‘In every meeting and every interaction, whether it's a one-on-one meeting, team meeting, every time you approach someone on the floor to try to help them, or you think you're going to correct them, come from that perspective and deliver it through that lens’. And things started to change rapidly. That was one of two things that changed. The second thing that changed is Mitchell believed, because he would listen to self-help tapes, it inspired him. So he would have me listen to self-help tapes. And he believed that oration in front of a group public speaking was culturally galvanising. And in a massive team meeting where we had three facilities at the time, where he brought in a couple of hundred people for a quarterly meeting. He had me stand up and speak. Oh, man. I know you've done a lot of podcasting and you do a lot of public speaking in front of audiences. You know that experience where you get up to speak but your brain sits right back down? Lisa: Yeah. And you're like, as Craig was saying the other day, ‘It doesn't matter how many times you do it, you're still absolutely pecking yourself.’ Because you want to do a really good job and you go, ‘This is the day I'm going to screw it up. I'm going to screw it up, even though I've done it 10,000 times. And I’ve done a brilliant job. Then it’s coming off.’ Robert: If you’re not nervous in front of an audience, you've got no business being there. That is very disrespectful. I agree with that. I mean, this is coming from, in my opinion, one of the greatest speakers in the world. And I'm not just saying that because Craig's my mate, and he gives me oatmeal every time I come out to Melbourne. I'm saying that because he's just phenomenal and authentic in front of a room. But I had that experience and I'm standing up brainless in front of the room. And as I start to realize that I am choking. I'm getting so nervous. Now this is back in the 1990s, and I was wearing this boat neck muscle shirt that said Gold's Gym, and these pair of workout pants that were called T-Michaels, they were tapered at the ankles, but they ballooned out. You know the ones I’m talking about? And I had a lot of change in my pocket. And all you hear in the room, as my knees were shaking, you can hear the change rattling, which wasn't doing anything for my self-confidence. And just instantly I was like, ‘Right, you're either going to epically fail at your job right here. Or you are going to verbatim with intensity, recite word for word, like everything you remember from Dennis Waitley’s Psychology of Winning track for positive self-determination’. Sorry, Dennis, I did plagiarize a bit. And I said it with passion. Not because I'm passionate, because I knew if I didn't say it with fierce intensity, nothing but a squeak will come out of my mouth, Lisa: And the jingle in the pocket Robert: And the jingle in the pocket. And at the end of that, I got a standing ovation. And that’s not what moved me. Lisa: No? Robert: What moved me was weeks ago, I was clueless in my job. I got this advice from Jamie on, ‘You work for them. They are your responsibility. They are entrusted to you. Don’t treat people like they work for you.’ Now I had this, this situation happened. And my trainers avoided me a month ago when I got promoted. But now they were knocking on my office door, ‘Hey, can I talk to you? Would you help me’? And it just clicked. The key to pulling yourself out of pain and suffering and despair is to focus on lifting up others. Lisa: Being of service. Robert: That was it. I thought I could be good at something. And what I'm good at is not only, it's terrifying before you engage in it, but it's euphoric after, and it can help other people. I can generate value by developing and working through others. Lisa: This is like gold for management and team leaders and people that are in charge of teams and people is, and I see this around me and some of the corporations where get to work and consultants stuff is this was very much this top-down mentality. ‘I'm the boss. You’re doing what I say because I'm the boss’. And that doesn't work. It might work with 19-year-olds who have no idea in the world. Robert: It reeks of inexperience. You think you're the boss because you've had certain qualities, and that's why you got promoted — do what I say. You are a detriment to the company — and I know how many people are fucked off and calling bullshit. I don't care. I mean, not to toot my own horn. Like anything I've ever accomplished, I've learned I have accomplished through hiring the right people and having a team that's better than me. But I’ve been in so many management positions, from the very bottom to the very top of multiple organizations I've consulted all over the world, you are only as good as your team. And to borrow from the late great Peter Drucker, ‘The purpose of a business is to create and keep a customer. And your most valuable customer’s your internal customer, the team that you hire. Because unless you are speaking to every customer, unless you are engaging with every customer complaint, unless you are engaging in every act of customer service on your own —' which means your business is small, which is fine. But if it's a lot, you're not ‘— you could scale that, it is always your team. And your job is to create and keep your internal customer by serving them with, at the very least, with the same tenacity, sincerity and intention that you are serving your external customer. If you don't do that, you're going to be shit as a leader. And honestly, I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about that. Because I have heard so many opinions from people who are absolute — they've got a ton of bravado, they beat their chest, but they are ineffective. And it's extraordinary what you can accomplish when you know how to be, number one, hire the right person. Number two set expectations clearly — clearly, specifically. Number three, understand what motivates each individual, as an individual person and as a team, and then develop that team's capacity individually and collectively to channel that capability towards the achievement of a common vision, of a common monthly target. Period. Lisa: Wow. So that's just, that’s one whole lot going on in one. Robert: That is leadership in a nutshell. Lisa: Yeah. And this is the tough stuff because it's easier said than done. I mean, I'm trying to scale our businesses and grow teams and stuff. And number one, hiring the right people is a very big minefield. And number two, I've started to realize in my world that there's not enough for me to go around. I can't be in 10 places and 10 seats at once. You're getting overwhelmed. You're trying to help the universe and you're one person, so you're trying to replicate yourself in the team that you have, and provide the structure. And then you also need those people where you're weak, like I'm weak at certain aspects. I'm weak at technology, I'm hopeless at systems. I know my weaknesses. I know my strengths, so. Robert: I resemble that comment. Lisa: Yeah, In trying to get those people where you, that are better than you. Not as good, but better than you. And never to be intimidated because someone is brilliant at something. They're the ones you want on your team, because they are going to help with your deficits. And we've all got deficits and blind spots and things that we're not good over we don't love doing. And then trying to develop those team members so that you're providing them and treating them respectfully, looking after them, educating them. And that takes a lot of time too, and it's really hard as a smallish business that's trying to scale to go from there wearing a thousand hats. And a lot of people out there listening will be in similar boats as ours, like, wearing a hundred hats and trying to do multitasking, getting completely overwhelmed, not quite sure how to scale to that next level, where you've got a great team doing a whole lot of cool stuff. And then realizing the impact that you can have as tenfold or a hundredfold. Robert: Absolutely. And I'm not really a good business person, per se, like I've owned a few businesses myself, I've worked within quite a few businesses. And I think what I'm good at, and this goes back to another person that I worked for shortly after Gold's Gym. So Gold's Gym was sold, that's a whole story you don't need to get into. This is an interesting guy. I was doing consulting, I was just going out and doing public speaking, I had independent clients. And I crossed paths with an individual named David Barton. This is someone you should get on your podcast. Talk about an interesting individual. And David Barton had the one of the most unique and sexy edgy brands in New York City. And that's when you had a lot of competition with other highly unique, sexy, edgy brands. And he was the first person — he coined the phrase, ‘Look better naked,’ it was actually him. That's the guy. It was on the cover of New York Magazine. I mean, he was constantly, like his club in Vogue, at Harper's Bazaar, he ended up hiring me as his head of training. And his company at that time in the 1990s, which is quite the opposite of the mentality, the highest position you could ever achieve in his company was trainer. It was all about the training, and it made a difference culturally, and it made a difference in terms of like we were probably producing more revenue per club and personal training at that point than almost anyone else in the world, with the exception of maybe Harpers in Melbourne. So this is how far me and Craig go back actually. Lisa: Wow. It’s that right. Robert: Yeah, because we had found out about each other just a few years after that. Lisa: Some of that Craig Harper. Robert: Craig Harper, yeah, when he had his gyms. So we were introduced by a guy named Richard Boyd, a mutual friend who's like, you got to meet this guy, because he's doing what you were doing. And it all started when I went into David Barton gym, and I just thought, this is a different world. This is another level. Am I in over my head? So again, it was that doubt, it was that uncertainty. Lisa: The imposter syndrome.  Robert: But I did. Yeah, and I think we all have, and I think the only people who don't have imposter syndrome are imposters. Because if you're fraudulent, you wouldn't engage in the level of self-honesty, and humility and conscientiousness, to go ‘Am I fraudulent, is there something that I’m missing’? Only a con artist never considers whether or not they're fraudulent, it's ‘Does that keep you stuck? Or does that help you to get better and more authentic, more sincere?’ So I had the presence of mind to ask David a very important question. And I said, ‘David, if there was like two things, or three things that I can do in this company, exceedingly well, what two or three things would best serve the member, the company as a whole, and of course, my career here with you?’ And David leaned back and he did one of these dozens of things he gave me, literally. And he sat there for — it must have been like five seconds — it felt like an eternity and I'm thinking, ‘Oh my god, that that was the stupidest question I could possibly ask. He probably thinks I should have this whole, like sorted out. After all, he hired me, or am I going to get sacked today?’ And then I was like, ‘I can't get sacked. My house just got ransacked by the FBI’. That was a totally different story. He comes, he leans forward. And he says, ‘Two things. Two things you got to do. Number one,’ and a paraphrase, but it was something very similar to, ‘I want you to be a connoisseur of talent, like a sommelier is a connoisseur of wine. I want you to hire interesting, and great trainers. That's number one.’ And he just sat there again. And I'm like, I think it was a power move. Looking back, it was a power move. Lisa: Using the silence. Robert: What’s number two, David? And he said, ‘Train the shit out of them. And when you're done with that, here's number three, train them again. Number four, train them again. Number five, train them again.’ And that stuck with me. And a year later, I wound up leaving David Barton, and I come back to work with him periodically over the course of many years, and I personally loved the experience every time. We’re still good friends today. And I went to NASM, and I became a presenter, senior presenter, and eventually I became the director of professional development for the National Academy of Sports Medicine. And I brought that with me. And trust me, there was times when I was quite a weirdo, because I thought quite differently than then a team of educators and clinicians. But it helped, and it served me well, and served me throughout my life. So I am shit at so many aspects of business. But I am really good, and probably because I'm very committed to recruiting people with the same level of insight, precision, intuition and sophistication that a sommelier would approach a bottle of wine. Lisa: Oh, I need to talk to you about my business at some point. I need the right people because I keep getting the wrong one. Robert: That, I'm very confident I can help. When it comes to recruiting and selection and hiring and training and development, that is my world. Lisa: That’s your jam. Robert: And because anything I've ever accomplished, it's totally through other people. It's because I hired people that were a lot smarter than me. It's funny because that's another piece of advice I got way back in my Gold Gym days, where one of the consultants was in the room and said, ‘You'll be successful to the degree that you're able and willing to hire people that are more intelligent than you’. And Mitchell quipped, ‘That shouldn’t be too hard for you, Bob’. Okay, yeah. Thanks, Mitchell. Yeah. Lisa: Oh, yeah, nice, friend. You need those ones, don’t you? Hard case ones. Hey, Bobby, this has been a really interesting and I feel like we probably need a part two because we haven't even touched on everything because you've had an incredible career. And I just look at you and how you how far you've come and there must have been so much that you haven't even talked about, have been all the really deep stuff that you went through as a child — Robert: No, I've told you everything. There's nothing else. Lisa: But how the hell did you actually turn your mindset around and how did you fix yourself and get yourself to the point you know where you are today, but I think we've run out of time for today. So, where can people engage with what you do and where can people find you and all of that sort of good stuff? Robert: Okay, well, I just started my own podcast. It's decent. Lisa: Which is awesome because I've been on. Robert: So if you are looking for, like one of the most dynamic, interesting and inspiring podcasts you've ever encountered, go to The You Project by Craig Harper. If you still have time after that, and you're looking for some decent podcast material, go to The Self Help Antidote, that is my podcast. And I'm on Facebook. Social media is not really where I live. It's not where I want to live. It's not where I like to live, but I'm there. I'm on Facebook. I mean the rest of the older generation, yeah, piss off kids. And I'm on Instagram. I'm occasionally on LinkedIn, but not really. I will be on Clubhouse because I got to find the time Lisa: What the hel

You may only know Kellogg’s as the company that makes your favorite cereal. But there is so much more to the company than just delicious treats. Robert Birse is the Head of Global B2B Ecommerce at Kellogg’s, and he has been leading the charge to position Kellogg’s as one of the leaders in creating scalable B2B Ecommerce strategies. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Robert explains all the ways that Kellogg’s is upending traditional Ecommerce strategies in order to help customers find greater success. Using technology like A.I. and machine learning, and by developing a platform that all of their customers and partners can use, Kellogg’s has been pushing the ball forward on bringing small and large businesses into the world of Ecommerce and helping them get the most out of their Ecommerce strategies.  3 Takeaways: A brand like Kellogg’s has the power to up-end the typical Ecommerce strategy. Instead of asking how to get customers to buy more, they ask how they can help their customers sell more. In doing so, their customers and partners become more successful, and it’s a win-win for all parties Change management is important because many of the small businesses Kellogg’s works with have to fundamentally change the way they think about doing business.hey have to rely much more on technology than ever before. But the appetite is there because A.I. and predictive analytics are proving to be critical tools in helping businesses determine what to stock and how to look at consumer behavior B2B Ecommerce is still in its infancy, but there is an appetite for innovation across the board from brands to retailers to distributors. They’re eager to test, iterate and experiment with new technologies in order to create better one-to-one engagement at scale For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Stephanie: Welcome to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, your host from Mission.org. Today I'm very excited, we have Robert Birse on the show, the head of Global B2B & B2B2C E-commerce at Kellogg. Rob, how's it going? Robert: It's going great. Thank you very much, from captivity. Stephanie: Yes, yes. How is life in captivity? Robert: Well, I'm thinking about calling Amnesty International, see if they can get me out of here. Stephanie: Well, we were just talking about what life looks like right now, just us eating lots of Cheese-Its on our bed at home, calling into Zoom calls, or maybe that's just me. Maybe that's not you. Robert: No, I think that's a typical picture across the world right now. Stephanie: Yeah, which is okay. Temporarily, it's okay. So, I saw you have a very long history in E-commerce. I think I saw dating back to even early 2000s, right? Robert: I'm afraid it was in the '90s. Stephanie: Oh nice, okay perfect. Well, I would love to hear a bit about your background and what led you into E-commerce. Robert: Sure. Well, I was working for a catalog distributor, so not a distributor of catalog. We use the catalog as our medium to communicate with our customers who were predominantly engineers in factories across Europe. The business that I was responsible for at the time was a small specialist distributor, and we were struggling a little bit to find our position as E-commerce was starting to take more of a role in the consumer engagement or the customer engagement in our case. So we were on the tube and this was the late '90s, and we took a digital transformation, even though digital still wasn't really a bonafide strategy because it was only emerging. The first task we undertook was to create a digital asset library from all the bromides and things that we'd cumulated to support the catalog production. Robert: So we partnered with a startup in London, a bunch of basically college graduates who were trying to create the first digital content management system. And that was more than 20 years ago. So we did that and we started to work to create a digital presence online, starting with static content and then moving into transactional capabilities. It helped transform that little business into something that had a much greater future. So that was my first introduction to digital and then never looked back since to be honest. Stephanie: Oh, that's great. What kind of transformations has your career seen since the starting point in the '90s to now? And what does your role look like now at Kellogg? Robert: Yeah, I mean, I've used digital disruption and innovation in all the roles I've had since that position in the UK to varying degrees of impact. When I joined Allied, and I moved to Texas, we transformed that business collectively from a couple of hundred million to 600 million in a very short period of time. Just really ensuring that we unified the sales channels with the digital channel. In the early '90s, or early 2000s was very popular to Ring-fence E-com as a separate channel, and I felt that was wrong. So when we moved to the US I tried to ensure that the unification happens, so it was the best one to punch we could possibly give our customers, we're always on capability with the human interaction. I have used that principle throughout my career to build success. Robert: Ultimately all the way to Kelloggs where now, I'm using technology to create value for our customers, changing the paradigm that was always traditional in sales engagement of how do I get my customers to buy more? Now the principle behind our E-commerce strategy from a B2B perspective, is how do we enable our customers to sell more? And then we will be the recipients of the downstream benefit in due course, and that's a big change in the approach. Stephanie: So what did your first, maybe like 90 days look like? When you came to Kellogg's and you saw the lay of the land, what were some of the initial things that you were like, we have to do this, or have to shift this? What did you do? Robert: Well, the train was leaving the station when I joined Kellogg and I decided to embark on a pilot, a B2B pilot, in Brazil of all markets, one of the hardest B2B markets in the world. So it was an interesting challenge to ramp up very quickly. Now, thankfully that we're using Salesforce Commerce Cloud as the technology platform, which I was very familiar with. So that was okay, but getting familiar with our business model in Brazil, which was a direct store delivery model was a different beast for me. And then obviously with Portuguese language challenges, it was an interesting 90 days, but it was certainly a massive. You know the saying, jump in the deep end and [inaudible] and that's where I found myself. Stephanie: Thankfully you're still swimming today, which we all are glad about. So what does your day to day look like now? And how would I think about B2B when it comes to Kellogg's? Because from a consumer perspective, I don't really think about what goes on behind the scenes. I just go to my local whole foods. I find my cereals and my RXbars, and I don't think about how it gets there or how maybe it gets to a smaller Mom-and-pop stops. So how do I think about Kellogg's B2B experience and B2B2C experience? Robert: Well, I hope the consumer will start to see how B2B is impacting the shopper experience, not directly but indirectly. So as part of our mission, we're trying to use technology B2B platforms to create a conduit where we can influence, educate, and inform and enable our retail, especially our independent small retailers. Not a frequency store or space in particular, to be better store owners and to create a better in store experience. As well as use some of the modern engagement tactics, such as social media engagement to bring more food traffic to their store from within their community. Therefore, strengthen their business and providing a jumping off point for them to become more successful in the future. Robert: So the consumer should recognize that when they go to the store, the store has always got the product they're expecting to find in the store, and if that product is displayed in a fashion that's compelling and it's positioned next to other products, they well, that would be the perfect combination. Then B2B commerce, modern B2B commerce is starting to have an impact on the buying experience. So that's what goes on behind the scenes, and that's what our vision is built around. Stephanie: Yeah. That is something I never think about, is this product positioned next to another one to make a better, maybe make me buy more. How do you figure out what products should be next to each other? And how do you work with the store owners to ensure that they abide by those rules? To make sure that, maybe not rules, but it'll also help them sell more as well. So how do you work with the store owners to creating a partnership? Robert: Well, in the past, it was always through traditional sales engagement. The Lucas success has always been a principle behind how we've engaged our retailers in using planograms and driving compliance around these planograms and the science behind them has been well understood, and the discipline has been in place for a long time. However, the cost of serving and maintain that relationship at a cadence that we need to continue has become ever more challenging. So digital is helping to change that paradigm and allowing us to go back to the long tail and really start to help our smaller retailers to really become stronger and more effective in their day to day life. So we see things like AI driving the intelligence around product recommendations for a store type, for instance. Robert: So if you are an independent store owner and you are in a rural environment where you are a 1,000 square feet and two the cash registers, that we would like to be able to cluster you with other retailers just like you, do the analysis and determine what you must stock, what you could stock and what you shouldn't stock. And then ensure that we're talking to the owner operator on a cadence that would allow us to then do more of that and offer and recommend as consumers trends change. So we're always ahead of demand, not buying demand in the long tail. Stephanie: How do you stay ahead of demand? What kind of tools and technologies are you using to ensure that you're able to quickly react to consumer buying behaviors or inventory levels for the store owner? How do you stay ahead of those things? Robert: Well, you're giving me way too much credit to say that we're actually ahead of those things, we're aiming to be ahead of these things. So let's make sure that's completely clear and we're being transparent, there's a lot of work to do here. So what we see is the ability to take all that historic purchasing information, and then combine it with social listening to see what consumers are talking about, then plugging in triggers like weather and other influences on buying patterns and then continue to feed machine learning and AI logic to build a picture that is constantly dynamic and changing so that we can then say to the customer, the retailer, "Hey, this product is starting to decline its popularity so we're recommending you start to reduce the inventory you carry. And by the way, this product is gaining popularity and we're going to drive a marketing campaign in your market to promote it. So now it'll become a hot commodity, please accept this recommendation and capitalize on that demand and it will happen in the coming weeks." That's what we're aiming for. Stephanie: Do you see the partners being ready to accept that and wanting to stock the products that you're recommending? Are they trusting your guidance or has it been an uphill battle when it comes to those recommendations? Robert: Well, first of all, the primary segment we're focused on is that high frequency store, independent retailer, a C-store, a convenience store that kind of customer segment, and they've been incredibly underserved for many years now. So any insight that we've given them so far, and the questions we've asked them about would it just be of interest, they've all unanimously said, this is what we've been asking for years, please help me grow my business. So I think the appetite is definitely there. Stephanie: Yeah, that's amazing. How do you set up platforms and systems for these different businesses? Because I could see each one needing something a little bit different. So how do you scale that model to provide the data to each company in a different way, or each, like you said, store in a different way? Robert: Right. It has to be done without human intervention to start with, we cannot be responsible for building an army to support such endeavor. So at Kellogg we're really focused on a single global platform, one ecosystem of applications that will scale globally across markets and channels and the customer segments within these channels, with a lower cost of ownership as we scale it out. So that's the first guiding principle. The second end is, if a machine can do it, we probably shouldn't do it. So everything is going to be machine driven. And then by rewarding the owner operators to complete their profiles, that allows us to capture information like, is your store rural, suburban, or urban, gives us another great data point to then create more effective costuming. Robert: And then in these clusters, the analytics can be very powerful and the machine can then start to communicate through marketing automation on a cadence that we could never possibly imagine before, and then touch them with relevant content that is absolutely pertinent to their business. So I would make a recommendation to you and your store that you're missing these two products, you should this and if you do stock these, we predict that you will make X number of dollars incrementally every year thereafter. And that's very powerful for comparison. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's great. Are there any pitfalls or learnings when going about this partnership model and helping the retail stores that you saw along the way that you would find maybe other companies or brands will need to do this, where you're like, "Hey, we ran into this problem along the way, or this was a big hiccup that other people could probably avoid if you listen to this podcast." Any advice around that? Robert: Well, I think it's going to be the same answer that everybody gives, and that's really focused on education, change management. You're asking people to change their habits. So in emerging markets like Brazil, for us high growth markets, there's a full service that the reps provide to date. And so the store owners are accustomed to doing a particular style of business with us, we're asking them to change that and be more responsive from a digital perspective. Now corporate, for all the bad and sadness that's come with corporate, it has been the catalyst for changing the perspective of many retailers to how they should interact with their brands. So that's been that the silver lining of corporate is it's elevated the position of why B2B could be a very important tool in their growth strategy going forward. And that's changed the perspective of consumers considerably. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a good silver lining. So I saw that you also created a mobile app to reach some of the smaller retail clients. Can you tell me a bit about what problem you were facing and why you thought mobile was the best way to solve that problem? Robert: Well, that's a really easy one is the business tool of choice for small business owners. The internet and the mobile device and companies like Kellogg's are now developing solutions, online solutions that years ago would have been financially out of reach. Now they have all these tools that they can run their business, and that's why mobile is so important to us. Stephanie: Got it. Do you ever feel like you're encumbered by trying to meet your partner obligations or that the experiences maybe can't be what you want them to be because of certain obligations you have with partners? Robert: No, I feel more enabled to be honest, because it's a difficult market. The times are always challenging. So anything that might add value to a relationship, I think it goes a long way to creating a winning business scenario. So don't feel there's any barriers, maybe some adoption challenges that those would have been there regardless. So I feel that there's such a large opportunity to use Ecommerce to change our engagement model, that there're enough partners that have put their hand up and will put their hand up to say, "Yeah, I would love to be part of that because I can see that could create competitive advantage for me and alone I can't do it but in partnership with you, I feel that you could guide us and help us aspire to our own digital endeavors going forward." Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. How do these retail partners keep track of all their other brands? So I'm thinking, if Kellogg's has their website that you would log into and you would look at the recommendations and get your orders and your inventory and all that kind of stuff. How would a retailer keep track of everything else they have in their store too? Is there like a single source that they can rely on or how do they think about that? Robert: So that's a great question, and it's greatly misunderstood. There is no real lifespan for a single application to serve a single brand in a retail environment. Who in their right mind would manage 50 different applications from different brands? So for two different models, I foresee. So in a mature, disciplined distribution based market, such as North America where most of our distribution wholesale partners have a web presence to date with E-commerce capabilities, we will be looking to integrate into that, to improve the experience in that environment. So think about a store within a store concept, and that would be where I would see brands like Kellogg's and others prospering and allowing the retailer to buy across a broad selection of products available from the distributor, but also to technically punch out to reach my Kellogg experience, where they can see their performance plus with their peer group to get the recommendations that we're offering, being informed about trends and product demand and so forth. Robert: And then if they're inclined to confer upon a recommendation we've given them that product order will go back into the distributor environment to be processed in a normal fashion, thereby allowing them to continue to go about buying other products for the store. Now in markets where distribution isn't as well evolved from a digital perspective, then marketplaces become the answer to ensuring that a retailer can go to a marketplace designed for their customer segment, with brands that represent at least 40% of their shelf. So that there's enough for them to do in one execution to not create administration, but to reduce administration in the procurement of product. Stephanie: I got it, that makes sense. How do you think about working with different platforms? You just mentioned marketplaces and I saw when you go on Kellogg's website, you direct people to go on platforms like Amazon and then also CVS and Target. How do you balance working with bigger stores and retail partners, and then also platforms like Amazon within your Kellogg strategy for E-commerce? Robert: Well, there's a lot of room for improvement on both ends, so in the end you're referring to where the large platforms are in play, there's a ton of up side to improve content, to improved recommendations, to really get deeper integration, that we can take all that learning and insight and present it as a more refined offer list dynamic. Obviously the price part architecture element of ensuring that what we're presenting is something that's scalable and profitable for us, as well is a key factor in these relationships at both ends, of course. I would say that they're not mutually exclusive in the sense that, we can operate in two spectrums here. So in the large platform, but also taking that technology and applying it to enable the long tail to prosper. Robert: Monetizing the long tail is actually, a very worthy prize worth unlocking for every CPG company in the world. And I think that's where the glue on your food is to be honest, we do a great job in most cases with our Walmart's, and our Target's and our Amazon's. We don't do a tremendous job today with a smaller, high-frequency stores as an example. Stephanie: Yeah. That long tail does seem really important. How would you advise other CPG brands to engage with those? Like you said, the long tail? Robert: Do you know, I think partnerships are key. The synergistic product from more than one brand that you could curate into a collective offer, there is a lot of power in that. So strengthen in numbers has always been the case. So I think we could really team up better in the industry to make a more powerful proposition to our retailers, that creates greater value, greater economies of scale, and it's easier to adopt. And I think that's what's missing today because everybody is a little nervous about working together, trade secrets and what if the competition find out. But honestly in my entire career, I've always had a hard time just getting our innovation execution done, nevermind, stealing somebody else's in time. So in reality, it will never happen, but there's an insecurity, that's common to human nature, I guess. Stephanie: Yeah, I see the same thing in startup world where people don't want to share their ideas and you're like, "Trust me, I've got my own stuff to work on, I'm not trying to steal your idea and build a whole nother startup on top of the stuff that I'm working on. Don't worry." Robert: So true. Stephanie: Have you seen any successes when it comes to those partnerships that you would advise others to think about it this way, when it comes to letting people lower down their guards and allowing them to see this could have benefit for everyone, any successful case studies there? Robert: No, nothing is mature as a case study yet. We're still very much in the embryonic stage of developing this strategy. You can see it though in play from time to time when we do joint ventures with other brands targeting the consumer, to be honest. We did last year, we did a very exciting campaign with cheeses and house wine, that was the box wine company. Stephanie: Oh, tell me more about that? Robert: Well, this one is very interesting and very simple, it was a box wine. The box had to be extended to contain cheeses. Cheese and wine, as you know, is a perfect combination. I personally was just eager to get my hands on a box and, yeah, that morning it went live at nine o'clock and we sold everything in about 40 seconds, I believe. So none of us got any, so the power- Stephanie: You're still on the wait list. Robert: It's never coming back, I don't think. Stephanie: Oh, no. Robert: We have to recover from the demand. Yeah, cheeses doesn't need much help [inaudible] as I said, we can't make enough to meet consumer demand. That's a great example of when you can join forces and just make the proposition more compelling. So I see that playing out in the B2B space as well, as I said before, together we're stronger. Stephanie: Yeah. How do you think about what partnerships are advantageous to have? It seems like it'd be hard, and I could see a lot of brands maybe partnering randomly, and you're like, "Ah, that's not really even helpful to the consumer." So how would you think about striking up new partnerships in a way that's mutually beneficial to both brands and is good for a longer term strategy? Robert: Well, it depends what your ambition is, of course. So there'll be different solutions for different approaches. I mean, obviously, we wouldn't partner with a Benjamin Moore Paint brand, there's no correlation. So within the food industry taking snacks as an example, the beverage industry is the perfect partner, beer, wine, alcohol, Cheez-It and Pringles, it's a perfect combination. So the same as for cereal, milk and yogurt, it's a perfect combination. So there's definitely groupings of product where you can see which brands aspire to the same vision, it would be critically important as well. So just because the product has synergy doesn't mean that the strategy is there, you can't force a round peg into a square hole. Robert: So my first checkbox criteria would be, is the digital ambition the same? Do both companies, or do three or four companies aspire to own breakfast across all hospitality in the world? Well, if we do, then we've got a common objective. Now, how do we go about it together is the next step. Stephanie: That's great. It seems like the larger brands too, might have to give a little bit more, or provide a little bit more help to the smaller brands, if they're picking someone like ... If you were partnering with a smaller wine company or something, it seems like you might have to be ready to do maybe the 80% of the heavy lifting, because maybe they don't have the resources or the budget. Is that kind of how you're seeing things play out when you pick partners, that sometimes Kellogg's has to do the heavier lifting to create a partnership? Robert: Yeah. Even with partners with some of the bigger brands we're actually willing to do the heavy lifting. We made a decision with our leadership to own our destiny in this space. So it's from top to bottom, and I do see that small startups in an incubator fashion, we would be a great big brother to get products launched. And we have our own startup business within Kellogg's where we're giving grants to products like Leaf Jerky and so forth, which is a different plant-based product that challenges the status quo of what we felt like Jerky was in the past. So yeah, I could see that there could be a market verticals that we would go after, there might be health club awaited before we joined the Kohler, we were talking about RXbars and examples. Robert: So predominantly through health clubs and so forth, why not probiotic yogurts? Why not non-alcohol based beer? So why not the combination? All plays well to the health industry, so there might be some small companies in there that are pioneering excellent alternatives that we would be, I think, more than delighted to partner with them. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's great. So Kellogg's is over, they've been around for over a 100 years, right? Since 1906, is that correct? Robert: Yeah, it's correct. Stephanie: Okay. Oh, good memory, Stephanie. So with a company that's been around for that long, how do you think about making sure that the company continues to innovate? Like you said, you have a startup within Kellogg's, what do you see within that startup? What kind of products do you see coming out of that? And would you advise a lot of other large companies to also put on their startup hat to compete with these B2C companies that are all popping up everywhere? Robert: Well, change has become the new norm. I mean, taking COVID aside, people want to taste new things, that is my impression, anyway. I think, there's an appetite for new and more challenging flavors and so forth. So in the food industry, I can see that the innovation around our product offers is actually critical for success. But the innovation doesn't stop there though, we have to be more innovative in how we present these products, how we ensure these products create value other than just in flavor, but in health and wellbeing as well. So Kellogg has always been a very health driven business right from its inception, that continues to be an underpinning philosophy of our company. I see a great deal of passion in our business and investment for innovation. It's not just digital, it's all down to food, not innovation kitchens and the chefs we have, they're inspired to really go find new products. Robert: We do a great job of creating an incubator within our business by constantly searching for ideas within our employee base around what we could do with Kellogg products. So I think you look inwards and outwards there's no stone not worth turning over to find out an idea about a new product. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. When you mentioned marketing earlier, it seems like you would have to market to two different audiences. You have to market to your retail partners and then also to the consumers, how do you go about, maybe within your platform where you're selling to retailers, do you market differently than how you do to consumers? Or how do you think about that? Robert: Well, so now you bring up an interesting subject in the sense that direct to consumer, which could in sense be side by side be B2B, does provide you with an awesome channel to test the appeal of new product, and affordable cost if you engineered it appropriately so that you've got something you can stand up and tear it down quite quickly without major investment. So I don't know if you would really want to continually be knocking on the door of your retailers with new products without having some good market data behind it, to say that this will sell. And so testing that product in market that becomes a critical part of the evolution of the go to market strategy. So I see traffic consumer testing being interesting proposition for companies like Kellogg's going forward. Stephanie: Got it. So you test the product with a market first, and then you go to your partners and say, "Hey, a lot of people like this, you should also put this in your store?" Robert: Absolutely, because that's where we get the scale, and then we can then turn on all of our abilities to cross sale and use some of the capabilities we talked to earlier about in the B2B platform, ensuring that our retailers know how to create success with new product. There's another interesting aspect of that too, so if you'd go back to the conversation around the long tail of retail, these companies, these business owners don't have sophisticated inventory management tool. So one of the biggest challenges we're solving for is ensuring that new products, our products we've recommended for that retail when they're placed that they stay. Because we see a lot of occasions where a new product is being placed or our product from the portfolio that they should be adopting, has been taken. Robert: And then a week later has been sold and never replaced because somebody in the evening has just redistributed product on the shelf to complete the look and that position be lost. And so making sure that these products are reordered and reordered again, until they become habitual, their presence is habitual on the shelf is a massive opportunity so it's not about just new product and innovation, it's also about ensuring the stickiness of product they are placing on a shelf. Stephanie: What ways do you engage with your partners to make sure that they, like you say, keep reordering, have you seen any best practices to stay top of mind with these people even if they do excellent and lose a spot in the shelf. They're like, "Oh, hey, this product actually belongs there." How do you go about building those patterns? Robert: Well, there's also technology becoming available from scanning to just constant recognition. So there are solutions coming, they're not particularly affordable today for the segment we've been addressing, which is the high frequency stores segment. So the challenge has been resolved by manpower up until now, and of course, that's not very affordable. It's interesting when you go to markets like India, if you don't show up something else will steal your space. Stephanie: [inaudible 00:32:09]. Robert: I know, so there's a whole bunch of, I must run ... Making sure that you hold onto the shelf space that you've worked so hard to attain. So we're looking at tools like, asking our retailers to take shelfies using the robot cameras and uploading- Stephanie: Shelfie? Tell me more about a shelfie. Robert: So a shelfie is just, the shelf equivalent of your selfie, in the sense that, we're to set challenges for our retailers and say, "Listen, take a shelf of your cereal display." And then we'll match that image to the planet ground that the AI has in its memory, and then give them a score, and that score will then be translated into points, Kellogg points that they can use for purchasing everything from a discount to cleaning services, say for instance, in the future. So one thing happens in this process, is we ask them to do a challenge, before the actually did their pictures there is a pretty good chance they're going to address any gaps on their shelf. So we see it being a little self serving and helping us get a better position in the store, but also then just educating the retail around best practice and reinforcing that practice. So the look of success is getting closer and closer in the package stores within their reach. So that's just one example, I guess. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's a really fun example. Have you seen the rewards program that you have actually really incentivize these retailers to, like you said, take these shelfies and engage with your brand more? Robert: No, again, you gave far too much justice. I talk with authority, but we're still very much in the theory and the testing, the technology is still catching up, but we see rewards and we have a rewards engine built into our platform to date. We haven't really turned it on to its full force yet, but it will be a cornerstone of our strategy. We're looking at gamification rewards and recognition as being a key driver of behavior going forward, and creating the path to best practice. So it will be a constant in our engagement strategy, so at eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night, we'll be connecting with an owner operator of a store through WhatsApp or email or text to say, listen, we have a challenge for you, and this challenge is worth a 1,000 Kellogg points. If you go and take that shelfie or if you can tell us, answer this question about the new product you recently stocked, did it sell out, did customers come back and repurchase? Did you get any feedback in any shape or fashion about the flavor? What did they think, and reward them for that first party data insight. Robert: Now, all of a sudden you've got this incredible ability to harvest information that could be invaluable to your R and D teams. At the same time, you've got the opportunity to influence best practice and take the customer on a journey, the customer being the retail owner operator on a journey to become better at their craft, which is super exciting to us. Stephanie: No, that's really awesome. It seems like there'd be room to build a community among these store owners, to all do the challenges together and to talk about best practices. Have you all explored that? Robert: We're exploring it. We're definitely exploring it. So it came from, when we looked at one of our customer's segments being a K through 12 schools starting here in North America, there's a lot of schools that are rural. They're isolated, they don't have large school communities to support them, and there's so many challenges that they face from allergies and health and nutrition, taking food and making education subject matter. All of these things we're looking into to say, okay, so our community together would be again stronger. So connect schools that are similar together and then connect schools that are not similar and let them use our product as a teaching aid. So we aspire, this is long away from happening. Robert: So please don't take this as something that's been executed today, but we can see that sometime in the future, we'll create a syllabus around corn and our cornflakes and how it changes the flavor of patterns in Japan compared to Idaho, and then to schools when their kids are having their breakfast, they can share the differences in the sweetness and so forth because the [inaudible 00:36:46], the climate is different so that the plant takes on a different flavor. So that's a subject that you could turn into a syllabus and education and bring kids together. Yeah, it is a very exciting proposition for us and different from anything we've ever done before. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. And I did not know that flavors around the world would be different. So you definitely taught me something brand new here. Robert: Yeah. We've done a few things at Kellogg's in the office in Chicago where they've taken five or six or seven different sources of cornflakes and put them all in independent bowls unmarked, and then tasted them and people were convinced that sugar had been applied and so forth. And it actually hadn't, it was just that the different produce, produce different flavors and it was quite an epiphany for many of the folks tasting them. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. So when it comes to your B2B platform, what are some of the best capabilities that you're using today that maybe you weren't using a year or two ago? Robert: Again, cornerstone of what I'm trying to do with the B2B platform is create efficiency, and so to create efficiency, the first thing I'm trying to tackle is preventing any waste of time as it pertains to identifying a product. So we are integrating scan into the mobile device, using the mobile device camera, quickly scan that barcode it will take you straight to the product in our platform. So no need to key in, no need to type in the barcode or any keywords that are associated, just quick scan within less than a second you're on the product detail page, and you got a path to purchase with one click. You've got a path to understand your performance versus your peer group with one click. And you've got a path to understand how to sell more by accessing the tools that give you the toolkits that will help you do that. So that's, that's one aspect. Robert: The second aspect is to create value around ensuring that big data is conferred into some form of exportable logic that says that, hey, you are not creating the optimal product assortment. Companies, businesses, stores, like you sell these products successfully, and you're missing revenue as a result of not taking them. So here's a recommendation for these products. Here's the stocking quantity that we believe you should take. And here's a revenue projection based on MSRP from the class that you belong to that. That to me is transformational in so many ways. Stephanie: So are you using AI behind the scenes to create a lot of these recommendations? And do you think a lot of brands are also doing this or is there a lot of room for them to adopt to this technology? Robert: Yeah. AI is the key to success. So we've talked about AI for several years now, and it has really not delivered what it says in the box as of yet, but I am a 100% confident we're getting closer and closer all the time. Anybody that's been getting with AI knows that a lot of teaching into the logic that supports the output, but we're definitely getting closer to being able to use it at scale. What I see in the next year to 24 months will be the ability to then turn on that dynamic, self-sustaining logic that continues to morph as it reads more data and continue to present very tailored recommendations to all of our retailers worldwide, simultaneously because the computing power, obviously, continues to scale at an exponential rate. So it doesn't do necessarily what it needs to do today, but the path is now clear, and I think it's just around the corner, to be honest. Stephanie: Yeah, no, I completely agree. Are you all training your own models for AI? Are you relying on a platform to help you with that? How would you recommend another brand or a larger or smaller brands to start adopting this technology or start experimenting with it? Robert: Well, there's a lot of data scientists that they're all better actor than I am for sure. Stephanie: Sure? Robert: Yeah, I'm absolutely positive. So we've been looking outward to smaller businesses, as well as some of our larger partners to use their experience. Because clearly they see the opportunity too, so I would continue to just make sure that you're using a blend of traditional partnerships and innovative new businesses that come up with some left-field idea about how to resolve one of the challenges. Constantly looking for new ideas from the marketplace, from the periphery where there's new startups starting and looking for an agent, they might have a great concept that we can use. I often equate it to something you might see in a Paris fashion show where coming in the the runway is a presentation that could be quite outrageous, but some form of it we'll get to the high street that will be very popular with the consumer. So a really wild idea can really translate and be boiled down to something that can be a game changer in reality. So never assume that it has to be something that's already in place, but to be open to suggestion and I try and work on a daily basis to be that way. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that's a really good lesson too, to look at tangental markets and industries that could also help influence not only new products, but also E-commerce strategies and just like keeping tabs on what other people are doing, especially startups who are moving quickly and experimenting quickly. How do you keep tabs on companies like that stay up to date with what other people are trying? Robert: Well in prior lives, working for brands that were less recognized, it was on me to continue to search and find, and encourage my team to continue to look for these innovations. Working for a brand like Kellogg's, there's a lot of people come calling. So I'm obviously in a fortunate position to be exposed to a lot of these ideas on a day by day basis from various entrepreneurs. I feel that Kellogg's could prosper from taking on the idea so that role has changed. So I'm very fortunate in that regard to be exposed to great ideas across the industry and not just from within the food and beverage industry as an example but from sending an upturn to, you name it aerospace, there's a lot of innovation going on. Stephanie: What is definition of success for E-commerce? What kind of metrics do you look at? What do you think is successful? Robert: Yes. Okay, so none of the traditional metrics are really going to be of any interest. So for me, the success has moved upstream. So when I think about what does success look like from a digital perspective in B2B, it's very much around ensuring that the retailer is selling more products more effectively and more efficiently, and putting more money in their pocket. So if I can look back and say that all the retailers that we supply our products are prospering as a result of our E-commerce engagement, because we're delivering not just the fundamentals of E-commerce, which is about auto management and everything else that comes with it. That's just table stakes, whatever else comes with it, where we create the value through AI recommendations, access to toolkits, marketing campaigns, guidance on how to create the perfect store. If that's translating into more dollars at the point of sale, then that's what success looks like to B2B commerce going forward, in my opinion. Stephanie: Yeah. It seems like that partnership and education is really important in B2B, have you guys seen success with doing that? Robert: Well, again, I wish I had something much more tangible to give you in terms of the successful metrics. This is still ground zero, we're still very much in day one of our B2B engagement. I think you will find that modern B2B is still in day one globally across both industries. So there's still a lot of learning, a lot of testing, a lot of refinement to do, but the appetite is there. When I talk to other brands, they feel the same way about how we can harness technology to create value. The retailers I've talked to they are hungry, and so is our distributor and wholesaler partners too, to participate in this new era of one-on-one engagement at a scale that's affordable and on a cadence that has never been achievable before. Just that combination of menu items is really driving the hunger to get to that point quicker. Robert: I wish I had to go quicker, we're definitely trying to get there quicker, but it just takes time to build. And so ask me again in six or 12 months, and I'll be in a far stronger position to give you a better answer. Stephanie: Oh, you've just invited yourself around two. So with things changing so quickly, are there any new or emerging digital channels that you all are focused on or trying out? Robert: Again, comes back to just watching and keeping an eye on how things are changing, an example would be, for instance, say WhatsApp for instance. So WhatsApp starts life as a messaging tool, becomes incredibly popular worldwide, supplanting email, phone, texting everything. Now WhatsApp is developing your online ordering capability that will potentially change the trajectory of B2B commerce. So we're watching it very, very carefully, but there's a caveat, there's so much low hanging fruit in just doing what we already know, we can do better in B2B commerce. The WhatsApp example would be a very shiny object while we still need to continue to look to shop opportunities, we need to temper our enthusiasm to be distracted, it can be a distraction. We know that there's enough revenue potential just executing our primary mission without chasing rabbits down holes. Robert: I don't want to be the anti-innovator, but there's got to be a balance. So I use three words to caution myself, stop, better and clever. Stop doing things that create no value. Identify what you do well, but do it better. And say Friday afternoon is for the clever things. So Friday afternoons are dedicated to it, but don't let it become all consuming and that's how I approach this. Stephanie: That's great. That's a really good lesson, Friday afternoons with a beer maybe then you're even more creative, right? Robert: Why not? Yeah, certainly, my wine consumption during COVID is gone up tremendously. Stephanie: I think everyone else. So are there any B2B commerce trends that you're excited about that are coming down over the next couple, well, maybe even in the next year? Robert: Well, I just think the fact that the chatter around B2B has climbed exponentially in the last three or four months, is exciting. I'm super excited about what machine learning can do for scale in just enabling us to do the value added services that we've aspire to do, but couldn't execute because of the cost. So these two elements that B2B is becoming a cornerstone of business strategy, and it's not seeming to be as a poor cousin of B2C, B2B can be sexy. We're taking all of the goodness from the user experience and applying it, but then with this logic, that's data driven it's hard to turn down when we recommend products to a particular owner operator that I've got a revenue projection associated with them, that's a hard proposition. Plus we're giving them an award for accepting the recommendation. If that recommendation comes and was close to our prediction, then I think conversion could be a 100% going forward. Robert: Now in digital, we usually have 2% conversion and an action was great, a 100% conversion, wow, that's perfect execution. What does that do to the industry? Truly transformational. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. So when it comes to implementing technology and stuff, because I think, like you said, a lot of people and a lot of platforms are focusing on B2B now, it is a new player to look at where B2C was maybe the sexier area before. How would you advise other companies to think about onboarding new tech technologies and tools in a way that sets them up for longterm success? Robert: Well, first of all, think scrappy. You can't innovate with the mindset of perfection. Large companies, I think suffer more than small companies, of course, there's a procedure and there's an ROI calculation, and there's a certain set of expectations. Especially when you're dealing with technology that can't quite deliver on the initial promise, but you have a fairly competent perspective on it, we'll get there. So you have to be a little ashamed of what you take into market, because quite frankly, in my experience, you see the flaws, whereas the target audience does not. They see something different, something value added, they know it's a work in progress, and they can see it resolves a pain point. It removes all of the inadequacies of what you didn't do as a result of getting to market quicker and testing a reaction. So that would be my recommendation. Feel a little ashamed, to be a little ashamed about what you go to market with initially. Stephanie: So is there anything that we didn't cover that you want to cover before we move on to the lightning round? Robert: Oh, no, I didn't know there was going to be a lightning round. Stephanie: Yes. There's a lightening round. Robert: That's a little scary. Stephanie: Yeah, anything high level, E-commerce trends, the industry that you're like, "Man, I really wish Stephanie asked this question and she just didn't." Robert: No, I don't think so. I think we've covered off the fact that, I think the biggest thing that's missing in the industry is that more collaboration. I think collaboration is going to be a game changer in terms of driving success. So that's what I'm seeking to build through networking and working with other brands to try and find some common ground we can explore in. So if anybody is interested, please reach out to me and I'll be happy to partner. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. That's great. All right. So the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I ask a question and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Rob? Robert: No. Okay, I am. Stephanie: All right. You're ready. What's up next in your cereal bowl? Robert: Oh my God. No, Scott's, it should be porridge, but it isn't. I like porridge, I'm a diehard Frosties guy. I don't know, there's not a bad time in a day to consume Frosties, so that's what's always in my cereal bowl. Stephanie: I agree. It's a delicious choice. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Robert: Netflix, I just finished watching Altered Carbon and it was a book that I'd read, three books I'd read many, many years ago. And it was actually a really good rendition of the novel. So I thought it's Sci-fi is very forward looking, it's probably what you'd expect me to watch, but I thought I enjoyed that series. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds great. What's up next on your podcast list or audible? Robert: Yeah, so podcast, during COVID, I mean, I listen to a lot of podcasts, especially at nighttime and I've started to rediscover Vinyl. So I've become a bit of a pseudo audio file or want to be, at least I fought the big stuff, but I'm working my way into. So I started to listen to Vinyl's audio file podcasts, which have been fantastically interesting, but suddenly they're talking about technology I can't afford or justify. My wife keeps a very close eye on me, so sorry- Stephanie: Oh, man, so rude of her. Robert: I know terrible, isn't? But logical, she saves me from myself. Stephanie: That's good. Yeah, that's really fun. Well, if you were to have a guest on a podcast of your own, so if you were to have The Robert's podcast and you want to bring on your first guest, who would you bring and why? Robert: Oh, that's easy. That's easy. I am a big soccer fan from the UK. And one of my idols is Alex Ferguson. I would love him to be my first case on a podcast. He has such great insight into leadership, management, the stories he has. He would be, there's an entire encyclopedia of subjects we could discuss, and he's an idol of mine. Stephanie: That'd be a fun one. I would listen to your podcast. All right. The last hard question. What one thing will have the biggest impact on E-commerce in the next year? Robert: One thing, I think, changing the culture within companies to really embrace innovation, not to necessarily wipe the investment and make a net positive operating gain in the short term but to be more risk orientated. I see a lot of challenges around investment strategies and payback periods and so forth, and it really does slow down our ability to go to market. So if we can get to a point where there's an acceptable investment tolerance, and that will obviously vary by company size and profitability, then I'd like to see more about an entrepreneurial approach to taking that startup fund internally, and going to market with it, improving success or a failure. In Kellogg's we've done a tremendous job recently of celebrating failures. Robert: We've even have an award, for the peace of the award for failure. So it's a transformation that's underway, but we still have to get more comfortable with capital investment that can be used to experiment rather than the business case that supports it longterm, which will come, that will come when we determine what the metrics are or what the levers that work that can be expanded upon and so forth. So that's what I'm looking for. Stephanie: I love it. You are a lightning round expert, so nice job. Well, it's been a blast having you on the show, where can people learn more about you and Kellogg's? Robert: Well, they can see my profile on LinkedIn, obviously, I'm not a big social media user today. So reach out to me through LinkedIn and I'll be happy to engage. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show, Rob, it's been a blast and we will have to bring you back since we have an invitation now for round two, we'll have to bring you back in the future. Robert: That was a mistake, wasn't it? Stephanie: No mistake, we'll have even more fun then. Robert: I look forward to it. Thank you very much for having me on. It's a great pleasure. Stephanie: Thanks.

In our sixth See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Robert Cartwright Jr., a division manager of Bridgestone Retail Operations in the Northeast Region, about all things risk management. Robert is highly skilled and knowledgeable in risk management and is a very well-respected mentor and leader in the space. Additionally, he serves as chair of the Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Council of RIMS. They talk a bit about how he got into the field, and Robert explains to us how risk management intersects with just about everything.These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals.Connect with Robert on LinkedIn and Twitter!Find out more about RIMS - they're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all, 'cause--so look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Robert, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?Robert: I'm doing great, Amy. How are you doing today?Amy: I'm doing quite well. I was hoping that you could tell me a little bit of how you got involved in risk management and what about it appealed to you.Robert: Okay. Wow, so I have to go back a little bit, because risk management was not a field that I had even thought about, because my background is actually HR, and I managed a couple of plants, manufacturing plants, and when I took over one plant--it was in Philadelphia, and they also made me head of plant operations, and the first issue I encountered was an OSHA citation. It was about $160,000, and it kind of threw me into the field of what is this all about and what are we looking at. So I didn't understand the term risk--and this is in the early 90s when this occurred--and I think it was more of a thing of, you know, the exposure or the things that we had to figure out with how we're going to manage that. So one of the things that the owner asked me to do was to look more into what that was all about, and so that was my first exposure to what risk management was. Now, going on another eight years, and then at this point now I'm working for Bridgestone. I was overseeing part of their [work comp?] program, and as I was moving further along with that I got exposed to, from the insurance side and the claims side of things, the exposures and the risks associated with it, and so I wanted to learn more about it, so I looked it up on Yahoo. That was before Google. Yahoo was a big search engine back then, so I'm dating myself, but Yahoo was a search engine, and it talked about risk management organizations, and I wanted to find out more about it. They directed me to Risk and Insurance Management Society, and they had a local chapter in the greater Philadelphia area, and I went to their meetings, and that's when I started to really learn more about all of the elements that involve risk management. It is a vast operation, and a lot of things that are done, especially from the RIMS perspective, is more volunteer-based. So there's a lot of volunteers that were trying to put together risk management programs for their communities and their communities spread across the world. So that was my first exposure to risk management. The other thing I found that was very interesting is that it was so interconnected with business, and a lot of times businesses are siloed. You have operations doing one thing and HR is doing something else, and, you know, finance is doing something else, you know? They're all kind of siloed, where risk management was really trying to be the gatekeeper for all of those and trying to put them all together and say they're all elements of exposure that will harm the company. We need to find ways to do a better job with that. So I think the short answer to that is that I kind of researched and fell into risk management. It wasn't a career that I chose. The career chose me, and so here I am 35, 36 years later, and just really being an advocate for risk management.Amy: That's fantastic. Did you go through any formal training for this or did you really just research this on your own and kind of pull from these different disciplines?Robert: Yeah. So I did get my CRM, my Certified Risk Manager designation. So I went through those five principles of risk management, risk finance, risk factors, risk analysis and things like that. It kind of gave you a basis of what risk management was for, and that really was I think the biggest education that I got, because I didn't know anything about it, and that was really the exposure. So I did that. I got my certification that way and started to bring some of that information back into my company, but at the same time I was getting more and more involved with the risk management organization, the RIMS orgnization, and so with the local chapter I was able to really kind of build a very robust program that was gonna benefit the community that we were serving, and then I found that it was on a global level, so I started to get involved in other committees and other counsels that handle other parts of what risk management is, and I had the opportunity to serve as their global president last year. So it was a crowning achievement to my career thus far.Amy: That is an amazing story, and it's exciting to me to hear how many people really fall in love with a career path or even get exposed to a career path through associations, because I think a lot of folks--because I didn't know about associations, and I think that's true of a lot of people, especially if you're first-generation in the professional workplace or a first-generation college student. You know, you may not realize that these associations are even out there and that they're a wonderful way to explore different career possibilities and network with people, find out what they like about their job, what they would change about their job if they could, and really get exposure to a lot of different disciplines along the way.Robert: Absolutely.Amy: So what's been the biggest surprise to you about risk management that you weren't expecting when you decided to take the leap?Robert: Well, let's see, I think the biggest thing I found was that I think the connectivity of it is a universal language, and I think going to the convention, to the annual conferences, that was a big thing for me, seeing so many people kind of doing the same thing. Then I realized I wasn't on an island by myself. Handling the issues that we were having in my company, sharing some of the best practices, the peer-to-peer connections, and then the networking aspect where the first time you go you don't know a lot of people. The second time you know a few more. They introduce you to some people. And after about three, four years, all of a sudden it's like a family gathering all over again. You're seeing people you hadn't seen before. They're gonna introduce you to more people, and so your network just gets bigger and bigger every year.Amy: That's fantastic. So what do you think the future holds for talent needs in risk management? Do you see this as something that's going to be--that there will be more jobs in this field, or do you see it as something that maybe artificial intelligence will be taking over? You know, are you going to be working with machines and robots in the future, or do you need more people in this space?Robert: Interesting thing about that, and this is one thing I've been championing. I've been talking about the 21st century version of risk management. The 21st century version of risk management is a person who bought insurance to protect any liabilities for the company. That was the basis for risk management, an insurance person and the person who bought the insurance, and the person who set up the policies and [?]. It has since expanded into a multi-dimensional I guess job description, because IT falls under risk management. HR falls under risk management. Finance falls under risk management. Safety falls under risk management. Audit falls under risk management. So all of these disciplines, any business, anything that a business is associated with, has an element of risk, and so the 21st century risk manager is not gonna look at things so much as "How much insurance do we need to have in order to cover our loss?" They have to look at risk management now from the aspect of saying "What are we gonna do to save the company money by putting processes and procedures in place to stop and mitigate the losses that we have?" Or, and here's the challenge for the 21st century risk manager, the unknown unknowns, the things you don't even know that you don't see. Yes, the company is doing great. We've had a three-year positive trend of losses and things that are happening in that regard, but what else is going to happen around the corner that we don't know about? That's what the future of risk management is. So in a visualization of risk management, that is very key, it's very critical. The next generation, we're looking to them to help lead us in that regard. So my push and my passion has been for 21st century risk managers, they're the ones who understand technology, AI, blockchain. All of the things that are out there that are coming on the horizon. You still need people to manage that level of risk, whether you're working with machines or whether you're working with AI, which is being done right now in the insurance field. AI is now writing insurance policies. So there's a lot of things that still need the people side to drive that and to understand and to direct AI to do those things, and I think my exposure this past year having traveled around the world a little bit has shown me that around the world there are a lot of things that are happening in spaces that we haven't even touched here in the United States. There's a need for people to understand how we can fix these problems. So I talk to college students now and I say, "Do you want to be a risk manager? Here is your job. Find the process solutions and problems." You say when you go into a company and say, "We don't really know what's going on." You're new to the organization and you start asking questions. Before you start asking questions about "Why are we doing it this way?" Ask yourself that question and come up with the answer. When you go into the next meeting and you ask that question, "Well, why are we doing it this way?" And they say, "Well, we've been doing it this way for 20 years and it's working, why?" When you come up with an answer or a solution that they didn't see, then you're the risk manager. All of a sudden now you're the problem solver. You're the one who's gonna help them save money, be relevant, and be able to take that company and move forward with it. The other thing I'll say is that the future of risk management is critically tied in with strategic thinking, because we are raising a group of students now who are getting risk management degrees. They didn't have that when I went to college. That just–that doesn’t exist. And so now people are coming out of college with risk management degrees, or they’re taking things that are tied in with that – actuarial, underwriting, or even on the broker side. Those are all things that they need to know in order to help their company go forward. So I tell people go into a company, and it doesn’t matter if–’cause there’s not a lot of risk management jobs that you can get right out of college. There’s not a lot of entry-level jobs that are like that. There's some companies that have risk management positions that they don't know what they call it. They'll put you into a different category, but it's really dealing with risk management. The thing I say to them is understand the mission and vision of your organization. Find out what that is, because that's your basis. That is your starting point to have a conversation with anybody in your company. Once you understand what the mission and vision is--becuase everybody's connected to it. They have to be. That's the basis of the company. So when you look at that, that's your catalyst to move forward. So yeah, 2020--risk management, oh, there's development in the 21st century. So Amy, here's another point to the whole thing. Persons like myself who have been in this industry 35, 40 years, for the next 10 years, there's a statistic that says 400,000 of us are gonna be sun-setting off into other pursuits. Who's filling that gap? So there's a need, a drastic need, for people to fill that gap who, in my opinion, know technology, have grown up on technology, know digital technology, they live, eat, sleep, breathe it. They're the folks that we need to have to understand how to take this to the next level, because there are things that aren't even regulated right now. We're talking about AI. Let's talk about drones. Let's talk about autonomous vehicles. There's no legislation for that. They're still trying to figure it out. So who's gonna figure this out? So there's definitely a need for that.Amy: Perfect. And what you're bringing up is the intersection of private sector initiatives, you know, public sector initiatives. There are community implications for this beyond the companies, beyond the legislators, but, you know, just really in small towns and cities and in terms of education. You know, schools need to be prepared for this. One of the things I love about the insurance industry as a whole is that it intersects every other part of the economy, and risk management is a little bit broader even than insurance in that it intersects all of these things but it also overlays them in a way that maybe some other disciplines don't. So I like the advice about if you're a strategic thinker this is a great place for you.Robert: Exactly. Well, you know, most organizations righ tnow, their focus is on strategic thinking. They're looking at leaders who can put them in a position to be more successful. Anybody can write a policy and can say that we're protected, but what does that really mean, and what did it really mean to the organization? Do you need a $10 million writer? Who knows? But that's the person who needs to examine that and find out what it is that they really need. And what are they doing to prevent the incidents or the issues that are happening? What are they looking at so far as other methods and means of making the company more successful without an expense? So I kind of look at--a friend of mine used the expression, "Loss prevention is profit retention," and a lot of times you don't think about it from that perspective, but that's really what it is after you put the elements in place.Amy: Is brand preservation, reputation, does that fall under the risk management umbrella as well? Robert: Absolutely.Amy: And I'm thinking specifically about some of the companies that we've heard about in the news lately where they have not--they've clearly not had diversity among their decision-makers, and they've made horrible, horrible mistakes in the marketplace--and very hurtful mistakes--in terms of how they've treated their workers, how they've treated their consumers, how they've established their brand. Do you see marketing as being maybe a primary stakeholder or maybe a future primary stakeholder in this work?Robert: I would say absolutely so. And to your point, we've seen a lot of things where even in marketing we're advertising that they've taken some polarizing images under the guise of "Oh, we didn't know it was offensive," but at the same time it bought them publicity. So there's, like, a double-edged sword with that. There's an ethical component I think to everything I think that most people are missing, and the ethical thing is not that it's the right thing to do, it's doing the right thing, and doing the right thing means you have a responsibility to your shareholders and to your public, where a lot of times people will focus on their rights. "We have a right to advertise this." "We have a right to market this." "We have a right to display this." And they don't look at the responsibility as the other side of that. So to answer your question, marketing, yes, that's a very big issue, and there's a risk management process that's tied in with that, because the thing you have to look at is if we market the wrong thing, how does it impact the bottom line of the organization? Nike did something just recently with a person who the NFL did not really want to be involved with. It was something that was controversial, kind of brought people's attention to something, but at the same time there was a backlash behind it too. But I think one of the--when you talk about marketing, one of the commercials for the Super Bowl was the one where "you call it crazy," and it talked about women and how they were "crazy to do that," women wanting to play sports or wanting to run in a marathon or, you know, she wanted to do these things, but she's too emotional or she's--and they're talking about all these things and--hold on, if that's the case, just show them what crazy is. Great advertisement, right? But the reality is that people still don't understand that that level of diversity is what is needed because women are the buying power. I mean, you have women as 60 or 70% of the buying power of this country. You're not going to cater to that? So the funny thing I found just in my travels is that now the hotels I've been staying at--I've noticed this in the last eight, ten, twelve years--are using more and more comforters and duvets and things like that. They didn't have that before. Why? Because there are more women travelers. Women want more comfort, and so they distinctly designed that to say "Well, we're adding more comfort to your stay." Everything is designed around comfort now. I don't mind it. So yeah, I don't think I would have asked for that because, you know, if I have a sheet I'm okay, but a duvet is kind of nice to have, you know? But there are a lot of things that if you don't include the population of which you're serving, you're missing out on a big part of humanity and what risk management is all about. Amy: Absolutely. To your point about hotels, if I go to a hotel and there's not enough counter space for my makeup, I don't stay there again, and the reason I don't is because I know that there were not women involved in the design of those hotel rooms, because no woman would design a bathroom where she didn't have a place to put her makeup. And so it's like, clearly you didn't want me bad enough to invite me back, so.Robert: So if you feel that way and you just happen to share casually with a friend who shares with another friend, now you have people where there's--and business people are not going to a certain chain. There's a reputational risk that they didn't even realize. So then the people who are marketing and saying, "We want to drive more revenue," or things about growth and sustainability, "We want to drive more revenue, and we know that men like to travel and do this." If you're missing that side of demographics, like you said, that becomes this whole silent killer. The next thing you know, boom, [?].Amy: Yeah, you'll spend millions of dollars renovating your property. You better make sure you get all the stakeholders in the room before you cut that check and before it's finished, because then it's too late. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about--you've already alluded to RIMS, but I know you're doing some more work in RIMS about future talent and diversifying talent in risk management, but what are some--so we'll just start there. What are some of the things that RIMS is doing to engage a different kind of workforce maybe than risk management has seen in the past?Robert: Right. So I think one of the things that--timing is always everything, right? And I am the first African-American president of this organization. So we've been in existence for about 67 years, so [?].Amy: Congratulations.Robert: Thank you, thank you. That was a milestone in itself. And I reflect back on a time when they asked me to be on the global board, and the person who called me was a friend of mine, but he was also involved in that whole process of selecting the next person that comes on. And first I thought he was kidding with me. I said "Yeah, whatever. You don't have any diversity on the board, so." And then we're going around and around and I said, "Okay, so is this, like, a backdoor deal?" And he says, "Robert, you can't get into the back door with this organization. You can only get in the front, and it's only by the way of what you do and your merits and leadership and things like that." I was like, "Well, okay, so--how did that even happen?" So as time goes on, and so now as a president, as I was thinking about my presidency and what I wanted to do, my thing was about legacy, and my thing focused on the fact of we need to know where we came from to know where we're going. If we're talking about risk management being relevant, yes, we need to understand our past, but we also need to understand the future and where we're going. Diversity is important. If you don't have diversity, then you're not gonna be relevant. Society is dictating that, they're insisting on it. I saw that in my travels around the world, where they're importing diversity, they're importing the talent, because they want to have what that is. Companies here in the United States are global. The majority of the big companies have a global presence, and if they don't include the type of marketing, like you said, as a woman, that doesn't have space for your cosmetics, then you're losing out on that part of it. So when I think about--what I wanted to expand on as president was diversity and inclusion, that it needed to be something where we get past the conversation of this as it's now something that we talk about. I want to get it to the point where it needs to be a verb. And so we took that, RIMS took that perspective, and we constructed a task force to delve into whether this was something that as an organization we wanted to be involved with, and I'm pleased to say that the board of directors created a new council, a diversity and inclusion advisory council, that was launched this year, and I was asked to be chair of that council. So we've got international presidents. We've got women, men. We've got the LGBTQ corner covered. We have every element covered when we talk about so far as what we want to do as an organization, 'cause we have to walk that talk in my opinion. So as a result of that it becomes more of a thing where we say "What is the next step?" So what RIMS is gonna look at, we're gonna dive into this using the collective firepower of the people on this council, and some of the people on this council are already in that field, from a global level to a local level to an international level. As a matter of fact, my vice chair is from New Zealand, just to kind of give you a perspective that way. But she brings another perspective to that. So what we want to do is we want to take this and say, "Okay, how do we help the next generation understand what this is? How do we help risk managers understand what that is?" As a part of the risk management discipline, D&I, or a diverse group, is a must. It can't be something that we just continue to talk about, but I'm really excited about this. There's just so much. You know, Amy, when I started my presidency, people were reaching out to me, and the first group that reached out was Women of Color, and they asked me to speak to their group, and from there I spoke to the National African-American Insurance Association, and then there was a Latin organization that asked me to speak to them. So there was an influx of people who were coming in, and for the first time RIMS decided that we wanted to have a D&I meeting at our conference in San Antonio last year. It was set up for about 100, 150 people. I'm standing in front 'cause myself and another person were speaking. People were filling in, and they were filling in, and then they were bringing more chairs in, and they filled all the chairs they brought in, and the last count was about 250 people that were crammed into that room over something that we thought might be a good idea, and that I think was a catalyst for us to say "Okay, you know what? We need to take this thing even further." So I'm honored to be able to lead this council going forward, but I just think that there's so much that's already been done that no one knows about. That's the second part. A lot of organizations are out there that are doing things that no one knows about, and I think from the inclusive part we can't just say it's the big organizations who are doing these things. There are other groups that are doing things as well. Let's bring them to the party and have them included as well. We need to hear their voice.Amy: Absolutely. It sounds like, with a response like that, that there was some pent-up demand and that people were excited to have an opportunity to learn more and to participate in this and even to see, you know, the head of the organization be a history maker. That's exciting to me, that other groups said "Oh, wow. You made history. Come talk to us." I think that's phenomenal.Robert: It is. Last year would have been a whirlwind without that, because I wanted to make that as my platform. It became almost double what I would normally have done or what a president would normally have done, and so, you know, everything is about opportunity, right? So right place, right time, right people, and you have to have a passion for it, and I believe in it. I firmly believe in it, because if you don't--I mean, I have found in my experience that if you don't have a different perspective outside of your own or people who look like you, then you're gonna be doing the same thing that you've always done and thinking that you're successful. Patting yourself on the back, "Yeah, we did a great job." Did you really? Who did you compare yourself to? Who did you ask? So, you know, when I bring my significant other into a situation, I say "What do you think about this?" and get her perspective, and "Man, that's something I didn't even see." So I think that's the benefit, yeah.Amy: So you've obviously done a lot of work to help people feel included in your organization. When do you feel included? Robert: I think that's kind of hard to define, because on the surface people can say, "Yeah, we invited you to the meeting. We need you to prepare a report." I think when you become included is when you're part of the decision-making, and when someone says "What do you think?" outside of the normal group or the people who are called on. I've found that for me, when I have a meeting, when I have a lot of folks or a lot of different groups in the room, I try to make sure that every voice is heard. That's not how it happens in real life. What happens in real life is that--and my daughters have already attested to this, 'cause I've asked them, and they're all professionals. They're all in that business world. One's in defense, one's in pharmaceuticals, and the other one's a nurse. And it's the same thing. The great ideas that they got get shot down because it wasn't their idea, but then someone else picks it up and all of a sudden it's their idea. So I think the inclusiveness is when somebody says "What do you think?" And they take your idea and say "Okay, well, why don't you run with it? Why don't you lead this project?" So the duty of RIMS as an organization is that that's exactly what they do, which is exactly why I'm here today, because every time I kept saying "How come we're doing it this way?" They'd say "Well, what would you do differently?" I'd say "Well, we should do that." "Oh, great. Why don't you lead that project?" And so I ended up leading projects and then becoming treasurer and secretary and vice president and president of the local chapter, and then you get onto a committee and "Why don't you do this?" And now you're on the board. "Why don't you do this?" And then you're president. So that's the thing right there. So in my company itself there's still a long way to go. I think in big companies, because there's such a culture that exists and that culture is a thing you need to understand, and that's what I tell a lot of young people. If you're going to walk into an organization, you need to understand their culture. Figure out what their culture is first. Understand the culture. Understand the language you need to speak, and by that I mean that there's certain expressions that opens everyone's ears. There's certain things that happen that everybody says "Hm, okay. That's pretty interesting." And it doesn't mean that you have to assimilate, it doesn't mean that you have to change who you are. It just means you have to understand the language. Now, you have to bring your spin to it, because as a woman you're gonna bring a different perspective. As a minority, you're gonna bring a different perspective. As an LGBTQ person, you're gonna bring a different perspective. Those are needed, and so I think that my drive for D&I now is to highlight the value of all of those different values, but it's a mandatory thing. Right now we're creating positions, but I don't see the action that needs to be behind it enough where it comes a norm where it's like--okay, let me use history as an example. Back in the 30s and 40s, a secretary was a man. It was not a field for women. Now when you talk about a secretary, they don't want to use the word secretary. It's an office manager, but it's mostly women. So we see the trend has changed, and so now people don't even blink twice when you say a secretary or an office manager. "Oh, yeah, of course it was a woman." So that's where we need to be when we talk about a diverse workforce. It needs to be something where we're not trying to put a checkmark and just saying "We checked the box. We have this person. We've hired a black man, a black woman, a gay person, or a lesbian or a trans person, and they're now on our group," but are they inclusive? Are they inclusive? Are they part of the group? And are they accepted for their voice? And I think that's a critical thing. The second part to the inclusion is that it also has to be inclusive of thought. We have five generations in the workplace right now. There's no inclusion of thought 'cause the younger person that comes in, they could have some great ideas, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, Robert. That's great, that's great, and we'll hear from you later." So therefore they have all this energy, you psyche them all up, you told them "Run with this project," they come back and they get slapped down. So after a while you stifle that growth, you stifle that creativity, and I think that the whole generational issue is another problem that we've got. We've got to be able to bridge that gap. So when I talk about diversity and inclusion, I'm thinking about diversity of thought, I'm thinking about inclusion of thought. That's a critical piece as well.Amy: Absolutely. Robert Cartwright Jr., thank you so much for you time today. Thank you for making history and for sharing that with us.Robert: Thank you, Amy. Appreciate it.

Guests: Amanda Hickman: @amandabee | GitHub Amberley Romo: @amberleyjohanna | GitHub | Blog In this episode, Amanda Hickman and Amberley Romo talk about how they paired up to get the safety pin, spool of thread, and the knitting yarn and needles emojis approved by the Unicode Committee so that now they are available for use worldwide. They also talk about how their two path crossed, how you can pitch and get involved in making your own emojis, and detail their quest to get a regular sewing needle approved as well. Resources: Unicode Technical Committee Draft Emoji Candidates The Unicode Consortium Members Sewing-Emoji Repo Proposal for Sewing NEEDLE AND THREAD Emoji This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. Transcript: ROBERT: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 112 of The Frontside Podcast. I'm Robert DeLuca, a software developer here at the Frontside and I'll be your episode host. With me as co-host is Charles Lowell. Hey, Charles. CHARLES: Hello, Robert. Good morning. ROBERT: Good morning. This is an exciting podcast. Today, we're going to be discussing writing a proposal to the Unicode Committee, getting it accepted and rejected. This is basically making emojis which I think is really awesome. We have two guests today who have an amazing story, Amanda Hickman and Amberley Romo. Thank you both for joining us. You two have an amazing story that I would really love to dive into and we're going to do that today. It's about basically creating your own emoji and getting that accepted so everybody can use that and I think that's super, super cool, something that I've always kind of wanted to do as a joke and it seems like that's kind of where your stories began, so you two want to jump in and start telling? I think Amanda has a great beginning to this. AMANDA: Sure. I mean, hi and thanks for having me. I don't know where to begin and really for me, this starts with learning to sew my own clothes which is an incredibly exasperating and frustrating process that involves a lot of ripping stitches back out and starting over and Instagram was a really big part of me finding patterns and finding other people who are sewing their own clothes and learning from the process. I wanted to be able to post stuff on Instagram and it started to drive me absolutely crazy, that there's emojis for wrenches and nuts and hammers and there are no textile emoji. The best I could find was scissors which is great because cutting patterns is a place where I spend a lot of time procrastinating but that was it. I knew a woman, Jennifer 8 Lee or Jenny who had led a campaign to get the dumpling emoji into the Unicode character set. I knew she'd succeeded in that but I didn't really know much more about how that had worked. I started thinking I'm going write a sewing emoji. I can do this. I can lead this campaign. I started researching it and actually reached out to Jenny and I discovered that she has created an entire organization called... What was that called? She's created an entire organization called Emojination, where she supports people who want to develop emoji proposals. CHARLES: Before you actually found the support system, you actually made the decision that you were going to do this and you found it. You know, from my perspective, I kind of see emoji is this thing that is static, it's there, it's something that we use but the idea that I, as an individual, could actually contribute to that. I probably, having come to that fork in the road would have said, "Nah, it's just it is what it is and I can't change it." What was the process in your mind to actually say, "You know what? I'm actually going to see if I can have some effect over this process?" AMANDA: It definitely started with a lot of anger and being just consistently frustrated but I knew that someone else had already done this. It was sort of on my radar that it was actually possible to change the emoji character set. I think that if I didn't know Jenny's story and it turned out I didn't know Jenny story at all but I thought I knew Jenny story but if I didn't know that basic thing that that somebody I knew who was a mere mortal like me had gone to the Emoji Subcommittee of the Unicode Consortium and petition them to add a dumpling emoji, I am sure that I wouldn't bother. But I knew from talking to her that there was basically a process and that there were a format that they want proposal in and it's possible to write them a proposal. I knew that much just because I knew Jenny. I think at that point, when I started thinking about this, the Emoji 9 -- I should be more of an expert on that actually, on emoji releases but a new release of emoji had come out. There were a bunch of things in that release and it got a little bit of traction on Twitter. I knew that the Unicode Consortium had just announced a whole new slate of emoji, so I also was generally aware that there was some kind of process by which emoji were getting released and expanded and updated. ROBERT: That's interesting. Do you know when that started? Because it seems like Apple started to add more emojis around like iOS 7 or something but it was pretty static for a while right? Or am I wrong? AMANDA: I actually am tempted to look this up but the other piece that is not irrelevant here is that at the time, I was working at a news organization called BuzzFeed that you may have heard of -- ROBERT: Maybe, I don't know. It sounds kind of familiar. AMANDA: I do feel like people kind of know who they are. I was surrounded by emoji all the time: in BuzzFeed, in internet native of the highest order and we had to use emoji all the time and I had to figure out how to get emoji into blog post which I didn't really know how to do before that. I can put them on my phone but that was it. I was immersed in emoji already. I knew that there was a project called Emojipedia, that was a whole kind of encyclopedia of emoji. One of my colleagues at BuzzFeed, a woman named Nicole Nguyen had written a really great article about the variation in the dance emoji. If you look at the dance emoji, one of the icons that some devices use is this kind of woman with her skirt flipping out behind her that looks like she's probably dancing a tango and then one of the icons that other character sets use and other devices use is a sort of round, yellow lumping figure with a rose in its mouth that you sort of want to hug but it's definitely not to impress you with its tango skill. She had written this whole article about how funny it was that you might send someone this very cute dumpling man with [inaudible] and what they would see was sexy tango woman. I think there was some discussion, it was around that time also that Apple replaced the gun emoji with a water gun. There was some discussion of the direction that the various emoji's face. One of the things that I learned around that time was that every device manufacturer produces their own character set that's native to their devices and they look very different. That means that there's a really big difference between putting a kind of like frustrated face with a gun pointing at it, which I don't really think of it as very funny but that sort of like, "I'm going to shoot myself" is very different from pointing the gun the other way which is very much like, "I'm shooting someone else," so these distinctions, what it means that the gun emoji can point two different ways when it gets used was also a conversation that was happening. None of that answers your question, though which is when did the kind of rapid expanse of emoji start to happen. ROBERT: I feel like the story is setting in the place there, though because it seems like there's a little bit of tension there that we're all kind of diverging here a little bit and it's sort of driving back towards maybe standardization. AMANDA: There's actually, as far as I know, no real move toward standardization but the Unicode Consortium has this committee that actually has representatives from definitely Apple and Microsoft and Google and I forget who else on the consortium. Jenny 8 Lee is now on the consortium and she's on the Emoji Subcommittee but they actually do get together and debate the merits of adding additional emoji, whether they're going to be representative. One of the criteria is longevity and I tend to think of this as the pager problem. There is indeed a pager emoji and I think that the Unicode Consortium wants to avoid approving a pager emoji because that was definitely a short-lived device. CHARLES: Right. I'm surprised that it actually made it. Emoji must be older than most people realize. AMANDA: My understanding is that very early Japanese computers had lots emoji. There's a lot of different Japanese holidays that are represented in emoji, a lot of Japanese food as well are represented in emoji, so if you look through the foods, there's a handful of things that haven't added recently but a lot of the original emoji definitely covered Japanese cuisine very well. ROBERT: I definitely remember when I got my first iPhone that could install iPhone OS 2, you would install an app from the App Store that then would allow you to go toggle on the emoji keyboard but you had to install an app to do it and that's kind of where the revolution started, for me at least. I remember everybody starting to sending these things around. AMANDA: But if you look at Emojipedia, which has a nice kind of rundown of historical versions of the Unicodes, back in 1999, they added what I think of as the interrobang, which is the exclamation/question mark together and a couple of different Syriac crosses. Over the years, the committee has added a whole series of wording icons and flags that all make sense but then, it is around, I would say 2014, 2015 that you start to get the zipper mouth and rolling your eyes and nerd face and all of the things that are used in conversation now -- the unicorn face. ROBERT: My regular emojis. AMANDA: Exactly. CHARLES: It certainly seems like the push to put more textile emoji ought to clear the hurdle for longevity, seeing there's kind of like, what? Several millennia of history there? And just kind of how tightly woven -- pun intended -- those things are into the human experience, right? AMANDA: Definitely. Although technically, there's still no weaving emojis. CHARLES: There's no loom? AMANDA: There's no loom and I think that a loom would be pretty hard to represent in a little 8-bit graphic but -- CHARLES: What are the constraints around? Because ultimately, we've already kind of touched on that the emoji themselves, their abstract representations and there are a couple of examples like the dancing one where the representation can vary quite widely. How do they put constraints around the representation versus the abstract concept? AMANDA: You don't have to provide a graphic but it definitely kind of smooths the path if you do and it has to be something that's representable in that little bitty square that you get. It has to be something representable in a letter-size square. If it's not something that you can clearly see at that size, it's not going to be approved. If it's not something you can clearly illustrate at that size in a way that's clearly distinct from any other emoji and also that's clearly distinct from anything else of that image could be, it's not going to be approved. Being able to actually represented in that little bitty size and I don't know... One of sort of sad fact of having ultimately worked with Emojination on the approval process is that we were assigned an illustrator and she did some illustrations for us and I never had to look at what the constraints were for the illustration because it wasn't my problem. ROBERT: Sometimes, that's really nice. AMANDA: Yes, it's very nice. I ended up doing a lot of research. What made me really sad and I don't want to jump too far ahead but one of things that made me really sad is we proposed the slate and the one thing that didn't get approved was the sewing needle and it also didn't get rejected, so it's in the sort of strange nether space. That's kind of stuck in purgatory right now. I did all this research and learned that the oldest known sewing needle is a Neanderthal needle so it predates Homo sapiens and it's 50,000 years old. CHARLES: Yeah. Not having a sewing needle just seem absurd. AMANDA: Yeah. We have been sewing with needles since before we were actually human being. ROBERT: That's a strong case. AMANDA: Yes, that's what I thought. If I sort go back to my narrative arc, I wanted to do a sewing needle and started researching it a little bit -- CHARLES: Sorry to keep you interrupting but that's literally the one that started this whole journey. AMANDA: Yes, I wanted a sewing needle and I really wanted a sewing needle. I did a little research and then I reach out to Jenny and to ask her if she had any advice. She said, "You should join my Slack," and I was like, "Oh, okay. That's the kind of advice." She and I talked about it and she said that she thought that it made more sense to propose a kind of bundle of textile emoji and I decided to do that. She and I talked it through and I think the original was probably something closer to knitting than yarn but we said knitting, a safety pin, thread and needle were the ones that kind of made the most sense. I set about writing these four proposals and one of the things that they asked for was frequently requested. One other thing that I will say about the proposal format is that they have this outline structure that is grammatically very wonky. They ask you to assert the images distinctiveness and they also ask you to demonstrate that it is frequently requested. I found a couple of really interesting resources. One, Emojipedia which is this sort of encyclopedia of emoji images and history maintains a list of the top emoji requests. I actually don't know how they generate that list or who's requesting that and where but I think it's things that they get emailed about and things people request in other contexts and sewing and knitting, I've done on that list and I started compiling it in 2016. ROBERT: To be a part of the proposal process, to show that it is requested, without that resource, you just start scouring Facebook and Twitter and history and shouting to people like, "I really want this emoji. Why it didn't exist?" That seems pretty hard. AMANDA: Actually our proposals all have Twitter screen shots of people grousing about the absence of knitting emoji and yarn emoji and sewing emoji. I know that Emojipedia, they do a bunch of research so they go out and look at based what people are grousing about on Twitter. They look at places where people are publicly saying like, "It's crazy that there's no X emoji," and that's part of their process for deciding what kinds of emojis people are asking for. Their research was one resource but we took screenshots of people saying that they needed a safety pin emoji and that was part of making the case. One of the things that I found as I was doing that research was that, I guess at this point it was almost two years ago, when the character set that included the dumpling emoji came out, there was a bunch of grousing from people saying, "Why is there not a yarn emoji?" There was a writing campaign that I think Lion Brand had adopted. Lion Brand yarn had put in this tweet saying like, "Everyone should complain. We needed a yarn emoji," but it doesn't matter how much you yell on Twitter. If you don't actually write a proposal, you're not going to get anywhere. I had been told that the Emoji Subcommittee, they're really disinclined to accept proposals that had a corporate sponsor, so they weren't going to create a yarn emoji because Lion Brand yarns wanted them to create a yarn emoji. ROBERT: Right, so it was like counter-peer proposal. AMANDA: Right. But as I was digging around the other thing I found was this woman in... I actually don't know if you're in Dallas or Austin but I found Amberley, who also put a post on Twitter and had started a petition, asking people to sign her petition for a yarn emoji proposal or a knitting emoji. I don't remember if it was a yarn emoji or a knitting emoji but I found her petition and reached out to her to ask if she was interested in co-authoring the proposal with me because she had clearly done the work. She actually had figured out how the system worked at that point. I think she knew who she was petitioning, at least. I reached out to Amberley and we worked together to refine our proposal and figure out what exactly we wanted to request. I think there were a bunch of things that were on the original list like knitting needles, yarn and needles. I think crocheting would have been on the original list. We were sort of trying to figure out what was the right set of requests that actually made sense. ROBERT: So then, this is where Amberley stories comes in and it is interesting too because she has entirely different angle for this. Maybe not entirely different but different than outright. This kind of ties back to the word software podcast mostly. It kind of ties back to the software aspect, right? AMBERLEY: Yeah. I think, really they're kind of separate stories on parallel tracks. My motivation was also two-fold like Amanda's was, where I started knitting in 2013 and I had a really good group of nerd friends with a little yarn shop up in DC, like a stitch and ditch group -- ROBERT: I love it. AMBERLEY: It was a constant sort of like, where's the insert emoji here, like where's the yarn emoji? Where's the knitting emoji? And we would sort of sarcastically use the spaghetti emoji because it was the most visually similar but that was something that was in the back of my mind but it teaches you a lot about yourself too because I was like, "Oh, this is like fiber art, not really an emoji. It's kind of technical, like on a tech space," and I didn't really connect that it was relevant or that I might have any power to change it. It just didn't occur to me at the time. ROBERT: Interesting. I feel like a lot of people are in that similar situation or maybe not situation, even though you can make change on this. AMBERLEY: Right, so my brain didn't even make it like, "Why isn't this a thing? let me look at how to make the thing." When that happened for me, Amanda mentioned using emoji and everything in the BuzzFeed space. I love how you explained BuzzFeed a while ago, it's my favorite description of BuzzFeed I ever heard. Something similar that happened for me was I was a software developer and in 2016, the Yarn package manager was released and that kind of turned something on in my head. That was like I'm seeing all these software engineers now be like, "Where's the yarn emoji?" and I'm like, "Welcome to the club." ROBERT: "Do you want to join our Slack? We can complain together." AMBERLEY: Right. It has been like a pretty decent amount of time, I'm semi-seriously ranting and complaining to my coworkers who were primarily male software engineers. I remember I went to [inaudible] in the Frost Bank Tower after work and was just like, "I'm going to figure out how this happens," and I spent a couple hours at the coffee shop. I found the Unicode site and I found their proposal process and their structure for the proposal and everything and I just started doing the research and drafting up a proposal specifically for yarn. Maybe it was a bit naive of me but to me it was like, "Okay, here's the process. I follow the process. Cool." I mean, you have to make a case and it has to be compelling and has to be well-written and it has to be supported and all that and that to me it was like, "Okay, there's a process. At the same time, I did read about the dumpling emoji but I didn't connect it to Emojination and they had started the Kickstarter. We should talk about this later but I think the sort of idea the issue of representation on the committee and who gets to define language is really interesting but I saw that they had done the Kickstarter and there was a campaign aspect to it, so I ended up just building up this simple site so that if anyone Google, they would find yarn emoji. It's still up at YarnEmoji.com and that was how Amanda found me. I got this random email, I sort of like had this burst of energy and I did all the research and I wrote the draft, sort of piecemeal, filling out the different sections of the way they have it outlined on the Unicode site and then I feel like a month or two went by and I had kind of not looked at it for a bit and then, I get this random email from this website that I almost forgot about. It was like, "Hey, I'm working on this series of proposals. If you're working on knitting or yarn or whatever, maybe we could work together," and I was like, "Well, that's sweet." Then she opened up this whole world to me. There's this whole Emojination organization, sort of 100% devoted to democratizing the process of language formation through creating emojis and so then, I got really into that. My primary motivator was yarn. CHARLES: So what's the status of the yarn spool, those emoji right now? AMBERLEY: The yarn, the spool of thread and the safety pin, they're all approved emoji for the 2018 released. Amanda and I are actually at the end. Amanda, a couple of months ago when I saw someone used the spool thread emoji for a Twitter thread -- you know how people will be like all caps thread and have a thread of tweets -- I saw someone do that just out of the blue. I was like, "Oh, my God. Is it out?" and the thing about these individual vendors, it sort of gets released piecemeal, so at the time Twitter have I think released their versions of this series of new emoji but others hadn't. CHARLES: How does that work? Because you think the Twitter would be kind of device depending on what browser you're using, like if you're on a Windows or a Mac or a Linux Box, right? ROBERT: -- Emoji set, right? I know Facebook does this too. AMBERLEY: I'm painfully aware that Facebook does it because I can't use the crossed finger emoji on Facebook because it actually gives me nightmares. ROBERT: I have to go look at this now. AMBERLEY: Because it's so creepy-looking. CHARLES: Okay. Also like Slack, for example is another. It's like a software-provided emoji set. AMANDA: Right. AMBERLEY: I'm not totally sure that Slack actually adheres to the standard Unicode set. I think it's kind of its own thing but I might be wrong about that. AMANDA: Sorry, Slack definitely supports the full Unicode set. They also have a bunch of emoji that they've added that aren't part of the set. AMBERLEY: Slack emojis? AMANDA: Yes. CHARLES: Yeah and then every Slack also has its kind of local Slack emoji. AMBERLEY: Right. CHARLES: But how does that work with --? ROBERT: Okay, this crossed-finger Facebook emoji is... yes, I agree with you, Amberley. AMBERLEY: Thank you. I had yet to find someone who disagrees with me about that. AMANDA: I have never seen it before and I'm now like, "What is going on?" CHARLES: Yeah, so how does it work if a vendor like Twitter is using a different emoji set? How does that work with cut and paste, like if I want to copy the content of one tweet into something else? Are they using an image there? AMANDA: They're using an image. I think it's doesn't happen as much anymore but for a long time, I would often get texts from people and the text message would have that little box with a little code point in it and you were like -- AMBERLEY: More like an alien thing? AMANDA: Yeah. Definitely, if you don't have the emoji character set that includes the glyph that you're looking at, you're going to get that little box that has a description of the code point and I think what's happening is that Twitter is using JavaScript or generally programming. There were air quotes but you can't see. Twitter is using their software to sub in their emoji glyph whenever someone enters that code point. Even if you don't have the most up to date Unicode on your computer, you can still see those in Twitter. If I copy and paste it into a text editor on my computer, what I'm going to see is my little box that says '01F9F5' in it but if I get it into Twitter, it shows up. I can see them on Twitter but I can't see them anywhere else. AMBERLEY: Damn, you really have the code point memorized? AMANDA: No, I -- CHARLES: Oh, man. I was really hoping -- AMBERLEY: Oh, man. ROBERT: You live and breathe it. AMANDA: No, I'm not that compulsive. AMBERLEY: We definitely have our emojis on our Twitter bios, though. AMANDA: Absolutely. ROBERT: If you see Amanda's bio, it's pretty great. AMANDA: They started showing up on Twitter and I think that somebody in Emojination probably told me they were out and that was when I first started using them. Amberley might have actually seen it. It sounds like you just saw it in the wild, which is kind of amazing. AMBERLEY: I saw it in the wild with this tweet thread and yeah, it's just [inaudible]. I was like, "Amanda, is it out?" CHARLES: Yeah, I feel like I saw that same usage too, although I obviously did not connect any dots. AMANDA: This last week, October 2nd -- I'm also looking things up. I'm just going to come to the fact that I am on a computer looking things up so I can fact check myself -- after they actually released their emoji glyph set, so by now any updated iOS device should have the full 2018 emoji, which in addition to a kind of amazing chunky yarn and safety pin, there's also a bunch of stuff. There's a broom and a laundry basket. There's a bunch of really basic, kind of household stuff that certainly belongs in the character set alongside wrenches and hammers. AMBERLEY: I think one of the big ones too for this year was the hijab? AMANDA: No, the hijab actually came out with a dumpling. Hijab has been available -- AMBERLEY: It's been up, okay. ROBERT: So did it come with iOS 12 or 12.1? I don't know for sure. I just know -- AMANDA: I'm looking at it and it's 12.1. I really feel that I should be ashamed that I have used the internet and search for this. AMBERLEY: I would say, I have no idea what their release numbers are. AMANDA: [inaudible] as it appeared for the first time in iOS for 2018 with today's release of the iOS 12.1, Beta 2 for developers. ROBERT: That is amazing. Do you get some kind of satisfaction -- like you have to, right? -- from people using the emoji and it's starting to make its way out there? AMANDA: So much. Oh, my God, yeah. AMBERLEY: I didn't really expect it, like saying that random tweet using this spool of thread for a tweet thread. I just thought and I just got so psyched. For me, I'm a knitter. I have knitter friends and it started with yarn and then really, Amanda and through Amanda, Jenny really sort of broadened my idea of what it all really meant. To think someone using it in the wild for a totally different application than I had ever thought of was like, "That's legit." AMANDA: I definitely have a sewing emoji search in my tweet deck and sometimes, when I'm feeling I need a little self-validation, I'll go look over there and find people who are saying things like, "Why is there no sewing emoji?" and I'll just reply with all the sewing emoji, like it is part of my work in this life to make sure that not only do they exist but people know about them. ROBERT: That is awesome. I would do the same thing, though to be honest. You'll be proud of that. AMANDA: Totally. ROBERT: Were there any hitches in the proposal process? I know we're kind of alluded to it but the thing that you started off one thing, Amanda didn't make it. Right? AMANDA: I know. ROBERT: So how did that process happen from you two meet each other and then going through the actual committee and the review process and then being accepted. What would that mean? AMANDA: The process is actually incredibly opaque. We wrote this whole proposal, a bunch of people edited it, which is one of the other nice things about collaborating with Emojination. There was a bunch of people who are just really excited about emoji and the kind of language making that Amberley was talking about. There's a whole bunch of people who just jumped in and gave us copy edits and feedback, which was super helpful and then, there was a deadline and we submitted it to the committee and it actually shows up in the Unicode register which is also a very official kind of document register. I was a little excited about that too but then they have their meeting. They first have a meeting and there's like a rough pass and the Emoji Subcommittee makes formal recommendations to the Unicode Consortium and then the consortium votes to accept or reject the Emoji Subcommittee's recommendations. It's a very long process but unless you're going and checking the document file and meeting minutes from the Unicode Consortium meetings, you'll never going to know that it happen. AMBERLEY: -- You know someone connected through there because one of the things in our first pass, it wasn't that it was rejected. It was that we needed to modify something. We do have art for knitting needles with yarn because at one point, I think we weren't totally sure that a ball of yarn would be visually distinct enough in this emoji size to look like yarn and so, we had put it with sort of knit piece on knitting needles. AMANDA: Oh, that's right. There was a tease of a little bit of knitted fabric. AMBERLEY: Right and I think that, probably through Jenny or the people actually in the room, the feedback I remember is that there is a crocheter in the room who was like, "Yeah, why isn't there a yarn emoji but knitting needle?" so there was a little bit of like that was how I think we ended up from knitting needles with a fiber piece to ball of yarn, maybe. AMANDA: I think that sounds right. I'm actually sure of that. It's just all coincide with my recollection. There were some things that they had questions about and that happened really fast because I feel like we had a couple of days and they have stuck to our guns and said, "No, we're only interested in knitted bit of fabric." Also, we worked with an illustrator and went back and forth with her because the initial piece that she had illustrated, I feel like the knitting needles were crossing in a way. That was not how knitting works and so, there was a little bit of back and forth around that as well. But then once they decided that the they like the thread, yarn and safety pin, we're going to move to the next stage. I actually had to go back and look at the minutes to find out that the two reasons that they didn't move the sewing needle on to the next stage is when they thought it was adequately represented by the thread, which I wholeheartedly disagree with and they thought it wasn't visually distinctive. That's so much harder because a sewing needle, which is really just a very fine piece of metal with an eye at the end, you get down to a really small size and it is maybe a little hard to know what you're looking at. But I think there's such a big difference between the static object which is the spool or the thread which represents a lot of things and is important and the needle, which is the active tool that you use to do the making, to do the mending, to do the cobbling. CHARLES: Yeah. I'm surprised that it almost isn't reversed when certainly in my mind, which I think is more culturally important in terms of the number of places which it appears, it's definitely the needle as being kind of... Yeah. AMANDA: Yeah and I think that the thread and yarn, they're important and I think that the decision to have a ball of yarn rather than a bit of knitting makes sense because there's a lot of things that you can use a ball of yarn that aren't just knitting and they think that -- AMBERLEY: And it's the first step too that doesn't exclude anyone in the fiber art community. AMANDA: But there's so many things like in sutures and closing wounds, you're not using a little spool of cotton thread for that or polyester thread and stuff like embroidery and beadwork, you might be using thread or fiber of some sort that started on a spool but you might not. Embroidery floss was not sold in a spool and there's all these places where we use needles and all kinds of different size and you don't always use thread. Sometimes, you're using yarn. Sometimes, you're using leather cord. Sometimes, you're using new bits of, I would say Yucca. You're using plant fibers to do baskets and in all of these different practices, that process of hooking it through the eye and sewing it is how it's actually made. It still sort of mystifies me why they haven't accepted it but they also didn't reject it, which is really interesting. I don't know how many other emoji are sort of sitting in this weird nether space because sometimes they just reject them outright. I think there was a proposal for a coin that they just said no. ROBERT: They were a like, "A coin?" That would be [inaudible]. AMANDA: Oh, God. ROBERT: They have to add one for every -- AMANDA: [inaudible]. CHARLES: Literally, the pager of 2017. AMANDA: Exactly. CHARLES: So what recourse is now available to you all and to us, by extension, to get the sewing needle? AMANDA: I'm actually working on a revised proposal and I've been trying to figure out what are all the arguments that I'm missing for why sewing and the needle are not adequately represented by the thread and yarn. A bunch of things that a friend of my named, Mari who's half-Japanese, half-American but lives in Guatemala and does all this kind of arts in textile work, pointed out that there's a whole holiday in Japan devoted to bringing your broken needles and thanking them for their service. I thought that was really cool. I've been trying to formulate what are all of the arguments for the necessity of both a needle and a spool. If anybody has interesting ways to phrase that, I would love for arguments. CHARLES: Yeah but it's hard to imagine the arguments is just anything being more compelling than the arguments the you just laid out that you named about seven context: shoemaking, medicine, different fibers where the needle operates completely and totally independent of the thread. It's looming so large in kind of our collective conscious like holidays, being dedicated to them, except I think the Cro-Magnon pager, which is made out of stone, I believe, the being the artifact that pre-dates... AMANDA: There's the idiom landscape as well. Things like finding a needle in a haystack, that has a very specific meaning -- ROBERT: And for puns. I've been resisting saying a pun this whole time. AMANDA: Oh, share your pun with us. AMBERLEY: Yeah, you have to say it. ROBERT: Well, you could say that trying to get this through the committee is like threading a needle. Butchered but -- AMANDA: There's a biblical quote about getting into heaven -- a camel through the eye of a needle. I forget actually how it... CHARLES: To thread a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. AMANDA: Exactly and there's this sort of do-re-mi, saw, a needle pulling thread. There are all these places where it's about the needle and somebody had -- CHARLES: It's primarily ancient. AMANDA: I know. CHARLES: It is the prime actor. Maybe, this is a good segue into kind of talking about the makeup of the committee and the decision making process and these kind of what seem like very clear arguments might not be received as such. AMANDA: I certainly don't want to say anything bad about anybody on the committee. CHARLES: No, no, I don't think that there's anything bad. I think that being receptive to things which are familiar to us versus with things that aren't is a very natural human thing and it can be interesting to see that at work and at play. AMANDA: The Unicode Consortium is also evaluating all of these requests for whole language glyphs sets. Lots of languages and lots of character sets that are kind of obvious, like there has to be a sort of like character set like there has to be an Arabic character set but there are a lot of languages that have been left out of that because they're very small minority languages or they are historical languages, where the actual writing is no longer written the same way but there's historical reasons to be able to represent those characters. One of the reasons why the Emoji Subcommittee cares about what gets into the formal character set is that everybody has to accommodate it and there's already been, I think some grousing. People start to moan and groan about how there's too many emoji, then it's too hard to find things. CHARLES: And there's no take backs. AMANDA: There's no take backs. You can't undo it. The committee is made up of representatives from a lot of tech companies primarily, although there's a couple of other kind of odd additional folks on there. I do try to find the committee list and I can find it right now. AMBERLEY: I have it from Emojination. I don't know if it's up to date but Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, Adobe, Apple, Google, Facebook, Shopify and Netflix. The other voting members -- ROBERT: Shopify? AMBERLEY: Yeah, right? The others being the German software company, SAP and the Chinese telecom company, Huawei and the Government of Oman. AMANDA: Yeah, the Government of Oman is a fascinating one. I don't think they're the ones that are biting us on this. Especially for those tech companies, every time the emoji character set adds 10 or 12 emoji, they don't have to accommodate it on their devices. They have to put illustrators on it, they have to deal with everyone saying that the crossed fingers emoji in Facebook looks like I-don't-even-know-what. AMBERLEY: Hey, Amanda. AMANDA: It's all your fault. There's a whole process and there's non-trivial work associated with every single new emoji, so wanting to put the brakes on a little bit and be intentional about where and when they apply that work, it doesn't seem crazy to me. I just want them to approve the thing that I want. AMBERLEY: I like the way that Emojination captures it. I looked at their website earlier and actually, they take it down but their goal quote "Emojination wants to make emoji approval an inclusive representative process." There has to be a process. There's overhead involved but looking at the makeup of the decision makers are not a trivial question. CHARLES: Right. This is a great example like [inaudible] metaphor but these little artifacts, these emojis are literally being woven to the fabric of a global culture and certainly, everybody uses them and they become part of the collective subconscious. It does seem like very important to be democratic in some way. It sounds like there is a process but making sure that everyone has a stake. AMBERLEY: Yeah. ROBERT: What was the reason that they gave for not accepting the needle and thread? Was it like a soft no? You said it's like just hanging out, not really rejected but not accepted. We're going to drop a link in the show notes for the proposal and your GitHub and everything. I'm looking at the PDF that was put together and it seems like it was all a package deal like we talked about. How do they just draw or they just take like a lawyer would, just like draw or cross it out like, "Well, no but we'll take the other ones." AMANDA: Yes, basically. What they did is they need to discuss and I don't know how long they've been meeting but they need to discuss all of the proposals that have been supplied by a particular deadline and -- ROBERT: That sounds painful. AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, it's -- ROBERT: Just imagine the power of thinking about emojis. AMANDA: One of the things that they rejected, I think because there's the smiling poo face. Somebody wanted a frowning poo face and they rejected that. There's a bunch of things that actually do get rejected. I don't know if they've been really care about a smiling poo face versus a frowning poo face. ROBERT: What about an angry one? AMANDA: We got all the feelings of poo. ROBERT: We got important work to do here. AMANDA: But they go through when they're trying to figure out. I think to some degree, you want to get them when they're not tired but I think the status that it's listed right now is committee pushback, so they've set it aside until we have some concerns. We're not going to reject it outright but we're not really sure why this isn't adequately represented. Then their most recent meeting, they just kind of passed on reconsidering it, which is fine because I think I was traveling and my proposal is not done. I really want to make sure that I have consolidated every imaginable argument in one place so -- ROBERT: And make it strong as possible. AMANDA: Yeah. If people want to help the other thing that would be amazing is any and all idioms that you can think of, especially ones that are not in English or European languages, idioms in Central European languages, idioms in Asian languages that refer to needles, either translations of the kind of classic, 'finding a needle in a haystack,' but also any idioms that are kind of unusual and specific to a culture outside of what I have experience with would be amazing for making the case, so this is an international need. ROBERT: Do they need any specific or actionable feedback or do they just say, "We're going to push back on this. We're just not quite sure?" AMANDA: The two things that we're in the minutes -- there are minutes and they publish the minutes to Unicode.org -- were it was not visually distinct, which is not totally crazy. We actually worked with an illustrator to get a different image. The first image was almost at 90 degrees. It was kind of straight up and down and it is a little hard to see and the second is -- ROBERT: Especially, because it's thin. AMANDA: The second image is actually a kind of stylized needle because it's fairly a little fatter and the eye is bigger but it's much more distinctively a needle. I'm hoping that that will also convince them but you have to be able to tell at a very small size that it's a needle. The other thing that they said was that sewing was already represented by the thread, that we didn't need thread and needle but it was literally one line in the minutes that referenced that and then it sort of like, "Did you have somebody in the room or not?" and so, if there is somebody on the committee who is willing to tell you really what their concerns were, then you have some sense of what they're looking for and why they're pushing back. When you can very much see in the earliest emoji character sets that I have a hammer and I have a wrench and I use them but there's these very conventionally male tools. We have all of the kind of office supplies but all of homemaking and housekeeping and textile production, none of them were there until very, very recently. I think it does reflect the gender of the people who've been making these tools, that sewing and knitting weren't important enough as human practices to be included in this glyph set. AMBERLEY: I guess, that's non-trivial to mention because that wasn't an argument that I made in my original yarn draft and Amanda and Jenny sort of pushing to open it up to this whole slate of craft emoji. I didn't realize until they brought that up. I took a stroll through pretty much the whole slate of emoji and you can count on almost one hand the number that represented the creative endeavors or sort of more traditionally known as creative things like camera or painting palette and stuff like that. It was extremely limited. AMANDA: I think they have stuff like that. I think there's a few different variations on the camera and then there's painting palette and that's it. AMBERLEY: Oh, there's the theater mask. AMANDA: Oh, that's right. There is the theater, the happy and sad -- AMBERLEY: And I don't know it exactly and I haven't read the minutes like Amanda has but I think and I hope that that was a particularly compelling piece of that argument. AMANDA: I think they definitely heard it. AMBERLEY: Yeah. CHARLES: Opening it up then, what else is coming in the way of craft? It sounds like this is historical but these pieces are being filled in not only with the work that you all are doing but by other emoji which you're appearing. AMANDA: Yes. CHARLES: And are you in contact with other people who are kind of associated with maybe craft and textiles and other kind of what you're labeling historically creative spaces? AMANDA: I don't think there are anymore with a possible exception. Someone's working on a vinyl record proposal which I think is great. CHARLES: Yeah, that's awesome. ROBERT: Antiquated, though. AMANDA: Maybe not, I don't know. AMBERLEY: Take a stroll through the Emojination Slack and people discussed that. AMANDA: Yeah. If you click at Emojination.org, the whole Airtable database is on there. There's not a lot of other creative ones. A friend of mine got really bent out of shape about the lack of alliums and wrote a whole slate proposal for leeks and scallions and garlic and onions. ROBERT: Oh, there is a garlic one, right? AMANDA: No. I mean, there is -- AMBERLEY: Actually, I'm looking at the Unicode page for current emoji candidates. They first get listed as... I forget the exact order. They become draft candidates and then provisional candidates or vice versa but I don't see any pending further creative ones but garlic and onion are on there. AMANDA: Yes. ROBERT: That makes my Italian a little happy. AMANDA: I think there's some prosthesis, the mechanical leg and the mechanical arm, a guide dog -- AMBERLEY: Ear with hearing aid, service dog. AMANDA: Yeah, there's a good chunk of interesting things that have been left out. I guess they've been approved by the subcommittee but are still waiting on final approval by the Unicode Consortium. ROBERT: Okay. What are the next steps that we can do to help push the thread and needle proposal through it. You mentioned a couple things like coming up with idioms that are in different languages and whatnot but how can we contact you and push this effort and help? AMANDA: That's such a good question. I don't even know. I mean, I am Amanda@velociraptor.info and you're totally welcome to email me if you want to help with this and I will -- ROBERT: That's a great domain, by the way. AMANDA: Unfortunately, there's no information about velociraptors anywhere on that site. ROBERT: That's the way it should be. AMANDA: But also, if you're excited about working on emoji proposals, Emojination is an incredibly great resource and folks there, including me actually will help you identify things that are on other people's wish lists that you could work on if you just want to work on something and we'll help you refine your proposal if you know what you want and we'll help you figure out whether it's worth putting the time in or not and how to make it compelling. You can definitely check out Emojination.org. I think there's a path to get on to the Slack from there. AMBERLEY: Oh, yeah. The Slack and the Airtable. AMANDA: Yeah. ROBERT: It sounds like there's a whole community that was born out of this, where everybody is trying to help each other and collaborate and get their shared ideas across. AMANDA: Definitely and there's a woman, Melissa Thermidor who is fantastic, who actually is a social media coordinator. It's her actual title but she works for the National Health Service in the UK and was tasked with getting a whole series of health-related emoji passed. There's a bunch of things that she's -- AMBERLEY: Is she's the one doing blood. AMANDA: She's doing blood. AMBERLEY: That's a good one. AMANDA: Because there's a lot of really important health reasons why you need to be able to talk about blood and getting blood and blood borne illnesses and -- AMBERLEY: That one was listed on the emoji candidate page or blood donation medicine administration. AMANDA: Yeah. ROBERT: That's really interesting, so she works for the government, right? and that was part of her job to do that? AMANDA: Yes. ROBERT: That's awesome, actually. I love that. AMANDA: Yeah, I think the drop of blood, the bandage and the stethoscope are the three that are in the current iteration, which is interesting because the existing medical emoji were the pill and that gruesome syringe with a little drops of fluid flying off of it, which do not do a lot to encourage people to go to the doctor. ROBERT: No, not at all. AMANDA: So a few more, we're welcoming medical emoji. ROBERT: You have a GitHub. Is that where you're still doing for the follow up and the prep work for the sewing emoji? AMANDA: Yeah, that's probably the best place. I do have a Google Docs somewhere but that's probably a better place to connect even than my ridiculous Velociraptor email. The GitHub -- ROBERT: But it's still awesome. AMANDA: It is awesome. I won't lie. I'm very proud of it. I am AmandaBee -- like the Bumble Bee -- on GitHub and the sewing emoji, the original proposals are there and I will make sure that there is information about how to plug into the revised needle proposal there as well. You guys are a tech podcast, so if people want to just submit suggestions as issues on that repository, that's awesome. We'll totally take suggestions that way. ROBERT: That would be pretty rad. Well, I appreciate you two being on the podcast. I love hearing your stories and how it ended up converging in parallel tracks but it end up achieving the same goal. Still unfinished, right? Let's see if we can help push this over the finish line and get it done because I would really like to see a needle. I could definitely use that in many of my conversations already now, making all kinds of puns. Thank you, Amanda for coming on and sharing your story. AMANDA: Thanks for having me. ROBERT: And thank you, Amberley for also coming on and sharing your story. This was super awesome. AMBERLEY: Yeah and thank you for connecting us to finally have a voice conversation. AMANDA: I know. It's great to actually talk to you, Amberley. CHARLES: Oh, wow, this is the first time that you actually talked in audio? AMANDA & AMBERLEY: Yeah. ROBERT: We're making things happen here. The next thing we have to do is get this proposal through and accepted. AMANDA: Yes. CHARLES: You've converted two new faithful sewing and needle partisans here and I'm in. AMANDA: Awesome. ROBERT: I know you've already gotten, what? Three through accepted? AMANDA: Yeah. ROBERT: We talked about that, it's got to be really awesome. I think I want to try and jump in and get that same satisfaction because a lot of people use emojis. AMANDA: Exactly. CHARLES: It definitely makes me think like you look at every single emoji and there's definitely a story. Especially for the ones that have been added more recently, there's a lot of work that goes into every single pixel. That represents a lot of human time, which I'm sure you all know, so thank you. AMANDA: Thanks for having us on. AMBERLEY: Yeah, thank you guys. ROBERT: Cool. That is the podcast. We are Frontside. We build UI that you can stick your future on. I really love this podcast because it wasn't necessarily technical but had a lot of interesting conversation about how to work with a proposal and probably make a bigger impact than any of us with software, just because the sheer reach that emojis have are insane and the fact that you can influence this process is new to me and really cool, so I hope a lot of other people learn from that too. If you have any feedback that you would like to give us on the podcast, we're always open to receive feedback. We have our doors and ears open, so if you like to send an email at Contact@Frontside.io or shoot us a tweet or DM us at @TheFrontside on Twitter. We'd love to hear it. Thank you, Mandy for producing the podcast. She always does an amazing job with it. You can follow her on Twitter at @TheRubyRep. Thanks and have a good one.

In this episode, Harry Kaplanian of EBSCO joins the show to talk about the FOLIO project: a community collaboration to develop an open source Library Services Platform (LSP) designed for innovation. He discusses the why behind the the decision made to embark on this project, the benefits it brings to the market, and what makes it different from current offerings and other open source projects. Harry also shares where he sees FOLIO going in the future, challenging and unexpected outcomes of making the choice to go open source, and advice for other businesses that are considering embarking on a similar journey today. Do you have opinions on this show? Want to hear about a specific topic in the future? Reach out to us at contact@frontside.io or on Twitter at @thefrontside. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. TRANSCRIPT CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast Episode 102. My name is Charles Lowell. I'm a founder and developer here at The Frontside and I'm going to be today's host. So today, we're going to be talking about the business of open source with Harry Kaplanian. Harry's someone that we've had the pleasure of working with over the past year and collaborating with on a very unique project, which we are going to get into later. With me is Robert DeLuca. Hey, Robert. ROBERT: Hello. CHARLES: And before we start out today, we just wanted to take care of some quick news. Just so you know, we released BigTest React. This is actually something that grew out of the work that we've been doing with Harry. It's a set of React helpers to acceptance test your React applications so that you can make sure that you know that your application is actually working on actual browsers in actual life. So, that's exciting. You can go check it out at BigTestJS.io. And with that said, let's get on with the project. So first if all, welcome, Harry. HARRY: Thank you. CHARLES: I teased this in the intro, but we'll go ahead and say it outright. The project that we've been working on with you and with EBSCO is a project called FOLIO. And it's one of the more unique projects we've ever had the pleasure of working on. So, maybe you could just give us a brief overview of what exactly FOLIO is and how it came to be. HARRY: Sure. So, FOLIO I think can best be described as an open source platform for services. Our focus has always been the library market and so, currently this platform exists in the library space. That said, there's nothing about this platform that is library-specific. It can actually be used anywhere, anytime, for anything. The platform itself, all communication occurs basically via HTTP. It's microservice-based. It's language-agnostic. And it is really the core of what we're building. However of course, a platform on its own is not very useful. And at least for right now, libraries are overall expecting to get to a point in terms of features, functionality, apps, and services that are being built. So FOLIO can actually take over the enterprise-wide day-to-day operations of what it takes to actually run a library. CHARLES: And these are libraries like university libraries, the Library of Congress, the library at Alexandria. I mean really, when you think of library, like library [3:00 inaudible]. HARRY: Yes. However, we decided to focus on a particular market, at least initially or I guess a subset of the library market. And so, that subset we've actually chosen to focus on is the academic library market. And so, really mainly colleges and universities all around the world. That said, there is no reason why others can't use this software. And it is all open source. So, if any changes are ever needed, modifications or additional applications are needed to support those additional markets, that can certainly happen at any time. CHARLES: Historically, it's a very complex problem, right? There is a lot that goes on at these libraries. But historically, the software that's driving it has not been open source. HARRY: That is correct. So, it's sort of an interesting history. And I guess you're leading into what I think was maybe your second question [Chuckles] which was: What are the circumstances or the thinking that lead to the creation of a project such as this? And really, libraries have been pretty much operating the same way, to be honest, for probably about the last 40 years. And I'm sure we either all know or have heard, most libraries are facing shrinking budgets. They're really challenged in terms of space and storage requirements. And just in general, users have changed dramatically in the last 40 years, the last 20 years, maybe even the last 10 years. Most people don't really ever expect to walk into a library and actually conduct research anymore. They expect that to happen elsewhere. And so, in many ways, they're really facing what amounts to Google and others, because that's where people expect to go. The vendors that typically created the systems and software that supported these libraries, the day-to-day operations over the years, many of them have consolidated. And there are just actually very few options left. These are really old, monolithic systems. They were built initially with the best intent. And for the first couple of years, many features and functionalities were added. But over time, these systems grew to be so large. There really was never any one person anymore that fully understood it. They find themselves in situations where if they add a little feature here or modify something there, it breaks something somewhere else within the system. And so really, they've gotten to a point where libraries have generated lists of features and functionality that they need that are frankly years long. And the vendors just can't deliver any of it. They just don't have the ability anymore. The systems are too old. In addition, really they're sort of building these walled gardens where they really try to take over all the day-to-day operations of the library but are actually starting to try and expand out in other areas of the university as well. And as they do this, they really tend to lock the system down. They're not really open to integration with other systems or other vendors. And they really see it as they are the one company you should go to that can completely manage and operate everything that goes on in your library. And when we talk about innovation in these systems, really they've been operating the same way, as I mentioned earlier, for the last 40 years. Really, the only major, major innovations is there's maybe one company now that's offering these services on the cloud. One size fits all. And the real issue there is, all of these libraries we talked to, all of them see themselves as being unique in some certain and specific way or sometimes multiple ways. All of them believe they're bringing something special to the world in terms of knowledge, research, understanding and learning. And they tend to cater or specialize often to the institution they're a part of. And so for example, if a library belongs to a medical school, of course their collections are tailored that way. A lot of their workflows and operations tailor to students that conduct research in that field. And oftentimes, even to a hospital that may be associated as well. And this will oftentimes be very different from what might exist for example in an engineering library. And so, for most of them, they look around at what's available to them. Not only has nothing changed, not only has there been no innovation, but on top of it, they're forced to choose essentially a single system. And that's not really getting them what they want or where they want to be. So I, as well as some others, spent quite a bit of time looking around at the market and trying to assess and understand all of this. And one of the things we felt was, as we look at all of this, really we're living in a world, these libraries are living in a world of closed systems, lack of transparency, lack of change, lack of innovation. How do we change that? How do we spark that innovation? And it seemed like what we really need is some sort of an ecosystem, a sustainable ecosystem or really, openness and transparency. And it seems like the only way to get that really is open source. And in fact, we actually conducted a survey and out of that survey, 100% of the libraries we spoke to really believe in open source. And when you think about it… ROBERT: Whoa. HARRY: Open source really in many ways aligns itself really nicely with the mission of the library, right? The library is there to not only promote learning but to make sure information and knowledge that normally you may not have access to is accessible to everyone. They're really leveling the playing field. And that really is a really nice analogy for what open source is doing in the marketplace as well. And so, this seemed like really, and at least, an initial ideal path to head down. And so, we did. CHARLES: Yeah. And so, you did. And I'm curious to explore more about that decisions. Because – now this is a little bit of a dated quote – but Steve Balmer, when he was the head of Microsoft, called open source communistic and un-American, then how do you reconcile that? Because obviously you represent a business that ultimately needs to be profitable and is engaging in this in order to make a profit. And so, where does the balance lie and how do you reconcile that? And obviously you all perceive this as a strong business move. And so, yeah, how do you balance those two concerns? HARRY: I think from our perspective, we looked at it as if a single vendor or maybe a group of two or three vendors end up locking up the entire market with systems that operate the entire library that are not open and they're not willing to integrate with other systems and services that exist out there, in essence that's an attack on what is the basis of our business as a company. We provide services and we provide content that libraries use and ingest and make available to their users. And essentially, it looks like they're trying to lock us out. And how does that really help in terms of creating an open and fair marketplace where people get to make choice? It doesn't. And so, what can we do to disrupt that? And building a system that allows everyone to play at least puts us on a level playing field where if an organization or a library chooses to adopt it, we're now back in a very competitive situation where really, the vendor or the organization or the individual that provides the services that best fit that library's needs wins. And that's what we really want to happen. And so, that's in essence how we win. We believe we offer better services than most others in the industry, if not everyone else in the industry. We think there's a sizable percentage of the market that truly believes that. And we just need to make sure that the mechanisms or the systems are in place that allow us to compete in that manner. And in the end, if what we end up with is a platform that allows 3, 5, 10, or 20 companies to actually compete in a reasonable manner fairly, really it's the customer in the end that wins. It's these libraries and it's the users and everyone else conducting research. ROBERT: So, I'm still kind of reeling from 100% of libraries said that they would like to have an open source platform. How many did you survey? HARRY: So to be truthful, it wasn't a large number. ROBERT: That's still insane to me. [Laughs] HARRY: Right. We focused on, however, surveying different segments of I guess really representation within the library. So, the people that do the work, the middle managers, and then really, the folks at the director level that are really responsible for running and organizing a library. ROBERT: The ones that will experience that pain of being locked in, right? HARRY: Right, right. And trying to get decision-makers at many different levels. And we tried to also cover both very small libraries to very large, enormous libraries as well. And all of them saw a benefit. One of the pieces where things sort of maybe went in the other direction as far as the statistics are concerned, if you ask them though “How many are willing to adopt open source?” the numbers aren't quite the same. In fact, they're rather dramatic. And so, at that point it's roughly about 33% said they'd be willing to adopt. CHARLES: So, why is that? HARRY: So, we asked. And interesting question. And what most of them came back and stated was, “Well, we love the idea of open source. We fully support it. We're willing to do what we can to help it and make sure this happens. However, we ourselves don't believe we've got the staffing, the resourcing, or the knowledge to host this ourselves.” And so, this leads to another really interesting thought or idea as far as open source is concerned, is so this really implies that there really needs to be sort of an ecosystem of organizations that are providing these types of services. And to be honest, the faster we can make that happen, the better off the market is. Libraries are now getting to choose vendors that they get to get their services from, which is rather interesting. Because for the first time, not only do they get to choose the vendor but if they're not happy with the vendor, they should be able to switch vendors but keep the software and the data the same. Today, in the library market, if a library chooses to switch vendors, that means essentially they're completely starting over in their library. They completely have to migrate to a fully new system which means enormous amounts of training, enormous amounts of data transfer, and all the pain that goes along with it. I had a librarian tell me once, “The next time we migrate to a fully new system, I either want to die or retire.” I just want [14:30 inaudible]. ROBERT: Man, that sounds painful. HARRY: That's how painful it was. CHARLES: Yeah, wow. Because the complexity intrinsic to these systems, it does, it boggles the mind sometimes. Just even the little slices of the ecosystem in which we're operating, there's just a lot at play there. ROBERT: Yeah. Like trying to work with other vendors and be agnostic so anybody can adopt these things that we're building. And since we had that vendor lock-in, it's hard for you to adapt the two systems, because they were built in complete silos. So, trying to merge that is an interesting challenge. HARRY: And I think everything I'm saying here, I'm talking about it from the library perspective. But if you look at other industries, I don't think it's really any different. If you look at any of the enterprise-wide management systems that are used in corporate organizations today, most of these corporate entities will stick with the system they chose for a very long time. Because it's incredibly painful, it's disruptive, and it's expensive to switch from one system to another. And so, the idea of you're not happy with a vendor and hey, I can go to somewhere else and maybe keep the system I have in place is really kind of interesting. And even better, if the vendor's not able to provide some of those features that I need but for the most part I like the system, wouldn't it be great if I can hire someone to do that work and to have those pieces built for me? And those are some of the things that open source offers. CHARLES: Right, right. So now, I understand that for example to kind of put a concrete bow on this, [Chuckles] to move away from abstraction of what it means and provide an example, so we have this open source platform, this FOLIO platform. Which if I'm a library, I could in-house, I could either use it on premises on my own servers or I could run them on AWS or I could run them on Google Cloud – there are all these different deployment options and some libraries are doing that, but that's something that they might not want to do. So, I understand that EBSCO is actually going to be for example one of the services that y'all are going to be offering around FOLIO, is actually hosting the platform so that the overhead of managing all of the servers and provisioning accounts and doing all that stuff is going to be taken care of for you. So, I can just sign up. HARRY: Yes. So, that really fed into the results of the survey. For those libraries or organizations that felt they couldn't do it themselves, where would they go? And who could provide those services? So, we're absolutely going into the business of providing these services for libraries that choose to. But at the same time, we're really strongly encouraging other vendors and organizations to provide these services as well. Because for instance, you may represent a series of libraries in let's say Hungary. You may have a vendor there you enjoy working with in the past. It's provided great services for you. There really ought to be no reason why you should not choose that vendor to provide those services for you. And again, it's an open system. There's nothing there that's excluding me and the organization I work for to provide additional services, to provide content or what have you. It's an open system. And so, we should strongly encourage that. And the reality is, if we're going to have a disruption in the market, it seems we can either have one organization or one company trying to usher this disruption along. But what if we could get 10? Or what if we could get 20? Or more companies out there ushering this disruption along simultaneously worldwide. It feels like we've got a lot more of a disruption happening in that case. And so, that's what we're strongly encouraging. CHARLES: Right. But at the same time, I can see it from if I were considering making a play like this, one of the things that would worry me is, “Okay, so we're going to disrupt the market by allowing a large tent where lots of vendors could compete.” But then, I immediately experience fear of, “Well then, how do I differentiate myself?” Because ultimately I want to be competitive. How do I make it so that I'm not a commodity in this new market? HARRY: So really, I think that's key for any vendor that chooses to compete in a market like this. Do you believe as an organization you have not only what's needed to compete but those key differentiators that at least a certain segment of the market would be interested in you and the services you offer? We believe we do. Another company that just recently announced that they're going to be supporting FOLIO and providing services around it is a company called ByWater Solutions. They've actually been in another segment of the library market for many years providing services to libraries as well. Longstanding, actually, with open source codebases. And so, this very much appeals to them. They believe… ROBERT: Oh, interesting. HARRY: They have a niche that they can provide and they are going to be doing that. And we strongly encourage it. What's again great about it is if they set up a library with FOLIO, they're not building the walled garden. They're building or providing the open platform that we can connect our services to. So in many ways, yeah there are some areas we're going to compete. But there are actually many areas that we're also going to be complementary. And I think that's what's really, really interesting to us. CHARLES: So, it sounds like you're also counting on just by having the ecosystem in place and having this sea as it were filling the ocean to enable trade, one of the bets too is that you're going to open lines of business that weren't even possible before. HARRY: Correct. So, another way to look at it – we've got our iPhones or Android devices. Apple built a platform is really what that phone is. When it was released, you could make voice calls. You could do some simple text messaging, some basic email, and I'm sure there are a couple other of things in there that I've forgotten. I do not believe that Apple had any idea that they'd actually be able to create a marketplace that had hundreds of thousands of people and vendors providing features and functionality for that platform. I am pretty sure no one at Apple had ever imagined the guitar tuner would be released. I don't know, a compass app, flashlight apps, whatever. You name it. And not only that, as a user of that platform, you're not happy with the standard email app? Well you know what? I can get a different one. In fact, I've got a choice of many and I can find the one that suits me best. And that's fine. It's an open marketplace. And so, with FOLIO today, we're in early stages. We're building out that platform. We're building out some of the basic functionality for that library that they need to operate as a library. But once this gets released, it's at that point when we believe the more interesting things are going to happen where we build a cataloging app for FOLIO. Well, we know already that there's other organizations that are starting to look at and think about, “You know what? We've got a whole other way or a whole other interest in terms of how we'd like to support those workflows on the FOLIO platform.” Or even better, librarians starting to think about, “Hey, if I've got this open platform just like Apple does, this means I now have the option to build features and functionality that take me where I want to be five years from now, 10 years from now. And I've never had that ability on the existing systems that we use today.” And so, one of the other I think advantages or benefits that something like FOLIO or a platform like this brings to the market is the ability to create that marketplace very much like Apple has done and Google has done with Android as well. ROBERT: So, we're pretty far in, but you mentioned FOLIO a couple of times. Do we want to unpack what FOLIO actually means? HARRY: Yes. FOLIO actually stands for the Future Of Libraries Is Open. ROBERT: Right there in the name. I love it. HARRY: Absolutely. CHARLES: So, we've talked about this platform. We've talked about this marketplace. We've talked about the business incentive of why you would want to do this, why it makes a lot of sense. Clearly, this takes an enormous investment. So, we think, I think, a lot of people think of open source as a bunch of wild developers running around. ROBERT: Pushing commits wherever they want. CHARLES: Pushing out code and doing stuff. And then it kind of organically grows into something that someone then picks up. ROBERT: And then you burn out. CHARLES: Yeah. [Chuckles] But that's I think a lot of people's experience with open source. But an initiative like this takes a staggering investment both in terms of capital resources but also in terms of will, in terms of management, and putting all these enormous forces in motion. There's developing the software, developing the awareness, and I think right now there are hundreds if not thousands of people working on this right now. How do you even go from zero to 6,000 like that? And I'm not talking about people. I'm talking about velocity. [Laughs] HARRY: Right. Early on, when we were conducting research, market research, one of the things we did, we spent some time looking at what we believed were successful open source projects. And I think what was interesting was in many cases it took a single individual or a company to actually create what amounts to that first piece, that first core building block that others could start to expand upon. And very often, they literally just created it themselves, made it available out there as open source, and basically told the world, “Here. Have at it. Have fun. Do with this whatever you wish.” So, we actually thought we'd like to do that. However, building a system on this scale is not that easy. Understanding the operations of a library day-to-day is not that simple. We need help. And so, what we decided early on was: could we kick off and start this project while at the same time [25:42 inaudible] that community as early as possible? To get people excited, interested, and to get this project in a place where we're not the only contributors, where there are many others contributing as well. And when I say ‘contribute' I don't necessarily mean software developers. But that is certainly one aspect of it. But one of the key pieces of building software is gaining access to subject matter experts as well. And it's absolutely key and critical. And so, our goal of course was to build this community, have that community start to provide that in-depth knowledge, those subject matter experts that we need so we can determine what it is we need to build, how we need to build it, and really go from there. And by including those people as early as possible, I think one of the things we find that happens with this project which is really sort of incredible is the excitement that starts to build. The word of mouth advertising, marketing, as librarians, libraries, vendors and individuals start to talk to others and really spread the word about this project. In many ways, it starts to compound or snowball and build on itself. But that was really challenging. And it was really actually kind of slow going in the beginning. Because we started with nothing. And one of the issues you face is, “Well, you want me to contribute my time to this project, yet I see nothing.” Right now it's just a dream. And so, one of those early, early issues was, “Can we build a team small enough, focused enough, where we can start to build some of the basic, basic, basic core pieces, to really prove to the world that this project is real? This project is actually moving forward and this project is actually delivering.” And now that we're in a state where people can actually see working software, the excitement is just starting to expand and compound rapidly. And we see it everywhere. CHARLES: So, do you find libraries or people in the target market, there's that key point where they start to feel empowered? It's real and then the thing that I think that you're going for is to have the realization dawn that not only is it real, I can put my hands on the wheel and I could control my destiny. And I can contribute now because there's this critical mass. ROBERT: You have the power to make change, which never existed in the library world before. HARRY: Or at least, not in this specific area. Because to be truthful, I think libraries as a whole believe they're making change around the world all the time. But it's really related to content. But this is actually making changes in the actual operations of the library. And they are actually empowered to get involved, to contribute, and to help us get this done. And it seems to really resonate with folks. Because it's something they haven't been able to do previously. And it seems genuinely exciting. And we announced this really, well the market learned that this was happening I'd say a little over two years ago. Maybe more like two and a half years ago. And it was sort of a gentle drip in terms of a roll out. People started to learn because we started talking to them. There was no real active marketing going on. But of course, those people started to talk to other people. And so, it happened. And when we were able to provide those first demonstrations, no matter how rudimentary it was, that's when things seemed to really kick into a much higher gear where people started talking to each other. Librarians started talking to each other and say, “Hey, this is real. This is exciting.” ROBERT: It's not vaporware. HARRY: And this is happening. Right. It's not vaporware. And we need to get involved. And so, they have. CHARLES: Yeah. And the energy and involvement just in the course of the time that we've been a part of the project is apparent. Every kind of gathering is larger and the diversity of topics that are discussed is increasing. And yeah, the conversations have burned from “What can we do with it?” to the last time the project got together as a group, it had much more of a conference-y feel. And the topics being discussed were like, “How do we actually deploy this to our real systems?” Which has been fantastic to see. And so, just to actually feel the traction is just, it's so gratifying. So, I guess one of the questions that is on my mind is – so you mentioned that you had been at this for about two and a half years. What is in your mind the most pleasant, unexpected outcome of this project that you didn't foresee two and a half years ago that you're experiencing now? HARRY: So, I think one of the one's that's surprising is I've never actually personally been involved in an open source project before. And I think one of the fears constantly working for organizations that really have been closed source – in fact, I've been that my adult working life – and you sort of walk into this with some [trepidation]. Because oh my gosh, everything I'm doing, everything I say, everything that gets documented is going to be out in the open for everyone to see? Including competition and everyone else? And I have to say, one of the most interesting things, or one of my favorite pieces here, is: it is so freeing. It's a release. It's actually amazing to not care about what your competition or anyone is doing or thinking. And it's even more amazing whenever you've got a question and someone's out there asking you for access to documentation, you can simply point them to the website, to the URL and say, “It's there. It's all there. Anything you want is there. Go take a look.” I think that's pretty amazing. The other one of course are the relationships between many, many different people who I've just never really been – or I never would have had the chance to work with before. And really hearing all these different perspectives and points of view as far as what people think are right, correct, or what we should be doing – it's great to see. And it's great to see this wildfire word of mouth message that seems to be moving everywhere. We're hearing back from people not just in North America, not just from the EU, but from the Middle East, from South and Central America. There's really just people interested everywhere. And it's amazing to me, because I don't think I spoke to anyone over there. So, it's happening. And that's just an exciting thing to see. CHARLES: Yeah, yeah. ROBERT: It's really cool that open source can connect you with the rest of the world like that. It's just so powerful. HARRY: It does. And it's an amazing thing. ROBERT: And the amount of collaboration that happens, I've never experienced it in any other way. It's really cool. [Chuckles] I don't know how else to put it. It's just, it's almost mind-blowing that you are able to across timezones, across the world, collaborate with somebody on something that you both feel passionate about and you're pushing it forward in an open manner. HARRY: Right. And it's also amazing when you have these meetings and there's people you've been collaborating with for months if not a year or more. And getting to meet them face-to-face for the first time. That's really a pretty amazing experience. ROBERT: Yeah. And it's pretty awesome. At our last gathering that we had at WolfCon, I had the absolute pleasure of chatting up a bunch of different librarians. And hearing their experiences and what they're looking for out of an experience, it's just really cool to be able to talk to those people and see how they work and help build this into the platform that they're wanting to use. HARRY: Right, right. CHARLES: Yeah. I would say on the whole, there's been a lot of those wonderful, unexpected outcomes. Were there any that presented a particular challenge or wasn't quite so much a walk along the path of roses? HARRY: So, you know I think the biggest one is – I mentioned earlier we embarked on this project a little differently versus what we saw as normally successful open source projects, right? We did not have that core, beautiful, shiny object to unleash onto the world and let them know, “Hey, have at it.” And so, it wasn't so hard in terms of getting interest. But what's been hard is the amount of interest has generated enormous numbers of organizations that are interested in contributing to the project. Which also implies then that now, not only are they coming to us asking us, “Hey, how can we help? What can we do here?” but then there's a certain aspect, because this is a first version of, “How do you manage the building and construction of that very first version of this software project when the reality of the matter is, you're not really responsible for most everyone working on the project?” And how do you get everyone aligned and organized? How do you get everyone onto that same path along with those same milestones that we've all agreed on? And even worse, how do you get agreement on those milestones so we can all walk that same path and deliver that first version? And so, I get asked sometimes by folks that are involved in other open source projects, “How do you handle this situation? Or how do you manage all the work that goes on?” And when we tell them, it's kind of surprising because it's not what they're used to seeing. And a lot of it is because of the way we started, the interest that was generated early on, and the fact that we did not have an initial version. And I don't want that to sound like, “Oh, this is a huge problem,” or, “If I were to do it again, I would not do it this way again.” I in fact would do it this way again. I think there are a lot of benefits and it's been a great and interesting way to go. It's just the management aspects of it are definitely challenging. And I think more than maybe we had initially anticipated. Going into this next time, though, I definitely know what I'm facing and I'll be prepared. CHARLES: Yeah. So with that in mind, given that you've been through this, do you have any advice to offer someone who might be considering embarking on a similar journey? And undertaking a similar Herculean task. HARRY: Well, I think you'll find it's harder than you think. And be sure to plan for that. But I guess at the same time, I think my biggest advice or my best advice would be: you need to keep an open mind. And when I mean an open mind, you need to be open to other thoughts and ideas. And I think you need to put yourself in the perspective of what if you were one of these other people that are working on the project or trying to contribute to this project? What are the things that you're doing or rather the things that you're doing now, the way you're acting, the way you're reacting, how does that look to others on the project? Because you're not the only one contributing. You're not the only organization contributing. And are the things you're doing reflecting badly in terms of others' perception or optics as to what this looks like as an open source project? And I think for me and others, there was a huge learning experience. Because your first thought is, “I'm going to tackle this like any other software project,” and it's not. It's not like that at all. CHARLES: I think that's… ROBERT: That makes sense. CHARLES: Yes, that makes sense. That's excellent. That's excellent advice. And I think that's one of the things that makes open source so powerful, is because there's that aspect just baked into it from the get go, you have to be mindful of a bunch of different perspectives. And that ultimately results in a solution that's going to be workable for a bunch of different perspectives, that's going to be flexible to accommodate for all the different use cases that all the different participants in the community might bring to the table. HARRY: And you have to be very mindful of how your actions are perceived. Because normally, your actions are perceived by the company you work for, what tends to have a particular culture. But on an open source project, you're actually dealing with many different cultures. CHARLES: Yes. HARRY: And so, that's a tight line that you have to walk. CHARLES: That was a powerful note to end on. Thank you everybody for listening. We are The Frontside and we build software that you can stake your future on. If you want to get in touch with us, continue the conversation, you can reach out to us on Twitter at @TheFrontside or drop us an email at contact@frontside.io. Thank you so much Harry, for being on the show today and talking to us about FOLIO. HARRY: And thank you very much for having me. This has been great. CHARLES: And if you want to, if there's something that you want to learn about or a topic that you want to discuss, please, please let us know. We always are open for your feedback, especially when it comes for things that you would want to hear. And if you want to get involved or learn more about the FOLIO platform, you can just head on over to FOLIO.org. There are resources for librarians, developers, and anyone who is curious about becoming a community member. Thanks as always to Mandy, our producer. And we've got a really great podcast coming up on the 14th of June. We're going to have Michael Jackson on the podcast to talk about separations of concerns in React. So again, thank you Robert. Thank you Harry. And we'll see you all next time.

Ähnlich wie an der Börse auch, solltest du im Leben nicht völlig risikoavers agieren. Sonst verpasst du möglicherweise Chancen. Robert Heineke hat die Chancen ergriffen, die sich ihm geboten haben. Heute ist er Unternehmer und erfolgreicher YouTuber, der in den letzten zwei Jahren viele Erfahrungen sammeln konnte. Im Interview erzählt er von seinem Weg.Das heißt jetzt natürlich nicht, dass du völlig blind Entscheidungen treffen und irgendwelchen Träumen hinterher jagen solltest. Traumfänger gibt es an jeder Ecke, die einen zu Kurzschlusshandlungen verleiten wollen. Laut wird geschrieen: Werde schnell reich, erreiche im Handumdrehen finanzielle Freiheit oder "Raus aus dem Hamsterrad"-Nonsens.Genau darum geht es im Gespräch mit Robert Heineke nämlich auch - und warum du diesen Leuten nicht blind vertrauen solltest. Robert hat sein duales Studium berufsbegleitend abgeschlossen, hatte einen guten Job und entschied sich trotzdem für einen anderen Weg. Parallel startete er noch den sehr erfolgreichen 5-Ideen-Kanal bei YouTube, der über 30.000 Abonnenten hat und interessante Ideen aus Büchern vorstellt. Shownotes:Zu Roberts WebseiteZur 5 Ideen WebseiteAmazon FBA - 100.000 € nach 5 Monaten?Zu Roberts Podcast-Interview mit mir Buchempfehlung von Robert: "So denken Millionäre - Die Beziehung zwischen Ihrem Kopf und Kontostand" von Harv.T. Ecker*Robert Kiyosaki - Rich Dad Poor Dad** = Affiliate Links Dir entstehen durch einen Klick weder Nachteile noch irgendwelche Kosten. Wenn Du Dich für ein Produkt entscheiden solltest, zahlst Du denselben Preis wie sonst auch. Und Du unterstützt damit meine Arbeit und ich erhalte eine kleine Provision, wenn Du Dich nach einem Klick für das Produkt/Angebot entscheiden solltest. Vielen Dank im Voraus. Ich weiß das sehr zu schätzen.

Toran Billups @toranb | GitHub | Blog Show Notes: 02:23 - Ember 2.0; Data Down, Actions Up 08:28 - redux and State 16:39 - Dispatching Actions/Patterns 24:00 - Components and Routing 31:00 - ember-redux and Cloning the react-redux API 35:22 - Hot Reloading 41:22 - Audience 47:02 - Motivation 50:25 - Building Component Trees Resources: Toran Billups: Test-Driven Development By Example @ EmberConf 2015 Dan Abramov: Live React: Hot Reloading with Time Travel @ react-europe 2015 react-redux Charles Lowell: Immutability is for UI, You and I @ EmberConf 2016 redux-thunk Ryan Toronto: Safety of the herd EmberMap: Component side effects Functional Programming Browserify More Toran Billups Talks Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody. Welcome to The Frontside Podcast. This is Episode 55. We're broadcasting and everybody's here in Austin, although we're still remote. I am here with a really special panel today. There's me, which makes it special by default. My name is Charles Lowell. I'm a developer here at The Frontside. I'm also here with Robert De Luca, who also develops JavaScript codes at The Frontside and we have today [drum roll sound] -- I'm really, really going to work that drumroll -- Toran Billups. What's up, man? TORAN: Hey, man. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. CHARLES: Toran is with us today and he's going to be talking about a lot of things. He's going to be talking about today mostly about Redux and his efforts to meld Redux and make it useful within the Ember community. But first, if you have not heard of Toran, I think the first time we'd interacted over email, Slack briefly but then when I really, really saw you for the first time was at EmberConf, I think in 2015 and he just gave the most amazing talk on Test Driven Development and really kind of the focus on you can set up your acceptance tests from the outside into really define that behavior and set out that firm shell and then actually build your application from the outside in. You've really kind of been talking about that message. We like to have people on here who all about walking the walk. That's certainly the first thing that I've noticed that you were doing in the community but then more recently, you've been playing with Redux. Not playing with Redux, actually making a concerted effort to bring this kind of pattern into Ember. I just wanted to start out, how did you jump onto that track? TORAN: Some months after EmberConf in 2015, as you mentioned that talk was not only, probably the most well-rehearsed talk I've ever given but definitely the most well-received. I got a lot of people excited and really gave me a lot of opportunities that weren't there before that was also believe in that keynote in 2015 as when Ember 2.0 was announced. The interesting part of Ember 2.0, of course was we were using it, and it was called Ember 1.13, which actually made it really great. At the time, I was very much excited about the stability that offered. Other folks were not as much as interested in that idea or those values, in the JavaScript community so it's really exciting. Yet at the same time, there was this new mantra that was being talked about more that I knew nothing about. It was this 'data down, actions up' idea. I still remember as much as the stability was awesome, I also started to doubt not Ember core in particular but the ideas that were being espoused by other folks around the Ember core team because I didn't really understand the value. For instance, if I had the tree of components back then in early Ember 1.13 or 2.0 days and I had an Ember model or some kind of Ember object at the bottom of this tree, why would I not just do Ember.set. I remember, actually you may recall conversations you had with people at EmberConf around that time but there was actually varying definitions of what 'data down, actions up' meant to different people and actually never met the same thing to anyone. It was funny enough. Because of that, it sort of drove this fear in me that I didn't know what I was talking about. I was consulting at the time so I wanted to sound like I knew what I was talking about as you probably should. You guys are in that business so you know what I mean. Because of that doubt, eventually I sort of become apathetic to really trying to understand better what 'data down, actions up' meant or how components should be constructed and really what the wider impacts of Ember 2.0 meant. Because of that, I just found myself, not really loving learning. I felt like everything else in learning was a hyped up thing that would never happen or a hyped up thing that I didn't really understand or didn't make sense in the context of Ember at that time so I just kind of floated by. Everybody has their ebb and flows in the journey of excitement or not. For me, this was just the down moment. One of the things, like an analogy to this is when you lose your hunger in real life, you'd be very much like losing your hunger for learning. There's this interesting hormone that your body produces when you're actually physically hungry that kind of gives you the physical symptoms like your stomach cramps that tells your brain probably should eat somewhere. When those things aren't happening or that hormones not being produced, it's often because you've quit eating yourself. If you've ever gone on a fast or something weird like that on day three, your body quits secreting this hormone so you just sort of or not hungry at all, which is kind of weird. The same sort of thing was happening to me. If you ask a doctor or a physician, "What's the first thing I should do? I'm not hungry anymore." They'll tell you, "You just start eating." But I'm not hungry now so the same thing applied in my life and I think the first step really is just eat anyway. In this case, it was just learn something anyway even if you're not in love with learning right now. Eventually, your body will start producing this hormone, in the hunger example and for me, I just sort of got back in the flow and what came from this was a routine, which is really the second part of how you get your hunger back, not just eating once a day. I was eating three meals a day or more, especially if you haven't been eating. For me, I just set aside an hour a day, in addition to consulting work and things that would get me interested in loving learning again. The third component to this was trying something different. At the time, of course I was just doing Ember, I pretty much had done Ember since 2012 like some of you guys and I feel like there wasn't a lot of new. There was patterns and ideas but there was anything really challenging me. That's when I sort of looked around at the React community and I had done some React in the early days when I was super hyped up but I still feel vaguely different. Not that it's jQuery or any way but I didn't feel like this fully encompass single page out framework. The reasons I got into Ember very early on were that I wanted to build rich single page apps. If you guys remember from the early React days, that also wasn't really the messaging with React and maybe today with View. In fact, that's kind of one of the benefits or they speak to in those communities about why you use React because you don't have to use it for your whole app. You could kind of piecemeal it in, which totally cool. You got to see it out with Ember too. But in my mind, I just wanted to build a rich JavaScript lines that could compete with the iPhone or the iPhone apps that were popular in that day. Through this process, I started looking at React and really just kind of get back into it again, get going again. I wasn't really in love with it but I needed to try something outside of the realm I was used to. As part of that, I noticed there was this talk by Dan Abramov, I think he works for Facebook now, big in the React community, of course and he gave this talk at a conference in Europe that introduced Redux. What's funny, if you find out or dive deeper into that story is he actually pitched the talk, not really having built any of this and just thought, "This sounds like a great idea," and then of course the talk was accepted. Like most, he delivered on that promise and made a great talk. There are definitely courage folks to check out and I should link it to you here. We can show noted that, I'm sure. That talk make me excited mostly because there was a lot of whiz-bang. If you guys remember any great talk you've ever seen, the talk even that I gave at EmberConf that you mentioned, Charles the thing that blew people away was this very end moment that, of course I had produced to be a great moment. In the same way, Dan during this talk introduced some new ideas or new to the JavaScript community. One of those was the tooling that can change when the state doesn't change in your application. That got me sort of piqued my interest, in part because I was actually big test driven guy and I thought, "I won't use any of this stuff. It just seems cool. It's a gimmick. Tester development is how you really build app." If anything I thought to disprove it by getting involved and learning a little bit more but what I instantly found was the simplicity of data changes rerender. That sounds very high level, of course but it was almost just that simple, instead of being like how does this change to an object in my array, bubble out through notifications on the Ember side and notify the Ember change detection to rerender. Well, I'm not entirely sure so when I was start debugging that, I noticed a lot of framework code between me and the rerender. It's that's how Ember is, right? When I boiled that down in jQuery with vanilla Redux, not even using React at all, I was like, "Wow, there's just a call back. I wonder why I haven't been doing this." CHARLES: As a single callback for a global state? TORAN: Correct. CHARLES: So there's no call back for every single path in your tree. You just used that one call back? TORAN: I'll fill in for Rob here. I know he's jumping at it. You should probably define a Redux is. He's really good at asking that question. Redux in this case, for me is just a global JavaScript object to use to hydrate your templates. They'll give you some big spiel about state container, if you go check out the website. But for me and in this context of being on an Ember-centric sort of podcast, we already use this idea in Ember today. If you're just feeding your templates from some high level service, it's a very similar idea in that Redux is just a single service. In the Ember case, especially you can talk about the add-on, I maintain later, but really it's just a service with a single object that will help you populate all of your components. ROBERT: Yeah, I love Redux. I actually sort of coming into the Redux world, probably to about six to eight months ago and it was around the same thing like exploring React stuff. I share similar opinions to you as nobody really can define 'data down, actions up'. I also think that 'data down, actions up' cannot just live in the component. In a lot of the Ember apps I worked on, there's times where I'll be looking up to get a new state and it comes in from the side and something's mutating, something that I have no idea why and where it was mutated and Redux does a really good job at helping you manage what changes and why it changed. CHARLES: I have a question too. When you're actually using Redux, you said you got a single tree that you used to hydrate your templates. In the context of Ember, where do you maintain that single object? I assume you have one store, one instance of your Redux state per application? TORAN: Correct. There's just a service like you imagine in the Ember data service and that holds on to really just an identity map or a single graph object that will let you pass or pull that in by injecting the service into your components if you want to do that or your route then just asking for that state. CHARLES: Because I think that for a lot of people in the Ember community certainly, when I was kind of grappling with these ideas, the idea of having a single global object as your state seems so counterintuitive, so going to go against everything that we learned, that you have to decompose a problem into its component parts. Obviously, Redux has an answer for that so how does that work? How do you decompose that state into saying, "I'm just interested in this kind of local state." How does local state work in Redux? TORAN: I should define local state is state specific to the component. It doesn't need to bleed up and has no value at the global level. CHARLES: Usually, I got two components. Let's say, I want to store both of their states in the Redux store. Obviously, component one is not interested in seeing any state that's not related to it so it's only interested in its own state and it's not interested in any of the surrounding context. How does that work? How do you connect a single component or connect a route to the store? TORAN: There's really just a simple method on Redux -- the Redux store itself, which it says, "Give me the state." What may not sound great at first is that it say, "I will give you all the state and that is your job to pull from that or map three attributes from that whole tree into my component." Then by side effect if you're using our add-on or if you don't React-Redux, you actually subscribe then to call backs on any of those changes so if something were to be bumped, then your component is given the opportunity to rerender during that call back. CHARLES: Now, in terms of Ember-Redux, that kind plumbing is hidden from you. You don't actually have to explicitly map that state. You can say, "I want to connect this component into the Redux store," and you're just off to the races. ROBERT: Is there a mapStateToProps or... I don't know what that would be called in Ember-land. TORAN: That brings about interesting point. I literally copied this API that you guys are probably looked at from the readme from this very popular project in React called React-Redux. The word that you're using, Charles is this word connect. Actually, I like that word because that's how I think about it. I want to connect the components to the single source of truth and then respond by rerendering when something changes. The API is actually very similar on what you said, Rob. In fact, the set of mapStateToProps is just map states to computed, which is very much the same idea so instead of really defining the component like you might normally, this is where it gets a little weird for your classic Ember developer, you actually just write two functions and really only one is require. The first one is what you're hinting at Charles, which is I want to pull from the state a set of properties and as you mentioned, the plumbing is sort of hidden, magically those are actually created as CPs or Computed Properties on your component so you can go to your HPS file, your handlebars template and say, "Oh, I took number from the global state and I'm just going to map it in this function and now I can go to my handlebars template and number," and there it is. Every time you bump number up or down, you'll get a rerun in your callback and the HPS will update. The other function, as sort of glossed over is really just for your closure actions. If you would like to ask the store to do something and saying, "I would actually like to increment the number," then you can fire an action and the second block just does also additional magic, which just maps a closure action by letting you get this dispatched keyword. Dispatch in a Redux context is just, "I'm going to send an action," and you can think of it almost in vanilla JavaScript terms as, "I have an event. Someone will handle this event and I'm just going to throw it up." ROBERT: It makes its way to reducer then from there, right? TORAN: Correct. We haven't talked too much about that process. The reducer really says, "I'm going to be given a state or the initial state, if you haven't done this yet," which would be maybe in the number scenario. I'm going to start with zero as a sensible default and then I'm going to have an action, whether that's add or subtract in this simple example and in add, I'm just going to take the state coming in, even if it starts out at zero and then do something, transform it to a new state. Actually the important word here is that -- I know you guys are big in the functional world, functional programming and that's the word actually got me interested and really excited about programming again as well, in the most perfect sense -- a pure function, which just means that there are no side effects. There's no mutation or changing of the state that comes in when you do it correctly. In this case, actually instead of mutating something I'm actually returning to number two or to number one and you're like, "Now, we have both zero and one in kind of a timeline." If you think about this almost as the realistic stories, we're just kind of kicking a pointer to a new block of state. Every single time you come to reducer, we still have the old state and we can still walk backwards, which is how the time travel debugging works as we just flip the pointer back in time. As you guys have talked about and I think, Charles you mentioned last year in EmberConf, the immutability story has of course a whole slew of great properties that come with it and those we haven't even obviously talked about. But hopefully I gave people a broad overview of what the reducer does. In its most simplest form, state comes and action returns a new state. ROBERT: Yeah, in Charles's talk and his research, I got to sit next to him and watched him do that actually kind of shaped a lot of my thinking and hunger, if we want to keep that going towards doing like something that's immutable and state management in Ember. I would like to thank you, Toran for building that add-on and spearheading Redux because Redux is pretty awesome for state management. CHARLES: By the way, you did in that call out the analogy for hunger. I really, really, really like that. It's an important tidbit not to miss is that when you are feeling those kind of doldrums of development. I know I was actually ironically feeling that about the same time in 2015, feeling of in a funk because I feel like there was a lot of stuff coming down the pipe like with 'data down, actions up' but no good examples of where we've actually seen this in practice. I think Redux is an actual implementation of 'data down, actions up' so I think it's fantastic that you were able to go and seek inspiration there like, "We've got this message of the way things that ought to be doing with the applications ought to be built." But we don't actually have any concrete examples that we can look to. I think the Redux actually is almost the most pure version of that 'data down, actions up'. I guess my next question is given that you've got this global store, you've got a way to connect components. I assume there are other ways to dispatch actions from within your Ember application like what are the patterns that you're seeing emerge around this? We've talked about how you would use them in components. Suppose my tree of components gets pretty complex, how do I manage that to kind of the passing of data down? Do parent components play any role in the data that their subcomponents see? Is each component connecting directly to the store? I'm just kind of curious where that balance lies and how things are kind of playing out? TORAN: There's really two points in your bigger question. One that I was going to try out of you but then you kept going. That was really around side effects. How do you actually dispatch or make changes, requests changes and see the flow and we could talk about that really starts out briefly with a Promise based approach. With Redux, most people don't know but it's basically like asynchronous flow. Dispatch would normally be like asynchronous action where you're sort of blocking and then doing, transform and getting it back. In the simplest ways, you see there is this tool or this add-on, Redux-thunk, which you can use Promises now and async will still work as if it were synchronous essentially by firing dispatch up and letting your reducer do the work. I think that is a great introductory because especially as Ember developers, we've got a lot of experience with Promises so this is just the same thing. In most of the demos I've done and if you check out the read me, there's like a full Yelp Clone example. It's using this approach because it's a little bit more familiar to most folks. CHARLES: Just to clarify what would happen there is you're essentially getting a new state transition when every Promise resolves or rejects. If it's rejects, that's a state transition. If it resolves, that's a state transition. The next Promise that resolves is another state transition. Is that fair to say? TORAN: Assuming you want to alter and use that top level state, of course you could reject or resolve and just not even bother with the top level store. We kind of skipped over some of the benefits and we could just roll back to that briefly. Why would you use top level stores at all? You mentioned earlier and it kind of seems counterintuitive. This is basic global variable. That's what we're talking about. In the Ember example, I think it's actually sort of not weird because if you guys, your Ember data in its earlier form or even today, it really very much is that. We have this one cache of objects related or otherwise and we pass those around. They are a global object or almost like a global variable. The downside of that in my experience has been that is truly mutable and actually everything is driven by mutating those and then having callbacks or denotify property change drive your template updates. That is not the process with Redux, of course. It feels more explicit, where I can actually go look up kind of a tree or look up table of actions and see exactly what's going to happen. Then also to your second half of the question, which is like how was the components wired up? How do they map? I actually uses an interesting pattern which isn't specific to Ember-Redux or Redux, which is to create a seam in my components now where I have truly HTML CSS components. Separating those from the components and know about the data and the closure action story. Forgetting Redux for a moment and all of this actually made my regular Ember much better because I started to produce this component that would connect to a Ember data store, provide closure actions to send up in the most pure 'data down, actions up' sense and then I would connect it using the yield block, which credits to you and other folks at EmberConf that you, Charles kind of talked me into this because I was a espousing this idea but I didn't really understand that I would actually nest within this parent, the HTML component that would just be handed the properties to render. When we do this, again it still is I think a better pattern even if you're not using Redux but when we did it and I when I started with Redux, the only thing that really gets me in hot water is when people see this and they're like, "Oh, so this is the first thing that comes down from the routed controllers template. Then there's always this brief moment of like, "I'm not sure what to say. I don't want to predict the future and I'm not trying to be Mr Routable Components here." But for me, most of my controller templates are just a landing page for the component tree to begin. Again, that's not me trying to hacking the route or anything to say, "I want to use this controller as a routed to component. I think eventually when that RFC lands, this will look different, anyway so I'm not trying to have people do things really outside of the Ember ecosystem or outside of the norm." But from there, I feel like still just landing into a component, allows you this composition which is supposed is the real value of the components structure. They are too primitive to build pages and then eventually full apps. ROBERT: So if we want to drop parallel, it's container versus presentation components, right? TORAN: Yes and that of course, again stolen from, not me probably stolen from someone else in the 70s. But you know, Dan Abramov is accredited to bringing that idea about in React. Actually I like the idea because let's pretend I had done this pattern in 2013. Now, it's using Ember data or simple store or Erik Bryn's Ember model, something like that. Then eventually, the community start shifting to something else. It could be MobX, it could be Redux and whatever the case, I could just very easily swap out those connected components that have no HTML CSS. The data source changes and all the presentation components do not know. They do not change. There is actually an iterable story to refactor through, an update like that normally is kind of a [inaudible]. If you have ever done PHP in the early days or at least my PHP experience in 1999 -- no offense to PHP today -- was that everything was so stuck together or so couple that I could never refactor anything out of it. Of course, you probably do this in a consulting space as I have, where he first thing on a messy project is actually making those scenes in the application anyway to allow you to upgrade incrementally. This process is just more of an upfront thought and I don't think it's really taken hold than it needs to in the Ember community. It's just something I was experimenting with and I'm finding a lot of value because I think the connection of the data source is a different activity than HTML. ROBERT: I think it also holds a lot of value. CHARLES: I think it holds a lot of value. I think there's a dawning awareness of this. In your comment, I actually thought of two blog posts for EmberMap, which I was just reading this morning. One was talking about kind of the safety of the herd and don't worry so much about controllers versus radical components like use your controllers, use your components. Don't worry about it too much. It'll get sorted out. I definitely agree with that. Although, you definitely want to experiment when you're experiencing particular pain around something. But then, the next thing which I think came out yesterday was talking about basically components for managing side effects, which I think is an unfortunate name because I think side effects is a tainted word. But basically, the idea is having presentation components and container components and the container components are responsible for managing the state. I think that idea is valuable in of itself and I hope that it takes root. I think that's something that you're doing, something that we're doing and as people kind of realize it, it does take root, just kind of by virtue of its own value. Let me summarize if I understand it correctly. As part of these job, you've got these container components and their job is, I like the term that you used, creating a seam. Their job in the Redux world is to take a slice of that global state. You have these components whose responsibility is taking a slice of that global state and presenting that global state to HTML CSS aka presentation components that lie underneath them. Is that a fair assessment? Then if that's so, I've got a second part to that. I just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. For components that are further downstream on that tree, do you ever switch back to data containers like you switch between data components and presentation components and then back to data components and then to presentation components and kind of back and forth and back and forth on down the tree? Or do you mostly see it as one-kind of container component on top and then presentation components all the way down? TORAN: It's a great question. I think that still needs a fair bit of experience in the Ember community because the patterns I pulled from the source code I read a lot is mostly from the React ecosystem. Because of that, there's a very split view or a different view in that community on routing. We may share some of those views in Ember but I think for the most part, we assume routing actually and that's one of the tricky part to answer your question. This is a broad statement so I'm likely wrong in every context but I don't love to be creating these data components that don't get routed to if I can help it. I'm sure there are situations that have been really complex, places where you just have to make, no route here because I don't want change the URL for instance and I'm just going to make this thing like a routed to component with no URL to get me here. But for the most part, I treat the entry point to this route and when I land on this route at this time, it's appropriate to ask for the data likely coming from the model hook in the route. In fact, all that's still the same. That's also where it's a little weird. If you've ever seen a full component tree in a React app, they may not have a router at all. In that situation I think, Redux was in particular even better because you don't have to pass from the top app component, the same props or the same data all the way down that tree. In fact, if you read documentation about why Redux in the React ecosystem they'll say, "It gives you this place where we can create a little shim and then ask for the data down here in the [inaudible] mode. You don't have to pass it from the app to that, to that." I see those benefits but in Ember we don't really get as much from that. In fact, they still tell people who challenged the global state idea that not everything maybe should be a global state but you give up some things by doing that. The first one I would say, which I think is the most valuable for anyone doing vanilla Ember with Ember data or someone experimenting with React or Redux. Or the case I'm most interested in, the audience I'm after which is Redux in Ember, which is do you actually need to have that state in one place. The prime example of this that is the greatest use case is master detail. What I mean by that is you have a list of things and when someone drills into one of those, you can also see that at the same time. There's really two choices you can make here. One is I'm going to have two separate data sources to feed two separate components so the list will go get its data and then the detail won't even use that data at all. Just go get its own data. In that case, you may up against a problem where you need to synchronize at some point and here's the tradeoff. Either synchronize the two separate states or you have a single source of truth. That's a real benefit I think of Redux for the most part. It's like the broad, "Do I want deterministic rendering?" We've all heard the joke about the Facebook nav bar that's like, "You have one message," and you're like, "No, I just answered it down here." Well, that's a different component so the joke is like, "Oh, Redux must be working. We have one up here but I've already read the message." You know? Someone obviously is in charge of synchronizing in those sort of examples. Maybe not just doing it well or they run up against an issue synchronizing that. My experience doing back end development, colors this for me. What I rather have three databases and they kind of synchronize the state across them or I rather have the one postgres or SQL server database that is the source of truth so that when I render something to a customer, I can guarantee that it's not in a transition to be synchronized. It is the source of truth. CHARLES: Right, I really like that and I think the point that I take from that is that, and again this speaks to people who might be internally reacting to this idea of a global state is that you actually do have a global state always in your UI, whether you acknowledge it or not. It's composed of all the other distributed states that are sprinkled around your application so if you take an approach like Redux, you're kind of acknowledging that upfront that at any given time, I do in fact have a global state. I might as well deal with that explicitly. That's kind of a key innovation. I also like what you said too about kind of treating the router in Ember really leaning on the router as a good way to partition your data or drill down into a sub-piece of that global state. Inside Ember-Redux, are there explicit hooks for dealing with the Redux store inside your routes? TORAN: Yeah, that's that one that gets me the most trouble. When I see a blog post and memes that are all about the herd lately, can't help but feel like they're pointed directly at me because of some of these new ideas. CHARLES: Toran, I'm just telling you. This is a safe space. We believe in innovation here. You're okay. TORAN: Yeah. CHARLES: Let me add-on that. I didn't mean that as a knock to you. I do think they call this out of the end of the blog post. I think acting in concert with the community for the most part, actually fosters innovations and an innovative journeys like the one on which you're currently embarked because you don't have to worry about CLI tools and you don't have to worry about this. You can focus on the problem of like how does an Ember application work with a global atom as its state. TORAN: That is the idea. I mean the route is interesting. I have a little helper to your point, Charles if you've seen some of the docs or any of the examples. There is a little helper for routes and all it really does is provide dispatch as an argument. For instance, a lot of times I just want a model to be a regular function and dispatch to be an argument so I can return a Promise or do some Generator stuff as a side effect. In that way, I sort of create a shorthand which is just really simple. It allows me to say [inaudible] model and then have dispatch as an argument and run my code then just providing that to this special little helper. It's a functional type helper called route and what it does behind the scenes is it injects the Redux service for me, which is again something you can do by hand. If you really just don't like that or you want to be more in the herd, you can just have a regular route, inject the service and then get dispatched from that service and use it. ROBERT: It looks like you just dropped the version 2.0, like three hours ago. I would like to ask, we heard about your journey like you were feeling like you weren't hungry for learning. I want to know more about where you actually sat down and wanted to write this add-on on and why you chose to clone the React-Redux API and what took you on that path? TORAN: Yeah, that's a good question. Back to benefits or the reasons I got excited about, of course I mentioned during the talk that Dan Abramov did. There was some interesting dev tools. First of which was this thing Time Travel Debugging which it allows you to sort of move backwards in time and pretend as if actions and mutations or what looked like mutations that never occurred. That was very interesting. I wasn't really sure of the value, especially at the time. I told you guys around 2015, I was consulting which lucky me, I was doing Greenfield. Thankfully, I was working with a really great team and some great people, built an amazing product. I don't really understand the pain of this. For the most part Ember-set was doing its job and I didn't really have a lot of interest in learning this. But as I got more into it, also started a full time job last year, I pretty much just fix bugs for a year. Anyone who's been on one side of the fence or the other knows that the bug fixing side will sort of expose, maybe the weaknesses of the application or patterns or choices made. For me, that was really mutation or shared mutable stake aka the root of all evil. If you've ever looked at your Elm ClojureScript, Elm next is the same vein where immutability is very much there. Charles, of course gave his talk on immutability and trying to get people interested in that or more interested in the Ember community. That was really all I wanted to do to your point, Rob was provide really an outlet for people to use this and I wanted to keep the messaging away from the things I didn't like, which I think was actually something I screwed up to be fair early on. I think I was very vocal in the microcosm that I would talk to people about like, "These are the things I don't like about Ember," or I would use the word 'Ember the good parts' plus 'Ember the bad parts' and I was told not to say that anymore on the Slack channel. Once I started getting too much needed feedback -- I don't want to be negative about it -- I changed my messaging and as part of that, you mentioned Rob I basically cargo-culted or copied this API from React-Redux called connect and excluding the brief route helper that I mentioned, Charles a minute ago, the real idea here is you just call disconnect function with two other functions: mapping state and closure actions. Everything else becomes then vanilla JavaScript in this reducer function we talked about briefly where I have state coming in and I need to transform it into a new state. One interesting benefit of that -- I wasn't overly critical about until I really saw the difference is that -- I'm no longer using the Ember object. I'm not doing Ember.get and set, which immediately start to open the door some time last year for TypeScripts interest. I'm actually not a super type friendly person. I sort of left Objective C and C# and Java in my background and have like this Vietnam experience when people ask me about types. But I do understand one very critical fact that I can't dispute about types is that there are more information for the next programmer than you have without them. Again, my experience this last 12 months has been, as a maintenance programmer, I need more information. Tests are great when they're there but they also don't provide the interface or all the information about those and certainly the compiler may help as well. I don't know yet. I'm not doing any TypeScript. What I started notice is also more functional programming and maybe just not in our core yet but also things I wanted to steal from other ecosystems because I also found is very interesting. I started to study functional programming. I know like nothing about it, of course. I don't think anyone does because I can't describe a monad without getting in trouble or being wrong. For me, the real value is the separation of the data structure and the function. I'm preaching to the choir here but that was so much like an interesting idea to me and actually spurred on some of the further patterns or adoption of those in my work in Ember-Redux because this presentation and container component idea was really that I was separating the data structure from the function of the view. I think you mentioned this in your talk at EmberConf where the actual HTMLbars template is really just a function that has data in, HTML out. I started to internalize that and think about that and what were the properties I got from that, as well as I enjoyed functional programming. Some other great benefits that we've already touched on briefly are just how much more of this I felt explicit, not that Ember-set is inherently implicit but when you do a Ember-set for mutation to chase down every single place in a complex system to determine why they something render this way? It does feel a little more implicit than something like React-Redux with this connect function where I was like, "Wow," when I was doing React. Especially, I was like, "I bet I could just put a breakpoint at every connection so when that callback happens, I can know exactly what action spurred on this new callback to rerender," and that was something that was very new and interesting. Then of course, falling out of all this was another hyped tooling thing that I thought was really cool, not explicit to Redux, again but it got me interested because that's hot reloading. All hot reloading of CSS and Ember CLI, which I've never done design work which I'm not good at. But I do write some CSS or hack-on it when friends show me what to write. Then writing HTML was a separate experience. Once you wrote the CSS, you would hot reload in that course, what do you do every time you change CSS, you also change HTML, which would incur a full-page reload with a live reload tool, if you're familiar with that in Ember CLI. This tooling allowed the Redux store itself because it's stored the state, allow me to really throw the component away in the page without refreshing it and then providing a new one and just go rerender because the state was instantly mapped in and then rerendered. I actually did a demo sometime last year and like, "I'm going to build a star rating component and here it is with live reload. Here it is with hot reload. I'm not going to make a decision about which one is better. You decide," and overwhelmingly people were like, "This is a much nicer feedback loop to make HTML and CSS changes in real time." ROBERT: Agreed. Let's pedal back the hot module reloading because that is pure awesomeness. But that has a little bit of setup they have to do and changing your application. I remember we were talking about this. When you did that demo, I remember this. But there's a little bit they have to do to make your components stateless. They have to come down from the Redux store. TORAN: Correct and this actually still applies if you are, I think using Ember data as well, as you just can't pull the state to reload it anything local, which may go against what you're trying to do with your component. ROBERT: Right. That's cool but I do want to highlight a little bit something that was cool about the Redux dev tools as with all the state that you have since it's in a centrally managed place, you can take your state and then play it back over the top of something like if it did live reload and it'll just pop you right back down to where you were when you were debugging. When that page refresh happens, if you're not doing hot module reloading, you still won't lose all your state which is really cool. You just play it right back down on top and you're exactly where you were before. It's almost like you would throw a specific test that puts you into that state that you're trying to debug. TORAN: Yes, it's like git rebase. It lets me pull off my state, replay the new component function and then drop my changes on top of it and see it all viewed together. ROBERT: Yeah, I think that's massively powerful. CHARLES: Yeah, it is fantastic and that's where you get into that power. I can get on my immutability soapbox. But it turns out that as programmers, we deal in information and not throwing information away, not just flushing it down the toilet is hugely powerful. I think the thing that's so fantastic is that Redux takes this concept and then all of the tools to leverage it are there for you. I think that it is something that is missing from the Ember development story and people don't realize that it's missing, that we have all these wonderful tools, we have this conventional way of building our applications, of deploying our applications, of rendering our applications, of marshalling the data in our applications in the form of routes. But what we're lacking is this unified atomically based state management solution. I think that, Toran it's been fantastic that you have pioneered this and trying to bring what I see as a glaring gap in the developer experience to the community. I'm curious then to ask you what do you see as the future. You know, 2.0 just dropped and there's this need. I feel very strongly that Ember 3.0, 4.0 or Ember 'dot future' at some point should have a unified state management solution. How do you see the road that you're on intersecting with that future if it does in fact exist? ROBERT: Also how can I help or how can we help? TORAN: Just real brief before I dive into some of those questions. I just want to mention that 2.0, as awesome as that sounds, of course I dropped that this morning just so we could say that on podcast, really. We've had a beta in the works for Ember. The only change really, if you're like, "I just got into an Ember-Redux last week. Is it all garbage?" No, this isn't Ryan Florence 2.0 -- it was a joke for any [inaudible] router folks in here. Actually, just us removing Browserify because if you are familiar with Browserify in the Ember ecosystem, talk to Robert Jackson or Stef Penner, folks familiar with that in Broccoli, they'll tell you that one of the harder things to optimize and although, it created a great entry point to how do I use Redux? Boom! Ember Browserify, install Redux, I'm done. If you've ever seen an [inaudible] in Ember that has 'npm:', you're using Ember Browserify to pull in, either a common JS module or some kind of node module and use that in the Ember ecosystem without an additional shim. Now, what we found or learned was that bigger teams that are using this, paid a little bit of a cost and not just cold rebuilds. I'm talking hot rebuilds because Browserify just isn't friendly to get those to be optimized, I guess is the word, so we removed it completely or just use some smaller simpler shims. You actually get the performance improvements hopefully -- ROBERT: That is awesome. TORAN: -- Which is big win. Back to your question, Charles. The audience that's intended, of course is a little different than most people like me to talk about. In fact, the API itself, I think was a bit rejected. You're sort of asking like, "What does this mean in the future?" I don't really feel that the traditional Ember audience has picked up around with it because of something that's missing. You said the 'C word' earlier so convention is certainly still missing from this and even in the React ecosystem, they're just barely thinking about, "Look at all this great stuff we can do with one-way data flow and immutability and functional programming," but guess what we're giving up. No one's really come around with this perfect pattern and conventionalized it as Ember did in its early days so there's a lot of churn, I wouldn't say overly so much that you're not going to getting work done but more than the average Ember developer is aware of. My audience is actually not the average Ember developer, which may be bad for what you're asking about, Charles. Instead, it's actually the person who maybe has done React and maybe Redux or Backbone in the last two years. They love some of those patterns. They're not in love with the Ember-object because of getting set. Maybe they love TypeScript and they say, "I want to use this in Ember." They joined a new company that's a little larger than the startup they'd been on the last two years and they are using Ember. They love a lot of Ember but they would also like to use some of the predictable state patterns that you get with Redux. As well as maybe the dev tooling, things like that so they have adopted this. I feel like that really is the new audience that I aim to please or I'm falling in line with, which is a little bit outside. I feel like there's room for some fragmentation and a good beat up on me for that because when the realities of this herd conversation that we're kind of talking around a little bit is that the herd is great until something innovative needs to happen. Innovation, obviously takes some risk and I feel like that's sort of what I did last year and said, "Here's some interesting ideas. I have not shipped Facebook with it yet so let's just check this out." Of course, Ember add-ons are a great way to enable someone to try a new idea. But I think most people got into it, saw this funky connect thing and they're like, "What the heck is this?" It's a function and returns a component. All right, that's not doing that so most people bailed out. But I do hope people still and I know great folks at LinkedIn, Chris [inaudible], of course. We chat occasionally. Mostly he just tells me what I'm doing wrong. Shout out for Chris. But he knows a lot more about some of the stuff than I do and I think he is fully aware of the values that are in Redux that are great and then working hard, of course during his full time gig to apply these to Ember data and hopefully these do make their way in naturally. I just wanted to be a bit more radical. I don't want to wait around and I wasn't really involved in the Ember data project. My own fault there but I think if nothing else, the ideas will come out of it because the developers want this. Whether you're the audience I'm talking about, which is a React developer from two years ago, you're in Ember, you're eventually going to really understand and want this and then those 'data down, action up' ideas that were pretty unclear to me in 2015, will be very clear. In fact, if anyone seen or heard of this Project MobX, which is like an alternative in a way, popularity-wise to React ecosystem. It kind of looks like Ember in a way where you get sort of some more magic and what I found quickly in playing around MobX is that you can very much fall into the shared mutable state problems. The interesting part about MobX is you can opt into a strict 'data down, actions up' approach. But if you don't have the Ember battle scars like we do, you're just going to come in and say, "What's less work?" Just like in Ember when I can do a set in the [inaudible] node, why would I do 'data down, actions up' and that's the transition I want to see folks make. Hopefully they learn something from that. CHARLES: Right, I agree with you. Although, I think the time has definitely come, I think the term 'herd-mentality' is an unfortunate one. I prefer to think of it as like a pack. If you travel as a pack, you can bring down moose that are bigger than you are individually. But every once in a while, like a gigantic moose with laser horns shows up and then what are you going to do? If you're hunting as a pack, you have to introduce new things because I like that analogy a little bit better than a herd because the job of the herd is just to not get eaten, where is the pack has this idea of these entities that have to stick together. They're hunting and they're tackling different problems as they come but sharing in the benefits. But I think that there has to be room for innovation inside that herd/pack-mentality, whatever you choose. I do think this idea needs to be introduced so what I would say is that if you're listening to this podcast, you should actually go and you should try and use Toran's add-on and you should try and build something with it so that if you have opinions about how it should fit into Ember, then we can hear them. It sounds like you're taking a minimalist approach, you're emulating patterns that are proven to work in the React community so kind of enabling that seed cross-pollination right there. I would say go build something with it, experience what it's like to have your state as a single atom, experience what it's like to have incredible development tools that come along with that. I think that if you're in the Ember community today, you need to go build something with React, you need to go build something with Redux and you actually have made it one step easier to do. You don't even have to leave Ember to do that. You can build something of node with production quality code using Redux and you can experience what it's like. That's my challenge, I think to the Ember community. Go try it, go experience it because you'll come back, I think like I did. You'll come back with superpowers just from having tried that. ROBERT: Managing state becomes so easy. TORAN: Yes. I want to jump in briefly and just cover one point that we haven't talked about that's very controversial so why not drop it at the end here. I think, Rob you might have asked about it earlier and I just didn't feel brave enough to talk about it at that time. But you guys keep going back to this idea and I have to talk about a little bit too. One of the motivations is I live in Iowa. I work in Texas. Thankfully, this great company, Q2 employs me and I don't know why I'm being paid. I'm lucky to be writing JavaScript for money, probably we all are. But in the Ember local community that I'm in, a very little folks writing Ember and that was even years ago. I was like the only voice in the middle of the Midwest screaming and then folks in Minnesota would tell me that wasn't true so I went up there and did a conference as well. But for the most part, I looked around the job market too and thought, "It be really great if I understand some of the more JavaScript-centric parts of building web apps today," and when I looked at Redux functional programming, the way the reducer worked and structured, the way to React-Redux project was structured and thought, "I bet I could emulate that an Ember," such that I could actually and I believe this is to be true, that if you were in a React-Redux project or even an Angular like ‘ngRedux', which is a very similar connect binding, you could copy a whole directory of your reducer code, which is all vanilla JavaScript. If you're doing generators, which we didn't talk about but if you're doing you know any additional side effects, you copy all that vanilla JavaScript, drop it into your Ember app and it all works because it doesn't matter if it's in React or Ember or even Angular, even View if View has some connect API like this. We all share this common API that is just give me the functions that enumerate over the data and return new states of the data and call back to rerender. There's something really powerful about that but the tradeoff being there are not a lot of strong conventions, Charles that I have adopted. That's kind of what I'm cautioning here a little bit is that I'm still also just watching the other communities to see what eventually turns out not. This is going to be am Ember add-on and I don't care what everyone else is doing. This is my vision because really my vision was to make a drop in for anyone already doing Redux on any platform. CHARLES: You know, to the point, there's a pack that extends beyond the Ember community and it sounds like you're also leveraging and being a part of that. TORAN: There's an interesting idea about the hunger thing, which just tied us in and there's where the fourth thing that a doctor will tell you to get your hunger back is go experience eating with other people. There's actually a statistic that when you sit down to eat with someone else or many people, you're likely going to eat 44% more food than you did on your own. That's just, I guess a statistic that's true. I just made it up for this podcast. No, I think it's true. If that is the case, then I think that very much translates to programming as well where when I'm developing code with other folks and I'm on like the React channel and we're just talking about vanilla JavaScript, it doesn't have to be me being an Ember developer anymore, which has been a large part of what's blocked me from being, I think an asset in my local community in the broader JavaScript community. At large is every time I get a conversation it's like, "I have to do it the Ember way," and that's changing actually. The Ember has credit a lot of deprecation if you guys have seen or follow the RCs and other just Ember upgrade deprecation. We're kind of getting away from being Ember and writing just more JavaScript and even maybe sometime this year beginning ES6 classes, instead of Ember object extend. I think Ember is heading in that direction. I just went there, rather rapidly because I also was again experiencing vanilla JavaScript with other communities, View and React. ROBERT: I think we're walking on this very similar path. I'm following your footsteps right now, it sounds like. TORAN: My last point which was that third bullet about building component trees, it didn't sound like either of you guys really contest that and I'm friends with, obviously Chris Freeman, formerly The Frontside and Chris tells me, "You're trying to build full component trees once you're injected at the route level and you're not doing like a ton of HTML in your controller HPS files." Is that true? CHARLES: We treat our controller basically as a component. Sometimes, we'll be like, "This is the controller and if we ever use it in more than one place, we'll take out its component." We're not super dogmatic but we definitely see the clear separation of the route is for maintaining the data and everything else is just one tree of components just below that. ROBERT: The more I think about it though, I'm so conflicted because I really like routes in Ember and they do a lot for you. I like having the data be maintained in one spot but I don't know a single store with Redux maintaining that and using like Redux-thunk or Redux-saga. I got some exploring to do. CHARLES: I don't think those are mutually exclusive propositions. That's what you were saying at the beginning, right Toran? You still do all of your data munching in the route. There's two kind of subjects that I wanted to broach briefly, although I don't think brief is possible with them is actions, like how we talked about data down, we talked about where you draw the seams in your application, where you're loading your data, where you're mapping it to your components and having that separation into your presentation components. We didn't get to talk about reducers so much and how you map. You touched on it like the mechanics but suppose I have a to-do list and I want to delete an item and I've got some button to delete an item, that's down my component tree. How do I map that action back up to the store? I don't know if we actually have time to cover that because it is meaty-meaty subject. ROBERT: Redux part two? TORAN: Yeah, we have to follow up because really that is a little bit more of an advanced segment not that folks shouldn't hear about it. But one thing that's a radical shift, Charles that we would have to go into and talk about, which is controversial as well as most folks want to operate in one structure, one dictionary not in the array. Then immediately, everything flips to being a Lodash operation. I didn't really use Lodash at all until I got into this. You guys probably actually are smart folks to do. But for me, this store is not in array now. When I'm doing array operations like remove or filter, I'm actually operating with Lodash on an object to produce those new states and most of it is just learning the Lodash operators because I didn't actually know them so the Yelp Clone that I have out there is a very simplistic look at using Lodash with Ember. But it accomplishes some of that. Then also, the secondary piece that would also consume a ton of time that we should go into but maybe not today is switching from Thunk to Generators with Saga and then maybe even observables with RxJS, which seems like possibly the future. Those all sounds cool but I think they're going to blow the heck out of scope on this thing. CHARLES: All right. Well, thank you so much for coming by Toran. As always, our conversations are too big to fit into a single podcast. I really want to have you on again. There are so many things that we haven't even touched on. We haven't touched on the subtleties of how action dispatching works. We haven't touched on using Ember-data -- I'm just [inaudible] out there and say it. With Redux, we haven't open that can of worms and who doesn't want to just sift through a can of worms on a podcast? We are going to have you on again. I am positive of that. ROBERT: We're going to paint that bike shed. CHARLES: Yeah, we're going to paint that bike shed. It's a bike shed that needs to be painted. It's something that the community, I think needs to face head on. Thank you so much for coming by and talking with us about Ember-Redux. Everybody, go and check it out. Toran, you've got some talks coming up, if you want to mention those real quick. TORAN: Yeah, I just wanted to plug. There's possibly going to be a talk, we're still lining up the official date with the Washington DC Ember Meetup sometime in April. I planning out to fly out there actually and give this talk on Ember-Redux. I want to thank just publicly the RSA team for kind of helping sponsor me to fly out and check it out. As well as give a more in-depth talk on Ember-Redux in the Meetup setting. CHARLES: Fantastic. If you're in the area, be sure to go check that out. If not, watch it on video and then unrelated Ember-Redux, if you haven't watched Toran's EmberConf talk on Outside-In development. TORAN: That's out actually global Ember Meetup, I think. CHARLES: Okay, that one. Actually, just go watch all Toran's talks. The thing that I didn't mention at the beginning of the podcast is that you do a lot of live coding, which is just makes my bowels freeze when I think about doing it. You just pull it off so effortlessly so it's definitely, definitely worth a watch. With that we, will take it out. We'll see you guys later. That's it from The Frontside. Remember to get in touch with us at Frontside.io. If you're interested in UI, that's engineered to make UX dreams come true.

Baby MommaAnna and Hughes cleaning out Edith’s room after the fire, find a picture of a small childTim Drewe suggests Edith be Marigold’s godmother - sort of. Mrs. Drewe doesn’t look very pleased.Edith asks Robert if she can “take an interest” in Marigold.Get Away With YouThe committee/village is trying to find the best place for the memorial. Robert says center of the village, but they want somewhere quiet: the old cricket pit.Hughes agrees with Robert - memorial should be in town. Carson: I was disappointed in his Lordship, but I’m more disappointed in you. Hughes: Every relationship has its ups and downs.Carson to Hughes: I don’t like it when we’re not on the same side. Hughes: We’re different people. We can’t always agree. C: I know, but I don’t like it. A widow convinces Carson about the memorial site. Her son pays respects to her husband on their day.Carson tells Hughes he decided on the village for the memorial. He only wanted to be convinced. His walk convinced him. Carson: There’s a bonus. It puts us back in agreement. I’m not comfortable when you and I are not in agreement.Hughes: You’re very flattering. You talk like that, you make me want to check the looking glass to make sure my hair is tidy. Carson: Get away with you.Hughes: I mean it.Stop Flirting with the DogMary says she’s going away with Annabelle Portsmith to drive around.Anna tells Mary to choose clothes carefully that she won’t need help taking off. Mary: Well, I’ll have his help. Anna nervous about if they call Lady Portsmith.Anna: Honestly, m’lady. You should hope I never write my memoir.Mary asks Anna to buy contraception.Blake is coming before Mary leaves.At the shop, Anna takes off her glove to reveal that she’s married.She lets a gentleman go first. Points to what she needs in the book. The shop keeper gives her a hard time. “I can see you’re married. But you don’t want any more children. There’s always abstinence.” Anna pays quickly and leaves without instructions.  Bates asks Anna why she’s not going with Mary.Anna says it seems unfair that they treated her like that at the shop. Suppose she was a working woman with 8 kids and isn’t want any more. Wouldn’t I have the right? I feel like going back and ordering a baker’s dozen. Mary: One’s enough for now.Blake tells Mary she should have told him he wasn’t the lucky winner. Mary: Well, I don’t seem to have broken your heart. I’m sorry if I’ve hurt you. It’s only lately that I’ve begun coming out of the mist. Blake: That’s why I came here. To wish you luck in person.Brixton is flirting with Cora.Cora showing Simon painting. Robert sees them.Blake tells Mary to be sure before she makes a decision. But that she is cleverer than Gillingham, and that won’t work anymore in this century.Mary says she’s not a housemaid drooling over him. Blake says Plantagenets are as susceptible as housemaids when it comes to sex.Mary tells Anna she wants to marry again, and she absolutely does not want to divorce. Her grandparents lived in vast quarters, but things are going to be closer for her. She wants to be sure she wants Gillingham as a friend, lover and husband.Stirring the PotClarkson tells Isobel about insulin.DC: I’m glad you’re back to your old interests.Clarkson: Why do you say that?DC: Mrs. Crawley’s been distracted lately.Isobel: You make too much of it. DC: Do I?Mama PatmorePatmore asks Rose to ask Sarah Bunting if she would tutor Daisy.Sarah agrees to tutor Daisy.Robert: So every time we entertain, we must invite this Tin Pot Rosa Luxenbourg?Sarah turns down dinner because she doesn’t want to put herself or Robert through another test of strength. She tells Branson he may have been in Rome too long. “You can do anything you want if you put your mind to it.” She tells him he can’t have a future there with those people. He tells Robert she couldn’t stay, and he says, “What a relief.”Mary: I have a feeling Branson is turning back into who he really is. What will happen with Sibby? Branson can’t stay there.Robert says that Tom is a ventriloquist dummy. Cora: If he feels he has to go… Robert: He’s not taking Sibby.Mopey MoleslyMolesly asks if he is first footman now that Jimmy is gone. Hughes tells him there’s coming a time when a house will not boast any footmen. We’re coming to the end of those distinctions. Carson: You are first, second, third and last. Make what you will of it.Thomas tells Molesly that Baxter is a thief.Baxter tells Molsely that she was a common thief.Baxter tells Molsely she’s changed. And she won’t tell Molesly who she was working with. Baxter: I’d give a limb to rewrite that whole chapter of my life.What’s Rose For?Robert says a wireless (radio) is a fad, and it won’t last.Rose is talking about helping the Russians. Robert says Bunting would have lectured them. Branson defends her.Rose tells Robert that the king is speaking on the wireless. He can’t believe her.Robert: If the king wants to use the wireless to speak to his people, maybe we have to listen. Carson: I wouldn’t say that.Daisy: Why is it called a wireless when there are so many wires?Hughes: Downton is catching up with the times we live in. Carson: That is exactly what I am afraid of.CliffhangerThomas brings in a policeman to see Carson. Announces it. Carson: Thank you, Mr. Barrow. Your scaremongering has not succeeded. That will be all. Thank you.The policeman tells them that a witness has turned up that has to do with Mr. Green’s death.Dowager Countess' LinesDC: I’m glad you’re back to your old interests.Clarkson: Why do you say that?DC: Mrs. Crawley’s been distracted lately. With Lord Murton frisking around her skirts and getting in the way.Isobel: You make too much of it. DC: Do I?Isobel: Maybe you’re the real quarry. And he’s only including me to throw off the scent.DC: I may be older than I was, but I can still tell when a man is interested.Clarkson tries to change the subject to gardens.DC: The promise of gardens in the summer will be the final worm on the hook.Isobel: Hearing the king’s voice makes him more real.DC: Is that a good thing? The monarchy has thrived on magic and mystery. Strip that away, and people may think the royal family is just like us.Isobel: Would that be so wrong? DC: Well, only if they want to stay at Buckingham Palace.

Members of the UCSF Brewers Guild (Yug Varma, Kenton Hokanson, Ryan Dalton, Scott Hansen, and Rober Schiemann) discuss the science of beer making.TranscriptSpeaker 1: Spectrum's next. Speaker 2: [inaudible].Speaker 3: Welcome [00:00:30] to spectrum the science and technology show on k a l x Berkeley, a biweekly 30 minute program bringing you interviews featuring bay area scientists and technologists. Speaker 4: Good afternoon. I'm Rick Karnofsky, the host of today's show. Today we're talking about the science of Beer with UCF brewers guild members. You've Varma, Kenton, Hawkinson, Ryan Dalton, Scott Hansen, and Robert Shimon. Can you guys please introduce yourselves and say what your research focuses on? Speaker 5: [00:01:00] Hi, I'm Yogi. I am a post doc and I studied the human microbiome. We study bacteria associated with the human body. Speaker 6: I'm Kenton. I'm a Grad student and I said he synapses and the regulations. Mostly I am concerned with homeostasis and the idea is if you perturb one half of us in attic pair, then the other half somehow recognizes this and quickly adapts itself to maintain normal neuronal function. Speaker 1: I'm Ryan, I'm a graduate student in neuroscience [00:01:30] and I study the olfactory system. My name is Scott Hansen. I'm a graduate student and the questions I've been interested in are how cells interpret signals from their environment. Being a biochemist, I tried to understand how the proteins at the cellular level are being rearranged and forming different complexes to produce shape changes. My name is Robert Shimon. I'm a first year graduate student. I'm setting bioinformatics and uh, I got into brewing beer as an undergrad. When that [00:02:00] my hobbies, I kind of start doing something and I get completely obsessed with it. So I, at first I was, uh, didn't drink beer at all or didn't drink any alcohol and then, uh, had my first taste of beer and then decided within a couple of months that I'd start brewing and haven't looked back ever since. Cool. Speaker 5: Scott, can you please explain what the ucs F brewers guild is? Speaker 1: The UCSI brewers guild was founded by myself and Michael Schulty and Colin does more about three years ago. So we decided to just hang [00:02:30] out every month and just talk about the beer that we were making. Shortly after that, I joined forces with some people at linkedin laboratories and a the Soma San Francisco and they provided a venue for us to start having biannual beer brewing festivals.Speaker 5: Youth, how do we get beer? So beer is a holy confluence of hops, east malted barley or malted grains [00:03:00] and water. In fact, there is an ancient beer law [inaudible] which is the earliest consumer protection law and that says that beer must be only malted barley and hops and water. At that time. They of course did not know that east made beer. That discovery was made by Pester in the late 18 hundreds but essentially that's what beer is. Can you explain to us Robert? So the majority of grains used in brewering are malted grains. [00:03:30] And so what that means is basically after the grain has been harvested, it's taken, it's soaked in water, are allowed to absorb a certain amount of water and then allowed to germinate. And then once it reaches a certain stage of germination, it's roasted too to help germination and prevent the the seed from converting all of the starches into simple sugars. Speaker 5: But it's allowed to germinate long enough such that it produces the enzymes next necessary for the conversion of the starches into the sugars or the other reasons to get out these simple sugars. Some of these simple sugars are available [00:04:00] to the yeast right at the end. The chief reason why some of these start just have to be converted to sugar is because the next step is to roast them. Right? And the roasting process stops the germination, but it also causes a lot of the mired reactions to occur. The different flavors that you get from Malter because of two reactions. One is caramelization, which is just a sugar caramelizing, which gives you the Tophi sort of, you know, sweet caramel flavors. The other is the mired reaction, which will give you anything from bready to bread [00:04:30] CROs to nutty Biscotti chocolaty coffee. You know, that's the progression of flavors depending on how long euros and how dark the roast is. Speaker 5: And so for the Meyer reactions, of course you need amino acids or some nitrogen source and then you need the simple sugar because if you have the complex starch, all it'll do is burn. You're listening to the spectrum on Calex I'm talking to with the UCS have brewers guild. Now, is it fair to say that a lot of the difference in flavor that you get is from this malting process and this roasting process or do you get [00:05:00] differences based on where the multis grown or that kind of barley used for the malt? The variety of multi is important. The where it was grown I think less so. There's two row barley and there's six rolled barley. So two row barley has a lot more enzymes but very little sugar and six roll barleys the opposite. So you want some Touro barley to provide all the enzymes during mashing to break down the starches. Speaker 5: But you need some starches around six row malt is added to just get the heft [00:05:30] of the sugar in and are non barley and grains molted both that took, some are rice is not because rice is just a ton of simple fermentable sugars. Wheat is and Rye. Yes it is oatmeal. No. Okay. Um, you consider that's a non barley. That's a good point. Um, well you can roast oatmeal at home. I don't know if the oats, you get a roasted [inaudible] you get, [00:06:00] it would not be roasted, but people do toast it in their oven. Oh yeah. And that again, there's a little in my yard magic and gives you some roasted oatmeal flavors. So Kenton, the next process is to boil the granite, is that right? Speaker 6: Grain carries it inside of, it kind of starts as like a stored energy source. And what we do as brewers is buy grain that has all this starch. We crush it up and then soak it in water that activates a bunch of enzymes, [00:06:30] which are just little machines that chop up these starches into sugars. A ton of thought and work goes into just turning those starches into sugar using nothing but water at the appropriate temperatures and then flushing it out and we try to flush out as much of the sugar as possible. And then we've made sugary water that also has other compounds from the barley that gives a different characteristics. And then we just will, we boil it and he did that to sterilize it. And also it gives you an opportunity to add things that flavor. It's southern most common [00:07:00] of those obviously as hops. Speaker 6: And when you boil hops, they UI summarize an acid inside of them that turns the the sugar water, which we call wart more bitter. And that's also a time when you can add other things. Coffee, beans, fruit. And what's the spice that we often use? Corn Polo. Oh yeah. We used to the peppers a yeah. Of Coriander. Um, it gives you a chance to dump in anything you like that will influence how the, the final product tastes or if you dump it in right at the very end how it smells. [00:07:30] And so once you've boiled it for as long as you want to, you cool it as quickly as possible trying to keep it from being contaminated by any of the bugs that float around in the air. And then you dump in yeast, which love the sugar that you've put into the water. And so they will just go crazy for a few weeks fermenting when they ferment, they produce CO2 and alcohol and that turns the wart into a beer. Speaker 5: And Ryan does the boiling process change the malt in other ways. Speaker 7: You drive [00:08:00] where it called my yard reactions, which are reactions between diverse sugar molecules and the diverse short proteins and amino acids that occur in the beer. These reactions are essentially a linking of these two molecules and because you, you're creating a very heterogeneous set of compounds, you have a flavor that is very complex and it's very hard to replicate without actually boiling this set of ingredients together. Speaker 2: [inaudible]Speaker 8: [00:08:30] you're listening to spectrum on Calex Berkeley memories at the ucs after his guild are discussing the chemical conversions at the solutions of multi barley and hops and their analysis of homebrewing data [inaudible] Speaker 1: so Robert, let's talk about hops. Actually, one trend that I kind [00:09:00] of think is pretty cool and interesting on the technology side of things is that some breweries are using now it's called a super critical hop extracts packet tube full of hops. You pressurize it with CO2 on one end and all of the hot oils are kind of forced out and you're left with all the vegetable matter in the tube and you have all kinds of those. Nice, wonderful, rich oils left out of it. These breweries have taken to using these superhero hop extracts to kind of reduce their losses and beer and also kind of just increase the amount of hot oils you can get into beer and how do we get new hot varieties [00:09:30] and some understanding of how new for hot varieties arise is that they had this group up at Oregon State University. They breed new hops, get different hop varieties, try brewing beers with these new hop varieties, see if they taste good. If they taste good, they'll distribute them to breweries for them to experiment with. If the breweries like them, then they'll become kind of mainstays and you hops propagate by a rhizome. Speaker 5: Yeah, it propagates by Rhizome, which is actually a route modification under the ground and so it's very easy to swap rhizomes with someone who's growing hops and grow your [00:10:00] own because rhizomes are super hardy. They grow in binds, which are essentially creepers and their stem has this super velcro material, which is great to play around with. You just stick it on anything that has a fiber and it'll just latch on it. It's very, very tough. And anyone who's grown this will attest to it. They're really hard to get rid of once you've had them in for a year or so in your garden. Super Tunnel. Yeah. And they grow super tall and they grow super fast. Uh, you're a newly growing hop. Bine will [00:10:30] grow up to, I've heard a foot a day, which is kind of boggling, but I, I have seen it grow several inches a day. Speaker 5: Wow. Well, my hops will probably start a blooming in July or August and they're usually ripened by September or October depending on the season. Initially they're these green almost line green or, or darker green upside down sort of papery chandelier's. Uh, they look very [00:11:00] delicate and beautiful and when they're wet, they're kind of soft to the touch. But when they dry out, they get slightly more Brown and get papery and they have a kind of pollen that you can, that sort of rubs on your fingers. And when they get papery and dry, that's when the oils and the mature, and that's when you're supposed to harvest them. Even at that stage, they're usually a little wet, so you need to dry them. Air Drying is preferred over a oven drying over [00:11:30] the lowest possible temperature setting because obviously oven drying will get a lot more of the volatiles out of the house. Speaker 5: And what does this air drying process do? It just takes the water out. The air drying, partly matures the oils and it removes the grassy flavor because if you ever use wet hops in your beer, it'll taste like a mouthful of grass. The alpha acid that is often talked about by homebrewers is chiefly Humu loan, which is a fluoro all [00:12:00] derivative. And that I summarizes when you boil it into ISO alpha acids. Now, Humu alone on its own is not very soluble, but when you boil it, it gets more soluble. So you actually extract it. It also gets more bitter. The bitterness of course is a little, it gives a little bit of a stringency, which is bracing. But uh, more importantly, uh, hops is the chief antibacterial compound in beer. It Ma, it helps massively [00:12:30] to prevent spoilage. Hops are actually a soporific, right? They are. They're estrogenic. And, um, in fact, one of the, um, other things that I'm going to use them for is make hop pillows, just stuffed them into pillows and uh, apparently they help you sleep at night. Yeah. Speaker 7: This is spectrum. We're talking with the UCF brewers guild. Ryan, does water chemistry matter? The historical example that everyone always cites is the beers that come out of Burton on Trent versus the beers that come out of Dublin. The beer that comes out of Dublin is black and you know, you wonder [00:13:00] why it's black. It's great. You know, perhaps is not black because the, the people of Ireland, uh, enjoy a dark beer. It's, it's black because the water chemistry necessitates that. And the reason that is is because these enzymes that are converting starches to sugars during your mash depend on Ph and barley that it has been roasted for different amounts of time, have different effects on the acidity of your mash water. In Dublin where the water is quite basic, it needs to be acidified by a dark malt, which has a strong [00:13:30] power to acidify water to bring it into the range where these enzymes are active. Whereas if you have water that is already without adjustment at that Ph range, you do not need to to use dark malts and you can create a a lighter beer. I incidentally, the tap water in San Francisco is really good for a pretty diverse range of styles. And why is there water so good? Speaker 6: That's very low on minerals. So it gives you a lot of flexibility to add the minerals you want. It comes a little basic to begin with. So we often [00:14:00] add minerals to our mash to lower the Ph, but it'll, it'll turn out most things we, yeah, there like Florida where my sister lives, the water is cell-free and I don't think you could even brew with it. You know, one of the parameters that will affect how your, your beer tastes in the end is this sulfur to chloride ratio. And I don't think you could add enough chloride there. It's disgusting. So you know, in San Francisco we are, Speaker 5: this is actually funny because usually most a [00:14:30] beer book say, Oh, you know, you should worry about the chloride content of your water because water is chlorinated in most municipal water supplies and [inaudible]. Speaker 7: So do you use regular tap water then or do you filter it in some way reverse osmosis or buy distilled water? Speaker 6: A lot of people will cut their water with distilled water or reverse osmosis water to reduce the mineral content. Not Necessary, at least in San Francisco or anyone who gets their water from Hetch Hetchy, which is sort of a natural filter. So we don't, we don't [00:15:00] cut our water with anything. We add minerals to it for almost every brew [inaudible]. Speaker 5: So I, I started d chlorinating my water with Campton tablets. Do you guys do the same? Do you think that's necessary? I started using a, a sorbic acid, just vitamin C, which basically has the same thing as a Campton tablets. But honestly, I haven't noticed any flavor differences in my beard since I've started. Speaker 6: The San Francisco water report has the chloride content and it's not extraordinarily high. Yeah. So it's probably not a bad thing to do, but it's not necessary. [00:15:30] Yeah. Speaker 5: Yeah. In fact, one of the best ways of removing clothing from water register boil it boil for 15 minutes and you're pretty much getting rid of all the chlorine. So do you think that in the process of boiling all of the sugar and the wart that's equivalent to pre boiling water? I would say so. Uh, especially by the time it hits, I mean, or rather the heat, the yeast hits the work. Um, you're probably clear if a lot of, or [00:16:00] all the clothing that you should basically be worrying about would have just dissipated. Another way of getting rid of clothing is just, just pour water into a pot and just leave it out for hours and hours. So boiling is much more fast and efficient. Is it evaporating? It is. It's available tile. Um, and you know, it just, uh, it ds as the water is, that's what it does. Speaker 5: It just drives all the gasses dissolved gases from the water. The only problem is that that doesn't work for chloramines. So yeah, you can convert the chloramines [00:16:30] into chlorine by adding Campton tablets or a little bit of Campton tablet or a little bit of a citric acid or sorbic acid and then that'll convert into chlorine. And then either through boiling or letting it sit out, the chlorine will evaporate. Yeah. But I mean, I frankly love San Francisco water out of the tap is delicious to drink it. It's really one of the tastiest, sort of an unprocessed waters that I haven't drunk. Speaker 4: What kind of minerals do you add and why? Speaker 6: So we mostly add calcium [00:17:00] chloride and calcium sulfate. We, we basically drive the Ph as low as we can until our mineral additions get excessive. And we just feel like we're making it hard and stupid. Speaker 2: [inaudible]Speaker 4: you are listening to spectrum on k a l x Berkeley. We're talking about the science involved in beer making with members of the [00:17:30] UC Sir Gurus Guild. Kenton. If a person were to just start homebrewing, what do you think is the most important thing that they pay attention to? Speaker 6: I think temperature that is both really important and also one of the things that you get classically terrible advice about. Get a good thermometer. [00:18:00] If you're going to invest in one thing that doesn't come into standard brew kit, Speaker 5: you should consider what the temperature is in your house. You should have thermometers in different places in your house. Figure out what temperature is. If it's 90 degrees in the middle of the summer, you're not bro-ing okay. Unless you have a refrigerator. So, so just the temperature is think about what type of beer you want to make and then you know, brew with the seasons. I think that's the best way to do it. Speaker 6: Ryan, what kind of data [00:18:30] do you record when you're brewing? Speaker 7: We have a really good time brewing. You hear people say all the time that brewing is both art and science, right? In our brewing process and in our brewing theory, the art is in the exploration, but the science is sort of in making sure that we can get back to where we've been Speaker 6: for people. Like I think all of us in the room who are like probably unhealthily obsessed with data and getting it consistent and [00:19:00] being in control. Maybe the biggest obstacle to brewing and getting satisfaction from it was the terrible information that's available on the Internet. When you have a question that you want to answer to and you've just go out into the world looking for it, then some of the information is old and some of it is just like willfully wrong where someone has made the decision and like posted authoritatively about it and they're just wrong. Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean if you Google something and you get your answer from Yahoo Answers, then it's wrong. Right? [00:19:30] But that's basically what you're dealing with when you, when you Google something about beer recipes that no one followed up on, uh, ideas that people have a misinformation pass from one person to another with complete, uh, authoritative tone. Speaker 6: Yeah. So we started pulling together some things. I mean a lot of brewing is has been studied. I mean the breweries know everything and then we, homebrewers are sort of trying to like figure certain things out what we, on what parameters predict deficiency and everything. And so we started pulling together all the formulas, [00:20:00] everything into one place. So we keep track when we brew, we record things like our gravity's, which is the a measure the density of the water, which is a measure of how much is dissolved in the water. And we mostly worry about that being sugar. We feed that in a largely sugar depending on the way we mashed. Uh, so we record our gravity's and we record the lengths the durations are Boyle and things like that. And then we plug it all into what's been an excel sheet, [00:20:30] just a huge excel sheet that we call the beer gulay tricks. Speaker 6: And it basically builds predictions for us. Like we plug in our brewing plan and it will tell us things like the color and the bitterness, the volume that we should get out of it, how strong it should be in the end, how much it should cost to brew the diastolic power. Right. That the same or different as, as you were saying, different grains have a different amount of enzymes but that's sort of known in a rough way. And so it'll tell [00:21:00] you whether you have sufficient grain that will, you know, power you through the mashing step, things like that. And so we put it all in one place, which is online as well. It will be soon to be real metrics. And so you mentioned that you calculate the costs of brewing beer. Speaker 1: Is that mainly just you geeking out or do you, is this really a decision point Speaker 6: whether you brew a beer or not amount? It's not a decision. So we basically want to triumph [inaudible] [00:21:30] the turning point, right? The main thing we look at is our efficiency. And so then we like have a beer that we produced that we love and then we just want to try to make it better. And one thing we can use is like if we're more efficient than it costs less to brew the beer. And that's exciting, but we would never buy less green. Let's save money on it. Speaker 1: So for the wine making industry, they [inaudible] digital refractometers as gravity changes the refractive index of the liquid with which the gravity is changing also changes. And so when you, as the refractive index changes, if you [00:22:00] place this on the surface of a prism, the critical angle of light passing through this prism also changes. And so you can basically place a liquid sample on a prism ShineLight through the prism. And then from that you can kind of backward compute what the gravity of the liquid sitting on the prism is. And so what I'm hoping trying to do once I get a little bit of free time after I'm done with rotations in classes, my first year is to build, is to build a floating sensor that'll sit in my beer, give me real time temperature and gravity measurements with this little prison system. So [00:22:30] if any of you guys have any experience building, stuff like that, I'd love some help this summer. Scott and anyone else, what kind of advice do you have for aspiring homebrewers? One thing I often see with homebrewers is that they're so attached to their beers. The first batch of beer I made, Speaker 5: I dunno if I want to like give it out. Holding onto that beer is pointless. The only way that you're going to get good at brewing beer is taking chances and just and just going for it. So the process is [00:23:00] just extremely robust. It's very difficult to make a bad beer so you can invest at any level you like. We like to, to really geek out and, and understand it. We were obsessed with controlling it, but you don't need to do that to make beer. If you can cook, you can make beer. Homebrewers are the most genial, open, convivial fellows I have ever met. They don't hoard recipes. Home brewers in general are some of the best people to hang out with, especially when we're brewing cause we're probably [00:23:30] at our happiest or close to. It usually consists of consuming homebrewers as well. So if you, oh, I think that's a rule. I think that was written down somewhere. So if you're not doing that, you're breaking some pretty harsh rules. Speaker 1: Well guys, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Our pleasure. Thanks. Speaker 3: And now for some science news headlines, here's Brad swift and Lisa cabbage. Speaker 9: [00:24:00] The Economist reports that Dr. David Kaplan and biomedical researcher at Tufts University who has studied silk for 22 years and devised ways to use silk and biomedical applications, has developed a new way to pack medicines into tiny silk pockets that make the medicines almost indifferent to heat boiling silkworm cocoons in sodium carbonate. Caplin separates out of protein named fibrillin. He mixes the fibro in was salt. Then mixes that solution with the medicines [00:24:30] to be preserved and spreads the results out as a film before freeze drying them. The process immobilizes the medicines molecules preventing them from unfolding and thus losing their potency. Dr Kaplan and his team demonstrated the effectiveness of their new technique by trying it out on the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine, as well as the antibiotics, tetracycline, and penicillin. The medicines when stored using this process retained 85% potency after six months at 45 degrees Celsius. The next step is to begin human testing [00:25:00] of the silk film medicines. If successful, this process will have enormous benefits for the global distribution of medicines. Currently, most medicines, including vaccines, require refrigeration to retain potency. The World Health Organization estimates that half of all vaccines produced are destroyed because refrigeration is lost at some point during distribution. Speaker 10: Science magazine reports that an international team of plant biologists working with the u s da have found that mitigating [00:25:30] climate change through carbon sequestration actually pumps more carbon into the atmosphere. Increased carbon dioxide stimulates the growth of our boosts dealer. My Corozal fun guy, a mF , a type of fungus that is often found in the roots of most land plants. Experiments were conducted in greenhouses as well as fields of wild oats, wheat and soybeans. Lay Chang post-doctorate fellow in plant science at Penn state said elevated levels of carbon dioxide increased [00:26:00] both the size of AMF colonies and decomposition. AMF colonies are found in the roots of 80% of land plant species and play a critical role in Earth's carbon cycle. The fungus receives and stores carbon. A byproduct of the plant's photosynthesis from its host plant in its long vein likes structures as the carbon transitions to the soil. The AMF triggers additional decomposition of organic carbon near the plant's root systems. This decomposition releases more [00:26:30] carbon dioxide back into the air, which means that terrestrial ecosystems may have limited capacity to haul climate change by cleaning up excessive greenhouse gases. The big fear is that this will turn the soil into a carbon source Speaker 9: rather than a carbon sink. A regular feature of spectrum is a calendar of some of the science and technology related events happening in the bay area. Over the next two weeks. Here's Brad swift and Lisa cabbage. Scott Stevens, [00:27:00] associate professor of fire sciences at the UC Berkeley College of natural resources and a past guest on spectrum will present a lecture entitled fire and Ecosystem Resiliency in California forests Thursday, September 13th from noon until 1:00 PM room one 32 in Mulford Hall on the UC Berkeley campus. The California coastal cleanup day is Saturday, September 15th from eight 30 to noon. Historically, this is the largest statewide volunteer event. The cities [00:27:30] of Berkeley and Oakland are organizing shoreline cleanups. The East Bay regional parks district is also organizing shoreline cleanups along East Bay waterways. Pick up every bit of human made debris you can find and record what you remove. Data collection is important. Your data goes into ocean conservancy's international database. Speaker 9: Used to identify the sources of debris and help devise solutions to the marine debris problem. To get involved and get more details, contact Kevin Fox at the East Bay regional [00:28:00] parks district. Patty Donald at the city of Berkeley and Brin Samuel at the city of Oakland or a search online for California Coastal Cleanup Day on September 16th from 11 to 12:00 PM the UC botanical gardens at 200 centennial drive in Berkeley will present a lecture, small space orchards growing fruit trees in small gardens, Claire and author of California fruit and vegetable gardening. We'll show you two simple techniques for growing [00:28:30] a small orchard in a typical bay area home garden. You'll learn the best fruit varieties, space saving techniques and plant and care for container grown fruit trees and much more copies of Clare's book will also be available for purchase. You must register in advance Speaker 2: [inaudible].Speaker 3: The music you [00:29:00] heard during say show was Palestine and David from his album book and Acoustic Speaker 2: [inaudible].Speaker 3: It is released under a creative Commons license version 3.0 spectrum was recorded and edited by me, Rick Karnofsky and by Brad Swift. Thank you for listening to spectrum. You're happy to hear from listeners. If you have comments about the show, please send them to us via email. Our email address is spectrum [00:29:30] dot klx@yahoo.com join us in two weeks at this same time. Speaker 2: [inaudible]Speaker 3: [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

First, you'll hear this a basic conversation at a normal speed, then at a slower speed. Next, you'll hear some practice drills. Finally, you'll hear the conversation again at a normal speed. Robert: Hi Bill. What's happening? Bill: Not much. How about you, Robert? Robert: Well, actually, I want to go to the art museum this afternoon, but I don't know where it is. Do you know where it is? Bill: Which one? There are a few art museums in Fukuoka. Robert: I want to see the Napoleon exhibit. Have you heard about it? Bill: Ah, sure. That's the Fukuoka Municipal Art Museum. It's in Ohori Park. Robert: So, how do I get there? Bill: That's easy. Just take the subway to the Ohori Park station. Walk through the park, and it's there. You can't miss it! Robert: Do you mean that I have to walk to the other side of the park to get to the musem? Bill: Yes, that's right. It doesn't take long. About ten minutes or so. Robert: OK, I think I understand. Thanks. Bill: You're welcome. Let's Practice: A: I want to buy a suit, but I don't know where to shop. Do you know a good shop? B: Yes, I like to buy suits at Fukuyama. You should go there. A: I want to bake a cake, but I don't know how. Can you help me? B: Sorry, I don't know how. You should buy a cook book. A: I want to see a dentist, but I don't know who to see. Do you know a good dentist? B: Yes, my dentist is good. I'll give you his number. Find more at www.eltpodcast.com