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On today's episode: Sitting down to wee Liam’s BOMBSHELL reveal Do you want to reveal something too? It’s a full moon but Liam didn’t notice 610 Quiz: Howl like a werewolf The wash up from Maya’s Wristband stall Liam sunk a full court shot Inviting fun guys to our party Are Adelaide accents a thing? Remember showdown doughnuts? The Friday meat tray: Strandbag Lisa See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For all those who missed out on London, see you in Miami next week!Notion, the knowledge work decacorn, has been building AI tooling since before ChatGPT, with many hits from Q&A in 2023 and unified AI in 2024 and Meeting Notes in 2025. At the end of their last Make user conference, Ryan Nystrom teased Notion 3.0's Custom Agents - and they are finally embracing the Agent Lab playbook!Sarah Sachs and Simon Last of Notion join us for a deep dive into how Notion built Custom Agents, why it took years and multiple rebuilds to get right, and what it means to turn a productivity tool into an agent-native system of record for enterprise work.We go inside the product, engineering, evals, pricing, and org design decisions behind one of the most ambitious AI product efforts in software today — from early failed tool-calling experiments in 2022 to agent harnesses, progressive tool disclosure, meeting notes as data capture, and the long-term vision for software factories and agentic work.We discuss:* Sarah and Simon's path to launching Notion Custom Agents, and why the feature was rebuilt four or five times before it was ready for production* Why early agent attempts failed: no tool-calling standard, short context windows, unreliable models, and too much complexity exposed to the model* The “Agent Lab” thesis: not just wrapping a model, but understanding how people collaborate and building the right product system around frontier capabilities* How Notion thinks about roadmap timing: not swimming upstream against model limitations, but also building early enough that the product is ready when the models are* Why coding agents feel like the kernel of AGI, and how Notion is thinking about “software factories” made up of agents that spec, code, test, debug, review, and maintain codebases together* How Sarah runs AI engineering at Notion (“notes from Token Town”): objective-setting over idea ownership, low-ego teams comfortable deleting their own work, and a culture designed to swarm around fast-changing opportunities* The “Simon Vortex,” company hackathons, and why security gets pulled in early rather than late* How Notion organizes AI: core AI capabilities and infrastructure, product packaging teams, and a broader company mandate that every product surface must increasingly work for both humans and agents* Why prototypes have become much easier to build internally, and how “demos over memos” changes product development inside a tool the whole company already uses every day* Notion's eval philosophy: regression tests, launch-quality evals, and “frontier/headroom” evals that intentionally only pass ~30% of the time so the company can see where model capabilities are going* What a “Model Behavior Engineer” is, and why Notion treats eval writing, failure analysis, and model understanding as a distinct function rather than just software engineering* The changing role of software engineers in the age of coding agents, and why the new job looks less like typing code and more like supervising a rigorous outer system of agents, PRs, and verification loops* How the “software factory” should work: specs, self-verification, bug flows, subagents, and minimizing human intervention while preserving the invariants that matter* A live walkthrough of a Notion Custom Agent handling coworking space tenant applications by triaging email, enriching applicants with web search, and writing structured data into a Notion database* How agents compose inside Notion: shared databases as primitives, agents invoking other agents, “manager agents” supervising dozens of specialized agents, and memory implemented simply as pages and databases* Notion's take on MCP vs CLI: why Simon is bullish on CLI's self-debugging nature, where MCP still makes sense, and how Sarah thinks about capability, determinism, permissioning, and pricing alignment* The evolution of Notion's internal agent harness: from early JavaScript coding agents, to custom XML, to Markdown and SQL-like abstractions, to tool definitions, progressive disclosure, and a much shorter system prompt* Why Notion cares about teaching “the top of the class,” building for sophisticated operators rather than abstracting away too much capability for everyone* How agent setup works today: agents that can configure themselves, inspect their own failures, and edit their own instructions — with guardrails around permissions* How Notion prices Custom Agents: credits as an abstraction over tokens, model type, serving tier, web search, and future sandbox costs; why usage-based pricing was necessary; and how “auto” tries to match the right model to the right task* Why Notion is not eager to train a foundation model, where they do fine-tune and optimize today, and why retrieval/ranking is one of the most important investment areas as more searches come from agents rather than humans* Why Meeting Notes became one of Notion's strongest growth loops: not just as transcription, but as high-signal data capture that powers search, custom agents, follow-up workflows, and the broader system of record for company collaboration* Why Notion is more interested in being the place where collaboration data lives than in building hardware themselves — and how wearables or other capture devices may eventually feed into that systemSarah SachsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmsachsX: https://x.com/sarahmsachsSimon LastLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140X: https://x.com/simonlastFull Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00:00 Introduction and launching Notion Custom Agents* 00:01:17 Why Notion rebuilt agents four or five times* 00:03:35 Building for where models are going, not just where they are* 00:05:32 The Agent Lab thesis, wrappers, and product intuition* 00:08:07 User journeys, leadership, and low-ego AI teams* 00:13:16 The Simon Vortex, hackathons, and bringing security in early* 00:16:39 Team structure, demos over memos, and building for agents* 00:20:25 Evals, Notion's Last Exam, and the Model Behavior Engineer role* 00:27:37 Evals as an agent harness and the changing role of software engineers* 00:30:42 The software factory: specs, verification, and agent workflows* 00:32:18 Live demo: a custom agent for coworking space applications* 00:35:08 Composing agents, manager agents, and memory as pages* 00:38:15 Notion Mail, Gmail, native integrations, and tools* 00:39:43 MCP vs CLI and the cost of capability* 00:44:13 When Notion uses MCP vs building its own integrations* 00:47:43 The history of Notion's agent harness rebuilds* 00:55:35 Power users, public tools, and the setup agent* 00:58:01 Self-fixing agents, permissions, and “flippy”* 01:01:13 Pricing, credits, and choosing the right model automatically* 01:09:01 Why Notion isn't training its own frontier model* 01:14:07 Retrieval, ranking, and search built for agents* 01:17:27 Meeting Notes as data capture and workflow automation* 01:21:18 Wearables, hardware, and Notion as the system of record* 01:23:45 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio founder of Kernel Labs and I'm joined by swyx, editor of the Latent Space.[00:00:11] swyx: Hello. Hello. We're back in the beautiful studio that, uh, Alessio has set up for us with Simon and Sarah from Notion. Welcome.[00:00:18] Sarah Sachs: Thanks for having us.[00:00:19] Alessio: Thanks for having us. Yeah.[00:00:20] swyx: Congrats on the launch recently the custom agents, finally it's here. How's it feel?[00:00:26] Sarah Sachs: We ship things slowly. So it had been in Alpha for a little bit and at the point at which is it's an alpha, um, there's a group of people that are making sure it's ready for prod, and then there's a group of people working on the next thing.So sometimes some of these launches are a bit delayed satisfaction, so it's quite nice to remind yourself all the work you did because we do have a habit of like. Being two or three milestones ahead. Uh, just ‘cause you have to be, you know, you can't get complacent. Um, but it's been great that people understood how this is helpful.And I think that's just easier in general building AI tools today than it was two, three years ago. People kind of get it and so that user education, um, there's just, it was our most successful launch in terms of free trials and converting people and things like that. It was really successful, so yeah.But there's a lot to build.[00:01:12] swyx: Making it free for three months helps.[00:01:16] Sarah Sachs: Yep.[00:01:17] Simon Last: It was definitely super exciting for me because it's probably the fourth or fifth time that we rebuilt that.[00:01:22] swyx: Yes.[00:01:23] Simon Last: And I mean,[00:01:24] swyx: you've been building this since like 20, 22.[00:01:26] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, like, it was even right when we got access to like GPT four in late 20 22, 1 of the first ideas we had is like, oh, okay, let's make an agent that I, we used the word assistant at the time, there wasn't really the word, the word agent yet, but, oh, we'll give an access to all the tools the notion can do, and then it, we run in the background like, like do work for us.And then we just tried that many times and it just. Was too early. Um,[00:01:48] swyx: I need to force you to like double click on that. What is too early? What didn't work?[00:01:52] Sarah Sachs: We were fine to, like, before function calling came out. We were trying to fine tune with the Frontier Labs and with fireworks, like a function calling model on notion functions.This is right when I joined. I joined because, um, we needed a manager as Simon was needed to be able to go on vacation. So, uh, that's, that's around when I joined, so you can speak much more to it.[00:02:11] Simon Last: Yeah, we did partnerships with both philanthropic and open AI at different times, uh, to try to, at the time the, I mean, when we first tried, there wasn't even a constant of like tools yet.We, we sort of designed our own like, like tool calling framework and then we tried to fine tune the models to, uh, to use it over multiple turns. Um, and because it, it didn't work well out the box, I think. Yeah. The models are just too dumb and the context thing was also way too short.[00:02:37] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:02:37] Simon Last: Um, and yeah, we just kind of banged our head against it for a long time.Uh, unfortunately it was always like, there was always like sort of. Glimmers that it was working, but um, it never felt quite robust enough to be like a useful, delightful thing. Um, until I would say, uh, the big unlock was probably like Sonic 3.6 or seven, uh, early last year. And that's when we started working on our agent, which we shipped last year.Um, and then, and then uh, uh, custom agents, kinda a similar capability and that, that one just took longer because we, we just wanted to get the reliability up a lot higher. ‘cause it's actually running in the background.[00:03:14] Sarah Sachs: And the product interface of like permissions and understanding, you know, this custom agent is shared in a Slack channel with X group of people and has access to documents that are surfaced to Y group of people.And the intersect experts, Y might not be whole. And so how do you build the product around making sure administrators understand that permissioning took multiple swings.[00:03:35] Alsesio: Everything is hard back at the end of the day. Yeah. I'm curious, like when the models are not working, how do you inform the product roadmap of like, okay, we should probably build, expecting the models to be better at some reasonable pace, but at the same time we need to, you know, you had a lot of customers in 2022.It's not like you were a new company or like no user base.[00:03:54] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean I think there's always the balance of, you know, like you want to be a GI pilled and thinking ahead and building for where things are going. Uh, but also you wanna be like shipping useful things. And so we always try to like, like keep a balance there.You know, we. We try to take clear, like a portfolio approach. You know, we're always working on multiple projects and, and we're always trying to work on, you know, maintaining things where that have already shipped, like, like shipping new things that are like eminently working well and make them really good.And, and then we wanna always have a few projects that are a little bit crazy. Um,[00:04:23] Alsesio: and what are the a GI peel projects that you have today? I'm curious about, uh, you don't have to share exactly what you're working on, but I'm curious what are things today that maybe in 18 months people will be like, oh, obviously this was gonna work[00:04:35] Sarah Sachs: 18 months.[00:04:37] Alsesio: Yeah, 18 months is, you know,[00:04:37] Sarah Sachs: it's a long time and Yeah. Yeah.[00:04:39] Simon Last: I mean, there's a number of things happening. I think one thing that's becoming more clear is I think like, like, uh, coding agents are the kernel of EGI, sort of, everything is a coding agent. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's sort of one, one direction.Um, and then, yeah, the exciting thing about that is sort of your agent can sort of bootstrap its own software and capabilities and actually debug and maintain them. And so yeah, we're, we're, we're thinking a lot about that. And then, yeah, like, like another category of things that I'm, I'm really excited about is like, uh, we call the software factory also.People are using this, uh, this, this sort of word. Um, basically it just means can you create sort of like a, as automated as possible, a workflow for developing debugging. Mm-hmm. Merging, reviewing, and maintaining a code base and a service where there's a bunch of agents working together inside, and like, like how does that work?[00:05:28] Sarah Sachs: If you think back to your initial question, like, why did this take so long? I think something,[00:05:32] swyx: I didn't say that, but Yes. Okay. Go ahead.[00:05:34] Sarah Sachs: Why, what, what changed over the three and half years of trying[00:05:37] swyx: it? Exactly. Right. Because most people always say like, it didn't work yet. Then reasoning models came, then it worked.I was like, okay, let's go a little[00:05:43] Sarah Sachs: bit. That's, I mean, that's part of it, but I think the other part of it that I actually think is really what will set notion apart for every new capability is we have like. Two skills that are crucial when it comes to frontier capabilities. One is not letting yourself swim upstream.So like quickly realizing if you're just pressing against model capabilities versus not exposing the model to the right information, not having the right infrastructure set up. That and of itself is the skill of intuition. And the second is to see, okay, you're not swimming upstream. Which direction is the river flowing and what is like, how do we think ahead about the product and start building it even if it's not great yet, so that when it is there, we're ready for it.Right? And like those can sometimes feel like counterintuitive things. Like we can be trying to fine tune a tool calling model when they don't exist yet. And that the trick is to not do that for too long, but realize that there was something there. And we've had a lot of things which like, um, we're just like not swimming in the right direction with the streams.I think we had multiple versions of transcription before we got meeting notes, right? Oh, I gotta talk[00:06:39] swyx: about that. Yeah.[00:06:40] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. Um, and so. I, I, I think that like we, we really closely partner with the Frontier Labs on capabilities and we also have to have strong conviction on, as those capabilities move.Notion is about being the best place for you to collaborate and do your work. And how does that narrative change if the way that we work changes?Yeah.[00:06:58] swyx: Yeah. You told me you were a fan of the Agent Lab thesis, and this is, this is kind of it, right?[00:07:02] Sarah Sachs: Right. I show that thesis to so many candidates. Like I have it as like micro chrome autofill.Um, at this point, like it's one of my most visitations[00:07:10] swyx: because like, is this the, here's why you should work in notion and not open, open eye. I, it's like,[00:07:14] Sarah Sachs: here's, here's what's different about it.[00:07:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:16] Sarah Sachs: And here's why. It's not just a rapper. I actually think more and more people understand it's not just a wrapper.[00:07:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:22] Sarah Sachs: Um, and by the way, like in the beginning, parts of what we build are wrappers on functionality. That works well, of course, but that's not really the most, um. I would say that's not the product that, that drives revenue. And that's not necessarily always what users need.[00:07:35] swyx: I mean, you know, notion is the AWS wrapper, but like the, the wrapper is very beautiful and like very, very well polished.So[00:07:40] Sarah Sachs: like the analogy,[00:07:41] swyx: like[00:07:42] Sarah Sachs: the analogy that I've been coming back to his Datadog in AWS[00:07:45] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:46] Sarah Sachs: So, uh, Datadog could not exist with, without cloud storage. Right. That it's kind of fundamental that that works. Um, and AWS has like a CloudWatch product, but Datadog is an expert on understanding how people want observability on the products they launch.And we're experts in understanding how people wanna collaborate, and that's really where our expertise lies.[00:08:04] swyx: Totally.[00:08:04] Sarah Sachs: Um, regardless of the tools that we use,[00:08:07] Alsesio: I'm kind of curious how you think about implicit versus explicit expertise. I feel like Datadog is half and half implicit and explicit. It's like they understand across markets and industries what engineering teams usually look for.With notion, it's almost like more of the expertise is at the edge because you as a platform, you're like so horizontal that the end user is not really the same. Mm-hmm. Like with Datadog, the end user is always like, yeah, an engineering lead, a kinda like SRE related person with notion. It can be anything.So I'm curious how you put that expertise into a product versus, you know, obviously it, WS cannot build notion. It's, that doesn't quite work in this case, but[00:08:44] Simon Last: it's, it's a little bit differently shaped. I think, you know, a classic vertical SaaS, like the data is kind of like that. They understand their individual customer very deeply.It's kinda a narrow slice, um, notion has always been super horizontal. And our, our task has always been to sort of balance these two somewhat opposing forces of like, we're listening to our customers and what they want us to build. It's a broad slice. And then also we're thinking about like, okay, how do we decompose what they want into, uh, nice primitives that are, that are really nice to use and we'll, we'll get us like as much bang for the buck as possible.And then, you know. Maintain the whole system, make it all like, like super clean and nice to use.[00:09:22] Sarah Sachs: We still have user journeys. I mean, we still focus on like core. I actually think the failure of our team is when we focus too much on what are cools that are, what are tools that are[00:09:31] Simon Last: mm-hmm.[00:09:31] Sarah Sachs: Cool tools. I actually think that's when we make have the least velocity because you still need some sort of focus on a user journey.So like for instance, we'll all sit down every Friday and look at the P 99 of like the most token exhaustive custom agent transcript and just look at why it didn't do well and cut a bunch of tasks. Like we still focus on like, this has, like this should work. Email triaging should work. Mm-hmm. Right. And similarly, like when we're talking about before building, um, chatting, um, before we started filming about, okay, how can I do PDF export?Well that's functionality that then merits. Maybe we should build a tool that has access to a computer sandbox in a file system and the ability to write code. Right? Right. Um, but it's because we're thinking about the fact that our users to do their, to do their daily work, need to export PDFs, not because we're like, Hmm, I think a computer tool could be cool.Like, let's just see what happens. Mm-hmm. Like we, we have to focus on some user journeys, otherwise we just don't have like, enough strategy to, to prioritize.[00:10:29] swyx: I think there's a lot of like really strong opinions that you've had. Do you have like sort of like a towel of Sarah Sachs? Like, you know, like what, how do you run your team?Like I feel like you just have accumulated all these strong opinions. Obviously part, part of this is your, your token town thing.[00:10:43] Sarah Sachs: I think the TAs working with Service X is, um, you'd have to, it depends who you ask. Um, I think it depends if you're on my team or a partner Right. Or a vendor.[00:10:54] swyx: Yeah. There other people want to run their teams the way that you're Yeah.You're like bringing these things. And then also similarly, uh, Simon, when you did the custom agents demo, you had like, well, we've been using custom agents and here's the super long list of everything that we do. No humans ever read it. Right? That's what you said. I was like,[00:11:07] Sarah Sachs: yeah. So I think for, for me, um, something that I learned very quickly and became very comfortable with was that my job was not to be the ideas per person or the technical expert.My job was to make it so that everybody understood the objective, had a resource to help prioritize what they should work on, and had an avenue to prioritize what they thought was important. And I think that's true with all, all leadership, but I think especially on the AI team. Almost all of our best ideas come from prototypes, from people that have a cool idea because they saw a user problem, and it's a huge disservice if all of those ideas have to pass, like the sniff test of what me and a product partner or Simon and Ivan decided were the direction, right?Because a lot of what we're doing is leaning into capabilities, so. I think that's the first thing is like, I don't really view like the role of engineering leadership as like, uh, hierarchical, nor has it ever been, but especially now, like very willing to change direction based on, um, like proof is in the pudding.Yeah. And like, and I think we have rebuilt our harness three or four times. And when you do that, then the second rule of engineering leadership is like you need to build a team that's comfortable deleting their own code and is very low ego and is driven by what's best for the company. And, um, doesn't write design docs because they think it's their promotion packet.Right. And that's a culture that notion had long before I joined, but like our willingness to just swarm on different problems and um, redo things that we've built before because something has changed. Like, there's a lot of friction that can happen at companies when you do that. And it doesn't happen at Notion.And because it doesn't happen when new people join. Like they don't wanna be the ones that are saying, we shouldn't do this. I wrote that code. So then it's, you know, you, you create a culture that everyone thoughts and that culture comes directly, I think from Simon and Ivan though, um, because they're very open-minded.[00:12:50] swyx: Anything that you,[00:12:50] Simon Last: you'd add? I'm not a manager, like, like, like Sarah is. Um, a lot of my role is really to try to think a little bit ahead, make sure that we're, we're building on the right capabilities and then like the prototyping stuff. And yeah, it's really, really critical to always just be starting again.It's like, okay, this is new thing. What does this mean? What if we just rethought everything or wrote everything? And so I, I'm, I'm basically just doing that in a loop every six months.[00:13:16] swyx: Yeah. Do you believe in internal hackathons for this stuff?[00:13:19] Sarah Sachs: I think there's like two different versions. So one is like, we just have a, a, a solid bench of senior engineers that come and go on what we call the Simon Vortex and Productionizing what we built, right?Because when you're in the Simon Vortex, the velocity is super high. The direction changes daily, and it's meant to be like the equivalent of a SC Works lab. We don't need to do hackathons for that. We need to have senior engineers that we trust to come in and out of those projects. For instance, like management boundaries are really loose.Like you report to him, but you work for her right now. Yeah. That's something that when we hire managers, it's important they don't care about because we tend to form more structures. Yeah. Don't be too[00:13:54] swyx: territorial.[00:13:55] Sarah Sachs: We form more. It's after we ship things, not not before, just historically. Um, the second thing is we do have companywide hackathons.Actually we just had our demos day for the hackathon we had last week this morning. That's more for people that aren't directly working on the project, feeling like they have the time to pause and learn how to make themselves more productive or how they would use notion custom agents to build something.Or part of the hackathon was actually encouraging everyone across the company to build their own agentic tool loop, calling from scratch. Follow like an every blog post on how to do what I think because we want[00:14:26] swyx: just with the compound engineering one. Yeah.[00:14:28] Sarah Sachs: We want everyone to use cloud code in the company or whatever the coding agent they please and understand that fundamental.So we set aside a day and a half. We're all leadership, encourage everyone on their teams across the company to do it. So we have hackathons like that. I would say like kind of facetiously, like everything we build is a little bit like a hackathon until it graduates and puts on big boy pants and as a product ops rollout leader and has a assigned data scientists and stuff like that,[00:14:54] swyx: security review enterprise stuff,[00:14:56] Sarah Sachs: actually security reviews one of the things that we bring in first because it just slows us down way more and, um, causes a lot of tension and they build better product if they're involved early.So, um, that is probably the first person to get involved in something that's the[00:15:09] swyx: right PR approved answer.[00:15:10] Sarah Sachs: No, but it's not just PR approved. It like, um, um, it's[00:15:13] swyx: actually real. It's actually real. It's like, um, I'm just saying scar[00:15:15] Sarah Sachs: tissue.[00:15:15] swyx: Yeah,[00:15:16] Sarah Sachs: because like, you know, my background's also, I worked at Robinhood for a number of years.Yes. So like, uh, compliance and things like that, um, are a little bit more, you learn the hard way when it doesn't come naturally.[00:15:26] Simon Last: Yeah. I think the. The hackathon is really important for uplifting the general population, but like, if that's the only way you can build new things, you're kind of toast. I mean, it, it has to be like the daily processes, like, you know, building these new things.Um, and it has to be about, I think like, I think in the AI era a lot more leverage accumulates to the most curious and excited people. And so it's like we're all about just like activating that energy. You know, like if someone's protesting something on the weekend that they're excited about and it's important, that should be the main thing that we're doing.Yeah. Um, it's not a hackathon that we schedule once a quarter, it's just like, yeah. Daily process. Part of the culture.[00:16:02] Sarah Sachs: I mean, that's how we shift image generation and notion now. It was always this thing that would be kind of nice to have, but it wasn't really clear where that was necessarily aligned in product priorities.It'd be a lot of work. And we had someone on the database collections team, Jimmy, who was like. I really wanna do image generation for cover photos and inside notion. And we're like, if you wanna build it, like it's, do it please. Like we encourage you. We gave ‘em all the resources of working directly with Gemini and being able to like track the token usage and it working through endpoints.We gave them eval, support, everything, and then became a, a full project.[00:16:34] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:16:35] Sarah Sachs: That's why you can't have like ego as a, a leader. Like that's, that's how we work.[00:16:39] Alsesio: What's the size of the team today, both engineering and overall?[00:16:43] Sarah Sachs: I manage, uh, the team. That's what we'll call it. Core AI capabilities and infrastructure.That's about 50 people. But then we have per i partner teams that do packaging. So how it shows up in the corner chat versus custom agents versus meeting notes, that's another 30, 40 people. And, and then every team that has a product service at Notion that a user can interface with owns the tool that the agent interfaces with the editor team.The team that did CRDT for offline mode is the same team that handles how two agents, um, edit competing blocks. Mm-hmm. Right? It's the same problem. The team that built the underlying SQL engine is the same team that owns how the agent asks it to run a SQL query, and it does it performantly. And so from that regard, anyone working on product engineering is tasked with making them work for customers that are humans and agents because over time the majority of our traffic will be coming from agencies using in our interface, not humans.And so. Our objective is to make it so that the whole product org is building for agents.[00:17:40] Alsesio: Yeah. How has it changed internally? The activation bar is kind of lowered a lot. Like anybody can kind of create a prototype very, somewhat easily, especially if you're like an existing code base. Have you raised the bar on like what type of prototype people need to bring forward to gonna be taken?Not like seriously, but like, you know what I[00:17:58] Simon Last: mean? Yeah. I think the bar is lowered in many ways. Be like, one thing our, uh, our team built that is really cool is our, uh, our, our design team made a whole separate GitHub repo, uh, called the, the design Playground. And it's basically just to create a bunch of like, like helper components and you, uh, for, for quickly a throwing together UIs.And it's become like actually quite sophisticated. Like it has like an agent in there and like, uh, that's pretty fun. So like, we pretty much, like, they don't do mocks, they just make like, like full, full prototypes.[00:18:27] swyx: Here it is. It works.[00:18:28] Simon Last: They give you like a u rl. They're like, okay, all right. So we have to make the, like the real production version of that.Um, and then for engineers. A prototype looks like just making it a feature flag that actually works. Like that's sort of the bar.[00:18:39] Sarah Sachs: Something to understand that's really unique about notion. One of the reasons I joined we're super lucky is no one uses Notion in their job as much as people that work at Notion.[00:18:46] Simon Last: Of course.[00:18:47] Sarah Sachs: So I think there's very few companies, maybe if you worked on Chrome I guess, but like everything that we ship, we ship internally first and get a lot of really quick feedback. And also sometimes our dev instance is totally borked and you have to change a bunch of flags to get things done. And that's kind of like, but everyone, so people that do it ticketing, people that do supply chain procurement, recruiting, everyone is using the same instance of notion with like a lot of flags on for these prototypes people build.Um, and so we have this, Brian Levin, one of the designers on our team, I think evangelize this concept of demos over memos.[00:19:18] swyx: Ooh, too[00:19:20] Sarah Sachs: good. Um, which has been, uh, very good for building demos, and I think it's put a big pressure point on us to have really strong product conviction, because if anything can be demoed, you really need a strong filter of making sure that if you know, you're doing X amount of work, you're making the, you're, you're focusing on one tower, you're not just building a really flat hill.Right. That's actually where I think there has to be more conviction from our PMs, um, and our designers and, and well, the company really to have conviction of what journey we're going on.[00:19:52] Simon Last: But overall, I feel like it works pretty well. Like people, almost all the engineers have good enough taste to realize that like, this prototype doesn't actually make sense in the product, or, or it does.So it's not that common that I would see a prototype. It's like, oh, this makes no sense. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, people are doing reasonable things and, and, and then it's just a matter of. Which things we build first and then often just, just figuring out how to turn it on and off. There's our, in the, in our like experimental chat ui, there's this, there's probably like, like a hundred check boxes in there.[00:20:22] Sarah Sachs: Kills me[00:20:23] Simon Last: the things you could turn on and off.[00:20:25] Sarah Sachs: Uh, but I think that, okay, so that is kind of true, Simon, but like being the person that manages the evals team, like there is a level of intensity that it adds to the platform team. So, you know, if we're gonna do image generation and notion, all of a sudden the way that we do attachments and the way that we, um, our LLM completion like cortex talks and expects tokens back and now it's getting images back.Like there's a lot of platform work that we do need to, like solidify a little bit. So sometimes it'll be in dev for a couple weeks before it makes it to prod just because we still have to like, make it robust, make it HIPAA compliant, ZDR compliant, figure out the right contracting with the vendor, whatever it is.And we need to eval it because we want the team. To still maintain what they build. That's the one thing is like if we have a bunch of prototypes, it can't just be like a small group of people that then maintain whatever end prototypes. So we have invested a lot of people in an eval and model behavior understanding teams that, we call it agent dev velocity.So your dev velocity building agents can be faster if we invest in that platform. And so we have a whole org dedicated to Asian, um, platform velocity so that you can build your own eval and then maintain it once you ship it. So if a new model release comes out and we, every[00:21:38] swyx: team maintains their own eval,[00:21:40] Sarah Sachs: we maintain the eval framework.Every team owns their own evals and a lot of them we've integrated to Optin, to ci, or we run them nightly and we have a team, uh, a custom agent that triggers to a team to look at the major failures. That's really critical because if we have like all these different surfaces now, a lot of it's on the same agent harness, so it's easier to maintain.It's just packaging of different agent harnesses, but new functionality of the agent. Let's say that like we wanna update like. Uh, you know, they deprecated, sonnet, um, four or whatever it is and we need to auto update. Are[00:22:11] swyx: they already? That's so, okay. Yeah. Actually wasn't that long ago.[00:22:14] Alsesio: Theywere[00:22:14] Alsesio: just 3.5.[00:22:15] Sarah Sachs: 3.537. Just got deprecated.[00:22:18] swyx: 3 7, 5 0.2 or, yeah. No,[00:22:20] Sarah Sachs: it's not. 5.2 is five point. Five point no. Yeah, five four is 40% more expensive than five two. So if they deprecated five two, you would hear they can, you would hear from me about that one. Um, but, uh, another conversation to have.[00:22:35] swyx: I have a cheeky evals question for you.Have you noticed any secret degradation from any of the major model providers?[00:22:40] Sarah Sachs: Secret degradation,[00:22:42] swyx: like. During the War Bay, when it's high traffic, it suddenly gets dumber.[00:22:47] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. I mean, not just between the, I mean, we definitely notice flakiness, we've definitely noticed, particularly for some providers, that things are slower during working hours and[00:22:57] swyx: there's a latency argument.Yes. Not a quality argument.[00:22:59] Sarah Sachs: No. I think the quality difference that's interesting is, um, even though companies that say they're selling the same, a, it's really into like quanti quantization, but like companies that say they're selling the same model through different vendors, whether it be through first party or Bedrock, Azure, et cetera.We do see different qualities sometimes, and that's not necessarily what's advertised.[00:23:21] swyx: Yeah. Kidney went to the point of like, if we, they shipped like this, like eval across all the providers and it was like very obvious we were secret equalizing and it was very,[00:23:28] Sarah Sachs: yeah. But[00:23:29] swyx: that's very embarrassing.[00:23:30] Sarah Sachs: You know, um, we hire Subprocess to figure that out for us.So we just wanna understand where it's regressing or where it's optimized. And sometimes we're okay with regressions that optimize latency if they're the appropriate regressions. Our job is to make sure we have the evals to understand the changes that are important to us. And even like when we're partnering with labs on pre-releasees of models, they'll send us multiple snapshots.And this is less about quantization, but more just regressions. Like they have shipped models that were not the snapshots that we wanted, and they have changed the snapshots that they shipped based on the feedback that we give. Because our feedback tends to be more enterprise work focused and not coding agent focused.And definitely those can be bummers, like, you know, uh, we know that this wasn't the version you wanted, but we'll help you make it work. I mean, we always make it work, but that definitely happens.[00:24:16] Alsesio: Yeah. Do you have, um, failing evals that you're just hoping, oh, that will have success eventually when a good model comes out?[00:24:23] Sarah Sachs: Uh, I mean, yeah. So I think. I mean, I could talk about this for 60 minutes, so I will limit myself. I think it's a real issue when people say evals and it's just like, that's quality, that's like unit, I mean, it's like saying testing. It's not just unit tests, right? So. We have the equivalent of unit test.Regression test. Those live in ci, those have to pass a certain percent, you know, within some stochastic error rate. Then we have, as you're building a product, evals of these aren't passing right now, and this is launch quality. So we have a report card and we need to, on these categories, you know, be it 80 or 90% of all of these user journeys to launch, and then what we have what we call frontier or headroom evals, where we actively wanna be at 30% pass rate.And that's actually been a effort that we took in partnership with philanthropic and OpenAI in the past maybe two or three months, because we actually hit a point where our evals were saturated and we weren't able to really give insightful feedback other than it wasn't worse. And not only is that not helpful for our partners, it's not helpful for us to understand where the stream is going.You know, going back to that analogy. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about. What notions last exam looks like, right? Mm-hmm. Not just humanities, last exam. Ooh, notions last exam. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a lot of, you know, dreams about what that would look like. I know we've talked a lot about benchmarking, um, swix, but, uh, yeah.Notions last exam is a big thing inside the company and we have people, full-time staff to it exclusively. Mm. We have a data scientist, a model behavior engineer, and an full-time, um, evals engineer just dedicated to the evals that we pass 30% of the time.[00:25:56] swyx: What you're hiring for[00:25:57] Sarah Sachs: MBEs? I am hiring[00:25:58] swyx: What is an MBEA[00:25:59] Sarah Sachs: model?Behavior Engineer Model. Behavior engineers started with a title data specialist before I joined when they were working with Simon on like, uh, Google Sheets and like Simon just needed someone to look through Google Sheets and say, yes, no, this looks bad. This looks good. Right? And so we hired people with kind of diverse linguistics background.We had like a linguistics PhD dropout. Mm-hmm. And a Stanford ate new grad. And they're amazing. And they formed a new function basically. And over time we've built a whole team, um, with a manager who's now kind of reinventing what that role is with coding agents. So they used to be kind of manually inspecting code.Now they're primarily building agents that can write evals for themselves or LLM judges. There's a really funny day I can send you the picture where Simon, about a year and a half ago, was teaching them how to use GitHub. Um, and they're on the whiteboard and it was like, okay, I think it would be so much faster if our data specialists learned how to use GitHub and like learned how to commit these things in Dakota.And, and that was then and now I think, you know, coding has been a lot more accessible. Um, but moving forward it's this mix of like data scientist PM and prompt engineer because there's craft in understanding like even like what models can and can't do things. How do we define like that headroom? How do we define like what a good journey is?Um, is this model better or not? Why is this failing? There's some qualitative work, but then there's also like a lot of instinct and taste to it, and that's not necessarily software engineering. And so we have like very firm conviction and we have had for a number of years now that that is its own career path and we have always welcomed the misfits, so to speak.So we really firmly believe that you don't need an engineering background to be the best at this job. And that's what's quite unique about this particular role.[00:27:37] Simon Last: Yeah, this is something that I've been pretty excited about recently is we made an effort basically to treat the eval system as like an agent harness.So if you think about it, like, you know, you should be able to have an agent end-to-end, download a dataset, run an eval, iterate on a failure, debug, and, and then implement a fix. And ultimately you should be able to, you know, drive the full time process with a human sort of observing the, you know, the outer uh, system.So yeah, we went, went pretty hard on that. And that's, that's worked extremely well so far. It's like basically just to turn it into a coding agent, uh, uh, problem.[00:28:11] swyx: Your coding agent or just whatever[00:28:13] Simon Last: harness No coding agent. Yeah, code, cloud code. It should be totally general. Yeah. I think if it would be a mistake to like, like fix it on any, any particular coding agent.At the end of the day, it's just like CLI tools.[00:28:21] Sarah Sachs: It's like the same way that you would've a coding agent write the unit test. You should have a coding agent write the eval.[00:28:26] swyx: Yeah.[00:28:26] Sarah Sachs: But there's a lot of supervision in that still. We just don't believe that supervision has to come from software engineers because a lot of it is like, um, kind of you XREE and whatever, and these are the people that also triage failures and tell us where we should be investing next.[00:28:40] swyx: Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and ask a spicy question. Is there a data, there are no software engineers at Notion.[00:28:46] Simon Last: Um,[00:28:46] Sarah Sachs: what does it mean to be a software engineer?[00:28:47] swyx: Exactly.[00:28:48] Simon Last: I mean, I think the way things are going is like we're on some continuum where. If, if you look back three years ago, humans were typing all the code and then we had auto complete, you're typing list of the code.Then we had sort of like filling agents, filling lines, and now we're getting into like agents doing longer range tasks where you can debug and implement a fix and then verify it works and you know, get your, get your PR even like, like Merion deployed. I think we're sort of just moving up the abstraction ladder and then the human role becomes more about observing and maintaining the outer system.There's a string of agents flowing through, like me prs what's going off the rails. Like what do I need to approve? Is there like a learning or memory mechanism that that works? So it's kind of a hard engineering problem. There's a, you know, there's, there's a lot to do there. I think we're just sort of moving up stack[00:29:34] Sarah Sachs: the same transition machine learning engineers have made, right?Like I haven't looked at a PR curve in a while.[00:29:39] swyx: Yeah. You used to do this stuff and now, um, auto research can do it,[00:29:42] Sarah Sachs: right? Like I think it depends on what you define as a software engineer.[00:29:46] swyx: Yes. It's, that's changing for sure.[00:29:49] Sarah Sachs: I think every software engineer in notion this summer went through like this, um, sheer, um, one of our engineering leads of the company called it, like every software engineer is going through the, the, uh, identity crisis that every manager goes through, where all of a sudden they realize their ability to write code is less important than their ability to delegate in context switch.And I think that is a transition out of being a software engineer. But[00:30:12] Simon Last: yeah. Yeah, there's a critical difference to being a manager, which is that like, it is actually very deeply technical. The problem, you know, humans are very like, like, like fuzzy and you can't like treat a team of humans like a, like a rigorous system where like, you know, prs like, like flow through and can be in like a block status and then what happens when they're blocked, right.With a set of agents, you actually can do that. And, and, and I think it's actually, there's a lot of interesting technical rigor that that goes into that it's like it's a technical design problem. Ultimately.[00:30:42] Alsesio: What is the design of the software factory that you're building?[00:30:46] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think we're. Trying a lot of different things.I mean, ultimately you want to design a system that requires as little human intervention as possible, but like still maintaining the in variance that, that you care about. So yeah, we're exploring a lot different ideas there. I mean, I think I could talk about a few things I think are important there.Like, one thing I think is really important is, um, having some kind of like specification layer you can just commit marked on files. Mm-hmm. That works pretty well, but[00:31:15] swyx: it's nice to be notion man. I'm just saying like the spec, like Yeah. The natural home for specs is notion.[00:31:21] Simon Last: Yeah. Right. It can be a database of pages.Yeah. I mean, it needs to be something that is, you know, human readable and I viewable and I think that's pretty key. Another really key component is like the, the self verification loop. Yes. You need really, really good testing layers, basically. And that's a really deep, uh, uh, problem. But by getting that right, you know, and then, and then it's kinda like the workflow of like.What happens when there's a bug? How does it flow into the system? Like, is it like a subagent working on it? How does it make a PR and how does that get reviewed? And me, and then, you know, so there's like the, the flow or process.[00:31:56] swyx: Yeah. Cool. Uh, you know, one thing we did work out before you guys came in was this demo or this[00:32:01] Simon Last: agents[00:32:02] swyx: agent demo.Uh,[00:32:03] Simon Last: so every,[00:32:04] Alsesio: every time we do an episode, we try the product. Right. I don't think there's ever been an episode that I haven't tried. Yeah. Um,[00:32:11] swyx: and we, we try, try is a, a big word. Like since day one lane space has been on Notion, but this is the, this is the net new thing. Yes.[00:32:18] Alsesio: So this is for Nel Labs, which is the space we're in.So next week we're opening applications for tenants. So there's a web form, let me, we got this form done here. Uh, so, uh, before. Uh, the workflow would be I get an email, then I look at the person. It was like, should I spend time talking to this person? Then I respond, they respond back. So I build this. So the name it came up for on its own.Can you maybe h how do, how does it come up with its own name?[00:32:43] Simon Last: Yeah, that's a pretty app name. It's, it, it is just a random, it's a random, a name generator.[00:32:47] Alsesio: Oh, that's funny. It just came,[00:32:49] Simon Last: the fact that it picked that is, is kind of hilarious. I'm pretty sure it's just determined,[00:32:54] Sarah Sachs: resilient collector. I, I think I've never looked at the code for that.I've never second guessed it. I think it's kind of like a madlib situation.[00:33:00] Simon Last: Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. It's, it's totally a, a deterministic. Oh, I thought it was great. Yes. Although, although when the, if you use the AI to set itself up, it can update its own name, so. Okay. Um,[00:33:11] Sarah Sachs: how did you create it? It, did you just do[00:33:12] Alsesio: classroom?I,[00:33:13] Sarah Sachs: okay.[00:33:13] Alsesio: I did, yeah. I'll say just check my inbox for applications for a coworking space. Keep a people, so it created the database for me. Which I have here. And I guess database is like an notion table because everything is notion. Um, and then whenever um, an email comes in, like here, it just creates a new role for the person.Mm-hmm. And then it uses web search to enrich the mm-hmm. The profile. So it kind of like searches the web and it's like, this is who this person is, this is when they say they wanna move in and kind of updates everything else. This is, I mean, it's not a GI, but to me, I don't wanna do this work. So it feels like, I mean, it took me maybe like 15 minutes to set up the whole thing.Um, and I really like that most of the information should live here. You know, it is not like some other tool asking me[00:34:01] Sarah Sachs: Yeah.[00:34:01] Alsesio: To like, bring my stuff there. It's like I would've probably already created an ocean thing.[00:34:06] Sarah Sachs: Mm-hmm.[00:34:06] Alsesio: So[00:34:07] Sarah Sachs: most of our biggest use cases and gains are from. That extra layer of human involvement in the process to make it so right.And so like one of our biggest use cases is bug triaging. So if someone posts something in Slack, can you just have a custom agent that lives there that has its own routing constitution of what team this belongs to, creates a task in your task database and then posts in that Slack channel, right? Like that's like one of the first things that we built internally, I think.And it's completely changed the way that notion functions as a company. Nothing falls through, well, most things don't fall through the crack. We don't know what we don't know. But it's not replacing people, it's replacing processes.[00:34:44] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:34:44] Sarah Sachs: Right.[00:34:45] Alsesio: And I'm curious how you think about composability of these things.So the other one I was working on is like a. These filler. So whenever somebody signs up as a tenant, kind of he'll sell the lease for them. There should probably some agent that is like office manager agent mm-hmm. That can handle the request, make the lease, and then, uh, give them a ADA access to the office and all of that.How do you think about that feature?[00:35:08] Simon Last: Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's two ways you can compose. One way is by using like the data primitives. So you can, you know, you, you could give, you have one agent, uh, be writing to the database and there's another agent that's walked in the database. So that's, that's one way that they, they can coordinate that's like a little bit more decoupled and mm-hmm.Works really well. Or you, you can couple them. So I, I think it's actually not released yet. Releasing it like next week is, uh, in the settings for an agent, you can give access to invoke any other agent.[00:35:34] swyx: Hmm.[00:35:34] Simon Last: So you can have them just. Just, uh, uh, talk directly. So[00:35:37] swyx: you, was there a limit on like, number of recursions or just,[00:35:40] Simon Last: um, probably,[00:35:42] swyx: you know what I mean?Like, you can just get an infinite loop that way there's[00:35:45] Simon Last: some kind of Yeah,[00:35:46] Sarah Sachs: I think it's, there is actually a number somewhere.[00:35:49] swyx: I believe I'm just, you know, like, you're, you're, someone's gonna screw up. You[00:35:51] Simon Last: should you try to see[00:35:53] swyx: Yeah. I mean, everything's gonna be paperclips.[00:35:55] Simon Last: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but, but that's really useful.Yeah. So we, you know, like I just, I, I helped, uh, someone internally the other day, they had, they had built like over 30 custom agents for, uh, for our go to market team doing all kinds of different things. You know, for example, like researching, you know, like, like filling information about, about a customer or like, like triaging customer feedback or like, uh, something like that.Literally over 30 of them. And, and then he, and then he even made like a database of all the agents and then he is like, okay, and, and now I'm getting 70, over 70 notifications per day with just the agents are blocked on various things. Uh, and then I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, the obvious thing to do there is to make a manager agent,[00:36:32] Sarah Sachs: right?[00:36:33] Simon Last: That's gonna sort of blocks be another abstraction layer in between your, your, uh, uh, 30 agents. Uh, so yeah, we, we send out with like a manager agent and then has access to invoke all the other agents and it's sort of like, like watching and observing them and then it sort of, it just creates a layer of abstraction.So instead of 70 notifications per day, it's like, like five. And then, and then the manager agent can help like, uh, debug and fix any problems with the,[00:36:54] swyx: does this is a concept of like an inbox or something like piece, you're basically saying that they can message each other?[00:37:00] Simon Last: Yeah.[00:37:01] Sarah Sachs: Well[00:37:01] swyx: they use the system of record, which, which is[00:37:02] Sarah Sachs: notion, so we[00:37:03] Simon Last: actually, yeah, we didn't make any special concepts at all.[00:37:06] swyx: They're interested to the motion notifications that I would've got,[00:37:09] Sarah Sachs: they can just like write a task to a database that the other agent's task to listening to, or they can actually call a web book to the agent, like they can just add the agent. Okay.[00:37:17] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, this is something that, that we're still working on.I, I think we, you know, like, like generally, generally the way we do these things is, you know, you first make it possible, maybe like a sort of janky way. So I, I, I think the way I set ‘em up is like, you know, we created like a new database that was sort of like issues mm-hmm. That the custom agents were, were experiencing, and then gave them all access to file an issue and then the manager has access to, to read the issues.Um, and that works pretty well, essentially like, like give it its own like internal issue tracker just for the agents. And then, you know, if that becomes a, a concept that seems useful, generally maybe we will think of how to package it in. But I mean, generally we try to just keep it to composing the primitive if we can.You know, another example of this is we have no built-in memory concept. Memory is, is just pages and databases. And so if you wanna give a memory, just give it a page and give it. Edit access to that page and the[00:38:03] swyx: human can edit it. Agent can edit[00:38:04] Simon Last: it. Yeah. And so that works, that pattern works extremely well on it.And you know, depending this case, you can have it be just a page or it could be an entire database with, you know, or, you know, I can have sub pages is is pretty on what you can do with that.[00:38:15] Alsesio: So when I was setting this up, uh, I connected my inbox and it was like, do you wanna use Gmail or Notion Mail? And I'm like, I don't wanna use Eater, I just want you to do it.I'm curious how you think about, you know, notion, mail, notion, calendar, all of these kind of ui ux interfaces, full stack[00:38:29] Simon Last: notion.[00:38:30] Alsesio: Yeah. When like at the same time you have the agents abstracting them away from you in a way, you know, how do you spend like the product calories so to speak?[00:38:37] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty important that you don't have to use, not your mail to connect to the mail capability.So we can just connect to Gmail or, or whatever you want, uh, to use. And we're thinking of the mail service as being really great to the extent that it's really agent built, right? So maybe the mail app is just sort of a prepackaged agent that helps you automate your, your inbox.[00:39:00] Alsesio: Yeah, the auto labeling is great.Think[00:39:03] Sarah Sachs: the, when we, um, integrate with Gmail for instance, we have a series of tools available that are available via MCP or API to Gmail. When we integrate with Notion Mail, we have the Notion Mail engineering team to build us the, um, exact right tools that optimize latency, optimize performance and quality.They own that quality. Um, there's product leads there. They're directly thinking about the user problems that happen in mail. So it tends to be when we build integrations and connections, we build natively first. Um, and then think about, um, extending them generally just because it's also easier. Mm-hmm. Um, um, to build natively first.Um, so that tends to be how we phase things out.[00:39:43] swyx: Talking about integrations, you prompted me, so I gotta ask. M-C-P-C-L-I. What's going on? What's the[00:39:48] Simon Last: Yeah. Opinion. I think, I mean, I'm, I'm definitely bullish and excited about cli. I think there's a few really cool things about cli. So one really cool thing is like, um, is that it's in the terminal environment, so it gets a bunch of extra power.So it, you know, for example, it can like, like paginating and cursor through like long outputs. Um, and it has a progressive disclosure inherently. Uh, so, you know, you don't see all the tools at once. It's just, you see the CLI wrapper and you can like use the, the help commands and, and, and read files. And then I think the most important thing that's, that's super cool is that there, it's also inherently a, a bootstrapped.So if there's an issue, uh, the agent can debug and fix itself within the same environment that it uses the tool.[00:40:30] swyx: Mm.[00:40:30] Simon Last: Right. Like, you know, I think I saw a tweet this morning. Someone said, you know, my agent didn't have a browser, so I asked it to make all a browser tool and within a hundred lines of code, it gave itself a little browser, like, like wrapping the, the, the chromium API, um.That's pretty incredible. And then if there was a bug, it would just immediately try to fix it. Mm-hmm. Right. On the other hand, if you use an, you know, if you use like of, of the Chrome dev tools, MCP, I've had this issue where like, like sometimes the transport gets like messed up. If it gets messed up, the agent has no way to fix itself.It, it no longer has a browser, it's, it's not broken. Right. I think that's, that's pretty fundamental, but I would say like a lot of the, the bad things about it can be fixed. Uh, so I think like, as a progressive disclosure, that can be fixed with, with right harness. Like, it, it obviously doesn't make sense to show it all the tools all the time.That's not really inherent to the MCP protocol. It's just like how you wrap it and use it.[00:41:16] swyx: There's many poorly built MCPs because we didn't know.[00:41:19] Simon Last: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was just early, like, like the obvious thing is, uh, you know, to start with is, is to just show it all the tools and it's like, okay, now we have a hundred tools.Yeah. And like the tool calling actually works. So let's of[00:41:28] swyx: your success[00:41:29] Simon Last: give it a way to like, like filter to source the tools. So yeah, I would say like broadly speaking, I'm really bullish on cli. I'm still bullish on CPS and in a certain environment. I think in, in particular, CP is really great for when you want sort of like a narrow, lightweight agent.I think there's, there's definitely a lot of use cases where, where you don't want like a full coding agent with a compute run time. And also you want it to be like more tightly permissioned. MCP inherently has a really strong permission model, like all you can do is call the tools. A CLI is a little bit murkier.It's like, can I access the, if PI token are you, like, properly sort of like re-encrypt the token so it can't like exfiltrate it, it introduce a lot of like, like new issues, which are. Real and hard to solve. And MCP is just like the dumb simple thing that works and it that it's pretty good.[00:42:12] Sarah Sachs: I'll add two more perspectives, not from it working well for Notion, but how notion like commits to both platforms.Notion is dedicated to being the best system of record for where people do their enterprise work. So we will always support our MCP and so far as other people are using cps, right? So regardless of our perspective, we've put a lot of effort into our MCP and we have a fantastic team that we're building, um, to do more there.And the second thing I'll say, I think, um, we all think a lot, but lately I've been thinking a lot about making sure there's a value alignment and pricing, um, with capability.[00:42:43] swyx: Literally our next question[00:42:44] Sarah Sachs: and. Needing language to execute deterministic tasks feels wasteful and requiring on a language model to interface with third party providers seems wasteful for tasks that don't require it.And particularly because our custom agents are using usage-based pricing. We think of pricing as like the barrier of entry for use of our product, and we're quite committed to making sure that it's not wasteful. Um, not just because it's a bad deal for our customers, but it's also bad business. We wanna have as many buyers, like there's a, there's an elasticity of demand and so if we can have our agents properly execute code that calls on CLI deterministically, it's a one-time cost, right?Versus constantly having a language model integrate with an MCP over and over and over and paying those like repeated token fees and it's happening outside the cash window, then you're paying for it over and over and over and it's just kind of unnecessary and less deterministic when it doesn't have to be.[00:43:36] Alessio: Yeah, the open-endedness I think is like, the main thing is like, well, if I go write code to just call an API, I would never use an MCP. But then you need an NCP sometimes when you know what to call, but you don't want it to restart versus like, I think the it built a browser from scratch is like, it's great when you're doing it on your own, but like if your customers were having your AI write a browser from scratch every time and you had to pay the token cost of that, yeah.You'd be like, no, no. The Chrome dev tools CP is actually pretty great. Just use that. I'm curious, how do you make that decision? Like should it be. Just straight API call very narrow. Should it be an MCP? Should it be super open-ended?[00:44:10] Sarah Sachs: Do you mean for when we ship notion capabilities or when we add capabilities to[00:44:13] Alessio: notion[00:44:14] Sarah Sachs: AI or,[00:44:14] Alessio: I mean, you might have a capability that the only way to do is an open-ended agent, like an agent with a coding sandbox.[00:44:21] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. In Notion ai they're not explicit, not We also ship an MCP.[00:44:24] Alsesio: Yeah. Yeah. In B,[00:44:25] Sarah Sachs: yeah.[00:44:26] Alsesio: Internally. Okay. Like is there ever a discussion of like, we're not gonna ship it because we're not able to tie it down? Or are you happy to just like,[00:44:33] Sarah Sachs: um, no. I mean, there are a lot of things where we choose not to use MCP because we wanna add more high touch to quality.I think search an agent to find is like the largest instance of that, where we have. Um, slack and linear and Jira search and notion that is not using necessarily the search MCP functionality that is provided by those companies. And that's because it's quite critical we think, to how our agent trajectories work is for us to have a little bit more control on the functionality of the search journey.And so it usually comes from quality and there's a long tail of things and that's why we built an MCP client or an MCP server, excuse me, so that people can connect whatever they want. There's that long tail, right. But we, for search particularly, I would say that's like the primary entry point, but there are other connections as well that it's a little bit of secret sauce a

In this month's journal club episode, we tackle a topic every EMS educator and clinician wrestles with: how do you honor a patient's end-of-life wishes when they call 911? We unpack a structured review of U.S. EMS protocols and the wide variation in what counts as a valid Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order, from physician-signed forms to bracelets, POLST-style documents, and even verbal orders. We'll discuss how these differences can lead to moral distress and affect goal-concordant care, and why understanding the nuances of DNR documentation matters for field providers, system leaders, and anyone who wants to ensure patient wishes are respected in the out-of-hospital setting.

Ken Carman and Anthony Lima take you through what you may have missed About Last Night!

Ken Carman and Anthony Lima discuss the Cleveland Browns' loss to the Chicago Bears, and why the Browns' latest episode of "gofy football" means it's time to move on from the current regime.

Ken Carman and Anthony Lima address Kevin Stefanski's answer on a supposed wristband issue for Shedeur Sanders, who struggled on an icy Sunday in Chicago.

We have a HUGE show announcement at the end of today's pod - and no: you're not allowed to skip ahead. On today's show: Wristband gate, Oprah is in Australia, Friendmas..........plus so much more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, we talk about the connection between sleep (or lack thereof), screens, and spiritual apathy. Kelly walks through five ways screens contribute to sleep deprivation and how children and teens who are sleep deprived are more likely to experience poor mental health, among other negative outcomes. More important for Christian parents is the spiritual apathy that arises in kids who are sleep-deprived. In this episode, you will learn how sleep is both biblical and necessary for children’s and teens’ spiritual health. Armed with this knowledge, you will be encouraged and equipped to make changes to your family structure to reprioritize sleep, remove screens from the bedroom, and reinforce the biblical importance of getting enough rest. SHOP our Wristbands and Other Merch! Articles referenced: Teens & Sleep: The Hidden Cost of Sleep Deprivation How to help your child get enough healthy brain-boosting sleep Teens with insomnia who lack sleep may be at risk for high blood pressure The Critical Connection between Teens' Sleep and Mental Health Contemporary Screen Time Modalities among Children 9–10 years old and Binge-Eating Disorder at One-Year Follow-Up: A Prospective Cohort Study Sleep in High School Students Maybe the teen mental health crisis is actually a sleep crisis Scripture referenced: Psalm 121:3-4 Genesis 2:2-3 Mathew 11:29 Psalm 62:1 Psalm 23:2-3 Psalm 116:7 Psalm 46:10 Psalm 3:5 Psalm 4:8 Psalm 127:2 1 Peter 1:13, 4:7, 5:8 2 Samuel 11:2-3 Luke 22:45-46, 50, 52 Book a Speaking Event!! Buy the NEWLY UPDATED book: Managing Media Creating Character (2024 Revised & Updated) Get Kelly’s new Study Guide & Workbook, with video teachings for small groups. Check out our brand new Brave Parenting Merch Sign up for the Brave Bullet Points newsletter! This helps us communicate what’s happening without social media – a win for everyone!

RAGBRAI Ride Director Matt Phippen and BikeIowa's Scott Sumpter sat down to do a mega deep dive into what's behind the RAGBRAI wristband, breaking down the costs of what it takes to make RAGBRAI happen, and what it takes to get riders safely across the state each year. They also talk in detail about the value associated with your registration. We know the basics that registration covers like the State Patrol Troopers at intersections, and the Care Ambulance medical teams on route but there is so much more! You can find even more details in the BikeIowa article: https://www.bikeiowa.com/Feature/2107/behind-the-wristband-the-true-cost-of-ragbrai RAGBRAI: www.ragbrai.com Just Go Bike: https://ragbrai.com/justgobike/ Watch, or listen on our Just Go Bike YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@JustGoBikePodcast Have a topic for a future episode? Message us at justgobikepodcast@gmail.com. Registration for RAGBRAI LIII is open! https://ragbrai.com/registration/

Andrew Bogusch is back. Hear why Giants coach Mike Kafka is focusing on the positive in a loss, the biggest takeaways from Sunday's NFL slate, and why Boomer hates QB wristbands! Plus, Draymond Green blasts a fan who called him Angel Reese, and we cap it all off with the Moment of the Day: You just can't count on C-Lo!

Have you ever wondered what would happen if you give a former NFL QB 2 hours of radio in one dau? This show makes that happen with former 12-Year NFL Veteran Scott Mitchell from 10-11am on ESPN 700 & 92.1 FM and 1-2pm on 103.9 & 98.3 ESPN The Fan. Scott w

In this episode, Conor Grennan and Jaeden discuss the resurgence of Metaglasses, the challenges of technology demos, and the innovative Neural Band that enhances communication. They explore the implications of these advancements on social interactions and the future of wearable tech.AI Applied YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AI-Applied-PodcastTry AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiConor's AI Course: https://www.ai-mindset.ai/coursesConor's AI Newsletter: https://www.ai-mindset.ai/Jaeden's AI Hustle Community: https://www.skool.com/aihustleYouTube Video: https://youtu.be/wlLUrLDs5CsChapters00:00 The Return of Metaglasses02:36 Zuckerberg's Demo and the Glitches05:23 The Neural Band: A Game Changer08:21 The Promise of Presence with Smart Glasses11:20 Conclusion and Future Innovations

CNET's Scott Stein goes hands-on with Meta's newest lineup of smart glasses, including the Meta Ray-Ban Display Glasses and the next-gen Ray-Ban Meta. He also gets to try out the new neural wristband, which uses electromyography (EMG) to detect subtle muscle movements, offering a glimpse into the future of how we'll interact with augmented reality.

CNET's Scott Stein goes hands-on with Meta's newest lineup of smart glasses, including the Meta Ray-Ban Display Glasses and the next-gen Ray-Ban Meta. He also gets to try out the new neural wristband, which uses electromyography (EMG) to detect subtle muscle movements, offering a glimpse into the future of how we'll interact with augmented reality.

How do you go from a cultural icon like the yellow wristbands to building AI products?  Livestrong's CEO Suzanne Stone argues that the through line is a focus on survivorship, the life you live from diagnosis onward. This is the leap from story to community to software and back again.Highlights01:34 Mission: Survivorship Over Cures06:18 The Wristband as Community Signal12:39 Fertility Program and Real Cost of Cancer14:34 Copycats and What Persists 25:20 From Guidebook to Ellis, a Trusted Closed-Loop AI38:56 Guardrails, Swim Lanes, and Safety51:35 Revenue Engines and Scaling01:02:40 What's Next Austin? Guest BioSuzanne Stone is a Texas Christian University graduate and Louisiana native whose career began in television, earning a regional Emmy Award for her work in Dallas. In 1998, she transitioned from producing television to teaching it in the nonprofit sector, leading public access television initiatives in Naperville, Illinois, and later in upstate New York.Beyond media, Suzanne spent four years as Head Coach of a New York Community college women's basketball team while simultaneously managing a local TV station. Her passion for impact-driven work led her back to Texas, where she has since dedicated her career to leading nonprofit organizations across the state, including Court Appointed Special Advocates (CASA), Children's Miracle Network, Lake Travis Education Foundation, and Susan G. Komen Greater Central and East Texas.In 2019, she joined Livestrong to spearhead its mission initiatives, and in November 2023, she was named President & CEO. Today, she leads the organization in its commitment to ensuring that anyone affected by cancer has the resources and support they need to live the highest quality of life possible, regardless of the diagnosis.Guest LinksSuzanne Stone: LinkedInLivestrong: Website, X, Ellis, Livestrong Challenge 2025 -------------------Austin Next Links: Website, X/Twitter, YouTube, LinkedInEcosystem Metacognition Substack

 1. Sony Increases PS5 Console Prices In The US  Meta Quest News 2. Spatial Phone Lets You Use Your iPhone Or Android While Immersed On Quest 3. Hauntify On Quest 3 Now Uses Lasertag's Continuous Scene Meshing 4. Meta Delists Quest App That Let You Install APKs Without A PC 5. Meta CTO Gives Update On Quest 3's Long-Delayed Augments Feature  visionOS Media Watching Environments 6. Disney+ On Apple Vision Pro Gets Alien: Earth Environment 7. Hogwarts Great Hall Opens To HBO Max Subscribers On Apple Vision Pro  8. Vivo Vision Is 40% Lighter Than Apple Vision Pro & "Could" Be 1/3 The Price  Meta Smart Glasses News 9. Oakley Meta HSTN Glasses Preorders Open, Shipping Next Week 10. Meta To Reportedly Sell HUD Glasses With EMG Wristband For $800 11. Why Meta's First HUD Glasses Will Only Have A Display In One Eye

Send us a textIn Episode 142, we sit down with Kayla & Stefan from Wristband, one of Cayman's most popular carnival bands. They share the story of Wristband's creation,  the challenges behind the scenes with CAYMAS, and why they took 2025 off the road.We cover everything from committee politics, stormers, One Carnival, and the real cost of getting on the road. If you love Cayman Carnival or want to understand the business, this is a must listen. Support the show

Show Notes 15 August 2025Story 1: Meta researchers are developing a gesture-controlled wristband that can interact with a computerSource: TechCrunch.comLink: https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/23/meta-researchers-are-developing-a-gesture-controlled-wristband-that-can-interact-with-a-computer/Find the research paper here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09255-wStory 2: First standard production tire with over 70% bio-based and recycled materialsSource: Pirelli News ReleaseLink: https://press.pirelli.com/pirelli-first-standard-production-tyre-with-over-70-bio-based-and-recycled-materials/#_ftn1Story 3: Who-Fi: An AI-Powered Wi-Fi Technology That Can Identify and Track Individuals Without CamerasSource: Gadgets360.comLink: https://www.gadgets360.com/internet/news/whofi-wifi-technology-ai-tracking-biometric-signals-behind-walls-without-cameras-study-8949928See also: https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/wifi-fingerprint-ai-tracking-without-deviceSee research paper here: https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.12869Story 4: Scientists create first mini lungs with built-in blood vessels, unlocking new insights for pulmonary vascular diseaseSource: MedicalXpress.comLink: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2025-07-scientists-mini-lungs-built-blood.htmlSee also: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/scientists-create-first-mini-lungs-built-blood-vessels-unlocking-new-insights-pulmonarySee research paper here: https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(25)00628-2Honorable MentionsStory: Scientists develop game-changing method to make use of walnut and pistachio shells [to make biomass fuel]Source: The Cool Down via MSNLink: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/scientists-develop-game-changing-method-to-make-use-of-walnut-and-pistachio-shells-a-significant-step-forward/ar-AA1HFuM5Story: World's most advanced haptic gloves bring real-time touch into virtual realitySource: Timesofinnovation.comLink: https://timesofinnovation.com/ai-in-healthcare/worlds-most-advanced-haptic-gloves-bring-real-time-touch-into-virtual-reality/Story: US firm to build 3,275°F brick battery to decarbonize steel and cement plantsSource: InterestingEngineering.comLink: https://interestingengineering.com/energy/mass-produce-heat-storing-electric-bricksStory: Smarter flow simulation model for analyzing blood flow in brain aneurysms improves efficiency and accuracySource: MedicalXpress.comLink: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2025-07-smarter-simulation-blood-brain-aneurysms.html

Scott Kirsner, a columnist from our editorial partner MassLive, joins WBUR's Morning Edition to discuss the feud. 

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based texting service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based texting service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Sports Geek Rapid Rundown is a daily sports business podcast curated by Sports Geek Reads. We publish it on Sports Geek twice per week. In this episode: Discover insider strategies for effective sponsored content from the NY Mets, Google's $71.3B ad revenue with AI innovations, Roku's exclusive Eagles documentary, Meta's muscle-sensing wristband tech, Packers' record $719M revenue, and NY Giants' creator series - all curated by Sports Geek Reads. Subscribe at https://sportsgeekhq.com/rapidrundown.

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based texting service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based texting service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

Dan Moren joins Mikah Sargent for this episode of Tech News Weekly! A zero-day bug was discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint. T-Mobile's new satellite texting service, T-Satellite. Apple announces AppleCare One. And Meta's Reality Labs published new papers on the latest advancements in its wrist-based controllers. Mikah shares details about the zero-day bug discovered in Microsoft's SharePoint on Monday, which affected over 400 organizations worldwide. Jeff Carlson of CNET spent some time using T-Mobile's new satellite-based service, T-Satellite, and shares his thoughts on the company's Starlink-based service. Dan Moren talks about Apple's latest iteration of its device coverage program, AppleCare One, a $19.99/month subscription that covers up to three devices of your choice. Breaking news as Apple's iOS 26 Public Beta arrives Thursday morning! And Mikah talks about the latest on Meta's wrist-based controllers that use surface electromyography (sEMG) to allow you to interact with paired devices. Hosts: Mikah Sargent and Dan Moren Guest: Jeff Carlson Download or subscribe to Tech News Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/tech-news-weekly. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsor: zocdoc.com/tnw

- Will Zimmerle, SI KIngs - James Ham, The Insiders, 1320 Kings Insider & The Kings Beat

Wristband that provides relief for upper limb tremor is approved; FDA warns of clinically significant weight loss in younger kids taking ADHD meds; REMS removed for CAR T-cell immunotherapies; treatment approved for lung cancer patients with EGFR exon20 insertion mutations; and CDC committee recommends removing preservative from flu vaccines.

Your next chance to win is tomorrow at 7:20am!

What if your childhood love for roller coasters could lead you to build a national empire of amusement parks? If you're leading a business—or dreaming of scaling one—you'll want to hear how John Dunlap, CEO of Five Star Parks & Attractions, turned a hospitality background and a Six Sigma mindset into a high-growth, family-focused entertainment powerhouse. In a post-COVID world with rising labor costs and shifting consumer demands, John shares real-world strategies for thriving in a category many thought was on the decline. Here's what you'll get from this episode: A playbook for balancing operational excellence with guest experience, including how Six Sigma translates to human-centered businesses. The secrets behind scaling through acquisition and development, especially in a fragmented market ripe for consolidation. How to compete with big-name parks by delivering affordable, high-value local experiences that build loyalty (and beat the weather). Hit play now to learn how John turned a childhood game into a national strategy—and how you can apply the same principles to scale your own business with purpose. Check out: [09:32] – From Starwood to San Diego Zoo: The Unlikely Career Pivot John shares how a Six Sigma background in hospitality led him to a surprising call from the San Diego Zoo—and how that jump-started his journey into the world of theme parks and cultural attractions. [26:47] – Solving Seasonality: Why Indoor Parks Became a Strategic Hedge Discover how John and his team countered brutal off-seasons by acquiring massive indoor entertainment centers—and what that did for cash flow, customer base, and geographic reach. [52:10] – Wristbands, VIP Packages, and the Art of Bundling for Value John breaks down their evolving pricing strategy, including how “best value” and “best experience” bundles are designed to fight inflation, increase revenue, and give families more reason to return. About John Dunlap John Dunlap is the CEO of Five Star Parks & Attractions, a rapidly expanding family entertainment company. Since taking on the role in January 2022, he has led the company's growth from three locations to 27 across 13 states. With a background in amusement and hospitality leadership, John has held executive positions at SeaWorld & Sesame Place in California, Iconic Attractions Group, and the San Diego Zoo. He holds degrees from the University of Virginia and Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management, along with executive certifications from Cornell University. Based in Charlotte, NC, John is passionate about creating memorable guest experiences and fostering a culture of innovation in the industry.

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Your next chance to WIN is tomorrow at 9:20am!

Your next chance to WIN is tomorrow at 7:20am!

Is there something in your life right now that is irritating you, vexing you, making your life uncomfortable? Something happened last week to Chris' son. He came to a realization about a wristband he was forced to wear during a competition. And upon reflection, he realized the truth about that wristband. Don't miss the encouragement on Chris Fabry Live. For more information about the work of Care Net, click here. Chris Fabry Live is listener-supported. To support the program, click here.Become a Back Fence Partner: https://moodyradio.org/donateto/chrisfabrylive/partnersSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Vidcast:  https://www.instagram.com/reel/DIxJktKs5gR/Those suffering from essential tremors and wearing a wristband powered by artificial intelligence saw nearly three times the improvement in their ability to complete daily tasks compared to those wearing a sham device.  These promising results of the so-called TRANQUIL study of the Felix NeuroAI wristband were presented by University of Kansas neurologists to this year's American Academy of Neurology (AAN) meeting.The wristband delivers gentle electrical stimulation to nerves in the wrist and uses AI to adapt in real time to the user's tremor patterns.  During a randomized, double-blinded 90-day trial with 125 patients at 10 sites in the U.S. and China, those using the device scored significantly higher than control subjects on activities of daily living performance assessments.  The only side effect reported was mild skin irritation.This wristband remains under FDA review, but these early results are promising.   Once approved and available for patients, it will be a safe, non-invasive, and personalized option that could work alongside traditional medications avoiding the need for neurosurgery.https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/ai-powered-wearable-calms-essential-tremor-2025a10008kp?ecd=a2ahttps://www.neurologylive.com/view/felix-neuroai-wristband-demonstrates-superiority-over-sham-device-tranquil-study-essential-tremor#essentialtremor #ai #wristband #electrical

Wristbands, faff, pepper spray = watching football in France. Disgraceful (and we don't mean Onana's keeping). The independent, satirical Manchester United supporters' fanzine - for adults only, contains expletives, talks MUFC, or not at times, as the lads are in France being treated like naughty kids just to watch United.

A man in Yokohama Japan created “Tonight’s Wristband,” with a set of color-coded wristbands that indicate your mood...Steve Harvey Morning Show Online: http://www.steveharveyfm.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If I were playing right now, I Would Be A Wristband Guy.  Changing wristbands help you to flip the switch.

The Lost Boys Musical: They are redoing the Lost Boys as a Broadway musical, what a match made in heaven since one of it's stars is a musical phenom! The Orange Bit: Corey gets crazy on his X account when he makes a joke about abandoned oranges and immigration. Is the joke just about free oranges? Corey And DØVYDÅS: Another blast from the past as DØVYDÅS recently posted a terrible live performance he had with Corey Feldman last year. We also give out some first superchat names and you don't want to miss them! COREY FELDMAN!, SHOW STOPPER!, LET'S JUST TALK!, DON CHEADLE!, BOOGIE NIGHTS!, REAL ONES!, AIDS PISS!, SCHWEPPES!, WHERE'S JEFF!?, AIM!, INSTANT MESSAGES!, HOSTAGE!, COREY FELDMAN!, JAKE PERRY!, JEFF!, ASSAULT!, JEFF'S VOICE!, OBAMNA SOUND!, NANCY!, STAXX!, KNUCKLE TATTS!, HOODIE ON POINT!, TATTOOS!, ESCAPE FROM THE WILDFIRES!, CLUB 33 HAT!, MELODRAMA!, I WILL SURVIVE!, LOST BOYS!, MUSICAL!, PATRICK WILSON!, CONJURING!, DONALD TRUMP!, IMMIGRATION!, RAPTURE!, DEPORTATION!, ORANGES!, BIT!, JOKE!, TWITTER FIGHT!, RESPONSES!, ORANGES R FREE!, METHINKS IT'S ABOUT TO GET CRAZY!, FAIREST PODCAST!, TERRIBLE JOKE!, DOVYDAS!, LOOPER!, NAMM!, MUSIC CONVENTION!, PERFORMANCE!, BILLY CORGAN PODCAST!, GENE SIMMONS!, TOM MORELLO!, PRESS RELEASE!, BODYGUARD!, UGLY!, GROSS!, HILARIOUS!, BEETHOVEN TURNED INTO A MAN!, DRESS REHEARSAL!, COMEBACK KING!, VIP PASSES!, WRISTBANDS!, CAN'T DANCE!, STANDING!, OUT OF TUNE!, CAN'T PLAY!, WALK AWAY!, MICRODOSING!, SELF AWARE!, DRUM BEAT!, DEBIT CARD!, HE DID THE BIT!, COREY DID THE BIT!, CELEBRITY HOUSE HUNTERS!, BODYGUARD!, DRE!, FIRST SUPERCHAT NAME!, SONG!, NEW BIT!  You can find the videos from this episode at our Discord RIGHT HERE!

The Mudra Link wristband lets you control devices with arm and hand gestures, and it will work with TCL's RayNeo X3 Pro smart glasses.

The Mudra Link wristband lets you control devices with arm and hand gestures, and it will work with TCL's RayNeo X3 Pro smart glasses.

Checkout our latest Instagram post for photo's of the socks and Wristbands!

Joe Kirby's wife Emma shares her amazing testimony of how God saved her from atheism and led her to the Lord Jesus Christ.Of the Kirb Ministries Christian testimony of faith.

A Repeal to Ridicule - To Chill a MockingbirdWebsite: http://www.battle4freedom.com/Network: https://www.mojo50.comStreaming: https://www.rumble.com/Battle4Freedomhttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2014%3A9&version=TLVProverbs 14:9Fools mock guilt of sin, but among the upright is goodwill.https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-RidiculeAppeal to Ridiculereductio ad ridiculum(also known as: appeal to mockery, the horse laugh)Description: Presenting the argument in such a way that makes the argument look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or the use of exaggeration.https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201206/think-sarcasm-is-funny-think-againThink Sarcasm is Funny? Think AgainKey pointsLike spices in cooking, sarcasm is best used in moderation. Too much will overwhelm the emotional flavor of a conversation.When a person is consistently sarcastic, it may only serve to heighten their own underlying hostility.Clever wit, as opposed to sarcasm, is usually devoid of hostility and thus more appreciated by others.A True Christian would not impose their values on anyone else?Voting 3rd Party is a Wasted Vote!Following Torah, are you going to start sacrificing animals again?Driving a foreign car is unpatriotic or a gas-guzzler is barbaric!April Fools Day is National Atheists Day!Psalm 2:4He who sits in heaven laughs! Adonai mocks them.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2018%3A27&version=TLV1 Kings 18:27Now when it was about noon, Elijah mocked them and said, "Shout louder! After all, he is a god! Maybe he's deep in thought, or he's relieving himself, or he's off on a journey, or perhaps he's asleep and must wake up!"https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2035&version=TLVPsalm 35:1, 4-5, 16-171 A psalm of David. Adonai, oppose those who oppose me. Fight those who fight me.4 May those who seek my life be ashamed and disgraced. May they be turned back and humiliated —those who plot evil against me. 5 May they be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of Adonai driving them off. 16 They mocked profanely, as if at a feast, they gnashed at me with their teeth. 17 My Lord, how long will You look on?Rescue my soul from their ravages—https://babylonbee.com/news/what-will-the-mark-of-the-beast-be-here-are-17-possibilitiesWhat Will The Mark of the Beast Be? Here are 17 PossibilitiesStarbucks holiday cup - If you've gotten a peppermint mocha latte this November, it may already be too late for you.Disney+ subscription - Was it really worth it just to watch The Mandalorian?Jamba Juice rewards punch card - When the 7th punch resounds, the Lord shall come again.Man buns - Followers of the Beast are easy to spot, and gross.Crocs - These holey abominations are, ironically, unholy.The 1982 Iron Maiden album The Number of the Beast - Kinda obvious, in retrospect. Better burn your copy on a bonfire and pick up some DC Talk before it's too late!Fanny packs - Dad goes looking for convenience and winds up a disciple of the Antichrist. Tale as old as time.Any Halloween decoration at your home - Your wife may have thought that cute inflatable pumpkin was innocent, but she was really giving your home over to the Enemy.The 1978 D&D Dungeon Master Guide - The later editions took out the Mark of the Beast microchips, so they are safe.Apple Watch - When firmware update 6.66 hit, that should have been your first clue.Any Los Angeles Dodgers gear - Obviously.Wristband from Taylor Swift's Eras Tour - Obviously.Ticket stub from The Marvels - This movie is woke garbage, and if you saw it, you have clearly been given over to Satan. Especially if you didn't think it was woke garbage.A high ESG score - A strong diversity rating means you can participate in the economy, but oh no! You're Satanic.Your finely tuned, perfectly balanced hybrid aggro/control deck in Magic the Gathering - Hope you're happy that it won the FNM tourney. You can revel in your victory IN HELL.Pokemon Go - Does anyone still play this? Yes. Devil worshipers do.The 666 tattoo on your hand and forehead the Biden administration will soon make you get to buy or sell goods - Kinda a gimme, but we suspect this one will be the Mark of the Beast for sure.Q: "Are we laughing because we are correct or G_d is correct?"https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2021%3A24&version=TLVProverbs 21:24A proud and haughty man —Mocker is his name— acts with overbearing pride.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2074%3A18&version=TLVPsalm 74:18Remember how the enemy mocked, Adonai, and how foolish people despised Your Name.Credit to:https://unsplash.com/@aaronburden (snowflake) https://unsplash.com/@jcotten (mockingbird)https://unsplash.com/@thebeardbe (snowy street)https://www.pexels.com/@ann-h-45017/ (Sneakers and ?)https://www.pexels.com/@robbkeens/ (cellphone)

This week Stormy discusses ending a 6year relationship, baggage, trying different dating pools & MORE!!!JOIN THE SQUAD!!!!!www.patreon.com/ChocolateChipAndSip Check out the website and become a sponsor or guest at:www.StormyPea.comFollow at:@ChocolateChipAndSip@StormyPeaA

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