Podcasts about happy cog

As the seasons of our careers change, so does our perspective on the work we do and the lives we lead. This heartfelt discussion with Greg, my dear friend and former owner of Happy Cog, not only traces his professional voyage from the boutique agency world to the corporate colossus of IBM Design, but it also unravels the beauty of midlife career introspection. Embracing change, Greg has moved from leading companies to imparting wisdom through coaching, a journey that mirrors my own pivot towards fitness and mental health coaching, where the reward lies in guiding others to their zenith. Join us for a reflective and thought-provoking episode where we celebrate the rich tapestry of our past experiences, while keeping an eager eye on the horizon. We revel in discussions about the legends who've shaped our industry, touching on the privilege of choosing our own adventures and the vitality of continuous engagement with our creative endeavors. Sharing personal anecdotes from our transitions, like my leap from print to digital media, we underscore the essence of maintaining a grasp on the tools and trades that keep our work grounded and genuine. This episode is also a candid exploration of the complexities of the workplace, from the integration of AI to the dynamics of leadership. We debate the current resistance to remote work models, advocate for leadership that empowers and supports, and tackle the tough emotional realities of decision-making, like firing employees. Whether you're a seasoned vet or just starting out, there's wisdom here for anyone navigating the undulating paths of their professional landscape. Join us and take away invaluable insights that will enrich your approach to work and life. --------- EPISODE CHAPTERS --------- (0:00:01) - Reflecting on Careers and Taking Stock (0:16:51) - The Future of Design and Aging (0:22:34) - Continuous Learning and Fundamental Practices (0:28:02) - Training and Tool Skills for Success (0:34:46) - Virtual Teams and Office Dynamics (0:43:57) - Remote Work and Leadership Accountability Debate (0:51:16) - Leadership and AI in the Workplace (1:01:38) - The Challenges of Firing Employees --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/warriormindset/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/warriormindset/support

Summary: This episode is part of our Celebrating Black History Month podcast series where students in the Sustainable Urban Planning program at the George Washington University interview Black and African American planners and urbanists. In this episode, graduate student Ugonna Njeze interviews Lakeshia Wright, AICP, on what equitable urban planning looks like and how to support people of color in the field of urban planning. They discuss skills planners can add to their equity toolkits to promote meaningful change for minority communities. Lakeshia shares her personal journey as a woman of color in the field of urban planning, providing insights on finding joy, overcoming barriers, and using your voice. Highlights from the Conversation: Career milestones Understanding unconscious biases and cognitive dissonance Navigating contentious topics Inclusive urbanism Challenging the silo mentality Creating a culture of respect Building your network Advice for emerging professionals Impacts of technology on people of color Guest Mini Bio: Lakeshia Wright, AICP, is an urban planner, UX researcher, and data disrupter currently working as a senior UX researcher and strategist at Happy Cog. Connect with her on LinkedIn or get in touch via email. Learn More! On biases: 2021 American Planning Association (APA) blog: The Continued Challenges of Bias and Discrimination Within Planning Education Equitable urban development case studies: APA's Equity in Practice Using data and technology for equitable planning: Greenlink Equity Map: Community of Practice Credits: A special thanks to guest speaker Lakeshia Wright Interview by Ugonna Njeze Intro and outro by Alex Davis Produced by Reagan Smith

Dan is a husband, dad, teacher, creative director, designer, founder, and entrepreneur from Philadelphia. During the start of his career, Dan found himself amongst the people at the forefront of the web standards movement. In our conversation we talked about his career, the people who influenced him, the various eras of his design firm SuperFriendly, and his personal mission to create better opportunities for those who wouldn't have them otherwise.

Ryan is joined in this episode by co-founder and president of Happy Cog, Matt Weinberg. Matt founded his company in high school alongside a friend and they ‘bootstrapped' their way to huge profitability. They now serve a variety of high value clients and are also one of the fastest growing private companies in the US. Matt talks to Ryan all about what it took to build the company, what they do there and why their ethos of simply keeping their clients happy is how they have achieved their extraordinarily high referral rate! KEY TAKEAWAYS Happy Cog's go-to-market strategy is heavily weighted to referrals. They have lots of happy clients and they are happy to recommend them time and time again. Happy Cog are full service interactive agency, they help companies solve all their digital needs. Their core services are web development, native app development, software integration, design, content strategy and marketing including seo, paid media and everything that goes along with it. Sometimes clients hire them for just one thing but many times they hire for a multitude of solutions. Matt and his friend started their first business in high school, it developed into them going into offices and helping them set up hardware and software and offering business solutions. They quickly realised that the internet was growing like crazy, that this would be the future and so started helping small businesses with the online world. They both went to college and got ‘normal' full time jobs but they would work on their business on the side, as the business got bigger they quit their day jobs and the rest is history! Part of dealing with the growth Matt has seen in the business is having to do continual process changes. As the company and operations have got bigger, things have had to change to keep the clients happy. Constantly re-evaluating how good a job they are doing to keep the clients happy is why they have such a high referral rate. Happy Cog are in the clients service business. Their job is to help their clients achieve their business goal. They need to help their clients create more value than what they are paying them otherwise there is little point in hiring them. They align themselves alongside their clients' business goals to create ultimate success and client satisfaction. When you are talking about creative work, it's hard to separate emotion from logic. It's important to understand your clients emotions towards things especially surrounding decisions. Listen to your clients and be transparent about what you believe will and won't work for them and then show them why. Happy Cog's goals for the future is to stay sustainable, by doing great things for their clients, for their employees and remaining cash flow positive so they can continue to grow and do great things.   BEST MOMENTS “Our development department is about 65% of our revenue” “If we make our clients happy, I strongly believe they will tell their friends about us and we'll get more business” “What's valuable for them [the clients], what makes it a success?” "if we do great things for our clients, for our employees and we're cash flow positive then we can have a sustainable business" Do You Want The Closing Secrets That Helped Close Over $125 Million in New Business for Free?"  Grab them HERE: https://www.whalesellingsystem.com/closingsecrets   Ryan Staley Founder and CEO Whale Boss 312-848-7443 ryan@whalesellingsystem.com www.ryanstaley.io    EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewweinberg/ ABOUT THE SHOW How do you grow like a VC backed company without taking on investors? Do you want to create a lifestyle business, a performance business or an empire? How do you scale to an exit without losing your freedom? Join the host Ryan Staley every Monday and Wednesday for conversations with the brightest and best Founders, CEO's and Entrepreneurs to crack the code on repeatable revenue growth, leadership, lifestyle freedom and mindset. This show has featured Startup and Billion Dollar Founders, Best Selling Authors, and the World's Top Sales and Marketing Experts like Terry Jones (Founder of Travelocity and Chairman of Kayak), Andrew Gazdecki (Founder of Micro Acquire), Harpaul Sambhi (Founder of Magical with a previous exit to Linkedin) and many more. This is where Scaling and Sales are made simple in 25 minutes or less. Support the show: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-staley/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Brett Harned formed the Bureau of Digital and founded the Digital PM Summit, which was the first annual digital project managers conference. He is also a Digital Project Management Consultant at Digital PM Consulting, LLC, where he works with teams to build processes and communication tactics that work for their projects, people, and clients. Brett has worked with major clients such as the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Zappos, MTV, Alaska Air, and the Philadelphia Museum of Art, to name a few. Brett's previous roles include Director of Education at TeamGantt, Vice President of Project Management at Happy Cog, and Senior PM at Razorfish. Today, he speaks at events all over the world, writes for popular websites and publications, and can be heard on his podcast, Sprints & Milestones. He is the author of Project Management for Humans, which was published in July 2017. In this episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast, John Corcoran is joined by Brett Harned, the Founder of the Digital PM Summit, to talk about project management. Brett discusses the origin of the Bureau of Digital, building the community, the best practices of putting together events, and tools in the digital project management space today. He also shares how he got a community of leaders together, some of the people who helped make his projects possible, and how you can be a good community citizen.

Lisa Maria Marquis encourages us to be better designers by thinking more deeply about the decisions we're making and their potential for harm. Highlights include: - What shocking and harmful IA decision did a dead racist make? - Why is Information Architecture undervalued and under-practiced? - How do we actively build a safe and trusting relationship with users? - Why do non-binary gender categories cause some people to lose their minds? - Is it possible for us to completely avoid our work causing harm? ====== Who is Lisa Maria Marquis? Lisa is the Principal of “The Future is Like Pie”, an independent Information Architecture and Content Strategy consultancy that's on a mission to make it easier for people to find, understand, and act on information on the web. Through her consultancy, Lisa regularly works with well-known agencies, such as Happy Cog and Brain Traffic. She also works directly with organisations such as Autodesk, the University of California, and Egghead.io. Lisa is also the author of “Everyday Information Architecture”, an amazing book that shows you how to leverage the principles and practices of IA, and the Managing Editor of A Book Apart, a highly respected publisher of books for designers, developers and content creators. ====== Find Lisa here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/redsesame/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/redsesame/  Website: https://thefutureislikepie.com/ Lisa's book: Everyday Information Architecture: https://abookapart.com/products/everyday-information-architecture ====== Liked what you heard and want to hear more? Subscribe and support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you listen). Follow us on our other social channels for more great Brave UX content! YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/TheSpaceInBetween/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-space-in-between/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespaceinbetw__n/  ====== Hosted by Brendan Jarvis: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanjarvis/ Website: https://thespaceinbetween.co.nz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/brendanjarvis/

In this episode, your host, Jeff Ford talks to Happy Cog's Matthew Weinberg about opportunities, caring, diversity, and more. Check out Matthew's website here: https://www.happycog.com/

Ep #20 - Matt Weinberg, the President of Happy Cog (formerly Vector Media Group), joins me on the show for an interview to discuss his experience scaling his digital design & marketing agency to 8-figures and hitting the Inc 5000 List seven consecutive times from 2013-2018. Happy Cog did $13M in revenue in 2018 with 51 employees. The company was founded when Matt and his co-founder were still in high school. In today's conversation, we get into Matt's strategy for building a digital agency model during a time when companies like Squarespace and Wix have made website creation easier than ever for people. You'll hear Matt's business philosophies, the market segment that Happy Cog serves, and nuggets of wisdom he's learned through his journey. You won't want to miss this.  Learn More About Matt Weinberg and Happy Cog: Visit the Happy Cog website at: https://www.happycog.com/ Follow Matt Weinberg and Happy Cog on Social Media: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewweinberg/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mrw Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happycog Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happycog/ Please remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. Your support and reviews are important and help us to grow and improve the show. Follow Charles Gaudet on Social Media: Facebook: Facebook.com/PredictableProfits Instagram: Instagram.com/PredictableProfits Twitter: Twitter.com/CharlesGaudet LinkedIn: Linkedin.com/in/CharlesGaudet Visit Charles Gaudet's Wesbites: www.PredictableProfits.com www.Beyond7Figures.com Get a copy of Charles Gaudet's book, "The Predictable Profits Playbook," at: www.PredictableProfitsPlaybook.com  

In this final episode of his first season, instead of an interview, Stephen is reflecting on the revelations from his guests, in particular the episodes featuring Jeremy Daalder of Image Science and Lee Goldberg of Happy Cog. (If you haven’t tuned in to them already, they’re really worth a listen.) He also talks about why he continues to be such a huge fan of Craft Commerce and his thoughts on the future of Craft Commerce. On a side note—Stephen will be talking at the Dot All Conference, the official Craft CMS conference held in Montreal, September 18-20, 2019. Key takeaways: The great things about Craft Commerce for developers How Craft Commerce are improving their offerings How CraftCMS compares to Shopify Why Craft should promote its agencies beyond the Craft partners’ page The importance of email marketing for ecommerce vendors URLs/resources/social media links: devMode.fm with Andrew Welch Mailchimp Klayvio

Lee Goldberg is President at Happy Cog, an award-winning, full-service digital agency which he runs with his childhood friend, Matt Weinberg. Lee shares some golden nuggets about conversion rate optimization. Lee and Matt were close friends since they were five. They went to elementary school together, grew up in the same town, and before they graduated high school, they had already started their business. They tried to juggle the business with their post-graduation full-time jobs, but ultimately decided “to hell with it.” With no formal business plan, they went all out, and haven’t looked back since. Their success has been purely organic: they realized that happy clients breed more happy clients, and they’ve been holding the same philosophy since. Today, Happy Cog offers web development, design & branding, and digital marketing services. Tune in to hear Lee’s conversion rate optimization tips and where many businesses go wrong with their sales funnels. Key takeaways: Every business and industry is different, but the fundamentals of business and marketing success are the same. At its core, conversion rate optimization is about removing doubt at every stage. It is possible to compete against the big players, but only with the right strategy. Content is still king and one of the best ways to reach users at the top of the funnel. Start by fixing the leak at the bottom of the funnel and work your way up. Resources: https://www.happycog.com/

At the end of last year, well-renowned digital agency Vector Media Group acquired the equally-renowned Happy Cog. Why? And what does it mean for our industry? We get the details from Vector partners Matt Weinberg and Stuart Henry, who explain how the idea of an acquisition evolved over time and how quickly the deal came together once decided. They share the nuances of reassuring both clients and staff, as well as the challenges of merging processes and services. We also get their perspective on the digital agency landscape, along with advice for other agencies that are considering joining forces. < Download MP3 >      < Listen on ctrlclickcast.com > Show Notes: Vector announcement Happy Cog announcement Businesswire press release Defy Ventures Make a Wish Foundation CTRL+CLICK CAST Instagram Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts Review our show on Stitcher

In this episode, we have special guests Matt Weinberg from Vector Media Group and Mark Huot from Happy Cog to discuss Vector Media Group's recent acquisition of storied web agency Happy Cog.

Breaking up is hard to do—whether you’re ending a business relationship or a marriage. Bonnie Bogle’s done both, and she’s here to tell us about the good, the bad, and the it’s-just-plain-complicated. Bonnie cofounded Mapbox, one of the largest providers of custom online maps in the world. But after growing the business from zero to more than 200 employees, she left it all behind. Now she’s the director of Brazen in Philadelphia, where she works with startups at the start of their journeys. Bonnie tells us about what it was like to launch Mapbox with her husband as her business partner—precisely at the moment they decided to get divorced. She also shares what it was like to leave that same company after building it into a massive success. Oh, and how she knows the secret behind McGruff the Crime Dog’s life story. > Who cares if this is super unusual? Yeah, we’re getting a divorce, and we’re starting a company together at the same time, and screw it! Let’s just do it. We both want this. > — Bonnie Bogle , cofounder of Mapbox and director of Brazen Philly We chat with Bonnie about: Why living in Peru inspired her to create her first company, build open-source websites, and ultimately provide access to better maps How everything Bonnie learned running operations for a quickly growing startup became the backbone for how she’s helping other new businesses launch and grow How to decide whether and when to let go of something you love Follow Bonnie: Twitter | Insta We also dig into… When leaving a job is bittersweet, so you hang around for a month (or more) Toxic companies, toxic bosses, and realizing when you gotta GTFO Crying in the work bathroom: the worst, but also sometimes totally ok Breastfeeding at meetups, in Parliament—and wherever the hell you want to (if you want to) Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript [Ad spot] Sara Wachter-Boettcher Do you like feeling organized? How about getting paid? Well, friends, you will love Harvest. It’s a super simple tool I’ve been using for years to help me track time, invoice clients and run my business. And it scales from solo plans to multi-person, multi-client, multi-project setups. We even used Harvest to bill Harvest for this sponsorship. Seriously. Try it for free at getharvest.com and when you upgrade to a paid account, the code “noyougo” will get you 50% off your first month. Trust me, you should check it out. That’s getharvest.com, code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for twelve seconds] Jenn Lukas Hey, welcome back to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. Katel LeDû I’m Katel LeDû. SWB And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. KL Our guest today is Bonnie Bogle. She’s someone I met about six years ago in DC when she was Head of Operations at a company called Mapbox. And she cofounded and bootstrapped Mapbox. Back then, it was a few people and pretty soon it was hundreds. And then last year in 2017, Bonnie walked away. So we’re going to talk with her about all of that and her journey—building the company and deciding to leave it and what’s next. It’s kind of a cool story. SWB Yeah, I really liked chatting with Bonnie because I think we talk with folks a lot about starting new stuff but we don’t talk that often about when do you decide that it’s time to go? Especially when it’s something that’s really close to you—right? Like, she spent a lot of time building the company and to walk away from it was a huge deal. So, I think we should talk more about knowing when it’s time to leave… whatever! Leave a job, or leave a side project, or leave a company you started. KL Yeah, seriously. I think about this with National Geographic because I was there for over six years before I joined A Book Apart. And there were lots of reasons I left, many of them were positive like looking for a new challenge or working with difficult people. I also had just never worked with a smaller company, which was interesting to me. But—I don’t know—there were also a bunch of negative reasons or reasons that didn’t feel so positive that I left. And I realized at a certain point that I’d gotten to a certain level of management and I think I had gotten exposed to—you know—some toxicity and some politics and some bullshit I just wasn’t really loving. And that made me unhappy and that was spilling over into how I was interacting with my team, which sucked. And it was in the middle of the summer I think and we were dealing with a whole bunch of projects, like a whole bunch of deadlines were hitting and our team was understaffed and somebody was out for vacation for a couple weeks coming up and then somebody else on my team asked if they could take the same two weeks off and I like…said no. I just basically was like “no you can’t” because I felt like I just couldn’t be with like one less person and thinking back on that, I’m just like I can’t believe I had that conversation with that person. [3:01] JL What was it like having that conversation with that person? KL Yeah, it was terrible! Like I think back on it and I was feeling a lot of stress and like I said, I think that was kind of spilling over into how I was dealing with my team and I felt so shitty that I had treated that person—you know kind of like not—not with a lot of respect by just being like “no because I say so.” Like that’s terrible! And I—I don’t know—I think at the time I didn’t—I felt like I didn’t have any other choice but really I did and it just makes me so sad that that’s how it went down. SWB I’ve definitely felt like I was in a situation where I was struggling so hard to keep my head above water myself that it was really hard to make space for advocating for the people who were reporting to me. And that’s definitely one of the big reasons that—that I left the job. I mean I remember managing a team and I realized that I was spending so much of my time managing up, so some of that was—you know—making sure that I wasn’t getting the short end of the stick with management. Part of that was also being the shit umbrella—right? Which is where like you want to prevent the shit from upstairs [laughing] to come down on your whole team [KL laughs] and so—you know—when there were questions about things like what everybody’s workload was and whether—this is at an agency—so whether everyone was sort of fully utilized, as they say. So like how billable are people? Are they making enough money for the company is fundamentally what that means. And whenever those kinds of conversations came up, I had to fiercely advocate for the people who I was working with and make sure that they were essentially protected—right? That nobody was perceiving them as not contributing enough because they were working very hard. That was very consuming for me and I did not feel like I had enough space or time or energy left to do a lot to support them or sponsor them—give them opportunities to shine or to grow. And that is something that I really wish that I had done differently and I think ultimately the kind of—kind of like you mentioned, Katel—toxicity that I felt coming at me all the time, that’s when I basically decided like “I gotta get out of here.” [5:12] KL Yeah, this is also just making me think back to that time. [suppresses laugh] And I was in an office with big windows that like looked out onto the floor where the rest of my team was and [laughs]—two of my team members sat directly outside my office and I just remember like sobbing [laughing] because of something, like some meeting I had come from and being like so overwhelmed and I just looked up and they were [laughs] watching me and I was like “oh god, [laughs] this is bad.” JL Oh my god [laughs]. [KL sighs.] I have a line when it’s time to go and that’s crying at work. And not because it’s not okay to have feelings— KL Totally. JL —but if any place is making me cry, I am like “get the fuck out, you do not need to be in a situation like this.” [KL laughs] And I know that’s easier said than done—right? It’s not always easy to just be like “okay, I’m going to get a new job…like tomorrow!” But there’s just a line of respect that I need people to have at work. Not just to me but me to them and everyone all around. And so there was—I had a job this one time and someone yelled at me. [KL sighs] And I am so not okay with people like yelling, scolding people. And I just started crying. And I couldn’t stop, I mean I was just like—I closed myself in—in office in attempts to stop crying because I didn’t want to leave the office and have other people see me cry. And that was it for me, like mentally. I still ended up working at that place for a couple more months but it was like me creating my exit plan. SWB Yeah, I feel like those kinds of events can be like a wake up call. But I do wish, Jenn, that you had been that little angel over my shoulder for all the times I was crying in the bathroom. [laughing] Because I’ve cried in a lot of work bathrooms! [JL laughs] And it didn’t really occur to me to be like “wait a second, you shouldn’t have to be doing this!” And I think it’s fine like look, if you cry in the bathroom, it’s okay. Everyone cries, it’s fine. But to look at that and say okay, it’s not just something wrong with you that you’re crying in the bathroom, it’s like what’s going on that is enabling that to happen over and over again. KL Yeah. JL There should just be signs in the bathroom. [laughs] You know, not no crying—it’s okay, your feelings are okay—but like no to that— SWB But like— JL —asshole who made you cry. [laughs] SWB Yeah, [laughing] exactly. JL You know, and there’s times—again if everything else was perfect and this was just a random situation where—I don’t know—someone was having a real shit day and I accidentally got yelled at—you know? But it wasn’t. It was representative of a toxic situation that I just shouldn’t have been in anymore and it was time for me to go. SWB One of those moments for me was when I was actually being harassed by this guy who did not work for my company but he was a vendor, so it was a third party service we used a ton, so we had this really close vendor relationship with them. And I went to their big vendor conference because my team was responsible for this relationship and we’d been like—just like normal conference things. We’d been out at drinks with a coworker from my company and—you know—went back to the hotel, I am going to my room to go to bed because I am a reasonable adult. And I started getting all these gross texts from him trying to get me to come to his hotel room to play. KL Eugh. SWB And it was—it was very gross. And I had spent the whole evening thinking like—you know, we had talked about—I don’t know—the farmer’s market that he likes to go to with his wife and how he had just dropped his daughter off at college. Like I thought we had been having a very normal conversation! He thought that he was like teeing up this whole extra scenario. So it was super gross and obviously he was gross, but one of the things that was a huge sign for me was that after that happened, I did not feel like I could talk to the owners of my company about it. I did not trust them. I did not trust what they would say or do about it and I did not feel confident that that scenario would end in a place that was any safer for me. I knew, for example, that one of the owners of my company, like the vendor relationship we had with this other company was so important to him that I was like “he is going to prioritize that relationship over me.” [KL sighs loudly] Which like— KL Not—not okay. SWB So because of that, I did not go to them. And it was just like I reported to the owners. I was a director reporting up to the owners and I had this team of like six people who worked for me. And a couple of them worked with this vendor all the time. And so at one point I quietly sat down with these other women and warned them about this guy. And I look back on that and I think what a sad state of affairs—right? As their manager, I was effectively telling them that they couldn’t trust that they were working in a place where they would be safe—right? I was effectively warning them about a creep as opposed to preventing a creep from being in their workplace. And I don’t think anybody should be in a workplace where somebody is going to harass or assault them. And obviously, self included—right like this should not have been happening to me—but that was definitely a moment where I was like “oh my gosh, I can not do right by them.” And I regret it in some ways. I mean, at this point, I would absolutely push this issue forward and I would go to their company and I would make a stink about it to them, I would make a stink about it to the owners and I wouldn’t shut up about it until something changed, even if that meant that like I was pushed out. But at the time, I felt really scared of that and I also felt like I had no idea where to even start. That was when I really realized—this is an environment where I am not going to be able to affect any change that is good for anybody, myself included, because this obviously objectively awful thing has happened and I don’t feel safe enough to even talk about that, so what the fuck [laughs nervously] am I ever going to be able to fix here? [10:58] KL I give you a lot of credit for—I mean, you know—going through that and looking back on it. And obviously it’s so hard to not have feelings of like “I wish I had done this.” But I think that that is something we fall into when we’re sort of—a little earlier on in our careers and we’re managers and when you’re in an environment when the responsibility to like do the right thing is—is only and constantly being placed on you, that’s not necessarily fair. It’s not that you’re not going to do the right thing but when you don’t have a structure—like you said—through which to kind of make things better, that’s—that’s really tough. SWB I’m curious. Have either of you ever left a job that you really loved and that was like a place that was good and you felt really close to, but you felt like for whatever reason, you had sort of gotten what you needed to get out of it? JL Totally, yeah. I have a couple of times actually. My first job out of school—I worked at Lockheed Martin—and though that might have not been the [laughing] perfect fit for me—I don’t know if everyone would imagine me working there—I worked with a bunch of really great people. But the issue with working at Lockheed Martin is you’re working on a lot of confidential things and if I ever wanted to find another job, I couldn’t really show my portfolio. Because I was more the web design field—right? [laughing] So it wasn’t exactly the perfect match for where I wanted to go in my career trajectory, so I knew that I sort of had to make a move because if I stayed there, it wouldn’t follow my career goals in life. So even though it was a really great job with really great people, it just wasn’t the perfect fit for me and what I wanted to do. So the long term picture made it sort of easier for me to leave that job and try something new. SWB Jenn, I know also that you ended up working at Happy Cog a few years later—an agency—and that you were there for several years. And I remember when I met you, you worked there. And I just really strongly associated you and Happy Cog. [JL laughs quietly] You’d been there a long time, you seemed so crucial to that place. And so I’m curious, did you feel that way—like Happy Cog was a big part of you and was it hard to leave a place that was—that you felt so close to? JL Oh yeah, I still say “we” when I talk about Happy Cog. [KL laughs] You know, so I’m like “oh yeah, we did really great things there,” it will forever be a “we” for me. I absolutely loved it, felt very invested in that company and the success of it, still do follow them and always—like “oh what’s everyone doing now?” The thing is though—you know—I was there for six years. And I was doing a lot of speaking and I was just doing a lot of different work and I always wanted to try freelance. And it was really a good point in my career and my personal life for me to go out on my own. I had done—tried doing freelance once and that was right out of school and let me tell you, [laughing] that was not a good time for me to try freelance. But it just felt like this was a really good time for me to go out on my own and try consulting and focus more on the speaking. I was running Ladies in Tech at the time and I had a lot of just like writing and speaking engagements and I was like “I’m going to go for this!” So I had enough confidence to be brave to leave that job and try something new that I wanted to always try. SWB Was there a sadness about leaving a place that you did feel so connected to and almost felt like, like you said it was a “we,” like you felt such a part of? JL Totally, it was one of those things where the people I worked with will always be my friends and—you know—there was even like, “hey if you want to come back and work at the office, you can.” Which I definitely felt like I could, but I also sort of needed to separate because I needed to feel that separation. But you know, you keep in touch and you know—you just—you move on and there’s other things. KL Yeah, it’s funny that you say that because when I left Nat Geo—I mean, that was super bittersweet. And I remember that I gave a month of lead time— JL Yes [laughs] KL —and I kept—[laughs] and I kept telling myself that I was doing that to make sure I handed off things and that everything was smooth but looking back, really that was for me to—[laughing] to be able to let go. JL Yeah, when I left I gave six weeks! [KL laughs] SWB Yeah, I think this is something that Bonnie talks about a little bit about just sort of that—how do you let go? And feeling like you’re ready to let go and that it’s time to say like “okay—you know—this thing that I thought of as mine and us is no longer going to be mine and I am going to let it go out into the world and it’s going to do what it’s going to do.” And I think that that’s a really important part of growth—you know—when you have to let go of this one vision about yourself and your job and your life in order to pursue this other vision of yourself and your life. [15:26] JL I can’t wait to hear more about that! [music fades in, plays alone for five seconds, and fades out] Interview: Bonnie Bogle KL Today we’re talking with Bonnie Bogle, the director of Brazen in Philly, a community for women entrepreneurs. I met Bonnie when we were both living in DC and she was in the midst of running and growing Mapbox, one of the largest providers of custom online maps for websites and apps. And she’s gone from writer to entrepreneur to community leader and we can not wait to hear what’s she’s up to. Bonnie and I ran into each other in April and I almost squealed with delight at realizing that we live in the same city again. So needless to say, Bonnie, I am really happy you’re joining us. Welcome to No, You Go. Bonnie Bogle Thanks, it’s great to be here. KL So I want to just go back a little bit. You started out as a writer for the National Crime Prevention Council and the Nonprofit Technology Network. It seems like you’ve always sort of wanted to do work that benefits the public good. Can you tell us a little bit about—you know—just sort of starting out and what your early career was like? BB Sure. What brought me first to Washington, DC, was I went to college at American University and was lucky enough to have a lot of internships and then one of the ones that was probably most influential on me was when I worked for the local NPR affiliate. And that was where I realized the public good of community radio and also where I realized that my lifelong dream of being a journalist was actually not the right fit for me. [laughs] So when I did start off my career being this writer for—you know—something that was crime prevention, which was interesting to me on the local level but then also within technology was appealing. And also I was at that nice age range where coming out of college I knew how to use a computer better than most people, like that moment in time where the internet was on the newer side of things, so that was also an easy job to land. KL Did you ever meet McGruff the Crime Dog? BB Oh my gosh, so I actually, I wrote in his voice—was largely what I did when I was there. Because what I did was I ran the children’s website. I was not tall enough to actually wear the dog suit myself [KL laughs] thankfully, however one of my claims to fame in that job was I wrote the life story of McGruff, on how he actually became the Crime Dog. KL Oh my gosh, that’s very cool. [laughs] I love that. SWB I have so many follow up questions about McGruff but I feel like they would derail this entire interview. [laughter] KL Well, we’ll do a follow up. KL So skipping ahead, you started your first company Development Seed when you were twenty-three and then three years later you co-founded another one called Mapbox, as I mentioned before. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey? BB So, right after college I was actually living in Peru for a year and that was where we started Development Seed. I was down there with Eric Gunderson who is actually—he was the cofounder of Development Seed and later Mapbox as well—and we were following everything that was going on in the United States, which was open source technology and being used in some campaigns—like particularly Howard Dean’s campaign in interesting ways that we hadn’t seen before. So really what we were seeing was people being able to post stuff on the internet, when before it was super tricky unless you were a programmer and also very expensive. And meanwhile, we were living in Peru where we saw that every, single person was online but every website that they went to, somebody had created it from a different country. So our initial idea was to build open source websites, particularly using open source content management systems, so that people locally—particularly non-profits—could make websites and talk about their work. So we started there and that was kind of the very, very, very early days of Development Seed. We shortly thereafter ran out of money and moved back to Washington, DC, picked up another co-founder—Ian Ward—who stayed in Peru and—but then we started working with international development organizations. And that was—really like for me kind of how we started with Development Seed. I came on full time after the company had been up and running for…about three years? We worked with these international development organizations—at first we were just building them websites, but then we quickly started specializing and doing a lot of work with data visualizations, content management systems, like I said, internets back when that was a thing. And yeah, and we were slowly growing a team. And really what we realized as we were doing this was that we were hiring people who were very interested in building very cool technology, which is not really where you excel in the consulting game where a lot of what you want to do is build replicable technology so that you can—you know—spit it out very quickly. So we just kept trying to sell new things and we built new things and got better and better at doing that. Which was really fun, we built a name for ourselves. And then we had two different runs at doing—at making products. Both were moderately successful in that we sold them both but then also our third product that we tried building as Development Seed was what turned into Mapbox. So that was—our clients needed maps. And our clients were working in places like Africa and Haiti and—you know—the Middle East, Afghanistan. And at the time, the maps that existed online—it was just Google—there weren’t any maps of those places. It was maybe you would see a capital on a map, so we had to figure out how to actually put street maps up there. A lot of the work we were doing was humanitarian relief, so people getting from point A to point B was super important. So we figured out how to make maps—a lot of that was through convincing—you know—countries to give us their data, which was surprisingly easy to do. We hired some interns to help us with that. And then we had to figure out how to put it online—that was much more complex. But that need that we saw from our international development clients and this is—you know—the Red Cross, World Bank, that was really what kind of helped us come up with the idea of Mapbox and build the basis for it. [20:56] KL It’s so cool when you hear about people solving real problems and real life challenges where—I mean—were you able to see sort of the positive results of that? BB So yes and no. I would say it was one of those that we could see the possibility for the positive results of it but that was also kind of what ended up being a bit of the slog of the consulting work that we were doing was that we were building these—these tools that we thought honestly could solve these problems. I mean—you know—famine in Africa—you know—delivering supplies after earthquakes in Pakistan. And we saw the potential but we weren’t always seeing—either we didn’t get any information back on how people were using it or the information that we did get back showed that the government pays a lot more money in order to build products than to fund their use. So that was something that was—honestly kind of pushed us even further into not wanting to do consulting work and really wanting to focus on our product. Because we loved the—the mission of what we were working on was something that was very important to us. But honestly it gets super draining when you see that what you’re building, what you’re pouring hours into, what you’re working for like sub market rates at in order to be able to put this thing out there and then to see it not used…I think we all saw that—went through that. And that’s just part of how the world works—I understand that. But it was one of those things too that tipped us over. We’re like, “yeah, doing our own product, that could be cool, that could be something that’s up our alley.” KL Right, because you have real control over it. BB Exactly. KL So you started Mapbox with your then-husband and you were in the process of splitting up, right? BB Yes. So it was me and my ex-husband and there was a few other people that we all kind of deemed ourselves as cofounders of Mapbox. And timing was interesting because we had our first like big win with Mapbox in 2012 when Foursquare started using us. KL Yeah. BB And that then kind of then launched us into this “okay, maybe this can be something.” And we decided to go for it, we actually had a bit of a team vote about it, there was about ten of us in the room that said okay, let’s go for VC funding, it’s the only way we’re going to blow this up and really compete. And yeah—and then a few months after that was when me and my ex-husband—we decided to split up. SWB That sounds super hard! How did you get through that period of like exciting professional stuff happening, big things, big decisions to be made, while also dealing with really hard personal stuff? BB So, I got together with my ex husband when we were in college, we were juniors in college. It was my first big relationship, so it was also my first big break up, so I had no idea how to do that either so that was a nice complicating factor in the midst of all this too. I think at that point because we had been working together for so long, we were both decent at compartmentalizing personal and professional, so that was helpful. We also didn’t tell anyone at first, which was helpful in that nobody talked about personal stuff at work in regards to us splitting up because no one else knew. So I could go into this—you know, both of us could go into this safe spot where it wasn’t going to be like—you know—you got the pity eyes or whatever it may be that could throw you off your game. So we did some things to protect ourselves and we did that for a while. But honestly for months, I was really on the fence of “is this a place that I can stay” and it took me a while to get past that. And a lot of that was trying to figure out, can I work on this thing that I want to knowing that it means that life will be as us as two individuals and not as us as a couple? And when we did finally tell a few people—the other cofounders—they all basically said, like, “we can’t do this without you.” And that was this reaffirming thing for me that was really helpful. So it was a lot of reassurance from my coworkers that built up my confidence enough to be like—and also just talking with my ex—to be like, who cares if this is super unusual? And yeah, we’re getting a divorce, and we’re starting a company together at the same time, and screw it! You know? [SWB and KL laugh] Like, let’s just do it. We both want this. SWB Kudos—kudos to you! Because I feel like I am so much pettier [KL laughs] than that and I would like to think I would be the kind of person who could handle it and like I am not confident I am that person. [25:01] KL Well, speaking of—you know—sort of stepping into that role and not necessarily having a traditional background in business, was it hard to figure everything out? BB So I wasn’t the one that went after our funding, so I wasn’t the one pitching, which I think was—was good, that’s not that something I think I’d be particularly good at. I didn’t have the pressure of that and also the rejection of that right as I was going through a divorce, thank god. But I had the supporting of the company on the backend. So really what it was was trying to figure out how to not only create this new company and figure out how to get it set up so that we could actually take on VC money, while at the same time running the other company—Development Seed—to make sure that we could actually pay our bills and pay our team. So it was almost like I had two full time jobs during that time, one of which I had been doing for a while, so knew what to do and one of which I had absolutely no idea what to do but that was the future, and so if I screwed that one up, we were all done. [SWB & KL laugh quietly] I also had both the curse and the luxury of knowing exactly how much money we had in the bank and when we were running out of it. KL Yeah. BB And we had a lot to get done. And it was a good time overall too for—like I dove into work harder than I ever had before and that was probably just what I needed. I had something to focus on and we got a lot done and we were building this thing that was about to be so exciting. KL Did your role sort of ever change or evolve—I mean I’m sure it did—but in context of Mapbox growing because it sounds like it grew quickly and big. BB So, yeah, I mean my role definitely changed and a lot of that happened honestly overnight with funding in that basically when funding hit, not only was I doing all of the running the company, running operations behind it and just really everything on kind of the backend of the house. But then also we had this opportunity for the first time where we could really figure out how we wanted to grow and we knew that we were going to grow quickly, we knew we were going to double in size as far as team size. But also we had—we had money for the first time. We had never had any money before, we always had like maybe two months in the bank. So that was this freedom of we could do it the right way because we had resources and we were very lucky in that we had investors who were supportive of us as well. So really it was a lot of—at that time—was a lot of envisioning of who we wanted to be when we grew up, as a company. And something that was important to me and to the other co-founders as well was creating a business that was a place that we were very proud of, a place that we wanted to work and that—you know—had the values that we wanted to put forth. And yeah, we wanted to build an environment where everybody could thrive and felt supported and had space to do what they thought was best for the company. And that was a lot of my job was trying to figure out how to create the foundation of a company that we could be proud of and then how to grow that and have that not break as we grew as fast as possible. SWB So I know that Mapbox has grown a ton and it’s become—you know—a pretty good sized company but also you left the company relatively recently, right? So can you tell us about that? What was it like to grow this thing and then make an exit and what made you decide to do that? BB So I was there—I left about a year and a half ago. And I helped grow the company from 0 to about 225 people. I had been working with the combination of Development Seed and Mapbox—for ten years, so I hit my ten year work anniversary and that was a nice pause for reflection. You know, I mean, I can’t tell you how much I grew based on the opportunities I had career-wise, but also I worked with the same leadership the entire time. And essentially I mean, like I didn’t really have a boss but if I did, it would be the same group of people being my boss. And that felt like a lot. And I had also hit this point where growing a company is very, there are so many interesting things about it, but it was almost like at that point, I was—we were past some of the building stage. Obviously everything’s still growing and building—now too—but I was doing a lot of the things again or for the second or third iteration on them. Which was necessary, because there was the thinking through of how do you do this for a larger company. But it was almost like I was solving the same problem. So it was really fun to come up with our onboarding plan for our team and how we best brought on new hires the first and second time, but doing it the fifth time, that wasn’t really fun anymore. And I was able to pass off, obviously, a lot of work as my team grew, but it was also not really…I wasn’t sure if it was exactly giving me what I wanted career-wise overall. We were also going through this transition internally at Mapbox where we had started as a flat company, which worked really well for us for longer than I—honestly than anyone ever thought it would. But we were coming up on the point where that absolutely had to change, it was no longer working and we were talking through how to fix that. So, a lot of the internal debate at that point was whether or not we were going to—like how to put in management structure. And a lot of what went with that was a lot of the systems and work that I had built over the years. So it was time to change but I wasn’t—frankly, I wasn’t winning the argument on how to do that. Meanwhile, we were also having the conversation about what was next for the company where we were discussing basically like do we go for another round of funding? And the answer to that was yes. We decided to go for as much funding as we possibly could, but then I knew that that was another three- to four-year commitment of running as fast as possible. At this time I was splitting my time between San Francisco and DC, so like personally the toll of doing that was pretty heavy. In the beginning it was so much fun, but after three, four years I was exhausted all the time and I missed having a life in a single city. Yeah and it just seemed like all these factors were kind of combining together so that it meant that it was—it was a good time for me to leave, it was good for me personally because I would get a break. I could try something else out new career-wise, which I was hungry for, and also company-wise it would give the company a fresh start, as we were doing kind of like a massive cultural and internal organizational change for me to be able to step away and so it wasn’t like “that was the old way under Bonnie and this is the new way under—you know—Series C, this is what this looks like. [30:55] KL Yeah. Well now you are the director at Brazen, where you’ve been launching the Philly office. Tell us more about Brazen and what you’re doing there. BB Sure. So I started with Brazen beginning of the year and really what we want to do is help women entrepreneurs grow their companies. So we work with people who are doing startups like high-growth startups, which—you know—like Mapbox and other ones. But also people who are just trying to go from being the only person at their company to hiring four people, five people. So really going after some of the small business pieces too. And we focus on the operational pieces on like how do you actually do like that? And these common questions that everyone has who is running a business—you know—like how do I hire, how do I—financially how do I plan for this? Legally what do I do? How does this work? What is—you know—when do I go after financing? So that’s kind of like our bread and butter is focusing in on those things, which is really interesting for me and what really drew me to it because that was all the stuff that I had to learn as I was going through my work with Development Seed and Mapbox and which I had no idea what I was really doing with up until I had done it. And it’s a steep learning curve, it is for everybody. So kind of like Brazen, our goal is in order to kind of help people with those tangible questions that they have as they’re going through it, but also connect them with other entrepreneurs so they have people to ask questions to. I know when I was—when we were getting Development Seed off the ground and I felt completely over my head all the time on—you know—like oh how do we run a business, I don’t know I’ve—you know—I’ve never done this before. All my friends were working nine to fives and whenever—you know—I would talk about work, they’d roll their eyes at me. [KL laughs] They’ve gotten much better about that over the years, but our idea with Brazen is to fill that need for people. KL I love that this exists. BB Yeah, thanks! I think as a resource it’s really helpful. It’s something that I—looking back, I wish I had had access to. KL How has it been working for a company that’s already established versus running your own thing? BB Yeah I mean it’s a lot of—like asking for permission is something that I haven’t had to do in over—you know—basically my entire career. So that part has been strange and I’m—and I’m—frankly, I just don’t really ask for permission. I just go out and do stuff and if it works, it works. And it’s been—it’s been good. Like it’s—Brazen has a startup mentally, so that’s great. And it is interesting not carrying the stress of it too because that was something that I’ve also had for so long that I really I wanted a break from. And that was really important as I was thinking about what I wanted next career wise, so yeah, I mean that part’s been nice. Like I stop work when I eat dinner and then I don’t normally go back online unless there’s—you know—unless I’m excited about something. KL Yeah, I totally get that. And I think it’s really nice when you can kind of take a step back and—and see what you’re missing in your current situation and say like “okay, this is the thing I need to move to next.” So, you are also expecting a child soon, right? BB Yes! In October. KL That’s so exciting, congratulations! BB Thank you. KL I’m sure that that has also something that you’re considering in terms of what you’re working on now and—you know—what’s next for you. BB Oh, definitely. And I—and I feel like I’m in this funny spot where—and this kind of fits my personality—but where I did—you know—last year I did this full life pivot where I left Mapbox, I had been living in DC for—since college. So that was about eighteen years and I decided hey I’m going to quit my job, leave the company I helped start and move to Philadelphia where I don’t know anyone—except unless I went to high school with them or they’re related to me. And my boyfriend. But it was a big change and part—I mean, it was something I wanted to do for a long time but also I really wanted to focus on my personal life because I had done a crap job of that for a long time. So particularly after like when Mapbox started and got full up and steam, I—I worked. That’s what I did. And I loved my job, I loved what I was doing, so that was—that was fine. But it was—it was fine for a moment in time and I was ready for something different. And then now I feel like it’s—I’ve gone like swung completely to the other extreme because now we’re having a baby soon! And we just recently bought a house in the suburbs and have this master plan of splitting our time between living in Philadelphia in the city and then being out in the suburbs because—to be closer to my boyfriend’s two kids. And I own a car now for the first time since I was in high school [KL laughs] and everything has shifted drastically in the other direction, which is both really exciting and also confusing sometimes. [laughs] [35:10] KL So, I’ve just got one last question for you. If you were to—you know—tell someone who was looking to start a company or something just wildly new, do you have any sort of advice that you would give them based on all of the kind of amazing experiences that you’ve had? BB Don’t think twice. Just—if someone has the itch to go do their own thing, I always tell them to do it, to try it. Because otherwise you’re going to overthink things. When really, starting your own business is more about getting stuff done and getting out there, even when you have no idea if what you’re doing makes any sense. Because then as soon as something is out here, you can make it better, you can fix it, and you can get reactions to it. But it becomes real once you get started. So yeah, I mean I think that would be my biggest piece of advice is go for it. You know obviously it’s always good to think through financially to make sure you’re in a good spot and all those things, but if you can, take the—take the jump. It’s an exciting ride. You’re going to learn more than you ever will working for somebody else, just because of the amount of pressure and the amount of risk that you’re going to be taking yourself. And even if it doesn’t work out, then—you know you took the plunge and went for it and you can go back to doing what you were doing before. KL Yeah, I love that. SWB And maybe some of our listeners would be interested in getting some guidance and support from a community like Brazen! BB Yes! That would be awesome! So Brazen—we are in six cities now, Philadelphia being one of them but also in Chicago, Saint Louis, Detroit, Denver and Dallas. So, if you’re in any of those areas, check us out. KL That’s so great. Thank you so much, Bonnie, for joining us today. It was really, really lovely to talk to you. BB Oh wonderful to talk to you! [music fades in, plays alone for five seconds, and fades out] Career Chat [Ad spot] SWB It was so cool to talk to Bonnie about knowing when it’s time to make a change. And speaking of career change…it’s time for our weekly career chat with Shopify. What do we have this week, Katel? KL Well, I was looking at Shopify’s job listings, and I found one for a Product Operations Manager, where they’re looking for someone who can be a team player, coach, and referee all-in-one. I love this because I know a lot of folks like who have this skill—and it’s so critical to being a manager! SWB Totally! And, you know, one of the things I really love about Shopify’s job listings is that they’re not overly prescriptive, like you must have 5+ years of X, or you must have a bachelor’s degree. They just feel a little more human. Like check out this one for the Director of Partnerships in Channels. They’re looking for “a senior strategy and business leader” and you’d be doing stuff like developing strategic relationships, or improving product integrations, or building teams across different offices. But then at the bottom of the posting, it says: “Experience comes in many forms, many skills are transferable, and passion goes a long way.” And they go on to talk about that if your experience is close to what they’re looking for, that you should consider applying even if you’re not an exact perfect match to everything that they list. And I think that’s so great. KL I love that. SO. If you want to solve problems you’re passionate about and work with a team that’s making commerce better for everyone, visit Shopify.com/careers to see which role might be right for you! [music fades in, plays alone for five seconds, and fades out] FYOTW KL So, I’ve got a fuck yeah to share. So last night, I hosted about twenty women and two men from a volunteer group that I work with here in Philly. And it was really cool, we don’t meet up that often and so we all got to hang out and it was great. And we had someone giving a presentation and it was great—super informative. And she brought her one year old baby with her so she was—you know—giving her presentation, the baby was hanging out and she started to get a little uncomfortable at a certain point, kind of fussy. And so mid-sentence, the woman who was talking just looks up at the room and says “does anyone mind if I breastfeed?” And this is a group of people who, if you’re going to breastfeed in front of twenty some odd people, this is the group to do it in. And so we all just started laughing because we were just shouting like “yes of course, oh my gosh.” You know, in this group, of course do that. So it was really cool and it just made me think I was so glad to be in that room and be a part of it, but I was also like “fuck yeah, she should be able to do that wherever!” JL Also fuck yeah for hosting [laughing] twenty-two people in your house! KL [laughing] Thank you, thank you. JL Because, impressive. But it’s great that we can feel this way, but I hate that we even have to feel this way. KL Yeah. JL Like there shouldn’t even be a question like “does anyone mind if I breastfeed?” or even, like, the hesitation. People should all be able to feed their children wherever and however they want to at all times. SWB Totally! I think like fucking breastfeed everywhere, anywhere. Like kid’s got to eat, it’s not a big deal, people breastfeed, it’s not a big deal. Something that I saw recently was that there’s a lot more emphasis on people breastfeeding in public spaces. In fact, really public spaces. Did you all see back in the summer—I think it was in June—there was a member of Parliament in Canada who took a quick break to breastfeed her son right during the middle of Parliament. [40:00] KL I love that. JL Yeah, and the year before—Larissa Waters in Australia also breastfed in Parliament. And the more that people do it, the more it gets normalized. And it sucks that we have to normalize it, but we do because [laughs] people have such strong, uncomfortable feelings to it, which makes me really upset. You know—I was just thinking—you know—maybe we need to create a Foursquare for breastfeeding. [KL laughs] SWB Like a breastfeeding scavenger hunt where it’s like [laughing] you have to breastfeed in this whole list of places and you win some prizes. JL Yeah I mean, it’s like one of those things. Like as you know, I breastfed my son. And when I first starting breastfeeding, I did personally feel uncomfortable breastfeeding in public. Luckily, I have the support of a lot of friends and I’d like—you know—mention these groups, which are great if you don’t have other mothers that you’re close to if you’re looking for a thing, there’s breastfeeding support groups online that are—that are awesome at this that will help give the confidence so that you don’t feel like you ever have to ask “can I breastfeed” because you shouldn’t. You should go into a restaurant, a park, if you [laughs] have to be at some sort of meeting with your child for some reason, you should be able to feel comfortable to be able to breastfeed your child there and without even ask or hesitation and no one should feel weird about it because that’s just—you know—what we do. SWB Totally! And I do think—you know—if you feel uncomfortable breastfeeding in certain scenarios or if you feel a little more private about your body, that’s totally fine—right? JL Yeah, sure! SWB This is not about pressuring anybody to do things that make them uncomfortable, but it’s about the ways in which we feel like we can’t do a thing that we should be able to do because other people are going to think it’s weird or shame us or make some nasty comment. I remember when I was on a city bus in Germany with my sister-in-law who was breastfeeding their baby. So—you know—she just lifts up her shirt and starts breastfeeding in the middle of the city bus. And I remember I asked her—you know, her and I are close—and I asked her, what was it like to get comfortable doing that? Was that something that you immediately felt comfortable doing, or did it take a while, and how did you get comfortable doing it? And she said it was a little bit weird at first, but she said, like, really it was within a week or two of just being like “gotta feed this baby”—right? Your priorities all shift around and she’s like “baby is hungry, need to feed baby” like you just—you just sort of normalize it very quickly. And—you know—they’re lucky enough to live in a place where I don’t think she gets a lot of flack for that in Eugene, Oregon. [laughs] But in other places that’s not true—people will say something to you and like…no, don’t ever do that. JL And, you know, just to re-emphasize, if breastfeeding in public is not something you want to do—I mean, certainly don’t do it. But anyone who does want to do it or needs to do it, you know, should be able to without any judgement. And I think it’s up to all of us to provide those supportive spaces—you know? I shouldn’t have to go up to someone and be like “well, would you rather see my child breastfeeding or hear him cry?” There should never have to be that statement. I shouldn’t have to convince anyone of this. And so I think it’s, one, being accepting but also—you know—if you do see those people who are judging, tell them a little bit more about why this is okay. So, fuck yeah to breastfeeding in all places that you feel comfortable breastfeeding. SWB Fuck yeah! Well, that is it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by the Diaphone. Thanks to Bonnie Bogle for being our guest today. KL If you loved today’s show as much as we did, don’t forget to subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Your support helps us do what we do, and we love that! See you again next week! [Music fades in, plays alone for 32 seconds, and fades out to end.]

Paul and Jeremy nerd out about things that people put underground. Especially the things that people put underground for puzzling reasons.Old Man ErrataJeremy said that H. Jon Benjamin was the voice of Xander Crews/Awesome X on Frisky Dingo. Nope. That was Adam Reed. It’s just that Xander Crews and Sterling Archer are drawn almost exactly the same.Paul confused Tim Heidecker with Eric Wareheim. Whatever.Show NotesArcher | Episodes | FXXWatch Full Episodes of Frisky Dingo Now on AdultSwim.comH. Jon Benjamin - WikipediaJon Benjamin Has a Van - WikipediaHome Movies (TV series) - WikipediaAdam Reed - WikipediaThe Venture Bros. - WikipediaHappy Cogaoke | FlickrScoot McNairy - WikipediaScoot Inn AustinOK! Happy Cog’aoke 2 - Stay on VimeoWe'll Never Have Paris - WikipediaRick Allen (drummer) - WikipediaThe Cave | Best for a good reason. - YouTubeSubTropolis - WikipediaSubTropolis | Industrial Space for Lease in Kansas CityLamar Hunt - WikipediaOklahoma City Underground – Oklahoma City, Oklahoma - Atlas ObscuraHistorians recall hidden "Chinese underground" under OKC streets | KOKHLost Chinese Underground Revealed - 405 Magazine - October 2012 - Oklahoma CityThe Secret Chinatown: A Subterranean ‘City’ - The Daily Galaxy --Great Discoveries ChannelShanghai tunnels - WikipediaThe Secret of the TunnelsCincinnati Subway - WikipediaThe Cincinnati Subway SystemOverland Park’s AMG Services agrees to record settlement over payday loans | The Kansas City StarDirty Money | NetflixMiami, Oklahoma - WikipediaEvil Genius | NetflixBojack Horseman | NetflixGLOW | NetflixDid you like this show? If so, support Paul and Jeremy on Patreon. By giving as little as $5.00 per month, you’ll get access to exclusive after-show content. It’s practically a whole second episode each week we publish! Show your appreciation. Support Uncle Weepy today! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Chris Cashdollar, Principal of Cashdollar Design, joins Gary Rozanc to discuss a wide array of topics. The conversation starts off with a discussion on ways to better prepare students for careers as freelance designers such as working with popular CMS templates, the ubiquitous need for writing skills to persuasively promote your work, and the need for internships to augment classroom learning. Along the way, Chris also discusses where designing Micro Interactions fits into the overall design process and the fundamental differences between solo designer software programs like Illustrator and Photoshop and collaboration based programs like InVision and Sketch that reflect how the industry operates today.

Hey look, it’s a bonus-ode! We sent our demo to a bunch of friends, and they sent us back, like, a zillion questions. So we thought we’d answer a few on air—and then ask you a question of our own. > Does it alienate potential clients if I’m tweeting a lot about sexual harassment in tech? Do I care? > —A listener from San Francisco As always, we’ve got the show notes—and a full transcript—right here. Show notes How many bottles of wine does it take to answer your mail? Technically none, but it’s more fun this way. In this week’s mailbag, we talk about: The, uh, pleasures of Pennsylvania’s state-run wine and spirits stores. What it means to do “big” things, and the reasons women often minimize their accomplishments (it ain’t all imposter syndrome, folks). Whether this podcast is business or pleasure (it’s BOTH, dammit). Why the Instant Pot is “all game no shame.” What growth and career progression look like when your job’s not a standard 9-to-5. The personal, the professional, and the ramifications of tweeting with reckless abandon. Karen McGrane’s “Give a crap. Don’t give a fuck.” inspired Sara to get more vulnerable in her writing. The fact that Katel’s a CEO. Just sayin’. Thanks as always to our friends The Diaphone for the use of our theme song, Maths, off the album of the same name! Transcript JENN LUKAS: Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KATEL LEDÛ: I’m Katel LeDû. SARA WACHTER-BOETTCHER: And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. SWB: Hey everyone, today on No, You Go, we’re doing something a little bit different. You see, we sent out our demo episode to a whole bunch of friends recently, and we started getting a lot of questions back from them. So what we thought we would do is go through that mailbag and answer some questions. And we thought, even better, let’s open up some wine, and answer those questions with the mics on. So, why don’t we go ahead and see what our listeners have to say. [Intro music] SWB: So, Jenn, what are we drinking tonight? JL: I have good news for you, this wine is already started. We are drinking tonight a lovely Côtes du Rhône. ALL: Mmmmmmmmm KL: That’s fancy, for fancy ladies. JL: It’s from the wine cellar of 11th Street Liquors. [Laughter] SWB: I was gonna say, it’s fancy, via South Philadelphia. KL: That’s right. JL: The South Philadelphia State Store. Thank you state store. KL: We don’t mess around. SWB: Okay, so let’s see what’s in the mailbag!” KL: So, a listener from Vancouver, Canada asks, “How did you know you wanted to do big things?” SWB: That’s such a tough question. I spent my childhood and early adulthood feeling really ambitious, but kind of not knowing where to put that ambition—like not being clear what I was working toward. And it was not until probably my late twenties that I had some idea of what I might be working toward in my career. I feel like it was more of a gradual figuring out on my part, to get an idea of what made me tick, what made me feel satisfied, so I knew where to put my energy and wasn’t feel like I was throwing my energy all over the place. KL: It doesn’t always necessarily feel like big things, but I am always looking for things that make me feel uncomfortable and nervous, and speaking in front of people makes me feel that way. So, I don’t know, this just feels like really good practice, and it’s exciting. JL: I think I’m with you in that I don’t necessarily think of them as big things, but I guess that’s the same as answering one of those questions like, “Well, my biggest weakness is caring too much.” [Laughter] So, I don’t want to be cliche here, because, they are big things. I also don’t want to sell anything that I do short, or anything that we do short. I think thought that if they’re things that I really like doing, it makes it easier to then get into it. So I think I just always wanted to do things that I really liked doing, and sometimes if you really want to do something that you love, you have to go big. KL: Totally. And it might not feel like, oh, I’m going to embark on this huge thing to you, because you like all these things about it. SWB: I think it’s also, you know, tying back to something we talked about in our first episode was that we really wanted to talk about being ambitious, and what that means. And I think that’s a scary word for a lot of people to use, and I think maybe particularly for women to use, because it’s like, you’re not necessarily socialized to think that what you’re doing should be ambitious. So it’s like, I don’t really think of anything I’m doing as being big things, but when I look at what other people are doing, I think that they’re all doing big things. So maybe I am doing big stuff and I am just not—I’m minimizing it. JL: Yeah, totally. Yeah, you’re completely right. And we almost get used to downgrading it, and thinking that is wasn’t a big deal, and it almost becomes a self-defense mechanism. KL: Yeah, like just in case it doesn’t happen, or you fail, or you stumble. SWB: Or in case somebody out there shits all over it. KL: Yeah, sure. SWB: That’s certainly something that I have felt. When I started writing publicly about my work—not writing in my work, but writing about my field—I was very nervous that people would think that my ideas weren’t valuable, weren’t adding anything. Or that they were just plain wrong. I think that a lot of people have that sensibility. You know we talk about imposter syndrome, and feeling like what you’re doing is not that important. And we try to tell women to be proud of their accomplishments. But part of that is a very real fear, because there are definitely assholes out there who will tell you that what you’re doing doesn’t matter, isn’t valuable, or isn’t good. It can be healthy to protect yourself a little bit, and it can sometimes also be difficult, I think, to like, parse out the difference between minimizing your accomplishments because you don’t want to take up too much space, or minimizing your accomplishments because you don’t want to be a target. You know, I’ve definitely had—not too bad so far, but—my share of trolls who have come after me for things I’ve written or said online, and a lot of their arguments really boil down to: How dare you? How dare you have thoughts and opinions, and how dare you exist in the world sharing them? How could you not see all of that around you all the time and not kind of internalize that a little bit? JL: Sara, I think that’s a great point. So, how do you know you want to do big things? Well, if you’re willing to put up with that shit, then I guess you know that you want to do big things, because you care about it even with the potential negatives that come with putting yourself out there and doing big. If it’s important to you enough that you can be like, eff those jerks. SWB: Totally. Like most days I have that feeling. I can put a middle finger up and get out there and do what I want to do. There are times, though, when the assholes get the best of you. And I think that’s okay. I tend to look at it as like, part of doing ambitious work is also recognizing that it’s not like, one unbroken line of progress. You’re going to have those moments where you’re really feeling capable and you can get a lot done, and you feel confident to get out there and talk about your work, and then you’re going to have those moments where you don’t feel that. And that’s okay. Because it doesn’t mean you’re not going to have another idea or another opportunity to get out there and bring your ideas to the world. JL: Here’s another question that we got: “My attention is spread thin across so many things.” She wants to know: How do you have time for hobbies? Do you have time for hobbies? KL: Sometimes I’m not even sure what my hobbies are anymore—we’ve talked about this before—because I feel like there’s a lot of crossover between things you love to do and things you’re doing for work. But I did realize recently that I haven’t read a full book front to back in a really long time. That made me super depressed. That’s one of my goals this year. So I know that’s not necessarily a super glamorous hobby, but you have to prioritize it. SWB: Well I also think, you know, what counts as a hobby? Is this a hobby? On the one hand, I think that this podcast is a super-serious part of my work, in the sense that I am putting a lot of focused time into it, I’m taking it very seriously, we’re thinking about things like sponsorships and producers, and we want this to be something that is polished and legit. On the other hand, it is also an opportunity to hang out with some of my closest friends, and drink wine, and order Thai food, and laugh—and that’s a good social activity. And so where does this sit? Like a lot of things in my life, I feel like it sits somewhere halfway in between. And I’m okay with that. That said, I think, you know, we talked about this a bit in our first episode, and you do have to have time that is not work time, and you do have to have things in your life that are not work things. For me that includes lots of physical activity; I really like to make sure that I go running and I go to the gym and lift. And it also means that I spend time reading books, and I don’t read all of the professional books that people around me seem to be reading. I sometimes do read books in my field, but I spend a lot of time skipping those in favor of picking up fiction, because I feel like that’s a healthier choice for me. KL: I just want to say that I do read the books that I publish. Just to any authors who are listening, I just want to make sure that you know that. [Laughter] JL: Do you know the last book that I read? It was called Solving Child Sleep Problems. [Laughter] KL: Sounds accurate. SWB: So, a really fun hobby. JL: It’s really great. I actually listen to the Audible book when my child wakes up at 2am, and I nurse him. KL: Is there a hobby that either of you have that you used to do earlier in your life that you wish you could bring back into your life? SWB: Not exactly, but there is something that I used to do way more of that I realized a little while ago had fallen by the wayside a bit on, which was cooking. I have always liked to cook and I really like to be able to make things from lots of different types of cuisines, different types of foods. And for a long time my husband and I would cook pretty much every night. Originally, we couldn’t afford to go out to eat all the time, and we still liked to eat interesting and good things, and healthy things, and things that come from vegetables, and so we would cook them. Over time, you know, I found that we would have more disposable income and it would be easier to go out more often, and that’s fun, but I was starting to really miss the feeling of setting down my work and doing something that was a complete shift in my brain and doing something with my hands. And so I have been trying to make sure I set my work down earlier more often, and really spend a little bit of time on the whole chopping, cleaning vegetables, prepping things, sautéing things—all of those little bits of cooling that are not necessarily fancy, but that I want to have a pause to make a meal from scratch. And so I have been really making sure that I am making time for that more evenings than I was for a while. JL: I keep going on the opposite spectrum. We now have an Instant Pot, and we do not do as much. KL: Hey that’s not shame, that’s all game. SWB: Instant Pots are great. I love my Instant Pot. Can we just do like an Instant Pot episode? JL: But yeah I don’t mean to keep bringing it down, but I’m going to be honest: no, I don’t have time for hobbies. That’s just not a thing I have time for anymore. So I do sort of as Sara was saying consider this a hobby, because it’s not my 9 to 5, and I really enjoy this. So I guess it is how you define hobbies. If hobbies are something you choose to do that doesn’t necessarily pay your bills, then yes, this would be a hobby for me. I like, seriously schedule every hour. I don’t preschedule it, but every hour of my day it’s either at work, or with my 10-month-old, or sleeping. So every hour I’m spending not trying to catch up on sleep is I guess a hobby. So then this would be a hobby. But other things I keep struggling to try to make time for. I don’t exercise or cook as much as I want to. To go to a yoga class, oh my god. KL: It takes planning. JL: And the yoga class near me is an hour and a half. Who’s got an hour and a half? KL: That’s so much yoga. JL: It’s like, so much! SWB: I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hate yoga. KL: I love it, but those are long classes. JL: Yeah, they’re real long. So then I try to do online workout videos where I can, but even then, you have to do it when your kid’s napping, and I think, if my kid’s napping, then maybe I should be napping. Everything’s a choice now. KL: Yeah, and you’re like, don’t hop around and thud around on the floor. SWB: Well okay, so I know that when you have a small child, that becomes so painfully clear that everything is a tradeoff. It is definitely easier for those without small children to make some of those choices about how they spend their time. But all of us are making tradeoffs about how we spend time, right? JL: Yeah. SWB: A lot of it has to do with what gives you energy, what makes you feel good. And for some people, they need more of that pure downtime. And other people, myself for example, kind of lose their shit a little bit when they have too much downtime. So like, if you take me to a cabin for a weekend in the mountains, and you’re like, let’s all hang out in this house all day, I’m like, that sounds awful. I am going to die here; when are we going outside for a walk? And other people don’t feel that way. So I realized, for me, I need less of that really downtime stuff, that stuff that’s really relaxing for other people, I need less of that. And that having something like this, that is sort of a creative outlet, and I’m making something, but is sort of low-stakes—that is very positive for me and that feels good in my life. JL: Let’s get another question! KL: Yeah, here’s one from San Francisco: “Something I’m interested in lately is the notion that when you’re on the corporate career track, there are clear “stages”—early career, mid-career, senior level, etc.—that are tied to titles and responsibilities. When you’re in a smaller company or work for yourself or as a consultant, that sense of being on a track isn’t so clear. What does it mean that I’ve been a consultant for 10 years? How do you talk about that or even THINK about that?” SWB: I have the same question; I’d really appreciate if someone could answer that question for me. [Laughter] KL: That is such a good question. I think that is actually an issue, a little bit, in companies in general where there aren’t necessarily clear tracks everywhere. And I think that’s also just because the way we work has evolved so much in the past decade, five years. SWB: Yeah, and I think, Katel, you’re a CEO—which is, first off, badass. Katel’s a CEO, I like to tell people that. But secondly, okay, well, you’re not getting promoted. Which is cool, because you’re in charge, but what does that mean for what growth looks like, or what the next level looks like for you? How do you know what that is in your job? And it’s unclear. You have to define that in new ways that we don’t necessarily have vocabulary for. KL: You do, and I think that is one thing that I learned along the way. I sort of had to take a lot more ownership of it than I kind of expected to. I had to—not necessarily decide, but navigate, and say, okay, I think it’s time to make some sort of progression upwards or to over here, and try this new responsibility out or whatever. And I think you kind of have to forge that ahead a little bit for yourself. And if you’re at a company that has more team members, get people who are going to advocate for you to make that happen. SWB: And you know, for me, I think about this listener who says she’s been a consultant for 10 years. I haven’t been a consultant quite so long. But it’s been over six years, long enough to ask myself some of these same questions. Like, do I just keep doing this forever? And for me, what I’ve found is that I look for constant reinvention. Am I changing up what I offer to my clients? Am I changing up how I spend my time? Writing books is a big piece of that. Not that that is a right answer for everybody, but that being an author is a different kind of role and a different kind of work, and that has allowed me to grow in different ways than doing consulting alone would. And also looking at, am I feeling like I am gaining in some fashion? And some of that is like, am I gaining in influence? Or am I able to have conversations with a different level of person in the companies that I am working with than I was originally? And I try to take stock of those things and see if I feel like I have growth on those fronts. And for me I have found that to be a really helpful way of looking at it. KL: I love that. And I think you have to take it on to craft that into your, you know, quote-unquote story, in terms of what you tell people that you do, and how you tell that. JL: Yeah, I think when I was consulting, I would go back to my resume or my LinkedIn, which some people may not use, which is fine, but whatever you’re using to track what you’re doing. And I would add new entries. I mean, I was consulting the whole time, but I would mark projects that I was doing. And sometimes having a form to fill out, where you’re forced to list what you’re doing, and like your accomplishments, will help you start writing down the things. Like, oh yes, I did this this year, or I did this side project. And when you start listing them, it’s a way to make sure you’re—my mom would always say this—“are you keep track of everything that you’re doing?” And I’m like, “yeah, mom.” [Laughter] KL: Yeah, you’re accounting for it. JL: Yeah. So some sort of place where you can track that, whether it’s your personal portfolio or your resume or LinkedIn. Something where you’re actually writing down what you’re doing, whether you’re trying to get more work, or you’re trying to move into some other position at some point. SWB: I also think that some of this comes back to the way that women particularly are socialized, right? Because so often we have been taught to not make too many waves, the idea of advocating for yourself and stating what path you want to be on, and saying, “I want these responsibilities, I want to go here”—that is not something that many women are practiced in, or that many women feel safe to be able to do. And so I think part of that makes it more difficult for us to put ourselves out there and kind of stake a claim and say, “Look at all the things I am doing. Here’s the direction that I’m going in.” And it’s more comfortable to say, like, okay, is somebody else going to define my next job title for me, my next role for me. And it’s hard, because on the one hand work has changed so much in the past few years, as Katel mentioned, and obviously gender norms are changing, too. But we still have so much historical baggage around them that they definitely have not caught up with the way that work is changing. That can just make it extra challenging for women, and I don’t think that we can resolve that, but I do think we need to be able to talk about that. And I think creating the space to talk about that is really important, because it’s a real thing. KL: Yeah, and I hope that more people, more women will feel like, at least they can practice talking about it, and I think that’s a big step, too. Even if you can practice talking about it with a friend or a colleague, that helps a little bit. SWB: Yeah, totally. Well I think that kind of bleeds into the next question that we got from a listener, which is, how do we blend “professional” and “personal.” Imagine there are definitely finger quotes around both of those. She says, “does it alienate potential clients if I’m tweeting a lot about sexual harassment in tech?” And then also, “Do I care? How do you figure this out, and what are the tradeoffs for that?” I love this question. I love this question because I have thought this question in my head a hundred different times. Nothing gets better if you can’t talk about it, and I’m tired of feeling like I can’t talk about the things that matter to me, and so I am navigating the ramifications of that. JL: Yeah, and I think on that note, you can choose how you want to tweet about things, you can choose how you want to talk about things. You don’t have to say, well I can never talk about politics, I can never talk about sexual harassment. But you can choose how you talk about those and you can talk about those respectfully. And I think that’s sort of a way you can navigate it. And you don’t have to do that either, you can go out there swinging, if you want to. It’s just a matter of what feels comfortable for you and how you want to represent yourself. But to be honest, yes, I think you do have to assume that anyone at any point can read what you are writing if you’re putting it out there, and that people will make opinions on you based on that. Of course, that can also win you work and friends and relationships, also. I mean I think there’s two sides of that. SWB: I also think that what might be safe for me to do is not going to be safe for everybody. I mean, I’m relatively established. I have a pretty strong network. I have a name behind myself. I’m also from a certain class, you know. I went to college! You know, for me, the tradeoffs don’t look the same as they would for somebody else. JL: You also a have a book, and this is like, something that we know you’re passionate about. So I’m not going to see your Twitter and be surprised reading it there. SWB: No, but in fact to write that book I had to have already made this choice. I had to make the choice to say, huh, I might alienate some tech companies that might otherwise hire me by writing this book. Am I okay with that? It was an uncomfortable choice that I still have fears about, but I guess—we talked about this in the last episode—but I realized that I was going to be unhappy if I chose the other option, if I chose not doing this. That was going to be something that I would regret. And so I decided that I was going to be really honest with myself, like, this might cause me some problems, but I am going to do it anyway, and I’m going to navigate those as they come, because it’s that important to me. JL: And finally our last question: “Who inspired you? Who made you feel like you could step up and be visible as a speaker, writer, etc.?” SWB: So there’s obviously lots of people who have inspired me over the years, and I think that’s true for all of us. None of us can boil it down to one thing or one person. But somebody I’d really like to mention, particularly in relation to the previous question about the personal and the professional, and how do you blend them, is Karen McGrane. So, Karen McGrane is known in the mobile content strategy and UX fields. She’s a wonderful speaker, and I used to see her at conferences and just think, what a badass. And I was so impressed by her work. And I remember one day, I used to edit a magazine called A List Apart, and we got a piece from her. It was supposed to be a column—she was a kind of regular writer—and it was entitled, “Give a crap. Don’t give a fuck.” And I remember getting that and thinking, like, oooh, can we publish this? And I think she kind of asked that question when she sent it, too. And she talked about how being great means being vulnerable, and it means not giving a fuck what other people think. And it was this kind of really intimate piece of writing, and it took me aback a little bit, because it was so good, and it was kind of unexpected from somebody who I thought had paid so much attention to crafting that professional profile. And I think that that’s when I first realized that maybe I could have some of that, too. Maybe I could bring intimacy and vulnerability into my work and into my writing, even writing writing about my work, and still be perceived as professional and still be perceived as credible. I went kind of like whole-hog that direction, and that kind of led me to where I am now. And so I’m super thankful for that, and I think about that a lot as a really inspiring moment in my life. JL: When I worked at Happy Cog, we had reviews every few times a year, and one of our goals was being, like, a thought leader in the industry. And so, we were all really encouraged to put our thoughts out and share. And that was one of the things I really loved about working there, this whole idea in the mid-2000s of really sharing what you were doing, and that it was just a community. And so I think between Jeffrey Zeldman and Greg Hoy, I had a lot of support of like, getting my thoughts out and putting myself out there and really talking to different people and trying to submit to conferences. And I did my first conference talk—it was a group talk—but I co-presented with Mark Huot. I did front-end and Mark did backend, and we were constantly pairing together, and so he was always super supportive of me. It was easier to get started with a friend, so that was an easy way to break in. Like, how do we do this? Well let’s do it together. And it feels way better to have had that person standing there next to me—literally next to me—while I was presenting. I made Mark go with me to every talk I was doing. [Laughter] SWB: He’s here right now. [Laughter] KL: Hey Mark! JL: Hey Mark! KL: On that note, I just want to say that both of you inspire me. I know that’s cheesy, but— JL and SWB: Awwwwwwww! KL: You do, because you’re both so smart and creative and funny, and I love being around you, and you just inspire me to try new things, and I’m just so grateful. JL: That’s awesome. SWB: Thank you, Katel. You inspire me, too. [Laughter] SWB: There’s a circle of inspiration now. KL: There’s a rainbow flowing across the sky right now. SWB: Well, before we spend the next 45 minutes talking about how we each inspire the other over and over again, I think we should move on to our very final question, which is actually a question all of you. We’d really love to hear who—and what—you want to hear on the show. Are there people you’d love for us to have on as guests? Are there topics that you’d really like us to tackle? Are there things that you’d like to be able to do, whether that’s getting up on stage and giving a talk, like Jenn was talking about, or writing a book, like I was talking about, or anything else that you would love us to talk about or bring experts on to talk about. If you have an idea, let us know. You can go to noyougoshow.com to send us a message, or tweet us @noyougoshow. JL : That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. No, You Go is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia. Our theme music is Maths by The Diaphone. You can find us online as Sara mentioned at noyougoshow.com, or on Twitter @noyougoshow. We’ll be back next week with another brand-new episode. [Outro music]

It’s the very first episode of No, You Go! Jenn, Katel, and Sara get together to talk about the itch to get out of a professional rut and start something new—whether that’s changing jobs, launching a company, building a side gig, or maybe even…idk….starting a podcast? > Fuck it, let’s just do it. Let’s be unapologetic women asking to do work, and to be paid fairly for it. > —Becca Gurney, co-founder, Design Choice Read on for more of what we covered, and read the full transcript for all the, like, verbatim quotes, you know? Show notes First, we tell the story of how No, You Go got started: Sara has an idea, but forgets that Austin Kleon already wrote a book called Show Your Work and narrowly avoids totally ripping him off. Jenn shares what it’s like to trade a thousand side projects for some stability—and, oh yeah, one super-cool baby. Katel opens up about how working at home alone can get, well, lonely—and asks us to join her “awesome after-school kickass club.” We all fully embrace the athleisure lifestyle. Next, we kick off the show—and 2018—by hearing how four women who made big changes last year knew it was time for something new: Becca Gurney, co-founder of Design Choice, tells us how the pay gap in the AIGA Design Census plus the 2016 election turned her from freelance designer to outspoken advocate for equality in design. Jenn Schiffer, community engineer for Fog Creek’s Glitch platform, shares how fear kept her stuck in a rut and not doing her best work—until an opportunity to build community for other engineers brought her life back. Lara Hogan, co-founder of Where With All, describes how meeting her now-business-partner led her away from managing engineering teams and toward building a consulting business. Mina Markham, senior front-end architect at Slack (and creator of the famed Pantsuit design system used by the Hillary Clinton campaign), describes trusting her gut to guide her through three new jobs and three cross-country moves in just three years. Also in this episode Archie’s hair, Cheryl Blossom’s lips, and why Riverdale is our favorite CW teen drama Shout outs to Call Your Girlfriend and Shine Theory Jenn’s rad formula for speaking fees post from the Nerdary California Style Sheets forever Lara Hogan’s Donut Manifesto Our endless devotion to Olivia Pope wine glasses Final tips from designer and educator Sam Kapila Many thanks to The Diaphone for the use of their song, Maths, in our theme music! _This episode is brought to you by Codepen—a social development environment for front-end designers and developers. Build and deploy a website, show off your work, build test cases, and find inspiration. _ Transcript JENN LUKAS: This episode of No, You Go is brought to you by CodePen: a social development environment for front-end designers and developers. It’s like a big virtual sandbox where you can build and deploy a website, show off your work, build test cases, and find inspiration. Your profile on CodePen is like your front-end development portfolio. Learn more and create your first Pen at codepen.io. That’s c-o-d-e-p-e-n dot i-o. JL: Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KATEL LEDÛ: I’m Katel LeDû. SARA WACHTER-BOETTCHER: And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. KL: In today’s inaugural episode of No, You Go, we’re talking about the itch to get out of a rut and start something new. First up, we’ll talk about how No, You Go came to be. Then we’ll listen in as a bunch of badass women tell us how they knew it was time for a change in 2017—and how they made it happen. Also on the agenda: our favorite CW teen drama, the politics of donuts, and breaking out the Olivia Pope wine glasses. [Clink] [Musical intro] How it all began [1:10] SWB: One day, I was actually out for a run with Katel. We were up in this really pretty park and it was the middle of all and we were crunching through the leaves, kind of miserably running some—some 10K distance so that we could justify donuts. And I started telling Katel that I had this podcast idea that was all about: how do you go from kind of doing the work, whatever your job is, to being able to kind of like show your work. Like, speak about it or write about it, or something. Like, how do you go from being somebody who’s kind of more heads-down to being more of that like active or visible member of your professional community? JL: Yeah! KL: Yeah! SWB: And I was like, I had this working title, like “Show Your Work” or something like that. And we were like, that sounds like a fun idea. You know, I just had a book come out in the fall and I was really interested in kind of helping other people understand what that process looks like. A lot of people ask me questions because they don’t necessarily know. JL: Me included. KL: And me! SWB: Yeah! Well, and that’s one of the things that we started to want to talk about, is like: how does that whole thing work? And that’s, you know, just one example, right? I mean, it’s not just writing a book, it’s also like, how do you go from working in a field to like, teaching other people how to do it and leading classes. Those kinds of questions. So, I really wanted to start talking about that more, and Katel was the publisher of one of my books, and so I thought she would be like an ideal person to talk about that with. KL: And I thought that was a great idea. I think “Show Your Work” was actually an awesome name for a show—we should do that also. JL: Let’s get this one off the ground first! KL: All right, okay. So, yeah, I am the CEO of A Book Apart and published one of Sara’s books—it’s amazing. And I moved to Philly about two years ago after living in DC for most of my life, and Sara and I became besties really quickly because we had a lot in common. Namely, loving slash hating running and hating running to love donuts, even more. So, one night we were all sitting actually at Jenn’s house, and we were drinking wine and watching Riverdale as we do—we’d all gotten together and [that’s] another thing that we loved and had in common. And we brought it up to Jenn and she got really excited. JL: To be fair, Sara’s giving me that look like, “I’m not quite sure I’m sold on the Riverdale.” SWB: No! I was just thinking, can we have a sidebar about Archie’s hair for a second? JL: Mhmm, Archie’s hair. KL: And now, did you know Sara’s really into Riverdale? JL: Ooh! Did you catch up? SWB: I am super caught up. And Archie’s hair is still ridiculous. And I’m pretty sure that Cheryl Blossom’s lip liner gets bigger and bigger every single episode. JL: It’s awesome. SWB: It’s gonna be her entire face soon. KL: It’s so good. Maybe that’s what I need to do, is just go big with the liner. JL: I love it. You know, I forget, Katel, if you told me this—I always had a problem with Archie’s hair but then, you brought up that like, it helps if you remember that it’s a comic book and then it makes the extreme-ness of his hair a little bit more acceptable. KL: Right, it’s like, it makes the TV show juicy, or like, pulpy? I mean… “juicy” is maybe not the right word, but you know what I mean! SWB: No, no, no, let’s stick with juicy. JL: No, I do know what you mean! And you know, sometimes we just have to watch an episode of Riverdale after a long day. SWB: For professional reasons. JL: But for me, it was super awesome because I just had a child ten months ago, yes indeed. And so, with a child and I’m back working full time—I work as an engineering manager and UI architect down at Urban Outfitters. And sometimes, my lovely friends will come over after my child goes to sleep and we’ll watch Riverdale and talk shop. Which is awesome, ’cause you start to feel a little bit alienated to some extent, from your previous life and you have this awesome new life going one. But then you like, miss parts of your old, so it was really nice to have my friends come to me so that I could keep trying to figure out how to make this balance work. And maybe balance isn’t even the right word, but to like figure out how I can keep doing things that I love along with the new things I love. So, it was super awesome. [5:00] SWB: Yeah, something Jenn has not quite mentioned, is just how much stuff she used to do in terms of like, speaking and side projects, constantly. Like, when I first met Jenn, every other week, I swear it was like, “Oh, I just started this podcast called Ladies In Tech,” or “Oh, I’m working on this web series called Cook Inside the Box, where we make recipes off the back of boxes.” And it was so cool to see her doing all this stuff, and like a lot of people, it’s really hard to do all of that stuff when you have really little kids and a lot of kind of, responsibilities at work. But what we want to talk about, is, how do we make space for some of that and kind of integrate it into our lives no matter what other stuff is going on. JL: That’s what was so nice about talking with you two, is figuring out how that can work. And I know you’ve both been amazing soundbars for me. And I feel very lucky to have both of you in my life and I think that is a lot about what we’re basing this podcast on. It’s like, how we can be stronger together with people who support us and figuring out how to do these things. Even if you’re working with new—and I mean, using a stretch here of calling it a constraint—but, we’re used to like, how we work with constraints. And this is just a new, different part of my life, and it’s really nice to be able to talk to y’all about how that works. KL: This also feels like just a really awesome after school kick-ass club that I’m super excited about. And I feel like, sometimes, you know I don’t have kids and you know that’s a really tough thing to figure into your life when you’re going from, you know, not having them to having them and a career and everything. And I think even for someone who doesn’t have them, it’s like, you’re still trying to manage a bunch of different things and figure out how to like, stay excited, and go outside and like, meet with people and hang out not you know, become a total hermit like I like to do. JL: Oh my god, going outside is so hard sometimes. KL: Exactly! SWB: But I think, this really speaks to the way that I think the idea for the podcast evolved. When we started talking about it with Jenn, what we realized is that, for a lot of us who, you know, consider ourselves ambitious and sort of really interested in our careers but also kind of non-traditional about it. Like not necessarily interested in only ever working at one single company and a lot of us, you know, work in consulting or small companies or we take on side gigs. You can sometimes end up feeling like you don’t have colleagues. And I think that that’s something I’ve heard a lot from—particularly from women the past couple of years. That they were looking for places where they could connect with other people who got their work, even if they weren’t traditional colleagues. And I really look at that as a big piece of what we’re doing here, is kind of taking the place of having that sort of peer group that you maybe used to have at an office. But if you work in lots of non-traditional settings, you don’t have that anymore. JL: And even when you do work in that, sometimes its you know, you still have a variety of interests. So as you said, I used to do a lot of side projects and that’s totally different than my full time job. So, I think, as we were all sitting on the couch and we were getting more and more excited, that’s sort of where the name of this show came to be. Right? SWB: Yeah, I think one of the things that was really funny about that, was that—so, I was sitting there as Jenn and Katel were kind of going back and forth, like, getting more and more excited and hyped about the show. And all of a sudden, they’re talking over each other and Katel—always the gracious one—is like, “no, you go,” and waits for Jenn. And Jenn goes, “that should be the name of the podcast.” And she kind of laughs and I’m like, wait, stop, no that is the name of the podcast now. So, that’s how we named the podcast and started thinking a lot more about you know, what kind of things we’d cover and where we’d go with it. So, kind of getting outside of that, just the idea of showing your work—although that’s part of it—but more thinking about, what are all the different ways or paths that people take to satisfy their ambition or satisfy their need to, you know, create stuff in the world. And how could we go about highlighting those and helping other people see the different kinds of ways their lives might look. And giving people a little more support along the way as they figure out what that looks like for them. JL: I think also, you know, we’ll talk about challenges of being ambitious. I think there’s a lot of things that all people, but especially for us as women, that we always have to balance, right? Being too abrasive versus being too nice and how we manage that in this world—to achieve some of the things that we’re trying to set out to do. SWB: I was thinking about, one of the other podcasts I really like, Call Your Girlfriend—the hosts on that show talk about shine theory. And for them, shine theory is this idea, like, I don’t shine if you don’t. So, the idea is you’re going to have you know, like, you want the smartest and most accomplished women by your side because actually everybody’s better when your friends are successful, too. And I think about that a lot when I think about this show because I’ve got some like, pretty accomplished women by my side working on it. And I think that that is an incredible way to look at how do we, you know, how do we navigate our lives, and how do we think about ambition. [10:00] Because we’re always looking toward these other people that we totally respect and that we can learn so much from, and they’re looking right back at us. And I think it creates this environment where we can be really supportive of each other and also get a little bit more comfortable kind of like, celebrating that ambitious side of ourselves and not pretending it’s not there. Which I think is often what women are expected to do. KL: Yeah, this actually tied back to, Sara, what you were saying a little bit earlier, about you know, having colleagues and we all work in kind of, I think, different setups these days. It’s not necessarily like, Sara and I don’t even go into an office most days, and we have meetings sort of from wherever. And even though you know, we’re all friends and we have—our professions and our careers are kind of intertwined because we work in the same field or area— we don’t work together physically. But we talk and speak and write about similar things and I think we have passions about the same things. And especially in terms of trying to lift other folks up and finding ways to actually do that. We all work in different setups these days and you know, a lot of us—Sara and I included don’t even necessarily go into offices everyday, but I think it’s really important to feel like you have some kind of camaraderie. Some kind of network that you’re able to rely on in your work and obviously outside of that work. For me, it’s been so critical because I literally work by myself in my home and I have—I work with a lot of team members that are just distributed. So for me to have folks that I can see regularly and talk about things that are related to the work I do is so important. I think I was really missing that from going from a big company like National Geographic to a company that was a small startup. That was a huge shock, that was a big change. You know, working with fifty people a day and then all of a sudden being by myself. So this has been incredibly important. I think being able to extend that and hopefully share that and build a community around that is super exciting. JL: Totally. SWB: Yeah, like I remember when I quit my last real job, which was in 2011, I was working at an agency. And I went from an agency to freelancing and consulting in doing content strategy and UX work. And at first, I will tell you I did not have this kind of network. I was mostly feeling really kind of alone in my work. And I would work on a project and get in with the team on that project but they weren’t really ever my team. And so over the years I’ve certainly like built up this collection of you know, like, really cool people who get what I do and who are just there for me. And that network has made all the difference. I don’t think that I would still be consulting, much less speaking and writing books and stuff like that, if I had not built that kind of community. And that’s something I want more people to experience because I think that it’s one of the only things that can kind of help keep you sane and happy. KL: I feel like the dream used to be work from home, and like work for yourself and you know, be your own bossa and sort of be the master of your own time. And it’s great, it has so much—it gives you a lot of freedom and there’s a lot of flexibility but it’s also very lonely a lot of the time and you know, I think you need to find something that actually helps you get through those lonely times. JL: Yeah. SWB: Yeah, like I want the yoga pants, but I also want the like, deep personal friendships. KL: Right! SWB: That come with seeing people really regularly. And so, you know, it’s how do we make a life for ourselves that kind of can bring us both. JL: I got news for you: athleisure. Is my office wear. SWB: Trust me, I have gone full force into the athleisure lifestyle and I am not looking back. So one thing that I do think about, though, in this whole conversation about kind of finding that community and helping to help others, you know, figure out what their path is, is that Jenn, Katel, and I—we really come from relatively similar backgrounds. You know, like we’re similar age and we’re all based in Philly, and we’re all white ladies with professional jobs. Having a lot in common is really good, but we do know that that could be a pretty limited view of what it’s like to work as a woman. In fact, it would be incredibly limited. So one thing that’s really important to us and that we want to do on this show is make sure that we’re bringing in people with a lot of different experiences and different backgrounds. And make sure that we are getting things from perspectives that the three of us would never have. [Musical interlude] JL: You know, speaking of hearing from other voices, I think it’s time we get into our main segment. But before we do, we are so excited to tell you about the sponsor who’s making this very first episode of No, You Go possible: Codepen. CodePen is a powerful tool that allows designers and developers to write code—like HTML, CSS, and JavaScript—directly in a browser and see the results as you build. Whether you’re new to front-end code or been writing it for years, it’s the perfect place to learn front-end programming languages, show off what you create, build test cases, get help on tricky problems—and find inspiration. Whenever I have a new idea and I want to get right to making it happen, you know, I don’t want to have to deal with setting up the environment or setting up hosting or build tools, I just go right to CodePen and start building. I can share that code with others on my team and see what they think about it, and then we can go from there. CodePen has so many cool things to explore—like CodePen PRO and Projects, where you can explore tons of awesome Pens. Get inspired and learn from others, and share with them at the same time. Sign up and get started by visiting codepen.io/hello. [Musical interlude] We introduce the badass lady brigade [15:30] JL: So how do we know when it’s time for something new? SWB: That’s a question we asked a bunch of women who had made big changes in 2017—job changes, life changes, that kind of thing. To get us started, let’s hear from one of our favorites. BECCA GURNEY: This is Becca Gurney, half of Design Choice, a graphic design studio in Washington, DC, where we have the aim of empowering women to lead, to get paid, and to be awesome. Our central mission and idea is that we almost make the conscious choice to pay women fairly for the work that they do, and before you can pay them you have to choose them to do the work. So for the four years leading up to this one, I had been freelancing, and I had just fallen into freelancing. I didn’t choose it, I didn’t really go out and take a risk and say hey, this is what I want to do. It was there and I did it, and I just kept doing it. But I had been feeling really unfulfilled and pretty aimless in it. I wasn’t doing great work. I was just doing work, and there was no real point to it. It was awesome that I could make my own schedule and I could go home to make jam whenever I wanted, because I was feeling jammy. But I didn’t think of myself as successful or empowered. And then the election happened, and I didn’t feel successful or empowered. And I was looking around at the leaders in our industry, which is mostly dudes, and I didn’t feel successful or empowered. The AIGA Census data came out and women in my area at my level are being paid $20,000 less a year than men. And so hey, I don’t feel successful or empowered. And the moments that sparked any sort of a feeling that felt good were the moments that I was with women, talking about being fucking unapologetic women. And how could I do that through design and Stacey Maloney was in a bunch of those conversations, and we said, “Fuck it, let’s just do it; let’s be unapologetic women asking to do work and to be paid fairly for it.” And we started Design Choice. JL: How awesome. SWB: I love so much about this. Fucking unapologetic women. I think we qualify, right? JL: I hope so. KL: I think so. Let’s get there if not [laughs]. SWB: Katel, how do you know Becca? KL: We got to be friends when I was in DC. I started working at a coworking space to try to get a little more face time with other human beings when I started this solo thing. And she was just awesome. We became friends really quickly, and we sort of went through some growing pains at this particular coworking space because of management that was not empowering and didn’t make us feel confident about working there, and we moved to a different one. We shared an office. We just really became good friends and got to know each other. Becca is one of those people who, you know that if she says something, that she’s going to do something, she’s gonna do it. She just shows up and she’s such a rock star. I hate using that word, but she is, she absolutely is. She’s creative and amazing and when I listened to this recording that she sent, I almost teared up because I was thinking, oh my gosh, I have felt so similarly—that feeling of like, you’re doing all these things that you’re supposed to be doing, you’re making the money, you’re going to the meetups, you’re doing all the things, but you don’t feel empowered and you don’t feel successful. And like, what is that? And trying to pull all of that apart and get at the root of why, and figure out what you’re going to do to change that, is huge. It’s so huge. And the fact that she came out of that and created this agency, and it isn’t just helping her feel successful and empowered, but also doing really fucking amazing work for companies that should be employing women, is just so rad. SWB: Yeah, I love this idea of her saying that this company is explicitly about hiring women and paying women fairly. And that’s really built into the fabric of it, and she’s not afraid to talk about it that way. Because I think about it in terms of how I spent my own year. [20:00] I think something that I did in 2017 is get comfortable with the idea that my work simply was political—that I couldn’t really create an artificial boundary between the things that I care about professionally, talking about a user’s experience of a piece of software or a website, and the things that I care about personally, which is basically all social justice issues. And so that really came out when I wrote my most recent book. It’s called Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, and essentially I am really taking a direct look at this tech industry that I have been part of for a long time, and highlighting some of the ways it’s gone really wrong for people who are often the most vulnerable or the most marginalized. You know, it was hard but I think I got to a place where I was no longer afraid of saying that out loud, and saying that in front of important people who, in the past, I would have been worried wouldn’t have wanted to hire me for consulting. And now, I’m thinking, okay, I need to find a way to make this an organic and natural part of what I do, because I can’t really live with myself otherwise. KL: Yeah, I think you’re totally right, and that whole unapologetic thing—I feel like there’s so much to unpack there, and something we’re grappling with it every day in everything we do. And I know for me it’s kind of like, you tear a little bit away and you’re like, okay, I made some progress. And then you’re like, but wait, is this fitting in in the right space? So I feel like hopefully, if we do enough of these, we’re really going to get in deep in terms of how people are doing that. JL: Becca wasn’t the only one feeling frustration. Let’s hear another story from Jenn Schiffer. JENN SCHIFFER: At the end of 2016, I was feeling really stuck in a rut. I wanted to do good work, but I didn’t feel like I was in a position to do that. I knew I was going to leave, but I wasn’t sure what I was going to do, and I was afraid to make any changes. But then I was very lucky and very fortunate because Fog Creek approached me about doing community engineering for their new product, Glitch.com. And so I’ve been there ever since, and it’s been great, and I feel like I’m doing my best work, and I’m making an impact. And so I’m hoping in 2018 to keep that momentum going. JL: Oh, Jenn Schiffer. She’s is constantly always saying such smart things, and I think that’s one of the reasons that I really just enjoy everything she does. I didn’t meet Jenn in person until a couple of years ago, but I started following Jenn a while ago because she was posting a lot of awesome humor-filled development posts, which was something quite unique, and she had a really great voice. SWB: You mean she trolled dev bros on Twitter? [Laughter] JL: It was the California Style Sheets post a couple of years ago, which is one of my favorites still, and I think it was awesome and it showed a lot of things, because, yes, being written by a woman, I think a lot of people thought, it must not be humor, it must be serious. And that was—ugh—sigh-worthy. But Jenn was awesome, and I followed that, and was lucky enough to have her on the podcast I used to run, with Val Head, Ladies In Tech, where we’d talk about public speaking and Jenn was a guest on our show. We were lucky to have her. She’s done a lot of awesome things. One of the things I love about Jenn is if there’s a gap or something that she wants, she makes it happen. She was living in North Jersey I believe, and working for the NBA at the time, and there was not a meetup and I think she went into the city for them. And so she decided to start her own North Jersey meetup. And so instead of saying, there’s nothing here around me, she started her own. And I think that’s such an important thing that we can do in this industry. And you can see it now, that she is starting something new again. And I think one of the things that she’s always done is helping people learn. A talk she gave recently she had this great quote: “We don’t learn alone.” And I think that’s true in this industry, but also in many industries where we are just better together and we learn more when we’re around each other. KL: You really feel like she’s bringing you along in the learning, when she’s speaking about—when she’s giving a talk or doing a demo or whatever. SWB: I think that’s one of the cool things about this new role that she has. She went from a role where she was doing a lot of programming to a role where she’s the community engineer. That means that she’s doing a lot more of that educational piece, and helping people make use of this tool Glitch, which is from Fog Creek. And what’s really great about it is that it’s a way to not just do the heads down work, but to be doing the showing your work and sharing of things, and making these things more accessible for people. And particularly making these kinds of tools in tech feel accessible to all kinds of folks, right? I think that’s a big piece of how Glitch has positioned itself on purpose, and that’s in no small part to people like Jenn, who are making it feel like a tool that anyone can pick up and use—and not a tool that only super elite programmers from one very particular background can pick up and use. [25:00] And so I love that about her, and I hope that continues to be a really good move for her, because that was an exciting “something new” that happened last year. Something Jenn talked about though, which I think is something that all of us can relate to, is that feeling of frustration, burnout, being bored, or just not feeling like you have space to do your best work. That’s something I’ve certainly felt. I’ve felt it at different points over my career, but certainly when I last quit my job, one of the big reasons is that I was working an ungodly number of hours. I was the last one in the office every night. I literally set the alarm leaving the office every day for like a year straight. And I simultaneously felt like I couldn’t get my head above water. I was trying to do so much, and it didn’t feel like I could go anywhere. One of the ways that I got out of that was quitting my job, but it wasn’t just quitting the job. It was also getting a new outlook to my work. One of the reasons that I quit my job was so that I could write my first book, which was like my first real effort to give my community some of my expertise and knowledge. And that was a really helpful reframe for me to get me out of that rut. And so I’m curious, have you guys had experiences where you feel like you’ve gotten burnt out or frustrated, and how did you move past them? JL: When I left my last full-time job to start consulting, I at the time was doing a lot of public speaking. I was away more than I was home, and I really loved it. That’s really what gave me the courage to quit my full-time job and start something new. There was something I really loved, I knew what I loved, and it was less being frustrated with anything I was currently doing, and more me seeing something that I really loved doing, and figuring out how I could make that happen. I really loved my job at the time, I was a development director at Happy Cog. But I had been doing it for six years. And it was definitely something I loved, but again, six years is a long time, especially in the tech field. And there was this new thing that I loved a lot. Being able to travel and meet people and teach was something that was super important to me, and for me to be able to full commit to that, it almost forced me—or gave me that boost that I needed—to quit my job at the time and go out consulting and have this freedom to do this thing. So, for me the driver was something I really loved and wanting to do, versus being burnt out or frustrated at a current job. SWB: Totally. I loved what you said about, it wasn’t that there was something wrong with what you were doing. Sometimes I think we get stuck in a rut because we’re like, well, I like the stuff that I’m currently doing. But for me at least, part of being happy does really come down to growth or evolution in what I’m doing. So it’s not a matter of me hating anything that came before necessarily, but I want to bring something new into the fold. New people and new experiences. I want something else to kind of keep it interesting. I want to keep it interesting, and if I’m feeling too steady all the time, then I think I’m bored. So I love this idea that it’s like, okay, is there something out there that you’re really excited about, or that you want to be good at that you’re not yet good at that can really drive us to change things up. KL: I’m gonna be real honest here and say that I’m currently burnt out, and I’ve been struggling with that I think for like the last year. SWB: Weird, how could 2017 burn someone out. How is that possible? [Laughter] KL: Yeah, exactly, It’s like, can you just be burnt out just from being burnt out? And I think I’ve worked through a lot of it, not that it’s something—I think at one point I thought, okay, like, this is something else I need to check off my list, getting through burnout. Which is not how it happens and not how you heal from it. It shocked me into realizing that I needed to make some changes in how I approached my scheduling and, you know, my work. But I think sort of related to what you’re talking about, not necessarily saying I need a different job or I need to change career paths. It’s like, before ABA, I would go to work, you do your job. That’s the thing, it’s this packaged thing. And now it’s not like that. A Book Apart is not like that. Granted I’ve been doing it for years, but it just—you start to think, okay, there’s nothing outside of it. Even though there’s lots of stuff outside of it, and I think I just needed to look for it. This is part of it. I think I’m starting to feel a lot less burnt out. I think I also got really confused—or not confused, I got worried, because I started to think that burnout is just fatigue, and it’s not necessarily just fatigue. It could just be you need a fresh take or a new project or whatever. [30:00] SWB: Yeah, and I think it definitely says a lot. The key to fixing burnout is not always necessarily career change, but sometimes it’s just like, perspective shift and remembering all the other things that you love. You know, people talk about work-life balance, and I always really struggle with that conversation, because work is really important to me, and it’s so intertwined with so many pieces of my life. So I don’t look at it as, work is over here and life is over there. But at the same time, I’ve lived the life where work was consuming me: “Oh, I’m writing this email at 11:30pm.” You know, when you stop seeing any distinction between those different parts of yourself, I think it can be really easy to get so sucked into work, that when things aren’t going well at work, it means that things are not going well for you. So it’s like, if work goes through a rough patch, your whole life sucks, because there’s nothing else there. KL: Right, it’s such a big part of what you do and who you are. And it’s something I never really paused to think about, moving from my twenties to thirties to forties, is that, like, that’s an ongoing thing. It’s an evolution. You don’t just figure it out and then it’s done. SWB: The kind of work that I do evolves all the time, so of course the relationship I have to my work has to evolve all the time to.. That’s only natural. KL: Right. SWB: I think it’s hard sometimes to remember that, because you think, “Oh, well, this used to work for me.” Well guess what, this doesn’t work for me anymore. I am in my mid-thirties now, and my needs are a little bit different. And there are things that I’m not willing to put up with anymore—thank god. JL: Yes. [Laughter] KL: Right. And you can be unapologetic about it. JL: Yeah, and along with being unapologetic, sometimes you really need to trust your gut. Let’s hear from Mina Markham about trusting her gut. MINA MARKHAM: To channel Olivia Pope, it all comes down to a gut feeling with me. When I’m presented with some new opportunity, I kind of do a gut check and see, is this something that I will regret not doing. And if the answer is yes, then I know what I have to do. I have to go ahead and make that change. That’s probably the only thing that can explain how I’ve had so much change in my life the past few years. I’ve had three jobs in three years, all of which required me to pack up my life and move to a new city and basically start over. Each time came with their own instances of doubt or of terror or sometimes just full-on panic, but none of which I have any regrets about doing. So I have learned to trust my gut, trust my instincts to know when it’s time for me to go ahead and make that leap. JL: Oh, Olivia Pope. Inspires me too, but I’ll get to that later. It just inspires me so much when people have the ability to follow their gut, especially when it involves moving. Sara, you’ve moved a ton. SWB: Yeah, I’ve moved a lot of times, and I’ve moved across the country, but I still don’t think I’ve moved as much as Mina Markham has. KL: Yeah, if you’re not familiar with her, Mina was at IBM in Austin at the beginning of those three years she talked about. Then she moved to Brooklyn to work on the Hillary campaign. Now she’s a senior front-end engineer at Slack. So that’s a lot of choices, and a lot of change. And I think trusting your gut becomes really vital in all that. I also think it’s how you get to a place where you actually know what it’s going to look like to have regrets or to not have regrets, and you become okay with it. You kind of can envision it a little bit more. It becomes a cycle that starts to repeat itself, which, that’s how you gain more and more trust in your gut. SWB: What she said reminded me of this column I read a couple of years ago. It’s an advice column called Dear Sugar that Cheryl Strayed used to run. She wrote a response to somebody who asked, like, I’m thinking about having kids, I’m in my late thirties or forty-ish or something like that, and I don’t know if I should, but I think I might regret it. And this person felt like having kids because they thought they might regret not having kids was a bad idea. Now, I don’t have kids. I’m not planning to have kids. But this column really stuck with me, because the way she responded to it, she was like, you know, thinking about your future self and what you might regret is one of the only ways that you can kind of make sense of choices. And she was like, this is actually a really healthy way to look at, like, is this something that I’m going to wish I had done later on? Once you do make a decision, then you have to think of it as other lives that you chose not to lead. I think she called it “the ghost ship that did not carry me.” So it’s like this other ship that you could have been on, but you didn’t take. [35:00] And that would have been this other thing, and you can wave at it from the shore, but it’s not yours. So I think about that a lot when it comes to choices, whether it’s those big life choices, or the smaller day-to-day work choices: what are the ships that I’m choosing to be on? And as long as I’m thinking about where my gut is, and I’m thinking about what is going to be a positive thing for future me, I usually feel pretty good about it. JL: I think this is another habit thing, where the more you get used to making these decisions and being okay with them, the stronger you probably feel being like, this is okay and I’m going to go for this. SWB: Yeah, totally. I think that it’s hard at first to know what does trusting your gut even mean, right? And so I think about, how do I know that I’m trusting my gut? You know, if I start doing something where it’s like, “Ugh, I should really take this project on,” or, “I should really speak at this conference,” and then every time I go to, like, write the email that would be the saying yes email, I get knotted up and I don’t do it, I’ve started to slow down and say, wait a second, why am I sort of hemming and hawing about saying yes to that email? And usually it’s because I have some kind of reservation or misgiving. Versus there are times when people ask me to do something or I am presented with opportunities, and my heart is immediately in it. Now, sometimes I have to say no to those things too, because they don’t fit for one reason or another, but knowing that immediate response of opening yourself up to whatever’s in front of you, versus pushing it away, that means something. And it’s worth taking the time to figure out what your body’s telling you, where that’s coming from. And I think that’s the very beginning of trusting your gut. JL: And sometimes it’s not just about making a decision by yourself. Sometimes you’re lucky enough to find someone else to help you decide what’s next in your life. SWB: Let’s hear from Lara Hogan. Lara is an engineering leader who some of you may have heard of, because it seems like she’s everywhere these days. She was a VP at Kickstarter, and before that she was a senior manager at Etsy, but she’s up to something new, too. Let’s hear about it. LARA HOGAN: How did I know it was time to start something new? In part, it was meeting Deepa, my business partner. She’s just incredible, and with her by my side, I feel like I can do anything. And I also knew that this was the time once I realized, working full-time at a company, I have to do a lot of things all of the time [laughs] that may of course just not be what I want to specialize in. But it occurred to me that as a consultant, I could do the things that I really, really love all of the time, and bring that help and support to a lot of different companies. And that’s just really intriguing to me. SWB: Okay, first of all, I want a Deepa. [Laughter] KL: Yes. SWB: So, Deepa Subramaniam is Lara’s business partner, and they founded this company called Wherewithall, that is doing consulting work on product teams and engineering teams. But most importantly, me and Katel actually had dinner with them a couple of weeks back. And watching them interact with each other and talk about their work, and the way their faces just light up. It’s so great to seem them coming together and creating this thing that they clearly are really passionate about on the work side, but also just as partners. They really make sense and they get one another. I thought that was so great to see. I’ve mostly worked in different kinds of consulting arrangements. Sometimes, me and somebody else will partner up on a project or teach a workshop together, but I’ve never had that kind of long-term, we-are-business-partners thing set up. And I think it goes back to what we said earlier, around how we sometimes have to make our own colleagues. It’s like they’ve literally created a business that allows them to have that kind of collegial relationship. And I think that that’s really powerful and something that’s kind of scary for a lot of us to do—to, you know, make such a firm commitment. But it’s great when it works, right? KL: Yeah, it’s like you wish, you know, and sort of dream about finding your soul mates in your life partner and your best friends. And I feel like it’s becoming a lot more, you know, that this happens with work now, and it’s just really cool. Like, you can work on projects where you’re like, these are the kind of people I want to work with all the time. And then you know what that looks like. JL: Yeah, and I think it’s amazing. But there’s also like, half- and quarter-way points, too, right? So, I think, as you mentioned before, we don’t necessarily traditionally work on the same types of things, but I love both of you, so having chances to work with you is great. And I just remember, like Sara and I, when we were both doing a lot of public speaking, we would go out to happy hour or we would go out to dinner and we would just talk about public speaking things. And even though Sara and I would be talking about completely different things, the business of public speaking was something that we could both talk to and learn from each other. And talk about how we were doing things, how we were organizing, how we were charging. How we were going to do logistics of things—and having someone I could talk to about that was, like, totally priceless for me. [40:00] SWB: Yes! You know, I think that there’s a lot of pressure in culture at large and definitely within the tech industry, to kind of not talk about some of this stuff. For example, don’t talk about how much you charge for things and how much you make off of things. And I know that that can be a touchy and sensitive discussion but I really think that only benefits the people who have the most power. And that’s so problematic. That tends to disproportionately affect women and it tends to disproportionately affect people of color, and particularly disproportionately affects people who are women of color. And so I’m really a big proponent of having as many open and honest conversations about topics like compensation as possible. Because I really think that the fact that we haven’t had enough of those is part of the reason that we hear things like Becca’s statement earlier on, where she talked about the AIGA survey. Which is a designer’s survey showing that women at her level were making $20,000 less than men. It’s certainly not the only reason, but part of the reason that continues to go on unchecked, is because we’re encouraged not to talk about it. So I’m gonna fuckin’ talk about it. JL: Yeah, I wrote a post in, I don’t know, 2015? 2014?—“A Formula for Charging Speaker Fees”—and it’s about… SWB: Oh yeah! KL: It was great! JL: And it’s still, I mean, it’s probably the most visited blog post on the Nerdery. And I mean, that site hasn’t been updated in over a year, but we still get traffic from that post especially. People looking for how to charge, how do I put numbers around something, and so I was thrilled that people are still finding value in that. Because, for me, it was really valuable to talk about it. SWB: So that’s the kind of thing, I think, if you feel sort of isolated—and it’s not just about money, really—but if you feel isolated in your field, or if you feel like you don’t know who you can trust, then you can never really get to a place where you have the confidence to then have that conversation with the people the really matter. KL: Or if you’re just starting out. SWB: Totally. KL: That’s a whole group of people who—like, I wouldn’t even know where to start if I was doing it for the first time and I just had no idea. If I had no idea what to base it off of. So if I found a resource that was helpful like that, it would be so valuable. SWB: Yeah and I think, you know, especially since things like money conversations—it’s like if you try to have one and you’re not that confident about it and you don’t really have any context. If you get pushback, it’s really easy to believe that you’re getting pushback because you were asking for too much. And you don’t have a frame of reference. So, anyway, I think building those relationships to give you more context and get more insight and feedback and, just like you have someone to bounce everything off of—it’s so valuable. I’m really happy to hear people like Deepa and Lara are teaming up because I think that the more of these kinds of powerful relationships between people that exist out there, the stronger any industry is going to be. JL: Completely, yeah. I think that finding advocates in your peers and finding that partnership is so important and valuable. SWB: A lot of the folks we talked to—they were kind of moving from working at a company to starting their own thing. Or otherwise kind of shifting gears in that more consultative way. Jenn, you went from consulting to going back in-house and then you had a baby, so you had kind of different sort of year with a lot of new stuff. But I’m curious: what did that look like for you and what made that work for you at this moment in your life? JL: You bring up a good point, Sara. I think a lot of times, we often say like, “oh i’m starting something new,” and it’s always about quitting your job. And I did that, as I mentioned before. SWB: Quitting your job can be great, let’s not lie about that. But it’s not always great. And it’s not always what you want. JL: And it was what I wanted for a really long time. And I think one of the hardest things for me, because of the vision that comes along with that—the freedom, the working from home, the yoga pants, the ability to do anything you want, essentially, is awesome. And then for me to recognize, you know, what was also awesome, was going back to a full time job. I started consulting for Anthropologie and I worked onsite a couple days a week and I was really enjoying it. I enjoyed the work I was doing, I enjoyed being in-house again, and I really enjoyed working on product as opposed—it was a different change from agency life. And I thought that that was such a nice change—and there was part of me that was really hesitant to go back full time. And, they’d offered the full time work, I still wasn’t sure, and I think part of it was just because I thought what I was supposed to do, was stay consulting. You know, I’d already quit my job—why would I ever go back!? [45:00] And then, I realized for me, that the full time job gave me a lot of stability, in that, in order to try new things such as: BABY. [Laughter] JL: For me, I always like to have at least one or two maybe, super stable things in my life when I try something new. When I first quit my job, I had a very stable relationship—now with my husband, also stable friendships, a lot of stable colleagues, that were really allowing me to try something new. Now I had again, this stability, that was like, ok, I feel pretty great—maybe I’ll go and try this new-fangled baby thing that I hear people talk about. And it was really great to have the support of the people that I work with, also, at the time, figuring out things like maternity leave, figuring out how to make the balance before I went on maternity leave. And so, going back for me, was like a little bit of a hard move but something that I knew was right for me at the time. And something that I really wanted to see through. Will I be full-time forever, I’m not sure! But for right now, I’m enjoying a lot about it. SWB: Yeah, I think that when people start a business or move to doing consulting or something like that, that’s often this sense of like, if they ever change course from that, I think it gets perceived—or there’s a fear that it’ll be perceived—as failure in some way. Or like taking a step backwards. And of course, life’s not really like that, right? There are times when something makes a lot of sense and times when it doesn’t. And I think that’s part of the thing I’m really interested in exploring more in this show. How do we figure out the next steps that are right for us, that allow us to continue to grow. And to try not to buy into some of those bullshit stories about what it means to be successful. For example, none of us have a goal of being tech company founders who go out and get a bunch of venture capital so that we can be the next unicorn company worth a billion dollars. I mean, I guess having a billion dollars sounds—no, I’m sorry, having a billion dollars actually sounds awful. It sounds truly terrible. Because I look at the people who are making that their kind of dream they’re chasing—and I think, would I be happier? I don’t think so. Would I be creating a better world? Probably not. What is really the draw of that except for the idea that it’s what a picture of what success looks like. And I think what I’m hoping we can do here is really talk about of different types of success. JL: Yeah, it’s like, when is the right time for you to do these options that we have. And you know, we’re so lucky that we have options, especially in the tech field where you have a lot of abilities to work agency, to work product, to go consulting. Lots of different options. So I think it’s as you said, not a one size fits all and not always a one size fits all for this time frame forever. SWB: So I know that having a baby was a big new thing, but I also know something that you told me when you were still kind of getting embedded in that job was that it was—and I think you mentioned it a little. You said it was a chance to work on product, which you hadn’t done before. And it you were telling me a lot about some of the challenges of working at scale at this big e-commerce company and all this stuff that was a little bit new. And I’m curious, do you feel like—not only did you create this stability for your but have you also been growing professionally in this new job? JL: Yeah, sure. I think one of the things that was really neat, as you mentioned—working not only at CSS architecture at scale, but also taking on management responsibilities. So consulting, I managed myself, and sometimes some other members of teams. But generally now I’m in a position where I have direct reports. I’m working more in the engineering team and helping people with their career paths again, is really interesting to me and definitely a new challenge. Managing is hard. SWB: People! You know? KL: People are wonderful, and hard, and wonderful, and hard. JL: Exactly. So it’s rewarding in a whole new way and challenging in a whole new way. I haven’t managed since before I was consulting, so it was fun to take that on again. But also just something completely new—it’s nice to see that at this point in my career, these different kind of challenges. But that said, focusing a lot on both the management and the architecture also sort of left this gap where I wasn’t doing as many of the things I was doing before with side projects. So trying to figure out—it’s again, facing this sort of similar thing as I had before, where I’m not burnt out on what I’m doing—there’s just something I love and I miss doing that also. So how do I also get this thing that I love in my life somehow. But not at the same scale as before. Because like I mentioned, it’s that balance. And it all comes down to scale again. Where, I don’t want to quit and got consulting and go travel all over the place again all of the time because I want to be home with some level of stability. But I want new projects also, so talking to both of you was really neat because then the idea of starting something new with this podcast came up. And this, for me, is so exciting, because it acts as an outlet to do a lot of things I loved doing in side projects while still maintaining a lot of this new stability that I found in my life. Fuck Yeah of the Week [50:15] SWB: You know when your friend gets an awesome new job, or publishes an amazing article, or finally pays off their student loans, and you’re so excited that you keep texting them in just like all caps and the fire emoji over and over again? Well, that’s the next segment here, it’s called the Fuck Yeah of the Week—and it’s where we share the people and the things that we think you all should be celebrating. Think of it as the podcast form of the 100 emoji. So Jenn, who is our very first Fuck Yeah of the Week? JL: Well, Sara, I’m gonna go ahead and say, it’s US! Fuck Yeah, Us! KL: Fuck Yeah, YES! JL: You know, I think sometimes you gotta take those moments and celebrate yourself, and I think we should be celebrating ourselves for getting this thing up and running! Here we are, we’ve talked about this idea, and now we are actually in the room recording it, ladies—we’re doing it! SWB: Yeah! JL: It’s awesome. SWB: You know, earlier we heard from Lara Hogan about her, you know, new business and all of that. But this reminds me so much of something that she started writing about years ago. She has a whole site about this—it’s Lara Hogan’s donut site, I don’t know what it’s called. But basically, what she does, is she celebrates every career achievement with a donut. And she started doing it because she realized that whenever something cool was happening, like she was getting a promotion, or she was accepted to give a talk somewhere, she would go, “ok, great,” and then move on to the next thing. And she wasn’t giving herself permission to celebrate that. So she started saying, “ok, every time something major happens, I’m gettin’ myself a donut.” And she takes a picture of it and she puts it on this website. And I think that that’s wonderful, because every time she has a new donut thing to celebrate, I’m like, “hell yeah, get that donut!” JL: Yeah! SWB: And I love that we’re able to do that for ourselves, too, because, yeah, I think we’re often taught to keep looking forward or don’t let yourself have too much of the limelight. And, I hope that anybody who’s listening to this can kind of give themselves a fuck yeah, too, for the things that they’re accomplishing. KL: Definitely, it’s so exciting to see how far Lara’s Tao of Donuts, essentially, has spread. Because you see other people taking photos, you know, of their donuts that they’ve gotten after speaking for the first time, or you know, doing a big demo. And that’s so cool, because you know it ties back to this thing that she, talked about, and that’s super cool. I hope that we see lots more photos of donuts, or your celebration. JL: Our second fuck yeah are these Olivia Pope wine glasses that we are drinking out of today. The Olivia Pope wine glass has always been, for me, my special donut moment. You know, on that show Scandal, when she drinks, and it just was like, “wow, where do I get a glass to just drown my sorrows or celebrate my joys.” Like, that is the glass that holds everything. They sell them at Crate & Barrel. Crate & Barrel is not one of our sponsors, but they could be. KL: They could be. [Laughter] SWB: Are you listening, Crate & Barrel? JL: But! I love these glasses because I take them out when I need to like, either, like, pause and be like, this is life right now, and this is just my moment to just like, take it all in. Be it good, be it bad. But like, here’s just a moment to pause and be like, “Fuck yeah, I got these glasses, and in this case, I got these friends, and I’ve got this wine, and I’ve got this podcast, so, it’s pretty good.” SWB: You know, if you haven’t seen an Olivia Pope wine glass, first off, it’s going to be in the show notes, but if you Google “Olivia Pope wine glass,” you know exactly—immediately—what we’re talking about. KL: It’ll be on our Instagram. SWB: But what’s really key about the Olivia Pope wine glass, is that it’s got a big glass, but it’s also on this long, really slender stem. It’s like a big-deal wine glass. It’s not just like, “Oh I’m having a quick glass of wine.” It’s very much like, “I am having wine now, period.” And, I like that because it does—it kind of creates that space, right? Like, you were saying, Jenn, it’s not just like that you’re going to pour yourself a quick glass. It’s that you’re pausing and taking a moment and you’re allowing yourself to have that bit of joy. And I think that that’s really important, even though, normally I don’t trust myself to use the Olivia Pope wine glass on the regular, but I want them to exist in the world. JL: That’s why I have six of them. [Laughter] KL: They’re great, because they have presence, yet they’re elegant. SWB: So, just like us? JL: Mhmm. SWB: That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. No, You Go is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia. Our theme music is by Philly’s own The Diaphone, from a song called Maths. In this episode, you heard Becca Gurney, Jenn Schiffer, Mina Markham and Lara Hogan. We’ll be back next week with Episode 2. [55:00] KL: Until then, we leave you with this advice from Sam Kapila, a designer and educator who’s always up to something new: SAM KAPILA: I know it’s time to start something new when I’m a little bit scared….the good sort of scared that inspires me to want to explore something new in a project, or in a job, or scared in a way that you might surprise yourself. It’s also important to start something new when you can’t stop thinking about a certain idea, and it keeps you up at night. It’s in your 3am journal on your bedside, and it’s something that you just can’t wait to start doing and be really proud of. And I think, any time you can be proud of something you are doing, that’s definitely time to start something new.

Welcome to the Season 2 Finale and special holiday edition of Design Driven. Recording this show was a lot of fun, and you’ll hear why as you get into it.This episode is great not just because it was recorded in person, but because of who the guests are and the special chemisty we all share.It was recorded at a villa in the North Georgia mountains during Web Whisky Weekend. A getaway for people who love the web. This kind of conversation was happening the entire weekend, so we decided to capture some of it for you. If you like what you hear, you should consider joining us at the next event.Details at webwhiskyweekend.comMy guests, Jonathan Snook, Jina Anne, and Greg Storey all have been designing things for the web, and leading the community towards better design for nearly two decades.Jonathan Snook is well known for his work with CSS. He’s written several books, spoken at literally hundreds of conferences, and helped thousands and thousands of people through his blog posts and generous contributions to many projects. He’s worked at Yahoo, Shopify, Xero, and done private consulting for a lot of other companies you’ve heard of. And being from Canada he’s one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet.Jina Anne has been a prolific designer, blogger, and community leader for well over 15 years. She led the Sass project, runs a Design Systems conference called Clarity, and manages the Design System community on Slack. She’s worked at Apple, Salesforce, Github, Amazon, and several other leading tech companies. She’s a world traveller, whisky aficionado, and lover of sushi and robots.Greg Storey created Airbag Industries, one of the very first websites I ever saw and thought, “wow, websites don’t have to look like crap”. He created a style that you just didn’t see back then, which inspired a lot of people to make their websites look great, too. If that isn’t enough, his writing has always been insightful, entertaining, and a bit provocative in the best possible way. He’s run small agencies like Airbag and Happy Cog, and worked for giants like IBM and USAA. He has a keen understanding of the business side of design, is always generous with his knowledge, and makes one of the best manhattans you’ll ever taste. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Dan Mall lives in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and is the CEO of Superfriendly, a design collaborative that seeks to connect talented and passionate people with design and development projects all around the globe. Since 2012, he and his company have worked with companies like: Google, Apple New York Times, Carnegie Mellon, About.com, Oreilly, TechCrunch, Entertainment Weekly and many more to produce delightful products and user experiences. Before Superfriendly, Dan was at Big Spaceship, Happy Cog and a Technical Editor at A List Apart. Dan is dedicated to elevating our industry and training designers. Right now, Dan is pushing the needle in the way large organizations connect with their users and their devices. From Insurance transparency to understandable and usable weather data to diminishing the barrier to a new career, Superfriendly and Dan Mall are working to widen the perspective of what design means to real people and how real people can impact the future of design. "I think that my mission, at least when it comes to work, is connecting people to opportunities, they wouldn’t have had otherwise. I feel like that’s the thing I’m good at and that’s the thing I can do for people and so that’s kind of what’s been on my mind lately." Dan has a unique perspective on the design community and the industry as a whole and has made it his personal mission to make a difference to improve: diversity in technology, mentorship career transitions and the overall training and building of design team to name a few. As a personal belief, Dan created the Superfriendly Academy to create an apprenticeship program that helps people in the process of making a career transition. He works to not only provide the opportunity for someone to gain a new career skill but the professionalism that goes along with that skill for that person to greatly succeed. On this episode we discuss: The concept and success of a non-traditional design collaborative, Superfriendly. Superbooked and how this product could help him and users like you maintain your professional network. The idea of the human connection and that working together is a good way to get to know each other better. How finding the right project for the right person can produce great results. The lack of diversity in the tech industry. The Superfriendly Academy and their apprenticeship program. The differences between and apprenticeship and an internship. Career transitions and the value of mentorship. The success story of Greg the apprentice. Follow Dan here: @danmall www.superfriend.ly Visit the Funsize website Subscribe to The Funsize Digest Check out Funsize on Instagram

The next step for Jeffrey Zeldman: this week Paul and Rich talk to the web design pioneer who, in Paul’s words, “designed the aesthetic of the web for a while.” They discuss his history as founder of the design studio Happy Cog and A List Apart Magazine, co-founder of A Book Apart and An Event Apart, and author of, amongst other titles, Taking Your Talent to the Web. They then discuss his newest venture, Studio.Zeldman, dig deep into the difference between an agency and a studio, and touch, controversially, on the pronunciation of “GIF.”

Imagine having an idea that leads to the birth of a community. That's exactly what Brett Harned did. As a Digital Project Manager, he knew the importance of the role and that nobody was talking about it. So, with the help of Happy Cog, he put on an event for Digital Project Managers, the Digital PM Summit. Would anybody show up? Not only did they show up, they left inspired and started local meetups all over the world.

Dana Pavlichko, Designer at Happy Cog, joins Gary Rozanc to discuss the ins and outs of content strategy from the graphic design perspective. This includes where content strategy fits into the overall design process, how it identifies the voice of the client, and how that voice should be driving the visual design. We also briefly discuss ways to safely get students into better drawing habits.

Allison

Allison

Allison

Amanda Buck Designer at Happy Cog joins Gary Rozanc to discuss the need for interactive designers to design in the different context user will view your work in. We also discuss the differences in designing in groups at a digital agency versus students designing for themselves in a class project. Finally, Amanda talks about designers fresh out of school needing to have a much better understanding of how typography works on the web.

Courtney Sabo Designer at Happy Cog joins Gary Rozanc to discuss why HTML and CSS needs to be taught in the very early stages of a graphic design students education to empower them to find their passions within design early on and encourage self-training. Courtney also shares how students can be better prepared for the industry be seeding interactive design principles alongside print design principles instead of separating them into individual courses. Finally, Courtney describes the contents of a good portfolio for both internships and a student’s first job.

Joe Rinaldi President of Happy Cog joins Gary Rozanc to discuss what it is like being a team player at an interactive design agency including how visual designers, front-end and back-end developers work together. Joe shares some tips on how students can better prepare their portfolios to demonstrate process to get a foothold in the industry. Joe also discusses the different methods of user research used to start a new client project.

Our guest this week is Brenna Heaps. Brenna currently works at GitHub, but previously was a project manager at Happy Cog. She managed several projects that Katie was a part of, so we asked her to join us on the show today to share her tips and advice on managing projects and teams, selling clients on performance, sticking to performance budgets, and more. Show Links: Val Head on Twitter Cennydd Bowles on Twitter Motion and Meaning Podcast Death to Icon Fonts Seren Davies Path to Performance Slack Group Paul Irish - Reddit Mobile Site Review Brenna Heaps Happy Cog

Dan Benjamin interviews Jeffrey Zeldman, designer, founder of ALA. They discuss the evolution of the internet, the web, web standards, Happy Cog, A List Apart, An Event Apart, and something new: A Book Apart. Original Air Date: February 1, 2010

Author (“Sass For Web Designers”), designer, and Dribbble co-founder Dan Cederholm (@simplebits) sits down with Jeffrey Zeldman to discuss using tools and templates versus rolling your own design and code, whether web design was really simpler in the good old days, his favorite Dribbble features, community-building, empire-building, freelancing in the early days of Happy Cog, and the joys of the fretless banjo. Links for this episode:SimpleBitsDribbble - Show and tell for designersA Book Apart, Sass for Web DesignersSimple Books – SimpleBitsDan Cederholm on The Great Discontent (TGD)Hello. – SimpleBitsSponsored by Thinkful (Visit the link to get 10% off) and Flywheel (Visit the link and use the code BIGWEBSHOW for 20% off).

Author (“Sass For Web Designers”), designer, and Dribbble co-founder Dan Cederholm (@simplebits) sits down with Jeffrey Zeldman to discuss using tools and templates versus rolling your own design and code, whether web design was really simpler in the good old days, his favorite Dribbble features, community-building, empire-building, freelancing in the early days of Happy Cog, and the joys of the fretless banjo.

The list of the product designers responsibilities goes on and on. When is it too much for one position to handle with quality? Maybe there's a different way to look at it all together. With many of today's industry leading studios closing up shop for one reason or another we are left with a lot of questions. Why are they closing? What does the future hold for design agencies? Funsize sits down with Greg Storey, former partner at Happy Cog to discuss these questions. Show Notes 00:00 Introductions 04:30 Product designer responsibilities 08:20 Specializations and generalists 10:20 Design is planning 14:18 The role has changed 17:15 Elevate your thinking beyond deliverables 19:50 "Design with intent" 21:40 Can a product designer be a product manager? 26:00 Affect of design in early stages of product vs post-MVP 34:22 Design with humility and diplomacy 37:32 Values to look for when hiring a designer 40:00 The future product designer Links Adam on twitter Bench.co @mantwan @rickmesser @funsize Anthony's talk adapting to change Anthony's tweet about designers needing to learn project management Visit the Funsize website Subscribe to The Funsize Digest Check out Funsize on Instagram

With many of today's industry leading studios closing up shop for one reason or another we are left with a lot of questions. Why are they closing? What does the future hold for design agencies? Funsize sits down with Greg Storey, former President and Partner at Happy Cog, to discuss. Show Notes 00:00 Introductions 02:20 News of the design agency being dead 04:00 The client is changing 15:30 The big small shop, design agency sizes today 20:40 Differentiate? Price, specialization, and great client experience 26:20 Distributive team? Play Halo 31:25 Teehan+Lax, what's an agency actually worth? 38:54 Career ceilings at agencies Links Greg on Twitter @brilliantcrank The Bureau of Digital Affairs Airbag Industries Teehan+Lax closing its doors San Francisco Design Agencies Feeling the Squeeze by Peter Merholz Visit the Funsize website Subscribe to The Funsize Digest Check out Funsize on Instagram

Do two letters in front of your job title change that much about you? Happy Cog's VP of Design, Chris Cashdollar, discusses that transition from working creative director to VP and what, if anything, changes.Chris also educates the gang on the Ramen Rennaisance, puts his two cents in on what happens when meetings go horribly wrong and steals Joy's heart somewhere along the way. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ryan Irelan is the owner of Mijingo and the primary creator behind its stream of popular tech tutorial videos. He’s also the Vice President of Technology at Happy Cog. He joins Brett and talks about both of those things, up until Brett derails the conversation with a Bruce Springsteen question.

Greg Hoy of Happy Cog joins us in the studio to talk about running small businesses, the generosity of small business owners, and Owner Camp. Then we devolve into talking about Greg Storey’s restaurant habits. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/lets-make-mistakes/message

A true leader, Greg Hoy can talk about management, marketing, leadership, design, and more. Greg also shares about Owner Camp and Digital Project Management Summit. And finally, what did it really feel like to have his employees give him a review?Huge thanks to our sponsors this week, FreeAgent and Harvest.

In this interview, Jeffrey Zeldman explains why you should use words and stories to frame an experience. He reveals his writing process and why good copy teases interest; and why making your content the focus, engages readers. Episode is brought to you by Designmodo.

Ryan Irelan joins me for a discussion about Mijingo, his company that publishes training videos for the web and his work in setting up a studio at Happy Cog.

Ryan Irelan joins me for a discussion about Mijingo, his company that publishes training videos for the web and his work in setting up a studio at Happy Cog.

Ryan Irelan joins me for a discussion about Mijingo, his company that publishes training videos for the web and his work in setting up a studio at Happy Cog.

Greg Storey (@Brilliantcrank) of Happy Cog and Airbag Industries is Jeffrey's guest in Episode No. 88 of The Big Web Show. The two designers discuss the Austin tech and design scene; on-premises versus remote worker models; Greg's upcoming book (with Carl Smith) for people transitioning to web design; new methods of publishing on multiple platforms; modern web typography; and the inspiration behind the Digital PM Summit.

Greg Storey (@Brilliantcrank) of Happy Cog and Airbag Industries is Jeffrey's guest in Episode No. 88 of The Big Web Show. The two designers discuss the Austin tech and design scene; on-premises versus remote worker models; Greg's upcoming book (with Carl Smith) for people transitioning to web design; new methods of publishing on multiple platforms; modern web typography; and the inspiration behind the Digital PM Summit. Links for this episode:https://twitter.com/Brilliantcrankhttp://www.airbagindustries.comhttp://www.gregstorey.comhttp://happycog.comhttp://dpm2013.comhttp://bureauofdigitalaffairs.comhttp://alistapart.com/article/readingdesignhttp://www.magplus.comhttp://xoxco.com/packagr/http://takingyourtalenttotheweb.comhttp://www.fivesimplesteps.comhttp://dribbble.com/Brilliantcrankhttp://instagram.com/brilliantcrankSponsored by An Event Apart (http://aneventapart.com).

Dan is an award-winning designer from Philadelphia, an enthralled husband and dad. He’s the founder & Design Director at SuperFriendly, co-founder of Typedia, and co-host of The Businessology Show – a podcast about the business of design and the design of business. Dan was formerly the Design Director at Big Spaceship, Interactive Director at Happy Cog, and a technical editor for A List Apart. He writes about design and other issues on Twitter and danielmall.com.

Dan is an award-winning designer from Philadelphia, an enthralled husband and dad. He's the founder & Design Director at SuperFriendly, co-founder of Typedia, and co-host of The Businessology Show – a podcast about the business of design and the design of business. Dan was formerly the Design Director at Big Spaceship, Interactive Director at Happy Cog, and a technical editor for A List Apart. He writes about design and other issues on Twitter and danielmall.com.

Dan is an award-winning designer from Philadelphia, an enthralled husband and dad. He’s the founder & Design Director at SuperFriendly, co-founder of Typedia, and co-host of The Businessology Show – a podcast about the business of design and the design of business. Dan was formerly the Design Director at Big Spaceship, Interactive Director at Happy Cog, and a technical editor for A List Apart. He writes about design and other issues on Twitter and danielmall.com.

Dalton Caldwell, CEO and co-founder of App.net, is Jeffrey Zeldman's guest in Episode No. 84 of The Big Web Show, sponsored by Happy Cog™.

Dalton Caldwell, CEO and co-founder of App.net, is Jeffrey Zeldman's guest in Episode No. 84 of The Big Web Show, sponsored by Happy Cog™.

Cindy Chastain, Creative Director & Experience Strategist at R/GA—plus actress, screenwriter, and freelance strategist—is Jeffrey Zeldman's guest in Episode No. 82 of The Big Web Show, sponsored by Happy Cog.

Cindy Chastain, Creative Director & Experience Strategist at R/GA—plus actress, screenwriter, and freelance strategist—is Jeffrey Zeldman's guest in Episode No. 82 of The Big Web Show, sponsored by Happy Cog. Links for this episode:@cchastainR/GALinkedinslideshareLanyrd: bioLanyrd: past speaking engagementsLoveless – the movieLoveless – IFC reviewHappy Cog

Ryan is presently the Vice President of Technology at Happy Cog. He’s also the owner of Mijingo, a publisher of training materials for web people. Ryan is also the publisher of EE Insider.com, a news and information website about Expression Engine. He’s also the author of ExpressionEngine 2: A Quick-Start Guide.

Ryan is presently the Vice President of Technology at Happy Cog. He’s also the owner of Mijingo, a publisher of training materials for web people. Ryan is also the publisher of EE Insider.com, a news and information website about Expression Engine. He’s also the author of ExpressionEngine 2: A Quick-Start Guide.

Ryan is presently the Vice President of Technology at Happy Cog. He's also the owner of Mijingo, a publisher of training materials for web people. Ryan is also the publisher of EE Insider.com, a news and information website about Expression Engine. He's also the author of ExpressionEngine 2: A Quick-Start Guide.

In Episode No. 69 of The Big Web Show, Happy Cog creative director Chris Cashdollar (@ccashdollar) and Jeffrey Zeldman (@zeldman) discuss the joys and challenges of redesigning typography mega-site Fonts.com; nimble versus waterfall; process versus inspiration; running a creative department that is interactive in every sense of the word; the two sides of a design education (learning and teaching); fostering collaboration; and the transition from doodling eight-year-old to graphic design student to interactive creative director. Christopher Cashdollar is a multi-disciplinary graphic designer with 12 years of interaction design experience. He is currently the Creative Director for Happy Cog Philadelphia, and an adjunct instructor for Drexel University's Westphal College of Media Arts and Design.

In Episode No. 69 of The Big Web Show, Happy Cog creative director Chris Cashdollar (@ccashdollar) and Jeffrey Zeldman (@zeldman) discuss the joys and challenges of redesigning typography mega-site Fonts.com; nimble versus waterfall; process versus inspiration; running a creative department that is interactive in every sense of the word; the two sides of a design education (learning and teaching); fostering collaboration; and the transition from doodling eight-year-old to graphic design student to interactive creative director. Christopher Cashdollar is a multi-disciplinary graphic designer with 12 years of interaction design experience. He is currently the Creative Director for Happy Cog Philadelphia, and an adjunct instructor for Drexel University's Westphal College of Media Arts and Design. Links for this episode:Fonts.com BetaArticles by Chris CashdollarChris Cashdollar on DribbbleHappy CogPhilaMade

Greg is the president of Happy Cog, an industry-leading, diverse group of problem-solving superstars, united under the common goal of making the web a better place to think, work and play. Greg writes on his own blog as well as Happy Cog’s Cognition about business practices, design and the intersection of the two in the real & digital world.

Jeffrey Zeldman and Dan Benjamin talk about lost offices, working from home, A Space Apart, A Book Apart's new books: Designing for Emotion and Mobile First, future friendly, police sirens, Steve Buscemi, and more. Links for this episode:Fred Jones (Scooby-Doo) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaScrappy-Doo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaScooby-Doo, Where Are You! - TV.comA Book Apart, WelcomeA Book Apart, Designing for EmotionA Book Apart, Mobile FirstBreaking Development 2012: Orlando: Web Design and Development for Mobile DevicesFuture FriendlyCognition: The blog of web design & development firm Happy CogJared Spool: The Cognition Interview - Cognition: The blog of web design & development firm Happy CogSponsored by Sourcebits, Handelabra Studio, and Shopify.

Happy Cog president Greg Hoy joins Dan and Jeffrey to discuss business, design, and more. Sponsored by Field Notes and iStockphoto.

Happy Cog president Greg Hoy joins Dan and Jeffrey to discuss business, design, and more.

In this episode we wonder about IE10, what’s really the top mobile OS, and have an interview with Kevin Hoffman (@kevinmhoffman), one of the Experience Directors for Happy Cog. He gives us some insights into one of the country’s best known web design firms, talks about working at the right level, and explains how to [...]

Ethan Marcotte and I talk about responsive design, the future of CSS frameworks that might support this notion, speaking at An Event Apart and what it's like for him to strike back on his own after a successful tenure at Happy Cog.

Jeffrey Zeldman and Dan Benjamin are joined by Jason Santa Maria and discuss mitigating the isolation of working in your underwear by reaching out to the community, avenues for creativity, struggling with the line between good enough and perfection, focus, why speaking and teaching are important, and why sometimes the distraction of working with other people is worth it. Links for this episode:Jason Santa MariaJason Santa Maria (jasonsantamaria) on TwitterDribbble - Jason Santa MariaMighty, a Design StudioTypekitTypedia: A Shared Encyclopedia of TypefacesAIGA/NYA List ApartHappy CogWhat deux yeux have teux deux teuxday?Sponsored by An Event Apart.

We're mixing it up for today's episode of The Big Web Show. Instead of interviewing one or more amazing web innovators per our standard practice, Dan Benjamin and Jeffrey Zeldman interview each other. Links for this episode:HivelogicDan Benjamin (danbenjamin) on TwitterHappy CogHappy Cog Studios (happycog) on TwitterJeffrey Zeldman (zeldman) on TwitterA List ApartA List Apart (alistapart) on Twitter5 by 5 Studios (5by5studios) on TwitterA Book Apart, WelcomeA Book Apart (abookapart) on TwitterAn Event Apart: The Design Conference For People Who Make Web SitesAn Event Apart (aneventapart) on TwitterstopdesignDoug Bowman (stop) on TwitterJason Santa MariaJason Santa Maria (jasonsantamaria) on Twittermeyerweb.comEric A. Meyer (meyerweb) on TwitterAdactio: Jeremy KeithJeremy Keith (adactio) on Twitter

This week on the show we were joined by web and graphic designer Jason Santa Maria. We got a chance to talk to Jason about his work at Happy Cog, his personal work, projects like the Wordpress admin, the differences in designing for print and web, and we got to ask him some listener questions. We also announced the winner of the MyFonts $100 gift certificate. As always, give us an email at readbetweentheleading@gmail.com, send us a tweet @rbtlshow, or give us a call at 646-402-5686 ext 20248. We’re always looking for interesting design stories, so call or send them in. For more detailed shownotes, visit http://rbtl.us/post/105125819