Podcasts about inbetweens

Another week, another NBA show! Teams are starting to find their feet and others need to get out of the locker room. Reporters are being shoved and statues are being erected. Which would you rather be? Tune in for the happies, unhappies, and A NEW SEGMENT! ------Spotify Subscribe here!Twitter: https://twitter.com/5thanddribbleInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/5thanddribble/Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@5thanddribble------Special Thanks to the regular sponsor of the show: Dubby!Use Code: 5THND for 10% offWebsite: https://www.dubby.gg/---Also thanks to the new sponsor of the show and host of the 5nD studios: Fortitude Strength!Website: https://www.fortitudestrength.com.au/---Final thanks go out to the sponsor of our new segment: The Bane Game, brought to you by TBC Live.Website: https://www.tbclive.com/Timecodes:00:00 Intro03:04 Team check-ins09:07 Happies22:27 Unhappies26:33 Inbetweens

Week 1 of the NBA has come and gone. Fantasy leagues have started, everyone has played, and here are some of the thoughts coming out! Tune in for the happies, unhappies, and inbetweens!------Spotify Subscribe here!Twitter: https://twitter.com/5thanddribbleInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/5thanddribble/Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@5thanddribble------Special Thanks to the regular sponsor of the show: Dubby!Use Code: 5THND for 10% offWebsite: https://www.dubby.gg/---Also thanks to the new sponsor of the show and host of the 5nD studios: Fortitude Strength!Website: https://www.fortitudestrength.com.au/---Final thanks go out to the sponsor of our new segment: The Bane Game, brought to you by TBC Live.Website: https://www.tbclive.com/Timecodes:00:00 Intro04:21 Team check-ins11:56 Happies20:23 Unhappies26:26 Inbetweens

Join us as we look at two documentaries covering the history of Looney Tunes directors! We look at a project that has roots in the 90's and 2000s with the works of Friz Freleng in 'Friz on Film' Followed up by every person Marc and Jordan ever knew and admired as kids with 'Chuck Jones: Extremes and Inbetweens"

IndieRE radio broadcast #65 by Neodvisni obalni radio, Koper - Capodistria, Slovenia The 65st edition of IndieRE is the first edition of the INDIRE radio show, produced by Independent coastal radio from Slovenian coastline, to be exact Koper. In this radio show we will present some songs and new relises of artists from Slovenian coast of which two - Spiran Mind and Caro mio, are also guests of this show. Continuing with presenting a few other local artists dreamy and electronic musician and singer Ita Kora, grunge rock band Free The Mouse and a local DJ, producer Čunfa. Starting with Spiral mind, a trans - genre electronic music consisting of Manuel Brajnik(electric guitar, synthesisers), Rok Babič(bass, synthesisers) and Gaj Bostič(drums), with the occasional help of Matej Novak on saxophone. As in uverture we will listen to their soing Lagos from their lates album The Inbetweens. FEATURED ARTISTS/PRODUCERS AND LABELS: Spiral Mind: bandcamp / fb / insta Kapa Records: youtube / fb / bandcamp / web Caro Mio: youtube / bandcamp / Ita Kora: bandcamp / fb / insta Čunfa: bandcamp / fb / soundcloud Free the Mouse: youtube / fb PLAYLIST: SPIRAL MIND – LAGOS [4:01] (album: The Inbetweens, Kapa Records, 2022) SPIRAL MINDHEXAGON VALLEY [6:29] (album: The Inbetweens, Kapa Records, 2022) CARO MIO - PRAZNA CES [3:26] (single, self-released, 2022) CARO MIO – MUZIKA [3:15] (single, self-released, 2023) ITA KORA - SO MANY DREAMS [3:54] (Ikatarla EP, self-released, 2022) FREE THE MOUSE - SAINT YOU [7:04] (Radio Unfriendly ver., self-released, 2023) ČUNFA - DREAM FAIR [5:12] (album:Dream Fair, self-released, 2021) Produced by Neodvisni obalni radio, Koper – Capodistria, Slovenia. Prepared, announced by Natalija Gajić. Sound mixing by Jan Bajc Funa. - IndieRE [Independant Radio Exchange] is a project co-funded by the Creative Europe programme of the European Union https://indiere.eu

Abbie McCarthy is an award-winning TV / Radio presenter & DJ, you'll find her hosting BBC Music Introducing in Kent on the airwaves every Saturday night and also bringing great new music & fun interviews to your TV screens on 4Music and E4 Extra with Fresh This Month. Abbie is known for bringing the party with her DJ sets and this year has played at a whole host of festivals, including Glastonbury, Latitude & Knebworth, as well as playing several arena shows. Abbie is also the host and curator of popular gig night Good Karma Club, which has put on early shows for the likes of Tom Grennan, Mae Muller, Easy Life & many more and has even featured some famous faces in the crowds over the years - Alex Turner, Lewis Capaldi & Wolf Alice. Abbie's huge contribution to both the radio & music industry was celebrated when she was inducted into the Roll of Honour at Music Week's Women In Music Awards 2018. Abbie has been highlighted by the Radio Academy as one of the brightest young stars in radio, recently featuring in their esteemed 30 under 30 list and winning Silver for Best Music Presenter at the ARIAs 2020. Aside from music, Abbie's other passion is sport, which really shines through in her entertaining coverage on Matchday Live for Chelsea TV. You'll also find Abbie guesting frequently on BBC Two's football show, MOTDx and doing online coverage for England and the Lionesses football teams. How has she been so successful already, especially having just recently been diagnosed, and what advice does she impart to us? Enjoy!  In this episode Peter and Abbie McCarthy discuss:   00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 00:47 - Intro and welcome Abbie ‘AbbieAbbieMac' McCarthy! 03:00 - So you just got diagnosed a year ago, so tell us your backstory? 05:51 - What rituals have you put into play for yourself to be able to get through the boring stuff? 07:00 - Do you get a dopamine release after having completed a list, or boring stuff? 07:38 - Who happens when you have to quickly adjust course? How do you balance your dopamine producers at all hours of the day and night, as various types of work demands? 10:30 - How do you handle negative criticism, and keep performing at one hundred percent even on tough news days? 12:32 - What have you had to fight through with respect to your being a Millennial, and a Female in a often-times patronizing industry? 14:23 - Americans are learning more about Premier League Football thanks to Ted Lasso. Who's your team? 14:40 - How can people find more about you?  Web:  https://abbiemccarthy.co.uk Socials: @AbbieAbbieMac everywhere:  Twitter  INSTA  TikTok  FB This was great- thank you Abbie!! Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  16:00 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: [00:00:40] Peter: Yo, everyone! Welcome to Faster Than Normal, another episode. Thrilled to have you as always. We got someone fun today to talk about- Abbie McCarthy is joining us from the OK. She's an award-winning TV and radio presenter and DJ. Okay, you'll find her hosting BBC music, introducing intent on the airwaves every Saturday night, and also bringing great new music and fun interviews to your TV screen on 4 Music and Eve four extra with fresh this month. She brings the party with her DJ sets. She has played a whole host of festival. She's played Glastonbury, Latitude & Knebworth, as well as playing several arena shows and she's serious. Like, no joke. She doesn't, she doesn't fuck around. You're gonna, you're gonna like this one. She's the hosting curator of popular Gig Night. Good Karma Club. God, what else has she done? Uh, she was nominated, she was inducted into the role of honor at Music Week's, women in Music Awards 2018. She's been highlighted by the radio academy as one of the brightest young stars in radio, recently featured and their esteemed 30 under 30 lists and winning silvers for best music presenter at the Arias 2020 I. Being in PR week, magazines 30 under 30, and I'm now 50. So yeah, now I'm all pissed off. It's gonna be a shitty interview. All right. Anyway, Abby, welcome. I feel old. How are you?! [00:02:03] Abbie: Oh, I'm good, thank you. How are you? Thank you so much for having me.  [00:02:05] Peter: I'm thrilled to have you. So you came to us because you, you were reading Faster Than Normal, the book, and you identified with it, and you found yourself in it. [00:02:13] Abbie: Absolutely. I really loved it. I just loved the whole concept of it. The fact that you kind of said our our brains are like Lamborghinis. They just work faster than everybody else. But if you do the right things, you can use it quite efficiently. I thought it was a really nice way to approach it. Cause I think there's some books that you read and it's about kind of, Dismissing that you have A D H D or kind of not embracing it. But I thought that the whole approach was great and yeah, I took so much from it. And because I've only recently been diagnosed, it was such a useful book to lose myself in. I actually managed to read it in a couple of days and obviously everyone listened to this that has a D H D knows that's not always, that's not always easy. So I think it, uh, became my hyper focus for a couple of days. I really enjoyed it.  [00:02:56] Peter: Very true. We don't, we don't normally finish things like that. Um, now tell us, so, so you just got diagnosed a year ago, so tell us your backstory. Tell us about what it was like growing up before you were diagnosed. What was it like as a kid? Did you, what was school like for you? Things like that. [00:03:10] Abbie: I think I'm one of those classic people where, I was, I was, I was okay at school. I got like fairly good grades and I was always being told off for talking too much, which obviously makes a lot of sense now and I think that would happen more and more in the classes of things that I wasn't particularly interested in. Uh, you know, you mentioned at the start, I do lots of different things within music and, and some within sport as well. So I'm, I'm a creative person, so some of the more academic subjects I didn't particularly like, but I. Was Okay and, and got good grades, um, which maybe was why it wasn't picked up, I guess, when I was a teenager. Uh, but I, it's, I have this thing where I guess I. I just always felt like I was different, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why. And you know, even as I've got older and I've got to do some great things in my professional life, like being on the radio to me is my dream job. I still can't believe I get to do that. I get to go on the airwaves, pick amazing music, and connect with people and share it with them, but that's awesome. You know, it's, it's. It's, you know, you might look at me and be like, oh, she's getting to do her dream job. But then it's like, it's more like all the things I struggle with at home, I guess. It's like, you know, keeping on top of errands and, and things like that and organizing other aspects of, of my life. And I think that's the thing with A D H D, isn't it? Someone on the surface might look a certain way, but you never know what's. Going on in, in somebody's head. Do you, you know, my brain is racing constantly. Yeah. Um, but you know, I've, I've managed to, to hold down a job and I guess I'm lucky because it's , it's, it is in things that I'm interested in, so that makes it easier too.  [00:04:50] Peter: Well, that's, I mean, that's really the key. You know, we, we all have to realize, you know, there are people who, who don't have faster than normal brains who can just sort of wake up, go to their job every day, do it for 40 years, retire, get their little gold watch, you know, and, and whether they love the job or not, is irrelevant to them. I. It's a means to an end. It's a way to make money. If we don't love what we're doing, we're not doing it well.  [00:05:10] Abbie: Yeah. Or you just don't wanna do it full stop. Exactly. So I feel so blessed to be doing something that I absolutely love and I. I'm so excited to go into work every day and the, you know, what I do is really varied as well, which I think works with our brains too. Like, I'm not gonna get bored. Each week can be very, very different. Sometimes I'm in the studio doing a radio show, then it's something like festival season where I'm kind of here, there and everywhere DJing. It might be going to interview somebody, you know, on the other side of the country. It might be going to a gig somewhere else. So it, it's, yeah, it's, it keeps it interesting. It's, it keeps it lively.  [00:05:43] Peter: Tell me about, um, so let's talk about the stuff you're not that great at. Let's talk about like, you know, what is it like to, you know, running the errands, things like that. What kind of, um, sort of rituals have you put into play for yourself to be able to get through the, the, the, the boring stuff? [00:05:57] Abbie: I actually got this piece of advice from somebody on social media when I first posted that I'd got a diagnosis and they were saying the things that you don't enjoy, things like housework and errands and food shopping. It's almost like, think of it in a different way, sort of set yourself, um, a bit of a competition or like, so you're trying to do it in the quickest amount of time or, you know, you set yourself a reward once you've finished it, things like that. So then actually that those, those activities aren't just draining. You are in some way getting a little bit of dopamine and I think it's just like picking the right time in the day to do some of this stuff as well. I think now I try and get up, exercise is a big one for me and I know it's for, for you as well from, from reading your book, getting up, going to the gym, even if I don't feel like it, which I don't a lot of the time, I always feel so much better afterwards than kind of getting all of those errands and boring things out of the way and then I can just enjoy the rest of my day and I kind of don't feel the guilt that I haven't done all the, all the adult things I guess that I think I should have.  [00:07:02] Peter: Well, it's interesting because that there is a, there are some studies that say that getting the boring stuff and stuff that you don't love getting it done is actually a dopamine release. Um, once they're all, not from doing them per se, but from that feeling you get of, oh, I don't have to do them anymore because I did them.  [00:07:17] Abbie: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You actually completed something that you set out to do, so that's gonna give you a buzz, isn't it?  [00:07:22] Peter: Talk about, uh, some times where it's not that easy. Have things happened, whether you are in, uh, you know, whether you're at work or whatever? How do you deal with the things that, you know, you're, you're going a million miles an hour, right? When you're, when you're DJing or when you're working whatever, you're going a million miles an hour. What happens when you have to adjust course, uh, suddenly when you suddenly, you know, find yourself going off track or something like that. How do you keep yourself going, especially in a high energy job like that, because there's really only so much dopamine mean you can give. Uh, to get through over the course of a day, right. At some point, you know, I know that, that if I time it right, I give a keynote, I get done with the keynote, I get into the airport, get back onto the plane, and that's when I pass out. Right. So, how are you sometimes you're doing, I, I, especially as a DJ you're doing late, late nights, right? You know, into, into the wee hours in the morning. How are you holding that up? How are you keeping yourself aligned?  [00:08:14] Abbie: I think when I am DJing or I'm, yeah, playing a big event, I get so in the zone. I get so pumped for it. So I kind of have enough energy to, to get through it. I think the thing that I struggle with the most is when I've had, you know, a really great run of work, so something like festival season or because I work in football, you know, the, the Premier League season that we have over here. I've just been getting to work on loads of games with that. When that stops and there's just naturally a tiny little lull in work, and I say a lull, it's like four days or something, and. Get really down cuz I'm like, I dunno what to do with all of this energy that I've got. I almost dunno how to, to harness it. And then I have a real low and I'm kind of waiting for the buzz and the high again of, of doing all the things that I love. And I think that's been a learning experience for me is when I have these days off. Which I really crave when I'm in the thick of it. You know, when you are like working back to back and you're traveling everywhere, you can't wait for a day where you are. You can just not think about work and relax. But when it gets to those days, I find it really hard to actually lean into them. So that's something I need to work on to be honest. Um, but the other thing that I think is a bit of a struggle in the job that I do, and maybe you'll relate to this or other people will relate to this. Do more of a kind of public facing job is, you know, the sensitivity we can have to rejection and criticism. It's very much part of my job, you know, it'll be like, I'll be presenting something or I'll send off a show reel sometimes I'm super lucky and I get the job. Sometimes I don't. That's just part of the business, but I might then be really upset about that for a little while, and I think sometimes. The emotional deregulation thing. I can f I can feel a little bit. So that can be hard. I guess if you are, you're in the fields and you're not feeling so great and then you've gotta, you know, go on air and give people a good show, give people a good time. But sometimes I imagine that's a savior because you kind of have to put on this. I thought, great, let's have a good time. And you're doing it for other people. You're doing it for that feeling. It'll give somebody else. And the connection that you have with you and your listeners is really special. So you kind of wanna keep that. So sometimes in a way it can get you out of your funk, which I think is good.  [00:10:30] Peter: That's actually a really interesting point because I imagine that, you know, especially as a creative right, you do these amazing DJ sets, you, you're, you know, on the radio, whatever, and then yeah. You know, millions of people might love it, but there's one person who posted comments somewhere that's negative and that's all we think about, right? The same thing happens to me in keynotes. Mm-hmm. , but it's a real, you, you, you gave us a really interesting point, the concept of going on stage and having to put on that smile regardless of whether you're feeling it or not. You know, you don't have a choice, right? Mm-hmm. . So I would think that, yeah, in a lot of ways that's probably very, very helpful because you know that which you believe you eventually achieve, so, right? So, so you, you put that happy face on, you give that speech or you, you do that set at the end of it, you're gonna have that dopamine regardless. So it's a nice sort of, a nice sort of, uh, I guess, cheat sheet to get out of it.  [00:11:20] Abbie: Yeah, it actually is. Yeah, cuz it kind of gets you into that mental space, even if you really weren't feeling it beforehand. It might be, you know, you've got some really bad news an hour before I'm gonna go on the radio, but then as soon as I'm on the radio, I'm there to. I'm there to give it everything and to hopefully, um, bring people great music but also, you know, some good stories and, and keep them company as well. So it can be very useful cuz it can definitely switch you into a more positive place. And like you say, access that dopamine that we are always searching for. [00:11:51] Peter: Tell us about, um, how, first of all, how old are you, if you don't mind telling us.  [00:11:54] Abbie: I'm, uh, I'm 32, so I got diagnosed when I was say 31.  [00:11:58] Peter: You're 32 and you're female, and you're in an industry that's predominantly male focused and male driven. Right? So you are coming in as sort of a, I guess, uh, what are you, A millennial, I guess. Are you a millennial or Gen Y? What are you?  [00:12:10] Abbie: Yeah, I'll be, I'm a millennial. I wish I was a Gen Z yeah.  [00:12:12] Peter: You're in the cusp of a millennial, right? You're coming as cusp millennial. Tell us about some of the fights you've dealt with and some of the battles you've fought coming in as a millennial, a neurotypical, a neuro atypical millennial, um, who's a female in this male dominated industry. Right. You've, I'm, I'm sure you've, you've had to step up several times, both in, in football as well as DJ ing,  [00:12:32] Abbie: Yeah, I feel like I feel it the most as a DJ actually to be honest, where you'll turn up to DJ at a festival and a club and predominantly a lot of people working in that industry, it is changing, which is great to see. But a lot of people working in that industry, uh, are male. And sometimes you can get a few patronizing kind of sound engineers who are like, oh, do you know how to use the equipment? Do you need any help with that? And you're like, yeah, that's why I'm here. I'm here to, I'm here to dj. I'm here to do the thing that you booked me for. Or the, or, you know, the, the place book before. So I feel like you can experience a bit of that and I think a lot of stuff like where, you know, you are doing as good a job as your male counterparts, but you're probably not getting paid the same. But I think so much is changing. There's a real positive shift in like entertainment, in music, in sport. To, to even things out. But I do, um, some stuff for, uh, for B B C sport and uh, a sport. Chelsea, sorry if you don't, or sorry if people listening don't. So I do some of their matchday live programming as well, and I, I sometimes feel most vulnerable being like a woman in sport. Cause I think often people are just looking to just dismiss what you say because that industry is still so, so male dominated. That one's probably got the most catching up to do. Um, so dealing with that sometimes, but then it's, I think sometimes you just have to, although we find it hard, it's like shut out the outside noise and, and thoughts and just have real confidence and belief in what you are doing and what you are saying. That's the only thing you can do.  [00:14:10] Peter: Shut out the outside thoughts. I love that. So I've actually been a, I've been a Premier League fan for, for years, and I can tell you over the past few years here in America, I'd say millions more people have suddenly learned about non-American football thanks to Ted Lasso. So I think that, um, people are definitely learning a bit more , um, about it. What is your, who's your, who's your team?  [00:14:31] Abbie: Uh, Chelsea. Chelsea Football Club. Yeah, I've been a fan since I was like six or seven. So the good times and the bad times, and the Inbetweens .  [00:14:40] Peter: Very cool. I love this, Abbie! This has been so much fun. How can people find you?  [00:14:44] Abbie: Uh, people can find me on socials, uh, a Abbie Abbie Mac. That's my handle on everything. So A B B I E. Um, yeah, come and say hello! You know what? Us people with A D H D are like we, we love to connect. So yeah, please do, uh, get involved. Gimme a follow and uh, shout me in the dms and thank you so much again, Peter. It's been so fun.  [00:15:04] Peter: Oh, I'm so glad to have you! Guys listen to her stuff. She really is amazing, Abbie it's pretty incredible. Abbie McCarthy, thank you so much for taking the time.  Guys. By the time this comes out, you will probably. Have already heard the news that, uh, Faster Than Normal is being turned into a kid's book. It is. I can give you a title now. It's called The Boy With the Faster Brain, and it is my first attempt at writing a children's book and I am so excited. So I will have links, uh, on where to purchase and how to purchase and how to get fun stuff like that and how to have me come in and, and talk to your schools and your kids and, and whatever soon enough. So stick to that. As always, if you know anyone that we should be interviewing, shoot us a note. Just people as cool as Abbie and all and above only. Those are the only ones we want. No, I'm kidding. Anyone, anyone you think has a great story, we would love to highlight them on the podcast. My name is Peter Shankman. I'm at Peter Shankman on all the socials. We're at Faster normal as well, and we will see you next week. Thank you for listening and keep remembering you are gifted, not broken. We'll see you soon! — Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week! 

Enjoy some Love Light And Inbetween With Kel.

Episode 30 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Revue Starlight is a story of podcast hosts guided by the sureness of their opinions. They agree and disagree. They make good points even as they miss the overall picture. However, eventually the episode ends, never to be revisited again. It is a somber experience... but the story of those nine girls hopelessly captivates Ben and Duncan. Knowing all that they face, the tragedy that shall someday come, will you still choose to join them on stage? I understand. The post Inbetween 30 - Best Girlism (Revue Starlight the Movie) first appeared on Key Frames.

This week on The Children's Hour we learn about the most inexpensive energy source in the world: solar power. In a show recorded live at the New Mexico Solar Energy Association's Solar Fiesta, the kids talk with solar educator and engineer, Marlene Brown. Featuring live music by Eileen & the Inbetweens.

Episode 29 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. We just did a tween on Mobile Suit Gundam, one of the defining franchises of anime, so why not another? Jeff and Duncan drink deeply of the original Ghost in the Shell movie, which they praise for asking questions more than giving answers, and they ponder how it pointed the way forward (and, in a handful of cases, backward) for cyberpunk as a genre, anime as a medium, and cyborgs as a lens through which to view alienation from one's own body and society. It's not quite what it could be, since Ben couldn't be there, but maybe he'll be back in the next episode to give everyone what for. The post Inbetween 29 - An "Every Other Year" Thing (Ghost in the Shell (1995)) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 28 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The creeping obsession with Mobile Suit Gundam shared by Ben, Duncan, and Jeff gains another toehold in the podcast with this tween on the celebrated 1989 OVA written by none other than Hiroyuki Yamaga of Studio GAINAX fame. Hear our hosts talk about being anti-war in an anime designed first and foremost to sell toys, about the beauty and demise of hand-painted cel animation, and their evolving relationship with this, the nonpareil of mecha anime! And don't worry, complaints about how annoying Al is and how dumb Lt. Col. Killing's name is are kept to a minimum. The post Inbetween 28 - Space Is Not the Place (Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 27 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. It's time for a rematch on whether Violet Evergarden is profoundly moving or manipulatively sappy! Duncan, Andy, and Jeff square up over the sequel movie that was released two years ago in Japan and last year worldwide, but don't worry, it's not Violet-loving Andy vs. the world this time. Jeff and even Duncan join him at times in praising the movie, in between analyzing it as a meditation on discomfort with modernity and the instantaneous communication that underpins it. Should you watch Violet Evergarden: The Movie, even if you haven't seen the show first? Well... maybe you should listen and find out! The post Inbetween 27 - The Letters You Don't Write (Violet Evergarden: The Movie) first appeared on Key Frames.

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Catherine Talbot, Lecturer in Pyschology at Bournemouth University about dealing with failure and rejections.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,530 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:36,190 Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In-betweens. 4 00:00:36,190 --> 00:00:44,590 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and this episode, I think, is possibly one of our most important episodes so far. 5 00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:50,380 So in this episode, I'm going to be talking to one of our wonderful doctoral graduates from the University of Exeter, 6 00:00:50,380 --> 00:00:56,650 Dr. Catherine Talbot, who is now a lecturer in psychology at the University of Bournemouth. 7 00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:06,580 All about failure and rejection, and about how it's perhaps unseen and under-discussed area of academic life. 8 00:01:06,580 --> 00:01:13,420 And one we hope by the end of this conversation, we can normalise a little bit for you. 9 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:23,890 Yes. So my name is Catherine Talbot, and I actually did my Ph.D. at the University of Exeter and finished a few years ago in medical studies, 10 00:01:23,890 --> 00:01:28,750 and now I'm a lecturer in psychology at Bournemouth University. 11 00:01:28,750 --> 00:01:37,780 Most of my research is in the area of cyber psychology, so I specifically focus on social media and how people with dementia use it, 12 00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:42,730 the barriers they face, the challenges and also the benefits. So. 13 00:01:42,730 --> 00:01:51,730 What we're going to talk about is failure and rejection, and we're going to sort of undermine those terms as we talk. 14 00:01:51,730 --> 00:01:58,420 But, you know, acknowledging I think that for a lot of people that by the time they get to a research degree, 15 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:01,390 they tend to have been high flyers throughout their academic education, 16 00:02:01,390 --> 00:02:07,060 and they tend to have been people that have done really well and been really successful and not 17 00:02:07,060 --> 00:02:16,210 necessarily having had experience of quote unquote failing or being rejected for something. 18 00:02:16,210 --> 00:02:21,730 And then when that does start to happen through publications, through funding, 19 00:02:21,730 --> 00:02:26,770 through conferences, various different things, it can be a really difficult thing. 20 00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:35,530 But at the same time, it's. It is a kind of cornerstone of the academic experience. 21 00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:45,160 So I wondered if you could say something about your kind of first your first experiences of of sort of failure or rejection as an academic, 22 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:55,660 whether as a Ph.D. student or as a lecturer. And really what that what it was and what that felt like to you, if that's OK. 23 00:02:55,660 --> 00:03:03,970 Yeah, of course. I guess by now, I feel a bit like an expert in failure and rejection, to be honest. 24 00:03:03,970 --> 00:03:07,900 So I just really identify with what you were saying. 25 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:13,180 So when I first came to my research programme was a Ph.D. student. 26 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:17,590 You know, I'd done really well at university. I had a placement. 27 00:03:17,590 --> 00:03:21,310 Year, I was looking to publish a paper. All very exciting stuff. 28 00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:25,630 So I didn't really have that experience of rejection. 29 00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:33,100 And then it came to my p h d and submitted the paper to a journal for the first time. 30 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:42,250 And yeah, just having the reviewers comments back and then really just really tearing that paper apart. 31 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:46,390 It's something that I just put my heart and my soul into. 32 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:55,360 And I remember receiving those comments and just crying, just go and having a little cry and thinking, I'm the worst researcher ever. 33 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,470 I can't do this. I'm going to fail my PhD 34 00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:05,320 Everyone, you know, and just completely catastrophize and really from there. 35 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,790 So, yeah, I just I've got much better at dealing with that now. 36 00:04:09,790 --> 00:04:16,720 Yeah, I you're saying now I'm remembering this always comes back to my memory randomly the first time. 37 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:29,260 And so when I started my research degree, I submitted part of Masters for publication at my sort of supervisor's suggestion and it got rejected. 38 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:34,780 And I read about two sentences of that feedback. 39 00:04:34,780 --> 00:04:41,800 And it was it felt so brutal. I didn't want to read anymore, so I filed it in my email. 40 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:48,280 And by the time I got up, the courage to try and read it it had been archived and I couldn't get it back. 41 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,560 So I never actually read the feedback. 42 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:57,100 I just literally like, I couldn't handle it, so I dug my head in the sand just as like, No, I'm not going to deal with this I'm not 43 00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:05,290 gonna think about it, which it's very difficult, but it is so, so difficult, especially how those emails start as well. 44 00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:10,180 You just think, Oh, I'm rubbish, I'm the worst. Yes. And it very much. 45 00:05:10,180 --> 00:05:12,100 And that's the thing. I think it's it's twofold. 46 00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:20,560 It very much feels like a personal failure and you and catastrophizing what you say, you think, Oh, I'm not going to I can't do this. 47 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,240 I can't do it because, you know, because of this one thing where they've said, No, not this time. 48 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:37,540 Essentially, you know, you feel like everything is over and you can't do any of it, which of course, is not true, but it feels so real at the time. 49 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:42,240 It feels so overwhelming. Yeah, definitely. 50 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:48,060 And also, you do I've noticed I do tend to focus on the negatives as well that are in there. 51 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:57,630 So even if I receive well as an example, actually, I wrote a paper recently which got accepted for publication, 52 00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:04,260 but I didn't actually realise it had been accepted because I picked up on all of the negative comments within the review. 53 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:07,620 I didn't read that one sentence that was like, If you make these changes, 54 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:18,680 I'm happy to accept that it just it says something really significant about our mindset and and the way that we're that, 55 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,670 the way that we're both used to and respond to critique. 56 00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:29,840 We're all it's that kind of perfectionism and imposter syndrome. I think like we're always assuming that we're going to get found out. 57 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:37,150 And so we're always trying to like looking for the negatives or looking for the flaws and not necessarily looking for the sentence that says. 58 00:06:37,150 --> 00:06:43,010 We want to accept this for publication. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 59 00:06:43,010 --> 00:06:52,150 Always looking for that critique and that criticism. And I think it is important to go back to the idea of. 60 00:06:52,150 --> 00:06:57,580 Of it feeling like a a personal failure, because one of the things I always try and say to people is, 61 00:06:57,580 --> 00:07:04,330 you know, you have to try and and I'm not saying I can't do this or I'm good at it, by the way, 62 00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:11,440 but you have to try and take a step back and realise that even though you put your heart and 63 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:18,250 soul and all of this work into your publications or applications or anything that you're doing, 64 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:21,250 that is not you, and that is not the sum of you. 65 00:07:21,250 --> 00:07:28,600 And so when that is rejected, whatever reason, that isn't a rejection of you, it's a rejection of whatever is on that piece of paper. 66 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:39,280 The tiniest snapshot. Yeah, I agree. And it can just feel so personal that this is an issue with you as a person, as you as a student as well, 67 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,800 when actually, you know, they're just critically appraising the work, which is what they're meant to do. 68 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,720 And there will be some good bits in that. And usually reviews do add some nice little positive bits as well, 69 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:58,390 or ultimately just seeing This as right, I can take this information and I can go and improve my work. 70 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:07,690 And because people, they have taken the time to, to look at your work, to engage with that and to provide comprehensive feedback. 71 00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:14,910 So they're viewing it more in that way as well. But I think what you said there, Kelly, and was really interesting actually, 72 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:20,230 because I think maybe this relates to how we see ourselves as Ph.D. students as well, 73 00:08:20,230 --> 00:08:28,390 because I know at that point in my life that was such a big part of who I was as a person was the name of a Ph.D. student. 74 00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:36,160 And that's kind of how I evaluated myself. So when having that negative feedback or that experience of rejection, 75 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,890 it can be quite hard not to take it personally because that's such a big part of who you are. 76 00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:49,990 So like I was saying at the start, I think if you're if you've been, like, really academically successful. 77 00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:58,720 And most people, you know, that come of certainly through a traditional route to a research degree or a PhD have been 78 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:06,100 you're not you're not used to it, you're not used to not doing well at things and it's a privileged position to be in. 79 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:18,650 But it's still, you know, it's a learning process of how to deal with critique and how to deal with rejection and how to turn that into. 80 00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:21,740 Into the positive that you're talking about, actually turn that into a. 81 00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:31,050 How do I use this to improve my work to make it better rather than just going kind of falling into an existential hole of. 82 00:09:31,050 --> 00:09:35,580 Why am I doing this, why aren't you know? I'm not I'm not good enough to do this. 83 00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:45,850 I'm. So. I wonder if you could say a little bit about how, you know, a few years on. 84 00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:51,000 How you deal with any kind of failure or rejection? 85 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:58,680 In your professional life now, like, you know, compared to that first paper when you started the Ph.D. 86 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:06,180 If you have something now, what do you do? How do you try and and and respond to it in perhaps a more positive way? 87 00:10:06,180 --> 00:10:10,980 And how and how do you cope with the emotions that you feel associated with it? 88 00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:23,730 Yeah. So it is difficult. And I will say that I think I've got better with time and just kind of as you get more experience of it and this rejection, 89 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:31,110 unfortunately being quite a normal part of academia, you do. You do you kind of get a little bit used to it, I guess. 90 00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:37,230 But it's still hard when you spend lots of time on something and you've got that rejection. 91 00:10:37,230 --> 00:10:43,680 And you know, initially what I found is I do feel upset or I feel angry. 92 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,750 So what I do is I read through the rejection letter, so if it's a paper, 93 00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:54,990 I'll look through the reviews and then I'll just allow myself to feel the emotions that I'm feeling right. 94 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:59,970 We shouldn't be suppressing those emotions just accept how I'm feeling. 95 00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:03,870 And then I just move those reviews to a different folder in my inbox. 96 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:13,260 And I think, right, I'll return to those in a couple of days. And what I found actually is that when I return to that, those reviews in a few days, 97 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:21,210 they seem they make a lot more sense and they, you know, they seem a bit kinder than when I initially read them. 98 00:11:21,210 --> 00:11:25,930 So I find that is one helpful thing to do. 99 00:11:25,930 --> 00:11:35,800 Yeah, I think that's really crucial and really important is letting yourself feel that and letting yourself have an emotional response to it, 100 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,890 particularly as you put so much into, you know, 101 00:11:38,890 --> 00:11:46,270 whether you're writing an article or you're putting together a funding application, you know, these are colossal pieces of work. 102 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:59,780 And you dedicate a huge amount of time amd yourself to and to then get that email, as it tends to be now that says no is it's really hard. 103 00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:07,600 And as you as you rightfully said, unfortunately, it is a sort of no, it's a normal thing in academic life. 104 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:20,260 It's the mainstay, you know? The nature of what we do is you try things, whether that's, you know. 105 00:12:20,260 --> 00:12:25,540 Particular research or, you know, trying to publish something or trying to get some funding. 106 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:31,670 You know, you try things, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and. 107 00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:41,250 Given how competitive it is, unfortunately, you tend to lose more than you win, and that's normal. 108 00:12:41,250 --> 00:12:51,930 Yeah, I was going to just add to that, actually, that I've have, and this is the same for professors and, you know, world leaders in the field. 109 00:12:51,930 --> 00:13:01,820 They have admitted they have had far more grants rejected than they've had accepted, and that's certainly the case for me. 110 00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:08,250 And you know, it's just the nature of it, and it's about almost being able to just dust yourself off and say, 111 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:14,830 Right, what can I do with this information to improve and to succeed in the future? 112 00:13:14,830 --> 00:13:24,490 Absolutely, because there will be something in there, some nugget of wisdom that you can take forward with you to the next one. 113 00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:29,720 And you know, it is a little bit of a revolving door of. 114 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:37,980 Right. Not that journal. Let's look at the feedback. Let's look what they said unless, you know, let's try again somewhere else. 115 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:42,120 And it is a bit like that, and sometimes it's just it's not it's not the right place, 116 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,830 it's not the right time, you know, if the research isn't quite developed and you know, 117 00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:51,600 the ideas aren't quite developed enough, it's all sorts, all sorts of reasons, 118 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:58,680 none of which are anything to do with you or your ability as a researcher. 119 00:13:58,680 --> 00:13:59,970 Yeah, I was just going to add as well. 120 00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:06,870 There is it's also recognised in that there is that element of luck there as well, and that's something I've certainly found. 121 00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:11,520 So as a qualitative researcher submitted to journals, 122 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:21,300 it's the most frustrating thing where you get someone who uses quantitative methods reviewing your stuff and just doesn't understand it and therefore, 123 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:28,890 you know, suggests that it's rejected and then it gets rejected. So maybe also think about is, is this fair? 124 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:33,220 Is it is it fair or is it that I need to find somewhere else to send this somewhere? 125 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:37,120 That's and what I'm doing a little bit more. 126 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:45,220 And like you say, you know. There's an element of luck in this and timing. 127 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:49,700 There's an element of I mean, it's hugely competitive, 128 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:57,730 I remember when I was an undergrad applying for funding for my masters and I applied to the Arts Humanities Research Council, 129 00:14:57,730 --> 00:15:05,590 the AHRC for funding and my application got rated excellent priority for an award. 130 00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:11,570 And I did not get any money because the. 131 00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:20,850 There were so many applicants. I was just going to say it is just so competitive with all of these grants fellowships, 132 00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:28,380 and there's lots of really excellent researchers all applying for the same funding with excellent proposals. 133 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:34,650 And just the chance of success is so, so low. Yeah, and that's. 134 00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:42,690 And I say that not to discourage people, but just just to recognise the reality of it, and I say the same with academic jobs as well. 135 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:48,870 You know, I see a lot of of PGRs coming through and applying for postdocs or for lectureship. 136 00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:53,760 And not getting interviews or getting interviews and not getting the roles and saying, 137 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,500 Oh, you know, they gave it to someone and they've got more publications. 138 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:03,360 than me they've done this many more conference presentations or they had funding for that, 139 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,210 you know, and kind of starting to do this, do this exercise of right. 140 00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:14,730 These are the things I've done and these are the things that they've done. And these are all the ways they've done things. 141 00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:17,430 They've done more things than I have done better things than I have. 142 00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:23,040 And the thing that always strikes me when people do that is that they write this list of all the things somebody 143 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:29,760 else has done that they haven't and they don't think about the things that they've done that somebody else hasn't. 144 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,770 And the experience that they have that somebody else doesn't. 145 00:16:31,770 --> 00:16:40,630 They totally devalue what they have and go, well, that person's better because they've done X, Y and Z, and I haven't done that. 146 00:16:40,630 --> 00:16:49,090 That's such a good point. I'm definitely guilty of that. It's and it's hard not to do it. 147 00:16:49,090 --> 00:16:54,340 But, you know, there's all sorts of reasons why that person might be the person that gets a job over you 148 00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:57,620 They may have all of these things because they're not because they're further along. 149 00:16:57,620 --> 00:17:02,050 You know, they may be three years out of their research degree and you're only one. 150 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:07,630 So they've they had more experience. They've had more time. You know, that's not a reflection on you. 151 00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:12,950 That's just the reality of having had more time to develop these things. 152 00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:19,400 But exactly, and we can't just judge people just based on these singular criteria, 153 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:27,110 when we're all very different, I guess different disciplines, we have different approaches to doing research. 154 00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:31,250 You just can't really compare yourself. I don't think either. No. 155 00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:39,010 And it's it's, you know, it's like we said about the kind of, you know, an article or an application being a snapshot, you know, a job application. 156 00:17:39,010 --> 00:17:48,090 Again, it's just a snapshot. What? What's on? A piece of paper or an online form is not the sum of everything that you are. 157 00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:56,990 And somebody has got to make a judgement based on what is what they have in front of them, which is. 158 00:17:56,990 --> 00:18:07,220 So far from the sum of its parts, you know, it's so far from representative of all that that person is and all that they do. 159 00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:16,440 And so they're not, you know, they're not judging. That person is better than Person B, they're 160 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,250 Looking at what they've got on a piece of paper to make a decision, 161 00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:25,860 and it's not a judgement on an individual, and it doesn't mean that that person's better than you. 162 00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:31,950 It just means that you say they fit a set of criteria and it was it was on the form that they needed. 163 00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:40,780 You know, it's. It's it's a strange way to make decisions, but it is nonetheless the way that we do it. 164 00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:49,780 Yeah, exactly. I mean, just on that point about jobs, I guess before my first postdoc, I applied well. 165 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:54,490 I had interviews for three positions before actually getting that one. 166 00:18:54,490 --> 00:18:59,830 So getting rejected from these positions is completely normal. 167 00:18:59,830 --> 00:19:08,380 And actually, I think some of it as well is learning what to expect in an interview and actually learning how to write those job applications, 168 00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:13,720 which I've certainly got better at now and how to emphasise your skills and how to 169 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,580 show that you do fit this criteria so that when a person goes through those forms, 170 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:21,190 they can just say yes, they meet this criteria. 171 00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:28,650 Yes, they've published paper and just really trying to sell yourself, I guess, in the best possible way. 172 00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:34,630 And try and capture what you know that. 173 00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:41,830 That thing that makes you unique. You know, the thing that you know so and so might have X number more publications than you. 174 00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:46,990 But what do you have that they don't? Do you have more teaching experience that they than they do? 175 00:19:46,990 --> 00:19:50,830 Because actually, if you're applying for an academic role that might, 176 00:19:50,830 --> 00:19:58,050 depending on what the need is in the department at that time, that might be more valuable to them. 177 00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:06,910 Yeah, exactly. Such a good point. And also, when applying for the postdoc, your topic area might be a better fit than someone else. 178 00:20:06,910 --> 00:20:07,980 And you know, 179 00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:17,880 it's and also in terms of what other skills do you have in terms of networking and what kind of what wider network do you bring to the role? 180 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,470 You might have some fantastic contacts and collaborations. 181 00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:29,740 Do you have experience with science communication and think about those other skills as well that aren't just publications, 182 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:37,710 because especially if you're applying for a postdoc, you'll be publishing while doing the postdoc and you will get guidance and advice on that. 183 00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:45,040 Absolutely, and you know, it's important to remember that with all of these activities, none of it is a finished product. 184 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:55,460 You know, it's not a finished researcher, you know, putting a box tied up with a bow, perfect number of publications perfect number of 185 00:20:55,460 --> 00:21:02,740 postdocs held. It's it's all a process, and you will develop within whatever role. 186 00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:06,460 You end up getting on you, 187 00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:09,700 and that will give you the opportunity to develop these things and to develop 188 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:16,220 your publications and build from the bits of and all of these sorts of things. 189 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:23,340 I wondered if you could say something about what I guess what you've learnt. 190 00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:27,810 From the process of failure, so, you know, we've said it's a common part of the academic experience. 191 00:21:27,810 --> 00:21:33,460 You get rejected and you get rejected more times than you'll get accepted. 192 00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:39,770 But so what have you learnt along the way? 193 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:50,860 So while we've already touched on not taking it too personally, I've I've learnt that I've also learnt about it being a common experience. 194 00:21:50,860 --> 00:22:01,310 So for example, I've recently started collaborating with this amazing big deal researcher and they were sharing their experiences 195 00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:07,970 of failure actually and talking about all of these grants they've submitted and none of them getting funded. 196 00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:10,010 And I thought, Wow, OK, 197 00:22:10,010 --> 00:22:18,410 so it actually is a common experience that people who are these superstars are also experiencing it too I think that that's really important. 198 00:22:18,410 --> 00:22:27,770 And so there being an openness and talking about failure is really important because the more we talk about it, 199 00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:32,890 the more we normalise it and the more we create an environment that says, actually, 200 00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:41,100 you know, this is normal, this is something we're going to go through and. 201 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:51,960 There are ways there are ways to cope with it. And you know that you have a community around you who've been through exactly the same things. 202 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,360 Yeah, exactly, and I guess that's something that I try to talk about on academic Twitter. 203 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,550 quite a bit is talking about experiences of rejection and being quite open about that. 204 00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:09,490 I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes academic Twitter can make you feel quite rubbish because you see all of these people doing amazing things. 205 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:17,160 And I sometimes think, Oh, I'm not doing that. But there are a lot of people speaking openly about rejection and failure on that, 206 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,990 and it's such a good community, particularly for PhD students, I think. 207 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:25,510 So definitely recommend making use of that. Yeah. 208 00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:36,600 And like let you say, I mean, because Twitter has historically been a kind of a publicity tool, let's say, for for academics. 209 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,170 It can make you feel inferior. 210 00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:48,640 But but increasingly, there's more and more discussion of the realities, I guess, of being an academic and things like failure. 211 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,310 And there's been an increase we've seen in people publishing failure CVs 212 00:23:53,310 --> 00:24:00,660 So the kind of opposite of a CV, all of the things that you failed at all of the things that you've been rejected from. 213 00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:09,090 To kind of bring to the surface, actually the thing the thing that you would submit to, you know, for a job application is all the positive things. 214 00:24:09,090 --> 00:24:12,720 But like you say, there's all of the kind of. 215 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:20,160 The rejections and the failures behind that which outnumber, you know, the things that you would put on a CV for an employer. 216 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:32,280 And I think that that's it's just really healthy to be for people to be sharing that openly and making it clear. 217 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,110 This is normal, I'm not just saying it's normal, 218 00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:44,410 but like you were saying with working with a more senior researcher really showing and demonstrating in reality that his perfectly normal. 219 00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:52,360 Yeah, exactly, and I think what I've learnt the most is you've got to keep them up your motivation so that it can be so hard. 220 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:57,760 But if you've got a grant application that hasn't been funded, yeah, that's rubbish. 221 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,110 But think right? Where can I send this now? What is that? 222 00:25:02,110 --> 00:25:08,020 That's still useful. That will help me to grow as a researcher and really improve my skills. 223 00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:17,060 How can we still do this despite this rejection, are there other avenues and really thinking about those sort of things? 224 00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:22,790 You know, if you if you submit an article to a journal, 225 00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:30,090 the worst thing that happens is that you're going to be outright rejected, but you will get feedback. 226 00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:40,230 On how to improve. So there's always that kind of sense of of being able to move, move it forward. 227 00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:46,590 Yeah, and I didn't realise it as well, that people say, who do these reviews generally, 228 00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:53,940 I'm not going to say often, but generally people do want to be constructive and they do want to help. 229 00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:59,190 And there is this push as well now to be a lot kinder in reviews as well. 230 00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:05,230 So I know a lot of editors are giving that as outright guidance, but realising that these people, 231 00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:10,740 they have spent their time on it and that very often experts in that area. 232 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,950 So it is a way for you to improve and to develop. 233 00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:20,970 And you know, if we're thinking about a publication, then you can actually end up with a much better publication as a result of that. 234 00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:27,750 So I know some of my own work from when I've submitted it to the first journal compared to, say, the third one. 235 00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:34,530 The paper changes so much and it's so much better, and I'm much happier with it with that final submission. 236 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:41,940 So and something else I was thinking, which I find really helpful if I'm really annoyed about some reviewers comments. 237 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:46,260 I will just meet up with my friends, say, go to the pub, go to the cafe, 238 00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:53,190 have a video call during COVID, and I will just rant about it for a good half hour an hour. 239 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:59,810 Get it all out of my system and then I'll say, Oh, OK, I feel a lot better now and ready to talk about. 240 00:26:59,810 --> 00:27:05,890 Exactly how we'd process anything else. And I think that's what we've got to, you know, 241 00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:13,340 got to remember that it's how you'd process any other kind of emotion or not back if you had an argument with somebody, 242 00:27:13,340 --> 00:27:16,610 when someone's done something to annoy you. That's exactly what you would do. 243 00:27:16,610 --> 00:27:24,870 You would go and sit in a pub with your friends and go, Oh my, oh my God, you'll never believe what just happened. 244 00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:32,940 And that is cathartic. Exactly, and it's so simple, and I really value that pub time. 245 00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:42,180 Exactly. And that's why our and that's why our communities of practise and and kind of communities 246 00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:49,470 appears so important because actually they're the ones that kind of nurture and sustain us, 247 00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:54,060 share their experiences with us. You know, and say, you know, it's share. 248 00:27:54,060 --> 00:28:00,030 I've been through this too and kind of commiserate you when the failures and the rejections come in, 249 00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:06,510 but also celebrate with you when the when the successes happen. 250 00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:09,680 And I find that other people are very good at. 251 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:18,740 When you kind of wallowing in self-pity, which I consider to be very myself, to be very, very good at is other people are very good at going. 252 00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:24,290 But what about that thing that you did? That's really good. What about that thing you did? 253 00:28:24,290 --> 00:28:31,790 That's really good. And getting yourself a group of colleagues and a group of people that will do that for you is, 254 00:28:31,790 --> 00:28:37,360 I think, so important as part of the academic experience. 255 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:40,660 Yes, so basically find your cheerleaders, find them. 256 00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:46,480 They're out there and they'll be experiencing exactly the same stuff that you are ever. 257 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:52,120 Pretty much everyone is experiencing those feelings, the failure ot rejection. 258 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,490 So you just need to find your cheerleaders and you can be theres as well. 259 00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:01,000 Thank you so much to Catherine for taking this time to speak to me, 260 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:08,230 but also for her candour and honesty about what are actually quite difficult experiences to talk about, 261 00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:13,510 but also admit to because it's not in academic culture to talk about these things. 262 00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:20,890 So I really value her honesty, both in this discussion, but also on Twitter. 263 00:29:20,890 --> 00:29:25,630 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. 264 00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:39,770 And join me. Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between. 265 00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:52,731 To.  

In this episode, Patience Tamarra shares her reflection and growth of 2021 in a a very open and intimate conversation. Enjoy! Watch the YouTube video mentioned in this episode here. Order your copy of Patience's debut book "dear self," here! Stay connected! @healingtogetherpodcast @patiencetamarra For support, love + high vibe resources for your healing journey, join my community!

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Nicole Morrissey and Dr. Victoria Omotoso about their experiences of doing ajorr corrections after their viva.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,790 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:25,790 --> 00:00:36,790 Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R D the In-betweens. 4 00:00:36,790 --> 00:00:43,480 We're back again talking about the viva and specifically about corrections and outcomes of post viva. 5 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:49,310 This episode is all about major corrections. Now there's a lot of anxiety around major corrections. 6 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:54,220 The what that means in reality, that it's something terribly bad as an outcome. 7 00:00:54,220 --> 00:01:01,540 And hopefully the experiences of two of our graduates, Dr. Nicole Morrissey and Dr. Victoria Omotoso, 8 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:11,260 will allay some of these fears and actually help you understand what major corrections are in reality and that it's really not so bad. 9 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:21,250 OK, so I'm Nicole Morrissey. I did my Ph.D. in medical sciences or more specifically, neuroscience, 10 00:01:21,250 --> 00:01:30,080 and now I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the Medical Research Council in Harwell. 11 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:40,690 Fantastic, so the big question is when you after you did your viva, what kind of car did you get? 12 00:01:40,690 --> 00:01:51,080 And so while I was in my viva because I had what's known as an independent learning plan, 13 00:01:51,080 --> 00:02:00,710 they kind of say I was just it was described to me that my corrections were kind of like minor, but with extra time or minor/major. 14 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:04,400 Well, officially on paper, I got given major corrections. 15 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,920 So that meant that I had what like six months to do the corrections rather than three months. 16 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:18,860 Yeah, exactly right. And I think what you've raised there is a really, really important point and important way in which minor major corrections are used, 17 00:02:18,860 --> 00:02:23,900 which is that it's about time that it will take you to do the corrections. 18 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:28,610 And it's all sorts of reasons why people have what might be classified as minor corrections, 19 00:02:28,610 --> 00:02:32,030 but they get major corrections to give them the time to do them. 20 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:38,480 You know, lots of people who are already working and therefore can't work on the corrections full time or that, 21 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,060 you know, there's all, you know, there's all sorts of reasons. 22 00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:47,120 And of course, having an individual learning plan, that means you're not able to do it in that period of time. 23 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,400 And it's really about the time it will take you to do the corrections rather than the corrections themselves. 24 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:59,930 How did they talk to you in the viva and afterwards about what specifically they want to do to do so through the viva 25 00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:03,050 We kind of just started. So mine was during the lockdown, 26 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:11,810 so it was virtually so we were kind of all of us looking at our screens I had two screens set up one with the thesis and one with the examiners, 27 00:03:11,810 --> 00:03:17,480 and we were just going through the thesis just like a chapter by chapter going through it, 28 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:25,520 just discussing what I did and what they kind of they thought maybe needed to be corrected. 29 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:36,410 So I made notes as I was going through it, but also then afterwards it took it was about. 30 00:03:36,410 --> 00:03:41,890 First, probably three or four weeks after the viva I received the official documentation, 31 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:48,730 which is when the examiners had written down what the corrections are, 32 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:59,740 how specific were they about in that kind of list that they sent you about what you needed to do to get the OhD? 33 00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:06,640 I mean, they wrote down what the page number of what their point that they were like making and 34 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,760 whereabouts on the page like first paragraph second paragraph halfway through the second paragraph. 35 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:19,170 So that made it quite easy to sort of go through one by one and correct it. 36 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:24,300 But it was at least clear to you what the expectation of the examiners was. 37 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:33,090 Yes. And I think that's where a lot of the anxiety for people comes is they think it's not going to be clear what they need to do and it might, 38 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:39,270 you know, be open to huge amounts of interpretation, whereas actually. 39 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:45,570 Examiners tend to be pretty, pretty clear and pretty specific about what what is needed. 40 00:04:45,570 --> 00:04:50,940 Yeah. Like, I felt like it was kind of like a to do list, that I went through and sort of tickd things off 41 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:58,060 Yeah, I like that kind of concept of it. So when you see, you know, you tackled your corrections, you talk to your supervisor. 42 00:04:58,060 --> 00:05:03,480 You ticked off the to do list. And you when you finished that, what happened? 43 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,670 What did how did you resubmit the thesis? 44 00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:18,150 So I had to email the postgraduate admissions office and tell them I was ready to resubmit. 45 00:05:18,150 --> 00:05:21,090 And similarly to how I submitted in the first place, 46 00:05:21,090 --> 00:05:33,060 they gave me a link to the online folder where I uploaded it in both Microsoft Word and PDF format because I thought both might be helpful. 47 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:36,990 And what happened then? How long of a wait did you have before you 48 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:44,520 Actually, you heard that the corrections have been accepted? Um, well, I had quite a long wait. 49 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,820 I ended up having to like ask about what was happening. 50 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:54,810 I think because it was a mix of the pandemic and I submitted my corrections probably at the end of May. 51 00:05:54,810 --> 00:06:03,840 So then it was also the summer and people were away. So I didn't find out about my corrections until beginning of August. 52 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:11,950 Wow. Wow. So it was quite a few months, and then I had a second set of corrections to do. 53 00:06:11,950 --> 00:06:15,850 OK, so this is so this is something that people often ask about is, if you know, 54 00:06:15,850 --> 00:06:19,780 submit if you submit the first set of corrections, what if they come back with extra things? 55 00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:22,400 So can you talk a little bit about? 56 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:29,690 About that, about how how you got that extra set of corrections, what kind of things they were, how you approached it? 57 00:06:29,690 --> 00:06:35,600 Yeah. So it was, I don't know, frustrating, is the right word or disappointing. 58 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:43,730 But when I went through like the the examiner's report of the second set of corrections, 59 00:06:43,730 --> 00:06:47,630 it became clear to me that they had read the entire thing pretty much. 60 00:06:47,630 --> 00:06:53,950 Or most of it again. Wow. And most of the corrections were just spelling errors and then a few suggestions 61 00:06:53,950 --> 00:07:04,400 and change like statistical tests or corrections to my statistical analysis. 62 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,620 A couple of things that I didn't really make clear during my first corrections 63 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:18,850 So. I kind of went through it and was able to appreciate like the like the effort and help, 64 00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:24,810 that the examiners provided to make it the best, that my thesis, the best it could be. 65 00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:36,670 And. I think also having quite a bit of a break between submitting my second corrections no submitting my first corrections and receiving the second lot, 66 00:07:36,670 --> 00:07:42,190 I was able to look through my thesis and with a clearer mind. 67 00:07:42,190 --> 00:07:52,840 It actually kind of it made it a lot easier to kind of get into a good, sort of like the best version of it can be. 68 00:07:52,840 --> 00:08:02,620 And so although it was maybe disappointing, I it kind of it was again another good learning experience. 69 00:08:02,620 --> 00:08:08,200 It made it a lot better than it was from the first set of corrections. 70 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,720 Absolutely. And so how did how did that happen? 71 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:18,550 Did they email you and say, Look, we've got a few more, few more corrections we want you to do before we can pass it? 72 00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:24,340 And then how long did you did you have to do the second set? 73 00:08:24,340 --> 00:08:28,600 Yes. So I got another email. Similarly, like before saying that. 74 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,290 So yeah, it was like, before that I got an email. 75 00:08:33,290 --> 00:08:39,680 The exact wording. It said something like to like. 76 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:46,790 Further corrections or something. And again, it was like a to do list again, but a lot smaller. 77 00:08:46,790 --> 00:08:53,720 Yeah. And I was given four weeks to finish complete them in. 78 00:08:53,720 --> 00:09:01,650 And you said they were kind of mostly. Typing spelling like really tiny bits of work. 79 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:14,290 Yeah, which is kind of I remember seeing on Twitter being like a meme or not a meme, but like it's a picture with words saying, you know? 80 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:17,980 That not to worry about or make going through your thesis. 81 00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:22,120 Make sure the spelling perfect cause the examiners aren't actually going to read it. 82 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:27,250 I was like, well, it was actually it was important. 83 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:35,620 Yeah. And then my examiners definitely like, Read it. So yeah, I was like, That's funny, but it's also not true. 84 00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:38,890 I think there's something really lovely that you said in there about the, you know, 85 00:09:38,890 --> 00:09:46,150 the the way in which the examiners approached the thesis and the level of detail about second time around that they read it. 86 00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:56,760 But they that what you see, the way that you talked about it seemed to be with a kind of that there was real, there was real care from the examiners. 87 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,340 You know, your thesis. I mean, I I really enjoyed the viva 88 00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:07,900 I mean, it was, you know, it was a good chat about my work. 89 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:16,840 And I mean, my examiners kind of like, I think the way you look at it, it's all a learning process. 90 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,810 So. You know, it's. 91 00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:31,890 I think it's to be appreciated the kind of the time and effort that they put in because it's it's towards your own development. 92 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:41,910 Absolutely. And. I think, you know, goes back to the kind of thing that we always tell people, which is that, you know, your examiners wants you to pass. 93 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:49,800 They want you to pass and pass and produce the best thesis that you have that you can produce at that point in time. 94 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:56,920 And you know, that's everybody's goal, not just yours, their job isn't to catch you out in any way 95 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:05,110 Exactly. And one thing that I often get asked by people about major corrections is if having had 96 00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:11,380 major corrections somehow negatively affects your opportunities that come after the PhD 97 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:16,720 And I have a very specific answer to this and a very brief answer, 98 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,910 but I wondered if if you as somebody that you know, has has been through, it could talk. 99 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:30,690 Or just comment on if there's any kind of impact. Long term from having had major corrections. 100 00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:38,640 I mean, I don't think so, so I mean, I got my post-doc position like before I'd actually submitted my thesis, 101 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,340 so it didn't impact that and I can't see it. 102 00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:49,650 I'm just like applying for new positions now, and I can't see it impacting me here because it's not something that you generally list. 103 00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:51,720 On your CV or 104 00:11:51,720 --> 00:12:01,320 And if someone asks, you kind of got a question why they're asking you, because it's not like with other examples university or school exams. 105 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,400 It's not really a very standardised because it really just depends on the examiners 106 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:14,640 that you have and how like I guess what they what they think should be corrected. 107 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:21,610 So it is very subjective and very much depends on the viva and on the examiners. 108 00:12:21,610 --> 00:12:24,760 Yeah, and that's exactly what I tell people. 109 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:33,040 Everything that you said for it, when it actually comes to getting out in the world, nobody really asks or. 110 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:39,430 Exactly. And in that case, because you've got a you've got a Ph.D. or whatever research degree you've been doing, 111 00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:45,350 you know, you you've it's it's not like a first or a 2:1, it's pass or fail. 112 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:50,550 It's it's that simple. And so once you're through that system, it doesn't matter. 113 00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:55,020 If you've got major corrections and I think it's important to take some of the stigma away 114 00:12:55,020 --> 00:13:00,670 from corrections being a negative thing because corrections are actually quite normal thing. 115 00:13:00,670 --> 00:13:06,070 Hi, my name is Victoria Omotoso I did my Ph.D. in theology, 116 00:13:06,070 --> 00:13:12,190 and my research was looking specifically at audience reception of Jesus in film. 117 00:13:12,190 --> 00:13:19,360 So looking at audiences in South Africa and in the UK and how they respond to Jesus in films. 118 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:29,430 And currently I am working as a lecturer, teaching theology and Media, IMedia Studies. 119 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:38,450 Fabulous, thank you. So can you tell us a little bit about a little bit about your viva experience, but particularly and. 120 00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:41,730 What you what you had in terms of corrections after the viva 121 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:50,210 and whether they were classified as major or minor and how the examiners talked to you about those corrections and in the viva? 122 00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:54,920 Yeah. So my viva experience happened in 2020. 123 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,370 So obviously it was during the time of heightened kind of COVID restrictions. 124 00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:02,300 And so it was an online viva, 125 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:12,200 which actually which did not actually detract anything away from the overall experience of a lovely engagement, even online. 126 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,890 And my examiners were lovely and gracious, and I had, you know, 127 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:23,840 good support in terms of kind of prepping of what that might look like, say the Viva itself went well. 128 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:35,370 And then when I think the next phase when I returned back into the virtual room, I was given. 129 00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:42,270 Major corrections and major corrections, it was classified as because of the time they had given me, 130 00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:49,290 I was given six months in terms of the nature and you have to remember everything is 131 00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:56,640 kind of specific to the nature of your research and of what they require of you. 132 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:03,660 So of course, everyone's kind of specific specific recommendations will be different. 133 00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:10,740 But in my personal case, it was to kind of go back on one thing, 134 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:19,260 but they had given me enough time to gather all the extra extra kind of literary resources that I needed to do it. 135 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:25,810 And at first, it was a bit harrowinfbecause I wasn't sure about what that meant. 136 00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:29,970 Like, you know, do I get a Ph.D. or what has happened? 137 00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:36,690 But it was only after a few kind of frantic calls to my supervisor and to kind of the chair. 138 00:15:36,690 --> 00:15:40,590 So there's always like a chair that, you know, sits in even online, 139 00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:48,120 and they were able to kind of explain properly what the process of these corrections meant and 140 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,540 which then after I was a bit more calm and not too worried about like I will get my Ph.D., 141 00:15:54,540 --> 00:16:00,540 but this is just what they require. And you know, at the end of the day, it makes it better at the end. 142 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:09,140 So don't be like so disheartened when you feel like you have majorcorrections because the examiners at the end of the day do just want your best. 143 00:16:09,140 --> 00:16:18,190 They just wanted your best interests and will make a more stronger Ph.D. at the end of it. 144 00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:20,740 Yes, and I think that's really important what you just said there, 145 00:16:20,740 --> 00:16:25,930 because people do hear major corrections and they sort of shudder slightly because what 146 00:16:25,930 --> 00:16:30,400 they were imagining for major corrections is is a rewrite of the PhD essential 147 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:37,750 which is not in any way what it is and not you like you say, rightfully put it, it's much more to do with the time it takes. 148 00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:46,360 It will take you to do the work. And so because you get up to three months of minor corrections and up to six months for major. 149 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:53,560 So I wondered if you could say a little bit more about what your your corrections were, what kind of work that you had to do? 150 00:16:53,560 --> 00:17:01,210 Yeah. So yeah, like like you said, it was about the time. So I was given six months essentially and it was all on one chapter. 151 00:17:01,210 --> 00:17:05,350 It was one. I mean, I wrote six chapters and they were fine with the other six. 152 00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:13,930 But it was one chapter that they really wanted me to hone in on to get more kind of, you know, more kind of scholarly knowledge about the field. 153 00:17:13,930 --> 00:17:17,530 And it was it was a chapter on whiteness and whiteness in film. 154 00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:20,530 And of course, you know. 155 00:17:20,530 --> 00:17:29,110 This kind of day and age, you need to be up to date anyway with those, if you're going to kind of go to these kind of topics, say in itself 156 00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:32,290 That's what they told me to do. They gave me a list of books, 157 00:17:32,290 --> 00:17:46,030 a list of authors to go and resource and add those list of authors to my existing bibliography and add that already to the work I had already done. 158 00:17:46,030 --> 00:17:50,830 So it's important to note that it is having major corrections. It is the time. 159 00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:56,590 So, you know, by the time you get the resources six months goes quite quickly. Actually, in terms of resourcing, 160 00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:00,610 the authors going to different libraries getting the books you need and then 161 00:18:00,610 --> 00:18:05,200 taking the time to actually read through them and edit what you need and take in. 162 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,060 You know, just kind of shifting things around six months goes by really quickly. 163 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:14,500 So it was really helpful to actually have those six months in three months. 164 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:21,790 I think it would have been a bit of a scramble. And so with the major corrections on the six months timescale actually was very helpful. 165 00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:31,810 And yeah, just even my own like personal like health issues as well that help me also spread out more, 166 00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:35,980 especially for, you know, people that have kind of, you know, different things. 167 00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:43,960 Life is just really hectic sometimes. So having that extra time actually was a blessing because you were able to kind 168 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:49,810 of spread out a bit longer and make sure that you do the work properly and. 169 00:18:49,810 --> 00:18:54,310 You know, in the time they had given you so that was essentially what my corrections were 170 00:18:54,310 --> 00:19:01,190 was to add more and more kind of literary works to what I had already written. 171 00:19:01,190 --> 00:19:04,420 And so that is why I spent six months doing looking for the books, 172 00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:14,770 getting the books and reworking parts of that chapter that had now had all these new and more updated authors into them. 173 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:23,140 Yeah. And so, you know, the overall from the sounds of it the corrections you had to do is to kind of further develop the literature and one chapter. 174 00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:28,270 But also it seems from what you're saying that they didn't just say that is the correction. 175 00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:32,860 They were actually very specific in what what they wanted you to read and to 176 00:19:32,860 --> 00:19:37,930 incorporate in developing the this kind of scholarly debate in that chapter. 177 00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:43,450 Could you say a little bit more about how prescriptive they were or weren't about what they wanted you to do? 178 00:19:43,450 --> 00:19:51,400 Yeah. Yes. So about a month after the Viva, the PhD report comes through 179 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,420 The report, of course, gives a very detailed description of what they wanted. 180 00:19:56,420 --> 00:19:59,290 So there was kind of one. 181 00:19:59,290 --> 00:20:09,100 You know, there's a few other things actually, apart from the one chapter they wanted me to say to add a bit more of my personal views. 182 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:13,960 So kind of my own positionality in the research say kind of. 183 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:21,250 I mean, I did it and I added about like two, maybe three paragraphs, but they wanted more. 184 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:28,630 And the thing is, it was really good because then I was able to actually sit down and write six extra pages talking about myself. 185 00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:38,710 Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, from three paragraphs to six pages of my positionality, which is what they wanted, you know? 186 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:44,980 So at the end of the day, it makes, you know, like I said, the end result makes for a much stronger Ph.D. 187 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:48,880 So that was the other thing that they wanted me to do apart from the chapter, but it was all very detailed. 188 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,130 It was like, you know, speak more about your positionality in this research 189 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:58,180 And then kind of these are the authors that we'd like to add. 190 00:20:58,180 --> 00:21:03,790 You know, if you're going to talk about, you know, having more as well, you know, doing like, add more, you know, BAME authors. 191 00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:09,720 And they gave me names and books, specific books and authors to kind of go and seek out. 192 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:17,530 And so, you know, they were they were quite gracious in the fact that they were taken the time to actually say, 193 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:23,650 OK, it's not just, you know, go and add more, but actually these are the books we want to see. 194 00:21:23,650 --> 00:21:31,510 And these are the names we want to see to make sure that you have kind of covered all the bases of what we had asked of you. 195 00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:35,620 So they were very detailed in that respect. 196 00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:39,100 And then, of course, you always get those are the major ones and then you always get, you know, 197 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:45,700 the little kind of, you know, minor grammatical ones that they said there was not many of those. 198 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:51,280 But, you know, they also add that to the overall report in terms of, you know, 199 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:57,890 you could have made the sentence a bit shorter here or ass a comment that there's kind of just like minor ones. 200 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:04,870 And but overall, it was, you know, it was helpful to kind of just go through each point and say, 201 00:22:04,870 --> 00:22:10,360 OK, this is what they want and then kind of respond to that. 202 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,960 And you know, there were there were moments where you could where, you know, 203 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,840 you could, I guess, kind of push back a bit and, you know, say to the examiners 204 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,900 You know what? This is what I meant when I said this kind of things like that. 205 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:26,770 So, you know, it is, it is, you know, a dialogue anyway, that's going on. 206 00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:32,590 And at the end of the day, you know, like I said, they were all working towards the same goal, 207 00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:38,590 which is, you know, to have an end product that you will be proud of. 208 00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:43,360 Your supervisor will be proud of and the examiners themselves and will be just really happy to be like OK. 209 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,960 They've done the work that they that we told them to do, and they've done it. 210 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:55,610 So yeah, that was just the main kind of process of just kind of going through that report step by step. 211 00:22:55,610 --> 00:23:01,090 And with that as well. And it was great because my supervisors also see they get a copy of the report as well. 212 00:23:01,090 --> 00:23:02,830 So, you know, for the next six months, 213 00:23:02,830 --> 00:23:11,590 it was just the three of us really just going through this report and making sure that we kind of ticked all the all the boxes that they wanted. 214 00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:15,190 So that was made easier because, you know, OK, wait, one, they want to this. 215 00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:20,590 Have we done that? yeah, they wanted this? Have we done that? So it was just, you know, an easy list, 216 00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:25,090 kind of just going through and make sure that you tick the boxes and then you could kind of submit 217 00:23:25,090 --> 00:23:30,740 this corrections with confidence knowing that you've answered all their questions. 218 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:38,240 Yeah, and I think that was, you know, like you say, it's not it's it's not as generic as you need to develop the literature in this chapter, you know, 219 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,880 and it's not even as as as vague as you need to include more BAME authors, you know, 220 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:50,870 a list of people for you to go about and think about, including and I think that that's, you know, that's what's really important. 221 00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:56,060 And for people to know is that you're getting a level of specificity in this, 222 00:23:56,060 --> 00:24:02,380 they're going to be very, very clear and specific about what they what they want and need you to do. 223 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:08,760 Yes, to enable you to get it to the level that. Will get your Ph.D. 224 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:14,040 What then happened with submitting those corrections? What was the process and how did you find out? 225 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,950 You know, whether or not they'd been approved yet? So the process again was pretty simple. 226 00:24:19,950 --> 00:24:24,960 It's pretty much the same way you'd submit it first time round. 227 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,210 You kind of submit that and try to just remember, did I submit? 228 00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:33,550 Yeah, I think I submitted one. 229 00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:44,770 With the comments say, I kind of did kind of two versions of that where I had one, where I'd kind of put the comments to say, OK. 230 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:49,630 Page 12, Line 16. It was because that's how they were in the report. 231 00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:54,360 And I put that, Oh, I did this, that this author's now added. 232 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,280 So I had all the list of all these comments in there 233 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:08,860 And then I also had another copy that had no comments, but the corrections were made, so I submitted the one anyway, just in case, 234 00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:16,040 as a backup, the one that had no comments and they just submitted it exactly the same way to a email address the same. 235 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:25,270 I submitted the first one and then it's kind of a waiting game there after. 236 00:25:25,270 --> 00:25:40,700 And then you kind of just get an email saying that you, you know, the examiners have reviewed your thesis and the exam board are happy to kind of. 237 00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:48,590 I guess, you know, award you with a Ph.D. and that's it for this episode. 238 00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:51,710 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me. 239 00:25:51,710 --> 00:26:18,370 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

Episode 26 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Six years and a hundred and twenty-three episodes ago, in an earlier era of the podcast, Ben pitched an episode spotlighting the film adaptation of Clamp's apocalyptic manga. Instead, everyone picked Natsuyuki Rendezvous, an anime that Ben hated. Now he'll have his revenge! Duncan and Jeff join him to wonder in bafflement at the attempt to cram a half-dozen volumes of material into an hour and a half of screen time... and maybe find something to love? Not Andy, though. Andy calls in at the end to say that it's pants. The post Inbetween 26 - Afraid of the Future (X/1999) first appeared on Key Frames.

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Connor Horton, Dr. Daniela Lazaro Pancheco and Dr. Edward Mills about their experiences of doing minor corrections after their viva.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:32,720 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,300 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of R&D and the In-betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 4 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:41,450 And today we've got another compilation episode for you. 5 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:48,500 So a number of you have been asking to do an episode on corrections, so corrections after you've had your viva. 6 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:55,520 So I have spoken to recent graduates about both minor and major corrections, and for this episode, 7 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,500 I'm going to be talking to Connor, Daniela and Edward about their minor corrections. 8 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:13,370 Yes, so my name is Connor. I used to study - well did a PhD in - cell biology at the university between 2015 and 2019, and then came out into the 9 00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:22,190 COVID 19 job market, and have now found a job in medical communications where I'm writing for an agency in London. 10 00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:28,060 So I guess the first question is: what was your viva experience like, 11 00:01:28,060 --> 00:01:37,800 and what did you get in terms of corrections afterwards? Yes, so my viva was actually a really good experience, actually. 12 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,410 I was always told that old adage, it's the only time that anyone's going to be really interested about your work, 13 00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:47,730 so you should enjoy it because you're never going to get as many questions about your work again. 14 00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:54,180 So, yeah, mine was was really good. I had a really good external assessor, and a good internal assessor. 15 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:56,760 And I think the whole process took around two and a half to three hours. 16 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:02,940 So my viva corrections were minor corrections, which was which was good because you would have that. 17 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:08,310 worry going in. You know, like how much am I going to have to actually don top of this? 18 00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:12,870 But it was really things like, you know, adding in more sections of things they wanted included. 19 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:17,340 So I had to put those in, remove certain figures or change figure legends. 20 00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:23,310 And then most of it was kind of grammatical and yeah, just punctuation and capitals and things like that. 21 00:02:23,310 --> 00:02:27,450 So it wasn't actually too much, which was just great. Yeah. 22 00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:31,890 And I think that's reassuring for people to hear that minor really does mean minor. 23 00:02:31,890 --> 00:02:37,740 And you know, it's it's has to be stuff that can get done within within three months. 24 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:41,310 But for many people, it's stuff that can be done within a couple of days. 25 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:46,200 Yeah, when you see minor and you actually see what the revisions are, you're like, 'actually, it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be.' 26 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:54,510 So it's not as bad. And I was going to say, how were the revisions and the corrections communicated to you? 27 00:02:54,510 --> 00:02:57,830 So it was quite nerve racking when I went into my viva because of course, 28 00:02:57,830 --> 00:03:03,060 I did it in the time before COVID, where we did it all with physical copies and in person. 29 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:08,820 And you see examiners come in with a copy of your thesis that is just absolutely covered in Post-it Notes and you're like, 30 00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:15,630 Oh my God, like, was there that much wrong with it? A lot of it is comments that they have or things that they want to touch upon. 31 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:21,900 But I think when I received my final set of corrections, it very much was, you know, 32 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:26,130 a kind of a table of how the whole thing went and my kind of like, 'overall 33 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:30,330 satisfactory' or like the kind of comments that they had about the viva process. 34 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:36,600 And then underneath was a list of like what page number there was and then what needed changing and what line and things like that. 35 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,370 So it's very much it's very quick to do because it corresponds to, yeah, it's two specific pages, 36 00:03:42,370 --> 00:03:48,420 so you can just quickly whizz through it and and find the bits that they're talking about and correct them. 37 00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:52,230 And I think, again, that's another thing that causes people anxiety, it's that sense of, well, 38 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:57,180 you know, 'am I going to be in the dark about what it is they actually will want me to do?' 39 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:06,660 whereas actually examiners tend to be pretty specific and prescriptive about what the changes are that they want to make. 40 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:12,300 Yeah, I don't think it was unfair at all and what they said, and I think everything was quite clearly put across. 41 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:19,530 But I think you've also got to remember that that they're not looking for excuses to fail you, that they're looking for a lot of reasons to pass you. 42 00:04:19,530 --> 00:04:24,180 And you know, they want you to do the best that you can. And that really came across in the discussions that we had. 43 00:04:24,180 --> 00:04:27,930 They were really encouraging and they really wanted to encourage a great discussion and really kind 44 00:04:27,930 --> 00:04:32,610 of tease into the knowledge that I had and allow it to come out and they're not trying to trick you, 45 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:37,560 which I think is another thing. You know, a lot of people think that it's like a good cop bad cop routine when you go in. They were both, 46 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,030 you know, really pleasant in my experience, really wanted to talk about the science. 47 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:47,370 And I think everything that they gave me was corrections was entirely fair. And yeah, they were incredibly transparent, which is good. 48 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:57,470 So. And how did you approach that period or the kind of time you took to undertake those corrections? 49 00:04:57,470 --> 00:05:06,340 Did you just kind of print off a list and tick them off as you went through; you know, how did you actually go about it? 50 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:14,530 Yes, so I think I did what most people did and came out the viva and was like, 'Oh my God, thank God, that's done.' 51 00:05:14,530 --> 00:05:18,520 My viva was in November, so I was very much like, 'Oh, 52 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:24,640 I'll have Christmas and I'll sit on these for a bit and you know, I'll do it in the in the new year.' 53 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:31,480 But I think it's fair to say as well that there was an element of burnout that I was kind of experiencing after my Ph.D. 54 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,160 I think like, 55 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:43,120 you're always operating at incredibly high level for (I think my PhD was four years) and you're always operating at maximum capacity. 56 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,620 And yeah, you get you finally finish and, you know, everyone tells you, oh, 57 00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:52,960 you got to submit your thesis and then you submit your thesis and then you'vew gotta have a viva and then you have your viva, 58 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,280 And even then it's it's still not over. 59 00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:02,590 So mentally, it was kind of like, 'when is the final bits?', you know, and when you get to the corrections, that is very much the final section. 60 00:06:02,590 --> 00:06:09,490 But I think mentally for me is just never really see the end in sight because every time you have an ending, there's another bit to be done. 61 00:06:09,490 --> 00:06:14,500 And so to approach the corrections, yeah, I had the list, went through, 62 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:20,320 ticked them off, mase sure that everything was like absolutely perfect before sending it back. 63 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:26,740 And then even when you send them back, you're like, 'Oh, will my examiners agree with the corrections that I've made?' 64 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:29,350 Or, you know, there's still an element of uncertainty. 65 00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:35,690 It wasn't until I actually got my certificate in the post that I could actually kind of relax a bit and be like, 'Oh, it's it's over.' 66 00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:44,560 You know, it's done. And did you hear quite quickly that your corrections had been accepted? 67 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,860 The whole process was very quick, actually. So I submitted my thesis in September, my viva was in November. 68 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:57,370 I submitted my corrections in January and I think a week later I got an email saying that it had been approved by the Senate of the university. 69 00:06:57,370 --> 00:06:59,350 And that a PhD would be awarded. 70 00:06:59,350 --> 00:07:06,250 So I kind of look back on that and I was like, I don't know why it took me so long to do that because it could have been done before the new year. 71 00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:09,100 But I think, yeah, you've got to have that kind of aspect of - mentally, 72 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:13,020 You've also got to do what is right for you as well, and you have three months to turn them around. 73 00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:16,810 So. Yeah, and I think that's really, 74 00:07:16,810 --> 00:07:22,600 really important actually that you recognise that the kind of the impact of the burnout and that you've got three months, 75 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,070 it doesn't make any difference to anybody other than you, 76 00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:32,290 You know, if you submit within a week or within at the end, the end of those three months, 77 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:39,790 it's how you manage your time depending on what other responsibilities you have or you know what other pressures you have, 78 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:43,360 but also, you know your well-being. Yeah, exactly. 79 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,490 Yeah, that's probably a take-home message from this, I think, is, you know, look after yourself first. 80 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:55,090 And I was very lucky to have supervisors that kind of agreed to me on that and very supportive for the whole process. 81 00:07:55,090 --> 00:08:04,450 My name is Daniella Pacheco. Right now, I work as a postdoctoral research assistant at the engineering department. 82 00:08:04,450 --> 00:08:11,860 My research is currently focussed on the study of the intervertebral disc in order to improve the testing 83 00:08:11,860 --> 00:08:21,040 for new therapies that eventually will lead to treat degeneration in the spine and low back pain. 84 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,510 So I did my viva back in 2019. 85 00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:29,140 It was quite a good experience, I would say. 86 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:40,840 Fortunately, the outcome of my viva, I passed with minor corrections. Once we completed the viva and my viva lasted almost three hours, 87 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:49,450 I - they mentioned that they will send a report with all the notes and the recommendations for me to to make the corrections. 88 00:08:49,450 --> 00:08:59,380 And what I received was a very detailed list that was numbered with very specific parts to be corrected on my thesis. More than content, 89 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:07,240 it was a week of editing, a week of going into more detail having some explanations and very little technical 90 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:13,600 corrections in terms of the content of what I wrote for my dissertation or for my thesis. 91 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,680 I waited around a month for my list of corrections. 92 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:25,120 To be honest, I thought it was quite a long proces: I emailed asking when I'm going to receive this. 93 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:31,480 In that case is a little bit tricky as well because I was an international student back then. 94 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,360 So all these processes linked to my visa and my time started to apply or go back 95 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,810 to my country or where my - where I'm allowed to take any extra work as well. 96 00:09:43,810 --> 00:09:48,760 So time is also something that you should pay attention on. 97 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,230 If that's something that you worry about, like, you communicate that to your department. 98 00:09:53,230 --> 00:10:02,590 That's probably my recommendation there. So I received this document Word lwith, as I mentioned, a numbered list. In my case, 99 00:10:02,590 --> 00:10:12,930 There were around 20 lines or 20 corrections. As I mentioned before, they were very specific in terms of 'Line 16, 100 00:10:12,930 --> 00:10:22,860 Page - number of the page, number of the paragraph', and then a little bit description of what they wanted for that paragraph to change, 101 00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:25,380 for what they want, if they require more detail, 102 00:10:25,380 --> 00:10:35,470 if they want, if they say it wasn't clear enough that the content was okay based on their discussion on the viva, but it required some rewriting. 103 00:10:35,470 --> 00:10:38,620 And so are some rewording in some cases, 104 00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:47,140 they ask at part of my conclusions to add content and be more explicit on my suggestions or recommendations for future work. 105 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:52,450 So I will say some of them were very editorial that were very easy to address. 106 00:10:52,450 --> 00:11:00,070 And in terms of content they were, they were quite descriptive of what they expected based on our discussion. 107 00:11:00,070 --> 00:11:04,810 I mentioned that there were around 20 corrections on this list. There were two pages in a Word 108 00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:10,390 Document, so even where there were quite a lot of corrections suggested there, 109 00:11:10,390 --> 00:11:15,640 They were easy to address and they were briefly but clearly descripted. 110 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,810 It took me around probably three hours to do the whole corrections. 111 00:11:19,810 --> 00:11:26,470 So in my case, it was very simple. Even when it took me three hours, which I was very glad, 112 00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:32,470 once the process - I spent a month before receiving a little a bit of stress and anxiety, 113 00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:37,510 and just thinking 'how long this is going to take?', even when I have three months and they were more than enough. 114 00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:45,490 And even because I was applying for different visas and I was checking where my opportunities were in terms of jobs, 115 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:50,020 I waited till the last week to submit my corrections. 116 00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:56,500 So I sent the I sent the corrections to my internal examiner through an email. 117 00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:02,740 It was quite a very informal but clear process to follow there. Hello, my name is Edward Mills. 118 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:12,860 I am a lecturer in medieval studies here at the University of Exeter, and I completed my viva in October 2020. 119 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:18,770 So can you tell us a little bit about your corrections? So you got minor corrections, is that correct? 120 00:12:18,770 --> 00:12:20,390 That's correct, yes. Minor corrections. 121 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:28,940 So first of all, can you tell us a little bit about how your examiners talked to you about your corrections in the viva? 122 00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:32,870 So my examiners gave me minor corrections at the end of viva life. 123 00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:41,600 They were very helpful actually in distinguishing, both in the viva and in the report they sent to me afterwards, thesis corrections 124 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:48,380 which would need to be completed in order for the thesis to be accepted on revision 125 00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:55,880 and then possible future corrections if the thesis were to be published as a book. 126 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:05,870 They made it clear that the corrections to have the thesis accepted for the first part of those two were fairly minor, 127 00:13:05,870 --> 00:13:10,940 but they were clear from from the end of the thesis - from the end of the viva onwards. 128 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:15,710 So when you say they were fairly minor (yep), can you elaborate on what that is? 129 00:13:15,710 --> 00:13:19,730 Because I think for a lot of people, until they go through it, 130 00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:24,470 They don't actually know what minor corrections entail. 131 00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:30,500 So minor corrections for me meant corrections that could be achieved within a period of about three months. 132 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:38,750 So my viva was in October, and I had until, I think, mid-January to actually submit those corrections. 133 00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:44,450 I'm actually looking now at the spreadsheet I made with all of the corrections that I was given on it. 134 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:52,370 And they ranged from picking out particularly 135 00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:59,570 Unclear or problematic single phrases that I've used, so I've got one example here, which says simply, 136 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:07,490 I've talked about 'reductive modern understandings', and I was asked to unpack that debate, make it a bit clearer what that precisely meant. 137 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:17,000 Another example of something similar to that: I was asked to provide my definition of the term 'didactic', however broad it might be. 138 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,840 I just use that term and left it hanging. I was asked to clarify that slightly. 139 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,830 So we're talking about really, really specific things. 140 00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:31,920 Yes, I think everything in my minor corrections was within an individual chapter. 141 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:38,400 There was nothing that cuts across the board of chapters. And so how were these corrections communicated to you? 142 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,570 So in two ways, I think. The first was during the viva itself. 143 00:14:42,570 --> 00:14:51,270 I, it became clear as the examiners went through my thesis - and they did take a fairly linear approach during the viva - 144 00:14:51,270 --> 00:14:55,170 which bits they returned to and where I could probably expect comments. 145 00:14:55,170 --> 00:14:58,830 But the main way in which I got corrections was in the Examiner's report, 146 00:14:58,830 --> 00:15:05,310 which I received about three or four weeks after the viva. Which I should say is completely normal. 147 00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:12,280 Yes. It does take some time and your correction period. 148 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,340 Whatever it is, three months for minor, six months for major, et cetera, doesn't start until you get that report. 149 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:22,060 It doesn't start on the day of the viva. It does make for a slightly nervous three weeks after the viva. 150 00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:27,760 Yes. Yes. Worth pointing out. But when I got the report back. 151 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,190 The thing that I noticed it was for me, it was a PDF document. 152 00:15:31,190 --> 00:15:36,310 And the thing that I noticed when I looked at it was it was - I was given effectively page reference, 153 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:42,100 possibly a quote from my thesis and then a question. 154 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:46,290 So for example, 'are you making assumptions here?' 155 00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:55,910 Question mark. And the expectation was for me to answer that question or clarify or resolve something that I left hanging. 156 00:15:55,910 --> 00:16:00,860 So there was nothing ambiguous about the corrections that they wanted you to do. 157 00:16:00,860 --> 00:16:07,250 No, they'd made it clear to me that I couldn't go back to them directly, but that I could go through my supervisor once. 158 00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:11,670 But I think, what I mean more is the list that they gave you. 159 00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:18,230 It's very clear what they expected you to do to. Resubmit and pass. 160 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:21,560 Yes, I would. I think I was very fortunate in that respect. 161 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:28,580 And I think it's fair to say with with minor and major corrections, actually there is, you know, 162 00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:33,800 There's a level quite a level of specificity of what it is the examiners want you to do. 163 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,420 Yes, I've actually got one example here on the spreadsheet, which is perhaps a little detailed, 164 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:42,830 but I'm going to give it because it's a really good example of a single minor correction. 165 00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:52,010 OK. So on Page 304, for example, the examiner has asked the question, 'French is indeed a language of court and cloister, 166 00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:59,120 But why does this make it ambivalent as a language?', which is a really specific and also a really good question. 167 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:06,040 And then I fixed that by changing the term from 'ambivalent' to 'polyvalent'. 168 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:14,020 That was an example of a super-specific correction. And so you mentioned a spreadsheet. 169 00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:18,950 Yes. So this is something about how you - how you managed and responded to your corrections. 170 00:17:18,950 --> 00:17:24,820 Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes. So the simple answer to that is: 171 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:32,980 I went and made a spreadsheet because I noticed that all of my comments on things to fix came in the form of questions, 172 00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:38,980 I thought the easiest way of doing it would be to copy and paste the entire document 173 00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:45,100 into an Excel spreadsheet and break it up so that for each row in a spreadsheet, 174 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:51,550 I would have a page reference, whether it was a minor correction for the thesis or future one, 175 00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:56,590 and I would focus on the kind of minor corrections for resubmission. 176 00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:06,700 I then had a box next to it, which said, 'changed?' with an X on it when I done that and then details as well. The details column said 177 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:14,170 Something like, for example, 'added a note on Page 248 to clarify this' or 'fixed awkward phrasing.' 178 00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:22,120 And so was this just for your own benefit or was this something you had to submit, or ... I didn't have to submit it, actually, but I chose to. 179 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:26,890 It was mainly for my own benefit so that I could make sure that I'd done everything. 180 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:34,660 The other thing to note is that as I added a little bit of material (and I did tend to find that the process of making corrections involved 181 00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:41,050 adding a little bit of material to the thesis here and there), the page numbers would go out of whack. 182 00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:48,730 So it allowed me to say things like 'fixed awkward phrasing (brackets was on page 247 in the original; now page 249.) 183 00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:55,660 And that meant I could go and check things very quickly. I then made the decision when I was. 184 00:18:55,660 --> 00:19:00,430 Resubmitting - well, not resubmitting, when I was submitting the revised thesis, I should say, 185 00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:05,560 with the minor corrections incorporated - to send in the spreadsheet alongside it. 186 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:13,210 There's no requirement to do that, but I thought it might improve my chances of not being sent back again with corrections. 187 00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:22,330 And indeed I was actually told that my internal examiner very much appreciated that, specially because it made her life a lot easier. 188 00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:27,040 So that was my next question: so what happened when you'd done the corrections? 189 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:34,570 So when I'd done the corrections, there was a period of waiting. So you submitted them again, but just directly to the internal examiner, 190 00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:38,830 was that correct? I actually submitted them to the postgraduate administration team. 191 00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:47,480 Yes. Rather than to the Examiner directly. It's their job then to to pass that on and indeed to manage the process. 192 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,660 And then you had another period of waiting. I did. 193 00:19:50,660 --> 00:19:57,290 I had a slightly longer period of waiting than the period between the the viva and the and the report, 194 00:19:57,290 --> 00:20:00,320 which is perhaps understandable because it's the way these things work. 195 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:10,340 Again, it's a perfectly normal thing because at some point your examiner, internal examiner, needs to sit down and read the corrections. 196 00:20:10,340 --> 00:20:19,310 And, you know, depending on how minor they are, you know, even if you know they are the kind of things that you're talking about, 197 00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:24,680 it will take some time for them to read and digest and reflect. 198 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,100 And so it's not something that can be done kind of ad hoc. 199 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:32,450 It's something that they need to kind of focus on. So sometimes it will take a few weeks to get back to you, 200 00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:38,240 although it might be worth thinking about how you can make your life easier for your internal examiners if that one of reviewing it, 201 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,130 such as, for example, with a spreadsheet, because that would help the internal examiner to track their progress as well. 202 00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:46,130 And that may have from a purely selfish perspective made them a little better 203 00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:50,150 disposed towards me while they were making those comments on the corrections. 204 00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:53,570 I'm yeah, I'm not sure it can influence their decision, but it shouldn't - 205 00:20:53,570 --> 00:21:03,570 But it for certain can't hurt. Exactly. So. So how did you find out that the corrections have been approved? Via email, 206 00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:11,040 Actually! I got an email saying that my corrections had been approved and I had been recommended for an award. 207 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:18,900 Effectively the the next meeting of the appropriate committee would review things and hopefully approve it. 208 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:24,180 That went through, I think, on something like the 8th or the 9th of February. 209 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:28,230 And then on the 11th my birthday, I actually got confirmation. 210 00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:32,310 I got the infamous email that begins 'Dear Doctor Surname'. 211 00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:37,230 So 'Dear Dr. Mills'. What a birthday present! I know, right? 212 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:46,980 Thank you so much to Connor, Daniella and Edward for their time and insight into their process of receiving and doing their minor corrections. 213 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:51,750 But of course, minor corrections is only part of the story. 214 00:21:51,750 --> 00:22:00,750 In our next episode, we'll be talking to researchers about the process of doing major corrections. And that's it for this episode. 215 00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:03,900 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe, and join me 216 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:30,552 next time, where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development, and everything in between.  

Episode 25 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. It's finally here, the moment where we get to talk about tanks as much as we want—as opposed to every other episode of this podcast, where Ben just talks about tanks until everyone else makes him stop! Duncan and Jeff join him now to chat about Girls und Panzer, a 2012 anime by Tsutomu Mizushima that's somehow spawned a massive franchise. Tune in to hear them discuss everything from the ethics of a show that gamifies war to the best tanks and their teams! The post Inbetween 25 - A Car Built to Kill (Girls und Panzer) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 24 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What even is a metaphor? Is it meant to be a comparison between every aspect of two objects, or just one between their most salient features? Is there value in unsuited metaphors, ones mischaracterizing the nature or intent of one object (or both), or is there an intellectual and even ethical responsibility for metaphor to reveal a deeper truth? Is wanting to eat someone the same as wanting to have sex with them? All this (and more) will probably not be answered as Andy, Duncan, and Jeff explore the latest season of Beastars! The post Inbetween 24 - A Harrison Bergeron Situation (Beastars 2nd Season) first appeared on Key Frames.

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Ghee Bowman, Tracey Warren, Kensa Broadhurst, Laura Burnett and Catherine Queen about being a mature PGR - the benefits, the challenges, and what Universities need to do better.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:15,800 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:32,210 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:36,170 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:39,140 That's right. You are hearing my dulcet tones again. 5 00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:47,930 I am back after a three episode break where the wonderful Dr. Edward Mills guest hosted a few episodes for me. 6 00:00:47,930 --> 00:00:53,450 So in this episode, I'm going to be carrying on a conversation that started actually on Twitter. 7 00:00:53,450 --> 00:01:02,660 So a number of our PGRs raised issues with some of the support that's available at the university for them as mature PGRs. 8 00:01:02,660 --> 00:01:12,050 And so we thought it'd be really valuable to have a conversation about what it means to be a mature PGR, what that even is, what the challenges are, 9 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:24,710 what the benefits are, and also what advice they have for any mature students who are thinking of starting or about to start a research degree. 10 00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:29,110 So let's start with introductions. Ghee and Tracey happy to go first. 11 00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:37,920 Hello, my name is Ghee Bowman. I finished my Ph.D. in history in well I submitted in September 2019. 12 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,810 I am now. I'll be sixty in two months. 13 00:01:41,810 --> 00:01:54,380 I came back to do a PhD as a relatively mature student because I found a story that really fascinated and intrigued me. 14 00:01:54,380 --> 00:02:00,770 Hi, I'm Tracey Warren. I did an EdD or I'm doing it. 15 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:06,860 I submitted about four weeks ago, so I got my viva in three weeks. 16 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:18,470 I was working in Abu Dhabi and Dubai when I started this journey, so I did it as a distance learning international student. 17 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:21,080 That's great. Now, Catherine and Kensa. Hi. 18 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:30,770 Yeah, I, I've been working in private practise for over thirty years as a town planner and a landscape architect, 19 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:34,160 and there was a real world problem that troubled me. 20 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:41,720 And I had the bright idea of coming back to university and actually doing a PhD to try and answer the question that I had in my mind. 21 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:50,330 So I actually applied for a Ph.D. that was advertised, fully funded and with a supervisor that I particularly wanted to work with. 22 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:55,040 So I've come back into human geography. Hi, my name is Kensa 23 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:06,050 I am a second year full time student at the Institute for Cornish Studies, which is in Exeter's other campus down in Penryn in Cornwall. 24 00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:15,470 I had been a teacher for about twenty years, having done the normal university master's degree straight after undergraduate. 25 00:03:15,470 --> 00:03:22,700 And then I was made redundant and very serendipitously that summer that I left school. 26 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:34,100 My PhD, which came with funding for my fees, was advertised and I thought, why not I'd always wanted to do one 27 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:40,220 So I applied, got this award at the studentship and started the PhD and last. 28 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:41,990 But by no means least, Laura, 29 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:52,160 I'm Laura Burnett, I'm doing a PhD in history and archaeology and I did the undergraduate degree in archaeology and then I worked for a few years, 30 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:58,820 digging and so on then went back into the Master's. And then I worked professionally within archaeology for about fifteen years. 31 00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:06,740 And I always knew I wanted to come back and do a Ph.D. but it was around identifying a topic that I knew I wanted to do and I knew would work. 32 00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:12,710 And then timing wise, it's been about fitting around kind of family requirements and so on. 33 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:17,390 And that's why I started now and partly why I've chosen to start in Exeter 34 00:04:17,390 --> 00:04:19,670 Thanks, everyone, for those fabulous introductions. 35 00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:28,190 I think what that really captures is the varying routes back into or into postgraduate research and postgraduate study. 36 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:31,580 And I wondered if we could just take a little bit of a step back, actually, 37 00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:38,210 and think about what we mean by the term mature student or in this case, mature PGR. 38 00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:41,300 They'll be kind of an official university label, 39 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:47,570 which generally encompasses somebody who has'nt gone straight through tertiary and further and higher education. 40 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:54,920 So GCSE's A-levels, undergraduate degree, master's degree straight into some form of research degree, 41 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:03,230 but that doesn't necessarily work as a label for everyone. And I wondered what you thought of it as a term and how you felt about it as a 42 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:08,270 label and a classification of who you are as a as a researcher and as a student. 43 00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:13,970 I think it is reasonable to label it. I don't know whether we can define how quickly I think is quite typical. 44 00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:17,870 My experience in talking to students is one or two years gap, 45 00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:25,020 but I think all of us here are people who've had a much longer gap the between kind of finishing our undergraduate off. 46 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:29,820 As you know, it's not just one or two years of working at that or saving up some money. 47 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:34,860 We've all had quite substantial gaps, which probably did change both our life situation, 48 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:40,890 but also the kind of experience and viewpoint we bring to doing a Ph.D. 49 00:05:40,890 --> 00:05:45,630 So I think it's worth thinking about a separate group, but I wouldn't say it's people who just haven't gone straight through. 50 00:05:45,630 --> 00:05:52,830 I'd say probably the people have had at least four to five years of professional experience before they come back. 51 00:05:52,830 --> 00:05:57,480 I you know, I kind of I self identify as young. 52 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,870 And this is an expression that someone as someone said the other week to me and I thought that's such a great thing to say. 53 00:06:03,870 --> 00:06:11,670 So I mean, I don't know what mature means, really. I mean, yes. I mean, you know, when I started my PhD, I was in my mid 50s, 54 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:18,300 but in some ways I would kind of question what, you know, what what the differences are. 55 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:26,690 I mean, it's partly I think it's I you know, on the whole, I think I'm blessed with the ability to get on with people of all ages. 56 00:06:26,690 --> 00:06:33,540 And so I kind of you know, I didn't I never struggled with people, you know, 57 00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:39,390 my fellow students who were in their early 20s or or their mid 20s, mid 20s seems to be the norm. 58 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:44,850 But, you know, there was certainly some who were kind of like, you know, twenty two years old starting a Ph.D., 59 00:06:44,850 --> 00:06:48,990 which, of course, I never imagined myself doing when I was anything like that age. 60 00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:55,770 But I don't know. I just kind of think that, yes, it's a long time since I was an undergraduate. 61 00:06:55,770 --> 00:07:05,640 And I am very grateful for doing I'm very glad that I didn't do a Ph.D. when I was 20 or 25 or 30 or, 62 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,120 you know, actually it was the right time when I started in my mid 50s. 63 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:18,670 So I kind of reject the premise here, actually, that there is anything different about being a mature student. 64 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:25,650 I think you do that. You do. When it's right for you. It doesn't work for everyone, you know, and it it's not always easy. 65 00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:29,970 But in my case, it was the right time. Yeah, I love that. 66 00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:36,360 And I think in all of your introductions, when you were talking about how you came to doing your research degree, 67 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:44,940 you were all talking or providing us with stories that were very much about the right, the right time and the right topic. 68 00:07:44,940 --> 00:07:49,980 So from my perspective, I think it's a combination of experience, 69 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:59,430 opportunity and an eagerness to get into the world of work that I really didn't want to go through any more formal education. 70 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:06,510 And I obviously did the undergraduate degree straight through to Masters, literally, because I didn't know what else I wanted to do. 71 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:12,540 I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job. And I had quite a. 72 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:19,170 A negative experience as a master's student for my first master's degree, 73 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:26,790 and actually I think had I then gone straight through to a Ph.D., wouldn't have been I wouldn't have the maturity that I have. 74 00:08:26,790 --> 00:08:39,090 Now, some people might argue I don't. And now having had sort of 20 years away from mainly away from academia and having worked in the real world, 75 00:08:39,090 --> 00:08:44,770 I know I'm quite happy to sort of ask things and go, OK, but I'm not happy about that. 76 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:49,080 And this is what I want to do. And please, can you help me with this? 77 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:57,480 And I think that 22 year old, 23 year old Kensa would not have had that self-awareness or that confidence to ask for 78 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:04,350 those sorts of things and therefore have got the most out of what was available to me. 79 00:09:04,350 --> 00:09:09,930 And maybe that's maybe that's a reflection also of how academia's moved on. 80 00:09:09,930 --> 00:09:13,430 But I think that. 81 00:09:13,430 --> 00:09:21,590 As other people have said, it's the right time for me, I think it would have been a far more I'm not saying it's not stressful today. 82 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:28,610 We all know that and we all know the amount of work and pressure that we often put ourselves under. 83 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:34,520 But early twenties kensa  would not have talking about myself in the third person. 84 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:41,060 would not have coped with that in the way that I find that I'm able to do so now. 85 00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:45,800 I just wanted to reinforce what Kensa said. I completely agree with that. 86 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,060 I mean, I'm not quite as mature as Ghee, but not far off. 87 00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:54,170 And I don't feel that I would have had the confidence to do what I'm doing now. 88 00:09:54,170 --> 00:09:59,210 I think impostor syndrome is a problem for everybody, regardless of age. 89 00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:07,820 And I think sometimes as an older student, you can find a problem, but you also have the resources to to work with it. 90 00:10:07,820 --> 00:10:13,640 You have the confidence to ask the questions. You're not so worried about how you appear to others. 91 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:20,910 Yeah. And it's that that thing of being able to be confident enough to say, actually, I'm struggling with this. 92 00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:23,360 Can somebody help me? Can somebody advise? 93 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:29,150 And I think mature students maybe find that a little bit easier to do because you don't really have anything to prove. 94 00:10:29,150 --> 00:10:33,710 It is lovely talking to the mature students. And actually that was something that really surprised me coming back. 95 00:10:33,710 --> 00:10:42,020 I thought I would be massively older than everyone else and I was massively heartened in my first few days to sit next to lots of the 96 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:48,860 people who were older and to go into the Induction in history and realise I was not the oldest person there by about 15 years, 97 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:50,870 which is what I clearly expected to be. 98 00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:59,150 So I think people perhaps right now myself, I wasn't aware of how many mature PhD and research students there are. 99 00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:07,250 So I think that's something I hope, you know, this will make people realise, if I think you're coming in, is that this is not an unusual situation. 100 00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:10,730 Yeah, and I think that's really key because there is even in the way that I frame 101 00:11:10,730 --> 00:11:16,670 this and challenge this so beautifully is is this assumption of difference. 102 00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:23,700 And, you know, like saying actually, you know, we're all human beings coming to this at the right time in our lives. 103 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:29,240 So are we really that different? But also, you know, the community is diverse. 104 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,580 And so I wondered if you could maybe reflect on what it was like coming in as a mature 105 00:11:34,580 --> 00:11:40,910 student and what your experience was of of your assumption of of perhaps being different, 106 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:44,880 but also the reaction and response from your peers? 107 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:53,990 I think I've been really lucky. The department I went into, everybody was absolutely lovely and it just wasn't even a consideration. 108 00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:58,880 You know, I was at Freshers Week with everybody else, OK? I wasn't out partying, obviously. 109 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,230 But, you know, I was just with a bunch of other people who were all starting at the same time. 110 00:12:03,230 --> 00:12:05,480 They were all fantastic. We got on really well. 111 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:13,280 And I didn't really feel that age was even a consideration at any stage on that kind of carried on right the way through for me, really. 112 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,140 I found everybody very supportive. And it's just it's a community of people. 113 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:22,070 I think age is just a state of mind. Yeah, age is a state of mind. 114 00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:24,920 I love that. And I think for me, 115 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:33,560 what made the crucial difference was that I came back and did the Masters more or less well I had a year between the Masters and the Ph.D. 116 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:42,980 So I was starting a Masters in my fifties after having been out of formal education for twenty years or so. 117 00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:52,550 And and so I struggled a bit when I started the Masters with kind of getting back into, oh, OK. 118 00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:58,640 So here's a confession. When I was an undergraduate, I did my undergraduate degree in the early 1980s at Hull university. 119 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,380 And it was a degree in drama and I was the worst student you can imagine. 120 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:07,100 I was you know, I was partying I was living it up. 121 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:13,130 I was doing lots of productions, but I was not doing the work that was required to do to do the degree. 122 00:13:13,130 --> 00:13:23,270 And I very nearly failed. I came out with a 2:2 and I even though I was quite bright, I was just not doing putting the work in. 123 00:13:23,270 --> 00:13:30,830 And and that was, you know, that was so it was never nothing could be further from my mind when I was twenty. 124 00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:32,450 Than I would be doing a PhD. 125 00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:41,120 So I had to kind of between that stage of finishing my bachelor's degree and starting my master's degree 30 something years later, 126 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:48,170 I had to go through a long, long journey, which involved all kinds of stops along the way, where I realised, 127 00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:54,350 for example, that I was able to to write reasonably well, which is a skill I had anyway. 128 00:13:54,350 --> 00:14:00,840 But I didn't kind of I didn't have the confidence to realise that I was able to read and, 129 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:07,560 you know, read some kind of difficult theoretical text as well as the more straightforward. 130 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:19,720 And that I could tell that I could cope, but even so, starting the Masters, as I did in September 2014, I think it was was an interesting shock. 131 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:28,540 And coming up against some of the some of the kind of the sort of the styles and the 132 00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:36,310 ways of being and the ways of talking and the and the how seminars were conducted, 133 00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:41,320 those kind of things are done quite some quite theoretical stuff which I struggled with. 134 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:47,690 And that was the difficult part, having then finished the Masters and done well in the Masters. 135 00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:55,260 Then when I started the PhD that that was an easy transition at the same university, it was the same department, some of the same people around me. 136 00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:59,950 So, yeah, it was the Masters beginning. That was a difficult thing. 137 00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:08,560 And I think I just going to make two points and one of them builds on Ghee's so if I start with that one that I'm thinking about, 138 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,900 kind of positioning yourself in department. 139 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:18,280 One thing I found a little strange is coming in as someone who's used to managing their work and managing their own time. 140 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,320 That's in some of the university setup. It's a little bit more hierarchical. 141 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:29,530 So my supervisor is massively long suffering because he he keeps going about things, 142 00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:35,260 saying things like, you know, has Laura checked your permission to do this ? He just very calmly says, yes, if I haven't, 143 00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:41,200 because I completely forgot that I need to ask my supervisor whether I could do this thing that they could relate to, 144 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:47,620 but not because I'm not in the habit of asking somebody else's permission to do in research. 145 00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:54,160 So, yes, they're very, very sorry about that. But I do think that can sometimes be perhaps difference. 146 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:00,610 The students who go straight through when they need to move from being a student in a 147 00:16:00,610 --> 00:16:05,920 hierarchical relationship within the department to moving to be a collaborator and a colleague. 148 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,090 And obviously people, who come in as mature students and perhaps people in something like archaeology, 149 00:16:10,090 --> 00:16:15,190 which is very collegiate subject in general, are more used to that relationship. 150 00:16:15,190 --> 00:16:23,440 And I think you have to have the right supervisors and colleagues around you who are expecting that they're not expecting you to be a slightly shy, 151 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,700 retiring or unsure students. They realise that you are a professional experienced person. 152 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:37,660 Right. The other point I was going to make about freshers week and joining in, as someone who 153 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,800 I've got my family responsibilities and I have young children and also, 154 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,590 although I live reasonably close to Exeter about an hour's driveway, 155 00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:51,910 so I've not moved to Exeter to do the PhD so I can get involved in some department of life. 156 00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:55,240 And that was one reason I chose Exeter was I am close enough to do that. 157 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:02,560 But I didn't really take part in things like some of the more social side freshers week or some of the more social side the department. 158 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,600 And that does make a difference, I think. And yes. 159 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:16,750 And I think to sort of carry on with what Laura says, I live relatively near the Penryn campus, but I started at funny time of year. 160 00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:23,320 I actually started in November of twenty nineteen. So I sort of missed out on all the induction things. 161 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:31,330 So I very much don't feel part of the social side of Penryn campus at all. 162 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:36,130 However, three months later, we then went into lockdown. We went online. 163 00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:43,150 And the great thing that I think actually has made my PhD and again, it feeds back to this, you know, 164 00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:50,560 not not feeling older or not not not sort of being perceived as being older than the other students. 165 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:58,210 Is the online community and online sort of support community has has been great and everyone is equal. 166 00:17:58,210 --> 00:18:05,950 Everyone is treated equally. So you really don't notice who's a mature student and who isn't. 167 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:12,190 And the other thing that Laura was saying about it's the idea of asking permission. 168 00:18:12,190 --> 00:18:19,210 I never do. I'm very, very lucky with my supervisor because I all of my supervisions start with, well, I've done this. 169 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:27,190 And he goes, okay, then, you know, and I think that possibly comes with the confidence, the maturity that we were talking about earlier. 170 00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:29,650 That's sort of. Okay, well, I, I, 171 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:39,730 I'm used to having to run my entire life and having to organise this and spin lots and lots of plates because I had to do that throughout my career. 172 00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:46,270 So therefore, I don't ask people if I can do something, I just go ahead and do it. 173 00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:57,310 Yeah, so agreeing with Laura on lots of things. What's really clear from what you're saying is that there are a number of things that as a 174 00:18:57,310 --> 00:19:06,010 mature PGR and somebody who's been out in the world of work for a period of time and that, 175 00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:10,360 you know, there you bring things that are incredibly useful to the experience. 176 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:19,990 You know, you talked about that kind of confidence and the ability to ask questions and to kind of develop your independence as a researcher. 177 00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:23,290 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You know what it's about? 178 00:19:23,290 --> 00:19:24,950 I think it's about skill. 179 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:33,850 That's what I think is, you know, kind of for me, the difference between between doing it now and doing it and not having done it. 180 00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:38,200 And so I think is like managing a project. 181 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:49,640 You know, it's like managing a really complicated, multi lateral, multi faceted project, which is basically me. 182 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,740 I'm on my own with some support from the supervisors. 183 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:58,070 I like that idea of going into the supervision and saying, I've done this. 184 00:19:58,070 --> 00:20:03,950 And that's a really positive way to do it, is that, you know, you say this is where I'm at and this is what I've got to do. 185 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:06,470 And this is these are the successes I've had since we last met. 186 00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:14,420 And these are the struggles and the questions that I'd like you to help me with, rather than waiting for the supervisor to start the conversation. 187 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:15,470 That's really good. 188 00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:25,670 But, yeah, the idea of of, you know, being able to you know, through my other experience in my life, my varied experience, I know how to plan things. 189 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:30,410 I know how to schedule things. I know how to fill time. 190 00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:38,120 If I'm waiting for something, I know how to manage the information. 191 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:44,140 I mean, a lot of it, particularly in history. So I did a history PhD. It really is about managing information. 192 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:48,530 It's about managing my secondary reading and my primary you know the sources that 193 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:52,910 I'm looking at in the archives and being able to handle all of that material. 194 00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:55,820 All of that is stuff I think that one gets in life. 195 00:20:55,820 --> 00:21:03,320 You know, that if you've got some experience as a person out with a job or with a family or both, then, you know, 196 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:11,240 you gain that experience and you can then bring that to you in the way that somebody is in their 20s, maybe can't yet. 197 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,220 Since then, I think I bring a whole lot of skills to it. 198 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:22,910 But actually, I find I work on academic stuff is probably quite different to how I work on things I've worked on professionally. 199 00:21:22,910 --> 00:21:29,300 It's very seldom you do such a big project professionally and I've done some research and evaluation and that's similar. 200 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:38,810 But it's rare that I do this sort of work professionally. So I'd say that actually there's kind of yes, there are skills I bring. 201 00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:43,550 And probably the thing that brings me to student is perhaps a lack of panic there. 202 00:21:43,550 --> 00:21:49,310 Are there more there are bigger disasters in my life. There are bigger problems in my life when things go a bit wrong with the PhD 203 00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:55,220 when things are a bit tricky with the PhD relatively, it matters a lot less than other things get bigger by life. 204 00:21:55,220 --> 00:22:00,470 So which is possibly not what supervisors want to hear. But I kind of like my PhD I kind of want it to go. 205 00:22:00,470 --> 00:22:03,890 Well, I want to do all of that, but it's not the be all and end of my life. 206 00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:12,560 And it can't be because, you know, I have other people in my life who are in the end more important, which is sad but true. 207 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:22,050 What I would say is I have found it slightly difficult because I have a way of working academically, which tends to be very intense. 208 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:26,660 I tend to I'm I'm definitely someone who used to say doesn't stop moving til the ground, 209 00:22:26,660 --> 00:22:32,150 starts shaking that I really I like to very much work towards something, but then have a very intense period. 210 00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:37,910 And that's not always compatible with having a family life and working part time as a Ph.D. 211 00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:42,050 So that's something that I've had to learn to do as a mature student, 212 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:48,560 which is different from how I worked when I was in my 20s, did my undergraduate or did my master's degree. 213 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,900 And I could just completely focus on a period, on a piece of writing I was doing. 214 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,720 And I just can't do that because I have two kids in school. 215 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,120 So there is I've actually had to learn to work in different ways in which you're a student. 216 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:06,980 But yes, like I bring bring a whole lot of kind of life experience to it, which helps. 217 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:12,170 Yeah, I really I really identify with what Laura is saying. 218 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:17,450 But one thing for me was actually working at the same time as studying and I found 219 00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:23,660 I was wearing two hats and I actually found that really difficult to juggle. 220 00:23:23,660 --> 00:23:29,240 My professional life was writing reports and communicating in a certain way, 221 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:35,840 and the writing that I was doing was very different to the writing I was doing as part of my PhD. 222 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:44,780 And that became quite a struggle for me, actually, because you were having to adopt these two personas and write in two very different styles. 223 00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:49,490 So you do need to be very organised. I think this is something that Ghee was saying. 224 00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:56,420 And, you know, don't underestimate the fact that you are trying to manage all these things and have a family life on top of that. 225 00:23:56,420 --> 00:24:03,050 So, you know, it does take a lot of organisation. So if you have project management skills, certainly that goes a long way towards it. 226 00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:07,850 But I do think that mature students have slightly different requirements. 227 00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:14,570 For me, it was the kind of the academic writing side of things and, you know, just needing a bit more support on that front. 228 00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:20,510 So we've talked about the benefits and the strengths that you bring as a mature PGR 229 00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:25,340 What about the challenges? What about what are the barriers that you faced? 230 00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:37,310 And certainly one thing I found difficult is having had gone from when I was a full time younger student, 231 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:49,000 is the way that academia's moved on and things like methodologies and sort of understanding of particular. 232 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,760 Themes and ways of working, especially within history or you just have no idea, I mean, 233 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,310 I'm somebody who did my computers with just about coming in obviously they coming in when I was at school. 234 00:25:00,310 --> 00:25:07,180 But when I was an undergraduate, I did all my work handwritten. Everything was longhand when I did my masters. 235 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:13,120 Yes, I did wordprocess my essays, but we didn't have a university email addresses or anything like that. 236 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,230 So, you know, we're talking about that sort of gap. 237 00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:24,130 So it's not necessarily technology I usde technology the whole way through my career, but understanding the sort of, OK, 238 00:25:24,130 --> 00:25:32,140 this is how we've now decided that you structure a piece of writing and you need to make sure that you included this stuff and the other. 239 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:44,110 I think sometimes people assume, you know, what that is and somebody's coming straight through would do because they've done an undergraduate degree, 240 00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:48,370 especially in history quite recently, probably in other subjects 241 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:53,650 So history is my experience and I don't know that. 242 00:25:53,650 --> 00:26:00,610 So that, in a way has been a barrier and you just have to go, OK, I have no idea what you're talking about. 243 00:26:00,610 --> 00:26:09,370 Please, can you help me you know? Occasionally you get the slightly taken aback look, but most people are happy to point you in the right direction. 244 00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:16,630 Yeah, I agree with most people have said and I think there are just a number of things I've noted here. 245 00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:28,150 And the supervisors I've had have been really understanding of me as an older student because they understood that there be other life commitments, 246 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:35,200 family work. So I don't I found them very supportive. 247 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:46,250 And despite everything that they have pushed things through quite gently in many ways, for me it was the challenges definitely of juggling work. 248 00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:54,040 I was working full time, so every weekend was basically doing the research. 249 00:26:54,040 --> 00:27:01,570 So for me, it's been it was tough the first two years getting assignments done. 250 00:27:01,570 --> 00:27:10,720 And then when the research itself took over, what I found was that that was much more within my remit to deal with timescales. 251 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:17,190 So that was that was great. I could actually plan that out, thinking of my work commitments. 252 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:21,030 For me, I was as I said, I was an international student, so for me, 253 00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:29,190 I struggled with time because there was a time difference between the UK and where I was living. 254 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:37,980 So that wasn't just the case of being a mature student. I was juggling work and dealing with time differences when I wanted to contact my supervisors. 255 00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:47,700 But as I said, again, they were very understanding and some of them were even messaging me over weekends because I worked on the Sunday. 256 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:55,680 The other thing for me was writing and I couldn't agree more with Kensa and that for me my writing style was very different. 257 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:01,920 And that was something that the supervisors commented on. And I reflected on this thinking. 258 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,480 As a younger Tracey, I wouldn't have written like this. 259 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:17,700 I wouldn't have written so confidently about my approach and my perspective, because I that, she said, was a very individual engaging style. 260 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:23,690 And I don't think I would have done that or had the confidence to do that. The younger me. 261 00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:29,450 And also for the research itself, I actually don't think I could have done this research because this has come over 262 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:35,180 time experience in my profession and within that particular job at that time. 263 00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:40,850 So the questions developed out of my work in practise in my life. 264 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:51,440 Yes. So the barriers, I think there were the biggest one was juggling time for me and the distance with big time time difference. 265 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:57,710 But it was actually asking people for help and the right people that I struggled with. 266 00:28:57,710 --> 00:29:07,640 Sometimes I wouldn't know who to go to, whereas if I was on campus or perhaps come through Exeter as an undergraduate, 267 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,050 I might have known quicker where to go for advice on who to ask. 268 00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:16,420 But most of the time my supervisors have been very long suffering. 269 00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:22,390 Yeah, there are lots of things coming out there about being or not being a part of the academic community, 270 00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:26,890 and I wondered if we if we could spend some time thinking or talking about that, 271 00:29:26,890 --> 00:29:37,650 what kind of whether or not you felt welcomed into the academic community, what the what the barriers were again. 272 00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:42,650 I think one thing I would caution against is more think about people who perhaps think listening to this thinking thing, 273 00:29:42,650 --> 00:29:46,890 one is what worth thinking about. What subject I wanted to do 274 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:53,260 I did think carefully about which university to attend, and partly because I have the experience. 275 00:29:53,260 --> 00:30:03,330 Someone else I could very well who did a of doctoral partnership as a mature student with the university that was some distance away. 276 00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:09,270 And I think that creates difficulties in terms of being able to contact people, 277 00:30:09,270 --> 00:30:14,730 but it also creates difficulties and perhaps perhaps take it sometimes opportunity to think. 278 00:30:14,730 --> 00:30:22,920 And so one reason I wanted to come to Exeter was because they had a strength and a community of people working in the period I want to work in, 279 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,710 but also because they were close enough, for example, 280 00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:29,010 that I could get involved in teaching because that's something I really wanted to make sure I teach. 281 00:30:29,010 --> 00:30:36,630 My Ph.D. will spend some time practising teaching, and I was able to do that because I live close enough of course the things going online. 282 00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:38,730 It's made it much easier to be part of 283 00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:47,370 which has been wonderful and allowed me to really work meet more of the other students and staff working on similar periods to me, 284 00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:50,250 which perhaps I couldn't see, but I knew they would be there. 285 00:30:50,250 --> 00:30:57,690 I couldn't kind of be there at five o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon to actually go to seminars, meet them where I was being invited to do that. 286 00:30:57,690 --> 00:31:02,040 So previously I think that was a barrier with things that time, your seminars and so on. 287 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:10,140 But I do think, you know, when you're thinking about where to go and look for your supervisors, the right people, that happens. 288 00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:17,310 If I think about that, do you think about that community and also what other things you want to do as well as do the research, 289 00:31:17,310 --> 00:31:22,230 whether being close enough to be involved in the department in that way is important as well? 290 00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:29,430 Of course, funding is can be a big control as well, yeah, a slight kind of double edge thing here, which I think is, you know, 291 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:40,300 my grey hair and the fact that I look like, you know, sometimes I get respect from people just for that. 292 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:48,630 Sometimes because I'm an older white male, some people will give me respect, which maybe I don't deserve. 293 00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:59,280 And that is on the whole, it's a good thing for me anyway. However, I sometimes I think I've had experience of younger academics, you know, 294 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:10,710 even quite senior academics who are perhaps slightly uncomfortable with having somebody who is a lot older than them, who is, you know, 295 00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:17,280 at that but at that junior level, because there is a very strong hierarchy within the university, you know, 296 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:27,450 undergraduate masters, the professor, etc., etc. There are these very clear strata within the university. 297 00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:35,800 And if there's somebody, you know, on a higher stratum than me who is a lot younger than me, then sometimes I think they struggle. 298 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,190 I don't think I struggle on the whole. I don't think I do. 299 00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:45,890 But I think I've experienced I get older or younger academics who who don't feel quite comfortable in my. 300 00:32:45,890 --> 00:32:49,280 And I don't know what one can do about that. And equally, you know, 301 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:58,400 lots of other academics and other members of staff and students who are perfectly comfortable with the case of 30 something years older 302 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,820 but some people do struggle with it. I totally agree. 303 00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:05,630 I think possibly the thing that mature age, 304 00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:14,900 mature age students bring to the PGR community and maybe the university community as a whole is that we have this experience, 305 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,480 this larger experience outside academia. 306 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:26,750 And we are totally used to having to deal with people at all stages of their life and all stages of their own various journeys, 307 00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:33,950 and therefore actually dealing with a supervisor who might be 20 years younger than us. 308 00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:35,060 That's not my personal experience. 309 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:44,090 But, you know, or people who have just got their kids who are far younger than us or people that who are far older than us, 310 00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:49,850 doesn't faze us perhaps as much as it would do to somebody in their very early twenties. 311 00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:55,040 And I wondered how that works for you, Tracey, because we're talking about kind of living relatively close to the campus, 312 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,790 whereas, you know, for quite a bit of your studies, you've been on the other side of the world. 313 00:33:59,790 --> 00:34:03,260 So what's that sense of community been like for you? 314 00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:15,920 Yeah, I think for me the challenge was actually having engagement with the student body and my fellow researchers as a community. 315 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,850 And at the time, although we have good technology that wasn't open to me until the pandemic, 316 00:34:22,850 --> 00:34:31,280 which you and I have discussed before, the actually the pandemic opened more opportunities for me. 317 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:51,440 And I feel that following my courses and access and seminars, conferences, going online, I feel I've got much more community with fellow researchers, 318 00:34:51,440 --> 00:35:00,320 whether that's younger researchers or not, because I certainly meet many more researches online. 319 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:06,230 In the last year than I did the previously, so I think it isn't a case of distance, 320 00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:12,020 it's a case of opportunity and access and thinking of it much more broadly. 321 00:35:12,020 --> 00:35:17,060 Yeah, I'm really glad you used the word community, because that's made me think about that again. 322 00:35:17,060 --> 00:35:28,310 And I'm kind of thinking that I really have felt I did I didn't feel very much that I was part of the the big university community, 323 00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:35,060 which is I mean, you know, it's an enormous community and it does it's not I mean, when I was an undergraduate just to go back there again, 324 00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:39,680 you know, there were a hundred students in one building studying drama at university. 325 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,780 And we were completely a family. And in Exeter, 326 00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:51,410 there are over a thousand students doing history as undergraduates and they are 327 00:35:51,410 --> 00:35:55,880 all scattered across the place and there's no sense of them being one community. 328 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:03,740 So and I think Exeter is a big university. And I think it's it's it's it's hard to pin down where the community is. 329 00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:12,020 But I always thought I did feel, you know, I was part of you know, I was I spent a lot of time in the library. 330 00:36:12,020 --> 00:36:23,240 I was kind of I would often eat on campus in the day time in and out of the guild, you know, making I mean, I was on university challenge team, 331 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:32,390 we didnt get on the TV, but even, you know, the kind of lots of things that made me feel as if I was as if I was part of this big group of people. 332 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:37,700 And I think that that for me really made it work. 333 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,600 And I think I had a again, I had a confidence about that. 334 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,580 I mean, I think that's a word that people have used. 335 00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:52,550 I had a confidence about joining things and going up to people and saying, hello, what can I join in, you know, that kind of stuff. 336 00:36:52,550 --> 00:37:02,180 But that I didn't have when I was if I just want to think about how some of this difference what you want to get out of the PhD 337 00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:08,510 you know, are you doing it professionally to move yourself forward professionally, and you know where that's going to go? 338 00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:18,170 Are you doing it to actually change careers? Are you doing as an experience to develop yourself intellectually, to develop new insights, new research, 339 00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:24,260 in which case that kind of social aspect of being part of a university community can be really important 340 00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:29,630 because you want to open your mind to new things and to meet new people and to be part of that or like, 341 00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:35,480 say, if you if it's a much more this is a professional step within my own career, developing my own skills. 342 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:42,260 You may not actually feel that need because you are already have that community within your professional practise. 343 00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:46,340 So I'm probably somebody whose perhaps move on that a bit 344 00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:55,520 I think when I first came back to do my PhD, very much so this is something that was part of that myself, actually within my career. 345 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,690 But I wasn't very clear about where I wanted what I want after 346 00:37:59,690 --> 00:38:04,380 And if I actually I'm still not and I still get lots of different ideas. But actually, let's go back, in fact. 347 00:38:04,380 --> 00:38:11,500 So I assumed I would never want to come back in academia after my PhD because I thought it was 348 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:19,450 Possibly sometimesa hit horribly competitive for very small rewards and not perhaps that collegiate in some ways, 349 00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:27,310 and I didn't really feel that was the kind of society I'm working. But actually, I really loved to kind of, you know, teaching and studying again. 350 00:38:27,310 --> 00:38:31,540 And, you know, maybe there are opportunities for me that grateful to be part time. 351 00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:36,250 I've got years to worry about what I'm going to do afterwards. I and try lots of things in the meantime. 352 00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:41,920 That's also what Iwanted to do was to give myself that space to have a PhD part time 353 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:48,010 So I knew I had some income coming in and some work, but also to give myself space to explore new things. 354 00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:54,130 So I suppose why you're coming to do the PhD might impact what other things you to look for and what you really need. 355 00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:57,940 I was just listening to to what Laura said and smiling. 356 00:38:57,940 --> 00:39:05,050 I came I mentioned earlier I came into to do my PhD because it was to solve a problem I had in my career. 357 00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:08,290 And I was doing very well in my career. It was going great. 358 00:39:08,290 --> 00:39:14,260 There was no question of me going into academia, you know, and I was going to go back into my job and I'd be better informed. 359 00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:22,270 Well, that was just rubbish, because doing a PhD changes you as a person in lots of really good ways. 360 00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:29,830 And doing it part time, I think has helped me to kind of compare my working life with my academic life. 361 00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:34,630 And when you're in your 50s, people don't have any great expectations of you to go into academia. 362 00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:40,720 They think you're going to stick with your life in practise. And actually, I've just completely fallen in love with academia. 363 00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:48,700 I'm due to submit my PhD in September, and I've already been successful in securing a permanent lectureship, 364 00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:52,810 which I started in the New Year in Liverpool, and I just couldn't be happier. 365 00:39:52,810 --> 00:40:00,910 I'm a completely different person. I now have a totally different life and I just feel like I've come home, you know, 366 00:40:00,910 --> 00:40:06,430 and I like being in consultancy, but I'm just absolutely delighted with the way things have worked out. 367 00:40:06,430 --> 00:40:14,350 Anddoing a PhD has given me skills and experience and confidence and all the things that I didn't have before. 368 00:40:14,350 --> 00:40:19,990 And that's why I would just say to people, just go for it, because you really don't know where it's going to take you. 369 00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:30,400 That's just completely fantastic. Catherine, congratulations. And talking about kind of, you know, going onto an academic career. 370 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:38,260 It's a really nice Segway actually, into what started this conversation, which was about career support for mature students, you know, 371 00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:40,900 who aren't kind of haven't gone through that, I don't know, 372 00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:47,080 conveyor belt of education without without getting off and doing professional work and so on. 373 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:57,280 Don't know if we could speak a bit about that, about kind of what support you actually need as mature PGRs as you already have had careers 374 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,830 who have sought a PhD as a professional development opportunity or as a career change? 375 00:41:02,830 --> 00:41:13,390 You know what? What is it that you need that's different? I can I can start this off because I'm slightly to blame for the entirety of this podcast. 376 00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:21,370 I have having been a teacher in secondary schools, I have absolutely no desire to go back to that. 377 00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:28,690 Not dissing teaching as a career at all. I have the utmost respect for my former colleagues, especially the work they've done in the last year. 378 00:41:28,690 --> 00:41:32,920 But it's not something I want to return to. So I'm that's OK. 379 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,360 I'm in my second year of my Ph.D. stage. I need to decide what I'm going to do afterwards. 380 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,820 I need to start looking at options. 381 00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:51,610 So I'm going to as many I spent the sort of spring term this year going to as many careers seminars and talks and so on as possible and got very 382 00:41:51,610 --> 00:42:01,510 frustrated very early on because there was just this assumption that people looking for work were aged 22 and had an undergraduate degree. 383 00:42:01,510 --> 00:42:10,810 And I actually went to one to where the person said he was, you know, the Exeter graduate who they'd got in to do the talk, 384 00:42:10,810 --> 00:42:15,850 said, oh, yes, and you can make senior management by the time you're 25. 385 00:42:15,850 --> 00:42:20,080 And I, you know, had had we actually physically been in the same room, 386 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:27,340 I think I'd probably having said I'm mature and have grown up and what I probably would have thrown something at him. 387 00:42:27,340 --> 00:42:34,720 There is just this assumption that people looking for work or have just finished university and have no 388 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:41,800 experience and are looking for a career and they just want money and they want to live in central London. 389 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:50,860 And we all know everyone, undergraduates, schoolteachers, children and teenagers in school, everybody knows that is not true. 390 00:42:50,860 --> 00:42:56,230 So why is this still this fantasy still being peddled in career seminars? 391 00:42:56,230 --> 00:43:03,100 And I didn't challenge him in that one. But then I went to another seminar probably a few days later. 392 00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:09,520 And actually I did turn around to go hi person in my mid forties here who's had one career. 393 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:18,000 Doesn't know what they want to do with their life after the PhD, please don't assume this, and actually got a really positive response from that. 394 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:24,550 But but yes, there is this. You know, I think. 395 00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:27,670 Maybe that's that's something that we need to do as mature students, 396 00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:31,990 but there are a lot of mature students as we've discovered and we need to challenge these 397 00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:38,180 stereotypes and say and also let alone with the way that society has changed, 398 00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:42,460 spot the historian here, the way society has changed over the last 50 years, 399 00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:48,580 people do not go into jobs at the age of 16 and stick with that one company until they're 65. 400 00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:53,740 Many, many people have either changed jobs or change careers partway through their lives. 401 00:43:53,740 --> 00:44:06,340 And I think that's hopefully careers services and whoever will start to realise this and start to sort of tailoring things to, 402 00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:12,880 you know, maybe we need to go and ask for it rather than expecting it to be handed this information to be handed to us on a plate. 403 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:19,940 But I think that people need to start catering for a wider range of needs. 404 00:44:19,940 --> 00:44:26,680 That sounds like actually the university's career department need to do some targeted sessions or or a theme stream, 405 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,600 which is about mature students, not necessarily only PGRs 406 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,870 but, you know, students of in any level or department or whatever who are, you know, 407 00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:43,690 who are kind of coming in again after after experience family and work. 408 00:44:43,690 --> 00:44:50,920 And you know how that is different and what they you know how it is, because the fact is, we've all got a hell of a lot to offer. 409 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,910 You know what? It's just a question of finding the right. 410 00:44:54,910 --> 00:45:00,160 The people who are looking for that stuff that we've got to offer, you know, and we are. 411 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,400 Yeah, we're great. I agree obviously with Ghee we are wonderful. 412 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:12,400 And people would be lucky to us in their career, I think also because if we're dissing the career service providers, who arent here to reply 413 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:20,170 they could also be missing because I know some of the conversation in amongst issues more broadly is about things like this 414 00:45:20,170 --> 00:45:28,690 terrible phrase of atl-ac the kind of people who are doing PhDs who aren't then planning to go on to an academic career and obviously from people, 415 00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:36,250 the students or from people who've done some of those other careers and therefore perhaps have some useful insights into that conversation. 416 00:45:36,250 --> 00:45:49,150 Or, you know, they could be the university could be exploiting some of our links into kind of industry and into other other areas of the subject. 417 00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:57,520 And it might perhaps be to call back something we spoke about earlier in that subject where sometimes some of the other 418 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:04,450 people who work in department have gone through perhaps more traditional route have stayed in academia their entire career. 419 00:46:04,450 --> 00:46:14,560 And actually therefore, that kind of wider understanding, that of those uproots is sometimes not perhaps there to the same extent. 420 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:20,170 And that's something that the that could can usefully not just mature students, 421 00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:27,790 but by setting it is more of a conversation and the way we can the community with an extra can contribute and work together. 422 00:46:27,790 --> 00:46:31,930 This could be something that other students can benefit from as well. 423 00:46:31,930 --> 00:46:39,580 And the people working in these career service jobs might benefit from some of our expense. 424 00:46:39,580 --> 00:46:41,570 Just very quickly, Laura you;re just spot on. 425 00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:47,320 I and I think the amount of times I've been in an academic situation and I've seen academics with loads of experience who don't know, 426 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:53,650 for example, how to run a meeting, who don't know how to handle a seminar, you know, who only have one way of doing things. 427 00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:58,750 And that's what they've been doing for 20, 30 years within an academic context. 428 00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:03,700 One thing I'd say is perhaps sometimes the nature of this being something that the university 429 00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:09,700 needs to do for students to recognise that if the university is a community, 430 00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:15,250 a kind of academic collegiate community, then this is something we do together in collaboration. 431 00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:21,130 This isn't something the university needs to do for students as a kind of someone lower down the hierarchy. 432 00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:29,560 Perhaps this is this is a this is a we work together at which, you know, I know some people do work collaboratively and that's true. 433 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,730 But I think that can we talk a little bit earlier on about sometimes that that 434 00:47:33,730 --> 00:47:37,690 hierarchical relationship that can creep in and that that that is a problem, 435 00:47:37,690 --> 00:47:41,950 I think. And that perhaps is very here. You're right. 436 00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:47,470 And I think that working in collaboration and that reciprocity is really important because one of the 437 00:47:47,470 --> 00:47:55,450 big philosophies of the way that I work is no one knows better what PGRs need than PGRs themselves. 438 00:47:55,450 --> 00:48:03,640 And so I think it's really important for us to working in collaboration, to work together on this and to wrap up. 439 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,740 I want to think or imagine that, you know, 440 00:48:05,740 --> 00:48:14,320 there's somebody listening to this podcast who is considering doing a research degree as a mature student or is just about to start. 441 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:23,890 What advice would you give them? What do you wish that you knew at the point at which you started or were considering applying? 442 00:48:23,890 --> 00:48:28,870 It's not so much of what I wish I'd known better, what I have come to realise, 443 00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:35,790 and that is don't be put off by thinking, oh God, I'm a mature student, what on earth my doing with my life? 444 00:48:35,790 --> 00:48:41,860 I suddenly take three or four years out to do a Ph.D. Just go ahead and do it. 445 00:48:41,860 --> 00:48:45,550 You can have whatever whatever life journey you've been on. 446 00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:52,390 You have acquired the skills and the knowledge and the ability to do a Ph.D. and you know, 447 00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:57,640 whether that juggling lots and lots of different things and commitments plus full time study, 448 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,920 whether that's juggling a full time job and part time study, you have learnt those things. 449 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,930 You have learnt those skills. And what you need to do is just think I can do this. 450 00:49:07,930 --> 00:49:12,670 The support is there and I will learn so much about myself. 451 00:49:12,670 --> 00:49:17,740 And maybe it's not just about learning about yourself. I will gain something. 452 00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:22,840 And actually I do have the right to do this for me. 453 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:28,120 So I would say then don't be put off by thinking it's just something that people who 454 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:34,480 are very brainy in their mid twenties do not describe myself as very brainy either. 455 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:43,270 But yeah, just go for it. Yeah, I mirror some of what Kensa's said, so I just jotting down a couple of things. 456 00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:49,420 And I think the main thing that people said to me about it was a marathon, not a sprint. 457 00:49:49,420 --> 00:50:01,690 I go at my workplace or life at like a hundred miles an hour or a hundred and forty kilometres an hour along the Dubai Abu Dhabi highway. 458 00:50:01,690 --> 00:50:08,230 And I was still expecting to do that with my doing the doctorate. 459 00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:15,730 And it was only on reflection recently that I recognised that if it was a marathon and that 460 00:50:15,730 --> 00:50:24,940 a different process and different pace and then also mirroring what Kensa had said, 461 00:50:24,940 --> 00:50:36,250 the word I put down was skills, is that I have acquired so many amazing skills during this journey, 462 00:50:36,250 --> 00:50:44,290 and that's through my workplace and life as well as through this research opportunity. 463 00:50:44,290 --> 00:50:50,680 So I think if anybody was debating whether to do it, I'd say absolutely, 464 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:56,950 because you learn so much on the way and incorporate a lot of your life skills. 465 00:50:56,950 --> 00:51:02,980 I was just going to completely echo what the others have said I think that it's much better that I can so i'll just agree with them on that. 466 00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:10,600 Ang one point I was going to raise which hasn't kind of come up some where in the podcast was about doing it in combination with having a young family, 467 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,070 and that I have two boys who are now just eight and five. 468 00:51:15,070 --> 00:51:23,770 And so I started when they're three and five. And obviously that of many mature students have perhaps caring responsibilities as do younger students, 469 00:51:23,770 --> 00:51:29,700 but actually a part-time PhD combines really well with having a family because there is flexibility about where you fit the work. 470 00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:38,110 And so that can really that can work quite well in that I work much more intense because of the times I can take the time off to the holidays. 471 00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:46,120 So if you're thinking will having a young family prevent me from doing a PhDit can actually be a type of work that fits pretty well with it. 472 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,110 But I think what's been inspiring this podcast has been seeing how yes, 473 00:51:50,110 --> 00:51:54,280 go in with a clear idea about why you want to be doing the PhD be clear about why you want to do that topic, 474 00:51:54,280 --> 00:52:01,570 about what you really value about that topic and you know about why you've chosen to do it, where you've chosen to do it. 475 00:52:01,570 --> 00:52:07,000 But I think what to expect expects that that change, that growth you have to PhD. 476 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:13,690 And so don't be surprised if it goes in a different direction as you work through and that you change as you're doing it. 477 00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:18,700 But, yeah, I would agree with people. I think that's it. But I have been glad to do it now. 478 00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:25,330 You know, I wasn't in the place where my kids were very small babies. It wouldn't it would be more much more difficult. 479 00:52:25,330 --> 00:52:29,350 And I don't know whether I'd have come to my twenties. 480 00:52:29,350 --> 00:52:37,570 I would probably have done a different PhD. So, you know, it it fits people at different stages. 481 00:52:37,570 --> 00:52:42,760 Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to agree with everybody else. But one thing I would say is be kind to yourself. 482 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:49,000 My supervisor often says to me to stop being so hard on myself, he reckons I'm my own worst enemy. 483 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,320 And I think sometimes we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves as mature students. 484 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:59,920 So just something to be aware of. I also think we shouldn't stereotype ourselves, OK, we're mature students. 485 00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:04,870 But, you know, I think we've seen today that actually it doesn't make a lot of difference what age you are. 486 00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:08,740 We all deserve to be there and we've all earned the right to be there. 487 00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:14,500 And just to reiterate what other people said, just be prepared to come out as a different person at the end of it. 488 00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:22,570 Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's one of the things I think I want to say is, is that it's it's not for everyone. 489 00:53:22,570 --> 00:53:28,650 I think that some. That should be said to anyone who's thinking about going to university at any level, 490 00:53:28,650 --> 00:53:38,340 if they're a 17 year old thinking about an undergraduate degree or if they're thinkin

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In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Dr. Bice Maiguashca, Associate Professor in Politics about preparing for your viva in HASS subjects. This is the second in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast Transcript   1 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:15,800 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:32,520 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:40,180 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens, this is the second episode in a series where our guest host, 4 00:00:40,180 --> 00:00:46,470 Dr. Edward Mills, talks to academics and examiners all about the viva process. 5 00:00:46,470 --> 00:00:50,040 In this episode, Edward is talking to Bice Maiguashca 6 00:00:50,040 --> 00:01:00,000 who is an associate professor in the politics department at the University of Exeter, giving her experience and advice as an examiner, 7 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,950 as a supervisor, 8 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:11,250 and reiterating some of the really excellent advice and support she's given to our PGRs over the years through our Preparing for your viva workshops. 9 00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:20,490 So it's over to you Ed. hello. Today I am speaking with Bice Maiguashca, who is a professor in the politics department, 10 00:01:20,490 --> 00:01:29,280 about her experiences as an internal and external and also as a non examining independent chair. 11 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,410 OK, so could you start just by saying a little bit about yourself, please? 12 00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:44,130 Sure. I'm an associate professor in the politics department and my research, very broadly speaking, 13 00:01:44,130 --> 00:01:50,850 is on the politics of resistance and more specifically on left politics. 14 00:01:50,850 --> 00:01:56,910 So left social movements as well as left politics in Britain. 15 00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:03,930 And I tend to approach the subject from a feminist perspective. So that's my academic sort of area of expertise. 16 00:02:03,930 --> 00:02:09,450 And so what can I ask? What's your experience as an examiner then of PhD thesis? 17 00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:12,870 I have both taken on both roles. 18 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:14,850 Well, actually all three roles. 19 00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:27,840 I have been the supervisor, a supervisor to ten students, 10 PhD students, and I have been both internal examiners and external examiners. 20 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:33,600 And in addition, I've also played the role of independent chair on numerous occasions. 21 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,650 I suppose the first thing to ask is a question that I've asked everybody I've spoken to thus far, 22 00:02:37,650 --> 00:02:44,430 which is when you're examining a PhD thesis as an internal and external examiner, 23 00:02:44,430 --> 00:02:49,120 what do you do when you when you get a thesis in front of you for the first time? 24 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:57,270 Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing you do is you decide when you're going to at what point you're going to 25 00:02:57,270 --> 00:03:03,270 read it and you want to make sure when you do that you have several hours ahead of you. 26 00:03:03,270 --> 00:03:08,280 In other words, at least in my experience, in my view, you can't read a thesis 27 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,230 or at least I can't read the thesis over several days in small chunks. 28 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:24,510 So I pick up the thesis and I make sure that I have three to four or five hours to focus on it, to make myself comfortable with something. 29 00:03:24,510 --> 00:03:31,770 And I read the introduction and the conclusion, and this may be very individual, 30 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:39,780 idiosyncratic thing to do, but for me, I need to have a general map of the thesis before I dive in 31 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:45,780 So I want to have a sense of what the story line is. 32 00:03:45,780 --> 00:03:52,950 In other words, a thesis for me and for no academic. is never read sort of as a myth, as a mystery novel, if you like, 33 00:03:52,950 --> 00:03:59,220 where the the the the plot line emerges at the end or the punch line emerges at the end. 34 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:06,870 We like to know what's going on, what the aims of the thesis are, what the argument is going to be foregrounded at the beginning. 35 00:04:06,870 --> 00:04:14,820 So I read the introduction. I then read the conclusion. So I have a sense of the both, if you like, the bookends of the thesis. 36 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:20,220 I have an overall map of the thesis in my mind, and then I dive into Chapter one, 37 00:04:20,220 --> 00:04:26,520 start looking for story line as well as the evidence which is going to sustain it. 38 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,570 Reading the introduction, the conclusion of the thesis. Yes, some examiners may do that. 39 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:38,190 Some some may not. But it's interesting to hear you talk about the the storyline of a thesis. 40 00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:40,710 Could you say a bit more about what you mean by the story line? 41 00:04:40,710 --> 00:04:50,430 Yeah, OK, so I think it's very important that the introduction of a thesis does four things and they all add up. 42 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:58,020 If you like the story line in some sense of the thesis, the first thing that the introduction needs to do, 43 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:08,970 in my view, is establish the puzzle or the problem or the research question that the student is trying to tackle. 44 00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:16,430 So what is the thesis about and what questions is it trying to answer? 45 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:24,140 The second aspect, if you like, of this storyline has to do with the answer to that question. 46 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:30,960 In other words, what is the argument? Of the PhD 47 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,620 What is the thesis? That the student is putting forward. 48 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:47,300 So that's the second bit, the third part of the storyline is why that question needs to be answered in academic terms. 49 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:56,630 What is important about that question? Another way of putting this part of the storyline is to call it the rationale of the thesis. 50 00:05:56,630 --> 00:06:00,950 What is the rationale of the thesis? And you can have two types of rationale. 51 00:06:00,950 --> 00:06:09,840 You can have an academic rationale. In other words, there is a gap in the literature or perhaps there is a gap in the literature. 52 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:19,460 But this is an important question and hasn't been studied. And the second form of rationale that might be relevant, particularly politics students, 53 00:06:19,460 --> 00:06:25,700 perhaps to others, is that there may be a political or social rationale for doing the thesis. 54 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:34,290 In other words, it's tackling a particularly important political or social problem that begs to be solved. 55 00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:47,300 And the fourth thing that I think a reader needs to find in the introduction is an explanation of how they proceeded to do the research. 56 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:52,300 In other words, what's otherwise called the methodology of the thesis. 57 00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:59,760 So just to recap, in the introduction of the thesis, the reader is looking for four things. 58 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,420 What is the puzzle? What is the argument of the thesis? 59 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:10,150 Why does the puzzle and argument matter? In other words, contribution to knowledge? 60 00:07:10,150 --> 00:07:19,810 And finally, how has the student undertaken this research and why have they made the choices that they have in terms of methodology? 61 00:07:19,810 --> 00:07:32,200 Those four pillars hold up thesis in many respects and need to be foregrounded in the introduction and then perhaps revisited in the conclusion. 62 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,860 I don't know how you wrote your introduction, but does that sound familiar to you? 63 00:07:35,860 --> 00:07:44,590 That sounds very familiar, particularly given the advice that a lot of people are given to do their introduction last. 64 00:07:44,590 --> 00:07:50,560 Right. OK, certainly that might sound slightly odd in the. 65 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,730 Does that sound odd? This this may or may not make it into the final cut? I think I've heard people say it before, but I don't think it's realistic. 66 00:07:57,730 --> 00:08:09,850 So what I would say is that your the introduction of all the chapters in your thesis is the one that perhaps is rewritten and evolves the most. 67 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:13,450 In other words, I think one can't write it at the end. 68 00:08:13,450 --> 00:08:20,030 One has to write it at the beginning because it's usually provides the student with a roadmap of what they intend to do. 69 00:08:20,030 --> 00:08:26,830 And I always get my students to turn their research proposals or proposals into some form of introduction. 70 00:08:26,830 --> 00:08:32,800 As they expand on the puzzle, they expand on the rationale and they expand on the methodology, 71 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,580 even if they're not entirely sure about the argument itself, 72 00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:47,320 because they still have to do the research, if you understand what I mean, and they then go back and revisit the introduction as they move forward. 73 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,970 So I think there are multiple iterations of an introduction. 74 00:08:51,970 --> 00:09:01,480 Go back to it at the end of the thesis when you finish the whole draft and yes, indeed, one then goes and edits it, the final draft, so to speak. 75 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,650 At the end of the writing of your thesis, you need a copy, if you like, 76 00:09:05,650 --> 00:09:10,810 a draft of the introduction at the beginning as well to give you focus and direction. 77 00:09:10,810 --> 00:09:18,610 Yeah, I think that's very fair. Actually, a lot of my introduction was written in the first year of the thesis but was then quite substantially revised. 78 00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:21,760 Once the argument had become clearer. 79 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:31,360 I suppose to an extent the kind of solution part of your four stage, your four pillars might be the bit that needs to be rewritten most. 80 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:39,010 But that's a that's a very good point, actually. Thank you. What contact do the internal and external examiners have before the viva? 81 00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:43,420 And what do they what do they have to produce before the viva starts? 82 00:09:43,420 --> 00:09:53,800 So the internal and external normally contact each other after they've read the thesis. 83 00:09:53,800 --> 00:10:06,340 In fact, it's the been the internal job to organise the time and place of the vivaand to agree that with the external and the student, 84 00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:13,120 then the internal and external, each separately without consulting with each other. 85 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:26,110 Write What's called a preliminary report in that preliminary report, they normally start off by summarising what they think the PhD is trying to do. 86 00:10:26,110 --> 00:10:32,710 So their understanding of what the aims of these are, the rationale and the methodology. 87 00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:36,410 So that's normally the first couple of paragraphs of the preliminary report. 88 00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:43,360 That's why it's so important in your introduction, you make sure that those key aspects of the thesis are clear. 89 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,920 Then they go on to assess each one of them in some detail. 90 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:59,800 In other words, they they offer their evaluation of how well the student has done each and then they determine a preliminary outcome. 91 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:07,930 In other words, they recommend minor revisions or major revisions or a pass, an unconditional pass. 92 00:11:07,930 --> 00:11:16,510 Those preliminary reports are then exchanged prior to the viva, usually some days before. 93 00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:21,910 And so so that each can reflect on the views of the other. 94 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:30,430 Then they usually meet wherever the is taking place, often over lunch prior to the viva or or over coffee. 95 00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:36,100 They discuss their agreements and disagreements before they go in to the viva 96 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:41,620 So when you when the student enters into the room, internal and external have already met each other. 97 00:11:41,620 --> 00:11:46,210 They've already had a substantive discussion about the thesis and about their views. 98 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:50,670 It will always be some differences and they will have come to. 99 00:11:50,670 --> 00:12:01,020 An initial view on the thesis and its quality and the recommendation they would like to make at the end of the two or three hour, 100 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:10,320 viva students will be asked to sit out to the outside and the internal and external will deliberate once again and see whether, 101 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,410 in fact, their view still stands or whether, in fact, they want to shift that view based on viva 102 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:18,360 That's why the viva does matter. 103 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:27,940 So jumping forward slightly, then let's just imagine you sat down with your cup of tea on the thesis, which is a lovely image, by the way. 104 00:12:27,940 --> 00:12:35,470 What would you advise a student to be to be doing in that time, this kind of awkward 70 days? 105 00:12:35,470 --> 00:12:40,150 I mean, it can be it can be a significant amount of time between the Viva and the submission and viva rather 106 00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:43,930 So what would you how would you recommend a student spend that time? 107 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:55,330 Well, I think you normally have about, am I right, three months between submission and the actual viva. 108 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:58,690 That was certainly the case for me. I think it can be slightly more than that. 109 00:12:58,690 --> 00:13:02,000 But also, yes, it can be more. 110 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:10,330 But regardless of how long you have, I think the first thing you should do is actually take a rest. 111 00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:20,200 You probably will working very intensely on your project until submission point, and you're probably saturated by it. 112 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:26,770 And I think I say that you should take a rest, not just because you should take care of yourself and for well-being reasons, 113 00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:34,630 but also because while you're taking a rest, you are gaining critical distance from your thesis. 114 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:45,460 And I think that's very important. Before you go into the viva that you develop some critical distance from it so that when you return to the thesis, 115 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:51,510 which you must do in order to prepare for the viva, which is worth doing. 116 00:13:51,510 --> 00:13:58,410 You know, it's not that you've forgotten what you've written, but that you can somehow see it through clearer, 117 00:13:58,410 --> 00:14:04,080 more self-critical eyes, and I think that perspective is crucial. 118 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,750 So after you've taken perhaps two or three weeks off, perhaps even a month, if you can, 119 00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:14,100 it could involve a holiday, but it also could involve just doing other work. 120 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:19,530 What you want to do is turn your mind away from the project, think about other things, 121 00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:24,420 and then come back to it afresh and you will see it with different eyes. 122 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:32,040 And that experience of coming back to your project after leaving it for a little while is both exhilarating and exciting. 123 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,050 Also a little scary and sometimes a little frustrating because you, of course, 124 00:14:37,050 --> 00:14:43,530 reread it and realise the strength of the thesis as well as its limitations. 125 00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:52,050 But I think that's very important that you go into a knowing its strengths because you might even be asked this question by a cheeky external. 126 00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:57,480 What are the strengths of the thesis and what do you think the limitations of your work are? 127 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:07,290 So once you've, if you like, undertaken the moves to put you in that perspective or to acquire that perspective, 128 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:18,540 and you need to prepare to answer four questions, there is no way you're going to have a viva without being asked all four of these questions. 129 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:25,280 And of course, they're not going to be surprising because they pertain to the four pillars, if you like, of the the storyline of the. 130 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:31,070 The first question you're going to be asked, and sometimes it comes up at the very beginning of your viva, 131 00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:35,630 is your research question, your puzzle, your problem? 132 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:41,540 They may ask they may ask the question in different ways. Why did you choose this topic? 133 00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:47,570 What brought you to this question? Why did you think it was so important? 134 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:52,270 But they will ask you to explain your puzzle. 135 00:15:52,270 --> 00:15:59,390 In other words, the aims of your thesis. Second of all, they will ask you. 136 00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:09,170 What your argument is. So, in fact, I have been in the viva once where I think the external I wouldn't have done it this way, 137 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:16,480 but the external the first question she asked was, so tell me in two sentences what your thesis is. 138 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:26,720 But you need to practise articulating the argument of your thesis in one or two sentences just in case you're put on the spot. 139 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,240 Third, you're going to be asked questions around the rationale of the thesis, 140 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:43,720 why you thought it was an important project to pursue in academic terms, and what do you think the contribution to knowledge is? 141 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,270 And finally, they're going to ask you about how you did your research. 142 00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:57,790 So in other words, your methodology, the entire viva, will be structured around those four broad questions. 143 00:16:57,790 --> 00:17:08,090 And depending on your answers, you will get subsequent questions pushing you to illuminate the work that you've done. 144 00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:12,050 So I would prepare for the viva in the interim, 145 00:17:12,050 --> 00:17:18,920 I would not believe what I've heard from some students and some colleagues that the viva doesn't really matter. 146 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,910 Some people would argue that in the end, what really matters is the thesis itself. 147 00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:31,130 In other words, what you've written, that is what's being tested and that what you actually say in the viva is neither here nor there, 148 00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:39,500 apart from the fact that one of the purposes, one of the functions of Avivah is to actually establish that you're the author of the. 149 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,740 So that's that's that's one function. 150 00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:53,330 But I would argue that preparing for the viva is incredibly important for the outcome in two ways, one, emotionally and psychologically. 151 00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:58,340 In other words, you're more likely to have a good experience in the viva. 152 00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:02,900 In other words, a good conversation with your internal and external, 153 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:10,590 if you know your thesis well and you're prepared to answer questions around those four pillars. 154 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:21,810 And I think, second of all, if by any chance there is a difference of opinion between the internal and external about what the outcome should be, 155 00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:30,030 let's say minor revision versus major revision, your answers to those four very broad questions. 156 00:18:30,030 --> 00:18:36,890 can help them decide whether it's going to be minor or major. 157 00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:48,710 So I strongly advise students to prepare for the viva both so that they have fun and also so that the outcome is as good as it can be. 158 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:53,150 There was one term that you used there, which I think a lot of people will have heard many, 159 00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:57,020 many times, but I think it might be worth spending them to unpick if that's OK. 160 00:18:57,020 --> 00:19:00,770 It's the idea of the Viva as a conversation, 161 00:19:00,770 --> 00:19:07,310 which I think is connected to what you were saying earlier about how depending on the answers you give to certain questions, 162 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:11,000 the the examiners can go down different roads. 163 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:18,320 So when you think of a presumably a good viva as a good conversation, what do you what do you mean by that? 164 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,400 How is it different from, say, an interview, for example? 165 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:34,550 I think conversation or dialogue as a way of describing the thesis as well as viva is, is a helpful way of thinking about the whole process. 166 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:41,640 So let me start by saying that in many respects, a thesis or a PhD 167 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:50,880 Is in fact, the product of a conversation, so in the rationale of your of your thesis, 168 00:19:50,880 --> 00:20:01,210 where you explain why you pursued this particular puzzle, you will need to lay out an academic academic conversation about your topic. 169 00:20:01,210 --> 00:20:04,330 It's often called the literature review. 170 00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:15,430 So the thesis itself represents a conversation between a group of academics who may agree or disagree with each other and yourself, in other words, 171 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:26,610 when you write a thesis as a student, you are intervening or you're seeking to intervene in a dialogue amongst experts about the subject. 172 00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:36,230 When you do your Viva. Then you have a second type of conversation, you have a conversation with two experts in the field. 173 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:44,960 About the conversation you've had in your thesis. So in other words, with your with your viva 174 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:53,420 your internal and external are interested not so much in determining whether they agree with your 175 00:20:53,420 --> 00:21:03,800 answers or not or whether they understand how you've come to them and why you've come to them. 176 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:11,390 Which comes itself to another point, which I think you may have raised in the discussion that I was actually in your experience. 177 00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:19,310 Is it possible to pass a viva, even if you examine it, totally disagree with your conclusions? 178 00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:26,390 I think that depends on what one means by disagree with one's conclusions. 179 00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:36,380 I'm speculating here. I'm not in the sciences, but I'm wondering whether perhaps in the sciences that may not be possible. 180 00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:41,540 In other words, if they think that you've done i don't know you've performed 181 00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:49,280 like the formulas incorrectly or misunderstood your formulas or use the wrong ones and therefore have the wrong outcomes, 182 00:21:49,280 --> 00:22:00,680 it's quite possible that perhaps you don't pass. I think in the social sciences, there's it can be a matter of interpretation. 183 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:09,150 So in the social sciences, what they will be checking and what I would check for is the level of scholarship. 184 00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:11,220 Involved in the thesis. 185 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:22,440 In other words, has this student engaged with the right, with the relevant literature on the subject, or have they missed certain literature? 186 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:30,140 Do they show a good grasp of the conceptual and empirical material that's out there? 187 00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:39,140 And have they managed to mobilise evidence to sustain the argument that they're making? 188 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:46,820 If they do all of that, and I still disagree perhaps with either the direction they've taken or, 189 00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:53,930 as you put it, the outcomes, then yes, yes, they will still pass. 190 00:22:53,930 --> 00:23:05,940 I've had a number of students who have mobilised or deployed theoretical perspectives that I don't find particularly interesting and or helpful. 191 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:11,160 And a brilliant thesis can be written using both theoretical perspectives, 192 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,840 even if I'm perhaps not enamoured with them because I think there are problems. 193 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:22,350 So I might raise those problems in the viva to make sure they understand the limits of that perspective. 194 00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:28,560 But I'm going to be very happy passing them if they have done a good job mobilising evidence 195 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,420 for their case and showing a good understanding of the theoretical perspective and its limits. 196 00:23:34,420 --> 00:23:35,170 So thank you for that. 197 00:23:35,170 --> 00:23:43,216 I think that's a really good clarification of a point that a lot of people will have heard but may not have been able to express in detail. 198 00:23:43,216 --> 00:23:50,716 So let's jump forward now to the Viva itself. I mean, with everything we've spoken about, this has been Viva to some degree, but. 199 00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:55,776 As an examiner, whether an internal or external. 200 00:23:55,776 --> 00:24:11,046 What frustrates you in a viva, I think some viva I've really enjoyed some this and I found other viva is very difficult to get through. 201 00:24:11,046 --> 00:24:21,516 I think one of the things that students should keep in mind, as I said earlier, is that viva is a dialogue. 202 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:34,416 It's a dialogue between three people, sometimes four, depending on whether you have two externals and one internal or just one external, one internal. 203 00:24:34,416 --> 00:24:44,946 And I think students should keep in mind that although it's intimate and that there are only three of you in a room or perhaps four, 204 00:24:44,946 --> 00:24:50,046 but somehow externals and internals are people, too, 205 00:24:50,046 --> 00:24:58,026 and that they may also come to the viva with their own baggage and in fact, may feel a little bit nervous. 206 00:24:58,026 --> 00:25:04,056 In other words, it's a performance and the student is performing, but so is the internal and so the external, 207 00:25:04,056 --> 00:25:08,886 especially if there's an internal chair and internal chair presence as well. 208 00:25:08,886 --> 00:25:18,426 And so what one wants in the performance of the viva is everyone to listen to each other, 209 00:25:18,426 --> 00:25:24,546 to be respectful and polite with each other and to enjoy it. 210 00:25:24,546 --> 00:25:31,626 So one of the things that frustrates me, if you like, is and I realise it can't be helped, 211 00:25:31,626 --> 00:25:38,916 is that if a student is so nervous that they can't engage in that dialogue. 212 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:46,596 In other words, if they haven't prepared and therefore thrown by questions about what their puzzle is or what their thesis is, 213 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:52,026 etc., then that conversation can slowly grind to a halt. 214 00:25:52,026 --> 00:25:58,356 And that can be frustrating for for the student, but also for the internal and external. 215 00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:03,216 So, in fact, you want the students to go into the viva, not only well prepared, in other words, 216 00:26:03,216 --> 00:26:11,706 they know their thesis well, but also hopefully you want them to go in with some enthusiasm. 217 00:26:11,706 --> 00:26:16,506 Remember, the internal and the external are experts in the field. 218 00:26:16,506 --> 00:26:23,406 And therefore, this is the you should see the viva as an opportunity to have a good natter with two people in your 219 00:26:23,406 --> 00:26:34,566 field who are interested in your project and who may well in the future become referees for jobs. 220 00:26:34,566 --> 00:26:41,286 So I think I realise this is a big ask because it's normal to be nervousl, to be nervous, 221 00:26:41,286 --> 00:26:45,576 but I strongly believe that preparing for a viva can actually reduce that 222 00:26:45,576 --> 00:26:53,816 problem and help you perform in a relaxed and congenial way in the actual viva 223 00:26:53,816 --> 00:26:58,846 I think my advice to students who are going into the viva. 224 00:26:58,846 --> 00:27:04,726 Is that they to the best of their ability, and I understand it's a nerve wracking moment, 225 00:27:04,726 --> 00:27:13,216 but they must try very hard not to become defensive in the viva 226 00:27:13,216 --> 00:27:21,346 I think I have been in some Vivas where the student has become overly defensive. 227 00:27:21,346 --> 00:27:33,916 I realise it's partly because of nerves. And as a result, the conversation has become stilted and in fact, sometimes uncomfortable. 228 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:42,086 So remember, students need to remember that the internal and external, it's part of their job. 229 00:27:42,086 --> 00:27:48,556 It's part of their mandate to critically interrogate the piece of work in front of them 230 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:56,316 and to engage you in a robust conversation about its strengths as well as its limits. 231 00:27:56,316 --> 00:28:07,296 So while I'm not suggesting you should concede on every point raised by the internal or external critical point, you must defend the. 232 00:28:07,296 --> 00:28:15,936 You must not become defensive. You must acknowledge that there are some limits to it. 233 00:28:15,936 --> 00:28:21,186 And you must show an understanding of why those limits arose. 234 00:28:21,186 --> 00:28:30,036 But whatever you do, don't go in there defensive because it will make your internal and external examiners defensive in return. 235 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:34,656 So would you mind saying a bit more about major correction? 236 00:28:34,656 --> 00:28:42,126 Because I know it's something a lot of people are worried about. What's your experience with major corrections as opposed to minor? 237 00:28:42,126 --> 00:28:47,136 I think there are more major revisions than people realise. Let me put it that way. 238 00:28:47,136 --> 00:28:53,406 I think students often think that getting major revisions is a disaster. 239 00:28:53,406 --> 00:29:03,366 It's not. It's not. I mean, if you look at the if you look at the what do you call it from the description of each category, 240 00:29:03,366 --> 00:29:13,266 minor revisions should arguably only involve changes to the text typos or adding references or 241 00:29:13,266 --> 00:29:21,906 perhaps adding a table and perhaps adding a little bit of research in one discrete chapter. 242 00:29:21,906 --> 00:29:32,696 Anything more than that, anything that would require you to do the cuts across the chapters, for example, will go under major revisions. 243 00:29:32,696 --> 00:29:42,296 And yet that that may be necessary and may not take that long to do so, I think a lot of students do get major. 244 00:29:42,296 --> 00:29:52,676 That's my impression, especially since I think some years ago they made a change and they narrowed minor revisions down to two very small changes. 245 00:29:52,676 --> 00:29:56,606 So I would just encourage students to to not panic. 246 00:29:56,606 --> 00:30:01,856 They get major revisions to see that is eminently doable. 247 00:30:01,856 --> 00:30:08,006 I really like your point about cutting across chapters, being major revisions, minor revisions. 248 00:30:08,006 --> 00:30:14,846 And my impression is that minor revisions should be contained, containable, 249 00:30:14,846 --> 00:30:22,196 so we can go anywhere from typos to adding sections of a chapter, perhaps even sections to chapters. 250 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:29,576 But anything that requires changing the story line, as I put it, is usually goes under, Major. 251 00:30:29,576 --> 00:30:41,876 I mean, keep in mind, Edward, that sometimes an external and internal will decide to give the student major revisions in part, 252 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:49,016 in part to help them out and give them enough time to make those revisions. 253 00:30:49,016 --> 00:30:56,396 So remember, the difference between minor and major is not just about quality, if you like the thesis, 254 00:30:56,396 --> 00:31:04,586 but it's also about the amount of time that the internal and external deemed to be necessary to make the changes. 255 00:31:04,586 --> 00:31:09,476 And in order to determine that, they often ask student. 256 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:13,796 What their needs are and what they're doing and how much time they need. 257 00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:20,096 Sometimes you might have a student that's working full time, for instance, they've had to get a job and therefore, 258 00:31:20,096 --> 00:31:26,006 the internal and external might make a decision partly about whether it's minor or a major, 259 00:31:26,006 --> 00:31:30,846 partly in terms of the amount of time that they think the student needs. 260 00:31:30,846 --> 00:31:40,966 So it's a strategic decision as well. And the last question I want to ask was a specific one about the the role of the chair, if that's OK. 261 00:31:40,966 --> 00:31:47,466 So. Increasingly at Exeter, and certainly in light of coronavirus, 262 00:31:47,466 --> 00:31:58,206 we're seeing a lot of PhDs being examined with this mysterious extra person on the panel who shouldn't and 263 00:31:58,206 --> 00:32:02,946 arguably make a huge amount of difference to the outcomes of either but whose role is very important. 264 00:32:02,946 --> 00:32:11,616 So could I ask you to say a bit more about that role, this non examining independent chair position, which I understand you've done yourself? 265 00:32:11,616 --> 00:32:23,916 Yes, although I have to say that I would I would question the idea that the independent chair plays any role in determining the outcome of viva, 266 00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:28,986 and that's not their role. The role of the of the independent chair, 267 00:32:28,986 --> 00:32:38,436 the non examining that's the key non examining independent chair is simply to to assess that you 268 00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:46,626 like and to monitor the viva and make sure that it is conducted according to the regulations. 269 00:32:46,626 --> 00:32:53,526 So they will not have read the thesis, they will have no view on on the content of it. 270 00:32:53,526 --> 00:32:58,236 They will have not be asked for their view on the outcome. 271 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:08,616 The only thing that they are responsible for is the conduct of the viva itself and that it is conducted according to the rules. 272 00:33:08,616 --> 00:33:10,986 Can I ask a related question to that? 273 00:33:10,986 --> 00:33:19,326 This is something I've always wondered myself what once the candidate is asked to step out of the room or in my case, 274 00:33:19,326 --> 00:33:26,826 to temporarily leave the team's meeting as it was, because I had, of course, virtual viva 275 00:33:26,826 --> 00:33:29,916 What kind of things are actually said between the examiners? 276 00:33:29,916 --> 00:33:38,226 This is just a personal question I've always wondered this is it kind of oh few or is it kind of a OK or does it very much depend on the viva? 277 00:33:38,226 --> 00:33:45,876 It very much depends on the viva. And sometimes there is an overview, especially if the student is either very nervous, 278 00:33:45,876 --> 00:33:52,836 in which case the conversation is stilted and that's felt by all concerned or in the case where 279 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:58,626 a student can be very defensive or just show no understanding of the weaknesses of the case. 280 00:33:58,626 --> 00:34:03,726 In all three cases or scenarios, vivas can be painful. 281 00:34:03,726 --> 00:34:11,586 And so the supervisors sorry, not the supervisor, the internal and external can sometimes be relieved at the end. 282 00:34:11,586 --> 00:34:16,266 Usually, however, and most of the Vivas I've done, it's very rare that that happens. 283 00:34:16,266 --> 00:34:22,656 By the way, most of the five years I've done the the internal and external look at each other 284 00:34:22,656 --> 00:34:26,946 and most of the time we've enjoyed the conversation we've had with the student. 285 00:34:26,946 --> 00:34:37,836 And in my experience anyway, is often and attempt to be as generous with the students as possible, generous and supportive of the student. 286 00:34:37,836 --> 00:34:44,616 And I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding that the job of the internal is to defend the students. 287 00:34:44,616 --> 00:34:50,496 The job of the external is to be the critical interrogator. 288 00:34:50,496 --> 00:34:53,016 In my experience, that's not the case. 289 00:34:53,016 --> 00:35:00,576 In my experience, the world of the internal is really only to make sure again, especially if there's no independent chair, 290 00:35:00,576 --> 00:35:07,386 that the Viva has been conducted in a way that is consistent with the regulations. 291 00:35:07,386 --> 00:35:13,326 Apart from that, both the internal and the external are expected to ask tough questions of the students. 292 00:35:13,326 --> 00:35:21,486 And it's not the role of the internal so-called defend the student unless unless they feel that the viva is taking 293 00:35:21,486 --> 00:35:27,216 an uncomfortable turn and that the external is being overly critical or destructive in their manner. 294 00:35:27,216 --> 00:35:31,386 But apart from that, both internal and external have the same role. 295 00:35:31,386 --> 00:35:39,486 In other words, they're there to assess the scholarship of the student and to determine whether it meets the required standards. 296 00:35:39,486 --> 00:35:44,706 What's your opinion on Mock Vivas? Do you tend to encourage your as a supervisor, 297 00:35:44,706 --> 00:35:51,426 your your students to have them always is a mock or something that you're kind of doing all through your PhD? 298 00:35:51,426 --> 00:35:54,636 I would actually encourage students to go through Mock Vivas 299 00:35:54,636 --> 00:36:05,286 I think it's good practise if for no other reason that it might help students manage their nerves. 300 00:36:05,286 --> 00:36:09,996 So if they performed the viva already with their supervisor perhaps and a friend. 301 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:19,386 So I did it once with a colleague of mine, we both sat and pretended to be the internal and external and put the student through a grilling. 302 00:36:19,386 --> 00:36:27,216 And I think it worked very well. And hopefully it helped the student prepare for the viva because they were less nervous 303 00:36:27,216 --> 00:36:37,266 when they went in and they understood the kinds of questions they would be asked. So I think mock vivas are are are to be encouraged. 304 00:36:37,266 --> 00:36:41,376 Thanks again to Bice for that really illuminating conversation and discussion, 305 00:36:41,376 --> 00:36:46,206 which I'm sure will be very useful to those of us preparing for Vivas at the moment. 306 00:36:46,206 --> 00:36:54,696 Thank you so much to Edward and Bice for such an illuminating and supportive discussion. 307 00:36:54,696 --> 00:37:01,386 Our next episode will be the last one in this mini series on the Viva guest hosted by Edward 308 00:37:01,386 --> 00:37:07,776 In that episode, he'll be talking to one of his own Viva examiners. And that's it for this episode. 309 00:37:07,776 --> 00:37:10,896 Don't forget to like rate and subscribe and join me. 310 00:37:10,896 --> 00:37:37,505 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Dr. Kay Guccione, Senior Lecturer in Academic Development about her work, research and expertise in mentoring and coaching for researchers. During the podcast Kay mentioned a resource about Choosing, Recruiting and working with a mentor which is available online. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,230 --> 00:00:13,640 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:32,180 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:39,980 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens. In this episode, I'm going to be talking to my colleague, Dr. Kay Guccione. 4 00:00:39,980 --> 00:00:47,840 Kay, I've known for a few years because of her expertise and amazing work in mentoring and coaching for researchers. 5 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:53,570 So I wanted to invite Kay on the podcast to talk about why it's important to have a mentor. 6 00:00:53,570 --> 00:00:59,630 What thebenefits are also about how she sets up mentoring schemes for researchers. 7 00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:04,910 So, Kay, happy to introduce yourself. My name is Kay Guccione. 8 00:01:04,910 --> 00:01:09,860 I work at Glasgow Caledonian University and I work in academic development. 9 00:01:09,860 --> 00:01:18,920 I lead on things like professional recognition through HEA accreditation, but also on mentoring and community building for our staff who teach. 10 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:26,030 So the reason we want to chat today was about the kind of mentoring and coaching aspect of the work you do. 11 00:01:26,030 --> 00:01:34,790 And I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how how you became interested in this area, because you've done a huge amount work in it. 12 00:01:34,790 --> 00:01:41,750 Yeah, I. You know, I never had a mentor until really recently or really anybody who's played a role. 13 00:01:41,750 --> 00:01:47,360 Anything in my development, like mentoring is, as we understand it now as a professional practise. 14 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,500 And really, my undergrad and PhD looking back, 15 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:57,590 I really have made use of that kind of thing because as a person who likes to sound things out makes up my mind by doing that sort of, 16 00:01:57,590 --> 00:02:02,840 you know, talking it through, seeing what comes out and then making sense of that. 17 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,200 I could have used that kind of development myself. 18 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:14,720 But my first encounter with mentoring was when I moved out of postdoc and I was a science postdoc and I moved into being a postdoc developer. 19 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:23,920 So research developer and one of the projects on the long list of things to do for postdocs just said you're mentoring programme as as the Concordat 20 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,770 did in that days. You know, it just it said postdocs should have some mentoring. 21 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:32,360 So it was a really blank canvas open to whatever we made of it. 22 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,390 Really, I don't know anything about mentoring. I never experienced it firsthand. 23 00:02:35,390 --> 00:02:41,930 So I popped over to Sheffield Hallam University to meet Paul Stokes in the mentoring and 24 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:47,240 Coaching Research Unit down there and to get the support of that team really in terms of, 25 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,050 you know, what's a programme? What does it look like? What is happening? What was mentoring? 26 00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:56,060 What the mentor supposed to do? So very naive. Which went along and ask some experts. 27 00:02:56,060 --> 00:03:00,410 I suppose that's a particular skill of mine. Go and ask someone who knows. 28 00:03:00,410 --> 00:03:06,440 And we started the programme and it immediately became my favourite piece of work. 29 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:13,780 You can see the transformation happening and mentoring is really rich learning and it's personalised to each individual mentee that comes in. 30 00:03:13,780 --> 00:03:20,990 And because it's contextualised as it helps them do the things that they want to do, it has really immediate impact. 31 00:03:20,990 --> 00:03:30,040 And people were raving about it, about the quality of the conversations that they were having with their mentors and what it was enabling them to do. 32 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,830 It became just a dream to work on. So over time, that programme grew. 33 00:03:33,830 --> 00:03:39,200 It became massive. It went to institutional level and then spun off into smaller programmes like thesis 34 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,080 mentoring and the mentoring for researchers who want to get careers outside the academy. 35 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:51,060 And then from that into a suite of new programmes supporting people across the University of Sheffield. 36 00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:57,800 Alongside that, I'd done a Masters is a master's in education with a coaching and mentoring specialism through the University of Derby. 37 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:04,760 So I have imbibed all experience at programme development level and then all the training that underpins it. 38 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:14,810 I was able to make a case very during a team restructure that there should be a role dedicated to mentoring, coaching in communities. 39 00:04:14,810 --> 00:04:20,750 And I did that role in Sheffield from 2012 to 2019. They want to move to GCU in 2019. 40 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:26,970 That sort of work, again, became a large part of my role because it works, you know, because it's something we can put into place. 41 00:04:26,970 --> 00:04:31,670 It's I mean, it's personalised and we see the results within six months of what is going on. 42 00:04:31,670 --> 00:04:41,480 So that's fabulous. You know, you said just that, you know, how much you enjoy that work and how quickly you see the impact and the benefits. 43 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:52,160 I mean, making that case for a dedicated role to look at mentoring, coaching, it's not it's not an easy thing within. 44 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:59,000 A higher education. But could you talk a little bit about some of the impact and benefits that you see? 45 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:07,590 Yes. And I think the thing the thing was that helps me making that case when the role is that mentoring isn't the way I see is. 46 00:05:07,590 --> 00:05:14,400 Mentoring isn't a project has very limited reach. If it's seen as something that is a project, you know, alongside, 47 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,140 we do this kind of training course and that kind of network and this kind of mentoring programme. 48 00:05:19,140 --> 00:05:23,880 If you see mentoring as something systemic, you know, and you think in systems of mentoring. 49 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,370 So we've got the senior academics mentoring the junior academics. 50 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:31,630 They're mentoring the postdocs, postdocs mentoring the PGR as PGRs are peer mentoring with each other. 51 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:38,460 And, you know, it's if you see as something that cascades out and understand the difference that can be made, 52 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:44,850 if everybody has this skill set and everyone can apply that skill set not just to a mentoring programme, 53 00:05:44,850 --> 00:05:48,940 but, you know, in small group teaching, you can use these skills as a  line manager. 54 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:52,290 You can use these skills as a PhD supervisor, you can use these skills. 55 00:05:52,290 --> 00:06:03,840 So once I became to see it as a systems of work, it was much easier to show what impact it would have at that organisational level. 56 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:07,940 And in terms of the individuals that that's where it starts, you know, the impact on this person. 57 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:14,340 So I guess at its most basic level, mentoring is a confidential space where someone can sit down, 58 00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:18,750 think out loud, check things out and just find out how stuff works. 59 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:23,410 So even at that basic one to one level, there's probably something in it for everyone, 60 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:30,420 because the questions that you have and the things you want to talk about a personal to you coming into that mentoring programme, 61 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:36,990 the mentors, they're you know, they help you make some time and some space to actually sit down and think about yourself for a change. 62 00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:40,560 Think about where you go in. We don't often get to do. A real privilege. 63 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:48,420 And I think the quality of the plans we put into action are probably represented by the quality of the thinking that went into them. 64 00:06:48,420 --> 00:06:56,660 So being able to find our feet and find our way forward is something that's a key impact of those mentoring kind of conversations. 65 00:06:56,660 --> 00:07:00,180 You know, if it depends what people are looking for, it's a chance to be heard and really listened to. 66 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:03,240 That's not very common in pressured competitive environments, 67 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:10,890 particularly suited to the research environment, I think, to make that space to be heard and be listened to. 68 00:07:10,890 --> 00:07:16,920 And, you know, if we understand how something works, the game of academia, what the rules are, how to navigate it with them, 69 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:26,370 building confidence to try things out and building confidence in ourselves as researchers and ask people who have something to contribute. 70 00:07:26,370 --> 00:07:30,450 If you're kind of person, who needs a bit of a push or some accountability to say, get your papers written. 71 00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:36,810 A mentor can help with that. If you're someone who needs, you know, at a time where they need a get support and a sympathetic ear. 72 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:41,220 Mentors can offer that. If it's just a, you know, case of what next. 73 00:07:41,220 --> 00:07:44,470 I don't know what the options are on where to go. Mentors can offer that as well. 74 00:07:44,470 --> 00:07:49,000 So whatever you bring to it, that's what you work on. 75 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:56,610 And I think if people see it really as an arena for doing a piece of planning rather than for solving a problem particularly, 76 00:07:56,610 --> 00:08:01,500 you can start to see how it fits into into everyday work and everyday life. 77 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:08,010 And we've all got things on the horizon we need to think about. Let's do that thinking in a systematic way with someone who wants to help us. 78 00:08:08,010 --> 00:08:11,870 And I think it gives us that time to do what you know, 79 00:08:11,870 --> 00:08:20,670 we we don't have time to do so often at higher education, which is to take a step back and reflect and plan. 80 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:26,700 And I know in in my role as a researcher developer, which obviously, you know, you've done that as well. 81 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:31,320 And now as a senior lecturer working in academic development, 82 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:38,250 you know that the time and the facility for that just feels like it's dwindling as a 83 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:45,180 kind of academic workloads and expectations and outputs and everything kind of grows. 84 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:52,740 But actually, it's those conversations like you're talking about those plans that planning, that time for reflection, 85 00:08:52,740 --> 00:09:00,590 for strategic thinking about what comes next, that's actually going to help us to do the productive aspect of it. 86 00:09:00,590 --> 00:09:07,800 Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's there's very famous cartoon where there's a sort of a cave dwelling person pushing 87 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,870 a cart with square wheels and there's the developer there offering them round wheels and they say, 88 00:09:12,870 --> 00:09:19,410 you know, I haven't got time for this. I'm too busy. And you figure this would really help with what you're trying to achieve? 89 00:09:19,410 --> 00:09:23,760 And I think absolutely, we cannot deny that workloads have rocketed. 90 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,680 There's not enough staff in universities. Everybody's doing at least a job and a half right now. 91 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:33,540 And I think as somebody who designs programmes and designs mentoring conversations, 92 00:09:33,540 --> 00:09:39,750 even just having the chance to go and meet a mentor is being pushed out. 93 00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:43,530 So it's a cases and, you know, how else can we get these conversations into things? 94 00:09:43,530 --> 00:09:46,980 How can we make them part of peer observations or peer review? 95 00:09:46,980 --> 00:09:51,450 How can we make them part of team meetings or annual appraisal systems and. 96 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:55,590 How can we we get these. The quality of conversation. 97 00:09:55,590 --> 00:10:03,540 Two things people are obliged to do, even if they can't find time to sort of, you know, sit down for the hour. 98 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:10,740 What can be done and trying to find ways to fit it in a simple cost is for postgraduate and early career researchers. 99 00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:18,870 I wonder if you could say something about maybe the benefits of engaging in mentoring and coaching at that stage of your career. 100 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:29,800 But also why it's something that they should make the time for, because they're not necessarily part of those kind of line management type structures. 101 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:36,750 to a certain extent. I think it is about readiness because mentoring is a piece of work that researchers do. 102 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:42,330 You know, it's not it's not a magic fix. It's not a case of going off to meet somebody and then receiving the answers. 103 00:10:42,330 --> 00:10:53,640 It is a piece of self evaluation. It requires you to be open and be honest with yourself, at least about where it is you want to go. 104 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,610 And where you're at right now. So I would say firstly, if people really believe it's not for them and don't want to, 105 00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:05,070 that's absolutely fine, because it does require a certain amount of energy and input from the researcher. 106 00:11:05,070 --> 00:11:09,110 But if you are ready for that and you're thinking, you know, who do I choose and how? 107 00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:14,130 I'm happy to pass on a whole resource that I've got about how to consider that. 108 00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:21,540 I'll make sure that that gets passed over. Linked to the main things to think about are who do you. 109 00:11:21,540 --> 00:11:28,500 Who do you want to work with? Who would you like to speak to? And the people who you might identify as being really appropriate mentors, 110 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:33,180 people with big CVs, lots of publications, you know, big research teams, actually. 111 00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:39,510 Are they the best mentors? You know, we're looking at mentoring. As I said, is a specific skill sets. 112 00:11:39,510 --> 00:11:42,960 It's an education based skill set, is an interpersonal skill set. 113 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:49,530 So look around for the person who everybody thinks is a good, you know, a good supporter. 114 00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:53,100 Look at that. Their PhD students. Their postdocs. The research teams. 115 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:57,180 And you can ask, you know, of a good person to speak to. 116 00:11:57,180 --> 00:12:02,700 And then when you approach a mentor, I would say it's good to tell them who you are, what you might be aiming for, 117 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:11,610 what you might want from them, where you're aiming to go, perhaps, and then what you've seen about them that you think you could benefit from. 118 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:20,100 And I think if we start off together on this understanding that mentoring is a piece of work that the mentee does, the mentor is the support for that. 119 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:20,910 And in order to support, 120 00:12:20,910 --> 00:12:28,740 they've got to have these these great skills were probably in the right mindset for understanding if mentoring is for us right now. 121 00:12:28,740 --> 00:12:33,280 If you are thinking about try and out, but you're hesitating a bit. 122 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:39,120 I mean, just give it a go. What's what what could happen. You know, you might think, actually, I picked the wrong person. 123 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:45,990 Never mind. Let's just say thanks and move on or I don't really see what I've got out of that that I couldn't have done on my own. 124 00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:50,970 That's perfectly fine. Some people like to work, you know, in as as an individual on paper, in the heads. 125 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:54,750 That's fine. It's a skill set. And you can self coach and self mentor. 126 00:12:54,750 --> 00:13:02,040 Once you know these kind of self-analysis tools and ways of thinking, you can ask yourself coaching questions as well. 127 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:08,470 If there's nobody available to you around, you could get together with peers, talk to friends, have a little coaching session. 128 00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:13,080 You know, there's there's always some way to do the kind of reflection that I'm talking about. 129 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:19,290 So start small. Build up. Decide if you like it. If you don't know where is in that. 130 00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:28,130 All of this is the schemes that you've run. And I know at Sheffield that the the volume of them kind of in the end was huge, 131 00:13:28,130 --> 00:13:33,810 are there kind of really tangible benefits that you saw from people going through that scheme in terms of 132 00:13:33,810 --> 00:13:39,710 kind of how they move forward with their careers or research completion publication that that sort of thing. 133 00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:42,810 Yeah. I would say when you're evaluating mentor or you want to look first, 134 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:49,200 they experience people have because that will give you that will give you a sense of what might happen in the future. 135 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:56,070 Now, with mentoring programmes, you know, can be short just in a few months, six months, say what we probably aren't expecting. 136 00:13:56,070 --> 00:14:00,820 And that time is for someone to get five publications out just because of the timelines that research and publishing 137 00:14:00,820 --> 00:14:10,070 and those kinds of indicators of academic esteem work on different timelines to mentor and obviously so on the. 138 00:14:10,070 --> 00:14:15,920 On the programmes I've worked on, I've always asked people, you know, did this make a difference to your sense of belonging to the university? 139 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:22,040 Did it make a difference to your confidence? Did it make a difference to the strategies and plans you've put into place? 140 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,850 And then what we see is further down the line that we see the tangible benefits of that. 141 00:14:25,850 --> 00:14:32,130 So we might get the person who gets the fellowship. We might get the person who gets a different job, decides what career they want to move into, 142 00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:39,290 gets their publishing done, gets involved in the kind of outreach or public engagement work that they want to do. 143 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:41,210 The goals are personal to the individuals. 144 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:50,480 But if we start with the support, the confidence and the planning, those more tangible or hard benefits will tend to come after that. 145 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:59,960 And I think that's the key for me in so much of the development work that we do as a researcher, academic people would have a developers. 146 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:07,190 Is that, you know, sometimes because because of the nature of H-E and the kind of culture of the speed of it, 147 00:15:07,190 --> 00:15:10,600 the level of workload, there's a kind of desire for a quick fix. 148 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,320 There's a kind of okay, but I need something that's gonna give me a very tangible, very clear output now. 149 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,750 So, you know, I have it when people come to workshops. So, you know, we're going to workshop or writing your literature review. 150 00:15:20,750 --> 00:15:24,800 They kind of want to leave. Being able to sit down and write the literature review immediately afterwards, 151 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,420 whereas it's not what we're dealing with is something more complex and that a 152 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:32,810 more reflective that gets you to kind of work towards being able to do that. 153 00:15:32,810 --> 00:15:37,400 And. And I think I can really see that in what in what you're saying, actually, 154 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:43,020 it's it's not gonna give it's not necessarily going to give you that immediate kind of. 155 00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:46,890 OK. You've had a meeting. Here's a tangible thing that you can take away. 156 00:15:46,890 --> 00:15:48,920 And you've got output or you've got you know, 157 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:54,890 you've got something you can write on a CV or look up on a screen or hold in your hand or whatever it is. 158 00:15:54,890 --> 00:16:01,220 It's actually accepting that the benefit that the tangible or the kind of hard benefits, 159 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:05,700 as you call them, of this tend to come in the long term rather than the short term. 160 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:09,230 Yeah, absolutely. So this is kind of a transformative process. 161 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:13,820 And, you know, you might get a person coming into mentoring who's already got all this skills. 162 00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:19,670 They've got all of the aid is there ready to go. And all they need is somebody to say, yes, you can do it, you know? 163 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:22,430 And then you get to see a very immediate benefit. 164 00:16:22,430 --> 00:16:27,380 But you might also get somebody coming into the same mentoring programme who's just starting a journey. 165 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:30,110 And it's got to figure out a lot. A lot of things. 166 00:16:30,110 --> 00:16:37,250 You know, they it takes time to have ideas, to develop ideas, to draught writing and to to develop that writing. 167 00:16:37,250 --> 00:16:45,230 I think we absolutely have to look where people come in and where they where they finished mentoring programmes, 168 00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:49,860 you know, the objectives that they set for themselves at the beginning. How far along did they get those? 169 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:58,370 And some of that's in setting smart objectives, you know. Is it about having 10 papers at the end of this programme or is it about figuring out 170 00:16:58,370 --> 00:17:03,070 one good place to publish and really understanding what that journal is looking for? 171 00:17:03,070 --> 00:17:10,550 We've got different, different people coming in at different stages of their thinking, different stages of their understanding. 172 00:17:10,550 --> 00:17:12,950 And that's why we have to work at the individual level. 173 00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:19,000 We have to make sure that the support that's received is tailored to where that person's at and where they want to go. 174 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,940 You know, I, I know from myself, when I've gone into mentoring, I've gone into it and gone. 175 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:27,160 I know I need somebody to talk to you, but I don't have any idea what I'm aiming at 176 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,680 And that's that's the most mentees I've worked with. 177 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:37,440 We don't all turn up going. Here is my goal. You know, sometimes it's like I think something's wrong, 178 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,920 but I'm not sure what it is or I think something could be better or I don't understand what is expected of me. 179 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:51,500 And these are normal reactions to have at work. You know, it's complex and figuring out different work relationships and figuring out, you know, 180 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:59,750 what's possible for you and how you'd like to approach that is something that we all go through and a mentor can most definitely help with. 181 00:17:59,750 --> 00:18:06,750 So you mentioned earlier that. You know, a lot of this is is it is an eco system. 182 00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:13,790 Yeah, it's the kind of the senior professors mentoring the senior lecturers, mentoring the kind of newer academics, 183 00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:17,510 mentoring the postdocs, mentoring the PGRs you know, who are mentoring each other. 184 00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:22,970 So it is that kind of top down or bottom up, which is where you want to look at the ecosystem. 185 00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:26,240 And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how that. 186 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:37,370 How that kind of looks and operates and the benefits of that kind of level of an engaged mentoring culture amongst academics. 187 00:18:37,370 --> 00:18:45,620 Yeah, so I would say how it looks now is not how it looks when you start it, you don't have to do all in the first instance. 188 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:51,980 It's not a case of, you know, assembling 10000 people and making a culture of mentoring. 189 00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:59,840 On day three, it's how it started. It started with 12 people, six pairs. 190 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:06,440 So six academic volunteers and six postdocs is where it started. 191 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,660 And I think if you focus at that point on making sure everybody has a good experience and making 192 00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:16,040 sure at the end of it you understand what's made that a good experience and what the outcomes were, 193 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:22,190 those people will then start to do the work for you because the postdocs will tell other people this was great. 194 00:19:22,190 --> 00:19:26,780 Get on board with it. You know, if I go back to the mentors and say, would you mentor for us again? 195 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:30,650 And also can you recommend a colleague? And we started we sought to double up. 196 00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:35,720 So there comes a time when people are experienced as mentors say you got your 197 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,650 most senior academics and they will come to you and start asking questions. 198 00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:49,460 You know, I want. They might say I would like my Masters course to have a mentoring component with industry, or they might say, 199 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:58,100 I want all of my first year to do peer mentoring conversations with each other as a formative assessment before they get into their four, 200 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,910 they get into their summative assessments and you start to help with that and that. 201 00:20:01,910 --> 00:20:07,310 And so you start to see that the mentors who've had a really good experience want more of it. 202 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:12,730 They're trying to bring it into the departments for, say, new new academic starters on probation. 203 00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:14,570 They're trying to bring it into their taught courses. 204 00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:18,860 They're trying to bring it in with the people they supervise because they've had that good experience. 205 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:25,610 They can see the benefits. And then is a case of saying, you know, we've got a lot of people now, postdocs, for example, 206 00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:31,750 who've experienced having a mentor and why shouldn't they have the same skills? 207 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:35,570 You know, why shouldn't they also be able to apply this? We've got all these PGRs 208 00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:42,500 So, again,  it's more recruiting, piloting, trying to understand what's going on, thinking what what do people need to get done? 209 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,160 They need to get their theses done. What have postdocs already done? 210 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,670 They've written their thesis. So here we've got a hook to hang mentoring on. 211 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:53,960 We say, you know, this is not just about generic career support or career mentoring, 212 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,140 which I actually think PGRs are very well served for most universities now. 213 00:20:58,140 --> 00:21:01,670 But saying what targeted thing can we achieve with mentoring here? 214 00:21:01,670 --> 00:21:07,460 So postdoc thesis mentors was where I went next, coming out of thesis mentoring. 215 00:21:07,460 --> 00:21:14,060 People were saying, I wish I'd had this earlier. I really wish I hadn't left it to the last six months of my PhD to have a mentor. 216 00:21:14,060 --> 00:21:22,330 Fantastic. So what can we do at an early stage? And I'm looking then at a confirmation review which might be called upgrade of first year vivas 217 00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:29,510 But that piece of written work. Students have to do in order to remain on their doctoral course. 218 00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:35,000 And then on the other side of that, recognising that. So having a day, a year, you know, 219 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:40,310 there might be a national or international mentoring day or other event in the calendar 220 00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:44,690 for your university where you want to highlight all of the good stuff that's going on. 221 00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:51,480 So really championing that and saying, you know, we've had 100000 mentoring conversations at the university in the last year or. 222 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,030 And these are all the different kinds of groups we've served. These are all the different kinds of outcomes. 223 00:21:56,030 --> 00:22:01,580 We have and making sure that's very visible and it's very seen, of course, the university. 224 00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:08,720 But all that grows over time. So, you know, pick your six PGRs and start there and give them a good experience. 225 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,070 And it proves itself and it will grow from there. 226 00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:21,920 Yeah, I think really inspiring and and that's the importance of kind of start small and let people appreciate the benefits. 227 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,750 And then that will in and of itself, in and of itself, do the work for you. 228 00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:32,840 Yeah, absolutely. I was really interested in what you were saying there about the thesis mentoring, because I think one of the things that I, 229 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:38,720 I find when I talk to PGRs is that as a mentor, they don't think they've got anything to offer. 230 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:48,560 So they they they sort of would love to have, you know, be a mentee and have a mentor who either are most more experienced senior PGR or an academic, 231 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,900 but they don't see in themselves what they have to offer as a mentor. 232 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:59,060 I find that really just really challenging sometimes because I think particularly with peer to peer stuff 233 00:22:59,060 --> 00:23:04,340 One of the barriers that that certainly I feel that I have in the research community 234 00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:09,110 is that that it's they don't see the experience they have to offer. 235 00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:17,420 Yeah. And we know PGRs and that's incredible, isn't it, because we see that the huge amount of value that they bring to universities, I mean, 236 00:23:17,420 --> 00:23:22,310 really smart people who've achieved throughout their academic careers, 237 00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:31,220 who've come into a PhD as like independent thinkers and scholars, very proactive people, very engaged people, very smart. 238 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:35,390 There's very definitely something people can can offer there. 239 00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:38,960 But I think. Because mentoring and the skills of mentoring. 240 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:47,840 I talked about before this very person centred philosophy. The skills don't rely on the mentor having all the answers they rely on the mentor, 241 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:54,230 having the appropriate skills to question, to listen, to facilitate and to support other people. 242 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:58,070 And those are learnt skills. That's not something you just have to have or don't have. 243 00:23:58,070 --> 00:24:02,150 So, you know, every mentoring programme should come with some training for the mentors. 244 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:10,610 And if you ask me, the mentees. But, you know, as as programme designs and programme owners, we should definitely be preparing mentors, 245 00:24:10,610 --> 00:24:14,510 making sure they've got the skills, making sure they know how to to apply them. 246 00:24:14,510 --> 00:24:21,350 And I think it's really empowering. If you get away from this advice based model of mentoring where the mentor has all the answers, 247 00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:27,650 the mentor asks the question, the mentor gives the answer. Yeah. You know, some of that might take place, but that's only half the story. 248 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:35,620 It's kind of half mentoring. The the skills of being able to say to somebody, what if you already tried, you know. 249 00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:37,940 Well, how has that gone? And what do you think you're going to do next? 250 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:43,940 And really facilitating that mentee to think through the different issues that are 251 00:24:43,940 --> 00:24:48,830 going on and to have the power basically to go make that change for themselves. 252 00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:56,620 Thanks so much to Kay for taking the time out of what I know is an incredibly busy schedule to talk to me about coaching ang mentoring. 253 00:24:56,620 --> 00:25:01,130 We're thinking a lot about peer mentoring in particular as Exeter at the moment. 254 00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:06,650 So it was a great to have the opportunity to talk to Kay in detail about how 255 00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:12,260 these things get off the ground and kind of how to kind of take that step back, 256 00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:19,370 start small and let the impact of mentoring kind of do the work for you and growing it, 257 00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:24,740 but also really focussing on the idea that mentoring is not a knowledge base. 258 00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:30,400 It's a skill set. It's not about having all the answers. It's about helping ask the right questions. 259 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,510 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 260 00:25:35,510 --> 00:26:02,117 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to regular contributor Dr. Edward Mills about taking a break. As the flipside to my episode with Ellie Hassan before Christmas we discuss what it's like when you're not very good at taking breaks, and how we using our hobbies and interests to get ourselves away from the computer, and the culture of overwork. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,230 --> 00:00:15,870 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece. 2 00:00:15,870 --> 00:00:32,270 And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:36,360 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,280 I'm coming to you from a an almost two week break from work. 5 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:47,060 So I took a couple of weeks of annual leave and inspired by that, I wanted to do a second podcast episode about taking a break. 6 00:00:47,060 --> 00:00:52,370 So you might remember, I spoke to one of our PGR Ellie Hassan, before Christmas about taking a break. 7 00:00:52,370 --> 00:00:57,440 And she talked about the kind of really practical way she approaches her research 8 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,910 degree as a job and kind of doesn't feel guilty for taking these breaks. 9 00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:05,660 So I thought it might be good to come at it from the other side of the coin. 10 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:09,200 So I'm talking once again to a regular contributor. 11 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:20,690 I think we call him now Edward Mills, who is now Dr. Edward Mills, officially about being the kind of people that aren't very good at taking breaks, 12 00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:25,190 who regularly experience burnout, how we manage that, 13 00:01:25,190 --> 00:01:33,740 and also kind of what strategies we have in place and particularly kind of hobbies and activities we engage in. 14 00:01:33,740 --> 00:01:39,630 to basically force us to take those much, much needed breaks. 15 00:01:39,630 --> 00:01:48,380 Okay, so let's start with kind of a million dollar question is, which is why do you find it so difficult to take a break? 16 00:01:48,380 --> 00:01:56,600 I suppose it's just kind of the way I am really the risk of sounding a little bit like I'm sitting on a psychiatrist's couch. 17 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:03,290 It's it's sort of just the way I've always been at it. I don't quite know why, but I know what that means. 18 00:02:03,290 --> 00:02:11,510 In a practical sense. For me, it means that I'm always thinking about work in one way or another. 19 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:19,050 And it's quite difficult to train my brain out of that. Yeah, and I, I can relate to that in a lot of ways, but I think different. 20 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:24,080 I do know why I;m like that, and I think that's probably because of the job that I.m 21 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,460 in the you know, it's it's my job to understand these kind of cultures of work. 22 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:31,850 And I think there's an anxiety element to it. 23 00:02:31,850 --> 00:02:40,400 There's a perfectionism element to it, significant perfectionism, an element that kind of keeps you feeling like you you must keep working. 24 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,350 And I think being the product of a very particular kind of school system that, you know, 25 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:49,310 I went to old fashioned grammar school and it was very much kind of like you work 26 00:02:49,310 --> 00:02:55,550 constantly rather than thinking about kind of quality over quantity necessarily. 27 00:02:55,550 --> 00:03:01,160 And one thing to add on that front, actually, I think very often when you hear people say, 28 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:09,270 oh, I can't stop working, I'm always working, I find it hard to relax. That tends to be seen as something of a humble brag 29 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:14,460 It's not, though, it's not, though. No, this is the thing, really. Certainly, certainly in my case it's not. 30 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:18,090 I actually think that in many ways what I do is worse because of this. 31 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:22,530 This is it can be something of a problem. What I'm saying. 32 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:27,460 Oh, I'm saying. Oh, I'm always thinking about work. That doesn't mean that I'm always working. 33 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:34,320 No, what it actually means is that I'm always running on about 30 percent capacity. 34 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:40,260 Even when I should be running on 100 percent, I'm just running on 30 percent when I should also be running on zero percent. 35 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:44,190 What is it that that phrase that you said that your dad uses to describe you? 36 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:54,610 You're either flat, flat out or. Yeah, my my dad my dad had a phrase that he used to describe me, which is I have two speeds. 37 00:03:54,610 --> 00:04:01,860 I'm either flat out as in going flat out or flat out as in flat out on the floor. 38 00:04:01,860 --> 00:04:07,020 Which pretty much sums me up. I think it sums up a lot of people who do who do a PhD 39 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:10,620 By no means. By no means everybody. Nor is it an ideal to aim towards. 40 00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:14,370 No, but it is a common experience. And I've I've, as you know, 41 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:21,060 written a bit about this in a chapter that's coming out about the culture of overwork and imposter syndrome and the way that 42 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:27,410 that feeds into this kind of really complex and toxic culture of kind of we'll just sit in front of a computer and work, 43 00:04:27,410 --> 00:04:28,200 work, work. 44 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:37,680 But also, you know, the the challenge when you're so invested in the work that you do because you have to be to motivate yourself to to do research, 45 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,720 it's difficult to leave that behind. 46 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:46,440 I think I'm apart from the fact that I've kind of it's my job and it's now my research to reflect on these things. 47 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:54,410 I think, you know, having been an academic and I, I always say that I was a very successful academic, 48 00:04:54,410 --> 00:05:01,950 but I was also a very unsuccessful at being an academic in the sense that, you know, I've got good module evaluations. 49 00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:06,660 I presented my work at conferences, I got publications, I brought in research funding. Did all of the ticked all of the boxes. 50 00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:11,190 You've got to tick. But I burned myself out. 51 00:05:11,190 --> 00:05:16,680 I did it twice in the space of five years. And in very different ways. 52 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:24,660 Very different reasons. But overwork is that is at the heart of it and not being able to really manage work life balance. 53 00:05:24,660 --> 00:05:31,440 And that's why I stopped being an academic. I learnt that actually I wasn't very good at putting those boundaries in place. 54 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:37,890 And that's why, you know, and I've talked I talk about it a lot. That's why I went into professional services, because it's it's more nine to five. 55 00:05:37,890 --> 00:05:46,800 It's encourages work life balance more. And given the kind of person that I am, it's better for me to manage. 56 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,330 And I suspect that this will come up in the discussion that we have today. 57 00:05:49,330 --> 00:06:03,750 But one of the things to bear in mind when we talk about what I do to to to relax and how I do that is the fact that I I don't have young children, 58 00:06:03,750 --> 00:06:06,840 you know, or really all that many caring responsibilities. 59 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:16,050 If you want a good example of how diverse people's experiences of engagement with academia are. 60 00:06:16,050 --> 00:06:17,970 Some people, those of you who are on Twitter, 61 00:06:17,970 --> 00:06:28,410 will probably have seen the response recently to academic who who tweeted piece of advice on how they have had 75 published pieces since 2008. 62 00:06:28,410 --> 00:06:30,700 I think it was. 63 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:38,610 And the responses to that are very interesting because they they highlight how many people are juggling academia with caring responsibilities, 64 00:06:38,610 --> 00:06:43,980 with families, with other jobs, with independent research, with other work. 65 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:50,260 And that's not something that I myself have necessarily got much experience in doing. 66 00:06:50,260 --> 00:06:56,520 No and it is very much that really old fashioned now mantra publish or perish within the academy. 67 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:02,910 And it you know, it links into these things about metrics and outputs and the way that we kind of that we value the 68 00:07:02,910 --> 00:07:07,590 outcomes of research in terms of the REF and the way that we value teaching in the in the TEF 69 00:07:07,590 --> 00:07:11,070 And now the KEP has launched. So we got all of the Fs 70 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:15,690 And I think that the really important thing there is well, there's two really important things. 71 00:07:15,690 --> 00:07:19,860 One is that this is the culture of higher education. 72 00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:28,410 And so, too, it's a kind of go against that and take breaks and have a work life balance and practise self care. 73 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:34,990 All of these things are a kind of quite a complex, difficult and brave act. 74 00:07:34,990 --> 00:07:41,460 And because you're going against the system essentially. So I often do this and I do a career talk. 75 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:47,280 It's called I call it an alternative career talk that kind of maps, my career path and work on, if possible, career story. 76 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,960 And it's very good. Yeah, lots of people have seen it lots of times. 77 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,250 I guess it's it's the classic kind of will will carry out talk about this. 78 00:07:56,250 --> 00:08:01,920 But it's it is a reflection on why I stopped being an academic and a lot of ways and I talk about my 79 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,270 life when I was an academic and fact that I was working seven days a week on a four day week contract. 80 00:08:06,270 --> 00:08:08,860 And I was working, you know, from 8 81 00:08:08,860 --> 00:08:17,250 In the morning to 9 o'clock at night, and I was completely burnt out and I had literally no life, I had no you know, I lived away from my family. 82 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:24,320 I moved to a new place. I wasn't able to make friends because I was working all the time and. 83 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,260 They kind of really negative space that got me into. 84 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:35,210 And what I've got now and one of the things I talk about now is kind of, you know, the fact that I enjoy my job and I'm good at what I do, 85 00:08:35,210 --> 00:08:49,310 but also that I have these miraculous things called hobbies and interests that I just was not able to have when I was when I was an academic. 86 00:08:49,310 --> 00:08:54,200 And I'm not like I always sort of say I'm not suggesting that you can't do these things as an academic. 87 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,470 I'm saying that I couldn't do these things as an academic. It's very personal. 88 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:01,880 And I think in many ways you should do these things as you absolutely should. I just wasn't right. 89 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,900 And I know lots of people who managed to do it. I'm not very good at it. 90 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:11,780 And it's one of those difficult kind of reflections where you go, actually, 91 00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:15,320 I'm really good at this thing, you know, being an academic and there's things about it I love. 92 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:21,620 But actually it and I aren't really suited for each other in lots of different ways. 93 00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:24,860 And I just wasn't very good at managing that. 94 00:09:24,860 --> 00:09:29,270 But now, as I said, I work an environment that's more nine to five. 95 00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:34,190 So I have that, you know, I have that privilege, I guess. 96 00:09:34,190 --> 00:09:41,540 And it's much more encouraged. But I am much more having burn out so significantly a couple of times. 97 00:09:41,540 --> 00:09:51,500 I am more diligent with myself in recognising the signs, but also be kind of engaging in hobbies and practising self care. 98 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:55,370 And if you follow me on Twitter, you'll know that I talk about this non-stop. 99 00:09:55,370 --> 00:10:01,880 And I've got a book chapter coming out about it. So it's it's it's become the thing to talk about, but to talk honestly about it. 100 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,290 And sometimes that's saying, you know, I'm not very good at it. So. 101 00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:13,290 Thinking about that and we can talk about some of mine in a minute, but like what are your what are your hobbies? 102 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:20,370 What are you. What are the things that you do to take you away from the research that force you into a break? 103 00:10:20,370 --> 00:10:25,770 You know, if we change languages here is would basically be a GCSE French speaking exam. 104 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:29,580 Always the linguist. Sorry, everybody. No. 105 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:32,980 So to answer the question, there's a few, I think. 106 00:10:32,980 --> 00:10:39,660 And they fall into a couple of different categories. The general thing that connects them is organised fun. 107 00:10:39,660 --> 00:10:44,020 And in the I love organised fun. I know in the in my research for this 108 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:47,670 I went up and looked looked up the phrase organised fun favourite definition 109 00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:51,930 for it comes in the ever reliable and ever well sourced urban dictionary, 110 00:10:51,930 --> 00:10:59,670 which describes it as a compulsory activity organised to work, intended to be fun. 111 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:05,430 But in fact, so lame that it's impossible to actually enjoy ourselves or words to that effect. 112 00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:10,500 They they don't know me. I disagree with that as well. 113 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:18,300 I've tended to find that because I am generally just not very good at sitting with my feet up and doing nothing. 114 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:25,860 I tend to gravitate towards activities that have a measurable goal or outcome to them. 115 00:11:25,860 --> 00:11:35,430 So longtime listeners to this podcast. Know, that a few months ago I talked about the benefits of going very fast down a hill on a bike. 116 00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:42,240 I can now confirm I'm actually going slightly slower down the hills on bikes than I was and certainly a lot slower going up the hills on bikes. 117 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:43,860 Better. I was who I was before. 118 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:55,170 But with the resumption of organised sport activities, I've got back into cycling with other people again, which is really fun. 119 00:11:55,170 --> 00:12:03,330 It combines the social benefits of seeing other people with not having to just sit and argue, where will we go next? 120 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:12,290 Because you're constantly moving, which is always a benefit. Also, cafe stops because cafes are good. 121 00:12:12,290 --> 00:12:22,240 If exercise is one of the things I do, though, I think the trend towards organised fun is something that I'd kind of carry elsewhere as well. 122 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:30,610 So one subject that I have not spoken about before on this podcast is scale modelling. 123 00:12:30,610 --> 00:12:39,410 This is something I have gotten into lately. It is quite possibly the geekiest hobby I've ever had. 124 00:12:39,410 --> 00:12:44,660 And that's saying something. Yes, but it effectively involves making scale models using little kits 125 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:50,210 Nice. So there is a shelf next to next to the desk that I use, 126 00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:56,720 which is basically full of little models of aircraft in terms of time investment vs. money spent. 127 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:05,900 They're actually pretty good because for 10 pounds you can get about four or five hours of building out of it. 128 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:12,170 Effectively, you can do it well or you can do it like I do, which is badly. 129 00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:15,590 But however you do it, what a hobby. 130 00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:20,570 Like scale modelling or I think in your case, is it Lego? 131 00:13:20,570 --> 00:13:27,260 Yes, it's like I would do. Is it will it's a bit difficult to do Lego badly. 132 00:13:27,260 --> 00:13:31,880 I think I would manage it. But whatever the hobby is, and however you do it 133 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,640 The benefit of a hobby like that is that it forces you to spend time away from the screen. 134 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,020 And this is something I think I spoke about on the podcast about writing up a few months back. 135 00:13:42,020 --> 00:13:48,680 about getting away from the screen while still doing something is the main way really in which I relax. 136 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:53,030 And I think that, like, you know, you said the Lego and I think it's a key example for me. 137 00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:58,360 You know, it's it's very much the same. It has to be organised, kind of goal oriented. 138 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:07,940 I like following instructions. I'm just that kind of person. And so doing things like building diaogon alley out of Lego 139 00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:16,190 And, you know, the other thing I do with my time, which is sewing or various forms of crafting and crochet, I do embroidery and cross stitch. 140 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:20,450 Any any of the crafting. I like the productiveness of it. 141 00:14:20,450 --> 00:14:27,980 I feel like it. I think there's an inbuilt thing of feeling, not feeling like I'm wasting time, like I'm getting this. 142 00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:32,090 There's physical output to it. So it's going back to that kind of output mentality. 143 00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:40,280 You know, if there's a dress or a jacket or a shawl or a jumper that says I just need some space surrounded by planets, 144 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,530 that's something I'm currently working on. But I love the idea of the Airfix Excellence Framework 145 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:50,600 The Lego Excellence Framework. The LEF. Yeah, the LEF. But all of yeah. 146 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,130 All of these things kind of are very instructions oriented. You kind of create something out of it. 147 00:14:55,130 --> 00:14:56,210 Even with the Lego, you know, 148 00:14:56,210 --> 00:15:05,210 I've got I'm looking at various bits of Hogwarts are to the left of me and then diagon alley in the hallway to the right 149 00:15:05,210 --> 00:15:09,920 Hogwarts to the left of me diagon alley to the right. Here I am stuck in the middle. Yes, very much so. 150 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,450 But it's you know, there's there's that sense of output. 151 00:15:14,450 --> 00:15:20,890 But I think for me, coming from a creative background, there's a creativity element to it, particularly to the crafting and the sewing 152 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:26,690 You know that there is that element that, you know, is in my personality. 153 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:30,260 But also there's an awful lot of research about the impact of creativity and creative, 154 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:38,210 active activities on wellbeing and on kind of personal identity and self kind of realisation, 155 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:45,530 actualisation, all this of stuff, which is why creative practises are used in therapeutic context, right? 156 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:52,520 Absolutely. And if I can go off on a slight tangent here with respect to some of the research that I've done, 157 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:59,090 there's a lot of evidence that in creative writing or their most effective ways to do this and to get outputs, 158 00:15:59,090 --> 00:16:02,570 to use that terminology again, is to work on the constraints. 159 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:10,340 The Olipou movement in post-war France wrote about this idea of 160 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:16,370 constrained literature whereby in order to motivate yourself and to stimulate yourself, 161 00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:24,050 you give yourself limits within which to work. The most famous example of this is  George Perec, who published entire novel that. 162 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:36,080 Doesn't use the letter E once. Yes. And I think this feeds into the idea of harnessing your personality rather than trying to fight against it. 163 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:45,440 If you are a working person, by which I mean if you're someone who struggles to switch off, switch off. 164 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,740 And still switch off. And again, I hasten to add, that can often be a very bad thing. 165 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:52,550 It's absolutely always a very bad thing. 166 00:16:52,550 --> 00:17:02,030 The best way to relax, therefore, is to acknowledge that and give yourself something else to do rather than to try and say no. 167 00:17:02,030 --> 00:17:07,730 Now I am going to relax. The important thing in that case is that you do give yourself things to do. 168 00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:10,770 Otherwise, when you're on your day off, you will. 169 00:17:10,770 --> 00:17:15,940 Find yourself itching just to maybe reply to that one e-mail, it wants to feel like you've not wasted your day. 170 00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:20,130 Yeah, and I think that is kind of that's another bit of it, 171 00:17:20,130 --> 00:17:25,080 because the days where I don't do very much and like, you know, I've just come back from some annual leave. 172 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:35,130 And actually I was incredibly tired because we've been working flat out since January and there's a global pandemic and, you know, all of these things. 173 00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:40,680 And so I did a lot of sleeping or resting and I didn't actually get to do any 174 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,610 any sewing or any of my kind of hobby type stuff until the end of last week. 175 00:17:44,610 --> 00:17:46,630 And I was really frustrated. I was like, I have waste. 176 00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:55,680 I've wasted wasted the time because the idea that you don't have an output to your time is is really difficult for me. 177 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:02,460 And so I think what you're saying about harnessing your personality and finding it's you know, it's the stuff I talk about in terms of self care. 178 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:07,500 It's finding what works for you as a person because it will be incredibly specific. 179 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:17,070 And hobbies always are incredibly specific. And, you know, sometimes you have to you know, I've I tend to be kind of instructions oriented. 180 00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:24,170 But during the pandemic, I finally committed to taking up the ukulele and had one for a couple of years. 181 00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:31,980 But I hadn't I'd sort of mucked around with it but I hadn't really learnt. But my neighbour, two doors down is a ukulele teacher, so we could have outside lessons. 182 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:36,930 And it all seemed perfect. And kind of that's been quite a different its creative still 183 00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:42,300 But there's been quite different thing for me because it doesn't have the end product and goal in quite the same way. 184 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:50,250 So but, you know, I find that once I get practising and playing stuff and kind of singing along to my kind of favourite songs, 185 00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:54,780 which tend to be either kind of 90s pop or the Beatles, 186 00:18:54,780 --> 00:19:04,860 I don't really have a very diverse taste in music then you know that I find that so soothing and so relaxing. 187 00:19:04,860 --> 00:19:09,990 And that's been quite a different thing for me because, like, it it's not that kind of goal oriented. 188 00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:15,870 And also it's something it's something you can do badly. My version of you have to I have to accept that which I'm not very good at. 189 00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:20,970 As a perfectionist, I'm not very good at not immediately being very good at something. 190 00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:29,910 That's been a really tough lesson to learn. Weirdly, my version of that, my kind of slightly less constrained but still creative, 191 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:34,050 blowing the boundaries between doing nothing and having a rigid set of instructions. 192 00:19:34,050 --> 00:19:40,870 Practise is also musical. It is making arrangements of entirely inappropriate songs for Brass Band. 193 00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:46,200 For Brass Band. Yes. Shout out to Exeter Railway Band look us up. 194 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,510 We have a website and a Twitter page as well. So I've been trying to arrange pop songs, 195 00:19:51,510 --> 00:20:02,100 venga boys Medley's songs from Frozen for Brass Band because I can't imagine anything better than frozen for brass band. 196 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:11,040 No, it is a step into the unknown, though. You have got to be careful. Niches Frozen 2 joke. 197 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,570 And I think the harnessing of personality thing obviously is is central to this. 198 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:23,790 But also I, like a lot of people, really struggled with this kind of thing when the pandemic started. 199 00:20:23,790 --> 00:20:30,960 So the pandemic started. And, you know, my concept of work life balance and and everything really went out the window. 200 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:42,660 And I had to manage my working day in a very different way because, you know, my working life and my home life are now very much integrated. 201 00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:48,460 And so I had to recalibrate a lot of that. And I actually found myself. You know, 202 00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:52,590 and in part due to kind of the fatigue that we all experienced as kind of part 203 00:20:52,590 --> 00:20:56,490 of lockdowns and everything pointing it were difficult to do these things. 204 00:20:56,490 --> 00:21:00,840 So actually, I, I tried to make them into a habit. 205 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,760 So I have I this is I mean, this is a revelation into my personality. 206 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:17,370 I have reminders on my phone of like chores and tasks I need to do every day. And I added things like read a chapter of a book or, you know, 207 00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:27,570 sew one seam or one step in a garment to just try and push myself to do those things. 208 00:21:27,570 --> 00:21:34,350 And some days, you know, all that I could cope with mentally and physically was to read that one chapter and to say that one seam 209 00:21:34,350 --> 00:21:41,720 But of course, more often than not, you start. And it spirals and. 210 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:48,410 I found that really helpful as a way to kind of I don't do anymore to have these reminders because I've got back into it, 211 00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:53,270 but it's it was a real kind of way to kick start me back into. 212 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:56,900 And again, it's harnessing my personality, isn't it? I mean, 213 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,230 I like to tick things off. I don't like having red dots on my phone. 214 00:22:00,230 --> 00:22:08,270 So having it in that way and utilising this kind of lists and reminders was a way to get me back into doing it. 215 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:13,700 Yeah, kind of like like coaching a football team made of herbs. 216 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:18,770 A lot of it comes down to time management. Oh, that's terrible. Thank you very much. 217 00:22:18,770 --> 00:22:28,760 But if I were in that situation, I would also put things like do an airfix model or go for a bike ride on my list. 218 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,620 I certainly do put them into my diary, my planner 219 00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:38,390 Yeah, because that's an important part of making sure that those are treated as part of your. 220 00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:44,430 Day to day life and thereby ingraining that sort of time off. 221 00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:49,490 That is might be better described as time doing other stuff here into your routine. 222 00:22:49,490 --> 00:22:57,190 Mm hmm. Absolutely. And. It's so I guess to. 223 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:04,210 To end on, we've talked about kind of how we force ourselves to take breaks and the hobbies and the interest 224 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:09,700 that we have and about the importance of harnessing your personality to make it work to you. 225 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:14,320 So I guess if somebody is out there and they're thinking, okay, but I don't know, you know, 226 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:20,980 how do I find the Harry Potter Lego sets are my thing or sewing or arranging bengaboys for brass band? 227 00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:28,750 How how how have you gone on that journey to kind of find those those things that work for you? 228 00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:30,100 That's a difficult one to answer, 229 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:39,650 particularly given that as time as recording opportunities for discovering these kinds of things are a little bit more limited. 230 00:23:39,650 --> 00:23:46,750 Yes, they were. So, I mean, I wouldn't have discovered my interest in arranging for brass band had I not been in a brass band already. 231 00:23:46,750 --> 00:23:53,380 I wouldn't have discovered my interest in scale modelling had I not been able to one day be walking through a garden centre, 232 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:57,880 see some airfix and think, oh, I might have a go at this. 233 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:05,170 But my general advice is, as banal as it might be, would be to explore it. 234 00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:11,920 Look at what I think about what kinds of things you like to do rather than emerging in terms of. 235 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,750 Oh. I wouldn't like to do this or I would like to do this. 236 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:20,850 Think about what you value in an activity and take it from there. 237 00:24:20,850 --> 00:24:26,610 Yeah, and I think for me, actually, this is an interesting point of reflection, 238 00:24:26,610 --> 00:24:38,550 which is that the things that I come back to are the things that I was interested in as a child and as a teenager that really dropped off when, 239 00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:40,680 you know, if you're. 240 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:47,850 If you're a you know, a dancer or an actor or a performer, you know, I did all of those things, you kind of end up dedicating all of your time to it. 241 00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:51,090 And and then I became an academic and I dedicated all of my time to that. 242 00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:54,850 And so I went back to those things that I really loved as a child. 243 00:24:54,850 --> 00:24:58,870 And one of those was building Lego. One of those was crafting. It wasn't sewinf 244 00:24:58,870 --> 00:25:03,850 It was actually doing cross stitch. I was like an 80 year old lady, an eight year old body. 245 00:25:03,850 --> 00:25:07,290 But reading. And, you know, all of those things. 246 00:25:07,290 --> 00:25:13,890 They were actually things that I really loved when I was younger. And I've I've rediscovered them as an adult. 247 00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:20,160 Which brings me an awful lot of joy. It helps me maintain a work life balance. 248 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:30,870 And it maintains my status as to quote my my nephew, the coolest aunt in the world, because everybody, 249 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:37,740 every 11 year old boy wants an aunt with an extensive Harry Potter Lego collection. 250 00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:44,880 I think the activiriwa that you you might enjoy now and activities you enjoyed when you were younger might take on different forms. 251 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:50,190 It's worth noting, you know, that if you enjoyed playing with Lego as a child, 252 00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:54,540 you might not enjoy playing with Lego as an adult although you probably would. 253 00:25:54,540 --> 00:26:00,540 It might be that that sort of construction idea and that the idea of building things and following instructions. 254 00:26:00,540 --> 00:26:05,790 Yeah. Might be the thing to look for rather than necessarily sticking rigidly to Lego. 255 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:10,980 But yes, I think it's exploring and thinking about those interests that you've had only said the things that 256 00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:16,200 you value and the things that you've always enjoyed and trying to kind of follow follow that path. 257 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:22,220 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much to Edward for joining me for this week's episode. 258 00:26:22,220 --> 00:26:29,850 And yeah, go out and find those things that interest you and excite you. 259 00:26:29,850 --> 00:26:31,290 And please, please, please. 260 00:26:31,290 --> 00:26:40,600 If you get the opportunity, do try and build Lego as an adult, you will be really surprised at how much you still enjoy it. 261 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,720 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 262 00:26:45,720 --> 00:27:12,332 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Lizzie Hubson about her experience of doing non-traditional research, using creative research methods to undertake research in Cultural Geography. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,230 --> 00:00:13,640 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:32,180 I'm your host, Kelly Prwwxw, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:37,190 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. It's Kelly Preece here 4 00:00:37,190 --> 00:00:44,900 And today, I'm delighted to be bringing you an episode about non traditional research or approaching research, 5 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:50,090 and research methodologies in non-traditional ways, the benefits, the challenges. 6 00:00:50,090 --> 00:00:54,260 So I'm delighted to welcome Lizzie Hobson who is the PGR in geography. 7 00:00:54,260 --> 00:00:58,220 Lizzie, are you happy to introduce yourself? I'm 8 00:00:58,220 --> 00:01:06,530 Lizzie Hobson from the Geography Department here at Exeter I'm a PhD student in the final kind of throes and stages. 9 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:11,330 So I'm spending most of my time writing up. 10 00:01:11,330 --> 00:01:21,200 So I guess now I would call myself a cultural geographer. That means I'm mostly interested in the development of landscape theory and geography and 11 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:28,410 perhaps more broadly about geography of writing kind of effectivity and performance. 12 00:01:28,410 --> 00:01:38,620 Brilliant. Thank you. So the what we gonna talk about today is, quote unquote, doing non-traditional research. 13 00:01:38,620 --> 00:01:40,470 So so kind of unpack back a little. 14 00:01:40,470 --> 00:01:50,550 Can you talk about how how your research breaks the kind of traditional mode of what we expect research to look like a doctoral level? 15 00:01:50,550 --> 00:01:57,200 So a lot of my work is very methods based rather than 16 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:04,350 And so I kind of engage with theory in a more of a framing statement kind of way and think about how we can 17 00:02:04,350 --> 00:02:11,010 think about ideas kind of differently when we experiment with styles of writing and modes of presentation. 18 00:02:11,010 --> 00:02:14,820 I guess maybe in the simplest sense 19 00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:21,600 my project is about therapeutic landscapes and encounters to think about the therapeutic as kind 20 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:29,910 of residing more in the encounters between bodies and landscapes and in body practises. 21 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:36,110 The problem with some of this research is that it puts forward this kind of. 22 00:02:36,110 --> 00:02:44,130 And this is me speaking in a in a general sense, an argument that's led to what we can call the medicalisation of landscape amd nature. 23 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:50,520 I try and open up what we might judge, as having kind of restorative or recuperative qualities. 24 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:57,330 And what recovery might mean. And I'm particularly interested in how creative practises might open up some 25 00:02:57,330 --> 00:03:03,240 of these spaces and address some of these questions in more open ended ways, 26 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,060 I guess its pretty, quite useful to go through an example of my work. 27 00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:14,680 So a part of my project is kind of laid out into three. And I got. 28 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:22,460 A really good opportunity to go to Ithica, which is a small island and part of Greece, 29 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:31,120 is not a traditional health pilgrimage site in the way Lourdes might be, but it is kind of a health landscape of sorts. 30 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:38,200 But it kind of ties with these ideas of the therapeutic come from kind of its Greek mythology. 31 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:45,490 So I didn't do Latin or Greek in school. So I was kind of really unfamiliar with these ideas before I got to Ithica 32 00:03:45,490 --> 00:03:55,480 But Ithica is supposedly the home of Odysseus, who is kind of thought to have spent this 10 years mega journey battling sea monsters and 33 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,660 going through all kinds of mental torment just to kind of return to his beloved homeland, 34 00:03:59,660 --> 00:04:09,370 Ithica. And then because of this and with the help of the poet C.P. Caffery, who wrote this famous poem, Ithica, and for many, 35 00:04:09,370 --> 00:04:18,280 Ithica has come to symbolise this kind of legendary journey that every person makes through life as they look for their own kind of personal Ithica. 36 00:04:18,280 --> 00:04:22,480 And it's become this metaphor for a kind of supreme goal 37 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:29,710 this kind of sweet homeland where you'll find a kind of internal calmness and satisfaction. 38 00:04:29,710 --> 00:04:37,730 When I was in Ithica, I was lucky enough to spend some time with an archaeologist who took me to Homer's Palace 39 00:04:37,730 --> 00:04:45,850 no Homer's School, which is also thought to be the ruins of Odysseus' palace. 40 00:04:45,850 --> 00:04:49,770 And the thing is, when you go there, you expect this kind of super 41 00:04:49,770 --> 00:04:57,850 grand place like ticketed off kind of all official like English heritage or national trust, what you see with them. 42 00:04:57,850 --> 00:05:01,600 When I got those kind of none of that. And that's really super glad 43 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,190 to have my guide because I wouldn't have known what I was looking at. 44 00:05:06,190 --> 00:05:11,130 There's basically one kind of placket saying you enter the site at your own risk 45 00:05:11,130 --> 00:05:15,850 as it isn't stable and then nothing telling you what you were looking at. 46 00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:24,250 So I kind of started thinking about these kind of grand myths and legends and standing amongst this place that was kind of. 47 00:05:24,250 --> 00:05:30,460 Full of rubble. And I started experimenting with knitting as a practise, 48 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:39,060 and I didn't if you know those kind of old school geography diagrams where you get those different layers like sediment. 49 00:05:39,060 --> 00:05:43,090 And then you've got the granite layer that's a bit harder on sits on top and lasts a bit longer. 50 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:49,440 And I think it's probably actually the other way around. But I was thinking about knitting a bit like that. 51 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:57,010 So knitting is kind of a way to bring the landscapes, kind of absences and presences in gaps into life. 52 00:05:57,010 --> 00:06:02,140 So when I was there, I was kind of interested in the materiality of the place. 53 00:06:02,140 --> 00:06:06,650 That was kind of caught up in this very real process of erosion. 54 00:06:06,650 --> 00:06:11,290 And lack of funds have kind of stopped any kind of like 55 00:06:11,290 --> 00:06:20,110 Oh, gosh, archaeological work. And nothing was kind of roped off in the way Stonehenge was. 56 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:27,670 When I was talking to my friend, my participant, before I went out on this this trip with the archaeologist, 57 00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:31,480 her partner actually knew the site I mentioned because he was there. 58 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:32,620 Oh, yeah, I've been there. 59 00:06:32,620 --> 00:06:41,500 I do rock climbing and kind of parkour there as a substitute because there's no gyms, you know, outside it's site for outdoor exercise for him, 60 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:49,870 which are kind of real madness when you think about heritage site regulations kind of here in the UK. 61 00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:54,610 And yeah, I also got to spend a lot time looking at Ithica's museum collections, 62 00:06:54,610 --> 00:07:02,620 some of the artefacts are kind of rumoured to be linked to as evidence that this was Odysseus' home place. 63 00:07:02,620 --> 00:07:13,630 So, yeah, we looked at these fragments of kind of urns and tripods and it meant to be gifts to Odysseus and kind of spoke to this magical place. 64 00:07:13,630 --> 00:07:24,640 But they also kind of opened up the space to talk about anticipating loss and curated decay and kind of heritage, those potentially beyond saving. 65 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:30,900 So when you kind of through the process of knitting and forming and reforming the landscape, 66 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:35,890 it kind of became for me not just about this this magical tale 67 00:07:35,890 --> 00:07:44,980 but about visible mending, decision making and uncertain times and ideas about unbuilding in the process of preservation. 68 00:07:44,980 --> 00:07:48,810 So I started thinking about Ithica, this place of mining memories. 69 00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:53,500 So that's kind of just one example of my practise. 70 00:07:53,500 --> 00:07:58,900 I've done different things and in different places. 71 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:03,840 That's completely and utterly fascinating. 72 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:12,620 So, okay, so you've talked about the ways in which your kind of research methods are not traditional. 73 00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:20,960 How how does these practises or things like knitting and the way that if I'm understanding correctly, 74 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:30,020 that knitting is kind of a practise of recreate and exposing those kind of different layers within these sites? 75 00:08:30,020 --> 00:08:34,980 How how does that form for part of a of a doctoral thesis? 76 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:44,360 You know, as we said before we started recording, I'm I'm very as an art, as a kind of ex artist and lecturer in the arts. 77 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,040 I am very familiar with this kind of practise. 78 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,770 But thinking about the kind of people out there that are doing very traditional research that don't have a clue about 79 00:08:51,770 --> 00:08:58,040 how kind of these sorts of practises can be incorporated for a research project or be kind of an outcome of research. 80 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:06,770 How does that work? Like I'm sure quite a lot of different disciplines do is that I keep kind of a field. 81 00:09:06,770 --> 00:09:15,170 note journal. And instead of just classically kind of doing interviews or something like that, I kind of. 82 00:09:15,170 --> 00:09:19,830 And then I do a bit of that as well. But, you know, and keep a diary. 83 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:24,400 But I also do like lots of sketches and things out in the landscape and things like that. 84 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:34,250 So when like and like anyone else, I then write it up when I when I get back and I'm making a lot more kind of it out. 85 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:38,080 I'm kind of. Impressive. So it goes alongside a text 86 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:44,080 So in the case of the kittting, I kind of I write 87 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:49,000 Conceptually thing about ruins and kind of ruination in an essay format. 88 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,610 And then I also present my my knitting alongside that. 89 00:09:55,610 --> 00:10:01,990 In that kind of works in photograph form. 90 00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:08,170 I was really interested to hear you describe it as an artist sketchbook. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, isn't it? 91 00:10:08,170 --> 00:10:09,970 Does this do a disservice? 92 00:10:09,970 --> 00:10:16,090 That's when one of the thingsmy supervisors said when I think, no, you know, it's probably the best way of encapsulating it. 93 00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:21,780 It's almost more like a magazine than a traditional...more like a magazine. 94 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:28,640 Again, this is probably the wrong terminology, but. Yeah, so I have. 95 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:37,580 I have to. I have a lot of I link back to the academic literature, but for me, I'm not practise based. 96 00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:45,170 I haven't gone by performance. And it kind of opens up another huge kind of can of worms around. 97 00:10:45,170 --> 00:10:49,940 what creative methods are who uses them? That thing for me. 98 00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:56,240 It's a way of. Kind of. Using creative methods is a process as a way of kind of slowing down what we think 99 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,110 we know when I'm sitting with kind of uncomfortable moments at the discipline. 100 00:11:02,110 --> 00:11:06,950 And I guess if you were going more by performance, you obviously have your your final end piece. 101 00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:14,490 And that looks very different to what I'm kind of talking about at a non-traditional thesis. 102 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:22,600 Yeah, absolutely. And like what you're talking about and how you're talking about it, really. 103 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:30,230 The kind of methodology that your approach you're approaching in that artist's sketchbook really it sounds, you know, 104 00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:36,640 to make a parallel for people who aren't familiar with this kind of thing, it really sounds like kind of how you document ethnographic fieldwork. 105 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:48,400 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's very similar in its approach, but it's taking more creative forms of documentation and. 106 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:53,590 Thinking about data in a much, much broader. 107 00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:58,140 And way as kind of being beyond. 108 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:06,410 And, you know, words, numbers, which a lot of our kind of data and research tends to be either numerical or linguistic. 109 00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:13,900 But also thinking about. Practises of knowledge and understanding that go beyond the numerical and the linguistic. 110 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:23,270 So, you know, I'm thinking as a as a  person with an arts background. You know, we talk to a lot about experiential learning. 111 00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:37,010 And wht we would call embodied knowing say things that you might know through experience or intuition that you can't necessarily put into language. 112 00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:50,060 So it sounds to me like you're incorporating all of those different forms of knowledge and learning into kind of one really rich set of data. 113 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:57,120 Yeah. It's all about non-representational theory and. 114 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:04,690 And yeah embodied and bodied ways and bodily ways of knowing. And I think that that's that's one of the challenges, right, 115 00:13:04,690 --> 00:13:17,790 of doing this kind of research in an academic environment that even though it's actually not new to approach research in this kind of way, it's still. 116 00:13:17,790 --> 00:13:20,490 I don't want to always say looked down on, because that isn't always the case, 117 00:13:20,490 --> 00:13:27,720 but it's it's not valued in the same way sort of across the sector or across all disciplines 118 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:33,840 in higher education that more traditional research methods and forms of knowledge are. 119 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:41,520 And that's really one of the key. I would imagine one of the key challenges of doing research in this way is kind of having to. 120 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,650 To justify it to the to the wider academy is that something that you experience? 121 00:13:46,650 --> 00:13:51,420 I think I'm. I'm really lucky because I work in a little pocket. 122 00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:57,410 And so I've got a lot of kind of like minded people, which again, I guess is why in. 123 00:13:57,410 --> 00:14:03,790 Sometimes it's hard to stay outside and kind of go, oh, yeah, is just like ethnography, you know. 124 00:14:03,790 --> 00:14:09,580 But yeah, there's this challenge of kind of publication and how to judge creative work. 125 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:18,230 So, yeah, despite the fact that in my own discipline, there's this widespread support for kind of this creative turn within geography, 126 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:24,230 in this kind of acceptance or even understanding of alternative outputs 127 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:30,380 It's very varied even I guess by no means universal. Yeah, exactly. 128 00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:38,060 And I know I find kind of sometimes the articulation of trying to use traditional language like, 129 00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:44,070 you know, talking about all of the different things in your sketchbookas just different forms of data. 130 00:14:44,070 --> 00:14:50,920 That's, you know, it still has that. You know, you talked about writing the kind of theoretical and unpacking that is alongside it. 131 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:57,990 It still has that theoretical basis, still has that analysis. All of those things that other people are using to create knowledge. 132 00:14:57,990 --> 00:15:06,470 Yeah. So whether you're in politics or whether you're in engineering, you know, you're you're still doing collecting data and interpreting it and analysing it. 133 00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:11,360 And you are very much doing that. You're just doing that in a different way. 134 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:17,170 Yeah. And I think this is this. I really wish that I could come and be able to show you my work. 135 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:20,890 You know, because, yeah, my work is practise based. 136 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:24,200 You know, I know. I speak about it. I do it. 137 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,720 You know, and so it kind of comes up against these traditional forms a bit in a podcast but 138 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:36,350 a lot about the journal format, more, you know how well these places are kind of geared up for creative output. 139 00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:44,840 So I guess one of the issues I come up against in my thesis and which is going to for a whole nother kind of spanner in the works here. 140 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:50,090 But yes, so I do a part on Ithica and I also do your part on aerial silks and circus skills. 141 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:56,660 And so I'm interested in visual and movement, bodily movements in landscape. 142 00:15:56,660 --> 00:16:04,790 So I really my ideal situation would be being able to include these videos of performances 143 00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:12,140 of aerial silks by myself or my participants and demonstrating certain kind of silw routines, 144 00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:19,670 experiences with gravity in the air. But the traditional kind of word document doesn't really have this capacity. 145 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:28,160 So at the moment, I'm kind of working with including a load of load of visual like screenshots not screenshots 146 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,660 stills from these videos and kind of laid out like that old school kind of camera. 147 00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:38,860 reel, but. Ideally, I would be able to actually include video or someone read a paper. 148 00:16:38,860 --> 00:16:44,260 They'd be able to see the video instead of having to do the follow this link. No disruption. 149 00:16:44,260 --> 00:16:49,070 So you have to. Is imperfect and it's an imperfect option. 150 00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:53,640 So we talked about the challenges. Let's. Flip it on its head. 151 00:16:53,640 --> 00:17:00,270 What are the benefits of approaching a this way? What are the what are the benefits to the research? 152 00:17:00,270 --> 00:17:01,890 You know, on a kind of theoretical basis. 153 00:17:01,890 --> 00:17:09,570 But what are for you as a researcher what are the benefits and the development opportunities and the joys of doing research in this way? 154 00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:18,140 I guess for me. And I guess this is quite a personal thing, is that it's about doing something that you love. 155 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:21,500 That's sounds like cheesey. So I like super cheesy. 156 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:29,030 And I'm going to get even more cheesy because maybe it's because I'm getting to the end of my PhD 157 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:37,250 My partner's just finish and he's looking for jobs. And sometimes, yeah, my PhD is a gift. 158 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:43,550 Right. I get to spend four years of my life doing something that I enjoy and I want to do. 159 00:17:43,550 --> 00:17:47,870 And I'm very lucky that I got to write my own PhD and that I'm funded. 160 00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:54,100 So I'm aware that I speak from a privileged position here. 161 00:17:54,100 --> 00:18:02,170 But, yeah, I don't think despite all of the stresses that we've kind of talked about, that I could have done my PhD any other way. 162 00:18:02,170 --> 00:18:09,520 I kind of felt happy and true to myself and I was really doing something worthwhile. 163 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:15,200 So, yeah, I did. I'm very aware that sounds very idealistic. 164 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,240 I kind of spent the first. So I've done creative methods all the way through my undergrad. 165 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,370 Then in my Masters. I'm very lucky that I kind of fell on my feet and like there's a real hub for it in geography 166 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:33,680 And when I started, I was kind of. I never really thought I was ever gonna kind of go into further education, 167 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,150 and I was really lucky to have some very good mentors kind of help push me that way. 168 00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:43,010 But when I I thought, I don't know. I don't know what a thesis looks like. 169 00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:48,470 So I spent probably a bit over a year trying to write a traditional PhD 170 00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:54,890 I kind of resorted back to these traditional methodologies like interviews and things like that. 171 00:18:54,890 --> 00:18:57,740 And I really hated it. 172 00:18:57,740 --> 00:19:05,880 And I honestly think if I hadn't kind of started trusting myself again, I wouldn't have finished and I certainly would have been happy with it. 173 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:14,850 So. Yeah, I think. But I think it was just a necessity. 174 00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:20,520 So people tend to be really reticent to talk about their research in that kind of enthusiastic, 175 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:27,370 passionate and idealistic way, which is kind of bizarre on a number of levels because. 176 00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:37,390 You are not going to dedicate however many years of your life you take to do your research degree to a project. 177 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:45,900 If you're not incredibly passionate about it. And incredibly invested in it because you couldn't do it, you know, so. 178 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:50,470 And also what we respond when people talk about their research. 179 00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:57,310 Is their enthusiasm and their excitement. You know, that's that's the thing we respond to as human beings. 180 00:19:57,310 --> 00:19:59,230 Obviously, we respond to the content. 181 00:19:59,230 --> 00:20:06,270 But if someone you know, if someone's talking to you about their research and they sound really bored, you don't pay attention. 182 00:20:06,270 --> 00:20:15,130 And and it's really lovely to hear you talk about your research in that kind of enthusiastic and passionate way, 183 00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:21,500 because doing a research degree is hard. Like. I'm not trying to sugarcoat it, 184 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:29,130 but there are some things about it that are wonderful and positive and that kind of enthusiasm and passion is one of them. 185 00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:34,700 So what I like to do is to wrap up is ask people to offer some advice based on their experience. 186 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:39,010 So basically, you know, if people are. 187 00:20:39,010 --> 00:20:47,870 You know, looking at doing or have just started doing a research degree that involves these kind of creative methods. 188 00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:54,200 What advice would you give them based on your experience? What did you wish you knew when you started? 189 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,890 Yes, I guess from my kind of experience, I would say. 190 00:20:59,890 --> 00:21:03,100 That you probably have to compromise. 191 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:10,480 Compromise is probably the wrong word here, because if you're gonna do something so bold, then you need conviction. 192 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:18,960 But. I guess what I mean by compromise is that if you're going to experiment with styles and kind of modes of presentation, 193 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:25,870 then you kind of have an obligation to your reader to help them. Get where you're going. 194 00:21:25,870 --> 00:21:31,090 So for me, I have a framing statement that does a bit of this kind of donkey work. 195 00:21:31,090 --> 00:21:34,840 It kind of acts a bit like what I was kind of saying in the beginning. 196 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:43,160 Like, I kind of started talking about my method. If I hadn't stopped, it's situating them somewhere within the therapeutic landscapes literature. 197 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,380 So. I love creative writing. 198 00:21:48,380 --> 00:21:53,990 I do. That's my kind of niche, which I kind of. 199 00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:57,710 I go from there. I will start with creative writing. 200 00:21:57,710 --> 00:22:06,250 But for me, I had to kind of come to terms with the fact that there's gonna be some bits of my thesis that are not so beautifully written. 201 00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:12,860 Because there are times when I'm gonna need to hold my reader's hand and I need to put interludes between between the pieces because, 202 00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:17,300 you know, we jump from Ithica and then we go to the circus skills. 203 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:23,720 Right. So, yeah, compromise in a sense. 204 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:30,650 And I guess I'd also say that there's a need to take real care, I guess first picking up supervisors, 205 00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:39,500 but then also picking examiners to kind of see where you're coming from and see the value in your in your work. 206 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:44,360 I've had some encounters where peoplehave just thought they're nice pretty pictures. 207 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:48,470 But what are they doing? Ouch. My heart, you know. 208 00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:56,340 I've had others that I've really got what I'm trying to do and had really critical and productive conversation. 209 00:22:56,340 --> 00:22:59,360 So quite important. 210 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:08,660 Thanks so much to Lizzie for taking the time to talk to me about what is an incredibly fascinating project and about the real challenges, 211 00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:15,180 but also the real benefits of doing, quote unquote, non-traditional research. 212 00:23:15,180 --> 00:23:21,440 If there's something about your project that you're approaching non traditionally. I'd love to hear from you and to talk to you on the podcast. 213 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,280 I think it's really important that we share these stories and represent these 214 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:32,550 alternative ways of doing that increasingly aren't that alternative and becoming very mainstream. 215 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:38,750 But it can be scary to be the first one in your department to take that leap. And that's it for this episode. 216 00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:41,840 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 217 00:23:41,840 --> 00:24:08,448 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

Episode 23 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. We were going to call this episode "Two Guys, a Girl, and a Transforming Robot," but Duncan and Jeff prevailed upon Ben... somehow. Anyway! You've spent a year hearing the hosts of this podcast gush about Escaflowne, so now you get to hear it for another hundred-odd minutes. They go into the craft of the show's plot and characters, its historical and cultural context, and the mediocre feature-length remake that came out in 2000. Check it out! The post Inbetween 23 - Everyone Gets a Tragic Backstory (The Vision of Escaflowne) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 23 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. We were going to call this episode "Two Guys, a Girl, and a Transforming Robot," but Duncan and Jeff prevailed upon Ben... somehow. Anyway! You've spent a year hearing the hosts of this podcast gush about Escaflowne, so now you get to hear it for another hundred-odd minutes. They go into the craft of the show's plot and characters, its historical and cultural context, and the mediocre feature-length remake that came out in 2000. Check it out! The post Inbetween 23 - Everyone Gets a Tragic Backstory (The Vision of Escaflowne) first appeared on Key Frames.

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R Di and The Inbetweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Now I say episode, but I don't have an interview with a researcher for you this week. 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:51,000 There's a number of different reasons for that. One of which was that I was due to record an episode last Friday, 6 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:58,000 but I was off work the end of last week because I was suffering from a migraine 7 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,000 and I was just going to put out a kind of alert that said no episode this week. 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Back in two weeks time. 9 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:17,000 But actually, I wanted to acknowledge something, which is that like, hey, everyone I'm speaking to right now, I've hit a brick wall. 10 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:24,000 I'm really struggling with all of the screen time, struggling with migraines and headaches, struggling to sleep. 11 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:32,000 And I just wanted to share that with you, just to remind you that right now that experience is normal and it's okay. 12 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,000 And also, if that's what you're experiencing, please, please give yourself some time and some headspace. 13 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000 I had two days off work and another two days weekend away from the computer screen. 14 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:51,000 I still feel pretty kind of alert and stressed this week. I think it's my kind of fight or flight coming back into play. 15 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:59,000 But. I feel a lot better and I feel much more able to function than I did just a few days ago. 16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 So the phrase that I've been hearing a lot recently, when we ask each other how we are, 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:11,000 as we tend to do in that very British way, is people responding with pandemic fine. 18 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,000 So I'm not fine. I'm pandemic fine. These days. 19 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:25,000 I seem to have three moods. Pandemic fine. Pandemic breakdown or extreme cabin fever. 20 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,000 So this is just a quick message to say sorry, there's no epsiode this week. 21 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,000 I'm just finding it tough to sit down at my computer. 22 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:43,000 And if you're experiencing that, too, I'm here in solidarity with you and it's okay and it's normal. 23 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:51,000 You know, it's the new normal for us. And I'm I'm really hoping that things are going to. 24 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Continue to move in the right direction and change soon. And that's it for this episode. 25 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,000 Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 26 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:26,719 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk Edward Mills and Dr. Tom Hinton about their supervisory relationship, from exchanging their first speculative emails about the PhD to working together now on a postdoctoral project.  Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D and And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:31,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000 It's Kelly Preece. And today I'm gonna be talking to both sides of a PhD supervisory team to Edward Mills. 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:53,000 He's been on this podcast a few times, talking about writing up his thesis and preparing for your Viva is here today with his PhD supervisor 6 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:02,000 and now postdoc supervisor Dr. Thomas Hinton to talk about the supervisory relationship from both sides. 7 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:11,000 What makes a good supervisor? What makes a good supervisor? And what advice they have for other students and academics. 8 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,000 So, Tom, first, you happy to introduce yourself? Yes. 9 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,000 So I'm Tom Hinton. 10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:26,000 I'm a senior lecturer in French in the Department of Modern Languages, specialised in the Middle Ages, particularly medieval French and Occitan Fab. 11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Edward. Hello, my name's Edward. I am just in the process of finishing up my PhD 12 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:38,000 I've just submitted my corrections in modern languages. Work on many of these similar areas. 13 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Tom. Really Which is appropriate, I think, given the focus for for this podcast. 14 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,000 So, yeah, we're gonna talk about the supervisory relationship and the particular supervisory 15 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,000 relationship that Tom and Edward have experienced over the past four years. 16 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,000 I guess best thing to do is go right back to the start. Back to the beginning. 17 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:03,000 So how did you come to be Tom's student Edward? 18 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,000 So I am very fortunate. 19 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:18,000 I think on one thing which I am conscious of in this episode is I'm going to give everybody supervisor envy. But to go way back. 20 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,000 It actually happened because of an email that we sent out. 21 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:32,000 So I was working in France after finishing my master's and my masters supervisor who knew that myself, 22 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,000 another master's candidate, were interested in doing PhDs 23 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:43,000 occasionally sent out emails to us saying, you know, have you seen this opportunity for funding, this opportunity for funding and so on and so forth. 24 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:51,000 And it just so happened that Tom had sent one round about some funding that was available in Exeter, 25 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:59,000 mentioning that there were these three student ships and it would be great to have some mediaeval French representation 26 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:07,000 in amongst that this sort of new cohort and that French specific PhD funding was and still is quite rare. 27 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:18,000 So I sat down over Christmas five years ago and wrote an email, basically, and that's sort of where it started, isn't it, Tom? 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Really? Yeah, I think it's a I mean, that's how a lot of PhD supervisor relationships start, I think is through someone e-mailing in this case. 29 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,000 I was, as I would explain, 30 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:39,000 I was trying to be proactive in terms of putting feelers out to colleagues around the country to see if they had students who be interested. 31 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:47,000 And then you get an email in your inbox. And I think obviously it's important that the project is a good fit. 32 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,000 So it doesn't it doesn't have to be exactly what you're working on, but you have to, as a supervisor, 33 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,000 be able to see yourself giving good value, being the right person for that project. 34 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,000 In this case, it did so happen that it was remarkably close to what I was interested in. 35 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:10,000 And I think, um, the the topic immediately caught my interest. 36 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,000 So was that so that you said that there was funding available? 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:22,000 So was there an interview process? Did you like what kind of interaction did you have in advance of you starting Ed? 38 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Edward, did you speak on the phone or did you meet and get to meet in person or. 39 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,000 So we most did it via e-mail. I think Tom is not fair to say. 40 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,000 Yeah, I think almost entirely wasn't it I think. Yeah. I actually spoke face to face to you. 41 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,000 I don't think we ever spoke on the phone. But the time we spoke face to face, I think you already had your offer. 42 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,000 I think that's why. Yeah. So there was an application process. 43 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:57,000 I actually did something I wouldn't recommend to future applicants, which is I only applied for this one particular pot of funding. 44 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 I this was university funding rather than DTP funding. 45 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,000 So looking back, I was incredibly fortunate that I was successful in this respect. 46 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:12,000 I would definitely recommend applying for funding in as many places as possible. 47 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,000 But in terms of the particular funding stream that I was on. 48 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Yeah, there was an application and interview process. 49 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,000 So I'd say that our correspondance kind of split into two phases roughly. 50 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:31,000 The first one was when we were kind of hammering out what the project would would be about. 51 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 And again, that was mostly for me. I think it's it's fair to say, Tom, I think that's really the right way of going about it. 52 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Yeah. And I think that's quite it's kind of surprisingly important stage. 53 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:51,000 I think potentially in it as a supervisor, I see that's the time when I can ask questions that that might prompt further reflection, 54 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,000 might prompt revision of certain parts,  improvements. 55 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So that by the time a candidate arrives at they're actually submitting an actual application. 56 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,000 They're in the best possible place. I think it's you know, if this relationship is going to work well afterwards, 57 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000 it's useful if you can kind of get it in even in that speculative phase when you don't know if you need to get to work together. 58 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,000 I've had other students where they weren't successful in the applications, 59 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:25,000 and you could look at that as a lost time when you invest time in in a student and helping them to refine their ideas. 60 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:31,000 But actually, it's it's crucial, I think, once that those projects that do get off the ground once you get going, 61 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,000 because then it allows you to already know that you are probably for it. 62 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 I mean, I'll ask you here, Edward, but I think for the student, it's an opportunity to kind of see how you might work with that supervisor as well. 63 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Intellectually. Yeah, I think that's that's absolutely right. 64 00:06:48,000 --> 00:07:00,000 And I remember being very struck when I started emailing back and forth and we started coming to see the second stage in particular, 65 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:08,000 which was why me producing a rough research proposal now kind of refining it together. 66 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,000 I think we went through several versions of it, didn't we, before before we submitted it. 67 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:28,000 And I remember being struck by the level of detail of care and of interest that Tom showed for it. 68 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,000 It's definitely an opportunity, as you said, time for the student to see how the relationship would work. 69 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:38,000 And it was something that really. Made me think that. 70 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Exeter was a place I'd want to go. 71 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:45,000 This isn't an advert for the University of Exeter or necessarily for Tom Hinton, though I certainly would make that in a heartbeat. 72 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:51,000 But it's if you get that sense that there's a good dialogue going between you. 73 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,000 It's it's really, really positive step. Nothing made me feel. 74 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,000 More keen to go to Exeter. Or to work with this particular supervisor, 75 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:11,000 then the degree of interest that there was in the feeling that this was a project that that you take it on were interested in. 76 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,000 I think. 77 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:20,000 I think I think that that's a it's such an important part of the process and it's not depending what discipline you're in, it's not always possible, 78 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:30,000 because particularly in the sciences, you're applying to a very specific project which is led by a very specific supervisor or principal investigator. 79 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,000 But we're kind of in the more humanities and social sciences. 80 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:41,000 It's such so important to have that conversation. It's like you say, Tom, it's not just about how you're going to work together intellectually, 81 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 but also about actually what the dynamic of the relationship is going to be. 82 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:53,000 And if that that that is right for you, it's kind of like an audition like it for you both to sort of feel like, is this is this going to work for us? 83 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Is this going to be the kind of relationship that we're both going to find? 84 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Intellectually and I guess professionally is the word I'd use fruitful. 85 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Say they want to commit to over a significant period of time? It is. 86 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,000 Yeah, I'm pleased to say that I managed to I managed to dupe Tom and four a bit. 87 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Years later, he's still trying to escape, I believe. So. 88 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Thinking about this over the span of the past four years of your supervisory relationship. 89 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,000 What will? I guess I'll ask you first. 90 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000 Edward, what? How would you describe the dynamic of it? 91 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:44,000 You talked about how in those initial interactions you felt that there was an awful lot of attention to detail and a sense of care. 92 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Is that did that kind of follow through in there in the rest of the relationship? 93 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,000 How how would you say the dynamics are? Yeah, I think it definitely did carry on through. 94 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000 So in our first meeting together in September, we already met in person over the summer. 95 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,000 But in our first sort of September meeting, 96 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Tom suggested that we start by effectively just discussing the document that I've been working on over the previous few months, 97 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,000 which was the research proposal, just seeing if anything had changed in the couple of months since, 98 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:23,000 obviously I'd last discussed it with him and seeing if anything new had come up and discussing how we might get started. 99 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,000 Which in the arts nad humanities is often a difficult conversation to have. 100 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000 So, yeah, I definitely did, I think continue on that sense of good care and an interest. 101 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,000 Yeah. What about. What about for you, Tom? 102 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:44,000 How would you describe your dynamically working relationship with Edward as this as a supervisor and supervisor? 103 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,000 I think the great thing about Edward is that he'll always come to meetings with ideas. 104 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:56,000 So there's always something to discuss. There's always a really some really interesting routes in 105 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:07,000 And I guess for me it's been I'd say, first of all, I want to talk about it intellectually and then about sort of interpersonally, intellectually. 106 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000 It's been an interesting experience supervising PhD that's really quite close to the kinds of questions that I'm interested in, 107 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:22,000 because I've been very aware all the way through not wanting to to guide the project in the way that I might have if it was me working on it. 108 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,000 So it's obvious it's crucial that this is the student's project. 109 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:35,000 And your role as supervisor, I think, is to try to prompt, to nudge, to advise, but not to not to guide or to take over in any way. 110 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,000 Hopefully that's something I've managed to avoid doing. And interpersonally, I think it's always been. 111 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,000 It was very straightforward and easy from the start. 112 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000 I think we were lucky from that point of view because, you know, there's an element of luck about this as well. 113 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 So you get a bit of a sense of of your supervisor's personality and your students personality from early exchanges. 114 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,000 But in the end, you you can bring two people together. 115 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,000 Hopefully we'll get on and certainly be professional. You know, it's very important that professional relationship. 116 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,000 In our case, I think we did get on genuinely with. We are friends now. 117 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:16,000 And and that's a that's that was a really good serendipitous thing. 118 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:25,000 But I think as a supervisor, even if you didn't have immediate chemistry with the student on an interpersonal level, 119 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:31,000 you obviously have responsibilities and a professional attitude that you need to have. 120 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:40,000 You can maybe talk about that as well later on, what you're saying about the kind of the interpersonal, but also. 121 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,000 You know how you work with someone professionally, I think it's really important because, yes, 122 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:54,000 in either lots of cases you do have that sort of interpersonal connection and you do kind of end up becoming not just, 123 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,000 you know, colleagues or supervisors supervisor, but friends. 124 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:02,000 But that's not always the case because it's not always the case with anybody we work with in our professional lives. 125 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:08,000 And just because you don't have that kind of platonic connection with someone doesn't 126 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:15,000 mean that you can't work very productively with them on a professional level. 127 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Yeah, I think that's really nicely put, actually. I think yeah, I think that's my experience of sort of second hand experience of other colleagues. 128 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:34,000 Supervisory relationships is that on the whole I think As you suggested, the staff most often there is there. 129 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:42,000 I mean, it's it's quite a natural thing to evolve out of being so closely involved with someone's work and not just work, but their working life, 130 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:50,000 I suppose, over such a long period of time that there very often is a strong personal relationship that develops and the supportive relationship. 131 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:56,000 But it's not it's not a given. And even in cases where that didn't develop. 132 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,000 I think the important thing is that there's a strong professional relationship. 133 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And one thing I'd add to that, actually, you were very kind earlier, Tom, to mention I come to. 134 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,000 We call them supervisions. I think that's probably a hangover from. 135 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:23,000 Where I did my undergraduate and various other bits of terminology, but meetings or kind of contact events or whatever you want to call them. 136 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:30,000 I think coming to them with ideas is something I would encourage all students to do when working with supervisors. 137 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Tom and I both did. Alternate components of the same training. 138 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,000 I think didn't we Tom in the kind of the first couple of months. 139 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,000 So I had it as a hDE session on working with the supervisors, 140 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:51,000 which is now being developed into an excellent set of online resources put together by one of our PGRs. And there's an ECR or supervisors equivalent to that. 141 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:57,000 And I think one thing we both fully took away from the versions of that was that. 142 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:07,000 As a PhD student, you have a lot more responsibility for shaping your project than you may be used to from an undergraduate or master's perspective. 143 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,000 So I would always be. 144 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Possibly slightly annoying in coming to Supervisions which is certainly the early ones with an actual agenda, which may be overkill. 145 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 But I would always come along with ideas of what I wanted to discuss because 146 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:31,000 I was very conscious from the start of the fact that my supervisor's time, 147 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:37,000 one of my supervisors in the plural, because of course, it's not just the one person supervision job is precious. 148 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:46,000 And I want to effectively milk my supervisors as efficiently as possible. 149 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:56,000 You've been working together for four years now on the PhD, but also on a postdoctoral project which we can perhaps come to later. 150 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,000 But how has the dynamic of the relationship changed in that time? 151 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,000 I'm interested in hearing from Tom first. Obviously, you know, you helped him. 152 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Put the proposal together or gave him some advice and guidance, and he said that, 153 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,000 you know, because the research areas are so close, you didn't want to steer him too heavily. 154 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:24,000 But how have things. How have things shifted during that time as he's got more knowledgeable about the project? 155 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:30,000 I think. I think one thing I should have said probably earlier is that Edwards was my first student. 156 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,000 And so it's been a learning process for me. At the same time as I think it has to him. 157 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:43,000 So I think we both felt our way into the relationship in the in the first the first phase. 158 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000 And nothing, as is probably natural as most PhD projects. 159 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:56,000 Initially, the initial stages were about Edward getting a sense of what he wanted to work on. 160 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:05,000 And so I probably had more of a. More of a directional 161 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:15,000 involvement At that stage, whereas I think as the project's gone on, particularly in the last year of it, 162 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:23,000 when a lot of work was coming from Edward in quite a short space of time. 163 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000 It's been nice to see how he's developed his expertise. 164 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:36,000 And I've been I've had much more of a secondary role, I think, in terms of just responding to the kind of big ideas that he was bringing. 165 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:49,000 But I think probably that initial phase was interested to hear what Edward says to this was about helping him to 166 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:58,000 see the big ideas that he might pursue and that he might weigh what kind of direction he might take is his PhD. 167 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Yeah, I think I said absolutely accurate description of what I think your role was that on? 168 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Only I. Always found big ideas in some aspect of that quite scary. 169 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:20,000 So. I think certainly in the early stages, the thesis work quite well was Tom sort of pushing me to think about the big ideas 170 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:26,000 in response to me producing what was actually quite specific pieces of text. 171 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:35,000 So one of the things that we decided from the start of the thesis is that for pretty much every meeting that we'd have, 172 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I would bring something to the table. Why? 173 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,000 I'd bring. I think we set it like fifteen hundred words of writing 174 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,000 Tom as a minimum something. like that. Yeah. 175 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,000 When we when we draftedd the supervision agreement, 176 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,000 which is something that requires of PhD students and their supervisors both to sign off on. 177 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,000 We said, okay, so if I produce this that will then leave something to lead us to, something to to discuss. 178 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:11,000 So looking back, I'm looking now at first piece of work I submitted to Tom, and it's slightly painful to read in some respects. 179 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:17,000 But I can see here how how your role, how you how how you saw your role fits into that. 180 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:25,000 Now, in terms of encouraging me to think about these bigger ideas, I'm watching something quite specific about certain texts. 181 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:33,000 And I remember you sort of encouraging me to think more broadly and to look at where I might go with all of that, 182 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,000 these ideas I was bringing to the table. 183 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:44,000 Whereas I think more recently that the latter stages of PhD, you've been much more assertive about the way you think you want to go next. 184 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:50,000 And that's been really great. That's interesting. Actually, I hadn't I hadn't realised that. 185 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,000 I mean, clearly you've been managing it, managing it very, very effectively. 186 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 I think you always knew you always it's this is something that must vary a lot across from one student to another in that, 187 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:09,000 as you say, some students are more comfortable initially diving straight into the kind of the big questions. 188 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,000 And I think in your case, as you rightly said, 189 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:18,000 it was much more about working on focussed on smaller questions and then seeing what the implications of that were. 190 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:23,000 And I think those implications, I think you where I think you really developed over the. 191 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,000 PhD is in getting to grips with those implications and seeing them a lot a lot earlier. 192 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:37,000 Well, one of the one of the things that I was being told in, my Masters, is that I work best when I have a very specific question to answer. 193 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:45,000 And I think that's still true. But one of the things that I think supervision has allowed me to do is to develop 194 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,000 those specific questions into bigger ideas more quickly and more efficiently, 195 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,000 I suppose, if that's fair to say. 196 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:01,000 I think the one thing for you that's been a consistent all the way through is probably the corpus that you thought you wanted to work on. 197 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 So that has stayed fairly stable, hasn't it, all the way through fairly. 198 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,000 I mean, it has hasn't really changed, I think. 199 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,000 But yeah the corpus itself has remained fairly similar. 200 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:25,000 I think the way I approach it, as you say, Tom, has changed, particularly after the the upgrade, which was a a challenging point in the PhD for me. 201 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:33,000 And I think one where I came to really appreciate your role in the supervisor's supervisor relationship. 202 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:40,000 And I think that's a really good Segue actually into thinking about that, because you've talked and you both talked a lot about the the you know, 203 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:49,000 the many, many positives and strengths in your intellectual, interpersonal, professional relationship as supervisor and supervisor. 204 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,000 But, of course, you know, no research degree is without its challenges. 205 00:21:53,000 --> 00:22:02,000 So, Edward, first, can you talk a little bit about the upgrade and why that was a why that was such a challenge? 206 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:09,000 And maybe, Tom, you can reflect on how you worked with Edward through that process. 207 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,000 So to answer that, I'm going to have to be a little bit specific about certain parts of my PhD. 208 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,000 And I'll I'll try and keep this as sort of brief as possible. 209 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:26,000 The first year of my PhD, I was basically thinking about a distinctive Anglo Norman. 210 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Didactic, that is to say how what was special about French texts in medieval England and how they thought about and engaged with education. 211 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:52,000 And I'd spent the year producing effectively a lot of contextual material about the Latin background to a lot of these medieval texts and the. 212 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:58,000 Upgrade itself, which for me under the old system happened at the in the fourth term. 213 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:07,000 So sort of around the start of my second year rather than the end of the first, which is the norm nowadays was something of a shock, I think. 214 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:15,000 I think it's fair. Is it fair to say Tom was a bit of a shock for both of us? Oh, yeah, definitely a learning experience for me as well. 215 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:24,000 So effectively, what was pointed out to me, quite rightly, I think and this is something that we had both missed. 216 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Was that if I'm going to ask the what's special about this block of texts that would require a significant amount of engagement with. 217 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:46,000 The texts that they'd need to be compared to so continental French texts and Latin texts, which was really several PhDs 218 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:55,000 And so it wasn't really something I could do in one PhD. Concomitant to that, I was also asked. 219 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:01,000 OK. So you're doing a lot of close reading. This is this mysterious thing in the humanities we call close reading. 220 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:11,000 So what where are you going with this? And two phrases jumped out at me from the upgrade report. 221 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:18,000 The first one was the best backhanded compliment I've ever heard, which was Edward has done a significant amount of contextual work, 222 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 which will stand him in good stead for primary source material later in the thesis, 223 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:28,000 which is a very nice way of saying why is there no primary source work in this chapter that you've submitted? 224 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:38,000 And the second was Edward needs to develop a methodology that goes beyond close reading to encompass broader questions of X, Y and Z. 225 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,000 So those would be difficult things to hear. Tom, you were you were in the upgrades, I think, with me, weren't you? 226 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,000 You you'd. You were keen to come along and I did. 227 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Can I. Can I ask what your experience was of the upgrade? I think so, yeah. 228 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:02,000 I wanted to be there. I was invited and asked if I wanted to be there. I wanted to sit in and 229 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:11,000 Edward was happy with that as well to learn because this was my first experience of having a student go through the upgrade. 230 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:17,000 And I think, yes, slightly chastening experience for me as well, because, I mean, 231 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,000 there was a there was good and bad mixed in in terms of the the feedback that you were getting there. 232 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:28,000 Right. I think it made me realise that both of us had been unclear on this. 233 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000 I think is the supervisors responsibility in this case. 234 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:38,000 I should have known the process better, but I think there are some things you learn just through going going through them and experiencing them. 235 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,000 I should have been clearer about what the upgrade wanted. 236 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,000 So the one thing I learnt from listening to the examiners in the conversation they were having with you, Edward, 237 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:58,000 was that what they really wanted to see was a sign of how you argued and what kind of what 238 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,000 kind of thesis in the literal sense of that word you were building and what kind of argument, 239 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000 overarching argument you you're building? And I realised that that was something that we hadn't because we'd focus so much on 240 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,000 getting you the contextual knowledge and getting you a mastery of the of the whole area. 241 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,000 We hadn't really done enough on that. I think what I learnt was some I talked a bit about how great it's been, 242 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000 see Edward becoming more confident as he's developed his expertise through the thesis. 243 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,000 I think it made me a little bit more confident subsequently about my roles. 244 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,000 So I mentioned earlier that you kind of as a supervisor, 245 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:38,000 I think you need to step stand back and make sure that you don't take ownership in any sense of the of the project, 246 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:43,000 that there is a balance to strike where sometimes you do need to be a little bit more interventionist. 247 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:52,000 And I think possibly in that first year of our relationship, I was probably standing back too much, maybe I think or not one. 248 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,000 I was very conscious of not wanting to interfere with your voice. 249 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Edward and your your way of approaching your intellectual. 250 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:08,000 And I think that's still crucial. But I think also, having gone through the viva sorry, the upgrade, 251 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,000 Viva made me more confident probably about pointing out where think if you remember, 252 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:20,000 one of the things that they mentioned was that quite a lot of things were in the passive or you were you were kind 253 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:26,000 of presenting other scholars views rather than taking ownership yourself off of the topic you were talking about. 254 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:32,000 And so pushing you a little bit more to to do that in response to those to those comments. 255 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,000 I think that that probably became a little bit more part of what I was doing subsequent to that. 256 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:45,000 And this is something which you then quite rightly began to point out more, I think, in my writing. 257 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:55,000 My tendency in when I write to hide behind authorities and to be a little bit too deferential on occasion, 258 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,000 I think using quotation where you could actually say things in your own words. 259 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:06,000 So we'd have situations when we were I'd be saying, oh, there's a possible way of why the quotation marks here, you know? 260 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:14,000 Couldn't you just say that in your own words? Yes. Yep. Which might sound like a really, really specific point to make. 261 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:21,000 But he actually fitted into a broader development, I think, in terms of how I argued it was a really important steppingstone. 262 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,000 I disagree about that being a specific thing. 263 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:33,000 I think that that is part of the process of learning to be an independent scholar and learning to value your contribution and your voice, 264 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,000 because that process is about having. 265 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,000 The confidence to articulate that in your own words, rather than always being deferential and referring to others. 266 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:50,000 I think that's part of the a part of the process and a part of the journey. 267 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,000 you're trying to work out where you are. I can relate to the fields. 268 00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:01,000 And so some PGRs are going to be very confident, being very comfortable, being assertive from the off and others are not. 269 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,000 And you know, those who are very assertive, they may need to tone it down slightly. 270 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:13,000 And those who are not assertive enough, they may need to learn to turn it up. It's a very it's really fine balance. 271 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:20,000 Really fine balance. And in the in the sort of weeks or months following the the upgrade, 272 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:28,000 I think there were probably two points in the PhD the where I was really struggling. 273 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,000 I think this is probably one of them. 274 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:42,000 Sad to say, my way out of that eventually was to effectively do the same thing that I'd done in my first year, 275 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,000 which was just to pick a text and write something on it. 276 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:55,000 Except this time we were thinking a lot more about the the broader implications of it, in particular the focus that the thesis started to take. 277 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,000 And this was a suggestion from you, 278 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:03,000 which I bought into very enthusiastically because I realised it fitted very well with what I like to talk about anyway, 279 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:14,000 was that we focus less on what's special about Ango Norman didactic texts and more about the environment in which they were conceived and used. 280 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,000 Again, getting slightly technical here. 281 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:24,000 One of the really cool things about the work that Tom and I both do now actually on the same project is that medieval England is multilingual. 282 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:34,000 And this is something that does distinguish it from what we now call the hexagons as a continental fault in that sense. 283 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000 So English is working with French and with Latin and with other minority languages. 284 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,000 And this is something that we came to realise should be a much more important part of the thesis. 285 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,000 And that's, I think, how we got out of that first sort of caught my eye. 286 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:54,000 And I think Tom played a very important role there in reminding me of these big, big questions that I had to consider. 287 00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:04,000 So I think it's some that this is really common thing for these students to experience at some point during the whole process, 288 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,000 a period of writer's block or of loss of confidence. There are potential knock backs. 289 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,000 So in Edward's case, it was the upgrade viva. For other people, it'll be different moments. 290 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:19,000 And it's really, I think is quite a challenge as a supervisor at that point, because your heart goes out to them. 291 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:28,000 But then once again, we've talked about that balance of giving, giving space for the student to find their feet again, 292 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,000 but equally not allowing them to feel like they're abandoned or that they're on their own with it. 293 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,000 And and so I think in Edward's case, 294 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:45,000 coming back to writing just a little bit on something focussed was a was a very good way of getting back into getting back into the saddle. 295 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:56,000 I. But I've had yeah. I'm aware of this as a general point, that if you as a supervisor, you have a student who's. 296 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,000 Struggling to write something, then you sort of don't want to. 297 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:07,000 You kind of, yeah, you want to try and get the right amount of of contact because you don't want to do it. 298 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:17,000 Translate into pressure from another source. But at the same time, I think you do need to maintain an active role in that stage as well. 299 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:28,000 And I think the takeaway for me from that period, this is kind of middle end of my second year, actually, to take away from me the. 300 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:35,000 Was very much one of Tom being there when I needed him to be. 301 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:43,000 I think this was the thing. At no point I think did the Tom have to step in and say, you've gone quiet. 302 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:50,000 You know how you know. Do you want to meet at some point? 303 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,000 But Tom did know when I was writingsomething he'd need to give me sometimes a little bit of space. 304 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:05,000 And we balanced that, I think, quite well. I remember one one email I received which legitimately made me. 305 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:12,000 weep a little bit in the office. I think Tom described me is writing beautifully. 306 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:22,000 Was the word that you use, the phrase you use Tom. And by that, which was genuinely slightly emotional. 307 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:28,000 But it was that sort of that was that just that moment of your life. 308 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:36,000 You've got this. While I was struggling, that was very much appreciated. 309 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,000 As we're talking about writing, I think it would be useful to have a have a quick chat about. 310 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Feedback on written work, because it's such a fundamental part of the research degree process, 311 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:54,000 because, of course, in the end what you're examined on is the thesis and the viva on the thesis. 312 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:03,000 So I wonder if you could say a little bit about how you managed that, how you managed that process of. 313 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:11,000 I guess from Tom's perspective how you gave feedback on the writing and how you approached it and then from Edward's perspective, 314 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:19,000 how you kind of dealt with that and responded to that. So I think with feedback. 315 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:25,000 Something the supervisors need to bear in mind and maybe that students need to bear in mind when reading feedback 316 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:35,000 is the effect of written the written format in relation to feedback that you can give through to the voice, 317 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:41,000 because there's a there are all sorts of things we do when we face to face it. Someone that attenuate criticism, 318 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:49,000 that make it easier is to make suggestions for improvement without coming across painfully and sometimes with written feedback. 319 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000 I'm aware of this when I mark undergraduate work. 320 00:34:52,000 --> 00:35:02,000 When I comment on these students work and when I write do review reports or what, when I write book reviews or when I do reports, submissions, 321 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:10,000 article submissions to journals across all of that, you can come across very aggressively, sometimes very dismissively, if you're not careful. 322 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,000 And I think if you do, probably if you do get a comment that is uncomfortable, 323 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:23,000 it's worth bearing in mind as a student that there may be just a slight infelicities of tone there. 324 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:31,000 Hopefully the key thing is that the feedback is constructive and that means for me, it means engaging both on point of detail. 325 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 As I read through as a kind of interested reader, really, I sort of I'm having a conversation with the with the text on the page, 326 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,000 I guess, but then also engaging with those bigger questions that we talked about. 327 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,000 So trying to put one's finger on where there's an implication that's not being teased out. 328 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:55,000 Was that something that can go further productively? So I think that's those two levels on which you work. 329 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,000 One is that the level of detail on the other is the level of implications and 330 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:07,000 consequences way you want to try and help the student to see where they could go further. 331 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:15,000 I would add, actually, that it is possible to inject some warmth into feedback for PDG arse, 332 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:23,000 and I think that the work that Thomas is a very good example of that in that it was feedback rather than correction. 333 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:30,000 So I would occasionally get a little note along the lines of, oh, I haven't seen this exclamation mark. 334 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,000 If there was an article I'd come across the previous week that just been published, for example, I hasten to add. 335 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,000 That was fantastically rare. 336 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:51,000 But I'd also get things like nice or good analysis here, you know, which is a way of conveying that warmth and that interest in your project. 337 00:36:51,000 --> 00:37:03,000 I think. The question about the mitigation and not not coming across too harshly is one that the supervision meeting itself can really help with. 338 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,000 Yes. So I think we varied it, didn't we, Tom? 339 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,000 Sometimes you'd send me feedback ahead of a session. Sometimes you do it in the session. 340 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,000 It depended on how punctual I was in getting the work to you. 341 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Probably how busy I was. No, no, no. I vaguely remember sending you, like, 10000 words on a Wednesday and that Friday was the meeting. 342 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,000 So I don't know. I'd always if I did that. 343 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:33,000 I'd say, you know, here's a bit to focus on if, you know, including the highly likely event that I'm being unrealistic or or, 344 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:42,000 you know, do you want to delay by a week or something like that. But there was there was real warm for thinking in your comments. 345 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:49,000 We also varied, I think, between print and PDF in terms of how we did it. 346 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:58,000 Obviously, in terms of the last few months, the thesis when when we weren't seeing each other in person because of covic, we went to PDF. 347 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:03,000 But I think you tended to quite like printing out and writing, didn't you, Tom? 348 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,000 Yes. That's I think that's just a personal personal preference. 349 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, I think it's one of these things that might be worth for PhD students sort of seeing what they what they like as well, 350 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:22,000 since it works quite well for me as well to the benefit I have of that sort of thing was I then had to take away from I then go away. 351 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,000 You usually go a cup of tea, sit down and just read it all again. 352 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,000 And then when I was revising that piece of work a bit later, I'd go through with a massive marker 353 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:41,000 And you put a big tick through the comments. I did. Then if I ever told you that you say the other thing I want to say is that it might be 354 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,000 easy to forget that you think of your supervisor as someone who's an expert in that field. 355 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,000 You hope that they are. But that doesn't mean that they know everything, and particularly they don't necessarily know everything about your project. 356 00:38:51,000 --> 00:39:01,000 And one of the benefits of supervision for the supervisor is that it's genuinely interesting and exciting to follow someone else's project, 357 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,000 to follow these ideas that are coming at you and that you're getting a lot from intellectually as well. 358 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:12,000 Yes, so. It does sound like it's been an incredibly fruitful relationship intellectually and obviously, you know, it's continued. 359 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,000 You submitted your thesis and Viva'd got minor corrections and submitted those and are just waiting to hear. 360 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,000 Is that right? Still waiting to hear. That's right. 361 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:27,000 And, you know, you've been working together already for, you know, the last part of the PhD on a of projects. 362 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,000 So, you know, you don't continue those relationships if they're not intellectually fruitful. 363 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:38,000 No. I want to say I've been I'm. But they did mention at the start of this podcast my worries about giving one supervisor envy. 364 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,000 I do want to apologise because I did get incredibly fortunate, 365 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:48,000 not just to be able to work with Tom, but also in the fact that he wanted to keep working with me. 366 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:55,000 And in fact, that a particular project came along and got funding at the moment when I was finishing 367 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,000 up my PhD and that because we were so closely aligned in terms of what we worked on. 368 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:06,000 I was an eligible candidate for that position. I wonder what you had to say about that, Tom. 369 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,000 So I think it was yeah, it was serendipitous that this project got funded at the point when it did. 370 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,000 Ed is too modest to say this, but he wasn't just eligible. 371 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:22,000 He was an ideal candidate for that role because of the skill set that he had, because I knew that we had this good working relationship. 372 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:33,000 So I remember my PhD supervisor, former PhD supervisor, who was talking to me about this project saying, well, it would. 373 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,000 It's really important if you're looking for a research associate to think about 374 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,000 the working relationship and the fact that Edward and I already knew each other, 375 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:48,000 already had this this connection and an established positive way working meant that 376 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000 it was really perfect to be able to interview and appoint him for that post. 377 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:01,000 One thing that that has been interesting, actually, in this this phase now is thinking about making sure that it's not just the phd 378 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,000 supervisors supervisor relationship anymore is we've moved beyond that now. 379 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,000 We're colleagues. So that's been an interesting evolution as well. Yeah, it really has. 380 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:17,000 I think Tom is the P.I. on the project and I'm the RD on the project. 381 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,000 Tom, did I say some acronyms there that I'll just explain for our listeners just in case P I is principal investigator, RS is Research associate. 382 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:30,000 Yes. Tom did make a point about the difference between research assistant and research associate at the start of this position. 383 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:41,000 I think it's a valid one. I think this is an extension of the that the PhD the relationship in that Tom, 384 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,000 while not technically my boss, is the person that I'm accountable to on a day to day basis. 385 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:55,000 But the way that the project is set up, there's definitely a difference in terms of some of the technical skills. 386 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,000 I was very fortunate to have some experience in that respect. 387 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:06,000 So the discussions that Tom and I have had in certain areas are very collegiate, more so certainly than at the start of the PhD 388 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:16,000 our discussions were around e Anglo Norman didacticism, hard to say that, you'd have thought I;d have practise after four years. 389 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:22,000 So I guess to wrap up what I'm thinking would be useful is is just, you know, 390 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 through the process of this supervisory relationship to Tom, you said it was, you know, and it was your first p h d student. 391 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000 So you kind of both new to either side of this. 392 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:44,000 I wondered if you had any reflections or advice for other supervisors or supervises about what makes it kind of productive, 393 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:51,000 intellectually exciting, good kind of professional supervisory relationship. 394 00:42:51,000 --> 00:43:00,000 Can I go first here for for supervises? I've heard a lot of discussion about what makes. 395 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:06,000 A good environment for these student over the last few years. 396 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:15,000 And I think that from the discussions that I've heard, the most important thing is not effective marketing. 397 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,000 It's not. Advertising certain resources. 398 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,000 It's not X, Y or Z, which you can you can list off very neatly and easily. 399 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,000 I think it's something more ephemeral than that. 400 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:42,000 It's the idea of finding a supervisor who genuinely cares about you as a person, about what you're doing and about your project as well. 401 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:47,000 Any amount of. Advertising about Library resources. 402 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:55,000 Any amount of boasting about research rankings will fall by the wayside. 403 00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:04,000 If the relationship with your supervisor doesn't work and I've been very fortunate in finding a relationship that does. 404 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,000 It was actually one that was put onto me by my undergraduate supervisor, who, 405 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,000 when I mentioned your the opportunity of working with Tom, specifically went. 406 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:17,000 Yes, that one. That one. Do that one. Do it now. But. 407 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:27,000 I think if you get a sense that a potential supervisor is someone that you will work with and get on with. 408 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:34,000 Go with your gut there for current PGRs . I'd extend that and say I appreciate your supervisors and what they do. 409 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:42,000 There's a lot of training available through the doctoral college in managing relationships with supervisors, and I would encourage you to do that. 410 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:53,000 It's certainly helped me way back at the start of the thesis and also through the thesis as well to appreciate what exactly. 411 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:59,000 The role of supervisor is and what you can reasonably and should not expect. 412 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:10,000 That was supervisor. What about you Tom? I think I'm probably going to repeat a fair bit of someone's fair bit of what I've been saying. 413 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:16,000 I think from supervisor's point of view, remember that each project and each student is different. 414 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:24,000 And that's part of the joy of supervision, because you get to be involved in all these different ways of working to get 415 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:30,000 that balance of being available without being overbearing and then enjoy it. 416 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:40,000 Thank you so much to Edward and Tom for taking the time to have a really rich and in-depth discussion with me about their supervisory relationship. 417 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:49,000 And I think it's been really fascinating to hear them talk about those kind of initial emails that they exchanged 418 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:56,000 before Edward even applied right through to now working together as colleagues on the postdoctoral project. 419 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:28,490 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me next time where I'll be talking to someone else about researchers, development, and everything in between!    

In this episode I talk again to Edward Mills who appeared on the second episode of the podcast. Sincer we last spoke Edward has submitted his thesis and passed his viva with minor corrections, and in this episode we'll go right through that process from submission, to prep, to the viva itself and doing the corrections. You can find out about the Viva Survivors podcast and resources Edward mentions on the Viva Survivors website. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,000 Today, I'm really pleased to be joined once again by Edward Mills, 5 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:48,000 who I spoke to very early on in the kind of the days of this podcast about writing up during the time of Corona virus. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:56,000 And today, I'm really delighted to be talking to Edward about his experience of the VIva, which he passed last month with minor corrections. 7 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,000 So, Edward, tell us what you've been up to since we last spoke. 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Well, it's a it's been a busy few months. I had my viva at the start of October. 9 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:20,000 And since then, I've been waiting for and subsequently received my corrections, which I'm currently working on as ever with postgrad life. 10 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Plenty of other things have come up and got in the way as well. But it's been a it's been an exciting period, I think. 11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:36,000 And I'm looking forward to talking about it today. Yeah. So. As I said at the start, you passed with minor corrections, which is absolutely fantastic. 12 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Thank you. Let's talk. Okay. I think it'd be easiest to talk if we talk chronologically. 13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Yeah. So talk to me about submission. 14 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:52,000 What was that like? So submitting was terrifying. 15 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,000 I actually started to think about submission a long time ago, 16 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:02,000 mainly because I'd spent the last year procrastinating by doing my acknowledgements, of course, Naturally 17 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:13,000 And. I really looked forward to the moment when I go up to the sid desk, the student information desk we have here in Exeter, and hand in my thesis, 18 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,000 having done it with a few other people before and having kind of helped them out and been with them and 19 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,000 taken the photos of them getting their thesis printed in the student print room just above all of that jazz. 20 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,000 I'm really looking forward to it. And then the rona happened. 21 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Oh, she did. Yes. And unfortunately, that got in the way slightly. 22 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:41,000 So therefore, my submission process involved hitting send on an e-mail entitled My PhD Thesis. 23 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Yeah, it doesn't quite have the same celebrator moment to it as kind of taking having a picture taken in the in 24 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:55,000 the forum and but especially not when you get an out of out of office reply email in response to it. 25 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Yes. Yes. Because I sent over the weekend. 26 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:08,000 But I mean, even though the the moment of submission, perhaps perhaps less celebratory, I imagine the time afterwards wasn't any. 27 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Was it about as anticlimactic as it usually is? Yes. 28 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:22,000 So in practical terms, what it meant for me was not sending a PDF, but sending a onedrive because my thesis was quite large. 29 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000 And then the file size, not necessarily in terms of intellectual knowledge, but in terms of file size. 30 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,000 It was a minor corrections would disagree with you. In terms of file size, it was surprisingly large. 31 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:39,000 So what I ended up doing was having several PDFs chapter by chapter with high res images and then a single one for the whole thesis, 32 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000 volume one and volume two with low resolution images on it. 33 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:50,000 So I'd send that link off and then I had a minor panic because I couldn't quite grasp what I'd done. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000 I wasn't quite able to understand the enormity of having submitted a thesis. 35 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Luckily, I was doing some work the following morning so I couldn't focus too heavily on that. 36 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:13,000 But it was a slightly anticlimactic period, especially because not a lot happens between the submission and the Viva period. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:20,000 You're in that sort of no man's land, apart from the occasional email from your internal examiner to confirm dates and times. 38 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,000 And then you get the teams notification in my case saying Edward Mills, viva, 39 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,000 because, of course, you did an online Viva, which will come to you in a moment. Yes, absolutely. Well, how so? 40 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:38,000 How long was the gap between submission and Viva? So I submitted on I think it was. 41 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,000 It was something like the 5th of September. OK. Or the note was a little early in that. 42 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:50,000 So I think that the twenty eighth of August, something along those lines and my viva was on the 5th of October. 43 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,000 So it was just about a month and a half. That's pretty... It was a fairly speedy that the regulations say it was. 44 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,000 So it's to be within what, three months. Yeah, but it's one of those sort of at Exeter 45 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,000 Certainly the regulations are within usually within three months because there were all sorts 46 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000 of reasons why it might need to go beyond three months in terms of availability of externals, 47 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 etc, etc. But my my viva itself was on the 5th of October. 48 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:21,000 So within within a couple of months after submission, even if I can remember the exact date when I when I hit submit or send one. 49 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:30,000 So when did you start preparing for the viva? 50 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:37,000 I think preparing for the viva actually began before I submitted to a certain degree. 51 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000 I've been very fortunate to have a wonderful, 52 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000 wonderful PhD supervisor and on a few occasions we did discuss things in the thesis I was drafting them that we thought were defensible. 53 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,000 That would need to be defended at the Viva. 54 00:05:50,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So particular decisions we'd taken in terms of why I'd taken intend to structure in terms of points of focus, in terms of what I hadn't focussed on. 55 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:09,000 But in practical terms, I would certainly say that the main prep for the viva actually happened fairly shortly beforehand. 56 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,000 I spent the first couple of weeks after I submitted doing teaching. 57 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Which meant that I was something external to the university, which meant that I wasn't really looking at the thesis all that much, 58 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,000 that's probably a good thing in terms of having a fresh pair of eyes to come back to it. Yeah. 59 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,000 We always advise that. I'm hoping at some point you took some form of a break. Oh, absolutely. 60 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,000 Yes. 61 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:40,000 I, I, I did a a big celebratory bike ride, which those of you who remember my previous podcast will remember talking about whizzing downhills going. 62 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,000 We it's it's not how everybody would choose to celebrate, but it's how I chose to sell. 63 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:52,000 Well indeed. We were still inside while we were under restrictions in the UK. 64 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,000 So celebrations have taken on a very different meaning in the last six months. 65 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:08,000 Yes, this is very true. But in the stage, running up to the viva itself, I think most of the prep that I did falls into two stages. 66 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:16,000 The first was learning about the Viva itself and understanding a bit more about what the viva would be and what it would be like. 67 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,000 That included a lot of things I did before I submitted, including attending some of the sessions. 68 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,000 thedoctoral college offers. Thank you for the plug, I think. All right. 69 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:36,000 now worries. And that also included talking to quite a few people who'd been through Viva, both in my discipline, 70 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,000 which is modern languages and mediaeval studies, and also outside of it as well. 71 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,000 So. Just to pick up on that, I. When you when you were speaking to people. 72 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Yes. About their viva experiences, what were you asking them? 73 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:02,000 I was asking them to describe how their viva experience was, if there was anything that they did not expect in their viva, OK? 74 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000 And also what they might have done differently and what advice they might have for me. 75 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:15,000 And I got a very wide range of pieces of advice coming back at me. 76 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000 And I think the thing that emerged throughout all of that was you're the expert. 77 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:29,000 It's difficult to believe that. I'm sure that something will come back to later in the podcast. But that was the main theme that came out from it. 78 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:40,000 One practical piece of advice that I received, which I would very much recommend people do, is to produce a. 79 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:48,000 e prep document of some form and a friend of mine very kindly passed on theirs, 80 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,000 which basically included brief summaries of some of their chapters. 81 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:00,000 I expanded that myself to make it the thesis on one side of a4 or summarised each section of my thesis. 82 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,000 This is moving on to sort of the second stage now, 83 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:11,000 which is annotating and improving and augmenting the thesis, if you like, for the Viva and like augmenting. 84 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Oh, yes, absolutely. So it's a VR thesis some way. We'll talk about that in a second. 85 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:23,000 And I adapted that to my thesis on one side of A4, which made it much easier to refer to. 86 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000 And as a piece of advice I've actually had given and a number of times by. 87 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,000 Academics and researchers to actually being able to articulate it on one side 88 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,000 of A4 and either in kind of precis form or in bullet point form is really, 89 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:49,000 really important because it helps you. Crystallise and consolidate what the main driver of it is, which is often something you're asked to do right. 90 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,000 The beginning of the viva is a warm up question, but will come back. Oh, absolutely. 91 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,000 And I was very much hoping that I'd have to do it, octosylabic couplets, but unfortunately, that never happened. 92 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Yes. Well, I think that might be a challenge for most people. There's also a bit niche isn't it. 93 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,000 The other thing I did, based on that particular piece advice, my friends, 94 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:13,000 which I heartily recommend, is producing what I called the kind of nightmare sheet 95 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:20,000 which was basically all of the questions I hoped I wouldn't be asked, but expected I probably would be. 96 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Yes. So questions about why you've done this or any holds you think you might have spotted so that you can look at that. 97 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,000 There is no rule against taking notes into your viva. Certainly here at Exeter, I know the rules may vary always read the label. 98 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:43,000 But in Exeter, it was it was something I did check with my chair of the Viva. 99 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:52,000 And there were no issues there whatsoever. And that led me on to this sort of second stage of prep, which was the augmented or the annotated thesis. 100 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Everyone talks about annotating your thesis or be reading it before the viva. 101 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,000 I came across a term in a podcast called Viva Survivors, 102 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,000 which I'm sure people listening to this podcast may already have heard, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes. 103 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000 But the advice there was to think of notes you add to your thesis as augmenting them. 104 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,000 The point being that you're making those notes so that you can further them in the Vivas. 105 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:24,000 So you want to make your thesis more navigable for you. You want to make your thesis more friendly for you. 106 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000 And you want to make your thesis. Searchable figures. 107 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000 Yes. And that's precisely what the notes were about. 108 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:38,000 I divided my notes into three types, a different colour highlighter for each one typos, which rapidly became just a list at the end instead. 109 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:47,000 That was much easier. Yes. Danger points, which were things I suspected will be picked up on no relation to Danger Mouse. 110 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:53,000 And then also points for expansions are things I've discovered since submission 111 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000 or things I thought I could say more on if I if I were given the opportunity. 112 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,000 Those were the ones where I knew I could go off on a little kind of excitable tangent, 113 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,000 which is something I'm sure we'll talk about in the viva itself. 114 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:16,000 So those were the two steps really of prep the beforehand the kind of discovery about the viva and the initial thinking about how I'd approach it. 115 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:24,000 And then the actual sitting down and reading through the thesis again and augmenting the reading through it actually took place fairly later on. 116 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:33,000 So I, I finished reading it. You know, in the days before the viva rather than like a month beforehand, that. 117 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,000 But I imagine that is even more fresh in your mind. Yes, that's one advantage of doing it that way. 118 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000 You're absolutely right. So did you do any kind of did you a mock viva? 119 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,000 Did you do any practise aloud of answering the 120 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,000 You know, you said about your nightmare sheet. Did you practise verbally the answers to those questions or was it all very kind of 121 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:59,000 The augmentation and the prep documents were paper based. I wondered if you did anything. 122 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,000 So I've. Try to sort of speak about my research. 123 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Throughout my thesis, I'm quite lucky to have been given the chance to do that and we've taken the chance to do that in various places. 124 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:17,000 So it wasn't my first time speaking about my thesis in in some detail. 125 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,000 And I think that's one of the reasons I didn't do a full mock vivA. 126 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:28,000 What I did do, though, is on the morning of my of my thesis, Viva I. 127 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,000 I was lucky enough to meet my supervisor and said to him, Wait. Could I ask a favour? 128 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Would you be willing to make me uncomfortable? 129 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:45,000 You ask me all of the really, really hard questions that I don't want to be asked, as unreasonable as you might think they are having you. 130 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,000 And they've been with me on this thesis journey. Can you put me on the spot, please? 131 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 And then we'll discuss the responses I give to that. 132 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,000 And obviously, that was basically a chance for me to practise, referring to the nightmare scenario sheet. 133 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:04,000 And how was that? Supposing you were awkward, because my supervisor, when I get on quite well. 134 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:12,000 So it was very strange to hear him picking up so many things that we'd already discussed. 135 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:19,000 Obviously, there was. This is the other danger of doing that. Yeah. There was another practical issue on my part, which is I don't. 136 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:26,000 In order to have a mock viva, in some respects, that needs to be done with people who are intimately familiar with your thesis. 137 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:32,000 And that wasn't necessarily the case for me, that there were that many people who could do that. 138 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,000 Yes, of course, it depends a lot on the department that you're in. 139 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:43,000 I would always advocate making the mock viva's something you're doing for years rather than something that you have before the Viva. 140 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,000 But of course, it is a really useful tool. I know plenty of people who've had one and would recommend one as an essential part of it. 141 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000 Yeah, and I think that's part of the kind of the subjective nature of this. 142 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,000 You know, it's about finding the kind of preparation that works for you. 143 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,000 So you've said about the morning of the viva, you speak to your supervisor, got them to ask you awkward questions. 144 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,000 And we mentioned earlier your viva was online as so many Vivas that are taking place now. 145 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Ah. And I would imagine increasingly in the future and the majority of vivas will be at the very least blended, if not online. 146 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Can you talk a little bit about your feelings about doing the Viva online So online vivas 147 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,000 I think, as you say, it's going to become more and more the norm. 148 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Yeah. In the future, even after restrictions are eased. 149 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:48,000 I myself didn't have too many qualms about doing my Viva online it 150 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:57,000 Didn't seem to me to be a huge change, and in some respects it has its own advantages, which we'll talk about later, I'm sure. 151 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,000 It was nerve wracking, of course, being on my own in a room. 152 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,000 I was basically in my flat before the viva started. 153 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,000 And I was just sitting there looking at this incoming teamn notifcation called Edward Mills. 154 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,000 Viva which is faintly errifying. Yeah, rather ominous name for me. 155 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:22,000 I did have to go and stick a sign on my on my flat door saying, please don't disturb. 156 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,000 Viva in progress. Thanks very much. Say it was. 157 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:39,000 It was an. Ominous and slightly nerve wracking experience, but it's not as big a deal beforehand as I'd expected it to be. 158 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,000 Indeed, during the Viva itself, I guess there's all that much to say about the fact that it was online. 159 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000 And that seems to be what so initially when, you know, all these things started moving online, 160 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,000 one of the conversations a lot people were having was kind of like, we know how do we support be able to do online? 161 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:02,000 And as people started to do them and upgrade Vivas as well. The thing that came back was actually materially it's not very different. 162 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000 No. And we did have a requirement to say this was myself. 163 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000 The were all those in attendance. So myself, the internal, the external. 164 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,000 And there was a chair as well in my viva, a non examining independent chair 165 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Yes. 166 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:29,000 To say that we did not feel that the viva had been conducted unfairly and that we did not feel that there was any detriment to having conducted online. 167 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:36,000 That's a very important thing to note. Having the viva online did have one advantage to it, and this is, again, 168 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,000 something that I checked with the chair during the viva itself, which is I was able to share my screen. 169 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,000 Yes. And this is one practical thing that I found very, very useful because I was able to pull up. 170 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,000 In my specific case, I work a lot with mediaeval manuscripts. 171 00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:01,000 So in my case, I was able to pull up images and to show those images in a greater resolution than could be shown in the images from my thesis. 172 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Absolutely. And certainly, you know, in a Face-To-Face viva, you could take in a USB stick with similar content on. 173 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:15,000 And then if you were asked and there's usually a computer in a room because when when isn't there a computer in a room these days? 174 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:22,000 You could show it, but much, much less clunky and much easier to kind of prepare for and to do in the moment. 175 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,000 And also, of course, having a PDF copy of your thesis on the computer in front of you means it's searchable. 176 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,000 you probably remember I checked this with you before the viva 177 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Whether this was alright or not Yes. But you can just control F and find a particular term. 178 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000 And then flick to that page in your in your printed theses, which I would very much recommend you. 179 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:48,000 You have for anyone who's visualising this at home, by the way, I have this on  the table in front of me right now. 180 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:56,000 This is what thesis sounds like. Sorry. I'm sure anyone who wasn't expecting that will thank me. 181 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000 Their ears will thank you later. Yes. I believe the phrase is RIP headphone users. 182 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Yes. Really sorry. So. How long was your viva? 183 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Long, very long, specifically four hours, which I'm not I'm not gasping in a in in shock because I already knew this. 184 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:27,000 This is why I asked you. But the so at Exeter four hours is the absolute absolute maximum. 185 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:36,000 It could be. Yes, it is. Yeah. And isn't it right that your examiners spent basically no time discussing the outcome because 186 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,000 they had to get the result back to you and do all of that within that four hour time limit? 187 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:48,000 Yes. So if I remember this correctly, we had a two hour slot, basically, then another two hour slots. 188 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 We had a break in the middle, which was ten minutes. We went through it chapter by chapter. 189 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:00,000 So the break came after about two hours for about 10 minutes or so. 190 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:13,000 And then after that, just about three hours and 40 minutes into the viva and the chair pointed out that they had to finish the viva soon 191 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,000 And therefore, I was asked to leave the room, the virtual room. 192 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,000 This is the thing people have asked this in. Q And A's I've been involved with since then. 193 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:28,000 Yes. So leaving the room literally means, in this case, hanging up the teams call and then rejoining 10 minutes later. 194 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,000 What did you do in that 10 minutes? Mostly pacing nervously around my small flat. 195 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,000 Yeah. Guess at least if you're in the department, your your supervisor will , will be physically there, 196 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:47,000 and people tend to go to people's offices or they'll go to their office or, you know, they'll have people to interact with. 197 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,000 That must have been even though it was only ten minutes. 198 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,000 It must have been an incredibly nerve wracking ten minutes. Yeah, it was nerve wracking. 199 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,000 There's actually no requirement for supervisors to attend. 200 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,000 No, it's it's an option. Yes. Many supervisors might want to. 201 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,000 My supervisor was very keen to give me the choice of of him not attending if if I'd rather not. 202 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:15,000 Yes. I was perfectly happy for him to attend. And in fact, it was slightly easier in some respects than it would have been if I had been in in person, 203 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:21,000 rather because he was able to mite himself and turn off his video. So he was in kind of unannounced observing background. 204 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000 Yes. Which which is if you're doing it face to face, exactly how it should be. 205 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:30,000 Yes. So. How was it four hours? 206 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:36,000 I mean, for a lot of people who listening to this, that's going to sound like a horror story. 207 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:45,000 So tell us how it was. Well, I think the first thing to say is it was four hours because there was a lot to talk about. 208 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,000 Not four hours because they were testing how long I could go without having a drink over a cup of coffee. 209 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000 Incidentally, the answer to that question is four hours. Yes. 210 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Generally, though, the viva was a really positive experience. 211 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:03,000 And that's not something that I was expecting. 212 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,000 It's something that you hear from. A lot of people say no, actually really enjoyed them all the time. 213 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:19,000 But going into the viva, I did not expect that my my pathological fear was of major corrections or revise and resubmit 214 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:29,000 And neither that is necessarily bad outcomes. It's important to say, but I had it in my head that they were. 215 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:35,000 But if I can enjoy the Viva. Anyone can, because I was terrified beforehand, is what you say about that. 216 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:43,000 Yes. So in terms of how the viva actually went. Each of my examiners took the lead on a different Chapter 217 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:51,000 It just so happened that my internal examiner was an expert in one of the things I discussed in the chapter, which, you know, is not always the case. 218 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,000 No. And it's not always the case that they do go that kind of chronologically through their thesis. 219 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:02,000 It's much more common in the sciences, but less so in the humanities. So it seems like it's interesting. 220 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,000 Interesting that they took that approach. Yeah. 221 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,000 It's worth noting the examiners did explain at the start of the viva what they'd done 222 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,000 What they'd done beforehand, which is that they'd met together. And then they'd compared notes. 223 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Yes. So they clearly had a strategy in mind, like in terms of what actually happened. 224 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,000 First, we had a little bit of admin at the start where the way the chair sort of clarified what 225 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:32,000 would be going on and what her role was and asked if you had any Gwenny questions and, 226 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,000 you know, maximum time limits and so on and so forth. 227 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:43,000 But I was very lucky, actually, in that my internal took the lead on a lot of the a lot of the kind of admin stuff. 228 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:50,000 And as a way into the viva itself, she actually explained what the thesis was measuring. 229 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,000 And I'm sure that the... You mean the examination criteria? 230 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:02,000 Yes. Things like the ability to create new knowledge and satisfactory literary presentation, listening presentation, conceptualising a project, adjusting its design. 231 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,000 Those five ideas, I'm sure listeners to this podcast have come across before. 232 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:17,000 Yeah. So how did they start the questioning? Well, they started by telling me that I had passed 233 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,000 They did not tell me what kind of pass it was. Yeah. 234 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000 So that's. Again, that's relatively unusual. 235 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:33,000 So a pass would mean you would be one of a kind of three of the four possible options, an outcome. 236 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000 So you either, no corrections, minor corrections or major corrections. 237 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,000 And it's important to say that it's not common practise necessarily to do that. 238 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Some examiners do, some examiners don't. But if they don't do that, it doesn't mean that you've got to revise and resubmit or anything like that. 239 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,000 It's just it's a stylistic thing. 240 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:59,000 It's also worth saying, I think, that they were not saying, as you probably pointed out, that I had passed with minor corrections. 241 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:06,000 They were simply saying that I would not have a revise and resubmit, which again, is not necessarily a comment on the quality of the thesis. 242 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:14,000 You've said before that. They reflects much more than just how good or bad the thesis is in and of itself. 243 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Questions about the scope of the thesis and so on come into the decision for revise and resubmit 244 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Oh, yeah. But it's it's a complex. So it's a complex. 245 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,000 Yes. Yeah. It really is thing. And a lot of it is the difference between certainly between minor. 246 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:35,000 and major is still the amount of time it would take you to do the corrections rather than the supposed flaws or weakness in the thesis, 247 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000 which I think is how, you know, when you were saying about you were concerned about getting you know, 248 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,000 you were convinced it was going to be major corrections or a revise and resubmit. We tend to think about that on a kind of. 249 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,000 You said it yourself. Good or bad, pass or fail. And flaw based model. 250 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:57,000 Whereas actually, it's it's not about that. It's about what needs to be done to bring the thesis to a pass 251 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Yes. And what how long that will take. 252 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Quite right. Yeah. My approach when I got told that it was a pass, I assumed that it was go they were going to be corrections. 253 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,000 I always assumed I would get corrections. I think that's a healthy way of doing it. 254 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,000 Statistically, much more likely. Yes. 255 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:28,000 And my decision when I heard that you've passed this is about improving and rendering the thesis was to say, okay. 256 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Right. My job now for the next, however long it would be would be to convince the 257 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:39,000 examiners that I should be awarded minor corrections rather than major ones, 258 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,000 both by defending what could reasonably be defended and justified decisions I'd made, 259 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:53,000 and also by showing them through my knowledge of the topics and through my engagement with the thesis since the viva 260 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000 that the changes that I would need to make, that I would not be able to sort of. 261 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:05,000 Justify not doing could be made sufficiently quickly for them to count as minor rather than major 262 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,000 which comes back to your point about how it's a time thing, rather than a quality thing. 263 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000 So what kind of things did they ask you? 264 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:20,000 So some questions that they asked me were very specific, and I think that a lot of the time when people are prepping for the viva 265 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:26,000 what they want to know is what questions you ask, what questions you ask. And as a kind of what what questions am I going to be asked? 266 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Whereas actually that there isn't a kind of apart from the warm up questions like. 267 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,000 So tell us a little bit about your argument or how you came to do this research. 268 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000 The questions are so detailed and so specific that it's very difficult to kind of compare notes, 269 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000 as it were, across different Vivas and across different topic areas. 270 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,000 Yes. So my question, for example, on my certain. 271 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:58,000 Lack of criticality in accepting a characterisation of Anglo norman literature as precocious 272 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,000 would probably not come up in most people's vivas to give an example of a very specific question. 273 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:10,000 However, the kind of general sentiment behind that would come up, which is a certain lack of political distance in adopting critical terms. 274 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:20,000 Yet another example of that. The first question I was asked in the entire Viva was. 275 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,000 How do you think your writing style affected Your argument? 276 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,000 Wow. Not that I have to say that's not what I've heard before or words to that effect. 277 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:42,000 And it came back to a tendency in my writing generally actually to set up binaries and work to 278 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000 problematise, them? That's diving in at the deep end. 279 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:53,000 Even though those binaries might not necessarily be accurate. 280 00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:00,000 So I set myself up frameworks within which I have to work, which are occasionally a little bit restrictive in what they allow me to do. 281 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,000 And there were several examples of this throughout the thesis. But yes, it was diving in at the deep end. 282 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:12,000 It was an excellent question. I should add, my internal examiners had also been an examiner for my upgrade. 283 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:20,000 Viva! And what that meant was I was able to make connection between the upgrade viva the feedback and the Viva aims 284 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,000 So to give one example, 285 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:30,000 I would probably need to justify a slight methodological distinction between Chapter one and the rest of the thesis. 286 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:36,000 Chapter one is quite linguistic in its approach. The rest of the chapters are much more traditionally literary. 287 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:43,000 And in justifying that I went back to the feedback that I received in my upgrade viva from my upcoming internal examiner, 288 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:52,000 who suggested that I need to develop a methodology that ranges beyond the close reading to embrace theoretical insights related to my materials. 289 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,000 And I use the linguistic chapter as an example of how one might do that. 290 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:06,000 There were others throughout, of course, but that's an example of how the experience of the upgrade Viva actually helped me to develop the 291 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:13,000 viva itself when it came to sitting down in front of that same examiner again three years later. 292 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,000 That's really brilliant. And so what you know, you said that the questions are very specific. 293 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:26,000 And, you know, you had one about the writing style and kind of setting binaries and dichotomies and theoretical frameworks. 294 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,000 What other what other topic areas were the questions they asked you in? 295 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:37,000 So the question's broadly fail into sort of three groups, if you like. 296 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:43,000 They were often focussed around specific points in the thesis of why you characterised X as Y. 297 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:52,000 But for the broad trends, questions included why I chose to cover certain types of text in my thesis and not others. 298 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:58,000 So is that to do with my primary data kind of thing? Yes. Is to do with what my what my source material. 299 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:07,000 Yes. Yes. And also why not others related to that was why I'd chosen to focus on texts in French of mediaeval England as opposed to, 300 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,000 say, continental French material. And there were good answers to both of those. 301 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,000 One one acceptable answer is simply scope. 302 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:21,000 But there were also more discipline specific reasons, as well as to why the French in mediaeval England is worthy of study in its own right. 303 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Yes, there were theoretical questions about the frameworks that I'd used. 304 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,000 So, for example, how I was how I was using certain tools from manuscript studies. 305 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,000 So to to look at some of these mediaeval books. 306 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:41,000 But one thing that stuck out at me was the tendency for the examiners to very kindly divide their feedback into kind of corrections and comments. 307 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,000 So did they articulate that in the in the viva? Were they making very clear what was a correction? 308 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,000 What were the comments? What they said was they would produce two reports effectively. 309 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000 OK. And what they did in the end was use one report with a preface to all of the all 310 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,000 of the kind of things to highlight for possible future publication with comment. 311 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,000 And they were they saying that in the main body of the viva or just in the kind of feedback that. 312 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,000 No, they said fairly early on in the viva as well. 313 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,000 But I didn't know stage by stage as they went through what was what. 314 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000 No, but that's a massive hint. It is. 315 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,000 And I was very fortunate in that respect. 316 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,000 And I know that's not that I may not be standard practise, although, of course, it's that there is no such thing as standard practise for either. 317 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,000 No. A lot of the time, you know, if if they think that it's, you know, there's nothing to worry about, 318 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000 they will try their best to kind of indicate that to you in various ways, 319 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:38,000 like saying, you know, well, when you think about publishing this or they're not specific things to do with the examination and the outcome. 320 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 But there are ways to kind of guide you towards or at least sort of reassure you that this is going to be all right. 321 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 Don't worry. That's true. Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the comments for publication are Minor. 322 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000 It's worth noting that the one of my comments, 323 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,000 if I want to publish one thing I these do is seriously reconsider the methodology behind one of my chapters. 324 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Yeah. That does not make it ineligible at PhD level for an award. 325 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:10,000 No, but it was a an interesting sort of critical reflection on what might be needed to do how and when. 326 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000 And I get the impression I'll be using the corrections that I've got. 327 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:20,000 Which Examiners is also worth stressing produce have to produce a written report on Viva with a list of corrections, 328 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,000 including typos that they would like you to make. 329 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:32,000 I'm going to be using this list of corrections for at least the next year rather than just to kind of get myself to the next hurdle, 330 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:39,000 which would be submitting my revisions. So where are you in the process now? 331 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:45,000 I'm currently at the stage of making the revisions that I have to make with a view to submitting them before Christmas. 332 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:57,000 If all goes well, it's an exciting time. I mean, I'm I'm very lucky in that the feedback that I've got is comprehensive, which means that I can. 333 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:06,000 Reflect on them. And there's plenty of material left to work with. So the report you've got are the corrections very specific? 334 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,000 Yes, they are indicated by page. Oh, wow. So I'll I'll give an example. 335 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:20,000 Yes. By all means. Yes. So. So, for example, I have on page 22 a comment saying, 336 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,000 why is the Anglo norman text society unusually assiduous as opposed to various other text editing bodies? 337 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,000 And then a wonderful comment here. Very few adverbs earned their place in prose. 338 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:38,000 And then you open up a can of worms worth scrutinising the impulse to use an adverb in most cases, and almost always an improvement to edit them out. 339 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,000 That's a very specific comment, but also a much broader idea about my writing style, which I very much appreciate it. 340 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,000 So you're working through the report? Yes, absolutely. 341 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Enjoying turns of phrase like that is taking into account to make the thesis better. 342 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:02,000 That's one of the most exciting things, actually, about it. It's not just a question of taking another hoop to jump through. 343 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,000 It's about engaging again with something that I spent four years of my life very close to and developing 344 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:15,000 in collaboration with people who've read it very closely and have provided very detailed feedback. 345 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,000 So how much longer do you think you have to do on the corrections? 346 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,000 Not a huge amount more. I've had the meeting with my supervisor to discuss it on stage. 347 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,000 I'm starting to make the minor corrections, some of them I can make immediately. 348 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,000 A lot of them are typos. 349 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:40,000 I have a list that I provided, a list in the viva itself, which got some went some way to suggesting that I there would be minor changes. 350 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,000 What the major ones I would hope. I'm anticipating I should get it done before Christmas, as I say. 351 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,000 And that's alongside other work that I am taking on the moment as well. 352 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,000 And I guess that's that's the final question. 353 00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:03,000 What next or afterwards when you finally get that email that says, Dear Dr. Edward Mills, what are you gonna be doing? 354 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,000 Probably doing a happy little dance around the kitchen is the honest answer to that. 355 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000 First of all, good. I'm very, very fortunate to be involved in some some postdoc work. 356 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,000 And, um, I'm exploring my options at the moment. If anyone needs Star Trek, translated into Anglo Norman French. 357 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000 I strongly encourage you to contact me. Oh, wow. I really. 358 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:29,000 I've done this. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah, it's niche. But then niche is kind of a PhD anyway, isn't it. 359 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:39,000 It really is. So you you said earlier on that in the run up to your viva, you asked people that you knew that had done vivas 360 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:47,000 What kind of advice they had ans. What would you do now that you've had your viva? 361 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:53,000 What would you say? What are you going to say when inevitably other students ask you that question? 362 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:59,000 Not any piece of advice, but something that I didn't believe at first. 363 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:05,000 Everyone says going into the PhD viva either you're the expert, you're the expert, you're the expert. 364 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,000 I did not believe that. No-one does. Well, few people believe that. 365 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:18,000 But as someone who didn't think that he was the expert until he was given some positive feedback in the viva. 366 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,000 And who even now really doubts that he knows anything at all. 367 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,000 You are the expert. You really are. And if you can believe that even slightly before the viva, 368 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,000 you put yourself in a much stronger position to take criticism and take comments on board for what they are, 369 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:42,000 which is not attempts to bring you down for the sake of it. But attempts in good faith to improve a piece of work that. 370 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:50,000 The examiners, in all likelihood, really enjoyed reading. Thank you so much, Edward, for taking the time to talk to me again, 371 00:37:50,000 --> 00:38:01,000 particularly during the busy period of doing those corrections alongside other work, which I am sure he is eager to get done as quickly as possible. 372 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:32,885 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rare and subscribe and join me next time whn I'll be talking to someone else about researchers, development, and everything in between  

In this episode we welcome new PGRs to the start of the academic year with a special episode on starting your research degree with contributions from Catherine Cartwright, Jamie Cranston, Edward Mills, Victoria Omotoso, Warren Speed and Emily Taylor, talking about their experiences of starting their research degrees, and advice they have for those joining our community this September.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of R, D and the In Betweens to celebrate the start of the academic year at the University of Exeter. 4 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,000 We've got lots of new PGRs joining us. And so I wanted to do an episode that was about getting started with your research degree. 5 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000 So what I've done over the past few weeks is I've spoken to a variety of our postgraduate 6 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,000 researchers and asked them what it was like for them starting a research degree. 7 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:02,000 And what advice they'd give to someone coming in. But before we dispense with the advice, let's start with a warm welcome. 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,000 I'm Emily. I'm just going into the second year of my PhD 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,000 And I really want to say a big welcome to the University of Exeter. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:17,000 Shame can't do it in person at this time, but it doesn't mean that you're welcome any less. 11 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,000 And I hope you have a great time. Congratulations as well. 12 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:28,000 And on achieving your goal, getting the place. 13 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:35,000 So let's start by talking about how does it feel to start a research degree. Here 4 of our PGRs 14 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Catherine Cartwright, Edward Mills, Victoria Omotoso, and Warren Speed talk about their feelings of nervousness, 15 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,000 disorientation and uncertainty during those first few months and indeed that first year. 16 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Well, I had said it's pretty disorientating coming to what is a massive university, 17 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:08,000 much busier than what I was usde to on, my M.A., which was on a kind of side campus that where I was. 18 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:20,000 And it's just remembering what it's like to be new somewhere and be new at something intimidating is how I describe it, actually. 19 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,000 I spent a year out of academia doing teaching. 20 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I was very enthusiastic about getting back into it. But I was also nervous that I might not have a clue what I was actually doing. 21 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:39,000 It's a whole research thing. I was very lucky to get very good support from the staff, from the Doctoral College here at Exeter and also from my supervisors. 22 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:48,000 But. I think it is a very natural thing to feel to feel nervous about starting a degree 23 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,000 So at best, it was all quite uncertain. Of course, everyone's really excited to start a PhD 24 00:02:53,000 --> 00:03:06,000 But for me personally, I didn't I can't really comprehend what that meant in terms of how to kind of kick it off, kick off this PhD journey 25 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:15,000 I think the first thing that was super helpful for me was having first contact with my supervisors. 26 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,000 It was tricky at the beginning trying to navigate what it was actually trying to do. 27 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,000 I had no idea what I was doing my PhD in. 28 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:30,000 But I don't think you really do have an idea of what you want to do a PhD in, especially with social sciences and in my 29 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:36,000 And for me, until you get into your second year and you really start thinking about the questions 30 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,000 that you need to ask or what it is you're looking for properly and you get into it. 31 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000 But having a great supervisor supporting it is great. 32 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:55,000 I've got brilliant one. He's really supportive. So speak to your supervisor speak to your personal tutor, the personal tutors, they've heard everything. 33 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:03,000 So don't be afraid to speak to them. The other thing is, is when you your first year is always gonna be an absolute mess. 34 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Well, for me, it for a lot of my friends. It was anyway. We're not really sure what we're doing. 35 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,000 We did a lit review. Bits of introduction. Little bits of questions of methods and application forms, whatever. 36 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,000 That's what the first year like the first year is just meh. The second is hard. 37 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,000 I found because that's usually when you start doing data collection and it can be really difficult. 38 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:34,000 And don't underestimate data collection and do not underestimate how long it can take to organise to find participants to get involved in research. 39 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Think what Warren's saying is really poignant. 40 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:44,000 You know that first year is challenging you're finding the direction of your research or trying to find a narrow down what it is that you're doing. 41 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000 And so it has a lot of challenges in learning new skills in terms of managing your time, 42 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:58,000 but also learning new research skills and learning to to sit in that uncertainty and how to be productive within it. 43 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:06,000 And we've got some great tips from Catherine and Edward about things you can do in that first year to help you to use Warren's word, 44 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:13,000 organise the mess in that first term and ongoing. 45 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:19,000 I think it's really useful to keep some sort of diary or journal, which you don't have to write much in it. 46 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:29,000 But what I kept note of was what I did each day, because it's very easy to feel like you haven't been doing anything or you haven't achieved anything. 47 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,000 But you can look back and you go. Oh, yeah, of course. I took that training course. 48 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,000 I spent like two hours figuring out how to use this database. Oh, it's the library. 49 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Oh, I did this. And so when that kind of little telling of voice in your head says that you haven't done anything, 50 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,000 you can look back and go, oh, well, actually, I've done a lot. 51 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:01,000 And that  I stopped it from while I started it back during lockdown. 52 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000 And during this time. And it gives me a certain structure and boundaries. 53 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:15,000 The way that I dealt with a lot of those nerves was to just dive headfirst into doing PhD 54 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:24,000 The advice I was given from the start, which I think is is good advice, is to write from the beginning, something you'll hear a lot in humanities 55 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 in particular, but I think it's important in sciences, too. 56 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:33,000 It's very tempting to think of your first year with your research year, or even of your first month as your research month. 57 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:40,000 Oh, I've not got anything to write about. What could I possibly do at this stage apart from read things? 58 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:49,000 And to an extent, that's true. But what I found myself doing was writing something in response to a specific bit 59 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,000 of primary reading I had done. It didn't really matter what I was writing. 60 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,000 And then a couple of weeks in, I met with my supervisors again and we said, Okay. Yep. 61 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Can you work this up into an extended version of your research proposal, which you've submitted before 62 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 you started your PhD obviously. And that was basically my way of dealing with the nerves of. 63 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:17,000 writing in response to a prompt that I had set myself. So that's about actually starting the research degree and starting the research. 64 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 But what about building a community and making Connections with other researchers? 65 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:35,000 Let's hear from Victoria, Warren. Emily and Catherine about their experience of networking and building Connections and building a community. 66 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:44,000 I came from London and I'm sure there'll be PhDs coming from all over the country or internationally even. 67 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:58,000 But a PhD can be a really isolating. And I know in the first few months I was here, I felt horrible genuinely because I just had no network. 68 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:05,000 I didn't really know anybody. I didn't know other PhDs. And I was feeling like, oh, what have I done? 69 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:12,000 Like, I've just come to a completely different city and I don't know anybody and say it was very 70 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000 you can imagine my joy when I discovered kind of you know things like the Postgrads Society, 71 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,000 which was great in just having that kind of social aspect. 72 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,000 And yeah. And seeking that out. And I, I mean, if there's one thing I would have done, 73 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:38,000 would have I wish I sought so kind of those kind of social societies and like those social events that the college have hosted, 74 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 I wish I sort that out earlier than I did. 75 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:48,000 It would have saved me a lot of. Sadness in the beginning and loneliness, I guess. 76 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:55,000 But yet, like, really kind of seek out, seek out having other PhDs around you. 77 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:04,000 And I found that very helpful throughout. Even now, as I was saying, and I'm finishing, I still find that network so helpful. 78 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Just for your well-being and just to know that we're all in the same boat. 79 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,000 We're all trying to kind of navigate these PhDs and just. 80 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Yeah, having that kind of network is. Yeah, I found it so helpful and very beneficial to my well-being. 81 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000 Not enough conversations happen. Just general conversations about how well people are doing or. 82 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,000 Oh, how you work. Or research is getting on and doing. 83 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:40,000 A PhD can be a very, very lonely, solitary place and very difficult for quite a lot of us. 84 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:47,000 I would say go out there, start to speak to other people, make some friends, get involved in things like I do and the doctoral college, 85 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:54,000 get involved in things with Student Guild as a PGR, but do something. 86 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,000 Don't just sit in your office or sit at home and do nothing and just work. 87 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:08,000 You need to. Go find something fun and speak to human beings and also make time for yourself and for connecting other PGR students. 88 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:15,000 That is so important. And since I started, I have been lucky enough to be part of a group of PGR students, too. 89 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,000 And we meet regularly sort of weekly. And although it can be tricky fitting it around all the other stuff 90 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:28,000 It's just been a lifeline and a really great place to share ideas and share worries 91 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,000 and realise that you're not the only one who is experiencing whatever it is you're experiencing. 92 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000 It's such a strange things going throuhg a PhD. Actually amazing at times. 93 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,000 And it can be very difficult at times. But when you got people to share it, that really makes a difference. 94 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000 There's also something really important that came out when I was talking to 95 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,000 our PGRs about work life balance and setting boundaries and asking for help. 96 00:10:53,000 --> 00:11:03,000 So here's Catherine Victoria Warren. I'm one of our Penryn PGRs, Jamie Cranston talking about those very things. 97 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:13,000 The thing with doing a PhD because it's. It is, by its essence, quite not nebulous necessarily, 98 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:22,000 but kind of you have to put your own boundaries in and so that might be kind of like, OK, well, I just work. 99 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,000 I work nine to five. I don't work in the evenings. I don't. 100 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,000 What work we can it had to be what works for you. Some people might have natural boundaries in their life. 101 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,000 They've got children that need like feeding 102 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:43,000 I've always found my kids quite useful that way, like calls you out of your work and you have to stop. 103 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000 So the diary or journals part of that setting boundaries for yourself. 104 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 And of course, you know, I've always said about the PhD, it's not a sprint it's a marathon. 105 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:02,000 So take some time. There's one thing I would have definitely told myself. 106 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Even I think, too, recently is take some time for yourself. 107 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,000 Your PhDis not your life. And you have friends. 108 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,000 You have family. And you had yourself to take care of as well and always just keep it in mind. 109 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,000 Yes doing a PhD is Great. Yes, it's very satisfying once you've completed it. 110 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,000 But don't let it take over your life. Everything in moderation. 111 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:39,000 Don't ever compare yourself to another PhD students work because their work is totally different to what we're doing. 112 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,000 So I did that quite a lot. And I think everybody does, too. 113 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,000 I think even when I'm saying this and whoever's listening to this, you probably will do it. 114 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,000 But don't ever compare yourself. Because it does mean it can put you down. 115 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,000 But you need to bear in mind that it is completely different. They are different timescales. 116 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:00,000 Everything they do is completely unique to their own work as well. 117 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,000 You will see. So they'll probably looking at your work and also thinking the same. 118 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,000 So try not to compare, I guess, to the other big one is some. 119 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:19,000 And don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that's the biggest development that I've had over my PhD at the start. 120 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000 It's quite easy to get sucked into the feeling of, oh, I must know everything. 121 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:29,000 And often it's off the this imposter syndrome. And you feel the need to to. 122 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:35,000 You may find things out yourself, and obviously part of the PhD is developing those independent skills, 123 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,000 but you're not expected to know absolutely everything. 124 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And so long as you're learning, when you ask somebody for help, obviously getting somebody to do it for you, 125 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,000 sort of defeats the whole purpose of the activity that. 126 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:57,000 One of the best ways to learn stuff and save yourself a lot of time and pain and frustration, it's to ask for help. 127 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And that goes from coding, writing and even like simple things like how to organise your reading. 128 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:14,000 There's lots of people in your departments who have gone through that experience themselves and will usually have some good advice. 129 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,000 And it's always good to get different people's advice because sometimes one person's approach isn't a good match for you. 130 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,000 So you might need to try a few different things. 131 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:31,000 I hope some of that has given you an insight into other people's experiences of starting the research degree, the things that they find difficult. 132 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:38,000 And also, if you're finding it intimidating and anxiety producing nerve racking, you're not on your own. 133 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,000 That's a completely normal experience. And as Jamie said, we're here to help. 134 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:48,000 And please do reach out if you need us. But also enjoy the final thing is just enjoy it. 135 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Enjoy it. And the time goes by so quickly, you don't even realise it. 136 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000 But yet they are going to be some moments. It's not easy, right. 137 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,000 I will not sugarcoat this. It is. It is not is. 138 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:15,000 They are. There will be moments where you will want to just cry. But at the end of today, you know, if you have a goal, you will work towards that. 139 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000 And and just make sure you have a great support network of friends and family and supervisors, 140 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000 because that will honestly, that's what got me through as well. That's what helped me. 141 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Those kind of moments where I just was like, what am I doing? I didn't think this work is working. 142 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:40,000 And but yeah, I just having all of that kind of adds to that, to the experience of it all. 143 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:46,000 And yeah, hopefully at the end of it you be able to say you've completed it. 144 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,000 And yeah. And you're very proud of the work that you've produced. Thank you so much. 145 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Emily. Catherine. Edward. Victoria Warren and Jamie for 146 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,000 their insights and their contributions to this week's episode. And that's it for this episode. 147 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,000 don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 148 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:32,451 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

Episode 22 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. There... Can you hear it? If your soul has not truly given up on Ben, Duncan, and Jeff finishing their Revolutionary Girl Utena rewatch, then you can hear the sound that races through the last fifteen episodes of that series. Come! Come with us and our guest, friend and Utena expert Katie! Follow us to the podcast episode you seek! The post Inbetween 22 - Akio's Smooth Jazz (Revolutionary Girl Utena: Apocalypse Saga) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 22 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. There... Can you hear it? If your soul has not truly given up on Ben, Duncan, and Jeff finishing their Revolutionary Girl Utena rewatch, then you can hear the sound that races through the last fifteen episodes of that series. Come! Come with us and our guest, friend and Utena expert Katie! Follow us to the podcast episode you seek! The post Inbetween 22 - Akio's Smooth Jazz (Revolutionary Girl Utena: Apocalypse Saga) first appeared on Key Frames.

In this episode I talk to Jo Sutherst and Sam Jones, postgraduate researchers at the University of Exeter, about their experience of studying for their research degrees at a distance. During the podcast we discuss: The Supporting PGR Writing project and our daily Shut up and Write groups   You can find Jo on twitter @JoSutherst and Sam @samjonesrnli.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, to RD, D and the Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to Episode three of R, D and the Inbetweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:47,000 This week I'm joined by two of our PGR's, Sam Jones and Jo Sutherst, who are going to talk to me about what it's like to be a distance PGR. 5 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:52,000 So Sam and Jo were both distant students before COVID-19. 6 00:00:52,000 --> 00:01:01,000 And I think that this conversation is really timely because increasingly we're all working as distance students and distance workers. 7 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,000 But also the likelihood is that sector is going to shift and we're going to have more more people studying 8 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:15,000 at a distance because hopefully our online provision and support is going to be even better than before. 9 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 So Sam and Jo, are you happy to introduce yourselves. Hi, I'm Jo. 10 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:26,000 So first, I am a first year PGR in the College of Humanities in art history and visual culture. 11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,000 And I am based in the forest of Dean in Gloucestershire. 12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:39,000 Hello, I'm Sam Jones and I'm based in Tobermory on the beautiful Isle of Mull in the Inner Hebrides off West Coast Scotland, 13 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:45,000 and I am a second year part time PGR in maritime history. 14 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:53,000 So can I start by asking you both, why did you decide to study at a distance? 15 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:59,000 So for me, I actually did my M.A. by distance through Falmouth University. 16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 I've been living in the forest of Dean for over 20 years and I'm really established here. 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:12,000 My husband's work is established here and I didn't want to up sticks and move to university. 18 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:19,000 And I when I started to look at the PhD course, I looked at my local university, it's University of Gloucestershire. 19 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,000 And I also then looked to Exeter because of the distance programme. 20 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:32,000 And for me, choosing a university where the supervisors match my kind of interests and can give me the best experience was important. 21 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:40,000 And I wanted to study at Exeter, but I didn't want to move. So that's really why I chose the distance programme. 22 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:50,000 What about you, Sam? For me, I think it was because the university has a specialist centre for maritime history 23 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:58,000 and I discovered that it was possible to do an MPhil or a PhD via distance learning. 24 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:04,000 So I got in touch with the department and said, this is the area that I'm thinking about working in. 25 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:09,000 And they put me in touch with Dr Helen Doe, who is now one of my supervisors. 26 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Brilliant. And so can you tell us a little bit about the kind of day to day experience of being a distance PGR? 27 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Obviously, it's gonna it's gonna be markedly different from those they're based on or living near campus. 28 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:33,000 Well, for me, it's I tried to get myself into a routine and get obviously just the normal getting up 29 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:38,000 and getting ready in the morning and then sit down with the computer to start working 30 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,000 sort of between nine and 10 and having access to things like the shut up and write 31 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:49,000 sessions have been really good because they give you some structure to your day. 32 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:57,000 And I then tend to work for two to three hours in the morning, have a lunch break and try and then and do other things for a while. 33 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Look away from the screen and really refresh the brain and come back to again in the afternoon. 34 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,000 But I think it gives you flexibility. 35 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Working actually at home as a distance student, because if you're not well or like me, you have a medical condition. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:18,000 You don't have to work at set times you don't have to be in when other people are in the know in an office. 37 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:25,000 If you if you're not feeling up to working in the morning, you can always shift your day and work later and work into the evenings. 38 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:31,000 So it gives you a lot of flexibility. So days tend to be a bit more flexible. 39 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:38,000 But I try to get that structure in of trying to do two to three hours in the morning and two to three hours in the afternoon. 40 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:45,000 What about you, Sam, because you're obviously managing this part time with work. 41 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Yeah, I think I am. I think it's I think the point that Jo has made about routine is really, really important one. 42 00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:00,000 And this is kind of second time around for me. I did a doctorate 28 years ago now. 43 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:06,000 In fact, I suspect there's some PGRs who weren't even born. 44 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:14,000 My doctorate previously that was done full time with an economic and social research council studentship. 45 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,000 And even then, I had a routine. I was very lucky. 46 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:25,000 I was a research centre in Oxford and I had I shared an office, so I had a routine then. 47 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,000 My routine now as a part time PGR is obviously very different. 48 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:37,000 And I think that there's different pre and post lockdown, certainly pre lockdown. 49 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,000 I was juggling it with a full time job. 50 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:52,000 So. I would be working during the day and then take the dog for a walk at tea time, come back and then work on my, my, my, 51 00:05:52,000 --> 00:06:06,000 my thesis for a couple of hours, and I'd usually spend at least one day weekend, if not a day and a half at the weekend on on on university work. 52 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,000 Post lockdown has been very different for me because my contract work dried up. 53 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:21,000 So kind of flipped around and I'm not. I've basically been been working full time, but generally working during the day. 54 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Which is, you know, has been fantastic. It certainly kept me sane. 55 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,000 Having having that discipline and like Jo, I've been, you know, 56 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:38,000 shaping my weeks around the shut up and write sessions and having those sort of two hours in the morning and then two hours in the afternoon. 57 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,000 And I'll generally work on a little bit afterwards. But it's just been fantastic. 58 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:51,000 And it's and it's really, really supportive community. I was taking part in them before and in webinars. 59 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:59,000 You know, since I started in 2018. But I think they have a very different feel to them at the moment. 60 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,000 It's just a really, really supportive environment and a great community. 61 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,000 And I would recommend them to absolutely anybody. Definitely. 62 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:14,000 They've made a huge difference to me as well. You know, lockdown has has changed a lot of things for people. 63 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:20,000 And although I was working from home on my PhD full time, anyway, 64 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:28,000 the lockdown had a different impact on sort of mental health and mental well-being in that being in a shut up and write group. 65 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:36,000 I can't go out, but having that community, knowing that every morning or most mornings and most afternoons, 66 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:45,000 I'm going to be with a group of like minded people who are sharing some of those issues has made a massive difference. 67 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,000 And like some is, you know, I would agree it's been a game changer, 68 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:57,000 really having all of those sessions and access to those sessions that you can just step in and out if you want to. 69 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,000 It has been a tremendous thing, certainly during lockdown. 70 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:10,000 Because that was going to be one of my really crucial questions was about sense of connection and community. 71 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,000 And you both obviously really experience that, particularly during lockdown. 72 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:23,000 I'm interested to know how you feel like the opportunities for connection and for engagement with the university, 73 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,000 but also that sense of community, you know, has. Has that changed? 74 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,000 Has it got better because of lockdown? 75 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:39,000 So has this kind of I guess what I'm asking is, has a lockdown provided kind of more opportunities for you as a distance student? 76 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:44,000 I think so, I mean, I I've made quite a few trips down to the university to try and network with 77 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,000 people before lockdown and so had built up some friends within the art history, 78 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:54,000 visual culture area. And so that had been fine. 79 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:04,000 But I think the shut up and write sessions in lockdown have provided a wider range of people to connect with at different stages. 80 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:12,000 So I think it has made a huge difference in lockdown and it has got better. 81 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,000 Yeah, I think it's got better in lockdown for me. What about you, Sam. 82 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Yeah, I think like Jo, you know, I try and get down to her when I can. 83 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Ironically, I haven't actually been on campus since May last year. 84 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:39,000 Because I've been seeing my supervisors elsewhere in London, for example, and Bristol and having Skype supervisions as well. 85 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:47,000 But certainly, I, I really, really enjoy coming down to Exeter and going on to going on to the campus, 86 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:52,000 going into the library and and feeling connected in that way. 87 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,000 And also, you have some very nice breweries down in Devon. 88 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:04,000 So that's always really nice as well. But I think things have got better after lockdown. 89 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:13,000 I find there's been some really excellent. College of Humanities webinars as well. 90 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:20,000 That's Stacey Hynd's been running, which again, I think made me feel very connected. 91 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:29,000 So we've talked a little bit about shut up and write and and the college webinars and also some. 92 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,000 You've mentioned the fantastic programme that's offered in humanities. 93 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:41,000 But what other ways do you primarily engage with and connect with the university as a distance student? 94 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,000 I think there's a lot of engagement through Twitter as well. 95 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:54,000 And, you know, following those different accounts and actually engaging with the conversations and discussions that's happening there. 96 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:59,000 And that's not just what the doctoral college itself and the university, but also with. 97 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,000 I mean, certainly for me, with the Department of Humanities, but with other PGRs 98 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,000 And there's often conversations going on sort of in that Twitter sphere that are really interesting as well. 99 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:17,000 That's that's another way that I found of engaging and connecting with other other PGRs and with the university. 100 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:30,000 One of the things I found really helpful. It's the library and the ability to borrow books, obviously pre lockdown to have them posted out. 101 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:40,000 It was very I was very fortunate. I managed to get hold of a I think back in February of a book that was was sent out to me by the university library, 102 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:47,000 which if I hadn't had access to, I wouldn't have been able to write the thesis chapter that I had been working on for the last couple of months. 103 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:54,000 But also the support that you can access through the library online. 104 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:03,000 There's a little chat box. And I had some some really, really excellent help from from from the library staff over the last few months. 105 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Now, if I've been struggling to access a journal or struggling to find something and, you know, that's that's that's just been fantastic. 106 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:19,000 A really, really good resource. And another way in which, you know, you do feel you do feel connected and you feel supported as well. 107 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:26,000 What are the real challenges and the areas that we need to improve. 108 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,000 I think a lot of it does go down to who you are as a distance learner as well, 109 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,000 because you do have people who will just be content to sit back and not actually engage. 110 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:44,000 But I like to engage with people, like to talk to people. And I've not really had an issue connecting with people in that way. 111 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,000 I mean, I've enjoyed everything so far and felt really supported and really glad that 112 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:54,000 I chose Exeter sort of distance learning as opposed to Gloucester University, 113 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:03,000 which would have been on my doorstep and I could have been a face to face there. You've hit on the key point I think, which is about. 114 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:10,000 Yourself, because obviously, you know, the fact that I've asked you to be on this podcast. 115 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Means that we've connected virtually and met fleetingly in person. 116 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:27,000 You are both incredibly active on Twitter and in the shut up and write groups and the various other activities in the community, 117 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:35,000 and I think that's probably. Well, I know, I know that's why you're getting so much out of your experience, because, I mean, 118 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:42,000 to get the most out of any research degree, you need to be proactive and you need to be engaging. 119 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:50,000 But I think that's even more crucial when you're at a distance. It requires an awful lot of work on the part of the student. 120 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:56,000 And you both do that. Yes, it does. I mean, it during my M.A, which was a distance programme. 121 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,000 We started as a cohort of twenty five on the M.A and people dropped out because they just 122 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000 couldn't deal with the fact that they were in this virtual community that was online. 123 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:14,000 And that was the way that you connected with people. And then when we had face to face events where we would meet up, 124 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 quite a few people wouldn't come because they couldn't make that transition between the two areas. 125 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,000 So they couldn't transition from being distance to being face to face, 126 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:29,000 or they were struggling themselves to actually engage with the content and engage with the rest of the cohort digitally. 127 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:38,000 They would struggle and webinars because obviously they they just couldn't actually make that transition from real life into the digital world. 128 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,000 And I think if you're the kind of person that is going to try and get the most 129 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,000 out of it and you are prepared to put some work in to make those connections, 130 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,000 I think that it's it's all there for the taking. 131 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,000 It is down to you to actually make a bit of effort to no one's going to hand you it a plate and say, hey, you are here's your 132 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,000 Nice little you're going to talk to you do not actually need to go. 133 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,000 Hello. I'm here. I'd like to be involved. How can I be involved? 134 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:08,000 And I think you know your personality. If you're deciding to do a distance learning programme, you really need to look at. 135 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:17,000 Are you disciplined and organised individual? And can you actually make links with people over sort of digital and virtual networks? 136 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,000 I think that's absolutely right, Jo. 137 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:26,000 I think, you know, I think it's it's like many things in life, the more that you put into it, the more that you you get out of it. 138 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:33,000 And, you know, I know that I am very fortunate that I've worked from home for the best part of 20 years. 139 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:40,000 You know, obviously with travelling around and travelling into workplaces and things. But so I'm used to having that discipline. 140 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:46,000 I have a spare bedroom, which is, basically it sounds glorifies 141 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:54,000 it to call it a study. To be honest, it's just full of piles of books and papers and and photography gear and stuff like that. 142 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:02,000 But I have that space where when I'm in here I'm either working or I'm studying. 143 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,000 You know, it's not somewhere where I'll come and sit in at night to watch. a film on my my screen or whatever. 144 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,000 So I have that difference between, you know, when I'm in my kitchen or I'm in my lounge. 145 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:21,000 That's my kind of downtime when I'm in here. I'm either working or I'm doing university stuff or I'm doing RNLI stuff. 146 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,000 So I think, you know, I'm very lucky that I've got that. 147 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:28,000 And I know that, you know, more widely in the community, you know, sort of outside the university. 148 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000 But I know that during lockdown, 149 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:35,000 a lot of people have been struggling with that transition from being in a workplace to all of a sudden working from home and 150 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:44,000 having to do home schooling at the same time finding out that your partners got really irritating habits that you didn't know. 151 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:51,000 And, you know, so so I kind of I feel that I've I've I've I've kind of coming from quite a strong position anyway. 152 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000 But I think I think it's true. 153 00:16:52,000 --> 00:17:00,000 It is it it is what you what you what you put into it, what you what you choose to invest, you know, you will get repaid. 154 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:10,000 You know, in in triplicate. I think the one thing that I think I'm, I miss is having that face to face contact. 155 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,000 You being able to pop into, you know, if you were based at university, being able to, you know, 156 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:22,000 go and chat to other PGRs, you know, just without having to sort of arrange a call or or whatever. 157 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,000 And I think just going into the library and being able to browse, you know, 158 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:35,000 it's great being able to search the catalogue and look on, you know, I mean, didn't the electronic resources that we have now. 159 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:41,000 I mean, I don't know how I managed to complete it in 1992. 160 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:49,000 Had I don't know how that worked. I know I spent a fortune on photocopying, that's for sure. 161 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:57,000 But. You know, just being able to go and browse the shelves and think, oh, that's that's interesting, 162 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:06,000 that's that's an angle that I haven't, you know, I haven't thought about. So I think, you know, I just I just love libraries and bookshops anyway. 163 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000 So for me, you know, whenever I'm I'm I'm down in Exeter, then, you know, 164 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:20,000 I do spend an inordinate amount of time in the library, quite often browsing books that have to be. 165 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:26,000 Oh, so. Yeah, I. But I think some. 166 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,000 For me, I find that it's working very well. It was working very well before lockdown. 167 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,000 I've got two great supervisors, very, very supportive. 168 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Dr. Helen Doe and Dr. James Davey. And but I think since lockdown. 169 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000 You know, I think I think there's been like a step change, really. 170 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000 And I do think a lot of it has been shut up and write groups. 171 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:58,000 It's you know, that they have been I think they're a real success story at the moment. 172 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,000 Definitely. And I think for people who are used to being actually at the university, 173 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:09,000 realising that this can all still happen in the virtual world and they can still feel connected. 174 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:18,000 I think that it's actually been quite an eye opener for them and perhaps makes them realise how different it is being a distance student. 175 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:24,000 But actually, for a lot of those people who have been struggling potentially with having to go and 176 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,000 work from home or go back to their families and working from their childhood bedrooms, 177 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,000 they realise that they can still connect with people. 178 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:41,000 And I think, you know, in that respect, I think some of myself are lucky because, you know, we chose this way to learn. 179 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,000 Other people have sort of been thrown in the deep end. 180 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:49,000 So I think we've been a bit perhaps a bit more resilient to the changes and the issues around lockdown. 181 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:58,000 But, you know, I think that's made a big difference for us, being able to actually help other people as well, saying, you know, it does work this way. 182 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,000 You can learn this way and we can make steps progress. Well, I think. 183 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,000 Yeah. Yeah. So say I think we're a little bit lucky in that respect because we were used to it. 184 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:12,000 But I think it has got a lot better. And that community is building and building and building. 185 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Being proactive in getting the most you can out of the experience seems to have been the the thread of this whole conversation. 186 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:28,000 The. You know, being a distance student requires you. 187 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:38,000 To be much more proactive. But because it requires that of you has the potential to make the experience richer. 188 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:43,000 I think, um, I think project management is is a is really important as well. 189 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:49,000 I've worked as a programme manager and a project manager in previous lives, 190 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:55,000 and I think that's a really useful skill to bring, especially at the moment. 191 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,000 Now, where a lot of people that, you know, they may have had a really good project, 192 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:07,000 plans for their research, and all of a sudden it's they've just been torn up. 193 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,000 You know, people are unable to get into. 194 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:19,000 People are unable to go and carry out, you know, face to face interviews if they're working in social science, for example. 195 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:25,000 And those of us who are working in history are unable to get into archives. 196 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:37,000 There is you know, there is material available online. But, you know, the really important stuff, you know, inevitably, generally isn't. 197 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:43,000 So it's you know, it's having to then re, you know, replan and and not to. 198 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,000 And having your project plan, being a living document as well, not to sort of producing it and then thinking, well, that's that. 199 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,000 I've done that for the upgrade and now just sort crack on and, you know, put it away in a in a drawer somewhere. 200 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:02,000 It's it's actually living thing and and managing risk as well because, you know, the. 201 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,000 The future is uncertain. 202 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:13,000 You know, from a personal perspective, I don't know when I'm going to be able to get back into the archives that I need to get into. 203 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,000 I mean, I'm fortunate I'm still at a relatively early stage because I'm only my second year part time. 204 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,000 So first year equivalent. So there is a lot that I can still be doing. 205 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:30,000 But there is going to come a point where it's kind of I really do need to get into the archives or get back into the archives. 206 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,000 And so it's it's it's very challenging. 207 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:44,000 And I think it's and I think. So that's a sort of extra layer of challenge, if you like, to people who are perhaps not used to. 208 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:52,000 To, you know, to working from home to working from from a distance. And that gives you another skill, obviously, 209 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,000 that we could have brought up earlier about resilience and actually being able to 210 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,000 bounce back when things are presented to you that you are beyond your control, 211 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,000 that affect your work and actually being able to to think outside of the box almost. 212 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,000 And think of another way of attacking some of that work and perhaps progressing with a different part. 213 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Being able to pick things up and put them down. 214 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:21,000 And I think being distance does take give you a lot of resilience and a lot of ability to be able to be flexible in 215 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:27,000 what bit you might be able to do because of the resources and things that are available to you at that point in time. 216 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:35,000 If there are people listening who are thinking about starting a distance research degree or even changing. 217 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:43,000 Yeah. To studying a distance, if they're midway through, what advice would you give them? 218 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,000 I think the main thing for me would be. 219 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:54,000 Be realistic about whether or not you are disciplined and organised enough to do it from home because it sounds great working from home. 220 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:06,000 But if you are just going to be at home distracted by the tele and your family and animals or other activities, and you're not going to commit to it. 221 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:13,000 I think that you need to give it some serious thought. You need to understand that it's still a research degree. 222 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:20,000 It is still either full time or part time. And you need to commit a certain number of hours to it in order to get the most out of it. 223 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:26,000 And I think if you and if you don't have a supportive network around you, people who understand that when you're at home, 224 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:32,000 it's not that you're at home and your available to go out for coffee or whatever, that you are at home and you are working, 225 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:40,000 then that's also quite important and being realistic about where you might work in a do you have that space at home? 226 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,000 Do you have an area that is good for reading an area? Good. 227 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,000 That's good for writing those kind of things or being creative, whatever it is you need to do. 228 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:56,000 So you need to make sure that you've got access to those spaces that you can distinguish between that and your home life, basically. 229 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:05,000 I think that's all really, really good advice. I think it's I think you have to ask yourself very, very, very firmly. 230 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Do you have the commitment? Do you have the passion to do this? 231 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:17,000 Because when you're waking up on a Sunday morning, if you're a part timer like me and the sun is out, your friends are, you know, 232 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:26,000 having a barbecue and you've got to start you've got to spend eight hours reading about Victorian charity and philanthropy, 233 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,000 you know, because you you you have to you have to have that commitment. 234 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,000 You have to have that discipline. And it you know, it's it's not always easy. 235 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:42,000 I had some very good advice from a friend who had done an open university degree who said, you know, 236 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:50,000 when you come to do your studying in the evening, don't take a break from from from from from, you know, 237 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:58,000 don't have some downtime between work and study because you'll you'll not do it because you said that's what I found, is that, you know, 238 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,000 if I just thought I'm just going to have half an hour and, you know, 239 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,000 watch the news or whatever, then before you know it, you know, it's two hours later. 240 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,000 And your actually I'm too tired. And so I goes back to this point. 241 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:21,000 That routine is, you know, I would finish work, take my dog out for a for a walk, come back and then bang into into the study. 242 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,000 And so it's having it's having that commitment, you know, do you do you care? 243 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:34,000 Do you really, really care about this this this thing that you want to research because you need that that fire to keep going when your mates are 244 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:41,000 all having a lovely barbecue in the sun and in on the one day that the sun comes up here in Scotland and you've got a deadline, 245 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:47,000 you've got a you know, you've you've got to stay indoors and. 246 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:55,000 So it is. And I think I think the point that Jo made as well about having a support network around you. 247 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,000 It's really important. And having a workspace is is really important. 248 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:12,000 And just if you're a few of the right, you know, if you're the sort of personality who is willing to be proactive and is willing to to to make. 249 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,000 To make the most out of out of this and and and keep going. 250 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,000 I. Yeah, those are all the sort of things that I would say. 251 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,000 But if if if you want to do it. The support is there for you. 252 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,000 From the university. Definitely. And, you know, you'll you'll find it ironic. 253 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,000 I didn't actually I haven't actually visited the first time I visited the campus of 254 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,000 Exeter was for my PGR induction because I knew I was going to be working at a distance. 255 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,000 And what mattered to me was, was having that sense for maritime history, 256 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:51,000 that having having that that interest there and having been able to access the support. 257 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:57,000 So it was a really lovely surprise when I turned up and realised that it's really, really beautiful campus. 258 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,000 And I think our beautiful campus is probably a really good note to end on. 259 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:10,000 Thank you so much to Sam and Jo for taking the time out of their day to talk to me about being a distance PGR and really share some 260 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:21,000 important insights into what that experience is like and the kind of person you need to be to undertake a research degree at a distance. 261 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:27,000 So is going to become more and more popular, I think, in the kind of post COVID 19 World. 262 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:41,000 And so I think it's it's crucial that we get the message out about how positive and connected and supportive that distance research experience can be. 263 00:28:41,000 --> 00:29:13,633 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me next time when I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development and everything in between.  

"Refer to me as a goddess, I'm tired of being modest" #BlackLivesMatter Quotable words for life-changing times. In this special episode I will be sharing 5 (I did say 4 but it's bonuses all round with me!) things we should all commit to in our workspace, life and all the inbetweens. My friend Jacqui (a real queen!) challenged me to use what I know to help our black community and so this is one of the many avenues I can be an agent for permanent change. Whilst this episode is primarily for the black community, there are learnings for everyone. My 5 focus points are: - Overcoming the fear of speaking out - Unlearning Code-Switching in the workplace and beyond - The different types of Unconscious Bias, its relation to white privilege & the part we play in combating it - Being Confident & Calm - Remembering Your Joy You can watch the video here: RESOURCES McKinsey report (2015): https://mck.co/30eRWSF Updated 2018 report: https://mck.co/2UgYNaJ 12 Common Biases That Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions: https://bit.ly/2XEQ6sG The Curve Podcast - Instagram & Twitter: @thecurvepodcast Listen to the Curve podcast here: http://linktr.ee/thecurvepodcast Subscribe to CommunityD Podcast on Soundcloud, Spotify or Apple Podcasts Share your thoughts using the #CommunityDPod hashtag on Twitter or tag @communitydpod on Instagram To submit a #CommunityDilemma or feedback email communitydpod@gmail.com or submit anonymously via http://bit.ly/communitydilemma Instagram & Twitter: @communitydpod

In this special episode I talk to Victoria Omotoso, PGR in Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter, about being a BAME researcher in Higher Education and the world today. During the podcast we reference: AdvanceHE Equality in Higher Education Statistical Report 2019 An article from the American Psychological Association about Unmasking Racial Microaggressions Noughts+Crosses, a BBC adaptation of the novel by Malories Blackman and I was wrong, Malorie Blackman was not the first black woman writer for Doctor Who – she was the first black writer in the show's 50+ year history   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Episode Transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens.   2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.   3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Hello and welcome to this special episode of Researchers Development and the Inbetweens   4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,000 I recognise it's slightly strange to have a special episode of a podcast when your one episode into the series,   5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:52,000 but I wanted to provide a response to the events going on across the world and particularly in America and the death of George Floyd.   6 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:59,000 One of the things I want to do with this podcast is provide a platform to discuss the real lived experiences of our researchers.   7 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:08,000 And it would seem remiss to let this opportunity go by to talk about the experience of being a BAME researcher in higher education.   8 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,000 I'm delighted to be joined by one of our PGR, Victoria Omotoso   9 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:19,000 to discuss being a BAME researcher in higher education and generally in the world today.   10 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,000 I want to point out that I have not edited this conversation.   11 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:30,000 And the reason for that is I don't want to use my privileged perspective to change or alter Victoria's voice.   12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,000 So, Victoria, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yes. Hi, Kelly.   13 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:45,000 Thanks for having me. So my name is Victoria. Omotoso. I am a PhD Theology candidate and just recently submitted. Congratulations.   14 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:50,000 Thank you. I'm currently   15 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:59,000 at the University of Exeter. Yes, my research kind of looks into the Jesus films and yeah,   16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:05,000 it touches a lot actually on ethnicity in films and how Hollywood has whitewashed a lot of stuff.   17 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,000 So yes. Thanks for having me. Thank you.   18 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:19,000 And the so to start with is really, really big an open question, which is just about what is it like to be a.   19 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,000 BAME researcher in higher education. What's the environment like for you?   20 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:30,000 What's the experience? Yeah, definitely being a BAME researcher.   21 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:39,000 I think one of the main things you kind of come out from is that, you know, that there is there is an underlying thread, right.   22 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:46,000 Of kind of inequality and discrimination. And a lot of that comes with stereotyping as well.   23 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:52,000 And it does kind of lead you when you do occupy these white spaces.   24 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Makes you so much more conscious, actually, of the colour of your skin. And even though that shouldn't be a thing and, you know, in this modern age.   25 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:07,000 But you do feel that especially in, you know, we enter a room and you are the only,   26 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,000 you know, BAME researcher, you know, whether it be at a conference many times.   27 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Many of times I've entered conferences. I'm the only the only BAME researcher there.   28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 Or, you know, seminars. And sometimes when you.   29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000 You know, Ia lot of the times when we're talking about things, you know, in the humanities,   30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000 for example, you know, we're talking about, you know, histories and stuff like that.   31 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,000 And you're always conscious of how people can respond.   32 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,000 If I speak out, they're just going to label me as an angry black woman.   33 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:45,000 Or are they going to, you know, just say, oh, she's just another person that's just trying to make a point.   34 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:52,000 So all those things just come into play and you're constantly just aware on how you have to navigate yourself through these,   35 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,000 you know, through the walls of of H-E really. And.   36 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,000 You know, there's always a sense of. Trying to over perform.   37 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:12,000 That's a big thing that always just comes up because I think we all. No matter what race you are, we all experience imposter syndrome.   38 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,000 Right? You know, we all have that. We all have that thing.   39 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:24,000 But it's somehow always heightened because you feel that I need to prove.   40 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:33,000 To the white people that I'm good enough. Oh, gee, I'm like, you have to almost.   41 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Kind of prove that as a point. That, yeah, I, too, can engage in, you know, intelligent conversation, because, to be honest,   42 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:50,000 I have experienced, you know, some people that, you know, would just kind of pass me by.   43 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,000 But when I open my mouth. They'll be like, wow, I, I have no idea.   44 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000 You know, you were educated like that. Oh, seriously.   45 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:05,000 You know. And and it's just again, it's just this kind of this underlying kind of like I said,   46 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,000 this underlying thread that so, you know, just building up stereotypes that.   47 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:16,000 You know need to be broken down. Really, for people to be able to actually break through those walls.   48 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:23,000 And look, I will acknowledge that  personally, I acknowledge that I'm privileged to be able to study.   49 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:29,000 You know, in institutions. Everyone that's able to study in HE is a privilege.   50 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:36,000 Absolutely. Exactly. And but, you know, I am also aware that.   51 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,000 The colour of my skin, may, sometimes acts as a barrier for me.   52 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:50,000 And, you know, I think. It comes to a point of trying to just dismantle those.   53 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:57,000 Structures that have been set in place, but they can't be done by BAME researchers alone.   54 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Absolutely.   55 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:10,000 And I think for me, some of the things that I found really striking in the past few years are not necessarily some of the instances of racism,   56 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:18,000 which, you know, we we we will talk about kind of some of those in a bit, but some of the more structural things and the more subtle things.   57 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:25,000 So, for instance AdvanceHE did an equality report a couple of years and it said that   58 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:31,000 So you UK professors by ethnic group. Ninety one point two percent of professors in the U.K. are white and Nought.   59 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,000 Six are black. Less than one percent. Less than one percent.   60 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,000 And the you know, and we know that there is a black attainment gap.   61 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,000 We know that at both a level and at degree level.   62 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:51,000 And we see, you know, there's some. I'll share in the show notes, some of these statistics.   63 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,000 And I linked to this information because they've done infographics and I think they're really powerful   64 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:04,000 and they've done one that sort of shows the amount of white and BAME students in academia starting at   65 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:10,000 undergraduate level and how that changes as you go through kind of into postgraduate research, lectureships   66 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:17,000 and professors and the amount of white people goes up and the amount of BAME people goes down.   67 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 And it's really striking because you can just I think in that see that structure.   68 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,000 Yeah, and how it is. Like you say, it is a white space. Yeah.   69 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Yeah. So one of the things that we can't really ignore is what the University of Exeter is geographically located.   70 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Yes. And this is something we've discussed before.   71 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:52,000 We are in the south west of England, which is and I think the politest way to put it is not the most multicultural area of this country.   72 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:02,000 Was that a consideration for you in coming to study in the south west?   73 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,000 No, because if I'm honest, I mean, I came from King's College in London.   74 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:16,000 And when I first was, you know, just making a trip, I didn't I didn't really know much about Exeter.   75 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:21,000 It wasn't really a place I'd considered. I knew of the university had a great reputation, of course.   76 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,000 But I you know, and I've heard that all is a beautiful part of the world.   77 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:34,000 But in terms of, you know, the city itself, I never really had much information on it, on it at first.   78 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,000 I will be honest, it was not a concern for me.   79 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:52,000 But when I did my first week, we got a little cottage somewhere where we were waiting for, you know, getting ready for the new academic uear to start.   80 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:58,000 And that was when I was like, oh, OK, this is the Southwest.   81 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Yeah. You know, I mean, it was just so like I grew up I grew up in South Africa.   82 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:11,000 Right. OK. So so, you know, we know everyone knows, you know, the history of of that nation.   83 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:20,000 Right. Major racial tensions. So it wouldn't be what would it be anything new to me if I were to experience, you know,   84 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,000 some form of either kind of injustice, like kind of very subtle injustice or subtle discrimination.   85 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:34,000 But when I moved to the Southwest, it was almost like a new can had opened for me.   86 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000 It was just.   87 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Microaggressions, stares, people trying to touch my hair because it was something it was was something I have never experienced.   88 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:54,000 I moved down here and it just at first I was just like, very confused.   89 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:59,000 The whole thing. I'm like, is it that they actually have never seen a black person before?   90 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:09,000 Or that they feel that they've never seen a black person before or that they don't have any interactions?   91 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000 Do I look like some kind of museum artefact to them?   92 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,000 Like, you know, it was just it was just it was just crazy to me.   93 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:29,000 Like, I would be you go into the shop and I would genuinely get people genuinely just stopping and staring.   94 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:38,000 And, you know. And then it just for me, you know, it's just as kind of I feel that there's a sense that.   95 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:47,000 For black people, again, this is kind of I know I don't want to call it ownership but it's almost s like if a black body enters into the room,   96 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:54,000 it's like, you know, what's gonna happen next? You know, and even just the whole thing of touching hair, like, you know,   97 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,000 just going up to someone and touching that a stranger and touching their heads.   98 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,000 It's the most kind of invasive part of. Incredibly, you know.   99 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:08,000 But again, what is it about? I asked that question.   100 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,000 I like, what is it about black bodies that white people think that that's OK?   101 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:19,000 You know, that some white people think that that's OK. To be able to come and just, you know.   102 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:25,000 Place your hands on them, say, you know, things like that walking, you know you do, you just so much more aware.   103 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:31,000 You know, the conscious ness of it all is very daunting, I think.   104 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:39,000 And like we said, I think you were saying, you know. A lot of the racism is not aggressive.   105 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,000 A lot of it is formed into the subtle ness of it.   106 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:56,000 And. And I think that is. Like you said, that is what actually brings a lot of impact because you're just like it's just the everyday.   107 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:02,000 The ordinary everyday where these experiences continue to happen because of the colour of your skin.   108 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:08,000 And there seems to be a lot in what you're saying about othering.   109 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,000 Yes. Oh, the other. Yes. Honestly, it's yeah, you're completely right.   110 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:19,000 Because I think I don't know. It is just kind of I think it also goes back to year to year.   111 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:26,000 If we go back decades ago when this whole thing of, you know, exoticism and like the fetishising of black bodies and all of that.   112 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,000 I think it all kind of plays into that rhetorically. Right.   113 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:38,000 Of the other of this otherness that is actually, you know, it does form from the same system that has, you know,   114 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:47,000 used used it as a form of, you know, almost as I don't want to say, you know, like of almost a form of entertainment in a way.   115 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:59,000 Absolutely. I mean, I, I see it you see it so often with attitudes to disability as well, like the the kind of othering or the kind of freak show.   116 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,000 of the early 20th century. Yes, definitely.   117 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:12,000 And you can say and I've heard a lot of people talk to me about kind of that again, that fetishisation, I can't say that word.   118 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,000 Fetishisation of disabled bodies. Yes.   119 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:21,000 And and and it it certainly seems to me   120 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:28,000 from my perspective on the situation that it is there seems to be the underpinning of the attitude   121 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:37,000 of the freak show or of exoticism that just seems to be still so embedded in our culture.   122 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:50,000 Yes. Yes. And I I think, like you said, it's those micro aggressions, it's those those subtle forms of racism that we are not.   123 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,000 When I say we, I mean as myself, as a kind of privileged white person, we don't know.   124 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,000 We don't see. No, we don't see in the same. Well, we certainly don't see in the same way.   125 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,000 And there's been lots of discussions in the sector.   126 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000 So there's a podcast called WonkHE.   127 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:16,000 And there was a really interesting episode where they talked about how they were gonna deal with a level grades and predicted grades and the argument   128 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,000 And somebody tried to argue that this was gonna be a great leveller for people.   129 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000 And actually, the someone said, well, no.   130 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Because we know statistically that predicted grades for black students in the UK are much lower than what they actually achieve.   131 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000 So this is a system that's gonna work against them.   132 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:41,000 Yeah. And and it's those sorts of I think it's those sorts of structural.   133 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,000 Discriminations are underpinning everything we do. Yeah.   134 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:56,000 Yeah. Know you're completely right. It's the thing is, it's it's this is generations like we see what's happening right now.   135 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,000 This is generations upon generations of trauma.   136 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:06,000 I mean, my grandmother would tell me stories of when she was working in London in the 60s of people screaming.   137 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:14,000 I heard the N-word actually down the street. And she said there's no way she can raise her children.   138 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:21,000 And like, you know, she you know, she is fighting for equality in the 60s.   139 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Here I am. Her granddaughter is still talking about this today. So this is I mean,   140 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:33,000 this is a generational thing of we've hit we've heard the stories of what of our parents or what our grandparents   141 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:42,000 have gone through and now their children are still having to face these same battles in our own way.   142 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:48,000 And again, you know, like you said, the structure of it needs to be completely broken down.   143 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:57,000 But I think it is like you said, you know. priviledge, people that come from a place of privilege.   144 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000 Need to be away, and I think what's happening right now with this whole you know,   145 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:12,000 with the whole George Floyd we've been the brave movement is that you are seeing thousands and thousands of people and a lot of white people are.   146 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:21,000 Recognising, you know, say that, hey, I'm so sorry that I took me this long to recognise my my privilege.   147 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:28,000 But, you know, I think I think they've always known that there was a privilege. Right. I mean, I think I think we all are aware of white privilege.   148 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:35,000 I think we're all aware of the systems that are put in place that are able to benefit some more than others.   149 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,000 But when it benefits you, it's easier to it's very easy to ignore. Exactly.   150 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,000 Exactly. And I think it's in your favour. Exactly.   151 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,000 And and that has is that's been the story, hasn't it?   152 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,000 For so long. And it's not even the whole   153 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:59,000 You know, this whole inequality of everything is the kind of society we live in.   154 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:06,000 Yes. Especially in the UK. I have seen people be abused, racially abused on public transport.   155 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,000 And nobody no, I mean, it's another person of colour that's having to step in.   156 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,000 Yes. And, you know, there's nobody is standing up.   157 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:23,000 No white person in that bus was, you know, was able to stand up and say, hey, that's not OK.   158 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:31,000 So, you know, it's it's just this. I think the the passiveness of it all, I think is actually what?   159 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,000 What's that way when it starts to arose? We almost become desensitised to the whole   160 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:44,000 Yeah. And I saw something Will Smith had actually posted a couple of days ago that said.   161 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,000 So if there isn't some. It was something like there hasn't been a resurgence of racism.   162 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,000 It's just being filmed. Yes. Yes, I saw that. Yes, exactly.   163 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:59,000 Exactly. I just I find that really powerful, just as a kind of reminder that just because you aren't seeing something.   164 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:05,000 Exactly. And if you if you are white and if you are privileged, you're not going to see it.   165 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:13,000 Not not that regularly as it occurs. That's so true, that's so true.   166 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,000 You go, you go, sorry, I was just agreeing with what you said.   167 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:22,000 You know, it's it's some. This is not new to black people.   168 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,000 No. These experiences aren't new to us. We.   169 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:35,000 We mean, we know of people this has happened to you. I guess you know of family members who've been detained just because of the colour of their skin.   170 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,000 We know you know, this is not this is not.   171 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,000 I've got two brothers that are black men. Yeah.   172 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:48,000 And. I even just going to our local shop down the road.   173 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:56,000 I have to tell him, take your hoodie off, like, don't wear a hat because you're a black man.   174 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:05,000 And they will be watching you. So, you know, it's just things like that that whereas if his white friend, you know, wore a beanie or hoodie,   175 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:15,000 you know, no business, no suspicion, you know, or he's going for a walk even when we're in Africa.   176 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:21,000 He's going for a walk. And if he's detained because he's black, because he shouldn't be here, it's a white space.   177 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Why are you here? So, you know, this this these things, these experiences, It's not new to us.   178 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,000 You know, these stories are not new to black communities in the US.   179 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,000 They have been they have been going through this for generations, for years.   180 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,000 But it is finally coming into light.   181 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And and yet, you know, I think, again, it is it's finally.   182 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,000 Dawning on people that we have a serious problem.   183 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,000 And I think a lot of, you know, white people saying we have a serious problem and we are the ones to fix it.   184 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Because to be honest, they started this problem in the first place.   185 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:07,000 If I'm if I'm can be quite frank there. Absolutely. And like you said before, you know.   186 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:12,000 And there's a lot of discussion about this at the moment in various different groups,   187 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:20,000 that it's the people with the privilege have to speak up and start the change because we're the ones with the power and the privilege.   188 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:27,000 This is what you know what this is. I think I literally sent this to my mother yesterday and I said, this is it.   189 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:34,000 All this is great. All this change is great. I said, but we need the white people because they are the ones in power.   190 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,000 They are the ones sitting on those boards. They are the ones making those policies.   191 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:48,000 And I said, you know, we need them. To be able to step up and activate, you know, what is started at grassroots.   192 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:55,000 And only then can we start to see the dismantling of white supremacy, you know.   193 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:06,000 Yeah. And. I've had a lot of people talk as well about the emotional labour that gets put on people from discriminated groups in general,   194 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:13,000 where they are the people that have to fight for change. You know, when they're already fighting just for their existence.   195 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Yeah, yeah. And the the impact of that on mental health and physical health, it's very true.   196 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:32,000 And  like you say, you know. You go into most, you know, senior boards of senior management of universities across the country.   197 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,000 It's statistically unlikely to see a woman, let alone a black woman.   198 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Yes. Yes. And, you know, there's been lots of.   199 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000 And I know that the BME network at the university have been saying a lot about actually, you know,   200 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:52,000 it's it's our it's our responsibility as white people when we're in a room and we realise   201 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:58,000 that our BAME colleagues and students aren't represented to actually speak up and say,   202 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:04,000 you know what? This is not good enough. Yeah, I'm definitely.   203 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,000 I mean, that's what we've been fighting for. We fight to to be in the room.   204 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:17,000 Yeah, to be in the room. I mean, there was a time they wouldn't even let us in the building, you know, way in the building.   205 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:24,000 You know, now what? Now we're fighting for to be in the room. And I'm not saying that I'm not trying to undermine.   206 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:30,000 I don't want to undermine history. You know, I don't undermine, obviously, the impact of what has changed.   207 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:37,000 But it's 2020 and we are still fighting for it, you know,   208 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:44,000 for against the injustice and discriminations of people because of the colour of their skin.   209 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:56,000 And that is baffling and on every level. And I think a lot of people are still finding that baffling, that the colour of my skin is not a weapon.   210 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:03,000 And the colour of my skin should not make me more suspicious than my white girlfriend.   211 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:14,000 So this kind of. This, you know, these these these retorts that have been kind of passed down, passed down, passed them continue.   212 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:21,000 They continue and. Yeah, and I think we're just finally, I think.   213 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:27,000 I said, Mom, black people we are tired   214 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,000 We're tired. We're tired. Enough is enough.   215 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,000 You know, that's that's and I think that is what is happening right now. I don't think we.   216 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:41,000 We're tired. White allies are tired, you know.   217 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,000 Everyone is tired right now of all of this, and this needs it needs to.   218 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,000 There needs to be a change. It needs to be a change.   219 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:54,000 And I think what you're saying is there's a particular cultural moment that's happening right now.   220 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:02,000 And. I want to talk a little bit about how what's going on in the world now, both in terms of the COVID 19 pandemic,   221 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:09,000 but also the the events with George Floyd and the incidents in America and the protests   222 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:15,000 and the march and how that impacts on your lived experience as a black woman,   223 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:21,000 but also as a black and BAME researcher because.   224 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000 I know that a lot of these things can seem very distant if they're happening on the other side of the world.   225 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,000 But that doesn't mean that they don't they don't change things for us.   226 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the day the day I heard about him, I cried because for me,   227 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:45,000 even though I was on the other side of the world, I'm like, this is I felt like my brother.   228 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Yeah. And I spent I was I was absolutely emotionally distraught and exhausted and.   229 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,000 And I just kept thinking to myself, like. Why?   230 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:07,000 You know, and it and it has an effect on you, because you say, you know, this is someone of.   231 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,000 This is someone that could have been my uncle, that could have been my cousin.   232 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,000 And, you know, you really do feel like you genuinely do feel like it's a family member when these things happen.   233 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:29,000 And I notice that it's hard to understand, but because you know that this is what's happening to your brothers and sisters across the pond.   234 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,000 It's just it does make your mental health.   235 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:39,000 How you navigate your space. Just a bit more difficult.   236 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,000 Really. You know, you just.   237 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,000 You know, you just it's like there's a big target on your back.   238 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:56,000 When you're walking through the streets like that is sometimes that is what I've been feeling actually the past  couple of days.   239 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,000 I just feel like there's a massive target on my back.   240 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:06,000 And not to say that people haven't been supportive or, y'know, know, my white friends haven't been supportive and,   241 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:12,000 you know, and active about, you know, you can only know your own pain.   242 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:19,000 Yeah. So, yeah, it's just it just.   243 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:26,000 Yeah, sorry. I know I'm feeling as well, I, I am.   244 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,000 It's interesting what you say about the way that it hits home is something very connected.   245 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,000 So my nephew is mixed raced. Yeah.   246 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,000 And I grew up. I do have mixed race cousins actually. But, you know, they live in London and I grew up in Devon.   247 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:46,000 So even though we're a close knit family, we we grew up quite separated in terms of those experiences.   248 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,000 Yeah. And when my nephew was sort of around five,   249 00:26:50,000 --> 00:27:02,000 there were the sorts that was the start of racist incidents towards him at school because he was the only non-white child in his entire school.   250 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:15,000 And I remember at the time. I mean, being so completely furious and devastated and you know that.   251 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:21,000 But this had started for him already, but there was and there was a shift, I think,   252 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:29,000 in my perception, because all of a sudden it was very personal in a way that I had always.   253 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,000 You know, although I would never have known this language at the time, but I had always considered myself an ally.   254 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,000 But my response to it was different. And it has in, you know, over time made me think.   255 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:49,000 But that's how angry I need to be. Whenever it happens, whoever has it, not just when it happens to my nephew, when it happens to anybody.   256 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:55,000 And I think we do we do respond differently when it's closer to our experience.   257 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:04,000 Yes. And therefore. Isn't the answer for us as privileged white people as a homogenous group   258 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:12,000 Yeah, to to learn more about the lived experiences of black and BAME people.   259 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,000 Yeah. And it's just this thing, isn't it, of just human human values.   260 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:24,000 Yeah. You know, it is. It is is this past, you know, whether you're black, whether you're white.   261 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,000 It's human value. And this is why you know.   262 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:36,000 You know, this is why we're saying like this is why people say, you know, black lives matter, because they have told us that our lives don't.   263 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:43,000 You told us that, you know. Oh, it doesn't. It doesn't it doesn't matter that we have to.   264 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,000 You know, a black model on a beauty campaign.   265 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,000 Like, it's fine. We'll just cater for one group, you know, or, you know, they've told us for so long,   266 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:59,000 they've told us it doesn't matter that you're not beautiful enough. It doesn't matter that, you know, it does.   267 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:09,000 Does it matter like it does? And that is I think that is what has become the shift that, yeah, our lives matter enough to live.   268 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,000 You know, we matter enough to be treated with respect.   269 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:25,000 We matter enough to not just be, you know, fawned over or, you know, just to not be viewed as as the other, but as a fellow human being.   270 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:32,000 And I think that kind of again, I've seen a lot on social media about, you know, the notion of Black Lives Matter.   271 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:38,000 Doesn't mean that white lives don't matter or lives matter.   272 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:46,000 It just means that. Like you say, this is a group of people who have been consistently told throughout history.   273 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:55,000 Yes. That their lives don't matter. Yes. And actually and, you know, even though we you know, we I'm not I don't contest that.   274 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,000 We've made a lot of progress. Yes. But we know that things aren't.   275 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:08,000 We know that we're not there yet. And you see that the you know, the thing that springs to mind to me is about representation of.   276 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,000 Yes. Yes. Kelly. Because.   277 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:21,000 You know, I know from my perspective as a woman that I love science fiction and superheroes and all that sort of stuff.   278 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:28,000 And it's only sort of in the past five years that we've started to see, you know, things like Star Wars with a strong female lead.   279 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,000 Yes. Yes. You know Captain Marvel for me.   280 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:37,000 Yes. Oh, my gosh. We've got a superhero that's not wearing a tiny skirt.   281 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,000 And and all of a sudden, you know it.   282 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,000 And I've had, you know, male friends say to me, but, you know, Captain Marvel is my one of my favourites of all time.   283 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,000 And they go, but it's not it's not the most amazing film. Why do you love it?   284 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,000 And it's because it's it it feels like it represents and speaks to ,e.   285 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Yes. And my experience and I've heard a lot of people talking recently in my own kind of quest to educate myself,   286 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:13,000 somebody that operates in a position of privilege. And about the you know, we've we've come quite a long way with that.   287 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:20,000 Yes. We've got a long way to go. But, you know, in terms of.   288 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,000 BAME stories and narratives.   289 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,000 We're so woefully behind. Yeah, yeah.   290 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,000 There has been I mean. You want to take it right into every spectrum, right?   291 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 I can go to. You can go to our education system.   292 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:50,000 You can go to, you know, on television, just like there has been this almost like a ratio of black stories and.   293 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:58,000 In the case that even black people don't even know we don't even know our own stories, you know, because because there is no platform,   294 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:06,000 there is no representation for us to be able to express these stories and say, hey, like there is this is another side of things.   295 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,000 You know, there is this you know, this is, you know, how black people have contributed to science.   296 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:19,000 That. Yeah, I did, too. Medicine and technology and, you know, you know, in the arts.   297 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:30,000 And these stories are so, so diminished. And, you know, it's we need to start shining a light on these stories, shining a light on modern black stories.   298 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,000 You know, our own stories. Yes. As black people living now. And who knows?   299 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,000 And representation. You know, seeing a representation is key.   300 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:48,000 And I think I think it's it's great now. I mean, I knew when I was growing up, there wasn't that many black dolls for little girls to play with.   301 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,000 Yeah. And it's great that, again, like you said, we've made some progress that, you know,   302 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:59,000 little little black girls are able to play with like those if they want to have, they can.   303 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:05,000 You know, just having the option, I think has been has been the biggest thing.   304 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:13,000 I mean, honestly, I could walk into boots and I will not have an option and I'll just walk straight back out.   305 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,000 You know, it's just things like that which kind of represent a society.   306 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,000 In fact, whether they like the fact that they aren't aware of it, I think is part of the problem.   307 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,000 That doesn't say that they are not you know, that doesn't say to, oh, you did.   308 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:32,000 This group of people are racist. But the fact that they are just so unaware is part of the problem.   309 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:40,000 The fact that they are so unaware that, oh, there is a part of the demographic of people that might not all be one team needed.   310 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,000 I remember there was a whole thing a couple of years ago, right on nude and what that meant.   311 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:49,000 And nude basically just meant white skin. Yeah. Yeah.   312 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:56,000 And we were just like, yeah. Hi,   313 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,000 Remember me? I exist. Yeah. Like, you know, we exist too, you know.   314 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:07,000 So I think, you know, I think, you know, we're starting to see I think I remember a couple months ago I was in it with   315 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,000 Tesco bringing out kind of shades of new plasters and all those things.   316 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:18,000 I think, you know, it's it's a long mountain to climb.   317 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,000 But I. I don't want to be pessimistic about it.   318 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:32,000 I think there's hope. I think that there's enough people who are starting to recognise what is going on and care enough to be liked.   319 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:42,000 Yeah, we need to be able to, you know, highlight highlight these stories and let them because, you know.   320 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,000 Yeah, I'm remembering as you're talking, I think we did.   321 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,000 I think we had a conversation on Twitter actually about noughts and crosses. Yes.   322 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,000 Oh yes. Oh, I love that show. I know. Yes.   323 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000 Yeah. So the thing that's the thing that really struck me as we're talking.   324 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,000 I mean, so this was a TV show that was on the BBC a couple of months ago.   325 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:09,000 Yeah, I think it was on BBC two, though, which in and of itself is an interesting thing worth noting.   326 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:19,000 Yes. But I, I actually read that book when the the first one of the series when it came out and I just Googled it now and it came out in 2001.   327 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:26,000 Wow. How was it taken. And it was funny. It was fabulous. And I loved it the first time I read it.   328 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:34,000 And, you know, as same as happens with so much in our lives, you know, those kind of fictions and stories are educational.   329 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,000 Definitely. And how was that taken? 20 years. Yeah.   330 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:52,000 To be made for television. I mean, irrespective of the ways that it problem arises and challenges the sections of race and.   331 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,000 Yeah, and the way that our society is structured. Yes.   332 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,000 Just an amazing story. Yes. But it didn't get made.   333 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,000 Yeah. Yeah. And I think Mallory Blackamn, who writes it.   334 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,000 She wrote an episode of Doctor Who. A couple of years ago.   335 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,000 And I think I've I think and I will double check this and correct myself in the show notes, if I'm wrong,   336 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:20,000 that she was the first black woman to ever write an episode of Doctor Who in a show that's been running for over 50 years.   337 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,000 Wow. This is the thing. It is the thing. We're still hearing of black firsts.   338 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,000 Yes. And it's twenty twenty. Yes.   339 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000 We're still hearing of first that passage to see this first.   340 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:41,000 I mean, up until last night, first black mayor in Ferguson, first black female mayor in Ferguson last night.   341 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,000 So, you know, it's it's. You know. It is. It is.   342 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,000 Yeah, it's you know, it's amazing and how. Yeah.   343 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:56,000 Society has just kind of set that up, isn't it? And just really.   344 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:03,000 It becomes so blatant now, I think. To draws to a close.   345 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:09,000 I wonder what. Thinking of the right way to phrase.   346 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:16,000 So, you know, thinking about coming back to higher education and the structural inequalities that we know exist.   347 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:25,000 The you know, the things that you've said about walking into a conference paper or a seminar and being the only BAME person in the room.   348 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:31,000 What what do we need to do, as you know? I'm talking about that homogenous group of white people again.   349 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:42,000 What do we need to do? If we've got the power and we've got the privilege, what do we as white people and H.E. need to do?   350 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,000 To help change this. For your perspective.   351 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:54,000 So I know I'm asking you as a black person for the answer, I'm aware of that in my question.   352 00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:11,000 Yeah. I always say education, education, education, and educating yourself doesn't just mean reading off lots of books about that people.   353 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:19,000 Yeah. Also means actually speaking to black people or, you know, and actually accepting them.   354 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:27,000 And I know and I mean and I always just said, like just me be genuine about wanting to accept them into the room.   355 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:33,000 You know, it's not a front. It's not a thing that, you know, we're just trying to tick a box or anything.   356 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:39,000 It's just genuinely treating them with.   357 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:49,000 You know, with the same honour and dignity as anyone else, and I think, again, you know, like you said, a lot people are kind of, you know,   358 00:38:49,000 --> 00:39:00,000 recognising their privilege, recognising, you know, the steps, the extra steps that have been put in place or the less obstacles they have.   359 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:10,000 And that's great. But I think. The main thing that we all say needs to do is just.   360 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:23,000 Have an ear to listen. I guess, I mean, you know, the people that are in power need to get BAME researchers into the room and listen.   361 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:33,000 They need to get BAME researches into the room and let them voice out their story.   362 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:42,000 Let them voice out their concern and just be genuine in.   363 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Listening. Be genuine in wanting to help.   364 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:55,000 Because they are in a position of power and privilege. And those are the things that, you know, I think we can start to at least see that,   365 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:02,000 you know, the people that are making these policies, the people that are.   366 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:10,000 You know. Kind of in in those positions are the ones to really stop to make that change.   367 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:17,000 To be honest. Yeah. And I think that's a really an important and powerful note to end on.   368 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:25,000 Actually, I love that phrase. Just have an ear to listen. Yeah, and actually the simplicity.   369 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:33,000 Of that as an act. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about.   370 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,000 I didn't think about just something about incredibly emotional.   371 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:43,000 I've felt it. As we've discussed it from my own experiences with my family.   372 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:58,000 But just hearing your lived experience and confronting my own biases and assumptions with that is is really important to me as an individual,   373 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:05,000 but also to everybody else working in this sector and being a human being on this earth.   374 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,000 So thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you.   375 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:18,000 Hey, thanks. Thank you, Victoria, for a difficult, emotional and truly illuminating conversation.   376 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:24,000 I'm making a commitment now to make sure that I do have an ear to listen.   377 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Like many white people, I believe in equality and condemn racism wholeheartedly.   378 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:39,000 But I am the product of white privilege and my perspective on the world is embedded with unconscious bias.   379 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:46,000 I recognise that it's not the job of black people to educate white people about racism and about the lived experience.   380 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:53,000 And so I recognise and thank Victoria for taking the time to talk to me today.   381 00:41:53,000 --> 00:42:00,000 I'm going to include some links in the show notes, to different things that Victoria and I have discussed.   382 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:06,000 But if there is anything you think is conspicuously absent from that or other stories or   383 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,000 other research about BAME experiences in higher education that you think needs adding,   384 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:18,000 please do let me know. And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me.   385 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:45,174 Next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

Episode 21 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. There's a new anime on Netflix and everyone is talking about it! Join Andy, Duncan, Jeff, and Jon as they talk about the thematic and artistic value of Beastars and struggle not to mention Zootopia too much. How many times is too many? Four? Five? Listen and decide for yourself!

Episode 21 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. There's a new anime on Netflix and everyone is talking about it! Join Andy, Duncan, Jeff, and Jon as they talk about the thematic and artistic value of Beastars and struggle not to mention Zootopia too much. How many times is too many? Four? Five? Listen and decide for yourself! The post Inbetween 21 - Herbivore Men (Beastars) first appeared on Key Frames.

John Battagliese has NO idea what he is doing with his life! So he is turning to celebrities, friends, and even his mom to ask about the hilarious, heartbreaking, and embarrassing moments that shaped them. In this first episode John is turning to his friends who are all going through their own panic spirals adjusting to life in Quarantine - whether it be family troubles, rodent infestations, or possum adoption, it's nice to know we aren't alone.

Are you sick of everyone only sharing their most perfect-filtered-stories on social media? Us too. John Battagliese has NO idea what he is doing with his life! So he is turning to celebrities, friends, and even his mom to ask about the hilarious, heartbreaking, and embarrassing moments that make us who we are. Spiraling is a podcast to remind us that we are not alone, and that there is strength in our imperfections. So join the Spiral, and remember - it's time we start sharing the unfiltered version of ourselves!

Episode 20 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. You want to hear Ben, Duncan, and Jeff talk about the "Black Rose" arc of Revolutionary Girl Utena? Deeper. Go deeper. You want to hear them talk about nostalgia, toxicity, deviance, and intimacy? You want crackpot theories and genuine insights in equal measure? I understand. Your only choice is to listen to this episode. The file you must download has been linked for you.

Episode 20 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. You want to hear Ben, Duncan, and Jeff talk about the "Black Rose" arc of Revolutionary Girl Utena? Deeper. Go deeper. You want to hear them talk about nostalgia, toxicity, deviance, and intimacy? You want crackpot theories and genuine insights in equal measure? I understand. Your only choice is to listen to this episode. The file you must download has been linked for you. The post Inbetween 20 - A Fly in Other People's Ointment (Revolutionary Girl Utena: Black Rose Saga) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 19 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Once upon a time, there were podcast hosts who were very sad, for they had finished a rewatch of the Monogatari Series. Before Ben, Duncan, and Jeff appeared a celebrated anime called Revolutionary Girl Utena, which said, "Little podcast, bearing up alone in such deep sorrow, lose not thy obsessive nitpicking and theorizing, even if thou gets famous. As a token of this day, take this Blu-ray remaster, which should guide thee to me." Was the Blu-ray the anime gave them for review? That was all good, but the podcast hosts were so impressed by Revolutionary Girl Utena that they decided to do a rewatch of it next! But was that such a good idea?

Episode 19 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Once upon a time, there were podcast hosts who were very sad, for they had finished a rewatch of the Monogatari Series. Before Ben, Duncan, and Jeff appeared a celebrated anime called Revolutionary Girl Utena, which said, "Little podcast, bearing up alone in such deep sorrow, lose not thy obsessive nitpicking and theorizing, even if thou gets famous. As a token of this day, take this Blu-ray remaster, which should guide thee to me." Was the Blu-ray the anime gave them for review? That was all good, but the podcast hosts were so impressed by Revolutionary Girl Utena that they decided to do a rewatch of it next! But was that such a good idea? The post Inbetween 19 - I Am the One Who Slaps (Revolutionary Girl Utena: Student Council Saga) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 18 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Make a joyful noise! Even though it's the holidays and they're all off celebrating, the hosts of this podcast have managed to put together a ranked list of their favorite anime about music. Why not hear Ben defend Eureka 7 as a "music anime" or Duncan give his thoughts on Andy's beloved Love Live!? There's even a coda to the endless Carole & Tuesday talk at the beginning, as the pun in the title promises. Have a wonderful year, everyone, and we'll see you in 2020! The post Inbetween 18 - A Christmas Carole & Tuesday first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 18 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Make a joyful noise! Even though it's the holidays and they're all off celebrating, the hosts of this podcast have managed to put together a ranked list of their favorite anime about music. Why not hear Ben defend Eureka 7 as a "music anime" or Duncan give his thoughts on Andy's beloved Love Live!? There's even a coda to the endless Carole & Tuesday talk at the beginning, as the pun in the title promises. Have a wonderful year, everyone, and we'll see you in 2020!

Episode 17 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. I shouldn't have wasted my butchering of Frank Sinatra's "My Way" on the description of episode 51 because this really is the end of an era. Ben and Jeff discuss the final arc of the Monogatari Series franchise and look back on six episodes of navel-gazing speculation about one of the most intellectual and perverted shows out there. Lots of important questions are asked and answered, like whether Ben is more into eyebrows or feet. Thanks for listening, and we hope you enjoyed it! The post Inbetween 17 - Be the Little Girl (Owarimonogatari & Zoku Owarimonogatari) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 17 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. I shouldn't have wasted my butchering of Frank Sinatra's "My Way" on the description of episode 51 because this really is the end of an era. Ben and Jeff discuss the final arc of the Monogatari Series franchise and look back on six episodes of navel-gazing speculation about one of the most intellectual and perverted shows out there. Lots of important questions are asked and answered, like whether Ben is more into eyebrows or feet. Thanks for listening, and we hope you enjoyed it!

Episode 16 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What, puppets? Don't worry, Jeff and Jon are here to guide you through the confusing world of Thunderbolt Fantasy, a Taiwanese show set in fantasy China with Japanese voice acting. What are everyone's names? Do they all die at the end? How is "wuxia" pronounced? All this and more may or may not be answered! The post Inbetween 16 - Sexy Gandalf and the Big Bad Sword Collector (Thunderbolt Fantasy) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 16 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What, puppets? Don't worry, Jeff and Jon are here to guide you through the confusing world of Thunderbolt Fantasy, a Taiwanese show set in fantasy China with Japanese voice acting. What are everyone's names? Do they all die at the end? How is "wuxia" pronounced? All this and more may or may not be answered!

Episode 15 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What rhymes with "summer"? That's right, "bummer"! After catching up with Jon's list of shows that he's watching for the summer 2019 anime season, Ben chats with him about their experiences with hype and disappointment as anime fans. What shows let them down? How did they let them down? Is the internet to blame? The internet's probably to blame. The post Inbetween 15 - Live Your Life Happy, Marlene Angel first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 15 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What rhymes with "summer"? That's right, "bummer"! After catching up with Jon's list of shows that he's watching for the summer 2019 anime season, Ben chats with him about their experiences with hype and disappointment as anime fans. What shows let them down? How did they let them down? Is the internet to blame? The internet's probably to blame.

This episode is the first Bechdel Theatre podcast from Edinburgh Fringe 2019!   Follow us on instagram & twitter, and read our blog for constant updates of EdFringe shows to see. If you want to support our work at Edinburgh you can still do so via our GoFundMe, Ko-Fi, and Patreon pages.   Mika Johnson is a writer and performer from Nottingham. Their show Pink Lemonade is on at Assembly Roxy at 15:45 on odd dates. Help fund Mika's Top Surgery   Teddy Lamb is a playwright and theatre-maker from Warwickshire. Their show Since U Been Gone is on at Assembly Roxy at 15:45 on even dates.   Mika and Teddy’s shows are both being co-produced by The Queer House and HighTide Theatre. The Queer House is an agency and production company for LGBTQIA+ actors, performers and theatre-makers.   Teddy’s #FeministFave is writer/podcaster Bethany Rutter and her debut novel No Big Deal.   Mika’s #FemininstFave is the book Kings Queens and Inbetweens by Tanya Boteju.   Beth’s #FeministFave is Cerys Bradley’s podcast The Coming Out Tapes.   Pippa’s #FeministFave is the Channel 4 TV show Drag SOS. ALL the recommendations featured on this episode can be found on our latest blog post: Shows to see at Edinburgh Fringe 2019.

Episode 14 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. As Von Clausewitz said, mahjong is the continuation of politics by other means. Join Jeff and Jon as Andy schools them on the centuries-old game of tiles and hands, learning a little bit about right-wing Japanese politics and Olympic skeet-shooting along the way. Is The Legend of Koizumi funny in spite of its extremely niche appeal? Is it funny because of it? Listen and find out! The post Inbetween 14 - Man, Stones, and Bamboo (The Legend of Koizumi) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 14 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. As Von Clausewitz said, mahjong is the continuation of politics by other means. Join Jeff and Jon as Andy schools them on the centuries-old game of tiles and hands, learning a little bit about right-wing Japanese politics and Olympic skeet-shooting along the way. Is The Legend of Koizumi funny in spite of its extremely niche appeal? Is it funny because of it? Listen and find out!

Episode 13 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The boys (that is, Ben and Jeff) are back in town, and that means that it's time for another round of navel-gazing about the Monogatari Series franchise! This time, it's the long-delayed movie trilogy that tells the story of Araragi's first encounter with a hot girl... and with a vampire! There's so much to cover that they miss a bunch, though. For instance, there's not a word about Kiss-Shot Acerola-Orion Heart-Under-Blade jogging her memory by digging through her literal brains, or about the recurring motif of a vampire hunter's head laughing in front of bad CGI flames. Still, they talk a lot! Maybe too much. Listen, if you dare... The post Inbetween 13 - It's Clearly Not Fine (Kizumonogatari) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 13 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The boys (that is, Ben and Jeff) are back in town, and that means that it's time for another round of navel-gazing about the Monogatari Series franchise! This time, it's the long-delayed movie trilogy that tells the story of Araragi's first encounter with a hot girl... and with a vampire! There's so much to cover that they miss a bunch, though. For instance, there's not a word about Kiss-Shot Acerola-Orion Heart-Under-Blade jogging her memory by digging through her literal brains, or about the recurring motif of a vampire hunter's head laughing in front of bad CGI flames. Still, they talk a lot! Maybe too much. Listen, if you dare...

Episode 12 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Happy holidays! We got you a Christmas episode. What, are we too late? Well, if Honey & Clover can have its Christmas episode in May, we can certainly have ours in January. Snuggle in with Ben, Andy, and Duncan as they talk about Christmas traditions in Japan, iconic Christmas episodes from anime, and what terrible shows they would give each other as part of a white elephant gift exchange.

Episode 12 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Happy holidays! We got you a Christmas episode. What, are we too late? Well, if Honey and Clover can have its Christmas episode in May, we can certainly have ours in January. Snuggle in with Ben, Andy, and Duncan as they talk about Christmas traditions in Japan, iconic Christmas episodes from anime, and what terrible shows they would give each other as part of a white elephant gift exchange. The post Inbetween 12 - A Very Thatcher Christmas first appeared on Key Frames.

Living in Inbetweens (Faith, Hope and Love) by Inspire Church Wagga

Living in Inbetweens (The Holy Spirit) by Inspire Church Wagga

Episode 11 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What is the relationship between words and reality? Do words describe a reality that exists independently of their use and meaning, or are words actually the medium through which reality is perceived and understood? For instance, if Aniplex decides to brand Hanamonogatari as a finale movie for Monogatari Series Second Season instead of an OVA epilogue for the entire franchise, does that make it so? If Ben and Jeff discuss it alongside Koyomimonogatari and Tsukimonogatari, does that make the podcast a work of media criticism? Listen to find out! The post Inbetween 11 - No Vegetables, Only Meat (Hanamonogatari, Koyomimonogatari, & Tsukimonogatari) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 11 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What is the relationship between words and reality? Do words describe a reality that exists independently of their use and meaning, or are words actually the medium through which reality is perceived and understood? For instance, if Aniplex decides to brand Hanamonogatari as a finale movie for Monogatari Series Second Season instead of an OVA epilogue for the entire franchise, does that make it so? If Ben and Jeff discuss it alongside Koyomimonogatari and Tsukimonogatari, does that make the podcast a work of media criticism? Listen to find out!

Episode 10 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What happens when an unstoppable spear meets an unbreakable shield? No, we're not talking about your favorite sports anime, we're talking about Jeff and Jon talking about the controversial Hanebado! that aired this summer. One hates it, but loves it a little, and the other loves it, but hates it a little! Who will triumph?

Episode 10 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. What happens when an unstoppable spear meets an unbreakable shield? No, we're not talking about your favorite sports anime, we're talking about Jeff and Jon talking about the controversial Hanebado! that aired this summer. One hates it, but loves it a little, and the other loves it, but hates it a little! Who will triumph? The post Inbetween 10 - The Badminton Shinsengumi (Hanebado!) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 09 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. When does an error become a mistake? When you watch another installment of the Monogatari Series franchise. That's how the saying goes, right? As they discuss Monogatari Series Second Season, Ben and Jeff even develop a lot of affection for the characters that other fans hate to love, like Tsubasa Hanekawa and Nadeko Sengoku. Listen and maybe you will, too!

Episode 09 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. When does an error become a mistake? When you watch another installment of the Monogatari Series franchise. That's how the saying goes, right? As they discuss Monogatari Series Second Season, Ben and Jeff even develop a lot of affection for the characters that other fans hate to love, like Tsubasa Hanekawa and Nadeko Sengoku. Listen and maybe you will, too! The post Inbetween 09 - What Would Hanekawa Do? (Monogatari Series Second Season) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 08 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Ben and Jeff compound their error by discussing the next two installments in the Monogatari Series franchise, Nisemonogatari and Nekomonogatari Black. Can they extract something profound from a conversation about thousand-year-old lolis, abusive families, and erotic tooth-brushing sequences? Where there's a will, there's a way. The post Inbetween 08 - Shaft Vamping (Nisemonogatari & Nekomonogatari Black) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 08 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Ben and Jeff compound their error by discussing the next two installments in the Monogatari Series franchise, Nisemonogatari and Nekomonogatari Black. Can they extract something profound from a conversation about thousand-year-old lolis, abusive families, and erotic tooth-brushing sequences? Where there's a will, there's a way.

Episode 07 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. It is fitting that Bakemonogatari, an anime that is about the self-conscious construction of identity, gets almost an hour of discussion out of Ben and Jeff. Come for the philosophy, stay for the fan service! Be prepared to stay awhile, there's a lot of fan service... The post Inbetween 07 - Good in a Bad Way (Bakemonogatari) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 07 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. It is fitting that Bakemonogatari, an anime that is about the self-conscious construction of identity, gets almost an hour of discussion out of Ben and Jeff. Come for the philosophy, stay for the fan service! Be prepared to stay awhile, there's a lot of fan service...

Episode 06 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. People are lining up to hear Andy and Midori talk about their experience at Comiket 93! Mids is full of facts about the world's largest doujinshi market! Andy is unsure whether or not to eat a bag of poop for which he paid ¥3,000! They play a recording of a drunken conversation with Andy's friend Hiroto, a Comiket veteran! Hurry, before we run out of exclamation points! The post Inbetween 06 - Queue Up! first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 06 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. People are lining up to hear Andy and Midori talk about their experience at Comiket 93! Mids is full of facts about the world's largest doujinshi market! Andy is unsure whether or not to eat a bag of poop for which he paid ¥3,000! They play a recording of a drunken conversation with Andy's friend Hiroto, a Comiket veteran! Hurry, before we run out of exclamation points!

Episode 05 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Ben and Jeff are rockin' the suburbs! This one's the mecha podcast to end all mecha podcasts. Okay, that's probably not true: Jeff is going to watch Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, and Ben may even talk himself into watching Reconguista in G. But hey, there's some good stuff here about the breakout hits of Yoshiyuki Tomino's early career. The post Inbetween 05 - Like Hideaki Anno Did first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 05 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Ben and Jeff are rockin' the suburbs! This one's the mecha podcast to end all mecha podcasts. Okay, that's probably not true: Jeff is going to watch Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, and Ben may even talk himself into watching Reconguista in G. But hey, there's some good stuff here about the breakout hits of Yoshiyuki Tomino's early career.

Episode 04 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The holidays have Ben, Andy, and Jon hungry for anime and thirsty for manga! After sampling Food Wars! and then tearing into Osake wa Fuufu ni Natte Kara, they chew through all the other food and drink anime that they can find. Andy has another terrible game to play, too! The post Inbetween 04 - Have Powers, Level Up, Make Friends first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 04 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The holidays have Ben, Andy, and Jon hungry for anime and thirsty for manga! After sampling Food Wars! and then tearing into Osake wa Fuufu ni Natte Kara, they chew through all the other food and drink anime that they can find. Andy has another terrible game to play, too!

We're making this up as we go along, but here's an idea we like. How about every guest driven episode is followed up with an episode about putting our guest's advice into action? We're calling these episodes The Inbetweens. Episode 2 is the first and it digs into Toby Barlow's early creative process which he refers to as "Making the Stock." The episode also proves the age old creative maxim - the work is never done - as we've changed the name of the podcast from Grab the Lightening to The Troublemakers. A nod to the great Chiat/Day Apple commercial Think Different along with the observation that to be truly creative, you can't be afraid to break the rules. SHOW NOTES David's favorite inspirational site (with a less than inspirational name) - designspiration.net A Technique for Producing Ideas by James Webb Young Ask us a question on Twitter or Instagram. Beatroublemaker.com

Episode 03 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The current state of anime podcasts is unsustainable. On the one hand are podcasts that cater to the fandom by obsessing over references, moe, and fan service without truly engaging in the artistic and thematic content of the medium. On the other are podcasts that cater to the industry with production figures and pedigree, informative to other insiders but inaccessible to the average listener. What is necessary, now more than ever in this new age of internet content, is a podcast that provides a disruptive median that realigns the praxis of anime discourse online into an uncompromised synthesis of critical superego and enthusiast id. That podcast will be our discussion of Patlabor 2: the Movie. Join the revolution with Ben, Andy, Duncan, and Jeff!

Episode 03 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. The current state of anime podcasts is unsustainable. On the one hand are podcasts that cater to the fandom by obsessing over references, moe, and fan service without truly engaging in the artistic and thematic content of the medium. On the other are podcasts that cater to the industry with production figures and pedigree, informative to other insiders but inaccessible to the average listener. What is necessary, now more than ever in this new age of internet content, is a podcast that provides a disruptive median that realigns the praxis of anime discourse online into an uncompromised synthesis of critical superego and enthusiast id. That podcast will be our discussion of Patlabor 2: the Movie. Join the revolution with Ben, Andy, Duncan, and Jeff! The post Inbetween 03 - Patlabor Day (Patlabor 2: the Movie) first appeared on Key Frames.

Episode 02 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. A show about girls working at a software company. Is that Non Non Biyori? A show about the discrimination that monster girls face. Is that Non Non Biyori? A show about a high school gaming club. Is THAT Non Non Biyori? Andy and Mids roam far and wide before arriving at their destination: the remake of Mahoujin Guru Guru, an anime from Mids' childhood. It's not Non Non Biyori, but it's close.

Episode 01 of Key Frames: Inbetweens, a mini-podcast about anime. Distressed by our missing editor, we wander the library of podcast future and podcast past. Dusty volumes left, dusty volumes right... but what's this? An ancient episode, lost to the ages, about an anime that's been running for ages? Why, brush it off and throw it onto the feed, we say! Join Andy and Jon for a surprisingly joyous discussion of anime and manga phenomenon One Piece.

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Die Porträtserie Inbetweens beschäftigt sich mit der intensiven und spannungsvollen Zwischenwelt von Jugendlichen. Bei Jugendlichen entwickeln sich Körper, Psyche und Verstand in Abhängigkeit von der eigenen Erfahrung und der Umwelt, und sie tun dies unterschiedlich schnell. Während Jugendliche körperlich und intellektuell Erwachsenen ähnlich, manchmal sogar überlegen sein können, hinken die Psyche und die Selbsteinschätzung oft hinterher. Andererseits aber täuschen kindliches Aussehen und Gebärden und verdecken die psychische und intellektuelle Reife einer Person. Diesem Wechselspiel zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem widmet sich die Fotografin in ihrer Arbeit. Raphaela Seiferts seriell konzipierte Arbeit ist im Studio entstanden und zeigt die isolierten Protagonisten vor dem neutralen und weißen Hintergrund des Studios. Dadurch wird die Konzentration des Betrachters ausschließlich auf das Aussehen, die Gestik und die Mimik der dargestellten Person gelenkt. Ein von den Jugendlichen selbst gewählter, im Bild inszenierter Gegenstand visualisiert symbolisch das Gleiten der Jugendlichen von einem Zeit- und Bewusstseinszustand in einen anderen und schafft zugleich eine Verbindung und einen Vergleich zwischen den einzelnen Personen. Raphaela Seifert studierte an der FH Vorarlberg. 2009 entstand die Arbeit „Inbetweens“ als Abschlussarbeit im Bachelor-Studium Mediengestaltung. Seither arbeitet sie freiberuflich als Fotografin und Mediengestalterin.